CORNELL UNIVERSITY LIBRARY NEW YORK STATE SCHOOL OF INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR RELATIONS Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924002217069 ARBITRATION Of the controversy between The Brotherhood of Locomotive engineers and ¥he- following eastern railroads,: Baltimore & Ohio ^ 7 Bessemer & Lake Erie / Boston & Albany V Boston & Maine / 3 Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh S Buffalo & Susquehanna / !>uisville %j Chicago, Terre Haute & Southeastern / /Chicago, Indiana & Southern 1L> Cincinnati Northern / Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton S~ Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Q Coal & Coke / Delaware & Hudson y Delaware, Lackawanna & Western 1-3 Detroit, Toledo & Ironton / vDunkirk, Allegheny Valley & Pittsburgh * >>• Dayton & Union X Erie I Lake Erie & Western H Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling / Lake Shore & Michigan Southern / / Lehigh Valley Q Long Island / Maine Central *f Michigan Central S ~ New York Central & Hudson River / ° New York, Chicago & St. Louis -3 New York, New Haven & Hartford Q New York, Ontario & Western t New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk / New York, Susquehanna & Western 2j ^ >^-New Jersey & New York x Pennsylvania Lines — East 3 f Pennsylvania Lines — West &3 Pere Marquette / Pittsburgh & Lake Erie / Reading System & d Toledo & Ohio Central & Toledo, St. Louis & Western *1 Vandalia Lines 3 Western Maryland %> Wheeling & Lake Erie / nWest Side Belt Line X ■x, Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal X Zanesville & Western / Pursuant to an agreement dated April 30, 1912. New York, April 30th, 1912. ARBITRATION AGREEMENT. "The parties to the pending controversy between the East- ern Railroads, a list of which is hereto annexed, and the Broth- erhood of Locomotive Engineers hereby mutually agree as follows : "That the matters in dispute be submitted to a Board of Arbitration of seven members to be selected and appointed in the following manner : Each of said parties shall promptly name one member of said Board and notify the other party accord- ingly. The two thus chosen shall meet without delay, and at such time and place as they may arrange, and endeavor in good faith to agree upon the remaining members of said Board. But in case they shall fail to agree upon all or any of such other members within fifteen days after their first meeting for that purpose, then such other members, or so many of them as have not been agreed upon, shall be named and appointed by The Chief Justice of the United States, the Presiding Judge of the Commerce Court and the United States Commissioner of Labor acting together. ' ' The Board so constituted shall meet as soon as practicable after the membership thereof has been completed, and at such time and place as they may agree upon, and take up and con- clude the hearing of the parties and make their decision or award without unnecessary delay. ' ' The matters in dispute to be submitted to said Board for determination are the requests of the Engineers, which have heretofore been submitted to said roads and refused by them, and a copy of which is annexed hereto and made a part hereof. "A majority of the members of said Board shall be com- petent to make a valid and binding decision or award, and each of said parties hereby pledges itself to accept and abide by the decision or award made, according to its terms and intent for the period of one year from its effective date and thereafter subject to the usual thirty days' notice. "The Board shall fix the date when its decision or award shall take effect, and may make the same retroactive if it shall seem just and proper. "The necessary expenses of the Board, including the com- pensation and expenses of its members, stenographers' fees and other joint expenses shall be divided equally between the parties and one-half thereof paid by each of them. "Signed at the City of New York, this 30th day of April, 1912. For the Engineers. For the Railroads. Warren S. Stone J. C. Stuart, Chairman M. W. Cadle H. J. Horn J. M. Watson Gr. L. Peck H. A. Kelly A. H. Smith C. K. Mitchell B. A. Worthington Sub-Committee >> Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York. July 15, 1912. 1.30 P. M. Before : Oscar S. Straus, Chairman. Charles B. Van Hise, Frederick N. Judson, Otto M. Eidlitz Aleert Shaw, P. H. Morrissey, Daniel Willard, Arbitrators. Appearances : For the Engineers: Warren S. Stone, and M. W. Cadle, For the Bailroads: William M. Duncan, B. A. WORTHINGTON, 0. E. BUTTERFIELD, Francis I. Gowen, George F. Brownell, and T. M. Kirby. The Chairman : Gentlemen, the Board that has been selected to arbitrate this question of the railroad engineers and the rail- roads if here, and this being the opening session, we will proceed with the work that is before us. I would like to know, so we can record it upon the minutes, What representatives there are here, who will take part in con- ducting these proceedings on the part of the Engineers, and on the part of the Bailroads. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, answering for the Engineers myself.. W. S. Stone, and Mr. M. W. Cadle will present our case. We have, however, a number of witnesses that we should like (to testify before this Commission but we two will present the case. The Chairman: Yourself and Mr. Cadle? Mr. Stone: Myself and Mr. Cadle, Assistant Grand Chief. The Chairman: And, on the part of the railroads? Mr. Duncan : I appear on behalf of the Conference Commit- tee of Managers, William M. Duncan. That Committee is rep- resented, officially, by B. A. Worthington, of the sub-Committee of the General Managers. Associated with me there will be Mr. Butterfield, of the New York Central Lines, Mr. Gowen, of the Pennsylvania Eailroad Company, and Mr. Brownell, of the Erie,. md Mr. T. M. Kirby. The Chairman : I suppose the Engineers probably had better take the affirmative, so to speak, of the questions that are to be presented ; and, therefore, Mr. Stone had better begin, if that is agreeable. Mr. Stone: That is entirely satisfactory. I would like to ask for information, Mr. Chairman, as to the witnesses presented by the other side, will I have the privilege to cross examine? The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Stone : I would also like to ask if you have copies of the Articles that are to be arbitrated, if all have been furnished with them? The Chairman : I do not know whether all have been or not. Mr. Stone : If not, I have a number of printed copies here, and I should be glad to furnish them, if you care for them. The Chairman : We would be very glad to have them. Mr. Stone: I would like to call your attention, Mr. Chair- man, to a typographical error that I only discovered after the Articles had been printed. In the Articles on freight rates, in the next to the last paragraph, it reads as follows : "Engineers will be paid at overtime rates for all time over fifteen hours held away from other than their home terminal. ' ' That should read "held at other than their home terminal." Mr. Van Hise: "At" instead of the words "away from." Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. This correction was made before the Conference Committee of Managers, and shows in the stenogra- phic notes, and no objection was offered on the other side. Mr. Duncan : We concede that. < The Chairman : That is agreed to. ARTICLES EASTERN CONCERTED MOVEMENT Presented March 14, 1912. Passenger Rates Engines with cylinders of 20 inches or less in diameter $4.40 per 100 miles or less. Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter $4.60 per 100 miles or less. Miles made in excess of 100 pro rata. Overtime in through passenger service to be computed on a basis of 20 miles per hour. Overtime will be paid for at 70 cent per hour. Electric Service Whenever electric service is installed or now in operation locomotive engineers will take the positions on electric locomo- tives or multiple unit trains under the prevailing schedules gov- erning rates of pay and conditions in steam service. Any change from steam to electricity or other motive power in any form at any point on the system such power will be manned by en- gineers and paid according to the service for the territory af- fected, or where electric or multiple unit trains enter upon steam tracks or tracks formerly operated by steam or where trackage Hghts are leased to holding companies they shall be operated by engineers operating steam trains on said tracks. Freight Rates Engines with cylinders of 20 inches in diameter or less, $5.25. Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter and less than 24 inches in diameter, $5.50. Engines with cylinders 24 inches in diameter and over, ex- cept Mallets, $5.75. Mallet type of engine, $7.00. One hundred (100) miles or less, ten (10) hours or less to constitute a day's work. All over one hundred (100) miles to be paid pro rata. Overtime to be computed on a basis of ten (10) miles per hour, and paid for pro rata. Through freight rates to apply to all mine runs, work, wreck, pusher or helper, milk, roustabout and circus trains, according to class of engines. Overtime to be computed on minute basis. Engineers will be paid at overtime rate for all time over 15 hours held at other than their home terminal. Twenty •five cents (25c.) per 100 miles or less additional to be added to through freight rates for local freight service ac- cording to class of engines. Switching Ser\tce Rates for engines in switching service $4.50 per day. Ten (10) hours or less to constitute a day's work. All over ten (10) hours to be paid for pro rata. Overtime to be computed on minute basis. Belt Line Service Engineers in belt line service will be paid $5.00 per day, ten (10) hours or less to constitute a day. All over ten (10) hours 50 i cents per hour. Overtime to be computed on minute basis. Engineers of single-crewed yard and belt line engines will report for duty at the appointed time and will receive one-half hour's pay in addition to the regular day's pay for reporting 30 minutes in advance of the commencement of the day's work. In case of double-crewed engines, if engineers do not relievo each other at the appointed time and the engineer of the next crew is required to prepare his engine 30 minutes' pay will be allowed for same. Beginning and Ending of a Day. In all classes of road service an engineer's time will com- mence 30 minutes before leaving roundhouse or designated track and will conclude at the time the engine is placed on the designated track or relieved by hostler at terminal. Initial Terminal Delay When delayed within the terminal. as much as one hour be- yond the time set to leave, engineers will be paid one hour's overtime at overtime rates, according to class of engine. One hour and 30 minutes to constitute two hours, etc. If road overtime is made on same trip initial overtime will be deducted. Final Terminal Delay Final terminal delay will be paid for at the end of the trip when delayed more than 30 minutes between yard limit boards governing yard to which train is to be delivered and the point of final relief, and to be paid for at the overtime rate according to class of engine on the minute basis. Hours of Service Law. Amendment of Section E of the Application of the Sixteen Hour Law. Engineers in train service tied up under the law will be paid continuous time from initial point to tie-up point. When they resume duty on continuous trip they will be paid from the tie-up point to the next tie-up point, or to the terminal on the basis of a minimum day. It is understood that this does not permit running engines through terminals or around other crew at terminals unless such practice is permitted under the pay schedule. It is understood that existing rates of pay or better work- ing conditions shall not be reduced by the rates or rules hereby agreed upon nor shall General Committees of Adjustment be debarred from taking up with their respective managers mat- ters not decided at this conference. Mr. Stone: In presenting our case before this honorable Board of Arbitration, it might be well to explain the causes which led up to the arbitration of these great questions. The position and policy of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engi- neers is too well known and too well established, to need any comment at this time. For many years the Managers of these roads represented here have, through their Committee, formu- lated their agreements and fixed rates of pay and working con- ditions with their respective managements. There were almost as many different rates of pay as there were roads. With many, where the managers were more liberal than others, the Commit- tee succeeded in obtaining much better wages and better work- ing conditions than perhaps their nearest competitor. There was always more or less friction and constant attempts to better their conditions, and the results varied according to the liberality of the management and the persistence and strength of the men. The whole trend of the modern system of railroad opera- tion is organization and standardization. We have both presi- dents' and managers' associations, besides numerous other associations of operating officials. We have standard systems of accounting, of operation, of equipment, and standardization, and almost eveiy other detail, including wages, except those of the locomotive engineers. The Engineers came to realize that the only way to over- come many of the abuses they were subject to, and to bring their wages and working conditions up to standard was by a consoli- dated movement of all the lines in the eastern territory. In January, 1912, necessary steps were taken to formulate requests for standard rates of pay and working conditions, for the lines represented. These requests were presented to the operating officials of all the road involved on the same date, and the neces- sary thiity days' notice given to reopen many of the agreements on the different lines. At the same time, the question was taken up with the Chairman of the Managers' Association, and a re- quest made that a Conference Committee be selected from the Managers' Association, with full power to handle the questions for all roads represented. This request was granted, and a Committee of twelve officials selected with full authority to rep- resent the fifty-one roads. The first meeting was held on March 14th, at the Engineering Society Building, in New York. We presented our case on that date, and on the following day. At the close of the meeting on the afternoon of the 15th, the Chair- man, Mr. Stuart, notified us that it would be necessary for the Conference Committee of Managers to have further time to pro- cure data. Late that evening we received notice that they could not meet us until the 25th. On that date we again met the Con- ference Committee and after a few minutes' discussion, we were handed a letter giving the decision of the Conference Committee, wherein they notified us our proposition was declined as a whole. We refused to accept such a decision as the settlement of the case. The entire question was submitted to a strike vote of the men on the lines involved, and, by a vote of 93.3 per cent, they voted to leave the service of the companies, if necessary, rather 10 than accept the decision of the Conference Committee of Managers. The Chairman : May I ask a question, if I do not interrupt you? Mr. Stone : Certainly ; that is all right. The Chairman : What does that mean, 93.3 per cent. ? Mr. Stone : Out of the entire number of engineers voting. The Chairman: I mean how many men does that mean, to get an idea, about? Mr. Stone : About 29.670 ; I am just speaking The Chairman: What is the whole number? Mr. Stone: The whole number voting is 29,670. The Chairman: And 93.3 per cent — Mr. Stone: 93.3 per cent, voted to strike. The public was kept in close touch with the situation through the columns of the daily press, and when the news went out that all negotiations had been broken off, and a strike was inevitable unless some so- lution could be found, all kinds of pressure was brought to bear on both parties to prevent what would have been a national calamity. Honorable Martin A. Knapp, Presiding Judge of the United States Court of Commerce and Hon. Charles P. Neill, United States Commissioner of Labor, came to New York, and addressed a joint letter to both parties to the controversy, of- fering their services, under the Erdman Act. We accepted their offer, because we believed we could win our case before any tribunal on earth, and because we stand second to none in our duty as American citizens, and we believe it to be our duty as such to accept any honorable means of settlement that would furnish a solution of the questions involved and would prevent the stoppage of the wheels of commerce, with its attendant un- told loss and suffering. After several days' conference, the terms of arbitration were agreed upon, and the work of selecting the arbitrators was taken up. After many weeks the Board has been selected, and I might add, if you will pardon me the expression, that the en- tire make-up of the Board is satisfactory to us. This brings us to the presentation of our case. In present- ing our case, before going into detail on each separate request I desire briefly to outline in a general way why we make this 11 request, and "why we believe the men we represent are entitled to even more than we are asking. We have not come here to give away anything we have. We not only want to keep all that we have, but we believe that we are entitled to the increase we ask for, to go with it. We do not come before this Court to quibble to split hairs on technicalities. We expect to meet all these propositions in a spirit of equity and fair dealing. We are not here to present rumors or idle theories. We are here to present absolute facts. We have nothing to conceal. We court the fullest investigation, and we stand prepared to prove every statement we make. We desire and hope that you, who are invested with the final decision of these great questions, will give that decision on the broadest possible lines. These ques- tions are of so vital importance, that I doubt if any like body of men have ever before, in the world's history, been called upon to decide questions of graver importance or more far reaching effect. It is no idle dream when I say that the eyes of Labor and Capital, not only in the territory affected, but in the entire civilized world, are waiting, watching the outcome of your de- liberations. Upon the decision of these questions before you, depends, in a large measure, whether the dawn of a new era is at hand, or whether there will be a step backwards. We ask you that in reaching your final decision, you keep before you the standard of requirement and efficiency demanded of these skilful employees who, by the faithful performance of those requirements and their loyalty to duty, make possible the modern transportation demanded by the American people of to-day. We do not base these claims for increased compensation wholly upon the increased cost of living, as so many do, for two reasons : One is that the cost of living is largely a question of the standard of living, and, beyond a question of mere ex- istence, is something each individual must decide for himself. The other reason is, there are so many elements that enter into the fixing of the rate of the wage for an engineer, that must, in all fairness, be given far more consideration. We desire to present our requests for an increase and a standard rate, for the following reasons: First, the responsibility; With all due respect to the other employes of these great railroads, and the officials employed on these great systems, it is the engineer who is the responsible 12 man, the only man who, by his skill and ability, makes it possi- ble for a railroad to earn revenue and pay dividends. You can have the finest railroad in the world, equipped with the best that money can buy, rock ballast, the best of cross ties and tie plates, 100 pound steel, automatic signals, inter- locking devices at all crossings, every known safety device, the best of terminal facilities, modern equipment of the very latest design, both cars and locomotives, the road officered by compe- tent officials who know their business thoroughly, every other employe performing every other duty required of him, yet that railroad does not earn one penny until the engineer gets up on the engine and opens the throttle and starts the ponderous ma- chine and moves the thousands of tons of freight, the hundreds of passengers to their destinations. So he is the man who car- ries the load and responsibility. That responsibility is increasing each year ; each year traf- fic becomes heavier and more congested; each year the time of limited trains become faster; each year the network of sig- nals increases in number; each year the size of engines and tonnage on trains increases in freight service; each year the public demands better service ; each year more is required of the engineer in charge of the locomotive; each year examinations become more strict; each year discipline becomes more rigid. There never was a time in the history of the railroad world when as much was being taken out of the individual engineer as now. Second, we ask these requests on account of the skill and effi- ciency required. Few realize the hard years of toil and train- ing it takes, and the many examinations required of the modern engineer of today. The boy comes from the farm, probably ; if not, from wher- ever they can get him, and enters the service of the company. He must be physically perfect in order to stand the heavy toil demanded of him; lungs and heart action, eyesight and hearing have to be perfect; he must not weigh less than 145 pounds; he must be between the minimum and maximum height pre- scribed ; he must not be beyond a certain age. And on many of our roads the physical examination is more rigid than the United States Government requires for men enlisting in the United States Army or Navy. 13 The Chairman: May I just interrupt a minute? Mr. Stone: Certainly. The Chairman: Who makes those examinations and who makes those requirements? Mr. Stone: The railroad operating officials, generally the Railroad Surgeon's Association. He fulfills these requirements and enters the service per- haps as a fireman on freight, and shovels from 10 to 30 tons of coal per trip, shovels it into a fire box heated to hundreds of degrees of temperature, looking into this white heated furnace to see where to place each shovelful of coal, the intense heat blind- ing his eyesight and blistering his skin on the left side, while the right side of his body is perhaps exposed to a wind cutting through the cab and to weather anywhere from 100 degreej above to 30 below zero. If he survives this for ayfJaaHSThe is given his first examination, and he must pass 85 per cent, of the questions asked, on the rating. He continues for another year and is given his second examination and must pass 85 per cent, of the questions asked for a rating. Then another year's ser- vice, and he is given his third and last examination, also exam- ined on air brakes and machinery by the motive power depart- ment and book of rules and train orders and signal rules by the transportation department, and he must pass 85 per cent, on his rating. Mr. Judson : Are these standards uniform on all the roads ? Mr. Stone: Practically so. There are some slight differ- ences, but not many. If he passes all on this he is then sent to the company's surgeon for another physical examination, also eyesight and hearing, color perception, etc. If he passes he is given a certi- fication of qualification and is available for service as an en- gineer. I might add that in the third year's examination the rec- ords of some of our best railroads show that 15 per cent, of the firemen are rejected on account of defective eyesight, due to the intense heat striking them an the face, and to looking into the white heated firebox to see where to place the coal. If he passes he is given a certification of a qualification and is qualified for service as engiener. He may run extra trips, as fireman, for perhaps two to five years before being assigned to 14 regular service as an engineer. During this entire period there has been a gradual sifting out process. Many quit because physically unable to stand the strain, others are rejected because of the injured eyesight from the intense glare of the heat. From the very best data obtainable the records show that out of every 100 men who start as firemen only "99 become engineers. JJ After the fireman becomes an engineer he is re-examined on rules, air brakes, block signals, etc., every two or three years, some roads two years, some three. If he fails to pass 85 per icent. of the questions on his rating he is taken out of service until he can pass them. In addition he has to undergo a physi- cal re-examination every two or three years. The terrific strain on engineers on fast trains and the requirements in regard to signals, no one can realize who has not had the experience. On many of the roads the block signals are only a mile apart and, in many cases, much closer together. At large terminals it is a perfect network of signals. Including all signals it means at least two signals to the mile, in many places much more; this means that an engineer on one of our fast limited trains must locate, in all kinds of weather, and read correctly a signal every 20 or 25 seconds, besides attending to the many other duties re- quired of him. Third, we ask an increase on account of the hazards of the profession. The profession of locomotive engineer is classed as extra hazardous. None of the old line insurance companies care to (insure him at all, and if they do insure him charge an extra premium. There are no figures, compiled by the Interstate Commerce Commission, showing the number of engineers killed and crippled each year ; it classes all the employes in train service being grouped together, so we have compiled the figures from ■our own insurance department. You can rely upon their being absolutely accurate, and I think that I should offer a word of explanation. We have our own insurance and we pay for the full face of the policy for death, either natural or accidental, for the loss of a hand at or above the wrist, for the loss of a foot at, or above 15 the ankle joint, or for the total and permanent loss of one or both eyes. It would be possible for a man to be injured so as to be taken out of the service and yet not receive his insurance. For example, a man might have an injury to his back, he might have a physical breakdown and be totally disabled, but yet he- would not draw his insurance, under the qualifications. The Organization, however, I might add, takes care of him, and it "is with a feeling of pride that I say to you that the Brother- hood of Locomotive Engineers has not a single member that is an object of charity, that is in any county or state institution, except seven, and they are violently insane and we have no way of taking care of them. The Chairman: How large is the membership of that Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers ? Mr. Stone: 72,511 on the first of this month; 93 per cent, of the locomotive engineers employed on the North American Continent. Mr. Morrissey: What percentage of the membership is in the United States? Mr. Stone: We have 530 members in Mexico and 3,740 members in Canada. The res* are in the United States. I make that explanation before reading the figures because these figures do not show the total number of men who through accident are taken from service. The Chairman: This insurance you speak of, is not con- ducted by your own organization? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir, our own insurance ; at the present time, we are carrying one hundred and thirty millions of insurance for our members. We have paid out a little over twenty-nine millions, to the first of this year. The Chairman: That is, for the whole country? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman: Do you carry that exclusively, or is that re-insurance? Mr. Stone : Insurance that we carry ourselves, and we give our insurance to our men absolutely at cost. There is no objection to stating to you the cost; the figures for 17 years show a cost of $17.78 per thousand, a record any organization can feel proud of, when you take into consideration the class of policies 16 we write. You cannot get an old line company to write a policy for three times the amount. Mr. Judson: What is that, a death payment? Mr. Stone: $1,500 or $3,000, or $4,500, whether three or one policy is carried; he must carry one. From January 1st, 1897, to December 31st, 1911, the records of our organization .are as follows: Deaths, natural causes 4,636 Killed 2,550 Blind 407 It is safe to say that 95 per cent of these have lost their eyesight through the bursting of a water glass, a lubricator glass, or some object flying up and striking them along the track. (Eeading.) Amputations, hand or foot. . . . - 370 The Chairman: For what period is that? Mr. Stone: January 1st, 1897, to December 31st, 1911, 13 years. The Chairman: These figures cover that period? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. (Eeading.) Suicide 91 Total 8,054 I desire to call your particular attention to one item, — suicides, 91. If you could only trace back and read the history of each, you would find, in nearly every case, that he broke down under the tremendous strain, a nervous wreck, and then committed suicide. But, then these figures sink into insigni- ficance when compared with those that follow. Insurance in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers is compulsory; a member must take out and carry an insurance policy, and from the time the policy is issued until we pay the policy, either to him or to his beneficiaries, the average insurance life is 11 years and 7 days. The Chairman: How does that average of your insurance compare with Mr. Stone : That is not the average age 17 The Chairman: How does the average duration of your insurance compare with tEe average duration of the general insurance of the ordinary insurance companies? Mr. Stone: I don't know. I don't know that there is an average term of life made up. If so, I have never seen the figures. The Chairman: Yes, I know there is. Mr. Stone: I have never seen it. Eleven years and seven days; all a man has to sell is his labor; it is his whole stock in trade, and when the time comes that he has no more labor to sell, no one wants him, no one has any place for him, and all these 8,054 men had to sell was 11 years and 7 days. With the short time that they had to sell, do you wonder he demands more than a living wage? For the few years of labor he has to sell, he must not only earn a livelihood, but he must, of neces- sity, lay up enough to keep his family from want after the wage-earner has either been killed or crippled and thrown out on the stock pile of commercial industry, as so much worn out junk. In addition to loss of life, he has the further hazard of loss of position. We have spoken of the rigid discipline in force to-day on the different roads. When God created man, in his own image, he endowed him with a mind to act for himself. No one can guarantee that a man will continue to perform the same duty in exactly the same way day in and day out, year in and year out, like a machine, so we have a human machine to deal with; yet the same service is required of locomotive engineers, not only every day, but every minute of every day when he is on duty. No matter what the conditions of weather may be, whether it is stifling heat, or bitter cold, or if there is a fog as thick as wool, the same requirements are demanded, and no excuse is accepted for failure, no matter what the physical con- dition of the man may be. The men in the fast passenger service are under a strain that can hardly be estimated, yet it is the men with the heavy tonnage train of freight, toiling through the long hours that are up against the hardest proposition. A few years ago we had a law enacted, limiting the hours of service that could be required of men in the transportation service. It provides that an engineer could not be kept on duty more 18 than 16 hours continuously, or more than 16 hours in the aggre- gate. Mr. Judson: That is a federal law! Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. I have had prepared, from the rec- ords on file in the office of the Interstate Commerce Commission at Washington, — the records of ten roads, for a period of nine months, July 1st, 1911 to March 31st, 1912—1 take it for granted that these figures are correct, for they are furnished by the railroads themselves, under oath. These roads, .whose records are shown here, are no worse or better than others in this terri- tory, and no doubt the record of the others is just as bad. The request was made for a statement of ten trunk lines, and they were selected at random. In many of our states, we have humane rules, passed by the different states, governing the shipment of live stock, and providing that not to exceed each 28 hours they must be unloaded and rested and watered and fed. Failure to do so is punishable by a heavy fine. If you undertake to work any beast of burden excessive hours, the Humane So- ciety will have you arrested and fined. Yet this record, that we have had compared from the records on file in the Office of the Interstate Commerce Commission, at Washington, speak in louder tones than mine, and speaks for itself — 20 and 30 hours on duty is common, 30 to 40 hours on duty, not so many, but not unusual, but when you read of engineers on duty 40, 50, 60, 70, or even 73 to 79 hours, in consecutive service, then, it becomes criminal. Do you think that passengers on these lim- ited trains, sleeping in fancied security, would sleep so soundly if they knew that on ahead, somewhere on the same track, was an engineer dead on his feet, struggling to keep awake and pull his heavy tonnage train to get in out of the way and clear for the Limited? I think not. No matter how conscientious that engineer may be, no matter how loyal he may be to his duty, there comes a time when his poor, tired, overworked brain fails to act, yet, just as much is required the last hour as the first, and no excuse is taken for failure. The picture is not over- drawn. Mr. Judson: Do you mean that such hours are now re- quired? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. 19 Mr. Judson: Of engineers? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, and I have the documents to prove it. Mr. Butterfield: I suppose, you mean, in exceptional cases — they are not considered violations of the law ; the excuse they give is considered a good excuse? Mr. Stone: Yes, unfortunately, some companies have good excuses, but I would not consider 29,000 cases on 10 roads in nine months are exceptional. Mr. Butterfield: You mean they are so regarded by the Commission? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Butterfield: I thought that there was a fair statement to be made in that connection. . Mr. Stone : The record is here ; it will speak for itself, when we get to it. The picture is not overdrawn, it is not only a crime against the men, it is a crime against humanity, as a whole, and, if the public only knew the true facts, they would not tolerate it for a single day. A man spends the best part of his life fitting himself for the position of engineer, and for some slight mistake, years of perfect service are forgotten and he is discharged. If his hair has turned slightly gray, there is no need of starting out to look for a job, as no one wants him. It has generally been conceded that a man of middle life is more mature in his judg- ment and, after years of experience, a man should be a more valuable man to the company that employs him than ever be- fore. Many of the roads never employ an engineer; they pro- mote all their engineers from firemen, yet these same roads do not hesitate to discharge a man, for some slight thing, and turn him loose to wander over the country looking for a job. On 52 per cent, of the roads the age limit is 45 years, the rest are 40 years, except three, where the limit is 38 years. If you are beyond that age, you need not apply for that position, they do not want you as a locomotive engineer. The Chairman : You mean by that the age limit for employ- ing the man? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman: It is not the limit for retaining his ser- vices? Mr. Stone: No, sir; but after a man gets by that he has the 20 hazard of losing employment, through some slight mistake; he is disciplined and discharged, and, after spending the best years of his life fitting himself for this vocation, it is impossible for him to obtain employment elsewhere. If he is fortunate and nothing happens, if he never makes any mistakes, he can prob- ably stay in the service until he is 65 or 70 years old, on some roads, unless he gets killed or breaks down under the strain, or his eyes do not go back on him, or something. Mr. Judson: There are a number of engineers who are 65 or 70 years old, employed on the roads in this country, are there not? Mr. Stone : Not very many. Mr. Judson: Some? Mr. Stone : Yes, but they are the exception and not the rule. On 52 per cent, of the roads, the age limit is 45 years, on the rest the age limit is 40 years, except on three, where the age limit is 38 years, and there are only six roads in the United States that have no age limit, or, at least, do not enforce an age limit in their employment of engineers. If you are beyond that age, you need not apply for a position, they do not want you. So, the locomotive engineer not only has the hazard con- stantly confronting him of losing his position and of being de- prived of earning his livelihood, after spending the best part of his life fitting himself for this vocation — Mr. Judson: Is that age limit extended to other employes also? Mr. Stone : I thing, for other employes, it is perhaps lower than that. I know it is on some roads, at least. For example, a fireman could not obtain employment if he had passed 30. We ask for these increases on the value of the services, the earning power, of the engineers. It is true the rate of pay per mile, or trip is more today than it was ten years ago, but not very much. The increase in wages does not begin to com- pare with the increased duties of the engineer, nor with the value of the work he has to perform. There never was a time- when as much was to be taken out of the individual man as now. Neither have the wages of the engineers been increased in pro- portion to other classes of employes in train service. Neither have the wages of the engineers kept pace with the increase in other classes of labor. 21 Even with the slight increases granted in the past few years,, with perhaps some few exceptional cases, the average yearly wage with the increase added, does not amount to more than his wages were a few years ago. In other words, the longer hours and heavy tonnage trains on freight make it impossible for him to make as many miles and trips as he formerly made per year. He lays off more, because he requires more rest on account of the long hours on the road, and the heavy strains of the demand made upon him, and worst of all, he breaks down and goes to' the scrap pile at an age when he used to be at his best. Take the statements of the Interstate Commerce Commis- sion in The Reports of Statistics of Railways for the years 1901 to 1910 inclusive; they show that in groups 1, 2 and 3, which cover the territory of the roads involved here, in the year 1901, the number of tons of freight carried one mile was 75,561,- 728,975. In the year 1910, 125,024,755,592, an increase during the ten years of 49,463,026,617 tons, or 65.45 per cent, increase in ten years. Passenger traffic for the same period shows as follows : In the year 1901, the number of passengers carried one mile was 9,150,180,139. In the year 1910, 14,399,925,436, an increase during the ten years of 5,249,745,297 passengers, an increase of 57.37 per cent. In 1901, there were employed on the lines represented by groups 1, 2, and 3, 21,971 engineers. In 1910, with the great increase shown in both freight and passengers, there were 29,684, an increase of 7,113 engineers, or 32.37 per cent ; clearly showing the percentage increase in number of engineers did not keep pace with the percentage increase in both passenger and freight traffic. However, this is not all that is shown by the figures. In 1908 we had a panic, whether it was real or manufac- tured has no particular bearing on the case here ; it was at least real in so far as the railroads and the employees were con- cerned, and the order of retrenchment was passed down the line. Then, for the first time in the history of the railroad world, was the last pound of flesh taken by many operating of- ficials. The tonnage system was put into effect, with its at- tendant evils, such as longer hours and men worked beyond the 22 limit of human endurance. In order to meet the demands of the powers that be, equipment bonds were issued and heavier lo- comotives purchased, so that the average train haul and amount of work secured from each engineer may be increased. A further analysis of the figures shows, in 1908, just before the panic, there were 30,511 engineers employed in the territory represented by groups 1, 2, and 3. In the year 1910 there were .29,684, a decrease of 4.9 per cent., regardless of the fact that •during the same period there had been an increase, in the num- ber of tons carried one mile, from 117,961,319,632 tons to 125,024,755,529 tons (a total increase of 8,063,435,897 tons, or '6.75 per cent, increase ; the heaviest increase of tonnage coming in group 3, where it shows an increase of 8.65 per cent., and a •decrease in the number of engineers of 26, or .25 of one per cent. The passenger traffic shows an increase from 1908 to 1910 of 7.82 per cent. It is a conservative estimate to say that there were at least as many, if not more, passenger engineers, em- ployed in 1910 than in 1908. The same can be said of both yard and transfer work, therefore the increased burden must have come almost entirely on the freight engineers. This is further proven by a statement of the Commission showing the increase in. the average train haul. This, perhaps, will look low to some of you, but you must remember this is obtained by dividing the total number of tons hauled by the number of trains run, light engines sent from one end of the road to the other for balance of cars, crews run light over the road to bring back a train of freight, branch runs — every movement is included. If it was confined to heavy main line dead freight trains, the showing would be different. In group 1, in 1900, the average train haul was 199.98 tons ; in 1910, it was 263.49 tons, an increase of 31.75 per cent. In group 2, in 1900, the average train haul was 362.1 tons ; in 1910, it was 502.12 tons; an increase of 140.02 tons, or an increase of 38.64 per cent. In group 3, in 1900 the average train haul was 338.25 tons ; in 1910, it was 457.41 tons, an increase of 119.16 tons, or 35.22 per cent. Mr. Butterfield: May I interrupt a moment? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Butterfield: To ask, if it is your expectation to have some one sworn to give all these figures which you are now stating, or do you intend to have this treated as your testimony? Mr. Stone: It is very immaterial to me. I can very easily corroborate it, if you would like, if there is any doubt about any of these questions, I shall be very glad to Mr. Butterfield: It seems to me, in the interest of orderly procedure, I assumed that, as Mr. Stone stated at the opening, the witnesses who testify to facts will be sworn, and it is of course, usual in proceedings where witnesses are sworn, to have the testimony on the facts given under oath. Now, of course, there could be no objection to Mr. Stone stating quite at length, in a general way, what his purpose is in introducing the proof, but, it seems to me, he is going quite beyond that now and introducing a great many facts which, if they are true, may be of more or less value, but which, if they are to be con- sidered, ought to come from a witness who has been sworn, and if he expects to duplicate it, it seems to me, it would be in the interest of economy of time to let that come from the witness in the first instance. The Chairman: May I ask whether you dispute the ac- curacy of those figures which have been submitted? Mr. Butterfield : To some extent we do, but, whether we do or not, I submit, if your Honors please, they should still be substantiated by a sworn, statement, and we should have oppor- tunity, of course, to verify the figures. Mr. Mofrissey: Who would swear the witness? Mr. Butterfield: I assume the Commission would have a secretary who was a notary public, and the notary public could administer the oath. Mr. Morrissey: But this Commission or Board has no au- thority to require witnesses to testify under oath. Mr. Butterfield: I did not assume there will be any objec- tion to anybody testifying. Of course you could not compel anybody to come here against his will, but I dare say there will be abundant witnesses who will volunteer, and there could be no trouble on that score. Of course, any notary public can administer an oath, and it seems to me if this testimony is to have the value which Mr. Stone thinks it will have in the minds 24 of the Board, and the public mind, it should come in under the solemnity of an oath. Mr. Judson: We are not a court, and we take figures and facts which anybody presents, and assume that they will deal fairly with the Board, and present figures and statistics they have confidence in, and we will try to verify them. Mr. Butterfield : Let it be understood that all the testimony and all the matters which are to be put into this record, are to come without oath on either side? Mr. Chairman: Yes, we do not feel we have authority to administer oaths, and we will give each side an opportunity to cross-examine witnesses, and bring out the facts that they wish to bring out. Mr. Butterfield: It is understood then, on both sides that no oaths will be required of any witnesses? The Chairman: No oaths will be required. Mr. Butterfield : I did not know that that decision had been reached. Mr. Judson: I cannot see what is the function of an oath, if the witness will state he is stating figures correctly; the figures are there, and they are official documents, and you have the same liberty, when you present your case, exactly, if you refer as to the documentary sources. Mr. Butterfield: That is true of many statistics which are of a public nature, but, for example, how could we verify the statistics Mr. Stone has given in respect to the insurance or- ganization he represents, and how could we tell how a man lost his eyesight, whether it was by burning his eyes in the fire, or whether something flew up from the track and hit him? These are things given here, presumably, to have weight and to influence your judgment, and, it seems to me, even though the tribunal is a voluntary one, or selected by virtue of agree- ment, I mean, while it may not itself have power to administer an oath, it certainly has all the convenience for submitting the witnesses to an oath, and it appears to me that the whole pro- ceeding would have much more dignity and propriety if every man who comes before you seven men to state facts which may or may not be within the knowledge of other persons should at least be surrounded by the solemnity of an oath. I think that is the proper practice. Mr. Stone : If the Chair please if the gentlemen is through. The Chairman: Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone: I stated in the beginning that I stood prepared to prove every statement I make. I repeat that statement. To overcome the objection offered by the gentlemen of the opposition I would like to offer, and file as one of the exhibits the sworn statement of the President and Secretary of our In- surance Department. Mr. Duncan : May we have a copy of that ? Mr. Stone : There are seven copies. There is no objection if you wish to see that. (The paper was marked "Engineer's Exhibit 1.") Mr. Worthington: May I say one word right there? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Worthington: Mr. Stone has drawn attention to the very marked increase in the volmne of work performed rep- resented by ton miles and by passenger miles, and to the num- ber of engineers employed, also the train loads. As a matter of fact, he said nothing about the wages. The wages of the engineers in that same period would show an increase in per- centage quite as great as the increase in ton miles, among other features. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, I rise to a point of order. Am I presenting my case now, or is Mr. Worthington! Mr. Worthington: Go ahead. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, you are presenting your case. Mr. Stone : All right. I will listen: patiently to anything Mr. Worthington has to say, when it comes to his time. 'The Chairman: I want to give a certain amount of leeway and latitude to this investigation. Mr. Stone: I shall be glad to go into the percentage of increase of the locomotive engineeis with Mr. Worthington when the time comes, and I think I can convince the Board, at least I have faith that I can, that the increase in the wages of the engineer has not kept pace with the increased duties, neither has it kept pace with the increase in wages of the other employes in train service, to say nothing about other classes of service, through the country. The Chaiiman: Well, Mr. Worthington will have an oppor- 26 tunity either to cross-examine you or to present such facts as to him seem proper under the circumstances. Mr. Shaw: We understood that Mr. Stone was presenting selected facts that puts his own contention in an especially fav- orable light, and that his statements were derived from Inter- state Commerce Commission reports and statistical documents, but the inferences to be derived from those statements were inference's which you probably would make by arguments in due course. Mr. Worthington : That is satisfactory. Mr. Stone : I naturally supposed, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Worthington would not expect me to present facts and figures to uphold his side of the case. I took it for granted that he would look after that, and that all I should do would be to look after the presenting of our side of the case in its best possible light. Mr. Butterfield: Then, if your Honors please, I understand the situation now that, at the conclusion of what Mr. Stone is saying now, that we treat his testimony as in and we are at liberty to cross-examine. Of course, we will not go over it again. Is that the idea? The Chairman : That is correct. Mr. Butterfield : We will now treat it as his testimony. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Judson : I think it would facilitate matters, Mr. Stone, if when you refer to documentary evidence, you would state the source of it, so we could examine it. Mr. Worthington : We do not want to interfere with ^1 r. Stone in any way, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, there are only three sources for me to obtain information from : One is through the records on file in the Interstate Commerce Commission and the reports made by the railroads themselves, and the other through the Wall Street Bible, that is published as news to the world. There are a thousand and one facilities possessed by the other side for getting information and details of operation and costs and all that sort of thing that it is impossible for a man in my position to get. I would like to offer, if you please, as an exhibit, the sheet that I have just been quoting- from, prepared by the Interstate* 27 Commece Commission itself, or rather, by a clerk in that office, and, if necessary, he will be glad to come here and swear to the correctness of it. Mr. Judson : Just read the title of it. Mr. Stone: "Statements compiled from certain data con- tained in Interstate Commerce Commission annual reports of statistics of railways for the years ending June 30th, 1901 to 1910, inclusive." Mr. Judson: Who prepared it? Mr. Stone: The Interstate Commerce Commission detailed a clerk, at my request, and we paid for the time consumed, which is customary, I believe, for the I. C. C. to do. The percentages were not there; I figured the percentages myself. The Chairman : Who takes charge of these exhibits ? Mr. Judson: The Secretary, when we get one. Mr. Morrissey : The stenographer can mark them. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Chairman, may I ask what provision will be made for us securing copies of what Mr. Stone offers! For instance, an exhibit of that kind, if Mr. Stone has a copy of it, I would like to have it, because it will give us an opportunity to look it over and facilitate matters, possibly giving us an op- portunity to cross examine immediately on the close of his side of the case. Mr. Stone: There are seven more copies we have made of that, and in view of the fact the original has been filed, they may have one of these. The Chairman : I wish to answer that of course every oppor- tunity will be given to either side to examine and copy such ex- hibits as may be desired. Of course, where exhibits are offered it is desirable that they be offered in duplicate so the other side could get a copy. Mr. Duncan: We have sufficient copies for Mr. Stone, when we get to our side of the case. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, have you copies of our various exhibits ? .Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; there are eight copies here; there can still be seven copies after giving them one, and the original to verify them by, if there is any question about the figures. They 28 can have a copy of this; there are no objections. If there is any doubt about the copies of the affidavit, here is the original, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman : They will get a copy, and the original will be on file, and they can compare it if they choose. Mr. Duncan : We have no reason to suppose the copy is not accurate. The Chairman : There is no doubt about that. It can easily be compared. M. Stone: I do not know where I was at in this tonnage scheme. I think I was in Group 3. In group 3 in 1900, the average train haul was 338.25 tons. Mr. Judson : What do you mean by group 3 1 Mr. Morrissey: The Interstate Commerce Commission's classification. Mr. Stone : If you will' pardon me, I might add, the Inter- state Commerce Commission for their own convenience divide the country off in groups as follows : Groups 1, 2 and 3 comprise the territory that we are covering here with these 50 railroads. Mr. Strauss : Group 3 takes in pretty generally Indiana and Ohio. M. Stone: And the southern peninsula of Michigan, and a little corner of northwestern Pennsylvania. The Chairman : It is the grouping of the Interstate Com- merce Commission? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Stone, do you take the groups as reported by the Interstate Commerce Commission rather than the 52 rail- roads involved here? Because, you know, not all the railroads in groups 1, 2 and 3 are involved in this controversy. Mr. Stone : All but four of the lines are in it, I believe. Mr. Duncan: I think there are more than that when you assume some of the lines going out of Chicago. Mr Stone : I am simply taking the grouping and these fig- ures are prepared from the grouping of the Interstate Com- merce Commission. Mr. Duncan : That is what I want to get clearly in my mind ; not for the 52 railroads alone, but all the railroads in the group. Mr. Shaw: He was not using these statistics for any pur- poses that related precisely to these railroads, but only to show 29 certain conditions that affect the business of engineers gener- ally. Mr. Stone: Showing why engineers should have more money, because more was being required of them. That is the object in presenting these figures. Mr. Shaw: Yes. Mr. Stone : In 1910, it was 457.41 tons, an increase of 119.16 tons, or 35.22 per cent., or an average increase for the entire territory covered by groups 1, 2 and 3 of 35.20 per cent., mean- ing practically that each engineer in freight service is doing about 35 per cent, more work to-day than he was in 1900. We are asking for a standard wage in the eastern territory, because we believe there is no good reason why there should not be a standard wage for the locomotive engineers in each class of service on all of the lines here represented. They run largely through the same common competing territory, they charge the same rates for transportation, freight and passen- ger, and now pay a standard wage to the trainmen, conductors and yardmen. You will be told, no doubt, by the other side, that they cannot afford to grant our request, and that we should wait until they get needed improvements, such as better road-bed and equipment, new tracks and terminals built, grades cut down, et cetera. If we wait until they acquire the above mentioned things they require, the millenium will be here. Beside, the sole purpose in cutting down grades is so the engineer can handle more tonnage, and the company get more out of each individual unit. According to the last report of the Interstate Commerce Commission, there was in the United States 343,732 miles of railways. In the roads represented there, there are about 50,- 000 miles, yet on these 50,000 miles of track, they handle over fifty per cent, of the freight and passenger traffic of the United States. We will prove to you by figures, that cannot be success- fully disputed — Mr. Van Hise: Do you mean 50% on the ton mile basis? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir ; more than 50 per cent, on the ton mile basis, and more than 50 per cent, on passengers. That is in the stenographic notes of our first meeting, and was stated by- 30 Mr. Stuart, the Chairman of the Conference Committee of Man- agers. We will prove to you by figures that cannot successfully be disputed, that in sections of the country where traffic is much lighter, population not half. so much, and conditions not nearly so favorable, the engineers to-day are being paid more than we are asking for here. , That, in a general way, is why we ask for these increased wages. Mr. Judson : Now, Mr. Stone, do I understand you to say — if I understand you correctly — that the engineers are the only class of railroad employees whose wages are not standardized! Mr. Stone: They are the only men in transportation ser- vice. The trainmen, conductors and yardmen are paid a stand- ard wage. Mr. Judson: The firemen? Mr. Stone: The firemen are not, but the firemen are fol- lowing immediately after us and, in fact, have adjourned until this Arbitration Board's hearings are over, and they, I believe are asking for a standard wage throughout the eastern coun- try. I think I am correct in that statement. Mr. Judson : Then your contention is not only for a definite amount of wage, but for a standard wage? Mr. Stone: In these requests here, we fix a standard wage for all these roads. Mr. Judson: Do I understand you now that that does exist as to all employees except the engineers and firemen? Mr. Stone: That is my understanding, yes, sir. All the rest of the men in train service— perhaps one of your Board, Mr. Morrissey, is in a much better position to answer' that than anyone else, because I believe he was one of the Arbitration Board who decided the question for the conductors and train- men and yardmen. Mr. Judson: Are you referring to the New York Central Arbitration? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, which was practically in line with the settlement made by mediation on the Baltimore & Ohio. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, I am going to ask you a very elementary question. Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman: What do you mean by standard? 31 Mr. Stone: A fixed rate of pay for a locomotive engineer, in a certain class of service,, regardless of the road he is working, on. For example, I think I can make it very plain to you, a man 1 in passenger service would be paid the same rate per mile,, whether employed on the New York Central, the New York, New Haven & Hartford, the Boston & Maine, or the Baltimore & Ohio. The Chairman: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And the man in freight service for the same class of engine in the same way. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, does that also include a fixed number of hours, or a standard method for computing overtime in his class! Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. It includes a fixed number of hours in each class of service, and it includes a standard rule for com- puting overtime, and the basis for initial and terminal delay in computing the time. \ Mr. Judson: Your position in that connection is that the standard for all roads, irrespective of their lftngth or pecuniary conditions. Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. It is so in other parts of the country. Mr. Judson : In the part of the country where I live, west of the Mississippi, is the standard in existence there! Mr. Stone : Not quite. We have never been able to get the standard of wage, but it is nearly so. We will submit the rate sheets of lines in the western territory, and also the rate sheets for roads in southeastern territory, that is, roads lying east of the Mississippi and south of the Ohio River. There it is prac- tically a standard wage. Mr. Judson: Irrespective of the condition of the road? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. So far as the condition of the road is concerned, the employee has nothing to say in regard to how the road is operated, or how they ^jpend their money, or anything else. He is simply there to work. And we believe his labor is "rcorth as much on one road as on another, and he should receive pay accordingly, regardless of the length of the road, or the physical condition of the road. They charge the same going rate for both freight and passenger. That is one of the things the Government has standardized. The railroads did not stand- ardize that, but the Government did for them, in many cases. 32 In taking up these articles presented to you for your deci- sion, I think it would be well to take them up section by section, and explain to you why we believe they should be paid. The Chairman : Mr. tSone, are you through with that state- ment? Mr. Stone : In a general way, yes, sir. Do you desire that I go ahead and present these in detail! The Chairman: No; the reason I asked you was I did not know but the interruption had prevented you from concluding your argument. Mr. Stone: Not in the least. Interruptions do not bother me, in the least. I am used to them. The first article we submit is, "Passenger rates." "Engines with cylinders of 20 inches or less in diameter, :$4.40 per 100 miles or less. Miles made in excess of 100 pro rata. ' ' Overtime in through passenger service to be computed on a basis of 20 miles per hour. "Overtime will be paid for at 70 cents per hour." Mr. Judson: What does that last sentence mean, "Miles made in excess of 100 pro rata" ? — 100 miles per day? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. We realize that in this passenger rate — Mr. Van Hise: Before you go into that, a little more ex- planation. Mr. Stone : Very glad to give it. Mr. Van Hise : Do you mean, in addition to the excess over 100 miles pro rata, that if it is overtime, there is an additional compensation involved by overtime? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Van Hise : And, for instance, if a mam stays a certain length of time, a ten hour day, and makes 150 miles, you will figure the pro rata for 150 miles, and add to that also, besides the 150 miles, the 70 cents per hour? Mr. Stone: If he was over a certain number of hours in making it. Mr. Van Hise: Yes, if he was over a certain number of hours in, making it. So there is a double charge. You get be- sides the regular mileage rate, in that case, if it takes a longer 33 than a normal time to do it, additional compensation, is that it? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. It might be wise to explain to you that, in the .olden times, overtime was unknown, and it was 24 hours, and you got in when you could and if you were out two" days on many roads you were paid by the trip. But such a thing as overtime years ago was unknown. They worked a man the full 24 hours if necessary, in order to get them over the road, and as much longer as they saw fit. The Chairman: Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. The Chairman : I merely want to ask you, for my infor- mation : Engines with cylinders of 20 inches or less in diameter, $4.40 per 100 miles or less? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman: That has no relation to the number of hours it takes to make those 100 miles? Mr. Stone: Yes, it does. The Chairman: That I do not understand. Mr. Stone: For example, a man would run 100 miles, for which he Would receive $4.40. The next paragraph says, ' ' Over- time in through passenger service to be computed on a basis of 20 miles per hour." If he was over five hours in running that 100 miles, he would be paid overtime at 70 cents an hour? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone : But if he made that 100 miles within five hours or less, he would only receive $4.40 for the trip. The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Stone: In other words, it is a penalty for long hours. Overtime is simply penalty time for long hdurs. The Chairman: If he made the 100 miles in two hours? Mr. Stone: He would be paid $4.40, because the locomotive engineer is different from the ordinary workman; he is prac- tically a pieceworker, if you please. He receives so much for each mile run, with a minimum of 100 miles per day. I think it took this organization about ten years to estab- lish 100 miles as a minimum day. They used to call a man out in the middle of the night and' work him ten miles and pay him 30 or 40 cents for that, and then he could go back to sleep, after his rest had been broken. 34 Now we place the minimum day at 100 miles, so he is guaran- teed a day's wage, and it is up to the company to get that number of miles out of him. Mr. Van Hise : And if a man, for instance, is laid off a day, in that case, the next day is 200 miles, and would have to be done in ten hours? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Van Hise : He must be guaranteed 100 miles. Mr. Stone: If he works. Mr. Van Hise: And suppose the railroad does not call the man for two or thre days. * Mr. Stone : They may not call him for a week. There may not be traffic enough, but he is guaranteed $4.40 a 100, under that guarantee. Mr. Van Hise: But he is not guaranteed work every day in the week? Mr. Stone: No, sir. Mr. Judson: How does this scale compare with what the roads are paying now, to-day? Mr. Stone : There are so many different rates on the differ- ent roads. I would think they would average from $3.85 to $4.15 in the east. Some may have rates slightly lower than that. Mr. Judson: How does this amount you have fixed here compare with what is paid on the western roads? Mr. Stone : It is slightly higher. I believe it is worth more to run a locomotive in this country, where the traffic is large and more congested and where they use this network of signals. We have no 18 hour trains in the west. We do not have this limited service on many of these roads. Yet, in the west we classify the engineers a little differently ; we have lighter power in the west, as a rule, except the modern locomotives they are get- ting now, and we make the classification from between 18 and 19 inch cylinders ; 18 and under gets a certain rate, and 19 and over gets an increased rate. Mr. Judson : Do you think there is any substantial difference in the situation, say taking the trains over the Union Pacific be- tween Chicago and Omaha and the trains of the Chicago & Al- ton between Chicago and St. Louis, as compared to the trains included in this group ? Mr. Stone: Do I think there is any substantial difference? Mr. Judson: Yes, in the service of the engineer. Mr. Stone: 1 think, if anything, the service here is harder, and, when the time conies. we will put some of our witnesses on the stand and we believe they will convince you that the require- ments are about as stringent as they well could be. Mr. Shaw: In your primary discussion of this matter, when you agreed on the 20 inch cylinder, as the dividing line — • — Mr. Stone : No, we did not agree on anything — we agreed to disagree. Mr. Shaw : Of course, I remember that there was a general rejection of your suggestions. The reason I ask the question how is to know whether we have got to go into that detail or whether, if we were able to find a basis of agreement upon wages, there would be an argument upon that particular question, as to the size and power. Mr. Duncan : I think you will have to go into that. Mr. Stone : We hope you will. If you do not care to go into it, we should be perfectly willing to accept the higher rate for~ all of them. Mr. Shaw: There is no doubt as to your disposition in that regard. Mr. Stone : I may answer, for your information, I made an agreement with the Louisville & Nashville, in the south, last Oc- tober, and I received the higher rate for all in the service ; there is no differential for the freight service on the Louisville & Nash- ville. There is a differential in passenger service. Mr. Shaw: With the tendency to build the larger engines, will this differential remain! Mr. Stone: We will always have the smaller engines for the light work. The Chairman: Is there any differential now? Mr. Stone : Yes, there is, on many roads. On others there is not. On many of the roads, you will find that it would have been possible to have got the higher rate for the larger power but they tried to keep the rate up for all. Mr. Shaw: As to the differential, upon what basis of cyl- inder size is it customary to make it? Take the New York Cen- tral or the Pennsylvania, for instance ? Mr. Stone: The New York Central has no differential; they 31) pay $4.15. On the Pennsylvania I think the standard main lint pays $4.15. The Pennsylvania has a great many trip rates oj some of their divisions. I do not know that there is any hare and fast rule. As I explained, these agreements are largely due to liberality en the part of the management on the one side ano the persislence and power of the organization, en the other, You will find large differences in competing territory, on prac- tically parallel roads. Up to three or four years ago it was nothing uncommon to find as high as 50 different rates on the same division. We have worked it out and succeeded in getting a good mary of them eliminated. You will find several different rates existing on different roads. I have never yet found any- body who could tell me why the differences existed. It depends largely on the question of local agreement between the manage- ment and the men of the runs represented. At some places you will find they have been favored, you will find in the case of a number of roads that there is a higher rate in existence, now be- ing paid, oar certain runs, than we are asking for. We believe that the engineers in this eastern territory should receive this increase on the main lines in this heavy power, you will find the rates running from about $4.05 to $4.15 per 100. Since these different schedules have been made, a new type of engine, the superheaters, have come in. A heavy modern machine, with a cylinder 24 to 28 inches in diameter. The steam is superheated, which is the latest idea in modern locomotive building, and they are built to handle these heavy steel strains on limited time, and they are a hard engine to ride, and they are a big, heavy, power- ful machine. A man does more work, he has more responsibil- ity, lie has more to look after, every new improvement that is made. Mr. Van Hise : Are these super-heaters compound engines ? Mr. Stone: No, sir. They are placed in the front end of the smoke arch to heat up the steam many hundreds of degrees of temperature higher than it used to be. In fact, it is going into the cylinders at such a high temperature it has been found necessary to get a new oil with a higher fire test, owing to the fact that the old cylinder oils would not lubricate proper 1 v. Mr. Morrissey: How are we to determine the number of engines on each road involved here, that this differential propo- 61 sition may affect? It might be inconsiderable on one road and considerable on another. Mr. Stone: I have here a list of every engine running on the roads east of Chicago, giving you the size and dimensions,, weight on drivers, and tractive power. Unfortunately there are only five copies made up, but I should be glad to file it with you, as an exhibit. Mr. Duncan: We can at least look at one of these copies? Mr. Stone: Surely. It is made up from the blue prints of the various roads. I also have here, as far as we can get, the number of engines in service. Unfortunately it is not com- plete. (The paper so offered and identified, were received in evi- dence and thereupon marked Engineers' Exhibit Nos. 2 and 3.") Mr. Stone: And on the railroads in the Southeastern terri- tory, where the traffic is not so congested, $4.15 is paid for cyl- inders 20 inches and less, and $4.20 for cylinders over 20 inches, and then on a number of roads it is $4.25 on all engines. On others, it is $4.20 on cylinders under 20 inches, and $4.40 on cylinders over 20 inches. The Chairman : That is for passenger traffic ? Mr. Van Hise : Have you made any estimate or computation as to the average percentage of increase that this would in- volve ? Mr. Stone : No, because it depends on so many things. Mr. Stuart stated, in the conference, that it meant 18 per cent. I question whether the figures will show that or not, as it is a hard matter to figure on, what it will be, on account of the initial and terminal delay, the two questions involved, of initial and terminal delay, are very largely what the railroads choose to make it. Mr. Judson : I understood from your statement that there was at present no uniformity; that different rates were in force on the same road. Mr. Stone: It will probably be much more on some roads than on others, as from Mr. Stuart's statement, which is in the notes here, it is 18 per cent. I believe Mr. Judson : Does that mean the average ? Mr. Stone: I suppose so. Mr. Worthington : That is right. 38 Mr. Stone : Averages mean almost anything, you know. It depends largely on the result you start out to get, what you get from figures. You can make figures do almost anything. Mr. Duncac : What Mr. Stuart meant The Chairman: Who is Mr. Stuart? Mr. Stone : Chairman of the Conference Committee of Man- agers. Mr. Duncan: What Mr. Stuart meant was that the engi- neers for the 52 railroads would have received 18 per cent, moie wages last year on the proposed rate than upon the rate in existence. Mr. Shaw: That is the aggregate wage fund which would have been paid to the engineers in the territory involved. Mr. Duncan: That is right. Mr. Shaw: Which would have been 18 per cent, larger if paid upon this basis, than if paid as they actually did pay. Mr. Duncan : That is right. Mr. Shaw: Those are statistics, of course, that can be scien- tifically and accurately stated. Mr. Duncan : We have it for each line. Mr. Judson: Is it claimed that the adoption of this scale by the railroads would involve the employment of more engi- neers? Mr. Stone: No. Mr. Judson: They do not claim that? Mr. Stone: I do not think they claim that. Mr. Morrissey: Where do you take those rates of pay of .southern engineers from? Mr. Stone : From the schedules themselves, and I shall be very glad to file it with you as an exhibit. Mr. Morrissey: What do you mean by schedules? Mr. Stone : The agreement which exists now between the organizations of the different roads, naming the present work- ing wage agreements that are being paid at the present time on these roads. The same is true of the exhibit of the western roads. Mr. Van Hise: Yes, we certainly want those schedules of pay. Mr. Stone : We shall be very glad to file them with you. 39 The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Stone: That is just made up as a summary of the- roads, for convenience. We shall he glad to file the originals, with you, if you desire. Mr. Judson: I supose you are going to take up the freight rates and schedules? Mr. Stone: Yes. The Chairman: That is the schedule of rates now paid! Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, in this southeastern territory. The Chairman: Is this southeastern territory! Mr. Stone : Yes, groups 4 and 5, the lines east of the Missis- sippi Eiver, and south of the Ohio River. The Chairman: Not those in controversy? Mr. Stone: No. Mr. Van Hise: They are put in for comparative purposes. The Chairman: I think it would be well to have these. Mr. Stone: Here are the rates paid at the present time in this territory. I would be glad to submit them to you. The Chairman: We had better have them marked. Mr. Stone: And I shall be glad to file the agreements that these are taken from with them. The Chairman: You mean the original agreements? Mr. Stone: Yes. The Chairman : I do not believe we need those. Mr. Stone : If you will pardon me for offering the sugges- tion, it would be well to have them, because often a question comes up as to whether or not a certain rate is not modified by the agreement. The Chairman: Very well. (The paper was received in evidence and marked "Engi- neers' Exhibit No. 4, July 15th, 1912.") Mr. Judson: I see that freight rates are higher than pas- senger rates? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, that is true all over. Mr. Judson: Is there any reason for that? M!r. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: There is no dispute about that; that is to say— Mir. Stone: Well, there is always dispute as to what the rate should be, but there never has been any dispute about 40 the policy that the freight rates should be higher than passen- ger. That is the custom that has grown up through all the years. Mr. Judson: I am not a railroad man, and cannot under- stand it. Mr. Stone : It is largely due to the fact that a man in pas- senger work gets over the railroad quicker, perhaps, and makes more miles in a month, while with the freight man since we have the tonnage system, it has become a question largely of hours rather than miles. He works by the hour. I hardly think it is necessary to dwell at length on this passenger rate. I simply ask you to compare the rates with the rates now being paid in most southeastern territory and the western territory, and to take into consideration the congestion of traffic here in this eastern territory. Mr. Van Hise : Has the exhibit for the southeastern roads been marked? Mr. Stone: The southeastern has not been put in, because I wanted to use one of them as the basis for some other work, but I will be glad to submit them later. Mr. Eidlitz : I would like to ask one question on the matter ■of overtime, the 20 miles per hour, the overtime proposition, does that mean if you run 40 miles you would get $1.40 for that? Mr. Stone : No, it means if you run 100 miles in five hours you would receive no overtime; if you consume six hours, you will be paid $4.40, and an additional 70 cents for one hour's overtime. You divide the number of miles run by 20, and any time in excess of that is paid for at the overtime rate of 70 cents per hour. Mr. Eidlitz: And the day's work would stop at that point then, would it? Mr. Stone: If he got into overtime, not necessarily. For example, I might have a run of 140 miles, and I would be paid $4.40 for the first 100 miles and $4.41 for the other 40 miles, and if I was in excess of seven hours I would be paid overtime after seven hours, in addition. Mr. Eidlitz : I understand. Mr. Stone: That is common; the principal is recognized through all these wage agreements. I would like to offer as 41 one of the exhibits, before going further, a statement made up from the Interstate Commerce Commission reports, and if there is any question about it, they will find it on — I am not certain on what page — I think it is 21 or 22. It is contained in the report, at any rate. The Chairman: Of what year! Mr. Stone: The Statistics of the Railways of the United States, for the year 1910, Interstate Commerce Commission. This is compiled from that, and has been compiled carefully, and there is no question about the figures. In groups 1, 2 and 3, according to their report, there was in operation in 1910, 53,122 miles of road. The average miles of road per square mile of territory was 17.49. The population per mile of line taken from the 10th census report in groups 1, 2 and 3. was 867. I am introducing this to show the congested traffic in this eastern territory, the people they have to draw from in passen- ger service. Mr. Butterfield : Will you state that again. It was 867 per- sons per mile of road? Mr. Stone: Population per mile of line in 1910. Mr. Butterfield: 867? Mr. Stone: Yes. In groups 4 and 5, comprising the states of Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Mississippi, the two Carolinas, Tennessee, Virginia and West Virginia, there were 40,450 miles of road in operation. 10.55 miles per square mile of territory, and 424 people per mile of line in 1910, one-half as many people to draw from for passenger traffic. In groups 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10, comprising all the states west of Indiana from the Gulf to the northern line of the United States, there were 134,565 miles of road in operation. There were only 7.42 miles of road to each square mile of territory, and there was 216 of population per mile of line in 1910 ; that is all the population they had to draw from; clearly showing to you that in the eastern group there were twice as many population per mile of line as in the southeastern territory, and four times as many as there were in the western territory. Mr. Van Hise: There is something wrong there. You say in the whole west there are how many thousand miles of rail- road? M. Stone: There it is (handing paper). 42 Mr. Van Hise: Yes, but there are a great many more — he said seven miles of railroad to each square mile. There are a great many more miles of territory in the western groups? Mr. Stone : They are not my figures. Mr. Van Hise: There are 50,000 square miles of territory in three states. Mr. Judson: I guess the "western" means a particular di- vision there? Mr. Stone : No. Mr. Van Hise : It must be that number of square miles to one mile of line instead of the number of miles of line to the square mile of territory. There are two million square miles practically in these groups 5, 6, 7 and 8, and only 130,000 miles of line, so there is something wrong. Mr. Stone : All right, I live right down close to Missouri. Mr. Van Hise : I think the heading must be wrong. It must be number of square miles per mile of line, instead of number of miles of road per square mile of territory. I think the heading must be reversed. Mr. Stone : I may have gotten it wrong. Mr. Judson: "Well, it is your contention, I understand, re- garding this, that assuming there is a greater density of popula- tion in this section of the country, that the engineers are entitled to a higher standard of pay on account of that density of popu- lation. Mr. Stone : No, I was simply showing that — Mr. Judson : Would that be acceded to by the engineers in that section of the country? Mr. Stone : I am not showing that, but simply that the den- sity of traffic is greater, that the roads have more revenue to draw from. Mr. Van Hise : The conditions would be the sam6> but the heading should be reversed. Mr. Stone: I will withdraw that exhibit for the tithe being I would like also to show you this congestion of traffic and show why it is possible. This is taken from the Statistics of the Bail- ways of the United States, for 1910, Reports, page 21. In the territory covering group 1, passengers carried by passShger lo- comotives 118,253. Locomotive passenger miles per passenger locomotive 2,304,678. 43 In group 2, passengers carried per passenger locomotive 102,454. Passenger miles per passenger locomotive 2,278,929. Group 3, passengers per passenger locomotive 54,886. Pas- senger miles per passenger locomotive 2,206,925. Showing that many more passengers are carried per pas- senger locomotive than in groups 4 and 5. For example, group 4, passengers carried per passenger locomotive, 53.348, and in group five, 53,679 passengers, less than one-half as many pas- sengers carried per passenger locomotive. The same holds good in the west. It scales down much lower as to the number of passengers carried, although it requires more equipment. It is perhaps true there is a longer haul of passengers in the west in many cases. The freight equipment is about the same, although the freight mileage is much heavier per ton mile as to freight equip- ment. I simply offer this, copied in concise form, from the In- terstate Commerce Commission reports for 1910, page 21. Mr. Morrissey: What does that prove in connection with what you have said? Mr. Stone : It proves we are in a much more congested ter- ritory and that the railroads have much more revenue to draw from, and that they are getting more per locomotive and for their equipment than any line in either the south or west. They are able to add more revenue for each unit of equipment. Mr. Judson: Does it prove that the engineers have a more hazardous service or work harder than those in the western and southern parts of the country? Mr. Stone: I think we will all agree that with congestion of traffic and the necessary network of signals that go with it it is harder, work and there is more hazard. Mr. Willard: I would like to inquire if it is your thought that the extension of the automatic signal system adds to the hazard of the locomotive engineer? Mr.Stone: It adds to the requirements of the locomotive engineer at least. Mr. Willard : But does it not substitute for something else ? Mr. Stone : It is put in, no doubt, in the interest of safety, and yet the fact remains that every new added safety device puts that much more demand upon the man in the cab of the locomotive. 44 Mr. Willard: It makes for the general safety, of course, it makes for his safety also, does it not? Mr. Stone: It also makes it possible for him to get in trouble much easier on these high speed trains, with a man look- ing after his locomotive and his boiler and watching the feed of two super-heaters, and so forth. Mr. Willard: But if he actually got in trouble — Mr. Stone: I don't know that he actually gets in trouble, but there is more opportunity for getting in trouble, there are more requirements for the engineer, it requires a higher stand- ard. A man catching his signals every 20 or 25 seconds on one of your limited trains — Mr. Willard : But that is really not what happens. Where the signals are very thick, it is where the trains run less fa:st around the terminals, and where high speed is maintained the signals would not come every 20 seconds as a rule. Mr. Stone: No, they would probably come every 30 or 40 seconds. Mr .Willard : On some of the very fastest trains. Mr. Stone : Yes. I think it is safe to say the general aver- age of signals will run about one to the mile. Mr. Willard: That is simply your opinion. Have you any data on that? I really have not. Mr. Stone: The number of signals? Mr. Willard: No, the average frequency of signals. You Lave mentioned that as having a bearing. Mr. Stone : I think we will be able to substantiate that by the witnesses. I think we will show to you there arw a few more signals than there are less, that is stop signals, I mean, stop signals, I think we will be able to show you they run a little more than one signal to each mile as an average, and on many of the roads they would get them closer than that, if it was not for these long freight trains ; they want to get them between the blocks. Mr. Willard: But it would not necessarily follow; it might be misunderstood ; it would not necessarily follow that the sig- nals were so thick as you have indicated where the speed is so fast, and as a matter of fact I am inclined to think where the s-ignals are so frequent the speed is less and I say perhaps it 45 "would not be so exacting on the engineer to see the signals as one would think from the general statement — not that you intend to mislead, but the general statement itself I think might tend to mislead. Mr. Stone: I believe we both spent a good many years of our lives in the cab of a locomotive, and I think we both realize that the man on the limited train does not slow up very much any- where, if he makes its time. Take your 18 hour train on the Lake Shore Division of the New York Central, it is strung up to about 66% miles, on the division between Buffalo and Cleveland. Mr. Willard: But as long as your contention is for stand- ardization is it quite fair to refer to two particular trains which only run on two railroads out of the 52 and base your argu- ments on that for all the railroads? Mr. Stone: I am not basing my arguments alone on those two particular trains. In fact I only have one man here from one of the 18 hour trains. I have men in other passenger ser- vice where practically the time is almost as fast, and including the stops it is perhaps as fast. The 18 hour trains have a cer- tain advantage; they strike a certain average and there is no let up to it, and the other trains have to. stop and then make as high a rate, or perhaps higher between stops. My only idea in offering this as an exhibit is to show the thickness of popu- lation and the congestion of traffic and to show the facilities these roads have to draw from and show the results they get per unit of equipment. Mr. Shaw: May I ask one broad question. I take it with all these tables filed and with the witnesses who will come- on together with the opportunity we shall have to study the statistical tables carefully, in order to verify statistical con- clusions, we shall be able to get at these matters pretty well. I want to ask a broad question that does not involve statistics so much as it involves impressions. Your broad statement has been that in this eastern territory the locomotive engineers are not paid as much as they are paid in the southeastern district and or in the general western sections. Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Shaw: Now assuming the truth of that general state- ment, is it also true of other classes of railway labor, in gen- eral, that they are better paid in the southeastern part of the country and in the wesern part of the country west of Indiana? Is there Mr. Stone : I do not think there is but little if any difference. Mr. Morrissey, one of your arbitrators is probably in a better position to answer that than I, because he has been at the head of the Trainmen's organization for years, and he has handled the organization. Mr. Shaw: We want to get out of your general statement the sort of atmosphere in which this general question exists, because before we get very far, we should be wanting to find .out what reasons there are in justice, why locomotive engineers should be paid decidedly more in one part of the country than another, and with what other facts that fact should run parallel, whether it runs parallel with conditions that make it just that wages should be greater in one part of the country than in -another. When he comes to trainmen and station men and any other form of service, would you find similar percentages of -excessive wages in one section of the country as compared with another, or would you say that the condition of the engineers is somewhat exceptional? Those are the general facts that I thought you might mention, out of your impression. Mr. Judson: Eight in that connection Mr. Stone, you have spoken of the hazards of the engineer's business. Would you contend that those hazards are increased as population be- comes more dense and the tracks become better, when wooden bridges are made steel and grade crossings abolished and the like, those circumstances which are incident to a denser popu- lation? Mr. Stone : Unfortunately, I do not have the statistics from our Insurance Department compiled year by year, but I think with the increased speed of our passenger tarins we are killing more engineers than formerly and with our long hours on freight I think that more of our men are getting killed than formerly. I make that statement in a general way. Mr. Judson: But those conditions operate all over the country, and is not increased speed more dangerous and more hazardous in a territory where the tracks are not modern and where you have generally rougher conditions? Mr. Stone: Well, I perhaps may be prejudiced in my own 47 views. I have been in the west all my life and all my railroad- ing was done in the west, and if I was going to pull a limited train I would much prefer to pull it out in the west where I had more open country than to make the limited time through the more congested country you have in the east. Mr. Judson: Do you think it would be less hazardous to run a limited train say from Chicago to St. Louis on a single track on one of the roads there than to run from Albany to Boston? Mr. Stone: I would much prefer it myself. I think it is a mistaken idea about the safety of these limited trains on double tracks. I think that almost any of our men will testify that the one horror they fear is the buckling of a freight train on the track next to them just as they meet it through the bursting of the air hose or a broken wheel or flange, or a defective truck and things of that kind. There are numerous cases of that, and I think that is the one thing our men in limited train ser- vice fear, is the fact when he is making 70 or 80 miles an hour and passing or meeting a freight train on the next track that something will give way and pull that f rieght train up in front of him. I think we will convince you of that by our witnesses. Mr. Van Hise : Has this exhibit been marked ? Mr. Stone : Yes, I will have it marked now. (The paper was marked "Engineers' Exhibit No. 5.") Mr. Stone : I also made a statement, in a general way, that the wages of locomotive engineers had not kept pace with the wages in other vocations, and I desire to file with you for ref- erence the present rate paid in the City of New York in other vocations at the present time. I simply offer it as an exhibit to show you what is being done in other lines, not that I think it has any great particular bearing, but the question has been asked me a number of times, how do your rates of wage compare. Mr. Shaw: How is this compiled? Mr. Stone : How is this compiled ? Mr. Shaw: Yes. Mr. Stone : This is furnished by the National Civic Federa- tion, by Mr. Easley. I don't know where they got their fig- ures, but I take it for granted they are accurate. The Chairman: The National Civic Federation? 48 'Mr. Stone : Yes, rates of wages paid different branches of skilled labor in and around New York City for the year 1910, which was furnished by the Commission of Labor, Mr. Williams, through Mr. Easley, and he furnished it to me. Mr. Judson: How can we make any analogy from that un- less you furnish us an estimate of what this scale of yours will amount to as an average monthly pay? Mr. Stone: I think you can draw the compariosn yourself by reading it over. It is so much better than what we even hope for; they have the eight hour day all the way through as the basis, and we are only asking for ten hours on freight, and I notice that as to derrick steam engineers, the first engineer gets $175 a month for an eight hour day. I think we would be willing to accept that for our switch engineers in and around New York without any discussion whatever. Mr. Morrissey: Does that exhibit show the rule for the payment of overtime? Mr. Stone: No, sir, it does not show the rule for the pay- ment of overtime, but I think Mr. Eidlitz will probably corrob- orate this, that they are paid a time and a half for overtime, and double time for all night work after midnight, and Sundays. (This paper was marked "Engineers' Exhibit No. 6," July 15, 1912.) Mr. Eidlitz: Well, it varies. Mr. Stone: But in a general way that is the condition? Mr. Eidlitz: Yes. Mr. Willard: In that same connection, might it not prop- erly be said that a man who works for contractors, and so forth, actually works the eight hours for the eight hour day, while in the train engineer's service, while ten hours may be the maxi- mum, they are paid for a full day, even if they should make it on these fast trains, in two or three hours; so, the analogy is not quite fair. Mr. Stone: We think the analogy is more than fair, be- cause in the eight hours a man was working on one of these jobs he would probably turn out so much labor, and a man working on mileage basis works on piece work, and for each mile run he receives so many cents, with a minimum day back of him guaranteed, of course, and when he arrives at his des- tination if be makes the 100 miles in two hours, he has given 49 the value received, and has delivered the 100 miles for which he has agreed to work the minimum day, so there is not any- thing coming to the carrier at the end of that two hours. It would not be fair to say because you have given the 100 miles in two hours, you should turn around and give them eight hours more of your time. The Chairman: Is the strain of running 100 miles in two hours twice as great as running 100 miles in four hours, or the wear and tear of everything? Mr. Stone: I think we will all agree that the strain in- creases with the rate of speed. I think if you gentlemen have any doubt on that question, and need a practical illustration, I have no doubt that these gentlemen on the other side would be glad to arrange for you to ride in the cab of one of their fast locomotives. Mr. Willard: Is it not also a fact that generally the fast trains are considered the preferred trains, and that engineers take them in the order of their age. Mr. Stone: It is largely true until we get to the 18 hour trains. Mr. Willard: That is only an exception on two roads. Mr. Stone : And on those two trains we find it a hard mat- ter — that is a living illustration of the rule, drawn perhaps to an extreme. Mr. Willard: Is it an illustration of the rule to take the conditions on two fast trains on two roads only out of the 50? Barring those two trains, is it not a fact that the men older in service all prefer the faster trains which enable them to per- form their duties in a fewer number of hours! Mr. Stone : That is perhaps true, because he has more time to himself. But later on, as he commences to slow down and get a little bit too careful to make the time, and commences to break down and his nerve lets up a little bit, he commences to bid off on slower trains. As a rule in these fast trains on all these railroads, not counting even the two railroads which have the 18 hour service, you see the younger class of men getting in the locomotives on the fast trains, and the older men are bidding in the slower runs. There are a few exceptions, because some men are old at 50, and other men who are the exception are in their best up to 65 or 70. I can recall one particular 50 man who has been in the fast passenger service for over thirty- years, and he is to-day 65 or 70 years old, yet so far as his go- ing qualities are concerned and his nerve, I think they are as good to-day as they ever were, but that man is the exception, and not the rule. The Chairman : How many hours does a man usually work on these fast trains! Mr. Stone : He would probably run 140 to 150 miles, in 150 or 160 minutes actual time on duty. That does not include the two or three hours beforehand getting ready, or the hour or two after he is in, making out necessary reports and telling why he failed to do this, and did not happen to do the other, and ex- plaining how it happened and looking after his engine, and mak- ing out the necessary working reports, time slips and so forth; so the actual hours between terminals is really the smallest part of his work, and I believe we will demonstrate that to you when we get our witnesses on the stand. In the electric service, which perhaps required or caused more discussion than any other article here, we take the posi- tion that the change of motive power from the steam to elec- tricity works no fundamental changes in the duties or require- ments of the engineer, consequently there should be no difference in the rate of pay of the two classes. In order to be a qualified engineer, the men of our class are required to fit themselves up to the standard required by the company. They must pass the examination prescribed. The same is true of the engineer oper- ating by electric power. Many of the requirements are common to both classes of service. There is no lessening of responsibil- ity in the change from one to the other. The hazard is much the same, although arising from different causes. The hazard is, if anything increased by the change, instead of diminished. A competent electric engineer must be as intelligent, skilled, and in every way as high grade a workman as the engineer of a steam locomotive. It will be a long time before the steam loco- motive gives way to the electric engine, or electricity applied in Other ways. During this time it will be necessary to educate the engineers both as to the knowledge of steam and electricity and manifestly under such conditions both classes must carry the same rate of pay. We take the position that the locomotive en- gineer could handle the motive power regardless of what that 51 motive power may be. And we believe tlijat those positions be- long to us. We have contracted with the company to trans- port their freight and passengers, and if there is some change of power from steam to electricity, we still believe that that be- longs to the locomotive engineers. You have the same physical examination; you have the examinations on the books of rules with the additional examinations on the electric locomotive and the electric operation of trains. Mr. Judson: What is the difference between the parties on that question, if there is any? Mr. Stone: Between the two parties to this controversy? Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Stone : We are perhaps farther apart on that particular question than any other one submitted. For example, we are re- ceiving the same rate of pay on the New York Central and on the New Haven, steam and electricity are paid the same for both the electric locomotive and the multiple unit train. On the Long Island, which is one of the largest operating roads in and around- New York, of multiple unit trains, there is a differential of 15 miles. The man in the electric service must -go 15 miles more for a day than a man in steam, at the same rate, however. On The Pennsylvania, I believe, the rate for electric locomotives is the same Mr. Duncan: No, it differs. Mr. Stone: Does it differ, Mr. Park? Mr. Park: We have a minimum of $5 on the electric loco- motive, but we have to use the miles equal to steam mileage for it. Mr. Stone : On the multiple unit trains, I believe they re- quire 180 miles per day at the present time on the Pennsylvania. The Chairman : What do you mean by multiple unit trains ? Mr. Stone: That is, it is not an electric locomotive, but each car has its motor under it, and they handle it in trains of eight to ten cars, the same as they handle the subway expresses, and the same as they handle the West Jersey & Sea Shore. The New York Central and the New Haven have the multiple unit system, as well as the electric locomotives. Mr. Morrissey: What is the intention of the engineers as expressed in this first sentence of this proposition. If adopted as you have propose:! it. it would displace men now holding 52 positions as electric engineers, who have not been heretofore graded as engineers'? Mr. Stone: It would not 'displace, if this article, was adopted, except perhaps on the Pennsylvania. That has been disputed ever since the Hudson & Manhattan leased trackage rights over the Pennsylvania ; but the intent of the article is not to displace men in service, only as vacancies occur. The question on the Pennsylvania is slightly different than the others, for the reason that it has been a disputed question ever since the electric service was put on. You have a case where the Pennsylvania Company leased to another company track- age rights. They run their trains down over the Pennsylvania line to Manhattan Junction, I think, a distance of about six or seven miles. The result Was it pulled off some 28 runs and 12 train crews. That has been in dispute ever since, and up to the present time has not been settled. Mr. Morrissey : Then, it is not your intention to take away from any employe in electric service any right gained by him prior to the adoption of this agreement, or the award of this Board. Mr. Stone: No, only so far as this applies to the unsettled question on the Pennsylvania. That is a disputed question at the present time. What effect this award would have on that, would perhaps be a question for settlement later on. The Chairman: I do not think your colleagues here, Mr. Morrissey, quite understand the purport of your question. Mr. Morrissey: The idea is this, that some years ago be- fore the engineers' organization assumed jurisdiction of elec- tric service, men from other classes were appointed to positions which later were classed as engineers. A literal rending of this proposal would displace these men from the rights they have gained under past rules. That is why I asked Mr. Stone the question. He answers it in this way, as I understand it, that the engineers' organization does not propose to go back of the date of this agreement and displace any man in the employ of any of these companies in service, but from the date of this agreement, or of this award, that any position in electric ser- vice, any vacancy occurring, or any new positions created, will be filled by locomotive engineers. Is that correctly state;! ? Mr. Stone: That is correct. 53 The Chairman: Are locomotive engineers qualified to run the electric trains? Mr. Stone : They have to qualify before they can run them. They do qualify on these other roads, yes, sir. The Chairman: They do qualify? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. They hold seniority on the electric service on the New York Central and on the New York, New Haven & Hartford, on both the multiple unit trains and on the electric locomotives. They are all filled by locomotive en- gineers. The Chairman: Does that mean if they want a number of electric engineers that those must be drawn from the locomo- tive engineers, provided a sufficient number of locomotive engi- neers have qualified? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, that is correct. The Chairman: Suppose a sufficient number have not qual- ified? Mr. Stone: Then they would go outside and get them, as they do at the present time. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: But that is only a theory, Mr. Chairman, that will never arise? The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Judson: Your opinion is that if the steam engineers are qualified to run an electric locomotive, they should be given the preference ? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: All through? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. The one thing that we object to, and I think it is stronger than anything else, is the fact that a man will work the best part of his life and through years of service get up to some good run, and they change the motive power from steam to electricity, or, as on some of our runs, they are putting on a gasolene motor, and we claim the right of the engineer to operate that run regardless of the kind of power furnished him. If he is not qualified, of course, the company will not put him on there. But we deny the company's right to simply throw that man out on the scrap pile and say "we have nothing further for you ; we are going to put another kind of power on here and are going to get a cheap man we hired yesterday to take your 54 place." That is the point we object to. We do not deny the company's right to lease its trackage, but we do deny the com- pany's right to lease the man's job from under him when they do lease their trackage. Mr. Willard:" Mr. Stone, you wish the Board to understand that in your opinion it takes no more skill or knowledge to operate a steam locomotive than to operate an electric locomo- tive. Mr. Stone: No more knowledge? Mr. Willard: Yes; that it is no more skilful a job to run a steam locomotive than to run an electric motor on a simple train such as we see operated in our streets ? Is the same nature .of skill required in the one case as in the other? Mr. Stone: Perhaps in a different way. Skill, so far as taking care of a steam locomotive and looking after the boilers &nd the thousand and one boiler appliances, no. So far as the responsibility for the safety of the train and the responsibility of safely getting that train over the road, yes. There is no dif- ference. The responsibility is the same. Mr. Willard : But is it not a fact that in the case — Mr. Stone : The danger, if anything, has been increased. Mr. Willard : Is it not a fact that in the case of the steam locomotive his scale of wages has been arrived at by giving con- sideration not only to the responsibility for the safe movement of the train, but also taking into account the length of time he put in as an apprentice to learn to safely manage and maintain and operate a steam locomotive, and that those things entered into fixing his rate of wage? Now I just want to get your position. As I understand it, your contention now is that notwithstanding the fact that a steam locomotive engineer is required to have knowledge of his machine and know how to care for it and handle it safely, the boiler and so forth, still a man running an electric machine, which does not require any such knowledge as that, should receive the same pay. Keally that is the meat in the whole thing, is it not, that it is your desire to man a machine with engineers drawing a higher wage than it would be necessary to pay other men, we will say, equally competent, who might be hired to run the electric machine but could not run the steam machine? Is not that point really very much involved in the whole question? 55 Mr. Stone: I do not think we would agree with you, Mr. Willard. I do not think we would agree that it does require less skill to run the electric locomotive than it does to run the steam locomotive. It is a different kind of skill it is true, but his efficiency has to be just as great, his examination, if anything,, is more rigid than that of a steam engineer, and while it is per- haps true that you could get a cheaper man, yet the engineers object to the cheap man sandwiched in between their steam trains- Mr. Willard : I had in mind, Mr. Chairman, just this fact : After all the public pays the bill, and should any action be taken: which would impose upon the public the burden of paying a higher rate of wage than is necessarily and fairly and properly required to get the skill necessary to operate the electric train? Now, if the skill necessary to run a steam locomotive is not necessary on the electric locomotive, then should the public pay for something that is not necessary! Mr. Shaw: Are there not really two questions involved there, one being the theoretical question that Mr. Willard just stated, and the other being a practical question involved in the transitional stage, where we are not as a fact passing from a( steam operation to an electric operation very rapidly, and where the undertaking is hereto provided for a situation that is not coming about as rapidly as we passed from horse street railways to the trolley system, and would not a provision of this kind, even if agreed upon, be agreed upon for a short period and pro- visionally, to be met at some time, upon conditions that have become more universally established. Mr Willard : Personally. I should doubt very much the ad- visability of establishing something now that will have to be dis-established, which might mean a reduction in wage. — ^ Mr. Stone: Well, speaking for the locomotive engineers, we will take the position that the locomotive engineers of this country intend to operate the motive power of this country, be it what it may, gasolene, electricity or any other power that may be discovered, and when you put on your line of frying ma r chines in the near future we intend to operate "tbose7~if you please. Mr. Judson: Taking that position, it still would be a dis- cussable question between the roads between the classes of ser- 56 vice ; you would still make a difference between passnger rates and freight rates and between freight rates and switching ser- vice. Of course, electric service is of different kinds ; there are the heavy passenger locomotives and the light trains, and so forth, so even accepting your position it would be a discussable question regarding the rate of pay, would it not? Mr. Stone: The rate of pay is always discussable. Mr. Eidlitz: But even if you admit that position it would be possible that it would not follow necessarily that the com- pensation should be the same. Mr. Stone: There are two discussable questions wrapped up in the one article. Mr. Eidlitz : Yes ; that is what I wanted. Mr. Van Hise : You include in your statement, they should pay the same rate. Mr. Stone: They are paying the same rate to-day both on the New York Central and the New York, New Haven & Hart- ford. On the Pensylvania I said there was a difference of 80 miles, and I would like to correct that and say on the West Jersey & Seashore there is a difference of 60 miles between the electric and steam service on the Long Island there is a difference of 15 miles between the electric and steam service. Mr. Worthington: But, is not the Pennsylvania arrange- ment a temporary one! Mr. Stone : No more than any other part of the wage agree- ment on those roads is temporary. Mr. Worthington: Is there not a clause in the agreement that it provides only for a stated period until the electric line zone is completed? Mr. Stone : Yes ; but neither you nor I expects to live until the electric zone is completed. Mr. Worthington: They are doing it very rapidly. Mr. Stone: And the electric zone is being extended all the time. Mr. Van Hise: How long has that agreement been in ex- istence? Mr. Store : That agreement has been in existence five years,, I believe; 1907, I think it was made, so the principle at least? is fairly well established. Mr. Shaw: May we see a copy of that agreement? 57 Mr. Stone : I would be very glad to show you one ; we have one here and will file this with the other agreements. Mr. Shaw: I remember it when it was made and I would like to see a copy of it. Mr. Duncan: That would bear out your statement regard- ing the transitional period? Mr. Stone : The change from steam to electricity is not trans- itional. The electricity has not developed as fast as some of its friends had hoped it would, but it has developed much faster than some of the railroads wanted to see it. The Chairman : Briefly put, this clause signifies, does it not, first, that where electric power supplements steam power, that the locomotive engineer shall have the preference of employ- ment as long as you can supply them from your source. Mr. Stone : So long as we qualify, that is the first question. The Chairman : Yes. No. 2, that he shall have the same pay upon the electric engine as he had upon the steam engine. Mr. Stone: The same pay and working conditions. The Chairman: Then, I understand that clause. Mr. Stone: That is correct. Mr. Shaw: There is a certain moral question involved, of course, as well as a certain industrial question, in all these ques- tions. We had that same question in the printing trades when they passed from hand composition to the Mergenthaler ma- chine, and there it was generally admitted that old printers, members of the Typographical Union, should be given prefer- ence in employment in the operation of the machines, although it was a different process. Mr. Stone: I believe one of the gentleemn stated it was a very simple operation on an electric locomotive. I do not want to overburden this Commission, but I want to show you a blue print for the wiring scheme alone on an electric locomotive ; the man is required to know the location of every one of those wires, because he must know the location to get in. If by look- ing at this you think it is simple, I beg leave to differ. That is only one. Here is another one. If that does not look like a Chinese puzzle, I do not know what you want to call it. Mr. Worthington : Doesn't he qualify in about five days? Mr. Stone : He qualifies to run it, but he never quits learn- ing it. He must know the location of all these wires 58 Mr. Worthington : He doesn't do the wiring? Mr. Stone: He has to know the location of every one, and in case of a short circuit, he must know how to repair it, and what to do. It is true he is not an electrician. If he was, he would want more money. Mr. Worthington: He qualifies in about five days? Mr. Stone : He learns to operate the machine in about five days. Mr. Worthington: Takes full charge of it? Mr. Stone : Yes, that is true : I simply offer this as an exhibit to show what the man on an electric has to take care of. (The papers were marked "Engineers' Exhibits 7 and 8," July 15th, 1912.) , Mr. Stone: The gentleman asked for the reading of that tentative agreement; this is the one through the transition period. This is the present agreement on the New Haven, effective May 14th, 1910, and it is in effect now. Eule 1 is as follows: ' ' Memorandum of agreement made between Committee of Engineers representing the New York Central and Committee of Engineers representing the New York, New Haven & Hart- ford, both represented by Mr. E. W. Hurley and the General Managers of these companies, as of date November 30th, 1906." Mr. Hurley was Assistant Grand Chief under me, now dead. It is still in existence to-day, five years and a half. It was not a very temporary arrangement. If you gentlemen will concede that and guarantee it for five years and a half, I do not think there will be any contention about it at all. Eule 2 is: "That the engineers take positions as engineers of the electrician engines or multiple unit trains under the pre- vailing steam schedule, to be continued until the expiration of thirty days' notice, which may be given by either party after the electric operation is in full effect, with the understanding that at the end of such thirty days' notice, provided it is shown that the opportunity to make mileage on the electric engines and multiple unit trains is more advantageous to the men and to the company within the same number of hours than on the Steam locomotives, then, and in that event, the engineers will grant, to the company, or the company will grant to the men such concessions as are shown to be fair and equitable." 39 Either party to that contract could have done it in thirty days, yet it must have been fair and equitable, because it has continued five years and six months, and is in effect to-day. Mr. Duncan : You Brotherhood has notified us it is can- celled. Mr. Stone: We have notified you, yes Mr. Duncan: So it is not in effect; you have served the thirty days' notice. Mr. Stone: You are still paying it. Mr. Duncan : That is perfectly true. Mr. Stone : I make the statement it is still in effect. There ' has only been one General Manager out of 51 roads involved that lias sought to take advantage of the articles of the arbitra- tion agreement, and refused to pay the present going wage, saying that the whole thing was abrogated and he would not pay it until we had a ruling by this Board. It has been one of the unwritten laws through all these years, that during these controversies, that the present going wage has been paid until a settlement was reached, and either an increase or a new agree- ment written. It is true either party to the contract can open it on thirty days' notice, but advantage has never been taken of that by either side, and the gentlemen knows as well as I, that they are still paying that rate of pay, regardless of whether they consider it a contract or not. Mr. Morrissey: Before you leave that, would the adoption of this proposal of the engineers in any way affect the promotion of locomotive firemen to this service, any differently than from the present rules! Mr. Stone: No, sir; the promotion rule of firemen, for the promotion from firemen to engineers, would be just the same as now ; it would affect them in no way, neither would it deprive the firemen of the right to promotion to electric locomotives. Mr. Morrissey: Then, as I understand, the purpose of this proposal is to prevent the company making assignments to electric service differently than they make assignments to steam service. Mr. Stone : Will you say that again. Mr. Morrissey : I understand then, that the purpose of this proposal is, on your part, to prevent the companies from mak- GO ing any assignment to the electric service differently from the rule or practice of making them in the steam service. Mr. Stone: Exactly so. We want the same plan that they use in the steam service to be applied to the electric service. Mr. Van Hise: In that point there, yon have a discrimina- tion in the passenger service between 20 inches and more than 20 inches. Now, this electric service can very well be from very heavy to very light. In that yon make no discrimination. "Which is it to be! Mr. Stone : I understand that it will be carried on the lowest passenger rate, the $4.-10 rate. Mr. "Van Hise: That point is not made clear here. You see there are different classes for the steam engines Mr. Stone: There are different classes in the electric loco- motives ; some of the new ones are heavier than the others. Mr. Willard : It is a fact — I do not know whether or not it is a fact, but, if it is the fact, should not this Board know that the attitude of the engineers in that particular matter is objected to by certain other employes, for instance, the firemen and train- men, and particularly on the Pennsylvania Railroad, so that the whole matter is very much involved, the other classes of service feeling that they are as much entitled to these new positions that have been created as the engineers. I won't discuss here now whether or not they are entitled to that, but isn't it the fact that they claim that right? Mr. Stone : It is the fact, on the Pennsylvania, yes. It is also the fact that their principal objection was settled when we agreed to arbitrate the question. I shall be very glad to file with this Board the correspondence that passed between myself and the other organizations. Mr. Willard: They dispute that, don't they? Mr. Stone: The fireman objected, because they stated that it deprived them of promotion, but that could only be the conclusion of a biased mind, and, then, he would have to read between the lines. The conductors objected because a number of their mem- bers are now in the electric service, and they thought that they would be displaced. We do expect to take control of that class of service as soon as vacancies occur. Mr. Lee, of the Trainmen, and Mr. Garrison, of the Order of Railway Conductors, have both 61 agreed, in writing, and I will be glad to furnish the letters to the Board, to come here and approve of our position on the elec- tric service, with the understanding that we have as to the ap- plication of the rule. Mr. Van Hise: Have you considered at all the question of whether there should be differential charges in case of the men employed on these heavy electric locomotives, hauling passen- ger trains, and those who are employed in the multiple unit trains. Mr. Stone: No, we have not taken that into consideration Neither have we taken into consideration the fact that both the Pennsylvania and the New Haven are employing two of these electrics together and have only one man to operate both. We have not asked for additional compensation on that. Mr. Van Hise: For my own information, I should like to have furnished the different classes of electric service. Mr. Stone : I shall be very glad to give that to you. You mean the weight and tractive power of the electric locomo- tives, — the different types? Mr. Van Hise : Yes. Mr. Shaw: At the present time does the New York Central for example, make any difference at all in the payment between the man who operates the electric engine which hauls the pas- senger trains and the man who operates the multiple unit trains ? Mr. Stone: No, sir, the pay is the same; the steam rate. Neither do they make any difference between the man who operates a 16 inch and a 24 inch locomotive, it is $4.15. Mr. Judson: Have you got, anywhere in your papers, or will you offer a statement of what is paid by the different rail- roads on these different matters! Mr. Stone : Yes, sir, in this file here there is a statement of the rates paid. Mr. Morrissey: In the electric power service! Mr. Stone: It is the same there as in the steam, with the exception of the Pennsylvania, where they have a minimum of $5.00 for 160 miles, — the minimum day is 160 miles, 160 miles or less. There is 60 miles difference on the West Jersey & Seashore — they give 60 more miles in the electric service, on the Pennsylvania, than for steam. We will be glad to furnish that to you later, so that you can have it in detail. ■ 62 (The paper was marked "Engineers 7 Exhibit 9," July 15, 1912.) Mr. Van Hise: Yes, we ought to have it in detail. Mr. Stone: Is there any other question you would like to have on this electric service before passing it? v Mr. Morrissey: You spoke of the similarity of danger in -both classes. What are the dangers to the engineer of the "electric engine? Mr. Stone : Well, I think the best way to answer that is to file the statements compiled of the men killed or injured on the New Haven, from the shock of the electric current, and also the statements of the men on the Pennsylvania as to their opinion of the danger. (The paper was marked "Engineers' Exhibits 10 and 10A," July 15, 1912.) Mr. Stone: The great danger is in something short circuit- ing inside the cab and the man getting the shock from the cur- rent, and in pulling the switches, and even, at times, for no rea- son; the first thing they know, they have gotten a shock. We have several cases where men have been badly burned. We .have several cases on the New Haven, where they have the high voltage, where they have been killed, and I believe it has been demonstrated on the New Haven that a man does not have to come in contact with the wire, that its arcs from 12 to 14 inches. We had one case two years ago where a man was trying to get down the pantagraph trolley so as to pick up the contact at the junction with the New York Central, he had one of these long poles, and he reached over to pull the trigger out so the pantagraph would drop, and he got a full shock of the current of 11,000 volts, and he died in the hospital. There are numerous cases. It is almost of daily occurrence that men receive shocks. Mr. Judson: Those statements you speak of having com- piled there, are they statements which have come to your insur- ance organization? Mr. Stone: No, sir; these are statements furnished from the men employed on the road. Many of these men are in the service to-day, or they are men who have been burned so badly they are out of the service. The Chairman: It is claimed that the dangers to the engi- neer in the electric service are as great as those in the steam service. 63 Mr. Stone: It is more, if there is any difference. Take a man running one of these multiple unit trains, he is right in front of the train, and all he has between him and danger is a glass window, — 20 or 30 feet of glass. It is not like a steam locomotive. It is true, though, perhaps, they do not run long runs, but they do have the high current and we think it is in- creased instead of diminished. Mr. Worthington made the statement that the man learns to operate these cars in five days. It is true he learns to ope- rate the car in five days, but it is also true that he has already passed an examination on ail the signals, the book of rules,, and everything else, before he starts to qualify. He could not bring a green man in from the outside and teach him all the signals in five days. Mr. Worthington: It probably would take him a year,, wouldn't it? Mr. Stone: Some time. Mr. Worthington: It would take him about three years on the steam engine, and probably a year on the other. Mr. Stone: He is so busy shoveling coal on. the steam en- gine, he cannot learn as fast as sitting up as a helper on an electric engine. The late Edward A. Moseley, now dead, for- merly of the Interstate Commission, was going to write an arti- cle on the subject, and he asked me how often a fireman bent his back to the mile, on a heavy freight. The question was easy. After the man went into action, he never straightened up. He only bent it once. I know of no better way to taking up the question of freight rates than by making a comparison with the rates in force in other parts of the country. We are asking for: Engines with cylinders of 20 inches in diameter, or less, $5.25. Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter, and less than 24 inches in diameter, $5.50. Engines with cylinders 24 inches in diameter and over, ex- cept Mallets, $5.75. In the southeastern territory, on the Louisville & Nashville, we are paid $5.40 for all engines in the freight service ; no dis- tinction in regard to cylinders. On the other lines in the south we are paid $5.15 for engines under 21 inches, and $5.40 for 21 64 inches and over. They have a far better working condition than we are asking for here. They work on the eight-hour day. Their overtime begins after eight hours in service while we are only asking here for the ten-hour day. A man in, the service on the Louisville & Nashville would receive for ten hours $5.40, and overtime at 60 cents an hour ; if he works ten hours, he would get $5.40 for 100 miles, and two hours additional, or $1.20 in addition for overtime, making $6.60 for ten hours work. Mr. Judson: From what paper are you reading 1 ? Mr. Stone : Rates from the southern territory. Mr. Judson: That is submitted? Mr. Stone: I was keeping it for reference only. We will be glad to submit it. We have a copy here. The Chairman: Where is that taken from, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : Taken from their working agreements, and we will furnish the original agreements with it. The Chairman : It is not questioned. Mr. Stone : So you can see that they have much the best of the wage agreement if all that we ask for in the freight service was granted. At the time we made the working agreement in the southern territory, there were no engines in service over 24 inches. There is the new super-heater being put in now. The 'Southern Railway has put in a few, and I understand, although I haven't it officially, that they are paying the rate of $5.65 on a nine-hour basis. The Southern Railway and the Queen & Crescent have the nine-hour day. The other roads in the south have eight hours. Mr. Van Hise : Have you, in that connection, any data indi- cating the number of men, or the percentage of men who take the ten hours — what proportion of men complete the 100 miles in ten hours. It might be that 90 per cent, of the men would com- plete their time in eight hours. Mr. Stone: I haven't any data on that. Perhaps the other side will be able to furnish that to you. I would be glad to think that ninety per cent, of our men were getting over the road in eight hours, but I am afraid it is not the fact. Mr. Van Hise : I do not say it is, I say assuming that. Mr. Stone : If he could get over the road in six hours, and make 100 miles service, I think he Would be entitled to it just the same. 65 Mr. Morrissey : Have you any knowledge of the relative per- centage of slow and fast freight in that territory"? Mr. Stone : No, I have not. I have no way to get that. No doubt the other side can give it. Mr. Morrissey: What is your knowledge of conditions gen- erally with regard to slow and fast freight! Mr. Stone : I question very much if over 25 per cent, of the freight traffic is fast freight. I am speaking now just offhand. Fast freight on many of these roads, is a misnomer. They put in about as many hours as the slow freight man does, and both of them ought to be tied up under the law before they get in. Mr. Morrissey: What percentage of the freight would be fast on a road like say the Hocking Valley 1 ? Mr. Stone : I don't believe the Hocking Valley ever had any fast freight. I have never seen anything down there but coal trains. They may have had a few, Mr. Chairman, but they would be the exception instead of the rule. Mr. Morrissey: Take the Wheeling & Lake Erie. Mr. Duncan: Don't run anything but high speed trains on the Wheeling & Lake Erie, with a maximum of 18 miles an hour — that is our 18 hour train; we do not like to pay wages on that 18 hour basis either. Mr. Stone: And the engineer doesn't like to receive wages on that 18 hour basis either. Mr. Duncan: But he gets paid overtime by his minimum time. Mr. Stone: It has been impossible for me, Mr. Chapman, in compiling the data of the types and tractive power of the engines, to get the weight of the Mallets. I haven't found any of our men who were able to give it to us. Mr. Worthington: We will file that. Mr. Stone: We believe that a comparison of these freight rates that we are asking here will compare favorably with the rates paid in the South and West. Working conditions will not compare favorably with the working conditions in the south- eastern territory, because you will find the nine hour day on the two lines spoken of, and the eighteen hour day on the rest. Mr. Judson: Is that in the southern territory! Mr. Stone: Southeastern. Take the Norfolk & Western, which is one of the competitors between Chicago and tidewater, 66 running over a mountain district, where the tonnage is light, on a nine hour day. There is only one other line north of the Ohio Eiver on a nine hour basis,' and that is the Chicago divi- sion of the Chesapeake & Ohio, although their rate is not quite so high as here. I have an agreement with them, which I shall be glad to file here, that any addition had here, if any, wiM bft added to their present rate, and they will remain on the nine hour basis. Unfortunately there is no going rate for the 24 inch and over in diameter. Outside of the Southern Railway, I do not know of any road in the South that has put them in. In the West, the Illinois Central has placed 100 of these engines in service. We have the rates in dispute now with the Western Conference of Managers, in regard to what rates should be paid. We claim, under their agreement, they should pay $5.65, and they, taking advantage and claiming, by a piece of what we, in plain English, call sharp practice, that it should be $5.40, and the case is in dispute now. The Mallet type of engine has to be run to be really appre- ciated. The question is if it will ever be profitable to make an adequate rate for a Mallet engine, and I also believe that every Mallet engine that was ever built has made four anarchists, because it takes two crews to keep it going. Mr. Morrissey: Will you explain what a Mallet engine is, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : A Mallet engine is two engines coupled together under one boiler, and it works that steam compound, except the one on the Pennsylvania, and it is really two consolidation engines coupled together under one boiler. It is an ordinary consolidation engine with a tractive power from about 38.000 1 to 48,000 and 49,000 pounds. The mallet engines, according to the different weights, have a tractive power from 70,000 to 118,000 pounds. They practically pull about twice the tonnag# and they are built for slow, heavy freight service. Another difficulty is they are a hard engine to run on account of the leakage of steam, they are a bad engine on which to see any- thing in the winter time due to the steam pipe working on a ball joint going through the front of the engine, and there is a constant clouding of steam there. A man really has to care for two engines and look after and keep up two engines; he has a tonger train haul on account of the tractive power of the engine which makes it harder for him to operate. 67 They are genera ly used where it is heavy, slow freight tonnage, and he will ban! all the way from seventy to one •hundred and thirty cars, and it is a pretty hard matter to keep them together, a pretty hard matter to handle them on the hills, and of necessity it means long hours, because a man cannot get anywhere on short time. The result is that we are asking $7.00 for the Mallet engine, and we think the rate is very low. Mr. Judson : What is paid now ? Mr. Stone: I think they vary from $5.85 up to $6.40' for eight hours. I think the Delaware & Hudson has a $6.40 rate for eight hours, and they are used in pusher service. A Voice : It is $6.50, 8 hours and forty minutes actual road time. Mr. Stone: $6.50, 8 hours and 40 minutes actual road time. There has only been a few of them since the rates were made before, and there are not a great many in the eastern territory at the present time, and we hope there will never be an}' more. Mr. Van Hise : The rates are given, I suppose, in your schedu'es for the west? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : Are there many of those locomotives in the western country ? Mr. Stone : I am speaking now just as a guess ; I think there is somewhere in the neighborhood, all told in the United States at the present time, of 343 Mallet engines in service. A great many of the roads are taking two of their old en- gines and making one Mallet of them. Take, for example, the Sante Fe: A few years ago they bought a number of what were classified at that time as Decapod engines, five drivers on a side. They hunted around for about two weeks to find a road they could get them out there on, they were such big engines at that time. Now they take two of those, engines, couple them together under one boiler, and make a Mallet of them, about 550,000 pounds on the drivers. You will understand, of course, there is a large increase in the earning power of the engine crew because they pull such a 68 heavy tonnage train, and they practically get the service of two engines with one engineer and one fireman and one trainman. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, do yon ask that these Mallets be placed on a ten mile an hour basis and on a 10 hour a day basis ? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Well, now, would that not be a reduction of pay from the existing rates on the New York Central and the Delaware & Hudson ? Mr. Stone : No ; I do not understand so. The New York Central Mallets are paid to-day $5.85 on a basis of ten hours ? Mr. Morrissey: On a basis of ten hours? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; in freight service. Here is the new Pennsylvania. That is not a compound, it is a simple. Mr. Morrissey: I understood Mr. Cadle to say it was oil an eight hour service? Mr. Stone: This was in pusher service; they are using them on a hill in pusher service. Mr. Cad'e: They have an hour preparatory time before they start and 20 minutes for inspection after they arrive. Xcw their time on active road service is 8 hours and 40 minutes; there is an hour and 20 minutes for preparatory and inspection time. Mr.. Stone: This is an engine built by the Pennsylvania Company and she is not a compound; all four cylinders use live steam, and it is the first one of its type that has ever been built. She is a Mallet engine really, two coupled together, and four live steam cylinders instead of being compounded or used the second time. Mr. Judson : They are only used in freight service '! Mr. Stone: There is only one in passenger service, and that is on the Santa Fe on the mountain division. Mr. Cadle : They use them on the Mountain Division of the Southern Pacific. Mr. Stone: There are a few of them in passenger seivice. but they were never calculated for high speed service; they are a slow, heavy freight engine, to drag heavy tonnage. We ask 100 miles or less, ten hours or less constituting a day's work, and that all over 100 miles be paid pro rata over- time to be computed on the basis of ten miles per hour and paid for pro rata. 69 That, of course, was the sentiment of the Managers ' As- sociation of the Eastern territory. I question that the solution of long hours is through legis- lation. AVe have tried for a numher of years to shorten our hours hy legislation, but it has not solved the problem. I think the cure for long hours is a penalty for overtime. So long as you can work the crew for the same rate of pay without an increase after a certain number of hours, so long will long hours continue to be put in service. If we could adopt the working- conditions of the other trades with time and a half overtime, or something along that line, 1 question if we would have so many long hours in service. And we are only asking for straight time pro rata. On a number of those roads the over- time rate is not as high as the rate per 100 miles divided by ten. In other words, after a man has worked ten hours and becomes good and tired, he starts in at the cheaper rate- -an incentive for some of the roads to work overtime. As one manager ex- pressed it, "A reasonable amount of overtime is a good invest- ment." It may be from an operating standpoint, but it is not a good investment from the standpoint of the locomotive en- gineer. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, I want to ask you a question which may be very difficult for you to answer , I suppose it will be. I just want to get a general impression. Mr. Stone : I would be glad to answer it. The Chairman: How much of this overtime work is done, counting a ten hour day? What percentage of the time is over- time! Mr. Stone : I do not know. The Chairman: Well, I supposed that would be difficult to answer. Mr. Stone : I do not think anybody perhaps could tell except the railroads themselves, but we do know this, that there is a great deal of it. I have prepared here, speaking of long hours, and which I desire to file with you — it is prepared by the Inter- state Commerce Commission, showing the number of crews on the ten roads that have been in continuous service over 16 hours, and some of the hours will pretty nearly scare you. Mr. Judson: Was this computation prepared hy the Inter- state Commerce Commission or hy you ! 70 Mr. Stone : By the Interstate Commerce Commission. (The paper referred to marked "Engineers' Exhibit No. 11.") Mr. Stone : I would refer you particularly to the last page where the summary is, and you will find these operating com- panies made no record prior to July 1st, 1911. From July 1st, 1911, to March 31st, 1912, inclusive, there Were 29,000 crews kept in service over 16 hours, and you will see there running along the hours 23 and 24 hours quite common, and you will see instances up as high as 73 to 79 hours' continuous service. Mr. Willard : Mr. Stone, you would not care to have the Board get the impression that the engineer was actually work- ing all that time in every instance, would you, where he was on duty, so-called? As a matter of fact, is it not generally the case when an engineer is on such a long period of time the train must of necessity he at a standstill on a side track, so that while the engineer, we will say, is about his engine, he is not actually performing dirty all that time. You would not like the Board to get that impression, would you? Mr. Stone: I would like the Board to get the idea that he is on duty, as far as any responsibility is concerned, and he is held responsible for every minute. Mr. Willard: But 'the responsibility is not exactly the same when the train is on passing track and remains there for eight, ten or twenty hours because, if you like, the train is unable to move. The. engineer would be on duty, but really simply wait- ing on his engine and perhaps sleeping. I only mention it because that does occur at certain times. Mr. Stone : It does occur. Mr. Willard: If we passed that over without mention, I think we would get a wrong impression. Mir. Stone: That does occur at times. Take, for example, the first road on the list; it certainly was not wrecks that kept those 11,200 trains lying on the side tracks in excess of 16 hours. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, does that necessarily imply that they were laying on side tracks? Mr. Stone : No ; he was probably digging aw)ay at a tonnage train as fast as he could He perhaps couldn't get anv phve but for a short time, and had to keep in to clear until he could 71 get a chance to go again and drag it along the best lie could.. ,In each of these cases he was lying on a side track. Mr. Worthington: While this looks formidable, it is not a fact that taking the period of a year the total number of trains that would be held under the 16 hour law would be only slightly more than half of one per cent, of the total number of trains" run? Mr. Stone: I could not say as to the total amount or the- percentage, but here is on ten roads 29,000 cases, and I will say to you very frankly that is 29,000 cases too many. 16 hours is long enough for any engineer to be on service. Mr. Worthington: For a year it was .69 of one per cent. We will furnish statistics for that. Mr. Stone: I simply submit the figures, and they speak for themselves, and whether it is one-tenth of one per cent, or what- ever it may be, it is 29,000 crews kept on duty too long. Mr. Worthington: As a matter of fact, have not all those cases been passed and approved by the Interstate Commerce Commission as being excusable cases'? Mr. Stone : I would rather not go into that, because I might say something that would not look well in print. But I believe they have been excusable cases and you and I also know that a number of the roads have pleaded guilty to violations of the law on a few counts and have been forgiven for the many. I know of one road in particular that pleaded guilty on 16 counts and were forgiven on 250. So I would rather not go into a dis- cussion of the Interstate Commerce Law and what they have excused. I realize we are not getting the results we expected to get when we had the 16 hour law pased, and I believe these train organizations will have to find some other solution for the long hours instead of going into legislation. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, it is five o'clock. If it is agree- able to you we will adjourn. Mr. Stone: Entirely so. The Chairman : I mean, can you break off here just as well as not? Mr. Stone : Any time or at any place. It does not matter to me. 72 The Chairman: The Board rather feels it has as much in- formation today as it can well digest in a day. Mr. Stone: What time will you want to meet tomorrow, .Mr. Chairman? The Chairman: The session will adjourn until tomorrow at 10:30 o'clock. Whereupon, at 5 :00 o 'clock P. M. the hearing was adjourned .to July 16th, 1912 at 10 :30 o 'clock A. M. to Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 16, 1912. 10.30 A. M. The Chairman : Gentlemen: We will call the Board to order. Mr. Stone, are you ready to proceed? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman : You have the floor. Mr. Stone: When we adjourned last evening, Mr. Chair- man, we were discussing the freight rates, or, rather, the article on freight rates, and we were discussing the rates for the dif- ferent types of engines. I want to call your particular attention to the fact that we are asking for the basis of 100 miles, or less, for a day, ten hour or less. I also want to draw the comparison between that and the lines of the southeastern territory where, with the exception of two roads, the Queen & Crescent and the Southern Railway, the basis is on an eight hour day. On the Queen & Crescent and the Southern the basis is on a nine hour day, except where the article is modified by a clause in their agreement. About 60 per cent, of the freight service of the Southern Railway is really on an eight hour day, because, by an article in the latter part of their agreement they have the time commence one hour before time called to leave. It is simply hidden away but shows in another column. They did not want to grant the eight hour day, but did give it to about 60 per cent, of the heavy freight service. We also ask that overtime be computed on the basis of ten miles per hour; that is, at whatever the daily rate may be for that class of engine, that it be divided by ten and that be the hourly rate for overtime. For example, on engines with cylinders over 24 inches in diameter, we ask for $5.75. The overtime rate would be 571/2 cents per hour. On a number of roads throughout the east the overtime rate is less than one-tenth of the daily rate. For example, they have the 100 miles or less, ten hours or less, for a day's work, and when they get on the overtime rate the overtime rate is less per hour. The result is that it is really an, object to work long- hours, because after a man has worked ten hours and com- mences to get tired he goes on a cheaper rate. So we ask that the overtime be paid pro rata on a ten mile per hour basis. 74 We also ask that through freight rates apply to mine runs, work, wreck, pusher or helper, milk, roustabouts and circus trains, according to class of engine. It is paid on that basis on some of the roads here represented now. The Chairman : Mr. Stone, may I ask you to give us some light upon that point? To railroad men that is all very clear, but some of us need some explanation of it. Mr. Stone: Mine runs are simply men in freight service who are assigned to mine work, who take a string of empties out and pull the loads out of the mines, and place the empty cars for loading, and they will probably work one mine, two mines, or perhaps five mines per day, and bring the loads back to the terminal, collecting the loads and bringing them into the terminal yards for the through freight service. It is called mine work, except on the Lackawanna and Delaware & Hudson, where it is called roustabouts. That is really mine work. I do not know where they got the term, but it is, perhaps, one of the things that grows up. I think it is perhaps because the man is working practically like the roustabouts in the old steamboat days, working all day, and does nothing but work. Mr. Judson: Switching work, is it not! Mr. Stone : No ; because often he has mine movements. Those cars are filled by train crews. It is a distinct service, because men working certain mines or a number of mines know exactly the class of work they want, they are more familiar with the work, and certain crews are kept in mine work in order to do the work satisfactorily to the mine owners, and facilitate the work. You put a man in on one of those big heavy mines, where there are hundreds or perhaps thousand of men employed, and it is very important that they have their loads moved out promptly and their empties placed for loading promptly, and they like to have a crew that is thoroughly fa- miliar with the work. Mr. Morrissey: How is this class of work classified under the present agreements of the roads represented in this arbi- tration ? Mr. Stone: On some of the roads they have a different rate, or differential rate, not quite so high as the through freight rate. On other roads the rate is the same; no distinc- tion is made in the rate. 75 We ask that we be paid through freight rates because we believe it is properly freight work, it is revenue freight ser- vice. Mr. Willard: May I ask this question? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: There is just one difference,, is there not, be- tween the mine work and the through freight work that might be considered, and that is that those men confined to the mine runs are usually at home every night and their expenses, on that account, would be less than those of the men on the through service who would be away from home. Mr. Stone : That is true, and they have regular hours also. However, it is on an hourly basis and not on a mileage basis at all, and they work every minute of the time. It is a hard, heavy service. A great deal of it is on very heavy grades around these different mines; it is dangerous work and it is particular work. It is a very easy matter to tear down some of the load chutes, or do something that will block the work of the mines for the day, and the mine owners are very particular as to how the work is done. Work train service is paid freight pay on a great percent- age of the roads. I think it would be safe to say that on 50 per cent, of the roads in the United States men in work train service and construction service, as it is sometimes termed, are paid freight rates. Some of the roads make a distinction between work train service and ballast service. Take, for example, the New York Central. The New York Central has a work train rate which is for men who operate a switch engine or some little light en- gine around the yard and picking up materials and things like that, and the ballast trains are the ones that do the work and haul the materials and supplies along the road, and they are paid the freight rate. We ask that the freight rate be paid for that because the men are out on the main line in these main line movements, in a great many instances. I think it requires the same efficiency and the same quality of being familiar with signals and so forth. Pusher and helper service. There are hardly two roads that handle that the same way. If a man couples in the rear of the train and pushes up a hill, he is a pusher and if he hitches 76 on in front he is a helper. It is done on grades to facilitate the movement of heavy trains, where one engine cannot make the movement of the heavy train alone. In many cases, like on the Pittsburgh Division of the Pennsylvania, they use both a pusher and helper. The pusher is on behind and the helper in front, and thus sometimes there are four engines to get the train up the mountain. It is really freight service. We used to have men who would couple on ahead and go for 30 or 40 or 50 miles on the train, and that man who was coupled on ahead was held responsible for the movement of the train, but he was working at a lower rate than the freight man going through, and we believe the service is identically the same, and think that they should be paid the same rate. Milk trains, on a majority of the roads, are paid now at the freight rate, although, as you know, they are run on pas- senger schedules, on account of getting the milk in for these large terminal cities. It is recognized that the trains are heavy, nothing but express cars, and there is a great deal of local work in the service, and the requirements are heavy, and they are paid freight rates on a great many of the roads. A circus train, I guess, is something that nobody really wants. I do not think the company wants to operate it, and I do not thing the men care particularly to pull them. It is customary to allow freight rates throughout the southern and western country, the minimum freight rate for a movement and overtime for additional hours. A very particular job, and they generally pick out the best crews, on account of the quality of the traffic — long heavy cars. The Chairman: What do you mean by a "circus move- ment"? Mr. Stone: Like Barnum & Bailey's Circus, moving those trains from point to point; probably unloading a show here today and starting in about six o'clock tonight loading, and as soon as the last performance is through the tents are struck and the loading is finished and the train is taken to the next point, probably arriving about daylight, and then they com- mence to unload. It is a very particular class of traffic, and, I guess, everyone heaves a sigh of relief when they get a circus- off their division. i I The Chairman: What rate is paid for that now? Mr. Stone : In a majority of ithe roads in the country freight rates are paid, with a minimum pay for each movement, and overtime after so many hours. We also ask that overtime be paid on a minute basis. There is something, I think, that per- haps has caused more friction and more cost to this organiza- tion in committee work, and perhaps more profanity on the railroads than any other one thing that happens. It is custom- ary, on most of the roads, if a man works, to allow him an hour after 31 minutes, and he gets nothing if it is under that, and if you will listen to the train crews, they will swear that they hold them out 29 minutes on purpose, and then release them so they cannot get in an hour, and if he works 31 minutes, the operating official will claim that he soldiered 2 minutes in getting down to the roundhouse, so as to make the hour. We ask that the actual time worked be paid for by dividing by 60, in other words, we are willing to give GO minutes' work for each hour's overtime, which we believe is a fair proposition. The Chairman : Has that been objected to '? Mr. Stone : It has all been declined. This is one of the ar- ticles we submit here. We believe the proposition is so fair that we are willing to give 60 minutes' actual service for each hour's service, and when we do that we think we have given our fair share and that they should not ask any more, and if that one article is granted, that one thing alone will do away with more local friction and more men being called in on the carpet, and more men being accused of trying to steal time than perhaps any one other thing in the railroad service. I am sure it will go a long ways toward bringing about that better feeling between employers and employes that both sides desire. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, what is the practice in that re- spect in the payment of other train employes in the eastern territory? Mr. Stone: I believe they are paid on the minute basis at the present time, and I know the locomotive engineers on per- haps 75 per cent, of the roads through the southern and western territory are paid on the minute basis. Mr. Shaw: On how many of the fifty roads concerned in this arbitration are they paid on the minute basis? Mr. Stone: I could not tell you offhand. I don't believe 1 ever — I think there are four or five, not over that, ont of the fifty. Mr. Judson: Is it your contention, Mr. Stone, that the principle of standardization that you have emphasized requires or should require that all of these regulations which you state now conform to the practice on some of the roads and not on some of the others of the 53 or 54 roads, that all of the 53 or 54 railroads could be subjected to one rule in regard to all these matters ? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; they apply that rule to-day to the train- men, conductors and yardmen, and we see no reason why the engineers should be an exception. We think it should be ap- plied to him. Mr. Judson: You do not concede that there are any local ■ conditions that affect any of these matters? Mr. Stone : No, sir. Mr. Judson: On which a different rule could properly be applied? Mr. Stone : No, sir, not if we are to have that standardiza- tion. In the fixing of rates and standardization of equipment and all that sort of thing, no local conditions are considered, and we believe it should be a standardization all the way through, and when we arrive at that standardization, I believe we would have gone a long way towards stopping a great deal of this friction which exists to-day at many of these local places, caused by local conditions. Mr. Morrissey : Will the adoption of these rules in general prevent the company and the employes of any line making rules to cover some special local conditions? Mr. Stone: No, sir; we carry that right in the last para- graph of these articles which reads as follows: "It is under- stood and agreed that existing rates of pay or better working conditions shall not be rediuced by the raites or rules hereby agreed upon nor shall General Committees of Adjustment be debarred from taking up with their respective managers matters not decided at this conference. ' ' It would not debar any com- mittee or any management from taking up with their employes any local condition that might exist. Mr. Judson: Not decided by these articles, but would it 79 not prevent them from departing from any of these matters-, that you have here? Mr. Stone : So far as the principal trade down here is con- cerned, it would, yes, sir. So far as the question of overtime is concerned, if it is ever tried once on the minute basis, I do not believe they would ever want to depart from it. Mr. Eidlitz: It is not a fact, Mr. Stone, that there are a very appreciable number of roads in this controversy now working on this basis! Mr. Stone : I believe there are five or six of the larger roads in the eastern territory that are putting it in that way. I could not say offhand. I could give the figures by going into the agreement. The Chairman: How is it in regard to the other railroads that are not in this controversy, the southern and southwestern divisions!? Mr. Stone: I think it is safe to say that 75 per cent, of those pay on the minute basis. Mr. Shaw: I suppose we should hear from the other side a discussion from their standpoint of this particular matter. Mr. Stone: I have no doubt the other side will have some- thing to say on this. We also ask in this article that engin- eers be paid at overtime rates for all time over fifteen hours held at other than the home terminals. We take the position, gen- tlemen of the Board, that all a man has to sell is his labor, and when the time arrives that he has no labor to sell, I am sure he will not be railroading. We take the position that the company should get the man back. If he lays 15 full hours at another terminal away from home under expense subject to the commands or instructions of the company, and not able to earn one penny while he is waiting, that 15 hours is long enough for him to give of his time, and under ordinary operations they should be able to get him back or start him back within 15 hours, from other than his home terminal. The Chairman: May I ask you, what is the condition now in regard to that? Mr. Stone : They do not pay it. They keep you there until they get a train for you, if it is a week; and if we are to be- lieve the statements of some of our men, they believe that a great deal of this laying away is unnecessary, and that our men 80 • are run away from home and run light to bring back tonnage from the other end of the road, and will probably lay there 24 to 36 hours waiting for it, and they do not think it is neces- sary to run that man away from home in order to do that, and they believe if the companies had to pay for over 15 hours, that men would be allowed to remain at home much more than they do today. Mr. Shaw: Is that a point upon which there has been any statistical report made, either by a public commission or ■ otherwise 1 ? Mr. Stone : Not that I know of. Mr. Shaw: I mean so as to determine averages and so on. It never has been worked out in a statistical way? Mr. Stone : We have, at the present time, on all the railroads in the southeastern territory the principle that a man is paid for this. We do not like the hours. We have 28 hours in the ■south, and if a man has waited 28 hours and one minute at other than his home terminal, he is paid ten hours at overtime rate, and he is also paid ten hours for each 24 hours so held after that period. Mr. Van Hise: The 15 hour time struck me as an odd time to select. Why was 15 hours selected as the time? Mr. Stone : Because we thought it was fair. I had an article written, on the Central Eailroad, to charge for 18 hours, and all over 18 hours would be at straight overtime rate. I took sick in ; Savannah and came home, and after I came home, by some means that I have never known yet, the Committee gave that article up again. They traded it for something else, and they got the worse of the swap. But we think that 15 hours is a long enough period. Mr. Van Hise : Fifteen hours is not any established fraction of 24 hours. Mr. Stone : We would be perfectly willing to cut the 24 hours in two for easy figuring and make it 12 hours, if it will make any easier work for the statitician or timekeeper. We are perfectly willing to make it on an even hour basis, if it will figure any better. Mr. Van Hise -. They would be willing to make it 24 hours. The Chairman: I think the railroads will claim 18 hours will work as well as 12 hours. 81 Mr. Stone : I think the railroads will claim they ought not to pay it at all. That has been their position in the past at least, and will be now unless they have had change of heart. Mr. Worthington : The railroads do not wilfully hold a man away from his home terminal. Mr. Stone : I know they tell us that, but when a man is held away two or three days, it is hard to make him believe it. Mr. Worthington: Where do they do that? Mr. Stone : I think we can show figures. Mr. Worthington : I should like to see them. Mr. Stone : I think there are cases on the Wheeling & Lake Erie where men are held away two or three days. Mr. Worthington: Not unless there was some pressure that made it necessary. There is no object in keeping him away from home, and we would not gain anything by it. Mr. Stone : If you have to pay him on 15 hours, we think you would get him back. That is the object of this article. Mr. Worthington : Penalty time. Mr. Stone: It is penalty time, if you choose to call it such. We believe when a man has given up many hours of his life laying there subject to some man's call, that he has done his share. Mr. Worthington: Ten hours of the 15 would be for rest according to law, would it not? Mr. Stone: It would depend on how long he had been on duty. Mr. Worthington: When he is away from his home terminal, you have got to give him time to rest. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make just one point right here, with your permission. The Chairman: Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : I am simply presenting the case as the advocate of the engineers, and I am not a witness on the witness stand, and I am not subject to cross examination while I am presenting my case. The Chairman : Yes. I think that the object of these ques- tions is just to elucidate more than anything else; that is the main purpose. Mir. Stone: All right, if that is the object, I am perfectly 82 willing to answer any questions, but if I am simply to be cross- examined as a witness, I take the position I am the advocate for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, to present their case in a general way. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Van Hise: I understand, Mr. Stone, you do not object to the Arbitrators asking questions, but you object to the coun- sel for the companies asking you questions? Mr. Stone : Not at all. When Mr. Worthignton is present- ing his case, I will listen to him with a great deal of attention, and I am very sure I shall not ask any questions until he is through. If I do not agree with some of his statements, I shall try to rebut them by testimony from witnesses on the other side, and when I get the witnesses on, by whom I hope to prove these things, they, of course, are subject to cross-examination. Mr. Worthington: I apologize. I was just making this point clear. Mr. Stone: No apology is necessary. The question came up yesterday whether I should be sworn, and I claim that I am not a witness here, but am here as the advocate for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers,, presenting their case. I believe, I have made plain to you why we asked for this laying away from other than home terminals. You understand the principle lying back of it. They choose to call it penalty time. I do not care what term we apply to it. We believe that after a man has run away and gone to another terminal, has laid there for 15 hours, that he certainly has been there long enough subject to call. He cannot go anywhere, he cannot do anything but sleep. If he leaves his boarding house for thirty minutes, he has to let them know where he is. He is liable to call at any time, and if the caller does not find him when he goes after him, he is disciplined. It is just like a man being in the regular army. His time is not his own. It is not as if he went to another terminal and they said to him, "You can go so-and-so," but he cannot even go downtown without letting him know and getting permission. At a good many of our towns, they do not allow a man to leave home. Mr. Shaw: He is subject to call. Mr. Stone : Yes, and when he has given 15 hours for noth- ing, we think he has done his share, and if they are going to hold him longer than that, we think they should pay him for it. 83 We ask that 25 cents additional, on 100 miles or less, be added to through freight rates for local service, according to class of engine. Local service is a train that handles the package way freight, goes along and unloads the small loads of freight at these different stations, it does all the station switching, the placing of cars at different places, picks up and collects the loads for the through freight service, and it is largely a ques- tion of there being a man on a local freight, generally in an assigned crew, that has a regular run every day. They become familiar with the work so they can do it more expeditiously than a new crew coming in; they know about what every man wants along the run at every place, they know where the differ- ent shipments go and all that, and it is a recognized principle on over 90 per cent, of the roads of the west and south, that 25 cents additional be paid for local freight on account of the fact that it is all work the full limit of hours, or nearly so, and a constant switching around that a man on through freight perhaps does not do. He couples on his load, perhaps, and goes along, it is true, at a slow movement, but he does not do much picking up and setting out, does not do the local station switching in many places on the smaller stations. It is true at all the big termi- nals they have switching engines, but they handle the package freight and set our cars at the different warehouses and differ- ent freight houses, so they can load and unload freight, which is done by the freight crew, often assisted by the freight help- ers, and we ask 25 cents additional be paid for this work for the type or class of engine on that train, and that 25 cents additional per 100 miles be added to it over the through freight The rate in the switching service is not in my opinion high enough. We ask for $4.50 per day, ten hours or less to con- stitute a day's work, and all over ten hours to be paid for pro rata, overtime to be computed on the minute basis. It used to be, in the old days, that the job of switching was quite a snap, because he stood on the sidetrack so much of the time doing nothing. That day has gone with many of the other good old days of railroading. If there are switch engines standing od the spot at the present time, resting, I do not know the location of them. The man works every minutes of the time, and it is 84 hard, heavy service. Many of our roads no longer have a switch engine to do the work, they take the heavy road engines to do that work in the yard. They are not adapted for switch- ing service; the space between the side of the boiler and the cab is so narrow that a man of my size cannot stand between - the reverse lever and the cab, there isn't room. He will have to walk forward and back every time he changes the reverse lever, in switching. This is true on many of the road engines built for road service, which are now used for switching ser- vice. In fact, a number of the roads do not buy any switch- ing engines any more. They simply get the service out of the road engines. It is a hard heavy service, and I think $4.50 for ten hours is the least that should be paid, and we ask that the overtime be computed on the minute basis, the same as in road service. It is nothing unusual to see a yardmaster time a man, with a watch in his hand, and allow him to work 26 or 27 min- utes overtime, and then call him in, so he will not get the hour overtime. In -fact, a number of the officials have acknowledged that they issued such instructions when we have had the cases up. They get all out of the men they can, not to give any overtime. Mr. Judson: Do you think there ought to be any latitude in that provision for local conditions? Difference between crowded terminals, in great cities, and smaller places. Mr. Stone: No, sir. I think, if anything, the man at the smaller terminal, while he has not the responsibility of signals and congestion of traffic, the chances are he will work just as hard, and in many of the small places it is a main line move- ment, where he is in the face of the main line trains and has to look out for the main line trains. So, we think there should be no distinction made between the two. I call your attention to the fact that some of the roads are paying as high rate as this now ^_jn_ _some few except ional^ cases^^y There is only one" road in the eastern territory that has put the freight yards' on an eight hour day; that is the New Haven, and when a man is in the switching service on that eight hour day, he never misses a switch, if there is anything happens to his engine another en- gine is brought to him from the house and he goes right on; he does not stop at all ; he does not stop for anything. It is a 85 straight eight hours, as fast as he can go. Later on, we will put one of these men on the stand to explain to you what they 'think of an eight hour day in yard service. Mr. Morrissey: How would you wish us to treat the situa- tion on the New Haven in connection with this proposition; are you willing that the service of the New Haven should be ex- pended from an eight to a ten hour day! Mr. Stone: No, I do not think we would be willing to do^ that, neither do I think the company would be willing to do it ; because it is an open secret that they are getting more out of their man than they ever did under the system of two shifts. The Chairman: What is the New Haven paying for the eight hour day! Mr. Stone: $3.50 for the eight hours. Mr. Morrissey : Was it your intention to protect such a sit- uation as the New Haven by the last paragraph of your prop- osition! Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; where rates are better, or where work- ing conditions are better, we would expect to hold them. As I stated in the beginning of my address, we do not want to give away anything. We think we are entitled to all we have got. Mr. Judson : But as I understood you, you do not approve of the New Haven arrangement. Mr. Stone: I did not approve! It is not for me to say whether I approve of it or not. The company makes the condi- tion, and I guess it is fairly satisfactory to both sides; any more than I know it is eight hours heavy straight work. Mr. Judson : Would not that go to show that these matters have to be adjusted to local conditions! Mr. Stone : Not necessarily so. Mr. Eidlitz: Don't you mean in the New Haven it would be $3.60 instead of $3.50 for the eight hour shift! Mr. Stone: No, I expected the $3.50 would have the same rate per hour on the increase. Mr. Eidlitz: That would make it $3.60, would it not! Mr. Stone: 41 cents an hour is the present rate in the ten hour yards and we are asking $4.50. Mr. Morrissey: What is it in an eight hour yard! Mr. Stone: $3.50 for eight hours. Mr. Morrissey: That is 43 cents, plus, an hour! 86 LMr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: You are asking for 45 cents an hour? Mr. Stone: It is better than what we are asking for it is n better condition than what we are asking for. Mr. Judson: Are any of the roads paying $4.50 now? Mr. Stone : I think there are some few yards on the Penn- sylvania that pay more than $4.50 for ten hours. Haven't you got more than the $4.50 rate? Mr. Park: 43%' cents an hour is the highest. Mr. Stone: 43^2 cents an hour is the highest. Mr. Park: 44.8 on the New York Division. Mr. Stone : That is what I thought,., 44.8 on the New York end. Mr. Judson: Then that is very near it? Mr. Stone : Very close to it. I do not think it is necessary ■to take up your time in dwelling any length -of time on the switching service. Later on we will have a couple of witnesses to prove to you the quality of work they are doing and the ' amount of hours they are putting in, and I think they will convince you beyond any question as to their request. "* Helper men and "engineers in Belt Line service shall be paid $5.00 per day, ten hours or less to constitute a day. All over ten (10) hours 50 cents per hour. Overtime to be computed on minute basis." Belt Line service is called by some of the roads transfer service. It is a man transferring from one yard to another, and the Belt Line service is perhaps transferring to a dozen different roads around the city. Take for example, a man in and around the Chicago terminails. In that transfer service he has no regular hours; he is called whenever there is a train to deliver day or night; practically freight service I say it is, and it is what it should be paying, but there has always been a distinction. That man will perhaps pass an examination on half a dozen different railroads on time cards, books of rules and signal operation. He will go from one yard to the other, and will be gone anywhere from 10 to 15 hours making his round trip. He may sit down and pick up three or four differ- ent trains during that time, and he will probably run anywhere from 30, 40, 50 miles to perhaps 120 miles; but he is paid on the hourly basis and it is heavy work with great heavy engines of ten times handling from 70 to 100 loads, and when a man 87 goes away from his home road and gets over on a foreign road he is pretty nearly without friends and he has to go pretty straight down the line if he keeps out of trouble. And these men have the conditions on perhaps half a dozen different roads to contend with. We ask a higher rate for them, than the switch- ing, service proper, where a man switches on his own rails all the time perhaps, and in his own yard and in many cases makes no main line movements at all. Mr. Judson: Is it not true that in some yards, some belt lines, the service is much more complicated and hazardous than it is in others? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. There are not very many belt lines in the country, only a few. Mr. Morrissey: Will you present us with a statement of the points on different roads that you describe as belt line ser- vice ? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir, I will be glad to. Mr. Morrissey: If you do not, and we deal with the mat-, ter as you have presented it, I think there is liable to be a de- cided difference of opinion as to what is and what is not belt line service. Mr. Stone: Or, in other words, it would be hard to draw the distinction between transfer service and belt line service, is that the idea? Mr. Morrissey: Yes, or belt line service and through freight service. Mr. Stone : We would be glad to present you with a list of the places where we expect this rate to apply, and we will file it with you later, before we close. Mr. Judson : You would call the conditions at East St. Louis and St. -Louis belt line service, would you not! Mr. Stone : I would think it would come under belt line service. I am not familiar enough with the territory. Mr. Cadle can answer that. Mr. Cadle : The Terminal Association, do you mean? Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Cadle: The Terminal Association fixes a special rate for their engineers, working in that transfer service. They pay a higher rate than they pay in any of the other yards in St. Louis for switching service. ys Mr. Judsori: Then your purpose, as I understand it, ilr. Stone, is to fix a minimum charge and pay as much more as they want or can agree upon. Mr. Stone : Oh, yes, they can pay more, but it is not at all likely they will after this arbitration is handed down. Mr. Judson : Would not that have the effect of cutting down the pay in some places where, on account of exceptional conditions, they are paid more? Mr. Stone: Five dollars for ten hours' work? No, I think I am safe in saying we will accept five dollars for ten hours on belt line service, and ask that engineers of single crew yard belt line engines may report for duty at the appointed time, and receive their one-half hour pay in addition, for this work. You understand that the engineers of single crew engines, just like engines on local freight, that have regular hours, a. large majority of them, are not called at all ; they report at a certain time. He must be ready. For example, a man is going to work this morning at seven o'clock, and he must be there at least by 6:30. He must have his engine already, inspected, supplies and everything else ready to move, because the min- ute the gong taps at 7 o'clock, and the signalman gives him the signal to move, he has to be ready to move or explain why. For that time he does not receive any pay. We believe there should be an arbitrary allowance of thirty minutes, if he is required to report at that time, and to get his engine ready. On double crew engines, unless they relieve one another immediately; when the engine — as soon as it comes in, without any time for inspection or anything else, a man leaves the en- gine, and the other engineer goes on, he takes it for granted that the engine is all right, and keeps on going until perhaps the lunch hour comes — in that case we do not ask for the man relieving to receive the thirty minutes, but if the engine comes in, say, at night, at six o'clock, and the night man does not have to go on duty until seven or eight o'clock, we ask that each one of those crews on a double crew engine be paid thirty minutes for the preparatory time in getting the engine ready, and registering the time slip and so forth. The Chairman: Explain what you mean by a double crew engine f Mr. Stone : That is an engine that works 24 hours perhaps, 89 a day; two shifts of men. One crew going on this morning at seven o'clock, and working until perhaps five or six o'clock at night, and another crew going on at seven o'clock at night, and working until say seven o'clock to-morrow morning. That is a double crew engine; two sets of men worldng one engine, and she works constantly, and unfortunately we haven't quite arrived at the time when a man can work constantly. We have pretty nearly done it on our long freight trains, but we have not quite done it yet — 40 or 50 hours is about the limit, and for some reason he begins to play out. The service is contin- uous. The demands of the service required that the engine be worked constantly, and perhaps 50 or 00 per cent, of the switching crews are what are called double crews, and work a day and night shift. The Chairman : I understand you to say if a day begins at seven o'clock, you want compensation for half an hour prior to seven o'clock. Mr. Stone : If the men would have to commence switching at seven o'clock, he would have to report by six thirty, and get his engine all ready, to know that he has sand, coal and water, and the necessary equipment on his engine, and the engine oiled, and everything ready to move the minute the time is up. Mr. Judson: Isn't that allowed for now? Mr. Stone: No, he comes around and does it. On perhaps five per cent, of the roads in the east, there is some time al- lowed; on the others there is no time allowed; he does it/ on his own time. This is the only class of men that I know of that are required to come around and work an hour or sc/free, gratis, and get things ready so as to do a good day'sywork. Mr. Eidlitz: Am I to understand that, if an engineer re- ports half an hour before he goes to work, that he is to be compensated for that half hour if he does go to work, or does not. or in both cases? Mr. Stone: If he does go to work. If he does not do any- thing, it is covered, in most of the agreements, that he would be paid at least so many hours if called and not used. They Are not going to call very many of them out and not use them. The chances are there will be work for them. Mr. Judson: You do not provide for that contingency? 90 Mr. Stone: Not in these articles, no, sir. That is covered in most of the agreements. I think in perhaps all of them. They used to call a man, and after he got around there they would tell him they did not want him. Now, it is, in almost every agreement that he shall be paid for a certain number of hours, if he is called; some more penalty time, if you please. "Beginning and ending of a day." "In all classes of road service an engineer's time will com- mence 30 minutes before leaving round-house or designated track and will conclude at the time the engine is placed on the designated track, or relieved by hostler at terminal." We ask that for the same reason that we ask it for the switch engineer. A man must get around to the round house or wherever his engine is, on the storage track, and get the engine ready. He must know that the necessary supplies are on for the trip. In many of these roads he has to fill his own lubricators, for the feeding of valves and oiling of the piston and valves, he must know that the engine is equipped with sand and water and coal, and if it is on roads where they scoop water, he must know that his scoop will work. He must know that the sand pipes are open. In many of the roads the grease cups are put on the crank bearings, and he has to see that they are screwed down and the lock nuts are fastened so they wont chatter loose when the engine goes into service. He must oil the engine and have every- thing ready to move. In many places he is required to be ready to move from 30 minutes to an hour or an hour and a half before he leaves the terminal. The Interstate Commerce Commission has ruled that a man's time begins when the responsibility begins, and ends when the responsibility ceases. In many places a man is required to re- port thirty minutes to an hour before the time he leaves, and in a number of cases has been disciplined for some failure, or for getting into trouble before his pay has commenced, as engineer. In many places he is required to be down and all ready to move and if anything happens to the boiler or engine, or if any of the things are not ready, he is disciplined for it, yet he has not com- menced to earn any money, and does not receive any pay. The Chairman : What does he do during that time you speak of, during the half hour, hour or hour and a half? Mr. Stone: We have places in this country where men in 91 passenger service must be on their teams, and ready to leave — they must be around on their trains in order to get them from the storage yard or the coach yard, which is perhaps five or six miles away. Mr. Judson: What term did you use there, storage yard? Mr. Stone: That is where the cars are stored. Mr. Judson : You used another term. Mr. Stone : The coach yard or storage yard, where the train is laid up to be cleaned, and all that. Mr. Shaw : If a man has to bring his train in from the storage yard several miles away, therefore actually operating his loco- motive, does not the pay begin until the schedule hour for the train to start out from the station 1 ? Mr. Stone: In some places it does not when the distance is not very great, but in other places where it is four or five miles out, he might receive pay for the four or five miles and may re- ceive 15 or 20 cents for working an hour and a half getting the train into the terminal, and in cold weather getting the train warmed up. I think we have places where, in zero weather, a man is required to be on his train an hour and twenty minutes before leaving time to get it heated up. Mr. Van Hise : If a man runs 100 miles in four hours or five hours in passenger service and his day is a five hour maximum, we will have for a hundred miles, suppose that he made his run in three hours and a half, then is this initial terminal delay put in of one hour and a half to make the five hours, is that the idea ? Mr. Stone : I have not got down to the initial terminal delay as yet. Mr. Van Hise : I did not understand it. Mr. Stone : But I catch the idea you have there, and I will be glad to explain it in a minute, when I get through with the, beginning and ending of the day. Mr. Van Hise: I just wanted to understand it. Mr. Stone : I will explain it to the best of my ability, in a few moments. I think you understand the underlying princi- ples back of this without my going into detail. We take the position that a man ought not to give service for half or three quarters of an hour in getting ready, without being paid for it. The other side will make the claim that is the work inci- 92 dental to the trip. Well, there is too much work incidental to the trip. The engineer is largely a man who works by piecework, on the same principles, exactly. For every mile run he receives so many cents, with a maximum of a hundred miles for a day, and when he has delivered those 100 pieces, or miles, if you please, there is not anything more coming to the company for that day. He has given the value received and has carried out his contract. It is additional work. The Chairman: Where he has not given the 100 miles? Mr. Stone : It is up to the company to get the 100 miles out of him, if they put him out in service. The minimum day of 100 miles is so well established that it has been a recognized factor in all the wage scales of all the locomotive engineers for years, and if you put it down to the actual miles, why, it used to be — I have known cases where they would haul a man out of bed, with perhaps 20 degrees below zero, and have him go out seven miles, and he got as much as 30 or 40 cents for having his rest broken in the middle of the night, to take a train out on the road seven miles, or to help a train up a hill, or something of that kind ; so, we have established the minimum day, and that prin- ciple is well established, Mr. Chairman, and it is recognized by 90 per cent, of the roads. Mr. Judson : You say, 100 miles is the minimum recognized? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; the standard for computing the day's wage. Mr. Judson : In many cases, the engineers work more than that, do they not ? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. If they do they are paid for it, pro rata, for the miles over 100; practically piecework with a minimum day established. Mr. Judson : I have noticed that the trains' on the Vahdalia Boad, which I go on frequently, change locomotives, I think, at Terre Haute, going from Indianapolis west. I think that is some 80 or 90 miles, but I am not sure about that. Are you fa- miliar with that? Mr. Stone : No ; I do not know the territory. Mr. Cadle : 73 miles. Mr. Stone : 73 miles? Mr. Cadle says he used to run in that territory. 93 Mr. Judson: The engineer then would have a trip back the same day? Mr. Cadle : Yes, sir, run an extra trip in that day. Mr. Stone : A round trip, so there is no constructive mileage there. He starts back in the same calendar day, the same day. Mr. Judson : Are not these matters in these two paragraphs, here, largely regulated and adjusted according to local arrange- ments and agreements on the different railroads of tne country? Mr. Stone: Not in this eastern territory. We have been trying to regulate and adjust them for the last 20 years but,, unfortunately, have not arrived at it yet. Mr. Judson: How is it fixed on these 50 roads? Mr. Stone : There are about as many different plans as there are roads. Mr. Judson : You think that is a matter that could properly be standardized ? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir ; no reason why it should not be that we can see from our standpoint. I know of no otUer class of work where the man is required to come down and spend an hour in getting ready to do a day's work. If they are ready to go to work on the hour required for them that is enough. Yet in many places in the country men come down two hours and three hours earier, as we will show you gentlemen here. Mr. Judson : The engineer is not required to keep his engine in order, is he 1 Mr. Stone : No, sir. Mr. Judson : He does not do any repair work on the engine ? Mr. Stone: No, sir. Mr. Judson : It is done for him. Mr. Stone : They have machinists to do the repair work and boiler makers. Mr. Judson: That extends to every repair, does it not, on the engine ? Mr. Stone : Oh, yes, except breakdowns on the road. A man is supposed to get his engine in, if it is possible to do so, but he does not do any repair work in the house. In many cases he does not inspect the engine; an inspector inspects it in the pit. It is almost impossible to inspect a modern locomotive without having it over a pit and getting underneath it. 94 Mr. Judson: But the engineer does not have to do that! ' Mr. Stone: He does not have to do that, and yet the engi- neer is held responsible for engine failures on the road, and he had better know before he starts out if the engine is right, if he .wants to keep out of trouble. Mr. Jndson: How can he know the condition of the engine? Mr. Stone: By making the inspection. And what he can- not see. especially on our limited runs, many of our men go to the roundhouse two or three hours before and give the engine a thorough inspection. A man has only one life, and he has to live but once and run a locomotive anyway, and before he starts out on a 60 or 70 mile stretch without a stop, he wants to know if everything is all right, and h<^ had better know, A he is a successful inm; in fast service. The "'initial tc-nninal delay." "When delayed within the terminal as much as one hour beyond the time set to leave en- gineers will be paid one hour's overtime at overtime rates ac- cording to class of engine. One hour and 30 minutes to con- stitute two hours, etc. If road overtime is made on same trip inilial overtime will be deducted." The Chairman: May I just ask you one question there. Why don't you continue the request for the minute basis here? You .say one hour and 30 minutes to constitute two hours, and so iorth. Mr. Stone: Yes. Why don't we? Where would you start the minute basis, from the beginning? We would be glad to have it that way, but I rather think the other side would object. We are willing to give one full hour, that much leeway for time perhaps for making up a train or some delay that could not ■be foreseen. The object in initial terminal delay, if you please, is penalty time again, if you choose to call it that term. We want to do away with this thing of calling a man out of bed perhaps in all kinds of weather or perhaps calling him long hours before they want him and the train probably has not left the other terminal yet. It is nothing unusual for a man to be called three or four or five hours before they want him, and sit around on his engine waiting for his train to come. Mr. Judson : Take this case, suppose a passenger train is to start out and has to wait for connections or wait for the mail, 95 we will say, and the train stands in the station for an hour or two, is the engineer paid for that time? Mr. Stone: At the terminal before he leaves, do you mean,, or somewhere along the road? Mr. Judson: Before he leaves, if the train does not start and waits for a connection. Mr. Stone : On many of the roads he would be paid for all over one hour; if he laid one hour and ten miuntes after it is time to leave he would be paid an hour's overtime. If he laid there an hour and 30 minutes after schedule time to leave, he would get two hours, and so forth. Mr. Judson : Suppose a train was held five hours, a locomo- tive waited for a train to come in, would the engineer be paid for it? Mr. Stone: He should be paid for it, and that is what we are asking. Mr. Judson: Is he paid for it now? Mr. Stone : On a large number of the roads, yes, sir. The principle is well established and recognized. Mr. Judson: Are there anywhere he is not? Mr. Stone : Yes, there are a good many roads in this eastern territory where there is not such a thing as initial terminal de- lay. Mr. Judson: Suppose a train, we will say, at a station on one of our through lines, is delayed four or five hours or five or six hours, as we have all been delayed. Mr. Stone: At one of the intermediate stations? Mr. Judson: And if an engine is standing there waiting to- take the train, would he not be paid ? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir, under this article he would. Mr. Judson: I mean, without this article? Mr. Stone : No, sir, on many of the roads he would not re- ceive anything. It might be possible for you to get pay under those conditions in overtime, but on many of these roads in passenger service there is no overtime rate and there is no basis for computing overtime. Take for example, a road that I am very familiar with, the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, there the overtime is after ten hours. Ten hours is a long time ; a man might lay there five or six hours, and on a fast train go over a 100 mile division in four hours or perhaps two and a half 96 hours, and get no pay for it, no overtime at least. He is simply- getting straight mileage. It has been demonstrated, wherever this has been put in, it has stopped 70 per cent, of the delays around yards; this thing of calling men out, just as soon as you commence to put the penalty on or commence to punish a rail- road company, if you will pardon the term, and make them pay for it ; they find a closer check on the man who order these things and find out where they are before they order the crews, and all that sort of thing. I also want to call your attention to the fact that if a man laid there two hours before going out he would receive two hours terminal overtime, but if he was 12 hours getting over the road on a train, that time would be deducted, because he earned two hours road overtime, so he would not get the terminal time . and then get the two hours overtime besides on the road. The same principle applies to final terminal delay, the next article.; It is nothing unusual for a man to get into a yard in sight of home — I have known many cases where a man would be in sight of home and could see the smoke from his own chimney, across the way three or four Blocks, and would be there five or six hours before he could get home. There might be a congestion in the yard or there was no particular hurry for that train ; and it is nothing unusual for a man to be held around one of these: terminals one, two, three or four hours before he is released. He has given them his 100 miles, or ten hours, and he has prob- ably not got overtime, he has gotten over the road so his over- time has not commenced, and after he has arrived they simply hold him there. There are a number of cases where the con- ductor will walk down and register and go home and the engineer will stay there two or three hours before he is released and gets to the round house with his engine. We ask for 30 minutes, which we believe is ample time to get to the yard, and that the man be paid terminal overtime after that arrival. Mr. Judson : Is he not paid for it now, on some of the roads? Mr. Stone: On some of the roads, yes, sir. In fact, it is safe to say 60 per cent, of the roads in the southern and western' territory now pay in that way. Mr. Judson^ How about the eastern roads'? Mr. Stone: Not very many of the eastern roads do, very few. 97 Mr. Judson : Is this overtime paid if this wait is within the ten hours? Mr. Stone : No, sir. The Chairman : For instance, if Mr. Stone: Final overtime would be paid. The Chairman: If the required number of miles had been made and yet it is within the ten hour limit or wherever they have the ten hour limit. Mr. Stone: If it is within the ten hour limit? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: Yes, sir, it is paid. A man might be held at the initial terminal perhaps an hour or two hours and be en- titled to two hours overtime. He might have a fast freight train and go over the 100 miles division in five hours. In that case he would be entitled to a two hours initial terminal delay and pay for his 100 miles too, for the trip. Then after his ar- rival, if he was held more than 30 minutes he would be paid another hour final terminal delay. It is possible to do all those three things, but they are the exception and not the rule. For all over 30 minutes, in the final terminal delay, we apply the minute basis again. On many of the roads it is now paid under 30 minutes nothing and over 30 minutes an hour, and that produces the same friction as to the time. They want to take the conductor's time register and the register perhaps says he did not register right, "he registered before I was released,'* and so we are willing to give 30 minutes after arrival, which we believe is ample time to release the engine crew, and after that we want to be paid on the minute basis for all time over 30 minutes. If we are held 33 minutes we want to be paid for 33 actual minutes, and if 35 minutes, 35 minutes, and so on. The "Hours of Service Law.'-' We ask that the following amendment be made to Section E on the present application of the Sixteen Hour Law, or present agreement on the application of the Sixteen Hour Law. Mr. Judson: You do not expect us to amend the law. Mr. Stone : I do not expect you to amend the Sixteen Hour Law, but to amend the present agreement on the Sixteen Hour Law. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, where is that agreement? 98 Mr. Stone: I don't know whether I have a copy of that or not. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by the working agreement? Mr. Stone : The roads in the eastern territory at the present time, with perhaps few exceptions, have an agreement with the trainmen, conductors, firemen and engineers as to how they shall be paid after they have been tied up under the law. A few years ago the four organizations went together and made a settlement with the lines west of Chicago as to how they would be paid under what is called the Hours of Service Law; that is, a crew that worked up to the 14 or 16 hour limit, and they were tied up under the law; they might perhaps only be 10 or 15 or 20 or 25 miles, as the case might be, from the terminal, and that agreement read, at that time (and while it was not satisfactory to any of us, it was the best that could be gotten then), that after a man had been tied up under the law, that, at the end of his rest period, he automatically resumed duty, the entire crew did. "We had to put that in because on many of our western roads they would put a man in on a side track and leave him there 30 hours, so we had him automatically resume duty at the end of his rest period and then he was paid miles or hours, whichever was the greater, the miles or the hours, for coming into his terminal. We ask that a minimum day be paid. This is practically the settlement, Article E. It is. in nearly all the agreements in eastern territory. I will read it if you like. This is what we refer to; I am reading now from the agreement on the Baltimore & Ohio, and this is a standard agreement on nearly all the lines in the east in regard to the hours of service. Mr. Judson: Do you mean an agreement between the rail- road company and its employes? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. Article E of that agreement reads as follows : "Employees in train service tied up under the law will be paid continuous time or mileage at their. schedules from initial points to tie-up points. When they resume duty on a continu- ous trip, they will be paid at miles or hours, which ever is the greater, from the tie-up point to the next tie-up point, or to the terminal." "It is understood that this article does not permit engi- 99 neers to run through terminals unless such practice is permitted under the schedule." The Chairman: Mr. Stone, may I ask you to give us an il- lustration of what that means? Mr. Stone: The article that I have just read? The Chairman: Yes. Give us an illustration. iMr. Stone: Well, I will leave New York and start for Philadelphia. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone : I work 16 hours ; I have not arrived at Phila- delphia yet — this is only an illustration, you understand. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone : Of course you would arrive there before that prohahly. The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone : I have not arrived ; I have worked 16 hours ; tbje despateher says, "Tie up; you are relieved from duty." We turn our engine over to a watchman, if there is one, or to somebody they designate, and we go to a hotel or we stretch out on the cab seat in the engine, and we take what is called a rest. If you have been on duty over 1+ hours, you will be tied up for eight hours' rest, or if you have been on duty for over 16 hours, under the law you would be tied up for ten hours' rest. The Chairman: That is under the Federal Law? Mr. Stone : That is under the Federal Law ; under the work- ing agreement on the Federal Law. The Federal Law says this : "Crews shall not be held on duty in continuous service more than 16 continuous hours or more than 16 hours in the aggregate in any 24 hour period." The intent of the law wa;s to guarantee that a man should h)ave at least eight hours rest at some time during the 24 hours. While they are taking their rest at the end of eight hours, they automatically resume duty ; they may be called or may not, but their time commences ; they may not have used them for an hour or two after that, or four or five hours after that, but after the eight hours rest period, they go on duty. Their pay begins and they go on into Philadelphia. It may only he thirty miles. They would be paid thirty miles, under this article I have read. We ask that the minimum day apply, and that he be paid at 100 /least 100 miles. We do not want to be tied up out on the road for eight or ten or fifteen or twenty miles away from home. We want to go on in, and when we put a penalty on the company ^holding you out there and tieing you up, we believe they will put the man in or make arrangements to put him in. Mr. Judson: How can the company put you in when they would be violating the Federal Law by doing it ? Mr. Stone : After the 16 hour period was up, they could not • do anything. The time to commence to get you in would be long before that period was up, not quite so much tonnage, prompter movement of the train, and a thousand and one other things that might facilitate the movement and get you in. We take the position that when a man cannot go over a division of 100 or 110 miles in 16 hours, there is something wrong some- where, and we do not believe the fault all lies with the engineer. We believe it is abundant time to get any ordinary train over that distance under ordinary conditions. Mr. Morrissey : Air. Stone, while that crew is laying there tied up under the law, is it possible for other crews to pass them? Mr. Stone: Yes. There may be a dozen crews go by, and he loses out in the long run. Mr. Morrissey: Then when he goes to the terminal on the second section of that trip, after lie has resumed duty, and is paid hours or miles for the service, what place does he assume with respect to the crews that may have passed him? Mr. Stone: Why, he takes his turn out. Most of the crews in slow freight service especially, running what is known as the pool service, or in many places we say chain gang service, that is, the men follow each other; first in, first out. These crews that have gone by him while he was there taking his rest will go out of the terminal ahead of him, and it possibly is a ter- minal away from his home, and while being tied up. under the law, he not only loses mileage, but it perhaps deprives him of getting home again as he would have gotten back but for that. Six or eight, or possibly a dozen freight crews may have passed him in the meantime. We believe the least he should get for the next leg of the trip, or the second day, is a minimum day. We have written that rule just as we ask it here, on eight large roads in the 101 Southeastern territory. It is only in the last year that we have Ibeen able to secure this. This is an age of progress, and for- tunately we have been able to get it in all new schedules we have written in the southeastern territory. It is recognized there, and we believe we should have it here. We do not believe in this thing of crews being over 16 hours- in service. In fact, we think the hours are too long as they are,, and we never expected, when we made the 16 hour law, that the companies would turn around and work the crews the full limit oJ 16 hours hours, as some of them think they are called upon to^ do. Because we have a 16 hour law, they think they must get the 16 hours out of the men. I assure you if we had ever antici- pated they were going to work the crews the full limit of the ; hours, we should have asked a much higher rate than we are' receiving on many of the roads to-day. And while I was one of the prime movers in having the 16 hour law incorporated in the- statutes, or one of the men who helped have it placed on the statute books as the Federal Law, I say to you frankly that it did not bring the results that we anticipated, and as I said yester- day, I think we have got to find a solution for the long hcurs along some other plan, and I do not hesitate to r. Stone? Mr. Stone : For engineers, do you mean, or conductors 1 Mr. Shaw: Conductors? Mr. Stone : I do not think they are paying quite tne standard scale on the Ann Arbor, but it is not in this movement or repre- sented here. Mr. Worthington : It is one of the roads in this particular district. Mr. Stone: So is the Central of Vermont and the Rutland, but they are not represented before this particular Board. Mr. Shaw : Take that road you mentioned in Ohio, that weak road — Mr. Worthington : The D. T. & I. ? Their representative is here, Mr. Johnson. Are you paying standard conductors wages ? Mr. Johnson: Yes. Mr. Worthington : Are you, Mr. Smith, of the Coal & Coke 1 Mr. Smith : No. Mr. Worthington : The D. T. & I. is. Mr. Judson : What do you think of the general principle of the relation of conductors to engineers? Is it not practically universal in the railroad service that the engineer is paid more than the conductor? Mr. Worthington: Yes, I think that is proper. The differ- ential however, that has existed between the wages of the engi- neer and the conductor is a fluctuating one, and there has not been any marked change since the wage increase in 1910. There has been a slight change, but I have some graphic charts which will show you what that differential is in the other groups, in the western and southern groups. You will notice by reference to those charts that it is a variable proposition, and the differ- ential, in the first instance, that was granted to the engineer was not only because he was regarded as one of the most, if not the most, important man on the train. Exhibit 41 will show you the differential between the conductor and engineer, going back to 1900. J3ut, in the original differential that was granted to the locomotive engineer. The other chart, No. 4ft, shows what the differential is in the United States, as a whole, and the sec- 130 ond chart shows what the differential is in the' groups you are now considering, and the next chart shows the southern groups and the next chart the western groups. From that you will see there is no uniform relation in this differential, and the closing up of the gap in the last wage scale is very slight in this last group. The original reason for a differential, as I remember it, because I made one of the first engineers' wage scales that was ever made in the west, in 1882, with the Grand Chief of the. Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers at that time, for the Cen- tral Pacific Eailroad ; the engineers got more monej even before we had any wage agreements with the engineers. There were very good reasons for it. In those days an engineer had to work from two to three or four hours and sometimes longer when he completed his run before he started on his next trip. The engines in those days were assigned ; that is, every engineer had his own engine. He took particular pride in the engine, and he did all of the smaller repairs. And the fireman also spent a great deal of time on the engine doing a great deal of work that' neither of them are required to do to-day. The engines now are ran mostly in a pool and they do not get the same engines excepting on some passenger runs, that they formerly did, under the old system. And these engines are taken care of now by inspection crews at the terminals, and by a gang of machinists, the engineer reporting what he finds is necessary and the machinist in charge of inspection reporting what he finds is necessary. So that T did not quite understand what the engineers would have to do, when Mr. Stone remarked this morning that sometimes they were an .hour or an hour and a half or two hours, because most of them get around in time to change their overalls and look the engine over a little bit, and then pull out from the round- house; their time usually starts, in most instances, from the roundhouse. The Chairman: May I ask, just for our information, this Exhibit No. 43, "Conference Committee of Managers, Eastern territory, New York, increased compensation to conductors in 1911, due to advances in rates of pay" ; how were these secured! Mr. Worthington : From the individual roads, by correspond- ence. I wrote to them and gave them the details of what was 131 desired, and the figures were made in their offices. Now, as el, matter of information, gentlemen, we have all of the support- ing data for each one of these The Chairman: No, you did not quite understand me. I mean how was that increase obtained. I am not referring to the figures, but how was that increased pay obtained. Mr. Judson : That is, how was it secured from the railroads ? , Mr. Worthington: Do you mean how were they obtained in, former schedules? Mr. Judson: No, how were these advances obtained? Mr. Worthington: By negotiations with the men. The en- gineers on a given road would negotiate with the management and finally these concessions were granted. The dates in all instances will show just when the schedules were made, and, since 1900, as we will show by another exhibit here, there have been numerous concessions made to the engineers; their wages, as shown by that other chart, which shows the engineers' wages, advancing steadily with the increased train load. The Chairman : Was this increase of conductors ' pay made, on the various roads in pursuance of any arbitration or any negotiation 1 Mr. Worthington: The conductors, in the first instance, on the New York Central arbitrated, and I think the Baltimore &, Ohio arbitrated ; — on the Baltimore & Ohio it was through media- tion. Then, the conductors went to these other roads individ- ually. The conductors on our road came to me, and they had this concession granted on the New York Central Lines, and of course I had to meet them. There was nothing left for me to do. Mr. Judson : Well, why had you to meet them, Mr. Worth- ington ? Mr. Worthington : I did not let it go to a strike vote, but, as a matter of fact, that is what I was confronted with. There is no doubt of that. They would not accept anything less than the standard scale, and I felt compelled to grant the standard scale. I did not think it was right, never did think so, and I am here to-day to argue against it, because I think it is wrong. I did not think it was right when I was forced to give it on the Wheeling & Lake Erie. 132 Mr. Judson: Was not the effect of that on your "Wheeling & Lake Erie to put the conductors out of line with the engineers ? Mr. Worthington : It was. Then, shortly after that, in Sep- tember, 1910, — on June 1st, 1910, we had met the adjustment With the conductors, and in September, 1910, with the engineers, and I might say that when they appeared before me at that time the engineers were apparently satisfied with the adjustment that was made. They did not raise the issue that they had lost any- thing by closing up the differential with the conductors at that time, and I do not understand that it is on, any other roads. That is one of the issues in the present case. Mr. Judson: Did not that raise the wages of conductors bear just as hard on the roads that this raise proposed now will bear? Mr. Worthington : precisely. Mr. Judson: The same principle? Mr. Worthington: Precisely. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Worthington, may I interrupt you a moment ? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: What is the purpose of the exhibit which you present, Exhibit No. 41, showing the average daily wage of engine men and other classes from 1900 to 1911? Mr. Worthington: Exhibit 41? Mr. Morrissey: Yes, sir. Mr. Worthington : Well, that exhibit shows the average rate per day of the wages of engineers, conductors, station agents, other station men, firemen, other trainmen, machinists, carpen- ters, other shop men, section foremen, other trackmen, switch tenders, crossing tenders and watchmen, telegraph operators and despatchers. The purpse of that chart is threefold : First it showed that since 1900 and up to the present time, the differentials existing between the engineers and the other classes of service have run along uniformly; Second, it shows that the engineers are the highest paid skilled workmen in the railroad service; Thirdly, it shows that manifestly if this class of service is entitled to an increase of its compensation, it is going to be very difficult for us to get away from the collateral effect, and J.).) give some increases to the other classes of service that clo not receive anything like the wages of engineers to-day. Mr. Morrissey : Well, those figures, I understand, are taken from the reports of the Interstate Commerce Commission? Mr. Wortbington : Yes. Mr. Morrissey: If the. Commission itself is not satisfied with the figures, you would not expect this Board to accept them as correct, would you? Mr. Worthington: Well, I am glad you mentioned that, be- cause I will tell you what that objection is. The method of computing a day's work on the railroads is not uniform as be- tween the different railroads, and if we were to use them for that purpose of comparison, they would not be of value; but the method is uniform with reference to all these roads report- ing to the Commission over the period that is stated and is a true reflex of the relation of the wages of one class of labor to the other. I am very glad you mentioned that. Mr. Morrissey: 1 have in mind what the Commission itself says under this heading, and I will read it to you, not for the purpose of argument, but if the Commission itself is not satis- fied with this method of computation, why I do not think we could accept it seriously. The Commission says: "The statements pertaining to aver- age daily compenation are not altogether satisfactory. The compensation of employes on account of overtime work, for example, is not reflected in these averages, although the fact that overtime work is paid for at a higher rate than the hours covered by the average compensation here reported." Then it goes on with other comments which do not directly relate to the point which I raise. Mr. Worthington: Yes, that is exactly true, and if I were attempting to use that coluparison as between different rail roads, it would not be a fair comparison, because the method of computing a day's work is not the same. The Bureau of Railway Economics prepared that table, and in submitting it to us, this is the memorandum which they have attached. In fact, in every instance to all of these tables we have attached explanatory notes, and to this particular, one the attached reads as follows (reading) : 134 "Memorandum as to Methods Employed by Amprkay Rail- ways in Reckoning the Number of Days Worked by their Employes. In their annual report to tlie Commission railways are re- quired to give, relative to eighteen classes of employes, the following information : 1. Number of employes in each class on June 30 as deter- mined from the pay-rolls for that month. 2. Aggregate number of days worked by all employes in each class during the year. 3. Aggregate compensation paid to all employes in each class during the year. 4. Average daily compensation. This is to be determined by dividing the total yearly compensation by the total number of days worked. As a result of inquiries that have been instituted by the Bureau of Railway Pjconomics it may be asserted that most roads determine the average daily compensation in the manner ■ ordered by the Commission. The real difficulty lies in the de- termination of the number of days worked, and here a variety of methods are employed by the railways. In some cases the determination of what constitutes a day's work rests with the officer employing the specific class of labor. In classes of labor remunerated on a mileage basis it is possi- "ble, and frequently is the case, that individuals receive com- pensation for more constructive days than there are actual - days in the period. In such cases the average daily compen- .sation, as reported, appears to be less than it really is. For example, trainmen are commonly paid on a mileage basis, the usual practice being to consider one hundred miles per day, so that when the total miles run during the month are reduced to the basis mentioned, the number of consecutive days ex- ceeds the actual number of days in the month. The number of days worked by employes on monthly sal- ary is usually reckoned as identical with the number of calen- dar days in the month ; while the time of employes paid by the day. or by the hour is reported on the basis of the actual days worked, hourly labor being reduced to its equivalent in daily labor at the rate of ten hours per day. Some roads add to- 135 gether the total days worked each month to get the total for the year ; others compute the annual total from the total of typ- ical months, and there are still other methods employed. The conclusion is obvious that comparisons can be made only in a general way between different railways, but that comparisons from year to year on individual roads will be valid, provided the methods used by each road are not changed during the period of comparison." Mr. Worthington (Continuing) : The method used has beerr the same by these road's during this period, and this is the true reflection of the wages of the engineer, in comparison withi the conductor, and with the other classes of service on the 52 railroads east of Chicago. Mr. Judson: Mr. Worthington, do you object to questions during your argument? Mr. Worthington : No, sir, I am very glad to have them. Mr. Judson: I ask because, sometimes, they disturb a man. Mr. Worthington: I would be very glad to answer them. Mr. Judson: There is one point I would be glad to get your views about. I understand your position is that the stand- ardization of the pay of conductors to which you assented, was really forced upon you? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : And you did not believe in it, and you thought it was unwise or unjust? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson : Do you think the principle is an unsound one r irrespective of the amount of the raise? Leave the amount or the raise out of the question, and is the principle of stand- ardization of railroad employees, or any branch of them, a sound or an unsound one as applied to the strong and weak roads in their relations to each other? In other words, should a strong road pay a higher rate of wages than a weak road, and a road which is, perhaps, a competing road and has the misfortune of being over-capitalized, or having poor business? Do you catch my point? Mr. Worthington : I do. Of course your question is suscep- tible of two answers. When you speak of an over-capitalized road, I would not think that road should be excused from pay- ing standard wages, simply because it was over-capitalized, 136 but my opinion, generally, is with reference to roads that are not over-capitalized, but poor roads that have not the same opportunity to earn the same net earnings per mile, the roads that are not in a position to have a great many things that the richer and more prosperous roads have — they are unable to have block signals, they are unable to get money to get as good track section, as high standard of bridges, as heavy rail, and other things that the richer and more prosperous roads can have, and there should be no sound reason why they should have to be lifted up, on the question of labor, and made to pay the high scale of wages. Mr. Judson: Has not the public an interest in that ques- tion? Mr. Worthington: Surely. Mr. Judson: And, on the question of public safety, do you think a weak road which has a poor business should be exempt from having the necessary appliances for public safety that the strong road is compelled to have? Mr. Worthington: I would not think so, but the answer to that question is this : — a small road does not require as high a standard, in order to be safe, as the richer and more pros- perous road, with a heavier tonnage, requires. There is not as high speed passenger traffic; it does not require as high a standard. I made briefly a memorandum indicating the objections that occurred to me to a standardization of scale, and the rea- sons are as. follows: Standardization fails to recognize dissimilar physical characteristics existing on different roads and different parts of the same road. It fails to consider the varying traffic conditions repre- sented by volume prevailing on different roads and different parts of the same road, and the volume means earnings. It fails to recognize differences in wages paid labor in other employments for similar grades of service in different localities within the limits of the districts involved. It fails to consider the varying traffic conditions reply- ing capacity of the several railroads, necessarily affecting abil- ity to pay proposed standard wages, such varying earning ca- pacity being due to 137 a. Varying operating* conditions. 1). Varying rates per ton mile. e. Varying volume of traffic. 5. The engineers recognize the force of the preceding points as disclosed by their claim for an increased wage, on the ground that their services must be of greater value now than heretofore, owing to the alleged larger revenue secured from the alleged increase in the size of the unit (train load),., which they claim more nearly measures the productive power of their labor, which must vary on different roads, incident to conditions stated, above. The revenue train load will vary on the Eastern roads from 250 tons on the poorest road, to over 1,100 tons on the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, and in the Eastern' territory runs along about 500 or 600 tons per train. Now, it does not seem reasonable, if they advance that as a reason why wages should be standardized, that all those roads that have the poor train loads should have to pay as much as those that have the larger train hoads. It fails to consider that requiring the weaker roads to pay a standard wage, determined by the ability of the prosperous road, places a greater burden upon the weaker than the stronger lines. It fails to consider that a differential in the wage scale bearing some relations to the abilty of the railroads to pay, that is, in reality the public using the railroad, and to varying wage scales prevailing in different parts of the districts. Standardization is inconsistent with demands contained in the last paragraph of the proposed schedule presented by the engineers, and attached to the arbitration agreement, which in substance provides: a. Existing rates of pay, or better working conditions, shall not be reduced by the proposed rates or rules. b. Nor shall the general committee of adjustment be de- barred from taking up with the respective managers, matters not decided at this conference. If standardizatin means anything it ought not to permit committees to come around to these railroads after these pro- ceedings are through with and adjust other matters that affect wages, because all of this work, nearly all of it, means money, 138 and if the application for a standard wage scale is sincere all of these things should be eliminated. "Standardization of wages and rules of services in the western and southern territories," it seems to us, "is no justi- fication for extending the system, in view of the foregoing ob- jections, and particularly when it is shown, (a) That there are quite a number of roads in such terri- tory that do not recognize the theory. s (b) That the western and southern roads were standard- ized. (1) As a result of a 'strike vote' at a time when the man- agers felt that public policv required a temporary concession; (2 Or, as a result of mediation under the Erdman Act, in which case it is well to bear in mind the distinction between mediation proceedings and arbitration proceedings as stated by Dr. Neil, U. S. Commissioner of Labor, in Bulletin No. 98 of the Bureau of Labor, January, 1912, page 15: 'Their (mediators') functions consist solely in exercising friendly offices and tending to harmonize the differences existing between the employer and employees and by including conces- sions from each side to bring them to a voluntary agreement upon all the points at issue. It may be assumed that in any given case the mediators would naturally endeavor to induce the par- ties to come to a settlement on terms that would appear to them just and fair, but they have no authority or power to compel the parties to the controversy to yield to the views held by the medi- ators. The mediation negotiations, therefore, in no way partake of the nature of an arbitration, and the settlements brought about through mediation represent an agreement reached by the parties themselves through the friendly offices of the mediators rather than an agreement imposed upon them by any third party. (c) And the rules of service proposed for the eastern dis- trict are not in fact uniform with the rules of the western and southern Districts, but on the contrary embrace the most ad- vantageous ones, without any compensation from the ones more favorable to the railroads." My notion, gentlemen, is that the scale on the western and southern roads, obtained in the manner indicated, could hardly be regarded as having been brought about through any pro- ceedings that might be considered satisfactorv to the railroads 139 and we feel that a wage scale obtained in the way that the western scale was obtained, and those in the south, ought not to be enforced upon us, as being justified by the conditions that existed there. The concerted action of the conductors and trainmen was started on the Baltimore & Ohio. A strike vote was taken; mediators under the Erdman Act stepped in and an agreement was concluded. The officers of the organization stated the B. & 0. mediation was final for the territory, but later the New York Central secured arbitration through Messrs. Clark and Morrissey, and their conclusion was final for all the rest, but a strike vote was taken for all or nearly so. I left off, at a table referring to the collateral effect of this increase of wages upon the 52 railroads east of Chicago, which aggregated $63,000,000. The second to the last column shows the effect of the engineers increase. The total will not check $6,875,000, with the other total of $7,000,000, the reason for it being that the Reading Railroad did not furnish the statistics, under this particular table. The collateral effect was arrived at in this way : — Each of the roads went over their pay roll and took the percentage of increase to the engineer and applied it to these other classes of service of union labor, firemen and so forth. Mr. Judson : How was that figured .' Do you mean to say, if all the other classes of labor received the same increase as the engineers asked for, in this case Mr. Worthington : The same percentage of increase. Let me explain that. We are not prepared to say, of course, that that is the true collateral effect upon the railroads. We give you this information, gentlemen, for what it may be worth, so that you can see what it means to the railroads, if they have to grant "similar rates of increase, but, we go one step further. The movement is of very large magnitude. Very few of the railroads could stand the collateral effect, figured in that way, on the same rate of increase, to other classes of union labor as has been asked for by the engineers. Mr. Judson : How could other employes ask for it as a con- sequence of this proceeding, if, in fact, they have already re- ceived it. 140 Mr. Worthington: None of the other classes of employes, Mr. Judson, have had increases since the last engineers' scale and, if we grant the engineers this concession, they being the highest paid skilled workmen we have, how can we decline these others? The firemen are already in and the shopmen of several of the other roads are already in. The Chairman: What do you mean by "in"! Mr. Judson: The conductors have already received theirs? Mr. Worthington : The engineers came after the conductors, except in three cases. By "in" I mean — it is not exactly clear what I did mean — what I meant to say is that they have applied — the firemen have already applied to our committee and have had one conference, and they are simply waiting until we get through here. Mr. Duncan tells me that their increase, calculated by the different roads, amounts to $20,000,000. That is the increase they ask. Here is one point I want to dwell upon for a momerit. While it may be unreasonable to take this position, and I do not want to take any position here that is not exactly fair — it may be unreasonable to take this position, that we would suffer this collateral effect — this is a calculation to show you what it would mean if we had to pay the same rate of increase that the engineers are asking for to other employes. And, gentlemen, if you will look at that column, the column of "surplus," a little further over, under "separate operations" and under "cor- porate income" you will see how it will be for these roads if they only have an increase of 50 per cent., and then again, if they only had one-fourth of it, you can see how it would affect these railroads. Mr. Judson : Is that a fair argument in considering a claim of a specific class of skilled employes, to say that, if all other employes asked for increases in like proportion, they would bankrupt you? Mr. Worthington: It seems so to us, because it means that all of these employes seem very careful that the same differential shall be maintained. Mr. Eidlitz: What has been the history in the past, Mr. Worthington:, when there has been an increase of that kind, what has been the effect on other classes of labor? Mr. Worthington: It follows all down the line. It is not 141 confined to union labor. We have to go outside in increasing the boys, who are not members of the Unions. If you will notice Exhibit No. -tl again, gentlemen, you will notice that there has been a pretty uniform relation in the differential in the different classes of service. The Chairman : I do not quite understand your use of the word "differential." What do you mean? Mr. Worthington : I mean by that the relation that exists between, take for example, the engineers and conductors, the two lines on that chart; you will find they run uniformly along together; you will see that table, since 1900, you will notice the width apart of those two lines is quite uniform, and with reference to the other lines of service. Now, speaking of that particular table — I might say, gen- tlemen, with reference to firemen, while it is not exactly 60 per cent., it usually runs somewhere around about 60 per cent. of the engineers' wages. And if you increase the engineers, "the firemen naturally look for an increase, because that is about the relation of the firemen's wages to the engineers. We have a table, that we will draw your attention to a little later, which shows what the percentage h;s heen right along. It is the desire of the railroad companies that this Board understand that they have no purpose to withhold from the en- gineers one penny of compensation to which they may be fairly and justly entitled. No one knows better and, indeed, no one else understands so well as the managers of the railroads, the responsibilities and duties of the engineers ; that an engineer must have a sound mind in a sound body when he steps into the cab ; and that it is to the interest of the railway companies, as well as the public, that the engineers receive a rate of pay that secures for them proper living conditions and that the rules of service be so adjusted as to give them adequate rest and peace of mind. The railroad companies would be false to their public trust if they did not approach the discussion of this controversy in a broad spirit, without any desire to deprive the engineers of anything to which they may be entited, bear- ing in mind not only that the laborer is worthy of his hire but that the public should not be required to pay to those performing transportation service higher compensation than measured by the general average compensation paid labor as a whole. 142 The managers of the railroads in this arbitration believe that the engineers in the service of these railroads receive not only fair but liberal compensation for the work which they per- form; that the hours they are on duty are so limited and the other conditions of their service so ordered as to relieve them in the normal course of their work of excessive and depressive strain; that there have been no changes in working condi- tions since the last wage adjustment justifying an increase particularly in view of the financial condition of the railroads today. Mr. Judson: When was this last wage adjustment! Mr. Worthington: We have got an exhibit which will give you the dates on the different roads. It is Exhibit No. 7. It gives you the dates of the last adjustment of the conductors and trainmen on the different roads, also with the engineers. And you will notice that the engineers' adjustment, except, I think, in three instances, followed the adjustment with the conductors and trainmen. Mr. Morrissey : Mr. Worthington, were those adjustments on the different roads the same? Was there any standard of adjustment of the wages of engineers at that time? Mr. Worthington: No. Mr. Morrissey: The adjustments then were local to the dif- ferent lines! Mr. Worthington: Excepting to this extent, Mr. Mor- rissey. The engineers have naturally been striving to bring about uniform working rules as well as they can. Yet it is only proper to state that the variation in these working rules, to which Mr. Stone called attention this morning, have grown out in many instances of swapping as he says. That is truc~ That is, for example, yon may find some railroad not paying initial overtime, and a man works on a certain month, and he will wonder why he did not get it, because he thinks he is en- titled to it. The probabilities are, if you had been present at the time the wage scale was made, that the engineers had some- thing in lieu of it, when the adjustment was made, as these things have all been traded back and forth and these adjust- ments have been a matter of barter and trade. Just as Mr. Stone says, in the matter of 15 hours away from home. With 143 reference to the time on my railroad (that is, what was my rail- road) the Wheeling & Lake Erie, he has 24 hours at one point, Norwalk, and on the Hocking Valley, I think, he has 18 hours. That rule varies on different roads and really is a matter of barter and trade, just as these schedules have been made from L time to time. There is one thing, gentlemen, I might call your attention- to, on this Exhibit No. 8, showing the increase of pay to lo- comotive engineers at the time of the last adjustment. While the average was 10.84 per cent. — The Chairman: Exhibit No. 8, did you say? Mr. Worthington : Exhibit No. 8. By running your eye up the column you will notice there was quite a variation in the percentage of increase on different roads, although nothing like as wide as the one proposed now. The minimum appears to be j 4.15 per cent., on one road, and the maximum about 20.3 per cent.; as against at the present time lOVa per cent, and 5.6 per cent. We believe we can demonstrate the justness of this con- tention by the testimony of those who are competent to testify respecting the actual working conditions of the engineers and by the statistical data which we now wish to offer, reserving to our- selves the right to make a general statement of our position, fur- ther, at the close of the testimony, if it seems to be necessary. The questions involved. The demands of the engineers for purposes of convenience may be classified as follows: (a) The adoption of the principle that wages and rules of service shall be standardized throughout the eastern ter- ritory. (b) The adoption of certain standard rates of pay and certain standard rules of service, resulting in increased compensation to the engineers. (c) The adoption of the principle that locomotive engi- neers shall have the right to operate the motive power when it is changed from steam to electricity or other motive power, and that electric service shall be governed by the schedule covering rates of pay and rules of service in steam service. (d) That locomotive engineers shall have the right to operate electric or multiple unit trains when the same enter 144 upon steam tracks formerly operated by steam, or where trackage rights are leased to holding companies. The railroad companies are rejecting the demands of the engineers as above set forth upon the ground that existing rates of pay are full and liberal, that existing rules of service bear :some relation to local conditions, that standardization of either rates of pay or rules of service are not justified by conditions,, and that electric service is not entitled to be paid upon a steam basis. I went over some portions of this memorandum in my dis- cussion. It is significant that the larger increase as stated would fall upon the roads least able to bear it. For instance, the Coal & Coke Railray Company's net operating revenue for the calen- dar year 1911 was $205,436, out of which taxes and interest on fixed charges must be defrayed. The proposed increase — • Mr. Judson: Where is that railway? Mr. Worthington : It is in West Virginia, from Elkins to 'Charleston, about 200 miles, handling mostly coal and coke. The proposed increase, with the collateral effect, will cost the Coal .& Coke Railway $214,227 Mr. Judson: What do you mean by collateral effect, like you have shown in this table? If everybody else asks for an increase? Mr. Worthington: Yes, on the theory, if the same precent- age of increase was granted to other lines of service as to this particular class. Mr. Morrissey: Were you just speaking of the Coal & Coke Railway and the serious effect which this increase would have, as applied to it? Mr. Worthington: Yes, and I also called attention to the fact, however, what the effect of 50 per cent, of this increase, or even 25 per cent., which would mean only slightly more than four per cent, in wages, would have. Mr. Morrissey: Will you file with this Board a statement as to the inter-relations between the Coal & Coke Railway and the Davis Collieries Company, of West Virginia, showing how the earnings of one are applied to the other . Mr. Worthington: Well, when Mr. Smith appears as a wit- ness, we will try to get any information you desire. 145 Mr. Morrissey: I make mention of that, because a little over a year ago I was engaged in an arbitration which fixed' the rates of pay on the Coal & Coke Railway, and this item which I mentioned was taken into consideration. Mr. Duncan: I have the record of the proceedings, if the Board would like to examine it, and would be very glad to fur- nish it to the Board ; that is the record of the proceedings of the Coal & Coke Arbitration, to which Mr. Morrissey refers. Mr. Shaw: We should naturally also like to have filed the record in the proceedings in the Conductors' Arbitration, as a matter of reference. Mr. Duncan: Are you referring to the Arbitration ■ Mr. Shaw : To the New York Central Arbitration. Mr. Duncan: We have that and will furnish that for you, if you wish it. Mr. Shaw : Yes. Those documents would be desirable prob- ably for purposes of reference, if they were here. Mr. Duncan: I will furnish them. Mr. Worthington: For instance the Coal & Coke Company's net operating revenue for the calendar year 1911, was $205,436, out of which taxes and interest on fixed charges must be de- frayed. The proposed increase with the collateral effect would cost the Coal & Coke Bailroad $214,227, or approximately $9,000 more than the net operating revenue, and would very seriously affect the net operating revenue of roads such as the D. T. & I. and the Indianapolis Union Railroad. Mr. Judson: What is the D. T. & I.T Mr. Worthington: The Detroit, Toledo & Ironton. For in- stance, the net operating revenue of the Baltimore & Ohio for the same period was $26,877,094, and if the wages of engineers and all other classes had been on the same basis of increase as that proposed by the engineers ' schedule, there would have been an increase in the labor cost, and a reduction in the net operat- ing revenue, of $9,257,000, making the net operating revenue for the year approximately $16,000,000 instead of $26,000,000, completely wiping out the surplus and seriously impairing the dividends paid, and to that extent affecting the security of the property and its ability to take care of future improvements. As said by the Railway Securities' Commission: "No attempt should be made by statute to limit railroad 146 profits to a fixed percentage, or to treat a high cash dividend as necessarily indicating extortion. Railroad charges must be reasonable,, but to try to control rates by arbitrarily limiting profits is to put the manager who makes his profit by efficiency and economy on the same level as the one who tried to accom- plish the result through extortionate charges. "Failure to encourage the creation of reserve funds out of surplus earnings would cause a constant increase of fixed charges, already heavy enough. In encouraging the creation of reserve funds we are only suggesting that the present gen- eration shall not be unmindful of its obligations to future users* of transportation. "The necessary development of railroad facilities is now endangered by the reluctance of investors to purchase new issues of railroad securities in the amounts required." Should this Board apply a standardized wage to the rail- roads in a territory of the extent of the Eastern territory, wider than any territory in which the standardized wage has been applied, with the possible exception of the typographical union, in the fact of the effect that such policy would have upon the revenues of the Company, the creation of their reserve funds and the effect upon new securities required? The adoption of this principle to a territory of the extent of the Eastern District fails to consider that a difference in the wage scale should bear some relation to the cvarying wage scales prevailing in the different parts of the District. The statistics on this subject are exceedingly meagre, but the Bu- reau of Railway Economics has made a special investigation through a member of its Staff, Mr. E. 0. Merchant, whom we expect to put up on the stand as a witness to give you the best information we were able to obtain. We sent him to Boston, Buffalo, Chicago and Cincinnati, Cleveland, New York and Philadelphia, and he has been working now for a couple of months, and will give you the best information we were able to obtain as to what the daily, weekly and monthly wages of skilled workmen in other classes of employment were. The Chairman: What is this Bureau of Railway Econ- omics ! Mr. Worthington: It is a Bureau supported by the rail- roads for the purpose of furnishing statistics on various prop^ 147 ositions, conducted by Mr. L. G. McPherson, as the Director, assisted by Dr. Dixon, of Dartmouth College, and by Mr. Par- melee, the statistician of the office. And, I want to say, in justice to those gentlemen, that their figures are absolutely accurate. They do not take sides on any issue, and they will not appear as witnesses, unless desired to verify some of the tables that are submitted, as they do not appear for either side. Mr. Judson: They have prepared these tables submitted? Mx. Worthington : They prepared most of them. Some of them were prepared in our office in New York, but the most of them were prepared by them. The Chairman: Who supports the Bureau of Railway Economics ? Mr. Worthington: The contributions of the railroads who are members of the Bureau. The adoption of the principle of standardization fails to con- sider the marked variations in the earning capacity of the railroads, necessarily affecting ability to pay the proposed standard of wages. We expect to produce witnesses to show the variations in operating conditions on the different roads which we think justify a difference in the wage scale. We think that the difference in the earning capacity of the road, as reflected by the earnings per ton mile and per passenger mile, and per mile of road, in the aggregate, should have some relation to the wages that we are required to pay, as this has always been the rule in the past. Mr. Judson: Are you advised as to what the conditio a is in other countries on that question? Have you made any in- vestigation on that subject? Mr. Worthington: We have some statistics from foreign countries that were obtained through an investigation made by Mr. McPherson, of the Bureau of Railway Economics, and we can produce that for you. Mr. Judson: Do you insist upon that principle, that the difference in the earnings of a road, whether it is prosperous or not prosperous, should be material in determining the wages of its skilled employees? Mr. Worthington: We would not think the fact whether a road was prosperous or not prosperous had anything to do with the question, because that might grow out of various reasons, 148 for which the engineer was in no way responsible. But, I would, think that the difference in the physical characteristics, where two roads might be parallel for example, and operated under entirely different conditions, ought to have some rela- tion especially if it affects the earning capacity of the road. Mr. Judson: If two roads, we will say, run between the same termini and one was fortunately located, through a pros- perous district, and one was unfortunately located through a mountainous district with sparse population, do you think that fact ought to be material in determining the wages of the en- gineers or other skilled employes? Mr. Worthington: As a rule, under conditions such as you cite, the scale of wages is usually the same. But we have a case here now where we are attempting to consolidate groups 1, 2 and 3, where there are various operating conditions, not only with reference to the earnings, but in every possible way. Group 1 has always had a lower wage scale than the other dis- tricts, group 2 somewhat higher, and group 3 is higher still. And, as we get towards the west, the wage scale has always been higher. I was at one time connected with the Southern Pacific Company as assistant general manager, and it was part of my business to handle labor organizations; and I never. had a labor organization come to me asking for an increase in pay that it was not based upon the claim that because of the condi- tions in the west they were entitled to more money ; the rougher character of the country, the higher cost of living and other reasons that were cited. Mr. Judson: Have not those conditions very largely dis- appeared in the growth of population in the west and the assimi- lation of conditions there to conditions in the east? Mr. Worthington:- No, it has not changed any of the physi- cal characteristics of the roads and, as for the density of traffic, while the density of traffic in the west is somewhat greater than it used to be, it is nothing like it is in the east, and the earnings per ton per mile on traffic run about the same as tiiey did ten years ago in the west. There is not very much change. It runs about one cent per ton per mile, while in this particular district it runs from 5 to 6 or 7 mills per ton per mile. There is one thing that Mr. Stone commented upon yester- day. He referred to the very large increase in the past decade 149 in the revenue ton miles of freight carried and in the number of passengers carried and in the number of passengers carried one mile, the percentage running up as I remember to something like 70 or 80 per cent., while the number of engineers perform- ing the service had increased only about 30 per cent., or some- thing of that kind, and the ratio of increase was very much less. It did not seem to me, gentlemen, that there was any possible relation between that and the wages the engineers should receive, , for this reason: No railroad pays its train employes on a ton mile basis or on a passenger mile basis. If they did, the engi- neer who went over the road with a light engine would get no pay, and in the direction the traffic was moving empty, on the empty train haul, the engineer would not receive any money. And as for the passenger mile, if that was a measure of what an engi- neer should receive, a road like the "Wheeling & Lake Erie would only pay about one-tenth what the Lake Shore and Pennsylvania are required to pay. It seems to me that the unit that is accepted generally as the measure of pay would be the train mile. Now on that basis we have tables or charts showing the relative increase in the engineers' wages, in comparison with the increase in freight train miles. Graphic charts 48 and 49 ; 48 is for groups 1, 2 and 3, now being considered, and 49 is for the railroads of the United States, as a whole. That table shows the relative per- centage, taking 1900 as a unit, the percentage in increase in wages of engineers, compared with the percentage of increase in train miles. The Chairman: Mr. Worthington, I do not want to inter- fere with the continuity of your argument, or anything of that kind, but would it be agreeable to you, when you get to a place where you can break off, if we would close the session? Mr. Worthington: It would suit me if it would break right off now, as I would like to go over this thing more carefully. The Chairman: Then I will close now. It is a very warm day and we have received a great deal of information, about as much as we can digest. We will adjourn until to-morrow morning, at 10.30. (Whereupon, the hearing was adjourned to July 17, 1912, at 10.30 o'clock A. M.) 150 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 17th, 1912. 10 :30 A. M. The Chairman: "We will now open the session. Mr. Wor- thington, are you ready to continue? Mr. Worthington: If your Honors please, yesterday. I imagine, I did not make myself quite clear in regard to one point; as to the method of the increases in the wages of other classes of employees following the increases to the conductors and to the engineers. The committees of adjustment of the other classes presented their requests for increases in compen- sation, and, naturally, based their claim for increase on the fact that increases had been granted to the conductors and to the engineers from these different organizations, and. in some in- stances, we made some voluntary increases to employees who were not members of labor organizations. In fact, the general office clerks are not members of any organization, yet we felt it necessary to increase their compensation, as it was somewhat out of line with that of the other employees. That has been the practice in the past, when one of the principal organizations obtained an increase, it started the cycle rolling, and we find it necessary to go along down the line and make increases to other classes of service. We do not always grant the same percent- age of increase to the different classes that follow the leading organization, whichever it happens to be, the conductors, or the engineers. We deal with them the same as Mr. Stone yesterday suggested, we trade the best terms we can. In some cases the percentage of increase may be greater than it is to the other leading organization, and in other cases less. We really do not know what that is going to be until we get through and we make the best trade we can. That is the method that has been pursued in the past, and we naturally felt that we would find it difficult to get away from a similar method of procedure, in this instance. This morning, I will touch briefly on the main points in an- swer to Mr. Stone, and we can later support the statements which I make through the witnesses, and I will myself be a witness and be subject to cross-examination by the other side, if it is desired to cross-examine me. I want to repeat a few sentences that I stated yesterday, as 151 I wish to dwell somewhat positively upon them. Yesterday I referred at some length, to the collateral effect, but I do not wish it understood by the Board we are basing our claim that, the engineers should not have an increase because of the collat- eral effect, and because of the inability of the railroads to pay. I merely brought that in as purely incidental to the main reasons why we feel that there should be no increase at the present time might be briefly summarized as follows: The railroads claim that the existing wages are fair and liberal because (a) Eailroad employees are as well if not better paid than labor in other employments, (b) Engineers constitute the highest paid class of employ- ees in the railroad service, (c) The existing differential in the rate of pay in favor of engineers against conductors growing out of the wage adjust- ment of 1910, corresponds, in a majority of cases, with the dif- ferential theretofore existing for a number of years in favor of the engineers. (That is shown by the graphic chart that we produced yesterday), (d) The 1910 adjustment of engineers wag'es was made ex- cepting in three or four instances, as shown by the table which we submitted yesterday, on the 52 railroads involved, subse- quent to the adjustment with the conductors and trainmen, (e) The engineers have worked under the existing differen- tial for the past two years without protest until the issue raised at this time, (f ) There is a presumption in favor of the conclusion that the existing differential between the engineers and the conduc- tors is as wide, if not wider, than is warranted by the char- acter of the service rendered by those respective classes of employees, in view of the fact that the conductor has always been and is now recognized as the superior officer of the train; also in view of the fact that the existing differential was made ' at a time when the engineer was required to work from two to three and sometimes more hours upon his engine before the beginning or after the completion of the trip. Further, the differential in the western district, at the present and for many years, as shown by the graphic chart which we submitted yes- ; 152 terday, is much narrower than the differential in the western district, at the present time. Engineers wages increased in 1910 approximately $4,044,- 230 per annum, or 10.84 per cent., at which time full considera- tion was given to all the conditions of service then prevailing. We expect to produce witnesses of the various roads to support that statement. Since that time there has been no increase in risk or re- sponsibility or physical labor of the individual engineer on any of the 52 railroads either on account: (1) The size of engine; (2) The speed of trains; (3) The loading of trains. Taking up first the size of engines. Exhibit No. 20, which you have, shows that at the present time engaged in the service on the 52 railroads there are Passenger Locomotives Electric 164; steam 6,126. Freight. Electric 17; steam 14,605. Switch. Electric 16 ; steam 4,253. Total, Electric 197; steam 24,984. Exhibit No. 23 which you have shows that there were 2008 locomotives purchased since the last adjustment with the en- gineers for the 52 roads; only 68 of these engines were of the Mallet type to which Mr. Stone made reference, and most of these were purchased for these railroads for helper service. 202 were of the Mikado type. The Mikado type is an engine vary- ing from 15 to 20 per cent, greater tractive capacity than what might be termed the Standard Consolidation engine. It is not nearly as heavy as the Mallet type of locomotive, and occupies not quite the middle ground between the Consolidation type and the Mallet, insofar as tractive power and driver weight is con- cerned. There were 810 Consolidation type engines, 286 of which had less than 200,000 pounds driver weight. In other words they would class about in the type of the former Con- 153 solidation engine. The remaining 524 had about 10 per cent, excess capacity over an engine with slightly less than 200,000 pounds on drivers. Only .five of the 52 roads purchased Mallet engines; that is the double engine. There were a total of 68 Mallet locomotives. With the 524 heavy type Consolidations, 202 Mikado type, which is practically the same type as the big Consolidations, and 68 Mallets, we would have of the 2008 new engines 794 engines of the heavier design distributed among a comparatively few of the 52 roads east of. Chicago, and rep- resenting a little over three per cent, of the locomotives in ser- vice on these 52 roads ; from which it would seem that it is quite clear this could hardly be used as an argument for increase in compensation based on the size of engine. (2) Speed of trains. Exhibit No. 26 which you have there shows the average speed of passenger and freight trains and fast freight trains on the 52 railroads in the years 1905 to 1911. The Chairman: Which exhibit^ Mr. Worthington: No. 26. By reference to this table you will notice that there has been a very slight, if any, increase in the average speed of these trains in the past six years. In some cases it shows a slight reduction. There surely is nothing in connection with the speed of trains that would justify any increase: Mr. Van Hise: In that connection may I ask a question? Mr. Worthington: Certainly. Mr. Van Hise: Are these made up on the basis of the in- dividual trains or after each road is given, is the road aver- f aged? Because that is an important point in getting the true average. Mr. Worthington: You will notice I have not a total aver- age. The averages are shown separately for each road. We could not very well make an average of averages. Mr. Van Hise: No, you could not very well make an aver- age of averages unless you included all the trains. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Van Hise : I wondered whether actually an average of all trains had been made for all roads. Mr. Worthington: No, as a matter of fact, by taking the 154 individual roads you will notice that some are slightly in ex- cess and some slightly below, though the excesses are not large on any of the roads ; in fact it is very small, it is but a fraction of a mile in some cases in speed in miles per hour, and if you will compare those figures you will notice it would seem to be superfluous to make a total average. Mr. Van Hise: Yes, I see. Mr. Worthington : 3. Loading of trains. As indicated by the graphic chart that we will have to submit. We made a graphic chart, but found that the figures were not all exactly correct, and we sent it back, and it is in the hands of the printer now. This chart showing the increase in the train loads from 1900 to 1910. You haven't it in your book, but we will produce it when we get it. The top line is the trainloads from 1900 to 1910. Those fig- ures are correct on that chart (handing paper to the Chairman). By referring to this chart, you will notice that there has been a gradual increase in the trainloads from 3900 to 1910, the line dropping off slightly in 1904 and in 1908, incident to a de- pression in business. It might be said that a railroad might run the ?ame number of Irain miles one year as another and show a decrease in revenue train miles. The reason for that is that the total revenue ton miles ;ire taken and divided by the total train mpL'S. Therefore, if you have a depression in business and you have a light load- ing in one direction, and your traffic preponderates one way you might run even a higher number of train miles and show a lower revenue train load. We do not dispute that there has been a gradual increase in trainloads, and that this increase has been quite marked. In this period of ten years, the increase is about 40 per cent. We will show the figures in a table to demonstrate that. The engineers 7 wages have not increased in the same ratio, and it could hardly be expected that they would, for the following reasons : With the frequent demands of wage increases, increased ex- penses incident to full crew bills — we will give you a table show- ing the amount, and my recollection is that is costing the roads east of Chicago about three mil Hon dollars per annum. Ana i. might say with reference to full crew bills the railroads get no 155 perform no service and it simply makes employment for another man. Mr. Judson : Is that by an Act of Congress or State Laws? Mr. Worthington : It is usually State Statutes. It is spread- ing, however, and it is something that we must meet. The very marked increases in taxes. We will produce a table and a graphic chart to show you the increase in taxes on these roads east of Chicago, benefit at all from them. The third brakeman on these trains The very large expenses incident to the installation of the various safety appliances required by Congress, to which the railroads do not take exception — we think they are a good thing; we are in favor of the safety appliances, yet they all cost money, and we will produce a table showing what that cost is in the ag- gregate to the railroads, and for a period of the next five years. It runs into a great deal of money. And other increases in operating expenses in the way of increased prices for materials and supplies. A glance at this situation will demonstrate to the gentlemen of your Board, that the railroads have been confronted with a very serious situation, and are to-day so confronted. The items of wages, full crew laws, safety appliances, ma- terials and supplies, are inflexible. No economies can be ex- pected in that direction Mr. Van Hise : Well, for instance, with regard to steel rails, are the prices that the railroads have been paying for rails satis- factory? Mr. Worthinton : Well, we cannot buy them for any less. Mr. Van Hise : Well, with regard to the future, is there not a possibility that the prices may be lower? Mr. Worthington: If there is, it will help to that extent. But, Mr. Van Hise the item of steel rails on the railroads in the operating expenses is comparatively a small item when taken in comparison with the whole. Mr. Van Hise : I used that merely as an illustration. Mr. Worthington: Surely. If we can buy materials at a less cost, it will no doubt help us to that extent. The only flexible item that the railroad managers could see was the one that would produce greater operating efficiency, and the onlv available one, you might say, was to move the tonnage 156 in larger train untis. In doing this and increasing our train load. We have been able to induce the train miles to handle a given tonnage. And the engineers have, we feel enjoyed their lull share of the economies that have resulted, as we have had to take care of all these other things as well as the wages of the engineers and other employees. And we feel that they have had a very liberal share. We know that the capital invested in our properties is not getting any more than it formerly did, scarcely as much in many cases, which is partly indicated by noting the operating ratio on these roads ten years ago and to-day, as the operating ratio at the present time is slightly higher. The proportion that is being paid to labor is some consider- ably higher. It has increased the operating ratios about two per cent. Therefore, we know that out of each dollar taken in or out of each dollar of operating economies that we have been able to bring about, labor has had its full share. My attention is called to the fact that the rates for Mallets and Mikados have been increased since the general increase in engineers' wages in 1910, as these engines have been put in ser- vice. It has always been a great question in my mind — Mr. Judson: What does that mean! Mr. Worthington : Of the engineers performing the services on the heavy type of engines, they get a higher wage than those on the lighter types. There is one thing I think the Board should have its atten- tion called to, and that is that most of the roads have two rates, a rate for the large engine and a rate for the smaller engine, and the mallet type put in now gets a third rate ; so that the wages of many of these engineers who have stepped from the smaller to the larger engine, have been automatically increased. I have not been exactly clear, in my own mind, that there was always a justification for the increase in compensation of engineers incident to the increase in trainload. I am not pre- pared to say that when an engineer draws double the train ton- nage that he did before he ought not to have some of the benefit in the increase in the productivity of his labor, but I have a case in point : On the Wheeling & Lake Erie I had no new locomotive while I had charge of that road. I was able to Increase the trainload very largely. I accomplished that through grade re- 157 vision. For example, the rating was 2,050 tons gross for a Con- solidation engine, what is now a comparatively light type, 187,- 000 pounds on drivers. By grade revision work, we increased the trainload to 2,600 tons. Mind you, we used the same loco- motives. The engineer performed exactly the same service, worked the same reverse lever, the same throttle lever, the same . air brake and he exerted the same maximum tractive force. The engine was doing the same work itself in both cases, because it was incapable of doing more, and we were getting all there was in the engines in the first instance. The engineer was not responsi- ble for that increase in trainload, and in cases of that kind it is 1 a grave question whether the engineer is really entitled to more compensation because the managing official evolves a system whereby he can increase the trainload, without adding to the work of the engineer. Eegardless of my personal opinion in the matter, gentlemen, the engineers ' wage has increased right along with the increase in the trainload, as I said before, but not in the same ratio. The position of the railroads, gentlemen, to-day, before you is that the services of the engineers are of no greater value to-day than they were in 1910, at the time of the last readjustment, measured either by 1. The train miles, which is the unit most nearly measur- ing the output. 2. The trainloads, the proper consideration being given be- cause of the slight increase in trainloads in the past two years, which occurs on only few of the individual roads and would not , seem to be an argument for advancing the wages on tne 52 roads that are here. It is an argument perhaps for an increase on the few but not on the whole. 3. Or of the net revenue of the carriers, which most nearly measures the profit from the sale of the product. We will submit a table showing the details of the operations ■of all of these roads separately, showing the earnings, operating expenses, net revenue, and everything, so you will have that all before you. Mr. Judson: Is that in this list? Mr. Worthington: Yes It is the table in which the last column shows the collateral effect. You saw it yesterday. It is Exhibit No. 67. 158 Mr. Morrissey: Have you, Mr. "Worthington, anywhere in thase exhibits, a statement showing the increases on each of these propositions ; that is, are the increases so divided that the Board will know how much is applicable to overtime, how much to change of limitations, size of cylinder and the other factors that are contained in the engineers' proposition. Mr. "Worthington: Under the proposed advance asked for by the engineers at this time, we have that worked out in de- tail. There is a chart there which shows you the effect in detail. Mr. Duncan : Exhibit No. 2, you will find that to be. Mr. "Worthington: I won't say that it goes into the size of the engines, based on cylinder traction. I have a personal view on that, if you will indulge me for a moment. I do not believe the cylinder traction is a proper dividing line to differentiate in the wages of the enginemen. The Balimore & Ohio System, based on the driving weight, to my mind, is far better. I am not certain, however, that I would have the dividing line where they have it. That is largely a matter of point of view, and that opinion would be formed by the class of power that you would have on a. railroad, and would be governed entirely by local conditions. The reason why I do not think cylinder traction is a proper basis, is this? If you were to make an analyss of the locomotives on one of the larger roads and get the relation that the cylinder power in percentage bears to the driver weight, you would find that the cylinder traction would vary from less than 20 per cent, to over 30 per cent. The coefficient of adhesion of a locomotive is fixed by its driver weight, and is controlled by natural law. "What I mean by that is, if you were to take 20 locomotives of different sizes and test every one of them out here to arrive at the co- efficient of adhesion, that is the slipping point, you would find under the conditions which exist here now every one of them would slip at exactly the same percentage of the driver weight. Now that being true, the limited pulling capacity of that loco- motive is the point at which it slips, and that law would be ac- curate. I will admit that the coefficient of adhesion varies ac- cording to weather conditions. Mr. Van Hise : But it does not vary according to the size of the drivers? 159 Mr. Worthington : No, it will not vary according to the size of driver. They will both slip. If they slip, take a day like this out here, you might run up to 26 per cent, of the driver weight, and if you should take 20 engines, large and small drivers, they will all slip at that point, every one of them; when the load gets to that relation of the traction to the driver weigh, they will all slip here. I am pretty positive of that, because I made a good many tests of that in the West when I made tests of tonnage rating of locomotives, and we placed a maximum at which we would load our locomotives regardless of what the calculated cylinder traction was, of 23y 2 per cent, of the driver weight, and we did not load any locomotives whose cylinder traction went above that at a higher point than 23y 2 per cent. Another reason why cylinder traction is misleading is this. Mr. Stone spoke to you yesterday about the superheaters that are being put in these locomotives, and the intense heat that they develop, which passes into the cylinder. The superheater enables the railroad to carry a lower steam pressure in the boiler, and most of the roads building superheaters that would normally have 200 pounds pressurs, are able to carry a pressure of 170 pounds. They get the same locomotive traction because they increase the size of the cylinder; they get the same trac- tion because they give larger volume for steam. Now I built two engines like that for the Wabash-Pitts- burgh terminal, two consolidation engines, which had about 208,000 pounds on drivers; both engines exactly alike, with the exception one had the superheaters, and they had this big cyl- inder. My men immediately came in and asked for an increased compensation on the locomotive that- had the big cylinder, yet the traction of the two engines was identical. Now if the driver weight was the measure, and this is the limiting point at which the engine will slip, if that was used as a measure, we would not have any such controversy; and personally I think the driver weight would be a far better unit to make or to differentiate in the wages of engine men, if we must make a differentiation, and I guess we must, because it has been established by prece- dent. Mr. Van Hise : Do you include in any of your statistics, any point as to driver weight that you would make as the dividing line? 160 Mr. Worthington : Yes, I do not believe we can get away from the theory that the engineer is entitled to his share of the increased productivity of his labor. I do not believe we can get away from that theory. I think he is entitled to his full share myself. Just how we can arrive at that and make it exactly right, is difficult to say. My judgment is at the present time he has had his full share, and in differentiating between locomotives of different sizes, we must find some dividing line. And I think personally that driver weight is a better dividing line than cylinder traction, although cylinder traction is more generally used. Most of the roads use cylinder traction. Mr. Judson: Why is that so generally used on the differ- ent railroads if it is faulty? Mr. Worthington: The only answer I can make to that is that it is quite likely it had not occurred to the railroad man- agers who fixed it in the first place that the driver weight was a truer measure. I do not think it is any other. The truth is I would not know much about this problem myself, if I had not spent four years studying it. If I had gone up through the line of railroad service and had not had charge of the tonnage rating of locomotives, I might never have discovered that my- self. But for the reasons I state, I believe the driver weight is a better measure. Rules of service.. I will make a few remarks now and I will not detain you long with reference to the rules of service referred to by Mr. Stone yesterday. Beginning and ending of the day. The rule as proposed by the engineers is objectionable for the following reasons: (1) The subject is one requiring a diversity of rules in order to meet the local situation which depends upon the fa- cilities incident to the delivery of the engine to the engine crew at the starting and at the terminal points, the practice being rad- ically different on different roads. For example, many roads coming into large cities, will have "their engine terminal all the way from 5 to 15 miles away from the starting point. In other localities the roundhouse will not fbe half a mile away. Now it seems to me that in fixing any rule for payment of time of these men these local conditions must be considered. 161 2. The existing rules, although varying in their nature in a measure, take care of the differences in local conditions. We have submitted with our exhibits the working rules on the western roads, on the eastern roads, and on the southern roads. I believe the southern roads have not been printed. They are in the hands of the printer and we will have them for you before we get through. As you look these rules over you will notice marked varia- tions, and some of them will appear quite strange to you. I notice Mr. Straus yesterday inquired in regard to a rule where he asked Mr. Stone if there had been any objection on the part of any of the railroads to paying under those conditions. I could see at once that that seemed strange to him, and on its face it would look strange. There is not any doubt of it. But when you remember the manner of making up these rules, that these various committees have come to these managements from time to time and have asked for certain rules and the one hi point that was raised yesterday never had been asked of me; that one had never come up and is an issue for the first time in this case — but as these rules come up the managers trade with their men and they get the best set of rules that they can, and while they may not get one like that one yesterday, they will get something else in its place. "Where you find that one road is not paying overtime under a certain rule you will find if yon look a little farther that it is paying under some other rule which would offset that, or partly offset it. There has been a' tendency, however, towards standardiza- tion of these rules, and you will find a number of them that are uniform. The reason for that is, or the credit for that is, if we may- call it credit, due to the engineers and to the trainmen themselves, because as they pass from one road to another they aim to pro- duce uniformity in those rules. And now Mr. Stone, as you know, wants to standardize some of them, with the exception of some where I do not know what he is after, where he says, "nor shall this adjustment be binding upon the roads to the extent that their local committes may come in and deal with us on subjects not treated on before this arbitration." Just what that means I do not know, but we would prefer, if these things are to be settled by this Board, to have all of them settled so that there will be no 162 afterclap and no disputes between our engineers and ourselves aftrwards because certain points were not determined. Mr. Judson : Do you think that this difference in the local conditions is a barrier to an absolute standardization of such regulations as are prescribed here? Mr. Worthington : I do not believe I understand the question. Mr. Judson : I say, do you think this difference in local con- ditions is an effective barrier to standardization of these local regulations as to overtime and the like. Mr. Worthington: That is my honest judgment, for this reason : If you make a standard rule to cover the marked varia- tion in the operating conditions you will find yourselves paying for the less arduous situations the high rate, because the tendency is to level up all the time, and you will have on these conditions on which you would ordinarily get nothing, because they are not worth talking about, but they can be brought in under the rule — you will find them being put up to the high rate that may be fixed for a more arduous condition. We never can get the average; we have always got to go to the high amount. 3. The adoption of a standard rule requiring pay for an arbitrary 30 minutes before leaving the roundhouse or designated track, regardless of the local conditions above referred to, is apt to compel the railroads to pay for time for which the engineer tenders no service. That is not always so, however, but there are cases on the railroads where the engineers have little or nothing to do, and they do not get around the full 30 minutes; they come around 15 or 20 minutes ; and they simply change their clothes and look their engines over; they do not have any work to do ; they just look and see if they have coal and water, and see if they are ready to leave. And I do not believe that in the final adjustment of these matters any railroad manager objects to paying engineers and trainmen and other employees for all the time or service that they give to the railroads, but we do object to paying double time. Somebody asked Mr. Stone yesterday with reference to a freight run, where a man was making 100 miles in five hours, and he would start out with two hours initial overtime. We feel that we are entitled to the ten hour service out of that man. and that we ought not to be required to pay him two 163 hours overtime, when we feel that we have already paid for those two hours when we pay him for ten hours service. It is true, as Mr. Stone says, that when we have obtained the 100 miles out of him, that we have got all the mileage we are entitled to for the day's work. Yet, if we go back to the origin of the 100 miles and ten hours service the original basis was before our fast freight trains had to get over the road as they do in these days, ten hours service or 100 miles work, and we expected that we were going to get the ten hours' service. In fact we do not commence to pay overtime until after the ten hours' service, and we do not feel that we ought to be required to pay overtime to any of our men until we have had at least a day's work. That is our objection to that rule. The Chairman : Is that plan of paying overtime under the conditions that you have stated in existence now? Mr. Worthington : In respect to some rules. It is not gen- eral, but on some roads it is true, and it is done to-day, and it may be difficult to get away from it, but we do not think it should be regarded as a precedent for spreading it over other lines where it does not exist, and we do not feel that it is quite fair. We feel that when we employ these men for ten hours ser- vice or 100 miles run, we are entitled to ten hours service if we can use the man. You know when they get through with their runs we do not make them switch in the yard, we do not do any- thing of that kind, but if they are detained before the depar- ture of their trains and then reach their terminal within the time allotted for a day's work, we feel we ought not to be compelled to pay them overtime also at the end of the day. In a case such as Mr. Stone cited yesterday, of where an engineer will as he says, get within a half mile of his home and have to wait there for two hours before he can get in to his home terminal, I doubt if that occurs frequently; but it does no doubt occur at times on some of the roads. The terminals of the railroads at the present time, that is, of a large percentage of the railroads, are not adequate to meet the requirements of the service during the congested business periods. There is no railroad superintendent — I believe I can say this with absolute positiveness — there is no railroad superin- tendent on any of these 52 railroads that permits a train to stand out of a yard two hours, one hour, 30 minutes or 5 minutes 164 longer than he can possibly help it, because it is to his interest to get that train into the terminal and dispose of it, and if we had a condition of that kind where the engineer, in certain cases,, suffers by having to work a half hour extra time because of con- ditions that we cannot help, but that we are gradually improving, we feel that we are entitled to a day's work if we can get it. I do not mean to say that we would impose that on him, because we do not want him to stand out there either; but we feel that we are being penalized enough because of our own disabiliies, and we ought not to be required to pay him overtime unless he exceeds the time allotted for a day's work. In that case, of course, we do pay him overtime. Under "final terminal delay" my remarks just made will: also apply. "Time held away from home terminals." The railroads object to the proposed rule for the following reasons : Mr. Judson: Which one are you referring to now! Mr. Worthington : "Time held away from home terminals." Mr. Judson : That is not a separate heading, is it? The Chairman: No. Mr. Judson: It is the last paragraph of one heading, is it not? Mr. Worthington : Yes ; the 15 hour rule. Mr. Judson : Yes. The proposition requires the railroads to pay for time en- gineers who are held at other than home terminals in excess of 15 hours, irrespective of whether it is occasioned by matters over which the railroads have control, or matters over which the railroad has no control. The existing rules, have in a measure, taken into consider- ation the foregoing distinction, and, the adoption of a standard rule such as is suggested which fails to consider this distinc- tion will result in penalizing the railroads in periods of depres- sion when the interest of the engineers require distribution of the runs on a basis that will give to each engineer his pro- portionate share, but which at times necessarily occasions hold- ing at points other than home terminals. To explain that: Many of the roads, find if not all, have 165 written agreements or understandings with trainmen and en- ginemen that they will only reduce crews as business declines, after a conference with a committee representing the trainmen's and engineers' organizations, the idea being, of course, to dis- tribute the work as equitably as possible among all of the men, keeping them all employed just as long as we can. In doing this during periods of depression as you can readily understand, the lay-over not only at the home terminal, but away from the home terminal will be longer than if there is a free train move- ment. We feel that we suffer sufficiently from business depres- sion when it comes along, without having the penalty imposed 1 upon us paying these men after fifteen hours away from their home terminal, because we never let them stay there one min- ute longer than we can help, but get them around just as rap- idly as we can possibly do so, and as a rule, there is not much complaint on that account, because it can only occur at certain periods. When business is free, you probably never would hear of a case of this kind, and at the present time there are certain roads having varied rules. In the printed rules for the different roads which we submit as an exhibit for the eastern roads, you. will notice there are only a few of the roads that have a rule of this kind, and they vary very materially. I notice that they Xun from 18 to 24 hours on the 52 railroads east of Chicago, and as I say, as I remember, they are not over a dozen of the roads that have a rule of this kind. Application of the 16-hour law. The railroads object to the proposed modification of the rule governing the time of service under the 16 hour law, for the following reasons: (1) It will in most cases require the railroads to pay a minimum day's pay for the short time required to complete a non-completed trip which has been interrupted in order to com- ply with the 16 hour law, for which the engineer has already re- ceived a full day's compensation, plus the overtime. (2) And is more onerous that the existing rules which are and service which it does not receive. (3) And is more onerous that the existing rules which are based upon agreement of April 1st, 1908, between the western railroads and the several employees' organizations, including 166 the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, which reads as fol- lows: (I believe Mr. Stone subscribed to this rule, either he or some representative of his organization, and it is a rule which is in effect at the present time on the eastern roads) : "Road crews tied up under the law will be paid the time or mileage of their schedules from initial point to tie-up point. When such crew resumes duty on a continuous trip, they will be paid miles or hours, whichever is greater, from the tie-up point to the next tie-up point, or to the terminal. It is under- stood that this article does n&t permit crews to be run through, terminals unless such practice is permitted under their sched- ules." I think this rule was prepared by the men themselves, — I am not sure of that — Mr. Stone could probably answer that bet- ter than I could ; but it was satisfactory at any time it was made, evidently, and I do not see any sound reason why we should change it. Mr. Judson: Is that in force now? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Judson: On the western roads? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Shaw : As you have it there, is it dated, Mr. Worthing- ton? Mr. Worthington: It is; April 1st, 1908. Mr. Shaw: Four years ago? Mr. Worthington: Yes. One point I forgot to mention rel- ative to the 15-hour rule, if that rule were enforced, would force the railroads to run trains light back to their home terminals or dead-head them in over the road. That would be the effect of it, and I feel that that is an expense we ought not to be put to. Exhibit 32, you have there. You will notice that is an ex- hibit which shows the number of freight trains run, the num- ber of trains exceeding 16 hours, and the number of trains tied up under the 16 hour law, from April, 1911 to March, 1912, in- clusive, by individual roads. The first column shows that the total number of freight trains run was 3,447. By the second column you will notice that the number of trains exceeding 16 hours, was 27,888. And you ±ot will notice by column No. 6 that this was .8 of one per cent, of the total. Also you will notice by column 5 that the total number of trains tied up under the 16 hour law, was 27,229, or .78 of one per cent, of the total, which would leave the difference between the 27,888 and 27,229, or 659 trains that did not comply with the law. Those no doubt are some of the trains that Mr. Stone re- ferred to as being out an excessive number of hours. In other words, the percentage of trains that did not comply with the law was only .15 of one per cent. It might also be said, gentlemen, that where a man has been laid out 40, 50, 60 or 70 hours, as stated by Mr. Stone, that it is fair to state that that man was not pulling tonnage, if he was tied up at some place, he was either sleeping on his engine or he was in some hotel that was available taking his rest; because he could not possibly be hauling tonnage ; he would be getting some- where in that time on any freight run of 100 or 150 miles. Just a few words now in regard to electric service. Mr. Judson: Before you leave, Mr. Worthington, these de- lays, I see from the statement of causes are largely owing to ex- ceptional weather conditions. Mr. Worthington : I omitted to mention that, gentlemen. 1 am glad you called my attention to that, Mr. Judson. During this last winter the railroads of this country experienced about the worst winter that we have ever had, and the period for which thai statement is made up would probably show the worst conditio! that could possibly exist. That is, if you were to have a table foi the year previous to that it would not show up anything like that But that is our worst situation and we want you to know jusl what the facts are. It is not exactly the same period used bj Mr. Stone, as I did not know what period he was going to use but both of them cover that winter. I think he used ten months Mr. Stone: Nine months. Mr. Worthington: Well, we used a little longer period. Mr. Judson: But they both take in the winter of 1911-12? Mr. Worthington: Yes. I do not want to make it appeal that Mr. Stone has misrepresented the matter at all. The fig ures he got are no doubt correct.. The engineers of course, can not always take the same view of operating questions on tin road that we do. They do not always know just why they an held out of terminals. They are not in a position to see thai 168 and lots of times we believe perhaps they might not feel as badly about it if they really understood it. And with reference to movement under the 16 Hour Law, I do not believe there is any railroad manager on any of the railroads east of Chicago that starts any train out with the idea that it is going to consume anything like 16 hours. The schedules do not call for it and the trains are not loaded down to the extent of causing it. But we do have engine failures, and we will have other things that occur on the road that will cause these men to be put beyond the limit. But as you will notice the percentage, take even the worst view of it there, the percentage of trains that have been held up under the 16 Hour Law is less than one per cent, of the total trains run, and we would not think that is a very bad showing. Mr. Judson: This is a fact, Mr. Worthington, that as a rule terminal facilities in our cities of this country are inade- quate for any exceptional conditions? Mr. Worthington: Wholly inadequate, wholly so. We will produce an exhibit giving you some idea of the expenditures that a number of the larger railroads will be required to make within the next decade, and the figures are something astound- ing. And yet we will hardly then be keeping pace with the growing traffic of this country. If the railroads to-day were to have a sudden inrush of business the same as we had in 1907, we simply would not be able to cope with the situation. That is our condition to-day. The railroads need money for all sorts of things. We feel that our employees ought to realize that, and we feel that when they are getting liberally rewarded for their services they ought to be ready and willing to help us. Because if the return to capital is to be constantly narrowed down, we are soon going to reach a period where capital will not have much confidence in railroad investments in this country, and the ultimate effect will be to retard the growth of the country. There is not any question about that. That is some- thing that you gentlemen, it seems to me, want to consider very carefully. Mr. Morrissey: I note, Mr. Worthington, that there is noth- ing in this table to show the number of trains run on the New York Central in that period or the number of trains that ex- ceeded the 16 hours. 169 Mr. Worthington: What is the number of that! Mr. Van Hise : No. 32, there are statistics missing for sev- eral roads. The Chairman : Boiled through. Mr. Worthington: Well, they did not submit any data. I can get their replies and give them to you. Some of the roads did not have the data, and those that did not— they did submit the data after this table was prepared and we can give it to you. Mr. Van Hise : Then it can be corrected so we can have it before us? Mr. Worthington: The. New York Central, what can you say for the New York Central, Mr. Smith? Mr. Smith: We furnished the data and I supposed it was there. Mr. Worthington: Mr. Smith says he can furnish the data for the New York Central. Mr. Van Hise : Will you see that the table is in before it is printed by our stenographers, so it will be all in one table rather than partly in one place and partly in another. Mr. Worthington : Surely we will correct that table and sub- mit a corrected table. Now on electric service, generally speaking, good electric service has the following advantages over steam service : (a) Less preparatory technical training, requiring from a steam engineer only from 3 to 15 days. You may wonder why I state a few variations. The most of the roads have about five days, but the New Haven has a 15 day rule. The Vice President of the New Haven told me, however, that five will serve just as well. (b) Less experience. In fact a steam fireman — Mr. Van Hise: Does that mean in regard to running that locomotive or does that include the knowledge of signals and so forth? Is that additional training or complete training! Can you take a man who has never run one of these trains and put him on a run in 5 or 15 days ? Mr. Worthington : No, a man who had to go on the road and learn the train rules and become familiar with the signals and everything of that kind, would probably take a year at least. Mr. Van Hise: This is an additional training? 170 Mr. Worthington : This is an additional training for a steam locomotive engineer. Mr. Shaw : For a man who already knows the railroad thor- oughly. Mr. Worthington : Yes. The comparison might be put this way : To learn to become a steam locomotive engineer, he ought to have about three years' experience; to learn to become a motorman on an electric locomotive or a multiple unit train, a year ought to be ample. Mr. Van Hise : What would you say about running the heavy limited trains with the independent electric engines, for instance, . out from the Grand Central Station of the New York Central? Mr. Worthington: There is a difference between that and running a multiple unit train. They should be graded this way : first, the steam locomotives; second, the electric locomotives;, third, the multiple unit train. A fireman can learn to run an electric locomotive or multi- ple unit train quite as quickly as an engineer, if he knows the rules the same as the engineer does. (c) Less mechanical responsibility, as there is less appara- tus to look after. He has no boiler to take care of, he has no injectors to look after, he has nothing on the boiler head. All he has is a controller, and he has no trouble at all in handling the engine. While on an electric locomotive some of them have side rods, they have very little trouble with those, and seldom anything happens to them. (d) There is less physical labor. (e) No supervision of the boiler or of the fireman in look- ing after the injectors, lubricators, and maintenance of boiler pressure necessary to supply the steam for the locomotives. Gentlemen, the power in an electric locomotive and mul- tiple unit train is generated in a power house ; the engineer has nothing to do with it; while on the locomotive the engineer and firemen develop their own power. (f) Cleaner and more agreeable position due to: First, the elimination of the boiler; Second, the elimination of coal and steam; (g) Smaller outlay for overalls and clothing in general. 171 (h) A greater mileage can be made in a given time. We will submit an exhibit of a test which was made on tl West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, which is owned by the Pen sylvania, by a committee of engineers, three road foremen i engines, and three of the locomotive engineers, one of whom understand is a member of the General Committee in whi< they made a series of tests, and they reported to the manag ment that in a given time the multiple, unit train, I think it wj — it was either an electric locomotive or multiple unit train — tl exhibit will show — could perform about 16 miles more, I thir it is, in a given number of hours, than they could with a stea: locomotive because of the facility of handling. That repo: will speak for itself, however. (i) Less risk. There was something said about the risk to motormen o ■electric locomotives. We have an exhibit to show just wto that is. This exhibit is not quite complete that I have; tl New Haven Road was not ready to be put in, but we have tl: data now, and we will add that to this exhibit; but you migl like to see just what it amounts to there. Mr. Quick : The New Haven Road information came in th: morning, and will be put on the corrected chart possibly t< morrow. Mr. Van Hise: What is the number? The Chairman: S 1 /^, is it not? Mr. Worthington: That is not the chart. The chart tltf Mr. Shaw and Mr. Eidlitz are looking at, I will digress a m< ment to call attention to. Mr. Van Hise: The number please? Mr. Shaw: No. 27. Mr. Worthington : That chart is a chart made from a chai in the Journal of Locomotive Engineers, prepared by their Ii surance Department. Mr. Duncan: That is not correct. Mr. Worthington: In any event, the figures were take from the Journal, and I think that graphic chart was also. Thi chart shows the fatalities to engineers going back to 1900, fro: which it would seem there is no greater risk incident to the se vice at the present time, at least with the last several years. 172 Mr. Judson : Have you any opinion, Mr. Wortington, about the future of the use of electricity in our railroad systems! Mr. Worthington : I think the progress is going to be some- what slow. It probably will be used pretty generally around the large cities and places of that kind, but the first cost is extremely high, and it has been quite difficult to work out a satisfactory arrangement for switching yards. Ultimately it is quite likely that electric service will be general, but it is going to progress slowly; there is not much doubt of that. This Exhibit is No. 30. Motormfin or enginemen killed or injured in electric service. As you will notice on the Long Island The Chairman: What exhibit is that, please? Mr. Worthington : No. 30. As you will notice on the Long Island Eailroad by the second column, there were two killed, one in 1906, and one in 1907 ; on the New York Central none ; on the Pennsylvaia Lines one in 1906 ; on the Erie Railroad the report shows no accident since the installation of electric ser- vice. I find that there was one accident on the Erie where a steam locomotive engineer was either killed or injured by getting up on his cab and touching a wire, or doing something of that kind. I am looking that up, and we will submit the facts in regard to that case. Mr. Morrissey : When was the system installed on the Erie Eailroad? Mr. Worthington: About five years ago. The chart shows 1907. On multiple unit suburban service in addition to the fore- going, there are the following advantages: (a) They are not required to go to the engine house. They go and get on the train just like they do on one of •these trolleys, the same as you would as a passenger. When they get to the end of the run they get off the same way. ■ (b) They are not responsible for bearings or running gear. (c) Easier riding. Just as comfortable in there as it is in any part of the train. (d) Greater mileage by electric than steam locomotive can be made in a given time. 173 We will put witnesses on the stand to show how flexible the 'electric service is in comparison with steam service, and it can be handled with very much greater facility. Taking, for instance, the Broad Street station in Philadelphia, where they use steam service, in comparison with Long Island, where they have a heavy electric service, it increases the track capacity about 60 per cent. here. We will have a representative of the Long Island Eailroad explain that matter more fully to you, and give you the detail. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Worthington, have you any statement showing the total number of engineers employed in the electric -service of each of these lines? Mr. Worthington: If we have not, we can get it for you. I think we have. . Mr. Judson : Mr. Worthington, will not these advantages that you have described, probably lead to the general intro- duction of the electric service, say for suburban service? Mr. Worthington: I think so. Mr. Judson: In connection with the large cities? Mr. Worthington: I think so. I think most railroads, es- pecialy around larger cities, will eventually go into electric service for suburban service. On Exhibit 4, Mr. Morrissey, you will find there are four on the Erie, and seventy on the New York Central, 44 on the New York, New Haven & Hartford, 63 on the Pennsylvania Lines East, but it does not include the multiple unit motors on any of the lines. The Chairman : Is there any data in your exhibits showing the compensation of the engineers on the electric cars so that it can be compared with the compensation that is now paid to the engineers of steam engines? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Some of our exhibits there will show that. Now speaking of that, I want to say one word with refer- ence to the precedent — I might say the alleged precedent, as established by the New York Central and New York, New Haven & Hartford. They are paying the same rates as to steam engineers. There is a very good reason for it. The runs are very short, running out here to High Bridge and out a little further on 174 some of the other runs, and it was difficult to get the time out of the men. Furthermore — - Mr. Eidlitz : What do you mean by that remark, Mr. Worth- ington? Mr. Worthington: Because on the short runs going back- wards and forwards the men run first in and first out, you know, and you have to make a rate that will fairly compensate them. Now, they started out with the theory that the rates would be fixed as soon as the electrified zone had been completed, and the rule which covers that has been carried forward from year to year because they have not yet completed the electrified zone. On the other roads there is a difference in the two, and we will show you by our exhibits just what that difference is, and we think that difference is justified. There is one point where the engineers and railroads have no difference, with reference to the seniority rights of engi- neers. We do not feel that engineers should not be allowed to take the places of men who would run on electric motors that are put in the place of steam engines. We do not object to that, but we do think they should take them on the conditions of service. That does not always mean a reduction in wages, but because of the feasibility of handling this new power, you can get a larger number of miles out of the men in a given time and we feel they should accept those conditions. We do have a difference between the men, however, with reference to trackage rights. We feel that the railroads should have the right to lease a trackage right to another road that wants to use their rails for a certain distance, and that they ought not to interfere with the men who man those motors. We feel if we lease a trackage right to them and they have their own men on those machines, that that is not any of our business, and that we ought to have that right the same as we do when we lease a trackage right for steam engines. There is never any question about it, and the engineers do not insist they should come in and take the steam engines away from other roads. The Chairman: What is their claim about that! Mr. Worthington : Well, I have not been quite clear myself, excepting the way this reads. Did you notice the way it reads? "Any change from steam to electricity or other motive 175 power in any form at any point on the system such power will be manned by engineers and paid according to the service for the territory affected, or where electric or multiple unit trains enter upon steam tracks or tracks formerly operated by steam or where trackage rights are leased to holding companies they shall be operated by engineers operating steam trains on said tracks. ' ' We do not agree to that. Mr. Duncan: The Long Island people can bring that out very clearly. Mr. Worthington: Yes, we will bring that out more in detail. Mr. Shaw : "Was there any reason why the man operating a multiple unit train should not also be included in the number of electrical engineers in your table! I understood they were not included, but only the men operating the electric locomo- tives. Mr. Duncan : I do not know of any reason, unless Mr. Smith can tell. Mr. A. H. Smith: They are included and interchangeable; a man goes out with a multiple unit train and comes in with a locomotive. Mr. Worthington: They are included? Mr. Smith : They are included. Mr. Worthington: My statement then is not correct! Mr. Duncan: That statement is undoubtedly correct as to the New York Central, but cannot be correct as to the Long Island Railroad, because the Long Island Eailroad reports no electrical engineers when, as a matter of fact, they run a big lot of multiple unit trains. Mr. Thornton advises me that they were not included as engineers, because they treat them as motormen. Mr. Henry W. Thornton: We have no electrical engineers. They are considered, in our service, as motormen — they ope- rate the multiple unit trains. Mr. Duncan : That is the reason they were not included. Mr. Morrissey: Just a question, suggested by the state- ment made by Mir. Smith : How would you differentiate in the pay of an electric engineer who goes out on a multiple unit train and returns on an electric engine! 176 Mr. Worthington: I suppose, if we have that to contend 1 with, that we would always reach the high spot, like we do now. If we pay for two classes of service, we have to pay for the higher; that is usually the case. I do not say, gentlemen, that is wrong, I think we ought to give the men the benefit, and we always do it. Now, with reference to the stricter physical examination of applicants, and stricter discipline. Mr. Judson: Is that complained of anywhere? Mr. Worthington: Yes, that is one of the points, I believe. There has been no change since the last adjustment of wages, that I can find, in the physical examination of applicants. The railroads do not impose any unnecessary physical examinations upon their men. In the interest of public safety, we must as- sure ourselves that their eyesight is good, and is not defective, and see that they are not colorblind. As for the claim that 15 per cent, of the firemen are dropped out because of defective eyesight, due largely to the intense heat of the firebox of the locomotives, and to things flying up from the road and striking them, that is something entirely new to me. I have been in this business for 38 years, and I never dropped a fireman dur- ing that time because of defective eyesight incident to any in- jury that he received from looking into the firebox. In our shops where men have to look into heated furnaces which are heated to a very much greater intensity than a locomotive fire- box, the men always use some sort of colored glasses. Fire- men could do that, if necessary, but none of them have ever thought it was necessary. Men are dropped for color blindness and we have to assure ourselves that the vision of engineers is sufficiently good to see signals. , The rules, as Mr. Stone states, that govern the examination, are made by the railroad surgeons. I will admit that, in some cases, rules have been put into effect on some of the roads that seemed to be unduly severe. I think the most of them have, however, been modified. I do not believe there are any unreasonable ones to-day. It is like some of the other things that have been mentioned in railroad practice; sometimes officials will unwisely make some ruling or do something that the men take exception to, and which are not approved of by the managements of the roads, and some trouble creeps in, in that way. As for the strict discipline and the 177 dropping out of engineers for slight offenses ; I doubt if any of the railroads east of Chicago get rid of an engineer except for a capital offense. We do not gain by it, most of the roads like to keep their engineers — Mr. Judson: What do you mean by "capital offence"? Mr. Worthington : That would be drunkenness, or where he has run by a signal, a danger signal — where he has passed right by a signal of danger. Now, Mr. Stone suggested- that sometimes they put the nose of their pilot beyond the signal and lose their positions by that. I would regard that as quite severe, if any good engineer has been relieved from service for such a thing as that; but I doubt if things of that kind are being done, be- cause it would not be a wise policy for the railroad management. The engineers, as a rule, are pretty good men — I have said that in the first instance. I do not want to get rid of my engineers. 1 am not going to let one of them go if I can help it ; he has got to do something pretty bad before we drop him out of the ser- vice. By the exhibits which I will refer to in a moment, you will notice that they live to pretty advanced years and they are a pretty good looking lot of men. Although Mr. Stone referred to the decreased vitality of these men, if the ones that are be- fore us here to-day are fair representatives, they certainly have not lost any vitality. They are very good looking men, and the engineers on the road, as a class, are sound, able bodied men and are the highest class of skilled workmen. Mr. Judson: Haven't some states passed statutes on that subject of color blindness? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. I have not in mind just the ones that have, but they have. It is absolutely necessary to en- force rules of that kind, in the interest of public safety. Mr. Judson: That is in the interest of public safety? Mr. Worthington : Yes, because if a man is color blind he is likely to run by a red signal— it is necessary we should do these things. Mr. Shaw: Did you understand Mr. Stone as in any way criticising these rules on the ground of their severity? I under- stood him to refer to them, not as a criticism for being strict but as seeming thereby to entitle the men to special consideration. Mr. Worthington : Perhaps I did not understand him aright. 178 Mr. Judson : Yes, I understood him so. Mr. Worthington : If I did not understand him aright, let. us take up the other angle of it. At any rate, there lias been no change in the last two years, since the last adjustment. Let us take up the other angle. Mr. Stone did say, if I remember aright, that the working life of the engineers was about 11 years and 7 days, and that that was his whole stock in trade, and that he should be liberally rewarded on that account. It' you will refer to Exhibit No. 28, you will see that table shows the ages of the locomotive engineers in active service on the 52 : railroads. There is a small summary up at the top, on the left hand side. You will notice the total number of engineers is 31,673. The little summary on the left hand corner shows that 49.6 per cent, of these men are over 40 years of age, and 21.4 per cent, are over 50 years of age. The average age of all of the en- gineers on the 52 roads east of Chicago is 42 years. Now, gentlemen, turn to Exhibit 29, the following one ; that is a statement showing the length of service of the locomotive engineers on the railways in the eastern territory, and has a similar summary in the left hand corner. You will notice, gentlemen, that notwithstanding the fact that about fifty per cent, of these engineers are under 40 years of age, that the aver- age length of service of these engineers as shown in the last column is 12.4 years. Fifty per cent of them are under 40 years of age. They are all pretty active men at the present time, at least we presume they are, as they are performing service, and their average length of service at the present time is 12.4 years. Mr. Morrissey : But, Mr. Worthington, is that years in ser- vice as engineers, or, strictly, years in service which would include their time as firemen? Mr. Worthington: This is years in service as engineers,, and does not include their service as firemen. Mr. Shaw : Are there any statistics in existence which would indicate the average length of service of men who have ceased to serve, and whose records are complete 1 ? Mr. Worthington: I have not anything of that kind, Doc- tor. Mr. Shaw: You understand, of course, the point I was try- ing to get at? 179 Mr. Worthingtcm : Yes. Mr. Shaw: That would become a matter of historical fact ^and record, as to how long the men who have dropped out of service had actually served. Mr. Worthington : I did not happen to think of that, or I might have had that worked up also. I tried to work up every- thing I could possibly think of. Mr. Shaw: Could you give us some sort of an opinion in a general way? Mr. Worthington : I really could not. Mr. Shaw: These men already in service have actually ; served 12.4 years, and it is presumable that these individual men will, upon the average, continue to serve for a certain number of additional years, on which one might make a certain total. Opinions might differ, but suppose I should say that hypothetically the additional years would give them an aver- age of twenty years or possibly more, it would be rather in- teresting to know if the men who have dropped out in the history of a given road have served, let us say, a certain num- ber of years in excess of twenty years. Mr. Worthington : I will see if we can get that information. It would be quite a job; we would have to call on 52 roads to work it up. Mr. Shaw: I had no thought of its being worked out elab- orately or exhaustively, but only in such way as to give us an indication. I think that could be easily done, perhaps. Mr. Worthington: I would think the view which you have would be about correct, when we have 50 per cent of these engi- neers under 40 years of age. It would seem, judging by the fact that the other 50 per cent, are over that, and all mostly healthy men at the present time, of sound bodies, that they ought to have an expectancy of life about as you suggest. It would seem so to me. i Mr. Shaw : I should think the Brotherhood might have some statistics which might bear upon that point. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Worthington, when do you begin the date of a man's years of service as an engineer, Mr. Worthington: Prom the time he is classed as a loco- motive engineer. Mr. Morrissey: Well, might there not be circumstances 180 under which men are classed as engineers, an I for a number' of years they run but very little as engineers ? Mr. Wortliington : What places have you in mind ? Mr. Morrissey: Well, I have in mind the case of a western road wbick under its rules, qualifies firemen as engineers, and they are put on the board, and in some instances, 1 am told r they have as high as two and three years age as engineer, and have run only an occasional trip. Mr. Wortliington: Well, if they do anything of the kind on the western roads, I have not lieard that they do anything like that in the eastern territory. I cannot understand the object of it. What do they gain by it ? Mr. Morrissey : Well, it seems to be a practice on that road,, and they gain this : That if an engineer is employed in the meantime actually as an engineer, he will have to take a posi- tion behind those men on the seniority list, although they are not running engines at the time. Mr. "Wortliington: Then the object of that, I suppose, is to protect the seniority of the men on that road. I do 'not think anything of that kind would change these averages on a statement of this kind. I do not think it is the practice on these roads here. I do not know of it. Mr. Morrissey: A man may qualify as an engineer to-day a depression of business may follow, and he might actually serve as a fireman for the next two years, although Ms date as an engineer would begin from to-day. Mr. W T orthington : Suppose that were true, Mr. Morrissey, that would not have a tendency to affect Ms average years of service or his average life, would it? That is what this state- ment is to cover. Mr. Morrissey: It might influence these statistices, probably not appreciably, so far as his service as an actual engineer is concerned. Mr. Wortliington: I doubt whether that would change ma- terially the number of men that would be classified under and over 40. It would probably not change it one per cent, if one road did something of that kind. I do not know that any road does, and I am not prepared to say that some roads in the east may not do that. If they do it, they do it for the purpose of 1S1 protecting the seniority of their own men. The railroad man- agement could gain nothing by it. Right there that prompts a suggestion, with refererce to the inability of an engineer, when he retires from one road, to .get employment on another. Mr. Chairman : May I interrupt you there, before you got on that question, Mr. Worthington! Mr. Worthington : Certainly. The Chairman : T understood Mr. Stone yesterday to rite the fact that the average age of insurance of the engineer was eleven and some fraction years, and that his purpose in shew- ing that was to prove that the life of engineers was shorter than the life of persons in other employments. Am I correct, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone: That is correct, yes, sir. Mr. Worthington : Might T ask if that inclu le^ engineers who are members of the B. of L. F. ant E.? Mr. Stone: No, sir. If I may interrupt for a moment? The Chairman : Certainly. Mr. Stone: The figures I presented, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Worthin°'ton, were the figures from our Insurance Department, showing the number of killed and crippled that we had raid insurance for from 1897 up to the present time. 8,034, I be- lieve was tbe number, as I recall it, and the average insured age was 11 years and 7 days, and insurance was compulsory "with us. Mr. Judson: Mr. Stone, you mean by that that is the aver- age age of those who have died. You do not attempt to show the average Mr. Stone: They are all included in there. When a man becomes a member, we write a policy. Mr. Judson : I know, but the 11 years was the insured life of those who have died, and whose policies you have paid. Mr. Stone : Yes, sir, all we have paid for. Mr. Van Hise: All that have retired from service as engi- neers. Mr. Stone : No ; I don't say that. Mr. Van Hise: Not even that? The Chairman : I would suggest that in connection it might 182 !be advisable to compare the average age of insurance of the locomotive engineers with the average age of insurance gener- ally. Otherwise, those figures might be very misleading. I speak with some experience upon that point, because of some familiarity with the average duration and life policies in some of the large life insurance companies.' Mr. Worthington : I made an earnest effort to get some statistics from the old line companies in regard to the average life and different employments, in the hope that I might be able to give the information to your Board, but I was unsuc- cessful in getting it, and they told me that information was strictly confidential. I want to say, though, with reference to Mr. Stone's point — he says it covers 8,000 engineers. The stat- istics which I have just given cover 31,673 engineers. Under the B. of L. E. regulations — if I am not correct, you might correct me, Mr. Stone — I understand that an engineer has to run a year before he can take out insurance in your organization. Mr. Stone: Six months now, Mr. Worthington. Mr. Worthington : Is it six months ? Mr. Stone: Yes; it used to be a year. Mr. Worthington: Six months. I am wrong about that. One other feature: The reason for my inquiring if it included the B. of L. F. & E. is that the engineers in the B. of L. F. & E. are firemen, the younger men, and if their average was in- cluded with the B. of L. E., it naturally would increase it con- siderably. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, might I ask a question for in- formation? I have not the records, and I would like to get the information if I might be permitted to ask a question. The Chairman: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : In arriving at this 12 years and four tenths, Mr. Worthington, did you take into account the men who, from various causes, have dropped out of service also, or is this the average term of service of the men that are still left in the service 1 Mr. Worthington : Mr. Quick prepared that -statement. Mr. Quick: 20 years. Mr. Worthington: It reads at the head, "Age of locomo- tive engineers in active service." 183 Mr. Stone: Then I would take from that that it does not take into account the number of men who, during the teim for which these figures have been made up for, dropped out of ser- vice for different causes. Mr. Worthington : No, it does not. Mr. Stone: Just simply the survival of the fittest? Mr. Worthington: Well, I don't know whether you would call it the survival of the fittest. We took all the men in ser- vice, all the engineers in active service. Mr. Judson: Mr. Willard, you were one who dropped out of the service. Mr. Worthington : Gentlemen, I have about finished all that I have to say at the present time. After the engineers get through with their witnesses we would like to put some witnesses on the stand and I will, if you please, act as a witness, and will be glad to subject myself to cross-examination from the other side. Mr. Van Hise: Does this conclude your opening statement? Mr. Worthington : It does. Mr. Van Hise : Then I would like to ask this question before you close as to whether certain facts are in here. Do these statistics which you have submitted include, first, the mileage, double and single track and total and terminal mileage for each of the railroads? Mr. Worthington: I think it does. Have we not a table showing the mileage here? Mr. Duncan : It only shows the mileage. Mr. Van Hise : On the single mileage basis ? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Worthington: It shows the total mileage. Mr. Van Hise: For each road? Mr. Duncan: For each road. Mr. Worthington: Separately. Mr. Van Hise : The total single mileage basis for each road. That probably will be sufficient. Mr. Worthington: The total revenue mileage, we call it. Mr. Van Hise : Second, do your statistics show the bonds, preferred stock and common stock for each of the roads? Mr. Duncan : We have a statement that will probably be ready in time. 184 Mr. Van Hise : I should like that to be furnished. Mr. Duncan: We haven't it ready yet. Mr. Van Hise: The bonds, preferred stock and common stock for each of the roads separately. Third, do your statis- tics show the physical valuation of the railroads? Mr. Duncan: It does not. Mr. Van Hise: Does it show it for any one of them? Mr. Duncan: It does' not. Mr. Van Hise: Are the railroads in a position to furnish it for any of the railroads? Mr. Duncan : I do not believe they are. Mr. Worthington: It would be a tremendous task. Mr. Van Hise: I should like to have any informaiton you have on that point. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Robbins, general counsel for the New Haven, says he can furnish it for the New Haven. Mr. Van Hise: I request that it be furnished for any rail- road that is able to furnish it. Mr. Duncan: We will bear that in mind. Mr. Van Hise: Fourth, I should like to know if the statis- tics furnished show the percentage between the fast and slow freight trains. Have you the fast and slow freight trains classi- fied separately? Mr. Duncan: I have not. I think we could get that up for you, but it would take some time to get it prepared. Mr. Van Hise: That is not so very important, but if a rough approximation could be made it might be of some assist- ance. Mr. Worthington: I think we might be able to accept Mr. Stone's approximation. I think he said about 25 and 75 or 30 and 70 or something like that. Mr. Van Hise : If that is satisfactory. Mr. Worthington : Yes, it would not be materially different. Mr. Stone: I simply made a rough guess. I have no data at hand. Mr. Van Hise: Fifth, are there records — of course, the records of dismissal and causes for engineers during some pe-, roid of years. Mr. Duncan: We have no statistics on that. Would you like to take it up for some of the roads? 185 Mr. Van Hise: It has a certain relation to some of these questions. If we could have certain information I would not ask it for all the roads, because it would be too large a task and would not give us enough information to make it really worth while, but if we could get some idea from some of the larger systems as to the number of dismissals and the causes which lead to those dismissals — Mr. Duncan : I think we can get some information on that point. It may be delayed a little. Mr. Judson: Mr. Stone, I think, gave a bulletin of causes for dismissals, going to a few months. Mr. Stone: Showing all kinds of discipline. The Chairman: The session will close and we will recon- vene at 2:30 P. M. (Whereupon, at 12:40 a recess was taken until 2:30 o'clock P. M.) AFTER EECESS. 2 :3U P. M. The Chairman : I desire to announce that the Board has se- lected, as one of its secretaries, Dr. C. William A. Veditz, Pro- fessor of Economics of G-eorge Washington University, and former Economic Expert in the Department of Commerce and Labor and also of the Tariff Board. Mr. Van Hise desires to ask several additional questions of the railroads, which he had not completed at this morning's session. Mr. Van Hise: I asked for a table of the capitalization. I should be glad to have included the mileage, so as to show the mileage capitalization as well as the total. Mr. Duncan : Do you mean the railroad mileage or the single" track mileage 1 Mr. Van Hise: Single track mileage. That would be the simplest basis. In connection with the same, I should be glad to have, if it can be furnished, the very exceptional terminal facility charges which have been had in the last three or four 186 or five years, which have been added on the roads, because that has a bearing upon the capitalization, because there are roads which have added great sums in that way, which make them somewhat exceptional. Mr. Duncan: I think we have that. Mr. Van Hise: Then, in addition, the income distributions. I do not mean in complete detail, nor would I wish to make the railroads make up distributions which would involve going over their books and making an entirely new distribution, but distri- bution to this extent, so far as their books readily show it — taxes,, maintenance, in the sense of repair and improvement accounts, • c nd in the matter of wages, and wages, so far as the groups are- concerned, of conductors, firemen and engineers. Mr. Duncan: We will get that for you. We haven't it in just that shape. Mr. Van Hise : Then of course total operation — that would not include total operation — the amount of money from income which has been put into terminal improvements, so far as is available. Mr. Duncan : I think we can get that, but I do not know how long it will take us to get it. Mr. Worthington: That particular information is in one of the exhibits. Mr. Van Hise : I haven 't had time to examine all these ex- hibits and I do not know just how far it is covered. Of course, so far as it is covered by exhibits you now have, that will be adequate. Mr. Duncan : For what period do you want that last infor- mation? Mr. Van Hise : 1 will just add a little further — then, in the matter of the dividends, or the amount that has gone to capital, putting it more properly, dividing by interest charges and divi- dends to preferred stock, and to common stock, and the rate of them, total funded indebtedness — interest charges. Mr. Worthington: Most of that is contained in the annual reports. Mr. Van Hise: Yes, so far as those are contained in the annual reports or printed reports, or the Interstate Commerce Commission reports, reference to those will be entirely adequate. You will know where they are, so much more easily than I can 187 find thein, if you will make reference to them in the printed re- ports and furnish them, that will be satisfactory. Mr. Duncan : We will furnish those. Mr. Van Hise : Then, in regard to these matters, it will be advantageous to get the data for a certain number of years. You have been somewhat elastic in these statistics as to the years you have gone back; sometimes you have gone back to 1900 and at other times for four or five years. Let it be suffi- cient to show the trend of affairs. I should not wish to put down a definite number of years for any railroad. Probably, a suffi- cient number of railroads will have this information with suffi- cient fullness to furnish the essential details. Mr. Duncan : We will try to get that information before we finish here. We may not be able to get it before we complete the oral testimony, and, if we do not, we can submit it to you sub- .mitting copies to the other side. The Chairman : Are you through, Doctor. Mr. Van Hise : Yes. The Chairman : We will now proceed with giving the affir- mative to the engineers, and from what Mr. Stone stated, he now wishes to put on and examine witnesses. It is needless for me to say that doubtless the managers on each side will carry on the examination of witnesses in as brief a way as the circum- stances will permit. I think that is all the suggestion or intima- tion that I have to convey on that subject. Mr. Stone : If the Chair please, we have no desire to need- lessly prolong these sessions or the scope of this Board, and yet I should like, if possible, to get the fullest information available before you, and for that reason we desire to present a number of witnesses. These men are picked out from the various roads be- cause they come from the different classes of service, and I want to place them before you and have them tell their story to you, just exactly what they do. ■ The first man I want to introduce is a man from the New York Central, one of their crack performers on the 20th Cen- tury. I suppose, there are other engineers just as good in the country, but there are none better, and I would like to put Mr. Dean Woods, of the 20th Century, a New York Central engineer, on the stand. 188 Dean E. Woods was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone : Now, Mr. Woods, in replying to these questions you will have to talk a little slower than you generally do. You are not on the 20th Century now, and the stenographer cannot keep up with you. The Chairman: Don't you think it would be well for the witness to state his name, age, his position and his address? Mr. Stone? I think so. I do not think it materially matters in regard to his age. I don't suppose they will object to giving their ages. The Chairman : It only enables us to fix the individual bet- ter. Mr. Stone: Give your name, age, address, and the road you work for, and what divisions. Mr. Woods: Dean E. Woods, 46 years old, passenger en- gineer, Mohawk Division New York Central. I reside at Syra- cuse, New York. Mr. Stone : How long have you been an engineer, Mr. Woods ? Mr. Woods : 24 years. Mr. Stone : Eunning between Syracuse and Albany all that time? Mr. Woods : All that time, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I believe you stated you were in passenger ser- vice. What particular class of passenger service ? Mr. Woods : Fast passenger service. Mr. Stone: Are you called, or do you report for duty? Mr. Woods: No. I am called at my home terminal, Syra- cuse, by telephone. Mr. Stone: At what time of night are you called? Mr. Woods: 12.15 A. M. Mr. Stone : What time do you leave Syracuse ? Mr. Woods: 3.45. Mr. Stone: I wish you would explain to these gentlemen what is expected of you from the time you are called, at 12.15, A. M. until you leave at 3.45 A. M. What are your duties? Mr. Woods: I arrive at the engine house about 1.15, an 189 hour after I am called; register; examine the bulletin board, get a time slip signed, and examine the work report book; if the engine was brought in by another man, see what work was reported on the engine. I then go and find the engine and see if the work reported has been done, and give the engine a gen- eral inspection. Then, we have got tools, and a set of signals; and there is a hostler furnished at this point for nights. After my inspection he takes the engine out of the house, gets coal and water, and takes the engine down to the depot. I rid down to the depot on the engine, and take charge after she gets there. I compare my watch with the standard clock in the depot, oil around, and when the train comes in and the other engine cuts off, I back on to the train. I try the brakes, put on steam heat Mr. Stone: On those trains do you use steam hose the year round! Mr. Woods : Yes, sir, we do, on account of heating water. I compare my watch with the conductor, take train orders and messages from him, if there are any, and we are ready for the start. Mr. Stone: What is your running time between Syracuse and Albany? Mr. Woods : Two hours and 42 minuts. Mr. Stone : What is the mileage ? Mr. Woods: 148 miles. Mr. Stone: That is 162 minutes? Mr. Woods: 162 minutes. Mr. Stone : How much time are you expected to or allowed to make up? Mr. Woods : 12 minutes.. Mr. Stone : Then that cuts your running time, if the train is late, to 150 'minutes, is that correct? Mr. Woods: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How much time do you use in getting out through Syracuse? Mr. Woods: Eight minutes, through the streets? Mr. Stone: What is the distance? Mr. Woods: About a mile. Mr. Stone : You have 142 minutes left for 147 miles. Are there any other slow downs? 190 Mr. Woods: Yes, we have nine slow-downs between Syra- cuse and Albany. Mr. Stone: How slow? Mr. Woods : The lowest is eight miles an hour speed limit through the City of Utica. The others vary from 45 miles an hour to 40, and 35 in one. Mr. Stone: How many times do you scoop water on that run? Mr. Woods: Four times. Mr. Stone: Do you have to slow down each time for that? Mr. Woods : Yes, to 45 miles an hour speed limit. Mr. Stone: Counting out these slow-downs, what is your average rate of speed? Mr. Woods: I don't know. Mr. Stone: How fast do you run every night then? Mr. Woods: I suppose I have got to build up that speed to about 70 or 75 miles an hour, in places where I can, to over- come time lost getting the speed up after that slow-down. Mr. Stone: In that 148 miles of track how many block signals are there? Mr. Woods : About 150 ; 151 I think is right. Mr. Stone: Those are stop signals? Mr. Woods: Stop signals. Mr. Stone: You must catch those and locate them in all kinds of weather? Mr. Woods: Must get them. Mr. Stone: What time are you due to leave Syracuse com- ing east— 3.45? Mr. Woods: Albany, you mean? Mr. Stone: Coming east from Syracuse, you leave Syra- cuse at 3.45 in the morning? Mr. Woods: Yes, due in Albany at 6.27. Mr. Stone: After you arrive in Albany, at 6.27, what do you do? Mr. Woods: After the engine is cut off the train, take the engine up to the engine house, leave her on the ash pit track, give the engine a general inspection, report the work verbally to a work report clerk and then sign for the work — for the report. Make out a time slip, make out a detention 'report, to the Master Mechanic and Superintendent whether 191 there are any detentions or not; make out a telegraph report to the Master Mechanic whether there are any detentions or not. ***• Mr. Stone: What do you call detentions! Mr. Woods: There is a form we fill out. Mr. Stone : What would be considered a detention on that run — if you slowed down? Mr. Woods: Anything. Mr. Stone: If you slowed down your speed! Mr. Woods: Yes, on account of a signal or other things. Mr. Stone : Even though you did not stop ? Mr. Woods: Yes; that would be a detention. Also make out a report to the chief signal man of signal failures, if there are any, where we stop and slow down by a signal and didn't know the cause. Mr. Stone: In case any of those signals were out of order you would have to report them? Mr. Woods: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And you would have to know the number of the signal to report? Mr. Woods: Yes. We can refer to that; you couldn't mem- orize those. We have got those numbers in the time table. M}r. Stone: Then after you get all those reports out, then what? Mr. Woods: All through. Mr. Stone: How long does that take? Mr. Woods: Just about an hour after arrival. Mr. Stone: Is that a fair average time after arrival — one hour? Mr. Woods: Sometimes a little longer, sometimes less. Sometimes you want to find a man, the roundhouse foreman, and explain some particular thing to him, and he is arounS through the fifty stall roundhouse, and you might look an hour before you find him sometimes, and very likely don't get your man, pipe man, when you want to find him to explain something you couldn't report. Mr. Stone: Something that needs especial attention? Mr. Woods: Averages about an hour after you get off. Mr. Stone: On your return trip what time do you leave Albany? 192 Mr. Woods: 6:49. Mr. Stone: What time do you report? Mtr. Woods: Get around about 4:00 o'clock P. M. without a call; show up and report. Mr. Stone: What time do you arrive back at Syracuse? Mr. Woods: 9:33. Mr. Stone: And then you go through the same perform- ance every morning, time slips and work reports? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Stone: Signal reports — just the same as you did at Albany? Mr. Woods : The same thing. Mr. Stone: The same forms to fill out? Mr. Woods : The same forms. , Mr. Stone: What do you do with the engine — leave her with the hostler? Mr. Woods : No ; bring it to the ash pit. Mr. Stone: Leave her at the roundhouse or go to the ash pit? Mjr. Woods : Yes ; we go to the ash pit there, at Syracuse. Mr. Stone: How long does this take? Mr. Woods: Takes about an hour. Mr. Stone: So it is generally about 10:33 or 10:35 when you get off duty? Mr. Woods: About that time when I get home. Mr. Stone: That is all the questions I desire to ask him, Mr. Chairman. Ckoss-Examination. Mr. Smith : Mr. Woods, you do this every other day, do you not? Mr. Woods : Every other day. Mr. Smith: Every other clay? Mr. Woods: Yes, sir. Mr. Smith: The next day you perform no service at all? Mr. Woods: No service. Mjr. Smith: And they call you at 12:15 to go at 3:45? Mr. Woods: At my request. That was at my request. A little early, but I wanted that call. Mr. Smith: That is, you want the longer time? 193 Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: And you go to the engine house and look over your engine and ride down with the hostler so as to have a good opportunity to look her over. Mr. Woods: Before I leave the house. Mr. Smith: Otherwise your engine would be delivered to you at the passenger house and you could look her over there just before you went! Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: And the same way coming west out of Albany, at 4:00 o'clock, and you leave at 6:49,1 Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: You get there earlier then because you want more time to look her over? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: How many hours out of the 24 does that ser- vice take actually? Mr. Woods: How many hours out of the 24? Mr. Smith: Yes. Mr. Woods : From the time I report to the roundhouse to the time I leave the roundhouse to go home? Mr. Smith: I had better change the question. Out of 48 hours how long does it take, because it is every other day? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: How many hours need it be? Mr. Woods : Well, it would need to be an hour and a half 'before the train was due to leave according to instructions, and about an hour after we get in. Mr. Smith: That is about two hours and a half and three hours going down? Mr. Woods: That is about six hours each way. Mr. Smith: About six hours each way? Mr. Woods : Each way, it would be 12 hours. Mr. Smith: 12 hours out of 48? Mr. Woods : 12 hours out of 48, yes, sir. ■ * Mr. Smith: You bid that. one in because you wanted it— you liked the run? Mr. Woods: No. Mr. Smith: Don't you? Did you have to take it? 194 Mr. Woods: Yes, sir. Mr. Smith: I cannot realize you would have to take it. It is considered a desirable run, isn't it! Mr. Woods: No, not very good for a Syracuse man, living in Syracuse. Mr. Smith: Beter for an Albany man? Mr. Woods : Better for an Albany man, yes, sir. Mr. Smith : If you lived at Albany you would leave at 6 :49 and be back again at about 6:27 the next morning? Mr. Woods : In the morning. Mr. Smith: What compensation do you get for a month for that; how much do you draw a month when you make a full month. Mr. Woods : I get $12.45. Mr. Smith: How much? Mr. Woods: $12.45. Mr. Smith: A trip? Mr. Woods: For 15 trips. Mr. Smith: 15 times $12.45? Mr. Woods: About $186, I think, per month. Mr. Stone : Why do you get around these two or three h mrs beforehand ? Mr. Woods: Why, to get everything in shape before I leave the roundhouse. If you go down to the depot and find something wrong there, you will be apt to go wrong down the road, and possibly have a detention of the train, and have to wait for another engine? Mr. Stone: The fact remains, you are doing this to make a successful trip? Mr. Woods : Yes, to avoid the embarassment of engine fail- ure. Mr. Stone : What is the main thing that you fear on this fast run, Mr. Woods? Mr. Woods : Why, buckling up of these freight trains on an adjoining track. It is a four track road. Mr. Stone : You always feel better when you get by one ? Mr. Woods : Yes. Mr. Judson: What does he mean? Mr. Stone: Air hose breaking, or a truck breaking down, and they buckle up in the middle, and pile over two or three 195 tracks. In numerous cases where they have buckled up in the face of one of these fast trains, the man has been in it. (To the witness) : You have never had any accident on this run? Mr. Woods: No. Mr. Stone : Never have had a train buckle up in front of you? Mr. Woods : No. Mr. Stone: That is a foolish question to ask, because he would not be here if he had. I would like to recall that. You know of them buckling up, don't you? Mr. Woods: Yes, I have heard of them. Mr. Stone: There are a number of older men in the pas- senger service, there, than you? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Stone: You are one of the youngest passenger men, are you not? Mr. Woods: Quite a few young men, not many, I guess. Mr. Stone: Quite a number older? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Stone: They take the other runs out of preference? Mr. Woods: Yes, I think they do. Mr. Stone: That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Smith: Who is it that runs the Empire State Express • on the Mohawk Division? Mr. Woods: George Gilbert and Thomas Tighe. Mr. Smith: They are older than you? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: The Empire State Express has been running since about 1889, has it not? Mr. Woods: I don't know exactly, Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith : It has been running a great many years at any rate? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: 15 or 20 years, to your knowledge? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: On this same schedule, practically? Mr. Woods: One way, west. Mr. Smith: As a fast train, this train has been running for twenty years, on that schedule? 196 Mr. "Woods: Yes. Mr. Smith: That is all. Mr. Shaw: Mr. Straus wishes a little verification, as to- your pay. I understood you to say, you got $12.45 for a round trip, and made about 15 round trips a month. Mr. Woods: That is right. Mr. Shaw: Which came to about $186 a month? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Shaw: Which would come to $2,232 a year. I am multiplying 186 by 12, that is about correct? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Stone: Isn't it the fact that the Empire State Express,, on that division, is a daylight run? Mr. Woods: Daylight run. Mr. Stone : That is the reason why these men stay on that particular run? Mr. Woods: Yes. Mr. Stone: Did I understand you to say you were re- quested to bid for that run by the Company? Mr. Woods: The run was changed, and I was placed on there for ten days, and the run was bid off and I was asked to bid on the job the second time. I did not want it. Mr. Judson: To bid on it? Mr. Stone: To make application for it; we say to bid for it, to make application. The senior man would have the right to bid, but, in this particular case, the company selected the man they wanted to bid for it. They have that privilege on those particular runs. That is all I care to ask him. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: I would" like to have Mr. C. P. G-alleher called. He is one of the fast passenger men, from the Boston & Maine. C. P. Galleher was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: State your name, age and occupation, and th& road you work for and where. 197 Mr. Galleher: Charles P. Galleher, of the C. & P. Di- vision, South, on the Boston & Maine; 51 years old. Mr. Judson: What is the C. & P.? Mr. Galleher: That is the Connecticut & Passumpsic Divi- . sion. Mr. Stone: What class of service are you employed in? Mr. Galleher: Fast passenger. Mr. Stone: How long have you been an engineer? Mr. Galleher: Between 29 and 30 years. Mr. Stone: How long in the passenger service? Mr. Galleher : More or less all of the time; doing spare work. 1 did passenger work most of the time. Mr. Stone : You are in fast passenger service, at the present time? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Are you called or do you report for duty? Mr. Galleher: I report for duty. Mr. Stone: What time? Mr. Galleher: At 10:00 A. M., due to leave at 11:25. Mr. Stone : Explain what is expected of you after registering on duty or after signing the call book and reporting for duty? Mr. Galleher : Of course, I do not have to sign the call book. I report at the engine house and register out ; look over the re- pair book to see if there is work reported on the engine on the previous trip, and inspect the bulletin board and look for the new bulletin ; go to the engine, find her, wherever she is, and inspect the engine to be sure about that particular work, although the engine is inspected in a general way on the outside and also underneath very often, Mr. Stone: What do you do, after you go to the engine house ? Mr. Galleher: After I go to the engine house, after I find the engine ? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Galleher: I inspect the engine. Mr. Stone: Do you have engine inspectors? Mr. Galleher: No, sir, only underneath, as we cannot get under the engine outside of the house where we leave her. Mr. Stone : You are held responsible for the mspeeion of the engine? 198 Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir, in so far as we can see without going under the engine. Mr. Stone : After you have found the engine, then what do j ou do ? Mr. Galleher: See that the lubricators have been filled, see that the sand box has been filled, examine the gauge cocks and water glass and inspect the firebox, to see if they have not made any leaks since the engine was left by the former engineer, or if she was brought in leaking to see if she has been repaired; look over the grease cups to see if they have been filled and prop- erly locked, that is, the nuts that hold the plugs ; and, get the tools on to the engine, what we carry, hand tools; start the pump, get up the pressures, try the brakes and get out. We get water after crossing the table. Mr. Stone: Do you take your own engine out of the house? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir, and get water. After getting water, we get the signals and go to the passenger station. I register my watch at the passenger station, inspect the register book of opposing trains and see if there are any. After the train comes in, back on to the train, pump up the pressures, test the brakes and, after the conductor comes, compare watches and receive the clearance card or an order, and we are ready to go. Mr. Stone : Where do you run to ? Mr. Galleher : I run between White Eiver Junction, Vt., and Springfield, Mass., over two different railroads, which require, or the train has to be operated, under two different sets of rules, which we are examined under, two different sets of rules, and there is a difference in a very good many of the rules, quite a number of them. Mr. Stone: In other words, what would be the rule of op- eration on one track would be exactly different, or be different, on the other track! Mr. Galleher: Yes, it might be. Mr. Stone: What is the distance of your run? M|r. Galleher: 123 miles. Mr. Stone: What is the time? Mr. Galleher : 3 hours and 34 minutes, five stops. Part of this track is single track and part double. We have three sec- tions of single track and three sections of double track. 199 Mr. Stone : After you arrive at White Kiver Junction from Springfield, what do you do? Mr. G-alleher : I am going the other way, Brother Stone. Mr. Stone : Going south. All right. Mr. Galleher: After I arrive at Springfield! Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Galleher: There are a good many signals on the way down. Do you want to know about those! Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Galleher: 270. Mr. Stone : Yes, I think I would want to know about them if I was running there. What is that distance, the mileage? Mr. Galleher: 123 miles. Mr. Stone: 270 signals? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. That includes the automatic sig- nals, I am counting these signals, as some semaphore poiles have two blades and some only one, and I am counting each signal as a separate signal, which, of course, we have to see. Mr. Stone: You have to know the location of every one, do you not? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. That is, both signals govern the track, you see, so, wherever there is one pole with two signals on it, I call it two signals and not one. That includes the or- der board of all signals and interlocking signals and also me- chanical working signals that may be connected with any par- ticular bridge or switch. Now, besides that there are 45 fac- ing switches that we must catch the position of. That 45 is added to the 207. Mr. Stone: Do you take water during the run, or do you scoop water? Mr. Galleher: No, we have to stop to get water at two places. Mr. Stone : At tanks ? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : At these junction points where you come in on the single track, do you have to examine the register book? Mr. Galleher: No, sir, not on the southbound; we have the right of track. Mr. Stone: Going north you would have to, would you not? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. The conductor would have to ex- 200 amine the register book and know that the trains are all in and report to me, and bring me a clearance card. Mr. Stone: After you have got by these 100 signals and got in safely, then what do you do? M)r. Galleher: Then deliver the train to the station, then we cut away and go to the roundhouse, give the engine a thor- ough inspection, insofar as we can see without going under the engine, and give the engine over to the hostler. Mr. Judson: To what? Mr. G-alleher : To the hostler ; to the man who takes charge. Then if we find work that must be done, we go to tbe work book and report this work; make out any detention slips which may be necessary, on account of detention on the road, and also any cards that may be necessary with reference to signals ; then our work is over on that southbound trip. Mr. Stone: How long does this generally take you after your arrival? Mr. Galleher : Well, it varies from half an hour to an hour. Mr. Stone: From the time you report for duty until you are off duty at the other end of the run how many hours do you put in on the trip? Mr. Galleher: Between 5y 2 and 6. Mr. Stone: How much pay do you receive for that? Mr. Galleher: $5.12%. Mr. Stone: Do you make that run every day? Mr. Galleher : No, sir. That night I go back again, so that I make two days in one, or what we call a double trip. Mr. Stone: And then you lay over a day? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You make 16 round trips a month then? Mr. Galleher: Well, about that. Mr. Stone: A thirty day month? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir; we are paid by the week. Mr. Stone : That is so, you have the weekly pay-day up there. Well, the result is the same, anyway? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Going back you have the same condition, ex- cept that you go back in the night? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. I register on duty 6.30, due to leave at 8.25. 201 Mr. Stone: What time do you leave? Mr. Galleher : At 12.45, at night. Mr. Stone: What time do you get to the roundhouse? Mr. Galleher: What, in starting out on this trip? Mr. Stone : No, what time do you get away from the round- house, after arrival? Mr. Galleher: Oh, usually from 1.15 to 1.45 usually; some time between those two times. Our trip back is not as fast as the trip south. Mr. Stone: A slower train? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then under an ordinary 30-day month, if I figure correctly, you make about $153.75, or something like that? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir; we are paid on the basis of $410 for 100 miles, 41 cents an hour, or 4.1 cents per mile. Mr. Stone : That is all the questions, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Stone, are you through? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Cross-Examination. Mr. Duncan : You said you spent part of your time watch- ing the switch points as well as the signals. What did you mean by that? Mr. Galleher: I mean this, that a facing switch is where it opens facing towards me, as I am headed. Suppose I am going south, that facing switch would be open to the north. Therefore, if the switch target was wrong, I would enter the side track, and it wouldn't be well to go into the side track running at the rate of about a mile to a minute and a half. Mr. Duncan: That is what you call a facing point switch? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And you have to watch those, you say? Mr. Galleher: Have to watch the target in connection with the switch, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Are those facing point switches protected by your automatic signal system? Mr. Galleher: The automatic signals are supposed to de- note that there is something wrong in the block. Provided a 202 '] *[ switch would be open, the signal should denote there was some- thing wrong in that block. Mr. Duncan : So that would give you the notice of the open- ing of the facing point switch, would it not! Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How much warning would you have in ad- vance ! Mr. Galleher: A double block, — two blocks. Mr. Duncan: And that would give you time to stop, would" it not? Mr. Galleher: Oh, yes, sir. I would have to watch the switch just the same. Mr. Duncan: But, you get the signal? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir; I would get it if it was working: properly. Mr. Duncan: What are the two roads over which you oper- ate! Mr. Galleher: Central Vermont and Boston & Maine. Mr. Duncan: How much of the trackages on the Boston & Mainel? Mr. Galleher: 100 miles. Mr. Duncan: How much on the Central Vermont! Mr. Galleher : Well, between 23 and 24 miles. Mr. Duncan: You say, they haven't a standard code of rules on both roads? Mr. Galleher: No, sir, I didn't say so. Mr. Duncan: They have a standard code of rules on both roads ? Mr. Galleher: They have, but they differ. Mr. Duncan: Then they haven't a standard code of rules,, have theyj? Mr. Galleher: I don't know as I am authority to say that there is a standard code in the United States. Mr. Duncan: Do you know what are known as the American Eailway Association Standard Code of Rules, under which trains are operated? Mr. Galleher : I have heard of it, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Have they the A. E. A. Standard Code of Rules on both roads? Mr. Galleher: The rules differ. 203 Mr. Duncan: In what respect do they differ? Mr. Galleher: In a number of different rules. Mr. Duncan: All right, point them out. Mr. Galleher: I have a copy of the Boston & Maine, and also a copy of the Central Vermont. Mr. Duncan: Point out now, to this Board, the differences that occur to you. Have you the rules with you! Mr. Galleher: What? Mr. Duncan: Have you the rules with you? Mr. Galleher: Yes. The Boston & Maine, Mr. Stone has put it in as an exhibit, and I have "the Central Vermont. Mr. Duncan: I want you to point out the rules on the Bos- ton & Maine that differ from the rules on the Central Vermont, giving us the numbers of the rules that differ? Mr. Galleher: I can't tell you about them. Mr. Duncan: Can you find them in the book? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Will you please do so ? Mr. Galleher : It will take time to do it. Mr. Duncan: I don't know so much about these rules, you know. I want to know the numbers, so I can look at them. I think the Board would like to know. Mr. Galleher : If they want me to take the time to do this, I can do it, or I can tell you of certain rules that differ. Mr. Duncan ; Tell me one, now. Possibly that would be an easy way to get at that. Mr. Galleher : Well, take for instance, the rules with ref- erence to the taking effect of a new time table, the rules differ. Those two rules differ. The rules differ in the Central Ver- mont and the Boston & Maine. Mr. Duncan: As to the date when the time table takes ef: feet? Mr. Galleher: No, sir, as to the requirements in connection with how trains will be handled that may be on the road at the time of taking effect of the time table. Mr. Duncan: What is the difference? Mr. Galleher : Well, sir, on the Boston & Maine, if, say, for instance, a time table was to take effect at 12 :01, midnight to night, and there was a train the same as myself, which I run .204 in the night, and run past midnight, and I was afraid of the same number on the new time table that I was on the old time table, I continue just the same as though there had been no new time table. Mr. Duncan: What is the rule on the Central Vermont? Mr. Galleher: On the Central Vermont, if there is a train that leaves the initial station within 12 hours after the taking effect of a new time table, the train becomes the same as out- lawed or canceled, regardless of the number. Mr. Duncan: Now, that "is one difference, is it? Mr. Galleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : What is another difference that occurs to you ? Mr. Galleher : Well, with reference to the signals, or the whistles, if you come down to the whistles ; if you are running as a first section of a train, carrying signals which represent to the men that do not have the right of road, you are supposed to whistle the signals to denote that you are carrying signals giving another train following the same road. If you were on the Central Vermont, that man must answer it in a different way from what he would on the Boston & Maine. Mr. Duncan: That is the second difference. Now, what is the next difference? Mr. Galleher: Well now, those two are very plain in my mind, and I might go through a whole lot of others. Mr. Duncan: Are these material changes? Mr. Galleher : Yes, I consider that they are very important. Mr. Duncan : In what way I Mr. Galleher : Why, because if you are working under two f-ets of rules, you must know the difference and not make a mis- take and apply the rules of one road to the other. Mr. Duncan : Now, let me have the additional changes. Mr. Galleher : If I had expected that you were to ask me on these differences, of course I would have had a list made up which would have brought out all these points. Mr. Duncan: Can you think of any rules that materially affect your operations, other than the two you have mentioned ? Mr. Galleher : Here is another one which comes to my mind, which is very important. Of course, they do not readily come to my mind. We will say, for instance, that I am running a pas- 205 .&enger train over the Central Vermont, and if it is at a time when the offices are not open— the telegraph offices — a freight train cannot follow me until I have been gone 20 minutes. If it is in the day time, they cannot follow me until I have been gone 90 minutes or until I have passed the station beyond. On the Boston & Maine you can follow in five minutes. Mr. Duncan : Is that all the material changes you can think •of at the present time? Mr. Galleher : That is all that comes to my mind. I probably if I had time enough to dig this out, I would be prepared to give you all the changes. Those are the three important questions with reference to the handling of trains on the road. Mr. Shaw: How long have you been on this particular runt Mr. Galleher: I think it is somewhere between four and . iive years. Mr. Shaw: And your employment on that run has been un- ~? r terrupted and continuous? Mr. Galleher : Yes. Mr. Shaw: So that if we were computing your income, and multiply the $153.75 by twelve, we would get fairly at what had been your actual yearly income, which figures out about $1,845. Mr. Galleher: I don't know how you get so much pay for me. I cannot figure it out that way when pay day c-omes. Mr. Shaw : Mr. Straus has suggested it might be well to put tl ose items on the record, so he would have them as a basis of comparison. Mr. Galleher: I get $30.75 a week. Mr. Stone: How much? Mr. Galleher: $30.75 a week. Mr. Judson: Do you run on Sundays? Mr. Galleher: No, sir. Mr. Stone: That is 26 days a month, and I have figured on 30 days a month. Mr. Galleher : You can multiply $30.75 by four and then by. twelve and add $12,125, and you will get it right. Mr. Shaw: Shall I multiply $30.75 by 52? Mr. Galleher : That will give the year, yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You go over the route every other day? Mr. Galleher : I do, the same as two days in one. 206 Mr. Duncan: That is you lay off every other day? Mr. G-alleher: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And in addition to that you lay off Sunday! Mr. Galleher : Yes. The train that I run does not run Sun- day, only one part of it, and they run it from the other termnal. Mr. Duncan: And that makes your monthly wage approxi- mately what, according to your calculation? Mr. Galleher : I think Mr. Shaw is figuring it out there. Mr. Willard: $128.12, is that itf Mr. Galleher: That is nearly right. Mr. Duncan: How many days* work does that cover, then! Mr. Galleher : I consider it covers two days ' work, what I do. Mr. Duncan : I mean if you lay off every other day and lay off Sundays, how many days in the month would that be ! Mr. Galleher : I figure that I get in six days a week, that is what I call it. If I did not double the road, it would be the same as six days a week. Mr. Duncan: But you do the two days' work in one day, is your claim? Mr. Galleher? Yes. Mr. Duncan: And then lay off every other day, on that basis? Mr. Galleher: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And also lay off on Sunday? Mr. Galleher: Yes. I am fortunate in having a run that does not run on Sunday. Mr. Shaw: That makes $1,599 annually? Mr. Stone : How often do you have to catch a signal on that run ? Have you ever made any calculation ? Mr. Galleher : Well, Mr. Stone, the signals vary. When we get into the double track section, we make a signal about to the mile, but on the single track they are not so thick ; they figure to have a signal once a mile just the same on the single track, but of course every other signal is for the opposite direction. Mr. Stone : Mr. Duncan brought out the fact that you made two days in one. Are you not really a day and a night making the trip? Mr. Galleher: I register on duty at ten o'clock in the fore- noon, and register off duty anywhere from 1 :15 to 1 :45. 207 Mr. Stone: The next mornng? Mr. Gralleher: Yes. Mr. Eidlitz : You work 13 hours that day. Mr. G-alleher: Let me explain. I am off duty in Spring- field, from between 3 :30 and 4 o 'clock until 6 :30, so you see I am off duty there about 2y 2 hours, or a little more ; that is, I am relieved from responsibility during that time! Mr. Stone : That is all I care to ask. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: We have Charles Moore, who is in the fast passenger service, on the New Haven. Charles Gr. Moore was called as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: Give your name, age, occupation, where em- ployed, and on what division? Mr. Moore : Charles Gr. Moore, 50 years old, employed on the Shore Line Division of the New York, New Haven & Hart- ford. Mr. Stone: What kind of service, Mr. Moore? Mr. Moore : Express train service. Mr. Stone : What do you mean by express train service ? No passengers and all express, is it! Mr. Moore : Oh, no ; it is passenger train, express passenger Where are you located, what division? : Shore Line Division. . Eunning out of where ? : Springfield to Stamford. : Shore Line Division. Mr. Judson: From where? Mr. Moore: Springfield to Stamford. Mr. Stone: Springfield to Stamford? Mr. Judson: That is not the Shore Line Division, is it? Mr. Moore: Yes, it is now. Mr. Judson: I thought Springfield was on the New London Division. train. " Mr. Stone : Mr. Moore Mir. Stone : Mr. Moore Mr. Moore 208 Mr. Moore : They have re-divisioned it, consolidated it with the Shore Line Division. Mr. Stone : What is the length of your run? Mr. Moore : 104 miles out. Mr. Moore: And at what time do you report, or are you called? Mr. Moore : We report for duty. Mr. Stone: What time do you report? Mr. Moore : About half -past ten in the morning. Mr. Stone: What time are you due to leave? Mr. Moore: 11:50. Mr. Stone: What is expected of you, ;;fter you register on duty? Mr Moore: I don't very often register on duty. I go to the roundhouse and inspect the work book, and see what work has been reported on the engine, on the previous trip. Mr. Stone: Then, what? Mr. Moore: I go and look the engine over and see if it has been done, go to the cupboard and get my clothes, come back, screw down the grease cups, and, in going around her, I look her over again. Mr. Stone : Are your engines inspected by an inspector ? Mr. Moore: Underneath. Mr. Stone : Who puts the supplies on your engine ? Mr. Moore: I do, or I can call for them. Mr. Stone: You are held responsible, though, for the con- dition of the engine in starting? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And you must know that she is right? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you get her out of the house yourself? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then, what? Mr. Moore: Pull down and get water, then back up on a relay track ready to back on to the B. & A. Eoad. to get the train at the depot. Mr. Stone : After the train comes, then what do you do ? Mr. Moore: Back on to the train, compare watches with the conductor, get orders if there are any, test the air, and, in the winter, the steam heat, and get signal to go. 209 Mr. Stone: 104 mile division. Mr. Moore : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What is your time? Mr. Moore: Well, we do not go right through with that •one train. We come to New Haven and leave that train there, and then wait about two hours and a half and then take an- other train on to Stamford. Mr. Stone: What time do you arrive in Stamford? Mr. Moore: I am due at Stamford at 4:48; I am due in New Haven on the southbound trip at 1:25. Mr. Judson : Stamford is the end of the run of the steam lo- comotive, is it not? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir; as far as we go. The electrics take is from there in. Mr. Stone: What do you do after your arrival at Stam- ford? Mr. Moore: Why, we put the engine on to the pit, look around her and see if there is anything gone or warm on the outside; if its bearings are warm we so report them to the foreman and have them fixed up for the return trip. Mr. Stone: How many signals on your division? Mr. M'oore : Are you counting the distance signals in with these? Mr. Stone: I am counting every signal that you have to know the location of. Mr. Moore: 144 from Springfield to Stamford; that is, counting in the jack signal movement around the yard at Spring- field and New Haven. Mr. Stone : Well, the jack signals — you can go through one of them and get off just as well as any other kind of a signal, can you not? Mr. Moore: I think so. Mr. Stone : That has been my experience. The worst kind there was to locate. By a jack signal, you mean, a low signal, a dwarf signal? Mr. Moore : I mean a low diverging route signal that, when you get it, would take you across the yard. Mr. Stone: What they call a pot signal, or dwarf signal? Mr. Moore : Pot signals. ^ Mr. Stone : They call them jack signals on the New Haven? 210 They are not upon a high mast, but they are down low ; a small- signal — the meanest signal in the world to see. Mr. Stone: After your arrival at Stamford, how long does it take you to get through? Mr. Moore : Well, it is a very short swing there in a way. We are due there at 4:48 and due to leave at 6:26. We have some time there; not very long; we get our supplies of oil and so forth on the return trip. Mr. Stone : You leave there at what time ! Mr. Moore : 6 :26. Mr. Stone : What time are you due back to Springfield! Mr. Moore : I come to New Haven on that train. That is the short line train between New York and Boston via New Lon- don. I leave that train there. I am due in New Haven at 7 :16 and leave at 8 :10 to go up the Hartford Division of the Shore Line Division. Mr. Stone: What time do you arrive! Mr. Moore : I am due in Springfield at 9 :50 P. M. Mr. Stone: And you make that trip every day! Mr. Moore: No, sir; I make that four days a week. Mr. Stone : Four days a week! Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: The train runs daily, does it! Mr. Moore: No; the southbound train does not run daily., They have a train that runs in the place of it, but it doesn't come through from Boston. Mr. Stone : What do you get for that run ? Mr. Moore : $8.55 for the round trip. Mr. Stone : You make four round trips a week ! Mr. Moore : Yes, sir ; the pay is $34.10, for the week. Mr. Stone: $136.40, if I figure correctly, for a month — $34.10 per week. Mr. Judson : Do you work Sundays I Mr. Moore : No, sir. Mr. Stone : Four days a week. Mr. Moore: I work Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Fridays and Saturdays. Mr. Stone : That is all, Mr. Chairman. 211 Cross-Examination. Mr. Duncan : How much did you say you made a month, on that basis? Mr. Moore : Well, I have not figured it ; the other gentlemen -here have, I believe. Mr. Duncan: 52 times $34.10 would be, for the year! Mr. Moore : For the year, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How long have you had that run? Mr. Moore : Well, we have been on the four day a week run, I should judge, about a year and a half. We did formerly run three days. You see, it made a difference in the train. I for- merly ran between Springfield and New York, and when the elec-, trie locomotive came in they cut us at Stamford, of course, be- cause we couldn't use steam below that, and, at that time, we ran it three days a week on that train, and every other Sunday a round trip to Stamford and back, but afterwards they gave us four days a week, which I think was a matter of a year and a half -age, or maybe more; I wouldn't be dead sure; and we didn't run Sundays. You see every two weeks on the other schedule we would be running — let us see — seven trips where we now run > eight. Mr. Duncan: Did you bid that run in? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Do you remember when you bid it in? Mr. Moore : I think in 1905 ; about seven years ago. Mr. Duncan : You were referring to some jack signals. Mr. Moore : Or, pot signals. Mr. Duncan : What do you mean by that? Mr. Moore : Well, they are a short signal up from the ground about that high (indicating), I should judge, with a short sema- phore arm, I should think about that long (indicating). Mr. Duncan : Was there any taller signals near it ? Mr. Moore : No. Well, you will find them as a usual thing at the foot of a masthead where there is a large semaphore for a main line movement. These short arm signals will be for some di-'erging route. Mr. Duncan: So that you have to approach those signals practically under speed so that you can stop in the event the jack signal is turned against you? 212 Mr. Moore: Well, if the jack signal out on the line would" be turned against us in all probability we would have the high arm signal. If that high arm signal is against us we immedi- ately get under control and then see if the jack signal shows a diverging route. Mr. Duncan: That is what I mean. Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: You have warning at some time that would require you to get your engine under control by the time that you would get in sight of the jack signal? Mr. Moore: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Re-Direct Examination. Mr. Stone: You do not have any such warning though for movements around those yards and around the congested traffic like across the yard! You are governed then entirely by the jack signals, are you not? Mr. Moore: Yes; most all of them, except one or two I have in mind at the present time, are not located near a high arm signal. Ee-Cross Examination. Mr. Duncan: But you are required to go through the yard under control, are you not? Mr. Moore : Oh, yes, certainly. Mr. Duncan: Do you regard these signals as increasing your risk? Mr. Moore: In what way? Mr. Duncan : In any way at all. In other words, you have been telling the Commission of the number of signals that you were compelled to look out for and locate. Do you con- sider that that adds to your risk? Mr. Moore: As far as employment is concerned, yes, if you pass one of them. Mr. Duncan: In what way does it add to your risk? Mr. Moore : If you pass one of them you would be disci- plined for it. Mr. Duncan : You think that is a risk ! 213 Mr. Moore : It is a risk of your employment. Mr. Duncan: Would you prefer that that signal should not be there ; in other words, would you prefer to operate your train through those yards without the signals? Mr. Moore: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Did you say how many signals there were on your run? Mr. Moore : I did, on the south bound movement. Approxi- mately the same returning. Mr. Stone: That is all, Mr. Chairman. I would like to have testify Mr. Packer, of the Pennsylvania Lines, East, one of the men who runs between Jersey City and Washington. Probably you gentlemen ride behind him quite often in making the trip. Melville K. Packer was called as a witness and testified .as follows : Mr. Stone: Give your name, age, and where you ran. Mr. Packer: Age, 50 years; running in what is known as the inter-divisional service between Jersey City and Washing- ton, D. C. Mr. Stone: What is the distance of your run? Mr. Packer: 222 miles. Mr. Stone: What is your time? Mr. Packer: 5 hours and 29 minutes on the southbound trip, and 4 hours and 47 minutes on the northbound trip. Mr. Stone : You pull what is known as the Southern Lim- ited, going south, do you not? Mr. Packer: Going south, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What time do you report or are you called? Mr. Packer: We report. I leave my home at 2 o'clock P. M. The roundhouse is located in the middle of the meadows, about half way between Jersey City and Newark, and we trol- ley to it, making one change on the trolley. We like to arrive at the roundhouse not later than 3 o 'clock. Our time begins at 3.30. We back out with our engine at 4.04, and leave the trans- fer with our train at 4.56. 214 Mr. Stone: What are your duties after registering on 1 ? Mr. Packer: We do not register on our road, at least not on my run. Mr. Stone: Well, after you arrive at the roundhouse. Mr. Packer: We report at the roundhouse, and I am com- pelled to examine five bulletin.boards. I run under five superin- tendents, who post general orders and general notices. If there are any general orders posted, we sign for them in the book, and in addition to this, if it is a New York Division order, we are compelled to get what" is known as a signature card, which is our name and the number of the order that we sign for, and countersigned by the roundhouse foreman and the date; com- pare our time with the standard clock in the office, ascertain what engine we are going to get on our run, and then go in and put on our uniform, and go out to our engine and prepare it for the trip. Mr. Stone : What do you mean by preparing it for the trip ? Mr. Packer: Preparing for the trip means giving the en- gine a very careful inspection, seeing that your headlight is filled, and sand boxes filled, examining the water in your boiler, ex- amining your fire box for leaks, you have also got to know that your tool supply is correct, none of them missing (you are held accountable for them) ; see that the grease cups are filled, and adjust them, adjusting the plungers and tightening up the jam ■nuts on them, examining the tank boxes to see that they are properly oiled, with waste in them, and also examining the boxes around the locomotive to see that they are in proper con- dition. Mr. Stone: Do you have air sanders on your engines? Mr. Packer: Yes, I might say in addition that we also, of course, start our air pump, and after we get the maximum pres- sure make a test of that. Mr. Stone: Do you get the engine out of the house yourself"? Mr. Packer ; Yes, we do under normal conditions, but if we are assigned to a locomotive that requires coal and sand, we no- tify some one in authority, and a hostler is sent there to take it up and coal it or to sand it whatever it may be. Mr. Stone : You have engine, inspectors, do you not ? Mr. Packer: Yes. 215 Mr. Stone: Why do you make a second inspection? Mr. Packer : For my own safety, and to avoid trouble along the road. Mr. Stone: How many signals along your run"? Mr. Packer: About 550 each way, or 1,100, in a' round trip. Mr. Stone: Do you have to know the location of all these signals ? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You work under six different superintendents? Mr. Packer : Five. Mr Stone: How many time cards do you carry? Mr. Packer : Six in book form. Mr. Stone: I filed them yesterday as one of the exhibits. What would be the result in this going over your engine and inspecting it and everything you do before you start, if you over- looked something; take, for example, if you went out with your 'headlight empty, who would be blamed for it? Mr. Packer: I would. Mr. Judson: In that connection, who would be responsible if something developed, some defect in the machinery that could only be reached from underneath the engine 1 Mr. Stone: That is one of the unsettled questions we have never been able to settle yet, on a majority of these roads. I do not know what the rule is on the Pennsylvania. Perhaps Jie can answer. Mr. Packer : If we should find our engine in the roundhouse' — we don't always find the engine in the roundhouse; we have roundhouses and we have what is known as storage yards. The engine we will find either in one place or the other. If she is in a roundhouse and. there is a pit, we are supposed to go under and give her an inspection. If she is in a storage yard we do not do that. There is no man cares to take a chance of going under a locomotive in a storage yard unless he is compelled l<> do it. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Packer: Machinists do it, but the locomotive engineer does not do it. Mr. Stone: What is the danger? ' Mr. Packer: Because he is afraid of other engines striking 216 him, as a number of engines are stored on the same track I have myself personally seen engines moved 20 feet by other en- gines coming in contact with them in storage yards. Mr. Stone : Are there any special instructions in these time cards, special rules? Mr. Packer : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What is the effect of these rules, are they special rules or do they modify the standing rules in the book! Mr. Packer : They are mostly special rules, affecting the ter- ritory to which they apply. Mr. Stone: 550 signals! Mr. Packer : Yes. Mr. Stone : How often then have you got to catch a signal on that fast run! Mr. Packer : When we are in what is known as the automa- tic zone between Jersey City and Wilmington, Del., a distance of about 110 miles, we would observe a signal in every five see- on is up to a minute, running at the normal rate of speed. In what is known as the manual block system from Wilmington to Washington we would observe the signals from half a minute to four minutes apart, and in two instances, due to speed limits over bridges, they are eight minutes apart. Mr. Stone: How many slowdowns do you have on this run! Mr. Packer : I could not tell you, Mr. Stone, without count- ing them up. There are quite a number. We take water seven times, which is a 45 mile an hour limit, and there are other speed limits. Mr. Stone: That is, you scoop water! Mr. Packer : Yes. Mr. Stone : From track tanks ? Mr. Packer: Yes. Mr. Stone : After your arrival at Washington what do you do! Mr. Packer : We arrive into Washington at 10.25. Our train i^ a southern train and goes on south and we are cut loose from it immediately and return to the roundhouse, or rather to the inspection pit, that is a quarter of a mile from the roundhouse ;md about two miles out back from Washington station, backing up; and we leave our engine on the inspection pit. There we 217 make out what is known as a work report. After feeling around our engine and looking her over to see there are no defect's and no hot boxes developed, we make out this report of work that we think is necessary and know of, and then walk through the round- house, where we have what is known as a detention report to make out. It is a blank form to fill out. It is necessary to do it whether you have any detentions or not on your trip. In add- ition to this, while we are on what is known as the P. T. Divi- sion, a distance of about five miles in Philadelphia, if we have a detention there of over two minutes, we must make out a deten- tion report and send it to the road foreman of that division also. Mr. Stone: Are engineers required to do any telephoning on your division? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What kind of business do you do by pnone? Mr. Packer : There are points on the Maryland Division in the manual block system, where they have signals and no operators. These signals are what is known as a stay stop sig- nal; in other words, if you find them red, you must stay there. ' un vl you get an order of some kind to proceed, and the only means we have of getting this order is by going to the telephone booih and telephoning for it. There are also points where we would enter a long siding, put in there by the operator, and after having an understanding with him, we would proceed to the end of the siding, but before we could pull out we would have to get this telephone order by going to the telephone booth. Mr. Stone: In taking orders by telephone what are your instructions, how do you proceed to do it? Mr. Packer : We first tell who we are and where we are and what we want. The operator then telephones the order to us and after he has given us the order we repeat it back to him over the telephone and then complete it. Mr. Stone: You are held responsible for the correctness of this order over the phone? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you think this adds any additional respon- sibility to you? Mr. Packer: I do. We are doing the work formerly done by the operator. 218 Mr. Stone : How long have you been required to take these telephone orders? Mr. Packer: I found that condition when I started to run on the Maryland Division. I don't know how long it has been that way. Mr. Stone: When you .first started to run a locomotive for the company, you did not find that condition, did you? Mr. Packer: No, sir. Mr. Judson: I don't understand you, Mr. Stone. Do you mean he is responsible for the correctness of the order or for the correctness of the report of the order by the operator? Mr. Stone: There is no operator there. Mr. Packer: He is his own operator and takes his order over the telephone. Mr. Judson: But is he responsible for the correctness of the order that is given him. You do not mean that? Mr. Stone: Who writes the order out? Mr. Packer: Either the conductor or myself. Mr. Stone : The point I wanted to bring out, Mr. Chairamn, was this, that this man is requested to perform the service commonly done by a telegraph operator. Instead of a tele- graph operator receiving the order and writing it out in mani- fold copy, the crew at these blocks take it themselves and write it out and is held responsible for the correctness of the order over the 'phone. Mr. Judson: The transmission of it, I understand. Mr. Stone : Leaving Washington, what time do you report ? Mr. Packer: After our arrival in Washington, we go to the rest room, which is located in the same building, and we are called at 5.30 in the morning to go to the roundhouse and in- spect our engine again. Mr. Stone: Do you have the same engine back always? Mr. Packer: As a rule; not always, but as a rule we do. I screw down my grease cup plungers, and tighten up the lock nuts, leave the engine in the roundhouse, and go after my breakfast, about a ten minutes' walk, and when I return from that I find the engine has been placed outdoors by the hostler. I then do my oiling and we leave the storage track at 7.30, and leave the depot at 8.00 o'clock on the return trip. 219 Mr. Stone : What time do you arrive in Jersey City or Man- hattan Junction? ' Mr. Packer: It is known as Manhattan Transfer,— at 12.47. Mr. Stone: 4 hours and 47 minutes? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What is the distance? Air. Packer: 222 miles. I might add, ahout ten minutes of this is what is known as dead time, at Baltimore and Phila- delphia. Mr. Judson: That is stoppage? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : After your arrival at Manhattan Transfer, what do you do? Mr. Packer: We cut loose with our train, and take our ■engine to the inspection pit on the meadows, and then walk to the roundhouse, a distance of about 1,700 feet, and make out •our reports. Mr. Stone: From the time of your arrival at Manhattan Transfer, until you are through with your duties at the round- house, how long does it take? Mr. Packer: About thirty minutes. Mr. Stone: Can you do all that in thirty minutes? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: It is pretty good walking. I think that is all I care to ask, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Shaw: What wages do you receive? Mr. Packer : $18.54 a round trip. Mr. Shaw: How long have you been on that run? Mr. Packer: 18 months. Mr. Shaw : And your trips have been continuous and regu- lar so that it has gone steadily at that rate? Mr. Packer: We make a trip every third day. Mr. Stone: Ten trips a month? Mr. Eidlitz: $185.40 a month. Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Shaw: How does that figure out per year? Mir. Judson: What rate is that per mile? Mr. Packer : About 4.15. Mr. Eidlitz: $2,224.80. The Chairman: A year? 22Q Mr. Eidlitz : A year. The Chairman: How much is that a mile? Mr. Judson : About 4.15 a mile. Mr. Duncan: What did you make that per year, Mr. Shaw! Mr. Shaw: $2,224.80. The Chairman: Any questions, Mr. Duncan! Cross-Examination. Mr. Duncan : And that is what you earn, namely $2,224.80, . or approximately that, a year! Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. ( Mr. Duncan : And for that you work ten trips, as you might say, a month? Mjr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Making a trip every day? Mr. Packer: Down one day and back the next; we go out; every third day from our home, and come back the following day to our home. Mr. Duncan: Within a day, however. You really work then, 20 days a month? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir; part of 20 days. Mr. Duncan: Part of each of 20 days? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How many hours in each of those working days do you work? Mr. Packer : About eight. Mr. Duncan: So that it is approximately 16 hours work during three days? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir; 24 hours away from home. Mr. Duncan: Who puts the supplies on your engine now? Mr. Packer: You mean the oil and lubricant, and such things as that? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Packer: The fireman. Mr. Duncan: Who puts your tools on nowadays? Mr. Packer: The tool inspectors, unless we find some miss- ing, and then we go draw them ourselves. Mr. Duncan : But you are not supposed to put them on ? Mr. Packer: We are supposed to draw them if they are missing, or go notify someone. 221 Mr. Duncan: To get them for you? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mjr. Duncan : And there is an inspector who inspects your •engine before you take it out, is there not! Mr. Packer: The engines are inspected at what is known as the inspection pit where we leave them; they also have an -additional inspector in the roundhouse, or in the storage yard. Mr. Duncan: So that the inspection you make is additional to the inspection that has been provided for by the company? Mr. Packer : Yes, sir, but we have been told from time to time that this inspection does not relieve us of the responsi- bility; therefore, we make our own inspections. Mr. Duncan : But you do not get under the train and make the inspection, do you? Mr. Packer : Not in the storage yard, no sir. Mr. Duncan: Who formerly inspected the engines before the company hired the inspectors? Mr. Packer : We have had engine inspectors as far back as I can recollect. Mr. Duncan: It has always been the custom for an inspec- tor for the company to inspect them before the engineer in- spects them? Mr. Packer: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Does the conductor get any train orders at the points you mentioned, over the telephone? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Both of you are charged with the duty of getting the orders? , Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How often has that occurred during the past year? Mr. Packer: It has never occurred with me, sir. The lia- bility of it is all the time. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Packer, do you lay off? Mr. Packer: Only when I am on committee work. Mr. Morrissey : What are your expenses away from home? Mr. Packer: About 50 cents a trip. Mr. Judson: You pay that yourself? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. 222 Mr. Morrissey : Does the company furnish you with a sleep- ing place in Washington? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: At their cost? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. The company maintains a restaur- ant at most all points, all large terminals. Mr. Judson: Well, do you pay for your own meals? Mr. Packer: Pay for my own meals, yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: You have a good company. Mr. Judson : I was over your division lately, and on the Pennsylvania train going west, the locomotive broke down just going into Philadelphia, three, or four miles out, and delayed the train two hours; the locomotive broke down. Now, as- suming that the breakdown was owing to some defect that was only discoverable from an inspection underneath of the ma- chinery, would the engineer have any responsibility for that? Mr. Packer: I think not, after going that distance. Mr. Judson: Why did you say, "that distance"? Mr. Packer : Because it would show that she was in pretty good shape when she left or she would not have gone some 80 odd miles before she broke down; but had that occurred shortly after she left, then perhaps they would have started to make an inquiry. Mr. Judson: How could an engineer find out anything about it, you say you sometimes take the engine from the yard, you have no opportunity to go underneath. Mr. Packer : Well, you can see most of the machinery with- out going underneath. Mr. Judson: That is all. Mr. Duncan: That is all, Mr. Packer. Mr. Stone : I have one more witness of thede fast passenger train engineers, Mr. Chairman. You have h^ard a good deal of talk about the Baltimore & Ohio always bjjing late, but we have one of their star performers who is always on time. Mr. Hughes of the Mountain Division of the Baltimore & Ohio. 223 F. J. Hughes was called as a witness and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone: Give your name, age, division you are on, and 1 how long you have been in the service? Mr. Hughes: 57 years old; I have been in the service since 1870, engineer since 1874. Mr. Stone: How many years have you been in the pas- senger service? Mr. Hughes: "Well, practically 38 years, almost all the time. Mr. Stone: Have you been in that Mountain Division all the time? Mr. Hughes : Well, pretty near all the time. I ran on the "West End for quite a while, but I have been on that division for I suppose 20 years or more. Mr. Stone: Between where? Mr. Hughes: Between Pittsburgh and Cumberland, a dis- tance of 150 miles. Mr. Stone : Then you have run everything from the very small passenger engine, in the early days, up to the heaviest machine they have to-day? Mr. Hughes: Yes, sir, I have. The engine I ran 30 years ago from Pittsburgh to Uniontown weighed 28 tons, and the one I am now running weighs 148 tons. Mr. Stone : What time do you report for duty, or are you called? Mr. Hughes: I am called at five o'clock in the morning, called for 6.50, and I report at 6.00 o'clock generally, go down in the roundhouse office and examine three general order books, sign for any of the new ones that are pasted in the book, and register, get the time card from the caller's office, and go to my engine, see that the lubricators are both full — we have two lubricators on our engines, one for oiling the flanges on the drive wheel tire. We have to look after both of those ; put my compound and pumps on and see that I have a pressure of from 90 to 110 pounds. See that the water tank is filled with suffi- cient water, examine the fireboxes, examine the grease cups to see if they are filled properly, and look at and make an in- spection of the engine on the outside; all I can see from the 224 outside, and then, when the engine is taken out of the house, it is generally taken down by the hostler, I have to see that the tank is filled with water and a sufficient amount of coal is on the engine to make the trip. Then if there is not a sufficient amount, we have to run the engine up to the upper end of the yard,, and back down to the coal chute and have to see that sufficient is put on. Mr. Stone : How much coal and water does your engine hold I Mr. Hughes: 17 tons of coal and 9,500 gallons of water. Then we have to run to Pittsburgh, a distance of 5 miles, and we get in there and wait until the train comes in from the "West. When the train comes in we have to back down and couple on, and after our hose is connected we apply the brakes for a test. Then we turn on the steam — use the steam all the time, we have to supply steam for a turbine that is run to make electricity to light the train. Have to wait until the conductor comes up and he hands up any orders or messages which it may be necessary for us to have before going. Com- pare our time, and when the time is up and we get a signal, we go. On our line for the first 57 miles, from Pittsburgh to Connellsville, our signals are automatic, upper quartered. Mr. Stone: You had better explain that, what an upper quartered signal is, so they will understand. Mr. Hughes: Well, the upper quartered signal is where the blade stands straight up, when the track is clear, perpen- dicular, instead of being down. I should judge they would average one every mile on these 57 miles. On the eastern di- vision, the Connellsville Division, from Connellsville to Cum- berland, a distance of 92 miles, we are operating under the manual system yet. They are beginning to install some of the automatic signals but have not yet got them in operation there. We are required to sound a whistle approaching mail trains, so that the postal clerks will know that we are approach- ing, and we have to sound a whistle for every road crossing. We have five gauges in our engine that I have to keep in or- der. One is the speed record gauge and we have to be very careful to keep that within the limits; must not exceed the speed limit. Mr. Stone: What is the speed limit? 225 Mr. Hughes: 50 miles an hour on our line We are run- ning on the mountain. If we go up to 53 or 54, we receive a letter to explain why, so it takes quite a good deal of our time. Mr. Stone : Suppose you didn 't hold up to the speed* what then! Mr. Hughes : Then we are censured for not having reached the limit, so if we had done that we might have gone in on time. When we arrive at the Cumberland the engine is cut loose from the train and we run a mile further east to the shop, and place the engine on what is called the ash track there, and give it a little looking over, on the outside again. We do not look at it underneath at all; we are not required to do that. The en- gine is then taken care of by the hostler, the fire is cleaned, and coal put on if necessary, and sand put in the box, and the ei> gine is turned ready for the return trip. We lay over there from 12 :40 until 5 :07. If the train is on time it leaves there at 5:07. At 4:30 we leave the roundhouse again with the engine, bring it back again to Cumberland, to the depot, and wait until No. 5 arrives it is coupled on, and then there are these tests made in the same manner as described before, turning on the steam and so on and then we are ready for the trip up the moun- tain, and we arrive at Pittsburgh. When we arrive at Pittsburgh, there is more or less conges- tion there at that terminal on account of the increased volume 0'' traffic and great number of trains there within the last few years compared to what there was previous to that, and the fa- cilities for handling them not having been increased very much. We are delayed always 40 minutes and sometimes an hour get- ting our engine out to the shop track at Grlenwood, where we have to deliver it. When we arrive there we have to inspect it again, or I do, on the outside, as before described, looking at nothing underneath, only what I might be able to see from the outside. Then I have to go to the shop and report the neces- sary repairs on the engine. That generally takes, from the time I arrive at the shop until I go away, an hour and ten to fifteen minutes, as a rule. Mr. Butterfield : You did not tell us what time you arrived ai the station. Mr. Hughes : 9 :30 at Pittsburgh. I generally get released at the shop at about 10 :35, and sometimes 10 :45. 226 Mr. Stone: What is the distance"? Mr. Hughes : 150 miles. We make 156 miles each way for the reason that we run the engine the five miles in the morning from Grlenwood into Pittsburgh, and bring it back out in the evening, and one mile each way at Cumberland, making 156 miles, 312 miles the round trip. Mr. Stone: What is your running time each way? Mr. Hughes : On the trip east four hours and thirty min- utes and coming west four hours and eighteen minutes, six stops- gcing east and five going west. Mr. Stone : This is a mountain division with heavy grades. Mr. Hughes: Very heavy grades. Mr. Stone: Crooked track! Mr. Hughes : Very crooked indeed, and a very heavy train, . nine and ten heavy steel cars. Mr. Stone: And a few tunnels along there? Mr. Hughes : Four or five tunnels, five tunnels. Mr. Stone : You run through the famous Sand Patch Tunnel ? Mr. Hughes : Yes, sir, we run through the Sand Patch Tun- nel seven-eighths of a mile. Mr. Stone: It is not in operation any more; I guess it has fall on in from the last reports. Does your right of track change as to direction on your run? Mr. Hughes : We are all double track. Mr. Stone: It does not change? Mr. Hughes : Eastbound trains have the right of track ; that is all. If we have to use the track in a contrary direction for any reason or from any cause, we get an order, the eastbound train has the right of track. Mr. Stone : How many signals did you say there were over your division, do you know the number? Mr. Hughes : I do not know the number on the eastern dis- trict, Mr. Stone, for the reason that they are changing now and then, they are putting up new ones here and there, and we hiive not taken much account of it. We know where they all are. There are 57 on the west end ; they are all automatic, but on the east end they are manual yet. They are getting ready to install the other signals as fast as they can. Mr. Stone : The engine you run is one of the new super- beaters? 227 \ Mr. Hughes : One of the largest engines there is. Mr. Stone : The heaviest passenger power the Baltomore & Ohio has? Mr. Hughes : I guess the heaviest there is anywhere. Mr. Stone: What size engine is she, do you know? Mr. Hughes : Cylinder, 24 x 30. Mr. Stone : I thought they were 32 by the blueprint. Mr. Hughes : Not the passenger engines, I believe ; they are 30, I think. I am not absolutely certain about that, but I am told they are 30. I never measured them myself. Mr. Stone: What is your steam pressure? Mr. Hughes: 205 pounds. Mr. Stone: Superheated? Mr. Hughes: Superheated, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I think that is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Eidlitz : Do you want to know what the compensation is, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone: What compensation do you receive for the trip? Mr. Hughes? $13.26 for 312 miles. Mr. Stone : That is at what rate ? Mr. Hughes: That is at 4.6 cents per mile. Mr. Stone : No, 4.25 cents. Mr. Duncan: How many trips do you make a month? Mr. Hughes : 15 trips. Mr Stone : Pardon me, for the record I want to get it right. I think that rate is wrong. Mr. Hughes : 4.4, I think. Mr. Stone : $4.25 is the highest rate I know of for 100 miles. Mr. Hughes: Yes, that is right. Mr. Stone : How many round trips do you make a month? Mr. Hughes: 15. Mr. Stone: At $13.26 a round trip? Mr. Hughes Yes, sir, every round trip. The Chairman: How much a month? Mr. Judson: $198.90, I make it. Mr. Hughes : Are you speaking to me ? The Chairman: Yes, how much pay a month do you re- ceive? Mr. Hughes: I draw, if I make full time, about $196. Mr. Shaw : You usually make full time 1 228 Mr. Hughes: How is that? Mr. Shaw: You have usually made full time. Mr. Hughes: Yes, I can make full time if I am able and" wish to. Mr. Duncan : How long have you had this run, Mr. Hughes ?' Mr. Hughes: I think I have been on that run about 12 years, 10 or 12; I don't know the exact time, but it is over 10 years. Mr. Duncan: You run out of Ptttsburgh? Mr. Hughes: I run out of Pittsburgh, yes, sir. Air. Duncan: Making Pittsburgh your home? Mr. Hughes : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: You have had this same run for 12 years? Mr. Hughes : About that, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: What run did you have before that? Mr. Hughes : I had a run running into Cumberland, a local train. Mr. Duncan: Which ran from Pittsburgh to Cumberland? Mr. Hughes : The same distance. Mr. Duncan : The same distance ? Mr. Hughes : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : And you lived in Pittsburgh during that period or at Cumberland? Mr. Hughes : I lived at Pittsburgh. Mr. Duncan: So you lived at Pittsburgh all the time? Mr. Hughes: I have lived in Pittsburgh all the time, ever since I have been employed there. Mr. Duncan: Your trips have been so arranged that you could live at Pittsburgh? Mr. Hughes : Yes, sir ; as a rule I have been at home at night,, or every other night sometimes ; part of the time I laid over at Cumberland. When I made this combination trip, I went over one day and back to-morrow. We did not make the round trip in one day as we are doing now. Mr. Duncan: Why didn't you make the round trip on each day? Mr. Hughes: They had an engine on each side of the run, two men on the run, small engines at that time, and did not double the roads. 229 Mr. Duncan: But for the last 12 years you have been run- ning out of Pittsburgh, making a trip out and back in one day? Mr. Hughes : I have been making that round trip, two days in one, ever since I have been on the run I am now on, for ,-about 11 years, I think, as near as I can remember. Mr. Duncan: And how long have you used the sized en- .gine you use now on that run? Mr. Hughes : The one I am now running was assigned to us last October, some time in October. Mr. Duncan: And what kind of an engine did you run be- fore that? Mr. Hughes: One of identical dimensions, except that it was not a superheated locomotive. They did not use super- heated steam. Mr. Duncan: How long had you used that engine, or an '■engine of that type! Mr. Hughes : We had not had that one a very long time, not very long. It came to us as a new machine just a short time before, it seems to me five or six months or something like that. Mr. Duncan : And what type of engine had you used before that then? Mr. Hughes: Well, we had what they call the Pacific type, not so heavy. Mr. Duncan: About the same size? Mr. Hughes : And not such a large engine, a different nia- 'diine. It had the eccentrics, and this has the outside valve gear, and different in several ways. Mr. Duncan : Which would you prefer, the engine you now have or the Pacific type engine? Mr. Hughes: Well, so far as power is concerned, the one we have now is the best engine, but I prefer the one I had be- fore I got this one, for my own sake. Mr. Duncan: What is that? Mr. Hughes: The one I had before I got the present one I would rather have for my own sake, but the one I have is the best engine for power. It hauls this train better than any •engine we have ever had. Mr. Duncan : Is it any harder to operate an engine equipped with super-heater than one without? Mr. Hughes: I consider it requires a good deal more at- tention. 230 Mr. Duncan: Does it require more physical labor? Mr. Hughes; Not physical labor. You have to keep your ■eye on the machinery and see they are getting properly oiled. If they are not properly oiled, those engines, they cut the valve casing and destroy the machine ; that can happen in only a few miles. The steam that is used in these steam chests and cyl- inders enters there at about 700 degrees, and the heat from the friction of the engine running at this 700 degrees causes them to heat very rapidly. If you don't get oil in there. "We have to watch them. If the lubricator quits work a little bit we must get oil in some way or another. So it gives some trouble that way. Mr. Duncan : When you were running the engine say 5 or 6 or 8 or 10 years ago, what were the duties you had to perform -then that you do not have to perform now? Mr. Hughes: Ten years ago? Mr. Duncan: 15 years ago, put it. Mr. Hughes: Well, we have a good many more duties to perform now that we did not have 15 or 20 years ago. For instance, we didn't have anything at all that long ago, but the locomotive; we didn't have any dine of pipe valves and so forth to look after and take care of, we had no air pump, we had no water glass, had no lubricator, and practically no signals ■out on the line. Mr. Duncan : You had to get around and take care of your own engine in those days, did you not? Mr. Hughes: No; not at that time. Mr. Duncan: Did you not have to take care of your own -engine 15 years ago? Mr. Hughes: No; not as late as that, and a good deaf longer than 25 years ago — 35 years ago we did have a little work to do ; we had to pack our piston and valve stems, but now we don't have to do that. Mr. Duncan: How long has it been since you filled the grease cups of your engine? M!r. Hughes : Up to a very short time ago. Mr. Duncan: You do not fill them now, do you? Mr. Hughes: No; we don't fill them now. Mr. Duncan: How long has it been since you adjusted the wedges on your engine? 231 Mr. Hughes: Well, now I adjust them yet sometimes. Mr. Duncan: Sometimes? i Mr. Hughes : Yes. They will do that for us. For the last year, if we report them. Mr. Duncan: The company has provided means for adjust- ing wedges if you report them? Mr. Hughes : They do that work for us,, and did it then if we reported them. Mr. Duncan: But part of that time you had to do it? Mr. Hughes: They would do it then if we reported it. M(r. Duncan: Was not that one of your duties then? Mr. Hughes: There was not a man designated for that work. Mr. Duncan: There is no man designated for that work now, is there? Mr. Hughes: I think there is. I don't know. The inspector does that for me sometimes but I don't know how it works with others. Mr. Duncan: Who packs the leaky joints now? Mr. Hughes: They pack the joints. Mr. Duncan: Howj? Mr. Hughes : They attend to that at the shops. Mr. Duncan: Would you prefer the old process of lubricat- ing valves to the present practice? Mr. Hughes: By hand? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Hughes: I preferred it. Mr. Duncan: You did? Mr. Hughes: I did. Mr. Duncan: Do you want to abolish the water glass? Mr. Hughes: No, that is a very good thing, but not re- liable; not absolutely reliable; we have to watch it. Mr. Duncan: What do you have to do with the water glass? Mr. Hughes: Blow it out occasionally; see that it is clean and in operation. Mr. Duncan: And look at it occasionally? Mr. Hughes: And look at it occasionally. Mr. Duncan: Do you want to abolish the automatic signals? Mr. Hughes: Oh, no. Mr. Duncan: Do you think they add to the risk of opera- tion! Mr. Hughes: The automatic signals? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Hughes: Oh, no, oh, no, they don't add, but they do- add to my duties looking after them. I have to keep my eye on them all the time to see they are operating right for me. Mr. Duncan : What would you do if you were not looking at the automatic signals when you were running? Mr. Hughes : What would I do ? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Hughes : I would be looking at whatever I had to look at, probably along the track or around the engine or sun-e- wheres, but now I have to watch the signals. Mr. Duncan : And you would be looking ahead whether there were signals there or not)? Mr. Hughes: Not just in that direction. I have to look- everywhere now, both inside and out. Mr. Duncan : If you had not your automatic signals, under what kind of orders would you be running? Mr. Hughes: If we hadn't the automatic signals we would not make as good time as we do. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Hughes: Because we wouldn't feel as if we had the track. We know when we have the automatic signals — if they show us a free track we feel that the track is clear that far,, from one block to another. Mr. Duncan: So to that extent you think that is an ad- vantage? Mr. Hughes: An advantage? Mr. Duncan: That is, your automatic signals are an ad- vantage o nthat account? Mr. Hughes: Surely they are an advantage; certainly they are. Mr. Duncan: That is all. The Chairman : It is now half past four and I think we have done a good day's work. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, I want to say that this day's work wouldn't satisfy some of these fellows for a freight man; it might be all right for these high speed men. 233 Mr. Judson: How many witnesses have you? Mr. Stone: I think, I have about 12 more. These are all "the high speed men. I am going to put some of the tonnage men on now to tell how they take the tonnage trains over the ■hills. The Chairman: We will adjourn until to-morrow morning at half past ten. (Whereupon, at 4.30 P. M. an adjournment was taken to July 18, 1912, at 10.30 o'clock A. M.) 234 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 18th, 1912. 10 :30 A. M. The Chairman: Gentlemen, the session is now open. I be- lieve Mr. Stone has the floor. , Mr. Stone: I should like to take up where we left off yes- terday and put some more witnesses on the stand, beginning with Mr. F. L. Carr, of the Boston & Maine. You have heard about the short hours of these men in fast passenger service. I want to put a man on now who puts in longer hours on slow service or suburban work. F. L. Carr was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : Give your name, where you work, how long, and your age? Mr. Carr: Southern Division of the Boston & Maine, age 41. Mr. Stone : How long have you been in the service ? Mr. Carr : I have been an engineer 20 years, the 1st day of next December. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the passenger ser- vice? Mr. Carr: About three years steadily; but off and on a great deal of the time. Mr. Stone: Describe what time you report and what your duties are. Mr. Carr: I run a train that runs out of Lowell, that is Lowell for my terminal. I run a train which is a local pas- senger train starting out of Lowell in the morning. I leave Lowell at 6:40. I report at the engine house for work at 5:40 and look over the bulletin board, register, and I have the same engine help usually that I have in, and see that the work is done that has been reported if any ; get the engine in readiness, much the same as the rest of the men have described; put the engine on the table and back across and get a tank of water; and when the tower lets me down into the trainshed. back on to the train, pump up the brakes, pump up the air and try the brakes, 235 compare the time with the conductor, and leave at 6:40 for Boston. Mr. Stone: What is the length of the run? Mr. Carr : 26 miles, or 26 and a fraction. Part of this run is over double line. There are two pieces of double line and one piece of single line between Lowell and Boston. This train has an hour and 13 minutes to make the run, and we have 18 or 19 stops usually; some of them are flag stops, but we invariably get these stops. We have quite a lot of signals to contend with on the double line, automatic block signals, and we arrive af Boston in the terminal at 7:53. Here, after our train has dis- charged its passengers and whatever baggage or express there might be, we cannot back out, as the train that we bring in is used as a local train to return to Lowell again. We have to lay in here until 8:22. After the train leaves for Lowell, we back out and go to the coal shed and inspect the engine and leave the engine in charge of the hostler; go to the engine house and report the work, and it is usually nine o'clock or after by this time. The next train that I go out on leaves at 11:55 and in order to get around you have to get there at the engine house and be ready to get on to your engine by 10:55, as a good many times they want you to back out of the engine house on account of so many engines going in and out, before you naturally would, which would be 30 minutes. We get the engine ready for this trip, which is 41 miles, much the same as in the morning. We go out into the yard and back on to our cars and another draft which we push into the trainshed ; pump up the air and try the brakes, and back into the trainshed. Here we leave the four cars which are the other draft, pull away from those we have left, and again test the air on the two that we have, which is done by the trainmen. We have two cars on this trip as a rule, sometimes more. This trip, a part of the way, is over the same route that we came in, about three or four miles of it; then we go onto single line for about thirty -five miles, thirty or thirty-five. Mr. Stone: To where? Mr. Carr : To East Switch, on what used to be the Massa- chusetts Central, so-called. Here we go onto the W. N. & P. Divi- sion of the Boston & Maine, which is double line from there to Lancaster. 236 We leave Boston at 11 :55 and arrive at Lancaster at 1 :25. Here we cross the road, fly the train past us onto a spur, and we leave there again an hour and two minutes afterward. If there is anything like a hot box on the engine, or any- thing that has to be done on the engine, there is no one at this point to do it, and, as a consequence, many times it takes quite a little of that time to do the work ourselves, which gives us practically but a few minutes to ourselves at this point. At 1 :27 we leave and go back over part of this route, and by the point where I first spoke of, Clinton Junction. Mr. Butterfield: 2:27, you mean, do you not? Mr. Carr: 2:27, I should have said, a distance of 4:35 miles. Mr. Stone: Do you turn your train there or do you back up! Mr. Carr : I got a little ahead of my story. AVe back over between Thayer and Clinton Junction and turn the engine at at a turn table there, and then complete the trip toward Clinton Junction with the engine headed that way. Then we back from Clinton Junction to Lancaster. We have ten minutes to get around our train at Clinton Junction and upon arrival at Lan- caster we have ten or twelve minutes before we leave, which time is consumed in getting by the train, getting the train around the engine, or getting around the train. We leave there at 3.22 for Boston over the same route that we came out. We arrive back at Boston at 4:54, and as soon as the pas- sengers and express are discharged, we back the draft out into the yard. We leave the engine with the hostler at the same place that I spoke of in the morning and as soon as the hostler cares for the engine, which has to be done as quickly as pos- sible, as we only have fifty-eight minutes from the time when we arrive in Boston before we leave on the return trip for Lowell. After receiving the engine, oil, and get back to the station, coupled to five cars, try the air, and leave at 5:52 for Lowell. We have dropped two of these cars at Bedford, and continue on with the other three as far as Lowell. Mr. Stone: At what time do you arrive at Lowell! Mr. Carr: I arrive at Lowell at 7:06, as we have quite a large amount of express on this last trip in, and the trains 237 that come in there off the other branches make the trains rather thick, and many times we do not get a chance to back out until 7 :25 to 7 :40. It has been as late as 7 :40 ; usually, as I say, about 7 :20. We back the train out into the storage yard and cross the main line to the engine house, inspect the engine, make out the reports and register off, as soon as this is done, which usually is, as I say, from 7 :25 to 7 :45, and I get home about quarter of eight. I live very close to the engine house. This makes me out, from the time that I am obliged to get up in order to get any breakfast, from about four in the morning until eight at night. We get 148 miles for this trip, paid on the mileage basis. Mr. Stone : What rate per mile ? Mr. Carr: Four cents per mile. Mr. Stone: Eun every day? Mr. Carr: Five days a week. We have Saturday and Sun- day off. Five days is all that I am able to stand it. I might mention that this is over three pieces of double track and two pieces of single line on the two divisions. That is what comprises the run. Mr. Stone: I have not computed it, but can you tell me without computing, what your weekly wage is ? Mr. Carr : $29.60. Mr. Stone : That is all I have. The Chairman: How much would that be a month? Mr. Carr : It would be about $1,539.20 a year, figuring that by the week. Mr. Duncan : How long have you had that run ? Mr. Carr : Since last April. Mr. Duncan : That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: Now, I should like to put on some of our men who have handled the heavy freight service, and the first man I shall call will be Arthur Fero, who runs a Mallet compound for the New York Central. 238 Aethue Fero was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : State by what road you are employed, your age, . where you run, and the class of service. Mr. Fero: By the New York Central, on the Pennsylvania Division. My age is 41. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the employ of the company 1 Mr. Fero: I have been in the employ of this road, for the last 20 years — 20 years last April. Mr. Stone: You were on that road when it was taken over by the New York Central Lines! Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How long did you fire on that division? Mr. Fero: About seven years and a half. Mr. Stone : And have been running since that ? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Stone: You have been in freight service most of the time ? Mr. Fero : Practically all of the time, only as I would catch extra passenger work. Mr. Stone : You are using one of the new Mallets ? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Stone : Explain the nature of your service, and what time you report for service — are you called for tripsi? Mr. Fero: Yes. • Mr. Stone: You have no regular hours? Mr. Fero : We have no regular hours. We are working in a pool or "chain gang" as we call it, a certain number of men assigned to this pool. We work first in and first out. We are called two hours before the time we are wanted to leave the yard. We are given 30 minutes to get our engines ready to go on, before the train is ready to move. Mr. Stone: It is not possible to do it in that time, is it? Mr. Fero: That isn't possible on the Mallet engines. The majority of our men report one hour before leaving time, in order to get on their train and make the movement on time. 'To get one of these engines ready, we have first to get on the- engine and inspect the crown sheet and ash pan and grates to- 239 -see that they are 0. K. After that we have to oil two engines, which consist of about 114 places to oil. We have, in addition to that, 24 grease cups to know that they are filled, and the plugs properly locked with the jam nuts. On this oiling there are nine oil holes that have to be filled with valve oil, owing to the superheated steam. Then we have to know that the proper signal apparatus, which we are sup- posed to carry, is on the engine. Our tools — each man has his case and the tools are locked in a case and placed on the engine. Also 'the oil and supplies are placed on the engine, but we are held accountable to know that they are there. After all of this is done, we have to finish filling the tank with coal, and fill the tank with water. Mr. Stone: Pardon me for interrupting you. Why do you have to fill the tank with coal, isn't the engine coaled up com- ing in? Mr. Fero: The engine is coaled coming in, but the Mallet type of engine has to dump every trip and the superheater tubes are cleaned in order that they will produce the steam necessary, and it, of course, uses a lot of coal in firing them up. Mr. Stone: How much coal do you generally have to put on to fill up your tank? Mr. Fero : Why, usually about three tons. Mr. Eidlitz: Does the engineer have to put that on, Mr. Witness? Mr. Fero: You have to place the engine under the coal chute. We have a man stationed there for putting this coal on. The fireman has to take the water. It is the engineer's duty to see that the sand boxes are both filled on these engines before leaving the terminal. Mr. Stone : It is very necessary to know that you have sand with that type of engine, is it not! Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Fero: Due to their high steam pressure and super- heated steam, they are very slippery. Then, we are ready to go to the yard for our train. The division over which I run is 110 miles ; 50 miles of this is double track and 60 miles single track, intersected. 240 Mr. Stone : You run from Corning south to where ? Mr. Fero: To Newberry Junction. Mr. Stone: Corning is your headquarters? Mr. Fero : Corning is home terminal ; yes, sir. Mr. Stone. These Mallet engines are kept on that division, except in cases of emergency, are they not — you rarely run north . of Corning? Mr. Fero : Only when it is necessary to use the power north - in th.t last year. They did use them north a great deal during the bad weather last winter. Mr. Stone: What is your tonnage with this engine? Mr. Fero: At Corning, going south, descending the grade,., we usually have empties, and our trains consist of 100 empties. At the top of the hill 36 miles from Corning, if tne cars are there, we have filled out to as high as 130. No difficulty in handling them down the grade — these are empty cars. Mr. Stone : You have difficulty in keeping up your train line work on a string of cars like that, don't you? Mr. Fero : Yes, it keeps the pump very busy, lots of times we cannot keep the train line pressure to 70, what we usually carry. Mr. Stone : Then the business south is nearly all empties ? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Loaded cars going back north ? Mr. Fero : Going back north, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: : Largely coal, is it? Mr. Fero : Mostly coal — coal and brick. After we arrive at Avis or Newberry Junction, whichever place they run us, then oar engine is placed on the pit designated by the company, and there our time ceases. Mr. Stone: Ceases when, the minute the engine stops? Mr. Fero : The minute the wheels stop rolling, as they have a man placed there to take the time the minute the wheels stop rolling. Then we inspect our engine, go to the office where there is a man stationed to write down, what repairs are necessary on this egine. After that we go to the register book and register in. Then we are done for that trip. Mr. Stone: How long does this generally take after the wheels have been stopped rolling? 241 Mr. Fero: Well, usually about three minutes, at that end of the road. We make a thorough inspection of the engine, and Jo rlie necessary repairs. Mr. Stone: Are you required to go under the engine and anake a pit inspection? Mr. Fero: We are not; anything we can see from the 'Outside. Mr. Judson: Who goes under the pit? Mr. Fero: They have inspectors at these terminals. Mr. Stone: You are held responsible? Mr. Fero : We are held responsible in this way, that if we -do not make out a working report, we are called in the office to find out why we did not; and we are supposed to report every- ■ tiling that we know needs repairing on that engine. Mr. Stone: They take quite a good deal of repairing, don't they? Mr. Fero : Well, after they have run for the length of time i;hat the engines are out of the shop, they do. When they first •came here about a year ago the repairs were light, as the engines were then new. Mr. Stone : Now, you are off duty at the south end of your run ? Mr. Eidlitz: Excuse me, how long was that run, or what time does it take? Mr. Stone: I do not believe he said the time. I have not asked him yet. Mr. Fero: That is impossible to tell you, just how long this run would take, as sometimes we make this trip in 9 hours and sometimes we consume 16, owing to the single track. When business is good, as we call it, there are a great number of trains over this road, and the movement is very slow. In that distance there are 20 sidings which we have to take in going this direction, for opposing trains. Mir. Stone : The man going north takes the right of way. Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Stone: And the man going south takes the sidings? Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Stone : Have you ever been tied up. under the 16 hour law, going south? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Last winter during bad weather, we 242 were relieved by another crew and went to the terminal with that crew. Mr. Stone: What was the cause of being tied up, slow movement of trains, or heavy tonnage? Mr. Fero: It was one of the coldest nights we had last winter, and it was impossible to keep the air hose in the train coupled so that we could get air through enough to release the brakes. What I mean by this, every time the slack would run in, the air hose were being frozen so stiff they would stay buckled, and when the train straightened again, they would re- fuse to take their normal place. Thus it was necessary for the brakeman to go the entire length of this train and put these air hose in proper position before we could proceed. Mr. Stone : When you are released at the south end of your trip, then, of course, you are subject to call, whenever — Mr. Fero: After eight hours, provided we have not been over sixteen. If we have been sixteen hours or more, then ten hours. Mr. Stone: Now, you start back north. You go through the process of getting your engine ready for inspection! Mr. Fero: Yes, sir, except that the tanks are filled with coal at this point. Mr. Stone: How many loads do you handle north, what is your tonnage! Mr. Fero : Our tonnage, out of Avis, is 3,500 adjusted tons. Mtr. Stone: What do you mean by adjusted tons! Mr. Fero : That will figure on a train of 3,500 tons, in actual tons about 3,800 tons, or near about that. Mr. Van Hise: That is the entire weight of the train! Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How long do you lay there, or have you laid, at this lower end? Mr Fero: The longest I have ever laid there? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Fero : I have been there 21 hours. Mr. Stone: How long do you generally lay? Mr. Fero : We generally lay on this type of engine, just for our rest, as the men who were assigned those engines or were asked to take those engines at the time they were brought there were given to understand that our long lay over would be at our home terminal. 243 Mr. Stone: Well, why was that, as an incentive to take them? Mr. Fero : I should say so. Mr. Stone : You take 3,500 adjusted tons out of there ? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Stone: Do you handle that tonnage all the way? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you fill up with any more tonnage at any time? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir, when we get to the top of what we coll the hill there is another road there, the B. & S. There we fill out to as high as 96 numbers, lots of times. Mr. Stone: 96 loads you mean? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: "What is the tonnage then? Mr. Fero : Well, I could not tell you, as the number of loftds for 3,500 tons varies from 58 to 62 numbers. The .tornagf we take down, we never know just what it is. Mr. Stone: You take up to how many? Mr. Fero : 96. Mr. Stone: 96? Mr. Fero: That is the highest I have ever gone. M!r. Stone: Can your engines handle that, working com- pound? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir, except in very cold weather. Mr. Stone: Then what do you do? Mr. Fero : Then we simple them. Mr. Stone: Then is when they get slippery? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do you use the air sanders on both engines then, or only one? Mr. Fero : Usually, using sand on the lead engine will hold both of them to the rail, except in a very bad rail ; then I usually have to use it on both engines. Mr. Stone: How many miles do you work these engines, simple ? Mr. Fero : At different points where the hard pulls are, I should imagine altogether, about six miles during this trip north, adding them together. 244 Mr. Stone : Are those your instructions, to simple these en- gines whenever necessary to pull your tonnage! Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Who issues that order? Mr. Fero : Our road foreman of engines instructs us to do this. Mr. Van Hise : What do you mean by simpling the engine f Mr. Fero : By simpling the engine, you admit live steam to the low pressure engine ; in other words, when working a Mallet compound you exhaust steam from the high pressure cylinder, which is the back cylinder. Mr. Stone : High pressure. Mr. Fero : High pressure cylinder, I should say, which is the back cylinder, into a receiver pipe and the four point engine, the low pressure engine, then takes her steam from this receiver pipe. While working this Mallet simple, you put live steam into both cylinders of both engines. Mr. Van Hise : To give it more power. Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I might explain, Mr. Chairman, if you will par- don me for the interruption — The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: The Mallet engine was originally designed to get more service out of the same volume of fuel and we used that steam more economically, or used the steam the second time, — a compound engine. First we had a Vanclain compound, then we had, later on this type of Mallet but we did not manage to pull the tonnage we thought we should, so they now, on some of the roads, are using the live steam on what was usually de- signed to use the low pressure steam or the low pressure engine. The result is, it makes the engine very slippery, it is very hard to hold on the rail, and pretty hard to keep them together and keep them out of the shop if you are going to use live steam in the low pressure cylinder. Mr. Stone : You say you fill up to 96 loads. Mr. Fero : If we have them at this point. Mr. Stone : What was your tonnage before you got this type of engine? You were running on the same division, were you not? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. 245 Mr. Stone : What were you running I Mr. Fero : A Consolidation engine, out of this same point where we take the 3,500 adjusted. The tonnage for that engine is 2,000. Mr. Stone : Then, by changing from the Consolidation to the Mallet they increased your tonnage per train from 2,000 to 3,500 adjusted." Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Stone : That means practically 3,800 tons. Mr. Fero : In that neighborhood. Mr. Stone: Is that correct! Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do you have any trouble in handling these trains down the hills with this loaded train? Mr. Fero: Not on that end of the division. Going north, from Corning to DeWitt, we have a grade there to descend, two of these grades about 12 miles each in length. Mr. Stone: Do you have any assistance from hand brakes down the grades'? Mr. Fero : We do not. Mr. Stone: You handle the speed of the trains yourself? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir; with the assistance of the brakemen turning up retainers. Mr. Stone : Explain to to this Board what pressure retain- ers are? Mr. Fero: A pressure retainer on a car is a construction that will maintain 15 pounds in the brake cylinder, while you re- lease and recharge your auxiliaries through the train line. Mr. Stone : So outside of the 15-pound retainers which are turned up on the head end, I suppose, of course, to keep your train bunched — Mr. Fero : That is under the supervision of the engineer, to tell the brakeman how many to turn up. Mr. Stone: It depends on how your train handles, what condition your brakes are in? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Some trains handle much better than others? Mr. Fero : Oh, yes, due to the slack being taken up in the brake arrangement. On some cars the slack is not adjusted as it should be, while on others it is in good shape. 246 Mr. Stone : How many air brake cars do you handle, — how many cars are air braked, rather, would be a better way to put it! Mr. Fero: I don't know that I ever went down this grade with anything but air braked cars. Mr. Stone: All air? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Well, do you not have trouble keeping up your train line pressure, with that length of train? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir; due to the fact that we have to make- reductions quite frequently. To keep the train under control it has been necessary ta stop the train and get the air pressure up to the proper position. On this train we carry eighty pounds train line and 120 main reservoir. Mr. Stone : In your judgment, does it require more skill and more labor to handle this heavier train? Mr. Fero : It certainly does. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Fero : To keep the train together and not break the train in two; and also in starting the train with this type of engine, and also in stopping it. Mr. Stone : If you handle those heavy tonnage trains very gently, they stay together? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do you make as many miles as you used to with the other type of engine? Mr. Fero : Not on an average. Mr. Stone : Is your monthly earning as much as it was with tlie other type of engine, consolidation ? Mr. Fero : I should consider it was a little more. Mr. Stone: Why? On account of longer hours or increased rites for this type of engine? Mr. Fero : On Account we get one dollar more for 100 miles for running these engines, than we did on the larger single- engines that we operated. Mr. Stone: And is your monthly wage any more than it was before? Mr. Fero: About the same. Mr. Stone: Well, if you get more per mile, why do you not make more money per month? 247 Mr. Fero: The men lay off more. Mr. Stone : Why do they do that? Mr. Fero: Simply because they can't stand it to run tlie engines for any great length of time steady. They must lay • off occasionally for rest. Mr. Stone: What have been your average earnings, can you tell us? You have been running a Mallet for about a year, I think, since they came there? Mr. Fero : It is about eleven months and a half. Why, my average per month has been, since I have been running these engines, in the neighborhood of $135, as near as I could esti- mate it. Mr. Stone : How much expense have you away from home ? Mr. Fero : At Avis or Newbury our expense will average about one dollar per trip in there. Mr. Stone : In addition to that, do you carry a lunch bucket with you from home? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: If you did not carry any lunches from home, .your living expenses would be more, would they not? Mr. Fero: They certainly would, because you cannot buy as cheap as you can carry it in a pail. Mr. Stone : Do you have the same engine every trip ? Mr. Fero : We have had a regular engine assigned to each man until about the 1st of June; then they assigned two men to each one of these Mallets? Mr. Stone: Why was that? Mr. Fero: Due to the threatened coal strike and a surplus of men. Mr. Stone: You did not make $135 a month with two en- gineers running one Mallet, did you? Mr. Fero: No, sir; $135 was my average', I said, for the year. Mr. Stone : What did you make when you had two men on the engine in June? Mr. Fero : In June, the first half of June, my engine paid me $41.52 ; the last two weeks paid me $41.82. This month they have begun with three men on two engines, 17 engines in the !>ool. How that will develop I am unable to say. 248 Mr. Stone: Has the tonnage been increased on these engines, since you got them, or have you always pulled that tonnage? Mr. Fero : Practically the same as we began with, as they made one of the most severe tests on this type of engine that was ever made. In fact, they tested them three or four months over this same grade and had the Pennsylvania test car, at that time, perform the operation. Mr. Stone: Have you had any trouble with these engines leaking steam around the piston and valve, and around the ball joints on the steam pipe? Mr. Fero : Not a bit of trouble while we were running single crewed engines, owing to the fact that all work reported, at that time it was necessary for them to repair, as the man- would be quite apt to refuse to take the engine out if it had" not been repaired. We also have a superintendent there that wants the work done on those engines in preference to any- thing else, except passengers. Mr. Stone: In other words, he is trying to keep the power up? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: But isn't that type of engine worse about leak- ing steam than other types? Mr. Fero: There are more places for steam to leak on this type of engine than any type that we have. Mr. Stone: What is the result of the leakage? Mr. Fero: Blinds your vision, in seeing ahead or back. More especially in cold weather. Mr. Stone: That is all I want to ask, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Eidlitz: I didn't quite get, Mr. Stone, what the time is he makes from his initial start to the end, or destination — the duration of the swing and return. |Mr. Stone : It is impossible to tell the time, because no two trips are the same. There is no time card; they simply run it in when they can. It might be possible to make an average of his trips. (Addressing the witness) : Could you give an aver- age of the usual time of your trips? Mr. Fero: We, usually, I should say, for the trip between Avis and Corning, an average close to 14 hours. Mr. Morrissey: What is the mileage? Mr. Stone: 110. 249 Mr. Van Hise: And the other way? Mr. Fero : The other way, a little shorter ; I should imagine about 12, on the average. Mr. Van Hise: This is actually the actual running time? Mr. Fero : Over the actual run, yes. sir. The Chairman : I would dike to ask Mr. Stone one question. Can an ordinary engineer running an ordinary engine, run one of these Mallet engines? Mr. Stone: Oh, yes; just as an engineer — in the first place you know, we would not consider an engineer was an ordinary engineer, to start with. The Chairman: I did not use the word "ordinary" in that sense. I meant an engineer who runs an ordinary engine. Mr. Stone : The explanation of that, Mr. Chairman, is that an engineer is expected to be qualified and capable of running any type of engine, just as a man in the electric service is sup- posed to be qualified and capable of running any one of the six or seven types of locomotives that they have. ( The Chairman: Does it require, in your opinion, a higher order of skill to run a Mallet engine than to run an ordinary locomotive engine? Mr. Stone : So far as the work is concerned, it is practically the same, any more than it is increased by the fact that you have two engines to take care of. It is also increased by the further fact of the increased tonnage you are handling. There is just twice as much to look after. The only difference is you have one boiler and two engines. Mr. Duncan: Do you have two levers? Mr. Stone: No. most of the Mallets even have an air re- verse. The question seems to crop up in regard to a man's skill in handling a lever. If that is all a locomotive engineer drew money for, handling a lever, he is paid too much. You can go out and get a Slav, who came over here last week to do that for a dollar and a quarter a day. Mr. Duncan: How many trips do you make a month, Mr. Fero : Mr. Fero : I could not give you the exact number of trips without having my time book here, which I haven 't got. Mr. Duncan: Can you tell me how many you would have to make, to earn $135 a month? 250 Mr. Fero: How many I would have to make? Mr. Duncan: Yes, approximately? Mr. Fero : No, sir, I could not, owing to the amount of over- time that is counted in with this. Mr. Duncan: That is, you are paid for overtime? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Over what number of hours? Mr Fero : Over ten hours. Mr. Duncan: So that this average trip of 14 hours which you have referred to, would give you four hours overtime? Mr. Fero : It would, on a 100 mile run. Mr. Duncan: And a 12 hour trip which you talk of would give you two hours overtime? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : When you are tied up under the 16 Hour Law you would be paid for the trip, would you? Mr. Fero: How is that? Mr. Duncan: When you are tied up under the lo Hour Law, you are paid for the trip the same as if you took the train to its destination? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir, paid until the engine arrives at the terminal. We ride in, in the caboose. Mr. Judson: I did not understand that, Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan: He is paid for the trip, just the same, and he gets the overtime as well (addressing the witness) ; you get the overtime as well? Mr. Fero: I get whatever hours it requires that train to complete the trip. Mr. Duncan : You do not finish the trip ? Mr. Fero : We simply ride in; we are not allowed to work. Mr. Duncan: That is, you deadhead in and have not any work to perform. Mr. Fero : No, sir. Mr. Duncan : But you get paid for the complete trip, just as if you had taken the engine in. Mr. Fero: Yes, sir, provided we ride on our train. If we go on a passenger train from this point in, our time ends when we arrive on the passenger train. If we are ordered to ride in the trip we were handling before, why, we receive pay until we arrive. 251 Mr. Van Hise: Does that include the full overtime — if it took, for instance, 20 hours to get in, you would have ten hours overtime on 100 miles? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Now, you stated that you filled out your train when you got to the top of the grade from 100 cars to 130 cars. How often do your trains north fill out at the top of the grade? Mr. Fero : Trains north draw loads. Mr. Duncan : Trains south. How often do you have to fill out a train south? Mr. Fero : To that number ? Mr. Duncan: Yes? Mr. Fero : Not very often. Mr. Duncan: Can you give us an idea how many times a month? Mr. Fero : This time, I spoke of, was during the extremely cold weather last winter when they turned crews at this point, switching their entire train and picking up loads that they had received from the B. & S. Mr. Duncan: That was an exceptional instance, due to weather conditions? Mr. Fero : Well, it was done quite frequently, at that time. Mr. Duncan : Due to weather conditions ? Mr. Fero: It was either due to weather conditions or due to more empties running south than there was loads north. That I could not say which. Mr. Duncan : That is not the usual practice ? Mr. Fero : No, sir, because there is no need to run 130 south when they could not bring but 75 north ; they would run out of cars in a short time. Mr. Duncan : Do the grades on your division, or the physical characteristics of your road, make it harder for you to handle your engine than, if you are running on level track? Mr. Fero : Very much. Mr. Duncan : So that that is one of the things that you take into consideration in operating your engine, when you are going down the grades and up the hills? Mr. Fero: I don't know as I understand your question. Mr. Duncan : I understood you to say it was more difficult to operate your engine on a division with the physical characteris- 252 ties, such as you describe, than it was if you were on a level track? Mr. Fero : It is, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: So, I say, you take those things into consid- eration when you are operating your train? Mr. Fero : You must. Mr. Judson: How large a train load do you draw with these Mallet engines, how many cars do you carry? Mr. Fero: With loads, from 58 to 62 on this grade, south of Corning. North, 75 loads down this grade that he was just speaking of. Mr. Judson: That is because it is down grade? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir; I bave handled 96 on this. Mr. Duncan : Down grade ? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: What is the most you have handled on the up grade ? Mr. Fero: On the up grade, that is our regular train, that I spoke of, from 58 to 62 numbers. Mr. Judson : That is loaded cars ? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : What was the number of cars carried with an ordinary engine, which you used before the introduction of these Mallet engines? Mr. Fero : The largest type that we have draws, over this same grade, 2,000 tons to our 3,500. Mr. Duncan : What do you have to do to keep the air pumps up? Mr. Fero : Keep close watch and be sure your air pump is working. Mr. Duncan : It works automatically, does it not ! Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Duncan: And, it is pumping the air which is used in braking the train, you might say? Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Duncan: Have your trains made better time between Corning and Avis, since Mallet engines were put in service in that territory? Mr. Fero: They have; yes, sir; for the reason that there were but very few trains on the road, compared with the number 253 that we handled before, which made it impossible on this single track to get better movements. Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Stone : I would like to ask a couple of questions brought out by Mr. Duncan's examination. You stated you were ordered to dead head in on your own train after you were relieved under the Sixteen Hour Law ? Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Stone: Are you always required to do this, or do you generally dead head in on a passenger train ? Mr. Fero : The despatcher is the authority for that ; he tells you what to do. Mr. Stone : And the despatcher generally gets you in ; if he has got something that he can get you in on quicker, he does it? Mr. Fero : That is his duty. Mr. Stone : While you are laying there, after you have been relieved under the Sixteen Hour Law, until you start to dead head in, is that time deducted? Mr. Fero : It was not, in these cases, because we did not lay. Mr. Stone : But when you do lay, is it deducted? Mr. Fero : Not if ordered to dead head in. If you were re- lieved and ordered to get your rest along the road at this point, then your time would cease. Mr. Duncan : Can you give us an idea, Mr. Fero, what por- tion of the time you have to work in order to earn on an average $135 a month? Mr. Fero : What portion of the time? Mr. Duncan : Yes. Mr. Fero : We are at our home terminal from 20 to, lots of times, 45 hours. Mr. Duncan: Consecutively? Mr. Fero : Yes, sir, consecutively. Mr. Duncan : How often will that occur ? Mr. Fero: How often? Mr. Duncan: Yes, how often during the month? _ Mr. Fero : Quite frequently. It depends on fluctuations uf business, working in pool service. Mr. Duncan : Can you give me any idea how much time you would be off duty, on the average, earning the average $135 ? Mr. Fero : That would be impossible for me to give you those 254 figures, owing to the fact you have no idea what overtime is go- ing to figure out. Mr. Duncan: What compensation do you get for ten hours service ? Mr. Fero: What is that? , Mr. Duncan: What do you get for ten hours' service! Mr. Fero: On this engine? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Fero: $5.85; 58y 2 cents per hour. Mr. Duncan : How much do you get for overtime ? Mr. Fero : The same figure. Mr. Duncan: So that your trips on the north average about fourteen' hours? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan: So that you get $5.85 plus four times 58^ cents, making $8.17 for a trip that would take fourteen fours? Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Duncan: Now, you have given us your average wage and you have also stated what you have made in the last month or so, particularly in June. Can you give me the highest amount you have made in any one month? Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Duncan: What is that? Mr. Fero : In the month of March I made $217. Mr. Duncan: You spoke, in connection with the wage you received during the month of June, of there being two engin- eers to one train or one engine? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Two crews on one engine ? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan : What did you mean by that ? Mr. Fero : I mean that there were two men operating this same engine, instead of one ; one would make a trip and then he would lay off until the other one made a. trip with this enginej? Mr. Stone : I think Mr. Duncan got you mixed on your rate. If I figure your rate right for a fourteen hour trip, you would only make $8.08, 110 miles at $5.85 and three hours overtime at 58% cents. Mr. Duncan : I may have miscalculated. 255 Mr. Butterworth: He said four hours overtime. Mr. Stone: There would not be four hours overtime on a 110 mile trip. Mr. Shaw: In what way does the ten hour rule operate in this pool system? Your compensation is not by the day but by the hour as ordinarily reckoned? Mr. Stone: There is no such thing as an actual ten hour day. jit is simply the basis to start on to compute overtime and, on this 110 mile division, on the overtime basis the over- time would begin after 11 hours. Mr. Shaw: But, what are the conditions under which he is paid the ten hour day? Overtime is simply additional hours paid for at the hourly rate, so that,' unless we understand the conditions of a ten hour day, he is not working on a ten hour day, but working on an hourly pay of 58% cents an hour. Mr. Duncan: That is what it practically amounts to. Mr. Stone : That is practically what it means in this heavy freight service. Mr. Shaw: I do not see that the ten hoiirs figure at all in this system, but merely that he is being compensated by the hour at 58% cents per hour, subject to the restrictions of the 16 Hour Law. Mr. Duncan: It is a minimum below which they cannot be paid. Mr. Worthington : But, if he should go over the nine hours he would get the full day's pay. Mr. Stone : That is a possibility, but not a probability. Mr. Worthington: If he would go out for four hours and make the trip he would get the full ten hours ' pay. Mr. Shaw : But, under this pool system it would not be like- ly to happen. Mr. Worthington: They do. They break down. Mr. Eidlitz : I would like to ask a question there. You get $5.85 for the 110 mile. run? Mr. Fero : No, for 100. Mr. Duncan: And you would get $5.85 if it was only a 90 mile run, would you not? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan : So that you get your minimum $5.85 whether 256 you run the 100 miles, or run 90 miles, or whether it takes you 10 or 6 hours to do it! Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And your overpay commences after your ten hours, is not that right? Mr. Fero: Providing you have not over 100 miles to run. Mr. Duncan : Provided your run is not over ? Mr. Fero: Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, as you say, your average runs up there require you to be in service about 14 hours. Mr. Fero : 12 to 14 hours. Mr. Duncan : 12 to 14 hours, depending whether it is north or southbound, so that, so far as you are concerned, on those runs you are on the 58^2 cent hourly basis, as Mr. Shaw suggested, unless you are held out or cannot make your run f Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Stone : On the month you made this $217, you did not hrve many of these 45 hour lay-offs at home. Mr. Fero : No, sir. Mr. Stone : How did you come to make so much that month, how did it happen ? Mr. Fero: Well, business was good and we were expecting a coal strike and it was simply a case of get what you could get before they went out. Mr. Stone: Everybody worked to the limit of endurance to £.tt ready for the famine that was coming afterwards! Mr. Fero : Yes. Mr. Stone : You could not keep up that pace for any length of time, could you! Mr. Fero : I don 't believe that man lives that could. Mr. Stone : During these periods, when you are at home, are you at liberty to go wherever you please during this lay-over, or do you have to keep in touch with the roundhouse and tho callers? Mr. Fero : "We are at liberty to go wherever we please until our 8 or 10 hours are up, whichever it requires for our rest, and then we are subject to call at any time. Mr. Stone : And must keep in touch with the roundhouse ? Mr. Fero: Yes, sir. 257 Mr. Stone : Or the caller ? Mr. Fero : Yes. The Chairman: What do you mean by keeping in touch? Mr. Stone : If I am going down here two blocks to get shaved, or to the meat market to buy some meat, I have to leave word Lt the house that I am going to the barber shop to be shaved, and then over to the meat market to get some meat. I must keep in touch so the caller can find me. Mr. Duncan: In other words, they must leave word at the house. Mr. Stone : In other words, he had better be where he can be found, if he does not want to be disciplined. Mr. Fero: Leaving word at the house, if they cannot find you, does not help you any. Mr. Willard: Of course, in leaving word at the house he is interested somewhat on his account. He would not want to be missed. If the caller would call and could not find him, he would lose the run. And one other thought, I think, ought to be mentioned just now. During the time he was making the "$217, working to the limit of his endurance, of course during all that time he had each day all of the hours, at rest, at least, that are provided for in the Federal Laws ; you were not permitted to ^o out at any time without eight or ten hours rest, were you? Mr. Fero : No. Mr. Stone : But, I would also like to bring out in connection with that, Mr. Willard, that, on many of these roads, leaving word at the house where you will be found does not do any good at all. That is not any excuse, leaving word at the house where you may be found. It is true the man has an interest in being found. Mr. Willard : That is true, it is not only for the purpose of escaping discipline, but so he will not miss his opportunity. Oh, yes. Mr. Stone : No, sir. That is all I want to ask. (Witness excused.) 258 Mr. Stone : Now I would like to put on Mr. Jackson, who is an engineer on what is known as the Pittsburgh Division of the Pennsylvania. One of the men who run over the famous Horse- shoe curve, and handles a four engine train. Robert F. Jackson, was called as a witness, and testified as follows: Mr. Jackson: Age 33. Mr. Stone: Pittsburgh Division of the Pennsylvania? Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the service of the company ? Mr. Jackson: 13 years and seven months. Mr. Jackson: How long did you fire? Mr. Jackson: 3 years, 7 months, 23 days. Mr. Stone: Been running in freight service since that? Mr. Jackson: About ten years. Mr. Stone: Describe your duties as an engineer, what you have to do, the class of work you are in, especially the class of work. Mr. Jackson: Well, I am on what is known as a slow freight pool run. Mr. Judson: What kind of a run? Mr. Jackson: Pool. Mr. Judson: Pool? Mr. Jackson : Yes, that means first in, first out ; chain gang. I am called when they need me. After I am called, which is usually one hour and thirty minutes at my point, (that is by special arrangement, or an hour before we report at the engine house), we are required to report 30 minutes before time re- quired to leave the storage track with our engine, and, during that 30 minutes, I am required to examine the bulletin board, report to the engine despatcher, compare time with the standard clock, and, when he hands me my time slip, I am required to sign on the back of that time slip that I have done that service, examined the bulletin board, and compared the time. 259 I then procure the keys of the engine and ascertain where she is located on the siding; find the engine Mr. Judson: Obtain the key to the engine? Mr. Jackson: The key. Everything is locked up on our road, all the equipment. Go there, examine the tool equipment, signal supplies, which are specified, certain amounts must be there, and have to check over them and ascertain they are all there, ropes, pulleys, extra knuckles, cross head blocks, and such equipment as is required in case of accidents, — minor accidents ; also, first aid supplies. I will then try the water in the boiler, examine my glass water gauge, examine the fire box, and give the engine a gen- eral inspection. During this time that I am giving the engine an inspection, the fireman, as a rule, is there, and draws the oil. Mr. Judson : You do not mean you go under the engine ? Mr. Jackson: No, sir, on the outside. Mr. Judson: The inspector does that? Mr. Jackson : The inspector does that, as we are coming in. Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Jackson : I am required, as these other gentlemen have told you, to know that we have sand, headlights filled, and of course our engines are always coaled. After I have inspected her, the fireman, as a rule, is back with the oil. I oil the engine and set down the grease on the rod, in the rod cups; they are supposed to be filled, but I am held responsible that they are filled and set down properly. After we have got that done, oiled around, know we are ready to go, we proceed to go up the yard and fill our tender with water. The .fireman does that. We will go up a little farther than that, go in on a siding while the pushers — we, as •a rule, have two engines in front and two behind. The pusher will go in and get the caboose ; we will then go to the east end of the yard, where our trains, as a rule in slow freight, are made up ; on our fast freight trains, as a rule, we have to waste con- siderable time on them ; they are drilled over the hump for us and coupled up by the crew, and we are required to get these trains ready. But, in our slow freight service, as a rule, they are already pulled in on a track, solid train, and the train tested by inspectors. That is a terminal test. When we get to the east end of the yard, the conductor usu- 260 ally gets off of the train to compare his manifest, as he comes up towards the train end,, about 70 cars, as a rule ; up to 70 cars, to be fair. But, as we go to the east end with the engine, as a rule, we have to foul the main tracks to go in on tracks where we get our train, and we are required, if the conductor is not there, to go to the telephone and ascertain, or get permission from the signal man to follow the main track to go back to our train. The train man is not allowed to do that ; it is necessary for the engine man to do that in the absence of the conductor. After we get back on the train, we will pump our air up to 70 points, in case there has a proper terminal test been made by the inspector; in ease that hasn't been done, we will pump our train pipe pressure up to 100 pounds, and make the test, while they count them. If we have made the test, we will report to the conductor a list of the number of cars working in the train. After we have made the proper test, then we are ready to pro- ceed. After the conductor and myself have compared time and he has got the permission to proceed, we start out. We have automatic signals for about 40 miles on our divi- sion, which would be something over 20 miles on that end of the division from where I start. I start at Pitcairn, which is about 16 miles out of Pittsburgh ; that is the main freight terminal on our line. After we go quite a distance on the automatic signals that have been in effect there for several years, we run under another system of signals, another plan, that is equipped with upper quadrant signals which you had explained to you yester- day, that move through the upper quadrant, from a horizontal up through the upper quadrant, and also another interlocking, which is a very difficult place to handle a train, with those push- ers behind. We will come through a tunnel at Radebaugh, which is quite lengthy; I don't know exactly how long it is, but I should say about 3,000 feet, and coming out of that tunnel we start down a heavy grade. Usually, if we are on the further track, we get a caution signal coming out of that tunnel. East of Greenburg station there is a positive signal which the cau- tion signal would indicate was at stop position. We must ap- proach that point prepared to stop. Should that signal be at caption (which it very often is) about 30 cars east of there is another positive signal which, if one is at caution, we must approach prepared to stop, and that is much obscured by two 261 overhead bridges which we approach, and farther up there, about 50 car lengths, or something like that, we have another positive signal, and that one carries us through the interlock- ing, or to the first automatic. Now, the reason that I explained this position there, is that is a very foggy country through there and with two pushers on the rear end, or one -pusher on the rear end, the only indi- cation they have back on the rear end of that train that you have a signal or you expect to proceed is by the raising of the pointer, we will call it — the hand we usually call it on the railroad — of our air gauge, which indicates that we have in- creased the pressure in the train pipe, to relieve the brake, to proceed. . Mr. Judson: How many cars do you have on such a train? Mr. Jackson: Up to seventy cars, I would say, loaded cars. In foggy weather it makes it very, very difficult, and I might say, under the automatic signals anywhere, if you are follow- ing another train, it makes it very difficult and increases your responsibilities, because you must endeavor to keep that train together, and in doing that, with those long trains, it makes it difficult. Mr. Judson: You have four tracks there, havent' you! Mir. Jackson: We have four tracks. Some places on our division we have six tracks and some places five. Mr. Judson: You have a separate track for the freight trains from the passenger trains'? Mr. Jackson: Some places we have two separate tracks for freight trains, but we run on the main tracks, the passen- ger tracks, very often, just as occasion might be that there are ao passenger trains. We proceed that way to Derry, where they cut the two helpers off. From there we haul our train over what we call our level to Conemaugh. This is operated under the manual block system, though I might add that they are putting in electric signals, at the present time, about twenty bridges, on our division. We proceed east to Conemaugh and start up the mountain, where we get two pushers and they push us up to the top of the hill. Mr. Judson: You have four locomotives'? Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir ; four engines on this train, four loco- motives. When we reach Gallitzin, there we pump our train 262 pipe pressure up to 100 pounds, making a terminal test, and n corps of inspectors go through that train and make a thorough inspection. We make a terminal test and have our piston exam- ined and noted that it is of proper length, and they report to us how many cars are working, after we get the signal. Sometimes we lay there a considerable time, owing to some minor accident on the mountain. When we get the signal, we are required to make what we call a road test, making the test in order that we are absolutely sure that the brake is working right to the rear end of the train. The rear engines are then cut off so far as their brakes are concerned, and we test on the last car, to be sure that the brake is working. Then we start down the Allegheny Mountains. The crew, as we are going up to the knuckle, turn up all the retaining valves, just as was explained by Mr. Fero — those are to retain a certain pressure in the train pipe ; some 15 pounds — we have them that have two positions of 25 and 50' — and they turn those up to hold the air in there so we can release the air brake and recharge. Really we do not release the brake from the top to the bottom of the mountain unless we stop, be- cause you have to turn down the retaining valves to do so. To come down this heavy grade, which I believe — I am not sure — coming out of the tunnel and down what we call the Bennington Dump, is something like 129 feet to the mile. I am not sure of that. Coming down there, the lead engineer is operating the brake ; that is, there are two air pumps on each engine, but he is using the air entirely from the first engine, and to get those trains down that mountain it requires a real mechanic. In fact, the company has, until this spring, maintained experts at the top of that mountain at all times, to take the trains down, in case a man thought be had a bad train or thought he was not familiar with the mountain. Mr. Judson : You mean an expert engineer ! Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You are all experts. Mr. Jackson: Well, I might say, Judge, they do not always get the experts at the top of the mountain. As we might say, then, an expert in air brakes, but the men who are handling them every day, and handling them successfully, I presume would be experts, but it is a fact that on a division, with a large number of terminals like our division, and a large number of men who are 263 • extra engineers, they do not get through and over that mountain as frequently as the regular men, you see. Many times, in my experience in nine years extra running, there were times I was not over the mountain in six months, or nearly so, hut that is un- usual, and that may not happen to a man, but he may not feel he is just competent to take them down. So far as the newly pro- moted men are concerned, I think that was the greatest aim. In dropping this train down the mountain, we have all we can do sometimes to take them down successfully, with our 100 pound train pipe, and recently they have established a practice of put- ting a machinist at Gallitzin to increase the main reservoir press- sure to 100 pounds, or thereabouts — 120 or 130, and our train 'pipe,by means of the train pipe governor, is put up to 100 pounds. That is in order to make it possible that we can increase and get a large reserve pressure to recharge the brake. After we get down the mountain and get into Altoona yard, very often, if we have a coal train, and if they are pushing trains out of the yard over the hump, we will get a block in and get a good deal of delay. Now, it takes nearly the full twelve hours, as a rule, to make that 100 miles, sometimes a little over, sometimes nearly six- teen hours. We have had men called out under the law at Cresson and Conemaugh, and, apparently — but, I never had that experience. As I say, very often we get blocked in the yard. I have been blocked in there as high as two hours. They pull those very long trains in there and push the cars over the scales to weigh those cars of coal, and of course that requires a good deal of time to push a train of seventy cars through there. After we get out of there, we go to East Altoona, and there inspect our engine, unless we have an opportunity to do that in the yard because it is our desire to get off the engine just as soon as we can get on the inspection track. We do not deliver the engine to the pit there, but to the inspection track, where a corps of inspectors take charge there and inspect the engine thoroughly. I may say I do not think an engine could get a better inspection than on the Pennsylvania ; they have men in charge of every particular branch, and they take charge of that inspection and inspect everything very minutely. Mr. Judson: You have nothing to do with that? Mr. Jackson : Yes, I am required to inspect my engine out- side and report at that point. 264 Mr. Judson: You do not go under the engine? Mr. Jackson: No, sir. Nowhere on our line, that I know of, is that required. Mr. Judson: These inspectors that you are speaking of are distinct from the engineers! Mr. Jackson: Yes, they are men employed especially for tlrnt purpose. After I make out my work report, and after I arrive on that track, my time stops there. I am required then to walk to the round house, which must be in the neighborhood' of one-fourth of a mile, and deliver my time card and the keys for the engine — I am held responsible until that time; that is, I am for the keys. I must check the tools up and know that they are all there. I must also check my glass water gauge and gauge cocks in my engine. I think that about completes my eastward trip. Mr. Stone : Does double heading east tend to increase your lay-over away from home! Mr. Jackson: Why, yes, it does, because, as has been the practice until quite recently, very recently, they did very little double heading west, and we have east two engines on each train, and that means two engine crews and one train crew west, and so long as they could do it without double heading, they would run one engine and one train crew westbound. Our business, on acount of so many empties going west, is heavier easthound ; that is, we cannot get the number of cars eastbound that we can westbound. Mr. Judson: Where do you live! Mr. Jackson : At Pitcairn. Mr. Morrissey: Where is the business end of this train; the chairman of the committee of four engineers ? Mr. Jackson: The man on the head end of the train, the business end of the train, as we call it! Mr. Judson: Do von follow his directions? Suppose you are in the second engine? Mr. Jackson : On the second engine, I do not interfere with the air brake at all. Mr. Judson: He regulates it? Mr. Jackson : He runs the air brake entirely. I might be ahead this trip and the other fellow might be ahead the next 265 trip, all according to how it is going west; we run in first and first out. It is possible anyone may be on the head end. Mr. Judson : How about the engineers on the rear end ? Mr. Jackson : They have nothing to do with the air brake. They are watching it to keep the train together. When we re- lease the brake, they bunch the slack in order to keep the train from tearing apart. Mr. Judson : You go very slowly ? Mr. Jackson: Well, we have a speed limit on our freight trains of 40 miles an hour. Mr. Judson: 40 miles per hour? Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir, and sometimes they caution us for running over that. I have not been cautioned for running over that speed, but I have heard of men who have been cautioned for running down hill, when it exceeds that sometimes. Mr. Judson : You do not go 40 miles an hour up the moun- tain? Mr. Jackson : Not by a long ways. We would not have quite so many engines if we did. Our speed down the mountains, on our grades, I think averages about 18 hours, and the speed on the western slope about 22 hours, what we call "the quarantine limit," a certain place where we have slow orders. Mr. Stone: How long did you work as an extra man before you got into this regular pool service? Mr. Jackson: Over nine years. Mr. Stone : As an extra man you ran all over the branches and everything else, of the Pittsburgh Division, did you not? Mr. Jackson : Yes, I touched on the Pennsylvania, West. 1 ran as far west, on the Pennsylvania, West, as Conway, on the Fort Wayne. Mr. Stone: How many branches has that Pittsburgh Di- vision got? Mr. Jackson: I don't know that I can tell you. I suppose it is 62. I will say that some of those mountain branches I never saw. Mr. Stone : It is practically a railroad of itself, almost. Mr. Jackson : Yes, a system of itself, I should say. Mr. Stone: How many time cards did you carrv as an extra man » 266 Mr. Jackson: Six time tables. Mr. Stone: And you had to be familiar with the special rules ? Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it possible for an engine crew to be detained at Altoona or Pitcairn after the train crew has been released! Mr. Jackson: Oh, yes. As I stated awhile ago, if we get blocked in behind a train in the Altoona yard, the cabin car or caboose drops down on to the siding and they are sometimes home before we get but of there. Mr. Duncan: Sometimes what? Mr. Jackson: They are home before we get out of there. And the same is the case at Pitcairn, the freight cabin drops right in on the siding as soon as we are in the clear and the brakeman is through and he is released. Mr. Stone: Then it is possible for you to put in an hour or two after the train crew has been released? Mr. Jackson: Frequently. Mr. Stone: In that 40 miles of speed, you do not mean to say you run the coal trains down the mountain at 40 miles an hour? Mr. Jackson: No, they run 18 miles. We have 40 minutes to 12 miles. We put in between Gallitzin and S. F. Tower 7 minutes, the next tower, to Alligrippus, 10 minutes and the next one 8 minutes, to Kittanning Point or the Horseshoe Curve, and from the Horseshoe Curve to McGarveys, 7 minutes, and from McGarveys to Altoona, we must put in 8 minutes. Mr. Stone: Suppose you exceeded that time, what would happen ? Mr. Jackson: Well, we very likely would be on the carpet. I never exceeded it. The Chairman : You will have to explain that. Mr. Stone : That is railroad slang pure and simple. Mr. Jackson : Why, your Honors, you know while we do not, usually — while the Pennsylvania furnishes very nice rest houses they don't usually put carpet on the floor,^but, as a rule, they hav.e carpet in the offices and when we go to the office we are on the carpet. Although I might add The Chairman: I want to ask you one question. What harm does.it do you to be on the carpet? 267 Mr. Jackson: What harm? Well, I might say that there is nothing that galls a railroad man more than to report another railroad man, make out statements, or go to the office on the carpet. Though my experience has been that, in the office of the company, it was very pleasant, — our relations with the officers are very pleasant. But, as a rule, that is considered a hardship. They do not like it. They like to go ahead and attend to business. Furthermore, I might add one thing here. These railroad gentlemen understand the situation exactly. But, now, in case that I was guilty of some infraction of the rules or practice or judgment, and I would go into the office, I possibly might lose a trip. If I am adjudged guilty, that trip is my loss. That is one thing. The Chairman : On account of being detained there 1 Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir. My run possibly has gone out and I have lost that trip. That is another side of it. Mr. Stone: Is it not also looked upon as a disgrace, in a way, by a railroad man to be called in! He does not like it? Mr. Jackson: He certainly does not like it, and when a large crowd gets around the superintendent's office on Monday morning, as we have our court day on Monday morning, there is a knowing smile goes around: "What have you been doing, or what haven't you been doing?" The Chairman : So it is a question of honor with the men? Mr. Jackson: A man feels it so yes. The men like very much to get along. They strive hard to get along, but of course the viccisitudes of the service are such that there are things which lead you to do the same thing over again, while it might not be strictly as the rules of the company require, you could not help it, but you feel somewhat disgraced, as Mr. Stone puts it, that you did not do it the other way. The Chairman : Then it is really a question of pride in per- formance of duty. Mr. Jackson: I would attribute it to that, more than any- thing else. Mr. Stone : If I might be permitted to explain, I think the proudest boast a railroad man has is that he has put in so many years of service and never has been called in on the carpet, that is, called in before the operating officials to explain some infraction of rules perhaps, or some sin of omission or com- 268 mission; that he has never been called in on the carpet and has been 30 or 40 years in the service. Mr. Jackson : May it please your Honors, I had that proud boast for a number of years and when I met our General Man- ager, Mr. Long, I had served under Mr. O'Donnell, as General Superintendent, as Assistant Superintendent and Superintend- ent, and Mr. Long as Superintendent, who is present here, and Mr. O'Donnell as General Superintendent, and Mr. Moore as Superintendent, and I had never met any one of those gentle- men until I came on the General Committee of the Engineers and met them in committee work. So, I had that pride for a long time, but, unfortunately, since that time I have been on the carpet. Mr. Stone : That is all. Mr. Morrissey: Then you do not have to be introduced to your present superintendent! Mr. Jackson : No. Mr. Shaw: We did not get what compensation this witness is receiving ? Mr. Judson : No, nor the time. Mr. Jackson : Well, our schedule requires regular engineers, that is, men assigned regular pool runs, 26 days per month. On my run, which is 89 miles, long, we have a 12 hour limit, that is 12 hours before we get overtime. I get $5.82 per trip, which for 26 days would make me $151.22. Mr. Judson: You are on duty every day! Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: No off days! Mr. Jackson: As a rule the Pennsylvania has been kind enough to us these last few years to shut down their slow, freight movement on Sundays, and, very often, we are at home on Sun- days, or we have an opportunity of, going to our home termi- nal on a passenger train and returning for our run. Mr. Judson : The difference between your service and pas- senger service is that they run on fast trains and make_ their time! Mr. Jackson : Yes. Mr. Judson : And then lay off every other day? Mr. Jackson: Yes. 269 Mr. Judson: While you freight men go slower and work everyday? Mr. Jackson : We work every day, yes, sir. And I might add w'th regard to the signals on our division, where it is so very foggy and especially the Pittsburgh District where it is mixed «.\v.th smoke, the passenger men have a mighty big proposition on the signals because they are high and they are looking up there, and very often they are very hard to see and, more often, we have to judge by the cuts or the physical characteristics of the location" where we are in order to locate them. It is very hard to locate them. Mr. Shaw : When things are favorable, how many hours does it take you to make that run? Mr. Jackson: Well, our eastbound trip, Mr. Shaw, we can- not do very much better than our time limit; but, our westbound trip, it requires more engines to get what we can handle over part of the division westbound with one engine, and of course we can make a better day that way. a day, as we call it. Mr. Judson: These cars are empty? Mr. Jackson: Because we have the grade in our favor. We have 26 miles down hill from the top of the mountains to the foot, at Conemaugh. Mr. Judson: You say, more empties going west? Mr. Jackson: We carry about 70 to 80 empties with one engine, and, when we take empties westbound, as a rule, a solid train of empties, especially gondola cars, we deliver them to the P. V. & C. Division or Monongahela Division, where we are re- quired to make much more mileage than I have stated on our vestbound trip, and we are required to place those cars on sev- eral tracks, which would mean west of Pitcairn, taking 5 hours, sometimes. Mr. Judson: Which do the men prefer, the experienced en- gineers, passenger or freight service. Mr. Jackson : Well, we have men who have left the passen- ger service and prefer freight. Some of our men have passed r p their right, or, you might say, given up their right to passen- ger service and gone in yard service. Mr. Judson: Is it considered a promotion to go from freight to passenger, or from passenger to freight? 270 Mr. Jackson: It is considered a promotion. Mr. Judson: Which way? Mr. Jackson: Up. Mr. Judson : You mean from the — Mr. Jackson: From the freight to passenger. Mr. Judson: Yes. , Mr. Jackson: Yes; it is considered to be a promotion, but some men do not consider it. A man will not put up with the conditions on the local passenger and what they have to go through to get one of those passenger runs. A man has to go through the extra service, and, just when another man gets a day off, he gets an extra day; and they may get on local ac- commodation jobs, where they have to get up in the morning and make a trip or two trips in the morning, be off one day and make a trip at night. Mr. Shaw: You stated you had never been so much as 16 hours in making your run? Mr. Jackson: Oh, yes. Mr. Shaw: I thought you said you had never been as much as 16 hours in one day, and, therefore had come under the 16 hour law. Mr. Jackson : I believe, Mr. Shaw, before the 16 hour law, there was one trip that I was on an engine for 77 hours; but ■since the 16 hour law, I was not at a place where they could cut us off and get us in, or something had happened that held me out. Mr. Judson: You were on the engine 77 hours'? Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: On the cab all the time? Mr. JacksOn: Yes, sir. The only time I left the engine was to get some more stuff put in my dinner pail. That was during the freight congestion there, at Pittsburgh. Mr. Judson: Did you have no sleep during that time? Mr. Jackson: I don't suppose we would stay awake 77 hours. I couldn't do it. Mr. Willard: How much of the 77 hours were you running? Mr. Judson: Sometimes — Mr. Willard: That particular trip, do you refer to, 77 hours? 271 Mr. Jackson: I would not like to specify that particular trip. Mr. Willard : How far did you go during the 77 hours ! Mr. Jackson: But there are conditions I could state, that would be fair. I believe, that, at one time, our congestion was so bad, especially eastbound, they would move about a train length at a time; just as they got in the Altoona yard they would move about a train length at a time, and keep that up for hours, and a man would have to stay on the job. The Chairman: Those are very extraordinary and excep- tional conditions. Mr. Jackson: Exceptional conditions and years ago — nearly ten years ago. Mr. Shaw: The questions I was asking, which I had not completed, had not to do with those extraordinary conditions at all, but under ordinary conditions. Mr. Jackson: Yes. Mr. Shaw: I have been trying to find out how many hours a day you worked, and, since your overtime begins at 12 hours, I want to know how frequently, on the average, you receive 'overtime, how frequently you work more than 12 hours a day. Mr. Jackson: There are four or five months in the year, the summer months, that overtime is not frequent, but in the winter time, I might say, it is nearly every trip. Mr. Shaw: Under your arrangements, what are your rates ■of compensation for overtime? Mr. Jackson: Our rates of compensation are the same as on the New York Central, 48% cents per hour. Mir. Willard: How much? Mr. Jackson: 48% cents, $4.85 a hundred. Mr. Judson: Do they differ materially on the trunk lines? Mr Jackson: I believe there is some difference, yes. Mr. Shaw: I wanted to find out to what extent pay for overtime entered into the average compensation which you have stated was what you received. Mr. Jackson: In the summer time the overtime amounts to very little, but, in the winter time, it amounts to a great deal. Mr. Stone : I am all through. Mr. Willard : How much did you say you got for going over that eighty-nine miles? 272 Mr. Jackson: $5.82, twelve hours limit, at 48% cents an hour. Cross-Examination : Mr. Duncan: Your run is eighty -nine miles? Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And you get paid on the basis of a 100 mile run? Mr. Jackson : No ; it might be well to make an explanation there, Mr. Duncan. Prior to 1910 we were on a trip basis. Mr. Duncan : What do you mean by a trip basis 1 Mr. Jackson: The basis was so much for a certain trip. We did not have a mileage system. Mr. Duncan : In other words, the railroad company figured a price for different trips. Mr. Jackson : That is right. Mr. Duncan : And paid you on that basis f Mr. Jackson : On that basis. Mr. Duncan: Irrespective of whether it took one hour or two hours to make the trip? Mr. Jackson: That is irrespective of whether it was 100 miles or less than 100 miles, taking into consideration the work that was required to be done on that trip. Mr. Duncan: But you also received overtime after a certain number of hours ? Mr. Jackson: Twelve hours. Mr. Duncan : That was twelve hours ! Mr. Jackson: On that trip. Mr. Duncan : On that trip ? Mr. Jackson : Yes. Mr. Duncan: So that under those circumstances they were figuring 120 miles, or twelve hours, as the day, were they not? Mr. Jackson: Well, figuring on the ten mile an hour basis, that would be pay equal to 100 miles ; yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : That is what I mean. Mr. Jackson: Now, to go back of that a little piece, the middle division of the Pennsylvania Railroad is based on twelve hours. Their freight rates and their passenger rates on that 132 miles were exactly the same as ours for 89 miles, or for 114 miles to Pittsburgh. Their pasenger rates and freight rates are the 273 same. If I go to Pittsburgh, 114 miles, I get the same wages. But that was in consideration, — I believe, when Mr. Pitcairn was superintendent, I believe he took into consideration the Moun- tain Division. Mr. Duncan : The difference in the service ! Mr. Jackson : The differential for the mountain. And, I be- lieve, in a measure we carry that excess along yet on account of the mountain. While it has not been so conceded, still we have the 12 hour trip . Mr. Duncan: Would you get a minimum day's pay for a 39 'or 40 or 50 mile trip? Mr. Jackson: When we have trips of that kind, taking the words of our officials, the work and conditions pertaining to that trip have been taken into consideration in making that rate. Mr. Duncan: That is, giving for the 40 or 50 mile run the same pay as you get for the 89 miles. Mr. Jackson : For instance, we have men who make as low as 24 miles. Mr. Duncan: And getting a minimum day's pay? Mr. Jackson : No, sir ; they get 11 hours, 110 miles, but they have work enough, in connection with coke operations, coal oper- ations, and bringing trains in, setting cars in, and all that kind of thing is taken into consideration. It is not the miles you figure there at all; it is the hours. Mr. Duncan: They are figuring on the hour basis there? Mr. Jackson : The minimum day you are speaking of is only used on the Pennsylvania in irregular service. Mr. Duncan: I see. Now, you have spoken about being blocked at Altoona for some length of time. Mr. Jackson: Yes. Mr. Duncan: How often have you been blocked there? M. Jackson: Why, I couldn't estimate it. Years ago it was worse than it is now. Mr. Duncan: Due to congestion? Mr. Jackson: Due to congestion? No, sir. That is an everyday occurrence for the simple reason, Mr. Duncan, if we pull in on a track in the back of the yard there and they start over there with a 70 car train and weigh every individual car there, it takes time, and if we go back there when he whistles Taack we are there until he is over the scales. 274 Mr. Duncan: That takes time too. Mr. Jackson: You bet it does. Mr. Duncan: And how long does it take you to make this trip — about 12 hours'? Mr. Jackson : Yes, as a rule. We very often hammer along for 12 hours right along, eastbound. Mr. Duncan: And it takes you to go west how many hours? Mr. Jackson : Very often 12 hours ; sometimes overtime, and sometimes not that long. Mr. Duncan: How many trains run over that division that you speak of in one day east and west? That is, just approxi- mately. Mr. Jackson: I know of one occasion when there was or- dered out of Altoona in one hour 99 freight trains. Mr. Duncan: Going west? Mr. Jackson: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : And how many going out ojt Pittsburgh towards the east? Mr. Jackson: There are no freight trains go out of Pitts- burgh ? Mr. Duncan: None go out of Pittsburgh? Mr. Jackson : No, sir ; Pitcairn. Mr. Duncan: Well, out of Pitcairn, or out of that district, is what I mean. Mr. Jackson: Well, now, I wouldn't like to estimate out of that district ; that is too broad. Mr. Duncan : I mean over your division that we are speak- ing of. Mr. Jackson: I believe we have in our pool- Mr. Duncan : Up at the top of the mountains. Mr. Jackson: To the top of the mountain? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Jackson: I wouldn't like to go into that, because we have the C. & C. division come in there, and the South Fork men, and all those branch coal trains. Mr. Duncan : Can you tell how many would go from the top of the mountain down to Altoona-? Mr. Jackson: That would be the same thing, but I will say this: That, at the top of the mountain, there are trains there 275- ready to go down all the time, ready for inspection ; they have four additional tracks there, I believe, that they pull in on for their inspection; they inspect and start down the mountain just as fast as they can get down. And let me say this : If a man goes down there and he has a kicker— now, I guess, I will have to explain to the Board what a kicker is. If they get an unde- sirable emergency on the brake when they make the first appli- cation, it quite frequently results in tearing a train, and when the knuckle, on account of being weak, or a draw bar that is weak breaks, the congestion up there, I guess, would make a superintendent swear sometimes. But, it becomes serious im- mediately, because there are so many trains, and they are moved right along there, and they must move right along, if you are going to get anywhere. I presume if we had some of the mile- age that some of the divisions have, we would never get there. Mr. Duncan: Going back to the carpet you were speaking of. Mr. Jackson : Oh, yes. Mr. Duncan : I understood you to say, one of the difficulties with that was that you lost the opportunity to make a trip. Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Yoxi would not lose it if you were not guilty, Tould you? In other words, if you are on the carpet, and it turns out you are not guilty, they pay you for the trip! Mr. Jackson: I don't like that term about guilty there. I would rather say "adjudged guilty." Mr. Duncan: I will accept your modification, "adjudged guilty." Mr. Jackson: All right sir. Mr. Duncan: And if you are not adjudged guilty, you get paid for the trip, irrespective of whether you are guilty or not 1 ? Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : I did not understand what you mean by pool- ing your engines. I would like to get that clear. Mr. Jackson: I would be very glad to explain that to you. I might get an engine this trip and not see her again in my life time. Mr. Duncan: Might what? Mr. Jackson : I might not see that engine again in my life 276 time. The next trip I will get another engine. I have no means of knowing her condition, and, when I go there, it is up to me to find out entirely what the condition of that engine is. Had I a regular engine, I would know what condition it was in when I brought her in, and, under that system, I know nothing about it, and must be absolutely sure before I go out. Mr. Duncan : That is, Mr. Jackson, they take a certain num- ber of engines and treat it as a pool from which you engineers draw? Mr. Jackson : That is right. Mr. Duncan : When you are sent out on the line ? Mr. Jackson : That is right. Mr. Duncan : Now what is the rule, as to how you are selected to be sent out on the line 1 Mr. Jackson: I don't understand you. Mr. Duncan : Possibly I do not make myself clear. What I mean is, you have a certain number of engines that you treat as pooled engines? Mr. Jackson : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How are you men assigned to the runs which those engines make? Mr. Jackson : We have the advertising system of filling runs, bat. if an extra man is called, he has no choice; he takes those runs wherever they go. We have men who would not take that service in the mountains. Mr. Duncan: I see. So it the first in and first out? Mr. Jackson: The first in and first out, yes, sir, and the engines are first in and first out. Mr. Duncan : And, the engineer that goes out takes any en- gine that is there for use ? Mr. Jackson: Any engine at all. Mr. Duncan : That is all. The Chairman : Mr. Stone, I think we will take a recess until 2:30. (Whereupon, at 12 :40 P. M., an adjournment was taken until 2 :30 P. M.) 277 AFTER EECESS. The Chairman : Gentlemen, we will resume the session. Mr. Stone: I would like to put on as the first witness this afternoon Mr. R. E. Reed, a man in the freight service on the New York, New Haven & Hartford. R. E. Reed was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : Give your name, age and how long you have been in the service. Mr. Reed: Thirty-four years old. I have been running an engine ten years. Mr. Stone : You were promoted on the New Haven Road? Mr. Reed : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How many years did you fire % Mr. Reed: Three years and eleven months on the New Haven Road. Mr. Stone: Did you fire before that! Mr. Reed : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: On some other road? Mr. Reed : The Central Vermont. Mr. Stone : How long did you fire there. Mr. Reed : Two years and a half. Mr. Stone : What division of the New Haven Road are you on? Mr. Reed : The Shore Line. Mr. Stone : Running between what points ? Mr. Reed : Between Midway and Boston, Midway and Wor- cester, Midway and Harlem River, Midway and Hopewell, Say- brook Point to Hartford. Mr. Morrissey : Midway is New Haven, isn't it? Mr. Reed: No, sir; Midway is 56 miles east of New Haven; it is five miles east of New London. It is an outlying town. Mr. Stone: What class of service are you running in? Mr. Reed : Freight service, mostly. I am on what they have termed here as pool service, although we class it on our road as spare service, first in and first out. 278 Mr. Stone: Explain to these gentlemen whether you are called or whether you report for duty, and what your duties are. Mr. Eeed : All spare service ; we are called when they want us. We have no reg'ular time to be called. This particular ter- minal I run out of, they call us anywhere from three to four hours before we are scheduled to leave the engine house, on ac- count of our being five miles away from the terminal we are sup- posed to start from. After being called, of course wo get over there the best way we can ; we have nothing regular we can go on. Mr. Stone: How long are you called before required to leave? Mr. Eeed: Leave the terminal! Mr. Stone: Yes; how long are you called before leaving time? Mr. Eeed : Anywhere from three to four hours. Mr. Stone : What time must you report at the round house ? Mr. Eeed: Time starts thirty minutes at least before we are scheduled to leave the yard, but we are required to report to the round house in time to examine the bulletin boards of the differ- ent divisions that we are going over, and examine the work board to see the work that has been reported on the engines that we are assigned to, and also get an oil slip. We have to get our oil slips from the engine despatcher, then we go to. our engine and inspect the supplies to find out if we have the necessary supplies on the engine ; also inspect the gauge cocks and water glasses, and fire boxes, and then if we find that — Mr. Stone: (Interrupting.) Do you make a general inspec- tion of the engine, or do you have inspectors? * Mr. Eeed: As a general thing, after we find what supplies we need, we know — we have a tool checker on the New Haven and he puts the supplies on our engine and we have to hunt him up and tell him what we want. Then we make an inspection of our engine on the outside — we do not have to make any under- neath inspection — and if we find anything that should be re- paired before we leave, we see the foreman to see that it is done. We are required to draw our own oil, also fill our own grease cups, and this has to be done in time to leave the engine house before the train is scheduled to leave. Mr. Stone: Under ordinary circumstances how long does it take to do all this? 279 Mr. Eeed : Well, as a general rule about 30 minutes. Mr. Stone : And that means that you must be at the engine house at least an hour before you are scheduled to leave the yard! Mr. Eeed: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: All right, after you have made all this inspec- tion, what do you do? Mr. Eeed: Then we start our air pump, and after it has made a few strokes, we oil it and then pump up our air pressure to try our brakes, and try out our air and find if it is 0. K. for service. Then we are ready to get out of the engine house. Mr. Stone : Do you get your own engine out of the house? Mr. Eeed : Yes, sir. After we get out we have to get water, and the boiling up we do as a general thing, at the water plug. M. Stone : Is your engine coaled, or do you get coal as you go out? Mr. Eeed : Our engines are coaled in the majority of cases ; in some terminals in getting out we have to go under the coal bridge and we just simply stop and allow the coal to be put on. Mr. Stone: Then you go to the yard, do you? Mr. Eeed: Then we go to the yard. Mr. Stone : You are supposed to be on your engine 30 min- Tites before you are scheduled to leave? Mr. Eeed: No, we are supposed to be at the engine house 30 minutes before we are scheduled to leave; our rules require that we shall be on the engine ten minutes before we do leave and to test the air and find out if that is all right. Of course, when we get in the yard we back on to the train if it is ready and pump up our air to the required pressure and apply "our brakes and wait for either the inspector or one of the crew to look the train over and see what brakes are working and what are not. When he reaches the hind end, or whichever way he comes, if he is at the hind end he will give us a motion to re- lease the brakes, and if he is at the front end he will do it by word of mouth. Mr. Stone: Does he notify you if there are any defective brakes in that train? Mr. Eeed: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And how many are working? 280 Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Stone: How long a division do you run? Mr. Eeed: From Midway to Hopeville is 140 miles; from Midway to Harlem Eiver is 125 miles ; from Midway to Boston is 103 miles, and from Midway to Worcester is 77 miles; and. from Saybrook Point to Hartford is 46 miles. Mr. Stone: On that 140 mile division, what is the general - length of the trip, the average length of the trip? Mr. Eeed : Well, as a general thing going west, although we go in three different directions before we get there but mostly west, as a general thing, we are anywhere from 8 to 12 hours or 13 hours. Mr. Stone: Is the road all block signals? Mr. Eeed : Well, we have three different kinds of block sig- nals on this 140 miles. Over the Shore Line Division we have what is termed the block system ; then there is about 7 or 8 miles on the beginning of the western division that we have automatic signals ; then we go into what they call the telegraph block sys- tem, that is a block at stations, only at large stations. Mr. Stone: Does one time table cover all these different districts ? Mr. Eeed : Six time tables, we have. Mr. Stone: You carry six time tables? Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Stone: You have to be familiar with all of them? Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Stone: In those time tables are there special rules? Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Stone: What is the object' of those special rules? Mr. Eeed: Well, modifying the general rules in some cases and in some cases different speed limits and other things that the operating officials put in for our benefit, or for their benefit, for us to live up to. Mr. Stone : On this run of 140 miles that you speak of, how many signals have you in that run? Mr. Eeed : About 150. Mr. Stone : 150 signals in 140 miles ! Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Stone: Are those all for the government of the move- ment of trains? 281 Mr. Reed: Yes. Mr. Stone : In the telegraph block signals that you speak of, what do yon mean by that, in what way does it differ from the others? Mr. Reed: As I understand it, it is handled by telegraph; it is simply a block at the stations where they have them. They do not have them at every station, but at the large principal stations they have the board for each way on a pole, and, as I understand it, it is handled by the operators from one station to another. Mr. Stone: Simply used from one station to another as a block district, then? Mr. Reed: As a block district, and on approaching that we have to blow one long whistle, and, if the block is clear, it is pulled down and we have to answer it by two long and one ; short. Mr. Stone : After your arrival at the terminal, what is your duty? What do you do? Mr. Reed: After cutting off from the train, we go to the ash pit, or the track that is designated by the company, and leave our engine on, and inspect our engine outside, a thorough inspection, and then go to the engine house and make whatever reports of what work we find needs to be done on our locomo- tive, and we also have to register on the law book. Mr. Stone: On what? Mr. Reed: On the law book, as we call it, or registering book. They call it a law book on our road. Mr. Stone: To show whether you are up to the 16 hour law limit, is that what you mean by the law book? Mr. Reed: As I understand it, yes. Put down the time you were called at the opposite end of the road, and the time you were relieved at the other end; also your name and yonr fireman's. Then we have to make out a detention report of any de- tentions on the part of the engine and of the engine failures, at the end of each trip. Mr. Stone: How long does this generally take you after your arrival? Mr. Reed: Well, in some cases it takes 30 minutes. By hurrying you might do it a little quicker; and in some cases it takes longer. 282 iMr. Stone : Do you receive any pay for this ? Mr. Eeed : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Time ceases when — Mr. Eeed : When the engine stops on the ash pit or the des- ignated track for that purpose. Mr. Stone : Do all your men, running in the spare service there, run on those six or seven districts like you do! Mr. Eeed: No, sir, not all of them. Mr. Stone: Are they all supposed to be familiar with all the districts of the Shore Division? Mr. Eeed: No, sir, they are not. It is very good fortune — if they know as much as I do, they are lucky. Mr. Stone: That is in regard to the different divisions? Mr. Eeed: Different divisions. Mr. Stone: Some of them only learn one district, is that it? Mr. Eeed: Some of them only know 56 miles. We have one on our Board, T believe, who only knows 56 miles, and some of them only know the 125 mile division; some of them know the 140 and 125 mile divisions ; I don't hardly think that they have one there that knows the territory I do. Mr. Stone: You know all six districts or divisions? Mr. Eeed: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And run on any one of them? Mr. Eeed: Yes, sir. The road from Midway to Worcester is single track, and the road from Saybrook Point to Hartford is single track, and part of the 145 mile division is single track, at present, but it wont be a couple of weeks from now; they have double track nearly finished the whole length. Mr. Stone : That is all I want to ask you. Mr. Eidlitz: What is the compensation, Mr. Witness, that you get for these various runs? You say the 145 mile run is from 8 to 12 hours. What compensation do you get for that? Mr. Eeed : For the ten hour run or anything under, the over- time would be $6.51. We get $4.65; 4.65 cents per mile. Mr. Eidlitz: 4.65 cents per mile is that? Mr. Eeed: 4.6 cents, isn't it? Mr. Stone : 4.65 cents per mile, $4.65 per 100 miles. About what is your average monthly wage ? Mr. Eeed: Well, that would be hard for me to state. I 283 have drawn as high as $170 for a month's pay, and I have drawn as low as $30. Mr. Stone: Quite a wide range of difference. Mr. Reed: "Well, there are times in the depression of busi- ness when the work is very light. The Chairman: Do you know how much you have been getting on an average, by the year? Mr. Eeed: Well, I have never kept track of it for a year. I am kind of in mixed service. Part of the time I have a regu- lar job. My seniority will get me a regular job part of the time, and when I have not a regular job, I am in spare service,, but, if a seniority man displaces me, I have to go on the spare board and wait until I can bid in a job my seniority will get me. So, in the past two years I have had probably in the neighbor- hood of 75 regular jobs. Pretty, well mixed. Mr. Stone: I would not call any of them a regular job very long if I had had 75 in a year. Mr. Eeed: I do not have them. If I have one a week I shake hands with myself and feel kind of fortunate and lucky. Mr. Duncan : I did not understand the last statement about his being lucky if he got one a week. Mr. Stone: He is a spare man and fills in when there is a vacancy, and, if he gets a job and holds it for a week, he considers himself fortunate. , Mr. Duncan: That grows out of the fact you are a spare man and have not reached the seniority rights that give you an opportunity to go into the regular service? Mr. Eeed: That is right. Mr. Stone: He has hopes, if he lives long enough, he will get up where he will have one job and hold it at least a month. Mr. Duncan : If you are out over ten hours, do you get any overtime ? Mr. Reed: Yes, ten hours and thirty minutes will give you overtime. Mr. Duncan : If you run 140 miles, and it takes you twelve hours, you get, first, what your minimum day was, plus two hours overtime? Mr. Eeed : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: That is, you get 140 miles plus two hours overtime? 284 Mr. Eeed : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : How much would that give you if you ran 140 miles and it took you twelve hours to do it? Mr. Reed: That would give us two hours overtime. Mr. Duncan: How much money will it give you! Mr. Reed: That will be $6.51 and 92 cents. Mr. Duncan: $6.51 plus 92 cents? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: That would be $7.43 for that twelve hours service? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir.* Mr. Shaw: Exactly how is that overtime paid? As I un- derstand, his overtime was based at the rate of so many cents per mile, and then I understand it to be paid by the time ; that is, by hours. Mr. Worthington: The New Haven pays double overtime; that is the point. Mr. Duncan : You just explain to Mr. Shaw how that is cal- culated. Mr. Shaw: They pay for the additional mileage above 100 and they also pay for the hours. Mr. Duncan : Yes, that is right. Mr. Shaw: That is right, is it, Mr. Reed? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Can you give the Commission an idea of how many trips a month you make, like that! Mr. Reed : No, I cannot. I am liable to make this 145 mile division today, and tomorrow I may go east to Boston and the next day I may go north to Worcester. Mr. Duncan : That grows out of the fact that you are a spare man and not a regular man ? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. The Chairman: You said you were called three hours before you were required ? Mr. Reed : Yes, sir ; anywhere from three to four hours. I have been called as high as five hours before, but that might be in the day time when the caller happened to be coming my way, and he might stop in and notify me that I should go on a certain job. I might explain that this outlying terminal that we run out of is five miles from New Haven, and in this terminal 285 that we run out of, there are no houses or no tenements to be had, unless you build one yourself, consequently a majority of them live in New London and it takes anywhere from two hours or more to get over there, and you could get there in an hour if you were a little lucky, but they figure on two hours to get there, because you have got the Thames River to go across, and they do not run the boat after 12 o'clock, and you have got to catch a freight train or anything else that comes along. Of course, in the day time we have a few passenger trains across there, and, as a general rule, in the day time they figure on calling a man for a job so he can catch one of these passenger trains. That is why they have to call us so much ahead of time. Mr. Duncan: Where do you live? Mr. Eeed : I live in New London and the terminal is at Mid- way, where we run out of there. The Chairman : So, when you say you have to be called three or four hours in advance, you mean that they notify you three or four hours in advance and leave it to you about getting there? Mr. Reed: To get there the best way I can. As long as I get the engine out and get out on the time they call me, why that is all that is required of me. Mr. Stone: But, in order to do that, it makes it necessary for you to be called that far ahead of time? Mr. Reed : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: That is at your own request? Mr. Reed : I don 't hardly think you can call it that. I am ob]iged to live in New London, unless I have got money enough t > build a house over there and a man that is getting bumped around as I be, I would not want to build a house there. Mr. Duncan : Is there any schedule on your road requiring tie company to furnish the spare men with a minimum amount of work a week? Mr. Reed : There is, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: "What is the minimum amount? Mr. Reed : $25 a week. Mr. Duncan : Now, if you are out on the road, and stop to leave a car out at a point where a switch engine is employed dur- ing the day, only you arrive after working hours of the switch engine, making it necessary for you to place the car at the freight house, do you receive any extra compensation for that? 286 Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : How much do you receive ? Mr. Eeed: One hour's pay. Mr. Duncan : That is in addition to the compensation you" would otherwise earn for that run? Mr. Reed: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Now, if you stop and pick up a car that has been placed by a switch engine before completing their day's work, or, before you arrive, a passing train has set off a car ahead, of you, do you get any extra compensation for that! Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How much do you get? Mr. Reed : One hour. Mr. Duncan: And that is in addition to this pay? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Now, are there any mechanics employed at the terminals!? Suppose there is a terminal at which no me- chanics are employed, and you are obliged to ,pack a tender or engine truck box, would you receive any extra compensation for that? Mr. Reed : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : How much would you get for that ? Mr. Reed : We would get one hour 's pay. Mr. Duncan: In addition to what you would get for the run ? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: After you have arrived at the yard and cou- pled on to a train and you happen to find a car with a broken train line and the switch engine has left that part of the freight yard and you switch a car out, do you receive any extra com- pensation for that? Mr. Reed: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: You do not get anything for that? Mr. Reed : No, sir. Mr. Stone : We overlooked that is some way. Mr. Duncan : They ought to have that. Mr. Stone : Sure they ought. We overlooked that in making that schedule. Mr. Duncan : I am surprised that they overlooked that "feather-bed." 287 Mr. Stone: I think he needs a few of those extras thrown in for the rate of pay he gets there. Mr. Duncan : I think they are pretty good feather beds they have been making for themselves over there. If you start to pick up cars at a point where a switching engine is employed and, if you pick up from three tracks, what, if any, extra com- pensation do you receive? Mr. Reed: One hour's pay. Mr. Duncan : And that is in addition to this trip rate ? Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Or compensation for the trip? Mr. Eeed: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Now, after arriving at your terminal yard, if you are delayed 45 minutes before placing your engine, on the ash pit, do you receive any extra compensation? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir, one hour's extra service. Mr. Duncan: And your one hour's extra service or pay is 46y 2 cents? Mr. Reed : According to the class of service you are in. Mr. Duncan: Well, in your class of service? Mr. Reed: In freight service, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: It is 46y 2 cents in your class of service? Mr. Reed: Yes. Mr. Willard: I understood the witness to say in his class of service they were guaranteed $25.00 a week. Mr. Reed: That is the agreement we have with the com- pany, that the spare board, not every individual man, but the spare board on the divisions shall be reduced if the thing works, so that they shall pay an average of $25.00 a week. Mr. Willard: Then, I do not quite understand with that ar- rangement, how it would happen that you only earned as little as $30.00 in some months. Mr. Reed : Maybe I can explain that. Now, take for instance, the spare board I am, on, they might have 12 spare men and there might be eight of them on what we term "a hold down" on a regular man's job; he is laying off; and there might be five of those men on this 140 mile run that pays $46.00 a week. I might be on the spare board and not get one dollar a week, but my name is counted in on the average just as well as those making the $46.00 a week. 288 Mr. Willard : And you would not get the benefit of the $25.00 ■ a week guarantee? Mr. Reed: I am losing the benefit of it. Mr. Stone : That is another of those beautiful illustrations of averages. Mr. Van Hise: Would this mean that your compensation must come up to $1,200 a year, on the average? Does it mean that? $25.00 a week, you said, for four weeks, would it mean it would have to come up to $1,250? Mr. Reed: Not with every individual spare man. If another spare man makes $50.00 and I don't make but $10.00,. he is getting the benefit of it and I am losing, but my name is counted in, with the average, just as well as his, although I did not get but maybe $3.50; I am counted in as a $25.00 man just as well as the man that makes the $50.00. Mr. Duncan : Suppose you were on the spare board all the time and did not take the other run you are speaking of, then, as I understand it, the guarantee of $25,000 a week would hold- good. Mr Reed: No, they do not guarantee us $25.00 a week. Mr. Duncan: I mean, they do not guarantee the money but the runs. Mr. Reed : They guarantee, if the spare boards do not make up to $25.00 a week, they will reduce them so that they will, that is, the average of the Board. Mr. Duncan: That is the average of the board? Mr. Reed: Of the whole board. Mr. Duncan: For all the board? Mr. Reed : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : In other words, they will take and divide the jobs up so that all of you can earn $25.00 a week? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Is that right? Mr. Reed: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : No. Now, Mr. Chairman, pardon me, but I want to get this perfectly clear before the Board, and the way he puts the question is misleading. I don't think he intends it so, out it is misleading. Now, it is the inten — they do not guar- antee each man $25.00, but the average of the entire spare board is $25.00, per man, per week. When it drops below that 289 they will cut off enough men so it does average that, but it is possible for one man to earn $40.00 and another only earn $10.00 and yet the average of all is $25.00, but they do not divide up among themselves. The man that earns $10.00 only gets $10.00. Mr. Shaw: But, would not that probably work out this way; for example, when this witness stated his largest wage and his smallest wage, he stated his largest as $170 and his smallest as $30; that makes $200, and if you divide $200 you come straight back to your $25.00 a week. Mr. Stone : Eventually it equalizes itself. Mr. Shaw : Yes, it equalizes itself in that way, so I imagine, if they have that minimum applying to the group, it would usually in course of months redistribute itself so it would be .equalized for the individual. Mr. Stone : But, Mr. Shaw, in the lean weeks it is pretty; "bard to make the grocer and the butcher and the landlord and everybody else agree with that and make your wages fit it. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, as a matter of fact, does this company under its schedules pay its engineers for any service which they do not perform under this guarantee idea? Mr. Stone: Not that I know of. I never heard it at least. The Chairman: But they give them an opportunity to per- form service that gives them at least $25 a week, is that it? Mr. Stone: It is very common on some of these roads, in- stead of saying $25 a week, they say the board will be reduced when a man does not earn $165 a month. It is quite a common rule in all of our schedules to guarantee that that board will be cut when a man does not make a minimum of so much a month. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by the spare board? Mr. Stone : Extra men, who take the place of any man who lays off for any cause. Extra men, we generally call them, but on the New Haven and over in New England, they call them spare men. Mr. Duncan: Not considered regular engineers? Mr. Stone: Yes, they are regular engineers. Mr. Duncan: I do not mean that in the sense they are not engineers, I mean they are not on the regular list. Mr. Stone : Yes, they are on the list as engineers, and hold seniority on the road, but do not hold a regular job. 290 Mr. Duncan: Well, that expresses it. Mr. Judson : But these men on the spare board are not arbi- trarily selected; they are first in and first out. Mr. Stone : There are probably twelve or fifteen men on the board. Mr. Judson : I say they are not arbitrarily selected, but they are taken in rotation. Mr. Stone: Taken in rotation. Anything else, Mr. Duncan! Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Morrissey: How long has this overtime rule been in effect on the New Haven Eoad! Mr. Reed: 1886 or 1882—1886. Mr. Morrissey: Then the question of double pay; that is, pay for both miles and hours after ten hours, is not a recent concession to the New Haven employees? Mr. Eeed : No, sir. Mr. Morrissey: I take it for granted that it is an old heir- loom that has been handed down. Mr. Stone : It is one of the big apples they have had in cold storage since 1886. Mr. Duncan : You might better call it a feather bed for men to lie on. Mr. Stone, may I ask you what is this first in and first out? Is that a rule of the men or a rule of the company? Mr. Stone : Both. Mr. Morrissey: Just like in a barber shop. Mr. Stone: Waiting for a shave. The first man in is first shaved. Mr. Morrissey: And he would be first out. Mr. Stone: He probably would be out first, if the barber works as fast as the others. Mr. Judson: Has that always been the practice? Mr. Stone : No, not in the old days, before we had seniority lists and other conditions. They used to play special favorites, and when you had a soft run you would send a friend out on it. Mr. Judson: And the idea of this first in and first out? Mr. Stone : Is to give everybody a square deal. Mr. Judson : To give equality in that respect? Mr. Stone : I would like to ask you how many times did it ever happen in these runs that you have described that you got 291 all those different kinds of pay that Mr. Duncan described, an hour for setting out a car and a hour for picking up another car and an hour for switching off of three tracks"? Did that happen very often in a month ! Mr. Eeed : Very seldom. Mr. Stone: Well, after your arrival you say if you are de- li ined 45 minutes you get an hour. Suppose you were detained two hours, how much time would you get? Mr. Eeed : Two hours. Mr. Stone : It computes right ahead, does it, after the first 45 minutes ? Mr. Eeed : The first 45 minutes would give us one hour, and one hour and a half would give us two. Mr. Stone : That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone : Now, I would like to call Mr. F. A. Hallett, local freight service, on the Boston & Maine. F. A. Hallett was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: State your name, age, and how long you have been in the employ and of what company! Mr. Hallett: F. A. Hallett, Southern Division of the Bos- ton & Maine Eailroad; my age is 41 years; I have been in the service for 24 years; as an engineer 15 years. I haul what is called heavy local freight out of Boston with class 65 engine, J-ated 1340 tons. I register on duty at two o'clock in the morn- ing. I am not called. Mr. Stone: You are not called! Mr. Hallett : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Eegister out at two o'clock in the morning! ■ Mr. Hallett: Yes, sir. I would like to correct that, if the Board will permit. They changed the train before I started away, so it leaves now at 4 -.30, instead of 3 :30, and I register out at 3:00 o'clock 292 Mr. Stone: But, formerly you had been registering out at -2:00 o'clock! Mr. Hallett: Yes, sir, right along. Mr. Stone: Called yourself? Mr. Hallett : Yes, sir. I get up at 12 :00 o 'clock. Mr. Stone: All right. Describe, after you call yourself, what you do ? Mr. Hallett : I go in the engine house, sign the register book at two o'clock, compare my watch with the standard clock, ex- amine the bulletin board for notices, and supplements, sign any if there are any to sign, go to my locker and get out the oil and lanterns, and put them on the engine. We have to put all our stuff away when we get in. Then see if the necessary equip- ment is on the engine, such as flags, push stakes, and I also look to see if the firing tools are on the engine. Mir. Stone : You will have to explain what push stakes are to the Board. They have never heard of them. Mr. Hallett: A push stake is a stake we carry for cars we can't hitch on to. We put the stake on the corner of the car and the corner of the engine and give it a start off so we can hitch on to it. Quite a bit of it in a day's work. Mr. Stone: All right. Mr. Hallett: Then I try my water glass, blow it out and see that it works properly, examine my gauge cocks, examine the fire box for leaks, look the engine over and see if work has been done as reported, and then oil up. and get out. Mr. Stone: Do you have the same engine every trip? Mr. Hallett: I do as a rule. At the present time it is in the shop and I take a rounder. I also have to report whether the fireman is there or not at least 30 minutes before I am due to leave the engine house. That means practically two o'clock. Then, I oil my engine, examine the hard grease to see if it is all right, then go out of the house. Mr. Stone: Get your own engine out? Mr. Hallett: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : All right. Mr. Hallett: Also examine the sand box to see if it is full and see if the sand pipes are open. We have air sanders. Go out of the house and the fireman takes water. Then I go out to Mystic Junction, where I get my train, which is approxi- mately three-quarters of a mile or a mile. 293 Mr. Stone: Who gets you out through the yard? Do you go yourself or have a brakeman? Mr. Hallett: I go just myself with a fireman, on the main line. Then, when we have hitched on to the train, try the air brakes, and the inspector tells me how many I have working and how many not working, then, when the conductor is ready, we get a shifter to pull us out because it is impossible, in the yard we start out of, to pull our tonnage of 1340 tons. We have to take that tonnage if they can find it, an average of 35 to 45 cars. Mr. Morrissey: Explain what a shifter is. Mr. Hallett : A, shifter is a yard engine working within the confined limits of the yard, working between yard limit posts, which makes up a train and also when the trains come in they shift them out. They will take a car and come around on the head end and come around and pull me out on to the main line where I can handle that train. Mr. Stone : You cannot pull your train out of the yard your- self? Mr. Hallett: No, sir. Mr. Stone: It is too heavy? Mr. Hallett : It is too heavy. It is similar to the hump yard. Mr. Stone: Then what is the length of that run? Mr. Hallett: It is different every day. I run extra; I don't have any rights at all; only what is mentioned in the train orders that will be -a straightaway order from Mystic Junction to Lowell, which is 24 miles from Mystic Junction. Mr. Stone: How long does it take you to make that run? Mr. Hallett : The last four trips I made before I came down here 1 made 20 hours overtime; exactly five hours a day. Mr. Stone : How many hours would you have to be on duty before you made overtime? Mr. Hallett: 10 hours and 30 minutes. 30 minutes gives me one hour. Mr. Stone : Then you were on duty 1 5 hours and 30 minutes each trip, is that right? Mr. Hallett: Yes; practically that. Well, no because one day was a little longer ; one day I just cleared 16 hours. Mr. Stone: So you are working 15 hours and 30 minutes,, or have been, on these four trips, in making that 24 mile run? 294 Mr. Hailett : Yes, sir ; the first day was a day and six hours, the next day was a day and four, and the last days were a day and five each. Mr. Stone: That is heavy way freight service! Mr. Hailett: Yes. Mr. Stone: What takes up all that time? Explain to this Board what takes so much time to go that short distance? Mr. Hailett: Doing work at the different stations, keeping, out of the way of first and second class trains, and that is all. Mr. Morrissey: Nothing to do until to-morrow? Mr. Hailett: No; I have got to come back that day. Our rate of pay is different. That is, if we have a Mogul engine we get $4.30 for the first ten hours; if we get a "Hog" it builds up to $4.70. Mr. Chairman, you may not know what a "Hog" is. Mr. Stone: If he ever ran one I think he would know, wouldn't he? Mr. Hailett: You bet. You probably know what a hog means in animal nature, but a "Hog" engine is Consolidated type of engine, four pair of drivers and an engine truck. We call them ' ' Hogs. ' ' Mr. Stone: So you simply put in 15 hours and 30 minutes in unloading and loading freight and switching cars to certain points, and picking up and setting out and doing all that, in going a 24 mile run? Mr. Hailett: No, it is practically 48 miles, round trip. Mr. Stone : You make the round trip, 48 miles a day ? Mr. Hailett: Yes. Mr. Stone: Do you always get back the same day? Mr. Hailett: If we do not we come back on a passenger train. Mr. Stone : How do you come to come back on a passenger train ? Mr. Hailett: We are out too long; if we are out too long we may come under the 16 hour law. I have been relieved in Lowell, going one way, and have had overtime of two hours, and have had to come back on a passenger train. Mr. Stone: They would deadhead you back? Mr. Hailett: Yes. Mr. Stone : And put another crew on your engine ? Mr. Hailett: Yes. 295 Mr. Stone: You had been 12 hours going out? Mr. Hallett: Yes, sir. We get late a lot doing the work and get into the congested traffic, and we work on the double line and get out of the run, and then I have had to get my train out and run for water, and get it again, and start out again. Sometimes, I have to make four miles to get water, sometimes .five. Mr. Stone : What do you mean by that, that the water tanks are that far apart? Mr. Hallett: Yes. Mr. Stone: And you sometimes get out of water then be- tween tanks? Mr. Hallett: Yes. Our first water tank is 15 miles out of Boston, and then I may have to go to Wilmington to get the water, and may be I am switching around and get short of water, and I have to drop the train and go for it. I have a 4,000 gallon .tank. Mr. Stone: If you have a Consolidation engine, what rate -do you get? Mr. Hallett: $4.70. Mr. Stone: And $4.30 for the other? Mr. Hallett : For any engine other than a Consolidation. Mr. Stone: That is all. Mr. Eidlitz: What is your monthly average? Mr. Hallett : I could not tell, unless it was averaged out. Mr. Stone: Why don't you work more? Mr. Hallett : It is too much. I want to be home sometimes. As it is, I only, you might say — if I get in and get home without being held up with a grievance, I am pretty well pleased. I dodge around them. I have been home on an average of six hours a day — eight hours from the time of registering off and registering on. Mr. Eidlitz: Your average then would be $21.50 a week? Mr. Hallett: Oh it will run over that. You can figure the last four days I work and my pay for that week would be — that is 20 hours' overtime, over the ten hours and 30 minutes. Mr. Stone : What is your overtime rate ? Mr. Hallett : 57.3 cents an hour. Mr. Duncan: How much did you make that week you ran only four trips? Mr. Hallett : Well, 1 made four days and twenty hours over- time. 296 Mr. Duncan : How much would that be ? Mr. Hallett : Well, you have to figure it out. Mr. Duncan : Will you figure it ! Mr. Hallett : Take the 20 hours and multiply it by ten. Mr. Duncan : That would be 200. Mr. Hallett : Now, take $4.30 and multiply that by four days, . and you will get it. Mr. Duncan: Multiply $4.30 by four! Mr. Hallett: Yes. Mr. Stone : What do you get 1 Mr. Duncan : I get $86. Mr. Shaw : It is $17.20 straight. And how much per hour is it for the overtime? Mr. Hallett : 57.3 cents. Mr. Shaw: For 20 hours overtime, that would make his week's pay something over $28. Mr. Stone : $28.66. Mr. Hallett: Just about that. Mr. Stone : Any other questions, Mr. Duncan ? Mr. Duncan : I think that is all. I want to ask Mr. Hallett one other question. (Addressing witness) : you said you were held up because of a grievance ; what did you mean by that ! Mr. Hallett : Beg pardon. Mr. Duncan: You said you could not make a full week be- cause of grievances or something of that kind. Mr. Hallett : I am Chairman of the Local Committee. Mr. Duncan : Chairman of what ? Mr. Hallett : Local Committee. The Chairman: Local Committee of what? Your organiza- tion? Mr. Hallett : Sure. Mr. Duncan : What has that got to do with keeping you from making the trips? Mr. Hallett : I said, after I got in ; I said, after I arrived in. Mr. Stone : We do not ask the railroads to pay for that. Mr. Hallett : After I have done my work for the company, and they have paid me ; just the same as if you were at your law office and some one comes in and tackles you on a case and you have got to give them some judgment on it, if you can. , Mr. Duncan: I am conscious the joke is on me, but I did 297 not hear it; the other gentlemen are enjoying it. What I want to know is, really, Mr. Hallett, what yon mean by your work on the Grievance Committee. I want to know something about it. Mr. Stone : I think I can explain it with your permission — Mr. Duncan : I want Mr. Hallett to explain it, in connection with his statement of working four days a week. I wanted to know if the fact that you are on the Grievance Committee had anything to do with it? Mr. Hallett : No, I feel four days is as much as I could work on account of the work being so hard, switching back and forth . at the stations. Mr. Duncan : But in addition to that work, you still have u> take care of your duties on the Committee 1 ? Mr. Hallett : If I want to lay off. Mr. Duncan: If you want to lay off? Mr. Hallett : Yes. But when I get in, there is always some- body, as a rule that has a grievance. Mr. Duncan : That is when you are giving this advice — when you are leaving? Mr. Hallett : Yes. Sometimes I cannot give them any, and if I do, they don't like it. Mr. Duncan : I can see you give the same advice I frequent- ly do, too. Mr. Hallett: They will ask me questions, and, of course, I am supposed to be posted on the schedule, on our working agree- ment and they have something they have done; for instance, you asked a brother, here, if he got paid for setting a car out of his train, would it affect his train time. We do not get it, but we are supposed to, as a rule, and they will come to me with those little questions about getting his pay or being called, or anything that might happen to him on that trip. Mr. Duncan: Do they bother you very much about those things 1 Mr. Hallett : I should hope they did. Mr. Duncan: What is that? Mr. Hallett : I should hope they did. They are all the time at me, when they get a chance. Mr. Duncan : But your making your four trips a week does not prevent you from taking care of those grievances? 298 Mr. Hallett: No. Mr. Duncan: And, properly taking care of these frequent grievances the men have. That is all. (Witness excused.) George E. Hanley was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: This is one of the men who just pulls tonnage on the Baltimore & Ohio, heavy freight tonnage, where they han- dle about 4,500 or 4,600 tons. State your name, age, and where you work, on what di- vision! Mr. Hanley: George E. Hanley; engineer on the Cleveland Division of the Baltiore & Ohio Railroad. Mr. Stone : Where is your headquarters ? Mr. Hanley: Lorain,, Ohio. Ours is a single track division of 123 miles, operated under single track rules. We also run over from Holloway to Chicago Junction, 133 miles, 60 miles of which is covered by block rules or signal indication. Mr. Butterfield: You did not give us your age, Mr. Han- ley. Mr. Hanley: 47. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the service of the Baltimore & Ohio? Mr. Hanley: I was employed on the Chicago Division of the Baltimore & Ohio in 1901, I don't know just the exact date. Mr. Stone : You had been an engineer before you came there, had you? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir, my service as engineer has been about 17 years. Mr. Stone : What company were you with, before you came to the Baltimore & Ohio,? Mr. Hanley : The Illinois Central Eailroad. Our roundhouse in Lorain is located just outside the city limits, which necessi- tates about a two hours* call. Mr. Stone: What type of engine are you running? 299 Mr. Hanley: It is known as the Mikado engine, 276,000 pound engine, 24 by 32 inch cylinder. Mr. Stone: I suppose you have the usual getting ready, the same as these other men have described! Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : So there is no use to go over that in detail. Mr. Hanley: No, it is not necessary to go over it in detail; it is the same as the boys on the Baltimore & Ohio have de- scribed. Mr. Stone : How much tonnage do you handle with this en- gine? Mr. Hanley: Out of Holloway, west, we handle 4,600 tons. Mr. Stone : About how many cars is that ? Mr. Hanley: It averages about 60 cars; sometimes a little more. Mr. Stone : How many do you handle out of Lorain ? Mr. Hanley: 3,100 tons. It averages about 40 cars. Mr. Stone: What is the distance from Lorain, south? Mr. Hanley : 123 miles. Mr. Stone: How long does it generally take you to make that run? Mr. Hanley: "With the latter class of engine and our ton- nage, we are invariably fourteen hours. Mr. Stone: Does the Sixteen Hour Law ever cause you to be tied up? Mr. Hanley : Yes, sir ; very frequently. But, while we have handled our eastbound tonnage somewhat successfully^ our troubles are due principally to the excessive tonnage we handle coming west. There are more of our men released and tied up under the Sixteen Hour Law coming west than there are going east. Mr. Stone: That is, on the return trip back to Lorain? Mr. Hanley: Yes. Mr. Stone: Do you handle the same tonnage each way? Mr. Hanley: No, sir. Our tonnage east is 3,100 tons and our tonnage west is 4,600 tons, according to the grades. Mr. Stone : You are quite frequently tied up under the Six- teen Hour Law? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How long have you had this type of engine there? 300 Mr. Hanley : I think, in June, 1911, our division was stocked with this type of engine. Mr. Stone: Prior to that, what did you have? Mr. Hanley: We had what is known as the B-27 engine. That hauled about Mr. Stone: What were they, consolidation? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir; they were consolidation. Mr. Stone: What size? Mr. Hanley: They were, I think, 208,000 pound engines. Mr.- Stone : What size cylinders ? Mr. Hanley: 22 by 30. Mr. Stone: Not superheated? Mr. Hanley: No, sir; not superheated. Mr. Stone : What tonnage did you pull with them? Mr. Hanley : Out of Holloway, our tonnage, I think, was 3,600 tons. Mr. Stone: With this new engine you pull 1,000 tons more? Mr. Hanley: A thousand tons more. Mr. Stone: You say that is all single track? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir; it is operated — it is not all single track. We run over twelve miles of the New Castle Division, which is operated under block rules or signal indication. Mr. Stone : Then, how are you operated, by train orders or by block signals? Mr. Hanley: We are operated by train orders. Those are a number of orders which the engineer receives from the time he leaves Lorain until he arrives at Holloway. (Producing bundle of papers). Those were collected by an engineer on one of the trips. Mr. Stone: On one trip? Mr. ±iamey: Un one trip; yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That represents one way over the road? Mr. Hanley: That represents one way over the road. Mr. Stone : Those are orders that govern the movement of your train in regard to meeting and passing other trains. Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How many miles is that? Mr. Hanley: 123 miles from Lorain to Holloway. Mr. Stone : And you say the average trip is about fourteen hours ? 301 Mr. Hanley: Yes, along that. Oh, we sometimes make it in less than that, according to the tonnage we have, but with a full tonnage train; of course, it all depends on the movement we get ; if we get a good movement we get along a little better, too. Mr. Stone: Do you get any terminal delays before depart- ure; are you paid for it?" Mr. Hanley: No, we are not paid for it. We get twenty minutes preparatory time for our engine, to prepare our engine. Mr. Stone: You do not get that unless you run into over- time, do you? Mr. Hanley : No, sir ; we have got to have overtime before we get that. Mr. Stone: So it is not an arbitrary allowance; you have to run into overtime to get it? Mr. Hanley: Yes. Mr. Stone: After your arrival at the terminal, do you get any final terminal delay? Mr. Hanley: Not as a rule. Once in a while we are held up a little bit, but we are not delayed very much at the terminal. Mr. Stone : When, you are delayed, are you paid for it ? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir, we are paid for it. Mr. Stone : How ? Have you a final terminal — Mr. Hanley: No, not a final terminal delay; unless we are on overtime, we do not receive anything. Mr. Stone : That is the point I wanted to get at. You are allowed time after your arival on the cinder track for inspection of your engine ? Mr. Hanley: Ten minutes for inspection. Mr. Stone : In other words, your time ends ten minutes after your arival on the designated track where you leave your engine? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : That is all. Mr. Eidlitz : He has not said anything about compensation yet. Mr. Stone: I beg pardon. What pay do you get? Mr. Hanley : We get $5.00 for 100 miles, five cents a mile. Mr. Stone: Five cents a mile; $5.00 per 100 miles? Mr. Hanley: Yes. Mr. Stone: Overtime after ten hours? 302 Mr. Hanley : Overtime after twelve hours. Mr. Willard : That means on that particular division. Mr. Hanley: It is a 123 mile division, and overtime after twelve hours. Mr. Stone : But you are paid $5.00 per 100 miles or less, ten hours or less ? Mr. Hanley: Yes. Mr. Stone : How long are you away from home on these runs? When you leave Lorain, how long is it before you gen- erally get back? Mr. Hanley: I can recite an instance of where I was away an unusual length of time. The Chairman: Ordinarily. Mr. Stone: I do not mean the exception, but ordinarily? Mr. Hanley: Well, it would probably be two days before I get back home, to go to Holloway ; it invariably takes fourteen to sixteen hours to go to Holloway. and lay there ten hours, and to go home it takes about the same time. Mr. Stone: You don't always come back to Lorain! Don't you often times make a trip west to Chicago Junction ? Mr. Hanley: Yes, sir; very frequently. Mr. Stone : Then, when do you get back ? Mr. Hanley : Well, it will probably take about five to six days, when we make a trip to Chicago Junction. Mr. Stone : How much are your expenses away from home each month, have you any idea? Mr. Hanley: No, I have no exact idea. It would probably rim up to one dollar every day I am away from home. Mr. Stone : That is all. Ckoss-Examination. Mr. Duncan: about how much do you earn a month? Mr. Hanley: I never figured the average, but I invariably mark up for a twelve hours rest in Lorain. I think if you would average that up, it would not run much over $100 a month, about *1,200 a year. Mr. Duncan: About $1,200 a year, you think, is what you make? 303 Mr. Hanley: Yes. Mr. Duncan: That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone : We have one more man in heavy freight service, o'n the Mountain Division of the Baltimore & Ohio, Mr. J. W. Smith. J. W. Smith was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone: State your name, age, and how long you have worked. Mr. Smith : J. W. Smith. Mr. Stone: What division are you with? Mr. Smith: The west end of the Cumberland Division. Mr. Stone: The west district of the Cumberland Division of the B. & 0.? Mr. Smith: Yes. Mr. Stone: How long have you been employed with the Baltimore & Ohio Company'? Mr. Smith: Since 1892. Mr. Stone: How old are you? Mr. Smith: Forty-six. Mr. Stone: Were you fireman or promoted? Mr. Smith: Promoted. Mr. Stone: How long did you fire? Mr. Smith : I was promoted in 1900 and I fired about eight years. Mr. Stone: What is the length of your division? Mr. Smith: 103 miles. Mr. Stone: From where? Mr. Smith: From Cumberland to Grafton, West Virginia, over the mountains. Mr. Stone: That is over the mountains? Mr. Smith: Yes. Mr. Stone: That is the heaviest grade on the Baltimore & Ohio, is it not? 304 Mr. Smith: So far as I know, it is, for a long grade. Mr. Stone: What class of engine are yon running? Mr. Smith: We are running B-19-A on our division. Mr. Stone: What are they? Mr. Smith: Mother Hubbards. Mr. Stone : Well, what type of engine is she, consolidation ? Mr. Smith: Consolidated engine; yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What size? Mr. Smith: I guess she carries about Mr. Stone : What cylinder ? Mr. Smith: 21 by 30. Mr. Stone: Consolidation engine, 21 by 30? Mr. Smith: I "think her weight is between 171,000 and 173,000 pounds. Mr. Stone: I might add, for the benefit of the Board, that there are about as many different names for the designation of these types of engines as there are different roads; almost every road has a nickname for these engines. This particular type of engine on the Baltimore & Ohio is known as the Mother Hubbard. What tonnage do you handle? Mr. Smith: We haul west with one engine, until we strike the mountain, 1,275 tons. Mr. Stone : Then, do you have a helper up the mountain ? Mr. Smith: We get two with 1,275 tons; one ahead and one pusher. Mr. Stone: Do I understand it takes three engines to pull 1,275 tons up the grade over the mountain? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What is the length of that grade ? Mr. Smith : 17 miles. Mr. Stone : How long does it generally take you to make the trip ? Mr. Smith: The round trip over the division! Mr. Stone : Going over the division one way. Mr. Smith: It varies. Under favorable circumstances we can make it in 24 to 30 hours. Mr. Stone : How long does it take you to make that 103 miles division one way? Mr. Smith: Under favorable conditions west, I believe we 305 ran make it in probably 10 hours ; it has got to be pretty good at that. We generally run into a little overtime each trip. Mr. Stone : Are you ever tied up under the 16 hour law? Mr. Smith : Not lately, westbound ; eastbound, we are tied up -occasionally. We are not tied up, either; we are relieved. Mr. Stone : They send a crew out to relieve you ? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : But you work the full 16 hour limit? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And they send a crew to relieve you if you can- not get in? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone,: Do you have any trouble handling your trains down that heavy grade, going east? Mr. Smith : Some of them have had trouble. I never have had any trouble. Mr. Stone : You have had some runaways there on the moun- tains, have you not? Mr. Smith: Several years ago we had two bad ones; there were five killed in one wreck and one or two in the other. I don't know which. Mr. Stone : You have never had a runaway, yourself? Mr. Smith : No, sir. Mr. Stone: What is the grade there? Mr. Smith: As near as I can find out, it runs about 2 per cent., or maybe a little better ; 119 feet to the mile, they tell me. Mr. Stone: 119 feet to the mile, for 17 miles? Mr. Smith : I think it will average about that ; that, is what I have been told. Mr. Willard : As a matter of accuracy, I will say for his in- formation, it is 117 feet, as long as it is going in the record. Mr. Stone: 117 feet? Mr. Willard: It is practically that. Mr. Stone: That is the average, Mr. Willard. Mr. Willard: Yes; for 17 miles. Mr. Stone : Do you make any special test of your air at the top of the hill before starting down? Mr. Smith: Yes; we are required to make a test of the brakes at the top of the hill before we leave. We also have to stand there until the retainers are all turned up on the train. 306 As soon as we get the train under way the brakemen begin their work. Mr. Stone : You work the hand brakes besides ? Mr. Smith : Yes, sir. When we get a train that is not hold- ing we have every brake on the train down. Mr. Stone: Who is held responsible for the speed of the train down the hill? Mr. Smith: As a general thing the engineer is, but of late they haven't been saying very much to us. Mr. Stone : You have not had any trouble on the hill lately, have you? Mr. Smith : What I mean by that is this : if we exceed our speed a little they are very lenient with us, and they haven't been saying very much, in fact they haven't said anything. Mr. Stone: You have the usual duties, the other men have described, to perform before departure and after arrival in the care and inspection of your engine? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You get the same wage as Mr. Hanley? Mr. Smith : No ; we get $4.85 ; he runs a big engine ; he gets a high rate. Mr. Stone: You get $4.85? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: For 100 miles? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: How many miles is the division you run over? Mr. Smith : We get paid for 103. Mr. Willard: How many miles do you run? Mr. Smith: From Cumberland to Grafton, W. Va. Mr. Willard: How far is that? Mr. Smith: 103 miles. Mr. Willard: You usually run from Keyser, do you not? Mr. Smith: They have a pool that runs out of Keyser. Mir. Willard: They get the same wages, do they not? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: How many miles is that? Mr. Smith: 78. Mr. Willard: They get the $4.85? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr Willard : And the majority of them all run from Keyser. 307 Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: Just to Keyser? Mr. Smith : Yes, sir. I think the pool I am working in we have eleven slow freight crews and five fast freight crews, so we do considerable fast freight work out of there. Mr. Willard : You get the same wages for that that they do on the other? Mr. Smith : Yes, sir ; the most of our work is time freight. We fill out with coal coming east. Mr. Stone: That is all I want to ask. Mr. Duncan: Will you give us what your monthly wage is approximately? M|r. Smith: Well, I have been held down a little bit there on account of a great number of crews at that place. They kind of had the list crowded. I think that my monthly average will run me around 23 days ; I am not sure about it, but that is about as near as I can come to it. Mr. Duncan: How much money would that mean per month? Mr. Smith: It would amount to $117, $118 or $120, some- where around that; I don't know. Mr. Duncan: That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Willard : I would like to say, for the information of th6 other members of the Board that, of course, the moving of busi- ness on a railroad is quite an uncertain thing. , The company itself has no control over the volume of the business, and the business varies largely, particularly in the vicinity that he has just referred to, because of strikes or no strikes in the coal regions, and, it so happens, after having equipped the system with a sufficient number of men to handle the maximum business, it frequently occurs that there is a cessation of business and a surplus of men, and it comes round, as he says, that, at times, there are too many men or, rather, too little business, just as you want to put it. Mr. Stone: I will put on William Muhr, of the New York Central. 308 William H. Mtjhr was called as a witness and testified as follows : ;Mr. Stone : This is a man in the freight service, not running a Mallet, but one of the heavy Consolidation engines. State your name and age. Mr. Muhr : William Muhr, 36 years old. Mjr. Stone : What division of the New York Central are you employed on! Mr. Muhr: Western Division. , Mr. Stone: Eunning between where? Mr. Muhr: East Syracuse, or what is known as De Witt, and Buffalo, or Suspension Bridge, or Gardenville. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the service of the New York Central? Mr. Mjuhr: Since January 19th, 1898. Mr. Stone: Were you hired or promoted? Mr. Muhr: I was promoted. Mr. Stone: As an engineer! Mr. Mtuhr: As a fireman. Mr. Stone: How long did you fire for the New York Cen- tral? Mr. Muhr : Well, I put in about eight years and two months. Mr. Stone: What type of engine are you running? Mr. Muhr : Consolidated engine. Mr. Stone: One of their standards, 23 by 32, is that what they are? Mr. Muhr: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How many tons is your rating? Mr. Muhr: Eastbound it is either 38 or 40 hundred tons. Mr. Stone: What is it westbound? Mr. Muhr: Well, we go mostly by car limit, 110 cars, or 2600 tons, I think. Mr. Stone: 110 cars or 2600 tons? Mr. Muhr: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You have a limit that you cannot handle over 110 cars? Mr. Muhr: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Why is that? M!r. Muhr: Well, it seems to be the number of cars that they see fit to draw for a train. 309 Mr. Stone: Well, isn't it the fact that is all the number of cars that they can get in between their electric blocks? Mr. Muhr: Just about, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What is the length of a train of 110 cars ? Mr. Muhr: Well, I could not say; very nearly a mile, I should judge. M*. Stone: That is a four track road there, is it not? Mr. Muhr: Yes. Mr. Stone: How long does it generally take you to make this run, average time, I mean? Mr. Muhr: Very close to 15 hours. That is, including from the time of registering until we arrive at the other terminal. Mr. Stone: Are you ever tied up under the law on that division? M[r. Muhr: Sometimes. Mr. Stone: Has it ever happened with you? Mr. Muhr: It has, but not very lately. The Chairman: What is the object of these questions, Mr. Stone? "Are you tied up under the law?" I do not quite see the pertinency of it. Mr. Stone : I am trying to see whether he has been on duty the full 16 hours or not, and failed to get in the actual period that they can work him, as limited by the law. The Chairman : Yes, I see. Mir. Stone: How do you explain this slow movement, with the four tracks, that it takes you so many hours to get over the road? Mr. Muhr: Heavy trains, and some detention from other heavy trains. Mr. Duncan: I don't think he has told us how far it is. Mr. Muhr: From De Witt to the Bridge is 160 miles; to Buffalo, 152 miles, to Gardenville, 148 miles. Mr. Stone : About how much is your average monthly wage ? Mr. Muhr: Well, I don't know as 1 could say exactly; it varies. l Mr. Stone : The average I mean, in a general way. Mr. Muhr: Well, I might say, in following very close, it might average $75 in two weeks. Mr. Stone: Do you have a semi-monthly pay day on the. New York Central? 310 Mr. Muhr : Yes. * Mr. Stone : That would be $150 a month, or somewhere near that? Mr. Muhr: About that. Mr. Stone: Of course, you have the usual duties to perform before and after arrival? Mr. Muhr : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do you have much terminal detention there be- fore departure and after arrival? Mr. Muhr: Well, quite a little: We have 50 minutes from the time we register until we are due to leave the yard. Of course, we have our usual work to go through, and then we have to double our train around, 110 cars around, the tracks are not long enough to hold 110 cars, and that takes some time, also pump up the air and test the air and be ready to leave. Mr. Stone : Do you have much delay after arrival in getting' rid of your engine; t Mr. Muhr: Well, sometimes I do, and then, at other times, we do better. We have about three miles from Minoa to bring back to the engine house at De Witt. We have to deliver the train there and sometimes we get a detention out of the yard, sometimes as much as an hour, that is when we are in good working condition. Mr. Stone: You have the same engine every trip? Mr. Muhr: I do, generally. Mr. Duncan: No questions. Mr. Stone : We have one more man we would like to put on in regard to freight service, and that is Mr. F. I. Singleton, of Newark, Ohio, on the Baltimore & Ohio. F. I. Singleton was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone: State your name, age, how long you have been in the service, and how old you are? Mr. Singleton: 44 years old, and I have been in the ser- vice of the B. & O. 12 years. I was a hired man to the Balti- more & Ohio, hired from the Pennsylvania. I fired on the Penn- 311 sylvania seven years and ran there three years, and it makes me 15 years service as engineer. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by hired "man." Mr. Stone: Employed. Mr. Singleton: Fifteen years' service as engineer, 7 years as fireman. I am on the Newark Division of the Baltimore & Ohio, running out of Newark, Ohio. Now, we have out of there four divisions that we run over. On the division northj called the Lake Erie Division, we have 116 miles, Newark to Sandusky. All our trains do not go to Sandusky; the majority of them stop at Chicago Junction; that makes 89 miles. And then, on the Cincinnati Division, we have 145 miles in freight and there are 33 miles from Newark to Columbus double tracked, 71 miles of single track, and there is 11 miles of double track and 5 miles of single track, and 24 miles aghin of double track. That is on the Cincinnati Division. On the division east, the C. & 0. Division, that is a single track, that is 105 miles for freight and 109 miles for passenger. Then we have another division of 43 miles down to the coal mines and back, making 86 miles, but we have a hill that we always double, and we figure that as 100 miles. Of course, in getting our engines ready we have the same duties to perform as the rest of the men on the differ- ent roads. We have 20 minutes preparatory time and 10 min- utes terminal time to inspect the engine, after we get in, but, of course, if we do not make the overtime, that does not count. That just goes on our overtime basis. Mr. Stone: What type of ^engine are you running? Mr. Singleton : E. 27-B, and E. 27, 2,500 and 2,600. Mr. Stone: What size cylinder, what type of engine? Mr. Singleton : 22 by 30, I think. Mr. Stone: Consolidation? Mr. Singleton: Yes. Mr. Stone: What tonnage do you pull with those? Mr. Singleton: Of course, it differs according to the differ- ent tonnage on different divisions. East from Newark to Ben- wood, we pull 1,700 to.ns. West we pull 2,020, adjusted. North we haul 2,450 tons, and on the Cincinnati Division we haul 1.500 tons out of Newark, but, I think, we fill out there to 1,700 tons. I am not positive about that, now. 312 Mr. Stone : On this strip east to Benwood, what is the aver- age time of the trip ? Mr. Singleton: Well, on the eastern trip, going east we never make the trip hardly in less than from 10 to 12 hours, and that depends altogether on the freight. That is, the train on the eastward trip is composed largely of empties for the mines, and, of course, we have to distribute those at the mines, and, if we do get a train of those empties, probably 70, — 60 or 70, — I have had as high as 75 empties east, — and they are to be distributed at the different mines and quite often we get the full limit in distributing those cars to the different mines, — 14 or 15 and maybe 16 hours. Mr. Stone: Has the tonnage of these engines been increased within the past two years? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir, it has been increased. Two years- ago they were supposed to haul the same, 2,200 tons. Two years ago or three years ago we were hauling 2,200 tons, and now we are hauling 2,450 tons, north. Mr. Stone: With the same engines? Mr. Singleton: Yes. Mr. Stone: Have any changes been made in the engines in the meantime, — changed to superheaters or anything like that? Mr. Singleton : No, sir, the same engines. Mr. Stone : Can you make as much money per month or day as formerly? Mr. Singleton: Well, no, you cannot. Now, take it west- bound, out of Chicago Junction, we are running double headers. What I mean, by that is, we haul a double train a great deal of the time, a double train from Chicago Junction to Alta, and there the helper cuts out and goes back. We haul 2,800 tons from Chicago Junction, now, with the two engines, to Alta. There the helper cuts out and goes back and reduces the through train to 1,900 tons. Well, now, while this has been followed ■ and always was followed some, it has never been practised as much as it has in the last couple of years. Two years ago, in hauling a single train out of Chicago Junction for Alta, we hauled 1,300 tons, and, of course, after we got to the top of Alta, why, then it was all easy sailing from there on into Newark. The Chairman: When you say 1,300 tons, how many cars do you mean? 313 Mr. Singleton: Sir? The Chairman: When you say 1,300 tons, how many cars do you mean? Mr. Singleton : Oh, that would all depend on the loads with which the cars were loaded. We do not speak of cars anymore; pretty nearly everything now is tonnage, and we fill out to a ■certain tonnage. The engines are rated as to tonnage, and we fill out to the tonnage. Of course now hauling a 1,900 ton freight from Alta to Newark, that makes quite a difference in our train, because by hauling a lot of empties, it makes our train run up from 65 to 75 empties from Alta in, and maybe a load mixed in occasionally, and that makes a long train to handle and a harder train to handle, and the great trouble in handling a long train is it is so much harder to handle than a short train, there is the handling of the air and the danger in breaking the train in two, or pulling the drawbars, and so forth. That requires more skill in the handling of a long train, that way, than in handling a short train. We figure that if we get a short train of 25 or 30 cars and we do not have to pay any attention, very much, because you can release the air and stop at almost any time, while with a long train it is impossble to release that, you must go on until you stop, and use good judgment in handling to avoid pulling out of drawbars or breaking the train. Mr. Stone: Have you a standing order on your road that after the speed has been reduced to fifteen miles an hour on these heavy freight trains, you must not release your air until you start? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What is your average wage; can you give an average, about? Mr. Singleton: Well, now, that fluctuates a great deal, be- cause we are a pool road and we have been carrying too many men in the pool. We have the pool crews and the pool engines. We may never get the same engine twice in a month or two months. We may have an engine to-day and not see her again for a month, and the next time we may see her she may be down on the second division or the Chicago division. We cannot tell you anything about that. And, I don't suppose our averages have been in the last — well, I will say four months — I don't sup- 314 pose we have averaged more than 25 days a month. I don't suppose any of the pool crews have made more than 25 days a month. Mr. Stone : Do you mean 2,500 miles a month! Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir, 2,500 miles a month. Mr. Stone: What is your rate? Mr. Singleton : $4.85. ■ Mr. Stone: When was that last increase? Mr. Singleton : In wages ? Mr. Stone: In wages. Mr. Singleton: I don't just remember now. I cannot say. We did get $4.70, and then we got the 15 cents of an increase. It may be two years ago ; I am not positive when. The Chairman : 1910. Mr. Stone: July 1st, 1911, if you will pardon me, for the record. Mr. Singleton: Well I was not positive. Mr. Stone : They got $4.70 prior to that, and an increase to $4.85. Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir, $4.85 and overtime after ten hours. Mr. Duncan: What is your highest wage? Mr. Singleton: Our highest pay? Mr. Duncan: In a month, say. Mr. Singleton : Well, I think Mr. Duncan : I want to know how much money you are get- ding rather than days. Mr. Singleton: Just prior to the coal strike, I think, where we were rushed to our full limit and everybody working to their limit, I think -the runs were paying about $170 to $175 ; that is, 'everybody working just as hard as we could work. We were ge't- tng the eight hours invariably at each end of the road, but — Mr. Stone: That is for rest, you mean? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir, for rest. Then we were getting ready for the coal strike and everything was rushed, and we were hauling coal. But, our great trouble in our making wages, that we have at the present time, is our laying over at outside terminals. We get pretty bad lay overs in Benwood and pretty bad lay overs at Chicago Junction. Mr. Stone: How many hours do you call a bad lay over? Mr. Singleton : Well, when it comes to 20 or 24 hours, it is too long, and we get 20 to 24, and sometimes as high as 30 hours. 315 Mr. Van Hise: That is because, you say, your pool is too- big? Mr. Singleton: No, I don't think that would have anything to do with it. ■ Mr. Duncan : What has been your average in the past four months ? Mr. Singleton : In the past four months ? Mr. Duncan : Yes, the average monthly wage. Mr. Singleton: "From $110 to $120, or $125. Mr. Duncan : And, it has been low the last few months, you say, because it is slack business! x Mr. Singleton : A little slack. Mr. Duncan : And, too many men in the pool. Mr. Singleton : A little slack. Mr. Duncan : You are, of course, familiar with the rules of the Bal'tomore & Ohio. Mr. Singleton: Supposed to be. Mr. Duncan : Let me read you Eule 14 and ask you if it is the rule : "Engineers in through freight service shall be allowed to make a minimum of 3,000 miles per month. When business falls off, men shall be reduced, beginning with the youngest engineer in this class. The company to be notified by the engineers com- mittee when this is necessary." That is the rule, is it not? Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : In force on your road ? Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir ; that is the rule on our railroad. Mr. Stone : That rule is not always enforced through periods of depression, is it? Mr. Singleton : No, sir. They practice the Golden Eule to> a great extent. Mr. Judson : Do you mean by that it is ignored by both the company and the engineers? Mr. Stone: Not exactly. Are you asking me the question? Mr. Singleton: Do you want me to answer that question? Mr. Judson : Yes. Mr. Singleton: Not exactly ignored, no; but not enforced; not always enforced. Mr. Duncan : That is, the committee does not enforce it. 316 Mr. Singleton: Not always enforced. Mr. Stone: I would like to add an explanation, Mr. Chair- man. The Chairman: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Oftentimes, in these periods of temporary de- pression, we try to keep the men and do not cut the list or cut the number, for just a few days, living in the hope that perhaps next week we will have plenty of business. So, while we have that rule in many of these schedules it is not always enforced to the letter. Mr. Willard : I might say in that connection, Mr. Chairman : that no reflection should rest upon the men. If it is not enforced it is of mutual advantage to the company and the men, so that, in periods of slack business they will not be laid off, and, I imagine, it works out to the mutual satisfaction. Mr. Singleton: On both sides. Mr. Stone: Is that all Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: Do you want to put another man on to-night, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman: How many more witnesses have you? Mr. Stone : Four, five or six ; I am through with the freight service. I want to put on some electric men now, and we have some yard men yet, and we have a transfer man, belt line. The Chairman: I think, Mr. Stone, we will rest here until tomorrow morning at 10:30. (Whereupon, at 4:27 P. M. the session was adjourned to July 19th, 1912, at 10:30 o'clock A. M.) 317 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 19th, 1912. 10:30 A. M. The Chairman : We will begin the session now. For the convenience of the many gentlemen who are here attending these meetings, I would state that the Commission has decided that this afternoon session will close at four o 'clock and then we will adjourn until Monday morning at 10 :30 o 'clock. Now, Mr. Stone, will you continue. Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz has made a request that we recall Mr. Singleton. He desires to ask him a few ques- tions. Mr. Singleton, will you please take the stand, as Mr. Eid- litz desires that you clear up something that he failed to un- derstand yesterday in your statement. F. I. Singleton was recalled as a witness, and testified fur- ther as follows: Mr. Eidlitz: With your permission, M)r. Chairman? The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Eidlitz: Mr. Singleton, in your testimony yesterday you stated that you were out on one run for 30 hours. Do you remember that? Mr. Singleton: Well, I beg your pardon. Mr. Eidlitz: What I would like to have you do, sir, is to ■tell this Commission just how that time is spent and for how much of it you are remunerated? Mr. Stone : If I might be pardoned, before he replies, you will find the statement on the bottom of page 314 of yesterday's stenographic notes. Mr. Judson: In the printed copy? Mr. Stone: In the printed copy, yes, sir. Mr. Singleton : Now, begging the pardon of the Board, if I was misunderstood there, or if I did mis-state. I should have said that we were held at outlying terminals from 20, 24 and 30 hours, and have been held as high as 36 hours ; but will further .state that on the Cincinnati runs I have been relieved twice on the line of road in making one trip. I have been relieved for eight hours rest at Sabina and have been relieved again at Loveland, taking our eight hours rest at Sabina, and at Love- 318 land, after 16 hours more continuous service, we have been deadheaded in. Mr. Eidlitz : Well, now would you mind just starting out on your trip, coming to a place where you are tied up for hour limits, how long you put in at rest and what you get paid for, in this transition period, to the time when you get hack home, when you have had one of those unusual detentions. Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: So we will understand exactly what it means. Mr. Singleton: Now, on leaving Newark on the Cincinnati runs, from Newark to Columbus, is double track. Now, in get- ting into and out of Columbus has been the cause of our chief delays on those runs. We have laid as high as four and five hours getting through Columbus after being ready to move. When we will pull into Columbus our engine is cut off and we go down to the roundhouse and get a tank of water, tben our overloads — or, they fill us out in Columbus more than we haul over the C. & N. Division; they put on extra loads in Colum- bus. The yard engine puts those on while we go down to get water. Then, we back up on our train. Well, we have to cross the switches leading into the Union station at Columbus, to get, again, on our main track and continue our run, and we have been known to lay there as high as three and four hours waiting to get across those switches. That is the only delay we could account for and that is all they told us it was for; to get across those switches. Of course, the B. & 0. and the Big Four use that joint piece of track there, and that has been a cause of our delay in getting through there, and then, on this one particular trip I re- fer to, and it has been done quite often, we were tied up at Sabina on the Sixteen Hour Law hours, and took ten hours rest ; there was a hostler sent out to watch the engine, and he watched the engine while we all went back to the caboose and took our ten hours rest ; then we proceeded on our journey. Mr. Judson: Went back to the caboose — do you mean the caboose on the train? Mr. Singleton : On the train, yes, sir. Then on figuring that we had sixteen hours to make in from Sabina to Cincinnati, or the stockyards, why, there was pick-up work and so forth put on these crews, of course, and doing work at stations, and so 319 forth, and the 16 hours caught us again at Loveland, owing to congested travel and heavy trains and work, and we were re- lieved again, there at Loveland. That is 24 miles this side of Cincinnati, or before we reach the home terminal. But we were relieved there by another crew, and they took our train in and we dead-headed in to the stock yards. While on our Newark division we are somtives relieved, but not very often, but in the especially cold winter weather with the trains we haul, we are relieved quite often, quite often in the winter weather, and at outlying terminals. Now, from Benwood. we use helpers for 23 miles out of Benwood. Quite often us road crews are called to help up this hill. Now, if I am second out, the man ahead of me being first out, he is entitled to the through train ; I being second out, I am entitled to help him to the top of the hill ; then 1 return to Benwood. Perhaps I lay there for 14, 16, 20 hours again. Maybe it comes my time to make a second help up that hill, and I make the second help up that hill, go back and lay again. Well, now, we have an agreement among ourselves that after making the help from Benwood, we take first out after eight hours, so that does away with this long delay in Benwood. Bur, in Chicago Junction, in running the double trains out of there we are entitled to make two helps out of there before we are eligible to go back home. Maybe I will help this first man to Alta, I will turn and go back to Chicago Junction. I am entitled to make another help before I am entitled to go home. I may laj 20 or 24 hours. I have laid in Chicago Junction and caught a second help to Alta, and went back to Chicago Junction again ;.nd laid again, but my time then has caught a third help, but according to our agreement, we are only entitled to make two- helps away from home. Then, they will run me around the man that is first out, and run me home to the home terminal and have me help him. Mr. Eidlitz : What was the remuneration that the company paid you for a condition of that kind — when you went out for sixr teen hours you got your 100 miles, or you got ten hours and you got overtime for the six hours, did you? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz : And then you rested out for ten hours? 320 Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz : And then you started in again, as you related., and again got your pay for ten hours and your overtime for six, when you got on the second time ? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz : And then, you were deadheaded home on your own time? Mr. Singleton: No. Mr. Eidlitz: On their time! Mr. Singleton : On their time. The company paid me from the time I left Sabina until I reached the Stock Yards. Sixteen tours of this time I worked. The rest of the time I deadheaded in, but the company paid me from the time I left until I reached the Stock Yards. This is at the rate of $4.85 per 100 miles. Mr. Van Hise : In that case it would be 48.5 cents per hour? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir; 48^2 cents an hour. Mr. Judson: You make a return on the time card of the number of hours ? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mi - . Judson: Do you specify on that card the kind of ser- vice it was? Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : Who is that handed to ? Mr. Singleton : That is turned in to our roundhouse fore- man at the completion of our trip. Mr. Judson : And does he make up the payrolls from those! Mr. Singleton : He simply signs his name to that time slip and it is sent to our timekeeper, and he makes out the payrolls. Mr. Judson : But, the cards are made up on the statements of the engineers? Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: And they tire sent in and the pay roll is made up from them? Mr. Singleton : The pay roll is made up from the time slips, yes, sir. The Chairman : You have used the expression several times, "helper." Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir. The Chairman : What do you mean by that ? Mr. Singleton : Assisting the first train. 321 The Chairman: How? By another engine, with an addi- tional engine ? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir: pushing or pulling. At Chicago-- Junction we pull to North Side and get behind the train and push to the top of the hill. Out of Benwood, we push all the way from Benwood to the top of Bethesda Hill, 23 miles. Mr. Judson : Who verifies these time cards, if there is any question about them, the station master! Mr. Singleton: Well, I don't know how there could be any question about them. The train sheet in the despatcher's office shows this trip. Mr. Judson : That is all recorded there? Mr. Singleton : That is all recorded there. The train sheet shows the time of this train from the time she leaves the initial station until she arrives at destination. Mr. Judson : And the train despatcher has charge of that? Mr. Singleton : Yes, sir. Those train sheets are preserved^ and they can be seen at any time. Mr. Eidlitz: In the draft of the engineers' agreement for the new agreement with the roads, it says "Engineers will be paid at overtime rate for all time over fifteen hours held at other ihan their home terminals." Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: That is one of these conditions that we were just discussing, isn't it? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz : Well, just where does that differ — your propo- sition differ from the conditions that obtain today? Mr. Singleton : The condition that is in vogue today is that if I go to Benwood — I speak of these because they are on my run, my home terminals — if go to Benwood and lay there, waiting for freight, waiting for crews, which is sometimes the case, most gen- erally waiting for freight or power, I have laid there as high as thirty hours waiting to get out. Mr. Eidlitz: Without pay? Mr. Singleton: Without pay; yes, sir. Without pay. All this time I am laying there, of course, I have to board — I have got to eat, and that is what we referred to, in that. Mr. Judson : You pay your own expenses while you are- there ? Mr. Singleton: Yes, indeed. Mr. Judson : Board and lodging? Mr. Singleton : Yes, indeed, and I will say that I never carry .any lunch from home. I used to, but I do not think cold lunches' agree with me — I know they do not, and I never feel as well as when I can run in and get a bite of hot food, and I think that helps a man in all hours of the night and all kinds of weather, jand that is where our expense runs up, away from home, in get- ting something to eat, in lying at these terminals and on the line of road, where we have to put in twelve to fourteen hours, making one trip, one way, and the best that I can do, not carrying any lunch with me, my board generally, most always, averages about :fifteen dollars a month, away from home. The Chairman: How much do your wages average a month? Mr. Singleton: Well, I don't know. That is a pretty hard proposition to answer. I suppose, if we follow our engines all the time, that is, follow our turns all the time, I suppose the turns will average, well, $130. Mr. Judson : A month ? Mr. Singleton : Yes. They average that for the year. Mr. Judson : And you have to pay $15 a month out of that for board? Mr. Singleton: At least $15 a month out of that, I figure, on board, outside. I always lay out $15 every month for my board, and it invariably takes it all. Mr. Duncan: Just one question, Mr. Singleton. When did this Sabina case, to which you refer, happen? Mr. Singleton: Well, it has probably been a year and a h;i]f ago. Mr. Duncan: And abnormal conditions were existing on tlie Southwestern at that time, were they not? Mr. Singleton: Well, I cannot see where they were or where they should be. Mr. Duncan: Have you had any such case since then? Mr. Singleton: Well, they get relieved, yes, sir, pretty nearly every trip. Mr. Duncan: Have you had any such case as the Sabina -caso since then? Mr. Singleton: No, sir, not relieved twice. Mr. Duncan : Does not the company maintain rest rooms at, Benwood ? Mr. Singleton: No, sir. Mr, Duncan: They do not? Mr. Singleton: They have got some rest cars there, if any- body wants to sleep in them. Mr. Duncan : You never sleep in them ? Mr. Singleton: No, sir. Mr. Judson: What is a rest car? Mr. Singleton: They have got some old cars set out there with bunks in them. We call them rest cars. In the car, one car they have there with a stove in, and if you want to carry your raw material, you can cook in there. I don't know just how many other cars there are with bunks in them. I do not stay down there. The Chairman: Are they regular freight cars, old freight •cars ? Mr. Singleton: I believe that they are. I am not sure, I never go there and I don 't stay there at all. Mr. Duncan: Is it not a fact they are fitted up for that purpose? Mr. Singleton: Well, if you want to stay in them, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is there anything else in them besides bunks? Mr. Singleton : Is that a fair question ? Mr. Stone : Yes, that is a fair question or I would not have asked it. Mr. Singleton: Yes, there are other things in them besides bunks. The Chairman: Spelled pretty much the same way? Mr. Duncan: Certainly; the railroad company did not bring them in, did it ? Mr. Singleton: I don't suppose they did. I don't have any idea they did, no, sir. Mr. Duncan: Are there any rest rooms at the stock yards? Mr. Singleton : They have some cars there now, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Are there any rest rooms at Chicago Junc- tion? Mr. Singleton: No, sir. There is a Y. M. C. A. there, but of course — 324 Mr. Duncan: That is the railroad Y. M. C. A.? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir, but, of course, we pay for our bed .and lodging there. Mr. Judson: Is that conducted at the expense of the rail- road f Mr. Singleton : I cannot tell. Mr. Willard: How much do you pay at Chicago Junction? Mr. Singleton : 10 cents for a bed. You have to belong to the Y. M. C. A. and pay ten cents for a bed. If you do not belong, it is a quarter for a bed. Mr. Stone : What is the yearly dues ? Mr. Singleton : $5.00 a year. Mr. Judson : Well, that is maintained partly at the expense of the railroad for the accomodation of the men, is it not? Mr. Singleton: I expect that it is. I think they donate a certain sum every year to help keep up the Y. M. C. A. at' Chicago Junction. That is what I have understood, although I do not board at the Y. M. C. A. ; I have a private boarding house there. Mr. Judson : The quarters there are very comfortable, are they not? Mr. Singleton: They are nice, yes. sir. I was never in the place but once, but I have, ever since I have been with the B. & 0., boarded with one house up there, and it is a private house that we pay 15 cents for our bed there and 25 cents for our meals, and at the Y. M. C. A. you pay $5.00 a year and ten cents for your bed. Mr. Duncan: You referred to some helper service from Chicago Junction to Alta and return, you might have to do on your way. Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How far is it from Chicago Junction to Alta? Mr. Singleton: I think it is 33 miles; I am not going to state that positively now, but that is the way I have figured now, 33 miles. Mr. Duncan: How long are vou generallv on the trip up there? Mr. Singleton : Well, I have made the trip in six hours, and I have been ten hours making the trip. Mr. Duncan: What would you get for that trip? 325 Mr. Singleton: We get $1.00. Mr. Duncan : In addition to what you would be earning while on the road? Mr. Singleton: How, in addition? Mr. Duncan: Well, not in addition, I mean, you get that while you are on the road. Mr. Singleton: We get the one day, $4.85, yes, sir; for making that Alta.turn. Mr. Judson: Is the Y. M. C. A. Building generally patron- ized by the engineers? Mr. Singleton: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: A large proportion of them? Mr. Singleton :• Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: They find it satisfactory? Mr. Singleton: Very much that way, sir. And, as we all say there, if we could get one in Benwood, we would all belong. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone : Now you have heard about slow freight and all that, and now we will call one of our men who handles electric locomotives. I would like to put on Mr. 11. C. Case, an electric engineer on an electric locomotive, and who, also handles multi- ple unit service. He was formerly a steam engineer. Henry C. Case was called as a witness and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone : State your name, age. and occupation. Mr. Case: Henry C. Case; nine years an engineer; four in steam in service and five in electric. I am 36 years of age. I fired a steam locomotive six years prior to my promotion. I re- side in New York City. Mr. Stone : You have been in the employ of the New York Central, on the Hudson Division, all the time; what is called the Albany Division? Mr. Case : On the Harlem Division. Mr. Stone : You were in what kind of service, prior to going into the electric service? Mr. Case : Passenger service, as an extra man. 326 Mr. Stone : You had been in freight service before that f Mr. Case: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I wish you would describe, for the benefit of this Board, what your duties are and your work, in handling an electric locomotive. Mr. Judson : How long did he say he had been in the electric service? Mr. Case : Five years. Mr. Stone: Five years; ever since its installation between New York and Highbridge. Mr. Case : New York and North White Plains. Mr. Case: New York and North White Plains, I should say. Mr. Judson: That is where they take off the electric? Mr. Case : 25 miles. I might say, that, on the present run I am on I do not handle any electric locomotives week-days; one trip on Sundays. But, that is due to the fact that, the schedule of that group of trains that I run was made out for an engineer to handle all multiple unit trains, not for any particular rea- son, only that it just happened to be that way. Most of our runs handle both the multiple unit equipment and the electric en- gine ; that is, a man would go north out of New York with a multiple unit train and return on an electric engine, or vice versa. Mr. Stone : So you have to be familiar with both equip- ments ? Mr. Case : Oh, yes ; we are qualified en both, before Ave are allowed to run at all. Mr. Stone: When you qualified, Mr. Case, how long did it take you to learn the electric equipment? Mr. Case: Why, I was eight days qualifying. Mr. Stone : You already knew all the signals and everything else in regard to the division? Mr. Case : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Did you learn all of the multiple unit train and the electric locomotive in eight days, or, just simply learn to operate them and still have emergency men along? Mr. Case : I learned to operate them. Mr. Stone : Well, is it not a fact that the New York Central, for several months, at the first installation, had emergency men that could be called on if anything went wrong? 327 Mr. Case : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : You mean, they would ride with ithe engineer? Mr. Case : Yes, sir; there was a man on each electric engine and a man on each electric multiple unit train. Mr. Judson: A trained electrician? Mr. Case : No ; I wouldn't say so. Mr. Judson: What could he do, then? Mr. Stone: He was the expert who put in the equipment? Mr. Case : No ; they were not. Mr. Sthe looks of a front end of a train with newspapers hanging out through the cracks. Mr. Stone : Do you want to put on another witness before lunch, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Judson: Oh, yes; we want to get ahead. We haven't had but two witnesses this morning.' Mr. Duncan : I understood you to say you do not pretend to know anything about subway operations. Mr. Case : No, not the subway operation. Mr. Duncan : That is all. The Chairman : That is. all. Mr. Stone : I will call Mr. Ludlam, one of the engineers on the "Pennsylvania. Gteokge Ludlam was called as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : State your name and where you are employed. Mr. Ludlam : I am a motorman on the West Jersey & Sea- shore branch of the Pennsylvania. Mr. Stone : How long have you been employed on the Penn- sylvania? Mr. Ludlam: As an engineer, or whole service? Mr. Stone: The whole service. Mr. Ludlam : Nineteen years. Mr. Stone : How long have you been an engineer ? Mr. Ludlam: Eleven years. Mr. Stone : In steam service 1 Mr. Ludlam : Why, part of the time, and part of the time in -electric. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the electric service? Mr. Ludlam : Why, off and on ever since the electric service -started on the West Jersey, six years ago. Mr. Stone: What division are you running on? Mr. Lnrllam: West Jersev & Seashore. 349 Mr. Stone : What is the distance of your run? Mr. Ludlam: Why, we have various runs. Some of our runs are eighteen miles, some forty miles, some sixty-five miles. Mr. Stone: Do you run altogether multiple unit trains? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Have you got with you one of those time cards that they use on your division! Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: I wish you would show it to this Board, and show what kind of time card you use, if you will. (Mr. Ludlam exhibited paper to the Board.) Mr. Stone : Turn it over so they can see the figures. Mr. Ludlam: It is on both sides. It doesn't matter which side they get. Mr. Stone : You have to be familiar with these runs and know the time of all these trains ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes. Mr. Stone: You go through the same preparatory work, of course, in getting your train ready, the same as has been recited by Mr. Case? Mr. Ludlam: Why, partly; not altogether. We have to look over our switchboards and our master controller switch. We have to go through the switchboards and know that the switches and fuses are 0. K. Mr. Stone: In case anything happens to your train along the road, who makes the repairs? Mr. Ludlam : The motorman. Mr. Stone: Puts in fuses, coupling the bus lines, and all that sort of thing? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you ever been shocked coupling up your bus lines? Mr. Ludlam : I never have, no, sir. Mr. Stone : There is danger of it, though, isn 't there ? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : Did you say whether you ran an engine or a multiple unit train? Mr. Ludlam : A multiple unit train. Mr. Stone : You have never run an electric locomotive ? 350 Mr. Ludlam: No, sir; we have none on our division. Mr. Stone: You have been in both classes of service; do you consider the electric service just as responsible as the steam ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. The Chairman: Which do you prefer! Mr. Ludlam: Steam. Mr. Stone: And you are running steam now, are you not? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You bid back on the steam of your own accord? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And do you prefer it ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You would rather have it at the same com- pensation ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : And hours of work ? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you ever been burned or shocked with the current? Mr. Ludlam : I have been schocked several times, but have never been burnt. Mr. Stone: Shocked bad? Mr. Ludlam : Not to such an extent that I lost any time. Mr. Stone: In case anything should happen on top of your cars, do you have to go on top of your train and make repairs ■ — say to your trolley pole, or anything of that kind? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You are supposed to do that? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: The train crew don't do that? Mr. Ludlam: No, sir. Mr. Stone: In case you had falling weather, like we had yesterday, what is liable to happen? Mr. Ludlam: In wet weather — rainy weather? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Ludlam: Why, it makes them more dangerous. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Ludlam: Why, the water is liable to short circuit the wires. 351 Mr. Stone: Have you ever known of any of your men get- ting burned or shocked with the current? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: So as to disable them from service? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Have any of your men on those runs ever been injured by striking anything along the track? Mr. Ludlam: Slightly; yes. Mr. Judson : What do you mean by striking anything! Mr. Stone: Obstructions on the crossings, or anything ol that kind. The man is right on the front in these multiple unit trains and he has got between him and any obstruction only a sheet of glass or a thin board partition. Mr. Judson : You mean he is more exposed ? Mr. Stone: Yes, it is not like a steam locomitive, he hasn't the 40 or 50 feet of steel ahead of him. Mr. Ludlam : I might say the majority of our cars are glass front, and you sit just as close to them as I am here. Each one of those windows is 24 by 30 and is of glass. It is a vestibuled car and you look right out the window and down on the rail. There isn't anything there to check the shock from a wagon or a horse or anything of that sort. Mr. Judson : How fast do you go ? Mr. Ludlam: Our trains will run sixty miles an hour. Mr. Judson: Is that the regular speed? Mr. Ludlam : They were built to run fifty-eight. Mr. Judson: What is your average speed? Mr. Ludlam : We have an hour and thirty minutes to make sixty-five miles and in that sixty-five miles we have a number of slow-ups. I would say, on the run, as scheduled, they would average, on the through runs, about fifty-five miles an hour. Mr. Stone: How many cars do you handle in that train? Mr. Ludlam : Anywhere from one to seven. Mr. Stone: Express train service you carry seven? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir, and local six. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, these multiple unit trains are run on a third track, aren't they? Mr. Ludlam: Third rail . The Chairman: Third rail? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. 352 Mr. Stone : In many of them they do not, they may on his road. Mr. Ludlam : We use trolleys too. The Chairman : Either trolley or third rail ? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. They are standard gauge tracks and handle standard equipment. I think that is all I want to ask, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman : Any questions f Mr. Eidlitz: What compensation do you get for that? Mr. Ludlam : $5.00 a day for 180 miles or less, or ten hours or less. Mr. Shaw: How do you compute overtime? Mr. Ludlam : Miles or hours, whichever -is the greatest. Mr. Stone: Prior to that, you used to run 210 miles for a day, did you not! Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That was at the first start off? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : Overtime is comparatively rare on such trains? Mr. Ludlam : No, we have quite a number of runs that make overtime on an hourly basis and the majority of our runs on Sunday, make overtime on a mileage basis. Mr. Stone : You mean by an hour basis that the men work more than ten hours? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And, you mean by a mileage basis on Sundays that you run over 180 miles ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, run 210 miles in the majority of runs on Sunday. Mr. Stone : Is your preference for steam locomotives on the ground you would get the same pay for less hours of work? Mr. Ludlam : No, not altogether. My grounds for preferring the locomotives, — I consider them safer and I consider them more agreeable to run, especially in cold weather. Mr. Judson: It is harder physical work, isn't it? Mr. Ludlam : Yes. I have this reverse lever that you speak of. to contend with, on the steam, which I do not have on the eleetric. Mr. Stone : In speaking of the front end, what is the condition of the front end in snowy weather? 35;* Mr. Ludlam: Why, very bad. You take a snow, driving" those trains up the road at the rate of 55 or' 60 miles an hour and in a snow it will plaster right up against the windows, so it is impossible for you to see the signals or road crossings or anything of that sort and while we have a window on this side that drops half way down, — that is, — a short window, and 1 have run with that open quite frequently when I would have- to hold the control and look out of the window, facing the snow and rain. It is pretty bad. Mr. Stone: What about sleet, when you have it? Mr. Ludlam: Sleet is pretty hard on your eyes. Mr. Judson : You have storms of sleet and snow on the locomotive engines,- don't you! Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Is that the trouble there, too? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, more or less. With a locomotive en- gine as a rule, you can adjust your door so you can see through it. Mr. Stone: You don't have to stretch out across there and keep your hand on the control? Mr. Ludlam: It is about all I can do, as tall as I am, to hold one of those controls and look out of the side window. Mr. Stone: In putting in your fuse on that third rail, in bad weather, what do you have to do? Mr Ludlam: Why, we are provided with wooden paddles to put under the shoes to protect us from the shock. Mr. Stone: That is, to put in between the shoe and the rail, to shut off the contact. Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And, then you put in your fuses ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In case the wood happened to be wet, what" would happen? Mr. Ludlam: You would be very apt to get a shock. In addition to that, I might say, most of our track is double track and in replacing those fuses, you are in between two third rails, I would say about two feet apart. These third rails, at the present time, are covered, but up to the present time they were not covered, they are covered now with a board on top, but not on the sides or on the bottom, so it is a very easy 354 matter for you, in putting in these fuses to get against th6 third rail, which is back of you. Mr. Shaw: Have you the same pattern of covers that they iave on the New York Central Lines'? Mr. Ludlam: I don't know. I think not. I think the New York Central takes their current from underneath, don't they? Mr. Shaw: They are pretty well covered there. Mr. Ludlam: Ours are not. They have one board on top of them, but th,e back, sides, top and bottom is there for you to get on, with the exception of stepping on this board. The Chairman: Would you say there were more casual- ties on the multiple unit trains than there are on the trains ^operated by the steam method ? Mr. Ludlam: How is that? The Chairman: Would you say there are more casualties :to engineers on electric or multiple unit trains than there are on steam locomotives? Mr. Ludlam: I would say so, yes, sir. For instance, on the run I was running, when I was in the electric service, we make 160 miles. In that 160 miles, during the night, which is all the time — that is — my run is all night long — I cross over about 550 railroad crossings, at grade. Mr. Stone: Eoad crossings, you mean? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, road crossings. There are about 35 of those that are protected by crossing watchmen, in the day — .and about 15 at night. The rest of them are unprotected. Mr. Judson: That is the same on the steam? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, that is the same on the steam, with this differences : You have a boiler of 30 or 35 feet ahead of you, & mass of steel, to take the shock from a heavy loaded wagon or anything heavy you might strike, whereas, on the multiple unit you are within twenty inches of a big glass of about 24 by 30. Mr. Stone : Any small objects flying up — like striking a bird, or anything of that kind, would break that glass, would it not! Mr. Ludlam: We have had cases where a pigeon has come through and broken the glass. Mr. Stone: In case of a broken brake rigging or anything 1 of that kind, who would take it down? Mr. Ludlam: A motorman. ;ioo Mr. Stone : Have you ever known of anyone being burned . at it? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How badly burned ? Mr. Ludlam: We had one man was burned to tlie extent — that is — he lost about ten days, I think. Mr. Stone: On account of getting in contact with the cur- rent ? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What voltage do you carry ? Mr. Ludlam: 700. Mr. Stone: The same would be true in the case of a shoe getting torn! loose, or anything of that kind and you would have to make the repairs, if you could? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir, we are required, — in case of break- ing off of the contact shoes, — we are required to make neces- sary repairs, which would mean taking one off of the other side, or two, probably and placing them on that side in order to get back to the terminal. Mr. Stone : There is danger, of course, connected with putting on a new contact shoe? Mr. Ludlam: I should consider it was very dangerous. Mr. Eidlitz : Does that happen very often, Mr. Witness, put- ting on a shoe in the field? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, we have had a number of cases of it,, owing to the fact that something would get in there, you know and disarrange the third rail and throw it out of line and you would throw it out in this shape (illustrating) and when the- shoe comes along it will break it off and there is no way for you to know they are broken off until they are all gone, pro-, vided your bus lines are good. Cross-Examination : Mr. Duncan: If a shoe is broken on one of the multiple unit trains, can you still operate? Mr. Ludlam: If one shoe is broken, yes, sir, provided your bus lines are good. Mr. Duncan: You are in the steam service now? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. 356 Mr. Duncan: How long have you been back in the steam : service ? Mr. Ludlam: I came back this last change, the 21st of April. Mr. Duncan: And where is your run? Mr. Ludlam: Now? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Ludlam : Camden to Cape May and return. Mr. Duncan: Camden to Cape May? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How long does it take you to make a trip! Mr. Ludlam: Well you have got me, owing to the fact my run is marked up — I only run — that is, — have anything to do, going south; I am marked up to run papers, mail and ex- press south. They had on that list that I would run with deadhead equipment or anything that might be added in the future, so 1 arrange from ten o'clock, half past ten o'clock, eleven o'clock, sometimes up to six or seven. Mr. Duncan: It is a day run, is it, — or a night run? Mr. Ludlam : It is a day run owing to the fact I begin in the night and wind up in the day. I report to the round house at 3.15 in the morning. Mr. Duncan: What time do you commence in the day? Mr. Ludlam: I report at the round house at 3.15 in the morning. Mr. Duncan: That is your steam run? Mr. Ludlam: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Do you get more money on the steam run than you get on the electric run? Mr. Ludlam: Do I get more money? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Now where was your electric run? Mr. Ludlam: Camden to Millville, with the exception of Sunday; I make two round trips from Camden to Millville, forty miles each way. Mr. Duncan: Every day in the week? Mr. Ludlam: Except Sundays. Mr. Duncan: And that was your electric run? Mv. Ludlam: Yes, sir. 357 Mr. Duncan: And did you make the trips regularly! Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Four each day! Mr. Ludlam: Two round trips each day. Mr. Duncan: And that was on the West Jersey & Seashore Line? Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Now, will you let me look at that time table which you have there? Mr. Stone: I do not see, Mr. Chairman, how we are going to get a record of that conversation over there. Mr. Duncan: He is just pointing it out to me. Mr. Ludlam: I can give him the numbers of the trains, if you like, and he can hunt them out. Mr. Judson: It is all right, I think. Mr. Duncan : What was the number of your trains ? Mr. Ludlam : 1295, 1308, 1325 and 1340. Mr. Duncan : And, this time table which you show, shows the time of those four trains ? Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Which you operated! Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. They will be shown in two places there; they will be shown on the Newfield branch, — that is the train between Newfield and Cape May. Mr. Duncan: And, how many train movements does this time table show? Mr. Ludlam: All told? I couldn't tell you. Mr. Duncan: Well, approximately. Mr. Ludlam : Well, I don 't know ; I could not tell you ; I don 't know ; it is pretty full. Mr. Duncan : That shows the movement of all the trains of the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, does it not? Mr. Ludlam: On that division. Mr. Duncan: On that division as well as the branches? ■ Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir; it has all of our branches wifth the exception of one. Mr. Duncan : And, also shows the Sunday time table ? Mr. Ludlam : That is on the other side. Mr. Duncan: And, you did not operate on Sunday? 358 Mr. Ludlam : Oh, yes ! I did ! Mr. Duncan : How many Sundays did you operate ? Mr. Ludlam : Every Sunday I was there. Mr. Duncan: And, what was the number of the Sunday runs — the same? Mr. Ludlam : No, I ran 1253. Mr. Duncan : Give me the numbers of the Sunday runs. Mr. Ludlam: 1268. The Chairman : Mr. Duncan, how is that material 1 Mr. Duncan : It is not material except in this sense, that I have rather gained the impression that the witness wanted the Commission to understand he had to be familiar with this whole time table. ' Mr. Judson : No, I do not think he gave such an impression. Mr. Duncan : If that is not so, I will not pursue this inquiry, — if it is understood this gentleman is only concerned with his own trains. The Chairman : We will take that for granted. Mr. Stone : The man does need to have a general knowlege of all of them, and is liable to be called on any of those trains on that particular division. Mr. Judson: When he runs them. Mr. Stone : He is liable to be called for any of them and must have a general knowledge of the whole card. Mr. Duncan : But he did not run them. The Chairman : It would be the same on a steam road, would it not! Mr. Stone : Absolutely. He must have a general knowledge of the whole card and must look out for these other trains at each station. Mr. Ludlam : For your information, we have one crew, what we call the cut-off crew, and they run from four to six trains a day, each one of them. While I am not running that, I did run it ; but gave it up and went on the other line. Mr. Duncan : Now, you have given us the two Sunday trains ; Jnrst.No. 1253 and 1268. Mr. Ludlam : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : What were the others ? Mr. Ludlam : 1097. 359 Mr. Duncan: What else? Mr. Ludlam : 1128. Mr. Shaw: When you were running in the other way, how many different trains a week did you operate! You operated several different trains a day? Mr. Ludlam: When I spoke of the cut-off that I ran? Mr. Shaw: Yes. You were referring just now to crews that did operate a good many different trains a day. Mr. Ludlam: I would say in the neighborhood of 30. Mr. Shaw: 30 different trains a week? Mr. Ludlam: Yes, sir. Mr. Shaw: That would have involved a very large knowl- edge of a time table like that, would it not? Mr. Ludlam: Yes — well, hold on. I said we were running — yes, in the neighborhood of 30. Mr. Stone : I would also like to ask if a number of those trains shown there are not steam trains? Mr. Ludlam : Some few of them, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is not part of that single track ? Mr. Ludlam : Yes ; about nine miles of it, or ten miles. The Chairman: Is that all? Mr. Duncan : That is all. (Witness excused.) The Chairman: We will now adjourn until 1:30 P. M. Whereupon, at 12 :30 a recess was taken until 1 :30 P. M. AFTEB EECESS. 1 :30 P. M. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, are you ready? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. The Chairman: You may proceed. Mr. Stone : I would like to put on Mr. J. F. Garland of the electric service on the New Haven. 360 Joseph F. Garland was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: State your name and age, and how long you nave been m the service. Mr. Garland: Joseph F. Garland, 42 years of age, seven years and five months on the New Haven. ; Mr. Stone : You were a hired man '? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the electric ser- vice? The Chairman: You mean by hired man — Mr. Stone: An engineer that has come from some other road and probably had some experience on some other road as •a locomotive engineer and was hired as an engineer. How long have you been in the electric service? Mr. Garland : Four years and about six months. Mr. Stone : I wish you would explain to these gentlemen in what way the New Haven electric service differs from the Penn- sylvania and the New York Central and describe the work of getting ready for service on one of their electric locomotives. Mr. Garland: Well, the New Haven locomotives and mul- tiple unit cars are equipped with both alternating current and direct current. Mr. Stone: Why is that? Mr. Garland: Well, the New Haven is operated under a dif- ferent system than the New York Central and we have to run over both roads. Mr. Stone : So when you come to the junction out here you drop the — Mr. Garland: We change from one power to the other. That is, in changing from the New Haven to the New York Central, we drop our trolleys and lower the shoes. In getting one of these locomotives ready we have to be around and con- sult the bulletin board, the same as stated by these other men and we have to inspect the engine outside, the running gear, and also test out the electrical part of it, such as lights, pressures, blowers, trolleys and shoes ; that is added, of course, to the other direct current equipment. Mr. Stone: What do you use blowers for on your engines? 361 Mr. Garland: To cool off transformers and motors and also- to operate the steam boiler in the winter time. We have got to be ready for service, that is,, ready to go after our train, wherever it may be, 30 minutes before the leaving time of the train. All other work we do, of course, on our own time.. Mr. Stone : Well, in most of your passenger service you han- dle two locomotives coupled together, do you not, two units'? Mr. Garland: When the train is heavy we do. Mr. Stone : One man handles both! Mr. Garland : Yes. Mr. Stone : A helper on each engine ? Mr. Garland": No, there is only one helper; one engineer and one helper and when we haye two engines like that, of course it takes a little longer to inspect them. We have, got to figure on that when we start in work. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by two engines — two en- gines on one train? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, they are operated as one, and coupled together and operated as one. The Chairman: One in front of the other? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : You spoke of on your own time. Are you paid for that 30 minutes ? Mr. Garland: That is when our time commences, but we have to prepare the engines and look them over on our own (time. Mr. Stone: What voltage do you carry on your line? Mr. Garland: 11,000 on the New Haven. Mr. Stone : That is stepped down by transformers at the engine to what — what does it enter at? Mr. Garland: There are nine motor taps on the engine and the highest one is 636 volts and the lowest is 239. Mr. Stone : Then, really, in service, you use about 600 to 630 volts— is that right? Mr. Garland: No; this high voltage tap is connected on a low voltage tap so that you get about the mean between the two taps ; it would be about 545 volts geared on the motor. Mr. Van Hise: Is the transformer on your own engine? Mr. Garland: Yes, on the small engines there are two, and on the larger ones, there are more. 362 Mr. Van Hise: Is the current transmitted at 11,000 volts! Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Van Hise: And, then transmitted down on your en- gine ? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, down to the proper voltage for the motors. Mr. Stone: Does that increase the danger, with that high voltage ? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Why! Mr. Garland: Well, it increases the danger in more ways than one. Recently, we have a ease of a circuit breaker blow- ing up and this is in an iron case and this case blew out in front of the locomotive; and the engineer has to sit right in front of this case. Then if you have any trouble on the roof, of course, you have to go up there and make repairs and it takes a pretty active man to get on these locomotives, the way they are arranged. Mr. Stone: To get on the roof, you mean? Mr. Garland: Yes. We have a man in our service that could not take one of those jobs because he could not get on the roof. He is running one of our passenger trains. Mr. Judson: Because he could not what? Mr. Garland: Could not get on the roof to make repairs •on the locomotive. Mr. Stone: Is there any bulletin on your road in regard to this high voltage arcing across or getting near the trolley -wires? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, there is a general order posted around on the bulletin boards and also on every electric loco- Tnotive. Mr. Stone : What does it say, can you quote it in a general ~way? Mr. Garland: Yes, it cautions the men to keep away from "the overhead wire, as there is danger within 14 inches. Mr. Stone: 14 inches'? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That means that it will arc across under cer- tain conditions 14 inches ? Mr. Garland: Well, it may, although we have never had it obo do that, that we know of. It may do it, for instance, on a rainy day or rainy night, if your clothing was all wet, that would be the time it would do it, if it would ever do it. Mr. Stone: Then, if I understand it correctly, it is possi- ble for a man to get killed or injured with that high voltage without actually coming in contact with the wire! Mr. Garland: I Avould not say as to that, but it may be so.. But that bulletin notice gives you the understand that there is danger within 14 inches and I take it from that that it will. Mr. Stone: Explain to these gentlemen your work in han- dling these two engines and how you proceed to do it and all, in handling your train. Mr. Garland: Well, you have to be extremely careful on account of the slack between the two engines, not to pull out a drawhead and be very careful to handle them and start them up slow on the start. You also have to be on the alert for everything that will happen on the second locomotive while you are on the head locomotive; and we have had quite a lot of trouble on the second locomotive, which of course we were held responsible for. On the New York Central Road there is quite a difference, if you have trouble, in handling the locomotives; that is, cutting out the different motors. We are also held responsible for that. Starting out of the New York Central terminal you have got to be very careful how you notch up; that is, when you are starting the train the object is to get out of the resistance, as they call it, as soon as possible, and you have got to watch your ammeter and at the same time you have got to watch your signals, also you have got to be careful you do not get on the gap. Mr. Judson: Get on what? Mr. Garland : Get on the . gap. We have places on the third rail, on the cross-overs you have a gap in it, and if you stop on that, you have no power. Mr. Judson: Do you run on a third rail altogether? Mr. Garland: No, sir, partly on the third rail. Eleven miles on the third rail and 22 miles on overhead. Mr. Stone: As I understand it, the entire New Haven equipment is overhead trolley and the New York Central equip- ment is third rail? 364 Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You run from New York to Stamford? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you ever been burned or shocked with .the current? Mr. Garland: I was very often shocked, but I was never burned, only once, and that burn did not really injure me, only it was disagreeable for a while. I burned one of my fingers, once. Mr. Van Hise: This lower voltage isn't sufficient to injure a man much? Mr. Garland: 500 to 636 volts. I would not like to try it. Mr. Stone: Have not there been a number of cases on record where it has killed? Mr. Garland: That is, the 11,000 volts has. Mr. Stone : I mean the 500 or 600, a direct current, in our street car systems. I know we have had a number of them in different towns, killed. Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : What are your duties in regard to the second ■engine; does your helper ride back with the second engine or does he ride with you on your front engine? Mr. Garland: He is supposed to ride on the front engine and call off the signals. Mr. Store : If you had anything go wrong with the second engine, what do you do, send him back or stop and go back and inspect it yourself? Mr. Garland: That would depend a good deal on what is on there. If it is a good man I would take a chance and go back myself. Of course, you might have a man you could not depend on. There are cases on: the New York Central where the fireman has got to handle one engine and the engineer the other. Mr. Judson: "What do you mean by saying he is supposed to be on the front engine? Mr. Garland: The rules require him to be there and call out the signals as we approach them, but on the New Haven road, where they have a boiler in one end of the locomotive, when we are using the boiler, he has got to be there and attend to the boiler, so he cannot be there at the front end. 365 Mr. Stone: In ease anything went wrong to any of your brake rigging or anything of that kind, would you have to. make the repairs after getting out on the road? Mr. Garland: On the locomotive; yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you have to do any oiling or greasing on these engines; do you do any oiling? Mr. Garland : No, I do not have to do any of the oiling. Mr. Stone: It is all prepared in the house? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : In case one of your transformers grounded, what would happen? Mr. Garland: Well, if we had a smaller engine with the two transformers, it would disable one side of the engine. When they do ground them, if you have a locomotive, it will be filled with smoke and you have got a fire and you have got to put the fire out and they are enclosed in an iron case and it is a very hard matter to get at them and you have got to get that fire out if you do not, it is liable to burn the rest of the equipment up. Mr. Stone: Have you ever had one to ground with you? Mr. Garland: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you ever known of them to ground? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, I knew of nine to be grounded in one night. Mr. Stone : What was the cause of having such an epidemic in one night? Mr. Garland: Well, we had a heavy rain storm and the water got in on them and caused them to ground. Mr. Stone : Have you any idea what one of these transform- ers costs? Mr. Garland : The only way I could tell that would be from a report that was made that another engineer grounded one day and in the report of the accident it was claimed that he caused $3,000 worth of damage. I take it from that that they are worth about $2,500. Mr. Stone : You say the engineer grounded one. How would he ground it ? Mr. Garland: Well, the instructions tell us if we do not handle them just right, we will ground them, or if we do not run 366 our blowers and we have a heavy train or a heavily loaded train and use too much power, it will ground them. Mr. Stone : Then I understand that your electric locomotive heats when in heavy service ? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir ; very much. Mr. Stone : These blowers are simply to blow the cold air in? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : It keeps them cool? Mr. Garland : Cools them off ; yes, sir. Mr. Stone : When you get over on your direct current on the New York Central, have you ever grounded with your main re- sistance ? Mr. Garland : Yes, I grounded with my main resistance once. Mr. Stone : What happened? Mr. Garland : Why, that disabled the locomotive ; it had to be towed in. Mr. Stone : Did you ever have one of your compressors grounded ? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then what happened? Mr. Garland: Then you have got to run with a lower air pressure, because the one wont keep up the pressure on the train, if you have a long train. Mr. Stone : Suppose both of your compressors went out of service, then what would you do ? Mr. Garland : The locomotive would be disabled entirely ; you cannot operate without air on the New Haven. The Chairman: What do you mean by grounded? Mr. Stone : Short circuited. Mr. Garland: The insulation is destroyed and instead of running the machine, it goes to the ground. That is, it burns up. It is just the same as if you have a pipe line here arid had so many pounds of steam and you broke that pipe so the steam would rush out that break. It would have about the same effect on an electric current. Mr. Judson: Do all the trains of the New Haven road, elec- tric trains, run with two engines ? Mr. Garland : No, sir ; some of them are light and they run with one and lately we have got some heavy locomotives that will • handle any of the trains. 367 Mr. Stone : Your first locomotives were small locomotives and you have to run them nearly always in two units ? Mr. Garland : One unit, when we have a heavy train. Mr. Stone : Well, you run the two together"? Mr. Garland: Run the two together, operate it as one loco- motive. Mr. Stone : Operate it as one, of course. Mr. Garland : Yes. Mr. Stone: Is the air brake on the electric locomotive the same as on the steam? Mr. Garland: The operating part of it is, hut you do not get the air the same way; you get it by a motor driven pump instead of by a steam driven pump. Mr. Stone : In case anything happens out on the road, you are required to get things cleaned up as soon as possible, are you not? Mr. Garland: Yes sir, it is very necessary to cause no de- lays. Mr. Stone: If anything happens to your trolleys, you are supposed to go up and work at it? Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Stone : There is no way of cutting the current off from that wire overhead while you are working, is there? Mr. Garland: No, sir. Mr. Stone: It is energized all the time? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir, all the time. Mr. Stone : Do you use both trolleys, or just the one on the car? Mr. Garland: We use one trolley at a time, but both are energized. When one trolley is against the rail, they are both energized. Mr. Stone : The other one is charged even though it is down on the roof? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Well, you have had occasions where these trol- leys have failed to fold down, have you not, when you came to the third rail — have you not? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Then, what did you do ? Mr. Garland: You had to go on the roof and pull it down 368 ; by hand if you are off the wire, but if you are put up under the wire you have to pull it down with the pole. Mr. Stone: 1 think you had one case where one of your men attempted to pull it down with the pole. Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : He is dead, is he not ? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Do you mean he was killed in that attempt! Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, he did not die right away, but he died from the effect of it. Mr. Stone: If I remember rightly, this pole is some eight or ten feet long, that he pulls it down with? Mr. Garland: I think it is about 12 feet long. Mr. Stone: A wooden pole? Mr. Garland: Yes Mr. Stone: Has it ever been explained why the current came across it at 12 feet of wooden pole and burned him? Mr. Garland : Not to my knowledge it has not. Mr. Stone: The cabs of your locomotive are of iron or steel? Mr. Garland: Yes, they are steel all right. Mr. Stone: And, from some unknown cause, standing on the corner of this steel cab, he got the full voltage? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Was it a stormy day? Mr. Garland: No; this was a clear day — the day this man got it. Mr. Stone : In case you were working on one of these panto- graph trolleys and from any cause it should fly up against the wire, what would happen? Mr. Garland: Well, if I was working on the other one I would be liable to get 11,000 volts. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, are there more casualties or less casualties upon these electric engines than on the steam engines ? Mr. Stone: In proportion to the number we think there are more, because you have the same danger of collision and the same danger of derailment and you have the additional danger of the electric current , all the time and especially is it true ■ of the New Haven Road, where the voltage is very high. 369 The Chairman: You have no statistics on that, have you? Mr. Stone: Nothing, -only what I filed with you. I filed with you the cases of the New Haven where they have been killed and injured and the number of men who have been burned on the Pennsylvania. I think also, saw it in the statement from the railroads. Mr. Van Hise: It is in the statement of the railroads; all the cases on each road. Mr. Stone: Yes, I think so. You have had experience in steam work. Which would you prefer, all condition being equal, so far as hours and runs are concerned, I mean — which would you prefer, steam or elec- tricity? Mr. Garland: I would prefer the steam. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Garland : Well, I think there is less danger. If I get a steam locomotive ready, I know I can get somewheres, but I am not sure of it when I start out with an electric locomotive. Mr. Stone: You mean by that that the current is liable to i'aii at any time and nobody can for see it or prevent it, is that it? Mr. Garland: That is it. Mr. Stone: These breakdowns, as far as the electric loco- motives are concerned, give no warning, then ? Mr. Garland: No, sir. Mr. Judson : Does this matter of having both currents exist on other roads? Mr. Garland: No, not that I know of; I don't believe it is in existence anywhere except on the New Haven road, although it .maybe later on. Mr. Stone : What would happen in case one of the motors on your locomotive grunded ? Mr. Garland : Well, it would create quite an explosion, and we would have to locate it and cut it out. Of course it would probably disable half of the engine. Mr. Stone: You could still proceed however, with what was left could you. Mr. Garland : Yes, sir ; that is, — we could, under certain con- ditions — if we could handle the train, we could. If it was light" enough for the engine to handle it that way we could. 370 Mr. Stone: Well is it possible to do this by the improper handling of the current through the controller! Mr. Garland : We are instructed so, yes. Mr. Stone : What are your instructions if this happens on the New York Central lines'? Mr. Garland: If you ground a motor on the New York Cen- tral Lines, you are supposed to notify them and ask for help and they hold you accountable if you don't get the train in, if yon don't ask for help, go anywhere or still or do any more damage, why you are accountable for it. Mr. Stone : Have you ever had a grounded motor on the New York Central? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Then you have run over the New York Central .with a grounded motor? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Why did you do it? Mr. Garland: Well, I was running the risk of being censured or disciplined, in order to get the train in on time and save the company that T am working for, the money that they would have to pay for taking that train in. I understand they have to pay the New York Central a certain amount of money if they help, the train in or out, so to save time, and of course I saved them money by doing so, -I take the train in, if I can. Mr. Stone : How about the multiple unit trains on the New Haven? Mr. Garland : Well, the multiple unit trains have got the same equipment except that it is outside of the car, under the car, and there is another difference that you do not have to watch any ammeter in notching up on the multiple unit ; you just open Tip the controller and that is automatically taken care of. Mr. Stone : Is the air brake the same on the multiple unit train as on the electric locomotive? Mr. Garland : No, sir, it is a later type of air brake. Mr. Stone: It is the new equipment that is just out? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir, designed for that service, I be- lieve. Mr. Stone : If you have trolley trouble on the multiple unit on the New Haven, how is that different from trolley trouble on the electric locomotives? 371 Mr. Garland: "Well, you are liable to have eight cars, or ten cars as the case may be, and you may be running the train from the end where there is no trouble and you may have to go back the eight or ten cars, whatever it may be, and do your work there ; that is, you may have a motor car on the rear end of the train which you may be operating from the head end. Mr. Stone: And, so far as the question of safety is con-- eerned, in what way does it differ? Mr. Garland: Well, you have nobody to take care of tbe- equipment while you are making repairs. Somebody could go in and raise the trolleys while you are working up there. Mr. Stone: As I understand it your trolleys are raised by compressed air? Mr. Garland: No, by spring pressure. Mr. Stone: By spring pressure? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, and they are lowered by air pres- sure. Mr. Stone: They throw up against the trolley wire with a spring? Mr. Garland : With a spring, yes, sir, and are held there by spring pressure. Mr. Stone: How is that spring released? Mr. Garland : You release that by air pressure too. Mr. Stone : Unless all the quipment is locked up, anybody fooling with the equipment could do that while you are on top working with the trolley? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. But there is also a safeguard, but it has never been found very reliable and that is what we call a safety chain. These chains have been known to break by the trolley going up when they were released, when the train was connected with the trolley. Mr. Stone: In case you would have a bursted air hose on one of these multiple unit trains, who would have to replaee- it? Mr. Garland : I would have to replace it. Mr. Stone : On any part of the train ? Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Stone : The train crew would not do it ? Mr. Garland : They have nothing to do with it. Mr. Stone : In case of any electrical trouble back on the mul- tiple unit trains, whose place is it to go back and look after it? Mr. Garland: The engineer's place. Mr. Stone : On any part of the train? Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Stone : How many cars back do you have to go ? Mr. Garland: Well, of course that would depend on the mumber of cars you had 'and the location of the motor cars. Mr. Stone: You go until you find it, do you? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Are you required to carry any tools ? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, the company furnishes the box and a set of tools and they weigh about 20 or 25 pounds, box and all. You are supposed to carry them around to whatever engine or train you have. Mr. Stone : In learning the electric locomotive on your road, /an instructor is but on with you, is he not? Mr. Garland: Well, the way of instructing on the New Haven Road, we get three days of what we call preliminary in- structions, that is, the road foreman takes you around to the house where the engines are stored, and he gives you lectures on the equipment. Then you are furnished with an inspector 15 days. Mr. Stone: 15 days, that is, in actual service? Mr. Garland : Yes> sir. You run the train and he instructs you. At the end of the time you are called into the office to take the examination. If you pass with a percentage of 75 you are qualified. If you do not get this 75 per cent, yon get 10 days more instruction. Mr. Stone: With the instructor with vou? Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Stone : Making 25 days in all ? Mr. Garland r Yes, sir. Then, if you do not pass vou have got to learn the rest of it at your own expense or until you qualify. Mr. Judson : Do you mean that this time vou have just de- scribed is at the company's expense? Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, 25 days, or 28 rather. 373 Mr. Judson: That is, they pay you for your time! Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Judson : Are all the engineers employed in this service on electric engines steam engineers, men who have had exper- ience as steam engineers! Mr. Garland: Formerly, yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You mean, before that they had been steam engineers ! Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Judson: Do they take any other parties except those! Mr. Garland: They have not, no, sir. Mr. Judson: Up to this time! Mr. Garland: No, sir. Mr. Judson: How is it on the other roads! Mr. Garland: That I could not say. I do not believe they have. Mr. Judson: So, as a point of fact all the positions are filled by steam engineers who are qualified at the company's expense ! Mr. Garland: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is the electric equipment all of the same kind on the New Haven Road! Mr. Garland: No, there is quite a difference. They have eight different types of locomotives and two different styles of multiple unit. Mr. Stone: Do you get your knowledge of all this equip- ment during the working hours! Mr. Garland: No, sir, I could not. I have had to do a lot of studying to get what little I know about it. Mr. Stone: So you have taken some time of your own! Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, quite a lot of it. To show you what the difference is in this equipment Mr. Judson: Did you apply of your own volition or your own will, for this electric service! Mr. Garland: No, sir. The electric service came there while I was in the steam service and, of course in order to work in the service I had to take the electric. After we had gotten the passenger engines, the company bought another type of engine and they found it necessary to issue this pamphlet in addition to the instructions we got on the electric locomotives. This pamphlet is on one other type of engine they got and was added to other knowledge of locomotives. Now, they have got six different styles of locomotives after this. This was the second. Mr. Stone: I think this was the first one, if I remember right. Mr. Garland: Yes, sir that was the first one that came out. This one was the first one. Mr. Stone: I should like to have that filed as an exhibit. Mr. Judson: Do you mean they operate six kinds, or that the improved kinds have taken the place of the others? Mr. Garland: Well, they try to improve them. The later ones they have improved. Mr. Stone: The six types are in service, are they not? Mr. Garland: Yes. I said they tried to improve them. That is my opinion. May he they did improve, from their standpoint. Mr. Judson : You mean that they have six different types, and you are liable to be placed on one or the other of these? Mr. Garland : Eight different types, and I am liable to be placed on any one of them. The Chairman: You want to mark that as an exhibit? Mr. Stone: I would like to, if you please. I thought per- haps it might be put in, in view of the fact it has all of the parts named, if there is no objection. I thought perhaps if any question came up you would under- stand it better; that is all. It is simply a diagram of the parts of the locomotive. (The paper was marked, Engineers' Exhibit No. 79, July 1.9th, 1912.) Mr. Judson: Is this the first one? Mr. Stone: That is the first type. I don't think there is a diagram of the later types. If there is, I haven't it in my files. Mr. Garland: No, there isn't anything of that kind. Mr. Stone: Is there any other statement you want to make? Mr. Garland: No, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: How long a run do you make, Mr. Garland? Mr. Garland : 33 miles and a half. The Chairman : From where to where ? 375 Mr. Garland: New York to Stamford, or from Stamford to New York. Mr. Eidlitz: How often do you make the run? Mr. Garland: Well, as it happens, I am a spare man, I don't have any regular job. Mr. Eidlitz: Are you in a pool! Mr. Garland: Yes, sir, in a spare men's pool. Mr. Eidlitz : What compensation do you get? Mr. Garland: Well, I could not tell you what I get. Of course, when I am running on a job, I get the same as the regular man. Mr. Eidlitz : What is that? Mr. Garland : We get $4.10 for 110 miles or less, 10 hours or less. Mr. Judson : Is that the same as a steam engineer would get? Mr. Garland : The same as a steam engineer, yes, sir. Mr. Judson: It pays you just the same? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : The same hours? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: How about overtime? Mr. Garland: Overtime is the same. Mr. Eidlitz: Double? Mr. Garland : I would not call it double, miles or hours. You get miles or hours after ten hours, provided you have made over 100 miles. If we only make 80 miles and work 12 hours a day, we only get 100 miles, but we would get two hours overtime. That would be the same as 120 miles. Mr. Judson : As I understand you now, on the New Haven road, in the substitution of electricity for steam, the places are all given to the steam engineers who qualify at the company's expense and they are paid the same compensation? Mr. Garland : Yes, sir, that is right. Mr. Stone: I might add, Mr. Judson, for your information^ thai the same applies to the New York Central. All these men in the electric service, the positions are given to steam engineers who qualify. They have their seniority in other classes of ser- vice and they bid from steam into electricity or .they may bid from the electric runs back into steam again, on the same con- ditions. •o 376 Mr. Judson: Does that prevail everywhere? Mr. Stone: I don't think it prevails everywhere. I does on this road and I understand it is the same on the Pennsylvania Bofid, practically the same. Mr. Garland: Some of our runs are pretty fast. We have seven or eight trains between New York and Stamford, that make the run in 48 minutes, allowing three minutes for the first half mile, that leaves 45 minutes to make 33 miles and 22 of that is used on the New York Central, 22 minutes in all, so that gives us 26 minutes to male the other 22 miles. Then, we have all kinds of speed limits, from six miles an hour to 60 miles an hour. Mr. Stone : All right, Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan : That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone : T would like to put on one more electric man, Mr. D. J. Keleher. He is a Pennsylvania engineer. D. J. Keleheh was called as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : Tell them your name and age and how long you have been in the service. Mr. Keleher: Daniel J. Keleher. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the service of the Pennsylvania? Mr. Keleher: Twenty-two years. Mr. Stone : How long have you been an engineer ? Mr. Keleher: Only eight years; seven years and seven months. Mr. Stone: Were you a fireman before that? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How many years did you fire ? Mr. Keleher : Twelve years even. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the electric srvice? Mr. Keleher: A year and ten months. Mr. Stone : Explain to this Board what you are doing and what you are running, and where. 377 Mr. Keleher : I report at 5 :30 in the morning ; consume thirty minutes preparing the engine. Mr. Stone: You are running an electric engine? Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Where! Mr. Keleher: On the Manhattan Division of the Pennsyl- vania Railroad. Mr. Stone: That is from where to where? Mr. Keleher: From Pennsylvania Station, New York, to Manhattan Transfer, with loaded trains and between Pennsyl- vania Station and Sunnyside with our empty trains. Mr. Judson: Where is Sunnyside? Mr. Keleher: Long Island. Mr. Stone : A storage yard, is it not? Mr. Keleher: A storage yard, where we make up and pre- pare our trains — most of our trains. Mr. Stone : Y T ou say thirty minutes preparing your engine. What preparatory work do you do in preparing your engine 1 ? Mr. Keleher: Well, preparing our engine consists of cut- ting our switches in, starting our compressors and oiling our engine, and knowing that she is in service — she is ready for service at six o'clock. Mr. Stone: Do you fill your grease cups! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How many grease cups have you on each of those engines to fill? Mr. Keleher: Twenty-four. Mr. Stone : Do you generally use two of them coupled together! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: All the time! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Then you use two electric locomotives coupled- together every day? Mr. Keleher: Two units; yes, sir. That composes one engine. Mr. Stone : Well, either one of them would be an engine if it was alone, would it not! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. 378 Mr. Stone: All right. Explain your work from the time .you go to work. Mr. Keleher: Well, at six o'clock, then, I take the signal and run whatever trains they assign me to. As a rule we make about — well, we leave New York, go to the Transfer light in the morning, bring trains back to the Pennsylvania Station, un- load the passengers and baggage and take the train to Sunny- side, where we dispose of it, doing a little shifting on them, .and couple onto another one and bring it back to the Penn- -sylvania Station again. That is about the nature of our work between Pennsylvania Station and the Transfer. Mr. Stone : What is the difference between Pennsylvania .Station and the Transfer? Mr. Keleher: 'About nine miles. Mr. Stone : What is your running time ? Mr. Keleher: Prom twelve to fifteen minutes. Mr. Stone: You run under the river, through the tunnel! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : You have got some pretty heavy grades in there -through the tunnel, have you not! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir; about two per cent. Interlocking signals through the Pennsylvania Station and automatic sig- nals outside of the Pennsylvania Station on out over the rest of the road, to the interlocking station at the Transfer, and of course interlockers over the draw. Mr. Stone: What rate of pay do you receive for this work? Mr. Keleher: Five dollars a day for ten hours or less, or 120 miles or less. Mr. Stone: Do you make the mileage every day? Mr. Keleher: No, sir, I make about 90 miles a day, and probably, from one to two hours shifting. Mr. Judson: One or two hours what? Mr. Keleher: Shifting. Mr. Stone: Switching? Mr. Keleher: Switching. Mr. Stone: In the yard? Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You have run both steam and electricity. Which do you prefer? 379 Mr. Keleher : "Well, I prefer the steam. In fact, I am going back on steam now ; I am assigned to steam. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Keleher : Well, the prospects are much better over there on the steam road; the risk is less. I like them better. The Chairman: Do you make more pay? Mr. Keleher: No, sir; the same pay. The Chairman: I mean does it aggregate more? Mr. Keleher: No, sir. The Chairman: It does not? Mr. Keleher: No, sir; the rate of pay is the same; passen- ger engines, five dollars a day. Mr. Judson: Do you work a less number of hours or more? Mr. Keleher: Well, they have the same basis. Mr. Judson: And the same pay? Mr. Keleher : Except the through passenger service. There are lay off days in the through passenger service. Of course, I am away down on that list now. Mr. Judson: You mean by that, that you would not be as- signed to a through passenger train? Mr. Keleher: No, sir, I am on the extra list over there. I am assigned now to an everyday run at the present time, Point Pleasant run. Mr. Stone: You say there are twenty-four cups to be filled on one of those engines? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How long will it take you to fill them ? Mr. Keleher : Well, if I have to do it alone — I suppose with- out calling a helper — why, the best part of an hour. Mr. Stone: You do not fill them every day do you? Mr. Keleher: No, sir; but they have to be screwed down every day. Mr. Judson: Are all the electric engineers on that service on the Pennsylvania men who have been steam engineers? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir ; most of them have come out of steam service. When the service was opened up there was not enough engineers applied for positions there to fill all the vacancies there for that reason they took the older firemen there. Mr. Judson: But they took their own employes? 380 Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: They were steam firemen promoted to electric engineers instead of being promoted to steam engineers, is that correct? Mr. Keleher: Yes. Mr. Jndson: Were they assigned to that or did the men ■ apply for it? Mr. Ke'eher : They applied for it. Mr. Judson : You mean they applied for it because they pre- ferred it to the steam service"? Mr. Keleher: Well, it was a promotion. Mr. Judson: That is, to the firemen? Mr. Keleher : From the freight service, it was a promotion for all of us. There were none of us in any better than freight 1 .service at that time. Mr. Judson: You regarded the passenger service as a pro- : motion? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir. We didn't really know how it would turn out at that time. We all of us went over there for the ex- perience as well. Mr. Judson : But the Pennsylvania had not gone outside of its employes to get outsiders to come in and run any of these trains, did it? Mr. Keleher: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you ever been burned or shocked in any way with the current? Mr. Keleher : No, sir. I had one blow out in my face, that is all. Mr. Keleher : No, it was an arc shoot blowing out ; that was when we were qualifying here. I was not laid up with it. Mr. Judson : Were you paid for the time when you were qualifying? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How long were you in qualifying? _Mr. Keleher: Well, we were from the middle of September until the middle of November; that is on account of starting the whole thing up with a new set of men. Mr. Stone: That is the whole Pennsylvania terminal, the mew terminal ? 381 Mi. Kelelier : Yes, sir, that is when they inaugurated it. Mr. Stone: And you were about 60 days learning then? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir, about that time. We were examined and qualified inside of that 60 days, but we used a good deal or some of that time for learning and being prepared to open up the new division. Mr. Stone : Have you ever known of anyone being injured over there on an electric locomotive! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In what way did he get injured! Mr. Keleher: By the spout of the oil can coming in con- tact with the truck frame and the shoe beam. Mr. Stone : The shoe beam f Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is the third rail, you mean, the contact rail! Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir, that is the beam that the third rail shoes are fastened to. Mr. Stone: The result is, he got a short circuit, is that- what you would call it, — or got hit with the current ? Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir, it got around and he had hold of it and got burned. Mr. Stone : In; oiling his engine '? Mr. Keleher : In performing his duty and oiling his engine, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : How badly was he burned ? Mr. Keleher: Well, I believe there is one of our men off at the present time with it; and one of the helpers who has been off, I guess, three or four weeks with it; and another engineer off a couple of weeks. Mr. Judson : It is a third rail system which you have on the Pennsylvania, is it not? Mr. Keleher: Yes, sir, third rail, and through the Penn- sylvania station over the gaps there we have the overhead as well. Mr. Stone: What is your voltage? Mr. Keleher: 650 D. C, direct current. Mr. Stone : Can you name any number of these men who have been shocked or burned? Mr. Keleher : There have been about eight of them. 382 Mr. Stone: Has any one been totally disabled or perma- nent 1 }' injured so they could not return to tbe service? Mr. Keleher: No, sir. Mr. Judson: You speak of gaps there. Is that crossings where the third rail is suspended? Mr. Keleher : Yes, sir, that is the opening between the third rail, the length of the engine, the length of the shoe, the third rail shoe case of the engine. Mr. Stone: So you bridge that over with a trolley? Mr. Keleher: Yes. Mr. Stone : That is in order to get the crossings across the tracks. I think that is all. Mr. Duncan: That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: Now I should like to put on Mr. Edwards, who is in Bety Line service in the Chicago terminal of the Baltimore & Ohio. F. A. Edwaeds was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: Where are you employed? Mr. Edwards: Baltimore & Ohio, Chicago Division, Chi- cago District, switch transfer service. Mr. Stone: How long have you been with the Baltimore & Ohio Bailroad Company? Mr. Edwards: Since the year 1886. Mr. Stone: As a promoted man? Mr. Edwards: No, sir, employed as a machinist's appren- tice. Mr. Stone: Then, you fired on the road? Mr. Edwards : I was employed as a fireman September 5th, 1894. Mr. Stone: How long did you fire? Mr. Edwards: I fired until July 7th, 1898. Mr. Stone: Then were promoted in the transfer service? Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. 383 Mr. Stone: How old are you? Mr. Edwards: 42. Mr. Stone : Explain to these gentlemen, in a general way, your duties. Of course, we all understand you have the cus- tomary preparing: of your engine and all that, so it is not necessary to take up our time with that part, but from the time you go to work, explain the nature of your work and what you have to contend with. Mr. Edwards : Well, to make myself understood by the Board, I would like to go into details a little bit, because it is not just exactly what road men and passenger men have to contend with. Chicago engineers are a body of district engi- neers that hold seniority rights in yard and transfer service. At different times when a new run is put on we bid in the dif- ferent runs according to our seniority. Mr. Stone : You hold no road rights at all ? Mr. Edwards : We do, since March 1st, 1900. Mr. Judson: I don't quite understand that term, "road rights"? Mr. Edwards : When 1 was promoted to an electric engineer in the Chicago District the Baltimore & Ohio hired their engi- neers for yard and transfer service only, and then they hired men for the road only, and they also, hired firemen for the road service and firemen for the yard service. On March 1st, 1900, there was an agreement entered into by the company and the engineers, whereby, the Chicago district engineers who held their seniority rights to March 1st, 1900, would hold seniority rights to March 1st 1900, both on the road and in the yard, and they would retain their road seniority and yard seniority from that date and the road engineers would also commence acquiring their yard seniority from March 1st, 1900 ; in other words, making a universal seniority from March 1st, and I want to state right here, before I go any further, to show you how the engineers like to f^tay in a certain locality where they are, and to show you they are not of a tendency to remove one another any more than they c;m possibly help, I want to say that there hasn't been one road man since he has acquired his yard service rights, since March 1st, 1900, who has ever put in a bid for a regular job in the Chi : cago District, until a month ago. They claim they had rather 384 ran their road, 150 miles than to make that 19.7 m'iles in the Chicago District. There hasn't been a man in the Chicago yard that has gone out on the road that was in the yard at that time. There have been some of the firemen lately, in the last year, that have gone clown to Garrett and have taken their road seniority. Mr. Judson : When you speak of ' ' seniority ' ' you mean the rules recognized by both the companies and the men. Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. I have here with me a seniority list such as was agreed to by the company and the men (producing a paper and exhibiting same to the Commission). Now, the engi- neers in the Chicago district, the regular men, when they bid in a job, so that they have a regular job, they most generally show up for the job as they are marked upon the board, the night be- fore, when they are going home. But they have to go through the same routine of business that the road man does with the ex- ception that the Chicago Terminal engineers have to fill their own grease cups, and we have to fill our lubricators, and we have to tend to all the departing duties of getting the engine ready that a road man would, with the exception of those that have a super- heater engine. We have not any of those in the yard service. And 1 will also state that, of late years — in the olden times, the engine used to be started at seven o'clock. There used to be a sort of procession of them. There was a great deal of time lost down in the yard starting the men to work one at a time. Since that time, it has been changed. The engines are started possibly one at seven o 'clock, one at 7 :10, one at 7 :20, 7 :30, 7 :45 and right on and so on with an intermission of five or ten minutes between each, which gives the local management in the yard a chance to put the assigned crews on the engines without causing any loss of time. A man that is in the transfer service in the City of Chicago, if he leaves the roundhouse and goes down to the yard, for ser- vice, he has switches that he has to contend with on the way down there. If he runs by one or runs through one of them, or if it should happen to be open and let him head in on the caboose track and hits anyone he is responsible. You have no switchman until you arrive at the yard. If you are in the trans- fer service and your train is ready to go, you couple on your train, pump up your air, and get your orders from your conductor 385 aild start. On the other hand, if your train is not ready, it makes no difference if you are in transfer service, if there are other short deliveries that you can make while they are getting the bills or making a switch in your train, or waiting for a car of stock, or two or three cars of stock, or perishable goods to come in, you are sent out on some other short delivery. In years gone by, it used to be customary for an engineer to stand there and wait until that time, allowing him time to make little handy repairs that would assist him in running his engine, such as little steam leaks, and possibly if his injector or tank holes were clogged in any way, he could clean that out. Those days have gone by. They also used to have small engines in the Chicago districts. Now there are a very few small engines and those in Chicago proper up at a place called Empire Slip, about half a mile from the Grand Central Station. The curves up there are very sharp and they use those small engines in switch- ing the coaches and making up their passenger trains. The larger engines could not very well do that. In the city they have put all these small engines, possibly three or four — there are two regular day engines and two regular night engines. Since the Baltimore & Ohio has taken over the Chicago Ter- minal Transfer Railway, it is part of — I don't know just exact- ly that I could explain it, other than to say they are not par- ticular about whose work they do. That is, the Baltimore & Ohio used to do Baltimore & Ohio work, but since they have taken that, why, the Baltimore & Ohio engines will do Pere Mar- quette work or Great Western work, or terminal work, it doesn't make a bit of difference, and they, in turn about, those other engines, will do Baltimore & Ohio work, or anything that has to be done, you do it, and in Chicago, up in the city proper, and hot only there but all over in the district of Chicago, in the switching district, we are watched continually by the smoke inspectors. We are compelled to burn hard coal. That is all that is given us, and they favor us very nicely, sometimes, by giving us a grade of coal that they call smokeless coal, and that does very well and stops the smoke inspectors from re- porting us as often as they would if we had the other kind. An. I not only the city smoke inspectors, but we are under watch by the Chicago smoke inspector hired by the company 386 to see thai: we don't make any unnecessary smoke, and also to jjive us the necessary instructions as to the economical use of the coal, and to see that we keep our smoke burners in proper condition— smoke suppressors, and see that we use them. 1 will also state lhat those smoke suppressors are very annoying on account of the jets entering into the combustion tubes in the firebox and making a sort of buzzing or roaring noise, and any possible time a locomotive engineer or fireman can shut off for a few minutes, it is a great relief, and possibly there are times lhat in taking a signal the fireman might pos- sibly forget to open it up or the engineer might forget to tell Jhim about it, and if anybody should happen to be around and -see an occurrence of that kind, we most generally hear of i 4 "; .sometimes in a manner of two or three weeks suspension. The Chicago engineers are bolLered more than those out around -South Chicago. Now, in regard to the larger engines, if the engines were built so that a man could run them with any comfort whatever, il would not be quite as hard, because it is certainly very hard lo run one of those large 2,200 engines weighing about 193,000 pounds in working order. They have some there weighing 208,500 pounds with 22 by 30 inch cylinders, and it is not quite so bad in transfer work with those large engines, but to use ihem in short switching, it is very hard work. You cannot throw the engine either in the forward motion or back without getting up to do it, and you cannot stand up to do the work all the time, because the roof of the cab is not high enough, and in taking the signals, as you are looking out the window that way the window is so low that it will invariably either knock your hat off or tip it to one side, or you will bump your head, and you kind of have to duck in and duck out, to keep from doing that, and you have to take your signals most generally looking hack over the tank. They are very large tanks and those road engines we have there and the dust will hamper you to a great extent, more so than small engines. We try to overcome that by wetting the coal down with a squirt hose, and the yard engines in Chicago, after they have been supplied with coal, they are now commencing to use some of the cinders that are dumped out of the front end. After you get a tank full of coal tliey o'.ve you one scoop full of cinders along with that. 387 That has a tendency to fly in the air very freely and make things rather unpleasant in the way of getting cinders into your eyes. The yard engines of South Chicago are not only yard engines, but they are compelled to do short deliveries. They go out over the Baltimore & Ohio main line to Indiana Harbor, a distance of seven miles and a half from South Chicago; to the city, which is 19.7 miles, and we cross fifteen or sixteen railroads from South Chicago to the city. We have, I believe, pretty nearly every type of a target and semaphore that there is on that 19 or almost 20 miles of track. We have the gates, we have the old style street crossing gates for some of the railroads that raise up and lower down; others swing around; some half swing around and also have a combination target at the top; we have the automatic, the electric, the lower quad- rant, the upper quadrant and the hand signals and stop boards and cross-overs. An engineer in Chicago working on the Bal- timore & Ohio delivers cars to the Illinois Central, Big Four,., and the Milwaukee, Northwest, Pennsylvania, Lake Shore, and I guess we can deliver to any railroad in Chicago right pretty near from the Baltimore & Ohio tracks since they acquired the new terminal. And in regard to our work, our work is con- tinuous. There are no stops whatever. The Chairman: How long do you work? Mr. Edwards : The yard engines they are trying very hard to get on as basis of ten hours, ten hours a day, and that is certainly enough hours of service in that kind of work. Mr. Stone: Is it always possible to get back from your transfer service in. ten hours? Do you not often get held out in a foreign yard somewhere? Mr. Edwards: In transfer service? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Edwards: Why, in transfer service the hours vary be- cause if you go into a foreign yard you are just the same as the yardmasters tell you, when you are in Rome do as the Eomans do. You have just got to stand there and wait and keep your eye right on the switch tender and catch the signal. They let you in in your turn and let you out in your turn, and if you are not ready or don't catch the signal, he will give you a stop sign, and then you, in other words, go to the bottom 388 of the list and wait until your turn conies again, because all the others will get a turn ahead of you, and the conductor doesn't like it and the engineer, himself, doesn't like it, because he is trying to get home and don't like to miss any signals, you know, out of the yard; and the transfer runs vary from 14 to 15 hours, somewhere along there. They have one yard job there they call a yard job but it isn't only a yard job, it works on the hump, there, making up eastbound trains. When there isn't anything to do there he makes deliveries to Indiana Har- bor, taking 15 or 20 cars out there, and bringing back the same number or thereabouts. Mr. Stone: How many other roads are you examined on, the time cards and the signals ? Mr. Edwards: When you are employed as locomotive engi- neer they examine you and they give you a book of rules for the different roads. We run over the Bock Island from South Chi- cago to the city, and we used to run over the Chicago terminal. 'That has been bought up by the Baltimore & Ohio. We have Bock Island, Chicago Terminal, Baltimore & Ohio and C. J., that is the stockyards road. We have to go down into the stockyards and you have to know your way in the stockyards. You have to know just where to stop and to look for signals. The transfer runs that go in there, of course, their times vary ; sometimes they go in and get out quicker than they can at other times. Mr. Stone : But the men in the transfer service go at regular time, or do you go whenever the transfers are to be delivered? Mr. Edwards : As nearly as possible they try to give us regu- lar hours and they try to run the trains out at a regular time, but on account of stock coming in off the road — to illustrate, the early stock run would start at six o'clock and then, maybe, it would work that way for two or three days. That night, when the engineer came in, they would notify him if they wanted him be- fore that. If they want him before that, they will call him by tele- phone or send the caller for him, but he is supposed to show up that regular time unless he is notified or it is marked on the board that he is not wanted until eight o'clock. Mr. Stone : What class of engine do vou use for transfer ser- vice? Mr. Edwards : Consolidated, 22 by 30. 389 Mr. Stone: How many loads do you handle with those en- gines ? Mr. Edwards : That varies. I have hauled as high as 70 loads in transfer service, and then I have made the trip over the same route with smaller trains. Trains are averaging a little larger in the last two or three years than they did before on account of the larger power. Mr. Eidlitz : About what are the average hours you work ? Mr. Edwards : In transfer or yard? Mr. Eidlitz: In either? Mr. Edwards : Well, in yard service there they are endeavor- ing to pull those down to a ten hour basis as nearly as possible. Mr. Eidlitz : And, in the transfer service ? Mr. Edwards : In the transfer service I should judge it would average about 14 or 15 hours. The Chairman : Do you make that time, do you mean? Mr. Edwards : I am in the yard in transfer service. The Chairman : Are yon describing, now, your hours or the hours generally? Mr. Edwards : I have just described the hours that the en- gineers make in the yard. The Chairman : Or only your hours ? Mr. Edwards : I have worked in the yard lately, yes, sir, on a ten hour job. Mr. Eidlitz : He is giving you his experience and those of his colleagues, who are working on the same basis that he is. Mr. Willard : Do you get overtime 1 Mr. Edwards : Whenever we make it, yes. Mr. Willard : How long do you have to work before von get it? Mr. Edwards : Have to work ten hours and thirty minutes to get eleven. Mr. Willard: Ten hour day? Mr. Edwards : Yes ; ten hour day basis. Mr. Stone : 31 minutes gives you an hour. Is that the way of the overtime? Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz : They give 30 minutes in the morning ? Mr. Edwards: Don't give any preparatory time. The Lake Shore and Pennsylvania both give it, I understand. 390 Mr. Judson: When does your pay commence? Mr. Edwards : Whenever I am called to leave. 1 am sup- posed to get my engine ready on my own time. Mr. Judson : Then, your time card starts when you take the engine ? Mr Edwards: My time starts, according to the agreement with the company, when I leave with the engine. Now, no mat- ter how much I do or how little I do before that time, my time don't commence until I g - et on that engine and leave, and the engineers are called to leave at certain times. Mr. Judson: Is there a different practice on the other roads ? Mr. Edwards: The road men get their grease cups filled. The Chicago district men fill their own. Mr. Willard: Do you always do that before you go out, or do you do that at periods during the day when you happen to be waiting signals? Mr. Edwards : We never have a chance to fill them during the day. Mr. Willard: Never stop long enough through the day to fill them? Mr. Edwards: We take the time to get down and screw them down if we think the pin is going to run warm. Mr. Stone : That is all. : That is all. Any other question, gentlemen, you want to Mr. Judson Mr. Stone : ask! Mr. Judson Mr. Stone : Did you tell what you got? I forgot to ask him that. What are your wages ? Mr. Edwards: 41 V2 cents an hour. Mr. Stone: With a minimum of ten hours a day? Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: That is for yard and transfer work! Mr. Edwards: That is ten hours service. Don't make any difference which you are in. If you work ten hours transfer- ring you get the same rate. Mr. Shaw: You say the average day's transfer work is from 14 to 15 hours? Mr. Edwards: That is during the heavy rush of business,. 391 and it varies. If they do like they did during the rash in the coal, of course, they are longer. Mr. Shaw: And, you are paid 41 cents for the additional hours or is there some additional compensation for overtime? Mr. Edwards : Whenever you make overtime they pay you for it. Mr. Shaw : Yes ; but do they pay you at the hourly rate of 41 cents per hour! Mr. Edwards: Yes, sir; 41 cents per hour. Mr. Eidlitz: Did I understand you to say when you work 10y 2 hours you get paid for 11! Mr. Edwards: Yes; the half hour. In other words, if I go to work and I quit at 6:30, I get 11 hours for it, with one hour out for dinner, unless they pay the dinner hour, and if you work the dinner hour, the dinner hour is in addition. They allow you thirty minutes to eat. Mr. Judson: If you work 29 minutes you do not get any- thing! Mr. Edwards: You don't get anything. They are very good about that. Mr. Judson: They do not try to take advantage of that? Mr. Edwards : No ; outside of Chicago — I understand there are those instances, but we don't have them to contend with. Mr. Duncan: How man}' days do you average a month? Mr. Edwards : I try to make 26 days a month but it comes around about 22 or 23. The Chairman: What is your average earning a month! Mr. Edwards : If I put in 26 working days it is $107. Mr. Willard : On that basis, you would not make any over- time at all, would you! Mr. Edwards: No, just straight — ten hour days, and it is very seldom yard engines are allowed to make any overtime. Mr. Judson: In the yard service you have the advantage of not being detained away from home? Mr. Edwards: Yes. Mr. Judson : That is something the road men are subjected to, and you are relieved from that expense! Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. We all carry a dinner pail. Mr. Judson: How much time do vou have for dinner or 392 hour, that is, if they want to deprive us of the dinner hour, lunch in the middle of the day? Mr. Edwards: If they do not want us to work the dinner we have 60 minutes ; if we work the dinner hour, we are allowed 30 minutes to eat. Mr. Judson: That depends upon the pressure of business, I suppose!? 1 Mr. Edwards: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Why do you ask for a higher rate of pay for belt line or transfer service than straight switching ser- vice? Mr. Edwards : Well, it is because there are greater respon- sibilities and the duties are more numerous in the way of watch- ing blocks and targets and switches; you are working under three different superintendents ; you are working under, at least, two or three different yardmasters. Mr. Willard : Just let me ask, as a matter of fact in Chicago you are under the terminal superintendent, are you not, now, the Baltimore & Ohio and the Baltimore & Ohio Chicago Ter- minal ? Mr. Edwards : The last Superintendent of Terminals we had, I believe, was Mr. E. J. Schwellenbach, and he died, and since then we have had but a general yardmaster. Mr. Willard : And one superintendent now covers the Balti- more & Ohio at Chicago? Mr. Edwards: Not over the Rock Island tracks. Mr. Willard : No, not over the Rock Island tracks, but you just pass over them. Mr. Edwards : Oh, yes. Mr. Morrissey: Is transfer service more nearly like road service than straight switching service? Mr. Edwards : Yes, it is a great deal more like road service, because you have the long train ; you have the air to watch, and you have more, I believe, than some of these men that have given their testimony on road service ; we have more blocks and targets to contend with on that 19.7 miles than they do on the road; we have to stop and start our trains quite often, and there are a good many places where we come to a full stop, and we have to be real careful in starting that train, so as not to 393 pull out a drawbar, because if a drawbar is pulled out, we have to explain it, and there is detention on that account. Mr. Judson: Just what is the difference between what yon term yard and transfer service, and switching' service ? Do you mean by switching service simply in the yards of one com- pany, or what! Mr. Edwards: Well, switching at various yards for the. same company. In South Chicago, they have a yard at South Chicago and then at Wolf Lake another yard, and then a yard at a place called Curtis, iy 2 miles out and then they have what they called the Hammond yards. Mr. Judson: The service in making up a freight train is- switching cars from one track to another, you call that switch- ing service ? Mr. Edwards: Yes, sir, that is where an engine breaks up the incoming trains, separates them, and puts them from one track to another. Mr. Judson : But where you take a train and carry it from the tracks of one line over a belt road to the tracks of another, that would be transfer service? Mr. Edwards : Not necessarily to the tracks of another. If we leave South Chicago and go 19.7 miles up to the Chicago yard with a train — Mr. Morrissey: He said over the tracks of another road. Mr. Edwards: Yes, that would cover it. They have a,' caboose, the same as a road train. Mr. Duncan: Are there any preferred runs in the switch- ing or transfer service? Mr. Edwards : Well, in this way ; if the old men gobble up some of the nice easy jobs in the yard, then, of course, the next man according to seniority, will try to pick the best one on trans- fer runs ; possibly, it will not be on account of the place where the run is going, but it might possibly be on account of the con- ductor; he likes to work under that conductor; because these transfer runs are all under the same pressure, and if we had regular transfer runs, that would be another thing; they would like to try to pick a regular engine. They try to keep regular engines as much as they can on those runs, but they cannot da, it. Circumstances alter cases, and one day thev will have to 394 -lay an engine off and they will give the first engine they can .get hold of to send out on that run, and it will not only put the first engineer away from his regular engine, but the next man too until the next day, until they will straighten it out . again. Mr. Judson : Just what do you mean by the term you used just now? Mr. Edwards: What is that? Mr. Judson: The nice easy jobs. Mr. Edwards: I say, they don't pick them out on account of being nice easy jobs. Mr. Judson : But I would like to know, from an engineer 's point of view, what are the nice easy jobs? Mr. Edwards : Why, they are the jobs we lost in davs gone .by. Mr. Stone: They are gone? Mr. Edwards: Yes. Mr. Judson: Do you mean you do not have any such jobs now!? Mr. Edwards : They are perpetual, they are as near per- petual — Mr. Judson: I mean what kind of service do you consider in the engineer's work is preferred to others? Mr. Edwards : Ten hours service for me ; that is any job that is ten hours, or eight hours; if they have an eight hour job, that is the one preferable to me. Now there are men who possibly might not want that; they might want ten hours. You you find different men with different natures that way, and what will suit one will not suit another. The Chairman : You say some like the ten hour better than the eight hour job? Mr. Edwards : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : If they get paid for it. The Chairman : But they earn more in ten hours than eight. Mr. Edwards : There is no such thing as an eight hour job in the Chicago yards. The Chairman : But, you spoke of an eight hour job. Mr. Edwards : I say, if there was, I would prefer the eight "hour job. 395 The Chairman : You would prefer the eight hour job with teit, hours pay ? Mr. Edwards: I would prefer the eight hour job with ten- hours pay? The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Edwards : There is no question about that. Mr. Judson : But I am not cleared up on that question of the- tice easy job. From your point of view what would you con- sider — Mr. Edwards : May be I can enlighten you. I have been hold- ing a job that people call a raw hiding job. Mr. Judson: "What is that! Mr. Edwards : That is, we go all the time. They say, ' ' I anr. surprised at you ; why don 't you take some other job where you don't have to stand right up to the plate and bat them over the- plate all the time"? I said, "I prefer this job. It is a ten hour job and I like it, and as long as I am satisfied, everybody else ought to be tickled to death, that is, the hours are what I like. ' ' Mr. Duncan: Which is supposed to be the better job, switch- tug or transfer? Mr. Edwards: It is according to the engineer. As I say, ■if some job is bid in that an engineer really wants, he will have- to take the next best. What he would decide would be the next best is hard to tell. Mr. Duncan: Are not these nice easy jobs you speak of, in. the fast freight service rather than in the switching service? Mr. Edwards: Oh, no. Of course, as far as pulling that re- verse bar over and back, you do not have to do that. When you have one of those road engines you have to get clear up and go- ■w:iy to the front of the cab and pull that bar back, and then throw ' it ahead. Of course there is more hard work in the yard, but you have got your eye right on the switchman who gives signals while in transfer sendee you have to keep your eye on your water, on your fireman, on your smoke, and on your targets. Mr. Duncan: You say, it is the question of the individual as to which is the preferable service the transfer or switching service ? Mr. Edwards : Well, it is according just as they like, but the- transfer, there is no question about it, it is more of a strain on. a man. 396 Mr. Stone: I have one man to put on, Mr. Chairman,, that is Mr. J. F. Fagan, in the yard service on the Pennsylvania at Philadelphia. John F. Fagan was called as a witness and testified as .'follows : Mr. Fagan : I am employed on the elevated railroad, of the Pennsylvania Railroad. I am sixty-one years old and I have been running thirty-one years. Mr. Stone: All the time for the Pennsylvania Company! Mr. Fagan: All the time for the Pennsylvania Company. Mr. Stone: In the same yard"? Mr. Fagan; Not altogether, no sir. For the space of one year, I was running to Harrisburg, on freight. Mr. Stone: How long have you been in the Philadelphia terminal, running in the yard? Mr. Fagan: Twenty -nine years. Mr. Stone: I wish you would explain to these gentlemen some of your duties. Of course we understand you have the usual care to get your engine ready, and all that. Explain to them some of your work. Mr. Fagan : In the first place, I run what we call a double crewed engine, relieving one another. The engine works con- tinuously for twenty-four hours, and there is a night man and a day man. I take the day light portion of it. I relieve him in the morning — I am supposed to relieve him in the morning at 6.00 A. M. and work continuously until 6.00 P. M., with an intermission of a meal hour between the hours of eleven and one. Mr. Stone: Not all the time between eleven and one? One hour in. that period of two hours? Mr. Fagan: That is it, between eleven and one. If we do not get out to the ash pit until after 12.30 we get paid for the hour. We are supposed to have the engine ready for service at the end of thirty minutes, providing the whole crew does that. Now, there are instances where the yardmaster finds we are not going to make the dinner hour ; this will be at Broad 397 Street station, which is a mile and a half from the ash pit; but, if they find that we are likely not to get over to the ash pit until after 12.30, they cut the crew off and send them to dinner at that time, then, I take the engine to the ash pit. The hostler cleans the fires after I get to the ash pit, and I am supposed to get down and examine my engine and see if there are any immediate repairs to be made to it, and go and make out a work report for the same. Whether there is any work to be done or not, I have to make out the report. I then make out my time card. Mr. Stone: Time slip for the day? Mr. Fagan: The time slip for the day. Then I walk over to the time clerk and have him sign it, O. K. the slip. He signs it. I then eat my meal. By the time I get my meal done it is time then to go and hunt the engine and get it pre- pared for the afternoon service, and I can say that I am liable to find my engine anywhere in a radius of 300 yards from the ash pit. The hostler cleans the fires and moves them up on the track according to the number on. the pit, and you have got to hunt them. The hostler pulls the engine over there and goes away from it; there is nobody there responsible for the engine at all. I go then and prepare the engine for work and have it ready at the expiration of one hour. Whereas, virtually I only get from thirty to forty minutes out of the hour ; I do not get the hour, because by the time I examine my engine and make out my work report and time slip, eat my dinner and oil the engine, and have it ready for the afternoon service, why there is very nearly thirty minutes taken up of that time. Mr. Stone : What class of work are you engaged in shifting? Mr. Fagan: Why, we make up the passenger trains and shift the passenger trains to and fro at the Broad Street sta- tion, between the Broad Street station and West Philadelphia; that is a matter of a mile and a hlf. We take them over there and bring them back and make them up in the other trains and take them back again, and we may, at any time, help at Broad Street shifting trains over to and fro, pulling them out of the station and kicking them in again. Mr. Stone : That is quite a busy point isn 't it ? Mr. Fagan: I should say it was. Within a radius, of two miles, I would state, gentlemen., that I have 517 signals to con- 398 tend with, in all classes of positions, from the dwarf to the upper quadrant, we have the upper and lower quadrants and automatics of all descriptions, and that is the number in the distance of two miles, that we have, 517 signals to contend with. And, the consequence is that it takes a man the whole time to have his eye on the signal in the direction in which he i& headed. Of course, I am generally headed. east, and I watch the eastern side of the engine, and the fireman watches back- ward on the western side. He is supposed to look out for that. Mr. Stone : How many trains a day do you have to contend TtiUi? Mr. Fagen: In twenty-four hours I think there are 574 trains besides the extra movements, all the pulling of trains out of the depot, and shifting them back in there, and backing them in just as the chances are. Mr. Stone : This dinner hour that you speak of, do you get paid for any part of it! Mr. Fagan : No, sir, not unless we do not get on the ash pit until after 12:30; it has got to be after 12:30—12:30 don't do. It will have to be a couple of seconds the other side of 12 :30. We cannot work that on them at all. And that is left to the engine starter, the clerk on the other side of the coal wharf. He cannot see me, but he guesses at it. Mr. Stone : He guesses the time ? Mr. Fagan : Yes, he will make it many a time 12 :29, 12 :29 ] /o, . 12 :29%,so mething like that. He will never make it 12 :30. He is always sure to be on that side of the house. Mr. Stone : Do you do any freight switching at all ? Mr. Fagan : Not much if any. Mr. Stone: Nearly all passenger service? Mr. Fagan: Very much passenger equipment; unless there , are times that we have to go and bring in some coal for the coal ..wharf. Mr. Judson: Where is the line — where does it ran from! Mr. Fagan : It is in West Philadelphia — from West Philadel- phia to Broad Street, in Philadelphia. It is a matter of two miles. Mr. Stone : It simply means switching equipment in and out of the station and storage. 399 Mr. Fagan : They have a storage yard at West Philadelphia, and they likewise have one at 21st Street. Mr. Stone : Do you have the same class of engine all the time, the same engine? Mr. Fagan : Well, not the same engine. Generally, the same engine. We rim the B-8 engine. That is the class of shifting engine in the service there. It requires it too, for that, because we have to handle all those heavy trains that come in there. Mr. Stone : That is their new heavy switch engine ? Mr. Fagan : Yes, 20 by 24, about 144,000 pounds in working order. Mr. Stone: Do those enignes have the sloping tank or the high tank? Mr. Fagan: Sloping tank. I will state, furthermore, that I am supposed to work on six different divisions, within a radius of 8.6 miles. That takes in our division. That will be on the Philadelphia Terminal Division, the Philadelphia Division, the Maryland Division, the Central Division, the New York Division and the Schuylkill Valley Division. I am supposed to understand the signals on all those divisions within that radius — the position and functions of them. Mr. Stone: And you have to be posted on the timie of the trains ! Mr. Fagan : Time of the trains and special rules in the time table to the amount of about 110. Mr. Stone : That is in addition to the book of rules? Mr. Fagan: That is in addition to the book of rules. We have about 173 of those rules. Not the whole book of rules, be- cause they do not all pertain to my department. Mr. Stone: I think that is all, Mr. Chairman, that I care to ask him. Mr. Eidlitz: What remuneration do you get Mr. Fagan! Mr. Fagan : $4.78 a day, 43% cents an hour. Mr. Morrissey: For a twelve hour day? Mr. Fagan: Well, it is not really a twelve hour day. It is computed on the basis of eleven hours It is supposed to be a ien hour day and we are paid for eleven hours. All our work- ing days are supposed to come on the basis of ten hours, arid we are paid eleven hours. 400 Mr. Stone : You are paid for a ten hour day and one hour overtime; is that correct? Mr. Fagan: Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: Do you work eleven hours or ten hours? Mr. Fagan: Eleven hours. We go to work at 6:00 A. M. and are relieved at 6:00 P. M., with one hour for meals. Mr. Morrissey: What would you get for the twelfth hour? Mr. Fagan: 43y 2 cents. Mr. Morrissey :, One-eleventh of $4.78? Mr. Fagan: Yes. $4.78 for eleven hours. Mr. Judson: 43y 2 cents, you say, for each hour? Mr. Fagan : Yes, sir ; 43% cents for each hour. Mr. Eidlitz: Does your engine work every day, Sundays included ? Mr. Fagan: Every other Sunday. Sometimes it is every other Sundays, and sometimes we work two and off one. It is just according to the adjustment of the schedule of engines. They are leaving four engines off every Sunday. They drop four off on Sundays; they feel as if they can do the work with four less on Sunday, and there is a schedule made out for that. Mr. Eidlitz : Do you know what your average earnings are, per month? Mr. Fagan: About $134; somewhere in that neighborhood, I think it is. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask you a little further about that dinner hour. Do I understand that you do not get paid for any part of the hour unless you arrive at 12:30? Mr. Fagan: Not a particle, not a particle. Mr. Stone: From the time you quit work until you get back, is it one full hour — from the time you cut off and leave for the cinder track until you return to service? Mr. Fagan: From the time I arrive at the ash pit, just one hour from then, I have to be ready to go. I am suppose* to have the engine in working order; I am not allowed any time for oiling. I have to do that on my own time in order to keep from getting on the carpet, as Mr. Jackson said. Mr. Morrissey: What did you say your average monthly wage was? Mr. Fagan: It runs in the neighborhood of $134. 401 Mr. Morrissey: In order to produce that result, you must work 28 days of eleven hours each ? Mr. Fagan : That is it. Mr. Morrissey: That includes an average of two Sundays in each month? Mr. Fagan: Yes. Mr. Morrissey: Do you belong to any church! Mr. Fagan: I do, and I go when I am at home, and when I cannot go, I say my prayers going to work. Mr. Morrissey: Then, in order to get this result in wages there are at least 26 Sundays of the year that you are not able to attend church, are there not? Mr. Fagan: Yes, but I get permission to go away; I ask the man at the church to forgive me for that, and he does-— he passes me over. Mr. Duncan: Have you any rule about getting off every tenth day! Mr. Fagan: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Do you get off and get paid for that tenth day! Mr. Fagan: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: You do not perform any service on that day? Mr. Fagan: Not any. Mr. Judson : What is that ; by special arrangement ? Mr. Fagan : By special arrangement with the General Man- ager, Mr. Pugh, at that time it was. Mr. Willard: That is three days a month? Mr. Fagan: That is three days a month; yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Do you pick out those yourself? Mr. Fagan: No, they are assigned to us. We pick out our turn at them. Mr. Willard: When you work until 12:31, at noon, do you get paid for the noon hour then? Mr. Fagan: We get paid for the noon hour, then. Mr. Willard: How much time are you given then, within which to get your luncheon? Mr. Fagan: Of course just the same as what I am. Mr. Willard : So that, if you happen to be until 12 :31 get- ting to the ash pit — Mr. Fagan: If the crew and the engine together makes- 402 that hour, as is often the case, then we only have thirty min- utes when we have to be prepared to be back to the shifting .point, in thirty minutes. Mr. Willard : But the point is this, if you fail to reach the ash pit and be relieved before 12.31, then you are paid for the noon hour. Mr. Fagan: Paid for the noon hour. Mr. Willard : And given an hour for your lunch, just the ..same f Mr. Fagan : Yes — no. Mr. Willard : Half an hour ? Mr. Fagan : Half an hour ; 30 minutes, yes. Mr. Stone! I would like to ask a little more about those .days. What men on that road have three days a month? Mr. Fagan : Engineers and firemen. Mr. Stone: In passenger service, or just that yard? Mr. Fagan: Just that district, those 11 engines. Mr. Stone : Just those 11 engines get three days a month? Mr. Fagan : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : That is a good practice. I think we will try per- haps to improve on that, on some of these other roads. Mr. Fagan: That was granted bv Mr. Pugh, when he was General Manager, in 1892 or 1893. Mr. Stone : And still followed to this day, is it? Mr. Fagan : And still followed to this day, although it has been tried to be put out of practice, but they haven't succeeded yet. Mr. Duncan : If any of those ten days fall on Sunday do you -get them ? Mr. Fagan : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Of course, that gives you a chance to go to church. Mr. Fagan : Yes, then I can go to church. Mr. Duncan: In addition to the 26 Sundays that you get off? Mr. Fagan : Oh, yes, that is another day that I go to church. If I don't get to church, as I said before, I will certainly say my prayers anyhow. Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Fagan? I don't forget that part of it. If I was off on the 8th, my lay off day would come on the 8th, it would be 8th, 403 18th and 28th that month, so you see I know just exactly my lay off days. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman : That is one very important ques- tion we failed to get out of these freight men, how many days they had to go to church. I don't know whether these freight men ever see a church, the men that are running the pool, any- way. Mr. Fagan: Well, the Y. M. 0. A. Mr. Stone: Do you know of any other class of men on the system that get those days off, for a holiday, each month? Mr. Fagan : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Just your group of eleven crews there! Mr. Fagan : Yes ; we were granted that as a concession. We had asked the management for an eight hour performance there, on the elevated railroad, as all the yardmasters, telegraphers and lever men all had an eight hour trick, as we call it. Mr. Judson : Eight hour what ? Mr. Van Hise : Turn. Mr. Fagan: Eight hour service. So we asked for the same thing, and after a great deal of conversation they stated it was too costly; they couldn't do it. The railroads couldn't do it at all; they couldn't stand it. So we made the difference between the two, and Mr. Pugh asked me if there was anything else I would like to have. I said, if I couldn't get eight hours, I said, let me have something else, and I asked him for this concession, and he granted it in that manner. Mr. Stone: All right. It is the only case of the kind I know of anywhere in this country. Mr. Fagan : Well, it took a year to do it. Mr. Stone: No matter how long it took to do it, you have it. Mr. Fagan : Yes, we succeeded. Mr. Shaw: In what year was that granted? Mr. Fagan: 1892 or 1893. Mr. Morrissey: Well, at that time did you figure out that you had increased your pay by being given some days off, on which you were not permitted to earn any money? Mr. Fagan: Well, previous to getting the three days, we got $3.12 a day and Mr. Gucar then — we were paid then by the day, but Mr. G-ucar, the Superintendent, in order to offset this 404 > matter, ordered the time clerks to pay us by the hour. When we went to see him again he was willing to grant us the eight hour movement, but he says, ' ' recollect you will get eight hours pay." I said we didn't come for that. I said we didn't want '■our wages reduced; we want them advanced. Mr. Morrissey: But if you needed more money for in- creased cost of living and the company offered you, in lieu of it, some days off to think about it, you were not helped very ,mueh, were you? Mr. Fagan: No, indeed; not a particle. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact then when you come to boil it down that that was simply a compromise, or a trade? Mr. Fagan: That is all it was, a compromise. We were let down easy. Cross-Examination : Mr. Duncan: But, you get paid for that day, don't you? Mr. Fagan: Oh, yes. Mr. Duncan: And you get three dollars and 12 cents, was "it, you said, in 1892 ? Mr. Fagan : Previous to that. Mr. Duncan: Previous to that? Mr. Fagan: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And, you are now making $4.78? Mr. Fagan: Yes. Mr. Judson : But, now you get no pav for the dav you lay off? Mr. Fagan: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Certainly, he does. Mr. Fagan: Those three days a month. Mr. Judson: You are paid the same as the other days? Mr. Fagan : Yes, we claimed them, for a rest. Mr. Van Hise: Even if it comes on Sunday? Mr. Fagan: Even if it comes on Sunday, yes, no matter -what day. Mr. Duncan: So you got $3.12, back there in 1892 when r you got this concession that they gave you of one day every ten days, for which they paid you? Mr. Fagan : Yes, certainly. 405 Mr. Duncan : Now, you are getting $4.78 a day and still get the three days overtime and still get paid for it on the in- creased wage basis! Mr. Fagan: Yes, sir; it has never been called off at all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Stone: I have just a final witness, Mr. Chairman, a Mr. Daniels, an engineer of the New York Central in the yards, right here in New York City, and that is the last witness I shall have. Wtlliam Daniels was called as a witness, and testified as/ follows : Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, I would like to correct that statement. There is one other witness, but we will try to get • them both through so as to adjourn in time. Mr. Daniels, state your name, age and where yon work? Mr. Daniels : William Daniels, 55 years old. I have worked for the New York Central 34 years and 6 months ; an engineer 31 years, and I fired three years and a half. At the present time, I am employed in switching service at the station known as 130th Street, on the west side, North River. There are also two other yards, 72nd Street yard and 33rd Street yard. The service in these yards differs somewhat, and I will endeavor to outline the duties required of me. I work 12 consecutive hours. I relieve my man at 6.00 in the morning. 130th Street station is a very importnat milk station and the majority of times when I relieve my man he is still working at the milk trains on their return trip, and I relieve him while the engine is in service, and I continue to switch these mill trains and make them up until such time as we can find time to get away, and at that time we go to the hydrant and fill our tank with water. I have one of the latest type switch engines, B-10-U en- gine, about 90 tons, I believe; a square tank, and of the latest valve movement. 406 While we are getting water, that is the time in which I oil her up and look over her. Then we start in and go up in what is called the foundry yard and switch out meat cars and other perishable cars in placing orders. There are nine dif- ferent meat houses over there, and we are obliged to have those cars in place when we go down before these meat houses to place them. We do almost all our placing with a stake. The stake is an article used that we put against the front beam of the engine and against the corner of the cars. After we have finished at that, we start in with the other dead freight and get those also in placing order and place them in the different working tracks. This work continues until such time as it is available for us to be sent in to our dinner. That occurs any- where from 11:00 o'clock to 1:00 or sometimes 2:00 o'clock, whichever is the most convenient, regarding the work. It does not make much difference as to that, because we are always paid for our dinner hour, in view of the fact that, in order to fa- cilitate the work and to avoid extra expense to the company, it was mutually agreed between them and myself and the fire- men, some years ago, that we clean the fire and attend to the hopper and the ashes during the dinner hour. Previous to that, it was necessary for the engine to run to 72nd Street, where there are hostlers and a pit provided for cleaning the fire. That occupied too much time and, in the event of there being perish- able cars there and other cars arriving, we would have to go to Spuyten Duyvil or some other place and a great delay was experienced. So by keeping the engine there constantly and cleaning the fire there she is always ready for service. I wish to say, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, that I do not want to create any wrong impression relative to this cleaning of fires, because it was mutually agreed between us, and I have never refused to do it. The company, of course, have compen- sated us to that extent of 41 cents an hour for doing it. But in that time we clean the fire, and tend to the hopper, oil the engine up, drain out the lubricator and refill it and eat our lunch and are ready for duty within the limit of 60 minutes. After that time we come out, and if there are no special orders for any cars we again take water and then start in at the afternoon work, which consists of very much the same as the 407 morning work, in placing these cars and switching them in ro- tation. We have no transfering at that yard. Then, we work until it is time for us to — at five o'clock generally, we start to get our cars together to take them into 72nd Street yard, which consists of time freight cars, symbol cars, and so forth; and then I am relieved at six o 'clock that night, at the 72nd Street yard. I wish to say, of course, relative to the engine that I have, she is one of the latest type, but a very hard engine to handle. The space in which I stand to perform my duty is less than one foot. Mr. Stone : Do you mean by that that it is less than one foot in width, the clearance between the reverse lever and the side of the cab? Mr. Daniels: That is the place I have to stand in, yes. I cannot stand there, and I usually have to stand behind the lever and operate it that way. And we also have at 130th Street de- rails and some signals, mostly all caution signals, only two positive signals, and of course these latest type engines have a square tank which has its advantages, as well as its disadvan- tages. The advantage is that we are oftentimes privileged to Tun ten hours without taking water if the business calls for it, and then again, as our good brother said, we are handicapped in- seeing the derails and signals, because we are obliged to lean out of the side of the cab, and we cannot see over this square "tank. It has a tendency to work a little hardship on us from those lines. In the 72nd Street yard, the conditions relative to the noon hour and the work are somewhat different. They work there, as a general thing, ten hours, and some eleven. Those who work ten hours place their engine on the dump pit, we will say, at six o'clock, and then she is attended to and coaled up and watered and sanded and at seven o'clock the opposite crew come out and take it. While I say seven o 'clock, he is supposed to be ready for the yard for duty at seven o 'clock. There is no time, that I know of, that is allowed for preparation. Nevertheless, he is supposed to be there and know that he has water and coal, that the lubri- cator is filled. He has to do that himself, and it should be proper that he should try his injectors to see whether they are in work- ing order, and also try his brakes and start his pump going, and 408 see that those things are properly adjusted before he enters into the service of the yard, in order to avoid delay after reach- ing there. They have in the 72nd Street yard also a new style of switch, known among the railroad men as the puzzle switch ; one lever throws four points, and another lever adjusts and readjusts the frog. The location of those points and the frog is indicated by a blade which turns either towards you green or red for main track, and green or yellow for the yard service. Those men, as a general thing, never work for 12 hours. There are one or two jobs, I believe, that are eleven hour jobs, but in the evenlb that the work should require it and they work eleven hours, they receive one hour's over pay for their noon hour just the same as I do ; but they do not have to clean the fire. There is no one on the other side that has to do it. And, I don't know t;hat I would have to do it if I did not want to, but I have never found any fault about doing it. Mr. Stone: Then, you simply do hard heavy switching all day? Mr. Daniels : Yes, sir, all day. Mr. Stone : Busy every moment? Mr. Daniels : Every moment. Mr. Stone : What do you receive per day? Mr. Daniels : For the 12 hours, $4.92. Mr. Stone : Do you work Sundays ? Mr. Daniels : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Six days a week? Mr. Daniels : Six days a week. That is one of the reasons why I like to keep the job because there is no Sunday work. Mr. Stone: What is your average monthly wage? Mr. Daniels : About $127. Mr. Stone: I don't think there are any questions I want to ask, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Duncan : No questions. (Witness excused). Mr. Stone: Mr. Walpole is in yard service on the Boston & Maine, and I would like to call him. 409 T. F. Walpole was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone : State your age, and how long you have been em- ployed. Mr. Walpole : I have been running an engine for 24 years past. M r. Stone : An engineer 24 years ! Mr. Walpole : I have been in the service 28 years. Mr. Stone : Fired four years ? Mr. Walpole : Three years and six months. Mr. Stone : Have you been in yard service, all the time ? Mr. Walpole : No, sir, about seven years. Mr. Stone: What yard are you running in? Mr. Walpole : Mechanicsville yard, Mechanicsville, New York. Mr. Stone: How old are you! Mr. Walpole : 47. > Mr. Morrissey: Is this the Boston & Maine, or Delaware & Hudson! Mr. Walpole: Boston & Maine, Fitchburg Division. Mr. Stone : What kind of work are you doing in that yard ? Mr. Walpole: Heavy freight switching. Mr. Stone: How many hours a day do you work? Mr. Walpole : We register on duty at 6 P. M. and off duty at 5 :30, or are supposed to. Mr. Stone: In the morning! Mr. Walpole: Yes. Mr. Stone: Night switching! Mr. Walpole: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Every night! Mr. Walpole: Every night. Mr. Stone : You are one man then that probably does not . get to church on Sunday. Mr. Walpole : Yes, sir, I do. Mr. Stone: You do? Mr. Walpole : I can work nights and go to church on Sun- day. The Chairman: A little louder, please. Mr. Walpole : Yes, sir, I can work nights and go to church- oil Sunday. I. go to church early. 410 Mr. Stone: What pay do you receive for this 11 hours .and 30 minutes! Mr. Walpole : 11 hours and 30 minutes ! Mr. Stone : You say you go to work at six o 'clock ! Mr. Walpole: 1 go to work at six o'clock, and if we work the dinner hour we get a day and three hours ; but that is, in the yard where we are not relieved from responsibility. Mr. Stone: You will have to talk louder than that. Mr. Walpole: If I go to work at 6 P. M. and work until 5:30 P. M. or 6 o'clock A. M. and work the dinner hour, con- tinuous time, I would get a day and three hours. Mr. Mdlitz : How often do you do that ! Mr. Walpole: Every night. Mr. Morrissey: A day and three hours'? ' Mr. Walpole : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How do you figure that out? Mr. Walpole: Continuous time. Mr. Stone: Well, it is only 12 hours. Mr. Walpole: Well, when we work continuous hours, a days work is ten hours, but one hour is added for the meal liour. Mr. Stone: That is eleven. Mr. Walpole : Then our overtime commences earlier in the day on continuous time ; on a ten hour day it would be 4 :30 and 5 :30, 4 :30 on the thirty minutes, and the last hour would be 5 :30, which gives you a day and two hours, and one hour added for the meal hour. Mr. Stone : Well, what do you receive for this night work? Mr. Walpole: For a day and three hours I get $5.20. Mr. Stone: $5.20? Mr. Walpole: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You work every night of the month? Mr. Walpole: Yes, sir, unless I lay off. The job works every night. Mr. Stone: Then, that makes you about — Mr. Walpole : $36.40 a week, if I work every night, but, of course, the day and three hours is not a guarantee; you have to work it to get it, but that is the day. Mr. Eidlitz: About $150 a month? Mr. Walpole: Well, if we get the day and three hours every 411 day, it would be in the neighborhood of $156, I should say; somewhere along in there. The Chairman: Do you average that a month! Mr. Walpole: No, sir. The Chairman: How much do you average? Mr. Walpole: We do not always get the three hours, but. when business is good, we do, if we follow the job. Mr. Stone: Somewhere in the neighborhood of $150 a month. The Chairman : But he does not average that every month, does he? Mr. Walpole: No, sir. Of course all jobs in the yard do not pay that. A day's work is ten hours at $4.00 a day, and 40 cents an hour for overtime. Mr. Stone: That is the point I am wanting to bring out; if you only worked a ten hour day you would get $4.00? Mr. Walpole: Yes, sir, and 40 cents an hour for overtime. Mr. Judson: You get paid more for this night job than you would if you were in the same service on the day job. Mr. Walpole : No, it is this way. Our engine house is quite a way from the yard, and in order to get the service out of the engine, they keep the engine up in the yard and of course it deprives us of getting our dinner, and we have to carry it. Mr. Stone : That is the reason you are paid the dinner hour ? Mr. Walpole : Yes, sir. We did not used to get it, but they found they got a good deal more work out of the engine by keeping us in the yard. Air. Stone: I think that is all I wish to ask. Mr. Eidlitz: Don't you know what your average yearly earnings are in the last two or three years! Mr. Walpole: No, I do not. Mr. Eidlitz: The average? Mr. Walpole: No, I do not. I have not got that amount of pay for that length of time. In fact, I have been on this job only about two months, but I have been in day service in the yard. Mr. Stone: What did you get when you were in day service? 412 Mr. Walpole : I got just the same, but I worked a different place, farther away from the engine house. Mr. Morrissey : Do you work every night in the year ordi- narily ? Mr. Walpole: No, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Do you lay off? Mr. Walpole : Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Why? Mr. Walpole: Well, bcause I am always satisfied with six 'days, and when I worked days, I never worked Sundays and only when it was necessary on account of scarcity of men. Mr. Morrissey: Then if you worked sis days in the week, of ten hours each for the year, what would your yearly wage, be? Mr. Walpole: It would be $24 a week, it would not be so much, ten hours a day. It would be about $104 on a month's wage, I should think, if it is on a straight day. Of course, for .these extra hours pay we get, we perform extra the service. Mr. Stone: Have you any questions, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: No. Mr. Stone : One more witness I would like to call, and that will finish our witnesses. I would like to have Mr. Thomas Hurley, of the New Haven, testify. This man has worked in both the eight and ten hour yards. The New Haven has two ^classes of yards. Thomas Hurley was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Hurley: I live at Providence, Rhode Island. Mr. Stone: How old are you? Mr. Hurley: 41 years. Mr. Stone : How long have you been with the New Haven? Mr. Hurley : I began as a fireman in September, 1895, pro- moted in 1904, January. Mr. Stone: You fired nine years almost? Mr. Hurley: Approximately that. Mr. Stone: Have you been in vard service ever since? 413 Mr. Hurley : No, sir, I worked on the spare board for nearly seven years. Mr. Stone: That is running extras on the road? Mr. Hurley: Covering all kinds of service, yard and road. Mr. Stone : You have worked in the eight-hour yards of the New Haven? Mr. Hurley : Yes, sir, I have. I had an eight hour job last winter. Mr. Stone: Now, you are working in what? Mr. Hurley: In a ten hour yard. I have been there about seven months. Mr. Stone : Did you come to the ten hour yard of your ■own choice? Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir, I bid it in. Mr. Stone: Why? Mr. Hurley: Well, there was more money in it, was the principal reason. Mr. Stone : Explain to these gentlemen how you work in the eight hour yard, and what pay you receive, and what pay you receive in the ten hour yard. Mr. Hurley: On the eight hour service it is usually relief in the yard; there are, however, some jobs in the eight hour service that get their own engines ready, but it is not the rule. Mr. Judson: That do what? Mr. Hurley : There are some that get their own engine out of the house and get it ready, but the rule is, that the engines are delivered out to you in the yard. Mr. Stone: If anything would happen to your engine in the eight hour yard, they would bring another engine to you, would they not? Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir. They don't want any delay whatso- ever. Mr. Stone: You don't stop to eat, in that eight hours? Mr. Hurley : No, and in some cases we do not stop for water. That would come under circumstances where the change was made in a manner that it would give you sufficient water for "the eight hours. We are required to make out a mechanical daily report for any failure that may occur on a switcher, the same as a road crew, and, in ten hour yards — 414 Mr. Stone : For that 8 hour yard service, what do you re- ceive for that eight hours work? Mr. Hurley: 41 cents an hour, $3.50 a day, seven days $24.50. Mr. Morrissey: How much per hour? Mr. Hurley: 41 cents. Mr. Morrissey: And what is the day! Mr. Hurley: Seven days, but as a rule — Mr. Stone: It is 43% cents per hour, is it not? Mr. Hurley : Yes, sir L the ten hours I am talking of. 43% cents per hour, on the eight hour yard. The ten hour yard is 41 cents. Mr. Stone: And the ten hour yard, what class of service are you in, just straight switching? Mr. Hurley : Well, we do very much the same kind of work ? they have got it now so they have large switchers in most of the ten hour yards, and, as a rule, they get their own engine ready. The one I am in now, I get my own engine ready. I am ordered from the engine house at 4:30 P. M. Mr. Stone: You are on a night job? Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir. I come down and I figure on being there at 3:45, and report to the engine dispatcher to get my assignment of an engine, and then I come down and look the engine over, and see what tools are on her, get an oil slip, get my oil, fill my own grease cups, or screw them down, as the case may be, fill my own oiler, look at my own headlight ; I am not supposed to fill them, but I am held responsible to know they are in burning order, and read my bulletin, and figure on leav- ing the house at 4 :30, or explain why. Mr. Stone : 4 :30 in the afternoon ? Mr. Hurley: Yes. Mr. Stone: Your time commences then at 4:30? Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir, 4:30 my time begins, and ends when I arrive at the pit and when the engine stops working and I am allowed an hour for supper between the fifth and seventh hour. Mr. Stone : Then you eat supper around ten o'clock at night? 1 Mr. Hurley : Yes, sir, about 10 :10. Mr. Stone: You quit work at what time? 415. Mr. Hurley: 4 o'clock. I leave the yard to come to the engine house, and it is about three or four miles away, and I get to the engine house probably anywhere from 4:10 to 4:25, sometimes a little later. The Chairman: What time do you get home? Mr. Hurley: I usually get home after doing all my work around the engine house, and I am ready to leave there in 35 minutes, and I get home in around 20 minutes from the en- gine house. I am home usually around 20 minutes of six in the morning. Mr. Stone: Then you must leave home again at 3:30|! Mr. Hurley : Yes, I generally leave there about 3 :25 or 3 -.30, Mr. Stone : You must be in the round house ready to move at 4:30! Mr. Hurley : Yes. Mr. Stone: Or tell why! Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir, or explain why. Mr. Stone: What do you get for that! Mr. Hurley : I get an hour 's overtime on that, which brings it to $4.51. I do not work Sundays or holidays. Mr. Stone: Six days a week? Mr. Hurley: Six days a week, except the week there is a holiday in. Mr. Stone : That is about $27.06, if there are no legal holi- days in the week. I think that is all I care to ask, Mr. Chair- man. Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Eidlitz: Why do you get the one hour overtime? Mr. Hurley : Because I work the extra thirty minutes, thirty minutes gave me an hour. Mr. Eidlitz: You take 30 minutes for lunch? Mr. Hurley: No, I do not get it. It is very seldom I get time on the supper hour. It was on account of over the ten hours. My ten hours you see would be up, my ten hours and thirty minutes comes in at four o'clock, and I get the short hour. Mr. Eidlitz : You work ten hours and thirty minutes actual work? Mr. Hurley: I usually do more than that. I do about ten 416 hours and forty-five minutes. That would be the fair esti- mate. Mr. Stone: Suppose from any cause, you only worked teii hours and twenty- nine minutes, what would happen then? Mr. Hurley : I would lose the hour. Mr. Stone : You would get ten hours' pay then? Mr. Hurley : Yes. Mr. Judson : Have you ever done road service ? Mr. Hurley: Yes, sir. I put in pretty nearly seven years on the spare board, and that gave me all kinds of service. Mr. Judson : Do you prefer this service you are in now to road service? Mr. Hurley : Well, for what my seniority, would bring me, I would rather have this. I could do spare service on the road at the present time, but I would not like it. It is hard work and I would probably make as much money, but it is harder work. Mr. Stone : It is away from home and over all divisions. Mr. Hurley: I objected to being always on call, more than any other thing. Mr. Judson: Do you object to night service? Is it more wearing than day service?. Mr. Hurley : Oh, yes. I would like a day job very much, but I cannot get it. Mr. Judson : You get the same pay for the night job as for the day job? Mr. Hurley : Yes, sir, no difference. Mr. Judson: That comes by seniority too does it not? Mr. Hurley : Yes, sir, seniority applies to that. Mr. Stone : I might explain, Mr. Chairman, with your per- mission, that nearly all of the crews the switching crews that is, — the yardmen or freight men, — with those there is a differential between day and night service ; but there is no differential in our different rates between day and night service, so far as engi- neers are concerned ; it is the same rate. I would also like to ex- plain that this closes the witnesses that we desire to put on, to support our figures and statements, but I should like to have the privilege, in case something different is brought out from the other side, to submit further testimony in rebuttal. That is all. That will conclude our side of the case, any further than 417 I desire to file a brief, at the close of the argument on the other side, — a summing up. The Chairman : I wish to say, Mr. Stone, you will get full leeway to put in your case as you wish. Mr. Van Hise: There is one question I would like to ask Mr. Stone, for information, not expecting it to be furnished now, but rather expecting it to be covered later, if it has not been cov- ered. The point has been dwelt upon in regard to the expenses of the men being allowed after having accidents, and one case has been mentioned in which a man was laid off for four weeks. I should like information, from your point of view, regarding the compensation, if any that the roads give to the men when they are laid off in that way. Is all of the industrial insurance in those cases from the engineers or is it partly from the rail- roads, and what method has been provided for caring for men who are laid off in consequence of accidents? Mr. Stone : Might I ask for information, what do you mean by men who are laid off for a discipline or from injury? Mr. Van Hise: From accident; say, he is disabled tempor- arily and cannot serve. One case has been mentioned in which the man was disabled for four weeks. Does he receive com- pensation from the road durng that time, in part or in whole, and what is the practice of the different roads in that respect, or, does his disability allowance come from the funds of the engineers, exclusively, and, in either case, what part is contri- buted by the engineers and what part is contributed by the railroads ? Mr. Stone: I don't know whether it will be possible to give you all that information or not, but I will try. Mr. Van Hise : As far as you can. I do not say all, but in substance, as full information as can be furnished. Mr. Stone: Many of our roads, I know, pay their men full time when they are injured, and others leave it to the claim department. No matter how well the engineer might be taken care of, before you return to service you have to sign a waiver and, in order to make that legal, you have to receive a dollar. Mr. Judson: How general is the maintenance of hospitals by the railroads? Quite general, isn't it? Mr. Stone: No, I don't think so. It is in the west. We have it in the West, where they take so much from the em- 418 ployees for hospital funds, and a few of the roads have it in the East and others just send their men to the hospitals lo- cated in the different cities, and pay their expenses, and some . four or five of the roads in the Bast have a relief association, where the men are paid so much. Mr. Judson : Did you file, with your exhibits, a statement of your system of insurance? Mr. Stone : No, sir, but I should be very glad to do so. Mr. Judson: You insure life and against accident! Mr. Stone : Yes, sir. We write two kinds of insurance ; we have life, what is called old line insurance, and then we write an accident policy, pure and simple. Mr. Judson: Do you have old age insurance? Mr. Stone : No, sir. Mr. Judson : Any form of pensioning ? Mr. Stone : Yes, or practically the same thing. We do not pension a man, if he is able to live, but we do take care of Mm, so that he does not become a public charge. We have no mem- bers of the organization who are public charges. Mr. Worthington : Would it not be fair, Mr. Stone, to state that the roads which do not have hospitals, in most instances, pay their men full time and also the hospital bills? Mr. Stone : I do not think it is general. Mr. Worthington : It is on all the roads I have been on, and I was wondering whether it was not a general practice. Mr. Stone: I do not think so. I wish it was. I do not think it is a genera] practice, however. The Chairman .- I was speaking to Mr. Stone on the subject and I think, as to this human side of the question, it would be a good thing if we could get light on that from both the engineers and the railroads' side. Referring to these cases of accidents, some of the roads, I believe, give that attention, and also the en- ;gineers have certain provisions. Mr. Store: I did not bring that feature out, because I rea- lized it was getting on thin ice and, if we ever started that. There were some features about the pension that rankle in us about as deep as anything in the whole system of railroads. It is a live wire and it is dangerous. Mr. Van Hise: I did not ask in regard to the pension, be- 419 cause that has not heen brought up, but simply in regard to the accidents. Mr. Stone: I have tried all the way through, and I wanted in all these entire proceedings — I wanted to keep from injecting any personal feeling into it at all, if it were possible, and I knew, once we started on the pension plan, somebody would be apt to wave a red flag before we stopped. The pension plan is what brings the physical examination about and is one of the last things we want done. It is what prevents a man of my age, 52, from being able to get a job as an engineer on a rail- road, so we just keep away from that part of it. T shall try to give you the information as fully as. possible. I should like to ask Mr. Worthington: Have you any data along that line, as to what the different railroads do in that compilation of yours ; do you show the condition? Mr. Worthington : I have shown nothing except the exhib- its which show the roads that were paying pensions and the pension systems and some little differences. 1 want to say this, that whenever you get ready to take a job, T believe that you are a pretty good engineer and, if you will come around to the Alton, we will hire you. Mr. Stone : It is very kind of Kim to say that, because he knows that I would not want the job, and I had rather go out on a farm than run on the Alton Road. What I wanted to say, Mr. Chairman, is that a man of my age could not get a job a$ an engineer. Mr. Morrissey : I want to resent the imputation with regard to the Alton Road, because I spent all my railroad life there. Mr. Stone : That is the reason why he is so well preserved at his age, Mr. Chairman — he left th,e Alton years ago. Mr. Worthington : Mr. Chairman, he can cast aspersions on the Alton now, but about five years from now he will want to work on the Alton. Mr. Stone : I hope you are a good prophet. The Chairman: Gentlemen, I just want to say a word: 1 want to thank Mr. Stone and, through Mr. Stone, these gentle- men, for having given us so much enlightenment and education upon a subject upon wbich, speaking for myself, I knew very little or nothing. Now, I feel I know almost enough about it to 420 run an engine. I have always had great respect for the en- gineer, not only since I have known them, but since I have known such men as my colleagues here, Mr. Willard, and others whom I have met. I think I am speaking in behalf of all my colleagues, when I say we have received a very clear statement from the wit- nesses who have been brought forward and, we will now ad- journ, to meet again Monday morning at 10 :30. (Whereupon, the arbitration was adjourned to Monday, July 22, 1912, at 10:30 A. M.) 421 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 22nd, 1912, 10 :30 A. M. The Chairman: Will you kindly come to order, gentlemen. 1 believe the railroads take the floor today, unless Mr. Stone has something else. Mr. Stone: I have not anything, only I would like to ask a question of Mr. Worthington. In these stenographic notes of the first day, I don't know where Hulse & Allen got these records,, but in a list of roads that is printed, there are three roads left out. The names of the three roads are not included. Mr. Duncan: What are the roads? Mr. Stone : The New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk, and the New York, Susquehanna & Western and the Zanesville & West- ern. Mr. Duncan : We will find out for you. I do not know why they were omitted, if they signed the original agreement. Mr. Stone : Also, if you will remember, and Mr. Stuart wilt verify this, at the close of our conferences, they had corre- sponded with the Cumberland Valley, looking towards having it represented and had not received any reply yet, and I have writ- ten twice to the Secretary of the Commission, Mr. Sullivan, and I have not received any reply. Did you ever get any definite in- formation in regard to the Cumberland Valley? The question was in abeyance at the lime that we adjourned. Mr. Duncan : We have not the authority to represent them. Mr. Stone : You have the authority I Mr. Duncan: We have not the authority to represent the Cumberland Valley. We do have the authority, however, to represent the New York, Susquehanna & Western and the New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk and the Toledo & Ohio Central in- cludes the Zanesville & Western. Mr. Stone: Does the Toledo & Ohio Central include the Zanesville & Western? Mr. Quick: Yes. Mr. Stone : That is the reason it is not represented separ- ately? Mr. Quick? Yes. Mr. Judson: In some cases I see your exhibits include sta- 422 tistics from railroads in this eastern group that are not repre- sented. Is there any definite rule about that? Mr. Duncan : What table, for instance ? Mr. Judson : I do not recall what particular table, but I no- tice in one or two cases — Mr. Duncan: You are referring to the Pere Marquette? Mr. Judson : Yes, and the Central Railroad of New Jersey. Mr. Duncan : The Pere Marquette went into the hands of a receiver after this agreement was signed, and we have been un- able to get the information from them, or they have taken a stand which is probably contrary to the position of the other railroads. We are ready to go forward whenever the Board is ready. The Chairman: One monent, Mr. Duncan. President Van Hise has some requests or suggestions to make. Mr. Van Hise : Mr. Chairman, On Saturday, I had an oppor- tunity for the first time to go over, somewhat closely, the exhi- bits which have been submitted by the representatives of the railroads, and it seemed to us that supplementary information was advisable, if it could be furnished, with regard to two or three tables which are important. In the first place, Table 8. Table 8 gives the last annual in- crease which was given, with the percentages. We should like in regard to that the original sources. That table is so very im- portant, the table which makes estimates of the last annual in- crease received by the engineers, and the information which is furnished regarding the increase of engineers which will result, if these requests are complied with, are so important, that it seemed to us that we should have the original data upon which those estimates are made. Mr. Duncan: We have that data and will be glad to turn it over to you. It consists of letters and reports from each rail- road, signed by the proper officer. Mr. Van Hise : Then, the next is in Table 12. Mr. Duncan: Do I understand you want that information not only for the table that shows the last increase, but also for the table that shows the estimated increase under the proposed schedule. Mr. Van Hise : Yes, both of those classes of information, and in full. Table 12 does not indicate payments for mine runs, 423 work trains, pusher and helper service — the tables have been re- numbered. Mr. Duncan : It is No. 12, and there are three sheets to it. Mr. Van Hise : Well, it has been given a. different number. It is Table No. 13. I had an old and imperfect copy. Table No. 13 I wish to refer to, and Table No. 13 gives the amount of wages paid under passenger service, freight service and switching ser- vice, and we assume that that information also includes compen- sation for mine runs, work trains, helper and pusher service. Mr. Quick: Yes. Mr. Van Hise : We wished to know whether that was a fact. Mr. Quick : Yes. That is under the caption freight service. Mr. Van Hise: The next important matter is the table 67. On table 67 there are estimated collateral increases, in the last column, amounting to $62,172,958. We should like the detailed information upon which those estimates are based. Mr. Duncan : We have that and I might say in that connec- tion, Mr. Van Hise, the estimated collateral increases have been made upon a similar increase for the other classes of employees as that asked for by the engineers. Mr. Eidlitz : The same percentage. Mr. Duncan: Same percentage. Mr. Van Hise : I should like to know the amount charged to each class of service and the facts upon which those charges are estimated. Mr. Duncan : We have that and it will be furnished. Mr. Van Hise: Mr. Veditz calls my attention to the fact that there is a discrepancy between one of the exhibits of the engineers and of the railroads. Exhibit No. 2 of the engineers gives a list of the engines on lines east of Chicago, but does not give its source. That list of the engineers does not correspond, precisely, to the list of the railroads. We request, therefore, that the engineers compare the two exhibits and if exception is filed to the statement in that regard by the railroads that we be informed of the fact. Mr. Stone: I will be very glad to do that, and I will say, Mr. Chairman, with your permission, that that information in Exhibit 2 he speaks of was brought out by a circular letter ad- dressed to the Chairman on the roads represented. Some of them didn't have the data. We realize that the list is not quite 424 complete. In another list you will find in detail, the size, cyl- inder, weight on driver, and tractive power of every engine in service east of Chicago, made np from the blue prints of the different roads. There was a list showing the classification of engines. The other list is not printed, but you have a carbon copy of it. It shows the tractive power of every engine, which, by the way, the railroads do not give; they simply give the weight on drivers which means almost anything. Mr. Morrissey : We should like to ask a question of the rep- resentatives of the roads in regard to these exhibits. In esti- mating the effect of the engineers' increase, have the computa- tions been made under any uniform understanding of the rules by the different roads, or did each road place its own construc- tion upon the value of each rule? Mr. Worthington : They were furnished with a copy of these demands or requests of the engineers, and they were requested to apply the new rules to the operations of the period taken, and, in that way ascertain, just what the wages would be under the proposed rates and working rules. Mr. Morrissey : To illustrate : the figures shown by the Bal- timore & Ohio and Pennsylvania lines east, the Pennsylvania has 889 more miles than the Baltimore & Ohio. It has 2,300 more engineers. The Pennsylvania freight and passenger mile- age is very much greater. The rules under which overtime is paid are substantially the same on both roads, still in applying the engineers' proposed rules to the situation, the Baltimore & Ohio gets a result of $329,449.76, as compared with $187,407 by the Pennsylvania, — a difference of $141,745.56. Mr. Worthington : It is a matter of computation, gentlemen. These computations were made by the experts on these roads and they applied the rules that were proposed, to their opera- tions of last year. Now, if it is desired to check the figures on these roads, that can be done, with their experts to see just what they have done. Mr. Duncan : That is being furnished the Commission at the request of Mr. Van Hise, who has requested the supporting data showing the increases. Mr. Morrissey: The point which I desired to bring out was this, that given a certain proposition as one of these contained in the engineers ' request, 50 different managers or their statisti- 425 cians might interpret it in different ways, as applied to their operations. Mr. Worthington : Well, that is quite possible. I think, if you will read over the proposed rules of the engineers they are quite clear as to their meaning and almost any intelligent man would have about the same understanding. Mr. Morrissey: You and I might agree as to that, Mr. Worthington, but in my experience in dealing with these matters,. I have found out that often times the railway gentlemen put a different construction on the rule after it is in operation than- they had estimated before it was adopted. Mr. Worthington : I have known of cases of that kind myself. . I think, if it is desired to have those gone into, there will be no • trouble about having your statistician check up each of these roads about which there is any doubt, from the data which was originally used. We would be very glad to have it done. The Chairman : Would that do, Mr. Morrissey ? Mr. Willard : The Baltimore & Ohio will submit its data, . if there is any question about it. It will all be submitted; we will arrange to have it all put in before the Board. Mr. Morrissey : I did not use the Baltimore & Ohio with any intimation of suspicion. I simply used it with the Pennsylvania Eailroad to emphasize the great difference as between the two properties, now, substantially working under similar rules. Mr. Worthington : It would be a very simple matter to have the experts who made the computations on the road about which there is any question, confer with the statistician of the Board and show just how they reached the results and we would be very glad to have that done. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to have the figures. Mr. Duncan: Those are being prepared. Mr. Judson: Mr. McPherson will be here throughout the hearings, will he not? Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: So, if any explanation is desired about how the figures were prepared, he can explain them. Mr. Duncan: Yes, sir. These figures, Mr. Judson, were prepared by Mr. Quick. 426 Mr. Judson: And he is here also? Mr. Duncan: He is here also and has the supporting data, so it will be available at any time the Commission desires it. The Chairman: Is that satisfactory, Mr. Morrissey? Mr. Morrissey: Yes, sir. The Chairman : Very well. Now, are there any other ques- tions or suggestions from any of the Board? (No response.) The Chairman : Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan : We are ready to proceed and wish to call Mr. Worthington as a witness. B. A. Worthington was recalled as a witness,and testified as follows : .Dieect Examination. Mr. Duncan: What is your name? Mr. Worthington: B. A. Worthington. Mr. Duncan : And your occupation'? Mr. Worthington: At the present time President of the "Chicago & Alton Railroad Company. Mr. Duncan: And what, if any, connection have you had with the Conference Committee that represents the railroads in this controversy? Mr. Worthington: As the representative of the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad, acting as Receiver, up to June 20th, I was a member of the Conference Committee of Managers that had the handling of this question with the Brotherhood of Lo- comotive Engineers. Mr. Duncan: And under your supervision and direction, I believe, there were prepared the various exhibits that have been handed to the Commission, numbered from 2 to 115? Mr. Worthington: Most of them, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Part of those exhibits were prepared by the Conference Committee itself and part by the Bureau of Rail- way Economics? Mr. Worthington: Yes. 427 Mr. Duncan: But all of them were prepared under your supervision and direction ? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Duncan: You are familiar with the contents of them! Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Will you now turn to those exhibits, Mr. Worthington, in order that the Board may know the specific pur- pose for which each one is offered; take them up in the order and very briefly tell the Commission the purpose of offering- each exhibit. Mr. Worthington: I would like to state for the informa- tion of the Board, that the Bureau of Bailway Economics is an entirely new organization, having been established less than two years ago, and it might not be out of place to say a word in regard to its plan and purposes. Bailway officers, as can well be imagined, are so absorbed in the problems of immediate operations and administration, that they have not got the necessary time and opportunity to study the broader questions which are many times more im- portant than either the operation or administration of railroad properties, and for this reason it has happened that different analysis of serious matters have been based upon varying data, and sometimes left to inharmonious conclusions. Furthermore, the railways have not always been possession of complete in- formation necessary to enable them to arrive at accurate con- clusions. In the spring of 1910 there was held a meeting of railroad presidents to discuss the methods for bringing fulness of knowl- edge into the discussions of the broad questions of general con- cern, with the idea of bringing about a great degree of accu- racy in their conclusions, and to give force and confidence to their presentations, which accuracy alone can give. It was recognized that to bring this about there must be a competent agency, whose time and attention should be given entirely to the study of the more intricate subjects of general interest. It was also recognized that the ultimate solution of the problems affecting the railways must be upon the basis of exact fact. Therefore, that the exact facts underlying every question must be carefully ascertained and logically presented. 428 At that meeting, there was appinted a general executive -committee of six railroad presidents, to establish the Bureau of Railway Economies, and in pursuance of this plan this bureau is neither partisan nor polemic, and it does not take sides. It uses its best efforts to ascertain facts, and to give those facts expres- sion without bias. In the preparation of its statistical compila- tions, every precaution is taken to insure soundness in method and accuracy in detail. In the expression of the results of its researches it is careful to keep within the truth, and to avoid even the semblance of over-statements. It was for this reason that we selected the Bureau of Bailway Economics to make the major portion of the tables that are being presented for the in- formation of your Board. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Worthington, the tables which were prepared by the Bureau of Bailway Economics have a notation ■ on them that will show by whom they were prepared? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, these other exhibits will show that they were prepared directly by the Conference Committee? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Now, in the preparation of the exhibits by the Conference Committee, what was the source of its information! Mr. Worthington: We obtained the information in every instance directly from each road, separately, and our work was simply a matter of compilation of this data as it came in from the various roads. Mr. Duncan : Have you the supporting data available for the use of the Board, in so far as the Board cares to examine it, in connection with any exhibit? Mr. Worthington: We have the supporting data for every exhibit, and will be glad to submit it to the Board if it is desired. Mr. Judson : Through whom did the Conference Committee do that work of compilation? I am referring to the exhibits other than those prepared by the Bureau of Railway Economics. Mr. Worthington : We established an office force in our tenir porary New York office. Mr. Quick, the secretary of the Con- ference Committee, has had charge of the compilation, with a corps of clerks which he used at that time. And, Iwish to say that we aimed to follow the same principle as the Bureau of Railway Economics, in the compilation of these figures. 429 Exhibit No. 1, -which I have not here, and I do not think you have there — The Chairman : No. Mr. Worthington: Is the same as that map which is on the wall there. The only point in submitting that exhibit was to show that, very early in the history of the Interstate Commerce Com- mission, it was found necessary, because of the difference in local conditions, to group the various portions of the United States, showing that they recognized the difference in local conditions. Mr. Duncan : The eastern territory, however, as embraced in this dispute, includes all three groups ? Mr. Worthington : Includes 1, 2 and 3. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 2 shows the estimated an- nual increase of pay requested by the locomotive engineers, based on the service of the calendar year 1911, the average in- crease amounting to 17.71 per cent. The point of this exhibit was not only to show what this proposed increase would amount to in the different classes of service, but to call particular at- tention to the last column, from which it will be noted that the minimum increase on any road, I think, is on the Bessemer & Lake Erie, 10.4 per cent., and the maximum increase, on the Coal & Coke Eailroad, is 56.35 per cent. It will be noted, how- ever, that a very large number of these roads are over 25 per cent. This is, of course, the effect of standardization. Mr. Morrissey: Is the Central Railroad of New Jersey a party to these proceedings ? Mr. Duncan: They are not. Mr. Worthington : It is probably fair to state, however, that whatever is done with reference to these other roads would unquestionably have to be followed by the Central Railroad of New Jersey, would it not? Mr. Morrissey: I think so. Mr. Judson: The fact is, isn't it, that the Central Railroad of New Jersey was not a party because it had outstanding con- tracts? Mr. Worthington: That is the reason, exactly. Mr. Duncan: It is interested in this matter, however? Mr. Worthington: Surely. Mr. Duncan: Before you pass to Exhibit 3, will you please 430 explain to the Commission the manner in which you have ap- plied — Mr. Shaw: May I ask one question on Exhibit 2, as to the final average, which is 17.70. That, I take it, is simply an aver- age based upon adding up the column and dividing by the num- ber of lines in the column, or is it based upon — Mr. Duncan: The total payments. Mr. Shaw : That is based upon the total payments and not at all based upon the percentages in the column above? Mr. Duncan : That is right. Mr. Shaw: That is not a carrying out of the total alone. You can see that some people might read that as an average of the percentages above. Mr. Duncan : It is not an average of the percentages. Mr. Shaw: That is all. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Worthington, will you please ex- plain to the Commission the method used by the railroads when estimating the amount of increase in wages due to changes in working condition under the proposed rules, as applied to the calendar year 19li, referring to Exhibit 3? Mr. Worthington: The proposed working rules submitted in the request of the engineers were applied to the operations of each road separately, and these amounts were computed by each road separately, showing just what the effect would be under the proposed working rules. Mr. Duncan: For instance, under the heading "For all time over fifteen hours away from home terminals" — do you catch the column, Mr. Worthington? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : The Baltimore & Ohio has $117,862 as the in- creased amount that it would have been compelled to pay, if the proposed rates were applied against 1911. Is that applied against the actual time, held away from home terminals over fifteen hours, on the Baltimore & Ohio? Mr. Worthington: I so understand it. Mr. Duncan: And that is the case with all of the other cal- culations ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Duncan: They have used the actual conditions in 1911? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. 431 Mr. Duncan: And applied against them the proposed rate? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. The Chairman : May I ask you, Mr. Duncan, why those fig- ures are not given, but there is a dotted line, what does that mean? Mr. Duncan: That would mean that the railroad — the Bes- semer & Lake Erie, for instance — under that column, for all time over fifteen hours held away from home terminals — if would mean that it had no trains, probably, during the calendar year 1911, that had been held away from home terminals over fifteen hours, and therefore no figures are given for that road in that column. Mr. Worthington: The reason for that might not be ap- parent to you, but the Bessemer & Lake Lrie is a road running from Pittsburgh, to the Lakes and handles a very heavy coal and ore traffic. They can figure very closely as to the number of crews that are required and keep them moving pretty uni- formly, whereas, on a railroad like the Baltimore & Ohio, where the traffic is variable, and they handle all kinds of commodities and they are susceptible to fluctuations in the volume of traffic during different periods of the year, they cannot always deter- mine the number of crews and you will notice that by one of the rules affecting the running of crews, they use a certain num- ber of crews, and only reduce the number after a conference with the men. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Worthington, that same thing — Mr. Morrissey: I should like to ask a question in that can- nection. Mr. Duncan : Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: In compiling the figures under this division, would you say that under this heading the Baltimore & Ohio fig- ured, — as in the case of the gentleman who testified here tlie other day, where his run was from Lorain to Holloway, thence making one or two trips from Holloway to Chicago Junction and return, and finally, after four or five days arriving back at Lor- ain, — that they computed all the time that he was away from Lorain in compiling their figures? Mr. Worthington: Of course, as you know, I did not make the compilation so, whether that would be included or not I could not answer, but we can — 432 Mr. Willard : Mr. Chairman, let me suggest that the man who made the figures for the Baltimore & Ohio is here and he might be interrogated. Mr. Worthington : Yes, we might ask him, or put him on as a witness later on. Mr. Morrissey : I do not want to go into any general cross- examination, but I wanted to understand how far this was ap- plied. Mr. Worthington : The only way that can be answered is by producing the man who made the figures. Our instructions, of course, were for the roads to take the proposed working rules and apply them to their operations of last year and give us the result. Now just how each individual calculation has been made, of course, I cannot personally answer. The Chairman : Mr. "Worthington, do you not think it would be well to have that question answered now I Mr. Duncan: I think, Mr. Morrissey, Mr. Walber of the Baltimore & Ohio, could answer that question for you. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt — The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: When it comes down to the Baltimore & Ohio figures, if they are going to put the man on who made them,, there are several questions I would like to ask him myself on general cross examination. Mr. Duncan : We might do it now, or wait and do it later. Mr. Morrissey : Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to confuse this matter, and I suggest in order to keep the record straight, that Mr. Worthington continue, without the introduction of other wit- nesses, and afterwards Mr. Walbers, or any of the other gentle- men they may wish to call upon, can go upon the stand. Mr. Duncan : If the Commission, from, time to time, would indicate — Mr. Shaw: May I ask one question at this point? Mr. Duncan : Pardon me. Mr. Shaw: Since we are taking these statements seriatim, in order that we may understand them, might it not be well that whenever any question comes up which affects any particular table, to have that question answered as we go along? It is not as if Mr. Worthington was here to make, as he made the other day, a consecutive presentation; he is here to explain these 433 tables to us, and if someone else can 'belter answer a particular question tbat arises, as regards one table, do we not save time by having that question answered briefly, but as best it may be answered, as we go along. How does that seem to you ? Mr. Van Hise: I think that is very wise, as long as it is con- fined to that table. Mr. Shaw: Yes; [ meant just a brief answer covering the question as to that table. Mr. Judson? I think that is all right, if it means just clear- ing up a particular point or so, but I think if it is going to lead to a longer cross examination, as Mr. Stone suggests, that that might cause confusion. The Chairman: I thought there was only a single question, which could quickly be answered. Mr. Shaw : I thought a question had been asked of Mr. Wor- thington, and Mr. Worthington said a gentleman was here who- could quickly answer it in a few words for Mr. Worthington, just that question, and then we would pass to the next table. Mr. Duncan : May I make this suggestion, in that connection : When a question of that kind is asked, we will produce the wit- ness who could answer it, and then if Mr. Stone would like to cross-examine him at any later time in the hearing, we could have him here at that time. Mr. Judson : That is all right. Mr. Shaw: My suggestion was for the rapid elucidation of the table. Mr. Judson: Mr. Stone, would that be satisfactory to you? Mr. Stone: Anything would be satisfactory to me that got the information, but is not this the fact, that perhaps his answer- to that one question would lead to many other questions on the same subject? Mr. Judson : That would be without prejudice to your rights. Mr. Duncan: Then, shall Mr. Walber make the statement? The Chairman : Yes, just as to that one question. Dr. Shaw suggests that is on the principle of yielding the floor, for a moment, so if the main witness yields the floor for a moment, then we will put the question. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Will you read the question. (The question was read by the reporter, as follows : In com- 434 piling the figures under this division, would you say that under this heading the Baltimore & Ohio figured, as in the case of the gentleman who testified here the other day, where his run was from Lorain to Holloway, thence making one or two trips from Holloway to Chicago Junction and return, and finally, after four or five days arriving back at Lorain, — that they computed all the time that he was away from Lorain in compiling their figures? Mr. Walber : In answer as to the method pursued in arriving at these figures, I need only say that the time slips for each trip were checked; the time of arrival of an engineer at a terminal was ascertained; the next time slip covering his trip out from that terminal was ascertained; the hours elapsing between the two times were then arrived at, and wherever they were detained beyond 15 hours between trips the overtime was computed at the rate per hour applying to the class of service ; in through freight, if he had a Mikado engine, the Mikado rate was applied ; if he had a different type of engine the rate according to the size of cylinders was applied. But, as to Mr. Morrissey's point, we did not include the total time elapsing until he got back to Lorain, because each trip was treated separately. The Chairman : That will do. Mr. Duncan : Now, turn to Exhibit No. 4. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 4 simply shows the number of locomotive engineers in service in each class of the service, the total for the 52 railroads aggregating 31,840. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Worthington, does that list include the multiple unit men on the Long Island Boad. Mr. Worthington: I am not sure. It says 44 electric; that might be electric locomotives Mr. Duncan: Mr. Quick advises me that they are not in- cluded in that list. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: So that the list of locomotive engineers given here would not check with the list which you find in some other statements, which includes the multiple unit men on the Long Island. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 5 shows the proportion of total railway revenues and expenses, the total railway traffic and the total compensation to railway employees and enginemen pertaining to the 52 railways for the fiscal years 1900 and 1910. 435 This table is, as shown by the explanatory note underneath, for the purpose of indicating the magnitude of the problem at the present time, and the figures speak for themselves. Mr. Duncan : Now referring to Exhibit No. 6. Mr. Worthington : This statement shows the dates and amounts of general increases in engineer's pay from 1900 to 1911 and, as will be noted, there are several omissions. The Wheeling 4a Lake Erie shows blank; the reason for which I cannot under- stand, because we have made several increases since 1900, and we will have the omissions filled in. They are not important;, in fact, the omission would be rather against us than in our favor, because the point of the table is to show that increases have been made from time to time in the wages of the engineers. Mr. Duncan : What, if any, explanation have you to offer for the difference in the number of increases made by different rail- roads ! I notice that some railroads have succeeded in — Mr. Worthington : Well, I don 't know unless the boys came in a little oftener on those roads; I don't know of any other ex- planation. Mr. Duncan : Apparently they came in pretty often, to most of them. Mr. Worthington: Well, this table would seem to indicate that. Table No. 7— Mr. Shaw : This table is one of so much importance, upon the whole, and one that bears so vitally upon the questions at issue. is it not true that if possible all of the roads should make a re- port upon it ? Mr. Worthington: Unqestionably, and I have already re- quested Mr. Quick, the Secretary of the Committee, to cor- respond with these roads and get the necessary information to have this table filled up. There is no sound reason why it should not he. Table No. 7. The purpose of this schedule is to show the date that the present wage schedules became effective for con- ductors and trainmen and engineers, as of the last increases. By comparing the dates it will be noted that in all instances except- ing three of four the engineers' increase was subsequent to the increase of conductors and trainmen ; the point being that, while there has been a slight narrowing of the differential between the conductors and engineers, as of the date of the last schedule, that 436 was not an issue at the time the last engineers' schedule was made. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Worthington, please pick out a couple of instances there illustrating the general statement, so far as ;the information on Exhibit No. 7 is concerned. Mr. Worthington: Well, a road? Mr. Duncan : Yes. Mr. Worthington : Take the Wheeling & Lake Erie, the con- ductors ' and trainmen's schedule was made on June 1st, 1910, and the engineers ' schedule September 1st, 1910. Mr. Duncan : So that, at the time the Wheeling & Lake Erie concluded its negotiations with the engineers, the engineers were apprised of the result of the negotiations of the conductors ? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson : In some cases, I see, they were made at the same time. Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. In fact, in three cases the engi- neers was made first. Mr. Duncan: What three cases are those? Mr. Worthington: I cannot pick them out, they can b«' as- certained by comparison. I noticed there were three or four when I went down the line. Mr. Duncan: There is the Delaware & Hudson? Mr. Worthington : That was the same day. Mr. Duncan: And, there is the Hocking Valley? Mr. Worthington : I think there are about four of them where the engineers made their schedules first. Mr. Duncan : Well, in practically all of them they were made subsequent to the time the conductors and trainmen had their wages adjusted? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Morrjissey : Why are the figures blank as to the conduc- tors and trainmen on the Coal & Coke Railway under this table? Mr. Worthington : I will ask Mr. Smith that, he is here. Mr. Smith: The changes were made with all at the same time. I do not know why it is blank on this. We gave that information. Mr. Worthington : Then I will ask Mr. Quick why it is not included. 437 Mr. Quick: Perhaps we did not receive the letter; the in- formation they have arrived at after the conference started. Mr. Worthington: i wish you would see, Mr. Quick. Mr. Duncan : That was as of what date ? Mr. Smith: The same date. Mr. Duncan: What date? Mr. Smith: April 1st, 1911. Mr. Duncan : Did that result from arbitration ? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: 1 see, on the Pennsylvania Lines, West, the conductors and trainmen were increased September 1st, and the engineers April 1st, of the same year. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson: That doesn't include the Yandalia, that is a separate statement? Mr. Peck: I think they handled theirs in the same way, at the same time, a six per cent, horizontal increase to all em- ployes and, later, a further increase to some other classes. Mr. Duncan : Turning to Exhibit 8 Mr. Worthington. : Exhibit 8 shows the date and amount per annum in the last increase in pay of locomotive engineers. It will be noted that the average increase aggregates 10.84 per cent., and by reference to the percentage of increase on the dif- ferent roads, the minimum is shown on the Toledo, St. Louis & Western, 4.15 per cent., and the maximum is shown by the Buffalo & Susquehanna, 20.3 per cent. Mr. Duncan : How does that increase compare with the pro- posed increase ? Mr. Worthington: You will notice that those same roads, the Toledo, St. Louis & Western, on Exhibit, the proposed in- crease is 27.31 and the Buffalo & Susquehanna 36.45 per cent. It is only fair to state that there was no attempt at standard- ization when the last schedule was made, and that would ac- count for quite a marked difference in these percentages of increase asked for. Mr. Duncan: The average percentage of increase granted in 1910 and 1911 was 10.84 per cent.? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: As against the 17.71 per cent, asked for at the present time? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Duncan: Now, what is meant by the words "concerted or individual action" in the last column? Mr. Worthington: There was no concerted action at that time: it was all individual with the exception of the Pennsyl- vania Lines, West, which made a voluntary increase. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by "concerted action"? Mr. Worthington: Similar to what is taking place at the present time. This is concerted, where the roads are all to- gether. Individual action is where committees of adjustment, local committees of adjustment, and sometimes aided by their grand officers Mr. Judson: (Interrupting.) Supposing all employes of the road, that is, the engineers, trainmen, firemen and con- ductors should get together, would you call that individual or concerted action? Mr. Worthington: I would call that individual, but feder- ated ; it would be individual action, if it applied only to one rail- road. Concerted action applies to a number of railroads. The Chairman: The words "concerted" and "individual" as used here, apply to the railroad side, do they not? Mr. Duncan: No, just the opposite. Mr. Worthington: No, it applies to the men,, because the railroads never start anything of this kind. Mr. Judson : You will find, in one case, they did there. Mr. Worthington : The Pennsylvania did, yes. Mr. Stone : And, there is an explanation back of that. Mr. Eidlitz : This is the first time, is it not, that the Brother- hood of Locomotive Engineers meets through the central or- ganization with all the railroads on an issue, is it not ? Mr. Worthington: No. It is, in the eastern district, but they had a similar action, you know, west of Chicago. Mr. Eidlitz: I mean in the body of railroads we are con- sidering, this is the first time where the two centrals have got- ten together? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Exactly. Mr. Morrissey: Is it intended to convey, by this exhibit,, that each engineer on the different roads named received in- creases in 1910 or 1911 equal to the percentages set opposite the road? 439 Mr. Wortkington : No, for the reason that some engineer might get as much as 25 per cent, increase while the average would be only 10, and some others would get very slight in- creases; some engineers, on certain runs, under the last adjust- ment, might not get any increase. This is the increase in the payroll of engineers. Mr. Morrissey: Those figures do not mean that, on each road, there was a horizontal increase of that amount over the then existing rates paid to each engineer? Mr. Worthington : No, not to each engineer, but to the en- gineers, as a whole, there was. Mr. Morrissey: That is, as the result of these adjustments, the roads paid an additional amount to their engineers for that year which would average the percentage set opposite eacli road? Mr. Worthington : Yes. It would be immaterial to the rail- road companies how the money was divided up. They had to pay it. Just how much each individual engineer received would be immaterial to us. Mr. Duncan: That represents the increased amount of money that the railroad companies were compelled to pay under that wage adjustment in 1910 and 1911 ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Duncan: And to the same number of engineers. The Chairman : Mr. Duncan, how was that adjustment made on each road, as to the individual, if at all? Mr. Duncan : On the Pennsylvania, as I understand it, they made a flat advance. The others have advanced rates of pay so it would affect different engineers, probably differently, but would require the railroad companies to pay, in the aggregate, $4,000,000 more, to the same number of engineers, than they paid under the old rates of pay. Mr. Worthington: I do not think that quite answers your question. Take, for example, the Wheeling & Lake Erie. The men came before me with a proposed scale and with certain working rules, which they submitted. Our local officers met ihem first. They did not agree. Then they came to me and we sat down and gave the best reasons we could why we ought not accede to the requests of the engineers. We took up each item separately, in some cases, we made concessions ; in others 440 we did not; but we finally agreed, I think it took three or four days, and we went over each detail and, while I cannot say that the engineers were wholly satisfied, as I do not believe we have reached that state yet, we did strike an agreement, and the agreement was signed up for a period of one year, and to extend, as it usually does, beyond that period, subject to thirty days' notice from either party. Mr. Judson: This means that, after you made that adjust- ment, your annual expense for the same number of engineers for that system was 17.30 per cent, greater? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Judson: But it does not mean every individual engi- neer got an increase of 17.30 per cent., am I correct! Mr. Worthington : Exactly. In some classes of service some engineer would not get anything; the Committee was un- able to make me believe that he ought to have any extra com- pensation; I thought his present rate was high enough, and we would agree — that is, they did not agree that he should not have something, but they would go back and tell him that he could not have anything. On the whole, taking the Wheeling & Lake Erie for instance, the average increase on the Wheeling & Lake Erie was 17.3 per cent. That does not mean that each engineer in the service got 17.30 per cent, increase; some of them got more than that and some of them got less. Mr. Judson: Some didn't get any? Mr. Worthington: Some didn't get any. Mr. Willard: The increases that they did get, the individ- ual, I take it, was the result of the conference you had with the men representing the men; you finally agreed, perhaps neither party being satisfied, but you did agree that it should be distrib- uted as it was, some getting more and some less? Mr. Worthington : That is exactly right. Mr. Duncan : Turn to Exhibit No. 9. Mr. Worthington : Exhibit No. 9, in the first column, shows the railroad; second, the existing rate, in different classes of service ; the third, the overtime rules, and the fourth column is "remarks," in which exceptions are noted. The object of that exhibit is not only to show the existing scale, but also for the purpose of showing that there has been an effort on the part of 441 the railroad managers to make wage scales that will fit the local, conditions under which the roads are operated. Mr. Duncan: Will you illustrate that by referring to some particular schedule! Mr. Worthington: Take the Baltimore & Ohio, noting their rates for passenger service and the overtime rates in compari- son with a poor road, such as the Coal & Coke, on the next. page- Mr. Duncan: The Coal & Coke rates were the result of arbi- tration, weren't they? Mr. Worthington: Well, then, take some other road that is situated differently. Mr. Duncan: I have no objection to your using the Coal & Coke. Mr. Worthington : Take the Wheeling & Lake Erie, for ex- ample. The Toledo & Ohio Central or the Toledo, St. Louis &. Western — the passenger traffic on the Baltimore & Ohio is very much more dense and it handles a heavy through traffic, while these weaker lines handle pretty nearly all local business. Mr. Willard: I would like to inquire, Mr. Worthington, whether the Coal & Coke rates shown here are the result of arbitration. I did not understand it before. Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : They are the result of arbitration. Mr. Worthington: They are the result of arbitration. Who arbitrated that case? Mr. Duncan : I think Mr. Morrissey was one of the arbitra- tors. Mr. Worthington : Now, Exhibit No. 10. Mr. Van Hise: Before going to Exhibit No. 10, may I ask you a question about Exhibit No. 8 again? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Van Hise: In the determining of the annual increases there given, was it taken on the basis of the same number of engineers as were previously employed, or was the increase ob- tained by subtracting the total payroll, before the raise, from the total payroll, after the raise? Mr. Worthington: I will have to get you the original data, the supporting data for that table, because I do not know. But,. tbat will be submitted, the original data. 442 Mr. Van Hise : Yes. Mr. Worthington: Mr. Quick, I would like to have you sub- mit the original data for Table No. 8 and answer the question .that Dr. Van Hise has asked. Mr. Judson: It strikes me you have already answered it, .in the answer you gave before. Mr. Worthington: That was in reference, Mr. Judson, to 'Table No. 2. Mr. Judson; No; as to Table No. 8, I understood you to say, that you were dealing simply with the financial results to . the railroad company and that was, in effect, simply subtracting .the payroll before from the payroll afterward. Mr. Worthington : Well, I so understand it. Mr. Judson: Then the same number of men? Mr. Worthington: I so understand it. Mr. Duncan : That is so, as applied to the Wheeling & Lake Erie, is it not? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir ; it is. Mr. Duncan : That is, you paid $44,000 to the same number •of men? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Willard: Doing the same work? Mr. Duncan : Doing the same work. Mr. Worthington: I would like, however, to confirm that. I want to be sure. I do not want to make any statement that cannot be shown to be exactly correct. Now, Mr. Quick, I wish you would look that up. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Chairman. Mr. Quick, who prepared state- ment No. 8, says that that shows the increased compensation to the same number of men, that is, that if there were 100 men employed before and they got $100, this shows that the next time they were paid they got on the basis of $104. Mr. Van Hise: And, for the same labor? Mr. Duncan: The same labor. Mr. Van Hise : Because, that point I also wish included. Mr. Duncan : He says it is shown by the supporting data. Mr. Eidlitz: Taking this past year 1911, really means ap- plying the increase on the work performed in 1911, under those rates? Mr. Duncan: Precisely. 443 Mr. Worthington: That was done on Exhibit No. 2, I am sure of that, but I was not sure of Exhibit No. 8, but I know that was true on Exhibit No. 2. Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Worthington : Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10. Nine is • pas- senger service, ten is through freight service. Mr. Duncan: 10-a. Mr. Worthington : 10-a is local and way freight service. Mr. Duncan: 10-b. Mr. Worthington: 10-b is switching service. Mr. Duncan: 11? Mr. Worthington: 11 is pusher and helper service. Mr. Duncan: 12. Mr. Worthington: 12 is work train service. Mr. Duncan: What is the purpose of those various ex- hibits? Mr. Worthington : To show the existing rates , and over- time rules on the various roads, at the present time. Mr. Duncan: Bringing out the various rates that are ob- tained ? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson: By work train, you mean a train engaged in construction work? Mr. Worthington: That would be a work train. You call a ballast train a work train, usually, and an engine that would be working in a yard, in connection with maintenance of way, is engaged in work train service. Mr. Judson: It means work on that railroad? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Worthington, I notice that you have under Exhibit 12, the third sheet, "mine runs." Sheet 3, Exhibit 12. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: That shows that the practice of some of the railroads is to treat the mine run as a separate run or class of runs requiring difference in pay ? Mr. Worthington ; Yes ; it is regarded as switching service and is so classified by the Interstate Commerce Commission. Mr. Duncan : Now, the proposed rule of the engineers would require vou to treat the mine run as a through freight run, would it? 444 Mr. Worthington : I think so. You have the schedule there. I believe it would. Mr. Duncan: Now, what would be your objection to classi- fying a mine run as a through freight run and giving it the same rate of pay? Mr. Worthington : Because it is purely a switching service. For example, take the No. 8 district in Ohio, served by the Wheeling & Lake Erie. We have 15 or 18 mines and we switch into a central yard, and these engines go out a few miles — go out all the way from one mile, which is the nearest mine, out as far as 21 miles, on the longest run ; and they simply take the empties out and bring the loads into these switching yards, and they per- form a switching operation just like switch engines that would be serving the switching districts in Chicago, or switching at any other centre. Mr. Duncan : Are the men home ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, the men usually live at these central points and they are at their homes practically every night. Mr. Duncan: I notice from that exhibit that some of the roads classify a mine run as a work train, taking work train rates. Mr. Worthington : Well, work trains are, as a rule, practi- cally switching service. Mr. Duncan : Turning to Exhibit 13 — Mr. Van Hise : Before turning to Exhibit 13, I should like, in reference to these tables, a sheet filed which will show what these letters mean. I suppose railroad men know them all, but we Arbitrators are unfortunate in not knowing them all. For instance, in the B. & 0., 0. R, W. Va. & P. and M. R. 0. & L. K. That is one class of statement. Then there will be, for instance, the New York Central & Hudson River, G. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, H. 3, 12, K 10, 11, and similar statements, with regard to classifications at various places ; so that I ask that a sheet be furnished us which will explain exactly the significance of each of these ab- breviations, on these tables. Mr. Duncan: You have, Mr. Worthington, a statement classifying all the engines, as part of that exhibit? Mr. Worthington : Yes, we have an exhibit here which shows the classification of these engines. , Mr. Van Hise : And, which will show what "B8" means! 445 Mr. Worthington : And, which will show what these letters mean. It is in these exhibits and we will come to it in a few min- utes. Mr. Van Hise: So, these letters are all explained some- where else! Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Eidlitz : Through the Chairman I would like to ask Mr. "Worthington, on these mine runs, as they are termed, or the work runs — do you have pool engineers ? Mr. Worthington: No. Mr. Eidlitz: Is there a pool from which these men are drawn or does that man, each day, have that specific duty to perform and collect his revenue on that basis, or is he in the variable situation that the man is who runs the pool freights? Mr. Worthington : Well, that would vary. In some mining districts they pool their mine crews. I do not know that they pool the engines in mine runs very much. They usually run as- signed engines. But, v what I mean by pooling, — they may start this engineer out with his engine up to a certain mine to-day, and to-morrow, they may run him off toward another mine, but the crews in that service are assigned. Mr. Eidlitz: That is what I want to know. They are on duty for that specific service each day or reasonably each day. Mr. Worthington : Usually so. Mr. Eidlitz: And are not subject to the fluctuations and variations that the freight crew is, that is, in what they call the freight pool arrangement with the engineers; these are steady men, in other words, or are they not? Mr. Worthington: Usually so. Of course, they are sub- ject to the fluctuations in the volume of coal tonnage turned out, the output of coal for these mines. Their wages would fluctuate according to the volume of business coming out of those mines. Mr. Morrissey: How are conductors and brakemen on this class of runs rated, as to pay? Mr. Worthington: Well, we show in the schedule — no, we do not show the conductors and brakemen. I could give you a comparative statement showing what the conductors and' brakemen get. I could not state offhand, but I think quite likely, it varies on different roads. 446 Mr. Morrissey: Don't they generally take the through freight rate? Mr. Worthington : I am not certain about that. Mr. Morrissey: Do they take it on the Wheeling & Lake Erie! Mr. "Worthington: Of course, the reason for the difference would have to be considered. While the mine run and work train service, in so far as the engineers is concerned, likens it- self to switching service, it is somewhat different for trainmen, (because the trainmen in these large yards are regular switch- men; they have regular foremen and switchmen who are in charge of those engines, who do not engage in train service; whereas, the mine run engineer does; he is subject to call for through main line service. Mr. Willard: I would like to ask another question for the sake of getting a little more light, perhaps. In that connec- tion, would it not be fair to keep in mind that conductors, as a rule, are paid a uniform rate or generally so, regardless of the size of the engine so that the fact that they might be paid through freight rates in mine service would really signify noth- ing in particular, because enginemen's wages vary now with the size of engines while conductors receive the same rate. Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: So that the comparison of conductors and en- ginemen's wages would not be truly analogous in this or any other case. Now, in respect to a question of Mr. Eidlitz, I doubt if that was made clear. Is it a fact or is it not a fact that, generally, engines working in a mine run district, if not as- signed to regular runs, would probably be in a mine run pool working within a region so that while they might go to this mine today and that mine tomorrow, they would radiate all the time from the same terminal and be back usually at the home terminal at night. Is not that the customary practice? Mr. Worthington : Yes. I may not have made myself clear, but that is what I was trying to say. I am glad you have made it clearer. Mr. Willard: Yes, it did not seem to me it was quite clear. And, the fluctuations they are subject to would be no greater or less than any man must be subject to in the transportation 447 business, which of course is dependent upon the business con- ditions of the country generally. It would be no greater or less. Mr. Worthington : No, because the fluctuations of the wages of that man in mine run engine service would be reflected in the earnings of the whole crew who haul it out of there. Mr. Judson: Are engineers any more affected by fluctua- tions in business than any other class of service? Mr. Worthington: Not that I could see. Mr. Judson: Engineers, trainmen and conductors. Mr. Worthington: No, I cannot see that they would be, ex- cepting to the extent there might be a few more engineers en- gaged in helper service. They might, to that extent, show slightly in excess in the reduction in the amount of money that would be distributed, incident to a reduction in earnings, com- pared with conductors and trainmen. Mr. Judson: But, if there should be a falling off of busi- ness, take say a cessation of production in the coal mines on a road that did a large coal business and had a large amount of coal traffic, would that loss fall equally upon all classes of em- ployees ? Mr. Worthington : No, it would fall in greater ratio upon em- ployes engaged in train service, because there would be a less number of trains run, and they are paid according to their mile- age ; whereas, in station agents and telegraph operators and dis- patchers and so forth, who were working on a monthly wage, they would not be so affected. Mr. Judson: Unless the conditions were so prolonged as to involve a reduction in force? Mr. Worthington : Yes, and then it would not be in the same ratio as men engaged in train service, but we would of course make as heavy a reduction as we could. Mr. Judson: But, as between the different classes engaged in the same service, the burden would fall upon all alike sub- stantially? Mr. Worthington : Pretty nearly equal, that is, in about the same ratio. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Worthington, would that apply with equal force to all of these mine runs ? Is it not a fact you have to keep 448 the mine runs going even when the mines are not working to full capacity; that is, you cannot reduce the force, in proportion as your tonnage is reduced? Mr. Worthington : I do not know that I understand your question unless — Mr. Duncan : For instance, you have six or seven mines, working out from a central point or that are worked from a cen- tral point. You probably would require the same number of en- gines and engineers to haul the production from those mines today as you would tomorrow, even if the mines did vary a little in volume in their production. Mr. Worthington: If the reduction was sufficient we might drop off some of the crews and those remaining in service would get about the same compensation, because they are paid by the day. But — Mr. Duncan: But, these engineers that are in this service, they have to go to every mine that is working, whether that mine produces two carloads or ten carloads for that day. Mr. Worthington: Surely. The point I suppose you make is that the reduction in compensation would not be in the same ratio as the reduction in business. Mr. Duncan ; That is what I mean. Mr. Worthington: That is true. Mr. Duncan : Well, it would not be in the same ratio as you could reduce your through freight service, would it? Mr. Worthington: No. Mr. Duncan: In other words your through freight service would be — Mr. Worthington: No, it would not, because your through freight service would be controlled by your train tonnage and yon would aim to keep up your train tonnage . and you would handle the business with a less number of trains The reduction would be heavier in the through freight service than in the mine run service. Mr. Duncan : Now, turn to Exhibit No. 13. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 13 shows the total amount of wages paid locomotive engineers for the year ending Decem- ber 31st. 19] 1, for the different classes of service, anJ is pre- sented as a matter of information to the Board. There is no special point, except to show its magnitude. 449 Mr. Duncan: Exhibit 14. Mr. Wortlrington : Exhibit 14 is a statement showing the, normal monthly earnings, accruing on runs of regularly as- signed locomotive engineers, under the present rates of pay and working conditions. The first column shows the minimum, the second the maximum, and the third the average, and the fourth the per cent, which the assigned service bears to the total ser- vice of each class. It will be noted that it is made up by divi- sions for each railroad. Mr. Duncan: What do you mean by "assigned runs"? Mr. Worthington: The assigned crews on the runs. Mr. Duncan: Take, for instance, the fourth column . under^ the heading "Passenger" and the column "Per cent.," the B. & 0., on the Philadelphia Division, does that mean that 100 per cent.— that all of the runs on that division are regularly as- signed runs? Mr. Worthington : That is the way I understand it. Is that fight, Mr. Quick! Mr. Quick: Yes, that means that all of those runs are cov- ered by regular engineers. Mr. Duncan : Take, for instance, the Bessemer & Lake Erie, further down, that shows 94.5 per cent.; that would mean that 94.5 per cent, of its runs are operated by regularly assigned locomotive engineers? Mr. Worthington : That is correct. Mr. Judson: This statement is prepared by Mr. Quick? Mr. Worthington : Yes. It is signed on the third page. Mr. Eidlitz: Could I ask a question there — take the freight column, the through freight under the Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis, I find percentages there of 15, 29, 27 and '.'&. Does that mean that 38 per cent, of the engineers, who are op- erating that run, receive the wage in the opposite column? Mr. Quick: It means that 38 per cent, of those runs are covered by regularly assigned engineers; 38 per cent, of that freight service, in that particular district. Mr. Eidlitz: That would mean 38 per cent, covering that run regularly would receive the wages in that calculation? Mr. Quick: It is based on the percentage of assigned runs, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : I think you may have misunderstood Mr- 450 Quick. What lie means is that 38 per cent, of the engineers operating on that particular division operate assigned runs, and that those engineers, operating on that division, not the 38 per cent., but all of the engineers on that division, will earn either the minimum of $134, or the maximum of $215, or the average -of $176. Mr. Eidlitz: That means all? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Judson: What is the status of the remaining 62 per cent, of engineers? Mr. Duncan: They are in "first in and first out" or the pool service. Mr. Worthington : Mr. Quick, to make that clear, will you state that for Mr. Judson — what about the 62 per cent.? Mr. Judson: I see, in some cases — the first case is that of the Baltimore & Ohio, which had only 11 per cent, assigned on the Philadelphia Division. Mr. Duncan : That applies to the whole 1.00 per cent. Take, for instance, Mr. Eidlitz 's illustration, the Big Four Eailroad, Chicago Division, the engineers in through freight service will earn from $134 to $215, or an average of $176. Of all the en- Tieers operating over that division, in through freight service, 38 per cent, are regularly assigned to regular runs; the re- mainder are in pool service, as Mr. Quick tells me. Mr. Van Hise : Does Mr. Quick assent to that statement? Mr. Quick : Yes, sir. Mr. Worthington: In other words, gentlemen, what I wanted Mr. Quick to state, as he compiled the statement, and as I understand it, is that the maximum, minimum and average wages shown there applies to all engineers engaged in that ser- vice, in that run, and that 38 per cent, of them are assigned; is that right, Mr. Quick? Mr. Quick : I will get the data down and make sure of that. Mr. Worthington : We will have to leave that out then. He will give definite information. Mr. Stone: May I ask one question? The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Stone : I would like to know, in arriving at these fig- ures, where you say "maximum" do I understand vou to make 451 the claim that you have some regularly assigned men in each class of service who regularly make that amount each month? Mr. Duncan: No. Mr. Stone: Then, what does it mean? Mr. Duncan : It means the minimum and maximum that can be earned by an engineer, or that has been earned by an engi- neer for the month. Mr. Stone: You say "regularly assigned." Does that mean that he is regularly assigned to that run? Mr. Duncan: No. Mr. Stone: And he can make that much each month? Mr. Duncan : No. Mr. Judson: I think we had better pass this, until we can- get Mr. Quick on the stand; he prepared it. The Chairman : Then, it is understood that Exhibit No. 14 is passed for the present, for explanation by Mr. Quick. Mr. Duncan : That is right. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 15 shows, under the exist- ing rates of pay and rules, the amount that engineers can earn per month, when working full time, in each class of service. That statement merely indicates what these engineers can earn, when working full time, on the different roads, in the dif- ferent classes of service? Mr. Morrissey: What is full time? Mr. Worthington: How many days a month; how did you figure that, Mr. Quick. Mr. Quick: I didn't figure that; that was furnished by the railroad. Mr. Worthington: Will you have the supporting data in each case! Mr. Quick: Yes. Mr. Worthington: We will get you the supporting data in each case. Mr. Stone : I would like to ask, Mr. Chairman, if I may in- terrupt again? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: That he furnish the number of hours a day a man works, for the full time. Mr. Worthington: I guess the statement will show that, Mr. Stone. 452 Mr. Stone : Take the various classes of service, take the "switching service, for illustration, I can show you cases there, where a man has got to work 16 hours per day and 31 days per month, in order to earn what they say he can earn, working full "time. The Chairman: Does it also mean, if he wants to work his full time he has an opportunity of working the full time each month? Mr. Judson : No. Mr. Stone: I don't know, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman: No. Mr. Duncan: Not necessarily. The Chairman: Not necessarily. Mr. Duncan : It depends on the volume of business. Mr. Worthington: I do not understand that any of the statements, Mr. Stone, from which these calculations were made, involve anything more than the average day's work, at least, the full day's work. Now, of course, I will confirm that, but I do not think these figures were made to include anything more "than a full day's work. Mr. Stone : May I ask a further question — if, in switching service, you would understand a ten hour day? Mr. Worthington: They specify. I guess that is true, a ten hour day, but we will give you the supporting data so you can see just what it is. The Chairman: Then it is understood that table is passed? Mr. Judson: As to that point. The Chairman : As to that point, for explanation and sup- porting data. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: As to the number of working days and the number of hours worked? Mr. Judson: Full time. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit No. 16 shows the maximum monthly earnings of locomotive engineers, in different classes of service. These earnings having been taken from payrolls of the different roads, and representing the actual monthly wages of individual engineers. Mr. Judson: It says maximum. 453 Mr. Worthington : Yes, the ten highest. Mr. Judson: You mean you picked out the highest! Mi. Worthington: Yes, sir, the highest. Mr. Duncan : Picked out the ten highest on each road '! Mr. Worthington: It would simply be a reflex of what the engineers can make. Mr. Stone:, Are these ten men all in the same month, the ten highest that were picked out? Mr. Worthington: The table does not state what month. What month was that, Mr. Quick? Mr. Quick : They were not taken for the same month, for the reason that, where October would be a good month for one road, it would not be a good month for another road, to show the maximum that an engineer would make under the present conditions, so each road picked out a representative month and submitted the report of the actual pay roll figures. The Chairman : So, it is not only a maximum wage, but it is the maximum wage of the maximum month of each road, is that it? Mr. Duncan : That is right. Mr. Quick: That is right. Mr. Shaw : For the maximum ten men, is that right '! Mr. Quick : Ten men. Mr. Willard: Mr. Chairman, I think the point made first was — The Chairman : What is that ? The Chairman : Mr. Willard. Mr. Willard : I would like to ask Mr. Quick : I think the point raised by Mr. Stone was really this : — were the ten men taken from the same month, on the same road ? Mr. Quick: Taken from the same month, on the same road. Mr. Willard : Each road, for some reason of its own, selected a particular month. Mr. Quick : Yes, sir. Mr. Willard : And took the ten men in that month ? Mr. Quick : Yes, sir. Mr. Willard : Who made the maximum wage ? Mr. Quick : Yes, sir. 454 Mr. Shaw: Were those months all selected from 1911? Mr. Quick: Yes, sir. Mr. Shaw: It would seem as if that data ought to appear from the margin of the tahle. Mr. Quick : Yes, sir. Mr. Worthington : I noticed that. I think that ought to show on the table, what month it was taken from. Now, that, on its face, might not appear clear to the Board, but the reason is that, while October might be a particularly busy month on one road, because of local conditions, with different conditions it might be a very light month on another road. That is the reason for it. Mr. Duncan: What was your purpose in producing Exhibit No. 16, Mr. Worthington ? Mr. Worthington : To show the earnings that engineers can make, — the maximum earnings that they can make under existing , schedules. Mr. Duncan : And do make. Mr. Worthington : And do make, as this money was actually drawn by different engineers in the service, during periods of good business conditions, on the particular roads, for the months that were taken. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Worthingon, might not that have been taken on some particular road during a peiiod when there was an exceptionally slow movement of traffic, and where the men worked the longest houis, as was the experience on some of the roads during the severe months of last winter ? Mr. Worthington : Well, I think you will find that most of the roads took the month of October, and the weather conditions were not particularly bad during that month; but, it was a very busy month. Mr. Duncan: That overtime that has been suggested by Mr. Morrissey would not apply to the passenger service, would it ? Mr. Worthington : No. Mr. Duncan: Nor would it apply to the switching service? Mr. Worthington: Xo. Mr. Duncan : Would it apply to the slow freight ? Mr. Worthington : It might apply to the slow freight, but as a matter of fact. I doubt if von will find that anv of the months 455 that were taken by any of the roads were during the winter period. Mr. Morrissey : How do the earnings of passenger men, regu- larly assigned, vary from one month to the other? Mr. Worthington : They would not vary a great deal, and if you were to take the passenger men alone and take the ten highest, you would find you would run, very uniformly, pretty close to these figures ; they would not vary much. Mr. Duncan : Now, referring to Exhibit 17, will you advise the Commission the object of that exhibit? Mr. Worthington: The statement shows the average hour- ly earnings and time on duty of locomotive engineers on through passenger trains and local passenger trains. The- object of this exhibit is to show the lines — take for example the Baltimore & Ohio — each of the columns speak for themselves ; but if you will notice the column numbered 6 which indicates the average hours of duty on those various lines. Columns* 8 and 9 show — Mr. Van Hise: Will you give us there Mr. Worthington — because that is a point that I have been interested in — will you give us a definition of average hours on duty? Mr. Worthington: That means the time that the engineer was called to leave the roundhouse and wh.en he completed his trip. Column 4, you will notice, the average hours that he was on the rail, and column 6 covers the total average hours on duty. Mr. Van Hise: That would include his time then from the time he was to report at the roundhouse! Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Van Hise: Asked by the railroad to report at the round house? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Van Hise: To the time he was discharged? Mr. Worthington: To the time he completed his trip. Mr. Willard: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if this would not be a fairer and perhaps more exact definition, to say the hours of duty would be, in the various cases, according to the existing schedule on that particular road? I think, in 456 the Baltimore & Ohio, for instance, there are rules there that would not be found on the others, and the hours of duty would be based on the time slip made out by the engineer, in accord- ance with the schedule in operation for work at that time. Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Willard: And would include any reasonable time for preparing the engine. Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Morrissey: Then on the roads where he was required to report twenty minutes before leaving time and is not paid for that time under the schedule— on those roads that time would not be included in his hours on duty, would it? Mr. Worthington: How is that, Mr. Quick — was the thirty minutes included? Mr. Quick: Yes. Mr. Worthington: It was? Mr. Quick : It includes any preparatory time that t the rules provide for. Mr. Worthington: And Mr. Morrissey raises the question as to whether, if the preparatory time was not paid for, that would be included. Mr. Quick :" No. Mr. Worthington: If it was not paid for it would not be included. Mr. Morrissey: That was the point I wished to ask. Mr. Quick : Comparison of these two columns simply shows in a considerable majority of instances, they added 30 minutes to the time on rail, to get the time on duty. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Shaw: I have run them down, and I should say that applies to all of them. Mr. Duncan: That is to say, some of the roads have and some have not. Mr. Worthington: Columns 8 and 9 show the average amount earned, per hour, on rail and on duty .The object of this particular table was to give the Board some idea as to the actual compensation received, per hour, for men in this ser- vice ; as it is quite difficult to make any comparison on a day basis because of the fact that engineers work in passenger ser- 457 vice a comparatively few number of hours, while in slow freight service they are out quite a number of hours. Mr. Duncan : By way of illustration, Mr. Worthington, that would mean that the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad had, on the run from Philadelphia to Washington, 606 of those train runs in the month of October, and the average hours on duty for each run would be 4.92 hours ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Duncan : For which the men who were engaged in that service would receive, while on duty, an average of $1.20 per hour ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Duncan: Or an average of $1.44 while actually on the rail. Mr. Worthington: Exactly. The Chairman: I did not understand that. Mr. Duncan : You do not understand that, Mr. Chairman ? The Chairman: I do, with your explanation. Mr. Judson: What is the purpose of that table 17, — what point do you illustrate with that? Mr. Worthington : For comparison, we have another exhibit which shows the earnings per hour of men engaged in other employments. It is very difficult to compare the service of men in railroad service with the service of men in other em- ployments, because the men in other employments will work say, eight or ten hours per day and they receive a certain compen- sation per Lour. They, however, because of weather conditions, will be unemployed a considerable portion of the year. And we were trying to give you some statistics that would be a reflex of the amount of earnings actually received per hour, for locomotive engineers, while actually engaged in performing the work. Mr. Duncan: Now, this Exhibit No. 17 is made up or shows the actual compensation paid to those engineers in that run? It is not an estimate! Mr. Worthington: Yes, exactly. Mr. Duncan: The pay roll for the month of October for those runs? Mr. Worthington: For the month of October, 1911. Mr. Duncan : Now, turn to Exhibit 18 458 Mr. Worthington : It is the same kind of a table, applying to fast freight trains and other freight trains, and is in- tended Mr. Duncan: And would show, for instance, on the Balti- more & Ohio Eailroad, on its fast freight runs from Philadeh- phia to Baltimore, that in the month of October, 1911, 212 runs were made, and the engineers on those runs were on duty on an average of 6.79 hours, and earned while on duty an average ■of 73.6 cents an hour. That is Exhibit No. 18, Mr. Straus. Mr. Judson: Now, what do you claim, Mr. Duncan, that these two exhibits tend to show? Mr. WortMngton: They show two things. This particular • one, for example, will give you some notion of the average hours on duty in fast freight service, and also the average hours on duty of other freight trains, which includes the drag freight trains, and you will notice that very few of them exceeded twelve hours. There is one 13, Connellsville to New Castle. And it also gives you some notion as to the wages per hour, in the last two columns, that the engineers received while on :the rail and while on duty. Mr. Duncan: In other words, column six brings out very • clearly, Mr. Worthington, that the average hours on duty, so far as fast freight is concerned, will be less than ten hours, and that on other freight it will probably be between eleven and twelve, on some roads, and considerably less than eleven .and twelve, on other roads'? Mr. Worthington: Yes. By looking down on the different pages of this exhibit, you can notice what the average hours -on duty have been for the month of October, 1911. Mr. Morrissey : What classification is used here as between fast freight trains and other freight trains, for the purposes of your comparison? Mr. Worthington: How do you divide that, Mr. Quick? Mr. Quick: "Fast freight trains" is the reduced tonnage, in order to make time, and "all other freight trains" includes all other freight trains. Mr. Morrissey: That does not answer my question. What is the line between those fast freight trains and other freight trains in this exhibit? Mr. Worthington: As I understand it, he has explained 459 that those classified as fast freight trains are the ones on which the railroad companies reduce the tonnage in order to make time, and all other freight trains were classified under "all other freight trains." Mr. Morrissey: But, supposing a company operates under different conditions and adds merchandise, ov hauls its full ton- nage in the so-called fast freight service, is it not then classed among "other freight trains"! Is there any speed limit classi- fication in this comparison ? Mr. Worthington: Supposing that were true, supposing" your illustration were true, would it change either the average hours a day or the average compensation per hour ? That is the only point of the table. Mr. Morrissey : No, but it might introduce into the division of other freight trains, on some particular road, trains that would properly belong under the classification stated by Mr. Quick. Mr. Worthington: Would that change that condition? Mr. Morrissey : I think it would change it decidedly, because it would be a slower movement and, naturally, would affect the averages of other than fast freight trains. Mr. Willard? Simply for the purpose of throwing as much light on the question as I can, I would say that the practice on the Baltimore & Ohio is to classify as fast freight trains those trains which haul merchandise and run on regular schedules, and the percentage will, perhaps, be somewhere about 20 per cent, of the total mileage, the constant effort being to reduce, as much as possible, the mileage of trains of that character and to in- crease, as much as possible, the mileage of trains pulling full tonnage. In other words, with the slow freight trains the effort, of course, is made to load the engine to its proper maximum ca- pacity. With the fast freight trains, the engines are loaded to perhaps 60 or 70 per cent, of their capacity, in order that they can make the required time. Mr. Morrissey is quite right in say- ing that if fast freight trains were kept out of the proper classi- fication and put in with other freight trains, it would make an ap- parent reduction in the time of other trains. It would not make any difference in the total of all trains. In the case of the Bal- timore & Ohio, it would make such a slight reduciton that it would hardly be noticeable. As I have stated, a very close watch is 460 kept over that, because the effort is made to reduce the number of fast freight trains to the smallest possible. Mr. Shaw: "Other trains" includes the slow freight,, switching trains, and so forth. Mr. Willard : Yes. That would be different on different rail- roads. Mr. Shaw: When you say "fast freight," that would be rep- resented by 20 per cent, of tonnage? Mr. Willard : Not the tonnage, but the train miles. Mr. Shaw: What percentage of the freight trains would you estimate were concerned in fast freight, as compared with the others ? Mr. Willard: I could hardly say that, because the men hi' fast freight service make more miles. The compensation is the same. Mr. Shaw: The point I was trying to bring out was as to the individual man. Of the locomotive engineers, the very great number of those in the freight service would be concerned with the other freight trains, rather than with those fast freight trains? Mr. Willard : Yes. And, I might say that while with us this percentage is about 60, on other eastern roads, carrying a greater volume of fast freight, it is probably higher. With the Baltimore & Ohio, substantially 80 per cent, of the men are in the slow freight service and 20 per cent, in the fast freight ser- vice. Mr. Duncan: Eeferring to Exhibit 18, under column 6, headed "other freight trains," does that not also show the dif- ferent operating conditions prevailing on different roads? For instance, the average hours on duty on the Baltimore & Ohio, for freight service, through freight trains, apparently, is in excess of that on the Boston & Maine, down a little further in the line. Mr. Worthington: That reflex, though, Mr. Duncan, would also be shown on the Baltimore & Ohio itself, if you just run down that commn and take the different runs. On the heavy runs a man spends more time. Mr. Duncan : So it would be different, not only on the same railroads, but different operating conditions on different rail- toads? Mr. Worthington: Yes. 461 Mr. Judson: "Average hours" means average hours of each day? Mr. Duncan : Average hours for each run. Mr. Worthington : To answer Mr. Shaw, if you will compare column 2, under fast freight trains, on the Philadelphia to Bal- timore run, with column 2, other freight trains, you will have 20,776 against 64,778. That would give you about the ratio. Mr. Judson: Explain, Mr. Worthington, just what total hours on duty and average hours on duty mean. Does that mean the hours of each independent run? Mr. Worthington: Yes, shown separately. Mr. Judson: Each run on each day? Mr. Worthington: It would be the average of those runs. For example, take the first line, Philadelphia to Baltimore, the total number of trains run was 661, the average hours on duty of the 661 trains was 9.89 hours, practically 10 hours. Mr. Judson: Taking such a case as that engineer on the 20th Century Limited, having two runs in one day. Mr. Worthington: He is in the passenger service. Mr. Judson: Speaking of the passenger service, how would that be computed ? Mr. Duncan: He lays off, you remember, ever so often, so the number of the hours that he works during the week would average up, then, on a basis probably suggested by these aver- age hours on duty. If he made a run one day and then made another run the next day, instead of lumping the two runs to- gether, he remained out of the service for a day. Mr. Judson: What would the average hours in his case mean? Mr. Worthington: I understand he runs on the Mohawk Division, doesn't he? Mr. Morrissey: Yes. Mr. Worthington: The Mohawk Division of the New York Central. Sheet No. 4, Mohawk Division, average hours on duty on that division — 2,036 train runs — the average hours on duty were 4.9, nearly five hours. , The engineer would receive an average of $1.26 per hour, while on duty. Mr. Duncan: And, if he made two runs in the 12 hours, un- der this head, in one day, it would average up according to -this? 462 Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Judson : What would that average of 4.9 hours mean in that case? Mr. Worthington: Hours on duty. It means just a little less than five hours he would be on duty, on each one of those trips. Mr. Judson: On each trip? Mr. Worthington: On each trip. Mr. Duncan: You understand that now, Mr. Judson? Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Duncan: That is the average run, on each trip. Mr. Judson : I see, now, it is the average per run. Mr. Duncan : If he made two runs in one day he would get two days' pay. Now, Mr. Worthington, would this same Ex- hibit No. 18 enable the Commissioners to determine the per- centage of fast train runs, as compared with the percentage of other freight runs? Mr. Worthington : Yes ; by the comparison of Column 2 in both instances. Mr. Duncan : That is, for instance, on. the Baltimore & Ohio you simply add the column 2, under fast freight, $20,000 ap- proximately, to the column 2, under other freight, of $64,000, and you would have the total miles run on that division, both fast and other freight. Mr. Worthington: Yes. And, the percentage of one to the other would give the relation. Exhibit No. 19 shows daily compensation, actual time in charge of engine, actual time on rail and average hourly com- pensation for time actually in charge of engine, for engineers in suburban passenger service. Mr. Judson: That is on the same principle, is it not!' Mr. Worthington : It is somewhat different. The railroads, of course, must meet the demands of the public and run these suburban passenger trains mostly in the morning and evening. Therefore, the time from the start, when the engineer makes his initial trip, until he gets through at night, is oftentimes quite a large number of hours. Take, for example, the first one shown. The total time from start to finish is 12 hours 31 minutes ; now the total time that the engineer is in charge of the engine is only 8 hours and 463 46 minutes, and the actual time on the rail is 7 hours and 16 minutes, leaving a total time, while he is laying at the terminal or at the terminal points, of 3 hours and 45 minutes. His ac- tual compensation per day was $6.39, and the average rate per hour, for the time actually in charge of the engine was 72.9 cents. Mr. Judson : Well, what was he paid for — for the time ac- tually in charge of the engine? Mr. Worthington: He was paid the compensation shown in that column there, the total compensation per day; that is what he was paid. During the middle of the day, of course, that varies. Sometimes the lay over occurs at a point where he can get the use of the time to return to his home, if it is available, or within reaching distance; at other times, he may spend the time at a rest house or in the engine house. In other cases it is not so favorable, because his time may be split up. This lay-over time may not be all in one period and he may be required to split it up in two or more periods, where the time would not be of such advantage to him as on other runs. But, these runs are distributed among the men according to seniority rights, the oldest men bidding in the best runs. Mr. Morrissey: Does this table take into consideration the time used in beginning and closing each of a series of trips that go to make up the day? To illustrate, assume that run No. 1 on the Baltimore & Ohio is service between Baltimore and Washington, from the mileage given there it would be suggested* that he made three single trips. Now, on each of those three' occasions he was obliged to report and prepare his engine for service, as explained by the engineers on the witness stand the other day, and also, at the close of each of these single trips, it is presumed that he would do what was required of him. In making these figures, was the time used in each of those trips taken into consideration? Mr. Worthington : The table speaks for itself and shows that, from the start to the finish, he consumed a certain number of hours. The time actually in charge of the engine is shown, and, of course, manifestly could not include any additional time ; the actual time on the rail is shown, and, of course, that could not include any additional time ; the total time laying at terminal or turn points must include the time that you speak of. 464 Mr. Morrissey: But, he must have performed some service under the column "time laying at terminal or turn-around points. ' ' Mr. Worthington: I would not think it was very much. Preparation of a suburban passenger engine for a trip, after it has laid still for three or four hours would not seem to me to be very much of a job. Mr. Morrissey: But, assuming that the rules of the com- pany required him to give as much time to it as he would to make a long trip, would it not be important in a case of that kind? Mr. Worthington: Well, I don't know just what you mean; I don't know what rules a company would have, with reference to suburban service, that would require him to do any special work during the time he was laying over at a turn-around point. Mr. Morrissey : The point I make there, or the point I wish to develop is, rather — I do not care to make any particular point at this time — that if, under the rules of the company, he was required to report 30 minutes in advance of his leaving time on each of those trips, he had given 90 minutes, or equal to an hour and a half, of service to the company. Mr. Worthington: If it was split up into three trips. Mr. Morrissey: Yes; and, if he was required to perform service at the close of each trip, that too would be added. Mr. Worthington: Well, I would not understand that he had anything to do at the close of a trip, and I would not under- stand that he would, in the interval between the trips ; but, you have stated, on the assumption that the railroad company does require him to do something. Of course, if the railroad com- pany does require him to perform some service, I suppose it would properly be considered. This table is made, and that particular column, showing the time laying at terminal or turn-around points. The engi- neer can in many cases, as I stated, get the benefit of the time to himself. In other cases he is not able to. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Worthington, would not the information in respect to run 4 answer Mr. Morrissey 's question. A man was actually in charge of the engine 11 hours and 2 minutes, was out on the rail only 8 hours and 2 minutes; there is three hours for some purpose or other. 465 Mr. Willard: Is. it. not correct again to say that the time would be based, probably, on the working agreement? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Willard : And, that these columns would reflect the con- ditions in the working agreement? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Willard: And, on the Baltimore & Ohio a certain amount of time is allowed for the things specified? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Willard: And, undoubtedly they are reflected in the difference between the two columns? Mr. Worthington: Surely. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Morrissey, Mr. Quick, who prepared these statements, advises me that there is included in the "actual time in charge of engines," all the time that the man is required to be on duty, including any preparatory time you speak of. Mr. Morrissey: On each individual trip? Mr. Duncan: On each individual trip. Mr. Worthington: That, Mr. Straus, would mean, then, that my answer was not exactly correct. It is more favorable to the railroads than I thought it was. The column which shows actual time in charge of engine does include, as Mr. Quick states, the preparatory time that Mr. Morrissey is speaking of, when it is required by the railroads, so that factor is included. The Chairman: Before turning to the next, I think we will have a recess here. This makes a break, does it not? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. The Chairman: We will have a recess, and we will re- assemble at 2.15, if that is agreeable all around. (Whereupon, at 12.45 P. M. a recess was taken until 2.15 P. M.) 466 Aftek Recess. 2.15 P. M. B. A. Wokthingtojst resumed the stand. Mr. Duncan: You left off with Exhibit No. 19. Will you -turn to Exhibits Nos. 20, 21 and 22 The Chairman: Have you got any more of these books of exhibits to spare? Mr. Stone, I think, wanted one or two more. Mr. Duncan: I have given Mr. Stone another copy of the exhibits, making two copies for his side. Your Secretary has two copies, in addition to the seven that the Board has. We have two copies here. That exhausts our available supply to- day. We, probably, will have some more copies to-morrow and will furnish the engineers additional copies at that time. Mr. Veditz: I have only one. Mr. Duncan: What became of the other copy! Mr. Veditz : I gave it back to Dr. Shaw. Mr. Shaw: I loaned my copy to Mr. Veditz, this morning. Mr. Duncan: I stand corrected to that extent. That ac- counts for all the copies which are here. Mr. Judson: These papers, giving the number and classifi- cations of locomotives, do not need any special explanation, do they, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: They do, Mr. Judson, because I think it is important for the Commission to know the class of engines that are in service upon the roads, for the purpose of emphasizing the fact that there has been very little, if any, increase in the size of engines during the past two years and that only on cer- tain roads. Mr. Morrissey: Why are the statistics under this heading for the New Jersey & New York, classed with the Erie, while other operations, as in Exhibit No. 2 and succeeding ones, are for the line itself? Mr. Worthington: I cannot say just why that is so, but it would not seem to me, as long as it shows the number of engines and the class, that it would make much difference what roads they were assigned to. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Stuatt can probably answer that question for you, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Worthington: Mr. Stuart, what is the reason? 467 Mr. Stuart : In answer to your question, Mr. Morrissey, the engines of the New Jersey & New York run into the Erie termi- nal. There are only a few of them and it is a common daily occurrence to operate some of the Erie engines over the New Jersey & New York and we did hot think it was of sufficient im- portance to separate the two. Mr. Morrissey : In that. I wanted to bring out the relation- ship of the New Jersey & New York Eailroad to the Erie Rail- road. Just what is it? Mr. Stuart: The New Jersey & New York Eailroad is con- trolled by the Erie Railroad, through stock ownership. The or- ganization, however, is separate. Mr. Morrissey: But all of the officers of the New Jersey & New York Railroad are officers of the Erie Railroad, are they not? Mr. Stuart : Yes. Mr. Worthington: Exhibits Nos. 23 and — The Chairman: Excuse me one moment. The official sten- ographer asks that, if any errors have been found in the printed reports of the first week's proceedings, a memorandum thereof be furnished to him, or to the secretary, in order that the neces- sary corrections may be made, in printing the report in final form. Mr. Worthington: In the classification of locomotives, Ex- hibit No. 23, which shows the number and classification of loco- motives placed in service since the last general advance of engineers' wages, would seem to be of considerable importance, for the reason that the engines classified as "eight wheel," "Atlantic type," "Pacific type," "Mogul," "ten wheel" and "switch engines," could hardly be regarded as having been pur- chased for the purpose of increasing the train load. "Consoli- dations" under 200,000 pounds were quite commonly used prior to the last adjustment, — many roads having Consolidations with greater driver weight than 200,000 pounds, at that time. There- fore, the number of Consolidation engines with greater driver Weight than 200,000 pounds should be considered when consider- ing this feature, with reference to that class of engine. The Mikado engines, as will be noted, all have more than 200,000 pounds on drivers. There are only 68 of the so-called Mallet 468 type and, even if we assume that all of those engines were put in through freight service, which is not the case,, (as many of them were purchased for helper service), and allowed for the Mikado engines and for the Consolidation engines above 200,000 pounds on drivers, we would have an increase in the tonnage capacity of those engines, on the total number of engines on the 52 roads, of between 2 and 3 per cent., and that 2 and 3 per cent, would be confined to two or three roads, — from which, it would seem that would not be a very substantial reason, that is, — the size of the engines, — would not be a very substantial reason for asking for an increase in the wages of engineers. Mr. Duncan: That is, Mr. Worthington, on the Con- solidation engines that have been put in service since the last advance in wages, only the Consolidation engines that are over 200,000 pounds weight on drivers can be treated as engines of increased size? Mr. Worthington : Yes, because it was quite common to use Consolidation engines of 200,000 pounds on drivers prior to the last wage increase. Mr. Duncan : So, that, of the total of 810 Consolidation en- gines placed in service during this period, only those that are over two hundred thousand pounds would come under the class- ification you have suggested? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Have you had an opportunity to ascertain approximately how many of the 810 are over 200,000 pounds? Mr. Worthington: I gave the figures in my testimony the other day, but I haven't the memorandum with me. That can be very easily checked up. Mr. Duncan: Approximately, a little over half? Mr. Worthington: I don't think there are so many. Mr. Duncan : The Mikado and Mallet and ten-wheel engines are a larger type? Mr. Worthington: Not the ten wheels. Mr. Duncan: The Mikado and Mallet? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, your point is, that those only apply to a limited number of roads? Mr. Worthington : To a very small percentage of the 52 469 railroads east of Chicago. In fact, tlie statement itself shows", the roads which purchased them. Mr. Duncan : Now, will you turn to exhibit No. 24 ? Mr. Van Hise : One question before we turn to that exhibit. Am I correct in supposing that "8- wheel Suburban," "Atlan- tic and Pacific" are mainly devoted to passenger service and that the "Mogul" and "Prairie," and so forth, are devoted to freight service? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Not "Prairie." Mr. Van Hise: Yes, there are "Prairie." Mr. Worthington: I did not notice any "Prairie" or "Pa- cific." I think you are looking at the other column. Mr. Van Hise: On the classification in table 21. Mr. Worthington: I am talking of table 23. We were speak- ing of engines purchased since the last adjustment and I do not think there were any "Prairie" type purchased since that time. v. Mr. Judson: Is there any considerable number of Mallet engines being built for the different roads? Mr. Worthington: At the present time? Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Worthington : I really cannot answer that. Sonic roads- are ordering Mallet engines. I have not the same prejudice against the Mallet locomotive that Mr. Stone has. The rail- roads are forced in a way, to build Mallet locomotives, under some conditions of service. Take it on grades of one per cent, and over, most of the roads, or many of the roads, have & rule that the maximum train tonnage cannot exceed the capacity of the heaviest locomotive on the train ; therefore you are not per- mitted to double head. Take a line like the railroad from Kan- sas City to Roadhouse, where there is 1.2 per cent, maximum srade, the modern Consolidation engine draws about 800 tons — between 800 and 900 tons. If you were to double head this type of Consolidation engine, you would still have a train load of only about 1,700 tons — 1,700 or 1,800 tons, which is not a very long train load, since we are not permitted to double head on grades of that kind, because of restrictions in the trainmen's rules. Mr. Movrissey: Let me interrupt you. Does that refer to eastern roads ? 470 Mr. Woi'thington : Well, it would refer to eastern roads. Eastern roads might have exactly the same conditions. Mr. Morrissey : I just want to correct you, in that respect, to say that there are no restrictions relative to don hie heading under the terms of the eastern agreements. Mr. Worthington: Not now? Mr. Morrissey: No, not now. Mr. Worthington: They tried to get me to do it the last time, but I did not do it, but I thought they had it on some of the ■other lines. Mr. Morrissey No, there are none. Mr. Worthington : The fact is that the Mallet locomotive is coming, just like the Consolidation engine came. When the Consolidation engine first was constructed, the same objection was raised to it as is raised to-day to the Mallet locomotive— that it was too large and too heavy and too logy to be put into through. freight service. The first use of the Mallet locpmotive was for helper service. The motive power men of the* country are working upon the problem of fitting these engines for faster service. Several railroads are using Mallet locomotives in through freight service to-day, and many of these objections which the engineers raise, or which Mr. Stone raises, to the Mallet locmotive will, in my opinion, be overcome. Mr. Judson: Ought not that consideration you have just suggested, be taken with the suggestion pointed out in these figures, that while there are comparatively few Mallet engines added in the last year or two, you think it is a coming condition that will have to be met ? Mr. Worthington : It will, in time, but the use of Mallet en- gines will be necessarily slow. They have not been coming very fast. Mallet engines were used several years ago and they are not in very general use at the present time, there being only six- ty-eight of them now, on the fifty-two railroads east of Chicago and only a few of the fifty-two roads having them. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Worthington, calling your attention io Exhibit No. 24, in which you have classified the locomotives in service in the year 1905, 1910 and 1912 on the basis of weight on drivers, as I understand you, the third column, showing the luco- mtives weighing over 200,0000 pounds and less than 300,00'j 471 pounds on the drivers, represent the engines of these larger sizes! Mr. Worthington : Of trie heavier types, yes. Mr. Duncan: Now, permit me to call your attention to the column describing the locomotives of that class in use on the railroads in 1910, as well as the percentage. At the bottom of the column "Per Cent" I notice 5.7 per cent. Mr. Judson : Which column is that ? Mr. Duncan: That is in the third classification, locomotives weighing over 200,000 pounds and less than 300,000 pounds on drivers. Take the column headed ''10," and the column headed "Per Cent.," immediately next to "10," and at the bottom you will find the percentage 5.7 per cent. Does that mean that, in 1910, the equipment of this type, in service on the railroads in- volved in this controversy, was only 5.7 per cent, of the equip- ment? Mr. Worthington : Yes, and it increased to 7.8 per cent, in 1912. Mr. Duncan : That corroborates your statement that the percentage of increase of the larger engines was only about three per cent.! Mr. Worthington: Between two and three per cent. You see it is 2.1 per cent., taking these percentages here. Mr. Duncan: And, that so far as all the other locomotives are concerned, the same conditions prevail in 1912 that pre- vailed in 1910? Mr. Worthington: Well, not exactly that, because other roads purchased locomotives that would probably show some in- crease in driver weights, even though the Consolidations pur- chased might be less than 200,000 pounds on drivers and that particular railroad would naturally show some increase in its trainload. The special point of this exhibit, however, has ref- erence to the size of the engines. Mr. Duncan: That has been referred to by Mr. Stone as one of the reasons for an increase! Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson: Well, these figures would show, would they not, Mr. Worthington, a progressive tendency to larger and stronger equipment? Mr. Worthington: This table shows that, Mr. Judson. That 472 is correct. This table shows that, because, if you take those not less than 150,000 pounds on drivers and take the years 1900, 1905, 1910 and 1912, you will notice that the railroads are grad- ually getting locomotives of larger size. But, I had particular reference to the last two years, since the last adjustment of wages with the engineers, that the increase of the heavier ca- pacity locomotive is very small and applied to but a few of the railroads involved in this controversy. Mr. Judson: Still, it is a growing tendency? Mr. Worthington: Surely. Mr. Judson: And, cannot in the nature of things progress but little from year to year, comparatively. Mr. Duncan.: But the wages, Mr. Worthington, have in- creased somewhat with the size of the engines, have they not? There is another rate for the Mallet engine. In other words they grow Mr. Worthington: I see the point. Most of tire railroads have either two or three rates of pay; a rate for the so-called smaller engine in freight service and, also, in passenger service and a rate for the larger engines; and now, that the Mallet locomotive is coming in, it is a different rate for that. So that when an engineer steps from one class of engine to another, his compensation is automatically increased under the existing schedule. Mr. Judson: You think that is right, too, in principle, do you not! Mr. Worthington: Oh, yes, I do. Mr. Morrissey : But, it costs the company no more ? Mr. Worthington: What is that? The wages of the man costs more for the individual day's work, do they not? Mr. Morrissey: Because, it may happen that there is a higher rate for a larger engine, and a man steps from a smaller to a larger engine, he does the same work that others of that class are doing under their schedule. To state it more clearly, he performs the same service that other engineers running that class of engines are performing, but I do not think it can be said that, under a circumstance of that kind, the wage rate of an engineer had been increased because you have given him a heavier engine to run. Mr. Worthington: He gets more money. 473 Mr. Willard: Should you not, in that connection, if you take into account the tendency of the engines to increase — • should you not keep in mind the fact that there is a higher rate established for the heavier engines? As Mr. Worthington has stated, the engineer does not run the larger engine at the same rate at which he runs smaller ones. It might be thought, for instance while the engines have increased in size, the engineers have received a steady, stationary rate. That of course, is not true, because the heavier engines carry a higher rate on the- majority of the roads. Mr. Morrissey: And, correspondingly, the company gets a. greater return for his services on that engine? Mr. Willard: Well, while he operates for the company a stronger and heavier engine, he gets a higher rate for doing- it. It is simply an economical arrangement ; otherwise, it would not be done. On the other hand, while the tendency is to run- heavier and heavier engines, he is paid for it. It may be said, that it is not sufficiently large, yet, that is a matter of opinion — still he is paid a larger wage. Mr. Worthington : The point you raise will apply, of course,, to fuel. That is to say, that these bigger engines may not burn, twice as much fuel, but they will pull twice as much tonnage. If you take the case of an engineer, his pay per ton mile, prob- ably, would be lower on the larger engine. Mr. Judson : I suppose this tendency to get larger engines is greater on roads that have the larger grades. Mr. Worthington: Not wholly so, for this reason; the rail- roads had a very serious situation to meet. The tendency of" the rate structure has not been upward, by any means. The expense incident to full crew bills has added largely, as we show by one of our exhibits, to the expenses of the railroads. The safety appliance laws, to which the railroads take no- exception — we agree that they are good and sound, for the- benefit of the public and are very wise, but they have added very largely to our expense. The increases in the wages of all classes of employees, which we have had to meet have in- creased our expenses very largely and the railroads, on the- other hand, have had but one flexible factor with which to meet this situation. The wage question was absolutely inflexible ;: there was no chance for any economies there, in the reduction 474 ■of wages. The prices of materials and supplies have been of a somewhat upward tendency. The full crew bills must be met and the safety appliance laws must be taken care of and the only flexibe factor that the railroads could find was to promote higher efficiency in the operation of plant, and about the only way and about the most successful way that that could be done was to move the tonnage in larger train units, — therefore, the rail- roads, regardless of their wishes in the matter, have been forced to adopt the larger locomotives. It has come with modern practice and it has resulted in good to all sides. Mr. Duncan : Now, turning to Table 25, Mr. Worthington, which is a summary of the preceding tables, showing the lo- comotives in service — directing your attention to the consolida- tion engine, I be'ieve that is where you have figured the number of consolidation engines that have been put in service since 1910 and are of the increased size. Mr. Worthington: Looking at that statement and drawing -a line under the 13.57 per cent, in the last column, beginning at 34.87 per cent, and the figures from there down, it would in- dicate the number of the locomotives that would be capable of heavy train service. In fact, of the 7,412 consolidation loco- motives — Mr. Duncan : I think you had better include in there, the 256 also, Mr. Worthington. Mr. Worthington: Take of the 7,412 consolidation locomo- tives with a driver weight of 150,000 to 233,000 pounds, there are slightly less than 2,000 that have over 200,000 pounds on drivers. Therefore, if you should take all the engines below that figure, plus the 2,000, you .would find that only 12 per cent, of the total number of locomotives are of the heavier type; that is, those weighing over 200,000 pounds on drivers, on all the 52 railroads east of Chicago. Mr. Duncan : From what table do you secure your figure of 2,000 consolidation engines to deduct from the 7,412? Mr. Worthington: It really was 1,966, to be exact. Mr. Duncan: And, those 1,966 engines are shown on Ex- hibit 25? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Duncan: Under the column "Locomotives weighing over 200,000 pounds and less than 300,000 pounds," sub-column 1912? 475 Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Exhibit 26. Mr. Worthington: The next exhibit, 26, shows the average speed of passenger and freight trains in the month of October for the years 1905 and 1911, from which it will be noted that the average speed has been very slightly increased — only a fraction- of a mile, on most of the roads, and in some cases it shows a slight decrease, of about the same and since the speed of trains is one of the reasons given why an increase in compensation should be granted, this table shows that the increase has been very slight, going back through a period of six years. Mr. Judson: I see, according to this, statement, on sheet two, the Pennsylvania Lines East show a decrease Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson : That does not mean that it does not have some trains that run faster' than they did in 1905? Mr. Worthington : No. Mr. Judson: It means the average. Mr. Worthington: Did they not have their Eighteen hour train in 1905? Mr. Judson: I do not know. Mr. Worthington: How about that; did not the Pennsyl- vania have their Eighteen Hour train in 1905? Mr. Duncan : That is average speed of passenger trains. Mr. Judson : They did not have their 24 hour train, I know. This is the average of the trains. Mr. Worthington : Well, would it be fair, Mr. Judson — Mr. Judson: No. Mr. Worthington : To take their train that runs the fastest and say they should have a general increase in wages because of that one train? Mr. Judson: No. Mr. Duncan: This table shows, Mr. Worthington, that even the average speed of the fast trains, the fast freight trains, does not exceed twenty miles an hour, except in one or two in- stances, does it not? Mr. Worthington : There is a note, you notice, at the bot- tom of the table, Mr. Judson, where it says "the increase in average speed in all classes is due to the greater proportion of 476 main line trains in 1911, over 1905, but taken by' groups, the : speed is either the same, or less, in 1911." Mr. Judson: Yes. Mr. Duncan: That only applies to the Boston & Albany, does it not? Mr. Worthington : I believe that is correct ; that applies only to the Boston & Albany Road. Mr. Duncan: But, the point I was making was, this paper : shows that the average speed of fast freights on all the lines, with the exception of three or four, is less than 20 miles an hour. Mr. Willard: I imagine the engineers would be quite satis- fied if it were more than 20 miles an hour, in fast freight. Mr. Morrissey: Is the movement of passenger equipment and second sections of passenger trains, for which freight mile- age is paid, included in these averages ? Mr. "Worthington: I will have to look that up and answer :your question later. Mr. Quick: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Quick says not. Mr. Shaw: ITow do you get at the average speed of fast freight trains ? Mr. Worthinscton : How was this figure prepared, Mr. Quick? Mr. Quick: The average speed of fast freight trains is the fast freight trains which are run on a schedule and these arc taken from the published time cards. Mr. Shaw: And, is this average speed computed on the elapsed time between points? Mr. Quick : From point to point. Mr. Shaw: On regular runs? Mr. Quick : Yes. Mr. Duncan : The scheduled time is — Mr. Quick : The schedule time as shown on the working time cards for 1905 and 1911, and passenger speed includes the pas- senger trains that are on schedule only, not extra trains or re- turning equipment. Mr. Morrissey: Suppose there were three or four sections of a fast freight train; would they be included in your compu- tation? Mr. Quick: No, the trains included here are 477 Mr. Morrissey : According to your statement, I understand you to say that you averaged the fast trains as per their schedule on the time card. You do not then average the actual number of trains run as fast freight trains? Mr. Quick : No, not the sections. We just took the regular trains as shown on the time card. Mr. Judson: If a train runs in two or three sections, you would call it one train? Mr. "Worthington : Yes. Mr. Shaw: Then, this, in a sense, is theoretical because this fast freight operation is based upon the schedules, but not upon the facts of operation? Mr. Willard : That is, assuming that the fast schedules are not in harmony? Mr. Shaw : Yes, I have obtained an impression that they are not in harmony. Mr. Willard : Not always, but I think the plan that is taken is perhaps tbe best. Mr. Shaw : Probably the only plan that could be taken. Mr. Willard: That is what the companies are undertaking to do. Mr. Morrissey : As I understand Mr. Quick 's method, he pre- sumes that all these trains were on time. Mr. Willard: I think, if I may say so, Mr. Morrissey, the mileage is not involved at all. This is simply an indication of what is required in the way of speed, with no reference what- ever to the number of trains. Mr. Morrissey : No, but it has to do with the hours of service in another exhibit; the average hours of service of the men in that class Mr. Worthington: Would you not think, Mr. Morrissey, as a general proposition, though, that fast freight trains do not reach the schedule? They do not do it as a rule. We never run ahead of the schedule and we find difficulty in maintaining the schedule as printed. Mr. Shaw: I have been informed that it is only in very exceptional and favorable circumstances that fast freight trains run on any schedule. Mr. Worthington : Certainly. 478 Mr. Willard: I think we would rather dislike to have that appear in the record. Mr. Worthington: But, when it is put up as a reason for increased compensation, we do not exceed the freight schedule. Mr. Willard: That did not apply to freight trains? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Willard: Increased speed of freight trains? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson : This is just simply an average of the schedule. Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir, taking the schedules of 1905 as compared with 1911. Mr. Willard: I never heard before that the engineers ob- jected to any maximum speed on freight trains. Mr. Worthington: It has not been expressed in that way. The claim is made, as I understand it, because of speed of trains. We left it apply to both fast freight trains and pas- senger trains. Perhaps the fast freight trains may not have been intended. Mr. Willard: I rather suspect they would not urge their objection against fast freight trains? Mr. Worthington: Possibly not. Mr. Duncan: The Board must bear in mind that those figures are shown more for comparative purposes than any- thing else, for the purpose of showing that the speed in 1911 was no greater than in 1905. And, the same basis was used in calculating it for 1911, as for 1905. Mr. Worthington : Exhibit No. 27 Mr. Judson: I wish you would read that title. It is not printed very plainly here. Mr. Worthington: It shows the average monthly member- ship, the number of engineers killed and the number killed per 1,000 members, compiled from monthly reports of the Loco- motive Engineers' Mutual Life & Accident Insurance Associa- tion, published in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers r Journal. The graphic chart simply shows the figures in the last column of killed, the number of engineers killed per 1,000 mem- bers. It would not indicate — take, for instance, the last five or six years, — the chart would not indicate that there was any greater risk or hazard of employment. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Atterbury says that the last column show- 47!) ing the number of killed', per 1,000 members, should be corrected so as to show the number, per 100 members ; that that is a typo- graphical mistake, that has just been called to their attention, but it does not change the chart. Mr. Judson: 100 instead of 1,000! Mr. Duncan: That is right. Mr. Eidlitz: It changes the decimals, that is all. Mr. Judson: Would that be correct, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Shaw: Yes, that is correct. Mr. Eidlitz: Otherwise, it would be a decimal. Mr. Worthington: Is it possible that that is right? You will notice that that occurs in three places ; it is in the heading, it is then at the head of the column and it is printed on the side. Is it possible that mistake was made in three places? Mr. Judson: How many engineers are there in the total membership ? Mr. Worthington : There are 31,000 involved here. Mr. JudsoE : It would be 150 to 200 killed in one year, is that correct? Mr. Shaw: The mistake has simply been carried through — 100 is correct. Mr. Judson: Would not that make a very heavy mortality? Mr. Shaw: They were leaving in the decimal point; in the first instance, it would be three and a fraction engineers killed per thousand. Mr. Duncan : Per thousand or per hundred? Mr. Shaw : It would be three engineers, approximately, per thousand, if we shift the decimal point. Mr. Duncan: Three-tenths of one per cent, of the engi- neers for each one hundred? Mr. Judson: That would be about 200 engineers. Mr. Shaw: All, right, let us say 3y 2 , approximately, for .every 1,000 and if. you will leave the decimal point out, it will make it right. Mr. Eidlitz: If you read the top line, average monthly membership Mr. Duncan: That is right. So, in 1911, out of a total mem- bership of 63,028, there were 219 killed, or .3475 per cent., which would be at the rate of 3 per 1000. Mr. Judson: Does that mean killed in service, or deaths? 480 Mr. Worthington : It says the number of engineers killed. I guess it does, it probably means those killed in service — it is the life insurance showing of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. Mr. Duncan: It shows the number of members that were killed, according to that statement. Mr. Worthington: The men killed in the service, as I un- derstand. Mr. Duncan: The total shown there has been decreased in 1911 as compared to 1900. Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Morrissey : Would not that table be influenced by the fluctuation of the membership of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, that is to say, if the membership — to illustrate: if within these five years the membership had, from some cause, as opposition and apathy among the engineers, if the member- ship actually decreased, would not that necessarily change the ratio in the last column, — while the deaths and disabilities, act- ually, to the engineers of the country, would not be changed by it? Mr. Shaw : It is worked out in percentages per 100 mem- bers. Mr. Judson: Another thing that occurs to me, Mr. Wor- thington, was this table of yours limited to the railroads in this group. I see there were 63,000 members. Mr. Worthington: Our only point in submitting this table was not with reference to whether there were 100 or 1,000 mem- bers, but with reference to, and only showing, by the figures of their own insurance organization, that the risk or hazard of life of a locomotive engineer was not increased. That is the only point we were making. Mr. Judson: This tab.e is based on the total returns from all parts of the country and not this eastern group ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly; yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey : It does not show the number that have been totally disabled from injuries in the service in that period? Mr. Judson : This table does not. Mr. Worthington : No, it is simply in reference to those that were killed. The next exhibit, 28, shows the ages of loco- 481 motive engineers in active service on the 52 railroads ; the sum- mary in the left hand corner shows the total number, 31,673, and it will be noted that those under 40 years of age represent nearly one-half ; slightly more than one-half, 39.6 plus 10.8, that is 50.4 per cent. ; 50.4 per cent, of the engineers in active ser- vice are under 40 years of age; 28.2 per cent, between 41 and 50 years, and the remainder over 50 years of age ; and, it will be noted, further, in the last column, that the average age of the locomotive engineers employed on these 52 railroads in ac- tive service, at the present time, is 42 years. I think that is somewhat above the average age of the aver- age man. Mr. Judson : You mean the average man in service ! Mr. Worthington : Well, of the average man, as you find him. . Is the average age higher than that? I thought it was under 40. Mi*. Duncan: You mean the average age as shown by the. mortuary tables in the insurance companies? Mr. Worthington : Yes. The Chairman : But, that takes the mortality of infancy into Consideration. Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Shaw: I think you mean the average age as shown by the actual pay rolls in industries. Is not that what you mean? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Shaw? Not the insurance tables? Mr. Worthington: No. Mr. Shaw: Things that are parallel to this. Mr. Worthington: I tried to get some information on that and I was not able to get it. Therefore, I could only submit a table which showed that the average age was 42 years, of the men who were in active service and since over 50 per cent, of them are over 40, it would seem that their life expectancy ought to be pretty good. The next table, No. 29, shows the length of service, as en- gineers, of the locomotive engineers on the 52 railroads. We have a similar summary in the upper left hand corner. The table shows, in the last column, that the average length of service of the engineers in active service is now 12.4 years and when it is considered that over 50 per cent, of those men are now 482. under 40 years of age, their prospect for an increase in the av- erage length of service ought to be quite favorable. Exhibit No. 30. This exhibit was not complete and is not now complete. There are some slight corrections to be made on the Pennsylvania Lines and the New York, New Haven and Hartford figures were not in at the time it was printed. We will have to ask the permission of the Board to submit a revised ex- hibit No. 30. Exhibit No. 31, made up of four sheets, shows the number of engineers employed and the number killed from 1900 to 1911, inclusive. The last sheet showing the yearly average under the railroads shows that there was an average number of engineers employed, on the 52 railroads, of 22,925.3; that the average num- ber killed per annum was 81, and that the per cent, killed, to the number working, was .353 of one per cent. Mr. Duncan: A little over one-third of one per cent, were "killed? Mr. Worthington : A little over one-third of one per cent. So glancing at the line "Number Killed," it will be seen that the year 1911, while it is not the lowest year, would not indicate that -there was any additional risk or hazard to the employment. Mr. Shaw: Had you noticed how, almost completely, this checks the blue print submitted? Mr. Worthington: I had not noticed it, but I see that it does. Mr. Shaw: You make it .353 in eastern territory and they make it .3475 for all the railroads in the United States, so it works out pretty well. Mr. Worthington : Do you see, Mr. Judson, the comparison there? Mr. Judson : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Have you also noticed, Mr. Worthington, the gradual reduction in the risk, as evidenced by these figures, from, say, 1902? That year, the percentage being .492, while last year, 1911, it was .246? Mr. Worthington: That would indicate a decrease in the risk and hazard of the employment. Mr. Duncan: Let me call your attention also, to the year 1908. That is the only year that is lower than the year 1911 and it is only 3/100 of a point, as you might say. Mr. Worthington: Well, there is one year lower, 1909. 483 Mr. Morrissey: Was not business comparatively poor dur- ing the year 1908? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Morrissey: Would not that account for it? Mr. Worthington: Well, let us see whether it would or not. Mr. Duncan: This is per cent, of number killed. Mr. Morrissey: That, also would follow. Mr. Worthington : I would not think so, Mr. Morrissey, for this reason: The percentage is very nearly the same; it is per- cent, of killed, to number working, .243 in 1908, compared with .246 in 1911. It would not seem that there was any greater hazard in 1911 than in 1908, according to those figures, although there was considerably more business handled in the latter year. Mr. Duncan : Eeferring to the next table, No. 32, which re- lates to operations under the Sixteen Hour Law. Mr. Worthington: Exhibit 32 shows the number of freight trains run, the number of trains exceeding sixteen hours, and the number of trains tied up under the Sixteen Hour Law from April, 1911, to March, 1912, inclusive, giving in the last column principal causes and facts explanatory of the excess servicec. This table shows that, of the total freight trains run, ag- gregating 3,474,447, 27,888 exceeded sixteen hours, or .8 of one per cent.; 27,229 of this number, representing only .78 of one per cent, did not violate the law, as they were incident to un- avoidable causes, leaving the difference between the 27,229 and 27,888 as being those that the Commission decided should have been avoided, or.15 of one per cent. Mr. Duncan: That should have been avoided? Mr. Worthington: That might have been avoided. Mr. Judson : I see the New York Central has no return on that. Mr. Worthington : I was going to add that my attention was called the other day to the fact that some of the roads were omitted and I believe the New York Central Lines were and we have asked for that information, but we have not yet re- ceived it. Mr. Duncan: So, that, out of the 27,888 trains, as shown by this exhibit exceeded the 16 Hour Law, approximately 650 were not tied up? 484 Mr. Worthington: Exactly, that it what it means. Mr. Duncan : And, the causes and facts explanatory of the failure to tie up are set forth in the last column of this exhibit! Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan : For instance, on the Big Four, they make the statement that their failure to observe the 16 Hour Law was due to derailments and landslides. Mr. Worthington: I think that applies to the road below. Mr. Duncan: The Coal & Coke. Take for instance, the Delaware & Hudson; that shows its failure to observe the law was due to accidents and weather conditions. Mr. Worthington: I don't quite understand that table that way. I understand the last paragraph there to mean the rea- son why these trains were allowed to run up to the 16 hours. An explanation as to why the six hundred and some odd trains did not tie up, I think, would have to be submitted, if that is what is desired. Mr. Duncan: In other words, this does not tell why the 65Q trains did not tie up. Mr. Worthington: Did not tie up. We have already made that explanation to the Interstate Commerce Commission; each road has. Mr. Morrissey: Would not that be under their exemptions under the law, such as washouts and accidents that happened after they had left a terminal, and so forth? Mr. Worthington: Exactly, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Eidlitz : Do I understand then, that, out of this list sub- mitted here, out of those three million four hundred and sev- enty four thousand trains run there were only six hundred and fifty-nine of those trains as to which the Interstate Commerce Commission did not accept the excuse of the railroads? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Judson: How does the matter come before the Inter- state Commerce Commission? Mr. Worthington: Every railroad is required to make re- ports at stated intervals. Once a month we make a report of the movement of all trains that run up to 16 hours, or exceeded the 16 Hour Law and we have to give a detailed explanation of the reason for that. 4So Mr. Judson : Have there not been a number of cases where prosecutions have been instituted in the courts ? Mr. Worthington: There have. Mr. Judson: And, in which some of the railroads have been fined? Mr. Worthington: I am not certain as to that. Really, I am. not posted and I could not answer that. Mr. Judson : I know there have been several such cases in the west, outside of this group. Mr. Worthington : I do not know of a case in the east here, hut there may have been such. Mr. Judson : A road is subject to criminal prosecution under the Act ? Mr. Worthington:' Yes. Mr. Morrissey: I note that nowhere under this exhibit does any road attach to its statement of long hours the matter of moving heavy tonnage of trains. Should not that have been a factor? Mr. Worthington : I don't think so. The reason why is this. I don't believe there is any railroad management to-day over- loading its locomotives. And, the best evidence of that is that the most of the trains will get over the road with the ton- nage. Now, if some particular train falls down because of some- thing happening to the locomotive or some other accident of that kind, it would not seem to me that that would be convincing that these locomotives are overloaded, when other locomotives of the same kind and size go over the road every day and make the schedule. Mr. Judson: Is it not true, Mr. Worthington, that what would be a proper load under normal conditions might prove a very excessive load under abnormal conditions of weather and so forth? Mr. Worthingtou : But, it is the practice of all railroads to reduce tonnage in abnormal weather conditions. That is largely a matter of judgment and what Mr. Morrissey says might apply in an occasion of that kind, because they might not reduce it sufficiently . Mr. Judson: It might have been misjudgnient of the man- ager, in not adapting his loads to conditions ? 486 Mr. Worthington : Yes, there might be exceptional cases •of that kind, but the railroad is the heaviest sufferer when that occurs, because it interferes with their traffic movement and it is avoided as much as possible. I would think that the reason for the large number of failures under the 16 Hour Law during the twelve months period that was taken, was incident to the .abnormal weather conditions of last winter, — being one of the worst winters that the railroads of this country have ever ex- perienced. In fact if you will examine the exhibits submitted by Mr. Stone, you will notice that the failures to which he makes reference nearly all occurred during those heavy winter months. Mr. Judson: We all know that it was a very exceptional winter; it was in my section, certainly, and there were a good many prosecutions against the railroads out there on that ac- . count and the point was raised there that the roads were in fault : in not adapting the service and making provisions for these ex- ceptional conditions when they existed. Mr. Worthington,: It is quite possible that might have oc- curred on some railroads where the railroad manager may not have used good judgment. I do not think that would apply gen- erally to the railroads as a whole and I Would not think it would apply to the 52 railroads east of Chicago. Mr. Morrissey: In rating an engine as to tonnage, what is the basis of the speed that is expected from it? Mr. Worthington : That, would depend altogether on the run, the schedule on which the engine was running, whether it was a fast freight train or a drag freight train. Mr. Morrissey: Assuming it was a slow freight train; a train of coarse freight, such as coal ; in giving its rating, what speed would it be expected to make, under ordinary conditions? Mr. Worthington : The rating is usually made over the lim- iting point of the run at a speed of 10 miles per hour, but that limiting point of the run is, usually, or in most cases, a veiy small portion of the total distance, therefore, the engine is con- siderably underloaded over the remaining portion of the road and can run to 20 or 25 miles per hour. In drag service, a speed, actual running time over a run of 15 miles per hour is a fairly go>od performance. Mr. Morris-ey: But, including the stops and the woik tint 487 is necessary in taking a slow freight train over the road, they rarely average over 10 or 11 miles an hour, do they? Mr. Worthington: Tn some cases less than that. On the Wheeling & Lake Erie, for instance, it averages only about nine miles and the reason for that is that we have a single track railroad with a very heavy train service and the through freight trains on the Wheeling & Lake Erie spend ab.out from 38 to 40 per cent, of their time at meeting points, between terminals. Mr. Morrissey: Is it intended, in rating engines for slow- freight service, to secure from the enginemen and trainmen, hour for hour, in service for which the company pays for each trip ? Mr. Worthington: I don't believe I understand that ques- tion. Mr. Morrissey: Is it intended in rating engines assigned to slow freight service, that the company will receive, in return from the employes, hour for hour, for the service they pay for each trip? Mr. Worthington: Well, I don't quite understand your question. If you mean that the railroads Mr. Morrissey: (Interrupting.) I mean this, Mr. Wor- thington, does the general plan of rating engines in through freight service, contemplate that you will get the amount of ten miles per hour, or the amount of ten hours within 100 miles, for which you are obliged to pay the enginemen and trainmen ? Mr. Worthington: I do not believe, that in any engine rat- ing system, any railroad has ever considered the factor of pay to the engine or train crew. If they ever have, I have never known it. We aim to make the schedules so that we can get the freight over the road on schedule time and a schedule usually runs, on freight trains of that character, from 10 to 12 miles, but in the movement of tonnage over a railroad, the de- lays are influenced largely by the density of traffic, and they do not always get over in the scheduled time. When they do not the railroad pays overtime to the train crew, but I believe I can say honestly that no railroad, in fixing a locomotive rat- ing has ever figured on getting all of the work it possibly could, out of its men. I do not think they ever think of that. 1 know I never did. How it works out in practice, of course, I cannot say, but, in through freight service, we do usually get full time, although on many roads they will get over 7\u to 8 hours, for 10 488 hiours' work, and on the other roads, they won't get over in less' than 12 hours, sometimes 14 hours; but, I don't believe any railroad has ever considered that factor that you speak of, with the idea of getting hour for hour out of the men. Mr. Morrissey: I might say, for your enlightenment, that it is the general impression of the train and engine employes that the ratings are made up for slow freight service with that point in view. Mr. Worthington: Well, Mr. Morrissey, 1 can assure you that, speaking for myself — and I have had very considerable experience in engine rating — that that fact has never come to my mind; I never had it for a minute at any time on any rail- road that I have ever been on. I never thought of the question of compensation to tlje engine and trainmen when I was mak- ing up the locomotive rating. Mr. Morrissey: Well, Mr. Worthington, if you were on a railroad where, according to the rating of the engines, they were getting over the road in six hours on a run of 100 miles, would it not cause you to make an inquiry to determine whether or not they might not haul an additional number of cars be- tween that and the ten hours? Mr. Worthington: Well, if T were to go onto a railroad like that, I would think that was a railroad that was not being very economically operated, because these engines are capable of giving you the most economical service at a speed under aver- age track conditions, of about twelve miles per hour; twelve to fourteen miles per hour and a railroad that would run their freight trains over the road in six or seven hours would have to reduce tonnage very materially and could hardly be consid- ered an economically operated railroad ? Mr. Morrissey: Well, even though you had not that in mind, if it worked out that way, you would not blame the men for gaming that impression of it, would you? Mr. Worthington: Well, I am surprised to hear the men have such an impression. I never heard it brought to my atten- tion before. Perhaps they have, but I never heard it. Mr. Morrissey: The trouble is you have been on a road, Mr. Worthington, where they worked hour for hour. Mr. Worthington: Well, they never complained about it, and 489 we have got a pretty good lot of men over there, too, gentlemen,. There are no better engineers in this country than those on the Wheeling & Lake Erie. Mr. Duncan: Now, . referring to Exhibits 33 to 39, if the Commission please, those exhibits relate to the prices of com- modities for a period and may not be important in this contro- versy, because Mr. Stone, as I understand, disclaims any desire to have the wages of the engineers increased, on account of any increase in cost of living, but we had these statistics prepared on the theory that they might throw some light upon the situation, if the Commission wished to go into that phase of the inquiry. Mr. Judson: I do not suppose Mr. Wortington could help us very much on that ? Mr. Duncan: No; those were prepared by the Bureau of" Railway Economics and by Dr. Dickson, who is connected with that bureau and who made a study of it. Mr. Van Hise: Unless you want to take the time to bring it out here, I will say this is a matter which we have asked our Own expert to take up and scrutinize and verify and find out if these figures are correct, so unless we take a very large amount of time, we cannot work out the significance of these index figures here and their relations to computations ; so, I do not know whether the members of the Board wish to take up that large amount of time now or not? Mr. Judson : No. Mr. Van Hise : Because, we, certainly, in the Board, will be compelled to take it up with the result of the work of our own statistician. Mr. Judson : I think we had better pass on to the next one.. Mr. Worthington: No. 40. No. 40 is shown graphically on No. 41. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Worthington, will you please cor- rect No. 40, if you have not already corrected it? There is a typographical error on Exhibit No. 40, in the lower right hand corner, where it gives the per cent, of increase of the various classes of railroad employees in 1911, over 1900. That should he 1911 over 1907. Mr. Judson : That is corrected in mine. The Chairman: It is corrected in mine. 490 Mr. Worthington : In submitting this graphic chart, in con- nection with Table No. 40, Mr. Morrissey called your attention the other day to the possibility of the comparison not being ex- ..actly fair, because of the different methods used by the various railroads in calculating a day's work. We have an explanatory note which reads : ' ' The average daily compensation of any given class of rail- way employees is ascertained by dividing the total yearly com- pensation of that class by the 'number of days worked' during the year. This method is followed by the railways, under in- structions from the Interstate Commerce Commission, in mak- ing up their returns of average daily compensation; it is the method employed by the Commission, itself, in computing aver- age daily compensation paid by any group of railways, or by all the railways of the United States combined. The same method is followed in the table, which is derived from the re- ports of the railways to the Interstate Commerce Commission. For example, to ascertain the average daily compensation of .station agents, for 1910, in Groups I-II-III combined, the ag- gregate compensation reported as paid in that year to station agents by all the railways of the three groups, was divided by the aggregate number of days reported, as worked during the year by all station agents on those railways. The average daily compensation of station agents for the United States, as a whole, was similarly ascertained, by dividing the aggregate compensation paid to station agents, on all the railways, by the aggregate number of days worked by them." I think that explanatory note referred, also, to the differ- ence in the method of calculating a days' work on the different roads. My point is this, that this table is accurate for the purpose for which it is used. While some of the roads have a different method for calculating the day's work, the method is the same over the entire period, and it is, therefore, a true reflex of the wages of the engine men and of the conductors and the train men and other classes of service for the purposes of comparison for the fifty-two roads. It would not be a correct measure of comparison between two different railroads who had a different method of calculating to arrive at a day's work. Mr. Judson: I think that is explained on the previous page. 491 Mr. Worthington: No; that is shown there, isn't it? Mr. Judson: That is all explained. Mr. Worthington : Very well, there is no occasion for speak- ing of that further. The object of that table is three-fold : 1. Mr. Stone has made the claim that the wages of the engineers have not been increased, in the same ratio as other- classes of service. The table shows clearly, that the engineers- have gone right along and shown about the same increase, from time to time, as the conductors and in most cases, a higher ra- tio of increase than other classes of service. 2. This table clearly indicates that the locomotive engineer is the highest paid skilled workman, in the railroad service. 3. If it should be decided that, notwithstanding the fact that the engineer is the highest paid skilled workman, that he is entitled to greater compensation than he is now receiving, it would be difficult to satisfy the other employees in other grades of service who receive much less compensation, that they are not entitled to a proportionate increase. Mr. Duncan : Let me call your attention to the further fact, Mr. Worthington, that is shown by the first column under the av- erage daily compensation. Mr. Worthington : Exhibit 40 ? Mr. Duncan : Exhibit 40, showing the real amount, or the amount in real money, rather than percentages that the engineer has obtained, by way of an advance, over the real money that the firemen and conductors have obtained. In 1900, the rate for the engineer in groups 1 to 3, inclusive, averaged $3.62; in 1911, $4.72; a difference of $1.10. Mr. Duncan? Their average compensation is $1.10 more than it was in 1900. Mr. Worthington: The fireman was from $2.05 to $2.88; a differnce of 83 cents. The conductor was from $3.03, to $4.04 ; or a difference of 1.01. Other trainmen, from $1.95, to $2.94 ; or 99 cents. Mr. Duncan : Now, let me direct your attention to the part of the exhibit at the lower right hand comer. That shows that the engineers in groups 1, 2 and 3, received a 13.7 per cent, increase in 1911, over 1907, while the engineers through the United States received an increase in the same period of only 5.8 per cent. Mr. Worthington: Yes. 492. Mr. Judson : Why is the blank left in 1911, on the engine men in the United States? It is given for groups 1, 2 and 3, but not for the United States. Mr. Worthington: I happened to have the 1911 figures for groups 1, 2 and 3 especially compiled and I had the clerks of the Interstate Commerce Commission, who have that work in charge,, do that and paid them extra for getting the figures for 1, 2 and 3, because the statistical report for 1911 is not out yet. Mr. Judson : How could you make up the figure then — it is 1910, over 1907, in the United States — you were not able to make it for 1911? Mr. Duncan: We were not able to make the figures for 1911. Mr. Worthington : The Commission's figures were not ready. ~We did get it for groups 1, 2 and 3, by having their clerks espe-. cially engaged in that work, perform the service for us and the}', were paid especialy for it. Mr. Judson: Groups 1, 2 and 3 are those under discussion, here, are they? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: So, it cannot be stated what the average daily compensation of the engineers in the United States is, now? Mr. Worthington : For 1911 we have not the figure, no, sir. " You see we haven 't it for the other classes of employees, either. Mr. Duncan : I am advised by the Bureau of Eailway Eco- nomics if they had undertaken to get the figures for the entire. United States, it would have taken them at least two months more; as, it was impracticable for them to get it for anything, more than groups 1, 2 and 3 involved in this controversy, as it would have been necesaiy for them to go to the original reports filed with the Interstate Commerce Commission. Mr. Judson: Before you leave that, Mr. Worthingtfn, is there any reason you now know of, why the wages should be lower in these groups 1, 2 and 3, than in the other parts of the country? Mr. Worthington : It has always been customary, because of the difference in many factors of railroad operation, to pay higher wages in the Western group and in the Southern group. While the density of traffic is not as great in the Western and Southern groups, the earnings per unit of traffic as measured by the ton mile, are considerably greater. I was, myself, connected 493 with Western roads all my life up to seven years ago, and, in the position of Assistant General Manager of the Southern Pa- cific Company, I had to handle the labor questions and every or- ganizaton that appeared before me laid particular stress on the fact that they were entitled to higher compensation than the roads in the East, because of the difference in living conditions and the difference in the character of the service and other reasons, and as shown by the statistics of the Interstate Com- merce Commission, the rates of pay, like the rates for freight, have always been higher and I see no reason why that should be changed. The other factors are not changing and I do not see why the factors of labor should be changed. Mr. Morrissey : You refer to the extreme west, do you not ? Mr. Worthington: Well, the roads out of Chicago. The most of the roads out of Chicago running west — take the Union Pacific, for instance, that earns from 8 to 9 mills to one cent, ii ton mile, for the freight and then, there is the Burlington and th<> Great Northern and the other lines, some a little less than that, perhaps, between seven and eight mills ; but, take these roads here in the east, we earn along below five mills, and from that up to six mills and six and a half miWs per ton mile. Another thing, we have a comparatively short haul on our freight traffic, while the western roads have a pretty long haul, and their earn- ings per ton of freight are very considerably greater than ours. It is a combination of circumstances, it is not alone the ton miles, but it is a combination of conditions in railroad practice that has made this differential. It has always existed and I cannot see why it should be changed. Mr. Shaw: Is it not true that the chief basis for it lies in the fact that an average higher rate of wage in our other branches of industry is paid in that western territory. Mr. Worthington: That is the reason. Mr. Morrissey: Are there any different conditions between, say, Chicago and Denver and Chicago and New York or Boston ? Mr. "Worthington : Yes, I should think there are very many. The density of traffic is very much less, for one thing, and the character of the freight that is handled is very different. Be- tween Chicago and New York there are very heavy industrial centers, while from Chicago to Denver it is mostly agricultural 494 country and the differences all the way through, it seems to me r are very marked. Mr. Morrissey: I speak, particularly, as to the cost of living. Mr. Worthington: The cost of living, I should say— of course I cannot speak personally as to that. Mr. Morrissey: I am only referring to that in the most general sense, not with regard to any particular comparison. Mr. Worthington : Well, I have not made any investigation to know what exactly the difference in the cost of living would be, but my impression would be that the cost of living between Denver and Chicago would be greater than it would be in this country between Chicago and New York. The reason for that is — take for instance clothing — clothing has to be transported to Chicago largely from the east, and shipped to these western points, and as for the articles of food, in these groups between Chicago and Boston, excepting around the congested centres in the large cities, the cost of living is not high. The cost of living is not high in Ohio or West Virginia. I would not think it was as high as it would be in Colorado or Kansas or any of those places. Mr. Morrissey: That, Mr. Worthington, is very interesting to me, because a few years ago I undertook to get the yardmen a higher rate of pay at Denver and points west, on account of being in a different economic zone, but my railway friends were- prepared to prove that they could live just as cheaply in Cali- fornia and Oregon as they could in Chicago, New York City or other points. Mr. Worthington : Were those your representatives who told you that? Mr. Morrissey: No, sir, the representatives of the railways. Mr. Worthington: The reason why I asked that is that I have always had the other end of it put to me; it was always more costly. Mr. Morrissey : We came to the conclusion- that the me- ridian north and south through Denver is the proper dividing- line. Mr. Worthington: Well, it makes a very long area when you go from New York to Denver, gentlemen, and it seems to me that it is altogether too great a distance for any standardization. 495 Mr. Morrissey; That is what I thought, at the time, but they convinced me I was wrong. (Laughter.) Mr. Willard : Mr. Chaiiman, I can foresee that, at some time during our confeience, I shall want to say something on this subject, and perhaps it would be better that I should say it now, while Mr. Stone is here. It has been my good, or bad, fortune to have conferences at times in the west with Mr. Morrissey and others with reference to the making of schedules that obtain between Chicago and Denver and, invariably, the argument has been urged that, be- cause of the fact that the West was a new country and it costs more to live and the country was less attractive to live in, that the roads west of Chicago should pay more than they should pay east of Chicago, and, invariably, they have done so. I as- sume that that has come about because of the force with which the representatives of labor have urged the case, accompanied also by the fact that on account of the high rate per ton mile that obtains in the West, the railroads were able to meet those con- ditions. As a matter of information only, if the Baltimore & Ohio, for instance, were receiving the same ten mile rate as the Bur- lington, it would increase our net earnings $24,000,000 per year, and that, of course, becomes a very important factor in a con- troversy of this kind. I think, referring to the last statement by Mr. Morrissey, that is a fact now that the switchmen west of Denver have even a higher rate than they have between Denver and Chicago, and the Chicago to Denver rate of enginemen, trainmen, and so forth, has always been maintained, so far as my knowledge goes, on a higher plane than it is east of Chicago. And, in that connection it is interesting to bear in mind that, immediately after the general wage increase in the East two years ago, a move was immediately started in the West, based upon the argument, largely, that the eastern wages had been raised, consequently the western rates should be raised, in order that they might enjoy their differential over the East. Now, inasmuch as that argument has always been urged west of Chicago, and successfully urged, it seems to me that it is quite proper that the reverse should be considered when we are 496 considering wages east of Chicago, unless there has been some change in conditions in the last twelve months, because the claim was urged, and successfully urged, within twelve months, when the roads west of Chicago put in a schedule higher than the one in the East. I can foresee that I should want to say that at some time. Mr. Morrissey : I wish to qualify that by saying that I was not one of those who urged it. Mr. Willard: Perhaps not in the last instance, but your successors urged it, with great force and with considerable success. Mr. Morrissey: Well, I am not going back to indulge in ancient history, or there might be a great many things said. Mr.' Willard: But, that is an actual state of affairs. The wages west of Chicago are and have been constantly higher than they are east of Chicago, and it has been claimed by the repre- sentatives of labor that there was good reason for that differ- ence, and their claims have been conceded to a very appreciable extent. Now, if there is a real reason why wages west of Chicago should be higher than they are east of Chicago, it must follow- that there is just as good a reason why they should be less east of Chicago than they are west of Chicago. Mr. Morrissey : I do not think this is a good place for dis- cussion between the members of the Board, but I might say this to you, which probably may be interesting if not illuminating that the wages of through freight conductors on the Baltimore & Ohio up to 1903 were the same as on the western lines. Since that time they have fallen behind about twelve per cent. So that they have not maintained the same advance as the western roads, so that there has not, in my judgment, been any particu- lar rule or any particular 1 elation of eastern wages to western wages, or vice versa, probably, only in the way of a general argument. The truth of the matter is that tlie activities of the employees in the western country, up until recently, through their organizations, have been greater than those in the East. Mr. Worthington : Shall we pass to Exhibit 42 ? Air. Judson: Exhibit 4] is simply an illustrated chart, is it? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Exhibit Xo. 42 shows for each of 497 the fifty-two railroads actual compensation paid to enginemen during the fiscal year 1911. It also shows what that compen- sation for 1911 would have been had the same rates of pay been in effect as were effective during the fiscal years 1910, 1909, 1908, 1907 and 1900, respectively. The difference between the actual compensation paid in 1911 and what it would have been under the earlier rates of pay represents the proportion of total compensation that was due solely to increased rates of pay. For example, the table shows that the total compensation or enginemen during 1911 on the fifty-two railroads was $41,874,- 264. Of this amount, $2,980,360 represented compensation which was due solely to increased rates of pay, since 1910. This was an increase, in 1911, of 7.7 per cent over 1910.. Similarly, the increase since 1909 was 9.7 per cent. ; since 1 908, 10 per cent. ; since 1907, 13.5 per cent., and since 1900, 30.7 per cent. You will notice that the 30.7 per cent, aggregated, when compared with 1900, $9,801,593. The special point was to show that the engineers have had their compensation increased from time to time, in fair ratio with increased train load or the in- crease productivity of their labor. The next table 43 Mr. Van Hise: Just one word there, Mr. Worthington. I see precisely what this says, but I shall be glad to be informed how it has been made up. Have the actual time slips of the men for those years been taken and recalculated on this basis? Mr. Worthington: The statement shows, under the explan- atory note : "The method utilized in compiling the table was as fol- lows: For each of the years covered by the table, the average daily compensation was ascertained. These averages were ap- plied in turn to the number of days worked in 1911. The re- sult showed what the total compensation of 1911 would have flbeen, under the average rates of compensation operative in the earlier years. By this method all inequalities between the several years, due to varying number of employees, or to vary- ing number of days worked, were wiped out. "The underlying statistics for this table were taken from the annual returns of the railwavs to the Interstate Commerce 498 Commission. For the accuracy of the computation based upon these satitstics, the Bureau of Railway Economics is respon- sible." Now, we can, of course, give you the supporting data, and would be very glad to do it. Exhibit No. 43 is made up for the conductors in the same manner as Exhibit 42. Please notice that while the increase in the conductors' aggregate compensation, compared with 1900, was 32 per cent., compared with 30.7 per cent, for the engineers^ that the aggregate amount of money which the conductors re- ceived was $7,040,439, while the engineers got $9,801,593. Mr. Duncan: In other words, the 32 per cent, increase in the conductors gave them $7,000,000, while the 30 per cent, in- crease of the engineers gave them $9,000,000. Mr. Worthington: Yes, incident to the fact, probably, that the engineer had the higher rate of pay, and of course that per- centage aggregated a larger amount of pay. No. 44 shows the average daily compensation of enginemen and of conductors, in the three groups involved at the present time; also in the so-called southern groups 4 and 5, and in the western groups 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10. The special point of this par- ticular table is to show the ratio of the conductor's average daily compensation to that of the enginemen for the different years. Mr. Duncan: It is shown in the chart on the next page, too, is it not? Mr. Worthington : Yes, it is shown on the chart on the next page. There is one point that I would like to call attention to, however, on the table itself : per cent, of the increase in the year 1910 over 1900. In the United States as a whole, the engineers received a per cent of increase of 21.3, and the conductors 23.3. In groups 1, 2 and 3, to which we have reference, the per cent, was 21.3 for the engineer and 22.4 for the conductor. In the southern group 20.6 for the engineer and 18.2 for the conductor. In the western group 21.1 per cent, for the engineer and 25.6 for the conductor. Now, if you will look at the graphic chart on page 45 you will notice, in groups 1, 2 and 3, the differential between "the conductor and the engineer runs quite uniformly along, with a very slight closing up at the last adjustment. In the southern 499 group you will notice quite a wide differential. That seems to have fluctuated considerably, and in the western group the dif- ferential is very much narrower than either of the other two groups, from which it would seem that this differential is to a large extent a fluctuating factor, and the fact that it has closed up very slightly in the last adjustment, would not seem to be anything which would cause any apprehension on the part of the engineer. 45-A and 45-B. 45-A is a statement of the approximate average actual earnings of employes in certain skilled opera- tions; in the building trades, newspaper printing Mr. Judson: I take it these have been prepared by the Bureau of Eailway Economics, have they not! Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Judson: And they Mr. Worthington: "Well, I wish to say, in connection with this particular exhibit, the information which was available was very meagre. We therefore employed Mr. E. 0. Merchant, through the Bureau of Railway Economics ; Mr. Merchant hav- ing been a Doctor of Philosophy at Columbia University, and he was very highly commended to us by Prof. Seligman. He has been in the employ of the National Waterways Commission and, through the Bureau of Railway Economics, we obtained his ser- vices and we sent him to Boston, Buffalo, Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, for the pur- pose of making this special investigation, and this report is his report. Mr. Morrissey: What is the purpose of No. 45-A? Mr. Worthington: 45-A has a two-fold purpose. In the first place, it shows the range of hourly rates in the different occupations shown, in the building trades, newspaper printing, foundries and machine shops, electric railways, taxicab compan- ies and marine engineers on the Great Lakes. It also shows the approximate annual unemployment of these men because of weather conditions, and so forth. It also shows the average annual wages in the different cities stated. Mr. Morrissey: Don't you think they should add, to the wages given marine engineers, that they also receive their board and room'? Mr. Duncan : That has been included, as stated in. the text 500 in 45-B. You will find Mr. Merchant has made a very full ex- planation of the elements that enter into his calculation. Mr. Morrissey : Where is that 1 Mr. Worthington: Eight attached to it, 45-B. Now, the 'explanation is quite full, and if the Board wishes to ask Mr. "Merchant any questions, we will be very glad to have him ap- pear before you at any time and give you all information. We :made an earnest effort to obtain this information for the in- formation of the Board for comparative purposes. Mr. Judson: Is Mr. Merchant here? Mr. Worthington: Is he here now? Mr. Duncan: Yes, he is here. Mr. Worthington : Yes, Mr. Merchant is here now. Mr. Judson : I suggest you pass it. Mr. Worthington: All right, sir. Mr. Duncan : That exhibit is also offered for another pur- pose, is it not, namely, to show the variation in wages in dif- ferent cities in the states or territory through which these rail- roads operate? Mr. Worthirgton : Yes, it shows that also, gentlemen. It also shows, in the first place, on elevated and subway lines for motorman, conductors, trainmen and such. Exhibit 46 shows the relative proportions that the rates paid freight conductors, trainmen and firemen bear to those paid engineers in 1901, 1905 and 1911. Take conductors, for example, because they are the ones to which the engineers think they should have a higher differential, and by comparing the third column, showing the per cent, in 1901, with the third column, showing the per cent, in 1911, it will be noted that, while the differential has changed on many of the roads, the change has been comparatively slight, and there are about as many rates above as below, so there are some on both sides of them. Mr. Duncan: That is, as many roads have changed the dif- ferential in favor of the engineer as there have been roads which "have changed it in favor of the conductor as against the en- gineer? Mr. Worthington: Yes. The next table, 47, shows the ag- gregate compensation to enginemen, and the aggregate train miles for the fiscal years 1900 to 1910 for the United States and for groups 1, 2 and 3. This table is illuminated with charts 501 48 and 49. Chart 48 shows the increase in the enginemen's compensation, for groups 1, "2 and 3, taking 1900 as unity. It also shows the increase in the train miles. Mr. Judson: What does the drop in 1909 indicate in that chart! Mr. Worthington: The depression in business that com- menced in 1908, you know. This is the aggregate money that is paid, and these are aggregate train miles. Of course, when busi- ness dropped off, both the total compensation and total train, miles would naturally show a recession. Mr. Duncan: In every instance the engineer's wages have kept pace with the increase in train miles, and as a matter of fact gone ahead of the train miles ! Mr. Worthington: Yes. For instance, if you take from 1900 to 1910 Mr. Duncan: That is Exhibit 48, Mr. Straus. Mr. Worthington: Looking at the graphic chart, which you will catch more readily, Dr. Van Hise, take No. 48; you will notice the increase in the aggregate wages paid to the engine- men was about 68 per cent., while the train miles increased about 30 per cent. Mr. Duncan: And it is train- miles that the engineer and the engine are making! Mr. Worthington: That is what the engineer does for us, he runs the train miles. Chart 49 is the same kind of a graphic chart covering the United States as a whole. The same result is indicated there. Mr. Morrissey : Mr. Worthington, I was out at the time you started to refer- to No. 48. What is the purpose of the chart on that exhibit? Mr. Worthington : The chart shows that the engineers ' ag- gregate compensation has increased in a considerably higher ratio than the increase in the train miles of service, and the train miles of service represent the work performed by the engineers. Mr. Morrissey : Would not ton miles be a better example of the performance of the engineer between those two periods ? Mr. Worthington: No, because in that case the engineer would not want to be pail on the ton mile basis. He is paid on a train mile basis. 502 Mr. Morrissey: Might not this show, as between these two periods, that the engineers were given an. opportunity to run more miles than in the preceding period ? Mr. Worthington: He did run more miles, and he got very much more money for it. Mr. Morrissey: But he didn't get money in proportion to the increase in the number of train miles, did he? Mr. Worthington : Very much greater. In other words, take 1900, and compare it with 1910. The increase in engineers' compensation was 68 per cent., and the increase m the train miles of work performed by the engineers was 30 per cent. Mr. Morrissey : I read a statement in a newspaper the other day, where one of the roads interested in these proceed- ings, for the year just closing, where it was stated that with an increased gross tonnage ran four million less train miles. Now, how would a situation of that kind operate on the wages of the engineer ? Mr. Worthington: Well, the engineer has, right along; with the increase in the train load, been getting his full share of the increased earnings per ton mile. This statement does not mean that the railroads have been getting more work per train mile out of the men, but this increase in the tonnage per train mile, as I explained before, is the only possible economy that the rail- roads could make in operation, and in doing so they could not let the engineers absorb all of the increased profit; they divided it up, and the engineer got his full share. These economies had to take care of a great many other things besides the wages of employes. Mr. Morrissey : Would not the real measure of efficiency of a locomotive engineer, as between 1900 and 1910, be the average ton mile performance for each year for each engineer during each year? Mr. Worthington: I would not think so, no. I will ask you this : Take the Wheeling & Lake Erie, where we increased, the train load by grade revision work, frcm 2,000 to 2,600 tons. The engineer, after the grade revision work was completed, was using exactly the same locomotive, pulling the same throttle, working the same reverse lever, and performing exactly the same service that he did before. Now, is there any reason to insist that he should be paid any compensation on account of the 503' increase in the ton miles of that train. That would go up very high, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Morrissey: In that particular case, I would say that probably that would not be a proper measure, or basis for ap- preciation of his wages, but where his efficiency, between 1900 and 1910, is largely measured by the increased tractive power of the locomotive, I should think the ton mile performance would be an important factor. Mr. Worthington : My position is that the ton mile would produce a very high result ; that if you were to use it, it would look grotesque. The engineers ' wages would look all out of proportion if we based the wages on the ton mile. Now, he is paid, on the train mile; he is paid for train miles, and my contention is that our exhibits, as shown here, clearly show that the engieners' wages have been advanced, right along, from year to year during the past ten years, and that we have shared with him the increased profit that we derived from the increased train load. Mr. Duncan: Suppose you used the ton miles as a basis of compensation for fixing the wages of the engineers on the "Wheeling & Lake Erie; what would become of the engineer that is running eastbound on that railroad with very light tonnage? Mr. Worthington: I raised that question to Mr. Morrissey the other day, and 1 .thought he saw the point of that. The ton miles, of course, are based on the revenue ton miles. All of these statistics are made on that basis. The most of the trains on the Wheeling & Lake Erie eastbound are run in empty, and if you were to pay engineers on the basis of revenue ton miles, they would get nothing for the eastbound movement. Mr. Willard : Mr. Worthington, I would like to ask if, after fill, that matter has not been given consideration in the higher rates paid for running the large engines, if not in the justice of paying the highest rates? Mr. Worthington: Yes, that has been given consideration, and it has also been given consideration, Mr. Willard, in the frequent increases in pay that have been granted during the last ten years. As shown by this table we presented a few moments ago, which shows the gradual increases of the wages of the engi- neers (and that showed aggregate money), it represented an increase of thirty per cent, and the train miles showed an in- 504 crease of thirty per cent., and the aggregate compensation, in dollars, shows an increase over 1910 of 68 per cent. The in- dividual engineer, however, got thirty per cent. more. And we feel that these records show that these engineers have been rceiving their full share of the increased productivity of their labor, incident to grade revision work and the larger size of locomotives, although the engineer has had little or nothing to do with evolving the methods for bringing about these econo- mies, but he has shared fully in the reward that has been de- rived from that work. Mr. Willard: In anj- event, his share has been a matter of liberal agreement? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: Since larger engines have come into effect, larger rates have been paid ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Mr. Willard: And those rates have been paid through conferences, have they not ? Mr. Worthington : Exactly. And results that have happened from time to time would simply confirm that statement. Mr. Duncan: Is that statement not further confirmed by Exhibit 50, Mr. Worthington? Mr. Worthington: Exhibit 50? Exhibit 50 is a table show- ing the expenses and wages, with statistics relative thereto, as shown by the statement for the calendar years 1905 and 1911, compared with 1900. Mr. Judson: Which one are you referring to now? Mr. Worthington : Fifty. Mr. Duncan: Take the New York Central, will you please? Mr. Worthington: That statement would require consider- able study as between the different roads. Take, for example, the first block of figures, units, as rep- resented by tons and passengers carried and take, for example, the New York Central Eoad. There was an increase over 1900, as shown by the last col- umn, of 48.72 per cent. ; the gross operating expenses on the New York Central Eoad for the same period increased 118.7 per cent. ; the operating expenses, exclusive of wages, increased 73.2(1 per cent. ; the wage increase in that period was 149.99 per cent 505 The units of tons and passengers per train mile increased only 24.56 per cent, and the increase in the number of employees was 87.17 per cent, and the train miles, both passenger and freight, increased 45.66 per cent. Boiled down, it means that 87 per cent, more employees bandied 45 per cent, more train miles and were paid 149 per cent- more wages. Mr. Duncan : Carrying how many more units, tons and pas- sengers? Mr. Morrissey: Do you know, Mr. Worthington, how really low the wages of some of the employees of the New York Central were, in 1900, as compared with other roads in the territory? Mr. Worthington: That may be true and perhaps I have taken one of the high points in making my comparison, but the table is submitted and it shows for itself with reference to all of the roads. Mr. Morrissey: The point I wish to make, in that connec- tion, is that you took a road that had a rather low basis for a large class of its employees in 1900. Mr. Worthington: Well, what railroad would you suggest? Mr. Morrissey : I would take the Baltimore & Ohio. Mr. Worthington: The Baltimore & Ohio showed, units, tons and passengers carried, 27.2 per cent.; operating expenses in- creased 48.65 per cent.; operating expenses, exclusive of wages, 82 per cent. ; wages 38.68 per cent. Tons and passengers per train mile, 6.99 per cent. ; number of employees, 20.22 per cent. ; train miles, 18.97 per cent. In other words, 20 per cent, more employees handled 18 per cent, more train miles and received 38.68 per cent, more wages. Mr. Judson: That is shown in this illustrative chart, is it riot, just beyond? Mr. Duncan : No, there is no chart covering that. Mr. Worthington: I do not believe there is any chart with that, Mr. Judson. That table, in some cases, gentlemen, shows up and down. It shows the other way with reference to some railroads because of local conditions, but as a whole, by examination, you will find it mostly shows that wages are out of proportion with the increases of business handled and that wages has had its full share. 506 No. 51. The Chairman : Well, we have arrived at half past four. Mr. Worthington : I was in hopes you would let me go along -until five to-day. Mr. Judson : There are not many more. I think Mr. Worth- ington could throw much light upon and, I know, he is very .anxious to leave to keep a Western engagement. Mr. Worthington! I want to leave to-morrow. Mr. Judson : I think we had better go on a little while. Mr. Van Hise : I think we should go on until five o 'clock. Mr. Duncan: I think we can finish in the morning ver) r easily, Mr. Worthington. Mr. Stone : Before he leaves the country I should like to ex- amine him for at least a few minutes. Mr. Judson: Suppose we go on for a few minutes and see .how far we get. The Chairman : All right, proceed, Mr. Worthington. Mr. Worthington : Table 51 is illustrated by Table 52. The Chairman : I do not want to hurry you, Mr. Worthing- ton. You understand you are not to hurry yourself? Mr. Worthington: Thank you, Mr. Straus and I do not. want to deny Mr. Stone the pleasure of cross examining me, because I will enjoy it. Mr. Stone : I do not want to forego the pleasure, either. Mr. Worthington: Graphic Chart 52 shows the increase or decrease, compared with 1900, in the daily average compensa- tion for engineers, compared with the average receipts per ton mile and average receipts per passenger mile, for the United States, as a whole. No. 53 shows the same data, for groups 1, 2 and 3. If you will notice, the engineers' daily compensation has shown quite a satisfactory increase, while the receipts per passenger mile and per ton mile are somewhat on the decline. No. 54, which is illuminated by graphic chart No. 55, shows the average receipts per passenger mile in the Eastern, South- ern and Western groups. That is simply to give the Board a reflex of the differences in rates, per unit per passenger mile, in the three groups. The Chairman: Was not that controlled very much by legis- lation ? 507 Mr. Worthington : To a certain extent. There is this to be said, however : The difference is largely influenced, no doubt, by density of traffic. Nos. 56 and 57 show the average train load ; No. 56 showing the average train load by groups, for the Southern, Eastern and Western groups. It will be noticed the first column shows the increase in the train load from 1900 to 1910, of the roads in groups 1, 2 and 3, of 40.7 per cent. In the table 56-a, the train loads will not check exactly with the train loads shown in groups 1 ? 2 and 3, because all of the roads are not included in the 52 roads here represented. It is worthy of note, however, in Ex- hibit No. 56-a, that the train load in 1910 was 479 tons and for 1911, 480.7 tons, practically the same. Mr. Duncan: That is the average train load of all these- railroads ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, the average train load of all of these railroads being practically the same. Mr. Duncan: Now, call the attention of the Commission! to the fact that the last two columns, also, show that the train load has increased on some roads and decreased on others Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And, the conclusion that you drew from that.. Mr. Worthington: The average of the 52 railroads, how- ever, shows an increase of only li/ 2 tons on the average. It would hardly be any reason for an increased compensation of- enginemen. Mr. Van Hise: In using tons, you use always, the 2,000" pounds ton do you not, throughout these exhibits? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Van Hise: Whether you are using material which is ordinarily classed by long tons or short tons ? Mr. Worthington : Do I do what ? Mr. Van Hise: There are certain materials like iron ore, for instance, that are dealt with by long tons, but, all these calculations would be by short tons? Mr. Worthington: In railroad statistics, the short ton is used, but in making rates often times the rates would be made on the long ton basis ; but in making statistics they use the short ton. 508 Mr. Duncan: In 56-A you say average train load. I sup- pose you mean average revenue train load? Mr. Worthington: Average revenue train load, that is of -freight, in the train. That is arrived at in this way. You know the railroads run many empty trains on which they get no reve- nue; the traffic often times will preponderate one way. Take a railroad like the Wheeling & Lake Erie, the unbalanced traffic on that railroad will vary in different years from 35 to nearly 50 per cent. That is to say, the light tonnage will represent 50 per cent, of the total in some periods. The year before last, as I remember, it was 46 per cent. Of course, the. rail- road gets no compensation for hauling the empty train and they are not included in this revenue train load. Mr. Van Hise: They are not included? Mr. Worthington : No, there is no tonnage included, but the .train miles are included. For instance, the train. miles in both directions are divided into the total revenue ton miles, to arrive . at the average train load. Mr. Van Hise : That is, if you have a load of 2,000 tons one way and all empties the other, the average for those two trains would be 1,000 tons? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Van Hise: And, your figures are on that basis? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. You divide the total train : miles, including your empty train miles, in order to arrive at your average revenue train load, into the revenue ton mile. The next table, No. 57, with graphic chart 58, which makes it very quickly understood, is a reflex of the character of the traffic handled in the Eastern, Southern and Western groups. It is simply submitted to the Board as a matter of information, in order that you might be able to note the percentage of the products of agriculture, products of mine and merchandise and manufacture and so forth, that are carried by the railroads in the eastern district, compared with the southern and western districts. As you will notice, there is a marked difference and this means a difference in the local conditions and in the char- acter of service that has to be performed in order to handle this tonnage. No.. 59 shows the freight and passenger traffic density on the various roads and graphic chart No. 60 illuminates that. The 509 object of that particular chart is to show to the Board the differ- ence in the traffic density on the railroads that are represented before you, showing the difference in the earning capacity in a way, of these various roads and gives this. Freight density, for example, means the tons of freight per mile of line and the passenger density means the passenger miles per mile of line. It hardly seemed to us that all of these roads should be judged by one measuring stick. Mr. Duncan: It shows the crowded condition of the line, does it? Mr. Worthington : I beg pardon ? Mr. Duncan: Do the statistics show the crowded condition of the respective lines ? Mr. Worthington: Yes, that is' in a measure overcome, though, by the lines with a very heavy traffic density through 2, 3, and 4 tracks. Mr. Van Hise: This was all on the basis of single track mileage '? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Chart No. 61 shows the freight density and passenger density of the railroads in these eastern, western and southern groups, from 1900 to 1910. Mr. Duncan : That is on the basis of per mile of line ? Mr. Worthington: yes, ton miles per mile of line and pas- senger miles per mile of line. No. 62 shows the amount and per cent, of stock, respectively, paying no dividends during the fiscal year 1911, those paying dividends of less than six per cent, and those paying dividends of six per cent, and over. It will be noted in the last three columns that 24.5 per cent, of the 52 roads paid no dividends ; 25.9 per cent, paid a dividend of less than six per cent, and 49.6 per cent, paid a dividend of six pej.* cent, or over. Mr. Van Hise : The history of the stocks is in each case omitted. Mr. Worthington: Yes. I think we could get that for you if you wish it. We did not purposely omit anything. Mr. Van Hise : I did not mean to intimate that. I have asked for the substance of that in my request. Mr. Judson : I think the remainder of these exhibits really explain themselves, unless there is something you want to call our attention to. 510 The Chairman : I think we had better go into those. Mr. Worthington : Shall I go ahead? The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Dnncan : Table No. 63. I think you have something of interest to say to the Commission on that, as to the graphic chart. The Chairman : I want you to bear in mind, Mr. Worthing- ton, that we do not want to hurry you. This information you have given us, so far as I am concerned, is very illuminating. "We do not want you to feel you are hurried in any way. Mr. Worthington: I do not feel I am, Mr. Straus. I ami not afraid of anybody hurrying me but my good friend Stone, and I will have to watch him. I think I am not being hurried at all. Mr. Stone : I assure you I shall not hurry you. Mr. Worthington: Before the Commission adjourns, there is just one thing I would like to say, with reference to tables 63 to 67, but not including 66-A — I would like to bring that up tomorrow — 63 to 67 have reference to the net corporate income and the surplus, as shown in Exhibit No. 67. That exhibit was originally compiled to show the collateral effect of the increase in compensation to other classes of service, on the assumption that the increase would be in equivalent ratio to the increase asked for by the engineers and it was my intention to ask the Board to consider not only what that increase would amount to on this basis, but what it would amount to and how it would affect these roads, if only one-half of that increase were granted and, to take one step further^ if one-fourth of that increase were granted. After getting this table in, though, I find that all of the railroads have not prepared it with the same understanding ; some of the roads have not included, in the net corporate in- come, the income from other sources, on the theory that the operations of the railroad alone should be considered with ref- erence to the wages. We are not wholly sure that that is right and we do not want to submit any figures to the Board, on that basis, until we have had an opportunity to consider that feature very carefully and we want, with the permission of the Board, to revise No. 67, and those other exhibits, 63, 64, 65, and 0, so that we will be prepared to say that the exhibits as made are oil the same with reference to those two items of net corporate in- come and surplus as between all of the roads and 1 find that there is a difference, because they did not all understand it alike. We will have that corrected. The Chairman: That is, Exhibits 63 to 6C, are to be revised? Mr. Worthington: 66 really dosen't need revision, because that is simply taken from their operating reports. 63, 64 — 64 is the graphic chart showing the net corporate income per mile of line and that must check with this statement. .65 is surplus per mile of line and that must check with this statement. 66 is correct as it sIioavs operating revenues, operating expenses and net operating revenues. The point of that particular table was to show that very many of the weaker lines had very little net operating revenue per mile of line, at the present time and would not have much to spare for wages or any other increases. 67 is the other table Mr. Van Hise : 66- A stands ? Mr. Worthington: That stands. I will go into an explana- tion of that in the morning. The last column of 67, estimated collateral increase, is correct, showing the annual estimated in- crease of the engineers, but when you put that against the net corporate income and against the column "surplus" it might be misleading and we want to be sure that it is correct and that those two are made on the same lines. Mr. Morrissey: Can you give the Board a statement show- ing that in past increases of train and enginemen, the collateral effect to other employes, has been the same as you have esti- mated it for this table ? Mr. Worthington : I think the answer to that problem, Mr. Morrissey, is reflected in this table here, showing the increases from 1900, to the engineers, conductors and all other classes of employes. Mr. Morrissey: Does that take in all classes of employees"? Mr. Worthington : It gives a list of those that are included at the top. Did you notice it? Mr. Morrisey : What is the number of that exhibit? Mr. Worthington : No. 40. Mr. Judson : Your position, as I understand it, Mr. Worth- ington, is that vou have gone the rounds and they have all been increased and, now, this is starting over again? 512 Mr. Worthington: That is it. The engineers nearly always lead the procession — the conductors did the last time. If you will look at Table No. 41, you will find that the increase to other employees ran along pretty uniformly with the increase to the engineers. Now, there are included in that list: Station agents, other station men, enginemen, firemen, conductors, other train- men, machinists, carpenters, other shop men, section foremen, '-other track men, switch tenders, crossing tenders, watchmen, ieTegraph operators and despatchers. Mr. Morrissey : Clerk are not included ? Mr. Worthington : Clerks are not included. Do you wish to adjourn now? T am willing to go ahead if you wish. The Chairman: Mr. Worthington, we will adjourn the ses- .sion now and begin to-morrow morning at ten o'clock, if that is . convenient to you. Mr. Worthington : Entirely so. (Whereupon, at 4.50 P. M. an adjournment was taken to .July 23, 1912, and 10.00 o'clock A. M.) 513 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 23, 1912, 10.00 A. M. The Chairman : Mr. Worthington, we are ready to proceed. B. A. Worthington resumed the stand. Mr. Worthington: I wish to correct a statement made just hefore we adjourned yesterday evening, and to state that the fig- ures on Exhibit No. 63 referring to net corporate income and surplus which have been graphically shown in Exhibits 64, 65 and 66, are correct. I find that those particular figures relating to the net corporate income and surplus per mile of line were obtained by the Bureau of Railway Economics from the returns of the railways to the Interstate Commerce Commission. While the net corporate income and surplus figures shown on Exhibit 67 were obtained directly from the railroads themselves, it was to the. latter that I had particular reference, as they were not made on a uniform basis, and I would still like to have the per- mission of correcting Exhibit No. 67, correcting those two cob. umns, as the last column which was the primary object of the exhibit is correct, as it stands, showing the estimated collateral increase in the compensation of other classes of service, based upon the same ratio of increase asked for by the engineers. Therefore, taking up Exhibit 63 — The Chairman: Do I understand you, then, Mr. Worthing- ton, that as to Exhibits 63, 64, 65 and 67 it is not necessary to revise. Mr. Worthington : 66 instead of 67 — 67 needs revision. The Chairman : The others need not be corrected ? Mr. Worthington: No, they are correct as they stand. The Chairman : And, 67 you desire to revise, as to — Mr. Worthington: The net corporate income and the sur- plus. Taking up 63, a glance at any of the columns will indi- cate the varying earning capacity of the 52 railroads, the mini- mum and maximum are quite wide apart, amounting to as much as five and six times. It is well to note under the column "net corporate income," that eight of the 52 railroads show a deficit, under present operations. Mr. Morrissev: What is the argument under that exhibit? 514 Mr. Worthington: To show the varying operating condi- tions as reflected by the varying earnings, on the theory that the ability to pay is naturally measured by what the railroads take in. Mr. Morrissey: Do you believe that a road like the Lacka- wanna, the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie or the — Mr. Worthington: Central Eailroad of New Jersey? Mr. Morrissey : Central Railroad of New Jersey should pay its engineers more than the Baltimore & Ohio, the New York Central or the Wheeling & Lake Erie! Mr. Worthington: Yes, more than the Wheeling & Lake Erie ; for the reason that the earning capacity per mile of line, or in the aggregate, is very much greater than on any basis of cmparison: the operating conditions. are entirely different, the earnings per mile are greater and from every basis of compari- sons the other roads have a considerable advantage. In an- swer to your question, though, if you will look at Exhibit 64, I have there brought out, perhaps, the point which you would like, to make, showing the marked advantage of the roads, say above the Kanawha & Michigan, with three or four exceptions. That table shows the net corporate income per mile of line and just how far the railroads crossed over that line. The white blocks show the deficits. It will be noted, however, that many of the black blocks scarcely get over the line. Now, the question is, as I would see it: Should all of these other lines that are so near the line, be compelled to pay a higher scale, up to the average of the Pittsburgh & Lake Erie, the Central Railroad of New Jersey and the Lackawanna? Mr. Morrissey: What material differences are there in re- spect to the duties and responsibilities of the engineers on the two classes of roads'? Mr. Worthington: Well, I suppose I should answer that by asking what the difference between the duties and responsibili- ties of a clerk in a general merchandise store in a small town in Ohio is, compared with a clerk in a general merchandise store on Fifth Avenue, where he might get twice as much pay. It is not altogether a question of duties and responsibilities. There are many other factors to be considered in connection with the pay of men in any particular capacity. The locality 515 must be considered and the difference in the operating condi- tions. There are many differences, which, to my mind, would warrant paying more wages on the more prosperous road than on the poorer road. Mr. Morrissey : But, assuming that the poorer road re- quires as high a standard of service for an engineer as the bet- ter situated financially road, then what? Mr. Worthington : Well, the poorer road does not have any of those block signals, as a rule, that are said to increase the risk and responsibility of the engineer; and they do not have many other features that the richer road has. And, if the question was to be settled, solely on the capacity of the locomo- tive engineer, your view point might be proper, but my notion is, there are a great many factors to be considered, aside from the mere ability or responsibility of the engineer. 65 shows how few of the roads got over the line of surplus per mile of line under present operating conditions. The white blocks show the deficits and a large number of the roads scarce- ly got over with the black blocks. No. 66 shows the operating revenues, operating expenses and net operating revenue per mile of Une on the different roads, this statement being prepared to emphasize the difference in the earning capacity of these various railroads. No. 66-A. This table shows the equivalent relation of the engineers' compensation to the net operating revenue and the ratio of the engineers' wages to transportation expenses in per- centage on the various roads under the existing conditions, as shown by the inside line that follows down the scale, the out- side line being the effect of the proposed standardization. This shows, to my mind, in a striking manner, that while you might get somewhere near a standard wage scale to the engi- neers, you would produce a far greater variation in these ratios in so far as the railroad is concerned. And, by noting the line at Boston & Maine, Cincinnati Northern, Dayton & Union, De- troit, Toledo & Ironton, Dunkirk, Allegheny Valley & Pittsburgh, and Lake Erie and Western and some others, — these roads, while they show at the present time a higher equivalent relation of engineers ' wages to net operating revenue, yet they are paying lower scales than some of the more prosperous roads and the 516 standardization would only augment or increase this difference, ■as shown by this chart. In other words, if we are to have a standardization of wages and it produces this sort of effect on the net operating revenues of the railroads, it would seem to be but fair to find some method of producing a standard return on the capital invested in rail- roads. Mr. Judson: What is the first column there? 66-A you are -on now, are you not ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : What is the first column? Mr. Worthington: Those figures are the percentages and note the top one, for instance. The Baltimore & Ohio at the present time is paying an amount for engineers' compensation that is equivalent to 13.95 per cent, of the net operating revenue. If the proposed scale, asked for by the engineers, were put into effect, it would increase this to 17.43 per cent. The Chairman : Eun your eye right straight across ' ' Trans- portation Expenses," and read that too, will you not, Mr. Worth- ington? Mr. Worthington : Take the Baltimore & Ohio, again, under "Transportation Expenses." Engineers' wages represented for the calendar year 1911, 11.91 per cent. ; under the proposed scale asked for by the engineers, it would become 14.88 per cent. Those figures mean the same all the way down the line. Mr. Judson : Pass to the point Detroit, Toledo & Ironton and explain that. Mr. Worthington: The reason why the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton shows up so badly with reference to net operating rev- enue is that it had scarcely any net operating revenue last year. In other words, it barely paid its operating expenses. This year it will not quite pay its operating expenses, that is, this last year; and that is the reason why the line is so marked in that instance. Mr. Judson : Explain those figures 216.15. Mr. Worthington : Under the proposed scale the percentage of the enginemen's wages to the net operating revenue aggre- gated 216.15 per cent. ; under the proposed scale it would be- come 294.6. 517 Mr. Judson : You mean it would be three times ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir; three times the amount of the- net operating revenue. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Worthington, do you believe that the engineers on the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton should bear the disa- bilities of the financial management or mismanagement of that road, if it happens there has been any such in past years! Mr. "Worthington : I think the best answer to that would be to take the fixed charges on that road and determine whether they are too high, or not. I had to analyze the operations of that road about four months ago for some New York bankers -and I did not find that the fixed charges were excessive. The trouble with the railroad, gentlemen, is, that its earnings are very small; it earns only about $5,000 per mile gross. Its up- keep now, is extremely low ; its operating expenses are skinned' down to the lowest point at the present time. I would not think that that railroad shows an excessive fixed charge. Mr. Morrissey: Presuming that the Detroit, Toledo & Iron- ton now gets its labor cheaper than other roads in that territory, why should it not get its material and other service cheaper, or- in a word, should labor contribute all to the financial disabilities of a railway? Mr. Worthington: Labor does not contribute all. , Capital gets nothing out of the D. T. & I. Capital gets no return. Now, should we make the burden still heavier? It is not paving its operating expenses at the present time and it is paying a fair going rate for the kind of service which it has. Mr. Shaw : I would like to ask a practical question, because, of course, those questions are theoretical questions and do not apply to any of these matters; but, the practical question I would like to ask is, what are the relations of this railroad with its locomotive engineers and its other classes of employees ? As it deals with them in the labor market and employs them, are its relationships with them strained, or are they agreeable! Mr. Worthington : I understand they are quite agreeable. I can only speak from my personal knowledge. When I went over the road I met Mr. Lowell, the receiver, and he told me that his labor conditions were quite peaceful and satisfactory. I know that is the case on the Wheeling & Lake Erie, because only a few months before this concerted movement my engineers came to 518 me and I went over the schedule with them and granted them five cents increase in through freight, where I was a little low in comparison with the other lines. They went home. I did not hear anything more from them. And, finally, when the concerted movement was started, one day my chief clerk came in with the Jiew schedule and said that the chairman of the committee, Mr. Brown, had left it with him. He asked Mr. Brown if Mr. Brown wanted to see me and Mr. Brown said "no, he did not wish to .see me. He just called to leave this schedule. ' ' And, I felt rea- sonably sure that my men were entirely satisfied with the exist- ing conditions. Mr. Shaw: If, however, the situation of this particular road about which Mr. Morrissey is asking the questions became still worse, financially, and it were foreclosed — I do not know its financial condition at all, from any outside knowledge — it could not, of course, make its increasingly bad financial condition an excuse or a reason for skinning down wages ; that would be put- ling the matter in the reverse form. Mr. Worthington : Surely not. I would not think so, either. The fact is that the D. T. & I. is paying the wage scale of the weaker class of roads ; it is to-day. Mr. Morrissey: Is it not a fact that the D. T. & I. pays standard rates to its conductors, trainmen and yardmen in the entire territory? Mr. Worthington : Obtained in the same way that it was ob- tained on the other roads. Now, it was not a concerted movement when the standardization of trainmen's schedules was affected. It grew out of the arbitration of the New York Central and after it was obtained from the New York Central, then the local com- mittee went around to the various roads and lifted them up to that scale. That is the way it was done; it was not a concerted movement the same as this is. Mr. Morrissey: What difference does it make as to the method, as long as the result is reached? Mr. Worthington: The only difference I can see, Mr. Mor- rissey, is, that in my opinion, it was not right or proper at that time, for the reason that it places all of these roads on an equal- ity, regardless of their earning capacity, — regardless of the op- erating conditions. It even paid men on short branch lines, the main line rate and boosted their wages up above the wages of 519 the engineer; in many cases increasing their wages abnormally when prior to that, the men were paid by the trip rate and were satisfied. In fact, the runs on these shorter lines were bid in by the older men because they could be at home at night and they had little or no responsibility in shuttling back and forth on the short branch runs. I thought that was not right. Another thing, when you place a standard rate of pay on a mileage basis on a road that would have both hill and valley divisions, that, struck me as not being right. Heretofore, it has been the prac- tice to pay, especially in the western territory, a slightly higher rate for the hill division, in order to compensate men for the shorter length of run, because they could not make the time. Now, if you pay a uniform mileage rate over the entire line, . you reverse the order of things and pay the higher rate to the longer division, on the more level territory. It seems to me that is an argument against standardization. The Chairman : Mr. Worthington, what effect, if any, has the fact, — which I assume is a fact, — that there is a difference between these public service corporations, say the railroads and private commercial bodies — take for instance a railroad, — if it does not pay, — if it is losing money year by year, — it still con- tinues to run? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. The Chairman: You take a large manufacturing plant; if it loses money year by year it will be shut down. Is that not so ? Mr. Worthington: Exactly. The Chairman: Doesn't that difference have some effect upon the whole economic relation? Mr. Worthington: Unquestionably, it has. There is of course a difference between a quasi public institution and a pri- vate corporation. Yet, after all, when you come to the last analysis, the public pays the bills of the quasi public institution, but we must consider, in making a wage scale for such corpora- tions, the point when we have arrived at a period when the men are receiving enough compensation for their services as it would seem to be unfair to impose a burden upon the public that would be excessive and the 52 railroads east of Chicago feel that their engineers are, to-day, receiving full and liberal compensation. The variations which you note in the various schedules are in- cident to the difference in local conditions, largely. In some 520 places, inconsistencies can be pointed out, but in those cases many times they are the result of some other concession on that road which was granted instead of this particular one and when ;you come to balance the whole situation, you will find that those schedules have been agreed to between the men and the com- panies and that they were measurably satisfactory at the time they were made. We feel that the men are getting all that the railroads can afford to pay them under present conditions and this seems to be very important at the present time, for the reason that if any increases are granted, it will be difficult to escape granting proportionate increases to other classes of ser- vice that are not as well paid as the engineers. Mr. Judson : Take the case of the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton Road that you have been speaking of, you would not contend, would you, that the financial embarrassments of that road should be a reason for paying its employees less than a reasonable com- pensation? Mr. Worthington : Not for one moment. Mr. Judson: Or, any less than public safety required? Mr. Worthington: Certainly, not. Mr. Judson : If the paying of such wages resulted in finan- cial disaster, that would be the misfortune of the enterprise? Mr. Worthington: Surely. There isn't any question about that, Mr. Judson. The railroad should not exist if it was not able to pay the going rate of wages for railroads in its class. That would seem to be proper. Exhibit No. 68 shows the ratio of taxes to net operating revenues for the fiscal years 1900 to 1911. The Chairman: What exhibit is that? Mr. Worthington: 68. It shows the ratio of taxes to net operating revenue for the fiscal years 1900 to 1911. The spe- cial point of that exhibit, you will notice in the last line, "Total, excluding Switching and Terminal Companies," which shows that the ratio of taxes to net operating revenue in 1900 was 8.6 per cent., while in 1911 it was 12.6 per cent. Mr. Judson : I see in one case there, that of the Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling, according to this table, in 1905,— they paid 316 per cent. Can that be accurate? Mr. Worthington : Yes ; for the reason that it is another road 521 that likens itself in a way to the Coal & Coke. Its net operating revenue was probably very much less than its taxes. The point of that is to show an increase of about fifty per cent, and that is one of the things, gentlemen, that the railroads have had to take care of, through this increased train load and increased operating efficiency. No. 69. Mr. Van Hise : This total, including switching and terminal companies at the end, those are averages? Mr. Worthington : I shall have to ask Mr. Parmalee. Did you prepare that table, Mr. Parmalee ? Mr. Parmalee : Yes, sir. Mr. Worthington : Will you kindly answer that question of Dr. Van Hise? I am not sure; in the last column, where you state these averages, are those the averages of these averages, or are they averages from the totals? Mr. Parmalee : The averages from the totals. Mr. Van Hise : The total operating expenses ? Mr. Parmalee : Yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: Of each road, separately? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Exhibit No. 69 Mr. Eidlitz : Just pardon me one minute, Mr. Worthington. I do not quite understand these two final totals ; total, including switching and terminal companies and total, excluding switching and terminal companies. Are they both identical ? Mr. Worthington : They are, in most cases. Mr. Shaw: No variation except the third column from the last, in the year 1909, a va'riation of .1 of one per cent. Mr. Worthington: If you should go into greater decimal figures, you probably would find some greater variation,but there is not for one decimal. Exhibit No. 69 shows the estimated annual cost to comply with the following full crew laws : Pennsylvania Freight and Passenger Full Crew Law, effec- tive July 18, 1911. Ohio Passenger Full Crew Law, effective July 15, 1911. Indiana Freight and Passenger Full Crew Law, effective April 10, 1907. The Chairman: Mr. Worthington, may I just ask you to briefly state what is the full crew law? Mr. Worthington: The note underneath the table explains Mr. Straus. The Chairman : I beg your pardon ; I see it does. Mr. Worthington : The position of the railroads is that this extra man on these crews is absolutely unnecessary. He does not perform any service. However, we must meet the situation and the law requires us to have him there and we must have him there and there is, in round numbers, three million dollars per year. Mr. Judson : Ho these statutes apply to interstate trains as well as state trains? Mr. Worthington : I am not sure. Mr. Duncan: While not applying to interstate trains, the practical effect is to require them in interstate business. Mr. Judson : You cannot provide these full crews on intra- state trains without having them also on interstate trains? Mr. Duncan: Practically, that is so. There probably are some instances where it is not. Mr. Morrissey: Is it not a fact they apply to all trains, so long as there is no interstate legislation on the subject? Mr. Duncan : Yes, sir. Mr. Worthington: What is the practice, Mr. Stuart! Mr. Stuart : You are right about that. Passenger trains as well. A passenger train leaving New York has less brakemen than it has when passing through Indiana — the same train. An extra brakeman is put on at the state line and taken off at the other end of the state line. Mr. Judson : Then, it does not apply in practice to interstate trains Mr. Butterfield: Yes, the interstate train when it passes through a state where the law is in effect, must comply with the law. Mr. Judson: I see; it must comply with the law. Mr. Stuart: I gave you that illustration as a purely inter- state train. Mr. Judson : I see. Mr. Morrissey: Aside from the merits of this so-called full crew law, what is the situation that prompts the employes to go to the legislature for the enactment of such laws. Mr. Worthington : I would not know any reason, unless they want to make more jobs for men, because the trains are fairly well taken care of under the present practice. You see, that, really, is a function of management. The railroads are respon- sible for the safe operation of their trains and they should have, and do have, sufficient men on those trains to take care of them. If they do not have sufficient men, they naturally suffer in the operation of their train service and it seems to me it is a func- tion of management that ought properly to be left to the man- agers of the railroads. Mr. Morrissey. Well, are not the difficulties of the train crew in operating these long tonnage trains, more than any de- sire to add additional men to their class? Mr. Worthington : Does it not apply to passenger service ? This table refers only to Pennsylvania Freight and Passenger Full Crew Law, Ohio Passenger Full Crew Law and Indiana Freight and Passenger Full Crew Law. It applies to both classes of service. Mr. Morrissey: You make reference to a bill now before the Massachusetts Legislature and estimate the cost of such leg- islation as $250,000, on two railroads. I suppose when that was made up, the bill had not then been vetoed by the Governor? Mr. Worthington: That data was furnished by the Boston & Maine. Is there anybody here that can speak for that, do you know, Mr. Quick? Mr. Quick: Yes, that information came in — you see, this in- formation has been under preparation from about the first of March and tnis was some of the first information that was re- ceived and if that bill was vetoed by the Governor after March, of course, we did not know anything about it. Mr. Worthington: It would reduce the amonut just that much. Gentlemen,, it was not with reference to the specific amount that is mentioned in this exhibit that it was placed be- fore you; it is simply to show you the trend of the times and the increases in operating expenses that the railroad managers have to meet from various causes. Now, this full crew bill has been spreading. That is evidenced by the fact that it has re- 524 cently been vetoed in Massachusetts and it is believed one of the conditions of service that we have been compelled to meet and has had more or less bearing on the increase in the operat- ing expenses of the railroad. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Horn, of the New Haven Railroad, ad- vises me that the Massachusetts bill before the Legislature re- ferred to in this exhibit was vetoed as you say, but the matter was referred to the Public Service Commission with instructions to make recommendations and Mr. Horn is expecting to have a conference with the Public Service Commission after this hear- ing for the purpose of going over the situation with the Public Service Commission. It is doubtful, as to what will be the out- come in Massachusetts. Mr. Morrissey: The Public Service Commission has always had jurisdiction over that question and has passed on it in years gone by? Mr. Duncan: Yes, that is right. Mr. Judson : But, it would follow, that that addition at the bottom is inaccurate. Mr. Duncan: It may. or may not be inaccurate, depending- upon the action of the Public Service Commission. Mr. Worthington : I would see no objection to correcting the table, however, and eliminating those two figures, because, we do not wish to present anything to the Board that is not based on exact facts. The Chairman : I think we understand the purpose and bearing of this exhibit. Mr. Shaw : It is merely an estimate of what it would cost to comply with a law that was pending in case the law went into effect and I think it is perfectly clear. Mr. Worthington : Exactly, and it would be immaterial whether this amount is $2,253,000 or merely $2,000,000. Exhibit No. 70 is an estimate of cost to the railways, to com- ply with the present legislative requirements as to safety appli- ances on locomotives and cars. The railroads do not take ex- ception to the safety appliances, as provided for by Congress. The exhibit is made solely for the purpose of advising the Board that there will be an approximate expenditure of some thing over nineteen million dollars during the years 1912, to 1916, inclusive, on this account, which naturally goes into the expenses of the railroads. Mr. Duncan: Why do you limit it to 1916? Is that the time in which the Commerce Commission has required the railroads to equip themselves with safety appliances? Mr. Worthington : Yes, the railroads have given this period in which to apply all of these safety appliances to cars and en- gines. Mr. Morrissey : I notice that those figurese are uniform f or the different years. Does that mean that the compliance with the requirements of the Commission means that much money,. or does it mean the cost of the new cars that will be built in the different years ? Mr. Worthington: No, that means only applicable to the safety appliances on the cars and engines and the reason why it was split up in uniform amounts was simply, as a matter of con- venience. The total cost is the total cost that will have to be spread out over that period and it seemed to be proper to spread it out uniformly. The railroads might do $251,000, for instance on the Baltimore & Ohio, each year, but at the end of this period they will have expended $1,255,864, in order to comply with the law. Mr. Judson: Those appliances have to be kept in order, too, I take it. Mr. Worthington : Surely, after we get them on. Mr. Judson : As part of your equipment ? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Willard: I think it might be illuminating to say just here that those expenditures referred to under the general head- ing are not only for the application of new safety appliances which have not been furnished before, under orders of the Com- mission, but a large portion of the expense is for changing standards that have been approved at one time to a standard that has been changed by some other public body at another time. Mr. Worthington: Exactly. Mr. Willard : It will cost briefly the railroads, or one partic- ular railroad, the sum mentioned to put on some new appli- ances and to change other appliances, previously put on. Of 526 course, we do not object to it, at all; it is simply the question that it costs money. Mr. Shaw: Does this relate wholly to Federal requirements? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Shaw: Or, does it relate to some special peculiar re- quirement of different states? Mr. Worthington : I think not. Mr. Judson: Does it include the automatic brake? Mr. Worthington : That is in general use, now. Mr. Judson: That has been in force? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir, about 99 per cent. Mr. Judson: Does this include the cost that you have been under heretofore? Mr. Worthington: No, this is something new. It changes the position of hand holds on cars and a lot of features of that kind and safety appliances on locomotives so engineers can get on and off. You know some railroads would have various safety devices to accomplish the same purpose, but they were not put on exactly as the Government requirements ask for. Mr. Judson: That expense for automatic brakes has been already covered? Mr. Worthington : Oh, yes. Mr. Judson: .Have you made up an}* table showing the probable cost to the railroads — the estimated cost — of the com- pensation bills that are now pending, or the bill that is now pending in Congress, applying to interstate railroads? Mr. Worthington : I have tried to get something under that heading, but the task was so difficult to apply it to the different roads that the figures were not very satisfactory, so I did not think they were in such shape that we cotild use them. Mr. Judson: Too much a matter of speculation? Mr. Worthington : Yes, too much a matter of speculation. Mr. Shaw : The Federal standards have now, virtually sup- erseded the activities of state legislatures in these matters as I understand it. Mr. Worthington: In some respects. Mr. Shaw: The necessity of interstate uniformity in so many things ? Mr. Worthington : Only in some respects. For instance, Full Crew Lairs are state laws. 02t Mr. Shaw : But, I was speaking with reference to this par- ticular matter. Mr. "Worthington: Oh, yes; with reference to that, that is right. Mr. Shaw: Of course, at one time we had a great variety of state laws with regard to all sorts of things having to do with those appliances. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Judson: In that connection, too, have not some states, enacted laws as to the physcal requirements of engineers? Mr. Worthington: I am not exactly clear as to that. I think that is true, but perhaps some other witness could answer that better than I could. Exhibit No. 71 shows the estimated cost to comply with the Federal Sixteen Hour Law, Telegraphers' Nine Hour Law, and Boiler Inspection Law, from date, effective, to June 1st, 1912; also, the estimated cost to comply fully with legislation, already enacted requiring improved ash pans and electric headlights. That is presented solely, as a matter of information so that the Board could see what those expenditures amounted to, up to the date mentioned. As will be noted, it is nearly $12,000,000. Exhibit 72, 1 will not bother going into, for the reason that it. simply shows what the estimated request is and the present prac- tice on the various roads. That applies to Exhibits 73, 74, 75 and 76 — in fact, down to 94. I am not going to bother you much with the exhibits from 94 to 105, as 94 gives you the conditions of service on the various railroads in the southeastern district, showing the rates of pay and the overtime rules, remarks, and so forth. Mr. Duncan: That is Exhibits Nos. 94 to 104 inclusive! Mr. Worthington: 94 to 104 inclusive. Mr. Duncan: Belating to the Southeastern territory? Mr. Worthington: Relating to the Southeastern territory comprising 18 roads. I will briefly epitomize the points which I make. In the first place, I might state that I understood Mr. Stone to say that they had a standardization of rates in the Southeastern territory and in the Western territory. Exhibit No. 94. You probably will not care to refer to this, as you may want to look it over later, because it involves con- 528 elusions that I have drawn from an examination of the schedules. Exhibit No. 94, comprising 18 roads Mr. Judson: Exhibit 94? Mr. Worthington: Yes, comprising 18 roads. Passenger service. 8 pay $4.40 and $4.25; cylinder division varying from 18 inches to 22 inches. 5 pay $4.25 to all engines. 1 pays $4.40 and $3.90; cylinder division 22 inches. 1 pays $4.40 to all engines. 1 pays $4.20. 1 pays $3.95. 1 pays $4.40 and $4.15; cvlinder division 22 inches. Total 18 roads. Overtime : 9 pay 60 cents per hour. 3 pay 65 cents. 2 pay 50 cents. 1 pays 75 cents. 1 pays 70 cents. 1 pavs 55 cents. 1 pays 40 cents. Total 18 roads. Mr. Stone: Mav I ask one question there? Why is the Houston & Texas Central listed in this group of roads? What business has it'eot in groups 4 and 5? Mr. Worthington: We endeavored to t>ick out all of the roads in what we understood to be the Southeastern territory. Mr. Stone : Well. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that Mr. Worth- ineton is familiar with the Houston Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that the question went out to all railroads to furnish the wages of any engineer who had earned over $200 per month in the last five years ? Mr. Worthington: No, sir; because you will notice quite a number of them do not reach $200. No ; I submitted the ques- tion myself, and the question simply was asked as to what the ten highest engineers in different classes of service received, my notion being solely for the purpose, as I stated, of a reflex of what it was possible for the men to earn during the busy periods under the existing schedule. Mr. Morrissey: But, would it be of any particular value, say, for example, in slow freight, unless it was paralleled with an exhibit showing the number of hours that the engineer worked, in order to accomplish that result in money. Mr. Worthington : No, but then, of course, you must remem- ber that we complied' with the' law and the engineer had his full 590 rest and it was possible for him to earn this money and get his required rest. Mr. Stone: Is it possible for any engineer to keep up for -amy -length of time, the practice of working 16 hours a day in heavy freight service? Mr. Worthington : I do not think they are ever required to do that, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : Tn Exhibit 17, in these hours on duty, you take no notice of the hours spent in preparatory work? Mr. Worthington : Yes, where the schedule provides for it. For example, you will notice column 3 shows the total hours on rail. Now, take the separation between the total hours on rail, in column 3, and the total hours on duty in column 5, the differ- ence in those two figures takes care of the point that you speak of. Mr. Stone : Then, do I understand that you claim that the figures shown in column 4 -and column 6, the average hours on duty, provide for all the preparatory time that the men are re- quired to give? Mr. Worthington : When preparatory time is provided for in the existing schedules, yes; not so, when it is not, because they have taken the time for which they pay the engineer. Mr. Stone : But., is it not a fact that all these men in through passenger service do not work by the hour, but, by the m'fo instead ? Mr. Worthington : Yes, that is why it made it very difficult, Mr. Stone, to show how high the compensation of these men in passenger service was, and the special object of this table was to give the information to the Board showing the actual hours that the men worked, with the very high compensation per hour which they received. Mr. Stone : Do you know of any other cases in railroad ser- vice which gives from three to five hours in preparatory work getting ready to do a good day's work? Mr. Worthington: No, I do not; I do not know that engi- neers do it, either; they certainly never did it on any road I have ever been on, excepting years ago. But since we have instituted the system of inspection of locomotives and performing all of wont very slowly. Mr. Stone : Do all freight trains continue in motion nil the time? Mr. Worthington: No, but When a man is tied up for any such period as that, he is permitted to either go to sleep on his engine, or to go to an available place of rest, if one is available, and get a bed to sleep in. That is the rule of all railroads. There is no railroad manager who would keep any man on a locomotive for any such period, expecting continuous service from him. That would be a very unreasonable thing. Mr. Stone: The fact remains that these men have actually been on this long, does it not? Mr. Worthington: I question whether that has ever been done, excepting, perhaps, where they might be tied up in a snow and, in that case, they are permitted to rest and, as you will notice by the table which we submitted regarding the six- teen hour law, the number of trains that exceeded the sixteen hours were only .15 of one per cent. ; but, if you have any spe- cific instance where men have been treated in that manner, unci will submit them, we will be very glad to look into them and give the data from the railroad's standpoint. Mr. Stone: I imagine, Mr. Chairman, that this data is on file, because the Commission reports are made up from state- ments furnished by the railroads themselves and sworn to. Mr. "Worthington : Do you know, then, Mr. Stone, what hap- pened in any one of these cases 1 Mr. Stone: I do not. Mr. Worthington : I think you will find none of them were ever expected to work fifty hours of continuous service. Mr. Stone : The only reason I brought the question up was, that you explained that the man was asleep on his engine. Mr. Worthington: The only reason I suggested that was that there are times when a man will get tied up, when there is no available hotel or place to rest, he could get a bed and in that case he is permitted to sleep on his engine. You un- derstand I did not mean to cast any reflection on the locomotive engineer for sleeping on his engine; that is not what I meant at all, because I do not know at all that they do it. 595 Mr. Stone: You would not recommend the seat box on one of those Mikado engines as a comfortable bed, as a steady diet, would you? (No response.) Mr. Stone : In your Exhibit 23, Why do you lay special stress upon the engines weighing over 200,000 pounds on drivers and claim that no other should be considered! Mr. Worthington: Because one of the claims, as I under- stand it, which you made, was based on the increased size of locomotives. Engines of 200,000 pounds on drivers have been used for seven or eight years, up to that weight on drivers and within the last four or five years quite a number of roads have purchased — as shown by these exhibits — engines, Consolidation engines, weighing more than 200,000 pounds on drivers, and, it seems to me, that if you are going to consider the size of en- gines, you would only consider those of the heavier type intro- duced through modern practice. Mr. Stone :■ Is it not true that a number of these roads have bought new engines that weighed much less than that, but still were much larger than anything that they had had before that? Mr. Worthington: Yes, that is true. Some of them did, I lmow, but I thought, when you made your point of size of en- gines, that you referred to the heavier type of engines. Mr. Stone: You stated yesterday that the Mallet was the coming engine. Is it not a fact that more orders are being placed for the new type called Mikado than all others combined at the present time, for freight service? Mr. Worthington : At the present time, that is true. I have been holding off for over a year trying to make up my mind whether I will buy the Mikado, or the Mallet, and I haven't made up my mind yet, because I do not want to be "the caboose to the train," and I think some ingenious mechanic is going to overcome the objections that you raise to the Mallet and that it will be the coming? freight engine in through freight service. Mr. Stone: On Exhibit 26, "Average speed of trains" do you really believe the passenger service is slower now than it was three years ago? Mr. Worthington: Excepting in exceptional instances, the time cards show that. Of course, I might say this, Mr. Stone : To my mind, the difference is not enough to talk about, or to 596 place any stress upon, either way, either slower or faster. I do not make any point because, in some instances, it is less. The point I wish to make by this table is that it is practically the same. Mr. Stone : If I understood correctly the point was brought out yesterday that these fast freight trains was taken from the published time cards for that train instead of the actual speed of the train. Is that correct! Mr. Worthington: Yes, and that would seem to be proper, because we do not often exceed the time card speed; in fact, we are not permitted to. Mr. Stone: Well, do you often make the time card speed with fast freight trains'? Mr. Worthington: No, we do not. Mr. Stone: Then the figures are misleading! Mr. Worthington: I would not think so, because they are on the side least favorable to us. If we give them higher than they really are they are against us, because one of your claims is for increased wages on account of higher speeds. Mr. Stone: Not on freight trains. Mr. Worthington: Well, we understood it so, so we fur- nished that data. We could take that out, though, if you do not want it. Mr. Stone: In Exhibit 27, you call particular attention to this and I only refer to it, Mr. Chairman, to correct a state- ment—it not only covers the United States, but it covers Mexico and Canada as well. They also, pointed to the fact that the number of deaths per thousand was decreasing regardless of the increased dan- ger of the trains. I would like to ask Mr. Worthington why they placed all these safety appliances if not to safeguard human life. Mr. Worthington: We do it for that purpose. Our peti- tion is that the risk is decreasing and that there is no addi- tional hazard to the locomotive engineer, as shown by their own figures in their own insurance company. Mr. Stone : Do these figures show those who died from in- juries or who were totally disabled? Mr. Worthington : It shows only what it states, the number of engineers killed. 597 Mr. Stone: In the figure in Exhibit 28, do 1 understand that the age of every man shown here is in actual service? Mr. Worthington : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Or, is his name simply carried on the roster? Is he really in service? Mr. Worthington : In active service. That is my under- standing of the table. We can check that up for you if you wish and you can verify it. Mr. Stone: In Exhibit 29, "years of service" does this show the actual time from the time the engineer enters service as an engineer, or -does it show from the time he passes examinations as an engineer. Mr. Worthington : From the time he commenced service as a locomotive engineer. Mr. Stone : In actual service ? Mr. Worthington: Yes, sir. It is only fair to state too, in reference to that table, that it shows the length of service as engineers of the locomotive engineers on the railways where now employed. Some of these men have had service on other roads. Mr. Stone: That would have what effect? Mr. Worthington: It would increase the length of service* of a man;. For example, suppose one man worked five years on one road and worked 15 years on this road, that would make 20 years of active service. Mr. Stone : Do you think that number is enough to change the percentage? Mr. Worthington : I do not place any stress on that because, really, I do not ; but it does include such engineers. Mr. Stone : In Exhibit 46, showing the proportion of rates paid, does this table show where any change has been made in tbe hours? Mr. Worthington: In the working conditions? Mr. Stone : Take, for instance, the Detroit, Toledo & Iron- ton, where you show the conductors' rate in 1905 and then, again, in 1908. Is there any data anywhere to show that those hours of service have been cut from 10 to 12 in that time for a day's work. Mr. Worthington: No; but would not it apply to both classes of service? Mr. Stone: If they both started tit the same time, it would. Mr. Worthington : No ; there is nothing in here. You know the special point of this table was simply to show. the relation of the conductors', trainmen's and firemen's rates to the engi- neers ' rate, for the years 1901, 1905 and 1911, to show that there was no marked change in the differentia] as between the con- ductors and engineers. Mr. Duncan: To show the rates of pay ? Mr. Worthington : Yes. Mr. Duncan: Not necessarily the compensation f Mr. Worthington : It shows only, the rates of pay and does not cover anything outside of that. Mr. Morrissey : As a matter of fact, has it ever been argued by the conductors or trainmen or by the companies in opposing them, that there was any relation between the rates of the con- ductors and brakemen; to that of engineers! Mr. Worthington: I never heard that question raised until It was raised this time by the engineers. As I understood, call- ing attention to the fact that there was a slight closing up of the differential at the last wage adjustment. That is the first time I have ever heard it raised, excepting to this extent: I have heard the firemen come in; at different times and endeavor to bring up about a 50 per cent, differential. That is to say, asking for 60 per cent, of the engineers' wages. They usually tried to g(-;t that. And, if you will look at this table you will notice, that the firemen in the last column exceed the 60 per cent, in soidp instances and in some instances, below it. Mr. Morrissey : Is it not reasonable, that the wages of fire- men shonld bear a relation to those of engineer and that the wages of brakemen should bear a relation to those of conduc- tor, but the wages of brakemen and conductors need not neces- sarily bear any relation to the wages of engineers and firemen? Mr. Worthington : That is my honest belief, and that is why I was quite surprised when the engineers raised the question here. Mr. Stone: Did they raise it in just that way, Mr. Worth- ington ? Mr. Worthington: L so understood. Perhaps, misunder- stood it. 599 Mr. Stone : Did not they ' make the claim that the engi- neers had not been increased proportionately, with other classes of service ; in other words, I think the stenographic notes bear out the assertion that we claimed the conductors have received from 18 to 39 per cent, and we got an. increase of 10, in the last increase of wages. Mr. Worthington: If you will notice our statements witlr reference to the conductors' increase of wages, the percentages- were nothing like you state and neither were the percentages any- thing like you state, with reference to the engineers' increase. We have got two tables here that give the exact figures. Mr. Stone : Yes, we can get Mr. Quick on the stand and we can go into those things. In Exhibit No. 50, statement of wages and expenses, you\ make the statement there was 87 per cent, more employees and only 45 per cent, more train miles. Mr. "Worthington: Yes, sir. The number it shown, Mr. Stone. In 1900, you will notice, the number of employees on the New York Central was 32,544, and in 1911, 60,912. I guess that will figure 87 per cent. Now, the train miles, in 1900 Mr. Judson : What road are you speaking of? Mr. Worthington : The New York Central. The train miles, in 1900, were 33,429,802, and in 1911, 48,689,945, or 45.66 per cent. That is a mere matter of computation. Mr. Stone: These employees shown here, are they the men engaged in transportation service, or all other employees in the service of the company? Mr. Worthington : That is all other employees in the ser- vice of the company. Mr. Stone : That includes track men and everybody else ? Mr. Worthington : It includes everybody. The special point of this exhibit, gentlemen, is to show that the wages have gone up in very much greater ratio than other expenses incident to railroad operation, and in very much greater ratio than the train miles, which is the work that is performed by the men in train service. Mr. Morrissey : Have they increased in the same proportion as gross earnings in the last ten years? Mr. Worthington : I have not looked into that. I would an- 600 swer offhand that I think it is greater, but I have not any figures on that. Let me see if we have not something here which will give us that. I think we have, I am not sure about that, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Morrissey: I did not see anything there in regard to it. Mr. Worthington: I would not regard, gross earnings, though as a measure for comparison of employees in a particu- lar line of service. Mr. Stone : Is it not. a fact that the Interstate Commerce Commission reports show less engineers employed now, than three years ago? Mr. Worthington : Well, if that is true and the aggregate payroll is greater, it would mean that the few that are remain- ing in service must be getting considerable more money. Mr. Stone: Well, is the aggregate pay roll of the engineers greater ? Mr. Worthington: I think it is. Mr. Stone : How about the 12% per cent, increase in freight tonnage in that time! That means a smaller number of engines handled. Mr. Worthington : At the present time, I am speculating, gentlemen; I have not the figures in mind. My honest judg- ment is that it is. Mr. Stone : You stated yesterday, I think, in connection with Exhibit No. 60, that it was unfair to judge all these roads, or to use your expression, I believe, to measure them all by the same yardstick. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Stone: Don't they get the same pay for freight and passenger traffic of the same classes of freight and passengers? Mr. Worthington: Well, the answer to that is they do not handle the same classes. There is a marked difference in the character of ■ the tonnage handled by the different roads ; and, this statement was made, Mr. Stone, as a reflex, to indicate, for the information of the Board, the very marked difference in the traffic conditions on these railroads. That was the particular point, of this graphic chart. Mr. Stone: With but three or four exceptions, do not all these roads pay the same rate to conductors and train men? 601 Mr. Worthington : Yes, growing out of the conditions which I have several times explained, which do not appeal to me as any reason why we should adopt a standard scale for the engi- neers. Mr. Stone: I believe you stated in your opening address that you were compelled to make these increases. Mr. Worthington: I was, in a measure. My trainmen had called upon me and I was explaining to them why we could not afford to make any increases and we finally compromised with the understanding that we would be guided by the judgment of the Arbitration Board in the New York Central case. There- fore, when that decision was granted, I could do nothing else than keep my word. But, I did not think it was right. Many other roads were in the same situation, and this explains your inquiry of a few minutes ago, when you asked me if some of these roads had not made their schedules retroactive, and that the adjustment with the engineers had meanwhile come in. I think Mr. Stone is quite right in that, probably, several of these schedules were made retroactive under an understanding with their trainmen that when the decision was rendered in the New York Central Arbitration case, we would be governed by it. Mr. Stone: What condition existed then, that does not ex- ist now? Why was it compelled then, and would not be com- pelled to do the same thing now ? Mr. Worthington: Well, I might answer that in this way. "We have a case on appeal to an arbitration board. When that decision is rendered, if concessions are made to the engineers, it will be very difficult to convince the conductors and firemen and trainmen and the other classes of employes that they are not, also, entitled to an increase. Mr. Stone: The point I was trying to bring out was why you were afraid two years ago — I do not mean to use that in an offensive sense — but, compelled to do a certain thing two years ago and would not be compelled to do the same thing now. Is there a different labor condition? Mr. Worthington : No. After I had stated to my men that I would be governed by the decision of the Arbitrators, in the New York Central case, I naturally felt compelled, on my honor, to carry out the arrangement, and, if I did not, I would expect trouble with mv men. 602 Mr. Stone: In other words, it was done to avoid a crisis? Mr. Worthington : Well, I would not put it exactly that way r because there was no threatened crisis, at that time. Mr. Duncan: You are speaking for your own railroad! Mr. Worthington: Yes, speaking of the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad. Mr. Morrissey: How did the application of the New York Central award affect the wages of conductors and trainmen on your road? Mr. Worthington: I think one of our exhibits shows the in- crease. Mr. Eidlitz : We have had that four or five times, Mr. Mor- rissey. The witness has stated it on direct three times, and now, on cross-examinaiton. Mr. Morrissey: Well, I have asked a question here that I think has some bearing upon the matter, at least for my own information. I haven't heard it answered at any time during' this session, nor do I think it is in the exhibits. I do not think it is anywhere in the data furnished. The point I raised was to determine the effect of the application of the New York Cen- tral award to the Wheeling & Lake Erie Railroad, to decide whether or not the increase was great or small, or but an average increase. Mr. Worthington : I will have to have that looked up to find out what it was. I .thought I had it here. Mr. Morrissey wants to know what it aggregated and we will have to have it looked up. Mr. Morrissey : It may not be important except probably in its personal relation to myself, as one of the arbitrators. I think it can be shown that the application of the New York Central award to some of these roads worked a comparatively small increase. Mr. Worthington: I believe that is true with reference to: some of the roads, for the reason that quite a number of them were paying a pretty high scale. On the Wheeling & Lake Erie, however, gentlemen, my increase, after my adjustment with the conductors and engineers, the last time — and the increases I made to other employes, did aggregate a very large amount. For the entire service it was $204,000, and as my net operating 603 revenue for that year was $2,056,000, it was approximately ten per cent, of my net operating revenue, so it was a very large amount, when applied to a railroad like the Wheeling & Lake Erie. That included the conductors, engineers and firemen and all other classes of service. In fact, the Wheeling & Lake Erie could not stand another increase of that kind. Mr. Stone: Is that the reason why the engineers are not paid standard wages on the Wheeling & Lake Erie? Mr. Worthington: I am not advancing that as a reason, Mr. Stone: I am trying to give a great many reasons as ap- plicable to all of the roads; not alone to the Wheeling & Lake Erie. Mr. Stone: The reason why I asked the question, you said the Wheeling & Lake Erie could not stand another increase like that. Mr. Worthington: Well, it is one of the many roads that could not stand an increase. Mr. Stone: In your Exhibit 63, you show average opera- tions and expenses, and call particular attention to the wide difference; you also call attention to — well, the figures showing the deficit— do you take the position that the wages of the en- gineers should be gauged by the earnings of the road? Mr. Worthington: No, my position with reference to that table is this, that it is a reflex of the earning capacity of the fifty-two railroads on a per mile of line basis, and indicates the difference in the traffic density and the earning power of these railroads and that even under the present rates of pay, those showing a deficit of net corporate income were not able to pay all of their operating expenses and fixed charges, under exist- ing conditions. Mr. Stone : Then, you would not make the claim that because a road shows a deficit that there should be a lower wage than the standard wage ! Mr. Worthineton : Well, now, when you talk about standard wage, that is another thins:. I would take the position that the railroad ought to Bay the going wages for roads in its class. Mr Stone : When you speak of its class, do you mean the same financial condition or the same competing territory? Mr. Worthington : No ; I mean taking into consideration all 604 the factors under which it is operated ; its earning capacity and the physical characteristics, the character of the traffic handled, etc. Mr. Stone : In establishing a wage scale, do you take into consideration local conditions on different divisions and make a wage for each division ? Mr. Worthington: Not wholly so, but the organizations themselves have, in a measure, recognized that principle. Mr. Stone: Is there any differential on different divisions on these roads in the eastern territory? Mr. Worthington : Not so much in the eastern territory, bull there is in the. western territory, because I made schedules of that kind myself on the Southern Pacific. Mr. Stone : Did you make the differential unless the grade was under two per cent.? Mr. Worthington: Yes; differential on the Tuscan Division for one per cent, grades and one and a half per cent., when I was superintendent. ' Mr. Stone : Very slight. Mr. Worthington: Oh, no; there was considerable of it, Take, for instance, the Benson grade going up out of Benson to Bailroad Pass — in fact, that whole Tuscan Division, because of this one per cent, grade and one and a half per cent, grades, ' paid the Hill differential. Mr. Stone : This morning you spoke of a clerk in a Fifth Avenue store getting twice as much wages as a clerk in a country store. What bearing has that on this case ? Mr. Worthington : It has this : Local conditions, as a factor affecting the wages of workmen, has always been recognized^ and those more favorably situated are located at congested centres, where population was dense, have always received "higher compensation than those in outlying districts. This prin- ciple being recognized in the employment of other kinds of em- ployment of labor, there would seem to be no good reason why it should not be recognized in railroad service the same as it ha* always been in the past. Mr. Stone : Do you not sell the same rate per passenger mile or the same freight rate per ton mile in the outlying districts that you do where it is congested around New York? 605 Mr. Worthington : No ; for the reason that you do not get- ithe same class of commodities. to handle. Mr. Stone : You lay special stress on the Coal & Coke Rail- way, quoted by you. Why do you bring it in so often as a poor, weak, defenseless road? Mr. Worthington: No special reason, excepting that it sa .happened by an examination of the profiles that the proposed standard wage scale would hit this road hardest. That is to say,. if you will look at the table you will notice the percentage of in- crease on the Coal & Coke is 56 per cent, and, as that was the} highest one, I naturally referred to that. If it had happened to any other road I would have used the other road. Mr. Stone: When they thought there was a storm coming they wanted to use your cyclone cellar, did they not! Mr. Worthington: Well, I would not think that they ought . to have feared it, because I thought they had an agreement with, your organization that was reached through arbitration. Mr. Stone: Then, why did they put themselves under your- protection? Mr. Worthington : I suppose they wanted the principle recog- •nied that there was no sound reason for standardization of rates of pay of enginemen. Mr. Duncan: The Coal & Coke was on Mr. Stone's list, was- • it not! Mr. Stone : Yes ; it was on the list I submitted. It is also,, a member of the Eastern Railway Association. Mr. Duncan: I meant by that, you had asked to have that come in, at any rate ? Mr. Stone: Sure; we wanted all of them. You spoke in ■ regard to your Exhibit 69 with reference to the Full Crew Law ? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is the engineers organization charged with the sins of commission for the Full Crew Law? Mr. Worthington : Certainly, not. That exhibit was not pre- sented with that thought in mind. It was only for the purpose of indicating that bills of this kind increase the operating ex- penses of a railroad and that, in the operation, of the railroad, 'they must take care of all of those operating expenses and, as they involve increases, it is necessary for the railroads througb 606 ^economies in operation to, in every way possible, take care of these obligations. And, it was simply presented as one of the things that the railroad managers have had to take care of in addition to the increases in wages. That was the only point of this table. Mr. Morrissey : How do you reckon the item of cost, in the first paragraph, under the 16 Hour Law? How did it cost the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad $161,020.04! Mr. Worthington : What table are your referring .to ? Mr. Morrissey: Table 71. Mr. Worthington : Oh, 71. Mr. Morrissey: I thought you were on that. Mr. Worthington: 69 is what Mr. Stone asked about. Mr. Stone: Full Crew Law. Mr. Worthington: We have the supporting data to give you the detail of that, if you like, and would be glad to furnish it. I cannot answer that offhand because I did not make the calcu- lation. Mr. Morrissey: We would be very glad to have it. Mr. Duncan : We will have that here for the use of the Com- jnission if you wish it. Do I understand you to want the support- ing data to 71! Mr. Morrissey: Yes, I would like to see how it operated and all the factors that are introduced in connection with it, at least, so far as it applies to the 16 Hour Law. I can understand how it would apply under the 9 Hour Law and under the Boiler In- . speetors. Mr. Duncan: We will try to have that here to-morrow for you. Mr. Stone : Speaking of a small line, Mr. Worthington, is it .not a fact that a number of these small lines are held and oper- ated at a loss to prevent invasion of territory by other com- peting lines! Mr. Worthington : I suppose that is true in the cases of some of the larger lines ; but, you must remember, there are a lot of us who have not any parent company to hang on to. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that a good share of these small lines that are running over on the debit side of the column have parent lines to hang on to! Mr. Worthington : I presume that is true. Yet, it is a pretty 607 poor investment if the branch line will not pay, per se; some- times, they will bring sufficient traffic to the main line, so the main line can afford to carry them, but a main line of railroad: that loads itself up with a lot of branch lines that do not pay,, per se, has got a pretty poor investment. Mr. Stone : Is it not true that they are largely held for the' stragetic position that they give? Mr. Worthington : ] would not think that that was general. I would not say that there are not such cases, but I would not think that that had. any general application to the smaller lines. Mr. Stone : Exhibit 70, you show the cost of applying thesa safety appliances? Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that these cars are equipped : with; these safety appliances now and you are simply making the changes to standardize, by orders of the Government? Mr. Worthington: In many cases, yes; but we must undergo the expense. Mr. Stone: That is true. Mr. Worthington : We only charge the expense of changes, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone: But it is largely brought about by the fact, is it not, that each railroad had a different standard and, finally, the Government compelled you to standardize them all? Mr. Worthington: Yes; but some of them are new, you know. In any event, we do not take exception to that; we think the safety appliances are all right and our only object in presenting this table is to show the additional expense we have been put to, and we must take care of it, and it represents, in the aggregate, a very large sum of money. Mr. Stone: But, is it fair to charge all of this and show it as cost of applying safety appliances? Mr. Worthington: I think it is and, if yon doubt the wis- dom of our doing this, we would be very giad in this case, to show you the supporting data ; it is quite voluminous, but we would be very glad to have you look it over. Mr. Stone : The point I was trying to bring out is the fact that a large share of these safety appliances required, the cars and engines are already equipped with them; it simply means changing, to conform to certain standards. 608 Mr. Worthington : But, it lias put us to that expense andi we have to charge it up in our operating expenses; We cannot do it for nothing. We thought that many of those changes were unnecessary, but we must conform with the law, and we> are doing it, all of which costs money, and we simply submit this statement showing what it amounts to, in the aggregate. Mr. Stone: Had the American Railway Association had; standard plans and conformed to them, they would not have to spend this unnecessary money now, would they? Mr. Worthington: Well, we could not anticipate the action of the government, in a matter of that kind, you know. Mr. Stone: What caused the government Mr. Willard : I would like to interject a question there. Is it not a fact, Mr. Worthington, that some of these standards that are being changed are being changed, from what was recom- mended as standard by the Master Car Builders' Association, and for a time, were accepted by the government and then, after- ward, changed to conform to some other standard"? Mr. Worthington: That is true. Mr. Willard: And the railroads have not wholly ignored the subject? Mr. Worthington: That is exactly true. Mr. Willard: What caused the government to make this -standardization? Mr. Worthington : Well, I never knew, but I thought it was the solicitation of the men. Mr. Stone: Why did the men solicit it? Mr. Worthington: With the idea, I suppose, of bringing, about some standard and after the standards are all adopted,. I suppose, it is a very good thing to do, to have them all alike on different roads. The only object, I say, in presenting the. statement, is to show that the railroads must expend this money for this purpose and it is a part of our expenses which we must meet and which has to be taken care of, in addition to the in- crease in wages. Mr. Stone : Is it not true that it was brought about by the trainmen's organization, largely, to prevent the constant crip- -pling and killing of trainmen? Mr. Worthington: No, I would not think that, Mr. Stone. 609 Have you any data to show that there has been any marked decreases in the number of trainmen killed, since the adoption ii these appliances? Mr. Stone : I have not any data, but I do know, Mr. Chair- man, that that was largely the factor in bringing it about, so that the cars in interstate traffic would all be equipped alike and a man would find a hand hold at a certain place and a side ladder at a certain place and a stirrup to step off the ground at a cer- tain height, and all that. Mr. Worthington: Well, whatever the reason is, we are not criticising it and are not finding any fault. The Chairman : I understand Mr. Worthington to say, they approve of all these safety appliances. Mr. Worthington : Surely. Mr. Stone: Exhibits 72 to 104, inclusive. You stated that lots of times these rules are put in, in order to settle with the men? Mr- Worthington: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: But, you do not recognize the justness of it — ■ is that correct ? Mr. Worthington: Many times, but many times we do; it depends, altogether, on the rule. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that the operating official is both judge and jury and the only appeal from his decision is by strike of the men? Mr. Worthington : Not always so, Mr. Stone. The operating official, as a rule, is anxious, if possible, to make an adjustment of his differences with his men. There is no arbitrary rule about it. I certainly have never adopted any arbitrary rule, and I have got along with my men pretty well. In the thirty- eight years I have been railroading 1 have never had a strike of any kind. Mr. Stone : But, suppose they do not agree with you, there is no appeal from it, is there, except by going to strike ? Mr. Worthington : Well, we never got that far and you and I never had any trouble; we have always managed to get to- gether. Mr. Stone: Well, we are leaving out the personal equation now; we are talking about fifty railroads. I simply desire to •emphasize the fact that the operating official in charge is really 610 judge and jury both, and the only appeal there is from him is to use the power of the organization, in a strike, as a last resort. Mr. Worthington: No — Mr. Judson: That is so, in every employment, is it not? Mr. Stone: He may get it into arbitration in some cases, like we have in this. We had the choice of going to strike, or to an arbitration, and we preferred this. Mr. Judson : Very much to your credit, too. Mr. Stone: You spoke of tb,e number of Mallet passenger engines in your Exhibit 105 and you spoke of the passenger rate on Mallets. Mr. Worthington: Yes. Mr. Stone: How many Mallets are there in passenger ser- vice in the West? Mr. Worthington: Well, I am not posted, because I have been away from the West a good while and I only know some of the roads that use them. I think the Santa Fe uses th£m, on their heavy grade lines in the West, and I know the Southern Pacific does. I am not sure whether the Great Northern does, or not. I could get you definite information on that, if it is important. Mr. Stone : The only Mallet passenger engines that I know of, that ever were built, were two built for the Sante Fe Com- pany and, I think, there is only one in service. If the Southern Pacific are using these on the Mountain Division, they are freight engines Mr. Worthington: No, they are built with a larger wheel, and built expressly for passenger service. I speak advisedly of the Southern Pacific, because I know. Mr. Willard: I want to say that I actually rode behind a Mallet passenger engine on the Southern Pacific, last winter. Mr. Worthington: They were built about two years ago. Mr. Stone: For passenger service 1 ? Mr. Worthington: Yes. I know, because my brother is Assistant Director of Maintenance and Operation and I know when they got out the plans for building those engines. I looked them over, in his office, and I know they were built at that time and built exclusively for passenger service. They have either a 63 or 69 inch wheel. 611 Mr. Stone : How about them being backed up, that engineer in that dangerous position? Why are these engines backed up? Mr. Worthington: Because, the engineer can see better and he is in a better position to look out for signals ahead, the same as on a multiple unit train. Mr. Stone: Is that the reason they were built that way? Mr. Worthington: Another reason is, of course, you could not have a tank, if you were burning coal, in the position it is in on those engines, but, in burning oil, the oil will feed back to the fire box of the locomotive and Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that it was done to keep from smothering the men, through those twenty or thirty mile snow sheds ? Mr. Worthington: No, it is not. I can say that, advisedly, because I used to work on that division myself, and I have rid- den Consolidation engines through those tunnels and have been on the middle engine when we ran four engines on a train and I have been on behind, many times and we never had any trouble getting through the tunnels. Mr. Morrissey: Do they burn oil there? Mr. Worthington: They do now, but they did not then.' They used to burn coal then. There was some annoyance from the smoke, it is true, but I do not know of a single case where an engineer was suffocated, during my experience there and I was there for several years. Mr. Stone : Don't you have constant complaint from the men of the fumes from the smoke and gas on those engines ? Mr. Worthington: Not constant complaint. I have heard complaints, yes — not constant complaint. They are burning oil there now, and thev do not have any of that trouble, anyway. Mr. Judson : Is there any difference in the compensation, where the engines are fed with oil? Mr. Worthington: I think not, for engineers, but I believe there is, for firemen. The engineer would have about the same duties, but the firemen has much lighter duties and, I believe, there is some slight difference in compensation paid firemen on oil burners. Mr. Stone : I do not think there is any difference, unless it has been made in the last few months; I had knowledge off it three months ago. 612 Mr. Worthington : You may be right. Mr. Stone : Isn't it a fact that, when they are headed through the other way that, in a little while, it gets so hot on those engines that the men's clothes catch on fire 1 ? Mr. "Worthington : I never heard of such a case. Mr. Stone : I can get you statement after statement of men who had to turn the hose on each other in going through those snow sheds. Mr. "Worthington : It is an unusual practice and I was there for a good many years and never heard of it. Mr. Stone : You spoke of passenger overtime in the West and called particular attention to the different roads. How much passenger overtime is paid in the West? Mr. Worthington: Why, I haven't any records to show that and I would not attempt to answer, without some specific infor- mation. I know that the rule reads pro rata. Mr. Stone: Mr. W. B. Scott, who was Chairman of the Con- ference Committee of Western Managers, for the 63 roads, stated that there was $17,000 worth of passenger overtime paid on all the roads, for the year 1910. That can easily be corrobo- rated by the men who were present. Mr. Worthington : Even it if was only $17,000, it was paid pro rata, wasn't it? Mr. Stone : Yes. A very small item for a large number of roads. The Chairman : Do you mean to say that the overtime cut a very small figure? Mr. Stone: In passenger service in the Western Territory. Mr. Worthington: And, if it was more in this territory, ought we pay a higher rate than pro rata? Mr. Stone: Pro rata of what? Mr. Worthington: Pro rata of the rate of pay, whatever it is. Mr. Stone: One-tenth the daily rate, or one-fifth the daily rate? Mr. Worthington: You understand the meaning of "pro rata, J; just as well as I do. The Chairman: You mean hourly rate? Mr. Worthington: Yes. 613 Mr. Stone: Our proposition would mean, pro rata after live hours. Yes, we think that is fair, pro rata after five hours.- Mr. Worthington: Well, you are raising a new issue, now, We had better give you seventy-five cents or one dollar. Mr. Stone : You stated that these men who were called long hours ahead, like Mr. Woods, were simply called for the con- venience of the men. Is it not a fact that the successful engi- neer has to put in a number of hours looking after his engine, iii order to keep from failure on the road and to make a success of his trip? Mr. Worthington : Personally, I thought it was a wise thing- for Mr. Woods to do that, because he wanted to assure himself that his engine was all right, but the company for which he- worked did not obligate him to do that and there are engineers who take their engines right from the dock, or, in other cases- when the hostler brings it down to the station, get on the engine there and they get over the road all right. Mr. Stone: Isn't there a quiet pressure upon the man that" he had better have things all right? Mr. Worthington: I never saw very much of this quiet pres- sure. Mr. Stone : It is not so quiet in some cases. Is it not true that there is constant pressure for the men to be successful 1 Mr. Worthington: I think that is so, with reference to the- officers. Most of us have to be on our jobs pretty much all the time. Mr. Stone : I would like for you to explain — you have used the term> two or three times— what do you call "feather beds?" Mr. Worthington: Well, when you strike something like- they have over on the New Haven, where they pay double time for overtime, miles or hours. Mr. Stone: You think that is a "feather bed"? Mr. Worthington: I certainly do and would hate to see it spread. Mr. Stone : I wish I could get some of the microbes and inoc- ulate a few others with it. You understand, of course, that has been in effect since 1886? Mr. Worthington: Yes, I do. I have often wondered how thley ever hypnotized the man who did it. Mr. Stone: Well, Mr. Chairman, so far as that is concerned, 614 we often wonder how they hypnotize them in a good many- things. We would also like to say that the conductors are get- ting it too. We do not have the only "feather bed," and they also got the increase in this eastern territory and still keep their "feather bed." I believe, Mr. Chairman, that is all the questions I care to ask Mr. Worthington. The Chairman: Mr. Worthington, have you anything fur- ther to say? Mr. Worthington : No, sir. The Chairman : Now, we have arrived at the hour for ad- journment, half past four. I merely wish to say, for the guid- ance of both sides, that as our Board of Arbitration consists of seven members, as you have constituted it, and as at the end of the week, that is, after Saturday, one or two of the Arbitrators, on account of engagements, are compelled to leave, I hope very much that the hiearings can be concluded, by that time. I do not say this with any desire of hurrying either side, but I merely wish to say what the result may be. When the Board separates, as it must temporarily, on Saturday afternoon next, it is difficult to say when we can get them all together again, for the purpose of arranging for hearings and, unless the hearings are ended at that time, it might postpone matters considerably. Maybe, this information is entirely unnecessary, but I thought it important to mention it. Mr. Stone : Before you adjourn, Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question? Can you give me any idea as to the number of witnesses the companies intend to put on ? Mr. Duncan : We have quite a number of witnesses, but, in view of what Mr. Straus has said and, inasmuch as a good many of them will merely corroborate someone else, we will try to pick out some of them who will go over a certain point and then indicate to the Board that we have other witnesses who could testify along the same lines, merely corroborative, and if the Board would like to examine them, that they are available. Mr. Stone : May I also ask, for information, will both sides have a certain limited time for the summing up of their case! The Chairman: Yes, certainly. Mr. Judson : If we shall have time. The Chairman : I think it would be very wise to do so. Mr. Duncan: We should also like to have an opportunity to file a brief. 615 Mr. Van Hise : That, it seems to me, is more important than summing up; that is, for each side to present just as elaborate brief as it cares to. Mr. Duncan : We may not have the brief prepared by Sat- urday. The Chairman : We do not expect that. Mr. Duncan : We would be prepared to briefly argue it, but not ready to follow it up with an exhaustive brief. The Chairman: You can take your time for that, and the other side, of course, will have just the same and it would be desirable for both sides to file a brief and carefully sum up' their points, because it will be of considerable help to the Board to have your briefs. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, there is one other thing I would like to suggest and, in doing so, please do not misunderstand me and gain the impression that I am trying to dictate to the Board, but, I think, before the Board adjourns they, at least should decide one thing, that is, the time within which we have to file this brief and, also, the time when the award, whatever it may be, will become effective. Mr. Judson: We cannot do that. The Chairman : We can readily tell you about the time you will have to file the briefs and, in giving you the time, we will consult your own convenience in the matter; we will give you the time you desire. As to the other point, why, we will have to hold that in res- ervation. Now, gentlemen, if it is agreeable, we will adjourn untir tomorrow, at ten o'clock. (Whereupon, at 4:30 P. M., an adjournment was taken to tomorrow, July 24, 1912, at 10:00 A. M.) G16 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 24, 1912. 10 :00 A. M. The Chairman: Under the terms of submission it was agreed that this Board should fix the date when such decision as it may arrive at shall go into effect, and yesterday Mr. Stone made the request whether the Board could state what the decision that will be arrived at by the Board will go into effect. I would state that the Board has considered that question ana that before we adjourn I expect to announce that fact, namely, when the decision which the Board will arrive at will apply; it being understood that that announcement, however, will not in- dicate in any way what will be the nature of the decision that the Board will find ; only fixing the' date when the decision will go into effect. Does that answer your request, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone: Yes. The Chairman : Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Bickford, will you take the stand? S. A. Bickford was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Duncan: What is your name? Mr. Bickford : S. A. Bickford. Mr. Duncan: Where do you live, Mr. Bickford? Mr. Bickford : Mt. Vernon, just outside of the city limits of New York City. Mr. Duncan: What is your occupation? Mr. Bickford: I am road foreman of electrical equipment on the New York Central. Mr. Duncan : How long have you been road foreman of elec- trical equipment for that company? Mr. Bickford: Something over three years, I don't know just exactly. Mr. Duncan: And over what territory does your jurisdic- tion extend? 617 Mr. Bickford: Their electric division. Mr. Duncan: And where is their electric division? Mr. Bickford: Radiating from Grand Central Terminal north on what was the old Harlem Division to North White Plains and on the Hudson Biver to Croton. Mr. Duncan: Were you ever in the steam service? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: In what capacity! Mr. Bickford : As a fireman and locomotive engineer. Mr. Duncan: How long has it been since you ceased to operate a steam locomotive? Mr. Bickford: About seven years and a half; since Febru- ary, 1905. Mr. Duncan: Now, your electric service includes both elec- tric locomotives and multiple unit? Mr. Bickford: It does. Mr. Duncan: And, I suppose you are familiar with the op- eration of both types of power as well as the locomotive engine itself? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Will you very briefly, Mr. Bickford, explain to the Board the duties of the operator of an electric locomo- tive, and the duties of an operator of the multiple unit power, for the purpose of comparing their duties with those of a steam engineer ? Mr. Bickford: By that I assume you mean commencing at their preparatory service through to the end of the trip? Mr. Duncan : And, do it very briefly, because a good deal of it has come out in the examination of the witnesses of the en- gineers. Mr. Bickford: An electric locomotive engineer is required to report, under the same rules that apply in steam road service, because that agreement was made effective when we commenced the electric operation, until such time as the company and the men should agree otherwise. When notified as to where they will get their train they are supposed to go through the train, cut in the main switch, the compressor switch and see that the control switch on the multiple unit car is in place. They go through the entire train, making an inspection of the panel board 618 on which all these switches and the fuses in the circuits are placed. After air pressure is pumped up on the rear end, they apply the brakes and then go to the head end of the train, see that the brakes release, and are then ready to move down to the starting signal. •Mr. Duncan : Mr. Bickford, we have been all over that with other witnesses, and I am wanting to shorten this up as much as I can, and what I want you to point out to the Board is this-: Just in a general way, the advantages, in your opinion, the electric service has over the steam service. Take, for instance, how does the preparatory training, incident to the operation of an electric locomotive or a multiple unit, compare with that of an engineer! Mr. Bickford: The technical training on the New York Central is a four days' schooling, as an average. "We pay our locomotive engineers four days for qualifying on the equipment. That includes both types of equipment. Mr. Duncan : Can a fireman learn as quickly as an engineer, assuming that he knows the signals on the road! Mr. Bickford: Yes, in so far as the electric locomotives are concerned, we qualify the firemen the same as we do the engineer, and the average there is about two days. Mr. Duncan: How does the amount of apparatus on the electric locomotive or the multiple unit compare with the ap- paratus on a steam locomotive? Mr. Bickford: There is much less for the locomotive engi- neer to look after. We maintain a corps of inspectors at all terminals, that go over the trains, inspect our locomotives, in a genera] way, at Grand Central Terminal, between trips. Mr. Duncan: You mean there is less on the electric loco- motive? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Than on the steam locomotive? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : You said the reverse. Mr. Bickford : I said there is much less. That is the way I want to be understood. There is much less work on the electric than on the steam. Mr. Duncan: Is there less mechanical responsibility? 619 Mr. Bickford: I should say, yes. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Bickford: Because there are not so many parts to be- come loose ; there are no reciprocating parts on the type of lo- comotive that we use. Therefore, we are not so likely to have them disarranged. The mechanical inspection on our locomo- tives is confined, almost exclusively, to the brake rigging. Mr. Duncan: To what? Mr. Bickford : To the brake rigging. On the locomotive they make no mechanical inspection. Mr. Duncan: Is that required of the engineer? Mr. Bickford: That is in a general way, when they arrive at the terminal and before going out. They make no mechani- cal inspection of any multiple unit equipment. Mr. Duncan: Where do they get the multiple unit equip- ment? Mr. Bickford: They get that at the tie-up tracks in the yard. Mr. Duncan : Do you have to go to any engine house for it? Mr. Bickford: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: Is the man on the multiple unit responsible for the bearings of the running gear? Mr. Bickford: No, sir. Mr. Duncan : Have you ridden on the multiple unit and the electric locomotive and the steam engine? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Which do you think is the easier riding? Mr. Bickford: The electric. Mr. Duncan: And which, the multiple unit or the electric locomotive ? Mr. Bickford : Well, I do not know that there is much dif- ference. Some cars will ride harder than others, and some locomotives will ride harder than others. As a general proposition, I would say that the riding of the electric loco- motive or multiple unit car is about the same as the average passenger coach. Mr. Duncan : How long does it require an engineer to pre- pare an electric locomotive? Mr. Bickford : Our trains are delivered to us at High Bridge bv the steam locomotives. Our engine despatchers office is 620 just across three tracks from what we call our tie-up track for our electric engines. These trains, as. they come to us, are announced to us from FH tower ; that is 2.8 miles north of High Bridge, and the engine despatcher will then call out the number of the train that is coming and the crew will then go and get their engine. It usually takes from two to five or seven minutes., l'Yequently those trains are in sight before the men get on the- ermine. Mr. Duncan: And, is that sufficient time to allow them to get their electric locomotive in shape and go forward'? Mr. Bickford: All the inspection they do at that time is to walk around the engine, look at the fuses and in the fuse boxes, which are in plain view, look over the brake mechanism, and cut the engine off and move out on the track. Mr. Duncan: Of course, the electric locomotive hasn't any steam gauge on it, has it ? Mr. Bickford : No, sir. Mr. Duncan: How many minutes does the inspection take- that you spoke of? Mr. Bickford: That is, you mean, the preparatory inspec- tion — it takes, as I said, from about two to five minutes, the in- spection that is given. Mr. Duncan : And, that includes the opening of the Mr. Bickford: (Interrupting). That includes the placing in of all the switches. The usual practice is for one man to get on the engine when they go across. He cuts in the main switch and the various switches that are in the control mechanism and the other man stays down on the ground and cuts the engine off where it is coupled to other locomotives. Mr. Duncan : Something has been said about the danger of broken glass on a multiple unit train. Is that same danger present on a locomotive, or is there the same opportunity for looking out of the window and watching the track ahead, the same as on a steam locomotive ? Mr. Bickford : I would say, so far as the electric locomotive is concerned,, it is quite similar to a steam locomotive, so far as hazard is concerned from broken glass. The engineer does not, on our type of electric locomotive, sit on the front end as 621 -they do on the multiple unit car. There is a cab nine feet long .an auxiliary cab out from the engine Mr. Duncan : Have you any photographs there that you chij let the Commission look at, showing the inside of the electric locomotive? Mr. Bickford: (Producing papers). Here are two views showing relatively the position of the engineer and fireman in the cab; these are inside views of the cab showing relatively the position of both of these men. Mr. Duncan: Have you a reverse lever on your electric locomotive? Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Duncan: How does it compare with that of a steam locomotive? Mr. Bickford : It is a little wrench. This is the reverse lever ,of an electric locomotive (exhibiting). Mr. Duncan : And, is that the method of reversing the loco- motive ? Mr. Bickford : It stands relatively, just about in this posi- tion, in either direction. When you want the locomotive to go . ahead, it stands in about this position with reference to the engi- neer and, if you want to reverse it, you simply move the handk the other way (illustrating). Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Case, one of the witnesses for the engineers, stated that quite frequently delays occur from trouble with fuses. Have you any of those fuses with you? Mr. Bickford: (Producing). Yes, here are the two types of fuses that we use. This is what we call the no-arc type They vary in size. That is the smallest size that we use on our equipment — and that is enclosed, and you cannot detect very readily whether that fuse is blown or not, it may or may not be a good fuse. This type of fuse is used on both equipments, what we call the copper ribbon fuse. This type of fuse is used in the control circuit of both cars and locomotives. The inspec- tion report referred to refers, in so far as the inspection of fuse? on the multiple unit trains are concerned, to this type of fuse, This type, of fuse is underneath the car, and the men never make any inspection of that. In fact, I asked some of our engi- neers yesterdav morning, — men who have been in the service 622 since we commenced, — whether they ever put one of these in a multiple unit car, and one fellow told me he thought he had once, and he had been there since 1907. Mr. Duncan: In so far as the Mr. Bickford: (Interrupting.) These fuses do, occasionally blow. I have some reports here for the first six months of this year. There was 182 days in the first six months. This type of fuse, the four ampere fuse in the control circuit, which controls the mechanism for moving the car, we had 187 — that is checked out of the storeroom, 187 of those checked out, for the entire ser- vice, showing an average of just a little over one per day. Mr. Duncan : How many trains do you run a day? Mr. Bickford: We run 118 trains; 56 on the Hudson Division and 62 on the Harlem Division. On Saturdays, a little extra service, and on Sundays not quite so many. Now, there i= another 25-amr>ere fuse on this circuit, also in the control circuit We blew 80 of those ; at least, we checked out 80 in the first six months, showing that the average is less than one-half of one per day in the entire service. Mr. Duncan : How many fuses are there on a train, for in- stance, or a locomotive! Mr. Bickford: In the control circuits we now have six of this type of fuse. There is one in the compressor circuit. Mr. Duncan : Now, does the fireman ever put those fuses in ? Mr. Bickford: Not on M. U. trains. They do on locomo- tives, but we have much less trouble on locomotives than we do on M. TJ. trains. Mr. Duncan: You do not have any firemen on the multiple units, do you? Mr. Bickford : No, sir. Mr. Duncan: Is there any danger attending the putting in of that fuse? Mr. Bickford: No, sir, not if they follow instructions. Mr. Duncan: What means or devices has the company for eliminating that danger ? Mr. Bickford: This is on the negative side of a switch al- ways, and all that is necessary to do, to kill the circuit at that fuse end, is to open the switch. That does not apply to one type of fuse which we have which we call the 100 ampere fuse, which controls all the auxiliary circuits. That fuse is also under the 623 car and it does occasionally blow. Our record shows that we had four delays for that 100 ampere fuse, in the year 1911. That fuse disables the train. Mr. Duncan : But, you only had four delays on that account during that year? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir, for 1911. Mr. Duncan : Have you any statistics showing the fatalities ■or injuries received by those in the electric service? Mr. Judson: Have you not an exhibit on that point? Mr. Duncan: We have, but it does not go into detail in this particular service, and I want to illustrate it. Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir, we have. Do you want it? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Bickford : Our records since we commenced in the elec- tric service shows that on the locomotives, since 1907, that is, for the entire service, we have two engineers that were quite ;seriously burned; that is, they lost time because of short cir- cuits on locomotives, and we had Mr. Duncan: How long were they laid off, or rather, out of service? Mr. Bickford : I think that one of them was off 21 days and the other probably four or five weeks, I don't recall exactly. For comparative purposes, however, we have only included 1909, 1910 and 1911, because we could not get th,e steam locomo- tive mileage for the years prior to that in this territory. This table shows that since 1909, we had one engineer seriously burned and lost time, and two firemen in electric service. While, in the same territory on steam locomotives, we had ten engineers injured and 32 firemen, on a good deal less mileage basis. The percentages when figured up show about one in fifteen, for engi- neers and one in twenty, for firemen. These records I might state are taken from the Claim Department's records. Now, if you want to go into detail, as to how these men were hurt, I could tell you that, but that is Mr. Duncan : No, not unless the Board would want it. Mr. Van Hise : The average is what we need. Mr. Eidlitz : Are we to understand then, Mr. Witness, that the danger to the engineer or to the fireman in operating the electric train is less than it is in operating the steam engine? Mr. Bickford : Yes, sir, I would say very much less. 624 Mr. Shaw : You would consider that that ratio would proba- bly carry through a still wider sphere of operations, so that if you considerably multiplied the number of electric trains it would still be a ratio of about 15 or 20 to one? Mr. Biekford: I should say, if anything, the ratio would become more favorable to the men and the company, that is, there would be fewer fatalities and injuries. Take, for exam- ple, the first case we had, the man was quite seriously burned ; something happened in the auxiliary cab and at that time we had lightning arresters on these locomotives. A lightning ar- rester is simply a small space between two ends of a cable. He shut off and he went out in the cab and commenced to work around there, and evidently he dislodged something that drop- ped down into this lightning arrester and it formed a short cir- cuit, and there was a bad flash and he was burned. We immedi- ately took off the lightning arresters. Now, the only other engi- neer we had, that was seriously burned, was by a grounded am- meter. That ammeter is placed in front of the engineer and it is set on a slate base. That ammeter in some way became charged and the engineer in working around there, pushed a pipe, which is a bracket for a lamp, down on top of it and it blowed the circuit, and there was a fl.ash, and he was seriously burned, his hands and face. We commenced then, to devise some means to overcome that trouble. We put on a box — built a box on first, and then we tried out also, an insulated cover. Orders have been placed I am told for covers, now, to cover all these ammeters. Mr. Judson: Were these lightning arresters put in for protection against lightning? Mr. Biekford: Yes, it was supposed, when these locomotives were built, that heavy static charges when thunderstorms came up, might affect the equipment, and come in over the same line that we draw our power from, and they were put in for that purpose, to protect the equipment. Mr. Judson: But you have taken them out? Mr. Biekford: We have taken them out, because there is really n necessity for them. The conductors that carry the current are heavy enough to take care of all static charges that may come in that wav. 625 Mr. Judson: Have you had any trouble from any violent electric storms on that account? Mr. Bickford : Never have had. Mr. Judson : Do you think this proposition, you have spoken of, as to casualties, would have been good if your electric ser- vice was extended? Suppose you ran electric engines from Albany to New York? Mr. Bickf ord: Perhaps I had better put it this way: As mm become experienced with electric equipment; we draw onr men, in the electric service, from the steam road roster, and there are a good many changes in the service on the Hudson Eiver side, due to a local condition that will be remedied when, we get longer mileage. Now, these frequent changes and get- ting new men into the service frequently, I think will protect that. Mr. Judson : The point I had in mind was whether the great disparity, that you call attention to, in casualties between steam and electric locomotives would not hold if the electric service was extended to the same class of service that is now performed by the steam locomotives, that is, for long runs? Mr. Bickford: I think so, because men will become more familiar with the equipment. Mr. Judson: Oh, yes. Mr. Bickford: For example, one fireman that was burned set a lamp down and allowed the bale of the lamp to drop over against a live bus bar on the locomotive. That is the way he was burned. Now, men will get accustomed to look out for those things. Mr. Judson: It is a matter of training and experience? Mr. Bickford : Just as on the steam locomotive ; yes, sir. Mr. Eidlitz: Now, these injuries you described were re- ceived through the agency of the electric current. How does that compare with injuries received by the steam engineers on the same basis ; that is, through injuries received through the machine itself? I take it that is what you are talking about, is it not ? In other words, what I am trying to get at, sir, is, if these firemen and engineers were injured on the steam service through exterior accident, I do not see how that is particularly material. It is material, if they are injured through the agency 626 of the steam equipment, as compared with, an electrical equip- ment. Mr. Bickford : I could not tell you how those figures on steam were arrived at. I assume that these figures are for men that were actually in service at the time on steam locomotives. Now, just whether that statement is correct or not, I could not verify that. Mr. Judson: If it was a casualty from derailment or col- lision, it would hardly be analogous. Mr. Bickford: Oh, yes, I Mr. Duncan: I think we can work that up. Mr. Eidlitz : The relation of one in fifteen, to one in twenty, is a considerable difference. Mr. Duncan: I think we can work that up and submit it to the Board, in the shape of a statement. Mr. Bickford: (To Mr. Judson.) I did not get your ques- tion, please. Mr. Judson: I was going to say, in the suburban service, you do not have the collisions or derailments that frequently cause trouble in through service 1 ? Mr. Bickford: Perhaps not to the same extent, south of the Harlem Kiver, but you get north of Spuyten Duyvil at least, and to all intents and purposes it is regular through express train service ; they are mixed up with all kinds of service. And, that is true also on the Harlem River Division between North White Plains — in fact, into the Grand Central Terminal. We operate express trains there the same as were operated previous to the introduction of electrical equipment. Mr. Judson : Do you see any probability, as a practical man. of the extension of the electric service 1 Mr. Bickford: Oh, yes; I think that gradually it is going to invade the territory now occupied by the steam locomotives, but it will necessarily be slow, for a time, because of the im- mense outlay of money involved, and it is only where city au- thorities and boards of health commence to clamor, and com- panies are forced to put it in, that it will be introduced. Mr. Duncan: That is all. The Chairman: Unless Mr. Stone wants to ask. Mr. Stone: I believe you are the electrical expert for the New York Central, Mr. Bickford, is that correct? 627 Mr. Bickf ord : I am their Road Foreman of Electric Equip, ment. I do not know that I am an expert. I handle their equipment and their locomotive engineers and firemen on their electric divisions. Mr. Stone : How long did it take you to qualify for your present position! Mr. Bickf ord : I spent about a year and a half at Schenec- tady studying the locomotive, from a heavy traction stand- point. Mr. Deans, who was General Superintendent of Motive Power of the New York City System asked me to go down there and do that, and make such suggestions as I thought would be valuable in developing this machine. Mr. Stone : You were really learning the business, were you not — you were a steam engineer before that, of years of expe- rience ? Mr. Bickf ord : Yes, that is one phase of it. Mr. Stone : And, yet you make the statement here that any other man can qualify in four days ; how do you reconcile those two statements? Mr. Bickf ord: The best evidence of it, Mr. Stone, is that our men are qualifying and handling these trains successfully on that training. Mr. Stone : You also made the statement that, as men be- come experienced, there would be less fatalities — it is evident that the four days' preparation does not give the necessary experience for safe operation, is that correct! Mr. Bickf ord : No, I would not put it that way. I said that the probabilities were, as men became more familiar with the equipment there would be less liability to accident. Mr. Stone: How far do your electric locomotives run at present? Mr. Bickford: 24 miles on the Harlem side and 7 miles on the Hudson Division side. Mr. Stone : This year and a half you were at Schenectady, you were under full pay by the company, while you were learn- ing, were you not? Mr. Bickford: I had a salary. I don't know as you could say it was full pay. It would depend upon what you would 628 call full pay. I would have been satisfied if it had been fuller or larger. Mr. Stone: Was it a maximum or minimum clay you worked? Mr. Biekf ord : Some of them were maximum. Mr. Stone: You stated there were no steam gauges on these electric locomotives; don't you use a steam gauge on your flash boiler for train heating! Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. I will modify that original state- ment to that extent. This is a low pressure boiler, a very small affair. It evaporates 800 to 900 pounds of water per hour, it is an oil burner, used for heating trains, and at other times, it is not in service ; only when the weather conditions are such that it is necessary to keep the trains warm, is that boiler used. Mr. Stone: Dpn't you have some other gauges in there that take the place of the steam gauge? Mr. Bickford : The ammeter I spoke of and described a few minutes ago is the only other gauge, except your air gauge. Mr. Stone : You still have air gauges the same as a steam locomotive ? Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Stone: You didn't bring an ammeter with you, did you? Mr. Bickford: No, but I can if you wish. Mr. Stone: The reverse lever is all you got? Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Stone: How many amperes does it take to blow this ribbon fuse you have there 1 Mr. Blackford: This is one of the 1,000 amperes; this is on the locomotive. The normal rating of that is 1,000 am- peres. That will stand an overload of about 50 per cent., for probably a minute or a minute and a half, and then it will burn out. Mr. Stone : You say four of these were blown out last year!? Mr. Bickford: Oh, no, that is a different type of fuse. 1" ' said the 100 ampere fuse, of this type, from which all the auxil- iary circuits in the multiple unit car or train are fed, that we had four delays through that. 152!) Mr. Stone: Those 100 ampere fuses are underneath the body of the car! Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Stone : In case it blows out who replaces it, on the line of road! Mr. Bickford: The engineer. Mr. Stone : It is necessary for him to climb down under the car in order to do it? Mr. Bickford : No, he stands beside the car. The fuse hangs so you can walk along the side of the car and reach it and put it in. Mr. Stone : Mr. Bickford, is there room in your tunnels for a man to go along beside the car and do it? Mr. Bickford: Oh, yes, they have done it. Hold on there. I will modify that. I don't know that they have ever done it. It can be done. Mr. Stone: Isn't it true the clearance is so close in some of these tunnels it is necessary to climb through under the train to detect it? Mr. Bickford: I don't know that that statement is true. It . may or may not be. Mr. Stone: Is there any danger from shock in replacing this 100 ampere fuse? Mr. Bickford: It depends altogether, on how the man re- places it. In case the man pulls a jumper between the car and the next car in the train, if this is the only one that is involved, when he is operating the train, and then takes the paddles that we have provided for each car and paddles the car, the car is dead and he can insert that easily. Mr. Stone : In case the paddles happen to be wet, what would happen ? Mr. Bickford : Not likely anything to happen unless it was wet enough that the water would be running off of it. Mr. Stone : You say a man should pull his jumpers before going under the car to do this ? Mr. Bickford : He should, on the head car. Mr. Stone : Is there any danger in pulling these jumpers ? Mr. Bickford: No, sir. Mr. Stone : No one has ever been burned pulling them? 630 Mr. Bickford : We have perhaps, had one or two cases ; none of our engineers, that I recall. Mr. Stone: Is there any condition that you know of where the engineer would, in disconnecting one of your one point jumpers, get a shock or be burned? Mr. Bickford: Yes, that condition may apply; as a general proposition, no. If you had a trailer car and a motor car con- nected together, your trailer car has no contact with your third rail. Now, if your heater switches or your light switches on your trailer cars were in and you pulled your jumper, you might receive a shock or burn, but our men are all instructed to satisfy themselves that those switches are all pulled before jumpers, under those circumstances. Mr. Stone: Is this list of injuries in each class of service $rou submit, is the same number of men employed in each class of service that the ratio was taken from ? Mr. Bickford : I would not say that, because there are more men in the steam than in the electric service. It is the mileage in the electric zone. This is for those three locomotives, and 2,701,469 miles made on steam locomotives. Mr. Stone: This large number of injuries on steam locomo- tives that you speak of, were they all due to the use of steam — would not many of those injuries have been common to either class of power. Mr. Bickford: I would not say that. I do not know, as I stated before, with reference to these statistics — I assumed they were actively in service when they were injured. Mr. Stone : "Would it not be possible for a man to be in ser- vice in either car and still be injured, both by steam or the elec- tric current, either? | Mr. Bickford : That is quite possible. Mr. Stone: The point I was trying to bring out now, Mr. Chairman, is, in this large mortality in the steam service, whether the men were really all injured because they were actually nsnig steam, or whether the injuries would not have been common, had they had either class of power. Mr. Bickford : Well, I think that what they wanted to empha- size in this statement was this : A claim has been made that it is- more hazardous, I believe it has been put that way, to run an 631 •electric locomotive, and that electric service was more hazardous than steam service. These statistics have been compiled with that sole idea in mind. These men were actually in service. Of -course, on the electric equipment I can speak for that, and I am sure that the same thing was true for the steam road data. Mr. Stone.- How many more signals are there now in the electric zone than when you entered the electric service. Mr. Bickf ord : I could not answer that question. Mr. Stone : They have been largely increased, though, have they not? Mr. Bickf ord : Yes. Mr. Stone : These men who are injured from electric burns, do they recover as rapidly as a man who is injured by steam? Does a burn from electricity heal as quickly as a. burn from .steam? Mr. Bickf ord : That depends entirely, I think, on the severity* of the burn. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that, when the nerve tissue is destroyed, it is almost impossible to get a burn from electricity to heal? Mr. Bickford: That is true from steam. Mr. Stone: Experience has not proven so. Do these men who receive these heavy shocks in electricity, fully recover their normal condition again? Mr. Bickford : So far as we are able to judge, I should say, yes. I do not think there can be any case cited where a man has not, in our service. I have frequently come in contact with this and been shocked myself. I don't believe I have suffered any ill effect from it. Mr. Stone: Heavy shocks, so as to' Mr. Bickford: Enough to puncture the skin and burn the skin, and I had just as soon have it, as to put my hand on a hot injector pipe. Mr. Stone: And, in your opinion, there is practically no danger connected with the electric service? Mr. Bickford : The hazard is less, in this way. So far as the risk of handling the train is concerned and running the train, I think it is less, because you have a better view, you are placed up on the electric equipment where you get a better 632 view of your tracks and your signals; there. is no steam or any- thing to interfere with your observation. The Mr. Stone: You will have the same danger of derailment that you have with steam, have you not? Mr. Bickford: In a general way, yes. Mr. Stone: If an electric expert, like you occasionally gets burned with the current, how would an inexperienced man of four days' experience protect himself! Mr. Bickford: That only emphasizes what I have already said. That was in the early days, when I was getting my ex- perience. Mr. Stone : When you received these shocks, did you have any warning; did you expect them? Mr. Bickford : No, I did not expect it, neither does anybody. I guess there is not anybody expects it. Mr. Stone : You spoke of an injector pipe. If you put your hand on a steam pipe of an injector, you would naturally expect you were going to get burned, would you not? Mr. Bickford: Surely, and 1 expect, if I put my hand on a live wire, to get shocked. Mr. Stone: And, you often get shocked when you don't know there is a live wire there, don't you? Mr. Bickford : I would say as a general proposition, no. Men know, on our equipment, where the live wires are. These exposed parts are all in view. Mr. Stone : How did this man whom you state was burned from the ammeter, or the grounding of his base that the ammeter sets on, know that it was alive? Mr. Bickford: That is the exceptional case where we have had the accident, just as I have said here; just the same as when a locomotive boiler explodes, the man does not know it before he meets with the accident. Mr. Stone: But, this locomotive boiler explodes in a flash, does it not? Mr. Bickford : And this ammeter went up in a flash. Mr. Stone : But it had probably been grounded for hours and was still wdrking, was it not? Mr. Bickford: It may have been or may not. Mr. Stone: In the case of the fireman being burned by 633 setting his lamp down, did he know that if that bail fell over he would get a shock? Mr. Bickford: He knew that these cut-out switches were alive, and he did not give that ammeter any thought. He care- lessly set the lamp down and dropped the bail over. He did not have that in mind at all. Mr. Stone : Had he set that lamp down on a steam engine and the bail fell over, would anything have happened! Mr. Bickford: Probably not. Mr. Stone: Have you any road crossings at grade in your electric zone? Mr. Bickford: We have a few. Mr. Stone: What kind of alarm whistles do you use? Mr. Bickford : We have regular air alarm whistles that we use, and most of these road crossings have a watchman. Mr. Stone: Is the engineer required to sound a whistle alarm ? Mr. Bickford: Under certain rules, yes, sir. These same rules apply to both steam and electric engines? Mr. Stone : I think that is all I care to ask. Mr. Eidlitz: I would like to ask the witness one question to find out whether the Board fairly gets the gist of his testi- mony. Do we understand how, Mr. Witness, that it is your contention that being a steam engineer, an ex-steam engineer, that the operation of the electric train is less hazardous and causes less effort than the steam engine, to the engineer? Mr. Bickford : Yes, sir, I would say so. Now, if you wish me to, I will go into details and tell you why. Mr. Eidlitz: I think you have elucidated that part of it pretty clearly. Mr. Morrissey: I believe you expressed the view that the duties and responsibilities of an electric engineer were not as great as those of a steam engineer? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey : Is that view expressed as a locomotive engi- neer or as a railway official ? Mr. Bickford : As both. I want to be perfectly fair in the statement with these men. I am a member of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, and worked with these men, worked on committees with them. I am well acquainted with Mr. "Wat- 634 son, and worked on committees many times with him, and helped to make some of these agreements. Mr. Morrissey: Is it not natural though for a locomotive engineer to modify his views as to the duties and responsibili- ties of the occupation when he becomes a railway official! Mr. Bickford: Why, that is perhaps true to some extent; it would be natural. The Chairman : Have you been injured since you have been in the service? Mr. Bickford : No, sir ; I never was seriously injured in any service. Mr. Judson: What do you find the disposition of the men to be ! Do they prefer the electric service or the steam service ? Mr. Bickford: On our Harlem Division side I would say that generally they prefer the electric service. The conditions under which; they work are much more comfortable, and, as I have said, I believe are less hazardous. On a steam locomotive you have got the boiler and boiler mountings and the fire and boiler attachments, and are responsible directly for a locomo- tive boiler. You do not have that responsibility on an electric engine. Mr. Judson : I am asking now, a specific question. What do the men prefer? Mr. Bickford: I think, generally speaking, they prefer the electric. We bjave had two or there cases going out — that is where the conditions are favorable, or the same. On the Hudson Division side that is not true, because they have long mileage between New York City and Albany, and they can make their pay in comparatively a few hours, as has been testified. Mr. Judson: New York City to Albany? Mr. Bickford : Yes, sir ; the long runs from New York City, or High Bridge, which is within New York City, to Albany. The Chairman: He is talking about the steam. Mr. Judson: Oh, the steam. Mr. Bickford : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : I misunderstood you. Mr. Bickford: And, our men generally prefer that service, when their seniority will give them a through run to Albany. But, that is not true, as a general proposition, on the Harlem 635 side. I think I am correct in saying that the men prefer elec- tric service, generally speaking, on the Harlem side, where the electrification has been completed for 24 miles. Mr. Stone: Mr. Bickford, is not that largely true because it brings them in home at the end of their day's work? Mr. Bickford: I do not know that thjat could be safely ar- gued as a reason for it, because they all run out of North White Plains and most of these men live in that territory, White Plains or North White Plains, so that they could run on either. Now, it brings them home every night ; that is one of the con- veniences of the service, of course. In steam service, on the through runs, they would be away from home every other night. Mr. Stone : If a man was not a steam engineer could he qual- ify for electric service in four days"? Mr. Bickford: So far as qualifying on the equipment, he would do it in the same time as our firemen (who are new men that we hire) do it, and locomotive engineers do it, who have had no training previously, on electric equipment. Do not misunderstand me. I am not saying we make locomotive engineers in four days. Mr. Stone : The point I want to bring out is this : Can you go out here on this trolley line, away from your railroad, and pick up a man and teach him to successfully operate one of your trains in the electric zone in four days? Mr. Bickford: No; but we can teach b,im to successfully operate an electric locomotive and multiple unit train much quicker than you can educate him to handle steam locomotives. Mr. Duncan : He wouldn't learn the rules of the road in four days? Mr. Bickford : Certainly not. Mr. Duncan: You do not want to give the Board the im- pression that a stranger can come in and learn the rules in four days? Mr. Bickford : Certainly not. The Chairman: Is it not true that your electric engineers must know pretty much all that a locojnotive engineer knows, plus the additional knowledge required to run an electrical engine ? Mr. Bickford : Yes ; that is true to this extent : He must know 63G all about train movements and the handling of trains, train or- ders, the physical characteristics of his road ; then he must un- derstand the equipment. Now, the only difference is in the equipment itself, the inherent things in the machine, if you please. Mr. Duncan: The electric locomotive engineer does not have to know anything about a steam locomotive! Mr. Bickford: Not necessarily. Mr. Stone: He has to know all about air brake equipment and pass the same examination, does he not? Mr. Bickford: Yes, sir; the same devices are common to- both steam and electric equipment. Mr. Stone: He takes the same examination on signal rule,?- and block signals, does he not? Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Duncan : The difference grows out of the knowledge of the particular machine itself I Mr. Bickford : That is it exactly. Mr. Duncan: The other conditions respecting road informa- tion, as you might say, are the same? Mr. Bickford: Yes. Mr. Duncan: That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Duncan : Mr. Armstrong. Lewis N. Aemsteong was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan : Now, I would like the Board to understand we have several other men who are familiar with the electric loco- motive operation to testify as Mr. Bickford has testified. If the Board has not firmly in mind what we are trying to bring out by Mr. Bickford 's testimony, namely, the difference incident to the operation of the machine itself, I am willing to rest con- tent with that testimony. Mr. Eidlitz : I think it would be important, Mr. Chairman, 637 If there are some other witnesses who feel the same as the last -witness, so far as that part of it is concerned, for the Board to find that that opinion is possessed by several witnesses. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Armstrong will now speak from the mul- tiple unit standpoint, more particularly than from the electric locomotive. What is your name? Mr. Armstrong: Lewis N. Armstrong. Mr. Duncan: Where do you live, Mr. Armstrong? Mr. Armstrong: Camden, N. J. Mr. Duncan: And, are you in the employ of the Pennsyl- vania Company? Mr. Armstrong : West Jersey & Seashore Division of the Pennsylvania Eailroad. Mr. Duncan : And, what is your position with that company? Mr. Armstrong : Assistant Road Foreman of engines. Mr. Duncan: How long have you had that position? Mr. Armstrong: I have been acting in that capacity about six years. Mr. Duncan: And prior to that time what was your occu- pation? Mr. Armstrong: Locomotive engineer. Mr. Duncan : You operated a steam locomotive ? Mr. Armstrong : Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, how long did you operate a steam loco- . motive? Mr. Armstrong : About eight years. Mr. Duncan: Over what portion of the Pennsylvania? Mr. Armstrong: The same division. Mr. Duncan: That is the West Jersey & Seashore? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And, that division was electrified, was it? Mr. Armstrong: In 1906, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : And, what type of electric trains are operated over that division? Mr. Armstrong: Multiple unit trains. Mr. Duncan : And, how many miles have you on the electric service there? Mr. Armstrong : We have 65 miles to Atlantic City and a 10 mile branch from Newfield to Millville electrified. 638 Mr. Duncan: And, what are your duties in connection with, that multiple unit service f Mr. Armstrong: To instruct the motormen on the multiple- unit trains and to instruct the enginemen on the steam locomo- tives in the operation of air brakes. Mr. Duncan: Is there any steam operation over the same- tracks? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: So that your duties are two-fold, first, in in- structing the multiple unit men respecting the operation of their trains, and instructing the other employees in connection with the operation of the air brakes. Mr. Armstrong : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: On steam service? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: When did you learn to operate the multiple unit trains? Mr. Armstrong: In 1906 when the road was being electri- fied, I visited the Long Island Eailroad and the Boston Elevated Road, which at that time was electrified in order to enable the steam engineers who were then on the West Jersey to handle our multiple unit trains. Mr. Duncan : That is, you went out and learned the way to. operate multiple units? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How long did it take you to learn to operate- the multiple units? Mr. Armstrong: I was about two weeks, all told. Mr. Duncan: Had you ever had any electrical experience before that? Mr. Armstrong: No, sir. Mr. Duncan : How long does it take the men on your road' to learn to operate the multiple unit engine? Mr. Armstrong : We qualify the regular steam men to oper- ate multiple unit trains in three days. Mr. Duncan : That, is assuming the man knows the rules of the road, the signals and things of that kind? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Will a fireman qualify as quickly as an en- gineer? 639 Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: What has been your experience as to that in the six years that you have been training these men! Mr. Armstrong: I think we had one case of where a fire- man could not pass a mechanical examination for locomotive en- gineer, on locomotive breakdowns, whom we qualified to run an electric train. Mr. Duncan: You had one instance of that kind? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Shaw: Could you take a new and comparatively inex- perienced fireman and make a man that you would send out in charge of an electric train, or would he have to have been a fireman long enough so that he had become thoroughly familiar with the fast operation and movement of trains on track? Mr. Armstrong: He should have a knowledge of the rules the operation of trains and signals and grades. Mr. Duncan: That is, in transportation matters, they have to meet the same requirements? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Have the same qualifications? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Is the service on your road interchangeable, that is, does a man have the right to pass for steam to elec- tric? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And electric to steam? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: In other words they maintain their seniority rights in steam service ? Mr. Armstrong : Yes, sir ; all these men, both in steam and electric service are on the same roster, and the extra men are called for either steam or electric service as needed. Mr. Duncan : They take the steam or electric and it depends on the seniority? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And, of course their desire for one run as against the other? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. 640 Mr. Duncan: What has "been your experience as to which class of service the men prefer, steam or the electric? Mr. Armstrong: We have about 15 men who came in the electric service in 1906 and will never give it up, from their own statements. They are perfectly satisfied, and we think they are permanent fixtures as long as there is electric service. Some of these men are getting advanced in years and some of them have been injured, and they really state that they are un- able to handle a steam locomotive. Mr. Duncan: Now, from your experience with both the steam locomotives and the multiple unit, which would you say was the safest so far as operation was concerned! Mr. Armstrong: I think the multiple unit service is safer. Mr. Duncan : Why'? Mr. Armstrong: Due to the fact that the boilers and steam pipes and such as that, are entirely removed from the cab. Mr. Duncan: How does the service compare in matter of comfort? Tt is more comfortable on the multiple unit than it is on the steam cab? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Armstrong: The cabs are clean and comfortable, and I think the cars ride much better than the old steam locomo- tives. Mr. Duncan : Now, how does the physical labor required in the operation of an electric multiple unit train compare with the physical labor in the operation of a steam locomotive? Mr. Armstrong: It is very much easier to operate a mul- tiple unit train, due to the fact that there are only two devices in the cab which are handled in moving the train in either direction; that is, the controller and the brake valve. Mr. Duncan: And, each of those merely requires the ex- ertion of small physical effort? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Now, what, if any, provisions have been made in the multiple unit for eliminating the dangers of electric shock when it is necessary for a man to make any small repairs on the road? Mr. Armstrong: It is possible, when repairs are necessary 641 along the road, for the man to cut the current out on any cir- cuit on which it is necessary to work. Mr. Duncan : Making it dead, at that point? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. The men are instructed in that matter. Mr. Duncan: How are these multiple unit trains heated? Mr. Armstrong: By electricity. Mr. Duncan: You haven't any boiler for the purpose of generating steam, on the multiple unit, as they do on the loco- motive? Mr. Armstrong: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: And, that is controlled by a switch? Mr. Armstrong : The closing of a switch cuts in the heating circuits. Mr. Duncan: What would you say as to how the danger in operating a multiple unit compares with the danger in con- nection with the operation of a steam locomotive? Mr. Armstrong: I would say the danger was much less on a multiple unit than on a locomotive. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Armstrong : As we have never had anyone injured from striking objects along the road, I would consider that the ab- sence of the boiler and the liability of bursting tubes, or boiler explosion, or steam pipes failing, was in the line of safety. Mr. Duncan : That is, that was eliminated on the multiple unit, while it existed on the steam locomotive? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Duncan: What access has the operator, on the mul- tiple unit train, to the body of the car? Mr. Armstrong: You mean in case of an impending acci- dent? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Armstrong : He has a chance to open the door and get in the car. Mr. Duncan: In other words, this cab is right in the front of the body of the car, the main portion of the car? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Stone: You stated that you visited Boston and the 642 Long Island Railroad, in 1906, to learn the operation of the multiple unit train, did you not f Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And, it took you two weeks ? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: "Why did it take you two weeks in qualifying, when you can qualify other men in three days ? Mr. Armstrong: In the first place, the equipment was not exactly similar. At that time, the cars were building and I had to get an idea of all the circuits on the car in order to be able to explain it to someone else. Mr. Stone: Don't these other men have to have a general idea of the circuits on every car '! Mr. Armstrong: A general idea; yes, sir. Mr. Stone : You stated that you think they prefer multiple unit service, because the cabs are clean and comfortable. Is it not also a fact that these cabs are very cold in winter? Mr. Armstrong: They are slightly cold in winter, but not any more so than the cab of a locomotive. Mr. Stone: Have you got a heater in these cabs that will heat them comfortably! Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Isn't it possible to have the cab of a locomo- tive just as clean and comfortable as these cabs? Mr. Armstrong: It is not kept that way on the ordinary locomotive. Mr. Stone : Didn't we use to keep them that way years ago? Mr. Armstrong: I don't think so. Mr. Stone: You state none of these men, in multiple unit service, have ever been injured along the road by striking any^ thing? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone: Have any of the men in steam service on that same division been injured at the same time by striking any- thing? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir, we have had collisions in which steam men were injured. Mr. Stone: Have you had any collisions between electric trains? 643 Mr. Armstrong: I don't recall any. Mr. Stone : You spoke of these 15 men who will never leave electric service. Is it not a fact that these men lost their runs at the time the road was electrified, and there were not enough steam engines left for everyone to hav an engine? Mr. Armstrong : Yes, but at the same time those men could have asserted their seniority and moved someone else to secure a steam run, if they wished it. Mr. Stone : Does not the fact remain that some men on that division, if they work, have got to work electric trains? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone: Either that or lose out entirely? (No reply). Mr. Stone: In qualifying for this electric service do you* men receive three days' pay for qualifying? Mr. Armstrong : Until the runs were filled, yes. At the pres- ent time, if they wish to enter an electric run and bid it in by the advertising system, they would do so on their own time. Mr. Stone : They have to learn on their own time, whether it takes three days or three weeks, it is their own time? Mr. Armstrong : Three days is about the extent of the time given. Mr. Stone : But, the fact remains, does it not, that regardless of the time required, the man has to learn it at his own expense? Mr. Armstrong: Due to the fact that he has let an oppor- tunity go by him to qualify, at the time when it was done at the company's expense. Mr. Stone : That was six years ago ? Mr. Armstrong: Three years ago. , Mr. Stone : When they were filling the runs ? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone : But, the fact remains the only way some of these men could remain in the service, without moving to other points was to take the electric service? Mr. Armstrong : Yes. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that your men in the cabs have to wear unusually heavy clothing in order to keep warm in the winter on these multiple unit trains? 64-t Mr. Armstrong : I think all of us wore unusually heavy cloth- ing last winter, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that you have to calk up all the cracks around the cab in order to keep from freezing to death- on these multiple unit trains? Mr. Armstrong: We have had no cases where a man came in with his hands or ears frosted. Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact that, in learning, you were: present at the shops all the time these cars were being built? Mr. Armstrong : No, sir. Mr. Stone : Were you not there when the motors were being put on! Mr. Armstrong : Yes, sir, I was there when the motors were being put on, but not all the while the cars were being constructed. Mr. Stone: Well, from the time they were ready for the electrical equipment you were there, were you not? Mr. Armstrong : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: What is your schedule time for this 65 mile- division! Mr. Armstrong: One hour and a half. Mr. Stone : That is 90 minutes for 65 miles ! Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone: Including all stops! Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone : How many stops do you make ? Mr. Armstrong : It varies from three to five or six. Mr. Stone: What rate of speed do you generally run! Mr. Armstrong : From 50 to 55 miles an hour. Mr. Stone: From the time you saw you were going to strike a team, do you think you would have time to open the side door of your cab and get back to the rear end of the car before the thing happened? Mr. Armstrong: I don't think a man would be out there on the front if he saw he was going to strike a team, after he had done all that was in his power to stop the train. Mr. Stone: Suppose an automobile or team flashed up on the crossing at the last instant, would you have time to get clear back to the safety zone, running at that speed? 645 Mr. Armstrong: We have never had an automobile come up into the cab where the man was sitting. We have had some that were struck. Mr. Stone : Have you had any of these cab windows broken .by striking anything! Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone : It is quite common, is it not '! Mr. Armstrong: Yes, it is quite common with a locomotive too, to come in with a broken cab window. Mr. Stone : You do not have such a large expansive glass „in front of you on a locomotive, do you? Mr. Armstrong: No, sir. Mr. Stone : What is the width of an ordinary cab window on a locomotive? Mr. Armstrong: Depending on the size of the locomotive; I should say it was six or eight inches. The front window, do you mean? Mr. Stone: What is the size of the windows in th|e cabs of those electric engines, the multiple unit trains? Mr. Armstrong : We have one type of car which they have a bull's eye window 18 inches in diameter, and the old type of car had a very large pane, about two feet each way. Mr. Stone : You state you never had any automobiles come in the cab. Is it not a fact that your men had a horse come in? Mr. Armstrong: I don't recall it. Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact Mr. Morrissey: Did he have a saddle on? Mr. Stone : He had harness on him. Is it not a fact another time one of your men had a man come in? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone: Do you think he would have come in througih the front window on a locomotive, either the horse or the man? Mr. Armstrong: No, sir; but the motorman was not in- jured, due to the fact the man came in. Mr. Stone : Well, that was his good fortune and not the construction of the car, was it not? The Chairman: I suppose the man was injured? Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact that instructions have been 646 issued in the making up of these trains, to put all steel cars ahead? Mr. Armstrong: So far as practicable. These instructions were issued at the request of the men. Mr. Stone: It was granted, was it not? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Stone : Why did they want steel cars ahead ? Mr. Armstrong: They liked the construction of the win- dows better. Mr. Stone : Was it not for safety ? Mr. Armstrong: It may be. Mr. Stone: What kind of an alarm whistle have you on these cars? Mr. Armstrong: An air whistle. Mr. Stone: Can they be heard for any great distance? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, under ordinary conditions you can hear them quite a good ways off. Mr. Stone: Can you hear them as far as the steam whistle? Mr. Armstrong: I don't think so. Mr. Stone: How many grade crossings have you on this 65 miles, I mean public highways? Mr. Armstrong : I have never counted them. Mr. Stone: A great many, have you not? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all. Mr. Morrissey : I wish to ask the witness a question. Why, did you qualify a fireman for the multiple unit service ? Mr. Armstrong : Because the man was due for promotion, in his turn, and had pasesd the train rule and signal examina- tion as an engineer, but had not been able to pass the locomotive breakdown examination. Mr. Morrissey: Then would he not be in the same relation to the matter as if you were qualifying a locomotive engineer? Had he not arrived at the stage when he could be considered a locomotive engineer? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. Mr. Morrissey: Have you ever had a suspension of electric operations on your division, or any section of it? Mr. Armstrong : You mean a stoppage of traffic ? 647 Mr. Morrissey: Yes, or a stoppage for any length of time. Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey : What happened as to the movement of your trains? Mr. Armstrong: We had to put locomotives on them to pull them. Mr. Morrissey : Then, . if you had a class of multiple unit men running your train who were not locomotive engineers, you could not have operated under those conditions, could you? Mr. Armstrong: Yes. sir. Mr. Morrissey: How? Mr. Armstrong: The multiple unit men did not man the locomotives that pulled them. Mr. Morrissey: I did not understand that answer. Mr. Armstrong: I think you meant to infer that the mul- tiple unit men were put on locomotives to pull the same trains. Mr. Morrissey: The question I wanted to ask was this, if you had a condition where your multiple unit motormen or en- gineers were not also steam engineers, how could you "man your steam engines during a suspension of electric operation? Mr. Armstrong: In a case of that kind, it being essential to move the passenger trains first, the freight engines would be used to pull these multiple trains. Mr. Morrissey: Could you have any effective organization where it is necessary to use both steam and electricity, if your electric engineers were not also qualified to run steam engines? Mr. Armstrong: We have never tried that; I cannot answer. Mr. Morrissey: That is all. The Chairman: Is there not a great advantage in having your electric engineers qualified as steam engineers? Mr. Armstrong: From the men's standpoint, yes. They have the choice of taking either run. The Chairman: But from the road's standpoint, is it not an advantage to have that? Mr. Armstrong: Well, as we have never had anything else but our own engineers operating those trains, I cannot say. Mr. Eidlitz: That is the question, I wanted to ask the wit- ness. At the present time, who is manning the multiple unit and such other electric trains, as you have in your service, who' is maiming those cars? 648 Mr. Armstrong: The steam locomotive engineers. Mr. Eidlitz: Or the firemen who are ready to pass into the ranks of engineers ? Mr. Armstrong: Yes, sir. (Witness excused.) Hoag Gilliam was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Duncan: Where do you live? Mr. Gillman: Stamford. Mr. Duncan: And, what is your occupation? Mr. Gilliam: Electrical Superintendent, New Haven Eoad? Mr. Duncan: How long have you had that position! Mr. Gilliam: A little over five years. Mr. Duncan: And, what are your duties! Mr. Gilliam : In charge of electrical operation of the engines, electric engines, multiple unit, overhead and the power house. Mr. Duncan: And, over what territory does your jurisdic- tion extend? Mr. Gilliam: Over the present electrified zone. Mr. Duncan: That is between what points? Mr. Gilliam: At present from Stamford to Woodlawn, and Stamford to New Canaan. Mr. Duncan: Do your trains run into the 42nd Street sta- tion? Mr. Gilliam : They run in over the New York Central from Woodlawn to the Grand Central. Mr. Duncan : You would not have any jurisdiction over that territory ? Mr. Gilliam: No, that would come under the New York Central. Mr. Duncan: Now, as Superintendent of Electric Service, what are your duties ? Mr. Gilliam: The operation of electric locomotives, the over- head line and the power house. I arrange for the qualifying of the men to handle the electric locomotives. 649 Mr. Duncan: Do you instruct them yourself? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir, that is done by the road foreman, the electric road foreman of engineers. Mr. Duncan: What class of electric power do you operate? Mr. Gilliam: We, at the present time, are operating what we call the passenger locomotives, the multiple unit, electric freight switches, and we have some freight locomotives, but, at present, use them in the passenger service. Mr. Duncan: Do you use the multiple units on your line? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: In what service. Mr. Gilliam : Passenger service. Mr. Duncan : And, the electric locomotive in both passenger and some freight service? Mr. Gilliam: We have not hauled any freight as yet The Harlem River line is being electrified at the present time, and these are brought on for testing purposes. Mr. Duncan: You do some switching, however, with your electric locomotives? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir, around Stamford. Mr. Duncan: Where do your electric locomotives operate, between Stamford and New York City? Mr. Gilliam: Between Stamford and New York City and Stamford and New Caanan. Mr. Duncan: And, where do your multiple unit trains op- erate? Mr. Gilliam: From Stamford to New York City. Mr. Duncan: Over the same rails? Mr. Gilliam: Over the same rails. Mr. Duncan: How many miles of electric service have you? Mr. Gilliam : Well, from Stamford to New York City, or to Woodlawn, is 21 miles; nine miles from Stamford to New Caanan — about eight and a half miles. Mr. Duncan: One of the witnesses called by the engineers, Mr. Garland, by name, made the statement that the safety chains were not reliable. Now, what are the safety chains to which he was referring? Mr. Gilliam: Well, we have on the corner of each of the locomotives a device known as a safety chain, that is grounded in order that the pantograph can be connected with the safety 650 chain and prevent any accident, if a man should come in contact with any of the apparatus on top of the cab. Mr. Duncan : What is a pantograph ? Mr. Gilliam: A pantograph is practically the same thing that is known as a trolley. Mr. Duncan: And, how does it differ from a trolley? Mr. Gilliam : It is a sliding contact instead of a rolling con- tact. Mr. Duncan : You haven 't any photograph, have you, there, that will show the board the difference between the trolley and pantograph? Mr. Gilliam: No, I haven't. A pantograph is just simply a shoe, 24 inches wide, and a trolley is just a wheel that runs on the trolley wire ; practically the same thing. Mr. Duncan: How does the pantograph operate? Mr. Gilliam: It is controlled by a spring for the upward pressure, and by air to pull it down. Mr. Duncan : So that it is not necessary for the man to touch it at all in raising it or lowering it? Mr. Gilliam: Not under ordinary circumstances. Mr. Duncan: Where is the switch which operates the pan- tograph? Mr. Gilliam : It is a switch on the master controller that is used to control that, to raise or lower it. Mr. Duncan: And, it is the pantograph which conducts the current from the overhead wire to the motors? Mr. Gilliam: To the transformers. Mr. Duncan: And, whenever the pantograph is down, the current is not passing from the wire to the transformers? Mr. Gilliam : When the pantograph is down from the trolley wire, that cuts off all connections with the energized wire. Mr. Duncan: Makes the locomotive dead? Mr. Gilliam : Yes. Mr. Duncan: And, perfectly safe to handle? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Gilliam, Mr. Garland made the statement that the safety chains are not reliable. What is the fact in that regard, on your line? Mr. Gilliam: I have never ''no own them to fail. 651 Mr. Duncan: You never what! Mr. Gilliam : I have never known them to fail, or any man to be injured when the safety chains were hooked onto the pan- tograph, according to instructions. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Garland has also spoken of a man who was hurt while on top of the train by the pantograph. Mr. Gilliam: I think he has reference to one of the en- gineers who was injured while lowering a pantograph by means of a stick or pole that is provided for this. In that instance, the other pantograph was against the wire and the pantograph that he was trying to unhook was energized. Mr. Duncan : Well, it would have been possible for him to have used the switch and lowered the pantograph, would it not? Mr. Gilliam : He should have lowered the pantograph that was in contact with the wires, before he started on the roof to do any work. Mr. Duncan: Have you ever had any cases of any men re- ceiving shocks or being injured in handling the poles in pulling down the pantograph, in accordance with instructions'? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Garland also spoke of some man who was unable to qualify in the electric service because he could not climb to the top of the locomotive. What is the fact, Mr. Gilliam? Mr. Gilliam : The only case, that we have any record of, is one of the steam engineers who was pretty badly crippled ur with rheumatism, and when he came around at first and found that his duties required him to get on top of the locomotive he said he could not do it, so we held him out of service. After- wards he came around and demonstrated to the road foreman that he could, and he was assigned to a run. That is the only case that I know of. Mr. Duncan : Now, has the New Haven provided any safety devices to protect the engineers when they are called to go on the roof of the locomotive ? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, the safety chain is the device that should protect them, and will protect them. Mr. Duncan: And, the electric engineers are not required to handle that pantograph when it is charged with 11,000 volts? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. 652 Mr. Duncan : Now, what is your opinion, Mr. Gilliam, as to the advantage that electric service, the operation of electric lo- comotive or multiple unit trains afford, has, compared with the- operation of steam locomotives? Mr. Gilliam: Well, it is a much cleaner job, and I think it is not as — I don't just understand your question. Do you want me to repeat what these other gentlemen have repeated! Mr. Duncan: I don't care whether you repeat it or not; L want to get your opinion as to whether it is a better job, from any standpoint. Mr. Gilliam: These other men have spoken because they have had experience in both services. I am not an engineer;,, that is, I have never run on a steam engine, and I could not draw a comparison. Mr. Duncan : What has been your experience as to the dif- ference in the risk, incident to the operation of one of these electric locomotives, as compared with the risk incident to the operation of a steam locomotive? Mr. Gilliam: I should think it was very much safer on an. electric. The Chairman: Is the danger of collision just as great? Mr. Gilliam: The danger of collision is the same. Mr. Judson: And, of derailment? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: You are only referring to the operation of" the machine itself, and not to the dangers incident to the road, which are probably the same on the steam locomotive as on the electric locomotive? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Of course, the electric locomotive- hasn't any of the steam gauges or glasses, or anything except on the flash boilers. Mr. Duncan : That is all. Mr. Stone: Do you consider yourself qualified to draw a. comparison between the dangers of the two occupations, when you have never operated a steam locomotive ? Mr. Gilliam : No, sir. Mr. Stone : What is your voltage ? Mr. Gilliam : 11,000 volts on the A. C. only, overhead. Mr. Stone : Your engines are equipped for both alternating- and direct current, are they not? 653 Mr. Gilliam : Both ; yes, sir. Mr. Stone : And, as soon as you strike the Woodlawn yard you pick up the third rail and lower your trolley? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is the roof of your cab insulated so that there is no danger from a man being on the roof ? Mr. Gilliam: Insulated? No, sir, we do not want them insulated. Mr. Stone : How far is this overhead trolley wire from the roof of your cab? Mr. Gilliam : The height of the pantograph from the running rail, under normal conditions, or standard conditions, is 22 feet, and the roof is approximately twelve feet from the running rail ; that is ten feet from the top of the roof to the pantograph wire. Mr. Stone: Don't it often happen that it comes closer than that? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, under highway bridges it dips down. Mr. Stone: How close? Mr. Gilliam: The lowest we have is fifteen feet, six inches from the running rail. Mr. Stone : That would be how high above the roof? Mr. Gilliam: Twelve feet, from fifteen feet, six inches. Mr. Stone: If anything happened there, and if a man got on the roof of the cab, his head would be above the trolley? Mr. Gilliam: It would be to one side of it, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How far will this current arc across? Mr. Gilliam: 11,000 volts, according to tests, will jump across a space of about approximately half an inch. Mr. Stone : Haven 't you an order at the present time that the men shall not get closer than fourteen inches to the trolley? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : If it will only jump half an inch, why do you specify fourteen inches ? Mr. Gilliam : We want to be absolutely safe. Mr. Stone: How did you arrive at the happy factor of, fourteen? Mr. Gilliam : We think fourteen is beyond any chance of a man coming in contact with the wire, if he stays away that ^ar. 654 Mr. Stone : And thirteen and a half inches would be in the danger zone? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Then, it just happened that you arrived at four- teen! Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir, an arbitrary figure. Mr. Stone : How long a time were these men who went into the electric service in learning to operate? Mr. Gilliam : Well, they were allowed fifteen days to qual- ify, and if they failed, they were given an additional ten days, at the expense of the company. Mr. Stone: That is twenty-five days' time they were paid for; isn't that so? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: How many different types of electric locomo- tives have you? Mr. Gilliam: Well, we have three classes. The freight class is divided up in several experimental locomotives at the present time, and we have adopted a standard freight locomo- tive, and the rest of them will be according to that type. Mr. Stone : Is this first examination, such as we filed as an exhibit, sufficient for all your equipment in the electric service — the list of questions in the electric service, is it sufficient for all of your equipment? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it not the fact that you have eight different types of locomotives in passenger service — electric locomotives? Mr. Gilliam: Well, I don't know as you would call them dif- ferent types. All of them are of similar equipment, with dif- ferent arrangements. We have one side rod locomotive, that differs materially from the others. Mr. Stone: That is the point I want to bring out. There are eight different types. Mr. Gilliam : They differ in certain details, yes, sir. Mr. Stone : A man in the electric service must be familiar with all those types, must he not? Mr. Gilliam : He should not. Mr. Stone : You also, with your heavy train, couple two of" these locomotives together? 655 Mr. Gilliam: We do with the passenger locomotives. Mr. Stone: One engineer operates both! Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Does he have a helper on each of those en- .gines! Mr. Gilliam : He has a helper with him. Mr. Stone : But, when you put two of them together, there is no helper on the second! Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. Mr. Stone: Which engine then heats the train! Mr. Gilliam : Generally the forward one. Mr. Stone: It is possible for one engineer to operate all those engines! Mr. Gilliam: Very successfully, yes. Mr. Stone: Would it be possible for him to operate any more than that, if you choose to couple them together! Mr. Gilliam: Yes, ,sir. Mr. Stone : Then a train that would require two steam lo- comotives, it is possible to get it operated by one electric en- gineer with two electric locomotives! Mr. Gilliam: No, not a train that would require two stefvm •engines. Mr. Stone: Why do you put two electric locomotives on! Mr. Gilliam: For the reason that, in designing the passen- ger locomotives, it was found that a locomotive of a certain size could handle approximately 75 per cent, of our trains; there- fore, if we had engines of the larger size, capable of handling any train, it would mean that 75 per cent, of the trains would have engines 50 per cent, too large in size, and it was a very simple thing to double-head a train and operate it with one engineer, and it was deemed advisable to have the smaller Tinits. Mr. Stone: But, if you had a steam locomotive that was not capable of handling a passenger train, and you had to put on two locomotives, it would require the services of two engi- neers! Mr. Gilliam: If we had any that required two steam loco- motives,, it certainly would. Mr. Stone: Don't you double-head some of them on your road! 656 Mr. Gilliam: Certain trains require two locomotives. At the present time it is about 15 per cent. The rest of the trains can be handled with one locomotive. They run through from Stamford to New York. 'Mr. Judson: You are speaking of the electric engines now? Mr. Gilliam: Yes. Mr. Judson: I thought he asked you about the steam loco- motives. Mr. Gilliam: I beg your pardon. I cannot answer that question. Mr. Stone: From your knowledge of electricity and elec- trical equipment, do you believe it is possible for a man to qual- ify in three days? Mr. Gilliam : On the electric locomotives ? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Gilliam: Provided he has the other knowledge of the road and the rules and regulations and signals. Mr. Stone: Then, why does your company pay for twenty- five days? Mr. Gilliam: That is one of the liberal concessions of the New Haven Eoad. Mr. Stone: That is one of the "feather beds" that they have? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir; that is one of the "feather beds." The Chairman: Is that done to induce the steam engineers to go in the electric service? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. When thd question first came up that was just a certain number of days that were agreed upon between the company and the men. Mr. Stone : Is it not the fact it was also found necessary to extend it ten days more? Mr. Gilliam: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Was it always twenty-five days ? Mr. Gilliam : No, sir ; starting in with fifteen days, and the request for learning to qualify was made by the engineers. Mr. Stone: And, they found that the time wasn't long enough, tli,at some of them required the twenty-five days, did they not? Mr. Gilliam: Very few of them; a very small percentage. 657 Of the first number of men that were qualified, they all qualified within the specified fifteen days. Mr. Stone: Do you think there is any added danger with the high voltage carried on the New Haven? Mr. Gilliam: Not if the men carry out the instructions. Mr. Stone: If there is no danger, why are so many safety devices necessary on these engines? Mr. Gilliam: So many? Why, as far as I know, there is only one. : Mr. Stone : Does it ever fail? Mr. Gilliam: It never has failed yet. Mr. Stone: Haven't you had men badly burned on your road? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. We have had several cases of men being burned, up on top of th|eir locomotive, that failed to lower the pantograph or failed to use the safety chain. Mr. Stone : Have you been with the electric zone ever since its operation? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that the first classes of steam engineers had 30 days to qualify in, instead of 15? Mr. Gilliam : I don 't remember that. Mr. Stone: What is this efficiency report you have posted on your bulletin boards? Mr. Gilliam: Deficiency? Mr. Stone: Efficiency. Mr. Gilliam: That is a study we are making of the opera- tion of locomotive engineers. Mr. Stone: What is the intent of it? Mr. Gilliam : The intent is to see whether an engineer, know- ing that his record is being examined, improves his position as to the efficiency of operation. Mr. Stone: How is efficiency graded? Mr. Gilliam: How is it graded? I don't quite understand the question. Mr. Stone : How do you arrive at the efficiency of operation, —how is it graded? Mr. Gilliam : Graded on the consumption of current per Watt hour, per ton mile. 658 Mr. Stone: Ts the time he makes taken into consideration as a factor? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir, everything is considered and all the men are placed on an equal basis. Mr. Stone : How do you arrive at this, — do you have a record that records it? Mr. Gilliam: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it the same one that Mr. Hedley is inter- ested in, for the Interborough ! Mr. Gilliam : No, sir, ours is a different proposition. We have a slip made out, on each locomotive, of the current, of the Watt hour reading and, each day, each run of each engineer is computed and, at the end of the month, that is averaged up and he is computed on the three different classes of service he might be in. What I mean by that is, express service, local express service and strictly local service. Mr. Stone: It is averaged up? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, sir. It would not be fair to one man in local service making a whole lot of stops to be placed on the same basis as a man on an express run who did not have to stop. Mr. Stone : In regard to this 15 days ' instruction, is it not true, before you actually start in with those 15 days ' instructions, that the man who is trying to be instructed has three days pre- liminary? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Who pays for that? Mr. Gilliam: The company. Mr. Stone: What does that preliminary instruction consist of? Mr. Gilliam: The idea was for the man to come around and familiarize himself with the locomotive and get any advice that he might like to receive from the road foreman of engines. Mr. Stone: So that is paid in addition to the 15 days men- tioned before ? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is it harder to qualify for electric service on your road on account of the two currents? Mr. Gilliam : I should not think so. Mr. Stone: I think that is all. Mr. Duncan: In utilizing two electric locomotives you are 659 practically doing what you do when you utilize two multiple units? Mr. Gilliam * It is the same principle. Mr. Duncan : It is the same principle ? Mr. Gilliam: Yes. Mr. Duncan: It permits the operation of two electric loco- motives from the front locomotive? Mr. Gilliam: Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, as I understand it, the purpose of the New Haven in having the smaller type of engine or locomotive was in the interests of economy, so you would not have the high powered locomotive lying around without any use for it? Mr. Gilliam: That is the idea. Mr. Duncan : And, when it is necessary for you to use the higher powered locomotive, you simply put two of the units to- gether and it gives you the result you would have had if you had designed an engine of the larger power. Mr. Gilliam: Yes. Mr. Stone : Is there any increase in pay when you put those two locomotives together? Mr. Gillman : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: I understand an engineer in the second loco- motive would be useless, would he not? Mr. Gilliam : Yes, sir. The control is, as far as the master controller is concerned, cut out, and it is only operated from the front end, or the end that the engineer is working from. (Witness excused.) B. R. Pollock was called as a witness, and testified as fol- 3 > lows: Mr. Duncan: What is your name? Mr. Pollock: B. R. Pollock. Mr. Duncan: Your occupation? Mr. Pol] ock : General Superintendent, in charge of trans- portation, on the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Mr Duncan: Mr. Pollock, has the New Haven any other 660 electric operations than those that have been referred to by Mr, Gilliam in the electric zone between New York and Stamford? Mr. Pollock : Yes. In addition to what Mr. Gilliam referred to, we have electric service, about seven miles of double track, on the Nantasket Beach line, where we handle a large number of passengers during the summer months, but that is purely a sum- mer resort travel. Mr. Duncan: And, you operate the interurban car on it, as it is called? Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Not the multiple unit? Mr. Pollock : Not the multiple unit. Mr. Judson : That is, you operate it during the year or only during the summer months? Mr. Pollock : During the summer months only. Mr. Judson : A summer line ? Mr. Pollock: Yes. Mr. Duncan: From whom do you recruit the operators on those trains? Mr. Pollock : It has been the practice since that installation to use locomotive firemen. We select the firemen from a spare- board at the beginning of the season, and qualify those men the same as we would a locomotive engineer. Mr. Duncan: Now, have you any other electric operations that are under your jurisdiction? Mr. Pollock : Yes ; we have an electric line that operates the year round between Providence, Fall River and Bristol. Mr. Duncan: Single or double track? Mr. Pollock: Double track part of the way and single track part of the way. Mr. Duncan: What kind of electric trains do you use there? Mr. Pollock: We use the same character of train there as we do on the Nantasket Beach, excepting — Mr. Duncan: Have you any other? Mr. Pollock: Well, in both cases, in fact, the motors haul one, two, three and four trailers, but they are not a multiple unit. Mr. Duncan : In other words your head car is somewhat like- an electric bcomotive in that respect? 661 Mr. Pollock: Exactly. Mr. Duncan: Now, have you any other portion of the line on which you operate electric trains? Mr. Pollock: We have a line nine miles between Middle- town and Berlin, Connecticut, where we operate electric service the year round. And, the men there are taken from any rank we see fit. We have on that line, at the present time, men who were taken from the brakemen 's ranks and qualified to run these •cars. Mr. Duncan : And, what kind of service is that, multiple unit •or suburban type, which you speak of? Mr. Pollock: That is a multiple unit service, but the subui% l>an car equipped for multiple unit service. Mr. Duncan: That is similar to the multiple unit service you have in the Stamford District? Mr. Pollock : Well, not exactly. The construction Of the car is not similar. The construction of the car on that line is more on the order of the street railway car, excepting that it can be operated in multiple unit. The Chairman: Is it a single car or a number of cars .together? Mr. Pollock: One or two. The Chairman: It is not a train? Mr. Pollock : No, sir. I would not say positively about that, ■ whether there are more than two ; I know there are two at times. Mr. Shaw: But often one? Mr. Pollock: Sometimes one. Mr. Duncan: Now, have you ever recruited your motor- men, as you might say, on these various runs, from hostlers? Mr. Pollock : Yes, we have a line between Stamford and New Canaan, Connecticut, on which the electric locomotive, the multi- ple unit equipment, and also the single car, are operated, and one of our motormen on that line, who intermingles with the other men, was recruited from a hostler; he acted in that capac- ity in the Stamford engine house. Mr. Judson : You mean hostler in a railroad sense ? Mr. Pollock : Hostler of a steam locomotive. Mr. Duncan : What rates do you pay on the Nantasket and the Fall River lines that you are speaking of? 662 Mr. Pollock : On all lines where the standard locomotive rate is not paid, we pay $3.30 per day of. ten hours, and one tjentih of the regular daily rate per hour for all overtime. Mr. Duncan : You pay the flat rate of $3.30 for the ten hours' service ? Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Without any reference to the mileage? Mr. Pollock: Without any reference to the miles. Mr. Duncan: That is all. The Chairman: Mr. Stone. Cboss-Examination : Mr. Stone : On the Nantasket Beach line that you speak of,, what is the length of this line? Mr. Pollock : What is the nature of it ? Mr. Stone : What is the length or mileage of the Nantasket: Beach Line? Mr. Pollock: It is between six and eight miles. Mr. Stone : How many crews are employed there during the- summer ? ♦ Mr. Pollock: Four, I think. Mr. Stone : And, you pay them $3.30 for ten hours ? Mr. Pollock: For ten hours. Mr. Stone : What do you pay the conductors on those cars V Mr. Pollock: Standard rates. Mr. Stone : Standard passenger rates ? , Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : That is $4.20 a day? Mr. Pollock: $4.20 a day. Mr. Stone: With a guarantee of $125 a month? Mr. Pollock: Exactly. Mr. Stone: They receive just the same pay as the con- ductor running on your heavy express trains? Mr. Pollock: They do. The reason for that is that the conductors perform practically the same service on the Nan- tasket Beach, so far as the picking up of revenue is concerned, as they do on the main line. The Chairman : But they have not as many cars to take up from? 663 Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. The Chairman : On a train ? Mr. Pollock : Well, per man, they have. Mr. Stone: These qualified men that yon use there, is it not a fact that they have been qualified for promotion; these firemen that you use as motormen, have not they been qualified for promotion ? Mr. Pollock: They have not. Mr. Stone: They are not Qualified? Mr. Pollock : They have qualified for promotion in this elec- tric service, but not for a locomotive engineer. Mr. Stone: Do you not take the senior firemen who are ready for promotion for these places? Mr. Pollock: I think not. I believe this year they took firemen who stood on the spare board, and took them just as they stood on the spare board. Mr. Judson: On the what? Mr. Pollock: On the spare board; men who were without regular positions. Mr. Stone : Well, this year they were filled before this ques- tion came up and was before this Arbitration .Board, were they not? Mr. Pollock: I don't know that that had anything to do with it one way or another. Mr. Stone: I did not ask you whether it had anything ot do with it. I asked you whether or not it was not a fact they were filled before this was before this Board? Mr. Pollock: I don't know. Mr. Stone: In regard to your Middletown branch, how many runs have you there? Mr. Pollock : Three. Mr. Stone: What is the length of this branch? Mr. Pollock: About nine miles. Mr. Stone: How much of that is over steam track? Mr. Pollock : All of it was steam track, and there are steam engines operating over that branch at the present time, Mr. Stone: Well, when you use these motormen you put pilot conductors on with them at the standard rate, do you not? Mr. Pollock: No, sir. I beg your pardon. Will you ask that question again please? 664 Mr. Stone : In this electric service, is it not a fact that you put pilot conductors on there, at the standard rate, over the steam track? Mr. Pollock: We do not. Mr. Stone: You do not! Mr. Pollock : On some of the trains, the trains that the New Haven Company operates, there is a motorman and a conductor. On other trains which the trolley company operates, we do put a pilot on. Mr. Stone: And he is paid the regular passenger rate of $4.20 ? Mr. Pollock: I could not say as to that. Mr. Stone: On the ones that the New Haven operates you have standard conductors? Mr. Pollock: Standard conductors. Mr. Stone: At standard pay? Mr. Pollock: Standard pay. Mr. Stone : A single trolley car ? Mr. Pollock: In some cases, and in some cases there are two cars. Mr. Stone : You recognize the principle, however, so far as the conductor is concerned and pay him the standard wage? Mr. Pollock: We do. Mr. Stone : On this Providence, Fall River & Bristol branch — before leaving the Middletown branch, — you pay those motor- men $3.30 for nine hours instead of ten? Mr. Pollock: I think ten hours. Mr. Stone : The reason I notice the difference, is because the report I have is nine. Mr. Pollock: I would not say definitely on that, but my recollection is it is ten. Mr. Stone : On the Providence, Fall River & Bristol branch where are these men recruited from? Mr. Pollock: Well, some of these men are firemen, some are baggage masters. Mr. Stone: How many crews have you? Mr. Pollock: There are either 14 or 16 crews on that line — there are 17 crews on that line. Mr. Stone : What does the mileage of the runs average per day? 665 Mr. Pollock : 144 miles. Mr. Stone: Ten hours' work? Mr. Pollock : I understand it is ten hours ; that is my recol- lection. Mr. Stone: Over ten hours, overtime! Mr. Pollock : Yes. Mr. Stone: All these crew trips have standard conductors? Mr. Pollock: Standard conductors. Mr. Stone: Standard pay? Mr. Pollock : Of standard pay. Mr. Stone: There are two other branches that you do not speak of, but they are small; Burnside and Eockville electric ser- vice. These trolleys come in on your steam track on your Burn- side junction, and run nine miles to Vernon. Mr. Pollock: That is correct. Those trolleys come in on a steam line and operate on branch roads over the New Haven rails. Mr. Stone : Single cars ? Mr. Pollock: Single cars.. Mr. Stone : But you furnish four conductors for those four runs at $125 a month each, do you not? Mr. Pollock : Furnish a conductor pilot, on each train. Mr. Stone: On the standard passenger rate? Mr. Pollock : On the standard passenger rate. Mr. Duncan : Are you referring to the New Haven standard rate? Mr. Pollock: The New Haven rate. Mr. Stone : "With a guarantee of $125 a month? Mr. Morrissey: Is not the New Haven rate the standard rate over the entire territory? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Pollock: It is not standard; it is a rate that in some respects may be considered standard, but it is not standard. Mr. Stone : It is not the rate paid in the eastern territory? Mr. Pollock : The New Haven rate is not, in all respects, the same as the rate on other roads in New England territory. Mr. Eidlitz: That is what you meant when you made the statement before that it was a standard rate in some respects? Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. 666 Mr. Stone : But, the fact remains that the rate is $4.20 a day, does it not? Mr. Pollock: $4.20. Mr. Stone: With a guarantee of $125 a month? Mr. Pollock : Exactly. Mr. Stone: On the Norwich Branch these cars enter on the steam track at Tafts station and run fourteen miles to Center Village. You use conductors as pilots on all of these crews? Mr. Pollock: We do. Those cars are the regular trolley cars which operate over the New Haven rails under trackage rights, and we were furnishing a pilot, as those men are not qualified on the New Haven Boad. For that reason a pilot is furnished. The Chairman: I do not quite understand that, about fur- nishing a pilot. Is a pilot a conductor? Mr. Pollock : A man who is familiar with New Haven opera- tion and is a conductor, a New Haven conductor, understanding New Haven operation. On account of the other man not under- standing our rules, this man is put on to pilot them while on our rails. Mr. Stone : The fact remains, does it not, that you are oper- ating these trolley lines mixed in with steam service, with mo- torman who know nothing about their rights on the road at all? Mr. Pollock: Exactly. Mr. Stone : Simply depending on the pilot or conductor you put on? Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Yet these trolley cars have first class rights while on the track? Mr. Pollock: They do. Mr. Stone: They run as passenger trains and they are carded as such? Mr. Pollock: They are. Mr. Morrissey : How recently were the rates you have been speaking of, for conductors and trainmen, paid at the standard wage? Mr. Pollock: The wage that they are paid at the present time, the schedule, was made in May, 1910, as I recollect. Mr. Morrissey : That is a little over two years ago. Before that time they were paid a lesser rate? 667 Mr. Pollock: Conductors, you are speaking of! Mr. Morrissey: Yes, sir, conductors and trainmen. Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: What were the considerations that prompted you to change from the lower to the standard rate in t-fee payment of this class of employees? Mr. Pollock: There was no choice on our part; we were forced to. Mr. Morrissey: Well, didn't you make a settlement with your conductors and trainmen? Mr. Pollock: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: On this basis? Mr. Pollock: On the basis of the rate that is in effect at the present time. Mr. Stone : I would like to ask you again, in regard to those firemen on that Nantasket Beach run. Are you sure that those firemen that are running there are taken from the extra board? Mr. Pollock : That is what I have been told. Mr. Stone : My information is that they are the oldest fire- men on that division. Mr. Pollock: My information is that those men are taken frOm the spare board, in the order in which they stood on the board. Mr. Stone: This man you spoke of as a hostler who qual- ified, what did he do prior to that? Mr. Pollock: My understanding is that he took care df steam locomotives at Stamford. Mr. Stone : Before he was a hostler, what had been his du- ties in the service? Mr. Pollock: I don't know. Mr. Stone: Hadn't he been a locomotive engineer prior to that? Mr. Pollock: I could not answer that. Mr. Stone : That is all. Mr. Duncan : That is all. I will call Mr. Haff . 668 S. S. Hafp was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan: You are the Assistant Road Foreman of En- gines, on tile Long Island Railroad ? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Where are you stationed? -«,. Mr. Haff: At Jamaica. Mr. Duncan: How long have you occupied that position! Mr. Haff: About six years. Mr. Duncan : What was your occupation before that ? Mr. Haff: Locomotive engineer. Mr. Duncan: On what road! Mr. Haff : On the Long Island. Mr. Duncan: And, on what part of it? Mr. Haff: All divisions; I am familiar with all divisions. Mr. Duncan : As Road Foreman of Engines, what are your duties ? Mr. Haff : To supervise the work of the engineer, generally for economical results. Mr. Duncan: When you use the word "engineer," do you refer to both the locomotive engineer and your electric engineer ! Mr. Haff: We call them motormen. We have no electric engineers. Mr. Duncan : Do you refer to the motormen ? Mr. Haff : No. My work in connection with the motor ser- vice is to instruct the motormen and to supervise his work, to a certain extent. Mr. Duncan: Your jurisdiction extends over both the steam and electrie service! Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : What proportion of your service is electric and what proportion steam, approximately? Mr. Haff : I have about 70 engines and about 70 motor crews under my jurisdiction. Mr. Duncan: 70 engine crews? Mr. Haff: 70 engine crews and about 70 motor crews. Mr. Duncan: What type of electric power do you operate? Mr. Haff : Multiple unit. Mr. Duncan : You have no steam locomotives ? 669 Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Duncan : I suppose you have had an opportunity, from your experience as a steam engineer, and your experience in connection with the electric service and the instruction of the motormen, to observe the conditions under which the steam lo- comotive engineer works and the conditions under which the electric motorman works. Mr. Haff: I have. Mr. Duncan : Will you tell us very briefly, what, if any, ad- vantages the electric motormen enjoy that are not enjoyed by the steam engineers, for the purpose of advising the Board as to the difference in service? Mr. Haff : The motorman is relieved of a great many duties. Jle has no fireman to supervise and no water level or condition ■of water to keep in touch with ; he has no lubrication to watch ; ■does no oiling at all ; his work does not call for him to get up and down from his machine, from one end of the road to the other, which is different with the engineer. Mr. Duncan: He does not have to take on coal, either? Mr. Haff: He has no coal or water to look out for at all. Mr. Duncan: Does he have any boiler to look out for, for ~.the purpose of steam heating? Mr. Haff: Not in our service, no, sir. Mr. Duncan: The heating is electric? Mr. Haff: Electric. Mr. Duncan : Does he have to go to any ash pits ? Mr. Haff : No ash pit. Mr. Duncan : Where does he take his multiple unit train? Mr. Haff: In the majority of cases at the station platform, and if not at the station platform, from the yard, very near to the station platform. Mr. Duncan: But, in the majority of cases he gets it at the platform? Mr. Haff : I should say so, yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Does he have any preparatory service in con-> nection with it when he gets it at the platform? Mr. Haff: He simply sees that his switches are cut in— the necessary switches for operation are cut in — and tests his air brakes ; he sees that his train is connected together, which can be done from the head end of the motor car. 670 Mr. Duncan : Why can it be done from the head end '! Mr. Haff : By the operation of the controller from the heacT end, if the car on the rear end of the train operates, which can be seen by the inspector, it can be seen by a test if the whole train is connected together. Mr. Duncan : How long does it require for this preparatory service ? Mr. Haff: I would say five cars can be prepared in five minutes. Mr. Duncan : Where does the motorman leave his car when he reaches the end of the run! Mr. Haff : In about the same proportion of cases, at the sta- tion platform ; in the Brooklyn Terminal most of the trains are left at the station platform, and if otherwise, the yards are very- close to the terminal stations. Mr. Duncan : Now, if anything happens to the motor on one of these multiple unit cars, is it possible to cut that out and oper- ate the train without it ! Mr. Haff: Yes, sir, it frequently cuts itself out, so there. is nothing to do. Mr. Duncan: Automatic? Mr, Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : If it did not cut itself out is there any risk or danger incident to cutting it out! Mr. Haff: Absolutely none; no, sir. Mr. Duncan: What preparatory technical training is re- quired of a motorman to learn the operation of the motor, as- suming that he knows the signals on your road, and is familiar with the train rules. Mr. Haff: The time! Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Haff: In three days, from that to two weeks, at the outside. Mr. Duncan : How much time do you allow them '? Mr. Haff: Where we have changed terminals or changed power at terminals it has been done in three days ; and we only pay when the power is changed at that particular terminal. Mr. Duncan: And, you allow that with pay? Mr. Haff: With pay; yes, sir. 671 Mr. Duncan: Have you any firemen operating the multiple unit trains'? Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: Did you understand me to mean that yon had firemen on the train f Mr. Haff: I will answer that by saying that our motormen are all locomotive engineers. Mr. Duncan: Oh, you have taken them from the locomotive engineers ? .Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : From your experience, what would you say as to the difference in the risk of accident in steam and electric service, incident to the machine itself, without any reference to the accidents on the road. Mr. Haff: Very much less in the electric service. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Haff: Well, there are no steam pipes which possibly may burst from different causes ; there is no scalding water to come in contact with, and it is not necessary to put the head out from the side of the cab to operate, as it is often, in the steam service ; and, generally speaking, there are a great many things less dangerous in the electric motor service than in the steam service. Mr. Duncan: What voltage do you use, Mr. Haff? Mr. Haff: 650. Mr. Duncan: In the motor itself? Mr. Haff : In the motor itself ; yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: How much! voltage passes through the con- troller that is operated by the motorman? Mr. Haff : About 14 volts is the limit. Mr. Duncan: That is, there are only 14 volts pass through the controller at the head end of the car where the motorman is stationed? Mr. Haff: That is correct. Mr. Duncan: And, the 600 volts pass directly to the motor itself? Mr. Haff: That is correct. Mr. Dtmcan: Without passing through the controller? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Where is the motor ! Mr. Haff: The motor is fastened to the truck underneath the car. Mr. Duncan: Do the electric rnotormen maintain their sen- iority rights in steam service? Mr. Haff: They do. Mr. Duncan: So that they have the opportunity to go back to the steam service! Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: What has been your experience as to their going back to the steam service? Mr. Haff : Well, it shows that the electric service is prefera- ble, so far as the men are concerned. We have only two men with any great seniority who have ever been in the electric ser- vice and left it, so far. Mr. Duncan: Only two? Mr. Haff: Only two. Mr. Judson: How many men have you? Mr. Haff: We have 125 qualified rnotormen and, including the rnotormen, we have about 278 engineers all told. Mr. Judson: That is including the steam engines? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: What rates of pay prevail in your electric service ? Mr. Haff : $4.75, ten hours, and 130 miles. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Mr. Judson: The only difference there, for the steam ser- vice, is in the number of miles? Mr. Haff: 30 miles difference. Mr. Judson: The same pay? Mr. Haff : A greater pay per day for ten hours. Steam ser- vice pays $4.15 for ten hours and 100 miles, and electric pays $4.75 for ten hours. Ckoss-Examination : Mr. Stone : Are you sure about there being 30 miles differ- ential between steam and electric service on the Long Island? Mr. Haff: According to the agreement, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Well, one gets $4.75 and the other $4.15? 673 Mr. Haff: Correct. Mr. Stone : You stated your duties were to look after the engineers ? Mr. Haff : Part of them. Mr. Stone: Is it not also part of the road foreman's duty to look after the engine itself? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir, I neglected to put tb|at in Mr. Stone: Where did you get your experience in electric service ? Mr. Haff: With the Long Island. Mr. Stone: How long did it take you! Mr. Haff: About three days. I was riding around before T took hold. Mr. Stone: You had no train before that? Mr. Haff: None at all. Mr. Stone : Did you consider yourself qualified in three clays to instruct others? Mr. Haff: Possibly not as efficiently as I could at the pres- ent time. Mr. Stone: How many steam locomotives has the Long Island ? Mr. Haff: All together? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Haff: We have 140 in service. Mr. Stone: They are all practically confined to one or two districts; they are not in the western district are they? Mr. Haff: They run over all districts with one exception, the Long Beach Branch and the Hempstead Branch; these two districts together amount to about nine miles. Mr. Stone : Do any of your trains run into the Pennsyl- vania Station uptown, New York? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir; a great many of our trains. Mr. Stone: Or any of your steam locomotives run in there? Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Is not your motorman required to report thirty minutes before leaving time? Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Eeports on time ? Mr. Haff: In sufficient time to prepare his train. 674 Mr. Stone: What is sufficient time? Mr. Haff: It varies with the length of the train. You can go through five cars in about half the time you go through ten. Mr. Stone: There is no requirement about them daily be- ing required to report thirty minutes before time? Mr. Haff: Not on the Long Island, sir. Mr. Stone : Can a man gp through a train, test it and test the brakes and inspect the train in five minutes f Mr. Haff: He can be ready when the maximum air pres- sure is pumped up, yes, sir. I will say five minutes for five 8 cars, and feel safe in saying it. Mr. Stone: You have a high speed, have you not, express service ? Mr. Haff: Not in the electric. You mean by a high speed, pressure ? Mr. Stone: No; I mean a high speed train service. What I mean is, you run express train service out of the Pennsyl- vania station, do you not? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : You state that the engineer in steam has to put Ms head out of the side window to see. Does he not have to do that in the multiple unit train ? Mr. Haff: Very rarely. Mr. Stone: He does sometimes though, does he not? Mr. Haff: In the case of a storm, at a station it might be necessary for him to scrape the sleet off the window, if any had accumulated. Mr. Stone : Running between stations can he always see through ? Mr. Haff: I have never seen it necessary to put the head out of the window. The Chairman: Is that very dangerous, putting the head out of the window? Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Stone: The clearance is very close, in many cases? Mr. Haff : Only mail trains that may be set for the train to take the mail in passing. The Chairman: Why do you make that distinction? Mr. Haff: Well, we recently had one engineer lose his eye- sight by having his head out of the window. 675 Mr. Duncan: What service was he in? Mr. Haff: Steam service, sir. Mr. Stone: Does not your present agreement with the en- gineers read that engineers and motormen and firemen will re- port thirty minutes hef ore time to leave ? Mr. Haff: I think not. I think there is no specified time in the agreement to my knowledge. Mr. Stone : You state, he tests his train from the head end! Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In case the inspector would not catch the fact that the train did not work clear through, the engineer would be held responsible, would he not? Mr. Haff: Mechanically responsible? Mr. Stone: No, responsible for the fact that he was going out with his train not working clear through. Mr. Haff: If the inspector told him that the rear car was operating, he would be free from responsibility. Mr. Stone : Suppose there was a difference in the statement between the two men, how would you verify it? Mr. Haff: We generally take the motorman's statement on the Long Island. Mr. Stone : How did you happen to be promoted to this ser- vice over the older men there in service ? Mr. Haff: I can't answer that, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all, Mr. Duncan. Mr. Morrissey: I understand you to say that, in a compari- son of the duties as between electric and steam, the electric is easier, and one of the reasons given is that the electric engi- neer has no fireman to supervise. Is that correct? Mr. Haff: I made that statement, yes. Mr. Morrissey: Is it a difficult matter to supervise a fire- man? Mr. Haff: Depending on his age of service. If he be a green man, yes. Mr. Morrissey : Well, let us speak of the qualified fireman. Mr. Haff : The engineer is held responsible for him. Mr. Morrissey : As a rule, are not experienced and qualified firemen able to attend to all of their own duties? Mr. Haff: As a rule. 676 Mr. Morrivssey: And, do they not give assistance to the engineer in the performance of his duties! Mr Haff : Very slight, if any. Mr. Morrissey : Do they help him check signals ! Mr. Haff: It is customary; it is the fireman's duty to check signals. Mr. Morrissey: Then the engineer of a multiple unit train has not the assistance of the firemen in that respect? Mr. Haff : He has not. Mr. Morrissey: Do you consider that the item of getting up and down from an engine is a serious question? Mr. Haff: It is physical labor, it is tiresome when neces- sary. Mr. Morrissey: Did you hear Engineer Wood of the New York Central testify here the other dav ? Mr. Haff : I did not. Mr. Morrissey: I was going to ask, if you did, if yon could tell me how many times he got up and down on his engine be- tween Syracuse and Albany. Mr. Haff: I did not hear it. Mr. Morrissey : Did you give instructions to locomotive engineers in other matters besides the electric service ? Mr. Haff: On the road, when necessary. Mr. Morrissev: Have vou anv superheaters on vour road? Mr. Haff: No, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Supposing your road put a number of super- heaters on, would the engineers on your line require some in- structions "? Mr. Haff: I am not familiar enough to answer that ques- tion. Mr. Morrissey: Do your steam locomotives have what I un- derstand is termed the Walschert movement ? Mr. Haff: No, sir. . Mr. Morrissey : If the Walschert movement was introduced on your road, would the engineers require instruction from the company ? Mr. Haff : I think not, though we have done it. Mr. Morrissey: That is all. Mr. Judson: How long are the electric lines on the Long Island ? 677 Mr. Haff: Why, we have altogether about 65 route miles: that means about 153 electrified miles of single track. Mr. Judson : How long is any one line ? Mr. Haff: Twenty-four miles is the longest run. Mr. Judson : It is essentially a suburban service ? Mr. Haff: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: You don't run them on through trains? Mr. Haff: Some of our trains run around a loop forty miles in length, from New York back, without turning, and that is forty miles altogether. Mr. Judson: That is all. Mr. Stone: That is all. The Chairman: We will adjourn until 2:30 o'clock this -afternoon. (Whereupon, at 12:45 P. M., a recess was taken to 2:?>0 P. M.) AFTER REOESS. Mr. Duncan : If your Honors please, we have two more ex- hibits, Nos. 116 and 117, that we would like to add to the list -of exhibits referred to by Mr. Worthington. I thought the Board might temporarily, at any rate, place them with the others. The Chairman.: The Board has unanimously agreed to the appointment, as statistician, to serve in conjunction with the Secretary, of Professor Frank H. Dixon, of Dartmouth College, and Chief Statistician of the Bureau of Railway Economics; also thiat of Dr. Frank Julian Warne, expert of the U. S. Cen- sus Bureau. Mr. Duncan: The other day, Dr. Van Hise asked for some information that was not contained in the exhibits, and we have had it prepared by the Bureau of Railway Economics. That is the first copy. The second copy has gone to the printers, but we will have it within the next few days. I thought you would like to see it in the meanwhile. If we have omitted from that any information you would like to have secured, we will be glad to supplement it. Mr. Van Hise : Thank you. I will look it over carefully and let you know to-morrow. 678 Mr. Duncan: I might add that the purpose of these two exhibits, Nos. 116 and 117, is to bring out the proportion that goes to labor; that is, the proportion of the operating revenues that are expended today in the various items required, showing the large amount that goes to labor. Our next witness is Mr. Alexander. John R. Alexander was called as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan: Where do you live, Mr. Alexander? Mr. Alexander: Altoona, Pa. Mr. Duncan: You are connected with the Pennsylvania Lines, East? Mr. Alexander : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: In what capacity! Mr. Alexander : As Chief Road Foreman of Engines. Mr. Duncan: On what division? Mr. Alexander : Eastern Pennsylvania Division. Mr. Duncan: Where are you located? Mr. Alexander : At Altoona, Pa. Mr. Duncan: How long have you been Road Foreman of . Engines of the Eastern Division ? Mr. Alexander: About six years. Mr. Duncan : What was your occupation prior to that time ? Mr. Alexander : For about twelve years, as Chief Air Brake and Steam Heat Inspector. Previous to that time, as locomotive engineer, since 1874. Mr. Duncan : From 1874, up to about 1890, you were a loco- motive engineer? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Imuran: And, from that time on, you have been on- rjaged as an Inspector of air brake and steam heat, and recently as Road Foreman of Engines? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: What are your duties as Road Foreman of Engines ? 679 Mr. Alexander: To do such special work as is assigned to me by the Superintendent of Motive Power, in following up the economical operation of the locomotives, and to some extent, looking after the distribution of locomotive and repairs to loco- motives. Mr. Duncan : Do you have anything to do with specially in- vestigating the condition of locomotives on your line? Mr. Alexander: Only in a general way; not as a division proposition ; but, in whatever way the Superintendent of Motive Power may be interested. Mr. Duncan : Do your duties require you to be on locomotives much of the time? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Do they require you to operate the locomo- tives? Mr. Alexander: Not as a regular engineman, but for the ■ sake of obtaining the desired information, we have the privilege -of handling the locomotive. Mr. Duncan: That is, in order to test them out? Mr. Alexander: Yes, in order to prove out whether such and such conditions are practical or not. Mr. Duncan : And, your duties require you to actually oper- ate engines for that purpose? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: And, I suppose that, by reason of this service, you are familiar with the types of engines that are in use on -the Pennsylvania Railroad, on the division, at least, that you are -operating on? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : And, with the size of engines and the power? Mr. Alexander : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: Are you familiar with the duties that are re- quired of the engineer in the operation of an engine? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : That is, his duties at the present time as com- pared with his duties in the last five or six years? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Or eight or ten years ? Mr. Alexander : Yes, sir. 680 Mr. Duncan: Has there been, or do the engines that are in use on your railroad at the present time, require any greater physical effort to operate than the engines that were in use say two or three years ago? Mr. Alexander : They do not. Mr. Duncan: "What is the fact as to whether it is more or less at the present time? Mr. Alexander : Within the last two or three years I see little or no difference, with the exception that the new types of engines of the same class are coming out, with still more automatic de- vices, which, to a certain extent, reduces the physical labor of the engineman. I refer to such devices as the automatic grease lubricators for driving boxes, which cut a very small figure in the duties of the engineer; but, within the last three or four years there is no radical change at all. If you mean in a great many years, there is considerable change. Mr. Duncan : What do you mean by a great many years ? Mr. Alexander : 10, 15 or 20 years. The entire trend in that time has been less physical labor. Mr. Duncan : That is, the trend during the last 8 or 10 years has been to reduce the physical labor incident to the operation of the engine ? Mr. Alexander: Yes. Mr. Duncan : What is that due to ? Mr. Alexander : Due to the introduction of different devices. One of them is the type of lubrication for red grease cups, as we call them, where they are used to fill the cups. And, they have been relieved of underneath inspection, generally, and that re- duces the labor of enginemen very considerably^ Mr. Duncan: What is the underneath inspection? Mr. Alexander : Between the frames or under the boiler, or between the rails. Mr. Duncan : Who does that now ? Mr. Alexander: The engine house pepole; the engine house inspectors. Mr. Duncan : Regularly employed for that service ? Mr. Alexander : Yes. Mr. Duncan: What other duties have they been relieved of during that period! Mr. Alexander: In a general way that is about all, with 681 the exception that while in service on the road, I consider the engineman is relieved of some duties, in case of breakdown, on account of the larger type of engine being so large that he is unable to handle broken parts and it is a question of getting as- sistance to help out in cases of that kind. Mr. Duncan : What, are there any other duties the engineers have been relieved of during the period you mention ? You have mentioned inspection and filling of grease cups. Mr. Alexander : I cannot think of any other physical duties that he may be relieved of. In my opinion; he has been relieved of some responsibilities. Mr. Duncan : In what way ? Mr. Alexander : On a two or more track road operating under the interlocking switches and automatic signals, enginemen have been relieved of computing time for running ahead of superior class trains, and they now are permitted under the rules to run by the block indications, irrespective of the time of following trains. They are relieved of Mr. Duncan : What do you mean by relieved of the dujy of computing time? Mr. Alexander: Before that practice was in operation, the engineman and conductor had to carefully figure out the amount of time it required to run from one siding or passing point to another, and in case of a train following having schedule figures, they had to be very sure they had sufficient time to haul whatever kind of train they were hauling to that point and get in the clear in the required amount of time ; and with the introduction of the block signals, they now take the block and the train despatcher and block operators take care of the following trains, and they run until they get a signal to get in on the siding, and as they do not have to stop their trains, as a rule, so as to do that, we figure that is less work and less responsibility. We also made a very restricted use, of what is known in railroad service, as Article 31, which required engine men to stop their train at a block and go to the tower, and the conductor and engineman would sign 1 for orders that would give them the right to run in respect to the following trains, where now, they use an order termed a " 19 " order, which does not require their signature, but, they take the block indication as their authority to proceed. 682 Mr. Duncan : In other words, to the extent that the automatic block signal has been installed, to that extent the responsibility in the direction you speak of has been decreased I ■Mr. Alexander: The responsibility and labor involved in handling trains. Mr. Duncan : Has there been any decrease in responsibility, in your judgment, on any other account? Mr. Alexander : I did mention, I believe, the underneath in- spection. No, I cannot think of any other. Mr. Duncan : For instance, fyave many of the grades on your road been eliminated? Mr. Alexander: Well, that would be covered either as a question of risk or of responsibility. In the evolution of train operation there are a number of things that may be termed responsibilities or risks in which enginemen hjave changed their work very considerably. To illustrate, I might try to enumerate some of them. For instance, I believe that the fact that all trains, both passenger and freight, are handled now, with 100 per cent, automatic couplers and 100 per cent, air brakes, with a minimum of 85 per cent, of air brakes, make it a safer propo- sition and less risk in handling trains, and the same as I said before, extends to the block signals and interlocking plants which are at all terminals on the larger lines; and the heavier locomotive is a safer proposition to the engineman. Mr. Duncan: Why? Mr. Alexander: By reason of the engine standing up for more punishment in case of any kind of an accident, it is found that the engineman is less frequently injured on heavy locomo- tives than he was on the older type and lighter locomotive. I be- lieve the increased supervision and discipline that is now prac- ticed on a railroad surrounds the engineman with a more desira- ble class of employees generally, which makes it a better propo- sition, from the engineman 's standpoint. Mr. Judson: I don't quite understand that statement. You said the engine is liable to more punishment? Mr. Alexander: My personal view of the matter is, if an engine meets with an accident, such as a derailment, or possibly coming into collision with some standing car or something, that the engine will not receive as much damage as a smaller engine 683 would; and it is quite common to see an engine injure other cars badly, but with little or no damage to itself, on account of its massive proportions. On our lines, I consider the engine-, man's duties as being reduced very materially by the large in- crease in subways' that we have and island platforms at sta- tions, which permit trains running in the opposite direction to passenger trains, to pass without any regard as to whether that train may be standing at the station receiving or discharging passengers. That used to be one of the very serious conditions an engineer had to meet. He had to keep a sharp lookout for all passenger trains, and stop his train before passing a station of that kind, and the more of those stations that there are, the less risk of that kind. I think the application of the Klinger water gauge is an additional advantage. Mr. Duncan: Of what! Mr. Alexander : The Klinger water gauge, we call it, and the bull's eye type of lubricator applied to engines is certainly an advantage to the engineman, from a safety standpoint. Mr. Duncan : In what way ? Mr. Alexander: A few years ago, engines were equipped with water gauges and lubricators; we had what they called a tubular glass, a glass about half an inch to three-quarters of an inch in diameter, and the glass possibly an eighth of an inch thick. It was a frequent occurrence for that glass to break un- der pressure, and sometimes injure the engineman or fireman wh)o were in the cab. The Klinger gauge is a design of glass that has been especially constructed to withstand pressure and heat and no records, I believe, can be shown that these Klinger gauges break and fly out. They break and crack and remain in their place possibly, but they never fly out. I never heard of one flying out and hurting anybody or flying out and leaving the cage in which it is contained. The same is true of what is known as the lubricators; they used to hlave small tubular glasses, and now they have a glass very similar to the Klinger gauge. It is about half an inch thick and is designed especially, to stand the pressure and the heat. Mr. Duncan : In your opinion does it take any greater skill to operate the engines that are in service on your road to-day than it did to operate th,e engines in service a couple of years ago! 684 Mr. Alexander: Xo, sir; they are practically the same en- gine. Mr. Duncan: There has been no increase in that direction? Mr. Alexander : No, sir. Mr. Duncan: There has been no increase in the weight of. rails on your division in the last two or three years? Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Ckoss-Examination : Mr. Stone: Mr. Alexander, when did you quit running an engine? In what year? Mr. Alexander: Regularly employed in 1890. Mr. Stone: Have not run regularly since? Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Did I understand you to say that when you were- out on the road that you were actually operating these engines yourself ? Mr. Alexander : At times ; yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Are you held responsible for the engine when you are operating it? Mr. Alexander: I will assume the responsibility if T oper- ate it, yes. Tbje Superintendent will take that responsibility. Mr. Stone : Have you the authority to relieve an engineer between terminals and assume the authority? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You have? Mr. Alexander : If I assume the authority, I have. Mr. Stone: When you take one of these engines, do you inform the engineer that you assume the responsibility and that he is relieved? Mr. Alexander : I never knew that conversation to pass be- tween us. Mr. Stone: Then without notice would not the engineer be held responsible? Mr. Alexander : No, sir ; if I make a mistake I will assume responsibility. Mr. Stone: Does the Despatcher have any notice that you have assumed responsibility? 685 Mr. Alexander : No, sir. Mr. Stone : You state that these engines have been equip- ped with automatic devices that relieve the engineer of re- sponsibility? Mr. Alexander: To that extent, yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Does not it require more knowledge to look after these automatic devices? Mr. Alexander : No, sir ; not after he is properly instructed, The knowledge is given to him by well informed instructors, and it is no task at all to be instructed in these things; they are, in a sense, automatic. Mr. Stone : He has to look after them and see that they work properly, does he not? Mr. Alexander : Either he or the fireman, yes ; that is what he is there for. Mr. Stone : In case anything goes wrong with one of these .automatic devices, he has to know how to report, does he not? Mr. Alexander : Yes, sir ; he will report it as being in a de- fective condition. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that as to all these new devices you equip your engines with, that men have to lose time to be : instructed on them? Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Stone : They are paid for the necessary time lost while being instructed? Mr. Alexander: No, sir; not that I know of; they are not paid. They do not lose any time. On all our divisions we have suitable instruction plants located at the different terminals, where the men have the opportunity, without the loss of time, to receive any information or instruction that they may desire. Mr. Stone : They have to get these instructions on their own time, though? Mr. Alexander: It is not on their own time; it is at their pleasure ; between trips. Mr. Stone: Then, do I understand that you put the learn- ing of all these automatic devices as a pleasure, instead of a duty? Mr. Alexander: It is a requirement, to be well informed •on all these devices. 686 Mr. Stone : You stated the engineer had been relieved from filling the grease cups. Is he not required to know that the grease cups are full and the plungers screwed down? Mr. Alexander: He is required to adjust the plungers and place the grease against the journal. Mr. Stone : Is not that as much labor as the filling of the oil cups with oil? Mr. Alexander: It is no more labor, and, if anything, it is; less, for the reason he does not handle the material. Mr. Stone: You say engineers are not required to inspect", engines in the pit. What made the change? Mr. Alexander: Largely the pooling system of handling locomotives. And, the large number of locomotives that are in service on a great many divisions makes it impossible to pro- vide engine house room, for all the locomotives, so that they are standing out on house tracks. It is a convenience to the: company, as well as to the men. Mr. Stone : Well, is it not a fact Mr. Judson: What do you mean by "pooling system," as- applying to locomotives? Mr. Alexander: As I have heard it spoken of here, the first in and first out system, regarding men, is the same handed over to engines. Engines come in and go out, in order ; they have no regular men and regular hour assigned for going out. An en- gine comes on an inspection pit track, the engineer is relieved, and the engine house people do all they can to turn the engine- out on a known track, called the storage track, and the en- gineer gets the engine there. Mr. Judson: So, you use the term now, as applied to en- gines and not engineers? Mr. Alexander: The engine, in this case. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact the engines and engineers are both pooled, but the numbers are often not the same. Mr. Alexander: The numbers of — Mr. Stone : Engineers and engines are not always the same f Mr. Alexander: No, sir; they are not always the same. Mr. Stone: If anything should happen to an engine, she would be taken out of the pool service and, possibly, none sub- stituted, in place, simply reducing the number of your pool? 687 Mr. Alexander: We have the necessary number of engines to place in the pool to keep the pool engines to the required number. Mr. Stone : Do you fill your grease cups at all terminals on the line east? Mr. Alexander: Except at yard terminals, or terminals where there are less than 30 engines in 24 hours handled, which brings it down to a very few small terminals. Mr. Stone: You spoke of the fact that the Pennsylvania Lines had a two or more track road and the engineer does not have to compute time. Do you mean by that, it is not necessary for him to know the time of trains'? Mr. Alexander : As a railroad man, it is necessary for him to be well informed as to the time of trains, but if he did know the time of trains and got a proper signal to proceed he would go without regard to the time of trains. Mr. Stone : Then, do I understand you to make the state- ment, that where there are block signals, that the engineers do not have to compute time! Mr. Alexander : I said that, sir, wherever the rule is in opera- tion, that governs that practice on block signal tracks. That means on the Pennsylvania Eailroad on most all main line sta- tions. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, I would just like to offer as an exhibit, this new circular that has been issued by the Pennsyl- vania ; a new General Order, which has come out since we have been in session, showing that men do have to compute time be- tween block signals. (The paper received and marked Engineers* Exhibit No. 80.) Mr. Alexander : I would like to make an explanation of that card, which I think I recognize. That is not a question of run- ning ahead of the scheduled trains. That is a card of informa- tion in regard to speed restrictions and it has not anything to do with running ahead of a scheduled train. Mr. Stone: He has compute time, does he not? Mr. Alexander: Not in regard to the following train. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the big engines being so much safer. Is it not a fact that the moment one of those large en- gines leaves the rail, she almost invariably turns over? GS8 Mr. Alexander : Xo, sir. Mr. Stone: It is not? Mr. Alexander: It is not; not in my experience. Mr. Stone : Well, have yon had experience with the big modern engine? Mr. Alexander: I have. Mi". Stone: Do they stand upright the same as the smaller engines used to < Mr. Alexander : In my judgment, under the same conditions^ better. ] do not mean that no engine, big or little, would not possibly under certain conditions turn over, but under the same conditions, (he large engine is safer than the smaller. Mr. Morrissey : Does an engine leaving the rail have any particular rule of conduct? Mr. Alexander: I wish they had. We would soon all get on to it. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact the centre of gravity is higher f Mr. Alexander : It is built with a proper proportion to the centre of gravity, and the result of that is, being heavier, they will stay down on their feet, as we call it, with a greater degree of certainty than a smaller engine. Mr. Stone : How can you apportion the gravity when the width of the gauge is the same for all engines? Mr. Alexander : I am not here to discuss technical ques- tions; I am here to tell you, as fairly as I can, the results of my observation and my experience. Mr. Stone: What is the largest boiler shells you have on your division? Mr. Alexander: Between 80 and 90 inch. Mr. Stone: What is the gauge of track? Mr. Alexander: 4 feet 8y 2 . Mr. Stone : Then you have got boilers now much larger in diameter than the width of your track? Mr. Alexander: The width of the rails! Mr. Stone : The width of the rail, I mean. Mr. Alexander: Yes. Mr. Stone: The width of gauge? Mr. Alexander: Yes. Mr. Stone: When you were running a locomotive, did you have the telephone system of orders on the line ? C89 Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Stone: You have to-day, have you not? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is not the engineer required to get orders, by telephone, now? Mr. Alexander: At some points, single line places and places of that kind. Mr. Judson: What kind of places? Mr. Alexander: Single line and places where these otlier rules we were talking about, do not apply. Mr. Stone: Do they not have it at a number of block sig- nals, where it is not a single line? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you not think this has increased the duty of the locomotive engineer? Mr. Alexander : No, sir. Mr. Stone: An engineer going through a number of these yards light and having to get orders, who looks after the en- gine? Mr. Alexander : Kindly give that again ; I am not quite straight on it. Mr. Stone : An engineer going through a yard, light, or just his own engine, having to get orders by telephone, who looks after the engine? Mr. Alexander: If it is necessary to leave the engine, he will leave it in charge of the fireman. Mr. Stone : Then, as an experienced man, do you not think that the danger has increased with the larger power? Mr. Alexander : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Did you not sign a report to the General Man- ager stating that, at times, the track was obscured, for a mile? Mr. Alexander: No. sir. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask you Mr. Alexander, if that is your signature (handing paper to Mr. Alexander). ' Mr. Alexander : Yes, sir. I do not think you will find that I said in there, anywhere, that the track was obscured for a mile. I identify this, sir, as a report of a majority and a minority report. The minority part of the report may have said so. The report to which we subscribed our approval, I 690 do not think does. This part of the letter is just introducing the other two reports. Mr. Stone: Do you always keep in touch with the special instructions issued from time to time, so that you could safely operate any of these engines, if called upon? Mr. Alexander: As a representative of the Superintendent of Motive Power, it is not necessary that I keep in touch with every detail, of every division. If I choose to do, or am re- quired to do any special duty on any division, it is my duty to hecome familiar With any rules or regulations that will cover that particular work. Mr. Stone : Do you claim that the 19 Order does not require as careful consideration as the 31 Order? Mr. Alexander : Every bit, sir. Mr. Stone: Then, in what way has the change from the 31 Order to the 19 Order, lessened the responsibility of the engi- neer. Mr. Alexander : I doubt if I said the responsibility, so much as the responsibility of getting off his engine and going to the tower, and the physical work that might be involved in seeking for that order, if we wanted to call it that, and returning to the engine and started up the train. With the 19 Order you very frequently can act on a 19 Order, without stopping a train; you cannot do that, with a 31 Order. Mr. Stone : Do you not think that going to the telephone, that is now required of the engineer more than ever, balances that? Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Stone : In your day of running, did you sign for general or'Iers each time, before getting them? Mr. Alexander : In the early period, there was no such thing as that; at the later period, there was. Mr. Stone: In your judgment, as a practical man, has the heavier train load increased the responsibility of the engineer? Mr. Alexander : Not if you speak within the time limit that has been spoken of here, the last few years ; no, sir. Mr. Stone: Has not there been any increase in tonnage, in the last few years ? Mr. Alexander: A very small increase. 691 Mr. Stone: Who is held responsible for speed of trains on the Pennsylvania Road? Mr. Alexander : The conductor and engineman. Mr. Stone: Both, the same? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : I do not believe I have anything more to ask him, Mr. Duncan. Re-Dikect Examination: Mr. Duncan: What do you mean by a 19 Order and a 31 Order? Will you explain that to the Board? Mr. Alexander: The only difference in effect, in the 19 Order and the 31 Order, is, to my mind, the manner in which it is delivered to the engineman and conductor. The 31 Order, under the older days of running, — to make sure that the train despatcher and everybody was protected in the delivering of the order, — they required the signature of the engineer and the conductor. With the block signal system and the safety that is surrounded by such an operation, they have decided, — wisely, — that they can dispense with the engineer's signature, and it is the same contents of an order then to act on, possibly, but Ihey do not require an engineer and conductor to sign it. No other difference, as I can see it. Mr. Stone : Do they not have the 19 Order, on lots of roads, where they have no block signals? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: The 19 Order, the engineer and conductor are not required to sign? Mr. Alexander: No, sir. Mr. Duncan: The 31 Order, they are required to sign? Mr. Alexander: Yes, sir. (Witness excused.) 692 W. W. Atterbury was called as a witness and testified as - - follows : Mr. Duncan : What are your relations with the Pennsylvania Railroad! Mr. Atterbury: Vice-president, in charge of operations of the Pennsylvania Lines, East. Mr. Judson: East of Pittsburgh? Mr. Atterbury : East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Mr. Duncan : If your Honors please, Mr. Atterbury has sta- tistics that you might want to refer to, during the course of his testimony. We are not offering this in evidence, but simply giving it to you for the purpose of referring to the statistics to wh|ich he may call attention. Mr. Atterbury: I might say, gentlemen, before I go into a- brief discussion of the statement of the Pennsylvania, that there have been several questions asked by some of the Arbitrators tbat I have made a memorandum of, I thought would interest them. For instance, Mr. Morrissey raised the question as to how the tonnage rating was arrived at. Now, speaking for the Penn- sylvania Railroad, we have a dynamometer car which we run over each division with each type of locomotive, and over the ruling grade, maintaining a speed of ten miles an hour. That establishes the tonnage rating, not in flat tons, but, in what we call adjusted tons. The resistance of the train is due to two things: It is due to the elevation of the load; that is, the re- sistance of gravity — overcoming the resistance of gravity, and overcoming the resistance of friction, that is, the journal fric- tion. Now, when that tonnage rating is established for each di- vision, for each locomotive, we also have a factor, so-called, by which we reduce that, in accordance with the reduction of tem- perature; so that, automatically, practically, with reduction in temperature below 40 degrees, the tonnage rating falls, until we get down below, say, about 20 degrees below zero, which is rather extreme with us, and we will run practically about 50 per cent, of the tonnage rating. That situation may occur ; that is, a reduction in the temperature may occur out on the line, in 693 which event the despatcher advises them to cut off and put away the cars. Mr. Stone raised some question about color blindness. I simply want to say that color blindness is not and cannot be an occupational disease. Color 'blindness .is, generally, a congen- ital defect. It may be produced in the normal man from excessive use of alcohol, excessive use of tobacco, as the result of venereal disease, as the result of diseases of the brain, affect- ing thlose nerves, and it becomes an occupational disease, only, as a blow on the head may affect those particular nerves. In fact, it becomes an occupational disease, only, as far as a broken . arm or a broken leg might become so. Dr. Shaw, or Mr. Eidlitz, I dont remember' which, asked some question about relief funds, pension funds and so forth. I have got a brief here — I am not at all clear whether Dr. Shaw or Mr. Eidlitz would like this submitted — it is a brief result of what we do in the way of the pension department and relief ■department. Mr. Eidlitz: I would like to see it, very much. Mr. Atterbury: I submit it. (The paper submitted is as follows) : STATEMENT SHOWING WHAT THE PENNSYLVANIA RAILROAD COMPANY IS DOING FOR THE BEN- EFIT OF ITS EMPOLYEES. Relief Department. Pennsylvania Lines East. In 1886 the Company, in order to establish some well defined plan for the cafe of employees who were taken sick, or who were injured in the service of the Company, and to provide some re- lief for the families of those who die, established what is known as the Voluntary Relief Department, for the purpose of admin- istering a fund which is known as the Relief Fund. This fund is made up of joint contributions of the Company and employees who are members, the Company guarantees to make up any def- icit should there be one, at the end of any thjree year period, and also guarantees to take charge of the department and be respon- sible for the safe keeping of the funds, supply the necessary 694 facilities, for conducting the business of the department and pay all operating expenses. For further information of the Commission, the follow- ing explanation and statements are given : The department is in the executive charge of a Superintendent, but the general supervision of the operations of the department is vested in an Advisory Committee, whose duty it is to see that the department is conducted in accordance with the regulations. The Advisory Committee consists of 17 members, 8 of whom are chosen by the members of the fund and are employes of the companies, and 8 chosen by the companies associated in the ad- ministration of the department, with the general manager, as ex-officio member and Chairman of the Committee. During the almost twenty-six years of the operaitons of the department, namely from February 15, 1886, to December 31, 1911, there has been contributed: By the members $24,305,761.70 Special donations by the companies 60,652.86 By the companies to Dee. 31, 1899, for relief to sick members who had exhausted their title to benefits* 363,919.05 By the companies, for deficiencies 815,499.50 By the companies, for operating expenses, such as salaries of all employes of the department, supplies, etc 3,839,941.31 Interest, on monthly balances and investments. * 962,416.29 Donations 5,472.04 Total receipts $30,353,662.75 ''Benefits, at half rate, paid from the fund since December 31, 1899. 695 Disbursements from the fund February 15, 1886, to Decem- ber 31, 1911, have been as follows : 4,563 accident death benefits paid $2,412,049.23 11,921 sickness death benefits paid 6,879,117.56 253,257 disablements by accident 4,764,939.09 727,147 disablements by sickness 9,269,853.86 Superannuation allowances paid to retired mem- bers of the fund 568,945.46 Expenses paid by the companies for operating the department 3,839,941.31 Total $27,734,846.51 Balance in Fund, December 31, 1911 $2,618,816.24 From the above it is shown that the actual payments by the companies amounted to $5,080,012.72; by the members, $24,305,761.70; percentage of payments by companies to that of members, about twenty per cent. The expenses of office rent for twenty-three medical ex- aminers, where the property is owned by the companies, facil- ities of the mail, express and telegraph departments, free hos- pital service, surgical attendance, and the furnishing of artifi- cial limbs and other appliances made necessary by accident in companies' service, are not included in the above payments by the companies. By analyzing these statements, it will appear that the num- ber of deaths and disablements from accident is only about one- third of the number of deaths and disablements from sickness. In addition to the large contributions made by the com- panies, for the maintenance of the fund, there is the absolute guaranty, by the companies, that all just claims against the fund will be met when presented. This alone, is a very val- uable consideration, especially when considered with the very small amount of cash on hand, equivalent to 4 per cent, of the risk of $59,008,575.00 liability of deaths of members. It is provided in the regulations of the relief department that in the adjustments of the accounts between the companies and funds, the financial periods shall be of three years each,. At the close of. each three years the accounts are closed. If there is a deficiency in the funds at that time, the companies pro- vide the money necessary to make up any deficit, and if there 696 is a balance to the credit of the fund, it is placed in the surplus account, for the benefit of the members. This explains the con- dition that while the companies paid for various periods, defi- ciencies amounting to $815,499.50, there was a balance in the fund on December 31, 1911, of $2,618,816.24. Interest is paid, by the companies, at the rate of 4 per cent, per annum, on monthly balances, and while a portion of the amount to the credit of the fund on December 31, 1911. is due to this cause, the amount of cash paid by the companies, amounts to $5,080,012.72, which shows, conclusively, that if it were not for the contribution of the companies, instead of a balance to the credit of the fund there would be a large deficit, and that the superannuation allowances, which are made up largely of interest on the moneys in the fund and paid to the members who are retired from active service, in addition to the amounts received from the Company, as pensions, is made up in large part, from the moneys contributed by the companies. There is constantly carried, as beneficiaries of the Fund, a disablement list, varying from 4,000 to 6,000; of this number, there are 872 disabled by sickness and 105 by accident, who are permanently disabled and will never be able to resume duty. They will be carried on the disablement list, as long as they live and when they die, their beneficiaries will be paid the death benefit without any deduction on account of having been paid disablement benefits. In some cases; where employes are in destitute circumstances and they have families dependent upon them, and the benefits are not sufficient to prevent their becoming public charges, a special allowance is made by the Company. At the present time, we have about twenty-five such cases where special additional allowances are being paid by the Companv. For detailed information in regard to the workings of the Department, there is filed with this statement, copies of the regulations governing the department, and also copies of the last annual report. The Company also maintains a PENSION DEPARTMENT. All amounts paid to employes, on account of pensions, come directly from the Treasury of the Company, the employes not being called upon to contribute anything to this fund. 697 All employes must retire from active service upon reaching the age of 70 years; employes, however, who have had thirty years' service, may retire between the ages of 65 and 70 if they are physically disqualified for further service. The Pension Department was established on January 1, 1900. From that date to December 31, 1911, there have been retired : Employes who have reached the age of 70 years 3,203 Employes between 65 and 69 years, inclusive 1,738 4,941 Died, 70 years of age or over 1,646 Died, 65 to 69 years, inclusive 629 2,275 Total pensioners on list December 31, 1911 2,666 From 1900 to 1911, inclusive, there was paid to retired em- ployes by the Company, $5,513,344.94 varying from $238,418.57 in 1900 to $732,110.70 in 1911. The Company also maintains a SAVING FUND Where employes may deposit amounts not in excess of $100.00 during any one month. On December 31, 1911, the num- ber of depositors was 10,187, and the amount on hand in the fund $5,384,575.00. Interest is allowed depositors at the rate of 3% per cent, which amount the Company guarantees to pay. If the earnings from the amount on deposit is in excess of this. amount, the percentage is increased, but on account of the guar- antee of the Company it cannot fall below 31/2. per cent. In addition to the foregoing the Company maintains at dif-> ferent points along the lines REST HOUSES Where employes in the train service may have a comfortable bed and at points where rest houses are not established, there are Railway T. M. C. A.'s where comfortable beds can be had for a very reasonable amount, generally at a cost of 10 cts. Mr. Morrissey : Do the rules of the department accompanv that? 698 Mr. Atterbury: No, but I can file that, and will be very glad to do so, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Eidlitz or Dr. Shaw asked as to the effect of the Na- tional Compensation Act. I might say that we had our repre- sentatives present at Washington during the entire conference, and followed the developing of that law with the greatest inter- est. The effect upon the Pennsylvania Eailroad for 1908, 1909 and 1910 was that it would have cost the Pennsvlvauia Lines East about $2,700,000. Mr. Judson : It would have cost you that ? Mr. Atterbury ; It would have cost us that, over and above what we did pay. Now, I do not know that this is the proper place to express my opinion on that subject, but I can only say that, in my judgment, the effect of the Compensation Act would be a very good one. In my judgment, the quicker we get it into use the better it will be for the country ; the quicker we get the cost of occupation accident on the cost of our production, the better it will be for everybody, Mr. Morrissey : Have you any figures that would show the probable result of the same accidents, in money, to your com- pany, under the present Federal Employers' Liability Law? Mr. Atterbury : I do not think I have those figures, Mr. Morrissey, but I think, if you think it is of sufficient importance, that we have the data that would enable us to work it up. Mr. Morrissey: I do not regard it as of sufficient import- ance for this hearing, but if you had prepared any figures in this connection, I would like to have your estimate. Mr. Atterbury : I do not know that I can work it up before ike end of the session. Mr. Morrissey: In a general way, would the effect of the application of the present Federal Employers' Liability Law cause your company to have expended more money than it would under the proposed Compensation Act?- Mr. Atterbury: As I have not the figures for the Employ- ers' Law you speak of, Mr. Morrissey, I should hesitate to ex- press an opinion. Mr. Judson : In that statement you have made, I think you said there were $2,000,000? Mr. Atterbury: $2,700,000, for three years. We are work- ing on the 1911 figures, now. 699 Mr. Judson: In making Up that statement, did you deduct what you expend now, for paying for personal injuries find law- yers' fees, and the like? Mr. Atterbury: Right. That is the net cost. Mr. Judson: Of course, it would only be the approximate cost you will have to figure on Mr. Atterbury : No, we took the classes of accidents in each case and then applied that law and then took our settlement ajnd subtracted that. The Chairman: It would have had a much greater benefit than that, for the persons injured, because, I suppose, the cost of legal procedure was also deducted from the amount. Mr. Atterbury : That we would not know of ; that we would not have been aware of, what it would have cost the claimant to have sustained his claim. Mr. Shaw : But your opinion is, probably, that it would put him in a much more favorable condition? Mr. Atterbury: Oh, unquestionably, Dr. Shaw. Mr. Judson: You think it is right, in principle? Mr. Atterbury: I most positively do, because I think each manufacturer, whether transportation or whatever it is, ought to bear the cost of the accidents, and the public in buying that transportation, or whatever it buys, whether it is newspapers or anything else, ought to pay for that. part of the operation. Now, taking this report, I might say that the Pennsylvania Railroad's method of arriving at the pay to its employes has been one of a constant endeavor to pay a fair rate for a fair day's work. We have not been bound by any rules or regula- tions, or anything of that sort, and, as a result, we have believed that our employes have been in the past, and I hope they may be in the future, equitably paid for the work that they may do. When it comes to applying rates, briefly, I might say the prevailing rates in the district for the like service have always been taken into consideration, that is — the compensation paid by our competitors in the district in which we worked; the abil- ity of the employe to earn a fair wage consistent with reason- able hours of service; the character of the service performed, together with local conditions, the length of the run, and whether single or round trip or a combination of short trips; the length 700 and the convenience of the lay-over, with a view of having the- major portion at the home terminal. Now, turning to the table on page 10, I simply want to submit that for your careful consideration. (Under the exist- ing scale of wages in force as of October, 1911, we took 75 per- cent, of the runs of each division; I think we have some 28 or 29 divisions. We consolidated those, consolidated the miles run,, the number of hours on the rail, and the total number of hours on duty, and the total amount earned for our through passenger, our local passenger, our fast freight and our slow freight. I do not know that I could submit anything that more truly represents the average condition of all of our engineers in that- service than that statement. As a result of that, if you will notice, in through passen- ger trains, the average length of run was 118.4 inilesi Now, that was the average of 11,000 runs. The average hours on the rail was 4.18; the average hours on duty was 4.68. Now, the aver- age earned per hour on rail, and the average earned per hour on duty is also shown there. While that is interesting, I do not think it is particularly important; but I do think that it is im- portant, if you will multiply the number of hours on duty by the average amount that they received per hour on duty. Un- fortunately, that has not been shown, but I have myself done it, and for the first column the average earnings is $5.15 ; for the second column it is $4.18 ; for the third column it is $5.86, and for the fourth column it is $5.39. Mr. Van Hise: Would it be too much trouble to give those numbers again? Mr. Atterbury: $5.15 for the first column. The Chairman: That is for through passenger trains? Mr. Atterbury: Yes, sir; $4.18 for the second column. The Chairman: Local passenger trains. Mr. Atterbury: It is $5.86 for the third column. The Chairman: Fast freight. Mr. Atterbury: And $5.39 for the fourth column. The Chairman: Slow freight trains.. Mr. Morrissey: How do you say you obtained those results? Mr. Atterbury: That is taking 75 per cent, of the 701 Mr. Morrissey: I mean those last three. Mr. Atterbury: By multiplying No. 10, by No. 7, in each «case, or you can get the same thing, by multiplying No. 5, by No. 9, or you can get the same, by dividing No. 2, into No. 8. Mr. Van Hise: No. 9 by No. 5, did you say? Mr. Atterbury : Yes, sir. There are three methods there, Mr. Morrissey, that you could reach the same figures exactly. Mr. Van Hise: And the third method? Mr. Atterbury: By dividing No. 2, which is the total num- ber of trains run, into the total amount of money earned. Xow those statements were made up from the time cards — the t'me beginning thirty minutes before they left the house and until •they reached the ash pit at the end of the run. Now, it is in- teresting to note in connection with those statements, that the ..average hours on duty for the passenger engineer are 4.68 ; for .the local engineer, 4.96; for the fast freight, 8.53, and for the :«low freight, 9.66. Now, after all is said and done, gentlemen, there is the thing that tells the story, as far as the application of rates is • concerned, to our employees: Have they earned a good fair wage? We believe they have. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. Atterbury, would you have any ob- jection to that statement going into the record as a part of your testimony? Mr. Atterbury: Not at all. Mr. Duncan : For the convenience of the Commission, I will hand the reporter a copy so that it may be inserted at this point. Mr. Judson: You mean No. 10? The Chairman: No. 7, on page 10. Mr. Duncan: Yes, that part. The paper referred to is as follows: 702 T J1 n CI fC •+ 1C ffl t> Jt Cf. o 703 Mr. Van Hise : There is one question that is puzzling ine. You say that the question is, in substance ; have they earjied a fair wage, and you believe they have. Now, have you any theory upon which you base that statement, what is your theory in re- gard to it! Mr. Atterbury: Why, Dr. Van Hise, my theory goes back to whether or not the man in each individual case has given a fair return in work, for a reasonable amount of money. Mr. Van Hise : As a matter of your best judgment, as repre- senting your best judgment ? Mr. Atterbury: Eight. Mr. Van Hise : But, not upon any economic theory? Mr. Atterbury: In my judgment there can be no detailed basis of wages, where the controlling conditions are so totally at variance, as they are on so large a system as the Pennsyl- vania Lines, East. The Chairman: Are these rates fixed upon, in comparison with employment in other industries, for instance! Mr. Atterbury : No, Mr. Straus, they are not. I might say that we have increased our wages from time to time, and it is interesting to note that, in 1902, we gave a ten per cent increase ; in 1906, we gave a ten per cent increase ; in 1907, there were certain adjustments made to the engineers and firemen ; in 1910, we made a flat six per cent increase and in June, 1910, following the awards in the Baltimore & Ohio case and the result of the arbitration of Mr. Clark and Mr. Morrissey, in the New York Central case, certain adjustments were made to the engineers and to the train men. Now, we did that, not because in our ad- justment we thought that the men earned the increase, but, be- cause we have taken the position and maintaind it — how long we can do so I don't know — that we wanted our men as well paid as our competitors. The application of the mileage award to the New York Central and to the Baltimore & Ohio worked to the railroad company, what might be considered an inequity, in- asmuch as it raised a number of men who were already well paid, but did not reduce the wages of men who were equally well paid, but who would have been reduced, had the milage rates been im-. partially applied. Now, that is illustrated in a diagram on page 26. It is some- what awkward and somewhat small and mav be hard to follow: 704 Mr. Duncan: I have some larger ones here, Mr. Atterbury,.. that may help you. Mr. Atterbury: Now, there is a diagram illustrating a num- ber of runs in through freight service. And, I want to say, for Pr. Van Hise's benefit, that this does not truly represent the situation, because it is a sample run from a sample division,, and you would not get a true representation, unless you took the total number of runs under that rate. The yellow line will show this application of the $4.85 rate, which was the mileage rate for ten hours. You will see in one or two cases here where it was looped off. Now, in these cases it was used to bring up the wages, but nothing was clone towards taking down the ' ' peaks. ' ' Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Atterbury, has it not been a rule be- tween the railroad companies and their employes, for years, in these adjustments, that regardless of what standards they may strike there would be no reductions of rates in existence if they happened to be higher? Mr. Atterbury: Mr. Morrissey, that has been the policy. It was practically the effect of the Morrissey and Clark award, except, I think, in the case of certain vacations granted to the passenger conductors, or in some way, where my recollection is that you decided that they should be taken off. But, we did not avail ourselves of that particular portion of the award. We cort'nued our vacations, I think, to our passenger conductors. Mr. Morrissey : But, has not the rule of preserving the rate, even though it be higher, been in existence prior to the New" York Central award! Mr. Atterbury: Why it has been, in this respect; Mr. Mor- ' risey, but I do not necessarily agree that, because it is, or has been, that it is right. Mr. Morrissey: Well, the point 1 wish to bring out is that while the New York Central award might have done violence, in one or two instances, it is not responsible for all of the inaccuracies that may appear in your schedule. Mr. Atterbury: Oh, no; I do not mean to suggest such a thing as that, Mr. Morrissey : I was only trying to show to the Commission that if vou should take away from the Company, in 705 justice to the company you should take away from the men, where they are already overpaid, on the basis that you decide as standard. In other words, if, for purposes of equalization — if you desire to call it so — you want to bring all employees in that particular line of work to exactly the same scale base, and in doing so, increase the expenses of the railroad where that base applied is low, then, it seems to me, in justice to the railroad, if you want to apply that standard, you should touch on the wages -of those who are already high, as applied to that base. In other words I cannot see, as a matter of equity, how you can have a -standard and then not apply the standard. I do not see how that I can make myself clear in this situation. Mr. Van Hise : I understand you. The Chairman: Fully. Mr. Atterbury: But it is a pretty involved situation. Mr. Duncan : In other words, you want it applied not only in favor of the men, but in favor of the company, if they apply .the standard. Mr. Atterbury: My only thought is, if it is an equitable situation at all, it must be applied in its entirety, to be equit- able to all parties. Mr. Duncan: Because the presumption is that the high rates were made in consideration of other rates. Mr. Atterbury: The high rates were made in consideration of the work and the low rates were made in consideration of the work. Now, the next point that I would like to bring out is in connection with the wages on the electric service. Mr. Duncan : I think, if the Board please, we would like to offer in evidence at this point two blue prints that Mr. A tier-- bury has been referring to, and the Board can utilize the card- board ones, if Mr. Atterbury has no objection to that. Mr. Atterbury: Not at all, Mr. Duncan. The Chairman: But, you are offering these in evidence. Mr. Duncan: We are offering these in evidence, as part of Mr. Atterbury 's evidence. (The chart showing freight rates paid prior to and since June 1st, 1910, compared with present and proposed basic mile- age rates was marked "Railroad Exhibit No. 118, July 24-th, 1912.") 706 (The Chart showing passenger rates paid prior to, and since June 1st, 1910, compared with present and proposed basic mileage rates was marked Railroad Exhibit No. 119, July 24th, 1912.) Mr. Atterbury: Doctor, do you understand that in order to get the true picture of this the number of runs ought to be taken and multiplied by that rate? Mr. Van Hise : Yes, I understand it. Mr. Atterbury : The portion of the Articles of the engineers "whenever electric service is installed, or now in operation, locomotive engineers ' ' Mr. Van Hise: What page are you on? Mr. Atterbury: Page 29, Dr. Van Hise. "Wherever electric service is installed, or now in opera- tion, locomotive engineers will take the position on electric lo- comotives or multiple unit trains under the prevailing sched- ules," and s"o forth. Now, on the Pennsylvania Railroad, following its usual custom in matters of that sort, when we opened up the West Jersey & Seashore, we applied what we believed to be an equit- able rate. It was the prevailing passenger rate at that time, but we increased the mileage. My recollection is that that re- mained in service for perhaps a year, and in accordance with the promise that I made to the men — I was then General Man- ager — they came in to request a readjustment of that mileage. In the meantime, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engi- neers, at its Cincinnati meeting, had announced the desire that locomotive engineers should operate electric locomotives, as I remember it, Mr. Stone, and at steam rates. That was brought to my attention and I told our Engineers' Committee tbat I was perfectly willing; to pav a reasonable rate, but tbat I could not see that the decision of the Brotherhood of Locomotive En- gineers, as to their desires, was to be binding upon me, but I was perfectly willing to submit the matter to a committee, as to the proper rates to pay for the West Jersey & Seashore elec- tric service. As a restilt of that, the men selected three of their own members, as members of the Committee, and in addition se- lected, if I am not mistaken, one or two of the three road fore- 707 men, whom I also appointed on the Committee, so that the Com- mittee finally consisted of three engineers and three road fore- men of engines, who had heen engineers, to go over the country and come back and tell me if the present rate that we were pay- ing was not fair, what the rate, or the conditions, should bo that we should pay. They made a report to me, as of February 29, 1909, and the conclusion of this report is as follows : "In conclusion we would say that after taking into con- sideration all of the conditions as we found them on the roads referred to, rates of pay, hours on duty, hours and miles con- stituting a day, and the various duties of the motormen, we are of the opinion that 210 miles per day is excessive, and that it would be fair and equitable to both the company and the men to maintain the present rate of pay of $4.72" — I might say that, since that time, that rate, because of the six per cent, adjust- ment, has been brought up to $5.00 — "present rate of pay of $4.72 per day on the West Jersey & Seashore; and we would therefore recommend that 180 miles or less, ten hours or less, constitute a day; and that extra trips made during a swing, or after completing an assigned day's work, as specified on the running sheet, be paid for on a basis of 2.6 cents per mile, or 47.2 cents per h)our, whichever is the greater; this, in addition to the pay of the regular assigned day's work. "We would further recommend that cars with steel fronts be placed on the forward end of each train when it can be done without involving any additional expense." Immediately on the receipt of that report, that schedule was put into effect, in accordance with the recommendations of the Committee, and that schedule is in effect to-day. That, fig- ured out on our present $5.00 a day, brings it up to something like 2.75 or 2.76 cents per mile. Now, in connection with that, as a matter of interest to the Commission, I might say that the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, last April, signed up with the Hudson & Manhattan — and, if I am wrong, I trust Mr. Stone will correct me — signed up with the Hudson & Manhattan, on a basis of $3.85, with a mileage of 140 or 142, which figures out something like 2.72 cents, as against 2.76 cents, the present rate on our West Jer- sey & Seashore. It is rather curious that the report of the Com- 708 mittee of three or four years ago, and the action of Mr. Stone of three or four months ago, should have been so close, as to the pay of multiple unit trains in service, that in a measure is similar and in other respects decidedly unshnihir. When it comes to the matter of danger from electric ser- vice, such statistics as I have — they are not very full, at the same time, in a measure, they reflect tlie situation — on page 36 are shown the accidents for a number of years. It shows that one engineer was killed in the steam service, and one motorman was killed in the electric service Now, as a matter of fact, the motorman who was killed in the electric service was killed as a result of his train going through a draw. The engineer who was killed in the steam service — I have forgotten whether it was a boiler blowing up, or whether it was a collision at Bridge- town. Mr. Willard: I would like to ask about that draw. I take it there was nothing peculiar there to the electric service. Mr. Atterbury: Nothing but a case of a draw opened be- fore an electric train, and there might have been a steam locomo- tive on it, and if the steam locomotive had been there with a clear signal, and the rajl up, he would have gone into the river too, I mean the thoroughfare. Now, the number of injured in the electric service has been two, and their disablements, days' duration, has been, in one case, six days, and in one ease eleven days — a total disablement of seventeen days. In the steam service, there have been 42 cases of injuries and 1,347 days disablement. It does not prove much, other than to give a little side light on the electric service. On page 37 is another statement which, while it does not prove much, at thie same time, it gives a side light. Since the inauguration of the electric service, there have been four cases of discipline in electric or steam locomotive matters, and 42 in transportation matters, whereas, in the steam service, in 80 cases of engineers, there have been 70 cases of discipline. Now, as to that portion of the request that steam locomo- tive engineers should operate all electric locomotives on lines, no matter who uses them; gentlemen, that has something in it that does not appear on the surface. At the same time, tbtere 709 is a serious side of that proposition. The Pennsylvania Rail- road's practice in the past has been, when we have electrified, to assign to that electric service, at a reasonable and fair rate, our steam engineers. The question of obligating themselves to con- tinue that for the future is a more serious matter. We have not thought of making any change, but the decision by this Com- mission that such shall be the case in the future, would so tie up the railroad and tie up the property as to prohibit the lease or sale of the property, by a lien of the employes, and it also car- ries with it, hidden, but still there, the right of the employes to demand continuous employment. I do not know whether you gentlemen appreciate that particular phase of this proposition. Mr. Eidlitz : Will you elucidate that a little more clearly ? Mr. Atterbury : I will elucidate it in this way : We have had what Mr. Morrissey calls a crisis on the Pennsylvania Railroad within the last month, brought about by the application of that principle to a portion of our line. When we opened up our Pennsylvania Station, we at the same time opened up a subway line that is called the Hudson & Manhattan. It is hardly necessary for me to go into the de- tails of the negotiations that led to the construction of that line, but I can only say that had we not done so — had we not joined in the use of that line — a very large portion of our suburban business would have been lost to us entirely; that by the com- bination of the Pennsylvania Lines with the interests who now own the Hudson & Manhattan Line we were enabled to prevent the construction of a competing line between Newark, N. J., and New York City. The joint Hudson & Manhattan line runs from Park Place, Newark, to Church Street, New York. We operate a portion of our railroad to Summit Avenue, and from Summit Avenue to Church Street they operate over the Hudson & Manhattan tracks. We delegated to the Hudson & Manhat- tan Railroad the entire operation of that line, and gave them permission to man their own trains and our trains, with their oWji men. The moment — or rather not the moment, but subse- quently — a demand was made upon us by our men that we should not permit the" Hudson & Manhattan to man all those trains, but that a portion of our men should run in that ser- vice. The demand was made by the engineers, but Air. Stone 7iD with his usual acumen, 1 think, appreciated the situation and started in and organized the Hudson & Manhattan, and before Mr. Stone got through with it, he had all the men on the Hud- son & Manhattan in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, and they had signed up — a good piece of work. The other or- ganizations, however, did not follow the same tactics, and, as a result took a strike vote on our lines, and the matter was finally settled by agreeing to disagree for a year, in effect, so that a year from now we may have practically the same proposi- tion to meet again. The Chairman : How long is the Hudson-Manhattan Line ? Mr. Atterbury : It is 14.6 miles. The Chairman: Is that the tube? Mr. Atterbury: Yes, sir, that is the tube. 8.9 miles of it — no, I beg pardon. The total length is 8.9 miles, and that portion of it on our rails is 5.7 miles. Mr. Duncan : That is the portion over which you and the Manhattan have joint service? Mr. Atterbury: I beg pardon? Mr. Duncan: Your company and the Manhattan & Hudson have joint service over that last five miles. Mr. Atterbury: The Hudson-Mc.±iliattan Line over our line have 5.7 miles, and their men run in with our steam service for that length of distance; that is, a portion of that length of dis- tance. There is a spur of it going into Park Place that we have no regular steam service on. Mr. Duncan: Do those Hudson & Manhattan men that are operating over that part of your track receive the pay you have stated, namely on a basis of Mr. Atterbury : $3.85, I think, for 142 miles. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Atterbury, do not forget to give the Board the benefit of your views on the proposal of engineers for rating engines on the basis of cylinders. Mr. Morrissey : Before you go into that, I would like to ask Mr. Atterbury a question in connection with the Hudson-Man- hattan situation. I understand from your statement that your agreement with the conductors, trainmen and firemen, leaves the matter as it is for a year? Mr. Atterburv: Well, it leaves it for a year, in this way, Til that tlie conclusions reached were that when regulations — I can- not exactly quote it, but the determination was that if we electri- fied, the regulations then in force at the time of the electrification would apply; but, incidentally, they brought up, whether directly or indirectly that next June they were going to demand repre- sentation in the Hudson & Manhattan service. Mr. Morrissey: Do you believe that there is a moral ques- tion involved in contracting away a part of your railroad to some other company and leaving the men who are operating the line without any employment, and permitting the line to which you lease your tracks, to man the trains, instead of the men who formerly operated them! Mr. Atterbury : What may be a moral obligation in one case might not be in another. I am satisfied, Mr. Morrissey, in that case, as in nearly every other case of the kind that I have had connection with, our moral obligation has been more than met. Mr. Morrissey: Well, let us illustrate a case. Supposing your company took over the Huntingdon & Broad Top Railway, which, by the way, I wish you would do ; would it be proper to displace the men now employed on the Huntingdon' & Broad Top Road by Pennsylvania Railroad employes? Mr. Atterbury: It might be proper or improper, Mr. Mor- rissey. The point that I am making is that we would not care to buy the Huntingdon & Broad Top with any legal obligation to take over the employes with the road, nor would the Hunt- ingdon & Broad Top care to make such an agreement with its men that would preclude the sale of the road unless accompanied by the taking care of the men. In other words, I question whether there ought to be any agreement between the men and the railroad which will become a legal lien on the property. The men themselves do not guarantee in any way, shape, or form, to continue employment with the railroad; they have no obliga- tion themselves ; they make no contract for eternally, or other- wise, continuing to remain in the service, individually or col- lectively. What is requested in that particular instance is the obligation of the railroad to the men, with no corresponding obligation from the men to the railroad. Mr. Morrissey: Have you made an extensive inquiry as to 712 how that question is regarded, and how it has been practiced by roads generally in similar cases ? Air. Atterbnry: 1 have not. But, it is a new principle to me, who have been handling the labor question since 1902; ai least, while 1 was General Manager, it was a new proposition- to nie, and never intentionally covered in any negotiations with the men: and when this claim was made to me, it was like ex- ploding a barrel of gunpowder under me. Tliat is, the men claimed we had broken our promise or broken our agreement. . The Chairman: Is it not, so far as the moral question is concerned, about as long as it is short; that is, you take ovei the line you have just been speaking of, and do not take over the men employed on that line, and put your own men on; then, the men who were working on that line are displaced; whereas, if you put your own men on, then, there are so many more men who are engineers and employes of the railroad who get the em- ployment. In other words, the amount of employment is neither increased nor lessened. Mr. Atterbnry : Mr. Straus, we have taken over a number of roads, and we have always taken over the men with them, and we have always taken care of the men after we have got them. We put them on our pension rolls immediately. But, I am differentiating between a practice and a legal obligation to do so. The Chairman : I understand that. Mr. Willard: I would like to inquire if, in the particular case referred to, when the Manhattan took over the road ana displaced some of your men, did your company furnish any other employment for those men, or dismiss them from the service ? Mr. Atterbury : So far as I know, we found employment for every single one of them. Mr. Willard: So they were not put out of employment be- cause of anything your company did? Mr. Atterbury : Not at all. Mr. Morrissey: But, it affectetd the standing of all the men in that district! \ Mr. Atterbury: It affected the standing of 13 crews, per- haps ; but. Mr. Morrissey, those were men who had been pro- moted, following the dual service that was formed by the open- ing of our Manhattan station and continuance of our Jersey 713 City Station. "We ran all of our crews into Jersey City. "When we cut out the engines at Manhattan Transfer and the through trains ran into the Pennsylvania station, we ran connecting' sub- trains from Manhattan Transfer to Jersey City. That was :t totally new service. Therefore, when we opened up our service at Pennsylvania station, we put on a totally new service. Now, the men that were on that totally new service were displaced when it came to the substitution of the Manhattan Transfer. In- cidentally, we stopped the engine crews at Meadow Yard, where they formerly ran into Jersey City, but we did not curtail their pay; they are getting just as much pay as they did before, al- though the mileage has been materially reduced. Mr. Judson: I don't quite understand the sense in which you use the term "legal obligation" there. No one claims that the employer owes a legal obligation to the employes, but he may assume such obligation by his contract relations with them. Mr. Atterbury: What would be the effect practical'y, at "least of the decision of this committee? Mr. Judson: Well, that is another proposition. What you are objecting to is having any such rule declared as a rule bind- ing upon you in the future. Mr. Atterbury: If you declare such a rule it 'will be bind- ing upon us. Mr. Judson: I say that it what you object to. Mr. Atterbury : I do. Mr. Duncan: I think there would be just as much moral ob- ligation to take over the officers of that line. Mr. Atterbury: No doubt. Mr. Duncan: You would not care to obligate your road to do that, would you? , Mr. Atterbury : No. Mr. Duncan : Now reverting to that classification of en- gines as proposed. Mr. Atterbury: Well, I can only say in an experience of 26 years in the construction of the locomotive, firing and op- eration of a locomotive, design of a locomotive, the authoriza- tion of a locomotive there has never been, so far as I know, any relation between what a locomotive shall do or can do and the wage that a man should he paid. 714 It is perfectly clear to my mind that, at least, the diameter of the cylinder is no measure. There are four factors that go into the tractive power that measures the actual work of the locomotive. There is a diameter of the cylinder, the stroke of the engine, the diameter of the wheel, and the boiler pressure. Now, if you want, to consider tractive power as the meas- ure, all of those go into the tractive power — are elements in the development of the tractive power. But, so far as I know, there is no reason why a man should' be paid for the increased tonnage that he draws, any more than the conductor should be so paid ; that the trainmen should be so paid ; that the operators should be so paid ; that the trackmen who repair the tracks should be so paid ; that the men in the shops who build and repair the locomotives should be so paid. But, I do claim that the employes of a railroad should profit with the railroad, in the general economies that are brought about through the economies, as an individual, or a class, and we have always endeavored to apply that, generally. Mr. Duncan: Will you explain, Mr. Atterbury, to the Board, the difference between the operations under the Despatcher's orders, as you might call it, and operations under the block signal? That has been referred to on two or three occasions as making a difference either in responsibility or in rates of the ineers. Mr. Atterbury: Well, perhaps I may not be as competent as some of the other gentlemen here, and I would be very glad however, if you will tell me exactly what you mean — if you would like to have me illustrate, I would be very glad to do it. Mr. Duncan: That is what I mean. Mr. Atterbury: Now, if you refer to the question of oper- ating on our main line divisions, we have signals so arranged that, I think, now we can go from Pittsburgh all the way through to Manhattan Transfer without an order, if necessary; that is, that a freight train leaving one of our terminals, so far as get- ting orders to meet, or pass, or anything of that sort, except in case ; 6'f emergency, can go through on the signals. The re- sult is' 'that when an engineer leaves a termnial with a freight train, he does not have to bother with passenger trains. All he 715 •does is just keep on going, as long as lie gets a signal. When the signal is against him, he stops and protects his train. The only exception to that, perhaps, may be in connection with cer- tain trains that may have certain work to do. In that event, they have got to stop and ask the Despatcher's peunission to use a certain switch, and they have to clear themselves, for pas- senger trains. Is that what ycu referred to ? jMr. Duncan: That is what I wanted to get. Mr. Atterbury : Now, I was rather interested in Mr. Packer's testimony about that telephone business. Mr. Duncan: That was the engineer on the run from New York to Washington? Mr. Atterbury: Yes. As a matter of fact there are two methods of operating passing sidings. You may have your railroad so constructed — a double track railroad with a passing siding on either side. The ends of those sidings will probably be at a tower. Now, vou can operate those sidings in one of two ways : You can stop a train and give him an order to take that .siding; then, when a man comes to the siding he has got to throw the switch and go in on the siding, and then stop at the tower till the tower man permits him to go out of the siding. In that case, he is first stopped to get the order; he is, second, stopped to go in the siding; he is, third, stopped at the tower. Now, in the case in question that Mr. Packer speaks of, my impression is that the sidings are so arranged that the man comes up to it and is automatically put in, by the signals and the switches, without previously having gotten an order; and he pulls to the end of the siding and then asks orders to get out. In other words, with the arrangement of the telephone, the arrangement of the interlocked switches, you have saved two stops for thai train and cleared your railroad many minutes more quickly and with some little less work to the crew. He does have to use the telephone when he wants to get out, it is true. If the telephone were not there, he would have to walk back to the tower and .get his orders. The Chairman: All of this testimony, Mr. Atterbury, that you are giving, refers specifically to the Pennsylvania Eoad ? Mr. Atterbury: I am not speaking for any other railroad. Mr. Straus, and I am not prepared to. The Chairman : Yes, I understand that. 716 Mr. Atterbury • I do not know, Mr. Duncan, if there is any- thing further to be said, except I would like to go back to the tables at the back part of that report. Some of them may be of interest to you. Mr. Duncan: I do not want to forget the table that refers. to the members of your relief fund. Mr. Atterbury : Yes ; I will do that. Mr. Duncan: "Would that come in now! Mr. Judson: I would be glad to hear Mr. Atterbury 's view on the specific issues submitted, the specific claims of the engi- neers as applied to his road. No doubt, he has some views on that subject. Mr. Duncan: You mean taking up each demand in its order? Mr. Judson: The different demands. Mr. Atterbury: I can do that. It is very fully set forth in there, Mr. Judson. Mr. Judson : It is set forth in this 1 Mr. Atterbury : It is very fully set forth in there. Now, on the page that is lettered E. It is rather interesting- to note that we have 2,666 employes on the pension rolls. In the next column, it shows the number of pensioners per thousand employes. Eather curiously, it shows that the engineers have more men on the pension roll per thousand of employees than any other class of our employes. In other words, it runs up to 37.5 per thousand. As an actual fact, we have 202 engineers on the pension roll who are — 7.6 per cent, of the pensioned employes are engi- neers, and they are drawing 12 per cent, of the pensions. Now, the average amount paid to all pensioned employees per month is $23.95; the engineers' average is $41.35. It is rather curious also to note that of the total number of employes the engineers form about 3.5 per cent. Yet they are drawing over 7 per cent, of the money. That is, for every dollar that the average Pennsylvania Eailroad employe, taken as a whole, receives, the engineers get $2.00. Now, in the statement marked G- Mr. Morrissey: Just a moment, Mr. Atterbury. The en- ginemen naturally would be senior men, would they not! Would 717 they not be nearer the pension limit than may of the other classes, on account of the years of service required in order to attain the position of engineman! Mr. Atterbury : Not more than the conductors, Mr. Morris- sey. Mr. Morrissey: With respect to the amount drawn out by the engineers, what were your figures on that, as compared with the otner classes f Mr. Atterbury : That is 7 per cent, of the men on the pen- sion roll were engineers, and li^ per cent, of the pensions drawn went to the engineers. Mr. Morrissey: In money? Mr. Atterbury : In money. Mr. Morrissey: Well, what portion — how would that com- pare with the proportion contributed by the enginemen to this fund from which — Mr. Atterbury: They do not contribute a cent to the fund. Mr. Morrissey: Are the funds paid as pensions, different from those paid as relief! Mr. Atterbury : Oh, entirely. The pension fund is paid en- tirely by the Pennsylvania Eailroad, and amounted, in 1911, to seven hundred and some odd thousand dollars. Mr. Judson : The relief comes from the men ? Mr. Atterbury : The relief comes from the men, in this way : "they pay a certain amount of money, for which they get fcr- .tain benefits, but the cost of the operation of that fund is borne by the Pennsylvania Eailroad entirely. The men themselves pay nothing for the cost of the operation. We pay for the doctors and for all the clerical hire, and maintain the clerical force that supports the thing, and everything of tbat sort. Mr. Willard: Might this be said of that, that every dollar that the Pennsylvania employes contribute toward the relief is afterward paid back to the men, that the company handles it without charge, and every dollar that is contributed by the men goes back to them. Mr. Atterbury : It does. Mr. Willard: That was my understanding of it. The Chairman: The entire relief fund is paid back by the railroad? 718 Mr. Atterbury : Is paid by the railroad, without any ques- tion whatever. Mr. Morrissey: What is the present surplus of the relief fund on the Pennsylvania Railroad f Mr. Judson: The relief fund is for sickness, as well as ac- cident ? Mr. Atterbury: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Or any physical disability? Mr. Atterbury : Why, anything but disabilities as the result of the man's own excesses; accident from intoxication, or vener- eal diseases, or anything of that sort are not paid for. Mr. Judson: If he is taken ill, it is immaterial what was the cause of his illness; you do not require that he should have been injured in the course of business ? Mr. Atterbury : I think I submitted it ; however, we can get that for you, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Morrissey : You mean, as to the amount of the surplus ? Mr. Atterbury : Yes. The balance ,in the fund December 31 , 1911, was $2,618,000. Mr. Morrissey: How is that invested? Mr. Atterbury: That is invested in bonds of the Pennsyl- vania Railroad and of other railroad companies. Mr. Morrissey : And where are the accretions applied ? Mr. Atterbury: The interest on a portion of this fund goes back into the fund, and the interest on a portion of the fund goes on what we call the superannuated fund, which is paid out to pensioned employes, you understand, who may be members of the relief fund, and whose pension would be increased from $3.00 to $16.00 per month over those figures I have already quoted you. Those figures I have quoted you have no bearing whatever on the amount of the superannuation fund; that in ad- dition gives the men from $3.00 to $7.00 a month. Mr. Morrissey : But they have themselves contributed all of the funds that are repaid to them through the superannuation fund? Mr. Atterbury: They have. The superannuation fund is the interest on these investments of various funds that are not required for active work, or are not required for responsibilities that may exist in the relief department. 719 Mr. Morrissey: Will the amount of the accretions to the surplus take care of the expense of the operation of the relief association 1 ? Mr. Ajtterbury: Would it? Mr. Morrissey: Yes. Mr. Atterbury: What do you think, Mr. Hunt? Mr. Hunt: No, sir; it would not. That statement shows that clearly. Mr. Morrissey: Does the company guarantee its deficit? Mr. Atterbury : The company guarantees its deficit. In past years there has been considerable deficit, but the company made that up. Does this answer what you had in mind Mr. Morrissey ? Mr. Morrissey : I understand the gentleman to say it would not. How far would it go toward paying the expenses of the operation of the relief association? Mr. Atterbury: I will ask Mr. Hunt with Mr. Duncan's permission, to answer that question. Mr. Hunt is the Superin- tendent of the Belief Department. Mr. Hunt: Some years it might do it, or very nearly so; others it would not, by considerable. I think that the operat- ing expenses, based on the amount the employes have paid, have been something like four million dollars in excess of what has been paid in by the employes. Mr. Morrissey : As you increase the wages of the employes, are their payments to the relief fund increased in proportion'? Mr. Hunt: No. Mr. Atterbury: Nor are their assessments increased? Mr. Stone: Will Mr. Hunt be placed on the stand later? The Chairman : Do you wish it ? Mr. Stone: If we are going into this Pennsylvania Relief Fund, I would like to go to the bottom of it and show you the thing in its real light, showing you what the effect of it is on our organization. Mr. Duncan: I did not intend to put Mr. Hunt on the stand because I did not think it was material. Mr. Stone may call him, if he wishes. The Chairman: Mr. Duncan says, if you wish to put Mr. Hunt on the stand, you can do so. Mr. Stone: I don't want him on the stand, but if we are 720 going to go into the Pennsylvania Relief and give it a clean bill of health, I would like to go into it right. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Hunt answered the question in response to Mr. Morrissey's inquiry. Mr. Atterbury: Mr. Chairman, in the tables which have been marked Gr and H are two very interesting statements, in connection with the mortality of the engineers, which Dr. Shaw asked some questions about. Mr. Shaw. They exactly answer the questions I had asked. (Tbe papers referred to by Mr. Atterbury are as follows:) 721 _- « Wt>if50005Nt>OfO(M 3a r-li-lr-li-li-lr-li-ICN Pi U a PI- I * 42 33 lO«5CO«0 | yDt-t~t^^O l ^D PI 00 o ft 1-1 a; w NNNN(MlMN(N(MIM ^xHCOCO-^in^-^COkO (M(M(MM(M(MN(M(MCq CO «H CM O co a) ro r« c3 to 1 — 1 01 " s fe CMCC<*10«Dt>»ffiOH OOOOOOOOtHtH T-lr-lr-lrH-i-lT-Hr-li-lrHrH H < o 00 w ' a OS J - 3*s % w s o rt T— 1 CO CO m & rH CI C15 Oi lO < '& ca a o c/i m -* ^d -+ m in -^ co -^ P ^ £3: 75 p £ O E 6 « ° g < O « a u qj > •di^ id tH oo co rH oo rH 03 b- in rH o o o K o O.' u 3 o CM CM T-H t-H i-l i—i ►3 H o s ■a o o Q «<; E P fc P o Ui TO flj cfi ffl H ;• ■"* -t CO q "* CO i— 1 <^ o s si oa a V) ID r-, ,5 S t— i t-H '~' 1-j r-5 i-H i— 1 j-^ rH i — i B eq P J aj g O m - Q H p cU fl O J P 8 o o M P § O CJ bo w u o u CJ a 3 P £< E O — ' tn 00 o to o in o o o in o CO CM Q S « 03 S O C3 "O i—i i—l B » s £ P H ^ P*rt « 5ZS a £ ^ O i—l to i — i CM CO 1- 00 N t? O) CM CO CO CO -t ■* CO CO ^* o 1—1 <5 2 H of C3 o O ^ t- 5" So 3 h CM i—l o CM CO CO CM CM t-- CO W 03 I, x « CO CO o CM CO CO oi to in co as H H CJ ^ H CT3 "* to °i CO m CO^CO t^ 03_ P r. m S a a > S V cm' CO* CO* CO* 7* ■«* ■^r* "^ "^i "^ H 3 J-f CM CO -V m to t- CO C3 O iH rt O o o o o o O O iH t-\ OJ >H OS 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 tH tH 1—1 i-l 1— i i-H HHriH m ••->.'! Mr. Atterbury: It is rather interesting to note that in 1902, 26 men died from natural causes, and that increased to 47 in 1911, whereas, in 1902, as a result of accident 24 men died, and in 1911, only six men died. That shows there has been a con- stant reduction in the number of killed, whereas, the number of those who have died from natural causes has been a constant, depending upon the total number of members. In the next column, that is the percentage of deaths to the number of members, it is rather curious to note that, in 1902, nine-tenths of one per cent., or less than one in 100, died from natural causes, and that exactly the same percentage is carried through pretty nearly all the years, whereas the percentage of deaths of those who died as the result of accident, has been re- duced from eight in 1,000 to one in 1,000, and the total deaths from 1.7, in 1902, to 1, in 1911. Now, on the table marked Q-, if you will carry through those figures in your head, as to the number, you will find The Chairman: I just want to ask you one question. "Died as the result of accident," you say eight in 1,000, taking 1902. That refers to thousands? Mr. Atterbury : That is eight-tenths of one per cent. That would be eight in 1,000. Now, if you will turn back to the table marked Gr and apply those figures; the average age of all en- gineers dying from natural causes, when they were employed as firemen, is 25; those that died as a result of accident were 23, when they were employed as firemen. Those that died from natural causes, fired six years, and those that died as a result of accident, fired six years. Those that died from natural causes averaged 30 years of age when they were employed as engineers, whereas, those that died as the result of accidnt, averaged 29 years of age when they were promoted to be en- ginemen. The average age, at death, was 51 years with those that died from natural causes, and 42 years with those that died as a result of accident and the average age at death of all was 48. Now, the average length of service of engineers of those men who died from natural causes was 21 years, and the aver- age length of service, as engineers, of those who died as a re- sult of accident was 13 years, and the average length of service of the enginemen, of all who died, was 18. Now, it is rather curious and it is exceedingly interesting, to note that the aver- age age, at death, of all classes of our employes, officers and all others at 49, as against 51 for the engineers, and, for all, the average age at death, as the result of accident, was 33, as against 42 for engineers. In other words, apparently the engineer's length of life is longer than the average of all employes. Mr. Shaw: You would not infer from that, however, that that was because of the safety conditions, but probably because they were a very superior and picked class of men, inasmuch as the majority of deaths are from natural causes? Mr. Atterbury: Well, in actual fact, Doctor, I think our statements in here will show that, compared with the firemen, the conductors, the trainmen and thje trackmen, that the engi- neer's occupation is the safest of all. Mt. Shaw : But, your total employes include a great many office men and clerks Mr. Van Hise: Would that result follow because of the fact that before becoming engineers there has been selection? Mr. Atterbury : I cannot see that that would have a bearing on it, as the natural causes would be common in any event, and th;e accidental causes would not be affected in any method of previous selection; therefore, I cannot see that previous selec- tion would affect, in any way, the natural results, for a certain number of years. Mr. Van Hise : Well, I will not argue it with you, but Mr. Atterbury: Well, you only asked me a question, and I am answering it. Mr. Van Hise: I do not want to get into an argument and use up time, but I did not mean selection, in the sense of in- creases of accidents, but because men have gone through a pre- paratory training, and the weaker have fallen out, the group that goes into the higher class have become a seasoned and se- lected class. Mr. Atterbury: I think that is absolutely true. Mr. Judson: Well, you require physical examination of firemen and engineers? Mr. Atterbury: We require physical examinations of our firemen and re-examination of our engineers, from time to time. 725 Mr. Judson: That is, a re-examination physically of the -engineers f ■Mr. Atterbury: I believe so. Mr. Judson: So that an engineer has passed through two physical examinations and they are to that extent a selected -class ? Mr. Atterbury: Yes. Now, on this table, I is simply an •exhibit showing that our speed of trains is practically what it .has been for a number of years. Table J is rather an interesting exhibit. It shows the aver- age tons per mile, and the average number of cars per train. Now, in 1900, the average train was 24.37 cars. In 1911, the average train was 24.42 cars. In 1900, the average tons per train was 402, and the average tons per train, in 191:1, was 519, which shows an increase per train of approximately 28 per cent. Now, it is interesting to note, in connection with that, that the engineers received something over forty per cent, increase, in the corresponding period, so if they want to base wages on the tonnage, it is apparent that with our lines, at least, they are not hauling the tons per train that they would haul if it were based on the increase in the wages. Mr. Duncan: We would like that statement spread on the .record. The statement is as follows: 26 Statement and Chakt Xo. 25 Showing Tons Pee Cab (Lading), Cabs Pee Train (Loaded Basts), and Tons Pee Tratn (Lad- ing) Pennsylvania Eailroad Ltnks East of Pittsbubgh and Ebie. Yeabs 1900 to 1911, Inclusive. Year Tons Pei' i ar (Lading) Cars Per Train (Luaded Basis) Tons Per Train (Lading) 1900 21.31 24.37 402.40 1901 21.37 24.45 410.10 1902 22.94 23.58 424.49 1903 24.03 23.08 436.03 1904 24.24 22.40 422.64 1905 25.01 20.23 429.39 1906 26.24 20.89 442.17 1907 28.14 21.44 470.12 1908 27.48 22.85 479.59 1909 27.55 24.07 515.58 1910 27.75 23.44 512.99 1911 27.40 24.42 519.58 Mr. Atterbury: Statement E has already been explained. I might say, Mr. Van Hise, if, in your analysis of this particu- lar statement Mr. Morrissey: Just a moment, Mr. Atterbury. Will that table, tons per train loading, as between 1900 and 1911, reflect the gross or net earnings increase, in the same proportion? Mr. Atterbury : No, because my recollection is tliere has been a reduction in the rate. Now, I just want to say. Doctor, in connection with those figures, 519 and 402, that last column, that is taken by dividing the total tonnage by the total locomo- tive mileage. In those statements submitted by Mr. Worthing- ton, the train mileage is used, as the divisor, and not locomotive mileage. Mr. Morrissey: Do you use the locomotive mileage as a di- visor, in order to find your train loading? Mr. Atterbury: Yes, because that gives us the loading per engine. Mr. Morrissey: Well, does your road operate a larger num- 727 ber of pushers than other roads in the territory, the presump- tion being that much of the pusher mileage is light mileage ? Mr. Atterbury: Well, you will understand, Mr. Morrissey. that whether you use train mileage, or locomotive mileage, if you go up the hill with three locomotives and you bring that down in three train units, the reduction in the number of cars per train would be practically the same. We do use a great deal of helper mileage; because of our grades, we have to. Mr.- Morrissey : But, does not that give you a greater di- visor, by using the locomotive mileage? Mr. Atterbury: It d°es. That statement will show a very much larger train tonnage than this does. But, the ratio of in- crease would remain the same, that is, there ought not to bo any radical variation in the increase of the tonnage per train on a train mileage basis than that on a locomotive mileage ba- sis. The increase ought to be the same, that is, practically 28 per cent. I do not know that I have anything further to add to this situation, except the conclusion as shown on page 58, and that I want to submit to you for your serious consideration. The Pennsylvania Railroad for a number of years has been spending, as an improvement on its property, the surplus over dividends. In the periods as shown on page 54, it has spent over $100,000, 1900 to 1910. Mr. Duncan: You mean $100,000,000? Mr. Atterbury: $100,000,000 in improvements, that do not materially enhance our income. Tbe corresponding surplus for that period approximated one hundred and forty million odd dollars, and there is some $46,000,000 that has been expended in items that, in a measure, slightly may increase our income. I am not prepared to say what the effect will be upon us in years to come, but we estimate that between 1910 and 1920 we should spend upon our property $177,000,000 in expenses, ap- propriations that, in our judgment, should not come from cap- ital, but should be earned from the property itself. Mr. Van Hise : Well, now, why so? That is, if the property has increased. That goes into a pretty fundamental question. Mr. Atterbury: If I were required to raise an amount of money equal to th,is, I would be asked to show the earning power. 728 Mr. Van Hise : Well, do yoti not expect, in putting in $177,- 000,000 in the next ten years — I am supposing that all allowance has been made for depreciation, at the full value of your prop- erty, and this is an increased value of the property due to ac- tual improvements made, illustrated, for instance, on a great scale, by your New York terminal — do you not thereby increase the value of the property and its potential earning power! Mr. Atterbury: Well, I will take concrete examples. We have recently spent something like a million dollars in the elimi- nation of grade crossings through Bristol. Mr. Van Hise: Will not that enable you to increase your speeds and increase economies in the operation of your trains '! Mr. Atterbury: So intangible as to be negligible. Never- theless, it is a proper thing for us to do. We will save prac- tically the wages of four or five double flagmen at a crossing; that is, we may have double flagmen on, at night, and may have a flagman on, in the daytime. Mr. Van Hise : Will you not be able to increase your speed through Bristol, and get greater efficiency of your equipment? Mr. Atterbury : No, because before that we run at full speed through Bristol; there was no speed limit, so far as I know, through Bristol. Mr. Van Hise : I am not going to argue the matter, but I simply want to know your position. Is it your position, for instance, that if there were a given amount, for illustration, $10,000,000 in dividends — I select that amount because there has been practically $100,000,000 put in in the last ten years — if $10,000,000 should go to stockholders in dividends, and $10,- 000,00 should go into the improvements of the property in the form of permanent improvements, is not that, from the point of view of the public, doubling the dividends on the property? Mr. Atterbury: No, sir. Mr. Van Hise: Why not? Mr. Atterbury : That is, not from my standpoint. Mr. Van Hise : Do not misunderstand me. Mr. Atterbury: I understand. Mr. Van Hise : I am ready to admit that from the point of view of railroad operating, if you can do that it is a most ad- vantageous and wise thing to do, from the point of view of the property. I am not criticizing that. Mr. Atterbury: It has been my judgment that nothing should be capitalized that did not have an earning power. 729 Mr. Van Hise: Well, that goes, of course, to a theoretical principle, which, I fear, if we discuss would take a long time, so I would not wish to go into it. But, of course, that princi- ple, you well know, does not correspond with the principle that is adopted in all foreign railroads, nor the principle that is adopted with regard to a great many industrial enterprises. Mr. Atterbury : Well, Doctor, so far as I know, no industrial enterprise of any character exists but charges off at much larger rates than any figures that I have submitted here. If you compare the American railroads with the English railroads, or the results of their operation, or their cost of operation, I think our American roads will — at least I understand the Penn- sylvania Railroad — will show up very well. Mr. Van Hise: I am excludng depreciation. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I admit fully that from operat- ing expenses there should go in a sufficient amount of money to fully account for depreciation, and so keep up the value of the property ; but I am merely speaking of the amount beyond that, which improves the value of the property, which is that item which I understood you to say was covered by this $100,000,000. Mr. Atterbury: Well, that $100,000,000 covers what our im- provements cost, but which do not increase the earning power. Mr. Judson : Let me get your meaning there, Mr. Atterbury. Suppose you find it desirable to put up improved station build- ings through the length of your lines. Mr. Atterbury: Yes, that is something that, as far as pos- sible, ought to go out of our surplus, because it does not increase — Mr. Judson: It does not earn any more. Mr. Atterbury : No. But, a reduction in a grade, which will' enable us to increase the tonnage, or an increase running track that will facilitate the movement, and so forth, that is a proper charge, in my judgment, to additions and betterments, and, there- fore, to capital. I am trying to differentiate — Mr. Judson : Yes, I see your point. Suppose you cut down a grade through a mountain, or you tunnel where you have had a great detour, where would you place that? Mr. Atterbury: Well, it would have cost a certain sum of money to have done that work; it will have cost a certain sum of money to have built the original line. The original line be- comes abandoned property, and an amount corresponding ta 730 the cost of the original line is charged to operating expenses,. and the difference between that amount and the cost of the tun- nel line becomes a charge to additions and betterments. Mr. Morrissey: Is not that the rule of the Interstate Com- merce Commission! Mr. Atterbury: That is the rule of the Interstate Commerce- Commission, and on that particular point I have no question, nor - am I questioning the wisdom. Many of these items go, under the regulations of the Interstate Commerce Commission to additions and betterments, but they are not capitalized ; they stand as an asset, on the asset side of our ledger, but they are not capital- ized. Mr. Shaw: That is their treatment of the elimination of grade crossings also is it not ? Mr. Atterbury : Yes. Mr. Judson: Your position is that American railroads have to face the problem of making vast expenditures, which can not possibly call for new capital ? Mr. Atterbury: In my judgment they cannot properly call for new capital, because they have no earning power. Mr. Judson: I see. Mr. Atterbury: And, I do not know where they are going to get new capital, unless they can show an earning power of the money that they propose to invest. Now, that is the practi- cal side of the question; I mean, stripped of all theories and uncertainties and anything of that sort. We cannot get money to spend if we cannot show that we can earn something in return. Mr. Morrissey: Are you gettting money as cheaply these days as fifteen or twenty years ago? That is, will an issue of bonds for a certain purpose for capital account yield the com- pany as much under the present rates of interest and cost of commission and so forth as it would fifteen or twenty years ago? Mr. Atterbury: When did we get out the Washington ter- minal bonds, Mr. Willard? Mr. Willard: I do not remember, it was when I was in the West. ' Mr. Atterbury: My recollection is we got out an issue of bonds at three and a half per cent. ; I do not think you could sell that bond today, at four and a quarter, and that as about per- haps twelve years ago ; perhaps not as long ago as that, Mr. Morrissey. 731 Now, bonds issued twenty-five or thirty years ago, at that time were bearing six per cent., and they are coming due and we are taking them up. , Mr. Judson : The bonds which then paid six per cent., now bear about four and a half. Mr. Atterbury : Four and a quarter or four and a half. Mr. Willard: I would like to suggest, in line with that "thought, that it is suggested that the value of the Pennsylvania stock, which is on a six per cent, basis — the price which the pub- lic puts upon it in the daily quotations reflects the character of the credit of the Pennsylvania Eailroad, which follows this policy which Mr. Atterbury has described, in contradistinction with the credit of other companies paying the same dividends but where the same policy has not been followed. It is a matter of common knowledge today that the Penn- sylvania Eailroad can obtain money probably cheaper — just as cheap as any other railroad, in the United States, and probably cheaper thn nine-tenths of them — their credit is at least le- Jflected, in that fact. Mr. Atterbury: At any rate, as a result of the whole busi- ness, on page 58, we show the effect upon the operation of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines, East. It shows that as a result our surplus of thirteen million, one hundred and fifty eight thou- sand dollars, of which eleven million dollars has aheady gone into the property, would have been cut down to a surplus of three hundred and sixty-eight thousand dollais. The Chairman: Would have been cut down if — would have "been cut down? I do not quite understand you. Mr. Atterbury : Would have been cut down if the demands of the engineers had been acceded to, and our usual custom of treating all of our employes, as well as any class had been car- ried out. The Chairman : I understand. Mr. Judson: Have you discussed, in this paper, the ques- tion of standardization, Mr. Atterbury? Mr. Atterbury: I have, very fully. Mr. Duncan: I do not know that I have anything further to say. Mr. Duncan : I think we have as part of your testimony in the printed record, the statement to which you refer. Mr. Atterburv: No. 58. 732 58 Statement No. 28, Showing the Effect Upon the Operating Eesults fob the Year 1911, by Grant of the Engineers' Demands for Increased Compensation, Upon the Pennsyl- vania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Per cent, of Total Income Operating Revenue $201,197,367.96 91.1 Other Income 19,701,254.13 8.9 Total Income $220,898,622.09 100.0 Operating Expenses 150,531,018.20 68.2 Taxes 8,177,952.92 3.7 Rentals 6,204,812.53 2.8 Fixed Charges 13,834,363.09 6.3 Dividends 28,992,097.25 13.0 Surplus 13,158,378.10 6.0 Total $220,898,622.09 100.0 From the above surplus $13,158,378.10 the following should be sub- tracted : Engineers' demands involve in- creases in their wages amount- ing to $911,580.00 If the same percentage of increase (12.42%) be granted to all other employes, the additional increase will amount to 11,878,688.35 Total 12,790,268.35 This would leave a surplus of but $ 368,109.75 Philadelphia, Pa. July 13, 1912. 733 Mr. Shaw: Mr. Atterbury, do we have your statement, as to standardization as an exhibit, or as part of your testimony? Mr. Duncan: I think it would be better Mr. Shaw, if we could treat it as a part of the record, and have it put right in. Mr. Shaw : I think it would be preferable to have it right in the record. Mr. Duncan: We will give it to the stenographer, so the stenographer can have that part of it inserted in the record. Mr. Shaw: I find it here, but I think it should go into the printed record, for convenience. 734 11 Should Wages and Rules of Sebvtce be Standardized We contend, for reasons which will hereinafter be pointed out, that standardization of rates and regulations cannot be equitable to the Company and the employes without a standardi- zation of conditions. As a matter of fact, under a strict inter- pretation of standardization upon either a distance or time basis our rates cannot be said to be standardized, although standardi- zation upon the so-called mileage basis was nominally adopted in 1910. The Company contends that wages and rules of service should not be standardized because of the failure of standardi- zation to recognize dissimilar physical characteristics upon its various divisions and portions of the same divisions, which opin- ion is favorably touched upon in the New York Central award in the summer of 1910, as referred to on page No. 2, line No. 1 of" this argument. The more exacting nature of the service required on moun- tain divisions where maximum speed of trains is lower, particu- larly on ascending grades, and where full knowledge of condi- tions affecting control of trains on these grades, as well as a strict observance of all instructions and rules pertaining thereto, justifies the existence of a favorable differential in con- trast with dissimilar conditions where the runs are upon com- paratively level sections and whose operations are not accom- panied by so many adverse operating conditions. The varying traffic conditions existing upon the various di- visions and portions thereof to some extent justifies the exist- ence of a differential in the rate per mile paid engineers. These traffic conditions are reflected in the density of train and car movements, number of meets and passes to be made, number of general notices and orders with which engineers must be famil- iar, number of signals to be observed, size of locomotives, class of trains handled as well as the character of the service and the number of operations to be served. Service under light traffic conditions is certainly much less onerous and should be reflected in a less rate of pay more nearly corresponding to the service rendered. Statement shown on 735 pages Nos. 12 and 13 gives the variation in traffic density on selected portions of our main and brancli lines, indicating very forcibly the marked variation in traffic density, which is re- flected in the items enumerated above, tending to render the work of engineers less exacting on the light traffic divisions than on the more busy sections of our line. For example: On the Lewisburg and Tyrone Eailroad, Eastern Penna. Division por- tion, the total train movements per day is four trains, handling ^eighteen cars, whereas on the Philadelphia Division, passing Thorndale, we have two hundred and eleven train Continued on Page 14. 736 12 Statement No. 29, Showing Variation in Traffic Density (Aveeage Daily Car. and Train Movement Passing Select- ed Points) of Selected Portions of the Main and Branch Lines — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Division orBranch Pa ssing Passenger Freight Trains Cars Trains Cars Lewistown to Selins Grove Jet McClure York, Hanover and Fred- erick R. R Spring Grove.. Lewisburg & Tyrone R. R. (Erie Div. portion) Coburn Lewisburg & Tyrone R. R. (E. Pa. Div. portion) . . . .Tyrone Tyrone Div. (BEV. Br) . . . Milesburg Pomeroy & Newark Br Buck Run . . . . New Holland Branch New Holland Phila. Div. (main line) . . . .Thorndale .... Middle " " " . ...Denholm Pgh. " " " Gallitzin Indiana Branch Black Lick Popes Creek Branch Marlboro Rochester Branch Cuylerville New York Div. (main line) .Monmouth Jet. Md, Div. (main line) Bellevue Delaware Division : Townsend to Centrev'l. . .Price Massey to Chestertown. .Lambson Clayton to Oxford Kenton Georgetown to Franklin City Stockley Seaford to Cambridge. . .Oak Grove.... Harrington to Rehoboth..Broadkill 6 20 4 68 6 21 4 97 4 12 2 26 4 4* 18 8 26 28 1,508 4 8 2 50 6 27 4 5i 84 630 127 5,383 72 513 90 5,867 69 S03 135 6,407 10 36 10 155 4 16 4 55 6 20 8 244 172 1,104 102 4,429 105 618 67 2,056 4 12 2 15 4 12 2 17 4 19 4 68 S 22 13 283 4 12 4 46 6 14 2 24 *Mixed- Trains Philadelphia, Pa. July 3, 1912. 737 o N EPOS'S 3"" " 01 00 no Sn >2 oo o 42 .£0 £ ts-Tl-^t^C^tfi^OvOin cnNO ► „, ooovOHMOowvomcj, -ctoo -. , •g 3 a*^ w - q " N - ^ <* -*"< Q o I^vp "d - fi in On ,-rt in J>00 in ro m *; i 6 6 og^ Wh ina rfvo (otOHo CO CO00 01 Is. 01 VO O O O M m >> 2 o\ " " in o ■ ts.ts.00 Is. fa ON in co ro O 01 in °°. •> ". ".**.<". CO 01 " " O CONO NO in 10 n »-* "?■*«■* o <* m oo moo co N - O\00 cu H .« ro in «od o o o 00 in ON NO ts., d no" o"" rC 01 ON in invo On COO0 01 " 01 w 01 mNO n q. o On no «' ri h ti) f> * n w « h o o NO "oo m h roo «nt doo" ON no" 1—1 H w § * a m ro -=fO "? 1 "■.w N CO 01 " O O O Oa00 rs. ro 0) CU s a c c CU CU > > CU CU •S.S 5 'rt CU CD bfi CU S ~ £ 53 u CU Q. C - 1 " " S 53 | 3> CU u a en cfl en •£. S « I-! S S -i CU _cu C< CU _ cu cu A) o: C bo bo a CX Cl< Ji^ S be g ft S|s|JSiS* Jii *f 1- U C •+- <+H ^ ' cu -M O. , ,-q as ! 2 o~ 53 "" ° ' cu c ^ O o s = \ U. C L- ^ h u cj u u S S S 3 3 ft >^ ,J3»0 r; £ "^CU^ : g E bi)c3ig"' JJ abbo a > > > i> > o o « > > J atJ >s? ti ti oo to bis to-5 f» > > !> > > O rt rt g i2.a iKt3 c« cu ^ > cu 738 14 movements and 5613 ears, including both passenger and freight business. Engineers upon our lines some time since maintained that a flat mileage basis is wrong and referred particularly to the case on the Pittsburgh Division, where in establishing the rate of pay between Altoona and Pittsburgh (117 miles), the rate was fixed the same as for the Middle Division, Harrisburg to Altoona (132 miles)., claiming that this differential in. favor of the Pitts- burgh Division was due to the character or general profile of the division as compared with the Middle Division. On pages Nos. 13 and 15 is shown a statement reflecting the varying traffic and operating conditions existing upon vari- ous portions of the P. R. R. Lines East and 1911 operating rev- enues, operating expenses and operating ratio of selected branch roads, which roads are operated as portions of the P. R. R. Lines East. This exhibit shows a marked variation in the earn- ing capacity of the different branches which, to some extent, fixes the character of the service required of employes, either relatively high or low in the service scale, at a point in harmony with the earning capacity of the various divisions or portions thereof, and as well the ability of the line (ultimately the pub- lic) to pay. The operating ratio on most of these lines is now extremely high and on a number the business must be handled at a heavy loss. Standardization upon mileage basis is wrong because it ul- timately requires the non-profitable branches to handle a lower class or less dense traffic and under less exacting conditions and methods of operation to pay a standard wage, usually, if not al- ways, fixed by comparison with the most exacting conditions ob- taining on the more prosperous sections of our lines; this for the reason that the tendency is always towards the levelling up process to the higher rates rather than bringing them to the lower basis. Standardization fails to recognize that a differential in the wage scale, at least, should bear some relation to the ability of the road to pay (in reality the public), and to the varying wage scales prevailing in different parts of the territory covered by 739 our lines. A wage scale is more or less dependent upon local conditions and service rendered, taking into consideration the ability of the public and the various divisions and branches to: pay. Standardization is also inconsistent with the demands con- tained in the last paragraph of the proposed schedule presented, by the engineers and attached to, and made part of, the Arbitra- tion agreement, which, in substance, provides that existing rates of pay or better working conditions shall not be reduced by the proposed rates or rules, nor shall the General Committee of Ad- justment be debarred from taking up with their respective man- agers matters not decided at this conference. If the latter clause be approved by Continued on Page 16. 740 in Q < 03 CO CM 5 8 « CM O O o H of « w -° P Pn O O H ■a! W « CM go . O m a Q fc 00 Clrf H X cxi^ t-h^ in^ ft^ co ft_ ft_ th~ co" of of co" t-T -* co o m co oi ■* CM OI rt rj5 r-5 a ft t- O) co co £ O" CO- CO S-i co h- co O CO r*H OI Of '"I CO CO t- ■* " CO ffi 00 CO N HOONN oi t^ co in i— i c~ t- ft ft cq co o^ CO" r^T r-T ft" in o oi oi OI CO m in m ^* ft in ft o co -* c^ in" co ■* in i— I ■<* 00 00 "* 00^ 0_ CO^ r~l t-^ co o" in~ co" of -* CO 00 CO N H 00 CO 8 t- Ol OI miMH CO CO co co in co co O ^ «5 (M CO CO OJ^ t~ O^ CTJ^ of co~ in" co" ctT oi oa 05 co co ■ee- oi o O M M bjo u P CO o pq o a ^ "S o pi pq ^ =3 «8 n3 U O T3 CP ffl pq as u % as og ^ 5 .3 5P a W C ^=3 « .-5 ^ -^ ^ ^ r^ r— I r-H E3 a? cp /j Q r^ r5 CP a -a -a a cp ^g ,a .S Ph Ph pL, pl, o O o . ra . cS «' bo a a q. a rH cP ^3 dg O . Ph« 0^ *, T3 a> ^ H C 741 16 ihe Arbitration Board in the present controversy, it will enable the employes to immediately open with their respective man- agers matters of sufficient moment to become at once the basis of negotiations, possibly resulting in a repetition of strike vote. This exception to the standardization of rates very strongly exemplifies the injustice of their demands and applies particu- larly to roads like the Pennsylvania System Lines East, where, for more than half a century, new rates and adjustments in old rates have very largely been established, based upon the char- acter of the service, local conditions, ability of the employe to earn a fair wage consistent with reasonable hours of service, whether on single trip, round trip or combination of short trips .and as well the length and convenience of the lay-over, and this very largely without reference to miles run. This method of fixing rates, which we claim is the correct one, naturally results in numerous high spots, as it were, as compared with a strict mileage basis; on the other hand the application of a standard mileage rate to many of our runs would also bring about large increases on such runs so that the application of the standard mileage rate to our system with the proviso that any higher ■existing rates should not be reduced would in effect put all ou> rates in the highest class, very many of which would be above our competitors in the same territory; hence the exception is not only a violation of the petition or demands, but is also void of all elements of equity. For these reasons, this exception should be eliminated, and in case it is found to be the proper thing to establish a basic mileage rate, same would be applied regardless of whether or not the pay of certain runs would be ■decreased thereby. 741a Page 25 Statements and charts shown on pages 26 and 27 exhibit for the principal passenger and freight runs upon each Superintendent's Di- vision, the length and rate per mile based upon trip rates paid prior to and following June 1, 1910, compared with the present basic rates per mile 4.15 and 4.85 cents, respectively, for passenger and freight service ai:d the projaosed rates ot i.-tO and 4.60 cents for passenger and the proposed rates of 5.25, 5.50 and 5.75 cents for freight. From these statements and charts, it will be clearly seen that the elevations in rates made in 1910 on account of the introduction of the mileage basis alone were nominal, this being more clearly shown in case of the passenger rates in the computation of which constructive mileage based on the previously determined arbitrary number of hours did not enter. Statement shown on page 28 shows for those runs upon our Mary- land Division the present trip rates of which exceed those based upon actual mileage and the basic rate per mile 4.15 and 4.S5 cenfs per mile in the passenger and freight services, respectively. The column headed "Difference" upon this stateimnt exhibits the difference in our present trip rates and those computed upon flat basis of actual mileage and basic rates. The differences referred to upon this statement and the rates per mile now effective and in excess of our present basic rates per mile as s! own by statements on pages 26 and 27 already re- ferred to represent inequalities which would exist at present time in fa- vor of the Company were the mileage basis of rate determination strictly adhered to. While the comparatively few instances of increases which have bp'n o?cas;ored by adherence to the strict mileage basis represent, as we think, present inequalities in favor of our employes. The latter will increase in magnitude and number with any increases in the flat mileage r~>te as now demanded by the engineers and the now relatively high rates listed upon the statement, many of which would not be af- fected by any reasonable increases in the flat mileage rate, would soon represent inequalities in favor of the Company and become the basis of equitable arguments for readjustment. It would appear that the adoption of the mileage basis, as on our lires in 1910, where its application was largely nominal, is but an apparent insignificant step in the following cycle, viz: (1) Adoption of the mileage basis under conditions which ren- ders the effect of such adoption upon the Company's expenses ard the employes wages nominal, there being few trip rates actually changed thereby. The wedge, however, has been en- tered which will elevate a succeedingly greater number of longer run rates under the second step. (2) Succeeding increases in the flat rate will increase the num- ber and magnitude of inequalities in favor of the employe under the adjusted rates, and render the rates yet unchanged by the adoption of the mileage basis relatively low. (3) Break from the mileage basis by reason of the justified re- vision of rates cited under the second step as being low, with return to basis of rate determination used by us heretofore and which we contend is right, following which we would expect to be asked to re-adopt the mileage basis and repeat the cycle. Continued on Page 29. 741b Page 26 Statement and Chart Showing foe the Principal Passenger Buns upon each Superintendent's Division, the Length, the Rate Per Mile, Based upon Trip Bates Paid Prior to and Following June 1, 1910, Compared with the Present Basic Bate Per Mile — 4.15^, and the Proposed Bate of 4.40^ and 4.60^! — Pennsylvania Baileoad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Rate Per Mile. Cents. i'n.ii- [o /inn;!' [ Run Miles Philadelphia & Harrisburg 104 Philadelphia & Paoli 120 - Harrisburg & Jersey City 188 Harrisburg & Altoona 132 Philadelphia & Pottsville 190 Philadelphia & Norristo.wn 108 Tyrone & Lock Haven 122 Tyrone & Grampian 108 Altoona & Pittsburgh 114 Pitcairn & Pittsburgh 96 BlairsvUle & Pittsburgh 137 Butler & Pittsburgh 99 Monogahela City & Pittsburg 153 Jersey City & Washington 222 Jersey City & Waverly 109 Harrisburg & Williamsport 93 Lewistown Jet. & Sunbury. , 100 Baltimore & Harrisburg 84 Washington & Philadelphia 135 Baltimore & Philadelphia 95 Philadelphia & Delmar 123 Philadelphia & Harrington 90 West Chester & Philadelphia 83 Philadelphia & Perryville 144 Buffalo & Oil City 138 Pittsburgh & Oil City 134 Camden & Atlantic City 117 Camden & Cape May 166 Philada. & Atlantic City 139 Camden & Hammonton 120 Present Basic Per Mile Rate Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate for Smaller Engines Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate for Larger Engines Note: — Solid line shows rates prior to 1910. Broken line shows theJ1910 adjustments. Prior to June 1, 1910 Sinoe June 1, 1910 4.81c 4.81c 4.17 4.17 4.51 4.51 3.90 4.15 3.94 4.15 4.63 4.63 4.10 4.15 4.63 4.63 4.50 4.50 5.34 5.34 4.02 4.15 5.18 5.18 3.60 4.15 4.17 4.17 4.58 4.58 3.86 4.15 4.88 4.88 4.93 4.93 4.08 4.15 5.26 5.26 4.48 4.48 5.55 5.55 6.02 6.02 4.45 4.45 4.20 4.20 3.92 4.15 4.27 4.27 4.15 4.15 4.27 4.27 4.17 i.n — [--■ 'MW'-' T " " * ji i pi ■ ■'• Tl : '■' 1 i 1 ' 1 ! 5 1 | ''tt\ ' 531 III tate- 4.i5j£*>^ Rate- 4,40/,^, Rate - 4. CO/. " Philadelphia, Pa., July 21, 1912. 741c Page 27 Statement and Chaet Showing the Principal Freight Euns upon each Superintendent's Division, the Length, the Bate Per Mile, Based upon Trips, Rates Paid Prior to and Following June 1, 1910, Compared with the Present Basic Bate Per Mile* 4.85^, and the Proposed Rates of 5.25^, 5.50^ and 5.75^ — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Run Miles Philadelphia & Harrisburg 108 Harrisburg & Morrisville 131 Harrisburgh & Columbia 59 Altoona & Harrisburg 127 Huntingdon & Harrisburg 95 Mt. Carbon & Philadelphia 89 Tyrone & Lock Haven 106 Tyrone & Ralston 99 Pitcairn & Altoona 99 Youngwood & Altoona 105 Derry & Altoona 69 Altoona & Allegheny. 132 Shire Oaks & Conway 94 Pittsburgh & Monongahela Cy 60 Jersey City & Mantua 87 Jersey City & Harrisburg 188 Camden & Greenville 73 Harrisburg AfHoney Pot 108 Harrisburg & Williamsport 93 Baltimore & Marysville 89 Philadelphia & West Chester 54 Buffalo & Olean 138 Pittsburgh & Oil City 130 Phillipston & Pittsburgh 63 Camden & Salem 75 Camden & Atlantic City 117 Erie & Kane 95 Williamsport & Southport 74 Altoona & Mifflin 80 Columbia & Philadelphia 76 * Allowed a day prior to the beginning of overtime Rate Per Mile Hrs. Prior to June 1, 1910 Since June 1, 1910 UJ4 5.17c 5.17c 12 4.45 4.85 ll'A 9.46 9.46 12 4.60 4.85 11 5.40 5.61 11 5.62 5.99 11 4.71 5.03 11 5.05 5.38 12 5.75 5.88 11 5.43 5.54 11 7.25 7.73 12 4.17 4.85 14 6.06 7.22 12 9.61 9.61 11 5.90 6.13 20 5 15 5.16 11 7.03 7.30 11 5.44 5.44 11 5.66 5.73 11 5.62 5.99 11 9.74 5.87 14 5.02 5.02 14 5.12 5.22 12 8.05 9.25 13 8.55 8.88 13 6.58 6.83 11 5.26 5.61 11 6.77 7.20 10 5.51 6.01 11 7.67 7.67 RATES PER MILE (CENTS) Philadelphia, Pa. July 21, 1912 Present Basic Rate per Mile - 4.85< Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate 5 . 25c For Smallest Engines Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate 5.50c^ for Intermediate Sized Engs. Proposed Basic per Mile Rate 5.75c^_ for Largest Engines Note: — Solid line shows rates prior to 1910. Broken line shows the 1910 adjustments. 741d Page 28 stat 'm' kt sl-1 owing certain information in connection with Runs upon the Maryland Division for which Present Trip Rates Exceed those Based upon Actual Mileage and tie Basic Rate Per Mile 4.15 Cents and 4.85 Cents in Passenger and Freight Services, Respectively — Penn- sylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Passenger: Washington and Jersey City Philadelphia and Baltimore Baltimore and Washington Bowie and Popes Creek Delaware City and Newark Columbia & Perryville and return Perryville & Pt. Deposit & return. . Phila., Wilm'n, Lamokin & Newark. . Freight - Through: Philadelphia and Baltimore Edgemoor and Potomac Yard Edgemoor & Harrisburg (via P'Ville) . " " " (via Del. Div) Edgemoor and Baltimore " 50th St. & return . " Phila. " " Thurlow" " " " Perryville & " Edgemoor and Jersey City. " Trenton and return.. . Bay .View & Potomac Yard & return. Baltimore " " " Bay View and Harrisburg Freight - Local: Washington and Bay View. . Bay View and Perryville . . . Edgemoor and Perryville Baltimore and Washington . . Baltimore and Odenton .... Bowie and Popes Creek .... Columbia and Perryville. Philadelphia and Edgemoor. Grays Ferry and Perryville . Edgemoor and Newark Grays Ferry and Moore Trip Rates Hours Allowed Based on Actual Prior to Prior to Actual* <£ Miles Run Overtime June 1, 1910 Present Milea $9.21 ce Difference 222 $9.26 $9.27 $ .06 95 5.00 5.00 3.94 1.06 41 2.11 2.11 1.70 .41 97 4.58 5.00 4.03 .97 86 4.59 5.00 3.57 1.43 104 5.00 5.00 5.00 5.00 4.32 .68 57 2.37 2.63 77 5.00 5.00 3.20 1.80 82 - 5.00 5.00 3.40 1.60 107 5.00 5.00 4.44 .56 53 5.00 5.00 2.20 2.80 29 11 hrs. 5.00 5.26 5.00 5.33 1.20 3 80 92 4.46 .87 117 12 6.11 6.11 5.67 .44 107 llH 5.65 5.65 5.19 .461 116.5 12 8 6.11 4.14 6.11 4.14 5.65 .46 68 3.30 .84 48 8 3.92 3.92 2.33 1.591 48 s 3.74 3.88 2.33 1.551 18 5 2.08 2.42 .87 1.551 68.8 8 4.16 4.16 3.34 .82J 112 12 5.65 5.82 5.43 .391 112 12 11 5.64 5.69 5.82 5.69 5.43 .39 102 4.95 .74 93 11 5.69 5.69 4.51 1.18/ 108 11J-2 5.65 5.65 5.24 .41 87 11 5.26 5.33 4.22 1.11 65 11 5.26 5.33 3.15 2.18 70 11 5.26 5.33 3.39 1.94 80 11 5.26 5.33 3.88 1.45 36 11 5.26 5.33 1.75 3.58 97 11 5.26 5.33 4.70 .63 87 11 5.26 5.33 4.22 1.11 48 11 5.26 5.33 2.33 3.00 56 11 5.26 5.33 2.72 2.61 30 11 5.26 5.33 1.45 3.88 26 11 5.26 5.33 1.26 4.07 NOTE: — *Based on actual miles run. ^Between present trip rates and those based on Actual Milage. Philadelphia, Pa. July 21, 1912. 742 Mr. Van Hise: Before adjourning, I would like to read a statement of the question which I asked, in the form in which Mr. Veditz, the Secretary, has put it. There is an affirmation here and then the question : The expenditure of a part of earnings for improvements (above and beyond depreciation, upkeep and repairs) can be justified, as a business proposition, only upon the assumption of increased earning capacity. If, therefore, a business enterprise makes such expenditures does it not necessarily make them for the purpose of increasing its earning power — what other pur- pose could these be for? Directly or indirectly to put earnings into improvements simply means postponing the earnings for- ■the purpose of getting, in the long run, greater total earnings. If these things (that is, these improvements and expenditures) are not done for the purpose of ultimate profit, why are the expenditures justified? Mr. Atterbury: Take., for instance, a steel car. A steel car does not earn one more cent directly; it may, indirectly. Mr. Van Hise : Will it not last longer than the old car? Mr. Atterbury: We do not know. At any rate, it will cost us from 20 to 25 per cent more than the wooden car. The life may be longer. Mr. Van Hise: Doesn't the Pennsylvania Eailroad regard it as an economical and advantageous investment to build steel freight cars? Mr. Atterbury : It does. Mr. Van Hise : If it is not an economical and advantageous investment to build them, why should they go to the additional expense, and unless the adidtional expense does give an increased . earning, is the expenditure justified? Mr. Atterbury: It is. Take the passenger car — Mr. Van Hise : My question was as to the freight car. Mr. Atterbury: It is perfectly justified. Mr. Van Hise: Why? Mr. Atterbury: Because of the increased earning capacity of the freight car. Mr. Van Hise: Precisely. Mr. Atterbury: But with the passenger car, that does not hold true. 743 Mr. Van Hise : That is another question. Mr. Willard: But isn't it the fact also, Mr. Atterbury, that there are some of these . expenses you have referred to which would not show on the face, but the justification for them is found in the result of popular demand or legislative requirement; in other words, that the railroad is not a free agent? Mr. Atterbury: That is true. Mr. Willard: That would enter into it, and account very largely for many other things that the railroads do! The Chairman: Take a new station; that may not yield any more; it simply may be more comfortable and convenient and presentable. Mr. Van Hise: And it is expected, under the competitive system, to secure a larger return; otherwise, beyond a certain point, it cannot be justified, from an economic point of view; from a railroad point of view. I do not want to go into the argument now. In my opinion for instance, as illustrating my point of view, the competitive system in this country has in- troduced an elaborate, not to say extravagant, expenditure in terminals, which could not be justified on thoroughly sound econ- omic grounds if there were not competition between the differ- ent railroads, and would not be spent but for that competition. The Chairman : In the matter of some of these improve- ments, outside of the economic standpoint, does not the human question come in, that it is made more comfortable for the pas- sengers of the road, and doesn't it directly or indirectly con- tribute to increase the income? Mr. Van Hise : I am afraid I am taking the place of the wit- ness, but if I may substitute myself for the witness for a moment, and get the answer, of the witness later, it seems to me that those expenditures unquestionably do go to increasing those railroads' earning power, because one who travels selects the convenient and pleasant and comfortable route, and, therefore, these large expenditures should be made upon the belief that, upon the whole, they will give increased earning power to that railroad, otherwise, I should be curious to know what excuse, or what reason a railroad manager or president can give for the expenditure. Mr. Judson: To give another question to Mr. Atterbury, 744 take the elimination of grade crossings; that is required wholly hy public opinion, if not by public authority. That entails, at times, enormous expense. That is acceded, from considerations of public safety; that does not bring the railroad any larger income. Mr. Atterbury : Only in the very minutest degree. I will just illustrate that by saying that at one point on our line, we have had elimination of grade crossings, and that may have saved perhaps two hundred dollars a month, or $2,400 a year, on an investment of more than one million dollars that is the only actual tangible value we can show. Mr. Judson: You can capitalize that expenditure? Mr. Atterbury : I do not think we should. Mr. Judson : Haven't you a great many such cases ? Mr. Atterbury : We have. That is why I say we have spent from $12,000,000 to $20,000,000 from our surplus for the elimna- tion of such things and the construction of steel cars, and in other ways we have maintained our property, and I submit that, in order to continue that policy, rightly, or wrongly, I believe that we must have a surplus, and the application of the percentage of 12.4, I think, to the Pennsylvania Railroad, as shown in the demands of the engineers, will practically wipe out that surplus. Mr. Shaw: You have a very large new station item included in this table, which, considering the monumental character of your new terminal, may be a profitable investment in the long run, and is a sort of tribute to the demands of civilization, or the dignity of the road Mr. Atterbury : The latter. Mr. Shaw : I think it was a very desirable investment to the public. Mr. Duncan : The figures you have submitted do not include the New York terminal station. Mr. Atterbury: I don't think so. Mr. Judson : I think it so states. Mr. Duncan: That is not included. Mr. Judson : Speaking of another railroad, if the New York Centra] should build an elevated track through the City of Syra- cuse, N. Y., which happens to be in my mind just now — you know it runs through the main street of the town — do you think that should be capitalized? 745 Mr. Atterbury: In my judgment, it should not be capital- ized, because it has no earning power. Mr. Judson : That is your test ? Mr. Atterbury : That is my test — that is my individual test. Mr. Van Hise : You mean it would not have earning power ^corresponding to the expenditure? Mr, Atterbury: Yes. Of course, it has, in a measure. It would reduce operating expenses. Mr. Van Hise: And increases the speed! Mr. Atterbury : Yes, that is true, but not commensurate with the expenditure involved, and I don't know how you are going to get money without being able to show a return on it ; nobody is going to let you have it otherwise. Mr. Morrissey : If we are down to earth again, I would like ±o have you enlarge .your view on a statement you made. As I understand it, it \yas to the effect that, whenever any economies were effected by changes in operation, that you had tried to apply them in some measure to the wages of the employes. Mr. Atterbury : No, I think I said that in my judgment the -employes should profit with the corporation. Mr. Morrissey: Then, it was a general statement? Mr. Atterbury: Yes. Mr. Morrissey : I thought that in your remarks, as you read them, or stated them, at the time, that it applied to the employes in a particular class, speaking particularly, of the engineers. Mr. Atterbury : No, I am speaking of all classes. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, have you anything you want to ask Mr. Atterbury? Mr. Stone: I would like to ask him a few questions, but I suppose you will want to adjourn until to-morrow now. The Chairman: Yes. We will now adjourn until to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. ("Whereupon, at 5.25 P. M., an adjournment was taken to July 25, 1912, at 10.00 A. M.) 746 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, New York, July 25, 1912. The Chairman: Gentlemen, we will begin. W. W. AttehbtjRy resumed the stand. Mr. Atterbury : I would like to say in going over my testi- mony of yesterday afternoon, there are certain corrections that I would like to be permitted to make. The Chairman: Certainly. Mr. Atterbury : Most of them are immaterial. For Dr. Van Hise's information I might say on Table No. 10, I gave you the information that the sum could also be obtained by, — the notes read, at least, — dividing two into six. That should read two into eight. Then, in developing the tractive power of the locomo- tives, I inadvertently used the number of revolutions instead of taking 85 per cent, of the boiler pressure. Then, I said in con- nection with our superannuation fund that a portion of the in- terest of the big fund went to the superannuation fund. I was mistaken in that. All of the interest of the fund goes to the superannuation fund and the amounts vary from $3.00, to $16.00 per month, instead of $3.00, to $7.00, per month, as I stated. The Chairman: What amounts from $3.00 to $16.00. Mr. Atterbury : The amount that is paid to pensioners in ad- dition to the regular pension which we pay them. That is addi- tional from the superannuation fund to such engineers, as are members of the Relief Department. The Chairman: That addition is from $3.00, to — Mr. Atterbury: $3.00, to $16.00 per month. I said $3.00, to $7.00. The Chairman : Is that all you wish to make ? Mr. Atterbury : That is all I have, Dr. Straus. Cross-Exmaination : The Chairman : Mr. Stone, have you some questions to ask ! Mr. Stone: I would like to ask a few questions. Is it the intention to place anyone else on the stand for the lines east? 747 Mr. Atterbury: I will have to ask Mr. Duncan about that, Mr. Stone. Mr. Duncan : We had not any intention of placing any other witnesses on the stand for the Pennsylvania Lines, at least, bear- ing in mind what the Commission said about the desirability of finishing this week. We have quite a number of witnesses that are here from the Pennsylvania Lines East and, if there is any information you would like to get from them, they are avail- able. Mr. Stone : The reason why I ask, Mr. Chairman, is because I should like to ask either Mr. Atterbury, or someone from the lines, east, how they arrive at these rates which they show on their rate sheets for the different divisions ; and I thought per- haps someone might be more familiar with the details of the operation than Mr. Atterbury, who does not bother with such details. Mr. Atterbury: Well, Mr. Hoover is here, and perhaps can answer such detailed information. In general, perhaps, Mr. Stone, I can answer it. I don't know, if you will refer to the page of the testimony, or to anything I may have said, I can per- haps explain. If I cannot — Mr. Stone: It is not what you said, but in the exhibits put up by the railroads, in regard to the earning power of the men in the different classes of service in the different divisions. Mr. Atterbury : In the book of statistics ? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Atterbury: I am not prepared to pass on that because I had nothing to do with the preparation. I should suppose that Mr. Quick, or perhaps Mr. Duncan could answer any questions, or support that with the statistical data.. Mr. Stone: All right, we will take it up with one of them, then. You spoke yesterday and gave causes for color blindness. Did you understand from my opening statement that I claimed the heat from the firebox caused firemen to become color blind? Mr. Atterbury : That was my understanding, Mr. Stone. It was the inference that I drew. Perhaps I misinterpreted your statement. Mr. Stone : I should like, with your permission, Mr. Chair- man, to read from the record on page 13 just what I said. The Chairman : You may do so. 748 Mr. Stone: (Reading) "I might add that in the third year's examination the records of some of our best railroads show that 15 per cent, of the firemen are rejected on account of defec- tive eyesight." I say nothing on account of being color blind. I simply want to make the correction because I was sure the way they dwelt on it that it was misleading. I have never made the claim that the heat from the firebox makes a man color blind, but I do claim that the heat from the firebox causes 15 per cent, of the firemen to be rejected within three years Have you ever known a case of wreck occurring where it is claimed it was caused by the engineer being color blind? Mr. Atterbury : I have no personal knowledge of such a case. Mr. Stone: Do you know of any such case being on record? Mr. Atterbury : No, I have no knowledge of such a case. Mr. Stone: In regard to your Relief Department, I do not care to go into it in detail, but I would like to ask a question for my own information and bring out the importance of it. If a member goes to law to recover from the company does he get his relief? Mr. Atterbury: My recollection is that when he becomes a member of the Relief he agrees to accept the benefits under the relief, and further agrees not to sue. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that a member of the Relief, before he can receive the benefit must sign a waiver releasing the com- pany from all claims for damages. Mr. Atterbury : He signs that waiver when be makes an ap- plication : The Chairman: Makes application for membership in the Relief?. Mr. Atterbury : In the Relief. Mr. Stone: And, when he also receives his relief does he not also sign a receipt in full, releasing them from all claims for damages ? Mr. Atterbury : He does. Mr. Stone: If a Brother loses his life by accident while away from the company's premises does he receive his relief? Mr. Atterbury: My recollection is that he gets his regular death benefit, providing such loss of life is not as a result of in- toxication, or some criminal act. I will ask Mr. Hunt if I make any mis-statement, if he will 749 not kindly correct me, Mr. Straus, if I may. Mr. Hunt is our superintendent of relief. The Chairman : Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan: My attention is called to the fact that these matters about which Mr. Stone has asked are contained in the regulations of the Relief Department. We have a copy of that regulation here, if Mr. Stone would like to see it, or have it offered. Mr. Stone : I have of copy of them. Mr. Duncan : It might facilitate matters. Mr. Stone : I have had a copy of them for many years. Mr. Duncan: I thought he was asking these questions for in- formation. Mr. Stone : I wanted to bring out the matter of the relief. Mr. Duncan : We have the regulations, if the Board cares to see them, or you care to offer them. Mr. Stone: I might add, if the Pennsylvania Eelief Asso- ciation is to have any bearing on this case, as to whether or not these engineers who work on the Pennsylvania Railroad are to receive any increase in wages, then some of the details of the Relief ought to be brought out. If it has not any bearing, I cer- tainly do not care to take up the time of this Court with it. Mr. Atterbury : So far as I am concerned, Mr. Chairman, the pension fund and relief fund have absolutely no bearing on the situation. The information which I presented in connection with the pension fund and the relief fund was with the desire to edu- cate certain members of the Commission, and to furnish certain information that had been asked for, or touched upon, at the previous hearings of the Commission, and with no desire, or in- tention to influence the decision of the Commission in any way, as it has no bearing on the situation. What the Pennsylvania Railroad does in matters of that sort is done voluntarily, and the question of paying the engineers fair and equitable wages is entirely outside of that. We do that anyhow. Mr. Shaw: I would suggest that in case our Board should, for any reason, desire to go a good deal into these matters, we should not fail to obtain, on the one hand, from your Relief De- partment, its full information, nor should we fail, on the other hand, to permit Mr. Stone to give us completely his point of view about all of these things, and we would requisition such informa- 750 tion from both sides, as we need it, with a disposition to be en- tirely thorough. But, I do not believe we would gain anything by going into these things in the oral hearing. Mr. Judson : Well, I agree to that, but I think as long as the railroad company has put in these statements and no one can say what influence they might have on any member that the engi- neers should have the right to put in anything they deem proper on the matter. Mr. Shaw: I agree with that fully. I was referring to going extensively into the matter. Mr. Judson : Yes. But, I think Mr. Stone ought to be privi- leged to put in any facts, or statements, or exhibits that throw any light on this situation. Mr. Stone : I should be very glad, Mr. Chairman and gentle- men, to treat of that in detail, in the brief which I shall file. Mr. Judson : That would be entirely satisfactory. Mr. Duncan: Well, Mr. Stone, I thought you might have got the impression that we are offering the Pennsylvania Relief Department as a justification for not increasing wages. The Pennsylvania Relief Department has not been injected into this matter for the purpose of getting either a clean bill of health for the Pennsylvania Relief Department, or getting the approval of the Board, as to its methods. The statistics which were offered yesterday, Mr. Stone, were offered in response to some inquiries in relation to some fatalities and things of that kind, and only for that purpose. Mr. Judson : Still, Mr. Duncan, I think it only fair that no matter whether you offered it for a definite purpose or not, the thing is given, and both sides should be privileged to give all they know about it. Mr. Duncan: I have no objection to that theory, in general, excepting I wanted to make the Board, as well as Mr. Stone, understand that we were not trying to inject it, because Mr. Stone does not like to have it injected into it. The Chairman: I can see this — the members of the Board may think differently — that the provisions that have been made by the various railroads for the pensioning of engineers may have some bearing upon the question of compensation- in con- nection with the average duration of the working period, or 751 years, of engineers in the service. Now, how the members of the Board may feel on that subject I do not know. Mr. Van Hise: If Mr. Stone covers anything of that kind, since we have a large amount of testimony — if Mr. Stone covers "in his brief all that is essential to what has been said, that is satisfactory, as far as I am concerned. The Chairman : That would be perfectly satisfactory, as far as I am concerned' and I think would be perfectly satisfactory to every member of the Board. Mr. Stone: It may be that would be entirely satisfactory to me, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps I misunderstood Mr. Duncan, but it looked to me like it was brought in with a view of giving a clean bill of health to tble Pennsylvania Railroad, as a great philanthropic institution. I think it has nothing to do with the wage scale in this discussion. Mr. Duncan : We disclaim any such intention, as we did not think it was necessary. Mr. Judson: We understand that. Mr. Stone: Are the conductors and trainmen on the Penn- sylvania Railroad paid standard pay? Mr. Atterbury: Why, I though I explained yesterday, Mr. Stone, that in the application of the New York Central award, such conductors on the Pennsylvania Lines, East, as were get- ting less wages on the scale applied were brought up, in agree- ment with that scale of wages. The Chairman? There is one thing in my mind which is not clear, which is presupposed in a number of questions that are asked. Take your last question, "Are the conductors and trainmen on the Pennsylvania Railroad paid the standard pay" ■ — what do you mean by that, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone: The going wage in the eastern territory that is considered standard pay, or what has been adopted by the conductors and trainmen, as standard pay on the lines east of Chicago. Mr. Morrissey: As a result of the application of the award of 'the New York Central to the rates paid conductors and train- men on the Pennsylvania Railroad, there still remains certain rates that are higher than the so-called standard, for those classes, do there not? Mr. Atterbury : A great many. Mr. Morrissey: Then, if a standard were applied for engi- neers, as proposed, it would also leave certain wages for engi- neers higher than the proposed standard, might it not? Mr. Atterbury: At the time we applied the New York Cen- tral award to the condnctors and trainmen, we also applied the principle of the award to the engineers, if my recollection serves me correctly, and as a result, a number of the engineers who were already getting well paid, in accordance with our principle- of pay, are now overpaid, as are the conductors who were- affected by the application of the New York Central award. Mr. Morrissey: Didn't that grow out of a condition that ob- tained on the Pennsylvania Eailroad for a number of years, that in making their rates, they based the wage of the employe on a twelve hour day, whereas other roads based the daily rate, or the rate for 100 miles, on a ten hour day? Mr. Atterbury : Why, we had a twelve hour day, and we had an eleven hour day, and we had a ten hour day, and we had a Derry day, and we had a Huntingdon day ; it all depended on Ike- division on which the days were worked, and in some cases we had turn-arounds, but in every case the rate that we paid for that particular day's work was a fair and equitable one. Now, Mr. Straus raises a question I am not clear whether the- Commission understands exactly how the application of this rate works; but to give you a little sidelight on the situation, for in- stance, on our Pittsburgh Division, which originally was 117 miles, the next division was the Middle Division, which is 131 miles. Those originally were paid on a twelve hour basis, and paid exactly the same rate. "We shortened up the run on the- Pittsburgh Division, by the construction of a new yard, until, in my recollection, the length of that freight division now is prob- ably 90 odd miles— 91 or 92 or 93 miles. Now, when we applied the mileage rate to that, if we had applied a mileage rate equitably; that is, the rate of $4.85 per 100 miles, that would have brought down the rate on the Pittsburgh Division, because it was under 100 miles. It would also have brought down the overtime limit, which was twelve hours, to ten hours and thirty minutes, unless you were using the actual minutes. "With the Middle Division, it increased the rate from $4.85, we will say, for a twelve hour day, 753 to 131 times the mileage rate, and it did not, at the same time, increase the overtime from twelve hours to 13.01, or whatever it would be. In other words, on the Middle Division the men got the benefit of the mileage rate, but not the disadvantage of the increased length of time before overtime began. On the Pittsburgh Division they retained the advantage of the high rate, and did not get the disadvantage of the reduced rate, due to the short mileage. Now, in addition, the Pittsburgh Division is still, I think, on a twelve hour overtime basis. Mr. Morrissey: Is that your understanding of the applica- tion of the New York Central award to a situation of that kind! Mr. Atterbury : That is my understanding of the application of the New York Central award to the Pennsylvania Lines, East, where we said that we would not affect those who were already high, and we would apply that award, where, under existing rates our rates were lower than the application of that award. Now, that applied, if I am not mistaken, equally to engineers, -conductors, trainmen and firemen. Mr. Stone: Is it not the fact that prior to 1906, when you paid on a trip basis, that you had sometimes as many as twenty different rates on the same division? Mr. Atterbury: I should not be surprised. I don't know that it is the fact, but I should not be surprised, Mr. Stone, if that were true. Mr. Stone: Isn't it also true that when you gave the so- called voluntary increase in 1906, of ten per cent., that you simply applied it flat on every rate then in existence ; you added ten per cent? Mr. Atterbury: We applied that in 1906 to every employe who was getting under $250, as I remember it. That included piece work rates, it included all of our employes in all services. Mr. Stone: Didn't that have a tendency to create the very thing you bring out now; that is, high peaks — didn't it make the differences that then existed, wider? Mr. Atterbury: If a man in service was already getting a fair rate, and a man in the shop was already getting a fair rate, if we felt that it was advisable to increase ten per cent., I see no reason why every one in the service should not have got it 754 exactly on the same basis, and by doing so we retained, as be- tween the various services, a differential that has been measure- ably constant for many, many years. Mr. Stone : The point I am trying to bring out is' that is the very thing you complain of, and this row of mountain peaks you show on this blue-print is something that the company cre- ated themselves and not the men, is it not? Mr. Atterbury: I am not complaining about the mountain peaks, Mr. Stone. I am only showing the application of the so-failed standard rate, and its inequity to the Pennsylvania Railroad. Mr. Stone: But, in the increase of 1906, the engineers em- ployed on the Pennsylvania Railroad had nothing to clo with the distribution of that amount? Mr. Atterbury : Nor, had any other employe. It was a grat- uitous division by the Pennsylvania Railroad, of additional i.et turnings. Mr. Stone: Then you simply make the claim that the wide variation in rates on each division was due to the relative value of the different runs? Mr. Atterbury : That is my claim. Mr. Stone: Have you any other electric service than the West Jersey & Seashore? Mr. Atterbury : We have our New York Tunnel service run- ning from Manhattan Transfer to Sunnyside yard. Mr. Stone : Is that all you have ? Mr. Atterbury: What other have you in mind? Mr. Stone: Have you not some service up-oountry? Mr. Atterbury : What particular service have you in mind, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone: Those cars that are coming in on two or three of the different divisions up there, two places at least. Mr. Duncan: The L. &. T. Branch? Mr. Atterbury: What is the other one? Mr. Stone: That is the only one, the L. &. T. Branch, he says. Mr. Atterbury : We have a branch called the Lewisburg & Tyrone- absolutely unprofitable. We are trying to get the farm- ers interested in the railroad country now and trying to get them to plant orchards and things of that sort, to see if we 755 cannot make it profitable. A trolley line was built through the territory and came to us and wanted to get across the Susque- hanna Eiver and into Montandon. We maintained a passenger service and they offered to do our passenger service for us and enhance the passenger service by running more frequent cars. We permitted them to run on our line a portion of their distance and cross the bridge and into Montandon, and we were enabled to take off an unprofitable passenger service, and the people of the territory are better served to-day than they ever were before. We have no interest in that line whatever, Mr. Stone, except as a line which operates over our line, for which we are properly reimbursed. Mr. Stone : In the West Jersey case you recognized the prin- ciple of assigning runs to your engineers, did you not? Mr. Atterbury: I stated yesterday it had been our prac- tice in our electrification to give those positions to steam engi- neers, but I objected to a decision by the Commission that would make that action on our part obligatory. Mr. Stone: When you leased these rails to the other com- pany was it simply done, for the purpose of the cheap handling of trains — this Montandon- Mifflinburg Line? Did you not have experienced men who could have manned those cars? Mr. Atterbury : We had nothing to do with that, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone: You lea£ed the service though, that removed some of your old men from the service, did you not? Mr. Atterbury: We did. Mr. Stone: Have you a rule in your agreement with your engineers that new runs and permanent vacancies will be as- signed to the oldest bidder? Mr. Atterbury: I presume we have. Mr. Stone: Does not this electric service appear on your time table? Mr. Atterbury: What electric service? Mr. Stone: Between Montandon and Mifflinburg. Mr. Atterbury: I presume it does. Mr. Stone : Were they not new runs when they were put on your time card? Mr. Atterbury: Perhaps so. Mr. Stone: Did not your engineers on that division bid for them? 756 Mr. Atterbury: I don't know. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the Hudson & Manhattan service and the cheap rate of settlement that I made. Do you consider the service on the Hudson & Manhattan through the McAdoo tubes and the service on the West Jersey & Seashore the same? Mr. Atterbury : I think the Hudson & Manhattan service is materially more difficult than that of the West Jersey & Sea- shore. Mr. Stone : The Hudson & Manhattan or the McAdoo tube are not large enough for standard equipment' are they ? Mr. Atterbury: No. Mr. Stone : Is it not simply a competitor of the Interbor- ough in the same class of service! Mr. Atterbury: I do not understand that it competes with the Interborough, Mr. Stone, except possibly between where the upper tube starts in Manhattan Island and its uptown service at 33rd Street. There is practically no competition between those two lines, and I doubt if anybody desiring to go uptown would get on a Hudson train at Church Street, cross into Jer- sey under the river and cross back again and then get out at 33rd Street, as between the Interborough straight tube up to 33rd Street. Mr. Stone : It is a fact that you could cross into Jersey and up to 33rd Street quicker than you could go on a Broadway sur- face car? Mr. Atterbury: It is possible, but you have the Sixth Avenue and Ninth Avenue Elevated and Broadway surface, and you have the Interborough subway line. I doubt if very many people are using the McAdoo tube between down-town and up- town in New York. However, I have no facts on that, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : You stated yesterday that the employes by their request, that is before this Board of Arbitration, demanded con- tinuous employment. What is there to draw any such inference from? Mr. Atterbury: If I made such a statement, Mr. Stone, I did not mean it exactly as you have said it. My recollection was that I tried to make it plain that the effect of a decision that in electrifying any branches or lines, that steam engineers 757 should be used, would be practically that of guaranteeing each engineer continuous employment, and that therefore there was in that question a great deal more than appeared on the sur- face. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that any employe is subject to discipline, at any time! Mr. Atterbury: Yes. Mr. Stone : Then, how can any man demand continuous em- ployment along the line of a guarantee that he should always be kept in service, regardless of what the quality of his service may be ! Mr. Atterbury: Well, of course, there is always the possi- bility of a man doing something that he ought not to do, for which he is bound to receive dismissal. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the conference that developed with the other roads on this same electric service question. Did the Pennsylvania make a similar settlement with conductors and firemen ? Mr. Atterbury : They did, but that simply postponed the de- cision of the question. It did not settle the question. Mr. Stone : Mr. Chairman, I would like, in view of the fact that Mr. Willard made the statement the other day that the other organizations objected to the article that we had sub- mitted to arbitration, and in view of the fact that Mr. Atter- bury says that they had this conference with the conductors and trainmen, I would ask that the Pennsylvania Company be re- quested to file a copy of that settlement reached with those ■other organizations, and the stenographic notes of the meeting, explaining what their understanding of that agreement was. And, I should be glad to file with the Commission the corre- spondence that passed between myself, Mr. Carter, the Presi- dent of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Engineers, and with Mr. Garretson, the President of the Order of Eailway Conductors, and Mr. Lee, President of the Order of Eailway Trainmen, for your information. I think it is only fair to ask, in view of the fact Mr. Willard has brought out the fact these other organizations objected and in view of the fact I was informed by Mr. Symes, who was here yesterday a member of the Order of Trainmen who 758 wrote the agreement himself that the Pennsylvania entered into, with his organization, last week— I think that agreement should be filed here as an exhibit with this Board. Mr. Atterbury : I will be very glad indeed, Mr. Straus and -gentlemen, to file a copy of the stenographic notes of all our interviews with our men, which are taken by a court stenog- rapher, as in this case. We have full stenographic notes of all of our meetings for years and years back, and in this case I will be very glad to file with you gentlemen a copy of the stenog- raphic notes of the interview with the General Manager and the Committee of our employes. The Chairman: I would ask, Mr. Stone, what is the exact point you have in mind. Probably that can be cleared up with- out this additional record. Mr. Stone: The point I have in mind is this: We request control of this electric service, or motor service, and I can prove by correspondence that I will submit, and can prove the authen- ticity of it if it is doubted, that in that view I am supported by the other three organizations, and to corroborate that same point that the Pennsylvania Company does recognize that prin- ciple I want them to file the recent settlement they have made- with the other three organizations. The Chairman : That is allowed and so directed. Mr. Duncan: In that connection should you not file all the correspondence, or records you may have of any other organiza- tions that may be interested in that particular question as, for instance, the organizations that are interested in motormen and other electric service? Mr. Stone : Mr. Duncan, there is no correspondence that I have had with any other organizations. In fact, the locomo- tive engineers only recognize and do business with the other three organizations, and that is all the correspondence I have had. Any files in my office I will be very glad to furnish. Mr. Duncan: Well, it is a fact, however, that the organiza- tion that includes the men that are engaged in interurban street railroad service may have an issue with you on that question. Mr. Stone : Not on the lines of the Pennsylvania, nor on any of these steam lines here represented. Mr. Duncan : Not even with the New York Central ? 759 Mr. Stone : The New York Central lias some discussion, yes, and it has not been settled yet. Mr. Duncan : Well, I want the Commission, if it is going into that question, to be sure that it has the viewpoint of all the organizations on the question of whether Mr. Stone's organiza- tion should have the exclusive right to operate the power of these railroads, whether it is electric, steam, or even air, as he put it earlier in the proceeding. The Chairman: Specifically what do you want, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: I have not anything specific, Mr. Straus, be- cause I have not been advised of all the proceedings. The Chairman: What is your request? Mr. Duncan : I merely request Mr. Stone, if he has any other correspondence with any other organization, that that also should go in ; and Mr. Stone says that he has not. Of course that would ■ end it. But, if the Commission is going into that, of course I would want an opportunity Mr. Stone : If the Chairman will permit me for a minute, I will explain that. Mr. Mahon, of the Amalgamated Street Railway, has a num- ber of working agreements with the New York Street Railway, who control the street railways of a number of large cities in New York, and also control the Interurban and some three of those roads — I am speaking at random — I have not my files here — we have working agreements with, and we have the question up now, on two of them, where Mr. Mahon claims, owing to the fact they control the street car end of it in the cities over which we claim no jurisdiction, that they should also control the interur- ban end of it. And, Mr. Andrews called me up on the 'phone and asked me if I would meet Mr. Mahon ; but, so far as any cor- respondence having passed between Mr. Mahon and my self, there isn't any in existence, and we wouldn't recognize Mr. Mahon 's right for a minute to dictate who is going to handle the power of the steam railroads of the country, even where they become -electrified. Mr. Duncan : Have you in mind that you are undertaking to -extend your jurisdiction to subways and to classes of service of that kind? Mr. Stone: For the information of the gentlemen I will say we did have control of subways and unfortunatelv lost it in a 760 sympathetic strike in support of the electrical workers on the lnterborough. We have controlled the Brooklyn Rapid Transit and some time in the future, the day is not far away, we will again have control of the lnterborough, regardles of Mr. Hed- ley's statement to the contrary. Mr. Duncan: And, Mr. Mahon's organization, as I under- stand it, has some jurisdiction over some of these roads you are speaking of? Mr. Stone: No, sir, has no working agreement with any of them. You said yesterday, Mr. Atterbury, that when this line was electrified to Manhattan, these steam men who were withdrawn were taken care of. Is it not the fact it affected the promotion, of every man who was looking for promotion on the New York: Division, by placing these thirteen men back! Mr. Atterbury: It is true. Mr. Willard: Mr. Atterbury, if that competing line which; . you have spoken of had been constructed and had taken business from your line, would not it have had the same effect, practically, on the men? i Mr. Atterbury : It would have had a materially more serious effect, Mr. Willard, and I thought I made that plain ; I attempted to make it plain yesterday, in explaining the situation. Mr. Stone: Mr. Chairman, if you will pardon me, I think there is a wide difference between the two. If the business of a road simply dies out, and there is no work for the men, it is one thing, but when you lease it to another company and deprive the men who have been there of the work, it is quite a different thing entirely. (Addressing Mr. Atterbury). You objected yesterday to- our method of classification of these different engines. Is it not possible to find objection to any method of classification? Mr. Atterbury: No doubt. Mr. Stone: You also stated yesterday, as to the operation of a train, that, when a signal is against a man now, he stops. How long does he stand there after he stops? Mr. Atterbury: It depends on whether it is a fixed signal, or an automatic signal. If it is an automatic, he stops — I think he stops a minute — whether he simply comes to a full stop and then 761 proceeds, I am not sure perhaps he comes to a full stop and then proceeds. It used to be a minute, is my recollection, in the early days with the automatic; now he comes to an absolute stop and then proceeds. Mr. Stone: You stated it is possible for a man to go over the road without train orders. Is it not the fact that many of these special instructions in your time cards largely take the place of train orders? Mr. Atterbury: Yes. Mr. Stone: You stated that men take orders over the tele- phone, and that it was always at a tower where they stop, with a towerman there. How about many of your branches that are unattended block stations; don't the men have to get orders there? Mr. Atterbury : I thought I spoke yesterday with regard to •our telephone in two instances only, at the end of the siding that Mr. Packer referred to, and the other case that I have re- ferred to, where a man might want to use a switch between towers. Now, we have very many branches in our coal regions th.it are operated by telephone, in accordance with the rules of the American Eailway Association and it has enabled us by so do- ing, to materially reduce the time of the trains operating on those branches. Our business is served largely by the coal trains starting from Deny, or from Altoona to the regions, with two engines, and one engine will go up one branch and another engine will go up another branch, with some of the empties, and bring down the loads. In the old days it was the custom to leave a switchman at the junction until the man went up and came down, so as to pro- tect him. Now, he takes half of his crew up one branch and half of his crew up another branch, and if a man comes there and wants to use that branch, he gets permission to do so over the telephone from the despatchev. It gives the train crew the benefit of their full crew, they can get the work done much more expeditiously, and the men get to their homes much more readily. It is an economic move of value to both the employes and the company. Mr. Stone : Of the 202 engineers on the pension roll, have yon any data as to their average age? 762 Mr. Atterbury : I haven't, Mr. Stone, but all of them must be over 65. I have no doubt that within two or three hours I could get you the average age, in fact, the actual age, of every man on the pension roll, but they must be over 65. Mr. Stone : It is not materal. Mr. Morrissey : Is that the age of retirement ? Mr. Atterbury : Seventy is the age of retirement, absolutely. Sixty-five is the age of retirement (through physical disability. A man simply has to announce that he is physically disabled, and he is examined by a board of physicians, and if disabled, he is put upon the pension roll at 65, providing, I think, that he has had thirty years service, perhaps. Mr. Stone : How do you reconcile the large number of men, 202, on the Pennsylvania Lines East, with the tabulated state- ment of figures showing the ages of all engineers? That table only shows one-half of one per cent, that are beyond 60 years of age of the 31,000. Mr. Atterbury ; Well, I don 't suppose, Mr. Stone — as I say, I am not responsible for that statement, and I am not com- petent to discuss it, but I should hardly imagine that in refer- ring to the Pennsylvania Railroad, it would show any engi- neers over 70 years of age, in that statement. I do not know that it does, and I do not know that it does not. Mr. Stone : But, the statement of all railroads combined, of the 52, only shows 1,600 and some men, one-half of one per cent, beyond 60. I was wondering if you had any data as to why so many of your men came to the pensioning age and were pensioned, when there are so few in the whole eastern terri- tory who are beyond 60 years of age? Mr. Atterbury: That I cannot answer. Mr. Stone: Is there a charter for the Montandon & Mifflin- burg Eailroad of Pennslyvania'? Mr. Atterbury: I believe so. Mr. Stone: Don't they run every mile of the way over your line, over the line that you leased them? Mr. Atterbury: Why, it is not my understanding so, Mr. Stone. You may be correct, but it is not my understanding. Mr. Stone : You spoke of $100,000,000 increase in improve- ments that the Pennsylvania has made. Do the engineers share in the profits of those improvements ? 763 Mr. Atterbury: They do. Mr. Stone : In what way! Mr. Atterbury: If there are any profits to it, at all, they share in all of the benefits, just as every other employe does. That is onr reason, Mr. Stone, for believing that the application of a flat increase on a percentage basis to all of our employes is the only equitable way to adjust wages with our employes. Mr. Stone : Do you make the claim that cutting down grades, whereby a man could handle heavier tonnage— you would ac- knowledge, of course, that it is a decided improvement to the company? Mr. Atterbury: Yes. Mr. Stone : "Would the engineer share in that? Mr. Atterbury: Why, he would share only as much as the engineer on a branch, who didn't come within a thousand miles of that reduction in grade did, and he had just about as much influence in connection with the reduction in grade as the en- gineer on that branch 1,000 miles away has. He has absolutely nothing to do with it. Mr. Stone: Don't you increase his labors? Mr. Atterbury : Not at all. Mr. Stone: Would you take the position that there is no increased labor with a heavier tonnage train? Mr. Atterbury : If we do, we pay him for it. Mr. Stone: On any fixed proportion? Mr. Atterbury: Not at all. We pay him for it in the in- dividual case, or the individual adjustment. Mr. Stone: Would the application of these standard rates that we ask for increase the wages in any way at these high points you speak of on the Pennsylvania? Mr. Atterbury: It would not, nor would it decrease them, unless the commission should decide to apply a standard rate alike to the company and to its employes. Mr. Stone : Could you give me any idea of what the rate is between Pitcairn and Altoona, in freight service? Mr. Atterbury: I should suppose it was $4.85. I am not sure, Mr. Stone. That is subject to correction. Mr. Stone : Well, I am sure — if you will pardon me for in- terrupting — that the rate is wrong, because the schedule I have gives it as $5.82. 764 Mr. Atterbury: Well, I am glad it is so much, more than that. It is worth it. Mr. Stone: I agree with you; it is worth it. What would be considered a full month's work? Mr. Atterbury: Well, Mr. Stone, a full month's work would depend altogether on the kind of run that the man had. A full month's work with a man on a seven day passenger run would be the number of days hi the month, provided, if he had a turn-around run like Mr. Packer's, from Jersey City to Wash- ington, which he does in one day — he might get eleven turn- arounds in a calendar month of thirty days, or he might get but nine, depending upon whether it was a 30 day month or a 28 or 29 day month. Now, with a passenger run of six days, the full time for that man is six days a week. For a local freight run that does not run on Sundays, six days a week. For a fast freight run, if it is assigned, it depends upon whether the fast freight runs every day in the week, or only six days a week. With our pool crews, I am not sure but the full time may vary ; I am not sure but on the Middle Division full time may be 25 days, or perhaps on the Philadelphia Division, full time may be 26 days. With a Sunday shifter, full time, I assume, is every day in the week. With a six day shifter, it is six days a week. Mr. Stone : Coming back to your Pitcairn and Altoona run, you have a . number of runs over the mountain on which the rate is $5.82; it would be a fair estimate to figure a month of 30 days — what I am trying -to get at, Mr. Atterbury, is how, in your Exhibit 14, on sheet 3, you get any such rate in the through service for the Western Division? Mr. Morrissey : You mean Exhibit 9, don 't you, Mr. Stone ? Mr. Atterbury: I will have to — as I said, Mr. Stone, on those exhibits I am not prepared, because that information was sent to Mr. Quick, asked for in certain way, and T cannot pass upon the correctness of this information. I should prefer to have Mr. Quick, or whoever prepared this statistical informa- tion, explain it. Mr. Judson: I do not know that I understood one of your answers a minute ago, Mr. Atterbury, in reply to Mr. Stone, in regard to trains of heavy tonnage, you said you made an 765 individual adjustment. You did not mean that you adjusted the compensation to each individual train? Mr. Atterbury : I mean this, Mr. Judson. If, in our judg- ment, the application of the heavy power to the men would mean more real work, that those particular men would get more money. Mr. Judson : In that clas of cases. Mr. Atterbury : Yes, covered by that particular situation. But, that would be no justification for extending that increase to every other man in the service. In other words, our endeavor has been, as I have explained before, to meet the work with the proper compensation. Mr. Morrissey: In Exhibit No. 9, in which the rates for passenger service are given for your companies, I find rates of $4.15 and $4.28. The rate of $4.15 is stated to be for all en- gines unless otherwise specified. Is that rate an average of the division rates, or is it intended to imply that that is an average rate, for passenger engineers per man, on the entire system? Mr. Atterbury: I take it that $4.15 is the base rate. Mr. Morrissey: In applying the proposals of the engineers from which you give us Exhibit No. 2, the estimated increase in passenger and freight, was that applied to these figures, the basing rate, or was it applied to the actual trip tickets of the engineers on each division? Mr. Atterbury: I don't know, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Lee: The time cards were taken. Mr. Atterbury: The time cards were taken, Mr. Lee says. Mr. Stone : I should like t6 have someone on the stand from the Pennsylvania Lines east, in regard to some of these figures, whoever is the authority for them, or who can explain them. Mr. Duncan : What is the scope of the inquiry ; and we will put someone on the stand to explain them? Mr. Stone : The scope of the inquiry is how you arrive at these figures on Exhibit 14, sheet 3, showing the maximum and minimum rates. You also have another sheet showing what men can earn under present conditions. Mr. Duncan: We would not have anyone here who could give that information, because that is a matter of bookkeeping. But, we have the supporting data, and that is one of the things I understand the statisticians of the Commission are to 766 investigate. I do not believe it would profit any of us to put any one of the operating men on the stand who happen to be here today and ask him about those particular figures. "We can put him on the stand for you if you want it, however. Mr. Judson : We would be very glad, Mr. Stone, if you chal- lenge any of these figures to have them explained. Mr. Stone: He has just said there is no use to put any of these operating men on in regard to these figures. If that is so, there is no use of wasting any time. Mr. Duncan : That is not quite correct, Mr. Stone. The Chairman : You know, Mr. Stone, we have selected three statistical experts? Mr. Stone: Yes. The Chairman : Now, I would be very glad to have you call' attention to any of these exhibits, or to any figures that you de- sire to have analyzed and elucidated. Mr. Stone : I will just call his attention to all of them, and I challenge any of the gentlemen present to show in their figures any run where a man earned the amount they have shown here, the maximum amount, on any assigned run. Mr. Duncan: Of course, we are not accepting any such gen- eral challenge as that. We believe every statement in these ex- hibits is correct, and if he thinks any one of them is not correct, we will be glad to let the Board investigate the accuracy of that particular one, or as many as the Board wants. Mr. Van Hise : Possibly I could explain the method in which the Commission have decided to work in this regard, as it may expedite matters somewhat. Mr. Morrissey and I have gone through these tables in a general way and we have decided to adopt the principle that when any table is likely to influence our judgment in regard to our award, that those figures must be verified by our own statisticians, and we have decided upon cer- tain tables which we thought would influence our judgment and shall decide upon others, and any member of the Board who thinks that any table is likely to influence his judgment, that table with the fundamental data will be gone into, and the Board will become satisfied that the figures are correct which they use be- fore they are used. We expect our statisticians will spend weeks upon that, and possibly a much longer time. And, in that respect I would state that any tables, which Mr. Stone regards as espec- 767 ially important from his point of view, we will see that those tables are gone into. Mr. Duncan: If you have any particular runs here, Mr. Stone, on this statement, Exhibit No. 14, which you wish us to bring in, I am told we could probably produce them, within jbl reasonable time, the time slips themselves, giving the name and the run and the amount paid. But, of course, I do not un- derstand you want us to bring all of that data here to-day. Now, if you will pick out any two or three of them we could probably- telegraph for it and get it here for you. Mr. Stone: I will pick out one for you. Take those runs between Pitcairn and Altoona, on the Western Pennsylvania .Division' on through freight. Mr. Duncan : In Exhibit 14, sheet 3 ? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Duncan: Which division do you want! Mr. Stone: The Western Division, on both thorough freight and passenger, Pennsylvania Lines Ea,st. Mr. Duncan: Pennsylvania Lines, East, under the heading Western Division, minimum $133.40 and maximum $234.85, average $152? Mr. Stone: I do not care anything about the average, but I should like you to show me some man in regular passenger service who earns $234, or some man in regular through freight service who earns $208.55. Mr. Duncan : Anything else on that ? Mr. Stone : I should like to have the name of the man and the time tickets, if possible. The point I want to bring out and what I want to show to this Board is, what is considered full timet It is utterly impossible for a man to do it unless he works two months in one. Mr. Duncan: Some of these rules that you are suggesting would give an opportunity to do that. Mr. Stone: And, take your Western Pennsylvania Divi- sion' where you show a man on local freight Mr. Duncan: Let me get that — Pennsylvania Lines East, or West? Mr. Stone: Pennsylvania Lines East, Western Pennsyl- vania Division, where you show a man in yard service 768 Mr. Duncan: What sheet is that on? Mr. Stone: The same sheet. Mr. Duncan: Local freight! Mr. Stone : No, yard service, switching. Mr. Duncan: Now, what is the amount there, $186? Mr. Stone: That $186.82. I don't know what kind of hours a man worked to earn that. Mr. Morrissey: What rate are you speaking of? Mr. Stone : Still on the Pennsylvania Lines, East, the same division, Western Pennsylvania, sheet 3, of Exhibit 14. The Chairman: Under switching. Mr. Stone: Take your local freight on the same division- maximum $202.85 in local freight. Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Stone: Gentlemen, I want to say to you, if our mem were really earning this money they show as the maximum rate- a man can earn, we would adjourn our case in five minutes, and' say we have no case. Mr. Duncan: We do not want the Commission to under- stand we are as much interested in the maximum, as we are in. the average, because we think that is more illustrative. Mr. Stone : Take another illustration. Perhaps this can be- answered. Take the Baltimore & Ohio. Mr. Duncan: That is sheet No. 1 of the same exhibit? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; on the Pittsburgh division, in passen- ger service. Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Stone: Maximum of $269.50. Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Stone: I have the figures of all the runs on that divi- sion. There isn't a man that comes anywhere near any such earning. The Chairman : You want proof of that ? Mr. Stone: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : Is that all, Mr. Sione ? Mr. Stone: Oh, that is just a few of them. I question all of them along the same line. Mr. Duncan : Those are the few you want us to get the sup- porting data for, before the hearing is concluded? Mr. Stone: Yes. 769 Mr. Willard : Mr. Chairman, I would like to say with special reference to the Baltimore & Ohio, as long as that has been referred to, that it is my understanding that it is not claimed by these tables that the men constantly make these higher figures. Mr. Duncan : That is right. Mr. Willard : Particularly, the Baltimore & Ohio. The claim is this : In some particular month a particular man did make and was paid the particular sum that is set forth in the tables. Of course, if that is not so, then the tables are absolutely false and misleading, with reference to the Baltimore & Ohio, it is a fact, or at least it is believed to be a fact, that, in a month, a man did make that money. Now, that is submitted for what it is worth, not as to the average, but as to the possibilities. Mr. Duncan : I might add also, that we are not going to say that $158, or the $269, is the ordinary compensation any of these gentlemen receive. It is the average, we are interested in. And, it may be that we have made one or two mistakes in these calcu- lations. In the vast amount of work and the number of men by whom these compilations necessarily must be made, there might be one or two mistakes ; but, we state confidently that the exhibits are correct, and if there are any mistakes, we would be glad to correct them. The Chairman: I wish to say on behalf of the Commission that if Mr. Stone, in his brief, will direct our attention to any figures in the exhibits that he regards important and which he challenges, we will be very glad to have him do so, in addition to the investigations that we are going to make at our own in- stigation. Mr. Stone : I should be very glad to. The Chairman : We will take up those that you point out. Mr. Stone: It will be necessary to file a brief, then, Mr. Chairman, as big as this book, because I am going to question all of these figures where they show such earnings as that, because our men are not earning them in regular service. There may be some extreme case where a man was working, as an extra man and turned out the minute his time was up, and in bad weather, and for once in his lifetime made that; but when the statement is made that men regularly assigned to runs on regu- lar passenger service make it, I take it that means men who are 770 regularly assigned to work on regular runs, and I cannot make any other meaning out of it. Mr. Eidlitz : How would it meet the situation, Mr. Chairman, if the roads and the engineers would agree that for the purpose of this Commission making up its mind, as to the compensation engineers are receiving that only the average should be con- sidered in these tables? Mr. Stone : Mr. Eidlitz, with your permission, I do not even think that is fair. Take, for example, the Erie shows $202, on a pusher. The only way they can get that rate is the Erie owns three Mallet engines and generally one of them is in service, as a pusher. Yet they show it possible for a man to earn $202 for a pusher. While the statement is perhaps correct, perhaps one man on a Mallet could earn it, but there is only one engine of that type in that class of servce, and no discrimination is made for the other engines in that class of service, so the average does not mean anything. Mr. Duncan: The average, Mr. Eidlitz, is not fair either, because it includes the wages of a great many men who are confessedly at the bottom of the list working up, and are not entiled to the same amount of pay. Mr. Judson: Men who are what? Mr. Duncan : At the bottom of the list ; these fair runs, and things of that kind. Mr. Stone : I would be glad to take this matter up with your statistician instead of taking up the time of this Board. Mr. Van Hise : It would, take months to do it here. The Chairman : I would be glad to have you do so. Mr. Stone : All right. Mr. Atterbury, what are the instruc- tions for engineers on the Pennsylvania Road taking train orders over the telephone? Mr. Atterbury : Why, I cannot give you that in detail, Mr. Stone, but I have no doubt Mr. Hudson, our road foreman of engines over the Pittsburgh Division, could answer that ques- tion. Whatever they are, I think they are in accordance with the instructions of the American Railway Association. Mr. Stone: Have you telephones installed at nearly all of your block stations? Mr. Atterbury : I cannot answer that question, because I do not know. 771 Mr. Stone : How many trips do your through passenger men make a month? Mr. Atterbury : Which through passenger men ? Mr. Stone: Well, take the through passenger men running between Jersey City and Washington ; how many do they make a month? Mr. Atterbury : Well, my understanding is that they go down and back and that counts for three days. If that is so, I assume that they make ten round trips a month, unless their last one in the month may fall on Saturday that was a 30th or 31st ; then, I assume they would make 32 in the month, and the next time they would make 28, or 29. The Chairman : You do not mean 32 ? Mr. Atterbury : Well, they might make 32. The Chairman: You were talking about the trips a month. Mr. Atterbury : I know ; but with the round trip from Jersey City to Washington, it is a three days ' pay ; he is paid for three days. Now, if he started out on the first of the month, or started out The Chairman: You mean 32 days in the month? Mr. Atterbury : He would get paid for 32 days. The Chairman : Yes, I understand. Mr. Atterbury: For the next month he may only get paid for 27, or something of that sort. Mr. Morrissey: The earnings of those runs are compara- tively high, are they not ? Mr. Atterbury: Why, I don't see how they would be com- paratively high, Mr. Morrissey. They may be, but I assume that the men running — my recollection is that the rate is a combina- tion of the rate of ithe New York Division and the Maryland Divi- sion, and I should say that the average earnings perhaps, of the other divisions, for men in comparatively the same service, provided they are not on a six day run — if they are on a 30 day run, full days, — they probably would make as much. Mr. Morrissey: When you assigned them to run through, did you give them the total rate of the New York Division, the Maryland "Division, and the line between Baltimore and Wash- ington — the total of the three rates that were in existence prior to that time ? Mr. Atterbury: I don't remember whether we did or did not. At any rate, before we decided upon that we had a com- mittee of our employes go all over — that is an engineer, a fire- man, an two of our road foremen, go all over the country, to see where similar service was in use and whether it was practic- able and proper to establish that run; and my recollection is — ■ I may be incorrect — but, my recollection is that it was the sum of the two rates. Mr. Packer can answer that, whether I am, right or not. Mr. Packer : We received the combined rate. Mr. Atterbury: You received the combined rate? Mr. Packer : Yes. Mr. Morrissey: Then, there was no economy in the assign- ment. Mr. Atterbury: Yes, there was. Mr. Morrissey: There was no saving! Mr. Atterbury: Of course, there was, Mr. Morrissey, be- cause it avoided the five minutes delay in changing the engine. Mr. Morrissey : I mean, so far as the wages of the engineers were concerned. Mr. Atterbury: No; there was no curtailment of the wages of the engineers, but it saved that engineer the preparatory time. Mr. Stone : Then, you have no knowledge on your road, Mr. Atterbury, of how many days men on regular freight, passenger and yard work make so we can get at these figures of what lis called a regular full month's work? Mr. Atterbury : There is not any such thing as far as I know as a regular full month's work, Mr. Stone, unless you will specify some particular run. Mr. Stone : Well, there should be what is considered — there is no way to arrive at the conclusions you draw unless we have some basis to start from, for figuring. When you speak of a day's work in a yard, you have an established rate for ten hours. Is 30 times ten hours a full month's work? Mr. Atterbury: It depends on whether it is a seven day shifter, or a six day shifter. Mr. Stone: Well, seven day shifter. Would that be a fair estimate to start from? 773 Mr. Atterbury : I should suppose it would. Mr. Stone : You spoke of this agreement that was arrived at, on the West Jersey & Seashore, between a committee of en- gineers appointed, or selected and a committee of road fore- men of engines, and you stated that they finally agreed and brought in a report. Would it have been possible if the three engineers had disagreed to have brought in any other kind of a report? Mr. Atterbury : It would. Mr. Stone: The officials and the engineers were equally divided, were they not! Mr. Atterbury: There were three of each, but there is not one engineer on that committee — it consisted of Mr. Packer, Mr. Shreeves and Mr. Moyer — that would have hesitated one mo- ment in making me a minority report. I know every one of them personally and have known them for years, and there wasn't one of them that would not in one moment have come to me and said he did not agree with the report of the majority, Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact they agreed with the report in so far as the wages are concerned, but did not agree in so far as the number of miles is concerned? Mr. Atterbury : That I could not say. The report came to me in the regular way, approved by all the members of the committee, and I 0. K.'d it and put it into effect at once in accordance with my understanding with the committee. Mr. Stone : That, I think, is all I want to ask, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman: That is all, Mr. Atterbury. (Witness excused.) A M. Schoyee was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan: What is your name? Mr. Schoyer: A. M. Schoyer. Mr. Duncan: And your occupation? Mr. Schoyer: I am General Superintendent of the North- west System of the Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh. 774 Mr. Duncan: How long have you been connected with Ihe- Pennsylvania Lines? Mr. Schoyer: All my working life, about 40 years. Mr. Duncan: Now, if the Commission please, I would like- to have you turn to the rules of service that have been proposed^ by the engineers, as I want Mr. Schoyer to take up these rules- of service and apply them to a typical case for the purpose of" advising the Commission what their application really means, to a railroad company. (Addressing Mr. Schoyer:) As I understand it, Mr. Schoyer, you have been a member of the Committee on Train Rules for a long number of years? Mr. Schoyer: Of the American Railway Association. Mr. Duncan: Of the American Railway Association? Mr. Schoyer: Yes, for about fourteen years. Mr. Duncan: And that is the association which, in the- course of its existence, has prepared what is known as the' Standard Code of Rules? Mr. Schoyer: Yes, we made a Standard Code of Train- Rules, for the railroads of the United States, which are prac- tically adopted by, I suppose, nine-tenths, of all the railroads in the country. Mr. Duncan: The different railroads, however, adding dif- ferent rules to suit local conditions, but the rules in the main have remained the same? Mr. Schoyer: Each railroad, I think, has had some special rules covering the local conditions — of course, it would be neces- sary, but the Standard Rules, as they remain, are in effect on all the railroads. Mr. Duncan: Will you please turn to that portion of the demands of the engineers relating to payment for overtime, for all time over fifteen hours held at other than their home terminals? The Board will find that at the top of page 7, of the record, the second paragraph. Will you please apply that rule to a typical case, for the purpose of illustrating the effect that rule would have upon the operations of the railroads? Mr. Schoyer: That rule, taken in connection with some of these other rules- might be particnlary bard on various rail- roads. I have here a case that I thought might illustrate this- 1 to point. The railroad company tries — or at least, most of the railroad companies have either an understanding with the men, or an agreement with them that they will keep the number of crews running in any service reduced, so that the men can make a reasonable month's pay, usually the understanding be- tween them, as to what is a reasonable month's pay is 25, or 26, ■or 30 days a month. Mr. Duncan: That is a matter in which the men are inter- ested with the company? Mr. Schoyer: That is a matter in which the men and the company are interested, and which varies in different locali- ties, based on the different kinds of business there maybe. Now, the men are anxious to make the time, and they should be at the place where the train originates, or is to come from. The conditions are very different as to this fifteen hour practice' I should think, at different places, on the railroad. There might be an intermediate terminal. The railroads have not all their terminals at the beginning and end of the railroad ; some of the terminals may be in the middle. For instance, from Pittsburgh to Chicago, is one railroad, and between Pittsburgh and Chi- cago, we have two main terminals and three intermediate ter- minals. A crew might be at one of these intermediate termi- nals, and the company might be expecting that the trains from the West would arrive promptly, so that the crew could get back in a reasonable time, and there might be a wash-out or a large wreck, and the trains might be delayed in getting in. Tf the company had known that that was to be the case, it might have held back its westbound freight trains' so that they would not arrive in time, so the men would be delayed. The trains might have arrived where the wreck occurred, and the trains for the eastbound trip could not be ready, and the men must wait until the trains come in, in order to earn their wages. If the company has to pay them after fifteen hours, it may be questionable whether they should hold the men there and pay them, or run them east, light. If they run them east, light, they might have to be running an engine east without any cars, and then running other trains west without any cars, to meet the delayed trains. The company's earnings are cut off while the wreck, or wash-out' has occurred, and the company, not earning anything, » 776 will still be penalized by having to pay the men whie waiting at the terminal, by these trains being delayed. That would seem to be very unreasonable, from my standpoint. Mr. Duncan : Will you apply that to some typical case For instance, a train reaches a particular terminal, and before it reaches the next terminal it is delayed. In other words, I want you to give the Commission a typical case. Mr. Schoyer: Well, I think that what I have just tried to illustrate to the Commission would be a typical case. Mr. Duncan: Take a typical case — a typical run, or an imaginary run. Mr. Schoyer: All right, we will take the imaginary run. We run a train from Pittsburgh to Alliance, which is 83 miles distant from Pittsburgh, and we pay the man for ten hours' time, in making that trip, including time at the start and finish.. Now we had expected that train to get back in fifteen hours and get back very promptly, when we ran it out, but there has been a, wash-out — we are in a country where there are some wash- outs — there may have been a wash-out, or a wreck or some other delay to the train which we have expected, and it has not come in, and we have got to then, commence to pay the men after fifteen hours time, although, as T said before, we are not earn- ing anything, and we have nothing for them to do, but we are paying them while waiting there. They are there and making overtime, and the number of crews is so reduced that they will make their month's time at any rate' notwithstanding the delay. In connection with that illustration, I also would like to call you attention to the reference here to the Hours of Service Law. Mr. Judson: Before you take that up, I understood you to say that it seemed unfair from the company's standpoint that it should pay the men when the company is not earning anything. Mr. Schoyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Would not the men's standpoint be very dif- ferent from that; should thiey be deprived of their pay. be- cause the companay is not earning anything? Mr. Schoyer : They are not deprived of their pay ; they are only delayed a short time until their pay does commence, by reason of the fact that they are being curtailed at this end of 777 the run, for the crews are not reduced, their time at the other end of the run is cut down. Of course, th|at is somewhat ob- jectionable, because it reduces the man's time at home and in- creases his time away, during the time of that wreck, but that is only an occasional occurrence, and it does not seem right, or reasonable that you should pay a man while he is waiting to earn his day's pay. The Chairman: "Well, does that man under those circum- ; stances receive the same monthly pay, as if that washout had not occurred? Mr. Schoyer : It gives you, when it occurs, sir, that he makes that much money during the month, as though the washout had not occurred. Mr. Morrissey: But, the company does not guarantee it to him? Mr. Schoyer : No, but the company guarantees that they will endeavor to see that he makes a reasonable month's pay. Mr. Duncan : The effect of this rule would, of course, be, in times of slack business, when the train crews have not been re- leased, to increase the amount of time of that character. Mr. Schoyer : It would be necessary for the company to re- duce the crews at such time. Mr. Morrissey: Would delays such as you speak of, due to washouts, be considered an extreme view of the application of this rule? Mr. Schoyer: Yes, sir. I was trying to make a clear illus- tration of how it might affect it, and to show that a rule of so .general a character would not meet all particular cases, and that if you make a general rule applicable everywhere you are going to work some injustice under cerain conditions. Mr. Morrissey : Suppose washouts were excepted under the rule, would that remove your objection! Mr. Schoyer : Well, would you except wrecks 1 I think any rule is objectionable which makes the same rule apply to all cases. There might be cases and there is no doubt there are, from what I have heard on the stand here, where the 15 hour arrangement would be a good thing; but there are many cases where it would not be a good thing and shpuld not be of general application. That is all my argument was against. 778 The Chairman : What is the arrangement now existing ? Mr. Schoyer: On our railroad? Mr. Chairman: Yes. Mr. Schoyer: On our railroad, we have no such arrange- ment. The Chairman : There are such arrangements on some roads? Mr. Schoyer: I have heard some testimony on the stand here that there were such arrangements. I think the New Haven representative here testified they had such an arrangement on their railroad; and there are some railroads that have that condition and I should say there are places where there should be such a rule : but I should object to seeing it of general appli- tion, because I do not think it should be generally applied. Mr. Duncan : Taking the rule, beginning and ending of a day Mr. Morrissey: Just a moment, Mr. Duncan. Would the introduction of such a rule be calculated to cause the companies to pay more attention to the welfare of the men in this respect than if there was not such a rule! Mr. Schoyer : I do not think so, Mr. Morrissey. I think the companies now, are very particular and careful about this par- ticular thing, on most of the railroads with which I have been acquainted; not only because of the fact that the men will call it to your attention very promptly should there be an undue delay, but also, because of the desire of the company to see that the men are not subjected to an undue expense for being away from home. Every railroad I have known has watched that mat- ter very closely. I heard some argument, or some testimony here — I don't want to take up the time of the Board about a thing that has passed, but I heard some testimony, as to whether, or not a penalty of this kind would require the company to get the trains over the road more promptly and would not require them to get the trains out more promptly ; also in connection with the initial and terminal time, the same thing. I thought I would deal with that more fully when I got down to that point. Mr. Morrissey : Ts it not liable to happen that the volume of business is greater in one direction than in another, and that the number of crews away from home is liable to increase in pro- portion ! Mr. Schoyer: I don't think it is in every case, no, sir. Most 779 of the cases where the volume of business is heavier in one di- rection than another, that is a usual occurrence, and the desire of the company to get the engines back where the heavy volume of business is, results in them being run back with light trains very promptly, in order to get them back where they need them. I think that is the practice of railroads of heavy traffic. Mr. Morrissey: Would you feel that in a condition of that kind that a railroad company was justified in running light crews in the direction of home, for the welfare of the employes ? Mr. Schoyer : I have known it to be done very many times ; yes, sir. • Mr. Morrissey : In recent years ? Mr. Shoyer: Very many times. They do it very many times. Mr. Morrissey: Well, I have understood that that was one of the lost arts in modern transportation. Mr. Schoyer: If you will come around and visit me at Pitts- burgh I will enlighten you. Mr. Judson : Which section of the engineers ' demands were you speaking of? Mr. Schoyer: In connection with freight rates. You will find the next to the last pargraph says, "engineers will be paid at overtime rate for all time over 15 hours held at other than their home terminal." Mr. Duncan : Now, will you apply the proposed rule relat- ing to the beginning and ending of a clay in some typical, or imaginary, or concrete case? Mr. Schoyer : You are talking about both in — Mr. Duncan: I am referring to the beginning and ending- of the day. Mr. Schoyer: Yes. There are two paragraphs referring to the beginning and ending of the day. It is referred to in the Belt Line service and in the next paragraph, where as I under- stand the request contained in those two paragraphs is that the enginemen want all time to begin 30 minutes before the start- ing time, or before the engine has to leave the engine house. I should think that was a very good thing, in many cases and a very bad thing in other cases. On our railroad our practice is that time shall begin when the employe is required to report for duty, and that is an admirable rule, for us. I do not know how good it would be for other people. 780 Mr. Duncan: Is the time at which they are required to re- port for duty calculated with a view to giving them the oppor- tunity to perform whatever preparatory services are required? Mr. Sehoyer: On our railroad, we name the time that the man shall report for duty for every class of service, and for each particular run; and some runs it requires more time to prepare than it does for others. Mr. Duncan : And, that includes the time sufficient for pre- paratory service? Mr. Sehoyer: That includes all the time that we think is necessary to prepare the engine, and if the engine is not pre- pared in time to start the run on time, the company takes the responsibility. Mr. Judson: How does that time of yours compare with this 30 minutes, required here? Mr. Sehoyer: In some cases, it is more and in some cases it is less. We named for a particular run a class of service and time the men shall report. The Superintendent of each division and Road Foreman particularly, sets it so if the engine on an 18-hour train, for in- stance — I am not sure that I am citing a case that exists, but just as an illustration — if the engineman on an 18-hour train for in- stance, has got to be around a little earlier than the engine man on some other train, because of his desire to have the engine in perfectly good order, and our desire to have it so, his time begins at the time we think it is necessary he should be there to prepare that engine. Mr. Judson: Your criticism then, of this demand, is that it would fit some case.s and some it would not, that it would take ' thirty minutes in some cases and others more than thirty min- utes? Mr. Sehoyer: Yes, sir. I object to making it uniform. I think a rule of that kind should not be uniform, because in many cases it would require us to pay the man if he was performing no service, and in other cases, it would mean a man would be performing service that he would get no pay for, and I do not think we should ask the men to perform services when they do not get paid. Mr. Judson: Why would not a rule that a man should be paid from the time he is required to report for duty be proper, if adopted everywhere. 781 Mr. Schoyer: That might be all right in some cases. It would be all right on our railroad, but I am not well enough ac- quainted with all the railroads to say I should make any rule of that kind which would apply to them all. I would hesitate to do it. Mr. Duncan: The rule in force on your railroad requires the man to report for duty at a time, sufficient to give him time to do the preparatory service! Mr. Schoyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Duncan : And, the application of this rule to your rail- road requires you to pay 30 minutes more, for which you would receive no service? Mr. Schoyer: It might; the thirty minutes might be the time required to prepare his engine., Mr. Duncan : But you have a rule which requires them to report for duty at a time which gives them an opportunity to prepare? Mr. Schoyer: Yes. Mr. Duncan : So that you do not need any extra 30 minutes before that? Mr. Schoyer : We do not need anything but what we have. Mr. Duncan: So, the effect of this rule would require you to pay for thirty minutes in addition? Mr. Schoyer: It might. The Chairman: How could it require you to pay for 30 minutes in addition, because you in all cases provide some little time ahead, little, or more time, ahead, do you not? Mr. Schoyer: Well, suppose we had a place such as has been talked about here, an electric service where it takes the engine man five minutes, and we have to pay him 30 minutes. The Chairman : Oh, yes, I see. Mr. Schoyer : Such things might happen in the steam service. We are advancing very rapidly in our relieving the men of all work in connection with preparing engines. Mr. Judson: Then, your position, as I understand it, is that you consider the fairest rule is that the man should be paid from the time he is required to give his service to the company, whether for preparation, or otherwise. Mr. Schoyer : That is the fairest rule for our company, yes, sir. I would hesitate to say it is the fairest for all companies. 782 Mr. Judsoii: Why not? Mr. Schoyer: Because 1 don't know the condition of these other companies. If I was acquainted with the condition of these 52 railroads, I would like to answer, but I cannot. Mr. Judson: Can you conceive of any condition where a man should not be paid for the time he gives the company! Mr. Schoyer: No, I think the man should be paid for all the time he gives the company and no more. Mr. Duncan : And, your contention is your company is do- ing it? Mr. Schoyer: Our company is doing it. Mr. Duncan: And, you do not need the application of any extra thirty minutes. Mr. Schoyer: We do not need any change in our rule. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Ceoss-Examixation : Mr. Stcne: Do you understand, Mr. Schoyer, that this rule would add to an additional thirty minutes to the Pennsylvania, to what they are alieady paying? Mr. Schoyer : I am not just quite sine about this Belt Line service, Mr. Stone. It reads in a very peculiar way, that para- graph, and I thought perhaps that might mean double thirt « minutes. I think in some cases this thirty minutes might add time to us, and I think in some cases it would take time away from the men, and I would object to taking time away from the men, if they were working. Mr. Stone : We throw an anchor out to windward in that last clause, so there would be no time taken away from the men. You understood the purport of that last clause, did you? Mr. Schoyer : Yes, sir ; I think it is a very unfair clause. that the men should keep everything they have if they are going to be raised to a standard. It is not a standard if the peak is continued. Mr. Stone : Well, you understand, of course, that that prin- ciple has already been established by other concerted move- ments, don't you! Mr. Schoyer : I have heard so, yes, sir. The Chairman: But, that might militate against the stand- ard, Mr. Stone, might it not! 783 Mr. Stone : Not necessarily so. Mr. Schoyer : My idea of the standard is when the things are rather on a plane. Mr. Morrissey: In that respect, Mr. Schoyer, does that ad- justment of the question take into consideration the fact that certain of these rates has been much lower in years gone by, on some of the roads than the standard? Is there not a com- pensating feature in that respect! Mr. Schoyer: Why, Mr. Morrissey, it seems to me that there are so many conditions existing on all the railroads of the country, that I would hesitate to say what I do think about the attempt to make anything of this kind equal on all railroads. I do think that an equalization would mean that on many railroads many men would be very greatly overpaid, and it might mean — well, I will not say it might, I mean that on some railroads they would be underpaid, because I do not think they would anywhere, but they would be very greatly overpaid in some cases, I think. Mr. Stone : If I understand you correctly, you do not accede to the principle that any man in your service is underpaid? Mr. Schoyer: There are many men on our railroad that are underpaid. I would like to see an increase of pay in many varieties of our service that I think should get an increase in pay, but we have not been able to give it to them. Mr. Morrissey : Do you have a different operating rule in respect to your double crewed yard engines on the lines east! Mr. Schoyer: I am not acquainted with the rules on the Lines East, Mr. Morrissey ; I could not tell you. Mr. Morrissey: Well, I note, in computing the cost of the proposed change, that the Lines, East, give no figures, and from that I would take it, to use Mr. Atterbury's expression of yes- terday, that it was "intangible" and "negligible," while on the Lines West you give a comparatively small figure, less than $4,000 for a year. Is that a serious item on the Pennsylvania Railroad! Mr. Schoyer : I do not think any small item is a serious item on our railroad or on any railroad, but one item is only one item, and I think any attempt to standardize a thing of this kind must omit from consideration different conditions existing on many railroads in the country. As far as the double crewed engines are concerned, I really do not know Avhat the conditions 784 are east of Pittsburgh. On our lines west of Pittsburgh we- pay the men from the time we require them to report. Mr. Judson: You speak of the fact the rules should be adapted to practices or local conditions. Why would not a rule that a man should be paid from the time he is called on for duty, be equally applicable everywhere? Mr. Schoyer: It is applicable everywhere on our road. Mr. Duncan: I mean equally applicable everywhere on any railroad. Mr. Schoyer: I do not know that I am in a position to tes- tify on that point. I am here, you know, practically only to ex- plain the rules, as far as I can, looking at them from our rail- road standpoint; and I would not like to construe them gen- erally. I should say, if any general rule was to be adopted for general application, that rule would seem to me to be the fair- est rule that could be adopted, anywhere. There is one matter, Mr. Duncan, th;at I wanted to bring out before I left here, im connection with the Hours of Service Law. Am I taking up too^ much time, or may I testify to that point? Mr. Judson: Yes, we want to hear yon. Mr. Duncan : All right. Mr. Schoyer : The Hours of Service Law here, as requested by the enginemen, changes the basis on which we have been pay- ing the men. On the present basis, after sixteen hours running, if they should be tied up on the road and get their rest, then we pay the time to the next terminal, either on the basis of the actual' miles or the actual hours, whichever is the greater. Now, on the basis asked for by the enginemen, we will pay after that eight hours rest, ten hours time, regardless of the situation. Now I have an illustration that I had worked out, that I thought might clear this point I have in mind. Alluding to that run from Allegheny to Alliance, 83 miles in length, we pay for 100 miles on that run and pay the engine- men $4.90. Pretty high pay, but it was based on the fact that it was under 100 miles. Xow, supposing an engineman, starting from Allegheny, on a westbound trip, should be tied up at Salem; Salem is 13 miles east of Alliance. He has been in some wash-out on the 785 P"oad, or a wreck or something, that would not be excusable, and we have to tie him up. So, we put him on the side track and the men go to sleep and they take their eight hours rest. We pay them sixteen hours time to that point, because they have worked sixteen hours. They would start out after the eight hours rest and run that thirteen miles to Alliance' making the run in 30 minutes or 40 minutes. Mr. Judson: Why do you say he has eight hours rest there? Mr. Schcyer: Because that is the law, that he shall have eight hours rest after sixteen hours service. Mr. Morrissey : Would the law require you to tie him up in case of a wash-out? Mr. Schoyer: Unless it was something excusable, the law would require us to tie him up, and I am taking this as a case of something not excusable under the law, and a great many cases are not excusable under the law, and we are increasing the cases that are not excusable by arrangements between ourselves and this organization. Supposing this man has been tied up for an inexcusable matter, and he has had eight hours rest and then runs the thirteen miles to Alliance in 30 minutes, or 40 minutes, we would pay him ten hours for that run of thirteen miles to Alli- ance, which he makes in 30, or 40 minutes. Then, he is at Alli- ance 18 hours, and we would pay him three hours. Then- he would come back from Alliance, to Alegheny, and make it in five hours, and we would pay him 10 hours for that trip. He would have been away 46 hours, he would have been on duty 20 hours, and we would have paid him 39 hours time, and he would have had two periods of rest. Mr. Judson: How much does that amount to? Mr. Schoyer : I have not figured it up ; 49 cents an hour. Mr. Morrissey: Have you ever had anv such experience as that? Mr. Schoyer: No; we have not these rules, Mr. Morrissey. That is what I am afraid of, that they may exist. Now, I will give you one other case that is the other ex- treme. Mr. Judson : Give us how much money the man was paid on that. 786 Mr. Schoyer: 49 times 39. He would be paid about $18 or $19. Mr. Judson: For bow many day's work? Mr. Schoyer: In all, he would have worked 20 hours; he would have been away from home 46 hours and he would have got about $18 or $19 money, and we would pay him for 39 hours time. The Chairman: That is, of course, an extraordinary im- aginable case, is it not? Mr. Schoyer: Not at all; it is a case that if we had these rules in existence, might occur frequently under heavy traffic conditions; might occur frequently. Such a condition has oc- curred last winter when the railroads had all they could do to get the trains over the road on account of the very severe weather. Mr. Judson : That is the operation of the Sixteen Hour Law of Congress? Mr. Schoyer: That is the operation of the Sixteen Hour Law, and the operation of this new fifteen hour rule. I com- bined the two in the illustration. I will give you another case which will leave out the Sixteen Hour Law. Here is a crew that made this run from Allegheny to Alliance, 83 miles, in five hours, which is a reasonable run for them to make over that territory, because it is a hilly railroad, where the engines can- not haul the heavy trains over the hills, and therefore they haul light trains on the plains, and they have light trains and they make very good time. Supposing they run from Allegheny to Alliance, in five hours, we pay them for ten hours' time for it, and if they should be delayed at Alliance, 20 hours, by reason of something perhaps that we could not control, or even something that we could control; we pay them for the five hours over the fifteen hours, and then supposing that they come back from Alliance to Allegheny in five hours, which it is very probable that they would do, we would then pay them for ten hours, for that ser- vice. They would be on duty ten hours. They have been away from home 30 hours and we pay them for 25 hours' time. Now, suppose that we had held them in the yard, at Alle- gheny, two hours before they started, by reason of something 787 that we could not control, some passenger train being delayed.,, or something of that kind, and they had made this run from Al- legheny to Alliance in five hours, and had been held an hour in the yard there, before they got to the engine house; we would then have paid them for 28 hours, and they would have been away from home 33 hours, and been on duty, including the delays and all time, 13 hours. The Chairman: Haven't you some arrangement on your line — I think you have already referred to that, or some other witness has — by which, if these delays of the kind you speak of, occur, the man is enabled to earn, during the month, a mini- mum wage during that month, so that his pay, during the month, is not cut down to an extraordinary degree. Mr. Schoyer : Mr. Morrissey has asked the question whether we guarantee the men the time. We do not guarantee the men the time in any class of service, excepting in local freight ser- vice, but we do promise them that we will endeavor to see that they get the opportunity to make a reasonable number of days per month. I think it is 26 days per month, or something like that, in ordinary freight service, so that in any of these extra- ordinary occasions that occur, we try to see that they are made whole, by opportunities to work. Mr. Morrissey: How do you guarantee them in the local freight service.? Mr. Schoyer : Well, I will read you the guarantee : "Regularly assigned local freight enginemen who are ready for duty will be given an opportunity to make ten hours each day, excepting Sundays and holidays." Mr. Morrissey: Supposing they do not make it? Mr. Schoyer : Well, we give them the opportunity. Mr. Morrissey : Suppose you abandon a way freight, for any reason, such as a washout, or a snow blockade, would you pay the way freight men, for that period ? Mr. Schoyer: We give them an opportunity to earn it. Mr. Morrissey: In some other way? Mr. Schoyer : In some other way. Mr. Morrissey: Then, you do not pay them for any services you do not get? Mr. Schoyer: Well, there are times we do: yes, sir. I am sorry to say that that is done, even on a standard railroad. 788 Mr. Stone : You say, Mr. Schoyer, that men frequently make the run between Allegheny and Alliance in five hours ? Mr. Schoyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Do you mean to make the statement that the men handling your slow, drag freights make the run in that time ? Mr. Schoyer : I mean to make the statement that the freight trains which run between Allegheny and Alliance frequently make the run in five hours. Often longer. Mr. Morrissey: Which division is that! Mr. Schoyer: That is the Eastern Division of the Pennsyl- vania Lines, West of Pittsburgh. Mr. Morrissey: Eastern Division f Mr. Schoyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: This table here, shows that the average of through freight trains is 9.34 hours. Mr. Schoyer : We have a great deal of freight that does not run to Alliance. I picked Alliance and Allegheny because of the distance being under 100 miles. We have some longer runs. Mr. Stone: Under 100 miles, on an 83 mile division, vo, do not pay any overtime until the men have been on duty ten hours f Mr. Schoyer: No, sir. We pay them $4.90, for taking their trains from the initial point to the terminal point, and the engine to the ash pit, including the delays which may occur. After ten hours, for traveling those 83 miles, we pay them on the basis of overtime. Mr. Stone: You stated the rule for paying for being held away from home, or held at other than home terminals is par- ticlarly hard on railroads ? Mr. Schoyer : I did not say it was particularly hard. I said it would be hard on the railroads at times, in some places. Mr. Stone : Isn't it just as hard on the men to lay away from the home terminal for two or three or four days, as they some- times do now! Mr. Schoyer : I should think that would be very hard on the men. I do not think that often happens on our railroad, and when anything of that kind happens, there is generally some good reason for it and every effort is made to see that it does not happen again. 789 ^Ir. Stone: Isn't it also true that these extraordinary cases that you speak of, where the men are tied up by wrecks and so forth, are not all these exempt under the Sixteen Hour Law — don't they come under the provisions, as to the acts of Provi- dence? Mr. Schoyer: Are you talking about the application of the Sixteen Hour Law, or the fifteen hour rule! Mr. Stone : The Sixteen Hour Law, the men being tied up along the line by washouts, wrecks, and so forth — would it not be the practice to keep your men on duty until they get to the home terminal f Mr. Schoyer: Sometimes. For instance, I will just cite a case in point. Mr. Stone illustrated, in this pamphlet that he exhibited here, showing the engineers ' table, instances of con- tinuous service, in excess of sixteen hours. The Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh showed two horrible examples in Sep- tember of last year, two cases of from 73, to 74 hours, and one case of 79 or 80 hours. The facts in that case are these : Those trains were cut out by a washout on the Marietta Division, be- tween Canal Dover and the Ohio Eiver; there was a washout in front of them and a washout behind them, and it was impossible to get an engine through to them, either way, to relieve them, and the engineer and firemen took turn about in watching the engine and relieving each other, sleeping for a time and working for a time. Now, that was a case that was exempt under the law. Mr. Stone: Don't you usually use such a crew in construc- tion work, repairing the washout? Mr. Schoyer: No, sir; they were not used. My statement from the Superintendent was that these men were watching the train and sleeping. Mr. Judson: It is a fact, according to your contention, under the Sixteen Hour Law, that that is excusable ; but does that have any bearing upon your relation to the men, in the payment of wages 1 Mr. Schoyer: No, not at all. Mr. Judson: It relates only to the penalties imposed by the statute ? Mr. Schoyer: It has this to do with it, which II r. Stone brought out; it is only fair to say his point is very well taken — 790 in case of a washout, or a wreck, we are permitted, under certain-, circumstances, to continue the crew through to the terminal, without tying them up for rest. The law makes that exception in that case. I wanted to use a case in my illustration that was not susceptible to this provision, yet there are a great many such cases, because you have examples here of the operation of the Sixteen Hour Law. Mr. Stone: The point I wanted to bring out was that you 1 said they took turnabout sleeping. Generally, in cases where' the line is broken, every available crew, from both ends, is busy hauling material, or getting material to and repairing the wreck. I have been there myself. Mr. Schoyer : My impression is that these fellows were tied up between washouts, so they could not do anything at all. All they could do was to wait until the rain stopped. Mr. Stone : You spoke about a man being held at the terminal in case of wreck or washout, that it simply postponed his pay. Isn't it the fact, under the Sixteen Hour Law, that he does not ever recover the time lost! Mr. Schoyer : No, I think that is not correct, because he is afforded an opportunity, but his time at home is cut down, his turn away from home is a little quicker. Mr. Stone : Can you run him away from a home terminal, until the rest limit has applied 1 ? Mr. Schoyer: No, sir. Mr. Stone : Then, if he is away from home three days, and makes that trip, you require him to take his rest, so you can get the full sixteen hours out of him again before he is allowed to go. Mr. Schoyer : Yes, but I doubt if there are any such almost impossible examples of men being away from home three days- I was referring to delays of only a few hours. Mr. Morrissey: Isn't it probable that other crews will pass the man who is tied up under the law ! Mr. Schoyer : It is very possible. Mr. Morrissey: And, they will stand ahead of him at the opposite terminal! Mr. Schoyer : Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Then hasn't he lost some of his opportunity to earn! 791 Mr. Schoyer : He has until that other crew is tied up under the Sixteen Hour Law, when he regains it. Mr. Judson: We have had some testimony here, of engi- neers on slow freight trains, who have been tied up regularly, in their regular runs, away from their homes, and at their own expense. What is your practice in that regard, if you have any such cases? Mr. Schoyer : I heard the engineman from the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad testify to experiences of that kind, where he was tied up twice, on a run. I cannot recall such a case on our railroad. We have no practice of paying for a man's food or rest, when he is tied up under the law. Mr. Judson: Your men find themselves? Mr. Schoyer: Yes, they must find themselves. We have along the line of our road at many places, or several places, I should say, either company hotels, or company rest houses, where the men can get their accommodations at a very low rate, but they may be tied up at a place where more of those things exist. Mr. Judson: And they pay for those accommodations? Mr. Schoyer: They pay, if they go away from the train and deep. Mr. Stone : If tied up under the law, do you always get the crew to a point where they can get meals and lodging? Mr. Schoyer: We aim to do so. That is our practice, wherever we can. Mr. Stone: But, there are places where they are tied up, where neither exist? Mr. Schoyer : There are places where neither exist. That is a peculiar hardship growing out of the law, which is unavoid- able, as long as we must obey the law, which we try to do strictly. Mr. Stone: That is a hardship which grows out of the en- forcement of the law, Mr. Schoyer? Mr. Schoyer: I think it does. Mr. Stone : Cannot the men equally claim, on the other side, that it grows out of the heavy tonnage of the trains and the poor operation? Mr. Schoyer: I think not, on our railroad. I would not like to testify for any other railroad. Mr. Stone: That is all. 792 Mr. Duncan : That is all. I do not think we would be able to finish with the next witness before luncheon, if the Board cares to adjourn now. Mr. Van Hise : In that matter, I was wondering — Mr. Dun- can, do you expect you will be able to get through with your witnesses to-day and to-morrow? Mr. Duncan: Oh, yes; we have cut down the number of our witnesses very materially, simply because we felt the Board was getting enough information. Mr. Van Hise : It seems to me you and Mr. Stone ought to agree on the division of time, after you get through with your witnesses, so you will have a chance to make your summing up and close it before 12 :00 or 12 :30, on Saturday, if possible, so the Board will have the afternoon for conference. Mr. Duncan : We are planning our witnesses and our tes- timony so as to do that. Mr. Stone: On Saturday, I suppose we will meet at the usual hour, ten o'clock? The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: I can do all the summing up that I shall want to do in 45 minutes, and Mr. Duncan can have the rest of the time. That will give him an hour and three-quarters — or may- be I can finish in half an hour and he can have the rest of the time. The Chairman: We do not want to cut you down, at all. Mr. Stone: It won't cut me down at all. The Chairman: If Mr. Duncan desires a recess now, as he has made no requests at all up to the present time, we will now take a recess until two o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12:20 P. M., a recess was taken to 2:00 P.M.) 793 AFTER RECESS. 2:00 P. M. H. J. Hoen was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows : Mr. Duncan: What is your name! Mr. Horn : H. J. Horn. Mr. Duncan: You are connected with the New Haven Rail- road! Mr. Horn : The New Haven, the Boston. & Maine and the Central New England. Mr. Duncan: What is your position? Mr. Horn: Vice-President in charge of operation. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Stone, in the earlier part of this hearing,- -offered in evidence, a statement purporting to show a list of locomotive engineers injured or killed by electricity since it was installed on the New Haven Road, citing some eight instances. Have you had an opportunity to secure information on those -accidents ? Mr. Horn: Yes, I looked over Mr. Stone's exhibit and was rather surprised that the impression that I got from his exhibit was so different from what I had been carrying in my mind as to the accidents. We had the files of these accidents checked up, and it shows that three of the five men killed were on steam engines, not electric. One of them was evidently killed by an overhead bridge, and not, according to the Coroner's finding, touched by the electric current, in any way. Now, witness Gar- land, who testified July 19th, regarding Mr. Burch, said he was attempting to lower the pantagraph. Mr. Burch was an in- structor at the time of the accident, and, contrary to the com- pany's instructions was trying to raise one pantagraph with the other one up, so that the pantagraph was alive. These three men that were killed on the steam engines were also on top of the engines, contrary to the company's instructions. Now, the fifth man that was killed was attempting to man- ipulate a switch that controls the current of a side track, and that is in a box about ten feet from the ground on a pole, and he was leaning out of the cab and attempting to open or close 794 the switch, and apparently lost his balance and fell into the switch with his hands, and that is the way his accident hap- pened. I have a little brief of these accidents that I would like to have you look over, if you care to. Mr. Duncan: Suppose we treat that as a part of your tes- timony, with the Commission's permission, as your statement of the manner these men were injured, so the Commission may have it to compare with the statement offered in evidence by the engineers, and to furnish the stenographer with a copy of that to be put in the record. (The paper referred to is as follows) : Electric Accidents. Order of the File. 1. Mr. Stone's cases. (See also Mr. Stone's remarks on page 62 of the Stenogra- pher's minutes, July 15, 1912.) 2. Memorandum of actual facts. 3. Railroad Bulletins. Stone's Cases or Electric Accidents. New York, New Haven & Hartford Ratlroad Company. List of Locomotive Engineers Injured or Killed by Electric- ity Since It Was Installed on New Haven System. Shore Line Division. (1) 1908. Engineer Chares Phillips, got out on running board to clean out sand pipes ; head touched the overhead feed wire which carries 11,000 volts, and was killed out- right. (2) 1909. Engineer Burch, at Stamford, Conn., got out on step of engine to arrange pantagraph locks with a pole 10 feet long, used for this purpose, current leaping across pole and grounded through his body, was taken to hospital, where he died. (3) 1909. Engineer Fred Elliott, at Stamford, Conn., got on top of his engine to adjust bell ringer, came in con- tact with lives wires. His hands, arms and face so 795 badly burned he was off duty for sixty days; hand will be crippled for life. (4) 1910. Engineer Maxwell, at Stamford, Conn., repairing a switch in switch group, finger burned so badly lost one joint. (5) 1910. Engineer J. D. Bonier, at Grand Central Terminal, New York, while testing out the battery current on multiple unit train, was badly burned on face, hands and arm on account of current leaping across on car- bon dust which set fire to his clothing. This accident occurred on direct current and he was laid up over two months. (6) 1911. Engineer James Coyle, at New Canaan, Conn., lost his life by coming in contact with 11,000 volts live wire while pulling out of siding and closing contact switch. (7) 1911. Engineer Levi Bude, at New Bochelle, N. Y., killed instantly by overhead wire while fixing bell line. (8) 1911. Engineer John Bottomry, at Larchmont, N. Y., while on the tender of his engine came in contact with live wire of 11,000 volts which grounded through his body, killing him instantly. Stone's Cases or Electric Accidents. Electeic Accidents. Memorandum op Actual Pacts. (1) Phillips, steam engineer, violated safety rule; negligently ran his head against overhead wire from top of tender of steam engine standing still at New Bochelle. (See at- tached bulletins of warning.) (2) Burch, Instructor, violated safety rule. Witness Garland, in his testimony of July 19th, described accident as hav- ing occurred while Burch was attempting to pull down the pantagraph with an eight, or ten foot wooden pole, and said that the electricity passed through the length of the pole. In fact, Burch should have lowered the west panta- graph by touching button inside of cab before raising the east pantagraph, so that there would have been no cur- 796 rent on the pantagrapk he was raising. He took hold of the bolted down pantagraph to unlock mechanical lock- bringing his hand within two inches of the pantagraph which, by his negligence, was unnecessarily charged with high voltage current. Our best information is that we have never had a case of any man receiving a shock, or being injured when properly handling the poles provided for pulling down pantagraph. (3) Coyle, engineer, negligently touched charged switch with hand instead of with pole. He was handling the switch for turning on, or off the current from his cab instead of from the ground and apparently lost his balance and fell on to it. (4) Eude, steam engineer, violated safety rule. Stood on boiler and touched overhead wire. (See attached bulletins of warning.) (5) Bottomly, steam engineer, not killed by electricity. Coro- ner reported death caused by engineer standing up on coal on tender, raising his head in time to get hit by overhead bridge. (6) Elliott, engineer, violated safety rule. Got up on cab roof without lowering pantagraph and touched it with hand. (7) Maxwell, fireman, put an umbrella among live wires and touched them in getting it out. (8) Romer, engineer, in testing batteries allowed cord to coma in contact with blower switch, causing a short circuit with casing of cabinet. This accident brought about a revision of apparatus so that its repetition will be impossible. In addition to accidents mentioned by Mr. Stone, there were three, as follows : (1) G-ay, engineer, while changing from direct current to alter- nating current at South Mount Vernon, received shock and was off five days. Accident could have been prevented if he had observed the rules requiring him to lower panta- graph before going on top of car. (2) Mornhinweg, engineer, lighting oil under flash boiler in motor No. 014 to dry out his clothing. Oil blew out and burned his left hand slightly. He lost no time on account of the accident. 797 (3) Dean, engineer, circuit breaker on motor No. 027 grounded through terminal, causing oil to fly in face. Lost thirteen days. Design of arc tips has been changed to prevent a repetition of this accident, which, it is stated, is the only case of explosion of circuit breaker in locomotive cab. The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Company. Superintendent's Office. New York Division. New York, December 20, 1906. Notice No. 1912. All Concerned. On and after 7 A. M., Tuesday, January 1st, 1907, all bridge guards and tell-tales between Woodlawn and Stamford will be removed, on account of electric construction, after which time trainmen, enginemen and all concerned are warned to keep off the top of cars and to look out for obstructions when on tenders between these points. A. R. Whaley, Superintendent. A. R. Whaley, Superintendent : I have this date received and carefully read copy of Notice No. 1912, giving notice of removal of bridge guards and tell-tales between Woodlawn and Stamford and warning trainmen, engine- men and others concerned to keep off the top of cars and to look out for obstructions when on tenders between these points. Signed Occupation Date 190 798 The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Company. Superintendent's Office. Shore Line Division. New Haven, Conn., February 17, 1911. Notice No. 40. To Enginemen, Trainmen and all concerned : In the Electric Zones bridge guards and tell-tales are not maintained, and there is danger within fourteen (14) inches of every wire that is charged. You are, therefore, warned when in the Electric Zones to keep off the top of cars on tracks over which are wires, and while on tenders use the utmost care to look out for all obstructions. You are also warned /to keep at least four- teen (14) inches from every such wire. There a.re Electric Zones, at present, between Woodlawn and Noroton, Stamford and New Canaan, Berlin and Middle- town, Westfield and Meriden, and Middletown and Cromwell. Bulletin notice of extensions will be issued, and this warn- ing will apply to extensions, as they are made. C. N. Woodward, Superintendent. Mr. C. N. "Woodward, Superintendent. I have this day received and carefully read copy of Notice No. 40, stating that in Electric Zones bridge guards and tell- tales are not maintained, and that there is danger within four- teen (14) inches of every wire; and warning enginemen, train- men and others to keep off the top of cars on tracks over which are wires and when on tenders to use the utmost care to look out for all such wires ; also warning enginement, trainmen and others to keep at least fourteen (14) inches from all wires. I understand that Electric Zones now exist between Wood- lawn and Noroton, Stamford and New Canaan, Berlin and Mid- dletown, Westfield and Meriden and Middletown and Cromwell, and that they will be extended. I promise to watch carefully for such extensions both in the physical conditions along the right of way and in bulletins. I also understand that Notice 799 "No. 40, applies to the Eleotric Zones, as they now exist and, as they may be extended in the future. In the presence of Witness. Signed Occupation. Date Mr. Judson: Has not that subject been gone into fully "before ! Mr. Duncan: Not in so far as this particular exhibit is con- cerned, Mr. Judson. The purpose of this testimony is to cor- rect the impression that might be gained from the exhibit which has been offered, by Mr. Stone, to the effect that electric cur- rent is a dangerous instrumentality. Mr. Horn : Now, I have not been connected with any of these railroads a very long time; the Boston & Maine a little over a month, and the New Haven about 18 months ; but I have attempted to get some idea into my head of what the engineers' schedule really means, what does the railroad company pay for an engine mile actually run ; and ahead of the figures that were made out, for this Conference Committee we worked up some figures last winter; took the wages actually paid the engineers in the wek ending December 22nd, and for the week ending August 18th; took the miles run in passenger service and in freight service. The Chairman: Why did you take those particular weeks? Mr. Horn: Why, there was quite a variation in the New Haven's business, and I took the week of December 22nd, be- cause that was a month where the freight was not at its maxi- mum, neither was the passenger; and I took the week of August 18th, because that was a good passenger and a rather poor freight month. The engine miles of the passenger plus the ■freight were within a fraction of one per cent, for either week. 800 We have weekly pay rolls on the New Haven and the Boston & Maine. The Chairman: What is the difference between engine miles and train miles? Mr. Horn: We may run some engines light, or may run some double-headers. Tt is not always the same. On the elec- tric motor, I think it was brought out that we ran two motors to some of those trains. Mr. Duncan : Those two motors would make one engine mile, would they not? Mr. Horn: In these calculations, yes. Mr. Duncan: Although they may not be hauling a train? Mr. Horn : Yes. Sometimes we have no train behind them. The engineer gets paid for the light engine the same as he does for the engine with the train behind. The Chairman : The engine miles are more than the train miles ? Mr. Duncan : So that the engine miles mark the earnings >of the engineer, whether there is anv freight behind him or not? Mr. Horn: Yes. Mr. Duncan: The train miles mark the company's freight? Mr. Horn: Yes. Now, we have on the New Haven road one rate for the passenger locomotive engineer, 4.10, or 4.1 cents per mile. In the week ending August 18th, 1911, we ac- tually paid for the engine mile run 4.79 cents, or 17 per cent, in excess of the schedule rate. Mr. Duncan: To what was that due? Mr. Horn : That is due to all sorts of different rules that mean money. Sometimes they are apparent, and sometimes they are not. The money is there, and it comes out by taking a check of the payrolls and the engine miles run. I am anxious to make this point pretty clear, because it was my way of checking the schedule of the New Haven Road, ■ because it was the test, how much did we pay for the engine mile actually run. Mr. Duncan: And, you found that that was $4.79, as against the $4.10 rate ? Mr. Horn: Yes, for the week ending .August 18th. Now, if you went to the week ending December 22nd, it is $4.92, or 20 per cent, in excess of the $4.10 schedule rate. That is the excess 801 in the passenger rate, and, as Mr. Duncan brought out, is due to allowances in the rules. When it comes to freight service — 1 do not include switch- ing, or work with the engines that pull trains — it was for the week ending August 18th, $6.66, in place of the schedule rate of $4.65. That is, every engine mile run in freight service during that week the engineer got 2.1 cents per mile more, for running that engine than the $4.65 rate named in his schedule. That is an excess of 43.2 per cent. The Chairman: Does that come from the ten hour day? Mr. Horn: It comes from everything, Mr. Chairman. Some of it is the ten hour day, some of it is tl.te double overtime, and some of it is allowances, because the man was not permitted to work; and it is all the things that are named or allowed in the schedule. It is the money that the company paid out. Mr. Morrissey : If a man ran 100 miles on that basis and used 20 hours, what would the average engine mile show? Mr. Horn: It shows the miles run, Mr. Morrissey; the miles that the engine made. Mr. Morrissey: But, would he not have used in reality two days in making the one hundred miles ? Mr. Horn : Your question was if he ran two hundred miles in twenty hours'? Mr. Morrissey: One hundred miles in twenty hours. Mr. Horn: And, you want to know whether this counted as one hundred miles, or twlo hundred miles ? Mr. Morrissey: I wanted to know how this would be re- garded in this average which you are presenting. Mr. Horn : 100 miles. It is the miles that the engine made. Mr. Morrissey: Well, then, is that a true comparison to show the earning capacity per mile of the engineer! Mr. Horn: This is not intended to show in any way the earning capacity of the engineer. It is intended to show what the company pays for getting an engine one mile. That is all; there is nothing about earning capacity in this. When it comes to the earning capacity of the men, we depend on the state- ments that are in the black book. Now, if you go through the week ending December 22nd, the engine mile cost the company 6.84 cents, or 2.29 cents per engine 802 mile run in excess of the 4.65 cents rate named in the schedule. This is an excess of 47 per cent. Now, I picked out both of those weeks out of curiosity. And, Mr. Straus asked the question why I took that. He may be in- terested a little bit in seeing the variation of months in earnings of the New Haven Road in passenger and freight service. I hardly think you would care to look at that perhaps (handing paper to the Chairman) , but it shows the variation, Mr. Straus. But, when you take the total of the engine miles made for those two weeks, there is only a variation of 400 miles in pretty near 500,000 engine miles made each week. Now, after getting those figures for the New Haven I thought I would like to try that on the Boston & Maine, so I asked for the same figures, and I only have the week ending December 23, 1911. The other figures,, for some reason or other, have not reached me. We have, in our country, weekly payrolls, and I imagine that the Boston & Maine's payroll ends on Friday and ours ends on Thursday, but taking the Boston & Maine's passenger rate for the week ending December 23, 1911, they paid for each engine mile run, 4.89 cents. Now I cannot give you the exact per cent, increase over that named in the schedule, for they have several rates. The black book has the rates on the Boston & Maine in passenger service, 4.7 cents; for Consolidation, 4.1 and 4 cents. Mr. Lee, the General Super- intendent, tells me that none of those engines in Consolidation are now in passenger service, and I used the high rate of 4.10 cents, so that my per cents, for the Boston & Maine passenger service are below the rail per cent., but using the 4.10, the ex- cess over this schedule is 19.3 per cent. When it comes to the freight schedule rate on the Boston & Maine, that is 4.7 cents, for Consolidation engines, and 4.3 cents, for the other engines. The rate paid for the freight engines, for that week was 7.25 cents per engine mile run, which is an excess over the schedule rate of anywhere from 54.3 per cent, to 68.6 per cent. Thus probably, from what Mr. Lee, the General Superintendent, tells me, the average will be close to 60 or 61 per cent., if you allow for the engines, as they made the miles. Now, this excess over the schedule rate paid is to be found in the roads and allowances and overtime that the men make on 803 the road are before starting, and everything for which the com- pany pays out money to the engineer. The Chairman: It is largely from overtime, is it? Mr. Horn : No, I could not say that. For instance, on the New Haven we have what they call the double overtime, and I do not think the amount of the overtime, in hours, is heavy, compared with possibly some other roads. I know that the pen- alty is heavy, but it is to be found in the allowance in the rule, and it is what it costs the company to get an engine over the road. Mr. Morrissey: You haven't the double overtime on the Boston & Maine? Mr. Horn: No. Mr. Duncan : Do you make any allowances for learning the road? Would that in any way affect this increased rate? Mr. Horn: Last November, or rather, when the November operating figures came in, some of the figures were a little bit out of joint, and I began to try to find out what was the mat- ter with some of our road expenses. The rules in the schedule are pretty complicated; they are rather hard for a stranger, unless he puts in a good deal of time, to find out what they really mean; but the way to really tell is to see what we are paying when a man makes this run, so we have a little book here. It was brought out that we paid $1,212.50 for engineers learning the road during the month of November. Well, now, I was rather surprised to see why we should have to pay $1,212.50 for men learning the road, when the busi- ness, in November, was considerably less, in both the passen- ger and freight, than it was the month before, October. So I asked for a list of the men that had drawn time for learning the road, and this is a memorandum from my files, and I would like to read you a few of the cases. Here is a man between Plainville and Northampton, that is a single track road, where there are 14 trains. He got $24.60 for learning 25 miles of single track, and also the same month he got $20.50 for learning 50 miles of track between Cedar Hill and Midway. That is a double track road, that has 75 trains a day over that part of it. That man had had eleven years' experience on the New Haven, either as fireman or engineer, six of it as engineer. 804 Xow, in another place, which is rather exceptional, there- is a charge for learning the road, over the Boston & Albany, where they had nine miles of new run. One man who had had 26 years of service got $12.30 for learning nine miles of run.. Another man, between Needham Junction and Medfield, who had bad 20 years' service, got $8.20 for learning seven miles of double track. Xow, those are the allowances that the men got for learn- ing the road. They are some of the things that go into this high rate, per engine mile, which we have above the 4.10, or the 4.65 rate on the New Haven; but we have some rules that are unusual, and there is where the money comes from. Now, I would like to speak of this double overtime. I don't want to run through these rules. In the first place, I cannot do it, I do not understand, them well enough. The only way I can interpret a rule is tp go to the timekeeper and see what he • is paying out for it, and if he makes a mistake there are some gentlemen scattered along the road that come in and mention it, so I assume we pay what the schedule requires. Now, on this double overtime, which it has been brought out, has been in existence since 1886, ordinarily a man that runs 150 miles in 15 hours, will get the scheduled rate for 150 miles. On the New Haven, we let him have 200 miles, or 33 1 /} per cent, in excess of the going rate. Mr. Duncan : Why do you do that '! Mr. Thorn : I have never been able to find out anyone who knew when that rule started, or who was responsible for it. It is already 26 years old, at least, and that is as far back as any one has traced it ; it may be older. Mr. Morrissey : Did I understand you to say, if a man ran 100 miles and used 15 hours, under tbe rule in effect on the New Haven, they would pay him the equivalent of 200 miles! Mr. Horn : If I said that I made a mistake. Mr. Butterfield: He did not say that. Mr. Horn : IS he runs 150 miles in 15 hours on most of the roads, he gets the rate for 150 miles, 10 miles an hour. On the New Haven, if he runs 150 miles in 15 hours, he gets 200 miles for it. Mr. Duncan : That is what Mr. Stone calls a "big red apple in storage," over on your line, is it? 805 Mr. Horn : That is his expression. Mr. Shaw: Is that on account of the double overtime? Mr. Horn : That is on account of the double overtime, purely. The Chairman: Do you know on how many roads that ob- tains, that double overtime? Mr. Horn: 1 have never heard of a road that pays it, al-' though everybody says there are some; but it has not been, pointed out to me yet. Now I would like to speak a little bit about some of our runs. There has been a good deal said about the figures in the black book being unreliable Mr. Judson: What do you call the "black book?" Mr. Horn: This book (indicating). I am afraid that is a bad name for it. Now, those rates named in the black book, Doctor, are, as far as I know, all right. When this controversy came up and it was decided to handle it in the manner that we did, I asked for one of the timekeepers, from one of the di- visions to be relieved from all his work and be assigned the duty of preparing these slips and seeing that he understood Mr. Quick and that the timekeepers understood him ; and he was to do what he could to prevent any mistakes in making up a lot of figures like that in a hurry. I believe the figures will starrb a pretty good test and we will be glad to subject them to any kind of a test that your experts will select. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Horn, I notice that in Exhibit No. 18, the New Haven Eoad, is missing, the figures do not appear. Mr. Horn: No. 18, Mr. Morrissey? Mr. Morrissey : Yes. Mr. Horn: Some of our figures, Mr. Morrissey, were late in getting in, but I understand they are all in. Which is the ore. Mr. Morrissey: Sheet 4, of Exhibit 18. It gives the aver- age of freight trips. Mr. Horn : Well now, our figures were evidently behind the printing of those, and why, I don't know, except that we were' not fast enough; and I have assumed they are already in and you have copies of them. Mr. Quick : In all probability they are in the office. Mr. Horn: I have them here in pencil on mine. Is there any question you wanted to ask? 806 Mr. Morrissey: The point is, that not having the average freight trips, the Board might not have a good idea of the amount of this double overtime that is paid by the New Haven Eoad. Mr. Horn: The amount paid for the double overtime, to my mind, does not really indicate the viciousness of such a rate. It is exactly like my looking into a window where something is so high that I cannot buy it. It does not cost me anything. Now, if we had the so-called standard rates — and by the way 1 think this sort of a standardization that is proposed here is nothing but a fake, — but if we had the rates that the so-called standard rate mentions, we could run some of our trains differ- ently from the way we do. We could not be penalized for over- time the way nobody else is penalized, and some of our opera- tions, I am confident, could be worked out on a more economical basis, so the amount of overtime, on account of this double over- lime that is paid on the New Haven does not really indicate the viciousness of the principle. i Mr. Morrissey : In other words, I am to understand that you could keep the men out longer than you do now, and not pay them any more money. Mr. Horn: I rather think you are right, Mr. Morrissey, on that; we could make the runs so that we could do what is con- sidered good railroad practice. Mr. Morrissey: Where are we to get those figures? Mr. Horn: Why, you can have my book, or Mr. Quick, I suppose, will give them out. Mr. Van Hise: According to my understanding, I think it has been said already, that in all these cases the missing fig- ures will be given to us. That was said by Mr. Duncan, and I suppose applies to these. Mr. Morrissey: There is nothing in this sheet to indicate the New Haven is missing until you go to look for the road; it is not there at all. Mr. Quick: Mr. Morrissey, the corrected copy is in the hands of the printer, and will come as soon as they can finish and we will fill in these exhibits. : Mr. Horn : They are not all missing, Mr. Morrissey. That one table, I think, is the only one where the New Haven fig- ures are missing. 807 Mr. Morrissey: That is the first one I found where a road is missing entirely. The road does not appear there. There are some other tables where the name of the road appears, but no figures are given, but in this case the name of the road, as well as the figures, are missing. Mr. Judson: Would these demands of the engineers cause the New Haven Road to pay out more money than it does now? Mr. Horn: The per cent., as I remember, Mr. Judson, from the black book, is 14.5 per- cent., or possibly $250,000. Those figures are given in the exhibit. On the Boston & Maine, it foots up practically $300,000. Now, that is the money to the engineers. It might be well to mention the Boston & Maine right now, $300,000 to the engi- neers' increase, and if the same per cent, of increase was given to most of the other employes drawing wages, or salaries — not all — the engineers, plus the others, that is — raising the payroll the same per cent. — would amount to $3,000,000 on the Boston & Maine. The exact figures are in this book. Mr. Judson: Yes. That is an increase over these rates that you have been describing. i Mr. Horn : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson: These payments. Mr. Horn: Exactly; over the present rates. Mr. Judson : Yes. Mr. Horn: Now, last year, the fiscal year ending June 30th, 1911, the Boston & Maine had $300,000 to pay out in divi- dends. They paid out $1,900,000, or they paid out $1,600,000 that they did not earn. Add $3,000,000 more to the payroll, and it will leave a deficit of close to $5,000,000. That means that the Boston & Maine will not be able to meet its interest, the dividends, which have been reduced from six, to four per cent, abeady, will be gcr.e ; the interest on its bonds will be gone, and they will still need something like a million dollars to pay rentals of other lines that they are paying for; leased lines. I Mr. Van Hise : Did I understand you to say it would not be able to even pay interest on bonds? Mr. Horn: No, sir, there would be nothing for dividends; there would be nothing for interest on the bonds; and they will 808 not be able to pay for the rental of some of their leased lines r which, as I understand it, means that the system will disinte- grate. Now, this financial part of it I am going to leave to Mr.. Robbins, for the details. He has followed along with the New Haven finances and he has followed along with the Boston & Maine, more or less, and if you want to get the real figures" I believe he can give them to you much better than a man who has hardly had time to more than glance at them. Mr. Judson: You are simply giving us then, the result of your examination of the black book? Mr. Horn: Yes, sir; it does not necessarily mean, if you give the engineers $300,000 you will have to give everybody else put together, $2,700,000, but there is something coming; we- know that. You cannot start the engineers without having, the rest follow. Now, on this list of runs, here is a file that I borrowed from the General Superintendent's office. It has a list of 343 week- day and 173 Sunday runs, a total of 516 runs- and a good many of the runs that you find in the black book are described in this book. That little memorandum is pinned in here telling how the man made hjis money, and I have a memorandum of 15, or 20, of them. This was the card that was in effect last October (handing card to the Chairman), and I have also asked for the file from the General Superintendent's office, of the same thing,. for the existing card, that is, the summer card, but it is not quite complete, and while we have been here, the timekeeper has worked out some of the runs in lead pencil. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Horn, suppose you take one of the runs., as merely illustrating what you intend to prove ? For instance.. Shore Line Division, Eun No. 1. Mr. Horn : Shore line Division, Eun No. 1. Now, I am read- ing from the card of last October 1st, 1911. Train 612, New Haven to Boston, Engineers Champaigne- and Allen, report for duty at 10 :14 A. M., leave at 11 :14 A. M. ; that is one hour later, and arrive at Boston 5 :25 P. M. This is- a six day run of 160 miles ; paid the engineer $6.56. Now, you will find in those notes, if you look at that par- ticular run 809 Mr. Duncan : You mean a six day run instead of a six hour run? Mr. Horn : Six day run, yes sir. Mr. Judson: What do you mean by that? Mr. Horn : Do not run on Sunday. The distance is 156 miles, but he gets an allowance of 160 miles on account, as I remember, of a mile in New Haven and a mile in Boston each way, for go- ing to and from the roundhouse. So, it is figured as a 160-mile run. He also gets one hour extra, every day, at New London, for setting back a mail car for which he receives 41 cent's in addition to that, so that the engineer, if he follows that run, has $181.22 a month. Mr. Duncan: That is, if he runs six days in the week? Mr. Horn: That is, if he runs six days in the week. His actual working day is 7 hours and 11 minutes. Mr. Morrissey : Is there a mail car on that train every day I Mr. Horn : Yes. Mr. Duncan : Suppose you take the Shore Line Division, run No. 24. Mr. Horn : Shore Line Division, run No. 24, is made up of trains Nos. 288, 293, 4 and 1. Between Stamford and New Haven, engineer Taylor was on this run. He reports for duty at 5 :57 P. M., and arrives back in Stamford, at the end of the run, at 5:58 A. M. This is a seven day run, of 168 miles, with two hours overtime. It pays the engineer $7.71. Also, he gets one hour extra every day, at either South Norwalk, or Bridge- port, on account of setting off a baggage car, for which he re- ceives 41 cents in addition, so that his daily rate is $8.12, and, if he follows this run for 31 days, with his overtime, he earns $251.72. His actual time on duty is five hours and 14 minutes, 3>er day run. Mr. Duncan : Suppose you take Shore Line run No. 26. Mr. Horn: Shore Line run No. 26 is for Shore Line trains 34, 3, 276 and 5, between Stamford and New Haven, engineer Curnon. He reports for duty at 2 :32 A. M., and arrives back in Stamford^ at the end of the run, at 1:20 P. M. This is a six! day run of 168 miles, and one hour overtime, which pays the engineer $7.30. Mr. Morrissey: How many single trips are there in that Tnileage? 810 Mr. Horn : He goes one way on 34, back on No. 3 ; one way on 276 and back on 5. Mr. Morrissey : Two round trips between Stamford and New Haven? Mr. Horn : Yes, that is it. The same, I believe, as the other was, except the other was a seven day run and this is a six day run. Mr. Judson : About 35, or 45 miles ? Mr. Horn : 42 miles, or close to it. Now, he gets, in addition to that $7.30, one hour extra, every day, at New Haven, for cut- ting off a car and placing same on the head end of train No. 1012, so he draws monthly Mr. Duncan : Does he get paid for that? Mr. Horn : Yes, he gets 41 cents, for setting off that car. He gets monthly $200.47, if he follows the run for six days a week, and spends six hours and 46 minutes on duty, if his train is on time. Mr. Duncan: That would give him his Sundays at home? Mr. Horn: Yes. Mr. Duncan: And, make his daily wage $7.71, would it? Mr. Horn: $7.71, yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Suppose he does not set off that car at New Haven, is he entitled to the pay ? Mr. Horn : No. Mr. Morrissey: Is there a switch engine, at New Haven? Mr. Horn? Yes. Mr. Morrissey : Is there anything to prohibit it from taking hold of that car and setting it off? Mr. Horn: No, that work should be done by a switch en- gine, and on most of the trains it is switched that way. That is a rather unusual movement, but there are a good many of those. I do not think it takes him ten minutes to do it. Mr. Morrissey: Isn't that allowance in recognition of the fact that he is doing work that properly belongs to a switch engine ? Mr. Horn: Yes, certainly it is; it is a rather fine point to take. Mr. Morrissey : And, would not a similar service be paid for on practically any road in the country? 811 Mr. Horn : I never figured it, Mr. Morrissey, whether it is paid for anywhere else. Mr. Willard : Do you wish to be understood, Mr. Horn, as stating that the setting off of a car by a passenger engine, at a station, is, properly, work that is classified, as switch engine work, work that ought to be done, without qualification, by a switch engine! I so understand your statement. Mr. Horn: Under our schedule, Mr. Willard, we pay an hour's time for just that work, where there is a switch engine employed. Mr. Willard: That is the requirement, on your road? Mr. Horn: On our road, yes. It may be that other roads, pay that. I am not familiar with that. Now, that engineer, as I think I mentioned, was on duty six hours and 46 minutes, and earned $200.47, on a six day run. Mr. Morrissey: Is that his actual time on the rails, or did it take into consideration the duties he may have been perform- ing between trips? Mr. Horn : That is on duty, Mr. Morrissey ; that is the time he would be on his engine, ordinarily ; not pulling the train. The run from New Haven to Stamford, I imagine, for all those trains, is close to an hour, either way, so on those four runs he would actually be pulling his train close to four hours, but he is on duty six hours and 46 minutes. Mr. Judson : Do you pay them from the time they, go on duty, or from the time they actually move the train, or from the time they are called? Mr. Horn : He is paid per mile, with a lot of allowances in the schedule, for the other things he does. Mr. Judson: Is he' allowed from the time he is called? Mr. Horn : In some cases he will get it. Here he would not get it. He gets miles here. He makes 168 miles a day, and one hour's overtime, because from the time he starts, 2.32 o'clock in the morning, until the time he ends, is close to eleven hours. Mr. Judson : What rate per 100 miles is he paid? Mr. Horn : $4.10 for the 100 miles he runs, and he gets, I think, two hours overtime in that, and 41 cents for setting out a car, so that his daily rate is $7.71, and he- runs 168 miles. Mr. Judson? Have you figured up what that engineer would get if you had in force the rate of $4.60 per 100 miles? I assume that engine is over 20 inches in diameter. 812 Mr. Horn: I don't know the engine that is on that run. It would just add about eleven per cent to that amount; it would add $20, if I have understood your question to that monthly earning — $22 I should have said. Mr. Judson: Do you know the size of the engine on those trains? They are large engines, with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter? Mr. Horn : We have in passenger service on the New Haven Road, 92 engines over 20 inches, and in freight service 29 en- gines; that is, we have 121 engines that are over 20 inches, V\ passenger and freight service, and I do not know whether that engine that runs on this run is one of those or not. Mir. Duncan: Suppose you take the Boston Division run No. 5, on train 32, which is a six day run. Mr. Horn : The Boston Division run, train 32, between New Haven and Boston, engineer Fletcher, reports at 12.35 A. M. and is relieved at Boston, at 7.16 A. M. This is a six day run, 160 miles, which pays the engineer $6.50. He also gets one hour each day, for picking up a car at Providence and also gets one hour each day for terminal delay at Boston. In each of those cases he gets 41 cents at Providence, and 41 cents for the hour's terminal delay at Boston, so his daily pay is $7.38. The en- gineer's actual time at work, is five hours and 31 minutes. Mr. Duncan : His monthly pay is how much ? Mr. Horn : His monthly pay is $191.88 for the six day run. Mr. Duncan: Assuming that he works six days in a week? Mr. Horn: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Does he always pick up the car at Provi- dence ? Mr. Horn: That is the memorandum, yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Why does not the switch engine put in on his train? Mr. Horn: I don't know, Mr. Morrissey. That may be a hard combination in there for the switch engine to get at it,— at that particular time, that the trains are in there. Mr. Morrissey: Under what circumstances is he allowed one hpur's terminal delay at Boston, for each trip? Mr. ?Iorn : That is the allowance he gets for being delayed in getting to the roundhouse. Sometimes, he gets in quickly and •sometimes, it is hard ; it is an allowance for being held out. 813 Mr. Morrissey: How far is the roundhouse from the pas- senger station? Mr. Horn: I would say between a mile and a half and two miles. How is that, Mr. Pollock? Mr. Pollock : I think it is probably a trifle less than a mile. Mr. Horn: Well, I am not very reliable on my distances, on either of these roads. Mr. Judson: Suppose the track is clear and he g§ts there in ten minutes, would he get the hour's allowance? Mr. Horn: T will have to ask the timekeeper on that. I cannot answer that. Mr. Morrissey : You are quite clear on those rates, though, aren't you? Mr. Horn: There are only two rates to remember in the New Haven schedule ; one is the $4.10 and the other is the $4.65. Now, the rest of the money is in rules, and they are intricate. Mr. Duncan: Suppose you take the next run, Boston Di- vision, run No. 8, on train 31. Mr. Horn: Boston Division, train 31, between Boston and New Haven. Engineer J. Senior. Beports for duty at 7.00 P. M. and is relieved at New Haven at 1.10 A. M. This is a six day run, of 160 miles and pays the engineer $6.56. He also gets one hour extra each day, for picking up a car at Provi- dence, for which he receives 41 cents. The Chairman: I think we might be able to shorten this a good deal, Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan: We might offer in evidence, so that the Com- mission may have it as illustrating what these men actually get, the statement that Mr. Horn has prepared, which is not intended to exhaust the list that he has given you, because it would take double the time and space, at least, but if the Commission is satisfied with that, I suggest we might ask leave to print the list. Mr. Judson : I suggest he might file the statement and give it to Mr. Stone, so he can ask questions about it. Mr. Duncan : Will you furnish the reporter a copy of that statement so that he may add to the record the remaining runs? Mr. Stone : Might I ask what the monthly rate was on that last run? You did not state it, and I would like to get it. Mr. Horn: Which run was that? 814 Mr. Judson: The Boston & Maine run. Mr. Horn: The Boston & Maine run No. 5, Engineer Fletcher? Mr. Stone: The last one you were reading from. Mr. Horn : That was $181.22. The statement is as follows: Shore Line Division Run No. 1. Shore Line train 612, New Haven to Boston, Engineers Champaigne and Allen. Report for duty at 10 :14 A. M., leave at 11:14 A. M. and arrive at Boston 5:25 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 160 miles which pays the* engineer $6.56^ Engineer also gets one hour extra every day at New Lon- don for setting off a mail car 41. Engineers hourly pay is $ .96 daily " " 6.97 monthly " " 181.22 (for 1 man.) Engineer on actual working duty, 7 hours 11 minutes^ Shoee Line Division No. 24. Shore Line trains 288-293-4-1 between Stamford and New Haven, Engineer Taylor. Reports for duty at 5:57 P. M. and arrives back in Stamford at end of run at 5 :58 A. M. This is a 7 day run of 168 miles and 2 hours overtime which pays engineer $7.71 Also gets 1 hour extra every day at either South Nor- walk or Bridgeport on account of setting off a baggage car 4L Engineers hourly pay is ....... .$ 1.56 daily* "* " 8.12 monthly " " 251.72 (for 1 man.) Engineer on actual duty 5 hours and 14 minutes. 815 Shoee Line Division Bun No. 26. Shore Line trains 34-3-276-5 between Stamford and New Haven, Engineer Curnon. Eeports for duty 2:32 A. M. and arrives back in Stamford at end of run at 1:20 P. M. This is .a 6 day run of 168 miles and 1 hour overtime which pays engineer , $7.30 Also gets 1 hour extra every day at New Haven for cut- ting off car and placing same on head end of #1012. . .41 Engineers hourly pay is $ 1.14 daily " " 7.71 " monthly ". " 200.47 (for 1 man.) Engineer on actual duty 6 hours 46 minutes. Note. — Providence Division have no cases which are a reg- ular proposition. Have a few cases which occur occasionally. Boston Division Run No. 5. Boston Division trains 617 and 669 between Boston and New Haven, Engineer Johnson. Reports for duty 11:40 A. M. and relieved at New Haven 8 :05 P. M. This is a 7 day run of 160 miles which pays engineer. ., $6.56 -Also gets 1 hour each day for picking up car at Providence .41 Engineers hourly rate is $ .83 " daily " " 6.97 monthly " " 216.07 (for 1 man.) Engineer on actual working duty 8 hours and 25 min- utes. Boston Division Run No. 5. Boston Division train 32 between New Haven and Boston, Engineer Fletcher. Reports for duty 12:45 A. M. and re- lieved at Boston 7 :16 A. M. This is a 6 day run of 160 miles which pays engineer. ., $6.56 Also gets 1 hour each day for picking up car at Providence .41 Also gets 1 hour each day for Terminal delay at Boston .41 Engineers hourly pay is $ 1.32 " daily' "' " 7.38 monthly " " 191.88 (for 1 man.) Engineer on actual working duty 5 hours and 31 min- utes. 816 Boston Division Run No. 8. Boston Division train 31 between Boston and New Haven r Engineer J. Senior. Reports for duty at 7 :00 P. M. and relieved at New Haven at 1 :10 A. M. This is a 6 day run of 160 miles which pays Engineer $6.56' Also gets 1 hour extra each day for picking up a car a ( t Providence 41. Engineers hourly pay is $1.12 daily " " 6.97 monthly " " 181.22 for (1) Engineers on actual working duty 6 hours and 10 minutes. Boston Division Run No. 76. Boston Division train 5029, Boston to Providence, Engi- neer Barton. Reports for duty 7 :08 A. M. and relieved at: Provincetown 12:20 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 120 miles which pays engineer $4.92 Also gets 1 hour each day at Middleboro for picking up car .41 Engineers hourly pay is $1.02 daily " " 5.33 monthly " " 138.58 for (1) Engineer on actual working duty 5 hours and 12 minutes. Boston Division Run No. 76. Boston Division train, 5212, Provincetown to Boston, En- gineer Sawyer. Reports Provincetown 1 :53 P. M. and relieved,, at Boston, at 7 :50 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 120 miles which pays engineer $4.92. Also gets 1 hour each day at Boston for Terminal delay . .41 Engineers hourly rate is $.90 daily " " 5.33 monthly " " 138.58 for (1) Engineer on actual working duty 5 hours and 57 minutes. 817 Old Colony Division Run No. 76. Old Colony trains 6000, 6033, 6037, New Bedford to Lowell- Engineer Geddes, Sr. Reports New Bedford 5 :03 A. M. and re- lieved at 2 :50 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 162 miles which pays engineer $6.64 Also gets 2 miles each day at New Bedford for taking train 6000 from yard to station 08 Engineers hourly rate is $.84 daily " " 6.72 monthly " " 174.72 for (1) Engineer on actual working duty 8 hours and 2 minutes. Old Colony Division Run No. 86. Old Colony train 6114, to 6117, inclusive, between Newport and Fall River, and Mansfield, Engineer Carpenter. Reports for duty 11:43 A. M. and relieved 11:35 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 171 miles which pays the Engineer $7.83 Engineers hourly rate is $.66 daily' " " 7.83 monthly " " 203.58 for (1) ^Engineer on actual working duty 11 hours and 52 minutes. Midland Division Run No. 3. Midland Division train 112 between Willimantic and Bos- ton, Engineer Langtry. Reports for duty at 5:40 A. M. and arrives in Boston 9 :45 A. M. This is a 6 day run of 86 miles which pays engineer $4.10 Also gets 1 hour extra every day at Willimantic for pick- ing up a milk car 41 Engineers hourly pay is $1.08 daily " " 4.51 monthly " " 117.26 for (1) TUngineer on actual duty, 4 hours and 5 minutes. 818 Midland Division Run No. 3. Midland Division train 112, between Millimantic and Bos- ton, Engineer Page. Reports for duty 5 :30 A. M. and relieved at Boston at 10 :42 A. M. This is a 6 day run of 86 miles which pays engineer $4.10 Also gets 1 hour each day for picking up car at Putnam. . .41 Also gets 1 hour each day for Terminal delay at Boston. . .41 Engineers hourly pay is $.96 daily "" " 4.92 monthly " " 127.92 for (1) Engineer on actual woi'king duty 5 hours and 12 minutes. Midland Division Run No. 26. Midland Division trains 1014 and 1033 between Willimantic and Providence' Engineer Parker. Reports for duty at 9 :17 A. M. and arrives in Willimantic on 1033 at 6 :42 P. M. This is a 6tlay run of 122 miles which pays engineer $5.00 Also gets 1 hour extra each day at Willimantic for switch- ing train 1033 for New Haven crew 41 Engineers hourly pay is $1.08 daily " " 5.41 monthly " " 140.66 for (1) Engineer on actual duty 5 hours. Western Division Run No. 1. Western Division trains 1409-1428 between Pittsfield, New Haven, Engineers Kingsley and McDermott. Report for duty at 6:30 A. M. and arrive back at Pittsfield, on 1428 at 8:29 P. Mj. This is a 6 day run, of 242 miles, which pays thjs engineers $9.92 Also gets 1 hour extra each day for hostling Engines • after arrival of 1428 41 Engineers hourly pay is .$ 1.08 daily " " 10.33 monthly" " 268.58 for (2) Engineer on actual duty 9 hours and 29 minutes. 819 Western Division Run No. 3. Western Division train 1416 to 1427 inclusive between Bridgeport and Botsford, Engineer Tibbals. Reports for duty at 9 :20 A. M. and arrives back in Bridgeport, at end of run on 1427 at 7 :29 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 66 miles which pays Engineer $ 4.10 Engineers hourly pay is $ 1.08 daily " " 4.10 monthly " " 106.60 for (1)* Engineer on actual duty 3 hours and 43 minutes. * This crew also receives 1 hour extra every Wednesday for handling pay car between Bridgeport and E. Bridgeport — $1.64 per month. Western Division Run No. 12. Western Division Trains 1403, to 1430, inclusive, between Ansonia and New Haven, Engineer Quinn: Reports for duty 6 :37 A. M. and arrives back, at Ansonia on 1430, at end of run at 8 :11 P. M. This is a 7 day run of 129 miles and 4 hours over- time which. pays the Engineer $6.93 Also gets 1 hour extra 6 days a week for picking up a car at Ansonia .41 Engineers hourly pay is $ .84 daily " " 7.34 monthly" " 225.49 for (1) Engineer on actual duty 8 hours and 36 minutes. Western Division Run No. 20. Western Division trains 1703, and 134, between Hartford and Poughkeepsie, Engineers Barns and Swain. Report for duty at 6 :20 A. M. and arrive back in Hartford on 134, at 4 :50 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 230 miles which pays the Engi- neer $ 9.43 Also gets 1 hour extra each day, for switching train 1703, at Poughkeepsie 41 Engineers hourly pay is $ 1.02 daily " " 9.84 " monthly " " 225.84 for (2) Engineers on actual duty 9 hours, 42 minutes. 820 Western Division Run No. 21. Western Division trains 117, and 1704, between Hartford and Poughkeepsie, Engineers Broughton and Howard. Eeport for duty at 9.55 A. M. and arrive back in Hartford on 1704, at 8 :50 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 230 miles which pays" Engi- neers $ 9.43 Also gets 1 hour extra every day for switching train 117 at Poughkeepsie .41 Engineers hourly pay is $ .96 daily* " " 9.84 monthly" " 225.84 for (2) Engineer on actual duty 9 hours and 49 minutes. Western Division Run No. 24. Western Division trains 122-121 between Poughkeepsie ar.d Danbury, Engineer P. Clark. Reports for duty at 6:57 A. M. and arrives back in Poughkeepsie, at end of run at 5:04 P. M. This is a 6 day run of 86 miles which pays the Engineer a day's pay $ 4.10 Also gets one hour extra every day at Poughkeepsie for switching train 122 , .41 Also gets one hour extra every day at Poughkeepsie (in the winter time) for heating train 122 .41 Engineers hourly pay is $ .84 daily "" " 4.92 monthly" " 127.92 for (1) Engineer on actual duty 6 hours and 2 minutes. Mr. Duncan : We will have an extra copy of that statement in a moment for you, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : 1 would be very glad to have it. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. Horn, referring to this proposal of the engineers relating to the operation of electric trains where trackage rights are leased to holding companies. Mr. Horn: Mr. Atterbury told of his troubles on the Penn- sylvania. Ours are ahead of us on the New Haven. We have not actually had anything just like that yet, but we have practi- 821 cally the assurance of some of the committeemen that we are going to have it, and the situation is this : There is the New- York, Westchester & Boston, a line that is hardly completed, but a little of it is in operation. Mr. Duncan: What is it, an electric line? Mr. Horn : It is ■ an electric line. It was built originally to keep a lot of the New Haven passenger business out of the Grand Central station. The terminal cost for each passenger is estimated at anywhere from 20, to 25 cents, when the present terminal station is completed. As to the financial part of that, I think, if you want to go into it, Mr. Eobins had better give you what memoranda you want, but it is estimated it will cost us for terminal expense for fixed charges between 20 and 25 cents, for each passenger we handle. Mr. Van Hise: That terminal station is where? Mr. Horn: 42nd Street. It is known as the New York Central station. We do not want to overload the terminal with that kind of business. I don't know how much money we get for it, I don't believe 10 cents, a passenger, and if it costs 25 cents, there is really not very much in it for us. Now, that line is being built. When it is finished it will use about 5 miles of the New Haven from Harlem Eiver to West Farms and use a stretch farther up of six, or seven miles. Last December, the committee, the Chairman of the Con- ductors, Trainmen and the Engineers and the Firemen, ad- dressed a note to our president and asked for a seance, saying they had had the subject of splitting this road up with New Haven men, up with some of the officers, including myself, and could not get any satisfaction, and they would like to have him fix the thing up. There has nothing come of it so far and I don't know whether it is half in joke, or whether it is somewhat serious or not, but we are assured that when the thing starts running over the New Haven we will have the same thing to work out that the Pennsylvania has. There has been nothing so far, but more or less informal and good natured discussion, because we have refused to discuss the matter with the com- mittee in its present state. Mr. Duncan : Well, the Westchester Eoad would be suburban service I Mr. Horn: Yes. , 822 Mr. Duncan: And, would have a separate organization? Mr. Horn: Yes. Mr. Duncan : Separate officers ? Mr. Horn: Yes; it is officered by men that are not on the- New Haven. Mr. Duncan: The New Haven would not control it? Mr. Horn : That is it. Mr. Eidlitz : Are you going to give it the New Haven over- head type of electrical power? Mr. Horn: Yes; the equipment is so that it will run — it will take our current. In fact, I believe the contract for the cur- rent has been — well, all parts of the contract I imagine have been worked out. That was all done before I came here; and they are all actually getting current from us now, and will shortly run over our rails. Now, there is one point I would like to bring out that is a little different from the Pennsylvania. Mr. Eidlitz : Let me ask one question there : Do you expect, to operate, Mr. Horn, multiple unit trains, or just the same type you are operating over the New Haven? Mr. Duncan : He does not expect to operate it at all. Mr. Horn: I have never been over a foot of it, so really do not know where it is, except by the map. Mr. Duncan : The New York & Westchester Company pro- poses to operate in connection with its own line, approximately five miles over your rails. Mr. Horn: Yes. Mr. Duncan : And, will take its own cars off of its line and run them over your line with its own men? Mr. Horn : Yes. Mr. Eidlitz: I understood you to say it was to prevent this road from paying terminal rates in the Grand Central station. Mr. Horn : There is a large growth of suburban business ex- pected, if you are talking from the Westchester standpoint. Mr. Eidlitz: I have not been able to find out whether you are talking from the standpoint of the New York & Westchester, or the New York & New Haven. Mr. Horn: I am talking from the standpoint of the New York, New Haven & Hartford. Their troubles, they will have to look out for, themselves. 823 Mr. Judson : I do not see liow their troubles are going to help us any. Mr. Horn : Because the New Haven men say they are going to man those trains when they come on their road. That is the request they have made. Mr. Duncan: Your answer is, you do not control those men? Mr. Horn : We have nothing to do with them ; we are simply giving them a portion of our tracks to run over. Mr. Morrissey: What is the relation of the New York & Westchester road to the New York, New Haven & Hartford? Mr. Horn : As to ownership '? Mr. Morrissey: Yes. Mr. Horn: I do not really know, Mr. Morrissey, but I im- agine that we have put up most of the money to build it. Mr. Morrissey: Well, then, Mr. Horn, is not the Westches- Eoad you speak of, the New Haven Road under a different name? Mr. Horn: No, it isn't that. We have a good many subur- ban lines scattered through New England. This is just one of them as I look at it. Mr. Morrissey: Is it the intention that this rOad shall han- dle some of the traffic now handled by the New Haven trains? Mr, Horn : More particularly what grows from now on. I do not think that the Westchester will take any of the business away from the New Haven now, but as it grows, why We hope that it will get all the growth. Mr. Duncan: Well, the Westchester operations will not dis- place the engineers on your road? Mr. Horn: No. Now, can I mention one point there? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Horn: This Westchester, sir, as it is operated, will not have any conductors, any brakemen, any firemen. They are run- ning the train with a motorman and guards, just the subway operation. Mr. Judson : Who collects the fares? Mr. Horn : They have a gate for collecting the fare as a man goes in, and, as I understand, another one, as he comes out. They seem to be satisfied with that method. Mr. Judson: Have you many railroads controlled by the New York, New Haven & Hartford in New England — electric roads, standing in about that position? 824 Mr. Horn : I have not gotten that far along in my work, Mr. Judson; I suspect, though, we own a good many trolley lines in New England. Mr. Duncan: You do not have anything to do with their operation? Mr. Horn : Nothing at all. Mr. Duncan: Well, it is a fact that they own and control" practicially all the electric trolley lines Tn New England, is it not — the system"? Mr. Horn : I think if you want to get the facts you had bet- ter ask Mr. Bobbins, because I haven't even attempted to ques- tion anybody on that subject. Mr. Judson: Have you had any question with the unions about the manning of those electric lines that you control in 1 . New England? Mr. Horn: No; the officers operating those lines have their/ own troubles with the unions on those lines. Mr. Judson: They have another union, have they? Mr. Horn: They don't ask us to handle their unions. The Chairman : That is the Amalgamated Street Car Union, or something like that, the Mahon organization? Mr. Horn: I am sure I don't know, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Judson: Have you gone far enough in the New Haven system to have any opinion as to the adoption of electricity on the main lines of the New Haven? Do you see any probability of that, or any tendency toward it? Mr. Horn: Yes; this zone that we have discussed so far, that goes as far east as Stamford, is to be extended to New Haven. The work is actually under way, and I hope that we will have some of it in operation by the first of January. That will give us a reasonable run, for our electric engines. Mr. Judson: You will run all your passenger trains then between New York and New Haven', by electricity? Mr. Horn: Yes; and all the freight that goes to Harlem River. Mr. Morrissey : Will this Westchester road haul any freight? Mr. Horn: No, not that I know of. It is connected up, as I understand, to run right down into New York through subway or elevated, or wherever it wants to go. 825 Mr. Eidlitz: Third rail equipment, Mr. Witness, or over- lead? Mr. Ho'rn: Overhead. Mr. Bobbins : It is capable of going both ways. Mr. Judson: Is that all, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: One more question. Has there been any in- crease in size of engine on the New Haven road, in recent years! Mr. Horn: The freight engines, the present freight engine that we are using to-day, we started in 1896, 16 years ago. We have been getting them in so that we have possibly 240, now. There is less than 2,000 pounds difference in the driver weight for 16 years, and there have been none of them purchased since 1907, 1 fancy you do not know how many we get each year., The last was in 1907. But, the engine is essentially the same .to-day as it was 16 years ago. Mr. Judson: Well, the New Haven is one of the few rail- -roads in the country whose passenger business equals in mag- nitude and profit the freight business, is it not? Mr. Horn: I would like to give you those figures in train :miles. Mr. Judson. Mr. Judson: Just the general facts; the details are not important. Mr. Horn : We ran about 14 million passenger miles in the calendar year 1911, we ran about 9 million freight miles, and in those freight miles something like 45, or 46 per cent, were what we call the through freight. Now, that does not mean that they would be fast freight necessarily, but it means that it was the train that the conductor got through rates on; it went right along; so that there is a shade over 80 per cent, of the road mileage that was made by trains that went right along, either passenger or through freight. Mr. Eidlitz : Mr. Horn, are all those who are running your electric service on these smaller divisions recruited from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers? Mr. Horn : Down here in New York, you mean, — from Stam- ford west? Mr. Eidlitz : All the lines that you are running. Mr. Horn : Mr. Pollock yesterday covered that memoranda, and I think I can find it. There is some little electric service 826 out at Aantasket Beach and some up at Providence, and some other places. I can find out. Mr. Eidlitz : Outside of the one, or two exceptions of small short rans, it is the fact you are using Brotherhood of Locomo- tive Engineer men, on all your electric equipment? Mr. Horn : Yes ; our electric equipment is all west of Stam- ford practically in the sense that we think you would use it. Mr. Eobbins : That does not include trolley lines. Mr. Horn : I am not talking ahout trolley lines ; I have nothing to do with trolley lines. The Chairman: Are you through? Mr. Duncan : Yes, sir. The Chairman: Mr. Stone. Cko^s-Examination : Mr. Stone: You spoke about these men that were killed in the electric zone, Mr. Horn, and you stated that one of them was killed while he was on top of the steam engine where he had no business to be, or "contrary to orders," I believe you worded it. Is it not a fact it was necessary for him to get on top of the locomotive to make the necessary repairs ! Mr. Horn: Which case do you refer to, Mr. Stone! Mr. Stone : I refer to the case where you said the engineer was on top of the steam engine contrary to instructions. Mr. Horn: All right, Engineer Phillips, yes. Mr. Stone : How could he clean out the sand pipes of this engine without getting on the engine? Mr. Iiorn: I don't believe he had to do it under those con- ditions. I wouldn't. Mr. Stone : Perhaps it was a bad rail, and it was necessary to have the sand pipes open in order to pull his tonnage, or to make necessary stops. Mr. Horn: I wouldn't deliberately risk my life to clean out a sand pipe on a locomotive engine. Mr. Stone : You probably would get discharged then, would you not? Mr. Horn : I believe I would prefer the discharge. Mr. Morrissey: Then a man has the alternative of death or discharge under those circumstances? 827 Mr. Horn: Why, I do not think discharge would have fol- lowed in that case, Mr. Morrissey. I haven't seen any mem- oranda of engineers discharged, for something of that sort. Mr. Stone: You state that a number of these men on the list that I filed — that my information is not incorrect. These men that have been in the electric zone ever since it has been in operation state that the information that you have filed here is not correct, so I guess we will have to leave it to the Board, to decide who is correct. This man who lost his balance and fell into the switch when he was trying to throw a Switch, where is the location of that switch, on a pole at the side of the track? Mr. Horn : On a pole, about ten feet from the ground. Mr. Stone: Is there any other way he could reach it ex- cept leaning out of his cab window? Mr. Horn: He was expected to reach it with a pole from the ground. Mr. Stone: From the ground? Mr. Horn: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is there a pole there on the ground for him to reach it with? Mr. Horn: He had one on his engine. Mr. Stone : The fact remains that while in the discharge of his duties he was badly burned and crippled for life? Mr. Horn: Yes. Mr. Stone: How do you reconcile that with the statement made by your expert yesterday that there is no danger from the electric current? • Mr. Horn : I did not interpret his testimony that there was no danger. If a man brushed into an 11,000 volt current. That is what this man did. Mr. Stone: There was no arcing across in this case at all! Mr. Horn : I would not think so. Mr. Stone: I believe you yourself issued the bulletin, did you not, that they must keep at least fourteen inches away from these overhead wires? Mr. Horn : In the exhibit that I handed you a copy of, Mr. Stone, the last page contains instructions and they are over the superintendent's signature. The first one is dated Decem- ber 20, 1906. Mr. Stone: I beg your pardon; I have been. so busy listen- ing to your testimony I have not had time to read the file of papers handed over. Do you remember how many other men have been killed, or injured by electric wires, or apparatus since the installation of the service? Mr. Horn: Where? Mr. Stone : On the New Haven. Mr. Horn: The exhibit covers all that. Mr. Stone: In regard to these figures you have submitted about the high rate .per mile, isn 't the result you obtain very misleading, from this fact : You take, for example, the long run on the Boston & Maine, where it was testified here the other day, where the man worked sixteen hours on a heavy local and got only 24 miles? Mr. Horn: That was Mr. Hallett's testimony? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Horn: What month was that run he was talking about? Mr. Stone: I guess he runs it every month. Mr. Horn : I will just see what Mr. Hallett earned. Mr. Stone : I am asking about how you computed this mile- age, to get your high rate per mile. Mr. Horn : I did not read from any Boston & Maine runs, if that is what you mean. Mr. Stone : How did you obtain it on the New Haven, did you srive any credit for mileage for an engine switching? Mr. Horn: Engine mileage credit? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Horn: No. Mr. Stone: It is possible for a man to run only 50 or 60 miles, and yet work twelve or fourteen hours? Mr. Horn: Those figures, Mr. Stone, have nothing to do with the earnings of the man per mile. It is the amount of money that the company pavs per mile that the engine ran. The statement of the runs that I read from, and which are filed with the stenographer, show what the men made.* Mr. Stone : Then what bearing does it have, how many miles the enaine ran, or what it cost per engine mile, if the earnings of the men has nothing to do with it? Mr. Horn: The amount of money that the company pays for engine miles run is a very material factor, I believe. 829 Mr. Stone : Is it not the fact that the man put in six miles an hour on their time slips, for every mile that they switch? Mr. Horn: I cannot answer for that. The engine miles would not be figured if it was; in those figures I have quoted you. Mr. Stone: It would not show? Mr. Horn : No. Mr. Stone: You spoke about a great many cases of men learning new divisions, and cited the cases of the men who have been so long in the employ; isn't it the fact that this is largely due to the present practice of running men over two or more different divisions! Mr. Horn: I think that it is due to the New Haven prac- tice of giving the men the rights over the territory they name, and they pick the runs. That would be my judgment as to that. Mr. Stone : It is the fact that if a man bids in a run on his own volition, on the New Haven Lines, it is at his own ex- pense that he learns? Mr. Horn: He does, but the man that is "bumped," does not. Mr. Duncan : What do you mean by ' ' bumped ? ' ' Mr. Horn : Displaced. There were about a dozen such cases in November, or there may have been more. I ran over it roughly. Mr. Stone : How many trains does the New Haven have that the runs are over 100 miles and the hours over ten! Mr. Horn: I cannot answer that offhand. Mr. Stone : You have no record of the number of runs over 100 miles and over ten hours? Mr. Horn: I don't think so, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone: This double time that you lay particular stress upon, is that largely a matter of sentiment! Mr. Horn: With whom? Mr. Stone: With the company. Mr. Horn : I don 't think any of our officers are sentimental, on that subject, Mr. Stone. Mr. Morrissey : I think I can vouch for you. Mr. Horn : Mr. Morrissey will vouch for me. Mr. Stone : I know it is enjoyable, Mr. Chairman, but I know every time we have gone up against them on this question — - 830 this is an old chestnut; this has been going on for 26 years — every time they make the claim that they do not care so much about it .themselves, but that they are roasted every time the officials have a meeting with the other roads. Mr. Horn: I don't call this being roasted by one of the- railroad officials, exactly, in this case, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : I am not a railroad official ; I do not lay any claim to that. Isn't it a fact that the reason the men hold to it. because they think it prevents having long hours! Mr. Horn: I suggest you get those facts from the mem themselves. They are more familiar with it than I. Mr. Stone : Isn 't it a fact that at the time of the last agree- ment you offered a higher rate if we would give up the over- time ? Mr. Horn : I wasn 't on the road at that time. Mr. Stone: You stated that if it was not for this double- overtime you could operate the road more economically. In what way? Mr. Horn: "Well, I think I can do better, if I pay $4.10, for running 150 miles in fifteen hours than if I pay $8.20. Mr. Stone: How many of those cases do you have in a year ? Mr. Horn : Those are cases that we do not have now, but I am inr-linded to think we would like to have some. Mr. Stone: That is the very question, Mr. Chairman; the- men want to hold onto it, to prevent having some of this. Mr. Horn: I would like to make the point that this is one- of the cases that this so-called standardization 1 is not going- to let go of, under the terms of the agreement. We still will go on Math this 33% per cent, excess of what most of the roads,, as far as I know, all the roads, are now paying. Mr. Stone : Is that the reason why you say that the stand- ard rate is a fake? Mr. Horn: That is one of them. Mr. Stone: Are there any other reasons you can think of?" Mr. Horn: This is a little memorandum, and learning the road is one, the rates that are named in the first part of my testimony, showing that the schedule of the New Haven or the- Boston & Maine, on account of the rules, are undoubtedly, very much higher than the roads in this territory, and, as I under- 831 stand your demand Qriequest, there is no intention in this stand- ardization, of letting go of any of those rules, and that is what makes me think, in a genera] way, the thing is a fake. Mr. Stone: Do you think the so-called standard rate, for trainmen and conductors is a fake? Mr. Horn: I am inclined to think there is a good deal of fake about it, with the trainmen and conductors, as far as New England is concerned. I haven't made a study of that, but there are one or two little items that make me think so. In the first place, there are considerable rules in the trainmen's schedule of the Boston & Maine and New Haven that are dif- ferent- The passenger conductors work 26 days of twelve hours per day, making 100 miles, receive $146.84, on the New Haven, and on the Boston & Maine $131.04. Now, they guarantee a certain amount of money to the conductors during the month. On the New Haven, if he gets any overtime, that does not count against his guarantee. He gets his guarantee, plus his over- time. On the Boston & Maine, he gets his guarantee, minus his overtime. That is, if he has made say $10 short of his guar- antee, and he has $10 worth of overtime, he don't get that $10, but on the New Haven he does, and on a long run $15.80 more, per month, besides. Now, I cannot tell you the details of either of the train- men's schedules, but there is one that I would call a clear difference in the so-called standard rate, and it is confined to the New England territory. Mr. Stone : Referring to that Boston Division train 32, I be- lieve that you stated that he was paid two hours each day, one at Providence for picking up a car and one at the Boston ter- minal. Would this terminal rule that we have asked for here, increase the pay, for laying in the Boston terminal! Mr. Horn: Why, I would say that, if my recollection of per cent is right, it would increase it 11 per cent. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that, at the present time you can hold the man in the Boston terminal 44 minutes without paying him anything? Mr. Horn: You know the schedule better than I do, but I am under the impression that we pay 45 minutes there. Mr. Stone : 45 minutes, one hour. Mr. Horn: Is it? 832 Mr. Stone: And, 44 minutes, nothing. Mr. Horn : I am afraid I cannot answer these rules for you. Mr. Stone: Well, you stated the run is $191.30, if I caught you correctly. Mr. Horn: Which run was that? Mr. Stone: On the Boston Division, train 32. Mr. Horn: What was the amount earned! Mr. Stone: $7.38 a day. The point I want to bring out is this, Mr. Horn. You could save two hours each day on that man by getting him out of his terminal and by having a switch engine to do the work. Mr. Horn : Have you ever tried to figure out what that would cost in Boston, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : No, but the point I make is this, you find it more economical to pay this man — Mr. Horn: Than to build a new terminal. Mr. Stone : Than to have a switch engine to do the work. Mr. Horn: No, no penalty we could pay in Boston would help us out a bit. It is the terminal itself which will have to be remodeled to remedy troubles of that sort. Mr. Stone : This New York, Westchester and something else electric line, you stated that was built to save terminal charges at 42nd Street? Mr. Horn: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact it was also put under other opera- tion to get cheap operation, to save paying standard rates ? Mr. Horn: I don't believe anybody that has ever tried to figure up expending $30,000,000, which they say is what that road costs, for nickels and ten cent pieces, in a thin territory can figure out any cheap operation for that railroad. It is built in self-defence to keep us out of the more expensive terminal. Mr. Stone : The fact remains, it is a New Haven property, pure and simple, is it not? Mr. Horn : Mr. Robbins, I think, can answer the ownership question better than I can. I only know it, by hearsay. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that the New Haven Company own nearly all these electric lines throughout New England? Mr. Horn: I don't know, I have heard it stated both ways or either way. Mr. Ptone: Well, don't the revenues of these electric lines go to the New Haven Company? 833 Mr. Horn: Of the trolleys? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Horn: They do. Mr. Robbins: What was the question? Mr. Horn: The net revenues of the trolley lines, do they go to the New Haven Company! Mr. Robbins : They do if they own all the stock. Mr. Horn: The stock ownership proportion, I understand Mr. Robbins to say. Mr.' Stone : The owners of the stock are the same, are they not? Mr. Horn: What is that question? Mr. Stone : The owners of the stock are the same, are they mot? Mr. Horn: I don't know. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that 60 per cent of the New Haven business is passenger business? Mr. Horn: In money? When you say 60 per cent — Mr. Stone: Service, I mean 60 per cent of your service is passenger service, is it not? Mr. Horn: If you mean the money taken in, is that your ■question? Mr. Stone: No. Mr. Horn: Then, what do you mean by service. Mr. Stone : The service of your road. Mr. Horn: I read those figures a little while back, Mr. 'Chairman. Last year, for the calendar year there were 14,000,- 000 passenger miles and I think I said a scant 9,000,000 freight; it is a scant 8,000,000. I misquoted it. 7,932,418 freight miles. Mr. Morrissey: How do they divide, as to earnings, gross •earnings? Mr. Horn: I had better speak from the annual report. My recollection is that there were $26,000,000 passenger and $30,- 000,000 freight. I can verify that in a minute if it is considered important. There was a time when the passenger was more than the freight in money. Now, it is the other way. But, we run nearly, that is in the heavy passenger months, we run two miles of passenger trains for one of freight, in the summer months. Tn December, the month that I took, there is not so much differ- -ence. 834 Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact, Mr. Horn, that on a great many of your passenger runs they only get the daily rate of $4.10, that is all they earn for 100 miles, on a great many of your pas- senger runs ? Mr. Horn: That is very fully covered in the black book, Mr. Stone. I think it is Table 19, for Boston suburban and New York suburban, and then the other divisions by divisions ; I think there is quite a nice summary of that. Have I quoted those tables correctly, Mr. Quick, 19, for the suburban and 18', for the other? Mr. Quick : They are all in there, yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Mr. Stone's question is, you have given illustra- tive cases where the engineers receive a large compensation. Now, he wants to know whether, or not, there are very many cases where they only receive the $4.10 rate. Are they only tha suburban passenger trains'? Mr. Horn : Oh, no, there are some runs — I have in my mind, and you will find them right here, every run. I have in mind one man who makes a run of 26 miles and gets $4.10, for it. Mr. Stone : How many hours is he doing it ? Mr. Horn : I think he is quite awhile doing it. He runs three or four minutes at a time, and then he has a rest. Mr. Stone: The fact remains you use* his time during thy day, do you not? Mr. Horn : We do ? Oh, no. Mr. Stone: You don't relieve him, do you? Mr. Horn : I think I can find that run in the book, or souk one will find it for me, if you are interested. Mr. Morrissey : Yes, here is your table. Mr. Stone : The point I want to bring out, Mr. Chairman, if the fact that he picked out all the big apples he had in cold storage and showed the high runs, and I wanted to know if he did not have quite as many, if not more, that were low ones. Mr. Horn: Mr. Chairman, I have purposely given nearly 500 — there are 500 trains in there, but there are something like 500 runs. Three or four hundred of them are week days, and Mr. Stone is at liberty to spend his money picking out the low ones in that book. Mr. Stone : "We will not only pick out the low ones bu(t we 835 will pick some of these high figures to pieces before we get through. Mr. Horn: If you have as much trouble picking them to pieces as I have, you will be going some. Mir. Stone : I probably will not have as much help as you have had, but we will probably get through them. I have not anything more, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman: Have you anything, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan : No. ("Witness excused.) Mr. Duncan: Mr. Stone asked Mr. Atterbury this morning for the average age of the engine men pensioned, on the Penn- sylvania Lines. Mr. Atterbury advises me that his office has worked it up and he advised that the average age of the 202 pen- sioned engineers is 72 years. Our next witness, if the Commission please, is Mr. Smith, of the New York Central. I think I will let him state his views to the Board without examining. 836 A. H. Smith was called as a witness and testified as follows : Mr. Smith : I am operating vice president of the New York Central Lines. Simply with a view of saving time, I have reduced to writ- ing, what I have to say, and with your permission I will read it, subject to any cross examination during the progress, or there- after. While comprehensive exhibits have already been submitted by Mr. Worthington, embracing information with respect to all of the railroad companies directly interested in this proceeding, and including each road of the New York Central System, still ib may not be amiss to present, as briefly as possible, a separate statement showing concretely, the situation which confronts the New York Central System. Before proceeding to a discussion of what appears to be the two fundamental questions at issue, namely ; first, the equity of the engineers' demands; and, second, the economic situation with reference to the ability of the companies to pay, and the impairment of the public service ; I wish to first dispose of a few of the mechanical and physical features mentioned in the official demands of the engineers. And, in that connection I have an exhibit. Unfortunately I am short, one. There are six there and one for Mr. Stone- having particular reference to the diameter of cylinders under the request of the engineers, as their basis of wages. (The statement and photograph attached was marked Eailroads' Exhibit No. 120, July 25, 1912.) With reference to the electric service' it is demanded that any change from steam to electricity, or other motive power, in any form at any point on the system, such power will be man- ned by engineers and paid according to the service for the ter- ritory affected. It would not seem necessary to make a determination on a purely hoypothetical question. We have no knowledge at this time what form of power might be substituted, or where it might be substituted, or what elements of complexity, or sim- plicity it might involve. It might be that the engineers should 837 receive more, or receive less, depending upon how the service was affected. Every installation should rest tvpon its own mer- its. Such installations, at the present time, are exceedingly small- consisting principally of terminal work, or short dis- tances surburban work, in congested, cities, and we see no im- mediate probability of any material extension of the service until more radical improvements and inventions have been made to reduce the cost of the installation to replace steam traffic. If any installation should occur, an agreement may be reached at the time, or an arbitration demanded if that be proper, when the time arrives. The demand is also made that where electric, or multiple unit trains enter upon steam tracks, formerly operated by steam, or where trackage rights are leased to holding compa- nies, they should be operated by engineers operating steam trains on said tracks. The matter has been so fully covered by preceding wit- nesses, that I think that is all we care to say about that at this time. Thus far, in all large electric installations to supplant steam, so far as I am informed a locomotive engineer has al- ways been given preference. Fourth: A thought in regard to penalty for men being kept away from home longer than 15 hours. It might appear, from the manner in which this grievance has been presented, that about every engineer on the railroad was a sufferer from this condition. Let us see. More than half the road mileage on the New York Central is made by passenger trains, all of which are scheduled, and the engine- man has as punctual movement as a passenger. A little less than half of the road movement is freight. Of the freight, 35 per cent, is fast freight- which are assigned runs and move under normal conditions, with nearly the same punctuality as passenger trains. 30 per cent, are local trains which are prac- tically all scheduled, and to a considerable extent are round trip runs where the crew has no lay-over except in its home terminal. This leaves about half of the freight operation to fall within the category which Mr. Stone calls the "chain gang," 838 the rounds, or the pool, meaning thereby, that the men operate first in, first out. The reason for this situation is that the so-called slow freight service, more than any other class of business, reflects the fluctuation in business, it being heavy ton- nage trains, which, it will be observed, are about one-sixth of the total train mileage. The pool, which is the number of men assigned to cover - the slow freight operation, as a whole, on a given division, is made no larger than the requirements of the service under normal conditions. When the business drops off, this pool can be reduced were it not for the fact that it would deprive some men of earning power. Consequently, lay-overs are longer and the men earn less money on account of fewer trips. This is more than remedied when business resumes nor- mal proportions, and at times when the business is above nor- may the men are departing as rapidly as they can get their rest, and earning correspondingly increased amounts. In other words, the rounds crews not being old enough in seniority to have secured regularly assigned runs, are running the extras, or slow freights and taking the business as it comes, earning sometimes more and sometimes less than the average, for the reasons above stated. Of course, the railroad company could reduce the number of crews on the ground of depression of business, and tnereby protect itself to some extent, against the possibility of such a penalty as Mr. Stone has asked, but the effect of this would be to remove some men from the payroll. The railroad companies certainly have no desire to inflict a hardship upon the men by keeping them away from home, but it seems unfair and a waste, to require the companies to send the men home with a light train under full pay, or to pay them full time, while occasional- ly waiting for the business to arrive. The company itself has no guarantee 1 of a continued business at intervals of 15 hours. The other features of the demands have already been so fully discussed or will be discussed by others, that I need not take your time further with them. The Chairman: Dr. Shaw says he wishes these statements of yours which you are skipping, to save time, might be put on the record, because they seem to be important. 839 Mr. Smith : We will be very glad to enlarge on this for the record. Some of this has been eliminated, because of the fact that it has been very thoroughly covered, and with the end in view of making the record no larger than necessary. Mr. Shaw : I thought since your statement was a connected statement, covering all these points, we would like to have it as a connected statement. Mr. Smith: I think you will find this is connected, excepf that we have expunged such things as have been previously ■covered. I now beg to call attention to the following : General Beasons why the Proposed Increase Should Not Be Granted : 1st: Because conditions have not changed since the last wage adjustment, so as to predicate a demand for an increase. No new condition's imposed since the wage adjustment of 1910, on which to predicate the demand for an increase and I »can vouch for the conditions as far as our lines are concerned. . Nearly all of the changes have been in favor of the engineers. In order to put this subject before you concisely, I must first of ail review the changes made at and following the last wage increase in 1910. On the first day of April, 1910, right in the midst of a controversy with the conductors and trainmen, which reached the acuteness of strike threats, a horizontal increase, was granted to nearly all employees of the New York Central of seven per cent. The issue with the conductors and trainmen was settled by an arbitration, which seemed to be the only way out of the difficulty without subjecting the whole region tribu- tary to our line, with which you gentlemen are familiar, to at least serious interruption of its business life. Following the award of the Arbitrators, an adjustment was reached with the engineers by which certain supplementary con- ditions, changes of rules, etc., were added to the horizontal seven per cent, which had the effect, measuring the payroll ob- tained under the former conditions by the payroll obtained under the new conditions, of increasing our payment about ten per «ent., for the same service. 840 Adjustments were agreed on with the men where no scale provision existed for a new type of locomotive. I mean by that, as we put the larger engine in service, au- tomatically the rate increases, by agreement with the men. For instance, that Mallet engine, the lower one, when that engine went into service, replacing the Consolidated engine at the top, the rate of pay to the enginemen was increased $1.00 per 10O miles, or from $4.85 to $5.85. This automatic feature of the wage schedule is quite ait important factor in giving more compensation to men from time- to time. Since 1900, we have demolished about 1,200 small lo- comotives. A large portion of these were of the Mogul and Consolidation type. We pay to-day $4.75 per 100 miles, for the- few remaining engines of this class, that are in service in local freights and miscellaneous service. It is no inconsiderable factor in judging the relative wage received by these men when . you appreciate that in addition to the horizontal increase in pay for running the same locomotive, which is retired to less im- . portan t and less exacting service and earns less money, as time goes on, there are each year more and more large locomotives taking higher rate, in addition to the horizontal increase, to which the men are advanced. It is obvious from the above history that the men have no reason to complain because of changed conditions. Second: Engineers already receive a relative higher com- pensation than other classes of railroad employes. I will file a brief exhibit showing the actual earning ca- pacity of the principle employes when performing their as- signed duties, including enginemen, conductors, trainmen, track- men, station employes and others, together with exhibits show- ing the actual payments to some employes including extra ser- vices performed. Passenger enginemen received more then some of the officers to whom -they report, such as Master Mechanics, Road Foremen, dispatchers, and Trainmasters. Mr. Morrissey: What would you infer by that, that the wages of the enginemen are too high, or the officers too low? Mr. Smith: You can take it either way. I leave that to you, Mr. Morrissey. I do mean this, that within the dollar that we have we are paying all we can afford, and if one has more 841 and another less it may be unfortunate and requires equalizing. They receive about three times as much as, a section fore- man, upon whose fidelity they, as well as every passenger, must rely for the safety of the road. The skill and vigilance of the man in- the cab to read signals or apply brakes avail little, if the section foreman has not seen to it that every rail fastening is properly secured and that the roadbed is intact. The engine- man is not so wholly vested with the security of the passengers in his train as might appear at first though. His function with reference to safety is an important one in observing the signals and controlling his train. In emergencies, he does what he can, but we have many employes upon whose faithfulness we and the enginemen must rely to see that the way and equipment is made safe and kept so, every hour of the twenty-four. Can we in fairness, deny the primary factors in the safety of road- bed and equipment that which we are asked to be- accorded to the enginemen, when you consider the disparity that already exists in their pay, and when you realize that these enginemen want added to their present liberal share of the wage fund, . an amount about 18 per cent. ? And, there is no proposal to .give the public more or better service for the increment, or in- creased efficiency to help meet the necessity for better and cheaper transportation. Moreover, the amount of the wage would be determined by the amount of time and effort expended, not by the increased effi- ciency and consequent increased earnings given by a superior engine. Take a wheel lathe, for illustration. In one instance, an old fashioned belt driven machine is laboriously operated under unfavorable conditions by a man who, competent enough him- self, is only able to turn out, say, three pairs of wheels in a day, and a fair wage rate must be fixed having regard to the conditions that permit him to earn what his services are worth. But, if you fix this wage as the price for turning a pair of wheels, it certainly should not follow that the same price should obtain where the most modern, high power, automatic tool, operated by another man with the same, or less effort, can multiply the output by ten in the same time. It is therefore, entirely a question of the amount of time and effort which any of us sell to those who employ us. • 842 Experience has shown that a wage increase granted to the highest paid employes cannot be denied to substantially all the rest. Not only does the history of 1910, 1907 and previous years confirm this statement, but we already have demands from the firemen exceeding those of the engineers, and have similar de- mands from other classes of employes. It would seem, therefore, that it is fair to assume that a percentage of increase must be conceded to many classes of rail- road employes, if the engineers are substantially increased, as a result of these proceedings. If then, the entire annual payroll of the New York Central is augmented by the same percentage demanded by the engineers we will then be required to pay for the same service now ren- dered under existing wage scales an additional annual sum, tak- ing 1911, as a basis, of about $6,600,000. Let me now consider the effect, from a financial standpoint, of the proposed increase on this railroad. In this connection I wish to say that we will later file an exhibit, stating fully the financial effect with reference to securi- ties, fixed charges, dividends, interest, and so forth. It will serve my immediate purpose to use simply the figures showing our present net results and how the*e will be affected by this increase and the probable collateral effect. In this connection the following factors should be borne in mind : That the New York Central Lines have been doing every- thing within their financial means to make expenditures which would result in operating economies. Stronger bridges have been built, in order that heavier locomotives might be operated ; grades have been reduced, to increase the trainload, and there- by, the efficiency of the locomotive; new locomotives and car shops have been built and equipped with the most modern ma- chinery known to the art; and the sources of supply, the cost and qualitv of material used, have been closely scrutinized and supervised. Notwithstanding this, practically every dollar saved has been absorbed by increases in wages, increases in taxes, increases in expenses from Safety Appliance Laws, and in ex- penses for improving the character of the service, without in- creasing the revenue. These facts have made it impossible to, in any way, reduce the ratio of expenses to earnings. 843 Second: That the New York Central Eailroad would find it impossible to grant an increase in any one year of 17 per cent, or any amount approaching that percentage. The following figures illustrate the disposition which has been made of the revenue of the company. In 1908, the gross revenue from rail operations was about $72,000,000. In 1911, $88,000,000, giving an increase during the four years, of about 6 per cent, per annum. These percentages are somewhat favorable, because 1908 was a low revenue year. The average is probably nearer 5 per cent per annum, if based upon 1907 revenue. From 1907, to date, increases have been made in employes' wages, which, for engineers, has involved a direct increase of about 20 per cent. In addition, to the direct increase, there has been an indirect increase in the actual earning power of the engineers due to the gradual replacement of smaller power by larger power, in connection with which they receive a larger c jm- pensation. Firemen have been increased about 22 per cent. ; conductors about 21 per cent. And, in that connection it shows the relative raise of the different classes, all about keeping the same level. These, and other similar increases since 1907, have involved an outlay for increase of wages of approximately $16,000,000. After having paid for material, supplies, etc., and the indis- pensable interests on bonds, notes, and other securities, labor has received practically the balance, as the surplus of the company has not been increased a dollar. There has been practically nothing added to the property in the way of reserve resources within four years. This so-called reserve is working capital, or profit and loss account, and in- volves hundreds of details of claims, adjustments, depreciations, and some cash. This surplus, or reserve, must be kept intact,, as it is as indispensable to the solvency of the company, as the payment of its bonds. It is a part of the necessary working machinery of the company similar to that of any other business enterprise. When the reserve is depleted, it can be replenished only by the reduction of wages, or by the reduction of dividends. The latter would impair the credit of the company aud make ill 844 impossible to secure the additional money constantly required to make the improvements which the needs of the service and of the public require. It will be observed, that while the gross revenue is increas- ing only at the rate of about 5 per cent., per annum, that a de- mand is now made for an increase of 17 per cent., per annum, or $608,631, in wages of enginemen, alone. If the same rates of increase were applied to the otLer em- ployes who are paid lower wages, and many of whom are now demanding even a greater increase in wages, the aggregate in- crease, for all classes of labor would be $6,600,000 pet- annum. As the annual dividends of the company are only about $11,136,000, on a 5 per cent, basis, and as the surplus must be maintained for working purposes, this demand for an increase is equivalent to requesting the company to reduce its dividends from 5 per cent, to slightly less than 2 l /o per cent, per annum. Again, the conditions in 1912, are worse from a railroad standpoint, on the basis of earnings than they were in 1911, when some surplus was earned. The net results for 1912, to date, are over a million dollars behind last year, due, first, to a winter of unusual severity, which introduced very heavy operating ex- penditures ; and, second, to a suspension of the coal mines, which meant a large loss in gross revenue ; together with other causes, which are introducing additional expenditures without producing additional revenue. The company has no power, or means to increase, its revenue to meet such exactions as the proposed increase. Traffic, which is the source of revenue, is dependent entirely upon the growtli of commerce. This growth of commerce is more or less unifom: through a period of years. The revenue derived from the hand- ling of traffic is at a rigid rate and apparently immovable, at the present time. The tendency of the decisions of the Interstate Commerce Commission has been to deny increases in rates. In addition to this, very considerable outlays have been made in compliance with various State and Federal regulatory statutes. If, now, the exactions of labor, settled in arbitration, make another large de- duction from earnings, present securities will become seriously impaired and additional funds unavailable, and the railroads unable to adequately serve the public. 845 There has not been, in many years, so much money needed for railroad betterments as today, nor a time when railroad securities were less attractive, on account of the conditions I have just recited. This money which is needed must now also come from two sources. Under the National Law, as defined by the Interstate Commerce Classification, much of it must be obtained from the net revenues of the company and the balance by capitalization. In revising grades in order to increase the earning capacity of the road, the value of the old grade which is abandoned, or modified must first be paid for, out of current income, and se» curities may be issued for the extra capital investment. This is true whether the revision of grade, or alignment would more than effect economies which would make such a course unneces- sary. The same rule applies to the obsolescence of all prop- erty of every description. The law is a proper one, as it seeks to protect the integrity of the securities which are outstanding. The difficulty, however, which now confronts the railroad com- pany, in this respect, is that the law and the need for the im- provement are concurrent or simultaneous, for the era of build- ing railroads has passed. The railroads were originally built through sparsely set- tled communities, with more or less heavy grades and severe alignment, across highways and streets at grade, with the great- est cooperation and solicitation upon the part of the public in order to obtain a railroad at all. The country highway has be- come a city street, the village has become a metropolis. The stations, both freight and passenger, have become small and in- adequate and hemmed in on all sides by structures of great value. The volume of traffic moving requires easier grades and better alignment, and better physical conditions throughout. In other words, it is now an era, not of building, or capitalization for building, but of reconstruction and revision of the existing plant to meet a second stage in the growth of our commerce which the railroad has produced. These things must be done to handle the traffic with any degree of dispatch. Many of them must be paid for out of operating expenses; many of them, such as grade crossing elimination, involving millions of dollars, may be capitalized in part; but there is, in such cases 846 generally, no additional revenue derived which Avill pay the carrying charges. In this connection, I would like to call attention to the fact that for the past ten years the necessaiy budgets for general improvements and additions to the equipment have averaged about $20,000,000 to $30,000,000 per annum. The budget for the current year for improvements and for additional equip- ment amounts to approximately $30,000,000. Taking the taxes and interest into account this means an additional annual charge of not less than $1,500,000 upon the available income. A considerable share of this budget probably represents productive investments that will take care of them- selves by economies and increased business, provided these economies are not dissipated in wage increases. We know a considerable amount of the budget is not self-sustaining and the indications for future years are that the amount of undertak- ings of the present year will have to be repeated many years to come in order to take care of the growing demands of the com- mercial life and population tributary to our lines. It should also be stated that these budgets are subject to the approval of the Public Service Commission, of the State of New York, and have been for years past, and this Commission furthermore, has power to a large extent to influence and re- quire improvements to be made in railroad transportation fa- cilities and equipment. We have so far been considering the effect of the proposed increases on the railroads with respect only to the New York Central proper. Permit me now, to summarize briefly all the railroads em- braced in the so-called New, York Central Lines, including the New York Central, the Boston & Albany, the Lake Shore, the Michigan Central, the Big Four, the P. & L. E., and the numer- ous minor leases and operated lines. We have the following financial situation: In 1908, tire gross railroad revenues were about $207,000,- 000. In 1911, about $260,500,000, showing an increase during that period of about 25.8 per cent., or an average of about 6 per «ent. per annum. Bearing in mind, again, the depressed business conditions 847 of 1908 the average increase for the lines is about 5 per cent, per annum, in gross revenue. During that time increases in wages have been made and the working conditions upon all of the lines improved sub- stantially, in the same ratio which prevailed upon the New York Central, and nothing has transpired since the last adjust- ment to warrant any increases, in our opinion, in the wage- scales upon the lines. During the last year, which was one favorable for rail- road operation, the average dividend paid upon all outstanding- stock of all the lines was 5.3 per cent. Out of a total of $490,000,000, of such stock, an average of 6.9 per cent, was paid upon $375,000,000 and nothing was paid upon $115,000,000. The above dividends include the internal corporate divi- dends from one company to another, but not the final net divi- dends to the public. The net dividends would be less. An ex- hibit will be filed eliminating these internal ramifications and showing the net results as concisely as possible. From 1907 to 1911, a period of four years, out of a gross operating revenue of about one billion dollars, it has been pos- sible, even with the closest economy, to accumulate an addi- tional surplus of only $16,400,000, or the small amount of about 1.6 per cent, for the four years, or at the rate of about $4,000,- 000 per annum. The request made by the engineers of the New York Cen- tral Lines, is for an increase of about 18 per cent, or $1,800,000 per annum, or nearly one-half of the surplus which the entire lines have been able to accumulate per annum. As the locomotive engineers receive substantially, only about 8 to 10 per cent, of the wages paid all employes, if similar increases were made to other employes who, in part, have al- ready filed their demands and are awaiting the result of this action, the aggregate increase for the lines would be about $17,- 000,000 per annum, or substantially sufficient in one year to ab- sorb tbie accumulated surplus of all the lines for four years The dividends paid by all the lines are substantially $26,- 000,000 per annum, from which deduct $17,000,000, leaving for dividends only about $9,000,000, which is approximately 2 per cent, per annum for all the New York Central Lines. Such a 848 result, of course, would be disastrous to the roads and to the- public service. On the New York Central Lines alone, it is conservatively estimated, controlled by the normal growth of business, that the investments for the next ten years will aggregate fifty million dollars per annum, if we keep pace. Many of these items are matters of such public importance that they are well known by practically every member of this Board. For instance, the freight terminals in the streets on the west side of New York. City must be modernized and the grade crossings eliminated, in- volving an investment of probably forty-five . million dollars. New terminals are needed at Utica, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleve- land, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Detroit; four tracks on the Hud- son Division of the New York Central extensions of them, with double tracks on many of its side lines. Double tracks and* grade revisions on many parts of the Big Four, Lake Shore and Michigan Central systems; elimination of grade crossings in Syracuse, Rochester, Buffalo, Cleveland, Dunkirk and many highways throughout the Central Lines. These are all improvements for the public good, and the money for the improvement must be furnished by the public in pari through our revenues and in part by issuing additional capital, the interest on which must be earned by the property. In conclusion, I wish to say that in thus presenting the rail- road's side of the case, I am not unmindful of the locomotive engineers. As a class they have an important duty, and most of them perform it well. They should be well compensated for this work and we believe the most of them are. It is not a question of denying them some adjustment at individual places where it may be merited, but a question of forcing every em- ployer to adopt a uniform wage, regardless of his earning ca- pacity, or ability to pay, and without regard to the public needs. It is also a question of singling out some one group of em- ployes, constituting 4 per cent, of the whole, and giving them an unreasonable increase of some 17 or 18 per cent., to the ex- haustion of the treasury, and without regard to the wages, or conditions of service of the 96 per cent, not yet considered. It is a question which must be considered in its entirety, with ref- erence to all of the men, with reference to relative wages and' relative services, and with reference to the revenues of the com- 849 pany, and with referenice to the best interests of the public as a whole. Mv. Stone : You stated, Mr. Smith, in order to avoid holding crews away from home terminals, that this might be overcome by the reduction of crews. In what way would a reduction of crews avoid holding crews away from home terminals? Mr. Smith : If you had less crews in the rounds, Mr. Stone, you would be able to call them more frequently, as the freight materialized ? Mr. Stone : Well, you only use enough crews to handle the traffic, anyway, do- you not ? Mr. Smith : Oh, no. In my experience, a great many times the men have asked me to permit the crews to remain, and di- vide what they termed the "loaf of bread" when business was quiet. The men themselves, out of human reasons, say "Keep the pool on." Mr. Stone: They are willing to "divide the loaf?" Mr. Smith: Yes. Mr. Stone: In what way would this assist the road finan- cially; you only pay for the service performed? Mr. Smith: It is your penalty that you want to put on us that I was referring to. Mr. Stone: Suppose a man was left at his home terminal more, would the penalty be paid on that? Mr. Smith: No,. not if he was home. As I understood your rule, you do not say anything when he is home. Mr. Stone : You say the system of rating by size of cylinders is wrong. How would you rate the pay of engineers? Mr. Smith : I would rate them the way we always have, Mr. Stone, taking the engine, its size, what it can draw, as tested out by the dynamometer car, our knowledge of, and the situation of barter and trade and agreeing with Watson and reasoning with them on what is a fair rate, and you can trust them to look out for themselves; they always have. Mr. Stone : Is that the way you arrived at the rate for the Mallet engine, when. she came? Mr. Smith : The rate on the Mallet engine was fixed because I think you, or some of your assistants, agreed upon a rate with the western lines, of one dollar per hundred miles above the Consolidated engine, and we gave them a dollar down here. 850 Mr. Stone: Isn't it the fact that it is the lowest rate in the counts-) ' Mr. Smith: I don't know. I think in your proposition you place the Mallet rate on the engine, regardless of the size of the Mallet. We haven't got the largest Mallet in the country. I believe our Mallet is perhaps of the smallest type. Take the Delaware & Hudson, for instance, they have a very much larger Mallet than we, and the Santa Fe, and such other lines. Mr. Stone: They make a differential m the West with Mal- lets of 275,000 pounds on drivers. Yours weigh 300,000 pounds on drivers, so you would come in the high class. Mr. Smith : I am glad we are high in something. Mr. Stone : You are not high in the rate. It is the lowest Mallet rate in the country, unless it is the one put in on the Maine Central since this was put in. Mr. Smith : We pay $5.85 a hundred, I think. Mr. Stone : The Delaware & Hudson, at that time, was pay- ing $6.50 for pusher rate in your same territory, were they not? Mr. Smith: I could not tell you. I think they pay a little more, and they have a larger engine. I do not recognize, Mr. Stone, that pusher service and road service is similar. I think those boys have pretty good runs on those Mallet engines; that is, I think they like them pretty well. Mr. Stone : You think they like the change, with an increase of tonnage of train of 44 per cent., and a wage increase of 20 per cent.? Mr. Smith: I really think they do. That Mallet engine, on the single track road, the interference has been reduced so materially that it is made more comfortable work for them in getting over the road, on account of the lesser interference. Mr. Stone : Do you mean to say the hours are shorter now than they were before? Mr. Smith : I could not tell you, in detail, as to that, because I haven't looked into it. I should think they would be less, because the interference is much less. Mr. Stone : On your Class Gr Consolidated engines, how much have you increased the tonnage since" you began to change them into superheaters ? Mr. Smith: I coulrl not tell you that offhand. Quite con- 851 siderable. If we had not increased the tonnage, I don't know what would have become of us, if we had not earned more money, after 1910, after Mr. Morfissey finished with me. Mr. Stone: I thought -the engineers got all the money. Mr. Smith: No, Mr. Morrissey handed me a few in 1910. Air. Stone: What was the increase obtained by Mr. Morris- sey for the trainmen and conductors in 1910? Mr. Smith: I cannot recall the figures. I have had a good many things to think of since that time, and I do not remember. Mr. Morrissey : I judge from your statement that they must have been appalling. Mr. Smith: They were considerable. Mr. Stone : I have seen it stated that it was somewhere around nine millions. Mr. Smith: For the conductors. Mr. Stone: Trainmen on the New York Central Lines, all lines. Mr. Smith: I think it was not as much as that. I am really only guessing, so I am wasting time, probably. Mr. Stone: You stated that the wages of engineers are higher than those they report to, isn't that common on most of the roads'? Mr. Smith : I cannot tell as to the others. Mr. Stone: Isn't there practically a standard rate for the minor officials on the different roads, such as road foremen, roundhouse foremen, master mechanics? Mr. Smith : I think they will quite generally measure up, one with another, perhaps, under similar conditions. They vary on different roads. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact you have practically doubled the number of minor officials on each division in the last five years? Mr. Smith: No, sir. Mr. Morrissey: Doesn't that obtain to a considerable de- gree in the train and yard service, comparing the wages of pas- senger conductors, with trainmasters and of yard foremen, or yard conductors, with yardmasters, or assistant yardmasters? Mr. Smith: I think not, Mr. Morrissey. The yardmaster is promoted from yard conductor, and if you do. not pay the 852 yardmaster more than the conductor, lie will come around and say, "I will take my engine and go back," and then we haven't got a yardmaster ; we have got to hunt up someone else, and he perhaps, is familiar and experienced, and we need him, and, therefore, he gets more than the conductor, as a general propo- sition. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the engineer getting three times as much as the section foreman, upon whose loyalty to his duty> you depend. What does the section foreman get! Mr. Smith: The section foreman gets from $60 to $62, a month; sometimes $65, in yards where he has a good many switches — sometimes, as low as $55. Mr. Stone: Isn't it also true that every operating official, even including yourself, has to depend on the loyalty of the section foreman, as well as the engineer? Mr. Smith: Surely, yes. I said that. I did not say that with any view to discrediting the engineer. Mr. Stone: The fact remains that the engineer is not the only high salaried man that has to depend on the section fore- man? Mr. Smith : Not at all. I merely mentioned that, relatively, because I think that we have got to take into consideration the entire situation, in regard to all of these men, the thousands of them that are concerned in the operation of these railroads, and we must recognize that each and every one has a duty and it must be considered. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the machinist who handles an im- proved wheel lathe and bores or drills more holes in a day than he used to. Mr. Smith: I did. Mr. Stone: Does this machinist come down thirty minutes before time to go to work' in order to get ready to do a good day's work? Mr. Smith: No, the environments of his employment are whatever they may be ; he has to get up an hour before he has to go to work, if he lives far enough; ajway from the shop, you know. Mr. Stone : He gets time and a half for overtime, too, does he not? 853 Mr. Smith : I am not so certain, but perhaps he does. Mr. Stone: And, on Sundays, when he works? Mr. Smith: We never use him Sundays, that I know of; and I think that time and a half for overtime is a question; I am not certain. I will have to look it up, if you want to know positively. Mr. Stone: These heavy locomotives and grade reductions and these heavier trains that you speak of that have been econ- omies necessary for economical operation, have they lightened the burdens of the engineer any? Mr. Smith: No, it has not lightened them. Mr. Stone: Has it not increased his burdens? Mr. Smith: Well, that is a question 1 Mr. Stone; that is a question, how much more effort is required, and how much more — take for instance, that Mikado engine that you have over there, and the Consolidation engine. Now, the Mikado engine will do more work and haul a larger trainload than a Consoli- dated engine, and the engineer with that engine has another pair of wheels to oil, those small wheels under the firebox. Now, to that extent, yes. Mr. Stone : He has a larger train to keep together, too, has he not? Mr. Smith: He has a larger train to keep together; that is, he has to use more skill in handling a large train' but we pay him more for running the larger engine, and that compen- sates for the additional skill. Mr. Stone: How much more? Mr. Smith: How much more for the large engine? Well, a dollar more on the Mallet, and some of them I guess fifteen cents a hundred miles, or twenty cents, or something like that. I have the schedule here and — Mr. Stone: The Mikado engines pulls about 30 per cent, more than your Consolidation? Mr. Smith: I think she does even better than that. Mr. Stone : And, he gets I think ten cents more. Mr. Smith: Well, on the Mallet? Mr. Stone : The Mikado gets ten cents more than the Con- solidation. Mr. Smith : We have not agreed with you on the rate on the 854 Mikado, because that engine has come into service while you were negotiating Mr. Stone: The same rate. Mr. Smith: Well, it stopped all our negotiations with the- committee. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the expenditures you make. Your- new 42nd Street terminal is expected to prove a good paying; investment, is it not? Mr. Smith : Well, we expect it is going to have some return on the investment; whether it is a good paying investment, or not, will depend. I can tell you better later on. Mr. Morrissey: Is it not going to be hampered seriously by brother Horn's arrangements to divert the traffic? Mr. Smith : Well, I am not at all concerned about that. He is building up into Westchester to take away some of my busi- ness up there. Mr. Stone: The reason I ask the question, I see published in the papers the annual report, and what a rosy view they take,, that they were going to build ten story blocks overhead, cleap- over your right of way. Mr. Smith: Well, as the fellow says, we have hopes and expectations. That was a matter, the elimination of those grade- crossings in the City of New York, and the improvement that was instituted by law, the elimination of steam from the tunnel, that expenditure and all that goes with it, is incident very largely to that. It, of course, is enlarged, because it would be folly not to make it large enough, while you were rebuilding it, and from the best foresight that we possessed, we built it large- enough, I hope, now to remain there some years, to take care of" the business. Mr. Stone : I should like to have it appear in the record, Mr- Chairman, that at the time we entered our negotiations, the New- York Central was paying the lowest rate for a Mallet engine of any railroad on the North American continent, in freight ser- vice. Mr. Smith: I would also like to enter in the record that the New York Central Railroad is probably a greater user and the only line in this eastern territory, if I am not mistaken, that has any material number. I think we have twenty-five, or twenty-six of these Mallet engines. 855 Mr. Stone: 1 think Mr. Willard will go you better than that with those he has ordered. Mr. Smith: Well, what he has ordered — [ am talking about what is, you know; not what is to be, on that. Mr. Willard has not got his engines. I am saying this just to make the record complete, that is all. The Chairman: The stenographer took down both state- ments. Mr. Stone : If my figures are correct, the Baltimore & Ohio has 26 in service at the time, I believe. Mr. Smith : Mr. Willard was more liberal than we. I sup- pose Mr. Willard has those engines up on those mountains, and probably, as the conditions and the nature of the operation is different from ours, all of which emphasizes what I have said, that the standardization question is not very well justified. Mr. Stone: The fact remains, Mr. Chairman, that the Mal- let, on the Baltimore & Ohio, will not pull nearly so much ton- nage, as the Mallet on the New York Central. Mr. Smith : Probably on a heavier grade. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the increase in capitalization of the different roads. How much has the New York Central in- creased its funded debt in the last year, in a general way? Mr. Smith : I will have to file that financial statement with you, Mr. Stone. I would not undertake to get it into my mind. Or Mr. Harris, who is here, perhaps may have it or, if not, he can make a statement of the entire financial situation. Mr. Stone : You spoke of the number of men and the money that would have to be expended in the coming years, and recited numerous things that would have to be done to keep up with the improvements. If the engineers were to wait until all those were accomplished, when would we get the increase? Mr. Smith: I do not believe that question is just what T said. I do not say that all of those things had to be done in the coming year. Mr. Stone : In the coming years I said— I meant plural. Mr. Smith: Well, it all depends, Mr. Stone, on what we can earn. I have not yet been able to decipher how to pay out some- ihing that I did not have, and that is where the matter rests. We have not got the money. Mr. Stone: How do you do it on a number of lines? Take 85(i for instance, the Lake Erie & "Western, a New York Central line over which you have control, which never has earned operating expenses, yet you pay the standard wage to conductors and trainmen, do you not! Mr. Smith: I think they do. But there is a limit, you know, and we have got over about where that spells a limit. You can- not go on after a railroad does not earn anything for its inves- tors; and now if we go and place upon it another load, we will- absolutely sink it out of sight. We cannot pay anything, and it, will have to go into the hands of a receiver. Mr. Stone: That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Morrissey: What is the relation of the Dunkirk, Alle- gheny Valley & Pittsburgh, to the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern ? Mr. Smith: The Lake Shore & Michigan Southern operates tbe D. A. V. & P. Railroad for the New York Central road, who own it. They do that, Mr. Morrissey, because it is more convenient for them to operate it than for us. Mr. Morrissey : Is there any reason why the men on the Dun- kirk, Allegheny Valley & Pittsburgh should receive less rates than the men on the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern, which road operates it, or which is its owner ? Mr. Smith: Oh, yes; the D. A. V. & P. Railroad never has — I think it was conceived in error probably, and it never has paid; it is a drag; it is" an anchor. Mr. Judson: What road is that?' Mr. Smith : The D. A. V. & P., from Titusville, to Dunkirk, New York. Mr. Morrissey : Is not that true of many branch lines if they are judged wholly by their own operations ? Mr. Smith: Well, judge this railroad by its own operations, or collectively, Mr. Morrissey, and you have the same result. If that railroad was manufacturing transportation, if it was not a public utility, and could, be closed up, you know, the windows would have been boarded up a long, long time ago. Mr. Morrissey: Has the Dayton and Union any relation to the Big Four? Mr. Smith : I do not knoWj sir. I am so new out on the Big Four, that I am not familiar with that Dayton Union situation. I think we have some relation, perhaps, but I am not certain. 857 Mr. Stone : The C. H. & D. and Big Four operate it jointly, — operate it year about jointly ? Mr. Morrissey: What is the relation of the Lake Erie, Alli- ance and Wheeling to the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern. Mr. Smith: The Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling has beon a separate property. I think tbe Lake Shore own a consider- able portion of its stock probably; I think it was obtained — I am not very sure of it. 1 th.nk it was obtained on account of the coal adjacent to it, and to protect the Lake Shore in its coal supply for fuel, and so forth. Mr. Morrissey: Does not it deliver a great deal of traffic to the Lake Shore? Mr. Smith: Not a great deal; quite some. Mr. Morrissey: That is all. Mr. Van Hise : Mr. Chairman, a general chart has been Tianded in, and I was asked if there was anything further de- sired in relation to it. It seems very complete, but 1 had in mind to ask before Mr. Morrissey started to ask his questions the inter-relation of these various properties. We have been informed this afternoon that the New Yoik Central Company owns a number of lines. Now, we should like to know the re- lations of all the lines. Mr. Duncan: We will furnish that. Mr. Van Hise : And specially with reference to the smaller roads, if they are controlled by any one of the larger companies. Mr. Duncan: I think we can furnish that to you. It may take us a day or so to get it for you, Mr. Van Hise, but we will get it. Mr. Van Hise : Very well. Mr. Duncan : Mr. Harris calls my attention to the fact that it will all be found in. a report to the Interstate Commerce Com- mission, showing the inter-relation between these various rail- roads. Mr. Van Hise : Well, that reference may be adequate then. Mr. Duncan: If you prefer to have us get it up in shape for this case, we will. Mr. Van Hise: No, if you will give us the volume and place where we can find that, it will be adequate. We do not wish to put an unnecessary burden on vcu. 858 Mr. Stone : Before adjourning, I would like to ask Mr. Horn for a correction on one run of his, — this run 21, on the Western Division. That is a two-man run, and the amount of money named is split between two men. Mr. Horn : It so states, Mr. Stone, whether it is one, or two men, and Mr. Cadle called my attention to the fact it was not clear, and we added one man, or two men, to- the statement, and .asked the stenographer in his copy of the notes to indicate it. It makes it a little clearer. I happened to name one-man runs, that is, the amount I named was all for one man; but I think when it comes out in the report it will be clearer perhaps than that memorandum. The Chairman : Gentlemen, I think we will now adjourn the session until ten o'clock to-morrow morning. (Whereupon, at 4.50 o 'clock P. M., the hearing in the above matter was adjourned to to-morrow, July 26, 1912, at 10 o'clock A. M.) 859 Oriental Hotel, Manhattan Beach, N. Y., Friday, July 26, 1912. 10 :00 A. M. The Chairman : Mr. Duncan, are you ready ? Mr. Duncan : Mr. Worthington, at a previous session, under- took to summarize the different rates of pay that are shown on the exhibits 100, to 105, in connection with the western railroads and southeastern railroads. I understand that some member of the Commission suggested that the same thing be done with ref- erence to the rates paid- and prevailing in the territory involved in this controversy. We have had prepared a similar summary covering Exhibits 9, to 12, inclusive, showing the various rates of pay of locomotive engineers in passenger and other service, in this territory, and I presume, it will be unnecessary to read it off, and I will merely hand it to the reporter to be incorporated in the record. It shows the maximum and minimum rates of pay on all engines, for all classes. I have a few extra copies here ihat I may hand to the Board and to Mr. Stone. EASTEBN TEBBITOBY. 52 Boads Compiled. rate is for consolidation Passengei t: Maximum. 1 pays $4.70 and $4.10 ($4.70 engines). ■3 ' ' $4.25 1 ' ' $4.20 1 < ' $4.18 1 ' ' $4.15 1 ' ' $4.10 1 ' ' $4.05 2 ' 1 $4.00 1 ' 1 $3.95 1 ' ' $3.90 1 ' ' $3.65 14 860 Minimum. 1 pays $4.12 6 ' ' $4.00 2 ' ' $3.90 1 ' ' $3.80 2 ' ' $3.60 1 « ' $3.45 1 ' < $3.30 14 'All eng' ',nes. 1 pa ys $4.30 1 ' < $4.25 1 ' ' $4.20 8 ' ' $4.15 2 ' 1 $4.10 1 ' ' $4.05 2 ' ' $4.00 2 ' ' $3.95 3 ' ' $3.90 1 ' ' $3.80 2 ' ' $3.75 3 ' ' $3.65 1 ' ' $3.40 and $3.20 — Territory governs rate 1 ' ' $3.33 1 ' ' $3.30 30 Exhibit 10. Through Freight : Mallet Engines (various sizes) 1 pays $6.50 1 " $5.85 1 " $5.50 861 Maximum 1 pays $5.35 1 ' $5.15 2 ' ' $5.00 1 ' ' $4.95 7 ' ' $4.85 1 ' ' $4.80 9 " $4.75 2 < ' $4.70 5 ' ' $4.65 1 ' ' $4.60 2 " $4.50 1 " $4.20 33 Minimum. 1 pays $5.00 5 ' < $4.75 2 ' ' $4.65 2 ' < '$4.60 1 ' ' $4.55 9 ' < $4.50 2 ' 1 $4.45 2 ' ' $4.40 1 ' ' $4.35 1 ' < $4.30 4 ' < $4.25 2 ' ' $4.10 1 ' < $3.95 (Engines other than Mallet) (Used to haul ore a distance of 16 miles.) 33 862 All engines: 4 pay $4.85 2 ' ' $4.75 4 ' ' $4.70 1 ' ' $4.65 1 < < $4.60 1 ' ' $4.30 1 ' ' $4.20 1 < < $4.15 1 ' < $4.00 16 Exhibit 10A Maximum. 1 pays $5.45 2 < ' $5.00 1 ' ' $4.90 7 ' ' $4.85 1 < ' $4.80 2 ' ' $4.70 2 < < $4.65 16 Mmimit m. 1 pa ys $5.35 3 ' < $4.75 3 ' ' ■ $4.70 1 ' ' $4.65 1 ' ' $4.60 1 ' ' $4.55 2 ' < $4.50 1 ' ' $4.45 1 ' ' $4.30 1 ' < $4.20 16 863 All Eng ines: 1 pays $5.00 and $4.30 (Territory governs rate) 1 ' ' $5.00 and $4.20 " " " 2 ' ' $4.90 5 ' < $4.85 1 ' ' $4.85 and $4.65 1 ' < $4.80 5 < ' $4.75 1 ' ' $4.75 and $4.65 (distance of run governs.) 1 ' ' $4.65 1 ' ' $4.65 and $4.40 (Territory governs rate.) 1 < ' $4.60 3 ' ' $4.50 1 ' < $4.50 and $4.10 1 ' ' $4.30 1 ' ' $4.20 1 ' ' $4.15 1 < ' $4.00 28 Exhibit 10B SwiTCHIN 3: (10 Hours service) — Local r ards : 2 pays $4.50 1 < ' $4.48 and $4.35 (Territory governs.) 1 < ' $4.35 1 ' ' $4.25 1 ' ' $4.20 1 < ' $4.20 12 hour day 2 ' < $4.15 9 < ' $4.10 1 ' ' $4.05 1 ' ' $4.05 and $3.80 (Large and small engine rates.) 6 < < $4.00 1 ' ' $3.90 1 ' < $3.85 1 ' < $3.70 29 864 Small Yards: 1 1 1 1 7 1 3 2 1 1 2 2 2 2 1 1 29 pays $4.20 and $4.10 (Territory governs.) $4.10 $4.05 $4.05 $4.00 $3.95 $3.90 $3.85 $3.85 $3.80 $3.70 $3.60 $3.50 $3.45 $3.40 $3.25 and $3.90 and $3.60 (large and small engine rates.) 12 hour day. All Yards: 1 pays $4.70 and $4.00 (large and small engine rates) 1 " $4.25 and $4.10 " " 1 " $4.11 4 " $4.10 1 " $4.07 9 " $4.00 1 " $3.85 1 " $3.55 1 " $3.50 1 " $3.00 21 865 Exhibit II Pusher and Helper (per day) : Mallet. 1 pays $6.50 1 " $6.00 1 " $6.00 and $5.40 (size of engine governs) 1 " $5.25 Maximum (engines other than Mallet). 1 pays $4.95 6 ' ' $4.85 1 ' ' $4.80 2 ' ' $4.65 4 < ' $4.50 1 ' ' $4.45 1 ' ' $4.00 Minimu TO. 1 pa ys $4.85 4 ' < $4.75 1 ' < $4.65 3 ' ' $4.50 2 ' ' $4.30 2 ' ( $4.25 1 ' < $4.20 1 ' ' $4.10 1 < ' $3.85 and $4.30 (territory governs). and $4.05 (Territory governs). 16 866 11 Eng ines : 1 pays $5.00 1 ' ' $4.85 1 < ' $4.70 2 < ' $4.60 1 ' ' $4.50 and $4.05 (territory governs) 1 < ' $4.40 1 ' < $4.35 1 ' < $4.20 1 < ' $4.15 10 Exhibit No. 12 Work Train Service (per day) : Maximum. 1 pays $4.85 1 " $4.80 3 " $4.70 1 " $4.65 2 " $4.50 1 ' ' $4.25 1 " $4.20 10 Minimum. 1 pays $4.65 1 " $4.50 3 " $4.30 2 " $4.25 1 " $4.10 1 " $4.00 1 " $3.95 10 867 All Engines: 3 pays $5.00 2 ' ' $4.85 1 ' ' $4.80 2 ' ' $4.75 2 ' ' $4.65 6 < ' $4.60 6 ' ' $4.50 1 ' ' $4.50 and $4.25 2 ' ' $4.40 1 ' ' $4.40 and $4.00 1 < ' $4.35 1 ' ' $4.30 2 ' < $4.25 1 ' ' $4.20 3 ' < $4.15 5 ' ' $4.00 1 ' ' $3.80 1 ' ' $3.75 (territory governs) 41 Exhibit 12. Mine Service (per day) : Mallet Engines. l pays $6.50 Maximum (engines other than Mallet). 1 pays $5.35 1 " $4.85 1 " $4.80 3 " $4.65 1 " $4.50 868 Minimum. 1 pays $5.00 1 " $4.60 3 " $4.50 1 " $4.30 1 " $4.25 All Engines. 1 pays $4.40 2 " $4.25 1 " $4.15 1 " $3.75 Overtime Rates : Passenger 26 pay pro rata 9 " 45 cents per hour, 5 " 42 " " " 11 others vary 36 cts to 50 cts. per hour, 51 Through Freight 40 pay pro rata 3 pay 46 cents per hour, 8 others vary from 36 cts. to 49 cts. per hour, 51 Local, and Way Freight 39 pay pro rata, 5 " 46 cents per hour, 4 u 4Q a a u 6 others vary from 36 to 47% per hour, 54 3 roads scored twice account more than one overtime rate, 869 Switching Pro rata rates, Helper and Pusher 25 pay pro rata, 1 " 60 cents per hour, 4 others vary from 37 to 47 cts. per hour, 30 Work Train Service 4A pay pro rata, 7 others vary from 34 cts. to 47 cts. per hour, 51 Exhibit 82 Final Terminal Delay: 5 pay after 1 hour's detention 6 " " 45 mins. 1 " " 35 " " 5 " " 30 " < i Exhibit 84 Held other than Home Terminal: While this exhibit includes twenty-five roads, the condi- tions calling for the payment of time under this heading are so varied that a summary would be of no value. Fur- thermore, few of these 25 roads pay for time held at other than home terminal under the conditions outlined in the, petition ; they being shown principally for comparative pur- poses. 870 Exhibit 85 Initial, Terminal, Delay: 1 pays after 2 hours, 1 " "1 " Exhibit 93 Time Begins and Ends: Time begins as follows: 6 at time called to leave, 14 when required to report for duty 8 30 mins. prior to ordered or scheduled departure from engine house, 1 15 mins. prior to ordered or scheduled departure from engine house, 1 40 mins. prior to leaving time of train. 18 30 mins. before scheduled or marked leaving time of train, 2 45 mins. before scheduled or marked leaving time of train, 1 1 hour before leaving time. 51 Time Ends : The universal practice is when relieved from duty. 871 Mr. Duncan: Another matter, if the Board pleases — Mr. Atterbury, in testifying the other day, constantly referred to some statements contained in a blue print copy which was handed you. I found it very difficult myself to read the blue print, and it appears to me it might be well to simply have it printed in the record. I have a copy here, and if the Board will permit me, I will offer it to the reporter' so that it may be printed in its entirety. The Chairman: That is very good. Mr. Judson: That takes the place of the blue prints? Mr. Duncan: Yes, and it might be headed: "Statement of Mr. Atterbury, Vice-President of the Pennsylvania Rail- road." (The statement referred to is printed with the Exhibits as Railroad Exhibit 120-A.) Mr. Stone: Do I understand that all those diagrams and everything else, will be printed? Mr. Duncan: I think there are only two diagrams. Mr. Morrissey : How are you going to priut diagrams with- out making a plate? Mr. Duncan: Frankly, I don't know, except I understand that they have a photographic process, that they can take it right off. There are but two pages of diagrams, I think. The expense incident to that I think will be very slight, compared with the value of the statement in its entirety, to the Board. The Chairman: That is acceptable to you, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : I am not going to offer any special kick on that ; they can print all the exhibits, so far as I am concerned. Mr. Duncan: We will furnish you with extra copies of our exhibits, to make up for that- Mr. Stone. My recollection is that some members of the Board yester- day expressed a desire to have the regulations of the Pennsyl- vania Railroad Voluntary Relief Association offered in evi- dence. I have copies of those. Mr. Stone : Is that to be printed in the record f Mr. Duncan: I don't care about that. Mr. Morrissey: I don't believe it is necessary. Mr. Judson : It is already printed. I do not see any neces- sity for reprinting it. Mr. Duncan: No, I do not see any necessity for printing 872 "those. The Board expressed a desire to have copies of the regulations. The Cairman: That will not be printed. Mr. Duncan: Simply marked, as an exhibit in the case, or : simply handed in as something for the information of the Board, whichever the Board desires. Mr. Van Hise: In view of the fact that Mr. Stone objects to this going in, I do not think it should be marked as an ex- hibit, but we will simply take it for what it is worth. The Chairman: It will not be received as an exhibit, and will not be put in the record. It is simply a pamphlet handed .to us, which we can look at, or not, as we think best. A. M. Smtth was called as a witness' and testified as fol- lows : Mr. Duncan: What is your name? Mr. Smith: A. M. Smith. Mr. Duncan: What is your position, Mr. Smith! Mr. Smith: I am General Manager of the Coal & Coke Railway. Mr. Duncan: And where is the Coal & Coke Railway lo- cated? Mr. Smith: Near the center of the State of West Virginia, the main line extends from Elkins to Charlestown, W. Va. The Chairman : What is that distance ? Mr. Smith: About 175 miles. Mr. Duncan: What is the character of the traffic on your road? Mr. Smith: It is principally coal, coke and lumber. Mr. Duncan: And how many trains a day have you? Mr. Smith: We run two passenger trains each way a day, and from one to five freight trains, depending upon the part of the road, and the business. Mr. Duncan: What are your passenger trains — fast passen- ger trains? Mr. Smith: No, sir; they are all local pas«cni> - ers. slow speed. 873 Mr. Duncan: What is your average speed? Mr. Smith: A little over 20 miles an hour. Mr. Duncan: What is the character of the service required by your company of the engineers on your railroad, as com- pared with the character of the service on the larger lines! Mr. Smith : Well it is very much less. Mr. Duncan: In what respe.ct? Mr. Smith: Well, the trains are so few and the speed so slow, that I do not see how there can be any comparison really; there is certainly a great difference. Mr. Duncan: What type of engine do you use? Mr. Smith: In passenger service we use the eight whjeel type; in freight service we use the Consolidation type. Mr. Duncan: How many engineers do you employ? Mr. Smith: We have at present about 31; at the time this record was made up' I think we had 24, or 27. Mr. Duncan: Are there any other differences in the ser- vices of the engineers on your railroad, as compared for instance- with a Trunk Line Railroad like the Pennsylvania Railroad? Mr. Smith: Well, yes, there are many differences; those I have mentioned ; and the discipline on our road is not so severe and does not need to be so severe because of the few trains and the slow speed, the requirements are not so severe; I think the opportunity for promotion on our road is probably greater than on the older roads. It is a new road and in that respect that opportunity is greater. I think the cost of living Mr. Duncan : Will you speak up so the Board can hear you.. Mr. Smith : I think the cost of living is less there. All those details were gone into in the Arbitration case about a year ago. Mr. Duncan : How do your wages compare with the wages of other railroads? Mr. Smith : They are much lower. Mr. Duncan : Did your engineers have an increase in wages in 1910? Mr. Smith : Yes, sir, February 1st. Mr. Duncan: What brought about the increase? Mr. Smith : Well, there was a general movement all over the country for an increase in wages and they made the same de- mands on our road, or substantially so, — I think exactly the same, 874 as on the larger roads. Finally, after a number of conferences, I agreed with the committees representing not only the engineers but the other organizations, and we settled upon a scale of wages much lower than the other roads. Mr. Duncan : Then, were there any increases in your wages subsequent to that? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir, they were made effective the 1st of April, 1911 ; that was the result of arbitration. Mr. Duncan : An arbitration between whom ? Mr. Smith: Between all four of the organizations on our road, that is the engineers, conductors, trainmen and firemen. Mr. Duncan : Who composed the Board of Arbitrators '? Mr. Smith: Mr. Justice Stafford of the District Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, Mr. Morrissey, and Mr. H. B. Spencer. Mr. Duncan : Were the employes taking the position in that case that the Coal & Coke Railway should pay what they were pleased to call standard rate of wages, namely, wages paid by a larger line? Mr. Smith: Yes, their original claim in some respects was higher, for instance, than on the Baltimore & Ohio and the New York Central. The claims were afterwards reduced somewhat, but still they were, as I recall, about on the plane of the Trunk Lines. Mr. Duncan: What was the result of that arbitration? Mr. Smith : Well, the award gave rates of pay much lower and rules of service which were not so exacting; I mean exacting, in the sense of requiring pay, affecting our payroll. Mr. Duncan: As a part of Mr. Smith's testimony, if the Board please, I would like to offer in evidence a copy of the award of the Arbitrators appointed under the Erdman Act, rendered May 27, in the matter of the arbitration between the Coal & Coke Railway Compny and its employes. Mr. Judson : Did that include engineers? Mr. Duncan: That was between the Coal & Coke Railway, on one side and the Order of Railway Conductors, the Brotherhood of Railway Trainmen, Locomotive Engineers and the Brother- hood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, representing em- ployes of said company on the other part. I have an extra copy here for you, Mr. Stone. 875 In the same connection I would like to offer a copy of the record in that arbitration proceeding so that the Board may have it when it comes to consider the case. I have no desire to ask the Board to reprint the record in this proceeding, but I am merely offering it so it may be available. There are certain points to which we may wish to make reference in either our argument, or the brief that may be filed. Mr. Judson: Was that record ever printed? Mr. Duncan: That record was not printed that I know of. Mr. Clay, the attorney for the Coal & Coke Railway in that pro- ceeding, advises that it was never printed. Mr. Van Hise: It is not my understanding that this docu- ment will be printed again? Mr. Duncan : No. The Chairman : No, it is simply marked for identification. Mr. Duncan: Marked for identification and offered to the Board so it may be available. The Chairman : I wish it to be noted that this is not to be printed but only marked for identification. Mr. Stone : I would like to ask in connection with that, will that also contain the exhibits that you presented to the Board of Arbitrators showing the finances and operation of that company. Mr. Clay : We have not offered it, but we can do so if you prefer. We only have carbon copies. Mr. Duncan : Do you want that offered, or do you want the Board to have an opportunity to consider the exhibit? If so, we will file those with the record of the proceedings. Mr. Stone : If the Board is going to investigate the steno- graphic notes intelligently, in all fairness they should have a copy of the exhibits which go with it, to show the financial con- dition of the company and show the capitalization and opera- tions of the company. The Chairman: I think you are right, Mr. Stone. I think if you put that in to be marked as an exhibit, the additional part asked for by Mr. Stone should be included with it. Mr. Van Hise : But not printed. The Chairman : No, simply marked for identification. Mr. Duncan : We will put it in. We are offering both the award and the testimony for the purpose of giving the Board 876 some information, as to the decision of the Arbitrators in the Coal & Coke Eailway Company case. Our understanding is that the Arbitrators in that proceeding did not stamp with ap- proval the theory advanced by the men, that the Coal & Coke Eailway engineers, trainmen and other employes should receive what the employes were calling a standard wage. Mr. Morrissey : But did they specifically deny the principle in their award? Mr. Duncan : I should imagine they did, Mr. Morrissey, be- cause they could not have reached any other conclusion. But, I am unable to say whether they passed upon that formally or not, because there was no written opinion filed I only judge that from the fact that the employes were claiming a stand- ard wage, as they called it, and the Board apparently did not give it to them. Mr. Judson: When was that, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: That decision was rendered May 27th, 1911. The award was entered as a judgment on June 30th, 1911, in the Circuit Court of the United States for the Southern Dis- trict of West Virginia in accordance with the provisions of the Erdman Act. Mr. Judson: How long was that award continued? Mr. Duncan : It continued for one year subject to cancella- tion thereafter, on thirty days' notice, and as I am advised, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers duly notified the com- pany some time that they would treat the arbitration award as not binding upon them after May 1st, subject however to the provision that the award does continue in effect until this Board passes upon the controversy; in other words, the Coal & Coke Eailway Company then became a party to this Conference Committee. (The award above referred to was marked "Eailway Ex- hibit No. 121 for identification, July 26th, 1912.") Mr. Duncan: What was the amount of the increase given your employes in the early part of 1910? Mr. Smith : About 20 per cent. Mr. Morrissey: Isn't that all contained in the record of the Arbitration? Mr. Duncan: Well, I think I would like to have it in this 877 record, if you please, Mr. Morrissey, because I understand this is not to be printed, and it will only take about two or three questions of that kind to bring it out. "What was the amount of the increase under the award in 1911? Mr. Smith: About the same amount, an additional 20 per cent. Mr. Duncan: Now, what would be the percentage of the increase under the present demands of the engineers involved on your road! Mr. Smith : I figure it would be a little over 56 per cent. Mr. Judson: Is not that all set out in the exhibit! Mr. Duncan : I simply want to bring it out for the purpose of emphasizing the demands made on this railroad in the last three years, 20, 20 and 56 per cent. We have had state- ments made showing the effect these increases will have upon the larger roads, and it occurred to me that by way of illustra- tion it should have the effect it might have on some of the smaller roads. Now, what would the effect of this increase be upon your present financial condition, if the present demands of the en- gineers are granted? Mr. Smith: W.ell, it would simply swamp the road. Mr. Eidlitz: What do you mean by "swamp the road," Mr. Witness? Mr. Smith: Well, we couldn't earn our interest — we couldn't pay our operating expenses and have money enough left to pay interest charges, to say nothing of any dividends on the stock, or any money for any other purpose. Mr. Duncan: That is all. Mr. Morrissey: Which of the four classes in the arbitra- tion of a year ago received the greater percentage of increase? Mr. Smith: Well, I think it was the engineers, Mr. Mor- rissey. Mr. Morrissey: Why was that? Mr. Smith: Well, I couldn't say, as to that. Mr. Morrissey: Was it not because they were lower rela- tively to the engineers' standard than either of the other classes ? Mr. Smith: I don't recall as to that point; perhaps it is so. Mr. Morrissey: Well, are not they today in a lower rela- 878 tion to the wages of engineers general]}', than the other classes on your road? Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know as I could say as to that. I know that they are lower than on other roads, just as all of the men on our road are lower paid than on other roads. Mr. Morrissey: What is your present rate for through freight engineers? Mr. Smith: It is $4.15. We have the same rate for the local — no, no, I am mistaken. It is $4.50, isn't it? No; $4.15. Mr. Morrissey: What is the prevailing rates on the other roads in your territory, for through freight engineers'? Mr. Smith: Well, I do not recall, Mr. Morrissey. Mr. Morrissey: It is considerably higher, is it not? Mr. Smith : Yes, it is considerably higher. Mr. Morrissey : Does it not run as high as $5.25 ? Mr. Smith: I don't recall the period. The schedules have been submitted here and they could easily be referred to ; but I know our rates are much lower. Mr. Morrissey: What is your present rate for through freight conductors! Mr. Smith : I think it is $3.55. Mr. Morrissey :' Isn't it $3.55 per hundred? Mr. Smith: I think it is $3.55. Mr. Duncan: The award will speak for itself. Mr. Smith: Engineers are $4.15 on freight. Mr. Morrissey: And the conductors' rate is what? Mr. Duncan: Under the arbitration, Mr. Morrissey? Mr. Morrissey : Well, that is the present rate. Mr. Smith: $3.55; that is per day. And, of course, these rates in all cases include the preparatory time. Mr. Morrissey: Well, is not that rate per mile? Mr. Smith: Well, it states per mile, but this is on a ten mile an hour basis, and in figuring overtime we do not include the preparatory time ; so, as a matter of fact this rate per day covers — to put it on the same basis as the other roads that do include preparatory time — -this would be on a ten and a half hour day. Mr. Morrissey: What is the prevailing rate for through freight conductors in that territory? What rate were you asked to adopt through the proceedings on this arbitration? 879 Mr. Smith: Well, I don't remember; they are shown in the exhibit here. Mr. Morrissey : Is it not $3.63 per hundred f Mr. Smith: Well, it is about that; I don't remember just what the rate is; but it is shown in this exhibit— oh, the con- ductors' rate is not shown in this exhibit; the engineers' rate is. We did not print all of it. Mr. Morrissey : Then on the flat rate you are but eight cents per hundred behind the recognized standard rate for conductors in that territory? Mr. Smith: No; I wouldn't say so; I would say — our rate is on a different basis, altogether. While it shows $3.55 per mile, at the same time in figuring ten miles an hour we really count ten ard a half hours for a day; putting it on the same basis as the other roads, we really count ten and a half hours for a day ; putting it on the same basis as the other roads. Mr. Morrissey: Well, leaving out the question of prepara- tory time, is not that comparison correct? Mr. bmith : Well, if y-ou leave out part of the pay. We con- sider that we pay for that preparatory time, but in a different way from the schedule of the other roads. Mr. Morrissey : Well, are not the wages of your conductors, brakemen and firemen considerably nearer the recognized stand- ards of those classes for the territory than the wages of your engineers ! Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know how that would figure out; but I do not recognize that there is a standard. Mr. Morrissey : Did you not have to compare the wages of engineers on other roads when you were making up your esti- mate for presentation to the Board? Mr. Smith : In the other arbitration case we did make such comparison, as I recall, but I do not remember what it showed; but I did not make any such comparison in this case. Mr. Stone: Are you through, Mr. Duncan! Mr. Duncan : All through. Ceoss-Examination : Mr. Stone : Mr. Smith, you stated that you have given two increases of 20 per cent, each within the past two years. Is that correct ? 880 Mr. Smith: Well, yes, sir, on the dates I have stated. Mr. Stone: And this request would mean 56 per cent, moref Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That would be 96 per cent, in three years? Mr. Smith : Well, substantially that. Mr. Stone: What did you pay before that? Mr. Smith: Well, we paid much lower rates. I cannot say exactly. Mr. Stone : Your road is an intrastate road, is it not, in- stead of interstate! Mr.jSmith: Well, ov.v road lies wholly within the State of West Virginia. Mr. Stone: Isn't it the fact that you made application for, and received permission to charge intrastate rates in West Vir- ginia, so you could get a higher rate? Mr. Smith: We did not make any application to the Inter- state Commerce Commission, if that is what you mean. Mr. Stone : No, but you made an application to the Railroad Commissioners of West Virginia. The Chairman : You mean rates for passenger and freight service ? Mr. Stone: Yes; made a request to be classed as an intra- state road, instead of an interstate road, so as to charge a higher passenger rate in West Virginia, and that was granted? Mr. Smith : It was not granted in that way, sir. We brought a suit against the Attorney General, and we won the suit. Mr. Duncan: That only related to intrastate passenger busi- ness? Mr. Stone: I understand. The fact remains the permission was given you to charge intrastate rates for your passenger service ? Mr. Smith: I don't know that there is any special intra- state rate. We do charge a higher rate than some roads do, that is true, and we charge that as a result of that suit which we brought. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that the Coal & Coke Railway was only an incident to the development of the 100,000 acres of coal lands that that company owns? 881 Mr. Smith: No, sir; not so far as I know. Mr. Stone: They still own the 100,000 acres of coal lands! Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Supposed to contain eight billion tons of coal? Mr. Smith: I don't know. You have made several esti- mates on that. I haven't estimated it for myself. Mr. Stone: What is the estimated value of that coal in the ground, by those who have made the calculations for your com- pany, your geologists? Mr. Smith : I do not know, sir. Mr. Stone: Isn't it the fact that the geologists who have made this estimate for your people have estimated that there are eight billion tons of coal, at a value of six cents a ton? Mr. Smith : Not so far as I know. Mr. Stone : Does the company still own the houses the men live in? Mr. Smith: We still own some of the houses that some of the men live in, just as we did substantially at the arbitration a year ago. Mr. Stone : The company still owns the water company and taxes the water the men drink? Mr. Smith: No, sir, never did own it. Mr. Stone: Never did? Mr. Smith: No, sir. Mr. Stone: It is the same company ,under another name? Mr. Smith: No, sir; it is a different company. The rail- way company owns a small interest in the Gassoway Develop- ment Company, and that is set forth in this report, every de- tail of it. Mr. Stone: The heirs of Senator Elkins and Senator Gas- soway Davis, and the other brothers-in-law, still own the rail- road and the land? Mr. Smith: They control the road. I do not know exactly what the holdings are. Mr. Stone : Does your road lie wholly in the State of West Virginia ? Mr. Smith : Yes, sir. Mr. Judson : And, does it handle freight in connection with other roads? 882 Mr. Smith: We have through billing arrangements and we have interchangeable' mileage. Mr. Judson : That extends to other railroads in other states, •doesn't it? Mr. Smith: This interchangeable mileage does, yes, sir. Mr. Judson: Is that held not to be interstate business! Mr. Smith: Oh, no. Do you now refer to this suit which we had? Mr. Judson: I understood you to say it was adjudged, in West Virginia, that you were strictly an intrastate road. Mr. Duncan: That was a case in which the Coal & Coke Eailway attacked the constitutionality of the State Two Cent Passenger Fare Law, and the Court held that the Two Cent Pas- senger Fare Law was unconstitutional because it was confisca- tory, as to the Coal & Coke Eailway. Mr. Judson : That is another question. Mr. Morrissey : If your road was not engaged in interstate -commerce, you could not have had the arbitration we had a year ago, could you? Mr. Smith : I don 't see why not. Mr. Judson: Isn't that applicable only to railroads engaged in interstate commerce? Mr. Smith: Perhaps that is true. I don't know; but I sup- posed it could be applied to any road. Mr. Judson: T don't think Congress could, by any other act. Mr. Smith : At all events, we agreed to the arbitration undei the Erdman Act, and did so. Mr. Stone : Do the employes still buy heat and light from the Grassoway Lia-ht & Power Company? Mr. Smith: So far as I know, they never have done so. Mr. Stone: You don't sell any coal to any employes, do you? Mr. Smith: Sometimes; yes, sir. Mr. Stone: In your stenographic statement before the Arbi- tration Board, you stated that your company never sold coal? Mr. Smith : We are not in the coal business, no, but in answer to that, or in explantion of that, we have, for instance, along 1 the line, section men who cannot get the natural gas, which they can get at the terminals, and who prefer to burn coal, and in ihose cases we furnish them with coal. 883 Mr. Stone: Where they can get natural gas, you will not furnish them with coal ? Mr. Smith : I would say that where they can get the natural gas, they do not want the coal, but we furnish them with it, if they request it. Mr. Stone : Where they can, you do not ? Mr. Smith: Oh, no — they don't want it. Mr. Stone: Does the company still own those company stores ! ' Mr. Smith: The company stores? Mr. Stone : Yes. Mr. Smith: Well, the situation now is exactly the same as it was at the time of this arbitration; the company stores you refer to are the Mine Store, I suppose. That is owned by an independent company. Mr. Stone : The stores that you furnish the employes passes for, so they can go there and trade ; those are the ones I refer to. Mr. Smith : Yes, they request us that we furnish passes and if they can buy cheaper there we are perfectly willing to let them do so. Mr. Stone: Now, what did you pay for this railroad? Mr. Smith : The railroad and equipment cost somewheres beT tween $11,000,000 and $12,000,000, as I recall ; well, somewheres in that neighborhood. Mr. Stone : Is is not a fact you only gave $1,600,000 for the road you originally took over? Mr. Smith : No. Mr. Stone: It is so stated in your testimony. Mr. Smith : No, I think not, sir. Oh, that may relate to a part of the line, the old Charleston, Clendennin & Sutton, which is a small portion of this line ; I don 't remember Mr. Stone : It is the old road and you extended it under that charter, did you not ? Mr. Smith : No. There may have been some little extension under that charter, but I think not. I think it was all built under the Coal & Coke. The road is made up of three small roads and then the construction of the connecting links. Mr. Stone: What is the capitalization of that company to- day? 884 Mr. Smith: The stock is $20,000,000, the bonds are $5,000,- 000 ; the bonds are not all outstanding, however. Mr. Stone: What is the floating debt? Mr. Smith: About a million and a half; I don't remember just how much. I can furnish that information and a full state- ment of it, if you desire, or the Board desires. Mr. Stone : So you really have got a capitalization of about $27,000,000? Mr. Smith : No. Mr. Stone : How much of that stock is in the treasury yet! Mr. Smith: I don't think any of it is ; I don't know. All of that is explained in this record, and if the Board wishes it brought down to date, we will be glad to furnish it to date, all of the detailed information. Mr. Stone : You stated the opportunity for promotion was much greater on your road than on these main trunk lines. To what do you refer? Mr. Smith: "Well, it is a comparatively new road and the requirements in our service are not so great, so that a man may become competent to handle an engine on our road quicker than he could on the larger roads. Mr. Stone: Don't you require the same class of service of him? Mr. Smith: No, I think not. Mr. Stone: What tonnage do you handle on your coal trains ? Mr. Smith: Well, we handle on the northern district 10 hoppers, as a train, about 725 tons gross. Mr. Stone : What is your grade ? Mr. Smith: 1.67 in that direction. Mr. Stone : Almost a mountain grade ; 2 per cent, is con- sidered a mountain grade, is it not? Mr. Smith: Well, I don't know, I have operated on a 2 per cent, grade, in a country that was not mountainous. Mr. Stone: What do you handle on your other division? Mr. Smith: On the Southern Division, we handle a maxi- mum of 35 loads, for the small engine and 40 loads, for the larger engine. Mr. Stone: That is 100 ton capacity cars? 885 Mr. Smith: "Well, we don't run but very few of those 100 ton capacity cars. That was rated on the 40 ton capacity cars, but they might be able to handle a 50 ton capacity car. I have never tried it. Mr. Stone: So you really handle about 2'000 tons, is that right? Mr. Smith: Well, no — yes, about that. Mr. Willard : I take it that neither one of you really meant to say 100 ton capacity cars. Mr. Smith: No, 50 ton cars. Mr. Stone: 100,000 pounds capacity, 50 ton cars, I should have said. Mr. Smith : But, this rate is based on the 40 ton car. Mr. Stone : Do you mean to go on record, as saying it does not require as much skill to handle a 2,000 ton train on your mountain railroad, as it does on these other main lines! Mr. Smith: Well, Mr. Stone, we do not handle 2,000 ton trains on our mountain railroad' as you say. I don't consider it so at all. We handle 725 tons gross. Mr. Stone : I think that is all. Mr. Morrissey: Did I understand you to say that the per- centage of increase of your engineers in 1911, was 20 per cent.? Mr. Smith: Yes, sir. I figure it 20.43. Mr. Morrissey: Is not there some mistake then, in your figures, as shown in Exhibit No. 8? Mr. Smith: I am glad you mentioned that, Mr. Morrissey. That shows, I think, 15 per cent., does it not? Mr. Morrissey: Yes. Mr. Smith: At the time of the award of the arbitrators about a year ago we made an estimate of what that would amount to, and we estimated then that it would amount to about 15 per cent., and in making up the statement for this Conference Committee that it included in that exhibit, I used that percentage without figuring it over, and later in figuring it over what it really meant to us it figures out 20.43 per cent/ so that I used the last true figure. I did not notice that dif- ference until after I got here. It should have been corrected. All of them should be 20.43. Mr. Duncan: And it appears correctly in some of the state- ments, does it not? 886 Mr. Smith: I think it does. Mr. Duncan: Is that all, Mr. Stone"? Mr. Stone: Yes. (Witness excused.) Mr. Duncan : If the Commission please, I want to call its attention to pages 414, and 416, of the record in the Coal & Coke Eailway Company case, which record I offer in evidence, as an exhibit. Mr. Judson: But, it is understood that Mr. Stone shall have the same right to call our attention to any other pages of the record that he may see fit. Mr. Duncan: Yes. The Chairman : And, let it be noted that it has been offered, as an exhibit, for identification and reference only, and not to be printed. (The stenographic record above referred to was marked Railways' Exhibit No. 122, for identification, July 26th, 1912.) Mr. Duncan : I wish to offer as a part of our case, Bulletin No. 34, prepared by the Bureau of Railway Economics, "A com- parative study of the railway wages and the cost of living in the United States, the United Kingdom and the principal coun- tries of continental Europe." I am not offering this for the purpose of having the Board gain the impression that we want to compare wages in this country with wages in foreign countries, but my impression is that some member of the Board expressed a desire to have some information of that kind, and we have, therefore, secured it, and are presenting it to the Board for whatever purpose this Board may care to use it. Mr. Stone: May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman! The Chairman: Yes. Mr. Stone: Is that the same thing as appeared in the press throughout the country, as purporting to come from the Interstate Commerce Commission? Mr. Duncan : I do not know what you are referring to. Mr. Stone : A comparison of the cost of living in this coun- try and in Europe. Mr. Duncan: I do not think the Bureau of Railway Econo- mics would care to mask under the Interstate Commerce Com- mission. The Chairman : I think, Mr. Duncan, this paper that you offer, we will mark for identification and reference. Mr. Duncan : That is all I am wanting, Mr. Straus, but some members of the Board expressed a desire to have some informa- tion of that kind, and I want to give them all the information I can. The Chairman : Not to be printed in this record. Mr. Duncan: I have an extra copy here for Mr. Stone, if he wants it. (The pamphlet above referred to, marked Railways' Ex- hibit No. 123, for identification, July 26th, 1912). Mr. Stone: May I ask, Mr. Chairman, in order to intelli- gently handle our briefs, will the cost of living in foreign coun- tries have any bearing whatever before this Board? Then, in all fairness, we ought to show the work the man does in the foreign country. Mr. Judson: I take it, Mr. Stone, these things are merely given out for reference. You might refer to an article in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, or the dictionary. I think all docu- ments of this kind are available to the Board, for its enlighten- ment, and we will be glad to read anything to which you refer. Mr. Stone: I would most seriously object to any compari- son being drawn between the standard of living of the locomo- tive engineer in Germany, or Bussia, or somewhere else, as com- pared with our American standard of living, because I do not think there is any comparison. The Chairman: I understand this also is offered as a part of our reference library. Mr. Duncan : That is correct. J. C. Stuart was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stuart : I am Vice-President of the Erie Railroad. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, when the figures which are before you were compiled by Mr. TTorthington and his Staff — The Chairman: You mean by that, the exhibits which were ■offered by the railway companies'? Mr. Stuart : Yes. They were offered for the period ending June 30, 1911, as I recall. Now, the Erie Railroad, the New York, Susquehanna & Western and the New Jersey & New York, which I represent, compiled figures up to date, up to June 30, 1912, one fiscal year later, so that they are more correct and more up to date, and I am taking the liberty of making that statement and submitting these later figures, as compiled by the •Comptroller of the Erie Eailroad. The Chairman: Do you offer those as exhibits? Mr. Stuart : I propose to. I just want to mention one figure on each item, and that is to show the deficit after fixed charges :are paid, as indicated, up to June 30, 1912, on the Erie Eailroad, and if the increase asked by the engineers and the collateral in- creases on the same percentage basis, should be allowed, the Erie Railroad will show a deficit of $842,000, below its fixed charges. That is the exhibit, as to the Erie. (The Table referred to was received in evidence and marked Railroad's Exhibit No. 124, of this date). Mr. Stuart : The New York, Susquehanna & Western Rail- road, under the same conditions, will show a deficit, for fixed charges of $149,402. (The table referred to was received in evidence and marked Railroad's Exhibit No. 125, of this date). Mr. Stuart: The New Jersey & New York Railroad, under the same conditions, will show a deficit for fixed charges of $58,482. (The table referred to was received in evidence and marked Railroad's Exhibit No. 126, of this date). Mr. Stuart : I submit these exhibits, as they are up to date, up to the last period. The Auditor and Comptroller of the Erie Railroad is prepared to come here within two hours notice, and to verify all these figures, which I do not attempt to verify, or to furnish the collateral data. The Chairman : For the information of at least some mem- bers of this Board, give me a definition, if you can, of what you mean by "fixed charges." Mr. Stuart : In general, the term, as used by me, expresses the amount necessary to maintain the integrity' of the railroad 889 and avoid having it go into the hands of a receiver. The fixed charges are the charges that are necessary to pay, like the bond issue. If the bonds are not paid, the owners will foreclose the property. The Chairman : So it does not include any dividend, or pay- ment of any securities outside of the bonds, does it! Mr. Stuart: Absolutely none, with the exception of per- haps some leased lines, whose rental is equivalent to the loss of the leased lines, and the destruction of the integrity of the property. Mr. Van Hise : But, it does include appropriations for ad- ditions and betterments? Mr. Stuart: Yes. Mr. Van Hise : Which, under the Interstate Commerce rule, is a capital account! Mr. Stuart: Yes. The difficulty has been to sell securities to furnish that money, in our case. Briefly, again, Mr. Straus, the failure to pay those fixed charges would result in bank- ruptcy. Mr. Morrissey: Would that be a new experience for the Erie Railroad? Mr. Stuart: The first time, in my experience, on the Erie Eailroad. Mr. Van Hise : In connection with these exhibits, so it will be plain to the Board, I would like to call attention to the fact that on the Erie Railroad, the figures show an appropriation, for additions and betterments, amounting, for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1911— is that right? Mr. Stuart: There is one there for the fiscal year ended June 30, 1911. Mr. Van Hise: —to $1,339,737, and for "December 31, 1911? Mr. Stuart: That is the calendar year. Mr. Van Hise : The calendar year ended December 31, 1911,. $1,183,456. Mr. Stuart: And, in the next column. Mr. Van Hise: An estimated amount, to June 30, 1912, of $633,092. Mr. Stuart : Yes. Gentlemen, I .am going to beg your in- dulgence for what I may say. Some of it perhaps might not 890 be directly connected with this particular function, but from my point of view, it is indirectly connected, and very much so. We have had a great deal of able testimony here in regard to the cases we are severally representing, and I have mentally divided it into the parties of the second part and the parties of the third part. The party of the first part has not been very ably defended, and I assume, from my thought, that the party ■of the first part is the public, who pays the freight. In my discussions with labor leaders, and employers, gen- erally, in regard to what has led up to this conference, the apparent feeling that the public are not very much interested in the raising of the rates; that the wage increase is a similar proposition; you raise your pay and yotl raise your rates, and then everything is harmonious. Now, while I have not been retained to represent the public specifically, yet, and would not be authorized to speak generally, for the public, the public is on record and I might be pardoned for reciting a few things as indicated by the public, because railway employes do not fully realize it, and if they do fully realize it, they do not admit it. And, I would like to recite briefly the conditions under the Federal and State laws, where- in the public do regulate railroads, and to what extent. The specific things, either under State, or Federal laws, in whole or in part : Financing, through the process of issuance of bonds and stocks, in the maintenance of way and construction of stations, elimination of grade crossings, crossings of new lines at grade, the general character of track, maintenance of equipment, boiler inspection, safety appliances, steel cars, and so forth. In the transportation expense, the Eight and Nine Hour Laws, Sixteen Hour Law, Full Crews, train service, time of trains, Employes Compensation Act, Wages through Erdman Act, mediation and arbitration. The New York State Law, looked upon as the last word in regulation of railroads, bestows upon the Commission greater power than possessed by a railroad manager. The Chairman: You mean the Railwav Commission of the State? Mr. Stuart : Yes. The law creating the Commission bestows upon that Commission greater power than possessed by rail- 891 ,road managers. This leaves but one remaining responsibility to the investor, namely, the burden of the loss of his investment. In connection with the control by the people, I should like to quote a few things that have been said by the Interstate Com- merce Commission, as a whole, in regard to the investigation of the advance of rates by carriers in the Official Classification ter- ritory under date of February 22nd, 1911. They state : "Advances are justified" (they refer to the advances asked for) ' ' upon the ground that the cost of operating has so increased that although gross operating income has continued to grow the net operating income has become and is insufficient. Some claim was put forward by certain carriers that certain of these ad- vances were justifiable upon grounds other than the need of additional revenue, but this is not much insisted upon. The justification presented by the carriers is the want of additional revenue, and the question presented to us is : Are these de- fendants justified in laying this additional transportation bur- den upon the public, for the purpose of obtaining greater net revenue f "Strictly speaking, this Commission has no jurisdiction to hear and determine that question. We have no authority, as such, to say what amount these carriers shall earn, nor to es- tablish a schedule of rates which will permit them to earn thati amount. Our authority is limited to inquiring into the reason- ableness of a particular rate or rates and establishing that rate or practice which is found lawful, in place of the one condemned as unlawful. "This Commission must stand for the entire public, includ- ing the railways. It cannot accede to the mere wish of any class ; it must recognize the just demands of all classes; and it must have in mind those who do not appear as well as those who are represented before it. "Next to agriculture our railroads are the greatest single industry. In their ordinary maintenance and operation great number of laborers and vast quantities of supplies are used." I am quoting constantly. "There is another aspect in which this stock and bond fac- tor is important. The Government has invited private capital to invest in the construction and operation of these public utili- 892 ties. While it might have established the rate, it has left that to competitive forces. The public has for many years known the results of the operations of these defendants, and their securi- ties have thereby acquired certain values upon the market. At these values enormous private investments have been made. We were told upon the hearing of the extent to which savings banks and insurance companies held the securities, especially the bonds, of these railways. We know that private investors have bought, not for speculative purposes, but as legitimate and permanent investments, large amounts of the stocks of many of these com- panies. "Now, this Government having permitted this to be done cannot close its eyes to the fact that it has been done. We can- not be oblivious to the effect of our action upon the value of these investments which have been made in good faith. In this view the market value of these stocks and bonds for the past ten years certainly, and the effect which our action may have upon their market value for the future, must be considered. We cannot of course allow such rates as will in all cases guarantee or perpetuate the prices at which these stocks have been bought, but in viewing the entire situation we should have that price in mind. "It seems fair to assume, therefore, that the general cost to the railroad of its supplies, will not be greater in the imme- diate future than it has been in the immediate past. "The same remark would seem to apply to wages as they stand after the recent increases. Railroad labor, certainly or- ganized railroad labor, is probably as well paid, and some say better paid, than labor of other kinds, upon the average. Bail- road employes will hardly expect to receive wages which exceed those paid to other forms of labor for the same grade of service, and this Commission certainly could not permit the charging of rates for the purpose of enabling railroads to pay their 'aborers extravagant compensation as measured by the general average compensation paid labor in this country as a whole. It is likely, therefore, that the labor item of these railroads will not in the immediate future much increase unless there should be a general advance in all prices. "The demands of the public will continue to add both to the expense of operation and to the cost of the plant. Greater 893 safety of operation will be insisted upon and this will require the outlay of considerable sums upon ways and structures, and also extensive changes in equipment, and will still further add to the cost of operation itself, by requiring the employment of addi- tional men and the use of those men under different conditions. "It is also probable that taxes will continue to in- crease more rapidly than the increase in the value of the pro- perty. "Just how much all this will add to the cost of operation or to the capital account upon which earnings may be demanded cannot be predicted with any degree of certainty. "It was said by railway representatives that this increase in expenses can no longer be offset by the introduction of further economies in the future as in the past, and it seems probable that the same sort of economies cannot be relied upon to the same extent. Grades have already been reduced and curves elimin- ated, so that little remains to be done upon our first class rail- way systems in that direction. "To recapitulate: "The cost of supplies will not much advance. "Wages will not much increase. "The demands of the public will continue to grow. "Traffic will increase, but the same advantage may not accrue to carriers in this territory in the future as in the past. "Something should be expected from the introduction of additional economies, but perhaps not to the same extent as in the past. Their final conclusion in refusing the rate increase is as follows : "If actual results should demonstrate that our forcast of the future is wrong, there might be ground for asking a further consideration of this subject. But it should be further said that before any general ad- vance can be permitted it must appear proper with reasonable certainty that carriers have exercised proper economy in the purchase of their supplies, in the payment of their wages, and in the general conduct of their business." Now, gentlemen, that is the last word from the people, as represented by those who are qualified, and who are authorized to represent the people. 894 Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stuart, how do you interpret the ex- pression of Mr. Prouty there, as to economies in the payment of wages? Mr. Stuart : I assume, Mr. Morrissey, that would apply in the same manner that it did to economy in the purchase of sup- plies. I presume they intended, in supplies, that we would en- ter the market and that we would buy at the lowest price, and in the labor market I assume the railroads would be expected to purchase their labor at the market price, or the best price they could get. Now, gentlemen, he 1 *** : ~ ""» thi^i? that I feel constrained to bring to your attention. My apology for doing it is based on my own personal experience. The reason that you gentlemen are sitting befoire us here is because the railroad employes and the railroad officers are unable to agree, for apparently good and sufficient reasons; and the reason we failed to agree was that we had nothing left to give. The community was confronted by a crisis, and it is need- less for me to enlarge upon the gravity of that crisis. I can simply say, to avoid that crisis, the Chief Justice of The Su- preme Court of the United States, the Commissioner of Labor and the Presiding Judge of the Commerce Court, jointly, select- ed you gentlemen. We have not settled anything, as yet. We might settle what I might call this local affair, but is the country to be confronted with a crisis every few months, or are we to go through all of this difficulty without learning a lesson? I think not. I think, and I am in hope, that this is only a stepping-stone for a better solution of these difficulties. If you gentlemen fail to grant the engineers all they ask for, will they be satisfied? At the end of the year there is no doubt, based on previous experience, that this country will again be confronted with a crisis. Taking the other side of it : If the railroads lose all this, will they be any better off than they are, in their inability to meet thjese conditions that I have cited, and to meet the public requirements ? There is an organization as large as the one we are deal- ing with, that is waiting to have this case concluded. They 895 have indicated to me that they would be glad to have this Com- mission take the case over while they are sitting here, hut I have seen no inclination on the part of the Commission to do it. If they will do it, we would be delighted to have them; but, the presumption is they will not. We will again be con- fronted with this same crisis, and we will have to go again through all of this. And it is a great pity if the public are to be alarmed every three or four months or more and if the rail- roads and the employes are to be required to go to this expense and take the time of men whose time is really required at other places, and never discover a process of settlement. That is the situation, and th,at is what prompts me to read a few lines to you, as to my personal views on what I think is a very im- portant matter, that is, the responsibility of labor organiza- tions. During the past decade wage increased and public require- ments have constantly increased and became more pronounced, gradually reducing the net revenue. The reduction has continued until the railroads are unable to continue wage increases and this has produced a serious and new condition which should be fairly considered in the interest of the common carrier and the whole public. These conditions have developed the "Concerted Movement," so-called, and the elimination of individual conferences and consideration be- tween railroad companies and their organized employes. Or- ganized labor has been growing more powerful and is now con- trolled by able and aggressive leaders, who have orgainzed so- called "Legislative Boards," in Washington, and the majority of states, and it is conceded that the machinery of these legis- ative boards is well organized and all-powerful. The power invested in the Labor Leaders with the absence of responsibility, is alarming. Wl:jile they have the vote and endorsement of the men they represent, yet it is apparent to those who know, that the moving spirit is the leader, or the leader and his staff. In the past five years the company I represent has received five strike votes. The leader in charge claimed he had the power to stop the highways of this country and expressed his intention to exercise it; to appreciate the gravity of this situa- tion, imagine any other individual — a President of a railroad,. 896 or its directors, assuming to stop the public highways for any reason and deprive forty to fifty millions of citizens of the necessities of life! If such an attempt were made, some lawful drastic action would immediately follow, and yet, at this period, there is no law to cover the action, or determine the responsibility of the leaders who possess this greater power and who have repeat- edly stated their intention to exercise it. The best test of their power is for the general public to attempt to pass a Federal Law to place responsibility upon organized labor engaged in interstate traffic. If the common carriers are responsible to the public, as operating agent, why should not employes, organ- ized or otherwise, be held responsible to some extent to perform their duties to the public, as part of the complete transporta- tion organization? Organized labor appears to resent -every • effort to apply responsibility. There need be no undue sentiment regarding any class of labor we are dealing with. It is all honorable and worthy of its hire. The engineers are engaged in a very laudable desire to secure an increase in their compensation, but it was clearly explained to them the inability to pay, but such evidence was not effective and it is regretted tbjat one of the strongest and most intelligent of organizations is not influenced by the in- ability to pay, which is essential to a proper solution of indus- trial problems. A president of a strong labor organization, within a year requesting a substantial increase, was asked by the committee whether he had considered the ability of the rail- roads to pay, and where the money was to come from; he re- plied that he was not a financier and really did not know, and yet he had the power to stop the whjeels on every railroad in the United States. Organized labor is constant in its endeavor to benefit its members and has done good, but it should guard against the danger of unlimited power. Great power, unrestricted and con- stantly successful, requires a broader control, consideration and direction, and there is constant danger that in the exercise of such power it may encroach upon the right of those not possessed of equal power and strength. Stating my own personal views, it is proper to regulate the 897 common carrier, but it is equally as essential to regulate labor organizations engaged in public transportation, the purpose be- ing to maintain the principle of property rights and the con- tinued prosperity of this country under our immediate civiliza- tion; these observations and conclusions are given in no offen- sive spirit. Organized labor is an institution and, in the con- duct of quasi-public properties, it should share in public regu- lation to the same general extent, now, or in future, exercised over transportation. You might say, "What has that got to do with this wage increase"! I am taking some liberty' with you, gentlemen, in submitting that, hoping that it may find a way — a step — perhaps the first step in the direction of better things. That is all J have, gentlemen. Mr. Stone: Did I understand you to say that you had had five strike votes on the Erie, within the past five years! Mr. Stuart: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : With all those strike votes, was the Erie ever up to the standard rate until the last settlement with the conduc- tors and trainmen? Mr. Stuart: I don't know what the "standard rate" is. I never knew a standard rate. Mr. Stone : Well, did the Erie pay as high as its competing lines in the same territory, until the last settlement ? Mr. Stuart: The Erie Railroad for the past five years, has paid the average rate of the competing lines in its immediate territory. Mr. Stone : Do you mean to say by that, you pay the same average rate, as the New York Central, or the Pennsylvania, or the Baltimore & Ohio, who are your chief competitors between Chicago and tidewater? Mr. Stuart: I don't consider the Baltimore & Ohio, per se, an immediate competitor, because the great portion of the Balti- more & Ohio traffic does not compete with Erie traffic at all. Mr. Morrissey : If every other railroad in the territory fol- lowed, the plan of the Erie in paying the average rate for the territory, what would be the ultimate result ? Mr. Stuart: I don't know, Mr. Morrissey, but I have always considered': that the ability to pay had a great deal to do with the amount vou pay. I am old fashioned about that. 898 Mr. Morrissey: Wouldn't it eventually be a standard rate? Mr. Stuart: Well, if every railroad paid $7.00 a. day for the same amount of work, under the same conditions., and every fea- ture of it was the same, that, I would say, would be an identical rate. You may call it ' ' standard " or " equal ' ' rate, or any other name you care to use to express it. There is no doubt about that. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that up untl 1906, you were on a trip rate basis on the Erie Railroad! Mr. Stuart : In some directions, yes. Mr. Stone : So far as enginemen were concerned, they were paid on a trip basis, were they not? Mr. Stuart: Yes. Mr. Stone : Is it not also a fact that in 1906, when the com- mittee applied for an increase, you informed them the only way to get that increase was by going on the mileage basis? Mr. Stuart : Yes. Would you like to know my reasons for it? Mr. Stone : Yes, I am perfectly willing to hear your reasons. Mr. Stuart: Well, they were very good and sufficient. It seemed that the passenger engineers on the Erie Railroad, for a period of some years before that, had control of the commit- tee, which adjusted the wages, and they had succeeded in get- ting extremely high rates, and they overlooked the freight men. The freight man's rates were lower, and in order to give the freight man full justice, we concluded that we had better go to a mileage rate. There is no particular reason, on the Erie Rail- road, why we should not go to a mileage rate, and it was for the purpose of doing the most good to the most people that we adopted the mileage rate. ( Mr. Stone : When you say the most people, do you mean the people who own the Erie stock, or the engineers? Mr. Stuart: I mean the engineers engaged in freight ser- vice. Mr. Stone : What is the date of your first agreement w*i.th the engineers on the Erie Railroad? Mr. Stuart : I don 't know. Mr. Stone: I would say for the information of the Board that- the first agreement of the Erie Railroad was written in 1887. Is it not a fact that as far back as 1877, long before there 899 was a committee, you had this same trip rate that was changed in 1906! Mr. Stuart: I do not know. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact also that by forcing the men to a mileage basis in 1906, you reduced the wages of your passenger engineers ? Mr. Stuart : Very properly so. They were getting too much compared to the men on some of the same divisions and on ad- joining divisions, where the conditions were identical; a pas- senger engineer got very much more proportionately, than a freight engineer. The engineers admitted the iniquity of it, themselves. I explained to you how that occurred. The pas- senger engineers were all on the committee, and the committee ruled. Mr. Stone : I would like, Mr. Chairman, with your permis- sion, to read in the record, that in 1877, the Erie Company paid the passenger engineers that pulled their trains between Jersey City and Buffalo, $18.66 ; that is what it cost to get one of their passenger trains from Jersey City to Buffalo. In 1906, after they were forced on the mileage basis by the General Manager, Mr. Stuart, it was $17.47. Mr. Stuart : Take it on the other hand, did the freight engi- neers get any increase of their compensation, when we made that rule? Mr. Stone: In some places they did, and in some I believe they got a reduction. Mr. Stuart : I think not any reduction on through freight. I don't know, but the schedule was made as an equitable schedule, having only one thought in mind in making the schedule, to be fair to all the engineers. Some of the engineers had a great deal the best of it. They were very brotherly, excepting when it came to dividing up the payroll; they were not so brotherly about that, and those who had the best jobs kept trying to make them better. Mr. Morrissey : Is that confined to engineers ? Mr. Stuart : Oh, no, that is human. Mr. Stone : It is not confined altogether — is there not. some of that in the official family as well. Mr. Stuart: I said it was human. I hope we are human beings. 900 Mr. Stone : I hope so. Mr. Stuart : I include myself in all these evil things. Mr. Stone : The point I was to emphasize is — I want to bring out the fact that the engineer received a higher rate, on the Erie Eailroad, ten years before the Brotherhood had a committee and before it even existed on that road, than he received after 29 years, when we did have a committee. Mr. Stuart: What does that prove, Mr. Stone? It might have been very proper. Your statement does not have any force at all, because you simply make a statement and give no reasons for the result. Mr. Stone : It proves this, there was no passenger committee and they did not dominate the rate. Mr. Stuart : It might not have been a Brotherhood of Loco- motive Engineers, but there is no doubt that somebody made the schedule. Mr. Stone: Has the Erie Eailroad ever given an increase voluntarily? Mr. Stuart: Yes. What do you mean by voluntarily? Mr. Stone: Without being forced to, without a strike vote? Mr. Stuart : Mr. Kelly can answer that. He has never pre- sented a strike vote until this last period. Now you bring up a subject, Mr. Stone, that I would like to make clear Mr. Stone : Would you please note that he gives us a clean bill of health, Mr. Chairman, that we never brought up a strike vote until this time? Mr. Stuart : I am very glad to admit it, but Mr. Stone, you made a statement awhile ago that really I did not intend to con- tradict at all, but you are really not quite fair to me. You said that I had stated we never gave anything to the men unless it was forced out of us. I could not find that in the book. I looked hard for it, but I found, as near as I can get to it, that you made that statement and I quoted your words by saying, "as you say." You were going to show me the page and line, but you have not done so. Mr. Stone : I have been so busy on this cross examination that I have not read it, but I think it is in the stenographic notes. Mr. Stuart : Yes, but would you be fair enough to presume that you might be mistaken? Because I can produce the proof to the contrary. 901 Mr. Stone: Oh, it may be barely possible I am mistaken. I am not infallible. Mr. Stuart: Very well, we will dismiss it. I accept the apology. Mr. Stone: I would like if you are going into the records, the statement of Mr. Stuart, on page 47, of the stenographic notes, of the Conference to also appear. Mr. Stuart: What has that to do with this case? Not that I am ashamed of anything that I have said, but do you want to file the whole record? Mr. Duncan: We have no objection to the Board adding to its library the record in that case. Mr. Stuart : We did not agree to anything, there ; therefore these gentlemen are here. Mr. Duncan: We have no objection to the Board adding to its library the record of the Conference between tibe Brother- hood of Locomotive Engineers and the Conference Committee, if it is desired. Mr. Stone : I should like to file, as part of your library, the stenographic notes of the Conference which took place between the Conference Committee of Managers and myself, as repre- senting the Brotherhood. Mr. Stuart : Go ahead and state it. I have no objection. Mr. Morrissey: Do you attach as much importance to that, as to the wages of engineers in Germany? Mr. Stone: Just about the same. The Chairman : That will be added to the reference library. Mr. Van Hise: But not to be printed? The Chairman: No. Mr. Stone : I would like to ask you, Mr. Stuart, on the com- pilation that has been presented, this black book that they 'refer to, how you reconcile the statement on Exhibit 14 — The Chairman: What sheet? Mr. Stone : It is the Erie, sheet 2, of Exhibit 14. There you will note, in passenger service, on the Mahoning Division, the maximum is $217.68 — Mahoning Division maximum. Mr. Stuart: Yes. Of all the engineers on that particular run. Mr. Stone : This says, ' ' showing normal monthly earnings accruing on runs of regularly assigned men." 902 Mr. Duncan: What exhibit is that? Mr. Stone: Exhibit 14, sheet 2, $217.68 maximum on the Mahoning Division. On the Chicago Division on through freight — Mr. Stuart : One minute ; one at a time, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone : They are. right there together. Mr. Stuart: Oh, yes; I have got it. Mr. Stone: $217.68 maximum capacity; on the Chicago Division in through freight, $235.29. Now, on Exhibit 16, if you will turn to it please, you will find this is maximum monthly earnings of engineers, as shown from your pay-roll. The maxi- mum in passenger service is $200.29 and the maximum in freight is $202.38. Exhibit 16. Mr. Stuart: Yes. Mr. Stone: Why is that discrepancy? Mr. Stuart : Well, Mr. Stone, it is only fair for me to say, as others have said, that they did not compile these figures. I gave instructions to have them very carefully compiled and sub- mitted to Mr. Worthington, who was conducting this compila- tion, and I could not throw any light on the situation by passing any detailed remarks on it. They are all subject to examina- tion and correction, if they are correct. Our aim was to have them correct, and we have the supporting data either to approve their correctness, or to admit an error; but personally, I could not answer your question. I should be glad to, but I cannot. Mr. Stone: Well r is it not evident that either one sheet, or the other is not correct? Mr. Stuart : Perhaps so ; I don 't know. Mr. Duncan: Mr. Stone, Exhibit 16 shows the actual earn- ings of the locomotive engineer. We took one month, and those were the ten highest paid. That is what they actually received. Mr. Stuart: Were these not taken from the pay-roll, as I understand it? Mr. Duncan: Exhibit 16 was taken right from the pay-roll. Mr. Stuart: These names were taken from the pay-roll. I would be glad to furnish the engineers' names, if you want them. Mr. Duncan : They have been sick, or may not have served some days, or may have served more days. Mr. Stone : They are not regularly assigned men then, be- 903 cause on the other, you show men on the regularly assigned, runs. Mr. Duncan: Some may be regularly assigned men, and some may not be. Mr. Stone : How could a man on the regularly assigned run earn more money, by $35 a month, than the highest man on your road? Mr. Stuart: I do not quite get that point. You have to elucidate that to me again. We have to go back again, do we not, to the Mahoning Division, now? The first sheet was on the regularly assigned runs on whjich they showed 100%, on the Mahoning Division; the maximum pay was $217. So far, I understand you. Mr. Stone: Yes, sir; that is the maximum. Mr. Stuart : Now, over at this other point — Mr. Stone: You take the ten highest men on the whole road and vet you can't get it. Mr. Stuart: 210— Mr. Stone : $202 is the highest. Mr. Stuart : $200 in passenger. Mr. Stone: Yes, and $202 in freight as against $235. Mr. Stuart: Yes, that appears to be an error. Mr. Quick: The detail in the office, Mr. Stuart, will show that clearly. The man who actually got the money might not have gone on every day that his assignment would have per- mitted him to work. Mr. Stone: Is the work on the Erie Railroad so hard that never in its history has a man on an assigned run worked a full month? Mr. Stuart: I am afraid Mr. Quick could not answer that question. Mr. Stone: That is the only inference that can be drawn t from it, that no man on an assigned run has ever worked a full month. Mr. Duncan: Exhibit 16 only shows what a man did in any particular month. Exhibit 14 shows what he could have done, if he had worked to, under normal circumstances. Mr. Stone : That is the very point I want to bring out. Is it possible, on the Erie System, with 1,400, or 1,500 engineers,, that no engineer has ever worked a full month in his life? 904 Mr. Duncan: But, taking the next month you might find that particular maximum was paid to a man. The Chairman: Then, this is a theoretical maximum? Mr. Duncan : No, it is the amount of work that the railroad company furnishes the engineer and which the railroad com- pany thinks the engineer is capable of performing, under nor- mal conditions. An engineer has the option of either perform- ing what the railroad considers normal working hours and working days, or not. Exhibit 16 shows what he actually did receive. He may have received less than that which it was possible for him to earn under normal circumstances, because he did not work all the month for some reason or other. Mr. Stone: I simply ask the same question. I would like to have it answered by some one. Is it possible that no man -on the Erie Railroad has ever worked the full month! Mr. Duncan: Why certainly. Mr. Stone: Then, why didn't he get it? Mr. Duncan: Why, of course, he got it if we had taken the month in which he worked it. Mr. Stuart: I do not see what you are talking about — . about an engineer working a full month, or not working a full month. Suppose we elucidate these figures. Engineers on the Erie Road are like other engineers; they work as they please, as a rule. When the service is not irksome and does not re- quire all of the engineers we have, and in dull periods, they have tlje privilege of laying off. Some engineers do not work a full month at any time. Some engineers will lay off all winter. There is no rule about that. Mr. Stone : In order to shorten this, as I have no desire to prolong this session, I will ask the Board that they request the companies to furnish the payrolls, for three months, on each side of these maximum months that they show in this Ex- hibit 16, and then you can see the earnings of the men. Mr. Duncan: We will furnish that for you, Mr. Stone. The Chairman: I will refer that request to our Secretary and the statistical expert. Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Stone, do you wish it confined to the same man that they selected, for the purpose of this table? Mr. Stone : Yes, sir ; the same ten men that they selected, 905 for the purpose of this table. I want the payroll for three months on each side of the month selected. Mr. Stuart: TMs might be the cause, that they took a- month, as I understand it, a particular month, and got the ac- tual money paid to ten men. Now, in taking averages, the maximum and the minimum, they may not have included in them that particular month. That may be an explanation of it, but I do not know. As I said before, it is going to be very difficult to prove all these documents by me, because I do not pretend to know how they were gotten up. The Chairman : Mr. Duncan, I understand that these maxi- ma and minima that are on Exhibit 14, are not the amounts that actually have been paid, but the amounts that the men might have earned. But the amounts stated on Exhibit 16 are nctual earnings. Mr. Duncan: Actual earnings, with this further statement too, Mr. Straus, that the amounts on Exhibit 14, represent the minimum and maximum amounts which it is possible for the men to earn if they work the normal monthly time, as you might call it. That is, the railroad company say to a man: Here is a particular run. If you make that run during the month, or as much during the month as we think you can do it, that is what you can make. It is not hypothetical in any sense of the term- Mr. Stuart: Mr. Stone, I would like to ask you a question that might enlarge upon this. Mr. Stone: Certainly. Mr. Stuart: Assuming that in arriving at the maximum and minimum and the average, you should have taken the month of July, based on that being the time table and that being the run, that might show an average for a certain run higher than if you took a man 's actual payroll three months later under a different time table. That is possible. I do not say it is, but it can all be developed. Mr. Stone: I understand it is possible for an engine that is double crewed in a 31 day month, for a man to go out on the first day of the month and also run the 31st day of the month, and it might make a little change. But, what I should like to have is the man who compiled these figures to show to this 906 Board, or produce for this Board so they can check it, the ac- tual runs these figures were compiled from. If such runs are in existence on these roads, Mr. Chairman, we do not know it, and we have not, so far, been able to find them. Mr. Stuart: Well, we would be very glad, in speaking for the Conference Committee, to furnish you with absolutely all ■of that information. The Chairman: That has been referred to the Secretary and the statistical expert. Mr. Stone: One other thing, Mr. Chairman, if you will al- low me to inject at this moment, and that is, I think it is only fair for the Board to know that those periods of congestion when things are strained to the highest tension, men are worked al- most to the point of human endurance. The rest time is eight hours exactly, off duty, and no allowance given for preparatory time, and a man is driven to the limits. But, that only occurs once in two years, or only under the rush months, and no man could keep that up, and it is not fair to put it up, as the aver- age a man could make. It will only happen one month in the year, and he will perhaps lay off the next two months to rest up. Mr. Stuart: Is not an average yearly earnings a fair test? Mr. Stone : Yes ; an average yearly earnings is a fair test. Mr. Stuart: We are willing to rest on that, as far as the Erie Boad is concerned. Mr. Stone : There is one more question, Mr. Stewart, please- On Exhibit 19, sheet 5, I want to ask a little in regard to this mileage allowed. You show in column 3, exhibit 19, sheet 5 Mr. Stewart: I have it, sir. Mr. Stone: You say there, "Mileage allowed." Isn't it a fact that that mileage is not allowed unless the man has used up more than thirtjv miles after his arriving time, and then it is computed one mile "for each six minutes; isn't it a fluctuating allowance? Mr. Stuart: That is in the suburban passenger service? Mr. Stone: Yes. Mr. Stuart : I think so. Well, it is fluctuating to some ex- tent, and in other ways, it is not. There are certain conditions pertaining to each one of the suburban runs that are covered, 907 as you have mentioned it, and yet the condition is constant dur- ing a time table. Then, we have some conditions where, in the winter time, the engineer gets on his engine much earlier, in order to heat a train and those would only be constant during that period, and then, when the time tables are changed again, and the runns are all changed, the conditions would probably change. Some are constant and some are not. In answer to your question, some of those things may be constant during a time table, and some not. Mr. Stone: Isn't it a fact that one each of the suburban runs, you can hold a crew on duty without pay, thirty minutes after arrival! Mr. Stuart: Final arrival? Mr. Stone : On each trip. Mr. Stuart: We could hold them Mr. Stone: Isn't it a fact you do not allow any of this mileage allowance unless they have been on duty more than thirty minutes after arrival, on each trip,? Mr. Stuart : No, there is nothing in here that is a subterfuge, from the point of figures. I hope we have not included any theoretical earnings that the engineers would get. Mr. Stone : The reason I bring this out, Mr. Chairman, is the fact that this Column 3 is misleading, because unless a man is on duty thirty minutes after arrival, he does not receive any of this, and for each six minutes after thirty minutes, he receives one mile. Mr. Stuart: I am quite sure that the average was secured, .and there is no point in being unfair to the men in this matter. Mr. Chairman : Isn 't that corrected by the column to the left of it, the actual mileage made per day? Mr. Stone: That shows mileage allowed, and that is what the figures are based upon in the next column, in Column 3, and it is something that is not correct; it is misleading. Mr. Stuart: Well, it might be correct, Mr. Stone. There is a possibility that it might not be correct, but I think you will find it is correct. The Chairman: With your consent, I would like to refer -that to the statistical experts of the Board, for investigation. Mr. Stone: All right, sir. That is all I have to ask Mr. Stuart. 908 Mr. Duncan: That is all. By the way of further addition to your library, we have the regulations of the Pennsylvania Rail- road Pension Department, which I believe some member of the Commission asked for yesterday. Mr. JudsoU: We had that this morning? Mr. Duncan: No, you had the Relief Department; this is the Pension Department. If you would like to have it The Chairman : "We will be glad to have it. Our shelves are yet ample to contain all of these things. Mr. Duncan: Also the 26th Annual Report of the Pennsyl- vania Relief Department, if the Commission would like to have that. The Chairman: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: I would like to ask a question on that. Does that annual report show the number of personal injury claims that have been settled through the relief department, without litigation? Mr. Duncan: I cannot answer that. I have a copy here which you may examine yourself. Mr. Judson : Just take it for what it is worth. I understand that not only all matters which you offer and Mr. Stone offers, but all human recorded knowledge, is part of the reference li- brary of this Board. Mr. Morrissey: I also understand that Mr. Atterbury stated, while testifying the other day, that the operations of the Relief Department had absolutely no influence, or were in no wise used as an argument by the Pennsylvania Railroad, in respect to these proceedings. Mr. Duncan: That is true, Mr. Morrissey. I am merely offering these tables because I understood some members of the Board expressed a desire to see them. Mr. Shaw: We are not to understand that these offerings have the same character with reference to our deliberations as the exhibits which have been offered, but you are contributing as much as you can to our education, inasmuch as we are sitting here as a Board to determine these questions. Mr. Duncan : Yes. In that connection, we also have noticed No. 14, which relates to the decisions on the question raised by employes of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company in regard to regulations of the Pennsylvania Railroad Pension Department. 909 Mr. Stone: May I have copies of those? Mr. Duncan: We have copies of all of these for you, Mr. Stone. Now, in the interest of time, I might say we are offering, not for a part of your reference library, but for a part of the record, the statement of the Vandalia Railroad, relating par- ticularly, to the effect that the raise in the wages, or that the demands of the engineers would have upon the condition of the Vandalia Railroad; illustrating the effect the demands would have on a somewhat smaller railroad, supplementing the Coal & Coke Railway statement, in that respect. Mr. Judson: That is admitted to be a subsidiary road and controlled by the Pennsylvania? Mr. Duncan : Controlled by the Pennsylvania Railroad. Mr. Judson : I would suggest that Mr. Stone have an oppor- tunity to read that over, and ask any questions about it he de- sires. Mr. Stone: I take it for granted, Mr. Chairman, that it is the same story as the rest. Mr. Duncan: The Board understands that we are offering that, as a part of the record, to be printed with the record. Mr. Judson : Just as if he gave the statement, or read it. Mr. Duncan: Just as if Mr. McKeen had made the state- ment in the record. Mr. Judson: In the interest of brevity? Mr. Duncan : Yes. (Statement of the Vandalia Railroad Company is printed with the Exhibits as Railroads' Exhibit No. 127.) Mr. Stone : Do I understand that this will all be printed in the record? There are about twelve pages of tabulation here. The Chairman: I don't know, how has that been offered? Mr. Duncan : We do not care for the map. The Chairman : But I mean, this is for the Vandalia? Mr. Duncan : It is offered, — a statement of Mr. McKeen of the Vandalia Railroad. The Chairman: To be printed in the record? Mr. Duncan : To be printed in the record. The Chairman : Yes. Mr. Duncan : But not the map, though. The Chairman : That answers your question, Mr. Stone. 910 Mr. Judson: Are not these tables already printed and al- ready in the black book? Mr. Duncan: No, they are not. They are some separate tables. The Chairman : Are they not perhaps, in the records of the Interstate Commerce Commission 1 Mr. Duncan: No. The Chairman: They have not been printed already? Mr. Duncan : They have not been printed. Mr. Eidlitz: I think it is safe enough to let them go in. Mr. Judson : Yes. Mr. Morrissey : I would like to ask if there is any one here representing the Detroit, Toledo & Ironton Eailway? Mr. Duncan: There was earlier in the proceeding. Is not Mr. Johnson the receiver of that company? Mr. Morrissey : He is, I understand. Mr. Duncan : He was here last week, but he is not here this week. Was there some information which you wanted from him? Mr. Morrissey : Yes. Mr. Duncan : We will be glad to produce him. His case wa? so hopeless, in the sense that he was not even earning operating expenses, that we did not feel that we would like to impose upon the Board testimony from that kind of a railroad. Mr. Morrissey: I would like to inquire the significance of the appointment of Mr. Johnson, as Receiver. Mr. Duncan : I cannot answer that. Mr. Morrissey: Does it indicate that the control of the road has passed to interests controlling the Norfolk & Western? Mr. Duncan : I cannot answer that. Mr. Morrissey : And, that it will probably be reorganized by the Norfolk & Western? Mr. Duncan: I cannot answer that, but I should think it needed reorganization, on some basis. Mr. James McCrea: Perhaps I can answer that. The ap- pointment of Mr. Johnson has no significance whatever, as I understand it, beyond the fact that he was selected and requested to go there on account of his ability. Neither the Norfolk & West- ern, nor the Pennsylvania, either directly, or indirectly, or in any way, have any interest in the road now, or prospectively. 911 Mr. Morrissey: Mr. Johnson is the son of the president of the Norfolk & Western? Mr. James McCrea : Yes. Mr. Duncan: We are also offering in evidence a statement of Mr. J. H. P. Hughart, the Vice President and General Man- ager of the Grand Eapids & Indiana Bailway, a statement in re- lation to the financial situation of that company, and the effect- that the increases in wages would have upon it. I happen to have only one copy of it, Mr. Stone. It will go in the record and you can read it. It is purely a financial statement. Mr. Shaw: Is that an independent railroad, or is it associ- ated with a larger and controlling system, or company? Mr. Duncan: I understand it is operated independently and has a separate set of officers and employes, but I do not know what relation it may have to the Pennsylvania Company. The Pennsylvania Company may be interested in some of its securi- ties. That is a matter that will be taken care of in the statement that we are preparing at the request of Mr. Van Hise, showing" the intercorporate relations of these railroads. Mr. Shaw: Yes. 912 GRAND RAPIDS AND INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. Statement of J. H. P. Hughart, Vice-Pres. & Gen. Mgr., to the Board of Arbitration Made July 26, 1912. I have examined carefully the accompanying statements prepared by Auditor Methany. On the basis assumed, these statements are correct. It seems proper to say, however, that neither the present demands of the engineers nor the collateral increases which will certainly follow a concession to them will be granted except under compulsion in some form, as the result will certainly be bankruptcy within a short time, and the company will not go into this voluntarily. We will, of course, abide by the results of the present arbitration. It is idle to say that other demands will not be made, as we already have them from the firemen as a body, and from various other classes of labor. Our previous policy would encourage all employees to expect and demand proportionate benefits, as this has been our practice in every wage increase in the last ten years (1903-1906-1910), with the sole exception of 1911, when only the engine, train and yardmen were benefitted. In determining the proportion of earnings fairly due to the labor which in part creates them, the conditions of each individual property must be con- sidered. The Grand Rapids and Indiana seems to be peculiarly unfortunate. Taxes have increased over 1140,000, or 153%, since 1901. The cost of meet- ing various governmental requirements, many of them without the slightest gain in safety or efficiency, are large and seriously .increasing. The property has always been kept in safe condition for operation, but financial conditions in the last few years have compelled us to restrict expenditures from earnings to such as seemed absolutely necessary to secure safety, and we have been unable to make normal annual renewals. As a consequence we have now come to a time when large increase in maintenance expenditures must be made to insure safety, on a basis of 18 years life for rails, 13 for ties, and 10 for ballast. We have also fallen behind in replacement of engines and passenger train cars, and on the basis of 20 years life must for the next five years more than double our expenditures for this purpose in the last five, These expenditures are absolutely necessary to permit safe and reason- ably prompt movement of traffic. The large sums needed to improve physical conditions, produce economics in operation and secure and care for increased traffic require new money. You can appreciate the prospects of success which a road now barely earning 4.2% upon its funded debt of 913 $10,125,000, or $23,520 per mile, and paying no dividends upon its stock issue of $13,450 per mile will meet with in any effort to secure additional capital especially if burdened with the threatened increases in wages. We fell $96,000 short of earning our interest in 1910, when the maintenance- expenditures were a little more liberal than for several preceding years, and by the strictest economy and limitation of renewals to what seemed absolute requirements for safety, were only able to show a profit of $126,000 for 1911, without paying one cent to the stockholders in dividends. It will, therefore, be apparent that without considering collateral increases to other labor, to grant the demands of the engineers alone, which on the basis of work per- formed in 1911, increase our costs more than $25,000 per annum, would seriously increase our burden. Could we make moderate advances in rates, there might be some hope for the future. As a matter of fact, in the last ten years the earnings per ton mile have decreased 20%, and per passenger mile 10%, and the Inter- state Commerce Commission in 1910 refused our request for a reasonable increase in freight rates. That it was reasonable would seem to be indicated by the fact that it would only have increased our revenue by about $225,000,, whereas if the rates of 1901 had been operative in 1911, our net revenue would have been larger by over $700,000. As an illustration of the threatened increase in burden of governmental requirements, it may not be amiss to state that the City of Grand Rapids has for years been demanding a separation of grades at street crossings, and a commission that has been studying the situation reports that the probable cost will be over $5,000,000, without considering abuttal damages or cost of elevating or replacing stations, yards and industrial tracks. The cost to the Grand Rapids and Indiana could not be less than $2,000,000. The City of Kalamazoo, the next largest upon its line, is now demanding separation of grades, and has a commission working upon the plan. It is often charged that an undue proportion of the revenues are devoted to additions to the property and dividends to the owners. This certainly cannot be said of the Grand Rapids & Indiana, as for the last six years less than 2% of its gross revenue has been used for additions, and the stockhold- ers have received but 2 34% per year on their investment, we having paid no dividends since April 1910. For the Grand Rapids and Indiana, I desire to urge, first, that the data furnished abundantly prove that its engine men are already fairly paid. Second, that it is absolutely unable to bear the proposed increase and those which will follow collaterally, and still perform its duty to the public. A large area of Western Michigan is still partially developed. For its suc- cess, it is practically dependant upon the service rendered by two roads, the 914 Pere Marquette, and the Grand Rapids and Indiana. The first named is al- ready in the hands of the receivers, the second soon will become unable to pay the interest upon its bonds, if the wage increases are granted. It cer- tainly seems that this rapidly growing population, and its already consider- .able investment is entitled to consideration, as well as the roads and their employees, to the end that development may not be unduly hampered by inability of the roads to render proper service. The Grand Rapids and Indiana is a North and South road, hemmed in on each side by the Great Lakes, and not in the course of general interchange of traffic between East and West. Its prosperity must largely depend upon the development of the local territory it serves. Its operations are con- ducted under many varying conditions, climatic, physical and social. It has been endeavored to meet these conditions in regulations and rates of pay, and the harmony which has always existed between the company and its men would indicate that it has been fairly sucessful in the endeavor. Standardization would either rob the men laboring under the more arduous conditions of their just reward, or give to the others pay for which they do not and cannot give just returns in labor. I trust sincerely that the facts shown in the various statements before you will convince your honorable body that the demands of the engineers ^re under all circumstances, unjust to the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railway Company. 915 GRAND RAPIDS AND INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY INCOME ACCOUNT FOR THE CALENDAR YEARS 1901 TO 1911 INCLUSIVE YEAR 1901 Operating Revenues $2,871,782.66 Operating Expenses, 2,079,238.26 Net Operating Revenue $ 792,544.40 Less— Taxes, 92,717.96 Operating Income, $ 699,826.44 Add— Other Income, 886.61 Gross Income, $ 700,713.05 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, $391,155.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,300.00 Appropriation for Additions and Better- ments, 164,600.00 562,055.00 Profit for Year, 138,658.05 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1900, $278,299.75 Deduct: Old Accounts written off, .$ 889.98 2% Dividend Paid, 115,820.00 116,709.98 161,589.77 Balance, Credit to Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1901, $ 300,247.82 916 YEAR 1902 Operating Revenues, $3,196,738.18 Operating Expenses, 2,314,372.35 Net Operating Revenue, $ 882,365.83 Less— Taxes, 99,985.88 Operating Income, $ 782,379.95 Add— Other Income, 2,089.99 Gross Income, f 784,469.94 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt, $390,927.50 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,104.17 Payment on Car Trust Cars, 7,559.36 Additions and Betterments, 128,700.00 533,291.03 Profit for Year, $ 251,178.91 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1901, $300,247.82 Deduct : Old Accounts written off, .$ 225.53 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 173,955.53 126,292.29 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1902, $ 377,471.20 917 YEAR 1903 Operating Revenues, $3,401,654.25 Operating Expenses, 2,514,328.58 Net Operating Revenue, $ 887,325.67 "Less-^Taxes, 190,367.61 Operating Income, $ 696,958.06 Add— Other Income, 1,875.00 Gross Income, $ 698,833.06 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, $391,085.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 27,990.98 Advances to C, R. & Ft. W. R. R. for In- terest, 16,086.29 Additions and Betterments, 81,515.20 522,677.47 Profit for Year, $ 176,155.59 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1902, $377,471.20 Deduct: Old Accounts written off, .$ 130.75 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 173,860.75 203,610.45 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1903, $ 379,766.04 918 YEAR 1904 Operating Revenues, $3,302,346.59 Operating Expenses, 2,485,056.77 Net Operating Revenue, $ 817,289.82 Less— Taxes, 195,430.36 Operating (Gross) Income, $ 621,859.46 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt, $391,085.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 30,197.63 Advances for Interest on C, R. & Ft. W. R. R. Bonds 14,600.60 Additions and Betterments, 441,883.23 Profit for Year, $ 179,976.23 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1903,$379,766.04 Deduct: 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 206,036.04 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1904, $ 386,012.27 919 YEAR 1905 Operating Income, $3,609,833.05 Operating Expenses, . . 4 2,722,868.19 Net Operating Revenue, $ 886,964.86 Less— Taxes, 188,126.17 Operating (Gross) Income, $ 698,838.69 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, 1394,022.50 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars 29,359.97 Advances for Interest on C. R. & Ft. W. R. R. Bonds, 10,868.28 Appropriation for Additions and Better- ments, 100,000.00 540,250.75 Profit for Year, $ 158,587.94 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1904, $386,012.27 Add: Amount realized in settlement of old ac- counts 31,507.94 $417,520.21 Deduct: 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 243,790.21 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1905, $ 402,378.15 920 YEAR 1906 Operating Revenues, $3,900,604.84 Operating Expenses, 2,937,345.67 Net Operating Revenue, $ 963,259.17 Less— Taxes, ." 197,288.68 Operating Income, $ 765,970.49 Add— Rents received, 16,123.98 Gross Income, $ 782,094.47 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt, $406,460.78 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 65,693.61 Advance for Interest on C, R. & Ft. W. R. R. Bonds, 3,220.95 Appropriation for Additions and Better- ments, 14,556.58 495,931.92 Profit for Year, $ 286,162.55 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1905, $402,378.15 Deduct : Interest paid on delin- quent Michigan Taxes, $ 66,279.78 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 240,009.78 162,368.37 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1906, $ 448,530.92 921 YEAR 1907 Operating Revenues, $4,149,694.34 Operating Expenses, 3, 183,263.30 Net Operating Revenue, $ 966,431.04 Less— Taxes, ... 188,093.05 Operating Income, $ 778,337.99 Add— Rents Received, 22,960.52 Gross Income, $ 801,298.51 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, $411,275.01 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 43,015.74 Advances for Interest on C, R. & Ft. W. R. R. Bonds, 23,508.02 Hire of Equipment, 17,583.84 Additions and Betterments, 65,221.62 566,604.23 Profit for Year, $ 234,694.28 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1906, $448,530.92 Deduct: Old accounts written off,. .$ 22,425.27 3% Dividend Paid, ...... . 173,730.00 196,155.27 252,375.65 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1907, $ 487,069.93 922 YEAR 1908 Operating Revenues, $3,498,148.17 Operating Expenses, 2,592,689,06 Net Operating Revenue, $ 905,459.11. Less— Taxes, 206,382.23 Operating Income, $699,076.88 Add — Rents and Interest received, 28,673.75' Gross Income, $ 727,750.63 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt, $412,675.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 26,928.52 Advances for Interest on C.,R.& Ft. W.R.R. Bonds, 19,649.88 Hire of Equipment 21,788.89 Miscellaneous, 1,227.77 Additions and Betterments 52,389.97 540,660.03 Profit for Year, $ 187,090.60- Credit to Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1907 $487,069.93 Deduct: Old Accounts written off, . .$ 17,630.83 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 191,360.83 295,709.10 Balance to Credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1908, $ 482,799.70^ 923 YEAR 1909 Operating Revenues, $3,918,371.25 Operating Expenses, 2,918,954.37 Net Operating Revenue, $ 999,416.88 Less— Taxes, 207,881.09 Operating Income, .$ 791,535.79 Add — Rents and Interest Received, 36,203.70 Gross Income, $ 827,739.49 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt, . $412,675.00 Interest on Unfunded debt, 6,000.00 Payments on Car Trust Cars, 26,108.22 Advances for Interest on C, R. & Ft. W. R. R. Bonds 28,818.04 -i Hire of Equipment, 75,125.82 Miscellaneous, 11,636.36 Additions and Betterments, 40,900.64 601,264.08 Profit for Year, $ 226,475.41 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1908, $482,799.70 Deduct: Old Accounts written off, . .$ 50,235.76 3% Dividend Paid, 173,730.00 223,965.76 258,833.94 Balance to credit of Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1909, $ 485,309.35 924 YEAR 1910 Operating Revenues, $4,125,419.02 Operating Expenses, 3,334,657.19 Net Operating Revenue, $ 790,761.83 Less— Taxes, $239,240.65 Outside Operations— Deficit, 2,387.51 241,628.16 Operating Income, $ 549,133.67 Add— Rents and Interest Received, 41,396.58 Gross Income, $ 590,530.25 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, $417,775.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments Account Car Trust Cars, 59,696.53 Advances for Interest on C.,R. &Ft. W.R.R. Bonds 28,797.86 Hire of Equipment, 94,382.23 Miscellaneous, t 2,702.53 Additions and Betterments, 92,670.23 702,024.38 Loss for Year, . , $ 111,494.13 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31, 1909, . $485,309.35 Deduct : Old Accounts written off, . . .$ 1,203.43 \y 2 % Dividend Paid, 86,865.00 88,068.43 397,240.92 Balance, Credit to Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1910, $ 285,746.79 925 YEAR 1911 Operating Revenues, $4,003,664.15 Operating Expenses, 3,084,954.12 Net Operating Revenue, $ 918,710.03 Less— Taxes, $234,142.25 Outside Operations— Deficit, 4,052.46 238,194.71 Operating Income, $ 680,515.32 Add — Rents and Interest Received, 37,006.69 Gross Income, $ 717,522.01 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt, $422,675.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt, 6,000.00 Payments account Car Trust Cars, 36,599.40 Advances for Interest on C, R. & Ft. W.R.R. Bonds, 19,561.84 Hire of Equipment, 67,305.56 Miscellaneous, 2,600.00 Additions and Betterments, 35,984.10 590,725.90 Profit for Year, $ 126,796.11 Credit to Profit and Loss, December 31,1910. .$285,746.79 Deduct: Old Accounts written off $1,405.49 $284,341.30 Balance, Credit to Profit and Loss, Dec. 31, 1911, $ 411,137.41 926 Income Account of the GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY YEAR ENDING JUNE 30, 1911. Operating Revenues, $4,060,533.26 Operating Expenses, 3,241,875.56 Net Operating Revenue • • • ■ 818,657.70 Outside Operations 3,899.23 Total Net Revenue 814,758.47 Taxes 239,211.03 Operating Income. '. 575,547.44 Other Income 53,579.65 Gross Income $ 629,127.09 Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt. ...... .\ $422,675.00 Car Trust Payments ,. 45,484.62 Interest on Unfunded Debt 6,000.00 Hire of Equipment 103,203.63 Advances to C, R. & Ft. W. R. R 33,364.77 Additions and betterments 63,722.13 Sundry Accounts 2,600.00 Rents Paid 1,296.31 688,346.46 Deficit 59,219.37 To this deficit add amount of increase asked by engineers 27,116.64 Balance deficit 63,336.01 To this deficit add amount of increase which would follow in other classes of service 185,729.85 Balance, loss which would have occurred if total increase had been in effect during year ending June 30, 1911 272,065.86 927 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY Net Operating Revenue adjusted to conform to Classification prior to the year 1906, Taxes, and Per Cent, of Operating Revenue absorbed by Taxes, for 10 years, 1902 to 1911 inclusive. Net Operating Revenue Add Rents DEDUCT Hire of Equipment Add'l wt.Rail " Trk Appl. Impr. Frogs & Sw. Impr. Over- G'd Crsgs. Impr. Station Bldgs. Net Opr. Rev. adjust- ed to con- form to Class'n prior to 1906. Amount of Net Operat- ing Revenue absorbed by Taxes Per Ct. 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 W09 1910 1911 882,365.83 887,325.67 817,289.82 886,964.86 963,259.17 966,431.04 905,459.11 999,416.88 790,761.83 918,710.03 1,170.53 22,960.52 28,045.61 25,878.79 31,068.60 28,931.94 17,583.84 21,788.89 75,125.82 94,382.23 67,305.56 39,072.20 10,644.88 882,365.83 887,325.67 817,289.82 886,964.86 964,429.70 971,807.72 911,715.83 950,169.85 688,376.00 869,691.53 99,985.88 190,367.61 195,430.36 188,126.17 197,288.68 188,093.05 206,382.23 207,881.09 239,240.65 234,142.25 11.3 21.5 23.9 21.2 20.5 19.4 22.6 21.9 34.8 24.6 928 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY Per 1911 1901 Increase Decrease Cent Operating Revenue . . $4,032,596.09 $2,871,782.66 $1,160,813.43 40.4 Operating Expenses. . 3,162,904.56 2,079,238.26 1,083,666.30 52.1 Net operating income 869,691.53 792,544.40 77,147.13 9.1 Taxes 234,142.25 92,717.96 141,424.29 152.5 Net operating income after taxes 635,549.28 699,826.44 $64,277.16 9.2 Operating Ratio (ex- clusive of Taxes) . . 78.4% 72.4% 6.0% Earnings per ton per mile (cents) .65 .81 .16 19.8 Earnings per passen- ger per mile (cents) 1.91 2.12 .21 9.9 Operating Revenue, operating expenses, and net operating revenue for 1911 are adjusted to agree with classification of 1901. Had average rate per ton mile of .81 cent of 1901 prevailed in 1911, the freight revenue in 1911 would have been $2,912,857 Instead of, as it was 2,344,511 Decrease account of decreased average rate $568,346 Had average rate per passenger mile, of 2.12 cents of 1901 pre- vailed in 1911, the passenger revenue in 1911 would have been . . $1,523,152 Instead of, as it was 1,369,587 Decrease account of decreased average rate 153,565 Total decrease in freight and passenger revenue account of decreased average rates $721,911 929 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. Income Account for year 1910, Including an Estimate of the Increase asked for by the Engineers,, and the Collateral Effect from Increases to Other Employes, also- the Result of Operations for that year had such Increases been in effect. Operating Revenues $4,125,419.02. Operating Expenses $3,334,657.19 Add Increases in Wages 213,431.64 3,548,088.83 Net Operating Revenue $577,330.19 Less: Taxes $239,240.65 Outside Operations— Deficit 2,387.51 241,628.16 Operating Income $335,702.03 Add: Rents and Interest received 41,396.58- Gross Income $377,098.61. Deduct: Interest on Funded Debt $417,775.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt 6,000.00 Payments account Car Trust cars 59,696.53 Advances for Interest on CR&FtW Bonds 28,797.86 Hire of Equipment 94,382.23 Miscellaneous 2,702.53 Additions and Betterments 92,670.23 702,024.38 Loss for year would have been $324,925.77 Credit to Profit & Loss, December 31, 1909 . $485,309.35 Deduct: Old accounts written off ..$ 1,203.43 \y 2 % dividend paid..:... 86,865.00 88,068.43 397,240.92 Balance to credit of Profit & Loss December 31, 1910, would have been $72,315.15 930 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. Income Account for year 1911, Including an Estimate of the Increase asked for by the Engineers, and the Collateral Effect from Increases to Other Employes, also the Result of Operations for that year had such Increases been in effect. Operating Revenues $4,003,664.15 Operating Expenses $3,084,954.12 Add Increases in Wages 199,656.65 3,284,610.77 Net Operating Revenue $719,053.38 Less: Taxes $234,142.25 Outside Operations— Deficit 4,052.46 238,194.71 Operating Income $480,858.67 Add : Rents and Interest received 37,006.69 Gross Income $517,865.36 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt $422,675.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt 6,000.00 Payments account Car Trust cars 36,599.40 Advances for Interest on CR&FtW Bonds 19,561.84 Hire of Equipment 67,305.56 Miscellaneous 2,600.00 Additions and Betterments 35,984.10 590,725.90 Loss for year would have been $72,860.54 Balance to credit of Profit & Loss December 31, 1910, had increased wages been in effect from January 1, 1910 $72,315.15 Deduct: Old accounts written off 1,405.49 70,909.66 On this basis, instead of having a credit to Profit & Loss December 31, 1911, of $411,137.41, there would have been a debit of $1,950.88 931 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. Income Account for Year 1912, (July 1 to December 31 estimated) Including an Estimate of the Increase asked for by the Engineers, and the Collateral Effect from Increases to Other Employes, also the Re- sult of Operations for that year had such Increases been in effect. Operating Income $4,171,198.00 Operating Expenses . , 13,289,752.00 Add: Increases in "Wages 209,108.00 3,498,860.00 Net Operating Revenue $ 672,338.00 Less: Taxes $230,142.00 Outside Operations— Deficit 4,000.00 234,142.00 Operating Income $ 438,196.00 Add: Rents and Interest received 37,006.69 Gross Income $ 475,202.69 Deduct : Interest on Funded Debt $422,675.00 Interest on Unfunded Debt 6,000.00 Payments account Car Trust cars 28,383.00 Advances for Interest on CR&FtW Bonds . . 25,500.00 Hire of Equipment 55,306.00 Miscellaneous 2,600.00 Additions and Betterments 75,069.00 615,533.00 Estimated Loss for year $ 140,330.31 Add: Loss as shown by Profit & Loss account December 31, 1911 1,950.88 Total Estimated Loss to December 31, 1912 $ 142,281.19 932 The Profit and Loss Account at December 31, 1912, shows that the Company would be bankrupt at_ that date had the increase in wages of Engineers and other employes been in effect since January 1, 1910. Had the increases been in effect since January 1, 1911, the credit to Profit & Loss Account at December 31, 1911, would have been reduced from $411,137.41 to $211,480.76, and at the end of 1912 the estimated credit would be only $71,150.45. In view of the fact that shareholders received no return upon their investment in 1911, and will receive nothing in 1912, it is plain to be seen that this Company cannot pay any increased wages unless freight rates are advanced sufficiently to compensate for such increases. 933 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. The property of the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad Company was sold under foreclosure of its second mortgage, and this company purchased and took possession of same August 1, 1896. Capital Stock Issued for sundry indebtedness of G. R. & I. R. R. Co . . . $1,500,700.00 For General Mortgage 5% bonds of G. R. & I. R. R. Co. on payment of 5% assessment 4,291,000.00 Total capital stock Per mile of road, 430.5 miles First Mortgage Bonds The new company took the property subject to the first mortgage of Second Mortgage The new company issued a second mortgage to secure $5,000,000.00 of bonds bearing interest at 2% for the first year, 3% for the next two years, and 4% thereafter. There were issued at par in exchange for a like amount of 6% bonds of G. R. & I. R. R. Co In exchange for coupons, unpaid coupons of first mortgage bonds In exchange for car trust obligations In exchange for loan secured on boats and one-third of capi- tal stock of Mackinac Transportation Company $5,791,700.00 $13,450.00 $5,375,000.00 2,975,000.00 612,745.00 294,784.78 79,470.22 Total issued account reorganization $3,962,000.00 Leaving in the Treasury to be used for additions and better- ments $1,038,000.00 Of these, there have been sold for purpose named : In 1905 $250,000.00 1906 188,000.00 1907 100,000.00 1910 250,000.00 Total Total second mortgage bonds outstanding Balance in Treasury $250,000.00 Total bonded debt Per mile of road, 430.5 miles Total stock and bonds Stock and bonds per mile of road $788,000.00 $4,750,000.00 $10,125,000.00 $23,520.00 $15,916,700.00 $36,970.00 934 GRAND RAPIDS & INDIANA RAILWAY COMPANY. Since August 1, 1896, there has been charged to income account for additions and betterments $3,272,334.89 Included in this amount are charges for safety appliances to freight cars, pay- ments for freight cars renewed under car trusts, increased weight of rails, etc., not properly chargeable to capital 239,109.70 Leaving balance which might properly have been charged to capital of $1,033,225.19 Since August 1, 1896, bonds have been sold to pay for additions and betterments which have been charges to capital, as follows: In 1905 $250,000.00 1906 188,000.00 1907 100,000.00 1910 250,000.00 Total bonds sold. . . 788,000.00 Total charges to capital, and to income ac- count properly chargeable to capital since August 1, 1896, for additions and betterments 1,821,225.19 Total amount of bonds available for ad- ditions and betterments after purchase of property by new company 1,038,000.00 Balance which must be either have been charged to income or the improvements abandoned altogether 783,225.19 Had the company been confined to the sale of bonds to provide for additions and betterments, no improvements to the property could have been made since 1906, as the expenditures for additions and betterments from 1897 to 1906 inclusive, slightly exceeded the amount of bonds avail- able for that purpose. 935 J. A. McCeea was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan : What is you name ? Mr. J. A. McCrea : J. A. McCrea. Mr. Duncan : And, you are connected with the Long Island Railroad? Mr. J. A. McCrea: General Manager. Mr. Duncan : How long have you been general manager of the Long Island Railroad? Mr. J. A. McCrea : Since last November ; I was general sup- erintendent, from January 1st, 1906. Mr. Duncan: Now, Mr. McCrea, will you very briefly, tell the Board, in your own way, the condition of the Long Island Railroad, with particular reference to the effect that this in- crease of wages will have upon it ? Mr. Judson : Has not that all been set out in this exhibit ? Mr. Duncan : If you please^ we might expedite matters by offerng a statement that Mr. McCrea has prepared and which he probably would follow in the examination. I happen to have only one copy of that statement, but it might be available to Mr. Styme, for examination. Mr. Judson : I suggest that he just submit his statement and then ask him any questions explanatory of it, or in addi- tion to it, that you desire. Mr. Dunoan: You might hand it to Mr. Stone, and let him ask any questions he desires. The Chairman : I think it might be well to hear Mr. McCrea. It is not long, is it? Mr. J. A. McCrea : No, I did not intend to read it all, but use- the figures from it. Mr. Duncan: What are some of the points you would like to bring out? The Chairman: And, we do not wish to hurry you, Mr. Mc- Crea. Take your time. Mr. J. A. McCrea : To appreciate the inability of the Long- Island Railroad to make a general increase in wages, which gen- eral increase is sure to follow in ease an increase is made to the engineers, you must understand, briefly, the financial conditions. No dividend has been paid by the Long Island Railroad, since- 936 1896. The railroad has approximately, 90 miles of main line, in the City of Greater New York, and recently it has been called on and is still being called on, constantly, for large capitaliza- tion expenditures, due to the location of the road in this very congested territory. These capital expenditures are for the eli- mination of grade crossings, electrification and the general ex- pansion of operating facilities. It is true the traffic of the road has grown very rapidly, but it has not grown fast enough to keep up with the increase in fixed charges. In the year 1911, we showed a deficit of $457,955.86, in meet- ing operating expenses, interest and taxes. That was an in- crease of, approximately, $129,000 over the deficit of the year before. I think I can best explain the situation, for the last eleven years — Mr. Van Hise : In stating that deficit which exists, do you count in expenditure, the additions and betterments for that year ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: The interest ah them. Mr. Van Hise: But, not the additions and betterments themselves, the expenditures for additions and betterments. Mr. J. A. McCrea : No, only the fixed charges, only the in- terest on what we have spent. In comparing the result of the operation of 1911, with 1900, we find that operating expenses during the eleven years have increased 172.8 per cent; total wages have increased 181.9 per cent; the number of employes in service 87.2 per cent, while the train mileage is only increased 75.8 per cent ; fixed charges, including interest and taxes, have increased 170 per cent. Now, to offset all this, our gross revenue has only increased 166 per cent, in the eleven years. I think to appreciate the increase in our fixed charges, I should say that in 1911, our fixed charges were $3,774,750, an in- crease of $2,377,147, in eleven years. Taking all this into account, it is very difficult to see how we possibly can make any increase in wages. Mr. Duncan : Now, Mr. McCrea, in that connection will you explain, very briefly, to the Board, the difference in the service performed on your railroad compared with some other railroad with reference to length of haul, the ability of the men to get "home .at night, and so forth. 937 Mr. J. A. McCrea : The conditions are absolutely different from any other road I know of, in the country, although they are similar in a part of the service, on practically every road that does a suburban service. The road has a mileage of, approximately, 400 .miles. Two-thirds of our revenue is derived from passenger, and one- third from freight. We have the densest passenger traffic of any road in this group of roads represented here, yet the aver- age number of miles of each passenger hauled is about 15 ; the average haul on every ton of freight is about 25. And, it must be remembered that in the low average haul, that, while the rate per mile is about the same — maybe a little bit higher than some roads — we have the terminal expense at each end of that 15 miles, which is what makes it a very difficult service. The longest run we have, of any train, is one division of 117 miles Mr. Duncan: Now, what rates do you pay on your road to your engineers and your other classes of employes as com- pared with other roads, calling your particular attention to the wages of your trainmen, because it has been stated by Mr. Stone, or on his side of the case, that the trainmen's wages were standardized. Mr. J. A. McCrea: Well, in 1910, when the settlement was made on other roads, as I had agreed with our committee to settle on practically the New York Central basis — but when I came to put the conditions of that settlement up to the men, that is, the conductors and trainmen, they did not want them.. So, the result is, we did not have a settlement on a standard basis. We offered them two propositions that could best be de- scribed by saying, one on a basis of 120 miles, 12 hours for a day's work, and the other 100 miles and ten hours. However, in each case the rates to our yards was one cent less than the going rates in harbor, as that has alays been allowed the Long Island on account of our financial disability. We have been cutting corners wherever we could do it. Mr. Morrissey: Do you consider from that, that the wages of conductors and trainmen on the Long Island Railroad are higher than the general standard in the territory? Mr. J. A. McCrea: Well, Mr. Morrissey, that is pretty hard to say. They are not higher, but the conditions are dif- 938 ferent. The only way you could tell that, would be, by taking the total earnings for a year. Our object in offering them 120 miles, 12 hours, was en- tirely on account of the character of our service. We cannot make a day in ten hours ; our men cannot do it and they know it. Years ago — well, not so long ago — in 1906, when I came here, we had the 12 hour day, but we had a provision that any interval between actual trains that men handled, that was 2y 2 hours long was reduced in making the 12 hours. So a man might be considered as working on the basis of 12 hours, yet it would be 16, or 17 hours, from the time he started in the morn- ing, until the time he quit at night. That was not a fair propo- sition, and it made long hours for the men, but it was a condi- tion of the service that had grown up with thie road. We have been trying right along to correct that, and are working to that end. Mr. Judson: Do your men all live at their homes! Mr. J. A. McCrea: The men all live at their homes, and in order to show that, I took the time table of last winter which was the one that was in effect about six months, and analyzed the 123 scheduled runs. We found that 118 crews were at home every night. That means that they could sleep at home and have their breakfast and their supper there. Of these, there were 47 crews that were home even for dinner; that is, they lay at home and had their dinner there. And, there were 23 addi- tional crews th;at, while their run was away from home, at the dinner hour, they had transportation furnished them and they could dead-head heme if they wanted to, and get their dinner. And, the five crews that were away from their home terminal at night, they alternated; they were away from home every other night. Mr. Shaw: Five out of a total of 123? Mr. J. A. McCrea: 123. Mr. Judson: Does that condition exist on any other rail- road ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I do not know, but it certainly exists in the suburban service, in that portion of the road that has suburban service. We are distinctly a suburban road. Now, in the present 939 time card, we have 60 assigned runs in electric service. I am just giving this to illustrate what the conditions of service are. The actual working hours of the 60 runs, figures out 259 hours, an average of 4.31 hours per man. Now, in spite of the fact that these men work on a ten hour day, 68 per cent, of those crews make overtime. I don't know whether I have made myself clear on that point, or not ; in other words, to get a day 's work out of them, we have to pay for more than ten hours, because we haven't the work for them within the limits of ten hours. The commuters come to town in the morning and they do a day's work, and then they want to get home at night. While our crews have plenty of time, as can be shown by only 4 hours and 31 minutes actual service, we have to pay for overtime, in order to get these people back home, at night. The Chairman: Give us an illustration. Take an engine- man, when he comes on in the morning and give us an illustration of that. I do not quite understand you. Give us an actual illus- tration, taking a single case. Mr. J. A. McCrea : A man will come to work in the morning, say he will leave Patchogue, about seven o'clock and will get to Long Island City, I think, about The Chairman: Give it as near as you can. Mr. J. A. McCrea: The mileage is, we will say, 56 miles. He will get there probably at 9.20. He will lay there until four o'clock, or he may lay there until five o'clock — I will take an extreme case — and he will get back home at 6.30. Now, he has been away from home 11 hours and 30 minutes, and he has made overtime to the extent of 12 miles — 56 miles, and the round trip is 112 miles, or one hour and 30 minutes and he will be paid for one hour and 30 minutes, because it is equal to more than the 12 miles. Mr. Judson: What would he be paid, for that overtime, ap- proximately ! Mr. J. A. McCrea: He is paid $4.15, plus 4iy 2 cents, plus 20 odd cents — about $4.76. His actual time in service has not been over four hours. Mr. Shaw: Does he perform any duties of any kind in the interval between 9.30, in the morning and 5.00, in the evening! Mr. J. A. McCrea : Not unless he is paid for it. He is paid 940 either on the basis of continuous time, or an extra call. In the summer season, they very frequently use these men on extra calls, because we frequently need them. In summer, we earn as much as a million and a half dollars a month, in July, and in February go down to a minimum of $700,000. These are only approximate figures, but the entire traffic is unbalanced. We have been building up the road and doing everything we could to improve its conditions. We have improved our employes' condition, but it has been very difficult to keep our improvements up and keep up with the wage increase. The Chairman: Do you keep up with the crews in the slack season that you are compelled to have in the rush season; are you able to do that, or do you attempt to do so! Mr. J. A. McCrea: We cannot furnish employment for a man all the year. When he first comes, — I haven't examined it very carefully in the last year or two, — but it used to be the case that when a man came,- — he worked in the summer, for about two summers and then laid off in the winter — they did all sorts of things in the winter. Mr. Morrissey : How often do you change time cards ! Mr. J. A. McCrea : We have four a year. Mr. Morrissey : With each change of time card do you work out a new programme of runs for enginemen and trainmen! Mr. J. A. McCrea : Oh, yes ; there is a run sheet that goes with every time card. Mr. Morriss'ey : And, in that you figure to secure from each employee as nearly a day's work as you can, and take care of the service, do you not! Mr. J. A. McCrea : Oh, absolutely. That is what we are here for. Mr. Morrissey : So that the run you illustrated is not a fair indication of the average run on the Long. Island Railroad! Mr. J. A. McCrea: No, it was only an instance that illus- trated the question that Mr. Straus asked. I think the fact that we get our men home so much, at night, and the fact that in 1911, we ran 41,000 freight trains and only 27 of them exceeded sixteen hours, and out of the 27, there were 14 due to causes over which we have no control, only 13 trains were obliged to tie up through bad management, if you please, or overloading, or some- thing of that kind, — it shows our hours are not excessive. 941 Mr. Morrissey : What is the length of your freight train run? Mr. J. A. McCrea : It varies. We haven't any freight train that makes 100 miles. Mr. Morrissey: "Would it not be an extraordinary circum- stance that would require a freight train to use over sixteen hours in going 100 miles? Mr.. J. A. McCrea: No, not with our service, because it is all local service. Particularly, in the summer, when we have a very heavy passenger traffic, it is, hard for a freight train to get over the road. It is due to the work that they have at the stations, which prevents them from getting away from the sta- tions and making the run. Mr. Shaw: Your present difficulties, of course, are offset a good deal by your prospects, *are they not, because with your superior terminal arrangements and connections, you can solidly count upon the great future benefit of the increase of population and of business in your territory, besides which, you do not anticipate any competition in your territory f Mr. J. A. McCrea: We do not anticipate any competition, and we sincerely hope we will be able to pull out of the trouble we are now in, at some time in the future. How near that is, I cannot tell. Some of us are very optimistic and some of us very pessimistic. Mr. Judson: You haven't found your business down to Man- hattan Beach has increased very much! Mr. J. A. McCrea : No, it has decreased very rapidly. The Chairman: I was the only passenger on the train that came up. Mr. Judson : I take it your business has to meet the compe- tition of the trolley service in some localities, in suburban busi- ness. Mr. J. A. McCrea : Yes. We had a very good business down here, too, until the time the Brighton Beach extension of the Brooklyn Rapid Transit was made, and that took most of it away. Of course, we had a great setback when the race tracks were put out of business. We had a very large revenue, a yerv large traffic to and from the race tracks,! simply mention that, as something we had to overcome. Mr. Judson: So the railroad business may suffer from the growth of moral sentiment. 942 Mr. J. A. McCrea : I want to add something as to the electric service. I really cannot go away without saying something ahout that. The Chairman: Do so. Mr. .J. A. McCrea : We probably have the largest multiple unit operation in the country. We have been operating for about seven years, and our position from the start has always been that we take care of our engineers and make motormen out of them. There has never been any question about that. I have heard the statement here that we will always have en- ginemen to make motormen out of. I think we will for a few years, but I can see the time coming when we will not have enough enginemen to make motarmen out of; we" will have to go beyond that and take the firemen, particularly if the en- ginemen do not want to leave their engines and go on the motors. Mr. Judson: Do you look to the ultimate substitution of electricity, for all your steam service? Mr. J. A. McCrea : No,, within a big radius, though, I think within a radius probably of 25 miles around New York City. In 1905 we took the position with the men that we had given them a tool with which it was easier for them to work, that they could perform service easier than they could with a steam locomotive, and we at least expected them to turn out increased work, namely mileage. And on that basis we have been paying our men practically the same as a steam engineer, but expected more mileage. A great deal has been said about the danger of the multiple unit train. In seven years, operating a very dense traffic, we have only had one motorman hurt, in an accident. That was the result of a collision, where he was thrown down on the floor and had a splinter run in his hand. That is the only case I could find any record of. We have had the average number of burns and cases of men being shocked, all of which has been tabulated, but none of them have been serious. As a matter of fact, in eleven years, operating about four and a half million locomotive miles a year, we have only had two engine- men killed. We have only had two cases where steam men who have come into electric service went back to steam service, and in these two cases, to the best of my knowledge, it was more 943 convenient for them to go back on steam runs on account of where they lived. Preparatory time necessary for the crew to begin work in multiple unit service has been very fully covered, and I want to tell the Commission of cases where we change crews on electric trains, where one will end a day's work and another begin at a station stop of one minute. That is how long it takes that man to begin his work. We have other cases where we bring a train out with five or six cars and cut it in two at a station and the train that is cut in two, the head end, will go to one terminal and the rear end to another terminal, with a' delay of not more than two minutes. Now, I ride nearly daily in a motor cab of a multiple unit train, and I have never felt very much alarmed riding there. A great deal has been said about the motorman watching for sig- nals. There is absolutely no condition in railroad service where a man has such a chance to watch for signals, as he has in a multiple unit cab. He has his controller and air brake, and there is nothing in the cab to distract his attention from look- ing out ahead. He does not have anything to look at. There is nothing to make him look down, from the view of the track. We have had our proportion of grade crossing accidents, probably more than our share, yet in no case have we had a motorman injured. From my personal knowledge of the de- tails of the operation of the Long Island Railroad, for the past six years, I know that every condition under which the engineer works has been improved. Our hours are shorter, that is, the working day of the men is shorter. The motive power six or seven years ago was in a deplorable condition and is as good as any motive power in the country, today. Our double track has been extended, relieving the engineer of responsibility of train orders. Automatic block signals have been installed, junction points and outlying switches that were unprotected have all been protected by interlocking signals — I say all, nearly all, a great many of them. Dangerous grade crossings have been eliminated. Many of our outlying terminals have been rebuilt and conveniences put there to add to the comfort of the average engineer. The roadbed has been improved, mak- ing easier riding engines. The completion of all these double 944 tracks and additional automatic block and train order signals and interlocking signals lias made it possible for a great many of our men to work from one end of the day to the other and never see a train order; in fact, no doubt some work a month, without seeing a train order. I have no doubt some work a month without seeing a train order. Our rates of pay are fair. I have taken the June payroll, and I find the following averages that I will give you. These averages were compiled with the idea that every man was in- cluded who worked when he was called on to work. Some men made a few days and laid off, that is from necessity, or reason •-of their own. Mr. Van Hise : Is it the average of, the entire line? Mr. J. A. McCrea : This is the average of the company's pay- roll. I would be glad to furnish the actual payroll, which I have not here, but will be glad to turn it in. Passenger service, . $164.20 per month. Mr. Morrissey: What month? Mr. J. A. McCrea : This is the month of June, 1912, right down to date. Freight service $152.45. Work train service $128.70. Yard service $134.85. Electric service, motormen, $152.40. This shows a fair rate of pay, and high, considering the lack of expense and the degree of comfort the men work under. Mr. Morrissey: One moment. Do you pay more overtime during the summer months than during the fall and winter months ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: Not proportionately, I should say. I could not answer that question, Mr. Morrissey, but I do not think' we pay more proportionately to the mileage run. The Chairman: How would that wage which you have just read off, compare with the wa°e received by those same men, if you please, during a winter month, say November, or January? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I think it would be a little less in winter. The Chairman : A little less in winter. Mr. J. A. McCrea : I cannot tell you how much, because in winter we have less mileage, we have less trains, of course, be- ing a summer road more, or less, and we dividle the runfs ur between the men. We make the men divide up with each other. 945 If they had it all their own way, the oldest men would take it all. Mr. Eidlitz: Would it be much trouble for you to furnish this Board a list of the ten poorest paid engineers and the ten highest paid engineers that you have on your books'? Mr. J. A. McCrea : For what period? Mr. Eidlitz : For one year. Mr. J. A. McCrea : Just the way they come on the roll! Mr. Eidlitz : Yes. Of course, that will give us a little closer idea than all these varying averages and all that sort of thing. That gives you the wages that the poorest man gets paid and that the highest man gets paid. Mr. J. A. McCrea : Of course, we have men that will lay off three, or four, or five weeks at a time, from preference, Would you include them? Mr. Eidlitz: No, I mean a man who has a reasonable oppor- tunity to try to maintain his seniority and works when he has the opportunity. Mr. Morrissey: If that table is to be useful would it not necessarily, have to be confined to the regular men? Mr. Eidlitz : Yes. Mr. Morrissey: An occasional trip by an extra man would not indicate anything. Mr. Eidlitz : Men who have assigned runs, is what I mean. Mr. J. A. McCrea: Mr. Eidlitz, that will be pretty hard, be- cause some of those fellows will lay off maybe for six weeks: he wants to do something else. In the winter we are very glad to have our men lay off, because it enables us to give work to more men. Mr. Duncan: Suppose you included among the lowest paid men those who worked fairly regularly through the month an'" who have not been laying off for six weeks, or if they have laid off during the month, give the reason why they have laid off. Mr. Stone : Might I offer a suggestion here ? Why not sub- mit the payroll itself? It is not a very complicated matter, and you can see the whole thing. Mr. J. A. McCrea : Yes, we could submit the payrolls for th ~ 12 months. That will only be 24 payrolls. The Chairman: That woidd not be complicated? 946 Mr. J. A. McCrea : Not at all. We would be very glad to do it. Mr. Eidlitz: That would be entirely satisfactory. The Chairman : That would be entirely satisfactory. Mr. Eidlitz : I did not want to put the road to that trouble. Mr. Morrissey: Does your form of payroll indicate regu- lar time and overtime? Mr. J. A. McCrea: Yes, I think it does;. I am not positive; they have changed our road so much lately; I think it does. Mr. Morrissey: Well, would not that information be neces- .sary in order to have — Mr. J. A. McCrea : Well, then, we will put it on. It maj take us a little time to get that up, but we will do it. The Chairman: Are you through, Mr. McCrea? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I am through. Mr. Duncan: That is all, unless Mr. Stone has some ques- tions. The Chairman: Mr. Stone. CROSS-EXAMINATION : Mr. Stone : You spoke of the necessity of making a 12 hour -day, for the men, instead of 10. Is it not a fact that this really means a longer clay for the men, owing to your peculiar ser- vice ! Mr. J. A. McCrea: The men would have a longer day at all event. We have to take care of the traffic, and if the traffic will not move in ten hours, the men will have to stay out longer than ten' hours. Now, we guarantee them 120 miles, instead of 100 miles per day. That was an advantage that the conduc- tors and trainmen seemed to appreciate. Mr. Stone: You also get the advantage of 12 hours service, instead of 10 hours service, do you not, by the settlement? Mr. J. A. McCrea : Certainly, because if they had taken the Trunk Line proposition of 100 miles, 10 hours, they would not have been home every night; we would have been obliged to apply the Trunk Line conditions to a suburban road in order to take advantage of the agreement. I say take advantage — Mr. Stone: That means you practically lengthened their hours of service and the mileage both, by that settlement. 947 Mr. J. A. McCrea: That is right. Mr. Stone: In order that the men could be at home. Mr. J. A. McCrea: That is right. Mr. Stone: And, keep them from breaking up their home? Mr. J. A. McCrea: That is right. Mr. Stone: You based your statement there on the winter schedule of those 123 runs. Why did you take the winter sched- ule? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I simply took the winter schedule be- cause that was the schedule in the past year when it was in effect the longest of any one of our four schedules. Mr. Stone: The Long Island road is largely a summer road, is it not? Mr. J. A. McCrea: For six months of the year our traffic is very heavy. Mr. Stone: Would that same percentage hold good in the summer time, some of the men being at home? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I think it would hold practically the same. Mr. Stone : Now, about your June rate, as compared with your winter rate, would they probably run as high as the aver- age rate, or do your men work longer hours in summer? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I do not understand the June rate. Mr. Stone: The June average rate of engineers, does it run higher in the summer than in the winter? Do the men work more hours? Mr. J. A. McCrea: We pay the same rate in summer as in winter. Mr. Morrissey: Do you mean their earnings, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : I mean their earnings. Mr. J. A. McCrea: Oh, their earnings. Mr. Stone : Do they work longer hours in summer than in winter ? Mr. J. A. McCrea : I think they will earn more money in the summer because we have more work for them. There is no question about that. In the winter we have to divide the work up among more men. Mr. Stone: In this swing run you speak of, where a man comes from Patchogue and comes into Long Island City 948 and lays there from 10 :30 till 4 :00, is it not a fact, that time is all deducted and you can keep him on duty 12 hours? Mr. J. A. McCrea: No. Mr. Stone : Is not the swing time deducted ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: It used to be, but not any more, since 1910. Mr. Stone: Have you not the privilege during that time of using the man in pushing, or anything else? Mr. J. A. McCrea: No. Mr. Stone: Do they not sometimes make additional trips? Mr. J. A. McCrea: They do, and under our agreement, if a man is notified before he leaves his engine, he gets — it is called continuous service, and he is paid on the basis of continuous service. If he has left his engine and has to go back and get on his engine again, it acts as an additional call — it is the same as an additional call. And, under certain conditions he is paid half a day and under certain conditions he is paid a whole day. I do not remember the details. Mr. Stone: Well, the fact remains that every day an en- gineer guarantees to you, either 120 miles, or 12 hours, if you can get it out of him by so handling your work. Mr. J. A. McCrea : Our agreement with the engineers is 100 miles, ten hours ; with the trainmen it is 120 miles, and 12 hours — trainmen and conductors, I mean. Mr. Stone : Do they not give you 130 miles, for a day ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: In electric service? Mr. Stone : In electric service. Mr. J. A. McCrea: They give us 130 miles, for $4.75, in electric service, as against 100 miles, for $4.15, in steam service. Mr. Morrissey: How did you arrive at that differential fox electric service? Mr. J. A. McCrea : That was a compromise. Mr. Morrissey : Did you appoint a committee similar to that stated by Mr. Atterbury, and accept their report? Mr. J. A. McCrea : No, it was — I came to Long Island just after the electric service was installed, and there was a differ- ential then, of 15 miles, and a day in electric service was 130 miles, and we have stuck to that. The only difference — I wanted to keep the 130 miles in electrical service and we guaranteed "bhem an increased minimum day. That is how the $4.75 came in, as against the $4.15. 949 Mr. Stolie: Is it not a fact that it is more economical for the Long Island Road to keep the 130 mile basis, on account of the service you have? Mr. J. A. McCrea : I hope so, I tried to make it that way. Mr. Stone : That is what I wanted to bring out. Mr. J. A. McCrea : There is no question about that. Mr. Stone : You stated that only two of your men have gone hack to steam. Are there passenger trains for these men to go back on, in the steam service, if they wanted to — all the men in electric service? Mr. J. A. McCrea: No. Mr. Stone: They would have to go bac/k on freight, would they not? Mr. J. A. McCrea: Unfortunately, there is not enough freight for all of them to go back on. Mr. Stone: There is no freight for them to go on, is there? Mr. J. A. McCrea : A great many of our motormen are men who could take almost any passenger train, a number of them. Two or three of them, on account of the absence of physical labor, continue to work motors because they prefer it, and we did not feel, in one case with one man, that he could stand up under the service on an engine, yet he is a very good motorman. Mr. Stone: You stated when you had exhausted your en- gineers, you didn't know where you would get your motormen from. Isn't it a fact that you would promote them from firemen? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I didn't say I didn't kndw where we would get them. Mr. Stone: You said there would be no more engineers. Mr. J. A. McCrea : I said there would be no more engineers. Mr. Stone: You still promote firemen on the Long Island Railroad, to engineers? Mr. J. A. McCrea: Yes. Mr. Stone: That will be your supply to draw from, will it not? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I think so. Mr. Stone: You spoke about paying for preparatory time, where one crew relieves another on the platform, with only a minute's delay. Isn't that clearly taken care of in the article we submit, and there would be no .charge ? Mr. J. A. McCrea: I don't recall the article. I am simply 950 bringing that out, as an illustration that preparatory time was not necessary in multiple unit service. Mr. Stone: We do not make any charge for it, where they are relieved, in our request, under the conditions you speak of. That is the point I wanted tq bring out. That is all, Mr. Chair- man. Mr. Judson : How many more witnesses have you, Mr. Dun- can? Mr. Duncan: I think we have one or two more witnesses. We will finish this afternoon, Mr. Judson. The Chairman: We will now take a recess until two o'clock. (Whereupon, at 12.50 P. M., an adjournment was taken until 2.00 P. M.) AFTER RECESS. 2.00 P. M. The Chairman: Mr. Duncan. Mr. Duncan : Our next witness is Mr. James McCrea, Presi- dent of the Pennsylvania Railroad. James McCrea was called as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Duncan : Mr. McCrea, will you please state to the Com- mission, as briefly as you can, the present conditions confronting the managements of the railroads, which, in your judgment, should receive the consideration of the Commission in determin- ing the question that has been presented to it for determination! Mr. James McCrea : Well, first, let me say that it is a great pleasure to me that this question could be considered by .a Com- mission made up as it has been, by men whose determination will receive great weight. It is very much more satisfactory, I think, to both parties concerned, than the ordinary old form of arbitra- tion. I think the Arbitrators have before them certain questions which are fixed and on which decisions have to be made. But, 951 I think that in their consideration they should go farther ; they are entirely able to do it; and that the country and those that are interested are expecting that the situation, as a whole, should be treated on, very fully. I am satisfied that that is looked for- ward to, with such expressions of views as they can give, and which, after determining the other questions, should be made as clear as possible. The railroads are in this position : Their rates are con- trolled by government regulations. They are at a standstill, — in fact, are being constantly reduced, in small ways from time to time, as the result of specific hearings ; while their expenditures, what you may call the fixed expenditures, in the way of taxes, special provisions made by special legislation, whether calling for the safety and comfort of the public or what they deem right, are constantly increasing and are burdens over which they have no control. I do not complain of many of them, but at the same time, with your sources of income controlled, and many of your fixed expenditures likewise being controlled, the question of additional cost of labor is a most serious one. There has been presented before you here, the various figures, which I shall not attempt to go into ; but I think with sufficient clearness to make it evident to you that the margin is constantly narrowing, be- tween the income and the outgo. There are three things, therefore, that the railroad manage- ments have to consider: First : How are they going to provide the additional capital that is required to make the improvements that the public de- mand and which the necessities of giving proper transportation require ? That can only be done, that money can only be secured from the public, from the investors, and, therefore, you must keep up your earnings sufficiently to show a credit that will result in investors supplying you with the money that is needed; in other words, to make your securities marketable. There have been a number of ways in which the demands have been met here- tofore; maturing indebtedness has been met by issues of new indebtedness at lower rates, and the differences have been saved. That day is past, so far as we can see. Most of those securities, practically all of them, have been paid off. We will take, as an example, the Pennsylvania Railroad. We have this year, ten millions of dollars worth of bonds falling due, on which we are 952 paying 3y 2 per cent. They cannot be renewed under any cir- cumstances, less than 414 to 4%. And, in 1916, there are eighty- six millions of 3y 2 per cent., coming due in the same way. Be- sides that, that is only merely renewals of old capital, but there must be new capital that must be raised to make the improve- ments required for safety and proper service. Now, that brings it right down to the question of the credit of the company. The credit of the company is exactly like the credit of the individual ; one man can secure all the funds that he wants at any time, either on his own name, or by putting up collateral; another man's credit is sometimes so poor that even collateral will not help him out much,, unless it is very good. Now, the basis of that credit is what you have over, at the end of the year, after you have made a reasonable return on the capital already invested. That is because, when you -want to borrow money, or sell your stock, those who want to buy, or -are going to buy, want to know there is enough margin to carry you over to pay the return on the money they are advancing, until it can be made to pay for itself. To-day, we are spending a great deal of money, on which we can never expect to get an adequate return, really any re- turn, or, if we do, it is so small, or so indefinite that it is very hard to describe just what it is. And, all of that is naturally known, and the investor is looking to be sure that he is going to get a return on what he has. Besides that, the cost of living has gone up to the individ- ual, the investor, just as it has to other people, and they feel , the same necessity for an increased income that those whose in- come is dependent upon their labor feel. It has reached this condition, that if an advance in wages took place, we must receive an advance in rates, or have some compensation, or some way of recouping ourselves. In the latest decision of the Interstate Commerce Commis- sion, in the language that was used, we are not encouraged to feel that we are going to get that from the Commission. It is certainly a very unknown factor. But, assuming that you are going to do that, assuming that perhaps they are going to give it tous, it will mean that much more money contributed by the public, for the services that the transportation companies give, 953 and the question is going to be — as very fairly put by Mr. Prouty — the question is going to be whether the wages paid are fair, or if they are unfair, whether they will be justified in allowing an advance of rates which are paid by the public, be- cause the transportation company is paying wages that are too high for the services rendered. Therefore, I think that that side of the question should receive your most serious consideration, not only in rendering' your decision, but x in the test of that which goes with the deci- sion, the explanations or opinions. Coming from a body of men like yourselves, they will carry great weight, not only with the public and the railroads, but with the employes themselves. ■- The other questions have been dealt with so fully before you, and so much has been said that I do not know that there is any necessity for me to go further. I merely want to im- press you with the fact that the railroad companies under pres- ent conditions, cannot stand an increase in their costs of opera- tion without compensation of some form. If we cannot get that, or if it is uncertain, we cannot pay it. Mr. Duncan: That is all of Mr. McCrea, unless some mem- ber of the Board has something to ask him. Mr. Van Hise: There are just one or two questions that I would like you to answer, Mr. McCrea. It has been the policy, as I understand it, of a considerable number of roads, to put back into the business a very consider- able portion of their income. Mr. James McCrea: Yes, sir. Mr. Van Hise: And, I do not mean, by the way of fully providing for depreciation and repairs, but in the way of that class of account that is called additions and betterments. Some roads, I have been informed, whenever they have made a divi- dend — we will say a dividend of six per cent, upon the common stock, by way of illustration, have put back into the business in the way of improvements and betterments, an equivalent amount. For instance, if the amount that went to the stock in a given year were ten million dollars, another ten million dollars would go into the improvement of the property. In a case of that kind, do you regard the income that the stockholder receives as measured by the six per cent. ? 954 . Mr. James McCrea : I should. I think every well managed road that I know of has been handled on that basis, but not quite perhaps as strongly as you have put it, with this provi- sion : You must, of course, in determining the policy of what is right for each particular road, take into consideration how its , capitalization is made up; that is, in bonds and stock. You might have one road where one-third of it was bonds and two- " thirds of it was stock. Now, to say that for every cent that is given to the stockholders, there should be a cent put into the property, might be very erroneous, as compared with a road three-fourths of which was bonded indebtedness and one-fourth stock — on that general principle. And we naturally come back to our own road. I think the minimum of safety for the Penn- sylvania Railroad, for instance, is to put back into the prop- erty half as much as it pays out in dividends. Mr. Van Hise: For all of its capitalized account? Mr. James McCrea : On its capitalized account, yes. It is not a theoretical question, because from a theoretical standpoint you can prove almost anything ; it is only the result of long ob- servation of the roads that have been successful. They have fol- lowed that policy, and they have done that without recapitalizing. Mr. Van Hise : I understand that point. Mr. James McCrea : In other words, without that margin, you can not get the investor to put his money in that. There are too many other ways to invest money, which return a very much better yield to the stockholders than the railroad companies. They won't put their money in. Today it is very much more difficult to raise money than it was five or ten years ago, becauste the range of investments that are paying highly, particularly the industrial, if you may put it that way — they are having the com- mand of the market, where the railroads have not. Take the Pennsylvania Railroad, for instance. We have about 75,000 stockholders. Their holdings, per person, are some- where between 200 and 300 shares, and probably two-thirds— I can get the figures exactly, if you want them— probably two- thirds of those are women and estates. In New England, in many of the towns there, the banks and trust companies are not allowed to buy a bond of a railroad company that is not paying four per cent, to its stockholders, and there are many restrictions 955 of that kind. The day has largely gone by when the railroads were what you may term speculative. Most of the larger ones are now held by investors, as is the Pennsylvania Kailroad, as I have explained, and those investors won't buy your securities unless they see a margin of safety, or what they think is a suffi- cient margin of safety, ahead of them. Mr. Van Hise: I would not presume to criticise the policy of the railroads that put back into their properties a part of their income. Indeed, it would seem to be no more than the part of wisdom; but that does not quite answer my question. My question was, in addition to paying a dividend upon the stock, of six per cent., to the stockholders, and using your own figures, and adding to the capitalized account, three per cent., which goes for additions and betterments, whether the six per cent, represents the full increment, the- full dividend, the real dividend that the stockholders receive. Mr. James McCrea : Yes, I think so. If I may give my rea- sons for that — the measure of that is what the investor values your stock at, what he values his own investment for, if he is going to buy, or what he may pay for it when he comes to buy, and -I think the very best illustration of that is to say that a railroad is merely manufacturing transportation. We might he making pig iron, or might be a wholesale grocery store, or we might be a department store ; and I think that all business that I know of meets exactly the same condition, in exactly the same way. Mr. Van Hise: I would not, for a moment, dissent from that statement, or any of the other of these statements you have made, but I am afraid I should dissent from your categorical answer, but I won 't debate it. Mr. James McCrea : Of course, there is always room for differences of opinion. I can only say this about it ; I have spent a great many years of my life trying to sell securities, and sell- ing securities to the public, to enable us to build up the road that we have. The road has paid, variously. In say, the last twelve years, it has paid five per cent., then it went to six per cent., and then, it went to seven per cent., and with the last in- crease in wages, at the time of the action of the Interstate Com- merce Commission, we were forced to drop it one per cent., and we are now paying, and have been paying, six per cent. 956 To-day, our stock is selling at 124. It lias been up to 150. There has been a shrinkage. There are so many questions, how- ever, that enter into those things, that I can only say that these questions are not those of theory, or what ought to happen — the fe^ow that has the money, and whose money you want to get, to enable you to help these propositions, he does not look at it from any other standpoint than what he thinks his net re- turn is ging to be ; he don't have to buy, and he is just willing to pay so much. Mr. Van Hise : In what respect, if the ten millions of dollars from increased income, went to improving the value of the prop- erty, to additions and betterments, leaving an ample amount for depreciation of securities — in what respect is that situation dif- ferent from the situation, so far as the property is concerned, if ten millions of dollars in bonds were sold, and the betterment of the property was made out of the sale of those bonds, and the bonds capitalized? Mr. James, McCrea : Why, you would have an increased fixed charge on your property for all time to come, which, in the pres- ent instance, would wipe out the margin you have, as the saying is, for a rainy day. Merely the natural care and provision that a conservative man, in a conservative management, handling other people's money, is bound to take. Mr. Van Hise: But, in the two cases, when the ten million dollars comes from the dividends, and when the ten million dol- lars comes from the stock and bonds, because such methods are pursued, the additional value of the property is the same! Mr. James McCrea : You mean if you were to appraise the value 1 Mr. Van Hise : I mean the additional value of the property, as a property. Mr. James McCrea: No, your property is only worth what will oome from an earning standpoint. If you have a piece of property that cost you ten millions of dollars, and if it cannot make an earning on more than five millions of dollars, it is only worth five millions of dollars, and that is all vou can get out of it. Mr. Van Hise: Suppose the expenditure is justified, how does the fact that the money comes from income, rather than 957 from additional capital, that you take in from the outside, in- fluence the value of your property? Mr. James McCrea : Why, it simply means— )I don't know whether I quite catch your difference — in the one case, if you measure your property by the physical value what it cost, that is one thing, but if you measure it by what it can earn, that is another. Now, if the Pennsylvania Railroad had capitalized the sums of money that it has put into its property from time to time, out of income, under the present conditions, we would not be paying three per cent on that stock — not three per cent, but four per cent. Mr. Van Hise: My question is wholly irrespective of any theory. I just wanted to know the difference in the value of the property because of the fact that the same amount of money came from the different sources. Mr. James McCrea : Well, my only answer to that is that part qf it is capitabzed and the other is not, that is all; and that not capitalizing it establishes the credit which enables you to make the property what it should be. Mr. Van Hise : Do not misunderstand me on that, for I said I am not criticizing for a minute — Mr. James McCrea: I am speaking broadly, you know. I am perfectly willing to say that is so with every kind of busi- ness I know of, whether it be a department store, or rolling mill, or a railroad. The Chairman: Have you any questions, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : No. The Chairman: Is there anything else on your mind that you would like to inform us on, Mr. McCrea? Mr. James McCrea : I think not, sir. I would be very glad to answer any questions I can. The Chairman: Because we are ready to receive all the enlightment and information that you gentlemen can give us. Mr. James McCrea: No, sir. If I have succeeded in im- pressing you with the brqadness of the situation and the ques- tions that are to be met, and the necessity for having your ex- pressions made very full and clear, I think I have accomplished the result. The Chairman: I think you have done that. (Witness excused.) 958 The Chairman: Have you anything further, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: That concludes the railroad side of the case. The Chairman: Mr. Stone, have you anything further? Mr. Stone: Do I understand you have completed, on the railroad side, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan: Yes. Mr. Stone: I wish it was possible to get somebody from the Pennsylvania Lines, East, so that I could bring out some more in regard to their operation. Mr. Atterbury spoke of it, in a general way. I thought I understood from you, Mr. Duncan, that you intended to put on the General Road Foreman of en- gines. Did I not hear something of that kind, yesterday? Mr. Duncan: We have a great many Pennsylvania Rail- road employes here and if there is any one from any particular department you would like to have called, probably he could come here. Mr. Stone: No. I should like to offer, in rebuttal, a couple of witnesses, for a few minutes only. The Chairman: Very Well, Mr. Stone. Mr. Stone: Mr. Packer, I believe you were Chairman of that committee Mr. Atterbury spoke of yesterday that made this agreement, in regard to the working conditions on the elec- tric line. I would like to have you take the stand. The Chairman : If there is any one on the side of the rail- roads, or on the Pennsylvania Lines that you want to get any information from, which you were not able to obtain, I will make the request of Mr. Duncan and see whether we can meet your wishes in the matter. Mr. Duncan: We would be glad to furnish them with a witness. Mr. Stone: I thought Mr. Hudson was here. I saw him here the other day, and thought perhaps he was going on, but it is all right, it does not matter. Mr. Duncan: We will produce any witness Mr. Stone wants. Mr. Hudson is here. Mr. Stone : I wanted to ask him some questions in regard to operation, especially on the Western Division. The Chairman: Would you like him to take the stand? Mr. Stone : Yes, I should, if you please. The Chairman : Mr. Hudson, please take the stand. 959 W. L. Hudson was called as a witness, and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Hudson: I am Road Foreman of Engines, Pittsburgh Division. Mr. Stone : You are from the Pittsburgh Division, Mr. Hud- son; you are familiar with it? Mr. Hudson: Yes. Mr. Stone: Have you more than one kind of signals on the Pittsburgh Division, block signals, I mean. Mr. Hudson: We have the manual controlled block signals and the automatic signals. Mr. Stone : How many days do your local freights work a month ? Mr. Hudson: Barring holidays, 26 days, or the number of working days in the month. Mr. Stone: What is the rate on the Pittsburgh Division,, between Pitcairn and Altoona? Mr. Hudson: $5.82. Mr. Stone: $5.82? Mr. Hudson: Yes. Mr. Stone: 30 days in the month, what would a man earn? Mr. Hudson: 30 times $5.82; it would be in the neighbor- hood of one hundred and seventy some odd dollars, I presume. Mr. Stone: On these local runs, what would a man earn? Mr. Hudson : He gets the same rate per day. Assuming he works 26 days a month or the working days in the month, it would be 26 times $5.82. Mr. Stone : Or, somewhere in the neighborhood of $151 ? Mr. Hudson: Something like that. Mr. Stone: Under normal conditions do your engineers make more than 26 days a month? Mr. Hudson : You mean in through freight service, between Pitcairn and Altoona? Mr. Stone: Through freight service. Mr. Hudson: We aim to keep our pools adjusted so they will make not less than 26 days a month. In the winter time when freight is heavy they may make more than that. Mr. Stone: Do thev make more than thirty? 960 Mr. Hudson: No, I don't think they could, Mr. Stone, make more than 30 days a month ; that is, and take the desired rest. Mr. Stone: In Exhibit 14, submitted by the companies, if I figure it correctly, it shows $208.65, on freight, for that di- vision, and if I estimate correctly, that would take 36 days. Mr. Hudson: I am not prepared to say, as to just what service that man was in, but there would have to be some over- time in order to make that rate in freight service. Mr. Stone: That is the point I wanted to bring out— -that it would be necessary for a man to work more than full time — overtime, in order to make it. Mr. Hudson : Except on our Altoona-Allegheny City runs, a 31 day month, with the mileage that they get and the prepara- tory time and so on, it might make that. I had forgotten that. Mr. Stone : Is it not a fact that the through runs on the Pittsburgh Division would not receive an increase per trip, un- der the request we make here? Mr. Hudson: I believe the rates are now high enough to take care of that. Mr. Stone : Are there not times on the through runs on the Pittsburgh Division, when train crews or engine crews are de- layed for many hours in the yard after the time marked to leave f Mr. Hudson : Owing to the fact that we handle a great many preference freight trains, and that those trains are delivered to us by connecting divisions, and owing to the further fact that it is necessary to move these trains as promptly as possible after they are received, it sometimes results that the crews are delayed by reason of the train not reaching us at the time ex- pected, and by the further reason that it is sometimes neces- sary to cut out shop cars and in some instances, make repairs to the cars, in order to get them moved on a particular train and in order that the freight may make the desired connec- tions. Mr. Stone: Well, is it not a fact that the road men are required to pull the trains up from the classification yard into the departure yard, and then cut off, until the car inspectors and air inspectors get the train ready to leave? Mr. Hudson: That applies to those particular trains I just spoke of, the fast freight trains. 961 Mr. Stone: This was formerly done by yard crews, was'. it not? Mr. Hudson: To the best of my knowledge, it never was done by yard crews, so far as it pertained to fast freight. It is done by yard crews at the present time, so far as it pertains • to slow freight. Mr. Stone: Is it not a fact that fast freight crews are de- layed in the departure yards at both Altoona and Piteairm awaiting their trains'? Mr. Hudson: Under circumstances such as I cited. It is also a fact that those same crews will complete their day, in- cluding this delay in the yard, ordinarily in eight hours, and many times in considerably less than eight hours. Mr. Stone: What is the length of the division! Mr. Hudson : Between Pitcairn and East Altoona, about 103 miles. Mr. Stone : Are the engineers on your division required to take train orders over the telephone! Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir; in some instances; not all. Mr. Stone: Who takes them in other cases'? Mr. Hudson: Well, in the great majority of cases, on the- Pittsburgh Division, train orders are delivered to the conductor and engineer by the telegraph operators. On some of our 'branch lines, where we use the telephone for transmitting train orders, ordinarily the conductor takes the orders. If there was no conductor, however, in charge of the engineman, the en- gineman would be obliged to take the order. Mr. Stone: In that case he acts as operator, conductor, engineer, all three, does he not? Mr. Hudson : Yes, sir, he would take the order over the tele- phone, write it down, and repeat it back to the train despatcher. Mr. Stone: An unattended block station, with a light en- gine, would the engineer be required to get permission to use- the block ahead? Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Also be obliged to report clear the block be- hind? Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir. Mr. Sto^e: Thpt is. in addition to his duties as engineer, running the locomotive? 962 Mr. Hudson: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : Do your local trains on the Pitcairn, Cone- maugh, Pittsburgh, G-reensburg service make much overtime! Mr. Hudson: I tbink not at the present time. We have .shortened the Mr. Stone: Under normal conditions, do they? Mr. Hudson: I would say no, under normal conditions. Mr. Stone: Do your yard engines on the Pittsburgh Divi- .sion work every day! Mr. Hudson: The majority of our yard engines do, yes, work every day. Mr. Stone: Are they double crewed or single crewed! Mr. Hudson : They are double crewed, whenever we can pos- sibly double crew them. Mr. Stone : What rate do they pay ? Mr. Hudson: We pay 43.5, I think it is, on the larger. en- gines, and 41 on the smaller; perhaps it is 41.5 and 43. Mr. Stone: 43.5 and 41, I think is right. Mr. Hudson: I think that is correct. Mr. Stone : On a 30 day month, what would be his earnings! Mr. Hudson: Practically all of our engines in yard service are paid twelve hours a day, and that would be something over $4.00 a day. I think that our yard men make in the neighbor- hood of $135 to $140 per month. ' Mr. Stone : The exhibit, I might add for your information, for the Western Division, shows $186.82. Mr. Hudson : That is true, Mr. Stone, also. We have crews working on the yard basis, in the coke region, where I have known them to run over $200 a month. Mr. Stone: That is the coke runs! Mr. Hudson: In one part of the service in the coke region; yes, sir. I might add that a part of the service performed by those crews is paid for on a trip basis. They will receive a five and a half hour trip rate for probably a two hour service. The balance of their service is on a yard basis, or shifting basis. The reason I state that is not to create the impression that these men are working sixteen hours a day. for they are not. Mr. Stone : They are not working six, but the high rate is due to the fact they are paid road rates for a part of it! 963 Mr. Hudson: Yes. Mr. Stone: Then, is it fair to classify it in the switching- service, and show it as a high rate, in switching service ? Mr. Hudson : By reason of the fact that the majority of the service is switching service, I believe it is classed as switching service. Mr. Stone: You mean by that that the largest number of hours of the day is in switching service ? Mr. Hudson : Yes, sir. For instance, a man may be on duty twelve hours, and, ten hours of it is put in in switching service, and the other two in making his road trip. Mr. Stone: The fact remains, Mr. Hudson, if a man was in legitimate switching service, he could not earn that much, working twelve hours a day, could he ? Mr. Hudson : No, he could not. Mr. Stone : I think that is all I care to ask. The Chairman: Would you give us an idea — probably it has been stated, but I have not got it clear in mind — how would you define switching service? Mr. Hudson: It usually refers to service that includes the classification of cars, the making up of trains, and work of tiiat kind in the yards. This particular switching service that we spoke of is at a small terminal on the southwest branch, where there are some mines and coke operations, where the men work on an hourly basis, instead of a trip basis, for the reason that it would be a very difficult matter to establish an adequate trip basis, for the service performed. In connection with this shifting service that they perform, they usually perform some road service, for which they are paid on a trip basis. Mr. Morrissey : Do you have any transfer service on the Pennsylvania Railroad ? Mr. Hudson : I do not think, as considered by this request — what they refer to as transfer service. Mr. Morrissey: Well, do you have any service that might be termed belt line service! Mr. Hudson: We do not, on our division, Mr. Morrissey.. Mr. Morrissey: How do you class service from one yard to another, where the crews use the main line and work under road orders and regulations. 964 Mr. Hudson: We would class that — we do class that, and are paying for it under through freight service rates. Mr. Morrissey: As through freight service? Mr. Hudson : As through freight service. Mr. Morrissey : Do you believe that engineers in that class of service are entitled to a higher rate of pay than engineers engaged in strictly switching service f Mr. Hudson : Yes, I think they are. The Chairman: Mr. Duncan, have you any questions to ask? Mr. Duncan : That is all. (Witness excused.) Mr. Duncan : Are there any other Pennsylvania employes you want, Mr. Stone ? Mr. Stone: No, I think not. I wanted to bring out those rates, on the Western Pennsylvania Division. Now, Mr. Packer, if you will take the chair, please. I want to explain, Mr. Chairman, I am simply introducing these witnesses to bring out the details of that settlement, where- by the Commission, appointed .by Mi. Atterbury arrived at the 180 miles a dav. Melvtlle K. Packer was recalled as a witness, and testified as follows : Mr. Stone: This is the man who was on the stand, as to the Jersey City -Washington run, the fast Southern Limited. Explain to these gentlemen, Mr. Packer, the details of that Commission, and how you arrived at the settlement you did. Mr. Packer: This Committee, or Commission, was ap- pointed as Mr. Atterbury told you the other day, when he was on the stand, due to the fact that the General Committee of the Pennsylvania Eailroad and Mr. Atterbury could not agree that the men running on the West Jersey & Seashore Eailroad were running too many miles, for a day's work. If J can quote from Mr. Atterbury Mr. Stone: That was in the e'ectric service, you irean? 965 Mr. Packer: That was in the electric service. He said that the committee had a perfectly honest opinion on one side, and he, Mr. Atterbury, had a perfectly honest opinion, on his side. "Now, how will we get together on this question; would this be a fair proposition f I will appoint three Road Foremen of Engines, and I Avill let you gentlemen pick them, and Mr. Bow- ler," (who was then our General Chairman) "you will appoint \!ito- engineers, and we will send them out to study the electric conditions, wherever similar conditions exist to those that are in existence on the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, and you, after studying those conditions, will make a report to me, with a recommendation, and if you say that the men on the West Jersey & Seashore Railrqad, electric service, are not as well treated as the men on similar service, I will put your recom- mendation into effect." The Committee was appointed; Mr. Atterbury suggested the name of Mr. Garabrant, which was acceptable to us, and also Mr. Hudson. One of our own committee, Mr. Mover, suggested the name of Mr. Scheck. Mr. Bowler, the General Chairman, appointed Mr. Shreves and Mr. Mover and myself, on the com- mittee. The committee was organized, and as far as I could as- certain, the only similar conditions we could find to the West Jersey & Seashore were on the Long Island Railroad, the New York Central and the New York, New Haven & Hartford. We spent several days going over these different roads, studying their working conditions and collecting data, as to their duties, the miles they made, and so forth. We then reconvened in Philadelphia. If my memory serves me right, we convened on a Tuesday morning, and we did not reach a conclusion until Friday after- noon. About two days and a half of this time, or from Wed- nesday morning, I think, until Friday afternoon, we spent in trying to come to a conclusion, on the mileage question. We had agreed to everything else except that one particular point, and that we could not agree on. The three Road Foremen of Engines stood for 210 miles; they were willing to concede the rate and the working conditions, but were not willing to go below 210 miles, that these men were working. On the other hand, the engineers were asking for the steam 966 mileage, 120 miles. I do believe that Mr. Shreves did advance from 120 to 150, but this, the other three gentlemen would not consider at all. Some time .during Friday, I saw that this Committee would probably agree to disagree, whioh would practically mean noth- ing to us, because I am satisfied that, had we gone back to Mr. Atterbury with a divided report, the conditions would have re- mained the same on the West Jersey & Seashore Bailroa'd as they had been, and for that reason, after a question by Mr. Gara- brant, I proposed, as a compromise, the 180 miles, the rates and conditions to remain, and this was agreed upon by the entire committee, and then we wrote up the conclusion, as Mr. Atter- bury stated it here, on the stand. Mr. Stone: In reaching that conclusion you were looking out for and trying to save your standard pay; was that the idea you had before you? Mr. Packer : Yes. Mr. Stone : What was your standard day's pay at that time"? Mr. Packer : $4.72. Mr. Stone : Have you been satisfied, in your own mind, that 180 miles is right for electric service? Mr. Packer: No, sir. Mr. Stone: It was simply the best compromise you could get? Mr. Packer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Duncan : That is all. The Chairman: What did you think was right? Mr. Packer: 120 miles. Mr. Stone: The same as steam. Mr. Duncan: Would you like to have the stenographic re- port of the meeting between Mr. Atterbury and the men? The Chairman: No. We remember it very well. I don't think that is necessary. Mr. Stone: Mr. Shreves was also one of the committee selected. 967 J. C. Shreves was called as a witness and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone : You have heard of Mr. Packer 's .testimony, Mr. Shreves ? Mr. Shreves: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Have you anything different to add from that,, in regard to the selection of the committee on the conferences, you held! Mr. Shreves: No, sir, I don't think I have anything to add to it whatever, if my memory serves me right. Mr. Stone: Were you satisfied with the conclusion that you. finally reached, in regard to the mileage? Mr. Shreves: No, sir. Mr. Stone : You were satisfied in regard to the rate of pay, were you not 1 ? Mr. Shreves : Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : You wanted to keep it ? Mr. Shreves: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone : "What is your idea of what should have been the mileage ? Mr. Shreves : Well, I stood on the steam rates, the condi- tions the same as on two of the other roads considered, and on the Long Island they had fifteen more miles, I thought we were doing just as good work as they were, and it was worth just as much money as the other men were getting. Of course, I wanted my men to have the same wages as the others did. Mr. Stone : That is the reason why you tried to hold to the daily rate? Mr. Shreves: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Morrissey: What was the mileage in effect, at the time you had this matter under consideration? Mr. Shreves: 210. Mr. Morrissey: It was reduced, as the result of this agree- ment, to 180 miles ? Mr. Shreves: Yes, sir. Mr. Morrissey: What would have been the result if you had reported back a disagreement? Mr. Shreves: Well, it would have been a case — I don't hard- 968 ly know where it would have left us. The probabilities are that the 210 miles would have still remained for a day's work. Well, there would have been a good deal more kicking than that there was, all around. Mr. Stone: Well, your committee had not been able to change it from 210, had they? Mr. Shreves : No, sir. Mr. Stone: That is all,. Mr. Chairman. I will call Mr. Mover, who was the other member of the committee. J. W. Mover was called as a witness and testified as fol- lows: Mr. Stone : This is the third and last man who was a member of the committee. You were on this committee with Mr. Packer and Mr. Shreves? Mr. Moyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: And the road foremen? Mr. Moyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: You have heard Mr. Packer's statement? Mr. Moyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Is that your recollection of it? Mr. Moyer: Yes, sir; that is my recollection. I corroborate everything that he has said. Mr. Stone : You were satisfied with the daily rate ? Mr. Moyer: Yes. Mr. Stone: But wanted to hold it? Mr. Moyer: Yes, sir. Mr. Stone: Were you satisfied with the mileage von arrived at? Mr. Moyer : No, sir. Mr. Stone: Why did you settle, then? Mr. Moyer: Simply because it was the best we could get. Mr. Stone: In case you hadn't settled, what would liavo- happened ? Mr. Mover: That is prettv bard to tell. I rather suppose they would have stayed at 210 miles. 969 Mr. Morrissey: Did your committee have authority to ar- bitrate its differences! Mr. Moyer: No, I don't think it did. I would have liked very much to have had a referee, though. The Chairman: How does that mileage compare with what is general in the electric service? Mr. Stone: It doesn't compare to it. The New York Cen- tra and the New Haven are the same as the steam mileage, and the Long Island is fifteen miles difference, and this is sixty miles difference. The Chairman : Some other roads have varying conditions ? Mr. Stone : No, sir ; these are really the only four roads that have this kind of service we are speaking of, unless they would bring in, like Mr. Atterbury did, the Hudson & Manhattan, which is a street railroad that cannot handle standard equip- ment, running back and forth under the river. They are mak- ing 142 miles per day. And I think the Interborough, in ex- press train service, run 165 to 180 miles, a day. That isn't any bearing on these rates. Those are simply local conditions, in New York City. That is all I want to ask Mr. Moyer. Any questions, Mr. Duncan ? Mr. Duncan: No questions. Mr. Stone: I simply wanted to corroborate the statements of the other gentlemen. Mr. Stone: I think that is all, so far as we are concerned, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman: That is all, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan : That is all. The Chairman: When do you gentlemen want to sum up? Mr. Stone : I believe, according to the rules of the game, I get the last word, so, I suppose, it is up to Mr. Duncan to say when he is ready. Mr. Duncan : I can go forward almost any time if the Board wants to go forward. The Chairman : Are you ready to sum up now, or what are your wishes in the matter? Mr. Duncan: I really have not much preference. If I was exercising any choice, I would wait until tomorrow. The Chairman: What is your preference, Mr. Stone? 970 Mr. Stone : I would prefer to wait until tomorrow until after I hear what Mr. Duncan says ; but I am ready any time. I should like to have the closing, and I believe it belongs to me. Mr. Duncan : I think you are entitled to both the opening and the closing, Mr. Stone. Mr. Van Hise : Can the gentlemen agree on a division of time in the morning, so we can finish during the forenoon? The only thing that is necessary from the viewpoint of the Board is that the argument be finished in the forenoon so we can have the afternoon for conference. Mr. Duncan : I am anxious to have Mr. Bobbins make an 'opening statement, particularly with relation to some financial conditions on the New Haven that have not been brought out, not by way of testimony, but merely by way of argument, illus- trating the general situation. I think it will take Mr. Bobbins about 25 or 30 minutes, for that, and I do not believe I will want over 30 minutes. If we have an hour between us, that will be plenty of time. Mr. Bobbins suggests we need an hour and a half between us. Mr. Van Hise: That will take until half past eleven. How long a time will you need, Mr. Stone? Mr. Stone : 45 minutes will do me. The Chairman: How would it be if Mr. Bobbins went on now ? Are you ready, Mr. Bobbins ? Mr. Bobbins : I think so. Mr. Van Hise: How would that suit you, Mr. Duncan? Mr. Duncan : It would suit me. The Chairman : If Mr. Bobbins is ready, we would be very glad to hear him, now. You have the floor, Mr. Bobbins. Mr. Bobbins : Dr. Van Hise, at an earlier stage in the hear- ing, said he would like to have the figures from any railroad com- pany that had had a physical valuation of the property. I am glad to be able to furnish for the-New York, New Haven & Hart- ford Bailroad, such figures. As I am going to use them a little, I want to say a word about how they were made up. In the first place, Mr. John S. Stevens, who, as you will re- member, preceded Mr. Goethals, as engineer in charge of the Panama Canal, when compelled by the effect of that climate on his health to leave that service, was engaged to make a physical 971 valuation of all the property of the company. He had a largo staif of assistants. He made complete survey s and, after labor lasting a long time, produced a complete valuation of the prop- erty of the company. Afterwards, all the details of that valu- ation were submitted to Price, Waterhouse & Company, who are well knowfn as chartered accountants, by them criticised and re- arranged. Later, the State of Massachusetts, for reasons it is not necessaiy to enter into, determined to have a physical valu- ation made. They appointed, for that purpose, a commission consisting of the Railroad Commissioners, the Tax Commis- sioner and the Savings Bank Commissioner. The commission so constituted employed Professor Swain, who was for many years head of the Engineering Department of the Institute of Technology and now is the head of the Engineering Department of Harvard University, as their chief expert. There was no limit placed upon the amount of money at Professor Swain's disposal in employing assistants, it being provided that, what- ever it should cost, the New Haven Railroad Company should pay all the expenses. He had a very able corps of assistants, and 1 am able to hand you the report of this joint commission in the year l&ll, which is perhaps the most interesting document of the kind tl at exists anywhere. The Chairman: Would you read the title? Mr. Robbins: "Report of the Joint Commission on the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Company," is the title. Of course,- this book is not generally obtainable, but 1 shall be glad to give each member of the Commission a copy of it. Tt is deserving a place in the library of anybody who is interested at all in such questions. The total result was that the Commission found the value of the New Haven's property to be ju?t short of $500,000,000, four hundred and ninety-five million and some odd dollars. Now, I make one observation, because some of you may consider it important : The New York, New Haven & Hartford Eailroad Company is made up of railroads formerly independ- ent, running north and south, while its main line runs east and west. Each of these north and south railroads practically ex- tended its system of transportation to New York City, by 972 means of a steamboat line connected with its southern terminal, on Long Island Sound. So that these lines, which developed out of actual needs, being continued, to-day, the company has a, con. siderable steamship property. :lf it were endeavored to pour. all of the business of the north and south lines over the main raih road into New York, a congestion would immediately be pro- duced which would render the traffic impossible. Furthermore, each one of these steamship lines has a terminal in a different part of New York City, and the whole net work is so arranged that a shipper in New England' who wants to reach a certain part of New York City routes bis goods so that they pass over a line having a steamship terminal at that part of New York City. Those of you who are familiar with New York conditions know that, practically, there are a good many business commun- ities there, up and down Manhattan Island. Also it is true in our case, having a very thickly settled country, that in many ways the general transportation problem, as it appeared to our directors, could be handled better by hav- ing the street railway lines and the steam lines largely, in the same ownership. Therefore, the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Company by stock ownership, controls prac- tically all of the urban and suburban railways, in Connecticut and Rhode Island, and a considerable number in Massachusetts. More and more, of course that stock ownership has neces- sitated the two kinds of transportation being dove-tailed into one another, to the great advantage of the public — the street raalwjays coming to be used to save a large expense of cartage, by moving freight to factories not reached by the steam rail- ways, but reached by the trolleys. And more and more, by the use of branch lines on which the steam traffic was unimportant, in part, that we established trolley traffic. If you desire, however, for any purpose, to distinguish the steam railroad property strictly from the other two kinds of property, you will find that this is impossible, so far as exact figures are concerned. I think it may, to some of you, see important, if I state for the year of this valuation, the total amount paid to the holders of tbte New Haven securities, whether in the form of interest or dividends. 973 These figures are given to me by our Financial Vice-Presi- dent. Interest on bonds, debentures and other liabilities, $10,- 677,458.75. Dividends, $9,759,081. Making a total of $20,436,539.75. The valuation of assets of the Valuation Commission gave a total of $495,759,638.01. From those figures it appears that during the year of this valuation, the amount paid to the holders of securities was at the rate of 4.12 per cent., upon the valuation. Eoughly, 4% per cent, upon the actual valuation of the property. Mr. Van Hise : Before you go f arthjer, may I interrupt you and ask that you put in for the same period, the same year, the amount that went from income to additions and better- ments I Mr. Bobbins : I regret to say that during that year the in- come was not sufficient to apply anything to improvements and betterments. I propose to put in, Dr. Van Hise, in connection with this report, all reports for 1910, and 1911, which will contain an- swers to all the questions of that kind that I think you would wish to ask. I put this in because Dr. Van Hise asked for it. But I want to answer a question that a member of the Board asked about a matter of this kind, how they bore, at all, upon your arbitration. True it is that, in the case of an ordinary individual, it would have no particular point for him to say, if he were em- ploying men in a factory, in competition with a lot of other men, in the same kind of business, "I cannot afford to pay you as much as the other men can." I think, however, you would agree that when you come to consider all the men in the busi- ness, the two would not be the same. Dr. Van Hise asked one of the witnesses whether there were any principles, at all, that would govern the question before you. I have learned that the seeker after truth has specially to beware of interesting stories that are told, in history and broad generalizations, on any subject. Nevertheless, I think there is one principle that is pretty safe, and that is that you cannot 974 get. for all the factors in any business, any more than there is in the business. That doctrine stands on the same basis as that of the conservation of energy. I think there is a good deal to a remark made in Professor Taussig's book on Economics, to the effect that it is a pity that the efforts of organized labor are so exclusively directed, not to increasing the general output, but to the manouvering for a bigger slice of the output. It is somewhat like a family which should spend its time quarreling about who should have the biggest slice of cake instead of spending more time making cake enough for everybody. T then say that, however great the pow- ers of this remarkable Board of Arbitration are, even they are not great enough in the long run, to defy the general economic law, that none of the factors concerned in any business can per- manently get out of that business more than there is in it, more than the total output. When that principle is considered, the fact that I have just laid before you has a pertinence, as show- ling that one of the necessary factors of the railroad business is only receiving less than the current rate of return, on the value of invested property. This may be looked at in another aspect. In 3872, when this corporation was organized, it had a relatively small capital, only $15,000,000. No part of the great amount of stock that Kas since been issued has been issued at so low a price as par. A part of it was issued at 195, a large amount at 175, and a very large amount at 150 per share, paid into the treasury by the stockholders who subscribed it. The last amount of $40,000,000 was subscribed for at 125, because that was by that time all that the stockholders would give, for so large an amount of stock. You will recognize, I think, that very few railroads, perhaps none but the Pennsylvania System, can borrow money today under existing market conditions, for money, even at 4i/ 2 per cent, when all the expenses, commissions and otherwise are tak- en into account, as they must be. I think the New Haven, or the New York Central and I should have supposed the Pennsyl- vania, would have to pay a little more than 4% per cent, for their money, borrowed on securities supposed to be ample. You real- ize that it is impossible to go on borrowing money indefinitely, without increasing capital stock, because you cannot borrow money, at that rate, unless there is sufficient' capital to eliminate the risk to those who lend money on bonds. 975 Now, what money can be had for, in quantities, for an issue of capital stock is a more difficult question. I call your atten- tion to certain facts which may influence your judgment in that connection. As I say, the most that we could issue our last batch of capital stock at, was 125. The price paid for rights showed that we had about reached the limit. To-day we could not issue a large batch of capital stock, at that. Our stock is now selling at 135, and at the time of that issue it sold at a considerably higher price. I have been intimately acquainted with all the financing, for a good many years, of the New Haven Eoad and my judgment is that we should be very fortunate, if we could market a large batch of stock at 120. I checked that information, by a question I put to President McOrea, with re- gard, to the Pennsylvania. He said the Pennsylvania is now selling at 124, and he did not think they could put out a large batch of stock at a higher price than 100. You understand you cannot sell forty millions of stock at the same price for which you can sell a few hundred shares on the stock market. Now, our stock has paid, for a great many years, a dividend of eight per cent., and that means that an eight per cent, stock like ours, will not sell for better than 120. That is, taking in- to account all the risks, it must yield about 6.6 per cent. The Pennslyvania could probably sell on a straight six per cent, basis. Ours, as I think, at about 6.6 per cent., in a large amount. Now, as it happens, and it is an interesting coincidence, if you add to the nominal value of our capital stock actually out- standing with the public, the amount that has been paid inta the treasury, by those who obtained that stock from the com- pany that is through paying the subscription price, or through sales of treasury stock amounting to about $31,000,000, you will find that our eight per cent, on our outstanding capital stock means that the holders of our stock are today receiving, on the money actually paid into the treasury by them, to the company —they are receiving just that amount 6.66 per cent. Of course, that is rather an interesting coincidence, but it is more than a coincidence. I would like to give you the exact figures. Subtracting 976 from the total capital stock the amount held by subsidiary com- panies, and by our insurance fund, so as to get the amount out- standing in the hands of the public, I make that $157,077,700. Eight per cent, upon that amounts to $12,566,216. Adding to the amount stated of capital stock outstanding, in the hands of the public, the premiums paid, $30,987,449.93 gives, if my .additions this afternoon are correct, $188,065,150.93. That amount paid to give eight per cent, on our outstanding stock, is, as 1 figure,, 6.6 per cent, of the money actually paid in to .the company by the original holders of the outstanding stock. Now, bear in mind that you cannot safely take for your conclusions the most prosperous railroad in this territory, any more than you could safely take the least prosperous. What you are dealing with is the railroad business in general, in this territory. Now, with the New York, New Haven & Hartford . Railroad Company, you are dealing with a railroad in a very considerable territory, which is growing in wealth and popula- tion probably as rapidly and as steadily as any other district of equal size in the United States. The business of the com- pany is growing with the growth of the district in wealth and population. You are not dealing, therefore, with a company whose business is going backward. I think, therefore, that you may find the facts that I have stated potent evidence of the state of the railway business in the whole territory; certainly it will give you the actual state of the railroad business in southern New England because prac- tically there are no other railroads in southern New England than those of the New Haven Railroad Company. Now, a farmer, at the end of the year, "after he has paid his bills and gotten his money, if his crops are not good enough, as he thinks, to fully compensate him for all his time and effort, may grumble, but he has to be satisfied. There isn't any more in the business. If a cab driver, after he has taken in all his fares for a month finds that what he has received is not what he thinks his time and effort is worth, he nevertheless, has to be satisfied, because it is all there is in the business. Now, taking all of us together, who are engaged in this railroad business, we have got to look at the whole thin ff , in 977 just that same way. We may not like it, but it is all there is in the business. When Mr. Stone asked one of the witnesses whether it was necessary to wait for an increase in wages until all the neces- sary improvements were made, I was impressed with the feel- ing that the spirit of the question was not unlike that of the boy who should say to his father, "Do you mean to say I have got to wait for that watch until you earn the money?" The boy don't like to wait, and Mr. Stone don't like to wait, but you cannot get out of the business more than there is in it, and you cannot carry on their business or my business and the busi- ness of all of us who go to make that railroad organization, un- less you allow the factor of capital its fair share of the total output. What good would it do for the farmer to say, "I have not made enough here, and I won't pay my interest!" If the cab drivers hires his cab, how would he come out if he said, "This total result does not satisfy me for my time and effort; I won't pay the rent of my cab f ' ' Mr. Morrissey : Could he raise the price of his fares ? Mr. Robbins : Can we ? He probably would under the same conditions that we are; his tariff is fixed by the Board of Alder- men, as ours is by the bodies controlling it. Now, I will talk to that in a minute. I want to just carry this a little further. Of course, this would be apparent to every- body, in the case of a road that was barely earning its operat- ing expenses, because that is clear to the most limited business experience. It is true, and I think some of us engaging in the railroad business exaggerate the importance of it, that you can, for a time, if you are absolutely forced to, go on and pay more wages than the business will stand, but if you do, you are like the man who is in such a condition that he has to submit to a starvation diet. He can live for a time on his fat, but he cannot do so forever. Now, enough has been said about the amounts of money that have to be raised in order to pay for such things as grade For instance, we have seventeen grade crossings in 978 "the one State of Connecticut to eliminate each .year, but let me add, for it be of interest to Dr. Van Hise, that in order to ascertain how much there was in our savings in the elimination of gates and gate tenders, our Accounting Department made a calculation, and found that in Bridgeport, where, to eliminate the crossings, we were obliged to build an elevated road through the city, the total amount which was saved only just paid the bill for painting the elevated structure. I want to call attention to a little different aspect of these expenditures that have to be made for improvements and bet- terments. The President of the Company asked me to say to you gentlemen that, basing his judgment upon the experiences of his administration, the New Haven Railroad Company would need, on the average, as far ahead as he could look, $15,000,000 per annum for improvements and betterments. , He is also 1he President of the Boston & Maine Railroad. He asked me to say that the Boston & Maine Railroad needs seven and one-half million dollars, for additions and betterments. He wanted me, however, to add, by 'way of caution, that that is a minimum. A measure was recommended by the Governor of Massachu- setts, which probably would have passed but for some trouble between the parties over appointments, that would have re- quired the railroads entering Boston to electrify, and would have also required the construction of a tunnel connecting the Boston & Maine and the New York, New Haven & Hartford, right through the heart of the city. I may as well say that we know that we are going to be required to electrify, in and around Boston. The only ques- tion is, when, in the future, and how long a time we shall be given to do it. That means an expenditure probably of approximately one hundred million dollars; and, mind you, that will not add one dollar to our earning power. I made, myself, a very careful study, with all the aid I could get, and the effect of the electrification to Stamford, and I found that it had increased the cost of operation over similar operations, by steam. Leaving those things out of account, that are required by 979 law, without increasing our earning power, I want to speak of another element that has not been spoken of very fully. That is the additions and betterments that are required, as a result of increase in population and business. There are two ob- servations I wish to make. When you have to enlarge a freight yard, in the heart of a growing and considerable city, the ex- pense is many times what it was to acquire that freight yard originally. When you have to four-track a two-track railroad, it costs more than it did to build the railroad originally. If you want to put in a siding on a four-track railroad, it will cost you many, many times, as much as it will to put in that siding, on a single track railroad, because of the number of cross-overs and the whole expense of an elaborate signal system that will go, therewith. Whatever may be your theory, that theory is worthless, for practical application, unless it recognizes the fact that a public service corporation, such as our railroad company, abso- lutely must take care of the business offered to it. It is not only a legal duty, but an absolute practical necessity, And, in order to take care of it, it must spend enormous sums of money, proportionately increasing, as a result of the increase in popu- lation and the extent of the complexity of its own physical net- work of tracks. Looking at this matter entirely from the point of view of the men themselves, in their own interest, their permanent interest, you must enable the corporation that pays them to raise the money for these necessary expenditures. What will happen if you do not? What will happen if you live too long on your fat! And, they cannot get the money. I saw at once. I saw it on the old New York-New England Railroad. That is where I began my law practice. You do not have proper facilities for conducting the traffic offered you and congestion follows, and you get less money than you did before your traffic increased — less net money. Any long continuance of living on your fat will reduce your strength so that you can- not earn the same living you would before. Any policy on the part of us men engaged in the railroad business, even though it had all your influence behind it, which will operate to hinder the managers of the company in making the improvements necessary to enable the company to handle profitably, the busi- 980 ness that it must handle, • will result in diminishing the total output to be divided. We cannot altogether, get more out of it than there is in it. Now, turn to our figures. We have more bonds than stock, considerably more, about one hundred million more. We can- not issue many more bonds without also issuing some stock. If we do, we will have to pay more interest, considerably more. If you produce conditions requiring the lowering of our dividends so that those who hold our stock are getting less for the money they paid in, than the rate which the people are willing to acquire a big batch of new stock, for, we cannot market that stock. You can make us come down a little, but not much. Now, I have not said a word, mind you, about what is fair to those who furnish capital. That is not because I do not think that everybody who is working for the railroad is bound to think of that. And, when those who have furnished the capital are only getting 4% per cent., in the aggregate, on a valuation of the property which is unquestionably low, which was deliberately made low, as you will find from the statement of Professor Swain, you have already got the yield of that below what you yourselves would say is fair. Apply to that situation, the effect of the last wage increase. I do not need, in what I have to say to you, to consider any figures about the effect of any wage increase you might grant. I say to you that I submit for your consideration, if you think the New Haven Railroad Company fairly represents a success- ful and business growing corporation, the figures, asking you the question, for your own determination, whether the effect of the last wage increase was not to bring us to living for a year or two, at any rate, on our fat. Tn the annual report, for the year ending June 30th, 1911, by the directors to the stockholders, is this passage: "It was estimated that the advances in wages to employes effective with the beginning of the fiscal year 1911, would ag- gregate $1,757,506. That was an estimate. Compared with the wages paid in 1910, these advances have increased the operating expenses in 1911, by $1,521,513.42. That is not speculation, but actual. 981 If the same rate of wages had prevailed in 1911, as was paid in 1910, the ratio of operating expenses to revenue would have been 63.35 per cent., a little less than the ratio for 1910, and the deficit of $1,267,539.99, converted into a surplus of $253,973.43. I wish you to note that that wage increases not only pre- vented our carrying, to improvements and betterments, the small sum of $253,973.33, but resulted in an actual deficit of over $1,200,000. Now, I want to deal frankly with everyone concerned, and I say that, counting as we can with confidence on an increase in the traffic over the New Haven Railroad, we may, we do not know it, but we may in a year, or two wipe out the annual de- ficit. We shall not do it this year, the year following this report. The effect, therefore, upon an old prosperous railroad company, in a growing territory of the last wage increase was to create a deficit, although the road was on a financial basis that I think no one here would say was yielding an unfair amount to the holders of the securities. The other railroad system of New England is the Boston & Maine. Indirectly, a majority of its capital stock is not owned by the New Haven. While the southern part of the Boston & Maine territory has similar conditions to the New Haven's ter- ritory, the northern part of New England, of course, is not so prosperous. I think no one would say that the Boston & Maine System, taken as a whole, could be considered as an injudicious railroad investment, or a railroad system that ought not from any point of view to have been construtced. Until very recently, the Boston & Maine Railroad was a standard six per cent, stock. It sold well above par constantly, in the market; the law of Massachusetts being such that at all times new issues of capital stock have to be placed on the market at the going value of the stock. I have not the total amount of premiums actually paid into the treasury by the holders of the stock, but it is very considerable. I read from the annual report, for the year ending June 30th, 1911, the effect of the last wage increase upon the Boston & Maine. This is the year following the increase : ' ' The amount of the payrolls charged to operating expenses, 982 for the year ending June 30th, 1910, was $18,368,268.75. Simi- lar charges for the year ending June 30th, 1911, for the same class and amount of labor were $20,010,140.96, the difference, $1,641,872.21, represents the amount paid by the company, as an increase in wages, for the year ending June 30th, 1911^ to its employes in service during the previous year. Had the company been able to maintain the same schedule of wages, for the same class, character and quantity of labor during the year, ending June 30, 1911, as were in effect during the previous year, the company's net revenue, applicable to dividends would have been increased, by $2,468,457.30. The decrease, actually in net cor- porate income, amounted to $2,494,633.21." It has been necessary to reduce the Boston & Maine's divi- dend. They are not even earning the reduced dividend, they are barely earning anything applicable to dividends and have, of course, no surplus, for improvements and betterments. As Mr. Horn stated, an increase in wages, at a much smaller percentage than is asked for, in the present demands, will not only destroy any possibility of a dividend, but will prevent the payment of any interest on bonds. Now there is the greater part of a great section of the United States. If that is fairly repre- sentative of the conditions of railroad business to-day, it would seem that the last increase in wages, amounted to a concession to employes of more than there is for them in the business. Now, of course, it does not theoretically follow, by any necessity, that an increase by you of the engineers ' wages would result in a general increase. Practically it follows with absolute certainty, or else we face a strike. I may go a little further. I may say that unless, by the great weight of your intellectual and moral atithority, you can succeed in making all of us, who are working for the railroads realize a principle, which as I say, stands alongside that of the conservation of energy, that there is not any more for all of us to be got out of the business than its total output, they are still going on to make these demands and to enforce their demands by threat of tieing up the rail- roads, in this territory, with all that that means. It means, in the first instance, crippling the revenues of the railroad, and, in the second instance, checking the wheels of industry through- out the whole territory. This has got to stop, for the time being, 983 at any rate, in the interest of every man that makes the demand,, if you heed his true interest. Unless you can make these gentle- men and the others who are following after them, with their demands, see that, I say to you, I take a most pessimistic view of ' the near outlook. I want to say a word or two that has not been said, in addi- tion. I want to call your attention to a distinction; in one as- pect, the demands made are what they purport to be, the ex- pression of a natural desire on the part of the locomotive en- gineers to get more. For that desire, every man with blood in his veins has sympathy. There is, however, another aspect of these demands which I think I may fairly call to your attention. The other day I received a letter from the Secretary of the State Board of Education, who is our principal school executive, ask- ing me whether he could not secure the railroads co-operation, in introducing training for locomotive engineers, in our Con- necticut trade schools. I wrote him briefly that it was imprac- ticable. At the next meeting of the Board of Education, of which I have been a member for a good many years, he took that up with me, with just a trace of resentment. He said, "We can just as well train locomotive engineers as we can the high grade mechanics we are training, now." He says, "What is there for them to learn?" I said, "They have got to learn the rules of the railroad." Said he, "Do you, with all your ex- perience tell me that any good Grammar School teacher cannot teach those rules to those boys, explaining them as they hang together, and with illustrations of their purpose and effect so that they would know them? Do you mean to say we cannot, with proper apparatus, get them to know those signals so that they cannot mistake them!" "Well," I said, "We only de- mand 80 per cent and I must say that 80 per cent, of understand- ing of the rules of a man's own business is not a very heavy re- quirement. ' ' He said, "Don't you think we can teach those boys how' to care for those locomotives and air brakes, just as well as they are being taught now?" I said, "I don't know but what you can, but they are not being taught, now. 'Practically, under our present system, the men who become locomotive engineers are men who have been engaged in shoveling coal, but that has be- come harder for them every year, with the increase in the size 984 of locomotives." ""Well," he said, "then, I would like to know why you gave me the answer you did; don't you think the grad- uate of our grammar schools that we get, in our trade schools, has got just as much intelligence as our average engineer?" I said, "He is probably as good a selection, perhaps as good as that which confines them to the class from which he is chosen, but he is obliged to perform a very heavy job of physical labor." Then he said, "W T hy did you say it is impracticable?" I said, "Because no matter how fit they were, and no matter how much time they would be willing to spend trying for the job. they would not have a chance at it." Tie said, "That isn't fair." I said, "That may be, but it is a condition you cannot alter." Now, that illustrates one aspect of the demands of the or- ganization, which I think you ought to differentiate, from the mere demand for better compensation. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers has in it many elements of co-operation, on thoroughly modern lines, admir- able in every way. In another aspect, however, it is a militant organization whose purpose is war. Now, a great many demands are made by the Brotherhood which must be viewed by you in that aspect. The firemen shut out everybody from the post of locomotive engineer except their own members. Now, in part, but in part only, they are thinking of themselves. I do not believe any of the railway managers would ever allow any change of system that would result in any unfair diminution of the compensation, or unfair working conditions for the existing employes, but when the terms proposed affect not existing employes but the sustaining of the order, as a militant organization, you should look at it, I sub- mit, in a slightly different aspect. The proposal to shut out everybody, no matter how well fitted, from service as motorman, is not justified on the ground of any necessity, for the protection of existing employes. They wijl be well taken care of. That demand is a demand of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, as a militant organiza- tion. Along with the co-operative features, which are admir- able, go these features, which, in some respects, remind me of the old feudal society, the characteristic of which was that the members of the feudal unit, while united among themselves, were at war with the rest of the world. "Why," our common school men say, who are interested 985 in the training of the new generation, "Why are yon shutting out from a new job like this, these bright boys we are graduat- ing from our grammar schools, whJo are willing to go through any preparation you ask for such a job as that?" Standardization. Now, I want, for the New England lines,, to say that we do not object, in the least, to the application, scientifically and intelligently, with proper regard for local con- ditions, of any general principle that you may think it wise to adopt. 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CN l~~ 00 CN oo CO eo QO CN OS CO_ -* CC CN CO S ^ CO CO US us 1° CN 1 o" o in CN »o g GO to os CO 00 »o tO CO to ' c CM 0C CO CO CO ©" CC r- CO CN CO d c; »o_ n eo CM q e*: CN CN OS_ © CN CN in oo 00 ■* CN Os_ * H Tj" CO OS t^ OS eo *o CN cO eo CO >o CO CO CO OS «a o> e^ F- co_ g co a c to CM CO* CO ex CO ^3 CO 00 CM CO CO « CO eo CM t» c£ co o OS CN 00 e* t-^ OS as 00 as_ a *: 1-1 ec CO CO © us os" it s CN o CC CO CM CN CO to s CC OS 5 ■*" OS CN (M a «-* t> tH ■3 1 1 1 9$ rt 03 l— ' 1 1 ■9§ a 3 S II 1 ! I 3 1 & I of passengers i tal, Groups I, ir, I i E : t 3 6 5 » 1 | I I t— e I > c. • 1 j a SB 1-1 "si |e2 c I ,1 3 I. p. . g > a> umber mile: To 1^ < 55 1 1 Engineers' Exhibit No. 2. July 15, 1912. CLASSIFICATION OF ENGINES ON LINES EAST OF CHICAGO. (See Testimony, Page 37.) Not Printed. 6 Engineers' Exhibit 3. (See testimony, page 37.) ENGINES IN SERVICE ON EASTERN RAILROADS Bessemer & Lake Erie Railroad Type 4-4-0 15 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 25 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 7 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Consolidation 101 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 8 Engines with cylinders 24 inches and over in diameter 13 Switch Engines Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Passenger Engines 395 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 98 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Passenger & Freight 89 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 99 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Freight 55 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 894 Engine's with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 160 Engines with cylinders 24 inches and over in diameter 10 Mallet 10 Motors Engineers' Exhibit 3 Boston & Maine Railway Passenger 79 Engines with cylinders ,'20 inches or less in diameter 52 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Passenger & Freight 500 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Freight 317 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 64 Engines with cylinders over 20 and under 24 inches 235 Switch Engines Boston & Albany Railway Type 4-4-0 53 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-6 18 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 2 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 4 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 20 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches and less than 24 inches Type 4-8-0 84 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 74 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-6-2 55 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-4-2 6 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Buffalo, Rochester & Pittsburgh Type 4-4-0 6 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 4-4-2 7 Ehgines with, cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 7 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Type 4-6-0 15 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 3 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-8-0 46 Engines with cylinders 20 inches 'or less in diameter 4 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 2-8-0 52 Engines with cylinders 20 inches and under in diameter 151 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches — Engines with cylinders 26y 2 x 30 Super Heater Mikado — Engines with cylinders 24% x 26 Pacific Type 7 Switch Engines Central Vermont Railway Type 4-4-0 23 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 18 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 39 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Consolidation 21 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville Railway Type 4-4-0 14 Engines. with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-4-6 2 Engines with cylinders, 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 1 Engine with cylinder 20 inches or less in diameter 9 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 4-6-0 22 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 20 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 20 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-8-0 17 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-4-2 2 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-6-2 16 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-2 1 Engine with cylinder 22 x 30 inches 22 Switch Engines Chicago, Tebbe Haute & Southeastern. Railw ay Type 4-4-0 12 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 12 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 24 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 10 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 5 Engines with cylinders 25 x 30 inches Cincinnati Nobtheen Railroad 32 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 18 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway Type 4-4-0 96 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 10 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 2-6-0 65 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 130 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 6 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 2-8-0 18 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 314 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Atlantic Type 20 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 40 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Pacific Type 35 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than. 24 inches 164 Switch Engines Central Railroad of New Jersey Type 4-4-0 80 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Atlantic Type 11 Engines with cylinders -20 inches or less in diameter 6 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Type 4-6-0 86 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 34 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 2-6-0 17 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Consolidation 144 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 13 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches 94 Switch Engines Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton Railway Type 4-4-0 45 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 11 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 4-6-0 81 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 13 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 35 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 20 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 4-6-2 5 Engines with cylinders 22 x 26 inches Mikado B and O 3 Engines with cylinders 24 x 32 inches 52 Switch Engines Chicago, Indiana & Southern Raileoad and Indiana Habboe Belt Raileoad 43 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 76 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches in diameter 2 Engines with cylinders 24 x 28 inches 44 Switch Engines Delaware & Hudson Passenger 57 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 13 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Freight 45 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 278 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches in diameter 10 Mallet Engines 42 Switch Engines Delawaee, Lackawanna & Western Raileoad Type 4-4-0 117 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 12 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 2-6-0 96 Engines (with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 46 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-6-0 31 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 35 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-8-0 20 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 215 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 15 Engines with cylinders 24 inches and over in diameter 61 Switch Engines Detroit, Toledo & Ieonton Railway Type 4-4-0 8 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 19 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 12 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Consolidation 19 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 20 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 6 Switch Engines Erie Railroad Type 4-4-0 100 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-4-2 61 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 24 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 3 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 13 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 4-6-0 180 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 61 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-8-0 215 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 556 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-10-0 6 Engines with cylinders 21 x 28 inches Type 4-6-2 . 59 Engines with cylinders 22% x 26 inches 4 Mallet Engines 161 Switch Engines GtKand Rapids & Indiana Railway Type 4-4-0 10 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 6 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in. diameter Type 4-6-0 26 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 28 Engines 'with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 28 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 28 in. in diameter Hocking Valley Railway Passenger 18 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Freight 62 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 30 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 24 Switch Engines 14 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Indianapolis Union Railway 16 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 7 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Kanawha & Michigan Eailway Passenger 8 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter. Freight 34 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter. 8 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 9 Switch Engines Lake Erie & Western Railroad. Passenger 31 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Freight 38 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 40 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Long Island Railroad Type 4-4-0 109 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-4-2 4 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 3 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-6-0 37 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 5 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 15 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Type 2-8-0 11 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 5 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-6-2 5 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 31 Switch Engines Maine Central Railroad Type 4-4-0 66 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-2 8 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-6-0 50 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 29 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 32 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-8-0 9 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-6-6-2 4 Engines with cylinders 22, 35 x 35 inches 15 Switch Engines New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Type 4-4-0 247 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-4-0 4 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 416 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 16 Engineers' Exhibit 3. Type 4-6-0 74 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 106 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 282 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-8-0 32 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-4-2 76 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 74 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-6-2 7 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 9 Dummy Engines 251 Switch Engines New York, New Haven & Hartfoed Bailroad Type 4-4-0 428 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Atlantic Type 12 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Pacific Type 32 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-6-0 56 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 50 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 2-6-0 357 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 17 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Consolidation 12 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 27 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 204 Switch Engines New York, Ontario & Western Railway Type 4-4-0 24 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 4 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 79 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 54 Engines with cylinders .20 inches or less in diameter 46 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 7 Switch Engines New York, Susquehanna & Western Railroad Type 4-4-0 17 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 48 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-0 2 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 2 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Consolidation 31 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 1 Engine with cylinder 28 x 32 inches Pennsylvania Lines East Passenger 540 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 464 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter 18 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Freight ,759 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 1448 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 260 Engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter Pennsylvania Lines West Type 4-4-0 58 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-4-2 65 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Type 4-6-0 87 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 161 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 419 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 30 Engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter 161 SWitch Engines Peee Marquette Railroad Type 4-4-0 85 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter - Type 4-4-2 23 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-2 10 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Type 4-6-0 51 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-6-0 62 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 102 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 19 Engineers' Exhibit 3 40 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 25 Engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter 76 Switch Engines Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad Passenger 23 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 10 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Freight 29 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 83 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 80 Switch Engines Toledo, St. Louis & Western Railroad Passenger 13 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Freight 18 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 30 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter Vandalia Railroad Type 4-4-0 30 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-4-2 ±7 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Type 2-6-0 51 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 32 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches in diameter Type 4-6-0 24 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 2-8-0 36 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 20 Class K Engines with cylinders 24 x 28 inches 31 Switch Engines Western Maryland Railroad Type 4-4-0 16 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter Type 4-6-2 10 Engines with cylinders 22 x 28 inches Type 4-6-0 10 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 5 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 inches Type 2-8-0 45 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 79 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 36 Engines with cylinders 24 inches or over in diameter Mallet 6 Engines Switch 9 Engines Wheeling & Lake Erie Eailroad Passenger Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 6 Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter Freight 74 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 78 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 1 Engine with cylinder 25 x 32 inches Switching Wabash Pittsburgh Terminal Railway Passenger 2 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 21 Engineers' Exhibit 3 Freight 4 Engines with cylinders 20 inches or less in diameter 10 Engines with cylinders over 20 ai d less than 24 in. in diameter West Side Belt Railroad Passenger 1 Engine with cylinder 18 x 26 inches Freight 1 Engine with cylinder 18 x 24 inches 2 Engines with cylinders over 20 and less than 24 in. in diameter 2 Mallet Engines 22 Engineers' Exhibit 4. (See testimony, pape 39.) RATES OF PAY ON WESTERN RAILROADS. 23 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. W o S w to H W O i— i 3 *s o t> o a o w CO « o w CO to < ft o o £ft^t5 fc » S a o ^ fiiJll h ^2 s4 ^"« a?? 1 fossil . •v -0T3 -5 HTJ m cL^uSsoS-s ft m en :?Om-i a) at p. 2 jo-o '.-a " o R2. 3 o a u . a S-fa^ Pfc f. 5 • t- » H r.a 2 Pjq K :q go o §«§ w ao b-i i"3 ii? H O «. 8 ft 3 O S O^S « ill- s ill ImgoS-pg-SS o -■ 1 1§£ H O Z B sr3a i ft 111 *H 2.3 a j- t- <- 0) 03 03 ftftft a-gl 13% 3 dx o 9rt '-§ oo in n 'S'S'o oo rtgrt w d 3 O 24 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. B-a.2 a a a tk *3I w CO H w o 1— I w o o CD CD 0) CD 03 CD 111111 L- (-. L- "- (- t- ° 9 O OS °» (NO S Dv o a> j) CD C 11 H> CD a a CD CD 03 111 CD CD CD ftftft no m w ■*j +* *j 5 d Cu CD CD DO 09 CO I DO CO 00 C CD CD CD ! 1111 1 1 8ooo o o ooo o o 1 1 111 2 ° z pi • •300 Ql PwnO S -p. {D rt Q0«O O^ fir C4M 1«£"H«C5 .H -"■"dfco-W 3-d rttJ s s x'o^ kjCC co OS. ,-J m ra 5 5 5 05 o ■3 Cm a no *> o" . ■o,°, sj-a g w CO P4 w o w CO CO < o CD CD CD CD CD 11111 «-. t- l_ I- U 0) CD CD CD & &.P, ft ft OOOiQO ■^lOt-iOCO "# ^»OcOcq Bo -g fl ait- • «> Se Ha „- ° il84*|*| 00 »o g 3 o ■Sfe d O.-u tea g 8^-^16^3 8 0,-0 g-c h a O.OJ ■-* "" ' 1 5°>.E Si o TH-* 3 SO &J3£ o S.SS go |as=gg 0) ■£ O O -f H d -r 03 3 O JS P- = * J3 StN-d-gCQ S &< o o AC tOO o o co co CO .£ I s !> _ i> 3 | -a M g-o o.S_ Sij gjj »; Ob a a as o , Is J 2 g" o .,[5 a h p Ok- ie 26 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. w g w CO H W o w P o w Or- « o 0,^*5 p, 3 | -a o 3naJ3 O O a 1 1 1 11 a a a a a s sa no. aa oo s ►J ■ o^3^ to • a; O Br •22. ■c|T3.2 , "" < -S'3 . a 6 oT ri Ps :-e J g 8 ug-g ■ 5 H H H W o a o OJ a S 'ill Is,.** dt-i « •3 Jo ^■3 a% «T3 3.2 STJ^g ■ = W £ w CO o w CO CO oo CO O mo m i iiii ii z 8 ■a £: ai ■r ■■a S^-d : a ■ H 'IS.-S fl OH • a a -a ■ o o a s * O; o~ a a) oS-H Sin ga O O g 5 o ■8 . B 2 U < < s D 27 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. I w XIX W g-c a So »S ;U p,6.aH_,.g o fe S s . ° S 13 » «xi S p ftj3«- d Ht3 c4 i«SaJ 's a o o 173 CO 11 oo 1- u. CJ CD CD CJ C ( 1111111 l* j_ j_ Im I- L Eh oj oj aa aa aa p. iO cD o 5 w » a -o * :© . 3 toO w to> i> ■SIS <&'£ •2oao mi ■/' —^ ■S=S £ &o*a> ° m O 0) *H . ED to o •so !(2-g o a 9-£ :J :S :S"E« S.SP-S So -a S« a a a ■Jla-o 3 jssh:* gas? s O - .to .a » m CD." Q> OT3 - - -= £1 - OO CO- fahJ^ 1 11 o o o o oo oo t-4 CD a a aa o o CO ■5 CD 0> a a I§ w o HI 1 8 So i&aa +>*S £* 03 CD (D g"SSSS •go* F a o a CM .a- i .a- a •3° w g w "a w CO en 2 a a ) 4) 0) CD fl) <1) CO CO (O IO 03 03 05 J) n a o o b o 1111111 «- *- t- t- «- »- «- ffi O V V O C C9 aaaa&aa .-( CO OS moo So -O n.S .55 :^S fc a Kg . ® S o : a °* ■■BS'S ■qo . H oPn & 10 W than ] drivers . > Wheel lbs. and tlantic, -S 1 . 2 S ■' n * ™ l TJ (0 .& ' d "J- C . 0) 01 rt rt • Oft _a .— o O in aga P4 .73 ~~ CD 3 1.2 a— * .21 S S<3 a " s < _o : -§.s «a 'tijD .-CS-a gagg ■a»a» ,as-a-§ ,Cti_^ a 2 i t:h| i*o« a sSao «1S oJO H S S -13 • d iO oi Ot>" .-■°. 'S a„ co" — i o <» 03 Q.Q.P. • SQ S ffl " OOiO a IX, o U5 - H Q n N < r H „i-i m in a a a iao© r--o»o * a Oh o o" o^ ZO ZO " a ■s R " 3«6J w o I w O i— i o o 11' -11 ; t. ■/.. r -/. 11111 1 1 tn (-. (h M Hi OJ OJ 4) 4) o a a a a a oowoo fl d 01 01 V 0J P.O. a d o a) iaa o Q < « O ►J o o T) PtT'C O 4) £ OJ a a 'Sc'Sc a a WW Is t- >- ~ f-> oj aj oj © a a a a g e 0)5 .5 > >0 sfs > POQ m 000'* OOO n OOO OJ wcmcoO OJ ^5 ^h^i-- 6 K s I i3 oj o ill ~ t- lH OJ 4> 0) a a a m OJ O) OJ 3 H igwSHSii.^-. o S 5 jC :-5 O a ZO ZO 9 o 3* ° a -< § y to a t» OP 3 §l Ml a o oil 29 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. 8. si o ° o. si 5 w o to- ol w a (U OJ w u> 1111 H) (u qj iy \u 11111 ■agS ■3 g.S S 2 . 8> £aa - .13 p in-rt < > :aSSc ■bS^S i » oj » ' t- r- t - J S> bO !> "3 d« a o O a> O .a .ja . MM 0) «0 Oh ft . hflO M I 1 "Seng's Has is s --sS ■ o ■ a H H W 3 a .S'C ©.to © a -: w*a n © © m a> H H S £ A ~ o 9 & ft'3,2 Cm a »-S o|'B ft "S w W to o o « 1 1 111 e e E E a <- S3 S a . t-H ill! ■S H §H o fl, S-2o -n on i- oj (-. £s6 -=T3 >- a o 01 ■si 6S 9 S° ago 1? s » ° « ■3;3-a?a> •z, o > 3 H u a D. a a ca C] ■M lO CO iO io f3 io ira CD a B|g :! o oo b^i b bi ii ;c a a a : -d-3J3 gS§ ■ lO^f- ■H0N ■N£5 — ' ■ .8 h o.S S a a IS CI H H H a S S-a... |giS-&-a s . 9« 3 ago fl|i K . O H O Z 8.3 o « 2 a SE ■< oPm c " 30 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. u S w CO w w w o g w CO U o 3 o o .Oe O Q. «^ 6 _^ 1 1 1 1 1 11 o o o o o o O O o o oo oo L- CO u CD a co G 0) tU CD fta 1C CO o CD O o oo oo 5 3 n . a "M.go xi . et ■ « : TJ ft) 13 "SB oil O<0 a o if-' -13 ^ « » a "3) S'SH H wg »£ a fl d a o o § 03 ^ o a) n-jgS H«1 <-. t-r Gft ft) ft) BPhW ml PSo 2*" S N Hoa -.« 3 " S * § =3 O O O g < 9 w o ss 31 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. . a>o Paid pro rata Computed periods of minutes. t- <~ M o o o S3d S3 » ■3 CM 1 w to © a o H to III ooo O O o U L, '— V ID V P. CO. io«o iii SjSo s-9 J3j5 OO 'o'o -d-a t- i- 5.S oo 'o'o ai to ftft & a (NO «- 9 Sen wfeaa IK is 3S -~ in J3.S OO "So aa (* I So *. ° 13 &1 ■ss* "1-S «35§ 2 S ' ° - Is- 2 .sl M*** CD o o ft ^ m co ft'3^ — . cd^3 w CO O a d -w -o d So ;fe ;gO ■*" m ' * "U3 bj co P .CQ . £ § oStj : H -eB oE llll OOOO o o o o Oj Si (0 a) -CdT>T3 t- t- t- <- ft ft &ft OOOO # -^ io m m to cd §s s - lis W 10 CO _ CD O 9 d 3 •S £'5c CL H H 5J o h h iSS£6M_ e« a o z a a " h ri 3 « n ft 5$ 32 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. P4 ft Oh o c c o o 2 x rJ^X MM OC oo c o o >>>. >, >>;» c3 c XJX x XlXl CO H ftP- ft ft ft 7, iO»r CO mo r^o W c CNO >-t TjHT} & O «e# M « »■» P s o H -1 o >> P o o a o 03 d xi ee O Six X! r r" S to * So Oxj c 1 C >- < o a a) CO ftga 131 is « o 2 n . ■"So O ft) H » "1-1 s| si < 1- M 3 3 O O aa « o ON w o g w CO I— I w o H CO o o o o 1- I- i- fc- 03 a> CD p ZiZiO ^ 0h — oi m ooo ooo ^ *- b v a> i ftftft www feci £"0 ■21s S -a c a a 3 3^ , 3 o S3 g s a? 2« o a £ On J S s s3 33 Engineers' Exhibit No. 4. -c o •3-° w o g w CO O o to PS •a 5 o o I* SO 0t3 m E 2 O O O OS eS * T3T3T3 >- >- ^ o a> £ C.ft» j§o£ a v EE .= 5 O ■3«i PM w o £ w CO O 'I 1 a 'a o o o go o o 3 « .si .a ^ oo o o 'o'o o *3 » «■ ee ' e3pf ' -*a oi .T3"* .'-Q^ *S§ ill :*8 _0-^> 5 H iJ ►J ■«! > - (4 3 O U o O U o o o o go 1 1 00 E CO CJ 1 tn 1 co co 11 3 O 3 O o o o o o o oo t-< V n a u ID ft 1- t- ftp. 3 O 3 »0 o 1> O oo oo ■* » o co j5S '"Sa" „ o o w ov3^S > " » o" -o E a o Si «-« g-o D •a a h RE ^ o ;o l - ^ l n O c : £ - H O off SS13-S-3S l»«a P rt -8"o° 8 g Dl, ho Cars 'assen ied in t- CD 00 CM CO CO y-A lO t~ 00 i-H H CO enger ,000 F Carr CO CO m CD CD m o t~ CO m ■* in in 5£3 So .1 eu'43 Ph o Jg ■l3 O CD OS O CO CD 00 ■* 00 ■* t^ m OC' OS' "> *tf 00 CO 00 CO OS tH. >o CO CD o CM in O0~ CD O co" O cm" CO 00~ 00 CO" CM cm" o co" o" OS O •*" 1> f~" CO 00" CO CO~ !M OS f- 1-i i> 00 t~ CO o oc r~ O •* 00 m r~ o CO 00 m o_ 00 hH t~ OS CO •* ■& 00 ■+S §!> ■*" 00" as" f- _ t-" 1>" CO m ■* lO t» CO CO h a &H fLl-g T3 S .23 o Eh CS as •• ■* i— i OS 00 o IO Tt> 00 •* as o m o ■* .— 1 s w lO 00 EO J-i 00 o CO in CO Eh o ©_ o_ CM 00 CO » -* in 00 m CO 0~ r-T co" cm" 00 cs" o~ lO t— " co" co" cm" m" m" co" in CD 00 CO ■* in C) CM CO CO m ■* •* ' m S S.SP O T-t ^ i> m t~ S^ £ CD os 05 CO CM CM CO OS CO ■* t^ CO t~ 00 u> •*" oo" co" Co" 00 l> o >o OO CO ^< m in 00 S«S'' iS o c~ o m t~ CO tH. o CO 00 m Ji O CO CO CM CM °t 1—1 "O 1>- o ^J> o_ CO CM T-H g><- K OS co- cm" cm" 1-T CM CM (N cm" CM co" CM CM CM s s CO m -a CD 'Ek,* ci Mj> Ell §£§ S h o co Tf CD 00 os Tj< i-H t^ CO o 00 CM g CD in in 00 Tf t~ i-H CO CM 00 CM 00 •* Tt< CM_ -* 00 co_ CD OS CM OS CO ■* CM as m CO oo" cm" ■*" co- CO CO OS CO lO CO o CO tH CO o .-H m in •o CO (N CO •* «s r~ CO CD SL»iJ ?JpH Cm 03 - 3 |s rt =^ CO T)H •n CD t^ CO OS C) as HJ . ce . co : OS o as CO o as V^JOS OS o i-i as 03 !^ c a a P. p. Oh Oh Oh Q. Oh ■od ost-i -*^ OS '"3-" i— i T— 1 ^ t t-iO 3 o 3 o 3 o 3 o 3 o 3 O g 3 O § 3 o OS od go Eh Eh Eh Eh Eh Eh tH Eh u Eh 3 O o O 5 o o o o o P t-5 p 36 Engineers' Exhibit 5. EMPLOYES BY GROUPS PER 100 MILES OF LINE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Officers 2 3 2 3 2 2 1 ' 2 3 2 Engineers 43 62 41 23 18 24 16 19 13 18 Firemen 43 66 43 25 18 25 17 20 14 19 Conductors 37 48 33 18 14 16 13 13 11 13 Trainmen 105 133 84 43 38 53 33 33 30 40 37 Engineers' Exhibit No. 6. (See testimony, page 48.) RATES OF WAGES PAID THE DIFFERENT CLASSES OF SKILLED LABOR IN AND AROUND NEW YORK FOR THE YEAR 1910. Stonecutters and Helpers: Day Bluestone 8 hrs. Helpers 8 Granite 8 Helpers 8 Marble 8 Helpers 8 Sculptors and Carvers 8 Per Hour Per Day .56Ji S4.50 ■37^ 3.00 .56M 4.50 .50 4.00 .68^ 5.50 .37^ 3.00 .68M 5.50 Building and Paving Trades: Asbestos Workers 8 " Insulators 8 " Helpers 8 " Hod Carriers 8 " Bricklayers and Stonecutters 8 " Curb Setters 8 " Plasterers 8 " Brick Handlers 8 " : and Joiners 8 1" Apprentices 8 " Cement Masons 8 i" Stone Pavers 8 " Sign Painters 8 " Painters and Paperhangers 8^" Decorators 8 " Hardwood Finishers 8 " 56^ 4.50 56M 4.50 35 2.80 37H 3.00 70 5.60 56H 4.50 70 5.60 50 4.00 56M 4.50 .62^ 5.00 40 3.20 62H 5.00 62^ 5.00 56M 4.50 50 4.00 62H 5.00 50 4.00 38 Engineers' Exhibit No. 6. Steamshovelmen, Derrickmen and Riggers: Day Riggers 8 hrs. First Engineer 8 " $175 Firemen 8 " 70, Electrical Workers: Electrical Workers 8 " Helpers 8 " Cable Splicers 8 " Telephone Linemen: 8 and 9 " Elevator Constructors: Constructors 8 " Framers 8 " Guilders 8 " House Shorers 8 " Structural Iron Finishers: Erectors, Riveters and Finishers 8 " Helpers 8 " Plumbers, Gas and Steamfitters: Plumbers 8 " -'•Helpers 8 " Apprentices 8 " Steam and Hot Water Fitters 8 " Plumbers' Laborer 8 " Rock Drillers 8 " Tool Sharpeners 8 " •'■■ Roofers, Slate and Tile 8 "• Stair Builders 8 " ' ■ Stone Setters 8 " • ■ • Tile Layers 8 " Helpers 8 " '' • Lathers, Metal 8 " f ' (l - Lathers, Wood 8 " ' •' ■• Millwrights 8 " Per Hour Per Day .46% $3.75 00 per month 00 per month .56% 4.50 ■27 l A 2.20 .56% 4.50 $3.50 and 4.00 .62% 5.00 56% 4.50 .56% 4.50 43% 3.50 .62% 5.00 .43% 3.50 ■62% 5.00 50 4.00 46% 3.75 62% 5:00 37% 3.00 43% 3.50 43% 3.50 56% 4.50 62% 5.00 68% 5.50 62% 5.00 37% 3.00 60 4.80 56% 4.50 56% 4.50 39 Engineers' Exhibit No. 7. (See testimony, page 58.) Blue Print. Westinghouse Electric & Mfg. Co. Diagram of con- nections, — main and control wiring, — units switch control system, — Mallet Loco. A. C. and D. C— 8 motor, No. 069, N. Y., N. H. & H. R. R. Co. (236960) Engineers' Exhibit No. 8. (See testimony, page 58.) Blue Print. Westinghouse Electric & Mfg. Co. Diagram of con- nections main and control wiring, — A. C, D. C, Locomotive, N. Y.,N.H. & H. R. R. (A184375) 40 Engineers' Exhibit 9. (See testimony, page 62.) STATISTICS OF RAILWAYS IN THE UNITED STATES SHOWING AVERAGE DAILY WAGE Group No. 1 1910 Report. (Page 39) Connecticut Massachusetts Maine New Hampshire Vermont Rhode Island Class 1900 1910 Increase 10.70 17.09 6.39 3.48 3.97 .49 1.97 2.35 .38 1.94 2.49 .55 2.97 3.52 .55 Percentage Increase General Officers . Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .59-71/100% .14-11/100% .18-63/100% .28-35/100% .18-51/100% New York, New Jersey, Group No. 2 1910 Report. (Page 39) Delaware, (Pennsylvania, except small Maryland, portion in N. W. Corner) Class 1900 1910 Increase 11.25 16.74 5.49 3.62 4.53 .91 2.05 2.75 .70 1.90 2.71 .81 2.97 3.74 .77 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .48- 8/10 % .25-14/100% .34-14/100% .42-63/100% .25-92/100% Group No. 3 1910 Report. (Page 40) Indiana, Pennsylvania (portion N. W. Corner) Michigan, except Nor. Pen., and Ohio. Class 1900 1910 Increase 10.12 14.10 3.98 3.67 4.34 .67 2.09 2.57 .46 2.04 2.72 .68 3.14 3.73 .59 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .39-32/100% .18-25/100% .22-96/100% .33-1/3 % .18-79/100% 41 Engineers' Exhibit 9. Group No. 4 1910 Report. (Page 40) Virginia North Carolina West Virginia South Carolina Class 1900 1910 Increase Percentage Increase 6.92 3.76 1.75 1.52 2.97 10.95 4.34 2.16 1.89 3.38 4.03 .58 .41 .37 .41 .58-23/100% .15^2/100% .23-42/100% .24-34/100% .13- 8/10 % Firemen Trainmen Conductors Group No. 5 1910 Report. (Page 41) Kentucky Mississippi Georgia Tennessee Alabama Florida Class 1900 1910 Increase 9.49 10.61 1.12 3.88 4.81 .93 1.95 2.42 .47 1.75 2.18 .43 3.12 3.79 .67 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .11-8/10 % .24- % .24-61/100% .24-57/100% .21^7/100% Group No. 6 1910 Report. (Page 41) Illinois, Iowa, Northern half of Missouri, Nor. Pen., Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Eastern half of North and South Dakota. Class 1900 1910 Increase 12.59 15.80 3.21 3.68 4.58 .90 2.23 2.84 .61 2.00 2.81 .81 3.29 4.12 .83 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .25-32/100% .24-45/100% .27-35/100% .40- 5/10 % .25-22/100% 42 Engineers' Exhibit 9. Montana, Wyoming, Group No. 7 1910 Report. (Page 42) Northern portion of Coloradd, Western portion of North and South Dakota. Nebraska, Class 1900 1910 Increase 9.61 15.54 5.93 3.90 4.72 .82 2.32 3.14 .82 2.20 2.86 .66 3.38 4.16 .78 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .61-7/10 % .23-59/100% .35-77/100% !30 % .23-07/100% Group No. 8 1910 Report. (Page 42) Colorado, North portion of New Mexico, Kansas, Arkansas, South half of Missouri. Oklahoma. Class 1900 1910 Increase 10.85 12.34 1.49 3.91 4.75 .84 2.38 3.13 .75 2.12 2.84 .72 3.42 4.38 .96 Percentage Increase General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .13-65/100% .21-49/100% .31-51/100% .33-44/100% .28-09/100% Group No. 9 1910 Report. (Page 43) Texas. Part of New Mexico. Class 1900 1910 Increase Percentage Increase 6.93 4.10 2.40 2.26 3.62 7.62 4.87 3.03 3.00 4.59 .69 .77 .63 .74 .97 .09-95/100% .18-78/100% .20-79/100% .24-66/100% .26-79/100% Firemen 43 Engineers' Exhibit 9. Group No. 10 1910 Report. (Page 43) California, Washington, Oregon, Utah, Part of Idaho, and New Mexico, Arizona. Class 1900 1910 Increase « 11.05 12.40 1.35 4.53 4.84 .31 2.40 3.03 .63 2.26 3.00 .74 3.62 4.59 .97 Percentage Increas General Officers Engineers Firemen Trainmen Conductors .09-74/100% .06-84/100% .26-25/100% .32-74/100% .26-79/100% 44 Engineers' Exhibit 10. (See testimony, page 62.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Shore Line Division List of Locomotive engineers injured or killed by electricity since it was installed on New Haven System. 1908 Engineer Charles Phillips, got out on running board to clean out sand pipes; head touched the overhead feed wire which carries 11000 volts, and was killed out- right. 1909 Engineer Burch, at Stamford, Connecticut, got out on step of engine to arrange pantagraph locks with a pole 10 feet long, used for this purpose, current leaping across pole and grounded through his body, was taken to hospital where he died. 1909 Engineer Fred Elliott, at Stamford, Conn., got on top of his engine to adjust bell ringer, came in contact with live wire. His hands, arms and face so badly burned he was off duty for sixty days, hand will be crippled for life. 1910 Engineer Maxwell, at Stamford, Conn'., repairing a switch in switch group, finger burned so badly lost one joint. 1910 Engineer J. D. Eomer, at Grand Central Terminal, New York, while testing out the battery current on multiple unit train, was badly burned on face, hands and arm on account of current leaping across on carbon dust which set fire to bis clothing. This accident occurred on direct current and he was laid up over two months. 1911 Engineer James Coyle, at New Canaan, Conn., lost his life by coming in contact with 11000 volts live wire while pulling nut of sid ; ng and closing contact switch. 1911 Engineer Levi Rude, at New Rochelle, N. Y., killed in- stantly by overhead wire while fixing bell line. 1911 Engineer John Bottomly, at Larchmont, N. Y., while on the tender of his engine came in contact with live wire of 11000 volts which grounded through his body kill- ing him instantly. 45 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. See Testimony, page 62.) TRAIN OPERATION. 98. General. — The apparatus will be inspected and the train put in condition for operation by the inspectors, but the motorman will be held responsible for the operation of the ap- paratus while in his charge, and he must familiarize himself with the location, use and operation of all apparatus on the cars, and carefully follow the instructions below: 99. Preparations for Starting. — When the train is turned over to the motorman, he should, First. — Pass along the outside of the train, carefully examining the buss line and train cable jumpers between the cars, to assure himself that all connections are prop- erly made and that train switches are closed. Second. — Pass through the train, closing air compressor and third rail switches in each car, and opening master control switches in each car except head car or car from which train is to be operated. Third. — Pass along outside of train again and satisfy himself that the air compressors are working properly. Fourth. — Take position in the motorman 's compart- ment at forward end of train, noting the brake pipe pres- sure, which should be seventy pounds, and close master controller switch. The circuit breakers should then be closed by moving the circuit breaker switch over the mas, ter controller «to the "ON" position— holding it there about one second to allow time for all circuit breakers to close. Fifth.— Test the brakes as required by "Air Brake In- struction," making upon request of the trainmen or in- spectors, a full service application (twenty-five (25) pound reduction in pressure) holding them on until the trainmen or inspectors have examined the brakes on each car. 46 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. If the brakes are found in proper condition, trainmen or in- spectors shall signal the motorman from the rear of the train, who will then release the brakes. The test is not complete until the trainmen or inspectors have reexamined the brakes, which should be done as quickly as possible, to see that they have released properly, after which the inspector must report their condition to the motorman. No at- tempt should be made to start the train before the brakes are fully released, as excessive current will thereby be drawn, through the motor resistances rendering them liable to serious damage. The train is now ready to be started. STATEMENTS FROM ENGINEERS AND MOTORMEN IN ELECTRIC SERVICE ON THE WEST JERSEY AND SEASHORE R. R. Statement of Engineer Walter Jenkins : While running train 1016, by placing my feet on the heater J received a very severe shock which burned my feet so that I was unable to wolk for 10 days. Statement of Richard S. Dougherty : I have heen knocked off my stool by. a shock from a grounded heater switch and have had several severe shocks while sepa- rating bus line jumpers, on account of grounded sockets and bare wires, T was also knocked from cab roof on car 6755 one wet day after renewing a blown roof fuse, on account of something being wrong, and I have never found out the real cause, and I will add the same has happened to most of us. We never know when it is coming as there are no indications of anything being wrong until we feel it. Statement of D. W. R. Vanaman: In regard to injury and shock while in electric service I will say that when a man is started by a signal from the conductor, it is his desire to make time and if anything to repair and get away with as little detention as possible. I had a case where I was stopped by signals from conductors and notified that there was something dragging under my train. On making examination I found a guard rod broken under the motor truck. This guard 47 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. rod is bolted to the stay plates on each side of the truck. It broke near the left side leaving one end down on the ground. The bolts on the right side were in a condition which caused me to think the quickest way was to take it off. I got my stilson wrench to see if 1 could turn the bolt off, and lay down on my side fitting the wrench to the bolt head; in putting a strain on the wrench to turn the bolt, wrench slipped, either striking or going so close to the third rail show bolt that the current took the wrench, putting up short circuit, causing a large arc or flame which burned both my hands so badly that I was compelled to remain off duty 10 days. The liability or injury, in my judgment, on the front end of electric train is 10 to 1 to a man running a locomotive, as the motorman on the majority of our cars on electric trains have about 30 square feet of glass to protect them from whatever gets in the way. Statement of F. T. Price : In my experience as motorman on the electric cars I will say that it is a very common thing to receive slight shocks when the vestibules are wet, in adjusting switchboards. I recall one time in particular, I received a severe shock pulling switches to put train away for the night. I have also been severely shocked from grounded heater switches and from putting in new bulb in head lamps and adjusting covers over gauge lamps. I recall one in- stance where brakeman Howard Thompson was very severely burned about the face and neck in pulling a bus line jumper, which is the motorman 's duty at all times except at large terminals. An- other very dangerous duty the motorman has to perform isreplac- ing third rail fuse as we are compelled to work very close to the third rail, making it very dangerous, especially in wet weather. On the 27th of Dec, 1910, 1 was stalled in a snow bank with train 1001, I was cleaning the ice from under the third rail shoe when my eyes were burned from the arcing which caused me considerable suf- fering -and I was compelled to wear colored glasses for several days. Statement of B. C. Madaral : It has been my experience that the duties of motormen are equally if not more hazardous than when acting as a locomotive engineer. Shocks and burns are received from unexpected quar- 48 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. ters and you never know what you are going to get, when open- ing the cupboards to manipulate the switchboards shocks are often received of sufficient force to knock you down, due to the steel cupboard being charged and there is no way of detecting it until you touch it. Shocks are received from coming in contact with cab heaters, gauge light covers and headlight guards. These dangers are increased materially during wet weather, and it is hazardous to come in contact with any of the metal fixtures dur- ing such period. Statement of Wm. G. Grand : In running electric trains I have on several occasions re- ceived some hard shocks. On train 1025 when they first put the electric whistle on and the conductor pulled the whistle when I had my foot on the resistance stool and I got all there was in the wire. I have also received several shocks in putting in headlight bulbs. Statement of Frank Parker : On running one of the Atlantic City trains out of that ter- minal one evening I received a shock that threw me from the platform of the car down on the passenger platform. They had placed another car on front of train and I was in a hurry to fasten front door and in taking hold of the bolts to fasten the door I touched the master control switch box with one hand and had the other hand on the brake handle and received a shock which threw me to the ground platform, there being no indication to me that this switch box was charged until I touched it. In switching cars enroute the engineer is always compelled to pull bus line and train cable or couple them up. Many of the men have received shocks and have been burned doing, this kind of work. If there is any trouble in the poles or fuse on top of the car the engineer must go to the roof to make repairs and in stormy weather it is extremely dangerous. I have been com- pelled to go to a doctor for treatment to my eyes caused by the burn or glare from arcs formed while I was cleaning ice from the third rail shoe. Statement of George Ludlam : I wish to state that I have received several shocks from grounded cab heaters, in one case on a rainy day I put my foot on the heater and was knocked from the stool and the train came 49 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. to a full stop before I could straighten myself out. Have had several shocks in handling switches and switchboards ; only a few nights ago it was raining and the controller and everything in the motorman's apartment was wet. I tried to adjust the gauge lamp and I found that it was charged. In attempting to put the control key in the controller I found that it also was charged, which compelled me to use a pair of gloves and get up on my stool keeping my feet up off the floor to run the train in. We have no way of detecting these conditions until we feel them, Motormen are not compelled or required to pull bus line jumpers at terminals but they are required to pull them at outlaying joints when we have cars to drill off. I know of one case where car inspector pulled a jumper and received a shock which threw him out on the platform, burned and nearly blinded him. He was picked up and sent home where he was compelled to wear a mask, covering his face and eyes for several days. This would have happened the motorman just as readily if he had occasion to handle jumper. Anybody that handles these cars are liable to be shocked and burned at all times. Statement of S. E. Stinson: In my experience in both electric and steam service I would say that I consider the front end of the electric train very much more dangerous than the locomotive. On several occasions I have narrowly missed striking vehicles which would undoubtedly have crushed the front of car had I struck them. On one occa- sion at night I had an owl strike the glass at the front end break- ing the glass and cutting my wrist severely. Had it been a little higher up it no doubt would have badly cut my face and possibly ruined my eyes. I have frequently received shocks from renew- ing headlight globes, platform lights and circuit switches or switch covers on the front end of car. I consider it extremely dangerous to go on top of the car at night to renew trolley fuse and yet this duty must be performed by the motormen if fuse are burned out. In cases of sleet storms I find it very hard on the eyes as they are exposed to the full glare of the light caused by the arcing. Statement of S. L. Allen : In coming from Camden about three years ago I struck a horse and carriage, demolishing the carriage and the horse com- ing through the front end vestibule doors. 50 Engineers' Exhibit 10a. Statement of P. J. Sullivan : I was in the electric service for about five years and it was a common occurrence to receive shocks from examining fuses which was the motorman's duty, also removing and replacing bus line and train cable jumpers and making any kind of change of your train enroute. Statement of Walter Howey : Referring to my experience in running electric trains, after striking a lumber wagon which broke in the front end of the car I do not think they are a very desirable run. I consider it very dangerous running at night in these small vestibules, a man hav- ing a poor chance getting out should they strike a wagon or any- thing of this kind. I am now running a freight train in prefer- ence to electric service on account of this. Statement of M. T. Kennedy: In Januaiy last I found the third and running rails on fire, apparently started by an iron falling from the train against the third rail, the carbon in the cinder ballast on the road bed making a circuit from the third rail to the running rails causing the fire. After putting out the fire with the extinguisher provided for that purpose on the train, my eyes were burned so badly that it was necessary for the doctor to treat them and wear dark glasses, the pain being so great that I was unable to read a newspaper for several days. Statement of L. Gr. Haines : There are a great many unexpected dangers in connection with a motorman's duty working in or about his train, we receive shocks in many different ways and in a great many instances we do not know which way they come. I have experienced in several cases where the grab irons were charged at the end of the car so it would sting so bad that it would make you dance to touch it. It is very common to receive shocks from switches, changing the fuses, etc., I have received a shock from the headlight, I do not know to this day how I got it, and I have been one-half to three- quarters of a minute before I could realize where I was or what I was doing; have also received flash from third rail that would lilind me for a few minutes. 51 3 s * 9 g o ^ ^ z O £ £> < ^ P m j 1PM X a. ILROAD D, BOSI F PITTS , CLEVE s OS Ed :io RA ILROA] 'EST ILWAY CQ § o ffi < g < K «M O & ai a BALTIMORE & & HARTFORD YLVANIA LINE AN SOUTHERN OUIS RAILWAY a CM ri 1«N O 95 95 U H z as Ed CQ § * 33 U BS g g fa m n j o > 10 fl OF RAILROAD EW HAVEN *OAD, PENN RE & MICHI IIAGO & ST. m O a A Si ■a °: g s e S. u 0) a a « y > SHOWN BY 1 LY RE ?OR THE MONTH! 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CM ■* "tf 00 O CO © SO -* es. ■d to CM SO cm CO CM r^ CO iO ■<& CM o © © © o © CM •* > N o ■>* © SD SO r-t © o © o © © CO CO t^ ---CM c-x CO CO (N --."^ OJ-"-. ©"-- Tt* cc Tf _, ■^ ,_, CO 00 as so ■* OJ 'O o SO cc CO 00 00 CO M O © o © o o © © l> CO © ---..-< CO CO "SH t>. "--•* r-l 00--. OS<- i-H co a> OS _ CM ,_, o CO ■* O >o 00 CM 00 t- CM 00 t^ CM 00 00 OS o © o © o © CO eo © SO --^.-i CM. CM ■* IO >o SO ---CO |>--^ CM oo--. co SO SO CO Os CM CO fr» SO GO o ^t- lO CO yfi so SO CO -t t-- as (N 00 © o o © o o SO CO o ---tH CO co CO OS "--.CO SO--- t^--- i-l CO IN CM i-H 3 O a OS I i 3 a 1 P. > H fcH -2 ■9 3 a o o © I fa a 3 < 1 Oh CO ■§ o o is i > o ! © Q © i i s ■s 4 * a •a O 53 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. CO 3-- o o © O o © © rH © ^ r*. to" 60 o o o © © o o CM © CM CO CD "--.CO US--. eo o o o o o © rt © o 1 § eo--. o o o o 1-H © o © o ^, o CO o a CO ---CO o o o o © o o - © i-H z CO m CM ---CO H o o o o © o _l O o ^ H ~H~--. s t-H CO CO T-H --.CO o o © © o o o CM O CD 8 & CO 09 3 O -J3 OS"-- o - - © CM o CM - o t- 8 * X a ~--CN CO"--. o - o o - © CM ?) © CO »S o CN -i o "P 00 o CM o o o © l- CO o CN _ o h --.cm EERS 8 SERVICE .AILROAD > V r*.-^ 03 CM § h- I-l CM I-l ,_, o © os CO CN CM O --.tN CM .9 CM "S CD i-l o o a cm ^ CM ■* rt CO o --.CM CN ENGIN TlNUOU OHIO B O US'-- CN *o US © CM CM ^ •* CO CO CD CO t- 09 13 O CM •<** Z "8 0) ** •* CO CM r-t ■* CO CO r- CM OS 8g ~--CN ->** OS CO"-- CM fa o CO CO CM 30 CO us 30 r- r- iO CO o S ---CN CN"-- ""• ■* 1-1 ^ CO Z CQ CM CN CO CM CM o •* CO CM CO CO 00 "--CM 00 CO CN © i-i--^ CM CN 6h i-t X CO US OS ■* t> r- CO ■* CO GO "■-cN CM T-l CM CN ^ LO CO CM Z M ©--. CM *" CO O z o CO tH CO US t- r- o 70 CN •* "--CM CM •* CO •* •* ti f- OS US lO as--* f-c us w o OS CO CO o CM CO o US O t> ---i-H ■* r- « CO OS © CO r- a go g oo--. CM © i-i 00 OS OS lO _ -1 OS 00 r-t X ,_, ■-—-I os CM iO CD os CM t^ CD (M t-."-- •* CM t> « ~H Z r- CO i— ( i-H ^ CM t- r-- _ •* t- --..-t o CM CO •* CM cO os CO CO •* CM CM •* I-l oi a o a rH os I-» 1 < £ 4) 1 a 87 ■it Xi c o a s a) > o o s a o V Q OS I-H g S3 *-> >> t- =J O u E=i .£3 o u © c 1 CO o ■< C > t^ i>^ CN m 3 O o c i-H * rH CO CM T H C 9 CN CO^ CN a CO ~--.CN o o o c 9 Tt< ^ CN c 1 C in t-H CM CO CO »n ~" 3 •^.IM © c & rH co r~ r- Tt CO o co^- CM CO o w 13 CO ~--CM o c ira c ■* 00 r^ o a 00 _o CN^ ■^ CM -H t~ CD c t> CM ^-CN CO o CN t ^ ■* Tj Ol tr 1> o CM o i- ■* 1-1 r " tH CM CO o T- ■* CN O 00 If i0 c CM ■O Ol if c "5 ^CM CO -tf CO >o »o c C" i-H Ol^ CO Ol 09 oc ira ■*t i-H Ol Ol c c o --.I-l GO 1 --. CM ■>* -# IT 00 © 00 T tt CO U3 00 l> o O o CM IT o - iO >o c Ol !r ■* CO CD c c t»- C-"^- " ^ © r-. 00 ir "O c t>. 1-- N CC 00 50 T 09 c 5D CI 09 a: ir- CO " v >- c CM CM CM Ol CM j3. Ol Xi 1 & CO C3 "3 O CI I +■ 5 < 4 c c C 0) 1 1 1 CO a 0> o 0) I § i X i S 55 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. PS D O W H W 53 Z co O CO O H 9 Q X < H § Sd O « > Q m PS « 2 H ° H 59 pS Z g -< SS* o > cq a o £ o z >* is IS o w CO 9 m <■! Eh "•-co CO""- CO o O O O o o O o - - CO --.CO CN--- CO - O o o o o o o © - -^CO CO © O o © o o o a - - o "-.CO OS^ CN o O o o © o o - c t- a X £ a c. a c CN I 3 e "-s > i- 2 1 X c a i "3 56 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. to as P o B Z H H E- o |8 o lis w bo I 5C< Sort 55Z@ z3 oS °l §g O O z m CO Z 1— I o z I— I o w 02 H « ^ ~^-eo o c o c o © o c i-( O"^. CQ 00 © c o c o o o o ^ o--. EN CO --..CN o c © o o o o c W o--. i-i*-. CM pi o O ,— I --.CN o c eo CO p- CO "o CN rt cc TJ O O ~--CN CN CO CN Tt o 00"-- ira 00 --^.I-l oO f CO o CO CD o 00 t-*-- i-H CO CN cr CN ■- 1 r-l r~ --.i-l Oi u* cs OC CO CO 00 CN o* CO to--. l-i i-H CO CN CN "* CN i-H p o § ►-a 4- < If f t CO F- (1 X c -4- «. c s I o 1 o o Q I 1 •-3 i 3 ■s C (- ft S 57 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. to PS P o w S3 w H Eh O QQ CO S . HZ gPn "s So So a 2 J 1§3 gP3 S3g«; a ^ h o5 oS og to z H § og S3 < g o 2 O SB m H ►J m CO "--■"*< o c 3 o c 3 CM © © C 3 O f i CM"--. ^ ,_, o-- o c 3 O c 3 -« o a c 3 O -H CP> ---co o c J o c 3 ^ © © c 3 © i CO--. eo X ---co o c 3 o c 3 CM o © c 3 C 3 CM r---. CO r- co--. M c c 3 O c 3 CM o o c 3 C 3 CM CO --.co eo o c : o c 3 CM © o c : c ) CN U5 eo o c 3 •-< c 3 CM o o c 3 C > CO CO --.eo CM--- CO o c 3 O c 3 CM © © c 3 C ) CM CM ---CO c c 3 O c 3 CM o o e 1 - iO .-1--. CO !_, i "--.CO c z > o c 3 O o o c? ) C ) CM ©--. CO o F4 "~-.CC o c 3 O c 3 ■* o © c 3 i- * m OS--. a) CM "--CM o c 1 o - CM o o - ■* C > 00 4) 00""-. GC _N__ § 00 o c 3 O ■i t- o o L' ) < "**■ o --CM 1 '■+3 « O O t----- eM o H CM H « c © t- lO ---CM to--- CM o CO o 1 «H c 3 l> o o . 3 C > « m ---cm i-H *o U3-- .2 CM 'i- ws 00 _ o I- o --.CM CO 00 o--. tM O Ov c 00 c 1^ co o t- p" eo "--CM -* o t- t* OS-- 03 CO ^ CO rt _ o a - m CO CM t^ ■^ Tj CO 00--- CM ""* 00 CO oc eo cC t-- CM CO if CO « lO cC ' 00 -* o N N --.^H ■* Tf t- c CM Oi » a CN © <0"-- CM '- , cm" i-H JS C3i -+3 o I 3 •-a s < ! o. 02 t- a c c c 1 o I cd cc E a (a 1 58 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. « P O B Z 1=1 !» 1=1 Z H -51 * Ph 03 s o 1=1 o u CO CO H < is U H Z P « CO H H < hi W Ph o Z % « H u 1=1 t/J H z N rfl is o r P •8 i- < ) c. P l-J z z z 1h o (£ w 1-1 PS H Z d o O z a h > z O l-J ■* X CM c u a. X! a CM* i-l OS I a 3" § 1-9 i b J- > Ti *- c f- 59 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. a a o a % a » o CO EC H o X W £ is a g > o a> tf ° g S n a a» o *§§ l-H O ^ o o a z, z < g 8 O 03 O •< r K fe ■«! ° (S 03 B o «! H CQ g o IS is o a a m 1 I-» i ,"-.T}1 — O "- 1 c o o o o o ^ 1 V 1 n "-.CO o o o o o o o l-l o <-l ■o © ^~co ■o o o c c o o © *-< o '- , | CC "--CO CM"-- m o o "- 1 o o - o o *-' CM 1 CM 1 "-co o c e o o a o o CO ^ ""--CO o o c o — o c o\ CO o ^-.eo o c o m o _ o _, CM O"-. 04 "■-CM o o o c o CI o o o CM «"-- 1-1 CO CM t- IN l> IN CD o t- ^ cO"-. to 5 Tf -*t m O Cft t- ■"' T-t *** 1-1 CO CM c c 7 3 "-a 5 < a c -1- c. c 1 1 u CJ £> B o Q I <- o3 =1 £> o s o H 60 Engineers' Exhibit -No. 11. PS p o a z E» O Oh si 8 :* H a <: & 3 o ^ w M gg 5 o o M rH O ift c c c •H c c »H iO ^ --.-- c c c c rH c c i-l "* ^ ^ ---- c c c iH c c co ■* CO --.Ttl c c c CN T— c CO CN--- Tt< CN c c rH c c iH ■* ~--Tfl c c c ^ c c iH 0-- ■* c c CN c c CO --co c CM t~-- 03 --.co c c r-i c c cD--. CO CO "--CO c c rH ^ irj-- CO --co CO c c rH CN CO --CO c c rH CO"-- CO CO "~-.CO W-- CO - c CN O CM CI --CO c CN O CN rH--. H CO c td Sr5L c rt CN c CO a CO ^g c i-H ^ O CN OS-- CN OQ OS 1 --CN c rH ift CO O d IN 00 1—1 c i-H K> CO ,_, _ ■5 -- CN TH "--CN CO CN-- CN ra ,_, c CN CM CN i> CO CO ---CM co t>- 0--. CN O CO c CO CN CN ift 0C CO r- -^CN CN CC CN os os--. *-i OS 00^. rH « r-t "* m •ft CO 3 5 CO *- 1 00 O c "ft CN •* CO CO CT ir CO 0-- CN CO C 1— cc CO t^ 00 CN OS CN IS OS t* P* OC Ift "^.tH CD-- 00 Tt» CC * CM CN CN i-H ji i OS I-l "3 i-H OS I t t si 1 11 a X c t t 1 si 1 1 V a tf E e 1 ' 1 i "b 1 61 Engineers' Exhibit No. 11. P o n s* ^ H -* Kg °o u 3 * S a 3 w B 2S ggfc Sod" 8 ■ — !^ ■**; IB ° sz; as oS !b a S° go" g^ sz a §3 £ (3 (a a o to to PS P P iJ ° 2 « S g w 2" 9 B £ 2 H g ai 3 « & £ 3 g E ° s 15 < to « HO|o 2 o H OS z rf H S I s OS H to to P O P g H Z o o O to 8 Z 13 J 5 ■8 O o PC Z a '"i S P< SI ■> O Z ■8 a 2 ■8 m c a p. ■a t/" d a 00 ■513 So c o CN CO to CD o o o o T-H o ^ - © o O OS"--. CO o 1— 1 o o o o o o o o o o 1 o PS PS PS w ■8 d Z pi d M pj CD •c w pi w w pi s pj 1 % CD p. tab 1 'o is in s a & Ph C4 pi 1 •s s -8 pi pi »J ■e d d d •3 1 CtJ o G3 Engineers' Exhibits 12 — 15. Engineers' Exhibit No. 12. (See testimony, page 107.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Application blank and instructions. Engineers' Exhibit No. 13. (See testimony, page 107.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Instructions for examiners. Engineers' Exhibit No. 14. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Book of questions for first year examination for firemen. Engineers' Exhibit No. 15. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Book of questions for second year examination for firemen. 64 Engineers' Exhibits 16 — 19. Engineers' Exhibit No. 16. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Book of questions for third year examination for firemen. Engineers' Exhibit No. 17. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Rules of Operating Department, January 19, 1908. Engineers' Exhibit No. 18. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Rules governing the operation and use of interlocking, block and special signals, February 1, 1912. Engineers' Exhibit No. 19. (See testimony, page 108.) July 16, 1912. | I ' (Not printed.) ' Toledo & Ohio Central Railway. Application blank. Rules governing the determination of visual acuity, color perception and hearing. Rules governing the determination of qualifications of em- ployes. Questions for examination for enginemen and firemen to be promoted. 65 Engineers' Exhibits 20 — 22. Engineers' Exhibit No. 20. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway. (Peoria and Eastern Division.) •Cincinnati Northern Railroad Company. Rules governing the determination of qualifications of em- ployes, September 15, 1909. Engineers' Exhibit No. 21. • (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Cleveland Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway. (Peoria and Eastern Division.) Rules governing the determination of the qualifications of employes, September 15, 1909. Rules governing the determination of visual acuity, etc., February 1, 1908. Examination for acuteness of vision. Application blank. Engineers' Exhibit No. 22. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway. Application blank. Educational test of applicants for position of enginemen. 66 Engineers' Exhibits 23 — 26. Engineers' Exhibit No. 23. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Lake Erie & Western Eailroad Company. Application blank. General rules. Engineers' Exhibit No. 24. (See testimony, page-169.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Lake Erie & Western Railroad Company. Application blank. General rules. Engineers' Exhibit No. 25. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Toledo & Ohio Central Railway. Zanesville & Western Railway. Application blank. Rules governing the determination of qualifications of em- ployes. Rules governing the determination of visual acuity, etc. Questions for examination of enginemen and firemen. Engineers' Exhibit No. 26. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Michigan Central Railroad. Application blank. 67 Engineers' Exhibits 27 — 30. Engineers' Exhibit No. 37. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912.. (Not printed.) Michigan Central Railroad. Application blank. Engineers' Exhibit No. 28. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. . (Not printed.) Cincinnati Northern Railroad Company. Rules governing employes, January 1, 1908. Engineers' Exhibit No. 29. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Railway. Rules governing employes, May 1, 1911. Engineers' Exhibit No. 30. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Michigan Central Railroad. Rules for' the government of Conducting Transportation Department. February 2, 1907. 68 Engineers' Exhibits 31 — 32. Engineers' Exhibit No. 31. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Lake Erie & Western Railroad Company. Rules of Operating Department, June 15, 1903. Engineers' Exhibit No 32. (See testimony, page 109.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.)* Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway. Rules for the government of the Transportation Depart- ment. 69 Engineers' Exhibit 33 July 16, 1912. (See testimony, page 110.) New York Central & Hudson River R. R. Co. WESTERN DIVISION— MAIN LINE Issue No. 14, AUTOMATIC SIGNALS E. SYRACUSE TO E. BUFFALO. LOCATION Automatic Signal Numbers. B.S. Track No. 1 Track No. 2 Track No. 3 Track No. 4 1 1A East Syracuse W. of BS-48-Straight mast N. of tracks W. of Tunnel- " " N. of tracks W. of Tunnel " " S. of tracks Syracuse W. of BS-1-Half bracket mast N. of tracks W. of BS-1-Bracket mast S. of tracks Syracuse W. of BS-lA-Half bracket mast N. of tracks W. of BS-lA-First signal bridge 28921 29i21 29221 29291 29461 29561 29661 29781 29871 33691 33881 34071 37061 28862 28912 29112 29192 29262 29462 29562 29662 29752 29872 33692 33882 34072 37052 37412 37502 37672 3700C 37021 3708; 3712C E. of BS-2-Half bracket mast N. of tracks . . . . E. of BS-2-First Signal bridge 2 Syracuse Jct. E. of Belle Isle Station- 2nd signal bridge E. of " " " 1st W. of " " " 1st " W. of " " " 2nd " " 15 W. of Belle Isle Station-3rd signal bridge Lyons Signal bridge E. of Canal Bridge 25A Rochester (Main St.) Union St.-Bracket mast N. of tracks Scio St.- " " N. of tracks North St. -Straight mast between tracks 2 & 3 ! ( 37024 28 29 30 Joseph Ave.-Bracket mast N. of tracks Clinton Ave.-Straight mast N. of tracks St. Paul St.-Bracket mast N. of tracks Center Park Ames St. Jct. B. R. & P. Connection B R & P Bridge-Over track 2 ! 37104 ! W. of BS-30-Straight mast S. of track 1 Signal bridge-W. of B. R. & P. bridge Signal bridge-E. of BS-32 37441 3767i • 70 Engineers' Exhibit S3. B.S. 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 40A LOCATION CoLDWATER Signal bridge-W. of Coldwater Station . " E. of Chili Station W. of Chili Station Chili Junction 1st signal bridge W. of BS-33 Chili Jet. . . . West of BS-33-Straight mast S. of track 1 . 2nd signal bridge W. of BS-33 Chili Jet. . . ©HURCHVILLE 1st signal bridge West of BS-34 Churchville . Straight mast W. of BS-34 S. of track 1 2nd signal bridge W. of BS-34 Straight mast S. of track 1 E. of Bergen 3rd signal bridge W. of BS-34 Bergen 1st signal bridge W. of BS-35 Bergen . 2nd " " W. of BS-35 Bergen . 1st " " E. of W. Bergen Sta. W. Bergen 2nd signal bridge W. of W. Bergen Station . 3rd " " W. ofW. " Straight mast S. of track 1 3rd signal bridge E. of BS-37 Byron Byron 1st signal bridge W. of Byron Station .... 2nd " " W. of " 3rd " " W. of " " 1st " " E. of BS-38 Byron Hill . Byron Hill 1st signal bridge W. of BS-38 Byron Hill . 2nd " " W. of BS-38 " " . 3rd " " W. of BS-38 " " . 1st signal bridge E. of BS-39 Batavia .... E. Batavia 1st signal bridge W. of BS-39 Batavia . Batavia Batavia (Walnut St) 1st signal bridge W. of Tonawanda Creek Br. 2nd 3rd 2nd 1st 1st 2nd 3rd 1st 1st 1st W. of W. of E. of W. Batavia Station E. of W. W. of W. W. of W. W. of W. E. of Ellenwood W. of Ellenwood E. of Corfu Station Automatic Signal Numbers Track No. 1 37821 38021 38221 38371 38471 38731 38841 39121 Track No. 2 39281 3942i 39701 398oi 400il 40181 40261 40471 40551 40651 40751 40841 40941 41041 41141 41231 41331 41431 37822 38022 38222 38352 38472 38672 38762 38862 39032 39122 39202 39282 39362 Track No. 3 39462 39622 39702 39782 39862 39942 40012 40102 40182 40262 40472 40552 40652 40752 40842 40942 41042 41142 41232 41332 41432 Track No. 4 Engineers' Exhibit 38. B.S. LOCATION Automatic Signal Numbers Track No. 1 Track No. 2 Track No. 3 Track No. 4 42 43 44 45 47 l*ORFTT 2nd signal bridge W. of BS-42 . . 3rd " " W. ofBS-12.. " " at Town Line. 2nd • " E. of BS-43 . . Crittenden 1st signal bridge W. of Crittenden Sta. 2nd " " W. of 3rd " " W. of " " E. of Wende Station. " " W. of " Dellwood Signal bridge-W. of Dellwood " " E. of Winspear Bridge « " W. of " " " " E. of Lancaster " " Lancaster W. of Lancaster-Straight mast N. of tracks. Signal Bridge-E. of BS-45 41561 41651 41741 41811 41951 42031 42121 42201 42301 42471 42571 42711 42801 42S91 41562 41652 41742 42032 42202 42572 42712 42892 42473 42573 42713 42803 42893 42474 42574 42714 42804 Depew W. of Depew-Bracket mast S. of tracks W. of Depew- " " N. of tracks W. of Wmsville Rd-Bracket mast N. of tracks W. of " " " " S. of tracks . E. of Forks Station " " N. of tracks W. of Forks Station-Signal Bridge E. of Harlem Ave-Bracket mast S. of tracks. . D. L. & W. Bridge, E. Bfo.-Over track 2 W. of B'dway-Straight mast S. of tracks 43051 43052 43141 4332i 43401 4357i E. Buffalo 43142 43322 43402 43562 43063 43163 43263 42904 42994 43064 43164 The first three figures of the signal numbers indicate miles from New York, the fourth figure indicates tenths of miles, and the fifth figure the number of the track. 72 Engineers' Exhibits 34 — 37. Engineers' Exhibit No. 34. (See testimony, page 110.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson Eiver Eailroad Company. (Buffalo and Rochester Division.) Time table No. 15. Engineers' Exhibit No. 35. (See testimony, page 110.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Western Division. Bulletin pamphlet No. 6, January 1, 1912. Engineers' Exhibit No. 36. (See testimony, page 110.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. (Rochester Division.) Bulletin pamphlet No. 1, January 1, 1912. Engineers' Exhibit No. 37. (See testimony, page 110.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Application blank. Instructions for examination of vision, etc. 73 Engineers' Exhibits 38 — 41. Engineers' Exhibit No. 38. (See testimony, page 111.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central & Hudson Eiver Railroad Company. Bulletin Book. Engineers' Exhibit No. 39. (See testimony, page 111.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Eailroad. Pittsburg Division. Time table No. 22, May 26, 1912. Engineers' Exhibit No. 40. (See testimony, page 111.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Railroad. Rules for government of Transportation Department. May 29, 1910. Engineers' Exhibit No. 41. (See testimony, page 112.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Railroad. Electrical Equipment and Air Brake Instructions, 1910. 74 Engineers' Exhibits 42 — 44. Engineers' Exhibit No. 42. (See testimony, page 112.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Eailroad. Air brake questions for locomotive enginemen, firemen and trainmen. Engineers' Exhibit No. 43. (See testimony, page 112.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Railroad. Philadelphia Terminal Division. Time table, No. 238, April 30, 1911. Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Eailroad Company. (Maryland Division.) Time table No. 17, May 26, 1912. Pennsylvania Eailroad. (New Jersey Division and New York Division.) Terminal time table No. 3, May 26, 1912. Time table No. 8, May 26, 1912. - Engineers' Exhibit No. 44. (See testimony, page 112.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Lines West of Pittsburgh. (Pittsburgh Division.) Time table No. 4, May 26, 1912. (Eastern Division.) Time table No. 14, May 26, 1912. Pennsylvania Railroad. (Western Pennsylvania Division.) (Conemaugh Division.) Time table No. 9, May 26, 1912. (Monongahela Division.) Time table No. 17, May 26, 1912. (Pittsburgh Division.) Time table No. 22, May 26, 1912. (Eastern Pennsylvania Division and Middle Division.) Time table No. 26, May 26, 1912. 75 Engineers' Exhibits 45 — 48. Engineers' Exhibit No. 45. (See testimony, page 112.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) ennsylvania Eailroad. Regulation for examinations, November 1, 1910, Application blank. Examination of sight, etc. Index to questions — Examination on Book of Rules, Questions for Examination on Book of Rules. Engineers' Exhibit No. 46. (See testimony, page 113.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) ennsylvania Railroad. (Pittsburgh Division.) General Orders. Engineers' Exhibit No. 47. (See testimony, page 113.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) jnnsylvania Railroad. (Philadelphia Division.) Bulletin books, parts 1 to 7, inclusive. Engineers' Exhibit No. 48. (See testimony, page 113.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) ennsylvania Railroad. (Middle Division.) Bulletin books, parts 1-a to 1-g, inclusive. 76 Engineers' Exhibits 49 — 52. Engineers' Exhibit No. 49. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Eailroad. (Pittsburgh Division.) General notices. Engineers' Exhibit No. 50. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford "Railroad. Instruction book for the government of electric locomotive engineers, September 1, 1907. Engineers' Exhibit No. 51. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Eules of Operating Department, July 1, 1907. Engineers' Exhibit No. 52. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Rules for the controlled manual block signal system and in- terlocking. 77 Engineers' Exhibits 53 — 56'. Engineers' Exhibit No. 53. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Rules for government of electric locomotive engineers, con- ductors and trainmen in the operation of multiple unit equipment. Engineers' Exhibit No. 54. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Bulletin notices — Shore Line Division, January 1 to July l r 4912. Engineers' Exhibit No. 55. (See testimony, page 114.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Instruction pamphlet No. 1 (Operation of electrical locomo- tives), November 1, 1908. Engineers' Exhibit No. 56. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Company. Application for employment. Inquiry blank. Examination for acuteness of vision. 78 Engineers' Exhibits 57 — 60. Engineers' Exhibit No. 57. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Baltimore & Ohio Eailroad Company. Rules for the government of the Operating Department, April 1, 1903. Engineers' Exhibit No. 58. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Baltimore & Ohio Eailroad Company. Rules governing the examination of firemen for promotion to locomotive enginemen, second and third series, Jan- uary 1, 1912. . Engineers' Exhibit No. 59. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Central New England Railwa}'. Application for employment. Surgeon's certificate of examination. Inquiry blanks. Questions for examination. Engineers' Exhibit No. 60. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Central New England Railway. Rules and regulations of Operating Department, August 1, 1905. 79 Engineers' Exhibits 61 — 64. Engineers' Exhibit No. 61. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Boston & Maine Railroad. Rules and regulations of operating department, June 21, 1909. Engineers' Exhibit No. 62. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Boston & Maine Railroad. Mechanical and Air Brake Examination. Engineers' Exhibit No. 63. (See testimony, page 115.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Boston & Maine Railroad. Application blank. Instructions for examination of vision, etc. Rules applicable to firemen, July 1, 1910. Engineers' Exhibit No. 64. (See testimony, page 116.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Long Island Railroad. General orders. 80 Engineers' Exhibits 65 — 66. Engineers' Exhibit No. 65. (See testimony, page 116.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Hocking Valley Railway Company.] Toledo & Ohio Central Railway. [ Kanawha & Michigan Railway. f Zanesville & Western Railway J Rules and regulations, July 1, 1908. Engineers' Exhibit No. 66. (See testimony, page 116.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) New York Central Lines — (Chicago, Indiana & Southern Rail- road Company). Rules for government of Operating Department, June 2, 1907. 81 (Engineers' Exhibit 67, July 16> 1912.— See testimony Page 117.) H OCO Increase varies accord- ing to DiviT sions. OS 5 OD g « (5* ^7 » g •S3 00 V t*. Cs ' ~ 3 O w . -V !r E t- m k « tf g a loS SoS SoS « OH < J < 3 < X ^ £ o ^ O j ■ _; PS -13 OS ^5cS cd OS iRS„ as ^s m 05 ^?a o H hLB fa J, oso— * 1 Sg.3 1 t-o S OSO — 1 i>o OSO > PS Q Q » K O a G co' 1 ^ J- OJ ft "5 Q ft S5 s a <- v 1-1 ■2^ 3 O 02 6S 3T.S ST .3 Z5 ^ rt ^ S3 § g 5 da o h J B fa o o OS 1 d Q ■~ o ft EC oJS« CO c — ' wo o CO O 1 Q CO ft >* CO os i Q . OJ O OS mQw a cu os g •* a J3 S «3 1 < 5 B fa eo N CN a a m ■ L ft °5o g. > g B X H fa P S s 3 C IB wf 3 =8 B bl a a S«N3 a Id CQ W <5£ < J3 <~z 2 <^i ^ 8 K O l< SI 1 Se„ - 0) O K 3 o o OS m CO GS SB-I-S CO OS go c £ S ?™ 1 CD cU += CP , ft ffl ss p cflS 09 B Ph i Q Sg 1 V G (S Q .S«gS co is 0*3 aj fa <»§-sS2 S3 PQ < \. §"* S B So W£ 2 rt CJ3 OEh 82 Engineers' Exhibit No. 68. (See testimony, page 119.) July 16, 1912. ■< Ph a z —I ■4 m a ►3 ■< z coos ON Oil NCO CD tf2 IN Ui >->N efoo oTish osco 00 i-T 00 >o ■*co- i-Tco~ ooo T-l CO N~oT CD CD N ■* ia~i-T CO O cOiO 135 CD ISO 00 —I Tt<~00 N CO CD w t- t~-# OS i—l ^ CO C5N CO 1-H OCCD lOH i>w tato HN U3 0D IM'* 00 ■* 00 t- ' IN r-- o_ i-T o coo NOs OIN cot^ IN'* IN lO COOS 00 00 OOTf IN H 00 00 CO -HCD ho" i-l CO N CO CO oo t~- COt~ CCtO COCO i-l O r-i-< OS lO ION CD 00 os"o" ■*co CO OS OS ow oo©_ co%« CO i-l COi CD i-l H(- CD~iC i-l 00 a z I < o « 00 00 CON i-l to 00 (N N CM 0!—l 00 to oo 00 CO "*CD OOi-H COOS coco CO t~ WOS coco CON iO~N~ ° t ■oo 00 CO ■*co ■*o taso 00 CD CD CD i-H 00 i-lN i-Tod" -*oo i-H CO 00 lO t^CO COCO ■*w N 00 NO N~ -*i-l O OS •ooo CO-*" CO 00 ■*o co a i-i as co > t^OS NtJh t^O CSI> OS CO DON ■OO ocs COO CO 00 f-CO CO CON ISO) co__co_ iocs" iOIO t>i-H coco 00 CO t^oo N~iO t^-CD N CD i-H OS l>-_i-H_ i-Tco" t^co ■* CO lO ooo lO^Tfl i-Tio OS 00 N N 00 CO ■*05 coo_ coW OSIO ■mco "-OCD asm co oo N .-I NN o"oo" coo co- co i-( o m ira~o" oo co NCO « 3 as CO CD 00 CO o _ J PS « "^ 3 Hi h 0. . B > »a M ■Bt S"3 ^3 en K - (S « n s- m a << fe fe H tf a a o >H j PS ■< > j pe CD < P « ^°" Ros , =8 >, 2 a o t 6^° H fc ox Pi a c i* -2 < o i/^ s^ =8^ ^Ji q > ' d "• > O >> ►'"m 0*" i—l OS C to o ® *rH ** i-^ l-H CDiO -*CN COOS w" INCTi ■o C- t-co IOt-T COrH CO 00 rH COCO IO00 tDOO com CO" CD -33 OH OS COO coo- "3CN co"io * COCN COCO rHCN_ co"cn" rH rH OS IBM *CO ofo" * rH rH rH CO o_w_ oTt-T CO OS w w__ rH g « H 02 CO O « OS T-H O-cD O-O WOS oi~co~ O W o_ i-h" tON LOO o c l°- rH (NO OS l*-t» rH oo w > ~' o OrH OiCO o"*" -*co rHOO tNCjT CN OICO COO CN* Sfe" rHlO OSO (NO. 00 00 *"*" (NO CN Oco COO *(N eOi-T o-* W OS CO"*" ■* 11 * * IN to co o rH o CN t- CO in 00 00 * * o OS * CO CN 1 a PS *r- oo J3- t- z £ g £ J C 2 a- 1 — a i> Z 2 3"= 2 O i 2 " 3 E O ft h-l< CO =8 o o < o 3 O «f 2 2 5 2 O a" 2 ■< - >■ gp: a O c « x c < c •r; -*; 1/ r- > "5 5 t < < < PC K C c ■fe < C c cc 1 < c > < E a < > < < PC z c c K e < < r3 s C c CX zz t- c < c ■ri - > = j C PS< 2 a » CD =8 o s H H Q 1 CJJ J CD* 1 Ph ■8 a a a < > 2 pa 5 a a ^^ S5 «PS 2 a Q c C < c += rH > r E ft < C < C ft* a 5 PC a E H c K X C < 1. > - 1 84 Engineers' Exhibit No. 68. T3 oo Ph o PS o en P oo OH ufte" to 00 3-* 3iO 02 H c H.H I CO T-N H 00 o^l H0OH o» t-us h to H OS io to h°°1 HOt- CS 00 CO H to OICS N tO t-~co~ H OS 00" HO CO CO NO to~>-r CO 00 o oh ooo co~N too t-H of HM U3N_ o-fi-T «•* o_to_ h"thT to to ION to to N_I> h"oT to 00 N00 N_tO_ i-H tO t-o H(> t— to lO>C i-H CO N"ira~ CO H HO (MOO OtO mo OS-" HM on 32 H o Ph o to to H OS Q5N oTto 00 CO CO CO H~ 1> IO t- H 10 r- 0~H~ 00N h o to" IN lO ni> t-to_ SDOf OH NO ON oo to HNiO OlOCB H IN tO 000 N 03 H (N N-* ON CO CO H CO t-00 U) t- -*"oo" to 00 1>_>0 co"o~ H HN HU5 -*H NO~ 00 oc HHH no" CO ON IN t- to 00 oTcn" Olr- 00H . 00 CO to CO to r-r- •OH HCO ■*" ■*K1 IOC0 HtO o"t|<~ H 00 COO US coo lOUJ onto oTio" NO N H n" N H ©•*- H 00 OO HH* i-H tO N U3 J^OOOO HO~o" O ICCO HN l- 00 H 0>H H tO HtO Hira t> t- HCO -f~CO~ -*00 O H NCO NO toco COH o to HtO n >a OO Hr, H H 00 t- HN 0_U3 rnco" too t-N OOl t-H mo CO~'-'5 ON 00 00 a B J CO hn a < o PS S c J PS ^ zS 3£ IP hJ o •* -s H"- IS m >^ O - 2- H, g ^ < P. > . 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Or cot. t- w OC co>r OC" OM a^cr. t-CN rHH a i-H i- ooc !>"" I>C COTf 00 rt COOC oc 1-H00 o CM ©a ) OTt oa ■*-* r~>- Oir -_C -*r^ i—l OCT ) OC- OIO rtf ioit ow 00 o COOC ocfcc co"-*" O I>C J ffllf HC •OC- >occ IMt- ooc cur COO coco i— 1 coo oo OCC •*cc COCv cooc l-H i- cc COt- >o_o efce l>~CC o toe l> i-Tis c oo"c ooio o OC ■r l-ll> CO la P- Hi sis P^ 1 CO CO CM lO CM CO r- CO 00 I— 1 o CO o CO i-H CO rp IN CO 00 lO >o o m IN CO o 1—1 CO J 55 a e g « a tf o a ft o < ' (3 O CO p ffi B o o 1 < 1 a a « o CO 55 a p P3 < o 50 IS =3 3 >HC ffi i ■ a : o PH« «8 8 ^ S3 * = 55 O -= p-i *= 9 < P C CO -* 55-^ 55 -tf i o > a » o > PS k. >H 3 . g > ffi ^ > P >> 2 = >H "3 tH-3 >< 3 ^ 2 ^3 ffi 3 >4 i — 1 ffi 3 35^ * " ^ ► ^ ^ > ^ ^ 55 1- : 55 55 a a H a a a a ri a s £ £ S5 S5 Z S5 S5 Ph Ph 86 Engineers' Exhibit No. 68. IT) Ph o o ■ CO O S CO T- ~ ofc < oa r co"cx ) lf)C£ r o > t^lf f If 3 ©O r oc oo" o co if 3 roc ) ^1 « 3 MS 3 00 -5 ^ T-H O 1 CMr- I CMC ) c 3 If ) CM 1— 1 Nit ) "C«"S. h ■* h H p- i. a 3 i-H if 3 Oh)i- H_ r-CCl r a f —Tc 3~ - ^ O f r- ! 1 1 2 * a j a G - «i > -n* -3-^ s3 Eh c3-r OS 03-r ^ e3 -r oi OS _ CM r- 1 COTi oo OO oi S- lO" - o t^ OO cocc COtH t-o. i-HCO £ © O0( ) me > iracc ) CO- COIf tUtJ C0t~ r* •- If cocc CO© i— < HJ ) If) i- o t- OG o •— CM If oo- t^c t- na oqco J rH~t/ ^H O © »- io"c 00 if Oi- coo. Oh* CC ■*-* 00 CM « ©a ) r^ if O N «3t> ©T- C£ 00 r- i-HTt CN — © g Cdb coot ) Off ) C ' -lot ■5 r-t a l> s - r u- c r- " T- IN or. coif O IT h-ir COC t^CC OCC t~^t t^ — CO c -100 CO <£ hUhS 05 0- Oir r~cc i^^ ooc O CC CM t» COif. t^T* SO a ©0C COC OTt Hj<0C tH ■* I>CC COO o^- -tf c ooo i— 1 CM~o. o~ot -H~C ^t t>c oooc COC Ol c if) CC «>■* 1— 1 COC rH r- © t- IOO. 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Ol c oqo COO COC Mi- IC CO ^hc i-HC CM OC Tt CO CO CC ce i— c PS n P5 B aa CO if) Ol o o t^ CO W Ol CO o CO 1—1 Ol H* I-O Ol H# if) Ol © 00 00 ot o ■* hH< O0 If) •* 01 yjr fa A O J J J ,J ►J a J J J J S3 • « 3 BS M Pi « « a PS K CJ * PS • Ph 0, Ph Ph Ph Ph Ph Ph Ph Ph < Q < O > < pi<= 5c I H© H PS C Pi^ gco H H^ P^T H H >: 2c =3x C o, — 1. -< c HI i. a c - pll > Eh -*- p< o c S c Ph C M c 8" Si Eh h- HH (/ »-s NH — s£h- o^ Eh C ►3-s 03 h- a co 1 PS <- CO r- 5"H = CO" - «c s ■> Si H C ■> 5 > a — Oh •- < JH i 6 B & p. .- 1 > as 1 - > c < - C r 1 ) O e 2 -a > |- & — & & & >- 87 Tl cd O !- W "S O M £ a rt Is w J3 «j +j a « m w >, s aj w Hi CO Cfi .O rn Pi -*j «l M o o 2 Engineers' Exhibit 69 (See Testimony, Page 119). 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O 3 8 • O rv IOJ3 " CS&_ lO' d^J CO cq ri 1^ -«o oo s'3 Is . o 5 rH oj 5f| s 8 s "ra o too 2 So - eg .2 3 s -So S 3 ft 3 _ ^ 2 ^ss i * 8 a= of '"' " d 8 E '1 ° CD CD SO IN o o„3 co co 03 ^ a) cd -^ r*z . "2 6 w d CO =3 £ CD •■-! CD * r2 g UUht3« H O WO M o« 8 o|S 0-3 M « 2 CMOS 1 s 1 o o S 5 o 15 ■"! -S oa-2 Is 3 *5 J,® Is >* c CO > B w S M O <; Ik 3 K O H PS « H O CD Ph O 55 H H w d M m p1 P3 B CIS S <5 91 Engineers' Exhibit No. 69. & U > o s 8 H £ d . O _« > mt3 p.,2 as a} cs *" m g O B h w as -w •■ —I ° ° ffl d CO* o J5 bo 3 O -a J3 bD 3 O M H ■go a rt O ■a I £ s.i INI 111 3 ^ (B CO g « "W I H O O H H ■a ■a 3 p pI 9 -a* Q) O 3 ■» in bi. u t- 05 ° 05 O o|o3 .3-oo-Sm a 8 s i ■3 ; avr ; si H a OS O o3 ^T3 B 3 £ g P to o js.5 a 0.2 _ d^.§ >£A o,d O ' ' "E 13 S otJ So s"J3 ep*g " ~o. «"3 &■*"! ifs m^3 a ^1 ^.'"■^i £ -^ a o^ o o "o o >> h a SS^-rtboooo ^-g ■" o s 73 J3_,-3 o o^.g ■ & s-e-s M cS fl d ^,> 2*3a'l 2 9 &_: 2 2 ° sSgol^l^ fill *1l ,5 533 g,a - a o-g r "d > d o p. o ' o o,di3 jd g-d.d u d T3-d m n ° o d d s d ■S »« p° o jj S g^3 o rt ►.•a* O d o "Sis o 03 h -n P* 03 S3+ 3 g s a-* 3 3^^ a o"a ® *2^.s"J a E - d o P;d ^.g o f &g£^J* B -a -a « -d - 13 m f9-a ® o £ --d ■&ri.i1o •Ho Q g % -g d,d m o3 Or3 ° o 2 > 2-d H * S g"-d P-3 o « °t3 ■^T d ^ £ o d o,a T- C ft d ■^ -d 5 a g gj so a^ °"S^ d jh I-* Qj ^ ag^lla-s m d d v ' ; :-: ' o.d^T3 as. a,*- 1 ^atiss ^•■s ^ .a o „, o ■ -e Q Q o3 d ■d ± o^djs-dEd a j -d "^ o d S+3-r l|*°S ■■■-;- S ° 3* i . o art m >><« p3 ."d o rt rt dss 2^=i o3 a o ) «> I o o S^= a^.s a s ^3 B a -sag ,d d * ^ o "g aT'" .3 > -^ td "o M > q/O n -3 O t-> rt-.Ti d O O Orr(_« ^3"« r'd ° o K"* 3 Jl-B £ S3 o Kr«- "■" t, £. « 2 a S_: 0=3,9 3|-l5|1^g3 I Bb sd»T3 o^ a* 3 Jl*83.g5|.| 1 1 i si g aS"* r>> «h"' 53 w a o j3 t.-d o53 M>« d ^*S p d o.f 43 a bo p^a e s«a^J g-l s o o-d o* 5 ^-o fan O ^^ ta J3rt a tJOo-d a d h o ^ rt> o .4/ ->e-53 ol3 ■S^J-S^-9 o 5^ O o3 5 o. g'J'ti'f |S.||1.ag|8|ri s p,fl s ««a Ib5* ,. . 03 3 m fl Ort ■ai^i-g.ll 03^ r-{ H g3 'r=! .S3 a 2 a s g a ■a d.d ^ n o g 3"3r- >- — -d s> -If o JJ -H O'd M*^ 3 Jrt M Ha * ^ o | s »-2 *3g-sl-sa d St?S ° * 2* d-s^^^ *o| 1 qj -*jpd :*9 "d-d - 5 =il2' a " a O O s d 03 fl OJ Jj^3^ c3^ d-^3 03 ^3 aj oj 02 an^ g-^B m »ns 2 o3 a p * g b5 3 6 .d '-P tn o o S 'd d S 3*3^^ 2 d O^ " Q.O — „ t, _*d rr-^sa O 03 DD " oEs.9-2^^ ■a § s s|1| R - 3 -d o o o o d .2 s fi T3 a 3 13 .1 b o-^jd ^i o -75*3 S S-e a . 13 — O B 0) 3 ■ O.J302 ■"•ftei (D ~ G s-t ■&£ -"o Oman is o 13 -=1 "SO <3 S-a el M a o a s 2 a 5 .-.2 - oT 3'8'G 03 3 <* >,.§ *'•§&! S3 a ° ° a S"" ■si-si 3 s -^^ .=pT3T3 00 go 03 T3 i-t sal* s * ri a £ S 8 03 oi a) » ^ a g a s o o^ saa^ss g^^s.a s-e— >•>■ l°o|3 o) h » p. •2 fe a j, +3 O OJ O >>o U-- ■ a 111 ^^ - « s ail •^ Oh Is 8 !I •i:a m S'5 s «> SfS .a si 3" ■ a e ft -s "a 3 S c H oS , :^^ .1121 03 C ra • ■asm I'M 5^sJ &^|5 12S-S Ol 03 J3 O s3^ 5 o 2 ° Hi O (3 |w ►J PS O H 9 PS o H H P |3 94 Engineers' Exhibit No. 70. (See testimony, page 119.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Atlantic Coast Line Railroad Company. Revised agreement between the Engineers and the Com- pany, effective December 1, 1911. Alabama & Vicksburg Railway Co. Rates of pay and other regulations concerning locomotive engineers. Effective: Mileage rates December 7, 1911; other rates and regulations December 16, 1911. Central of Georgia Railway Company. Schedule of wages and rules and regulations governing the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. Rates effective November 1, 1911; rules and agreement effective December 15, 1911. Louisville & Nashville Railroad Company. Agreement between the Louisville & Nashville Railroad Company and its locomotive engineers and firemen, with rates of pay, in effect December 1, 1911. Norfolk & Western Railway Company. Rates of pay and regulations for locomotive engineers, in effect, Dec. 1, 1911. New Orleans & Northeastern Railroad Company (etc.). Rates of pay and rules and regulations concerning locomo- tive engineers. Southern Railway Company. Schedule of wages and Rules and regulations for engineers, effective July 1, 1911. 95 Engineers' Exhibit 71. (See Testimony Page 119.) July 16, 1912. to < fa < fa o O I— I H CO >— i H Hi> 33 55 *3 fa fa o _- z ^ 2 > 5« HO i/) fa « H H a — * TP WOb-O cm ro coo CDHiOrt t* t^tN-* Hi AMN O'OXt^- o too iO UJSOHrC ic"to"iffco" cs"w"Tf"o CMWTjt CMQ0MO OSOShOO K30«H CM hh «w'nh TjTtoos'os* # OS OS Of W_OS_COO C-) =•- — C-l oosooh f"0*l^'* iccb"«5oT H cm tco CSOU3 OtOCMQft NOiOO HHOSH CO h o o OSOCN CO CO COO C4QCOIO en tjh_x o O C3 t> o t*-OSOS -*r»CM CM-*-* tOfflOOJ w" OS cm" to" o"ro"co"cs OS osoom f csr-toio CM h O OS Nif3oqO_ ^>cqx oscs'oi*" so ^f woo i>otoo » CMI>00O w_cM«_eo co cm" to" co" to" to" t^-" CM 1-1 O U3tP oseo^H CO CM tO >C NO«0 Tf O-* •* HON r*-wr-o H-rfHCM"* OX^CM NiOOH WCOOSCD H^qso ■*COC£ N-HCDCS co'o'os'w OWfCS X wcn"i>co" 108,30 6,05 60,09 42,14 MOO CO Hf-OOtO CMHOSCN hOCMOS CO CO OS OS CM to OS COh-iOQ hi>OM »nt--(N co tq_osoo iQt^O_t^ h^u; COOtJ" CM-*TJ< 00co"iOOs" osto"co"cs" Ow'co'o N. *MOO hOt)<0 W HH O COHtNOS OS io"ot>o" rtHO^' IOCMG0-* tOr-HOCS cor^cDo OS iO ■* GS co"cmi>m" r-^to*co"r* H CD"* H P *"* CMHCV r. / :i ~ CO Of OS O C-l O CO coiocc iO toco »o t O M S CO t» — lT i-s »cr^tN io •d"*qq O g CO O doc CM CON CM ■■#■■* o"cocm'cs" f- CM COO lOO^H h 5? o 2: CD -f iC CO ocw'ioc:" CM — i OS o"h-*»o~ y" — ■" rs r^ 5 OSOOSf coos rom WOf N T OS ox !S CM" CM CO* CO" NONM H PS 1-1 O 'O f < ■■# WE-* OM-f O Xh o ■*ox o ffiWOtfi CO -# "O CO >< CM CMC HHff CM"r^-Hrc" Oh-h"m o'co'co'or iC oc r- o o N M fi C CM h o CM ^CC CN?1 = cs coao?; 2 (Nifl x'r" ado" too COOcOX tj-l-tcsos q^OM « H !N l- CO WW^N OS iOC0 o HO* OOKJil) WNN1" r-Hoo eot^i-H MN»h mcoTt-t^ OOI^X CO tOi— "O O^rtH OMT^Ot H(MO oor- co'coco'to* O*h"cs">-0 o wco'cc" Tf O WNTf lOXlflH CM H o OS CM if CO osf f cs N^OW lOWfCM os"c"co"r-' CMCMOOS 0"*lo o_« t-_OS_ O hOCJ hcmiocm" r^"eo"r^-* X Tjo 00 OhhQC 0~Cm"io"(N" r-"»n*c-"'* 1-1 « -*co ho (O QOCSOSO t--CMI>O0 r-oico i-HCMWO CO w WO osxoo oqc^os_to_ ^XNK CMOCMOS hX--" rCffif^o" HNOX COCCNN CM in ho** 1 iQlO^lf! CM H o t^OSTt'^H t-OiO»C OS 10,240, 2,161, 5,271, 2,807, 78,726, 4,685 42,100, 31,942, xcl: OS f- OS CO lOCMO^ h-MCDTO c.^^ CO to h iO r-co mo NC«2 HCO_OSIO cscoh-ac OQO_-t OS -MX OS OK >HMn to"od"#CM" co" o" cop: •-"C^H t^" OOOiOO !M WOCV CM h O HCMOOO t^OSOSX OS O'io't-h'co" iO CO OS CM I-HO_COTf_ oscm"^"3 ,S.2 © ^fa. *t a 6a u ■- « E of* Eg SI 5h o to •^ fa Work Wreck Snow Plow Circus •*^o E rt • OO g m^jq N o-^oP oco 28"^ eo « & a da CO - «-i fi S a a S c. (0 J p a ° qSio ■ q —ija'cH -co (- .2 a^o ^ 8s 03 ■ ri--. 09 - Cm ^2 ■3 M O H 8"fiLa ^" o E o © o H a o S£ -a O 00 t>* o ■•# "3 M © (NO fl > ■ fiHT) O O a "^ » o m w CO N. O "tf o • ■ . «3 "* TjH T*< -^ ■4-3 r^^S ■«-;« -ossai; -rtao S Z 2 »■ s H ° Mhffifl ■ fl) B 01 Q) ■ B a ag ^.2 -3 O n u l. >,£ § H >< k S MA, 1H oa 5 O , QJO <£ 00 I> ^ o ... l-g 366m "O ^ M W h-P h OJ •* » 45— 03O o^ M k a OH B < z a •t o 1 o o — v d ■rgs , 1 '/■ t , i, -3 MPhCO oO CO . ^ s.' -*- -2 » 98 Engineers' Exhibit No. 72. w D I 1? O i— t 2i O $ Ph En o m W ll 5h 5h fc B H ll o<5 ft.S o o o5 ^ s 5 B.2 * &a a ■- i a z s 8 is CO O o d H en CO Q o o CO h -a o o -i to - k. o U OCO As <5h i f* H o3 a£ o5 a t- si aS c5 as M K 1> 6- 5 g B O O O *"0 > 3 ? I'S * S.CI OMgSo b'CL) ^ S fl OU5 g £ | g ™ Si^ ll S.S b a PS J3 0) ©iC o iOOi Qi J3 1^1 o II 5h a£ as ti ca aS o5 H < 2 i 3 o o CO O00 & 2 lO Oh •© o I o >- o ■ © — c CM O 05 — u <0 ft 5 o © t-S (M o la ll 5h o Oi-i HH-JH © -HI- - h *** &Tj» Q, a^. co o CN h J, w Ph a ! * OH 8S -* o ira CS (M CO CO U5 CO Q o togg •8 j,o o °2 as" a ■ a 1,1 ih O CO -8 HHg o a .2 3 69 99 Engineers' Exhibit No. 72. a a a S b - « fa o m CO co ■* ro o CO X CO CO O s o H ? J3 O O CO J.-3S CO Sg83||| co' £-**) kffl £ 3 ira CO o o o CO 6a « g CO o O o o 'J Work Wbeck Snow Plow Circus fi3 O > S u o - (- COJ3 O SO O o ^ c^S>.2 o CO CO K IS £ a a % IS J p H ■ a.K 8 5 ■QhQ sg.1 o ** — _, • oS §1 o O o a CO <-" .2 -^~, <3 =?§ o 1* Id Si <5h o2 (N© o go iO o O CO ■ -co s> U30 COO © O O tH o ■^ ft is W o > «- * 5 J} OJ o o OO'O m fc Wcot^- ra S CO "^ CO ■%•& - _ . o O^OO — * ^ — a S 5h "3 © O IM o ■*iO H i a in IO U iocd ccco «9 w o N OS ooo co wm o o cs CO Q ox SSq-g co»g oioO O Tf rP Weight of Engine " 3 OOSfimOS tn oi tt all ooo 8§E O g CD O* C.£ W 10 ft.£ 8 is 5b CI CO 2 - rt c CO CO « CO O to o CO ooo i-iocq c CO CO OOiC Q O aj S a OS'S o o o hue M m « 3 ■3S-§ OoOai •3 J! Is 1 HiJOe 101 PUtgitifiprfi' Krh'ihit Xn 7 9 in a < o « i— i < I a < H 55 O 55 O ;* & o H OS 5h 1 3 a 5 * Aa 6£ i fi *• As 5h o o 2 3 8 02 u O Si 0C0J3 CC CO « a w oooo < §1 6h o5 u CM WonK Wreck Snow Plow Circus O to o ■8 2 ^^ - Aa o to '0 « PS so — 3b O © Md_ 2o9« [S ^ 5*3 Sod evn«5 8a Kb u -a j3 >-.2r © H^2 AS Tin oo © si o a O iffl n 2 •o 2E - ■ a ft hJ © eSoo — — la S" 3 O ©«3 O S.2 00 t» §2 B) B O o o t-CDlQ ooo CO =1 -o 00 1^ "CO 10 in oo ^- g fc 5 aog ©._; ooo ©ft tc o2j o 2 u a * © — j o >-;T3 cm o< 3e= CM no si; t. s 00 2 ° © CONGO O • • o lO CD CO o o o co < o "SI s| gn «- k2 © © a % •8 H 3^ ^* 00 « © — - -1 © p ° m ® .3^5 s ■8 ai . 102 Engineers' Exhibit No. 72. M A < o la w O ii t— H En O > t O en ,W CH •* £V7Ji-"'-< sis - - 5* Over- Time 00 CD coco O cj as a g ? PtM- - S3 m on F- O U3 O cccc COCO ca cn U, t-H OJ g h <5S H W .J a o •** ai DO* ■o o CX) a] cSh O a-f O - oSoS O a-§ O cu K « n J; CN CN co ft «S •« .£ OS >J^ &c >.£ AS CD OC TJ1 -"Si dr: « o 5 S2 o H *1U eat S 2 6s IN *-T g|.S O O 8* §2 . *- -73 - O m o _, g eg w oO MO ft 00 >> t- — « « 5 5h ^ ISS. O C i W (0 - - ._ ii O R O T3 a — M a o 1-1 P tn *J m h to oi o ™ •3o.oJ> S=nS S S £ to tn o 5 o ^3 »« ■s c « J o u p. fa *- Oft* ^.9 2 is < o h- 1 H J < II o *- Co s- 0$ H OS S a o o u o a ■So" oo is 8 Hi s - D. O - -T- S 2: is 5^ - o PS B a a P4 a ■4-1 tj W te !> — & J3 Qui i- a- ft) Is O sn m hi £ o .5 o is 5^ <-■--■- , o j= ft) _C < ■-< Tin < *-* ■* 2-8f >5& < a O -r . ~ i-HO^f .a w.bf ft>£ s l 0:1 "m-u ft) 3-? COM ^^ £ O O is "So to£o 32 sa 00 ■* S«3f S ■ gs o»ooo All frt & ivork, per day, 100 M or less, 4.65. Over 100 M, 1 . 65c per M. 10 hrs :quals 1 day — - ■ ci ■ «•* CM ^O i "■go" |o- AS US 00 32 w O Tt< ft a a a a B * w 3 to 3 3 g M t-u3 ftQO g ^co^oo 3 ft ^ 8 OT3 CS 00 - 1 .i© -j. oco d 4) ■ . 3 a-* s iO>fl n » -ft • ■-; o coo Q &. M ■5 * s s| e » oo t-3^ AS 5h - (H i-H 4) Tji ft O - 03 00 CO CO CO ■ Ed CO O i-ciOCO O) 00 CO CO o CO a < o m _0 o « a &4 g ■ • ft . > 105 Engineers' Exhibit No. 72, < o a i— t < iz A H ft w < W H o o as O VI is As 5£ Al 5? III S.2 — . i- g a | 4& OSO 13 J£ 5 | Madison & E. St. L. 4.00. Tole- do, 3.90. Other, 3.70 o M line 39c & 40c per hr. B. & H. 4.00 pr day A3 o o ^ o 2 o & ° 02 a -i Work Wreck Snow Plow Circus o o o it: I s to 0, ° £ ° Work & wreck 4.00 pr day Ai o5 ft t_ 03 c313£ B S p h o 6o CNCO CD oo ^ CNN is at CD'S ft ■ « ■^-3 AS o5 0.2 cc «at3£ 32 o a E o <83 71, 72, 88, & 89, 4.90 All others 4.75 o CO CO ft 511 A3 o5 10 M per hr pro rata pro rata 1 M basis 5& 4.50 & 4.75, 100 M & under, 10 hrs o o c "OOO OO o o lO 00 4 . 50 4.25 100 M E- S3 g fc s Rate pr M 21" x over 20" Less Large eng. Small eng. (5 a 5h S.2 lO o3 o £g EC O a o « o o 00 CO •a Q0O ■o COi-H a ■< en .9 S Toledo & Ohio Central. On the run basis Is 133 M o hJO GO"" - c .s .2 I > Western Mary- land. Over-time pro rate in all service. 106 Engineers' Exhibit No. 72. 03 Q < o s I— I < W H 03 <3 H w IS o I pSi O >H > a 21 x 30" & over 20 x 26" & over Consoli- dat. Other eng. 61 5h o 1« i w to rjj CO h « ft o o CO -^ w en Q O Wheeling & L. E., W.P.T. & W.S.B. Zanesville & Western. Thurston to Z. 2 round trips per day. Shawnee to Z. 2 round trips per day 107 Engineers' Exhibit 73. (See testimony, page 121.) July 16, 1912. STATEMENT SHOWING MILES OF ROAD OPERATED— 1911. MILES OF ROAD PER SQUARE MILE OF TERRITORY POPULATION PER MILE OF ROAD Miles op Road Groups 1, 2 &3 Miles of Road per 100 Square f ° pulati °n PEK States Operated 1911 Miles of fqio * Territory Delaware 340 17.04 604 Indiana 7098 20.59 364 Maine 2096 7.52 330 Maryland 1326 14.35 901 Massachusetts 2087 26.31 1592 Michigan 8360 15.69 311 New Hampshire 1213 13 . 80 345 New Jersey 2146 30.08 1122 New York 8338 17.09 1081 Ohio 9028 22.42 521 Pennsylvania 10894 25 . 18 678 Rhode Island 196 19.88 2557 Total 53122 229.95 10406 53122 17.49 867 Groups 4 & 5. States Alabama 4994 10.19 409 Florida 3769 8.08 169 Georgia 6631 12.02 369 Kentucky 3494 S.77 649 Mississippi 3672 9.72 399 North Carolina 4110 10 . 12 ■ 447 South Carolina 2878 11.29 440 Tennessee 3587 9. 15 572 Virginia 4436 11.26 454 West Virginia 2885 14.99 339 Total 40456 105.55 4247 Average 10.55 Average 424 108 Engineers' Exhibit No. 73. Miles op Road Groups 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Miles op Road per 100 Square Population per States Operated 1911 Miles op Mile op Line Territory 1910 Arizona 1962 1 . 84 97 Arkansas 42.53 10. 10 296 California 6610 4.99 306 Colorado 5646 5.34 144 Idaho 1925 2.61 149 Illinois 13257 21 . 20 474 Iowa 9987 17.55 228 Kansas -. . . 9216 11.01 184 Louisiana 4477 12.23 298 Minnesota 8893 10 . 72 239 Missouri 8336 11 . 76 407 Montana 4294 2. 88 89 Nebraska 6151 7 . 90 196 Nevada 1601 2.07 35 New Mexico 2975 2 . 48 108 North Dakota 4379 5 . 99 137 Oklahoma 5898 S. 62 277 •Oregon 2125 2.39 294 South Dakota 3984 5 . 14 148 Texas 13081 5.44 272 Utah 1819 2.42 188 Washington 5133 7.29 234 Wisconsin 7106 13.53 312 Wyoming 1457 1.69 89 Total 134565 178.18 5201 Average 7.42 Average 216 Recapitulation Eastern territory 53122 17.49 867 South Eastern territory .... 40456 10 55 494 Western territory 134.5H5 7 42 216- 109 Engineers' Exhibit No. 74. (See testimony, page 121.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway Company, etc. Schedule of rates, rules and regulations for locomotive en- gineers. In effect, March 1, 1911. Chicago, Milwaukee & Puget Sound Railway Co., etc. Engineers' schedule. Effective August 28, 1910. Chicago Great Western Railroad Company. Rules, regulations and rates governing the employment of locomotive engineers. Effective July 1, 1911. Chicago, Rock Island & Pacific Railway Company, etc. Rules and rates of pay for locomotive engineers. Effective February 1, 1911. B. of L. E. Agreement. Colorado and Utah Lines. Frisco Lines. Agreement between the St. Louis & San Francisco Railroad Company and The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. In effect December 24, 1910. Great Northern Railway Company. Schedule for engineers. Effective Dec. 1, 1909. Illinois Central Railroad Company. Schedule of wages of Locomotive Engineers. Amended February 1, 1912. The Missouri Pacific Railway Co., etc. Schedule of wages, locomotive engineers. 1911. New Orleans, Texas & Mexico R. R. Co., etc. Engineer's Schedule. In effect July 1, 1911. "%■" 110 Engineers' Exhibits 74 — 75. Oregon Short Line Eailroad Co. Schedule of pay for engineers and firemen. Effective May 16, 1910, for firemen, and December 24, 1910, for engineers. Southern Pacific Co. Agreement, February 20, 1911, between the Southern Pa- cific Company and the General Committee of Adjustment of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers of S. P. System. Denver & Eio Grande Railroad System. Memo, of Agreement. The Texas & Pacific Railway Co. Rules, regulations and rates of pay allowed locomotive en- gineers. In effect March 1st, 1911. Union Pacific Railroad Co. Schedule of pay for engineers. In effect September 1st, 1911. Engineers' Exhibit No. 75. (See testimony, page 121.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Lake Shore & Michigan Southern Railway Company. Revised Schedules of Rates of Pay of Enginemen, effective June 1, 1910. Grand Rapids & Indiana Railway Company. Regulations and Rates of Pay governing Enginemen, to be- come effective at a time to be decided upon later. The Hocking Valley Railway Company. Regulations and Rates of Pav for Engineers, effective May 1, 1910. Ill Engineers' Exhibit 75. Kanawha & Michigan Railway Company. Eates of Pay, Rules and Regulaitons for Engineers and Firemen, effective May 1, 1910. Lake Erie & Western Railroad Co., Ft. Wayne, Cincinnati & Louisville R. R. and Northern Ohio Railway. Rates of Pay of Engineers, effective May 16, 1910. Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling Railroad. Letter from W. S. Stone, G. C. E. to J. H. Curtis, Chairman, Lake Erie, Alliance & Wheeling R. R., dated February 5th, 1912, and reply to same, dated January 31st, 1912. Lehigh Valley Railroad Company. Schedule of Pay, Rules and Regulations for the Govern- ment of Engineers, effective January 1, 1911. Long Island Railroad Company. Regulations and Rates of Pay affecting Enginemen, Mo- tormen and Firemen in Train and Yard Service, effective October 1st, 1910. Maine Central Railroad. Agreement between the General Manager, Asst. Superin- tendent of Motive Power, and General Board of Adjust- ment on Maine Central Railroad, in effect July 1st, 1910. Michigan Central Railroad Company. Schedule of Wages for Engineers, effective September 1st, 1910. The New York, Chicago & St. Louis Railroad Company. Rates of Pav and Rules for Enginemen, effective June 1st, 1910. The New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad Company. Scheduled and Agreement with Engineers, in effect May 14, 1910. 112 Engineers' Exhibit 75. New York Central & Hudson River Railroad Company. Engineers ' Rates of Pay, effective May 1, 1910. New York, Ontario & "Western Railway Company. Schedules of Rates of Pay and Rules Governing Locomotive Engineers, in effect September 1st, 1910 New York, Philadelphia & Norfolk Railroad. Regulations and Rates of Pay for the Government of En- ginemen in road and yard service, effective June 1, 1911. New York, Suequehanna & Western Railroad and Wilkesbarre & Eastern Railroad. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers and Firemen, effective July 1, 1910. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company, Erie Division, Western Division. General Notice for government of Engineers in road and yard service. Pennsylvania Lines, West of Pittsburgh. Regulations and Rates of Pay governing Engineers, in ac- cordance with General Notice, effective February 1, 1911. Baltimore & Ohio Railroad. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers, effective April 1st, 1910. Bessemer & Lake Erie Railroad Company. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers and Firemen in road service, effective May 1, 1909. Boston & Albany Railroad. Schedule of Instructions and Rates of Pay affecting Loco- motive Engineers, effective July 1, 1910. 113 Engineers' Exhibit 75. Boston & Maine Eailroad. Understandings to Eules Applicable to Engineers, dated May 1st, 1910; corrected to April 1st, 1911. Eules Gov- erning Service in Hoosac Tunnel Electric Zone, in effect at Time of Installation. Terminal Mileage Bulletin Ad- ditions, in effect April 1, 1911. Buffalo, Boehester & Pittsburgh Eailway Company. Eules and Bates of Pay for Engineers, effective July 1, 1910. Buffalo & Susquehanna Eailroad. Schedule of Pay, Eules and Eegulations for the Govern- ment of Engineers and Firemen, effective March 15th, 1911. ■Central New England Eailway Company. • Schedule and Agreement with Engineers, in effect July 3, 1910. Chicago, Indiana & Southern Eailroad Company. Indiana Har- bor Belt Eailroad Company. Wage Schedule and Working Conditions for Engineers, effective after September 1, 1910. The Southern Indiana Eailway Company. Eates of Pay for Engineers, effective May 1st, 1909. The Cincinnati, Hamilton & Dayton Eailway Company. Schedule of Wages and Eules Governing Conditions of Service of Engineers, effective April 1, 1911. The Cincinnati Northern Eailroad Company. Eules and Eates of Pay for Engineers, effective April 15, 1910. The Cleveland, Cincinnati, Chicago & St. Louis Eailway Com- pany; Peoria & Eastern Eailway Co. Eegulatiom for Engineers, effective April 15, 1910. 114 Engineers' Exhibit 75. Monon Route, Chicago, Indianapolis & Louisville Railway Com- pany. Engineers ' Schedule, effective July 1, 1910. Coal & Coke Railway Company. Rates of Pay and Rules relating thereto for Engineers, effective April 1st, 1911. The Delaware, Lackawanna & Western Railroad Company. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers, effective July 1, 1910. The Delaware & Hudson Company. Rates of Wages and Rules affecting the Employment of Engineers, effective April 1, 1910. Detroit, Toledo & Ironton Railway Co. Agreement with Engineers, effective October 1, 1910. Erie Railroad Company, Chicago & Erie Railroad Company. Rates of Pay and Rules for Engineers, effective April 15,. 1910. The Western Maryland Railway Company. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers, effective March 1, 1910. Vandalia Railroad Company. General Notice, effective July 1, 1910. The Pittsburgh & Lake Erie Railroad. Rules and Rates of Pay for Engineers, effective May 1, 1910. Toledo & Ohio Central Railway, all Divisions. Rates of Pay and Regulations for Engineers and Firemen,, effective July 1, 1910. 115 Engineers' Exhibits 75 — 78. Philadelphia & Beading Eailway Company. Eules affecting the Employment and Service of Engineers- in Road and Yard Work, effective July 1, 1910. Reading System. Letter to W. S. Stone, G. C. E. from F. D. Hines, dated Feb. 2, 1912, and reply to same, dated Feb. 13, 1912. Pere Marquette Railroad Company. Agreement with Engineers and Schedule of Wages for Lo- comotive Service, effective February 1, 1911. Toledo, St. Louis & Western Railroad Company. Schedule of Locomotive Engineers, effective March 1, 1911. Engineers' Exhibit No. 76. (See testimony, page 121.) July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Company. Block signal, interlocking and tel. rules, March 1, 1911. Engineers' Exhibit No. 77. (See testimony, page 121.) July 16, 1912. (This is a duplicate of Engineers' Exhibit No. 11, which is printed in Exhibits, beginning at page 51. ) Engineers' Exhibit No. 78. (See testimony, page 122. July 16, 1912. (Not printed.) Photographs of Baltimore & Ohio Railroad Company's Con- solidation type locomotive, Pennsylvania Lines' Pacific type locomotive, and New York Central Lines' Mallet type locomotive, furnished by American Locomotive Company to W. S. Stone, dated July 16, 1912. ]16 Engineers' Exhibits 79 — 82. Engineers' Exhibit No. 79. (See testimony, page 374.) July 19, 1912. (Not printed.) ~New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad. Diagram of parts of an electric locomotive. Engineers' Exhibit No. 80. (See testimony, page 687.) July 24, 1912. (Not printed.) Pennsylvania Railroad. General order. Engineers' Exhibit No. 81. (See testimony, page 1017.) July 27, 1912. (Not printed.) Memorandum of agreement between Brotherhood of Loco- motive Engineers and Committee of General Managers of Railways, December 24, 1910. Engineers' Exhibit No. 82. (See testimony, page 1017.) July 27, 1912. (Not printed.) Memoranda of Agreement with the General Managers'* Asso- ciation, on Lines West of Chicago effective February 1, 1907. .1.17 Railroad Exhibits No.s. 1 — 4. Railroad Exhibit No. 1. (See testimony, page 42, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Map showing division into groups of railroads in the United States. Railroad Exhibit No. 2. (See testimony, page 429, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Condensed statement showing estimated annual increase of pay requested by locomotive engineers on railroads east of Chi- cago, based on the service of the calendar year 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 3. (See testimony, page 429, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement showing estimated annual increase of pay requested by locomotive engineers on railroads east of Chicago, based on the service of the calendar year 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 4. (See testimony, page 434, July 22, 191.2.) (Not printed.) Number of locomotive engineers in service. 118" Railroad Exhibits Nos. 5— 8. Railroad Exhibit No. 5. (See testimony, page 434, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Proportion of total railway revenues and expenses, total railway traffic, and total compensation to railway employes and en- ginemen, appertaining to the 52 railways, fiscal years 1900 and 1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 6. (See testimony, page 435, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement showing dates and amounts of general increases in engineers' pay from 1900 to 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 7. (See testimony, page 436, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Date present wage schedules became effective. Railroad Ezhibit No. 8. See testimony, page 437, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Date and amount per annum of last increase in pay of locomo- tive engineers. 119 Railroad Exhibits Nov. 9 — 10-B. Railroad Exhibit No. 9. (See testimony, page 440, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (4 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Eastern ter- ritory. Passenger Service. Railroad Exhibit No. 10. (See testimony, page 443, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (4 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Eastern ter- ritory. Through freight service. Railroad Exhibit No. 10- A. (See testimony, page 443, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Comparative Statement. Present rates of pay — Locomo- tive engineers — Eastern territory. Local and way freight service. Railroad Exhibit No. 10-B. (See testimony, page 443, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Comparative Statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Switching service. 120 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 11—14. Railroad Exhibit No. 11. (See testimony, page 443, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2, sheets.) Comparative Statement. Present rates of pay— Locomo- tive engineers— Eastern territory. Pushing and helping service. Railroad Exhibit No. 12. (See testimony, page 443, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Comparative Statement. Present rates of pay — Locomo- . tive engineers — Eastern territory. Work train service. Railroad Exhibit No. 13. (See testimony, page 444, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Total amount wages paid locomotive engineers for year ending December 31, 1911. '> Railroad Exhibit No. 14. (See testimony, page 449, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Statement showing normal monthly earnings accruing on runs of regularly assigned locomotive engineers, under present rates of pay and working conditions. 121 Railroad Exhibits Xos. lr> — is. Railroad Exhibit No. 15. (See testimony, page 451, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Under existing rates of pay and rules, locomotive engineers earn per month, when working full time, in each class of" service, the amounts indicated below. Railroad Exhibit No. 16. (See testimony, page 452, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Maximum monthly earnings of locomotive engineers in dif- ferent classes of service. These earnings have been taken from the pay rolls of the different roads and repre- sent actual monthly wages of individual engineers. Railroad Exhibit No. 17. (See testimony, page 455, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (5 sheets.) Statement showing average hourly earnings and time on duty of locomotive engineers. Passenger Service. Month of October, 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 18. (See testimony, page 457, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (5 sheets.) Statement showing average hourly earnings and time on duty of locomotive en^incei<. Freight service. Mon Li . of October, 1911. 122 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 19 — 22. Railroad Exhibit No. 197 (See testimony, page 462, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) ■(14 sheets.) Engineers — Suburban passenger service. Statement show- ing daily compensation, actual time in charge of engine, actual time on rail and average hourly compensation for time actually in charge of engine. Railroad Exhibit No. 20. See testimony, page 466, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Number of locomotives in service. Railroad Exhibit No. 21. See testimony, page 466, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Summary of freight and passenger locomotives in service on the fifty roads of the Eastern District. Classified Statement. Railrond Exhibit No. 22. See testimony, page 466, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Summary of switching locomotives in service on the fifty roads of the Eastern District. Classified statement. 123 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 23 — 26. Railroad Exhibit No, 23. (Sep testimony, page 467, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Numbe ' and classification of locomotives placed in service since last general advance in engineers' wages. Railroad Exhibit No. 24. (S33 testimony, page 469, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement showing locomotives in service in 1900, 1905, 1910 and 1912, classified according to weight on drivers. Railroad Exhibit No. 25. (See testimony, page 474, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Summary of freight, passenger and switching locomotives in service on the fifty roads of the Eastern District. Railroad Exhibit No. 26. (See testimony, page 475, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Average speed ^ r">s«eT}" , eT ani fast freight trains, Octo- ber, "l905 and 1911. 124 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 27—30. Railroad Exhibit No. 27. (See testimony, page 478, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement No. , showing average monthly membership, the number of engineers killed and the number killed per 1,000 members, compiled from monthly reports of the Locomotive Engineers 7 Mutual Life and Accident Insurance Association published in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers' Journal. Railroad Exhibit No. 28. (See testimony, page 480, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Ages of locomotive engineers in active service. Railroad Exhibit No. 29. (See testimony, page 481, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement showing length of service as engineers of the locomo- tive engineers on the railways where now employed. Railroad Exhibit No. 30. (See testimony, page 482, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Motormen or engineers killed or injured in electric service. 125 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 31 — 34. Railroad Exhibit No. 31. (See testimony, page 482, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (4 sheets.) Number engineers employed and number killed from 1900 to 1911, inclusive. Railroad Exhibit No. 32. (See testimony, page 483, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Statement showing number of freight trains run, number of trains exceeding 16 hours and number of trains tied up un- der 16-hour law, April, 1911, to March, 1912, inclusive. Railroad Exhibit No. 33. (See testimony, page 483, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (4 sheets.) Comparison of the increase in enginemen's earnings, with the increase in cost of living, 1900 to 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 34. (See testimony, page 483, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Percentages showing increase or decrease, compared with 1900, in average daily compensation to enginemen, groups I-II- 1TT, in wholesale prices of commodities and in wholesale p.nrl retail prices of food, United States 1900 to 1911. 126 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 35 — 38. Railroad Exhibit No. 35. (See. testimony, page 483, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed..) Movement of the average daily compensation of engineers, groups I-II-III, compared with the movement of wholesale prices of all commodities : United States 1900-1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 36. (See testimony, page 483, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Movement of the average daily compensation of engineers, groups I-II-III, compared with the movement of wholesale prices of food, United States : 1900-1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 37. ( (See testimony, page 489, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Movement of the average daily compensation of engineers, groups I-II-llI, compared with the movement of retail prices of food, United States : 1900-1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 38. (See testimony, page 489, July 22, 1912.) (Not -printed.) Percentage showing relative level, when compared with 1900, of wholesale and retail prices of food, United States, 1890 to 1911. Railroad Exhibits Nos. 39 — 41. Railroad Exhibit No. 39. (See testimony, page 489, July 2:2, 1912.) (Not printed.) Movement of retail prices of food compared with the movement of wholesale prices of food, United States : 1890-1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 39-A. (See testimony, page 489, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Memorandum as to methods employed by American railways in reckoning the number of clays worked by their em- ployes. Railroad Exhibit No. 40. (See testimony, page 489, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average daily compensation of principal classes of railway em- ployees, United States and groups I to III: Fiscal years 1900 to 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 41. (See testimony, page 496, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average daily compensation of principal classes of railway em- ployes, groups I-II-III; 1900 to 1911. 128 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 42 — 45. Railroad Exhibit No. 42. (See testimony, page 496, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Increased eompensationi to railway enginemen in 1911, due to advances in rates of pay. Railroad Exhibit No. 43. (See testimony, page 498, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Increased compensation to conductors in 1911, due to advances in rates of pay. Railroad Exhibit No. 44. (See testimony, page 498, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average daily compensation of enginemen and of conductors, United States, groups I-III, IV-V and VI-X: Fiscal years 1900 to 1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 45. (See testimony, page 498, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average daily compensation of enginemen and conductors, United States, groups I-II-III, IV-V and VI-VII-VIII-IX-X, 1900-1910. 129 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 45-A — 47. Railroad Exhibit No. 45-A. (See testimony, page 499, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Approximate average annual earnings of employes in certain skilled occupations. Railroad Exhibit No. 45-B. (See testimony, page 499, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) (4 sheets.) A comparison of the wages paid various classes of skilled work- men. Railroad Exhibit No. 46. (See testimony, page 500, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Table showing relative proportion rates paid freight conductors r trainmen and firemen bear to those paid engineers in 1901, 1905 and 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 47. (See testimony, page 500, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Aggregate compensation to enginemen and aggregate train miles. Eatios and increases : Fiscal years 1900 to 1910. For the United States and for groups I to III. 130 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 48 — 51. Railroad Exhibit No. 48. (See testimony, page 501, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Percentage showing increase over 1900 in aggregate compensa- tion to eEginemen and aggregate train miles, groups III- II; 1900-1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 49. (See testimony, page 501, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Percentages showing increase over 1900 in aggregate compen- sation to enginemen ar.d aggregate train miles, United States, 1900-1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 50. (See testimony, page 504, July 22, 1912. (Not printed.) Statement of expenses and wages, with statistics relative there- to: For the calendar years 1905 and 1911, compared with 1900. Railroad Exhibit No. 51. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Comparison of increase, 1900 to 1910, in average daily compen- sation to enginemeD, average receipts per ton mile, and average receipts per passenger mile, United States and groups I to III. 131 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 52 — 55. Railroad Exhibit No. 52. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Percentages showing increase or decrease, compared with 1900, in average daily compensation to enginemen, average re- ceipts per ton mile, and average receipts per passenger mile, United States; 1900-1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 53. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Percentages showing increase or decrease, compared with 1900, in average daily compensation to enginemen, average re- ceipts per ton mile, and average receipts per. passenger mile, groups I-II-III; 1900-1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 54. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average receipts per passenger mile, groups I to III, IV and V, and VI to X : Fiscal vears 1900 to 1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 55. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average receipts per passenger mile, groups I-II-III, IV-V and VI-VII-VIII-IX-X, 1900-1910. 132 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 55-A — 57. Railroad Exhibit No. 55-A. (See testimony, page 506, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed,) Average receipts per ton mile and per passenger mile, fiscal years 1900 to 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 56. (See testimony, page 507, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average train load — tons per train. Eatios and increases, fiscal years 1900 to 1910, groups I-III, IV and V, and VI-X. Railroad Exhibit No. 56-A. (See testimony, page 508, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Average train load: Fiscal years 1900 to 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 57. (See testimony, page 507, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Tons of freight originating on the railways of groups I-Ill, IV and V, and VI-X, respectively, distributed according to class of commodity: Fiscal years 1900 to 1910. 133 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 58 — 61. Railroad Exhibit No. 58. (See testimony, page 508, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Extent to which the several classes of commodities are repre- sented in the freight traffic of groups I-III, IV-V, and VI-X; 1910. Railroad Exhibit No. 59. (See testimony, page 508, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Freight and Passenger traffic. Total traffic and density of traf- fic: Fiscal vear 1911. Raiiroad Exhibit No. 60. (See testimony, page 508, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Density of freight and passenger traffic: 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 61. (See testimony, page 509, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Density of freight and passenger traffic, groups I-III, IV-V. and VI-X: 1900-1910. 134 Railroad Exhibits' N-os. 62 — 65. Railroad Exhibit No. 62. (See testimony, page 509, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Amount and per cent, of stock respectively paying no divi- dends during the fiscal year 1911, paying dividends of less than six per cent., and paying dividends of six per cent. and over. Railroad Exhibit No. 63. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Per mile averages of total operating revenues, operating ex- penses, net operating revenue, net corporate income and surplus : Fiscal year 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 64. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Net corporate income per mile of line: 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 65. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Surplus per mile of line: 1911. 335 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 66 — 68. Railroad Exhibit No. 66. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Total operating revenues, operating expenses and net operat- ing revenue per mile of line: 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 66-A. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Eatio of enginemen's compensation to net operating revenue and to transportation expenses, and corresponding ratios under proposed wage scale, calendar year 1911. Railroad Exhibit No. 67. (See testimony, page 510, July 22, 1912.) (Not printed.) Summarized income account for the calendar year 1911. Es- timated annual increase of compensation to enginemen under proposed schedule, and estimated collateral increases to other classes of railway employees. Railroad Exhibit No. 68. (See testimony, page 520, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Eatio of taxes to net operating revenue: Fiscal years 1900 to 1911. 136 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 69 — 72. Railroad Exhibit No. 69. (See testimony, page 521, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Estimated annual cost to comply with the following full crew laws: Pennsylvania freight and passenger full crew law, effective July 18, 1911. Ohio passenger full crew law, effective July 15, 1911. Indiana freight and passenger full crew law, effective April 10, 1907. Railroad Exhibit No. 70. (See testimony, page 724, July 24, 1912.) (Not printed.) Estimate of cost to the railways to comply with present Legis- lative requirements as to safety appliances on locomotives and cars. Railroad Exhibit No. 71. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Estimated cost to comply with the Federal 16-hour law. Teleg- raphers 9-hour law, and boiler inspection law from date effective to June 1, 1912, and also estimated cost to comply fully with legislation already enacted requiring improved ash pans and electric headlights. Railroad Exhibit No. 72. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (18 sheets.) Statement of changes requested by locomotive engineers in the schedule rules now in effect, governing working con- ditions. 137 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 73 — 76. Railroad Exhibit No. 73. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Skipped in numbering. Railroad Exhibit No. 74. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Attending Court. Railroad Exhibit No. 75. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory^ Breaking in engines. Railroad Exhibit No. 76. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Called and rnt used. 138 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 77—80. Railroad Exhibit No. 77. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Combined service (Performance of two or more different classes of service in one day or trip). Railroad Exhibit No. 78. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Deadheading or running light. Railroad Exhibit No. 79. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Doubling hills or assisting other trains. Railroad Exhibit No. 80. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Emergency duty, repair work, etc. 139 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 81 — 84. Railroad Exhibit No. 81. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) '(2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Extra trips or irregular service. Railroad Exhibit No. 82. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Final terminal delay. Railroad Exhibit No. 83. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Held for duty or subject to call. Railroad Exhibit No. 84. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Held at other than home terminal. 140 Railroad Exhibits Nos. S5 — 89. Railroad Exhibit No. 85. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) 'Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Initial terminal delay. Railroad Exhibit No. 86. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers^ — Eastern territory. Inspection of engine — Time allowed. Railroad Exhibit No. 87. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Learning road or posting. Railroad Exhibit No. 88. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Lunch period in yard service — Pay for. Railroad Exhibit No. 89. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Minimum monthlv allowance. 141 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 90 — 93. Railroad Exhibit No. 90. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory. Preparing engines. Railroad Exhibit No. 91. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Switching (terminal or en route) in connection with road work. Railroad Exhibit No. 92. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern territory, Terminal mileage. Railroad Exhibit No. 93. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Eastern terri- tory. Time begins and ends. 142 Railroad Exhibit No. 94. (See testimony, page 528, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present ■ rates of pay — Locomo- tive engineers — Southeastern territory. Passenger ser- vice. "Supplementary Statement." Southeastern Territory. (Comprising 18 Roads.) Passenger: 8 pay 4.40/4.25 Cylinder division varies from 18" to 22" 5 " 4.25 all engines 1 " 4.40/3.90 Cy 22" 1 " *4.40 All Engs 'Maximum 1 " 4.20 " " 1 " 3.95 " 1 " 4.40/4.15 Cy22" 18 Overtime: 9 pay 60 cents per hour. 3 " 65 2 " 50 1 " 75 1 " 70 1 " 55 1 " 40 18 143 Railroad Exhibit No. 95. (See testimony, page 529, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) {2 sheets.) Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern territory. Through freight service. "Supplementary Statement." Southeastern Territory (18 Roads Compiled) Through Freignt: 10 pay 5.40/5.15 Cylinder division varies 20" to 22' 3 1 1 o 1 •5.40 All Engs 5.35/5.20 Cy 21' 5.25 All Engs 4.90 " " 4.70/4.60 Cv 22" * Maximum 18 vertime: 5 pay 60 cents per hour. 5 " 60 " . i t i , large engine 70 " " * & , small engine. 3 " 50 " < i a 5 " Van-. 18 144 Railroad Exhibits 96—97. Railroad Exhibit No. 96. (See testimony, page 530, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay— Locomotive en- gineers—Southeastern territory. Pushing and helping service. "Supplementary Statement." Southeastern Territory (18 Eoads Compiled) Pusher & Helper: 5 pay 5.40 1 " 5.00 1 " 4.70/4.60 Cy 22" 7 Other roads show no rate. Railroad Exhibit No. 97. (See testimony, page 530, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2- sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern territory. Switching service. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Southeastern Territory (18 Roads Compiled) Switching .- 9 pay 4.25 all yards Others vary 3.50 to 4.50 145 Railroad Exhibit No. 98. (See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern territory. Work train service. 1 Supplementary Statement. ' ' Southeastern Territory (18 Roads Compiled) Work Service: *5.40 Cy 22" and over 5 pay - 4.75 5 " 5.00 All Engs << 4.75 <« 4.40 1 " 5.25/5.00 Cv. 20" 1 " 5.25/4.90 2 Vary Mine Service: 4 pay 5.50 1 " 5.60 Other 13 not shown. * Maximum 14G Railroad Exhibit No. 99. (See testimony, page 529, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern territory. Local and way freight service. 1 o J "Supplementary Statement." Southeastern Territory (18 Eoads Compiled) Local and Way Freight: 6 pay 5.75 Maximum. 4 " 5.50 3 " 5.25 1 " 5.40 4 Vary. 18 Overtime : 9 pay 60 cents 3' " 57 " 1 " 55 " 3 " 50 " 2 Vary. per hour. 14 Li it a fi ti 18 147 Railroad Exhibits 100 — 101 Railroad Exhibit No. 100. (See testimony, page 531, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern ter- ritory. Final terminal delay. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Final Terminal Delay: 13 pay final Terminal Delay. 12 " after 30 minutes delay. 1 " actual minutes. Railroad Exhibit No. 101. (See testimony, page 531, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Losomotive engineers — Southeastern ter- ritory. Held away from home terminal. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Held Away from Home Terminal: 10 after 28 hours. 1 " 30 " 7 do not have rule. 18 148 Railroad Exhibits 102 — 104. Railroad Exhibit No. 102. (See testimony, page 531, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern ter- ritory. Initial terminal delay. ' ' SUPPL EMENTARY STATEMENT. ' ' Initial Terminal Delay. 9 Eoads pay Initial Term Delay. 7 after 1 hour or more. 1 "45 minutes. 1 " 30 '" Railroad Exhibit No. 103. See testimony, page 527, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern ter- ritory. Switching (terminal or en route) in connection with road work. Railroad Exhibit No. 104. (See testimony, page 532, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Southeastern ter- ritory. Time begins and ends. "Supplementary Statement." Time Begins and Ends: Time Begins 10 Computed from 30 minutes before train departure. 5 When reporting for duty. Others Vary. Time Ends Universal practice — when relieve;! from care of engine. 149 Railroad Exhibit No. 105. (See testimony, page 533, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) ■(7 sheets.) Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Passenger service. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' "Western Territory. (44 Roads.) Passenger: Mallet Engines Weighing Over 275,000 lbs. on Drivers : 1 road pays 6.54^' per mile. 1 ' 6.35 and 5.52 Territory Gove rns 2 ' 6.30 1 6.20 and 6.00 < i 1 6.00 3 5.90 1 5.82 1 5.80 and 5.40 i. 1 5.78 " 5.53 i i 1 5.65 " 5.40 t L 1 5.60 3 5.40 17 Mallet engines weighing 275,000 lbs. and less pay 25 cents per 100 miles less than above noted rates. 150 Railroad Exhibit 105. Maximum Rate (Engines other than Mallet.) 1 pay 5.65^ (mountain district.) 1 " 5.60 and 4.77 Territory Governs. 1 " 5.40 1 " 5.25 1 " 5.20 and 5.00 1 " 5.15 1 " 5.07 1 " 5.05 and 4.65 1 " 5.00 1 " 4.90 and -4.65 5 " 4.90 2 " 4.80 1 " 4.78 5 " 4.65 2 ' ' 4.60 2 " 4.50 1 " 4.43 14 " 4.40 42 Minimum (other than Mallet.) 1 pays 4.90 and 4.15 Territory Governs. 11 " 4.40 2 " 4.30 2 " 4.25 1 " 4.22 3 " 4.20 1 " 4.17 21 " 4.15 42 1 pays 4.25 till engines (Quincy, Omaha & Kansas). (Pro rata Overtime Prevails.) 151 Railroad Exhibit No. 106. (See testimony, page 536, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (8 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive -"Western territory. Through freight service. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Western Territory (43 Roads) Through Freight: Mallet Engines Over 275,000 lbs. on drivers : 1 pars 6.75 and 6.30 Territory Governs 5.95 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 6.65 6.60 6.57 6.40 6.40 6.35 6.33 6.30 6.25 6.35 6.30 18 Mallet Engines 275,000 lbs. or less on drivers : 1 1 1 1 1 5 1 1 5 1 pays 6.50 and 6.40 6.35 6.32 6.15 6.15 6.10 6.0s 6.05 6.C0 6.05 Territory Governs 5.70 6.10 6.05 152 Railroad Exhibit 106. Maximum (Other than Mallet, Including Mikados) 1 pays 5.90 1 1 1 5.85 1 1 1 5.82 1 i i. 5.75 1 a 5.70 5 i ( 5.65 1 1 < 5.60 2 i t 5.55 1 i i 5.50 1 1 1 5.45 9 1 1 5.40 8 i i 5.30 5 i i 5.20 1 1 1 5.05 1 ti 4.43 inimw. .1 m : pays 5.33 1 n 5.05 1 i i 5.00 10 i i 4.95 3 i I 4.90 14 i I 4.80 1 it 4.75 1 i i 4.70 1 i i 4.65 5 L C 4.60 1 i t 4.22 2 pays 4.90 All Engines 1 " 4.80 " Pro Rata Overtime Prevails 153 Railroad Exhibit No. 107. (July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (8 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Western territory. Local and way freight service. ' ' supplementaey statement. ' ' Western Tehbitoey (40 Roads) Local and Way Freight: Mallet over 275,000 lbs. on drivers: 1 pars 7.00 and 6.55 Territory Governs 1 '"' 6.93 1 " 6.85 1 " 6.80 1 " 6.75 1 " 6.70 3 " 6.65 1 " 6.60 1 " 6.57 4 " 6.55 1 " 6.35 1 " 6.33 17 Mallet 275,000 lbs. or less drivers 1 pays 6.75 and 6.30 Territory Governs 1 " 6.65 1 " 6.60 1 " 6.55 1 " 6.50 1 " 6.45 3 " 6.40 1 " 6.35 1 " 6.32 4 " 6.30 1 " 6.15 1 i( 6.08 17 154 Railroad Exhibit 107. Maximum (Engines Other than Mallet, inc. Mikados) 1 1 pays C i 6.25 6.15 1 i I 6.05 1 i i 6.00 1 1 1 5.95 1 a 5.90 2 i c 5.85 1 i < 5.83 1 i i 5.82 2 i i 5.80 3 i i 5.70 7 i t 5.65 1 1 1 5.60 10 t. i 5.55 1 1 1 5.50 1 i t 5.45 1 1 1 5.30 1 ■ i 4.43 37 Minimum : 2 1 pays 5.45 5.33 10 i i 5.30 1 4 ( 5.28 3 i i 5.20 1 a 5.15 1 i i 5.10 5 i i 5.05 1 i i 5.00 1 1 1 4.95 ' 5 t i 4.90 3 i ■ 4.85 2 a 4.80 1 i i 4.22 37 1 1 pays $5.50 All Engines 5.10 1 i < 4.90 (Pro rata Overtime Prevails) 135 Railroad Exhibit No. 108. (July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Western, territory. Switching service. "Supplementary Statement." Western Territory (46 Roads) Switching : 1st Class Yards — 10 hour day 1 pavs 5.50 (Mallet) 4.50 & 4.25 According to Class of Eng. 6 " 5.25 5.00 (Mallet) & 4.25 1 " 4.50 and 4.25 19 " 4.25 2 " 4.00 29 2nd Class Yards — 1 pays 5.50 (Mallet) 4.50 & 4.00 According to Class of Eng. 6 '"< 5.00 4.75 (Mallet) & 4.00 1 " 4.25 and 4.00 19 " 4.00 2 " 3.75 29 All Yards — 1 pays 4.50 and 4.25 According to Class of Eng. 11 " 4.25 3 " 4.00 2 " 3.75 17 Pro rata Overtime 156 Railroad Exhibit No. 109. July 23, 1912. , (Not printed.) -(4 sheets.) Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Pushing and helping service. ' ' supplementary statement. ' ' Western Territory (22 Roads) Pusher and Helper Mallet over 275,000 lbs. on drivers: 1 pays 6.57 and 6.35 Territory Governs 1 2 i t 6.40 6.30 1 i I 6.25 i i 5.40 1 i t 6.05 i t 6.00 2 I i 6.00 1 i i 5.90 2 i I 5.40 11 Mallets 275,000 lbs. or less on drivers : 1 pays 6.32 and 6.10 Territory Governs 1 i i 6.15 2 a 6.05 1 1 1 6.00 ii 5.15 < i i ( 1 i t 5.80 i i 5.75 1 1 i < 2 i t 5.75 1 1 1 5.65 2 n 5.15 11 157 Railroad Exhibit 109. Maximum (Other than Mallet, including Mikado) 1 pays 5.90 1 < ' 5.82 1 ' 1 5.79 1 ' < 5.65 1 ' ' 5.50 1 ' < 5.40 3 ' ' 5.30 1 < ' 5.20 3 ' ' 5.00 1 ' ' 4.90 1 ' ' 4.80 1 < ' 4.65 1 ' ' 4.40 17 Minimum i pa: fs 5.40 1 ' < 5.30 1 ' ' 5.00 1 ' ' 4.90 3 ' ' 4.60 6 ' 1 4.40 1 < ' 4.35 1 ' ' 4.25 2 ' ' 4.15 17 5 pa; f 4.40 All Engines Pro rata Overtime Prevails 158 Railroad Exhibit No. 110. July 23, 1912. (Not printed.) (5 sheets.) Comparative statement. Present rates of pay — Locomotive engineers — Western territory. Work train service. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Western Tereitory (42 Eoads) Work Train Service Mallet i Dver 275,000 lbs. on drivers : 2 pay 6.30 1 a 6.20 2 a 6.00 4 a 5.90 1 a 5.80 1 t i 5.80, 5.65 and 5.55 Territory Governs 1 it 5.65 1 i t 5.45 13 Mallet 275,000 lbs. or less on drivers : 6.05 5.95 5.75 5.65 5.55 5.55, 5.40 and 5.30 Territory Governs. 5.45 5.15 13 2 pay 1 it 2 (i 4 n 1 IC 1 i i 1 a 1 tt 159 Railroad Exhibit 110. Maximum (Other than Mallet, including Mikados) 2 pay 5.55 2 < ' 5.40 3 ' ' 5.30 2 ' ' 5.20 3 ' ' 5.15 2 < ' 5.05 4 ' ' 5.00 4 ' ' 4.90 3 ' < 4.80 3 ' ' 4.65 Minimum i pa: rs 4.90 1 ' ' 4.70 1 ' ' 4.65 5 ' ' 4.60 1 ' 1 4.55 17 ' ' 4.40 1 ' ' 4.35 1 < ' 4.25 28 1 pa: as 4.90 All Engines 1 ' < 4.80 1 ' ' 4.60 8 < ' 4.40 1 ' ' 4.25 • 1 ' ' 4.15 1 ' ' 3.90 14 Pro rata Overtime Prevails 160 Railroad Exhibits 111—112. Railroad Exhibit No. 111. (See testimony, page 544, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Final terminal delay. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Western Territory (46 Eoads Compiled) Final Terminal Delay: 28 roads pay Final Terminal Delay : 17 after 30 minutes 5 actual minutes 3 after 15 minutes 1 " 20 2 " 1 hour Railroad Exhibit No. 113. (See testimony, page 544, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Western territory. Held at other than home terminal. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Held at Other than Home Terminal: 8 pay for time held under varying conditions, time varies from 20 to 48 hours 161 Railraad Exhibits 113 — 114. Railroad Exhibit No. 113. (See testimony, page 544, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Initial terminal delay. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Initial Terminal Delay: 34 roads pay Initial Terminal Delay 19 after 1 hours' detention 1 " 45 minutes' 9 " 30 " " 1 " 15 " " 4 not defined Railroad Exhibit No. 114. July 23, 1912. (Not printed.) (3 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Switching (terminal or en route) in connection with road work. 162 Railroad Exhibits 115 — 117. Railroad Exhibit No. 115. (See testimony, page 544, July 23, 1912.) (Not printed.) (2 sheets.) Present regulations — Locomotive engineers — Western ter- ritory. Time begins and ends. ' ' Supplementary Statement. ' ' Western Territory (46 Eoads Compiled) Time Begins and Ends: Time begins — 12 at time of departure 11 at time ordered to leave 9 30 minutes before time of departure 7 time designated in Caller's Book 2 when beginning work 1 1 hour after signing Caller's Book Railroad Exhibit No. 116. (See testimony, page 677, July 24, 1912.) (Not printed.) (Same as Exhibit No. 118.) Railroad Exhibit No. 117. (See testimony, page 677, July 24, 1912.) (Not printed.) (Same as Exhibit No. 119.) 163 Railroad Exhibits 118 — 119. Railroad Exhibit No. 118. (See testimony, page 705, July 24, 1912.) (Not printed.) Chart showing freight rates paid prior to and since June 1, 1910, compared with present and proposed basic mileage, rates. Railroad Exhibit No. 119. (See testimony, page 706, July 24, 1912.) (Not printed.) Chart showing passenger rates paid prior to and since June 1, 1910, compared with present and proposed basic mileage rates. 164 Railroad Exhibit No. 120. (See testimony, page 836, July 25, 1912.) (The four photographs attached to this Exhibit are not printed.) Explanation of Table Showing Dimensions of Engines; and Also the Photographs Attached. The accompanying table and photographs are for the pur- pose of illustrating the different types of engines and the present and proposed rates which would apply under the locomotive engineers' demands. It is submitted with especial reference to the inconsistency of using the diameter of the cylinders as a basis for determining the wage. The capacity of the locomotive is not measured by one dimension, because the capacity involves also the stroke of the cylinders, the diameter of the driving wheels, the weight on drivers, or whether the engine is designed for slow or fast service, or to pull a light load or a heavy one. In fixing a rate for it, the service in which it is employed must also be considered. The locomotive engineers admit that en- gines in passenger service should receive a lower rate than en- gines in freight service, even when classified by diameters. This is on the proper theory that the higher speeds permit them to earn much more money. They assume that all freight service is alike. As a matter of fact, this is not the case. There is a large class of freight known as "Fast Freight," which passes over the road in about one-half the time taken by slow freight, and the yarning ca- pacity of the men in such fast freight service is much greater than in the slow service. Notwithstanding this fact, it will be observed that the Pacific type of engine, marked "K," which is used in the fast freight service, is to draw a higher rate of pay than either the engines in passenger service, shown on the table, or the large consolidation freight engines used in the slow freight service. This inconsistency and fallacy has arisen from the use of diameters of the cylinders as a measure, because on fast freight engines a large diameter and a short stroke are used in order to obtain a smart engine for that purpose, al : though it has not the capacity of the consolidation engine for hauling loads. 165 Railroad Exhibit 120. Freight Engines Class: Cylinders, Inches: Diam.: Stroke: Diameter of Drivers, Inches: Total Weight on Drivers, Lbs.: Maximum Drawbar Pull, Lbs.: Present Rate: Proiosed Rate: G-2 /23- \35 x 34 Heavy freight Engines. 63 166,000 39,000 $4.85 $5.50 ' G-3 G-5 20 23 23 x 26 x 30 x 32 51 51 63 131,000 200,000 200,000 31,000 47,000 47,000 it it u 5.25 5.50 G-6 23 x 32 y 63 211,000 47,000 u It fK-10 24 x 26 \ Fast Freight Engines. [K-ll 26 x 26 J 69 1 69 165,000 172,000 38,700 40,000 a ct $5.75 (I XH-5 25 x 32 63 215,000 50,000 u (I Various Various $4.75 $5.25 & various N /21-J. \ 34 x Yr 32 300,000 68,000 5.85 $7.00 X means Mikado. * means Mallet. Passenger Engines. r / 18 x 2]2\ u \ 19 x 24/ Various 70,000 85,000 } Various $4.15 $4.40 T l2Q-y 2 x 261 1 \21-H x 26/ 79 102,000 106,000 } 24,000 $4.15 $4.60 K-2 & 3 22 x 28 1 23-H x 26/ 79 171,000 I 30,000 $4.15 $4.60 166 Page 1 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. (See testimony, page 871, July 26, 1912.) -Statement of Me. Atteebuey, Vice-President of Pennsylvania Railboad Co. Introduction It is believed that recitation of the facts surrounding the adop- tion of, and which led up to the revised regulations and rates which became effective in 1910, to be pertinent to the consideration of the questions at issue. The following is quoted from the decision of Arbitrators E. E. Clark and P. EL Morrissey who settled, upon May 4, 1910, the con- troversy between the Conductors and Trainmen and the _N"ew York Central. "The employes (Conductors and Trainmen) on the eastern lines had their request and proposal for increase in pay already for sub- mitting to the management of the roads when the financial depression of 1907 occurred. Realizing the impossibility of securing at that time favorable consideration, all such requests and proposals were with- held awaiting a revival of business conditions and of earnings and early in the present year (1910) were presented generally to the man- agements of the roads east of Chicago and St. Louis and north of the line of the Chesapeake & Ohio Railway. It happened that the efforts of the employes through their organ- ization to reach adjustments with an individual line were first made on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, and that, therefore, became the trial ground for the establishment of the higher scales of pay and of substantially uniform conditions of the roads in the territory de- scribed, and modifications of the original proposals of the employes made in that settlement necessarily established precedents of great weight in subsequent settlements on other lines. The adjustment on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad was agreed to between the management and officers of the employes' organizations as result of exhaustive negotiations, and of the efforts of the Chairman of the Interstate Commerce Commission, Judge Knapp, and the United States Commissioner of Labor, Dr. Neill, acting as meditators under the so-called Erdman Arbitration Act." As a result of conferences held in Baltimore, terminating upon March 12, 1910, the controversy between the men and the Company was settled, the main principle asked by the men being — ''That 100 miles or less upon the distance basis, or ten hours or less upon the time basis, be considered a day" — same being granted. The following is a further quotation from the decision of the Arbitrators upon the New York Central, to which road the representa- tives of the employes' organizations transferred their efforts after negotiations with the Baltimore & Ohio were opened. 167 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 2 "We recognize fully the importance and desirability of the nearest possible approach to uniformity in pay of employes in service in a giv- en territory, but the nearest approach to such uniformity has always recognized some variations on account of differing conditions on dif- ferent lines of road. We shall award the rates and rules which we re- gard as the proper standards in this territory (that of the New York Central Lines) ; at the same time we shall prescribe certain exceptions due to local conditions which are peculiar to this line, and so postpone the effective date of the part of the increase awarded, solely because the increase and the percentage of increase necessary to reach those standards on this system are much greater than are necessary on any other system in this territory upon which settlement has been made, and much greater than will be necessary on any system in this territory of which we have knowledge." Conferences were begun with the • representatives of the Conduct- ors' and Trainmen's organizations who had handled for the organiza- tions the negotiations with the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad and the New York Central, by the management of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh, in Philadelphia, June 28th, succeeding conferences being held at the same place upon July 13, 14, 18, 28 and 30th At that time, and prior thereto, all employes in the train service, viz: enginemen and firemen, conductors and trainmen, had been paid upon the trip or piece work basis; i.e., for each trip a rate was deter- mined and based upon careful consideration of the following points, namely : 1st: The prevailing rates in the district for like service were al- ways taken into consideration. 2nd: The ability of the employe to earn a fair wage consistent with reasonable hours of service. 3rd : The character of the service performed, together with local conditions. 4th : The length of run and whether on single, round-trip, or com- bination of short trips. 5th : The length and convenience of the lay-over, with a view of having the major portion at the home terminal. The Baltimore & Ohio Railroad settlement and the New York Central award recognized the introduction of the so-called mileage basis of payment, under which the amounts paid employes in the train service should be essentially upon the basis of a fixed rate per mile. The basic rates of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad agreement and the New York Central award were adopted as a part of the regulations and rates of pay for the government of trainmen in road and yard service finally accepted as results of conferences between representa- tives of the Company and the organizations, as having begun on June 28, 1910, and continuing through July of that year. 168 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 3 The following statement showing the basic rates applying to trainmen in the Baltimore & Ohio settlement, and the New York Cen- tral award, shows how closely the Pennslyvania Eailroad settlement coincided with that of the roads named. B. & O. Settlement N. Y. C. Award P.R.R. Regulations Rate Overtime Rate Overtime Rate Overtime per Mile per Hour per Mile per Hour per Mile per Hour cts. ets. cts. cts. cts. cts. Passenger Conductor 2.68 42 2.68 42 2.68 42 Baggage Man: 25 1.55 25 1.55 25 (Without Express. 1 . 55 ■ • (Handling Express 1 . 65 .... Passenger Flagman . . 1 . 525 24 .... Passenger Brakeman 1.50 23 1.50 24 1.50 24 Through Frt. Con- ductor 3.63 Prorata 3.63 Prorata 3.63 36 Through Pit. Flag- man 2.525 " " 2.525 " " 2.525 25 Through Frt. Brake- man 2.42 " " 2.42 " " 2.42 24 Local Frt. Conductor 3.90 to 3.975" " 3.975 " " 3.975 40 Local Frt. Flagman.. 2.80 " " 2.80 " " 2.80 28 Local Frt. Brakeman 2.70 " " 2.70 " " 2.70 27 At a joint meeting, of Conductors and Trainmen held in Boston, October, 1909, proposed rates, rules and regulations were adopted, which were subsequently submitted to all the railroads in the eastern territory and became the basis of the controversy referred to upon the Baltimore and Ohio and New York Central roads. The proposed scale, which was approved and adopted at the meetings in Boston referred to, did not obtain approval of the employes concerned upon the Pennsyl- vania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh, and in lieu thereof, these employes, through their representatives, arranged a scale essentially higher than the one presented to other lines in the eastern territory, and which was presented to the Pennslyvania management and be- came the basis of conference referred to which began in June, 1910. The management of the Pennslyvania Railroad Lines East met their firemen in a series of conferences, begun upon September 13th and ending September 20, 1910, at which conferences rales, regula- tions and rates proposed and submitted to the management, were dis- cussed. These conferences closed with the mutual acceptance of rules and 169 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 4 regulations consistent with those previously accepted for the govern- ment of trainmen, and involved the change in the basis of payment from the previously existing trip basis to the so-called mileage basis. Upon November 11, 1910, a series of conferences between the Pennslyvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh management and rep- resentatives of the engineers' organizations were begun in connection with modified rules and regulations submitted to the management for adoption. These conferences terminated upon December 9, 1910, with the mutual acceptance of rules, regulations and rates consistent with those previously accepted for the government of Trainmen and Fire- men. It should be said, however, that during these conferences repre- sentatives of the employes raised a considerable number of objections to the adoption of the mileage basis, but because of the inconsistency of paying engineers, firemen and trainmen, particularly the firemen, upon any other than the same basis, the so-called mileage basis was finally accepted. In this connection the following quoted from the statement from representatives of engineers, raising objection to the introduction of the mileage basis near the close of conference 1 with our Management in Xovember and December, 1910, is pertinent. "It was through the Pittsburgh Division that constructive mile- age was last brought up, and in behalf of the men of the Pittsburgh Division I want to say a few words. I will be as brief as possible. In your own proposition there it is understood that you will take nothing away from us under any circumstances, and as I cited here to try to make it plain to the General Superintendents and satisfy their minds, in years gone by, Mr. Pitcairn particularly, and back as far as Mr. Carnegie, in establishing the rate per day for this Pittsburgh Division (117 miles), their practice always was to take the time and compare it with the Middle Division (132 miles) time, on a level piece of railroad, to get at the basic principle of it, and always maintained the same rate of pay : or, in other words, gave the Pittsburgh Division 132 miles. T\ T e have some additional miles under the rates that are paid at present, but we have not constructive mileage enough to bring us to 132 miles. There is only about eight miles difference. I do not con- sider it a very large matter. It would not satisfy our men at home, so far as the mountain is concerned. I think in all candidness and fairness a man that cannot see the point that there is more labor, more hazard and hardship connected with crossing a division with 37 miles of mountain in it — I cannot look at it that it is a spirit of fair- ness, when we come down to the mileage proposition. Excuse me, I do not mean to throw any insinuations in speaking as I do, only that in fairness we are all entitled 170 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 5 to our different opinions, and I cannot see, in the sense of- fairness to the men at home, if they are required to run that mountain division, 37 miles on it, at the 4.15 cents per mile rate, and 1 positively know that our men at home will not be satisfied with it. That is why I want to go down on record as having tried to uphold a principle that I thought was fair and just and upright." From the foregoing, it will be observed that, partly on account of the Company's desire, expressed to representatives of the employes prior to the New York Central award, to do as well by its employes as any other company in this territory, although the so-called mileage basis was not considered by our Management to be as equitable or de- sirable as our former trip basis of payment, it was thought that, the immediately preceding Baltimore & Ohio settlement and the Sew York Central award practically prohibited a contest on the point of accept- ing the so-called mileage basis when the representatives of the train- men began conferences with our Management. Our regulations and rates of pay for the government of engineers, firemen and trainmen, accepted in 1910, provided that — "The follow- ing rates of pay and general rules will apply alike to all territory covered by these regulations, except when otherwise specified, but it is the intention to apply them in s\ich a manner as to neither increase or decrease any existing higher rates." By reason of the foregoing and the Company's liberality in the interpretation thereof, the ap- plication of the mileage basis to our runs was of a modified and condi- tional character in that rates lower than the mileage rates were brought up to the mileage rate, while rates higher than the milage rate were not reduced. According to the rates of pay and conditions surrounding each of our runs before and after the 1910 adjustment practically all of them can be classified under four headings, namely : Case Wo. 1. — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which overtime began prior to and following the revision of rules, rates and regulations of 1910, is greater than the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by the sped of ten miles per hour. Case JSTo. 2. — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which overtime began prior to and fol- lowing the revision of rules, rates and regulations of 1910, is equiva- lent to the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by the speed of ten miles an hour. Case Ko. 3. — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which the overtime began prior to and fol- lowing the revision of rules, rates and regulations of 1910, is less than the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by the speed of ten miles an hour. Case No. 4. — Where the trip rates existing prior to 1910, ad- justments exceeded the rates based upon either miles or hours under the rules, regulations and rates as revise! in 1910. 171 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 6 Statements exhibiting these eases shown on pages 7, 8 & 9. Statement shown on page 9 giving the earnings of engineers un- der an unqualified basis of miles or hours, and new rates and regula- tions adopted in 1910. Case No. 1 exemplifies the inequalities in favor of the employes manifest in the higher minimum trip rate than the actual mileage justifies. Payment therefore exceeds that on either a mileage or hourly basis, in case of runs made in a less number of hours than required to cover the trip rate paid. By far, the larger portion of our freight runs fall under this class. For trips falling under Case Ao. 2, there is no difference in re- sults of payment under the rules and regulations of 1910 and the miles or hours of payment. In case Xo. 3, however, where the number of hours is less than if based on the ten mile per hour speed limit applied to the actual mileage inequalities in favor of the employe develops by reason of the payment of overtime beginning in advance of that produced by the mileage basis, and this advantage obtains on all such runs that run into overtime. In all cases where the previous trip rate exceeded that obtained upon either the basis of miles or hours, the former was allowed to stand, as shown in case No. -1, which was also a distinct advantage to the employe. Attention is called to statement shown upon page 10 showing the average length of run, average number of hours on duty, and the average earnings per hour for enginemen upon through and local pas- senger trains and fast and slow freights. 172 Railroad Exhibit No. 12G-A. Page 7 Statement Showing Information Pertinent to the Determina- tion of Trip Rates Adopted in 1910 — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie Actual Trip Constructive Trip Trip Case Mileage Rate* Hours Mileage * Rate + Rate% 1 Delmar and Perryville 110 $5.33 12 120 $5.82 $5.82 2 Sunbury and Honey Pot and return 110 5.33 11 110 5.33 5.33 3 Hypothetical Run (x) 110 5.33 10 100 4.85 5.33 4 Camden and Maurice River and return 112 5.43 11 110 5.33 6.66 * Based upon Actual Milage. At expiration of which the payment of overtime began prior to and follow- ing revision of Rules, Rates, and Regulations in 1910. # Obtained by use of an assumed average speed of 10 miles per hour. + Obtained by use of Constructive Milage. % Paid in accordance with 1910 Rules, Regulation, and Rates, (x) There is no run upon Penna. Lines Bast actual length of which is 110 miles, and the "Hours" are exactly 10. There are, however, a consider- able number of freight runs the actual milage of which exceeds the "Hours" multiplied by 10, in connection with which see statement show- ing "Freight Runs upon Eastern and Western Penna. Divisions, Actual Mileage of which exceeds the "Hours" multiplied by 10." Case I — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which overtime began prior to and fol- lowing the revision of rules, rates and regulations of 191U, is greater than the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by an assumed speed of ten miles an hour. Case II — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which overtime began prior to and fol- lowing the revision of rules, rates, and regulations of 1910, is equivalent to the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by an assumed speed of ten miles an hour. Case III — Where the long established arbitrary number of hours, at the expiration of which overtime began prior to and fol- lowing the revision of rules, rates, and regulations of 1910, is less than the number of hours obtained by dividing the actual mileage by an assumed speed of ten miles an hour. Case IIII — Where the trip rate existing prior to the 1910 adjust- ments exceeded the earnings based upon either miles or hours under the rules, regulations and rates as revised in 1910. Phila., Pa., July Hi, 1912. 173 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 8 Statement Showing Feeight Buns upon Eastern and Western Pennsylvania Divisions, Actual Mileage of which exceeds the ' ' Hours ' ' Multiplied by 10. Actual Constructive* Mileage «Hours Mins. Mileage Harrisburg and West Morrisville 131 12 . . 120 * Enola " " " 132 12 , . 120 * Philadelphia and " " and return 124.8 12 .. 120 Phila. and Downingtown and return 40 3 50 38 Philada. and Paoli and return 40 3 50 38 " " Newark Center and return. . 130.8 11 30 115 " " Morrisville via Philadelphia Division 68.7 5 45 51 Altoona and Harrisburg 127 12 . . 120 + " " Enola 124 12 .. 120 + Hollidaysburg and Harrisburg 134 12 .. 120 " " Enola 131 12 .. 120 Harrisburg, Clover Creek and return to Huntingdon 142 12 . . 120 Tyrone and Harrisburg 117 11 30 115 East Altoona and Alleghany via Cone- maugh Division 132 12 . . 120 Shire Oaks Yard, Marianna and return, in- cluding Cokesburg Branch 110.4 11 .. 110 «At the expiration of which the payment of overtime began prior to and following revision of Rules, Rates, and Regulations in 1910. "Obtained by application of an assumed average speed of ten miles per hour to time shown in the "Hrs. Mins" column. * Constitutes approximately 30% of the Philadelphia Division freight business,' +Constitutes approximately 95% of the Middle Division freight business Philadelphia, Pa., July 13, 1912. 174 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 9 Statement Showing Earnings of Engineers upon an Unquali- fied Basis of " Miles or Hours," and under Eates and Regulations Adopted upon Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie in 1910. Engineers' Earnings Case Time Upon Unqualified [Consumed Basis of , on Trip Miles or Hours Hours on Miles on Hours Under Excess Rates & Regulations under Present Adopted in 1910 Rates & Trip Rate Overtime Total Regulations Case No. 1 where arbi- 9 $5.33 $5.82 $5.82 .49* trary hours are greater 10 5.33 5.82 5.82 .49* than Actual Mileage 11 5.33 or 5.33 5.82 5.82 .49* 12 5.82 5.82 5.82 .00 13 6.30. 5.82 .485 6.30 .00 Case No. 2 where arbi- 9 5.33 5.33 5.33 .00 trary hours are equiva- 10 5.33 5.33 5.33 .00 lent to Actual Mileage. 11 5.33 or 5.33 ' 5.33 5.33 .00 12 5.82 5.33 .485 5.82 .00 13 6.30 5.33 .97 6.30 .00 Case No. 3 where arbi- 9 5.33 5.33 5.33 .00 trary hours are less than 10 5.33 5.33 5.33 .00 Actual Mileage J 11 ' 5.33 or 5.33 5.33 .485 5.82 .49* 12 5.82 5.33 .97 6.30 .48* 13 6.30 5.33 1.455 6.79 .48* Case No. 4 where previous 9 5.43 6,66 6.66 1.23* trip rates exceed Miles 10 5.43 6.66 6.66 1.23* or Hours 11 5.43 6.66 6.66 1.23* 12 5.82 6.66 .485 7.15 1.33* 13 6.30 6.66 .97 7.63 1.33* N6te. — *Paid for service not rendered upon either a Mileage or Time basis. Philadelphia, Pa., July 13, 1912. 175 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 10 Statement Showing Aveeage Hourly Earnings and Time on Duty of Locomotive Engineers on Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie — For Month of Octo- ber, 1911. Passenger Trains Freight Trains Item Through Local Fast Slow 1 — Average Length of Run (Miles) 118.4 84.9 108.6 79.2 2— Total No. of Trains Run 11,434 10,490 6,285 22,978 3— Total Miles Run 1,353,304 891,069.6 682.463 1,818,902 4— Total Hours on Rail.. 47,845.9 46,833.5 50,488.6 210,521.9 5— Average Hours on Rail 4.18 4.46 8.03 9.11 6— Total Hours on Duty. 53,562.9 52,078.5 53,631.1 222,010.9 7 — Average Hours on Du- ty 4.68 4.96 8.53 9.66 8— Total Amount Earned $58,963.67 43,945.28 36,906.56 123,933.80 9 — Average Amount per Hour on Rail 1.232 .938 .731 .588 10 — Average Amount per Hour on Duty 1.101 .844 .688 .558 Note. — Information covers a sufficient number of runs to take care of 75% of the business upon each Superintendent's division. Philadelphia, Pa., June 13, 1912. 176 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 11. Should Wages and Rules of Service be Standardized We contend, for reasons which will hereinafter be pointed out, that standardization of rates and regulations cannot be equitable to the Company and the employes without a standardization of conditions. As a matter of fact, under a strict interpretation of standardization upon either a distance or time basis our rates cannot be said to be standardized, although standardization upon the so-called mileage basis was nominally adopted in 1910. The Company contends that wages and rules of service should not be standardized because of the failure of standardization to recognize dissimilar physical characteristics upon its various divisions and por- tions of the same divisions, which opinion is favorably touched upon in the JSTew York Central award in the summer of 1910, as referred to on page No. 2, line No. 1 of this argument. The more exacting nature of the service required on mountain di- visions where maximum speed of trains is lower, particularly on as- cending grades, and where full knowledge of conditions affecting con- trol of trains on these grades, as well as a strict observance of all in- structions and rules pertaining thereto, justifies the existence of a fa- vorable differential in contrast with dissimilar conditions where the runs are upon comparatively level sections and whose operations are not accompanied by so many adverse operating conditions. The varying traffic conditions existing upon the various divisions and portions thereof to some extent justifies the existence of a differ- ential in the rate per mile paid engineers. These traffic conditions are reflected in the density of train and car movements, number of meets and passes to be made, number of general notices and orders with which engineers must be familiar, number of signals to be observed, size of locomotives, class of trains handled as well as the character of the service and the number of operations to be served. Service under light traffic conditions is certainly much less onerous and should be reflected in a less rate of pay more nearly corresponding to the service rendered. Statement shown on pages Xos. 12 and 13 gives the variation in traffic density on selected portions of our main and branch lines, indicating very forcibly the marked variation in traf- fic density, which is reflected in the items enumerated above, tending to render the work of engineers less exacting on the light traffic divisions than on the more busy sections of our line.' For example: On the Lewisburg and Tryone Railroad, Eastern Penna. Division portion, the total train movements per day is four trains handling eighteen cars, whereas on the Philadelphia Division, passing Thorndale, Ave have two hundred and eleven train Continued on Page 14. 177 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 12 Statement Showing Variation in Traffic Density (Average Daily Car and Train Movement Passing Selected Points) of Selected Portions of the Main and Branch Lines — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Division Passenger Freight or Branch Passing Trains Cars Trains Cars Lewistown to Selina Grove Jet MeClure 6 20 4 68 York, Hanover and Frederick R. R Spring Grove 6 21 4 97 Lewisburg & Tyrone R. R. (Erie Div. por- tion) Coburn 4 12 2 26 Lewisburg & Tyrone R. R. (E. Pa. Div. portion) Tyrone 4 4* 18 Tyrone Div. (Bev. Br.) Milesburg 8 26 28 1,508 Pomeroy & Newark Br Buck Run 4 8 2 50 New Holland Branch New Holland 6 27 4 51 Phila. Div. (main line) Thorndale 84 630 127 5,383 Middle" " " Denholm 72 513 90 5,867 Pgh. " " " Gallitzin 69 503 135 6,407 Indiana Branch Black Lick 10 36 10 155 Popes Creek Branch Marlboro 4 16 4 55 Rochester Branch Cuylerville 6 20 8 244 New York Div. (main line) Monmouth Jet. 172 1,104 102 4,429 Md. Div. (main line) Bellevue 105 618 67 2,056 Delaware Division: Townsend to Centrav'l Price 4 12 2 15 Massey to Chestertown Lambson 4 12 2 17 Clayton to Oxford Kenton 4 19 4 68 Georgetown to Franklin City Stockley 5 22 13 283 Seaford to Cambridge Oak Grove 4 12 4 46 Harrington to Rehoboth Broadkill 6 14 2 24 *Mixed Trains Philadelphia, Pa., July 3,. 1912. 178 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 13 Statement Showing Statistics Reflecting the Varying Traf- fic and Operating Conditions Existing upon Various Por- tions of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, Taken From its Annual Report for the Year 1911. Eastern Penna. Division Mileage Operated 1,341.21 Avg. miles each passenger was carried 30.73 Avg. no. of passenger per car mile 14 Avg. revenue per passenger per mile (cents). . 2.076 Avg. cost per passenger per mile (cts) 1.752 Avg. net revenue per passenger per mile (cents) 0.324 No. of passengers carried per mile of road.. . . 11,814 No. of passengers carried one mile per mile of road 363,043 Revenue passenger train mileage per mile of road 6,883 Avg. number of passengers per revenue train mile 53 Avg. number of passenger cars per revenue train mile 5.97 Passenger train revenue (cents) 139.1 Passenger train expenses (cents) 132.9 Net passenger train revenue (cts) 6.2 Freight Avg. number of tons in loaded car (revenue freight) 28.45 Avg. train load-tons (revenue frt.) 788.98 Avg. number of loaded cars in train (revenue freight) 27.74 Average number of empty cars in train (rev- enue freight) 17.49 Avg. revenue per ton (cts) 62.9 Avg. revenue per ton per mile (cts) 0.485 Avg. cost per ton per mile (cents) 0.308 Avg. net revenue per ton per mile (c) 0.177 Total number of tons carried one mile per mile of road 7,319,147 Revenue frt. train mileage per mile of road. . . 8,802 Western New- Penna. Jersey Erie Northern Division Division Division Division 712.36 532.95 642.87 788.40 18.51 25.14 25.64 28.66 16 19 14 12 2.014 1.852 2.214 2.123 1.907 1.709 2.089 2.187 0.107 0.143 0.125 0.064 loss 26,488 53,176 5,264 3,866 490,357 1,336,675 134,959 110,814 7,699 16,881 2,999 2,811 64 79 45 39 5.71 5.35 4.83 4.46 158.1 175.3 119.6 100.9 166.0 164.3 125.1 114.5 7.9 loss 11.0 5.5 loss 13.6 loss 26.29 622.53 23.68 23.85 520.54 21.83 23.68 673.51 28.45 25.57 520.26 20.34 11.32 11.34 11.19 11.73 39.1 52.0 48.4 74.5 0.702 0.994 0.526 0.509 0.491 0.785 0.353 0.394 0.211 0.209 0.173 0.115 6,418,338 3,637,146 3,532,051 2,463,707 9,405 6,740 5,098 4,528 Philadelphia, Pa., June 20, 1912. 179 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 14 movements and .3,(113 cars, including both passenger and freight busi- ness. Engineers upon our lines sometime since maintained that a flat mileage basis is wrong and referred particularly to the case on the Pittsburgh Division, where in establishing the rate of pay between Al- toona and Pittsburgh (117 miles), the rate was fixed the same as for the Middle Division, Harrisburg to Altoona (132 miles), claiming that this differential in favor of the Pittsburgh Division was due to the character or general profile of the division as compared with the Middle Division. On pages Xos. 1;) and 15 is shown a statement reflecting the varying traffic and operating conditions existing upon various portions of the P. E. R. Lines East and 1911 operating revenues, operating ex- penses and operating ratio of selected branch roads, which roads are op- erated as portions of the P. P. P. Lines East. This exhibit shows a marked variation in the earning capacity of the different branches which, to some extent, fixes the character of the service required of em- ployes, either relatively high or low in the service scale, at a point in harmony witli the earning capacity of the various divisions or portions thereof, and as well the ability of the line (ultimately the public) to pay. The operating ratio on most of these lines is now extremely high and on a number the business must be handled at a heavy loss. Standardization upon mileage basis is wrong because it ultimate- ly requires the non-profitable branches to handle a lower class or less dense traffic and under less exacting conditions and methods of opera- tion to pay a standard wage, usually, if not always, fixed by compari- son with the most exacting conditions obtaining on the more prosperous sections of our lines; this for the reason that the tendency is always towards the levelling up process to the higher rates rather than bring- ing them to the lower basis. Standardization fails to recognize that a differential in the wage scale, at least, should bear some relation to the ability of the road to pay (in reality the public), and to the varying wage scales prevailing in different parts of the territory covered by our lines. A wage scale is more or less dependent upon local conditions and service rendered, taking into consideration the ability of the public and the various divisions and branches to pay. Standardization is also inconsistent with the demands contained in the last paragraph of the proposed schedule presented by the engi- neers and attached to, and made part of, the Arbitration agreement, which, in substance, provides that existing rates of pay or better work- ing conditions shall not be reduced by the proposed rates or rules, nor shall the General Committee of Adjustment be debarred from taking up with their respective managers matters not decided at this confer- ence. If the latter clause be approved by Continued on Page 16. 180 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 15 Statement Showing foe the Year 1911, Operating Revenues, Operating Expenses, and Operating Ratio of Selected Branch Roads Operated as a Portion of the Pennsyl- vania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Operating Revenues Bedford & Hollidaysburg R. R. Co $ 30,894.84 Belvidere Delaware R. R. Co 1,876,371.04 Cambria & Clearfield Railway Co 2,782,404.94 Delaware, Maryland & Viginia R. R. Co. . . 346,128.30 Elmira & Lake Ontario Railroad Co 1,253,912.16 Freehold & Jamesburg Agricultural R. R. . . 307,677.88 Johnsonburg Railroad Company 21,876.73 Kinkora & New Lisbon Railroad Co 29,295.72 Lancaster & Quarryville Railroad Co 46,817.55 Lewisburg & Tyrone Railroad Co 180,045.95 Maryland, Delaware & Virginia Ry. Co 885,388.05 Penna., Monongahela & Southern R. R. Co. . 38,184.64 Philadelphia & Baltimore Central R. R. Co. . 1,329,745.49 Philadelphia & Beach Haven R. R. Co 22,608.65 Pine Run Railroad Co 3,246.37 Pomeroy & Newark Railroad Co 25,765.22 Ridgway & Clearfield Railway Co 23,223.19* Western New York & Penna. R. R. Co 7,869,966.86 Operating Expense Operating Ratio 28,266.54 91 1,691,186.42 90 2,505,727.52 90 354,609.66 102 1,229,915.95 98 263,841.86 86 30,196.41 138 38,427.38 131 40,588.30 84 199,741.76 111 764,628.99 86 34,274.84 90 1,208,107.94 91 52,500.55 232 2,998.21 92 38,645.56 150 21,911.43* 94 (",244,989.65 92 Note: — *Three months ending March 31, 1911. 181 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 16 the Arbitration Board in the present controversy, it will enable the employees to immediately open with their respective managers mat- ters of sufficient moment to become at once the basis of negotiations, possibly resulting in a repetition of strike vote. This exception to the standardization of rates very strongly ex- emplifies the injustice of their demands and applies particularly to roads like the Pennsylvania System Lines East, where, for more than half a century, new rates and adjustments in old rates have very largely been established, based upon the character of the service, local conditions, ability of the employe to earn a fair wage consistent with reasonable hours of service, whether on single trip, round trip or com- bination of short trips and as well the length and convenience of the lay-over, and this very largely without reference to miles run. This method of fixing rates, which we claim is the correct one, naturally re- sults in numerous high spots, as it were, as compared with a strict mile- age basis; on the other hand, the application of a standard mileage rate to many of our runs would also bring about large increases on such runs so that the application of the standard mileage rate to our system with the proviso that any higher existing rates should not be reduced would in effect put all our rates in the highest class, very many of which would be above our competitors in the same territory : hence the exception is not only a violation of the petition or demands, but is also void of all elements of equity. For these reasons, this excep- tion should be eliminated, and in case it is found to be the proper thing to establish a basic mileage rate, same should be applied regard- less of whether or not the pay of certain runs would be decreased therebv. 182 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 17 Should the Rates ok Pay and Rules of Service Proposed by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers be Adopted ? Am- consideration of the advisability of adopting the proposed rates of pay and rules of service very naturally divides itself into two parts: under the one the equity, justification and effect of adopting each individual rule anr 1 rate of pay and under the other the equity, justification and effect of adopting the rates of pay and rules as a whole, both of which demand the most careful consideration. Immediately following is a copy of the engineers' demands, to- gether with our comments on the separate articles. 183 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Engineers' Demands. Passenger Rates Engines with cylinders of 20 inches or less in diameter $4.40 per 100 miles or less. Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter $4.60 per 100 miles or less. Miles made in excess of 100 pro rata. Overtime in through passenger service to be computed on a ba- sis of 20 miles per hour. Overtime will be paid for at 70 cents per hour. Freight Rates Engines with cylinders of 20 inches in diameter or less, $5.25. Engines with cylinders over 20 inches in diameter. Page 18 Pennsylvania Li.ves East Comments While our rate is based on $4.15 per 100 miles, we find a great many of our runs are less than 100 miles, for which, gen- erally speaking, a $5 rate obtains, which is .60 and .40 cents respectively above the rates asked; however, the adoption of the rates demanded would mean a very large increase on our long road runs, the latter being the very runs now giving the larg- est average earning per man per actual hours on duty. The assigned passenger service, which constitutes 95% of the busi- ness, gives engineers the following earn- ings: — minimum $110.15, maximum $250.- 25, average $167.29 per month as shown by statement on page 19. The engineers' demands propose the adop- tion of cylinder diameters as a basis for the determination of the proposed basic rate per mile in both freight and passen- ger service, while as a matter of fact, the cylinder diameter is but one of four co- ordinate factors in the determination of locomotive draw-bar pull and capacity; the others being boiler pressure, length of cyl- inder and diameter of drivers. The diam- eter of cylinders selected by the engineers as basis of differential between the various basic rates per mile is very largely a mat- ter of design dependent upon the desired ratios between the other factors and the service for which the locomotive is de- signed. Locomotives of smaller cylinders can be and are very frequently designed for the same work as locomotives with larger cylinders and vice versa. This is our present practice, and which is quite liberal since it practically gives the engineers on all through runs an ex- tremely short day (from 4 to 6 hours) after which they are on overtime pay. This is an increase from $.415 to $.70 per hour, notwithstanding the short time on duty, same is not justified and would re- sult in placing a premium for delays on road, besides which it is 33% higher than the freight overtime, for which there is no justification. Our rate is based on $4.85 per 100 miles for all classes of engines, but like the pas- senger service, we actually pay for more miles than the minimum of 100, in that practically all of our runs of less the 100 miles are based on 110 miles or 11 hours. Besides it should be remembered that our rate covered the Continued on page 20. 184 Railroad Exhibit No. 12C-A. Page 19 Statement Showing Normal Monthly Earnings Accruing on Buns of Regularly Assigned Locomotive Engineers under Present Rates oe Pay and Working Conditions — Pennsyl- vania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Based upon conditions and performance of month of May. Eastern Western New Phila. Lines Division Penna. Penna. Jersey Northern P. B. & W. N. C. R. Term East u. [Number of Runs: 219 143 247 50 144 46 1 850 § L (Minimum $132.70 133.40 130.00 142.02 110.15 126.76 130.00 110.15 I Jf 1 "™- Maximum 230.00 243.85 227.00 203.60 250.25 234.88 130.00 250.25 I lngs [Average 162.55 152.04 158.00 174.62 169.09 172.14 130.00 167.29' e* [ 'Percentage 83 84 95 100 96 51 100 95 _ (Number of Runs: 285 252 129 30 86 26 ... 808 53 L (Minimum 95.750 133.69 103.15 145.26 152.25 139.50 95.75 g -i ft?' Maximum 203.70 208.55 223.00 211.82 189.65 185.38 ....... 223 .00 !§£ ings [Average 147.50 168.86 136.00 184.03 179.04 159.61 157.49 H ('Percentage 69.2 89 90 30 86.9 20.2 69.4 Number of Runs: 90 61 69 28 41 41 330 u,™ (Minimum 135.00 139.25 124.00 152.32 138.20 139.88 124.00 ?„ (Maximum 165.55 202.85 177.00 188.90 188.70 175.67 202.85 lngs (Average 150.74 154.06 150.00 167.31 159.94 149.03 152.93 •Percentage 91.9 97 90 100 80.4 100 92.2 (Number of Runs: 192 182 242 66 54 152 142 1030 P.™ (Minimum 110.60 111.90 107.00 123.10 118.50 116.24 106.35 106.35 l£™ N Maximum 161.80 186.82 176.00 179.48 160.50 158.82 154.55 186.82 nE3 [Average 136.92 143.03 150.00 147.13 140.45 145.12 144.06 145.63 [•Percentage 77.1 90 95 100 83.1 100 97.1 91.3 Number of Runs: 44 168 42 254 F .„ (Minimum 95.750 138.60 147.55 95.75 -« >V,™ "^Maximum 182.90 210.80 227.72 227.72 g w ings ( Average 134.17 174.00 180.37 168.16 •Percentage 83 82 100 84.7 Note: — * Percentage assigned service bears to total. Earnings for 18 days. Philadelphia, Pa., July 2, 1912. is; Railroad Exhibit No. li'H-A. Engineers' Demands. Freight Rates (Cont'd) and less than 24 inches in diameter, $5.50. Engines with cylinders 24 inches in diameter and over, ex- cept mallets, $5.75. Mallet type of engines, $7.00. One hundred (100) miles or less, ten hours or less to consti- tute a day's work. All over one hundred (100) miles to be paid pro rata. Overtime to be com- puted on a basis of ten (10) miles per hour, and paid for pro rata. Through freight rates to apply to all mine runs, work, wreck, pusher, or helper, milk, roustabout, and circus trains, ac- cording to class of engines. Overtime to be computed on min- ute basis. Engineers will be paid at over- time rates for all time over 15 hours held at other than their home terminal. Page 20 Pennsylvania Lines East Comments large engines, the rate for smaller engines- having been abolished as a concession, thus advancing the small engines to the high, rate. Attention is called to remarks made un- der passenger rates in connection with the use of cylinder diameter as a basis for the determination of a basic rate per mile earnings; also applies to freight locomo- tives in service. We have but one engine of this type in service, which is now being tried out and no rate has as yet been fixed. Tests thus far taken indicate that a rate of $7 per 100 miles, would be exorbitant. This or better is our present practice, ex- cept that where milk trains are run on passenger schedule they are paid under passenger rates and conditions. The Sixteen Hour Law required road crews on long runs to be given 8 or 10 hours rest (the latter in case of 16 con- secutive hours previous duty) during which time the men are not subject to call. In this connection the following is quoted from our present rules and regula- tions: "By 10 hours rest, it should be un- derstood that this means actual time of rest, due allowance being made for the time consumed in getting to and from the rest- ing place" from which it is to be clearly understood that but five hours, minus the time required by the crews to get to and from their resting place, would be allowed to remain within which to provide crews with a returning train. In many instances, trains are bunched, so that the rest period of a numrer of crews expire at or at about the same time, making it impracticable to avoid some detentions beyond the 186 Railroad Exhibit No. 12C-A. Page 21 Engineers' Demands. Twenty-five (25) cents per 100 miles or less additional to be added to through freight rates for local freight and pick-up ser- vice, according to class of en- gines. Pennsylvania Lines East Co-aejients time required. The public guarantees no traffic, and fluctuations in business is be- yond the Company's control, hence the de- mand is unreasonable and particularly so, when you consider, that while at away from home terminal they are provided with free rest houses and wash rooms. Besides the above a strict application of this rule, would, to some extent lessen the moral stamina of the men, since it would make necessary the running of all available trains during Sundays and holidays. Prior to prohibition of the practice by regulations, crews that would otherwise lay at the foreign terminal for a longer time than required for rest, or caught away from home at the beginning of a "shut down" were placed at the head of the list and run around other crews laying at the terminal (which was to them the "home terminal") in order that thev might be run to their own home terminal promptly. For exam- ple, we had crews running between Pit- cairn and Altoona, a portion of whom lived at Pitcairn (Pitcairn being their "home terminal") and the balance lived at Al- toona, the former constituting the "Pit- cairn side" of the pool, the latter the "Al- toona side." Fitcairn crews which would otherwise lay at Altoona for long nericds (particularly during the usual Sunday shutdown) were run around Altoona crews at that point, likewise Altoona crews caught at Pitcairn were run around Pit- cairn crews at Pitcairn in order that the layover at the foreign terminal could be reduced to a minimum. At the present time on account of regu- lation restrictions, we can only relieve crews away from home and grant privileges of deadheading home upon passenger trains and require them to return to the foreign terminal from which they must begin their next trip 'on Monday morning in cise of the first trip following the usual Sunday shutdown). Are now naid on the same basis as through freight men, excent that for the same rate thev make much less mileage. The rates mostlv cover 12 hours time limit runs based on 120 miles. Generally sneak- ing, local freight service is a preferred ser- vice on account of the regularity of hours, short trains, low mi'eage and davlight work, as compared with through freight pool service. For these reasons, as well as the fact that their monthly earnings equal those of pool crews, we do not believe that any differential is justified. 187 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Engineeks' Demands. Switching Service Rates for engines in switching service $-1.50 per day. Ten (10) hours or less to constitute a day's work. All over ten (10) hours to be paid for pro rata. Over- time to be computed on minute basis. Belt Line Service Engineers in belt line service will be paid $5.00 per day, ten (10) hours or less to constitute a day. All over ten (10) hours 50 cents per hour. Overtime to he computed on minute basis. Engineers of single-crewed yard and belt line engines will report for duty at the appointed time and will receive one-half hour's pay in addition to the reg- ular day's pay for reporting thirty minutes in advance of the commencement of the day's work. In case of double-crewed engines, if engineers do not re- lieve each other at the appointed time and the engineers of the next crew is required to prepare his engine 30 minutes pay will be allowed for same. Beginning and Ending of a Day In all classes of road service an engineer's time will com- mence thirty minutes before leaving roundhouse or desig- nated track and will conclude at the time the engine is placed on the designated track or relieved by a hostler at terminal. Page 22 Pennsylvania Lines East Comments We now pay 43.5 and 41.0 cents per hour, with a ten hour guaranteed minimum per day, and with the general introduction of_ the Hump Yards, in lieu of poling process * of shifting the work of the engineer has been very much reduced, making the pres- ent rates ample for the character of ser- vice rendered. No Belt Line Service on Pensnylvania Lines East. This is our present practice, except we do not recognize Belt Line Service and in the second clause they have inserted "At the appointed time." This addition should not interfere with the main issue; i. e., the engineer should not be allowed the ex- tra 30 minutes unless he actually is required to prepare the engine in advance of the beginning of his day. Our regulation reads: — "Time of engi- neers will begin when they are required to report for duty and continue until relieved from responsibility of engine at end of last run." In justice to all parties no regu- lation should fix a time for reporting before leaving roundhouse or designated track, to this extent their demands should be clar- ified and the thirty minutes cut out leaving the time to begin, when required to report, since this is the time their service becomes of value to the Company. 188 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 23 Engineers' Demands. Initial Terminal Delay When delayed within the ter- minal as much as one hour be- yond the time set to leave en- gineers will be paid one hour's overtime at overtime rates ac- cording to class of engine. One hour and thirty minutes to con- stitute two hours, etc. If road overtime is made on same trip initial overtime will be deducted. Final Terminal Delay final terminal delay will be paid for at the end of the trip when delayed more than thirty minutes between yard limit boards governing yard to which train is to be delivered and the point of final relief, and to be paid for at the overtime rate ac- cording to class of engine on the minute basis. Pennsylvania Lines East Comments Not now recognized or allowed on our lines. Our method of paying engineers is based on two things, viz.: Mileage and lime, and if we exceed mileage or time, ad- ditional payments are made. A regulation that calls lor pay when both the mileage and time upon which the run is based have not been exceeded, is not just and in effect is paying double for the same time. If pay for initial terminal delay is granted, how could we defend the non-payment for delays on road in the middle of the run, in cases where neither the time or mileage have been exceeded. The inequity of the demand probably can best be shown by citing the case of preference freight trains, which cannot be held at terminal any longer than absolutely necessary. Crews must be on hand to meet the probable ar- riving time of the train. This probable arriving time, due to working conditions, may be interfered with and the train ar- rive later than expected at the time the crew was called, thus causing the crew to wait for their train. These crews on pref- erence runs, after they start, make their run in from 4 to C hours, so that the ac- tual time crew is on duty including pre- paratory and waiting time is generally less than 10 hours and sometimes as low as 5 i,n d G hours. The average time on duty in October, 1911. was 8 hours. 53 minutes, not- withstanding their rate of pay was based on 11 or 12 hours, mostly the latter. See statement on Page 10. The insertion of this exception at least implies the acknowledgment of the injus- tice of the "Initial Terminal Delav" clause, but its application would nevertheless re- quire pay fullv covered in trip rate, on runs not running into overtime. Not allowed on "ernia. Lines East unless the trip runs into overtime. This regulation would result in every trin where final terminal delay was over 30 minutes, in paying double for the time consumed inside of yard limit boards, in t^at to-dav the time limit of the run and miles take into account the time consumed from the hour his time starts at initial terminal to the time he is relieved of the engine at the final terminal. At Harris- burg the yard limit board is some 5 miles east of the westbound receiving yard, the whole 5 miles running through a congested district, 189 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Engineers' Demands. Hours of Service Law Amendment of Section E of the Application of the Sixteen Hour Law. Engineers in train service tied up under the law will be paid continuous time from initial point to tie-up point. When they resume duty on continuous trip they will be paid from the tie-up point to the next tie-up point, or to the terminal on the basis of a minimum day. It is understood that this does not permit running engines through terminals or around other crews at terminals unless such prac- tice is permitted under the pay schedule. It it understood that existing rates of pay or better working conditions shall not be reduced by the rates or rules, hereby agreed upon, nor shall General Committees of Adjustment be debarred from taking up with their respective Managers mat- ters not decided at this confer- ence. Page 24 Pennsylvania Lines East Comments frequently necessitating delays, but which, so far as pay is concerned, is already in- cluded in the trip rate up to the time limit of the run. This article is in the same category as the clause covering "Initial Delay," both of which call for double pay. The first clause is our present practice. The second clause asks for a minimum day from tie-up point to terminal instead of miles or hours, whichever is the greater, as under present practice. Naturally most tie-ups occurs pretty near the final terminal, hence a minimum day would give the engi- neers more money. There is no equity in the request, in fact, the present practice is quite liberal, and is the general practice covered by agreement with western roads. The inequity of this exception to the de- mands for standardization is self evident, and as the province of an Arbitration Board is to equitably adjust difference in a dis- pute, it naturally follows that the applica- tion of this paragraph particularly the first part should be eliminated, otherwise there can be no justification for raising lower paid runs. For further comments on this article see page 14, beginning at line forty. 190 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 25 Statements and charts shown on pages 26 and 27 exhibit for the principal passenger and freight runs upon each Superintendent's Di- vision, the length and rate per mile based upon trip rates paid prior to and following June 1, 1910, compared with the present basic rates per mile 4.15 and 4.85 cents, respectively, for passenger and freight service and the proposed rates of 4.40 and 4.60 cents for passenger and the proposed rates of 5.25, 5.50 and 5.75 cents for freight. .From these statements and charts, it will be clearly seen that the elevations in rates made in 1910 on account of the introduction of the mileage basis alone were nominal, this being more clearly shown in case of the passenger rates in the computation of which constructive mileage based on the previously determined arbitrary number of hours did not enter. Statement shown on page 28 shows for those runs upon our Mary- land Division the present trip rates of which exceed those based upon actual mileage and the basic rate per mile 4.15 and 4.85 cents per mile in the passenger and freight services, respectively. The column headed ''Difference" upon this statement exhibits the difference in our present trip rates and those computed upon flat basis of actual mileage and basic rates. The differences referred to upon this statement and the rates per mile now effective and in excess of our present basic rates per mile as shown by statements on pages 26 and 27 already re- ferred to represent inequalities which would exist at present time in fa- vor of the Company were the mileage basis of rate determination strictly adhered to. While the comparatively few instances of increases which have been occasioned hj adherence to the strict mileage basis represent, as we think, present inequalities in favor of our employes. The latter will increase in magnitude and number with any increases in the flat mileage rate as now demanded by the engineers and the now relatively high rates listed upon the statement, many of which would not be af- fected by any reasonable increases in the flat mileage rate, would soon represent inequalities in favor of the Company and become the basis of equitable arguments for readjustment. It would appear that the adoption of the mileage basis, as on our lines in 1910, where its application was largely nominal, is but an apparent insignificant step in the following cycle, viz : (1) Adoption of the mileage basis under conditions which ren- ders the effect of such adoption upon the Company's expenses and the employes wages nominal, there being few trip rates actually changed thereby. The wedge, however, has been en- tered which will elevate a succeedingly greater number of longer run rates under the second step. (2) Succeeding increases in the flat rate will increase the num- ber and magnitude of inequalities in favor of the employe under the adjusted rates, and render the rates yet unchanged by the adoption of the mileage basis relatively low. (3) Break from the mileage basis by reason of the justified re- vision of rates cited under the second step as being low, with return to basis of rate determination used by us heretofore and which Ave contend is right, following which we would expect to be asked to re-adopt the mileage basis and repeat the cycle. 191 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 26 Statement and Chart Showing foe the Principal Passenger Runs upon each Superintendent's Division, the Length, the Rate Per Mile, Based upon Trip Rates Paid Prior to and Following June 1, 1910, Compared with the Present Basic Rate Per Mile — 4.15^, and the Proposed Rate of 4.40^ and 4.60^ — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Run Miles Philadelphia & Harrisburg 104 Philadelphia & Paoli 120 Harrisburg & Jersey City 188 Harrisburg & Altoona 132 Philadelphia & Pottsville 190 Philadelphia & Norristown 108 Tyrone & Lock Haven 122 Tyrone & Grampian 108 Altoona & Pittsburgh 114 Pitcairn & Pittsburgh 96 Blairsville & Pittsburgh 137 Butler & Pittsburgh 99 Monogahela City & Pittsburg. . . . 153 Jersey City & Washington 222 Jersey City & Waverly 109 Harrisburg & WiUiamsport 93 Lewistown Jet. & Sunbury 100 Baltimore & Harrisburg 84 Washington & Philadelphia 135 Baltimore & Philadelphia 95 Philadelphia & Delmar 123 Philadelphia & Harrington 90 West Chester & Philadelphia 83 Philadelphia & Perry ville 144 Buffalo & Oil City 138 Pittsburgh & Oil City 134 Camden & Atlantic City 117 Camden & Cape May 166 Philada. & Atlantic City 139 Camden & H amnio a to a 120 Prior to June 1, 1910 Since June 1, 1910 4.81c 4.81c 4.17 4.17 4.51 4.51 3.90 4.15 3.94 4.15 4.63 4.63 4.10 4.15 4.63 4.63 4.50 4.50 5.34 5.34 4.02 ' 4.15 5.18 5.18 3.60 4.15 4.17 4.17 4.58 4.58 3.86 4.15 4.88 4.88 4.93 4.93 4.08 4.15 5.26 5.26 4.48 4.48 5.55 5.55 6.02 6.02 4.45 4.45 4.20 4.20 3.92 4.15 4.27 4.27 4.15 4.15 4.27 4.27 4.17 4.17 Rate Per Mile. Cents. *-* eo f 1 1 1 in 1 1 1 itfr | — r Jl * T I 111, L it l I Present Basic Per Mile Rate - Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate - for Smaller Engines Proposed Basic Per Mile Rate - for Larger Engines 4.G0j£. Philadelphia, Pa., July 21, 1912. Note: — -Solid line shows rates prior to 1910. Broken line shows the 1910 adjustments. 192 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 27 Statement and Chart Showing the Principal Freight Buns upon each Superintendent's Division, the Length, the Rate Per Mile, Based upon Trips, Rates Paid Prior to and Following June 1, 1910, Compared with the Present Basic Rate Per Mile* 4.85^, and the Proposed Rates of 5.25 Note: — Solid line shows rates prior to 1910. Broken line shows the 1910 adjustments. 193 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 28 Statement Showing Certain- Information in Connection with Runs upon the Maryland Division for which Present Trip Rates Exceed those Based upon Actual Mileage and the Basic Rate Per Mile 4.15 Cents and 4.85 Cents in Passenger and Freight Services, Respectively Penn- sylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Passenger: Washington and Jersey City Philadelphia and Baltimore Baltimore and Washington Bowie and Popes Creek Delaware City and Newark Columbia & Perryville and return Perryville & Pt. Deposit & return. Phila., Wilm'n, Lamokin & Newark. Freight - Through: Philadelphia and Baltimore. Edgemoor and Potomac Yard Edgemoor & Harrisburg (via P'Ville) . (via Del. Div) Edgemoor and Baltimore " 50th St. & return . " Phila. " " " " Thurlow" " " Perryville & " Edgemoor and Jersey City " " Trenton and return.. . . Bay View & Potomac Yard & return. . Baltimore " " " " . . Bay View and Harrisburg Freight - Local: Washington and Bay View . . Bay View and Perryville . . . Edgemoor and Perryville . . . Baltimore and Washington . Baltimore and Odenton .... Bowie and Popes Creek .... Columbia and Perryville Philadelphia and Edgemoor. Grays Ferry and Perryville . Edgemoor and Newark Grays Ferry and Moore .... NOTE:- -* Based on actual miles run. 4> Between present trip rates and those based on Actual Mileage. Philadelphia, Pa. July 21, 1912. Tr p Rates Hours Allowed Actual Prior to Prior to Miles Run Overtime June 1, 1910 Present Mileas $9.21 re Difference 222 S9.26 S9.27 $ .06 95 5.00 5.00 3.94 1.06 41 2,11 2.11 1.70 .41 97 4.58 5.00 4.03 .97 86 4.59 5.00 3.57 1.43 104 5.00 5.00 5.00 5.qp 4.32 .68 57 2.37 2.63 77 5.00 5.00 3.20 1.80 82 5.00 5.00 3.40 1.60 107 5.00 5.00 4.44 .56 53 5.00 5.00 2.20 2.80 29 111m. 5.00 5.26 5.00 5.33 1.20 3.80 92 4.46 .87 117 12 6.11 6.11 5.67 .44 107 HH 5.65 5.65 5.19 .461 .46/ 116.5 12 6.11 6.11 5.65 68 8 4.14 4.14 3.30 .84 48 8 3.92 3.92 2.33 1.591 48 s 3.74 3.88 2.33 1.551 18 5 2.08 2.42 .87 1.55 68.8 8 12 4.16 5.65 4.16 5.82 3.34 .82 112 5.43 .39 112 12 11 5.64 5.69 5.82 5.69 5.43 .39 102 4.95 .74 93 11 11^ 5.69 5.65 5.69 5.65 4.51 1.18 108 5.24 .41 87 11 5.26 5.33 4.22 1.11 05 11 5.26 5.33 3.15 2.18 70 11 5.26 5.33 3.39 1.94 80 11 5.26 5.33 3.88 1.45 36 11 5.26 5.33 1.75 3.58 97 11 5.26 5.33 4.70 .63 87 11 5.26 5.33 4.22 1.11 48 11 5.26 5.33 2.33 3.00 56 11 5.26 5.33 2.72 2.61 30 11 5.26 5.33 1.45 3.88 26 11 5.26 5.33 1.26 4.07 194 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 29 The following covering the demands made by the engineers so far as electric service is concerned: "Wherever electric service is installed or now in opera- tion locomotive engineers will take the position on electric locomotives or multiple-unit trains under the prevailing sched- ules governing rates of pay and conditions in steam service. Any change from steam to electricity or other motive power in any form at any point on the system such power will be manned by engineers and paid according to the service for the territory affected, or where electric or multiple unit trains enter upon steam tracks or tracks formerly operated by steam or where trackage rights are leased to holding companies they shall be operated by engineers operating steam trains on said tracks." logically divides into three separate subdivisional questions, viz. Subdivisions Page Line Bab-a : Shall electric service be governed by the schedule covering rates of pay and rales of service in steam service 1 30 1 Bab-b: Shall engineers have the exclusive right to operate the motive power when it is changed from steam to electricity, or other motive power ? 40 1 Bab-c: When electric or multiple unit trains enter upon steam tracks, or tracks for- merly operated by steam, or where track- age rights are leased to holding com- panies, shall such electric service be operated by locomotive engineers? 40 12 which require separate consideration. 195 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 30 Argument Submitted by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company upon the Question, "Shall Electric Service be Gov- erned by the Schedule Covering Rates of Pay and rules of service in steam service." The Pennsylvania Railroad Company uses electric locomotives between Sunnyside Yard and JVIanhattan Transfer, a distance of thir- teen miles, and has both a trip rate and a switching rate of pay in this territory. The former is $5.00 for 120 miles, with overtime, after ten hours, at 41.5 cents per hour, or excess mileage at 4.15 cents per mile, whichever is the greater. The latter is the regular steam switching rate in the territory. In addition there are two crews run- ning multiple-unit cars in what might be called short shuttle service, who receive the switching rate. The Pennsylvania Railroad Company also operates two parallel lines between Camden and Atlantic City, one sixty-four miles long operated with multiple-unit cars, and one fifty-eight miles long oper- ated with steam locomotives. The rate for the multiple-unit service in this territory is Five dollars for ISO miles, with overtime after ten hours at fifty cents per hour, or excess mileage at 2.8 cents per mile, whichever is the greater. The Railroad Company calls attention to the fact that the rates between Sunnyside Yard and ]\(anliattan Transfer were granted only in view of the large number of short trips which necessitates long hours on duty — even though the actual working time is not long — and long hours away from home, and, also, in view of the fact that the men agreed to remain constantly on duty for ten hours and to do any switching required of them between trips. If the service were such that 140 miles could be made in a reasonable number of trips, any three or four, and switching were not required between trips, it would not be excessive to require 196 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 31 that 140 miles be made for the rate as compared with similar steam passenger service at present. The Eailroad Company contends that the rates mentioned in the foregoing are fair and equitable for the service in question, for the following reasons: First: It is not essential that the men in this electric service re- ceive the long training usual in connection with the educa- tion of a steam locomotive enginman, because the knowledge required to operate the electric apparatus is less than that required to operate steam apparatus performing the same service. Second: The duties of motormen in connection with the operation of multiple-unit trains or electric locomotives, are less than those of an engineman on a steam locomotive, and allow the former to give a greater portion of his time to transportation matters ; therefore, he should perform them better, and the number of failures of enginemen to observe signals and trans- portation rules should be less, which, in turn, would have a tendency to decrease the transportation risks of every em- ploye. Third: The responsibilities of the motorman on an electric locomo- tive or multiple-unit train, are less, on account of he de- creased amount of apparatus, the operation of which he must supervise, and, further, on account of the fact that the elec- tric apparatus in question does not require the close per- sonal attention of steam apparatus used to perform the same service. Fourth : The element of risk, or danger, is reduced. Fifth : The labor of preparation is less. The labor of preparation on electric locomotives is somewhat less than on a steam lo- comotive, and this labor is almost entirely eliminated on a mutiple-unit train. In a service consisting of two or more trips, the time between trips need be only five or ten min- utes with an electric locomotive or multiple-unit train, where- as with a steam locomotive this time is rarely less than an hour and a half, on account of the terminal work necessary on the steam locomotive to prepare it for the next trip. It is entirely fair that the time enginemen are around engine- houses waiting for their locomotives, be used for road ser- vice, and thus it is entirely practicable for them to make more miles and yet be away from home less hours. Sixth: On account of the elimination of the boiler and the heat and dirt incident thereto, a motorman on either an electric loco- motive or a multiple-unit train, is more comfortable and, therefore, the service is more desirable. 1!)7 Railroad Exhibit Xo. 1:20- A. Page 32 In support of contention number 1, we would call attention to the following- tabulation, which shows, as nearly as possible, the relative apparatus that has to be cared for by the enginenian, or motorman, in the three classes of service in question. Therefore, this furnishes a measure of responsibility and labor in connection with their duties. Steam Locomotive Engineman and Fireman Electric Locomotive Motorman and Helper Multiple-Unit Train Motorman Running-gear : Driving boxes; Shoes and wedges; Side and Main Rods Running-gear : Driving boxes; Shoes and wedges; Side and Main Rods Nothing Steam Cylinders and Valve Motion Motors, Switches and Fuses; Fuses and switches. Reverse Lever and Throttle Controller Controller Boiler and Appurten- ances; Boiler: Water Bottle Injectors; Safety Valves: Gauge Cocks. Nothing Nothing- Tender, Water-Scoop and Coal. Nothing Nothing Air Brakes Air Brakes Air Brakes Steam Heat Steam Heat Nothing 198 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 33 Further, in support of contention number 1, we would call atten- tion to the following facts: Fiest : There are many electric roads in this Country operating suc- cessfully under standard railway train rules, single cars or trains of two or more cars, with men who do not have the ability and have not served the apprenticeship of the steam locomotive engineer and could not run a steam locomotive without further training. Second: When the multiple-unit cars were put in service between Camden and Atantic City, men who had already qualified on train rules, signals and air brakes, learned to operate the electric equipment in three days, and at present a steam locomotive engineer learns this equipment in his own time, without pay therefor, when he elects to take a run in the electric service after having been employed on a steam loco- motive. Third: When the service between Sunnyside Yard and Manhattan Transfer was established, men understanding train rides and the operation of the air brake, learned the signals, the general arrangement of the business of the road and to op- erate electric locomotives, in one month ; and out of forty- two men applying for such positions, forty-one qualified on the first examination. Fourth : A large number of motormen on the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad, many of whom have never qualified as steam lo- comotive engineers, are members of the Brotherhood of Lo- comotive Engineers and, with the knowledge and consent of the order, run on the same tracks with regularly qualified steam locomotive engineers. In support of contention number 2, we would call attention to the fact that while the duties of a motorman and steam locomotive en- gineer may be considered equal insofar as transportation duties, sig- nals and operation of the air brake are concerned, this is not true in respect to the operation of the respective locomotives and cars. The steam locomotive engineer must make the power he uses, while the motorman uses power already made for him by others. The steam, locomotive engineer must properly feed the boiler with water, with due regard to the train he must 199 Railroad Exhibit Xo. 120- A. Page 34 handle and the grades over which it has to he handled; he must super- vise the work of the fireman, also, and is responsible, in a measure, for the actions of the fireman. I requires careful attention if the work is to be done economically and at a minimum cost for fuel, and the steam so made must be used in the steam engine, where proper attention must be paid to the position of reverse lever and throttle, in order that the locomotive may use a minimum of steam and, there- fore, of coal. The motorman on a multiple-unit train or an electric locomotive, distributes to the motors, by means of a controller, current already made for him by others. He cannot greatly affect the economy of the apparahis in his charge, as its action is, in a great measure, au- tomatic. Therefore, he may give the attention not required by the electric apparatus and by the elimination of the boiler, to his other duties. In support of contention number o, we would call attention to the elimination or responsibility for the operation of the boiler and the appurtenances incident thereto, and to the greatest of all responsiblities that a steam locomotive engineer has after the safety of his train, namely, the manufacture of the force that he uses. When it is con- sidered that as much as twelve million dollars worth of coal is pur- chased by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, per annum, saving of ten per cent, by the enginemen, would amount to one million dol- lars per annum. The responsibility for this is eliminated on both the electric locomotive and the multiple-unit train to a very large extent, because the motorman of the train cannot affect the cost of the current he uses, he can affect only the amount used, and as the apparatus by which he controls the locomotive or train is, in a measure, automatic, the extent to which he can affect the consumption of current is limited. 200 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 35 In support of contention number 4, we would call your attention to the fact that the transportation dangers may be called equal, except that the motorman on an electric locomotive has little to do except to observe signals and he is assisted by a helper who checks all signals ob- served and who is relieved of the heavy duties incident to firing a steam locomotive and, therefore, is in position to assist the engineer and minimize the danger incident to disregard of signals. The motorman on a multiple-unit train has all the advantages of a motorman on an electric locomotive, insofar as relief from duties in connection with the operation of a boiler, and, also the same advantage due to his position and his ability to see all signals clearly. As far as concerns dangers incident to the apparatus, the motor- man on an electric locomotive or multiple-unit train, is not exposed to any danger from steam boilers or appurtenances connected there- with, and we consider the dangers from electric shock not to be equal to those referred to in the foregoing. Our records show that out of ■<() engineers at present in steam locomotive service on the West Jer- sey & Seashore Railroad, in the last five and two-third years,, none have been killed and 17 injured by low water or failures incident to i^team operation, while out of 25 motormen in the electric service, none has been killed and two injured by electric shock. The following state- ment showing the number of engineers and motormen killed and in- jured upon the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad, during the period of electric operation, or from 1906 to date, exhibits the fact that from all causes there have been two injuries in the electric service, as against 42 in the steam, the number injured per thousand motor miles and per thousand locomotive miles in the two services respectively-, be- ins- .00027 and .00253. 201 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 36 Statement Showing the Number of Engineers and Motoemen Killed and Injured upon the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad, During the Period of Electric Operation. Electhic Operation — Motormen Avg. Number Number Injured Number Number Number killed per Number of days per Year Employed Killed 1,000 Motor Miles Injured Disabled 1,000 Motor Miles 1906 28 1 4 .0025 1907 26 1 6 .00076 190S 24 1909 27 1910 24 1 11 .00076 1911 24 1912* 21 Steam Operation- -Enginemen Avg. Number Number Injured Number Number Number killed per Number of Days per Year Employed Killed 1,000 Loco. Miles Injured Disabled 1,000 Loco. Miles 1906 76 4 071 . 00445 1907 7S 4 30 .00198 190S 81 3 27 .00104 1909 82 IX. .00034 6 53 .00204 1910 80 8 251 .00269 1911 8.5 12 136 .00402 1912* 79 561 1 3 42 179 1347 .00333 Total .000000006 .00253 * Four months. X Not due to steam operation. $ Not due to electric operation Philadelphia, Pa., June 30, 1912. •202 Railroad Exhibit No. 12(,-A. Page 31 or, approximately, ten times Ms mtw.y injuries in the steam service Ur, in electric. The following statement showing the number of ingincmeii and motormen employed in the West Jersey and Seashore Railroad, together with the total numher of discipline cases in the electric end steam service during the period of electric operation, these discipline cases heing divided between those matters incident to motive power (electric or steam) and transportation, clearly reflects the advantages of the electric service over steam by reason of the freedom from cir- cumstances, incidents, etc., occasioning discipline: Cases of Discipline. Account. Electhic or Steam Transportation Locomotive Matters. Matters. No. of Total No. per Total No. Per Service Engineers or No. Engineer or No. Engineer cr Motormen. Motorman. Motorman. Electric 25 4 .160 42 1.68 Steam 80 70 .875 266 3.32 In considering contention number 5 it should be understood that the multiple-unit train motorman takes his train at the station and has no other duties except testing the brakes in the same manner as on steam locomotives, and inspecting the electric connections between cars. The motorman on an electric locomotive, takes his engine at the yard and simply has to oil it and test and inspect the electric ap- paratus, in which he is assisted by the helper, who is in a position to give more time and assistance to the motorman than he possibly could give to the steam locomotive engineer, and to this extent the motor- man's position is just that much less arduous. 203 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 38 In support of contention number 6 ; we think this is such a self- evident proposition it is scarcely worth discussing. An inspection ot our electric locomotives at Xew York or, of our multiple-unit cars run- ning on the West Jersey & Seashore Railroad between Camden and Atlantic City, and comparison of them with the average steam loco- motive of the country, will establish the facts claimed beyond the possibility of a doubt. In support of our contentions, we affirm it has been recognized that the men running multiple-unit trains should make more mileage for the same pay than an engineer on a steam locomotive receives, and as a proof of this we would call attention to the fact that in February, 1909, the rates of pay and conditions of service on our electric line between Camden and Atlantic City bring in dispute, a Committee con- sisting of three Road Foremen of Engines, all of whom had been steam locomotive engineers, and three steam locomotive engineers, reported on this subject at the joint request of the General Manager of the Pennsylvania Railroad Company and the Chairman of the Board of Adjustment of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers for the Penn- sylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh, and recommended 180 miles as the proper mileage to be made for a day's pay in electric ser- vice as compared with 120 miles in' steam service on the same line. Further, we would call attention to the fact that the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad operates its service over our tracks from 204 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Pagk 0U. its station in Xew York City to Park Place, Xewark, X. J., and that our men on both steam locomotives and mnltiple-imit cars operate in the same service and over the same tracks. Our men receive the rates stated in the foregoing, whereas the Brotherhood of Locomotive En- gineers has, within the last ve-.ir, made an agreement with the Hud- .son & Manhattan Railroad that provides for a maximum rate of $3.S;> per day for 14-2 miles for moiormen, as against our rate of $5 for 120 miles on electric locomotives in the same territory, and as against our rate of $5. CO for ISO miles for motormen on multiple-unit trains be- tween Camden and Atlantic City. We believe this agreement plainly indicates the relative value placed on steam and electric service by locomotive engineers in general. It will be noted that the rate per mile between Camden and Atlantic City and those on the Hudson & Manhattan E. R. do not differ greatly, which means that there are two agreements, made at separate times practically the same for prac- tically similar service. To date there has been no agreement of which we have knowledge, for the position of a motorman on electric locomotives, which service, on most of the roads using these locomotives, has been in a more or less changing state, and no long runs of 60 or 70 miles, or more, have been established. Therefore, the rates . allowed have been tentative for a more or less temporary service, and ought not to be used as a precedent in the settlement of rates for what might be termed through service, as against short shuttle service. 205 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Pane 40. The Company maintains that the Engineers should not be granted the exclusive right to operate motive power when it is changed from steam to electricity or other motive power. It is generally recognized that better results are obtained by using its older employes, but if this request of the engineers be granted it means that the Railroad will not have the right to employ men other than engineers as motormen and must virtually guarantee engineers positions regardless of the change of motive power, although the engineers are not required and are not in po- sition to guarantee that they will remain in the service of the Com- pany. ^ We maintain that when the electric or multiple-unit trains enter upon steam tracks or tracks formerly operated by steam, or where trackage rights are leased to holding companies, that the Company is not in position to guarantee that such electric service be operated by locomotive engineers. The principle is wrong for the following rea- sons: (1) In so far as it applies to companies not parties to this sub- mission, operating over tracks of those who are parties un- der contracts made before the agreement to arbitrate was signed, it would require a breach of existing contracts. (2) It is unfair and impracticable to ask the railroads to make a contract of this character binding upon their respective successors in operation. (3) Agreements of this character relate to operation of railroad by the railroad company, the immediate party to the agree- ment, and should only be binding upon it while it operates. (4) When a new operating company appears the engineer should be required to enter into new negotiation with it, as it is the case in other industries under similar circumstances. 206 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 41. The Engineers' demands, that the proposed rates of pay rules of service be generally adopted, involve an annual increase in engi- neers' compensation estimated upon basis of expenses for the year 1911) to amount to $911,580, annually. The equity of granting these increases shotild be carefully considered from two standpoints, viz : (1) That of the employes interested, in the light of questions, "Is the increase due these employes ?" Are they rendering a service for which they are at this time underpaid ?", and (2) From the standpoint of the Company, in the light of question, "Is the Company in position financially justifying the granting of in- creases involved ?" As regards the former the Company maintains that existing wages are fair and liberal for the reason that the engineers are the highest paid of any class of employes m the Railroad service. This is con- clusively shown by statement anc^ chart exhibited upon page 42, show- ing the wages paid in various classes of railroad service upon our lines. The engineers have received increases in accord with the average received by all employes, as shown by statement and chart exhibited upon page 43, hsowing the total rolls, amount and per cent, of increase account of adjustment of wages, for all employes and engineers upon our lines since 1900. Continued on Page 44. 207 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 42 Statement and Chart Showing Wages Paid in Various Classes of Railroad Service on Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East op Pittsburgh and Erie — May and October, 1911-Combined. Total Wages Paid incl. Overtime Engineers - Freight $480,263.26 " - Passenger 332,180.10 " — Yard, work, wreck, helper, mine runs, etc 426,705.03 Firemen - Freight 297,324.62 er 187,529.88 " - Yard, work, wreck, helper, mine runs, etc 264,975.92 Hostlers 6,999.57 Hostler Helpers 7,786,95 Hostler at Shop and Engine Houses 119,313.72 Conductors - Freight 324,896.07 - Passenger 240,350.32 Conductors (Foremen) Yard, work, wreck, helper, mine runs, etc. . . 260,266.76 Brakemen and Flagmen - Freight 630,362.82 Brakemen, Baggagemen and Collectors - Passenger 291,392.64 Brakemen, Helpers and Flagmen, Yard, work, wreck, mine runs, etc 804,553.79 Agents and Operators, not including Tele- phone Exchange Operators 641,426.61 Other Station Employes (including Freight Handlers) 1,562,454.64 Clerks 464,018.57 Train Dispatchers 82,450.23 Train Masters and Assistants 57,849.70 Yard Masters and Assistants 135,562.72 Division Engineers 11,460.10 Headmasters or Supervisors 35,396.00 Section Foremen (Regular Gangs) 217,820.76 Trackmen (All) 1,312,325.96 Machine Shop Foremen 16,991.20 Machinists (not including Helpers) 542,708.67 Blacksmiths ( " " " ) 108,563.32 Boiler Makers " " " 101,309.09 Car Shop Foremen 21,438.75 Car Repairers 709,072.91 Car Inspectors 228,679.72 Roundhouse Foremen and Assistants 34,769.90 Traveling Engineers or Road Foremen of Engines '. . 28,148.74 Division Master Mechanics 15,735.05 Helegraph Linemen 42,867.45 Philadelphia, Pa. June 14, 1912. Total Hrs. Avg. Worked incl. Wages Overtime Per Hr. 859,881 373,163 937,054 859,494 359,138 918,953 39,611 37,040 450,054 708,494 289,531 705,721 2,017,469 600,260 .559 .890 .455 .346 .522 .288 .177 .210 .265 .459 .830 .369 .312 .485 2,363,452 .340 2,351,500 .273 7,165,460 .218 1,728,735 .268 155,511 .530 87,894 .658 319,819 .388 12,270 .934 61,930 .572 836,363 .260 8,034,934 .163 34,207 .497 1,464,439 .371 274,332 .396 279,344 .363 52,133 .411 2,320.451 .306 1,052,574 .217 103,318 .337 51,114 .551 19,195 .820 147,111 .291 ?■ r f- hz ?'- 4, ;» €Sn- ^ * 4 1* *-& ^> 208 Railroad Exhibit, No. 120-A. Page 43 Statement and Chart Showing Total Rolls, Amount and Per Cent. Increase Account Adjustments in Wages op all Em- ployes and Engineers — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East op Pittsburgh and Erie, Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive. All Employes Engineers Increase Increase Year Total Pay Total Pay Amount Per Total Pay Total Pay Amount Per Rolls Rolls Less Increases Cent Rolls Rolls Less Increase Cent 1900 $48,059,167 48,059,167 $3,416,672 3,416,672 1901 53,319,363 53,319,363 3,771,927 3,771,927 1902 62,243,394 59,779,394 $2,464,000 4.1 4,300,940 3,969,174 $331,766 8.4 1903 73,427,337 64,995,633 8,431,704 13.0 5,456,756 4,646,892 809,864 17.4 1904 70,410,546 62,324,542 8,086,004 13.0 5,754,612 4,900,205 854,407 17.4 1905 79,882,830 70,713,302 9,169,528 13.0 6,017,821 5,124,111 893,710 17.4 1906 86,204,423 75,581,198 10,623,225 14.1 6,103,455 5,153,411 950,044 18.4 1907 99,558,876 78,042,611 21,516,265 27.6 7,186,874 5,549,211 1,637,663 29.6 1908 81,325,910 63,616,559 17,709,351 27.9 5,787,983 4,469,664 1,318,319 29.6 1909 87,068,071 68,091,356 18,976,715 27.9 6,074,770 4,690,535 1,384,235 29.6 1910 102,811,702 76,546,841 26,264,861 34.3 7,274,023 5,387,662 1,886,361 35.1 1911 103,826,351 75,749,617 28,076,734 37.0 7,338,953 5,091,756 2,247,197 44.1 Total $948,137,970 796,819,583 151,318,387 19.0 68,484,786 56,171,220 12,313,566 21.9 1900 '01 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Years. July 21, 1912. 209 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 44 The wage differentials between engineers and conductors have been maintained in the schedules now effective which fact is conclu- sively shown by statement and chart exhibited upon page 45. An actual diminution of the differential shown to have been main- tained may actually have been justified by reason of the duties of which enginemen have been relieved, a number of which are as follows : 1st. The packing of throttle rod This relieves the enginemen of stuffing box, air pumps, injec- some physical labor formerly per- tors, and all valves inside of formed without special compensa- cab. tion. This work must be done while engine is at terminal. 2nd. Filling of side and main road This work would require from 10 to 30 grease cups on road locomo- minutes time in preparation for each tives. trip or day, but same is now done by enginehouse people. 3rd. Gradual introduction of Driv- This reduces one-half the amount ing Box grease lubricators. of machinery oil for oil lubricating driving boxes, and consequently less time to prepare engine for service. 210 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 45 Statement and Chart Showing Average Daily Compensation of Conductors and Engineers (Fiscal Year Ending June 30th), for Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. CONDUCTORS ENGINEERS Total No. Average Total No. Average Total Daily Days Worked Total Daily Year I. C. C. Year Compensation $2,400,134.10 Compensation S3. 25 I. C. C. Year Compensation $3,416,671.90 Comp'n 1900 738,459 892,737 $3.83 1901 809,008 2,643,610.79 3.27 986,900 3,771,927.48 3.82 1902 883,821 2,966,984.14 3.36 1,095,163 4,300,939.63 3.93 1903 979,533 3,614,077.84 3.69 1,265,333 5,456,756.13 4.31 1904 982,163 3,814,143.88 3.88 1,266,600 5,754,611.65 4.54 1905 975,623 3,785,208.72 3.88 1,254,486 5,679,436.42 4.53 1906 1,082,417 3,956 806.87 3.66 1,325,861 5,964,301.12 4.50 1907 1,153,254 4,490,242.97 3.89 1,408,252 6,691,274.66 4.75 1908 1,102,153 4,444,250.88 4.04 1,323,197 6,512,083.94 4.91 1909 952,640 3,786,131.41 3.97 1,189,168 5,759,057.33 4.84 1910 1,036,822 4,301,217.49 4.15 1,353,960 6,749,784.98 4.99 1911 1,040,169 4,595,512.43 4.42 1,358,883 7,408,802.31 5.45 $5.50 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 Years. Philadelphia, Pa., July 13, 1912. 211 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. 4th. Adjusting of Driving "Wedges, keying of brasses and cleaning of head lamps on pooled loco- motives. 5th. Placing of tools and equipment on locomotives other than nec- essary lubricants. 6th. Modern restarting injectors substituted for the old type lifting injectors which fre- quently were very hard to oper- ate and get to work, also relo- cating injectors which allow the engineman to operate them without moving off his seat box or taking his eyes from the track. 7th. Air sanding device which re- lieves the engineman of con- siderable work. 8th. Not being required to make an underneath inspection of loco- motives at terminals. 9th. Installation of the Walschaert valve gear requiring less work in lubricating and inspecting. Page 46 Much of this work would necessar- ily have to be done by an engineman while engine is at terminal. This work now usually being done by enginehouse people. He can also tell by placing hand on injector pipes whether same are working properly. Old type lifting in- jectors were located on the side of boiler at front of cab, making it nec- essary for the engineman to get up to operate it, whereas the restarting injectors are located on the boiler head within easy reach of the engine- man. The old type gravity sander re- quired the engineman to get off his seat box to operate it, and frequently was hard to operate, while the new type or air sanding device is within easy reach of the engineman and op- erated without any labor without get- ting off the seat box. This work now being done by En- gine Inspectors. .On engines equipped with Stephen- son valve gear, the parts are not easy of access by reason of their being un- der the boiler between frames, where- as all parts of the Walschaert gear are located outside within easy reach for inspection, repairs and lubrica- tion. 212 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 47 10th. Operation under Rule 302-A, Book of Rules relieves the en- gineman of worry, mental strain and responsibility. 11th. The increases in second, third and fourth track, and the ex- tension of automatic signal op- eration has relieved the engine- man of worry, mental strain, and responsibility. 12th. Installation of water scoops on freight locomotives, eliminat- ing frequent water station stops. 13th. Restricted use of Form 31- Train Order. 14th. Introduction of direct steam for heating passenger trains. 15th. Less work required in case of breakdown on the road. Which reads "Double, three or more tracks. On portions of the road so specified on the time tables trains will run with the current of traffic by block signals, whose indications will supersede time table superiority. A train having work to do between two passing stations must conform to rules 86 and 365-B between sub-sta- tions." Application of this rule avoids frequent stopping and starting of trains, going to office for orders, computing running time of trains be- tween stations or sidings, etc. Frequent stops and starts neces- sary in meeting and passing trains have been avoided, and enginemen haying constant knowledge of the con- dition of track ahead is relieved of anxiety and mental strain. This device permits the locomotive scooping water from track tanks when trains are in motion. Form 19 which is now used does not require the signature of engineman, relieving the engineman from walk- ing from signal or engine to the of- fice and signing for orders. The return Steam system which was formerly used, required a vacu- um pump on tender which necessi- tated considerable care and attention on the part of the engineman. With modern type locomotive breakdowns necessitating the discon- necting of heavy parts are now han- dled by wreck, work trains, or engine- house forces. 213 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 48 In connection with the above it should be noted that a consider- able number of significant improvements have been provided for the locomotive enginemen, as follows : 1st. Establishing a fixed time that men are required to report for duty before the leaving time at terminals, and abolishing the requirement of reporting for duty at unreasonable times at enginehouse prior to the ter- minal leaving time. Formerly it was the practice at certain points that enginemen for through trains were required to re- port at enginehouse as much as three hours in advance of terminal leaving time. 2nd. A more comfortable locomotive in every respect, including the use of magnesia lagging, steel jackets on boilers, window awn- ings, side and back curtains and doors. Ice for drinking water on frt. and shifting locomotives. 3rd. The establishment of wash rooms, shower baths, clean and comfortable rest rooms. 4th. Permitting the calling of en- ginemen by 'phone. 5th. Providing on all locomotives First Aid to the Injured Boxes and instructions relative there- to, including a well organized force of competent physicians. By the general use of magnesia lag- ging, steel jackets on boilers, window awnings, side and back curtains and doors, etc. Ice for drinking water on freight and shifting locomotives. Self-explanatory. Previous to this ruling enginemen were required to go to the engine- house for any information relative to their duties — as well as overcomes the old practice of calling men so far in advance of leaving time and extends the calling district without limit. Self-explanatory. 214 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 49 If the increased compensation, demanded by the engineers be granted, a similar advance in the compensation of other employes would involve an increase in our operation expenses of $11,878,688, which with the total of $911,580.00 estimated annual increase de- manded by the engineers, will amount to a total increase of $12,790,- 268.00 in our operating expenses. The Company is not in position financially to grant these in- creases, which fact is evidenced by statements exhibited upon j)ages 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57 and 58. Attention is called to statement and chart exhibited upon page 50, showing for the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh the proportion of each dollar of gross operating revenue which are paid out as operating expenses during the years 1900 to 1911 inclusive. The statement shows that of each dollar gross operating revenue, the amount expended as operating expenses has increased from 66.6 cents to 74 cents, notwithstanding the strenuous efforts which have been made to reduce operating expenses through judicious curtailment of main- tenance and the large operating economies which have been introduced. The statement and chart exhibited upon page 52, shows the com- position of each dollar total income and the relative proportion thereof expended as operating expenses, taxes, rentals, fixed charges, dividends and surplus during the years 1900 to 1911 inc. It will be noted that there has been a continual increase in the proportion of operating expenses and taxes. Rentals have been ma- terially reduced through absorption of affiliated and branch lines for- merly leased, thus terminating the rentals. In lieu thereof there have been increases in fixed charges and dividends by reason of the obliga- tions of the absorbed lines which have been assumed or guaranteed, and bonds and stocks of the parent company which have been issued in connection with the purchase of lines formerly leased. It is significant to note above that the total of rentals, fixed charges and dividends (shown upon statement referred to upon page #52), which items for the reasons stated are very much interlaced, have been decreased per dollar of total income. It should be understood that this total (rentals, fixed charges and dividends) covers the amount of money distributed direct or indirectly to the owners of the properties operated. Statement and chart shown upon page 51, shows rate of dividends declared upon outstanding stock of the several operating companies of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie since 1900, the operating companies being the Pennsylvania Railroad Company, the Northern Central Railway, Philadelphia, Baltimore & Washington Railroad, and West Jersev & Seashore Railroad. Continued on Page 53. 215 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 50 Statement and Chart Showing Division of Each Dollar op Gross Operating Revenue Between Operating Expenses and Net Operating Revenue, por Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East op Pittsburgh and Erie, for the Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive. Net Gross Operating Operating Year Expenses 66.6 Revenue Revenue 1900 33.4 $1.00 1901 65.5 34.5 1.00 1902 67.4 32.6 1.00 1903 70.2 29.8 1.00 1904 70.2 29.8 1.00 1905 70.4 29.6 1.00 1906 69.7 30.3 1.00 1907 73.0 27.0 1.00 1908 71.5 28.5 1.00 1909 70.2 29.8 1.00 1910 73.6 26.4 1.00 1911 74.0 26.0 1.00 Division of each Dollar of Gross Op- erating Rev- enue. O 3£ ^j,r _L ■j > - —— <>»=*fc=— — KT *^ <> — -~- AA_ SI. 00 ji 4<- .95 *— < .90 -fc .85 .80 .75 »i -TO .65 -»►.' .55 •ffl .50 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 Years 1908 1909 1910 1911 Philadelphia, Pa., -June 12, 1912. 216 10* Dividend . Kate 6 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 51 Statement and Chart Showing Rate of Dividend Declared upon Outstanding Stock of Operating Companies of the Penn- sylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh & Erie. Years 1900 to 1911, Inclusive. Year P. R. R. N. C. R. P.B.& W.R.R. W.J.& S.R.R. 1900 6% 7% 7% 5% 1901 6 8 7 5 1902 6 8 4 5 1903 6 8 4 5 1904 6 8 4 5 1905 6 8 4 5^ 1906 6H 8 4 6 1907 7 8 4 6 1908 6 8 4 4 1909 6 8 4 4M 1910 6 8 4 5 1911 6 8 4 5 <^- iO— <>— V < ) I < >■<■ ■v A, +< ) I (I I I =•<>—■♦- <*- X \ ■x »♦<> —^ J— zp*"' < >— N. C. R. $— P. R. R. W.J.&S.R.R A— P.B.&W.R.R. 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Years Philadelphia, Pa., June 24, 1912. 217 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page 52 Statement and Chart Showing in Cents the Composition of Each Dollar Total Income (Operating Revenue and Other Income), and Division Thereof Between Operating Expenses, Taxes, Rentals, Fixed Charges, Dividends, and Surplus — Operating Companies (P. R. R., N. C. R., P. B. & \Y. R. R., \V. J. & S. R. R.) of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie — Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive. Operating Other Total* Operating Fixed Year Revenue Income Income Expense Taxes Rentals Charges Dividends ^Total Surplus 1900 93.2 6.8 100 62.6 2.1 11.4 5.6 8.8 25.8 9.5 1901 92.2 7.8 100 61.0 2.3 11.3 4.8 9.5 25.6 11.1 1902 92.5 7.5 100 63.1 2.1 8.5 5.0 9.4 22.9 11.9 1903 92.2 7.8 100 65.3 2.1 7.5 5.5 10.1 23.1 9.5 1904 91.4 8.6 100 65.2 2.1 7.1 5.5 12.6 25.2 7.5 1905 92.2 7.8 100 65.6 2.1 6.9 5.5 11.5 23.9 8.4 1906 92.8 7.2 100 65.1 2.4 6.1 5.2 11.5 22.8 9.7 1907 92.8 7.2 100 68.6 2.3 4.7 6.7 11.4 22.8 6.3 1908 91.3 8.7 100 66.4 2.7 4.2 9.4 11.6 25.2 5.7 1909 91.3 8.7 100 65.0 2.8 4.4 8.4 10.6 23.4 8.8 1910 91.1 8.9 100 67.8 3.4 3.1 6.7 12.4 22.2 6.6 1911 91.1 8.9 100 68.2 3.7 2.8 6.2 13.1 22.1 6.0 * Operating Revenue plus Other Income. tj> Rentals + Fixed Charges + Dividends. $1.00 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Years. Philadelphia, Pa., June 22, 1912. 218 Railroad Exhibit No. 12G-A. Page 53 Particular attention is called to the fact that notwithstanding strenuous efforts made to reduce operating expenses and the reductions made in rentals, fixed charges and dividends, the surplus, that is, the amount remaining over and above operating expenses, taxes, rentals, fixed charges and dividends, has been continually decreasing. If this decrease continues at the same rate through the coming decade, our surplus will be wiped out. In this connection your attention is called to statement upon page 54, showing necessary or obligatory expenditures covering certain items which are not considered of sufficient value as revenue producers or savers of operating expenses to warrant their provision for an in- vestment standpoint, for the past two decades, together with an esti- mate for the decade ending 1920. The disastrous results which would follow the curtailment of these expenditures must be apparent. Statements and charts shown upon pages 55, 56 and 57 exhibit basic figures used in the computation of information shown upon the statement and chart exhibited upon page 52 just referred to. The effect of an abrupt increase in our operating expenses, which will result from our granting the demands of the engineers, is shown by statement exhibited tipon page 58. This statement shows the com- pensation and disposition of the total income of the Pennsylvania Rail- road Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie during the year 1911, amount- ing to $220,898,622. A surplus of $13,158,.'!7S.lb remains as a re- sult of operations during this year, which, if the engineers' demands amounting to $911,580 and a corresponding increase to other employes amounting to $11,878,688.35, or a total of $12,790,268.35 were al- lowed, would be reduced to a surplus of but $368,109.75 for the op- eration of the whole of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pitts- burgh during the year 1911. Continued on Page 59. 219 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 54 Statement Showing Necessary or Obligatory Expenditures Covering Certain Items Which Are Not Considered of Sufficient Value as Revenue Producers or Savers of Operating Expenses to Warrant Their Provision Prom an Investment Standpoint, for the Two Past Decades, Together With an Estimate for the Decade Ending 1920 — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh & Erie. 1890-1900 1900-1910 1910-1920 Grade Elimination: Both highway and railway crossings S 993,407 $18,387,082 $31,331,915 Bridge Renewals: Largely for heavier axle loading 2,819,718 5,499,628 10,842,609 Rail Renewals: Largely for safety and heavier loading 769,889 2,554,898 3,342,370 Terminal Facilities 1,999,988 13,103,738 26,376,782 New Station Building 2,956,560 12,273,595 16,622,804 Larger Turntables 140,000 250,000 600,000 Automatic Signals 772,797 1,412,313 5,228,027 Interlocking Plants , 874,424 3,953,111 4,771,973 Steel Freight Cars 34,865,283 55,812,079 Steel Passenger Cars 8,270,648 22,422,262 Total $11,326,783 $100,570,296 177,350,821 Note. — The above figures do not include any portion of the cost of our New York Terminal. Figures shown above for 1890-1900 are not complete on account of certain portion of records having been de- stroyed. Philadelphia, Pa. June 28, 1912. 220 Railroad Exhibit No. 12<;-A. Page 55 Statement and Chart Showing Operating Revenue, Other Income, and Total Income of the Operating Companies (P. R. R., N. C. R., P. B. & W. R. R. and W. J. & S. R. R.) of the Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie, for the Years 1900 to 1911, Incl. Operating Other Total Years Revenue Income Income 1900 $110,991,101.56 $ 8,101,528.16 $119,092,629.72 1901 125,082,186.55 10,538,023.43 135,620,209.98 1902 137,633,358.25 10,948,648.44 148,582,006.69 1903 153,837,595.21 13,160,400.16 166,997,995.37 1904 147,082,677.91 13,894,257.99 160,976,935.90 1905 165,780,069.13 13,967,199.05 179,747,268.19 1906 183,123,126.57 14,272,578.85 197,395,705.42 1907 203,247,487.08 15,749,051.38 218,996,538.46 1908 170,818,913.83 16,317,292.83 187,136,206.66 1909 191,010,396.78 18,199,820.85 209,210,217.63 1910 204,409,561.05 19,960,821.85 224,369,382.90 1911 201,197,367.96 19,701,254.13 220,898,622.09 240 230 220 "*• 210 200 190 180 Millions of Dollars 170 160 150 e- 140 !?•? 130 (*-? 120 110 *■ 100 . -A -JP ■*■ — : ,<>' Z ■y j. '•>.■/ _A >jP -At /^i * — 3 ^u <*•/ V\ A M 1900 1901 / JL *£- 1902 1903 .<>-- / £z^ s JL 1904 Philadelphia, Pa., July 5, 1912. 1905 190o Years 1907 1908 1909 1911 221 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 56 Statement and Chart Showing Rentals, Fixed Charges and Dividends of the Operating Companies (P. R. R., N. C. R., P. B. & W. E. R. and W. J. & S. R. R.) op the Pennsyl- vania Railroad Lines East op Pittsburgh and Erie — for the Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive. Year 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Fixed Rentals Charges Dividends Total $13,446,000.03 % 6,744,820.48 $10,546,365.75 $30,737,186.26 15,419,460.15 6,469,384.72 12,855,849.00 34,744,693.87 12,663,762.12 7,500,283.46 13,980,444.00 34,144,499.58 12,472,319.77 9,236,483.70 16,952,734.50 38,661,537.97 11,445,758.15 8,951,597.37 20,272,666.50 40,670,022.02 12,404,999.30 9,784,172.42 20,777,310.25 42,966,481.97 12,184,806.92 10,286,359.34 22,666,814.75 45,137,981.01 10,327,542.37 14,644,598.20 25,013,015.50 49,985,156.07 7,838,842.31 17,556,675.54 21,820,503.50 47,216,021.35 9,117,840.87 17,572,752.07 22,166,774.50 48,857,367.44' 6,869,187.35 14,983,145.75 27,452,099.75 49,304,432.85 6,204,812.53 13,834,363.09 28,992.097.25 49,031,272.87 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Years Philadelphia, Pa., July 6, 1912. 999 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page 57 Statement and Chart Showing Division of Total Income as Between Operating Expenses, Taxes, Rentals, Fixed Charges, Dividends and Surplus of the Four Operating Companies (P. E. E., N. C. E., P. B. & W. E. E. and W. J. & S. E. E.)— Pennsylvania Eailroad Lines East of Pitts- burgh and Erie, Years 1900 to 1911— Inclusive. Year Operating Expenses $74,698,765.43 Taxes Total* Surplus Total Income 1900 82,483,682.37 $30,737,186.26 $11,172,995.66 $119,092,629.72 1901 82,760,063.41 3,101,419.67 34,144,693.87 15,014,033.03 135,620,209.98 1902 93,498,871.29 3,147,713.40 34,144,499.58 17,790,932.42 148,582,006.69 1903 109,051,187.67 3,514,760.95 38,661,537.97 15,770,508.78 166,997,995.37 1904 104,760,483.56 3,349,687.98 40,670,002.02 12,196,742.34 160,976,935.90 1905 117,973,132.50 3,754,142.36 42,966,481.97 15,053,511.36 179,747,268.19 1906 128,445,310.73 4,640,108.68 45,137,981.01 19,172,305.00 197,395,705.42 1907 150,270,788.88 5,033,839.44 49,985,156.07 13,706,754.07 218,996,538.46 1908 124,248,521.07 5,078,446.12 47,216,021.35 10,593,218.12 187,136,206.66 1909 136,006,143.79 5,949,473.41 48,857,367.44 18,397,232.99 209,210,217.63 1910 152,256,339.81 7,663,103.74 49,304,432.85 15,146,506.50 224,369,382.90 1911 150,531,018.20 8,177,952.92 49,031,272.87 13,158,378.10 220,898,622.09 * Rentals, Fixed Charges and Dividends 230 220 210 200 190 180 170 Millions of Dollars 160 150 140 130 120 110 100 90 80 70 r- ,/- V- / if aC / ->£ ~t >^ / t*=r: S /^Tota, Inc 1- ^ ••"---o -1 - .0 _ 1900 1901 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 Years 1909 1910 1911 Philadelphia, Pa., June 13, 1912. 230 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page E Statement Showing Numbers of Different Classes of Em- ployes on Pension Polls, Deo. 31, 1911, and Number of Pensioners Dec, 1911, per 1000 Employes. Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. Number on Pen- Number Pension- sion Rolls De- ers per 1000 Era- cember 31, 1911. ployes Dec. 31, 1911. Officers, Agents, etc 684 21.9 Operators ' 7 1.8 Conductors 101 22.4 Brakemen . 57 4.8 Enginemen 202 37.5 Piremen 3 .6 Yardmen 129 24.2 Shopmen 875 25.9 Trackmen 578 19.7 Floating (Equipment) 30 25.1 Total 2,666 20.3 231 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page F Statement Showing Accident Deaths Upon Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh, as Compiled prom Re- lief Department Records for the Years 1908, 1909, 1910, AND 1911. Total Total Fatalities Per Occupation Year Employes. Fatalities. 1000 Employes, 1908 4,392 11 2.5 Engineers 1909 4,362 10 2.3 1910 4,757 9 1.9 1911 4,983 6 1.2 1908 4,295 12 2.8 Firemen 1909 3,919 9 2.3 1910 4,372 18 4.1 1911 4,326 7 1.6 1908 3,947 13 3.3 Conductors 1909 3,901 15 3.8 1910 4,128 15 3.6 1911 4,354 21 4.8 1908 10,607 47 4.4 Brakemen 1909 10,220 62 6.1 1910 11,437 77 6.7 1911 11,248 60 5.3 1908 17,420 52 3.0 Trackmen 1909 19,794 60 3.0 1910 24,325 90 3.7 1911 23,659 72 3.0 Philadelphia, Pa., July 22, 1912. 232 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Ph «s B « S a ^ a h o O H H O 3 ^ 50 H K §P r T ""• « z a a GQ g ft 5 o o H t, I— 1 M p Ph Q« >J fc H < 13 d «1 a to 1" fc P 1* ^ Ph J H r^ 10 00 00 t^ 1> CO CN 1 °° 1 m a s CN < CD IO CD f~ 00 00 i-H ■* CO com <1 § •* •* •* •* ■* •* -* "O "O 10 •*•* c-3 i OS 3 cJ"8g O IN ^H eq O OS OS CO t^ 00 (NCO 03 0> SP FH a) 3*3 ■H OI S -* ■* ■* ■* ■* CO CO -* •* Tt" -tUCO i" 3 $ CD 43 b « .2 go O OS "> 00 O CN CO lO CO ^os i£) ■* -* •* 10 >o 10 10 10 m 10-* §°g bfl *» C" njS-V 00 O OS 00 OS O OS ,_( OS as 3 '3 CN CO CN (N CN CO IM CO CO CO CN Average A Employed Enednema 1 sis -3 g .2 go OS OS O CN T-( ^H ^h ■h as g CN CO CO CN CO CO CO CO CO CO Q . 60 J3 §°g 1 co 13 .9 • Average Lengt of Service as Fireman 0) 3 3 '^ to CD CD r~ ■O CD CO 10 t^ OS t- g-3 g "a-e 3 ggo >o CD 00 CD CO t> t~ t~ CO CD en as >> 3 CD p, ! CM S§"Sg CO Average Age Employed as Fireman ts^-o (N 3 -HCqc0Ol»n li <5J 0£^ •OiHcoMwwwejts-us 1- £2g H3 .33 S.S * 9 ,0 o So z n 'S'S o s 01WCO^-CO^-^l-HM ,-, '* i or-t—i>.a3i>.co0jOai 9*3 "2 .2 S 8 NtOO^HCOOSOSOCSi-H 3 "3 a WC0tHO«#OOiH«O to SB !i O O - o a ^ ■- - O 3 Ph O m t-.f^COOTjtcOi-tOO a^ S .2 S3 oocDio^eoiocowNi-t oooooooooo o"ea g tin ^ « •||o ~ '/": "-' ~ r^ ~ ~ T> ~Sj O OOO0O0--I000 01 a S T2 10 OOOOSi-H^lO^t^b-CC a*! " E 8 -i TJ ■''"- J!§s 03 n £ t> p 0) 2,932 3,431 3,600 3,922 4,333 4,583 4,392 4,362 4 r 757 4,983 o3 >< OOOOOOOO'-Hrt ~ " ~ ~ ~ r:- C- ~ T. C. 234 R.ailroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page I Statement Showing the Average Scheduled Speed in Miles Per Hour for Trains Specified, Based Upon Schedules Ef- fective in October of the Yeaes 1905, 1910 and 1911, for Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. New York - Pittsburgh Eastbound Westbound Through Trains 1903 1910 1911 1905 1910 1911 Between Pgh. & Altoona 35.9 34.7 34.5 37.4 36.8 37.1 Altoona&Hbg 41.6 42.1 42.6 40.9 40.8 42.5 Hbg. & Philada 41.7 40.5 41.5 43.1 42.4 42.1 " Philada. & New York 44.7 45.1 43.6 46.7 46.5 46.2 New York - Washington Southbound Noethbound Through Trains 1905 1910 1911 1905 1910 1911 Between New York & Philada 46.0 44.7 44.7 40.2 39.9 42.3 " Philada. & Washington 41.5 43.0 42.1 41.8 41.4 40.8 Philada. & Atlantic City Southbound Northbound Through Trains 1905 1910 1911 1905 1910 1911 Between Camden & Atlantic City 55.8 54 . 8 53 . 9 58 . 5 58 . 6 54 . 5 " Philada. & " 51.7 51.7 49.0 51.0 49.8 48.9 All Scheduled Fast Preference Freight Trains upon Penna. Lines East (both directions) . New York - Chicago Eastbound 18 Hour Train 1905 1910 1911 Between Pgh. and Altoona 46.4 45.2 44.6 Between Altoona & Harrisfcrurg 54.5 54.2 54.2 Between Harrisburg & Phila 56.6 55.9 55.9 Between Phila. & New York 55 . 8 55 . 8 54 5 1905 1910 1911 17.2 18.0 17.8 Westbound 1905 1910 1911 46.7 45.5 45.5 52.4 52.4 52.1 58.5 56.4 56.4 60.8 60.8 56.4 Philadelphia, Pa., June 12, 1912. 235 Railroad Exhibit No. 120- A. Page J Statement and Chart Showing Tons Per Car (Lading), Cars Per Train (Loaded Basis), and Tons Per Train (Lading) — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East op Pittsburgh and Erie. Years 1900 to 1911, Inclusive. Tons Cars Tons Per Car Per Train Per Train Year (Lading) (Loaded Basis) 21.31 24.37 (Lading) 402.40 1900 1901 21.37 24.45 410.10 1902 22.94 23.58 424.49 1903 24.03 23.08 436.03 1904 24.24 22.40 422.64 1905 25.01 20.23 429.39 1906 26.24 20.89 442.17 1907 28.14 21.44 470.12 1908 27.48 22.85 479.59 1909 27.55 24:07 515.58 1910 27.75 23.44 512.99 1911 27.40 24.42 519.58 Tons Tons Cars per per Train Car 520 32 per Train ..<* T i >■ ,y 510 31 * / — ( Y 31 no 30 / / 30 490 29 i i 29 < ^ I I 28 /' / X ) c ""-"—( ) 470 27 / « f 27 / ) 4ro 26 i < 1 26 450 25 To: is pej •"Car / 1 25 440 24. , ( i Y-- - * y i /Tom i per Trail < t > 24 430 23 > ^ h / / / / N / 23 ) */ \. ^ f ; r ( 4?0 ^ /? > H / 22 j ( // ■f % \ .X Oars per ' 'rain 21 s> \ > V 400 20« s ^ 20 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 ,19 )9 1910 19 11 Years Philac .elphu t, Pa., June 24, 19 12. 236 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page K Statement Showing Trains Tied up for Rest, Short of Des- tination, Account of Sixteen Hour Law — April, 1911, to March, 1912, Inclusive. Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie. 1. Total number of freight trains run 760,035 2. Total excess service over 16 hours ' 5,558 Hours, 32 minutes 3. Total number of trains tied up under the 16 Hour Law 3,520 Unavoidable accidents 1,876 Washouts 67 4. Cause of .and facte explanatory of ^ p S weather conditions.' 27? excess service m.u c u ■ i. i Other causes, of which a large proportion could not be con- sidered violations of the Law. 402 5. Number of trains exceeding 16 hours 2,678 6. Percent, of trains exceeding 16 hours to total trains run 35% 7. Percent, of trains tied up under the 16-Hour Law to total train run 46% Philadelphia, Pa., July 22nd, 1912. 237 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page L Statement and Chart Showing Number of Slow Freight Trains and Preference Freight Trains run on the Penn- sylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie — Years 1900 to 1911 Inclusive. Number 28% 27 26 25 24 23 Percentage of Trains 22 Preference 21 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 Year 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 Total Slow Preference Per Cent Preference *- > y" \ \ \ V , \ \ \ \ \ \ \ i ) \ \ / \ — .-< \ \ ( r \ \ ( / ) 1 3- \ / / \ ! / / / 1 > v / / 1 1 1 S / ( _ \ 1 1 1 < i 1 1900 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1908 1909 1911 Years. Philadelphia, Pa., June 25, 1912. 238 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page M Statement and Chart Showing the Number of Steam Loco- motives in Service, as op December 31st., for the Years 1900 to 1912 — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pitts- burgh and Erie. Locomotives weighing less than 150,000 Pounds on Drivers Per Cent of Total Locomotives weighing 150,000 pounds and over, but less than 200,000 pounds on Drivers Per Cent of Total Locomotives weighing 200,000 pounds and over, but less than 300,000 pounds on Drivers Per Cent of Total Locomotives weighing 300,000 pounds and over on Drivers Per Cent of Total Total Number of Year Number Equipment Number Equipment Number Equipment Number Equipment Locomotives 1900 2,394 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 2,585 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 2,350 1911 1912* 2,177 92.7 57.3 51.9 190 1,277 1,537 1,726 7.3 33.1 37.5 41.2 215 284 2,594 3,862 4,102 4,188 * as of June 1st. 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 Philadelphia, Pa., July 5, 1912. 239 Railroad Exhibit No. 120-A. Page N Statement and Chart Showing Ton Mileage, Number of Freight Claims Received, and Ton Miles Per Freight Claim Received — Pennsylvania Railroad Lines East of Pittsburgh and Erie — for Years 1900 to 1911, Incl. Ton Miles Number Freight Per Freight Year Ton Mileage Claims Received Claim Received 1900 13,532,968,666 162,163 83,452 1901 14,347,342,722 167,319 85,741 1902 15,636,346,014 305,472 51,191 1903 16,815,703,192 123,266 136,425 1904 16,175,960,325 131,763 122,765 1905 18,932,306,566 134,414 140,855 1906 20,803,574,788 178,891 116,292 1907 24,186,621,071 222,055 108,935 1908 19,292,737,479 166,473 115,895 1909 21,703,056,275 124,626 174,125 1910 23,141,595,873 139,475 165,925 1911 22,272,262,118 137,006 162,575 180 170 160 150 140 130 Ton Miles 120 [(Thousands) 110 100 90 70 >N 1 / / S > / / ( * / / ! \ / / / \ \ I 1 1 / \ r \ \ \ 1 1 i \ \i X i /* on mi les j er fr eight clai m rec eived / ( » — < \ \ \ \ \ \ \ i \ ) i 1900 1901 1902 1903 1904 1905 1906 Years 1907 190S 1909 1910 1911 Philadelphia, Pa., July 16, 1912. 240 Railroad Exhibits Nos. 121—123. Railroad Exhibit No. 131. (See testimony, page 876, July 26, 1912.) (Not printed.) Award of Arbitrators appointed under the Erdman Act. Ren- dered May 27th, 1911, in the matter of the arbitration be- tween the Coal & Coke Railway Company, on the one part, and the Order of Railway Conductors, the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engi- neers, and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and En- ginemen, representing employes of said Company, on the other part. Railroad Exhibit No. 122. (See testimony, page 886, July 26, 1912.) (Not printed.) Proceedings of Arbitration under the Erdman Act, in the mat- ter of the arbitration between the Coal & Coke Railway Company, on the one part, and the Order of Railway Con- ductors, the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, the Broth- erhood of Locomotive Engineers, and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, representing em- ployes of said Company, on the other. part. Railroad Exhibit No. 123. (See testimony, page 887, July 26, 1912.)' (Not printed.) Bureau of Railway Economics Bulletin No. 34. "A comparative study of the railway wages and the cost of living in the United States, in the United Kingdom and the principal countries of Continental Europe." 241 Railroad Exhibit No. 124. (See testimony, page 888, July 26, 1912.) Erie E. E. Sheet 1 EETE EAILEOAD SYSTEM. Income Account for fiscal year ending June 30, 1911, calendar year 1911 and estimated for fiscal year June 30, 1912, ex- cluding surplus of Coal Companies, interest on Pennsyl- vania Collateral Bonds, contribution to Pennsylvania Col- lateral Sinking Fund and interest on the bonds of this Com- pany owned. June 30, 1911. Dec. 31, 1911. Estimated June 30, 1912. Total Operating Expenses $56,649,908.24 38,854,921.18 $57,073,104.74 39,063,523.50 56,405,558.97 40,640,376.97 Net Operating Revenue 17,794,987.06 1,390,379.87 18,009,581.24 1,627,666.57 15,765,182.00 1,816,229.80 Other Income: Rents Accrued from Lease of , 16,404,607.19 15,000.00 557,870.05 114,424.14 117,972.50 11,257.34 680,895.00 69,994.34 1,567,413.37 16,381,914.67 15,000.00 580,407.71 114,424.14 128,772.50 80,010.22 681,880.40 70,967.89 13,948,952.2 15,000.00 610,312.14 Buffalo Creek R. R. Co Surplus. Dividends Declared on Stocks Owned or Controlled Interest Accrued on Bonds Owned or Controlled Interest on Other Securities, Miscellaneous Income 131,436.99 108,712.64 302,392.11 553,918.75 169,517.74 1,671,462.86 1,891,290.37 Gross Corporate Income Deductions from Gross Corpor- ate Income: Rents Accrued for Lease of 17,972,020.56 998,868.29 512,862.16 668,295.04 810,499.03 9,127,796.02 76,601.61 375,000.00 18,053,377.53 847,961.13 628,987.20 669,878.85 901,843.24 9,378,764.48 86,560.13 377,200.00 15,840,242.57 2,251,504.58 Hire of Equipment (Balance) 686,878.54 686,014.42 871,886.52 Interest Accrued on Funded Debt 7,957,238.00 85,952.34 23,033.34 Total Deductions from Gross Corporate Income 12,569,922.15 12,891,195.03 12,562,507.74 5,402,098.41 1,339,737.45 5,162,182.50 1,183,456.70 3,277,734.83 Appropriated for Additions and Betterments 633,092.40 4,062,360.96 3,978,725.80 2,644,642,43 Summary. Sheet 1 indicates surplus after Fixed Charges fiscal year ending June 30, 1912 Sheet 2 indicates wage increase, if applied to other employes who have or will ask for same in- crease as requested by engineers $2,644,642.43 3,487,030.64 Deficit for Fixed Charges $842,388.21 242 Railroad Exhibit 124. Erie E. E. Sheet 2 Erie Eaileoad System. Total Wage Increase asked for by Engineers $426,191.91 Additional amounts to be paid to the following classes of service, based on the percentage increase allowed to Engineers. Firemen, Freight $158,553.09 Firemen, Passenger 53,940.91 Firemen, Yard 50,293.18 Hostlers 4,169.35 Hostler Helpers 3,387.49 Engine Preparers 34,042.83 Conductors, Freight 155,595.98 Conductors, Passenger 69,957.75 Conductors, Yard 79,184.50 Brakemen and Flagmen, Freight 258,877.98 Brakemen and Baggagemen, Passenger 90,147.00 Brakemen Helpers and Flagmen, Yard 171,697.49 Agents and Operators (not including telephone ex- change operator) 213,927.27 Other Station Employes 610,051.22 Train Despatches 31,888.02 Section Foremen 91,532.54 Trackmen 479,379.60 Machine Shop Foremen and Car Shop Foremen .... 77,490.19 Machinists . .' 156,753.86 Blacksmiths 27,567.11 JBoilermakers 48,597.25 Car Eepairers 141,762.07 Car Inspectors 52,042.05 $3,060,838.73 Grand Total $3,487,030.64 243 Railroad Exhibit No. 125. (See testimony, page 888, July 26, 1912.) N. Y., S. & W. Sheet 1 NEW YORK, SUSQUEHANNA & WESTERN RAILROAD SYSTEM. Income Account for fiscal year ending June 30, 1911, calendar year 1911 and estimated for fiscal year June 30, 1912. June 30, 1911. Dec. 31, 1911. Estimated June 30, 1912. Total Operating Expenses $3,876,678.19 2,355,860.90 S3,989,335.26 2,349,707.91 $3,656,253.62 2,358,441.55 Net Operating Revenue 1,520,817.29 148,755.36 1,639,627.35 186,604.58 1,297,812.07 209,631.91 1,372,061.93 108,453.36 3,201.60 32,964.98 12,203.78 1,453,022.77 J108,141.82 I 4,802.40 44,767.37 11,784.81 1,088,180.16 Other Income :_ 79,336.73 Miscellaneous Rents Interest on Bonds Owned or Interest on Other Securities, 28,533.90 4,398.03 52,139.22 11,371.30 156,823.72 169,496.40 175,779.18 Deductions from Gross Corpor- ate Income: Rents Accrued for Lease of 1,528,885.65 10,968.40 129,052.45 54,569.88 23,961.68 775,356.67 440.00 1,622,519.17 18,579.50 143,135.32 58,530.56 29,027.18 . 789,706.66 1,250.00 440.00 1,263,959.34 19,272.21 Eire of Equipment (Balance) 141,209.29 46,575.88 Interest Accrued on Funded Debt 28,674.98 802,064.98 Sinking Funds Chargeable to 440.00 Total Deductions from Gross 994,349.08 1,040,669.22 1,038,237.34 Appropriated for Additions and 534,536.57 163,904.19 581,849.95 166,130.18 225,722.00 86,868.35 370,632.38 415,719.77 138,853.65 Summary. Sheet 1 indicates surplus after fixed charges for fiscal year ending June 30, 1912 $138,853.65 Sheet 2 indicates wage increase, if applied to other employes who have, or will ask for same in- crease as requested by engineers 288,255.93 Deficit for fixed charges $149,402.28 244 Railroad Exhibit 125. N. Y., S. & W. Sheet 2 ■ New York, Susquehanna & Western Railroad System. Total Wage Increase asked for by Engineers $36,587.27 Additional amounts to be paid to the following classed of service,, based on the percentage increase allowed to Engineers. Firemen, Freight $14,964.79 Firemen, Passenger 5,363.87 Firemen, Yard 2,340.52 Hostlers Hostler Helpers Engine Preparers 4,993.31 Conductors, Freight 13,572.04 Conductors, Passenger . 7,119.78 Conductors, Yard 4,515.16 Brakemen and Flagmen, Freight 24,582.96 Brakemen and Baggagemen, Passenger 8,262.54 Brakemen Helpers and Flagmen, Yard 9,733.11 Agents and Operators (not including telephone ex- change operator) 24,868.35 Other Station Employes 47,407.08 Train Despatchers 3,731.37 Section Foremen 8,439.90 Trackmen 38,275.52 Machine Shop Foremen and Car Shop Foremen .... 4,270.53 Machinists 9,581.16 Blacksmiths 1,426.23 Boilermakers 2,889.85 Car Repairers 7,742.82 Car Inspectors 7,587.77 $251,668.66 Grand Total $288,255.93 245 Railroad Exhibit No. 126. (See testimony, page 888, July 26, 1912.) N. J. & N. Y. Sheet 1 ■ NEW JERSEY & NEW YORK RAILROAD COMPANY. Income Account for fiscal year ending June 30, 1911, calendar year 1911 and estimated for fiscal year June 30, 1912. June 30, 1911 Dec. 31, 1911 Estimated June 30, 1912. Gross Operating Revenue Total Operating Expenses $755,099.52 475,067.91 $786,700.64 491,938.96 $802,176.23 522,073.09 Net Operating Revenue 280,031.61 15,062.08 294,761.68 17,130.25 280,103.14 20,720.00 264,969.53 2,789.97 1,072.63 277,631.43 2,895.12 824.75 259,383.14 3,483.21 380.46 Other Income: Interest on Other Securities, 3,862.60 3,719.87 3,863.67 Gross Corporate Income Deductions from Gross Corpor- ate Income: Hire of Equipment (Balance) . 268,832.13 56,810.55 113,736.73 51,531.34 281.351.30 62,102.14 118,006.55 52,231.36 263,246.81 -60,628.99 115,520.33 Interest Accrued on Funded 51,300.28 Total Deductions from Gross Corporate Income 222,078.62 232,430.05 227,449.60 Appropriated for Additions and 46,753.51 15,762.88 48,921.25 40,446.78 35,797.21 24,416.85 30,990.63 8,474.47 11,380.36 Summary. Sheet 1 indicates surplus after Fixed Charges for fiscal year ending June 30, 1912 $11,380.36 Sheet 2 indicates wage increase if applied to other employes who have or will ask for same increase as requested by engineers 69,862.83 Deficit for Fixed Charges $58,482.47 7.8.12 M ■246 Railroad Exhibit 126. N. J. & N. Y. Sheet 2 New Jersey & New York Railroad Company. Total Wage Increase asked for by Engineers $11,118.05 Additional amounts to be paid to the following classes of service, based on the percentage increase allowed to Engineers. Firemen, Freight $2,500.95 Firemen, Passenger 5,271.60 Firemen, Yard Hostlers ._ ■ Hostler Helpers Conductors, Freight 3,193.43 Conductor-s, Passenger 6,295.24 Conductors, Yard Brakemen and Flagmen, Freight 6,241.86 Brakemen and Baggagemen, Passenger 8,480.15 Brakemen Helpers and Flagmen, Yard Agents and Operators (not including telephone ex- change operator) 7,898.54 Other Station Employes 5,005.44 Train Despatchers 1,255.90 Section Foremen ! 2,495.07 Trackmen 10,106.60 Machine Shop Foremen and Car Shop Foremen .... Machinists Blacksmiths Boilermakers Car Repairers Car Inspectors — ■ $58,744.78' Grand Total $69,862.83 247 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. (See testimony, page 909, July 26, 1912.) VANDALIA RAILROAD COMPANY. In the Matter of The Demand op Enginemen foe Higher Wages Before the Arbitration Board. Statement in Behalf of The Vandalia Railroad Company. Vandalia Railroad Company. In the HI after of The Demand of Enginemen For Higher Wages. The rates of pay and working conditions demanded in the petition of the enginemen of the Vandalia Railroad Company, calls for an annual increase of 13.28 per cent, or $52,695.00. Collateral increases by reason of granting to all other em- ployes receiving less than $300.00 per month, the same ratio of advance will amount to $579,507.00, thus making a total increase in the payrolls of the Vandalia Railroad Company of $632,202.00 per annum. This will be equivalent to placing a lien of $15,805,000.00 of 4 per cent, bonds unon the pronerty having a preference in in- come over existing first mortgage bonds, an amount in excess of the stock liability and equal to 80.69 per cent, of the present mortgage indebtedness. It would mean that the Vandalia Rail- road Company under present business conditions with its exist- 248 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. ing facilities and the compensation allowed for services per- form would be obliged, not only to suspend the payment of divi- dends but in addition be left with an income insufficient to meet its interest charges. To restore the property to a five per cent, dividend basis would require an increase in gross earnings over those of the year 1911 of approximately 52.0 per cent., an in- crease in the volume of the traffic, which with the present facili-. ties and equipment, it would be a physical impossibility to handle. General Increase in Wages Not Justifiable. When the wages were increased in 1910, amounting to $439,- 512.00 per annum, it was realized that this property could not be kept on a five per cent, dividend basis and its credit thus maintained, except through relief in the way of increased freight rates. That such relief was sought and denied is a matter of public record. Since then, the general conditions as applied to railroads have not changed, at least for the better, nor are the duties of the employes more arduous. The following comparison of the operating expenses of the year 1905 (at the beginning of which year, the present corporate organization of the company became effective) with those of 1911 show the cost to have been increased principally through labor. Year 1905 Year 1911 Increase 1911 over 1905 Decrease 1911 under 1905 Percent, of gross earnings absorbed by operating expenses (exclus- ive of taxes) 75.51 78.23 2.72 Percent, of operating expenses (exclusive of taxes) absorbed by, Labor Material Other Items (a) 56.53 30.77 12.70 58.76 27.94 13.30 2.23 .60 2.83 (a) Includes expenses in connection with rent of offices, outside agencies, personal injuries, join facilities, equipment depreciation, advertising, loss and damage claims, stock claims, etc. 249 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Collateral Increases. Effective December 1, 1905, the Vandalia Railroad Com- pany granted to all employes receiving less than $200.00 per month, an increase of ten per cent, in wages and this with other- adjustments made during the year amounted to $437,196.00 per annum. Between that time and April,j|1910, when a general increase in six per cent, in pay was made to all employes and officers receiving less than $300.00 per month, such other ad- justments in wages and working conditions were made as would place all classes of employes on an equitable basis. The employes engaged in train and engine service, viz. : the conductors, trainmen, switchmen, enginemen and firemen were dissatisfied with the increase granted in April, 1910, and through mediation and arbitration boards, succeeded in obtaining an ad- ditional advancement. The increase to these particular classes of employes on the Vandalia Railroad in 1910, amounted to 15.7 per cent., while to other employes it was but 6.0 per cent. Should the enginemen now be granted a further increase, it is reasonable to assume that any arbitration board would in fairness be obliged to con- cede as a minimum a like per cent, of increase to other employes. Under existing rates of pay and rules, engineers on the Van- dalia Railroad, when working full time, can earn per month in each class of service, From to Passenger $145.80 $225.06 according to assignment Freight, through 116.40 198.24 Freight, local 126.00 168.30 Yard and switching service 107.90 136.80 A statement showing the monthly wages (equivalent to full time) of engine, train and yard men, on each division of the Vandalia Railroad Company, before and after the last general increase in rates of pay is hereto attached and marked Exhibit "B." it 250 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Financial Problems. With the close of the year 1907, which was one of great pros- perity, a policy of retrenchment except as applied to rates _ of pay of employes, became imperative and during the succeeding years no improvements have been made or added to the prop- erty, nor any expenditures made except such as were necessary for safety and economy and for the present service demanded by the public. Regardless of the policy adopted, the operations for the year 1910, after paying the usual dividends (five per cent.) showed a deficit of $84,567.00. This was paid out of the surplus with the hope that it could be recouped in future years. The operations of the year 1911 produced an amount sufficient to pay •dividends of but 2% per cent. The year 1912, without taking into account the increase in wages now demanded gives promise of showing even more unfavorable results. A conservative valuation of the physical properties of the Vandalia Eailroad Company shows it to be worth not less than $71,000.00 per mile of road. To duplicate the property at, pres- ent day prices, the cost would be very much in excess of this amount. Facilities Needed. The ton mileage on the lines now comprising the Vandalia Eailroad has increased in the last 19 years — 1893 to 1911 — 154 per cent, or at the rate of 8 per cent, per annum. The increase during the last five-year period has been below the normal, aver- aging but 2.6 per cent, per annum. To maintain the average of the past 19 years the increase for the ensuing five years should be in excess of 8 per cent, annum. Assuming the normal rate of development to continue at the rate of 8 per cent, per annum, it must be patent that additional facilities and equip- ment will be needed and further that with the present cost of producing traffic and no hope of increased rates for transporting passengers, mail or freight, the financing becomes most difficult. A railroad company has three sources through which it can expand, viz. : 251 Railroad Exhibit A 7 o. 1:27. 1. Sale of its stock. 2. Sale of its bonds. 3. Income resulting from operations. In the case of the Vandalia Railroad Company, the reduc- tion, in its dividend in 1911 and its future uncertainty, makes its stock less desirable to the investor, and the bonds can be mar- keted only at a heavy discount. The surplus income from opera- tions is becoming a negligible quantity. Improvements Required. The following statement ishows the cost of improvements and facilities required within the next five year period that ade- quate service may be given : 1. That part of the railroad between Indianapolis and East St. Louis was, in the years 1907 and 1910 taxed to its capacity and to prepare for the nat- ural increase in business, prevent congestion, and adequately serve the public, should, within the next five years, have completed the building of its second main track. This will cost for 178 miles. .$15,000,000 2. The main locomotive and repair shops located at Terre Haute, Ind., are inadequate to meet the re- quirements of the present equipment. The needs in this respect will call for an expenditure of . ... 2,000,000 3. The installation of automatic block signals on the double track between Indianapolis and East St. Louis (such requirement being by statute in the State of Indiana) will cost 525,000 4. Owing to its financial condition and the volume and nature of its traffic, this Company obtained from the Railroad Commission of the State of Indiana, an order permitting it to postpone until the year 1913, the installation of block signals on its Michi- gan Division. This installation will cost 83,500 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. 5. Freight destined to St. Louis was delayed and held back in the yards in both the years 1910 and 1911 on account of insufficient freight house facili- ties at East St. Louis. To furnish them, an in- bound freight house should be constructed requir- ing an expenditure of 100,000 • 6. The Vandalia Railroad Company owns 252 loco- motives, a sufficient number to serve the present needs. During the last five-year period, one of business depression, its equipment has been in- creased by 29 locomotives. It is reasonable to as- sume that the expansion in business for the next five-year period will be at least as great as in the past. Twenty-nine locomotives will cost. . . 542,000 7. The Vandalia Railroad Company originates more cars of freight traffic than it receives from its connections, the percents being respectively, 58.44 and 41.56. It had on its rails for the year ending February 28, 1912, an average of 136. per cent, of the cars it owned, divided 48.0 per cent, to cars owned and 88. rer cent, to ownership by other railroad companies. The foregoing, together with destinations and character of the business origi- nated and received in interchange has demon- strated that its freight car equipment is below its necessities. There has been purchased and added to the equipment during the last five-year period 960 freight cars. A like number for the en- suing five-year period will cost 960,000 8. Passenger equipment cars now needed will cost. . 110,000 Total $19,320,500 253 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Conclusions. It is submitted: L That there is no justification for an increase in the wage? of the enginemen employed on the Vandalia Railroad, ac- count of (a) Inadequate pay for service performed or the cost of living. (b) Inadequate wages as compared with those of other classes of employes in railroad service, or with those of other crafts in different service. (c) The duties being more arduous or the risk to life any greater. II. That the enginemen are now, for the services performed, the best paid class of employes on the railroad. III. That should standardization seem desirable, which I do not believe, there should be a general adjustment and a starting point or line established whereby properties having average resources and average earning powers, may not be thrown into bankruptcy. IV. That were the demands contained in the petition of the enginemen of this company conceded, together with the col- lateral increases which would of necessity follow, a condi- tion would be brought about whereby dividends would be suspended, interest charges unearned and the property not satisfactorily maintained, and much needed facilities and improvements indefinitely postponed. V. That a property such as the Vandalia Railroad, with a low capitalization, with average resources, with a record for honest and economical management should have forced upon it a scale of wages, denying to the investor a fair return on his money and burdensome to the extent of causing a loss from operation. Signed in behalf of the VANDALIA RAILROAD COMPANY, By Benjamin McKeen, General Manager. St. Louis, Mo. July 12, 1912. 254 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Exhibit "B." VANDALIA EAILROAD COMPANY. St. Louis Division. Statement showing monthly wages (equivalent to full time) of engine, train and yard men before and after the last in- crease in rates of pay. Items AVg. hrs. Miles worked run per day. (Month) ouis 6'01" 7657 6'01 " 6'01 " uis Pool, nd Eads 6992 6'53" 6876 6'53" 6'53" ouis 7'52" 6262 7'52" 7'52" am 4'06" 4371 4'06" 4'06" Haute 3'38" 4526 3'38" 3'38" . Louis . 4'41" 5146- 4'41 " 4'41" sM. B. 4'41" 5425 4'41" 4'41" sE. B. 4'41 " 5239 4'41 " Wages per mo. prior to 4-1-10 (per Man) Wages Oct. 1911 (per Man) Remarks Through Passenger Indianapolis - St. L Merchants Bridge Pf Conductor Baggageman Brakemen Indianapolis - St. Lo Merchants Bridge a Bridge Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Passenger Effingham and St. L Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Indianapolis-Effingh Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Indianapolis - Terre Engineman Fireman Fireman Terre Haute-East St Engineman Fireman Fireman Terre Haute -St. Loui Engineman . . . Fireman Fireman Terre Haute-St. Loui Engineman . . . Fireman 173.90 97.05 86.80 162.75 91.28 80.99 153.14 91.76 78.12 136.40 75.02 68.20 173.60 98.58 192.51 109.12 204.60 115.94 201 . 19 112.53 205.20 118.73 114.70 184.391 106.581- 103. 09J 168.02 108.50 93.62 144.46 85.25 79.05 186.62 112.22 116.87 213.59 128.65 133.92 225.06 135.47 141.05 217.31 130.82 13 crews run 12 trains 6 Eads and 6 Merch. Br. 11 crews run 10 trains 6 Eads and 4 Merch. Br. Round trip basis Oct. Medium rate. High rate. Medium rate. High rate. Medium rate. High rate. Medium rate. 11 255 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Avg. hrs worked per day Miles run (Month) Wages per Mo. prior to 4-1-10 (Per man) Wages Oct. 1911 (Per Man) Remarks T. Haute-Eff'ham E. St. Louis Local Pool Engineman Fireman Through Freight (Preference) Indianapolis-E. St. Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Pref. Frt. & Passgr. (Mail train) Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Indianapolis - Terre Haute Engineman Fireman Engineman . Fireman Terre Haute E. St. Louis Engineman . Fireman Engineman . Fireman . Through Freight-Si Indianapolis-Terre Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman Fireman Terre Haute - E. St. Louis Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman Fireman 5'27" 5'27" Louis 9'50" 9'50" 9'50" 9'50" 9'50" 9'50" 4'42" 4'42" 4'42" 5'20" 5'20" 5'20" ow Haute 6 Hrs. 9'58" 9'58" 9'58" 8'48" 8'48" 8'48" 5146 4939 4939 3017 (2139 frt (453 pass 3431 (2573 frt (956 pass 2898 2553 4293 3804 192.51 109.12 136.40 88.66 88.66 127.82 73.88 73.88 143.01 81.87 157.84 93.21 112.98 85.26 85.26 128.02 75.11 151.94 104.46 104.46 177.65 104.76 216.07 124.93 161.20 107.46 107.46 147.66 91.24 91.24 176.08 103.23 108.50 164.92 97.44 103.39 152.46 101.64 101.64 179.45 105.45 111.00 170.34 116.34 116.34 198.24 119.29 123.96 Low Rate 3 crews run 2-31 & Pref. Pool, 3 crews run i pref. Frt. trains. Pref. Pool, 5 crews run 6 trains inc. 1 pass, train High frt. and medium pass, rate Pref. Pool, 6 crewsand 4 trains. o crews, 3 frt. and 1 pass.' train, Low frt. and medium pass. rate. High frt. and high pass. rate. Low rate High rate Low rate ■"Tien rate 256 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Avg. hrs. Miles worked run per day. (Month) 8'17" 1971 8'17" 8'17" 8'47" 8'47" am 8'17" 1836 8'17" 8'17" 8'47" 1836 , 8'47" uis (15 hr . Local) 8'17" 1764 8'17" 8'17" 8'47" 1764 8'47" uis (10 h r. Local) 8'17" 3038 8'17" 8'17" 8'47" 8'47" 12'55" 336 Hrs. 12'55" 12'55" 13'21" 347 Hrs. 13'21 " 10'03" 10'03" 10'03" 10'03" 10'33" 10'33" 10'25" 10'25" 10'25" 10'25" 10'55" 10'55" Wages per mo. prior Wages to 4-1-10 Oct. 1911 (Per man) (per man 109.89 118.80 74.25 80.19 74.25 80.19 126.09 143.91 69.66 89.10 109.89 118.80 74.25 80.19 74.25 80.19 126.09 143.91 69.66 89.10 106.92 113.40 73.26 77.58 73.26 77.58 117.72 130.86, 66.04 81.00 109.12 124.00) 71.61 83.70 71.61 83.70 141.36 150.35 83.39 93.00J 129.16 134.401 86.69 90.72 86.69 90.72 148.96 168.30 89.52 104. 10J 105.35 114.38 111.37 120.40 96.32 105.35 102.34 111.37 104.28 129.56 66.04 82.16 99.00 102.60 99.00 108.00 82.50 94.50 82.50 99.00 93.72 116.44 59.36 73.84 Remarks Local Freight Terre Haute-Indianapolis Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman Terre Haute-EfEngh Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman Effingham-E. St. Lo Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman EfEngham-E. St. Lo Conductor Brakeman , Brakeman Engineman Fireman Greenville Local Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Engineman Fireman Yard. East St. Louis Conductor Day. Conductor Night Brakeman Day. . Brakeman Night Engineman Fireman Collinsville Conductor Day . Conductor Night Brakeman Day . . Brakeman Night Engineman Fireman Daily, ex. Sunday Daily, ex. Sunday Works 4 days per .week Assisting local. Service of this kind not regular in 1910, but would have been paid for at through freight rate. Switching local. Daily except Sunday. No mile age : 2 crews off each Sunday Daily, except Sunday 257 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Avg. hrs. Wages per Wages worked Miles mo. prior Oct. 1911 Remarks per run to 4-1-10 (Per day (Month) (Per Man) Man) Effingham Conductor Day . . . 10 Hrs. 99.00 111.60 Daily Conductor Night . . 11 ( 99.00 129.58 Brakeman Day .... 10 ' 82.50 102.30 Brakeman Night. . 10 t 82.50 108.50 Engineman Day . . . 10 ' 107.25 124.00 Engineman Night. . 11 ' 136.40 Fireman Day 10 < 67.92 77.50 Fireman Night. . . . 11 " 85.25 Terre Haute Conductor Day . . . 10'45" 107.58 120.62 4 crews off each Sun. Conductor Night. . 10'45" 110.84 127.14 Brakeman Day .... 10'45" 97.80 110.84 Brakeman Night . . 10'45" 100.06 117.36 Engineman 11'15" 112.86 136.80 Fireman 11'15" 71.48 85.50 Brazil - Yard and Passenger Center Point Branch Conductor 10'43" 96.14 115.991 Daily, except Sunday. 4 Brakeman 10'43" 78.98 90.62 hrs. per day pass, at Pass. Engineman 11 Hrs. 101.75 132.00 overtime rates. Fireman 11 Hrs. 64.68 81.20J Brazil - Yard and Miners Train Conductor 10'43" 103.60 124.411 3 hrs. per day pass at Brakeman 10'43" 88.15 102.72 pass, overtime rates. Engineman 11 Hrs. 105.60 135.80 Yard work paid for at Fireman 11 Hrs. 67.74 83.90J night f rates, acct. work commencing at 5 A. M. Brazil Yard- Day Conductor 10'43" 101.64 113.96 Brakeman 10'43" 92.40 104.72 Engineman 11 Hrs. 105.93 128.40 Fireman . . . •. 11 Hrs. 67.10 80.25 258 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Items Local Passenger Terre Haute to South Bend Conductor Baggageman . . . Brakeman Terre Haute to Logansport Engineman Fireman Logansport to South Bend Engineman . . . Fireman Logansport to Butler Engineman . . . Fireman Conductor .... Brakeman .... Avg.Hrs. worked per day Through Freight Slow Terre Haute to Logansport Engineman .... Fireman Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Logansport to South Bend Logansport to Fort Wayne Engineman. . . . Fireman Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Miles run Oct. 1911 7'05" 7'05" 7 '05" 4'25" 4'25" 4'30" 4'30" 3'40" 3'40" 5'28" 5'28" 7'25" 7'25" 7'14" 7'14" 7' 14" 9'30" 9'30" 9'30" 9'20" 9'20" 6327 6327 6327 3951 3951 4092 4092 3224 3224 4836 4836 Wages per mo. prior to 4-1-10 (Per man) Wages Oct. 1911 (Per Man) 2668 2668 2668 2668 2668 2935 2935 2935 2935 2935 $162.35 89.70 80.30 147.85 82.45 153.15 84.94 119.95 66.55 125.85 62.90 122.60 66.00 92.25 61.85 61.85 135.15 79.35 103.35 70.25 70.25 Remarks $172.10 98.05 94.90 163.85 94.70 171.10 98.90 133.801 77.301 137.80' 72.55 The enginemen assigned to this branch earn about $12 a month additional on other parts of the road on Sundays. There are no Sunday passgr. trains on this branch. 129.95 77.05 97.75 65.55 65.55 145.40 85.45 109.55 74.60 74.60 259 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. A vg. hrs. Wages per Wages V forked Miles mo. prior Oct. 1911 Remarks per run to 4-1-10 (Per day (Month) (Per Man) Man) Local Freight: Terre Haute to Logansport Engineman 8'07" 2010 117.15 146.30 Fireman 8'07" 2010 65.70 90.50 Conductor 7'56" 2010 108.70 120.65 Brakeman 7'56" 2010 73.30 81.45 Brakeman 7'56" 2010 73.30 81.45 Brakeman 7'56" 2010 73.30 81.45 Logansport to Butler Engineman 7'17* 1612 111.45 126.00 Fireman 717" 1612 62.90 78.00 Conductor 7'08" 1612 101.90 108.00 Brakeman 7'08" 1612 70.55 74.70 Brakeman 7'08" 1612 70.55 74.70 Brakeman 7'08" 1612 70.55 74.70 Logansport to South Bend Engineman 7'33" 1716 109.98 126.10 Fireman 7'33" 7 '20" 1716 1716 61.35 95.70 78.00 104.00 Conductor Brakeman 7'20" 1716 65.80 70.20 Brakeman 7'20" 1716 65.80 70.20 Swing Brakeman . . 7'20" 65.80 70.20 Works south from South Bend to meeting point Yard of No. 262, North bound Logansport Hours local. Engineman 11 Hrs. 341 112.55 136.40 Fireman ( « 341 71.25 85.25 Conductor Day . . . i « 341 112.55 126.15 Brakeman Day .... ( U 341 95.50 115.95 Brakeman Day .... 1 it 341 95.50 115.95 Conductor Night . . t U 341 115.95 133.00 Brakeman Night . . i a 341 98.90 122.75 Brakeman Night . . l u 341 98.90 122.75 South Bend Engineman Fireman L0 Hrs. ( it i « 310 310 310 102.30 64.80 102.30 124.00 77.50 114.70 Conductor Day . . . Brakeman Day .... f U 310 86.80 105.40 Brakeman Day. . . . ( It 310 86.80 105.40 Conductor Night. . i a 310 105.40 120.90 Brakeman Night . . i u 310 89.90 111.60 Brakeman Night . . i a 310 89.90 111.60 Coal Trains & Crawfordsville Frankfort Shifter Engineman 9'25" 292 96.35 116.80 9'25" 913" 292 286 61.30 88.65 73.00 108.70 Conductor Brakeman 913" 286 65.80 94.40 Brakeman 913" 286 65.80 . 94.40 260 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Vandalia Railhoad Company Vincennes Division Indianapolis Terminal Division Statement Showing Monthly Wages (equivalent to full time of engine, train and yard men before and after the last In- crease in Rates of pay. Items Avg. hrs worked per day Miles run (Month) Wages per mo. prior to 4-1-10 (Per Man) Wages Oct.1911 (Per Man) Remarks Local Passenger: Indianapolis to Vincennes Engineman Fireman Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Through Freight Indianapolis to Vincennes Engineman Fireman Conductor Brakeman Brakeman Indianapolis to- Bush Engineman Fireman . Conductor. Brakeman . Brakeman . Local Freight Indianapolis to Spen Engineman Fireman Conductor Brakeman Brakeman 6'06» 6'06" 6'06" 6'06" 6'06" 11 Hrs. U U 10'30" 10'30" 10'30" rod 6'24" 6'24" 8 Hrs. cer 10'06" 10'06" 9'36" 9'36" 9'36" 5428 5428 5428 5428 5428 3120 3120 3120 3120 3120 2160 * (2700) 2160 * (2700) 2880 2880 2880 1560 1560 1560 1560 1560 189.50 103.50 161.00 91.10 86.00 138.30 79.55 108.70 72.80 69.95 125.10 72.30 97.30 68.50 64.95 119.60 67.10 98.55 66.55 63.70 223.55 129.25 170.65 96.60 91.10 153.90 95.40 115.20 80.10 76.70 116.40 72.00 116.15 80.95 77.45 138.60 85.80 114.40 80.10 77.20 * Miles run prior to Apr. 1, 1910. The miles run by engineman prior to Apr. 1, 1910 were greater acct. numerous double- headers. 261 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Items Avg. hrs. worked per day- Miles run (Month) Wages per mo. prior to 4-1-10 (Per Man) Oct. 1911 (Per Man) Remarks Spencer to "Vincennes Engineman . . . Fireman Conductor. . . . Brakeman. . . . Brakeman .... Yard Bushrod and Greene County Coal Branch Engineman . . . Fireman Conductor. . . . Brakeman .... Vincennes Engineman. . Fireman Conductor. . . Brakeman. . . Indianapolis Engineman . . Fireman Conductor . . . Brakeman. . . Miscellaneous Work Train Engineman . . Fireman Conductor. . . Brakeman. . . 10'06" 10'06" 9'36" 9'36" 9'36" 12 Hrs. 12 Hrs. 11'30" 11'30" 10'12" 10'12" 10 Hrs. 10 " 10 Hrs. 13 Hrs. 13 " 12'30" 12'30" 1664 1664 1664 1664 1664 119.60 67.10 98.55 66.55 63.70 117.05 65.40 93.30 81.25 89.10 56.45 84.65 73.70 102.30 65.20 101.65 92.40 131.85 73.55 111.85 74.60 138.60 85.80 114.40 80.10 77.20 125.20 78.25 108.35 99.35 107.90 67.45 98.55 90.10 127.10 81.10 117.05 107.80 176.00 105.60 152.55 96.60 The pay of yard engine- man at Bushrod and on Branch prior to 1910 was considerably higher than at Indianapolis and Vin- cennes; however, during wage adjustment in 1910 these rates were equal- ized, the Indianapolis yard rates being slightly higher. 262 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Items Avg^ his. Miles worked run per day (Month) 6'31 " 4524 6'3l" 4524 6'17" 4524 6'17" 4524 6'17" 4524 7'30" 4888 7'30" 4888 6'o5" 4888 6'55" 4888 7'20" 4888 716" 4108 7'18" 4108 ■ 6'45" 4108 7Hrs. 4108 7'17" 4108 8'38" 2879 8'38" 2879 8'38" 2879 8'38" 2879 Wages per Wages mo. prior Oct. 1911 to 4-1-10 (Per (Per Man) Man) 163.02 187.72 91 .52 108.68 121.42 1381.58 68.64 78.52 60.06 73.58 177 .32 204.88 97.;24 118.56 125.84 143.52 71 .24 81.90 «&2.92 79.82 160.16 170.56 -...91.52 98.54 122.72 139.88 68.54 78.52 62.92 73.32 141.22 168.25 84.14 98.50 108.68 124.57 67.91 83.29 Remark Through Passenger Terre Haute & Peoria Engineman Fireman Conductor Baggageman Brakeman Local Passenger Terre Haute and Decatur Engineman . Fireman Conductor ; Baggageman Brakeman Mixed Decatur and Peoria Engineman . Fireman Conductor. .Baggageman Brakeman Through Freight Engineman Fireman Conductor Brakeman 2(53 Railroad Exhibit No. 127. Avg. hrs. Miles Wages per Wages Items worked run mo. prior Oct. 1911 Remarks per (Month) to 4-1-10 (Per day (Per Man) Man) Local Freight Terre Haute and De catur Engineman 9'12" 1692 113.76 130.86 Two trains run by three 9'12" 9 Hrs. 1692 1692 64.26 103.86 81.00 112.14 Conductor Brakeman u a 1692 71.28 77.58 Decatur and Peoria Engineman 11 '51" 2054 115.70 138.58 11'51" 11 '22" 2054 2054 64.22 101.40. 85.80 114.40 Conductor Brakeman 11'22" 2054 65.78 77.22 Yard Service There is but one crew in Night, Decatur this yard and normally Engineman 13'33" \25.69 164.40 it works but 11 hrs. per 13'33" 1303" -82.35 121.35 102.75 150.10 day. On a 11 hr. per day Conductor basis the wages would be Brakeman 13'03" - ,95.35 138.25 correspondingly reduced. Day, Paris Engineman 11'30" 95T7O 120.00 11 '30" 11 '30" 62.70 92.40 72.60 75.00 108.00 Conductor Brakeman 11 '30" 99.00 Cornell University Library HD5325.R163 Proceedings.Arbitration between the Brot 3 1924 002 217 069