GENERAL INDIAN INVESTIGATION HEARINGS 1-17 INCLUSIVE BEFORE COIVIIVIITTEI UN EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTIViENT HON. HENRY GEORGE7 JR. QforneUllmtieraitg Sltbrarg iltljara. Htm ifork . Mra. ,H.. . .Qe-or^., ... Jr.... Cornell University Library HD171.A32 139 1911 Hearings before the Committee on Expendi olin 1924 030 040 475 I Cornell University y Library The original of tiiis book is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924030040475 No. 1 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT or THE HOUSE OF REPKESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN . THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 5, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT FEINTING OTTICE ^i ' ^^Y\. EXPENDITURES IN TpSSTlNTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room Xo, 296j House OfBce Building. Teleplione 591. Meets on call.) JAMBS M. GRAHAM, Chairman, Illinois. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THBRON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. MoCarron, Clerk. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditubes in the Interior Department, House op Representatives, Monday^ June 5, 1911. The committee having under consideration the investigation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs met at 10.30 a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Catlin. There were also present ex- Commissioner of Indian Affairs Francis E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Robert G. Valentine, Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Fraijk, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, and Thomas Surrama. TESTIMONY OF MR. FRANCIS E. LEUPP. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. Give your full name, Mr. Leupp. Mr. Leupp. Francis E. Leupp. The Chairman. Where is your present residence? Mr. Leupp. The city of Washington. The Chairman. How long have you resided in Washington ? Mr. Leupp. About 25 years. The Chairman. Where was your residence, Mr. Leupp, before coming to Washington ? Mr. Leupp. In Syracuse, N. Y., and in New York City. The Chairman. What was your occupation formerly ? Mr. Leupp. Journalist. The Chairman. In what capacity? Mr. Leupp. As editor of the Syracuse Herald, and before that as assistant editor of the Evening Post of New York, and when I came here I came as correspondent of the New York Evening Post. The Chairman. The Washington correspondent for that paper? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How l^ng did you act in that capacity? Mr. Leupp. Altogether, I suppose, 20 years ; that is, from some time in 1885 until I assumed office on the 1st of January, 1905. The Chairman. What was the office which you assumed then? Mr. Leupp. Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Chairman. Prior to that time what experience, I mean prac- tical or personal experience, had you with Indian affairs in any way ? Mr. Leupp. Well, I had been visiting Indian reservations ever since 1886. I had been studying the Indian question a long time before 8 4 EXPEJSTDITUEES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. that, in my editorial work, and then I began going to Indian reser- vations in California and elsewhere in 1886. and from that tirae on at various times. In 1889 I made one transcontinental trip and saw the Cceur d'Alenes and some other Indians in the Northwest and the Digger Indians of northern California; and then, in 1895, I was among the Utes for a while in Colorado and also visited the Apaches. In 1896 I was at a number of places in the Southwest and also some in the Northwest, in Minnesota and the Dakotas. In 1897 I made another considerable tour. In 1903 I was sent out as a special emissary of the President to investigate some charges made against the acting agent on the Kiowa Eeservation, and the next year I investigated three northern reservations, two of them in Montana. The Chairman. Was that an official investigation? Mr. Leupp. Yes. I was made a special supervisor for the purpose of making these investigations, as in each of these cases it was deemed advisable by the President to have somebody who was not connected with the Government, so that there should be no question of the entire freedom from any influence that could possibly be brought to bear. Mr. George. Was this President Eoosevelt? Mr. Leupp. Yes. •The Chairman. Please state again, Mr. Leupp, the trips you made to reservations in an official way, as the representative of the admin- istration. Mr. Leupp. In 1903 I was on the Kiowa Reservation investigating charges against the agent. Mr. MoNDEnL. In Oklahoma? Mr. Leupp. In Oklahoma. In 1904 I investigated the conditions on the Blackfeet Reservation. Mr. MoNDELL. In Montana? Mr. Leupp. Montana. The Fort Peck Indian Reservation at Pop- lar, Mont. I visited the Nez Perce Reservation, but only took a hasty glance over that. Mr. MoNDELL. Where is that reservation located? Mr. Leupp. In Idaho; and there was one other I visited that year, one in South Dakota — Sisseton. The Chairman. Taking those up seriatim, please state about how much time you spent on each one. Mr. Leupp. I was from the 11th of July until the 1st of September on the Kiowa Reservation in 1903. As to the others, I could not give you the dates offhand, but I think I have the dates in a diary at home. The Chairman. Well, in a general way. Mr. Leupp. It covers, practically, the whole summer. The Chairman. I mean whether you were there a week or a month Mr. Leupp. Oh, yes; I was there, I suppose, three months alto- gether, out in the Indian field. Mr. George. At the various reservations? Mr. Leupp. Yes ; at different ones. I moved about from place to place. Mr. George. The other experiences you had on reservations were eritirely in connection with your newspaper work, were they ? EXPENDirUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 5 Mr. Letjpp. No; the first visits I made to Indian reservations I made purely on account of my personal interest in the Indian. I wanted to see something of the practical working of these things. _ The Chairman. Now, was there anything beyond a purely indi- vidual interest in that ? Were you in any way acting in a representa- tive capacity ? Mr. Letjpp. The visits I spoke of that took place in 1895, 1896, and 1 897 I was acting part of the time in an official capacity and part of the time in a representative capacity for the Indian Rights Associa- tion and also as a member of the Board of Indian Commissioners. The Chairman. Please tell us, Mr. Leupp, what both of those organizations are ; first, the Indian Rights Association ? Mr. Leupp. The Indian Rights Association is an organization formed some time, I think, in the eighties, for the purpose of securing to Indians their rights under the law in those cases where the Govern- ment either could not or was not disposed to help them. That is purely a private enterprise and supported by popular subscription. The Chairman. Is it incorporated? Mr. Lettpp. I think it is ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Who were the officers at that time ? Mr. Leupp. Mr. Philip Garrett, of Philadelphia, was the president, Herbert Welch was the corresponding secretary, and there was a board of managers or directors composed of leading citizens, most of them of Philadelphia. I have forgotten now who they were. The Chairman. I suppose it was necessary that it should have funds to carry on its work. Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Chairman. How were those funds obtained ? Mr. Leupp. By subscriptions among charitable people. The Chairman. Can you mention any of the large subscribers? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I could not. A list of them is published, I think, every year in the report of the association, and those reports are easily accessible. The Chairman. Their report is published by the association itself ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. They have it in the Congressional Library, I think. The Chairman. If I am not mistaken, Mr. J. Pierpont Morgan was prominent in that work? Mr. Leupp. I never heard of him in connection with it. The Chairman. Do you know whether or not he was connected with it? Mr. Leupp. No, sir ; I do not. The Chairman. You have no knowledge on that? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Chairman. Now, the other association which you mentioned; Mr. Leupp. The Board of Indian Commissioners? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Leupp. That is a Government board, for which an appropria- tion is made every year, of late years $4,000, to pay their expenses, purely. No person on it receives any salary. The work is done as a matter of good citizenship. Mr. George. How much is the appropriation ? Mr. Leupp. $4,000, for the expenses. 6 EXPENDITTTBES IN THE INTEJEIIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Catlin. Who makes this appropriation ? Mr. Letjpp. Congress. It always goes in as a part of the Indian appropriation. I think Gen. Grant, when he was President, made the first appointment of that board, and it was made in response to a considerable popular outcry against abuses in the Indian Service at that time, some of which were discovered by Prof. Marsh, of Yale College, when he was in the West. It was proposed then that a board, composed of citizens having only a philanthropic purpose, should stand, as it were, as a buffer between the Indian Office and the public— that is, they would either advise the commissioner or com- plain to the President if they did not think he was doing right, or, on the other hand, if public complaint was made, they would make investigation and report their findings ; and for a number of years the board contained men of a good deal of social and business promi- nence. They used to have one member, at least, and sometimes more, attend every letting of contracts, so as to see that everything was clearly and properly done. They were in the habit of making an annual report, in which they went over all the ground that they had covered during the year. Then, if there was a disturbance on any reservation, one or more members of the board would go out and make an inquiry. The Chahsman. In the newspaper coimections which you had, Mr. Leupp, were you acting as a salaried man throughout, or were you interested as an investor in the newspaper property that you repre- sented ? Mr. Leupp. Those that I represented in Washington I was simply on a salary basis. The Chairman. And as to the others? Mr. Leupp. As to the others, I owned for a time a majority of the stock in the Syracuse Herald, and I sold out in 1885 and came here. The Chairman. In 1885 ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. That was before your interest in Indian affairs? Mr. Leupp. Oh, I was an assistant editor on the Evening Post, an editorial writer in New York, during Mr. William CuUen Bryant's editorship, for the last four years of his life, and there I became very much interested in writing on the Indian question, and then after I came to Washington I had an opportunity to study the thing at first hand. The Chairman. But you were not a part owner of the Post ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Chairman. Now, when were you appointed to the Indian commissionership ? Mr. Leupp. I took office on the 1st of January, 1905. The Presi- dent sent for me in November and asked me if I would accept it. The Chairman. President Roosevelt? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would you mind telling the committee who were your backers, if you had any? Mr. Leupp. I had none, except the President, to my knowledge. I do not know, sir. He told me afterwards that a number of people had come to him as soon as they heard Mr. Jones was going to re- sign and asked him to appoint me, but I do not remember that he told their names, except I think some of the Indian Rights Associa- tion people were among the list. EXPENDITUBEB IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 7 The Chairman. How long did you remain in that office? Mr. Leupp. For four years and nearly six months. • The Chairman. Now, during the time you held the office, Mr. Leupp, please tell the committee how much of the time you spent in the field; that is, how much actual experience you had in the prac- tical workings of reservations and of reservation life. Mr. Leupp. I would go out never later than in May, and I think once or twice I went out in April, and would stay until about the middle of August, and then I would come back to relieve my assist- ant and let him go on his vacation. Mr. Catlin. That is, you went to the Indian reservations? Mr. Leupp. All over the Indian reservations. I hardly slept two nights in the same bed, unless there was something I was specially interested in at one of the reservations. The Chairman. That would be spending generally about how many months in the year? Mr. Leupp. Well, it would be from three and a half to four months. The Chairman. And what reservations were you on for a consid- erable time during your term of office, long enough to observe the workings there? Mr. Leupp. I suppose I spent more time at the schools than any .other. I think I was in Phoenix for a couple of weeks during my last year in office. I must have been at the Sherman Institute, in Riverside, Cal., for 10 days or so, about that same time. I was then engaged in starting the movement for a medical division in the office, giving its entire attention to eradicating some of the epidemic dis- eases among the Indians, and those places seemed to be especially adapted to working out the plans. At the Phoenix school they had special facilities for making a study of those»things, trachoma, espe- cially. Now, as to the others, I suppose my longest stay in any place was three or four or five days. These tours were not for the purpose of investigation. They were in order to get a view of the situation. I wanted to see the condition of the buildings and things of that sort. The Chairman. For the purpose of observation? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; that was all. When it came to an investiga- tion, if I found anything I thought ought to be looked into, when I got back I sent a supervisor out there. The Chairman. When you went into the office did you at that time have a theory, a well-defined scheme, in your mind as to how the Indian Office should be administered? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; quite a definite one in a number of particu- lars. The Chairman. Did you follow that during your administration? Mr. Leupp. I followed it quite steadily. The Chairman. Your trip to the various reservations before you took office enabled you, or, at least, you thought it enabled you, to see what the needs of the Indians were ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And it was on that, was it, that you framed your theory ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To what extent have the various Indian tribes been moved about from one place to another during your observation of or experience with the office? 8 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leupp. Well, during my experience with the office, directly, I do not recall any removals of that kind, except two. One was already in progress when I went in. The Mille Lacs were being removed. They were in Minnesota and they were being gradually moved on to the White Earth Eeservation. That was in progress before I took office. Then there was in Idaho— the names have somewhat faded from my memory, but I think they were the Lemhi Indians, who were removed from the point they were occupying to a place nearer the railroad and more available for farming purposes, where they could get proper irrigation facilities. The Chairman. Had you then and have you yet a theory as to the wisdom or advisability of moving the Indians from one place to another ? Mr. Leupp. I think it is extremely inadvisable, sir, and I have always opposed it, except in the case, for instance, of the Lemhi Indians, where it was to their very decided advantage and they had no special objection to it. I think the less we handle Indians in any way the better. I think they are much better left to their own devices. Mr. George. Did they have any objection ? Mr. Leupp. The Lemhi Indians ? Mr. George. Yes. Mr. Leupp. I think not, except in the case of a few, of course, who felt badly about leaving old homes where they had buried their dead, or something of that kind. Mr. Catlin. How about the first ones you mentioned ? Mr. Leupp. I think the Government was offering them inducements of one kind and another to move over to White Earth. That was something that took place before I came into office, and the law was that they should be moved, and while I felt is was a misfortune, there was nothing to do except to carry it out; but there were no active steps taken then in that direction. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp, when j'ou were in office, or now, if you can speak for the present, to what extent were the Indian tribes occupying land that needed irrigation — that was not productive with- without irrigation? Mr. Leupp. You mean as to the acreage? The Chairman. Well, first, in a general way, as to the proportion, half of them, or more or less than half of them, on land that was not productive without irrigation. Mr. Leupp. I confess my inability to answer that question. The Chairman. Well, pick out, if you can, such tribes as do occupy land that has to be irrigated to be productive. Mr. Leupp. The Shoshones The Chairman. Give the States. Mr. LEUi'p. Wyoming and Idaho; and the Blackfeet in Montana, the Fort Peck Indians in Montana, the Crows in Montana, and I suppose I should say the Northern Cheyennes, also in northern Mon- tana, and practically all of the southwestern tribes. The Chairman. All in Arizona and New Mexico? Mr. Leupp. All in Arizona and New Mexico, I think, have to depend on irrigation entirely. The Chairman. And what tribes, if there are any, live on land that will produce without irrigation? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 9 Mr. Leupp. Well, the Sioux and the Chippewas, two of the very large tribes. They are in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and the two Dakotas. The Chairman. Where land is irrigated by artificial ditches as I understand it what is called intensive farming is usually followed; that is, the farmer lives on a small or comparatively small tract of land, and cultivates it with great care and particularity ? Mr. Leupp. Yes ; or if he is not able to cultivate it with great care, through ignorance of agricultural science, nature in many cases takes care of that for him. For instance, they raise five or six crops of alfalfa down on those southwestern reservations. The Chairman. Does nature plant the alfalfa for him ? . Mr. Leupp. The root once established, it keeps repeating itself. Mr. George. How long will the root last ? Mr. Leupp. I do not know ; for a number of years, because there is no frost, you know, to injure it. Mr. MoNDELL. What was the question? Mr. George. How long will a root last ? Mr. MoNDELL. No one knows exactly. Mr. Leupp. The great difficulty is ever to get rid of it, after you once get it planted. Mr. MoNDELii. The general theory is that it is perhaps a good policy to plow it up every 10 or 12 years, but that is not necessary. Where lands are irrigated for native grasses, of course, very much larger areas are occupied? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. And that is quite frequent on reservations in the newer countries? • Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp, tell the committee, if you please, or tell, at least, those of us who do not understand these things, what you mean by intensified farming — what they mean by it out there. Mr. Leupp. We hear the term very little used in this country, ex- cept in some places in New England. Mr. George. And around the city of New York. Mr. Leupp. Yes. Where it is used chiefly for gardening purposes; but I should say, generally summed up, it is that system which re- turns to the earth as fast as some of the chemical elements are taken out of it in crops— that is, returns something to correspond to that by the raising of another crop which can be plowed under or which itself contributes back to the earth. Would that be your definition, Mr. Mondell? The Chairman. That would be what we call a rotation system. Mr. Leupp. Yes; I should call rotation, generally, intensified cul- ture, in a way. Mr. George. I could make a distinction between intensive and ex- tensive — one being a very intense application of labor to a very small field and the other a very extensive use of labor. In the one case handwork largely and in the other case machine work. Mr. Mondell. I think that is a very fair definition of the general understanding of the term. Mr. George. The Italians had a great number of market gardens around New York when I came from California to New York, up in 10 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Harlem district, which is now covered with brick buildings, and they were intensified farms run mostly by Italians. Mr. MoNDEii. The difference is between the man who tries to irri- gate a section of corn and alfalfa and the man who endeavors, through diversity of crops and rotation, to produce the very highest and best and gi'eatest results from a small acreage, of 10, 20, or 40 acres. The Chairman. To what extent would the character of the crop be diversified in, say, a 10-acre farm under the intensive system of farming? How many different kinds of crops would he have in Arizona, for instance? Mr. Leupp. I do not know just how that would operate. I am not enough of an agriculturist to answer. Mr. Geobge. Would it need the application of fertilizers of any kind? Mr. Leupp. No ; not artificial fertilizers, certainly, and the fertiliz- ing crops, of course, are plowed under. Mr. George. Such as beans? Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Chairman. Are you prepared to say what size, in your judg- ment, the farms or allotments to Indians should be, under such a system, so as to enable a family to live? Mr. Leupp. Well, in the Southwest, where the climate permits Working practically all the year and quick rotation of crops occurs, I think the unit that the agriculturist generally gives is 5 acres, and then sometimes they go larger, 10 acres or 15 acres. The Chairman. Did you have occasion during your administra- tion of the Indian Office to determine the size of those allotments ? Mr. Leupp. Well, only in a way, when some special legislation was before the office, and then I always had to seek advice from e:^- perts, as I made no pretense myself on that line. The Chairman. Do you recall what size you favored or recom- mended ? Mr. Leupp. I remember in one case, I think it was the Yumas, I recommended 5 acres, and in some cases 10 where the land was so situated that it could not all be utilized. The Chairman. Would all of that be susceptible of irrigation? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Ordinarily the Indian allotments of irrigable land were larger than that, Mr. Commissioner? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. They were more frequently 40 acres and in some cases or in frequent cases perhaps 80 acres ? Mr. Leupp. That was farther north on the northern reservation, where the climate is not so favorable. There you have to have the allotments much larger. Mr. George. But because of the favorable climate in Arizona you favored the smaller allotment of 5 acres? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. In doing that you followed the policy of the Eecla- mation Service? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; and in that respect inquired as to what any- body, white man or Indian, could handle. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPARTMENT. 11 Mr. MoNDEiX. The smallest allotment under the Reclamation Serv- ice in my State is 40 acres. I understand that many allotments as small as 10 acres are made in some of the Southwestern States. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. But you favored 6 acres? Mr. Leupp. I am speaking now purely from memory. I should have to look up my data on that point before stating accurately. The Chairman. Mr. Mondell, would all the 40 acres be susceptible of cultivation ? Mr. Mondell. This is intended to be the number of acres of irri- gable land. The Chairman. I mean there would be no mountain or hill or slough or other place in it that could not be cultivated. Mr. Mondell. No. "When the unit is placed at 10, 20, 40, or SO acres, that means that many acres of land which can be irrigated. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp, how could a family of average size — say, husband and wife and four or five children — live off of 5 acres? Mr. Leupp. I think perhaps you have not understood my idea of a unit, which is the amount given to a member of a family. If you had a larger number, say a family of five, you would get 25 acres. The Chairman. Eegardless of the age of the members of the family ? Mr. Leupp. No ; I should say those that were susceptible of doing any work — those that had reached a working age. Mr. Hensley. What are the crops usually raised on these 5-acre allotments ? Mr. Leupp. Alfalfa and various garden crops. Alfalfa is the most profitable crop- for the Indians to raise. The Chairman. The people can not eat alfalfa. Mr. Leupp. No, sir; but they can sell it, and it always commands a very ready market. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Leupp, under the general allotment law, every member of a family is entitled to an allotment, without regard to age ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. Mondell. In other words, the head of the family receives an allotment for all of the minor members? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. George. Would that apply in Montana, 80 acres to each mem- ber of the family, or would the 80 acres cover the entire family? Mr. Mondell. It would be 80 acres for each member. Mr. George. So Mr. Leupp is now talking about a parallel con- dition, but the unit there was only five acres to each member? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; that is my recollection of it. Mr. Mondell. It is simply a difference in the unit, and not in the method of distribution? Mr. Leupp. No. Mr. Catlin. Does that simply include grown people? Mr. Leupp. No; in the cases where any discretion was left to us it applied to the members of the family who were of working age; that is, 6 or 8 years, so they could do weeding and matters of that kind. That would be considered in our discretion. Mr. MoNDEiJ^. And even in the case of others that came along, they were entitled to their allotment ? 12 EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leupp. Yes; if the allotments were not closed at that time. In the case of most of these southwestern tribes, I think the allotment was closed iii every instance after the persons who were allotable had received their allotments. Mr. George. In favoring the 5-acre allotment, did you take into consideration only the climatic conditions ? Mr. Leupp. Climatic and soil conditions. Mr. Geokge. That would seem to be a small allotment if the pro- duce, for instance, was far from the market. Mr. Letjpp. Yes. Mr. George. Cultivation would seem to be a very dilEcult thing if your market was somewhat removed. Mr. Letjpp. But the markets are pretty accessible in the Southwest. Mr. George. That is what I wanted to bring out. The Chairman. Then, Mr. Leupp, as I understand your answers^ if there were seven in the family, as I suggested by illustration a while ago, they would have 35 acres, regardless of the age of the members of the family ? Mr. Leupp. Yes ; if it were done on the unit plan. The Chairman. Well, that is the way it was done, was it not ? Mr. Leupp. That is the way I understood you to ask me — what I have favored. The Chairman. I wanted to get at the facts. Mr. Leupp. I think it was all done on the unit system, as a matter of fact. The Chairman. And the unit was 5 acres in Arizona, was it? Mr. Leupp. That is my recollection. Mr. George. Would a baby in arms get 5 acres ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Cpiairman. What method of elasticity was adopted by which newborn children could get allotments? Is there a common reserve of land somewhere out of which they can be allotted a unit? Mr. Leupp. Only in special cases; that is, the allotment, as it usually has taken place by special legislation, has had a certain amount assigned, and all children born before that day were included in the allotment, and all born after that day were left out. The Chairman. Do you know when that day was with reference to the McDowell reservation? Mr. Leupp. No ; I do not think any day was set in that case. The Chairman. You think it is open yet, there ? Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you as to that. All that matter, you know, took place before I came into the office. The Chairjian. Now, in cultivating small tracts of land, such as these units are, there would not be much opportunity for the emplov- ment of machinery in farming, would there ? Mr. Leupp. Only the very simplest form of machinery. The Chairman. "V\1iat kind was used as a matter of fact, do you know ? Mr. Leupp. Well, plows and harrows. The Chairman. Ordinary 2-horse plows, such as we use in this country ? Mr. Leupp. Yes ; nothing like they have in the Northwest, though. The Chairman. They would not do here in Maryland or Virginia very well, either? •EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOB DEPABTMENT. 13 Mr. Lettpp. No. The Chairman. Do you know of your own knowledge, Mr. Leupp, what the products were on such a farm in addition to alfalfa ? What else did they actually raise? Mr. Letjpp. I should have to look that up. Mr. MoNDELL. They grow com, and always have in the Southwest. The Chairman. My thought was not as to what might be done, but as to what they actually raised, if you know. Mr. Letjpp. In parts, for instance, they have made a success of beets, of Bermuda onions, and of various kinds of fruit vegetables, like melons, but beyond that I should not dare The Chairman (interposing). Does that apply to Arizona? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; and New Mexico. The Chairman. Is that country adapted to sugar-beet growing? Mr. Letjpp. There are parts that can be used for that purpose. The Chairman. Do I understand that the Indians there are capa- ble of planting and cultivating and bringing to maturity and har- vest sugar beets? Mr. Leupp. I can not tell you as to their ability to do it under direction. Mr. Hensley. Are they engaged in it? Mr. Leupp. I can not tell you, but they have been engaged in other parts of the country in that industry. The Chairman. Where? Mr. Leupp. In Montana and in Canada among the Menominee Indians who have gone there. The Chairman. In the way I have indicated, on their own ac- count ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; under direction. The Chairman. For whose benefit? Were they wage earners? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. On their own lands? Mr. Leupp. On the land of somebody else. The Chairman. What was their land being used for ? Mr. Leupp. In many cases simply running to grass or raising stock or something of that kind; raising crops. A rew raised wheat and did very well. The Chairman. Now, is the McDowell Indian Reservation adapted to the work of farming ? How good a farmer is the Indian ? Mr. Leupp. I shall have to ask yOu to give me a chance to refresh my memory; I have forgotten. The Chairman. I would like to get your opinion. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it not a fact that is requires a great deal of nurs- ing and persuasion and a great deal of patience to get the Indians to farm very much anyway? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; except among some of the agricultural tribes. Mr. MoNDELL. Thev raise grass and they will irrigate native meadows until the alfalfa runs out by too much or too little irriga- tion, and they will raise a little com, but it is very difficult to get them to do anything they can not do on horseback or a mowing machine ? Mr. Leupp. Northern ones. I think the southern Indians have taken to agriculture. 14 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. MoNDELL. Some have always done so, but the others have been horsemen. Mr. George. Are these McDowell Indians agriculturally inclined? Mr. Leupp. I saw very little of the McDowell Indians. I was never at their camp but once, and then I went to look into a matter in that section. I think I spent one day there. The Chairman. I gather from you, then, that it is your opinion that the McDowell Indians will work, and that they understand something at least about raising crops? Mr. Ledpp. I should think so, possibly, taking the other Indians in the neighborhood that I have seen as a criterion. The Chairman. For instance? Mr. Leupp. Well, the various Pueblo Tribes, like the Zunis, the Hopis and Taos, and one tribe which is not a Pueblo Tribe; the Navaho in their crude way are pretty good agriculturalists. The Chairman. The McDowell Indians you think are superior as agriculturalists to those you have mentioned? Mr. Leupp. No. I think they are more modern in their methods of farming. The Chairman. What tribe do they really belong to ? Mr. Leupp. The McDowell Indians? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. I can not tell you. The Chairman. Are they Apaches? Mr. Leupp. I suppose they would come nearer the Apaches than any other tribe. Mr. MoNDBLL. I think the doctor might tell us. The Chairman. That is hardly important enough. Mr. MoNDELL. What tribe do you call yourselves? Dr. Montezuma. The Mohave Apaches. The Chairman. I gather from what you have" said that those people would become somewhat attached to a particular place where they lived ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And of course would be opposed to removal from that place ? Mr. Leupp. I suppose they would be, unless they saw that it was profitable. The Chairman. Suppose there was a slight benefit to move to an- other distant place, what, in your judgment, would they do if the op- portunity was given ; would they stay under a little disadvantage or leave the old home to gain a little advantage? Mr. Leupp. I think it would have to be a pretty strong one that would appeal to them. The Chairman. Do you know, as a matter of fact, their mode of life at McDowell? For instance, have they real habitations or do they live in tents? Mr. Leupp. I can not answer that, because I have been there so little. I should judge from what I saw on my way there and back that most of them had a crude covering. Then there were some who would simply have a thatch held by upright sticks, something that was covered for a retiring place, but most of the life was under a thatched roof. The Chairman. Do you know whether they have all adopted the white man's dress ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. 15 Mr. Leupp. I think all those Indians have ; certainly all I have seen. The Chairman. In a general way, have they adopted his habits? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; "with those modifications that would be natu- ral with a tribe coming out of an entirely primitive state. The Chairman. It is clear from what you have said that your judgment would be, unless there was some very good reason for it, that such people should not be moved ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; I should make the reason practically imperative before I would move them. The Chairman. And it would have to be very strong to justify moving such a people? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There is another point that troubles me a lot and that is about the Indian rolls. How are those rolls made up? Mr. Leupp. V^ell, I could only speak in a general way, because we never had occasion to make an original roll, as far as I recall, during my time, but rolls which had been made under previous administra- tions were corrected and revised by us, usually by getting the Indians together. The Chairman. First, what does the roll mean ? Mr. Leupp. The roll purports to give the name of every Indian, his age, as nearly as possible, not only his Indian name, but his Eng- lish name, if he has one, so he can be identified, the number of mem- bers of his family and their ages, and then there are rolls, of course, for various purposes — for special payments that are to be made under treaties — ^but, as a general rule, it is a census of all individuals, that is all. Mr. George. Made by whom? Mr. Leupp. I suppose originally made by inspectors or by special commissions authorized by Congress. Mr. MoNDELL. Formerly, my notion is, that the rolls were largely made up with a view to determining those who were entitled to annuities, and in the old days when the rations were dealt out it was necessary to know, of course, who was entitled to the annuity, and therefore rolls were made up and the parties were given their annuities as they responded to their names at the time the goods and food was handed out. On some of the reservations they used to have a check indicating who the Indian was. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And it indicated what he was entitled to and who were entitled to annuities. Mr. Leupp. Those rolls were continued and revised every time the annuities were distributed or there was any other occasion for calling the Indians together, by each member of the tribe coming forward and submitting to interrogatories as to the increase or decrease in his family. The Chairman. Are they sworn on those occasions? Mr. Leupp. On the one or two occasions that I had anything to do with, I insisted on their being sworn. I do not think, as a rule, they are. The Chairman. You made no new rolls, but you did reconstruct or correct the old ones ? Mr. Leupp. Correct them ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Who does the actual work? Did you personally attend to it or did you designate some one to do it ? 16 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leffp. I would designate an inspector. If an inspector were necessary in order to supervise a payment, I would have him revise the rolls when making the payment. Mr. MoNDELL. It is also true that the rolls are subject to the action of the Indian council ? Mr. Letjpp. Yes, sir; always with the consent of the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. MoNDELL. I understand that the Indians in council adopt or recognize some one who has not been on the rolls as a member of the tribe? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To what extent is the making or correcting of the rolls left to the Indians themselves? Mr. Letjpp. I do not think the practice has been uniform. I could tell you simply about my own general plan of doing it. The Chairman. Please do that. Mr. Leupp. If there were any question about the persons who be- longed on a roll, I always went to the Indians themselves, met them in council, or let the old people of the tribe pass their judgment on who were entitled to belong there. If the Indian council had adopted anybody from the outside and that had been approved by the Secretary, that settled that. When it came to identifying persons as former members of the tribe who had gone away for a time and come back, we had to depend upon the old people for remembering the man, his ancestry, the woman he married, and so forth. The Chairman. Anyone who gets on the roll is entitled to all the rights of any other Indian? Mr. Leupp. As a general proposition; yes, sir. The Chairman. And if a white man got on the roll, he would be entitled to an allotment as an Indian? Mr. Leupp. There would come up a question The Chairman (interposing). If he got on the roll, would it mat- ter how he got on? Mr. Leupp. I do not suppose it would. I was going to make one modification. Among the Kiowas, and I think among the Co- manches, there were one or two white persons who had commended themselves to their good graces, by various acts of kindness, and so forth, and the Indians volunteered the request that this man might come in for a share of land or that one for a share of the annuity. They would not get the whole series of benefits, the same as the Indians, but the Indians themselves would divide with them. The Chairman. How would the required limitation be kept or made? Mr. Leupp. I suppose it would be entered on the roll against the person's name. The Ciiaiejian. With his name would go this limitation that he did not get all the rights? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The CiiAiR^MAN. As getting on the roll gives a person all the rights of an Indian usually, I suppose there is a good deal of an efTort made to get on the roll by those not entitled to it ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. At one time there was a tremendous pres- sure. The Chairman. To what extent are persons able to get on the rolls in a surreptitious way ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 17 Mr. Leupp. I doubt if very many would be found outside of the Indian Territory. There, Ithink, there was a great deal of it. The Chairman. What is the status of a white man who marries a person of Indian blood? Mr. Leupp. As a rule, the rules of the tribe recognize him as allied to the tribe. He would not come in, as a rule, for an allotment, Jjut his children of that marriage would. He would be regarded as a member of that tribe for ordinary purposes. The Chairman. What I want to get at particularly is this : As the Indians are the owners of this property and the ones most inter- ested and others not Indians and who are not entitled to a share would like to get a share, to what extent do the Indians control the question of admission to the rolls? Mr. Leupp. I can only speak for the period that I was in office, and then it was uniformly required that the Indians should pass favor- ably upon them. The Chairman. How do they do that ; what is the modus operandi ? Mr. Leupp. They have a council meeting and a record of the coun- cil is kept and forwarded here, and then it is passed up to the Secre- tary of the Interior for his approval or disapproval. The Chairman. What is the method of calling a council so as to make it valid? Mr. Leupp. The Indians apply to the agent and the agent calls the council. In some cases it has been ordered from Washington that an inspector should call a council for the consideration of certain business. The Chairman. Can he call the council of his own motion, or must the Indians take the initiative? Mr. Leupp. I think he can call it on his own motion. The Chairman. If the Indians want a council, is there any way by which they can compel him to call it, whether he wishes to or not ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I should say not. I think in that respect his judgment would govern. Mr. MoNDELL. You do not recall any case where any considerable number of Indians wanted it called that it was not called ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. I was making as guarded an answer as I could to the question. I remember among the Klamaths there was a question at one time of calling the council — the exact facts are not in my mind — but there were two factions very bitterly at work. One faction insisted that there was no way of determining their numerical strength and one faction insisted upon having a council. The ad- visability of granting that request was looked into and denied, simply because it was a quarrel. Mr. George. What tribe was that? Mr. Leupp. The Klamaths. Mr. George. While you were in office ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you mean to say in your answer to Mr. Mon- dell that there were no cases where the Indians wanted to have a council and the agent interfered to prevent it ? Mr. Leupp. So far as I know, I do not recall any one. The Chairman. What is the extent of your knowledge, might there be many cases without your knowing them ? 98240— No. 1—11 2 18 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leupp. I do not know of any. The Chairman. Not any ? Mr. Leupp. Some might have occurred which I can not recall, i would not want to make a positive assertion. Mr. George. Would there be any record the agent would make showing that he had refused ? Sir. Leupp. Assuredly; unless he was entirely negligent of his duties. The Chairman. Who would make the record? Mr. Leupp. The agent would send the report to the office. The Chairman. Would it not be for him to say whether or not he should make a report? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The same way that he might steal the In- dian's money. There are things which, of course, we have to watch carefully. Mr. George. If he refused and made no record, your office, when you were in office, would not have known anything about it ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; except some complaint came in from some of the Indians. Mr. Hensley. When a white man is successful in ingratiating him- self into the confidence of the Indians and the council passes upon him and are willing to have him go on the roll, that does not com- plete it? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; it has to be approved by the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Hensley. Is it an invariable rule that the Secretary will ap- prove the action of the council ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir ; I think it has been refused repeatedly. Mr. MoNDELL. Outside of the Indian Territory the adoption of a white man into a tribe is an exceedingly rare thing ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; very rare. Mr. MoNDELL. So very rare that in my general knowledge of the Indians I only recall one or two cases. You do not recall any ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. Once or twice there have been persons legis- lated onto the rolls. Mr. George. By whom? Mr. Leupp. By Congress. Mr. Hensley. For some special service rendered ? Mr. Leupp. That must be assumed, I suppose. Mr. George. During your term of office? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. Mr. George. Before or since? Mr. Leupp. Before, so far as I know. Mr. George. Do you know what cases those were? Mr. Leupp. There was one case that we investigated with regard to the Kiowas, and I think there were some persons given what are known as " head rights," special rights as the heads of families, all of whom were white men, six or seven. Mr. George. The heads or the whole families ? Mr. Leupp. The rest of the family were Indians and his wife an Indian woman. _ Mr. MoNDELL. The white man in that case was given an annuity right ? Mr. Leupp. I think he was given a land right. I suppose he would come in for the annuity also ; I have forgotten. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 19 The Chairman. Was there any claim on his part that he had In- dian blood? Mr. Lf.upp. Not anything in the case I have in mind. The Chairman. It was conceded that he was a pure Caucasian ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. No cases of that sort on this reservation of which we are speaking — the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Letjpp. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. The Chairman. After the roll is made up, how often is that changed by the admission of new names to it? Mr. Leupp. That depends on the tribe and the circumstances under which the admissions are made. The admission of new names is done through new births in the family. The Chairman. What is the modus operandi for adding those names ? Mr. Leupp. In the first place, there is a tentative addition to the rolls made when the Indian police, who are scouring the reservation all the timOj report that there has been a birth in such and such a family, stating the sex and other circumstances. They also report the deaths in that way. A memorandum is made at the agency and when the tribe is called together again for a payment The Chairman (interposing). By whom? Mr. Leupp. By the inspector for the purpose of making a payment of annuities or anything of that kind, and if the roll is still open, it has not been summarily checked by legislative operation, the parents as they come forward are asked about the increase in their family and the deaths, and any child that has been born in the interval since the last payment goes on the roll, if there is no objection made. The chief usually sits at the end of the pay table and a lot of old men and women sit around. If they think anything is going wrong The Chairman (interposing). Do they understand it? Mr. Leupp. It is all done through an interpreter. The Indians themselves speak their native language and the interpreter interprets. The Chairman. Is the interpreter usually an Indian or a white man ? Mr. Leupp. In most cases he is a mixed-blood, but sometimes a full-blood who has gone to school. They acquire remarkable facility. Then, the deaths are reported in the same way, and in the case of anyone who has died his name remains on the pay roll for the pay- ment following his death — that is for the benefit of his family — and after that his name is dropped, but the newcomers go on at that time. The Chairman. So it is largely discretionary with the inspector or agent there whether or not a new name shall go on ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. It is discretionary, but the discretion is very rarely exercised. Mr. Mondell. He has no discretion in the matter of births? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The chairman's question referred to cheat- ing, for instance, by the Indians, if they pretended that they had a birth that had not occurred. The Chairman. Could an inspector have any personal interest one way or the other ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; he could. The Chairman. What might it be ? Mr. Leupp. The bribe of a person. The Chairman. That is, if some one should induce him to un- justly put a name on the roll ? 20 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Catlin. In case a death is reported, his name is taken on the roll? Mr. Letjpp. The payment is made to that person's representative at that particular time, and then his name is dropped. The Chairman. Apropos of Mr. Catlin's question, please tell the committee the procedure in case of death— that is, with reference to taking a name oS the roll. Mr. Leupp. Well, just suppose a case. Suppose the Indians are receiving an annuity payment, and they come in for that purpose, and a m_ember of the family is called up arid questioned, " How many have you in your family ? '^' " Four persons." " Have you had any deaths since the last time? You are down here for five." "Yes; I lost a child." " What child was it ? " " The child 5 years old," or " So high," or whatever way they describe the child. Then, if the chief, who is sitting at the pay table, or any of the responsible mem- bers of the tribe, object and say that the person is not dead, why, of course, that would be taken up and investigated separately; but otherwise it is accepted, because a death counts against the Indian, and therefore there would be no object in the Indian doing so. They want to have the families as large as possible. The Chairman. What becomes of the allotment in case of death ? Mr. Leupp. If all the forms have been fully complied with and the patent issued, it passes to the heirs of the decedent. The Chairman. If those requirements have not been complied with, then what? Mr. Leupp. Then, I suppose, it would require special legislation. Unless the patent has issued there would have to be some special action taken. The Chairman. And if no special action were taken, what would be the status of the allotment ? Mr. Leupp. It would then pass back into the general lands of the tribe. The Chairman. Is there no other method of ascertaining and keeping a record of deaths than the one you have given ? Mr. Leupp. It is the only one I recall at the present time. Mr. MoNDELL. You have the reports of the police ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And also the reports of your agency physician? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. As to births and deaths? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And then you have the benefit of that wonderful amount of public talk that goes about all the reservations ? Mr. Leupp. That is one thing that helps the police. Mr. MoNDELL. There is more general conversation than at any ladies' sewing circle you ever heard about. Mr. George. How many tribal tongues do you speak? Mr. Leupp. Only my own. The Chairman. What record is made of deaths when they are ascertained, and in that connection what disposition is made of the dead Indian's allotment ? Mr. Leupp. Well, of course, as soon as an Indian dies the news is transmitted to the Indian OiHce and if he is an allottee the question is submitted to the heirs whether they w^nt to hold onto the land or EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 21 have it sold for their benefit. That is done under a law passed in 1902. If the heirs decide, as they usually do, that they prefer to have it sold, then the Secretary instructs the agent to advertise the land for sale and it is sold to the highest bidder, sealed bids, and they are opened at a certain time publicly and all those interested are invited to be present. The Chairman. I assume, Mr. Leup^, that it is not practicable, if possible, for the Indian Commissioner himself to f ollov? those details ? Mr. Leupp. Not in all particulars ; no, sir. The Chairman. And I take it that it is the exception rather than the rule when he does know about them personally ? Mr.'LETjpp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. "Who are the persons in the office who have actual practical knowledge of the facts ? Mr. Leupp. Under our old system, which I think Mr. Valentine has changed in some particulars, there was a land division that handled all that work. The Chairman. You think the same policy is not pursued ? Mr. Leupp. I do not know. Mr. Valentine has made a number of improvements on my organization. The Chairman. With reference to making the roll and with ref- erence to keeping it up adding to it and taking from it as required by the circumstances, does the plan which was pursued when you were commissioner meet your approval or do yOu think there should be some changes made in it ? Mr. Leupp. Speaking offhand, Mr. Chairman, I, of course, saw difficulties that I wished I could remedy from time to time. I wished I could find some way of getting more direct evidence of a good many of these things than I did, but the machinery was lacking, as I saw it, and I had to do the best I could with the material at hand. The Chairman. Are there any suggestions you could make that you think would result in a betterment of the service ? Mr. Leupp. In regard to what? The Chairman. In regard to keeping the rolls right. Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I do not see any way in which that could be handled. One thing I noticed the second year I was in office, I think, and I do not know but what it is kept up still, that is the use the thumb-print scheme. I think the courts are now quite generally accepting the thumb prints as evidence. The Indians, of course, as a rule, can not read or write and anything that they want to communi- cate they have to trust to somebody else to put into writing for them, and then they make a cross-mark, and there is an opportunity always for cheating on the part of whoever takes the dictation, but the use of the thumb print brings the Indian face to face, it might be said, with the authorities to whom this communication is going, and if at every payment made to the Indians or every time an allotment is made and the Indians accept it there were a scheme of that kind in addition to writing in his name, I think that would be a very excel- lent thing. I do not know but what that is practised now ; I am not sure about that. The Chairman. Would the scheme that exists in society outside the reservation of requiring parties to report births and deaths work on the reservations? Mr. Leupp. Indians are very desirous of reporting births, as a rule, because that increases their families and entitles them to more. 22 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Is there any requirement on them to report births .• Mr. Leupp. I do not think" there is any general requirement. On some of the reservations, before I went out of office, I made the resi- dent physicians officers and endowed them with certain powers to keep the reservations sanitary, requiring the Indians to clean up parts of their homes. Mr. George. All these physicians are health officers ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; as a general rule, and incidentally, of course, knowledge of deaths that occur would come to them, and when a death is reported by a physician in that way it is considered prac- tically a settled matter. The Chairman. But my question was to impose upon the Indian, the head of the family or some one, the duty of reporting to some authority when a death occurred? Mr. Letjpp. With the less civilized tribes of Indians that would be practically impossible. With the more civilized, that is done under the system that I speak of. Mr. MoNDEii. Outside of Oklahoma, where the matter of rolls is largely a matter of legislation, have you heard of any serious com- plaint with regard to Indian rolls, as to parties being on the rolls who were not so entitled or those not being stricken from the rolls who had died or who had lost their rights? Mr. Leupp. Not from any responsible source. Mr. MoNDELL. As a matter of fact, the present practice has worked very well? Mr. Leupp. It appears to have worked well. The Chairman. You answered that question on the theory that no complaint reached you? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you make any affirmative investigation to find out whether or not it actually worked well ? Mr. Leupp. Whenever there was any rumor or anything of that sort we always investigated it. The Chairman. A rumor from the Indians? Mr. Leupp. Yes. sir ; if they came from the Indians. In the case of offic'als or those outside, as in this matter of the Kiowas, I investi- gated the complaint. They come generally from persons outside who feel aggrieved in some way and in some cases from the Indians also. We made a very thorough investigation. Mr. George. Do you remember anj^ complaints that came otherwise during your administration ? Mr. Leupp. During my administration some complaint was made with regard to the Crow Eoservation. Mr. George. Not in the McDowell reservation ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. They may have come into the office and gone through some other officer there without reaching me. Mr. George. The officials here? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Wliat has been the practice of the bureau where d complaint reached the bureau, if they ever do, from the Indian him- self, where the inspector or agent or white man in charge is opposed to an investigation; that is, to what extent did you listen to the com- plaint of the Indian contradicted by the white man in charge? Mr. Leupp. If it was simply a bare contradiction, it was alwnys investigated; but if the Indian should make a complaint which EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 23 could be disposed of directly from the record, of course the case was made up and returned to him. The Chairman. And investigated there? Mr. Leupp. If there was anything to investigate; but in many cases the Indian would be misled. I assume that he would not do the thing right out of hand, but he would suppose that something wrong was being done through his failure to understand how the business was transacted, and when the matter was looked up the record would show the impossibility of the complaint being made. We never con- sidered it necessary to go through those cases. The Chairman. You Avould go to the record for information? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But the record might fiave been made by the very persons complained of ? Mr. Leupp. We would investigate the case from the bottom. The Chairman. Have you at any time that you remember of made such an investigation and found that there was cause for investi- gation ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you recall any such case? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. There may have been some, but I can not recall them at present. The Chairman. To what extent is the Indian under the control of the white man placed over him ; that is, to what extent is he at liberty to complain without detriment to his own interest? Mr. Leupp. That is an individual matter. It depends entirely on the agent. If the agent is of a tyrannical disposition he has a tre- mendous power. The Chairman. Tell us how he might wield such power. Mr. Leupp. In a dozen different ways. He could lock the In- dians up. The Chairman. Put them in prison? Mr. Leupp. In the lock-up. The Chairman. That is the prison? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. He could have Indians who did not belong on the reservation put off. I am not sure, but I think he could put them off if they did belong there if they were mischief-makers. The Chairman. Then, for a whim on his part he might lock an Indian up and the Indian would have no redress ? Mr. Leupp. That has been the custom ; there is no doubt about that. Mr. George. The agent is the judge? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; necessarily. Mr. MoNDELL. You are speaking of temporary arrests? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long might such an imprisonment last? Mr. Leupp. There have been cases where Indians have been locked up for weeks. The Chairman. I would not say that was temporary. Mr. Leupp. I think that was where an Indian had been murder- ously disposed. The Chairman. And that was for the agent to judge and de- termine ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. They have a court of Indian offenses made up of Indians, over whom the agent, of course, is still more or less supreme. He is usually the person who recommends the judges. 24 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chaieman. Do you think of any other illustration at this time going to show the tremendous poM'er the agent wields over the individual Indian, besides the right to arbitrarily and even un- justly imprison him? Mr. Leupp. Expulsion. Mr. Hensley. To what extent? Mr. Xetjpp. I can not recall any case now, but there have been Indians turned off and told to go about their business. The Chairman. Do you thmk of any other ' illustration of the power an agent wields over the individual Indian ? Mr. Leupp. No ; I do not recall any cases that have actually come before me. The Chairman. What is 4he effect in actual practice with reference to the Indian speaking freely, when the result of his complaint is bound to be adverse to the wishes of the agent ? Mr. Leupp. They never have shown any hesitancy when they came to me, in the presence of the agent or anyone else. The Chairman. Here in Washington? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; in the field. If I happened to be at a place and the Indians said they wanted to talk, I always talked with them, and then the agent would be present or not just as he chose, and I always encouraged the Indians to speak out and they all did. The Chairman. When you were the head of the bureau ? Mr. Leupp. As well as when I was doing special investigation work. Mr. George. Supposing you were not there and they still had this grievance, they would be subject to the wrath of the agent if they did speak out in his presence ? Mr. Leupp. I suppose like any other human being. Mr. George (continuing). Subject to extradition or imprisonment for weeks at a time? Mr. Leupp. That is a question I do not think you could answer categorically. An agent if he had a tyrannical disposition could run things at his agencj^ practically to suit himself. That is one of the misfortunes of the situation. Mr. George. He is the doctor? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; but he is always subject to being confronted by the Indian Office. Mr. George. But if the Indian Office does not know ? Mr. Leupp. Then it could not interfere. Mr. George. What likelihood is there of the Indian Office knowing, if the information must come either from an outside source or from the agent himself? Mr. Leupp. I can only say this, that I have had agents. repeatedly send m to me complaints of Indians, and they would say at the bot- tom, " I do not think very much of this complaint," or, " This man has entirely misunderstood the situation," or whatever it mio-ht be and make his own indorsement. t^ > Mr. George. But there remains still the power on the part of the agent to suppress the whole matter ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. He may have heard complaints, he may have impris- oned Indians, and he may have suppressed the whole matter ? Mr. Leupp. With regard to the suppression of the whole matter there was one rule when an Indian came to me and made a complaint— EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. 25 I always said, " Make your complaint in duplicate, give one to the agent, who is the official here, and send one direct to me, right through the mail, and then I will know what is coming into the of- fice." That was repeatedly done. Mr. George. That is the case of the Indian who does complain to Washington ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Geohge. He may have been punished and cowed and nothing come to the office? Mr. Leupp. That is true; just the same with the Indian as with a white man. Mr. George. An unscrupulous agent, who, for his own account, whatever it might be, or because of the tyranny of his nature might do something and the office here not know of it ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; but I want to say that that is one of the things we hear complained of all the time from the workmen that their bosses are tyrannical, in just the same way. Mr. George. They still have the right to leave off work or strike, but the Indian might get deported or thrown into jail? Mr. Leupp. He might be thrown into jail; there is more chance of that than being deported. Mr. Catlin. I understood you to say that you had received com- plaints of such tyranny ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; and they were investigated. Mr. Hensley. What was the result? Mr. Leupp. In some cases the agent was disciplined. Mr. Hensley. Did it result in discharge ? Mr. Leupp. My recollection is The Chairman (interposing). Can you recall any case? Mr. Leupp. I can not. I would have to look them up. I know that from one cause or another I had let out forty-odd people. The Chairman. In cases like this? Mr. Leijpp. Agents, superintendents, and people of that sort in responsible positions. Mr. Mondell. Do the supervisors visit the reservations quite fre- quently ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. And, of course, they are known to the Indians as men to whom they can talk? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Then, distributed around every Indian reservation there are more or less half-breeds and squaw men and the general source of information, so that it would be a very extraordinary con- dition indeed of anything very serious occurring without somebody hearing of it? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How does the Indian know that he may talk freely with the supervisor ? The conduct of the white man has hardly led him to that belief. Mr. Leupp. He has a good deal of faith in the Government and anybody that the Indian knows is a Government officer coming from Washington. The Chairman. Would he not naturally think that the agent, being a white man, would be much closer in touch with the supervisor than he ? 26 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Letjpp. I do not think that deters very many from making conmlaints. i/Lc. George. But does not the power of the agent remain after the supervisor is gone? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. I am not saying that the Indian Office en- courages locking up people in jail or anjd^hing of that sort. 1 am just answering your question. That is within the possibility or an agent exercising authority. . Mr. Mondell. The Indians are always aware of the Indians' Rights Association and other people who are back of them ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. That is quite a safeguard? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And they report to them? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Then there is another charitable organiza- tion, the Women's National Indian Association. Mr. Geoege. Is there any feeling among the Indians corresponding to the feeling among the poorer people of our cities who are helped by the charitable organizations — feeling of contempt? Mr. Leupp. No; I do not think so. I think they regard these associations as organized for their benefit, and I do not think they have any feeling against them in the world. Mr. George. Do they feel that these organizations are usually against them in any way? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; not at all. The Chaiejian. Can you recall any specific instance in which the Indian Rights' Association or the Women's National Indian Associa- tion or any of these quasi charitable institutions have brought to the attention of the department wrongs to which the Indians were sub- jected; can you recall a single instance of that character? Mr. Leupp. I do not recall any during my term that were initiated by the Indian Rights Association, but some in which the Indian Rights Association worked cojointly with us. For instance, there was an agent on the Standing Rock "Reservation in North and South Dakota ; it extends into the two States. I think the Indian Rights Association made complaint to me about this man not being a man of very good character; his language was bad, and he set a bad example to the Indians. He was very profane and dissolute in his way of discussing matters, and in the meantime I had made a dis- covery from another source that this man was playing into the hands of a contractor; in fact, he had taken orders from the con- tractor, as nearly as I could find out. I did not have absolute evi- dence, but that was satisfactory to me, and that man was dropped on the evidence I had. I considered it sufficient. There was a place where the Indian Rights Association were going for the same man on a different ground. They also complained that he kept trophies of arms, swords, and various things in his office, and that the Indians were very reluctant in doing business with him for fear of what he might do if he got angrj'. There was another agent on one of the Sioux Reservations. I can not recall, without going back to my correspondence, just which one it was. He was dishonest or tricky. We never were able to get just the kind of evidence to convict him in court, but it was sufficient to EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPARTMENT. 27 convince any sensible man that the man was crooked. He was c[uite a powerful politician in his neighborhood. The Indian Eights Association conducted an investigation at the same time that we did, and I asked the agent of the association to give us such assist- ance as he could, and he did. The man was " fired." Mr. MoNDELL. During your term of office did you have any eases brought to your attention where any Indian had suffered any serious injury or personal injustice or personal ill treatment of a serious character by the actions of the agent? Mr. Leupp. I do not recall a case of that kind at the moment. Mr. MoNDELL. If there had been anything of that sort at all, a number of them, you would have heard of it ? Mr. Letipp. Any considerable number ; but there may have been some cases here and there. The Chairman. Out of it all I get the impression that the agent has absolute power to crush any Indian on his reservation or under his control ? Mr. Leupp. I will tell you, Mr. Chairman, it works out about in this way : That man is placed there presumptively because he is honest and has an interest in the Indians and is a good executive. Of course, it requires some pretty positive proof to the contrary to unseat him. Now, they are a long distance removed from the center of civilization on most of these reservations. The grand juries, in the case of an Indian offense, are very loath to take up cases on Indian testimony, and particularly in a case where an Indian complains against another Indian, or an Indian is complaining against a white man. They say : " Well, this fellow is discontented and grouchy ; it probably does not amount to very much; hardly worth spending the county s money." That makes it necessary, if you are going to have any order at all and not have the reservation simply anarchistic, to have somebody in charge who is capable of handling a case at its crucial stage. You give the lawless people on a reservation the idea that they can do about what they want and that the agent's hands are tied, and there is no safety for anybody. They will not only SAvoop down on an Indian neighbor, but they will murder a man who is not doing as they think he should. Of course, you must remember that in many of the tribes they are still in a stage of semibarbarism or entire barbarism, and you have got to handle those cases with something which will produce, as nearly as you can get it, prompt justice. Now, the danger of limiting an agent's power beyond a reasonable point is that the good Indian would soon be overrun by the bad In- dian. The good Indian will go ahead and keep the peace and do what he has to do decently, and simply that, if nothing else, would make the Indian Office very loath to encourage the idea among the lawless men that they can do what they please. Therefore an agent is primarily given a pretty broad hand. Then, if he exhausts his common sense, with a knowledge of all the facts, and disregards the authority that he ought to exercise, he is brought to book for it very promptly, and sometimes he is dismissed. Mr. Henslet. What are the essential qualifications of an applicant for a place like inspector ? Mr. Leupp. He as supposed to be a man of good, practical judg- ment. If he is a lawyer by profession, so much the better. If he knows the Indians, so much the better. I do not think there has been any rule of that kind laid down for the inspecting officers except 28 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. that during my administration I would choose them from inside ot the service, for the purpose of getting those who had come directly in contact with the Indians and had made a good record there. Mr. MoNDELL. I think he had more in mind the agents, or super- intendents, as they are now called. Mr. Hensley. The men on the reservation. Mr. Leupp. Of course in times past that was greatly abused by the appointment of persons for political reasons. They would be recom- mended with a long string of indorsements in the usual fashion and carried to the President, and the President, after looking over the indorsements of all the applicants, would make a selection and send it to the Senate. .... Mr. Henslet. And very often it would depend on his activities in politics ? Mr. Leupp. I suppose so. Mr. George. With this absolute power, he might have a motive other than an honest one ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; it was frequently proved that he had. Mr. George. What could that motive be? Mr. Leupp. A dozen things. He might cheat the Indians out of their payments. He might make a recommendation in the case of an Indian who was trying to sell his allotment ; he might make a recom- mendation that the land be sold at a certain figure, when he would be getting a side bribe. Mr. MoNDELL. Most of the agents are civil-service men? Mr. Leupp. I am speaking now of the original agents. Xow they are under the civil-service rules altogether. There was a law passed which authorized the Secretary of the Interior, when satisfied that the interests of the Indians would be better conserved by having an agency or any part of it put under a bonded superintendent, one of those persons might be chosen through the Civil Service Commission, which made it a little easier to put that law into force. That was, an agent, if he possessed the qualifications for a bonded superin- tendent, could be made superintendent of the educational interests on the reservation and be put in the classified service ; but, of course, when he dropped out by death, resignation, or removal his successor must be chosen from within the civil service or by competitive examination. Mr. MoNDELL. Then, at one time, not very far back, a considerable number of the agents were Army officers? Mr. Leupp. In the seventies. Mr. MoNDELL. A little prior to your time ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. You had some Army officers as agents as late as 1900 and 1905? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And probably have some now ? Mr. Leupp. I do not know. Mr. Valentine. There is one left. Mr. Mondell. There were quite a number? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Your new bonded-superintendent system followed the system of appointing Army officers largely? Mr. Leupp. It followed the political agents rather than the Army officers. The Army officers were only put in charge when the condi- tions on the reservation were such as needed strict discipline. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 29 Mr. Catlin. And the political agent is a thing of the past? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And an Army officer still exists? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And during your time? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. In certain emergencies he was a very useful man. Mr. George. When was the bond introduced? Mr. Leupp. Of the superintendents? Mr. George. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. That must have been in the early days of the McKinley administration. Mr. George. In 1900? Mr. Leupp. Earlier than that. Do you recall the date of that law, Mr. Mondell? Mr. Mondell. No, sir. Mr. George. Was it in operation during your regime ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. To what extent do the agents act under bond ? Mr. Leupp. You mean if he was turned into a superintendent and put into the classified service? Mr. George. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. I think I left in office one military officer and one man who had been appointed in the old way. There was something spe- cial which applied to his case which could not be changed. Mr. George. I do not mean generally, but what was the size of the bond? Mr. Leupp. That differed with the circumstances, according to the amount that the man had to take care of. Mr. George. To cover any dishonesty ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; and general malfeasance in office. Mr. George. How large a bond was it usually? Mr. Leupp. They run all the way from $10,000 up to $80,000 a year. How large was the bond of Mr. Kelsey ? , Mr. Valentine. $300,000. Mr. George. Could any scheme of dishonesty, suppose it was a scheme, exceed the size of the bond? Mr. Leupp. It would have to be a very tremendous one. Mr. George. In the case of this agent, do you remember what the size of the bond was? Mr. Leupp. No ; but I feel certain it was not a large one. Mr. George. A small one? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. What would you call a small one ? Mr. Leupp. $10,000 or $15,000. Mr. George. To cover all dishonesty and malfeasance in office gen- erally with the absolute power that was there given, do you think that a bond of $10,000 against any malfeasance would be sufficient to protect the Indians? Mr. Leupp. In all general probability. Mr. George. Has the bond ever been called upon in the case of any of these officers ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; that has been the case. My recollection is that the bond of the former agent of the Osages — he had to give a large bond, and I think the bondsmen were held responsible there, 30 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. In one case I not only dropped the man out, but put the evidence in the hands of the district attorney, and I think the district attorney is proceeding against his bond, besides having him indicted. Mr. George. Are they personal bonds or bonds of a bonding com- panv ? Mr. Leupp. Now we call for bonds of a bonding company. Mr. George. Thev are preferred ? . i. ii, Mr. Leupp. Yes,* sir; the old personal bonds were subject to the men dying. Mr. George. What companies? Mr. Leupp. Companies approved by the Department of Justice. Mr. George. Here in Washington? Mr. Leupp. Any company that passes muster there. Mr. George. Usually in Washington? Mr. Leupp. I suppose all of them have agencies here. There is one in Baltimore. Mr. George. But in your time ? Mr. Leupp. I am speaking of my time. I can not tell from mem- ory; I should have to look that up. All these bonding companies were very carefully looked into before any steps were taken, and if _ one ever defaulted we ruled it absolutely out. Mr. Catlin. From your experience, you think it is necessary to give these agents this arbitrary power? Mr. Leupp. I should not call it arbitrary. Mr. Oatlin. The power they have? Mr. Leupp. I should think it could be limited in some way, but it would be difficult to say where I would put the limit ; it would have to be carefully studied. The Chairman. Coming back to my last question, you did not give a direct answer, but explained why it was, my question being that an agent had absolute power to crush the individual Indian, and you explained why it was necessary, but you did not give a direct answer. Mr. MoNDELiJ. Did I understand you to say that it was your opin- ion that an agent under the present system has absolute power to crush the Indians? Mr. Leupp. No, sir ; I would not put it that strong. The Chairman. Well, what do you say ? Mr. Leupp. He could dominate and terrorize an Indian. The Chairman. And make his life miserable? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; but I think the Indian would find some way to get at his friends outside to protect him from being crushed. The Chairman. Does the Indian know that to be so? Mr. Leupp. I presume so, from the universality of the complaints. The Chairman. That being so, would not the Indian, if he be like an ordinary white man in any degree, be willing to submit to the dictation and will of the agent? Mr. Leupp. I suppose a good many Indians do that. The Chairman. And remain silent and only speak as the agent wanted him to speak ? Mr. Leupp. I think that has been unquestionably done in a wood many cases. The CHAiR:tfAN. There is one further question with reference to the allotment of a dead Indian that was not patented at the time of the death. Have any scandals that you know of arisen out of that EXPENDITUEBS IN THE INTERIOB DEPARTMENT. 31 Situation; have you heard of any case where an improper use was made of that allotment? Mr. Leupp. I never heard of any where that use was made. The Chairman. Can you see in that situation an opportunity where the agent acting for someone else might make an improper use ? Mr. Leupp. I can see how he might make an effort; but I think, with constant overhauling that these things have it would be out of the question for him to carry it through successfully. The Chairman. Suppose the case of an Indian who had died and his death was not reported, and that he was used as a sort of grantee or grantor? Mr. Leupp. Well, you are supposing the case of an Indian who has no representatives ? The Chairman. There are many such? Mr. Leupp. Not many. The Chairman. If he had representatives, what rights could they assert if the agent used this tremendous power ? Mr. Leupp. I do not think there is any question about their rights. The Chairman. How could they ? Mr. Leupp. Appeal to the Indian Office. The Chairman. How ? Mr. Leupp. By writing direct, getting any friend to write, and at those reservations there is no end of lawyers on the lookout for clients of that sort. Mr. MoNDBLL. And it is also true that at most of the reservations there are denominational schools? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And the Indians always understand that the people around these schools are their friends and willing to take any com- plaints they have to the authorities? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; I think they have a great deal of faith in the missionaries. Mr. George. Does the agent have any influence whatever over the denominational schools ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; except if the superintendent of a denomina- tional school gets into a quarrel with the agent it is a tug of war. Mr. George. Can the agent make it uncomfortable for the denomi- national school people? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir ; the head of a denominational school would be just as subject to expulsion from the reservation as anybody else. Mr. George. So if the head of a denominational school took up the complaint of an Indian he would be subject to the same kind of influence from the agent who wished to smother him? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; but I think that is highly improbable, be- cause we have always found that the missionaries stand very well by the Indians. Mr. George. You admit that there have been many missionaries in many parts of the world who have sold the unfortunate people out ? Mr. Leupp. I know there have been black sheep. The Chairman. And very many missionaries would choose the lesser evil and bear with the tyranny of the agent rather than get into a row? Mr. Leupp. I think there have been a few cases probably of that kind, but most of the missionaries feel that they are well supported outside. I have known missionaries to make an investigation them- 32 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPARTMENT. selves, and if they found good ground for complaint they would come to the Indian Office with it. Mr. MoNDELL. In order for any tyranny and abuse to continue about an ordinary reservation without being brought to the atten- tion of the public generally, would it not be necessary for it to have to escape the notice of the squaw men, the half-breeds, the white men in the locality, the educated Indians returned from the schools, all the lawyers in the community, and the missionaries in the de- nominational schools, and in some way avoid that wonderful volume of general talk— gossip — that goes about a reservation ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And all those avenues of information would have to be closed in one way or another to have any serious condition of tyranny or injustice go on? Mr. Leupp. Without being known outside? Mr. MoNDELL. Yes, sir. Mr. Leupp. Most assuredly. Mr. George. The Indian agent has great influence? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And his word would stand at Washington as against all of them? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; unless the investigation proved that he was right. Mr. George. Precisely; but the presumption is that the depart- ment would regard him, so long as his character remained good at Washington, as a man whose word went further than anybody else ? Mr. Leupp. It would be like this: The burden of proof would be thrown on the other people. He would not have to prove himself a guiltless person. The Chairman. I want to make a suggestion. Can you now give us any information as to the birth rate and death rate on any of the reservations ? Mr. Leupp. Not offhand. The Chairman. I wish you would look into it and be prepared to give us the information. Mr. Leupp. Some years ago, with the authorities we had then to consult, I made an inquiry into the general birth and death rate among the Indians and found the birth rate more than kept up with the death rate, and from the best evidence I could get the birth rate was one-fifth of 1 per cent a year, 2 per cent a census decade. Mr. George. Over the death rate ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; taking the rates as a whole and counting everyone as an Indian who had Indian blood of an appreciable quantity. The Chairman. Mr. Mondell spoke of the squaw man and then of the white man. As I understand, the squaw man is a white man? Mr. Leipp. Yes, sir ; but he was referring to those connected with the Indians. Mr. Mo>;delt.. In the nomenclature of the West, the squaw man and white man are two different people. The Chairman. Both the same and both different. Does it apply to a man who has married a mixed-blood Indian ? Mr. Leupp. Anyone. (Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, Tuesdav June 6, 1911, at 10 o'clock a. m.) No. 2 HEARII^GS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF KEPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 6, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, JE., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCarhon, Clerk. IJ EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditures in the Interior Department, House or Representatives, Tuesday, June 6, 1911. The committee having under consideration the investigation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs met at 10 a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Cathn. There were also present ex-Commissioner of Indian Aifairs Francis E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Aifairs Robert G. Valentine, Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, and Thomas Surrama. STATEMENT OF MR. FRANCIS E. LEUPP, WASHINGTON, D. C— Continued. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp, the more I think the ground over, the more I think that I did not get clearly in my own mind, and probably we did not make it clear to anyone, the manner by which persons having a small per cent of Indian blood get on the rolls of a tribe. Do you think you could make it clearer to-day than we did yesterday ? Mr. Leupp. Well, I suppose in general terms, Mr. Chairman, it would be this way : He would make an application to the tribe, and they would consider it in council. Then they would either agree to adopt him or reject him. If they agreed to adopt him, the record of then- agreement would be sent to Washington, and the Secretary of the Interior would examine it, and decide from the records of the council whether he should indorse this action of the council or not. Now, of course, if the Secretary, being trustee for these Indians, saw that they had been misled in a matter of that kind, it would be a point of honor wifh him to refuse to ratify it. If, on the other hand, he were satisfied that they were not being imposed upon, the presumption would be all in favor of doing what the tribe had asked him to do, for that is the general policy of the department, when there is nothing interfering with it. The Chairman. You explained yesterday that on those occasions, a council or tribal meeting, that is, a representative meeting of the tribe, was called to pass upon this question. Now, whatever the means of getting the evidence may be, is the evidence taken down in any way and forwarded to the Secretary of the Interior, so that he might have the whole record of the case before him ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; whenever there is a council of this kind. That is the general custom, to have the stenographer attached to the agency or some other stenographer. If the Indians prefer some other stenographer, he comes in and takes the testimony. 33 34 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Well, has that been true? Was it true in every case where an applicant who wanted to get on the rolls was being considered ? Was there a record made of the evidence and tnat record preserved and sent on to the Secretary to enable him to pass upon the case with a clear understanding of it ? Mr. Leupp. So far as I know that has always been observed; yes, Sir The Chairman. Those records, I presume,, would be preserved in the bureau ? -r 1 1 i • xi. ^ Mr. Leupp. Yes; or in the Secretary's office. I would explain that modification of my answer by this fact, tbat until, I thmk. Secretary Garfield came in, there had been a practice of communicating be- tween the Secretary of the Interior and the Indian Office through a division loiown as the Indian Division in the Secretary's office, and a good many of the records were kept there that have since been pre- served in the Indian Office. So that sometimes we have had to make a search both in the departmental records and in the Indian records to get the original papers. The Chairman. Have you at any time heard of alleged scandals with reference to getting persons enrolled as members of a particu- lar tribe ? Mr. liEUPP. Oh, I have heard rumors of one kind and another. The Chairman. I mean that. Mr. IjEUPP. Yes. The Chairman. With reference to what tribe ? Mr. Leupp. Well, I was speaking yesterday of the Kiowas, and I think the Comanches. There were some rumors as to how certain persons got on the rolls there. There have been no end of scandals of one kind and another in connection with the Five CivUized Tribes in Oklahoma and Indian Territory. There were some with regard to the Osage Indians. Now, at various times these cases have been investigated, and whatever action was taken was taken on the basis of such investigations. The Chairman. Investigation by whom ? Mr. Leupp. By the department, and in some cases by Congress. The Chairman. By the department through A\'hom? Mr. Leupp. Through some inspector appointed by the Secretary. The Chair^fan. That is, an investigation by an individual inspec- tor or .special agent, as it wore 1 Mr. Leupp. Yes; and in certain cases — for instance, in the case I was speaking of yesterday, the Kiowas — I made an investigation. I was not connected with the Government, but the President asked me to go there because he wanted to have the matter finally laid at rest by somebody who was not an officer of the Government. The Chairman. That you told us of yesterday by a mere reference as one of the things that brought you out on the reservations before you became commissioner. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. These reports, of course, are all obtainable 1 Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Chairman. And the investigations on which they are based ? Mr. Leupp. Yes. The Chairman. Please explain for us, Mr. Leupp, how a person not entitled to a place on the rolls might in some way get on them BXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 35 Mr. Leupp. Well, I think that would be an extremely difficult matter, although I suppose it has been done. The Chairman. How might it happen? Mr. Leupp. Oh, by the subornation of perjury. The Chairman. On the part of whom ? Mr. Leupp. On the part of witnesses brought before the Secretary at the time, we will say, that the matter was pending before him or when the matter has been pending in Congress. The Chairman. I mean back of that. I am not thinking so much of the Secretary, because, as I understamd you, he would be guided by the records before him. Mr. Leupp. Yes. I suppose in a good many cases Indian witnesses might be filled up with what they were told to say to the inspector, or the interpreter might be dishonest. It might happen in such ways as that, but the gauntlet that these things have to run is very severe, or has been at all events, for a number of years past. The Chairman. Where does the severity come in ? Mr. Leuet. In the Secretary's office. The Chairman. In the first instance or in some other place 1 Mr. Leupp. Well, the inspectors, I think, as a rule are extremely honest and honorable men and always very desirous of doing justice to the liidians Then when it comes to the Secretary's office or the Commissioner of Indian Affairs the same scrutiny is made there of ■every point so far as they can. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it not also true that the Indians themselves are very jealous of any additions to the rolls 1 Mr. Leupp. Of course it means this thing for them, and I assumed that would be understood without my stating it ; everything that the Indians own in common which is going to be divided is divided, of C0urse, by the number of Indians supposed to be entitled. Now, you add 10 or 20 persons to the tribal roll and that means a diminution of the amount that will go to each of the Indians. Mr. George. But is there no allotment from an outside source to an added member on the roUs ? Mr. Leupp. No; there would be no place to take it from. Mr. MoNDELL. 'The allotment is taken from the common land ? Mr. LeupP. From the common fund ; and of course you might say, "Here is a large reservation, with only enough Indians, with the allotments under the general law, to occupy and take possession of one-q[uarter of it." You \vill say it would not make very much differ- ence if they had some Indians added to that roll. As a matter of fact, the Indians watch everything of that kind with the greatest care, and they would say, "There is so much less left to sell to the white people." 3Sir. Geob©e. Let me understand that. Here is a certain amount of land, some divided in severalty, that is, allotments made to particular Indians, to those on the rolls, and then there is the remainder of the land. Does the tribe have any relation to that remainder of the land ? Mr. Leupp. That is sold for their benefit. It is opened to settle- ment, you know, and the Government acts for them. Mr. Mondell. It belongs to the whole body of Indians in common ? Ml. Leupp. Yes; so that every one of the allottees is on the look- out. Unless lie has some immediate, personal interest, he is on the lookout to keep the number of Indians as small as possible who are 36 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. going to share in that allotment, because then it leaves a larger sur- plus to open to settlement, and from which he is gomg to get money afterwards from the white settlers. Mr. George. I would like to ask whether what you said lornoem- does not conflict with what you said latterly, namely, as to the dift- culty of putting people on the roll. I understood you to say that there were quite a number of such instances, and that you yourself made an investigation of them. Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I said there were no end of charges. Mr. George. And that you found nothing upon your investigation ? Mr. Leupp. No. I found there was one clouble allotment made, and it was made under very peculiar circumstances. A girl of per- haps 16 years had been allotted by one allotting crew, as they call it; that is, "the allottuig agent has a certain number of men, surveyors, recorders, and so on, which he carries around with him, and some- times these are divided up into two or three crews, which work simul- taneously at different parts of the reservation. One of these crews came upon this girl as a member of a family in one part of the reservation. They allotted her and indentified her by entering on their notebook a description of her hair and eyes and height and all that. She was described then by the man whose tepee she was living in as his daughter. Another allotting crew, working on another part of the reservation at a little different time, came upon a girl whom they described as having practically the same character- istics as this first one, and they gave her an allotment. She was described by the man in whose camp she was living as his daughter. When I made this investigation, I saw from the character of the charges, and so on, that the onh* hope I could ever have of getting at the bottom of any of these things was by rounding up all the Indians and having them appear personally before me, and I gave them a chance to make any complaints which they had. I questioned them and put them under oath. I questioned them very scrupulously as to their share in any of these things or anything they knew about out- side matters. I also took the Indian complainants, those of them who had been most active in circulating these rumors, and made a jury of them, and had them at the table all the time hearing the testimony, and told them if there was a loose peg anywhere they were to point it out, because I was there to find out the truth about these things. The Chairman. This was all done through an interpreter? Mr. Leupp. Through an interpreter, but there were a number of those Indians who understood English perfectly well, and could have very easily held up anything. This difficulty of pointing out whether it was true that there had been a double allotment made to one person was met by the allotting agent by the statement that he suspected these gu-ls were twms, and that one of them had simply been adopted- by another father. But when I came to get down to the bottom of it I discovered it was the only case ever known m that tribe of polyandry. The one gu-1 could identify her mother perfectly, but the mother had been married to two men m the tribe, and they lived at different parts of the reservation. They did not know whose daughter she was, and she used to live first with the one father and then with the other father, and the two crews happened to get hold of her in this way EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 37 and when I found that was a double allotment I reported it to the Secretary of the Interior. Mr. George. Was that the only case ? Mr. Lexjpp. That was the only case where there was a flaw of that sort. Mr. George. You did not go there to investigate that one charge ? Mr. Leltpp. The other charges went down by the testimony of the Indians themselves. Mr. MoNDELL. There were all sorts of other charges ? Mr. Leupp. Everything. Mr. MoNDELL. A perfect cloud of them ? Mr. Leupp. If the committee wants to look into that matter, the original charges and my report are public documents and can be had from the document room of Congress. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp, I think it extremely improbable, perhaps entirely out of the question, that any error should oe made after the matter reaches the department here in Washington; but at its inception on the reservation, as I understood you yesterday, in determining whether there was a new birth or whether there had been a death in the tribe, the members of the family and the rela- tives and neighbors were interrogated by the supervisor? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were they sworn on these occasions or not ? Mr. Leupp. I assume that they were, sir. The Chairman. They should have been ? Mr. Leupp. They should have been, and I always swore these people I spoke of. The Chairman. Was their testimony taken down ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; stenographically. The Chairman. And a record made of it and transmitted to the department here ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And the Secretary of the Interior or the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, whichever one passed on it, had all the evi- dence before him that the supervisor had before him when he passed on the case ? Is that right ? Mr. Leupp. That is the case with regard to the council proceeding. The Chairman. No; but with regard to any proceeding where additions are made to the rolls ; is it so ? Mr. Leupp. No; I do not suppose that is so. . Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner The Chairman (interposing). Please let Mr. Leupp give his answer, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Leupp. All I want to do is to correct the false impression which I think the chairman has in his mind. You must understand, Mr. Chairman, that these additions to and deductions from the roll are usually made at the time of a payment to the Indians of annuities or distribution of goods. ' The Indians come in and present their identification cards, saying "John Smith, five in the family, three boys and two girls," or whatever it may be. Then the Indian pre- senting such card has the inquiry made of him, "Have you had any additions to your family since the last payment?" And he says, "Yes; there was one baby born." "Have you had any deaths?" 38 EXPEOTJITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. "Yes; I lost a son." Now, that goes down on the record orthe agency. You must understand that these payments are all made^n pubu/and the attorneys for the Indians and everybody s welcome there. That record goes to the Indian Office iovs^vvoysL But of course, the question Is the same in every case, ^^n J^reSS births or have you had any deaths?' Now,those ^^m^ are checked up by the agent from the reports of tlT.^Poy/=^- ,,SL!i &£ of are supposed to be everywhere around in the different districts of the reservation. , _^ ,. xu„„9 The Chairman. They are themselves Indians, are they « Mr Leupp. They are Indians, and they come m and make their report, that there was an old man died at such and such a place over in so-and-so's camp, or there was a baby born yesterday m such and such a camp, and so on. Those reports are entered at the agency at the time the reports are made by the pohce, and the police are around at the time these payments are made and are prepared to correct any misstatement which the parent may make, and some- times they do make very valuable corrections. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Leupp, have you ever heard of a case where an Indian claimed a birth in the family where no such birth had occurred, for the purpose of securing an additional name on the roll ? Mr. Lettpp. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. How many such cases ? Mr. Leupp. Oh, I suppose they occur prett;\- nearly at every pay- ment, the trouble being that the Indian does not have a very good idea of marking time. Mr. George. What do you mean by "marking time" ? Mr. Leupp. Marking the passage of time. He will be asked, and he will yes; more than that." "Well, was it at the time of the big snow last winter?" "Yes; it was back of that." Mr. George. Well, are not the Indians just like other people in respect to the marking of time? I thought they were more nearly accurate, as a matter of fact. Mr. Leupp. No ; they have a large variety of ways of marking time, according to the different tribes. But what I was going to say was, there will be a statement which will show that that Indian had made a misstatement in the first place, that he either had not understood the question, or something of that kind; that his child was born before the last big snow, and the last payment was made when the snow melted. So that would at once settle the matter, and his claim for that child would be declined. Mr. MoNDELL. Those were simply cases where the Indians reported the birth of a child which had been previously reported, and without any intent to deceive ? Mr. Leupp. Oh, yes. Mr. MoNDELL. In other words, that is very easily checked up by asking, "How many children have you ?" Mr. Leupp. Yes. There are things that give rise occasionally to scandals which are perfectly needless, along that same line, in this way: Among the Kiowas, for instance, they have in their language no comparative and superlative degree in the form of words, but they indicate that entirely by the he' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 39 For instance, I had great difficulty in getting hold of the truth with regard to one woman who told me that she had had a child within a certain period, and in order to plunk the question directly at her, I said: "How old is your youngest child?" The interpreter asked the question in her own language, and she answered in this ■way [indicating] indicating about 5 feet high. She did not laiow anything about the length of time or the number of j^ears. I said to the interpreter: "Put that question to her again. She evidently does not understand me. Ask her how old is her youngest child." I noticed that this man asked just the same question, so far as my ear would carry, except that he raised his voice, "How old is your youngest child f He put it, of coiirse, in the Kiowa language. She said, "Oh," and lowered her hand a couple of feet, like this [indicat- ing]. I said: "Now, interpreter, I want you to listen to me. Put this question to her with very great care." I know she had a baby of a certain age, but I could not tell whether it was born before the allotment or afterwards. I told him to ask her, "Plow old is your TOUN&EBT child ?" So he raised his voice still further, and she said : "Oh," [indicating], and she indicated that the child was a dangling baby in arms. Then I went on, and with that as a basis I was able to get, by close qu-estioning as to events that had happened before and after the child's birth, the time when the child was born. I simply give you that as an ilfastration of the difficult}^ of getting at fekese things sometimes, with the very best intention on the part of the Indians, and perfect honesty on the part of the interpreter. The Qhairman. The supervisor, then, is quite largely dependent upon the police for information or for the verification of statements made to him ? Mr. Leupp. Well, he is dependent on a large number of things, on the neighbors • The Chairman. How about the one I asked about first ? Mr. Leupp. Yes ; they form their share. The Chairman. Would you say that is the main way of verifying statements ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; it would differ entirely in cases of difl^erent tribes. The Chairman. What other elements enter into an ascertainment of such facts ? Mr. Leupp. If the Indians live in a rather congested community, the neighbors would be able to fix the thing. The Chairman. Mrs. Grundy ? Mr. Leupp. Well, hardly that. The Chairman. Do you mean mere rumor ? Mr. Leupp. No; I mean the neighbors who can be called in. The Chairman. As witnesses ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; as witnesses. You understand, Mr. Chairman, if there is any question about the thing, somebody raises it. That can be ■defended upon practically always. Then you go back to your original sources of information. In other cases, the father and mother of the witness would be able to teU. The Chairman. Taking the -police again; as a source of informa- tion, who appoints them ? Mr. Leupp. They are ^appointed by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. 40 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The CiiAiiarAN. To M'hat extent are they connected with or dependent upon the supervisor? • i i • Mr. Leupp. Oh, only to the extent that if the supervisor, loolmig over the tribe, sees somebody that he thinks would make a par- ticularly good policeman, he may make a recommendation that the next vacancy be filled by so-and-so, or he may send in two or three names. The Chairman. If he did not approve of some one on the pohce force, what effect would that have on the policemen? Mr. Leupp. It would depend on the commissioner then. If the commissioner knew the tribe pretty well and knew some of these people, he would probably do what he thought best. The Cuairman. Would he be hkely to keep in such positions policemen who were disagreeable to the supervisor?" Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; I should think he might do so. Mr. George. How would he know? Mr. Leupp. Well, simply the supervisor would report it. The Chairman. You say you think he might do so. Do you mean by that that his doing so would be the rule or the exception ? j\Ir. Leupp. Mr. Chairman, there is no cast-iron rule about any of these things. The commissioner has a large discretion in all such matters, and it is only proper that he should have. He has to take a thousand different things into consideration. He may have a large acquaintance with the missionary element or with the people aroimd the reservation, as well as among the Indians. He gets his impression of men when he visits the reservation, and certain Indians strike him as being particularly industrious and active-minded, and all that, and those are the people he usually marks on his memorandum book for preferment at some future time when a policeman's job is vacant. The Chairman. But, after all, Mr. Leupp, is it not substantially true that the supervisor, or the agent, whatever you please to call him, is virtually the autocrat of the reservation? Mr. Leupp. Well, in the same sense that the mayor of a city is an autocrat. The Chairman. And no more ? Mr. Leupp. Only that the mayor is bound, perhaps, by the organic law of the city, and lestricted in some of his functions. Or, we will say, one of the commissions which have now become popular; per- haps that will be a better statement of the case than to say a mayor. A commission is practically autocratic in most of the cases where things are put into the hancls of a commission. Mr. George. Do you mean commissions of cities? Mr. Leupp. Yes. Mr. George. On the contrary, the original commissions were autocratic, but the recent commissions are all amenable to the people, and can be taken out of office on very short notice. Mr. Leupp. Well, an agent is in just the same situation. I\fr. George. If you can get word to the head of the department. It seems to me, as you have described them, these agents are the God Almighty of a countryside. They have complete jurisdiction, and unless the matter gets to Washington in some way Mr. Leupp. But, Mr. George, I think that if you were commissioner for a little while you would soon find that almost everything does get to Washington. EXPENDITUEES IN THE -INTEEIOK DEPABTMENT. 41 The Chairman. If it does get to Washington, does it not go right back to the agent ? Mr. Lbupp. Sometimes it does, and sometimes the commissioner takes ib in his own hands and conducts his investigation in his own way. The Chairman. Is it not the usual procedure, and was it ii6t the procedure with you, to refer the complaints right back to the agent or supervisor ? Mr. Leupp. Well, I probably did that half of the time. I had other sources of information, though, and before I brought charges against an agent or started to remove him, I always gave him a chance to an- swer the charges just as I would do with an Indian or anyone else. I always gave him an opportunity to be heard. Mr. MoNDELL. You would necessarily call upon your officials on the reservation for a statement of facts Mr. Leupp. You have got to do that. Mr. MoNDELL (continuing) . In regard to any complaint made ? Mr. Leupp. It is just as fair that they should have a hearing as that the other side should have a hearing. Mr. Catlin. Did you have occasion to remove many of these agents ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; by dismissal or by enforced resignation, or what- ever it might have been, I got rid of between 40 and 50. The Chairman. How would you distinguish between the times when you ought and would refer the coniplaints to the supervisor and the times when you would not do so ? You say you divided them half in half. How would you determine which course to follow ? Mr. Leupp' Well, in those cases the source from which the infor- mation came would perhaps determine my course. If it came from a source where I felt some detective work was necessary, I would in some way find out whether there was any basis for this complaint, to begin with, and then having got that started, I would formulate the charge and send it to the agent to answer, and if the agent could not answer it, of course he got the penalty. Mr. MoNDELL. How many inspectors had you when you were commissioner ? Mr. Leupp. We had seven supervisors, I think, and five special agents. Those were the only ones that were directly under me. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, you sent those men out very often to inves- tigate charges and complaints ? Mr. Leupp. Oh, yes. Mr. Mondell. In other words, you were constantly sending them memoranda about matters to be examined ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; and they were always in the field. The Chairman. Mr. Leiipp, in Senate Document No. 445, which is before me, on page 360, I find this statement: The Chairman. Well, you can find the letter and file it. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; there were certain expressions used in that letter which could not be understood without the context. I said, for instance, that I did not understand what it meant by evidence given by Indians, "we acting upon them in the customary manner," but that it was our practice, when complaint was made against an agent, to send the complaint to the agent, in order that he might state in his own defense whatever he desired. That I consider at the foundation of all fair play. Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir. 42 EXPENDICTJBES IN THE -INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Now, according to this statement, that seems to have been your general practice and not only half of y<^r practice Mr. Leupp If the complaint was m such form and so bad that it ■became a complaint technicaUy speaking of course it would pass lap to the agent then to answer. The cases that I have stated were the preliminaries to a formal complaint. x 4. xu» ^-v„^4. The Chairman. Now, T^hen the complamts were sent to the ag^t, of course the name of the complainant went with it. He toew who it was making the complaint ? , j-j Mr. Leupp. Sometimes he did and sometimes he did not. The Chairman. If you sent him the complaint, how could he tail to know who made it ? It would have to be m writing, would It ncrt j Mr. Leupp. It would have to be in writing. But, for instance, I used to make it a point of protecting persons who, in good faith and where it was obvious to me the complaints were honestly made- protecting them from personally coming into the evidence until the investigation took place, and then they would be called to the stand. The Chairman. But if you sent the complaint to the agent, Mr. Leupp, does it not follow, as a matter of course, that he must know who the complainant was ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I do not think it does, necessarily. The Chairman. What would you do to keep the name from him? Mr. Leupp. Well, suppose the complaint came from a missionary, we will say, who was obviously actuated by good purposes, and not through any quarrel with the agent or anything of that kind, but the aggrieved party in the matter was- an Indian. Now, of course you could not say to the agent, "You are accused of holding back the money that belongs to John Smith" without mentioning John Smith, if that was the Indian's name. Mr. MoxDELL. But you would not necessarUy name the party who gave you the information ? ifr. Leupp. No, sir. And I remember one case, although the particulars have faded from my mind, I remember that I held quite a long correspondence with an agent before he had the least idea where any of m.y information came from. Mr. George. But you would name the Indian making the com- plaint through the missionar\^? Mr. Leupp. No; I am not sure that the Indian went to the mis- sionary with the complaint, but the missionary thought there was sometliinjj wrong in wliat the agent had done. Mr. George. But I understood it was a case you are supposing of an Indian wlio complained to the missionary, who complained to the department, and you sent that complaint back to the agent without naming the missionary. Mr. Leupp. Let me see if I can make that clear. Suppose an Indian went to a missionary, or the Indian perhaps had made an engagement with the iniBsdonary and did not turn up at tlie time he was engaged, and the missionary meeting him afterwards asked him, "Why didn't you come to my house at such and such a time?" and the Indian would say : "I did liot have any horse and wagon." "What was the matter?" "My wagon broke and I could not get it fixed." "Well, did you go to the blacksmith with it?" "No; the agent told me to come to him always, first, before going to the blacksmith, and he woidd direct tlie blacksmith." Well, did you go to the agent?" EXPBNajITCrBES IN THE INTBKtOE DBPARTMBNT. 43 "Yes." "What did he say'^" "He said he would try to have it fixed next week, or two weelis," or whatever time it mi: Mr. Leupp. That was in 1907, I think, or 19()S; I have forgotten which. Mr. George. Was this water-right question up at that time? Mr. Lei'pp. I suppose so; yes. Mr. George. W;is it up during your visit to the school? jMr. Leupp. As I s:iy, I can not recall anything in particular; I went there for other purposes. Mr. George. What was the time of your visit to the school? Mr. Leupp. I say I think it was in 1907 or 1908 ; I do not remember exactly. Mr. Latimer. I do not want to appear annoying to you or tiresome to you gentlemen of the committee, but I liave a memorandum in reference to all these facts and it has seemed to me tliat Mr. Leupp was the logical person to furnish them to us, so I am simply trying to get at his memory, as near as possible, as to any facts that he can give us. Mr. Leupp. I have such faith in Mr. Allen's perfect good faith and his knowledge of the subject that I will be perfectly willing to abide by anything he says and make it my own. Mr. MoNDELL. Have you a copy of the decree in that case ? Mr. Latimer. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. Would it not be well to insert that decree of the court in the record if it would enlighten the committee ? The Chairman. It is very lengthy, and a good deal of it would not throw an}" light on it. jMr. ^loxDELL. I assume the matter is of some importance in view of the manner in which the witness is being questioned, although I scarcely know what the object is, if there be any object. It seems to me that the way in which to bring the matter' squarely before the committee is to learn what the court decided and then follow with an inquiry as to whether the court decided legally or properly. I do not know just what the question may be. What is the question in regard to this water right, Mr. Latimer ? Mr. Latimer. Wliy, it is a question as to win' the United States Government, as guardian of the Indians, voluntarily permitted a local district attorney to intervene in a suit for the water rights of this reservation. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 95 Mr. MoNDELL. Well, do you take the position that the local authorities had nothing to do with these water rights ? Mr. Latimek. I am taking the position that I do not understand about it. Apparently the Indian Commissioner did this without any consultation with any legal authority anywhere, and I believe that it is the province of the committee to ascertain what they did and how they did it. Mr. MoNDELL. Perhaps it might be well for the committee to in- quire into the question as to what authorities control water rights. That would be rather to the point, and I do not think there is any controversy on that point anywhere. The Chairman. It seems to me very proper to inquire of Mr. Leupp concerning the details of it, because he is the particular officer "who should have known of it at the time. Mr. Leupp. And, of course, I did, Mr. Chairman, The Chairman. And elicit what he remembers about it even though we may get a detailed statement of the facts from other sources. Mr. Mondell. I was wondering just what the object was? Mr. Latimer. The object is to try to get some information with reference to that transaction. It is impossible to get any answer in reference to it at all. It seems rather strange, in spite of Mr. Leupp's physical condition, which he has explained to us, that he does recall, at intervals, various things when you ask him different questions, and I am simply endeavoring to get light on this subject and have to keep on asking different questions. The Chairman. I think it would be quite proper to run over the points; it may be that your suggestions will recall to Mr. Leupp's mind the facts that he ought to know. Mr. Leupp. I should be happy to give any information I can. Mr. Latimer. I appreciate that and do not mean to be annoying. Mr. Leupp. It is not annoying at all, if I am able to answer. The Chairman. Be as brief as you can with it. Mr. Mondell. If tliis matter is important, I rather feel as though we ought to have that decree of the court in the record. The Chairman. There will be plenty of time to put it in; it does not seem imperatively necessary to put it in now. Mr. Mondell. Well, I requested the insertion of a rather important document in the record yesterday that the chairman did not think was important, and I think the record ought to be complete. If the court has done any wrong we sliould know about it, and the way to find out is by knowing what the decree of the court was. The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Mondell. And it seems to me more important to put in the decree of the court than to ask the commissioner for facts that he does not recall. The Chairman. If the decree is relevant it ought to go in and if irrelevant it ought not to go in. We do not want a mass of testimony here that nobody can ever go through. Mr. Mondell might take that decree and examine it; if lie tliinks it is relevant we might consider putting it in the record. Ti it is relevant it ought to go in, but if it not relevant it ought not to .00 in. Mr. Mondell. I submit that if tlieic is any relevancy whatever in the inquiries with regard to this -water right the most important thing with regard to it is what the court finally decided. 96 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Latimer. As I understand it the theory of my question is simply this: Because I am asking the witness in regard to various matters there is no imputation that he has committed any great wrong. All I know and, it seems to me, all the committee knows is that we have a large amount of correspondence in reference to various matters; and the examination, as I understand it, is to ascertain as to the con- duct of the offices, and that you have autho^rity to recommend the cutting out of certain offices; authority to recommend how the depart- ment shall be conducted and improvements in it, and it looks to me that the only way that you can intelligently get at it is to run over the correspondence as best jou can and then ask questions of the parties that were in authority and had charge of that correspondence regard- ing any matters about which there is apparently no explanation. I know of no other way that we can consistently get at it. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, I do not know, Mr." Chairman, with all due deference to the gentleman making the inquiry, that the committee necessarily takes this view of their duty, or his conception of it, but it seems to me that direction is the thing in the inquiry. There is some one in the Indian Office who knows all about these things, no doubt. Why not call on the person wlio does know about them ? The Chairman. There is no reason why we should not hear aU persons, but the witness now is Mr. Leupp, and we shall go on with Mr. Leupp at this time and call others later, as it appears necessary, and until we get through with Mr. Leupp in this matter I do not think the committee ought to call anyone else. If you wish to go on and determine this question of the relevancy or irrelevancy of the opinion I think that is in order, but if it is not relevant it ought not to be printed in the record; we do not want to encumber the record with all the printed matter that can be brought forward. Mr. MoNDELL. I realize that, but there has been a long inquiry, the real intent and purpose of which I confess I am unable to reach or fathom, in regard to a matter which Mr. Leupp confesses he recallp nothing about and in reference to which there was a decision by a court, which I take it for granted was not appealed from. Now, we have the decision in printed form The Chairman. It maj^ or may not be relevant. Mr. MoNDELL. If the decision is not relevant then none of the inquiry is relevant, surely. The Chairman. That does not follow. The inquiry may develop that it is relevant or irrelevant; all questions on any matter can not be asked at once, and we will have to go along as"^best we can and try to do right by everybody, but we can not do it in one Question or in one minute; it will have to be developed as we go on. Proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Is the act which you now hold in your hand the act which covers the appropriation to which I referred ? Mr. Leupp. I am looking to see. This is the act of 1908. Now, I will look up the earher one. I have the acts here of 1906 and 1908; I think there were two or three appropriations made. Mr. Latimer. This was the remainder after the original appropria- Mr. Mondell. You referred to an appropriation of $500,000 for the Pima Indians for an irrigation system; this item in the appropriation EXPBNDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 97 bill for 1908 refers to an appropriation of $300,000; is that the appro- priation you had reference to ? Mr. Latimer. No, sir; I had reference to an appropriation of $540,000. Mr. Leupp. That was the first appropriation, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Yes. Mr. Leupp. I remember it vaguely. Mr. MoNDELL. "Was there an appropriation for $500,000 and a later one of $300,000 ? Mr. Lexjpp. I could not answer that, sir; my vague recollection is that they had a series leading up to a certain limited amount. Mr. Catlin. This act of 1908 provides for $300,000 for the Pima Indians ? Mr. Leupp. Here is the item in the act of 1906. Mr. Latimer. In reference to the removal of these Pima Indians, in reference to the question of water rights on the Verde Kiver, at Camp McDowell, and all the details of that matter, Mr. Allen is the only one you can refer us to ? Mr. Leupp. He is the person most likely to be able to give you the details. Mr. Latimer. But you do not remember who would be posted in reference to these matters in your department ? Mr. Leupp. I could not tell you now, because I am not so familiar with the personnel since I left. No doubt the present commissioner could tell you. The Chairman. Well, at the time you were there, besides Mr. Alleri, who would probably know ? Mr. Leupp. I could not tell among his sobordinates who were given these particular things; that has passed from my mind entirely, though I knew at the time. Mr. Latimer. Mr. Allen had charge of the legal questions, had charge of the complaints, and the handling generally of these matters ? Mr. Leupp. Yes; his division was known as the Land and Law Division. Mr. Allen is himself a lawyer and is also a very well posted man on Indian land matters generally. Mr. Latimer. Eeferring to your testimony of yesterday, Mr. Leupp, will you tell us under what conditions and in what cases an Indian living on a reservation can employ a lawyer without the consent of the agent or the commissioner ? Mr. Leupp. I know of no objection to his employing a lawyer, but the lawyer, of course, unless he receives the approval of the Secretary of the Interior, would have to come to Congress for his reimbursement, unless the Indian was able to pay him himself. Mr. Latimer. Is that a matter regulated by any printed set of rules issued by your department ? Mr. Leupp. It is regulated by law. If you have a copy of the Indian laws, I could show you the statute. Mr. MoNDELL. Is there a compilation of Indian statutes ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; there is a compilation of the Indian statutes and treaties, in two volumes, compiled by Kappler. Mr. Latimer. What rules are issued to the Indian agents, or what instructions are issued to the Indian agents that will act as a guide to them, in reference to exercising their discretion in making arrests of Indians on the reservation ? 98 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Leupp. I do no^, recall the phraseology of these things. Iq a general way, the agent is expected to keep the peace and preserve good order on the reservation. Mr. Latimer. Is that by a rule of the department ? Mr. Leupp. That is also in the statute, and the department fr.om time to time issues orders to the agent with regard to specific things, which are sometimes applicable to a particular reservation, and sometimes they have general application to reservations all over the country. Mr. Latimer. What reservation was it in which this jail was burned with some Indians in it, of which you spoke yesterday ? Mr. Leupp. I stated yesterday that I could not remember that. Mr. Latimer. Was it in Oregon or any reservation up in there, to the best of your recollection ? Mr. Leupp. Vaguely, I have a notion of its being in the northwest portion of the country, but I can not tell without looking it up. Mr. Latimer. You stated yesterday that the agent was imme- diately discharged after that. Mr. Leupp. I stated that he was discharged afterwards. Mr. Latimer. Do you know how long a period elapsed after the time the jail was burned before he was discharged? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I do not recollect. Mr. Latimer. Do you remember the agent's name ? Mr. Leupp. I think his name was Edwards; that is my present memory of it. Mr. Ijatimer. What is the purpose, Mr. Leupp, or the necessity, for the running of a pumping station on the Arizona Reservation? Mr. Leupp. The water was taken from the Pima Indians. It was a tradition when I came in the office that many years before the whites, who had settled in that country, had taken away the water that belonged to the Indians; that the Indians were a peaceful and good farming community and were getting along very well until that water was taken away, but when that water was diverted there was no means of getting water for them except — and I am speaking now on the authority of our engineers — except by sinking wells and putting in pumping stations. For the purpose of working those pumping stations power, I think, was gotten from the Reclama- tion Service — from, some large plant which they had in the neighbor- hood. Mr. Latimer. Now, that has been largely distributed both in the Gila Reservation and the Pima Reservation? We are referring to it now as an amalgamation or one reservation. Mr. Leupp. I can not say just how they are distributed from memory. I can not say how many pumps there were, but I remem- ber that we made experimental tests while I was in office and that they proved sufficiently satisfactory for us to extend the system. How much was done I can not say. 'Mr. MoNDELL. Have not extensive water tests been made on the Gila Reservation by the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Leupp. I suppose we have reports made by them. Mr. MoNDELL. But the Reclamation Service made extensive water tests in the Gila Reservation ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; and our own engineers went over it. I remember the reports from our own engineers. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. 99 Mr. Latimer, You do not recall any kind of agreement being entered into in reference to these water rights at Camp McDowell at the time of these Mohave suits, do you ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. And you have absolutely no recollection of any- thing in reference to that suit and of the water rights at. Camp McDowell coming up ? . Mr. Leupp. I can not recollect it as a separate thing. Mr. Latimer. Have you any recollection of any water cases coming up in Arizona ? Mr. Leupp., Yes, sir; I recollect the fact that the attorney for the Indians of Arizona and New Mexico — I think it was some such title as that — ^was directed to intervene. He was subject to the juris- diction of the Interior Department, but what suit it was I do not know. Mr. Latimer. Was he the attorney for the Indians— I do not understand — ^was he employed by the Indians ? Mr. Leupp. He was on the regular pay roll either, of our office or the Department of Justice. My recollection is that there is an appropriation carried for him. Mr. Latimer. Pardon me a moment.. It appears from the record that Mr. Alexander was the United. States district attorney for- the Territory of Arizona. Mr. Leupp. That he took charge of the cases ? ; Mr. Latimer. Then, his- employment would not be by the Interior Department? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; by the Department of Justice; and if that ig the case he was the United States district attorney at that time. The Chairman. If he was permitted by you to intervene, the direction would, of course, be in writing ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; it would go through the Department of Jus- tice, of course. The Chairman. Would there be any record of it in the Indian Bureau? Mr. Leupp. Oh, yes; I suppose so. The Chairman. And Mr. Allen would have the information in ref-^ erence to that? Mr. Leupp. I think so. He could tell you everything about it, by refreshing his memory from the correspondence, very readily, Mr. Latimer; The correspondence is a little deficient. Mr. Leupp. He might be able to bridge over some of the gaps, and if this was something that would have been, in the ordinary course of business, transmitted to the Department of Justice, it might be found there. _ . Mr. Latimer. It might be found somewhere, but I want some one who can give the information without going through the Govern- ment files. Mr. George. Coming back ,to the school question, I will ask you what phase of the school question was interesting you when you went out there ? Mr. Leupp. It was some casual thing — some question of jurisdic- tion, or something of that sort, between two employees — and it seemed to be a thing that needed some one who was in authority to settle it. I simply went over there — I think I spent the afternoon and stayed 98240— No. 4— 11 2 100 EXPENMTtTBES IN THE INTEUIOR DEPARTMENT'. overnight and came back the next day — and in the course of that I had a talk with these people. Mr. George. It was a comparatively trivial question ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; but I was somewhere in the neighborhood at the time, and I did then what had occurred a great many times when I had an opportunity to attend to a matter in person. Mr. George. You do not remember the water question, involving 1500,000? Mr. Leupp. Well, you asked me where I was and I can remember that, but I may be wrong as to the particulars. Mr. Mondell. I think, Mr. George, you are confusing in your mind the question of the water rights on the Verde River, which related to the irrigation of a comparatively small acreage on that stream, and the appropriation made by Congress of $500,000 for a water system on the Gila Reservation. Mr. George. But that was in the same general neighborhood? Mr. Mondell. They were two entirely separate propositions. The question of the development of a water supply here on the Gila Reservation had no relation to the question of the priority of rights of those contesting water claimants. Mr. George. The gentleman went there on a trivial school question. ■ Mr. Leupp. I was there already. Mr. George. He remembers he had a trivial school question before him, but this other question of water, which was at that spot, would appear to me to be of sufficient importance, if it had occurred about that time or antecedent to that, to have impressed itself upon his recollection. Mr. Mondell. My suggestion is with reference to the $500,000 expenditure; that 's on another reservation, some 75 miles away. The Chairman. Mr. George's question went to the recollection of the witness rather than to the particular fact, and his surprise is based on the testimony of the witness that he did remember being there about a trivial school matter, but can not remember about the expenditure of $545,000 of public money. Mr. Mondell. But the commissioner has at no time stated that he did not remember about the expenditure of the public money on the Gila Reservation. He has simply said that he did not remember the water right suit on the Verde R'ver. The Chairman. Do you remember about it ? Mr. Leupp. I gave all I could a few moments ago; that is, about the pumping stations being put in there and the arrangement being made with the Reclamation Service to furnish the power. These are things that happen to have made an impression on my memory. The Chairman. What did you have to do with the vouchering of that money ? Mr. Leupp. I suppose either I or my then assistant commissioner, Mr. Larabee, signed those vouchers. The Chairman. It was done by you or under your direction ? Mr. Leupp. I was responsible for it. 'The Chairman. Have you any more definite recollection about how that sum was expended than you have already stated ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know how much was expended substan- tially for digging the wells, how much for machinery, and how much for any other purpose connected with it ? EXPBNDITUBES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPAE.TMENT. 101 Mr. Leupp. No, sir. The Chairman: Do you recollect the result of it ? Mr. LEtirpp. Nothing, except that there was a discussion over the question of whether the water produced by these wells was good for agricultural purposes. That was in dispute in some quarters. The Chairman. Was there any specific reason that you can recall for your going to that neighborhood at that time ? As I understand it, the school question was a mere incident after you got there. Mr. Leupp. I can not remember what took me down there, unless I was passing through. I may have been passing through Phoenix in going from the Sante Fe iload down to the Southern Pacific's main line, and may have stopped over there at the school to attend a commencement, or something of that kind. I can not be positive even as to that. The Chairman. That was a small interest^ Mr. Leupp (interposing). That is the vaguest kind of idea. There was some question which had arisen at Truxton Canyon; one was over the building of schools in the Southwest in 1907, and I went there to look them over; it was a question of building a new building, or something of that land, and I took them in in the course of reaching California. The Chairman. That is, you were passing through, and had your attention called to this school question. Mr. Leupp. I can not positively state that it was the school ques- tion, but I remember the fact of rneeting a farmer who had formerly been a missionary, and a school-teacher, who, as I remember, had some diverse views about jurisdiction, or something of that sort. The Chairman. Who was the ofhcer of the Reclamation Service with whom you dealt with reference to the power station, if you remember? Mr. Leupp. My immediate advisor on that subject was Mr. William Code, who was attached to our own service, and he at various times brought members of the Reclamation Corps and other engineers with him. I went over the papers which were before me at the time, but what these papers contained, I can not say. The Chairman. You spoke of an assistant who may have vouch- ered these expenditures. Do you refer to Mr. Allen? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; to Charles F. Larabee. The Chairman. Is he still connected with the bureau ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; he resigned in the fall of 1908. The Chairman. Where is he now ? Mr. Leutp. I think he is in the city, but I am not sure. Now, it is quite possible that I may have vouchered these expenditures, but I know that with the multitudinous matters I had to attend to there, Maj. Larabee reUeved me often of the signing of papers of that kind that were required. The Chairman. In these matters, I understand, you are making your estimate of what may have happened then, rather than with reference to what did happen ? Mr. Leupp. Yes, sir; and, as I stated, my recollection is extremely hazy. The Chairman. Well, it is anno3dng to you and to us to inquire seriatim about these matters; yet we can not tell what you may remember and what you may not remember without calling your attention to the specific thing. 102 EXPENMTUEES !!}■, THE INTERIOE DEi^AEXMEN.T. Mr. Leupp. And I am glad to have you do so. . The Chaibman. .Can you relieve the situation any with ,a sugges- tion as to how we ought to proceed in order to get at what you may remember? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I can not, The Chairman . There is no way to tell whether you rerpiember it or not except by calUng your attention to it. Mr, Leupp. I am perfectly willing for, you to ask all the questions you wish, although I must ask the indulgence of , the committee for being unable to answer some of them upder the circumstances. The Chairman. Of course it is annoying to all of us, but we see no way around it. (Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, Friday, June 9, 1911, at 10 o'clock a. m.) Exhibit 1. [Public law No. 212. From Indian appropriation bill for 1906.] - Sec. 1Q. For the construction of an irrigation system necessary for developing and furnishing a water supply for the irrigation of the lands of the Pima Indians in the vicinity of Sacaton on the Gila River Indian Reservation the sum of fifty thousand dollars to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior: Provided, That the total cost of. the entire conatruction and installation of said irrigating system shall not exceed five hundred and forty thousand dollars: Provided further, That when said irrigation system is in successful operation and the Indians have become selfT supporting the cost of operating the said system shall be equitably apportioned upon the lands irrigated and to the annual charge shall be added an amount sufficient to pay back into the Treasury the cost of the work within thirty years, suitable deduction being made for the amounts received from disposal of lands which now form a part of the said reservation. Exhibit 2. [Public law No. 258. From Indian appropriation bill for 1907.1 For the construction of an irrigation system necessary for, developing and furnishing a water supply for the irrigation of the lands of the Pima Indians in the, vicinity of Sacaton, on the Gila River Indian Reservation, two hundred and fifty thousand dol- lars, to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior:' Promded further, That when said irrigation system is in successful operation, and the Indians have become self-supporting, the cost of operating the said system shall be equitably apportioned upon the lands irrigated, and to the annual charge shall be added an amount sufficient to pay back into the Treasury, the cost of the work within thirty years, suitable deduction being made for the amounts received froni disposal of lands which now form a part of said reservation. Exhibit 3. [Public law No. 164. From Indian appropriation bill for 1908.] PIMA INDIANS. That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, use such part of the three hundred thousand dollars heretofore appropriated for an irrigation system for the Pima Indians in the payment of such Indians' proportionate part of the construction of the Salt River project, and such funds may be transferred to the reclamation fW, to be expended by that service in accordance with its rules and regulations, the Indians to receive a credit upon the reclamation charge assessed against their lands undeir the Salt River project for the amount so transferred. No. 5 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 9, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditures IN THE Interior Department, House of Representatives, Fridaf, June 9, 1911. The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The follomng members of the committee were present: Messrs. Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Cathn. There were also present ex-Commissioner of Indian Affairs Francis E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Robert G. Valentine, Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, Thomas Surrama, and Joseph Latimer, attorney at law, Chicago, 111. The Chairman. We will proceed with the hearing. I suppose, Mr. Valentine, we are ready to hear from you. (The witness, Mr. Robert G. Valentine, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, was duly sworn by the chairman.) STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS. Mr. Latimer. What is your name ? Mr. Valentine. Robert G. Valentine. Mr. Latimer. What i^osition do you hold in the Government ? Mr. Valentine. I am the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Latimer. How long have you held such position? Mr. Valentine. Since June 17, if I recollect the exact date cor- rectly, 1909. Mr. Latimer. What, if any, was your previous connection with the office of Indian Commissioner prior to that date ? Mr. Valentine. I have been in the Indian Office since March 10, 1905. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, may I make an inquiry just at this f)oint? Is it the intention of the chairman to have the gentleman rom Chicago [Mr. Latimer] conduct the investigation and inquiries from this point on behalf of the committee ? The Chairman. The chairman can not answer that question, because he does not know Mr. Latimer's mind on it. 103 104 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, this is an investigation by a committee of Congress. Do I understand that Mr. Latimer is our attorney ? The Chairman. I do not know how you understand it. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, what are the facts ? The Chairman. He is not our attorney. Mr. Mondell. He is not in the employ of the committee ? The Chairman. No, sir. Mr. Mondell. Is he a witness who has been subpoenaed ? The Chairman. No, sir. What is the purpose of your question? Are you afraid that this examination shall be thorough and completfe? Mr. Mondell. I certainly am not. The Chairman. Then, what is the purpose of your question? What difference does it make who brings out the facts ? Mr. Mondell. It does not make a particle of difference who brings out the facts, but I do not understand that it is the rule of these inves- tigating committees to call in outside parties to conduct the inquiry. The Chairman. Ai-e you opposed to doing it ? If so, why ? Mr. Mondell. If it is the desire of the committee to call in an out- side party as attorney to conduct the investigation, why, of course, I shall submit to anything that is desired by the committee, but that does not occur to me as being the regular way of procedure or the ordinary way. The Chairman. If it is neither ordinary nor regular, is there a rule in these matters ? If so, what is the rule ? Mr. Mondell. I assume that this is not the rule. The Chairman. If there is a rule, please produce it, and let us either follow it or make a new one. Mr. Mondell. I think it is the universal practice in committees of this sort for the chairman to conduct the inquiry, with such inter- rogations and inquiries by other members of the committees as may seem desirable. I take it that this is not an investigation for the purpose of developing something that some person not connected with the committee may desire to develop, except as developed through the committee, but that it is an investigation by the com- mittee of matters which the committee desires to have investigated. The Chairman. And, therefore, by anyone for the committee and under the direction of the committee. Mr. Mondell. If the committee desires to constitute Mr. Latimer or anyone else its agent or attorney to conduct the inquiry, and shall vote so to do, I shall not object. The Chairman. Are you opposed to his aiding us ? Mr. Mondell. I am opposed to his aiding us unless it is the desire of the committee that he shall do so. The Chairman. Why ? Mr. Mondell. Because I do not consider that the orderly method of procedure in matters of this sort. The Chairman. Is that the only reason? Mr. Mondell. That is the only reason. The Chairman. The Chair thinks that is not a good reason; but it can be put in the form of a motion. EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 105 Mr. MoNDELL. I move, Mr. Chairman, that until such time as the committee may procure the services of an attorney, if they see fit so to do, that the inquiry shall be conducted by the members of the com- mittee — by the chairman and the other members of the committee. Mr. Catlin. I feel very much as Mr. Mondell does about it.. The Chairman. Is there a second to the motion? Do you, Mr. Catlin, second the motion ? Mr. Catlin. I second the motion. The Chairman. It has been moved and seconded that the in- vestigation be conducted by the members of the committee, and that Mr. Latimer be not permitted to conduct the examination at this time. I think that is the substance of the motion. (The motion thus put by the chairman was voted down by the committee.) Mr. Hensley. I desire to say this by way of explanation: I feel, as an individual member of this committee, that I have other duties to perform besides appearing here as a member of this committee on matters involving affairs that come before the committee. I take it that Mr. Mondell, or any other member of this committee, would not interpose any objection to any Indian appearing before this com- mittee and inquiring into matters pertainmg to this investigation. Now, Mr. Latimer appears here as the representative of Dr. Montezuma and other Indians, as he says he does. It is a matter of little consequence whether the committee designates him as attorney to represent them or not, so that we get at the facts involved in this investigation. The Chairman. The matter is settled now, and Mr. Latimer will proceed. Mr. Hensley. Pardon me a moment; but I think it might be well to make a motion that Mr. Latimer be directed to go ahead. (The motion thus made by Mr. Hensley was seconded by Mr. George and adopted by a vote of the committee.) The Chairman. The motion is carried unanimously. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, I voted "no." The Chairman. I beg your pardon; I thought I heard you vote "aye." Mr. Mondell. I did vote "no," and prefer to have the record so indicate it. I think it is very material that the chairman and the members of the committee should conduct the investigation along lines that will bring out the facts, and not by some one who has no official connection with the committee who may not develop the facts. The Chairman. Of course you understand that the presence of Mr. Latimer does not prevent any member of the committee from developing such facts and asking such questions as he sees fit. Mr. George. I understand, as a member of the committee, that I have the right to ask any questions or to develop this inquiry in any direction that suits my judgment, and I am not- advocating anything that will deprive any member of the committee of any of his powers in that regard, nor do I understand that any member is suggesting that any member shall be deprived of any of his powers. 106 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. I will state at this time, in order that it may go into the record, that every member of this committee now present, with the exception of Mr. Mondell, has very little or no special knowl- edge of the Indian affairs; that to qualify themselves to handle and develop the situation would require daj-s and even weeks of study and examination of the papers which we have obtained from the Indian Office; that each member of the committee has a number of other committee connections and a great many other official duties to perform; that under the circumstances it would be physically and absolutely impossible for any member of the committee, except Mr. Mondell, without gross neglect of his other duties, to qualify himself to ask a witness such questions as would tend to clearly develop the situation, and that under the circumstances the chairman deems it particularly aprojxis if not necessary, that the e(.mmiitee should have or accept help offered it on behalf of the Indians, or indeed anyone else, whose purpose it was to get at the true facts of the situation. Personally I might add that of late I have been working at a point where I do not think I can keep it up, and it would be utterly impos- sible for me to give the pupei.s before us and the whole situation such time and energy as are absolutely necessary to an intelligent conduct of the examination. You may proceed Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Mr. Valentine, I asked you just before the interrup- tion, if I remember correctly, will you kindly state your previous con- nection with the Indian Department prior to June'l7, 1909, the date of your appointment as Indian Commissioner ? Mr. Valentine. M}- previous connection began on March 10, 1905, as private secretary to Commissioner Leupp. I held that position for about two years, and then, if I recall correctly, I became supervisor of Indian schools, taking a rather long trip into the field. I served again for a short time as private secretary, and then again as super- visor, until I was appointed Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs by President Roosevelt on the 3d of December, 1908, becoming com- missioner, as I have already stated, on the 17th of June, 1909. " Mr. Latimer. Then, you have had something over six years actual connection with the Indian Department continuously? Mr. Valentine. Six years last March. Mr. Latimer. During that period have you had occasion to visit the reservations in the Territory of Arizona ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. In a general way, state how frequently you have visited these various reservations in that Territory. Mr. Valentine. I have made two fairly extensive trips to Arizona; the first one was in the northern- part of Arizona, going very exten- sively through the Gila and Navajo Reservations, and visited the Navajo Reservation in New Mexico, which is just adjacent to it. On the second trip I went through the southern part of the country. On both of these trips I traveled on horseback very largely, and I visited the San Carlos Reservation, the Mohave- Apache Reservation, the Pima Reservation, the Salt River Reservation, and the Phoenix schools. EXPESTDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. 107 Mr. George. When was this 1 Mr. Valentine. The second trip was made in 1908, if I recall cor- rectly. Mr. Latimek. Was that while you were Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Valentine. It was while I was supervisor of Indian schools; just before I was appointed assistant commissioner. Mr. Latimer. You are the executive head of the entire Indian Bureau, are you not? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Ml". Latimer. Kindly state who is next in authority, and what is the title of his position ? Mr. Valentine. Mr. F. H. Abbott is the Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Latimer. And, who is next in authority ? ^Ii-. Valentine. Mx. Charles F. Hauke, who is the Second Assistant Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Latimer. Is there a third assistant ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. What other general officers have you in your office here in Washington ? Mr. Valentine. I have first, in the way of importance, a law officer, Mr. E. B. Meritt, and associated Avith him as the board of law, policy, and review are two other gentlemen, Air. Allen and Mr. Wan- ner. Then I have an executive committee, Avhich I generally consult with as my cabinet on matters of policy and method, which is com- posed of the two assistant commissioners, the board of review, and the chiefs of divisions, or any particular chief or clerk who may have the most detail knowledge of the matter in hand. It is my custom to consult them on all matters of policy and method. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to insert at this point this chart, showing the organiza- tion of the Indian Office. I think it would help materially anyone interested in Indian affairs. (The chart referred to was admitted to the record, and is as follows:) 108 EXPENDITURES IN THE IJSTEEiOK DEPARTMENT. ^ b- ^ NS ' — >. < <^ z q: O 518 3° r- Bujieio - siuno^oy L 9ij[d33ni(oog i spjoooy p S3|ee - SJSffJiUOO n siu3lu;0|(V L coijddns r caMI^npui - eiooqaC - miioH L japjQ pue «e-l C3sXo|du/3 r e3!i':u<'4S - L BOIIJ puB P|IPW EXPENDITUKBS IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. 109 Mr. Latimer. Briefly, I would like to have a general resume of the condition of the Indian Department, so that the committee will have a general idea of it. Mr. Valentine. I appreciate very much that you want that, and I think it will help us all in getting at the facts. The Indian Ofhce, to one not famihar with it from the inside, can best be described -per- haps by saying that it has four large administrative divisions known as Methods, Education, Lands, and Finance. The Methods Division we can readily dispose of, it being simply a division concerned all the time in finding general processes of trying to avoid delays and carrying out the administrative purposes. It comprises the Mails and Files — that is, the receiving and iihng parts of the office; the stenographic section, which we have organized there as against the old way so com- mon in the department of having stenographers acting more as private secretaries to three or four clerks; a statistics section, v.iiich suppHes me with vital, financial, and general statistics of forces in the field and their progress. Leaving aside that more or less distinct division, the three following divisions, Education, Land, and Finance, deal with what with a manufacturer, whose business is shoes instead of citizens, would be called the plant. The Land Division handles all the force connected with that part of the plant, that is, it has general jurisdic- tion of the 60,000,000 and more of Indian lands under our jurisdic- tion. It is concerned with the handfing of the eight or nine million acres of fine timber lands which form a part of that 60,000,000 acres; with the handhng of irrigation projects on about a million and a half acres of irrigable land, although only about 150,000 acres of it so far have been put under ditch; and with the allotments to Indians, and with aU matters of contractural relations affecting the land, and, finally, with the sales or disposition or the sloughing-off processes of the plant. I will now pass to the Education Division. The Educational Divi- sion has four subsections, the first being called the law and order section. That has the handling of all such questions as affect the police, the general sociology, and the moral conditions on the Indian reservations. It is followed by three other divisions, each division being named according to its object, health being a primarj^ one, because there is no use of this work with Indians unless you have some live Indians to work with, which at one time seemed to be more or less threatened. The next section is school, or the education of them under what is commonly known as schooling, and the next is industry, which is, perhaps, next to health, the most important of all. Alongside, you will see on the chart two more suspended divi- sions, called employment and supplies. These are really not divisions, but are concerned with the two very important functions of employ- ing help and keeping track of the efficiency, promotion, removal, or dismissal of the 6,000 and odd employees in the Indian service. The purchasing office of the Education Division's work has the purchase under contract and on open market of four million and some odd dol- lars of supplies which the Indian Office buys annually. The reason they are under the Educational Division is because they are mainly occupied with the law and order, health, schools, and industrial mat- ters and are providing for that work. The third main division of the Indian Office is that of lands, and the fourth is the Finance Division, 110 EXPENDITXTEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. which handles all the fiscal affairs of the office, and is divided into the three sections of bookkeeping, accounts, and clainas. It mij^ht be interesting for a committee on expenditures to know that, ending with June 30, 1910, we have for the first time in the his- tory of the Indian Office a complete system of cost accounts. This cost-keeping system enabled me to keep some track of how we are making progress. All the appropriations under which we work amount in all to about 1,350 different appropriations of funds made by Congress at all times in the past years, of which about six or seven hundred are made annually in the Indian appropria- tion bill. The result of that has been, in order to get exact knowledge of the application of it, to make it necessary to go into a great number of books simply to keep track of our fiduciary relations. For in- stance, if we want to ascertain the amount of crops produced on an Indian reservation, we want to know the number of expert farmers who were employed to help laise those crops, and other expenses connected with it, because possibly as many as 10 appropriations may be involved in that v/ork. So I am sure that the committee will find these cost-keeping books invaluable in any detailed investiga- tion that they may want to make into our expenditures. They are still far from perfect, but it is the first thing of the kind installed in the bureau in the 80 or 90 years of its existence. It involved a great amount of work. Mr. Latimer. The appropriations are for some specific purpose, are they not % Mr. Valentine. \es, sir, as a rule; but there are some exceptions. The exceptions are few, however. Mr. Latimer. Wliat are the exceptions % Mr. Valentine. The main exception would be in the contingen- cies in the Indian Service. The general appropriation of this year for that is 18-5,000. This is placed at my disposal for such use as I see fit to make of it, under the direction, of course, of the Secretary. For instance, I pay special agents out of it, and my own traveling expenses; these items are named in it as a specific part of it. Mr. Latimer. Are there any other exceptions % Mr. Valentine. Not strictly spealdng. "We have a school fund of $1„400,000 wliich can be used by us partly for schooling and for general investigation purposes, and wliich leaves the Indian Com- missioner vcrv wide discretion. We have another appropriation, I think, tliis year, of $350,000 or $400,000 for a number of heterogenous purposes, such as industrial work, the payment of farmers and the conduct of experiment staticins, and the employment of stockmen. Mr. Latimer. Are there any other exceptions ? Mr. Vale.vtine. Not that I recall, sir. Mr. Latimer. All of those that you have named have a more or less specific purpose ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; the intention of Congress has been very clearly indicated in all appropriations as to what they shall be used for. Mr. Latimer. Coiisiderable work is necessary to keep your accounts in an inteUigent manner in your office, is it not, so as not to confuse one fund with another ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; a very great amount of work. I do not know, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to ask — not to go in the record EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPAKTMENT. Ill unless you wish it — in the course of this investigation, some questions with reference to an idea that occurred to me. It is sometliing we have long wanted, and possibly the committee would help us to get it. Would it be a good plan for mo to mention it now ? The Chairman. You can keep a minute of it in your memory. I do not loiow whether this would be a good place for it in the record, but we would be glad to hear from you on that line later on. Mr. Valentine. The point that the gentleman made, that a great amount of work was necessary, brought it to my mind. It does involve a great amount of useless labor. It involves a tremendous amount of work fx-om the business point of view, and I think some other plan would give Congress a better check on our work. The Chairman. Vv"e would be glad to have your views on that if you have them worked out, if j^ou think of it before we get through with you, and you have such a scheme elaborated. Mr. George. But it would be more advisable to have that at the end of the testimony than now. The Chairman. It would be better at some other place than now. It would not be appropriate at this point. Mr. Latimer. AVhen does your iiscal year end ? Mr. Valentine. On June 30. Mr. Latimer. What is the appropriation for your school fund that you mentioned awhile ago for the last fiscal year ? . Mr. Valentine. As Trecollect, it is 11,420,000. Mr. Latimer. That was the fund you mentioned as an illustration that might not be termed an exactly specific fund or a fund for specific expenditures '? Air. Valentine. It is absolutely specific. Mr. Latimer. But one under which the Indian Commissioner would have considerable latitude in the expenditure? Mr. Valentine. It is absolutely specific as to the distinct definition of the boundaries within viiiich it can be used. I simply mention it as a fund out of which can be paid the expenses of tlie school system, the purchase of supplies, the paj^ment of employees, and the expense of official's travel, and all that, are paid from it. It rests with me to say, for example, whether I will pay a certain amount of this fund to more people on the reservation Mr. Latimer. I do not imderstand what you mean by people ? Ml". Valentine. More emplo3^ees, I mean; or whether it shall be used in the operation of these employees. Mr. Latimer. If you put more people to work, what do you mean by using it in the operation of employees ? You would not have them unless you are operating, would you ? I have no objection to it, but what is the book you are referring to ? Mr. Valentine. This is a book of data that I always have when appearing before the House Committee on Indian Affairs. Mr. Latimer. Is it specially prepared for the House committee ? Mr. Valentine. Not for the committee, but for my use. Mr. Latimer. In refreshing your memory ? Mr. Valentine. I make it a custom to give each member of the committee a copy of this book whenever he wants it, because it contains a vast amount of information that would be, I think — I am 112 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. not reflecting on my own information — that it would b.e impossible to have any man to carry in his head about Indian affairs. Perhaps I should not take the committee's time, but I would be glad to indi- cate for the record the various items of expenditure under that appropriation of $1,420,000. Mr. Latimer. That is the school fund ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. You were referring to the fact that it was one of the funds that gave the commissioner considerable latitude in the use of or discretion in its expenditure ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Will you state a little more fully wherein you exer- cise that discretion ? Mr. Valentine. Well, for instance, many of the reservations have specific funds appropriated for the pay of employees and for the gen- eral operation of the affairs of the reservation. This fund I can use on any reservation in the country, and with it, if so disposed, either for moral or immoral purposes, I could build up the school on one reservation at the cost of the school plant on another. I should prob- ably hear from the Congressman from that State if I did so, but I could do it, and have the power to do it. That is what I meant by the fact that instead of being limited to the details, I am given broaS powers as to the details. The comptroller, of course, would not pass for a moment any item of expenditure that did not come clearly within the intent of the law. Mr. Latimer. Who is the comptroller? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Robert J. Tracewell, who is the most powerful man in the Government. He is the Comptroller of the Treasury. Mr. Latimer. Would he have any knowledge as to whether or not you were building up one school to a greater extent than another? Mr. Valentine. It would appear in the auditor's office if we were making tremendous expenditures at one point, but of course the auditor would have strictly no jurisdiction to inquire into a question of pohcy of that kind, but it would be a very pubHc matter. Mr. Latimer. If he thought it was large enough to call your atten- tion to ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. The question he decides is whether the expenditure is made witlun the law, or comes within the purview of the appropria- tion ? Mr. Valentine. That is the only question he would decide. Mr. Catlin. Is this appropriation made so much for one reservation, or how is it ? Mr. Valentine. I can use it anywhere in the United States, except that it is to be used exclusively for schools. The Chairman. This examination v/ould not touch the expenditure of any sum which was within your discretionary power. He would rely upon the wise exercise of your discretion, and would not investi- gate, however clisapproportionate the expenditure might be ? Mr. Vale.njtine. No, sir; except if he were very kindly or hostilely disposed, he would say, this is not my affair, or call it to my attention. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 113 Mr. Latimer. Well, in the expenditures for the Indians of the Salt River Reservation, you have an appropriation, or various appropria- tions, applying strictly to that reservation, have you not 1 _ Mr. VALENTINE. I do uot recall that there is a specific appropria- tion for that reservation. We have used money from our general irrigation funds, I think, and two different schools in the Salt River Reservation are paid for either out of the appropriation of 1300,000 for the support of the Indians in Arizona and ISfew Mexico or out of the general school fund. Mr. MoNDELL. Where are the schools in the Salt River Reser- vation ? Mr. Valentine. There are two schools there. One of them is the Lehigh School. That is the Salt River Reservation right here [indi- cating on the map]. There are two schools here, and one, as I recall, is near the middle. Mr. Mondell. How many Indians are on the Salt River Reser- vation ? Mr. Valentine. I do not recollect. Mr. Mondell. State approximately the number. Mr. Valentine. I do not like to state approximately, unless I am sure that it is an approximate. They are all included in these sta- tistics under the Pima School, because there are no separate statistics for the Salt River people. Mr. George. Is the reservation marked here on this map [indi- cating] the Gila Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; but the same man has charge of this reservation as has charge of that [indicating]. Mr. Mondell. Do the Indians belong to the same tribe ? Mr. Valentine. They are all Pima and Maricopa, as I recall. Mr. George. Is it your understanding that there is a school in what is called the Salt River Reservation, near Mount Sheldon ? Mr. Valentine. I can not tell you exactly. There are two large schools on that reservation [indicating]. Mr. George. Where do you drive from to reach this place ? Mr. Valentine. From Phoenix. Mr. Mondell. Are these schools near the Salt River ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Are they under the Arizona Canal ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Then they are in the extreme southern part of the reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Here is one of the schools [indicating on a diagram]. Mr. Latimer. That is not the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know whether it is or not; it is carried here as the Salt River School ; whether it is absolutely in a reserva- tion, I have no knowledge. Mr. Latimer. Do you know whether there is any school on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. There is at least one school there '( 114 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. When was it established ? Mr. Valentine. I can not tell you when it was established. _ Mr. Latimer. Now, coming back to this Comptroller situation; as I understand his duties, it is merely to ascertain first that the school fund appropriation is being used as a school fund. He has nothing to do with how you appropriate, or what school you use it on or do not use it on? Mr. A^ALENTiNE. Nothing whatever. Mr. Latimer. So that his check, if anything at all, would be simply a friendly checking ? Mr. Valentine. Either friendly or hostile. Mr. Latimer, vv^at do you mean by a friendly or hostile checking ? 'Mr. Valentine. If it was a friendly checking, he would come to me and say, "Are you not using too much money at this place or the other place?" Mr. Latimer. He has nothing to say with reference to whether you shall spend one or a hundred thousand dollars ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. Then it would be entirely gratuitous on his part if he called your attention to it? Mr. Valentine. Entirely so; but some of the most valuable things under the Government happen gratuitously. Mr. Latimer. But I was trying to get from you a statement as to what the accounting was. ^Vhat reservations lie in the territory embracing the Salt Kiver irrigation project? Mr. Valentine. By the Salt Eiver irrigation project I assume you mean the one hundred and fifty or two hundred thousand acres of land irrigated by means of the Roosevelt Dam. Under that defini- tion the Salt River Reservation, the Pima and Gila River Reserva- tions, the lands surrounding Phoenix School, belong to the school. Mr. Latijier. Is that a reservation [indicating] ? Mr. Valentine. Technically, perhaps, it would not be called so; it is school land. :Mr. MoNDELL. It is in the city of PhoenLx ? Mr. Valentine. "Wliether it is withm the boundaries or not I do not know. It is on the outskirts. Of course, in addition to this reser- vation, there are a number of Indians on the public domain south of GUa River Reservation, which might come under the power use of that project. Mr. Latimei;. I was simph- incjuiring the names of these reserva- tions. I did not understand you to state the Gila Reservation. Mr. Valentine. Yes. sir; l" think if the sten: ).2,ia]iher will examine his notes he will find that in the record — the Gila i'.nd Pima. Mr. Latimer. Is there not a Gila Bend Reservation also ? Mr. Valentine. I think tliere is, but, so far I recall, it is in the Gila Bend, and under the superintendent of the Gila Reservation. Mr. Latimer. Simply to refresh your recollection, I want to call your attention to a map attached to'your annual report, as I notice, I think, of 1909. As I notice the connection there, there is a Gila Reservation and a Gila Bend Reservation also ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 115 Mr. Valentine. It is called the Gila River Reservation. That is what we call it. Mr. Latimer. The correspondence, I notice, refers to the Gila Bend Reservation and the Gila Reservation, and that is why I asked the question. Mr. Valentine. That [indicating on the map] we have withdrawn. This [indicating] is the public domain around that large school. Mr. Latimer. Ihere is the Gila Bend Reservation [indicating]? Mr. Valentine. Then it is located in the Gila Bend. It is 20 or 30 miles, as you see [indicating on the map], from the western extremity of the GUa Reservation or the Gila River Reservation. Mr. Latimer. Is Camp McDowell in the territory of the Salt River irrigation project? Mr. Valentine. I understand not. Mr. Latimer. As I understand, there is the Verde River that flows through pretty much the center of Camp McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Has not that something to do with the Salt River irrigation proj ect ? Mr. Valentine. Only in the sense that the waters of the Verde River flow into the Salt River and is a source of supply below the dam. Mr. Latimer. Aside from that, there is no connection between this Salt River irrigation project and Camp. McDowell ? Mr. Valentine. I should say, from the engineering point of view, that they would be absolutely distinct projects. Mr. Latimer. With the help of your cabinet, as you term it, for convenience in designating the heads of your departments, you are able to keep in close touch with all matters pertaining to the depart- ment, are you not ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; absolutely, if by that you mean questions of prime importance as to policy and method, and no, if you mean many details, or the carrying out of plans after they have been carefully decided upon as to detail. Mr. Latimer. Well, if there should arise any question of con- siderable discretion which must be exercised by your department, are not those matters referred to you 1 Mr. Valentine. They are referred to one of the commissioners. Any matter involving particular discretion would be referred to Mr Hauke, Mr. Abbott, or myself, but unless they had some reason to doubt what my general policy was, and I was away in the field, for example, either one of these gentlemen would go ahead. ]VIr. Latimer. All these reservations that we have just named as being embraced in the territory of this Salt River irrigation project depend for their life practically upon irrigation, do they not? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. The question of the water rights upon these various reservations would be an extremely important question to your department ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; vital. Mr. Latimer. When it came to the question of putting to a decision the entire water right of one reservation, would not the niethods and procedure under which that was had come to your attention ? 116 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. It probably would. Mr. Latimer. Did you ever hear of the suit of Abbott against Hur- ley, in Phoenix, Ariz.j in which the United States intervened, involv- ing the question of the entire water rights of Camp McDowell ? Mr. Valentine. I never heard of it until yesterday. Mr. Mondell. Does the emphasis go into the record, Mr. Chairman ? The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. What officer has charge of your field work ? Mr. Valentine. What branch of it, Mr. Latimer? We have 52 officials in the field. Mr. Latimer. They are divided into field groups, reporting to the difi'erent officers that you named awhile ago. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Then you are not the head of the field work? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. What is the official title of your chief field officer? Mr. Valentine. I have, as you will see from this chart inserted in the record, a number of field divisions. The first is the investigat- ing force, which consists of nine men; you will find 10 on the roster, but one of them has recently left the service. Mr. Latimer. Have you any men in the field known as inspectors ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; we have not. We have men in the field who are sometimes called inspectors, but that is not their correct title. On the chart, under ,the group of field supervisory bodies, you will find liquor suppression, construction, health, schools, indus- tries, forestry, irrigation, and allotments, and up on another line, you will fimd the inspection service. Then you will find on the roster, beginning with the investigating force, and running down on the second page, E. P. Holcombe, chief of the investigating force, and William E. Johnson, chief of the liquor suppression force. E. P. Holcombe is known as the chief supervisor. Mr. Latimer. Is he not your chief field officer ? Mr. Valentine. He is the chief field officer in charge of the investi- gating force. Mr. William E. Johnson is known as the chief of the force for the suppression of the liquor traffic among the Indians. The field construction service has no man over it; the health service is the same way, and the school service has a supervisor at large, and seven supervisors, six of whom have special districts. The super- visor at large is the officer who investigates general school work, and then there is a seventh officer, a woman, Mrs. Mary Johnson, whose special work is that of normal instructor. The Chairman. Is this list you refer to complete at the present time ? Mr. Valentine. It is substantially up to date. The Chairman. What changes have been made in it recently? How far back would it be a correct list? Mr. Valentine. The fist was correct on the 1st of April. Since then Mr. Charles L. Davis has been transferred from the investigating force to the industrial force; Mr. Harwood Hall has resigned from the school force, and Oscar H. Lipps has been transferred from the school force to the industrial force The Chairman (interposing). I suppose it would be well to have that report printed. EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAETMENT. 117 Mr. Valentine. I will have it corrected and brought absolutely down to date before it is inserted. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner, what are the general duties of the men named under the subhead of investigating force ? Mr. Valentine. Their duties are confined simply to the investiga- tion of wrongdoing. Mr. MoNDELL. Are they constantly in the field?. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it their habit to return at stated times to the ofiice ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Does each man have field headquarters ? Mr. Valentine. We have a few rooms at Denver, Colo, where they have a sort of general meeting place. Mr. Mondell. Do they keep you constantly informed as to their locality ? Mr. VALENTINE. Daily. Mr. Mondell. And, as to the point where they can be reached at any given time ? Mr. Valentine. At almost any moment. Mr. Mondell. Do you then issue your instructions with regard to certain investigations from time to time as the necessity arises ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Do they have any regular route in their investiga- tion of the reservations ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; these are not inspectors, they are investi- gators; they go wherever the rottenness is. Mr. Mondell. They go where the complaints are made ? Mr. Valentine. They go where the complaints are made. Mr. Mondell. When you receive information that certain matters should be investigated, these men are sent ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; or when there is a suspicious quietude at any place. Mr. Mondell. Do you have, in addition to this investigating force, any officers whose duty it is to visit the reservations at stated times for the purpose of making investigations and reports as to conditions ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; we do. Mr. Mondell. What officers are they ? Mr. Valentine. The school force, which you will find on the sec- ond page of the roster, and it is their duty to cover their districts as nearly as possible once a year; if possible, they cover them twice a year. Mr. Mondell. You have divided it into six districts, and each one covers a certain territory ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Is it their duty, in making their visits, to report with regard to matters in these districts disconnected from the schools? - Mr. Valentine. Well, it is not their specific province; if they see anything that looks rotten they report it to me, and I then turn it over to the investigating force for investigation. Mr. Mondell. They are supposed to make investigations and inform themselves generally as to the conditions on the reservations ? 98240— No. 5—11 2 118 EXPENDITURES IN a?HB INTEEIOB DEPAKTMENT. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; and all of that force of 52 people are traveling around and are under the same orders. Mr. MoNDBLL. And it is their duty to report any matter that they think might be irregular ? . \ Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; and if they do not attend to their duty they would be severely disciplined ? Mr. MoNDELL. Or with regard to the carrying out of a policy with which they did not approve as applied to conditions before them ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And this relates not only to school matters, butio any matter on the reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Their maia function being that of school men, these matters would soon be brought to their attention from complaints. Besides, the Indians know that these men are above the superintendents. Mr. MoNDELL. There are 52 of them ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimee. That includes the various fqrces ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. These men are not under the jurisdic- tion of the superintendent absolutely. Mr. Latimee. To what extent are their movements of their own discretion? Mr. Valentine. Only within the limits of their specific orders, and sometimes these orders are more or less general. Mr. Latimee. Before going to one place to investigate, do they await orders from Washington, or have they the right to go on their own initiative ? Mr. Valentine. They have to await orders from Washington. Mr. MoNDELL. Is that true with regard to the school force ? Mr. Valentine. That is true as to the investigation officers. I draw a very clear line between the investigation officers and the inspecting officers. I. never thought an inspector ought to investi- gate; he should ffiid out the facts, and then turn them over to some- body to investigate the facts that he has been for months ferreting out. Mr. Mondell. Then this school force of eight people is the force which visits the schools and reservations in their respective districts largely at their own discretion as to time ? Mr. Valentine. They are under general orders from the office, and are in practically daUy contact with the office, so we know where they are. Of course they should not go a beaten track, because I think one important thing about an inspection is to drop in unexpectedly, in order that he may see the thing in its everyday clothes. Mr. Mondell. Would it not be well to have an inspection forces a force that was not practically or particularly engaged with the schools, but a force whose duty it would be to report on all matters on the reservations which they deemed worthy or proper to be called to the attention of the commissioner? Mr. Valentine. Of course they do that largely, but the reason we have the school force and industrial force separate is that pos- sibly the committee does not realize that it would take one man between two and three years of travel all the time to visit all of EXPENDITXJEES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPABTMBlirT. 11'9 the Indian reservations in the United States and getting a reason- able idea of them. The time distance between the Indian reser- vations' is so great that these men do~not cover the schools' any too^often and the industrial men do not cover the industrial farming conditions any too often. Mr. MoNDELL. While' the school and industrial forces are expected to pay particular and especial attention, the one to school matters and the other to industrial matters, the members of both forces are expected to report to the office on all matters that come to their attention which they believe the department should be informed in regard to ? Mr. Valentine. Absolutely; and we try to pick such men, of humane instincts and devoted to the Indian, as would consider it not only an administrative wrong but a moral wrong to let any such thing go unreported. I get some of my best information froin these men ia other lines. Sometimes they run onto a thing in other lines, just in passing by, that might be concealed from the man who was known to be specifically looking for that sort of thing. Mr. MoNDELL. Then one of those inspectors — is that the name ? Mr. "Valentine. No, sir. It is a little confusing. I call them my inspection force and my investigating force, but they are designated as supervisors and special agents. Mr. MoNDELL. Then the men we are talking of are designated under the law as special agents? Mr. "Valentine. Some special agents and some supervisors. Mr. MoNDELL. Yes. Mr. Valentine. That is another place where the terminology of the statute does not conform to the best administrative use of the people. Mr. MoNDELL. You would not excuse one of those men if he failed to report a matter that came to his attention on the reservation, or was so patent and notorious that it should have come to his atten- . tion, on the ground that it did not come within his jurisdiction ? I^Mr. Valentine. So far from excusing him, it would probably mean his rehef. Mr. Geoege. His relief or his release, did you say? Mr. Valentine. His relief froin the service. Mr. Geoege. Is that your term? Mr. Valentine. That is a pohte term for action that is not abso- lutely hot shot^that is, we might give him a chance to resign. Dis- missal, of course, brands a man as having done something that was flagrant. The Chairman. Is there any way of checking up those gentlemen? Mr. Valentine. There are several ways, Mr. Chairman. The first way of examining employees is where people do not think they have been reported fairly, and the other way is that Mr. Hauke and Mi". Abbott and myself spend a;s much time in the field as we can, studying the work of the supervisors and the inspectors and the investigators, and thien the daily reports that they send in give us daily si^is of whether they are cutting rock or wastingtime. (At 12 o'clock m. the committee took a reces? until 2 o'clock p, m.) 120 EXPENDITTJEBS IIST THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. AFTEB RECESS. The committee reconvened at 2 o'clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. STATEMENT OF ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OP INDIAN AFFAIRS— Continued. Mr. Latimer. Mr. Valentine, to get back to the question of a field force, as I understand the situation, what might be termed the legal designation or legal title of these different men working in the field is supervisors and special agents? Mr. Valentine. Yes. , Mr. Latimer. And for the sake of your own convenience, in your own department you have classed them as investigatory force and so forth; that is correct ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; the main distinction is between investigation and inspection. Mr. Latimer. And those are the designations of your ofl&ce ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. In the correspondence that takes place between those men in the field and yourself, they sign themselves either as supervisors or as special agents, according to their proper titles ? Mr. Valentine. Whatever their commissions read. Mr. Latimer. That is more for the sake of clearing up the question of the correspondence and the different signatures. Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Who has the authority to dismiss these supervisors and special agents ? Mr. Valentine. The Secretary of the Interior. Mr. Latimer. What is the usual system of dismissal, if you find some complaint against a supervisor or a special agent and want him dismissed ? I presume the complaint is brought to your attention, and it is upon your recommendation that it goes to the Secretary of the Interior ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; the Secretary has to dismiss all my bonded officials, and I can only dismiss those who are not bonded. So, for bonded officials, I recommend to the Secretary that they be dismissed. You find a good example of that in the case of Mr. Noble, the super- intendent of Ponca, whom I say I dismissed the other day. It was done at my instance and on my recommendation, but was done tech- nically by the Secretary. Mr. Latimer. Who appoints your bonded officials ? Mr. Valentine. The Secretary. Mr. Latimer. The Secretary of the Interior? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Does he also appoint the first and second assistant commissioners ? Mr. Valentine. They are presidential appointments. Mr.. Latimer. How about your other executive officers here in Washington ? , . ' s i Mr. Valentine. The Commissioner of Indian Affaits appoints all the imbonded field officers. The Secretary of the Interior appoints all the force of the Indian Bureau in Washington. EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 121 Mr, Latimee. Will you kindly designate what officials are the unbonded field officials ? Mr. Valentine. The unbonded field officials consist of practically every one except the superintendents of reservations, the special agents and supervisors and special disbursing officers, such as the special disbursing officers for the special irrigation projects, and the Menominee work. Mr. Latimer. Those are all bonded ? Mr. Valentine. They are all bonded. Mr. Latimer. The special agents and supervisors are all bonded ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Now, everybody else^the teachers and farmers and everybody else — who does not have the expenditure of funds or direct supervision over property are not bonded. Mr. Latimer. But the actions and the duties of these supervisors and special agents are entirely subject to your jurisdiction, are they not? Mr. Valentine. Yes, except so far as my jurisdiction is by law subject to the jurisdiction of either the Secretary or the President. Mr. Latimer. Are these supervisors the ones that are designated as your investigatory force ? Mr. Valentine. I think on that investigatory force there are some supervisors and some special agents, although I think the bulk of them are special agents. I reaUy do not recall, because the title is rather lost sight of under our organization. Mr. Latimer. And they are the ones you send out to investigate the reports of real "rottenness," as you expressed it ? Mr. valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. They are practically in the field, at work, aU the time, are they not, Mr. Valentine ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Who are the Indian inspectors ? Mr. Valentine. They are the men of the Secretary of the Interior whose general duty under the law is to inspect the Indian Office men and aU the Indian affairs. Mr. LATifflER. Under whose orders do they act ? Mr. Valentine. The orders of the Secretary. Mr. Latimer. Are they ever turned over to your jurisdiction for any special purpose ? Mr. Valentine. Frequently. Mr. Latimer. How; upon request, at any time? Mr. Valentine. Sometimes on our request, when we happen to be short, as we only too frequently are; and sometimes something is brought up to the Secretary direct, and he assigns them, without my knowledge, to go and investigate some Indian affair. Mr. Latimer. Do you know an Inspector Linnen ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Do you know anything about how long he has been in the service ? Mr. Valentine. He has been in the service of the Government a good while. Mr. Latimer. I mean in the Indian Department of it ? Mr. Valentine. No, I do not. I recall his being in Indian work for several years past. 122. EXPENDITUEES IN -THE . -IKTEBIOE DEPABIMENT, . Mr. Latimer. Do you know the number .of acres, approximately, of the Camp McDowell Reservation in Arizona ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimek. Will you be kind enough to give it? Mr. Valentine. It is 24,971 acres. Mr. Latimer. Will you give the number of acres in the Gila Reser^ vation ? Mr. Valentine. Three hundred and fifty-seven thousand one hun- dred and twenty acres. Mr. Latimer. The GUa Bend Reservation. You did not exactly estabhsh that as a reservation? Mr. Valentine. Twenty-two thousand three hundred and ninety- one acres have been withdrawn from the public domain around that day school. Mr. Latimek. You mean it has been withdrawn ? Has it not been created a reservation? Mr. Valentine. Yes; that is what we used. Mr. Latimer. Kindly give us the number of acres in the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Forty-six thousand seven hundred and twenty acres withdrawn under Executive orders of 1879 and 1903. Mr. Latimer. All of the reservations just named are dependent for their usefulness, or rather utility, upon irrigation ? Mr. Valentine. Mainly so. It is vital to their best use. Mr. Latimer. Are you or have you been allotting to Indians any land on any of these reservations ? If so, on what ones, please ? Mr. Valentine. I think we are now in the process of allotting on the Salt River Reservation. Special Allotting Agent Robling is there. I think our allotting agents are already on the Gila. We have been laying our preliminary plans for allotting the Pima. I use the words "Pima" and "GUa" synonomously. Mr. Latimer. In what way do you mean synonomously ? Mr. Valentine. I mean what is known in the office as the Pima is also known as the Gila. The Chairman. Perhaps "interchangeably" would better ex- press it ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, Mr. Chairman, much better. Mr. Latimer. That is, it is the Gila River Reservation and not the Gila Bend ? Mr. Valentine. No; the Gila Bend I know almost nothing about, and I never think of it. That is why I did not speak of it. Mr. Latimer. The Gila is the one of 22,-39 1 acres, around which the school is ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Was there not a Pima Reservation, from which these other reservations were created originally? Mr. Valentine. I have nothing but simply a sort of general idea that in the past there was a big lot of Indian country around in this neighborhood, out of which they have been diminished; but I have no information on the subject. Mr. Latimek. When did you start your allotments on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Valentine. I do not recall. Mr. Latimer. Can you approximately state that it has been two or three or four years, or just about the time ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB. DEPARTMENT. 123 Mr. Valentine. I can look it up for you and give you the accurate information to-morrow. Mr. Meritt, wiM you please look that up ? Mr. Meritt. Very well. Mr. Valentine. I simply remember that when I was there ia 1908, on the Salt Kiver, the Indians had gardens and lands under cultivation of their own, but whether they were what we caU ten- tative allotments, which frequently precede the regular issuance of the patent, or not, I do not know. Mr. Latimer. Will you be kind enough to explain to us the mean- ing of "tentative allotments" ? Mr. Valentine. Tentative allotments is the ideal way to aUot an Indian reservation. By that phrase we mean that the Indians get rooted naturally. Our agent and his farmer go out among them and get them to building a home and raising a garden and cultivating land, so that when the aUotting agent comes along to make the legal allotments on which the patents will be issued he has very httle to do except to run the lines and pare off a corner here or add a corner there to make it conform to the legal subdivisions. Mr. Latimer. It is the policy of your department, is it not, to encourage Indians on aU reservations to farm ifpossible ? Mr. Valentine. One of our main poHcies. We are pushing every effort to do it. Mr. Latimer. And any man that is following that up and living in one place has what you call a tentative allotment ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; and I would like to point out to the com- mittee that it would be the ideal way never to allot a reservation formally until practically every Indian had been tentatively allotted; that is, let the formal definLng of his boundaries take shape along the lines of his actual efforts. Mr. Latimer. In other words, give him an opportunity to make his home, and when he has made his home, then allot ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. How are those tentative allotments laid out in the first instance so as to avoid conflicts which might arise between white people if they went and took up locations on a countryside ? Mr. valentine. When a reservation has been surveyed, they are laid out practically as if they were final allotments, and the fact that a number of these reservations have not been surveyed is. a great hindrance to just that work, and frequently leads to some trouble of. the kind you mention; so that I have been urging very vigorously the surveying of all Indian reservations at the earliest possible date, whether the time for allotment were ripe or not. The Chairman. Do you have tentative allotments where there have been no surveys made ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; we frequently have them, because we can not wait for Congress to appropriate the money to make surveys. It is so essential that the Indians should get rooted. We have them on the San Juan River, northwest of Ship Rock. The Chairman. In that case how are the allotment boundaries determined ? Mr. Valentine. There is no way except the old-fashioned way of metes and bounds. • The Chairman. Who does it that way ? 124 EXPENDITXJBES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. Mr. Valentine. The saperintendent or some one he gets to do it, and sometunes it is nothing more than an Indian going in and saying: he owns from this gully to the foot of that hill. The Chaieman. Squatting on it ? Mr. Valentine. Practically squatting; and then his boundaries are likely to be broken up when the survey is made, which is very unfor- tunate. Mr. Latimer. Tentative allotments is only a term used by your bureau ? It has no legal effect at all ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. _ _ ■ Mr. George. I would just like to ask the commissioner this about these surveys. Is a survey made at the time of a tentative allotment? I did not get that. Mr. Valentine. Sometimes it is and sometimes it is not. It is very unfortunate if it is not. Mr. Latimer. Have surveys been made of these four reservations that we are talking about now? Mr. Valentine. I think the surveying crews are still at work on the Pima, if I recollect correctly. I do not know about the Salt and I do not know about the McDowell. Mr. George. You do not know whether the survey has been made? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. George. At the time of the beginning of tentative allotments, I think you said in 1908 Mr. Valentine. I simply remember that when I was there they had these patches very well fenced off. Mr. George. When you were there in 1908? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. What was your official position at that time? Mr. Valentine. I was supervisor of Indian schools. Mr. George. And who was commissioner at that time? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Leupp. Mr. Latimer. When was the allotment started on the "Gila River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I am not sure that it has actually been started yet. Mr. Latimer. It is simply in contemplation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. I know that the office has been engaged with all the preliminary work on which the instructions have gone out as to how it shall be done. Mr. Latimer. Do I understand that there have been anything but tentative allotments on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. Mr. Latimer. You have no knowledge of them ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. I will let you have that to-morrow. Mr. Latimer. And in that connection you will also give us more full information as to the allotments on the Gila River ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. In connection with that, Mr. Valentine, I might want to ask you some (questions with reference to the allotments, particularly to the Pima Indians. In looldng that up, will you keep that in mind also? Mr. Valentine. That is, you may want to ask questions concern- ing the general poUcy of allotting them ? EXPENDITUEKS IK THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. 125 Mr. Latimer. That is the idea. It appears that a few years ago there was a special allowance made by Congress of money for irriga- tion for the Pima Indians, and that you have received and spent, up to. June 30, 1910, some $325,000 ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Will you state where that expenditure has been made, a,nd in what way; that is, generally, so that we will get some Httle idea of where it has been apphed ? Mr. Valentine. It has gone to two main objects — the construction of a flood-water ditch for the Pima Keservation and the construction, up to date, of about seven wells for the purpose of bringing up the underground water and supplying the reservation with water; and that expenditure has gone in those two ways. The present estimate of the total cost of the Pima project, as we know the Gila Reservation project, is $602,000. I am omitting the hundreds. The total expend- iture to June 30, 1910, was $318,000, which went to building, and $5,900 which went to the maintenance, making a total expenditure of just about what you said. Mr. Latimer. Have you any figures at hand to show whether the most of the money was spent on the pumping stations or on this dam ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I have not. Mr. Latimer. The work on all of that reservation is or will be connected up with this Salt River irrigation project, of necessity, is it not ? Mr. Valentine. As far as the power to pump water goes; not as far as the flood-water canals go. The irrigation project on the Pima is very interesting only for this reason, that on the east part of the reservation there is a great deal of alkali, and it is not thought wise to do so very much pumping very far east of the Sacaton. Mr. George. Sacaton is pretty far east, is it not ? Mr. Valentine. It is about in the middle, I think. Possibly it is a Httle farther to the west than the east. -Mr. George. At any rate, it is unwise to go farther than that ? Mr. ValentA^e. It is considered so, and for many years there has been a grave question whether this pump water was useful anywhere on the reservation, but of late years the reports have indicated the absolute safety of using pump water; but what I wanted to point out is, if there is danger of too much alkali being brought to the surface on the western part of the reservation, where the pumps are, the use of this flood water will help to keep the balance, and the two quite distinct systems of irrigation are quite interestingly present here and helping one another out. Mr. Latimer. But the ditch part of it and the pumping stations have nothing whatever to do with the Salt River project ? Mr. Valentine. The pumping stations are supphed with poVer. Mr. Latimer. I mean with the exception of getting power from that? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. I do not know whether it would be pos- sible, but at any rate it would be a tremendously expensive thing to try to connect up by ditches. Mr. George. That power is gotten from the Roosevelt Dam ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. It is transmitted by wire ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. 126 EXPENDITXIEBS IN THE INTEBIOB DEPAETMENT. Mr. Latimeb. Is there any question whether this flows into the Salt River there 1 Mr. Valentine. No ; I think not. It must join it way down there. Mr. Latimek. What I mean is, is there any question of water rights so far as the Gila River is concerned ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; there are some quite serious questions. Mr. Latimee. In which you come in contact with the Salt River project there? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; there is no conflict there; but there is a distinct conflict between the people who settled at Florence, at the upper part of the reservation, and the possible project in the San Carlos country. There is no conflict between the actual water from the Ton to and the Salt River; that comes from the Roosevelt Dam and the Gila. ]Mr. Geoege. Where is this San Carlos ? Mr. Valentine. It is on the San Carlos Reservation, 100 miles or so east of the Gila Reservation. The Chaieman. It is known as the White Mountain or San Carlos Reservation on some of your maps and reports. ]\lr. Valentine. The whole reservation was the original White Mountain Reservation, but it has been divided for administrative Surposes into two parts, the southern part being known as the San arlos and the northern part as the Fort Apache. Mr. Latimee. What is the present condition of the water rights in all of these reservations ; that is, with the white users in there ? Mr. Valentine. I shall have to ask until to-morrow to be able to answer you perfectly on that subject, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimee. Thank you ; if you will. Mr. Valentine. I was not able to get all the information I wanted during the noon recess. I will do that by to-morrow, if that is per- fectly convenient to you. Mr. Latimer. Certainly. In that connection you might ascertain if you have any records of contracts with the water users' association of the Salt River Valley ? Mr. Valentine. We have this, which you might hke to put in the record. There is a contract with the water users' association, signed by Secretary GarSeld. Mr. Latimer. Made on what date and applying to what reserva- tion, please? Mr. Valentine. It apphes chiefly, if not wholly, to the Pima Res- ervation. It was made on the 3d day of June, 1907. If you would like, I will introduce this contract into the record. Mr. Latimee. If you will take it up to-morrow in connection with any other contracts as to the present condition of all reservations in Salt Riyer Valley, I wish you would do that. Mr. Valentine. I do not want to be diffuse, but I might probably help the committee if I outlined very briefly the plan lor water on these reservations. Mr. Latimer. If the chairman consents, I would be very glad to have it introduced now, except that it might encumber the record. We might have a statement to-morrow on that. The Chairman. Why not introduce this without reading it, and let it be printed ? Mr. Valentine. That is, as far as the contract goes; but I meant the whole situation. EXPENDIIUKES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPAKTMENT. 127 Mr. Latimer. You spoke of introducing it now. I presume you wanted to, for some purpose. Mr. Valentine. Not at all. It will do to-morrow. Mr. Latimer. And after you do that, give a brief r6sum6 of it ? Mr. George. It would be very interesting and very material, I should think, too, Mr. Chairman. I should think it had better go together. The Chairman. I do not see any reason why it should not go to the stenographer and be printed, and then let mm give his r6sum6.. Mr. Latimer. WUl you state a resume of it ? Mr. Valentine. This question of water in the Pima Reservation — I am now speaking very largely from memory only, having glanced over some of the papers during the recess — has been a much agitated Suestion as far back as 1886, and for a long time, as I recall it, the ndian Office and the Geological Survey were in dispute as to whether this pumping proposition was practicable or not, and while that dispute was gomg on the country settled up very fast to the east of the reservation and east of Florence and between Florence and up the Gila as far as the San Carlos Reservation. The taking out of water by th& settlers in there very seriously threatened the water of the Pima Indians, and I am not sure, now — I can answer you categori- cally on that to-morrow, but it will not affect the general view I want to get before you — whether the Pima Indians lost substantially all their water rights except to the flood waters or not, but I am under the impression that they did, and that they can depend on Mr. Latimer. Will you let me interrupt you just a moment? In what way did they lose them? I do not just follow you. Mr. Valentine. By the beneficial use of the water above them, as the water had not been filed on for them. Mr. Latimer. Did the court or some department rule upon it or decide upon it, and in that manner did they lose those water rights ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; I presume those settlers went in there, if the laws were like the laws of other parts of the country, and filed on this water and got in ahead of the Indians. That, under cer- tain rulings, would hardly be possible now. For instance, I call your attention to the Winters case in Montana, which gives us the right to use. all the water we need for the Indians, whether white people have filed or not. We can go in and take what we need for the Indians, which is a very good ruling. But the point I wanted to make down here was that whatever the legal ins and outs of the thing were, the facts, as stated in the old records, which I partly recollect and partly glanced over this noon, are that this settlement of the country took away the regular waters of the San Carlos Reser- vation, so that the Indians are now dependent for water on the flood waters or surplus or excess waters that come down in the spring, and it is those waters that this canal is built to catch, and I assume from that that there is no hope of using other water. Then, too, the various plans in the past that were made for dams in connection with irrigating the Pima Reservation were all at one time or another reported on adversely by engineers. There was at one time a project to build a dam costing between two and three millions at what is known as, I think. Twin Buttes; but they found when they looked into that that the rock was so rotten that there was no real bottom and there were no sides for a dam, so that the 128 EXPEWDITtTEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAE.TMBNT. situation, as it is being worked out now, is based on the fact that it was not possible to supply water directly across country froxn the south, so that this dam project at the Buttes was not feasible. Mr. Latimer. On what nver was that? Mr. Valentine. On the Gila. It was found that an old project, which is still semiaUve, of building a dam up at San Carlos and bringing the water away down from there was not feasible, and that the 01117 way, practically Mr. Geoege. Not feasible, why? Mr. Valentine. For engineering reasons, probably. What I wanted to make clear was that when the present Reclamation Service was decided upon, through the loss of all the other rights except the flood-water rights, and through inability to find a dam site, they were reduced to the drilling of wells and the use of the flood waters, and those two projects the Reclamation Service is now at work on, sinking the wells, and digging the ditch. And I ought to say right now, that this whole work is done on the Pima Reservation not by the irrigation service and its engineers, but by the Reclamation Service and its engineers. Our whole irrigation work in Indian affairs falls into two classes. We have a reclamation service of our own, and we also have some of our larger projects which we work under a cooper- ative agreement vnth the Reclamation Service. The idea was at one time to put practically all our projects under the Reclamation Service and have them act as our agents. Mr. Latimer. Is not your arrangement with the Reclamation Service in acting and working upon any reservation that the Reclamation Service is practically loaned to you and you pay for it? Mr. Valentine. That is the arrangement with regard to tms, here; but not with regard to a great deal of the work. For a great deal of the work we have our own reclamation service. Mr. Latimer. Yes; but when you use the regular Reclamation Service of the Interior Department you have no arrangement except to get them because it is cheaper and better and more practicable, and you pay them ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; we pay for the work, only we do it under a signed cooperative agreement with them. Mr. Latimer. Yes. Mr. Valentine. And they are conducting this work; and for any specific engineering details that the committee might be interested in, I think it would save the time of the committee to summon the Reclamation Service engineers in the matter. I simply pointed that out with the view of snowing that even our own reclamation engi- neers would not be as well informed on this as on some project that they had full charge of. Mr. Latimer. What is the source or nature of the subterranean water supply where you put in pumping stations ? Mr. Valentine. These western rivers have a habit of partly flow- ing above ground and partly disappearing underground and perhaps reappearing again. When I crossed the Gila last year it was an absolutely dry bed except, as I recall it, a little trickle down the mid- dle. We drove for three-quarters of a mile on dry sand and ex quick- sand; but that water has not by any means left the earth, but it is underneath. The wild horses frequently scrape it up in a place that looks so dry you would not think there was any water within 50 feet. This country is heavily underlaid with water. ' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPABTMENT. 129 The Chairman. Is not the Gila River known as one of the most dangerous streams of that section ? Mr. Valentine. It is a fierce stream. A man who is unfortunate enough to have to cross it in flood is always thankful afterwards if he gets across safe. The Chairman. It is one of those streams that floods easily and quickly and it is always dangerous, as I understand the popular idea of the Gila River? Mr. Valentine. It is full of silt. The Chairman. Is the contract that you have given us a rfeumS of one that the department had some litigation over with the water- users' association there? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I think not. You mean this contract? The Chairman. The one you just referred to, executed by Mr. Garfield? Mr. Valentine. I do not know about that, sir. My law officer tells me that he knows of no litigation on that contract. The Chairman. Does the contract that you refer to fit in now, after your explanation that you have given ? Would that be a good place to publish it, in the proceedings ? Mr. Valentine. I think so. The Chairman. Very well; just let it go in there This memorandum of an agreement, understanding, and plan entered into, had, and adopted by and between the United States of America (acting in this behalf by the- Secretary of the Interior, and hereinafter spoken of and designated as "the Govern- ment") of ;one part, and the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association (a corporation duly organized, existing, and doing business under and by virtue of the laws of the Territory of Arizona, and hereinafter spoken of and designated as "the said associa- tion") of the other part, for the con^derations, purposes, and objects and upon the representations in this memorandum hereafter set out and recited. Witnesseth: Whereas the Government is now engaged, under the authority of, and in accordance with the provisions therefor contained in, an act of Congress entitled "An act appropriating the receipts from the sale and disposal of public lands in certain States and Territories to the construction of irrigation works for the reclamation of arid lands," approved June 17, 1902 (commonly spoken of, and hereinafter designated when spoken of, as the "national irrigation act"), in the erection, construction, acqui- sition, and furnishing certain irrigation works in, across, and along Salt Eiver in said Territory of Arizona and in the valley known as the Salt River Valley, and generally comprehensively spoken of and designated as the Salt River Project, to assure a more certain, regular, and an increased supply of water for the reclamation, irrigation, and cultivation of the lands of the constituent members of the said association situate within the district of lands described in section 3 of the fourth of the articles of incorpo- ration of the said association; and Whereas, as a part of said project there will be the development and utilization of a large amount of water power for the generation of electric power to be transmitted from the several places of generation to places in said district and its vicinity for the pimip- ing of water for irrigation and for other purposes as well as for propelling machinery and supplying motive power in cities and towns and elsewhere within practical and con- venient distances from the places of the generation of the said electric power; and Whereas it is estimated by engineers and others well versed in the subject and con- nected under the employment of the Government with the designing, construction,, and utilization of said works under the provisions of said national irrigation act, that there will be developed for utilization a large amount of power in excess of that which may under any circumstances be utilized for pumping water for the irrigation of the lands of the members of said association; and Whereas it i? among the corporate powers of said association to transmit and use power to pump, distribute, deliyer, 9,nd ■ use water for all beneficial uses and pur- poses; and Whereas the said Government is desirous of, supplying to and for the use by Indians water for the irrigation of 10,000 acres of lands on and along the Gila River in Pinal and Maricopa Counties, in said Territory of Arizona, and within the Gila River Indian Reser- 130 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPABTMBNT. vation, and for the part accomplishment of that purpose to use 1,000 horsepower of the electric power generated and to be generated as aforesaid by the works constituting the said Salt River project, and for that purpose to transmit the same by proper and con- venient means of transmission forming constituent parts of said project to some conven- ient point on the south line of township 2 south, range 5 eastj G. and S. R.B.'and M. line, being on the north boundary line of said Indian reservation; and Whereas the Government is desirous and the said association is willing that the said Indians shall ultimately become constituent members of said association, but recog- nizes^ as does said association, that under neither the articles of incorporation of the said association nor under the provisions of the said national irrigation act can they become so until they shall have become owners in fee simple in severalty of the said lands occupied by them,' which now they are not; and Whereas the sum of $300,000 has been appropriated by Congress for expenditure by the Indian Bureau for the purpose of constructing or otherwise supplying works for the irrigation of the said Indian lands, of which |100,000 is immediately available for pay- ment upon account of the cost of the said Salt Eiver project and the extension of a transmission line therefrom to said south line of said township 2 south, range 5 east, in the event of the use thereof for supplying power as aforesaid to said Indians: Now therefore, lit is agreed that the Government shall, as a part of the Salt River project, construct and extend the proper transmission line or lines fromi the reservoir' district described as aforesaid in section 3 of the fourth article of incorporation to ssiid point on the said boundary line of said Indian reservation for the transmission to that point, and shall transmit by means of the same to that point, 1,000 horsepower of the electric power to be generated by said Salt River project, out of the excess power over and above that which may be needed for use by the members of said association, aa that membership is now or may be constituted under its articles of incorporation of said association, for the pumping of water for the irrigation of the lands of said members, within said district described in section 3, article 4, of the articles of incorporation of the said association. It is understood that from that point the Government will other- wise, and by means distinct and separate from the works constituting the Salt River project, and at cost not in any wise chargeable to said project, to said association, or to any of its members, as its membership is now constituted or as it shall be con- stituted under its articles of incorporation, receive, distribute, and use said power independently of and without either interference by or control or direction of saiaaso- ciation, and without any responsibility or car's of the association therefor. The Government shall pay or cause to be paid, as soon as that can be done in the course of auditing and disbursement, to the use of the Reclamation Service charged with the construction of the Salt River project, said sum of |100,000, out of said sum of $300,000 hereinbefore mentioned as having been appropriated by Congress to furnish the said Indians with a water supply for irrigation, or out of any other money available therefor except reclamation funds, which sum shall be credited to the Indian Bureau as a payment on the cost of irrigation works for said Indians and as well shall be cred- ited to the said association on account of the cost of construction of that part of said Salt River project hereinafter specified. The Government shall further pay, or cause to be paid, on account of the construction of the Roosevelt Reservoir, the power canal or canals, the erection of power houses and installation of necessary machinery and appliances therein, lines for the trans- mission of power and all other component parts of the said Salt River project, down to and including the lowest point of power development, the cost of wnich is to be, under the articles of incorporation of said association and under the provisions of an agreement between the said Government and the said association, evidenced bj= a written and duly signed and executed memorandum thereof bearing date the 28th day of June, 1904, assessed equally per acre to the owners of land who are members of said association, such further sum in addition to said $100,000 as shall, together with said 1100,000 in the aggregate equal that proportion of the whole cost of said mentioned parts of said project as 10,000 bears to the whole number of shares d the capital stock of said association which shall be legally issued (or the number of acres to which reservoir rights shall be issued and be appurtenant as provided in said articles and agreement) plus 10,000. In other words, that the lands of the Indians to theexte'at of 10,000 acres shall bear the same proportion of the cost of said works above specified as is provided in the articles of mcorporation of said association and in said contract between the Government and the said association shall be borne by the latids of the shareholders of the said association, equally acre for acre; said payments to be made ill like installments and at times which may be prescribed by the Secretary of the Interior, for payments by members of the said association for the payment of their proportion of said cost. ' ". EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPABTMENT. 131 In addition to such payments by the Government on account of construction as above provided for, there shall be paid by the Government for the delivery of said power as aforesaid for the repairs, renewals, betterments, maintenance, and operation of the Roosevelt Reservoir, the power canal or canals, the power houses, machinery arid appliances, lines for the transmission of power, and all other component parts of said Salt River project down to and including the lowest point of power development that proportion of the whole of such cost of such repairs, renewals, betterments, main- tenance, and operation as 10,000 bears to the whole number of shares of the capital stock of said association which shall have been legally issued, plus 10,000, at such times as such cost is assessed to and become payable by the members of said associa- tion under the articles of incorporation and by-laws of said association, it being intended to place said Indian lands in respect to the burden of the payment of such cost of repairs, renewals, betterments, maintenance, and operation above specified upon the same basis of computation as the lands of the members of said association. Whenever the Indians on said reservation shall become the owners severally in fee simple of their lands and be enabled to contract concerning them as fully and freely and to the same effect as the members of said association now are or may be, the extent of lands, including said 10,000 acres, shall be by the said association, if so directed by the Secretary of the Interior (or other officer of the Government then exercising the same powers relating to the matter as are now vested in the Secretary of the Interior), annexed to and be deemed a part of the reservoir district described in said section 3 of the fourth article of incorporation of said association, and said Indians may then subscribe for shares of the capital stock of said association and become members and shareholders of said association for every purpose and with the same rights, privileges, and benefits and with like liabilities of themselves and of their lands as are other members of said association: Provided, however, That no more than the owners of 10,000 acres of said Indian lands may become shareholders without the further con- sent at the time by formal expression of the said association given: And frovided fur- ther. That said association shall be under no obligation to supply (nor shall said Gov- ernment supply by means of any works constituting a part of or connected with said Salt River project) any more than 1,000 horsepower at said south line of township 2 south, range 5 east, unless it be by and under a new, further, separate, and other agreement, understanding, and plan subsequent to this, and as formally expressed, with the full consent of said association. It is further agreed and understood that the said association shall not be liable in any different degree or to any greater extent for a failiue, either by the Government or by itself, to supply said power as herein agreed upon, either to the Indians or to any- one, or to the Government representing them, than it may be to its own shareholders for like default, neglect, or failure. It is further agreed and understood that the Government may not, .and that the association shall not be obliged, either under the terms of this contract or after the Indians may have become shareholders of the said association in pursuance of it, to furnish any water, whether pumped or from the smface, from the natural flow of the water courses or of stored water or of developed water, to any of the lands of the Indians within said reservation; the sole obligation being that of delivering electric power to the reservation line as expressed in this memorandum. Nothing in this agreement shall be deemed to modify or in any wise alter, change, or affect the agreement between said Government and said association the memoran- dum whereof was signed and executed on the 25th day of June, 1904, but shall be deemed supplementary thereto; and all the terms of that agreement, as well as the provisions of the articles of incorporation of said association shall be read with this memorandum for fuller explanation and expression of the intent of the parties hereto and of the purposes sought to be accomplished. . .In witness whereof, the Secretary of the Interior, acting in that behalf for the Govern- ment, has, on this 3d day of June, 1907, set his hand and affixed his seal of office, and the president and secretary of the said association, duly thereunto authorized by an order of the board of governors of said association, have this 11th day of May, 1907, set their hands and caused the seal of said association to be hereunto affixed to duplicates hereof. ■ . [seal.] Jambs Rudolph Ga.-rvi-eli>, Secretary of the Interwr. Salt RivEH Valley Watek Usees' Association. B. A. Fowler, Presirf«ni. Frank H. Parker, Secretary. 132 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. Mr. Latimek. Was that contract the result of Utigation between the GoTernjnent, representing the Indians, and the water users' as^- ciation, which last association buUt a dajtn across the GUa River, cutting off the water supply of the Pima Indians ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. I have never read the contract. Mr. Latimer. Then you do not know of any such litigation? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. I should assume that there might have been some. Oh, I do remember that there were several times when the United States attorney was directed to protect the rights of the Indians, from 1886 and 1891 down. Mr. Latimer. My understanding is that for a number of years there, there was more or less constant friction. Mr. Valentine. There was a great deal of it ; yes. Mr. Latimer. Would you give us just a short history of that, to-morrow ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. That is, assuming he can not give it now ? Mr. Latimer. Mr. George suggests that I nave not made mysglf clear in reference to your giving that now. Mr. Valentine. It seems possibly unnecessary to do that. I will just call the attention of the committee to the fact that in the report of 1904, beginning on page 7, extending from page 7 to the top of page 21, Commissioner Jones makes a very extensive statement of the history, down to that date, of the whole GUa irrigation troubles. They have been, as I have heard of them historically in the Indian Office, one of the most fruitful sources of trouble that the Indian Office has ever had. Mr. Latimer. With that suggestion the committee will pass that for the present, if you please. Is the land that is supplied with water from the Salt River irrigation project adjoining this Gila River land, or if not,,how far apart are the two, if you know, in a general way? Mr. Valentine. I do not know whether they are adjoining or not. Perhaps this wiU give you the idea. The main use of the water from the Roosevelt Dam — that is the Salt River project — is to supply between 150,000 and 200,000 acres in what is known as the Phoenix Valley, and in order to go the way I went to the Pima Reservation, for example, I left Phoenix, and I think came down to Florence on the train, and through Mesa, and it will be just the barest statement of a layman, but as I recall the country, the Pima Reservation would not be able to hitch onto any canals on account of its levels. Mr. Latimer. Now, your Salt River Reservation is entirely de- pendent for irrigation on the Salt River irrigation project ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; but they can get it in two ways. The Salt River can get either the actual water, or can pump. Mr. Latimer. You mean the actual water, oy cutches? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Pima is confined, so far as water from the Salt River project goes, to the electric power. Mr. Latimer. Have you any pumping stations on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I think not. Mr. Latimer. Have you plans for establishing any ? Mr. Valentine. Not to my knowledge. I have not thought of any. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 133 Mr. Latimer. Is it the contemplation that in solving the Salt River problem, you will do so entirely by ditches ? :Vir. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. From the Roosevelt Dam ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; that is, principally water supplied by the Roosevelt Dam. Mr. George. Yes, precisely. Mr. Latimer. Is there any other reservation we have named that is dependent solely upon the Roosevelt Dam water, aside from the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Valentine. I know of none. Mr. Latimer. The question of water rights in the Roosevelt Dam project intermingled with the Camp McDowell water rights, did it not ? Mr. Valentine. I do not knov/ that I quite understand you. Mr. Latimer. Was not the question of water rights for the water that naturally belonged to, or was located upon, Camp McDowell Reservation taken into consideration and intermingled with the rights of the Roosevelt Dam water — the Salt River water? Mr. Valentine. Supposed to be in this way, that the water pass- ing down the Verde would enter the Salt ; but there would be no rela- tion between the water rights, because only such water would come down the Verde as would be let pass by any irrigation project on the Verde. Mr. Latimer. Have you plans for allotments to any specific tribes in Arizona now under way or nearing completion ? Mr. Valentine. I think we are actually allotting the Salt River Indians, and the allotment is either just begun, or will shortly begin, of the Pima Reservation, and then we also have made this offer of 5 acres apiece to the Camp McDowell Indians on a part of the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Latimer. What tribes are you putting on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. We got the original Executive order changed so that we could place on the Salt River Reservation not only Pimas and Maricopas, but any other Indians that it might seem wise to give allotments to on that reservation. Mr. Latimer. Has the Salt River Reservation been surveyed ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. I think that is one of the questions I was asked to look up. Mr. George. Where are the Pima and Maricopa Indians now? Mr. Valentine. They five on the Pima Reservation and on the Salt River Reservation, and five on the pubhc domain south of the Pima Reservation. Mr. George. The intention is to remove them to the allotted space? Mr. Valentine. No ; the Indians on these two reservations will be allotted right where they are Uving. The Indians who live south of the reservation have been provided for by two Executive order reservations very recently carved out of the public domain, so as to give them a place. Mr. Latimer. What reservations are those? ; Mr. Valentine. One of them was withdrawn on April 3 last and is exactly south of the west end of the Pima Reservation and includes about four townships. 98240— No. 5—11 3 134 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEJeAKimJiiN x. Mr. Latimer. Known as what reservation now ? Mr. Valentine. I do not think we have named it. There were Indians living on the public domain, there, and we thought we would divide it off for them; so that it amounts, in effect, to an extension of the Pima Reservation. The other reservation was withdrawn March 19, 1911, two weeks earlier, and amounts to, I should say, a httle less than a township. That is just south of the Black Water district of the Pima Reservation. Then we have further asked for the survejr of this land farther south, here, so that we can locate these wandering Indians here and possibly ask for a withdrawal there. Mr. George. Does that mean you are going to take Indians off the Gila Reservation and put them on this Maricopa Reservation— on these two new reservations ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. George. Where are you going to get the Indians ? Mr. Valentine. They are there. Mr. George. They are on these places ? Mr. Valentine. They are in these places. Mr. George. They are off the reservations ? Mr. Valentine. They are off the reservations and Hve in this country .to the south which is under the public domain, under the jurisdiction of the General Land Office, and when we want to get them under our jurisdiction we ask for these areas, and the Presi- dent, by proclamation, or possibly the Secretary — I do not know who made those two proclamations, I do not recall — withdraws these specific areas which constitute, in fact, an Executive-order reservation. Mr. Catlin. How much land is in those reservations ? Mr. Valentine. That would be about five townships that have been provided. How many acres are there in a township? It would be 36 times 640. The Chairman. That would be 23,040 acres. Mr. Valentine. Twenty-three thousand and fort}' acres in a town- ship, and there are about five townships, so that it would be about 100,000 acres. The Chairman. One hundred and fifteen thousand two hundred. Mr. Latimer. What do you designate as wandering Indians ? Mr. Valentine. Perhaps I should not have used the words "wan- dering Indians"; but these Indians out on the public domain here, without any specific homes. They are squatters, just as you or I would be if we had herds — some of them have herds — and they are drifting from place to place, wherever they can get water and grass, so that they are slightly nomadic ; and our object through this country is to locate those Indians and see if we can not give them a place where they can make an actual home and perhaps get a little water from some streams and settle down; and wherever we find enough Indians on the public domain fairly settled we ask for the withdrawal of those areas. So we have made those two withdrawals and have asked for a survey in the interest of the Indians of this whole country south to the Mexican line. Mr. George. On these two parts that have been withdrawn, these new additions to the Gila Reservation, and then the contemplated reservation, where do you get water there ? Mr. Valentine. There may be streams. I do not know. I have not been in there yet. But if it were necessary to dig wells there, EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAETMENT. 135 there would still be power available under our contract with the Roose- velt Dam to supply power down to those areas. Mr. George. I will call your attention to the fact that this new reservation to the eastward of Sacaton comes into that below, that you spoke of as the alkahne belt, and therefore it seems it would be unadvisable to go there with wells. Mr. Valentine. No ; the belt I spoke of hes chiefly north of the Gila River. Mr. George. I thought you said east of Sacaton. Mr. Valentine. Yes; but you will notice that the bulk of the reservation is north of the river, east of Sacaton. In that it has been found very little advisable to dig wells anywhere south of the reser- vation; but you will notice here what iadicates mountains on the map. It is more up in the foothills, and of course the alkali gathers most in the valleys by seeping down in the ground from the rains. Mr. George. And the intention is to give a place to the Indians not on this reservation and not to disturb the Indians on the Gila Reservation, but to take the wandering tribes outside of those res- ervations and give them new lands ? Mr. Valentine. Absolutely. Mr. Latimer. A great many, or most, of these Indians were all living on this public-domain land before you made it a reservation? Mr. Valentine. Yes; this is west of the Papago Reservation. Mr. Latimee. What improvements have they made ? Mr. Valentine. Some of them have little garden patches ; but they are mostly stock-raising Indians, not agricultural Indians like the Gila River Pimas. These Pimas and Papagos down here have herds. The country is full of draws, as they are known in the West. Mr. Latimer. Are you contemplating allotting those new reserva- tions ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Have you plans under way now ? Mr. Valentine. I think not. Of course these maps were drawn just a few months ago. Mr. Latimer. Under what authority do you allot those Indians on a reservation created as the ones you have just described? Mr. Valentine. The act of June 25, 1910, gives us authority on all Executive-order reservations to allot lands in such areas as the Sec- retary of the Interior may designate, 80 acres of agricultural land and not to exceed 40 acres of irrigable land, or 1 60 acres of grazing land. Mr. Latimer. Forty acres of irrigable land ? Mr. Valentine. Not to exceed that. Mr. Latimer. Whether it is 1 acre or 40 acres is entirely discre- tionary, the way you interpret the law, with the Secretary of the Interior ? Mr. Valentine. Exactly. It would depend a great deal on the altitude as to what the amoimt should be. The Chairman. The question was not quite that, as I understood it, but rather as to the extent of your discretion ? Mr. Valentine. The extent of our discretion is that it means any- where between and 40. The Chairman. Forty acres or any amount between 1 acre and 40 acres? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. 136 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEi-AJrtiiviJ^xN j.. Mr. George. ¥/ho exercises this executive function of making a reservation Iry Executive order ? Mr. Valentixe. In this case these two reservations were -with- drawn by the Secretary of the Interior. There are two ways of with- drawing' lands from the public domain. One is known as an Execu- tive withdrawal, which is always made b* the President, and the other is a departmental withdrawal, which is always made by the Secretary of the Interior, like the withdrawal you have all heard so much about, about ]50wer sites and reclamation and reservoir sites. ^ir. George. Has an Executive-order reservation ever been parted with by Indians sui.'sequently ? Mr. V.vlextine. Yes; there have been a mmiber of instances of diminished Executive-order reservations. Mr. George. Where the lands were taken out of the public domaia, reserved for the Indians, and then allotted or otherwise, but parted with by the Indians subsequently < Mr. Valkntixe. I do not recall, but I should imagine there must have been certain readjustments of that kind. I would be very glad to see if our records show any particular areas diminished from Exccutivo-ordfT reservations. Mr. Hexsley. Let me see if I understand you, Mr. George. Do 3-0U mean tliat the Indians can alienate their property, their land§, alter the ExecutiN'e order has gone into force and effect f Mr. George. Yes-; whether or not they liavi^ been alienated by the Indians. "Whether these lands have been withdrawn from the pub- lic domain by Executive order and whether in any instances those lands have sjone into any hands other than those of the Indians, sub- se(|uently. Mr. Hexsley. Yes. Mr. Valentixe. 1 can cite y^n vn instance of that right now, in eastern s( iithern ('alifcrnia. There were a great many small reserva- tions there created, ajid 1 am c[uite (ciiain that tliey were all Execu- tive order leservations, and in some cases it was found that the par- ticular lands that the Indians liad been using were not the best , adapted; for instance, m.t the best adapted on account of water con- ditions; and I recall there that there ^\(•le some cases where parts of sections or townships ^\ ere exchanged so that the Indians could get better lands. Mr. George. It v as f.ir the benefit^of the Indians? Ml-. A^aeentine. Oh, yes. Ml-. George. AVas it ever discovered that the lands in California had any other vaiiu' otlier than I heir agricultural value (I Did they ever have any mineral value 'f Mr. Y'alextixe. I do not think that ever applied to those lands. We nmv on all ^csc^^'atiMns make a very careful study of forest value and of mineral or of coal or oil value before wc do anything with the lands. For ex.ample, the Geological 8ur^■ey is now under request, i making a vety careful stu-dy of the Camp McDowell Reservation to see whethei- there is any coal muk'r it or not. They liave recently made a vci-y careful study of the Navajo Reservation,'and have found in this Black Mountain Reservation some of the. finest coal in the SouthwesL great areas of it. Air. George. AATien was this request made by the Indian Bureau? Air. A'aeextixe. I coidd not tell vou ; sometime \\ithin two weete. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 137 Mr. George, During your term of office ? Mr. Vat.entixe. Yes; I think Mr. George. Within what time ? fiir. Valentine (continuing). Within a few weeks. I do not remember exactly. xNjr. George. That is on an Executive order reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; we do it alike on Executive order or treaty reserv;^tions. Mr. Latimer. By a treaty reservation you mean one created by an act of Conc:r;>,s, do you not 1 Mr. Valentine. Not fully that. A treaty reservation is one where, under a tre;'.ty, the Government has made a reservation. A treaty might superimpose on the Executive order reservation, and it still wou'd. ncit lie a trci'.ty reservation. Mr. Latimer. Under what law is an E.xecutive order reservation creoted out of puhlic lands * Mr. A'alentine. I looked that up a month or two ago in connec- tion V, ith the Aiescalero Reservation. Mr. ivieritt tells me that the general allotment act recognizes the right of the President; but as I recall it there is a decision I\ir. Latimer. That is the allotment act of 1910? Mr. Meritt. Of 1887. Mr. Latimer. Amended when? Mr. Meritt. Amended V)}^ the act of June 5, 1910. Mr. Valentine. And, as I recall it, there is a decisicn of the Supreme Court which upholds the right of the President, under his- general jjowers, to create Indian reservations out of tlie p,ublic domain, on tlie ground !Mr. Latimer. Yes; by Executive order ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; by Executive order — on the ground that, as the court found, the Indian policy of the Government was a 'j)ublic purpose, and that there is some statute which says that for public purposes the President may create or lay aside parts of the public domain. Mr. Latimer. Can you give us a reference to that to-morrow ? Mr. Valentine. I will give you a reference to those two decisions to-morrov/. • Mr. George. If I am not breaking in, I v.'ould like to ask about this Camp JIcDowell. Mr. Latimer. Certainty. Mr. George. That is an Executive order reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. And lias Indians en it ? Mr. Latimer. If you will pardon me, it is partly Executive and partly purchase. Mr. Valentine. Yes; that is true. Mr. George. Perhaps jou have that in mind, Mr. Latimer? Mr. Latimer. Yes. Mr. George. Perhaps I can fit my cjuesticns into that, if they do not arise from what you say. Mr. Latimer. In reference to allotting on these two reservations, Mr. Valentine, is it your purpose to allot lands in those two reserva- tions to Indians from other reservations ? Mr. Valentine. You mean by the two reservations, these two ? 138 BXPBNDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPAETMENT. Mr. Latimer. The two new ones you just told us about. Mr. Valentine. No ; the purpose simple is to allot. Mr. Latimer. To allot to the Indians that are on there now? Mr. Valentine. Yes; to the Indians that are on there now, or might be livins; on the pubHc domain; yes, sir. They are made for the purposes of public-domain Indians and not in any connection with the Indians on the Pima. Mr. Latimer. ¥/hat is your practice in reference to allotment to Indians of that character — do you take into consideration whether they want the allotment or do not want it ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. Do you do that under any rule of law or simply out of kindness to the Indians ? Mr. Valentine. It is a well-established policy of the office. I do not know that there is any law that would compel us to consult the Indians about it, but it is so obviously the right and the easiest way way to accomplish the result, that I have never known of a case where it was not done. Mr. Latimer. Did you ever know of a case where Indians were allotted lands or moved to a smaller reservation or a different reserva- tion, against their consent, in the last 10 years? Mr. Valentine. I know of none; no, sir. Mr. Latimer. If it is not a law, you say it is an established prac- tice, that you would move no tribes without their consent to the removal, and you would make no allotments without their consent to be allotted ; is that correct ? Mr. Valentine. I should absolutely that I would mave no tribe without its consent. I would not be willing to say absolutely that I would make no allotments without their consent, any more than I would be willing to say absolutely that I would not educate Indian children without the consent of their parents. Mr. Latimer. Can you give us an illustration of where you have made any allotments without the consent of the Indians ? Mr. Valentine. I recall no such case. Mr. Latimer. Whatever allotment has been made up to date, therefore, to the best of your recollection, has been with the consent of the Indians receiving the lands ; is that correct ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. You see, I might add there, in explanation, that any other way would be a pure paper allotment. Perhaps the committee does not fully understand the way allotments are made when they are made right. The Indian himself selects the place he wants, and the allotting agent goes with him. Mr. Latimer. So that you have his consent? Mr. Valentine. That is substantially his consent. That is the way the bulk of the allotments are made. I do know of many cases on a reserviition where certain of the Indians stood out against the allotment, and refused to come in and be allotted, that the allot- ing agent, instead of leaving that section of the countrj^ unallotted, would set aside a number of allotments. That happened on the Pine Ridge Reservation. When I was out there several years ago all the Indians on the Pine Ridge Reservation were apy)arently glad to have allotments, and went out with a good deal of enthusiasm, exceptthe White River Indians on the west end of the Pine Ridge Reservation. The allotting agent sent out there with his men came back, like the ' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 139 King of France, without making any allotments, and afterwards before going out of that country altogether, he went down there and made quite a number of arbitrary allotments, so that the Indians would laave a place to go when they finally turned in with tlie rest of the tribe. A somewhat similar situation occurred on the White Earth Reservation in Minnesota, and is talcing place there to-day by my orders. 'I he Mille Lac Indians were ordered to be removed — perhaps I should not say that they were ordered to be removed — ^but the act of Congress directed that they be given allotments on the White Earth Reservation — and for a number of years there has been going on a process know"n as the Mille Lac removal. Ihat is what it is technically known as. We send an agent, sometimes the White Earth agent and sometimes the Mille Lac supervisor, and ask them if they do not want to go over and take their allotments on the Wliite Earth, and some of them go, and then they return. I have felt that enough land should be set aside on the White Earth Reservation to pro\ide for all the possible future Mille Lacs that might want it. I do not know that it would be necessary to allot it. Mr. George. Where is this Wlaite Earth Reservation? Mr. Valentine. In Minnesota. Those are the two cases that I recall offhand of allotments without the direct consent of the Indians. Mr. Latimer. What, if any, difference exists as to the removal of Indians from a reservation created by Executive order and one created by treaty ? Mr. Valentine. There would be a great distinction in two ways. I think it is a mooted point, but I think it has been raised, as to whether the President when he had once made an Executive order reservation could unmake it. I tliink it has been held in certain quarters that it would take an act of Congress to unmake it, and if that is the case, as far as the actual title that would be lost to the Indians, or threatened of the Indians, is concerned, there would be no difference between an Executive order reservation and a treaty reservation. Such title as the Indians had would still remain, even if they were put off by mihtary force. When it comes to the actual method of a removal, the only forcible removals I can recall were the attempt to remove Chief Joseph onto a reservation, and not off of it, and the removal of the Poncas. Mr. Latimer. I did not intend to get into that. Mr. George. As I understand it his answer is that the right would remain on either an Executive order reservation or a treaty reserva- tion. Mr. Valentine. Of course I am not so sure about it on an Executive order reservation, but I am sure about it on a treaty reservation. Mr. Latimer. That is, the right of the Indians would remain even if they did remove ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, for any reasonable time it would remain, as a matter of law, under Executive order as under a treaty reserva- tion, unless the Indians voluntarily wished to give it up. Mr. Latimer. What do you mean by "voluntarily" and what right do you think they can surrender ? Mr. Valentine. Well, if a tribe wanted to move out of the coun- try and said they never wanted to go back to that place, there would be no particular point in either the President or the Congress, what- ever was the authority, keeping that land as a reservation. 140 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Latimer. If they select land in some other reservation that the Government has offered them, and move there, that, in your judgment, vacates any right to the property from which they niove? Mr. Valentine. Yes, unless they had some legal title in it, in wliicli case it would be sold. Mr. Latimer. But they leave a reservation Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. And move elsewhere and take a reservation else- where ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Tlic Chairman. The Indians being the wards of the Government and being under a legal disability, how could any act of theirs deprive them of the title of the land they lived on any more than a minor could deprive himself of his property by selling it ? Mr. Valentine. Well, of course, I jjerhaps ought to tell the com- mittee that I am not a lawyer, although that may be plain enough from my testimony. But in all tlie trosUics tliat the Government made with Indians up until 1872, and in nil the agreements that have been made since, the Government has apjiarcntly recognized, even among noncitizcn Indians, a right to treat and to abandon. You take the case of the Turtle Mountain Indians, who treated with the Government for years and finally gave up, for a million dollars, all except two townships of the Turtle Mountain Reservation. There seems to be a case where the Government and Congress have recog- nizetl that Indians could have a right to sell such Indian title as they possess; although, of course, you are aware that under the Lone Wolf decision the Supreme Court of the United States has held that the fee even of treaty reservations is absolutely in the Government of the United States and not in the Indians. The Chairman. Absolutely or in trust!' Mr. Valentine. I think it has been claimed tliat except for public opinion the Government would have the legal ])oa\ er to dispose of even a treaty reservation away from the Iixhans. The Chairman. Can you cite us that decision ? Mr. Valentine. That is the Lone Vvolf decision, given, I think, in 190.3. Mr. Meritt. It is ]S7 U. S., 553. Mr. George. In what court was that? j\Ir. Valentine. Tlie Supreme Court of the United iStates. Mr. George. That the Government can dispose of tlie land of its wards ? Mr. Valentine. Well, I would put it this way. I did not put it uite that way. I said that under the intt-rpretation of that decision tlie fee being in the Unitod States, if the Government of the United States should determine tii.at some other arranxemeut was better for certain Indians, I think it would probal)ly have t.'ie absolute power to make such an arrangement without even consulting the Indians. But, of course, pubhc opinion would turn out of ofSce in short order any administration that would do such a thing. Mr. George. But does the department interpret that decision as giving to an Executive order the same powers that Congress might exercise ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. George. By Executive order, to a' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 141 Mr. Valentine. No, sir; not by any means. Mr. George. What authority do j^ou follow in removing an Indian from one reservation, legalljr assigned and left thereon, to lands you allot to him on a different reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Will you please repeat the first part of that question ? Mr. George. What authority do 3^ou follow in removing an Indian legally assigned to one reservation and living thereon to lands which you allot to him on a different reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I personally should follow only one authority, and that would be the wish of the Indian to go. Mr. Latimer. "What is the rule of your department % Have you riot some rule in reference to that % Is there not some law governing you, or some regulation of Congress, or something that you recognize ? Mj. Valentine. Not that I know of, sir. The Chairman. Just at that point let me ask you this. If the Indian accepted the reservation and did go, and it turned out that he lost by going, would he be bound, or could he renege % Mr. Valentine. I should say he would have a claim against the Government for the loss that he suffered. Mr. LxiTiMER. But he would have to establish fraud, would he not ? Mr. Valentine. Not necessarily. I should think he would have an equitable claim. Mr. Latimer. In other words, the guardian i;niy deal vdth his ward, but the burden is on the guardian to see that the ward does not suffer loss. Mr. Valentine. Absolutely. Mr. Latimer. If he does, the guardian is absolutely liable to the extent of the loss of the ward. Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. So that if the Indian is induced by the Govern- ment or its agent to go from a location on one reservation to a location on another, if it turned out that he lost thereby the Governm,ent would be liable to him for the diiTerenee between ■^^■hat he got and what he gave up ? Mr. Valentine. It would certainly be morally so as an adminis- trative question. Not being a lawyer, as I say, 1 am nnsv eiing these questions fearlessly, in a m ay that might not be slrictly legal. Mr. Latimee. I think we all appreciate that; but you certninly ought to Jiave some rule by which you are guidod. "j ou are doing that; you are moving Indians from one reservation, who are IcR'ally entitled to be there, and allotting to them lands on another resrrrva- tion, and you ouglit to have some rule, some law, that governs it, I should think; that is what I am getting at. ilr. Valentine. Under the general organic law of the Indian Bureau the commissioner is charged with the best interests of ^ the Indians; and if I thought, for e^rample, that it was iK:tter for Indians to change their habitat, I should consider it my duty to put that change- before them and do everything possible to induce them to make it; but if, after the best effort that I could put forward in that way, they did not do it, it would be absolutely unthinkable that you would compel them to make it. Mr.' Latimer. You would get their consent as a matter of fair play and kindness toward them rather than as a recognition that- thev bad any legal rights? 142 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. No; I should not say that. I should say they had most decided legal rights under the general purposes of the Indian Bureau, of treatment for their best interests. Mr. Latimer. But the fact of your gaining their consent would not be governed by the fact that they had a legal property right in the reservation from which 3^ou were taking them ? That would not influ- ence the fact of your getting their consent at all, would it, if I under- stand you correctly ? Mr. Valentine. Well, I am not sure I understand just exactly your question, but any property fight that an Indian had m his reservation would remain whether he stayed or went, and the only v/ay that could be disposed of would be in so far as he, or the Congress for him, gave it up in return for something that was obviously for his better inter- ests. Mr. Latimer. Possibly I misunderstood 3^ou a little earlier. I thought you said that the Indian surrendered his legal rights if he voluntarily left or deserted one reservation and accepted an allotment on another. That, I understood, was your statement a little while Mr. Valentine. He could only surrender his legal right in so far as he had a legal right to act for himself in some regular way or in so far as Congress, as his guardian, acted on his behalf. No executive offi- cer, certainly, could make any such arrangement. Mr. Hensley. You stated awhile ago that if he suffered the Gov- ernment would be the party against whom he would have his claim? Mr. Valentine. Certainly. Mr. Hensley. Do you know of any instance of that kind, where the Indian has suffered by reason of a change of that character, and then has claimed damages against the Government and recovered them? Mr. Valentine. I think there is a Winnebago claim, or possibly it is an Omaha claim, of the decrease of a reservation that the Indians claimed that they were not paid for in full. Mr. Meritt. That is in Ninth Court of Claims. Mr. Valentine. Then there was a very famous decision in the Ute case. I know of very few cases of removal such as your ques- tions are leading along, but I do know of many cases where a big reservation has been diminished and the Indians have afterwards claimed, and gone into the Court of Claims and gotten, large sums of money on account of having been inadequately paid for those lands that were taken from them. Mr. Latimer. Let us be a little more specific, Mr. Valentine. What would be the practice of your department if the Camp McDoweD Indians, for example, were to accept 5 acres of land in the Salt River Reservation and move thereon and abandon Camp McDowell; what would be the practice of your department as to their legal right that they stdl had, if any, in Camp ]\IcDowell ? Mr. Valentine. Of course that is a purely hypothetical question, because there has never been any question of abandoning that. Mr. Latimer. Yes; I put it that way so as to make it a little clearer to all of us. Mr. Valentine. Yes. I simply said it was a hypothetical ques- tion, because there has been no question of abandoning the Cfamp McDowell Reservation. EXPENDITTJKES IN THE INTEBIOR DBPABTMENT. 143 Mr. Latimer. Yes; I was assuming that to be true. Mr. Valentine. Yes; but I say this, that as long as those Indians taking these lands made any use of the other lands, or still retained their homes, or still retained the lands for grazing or pastures, or went up into the mountains for timber, or in any way made use of that reservation, neither the President nor the Congress would take it away from them. But, to answer your hypothetical question just as directly as I can, supposing these Camp McDowell Indians went down to the Salt River Reservation and took allotments there and moved all their goods and furniture and asked to have their school removed, and everything wejmt with them, just as Abraham in the days of old might absolutely move out of a country; then I should say that it would be a question for the Attorney General to decide as to what was the legal title of the Indians to the Camp McDowell Res- ervation; and that would depend, of course, on the wording of the original order, as to whether it was established for their use only, and their lack of use properly brought the reservation to an end so far as they were concerned, or whether they had some actual title in it, even though not on it, and consequently owned their land or the pro- ceeds of the land, or the coal or the timber or the water rights that might be on it. Our department, except in so far as such a case might have strong precedents, would certainly not act without the authority of the Department of Justice in a matter of that kind, and I know of no such precedents. Mr. Latimer. Does not your office take into consideration the property right of an Indian who is legally established upon one reservation before you move him or allot him, even by consent, to another reservation ? Mr. Valentine. If there were any question of removal, I should say we most decidedly should. Mr. Latimer. There has been some question, as I understand it, in reference to the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation. Have you considered that feature at all in reference to that transfer ? Mr. Valentine. Yie have never considered it in any way from the point of view of a removal. I have heard that term frequently used here, but I thought probably my time would come, as it has now, to explain. Mr. Latimer. Right here would you give us a little history of what your department is trying to do and the reasons for it by either removal or allotment, either way you wish to term it, of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Our engineers have reported that to main- tain irrigation on the Camp McDowell Reservation would be a very expensive proposition, and that a much less expensive proposition would be for such irrigable lands as those Indians wished to use, to put the water on those lands on the Salt River Reservation and to give the Indians allotments, additional to their Camp McDowell holdings, on the Salt River Reservation. In other words, the Indians would retain the Camp McDowell Reservation and make such use of it as they wished, but the department felt that it was sinking money in the sand to go on repairing ditches, or even to go into an attempt at making a permanent irrigation structure, on the Camp McDowell Reservation, when within 5 miles from the south end of the reserva- 1'44 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT." tion and 15 miles from the north end of the reservation was an area of better land under water, or easiljr put under water, at a much less -cost. About last February — I think it was February or January— a young woman who had been studying Indian conditions in that country, a student at Oxford, named" Miss Freyre-Marreco, being at my house for dinner one night, when we had been talking about the Pueblo Indians, said: "Mr. Valentine, do not move the Camp McDowell Indians." I told her that I had no knowledge of any attempt to move them. That brought the matter to my attention. i\[r. Latimer. That was the first that you had heard in reference to any removal or allotment of the Camp McDowell Indians ? Mr. Valentine. That was the first I recall of its being brought to my attention. I would not say that I had not referred to it in some shape before that. Mr. George. When was that ? Mr. 'N'alentine. In January of this year. I asked her why the Camp McDowell Indians should not be moved. Her main answer was, the altitude. She said: "Those Indians are used to living up there in the mountains, in the timber, and it would be very bad for them to change their home." So I looked into the matter, and I found that such steps had been taken, which, so far as I could see from our records, did not involve any removal. She evidently got the idea that it was current in that country that there was some talk of removal. For the use of the committee I wanted to put that before them. Mr. Latimer. There has been considerable correspondence with reference to that situation, I imderstand. Have j'ou read it at all? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Latimer. In none of that have you found anything touching on the question of removal, in any way ? Mr. Valentine. Oh, yes. Mr. Latimer. It has been quite fully discussed, has it not ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The whole correspondence came to my desk a day or two before I had to leave town on account of illness, and I was goin'i' ove-,' it at that time. One of the letters that was put there for my initialing and for the signature of the Secretary was a letter which ai)])ears in a memorial which I believe was published by Mr. Stevens's committee and signed by Mr. Secielaiy Fisher, and another letter, I think, was signed l)y ili'. Hauke after' I left town; but my absence from town at that time cut short my studies into the Camp McDowell situation, and it is only since my return, in such time as I have had in the last day or two", that I have hxdied over it, and I have read practically all of Dr. Jiontezuma's records, and practically all otlicr such matters as I could lay my hands on. Air. Latimer. I fave you any knowledj^e as to what steps have been taken on the Salt Mhev Reservation for ilie purpose of allotting these Camp JlcDowell Indians? Mr. Valentine. ?-[(), sir. Mr. Latimer. Will you kindly ascertain, so that vou can give it to us at your next hearing, what steps, in full, and when they were taken, m either surveying, preparing, selecting, or otherwise desig- nating land on the Salt River Reservation, for the express purpose of putting the Camp McDowell Indians on it there? EXPENDlTUKJliy I^i THK liMTEKiUK DEPARTMENT. 145 Mr. Valentine. Yes. I would like to limit that in one way. I would not call it ''iDutting them," but piving them additional land on the Salt River Reservation. You wish, as I understand it, a chronological history of the various steps, such as are m.entioned, leading up to the advances made to the Indians such as arc mentioned in Dr. Montezuma's letters? Mr. Latimer. What actually has been done in the way of work on the Salt River Reseivalion tn take care of the proi)iised allotments to the Camp McDowell Indians? I do not care whether you call it removal, or what you call it. VjV. Valentine. I simph" did not want to be understood as con- senting to the word "removal." Mr. Latimer. I am not seeldng in the ylighiest to take any advan- tage of the word "removal." That is net what I am getting at. Mr. V.vlentine. Mr. Merritt tells m.e that the whole fde, so far as he knows, on that question, is in the hands (f the Cirmmittee, so that I should have no material from wliich to make thi:; study. Mr. Latijier. If you find that you have an account sliowing the expenditure of money charged to the Camp McDowell Indians used on Salt River, that is the principal thing I want to get at. Mr. V.\i>EXTiNE. I see; yes, of course. Mr. Latimer. If I understand it, Mr. Valentine, to be peifectly frank — and if I am wrong I want to be corrected in every way — there has been an expenditure for surveying, there have been certain spe- cific amouFits expended Mr. Valentine. On the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Latimer. On tJio Salt River Reservation — or allotments have been made, some of them have been selected, and in so doing there must have been more or less expense connected with it; and if so, I want to get at what has been spent arid when it was spent, as to this particidar land. Mr. VjVLENtine. Of course our books will show ;ill expenditures. I will give to the committee in the morning a complete statement from our books of the monSy transactions. The GiiAirai.vN. In order that I may get the situation clearly in my «iind, about how long a distance in the Verck' Valley is now occupied by the Camp McDowell Indians ? '^Ir. Valentine. As my map shows, it is about 10 miles north and south, roughly speaking, on the Verde River. The Chairman. Is all that distance inhabited by Indians, and do they extend the entire 10 miles? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir; I have never been there mvself. The Chairman. What is the probable width of the Verde A'' alley that is irrigated ? Mr. Valentine. I know that about 1,300 acres in th.c valley are considered irrigable, but just what part of it that covers I do not know. The Chairman. Do you know whether it is on both sides of the river or only on one side ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know. The Chairman. From the extreme south end of the Verde A'aUey, where the Camp McDoweU Indians live now, how far would it be to the extreme east end of tlic portion of the Salt River Reservation that it is proposed to move them to or get them to go to ? 146 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAKTMENT. Mr. Valentine. I had a little map here, IMr. Chairman, that I left with the committee last night — a httle blue print. Here it is. From the nearest point of the Camp McDowell Reservation to the extreme east end of the area that has been, according to this map, set aside for the allotment of the McDowell Indians under the Arizona ditch would be a short 5 miles. The Chairman. What would the extreme distance be to the Salt River territory which it is proposed to invite them to go to ? Mr. Valentine. Ihe fartliest southwestern point of the Salt River would be about 2 miles farther; that is, about 7 miles from the southern line. The Chairman. That would make a distance of only 17 miles from the west end of the Salt River Reservation where it is proposed to ask them to go, to the north end of the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. What is the character of the country between? Mr. Valentine. I do not know that, sir, at all. The Chairman. Ihe Salt River runs at an angle to the Verde that is slightly greater than a right angle ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. It forms an obtruse angle here at the southeast. The Chairman. An obtuse angle is an angle which is slightly greater than a right angle. Mr. Valentine. Here is the Salt, and here is the Verde [indicating on map]. The Chairman. It is about 100°. Mr. Valentine. I should think so. The Chairman. The line of travel would be along the Salt River to the Verde, and then up the Verde and through the McDowell Reservation? Iii other words, is the country which would be the hypothenuse of that triangle traversable, or is it too mountainous to be traversed ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know about that. I do not know how the road runs. Mr. George. If it will not be breaking in, I want to say that on this map where these reservations are covered, the Camp McDowell Reservation is green and the Salt River forms in a general way a kind of right angle [indicating]. Mr. Valentine. Ihis is the Camp McDowell [indicating on map]. Mr. George. What is this? This is just the same color? Mr. Valentine. That is the Salt River. Mrs. Gray. This indicates a forest reserve. Mr. George. There is nothing to indicate it here. Mr. Valentine. There is the Camp McDowell, and there is the Salt River [indicating on map], and right in here is where the addi- tional allotments are proposed to be made. Mr. George. Will it be breaking in for me to ask a question? Mr. Latimer. Not at all. I have a check here, and I can always go back. Mr. Valentine. I can easily find out by wire from the superintend- ent of the Camp McDowell Reservation, probably just as ciuickly— I was thinking possibly I could find out a little quicker from the Phoenix school man — just what the length of that road is. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPARTMENT. 147 The Chairman. I would say to Mr. George that whoever made that map had no right to color any of this green except the reserva- tion made by Executive order on March 17 of this year, St. Patrick's Day. [Laughter.] Mr. George. It took me a long time to arrive. The Indians are still on the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. As I glanced over these documents, they indicated that some had already gone down and taken up somfe allotments there. Mr. George. And your testimony I understood to be that the allotment that is about to be or is in process of being made in the Salt River Reservation is to be additional land to these lands now held by the McDowell Indians ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. They are to retain the McDowell land and to have, in addition to that, this other land in the Salt River ? Mr. Valentine. I think the report of the Indian Office specifically so states that they are to have their McDowell land for grazing and such other purposes as they still want to use it for. The Chairman. Would that grazing right include the right to irrigate it from the Verde River ? Mr. Valentine. I should say so, sir. Mr. George. I would hke also to ask about this Geological Survey; I do not quite understand about that. That was requested by the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. The Geological Survey is another bureau in the same department ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; we have at present a working understanding with them that they make a study of all mineral conditions on our reservations. Mr. George. What moved you to make this inquiry? Mr. Valentine. Because I have been a very rampant conserva- tionist for some years, since the period of conservation, as we now understand it. I got a water-power withdrawal bill through at the time that water-power withdrawal bills were not popular, authorizing the Secretary of the Interior to withdraw powers on Indian reserva- tions. Mr. George. Did you have cause to believe that there was any mineral wealth on this McDowell Reservation? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; not any cause at all; but we even lately have been adopting the policy of -holding up all patents to Indians until we can find out whether the lands are underlaid. Mr. George. But why did you desire to make this examination of the land on wliich these Indians are, when there is no disposition on the part of your bureau to take them from that land ? Why did you have that examination made ? Mr. Valentine. Because we want to know at the earliest possible ■date all the resources that the Indians have, so as to use those xesources to get proceeds for the benefit of the Indians. Mr. George. Are you doing that over the country, generally ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. , Mr. George. On the Gila Reservation have you made any such study as that ? 148 EXPENDITXJEES IK IHE liM J-iLlUUiL Uii,i .in,.i.m^x i j.. Mr. Valentine. I don't know whether that has been done or not. Mr. George. Is that being done on these additions to the new Gila JiestTvations? Mr. Valentine. I do not know whether it is or not. Mr. George. On this eonteni]5lated addition, this further addition, running soutli to tlie eastt'rn addition of the Gila Reservation, do you contemplate making any geological examination? .Mr. Valentine. Speaking from the point of view of the Indian Service, and wanting to get what we can for the Indians, we probably woiilil not make such ;;n examination until we get it set aside, or otherwise wc wr.uld not get it. That is just good business sense. Mi;. George. Do you suspect that there is anything of the kind there ? ]\lr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. George. Do you know of any mineral deposits anywhere in the neigliborhood of these new reservations or additions ? ^Ir. Valentine. No, sir. I simply know that at Globe, west of the San Carlos Keservatioii, tJiere is a great deal of valuable coal country, and in my trip across to San Carlos and Fort Apache I saw a lot of copper outcroppings. It is very important to make a study of every bit of the Indian country at the earliest jjossible day. Mr. George. Has an.y examination been made by the Geological Survey of tlu' land in the Salt River Reservation where the Indians are being allotted new lands ? Mv. A'alentine. I do not know of any. Ml'. George. Win' do you go into that particular portion? That is not clear to me, why you select this particular portion, namely, this McDowell Reservation, for an examination by the Geological Survey. Mr. Valentine. I should have to look up the letter asking for that reservation, anti see whether it throws any light on that subject. Mr. George. Did that originate with you? ]\rr. "N'alentine. ^'es, sir. ilr. George. Vliat is your idea? Mr. Valentine, I mean, to put it this way, wherever we have any reason to think there might be anytliing, wc would make our investi- gation. Mr. George. Did 3-011 have, in your own mind, any idea about that? Mr. Valextixe. I should simply say tjiis: I have not had, until this muiuto, but in response to that question I should saj", knowing that that was a slightly higher altitude and that there were some mountains up in there, I think it'would be a place we would look at first. Mr. George. FnisSin. There will be a cry of "stop thief" when the subject is mentioned. In fact, Ithave heard it said that to allot five acres of land to each Indian and restore the remaining part of the reservation to the public domain was a scheme to take away the Indian'sland where as a matter of fact a count of the Indians on the Salt River and Lehi JReservaticme and a close estimate of the land cultivated showed an average of 10^ acres farmed per family October 1, 1904, and the grazing country is covered with a lot of ponies of no value, which are a detriment to the range. The Indians of Salt River ReseniMion have good work horses and have been improving their stock. In addition to allatinent of reservation lands, if you decide to act on my recommendation, section 12, T. 1'N!, B. 4 E., adjoining the Salt River Reservation should be included. This was the subject of office letter dated October 9, 1908, "Land 42209-53701-1908." So far as the Pima and Maricopa Indians are concerned, I feel sure that they would object to the Mohave-Apache Indians locating on any part of the Salt River "Reservar tion; but as there is plenty of vacant land I would advise the selection of the land without consulting the Pima, which would be in sections 24 and 25, T. 2 N., R. 5 E. and sections 19, 20, 29, and 30, T. 2 N., R. 6 E., situated from 2 to 4 miles east of the Pima settlement. Under the present management, I can guarantee that no friction will result between the Pima and Mohave Indians; that is, no serious friction that your office will ever hear of. I am not asking that the Salt River Reservation be kept under the Jiina agency for any personal reasons; but I honestly believe that, with efficient additional farmers, the Indians can be handled to better advantage and with better results than if you are closely associated with them. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. Next, I read a letter of March 31, 1909, from the Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, to W. H. Code, chief engineer, signed by John Francis, jr., acting chief clerk. The letter is as follows: Department of the Interior, OrFicB OF Indian Affairs, Washington, March SI, 1909. W. H. Code, Chief Engineer, 5t^ Bumiller Building, Los Angeles, Cal. Sir: Referring to your letter of February 19, 1909, to the department, there are inclosed copies of communications of March 16 from the superintendent of the Phoenix School and of March 22 from the superintendent of the Pima School. Your attention is invited to what Mr. Alexander has to say as to a compromise by which the right of the McDowell Indians to water from the Verde River would be transfen-ed to the Salt River Reservation and also to the questions raised by both superintondeots. ^ The Office assumes that nothing fm-ther can be done in this matter until the water rights of the Salt River Valley have been adjudicated, but in the meantime would like to have your opinion as to the points raised in the attached correspondence. Very respectfully, John Francis, Jr., Acting Chief Cleri. Next, I rend a letter dated Pima Training School, Sacaton, Ariz., September 4, 1909, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by J. B. Alexander, superintendent, bearing on the face the stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, "Re- ceived, September 13, 1909." The letter reads as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Sacaton, Ariz., September 4, 1903. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: In reply to office letter of August 13, 1909, relative to the relocation of the Mohave Apache now on the Fort McDowell Reservation to the Salt River Reservation, the transfer of their water rights in the Verde River mentioned by Chief Engineer EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPABTMENT. 199 W. H. Code, in his letter dated July 28, 1909, to the honorable Secretary of the Interior, I have the honor to reconiinehd that the United States attorney for Arizona be advised of the intention of your office to remove the Mohave Apache Indians from the Fort McDowell Reservation to lands of the Salt River Reservation, in township 2 N., R. 6 E., sections 19, 20, 21, and 22, and your desire that the rights of the Indians to water in the Verde River tor lands cultivated by them on the Fort McDowell Reservation be transferred to the 1,390 acres on the Salt River Reservation. I also recommend that I be authorized to sign up with the Water Users' Association of the Salt River Valley for water from the Salt River Reclamation project or Tonto Reservoir, for water for tract of land not exceeding 1,390 acres on the Salt River Reser- vation in sections 19, 20, 21, and 22, for the Mohave Apache Indians, conditioned upon the transfer of water rights and the amount of water to be decreed them by Judge Kent of the third judicial district of Arizona in suit now pending, to adjudicate the rights of the Indian and white settlers of the Salt River and Verde River Valleys. I also recommend that I be authorized to sign up with the aforesaid water users' association for 1,000 acres of additional land of the Salt River Reservation for the Pima and Maricopa Indians living thereon. There have been 3,000 acres signed up for the Salt River Reservation and there are over 4,000 acres in cultivation. Mr. Code states that this 1,000 acres will be entitled to stored water only, which means that the stored water for this additional thousand acres will be delivered when the Verde and Salt Rivers are in flood, or when there is a surplus of water in the reservoir. This additional water, with the continuous flow of 500 inches of water to which the Indians are entitled by reason of prior appropriation, will provide water for the irriga- tion of 5,000 acres of land planted to wheat, which must be irrigated in the winter months when the water is plentiful. The continuous flow of SOOlnches will irrigate alfalfa and other crops during the summer. The cost of water for the land will be $156,000 for 3,900 acres, already signed up; $40,000 for 1,000 acres proposed, or $196,000 in all for the Pima and Maricopa of the Salt River and Lehi Reservations, payable in 10 annual installments, which should be paid by the Indian owners of the land . If it is not possible for the Indians to pay any or all of the indebtedness, the sale of unused and unoccupied lands will provide funds to discharge the greater part thereof. The cost to the Moha've Apache Indians for water for their new lands on the Salt River Reservation may be paid under similar conditions. Either the land holder should pay for his indebtedness in 10 annual installments fi'om personal funds or the tribe, as a whole, pay the indebtedness from funds derived from the sale of the McDowell Reservation. I favor the idea of requir- ing each Indian to pay for his water rights in the Salt River reclamation project, and they should be notified that they must provide for the payment of the installments when due or surplus land will be sold to pay same. I think that 1 can arrange for the removal of the McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation with no trouble and at a very small cost, and I recommend that it be done as soon as possible and that the Indians be located on lands which may be allotted to them. Please refer to my letter of March 22, in answer to office letter of March 10, 1909, CO-Operation 14247, and to my annual report for the year ending June 30, 1909, for the number of Indians residing on the Salt River and Lehi Reservations. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. I next read a letter of September 16, 1909, which eads as follows: September 16, 1909. J. B. Alexander, Esq., Superintendent Pima Indian School, Sacaton, Ariz. Sir: The office has received your letter of September 4 in regard to the removal of the Mohave Apaches from Fort McDowell Reservation to the Salt River Reserva- tion. You failed to return the report of Mr. Code which was forwarded to you on August 14. Please return it at once. Very respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Chief Cleric. Mr. Latimer. Is Mr. Joe H. Norris one of your inspectors and irrigation engineers? Mr. Valentine. He is not one of our inspectors. He is one of the Secretary's inspectors. Mr. Latimer. Is he an irrigation engineer? Mr. Valentine. I think not. 200 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. What is the distinction, Mr. Valentine, between your inspectors and the Secretary's inspectors? Mr. Valentine. The Secretary has a force of men who as a rule are used to check up the Indian work; that is, they investigate me and my affairs, as I have already stated to the committee; and our men are technically know as special agents and supervisors. (Another file of letters, some of wliich Mr. Latimer proposed to read, was subnutted to Mr. Valentine, and he stated they were rec- ognized by liim as being from the records of the Indian Office.) Mr. Valentine. I will read the report of Joe H. Norris, inspector Department of the Interior, which on the face of it bears the stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, "Received April 15, 1910." The report reads as follows: [Report of Joe H. Norris, inspector, Departmeot of the Interior.] General Inspection and Investigation of Conditions at the Camp McDowell Agency and Day School, Arizona, April 9, 1910. land — water. As heretofore stated, the land on this reservation lies on the banks of the Verde River. A very hir2;o per cent of it very rich and fertile, affording much pasture, and, where it is possible to secure a supply of water for irrigation purposes, raises good crops of wheat, barley, alfalfa, and vegetables. Here there is much more good land than the Indians located on the reservation can use to advantage for farming purposes should a plentiful supply of water be secured, although their small herds of cattle and horses roam at will over all the reservation. The water proposition here under existing conditions is a very unsafe one. There is a sufficient amount in the Verde River to supply all the needs of the Indians located here, but the uncertainty as to where the mam channel will be from time to time makes the question of irrigation an uncertain onp. Here the river is nearly, if not quite, a half a mile wide from bank to bank. To-day the main channel may be on one side and to-morrow one of the many fl'iods of water may sweep down and change the entire course of the channel to the cjpposite side of the river, and pile up a huge sandbar between it and the head of the ditrh; or, on the other hand, the swift current is liable to cut into the bank and ruin the intake for the canal by cutting out a deep channel many feet below the head of th^ canal, leaving it high and dry. Several years a^o a, canal was constructed, known as tlio .Tones Canal, which supplied a much larger acreage with water than is now being supplied. Not long afterwards, during one of the periods when the river was bank full, a deep channel was cut in at the head of the canal, rendering it thereafter useless. Subsequent to that time the present canal was constructed, the water being taken out vi ihe river much lower down, v/hich, of couisf, reduced the area of aralile kmr! ver\' materially. The present canal is constructed for some distance through a K,\nd Ijii.r and then for some distance follows near the bank of the river. Just at the jTcseut I ime, I his canal is affording a good supply of water but the element of uncerln.inty as to its permanency, reduces the assurance of raising a crop almost to the minimum. The first floods coming down may render it absolutely useless. Should the present site at the head of the canal be rendered useless, it would be next to impussible to construct another one which would stand with any degree of safety without the expenditure of much more money than would be justifial)le. (Iwirg to the nature of the river banks on the reservation, it will, in my opinion, require the expenditure "f more money to secure a permanent and lasting head than the conditions would warrant. Joe H. Norris, Inspector, Department of the Interim. The Chairman. Is there any intimation in the correspondence indi- cating who sent Mr. Norris to make these observations ? Mr. Latimer. There is nothing that I recall. There is nothing there. EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTBEIOE DEPARTMENT. 201 The Chairman. The letter you read is addressed to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs ? IVIr. Latimer. Yes; it is. I presume that this matter was brought to the knowledge of the Indian Commissioner. Mr. Valentine. I would Uke you to modify that statement, Mr. Latimer, and change it so as to read, "with the knowledge of the Indian Oflfice." You said, "the knowledge of the Indian Commis- sioner." Mr. Latimer. I only mentioned that, meaning of course his office. Mr. Valentine. I did not know from the terminology whether you meant personally or not. Mr. Latimer. If I had meant you personally I would have said "m. Valentine." Mr. Valentine. For the thorough understanding of the committee, I think it has appeared already on the record we frequently borrow the inspectors of the Secretary, because we are short in our own force, and it is entirely Ukety that in a situation of this kind the office would ask to have some one sent, and it may be that the office asked to have Mr. Norris sent. I think the record can befound and that can be ascertained. (Two files of letters which Mr. Latimer proposed to read were here handed to Mr. Valentine to be examined by him.) Mr. Latimer. Will you examine those and say if they are from the files of the Interior Department ? Mr. Valentine. They appear to be our files, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. If it meets with your approval, ]\Ir. Chairman, I would like to submit, without reading, simply for designation, to be published, letters whose purport would be to show the continuous work that was being done to move these Indians away from Camp McDowell. The Chairman. Continuous work on the part of whom ? Mr. Latimer. Of the Indian Commissioner's office. The Chairman. Would that include all the letters in that bunch that you have now in your hand ? Mr. Latimer. It would include part of them, and part of them I should read to the committee ; but the rest, I think, it is of impor- tance to have in the record, to show that the effort was made. Mr. George. You would not put in the whole letter? Mr. Latimer. Yes. My idea in having the letters read now is to enable the committee to follow the situation, and I can shorten it by telling you the letters I am referriag to and then putting them in the record, which tend to show that a special agent was down there, and what he was doing. The Chairman. If they have any bearing on it at all, even if you do not deem them worthy of reading at this time, perhaps they had better be published Mr Latimer. I think they should be published. Mr. George. Let me interrupt you just a moment. Would it be just as well, if you are going to undertake to prove a certain point, to say how you propose to do it — by the following letters ? Mr. Latimer. I would be very happy to make a statement of what I am attempting to prove. Mr. George. I do not Imow whether that is interfering with any plan that the chairmap has or not. 202 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. The chairmai^ has not ajiy plan, beyond getitittg the relevant facts. It is not out of order. Mr. Latimer wants to give his views as to the point to which he tldnks they relate; Mr. Latimek. Yes. The Chairman. If they are relevant to some point, I think they had better go in. Mr. George. I think, in view of that, that my question ought to be modified in its form. Perhaps it might be very much better to put it in the form that the chairman has suggested by his remark. Mr. Latimer. You want me to give a statement in reference to what in my judgment the documents tend to prove ? The Chairman. If you consider them relevant to this inquinr? Mr. Ijatimer. The documentary evidence T have here and am offering is for the purpose of tending to prove: Gross neglect of the care of these McDowell Indians, for years; gross neglect as to their water rights on the Verde, if not of determined and specific effort to entirely destroy them for the benefit, solely, of the whites owning land in the Salt River project. And as a part of this scheme, to take away finally, by surrepti- tiously gaining their consent, the right of these Indians in the Camp McDowell Reservation, and to turn the reservation back into the public domain. I offer in evidence a letter from Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., dated November 14, 1910, addressed to the Com- missioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by Charles E. Coe, superintendent, which letter is as follows: Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., November 14, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Washington, D. C. Sir: In accordance with letter from your office, dated October 28, 1910, I have submitted a request on Form 5-262 for authority to purchase equipment to carry on the allotting work on Salt River Reservation. I have made this request for one team only, wagon, harness, tents, etc. As the lands to be allotted are all very compactly located and the allotments will be small, I believe this will be sufficient. I am not at all experienced as to an allottnig crew's needs, however, and it may be necessary to sub- mit a request for an additional amount of equipment when the special allotting agent arrives. The request for the team, etc., was submitted through special allotting agent, Charles E. Roblin. Regarding the matter of st^akes for marking the Indian allotments, and the sugges- tion that it miciht be cheaper to purchase a sufficient quantity of pipe in the open market and cut it into the required lengths and split one end to form "flanges" in the agency, blacksmith shop: It is not possible trj do this, as there is no blacksmith shop on the Salt River Res- ervation. The small shop at the Camp McDowell Day School is not equipped to do such work and, besides, is too far from where the stakes are to be used. The stakes can be purchased in the open market here at about the following rates: IJ-inch black pipe, 3 feet long, flanged, at 60 cents each; IJ-inch black pipe, 2 feet long, flanged, at 45 cents each; |-inch black pipe, 3 feet long, flanged, at 35 cents each; |-inch black pipe, 2 feet long, flanged, at 28 cents each. The steel dies for cutting descriptive numbers and letters on stakes will cost about 20 cents each. I am of the opinion that the stakes can be purchased cheaper by your office, as everything here is very high. I note that the total area allotted to each Indian will probably be 20 acres. I am glad to know that it will be at least that much, and since I have become more famiKar with the situation I would recommend that the amount of grazing land to each Indian be 20 acres, making a total of 30 acres. There is plenty of land for doing this and I believe the Indians ought to have it. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Saperintmdent. , EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 203 Another letter from Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., dated November 22, 1910, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by Charles E. Coe, superintendent, which letter is as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., November B^, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have just had a conference with Mr. A. F. Dunniston, of the General Land Office, who, as your office doubtless knows, has been detailed to look after the Sur- veying of the Salt River, Camp McDowell, and Pima Indian Reservations. Mr. Dunniston has instructions to survey the whole of Salt River Reservation, and to subdivide the irrigable lands into 40-acre tracts and the grazing lands into quarter sections. His equipment will arrive in Phoenix within a very few days. Mr. Dunniston suggests that if he can be informed just the size the allotments are to be on this reservation, that it will be but very little extra work for his surveyors to make the smaller subdivisions as may be needed and furnish Special Allotting Agent Charles E. Roblin, with plats at once, enabling him to do the allotting without the surveyor and field assistants mentioned in your letter "Allotments, 83225 — 1910, J. T. R,." It seems to me that this is an excellent suggestion, as our surveyor would be doing the same work over again. It would have the further advantage of the General Land Office approval, so that there would never be any question as to the accuracy of the surveys. It will also effect quite a saving iu expenses. Mr. Dunniston says he can not use the modified form of stakes recommended by Supervisor Gunderson, as the stake with the brass cap is the standard size authorized for all surveys by the General Land Office. The objection of Mr. Gunderson as to these stakes for use in roads can be overcome by either setting them deeper or setting them a few feet away from the true corner and using them as a reference comer. The question of the McDowell Indians is another matter that ought to be passed upon. These Indians construe your letter of June 18, 1910, in answer to their petition to be allowed to remain here as a promise that they may do so. A large majority are very strongly opposed to going to Salt River Reservation. The chief and some of the other most influential members of the tribe say they wUl never accept any land there and will leave the reservation entirely rather than do so. Should they stay here and be allotted at this time or even at a later date, the Camp McDowell Reservation should also be subdivided when the survey is made. It will be greatly appreciated if an opinion from your office can be had on these mat- ters at once as Mr. Dunniston informs me that he must get the work under way and in such shape that it can b'e handled by an assistant, as he must return East very soon. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Another letter from Blackfeet Agency, Browning, Mont., dated November 29, 1910, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian AiTairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by Arthur E. McFatridge, superin- tendent and special disbursing agent, which letter is as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Blackfeet Agency, Browning, Mont., November 29, 1910. The Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have the honor to request authority to transfer one solar compass to Super- intendent Charles E . Coe, McDowell, Ariz., for use of Allotting Agent Charles E. Roblin. Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson has requested that this be done. If the authority is granted, I would respectfully request that I be given shipping direc- tions. Very respectfully, Arthur E. McFatridge, Superintendent and Special Disbursing Agent. Another letter from the Indian Commissioner's Office, dated De- cember 2, 1910, addressed to Mr. Charles E. Roblin, special allotting 204 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOE DEPAETMENT. agent, McDowell, Ariz., signed by G. F. Hauke, Second Assistant ■Commissioner, which letter is as follows : December 2, 1910. ' Mr. Charles E. Roblin, Special Allotting Agent, McDowell, Ariz. SiK : The oflBce is in receipt of a communication from the superintendent of the Camp McDowell Indian school, wherein it is suggested that it will not be feasible to purchase pipe and manufacture therefrom stakes for marking allotments to Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation, as proposed by Supervisor Gunderson after his visit there. The superintendent says that the only blacksmith shop under his supervision is the one on'the Camp McDowell Reservation, which is but a small affair and not prop- erly equipped to carry on work of this kind, and is also some distance from the land to be allotted to the Indians. He suggests the purchase in the open market of pipe, cut into the desired lengths a,nd flanged; which it appears will cost 35 cents per length for the J-inch pipe 3 feet long and 60 cents each for the 1^-inch pipe of the same length. In a later communication under date of November 22, 1910, the superintendent suggested that Mr. Dunnington, the topographer in charge of the survey work there, can not use the modified form of stake recommended by Supervisor Gunderson, as it will be necessary for him to use the standard stake with the brass cap authorized for all surveys by the General Land Office. Before taking further action on the superintendent's recommendation regarding the kind of stake to be used in this allotment work, it is requested that you discuss the matter fully with Topographer Dunnington and submit such recommendations as you may care to make regarding it. Very respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. Mr. Henslet. Is it your purpose to have those letters which you are mentioning in this way incorporated in the record ? Mr. Latimer. Incorporated in the record as tending to show the division of the land out there, how it was to be divided up, and the work that was constantly going on appertaining to the purpose of removal. The commissioner testified that they never, at any time, figured on the removal of these Indians; they were going to give them 5 acres of land on the Salt River Reservation, in addition to what they had, and let them continue to use Camp McDowell Reser- vation. Mr. Catlin. The purpose of these letters is simply to offset the statement of the witness ? ^ Mr. Latimer. Nor only to correct the witness — not in the nature of an impeachment, because he testified so far as his own personal knowledge is concerned — but it is for the purpose of showing the true situation, a situation of such a serious nature that it certainly ought to have been brought to the attention of the Indian Commissioner personally. The Chairman. The question would be whether the documents are relevant for any purpose. If they are, and go in the record, the committee will consider them for any purpose in connection with these matters. Mr. Hensley. Wliat I am getting at, Mr. Chairman, is this. How are we, by the mere mention of a letter, and the date, to know what it is. The Chairman. It will be printed in the record. Mr. Hensley. It will be printed in the record, but it will be too late then for us to pass upon its relevancy. The Chairman. Well, if it is not relevant it will not be considered. Mr. Latimer. As I understand, it is almost impossible as papers ; are introduced to pass upon the relevancy of them so as to decide whether they should be in or out. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB CEPAKTMENT. 205 Mr. Hensley. In other words, it will be in evidence and it will not be in evidence ? The Chairman. It will be in the record, but not in evidence. Mr. Catlin. But, Mr. Chairman, on other occasions you stated that the matter was not relevant, and asked, Why have it printed ? Now the proposition comes up, let it go into the record now and we will pass upon the relevancy later. The Chairman. The other matter was very voluminous, and that was the only reason for not printing it. There may be, and perhaps is, in a book which Dr. Montezuma has here about the Indians of Arizona, a paragraph which is pertinent to this inquiry, but I would hate to see the Dook go in. And so in the opinion you are thinlung of now there are some things that are relevant and there are a great many that are not, and it is a very voluminous opinion, and if we can we ought to pick out the things that we think are relevant and exclude the rest. But if that can not be done, I would concede at once that it should all go in rather than all stay out. Mr. Latimer. I suggested to the chairman that I would quote some paragraphs and some lines, and the question was whether that would be fair to the Interior Department. The Chairman. The point I think you should get clearly in your minds, and I think we should all get clearly in our minds, is this, that for the purposes of an inquiry like this it is very much better to get irrelevant matter into the record than to keep any relevant naatter out of the record. You can sift it afterwards if it is in, but if it is not in you can not sift it. Mr. George. It is very evident that there are passages in these letters that should go in, and m order to get along with this mvestiga- tion it is Mr. Latimer's purpose simply to cite those and let them go into the record. The Chairman. I think it will be proper to print as much of it as possible without reading it, because the reading by one will take the time of all. Mr. Hensley. But all of us will have to read before we can pass upon the competency of these letters, and on that proposition I thought it would be a saving of time to have them read now and then whatever objection the department had would be raised. Mr. Valentine. There will be no objection on the part of the department. The Chairman. You will have to read them again, anyway. Mr. Hensley. Yes; I suppose so. That is all I have to say. The Chairman. There is such a mass of conflicting detail that you will have to read them agaia. Mr. George. I am sorry to interrupt you. Mr. Latimer. Not at all, I am very glad to have the matter understood. Mr. Hensley. I am glad to have the matter understood as we go along. Mr. Latimer. The last letter I referred to was from the Indian Commissioner's ofTice, dated December 3, 1910, addressed to Mr. Charles E. Coe, Camp McDowell, Ariz., signed C. F. Hauke, second assistant commissioner. Next is a letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., December 17, 1910, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian 206 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Charles E. Coe, and readiog as follows: Department of the Inteeior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., December n, 1910. The Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Answering that part of youi letter of December 3, 1910, regarding the allotment of the Camp McDowell Indianss to lands on Salt River Reservation: There is plenty of excellent land on the Camp McDowell Reservation and during the past year there has been an abundance of water in the ditches. The question of the permanency of these ditches is what has caused the recommendations for th.« removal of these Indians. It seems that mischief makers have been busy among them who, I think for Belfish ends, have advised them not to accept allotments at Salt River and I fear have undone about all that I had accomplished toward that end. I would request that your office send some one to the reservation to take the matter up with these Indians as soon as possible. They have your letter of June 18, 1910, to Chief Yuma PVank and construe it to mean that they will be allowed to remain here , and I feel that some one is needed from the office to assist me in the matter. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe. Mr. Coe is superintendent of the Canrp McDowell Reservation, and Mr. Code is the chief engineer of the Indian department of irri- gation. Mr. George. And Alexander is whom ? Mr. Latimer. Mr. J. B. Alexander is superintendent of the Salt River Reservation, and Mr. J. A. L. Alexander is United States district attorney for the Territory of Arizona, with headquarters at Phoenix. Next is a letter dated January 6, 1911, from the Indian Commis- sioner's office, signed C. F. Hauke, second assistant conmiissioiier, and addressed to Mr. Charles E. Coe, superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. This connects up the Indian Office, constantly getting these reports. The letter reads as follows: January 6, 1911. Mr. Charles E. Cob, Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sir : The office has received your letter of December 17, 1910, wherein it is requefited that some one be sent to the Salt River Reservation to take up with the Indians there the question of the removal to and allotment on the Salt River Reservation of the Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation. It is understood that Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson will reach your reservation shortly after February 1, and it is requested that you present the matter fully to the supervisor, who will report the facts to the office, together with such rec- ommendations as he may care to make. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissiomr. (Carbon to Supervisor Gunderson.) The purport of this is to show that Gunderson was selected to go down and make the report. Next is a letter dated February 10, 1911, to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C., and signed Charles Gunderson, reading as follows: EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE. DEPARTMENT. 207' Depabtment of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Salt River Indian Reservation, Scottsdale, Ariz., February 10, 1911. The Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Waihington, D. C. Sib: David Gilbert and his wife, Minnie Gilbert, two Camp McDowell Indians, being the first of their people to accept allotments on the Salt River Reservation, and this being done in d^ect opposition to the stand taken by the whole tribe, I con- sider it no more than just and proper that their action be recognized by the office in the form of a letter of commendation. . I trust that the office will not regard this request as unimportant, because I can assure the office that it required no small amount of courage for these people to lead the way in the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation . Very respectfully, Carl Gunderson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents. (Filed by C. P. F.) Mr. Latimee. At this point, Mr. Valentine, I would like to call your attention to the cjuestions Mr. George was asking you at the last hearing, Friday, in reference to the cause of your order for investigation as to mineral deposits on Camp McDowell. Your answer, in substance, as I recall it, was that under an order that had been in effect in your office some little time, a comparatively short time, on the introduction of a bill in reference to Indian reservations, your subordinates followed a rule to have an investigation for minerals immediately made on the reservation designated in the biU. Is that correct ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, that is substantially correct, or even before the bill was introduced. We are making them just as fast as we can. Mr. LaTimer. As I gained the impression from your testimony, it was sort of an ipso facto proceeding that as soon as the bill was introduced Mr. Valentine (interrupting). If it had not been done before, the bill would practically command it. Mr. Latimer. As soon as the bill had been introduced ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. That bill was introduced by Mr. Stephens on April 23 • Mr. Valentine. Mr. Stephens ? Mr. Latimer. Mr. Stephens. Mr. Valentine. Yes. I have a bill of April 20 introduced by Mr. Stephens. Mr. Latimer. This is a bill, Mr. Commissioner, from which you were testifying on Friday with reference to this matter. Mr. Valentine. That is the bill on my desk when I left town two weeks ago. Mr. Latimer. I hand you a bill purporting to be bill H. R. 31920, introduced January 23, 1911, by Mr. Graham, of Illinois, provid- ing for the allotment of Camp McDowell Indian Reservation, which I would like to have you compare with this bill of April 20, 1911, and see if the provisions are not practically the same, or at least that both are referring to the allotment at Camp McDowell. Mr. Valentine. They both relate to the allotment of Camp McDowell Indians. Mr. Merritt, who has charge of all legislative 208 BXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. matters referred to our office, tells me Mr. Graham's bill has not been referred to us for report. Mr. Catlin. Has this been introduced this year or last year ? The Chairman. 1910, wasn't it? Mr. Latimer. Did you compare the two bills ? Mr. Valentine. I did not look at the details; but I see the titles and headings provide for the allotment of the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation. Would you like to have me compare them paragraph by paragraph ? Mr. Latimer. In substance, is there sufficient in the bill of Mr. G.aham, introduced in January, to cause your department to act at once in reference to an investigation as to minerals on the reservation? ikir. Valentine. While I am looking at it, I will say that there prob- ably is, provided the bill had been referred to us for report, so we knew of its existence. As I have just stated, Mr. Merritt says it has not been referred to us for report. j\Ir. Catlin. I did not catch your answer before that. Mr. Vale;vtine. Apparently it has not been referred to us for report. The procedure is, as you know better than I do, when a bill is introduced Mr. Catlin. Yes; I know — and as soon as you get word of it, it is referred for action ? Mr. Valentine. As soon as it is referred to us for report, that is our notice, contained in the bill, and, as I say, that would be a practical command to make all the investigation necessary to a thorough under- standing of the conditions on the reservation and as to the minerals there. Yes; if this bill were referred to the office, it would be neces- sary, under the policy we are pursuing, to make such a study as the Geological Survey would make. Mr. Latimer. As a matter of fact, for some reason or other, the matter of investigation with reference to coal was not taken until after the introduction of the bill on April 23 ? Mr. Valentine. I do not recall when it was taken up. Mr. Latimer. That is the testimony, but was that the reason ? Mr. Valentine. No ; but I said that bill would be a reason. I have no recollection as to the date of our request that the Geological Survey should make that investigation. Mr. George. I asked for information as to when that was obtained, at a former hearing, and I understood, Mr. Commissioner, that you were going to make inquiry as to that. Did you make that inquiry? Mr. Valentine. I find we have not. I haven't it here among my data, but we will look it up and have it for you to-morrow. (Mr. Mondell at this point entered the committee room and took his seat.) Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, I regret that I had to be away for a little while. I do not want to go over the same ground that the committee has gone over in my absence, but I would like to ask the commissioner a few questions, and if I get on the ground that has been gone over, I would like to have you inform me. There is one matter I would rather elucidate at this point, if you have not brought it out. The Chairman. Mr. Latimer, are you at a point where you can be interrupted without inconvenience? Ml'. Latimer. I have a mass of documentary evidence to offer, Mr. Chairman, and this is a good place to be interrupted ; yes, sir. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. 209 Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner, from some papers that have come to my attention, I understand that there was at one time a ditch built, I assume for the purpose of watering the lands immediately about Camp McDowell. Is that true? Mr. Valentine. That is my understanding. Mr. Latimer. Was that ditch built by the military? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. Mr. Latimer. Are you sufficiently familiar with the situation at Camp McDowell to know whether there is what is known as the Army ditch or the military ditch or the Camp McDowell ditch, that is referred to in the order transferring the '- Mr. Valentine (interrupting). No, sir; I am not. I have seen these claims in a number ot documents I have had in the record since coming to Washington. Mr. Mondell. You do not know for certain whether there was a ditch built by the military authorities at Camp McDowell ? In addi- tion to the ditches built by the settlers themselves, did the Govern- ment sometime ago build a ditch? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge of it. . The Chairman. Just there, did the settlers ever build a ditch at Camp McDowell ? Mr. Mondell. There are several settlers' ditches on the Camp McDowell Reservation. Mr. Latimer. If the gentleman will pardon me, we have the detailed report, giving that specific information, which I was going to introduce, but I have not got to it yet. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Commissioner, what is your personal informa- tion with regard to the ditches that were built by the settlers on the present Camp McDowell Reservation? Mr. Valentine. I have no personal information. Mr. Mondell. The two appropriations made by Congress — one, I think, for $14,000, and one for approximately $50,000 — were for the purpose of purchasing the lands of some settlers on the Camp McDowell Reservation. Were those appropriations made since you became commissioner, do you recall ? Mr. Valentine. I do not think so. I have seen them in looking (j>ver some of the papers and memoranda; yes, sir. I noticed those two appropriations. Mr. Mondell. There are some ditches there, built by settlers, at McDowell, one of them being approximately 13 miles long? Mr. Valentine. I could not say. Mr. Mondell. Do you know whether, at the time you took posses- sion of the Camp McDowell Reservation, or at the time the Indian Office took possession of it, after these Indians had drifted back from San Carlos, whether or not the Indian Office ever ffied any application for water rights ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir; no, sir. Mr. Mondell. Do you know whether all the purchases of lands of the settlers were such that in them the Indian Office also took a deed for water rights ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know as to that. Mrs. Gray. They did, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell. We will develop that later. I simply want to know whether the commissioner has that information. 98240— No. 6—11— «^-4 ^.SSM 210 EXPENDITTJRES IN THE INTBRIOB DEPARTMENT. Now, Mr. Commissioner, do you know what instructions were given to the officers of the Indian Office, if any, when the Govern- ment intervened in the suit of Hurley v. Abbott, which was a suit to settle generally, the water rights on the Salt River and its tributaries? Do you know whether the Indian Oflfice presented its claim for water rights under the ditches from the Verde, built by the mihtary, if there were such, and built by the settlers, which were purchased by the Government under the appropriation to which I have referred ? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge of any sort about those ditches. Mr. MoNDELL. Was not that during your administration ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I think not— you mean the purchase of these ditches ? Mr. Mondell. I am asking now whether the suit in question was under your administration. Mr. Valentine. The suit in question was settled — the date of the decree was March 1, 1910. Mr. Mondell. When did the proceedings take place ? ]\Ir. Valentine. It came over into my administration. Mr. Mondell. Do you know what officer represented the Indian Office, if any, in that matter, or the Interior Department ? Mr. Valentine. I do not. Mr. Latimer. If you will pardon me, we went over in detail that matter. The decree was introduced with reference to certain sec- tions of it, and I have asked Mr. Valentine to kindly furnish us with all the instructions or information of every kind and nature that the Indian Office has as to what authority was given the district attorney there. Mr. ]\IoNDELL. You are famihar with the decree in the case re- ferred to ? Mr. Valentine. Since yesterday. Mr. Mondell. You Icnow it contains one paragraph which contains a provision indicating at least a partial waiver on behalf of the Indian Office of irrigation rights on the Verde ? Mr. Valentine. It contains what I should consider a very extraor- dinary paragraph to that effect. Mr. Latimer. Do you know whether anyone was authorized to make such a waiver ? ]\Ir. Valentine. I have no knowledge of it. I can not conceive anybody being authorized. Air. Mondell. Can you get that information ? Mr. Valentine. I have already told the committee I would be delighted so to do. Mr. Mondell. That is all, Air. Chairman. The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latijier. In this connection, if the chairman please, I would like to introduce a history and report of Camp McDowell Reservation, Ariz., that shows entirely when it was created and how it was created and just exactly what property it has. It only embraces three or four pages. The Chairman. From what ? Mr. Latimer. From the annual report of the Department of the Interior for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1905, Indian Affairs, part EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 211 1, page 98, report to the Secretary of the Interior from the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs; aU of that part of page 98 following "Camp McDowell Reservation, Ariz.," all of page 99, all of page 100, all of ?age 101, all of page 102, and all of page 103 down to "Mission ndians, California." I call the attention of the committee particularly at this time to this matter, owing to Mr. Mondell's questions The Chairman (interposing). Who was then commissioner? Mr. Latimer. Mr. Leupp. It gives a very good r6sum6 of this proposition. The Chairman. Is there any objection to that going in the record ? If not, it will be admitted. (The extract from the annual report referred to is as follows:) CAMP m'dOWELL reservation, ARIZ. In the fall of 1900 it was reported to this office that some 8 or 10 families of Mohave-Apache Indians were living at the Camp McDowell Abandoned Military- Reservation, Ariz., who would suffer from cold'and hunger during the winter months unless some aid was given in the way of shelter and food. An Indian inspector who was sent to Camp McDowell to investigate the case reported that some of these Indians had formerly been living along the Verde River Valley— their old home — ^while others had drifted over from the San Carlos Reservation, 250 miles away; that they were well behaved and industrious, and that they pleaded hard to be given a small tract of land at the abondoned post on which they could support themselves. The inspector earnestly recommended that such amount x>t land at Camp McDowell as had not been settled upon by the whites be reserved to these Indians, who would then be able, with some little assistance, to take care of themselves. In office report of November 21, 1901, it was stated that this abandoned military reservation, which contained in round numbers 25,000 acres, was turned over to the Interior Department by the War Department February 14, 1891, for disposal under the provisions of the act of Congress of July 5, 1884 (23 Stat. L., J.03), as amended by the act of August 23, 1894 (28 Stat. L.,, 491), which amendment reserved from public entry and settlement such legal subdivisions as contained Government improvements. It was recommended that the reserved tracts and imprcArements be withdrawn from entry and set aside for the use of these worthy and destitute Indians and that they be given homes there. November 27, 1901, the department answered that it had directed the Commissioner of the General Land Office "to reserve for Indian purposes the lands of the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation, in Arizona, which by the act of 1894 are reserved from settlement, and also the north half of the said abandoned military reservation, until action thereon can be had from Congress;" and this office was directed to prepare a report for transmission to Congress "looking to the acquiring of these lands for allot- ment to the Mohave-Apache now living on said lands and to those living in the Verde Valley, Arizona." December 12, 1901, the draft of a bill was transmitted to the department providing for ,the allotment in severalty to the Indians of the lands which included the Gov- ernment improvements on the abandoned military post, consisting of (1) the imme- diate site of the old camp, with its good artesian well; (2) the post garden; (3) the United States Government farm; (4) the lands lying north of the old camp and con- taining the old Government irrigating ditch; (5) the target-practice grounds, and any other land reserved from entry by the act of August 23, 1894. The bill was introduced in Congress, but was not passed. When it became known that the department was trying to secure those lands, Containing about 400 acreSj as homes for the Indians, it caused much bitter feeling on the part of the whites, who had formerly maltreated and misrepresented the Indians and had used every means at command to drive them off the military reservation. In office letter to the department of September 2, 1902, it was earnestly recommended that the matter be brought again to the attention of Congress at its next session, which was done, but no action was taken by Congress. ,,In th« summer of 1903 the President sent Mr. Frank Mead to Camp McDowell to iasrestigate . the serious trouble, threatenfid between the whites and Indians there. His report of September 4, 1903, showed that the Mohave-Apache Indians, number- 212 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMENT. ing between 500 and 600, were scattered in small bands from Camp McDowell to the head of the Verde River, and on adjacent creeks, railroad, and mining camps, the largest bands being at Fort McDowell, where there were about 184 persona, and at Camp Verde, where there were about 216. The Indian agent at San Carlos said that there were from 800 to 1,000 Indians off the reservation, who thought the Gov:- emment approved of their seeking homes in the Verde Valley, as they left San Carlos for that purpose by permission of their agent. The Verde Valley was their old home, where they had lived for generations. About 29 years ago, against their wish but at the request of Gen. Crook, whom they liked and respected, they left the Verde Valley and went to live on the reservation at San Carlos. At this time the Indians claim that Gen. Crook said that when they became civilized and were willing to live like white men the Government would return them to their old home and help them to become citizens. Most of their older men had rendered very important service to the Government as scouts for the Army in the hard campaign against the Chiricahua-Apache, under Geronimo, and many of them were disappointed at not being permitted to go and fight in the late war with Spain. These Indians were receiving no Government help of any kind, were destitute of everything, and for four years had merely existed in the arid hills, among the cactus brush, overlooking the river and their former lands. They lived in open sheltere built of twigs and branches and subsisted mainly on wild mesquite beans and cactus fruit. They were manly, honest, upright, would walk 50 and 60 miles to find work were obedient and law-abiding, and even in their destitute condition would not kill quail or deer against the laws of Arizona . They were very peaceful and careful not to annoy Mexicans or whites or to give them excuse for complaints, and would even stand illtreatment without resenting it. They suffered during the winter from exposure and lack of food and clothing, and consumption was increasing among them. Many of the young men spoke English and had learned trades at Indian schools, hut there was no work lor them, while the younger children were growing up without schools or civilizing influences, and their enforced idleness and life in the cactus brush was demoralizing. The majority of the men wore their hair short, and all wore hats, shoes, overalls, and cotton shirts, their one idea being to live and he like white men, as promised Gen. Crook. Their greatest evil was their lax marriage relation. Mr. Mead attended five councils a.t the different camps, and at each council was met with the same request: "Give us land and a little help that we may be farmers and live and work like white men." They did not want rations, as they understood clearly that only through their own efforts would they attain real standing and man- hood, and therefore they asked for land and guidance on industrial lines in order that they might go to work and become men and citizens in earnest. The unsettled land questions at Fort McDowell were demoralizing to both the Indians and the whites there, who alike recognized their greatest need to be "decision on the part of Washington." The whole Fort McDowell Reservation contained about 2,000 acres of iirigable land, two-thirds of it under ditch, which could well support 100 Indian families on the basis of 20 acres to the family. This would take care of all the Indians in the Verde Valley, and under competent industrial direction they could be made self- supporting and of no further trouble to the Government. It would cost approxi- mately $25,000 to buy out all the settlers and an additional 513,000 to build necessary ditches. But should only the north half of the reservation be given to the Indians, it would support about 45 families, as it contained about 900 acres which could be irrigated, half of it being then under ditch. In this case |3,500 would be required to buy out settlers' claims, besides $1,200 for the purchase of the "main ditch." Many of the settlers on the reservation would be glad of the chance to sell out, as they were speculators who held only to sell, and moved from place to place. The whites considered the Indians among them as being the real obstacle to their secur- ing all the land at Fort McDowell, and took every means of showing their dislike. If the land should be divided between the white people, trouble would he sure to come, as the white man would place every obstacle in the path of the red man. Therefore, if the Indians were to be settled at Fort McDowell at all, Mr. Mead recommended that the Government buy out all legitimate claimants or settlers and give the entire reservation to the Indians, especially as the influence of the existing white community, which maintained a flourishing saloon and gambling house, was very bad. Mr. Mead's report was submitted to the department on September 12, 1903, wim recommendation that the President be asked to withdraw such of the lands of the abandoned military reservation as might not embrace or infringe upon the bona fide EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 213 claims of settlers which had already attached to the lands under the act of August 23, 1894. On September 15, 1903, the President issued the following order: White House, September 15, 1903. It is hereby ordered that so much of the land of the Camp McDowell Abandoned Military Reservation as may not have been legally settled upon nor have valid claims attaching thereto under the provisions of the act of Congress approved August 23, 1894 (28 Stat. L., 491), be, and the same is hereby, set aside and reserved for the use and occupancy of such Mohave-Apache Indians as are now living thereon or in the vicinity and such other Indians as the Secretary of the Interior may hereafter deem necessary to place thereon. The lands so withdrawn and reserved will include all tracts to which valid rights have not attached under the provisions of the said act of Congress, and in addition thereto all those tracts upon the reservation containing Government improvements, which were reserved from settlement by the said act of Congress, and which consist of (1) the immediate site of the old camp, containing buildings and a good artesian well; (2) the post garden; (3) the United States Government farm; (4) the lands lying north of the old camp and embracing or containing the old Government irrigation ditch; and (5) the target-practice grounds. Theodore Roosevelt. On September 30, 1903, the Rev. W. H. Gill, a missionary who had been living near the Camp McDowell Reservation and had been of the greatest benefit and help to the Indians there, was on Mr. Mead's recommendation placed in charge of the Indians and instructed to get them settled on the lands which had been withdrawn for their use. At the same time Mr. Mead was requested to adjust the claims of the settlers who had gone upon lands reserved from entry, and also to see that the Indians were properly settled on their lands. On October 26 he reported that 14 settlers were living on these lands, to which they could get no title whatever, and he recommended that the department purchase their houses and other improvements, which he valued at $13,242.75, and turn them over to the Indians, who were in great need of everything of the sort. On November 11, 1903, this purchase was authorized by the department to be paid from the appropria- tion "Support of Indians in Arizona and New Mexico, 1904," and Special Agent D. W. Manchester obtained quitclaim deeds from the squatters, which were duly recorded. The squatters were then paid and they left the reservation. Among the buildings purchased was a public schoolhouse, in which an Indian day school was soon started, with an Indian girl, a "returned student," as teacher. ,0n November 4 Mr. Mead reported further that there were then 200 Indians on the reservation, and within a month the number would probably reach 500 or 600; and although the reservation contained a total of 24,971.11 acres, 2,275.18 acres were still held by 21 settlers who claimed valid rights thereto, and the tracts occupied by them comprised the very beet and only irrigable land, the balance being rough, arid, badly cut by arroyos, a,nd therefore of little or no value. To give 100 families 25 acres each would necessitate the securing of all lands controlled by the settlers, and all these settlers who had valid claims had tendered options for the purchase of their permanent improvements and of their rights to lands, as they desired to sell out rather than live within the confines of an Indian reservation. He therefore recom- mended that all their improvements and rights be purchased by the Government. On November 9, 1903, Mr. Mead transmitted the options from the 21 settlers, which amounted in the aggregate to $49,030 for their claims to lands and improvements and $6,983.25 for personal property. On January 6, 1904, the office reported the facts to the department and recommended that the valid claims and improvements of the settlers, but not their personal property, be purchased by the Government, and that for this purpose Congress be asked to appropriate $60,000. The appropriation was made in the act of April 21, 1904, and reads as follows: "To enable the Secretary of the Interior to purchase, in his discretion, at such price as he may deem reasonable and just, for the use and occupancy of the Indians of Verde River Valley and Camp McDowell, Arizona, and such other Indians as he may see fit to locate thereon, the claims of whatsoever nature to lands and permanent improve- ments placed upon said lands prior to November ninth, nineteen hundred and three, within the former Camp McDowell Abandoned Military Reservation, Arizona, now the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation, of such of the settlers thereon as may, upon- proper investigation, be found to have valid rights thereto under any laws of the United States; and also in his discretion to purchase the improvements located on said reservation of any or all of such settlers as may be found by such investigation not to Zi* EXFJfiKDirUliJfiS iJN 1— have valid rights attaching to the lands, the sum of not to exceed fifty thousand dollars' or so much thereof as may be necessarji, the same to be immediately available." ' Mr, George F. Wilson, a special agent of the General Land Office, was detailed to assist Mr. Mead in ascertainmg just what settlers had valid rights on the reservation and June 25, 1904, he reported that while it might be held that the lands occupied by the settlers had been legally settled upon, yet as no title had ever passed to them from the Government there could be no valid claims attaching to any part of the land; these settlers, in fact, were in the position Of squatters on uusurveyed piiblic land,' but as they had acted in good faith the Government was undoubtedly under a moral obligation to them, and this obligation had been taken into considertaion in appraising their improvements. On November 19, 1904, authority was granted to pay the settlers on the execution of quitclaim deeds to lands and improvements which had been valued by a board of appraisers appointed by Mr. Mead. It was found that 26 settlers had claims, and quitclaim deeds obtained from them were approved by the department and then returned to Arizona for record. Out of the $50,000 appropriation, 148,281.04 was disbursed in buying the claims, and the improvements purchased have been turned over to the additional farmer for the use of the Indians, who are now occupying the lands. The improvements included three irrigation ditches — the Jones and Shauver ditch, 6 miles long; the Mazon ditch, 3 miles long; and the Belasco ditch, 4 miles long — with all water nghts attaching thereto. There was also another public school building. Mr. Latimer. To get back to the introduction of letters that we broke away from a little while ago : I offer a letter from Camp McDowell Indian School, addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, dated February 16, 1911, and signed by — no one. From the contents and purport of the letter it is, in my judgment, from Mr. Coe. Will you examine that letter, Mr. Valentine, and state whether or not, from its contents and appearance, it is from Mr. Coe, your superintendent ? Mr. Valentine. You refer to this letter of February 16, unsigned? Mr. Latimer. Yes. Mr. Valentine. It is dated McDowell, Ariz., addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I note mention of a request for authority which would hardly be made by anybody except the super- intendent, and consequently I suppose it must have been written by the superintendent. Mr. Latimer. In the same file is a letter addressed to Superin- tendent Coe, in which they refer to the receipt of a letter of that kind. Mr. Valentine. Yes; and furthermore you will notice at the end of the unsigned letter there are the letters "V-CEC." That is our regular form, " V " standing for the stenographer and " CEC" standing for Charles E. Coe, the dictator. Mr. Latimer. Familiar as j'ou are with that systein. there is no question in your mind but what the letter is from Mr. Coe ? Mr. Valentine. I should pass that, unless I were looking for awfully deep fraud. Mr. Catlin. Mr. Coe forgot to sign it, and some man in the office put a memorandum on there ? Mr. Valentine. Somebody put that in in pencil; yes. The Chairman. Is it not more likely to be an office copy of the letter, and that the original is elsewhere ? Mr. Valentine. That looks to me like an original letter, Mr. Chair-, man. I have known that to occur once in awhile. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, have the facts with regard to the proposition to give these Indians allotments on the Salt River Eeser- vatioh been brought out ? BXi-JiiiDiTUUJils iJN TUJi UNijiiuuK DBPAKTMENT. 215 The Chairman. Some of them have. Some are sought to be brought out now. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner, has a definite order been issued for the allotment of lands on the Salt River Reservation to the Indians who have heretofore been occupyiag the Camp McDowell Reserva- tion? • Mr. Valentine. I do not know whether there is a definite order of that sort that has been issued or not. I know in a memorandum I have here there are 42 allotments that have already been made to the Indians from that reservation. Mr. MoNDELL. The work of allotting to those Indians on the Salt River Reservation is going on ? Mr. Valentine. It is, apparently. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you know whether those allotments are being made under the Arizona Canal ? Mr. Valentine. I think they are; yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. You feel confident they are ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, I feel confident they are. Mr. Mondell. The Arizona Canal is a large canal, which waters a large amount of land in the vicinity of Phoenix, and if allotments are made under this canal on the Salt River Reservation they will have a permanent water supply from storage sources under a large, estab- lisned, and well-constructed canal ? Mr. Valentine. That is our information from our field engineer. Mr. Mondell. In other words, the theory is that they will have there a water right that will not be difficult or expensive of mainte- nance and will be dependable at all times ? Mr. Valentine. Precisely. Mr. Latimee. On what theory are they being moved from the Verde ? Mr. Valentine. As you know, Mr. Mondell, I myself have never assented to that use of the word "moving." My understanding has always been that this was additional allotment on the Salt River, and the theory, as I understand it, of their being given land there, we will say — would that answer your question ? Mr. Mondell. Yes, indeed. Mr. Valentine. The theory is that the cost of construction of a permanent irrigation system on the Camp McDowell Reservation would be too costly in proportion to the amount of land to be cov- ered by it — and that is not the worst of it, but that the cost of main- tenance would be very great, whereas here the original share of the cost is less and the cost of maintenance far less. Mr. Mondell. The plan of allotting lands to these Indians on the Salt River Reservation under the Arizona Canal was decided upon before you went into the office, was it ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I think not. Mr. Mondell. It has been decided upon while you have been Commissioner ? Mr. Valentine. I think so. It appears through all the records. Mr. Mondell. These allotments of irrigable lands under these canals have been on the theory that it would not be practicable to maintain ditches on the Verde ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. 216 EXPENDITURES IN, THE INTBKIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. MoNDELL. Have you any report from Mr. Code, or any other engineer officer or irrigation officer in your department, in detail on the question of the shifting, silty, unstable character of the Verde ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. There are several reports, one of them at least, and I think more than one, that have just been inserted in the record* by Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. From an examination of these records, I have been unable to find any detailed statement of Mr. Code. The only thing that has been found anywhere, and I have that all ready for intro- duction, was the general allegation or statement that it will be too expensive, and one of them is a recommendation for a pumping station, which has never been followed down under any correspond- ence that I can find. If you have any of it in detail, I think it would be an excellent thing to have it produced. Mr. Valentine. I beg your pardon; I do not state we have it in detail. My recollection from the letter you read was that Mr. Code had in some detail stated why he considered the use of the Verde water as undesirable. If I am mistaken in that, the record itself will correct me. The Chairman. Perhaps he is giving theoretical reasons rather than the result of practical experiments. Mr. Valentine. When a statement of that kind comes from a man like Mr. Code, I have the feeUng that he has data to back it up. The Chairman. That is what we would like to get. Mr. Valentine. I think it would be most desirable to caU Mr. Code before this committee on this matter. The Chairman. Do you yourself know of any actual work done by the bureau or the department with reference to keeping open the Verde River Canals ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I do not myself know. May I have two minutes of the time of the committee, Mr. Chairman, for a brief state- ment at this point ? The Chairman. Yes, indeed. Mr. Valentine. I will make it as brief as possible. I want the committee to understand this part of the organization of the Indian Office. Mr. Latimer, apparently out of kindness for me personally, and the committee, has indicated several times that I personally did not laiow this or that, of course realizing, as anyone would, that it is impossible for the Commissioner of Indian Affairs himself, as a human being, to know everything that goes on, by first hand, in his bureau. He has to have subordinates, whom he has to trust, like any other organization. I am perfectly wdUng to assent to that theory by my silence up to a certain point, but not beyond that point. In other words, if tiiere is any feeling in the minds of the committee that they can remove me, or would, if they found I was not personally aware of the situation and feel that I was not personally responsible for that situation, I want to remove that impression now. I consider myself personally — perhaps "personally" is not the right word Mr. MoNDELL. Officially? Mr. Valentine. Yes; officially, ahsolutely — and you can under- score the word "absolutely," iir. Stenographer — responsible for everything that takes place in the Indian Office. When I make that statement, I do not mean to pretend to any more omniscience than EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 217 the ordinary human being ; but I want to say frankly to the commit- tee that I am responsible, and, as long as I am Commissioner of Indians Affairs I shall not shirk the responsibiUty for anything and everything.that is done there, because I am responsible, either through the signing of letters or taking action where I have been on the ground myself, where I myself am personally aware of the facts, and I am also responsible for everything that is done in the bureau and in the field through my subord.inates, because of my power to make such an organization and to maintain such check and balances as are in my power, subject of course to the fact that I have human beings to work with, and a somewhat — and I think it is no reflection on Congress — a somewhat comphcated body of legislation to work under. So, if now or at any future time I suggest the calling of any subordi- nate or any person who can give you more detailed information as to the facts, I want it understood at the beginning that it is not because I am trying to shift the load down the line to anyone else, but simply to give the committee the first-hand information on which I must myself rely, and I should consider it administratively impossible for me to follow first hand a lot of these things, and I have to rest my administration and its final judgment on the subordinates whom I chose, to a certain extent, and trust, and it would be up to me if I could not rely on it when a man like Mr. Code makes a statement, that the water conditions are better for the Camp McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reservation than on the Verde Reservation — if I can not rely on his having the points to make that good, and retain him in the service, then I am just as much responsible as if I myself knew those conditions could not be backed up. The Chairman. I think the committee appreciates the situation quite fully, but they distinguish clearly, I hope, between your official responsibility which, as you say, is absolute, and your personal knowledge about which you can testify as a witness, and that we see the necessity for keeping that distinction constantly in view. Mr. Valentine. I see it, absolute^; and I think it is only fair it should be kept in view, provided it does not put me in the position of looking as if I were disclaiming any kind of responsibility. The Chairman. I think the committee is quite aware that, as the official head of the bureau, you are responsible for the faults of your inferiors or subordinates; but that is quite another question from the one before us now, which is an attempt to get information about facts, and there, of course, you can only give us such facts as you have personal knowledge of. Mr. Valentine. Exactly; but in referring to others I want to be clear just what my relations to those others are. The Chairman. You can help us a great deal in that way by telUng us from time to time who can give us the facts from personal knowledge. Mr. Valentine. And that is why I feel it would be of the greatest help to the committee to summon Mr. Code and Mr. Merritt — and I mention Mr. Merritt, although perhaps I have not the official right to do so, because he is not in my department; but, at any rate, Mi\ Code and Mr. Orme, the president of the water users' association, who can give the respective Indian and white sides of the problem as Mr. Lati- mer has developed them. 218 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARXMiSJNX. The Chairman . He has no official connection with the Government ? Mr. Valentine. He has this official connection, Mr. Chairman, that as president of the water users' association I should assume it was he who would sign any contract governing the interchange of rights between Indians and whites. The Chaieman. A contractural relation with the Government, then? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; as exists, for example, in the case of the Pima Keservation and the water users' association there. Mr. MoNDELL. As I understand it, there were originally 2,000 acres under these ditches in the Camp McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. Tliirteen hundred or fourteen hundred acres. Mr. MoNDELL. Have you any knowledge of the fact whether, through the breaking of the ditches, possibly the washing out of the head gates, the amount of irrigable lands was reduced greatly, so it was only 300 or 400 acres ? Mr. VALENTINE. Our office records show, by washing out of the ditches and the actual loss of certain irrigable portions of the land being swept away, it has been reduced to about 450 acres. Mr. MoNDELL. The water was diverted by means of brush dam or brush dams ? Mr. Valentine. I have been under the impression there was a great deal of riprapping, which would be brushwork. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you know whether the paragraph in the decree of the court touching water rights, to which reference has. been made, which seems to embody a waiver or indicate a waiver of water rights to the use of ditches on the Verde, had anything to do with the determination with regard to giving the Indians water rights on the Salt « Mr. Valentine. May I prevail upon you to repeat that ? Mr. MoNDELL. The court's decree to which we have referred con- tains a reference to a waiver of the water rights on the Camp McDowel Reservation. Did your decision to give Indians water rights on the Salt River have anything to do with or was it based partly on the fact of that waiver ? In other words, that you no longer had any water rights there, even if you had ditches, and therefore there was nothing to be gained by giving allotments on a river on which you did not have water rights. Is that your idea ? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge first-hand of that at all. Mr. MoNDELL. You do not loiow whether the decree had anything, to do with the decision relative to giving them irrigated lands on the Salt? Mr. Valentine. I should assume the decree must have had, but just what the details of it were which bear on that, I do not know, because I do not know myself whether the Indians had water rights on the Verde or not. The Chairman. You say you assumed that to be so. You speak there just as any of us who reads the decree might speak? Mr. Valentine. Precisely. The Chairman. Have you any other knowledge than the rest of us? Mr. Valentine. Not so much as most of the rest of you, I think, on that particular point. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, 219 Mr. MoNDELL. Of course, if the Indians have no water rights there in these Verde ditches, it would be a bootless undertaking to give them allotments. Mr. Valentine. If |ihat is the case, the talk of retaining what they ■ have not got on the McDowell to take something that they can not have at the other place would be very seK-evident. Mr. MoNDELL. You have not at any time proposed to give them allotments in severalty under the ditches on Cam McDowell Reser- vation ? Mr. Valentine. The point has been up and, as I recall and as I have seen the record on this subject, it was almost upon the start considered impracticable to allow them on the McDowell Eeserva- tion. Mr. MoNDBLL. An allotment of land to Indians under the canals on the Salt River, rather than under other canals on the Verde, •would necessarily involve a removal, in the sense that it would require their presence on these irrigated lands, at least a large por- tion of the season, would it not ? Mr. Valentine. It would require their presence at least a large portion of the farming season. Mr. Mondell. Therefore, unless they maintain two domiciles, their more permanent home would be upon their irrigated lands ? Mr. Valentine. Precisely. As I would put it myself, as I know the conditions, if I were a Camp McDowell Indian, I think I should go down and hve on Salt River and estabhsh my home there on the 10 or 15 or 20 acres, as it might be, with my family there. Mr. Latimer. But you state you do not know whether they ever owned any water rights? Mr. Valentine. Upon the McDowell. I do not myself know what title, if any, they have to the water on the McDowell Reserva- tion. Mr. Latimer. With that premise, would you still state that you would go anyway, without kaowing anything about what they have at Camp McDowell ? Mr. Valentine. I said from the general situation as it is before me, and as I know it from my people, that I would take Mr. Code's advice and establish myself on the Salt River. If I had title to water rights up above that still remaining to me I could sell them or otherwise. Mr. Latimer. I asked you at the last hearing to give me the figures that you had spent for maintenance on Camp McDowell from June 30, 1910, to date. Have you those figures ? Mr. Valentine. There has been no expenditure except in the employment of a superintendent of ditches at 1100 a month. Back of that the report shows — Mr. Latimer had those figures the other day — that the expenditure at Camp McDowell for building previous to June 30, 1910, was $4,312.07; for maintenance, $2,743.29. It might not be irrelevant to call attention to the fact that that is over half of what was spent on the building, but of course that would not include the original plant. Mr. Latimer. That would go to show, Mr. Valentine, the fact that all the Government has done since its purchase or creation of this reservation in 1903 — and purchased the water rights of these other ditches from the farmers in 1904 — all the Government has spent in 220 EXPENDITITBES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. any way, shape, manner, or form on those ditches has been the sum of $7,055.36 up to June 30, 1910 ? The Chairman. Covering a period of how many years ? Mr. Latimer. A part of 1903, all of 1904, and up to and includmg June 30, 1910. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. My recollection is that some testimony is already in, and I think it is Mr. Ijuepp's testimony, to the effect that the usual assessment for repairs was $2 per year per acre. Mr. Valentine. I made the statement that our average cost of irrigation throughout the country — that is, including everything, dams and purchases of rights and ditches and laterals and every- thing — is $17 an acre. That is what it cost the Indians in the spend- ing of the $5,000,000 already spent in putting the land under irriga- tion, and of that $17, $15 has gone to structures. The Chairman. First cost you mean ? Mr. Valentine. First cost, and $2 to maintennance. Mr. MoNDELL. Do I understand you that you assume a mainte- nance cost of $2 per care on irrigation systems per annum. Mr. Valentine. I think that is what it would be; yes. Mr. MoNDELL. Per annum, every year ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know about that. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you know what the ordinary charge on a private ditch under the Reclamation Service is ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. It is very much less than that. Your recollection is that that is the amount it costs ordinarily to maintain ditches on your Indian reservation per annum ? Mr. Valentine. The maintenance cost of Indian projects would be much higher than the reclamation cost. One reason that can be seen on the face of the figures is the construction cost is lower. The projects as a rule are not as permanent in character. For instance, a great many of our very efficient Indian projects, with the money placed at. our disposal by Congress, are woodwork, whereas the Reclamation Service projects are heavy cement. Con- sequently our construction cost of $15 is remarkably low, and their average is a great deal more than that; whereas our maintenance is high and their maintenance charge, being more in perpetuity, is low. Just what the figures are, I think I can give you in the morning. Mr. MoNDELL. Their maintenance charge, if I recollect rightly, is about $1 maximum and less, running down from that, whue tne maintenance charges on private ditches, large ones, well constructed, are still lower. The Chairman. You must proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Coming back to the Camp McDowell project, I call your attention, Mr. Valentine, to your report to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for the year 1910, and direct your attention to page 59, under Table 6, "Expenditures for irrigation work on Indian reservations during fiscal year ended June 30, 1910, and total ex- penditures for that date," headed "Projects or reservation. Camp McDowell, expenditures fiscal year 1910, $ ; expenditures to June 30, 1910, $7,055.36; estimated additional cost to complete," and there is an a, referring to a footnote below, which says : No data available as to eetimated cost, only rough preliminary surveys having been made. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 221 The next is the "Acreage under project pn June 30, 1910, 450 acres," with a letter 6, referring to a footnote, which says: Shows acreage now under ditch. No information to show acreage under project. Passing to the next head, we find "Acreage under ditch June 30, 1910, 450 acres." This report was compiled with care and with full information be- fore you as to the condition at Camp McDowell at that time, was it not? Mr. Valentine. It should have been so. Mr. Latimer. If there had been detailed reports, or reports that were of any kind of a specific nature from Engmeer Code, as to these ditches, or the fact of making new ones, or putting in a head in a dani or anything like that, jou would hardly have had them under those footnotes, would you ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. From June 30, 1910, judging from that report which you say is based on the best information in your office, there was a water right and existing ditches for 450 acres, judging from your report. Mr. Valentine. They have been using the water, but what their actual title as to the water is I do not know. Mr. Latimer. They were using it as irrigating water for 450 acres at that time. Mr. Valentine. Whether they had perpetual right to it or not I do not know. Mr. Latimer. Whether they had any right, you do not know ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know. Mr. Latimer. But there was at least a basis for a water right there? Mr. Valentine. Not necessarily. There might have been prior filings on that water that would have taken it up, but the Indians were simply allowed to use it under the law pending the completion Or the coming forward and saying of the people who had the right, "We want the water now." Mr. Latimer. Why would you then thiak it advisable for these Indians to intervene in a suit down in Phoenix, in the Salt River Valley, when they have those rights as you have indicated out at Camp McDowell? Mr. Valentine. Because they might have had some; I do not know. Mr. Latimer. As a business proposition, do you see any advantage in the Camp McDowell Indians intervening in a suit for the adjudi- cation of their water rights on the Verde River, in a suit involving primarily the water rights from Salt River of a large number of settlers, where if they had not intervened, the question of their rights in the Camp McDowell Reservation could in no way have been affected? Mr. Valentine. I do not know that I quite follow your question. That is, I understand your question, but I did not follow your idea. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Chairman, I think the gentleman should be entirely accurate in asking his questions. It seems to me the question can not be well answered without involving error. The gentleman's question is in error. The water rights on Salt River could not be 222 EXPENDITtTRES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPABTMENT. adjudicated without taking into consideration the water rights on the Verde, tributary to the same. Mr. Latimer. I am -judging entirely, Mr. Chairman, from the advice of the Indian Commissioner and heretofore introduced in evidence in this suit from the only attorney that I have seen that the Indian Department has consulted, that they did npt need to go into that suit at all, and that their rights could not in any way be affected. ,,, Mr. MoNDELL. Anyone who wrote that sort of a letter certainly did not understand the kindergarteij. of irrigation. There is a river that flows into the Salt River. Here is a proposition to adjudicate the water rights on the Salt River below the point at which that river flows into the Salt. The water rights of the Verde are all involved in the question of the water rights of the Salt and would have to be considered in that suit. Mr. Latimer. But could the Government be made a party to that suit unless they voluntarily entered it ? Mr. MoNDELL. That is, uncle Sam, as guardian of the Indians, is no bigger than any citizen when it comes to the question of his rights of property. Mr. Latimer. So far as being sued is concerned, are you posted on that question? Mr. MoNDELL. The Government is not a sovereign in the matter of the ownership of property in a sovereign State as against the property holders in that State. Mr. Valentine. If I may make the suggestion, I have been trying to answer your questions just as well as I can, which I think you wifl appreciate; but it does seem to me that you would make faster prog- ress if you will call a lawyer and an engiceer and quiz them on this particular thing. Mr. Latimer. No; Mr. Valentine, my question was caused entirely by the fact that you frequently gave Mr. Mondell many opinions of your own in reference to what should or should not be done in refer- ence to these Indians. Following that line, it was sixnply my purpose to try to clear up that testimony a little bit and see where we were getting. Mr. Valentine. I will admit that at the instance of the committee or anyone else who may want to ask questions, I have talked as frankly as I knew how, and I do not doubt in fQUo'vying that policy I may say a lot of foolish things that I do not know about, and sq J wanted — no ; I do not say that I do not know about them, but that my personal opinion would not be worth a hill of beans, on them., sjn^ I simply want to call your attention to the fact that if th^ questioa came up before me, as it is now up before you, I myself am the last person I would consult in regard to it. ,: ■ , Mr. Latimer. I thought you were trying to answer Mr. Mondell in a somewhat authoritative way. Mr. Valentine. No; I am not an engineer. Mr. Latimer. And trying to give it a little broader view before the committee. , Mr. Valentine. I am neither an engineer nor a lawyer, and iffl your place I should not consult with me. ,, , .. ,^ , ^ jj. Mr. IjAtimer. I call your attention, Mr. Commi^giQper, tV yOJfJ? report of 1910, again, at page 18 where you state that the Salt Kivel' EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 223 Reservation has been separated from the Pima Agency and placed under the jurisdiction of the Camp McDowell superintendent; that the property and employees of the Salt River and Lehigh day schools have been transferred to Camp McDowell ; that one large new day- school plant is contemplated at Salt River to accommodate the Camp McDowell Indians who took allotments at Salt River. In the records which have been fxirnished the committee I can find no record whatever of any allotments made to any Camp McDowell Indian prior to June 30, 1910. Would you be kind enough to examine your records and give us the allotments to which you refer in your report to which I have just called your attention ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; I will look that up. Mr. Latimer. Turning to the letters which I believe were received from Mr. Coe, I will offer, in conjunction with the other documentary- evidence that we have introduced, a letter dated Camp McDowell, February 16, 1907, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, from Supt. Coe, and I call your particular attention to the para- graph in which request is made that authority be granted to expend $2.50 per daj^ for laborers with team and $1.25 a day for laborers individually in the construction of a ditch necessary to irrigate the lands on Salt River, the letter reading in full as follows: Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February 16, 1911. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, . Washington, D. C. ' Sir: Supervisor of Allotting. Agents Carl. Gunderson .has just, visited this agency, and while here took up with the Canip McDowell Indians the question of their taking allotments on the Salt River Reservation. These Indians, in a mass meeting, rejected all the proposals made to them and requested the supervisor to ask that they be allotted all tlieir lands on the Camp McDowell Reservation. They asked, further, that a permanent dam and headworks be constructed in the Verde River in order to irrigate said lands. About a year ago, in a meeting with Inspector Joseph H. Norris, these same Indians said they were able to keep up their own dam and ditches and would not ask the Government for any aid. I have just learned that this change in their attitude is the result of letters they have been receiving from Dr. Carlos Montezuma, who has been telling them to stick together in their determination to stay at McDowell and that they could get a concrete dam, etc., in the Verde here by asking for it. House bill 31920, introduced January 23, 1911, providing for the allotment of the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation, a copy of which Dr. Montezuma has sent to Chief Yuma Frank, with the assurance that it was sure to pass either this session or the next, and advising all the Indians to stick together, sign no papers, accept no allotments at Salt River, and stay where they are, no doubt will have the effect of halting allot- ments until Congress disposes of it. However, a beginning has been made. A few of the young people were induced to go down and meet Supervisor Gunderson and Allotting Agent Roblin upon the lands selected for these Indians. After seeing the size of the tracts they would receive and how desirable the lands were, they all accepted allotments, and Mr. Roblin made reservations for 22 of them. This. is a good start, and the young people making it deserve a great deal of credit for taking the step in the face of the violent opposition of the rest of the tribe. I have been talking with some of the more progressive Indians, and now feel sure that four or five more families will take allotments at Salt River soon. , But I believe, owing to the outside Influence, it will be impossible to do anything with the majority of these Indians at present. I have requested that authority be granted to expQijd the sum, of 1776 in the employ- ment of Indians with teams at the rate of $2 '50 per day and of laborers at $1.25 per day, in .the construction of the ditches necessary to irrigate the lands at Salt River. I have notseparated the it«ms of labor with teams and common laborers, as it is impos- sible just now to give the proportion of each class that will be necessary. If there 224 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOB DEPARTMENT. are any lunds available, I think this should be allowed as it is needed and will gi^ the people accepting allotments some encouragement. The above-mentioned request was submitted through Supervisor Gunderson. Very respectfully, CoE, Superintendent. I also call your attention to and oflfer in evidence a letter from th Indian Commissioner's Office dated March 9, 1911, addressed to M Charles E. Coe, superintendent, sig;ned by C. F. Hauke, secon assistant commissioner, reading as follows: March 9, 1911. Mr. CriAitLES E. Coe, Superintendent Camp McDoivdl Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sir: The office has received your letter of February 16, 1911, regarding legislatio authorizing allotments to Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation; also a lett( from Supervisor Gunderson under date of February 10, 1911, pertaining to the sam matter. On January 23, 1911, a bill was introduced in the House (No. 31920) providing U the allotment of lands on the Camp McDowell Reservation and no further actio appears to have been taken on the bill other than its reference to the Committee o Indian Affairs. The office is gi-atified to note from your letter that the Indians of the Camp McDowel Reservation are beginning to see wherein it will prove to their benefit to move to am accept allotments on the Salt River Reservation; your report indicating that 22 c these Indians have already selected lands on the Salt River Reservation wanted i allotment. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commisiioner, (Carbon to Supervisor Gunderson.) I also call your attention to and introduce in evidence a letter frorc Camp McDowell Indian School, dated March 2, 1910, addressed U the Commissoner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, signed bj Charles E. Coe, superintendent, and reading as follows: Depaktment of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., Mardi S, 1910. The Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have received your letter of February 21, concerning the rebuilding of the dam on this reservation. I found on taking charge here that the Indians had considerable grain sowed (ap proximately 240 acres), which was about all up nicely. The dam was out and in ordei to save the crop I estimated for the Indian labor to rebuild the dam and to repair the ditch. The rate of pay was made very low, just enough to provide the workeia witl a little subsistence while doing the work. I was told that had always been done here, After waiting some time for a reply I saw that work would have to begin immediatelj or the crop would perish. I then told the Indians to do the work and explained tc them that I had asked for funds to pay them for the labor, but could not promise them that they would be allowed. We expect to have water flowing in the canal bj March 5. The above course seemed to me to be the only one to pursue. At that time I had not been informed of the plan to remove these Indians to lands under lie Salt Eivei irrigation project. Such plans can not be worked out in time for a crop to be raised there this season. I think it is best for the Indians to go ahead witii their fanning here. The work they are doing is entirely for their own benefit and if there are no fundi to pay them for it as has always been done in the past they will have to do it withoul compensation. However, they seem to have had a rather hard winter, are all pretty hungry and this small sum would be of great assistance to them. Very respectfully, Charles E. Cob, SupmrdmdeiA- Eia-ri v xT im -iJNxEBIOB DEPAETMENT. 225 Attached to that letter is a voucher showing a payment of $425, as follows: Three hundred days of Indian labor at 75 cents, $225; 160 days of Indian labor with team, $1.25, $200; total, $425. Can you explain the reason for the apparent practice of your department to pay Indian laborers on Salt River Reservation the price of $2.50 a day with team, and $1.50 for the individual, and on the McDowell Reservation $1.25 for the individual with team, and 75 cents for the individual without team ? Mr. MoNDELL. Before he answers that question, I would like to ask a question. This letter refers to the Salt River Reservation, does it not ? Mr. Latimer. This [indicating] is Salt River, and this [indicating] is McDowell. Mr. MoNDELL. But is it ? Then he goes on to say that he desires to be authorized to pay for the diggmg out and repairing of the Verde ditches, and that is the payment. Evidently his basis is 50 per cent Mr. Latimer (interrupting). If you will look at the two others, you will find that you are confused. Now, Mr. Commissioner, I ask you to identify that paper, if it is from your office. Mr. Valentine. It might help to clear up the trouble. As Mr. Latimer has already shown, my recollection that Salt River Reserva^ tion was still under the Pima superintendent is wrong, and at the time I wrote it in my annual report Mr. Merritt called my attention, just before this session began, to the fact that the Salt River Reserva- tion came under the jurisdiction of Camp McDowell superintendent on July 1, 1910. _ Mr. Latimer. And your superintendent- then, writing and refer- ring to the Salt River Reservation, would probably mean that reser- vation; and when he said, "work on the Verde and Camp McDowell,"' he would mean that, would he not ? Mr. Valentine. That might be the case, since he was superintend- ent of both reservations. Mr. MoNDELL. I see that letter refers to the work on Camp McDow- ell Reservation, and the other refers to the other work. The Chairman. I see no reason why the witness may not answer the question in his own way without any assistance. He is of age and knows the circumstances, and if he knows the answer he can give it, and if he does not know it he can say so. Mr. Valentine. The witness is showing no disposition not to answer the questions. The Chairman. No; the interruption was entirely without his request. Mr. MoNDELL. The interruption was for the purpose of making thoroughly understandable the situation. Mr. Valentine. May I have the latter part of the question read ? The Stenographer (reading) : ■ Can you explain the reason for the apparent practice of your department to pay Indian laborers on the Salt River Reservation the price of $2.50 a day with team, and 11.50 for the individual, and on the McDowell Reservation $1.25 for the individual with team, and 75 cents for the individual without team? 98240— No. 6—11 5 226 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEiuji uaira.D,j.iyj.rjvij.. Mr. Valentine. I could not, without looking the matter up. It might be due to a difference in the labor conditions, and a number of things. Mr. MoNDELL. All of these payments are in the nature of a gra- tuity, are they not ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Mondell. And the pohcy of the office is to make them as low as possible where the Indians are working on their own affairs? The Chairman (interposing). Why are they gratuities? Is not the work done, and if done by anybody else would it not have to be paid for ? Mr. Valentine. It is not the custom for people to be paid for work on their own farms. Mr. George. As I understand, the Government undertakes to provide certain things, but whether these men be asked to work under the Government to provide these things, or whether other people be asked, is immaterial. I do not think it could be regarded as a gratuity for the Government to supply services of some sort — to supply water, to supply wood, or blankets, or anything else. If you gave the work of suppl3dng to certain Indians on that reser- vation, or if you gave it to outsiders, the whole thing has to be borne by the Government, and if the work of providing tlwse things should be given to the reservation Indians, why should that be a fratuity? Perhaps I am not understanding the proposition clearly, ut I would like to have that made very clear. Mr. Valentine. I think, Mr. George, if you look a little into our Indian policy, you would see the bearing of this thing. It is per- fectly true it is part of our policy to give certain things to the Indians in order to get them started ; but it is even more fundamentally our policy to do everything possible to get the Indians to be self-support- mg, and to cut out everything in the nature of gratuities. In the old days, it was the custom years ago to pay them for working on their "own places. Nowadays, we feel they should work the way you or I would, for nothing, on our own farms, or as nearly for nothing, afe possible. Frequently we limit them simply to what is necessary for subsistence, as they are away from home. ' Mr. George. But this is fixing a ditch, is it not ? Mr. Valentine. Their own ditch. Mr. George. If they had not fixed it, who would ? Mr. Valentine. Tliey would have to go out and pay outsiders regular wages for doing it, just as you would have to. If you could not fix your own ditch, you would have to pay outsiders. Mr. George. Is that their ditch ? Mr. Valentine. That is problematical. Mr. George. Then how can it be a gratuity? Mr. Valentine. If it is not their ditch, it is for their use — I mean for their use and benefit Mr. Mondell (interrupting). It was their ditch in the sense that they were living under it and irrigating the land and getting the crops ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, and profiting thereby. I think the meanmg is perfectly clear. Mr. Mondell. I use the word as it is ordinarily used in the service, and I will just ask one or two questions to develop that. JBiXJr'JfiJNUlTUKBS IN THinH'TEBlOB DEPARTMENT. 227 Mr. Commissioner, the funds out of which these things were made were funds for the support of the Indians, not reimbursable. Mr. Valentine. Precisely. Mr. MoNDELL. In other words, they were grants by Congress in the form of a gratuity ? ' Mr. Valentine. Precisely; in other words Mr. MoNDELL (interrupting). Just a moment. As compared with the kind of expenditures which the Government sometimes makes in hiring Indians to do their own work and payiag them Government money for it, to the Indians on reservations, where they have funds, if they are paid for work on such reservations, they are paid out of funds that belong to themselves ? Mr. Valentine. Exactly. Mr. Latimer. What funds have the Salt River Reservation Indians to draw from? Mr. Valentine. So far as I know, they have no funds. Mr. LatimeJi. Are both reservations in the same situation with reference to that 1 Mr. Valentine. So far as I know in reference to that. But I would point out, in further elucidation of Mr. Mondell's point, which he stated very admirably, that so far as I know practically every- thing that the Camp McDowell Indians have might be called a gra- tuity. The reservation itself might be called a gratuity. The $50,000 appropriated for the purchase of rights was appropriated out of the general funds of the United States, and came from the philanthropy of the United States, and was a gratuity. Mr. Hensley. Why the difference in the nature of it ? Why the greater liberality in one instance than in the other ? Mr. Valentine. The greater liberality is in the fact it tended less to injure the backbone and moral stamina of the people. Mr. Henslet. In other words, in your judgment an Indian in the Salt River Valley ought to make $2.50 if the Indian on the Camp McDowell Reservation is making $1.25, with a team in each instance ? Mr. Valentine. I will tell you why I think he was paid $2.70 — because he could go out and get that amount by working outside, and he would not work on his own ditches, and the Government was up against it. ' Mr. Henslet. That is your opinion ? Mr. Valentine. That is my opinion, and a pretty good one too. Mr. Hensley. Suppose I call your attention to the fact that the Camp McDowell Indians are forced, because of the neglect of their "ditches, to go out and make money, and are getting regular wages. Mr. Valentine. I know some of them are working in some copper mines and are doing very well. The Chairman. Coming back to a remark you made a moment ago, that everything the McDowell Indians have is a gratuity, do I understand that originally they did not have any territory which, in a sense, might be called their own ? Mr. Valentine. So far as I know they were The Chairman (interposing). Were they off the earth before they got on McDowell ? Mr. Valentine. They were hardly off the earth, but they were located on the public domain in the Southwest, and, speaking broadly, it was the conscience of the American people that was back of Con- 228 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. gress or the President in making all these reservations and giving them to the Indians. It was part of the great philanthropic move on the part of the public toward the Indians. It is the basis of our Indian poHcy and differs essentially from a legal right. If we had not had the conscience, I know of no law and I know of nothing in the Constitution that would have made the Congress of the United States or the President'of the United States give the Camp McDowell Indians or any other Indians in that vicinity a single cent or a siagle acre of land. Mr. Hensley. If we had not had the power in the first instance, we would not have crowded them back. The Chairman. By that you mean we did have the physical or the military power to annihilate them ? Mr. Valentine. I mean to make clear the distinction in a more positive sense that where the Government has itself solemnly entered into treaties with the Indians the obligation underlying an Executive order is a moral one and not a legal one. The Chairman. It is more than a moral one after the treaty is entered into. It becomes a political obligation at least. Mr. Valentine. When the treaty is entered into. Here there was no treaty, so far as I know. These Indians can thank the conscience of the people of the United States for the fact that they have 24,000 acres of land, that the Government has spent $50,000 in buying land for them, and that it has given them such things as it has out of the Public Tresaury, as they do not give to you or to me. The Chairman. And in that sense these particular Indians are on at least as good footing as any other Indian tribe ? Mr. Valentine. I should say per capita. The Chairman. Having been friendly to the Government in times of need ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; and I should say per capita the Govem- ment has done for them about as much as it was able to do out of the Public Treasury for other Indians in the Southwest. Mr. Latimer. Your position is that it is a matter of charity so far as they are concerned — that they never rendered any service to the Government ? Mr. Valentine. I do not like to call it charity. Mr. Latimer. You consider it is a gratuity, for they have rendered no service to the Government ? Is that your view ? Mr. Valentine. I would not say that. They have been ia the service of the Government in many ways. Mr. Latimer. Do you remember the history of the great outlaw Indian chief down there that Gen. Crook had such a time in capturing ? Mr. Vatentine. Geronimo ? Mr. Latimer. Yes, sir. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Do you know that the Mohave Apaches are the people that Gen. Crook gives absolute credit to for the scouting that led to the capture of that man, in letters that have to do with this Camp McDowell Reservation, and that it was in recognition of that that they were attempted to be given that reservation first, before the President in 1903 made an Executive order reserving any part of it ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. 229 Mr. Valentine. I should say that service was so great it could not be framed in terms of money. It was an act of patriotism for ■Miich nothing could pay. Mr. Latimer. I was trying to explain that gratuity, to see whether it might be in other words a charity. Mr. MoNDELL. Do I understand the Army did not have any- thing to do with the capture of Geronimo, and that those Indians are alone entitled to the credit ? Mr. Valentine. I have always understood there was some cooper- ation. Mr. MoNDELL. I thought you said Gen. Crook stated they were entitled to all the credit. The Chairman. They did render services that were very valuable. . Mr. MoNDELL. I have no doubt, but we have a lot of good soldiers down there. Mr. Latimer. As I understand this, Mr. Valentine, if a treaty reservation or a congressional reservation — that is, one founded by act of Congress — I intended to get at your question, Mr. Hensley Mr. Hensley. Yes. Mr. Valentine. I understand your question to be: Is a treaty reservation different from an Executive order reservation ia that it is founded by act of Congress ? Mr. Latimer. I have not got that far yet. Mr. Valentine. Will you kindly repeat your question ? Mr. Latimer. My question embraced the words "treaty" and "congressional," and I as understand it they are absolutely synony- mous. It is a reservation created by Congress. Is that right ? Mr. Valentine. I should not consider that an exact definition. Mr. Latimer. Can you name a treaty reservation that has been created without the assistance of an act of Congress? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I can not. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you know of any treaty reservation the bound- aries of which or the rights of the Indians in which have been fixed by act of Congress ? Mr. Valentine. They have been confirmed by act of Congress. Mr. MoNDELL. Have they been confirmed by act of Congress in the first instance ? If so, where ? Mr. Valentine. I am under the impression that all the Sioux country, as it has been created and diminished, has been done entirely by act of Congress. Mr. Mondell. Is it not true that the President has the power to create a treaty reservation and make a treaty with Indians without an act of Congress, except under an act of the Senate iu confirming treaties ? The Chairman. I would like to suggest that we wait untU we get an expert on the question and not waste time by asking Mr. Valentine. Have you anything else ? Mr. George. Mr. Chairman, there is just one thing. It relates to a matter about which I asked the commissioner the other day — that is, as to certain information about "copper." I am interested in that word down to the ground. Where is this copper ? Mr. Valentine. I am sorry, Mr. George, to discount your search for this Eider Haggard mine, but I have an unhappy way that when 230 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPAB.TMENT. I look over a lot of documents I have a lot of things catch in my mind, and in looking over some statement as to what the McDowell Indians were doing I got the impression that 10 or 12 or some num- ber of them were away at work in some mine, but whether or not they were copper mines I do not exactly recall. I think I can find" out, if you will pardon me a moment. Mr. George. I do not want to take up.your time. You brought that out so quickly that I thought you knew about that, and I was interested. Mr. Valentine. I would Mke to state, Mr. Chairman, to Mr. Lati--. mer, in connection with these letters that he is inserting in the record, this : I think I stated the other day that I did not recall any of this record. I do want to say that on his reading that long letter of Mr. Alexander's, I think it was, I do recall having seen that letter. What reminded me that I had seen the letter was his statement in it that these Pima and Maricopa Indians of the Salt River Reservation might object to the presence of the McDowell Indians, and, conse- quently, he recommended that he be not consulted. I recall this very distinctly as having seen that and making some figures and sul> mitting them to some one in the office in connection with the matter, and stating that I would not stand for a minute for that sort of thing; that the Indians must be treated with perfect candor and frankness, and people can not be injected among them in that underhand sort of way. Mr. Latimer. There is no question of mine that brought that out. Mr. Valentine. No, but I did see that letter. I did not handle it, and I did not do anything with it, except to give an order; whether it was oral or written, I do not know; but that sort of thing I would not stand for. The Chairman. Is there anything further from Mr. Latimer? Mr. Latimer. In conjunction with your report for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1910, in which you speak of the McDowell Indians who were taking allotments at that stage, I call your attention to the file here, which I believe is from your office ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Letter from the Salt River Indian Reservation, Scotts- dale, Ariz., February 10, 1911, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Carl Gunderson, supervisor of allotting agents, reading as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Salt River Indian Reservation, Scottsdale, Ariz., February 10, 1911. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: While investigating the reasons why the Camp McDowell Indians refuse to move to the Salt River Reservation and take allotments there, I learned that an Indian by the name of Dr. Carlos Montezuma, of Chicago, had written a letter to a Camp Mc- Dowell Indian telling him that a bill had been introduced in Congress which providea for allotting the Camp McDowell Indians 20 acres each of irrigable land, and that they would be permitted to use the remainder of the reservation for grazing purposes; that if the bill did not pass this session it would pass at the next session. It will be apparent to the office that the Indians, who appear to have confidence m this man, will not consent to any removal as long as there exists any assurance that they will be allotted where they live. This assurance, if it has any foundation, must, be removed before we can secure a complete removal. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 231 I will therefore request that the office write Superintendent Coe and furnish him with a copy of the bill, if such a bill has been introduced, and explain the present status of the bill and state the prospects which it has for becoming a law. I will also request that a copy of office letter to Mr. Coe be sent to me. It is very important that this information be sent to Mr. Coe as soon as possible, in order to remove one of the chief reasons for objecting to removal and allotment at this time. Very respectfully, Carl Gundbrson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents. Mr. Latimer. The next is a letter dated March 1, 1911, and pur- ports to be a reply from the Indian Commissioner. It is a letter from the Indian Commissioner's Office, addressed to David Gilbert a,nd Minnie Gilbert (through the superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School), McDowell, Ariz., and signed C. F. Hauke, second assistant commissioner, reading as follows: March 1, 1911. Bated Gilbert and Minnie Gilbert, McDowell, Ariz. (Through Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School.) My Friends: It has been brought to the attention of the office that you are the ffirst two Indians belonging on the Camp McDowell Reservation who have agreed to accept allotments on the Salt River Reservation and have indicated your willingness by selecting the lands wanted in allotment. The office is very much pleased with your action in this matter and hopes that you will use your good influence to induce other members of your tribe to select irrigable lands on the Salt River Reservation. It should be needless, of course, to add that the office believes the irrigation project on the Salt River Reservation to be an assured one, while the prospect of furnishing permanent water satisfactorily controlled for such lands as may be susceptible of irrigation on the Camp McDowell is very uncertain. It will be readily seen, therefore, that it is to the best interest of the Indians to take in allotment lands which practically have a guaranteed supply of water for irrigation purposes. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. (Carbon to Supervisor Carl Gunderson.) Mr. Valentine. Mr. Latimer, as I have every reason to believe the allotments of the Salt River Indians were for the best interests of the Indians, I only wish I had signed that letter myself instead of leaving the honor to Mr. Hauke. Mr. Latimer. There must be some error, however, in your report with reference to the Indians having taken allotments previous to June 30, 1910, or else that letter is wrong. Mr. Valentine. What date did they take the allotment ? Mr. Latimer. February 10, 1911, is the date when it was reported to your office by this letter. Mr. Valentine. Yes; but they may have taken them some time before that. Mr. Latimer. Well, there are other letters here explaining that. Have you the roll made of Camp McDowell Indians for the purpose of this allotment of the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge as to whether we have or not. Mr. Latimer. Will you ascertain ? "Mr. Valentine. We have a census of them. Mr. Latimer. And wUl you ascertain and state the date of the allotment to these two Indians I have just mentioned ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. 232 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Latimer. State the allotment and where the roll was prepared, and produce the roll, if you please, for that. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. What were their names, please ? Mr. Latimer. David Gilbert and Minnie GUbert. The next is a letter from Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., dated February 25, 1911, addressed to the honorable Com- missioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by Charles E. Coe, superintendent, reading as follows: Sir: Supervisor of allotting agents — I suppose this letter need not be read in full ? The Chairman. Do you wish it put into the record ? Mr. Latimer. Yes, I want it to go into the record. The Chairman. All right. Mr. Mondell. What is this letter ? Mr. Latimer. The letter from the agent to the Indian Commis- sioner, simply showing the steps. The Chairman. Has that letter been identified ? Mr. Latimer. Yes. (The letter referred to is as follows) : Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February 25, 1911. Honorable Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson recommended that Chief Juan Chappo and another Indian from Salt River, who were opposing the allotment work there and had practically blocked it, be taken to Sacaton for a conference with Inspector E. B. Linnen and llr. Sniffen at the same time the McDowell Indians were taken over. Juan Chappo 's principal reason for his opposition was that he was not satisfied that the allotting agent was a properly authorized officer of the department. And that he did not thoroughly understand what allotment means. He also said he was waiting until the Indians from all the reservations in central Arizona met in a big council at Sacaton. He seemed to think Inspector Linnen would call this council. He very reluctantly consented to go with us to meet Mr. Linnen, prefening to wait for a council. He finally agreed to go, provided he could take his own interpreter and another Pima Indian, Juan Jones, as a witness. Inspector Linnen met these people on the morning of February 23 and explained at length all the objections they offered. Juan Chappo then agreed to go back to Salt River Resr-rvation and tell all his people the things the inspector explained to him, take his own allotment, and to advise all the other Indians to do so. We therefore feel that our trip to Sacaton, with both the delegates from the McDowell Indians and Chief Juan Chappo and party from Salt River, will result in a great deal of good. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Mr. Latimer. Letter of February 25, 1911, signed by Charles E. Coe, superintendent, addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, reading as follows: Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February 25, 191U Honorable Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson, under telegraphic instructions from your office, visited the Camp McDowell Reservation again on February 20 fe take up further the question of allotments with the McDowell Indians. Not being EXPENDITURES IN a?HE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 233 able to get the Indians to agree to the proposals made to them, Mr. Gundereon sug- gested to them that they send a few delegates to Sacaton, Ariz., to talk the niatter over with Inspector Linnen of the Secretary's office and with Mr. M. K. Sniffen, representing the Indian Rights Association. That these gentlemen were there solely ia the interests of the Indian's and that the advice they would give would be of the best. Mr. Gunderson suggested that I go with the Indians and pay their necessary expenses. This was agreeable to the Indians and they selected Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, and Harry Mott, and Charles Dickens as interpreter. Inspector Linnen had a conference with Mr. Gunderson, the Indian delegates, and myself the evening of February 22. It was explained to the Indians that the proposal of Mr. Gunderson to allot them 50 acres on the Camp McDowell Reservation and 5 acres on the Salt River Reservation with assured water was much better for the Indians than they could expect to get if House bill 31920 should become a law. Mr. Sniffen also assured them that the proposal was an exceptionally good one. The delegates were pleased with the plan of allotment for Camp McDowell Reservation, ' but, speaking for themselves personally, would not take the 5 acres on the Salt River Reservation. They agreed, however, not to oppose any of the Indians who might want the additional 5 acres, and to return to McDowell and explain to the tribe. Supervisor Gunderson has already reported this meeting and his recommendations in detail to your office. Special Allotting Agent Roblin made selections for 20 McDowell people of 5-acre tracts at Salt River to-day. This makes 42 selections that have aheady been made. Very respectfully, Charles E. Ooe, Superintendent. The Chairman. What is the date of that ? Mr. Latimer. That is a letter dated February 25, 1911, and attached to it is a bill introduced by Mr. Graham, of Illinois, on January 23, 1911, No. 31920. In that connection, Mr. Valentine, do you recognize, or not, as Indian Commissioner, the fact that Congress is the all-governing power over these Indian reservations ? Mr. Valentine. Yes; I should say that, under the Constitution, Congress was the main governing power. Mr. Latimer. They are the fountaiahead, are they not ? iir. Valentine. They are the fountainhead, except in so far as the President may have certain executive functions. Mr. Latimer. Also letter from the Indian Commissioner's Office dated March 16, 1911, addressed to Mr. Charles E. Coe, signed C. F. Hauke, second assistant commissioner, reading as follows: March 16, 1911. Mr, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sir: The office is in receipt of your two letters of February 25, 1911, regarding allotments to Indians on the Salt River Reservation. It is gratifying to see by your letter that 20 additional Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation have selected irrigable lands wanted in allotment on the Salt River Reservation, making a total of 42 who have agreed to remove to and accept allot- ments on the latter reservation. For your information it may be said that the office has decided not to attempt to allot any of the lands within the Camp McDowell Reservation at this time. That is, that if these Indians agree to remove to the Salt River Reservation or accept allot- ments on the Salt River Reservation they will be permitted to use in common the lands on the Camp McDowell Reservation, but that allotments of lands in severalty will not be made at this time. Respectfully, C. T. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner . The Chairman. Before we adjourn I would like to say that we have had quite a lengthy talk about this decision and how much of it should go into the record. Mr. Ijatimer read a few paragraphs from it into 234 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPABTMENT. the record already, and Mr. Valentine was to look it over and pick oxi-t any additional paragraphs he thought should go into the record. If that is satisfactory to everybody, we thought it the most convenieiit and economical way to dispose of it, but we stated then, and I repeat, that if anyone insists on it, it will all have to go in. Mr. Catlin. Mr. Valentine will give the paragraphs that you want. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; whenever Mr. Graham submits to me tvhat he thinks is sufficient. If there is anything further, I will pre- sent it to him. The Chairman. I have not read it carefully of late, and before pass- ing upon it in that way I would want to re-read it. Mr. Valentiae has just req^uested of me that page 15, which includes the matter now under discussion, go into the record. Mr. George. The whole page ? The Chairman. Make a note, Mr. Reporter, that the opinion in the case of Hurley, plaintiff, against Abbott and 4,800 others. United States of America as intervener. No. 4564, be published in full in the proceedings, not including the table; that is, publish from page 1 to page 22, inclusive. That is to be published as an exhibit. (The papers referred to are as follows:) Department of the Intebior, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Saeaton, Ariz. , June 15, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have the honor to state that the water commissioner. Salt River Valley, Ariz. , will be paid $3,000 a year; that the 3,000 acres of land signed up imder the Tonto Reservoir for the Indians on the north side of Salt River, and whose proportion of the salary of water commissioner will equal $45 per year, will be paid by the United Slates Reclamation Service, which is operating the Arizona Canal from which the Indians' land is watered. The 900 acres of land signed up under the Tonto Reservoir for the Indians of the Lehi portion of the Salt River Reservation, will have to pay at the rate of IJ cents pel acre per annum for the months of May and June, 1910, or $2.25, unless the Utah Canal from which they receive their water, will be acquired and operated by the United States Reclamation Service, in which case the charge will be paid by the Reclamation Service, and charged against the total reclamation cost. Authority No. 23481, approved April 5, 1910, was reported as "saved" ' in report of authorities for the month of May, 1910. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. Department of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Authority is hereby granted for you to expend, during the fiscal year 1910, the sum of $456 from the appropriation "Imgation Indian reservations, $456," for the following: Object. Unit price. Amount. Payment to water commissioner. Salt Hiver Valley, Ariz., from Apr. 1, 1910, to June 30, 1910, inclusive, at the rate of $152 per month (see decision and decree, p. 18) — $152.00 $456.00 Total 466.00 To supei-intendent Pima Indian School, Saeaton, Ariz. (Stamped "Apr. 5, 1910.") 1 Was reported as expended. Correction made November 15, 1910.— N. W. EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTBRIOK DEPARTMENT. 235 [Telegram.] Apeil 18, 1910. Indian School, Casa Grande, Ariz.: Authority sent you April 5, $456 in excess of proper amount. Confer with Supervise ing Engineer Hill and pay only proper proportion water commissioner's salary. Advise office. C. F. Hauke, Chief Clerk. Depaktment of the Interioh, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Sacaton, Ariz., March 15, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have the honor to transmit herewith a copy of decision and decree,' filed March 1, 1910, relating to the irrigating water of the Pima and Maricopa Indians of the Salt River Reservation. (See pp. 8-18, 19, 24, 48, 58, and 69.) On page 18 the court orders that the water commissioner be paid $152 per month by the United States from and including A.pril 1, 1910, and provision should be made for the regular payment thereof from funds applicable. Also the Pima and Maricopa Indians at Lehi, on sections 35 and 36, T. 2 N., R. 5 E., are assessed one-tenth of the expenses of operating the Utah Canal; but they have worked out the amount of their assessment in the past and should do so in the future. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. In the District Court of the Third Judicial District of the Temtory of Arizona, in and for the county of Maricopa. Patrick T. Hurley, plaintiff. The United States of America, intervener,] ^ Charles F. Abbott and Four Thousand Eight Hundred Others, defendants. J ^^^cree. This cause came on regularly to be heard upon the complaint of the plaintiff, the petition in intervention and cross complaint of the United States of America, and upon the pleas and answers of various defendants herein, and upon the default of certain defendants herein appearing and answering; the plaintiff appearing herein by Messrs. Joseph H. Kibbey, and Roy S. Goodrich, his attorneys, the United States of America by Mr. J. L. B. Alexander, United States attorney for the Territory of Arizona, and various defendants by Messrs. Anderson & Anderson, C. F. Ainsworth, Thomaa Armstrong, jr., A. C. Baker, Walter Bennett, Alexander Buck, Lysander Cassidy, Chalmers & Wilkinson, Christy & Lewis, E. S. Clark, Frank Fox, J. W. Crenshaw, J. K. Doohttle, E. B. Goodwin, P. H. Hayes, J. M. Jamison, W. J. Kings- bury, J. H. Langston, A. D. Leyhe, Reese M. Ling, Frank H. Lyman, B. E. Marks, O'Neill & McKean, J. g. Phillips, Thomas J. Prescott, C. H. Rutherford, G. W. Sil- verton, and Charles Woolf, their attorneys, and the court having heard the evidence and the proofs, and having duly considered the same and being fully advised in the premises, and having filed its decision in writing herein, with accompanying tables. It is ordered, adjudged, and decreed that the various parties hereto, and their suc- cessors in interest, be, and they hereby are, entitled to divert or to have diverted from the water flowing in the Salt River to and upon the land owned or possessed by them as their interest may appear, for beneficial use upon such land, such amount of water as may be necessary and proper for the economical and successful irrigation and culti- vation of such land, in area and extent, and in duration, and according to the relative rights in priority of appropriation, and in the amount, manner, and form as shown, set forth and determined in the following decision herein of this date, and the tables annexed thereto, which decision and accompanying tables are hereby made a part of, and are to be considered as incorporated in, this decree, and to which reference is hereby made for exact and particular description and provision. And it is further ordered, adjudged, and decreed that Frank P. Trott be, and he hereby is, appointed commissioner of this court to execute and carry out the provi- sions of the decision and decree herein, with the powers and duties as in said decision ^ Case of Patrick T. Hurley, plaintiff, United States of America, intervener, v. Charles F. Al3bott and 4,800 others. (Case No. 4564, in the district court of the third judicial district of the Territory of Arizona, in and for the county of Maricopa. Decision filed Mar. 1, 1910.) 236 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. more fully set forth, subject at all times to the control and Bupervision of the court; and the said commissioner shall be paid as compensation for his services by the owners of the land, through the canal agencies serving them, the amount and in the manner as in said decision specified. The plaintiff and the United States of America, intervenor, shall each recover against the defendants their costs to be taxed. The court retains jurisdiction of the cause and of the issues embraced herein, and, upon good cause shown, may from time to time modify, enlarge, or abrogate any por- tion or feature of this decree, or of the decision and tables filed herewith as a part hereof, by order or supplemental judgment or decree to be entered at the foot hereof. This decree and the provisions of the decision herein shall become effective on and after April 1, A. D. 1910. Dated Phojnix, March 1, 1910. Edward Kent, Judge. In the District Court of the Third Judicial District of the Territory of Arizona, in and for the county of Maricopa. Patrick T. Hurley, plaintiff, The United States of America, intervenor, I V. [ Decision. Charles F. Abbott and Four Thousand Eight Hundred Others, defendants. J t, The Salt River Valley, so called, is an alluvial plain, nearly level, lying in the central portion of the Territory of Arizona, the soil of which, when supplied with sufficient water, is extremely fertile. Its approximate length from east to west as far as the Agua Fria River is 35 miles; its average width 15 miles. The climate is arid, with but a slight rainfall, and artificial application of water to the land is necessary in order for the successful growth of agricultural products. Entering the valley from the northeast is the Salt River, a nonnavigable stream. Into the Salt River and just before its entrance into the valley flows the Verde River; the Salt River, after such conflux, empties into the Gila River in the southwestern part of the valley. In the valley are located the city of Phoenix, and the towns of Tempe, Mesa, Lehi, Scottsdale, Peoria, Glendale, and Alhambra; and these places and the farming country lying east of the Agua Fria River tributary to them are irrigated by water diverted from the Salt River by means of canals. The river is subject to very great variations in the amount of water flowing in it; from time to time there is a large volume of water in the river, more than ade- quate for the irrigation of all the land hitherto attempted to be cultivated; for the greater part of the year the supply is inadequate for such cultivation. The land shows evidence of cultivation in prehistoric times by irrigation from the same source as at present. Cultivation in recent times began about the year 1869. From the cultivation of a few hundred acres in 1869, the area of such cultivation in the valley has increased until at the present time there are approximately 151,000 acres attempted to be cultivated from water diverted from the Salt River at various pointB of diversion on the river at or above the ' ' Joint Head " hereinafter described . Although all the water flowing into the Salt River is, in the lower stages of the water in the river, diverted by canals which have their heads at such points in the river, nevertheless additional land lying to the we.itward, not covered by the cRtches aforesaid, is irri- gated by means of ditches which have their heads in the river below the Joint Head. This is made possible by the peculiar conditions which obtain in the river whereby, though dry above, water rises in the channel of the river below, forming a new source of supply independejit of that diverted above. Such additional land and the relative rights of such land, or the owners thereof, to water for irrigation purposes are not included within the issues of this suit. The canals serving the land embraced in this suit lying to the north of the river are the Salt River Valley Canal, the Maricopa, the Grand, and the Arizona; those serving land embraced in this suit lying to the south of the river are the Tempe, the Broadway, the San Francisco, the Utah, the Mesa, the Highland, and the Consolidated. _ A general map, showing the river, the land in question, and the means of diversion thereto of the water supply, is attached hereto, marked "Map No. 1." Of the canals on the north side, the canal now known as the Salt River Valley Canal is the oldest of those now in service ; it was commenced in the year 1867 and was origi- nally known as the Swilling ditch. Its head was at a point about 5 miles east of the present site of the city of Phoenix. The slope of the land on the north side of the river being generally to the southwest, this canal, in general, serves the land lying to the south and west of its course — approximately 19,000 acres. _N XiJiXLlUJii UJ^jiTii-n-XlVX JliN X . Some time after the construction of the original Swilling ditch, it was extended and a branch was taken from it at a point about 2 mUea below its divergence from the river, and constructed to the north and west, and became known as the Maricopa Canal, serving, in general, land lying between it and the Salt River Valley Canal, approximately 18,000 acres; the head of this canal in the river is the same as that of the Salt River Valley Canal, and is known as the "Joint Head." In 1878 construction was begun of the Grand Canal, which had its head on the river at a point about 3 miles above the joint head, serving land lying between it and the Salt River Valley Canal, approximately 17,000 acres. After the great flood of the year 1891 the head of the Grand Canal was discontinued and the Grand Canal thereafter received its water from the Arizona Canal by means of a crosscut therefrom. In 1883 the construction of the Arizona Canal was begun. The head of this canal was above that of all the other canals in the valley at a point some 28 miles east of the city of Phoenix. The Arizona Canal is the most northerly of all the canals and serves land lying between it and the Maricopa canal, and also some land on the north side of the river east of the Grand, Maricopa, and Salt River Valley Canals, in all approximately 38,000 acres. Water is also diverted from the river by means of the Arizona Canal and conveyed through the crosscut to the Maricopa and Salt River Valley Canals, thus adding to the supply of the two latter canals over and above that taken by them from the river at the joint head. On the south side of the river the first canal constructed was the Tempe Irrigating Canal, begun in the year 1870, its head being at a point on the south side of the river about 9 miles above the joint head. This canal serves the land lying under it and its various branches, approximately 24,400 acres. A small ditch called the Broadway was taken out about 1870 with its head originally about 4 miles west of the joint head. The head, however, was abandoned a;bout 12 years ago, and since then the land for which the canal was originally built, approximately 450 acres, has been served partly by an extension of the original Broad- way Ditch, receiving a part of the water through the Tempe Canal (which water for more than the year last past, however, has been carried by the San Francisco Canal), and partly through the Marmonier or French Ditch, which latter ditch has its head below the joint head. About that time a canal known as the San Francisco Canal was also constructed, with a head about a mile and one-half above the joint head, serving land under it similarly situated, approximately 4,000 acres. An independent head for this canal has long since been discontinued and it receives its water through the Tempe Canal. In 1877 the Utah Canal was constructed, with a head about 5 miles above the head of the Tempe Canal, and it, together with the extension thereof afterwards built, serves land under it, approximately 11,200 acres. In 1878 the construction of the Mesa Canal was begun, which had a head in the river about 2 J miles above the head of the Utah Canal, and serves land under it, approxi- mately 16,400 acres. In 1888 the construction of the Highland Canal was begun, with a head about 3 miles above the head of the Mesa Canal, and it serves land lying under it similarly situated, approximately 425 acres. In 1891 the construction of the consolidated canal was begun, with a head about 3 miles above the head of the Utah. It serves land under it approximately 2,300 acres. In the year 1874 C. T. Hayden, a shareholder in the Tempe Canal Co., erected a flour mill at Tempe on the banks of the Tempe Canal, and by an arrangement with the other shareholders of the Tempe Canal Co., nad supplied to him through that canal water sufficient to operate his mill, being a maximum amount of water equal to a flow of 1,100 miner's inches. Since that date this mill has been continuously so served. In the year 1887 a suit was begun in this court entitled M. Wormser and others against the Salt River Valley Canal Co. and others. It was a suit instituted for the purposB of enjoining certain parties to it, owners of the canal systems, from the diversion of the water from the Salt River in derogation of the rights of the plaintiffs. The purpose of such suit and the reasons for it, historically applicable to this present suit, are set forth in the following extract from the opinion of Judge Kibbey rendered therein in the year 1892: "The earlier efforts of the settlers under these older ditches toward cultivation was confined to the production of hay and grain, and a few garden vegetables, the cultiva- tion of which was confined to that period of the year when the water in the river was very abundant. As the settlement became older and its population increased, a more extended cultivation began to be undertaken. Instead of confining themselves to hay and grain, as above mentioned, the ranchers gradually began the planting and cultivation of alfalfa, fruits, and vines, which required water during the entire year. 238 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPAETMENT. TJnder the conditions as they originally existed, and as is usual in such cases/there ■were many usurpations and concessions of rights to the diversion of water, unnoticed at the time, or, if noticed, tacitly and without objection acquiesced in because of the then abundance of water. As the popula,tion increased and with it the more extended form of cultivation, a deficiency in water began to be noticed. While the river dinSlig the months in which hay and grain and the ordinary agricultural crops are being grown had in it a vast volume of water, this volume diminished with the advance of the season from thousands of cubic feet per second to about, at a minimum of, 300 cubic feet per second, and as both the increase of population and the different prod- ucts to which the land was cultivated increased, the demand for water in the summer months, when the supply is the least, aggravated by an unnecessary and very consider- able waste of water, exceeded the supply. This deficiency of supply made at once the question of priority of right to appropriate water important, and that question is the subject matter of this suit." In that case Judge Kibbey, after setting forth at length the facts in the case, in an exhaustive and able opinion covering the questions of law that arose therein, held that, as the parties to the suit, as was disclosed by their pleadings, had proceeded on the theory that an association of individuals or a corporation may become entitled to divert from a natural water course a definite quantity of water, and that this right depended, not on the fact that the constituent members of an association or corpora- tion had for the water a beneficial use, and applied it to that use, but that the right and title to divert depended on the amount that they had been actually accustomed to divert, there was an omission to make that particular proof of the rights of individual appropriators upon which the right of diversion necessarily depended; and that under the pleadings and evidence in the case no attempt could be made to define the rights of individual appropriators, since an attempt to define in such suit the rights of indi- vidual irrigators would not operate as an adjudication thereof. The findings of tact in the case were therefore confined to a determination of the amount of land from time 'to time brought under cultivation and supplied by the various canals and ditches, and a table was prepared showing the number of quarter sections of land brought into cultivation under the various canals from time to time from the year 1868 to and including the year 1889, the determinations in the case being expressly confined to the rights of the several owners of the canals and not to a determination of the rights •of individual customers of such canal companies. The court decreed that the amount of water which the various canal companies were entitled in each year to divert from the Salt River by means of their several canals and dams was the amounts necessary under proper methods of irrigation to cultivate and irrigate the number of quarter sections set forth in such table, but did not find the amount of water actually necessary for such cultivation . Whatever may have been the legal effect of the decree entered in the Wormser suit, 'there was no effective attempt to enforce it or to distribute water according to its terms. Even prior to its rendition an agreement was entered into by the various canal companies whereby the parcels of land as found by such decree to be entitled to water lying under the Tempe and San Francisco Canals should receive water for their irri- gation to be diverted from the river by the Tempe Canal according to the dates of the reclamation thereof, and in the amount of 64 miner's inches to the quarter section measured at the head of the canal. The balance of the normal flow of water in the river at its various stages was divided among the various canal companies in accord- ance with the terms uf the agreement entered into by them independent of the vari- ous dates of reclamation of the land lying under the canals as such dates were found in the Wormser decree. Since such agreement the water in the river at its various stages up to 60,000 miner's inches has been distributed theoretically under the pro- visions of this decree, but practically and actually under the agreement entered into by the canal companies as just stated. To this agreement and to this distribution of the water protest has been made from time to time since the rendition of the Wormser decree, by individual landowneB not content with the action of the canal company serving them with water in that regard, and various suits have been instituted from time to time in this court to test the validity of such distribution of the water under such arrangement, none of which suits have ever come to final judgment, and one of which, at least, is still pending awaiting the determination of this proceeding. In the year 1903 the United States Government, acting by the authority of Congress under what is known as the reclamation act, commenced the construction of an impounding dam, known as the Roosevelt Dam, upon the Salt River just below the conflux of 'Tonto Creek with the Salt River, at a point about 75 miles east ofthe city of Phoenix, for the purpose of storing the waters of the Salt River in a reservoir at that point. This dam, now rapidly approaching its completion, will be approximately 1 i Ji JilU±l JJlljirAXt J. iVlJilN i . 280 feet in height above bedrock, will create a reservoir lake of some 25 miles in length and an average of more than 1 mile in width, and will impound approximately 1,300,000 acre-feet of water. The height of the dam is already sufficient to impound at present a large body of water, and its completion is expected within the next few months. The object of the dam and the purj)08e of the Government in its erection is to store in the reservoir the surplus water in the Salt River over and above the amount of the normal flow of the river appropriated and Used. The Government also finished the construction in the year 1908 of a permanent diversion dam across the Salt River known as the Granite Reef Dam, at a point about 25 miles east of Phoenix, 3 miles below the conflux of the Verde River, from which dam water is now being diverted into the Arizona Canal for the use of the land lying on the north side of the river, and which now diverts a large portion and which is capable of diverting all of the water necessary for the land on the south side of the river. An association of landowners known as the Salt River Valley Water Users' Asso- ciation was formed, comprising nearly all the owners of the land Ijring on the north side of the river embraced in this suit, capable of irrigation, and the owners of a majority of all the land lying on the south side of the river. The owners of a large majority of the land lying under the Tempe and San Francisco canals, however, have not joined the association. By contracts between the Government and the members of the water users' association, the latter will be entitled to receive for their land their proportionate share of the surplus water that may be stored by the Government in its impounding reservoir. Those not in the association will have no contractual rights with the Government with respect to the water thus impounded. In the year 1905 this suit was instituted by the plaintiff, P. T. Hurley, he claiming • to be an early appropriator of water, and asking to have his title quieted to the use of an amount of water sufficient to cultivate the land owned by him. He made as de- fendants in the suit a large number of other individual landowners in the valley. After the commencement of the suit, the United States, having acquired the posses- sion and ownership of the canals on the north side of the river, and being interested in its capacity as guardian of a number of Indian settlers on the reservation situated in the valley, by leave of court first obtained, intervened as a party in the suit and filed its answer and cross complaint, aid sought and obtained process to make party defend- ants to its cross complaint all landowners in the district in the valley irrigated by the canals above mentioned, and prayed for a judgment establishing the rights of each individual defendant and each parcel of land to the water in the river, and the estab- lishment of the various dates of appropriation of water by each individual landowner. These various individual landowners, some 4,800 in all, were served with process in the suit, and evidence has been taken before the court respecting the duty of water and the dates of reclamation of the various parcels of land in the irrigable district in the valley in question from the year 1869 to and including the year 1909, the testi- mony being taken intermittently during a period of two and ohe-half years. The case is now before the court for adjudication. The purpose of this suit is to obtain a judicial determination and definition of the Tights of the various parcels of land and the owners thereof under the various canals above mentioned in and to the use of the water flowing in the Salt and Verde Rivers. For a complete and effective adjudication of such rights it is necessary not only to determine the date of appropriation of the water to each parcel of land, but also the amount of the water appropriated and the relative right of each parcel to the other. The doctrine of riparian rights does not obtain in Arizona. The right of the owner of land to divert from a natural nonnavigable stream the flow of the water therein and to apply the same to beneficial use upon such land, is and always has been recognized in this Territory. Such diversion and use is termed an appropriation of water. Whatever may be the steps necessary to take to initiate such a right or to evidence the intent to initiate it, the appropriation itself only becomes complete and vested when the water is actually diverted from the stream and placed to a beneficial use upon the land. The right given by such an appropriation is strictly not a right to the water itself, but a right to the use of the water. Its application to a beneficial use upon the land is as necessary in order to complete the right as is the diversion thereof from the stream. An appropriation of water, therefore, for the purpose of the irrigation of a par- cel of land may not be established and completed by means merely of a declaration of intention or by the posting of notices of appropriation, nor may it be made by a canal owner or by a canal company as such alone, independent of its ownership of the land; but as application to a beneficial use upon the land is necessary to complete the appropriation, it follows that such appropriator must be an owner of land or have a possessory right thereto. Furthermore, since the land to which the water is to be applied is a necessary integral part of the appropriation and a factor by which the -amount of the water appropriated for use is measured, it follows that when the water is no longer applied to the land for which it was diverted, the right of appropriation of 240 EXPENDITUEES i: Buch water for such land ceasea. The right of appropriation further depends upon a supply of water that is unappropriated. It follows, therefore, that the first in time of appropriation is the first in right to appropriate, since water previously appropriated by another is no longer available for a subsequent appropriator. The extent of the appropriation is limited by the beneficial use to which the water can be applied. The actual amount of water that may be appropriated for irrigation, therefore, is the amount that the landowner can and does actually use in the necessary and economical irrigation of his land for cultivation. This much and no more may he have; and this much he may only have when there is sufficient water available to supply first those prior in date of appropriation. The fundamental principle in the doctrine of appropriation of the normal flow of water in a stream for irrigation is its application by the landowner to the land for a beneficial use. The right to appropriate is a right that belongs to the landowner, but the water appropriated is appropriated for the land, and when bo appropriated its use belongs to the land and not to the appropriator. The method of diversion from the river and the means of carriage of the water to the land is immaterial in the establishment or maintenance of the right; it may be done by the individual appropriator or by an association of individual appropriators, or by a canal company, or by any person or corporation; and the means of carriage or the point of diversion from the river may be changed from time to time to suit altered conditions without impairing the right of appropriation already made, provided prior rights of others are not interfered with. There being in this Territory no private property in water, but water being a public property subject to the uses before defined, in so diverting and carrying the water such person, association, or corporation acts merely as the ageiit of the appropriator and acquires no right of appropriation to the water itself, and no rights as against the appropriation made to the land, except a right to proper compen- sation for such diversion and carriage. Applying these general principles to the case in hand, it follows that the dates of the reclamation of the land and its first cultivation by the means of water diverted to the land by the land owner, must determine the date of the appropriation in each instance; that each appropriator in turn and prior to the one next succeeding him is entitled to have diverted and applied on his land a quantity of water sufiicient for the economical cultivation thereof and no more, until the supply available shall have been exhausted, provided the use of such water on his land shall have been reasonably continuous. The various dates of the application of water to the land, the amoimt of water necessary for the economical cultivation thereof, the duration of such cultivation, and the supply of water available, are therefore interstitial facts affecting all questions arising in the case. A great amount of testimony has been taken as to the dates of application of water to the various subdivisions of land lying under the canals, and the results obtained have been checked in such ways as were possible. The results, showing the years in which each piece of land was brought into cultivation, have been tabulated, and it is believed are as accurate as is practicably possible in a history which covers so great a period of time and so great an acreage. In each instance where a land owner has brought into cultivation in a given year a portion only of a section or subdivision of a section of land owned by him, but with the intention of speedily reclaiming the balance, and he or his successors in interest subsequently and within a reasonable time have brought the balance of such land into cultivation by irrigation, and such cultivation has been kept up, I have, under the doctrine of relation, fixed as the date of the appropriation for the whole tract the date of the first cultivation of the patt. Testimony has also in each instance been given as to the duration of cultivation. While in the main correct and accurate, it is my belief that in a number of instances the facts as to the duration and extent of the cultivation of the land have been exag- gerated. So far as possible, the testimony given has been compared with other reliable data, and in a few of such instances the testimony given has been disregarded as undoubted error. The amount of water flowing in the river varies greatly in each month in the year, in each year, and in a given month in each year. No accurate or probable estimate of the amount of water that will be available either by the month or by the year can be predicted. A table compiled from the records that have been kept by the water commissioner for the past 14 years, showing the monthly average and the annual precipitation of rain and the daily average amount of water by months and by years that has been received by the canals from the river, is hereby made a part of this decision and filed herewith, and designated as Table No. 1.' By the "normal flow of the river," as that expression is used in this decision, is meant the flow of water in the river at its varying stages available for appropriation. ' Not printed. .''.^^MamMm, ""SSPINDITTTBES IN THE INTERIOB DEPABTMENT. 241 The maximum normal flow is the total amount to be diverted from the river for the cultivation of all the parcels of land to which water has been appropriated. By "flood water " is meant water flowing in the river over and above the maximum normal flow. By "surplus water" is meant the flow of the river, both normal and flood, not needed or used. By "stored water" is meant the water impounded in the Roosevelt Ee3ervoir. The actual maximum normal flow is the total amount to which the land is entitled, as shown by the table hereinafter referred to, plus the estimated loss in carriage, and amounts in all to approximately 58,000 miners' inches. The total practicable carry- ing capacity of all the various canals is, roughly, 87,000 miners' inches. The prac- tical carrying capacity of the Tempo Canal, through which is diverted the water supplying the parcels of land generally not in the Water Users' Association, and there- fore not to be entitled by contractual relations with the Government to the benefits of the stored water, is, roughly, 16,000 miners' inches. The amount of water necessary for proper and economical irrigation and cultivation of a given amount of land is perhaps the most difficult of satisfactory solution of all the numerous questions arising in the case. The views expressed by the various wit- nesses are widely divergent. Theoretically for many years past, under the agreement as to diversion, the land entitled to water under the Tempo and San Francisco Canals has been supplied therewith upon a basis of 64 miners' inches constant flow to each quarter section, measured at the head of the Tempo Canal. In reality the land has not had any such fixed quantity nor its equivalent. At times it has had more, at times less. For the greater part of the time more land in the valley has been attempted to be cultivated than the water available would supply. Under the distributing agree- ment before referred to, land older in cultivation and prior in right shared with later land the supply of water available during the low stages of the river, and each had diverted for large portions of maay years less than the equivalent of the 64 miners' inches. No record extending over any appreciable period of time has ever been kept as to the effect of a given amount of water on a given amount of land, nor has the amount of water required for a given amount of land been determined by finy series of experi- ments with any constant or varying quantity of water. The character of the soil differs in different parts of the valley, some land requiring more water by reason of its character than other land of a different soil. These differences in soil are not in la,nd lying in defined boundaries and thus perhaps susceptible of differentiation, but are found all over the valley in such position and placement as to make it impracticable to segregate them. The amount of water necessary successfully and economically to cultivate a given product, such as alfalfa, is greater than that necessary for another, such as grain; and so through a long list of various products. These products are likewise scattered throughout the valley and are not embraced each within its own separate confines. The duty of water, by which expression I mean the amount of water neces- sary for the successful and economical cultivation of the land, in reality, therefore, differs with the different crops and with the different soils to be found in the valley under the conditions as they exist. But one standard, however, can be taken, since the variations as to crops and soil can not practically be followed by a varying standard as to the duty of water dependent upon such variations of crop and soil; nor can the matter of the amount required be left to the judgment and demand of the individual land owner dependent upon the crop he may plant. To avoid confusion and to pro- mote a certainty of division and distribution of the water, the standard to be taken must be determined by the court, and must be such as will apply to all land and all crops, and which, while it will permit by economical use of sufficient water for the cultivation of the land in great part at least to the crop requiring the moat water, will still be not too much for the land owner who intends to cultivate a portion of his land to the crop requiring a less amount of water. Such a standard, while perhaps not permitting of a precise conformity with existing conditions, can for the present at least experimentally be tried, and hereafter changed as it may be found to be inade- qua,te or too great. I believe that 48 miners' inches constant flow to the quarter sec- tion of land, measured and delivered at the land, is sufficient under ordinary condi- tions for the proper, economical, and successful irrigation of the average product as grown in the district. I therefore fix upon and determine such to be the duty of water for the purposes of this case, subject, however, to an increase or decrease of such standard upon application to the court in this suit hereafter as conditions may require and develop after due trial of such amount as such standard. When practicable, measurement of the water to be delivered should be made at the entrance of the lateral to each quarter section. When such measurement can not be so made, and until so made, the measurement shall be made at or near the point of diversion of the water from the river, except as hereinafter provided. When the water is not measured at the land, there must be added to the 48 miners' inches con- stant flow found to be the amount necessary for the cultivation of a quarter section of 98240— No. 6—11 6 242 EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEKIUK UKJb-AltxmiSiN x , land, an amount necessary to cover the loss from evaporation and seepage from the point of diversion from the river to the land. Like the duty of water, this estimated loss by evaporation and seepage has not been determined in this valley by any series of experiments or otherwise. In fixing upon an amount to be added to supply such loss by evaporation and seepage, I am guided by the testimony as to the use of water in the valley in the past, by expert testimony, and by testimony as to experime|it^ made elsewhere. Taking into consideration the average flow in the canal, the differ- ent seasons of the year, the wasteful ordinary open-earth channel now in use, the extent of the area exposed to evaporation and the greater loss by seepage in the laterals, and the fact that the loss also applies to the water to be added, it is believed that 1 per cent added for each mile of carriage- from the point of diversion from the river at the head of the canal to the termination of such canal in its main course, will approxi- mately supply the loss by evaporation and seepage in the volume of the water so delivered for general distribution. Until the further order of the court, and until such amount which is hereby fixed upon shall be found to be inadequate or too great to the water to be diverted to each canal for use upon the land under it entitled thereto when measured at the head of the canal, there shall be added for loss by evaporation and seepage 1 per cent of the amount of water diverted for each mile of such canal length in its main course. The main course of a canal as here used is defined to be its course from its head to the point where the canal ceases to be a main canal and becomes in effect a distributing lateral. The water for the land on the north side of the river is supplied through the Arizona Canal and the joint head, and the land so supplied forms one system. The length of the Arizona Canal in its main course is 36 miles, and this is also approximately the length in main course of the canals of the Grand, the Maricopa, and the Salt, measured from the head of the Arizona Canal. To ascertain the amount of water to be delivered for this system, therefore, when measured at the head of the Arizona Canal, there shall be added 1 per cent of such amount for each mile of such length of canal, to wit, 36 per cent. The length of the Maricopa and Salt River Valley Canals from the joint head to the end of their main cooi'se is 6 miles. For water diverted at the joint head there shall be added 1 per cent for each mile of such caiTiage, to wit, 6 per cent. On the south side of the river the land lying under the various canals is served by the canals independent of each other. The land, therefore, does not form one general system, but there are several systems, each under separate canals. The Utah, the Mesa, the Consolidated, and the Highland Canals no longer maintain independent beads. The water for these canals is diverted from the river at the Granite Reef Dam. The water for these canals, to which the land lying under them is entitled, is to be measured at the Granite Reef Dam until a system of measuring at the land is adopted. The amount to be added to the water diverted and measured to these canals for loss is therefore to be determined by the distance from the Granite Reef Dam to the end of the main canal of each of these systems. This distance is found to be for these canals as follows: The Utah, 15 miles; amount to be added, 15 per cent. The Mesa, 14 miles; amount to be added, 14 per cent. The Consolidated, 21 miles; amount to be added, 21 per cent. The Highland, 7 miles; amount to be added, 7 per cent. The Tempo Canal maintains an independent head and diverts a portion of the water it carries through such head. The water so diverted is to be measured uidef present conditions at the present place of ineasurement, to wit, a point about 300 yards below its present head gates. To the water so diverted and nleasured the amount to be added for loss in subsequent carriage is to be determined by the distance frotn s\ich place of measurement to the end of the main canal. This distance is hereby fixed upon as 11 miles, and the amount is therefore 11 per cent. A portion of the Water for the Tempo Canal, by a determination of court heretofore had, has been diverted in the past at the consolidated head (and recently at the Granite Reef Dam) and carried to the Tempe Canal through the Tempo crosscut from the Consolidated Canal. So long as this method of diversion and carriage is maintaihed the portion of the water for the Tempe Canal so diverted and carried shall be measui-ed in Such crosscut at the place of measurement heretofore ftiaintained, to wit, a point about one- third mile above its junction with the Tempe Canal. The amount to be added to such water for loss in subsequent carriage is to be determined by the distance from auch measuring station to the end of the main canal. This distance is hereby fixed upon as 11 miles, and the amount is therefore 11 per cent. The Broadway and San Francisco Canals receive their water from the Tempe Canal. The amount of water these canals are entitled to receive for the land lying unde* them is to be measured at the point of delivery to the San Francisco Canal just below the Hayden mill. The amount to be added for loss to such water in subsequent carriage is to be determined by the distance from such point of measurement to the EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMifiNT. 243 end of each of their main canals, respectively. Such distance is found to be, for the San Francisco Canal, 8 miles; for the Broadway Canal, 10 miles, and the amount is therefore 8 per cent and IP per cent, reapecitvely. One of the essentials to thp establishment of a continuing right to the use of water is a reasonably constant use. The evidence in the case shows that with respect tp a large bq^y of the land in question cultivation by irrigation has been continupus year by yestr'from the various dates of the first reclamatioij of the several parcels dpwn either fo the present time or to a time sufficiently near tP the present time as will perinit'of a dete^rjriination with reasonable certainty as to the intention oi the land- owner with respect to a continuing cultivation. In rnany otlier instances the evi: dence diows that ttough such cultivation may not have been carried on in each and every year the cultivation has been reasonably constant to such time, and there has been no intent to discontinue definitely such cultivation. No distinctipn as tP right pf present ijse pf the normal f^ow, except that of priority, is perceived between such various parcels of land! ' They are entitled according to their rela,tive dates pf reclama- tiqn and by years to the use pf the nqrmal flpw of the water in the river to the extent necessary for their ecpnpmical cultivation. They form a distinct class preferred m their rghts to the use of such water over and above the other parcels of land in the gijit. For the purposes of this, siiit they may be designated as land in class A. A deseriptipn of tiiese" parcels of land listed by years of date ef appropriation appears in tabul3,ted form in tlie tables designated 2 a,nd 3 herete attached, being tables fpr the lapfi on the nerth side'an4 sputh side, respectively; they include all land now being cultivated or upon which cultivation ^as continued tp as late a date as during the year of 1903. Where land has been cultivated in the past, but such cultivation discontinued prier tP the new date of appropriation under which it appears in th^ t^ble, the dates of such prior cultivation will be found in the table under the column entitled "Bemark^." This column also gives the last date of cultivation, ap far as the proof before the court shows, when such cultivation, though not to the year 1909, is later than the year of 1902. 'the evidence shows that with respect to a large amount of land, water in the pa?t was applied thereto aiid the land cultivated in some instances for one or two years and in other instances for a Ipngpr peried of time, in seme instances cpnstantly, in pthers intermittently, but in all such instances cultivaticn pf the Ifuid had entirely ceased for a number of years, and in every instance more than five years prior to the beginning of the taking of testimpny in this suit. A large pqrtipn of the land with i'i^ia history was first brought into qultivatipn on the nprth side of the river shertly after the completion of the Arizona Canal, and on the south side shortly after the completipn of the Highland and ConspUdated Canals; some l^nd with a similar his- tory is also fqund under the older canals. Generally speaking, the cultivation of such land was begun during times pf plenty and discpntinued during times pf scarcity pi the flpwin the river. The hppe pf a sufiicient cpntinuous supply of water was followed by thp r{ializ;ation of the fact of iiisufficient supply. A financial loss was the certain result of an attempt to cultivate with insufficient, uncertain supply of water for irriga- tion, s^tid onp.by one, the supply of water failing to equal the necessary demaniculti- vation of these parcels of land was discontinued. The failure qf these landowners to continue after such appropriation tp make a reaspnably constant diversipn and application of water so appropriated tp their land came abput, npt pf their wish tP discontinue cultivation nor because there was not at certain seaspns pf the year plenty of water available for such cultivation, but because no certainty of supply could be counted upon at times when such supply was essential. Such appropriation of w^tqr by these larntiowners as was made was, speaking bsoadly, an appropriation not of the flow of the river in its low^ stages, for such flow had already been appropriated by others, but of the flow in the higher stages of the water in the river over and above (;)ie flow necessary for the cultivation pf the land in class A, unavailable in the, past fp such landowners for practical and efficient centinued use because pf the lack of storage facilities,, b^t now shprtly, to be available by. means qf the impounding dam constructed by the Government. $uch parcels of land to, which water has hithertp been applied for the purpose of cultivation, but upon which the use of water was definitely discontinued before the year 1903 and has not been since resumed, may he' designated as land in class B and appear in the descriptive lists cf such parcels shewing the duration of cultivatipn heretp attached, marked 4 and 5, embracing the land pn t^e nprth side and sputh side, respectively. These parcels ef land in class B having (Jiacpntinued in the past the use of the water tp wnich otherwise they might now be entitled by reason of the apprppriatipn made fpr them, np new appropriatien of later date haying iteen made by a new and continued use of water upon tlie land, Ijave nq right ttat can nqw bq establislied to the normal flow of, water in the river apprpprjaied by the land in class, A. Their attempted appropriation, however, of the surplus water, discontinued because of lack hitherto of storage facilities, gives them 244 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. equitably a preferential right over the land in class C (hereinafter described) in a right of application to the Government for stored water, where the owners of such land in class B are members of the water users' association, and by reason thereof may enter into contractual relations with the Government with respect thereto. The third class of land is that which may be known as land in class C. It is such land as is situated within the irrigable district lying under the canals above mentioned, or their possible extensions, not included in classes A or B, upon which no cultivation has been had or as to which no appropriation or attempt at appropriation of the flow in the river at or above the joint head, has been made in the past. They are not entitled to the establishment of any right of appropriation in this suit. The land in these three classes may be found upon the map hereto attached, marked map No. 2, in colors as thereon designated. By agreement entered into between the United States and the water users' associa- tion, the members of the latter, whether owners of land in classes A, B, or C, are to be entitled to the benefits of the stored water in the Roosevelt Reservoir, in such extent of acreage as the project shall serve. These benefits are to be formally obtained by those entitled thereto after the completion of the dam and upon the formal opening thereafter by the Government of this reclamation project, by contractual obligations then to be entered into by the members of the water users' association with the Gov- ernment. The stored water is to be distributed to those who shall have the right thereto, proportionally according to the acreage of the land, and irrespective of any priority of irrigation or cultivation of such land. Under the decision herein the owners of land m class A and in class B, because of the cultivation in the past of their land, and the facts as found have a preferential right over the owners of land in ekes C to apply for and obtain from the Government a right to their proportionate share of the stored water needed by them. This preferential right to the owners of land in classes A and B is not a right to the water itself, nor does it give to those applying for and obtaining such right a priority in use or in extent of use to the stored water over owners of land in class C who may also apply and receive a similar right to the water. The preference given is merely and only that of a right to make application and have listed as sharers in the stored water the land in classes A and B before the owners of land in class C, whose land, if listed, will be listed subject to such prior right of application. Such priority of application, in order to be effective, must be availed of and be asserted both as to the owners of land in class A and the owners of land in class B within a reasonable time in order that certainty as to existing rights of all the land in the valley, as well to the surplus and stored as to the normal supply of water, may be speedily and definitely ascertained and determined. Such reason- able time is hereby fixed as one year from the formal opening by the United States Government of this reclamation project. Within such time all the owners of the land in classes A and B, in order to avail themselves of such prior right, must apply therefor to the United States Government or its reclamation officials in charge of this project, under such rules and regulations governing such application as shaD be pro- mulgated by such officials; and on and after such date all the parcels of land in classes A and B for which application for such stored water shall not have been made, or which for good cause shall not have had such application therefor granted, shall cease to have any such preferential right of application over and above the land in class C. Attached hereto and made a part of this decision are a number of tables, the con- tents and purposes of which are as follows : Table 6 is a table showing the acreage of land in classes A and B by townships and sections, followed by summaries thereof. Table 7 is a table showing the acreage of land in class A on the north side by town- ships and years of first cultivation under present appropriation. Table 8 is a table similar to table 7, but for the south-side land. Table 9 is a table showing the amount of the acreage of land in class A brought into cultivation year by year from 1869 to 1909, inclusive. In this table the first column shows the year of first cultivation, the second column the total acreage to such date and the increase in cultivation in that year, the third column similarly the acreage on the north side, the fourth on the south side, and the remaining columns such aae? age under each of the various canals on the south side. Table 10 is a table showing the amount of water upon the basis established as the duty of water herein to which the parcels of land in class A lying on the north side of the river, and the parcels of land in such class lying on the south side of the river, and such parcels in such class under each of the canals lying on the south side of the river, are entitled at the various stages of the river up to 45,325 miners' inches, the maximum amount necessary under such standard for the total acreage thereof. Such water in the river at its various staggs of flow will be diverted for distribution to this land according to this table, subject to such graduation and intei.polation thereof by the commissioner as may be necessary, in the varying increase of the water, to give EXPENDITTJKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 245 to the various parcels of land entitled to the increase their proportionate share thereof. When the flow in the river equals the maximum amount necessary for the irrigation of the total acreage of the land in class A, plus the loss for carriage, all such land, of course, can be supplied. When the flow in the river is less than the maximum amount, the amount available shall be distributed to the various canals for those parcels of land first entitled thereto according to their relative dates of priority by years as shown in the table. All flood and stored water shall be shared by those entitled to it, and who can avail of it, irrespective of dates of priority. The amount of water in the river available tor distribution is to be computed by taking the daily flow in the Verde River and adding thereto the amount of the daily flow in the Salt River. The daily flow in the Salt River shall not be impounded by the Government, by means of the Roosevelt Dam, in the reservoir, except when the total intake in such reservoir, including the estimated lose thereto by seepage and evaporation between such intake and the conflux with the Verde River, added to the flow of the Verde River shall exceed the amount called for in table 10, plus the amount to be added thereto for loss by evaporation and seepage in the canals, unless at the request or with the assent of the users of such water whose land is entitled thereto; and no water user entitled thereto shall be deprived against his consent of his propor- tionate share of the normal flow of the river by reason of such impounding dam. The Government, in times of flood water, shall not by impounding water in the reservoir lessen the proportionate share of such flood water of any individual landowner not a member of the water users' association, and against his consent, nor shall it lessen the proportionate share of the Tempo and San Francisco Canals, or of either of them, to such flood water available to such canals; so as to deprive such canals of such propor- tion of such flood water desired when the land lying under such canals is in need of such water or any portion thereof, and can avail of it, and when such canal company shall notify the commissioner of its desire to divert such water or any portion thereof. The various parcels of land in the valley in cultivation are entitled to share equally, according to acreage, in the use of the flood water available; the proportionate share in the flood water of the Tempo and San Francisco Canals is therefore to be measured by their relative acreage under cultivation, since the share of the land under the other canals, listed in the association, in the flood water in the Salt River can now be stored for them in the Roosevelt Reservoir. The acreage under the Tempe Canal is found to be approximately 16 per cent of the total acreage in cultivation . The acreage under the San Francisco Canal is found to be approximately 3 per cent of the total acreage in cultivation. The amount of flood water to which the Tempe and San Francisco Canals shall be entitled to receive, as above stated, is, therefore, 16 per cent and 3 per cent, respectively, of the total amount of flood water available. The oSicials of the United States Government in charge of the reclamation project, the reservoir, and the impounding and diversion dams hereinbefore mentioned, shall be at all times under the direction and control of the court with respect to the impound- ing, diversion, and distribution of the flow of the water in the river, and they shall make such reports, daily and otherwise, of existing conditions as shall reasonably be required by the commissioner and as shall show the amount of the flow into the reser- voir and in the river, and shall cause to be diverted into the various canals or other- wise such amount or proportion of the water as the commissioner shall direct. Frank P. Trott, Esq., long the efficient wat«r commissioner of this court, is hereby selected and designated as the water commissioner to execute and carry out the pro- visions of the decree herein. In the exercise Of such duty the commissioner is author- ized to enter upon the reservoir and the impounding and diversion dams constructed by the Government, and their gates and appliances, and also upon the canals herein mentioned, their dams, gates, laterals^ and other structures and appliances whenever necessary to ascertain existing conditions, or to control, supervise, or regulate the proper delivery, carriage, or distribution of the water to be diverted by the canals under the decision and decree herein, and is authorized to establish such measuring boxes, and to make such rules and regulations as may be expedient and proper to insure the delivery, carriage, and distribution of the water in accordance with the rights of the persons entitled thereto, as found by the decision and decree herein,. The managements of the various canals shall cause to be made to the commissioner, daily or otherwise as he shall direct, such reports and information as shall show the amount of water in their various canals, and shall cause such measurements of such amounts to be made at such places as the commissioner shall direct, as may be neces- sary to obtain such information, and shall make such changes in tbe measurement, carriage, and distribution of the water as the commissioner shall direct. The commis- sioner shallr^Mt from time to time to the court as directed, as to his action, and shall apply to the judge of the court for such further or specific directions as to his powers or duties whenever such directions shall be necessary or proper for the effective carry- i ing out of the provisions of the decree herein. At any time any party to this suit, 246 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DBPAHTMJSJN T, or any canal company acting as the carrier of the water distributed, may apply to the court or the judge thereof for an interpretation, modification, enlargement, or annulment of any order, direction, or action of the commissioner in the carrying out of the provisions of the decree. The commissioner shall receive for his services a salary in the sum of $3,000 per annum, to be paid monthly on the 1st of each and eyery month, on behalf of the parcels of land entitled to the regular flow of the river, by the owners of the canals, the carriers of such water to such land, ox their successors in interest, and proportionately to the acreage served, as follows: From the United States for the land on the north side of the river 0.608 thereof, to wit $152.00 From the Tempe Canal for land served by it 161 thereof, to wit. ... 40. 25 From the San Francisco Canal .027 thereof, to wit 6. 75 From the Broadway Canal 003 thereof, to wit 75 From the Utah Canal 074 thereof, to wit 18.50 From the Mesa Canal 109 thereof, to wit 27. 25 From the Highland Canal 003 thereof, to wit .75 From the Consolidated Canal 015 thereof, to wit. ... 3. 75 Total 1. 000 250. 00 The commissioner shall keep an account of the necessary expenditures made by him in the proper exercise of his duty, and shall make a report of the same to the court from time to time, and such expenditures, when allowed and approved by the court, shall be paid by the various canal companies in the same relative proportion as the salary of the commissoner is paid by them. Until the further order of the court or the judge thereof, the commissioner, in the execution of the decision and decree herein, shall not see to the actual application of the water to the various parcels of land entitled to it. He shall from day to day ascer- tain the amount of water available for distribution and the land entitled to it, accord- ing to the right thereto of the various parcels in the order of their priority as shown by Table 10, and shall order and supervise the diversion to the various canals supplyiag such parcels of land, at such points in the river and in such manner as shall most economically subserve, and as shall be expedient, the various amounts to which such parcels of land are entitled to have diverted at the various stages of the water av£!,ilable, as shown in the table. The actual application of the water to the various parcels <4 land entitled thereto shall be made by the management of the various canals in suph manner and under such reasonable rules and regulations as to rotation and delivery as they shall establish, subject always, however, to the control and regulation of the court. The commissioner shall also, when necessary, similarly supervise and dirpct the diversion and distribution of the Tempe, San Francisco, and Broadway Ciinals of the flood water to which they are entitled. All users of water and the agency by which such water is diverted and delivered for use are restricted in the diversion, carriage, and use of the lyater to methods reagpii- ably adapted to its conservation, to the end that the water made free of use to the pub' lie shall not he wasted. The methods of application of theyrater to the purpose for which it is appropriated shall be of such a character as to insure as small a consuiftB- tion of water as is reasonably consistent with the accomplishment of such purpose. Under the present method of diversion, distribution, and use of the water, there i§ il) some instances an unnecessary loss of water. Whenever and wherever practigatle, the commissioner is directed to decrease such loss by causing more economical metht^ or means of diversion, carriage, distribution, and use to be adopted. Whatever, for the economical conservation, diversion, or distribution of the Water, it shall be desirable and expedient that the water to be delivered to any canal system for distribution to the land under it entitled thereto, be carried thereto from the point of diversion in the river for such delivery by another canal, or by a number of other canals, such canal or canals, upon a written order by the commis^oper, shall catty such water in its or their canals and deliver the same to the canal entitled to receive it for distribution, subject, however, to a payment by such latter canal of such propel charges for such diversion and carriage as may be agreed upon, or as shall he deter- mined by the court or judge, but no such order upon any such canal company far such carriage shall be made by the commissiqner without the signed approval tbereoB of the judge. The Hayden mill has established a right to the use of water for power purposes only, dating from the year 1874, in a maximum amount of 1,100 miner's inches. *& method of diversion and carriage of the water shall be such as will enable the wiUi when the supply is sufficient, to make use of such water as it ia entitled to. For more than 40 years the Indians living on the reservation on the north side of the river, known as the Salt River Reservation, in T. 2 N., R. 5 E., have had delivered EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 247 to them from the river for the cultivation of their land 500 miner's inches of water, irrespective of the amount of water in the river, whether scarce or plenty, and such water has been measured and delivered to them for the last 20 years before the segre- gation and division of any water to other water users. This land has acquired a prior right over and above all others to this amount of 500 inches. The amount of land to which this water has been applied is about 2,500 acres. This amount of water is insuf- ficient properly to cultivate this amount of land. The evidence shows that for the cultivation thereof at leaist ?OOminer'sinch^s is necessary. Strictly, the additional 200 inches necessary could be decreed to these lands only after others prior in right had received the water to which they are entitled. In consideration, however, of the fact that the 500 inches to which the land at low Stages is entitled is not increased, even when at the higher stages of the river the land by its acreage and eaVly date of recla- mation Inight be entitled to more than such 500 inches, and ifi order to avoid the practical difficulty of a method of distribution which would combine a definite fixed quantity at all stages with a varying (quantity given according to priority, by consent of all parties in the suit, 700 miner's inches of water is to be given the Indians for use upon these lands at all stages in the river and prior to the distribution and diversion of the remaining watet in the river, such water to be measured at the lateral ditch or ditches to such land at their point of diversion from the Arizona canal. Certain other parcels of land in this reservation not embraced in the area above mentioned have also been put in cultivation from time to time by these Indians, but these parcels are not included in the area for which the 700 inches are appropriated, but form a part of the land in class B entitled only to the right to obtain water appertaining to the Ian* in that class and are found in the tabulated statement of such land. For manjr years last past a number of Indians living on land within the Camp Mc- Dowell Indian Reservation, situated along the Verde River abOv6 its conflux with Salt Eiver, have cultivated such land by means of wa;ter diverted from the Verde River. The extent of such cultivation is approximately 1,300 acres. The maximum amount of water to which this land is entitled is 390 miner's inches constant flow. As a matter of fact, for some years last past, because of the insufiicient means of diversion of the water from the river and for other causes, these Indians have not been able to divert from the river the amount of water necessary for the proper irrigation of the land. It is the expressed purpose, and intention of the Government withiu the next year to remove these Indians from this reservation to the Salt River Reservation and to have them settle upon land within that reservation to be irrigated by means of the propor- tionate share ia the stored water in the Roosevelt Reservoir, to which such land, as land in class B or class C may acquire the right to share. In the expectation of this change of domicile and discontinuance of use of water as at present made from the Verde River by these Indians and until the further order of the court upon application with respect thereto in this suit, if hereafter necessary, the present diversion and use of water upon the said land in the Camp McDowell Reservation by these Indians may be maintamed. Evidence has been given in the suit with respect to the cultivation of land on the south side of the river in sees. 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, and 35, T. 1 N., R. 2 E., and 30 acres in sec. 30, T. 1 N., R. 3 E. The facts show that the cultivation of these various parcels of land was either by independent ditches from the river not embraced in this suit or by waste w^ater. There is no such evidence of appropriation of water to these parcels of land as will permit of an establishment of their right to water diverted from the river in the canals that have their heads at or above the joint head, to which the issues in this suit are confined. This land', as likewise other land in the western portion of the Valley not embraced in this suit, has had, and may still be entitled to have, for its source of supply the water rising in the river below the joint head, whiOh supply is not within the issues here. These pai-cels of land, however, while not under the testimony entitled to a decree establishing their proportionate right of water under class A, or their ri^ht tp'a preferred application under class B, where they have been or shall' be listed in the water users' association and become thereby privileged to enter into contractural relations with the Government with respect to the stored water, are entitled to the rights appertaining to land in class C. Water has been applied for a number of years upOn several tracts' of land otherwise uncultivated for row's of ornaniental alid shadfe trees growing |;Here6h'. SUch an appropriation is a valid one. The evideilfce shows that under ordinary conditions of planting water sufficient for five acres of land is sufficient for one mile of such rows of trees. In determining the amount of water to be delivered to sufch trees, such standard of measurement has'beeri taken. Proof has been given in this case and the fact established of an appropriation of water to the land described as southeast quarter of sec. 23, T. 1 N., R. 3 E., by means of a subterranean flow of water, independent of the water in the river, through a ditch leading from the source of such supply in sec. 20, T. 1 N., R. 4 E. The issues in this 248 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. case being confined to the right to the use of the flow in the Salt River, no decree herein as to the right of this land to an appropriation of this independent subterranean fljw can be given. In addition to the owners of the parcels of land situated in the Salt River Valley under these canals, there have been made parties defendant to this suit owners of parcels of land lying in the Verde Valley along the Verde River and irrigated by water from it, some 50 miles above its conflux with the Salt River. The demurrerB and pleas to the jurisdiction interposed by these defendants have been overruled. No testimony, however, as to the exact extent of cultivation of the land in the Verde Valley owned by these defendants or the dates of the reclamiation of the various parcels of such land and the application of water thereto has been given. It la not possible, therefore, in this decree to establish the rights of such land owners and such land to the use of the water in the Verde River in relation to the rights (^ such water of the land in the Salt River Valley. From the general testimony m respect to the cultivar tion in the Verde Valley, it seems that such cultivation, though in actual point of time and relative date of priority, in some instances later than that of land in the Salt River Valley, is not of sufficient area and acreage at the present time to interfere seriously with the prior rights, if any, of the land in the Salt River VaUey. Such being the case, it does not seem desirable to delay the promulgation of the decree herein to await such testimony, nor at the present time under existing conditions does there seem to be a necessity for a determination of such relative priorities, if any, of rights between the two widely separated areas of land. The owners of the land in Jhe Verde Valley are party defendants to this suit, and it is conceived that if hereafter conditions shall arise by increased cultivation or otherwise which shall make it necessary for a determination of the rights of the land in the Verde Valley to the water in the Verde River as against the rights of the land to which water is by the decree herein shown to be entitled, the necessary steps for such determination can hereafter be taken, and such rights and their relation to those hereby decreed may be established by a supplemental decree hereafter to be entered in this suit. Evidence has been given of the existence of a number of pumping plants by means of which the supply of water from the river to which the land is entitled in times of scarcity is supplemented by an underground supply thus made available. In other instances water so pumped is the only means of supply. As there is no evidence that the water so pumped materially leisens the flow in the river, such rights as the land and the owners of such plants may have in the water so pumped will not be interfered with by this decree, but as the establishment of such rights, if any, is not within the isr^uea herein, no finding will be made with respect thereto. At the date of this decision the Highland Canal has been definitely discontinued aa a carrying canal, its place as such carrier having been taken by the Eastern Canal, ser\-iug the land heretofore served by the Highland. The unit of measurement of a miner's inch, as the expression is used herein, is defined to be one-fortieth part of 1 cubic foot of water flowing per second of time. The standard of a given number of miner's inches constant flow as the duty of wat«r is taken because of the familiarity therewith of the water users in the valley, and because I know of no other well-known adaptable standard of measurement. In practical and economical use of water for irrigation and cultivation, however, no parcel of land is given a constant flow, but the water for a number of parcels is given to each in rotation, thus giving a larger, a more serviceable, and a more economical head of water. The various tables and maps attached hereto have been prepared under my direction by the water commissioner, Frank P. Trott, Esq., who in many ways has been of material assistance to me in the preparation of this decision. The decision and decree in this case, from the nature thereof, is of necessity a con- tinuing one. The court retains jurisdiction of the case and of the issues embraced therein. From time to time, as conditions may require an enlargement or modifica- tion of the decision and decree, application for such modification or enlargement may be made to the court, and if granted, the same shall be entered at the foot of the decree herein. In order to afford an opportunity to make such changes and such preparation as may be necessary to carry out and conform to the provisions of this decision a.nd decree, the same shall not be effective as of this date, but the same shall be effective on and after April 1, 1910. Dated, Phoenix, March 1, 1910. Edward Kent, Judge. The Chairman. We will adjourn here until 2 o'clock to-morrcvf. (Whereupon, at 5.10 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, June 13, 1911, at 2 o'clock p. m.) No. 7 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPEESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 13, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFHOE 19U EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Cliainnan, Illinois. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRI' GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HBNSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCarron, Clerk. IX EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditures in the Interior Department, House of Representatives, Tuesday, June 13, 1911. The committee having under consideration the investigation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs met at 2 o'clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, and Catlin. There were also present ex-Commissioner of Indian Affairs Francis E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Robert G. Valentine, Mrs. Helen Peirce Gray, Joseph W. Latimer, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, and Thomas Surrama, and E. B. Meritt. The Chairman. Gentlemen of the committee, before proceeding with the regular order of business, I want to call your attention to a matter which has been brought to my attention. The Richmond Evening Journal, of Richmond, Va., on last Satur- day afternoon, June 10, 1911, published an item concerning the peti- tion for writ of habeas corpus involving the body of one Woodbury Beverly Ormsby, a minor. I am not going to burden the record with the part of the statement which applies to the Ormsby trials, but in it appears this statement: A Massachusetts newspaper describes officials of the Department of Justice, at Washington, as having wrongfully expended money belonging to the TTnited States in kidnapping the child in Massachusetts and in concealing the fraud by other expenditures of Goyernment money, and by getting an official of the Interior Department, a deputy register of wills, of Washington, to forge a record, representing that the child's father petitioned the probate court at Washington to be appointed guardian, and that the record of the probate court shows that he so petitioned and was not appointed guardian. It also stated that the persons concerned in the forgery were recommended for indictment by a grand jury, but that indictments were withheld and secretly suppressed by the parties involved. When the writ was filed, Mrs. Ormsby was in Petersburg, and Richmond was chosen as the city in which proceedings were to be brought, because it was nearer Washington, the Ormsby child not being thus able to be present at the proceedings. Mrs. Ormsby, however, very suddenly left Petersburg before the writ could be served, and has returned to Washington. That part of the account which I did not read makes clear that Mrs. Ormsby has possession of the child; that the father and guar- dian of the child sought to retain or rather to regain possession of it by means of a writ of habeas corpus. Mr. Ormsby is here now, and unless there is objection, the com- mittee will give him half an hour to make a statement of this case, so the committee may determine whether, so far as the official of the Interior Department referred to is concerned,, this committee ought 249 250 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEEIOE DBPABTMENT. to take any action in the matter. Is there any objection to giving Mr. Orrasby that time ? [After a pause.] There appears to be none. Mr. Ormsby, you may have half an hour to present the matter to the committee. STATEMENT OF ME,. GEORGE F, ORMSBY. Mr. Ohbisby. A falsely made public document has been recently used in the State of Virginia to deprive a child of a habeas corpus hearing there. The forged record vras made by an official of the Interior Department, who is still in office, and whose salary is one of the expenditures of the Interior Department. The case is mentioned in the Richmond (Va.) Journal of last Saturday, June 10, 1911, and the Richmond (Va.) News-Leader of January 9, 1911. This official, a deputy register of wills and a protege of Corpl. Tanner, has been so aided by other subordinate officials that the only practical way to report the matter to the President is through a committee of Con- gress. I know of no other way in which the child can get relief from the selfish criminals who surround him, the complete history of whose transactions will include a series of perjuries and frauds almost incredible. About January 16, 1908, I took my little son from Washington, D. C, to the Massachusetts seashore, near Newburyport. His divorced mother and a Washington lawyer, Mr. William G. Johnson, and an assistant United States attorney, Harvey Given, conspired to deceive a grand jury in Washington with the false pretense that she had a decree granting her the custody of the child in the District of Columbia. On this false pretense they obtained disbursements of Government money and an indictment, June 24, 1908, charging me with abduction. On July 1, 1908, the child was seized by them, by means of this misappropriation of Government money and court process. The Massachusetts Newburyport News of August 17, 1909, describes the fraudulent carrying away of the child, and I submit it to the com- mittee at this time. On July 6, 1908, the Massachusetts Supreme Court issued a writ of habeas corpus for the release of the child, then shut up in the hot city of Boston. This threatened an exposure which was not ex- pected, and on that very day, July 6, apparently telegraphed by Mrs. Ormsby (who was then at Boston) , one of them, or some one, induced Deputy Register of Wills William C. Taylor to forge a record of the probate court of the District of Columbia, by whi(3i it was made to appear that I was not the guardian of the child. Taylor falsely made a certificate, to which he attached the seal of the probate court, which purported to certify and to be genuine evidence of what he or it called " Case 3517, guardian docket." It described the case as entitled " In the matter of the guardianship of Beverly Ormsby, minor. Case 3517, guardian docket." This "Case 3517, guardian docket," is that of Jessie Sharp Little. Even the " guardian dockets " themselves show that there is no case in the whole probate court by anyone of the name of Ormsby. The sham certificate represented that I had petitioned the probate court to be appointed guardian, and Johnson afterwards admitted that the object was to make it appear that the petition had been pending in court from October, 1907, until EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 251 July 6, 1908, not granted, thus constituting an admission by me on the records of the court that I was not guardian of my son when I took him to Massachusetts. The subsequent history of this case concerns officials not within the jurisdiction of this committee. I can only say, therefore, that the certificate was not used in Massachusetts otherwise than secretly, and it will be found now in the record of the " habeas corpus case 495," of the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, where it was filed July 15, 1909, as an " exhibit," intending to excuse it ver- bally as a " mistake," but leaving it in the record and thus making a false record, purporting to give a copy of a probate court case which never had any existence. In the early part of May, 1911, one of the ablest of the Virginia circuit judges, Hon. Walter A. Watson, who presides over four coun- ties and the city of Petersburg, issued a warrant for the use of an alleged certified copy of the record of this habeas corpus No. 495, in which he decided that not only was the said " exhibit " a forgery, but the alleged order of the judge who tacitly attested it (a friend of Taylor) , was a false entry, untruly purporting to be by authority of section 1148 of the District of Columbia Code. (31 U. S. Stat., 1373.) The judge who made the entry is the same official who is described by the District Court of Appeals in the Washington Post of April 6, 1911, as obtaining " a false and colored verdict from a jury on certain deceptive promises and representations. The judge's order in habeas corpus 495 does not venture to go so far as to ex- pressly state in words that the false certificate is true, nor does he say directly that I was not guardian of my son when I took the latter to the seashore in the summer of 1908. But he uses language which conveys that impression, while at the same time guarding himself against the accusation of explicitly stating what is not a fact. The general object of the forgery and the whole false record was to represent that I kidnaped my son in June, 1908, and therefore could not be trusted with him; that I was not his guardian and lawful custodian when I took him North. The contrary was the truth. Usually forgeries have the excuse of personal gain. This was com- mitted in order to charge an innocent person with crime, with abduc- tion, and in order to release the influential men who were guilty. The record will be found in habeas corpus No. 495, as I say. The Chairman. On the face of your statement it appears that this is not a proper committee to look into the matter. Why do you think this committee should take charge of the matter at all? Mr. Ormsbt. Because I have attempted to confine my statement to the false record, which was made by the deputy register of wills, an official of the Interior Department. The Chairman. Is he still in the Interior Department? Mr. Ormsbt. He is still in the Interior Department, and still re- ceiving pay from the Government. The Chairman. In what capacity is he now acting? Mr. Ormsbt. The same as then, deputy register of wills. The Chairman. When was this done? Mr. Ormsbt. July 6, 1908. The Chairman. Three years ago? Mr. Ormsbt. Very nearly. 252 BXPENDITUBBS IN THE ISTTERIOR DEPABTMENT. The Chairman. Why did you remain silent all this time? Mr. Okmsby. I have not remained silent. I reported the mattei as soon as I discovered it, or shortly after I discovered it, to the Attor- ney General himself. The case was referred by his private secretary to Assistant Attorney General James M. Fowler. Mr. Fowler sent for the records of the court to look them up. They decided it was a forgery, and that the lawyer, W. G. Johnson, was responsible for uttering it. On December 8, 1909, Mr. A. Bruce Bielaski and I went before the grand jury of the District of Columbia, and we had a one- day session. Attorney McCabe, for the Department of Justice, under Mr. Fowler, went with us and presented the case. We thought, and it was believed by the Department of Justice, that District Attorney Baker and the assistant district attorney, Given, were benefited by this forged certificate or intended to be benefited by it, and were a part of the conspiracy, and we took them by surprise. The grand jury, I am told, returned a presentment or indictment; I do not know which. They recommended, however, I have heard from a number of sources, that Taylor should be indicted for forgery and that John- son should be indicted for uttering the forged record on the records of the court. Mr. Fowler's home is in Tennessee, and it happened he went home for the Christmas holidays, leaving the case in the hands of his subordinates. I understand that some of them — or rather Mr. Baker, or somebody else — got to work and made repre- sentations to the Department of Justice to the effect that the indict- ments which were sent down from the Department of Justice were technically defective, and should not be signed by the grand jury or filed in court. In that way they got the case suppressed in some way or other. So the condition of things is this : A grand jury has made a presentment and recommended that these men be indicted, and that recommendation has never been legally passed on by a court, nor has it been tried by a petit jury. The Chairman. Have you personal knowledge that an indictmejit was ordered returned? Mr. Oe:msby. No; I have never looked up the records. I have seen people who have, and they state that the presentment is now there. Mr. Fowler himself told me they had made a presentment. The Chairman. Have you at this time any written statement giving an accurate description of such documents as the committee should have before it to know whether the facts you state are sup- ported by the record? Mr. Ormsby. I think it is quite enough probably to get the papers in the habeas corpus case 495. The habeas corpus records are in charge of an assistant clerk by the name of Frank Smith, and if he is supoenaed to bring those papers here, I think you will find the whole thing there. Mr. Catlin. Why is not this a case for the Department of Justice rather than for the Interior Department? Mr. Ormsby. If the committee take it up they will be confronted with the fact that this man is an oiEcial of the Interior Department. My idea is merely to straighten out this record and report the case, so far as the Interior Department ofiicial is concerned. It is his salary which is involved and over which you have jurisdiction. This is the question — whether you will have retained in office a man who _^»,^i>iai EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBBIOB DEPABTMENT. 25,3 will forge a record, when the public knows of it, when the record can, be shown to be false, here, etc. Mr. Catlin. Is it not a case where the charge can be made before the Department of Justice, and then the Department of Justice; should take the necessary steps to have him tried in a forgery case, and then if he is convicted and the Interior Department still retains him, you can then present your case to the proper committee ? Mr. Oemsby. I have reported this matter to the United States district attorney, Mr. Wilson, and he refuses to prosecute him. Mr. George. Why?, Mr. Oemsbt. You wUl have to ask him. I do not know. The prosecution of this forgery has never been dropped after any eon-, sultation with me. I have never been called before the Department of Justice and asked to present reasons why it should not be dropped. They have done it stealthily and surreptitiously and secretly. The Chairman. The theory on which you come before this com- mittee is that there is on the pay rolls of the Interior Department a man who has been gTiilty of a crime and who, in your judgment, should not be receiving a salary? Mr. Oemsbt. I should suppose not; no, sir. Mr. George. The crime itself had nothing to do with this com- mittee or the business of this committee, but merely with a man in a department which we are investigating, who is alleged to have com- mitted a crime? Mr. Ormsby. That truly recording is part of his duties as an offi- cial of the Interior Department, of course. Mr. Catlin. And that he is charged with a crime for which you do not know as a fact that an indictment has been returned, or the additional fact that the Department of Justice has not seen fit to take steps to prosecute him under that charge. Mr. Ormsby. I know they have not prosecuted him, and I am in- formed by Mr. Fowler and Mr. Bielaski, and by a newspaper reporter, too, and hy Wilson himself, that the grand jury made a presentment or returned an indictment. Mr. Hensley. Why have you not investigated that very point yourself ? Mr. Ormsby. Those records are not in the court records. They are private records in the United States attorney's office. This indict- ment, you understand, was not filed in court. Mr. Hensley. Can you not go and see those records? Mr. Ormsby. They are not open at all. The Chairman. What you mean to state is that the indictment, if one was found, has been suppressed ? Mr. Ormsby. Suppressed in the United States attorney's office. Mr. Hensley. I take it the fact the indictment was returned by the grand jury is a matter of record that anyone can see. The Chairman. It might or might not be. Lawfully it ought to be, but the charge here made is that the proceeding is not lawful. Mr. Hensley. If the grand jury did not find the bill and did not do that which put it up to the other officers to act, as I see it there is nothing this committee can do. But if the grand jury did return an indictment, and it then became the duty of the Department of Justice to act on whatever they did, there might be a question there as to the 254 EXPBNDITXTBES IN THE INTERIOE DBPABTMENT. duty of this committee to investigate that proposition and ascertain why the department has not proceeded. Mr. Catlin. It seems to me the charge, as I understand it, is that a man is now retained in the Interior Department who is charged with a crime. Is that your intention ? Mr. Oemsby. Yes. Mr. Catlin. Is this a case for this committee, simply because an indictment, if it really has been issued, has been issued before the Department of Justice has come to the conclusion whether the man should necessarily be brought to trial ? The Chairman. I take it that is a matter with which this conmiit- tee would have nothing whatever to do, whether he was brought to trial or not. Mr. Catlin. As I understand it, the charge is of retaining a man in the department who is accused of a crime before he has been con- victed. Mr. Geoege. Crime in the course of his official duties, Mr. Ormsby claims. Mr. Valentine. If the committee please, although this has nothing to do with the Indian Office, still, as the ranking representative of the Department of the Interior present, I would like to be a little clear in my mind as to whether this man is under the jurisdiction of the Interior Department or not. I am rather well acquainted with the department, and I do not recall such a position under the department. I am simply asking that so there will be nothing in the record against the Interior Department that is not legitimately there. Mr. Oemsby. Look at the official register of the Interior Depart- ment, and you will find the register of wills' office is under that department and receives pay as a part of the expenditures of that department. The Chairman. Our jurisdiction reaches the examination of ac- counts and expenditures, the manner of keeping them, the economies, justness and correctness of such expenditures. The justness of the case would seem to reach the man accused of a felony and the crime he is accused of is of making a false record. It seems to me that if in the Department of the Interior false records can be made to the injury of citizens, that is a matter that comes very directly under the jurisdiction of this committee. If the office is being adminis- tered in such a way that one of the important employees in that office, in the discharge of his official duties, commits a forgery, I can hardly imagine anything that would come directly before this com- mittee in relation thereto. If it were done by 1, and multiplied by 2 or 10 or 20, if it were being done generally, the office would be very badly administered and the money expended for the support of it would be decidedly applied to a wrong use, assuming the facts are as stated, about which I know nothing. It is not necessary the committee should determine the question now, and I believe your half hour, Mr. Ormsby, must have expired. I would suggest, Mr. Ormsby, that you give the committee specifi- cally the names of such persons and papers as you deem necessary for them to have in order to arrive at a clear understanding of the case. Mr. Oemsby. Would you like to have me read this portion of the testimony, the testimony of the deputy register in this matter? EXPEKDITUKBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 255 The Chairman. Where was it given, and before whom? Mr. Oemsbt. It was taken in the habeas corpus case (495, etc.) on Aprils 1910. The Chairman. How much do you want to read ? Mr. Ormsby. Just the certified copy of the certificate of the deputy register, Taylor, and the testimony of the other deputy reg- ister, Griffith, showing that there is no such case. The Chairman. Go ahead. Mr. Ormsby. This stenographic report reads: In tbe Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, hoWlBg probate court. DiSTBiOT OP Columbia, ss: I, William C. Taylor, deputy register of wills for the District of Columbia, clerk of the probate court, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a true copy of the original petition of George F. Ormsby, for appointment as guardian, filed in the ofiice of the register of wills for the District of Columbia, clerk of the probate court, in the matter of the guardianship of Beverly Ormsby, minor. Case No. 3517, gdn. doc. I further certify that I have compared this copy with the original paper in said office and find it to be a full, true, and correct transcript thereof. Winess my hand and the seal of the probate court this 6th day of July, A. D. 1908. W. C. Tatloe, Deputy Register of Wills for the District of Colunibia, Cleric of the Prolyate Court. On Tuesday, April 5, 1910, M. J. Griffith testified in this matter, as follows : M. J. Griffith, a witness of lawful age, produced by and on behalf of the petitioner, being first duly sworn, is examined by Mr. Thompson : Q. What is your present position? — ^A. Deputy register of wiUs. Q. Have you with you the general index and the docket? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you please take the general index, which I understand is the index to everything of record in the register of wills' office. — A. Yes, sir ; an index of tJie wards from 1906 to date. Q. From the beginning of 1906 or any particular month? — A. From the beginning of it. Q. Beginning at 1906 to date. Will you take the general index and find in it, if you please, a case in reference to W. B. Ormsby or George F. Ormsby? Just turn to it in the index, please — O-r-m-s-b-y. — A. I do not find it in here. Q. Are you looking in the place where that name should appear — O-r-m-s-b-y ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. This index is alphabetically arranged, is it? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the index to the docket? — A. The index to more than one docket; all of the dockets that would be included in those dates. Q, Of the dockets that would be included in the time from the beginning of 1906 up to date? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, will you take the dockets which you have there and turn to guard- ianship case No. 3517 and tell me what case that is? — ^A. 3517, ward ; Jessie Sharp Little, guardian of William S. Dougherty, minor or infant, bom on August 4, 1888. Q. What is the date there, if any? — A. Letters were issued June 4, 1906. It might be interesting to know what excuse these people gave for this. They were put on the stand — Johnson was, and I would like to read part of his testimony as to that. The answer to the petition for the writ in this case, filed July 1, 1909, which I sug- gested be sent for, contains this allegation : The petitioner filed a petition in this court holding a probate court in pro- ceeding No. 3517, guardianship, in which petitioner prayed to have himself appointed guardian of said child by this court, but no order appointing him such guardian was ever entered. 256 EXFENDITURBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. This witness on the stand was W. G. Johnson, the man who was indicted or presented for uttering the forged document. His testi- mony reads : Q. In what record did you mean? What record did you intend to have the reader of this record refer to? I suppose you were referring to A. That no decree had been " entered " in this court in the case. Q. In what record? — A. In that case. Q. In the case in that docket there? Is that what you are speaking of?— A. In the case in which the petition was filed. Q. What is the case 3517, guardianship, or proceeding 3517, guardianship, to use your language? — A. I have forgotten the name of it on the docket of the court. It had nothing to do with Ormsby. Q. Why did you not put in the name of the " case 3517, guardianship "? Why did you omit the name in describing? — ^A. Because when I prepared the answer I relied upon the certificate of the register of wills as being absolutely correct. I would like to draw the attention of the committee to the question, How could he know, as he alleged in the answer, that " no order was ever entered," unless he looked at the docket? And if he had looked at the docket he would have seen that there was no such case. In other words, in swearing he believed the certificate to be '" correct " he committed perjury. The Chairman. Has this matter been investigated by any con- gressional committee heretofore? Mr. Ormsby. None at all. The Chairman. Was it ever up before any Senate committee? Mr. Ormsby. No, sir; never. Motion was made in this case to strike the certificate from the files, and this motion is quoted here in order to be put on the record as the excuse this man made. I will say this record was paid for by Mr. Bielaski, of the Department of Justice. The presentment was made in December, 1909, and we were prepared to take the case to the grand jury again, and for that this testimony was taken The Chairman. Do you wish to leave any papers you have with us? We are keeping a great many people waiting and do not care to give this matter any more time at this moment ; but if you wish to leave any of these papeis you have, you may do so. As I suggested, if you will make a specific statement in writing of the persons and papers that the committee should call or investigate, if they desire to inquire into the matter, we will be obliged to you for that. Mr. Ormsby. I will prepare such a statement. (Mr. Ormsby here retired. from the committee room.) The Chairman. You may proceed, Mr. Latimer. TESTIMOET OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE— Continued. Mr. Latijier. I \\ould introduce in e\ idence a report of Supervisor of Alloting Agents Carl Gunderson on Salt Eiver and Camp McDowell Reservations, having thereon the receiving stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, dated February 24, 1911, file' No. 16170, and reading as follows: Report op Supervisor of Allotting Agents Cakl Gunderson on Salt Riveb AND Camp McDowell Reservations. SALT river reservation. Section 1. In accordance with instructions from the office, Mr. Roblin, special allotting agent, reached the Salt River Reservation December 5 and began making preparations for allotting the Indians of that reservation. EXPENDlTtTEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 257 The Land Office surveyors had just begun the survey of the reservation. They were Instructed to ignore a former survey by which the Indians had selected some of their land. It was soon discovered that the new survey would not correspond with the old survey and that the new lines would, in many cases, extend through the fields and improvements of the Indians. This was the first cause for objection on the part of the Indians to taking allotments. This was followed by a request for larger areas of irrigable land for each allotment. And they also requested that water be furnished them for 10 acres of irrigable land instead of for 5. When some, who were occupying and using more land than eonM be allotted to them, discovered that they must give up some of their present holdings they objected to make any selection. I am of the opinion that they have been influenced to some extent by outsiders, Their attitude at this time is entirely different from what it was when I visited the reservation last summer. While I held no council with the Indians at the time, yet I questioned those in authority very closely, and they assued me that the recommendations which I proposed to make would be entirely sat- isfactory to the Indians. Allotting Agent Roblin has done everything possible to overcome the oppo- sition to the allotment work. He has succeeded In making 534 allotments of Irrigable land on the Salt Elver Reservation. There are about 466 yet to be allotted. Mr. Roblin believes that the remainder can be allotted in about one month if the opposition is not too great and if there is not too much indifference. The leader of the opposition is Chief Juan Chappo. I drove to his place on the 11th, but failed to find him at home. I again drove to his place on the 12th, and found him at home. I tried to explain all features of the work to which he has been known to make objections. He appeared to be satisfied with the explanation and agreed to meet me to-day, after talking with some of his fol- lowers. However, he failed to keep his appointment. Mr. Roblin will continue to allot them as fast as he can persuade them to make their selections. The surveyors will finish their work on this reserva- tion in about 10 days and will then begin the work on the I'ima Reservation. The question of preparing the family histories will be taken up with Super- intendent J. B. Alexander, of the Pima Reservation. It is possible that a suit- able person can be assigned to that work on both reservations, and thus enable the allotting agent to continue the field work uninterrupted. REMOVAL OF CAMP M'DOWELL INDIANS TO SALT RIVER RESERVATION. Sec. 2. On February 7, 1911, accompanied by Special Allotting Agent C. E. Roblin, I drove to the Camp McDowell School, which is in charge of Supt. 0. B. Coe. The afternoon was spent in examining the canal used by the Mojave Apache Indians in conducting the water from the Verde River to the land now under cultivation. The canal is 6 miles long. From the point of intalce the canal crosses a sand bar where it fills up, more or less, at every flood, involving a great amount of lalmr in cleaning it out. The brush dam which is constructed to divert the waters of the Verde into the canal is a temporary affair and must be replaced at much expense after every flood. The cost of maintaining the dam and canal during 1910, based on money actually expended and on value of extra labor, was about $2,000. The amount of land thus irrigated was about 400 acres. This means that every acre of land that was irrigated in this manner cost the Indians and Government, in money and labor, $5. This is a very expensive and uncertain system of irrigation. There are about 200 Mojave Apache Indians on the Camp McDowell Reser- vation. There are about 40 families and they are sending 22 children to the day school taught by Mrs. Coe. The Indians own about 175 horses, mostly ponies, and about 60 head of cattle. Their means of livelihood are the grain and vegetables they grow ; the money derived from the sale of cattle, wood, and baskets; some money is earned in working on railroads off the reservation. A general council was called for the evening of the 7th which was well attended by the Indians of the reservation. After selecting their own inter- preter, the wishes of the Indians were presented by their chief, Yuma Frank and George Dickens. They recited their past history, as usual, and maintained that they were promised a permanent home on that reservation. Instead of consenting to be removed to the Salt River Reservation they asked that the Government build a concrete dam across the Verde River and give them their allotments there where they had lived so long. They plead long and earnestly 258 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. for Government aid In their irrigation work and permission to retain their present homes. Allotting Agent C. B. Boblln and myself explained as best we could how expert engineers had reported against the proposition to build a concrete dam across the Verde River. We also explained how much time and money was expended each year to maintain their present uncertain irrigating system. We also explained that no more financial aid could be expected from the Govern- ment for this system. But we assured them that we would urge the approval of a request made by Supt. Coe for funds to assist them in opening up the ditches for the Irrigation of their land on the Salt River Reservation. Having learned that their chief had received a letter from the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, dated June 18, 1910, we proceeded to his home and secured a copy of the letter which is attached hereto and marked " Ex- hibit A." In view of this assurance given the Indians in this letter, that they would not be moved to the Salt River Reservation against their wishes, we prepared and presented them with a copy of a statement, a copy of which is here- to attached, marked " Exhibit B," which is in the nature of one request, one concession, and two recommendations. The request was that they were to meet Mr. Roblin at a specified time, on the land selected for them by Mr. Coe and Mr. Alexander, on the Salt River Reservation, which is shown on the accompanying tracing, marked " Exhibit C," and make their selections of 5 acres each of land with assured water Exhibit C. rights, and 5 acres each of land with possible water rights. Then, accord- ing to the letter of the commissioner, they would be permitted to retain, for EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. 259 the present, their homes on the Camp McDowell Reservation and use It for grazing purposes, as heretofore. We then agreed to recommend that a school be maintained at that station as long as a majority of the children of school age were in their homes in that locality; and that school facilities be given them in their new homes whenever a majority of the children of school age were in homes in that locality. We also agreed to recommend that a farmer be placed in charge of the sta- tion after Mr. Coe left there, and that the farmer be kept there as long as the station was maintained. We reasoned that the office could well afford to grant these concessions if all the Indians would select their irrigable land on the Salt Eiver Reservation, Imowing that some of the younger Indians would soon begin improving their irrigable allotments; that every one that did so would mean one less able- bodied man to assist in keeping up their present expensive system of irriga- tion : that with the gradual decrease in the numbers of men who could be de- pended on for labor, and with all assistance from the Government, for that work, cut off, they would soon abandon it and begin using the land for which water is furnished free for 5 acres. After concluding our arguments we withdrew from the council and gave them an opportunity to discuss the matter freely among themselves. However, we instructed Mr. Coe's interpreter to remain in the council and report to us what was said for or against the proposition we made them. When we returned to the council we were Informed that they had unanimously agreed not to accept them ; that they would remain where they were ; and they begged us to recommend that the Government construct, for them, a permanent irriga- tion system and allot them where they live. I replied that I regretted their decision, but that the lands selected for them on Salt River Reservation would be held open for them; that no further aid could be expected from the Government for their irrigating system, and that no permanent system would be constructed in the Verde Valley, at least for the present. The council then adourned, at 11 p. m. It was evident that some influence was at work to hold them back. The next morning we sought to discover by interviewing them singly as to the cause of the opposition. During the morning we succeeded in persuading David Gilbert and his wife, NeUie Gilbert, two of the most intelligent Indians on the reservation, to select their irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation. We then learned that an Indian by the name of Charles Dickens had recently received a letter from a relative in Chicago, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, giving him some advice. We drove to Mr. Dickens's place and requested permission to see the letter. Permission was reluctantly given. A copy of the relevant portions of the letter it attached hereto, marked " Exhibit D." ' This, then, was the cause of the determined stand against removal taken by the Indians. I told Mr. Dickens that I would secure from the office definite information as to the status of the bill purported to have been introduced in Congress. Request for this information is made the subject of another letter. It will be observed that Sir. Montezuma states that he has expended $100 while in Washington attending to this matter. I could not learn whether or not any money had been or will be paid this man for his efforts in their behalf. Before leaving the reservation we fixed a time for those who were ready to select land on the Salt River Reservation to meet Mr. Roblin there. On Feb- ruary 10 I accompanied Mr. Roblin to the place, on the Salt River Reservation, where he was to meet some of the Camp McDowell Indians, and we found four people awaiting us there — Mr. and Mrs. Gilbert, Leonard Hay, and Mike Nelson. These four made selections of irrigable land for themselves and fam- ilies and relatives, numbering In all 22 people. Supt. Coe sent me a note by these people stating that others were seriously considering the matter and that we could expect to allot more soon. With this beginning and the encouraging report from Supt. Coe, who appears to have gained the full confidence of these people, it is reasonable to expect that a large portion of that band will' be allotted soon. In conversation with those who were allotted on the 10th of February, I learned that they realized that this was practically their last year for farming on the Camp McDowell Reservation; that they could expect no more aid from the Government for their temporary system of irrigation, and that every family ^ Not printed. 260 BXPENDITUKBS IIT THE INTERIOR DEPABXMJiJNr. selecting land on the Salt River Keservation meant one less for the work oij the Camp McDowell Reservation. As long as Mr. Roblin remains on the Salt River Reservation he will assist all Camp McDowell Indians who make applications for land on the Salt Rivey Reservation to get the best land available. In the meantime Supt. Coe will familiarize himself with the lines of the land set aside for them, and when Mr. Roblin leaves for the Gila Reservation Mr. Coe can take the selections of the Indians, and these can be verified by some one authorized to do so or authority can be given to Mr. Coe to make the allotments. Practically no sur. veying will be needed, because the allotting surveyor has divided the land into 10-acre tracts and he has marked the points for corners, which would divide these pieces into 5-acre tracts. I will therefore recommend that no further action be taken by the office at this time looking to the removal of the Mojave Apache Indians from the Camp McDowell to the Salt River Reservation, but to give some time for the present influence to be felt. Very respectfully, Gael Gtjndebson, Svpervisor of Allotting Agents. Exhibit A. Department of the Interiob, Office op Indian Affairs, Washington, June IS, 1911. Chief Yuma Frank et al. (Through superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School), McDowell, Ariz. My Friends : I have your petition of May 7, setting out your reasons to be allowed to remain at Camp McDowell. In suggesting your removal to Salt River the office has your best interests in view. However, you shall not be required to go there against your will. The Government school at Camp McDowell will be maintained during the next fiscal year, and you will be allowed to use the land for grazing purposes as heretofore. Those Indians who will take allotments at Salt River first will be given the best places there ; and no doubt when you see that they have bettered their condition by removing to Salt River you will be anxious to follow their example later. When you are ready to do so, let me know. I am glad you appreciate what the Government has done, and I think you will also appreciate what it is now willing and .inxious to do for you by placing you at Salt River, where there will be even better facilities than you now enjoy at Camp McDowell. Mr. Coe will advise you and assist you in this Important step when you are ready to accept the proposition of removing to Salt River Reservation. Very respectfully, R. G. Valentine, Commissioner. Exhibit B. Proposal or Allotment Made to the Indians of Camp McDowell Indian Reservation by Supebvisob Gundeeson, Superintendent Cob, and Allotting Agent Roblin on Pebbuary 7, 1910. The Camp McDowell Indians are urged to take irrigable lands — that is, land which can be farmed with proper use of water — on the Salt River Reservation. We can give everyone 5 acres of land on the Salt River Reservation and will buy water enough to irrigate it. Then- we will give everyone 5 acres more on the Salt River Reservation for which we can not buy water now, but for which you can buy water some time when you are able. We have picked out enough land south of the bridge on the Arizona Canal to make these allotments. Before we can buy the water for it we must know just what laud you own and just what land to buy water for. So if you will set a day, Mr. Roblin will meet you and show you all over the land aud let you pick out what you want. EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 261 For the present the Commissioner of Indian Affairs agrees to let you live on the Camp McDowell Reservation and use that land for grazing purposes, as you have been doing. We will recommend that the commissioner make arrangements so that you will be able to send your children to school. As long as a majority of the chil- dren are on the Camp McDowell Reservation we will recommend that a school be maintained here. If enough of you should move to your irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation so that a majority of the children are there, we will recommend that arrangements be made so that you can send your children to school from there. We will recommend that when Mr. Coe and his wife leave here and move to Salt River, a farmer be put in charge of the agency here who will run the station and school as long as it is kept here. Mr. George. Did Mr. Valentine see that paper ? Mr. Latimee. I will hand it to him now. Mr. Valentine. It looks like our files, Mr. Latimer. Mr. George. Do you remember that letter ? Mr. Valentine. No. Mr. George. Did you ever see that letter before ? Mr. Valentine. No. Mr. Latimer. I now offer letter of March 9, 1911, or what purports to be a carbon copy of an answer to the letter just read, from the Indian Department, signed by C. F. Hauke, second assistant to com- missioner, and addressed to Mr. Carl Gunderson, supervisor oif allotting agents, Denver, Colo., and reading as follows : Maech 9, 1911. Mr. Carl Gundbbson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents, Denver, Colo. (Through Chief Supervisor.) Sie: On February 24, 1911, the office received your report on tlie allotment work under Special Allotting Agent Roblin on the Salt River and Camp McDowell Reservations, Ariz. The office is glad to know that satisfactory progress is being made in this work and that at least a limited number of the Gamp McDowell Indians are indicating a willingness to remove to and accept allotments on the Salt River reserve. Respectfully, C. F. Hattke, Second Assistant Commissioner. Mr. Latimer. At this point, Mr. Valentine, in a great deal of this correspondence the signatures on the carbon copies of letters from your office are made with a rubber stamp. For instance, the signa- ture I just read is a rubber stamp signature, " C. F. Hauke." Is there any question as to who wrote the letter under similar copies? Mr. Valentine. Substantially no question at all, and if there were it could be verified by a reference to our carbon-copy file, which takes a press copy of the actual signature as made. Mr. Latimer. If the party whose name appears with a rubber- stamp signature on those carbon copies did not write the letter, it would be an exception, or simply a clerical error? Mr. Valentine. It would be a very unusual exception. It would be due to the fact that the clerk who did the stamping had picked up the wrong stamp. They have my name and they have Mr. Ab- bott's name, and they have Mr. Hauke's name; and, of course, it is conceivable that in stamping he might have got the wrong stamp and it escaped his notice. 262 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERXUB JJEii'AJtXiVLJJiJNX. Mr. Latimer. The point I was wanting to cover is that your sys- tem in the oflSce is such that it is safe to assume that the part^'^ signature appearing in this stamped manner is the party who wrote the letter? Mr. Valentine. Absolutely so. I would like to comment right there, Mr. Latimer, if I might, on a point I noticed in Mr. Gunder- son's letter, which has been in my mind for some time during this hearing, and that is why, with all the interest he took in this mat; ter. Dr. Montezuma never came to see me personally. That is a ques- tion in my mind that I can not get rid of. I would like to find out some time why. Mrs. Gray. May I answer that question, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Catlin. It seems to me Dr. Montezuma can answer for himself on that. Mr. Valentine. I did not mean to ask any question. I just wanted the committee to know that it had been in my mind, and at the proper time the committee will bring it out. The Chairman. The doctor can keep it in mind and bring it out when they are heard. Mr. Valentine. The reason I want it on the record is that here is a matter that seems to have appeared very strongly one way to the Indian Office and very strongly another way to Dr. Montezuma, and why he did not ascertain what my own personal relations were to it or ideas were on it is simply a question in my mind. I do not care to have it answered at this time. The Chairman. We will keep it in mind when the doctor is under oath; but we do not care to get anything in the record we can avoid except sworn testimony. Mr. Latimer. I would suggest that an answer to that, in my judg- ment, would not thoroughly and completely develop the situation. It is a little hard to observe any orderly procedure and answer each question that might possibly be raised as it comes up at that par- ticular moment. The Chairman. It is safer to confine the examination to one wit- ness at a time. Mr. Latimer. In the letter just read, Mr. Valentine, Mr. Gunder- son states that " The cost of maintaining the dam and canal during 1910, based on money actually expended and on value of extra labor, was about $2,000." You have the figures in your office where that statement could be verified, have you not? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Will you kindly give this committee, at the next hearing, the figures which actually were expended on these ditches during the year 1910? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. In reference to an Indian who is sufficiently edu- cated to speak the English language, to write letters and send them, and to receive letters, what is the authority of your superintendents to demand letters, or the contents of letters, that have been received by such an Indian when he has received them in the usual course through the United States mail? Mr. Valentine. I can not answer that question as to authority, because just what absolute rights they would have I do not know^ but as a policy it would be distinctly that an Indian would have the EXPBNDITUEES IN a?HE I2JTEEI0E DEPARTMENT. 268 same ri^ht to his correspondence that you would have to yours or me to mine. Mr. Latimer. You do not approve of any practice that would justify your superintendents in demanding the contents of confiden- tial communications received by mail, do you? Mr. Valentine. I should not approve any such course. Mr. Latimee. In this letter is mentioned the fact that he learned that their chief had received a letter from the honorable Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, dated June 18, 1910, and that they pro- ceeded to his home and secured a copy of the letter. Would you not assume that if your office wished the superintendent to know what you were writing the chief it would have sent him a copy? Mr. Valentine. He very likely had been sent a copy. It is quite frequently the custom to mail copies of such letters to superin- tendents. Mr. Latimee. Can you give any explanation as to why this super- intendent would go to this Indian and ask him for a copy of a letter that he heard you had written to him ? Mr. Valentine. It may have been there was no copy sent to the superintendent, and it would be a shorter method than to write to Washington for such a copy. Mr. Latimee. Then it appears later on in the letter that he heard that Dr. Montezuma, a iriend of Charles Dickens, had recently received a letter from him, and he says : We drove to Mr. Dickens's' place and requested permission to see the letter. Permission was reluctantly given. What explanation could you make as to why the superintendent probably did that and still kept within his powers in the perform- ance of his duties as superintendent? Mr. Valentine. I should say the fact that the Indian finally gaVe him permission to see the letter, and that there is nothing to show that anything more than a request was made of the Indian so to do, that the superintendent was still within his jurisdiction. Mr. Latimee. Would it not be natural to assume that where the statement is made, "Permission was reluctantly given," that they must have used some persuasion of some kind? Mr. Valentine. I think that deduction would be largely colored by the meaning that the person construing the record wanted to read into it. I see nothing that would lead me to think that myself. Mr. Latimee. Suppose it should develop that in this particular instance your superintendent drove to Mr. Dickens's place and asked to see the letter, and Mr. Dickens said it was a personal letter and he did not want to show it, and that thereupon your superintendent demanded that he should produce the letter, would you still feel the superintendent was acting within his duties? Mr. Valentine. I think he was acting away outside of his duties, if he did that, because he would be acting in a way that would not be at all in harmony with the purposes for which the Indian Bureau exists in its relation to the Indians. Mr. Latimee. I also notice in this letter— and I call your atten- tion to the date, February 24, 1911— the statement that— During the morning we succeeded in persuading David Gilbert and his wife, Nellie Gilbert, two of the most intelligent Indians on the reservation, to select their irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation. 98240— No. 7—11 2 ,'264 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. I suggest that that clears up the question of the exact time of the selection which was mentioned in your testimony on yesterday. Mr. Valentine. What was the date of that letter ? , Mr. Latimer. The date of this letter is Mr. Valentine (interrupting). I beg your pardon. What was the date Mr. Gunderson during that morning fixed in persuading them? Mt. Latimer. That date, Mr. Valentine, is not given. It has no date itself, except it has a mark of the receiving stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs " February 24, 1911." Mr. Vauentine. So presumably it was some time in the mantti of February or late in January. Mr. Latimer. Of 1911. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. It develops in reference to that letter that jfriir agent, after using some persuasion, as he expresses it, noted foom its contents, a personal letter written from Dr. Montezuma to Charles Dickens, that Dr. Montezuma stated in that letter he had expended $100 while in Washington attending to this matter, and your ageat further states : I could not learn whether or not any money had been or will be paid this man for his efforts in their behalf. iState why the ^gent should interest himself in regard to that, if you will, pilease, so we will thoroughly understand the matter. Mr. Valentine. That raises a pretty big question, Mr. Latimer. It is the agent's duty to interest himself in all the forces or forms of environment that may surround or enter into the life of the Indians for whose welfare he is responsible. Of course, one of the main of those influences is the influence of the ^after. Another is— — Mr. Lattmer (interrupting) . If you will pardon .me>, will you state a reason that would justify that practice in your department in this particular instance, if you can think of one? Mr. Valentine. It would be an administrative reason that the Interior Department, and specifically the Office of Indian Affairs, is held responsible for the best government of the Indian reservations, and if the superintendent had any reason to believe that anyone was advising the Indians contrary to their best interests, it would be decidedly up to him to ascertain that fact. Mr. Latimer. But in reference to whether or not the Indians paid Dr. Montezuma $100 Mr. Valentine (interrupting). That would raise the whole ques- tion of attorneys' iees. The Indians would, of course, have a right, so far as any money in their own possession was concerned, to pay anybody that they chose for any purpose they chose. The Govern- ment has nothing to say about it. Mr. Latimer. Then, why did this agent ask whether he had paid $100 to Dr. Montezuma? Mr. Valentine. Because, with all due respect to Dr. Montezuma— I do not mean any reflection on him — ^it might or might not be that such a request would involve the finding out whether some grafter was milking the Indians or not. Mr. Latimer. It resolves itself down then entirely to a question of what your agent himself individually may figure out to be good pr bad for the Indians ? ■EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOR DBPABTMBNT. 265 ;■ Mr. VAjUBNTi>fE. Exactly as' if you had a son, , it would be up to -•you to figtoe qut what he was paying somebody $100 for if you had any doubt about the matter whatesver. Mr. Latimer. He maikes ip this report also the statement that : ■On B%br«ary 10 I accompanied Mr. Koblin to the place, on the Salt River Eeservation, trhere he was to meet some of the Camp McDowell Indians, and we found four people awaiting us there — Mr. and Mrs. Gilbert, Leonard Hay, cand Mike Nelson. These four made selections of irrigable land for themselves and families and relatives, numbering in all 22 people. ■I asked you yesterday in reference to the records of the allotments .of Camp McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reservation. I wish of ' lagt November. They work for very small wages; i. e., 50 cents per diem single ha,nd and $1 per diem; for man and team, and board themselves. Even at these small wages the sum of $575 was expended on the repairs of this ditch . by Supt. Goodman, and it would require $300 more to complete the worli and buil While it is possible that no such excessive floods may occur again for a period >• of years, the fact remains that the work we are now recommending is liable to 270 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. be swept away to a large degree next winter. The Government will have to take the same chances in this respect as did the former white settlers, and if the extraordinary wet years continue it may be wise to adopt the following alemative toward creating a permanent plant, to wit: At a point about li miles above the head of the Jones Ditch the Verde River iikipinges against a steep and high gravel bluff, which is underlaid with sand- stone bedrock. It would be possible to place permanent headworks at this point with gates anchored on bedrock and a thorough cut excavated suflBcIently far into the bluff to admit of a gravity canal being safe from the high water. Since the flood line of last November is approximately 14 feet higher than the bed of the stream, the canal would have to be excavated to a similar depth at the head, and in view of the character of material, it would be most expensive work ; hence, for these reasons and those hitherto given with reference, to the small area of land to be served, I would not -recommend such headworks. The alternative permanent work referred to would be the erection at this point of a small but substantial steam pumping plant which would elevate 500 inches of water from the Verde River into a small canal located on the slope of gravel bluff well above flood line. This would necessitate about a 14-foot lift of the water, and while such a plant should only be considered as a last resort, it is a iwssible method of caring for the Camp McDowell Reservation in a manner which will obviate the necessity of continual repairs to temporary canals and dams, such as the Indians are now struggling to maintain. There is an abun- dance of wood on the reservation which, m event of such construction, it is probable the Indians would furnish free to the plant If the Ctovemment wonld erect the same and employ an engineer .to operate it. I would not advise the consideration of such an alternative at this time, however, but in view of the difficult nature of the water problem on this res- ervation, it was thought proper to make surveys which would enable me to prepare plans for such a plant in the future should it seem advisable. In closing, I again recommend that the sum of $2,000 be allowed Supt. Good- man for the prosecution of the work above outlined. Realizing the many de- mands upon the annual irrigation fund, I have not presumed that any money could be spared from it at this time ; hence the suggestion with reference to the other fund named. Very respectfully, W. H. Code, Chief Engineer. Depabtment of the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington, March SO, 1906. The Secretary of thi'. Interior. Sir: On Jlarch 16, 1906, the First Assistant Secretary of the Interior referred to this office for proper action a letter of March 10, 1906, from W. H: Code, chief engineer, reporting that he visited the Camp McDowell Reservation, Ariz., and conducted surveys necessary to determine the best method of making the needed repairs to the damaged irrigation canals there. He reports that the Indians on this reservation have worked hard and long in effectin;; the oft-repeated repairs to the ditches and dams; that they are becoming very much discouraged ; that nearly 100 of them have left their new reservation for San Carlos and other points; that there still remain about 100 Indians; that a larse number of the able-bodied men have been at work for several weeks in rebuilding 4,000 feet of the Mazon Ditch, which was practi- cally obliterated for this distance by the disastrous flood of last November; that they work for very small wages, 50 cents per diem single hand and $1 per diem for man and team, and board themselves; that even at these small wages the sum of $575 was expended on the repairs of this ditch by the super- intendent ; that it wonld require $300 more to complete the work and build the necessary diversion dam of brush and rock ; that he set final grade stakes for the Indians on this ditch before leaving the reservation and informed them that they must finish the work without compensation, since the superintendent had no further funds a\'ailable with which to pay them; and that they tools his news in good spirit and began to finish the work immediately with a fair force. He reports the situation with reference to the Jones ditch to be more serious, it having been damaged in a larger degree by the last heavy flood, and says EXPENDITURES IK THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 271. tljat it will require approximately $2,000 to repair tliis canal and extend the Government ditch about a mile and a half to cover additional lands now pre- sumed to be watered by the High Line or Jcmes Ditch. He also says that the Government ditch will need repairing in a number of places and some enlargements; that the work as planned will be in effect to give the lower Government canal a better heading by utilizing the upper 7,000 f^et of the Jones Ditch, increasing the depth of the latter 2 feet for this dis- tance below its present grade, and turning the water into the lower lying and parallel Government ditch by means of a crosscut ditch ; that by building up the diversion dam a foot higher than it will ordinarily have to be maintained and closing the crosscut gates it will be possible to send sufficient water down the Jones Ditch to tate care of the 60 acres of alfalfa now growing thereunder, and possibly to save soem of ;the 140 acres of grain at present- in good condition. He therefore. recommends that $2,000 be allowed Supt. Goodman for the pur- pose of employing Indian labor to carry on the construction as above outlined, and that the funds, if possible, be appropriated from the " Support of Indians In New Mexico and Arizona, 1906 ; " also that Supt. Goodman be allowed to em- ploy a white foreman at a compensation of $3 per diem to superintend the work, since Additional Farmer Gill will not be able to give his entire time to the con- struction and perform his other duties. He says that it will facilitate matters if the superintendent can be apprised by wire if the above recommendations are concurred in, because the Indians should start on this work at once in order that water may be obtained for growing crops, and that Mr. Gill has been furnished with the necessary data to enable the work to be begun immediately. He reports the total area cultivated on the reservation in the past to be about 900 acres on the west side of the river under the Jones, Government, and Mazon Ditches, and approximately 400 acres on the east side under the Velasco Ditch. Assuming that this entire acreage is entitled to a low-water supply from the Verde River, he thinks there would be only 1,300 acres on both sides of the river, demanding two permanent headings, either of which would be most ex- pensive to build. At a jpoint about IJ miles above the head of the Jones Ditch this river, he says. Impinges against a steep and high gravel bluff, which is underlaid with sand- stone bedrock. He reports that it would be possible to place permanent head- works at this point with gates anchored on bedrock and a " thoroughcut " exca- vated sufficiently far into the bluff to admit of a gravity canal being safe from high water. As the flood line of last November is approximately 14 feet higher than the bed of the stream, he says the canal would have to be excavated to a similar depth at the Jaead, and in view of the character of material, that it would be most expensive work; that for these reasons and those heretofore given with reference to the small area of land to be served, he would not recom- mend such headworks. He says that a second project would be the erection at the point above men^ tioned on the Verde River of a small but substantial steam pumping plant, which would lift 500 inches of water from this river into a small canal located on the slope of gravel bluff well above flood line ; that this would necessitate about a 14-foot lift of the water ; and that while such a plant should be considered only as a last resort, it is a possible method of caring for the Camp McDowell Reser- vation in a manner which will obviate the necessity for continual repairs to the temporary canals and dams such as the Indians are now struggling to maintain. He further says that there is an abundance of wood on the reservation which, in case of such construction, the Indians would furnish probably free to the plant, if the Government should erect it and employ an engineer to operate it. He thought it proper to make surveys which would enable liim to prepare plans for such a plant in the future, if deemed advisable; but he does not advise the consideration of the proposition at the present time. In closing his report he recommends again that $2,000 be allowed Supt. Goodman for the prosecution of the work above outlined, and says that he does so because he realizes the many demands upon the annual irrigation fund, and presumes that no money can be spared from it at this time. In view of the report and recommendation of Mr. Code, and the urgent need for the prosecution of the work planned, I respectfully recommend that au- thority be granted the superintendent of the Phoenix School, who is in charge of this reservation, to expend not exceeding $2,000 in making the repairs and prosecuting the work outlined by the chief engineer, payable from the ap- 272- EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. pro'prlation " For support and civilization of the Indians in Arizona and New' Mexico, 1906," which fund will not be exhausted if this authority is granted. Attention is invited to the fact that- an appropriation of $225,000 was made for this purpose by act of March 3, 1905 (33 Stat., 1048), with the provision that the unexpended balante for the fiscal year 1905 should be appropriated and made available for 1906. It is true that the sum named, If authorized, ' would not be used directly for the support of these Indians, but it would be used Indirectly for this purpose, and certainly to advance their civilization. The oflBce is therefore of the opinion that the funds referred to are available for use in the manner indicated. I recommend also that the superintendent be authorized to pay from said, amount the sum of $20 to H. F. Robinson, Irrigation engineer, who examined ' and reported on the damaged irrigation ditches on the Oamp McDowell Reser- vation, pursuant to a request from the former. The report of the latter was transmitted to this office by the superintendent, with his letter of December 12 last, from which it appears that he regarded the employment of Mr. Robinson as necessary at that time. His report shows that there were very serious' damages to all of the canals in question. It was before Chief Engineer Cod'e'' when he made his investigation of these ditches-. The superintendent says in his letter of December 13 last that he believes, after reading Mr. Robinson's report; his action will meet with the approval of the office. He inclosed therewith blank vouchers in amount $20, covering Mr. Robinson's trip to the reservation, his examination of the ditches, and report tiereon. The report of Mr. Code and the accompany papers are inclosed. I also ill- close the letter of the superintendent and accompanying blank vouchers, with request for the return of these papers with your reply. There is also inclosed a copy of this report. Very respectfully, C. F. Labbabeb, Aoting Commissioner. Mr. Valentine. I would like to ask if there is in the record any report from Supervisor Lewis Hill, of the Reclamation Service, bearing on this matter? Mr. Latimer. There is none in the record that I know of,, up to date. Whether I have one to put in, I do not know. If I have over- looked anything of that kind, the commissioner can easily check it. The Chairman. What was the name? Mr. Valentine. Supervisor Lewis Hill. In making the inquiry: which I was asked to make, or rather in making an inquiry which, I made in pursuance of a question asked by Mr. Latimer^ the office told me that Supervisor Hill had made a record in reference to this matter, but, of course, as all the papers are before the committee and not in the possession of the office, we could not ascertain the matter. The Chairman. Such a report has not gone into the printed record yet. Mr. Valentine. I was wondering whether it was in the papersyet. Mrs. Gray. May I answer that? I think it is in the desk down, at. your office. I did not bring it up. It was practically the same as this, and there was nothing in it that was not in Mr. Code's letter. Mr. Valentine. I should like to have it in the record before the committee, because it is my understanding all the papers are befcffe. the committee. Mrs. Gray. There are a number I did not take. I selected these out of three or four times as many. I tried not to duplicatte' any- thing. The Chairman. Any of these which you think relevant, wiiichyau wish to have printed, you may call to the attention of the canraiittee. Mrs. Gray. I think I turned them over to Mr. Abbott when I was E•XPE^fMTTJRE9 IN THE'INTEBIOR DBPAB.TMENT. 278^' down there this morning, and they have been taken back to the files. They were in the drawer of the desk. Mr. Valentine. It would also help the Indian Office to meet fairly and squarely the issues before the committee, as to information to be furnished, if it were practicable for the people bringing these charges, as they were developed yesterday, to outline just exactly what the charges are, both as to neglect, as I understand it, of the McDowell Indian, and as to whether this change in their irriga- tion work is for their best interests or not ; giving, as to the latter, the reasons why. It would help us to. state expressively and succinctly our own views in the matter. Of course there is a great deal of the question of judgment, whether this is wise, entering into this thing, after all, the facts are ascertained, and I sincerely hope the com- mittee, as to the questions of fact, will call Mr. Code. - The Chairman. I think Mr. Code will be asked to give his testi- ' mony before we giet through with the examination, .and so far as any ' so-called specifications are concerned, I take it that- all the parties supposed to know about these matters will be on the witness stand, ^ and what they have to say will become a part of the record. Mr. Valentine. I did not mean for a moment to indicate that I had intended any suggestion as to how this committee should get at its information, because that would be an impertinence on my part; but I simply meant that in a. similar ease, administratively, if I were trying to make up my own mind as to whether any particular act or action were necessary for the best interests of the Indians, I would have a statement on the opposite sides of the reasons for and against, in order to come to my conclusion. The Chairman. I think the committee would not be willing, to assume there are opposite sides. They are just going on to find out, in the best way they may, all about it, regardless of sides ; and any one who feels that he is interested will have a chance for a hear- ing. I would not- like to look at it from the point of vibaa' of sides. I do not think the. committee means to do that. Mr. Valentine*. I assume, Mr. Chairman, that the purpose of this committee-— I have to make some assumption of that kind in order to try to comply with the wishes of the committee intelligently — is to ascertain whether these Indians have been neglected, and whether it is for their best interests to do their irrigation work on the Salt Eiver and not in the Camp McDowell Reservation, and whether or not, as has been implied frequently throughout the record, there is any purpose to get them to take these allotments and then induce them to follow the allotments by living there and then to take the reservation away from them and exploit it for somebody's personal benefit. That is all I meant by the question of " sides." Mr. Latimer. Mr. Chairman, I do not understand for a moment that I have been put in any position here of making out any " case." As I understand the fact, I have had the time to look into some of the Indian Commissioner's files in the hands of the committee, and it is simply a desire to bring out facts as matters develop, and perhaps I would have been able to help matters if I could find out some of these facts and present them. It is the usual understanding in all matters of this kind that if anything is left out or is wrong, the other side has every opportunity in the world to put it in. ' 274 EXPENDITtTEES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. The Chairman. The Chair understands that you are here repre- senting what you conceive to be the best interests of the Indians, and I take it the committee looks upon you in that regard as in a sense a partisan of the Indians. But tte committee, I think, and the Chair, I know, will take no sides in the matter, but expect you to present as best you can such testimony as you think will lead the com- mittee to believe that some certain line of policy would redound to the good of the Indians. If the Commissioner of Indian Affairs dis- agrees with you about that, I suppose he will see to it that the record contains his views as strongly as he can put them forth. However, I think the committee is not taking sides with either view, but is going to abide the event, and from all the evidence reach such con- clusion as the evidence will justify. Mr. Latimer. That is my understanding of the situation, Mr. Chairman. I would like one thing to appear very distinctly, and that is that I am not in the employ of any Indian tribe or any reser- vation Indian or in any way, shape, manner, or form have I ever received a dollar from them, and I have no arrangement of any kind of such nature. The Chairman. The committee is assuming, however, that what- ever their views are, you are going to see to it that the evidence sup- porting those views will be presented; and, to be perfectly frank with you, the committee is looking upon you as simply a convenience to help them out and do work that they have not time to do them- selves. Mr. Latimer. That is what I understood, too. Mr. Henslbt. The chairman's statement just made covers entirely your views, does it not, Mr. Valentine, in giving you every oppor- tunity to present whatever proof you have in support of your views? Mr. Valentine. I would not want to exactly raise the question as to whether I am being afforded every opportunity to state the side of the office, because I am only too glad to be here at the instance of the committee. A subpoena was not necessary to bring me here. I would have come anyway. I am only too glad to give the committee everything that I can in the way of help. But yesterday, on the fifth or sixth hearing, it developed that there was a specific charge against the Indian Office in this matter, or several specific charges. I could not help feeling that I have been placed in a position where I was not able to put forward the views of the office in the fairest and squarest time. The Chairman. You will have plenty of time from now on. Mr. Valentine. But I think it is well known there is a little psy^ chology in all these things. Here is a voluminous record being de- veloped, wherein I have been in the position not of a person before a grand jury, because, as I understand it, the accused does not appear before the grand jury, but in the position of a person appearing be- fore his judges and testifying without knowing not only what the charges were against him, but under a statement, as I understood it, that there were no charges. Now, as the chairman was good enough to say yesterday, or to admit, that I am of age, I feel it would be helpful to finding out what I assume is the intention of all of us, what is the best interest of the McDowell Indians, if the gentleman now questioning me would state succinctly and clearly wherein he feels BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTBRIOB DEPARTMENT. 275 the department has either administratively erred or has been false to its trust. Mr. Latimer. I am assuming that this committee, Mr. Chairman, does not care one way or another about what my opinion is on this matter. The Chairman. That is true, I think. Mr. Latimer. I do not know that my opinion cuts any figure, but as I understand the scope of this committee, they have a right to investigate the Indian Office without any specific charges being made against it, and I do not feel for a moment that I should be considered as trying in the least degree to intimate to this committee or any member of this committee that I have any opinion that I want them to follow or by which I want them to be influenced. I have presumed that if I did they would consider I was " butting in " where it was none of my business. Mr. George. I think that explanation may have come from a ques- tion of mine. I asked Mr. Latimer to state briefly why he was .in- troducing all these papers from the files, and to what purpose these quotations were being made. It was certainly helpful to me to know what was in his mind in respect to these particular papers. I think I have come to this committee work without prejudice— cer- tainly, in your case, Mr. Commissioner— and I think the committee, so far as I know, have been opened-minded about this matter. It is our duty to make examination of all the matters of the Interior De- partment that we can. Therefore, it appears to me that this matter has been going on very faithfully on your part and on our part. It has been very helpful to me to have these questions. I am quite in the dark about the whole matter myself, and I quite agree with the manner in which the chairman has stated this case. Mr. Catlin. Mr. Valentine, do I get your point, that you do not feel in this hearing, so far as the policy of the department is con- cerned, that you have been sufficiently able to state what the policy of the department has been in connection with the Indians ? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Catlin, I think things are getting into quite a wrong perspective — I will put it that way— so far as the actual facts in any given case go. If the chairman of the committee or any- one else should say to me at any time during the hearing, "Mr. Valentine, in the light of such evidence as is developed, don't you feel that the department has made a mistake ? " I assure the com- mittee — and I hope I may have a chance to give proof of that by my actions — ^that I would admit it frankly. It has been one of my policies — I have found plenty of mistakes which the Indian Office has made — and it has been my policy, sometimes to the horror of the administration many years ago on the part of my subordinates, to admit in the letters that the office fell down and now wants to go ahead. If at any time in this hearing it seems to me the deijartment has been mistaken in its policy toward the McDowell Indians, I will admit it frankly and freely. So much for mistakes. If, however, it is a question, as is more or less apparent here and there by the remarks of the examiner, that there is some deep plot, and that there is something to this cry of " Stop thief," which was brought out in one of the letters yesterday, then I think it would be a little more American if the people appearing before the com- mittee were charged, as we all know we would always charge our .;2'76 EXPEN-BITURBS I;N THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. , subordinates, before pitting them on trial. -for -wrongdoing, and ^% them a chance to know what they are charged with. In other words, it is not at all clear to me' at this stage whether the difference be- tween a question of policy and a mistake and a question of wpoijg- doing is being kept clear enough to make the record really valuable, and I do not care myself to raise any question in that connectioii, except in so far as I can supply the committee quickly and reason- ably with what they want in the way of information. Mr. Geoege, It would seem to me to be the business of ttie com- mittee to judge whether or not the record is a valuable one, inasmuch as they are making the investigation; and I do not understand that there is any policy on the part of the committee to restrain you from giving information when the time shall come. For one, 1 shall do all in my power to bring it out. The Chaieman. Do any of the other gentlemen wish to be hearcl? If not, you may proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Examine this file of papers, Mr. Vaientine, and state whether or not it is a file of your oiSice. Mr. Valentine. It so appears, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. I offer a letter of March 7, 1911, addressed to Mi. Charles E. Coe, superintendent Camp McDowell Indians, McDowell, Ariz., and signed John Francis, jr.. Chief Land Divisioi]„ reading as follows: Mabch 7, 1911. Mr. Charles E, Coe, Superintendent Gamp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. SiK : The Inclosed letter Is transmitted to you for Investigation and repoJt, It is not altogether Clear exactly what the writer refers to or eomplalas of and It is requested that you interview hha with a view of advising the Office more fully of the nature of his complaint. Return the inclosed letter with your report. Respectfully, John Fbancis, Jr., Chief LanO, DiDtsion. Mr. Valentine. I also offer in evidence a letter in lead pencil, bearing receiving stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, of date Feb- ruary 24, 1911, file No. 16280, dated Wickenburg, Ariz., February 18, 1911, signed by Yuma Mike, consisting of three sheets and read- ing as follows: Wickenburg, Abiz., FeJtruary 18, ISU. Dear Sib: I had 20 acres and my wife and children had 30 acres of land Sit McDowell Reservation three years ago. Agent Bear took the land aWay from me and gave it to Mike Nelson ; and told me I would liave to go to the Salt River Reservation and live with mixed Indian tribes. So I went out and worked for my living with the white folks. T want my land baokftbat belongs to me at McDowell, among my own people. Mr. Coe wants me Salt River with the mixed tribes at Salt River Reservation, and I dou't want to go there, and I wish you would help me to get my land back at McDowell. I did never told Mr. Coe that I want to go and get land under the Arizona Canal. Mr. Coe told me allotting agent say his gone to move all the Indians down to Salt River; but nobody's down there yet Mr. Bear send me out from McDowell Reservation. He told me get away from this place; -and I came , away and look around at Wickenburg. This is the second time they told tie get away from McDowell. This two superintendents, Mr. Bear and Mr. Charles E. Coe. This is all for to-day, so good-bye ; from Yuma MIKe, Wickenhurg, Ari^- Hoping to h«ar from =you soon. EXPENDITTIRES IN THE IHTBBIOK DEPABTMENT. 27'7 , Mr. Latimer. I also offer in evidence a. letter from the Camp McDowell Agency, Scottsdale, Ariz., dated March 14, 1911, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, "Washington, D. C, and bear- ing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Received March 20, 1911," file No. 24351, and signed by Charles E. Coe, superintendent, and reading as follows : Department of the Interior, United. States Indian SebVice, Oamp McDowell Agency, Scottsdale, Ariz., March H, 1911. ■Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. Sib: I have received the inclosed letter of one Yuma Mike, on which yotir office asks for a report. It Is impossible to interview this Indian without a long and expensive trip, as he is living at Wickenburg. Ariz., about 90 miles from this agency. I understood Yuma Mike to tell me last summer that he would like to have some land under the Arizona Canal, where he could farm without having to work on the ditch all the time, as the Indians do at McDowell. I therefore notified him on February 11, 1911, that some of the McDowell Indians were making selections on the Salt River Reservation, under the Arizona Canal, and advised him to come and select land for himself and family, but it seems that he has changed his mind, as he wrote me a letter similar to the one received by youT office, saying he did not want to live with " mixed tribes," etc. The other McDowell Indians tell me that Yuma Mike is a very quarrelsome man and always causes trouble on the reservation when he is there. I am unable to say whether Mr. Bear ordered him to leave the reservation. Last season Yuma Mike returned to the Camp McDowell Reservation and attempted to farm with his stepson, Mike Nelson. He soon got into a quarrel with him, and the case had to be settled by the Indian court and myself divid- ing the standing crop (corn). As soon as Yuma Mike gathered his share of the crop he left the reservation, not because he was ordered to do so, but because the Indian court's decision did not suit him. He has since been living at Wickenburg, Ariz. Yuma Mike is on the rolls at Camp McDowell, and the allotting agent will doubtless give the same treatment in regard to an allotment that he does to the other Indians. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Mr. Latimek. I also offer a letter, dated March 29, 1911, addressed to Mr. Yuma Mike, Wickenburg, Ariz., and signed by C. F. Hauke, second assistant commissioner, and reading as follows : Mr. Yuma Mike, Wickenburg, Ariz. Sib: Referring to your letter of February 18, regarding your Indian rights, you are informed that the office is in receipt of a communication from the super- intendent of the Camp McDowell Reservation, wherein it is said you are a member of the tribe within that reservation. Of course you are entitled to the same benefits given all other members of ■ this band, and it is suggested that you take up this matter with the superintend- ent in charge of the Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., who will fully advise you in the premises. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. Mr. Latimee. Mr. Valentine, in the letter of March 14, 1911, which I have just read, addressed, to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and signed by Mr. Coe, I desire to call your particular attention to this statement: Yuma Mike is on the rolls at Camp McDowell and the allotting agent will doubtless give the same treatment in regard to an allotment that he does to the other Indians. 278 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR" DEPSETMENX. — T" Considering your answers to the previous questions in reference to a roll, will you kindly state what Mr. Coe probably means in his reference there to a roll? Mr. Valentine. He probably means the census rolls. Mr. Latimer. You know of no other rolls outside of the census rolls to which Mr. Coe might refer? Mr. Valentine. I do not. ^ Mr. Latimer. I now offer a letter dated Salt Kiver Indian Eeserva- tion, Scottsdale, Ariz., January 6, 1911, addressed to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed by Charles E. Koblin, special allotting agent. I will ask you, Mr. Valentine, if those are files of your office? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimeb. The letter just referred to reads as follows : Depaetment of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Sai,t River Indian Keservation, Scottsdale, Ariz., January 6, 1911. Honorable Commissioner of Indian Aftaibs, Washington, D. C. Sir : I arrived on the Salt River Reservation on December 5, 1910, and found thiit the land office surveyors had not yet done any field work. They moved onto the reservation that day and commenced field work on December 6. It was found that the old survey, made some years ago, was very erroneous. For instance, one township boundary reported as 4T9.26 chains in length was found, upon most careful and accurate chaining, to be over 482 chains in length. The Indian farms and lanes had been laid out on the old lines in part of the reserva- tion. Mr. Farmer, the surveyor in charge, and I went very carefully over the ground to plan the surveying so as to preserve to the Indians as many of their lines and roads as possible. One road in particular on a township line, which has been graded and improved by the Indians at an expense of several hundreds of dollars in labor, we were anxious to save. In order to do so it was necessary to run two auxiliary base lines and to " close " on the road. This method has been approved by the General Land Oflice. It was not possible to save many of the " cross " roads, however. In conse- quence the allotment of the lands by legal subdivisions necessitates a great deal of readjustment of " lines " or farm boundaries. This is causing some friction with the Indians, but I am succeeding fairly well with the work. There seems to be, however, a strong feeling of opposition to having the lands allotted. As soon as the work of surveying the reservation had progressed so far that there were lands ready for allotment and I had sufficient information to enable me to explain the matter to the Indians, I called a meeting or " council " at which several hundred Indians were present. I explained the contemplated system of allotment at great length, drawing diagrams on the ground showing the system of surveying the lands, the method of marking corners, and the best methods of subdividing the lands among the members of the families, etc. The Indians asked many questions, which I answered as well as I could. The head " chief " then advised his people to go home and think over what I had told them, and that the chiefs would have a meeting and let them know what to do. I told them that I would commence field work the next day. I did so and succeeded in making only five allotments. I then found some Indians who were under the influence of the chiefs, and they refused to show me their lands or to take allotments. All in that district then refused to take allotments "until the chiefs were ready." However, I have kept quietly at work, making allotments to all who have asked for them, and to others here and there, so that I have made irrigable allotments to 171 persons to date. And in driving over the reservation I haye gathered a great deal of information about the location of the different families and have located many of their " lines," so that the work will be much easier when I have persuaded them to take their allotments. The Indians, by previous arrangement, came to me to-day for the purpose of getting more information about allotments and about water rights. I was able to satisfy them as to the advantage to be derived from allotment, but they c^n not understand why their water right should be limited. They want an assurance of a supply of water for all the '26 acres of their allotments. This, of course, I can not give them. However, the majority of those present to-day seemed to be reasonable men, and I believe they wiU taUe their aHot- ments without further trouble. The number of tbosp making strong objections is small, and I hope to make better progress than I have iuade. The work will necessarily be slow, however. The allotments are small, and it is a matter of great importance that the Indians understand exactly where their lines are. It frequently takes from one to two hours to allot from 20 to '40 acres. The In(iiana first have to be persuaded to take their allotments and then must be shown their lines very carefully. Respectfully, Chas. E. Roblin, Special All(?tting Agent, Mr. Latimer. I now offer an answer to the letters above quoted, dated January 17, 1911, addressed to Mr. Charles E. Eoblin, special allotting agent, Scottsda,le, Ariz-? and signed C. F. Hauke, secon,4 assistant commissioner, reading as follows: Mr. Phaelejs E. Roblin, /^ecioif Atiottin^ Aff.^V't' ^eotts^ule, Ari^. Sjb : The office is glad to itpte frppi your letter of January 6, 1911, that satis- factory progress is being made in the aUotmemt work on Salt River Reservation, Arl^. I^esjppctfyilly, C. F- P4nKE, Seconcli ASfSistant ComiOiissioner. Mr. J^atim;ee. I now offer a letter dated September. 14, 19,09, from Gl<^quet, Minn., addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C., signed A. F. Bear, bearing the stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Received September 17, 1909 ; file No, 74620." P>pes this letter, Mr. Valent'ine, come, froni your o:^ce ? . Mr. YaijEntin?!. Yeis,, sir. Mr. Latimer. The letter just referred to reads as follows: DESPABTMSaSTT OF T^B INTEBIOB, IJisnTEaj States Indian Service, Glo.quet, Mirm., Septiemher. xi, 19fi9i The CoMMissioNEB OP Indian Affaibs, Washington, D. G. ^lE : Replying to your favo;r of thp 9th instant, I ha.ve the honor to state that the wheat fleld^ shown in the snaps^iots sent you, although sown under ^my direction while ^cting in the positioil of farmer at McDowell, represent thfe unaided work of th? Indians, with the exception of the irrigation canals, in which the Government assisted by payment of a npminai daily wage, in repair- ing damage to cabals by flppd. The total acre^age of wheat and barley for tlje fiscal year 1909 waf ab.pijt 150 acres, thp snapshots, however, representing t|ie very bfest flplds. Digressing," I should say that, in ifly opinion, these Indian^, with proper en- couragement and protection from themselves along the line of intoxicant^, \)i^ fair within a few years to become practically self-suppprting. I shallbe glad to furnish any infornjation at my command relative to the McDowell In(Jians. Very respectfully, A. P. Beab. Mr. Latimer. I now offer a letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., September 5, 1910, addr^ged to the Com- missioner of Indian Affair^, Wa^hingtpiij D. C.,, an4 signed Charles E, Qoe, superintendent; aJ^o a letter datW October 19, 1910, ad- dressed to Mr. Charles E, Coe, superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz.j and signed C. F. Hauke, Second A^|i^ant (j/ommissioner. 8824G-T^No. 7—11 -3 280 EXPEKDITUKBS IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. Will you examine those letters, Mr. Valentine, and state whether or not they are from your office? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; they are. Mr. Latimer. The letters just referred to are as follows: Depabtment of the Intebiob, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School. McDowell, Arte., September 5, 1910. Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affaibs, Washington, D. C. Sib: I have just returned from a conference with Supervisor Carl Gunderson, on the Salt River Keservation, in regard to allotting the Indian lands there. Those Indians are, I beleve, further advanced than any Indians in Arizona and; are ready for allotments. Mr. Gunderson thinks the Salt River Reservation' should be allotted before taking up that work on the Pima Agiency. If there' are funds available, he thinks he can have an allotting force at work about- October 1, 1910. The Salt River Reservation contains 46,720 acres. There will probably be about 1,050 Indian^ to allot. These Indans are progressing nicely and are farming well. Their allotments should be made as large as possible. I recom- mend that they be allotted 10 acres apiece for farming purposes. They have been decreed sufficient water to irrigate 5 acres, and the additional 5 acres will- permit them to rotate their crops, and later, if they wish to farm larger areas, they can purchase the water to do so. We will probably have to allot the 5 acres with water first and add the other 5 acres afterwards. The details, however, should be left to the allotting agent and the superintendent to be worked out on the ground. After the farming land has been allotted, I think each Indian should be allotted 10 acres for grazing land. This makes a total of 20 acres and amounts to less than half the reservation. I think they are, Mititled to that much, and very strongly recommend that it be allotted to them. The supervisor thinks the field work of allotting this reservation will be comparatively low, probably about $8,000. Will there be any funds available to do this work at this time? Fov marking the allotments a modified form of the gas-pipe stakes, such as are used in the aUotting work in the North, should be supplied. We recom- mend a plain IJ-inch pipe, flanged at the bottom, but without the brass capis and the cement filling. A great many of the stakes will be set in roads where the travel will quickly ruin the caps. A considerable saving both in the cost and in the freight can be effected by filling the stakes with cement after we get them on the ground. About 4,000 of these stakes will be needed for the reservation, one-third of them (for roads) should be 2 feet long the remainder S feet long. The descriptions of the land will be stamped in the side of the stakes at the top. For that purpose three sets of steel dies will be necessary, con- taining letters and figures for describing the allotments. If the Indians under the superintendent at Sacaton are to be allotted immediately after those at Salt River, a further saving in freight can be effected by sending a carload of stakes to Casa Grande, Ariz., from which point we can haul the number needed for Salt River Reservation, while the balance can be sent to Sacaton. I there- fore recommend that your office purchase the needed stakes and steel dies and ship them to me. The question of the Pima Indians residing on sections 1 and 2 in regard to allotments, I take up In a separate letter. Very respectfully, Charles E. Poe, Superintendent. Mr. Charles E. Coe, Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sib : The office has received your letter of September 5, 1910, regarding allot- ments to Indians on the Salt River Reservation. The Commissioner of the General Land Office has been requested to survey and subdivide the lands within the Salt River, Gila River, and Camp McDowell Reservations. This work will be done, the office is advised informally, during the coming winter, and it is probable that an alloting agent, will be detailed to the work on these reservations sometime during the coming winter season. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 281 As the allotlng agent will not be able to make any allotments in severalty until at least a part of these reservations have been surveyed under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office, it may not prove advisable to place a man in charge of this work there until after the land office has made some progress with the field work connected with the surveys. The question of furnishing stakes for marking these allotments has been taken up previously with Supervisor Gunderson. On receipt of a report from that officer the matter will be given further attention. Very respectfully, 0. F. Haukb, Second Assistant Gom/rmssioner. Mr. Latimer. Have you any information, Mr. Valentine, as to the cost to the Government per acre of installing the ditches on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge in my head at the present moment. I could get it for you. Mr. Latimer. You testified yesterday in reference to there being, a charge of $15 an acre for something in reference to those lands. Do you recall what that was? Mr. Valentine. No; the gentleman's memory is a little defective. I said that was our average cost throughout the TJnited States for our reclamation work. Mr. George. Was it $15 or $17? Mr. Valentine. The total charge was $17, $15 of which was for. construction, and I said I thought $2 went for maintenance, but Mr. Mpndell questioned my maintenance figures, and I find I am too high on that figure. The Indian Service ranges from 25 cents to $2, the average being, perhaps, a little over a dollar. Mr. George. In his State of Montana it was 41 cents. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. When did you ascertain that — since yesterday's meeting ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Did you ascertain anything further in reference to your construction? Mr. Valentine. I am speaking of the whole service. . I take it I am correct. Mr. Latimer. I understood you to state you had looked up the. question of maintenance. I believe average maintenance is the ques- tion Mr. Mondell asked you. Mr. Valentine. Yes ; but I did not look up the question of con- struction. Mr. Latimer. I will ask you to examine this file and say whether or not it is from your office. Mr. Valentine. It appears to be, sir. Mr. Latimer. I now offer in evidence a letter dated Camp Mc- Dowell Indians, McDowell, Ariz., September 5, 1910, addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Charles E. Coe,. superintendent, and reading as follows: Dbpaktment op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, ; MeRowell, Arte., Septemher 5, 1910. Hon. Commissioner or Indian Atpaies, .■ ; ' Wnshinffton, D. G: Sir : In connection with the allotment of the Indians on the Salt River Keser- vation, there comes up the question of what to do with about 85 Indians living 282 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBRIGE DEPAETMENT. on sections 1 and 12, range 4 east, township 1 north. Those Pima Indians claim that they are the first Indians to settle in the Salt River Valley and that they have been living on and farming the same land for about 40 years. I have not been supplied with all the data and records bearing on the case, but from what I can learn it seems that there was an error in pointing out tie boundary to the Indians, and they improved the lands in good faith, thinking they were on the reservation. About the year 1900, or 25 or 30 years after tfr^ Indians settled on the land, some white settlers filed on some of the land- in these two sections and tried to have the Indians removed. After an investiga- tion it was decided that the Indians had a prior right to the land, and the set- tlers' filings were canceled. The lands were withdrawn from public entry; for the purpose of allowing the Indians to homestead tliem. These Indians can not afford to do that, as by so doing they would be put upon the same basis as other water users. They could not obtain any water from the reservation apd would have to pay their pro rata, share of thp cost' of tie Hoosevelt Dam, etc. This is estimated to be about $45 per acre. In other words, it means that they would get the land with a heavy mortgage on every acre, while their friends and neighbors will have adjoining lands with free water and without any incumbrance on it. These people have lived on the land 60 long that it would be a great injustice to require them to remove to other and uniniproyed lands, As a solution, I would recommend that sections 1 and 12 be added to and made a part of the Salt River Reservation. The land they are farming tas been listed with the water-users' association, and if it were a part of the leser- vation I believe there could be no legal objection to supplying it with water. This plan will perhaps require an Executive order, but it seems to be the logicai solution to the question. Very respectfully, Chables E. Coe, Superintendent. Mr. Hensley. Mr. Coe is there taking the positioji o| not f a,yoEiM the changing of these Indians ? Mr. Latimer. No; this refers to the location at Pima.. If you care for my idea of the letter, Mr. Hensley, which I believe is yery plain, the fact is that in the reservation the GovernDgifint will pay for water. This is just outside of the reservation, where the Indians would have a mortgage on the land. It i,s open for the Indian i)e- p^rtnient to say wt^^ther this parti,cul^r section C03t more tb^n some other sections per acre, but it simply tends to enlighten us- The Chair]\i;an. We will avoid comm^^ts on the letters at iiaa time. Mr. L/^TiMEE. I offer now a letter from W- |I. Coije, chi^f engineer, da,ted United State^ Indian Seryice, 522 Bnmiller Building, Los Angeles, Cal., July 28, 1909, to the Secretary of the Interior, Wash- ington, D. C., and bearing the stamp of the Office of Inclian Aflatrs " Eeceived October 14, 1909, File No. 79152," consisting of ninis pages, and signed in typeyrriting by W. H. Code, pres,iunably ^. H. Code, chief engineer. Is that letter, Mr. Valentine, in that file, a part of yaur office files? Mr. Valentine. It so appews, sir. Department of the Interios, United States Indian Sebvicb, 522 BUMILLEB BlJltDINp, Los Angeles, Cat, July 88, 1909. The Secretaey of t^b Intbbioe, Washington, D. 0, Sib : On February 19, 1909, I addressed a letter to the department concerning certain repair work needed on the small ditches of the Fort McDowell Reser- vation. The unsatisfactory conditions with reference to maintaining these temporary ditches w^re pointed out and the reasons given why it would be imprf^ctio^Ws to attempt expensive permanent works at this point. EXPENDITTJBBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 283 As Is known by the department, the McDowell Reservation in Arizona is but ft few miles north of tKe area embraced within the boundaries of tbe Salt River reclamation project. (See map attached.)^ tt has been ray belief for some yeavs that the proper solution of the "water problem at >icDow6ll would be to move such Mojave Apache Indians as can be induced to farm to a tract of land on the adjoining Salt River Valley Indian Reservation, in order that they might also obtain the benefits of Government reclamation. In this connection I (juote from my report of February 19, 1909 : "As has been previously stated, the water rights of the Salt River Valley are now in process of adjudication, and we have presented the data in connec- tion with the rights of the Indians in the aiijolning McDowell Reservation. As soon as, the decision is rendered I shall make a recommendation that the water which IS apportioned to this respK?a*ibn be transferred" to a certain area of land on the neighboring Salt iRlvel: Valley Reservation under the large Gov- ernment canal. Also that Supt. Goodman be authorized to sign up with the water users' association for the area of land which it is proper to sign up for, depending on the adjudication. This will allow a little tract of land for each Apache Indian who wants to farni, and the McDowell Reservation will be very valuable back country for them to retain for grazing purposes and wood supply. This little band of Apaches would then be enjoying tbe benefit of the Govern- ment work in the Salt River Vall^ aM in common with the white settlers be called upon to pay the acreage reclamation charge in 10 annual payments after completion of the project. " The Salt River Reservation, comprising some 47,000 acres, belongs to the Pima and Maricopa Indians. Only about 10,000 acres, located under the Ari- zona main canal, are irrigable, and of this area but 3,000 acres are " signed up " under the reclamation project. " The reason for this is that the iPima and Maricopa Indians had never farmed an area greater than 2,500 acres on the reservation, hence we could not sign up for a much larger area as being entitled to a portion of the normal flow of the Salt River. " The question arisen, Can the department arrange matters with the Pima and Maricopa Indians so that the Apache Indians may have an area of from 640 to 1,000 acres of this desert land?" The Indian Ofiice submitted my suggestions to both Supts. Goodman and Alexander for their comments. , ^hey both approve the plan in the main, but bring up points which the office desires me to express an opinion upon. ' Supt. Goodman, in a letter dated March 16, 1909, asks as follows : " But if these Indians utilize only the amount of water awarded them by the court, why should their land be " signed up " under the Tonto Reservoir and they be compelled to pay and share in the cost of the same? Or if their lands are signed up and they do pay their pro rata share of the cost of construction of reservoir and canal system, would they not be entitled to a share of the stored water in addition to their interest in the normal flow of the river? " As regards Supt. Goodman's views, I do not see why the Apache Indian should escape paying for his proportion of the reclamation cost any more than any other water user. The United States is paying out millions of dollars to construct reservoirs, permanent concrete diversion dams, main canals, etc., in order that the water user may have the means of getting to his land not only such amount of the normal supply of the river which his lands are entitled to receive, but surplus or stored water sufficient for the economical needs of the land. - Thousands of acres in the Salt River Valley are in the same position as the Indian lands on reservations; i. e., entitled to a certain proportion of the low- water flow of Salt River. The settlers owning such lands, however, have pledged them to the Govern- ment in order that the task of constructing the large works aforesaid should be undertaken for them. It would not be right for a white settler to obtain the advantages of the -Government's expenditure without paying his annual assessments ; and simi- larly the Mojave Apache Indians can claim no right in the Salt River project unless the reclamation charge is met. The combined low-water flow of the Salt and A^erde Rivers is so small, in comparison to the needs of the settlers having rights in such flow, that i-t has 1 Not printed. •284 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE fkl^EBIOB;' BEPAB.TMENT. been necessary in the past to use the said flow chiefly upon the more Taluatle crop of fruit, melons, oranges, etc., and the lands have never had fall op- portunlty to produce maximum crops as a result of the irregular supply. ^ I see no reason, therefore, why the Indians whose lands are signed up- under this project, be they Maricopa, Pima, or Apache, should not be assessed the same acreage charge as the white lands, and receive similar and equal benefits. With reference to the point raised by Supt. Alexander, concerning the steps necessary in his opinion to effect the transfer of Indian water rights from the Fort McDowell to the Salt River Reservation, I have in the past conferred with former Gov. Kibbey, attorney for the Water Users Association of the Salt River Valley, and to-day conferred with Chief Justice Kent, who will probably by fall make the adjudication of the water rights under the Salt River project and also determine the rights of the Indians at Fort McDowell. Judge Kibbey states that in his opinion there will be no difficulty experienced with the board of governors in bringing about the transfer suggested by me. ' Judge Kent states that as a general proposition he could not indorse the policy of Allowing water rights which attach to a certain area of land to be subsequently transferred to other lands. At the same time he appreciates the many advantages of allowing such an exchange in this particular instance. Bte insists, however, that if the Government decides to malie this exchange, it be done prior to the handing down of his decision this fall. While he manifestly could not give me any definite assurance as to the area of lands which would be decreed rights in the Verde River, should the Indians continue to remain at Fort McDowell, he stated that in his opinion he might be able to decree them between 200 and 250 inches, sufficient for the irrigation of from 800 to 1,000 acres of land. In event that the Government should surrender its claims to water at Fort McDowell in entirety, he would probably simply add a certain amount of water to the present apportionment of the Indians on the Salt River Reservation. By previous arrangement the Indians on this reservation have been decreed 500 inches of water. The judge thought that in event of the exehaage being made as suggested, he might decree 700 or 750 inches to the Salt River Reservation. In this event it would then be within the province of the Indian Office to signify to the water commissioner with respect to the divisions of this water between the present Maricopa settlement and the proposed Apache settlement. I suggest that Supt. Alexander be directed to confer with Judge Kent and the board of governors of the Salt River reclamation project, and that he be subsequently authorized to sign up with the water users' association for a tract not exceeding 1,280 acres on tine Salt River Reservation, and respectfully suggest that the lands be selected in sections 19. 20, 21, and 22, T. 2 N., K. 6 E. With reference to the rights of the Mojave Apache Indians, if the judge decrees them 200 or 250 inches of water, they will, in my opinion, be fairly treated. With reference as to who should finally exercise superivision of the Salt River Reservation, I had previously suggested, in event of the contemplated transfer, that a superintendent be placed in charge of the Salt River, Lehi, and Apache settlements. Supt. Alexander believes he can handle the same, and after a recent personal investigation of conditions on the Salt River Res- ervation I have no doubt of his ability to do so. The Indians on this reserva- tion were in a prosperous condition, with most excellent grain crops almost ready to harvest at the time of my visit. Supt. Alexander doubts the wisdom of allowing the Fort McDowell Reservation to remain- the .property of the Indians, as suggested by me, in event of their being moved to the Salt River Reservation, but suggests that the reservation be retained by the Gov- ernment for two or three years and then be returned to the public domain. In my opinion it should be held, for a considerable time at least, for the In- dians. The Apaches will not all be farmers, and the Port McDowell Reserva- tion would probably continue to be home for a number of them. The proper time for throwing open the Fort McDowell Reservation is, how- ever, a problem for future consideration. With reference to the size of allotments on the Salt River and Lehl Eeser vations, this is a matter to be carefuUy considered. Supt. Alexander suggests from 6 to 10 acres to the Indian, or from 15 to 40 acres per family. He states, however, that a close estimate of the land cultivated on these reservations on October 1, 1904, showed an average of only lOJ acres farmed per family. It Is my opinion that the Government will be doing all that is fair with lie Pima and Maricopa Indians if It furnishes each Indian with water for 5 acres EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 285 of, land. This is all that he needs in a country where the growing season is throughout practically 12 months of the year. The reclamation charge will prohably amount to $40 per acre for all lands signed up under the Salt Elver project and the , present area subscribed for, i. e., 3,900 acres will probably require that the Indian irrigation fund be drawn upon to the extent of approxi- mately $150,000, in 10 annual payments. If the Apaches are locai.ed on the Salt River Reservation, and an additional area of approximately 1,200 acres is signed up in the Salt River project, the irrigation fund will be drawn upon to the extent of an additional $50,000. The cost of , reclamation by the installation of pumping plants on the Gila River Reservation proper, where the great majority of the Indians reside, will probably be over $50 per acre. In view, therefore of the large number of In- dians interested and the heavy cost of supplying water to them, as above shown, It would be unwise to promise them water for a larger area than they can farm. This is a matter to be carefully considered by the agent who shall subse- Quen ly be detailed to allot the Pima and Afarieopa Indians. If the Indians .want more land, there is plenty of it. It is not a question of land, but water. In this instance. Owing to the great cost of obtaining the latter, it has been my opinion in the past that an average of 10 acres per family would probably be as much as the Government could afford to guarantee water for. Five acres with water to each Indian would therefore, in my opinion, be liberal treat- ment. With reference to signing up for still additional land on the Salt River Res- ervation to the extent of 1,000 acres for Pimas and Maricopas, as suggested by Superintendent .Alexander, I see no objection to it aside from the fact that this land would only be entitled to stored water. fn signing up for 3,000, acres, already subscribed for on this reservation, we have as large an area of land as the 500 inches of water which will probably be decreed these Indians could be made to spread over. At the same time many thousands of acres of desert lands belonging to whites, which have no claim on the low-water flow of Salt River, have been signed up, the owners being willing to take their chances with stored water. If, therefore, the department is willing to assume an additional obligation of approximately $40,000 over and above that already contracted for and herein recommended, it would unquestionably be to the advantage of the Pima and Maricopa Indians. I respectfully suggest again, in closing, that the matter of the proposed trans- fer of the Mojave Apache Indians be referred to Supt. Alexander at an early 4ate, for reasons stated herein. Very respectfully, W. H. Code, Chief Engineer. Mr. Latimer. I now offer in evidence a letter dated August 2, 1909, bearing a stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Eeceived August 3,- 1909, file No. 62086," addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and reading as follows : Depaetment of the Intebioe, Washington, August, 2, 1909. The Commissioner of Indian Aefaibs. ., Sir-: I inclose herewith report of Chief Engineer Code relative to repair work on irrigation ditches on the Fort McDowell Indian Reservation, Ariz. Please give same prompt consideration. Very respectfully, Frank Pierce, Acting Secretary. I now offer letter dated August 13, 1909, addressed to W. H. Code, Chief Engineer, Los Angeles, Cal., and signed F. H. Abbott, Acting Commissioner, and reading as follows : August 13, 1909. W. H. Code, Esq., Chief Engineer, 522 Bumiller Building, Los Angeles, Cal. Sir : On this day the office has submitted to Supt. Alexander, at Pima Reser- vation, a copy of your letter of July 28, 1909, on the question of the relocation of the Mojave Apaches, under the Salt River irrigation project. 2 §6 EXPI:i&i)lTUiifes li* the lii'TfiBtoB 6fiPA:^^i(!tEN^. ^r. AliBX'd'iiAer has beeb Ja'^kM to iiak^ an early peport, aiid the ^bj^ttt Wftl be puSfiSa to a flfiai ^eterniiriatoh 'as rSpidly aB possible. Very MpifecifiiUy, , F. H. ASBdra, t now offer a letter dated August 13^ ISO®, aiddt^sS^d to J. -l. Alexander, Supetintendent Pima Ihdiaii Sdiool, Sacaton, Ariz., ahd signed J*. H. Abbott, Acting Commissioner, and ifeadiiig as folIoi^S: Atj^trST i9, 1909. 3^. B. AEl4xi.Bf»EB, ES(j., ^■uper^tenS:mt Pirrta Indian Sf^oot; Sacaton, Ariz. ^ib: There Is In'clbsed A cdfiy oi a tetter of, July 28, 1909, froM W. Bt. Ci$6, dMMiC engineer, concerning; the ttrlgktioh project oa ^alt River, in whicli hfe" suggests a relocrttion of the Mojave ApSCheS now on the Fo^t MiDowell Be^er- ^a,tipii. The office will be pleased to have a report froni you oi. tM ptbpffsal of Mr. Code at &s edrly a day as possible. Very respectfully, F. Bt. ABBdtr, AcHii0 Comi'niision&r; I now offer letter dated United States Indian Service, Pima Train- iiig S6hool, Sacaton, Ariz., December 9, 1909, addressed to tfce Coin- missioiiej: of Indian Affairs, "VVashihgfpn.j D. C-, bearing tlie stamp of the office of Indian Affairs " Eeceived December 14, 1909,'* file Not &9,5®2, and sighed by J. B. Alexander, superinte^dient^ and- r^adihg as follows : DEPAETLfENT OF THE INTEKIOK, United States Indian SiaiviCB, Pima TEAtwiNo Schooi/, Sacaton, Arte., December 9, 1909. t'He honorable the Commissioner of Indian Affaies, Washington, D. C. ^ Sir : I have the houor to report that the water appropriated by aii^ for tlie Mohave Indians of Camp McDowell will be ordered delivered to them througli the Arizona Canal for irrigation of certain land on the Salt River ReservatloiL as recommended by Chief Engineer W. H. Code in his reports above reierrM to, and that 300 inches of flood water will be given to the Pima of the Salt Eiver Reservation, in addition to the regular flow of 500 Inches they have been receiving during the imst 10 yfears. This information came from Judge Kent, unoflSclally, when he was nsljing for additional testimony regarding the cul' tivated area of the Salt River Reservation. Judge Kent also inquired if the SfcDoWell Indians had beeil removed to thfe Salt River Reservation, and said that they should settle oh thelt laMs OH Sialt River Reservation at an early date, at once if possible. The decree of 300 additional inches of water is much more than was ex- pected. One hundred inches additional was all that we hoped for, and the Indians of the Salt River Reservation should be highly commended for thiir Industry in reclaiming land, cultivating same, and making sUch a showing dhr- ing the past six years as to convince the court that they had made use bf and were entitled to additional irrigating water. In the remii\'.'i) of tlie Mohave Indians from Cami> McDowell Vo Salt River submit the following plan for your consideration : (1) The promotion of Mr. H. M. Alexander as supervisor of ditches at $1,200 per annum, payable from " Irrigation of Indian i-eservations, 1910," froin Janu- ary 1, 1910, to have charge of all matters on the Salt River and McDowell Rpservations, particularly of those pertaining to irrigation and farming; and (2) the appointment of a young man named Adams to be additional farmer at $65 per month, vice H. M. Alexander, promoted. The two men to induce the MOliave to move to their new homes and superintend the construction of cauais, farm- ing, etc. " The reason for the promotion of Mr. H. M. Alexander is that he is responsi' ble for the improved condition of the Pima Indians of the Salt River Reserva- tion, as he has kept aher them day and night during the past five years an3 has EXiPEi^tiTTjtas iisr THia iNriRibR iiiPA:^tSiEiiT. S^'if Mi^iM th^iii t6 fkr&i 'pidpeiVy arid lifee tlieit iWfgktifig icat^r ec6iIonilcally, and ok* »^ ft *m|)etfelit to follow up this Wdrk. He ciaii 4Tso conveVsift In gpaiifsh TWt]^ tHe Mcflifeve. Mr, Adams, a young man, of 25 years, knows the Mghave personally. He Sm his fatter have gF'eat influence witii tte McDowell Indians, and I aoi 'A^pitictlng Uip'oft thfs ihflu'ehce to indtfee thfe fiidiana t6 move qtitetly ahd wttl- Jkg%i Mr. AdSams is iBdutoious, of good character. &6 hUS A good fefio^ieagiS of fariDing, and has had a great deal of experience in ditcii Hoildilig teji irrj^- tion,, as well as stock raising. If Mr. Adams wUi iaccept the position,^^^ rwom- me'iid hi^ ap^'Olntment. If not, I rSCoinrhehd the .employment of his rather, JefC W. Adams, for a limited time at $5 per d^y and ei^ense^. From the tnannier of Judge Kent's speech, I judged that he thbiight mat some of the Mohave Indians should be located on their farms at the present time, h^nce the aboye .report and recommendations. Very tfefeifeetfuUy, J. B. AlexaSdeb, Superintendent. Mr. George. Mr. Valentine, was that the Alexander who was after- wards dismissed? I am asking about this, Alexander who signs this letter. Is this the Alexander who was aifterwards dismissed Jrom the department? Mr. V AiJBiisr'TiNE. He is the Alexander now under suspension under very serious charges. I have not yet actually taken final action. The report is in, and I ahi ready to aet. ■Mr. GlxjEGE. What are Siis initial-s? Jfc. Valentine. J. B. .Mr. Catlin. Whicli reservation did he have charge of? Mr. Valentine. The Pima. ^ Mr. HJENSi^Y. This is a matter I would like to know something .apoiit — that is, something apout the charges preferred: agE^inst this party of whom he speaks — if it has any connection with this matter at, jEill. I do nop know that it hs^s. Mr. George. Is thisthe plaCe for it? Mx. Hensley: I will hot insist upon it. Th'e Chairman. How far back in time do the charges against him relat«? „ . Mr. Valentine. They go back a good ways, I think, Mr. Chairman. ^r. George. That letter was written when? Mr. Latimer. That letter was written December 9, 1909. Mr. Hbns'ley. By this party? Mr. Latimer. By the J. B. Alexander who Mr. Valentine states is under suspension. Mr. Hensley. It seems to me we ought to know how he stands. Mr. George. What are those charges ? Mr. Valentine. They are charges of forgery and of maladminis- ti:ation generally ; of inaking false payments to dummy payees, and of intoxication.. Mr. C^TLiN. Who. made the charges — ^the supervisor ? _ Mr. Valentine. The charges were made by the Indian Rights Association, were investigated by me in conjunction with the Indian Eights Association, and the report is now before me for action. Mr, Latimer. The Indian^ Eights Association has nothing what- ever to do with the Indian Commissioner's office ; that is an entirely independent association ? |y[r. Valentine. Yes, sir; entirely so. Mi-. George. The forgei-y was what? 288 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR BEPABTMENT. ■ Mr. Valentine. The forgery consistedj as I recall it, in signing Indians" names to vouchers. The habit m collecting money .would be to pretend that a certain Indian, who might or might not exist, had received a certain amount of money and put the voucher through the record to look as if it had been paid . out for hauling wood oi something of the sort, and then the superintendent was alleged to have pocketed the money. Mr. Henslet. He converted the money to his own use, you say ? Mr. Valentine. That is the allegation. Mr. Hensley. You have gone into the inquiry sufficiently to deter- mine whether or not those charges are true ? Mr. Valentine. I am not prepared just yet. I hope to make that dissemination within a day or two. I have been waiting until I could get a little extra energy to look through the record pretty care- fully myself. I would not want to prejudice the case Mr. Hensley (interrupting) . You do not propose to drop the mat^ ter by dismissing him from the service? Mr. Valentine. No ; if we have such evidence as will lead to his conviction, or any kind of eviSBHce that vrould be held substantial be- fore a court, we shall go into the courts and prosecute him. Mr. George. If you had such evidence as would lead to your dis- missing him, that would be the kind of evidence that would take him into court, would it not? Mr. Valentine. That would be likely to be so ; yes. I do not want to prejudice Mr. Alexander's case at this time by passing On it finally. I mean I do not want to prejudice even his standing before the (fe- partment at present, because I have not yet actually put my fist to the verdict. Mr. George. You mean to reserve your judgment in that matter and not permit yourself to be prejudiced against him ? Mr. Valentine. I want to keep an open mind untU I take my pen in hand, as the old saying is. The Chairman. How long has he been under an official cloud? Mr. Valentine. For some months, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. In looking at this census list or roll of Indians, I find the description " stepson " and " stepdaughter " a number of times. What is that relation ? Mr. Valentine. I have no personal knowledge. I have not looked at that roll. Mr. George. It is a census roll ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. There are as many as 10 or .12 individuals desig- nated as stepsons or stepdaughters, and they usually follow the name of a husband and wife. For instance, under No. 15 and under No. 16, there is given the name of a man and his wife, with two stepsons and a stepdaughter — but stepson to whom? Stepdaughter to whom? What is the nature of that relation ? Mr. Valentine. I do not see any reason for that statement. I think it would be much more simple to»put it son or daughter of one or the other of those persons. I will ascertain if there is any reason for that nomenclature in the oifice. The Chairman. Do you know, Mr. Leupp, what that relationship is among the Indians ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKtOB DEPARTMENT. 289 - Mr. liEXjpp. It'is always the adoptionby the person who has pre- viously been unmarried or. has no children of the children of the other party who has been, formerly married^ the same as it is with us. I never ran across a case of this kind. •' Mr. (jteoege. They followed the natural tie rather than the adopted tie ? Mr. Letjpp. I should think so. I see no reason for its being otherwise. The Chairman. You may pr6ceed,TtIr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Have you a Mr. J. H. Dortch, Ghief of tl^e Educa- tion Division, in your service ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Is he the Chief of the Education Division in your own department? Mr. Vauentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. I hand you what appears to be a " Memorandum for finance," apparently signed by Mr. Dortch, without date. Will you kindly state whether or not it is signed by Mr. Dortch, and whether -there is anything there that would indicate the date on which the paper was written by him ? Mr. Valentine. I recognize Mr. Dortch's signature. Mr. Latimer. Can you give any idea as to the date or probable date from the place that it appears in the file there? Mr. Valentine. The probability is it came some time after De- cember &i 1909, and before April 13, 1910. The file is always built up in the office, the later communication coming on top, and that being at that place in the file would indicate it is simply between those dates. The Chairman. Is there any receiving date on it ? Mr. Valentine. That was an office memorandum, sir, which simply passed between divisions. Mr. Latimer. I offer the paper concerning which Mr. Valentine was just testifying, headed, " Memorandum for finance," signed by Mr. J. H. Dortch, Chief Education Division, and reading as follows : MEMOBANDTJM FOB TINANCE. It Is proposed to induce certain unallotted Mohave Apache Indians of the Fort McDowell Reservation to remove to the Salt River Reservation, Ariz., and to allot them there in order that they may be within and receive benefit from the irrigation project. Probably provision: can be made to assign about 5 acres to each Indian, and the cost for water will approximate $40 per acre. It is further recommended that the Irrigation charges be paid for the Indians in equal yearly installments covering a period of 10 years from the annual appropriations for irrigation of Indian reservations, etc. Please advise this division if the appropriations named can be used for this purpose. J. H. DOBTCH, Chief Education Division. Mr. Latimer. I now offer what purports to be two reports of Joe H. Norris, inspector, Department of the Interior, both dated April 9, 290 BXPBHTHTTJBiES IN THE INTEBIOB BBPABTiStBNT, 1910, and both bearing stamp of tlie Office of Indian Affaiife, " Re- ceived April 15, 19ia, file No. 30858," ahd reading as foUmt^s : [Eeport of Joe H. ijorris, lriBpfect6r>, Departmient of the Intfei-ior.5 General Inspection and Investigation of Conditions at the Camp McDoWeli, AoiteNCT and Day School, Abizona, April 9, 1910. Section 4. needs of agency and dat schools, if consolidated. The buiiaings at tJAmp itfcbowell are In a , dilapidated Clondltkm; aisl pf little value. Should it be deemed best to consolidate these agencies, then tfi6 new agency should be located at or near where tie Salt River pay School now stands and near to where the present ditseh superintendent and physician Hve. flere is also located the lilission Church. The agency should be placed in charge of the present superintendent at Ckmp McDowell, and the ditch superintendent and all 'other employees retained. i0fiiJ)ecially will a cfose pergonal supervision be necessary in reference to sn^er- intending the ditches, the regulation of the water supply, and the farming operations of the Indians. There should be fefeervOT for th6 agency and day school a good school iferm. There Should be erected a superintendent's cottage and Office building, Ware- house, barn, two day schools, one a new one at or near where the Salt Biver Day Schol now stands and another near to where the Camp McDowell Indians are allotted, and there should be installed a water systein for domestic use. I therefore recommend that, should Ails consolidatiidn be accomplished, the present superintendeht ahd all present employees be retained ; also tha't a seEbol farm be reserved and the necessary buildings mentioned in thi^ section be erected, and that the bntldings at Camp McDowell be torn down and such parts as are of value removed to the new site recommended herein. Rfepectfully submitted. Joe H. Nobris, Inspector, Department of the Interior. [Report of Joe H. Norris, inspector, Department of the Interior.] General Inspection and Investigation op Conditions at the Camp McDowell Agency and Day School, Arizona, April 9, 1910. Section 3. proposed consolidation of camp m'dowell and salt river reservations. On November 20, 1909, a letter was written from the commissioner's office directing the consolidation of the Camp McDowell Agency with that of the Salt River Reservation, which is now under the supervision of the superintendent of the Pima Reservation, located at Sacaton. This order, it appears^ has never yet been finally executed. There have also been many rumors of the removal of the Camp McDowdU Indians to the Salt River Reservation and allotting them lands there. Both of these plans are, in my opinion, good ones, and the consolidation and neces- sary steps taken to move the McDowell Indians should be begun at an early date. In this connection there are several questions to be considered. The Salt River Reservation, with an area of 46,720 acres, occupied by the Pima and Maricopa Indians, is 35 miles from Sacaton, where the present superintendent resides, and is left practically in charge of the ditch superintendent, physician, and the day-school teacherfe at Salt River and lieM dtiy s6ht56Is. 'Thg Salt River lands are now so situated ag to get; the water fr^m the RboseYelt p£® and Arizona Canal projects. There is a sufficient amount of g6od lands to sup- ply both the Indians now residing there and the Camp McDowell Indians with 10-acre allotments. The Camp McDovrell and the Salt River Reservations lie EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBEIGE DBPABTMENT. 2:91 adjoining each other. By decree of coart recently, in this couist ia this Terri- tQrar, in determining the priority of rightjs on the water question, I am reliably info^-med, that should the Camp McDowell Indians fee removed to the Salt Rfver Reservatioii they would be entitled tp divert froip the Arizona Canal as much water as is now being diverted by them from the Verde River. (The water from this river floves into the Arizona Canal at the Granite Reef Dani.) To this move, however, there is much objection on the part of the McDowell Indians, and especially is this true with the old Indians. Should it be deter- mined to remove these Indians and allot them on the Salt River Reservation, it will require much skill and tact to do so witbout creating mijch dissension. I am of the opinion that the move should be made gradually, taking those first who are willing to go and no attempt should be made at the present to coer9e ^ny of them. I believe, hovyever, that th? matter can all be adjusted amicably as it is reached. There would be but little trouble in moving Ijhe tribe were t;bey assured that the present reservation would still remain theirs, to be used for pasture and ior the posts and firewood. This is a matter they should have absolute assurance on. I therefore recommend that this tribe be allotted 10 acres each on the Sftlt River Reservation. Job H. Noebis, Inspector, Department of the Interior. Mr. Valentine. Who wrote that letter? Mr. Latimer. It is signed Joe H. Norris, inspector. Is that his signature, Mr- Valentine? Mr. ^/'A^JSNTINE. I am not yery familiar with his signature, and I ■would not dare say. Mr. Latimer. Examine the file and state whether or not, in your j^dgiaent, that is a genuine report by Mr. Norris. B^Ir. Vausntine. It most decidedly looks so, sir. The reason I asked who wrote it was because I wanted to inform myself who wa? responsible for that very fool language. Mr. Latimer. I now offer letter of April 13, 1910, addressed to James B. Alexander, superintenjjeiit Pima Ind,ian iSchool, Sacaton, Ariz., signed J. H. Dortch, Chief Education Division, reading as follows : Apkil 13, 1910. Jai4es B. Alexander, Esq.^ SfU.per/i'n'tend&B't Pinw, Itiiiq/fi Sfihoqf, Hacaton, Ariz. Sir: In your letter of December 9, 1909, recommending the appointment of H. M. Alexander as supervisor of ditches, at $1,200 a year, for duty on the Salt River Reservation, you also recommended a young man by the name of Adams to succeed Mr. Alexander as additional farmer, at $65 a month, at your agency. If Mr. Adams is an Indian, he is eligible for appointment to the position pf additional farmer without examination; otherwise, it will be necessary for him to qualify in the regular competitive examination for farmer. Xou also say that iif Mr. Adams will not accept the position, you recommend the employment of his father, JefC W. Adams, at §5 a day and expenses. Please inform the oMce at once if the Adamses are Indians, and in what capacity you wish Jeff W. Adams employed in case the younger Adams is not appointed as additional farmer. Very respectfully, J. H. Dobtch, Ofiief. Education Division. The Ghahsmai^. Did you know Mr. Adams personally, Mr. Val- entine? Mr. VAiiENTiNE. I never heard of him Ipiefore, Mr. Chairman — I beg your pardon ; that may not ha quite true, I may have heard of him, but I have no recollection of ever haAong heard of him. Mr. Latimer. I infer frow the correspondexice that he was prob- ably an Indian there; was he not? 292: EXPBNDITtJBES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPABTMEISTT. Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge. Mr. Latimer. I now offer a report dated April 18, 1910, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Eeceived April 21, 1910," fil€ No. 32647, signed by Harwod Hall, supervisor, together with cover thereto attached, and reading as follows: [Inspection report.] Repobt of BLabwood Haix, Camp McDowell, Abiz., Apbil 18, 1910. Section 1. Subject, " General conditions." Action must be taken or memorandum prepared for inspection section on each of the following matters referred to in the report : 1. Removal of these Indians to the Salt River Reservation, and placing of the Salt River Reservation undier the McDowell jurisdiction. 2. Establishment of additional positions of matron and housekeeper for the Camp McDowell school for the ensuing year. July 1, 1910, final action taken. Report of Habwood Hall, Stjpebvisob or Inuian Schools. Apbil 18, 1910. Section 1. General conditions. — This day school is located 25 miles northeast of the Salt River Reservation, on the Verde River. The buildings consist of a number of old, dilapidated adobe structures, some being in ruins and others partly so. The superintendent's residence is in fair condition, as is the school* house and teacher's cottage. At this time school is conducted in the old com- missary building, which is near the superintendent's residence and more con- venient than the regular schoolhouse. The band of Mohave-Apache Indiana Inhabiting the reservation at the present time number 78, although there are about 180 attached to this reservation. Beside the superintendent and house- keeper there are also three judges of Indian court, a policeman, and a resident missionary. The Indians are nonprogressive and live practically to-day as always, houses consisting of wickiups. However, they have small patches of grain and raise turkeys and chickens. The latter they sell, not eating the poultry or eggs themselves, as they seem to have superstitious ideas as regards doing so. The Indians have been approached with reference to abandoning their present ancestral home and moving to the Salt River Reservation, where 1,400 acres of splendid land with pelnty of irrigating water has been tentatively set aside for them, but, with the exception of two young men, they refuse to consider the matter. Inasmuch as it is understood that the Salt River Reservation will be attached to the McDowell jurisdiction and the superintendent of Camp McDowell placed in charge of both reservations, it will be necessary to create additional positions of matron and housekeeper for the Camp McDowell School for the ensuing year. Haewood Hall, Supervisor. Mr. Latimek. I now offer a letter, dated Pima Training School, Sacadon, Ariz., April 19, 1910, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed J. B. Alexander, superintendent, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Re- ceived April 25, 1910," file No. 33734. . Examine this letter, if you please, Mr. Valentine, and state whether or not you know who made the pencil memorandum thereon. . ' Mr. Valentine. I do not. Mr. Latimer. Can you state whether or not that was mad6 in your office ? . ■ Mr. Valentine. I assumed when I wrote it that it was made by a clerk in the office. I have no positive knowledge. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. 293 The Chairman. Is it of any importance? Mr. Latimer. It specifically states when the Camp McDowell Res- ervation and Salt River Reservation were consolidated. It would probably require considerable other evidence to establish that. Mr. Valentine says he does not know anything about it, however. Mr. Valentine. I think the fact of that was developed yesterday afternoon as to when it was consolidated with Camp McDowell. I had no recollection in my earlier testimony, you will remember. The Chairman. Do the letters in blue pencil mean anything? "Eap." ^ ^ ^ _Mr, Vamntine. " E " probably stands for education. That is the division of the office department— educational division. The Chairman. Would that have any connection with the pencil memorandum ? Mr. Valentine. Very likely, but I do not know. However, the way it is there on the page, I should say probably not, for the reason that it was made with one kind of a pencil and probably by a differ- ent person than the one who made this memorandum. It might be it was information for educational appointments. Mr. Latimer. Is it true that the consolidation did become effective January 15, 1910? Mr. Valentine. I do not know. I had a record here yesterday, which said when it became effective. Mr. Latimer. The letter just identified, with the unsigned pencil memorandum added, is as follows : Department of the Intebiob, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Sacaton, Aria., April 19, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. Sir: In the matter of recommendations for Salt River Reservation, I have the honor to ask information as to the time the Salt River Reservation will be combined with the Camp McDowell Reservation. There should be a second day school established, and the location of same will depend somewhat upon the attendance from the Mohave Indians. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. (Pencil memorandum:) B. Ap. Change became effective January 15, 1910, and attention of Pima and Camp McDowell called to it in letters of April 26, 1910, Mr. Valentine. "Later the authority was modified so as to have the change become effective July 1, 1910." Evidently there was an original intention to have it at a date mentioned, and later that was modified. Mr. Latimer. As a matter of fact, the two reservations were com- bined under one management in July, 1910? Mr. Valentine. That appears so from this memorandum, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. I now offer a letter dated Camp McDowell Indiaii School, McDowell, Ariz., April 25, 1910, addressed to the Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, "Received May 3, 1910," file No. 36286, and 294 e;xipeni>ituees ik t^^ i5rT:^lPE ijigp^rBiM^^Tf signed Charles E. Coe, superintendent ; alsf^ another letter ifrprg Coe dated April 20, 1910, and reading as foll^'ws: Depabtmbnt of the Intebioe, Ubiited States Indian Seevice, CAifp McDowell Indian School^ McDowell, Ariz., April SO,' 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affaibs, Washington, D. 0. Sir : I have the honor to report on the Salt River Reservation, as requestoj in your letter quoting report of Inspector Joe H. Norris. I have vi^H^^ tne reservation and indorse the inspector's report. The present plant of the Salt River day school is an old adobe building, \vitli a small room in the rear, to which has been added another small addbe room; these two small rooms constitute the quarters for the teacher and his famj^. The whole building Is in bad shape. I recommend two new buildings for this day school — a school building and a cottage for the teacher. The school building to be a frame structujr^ ^i^ffi a brick foundation, having a front vestibule {ind a small toilet addition in 'the rear. I have allowed for the toilet room so. th^t a bath n^ay ba i5ist?tllpd,^r the children without a.ny additional builrdpLng expense whjeftev^. a ^Sjt^ ^^flW is Installed at Salt River. A frame cottage 29 by 28 feet, with brick foundation, having liviijg room, dining room, and bedroom, with a screened porch for kitchen and extra sleep- ing room. The estimates which I am inclosing on Form 5-262 were made by l^r. ^ffff^- val, head carpenter at the Phoenix Indian School, and are therejfpre more ^flcii- rate than I could have prepared alone. . Another plan would be to build the cottage for the teacher and his familjcana enlarge the schoolroom by removing the partition in the. present building. The walls would have to be cemented on the outsid^, and it is, difficult to gpt Pjft^fi? or cement to stick to an old adobe wall. New floors would hiave to be laid ana some plastering done on the Inside of the building. As the rear wall has settled a little, I do not advise this plan." It will cost about $600 to remodel this build- ing, and it will still be an oM one. 1 therefore recommend tearing it down and buildiifg ^ new one. Very respectiully, Chaeles E. Coe, Super'int&iidemt. Depabtment of the Intbriob, T>NiTED States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., April S5, ISIO. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Wushington, D. G. SiE ; The farmer's cottage at Salt River, which at present ia headQuairters (or that reservation, is located 15 miles from Phoenix and 5 miles from the ppgt office, Scottsdale, Ariz. Camp McDowell is 35 miles from Phoenix and 20 jmijes fro^n the post oifice. When the consolidation of the two Reservations is .effected. It will be desirable to locate agency headquarters on tlje Salt River -Reservaaon on account of its being so much nearer to the railroad and post office, arid also because that is the center of population. About fovir-flfths of thp li^lans of ti^ two reservations live there. There are at present about 5 acres "Sed by the farmer and 24 acres foi; th^ day school. East of the farmer's there Is a small tract, probably 10 acres, and west there is another one of 2 or 3 acres. This land is all in one body, and I recom- mend that it aU be resery^d for agency purposes. There are no agency buildings except the farmer's cottage, and it will.,^e p,^?^ eary to erect spj^e. I would recomniend that this be done, as soon as pos^i^le. There Is iiieiBcl,ed an office, yr^rehouse, jail, ba'rn,"superintendent's cbtfege, and a water system. I am not a carp^t^r, nor are any of the empljoyee^ iind^r ipy sWfn^f'^VfcW?^ I would therefore request that Supervisojc Charles be sent to Sftlt Riyer to.tJSftW plans and estimate for this plant. Very respectfully, Charles B. Cob, Supertntendent. EXp:p.$rj)JTTjeBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 296 I, now offer letter of April 30, 1910, to Charles E. Coe, superinr tendent Camp McDowell Indian Schooh McDowell, Ariz., bearing a signature in rubber stamp, " K. G. Valentine, commissioner," and reading as follows: Chables E. Coe, Esq., Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sib: Supervisor Harwood Hall, in his report of April 18, on the Camp McDowell School and the removal of the Indians, says a consultation has been held with them concerning the abandonment of their ancestral home, and their removal to the Salt Elver Reservation, where 1,400 acres of splendid land with plenty of Irrigating water has been tentatively set aside for them. However, with the exception of two young men, they refused to consider the proposition. In view of the willingness of these two young men to accept the change, It Is suggested that you make an example of them, giving them every possible advantage and encouragement, and requesting the allotting agent to establish them on the best allotments he can find. It is left to your tact and judgment by so far enlisting the enthusiasm of these young men as to bring about a similar spirit in others of the tribe, to whom their example may appeal. Assure the tribe that they will be allowed to retain the use of the present Camp McDoweU Reservation for pasturage, etCi, as long as they may And it necessary to do so. i i - ' ' ''"■■■ lu this way, it may be borne on the Indians that the change will be to their advantage, and the sooner made the better. ^ . :■ Please give the office information as to your success in accomplishing the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation. ' Supervisor Hall suggests that additional positions of matron and houses Keeper he created for your school, in view of the change in your jurisdiction. However, your first list of positions and salaries for the next fiscal year in» eludes a matron at $720 per annum who will teach and also act as housekeeper. You later recommend that a financial clerk at $720 and a housekeeper at $300 per annum be authorized. Please make explicit recommendation in accordance with the, supervisor's report. ; The superintendent of the Pima Reservation reports that in the event of the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to Salt River, a second day school at Salt River will be necessary to meet the needs of the Mojaves. Please let your report include a separate recommendation on this important feature. Very respectfully, R. G. Vaxentine, Commissioner. Examine the letter which I have just read and state whether or not it in any way refreshes your recollection as to whether you wrote it. Mr. Valentine. I have heard you read it, Mr. Latimer. It does not refresh my recollection to any degree. My only comment on it •now would be that it enables me, if that is the best move for the In- dians, to share any honor that Mr. Hauke had alone yesterday. Mr. Latimek. So you state that, judging from the appearance of the letter and the wording, that you did write the letter ? Mr. Valentine. No; not that I wrote the letter; that I signed the letter. I do not care to enter it here, because it would look like a de- fense of jaj action, which is not needed ; but I would like to some time explain to the committee the method of signing letters in the Indian Office. > Mr. Latimee. I now offer a letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., May tj 1910, bearing a stanjp.pf the Office of liidian Affairs, " Eeoeived May 13, 1910," file No. 39722, addressed 98240^No. 7— 11 4 ' . . 296 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Charles E. Coe, superintendent, and reading as follows : Department of the Interior, Unites States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., May 7, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Inclosed herewith Is a petition from some members of this tribe In re- gard to the plan of removing them to certain lands on the Salt River Reserva- .tion, which they have requested me to forward to your office. One of the greatest objections they express to the plan is the giving up of their present reservation. I have told them that I do not think that is the Intention, but that they would be permitted to retain Camp McDowell, but In the absence of definite information I have not thought it best to press the point. When this question was first discussed only two Indians said they would make the change. When they had the meeting to formulate the inclosed peti- tion, however, none of the younger men present would sign the paper. Sam Kill, judge, and Steve Norton, who I believe are two of the most intelligent and progressive of the older men also refused to sign, saying that they believed the department was trying to do the best they could for the Indians, that they were just as much attached to their McDowell homes as any of the others, but are willing to make the change if the office thinks it best. This is a beginning, and I believe, with this nucleus to work with, we will get all the better class of Indians to see the advantage of such a move. It will have to be kept constantly before them and tact and judgment used to get it to appeal to them as a plain business proposition. Very respectfully, Charles B. Coe, Superintendent. I now offer a letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, Mc- Dowell, Ariz., May 10, 1910, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Received May 14, 1910, file No. 40024," addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Charles E. Coe, superintendent, reading as follows: Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, MoDowclJ, Ariz., May 10, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Wdshiiiffton, D. C. Sir : That i)ortion of Supervisor Hall's report concerning the attitude of the Camp McDowell Indians on the question of their removal to the Salt River Reservation is pretty thoroughly covered in my letter of the 7th instant, which was written just before the letter referred to above was received. I believe, however, that there will be more than two men willing to make the change this fall. They all have growing crops here and will want to harvest them first. From talks I have had with different Indians I believe several of them will be willing to go as soon as this is done. I think it will be better to make a recommendation in regard to a new day school for the McDowell Indians in the event of their removal to Salt River, when we are assured that it is going to be successfully accomplished. "Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. I now offer letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., May 10, 1910, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Eeceived May 14, 1910, file No. 30049," addressed to the Commis- EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 297 sioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, and signed Charles E. Coe, superintendent, and reading as follows: Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Arts., May 10, 1910. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washmgtcm, D. C. Sir : Your letter of April 30 has been received. Concerning Supervisor Har- ■wood Hall's suggestion that the positions of matron and housekeeper be cre- ated at this school, and your request for " explicit recommendation in accord- ance with the supervisor's report," I have the honor to reply as follows : In my letter of March 17, I recommended that the position of matron be established in stead of housekeeper. This was before receipt of Circular No. 410, which made it desirable to retain the housekeeper in order to give the girls proper training in cooking, etc. My later recommendation, a financial clerk and a housekeeper, was in accordance with the suggestion of Inspector Joe H. Norris. Both Inspector Norris and Supervisor Hall agree that the position of house- keeper should be retained and that one other position should be established. Supervisor Hall thinks that it should be a matron, who will do the teaching, and I agree with Mr., Hall. I therefore recommend that these positions for the fiscal year 1911 be matron, at $720 per annum, and housekeeper, at $30 per month. Very respectfully, Charles E^ Cox, Superintendent. I now offer a letter dated May 10, 1910, signed in rubber stamp, " R. G. Valentine," addressed to John Charles, supervisor of con- struction, Tacoma, Wash., and reading as follows : May 10, 1910. John Charles, Esq., Supervisor of Construction, Tacoma, Wash. Sir : There are inclosed for your information copies of letters and an esti- mate from the superintendent of the Camp McDowell School concerning the reservation of certain tracts of land for the Salt River Agency purposes and tlie construction of certain buildings for the school and ageucy in view of the Consolidation of the Camp McDowell and Salt River Reservations. The oiiice would like to have your opinion on these several propositions. When you can make it convenient to visit the Salt River Reservation please look into these matters and make recommendations. It is thought that a new schoolhouse and cottage should be provided instead of repairing the old build- ings. There should also be a small water and sewer system, including an elevated tank and tower for the purpose of supplying plumbing fixtures in the cottage, and ijrobably a bathroom for the school. As a water system is also required for the new agency, you may be able to combine the tw^o water systems. Plans for a wire school building, together with a set for the cottage, will be sent in a few days, under separate cover, to the superintendent. The plan for the wire schoolhouse is similar to that used at Cabazon, Cal. Very respectfully, R. G. Valentine, Commissioner. I now offer a letter of May 10, 1910, to Charles E. Coe, superintend- ent of Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., signed C. F. Hauke, chief clerk, and reading as follows : Mat 10, 1910. Charles E. Coe, Esq., Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sib : The oflice has received your letter of April 25 recommending that certain tracts of land be reserved for agency purposes at Salt River Reservation ; also that an office, warehouse, jail, barn, superintendent's cottage, and a water system be constructed there in view of the consolidation of the Camp McDowell and 298 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. the Salt River Reservations. Please forward a complete description by legal subdivisions of the land proposed to be set aside. ■ Supervisor of construction, John Charles; has been requested to look into these matters when he is in the vicinity of the Salt River Reservation and make appropriate recommendations, after which you may submit the necessary separate itemized estimates of material and labor for the construction of these projects and the consideration of the office when the appropriation for 1911 is available. Very respectfully, O. F. HAttke, ' ' Chief Clerk. I now offer a letter of May 18, 1910, bearing the stamp of the Office of Iildian Affairs, " Received May 25, 1910," file No. 43072, addressed' to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D, C, and signed Charles E. Coe, superintendent, and reading as follows : Department op the Intebiob, United States Indian Sebvicb, Camp McDowell Indian School, - McDowell, Ariz., May 18; 1910. Honorable Commissioneb of Indian Ajtaibs, Washington, D. C. Sib : The instructions contained in the letter transferring me from Havasupal School to Camp McDowell, directed me to proceed " to McDowell and relieve Supt. Fulkerson, receipting for the Government property in his possesion. Those instructions were carried out. That letter said nothing about Salt River, and at that time I did not know anything about the proposed consolidation of the Camp McDowell and Salt River Reservations. In looking over some corre- spondence in a drawer here I found a copy of the order consolidating the two reservations. This vras about the 6th of February, and was the first otficial news I had on the subject. As my transfer did not say anything about Salt River, and I only learned of the consolidation, accidentally, as it were, three weeks after taking charge of Camp McDowell, I could not have taken charge of Salt River Reservation at that time. I presumed that your office would send further instructions before having me assume jurisdiction over Salt River. It Is now but a few weeks until the end of the fiscal year, and the supwln- tendent of the Pima Reservation has the necessary funds on hand to meet the expenses of the Salt River Reservation for the balance of the year, it seems to me the logical solution of this tangle would be to have Supt. Alexander retain Jurisdiction until the end of the fiscal year. That would obviate the necessity of me estimating for funds and rendering accounts for the few remaining weeks. The only school employees at Camp McDowell are superintendent and house- keeper. Should I take over Salt River at this time it would make so much extra work that the Camp McDowell school would have to be closed in order to handle it. I do not like to do that, as there has been so little school here this year. We are just getting the children interested, and to close now would be to lose all we have gained since we opened school the 1st of February. By waiting until the end of the year, school would be in vacation, and the extra work might be handled. Xour letter of April 29, 1910, directs me to furnish a supplementary report of changes In employees for January, taking up the Salt River employees Jan- uary 15. I inclose those reports, but it seems to me this would be incorrect, as the superintendent of the Pima Reservation has carried these employees on his pay rolls for the time since that date. I earnestly request that this letter be given as favorable consideration as possible, and recommend that the jurisdiction. over Salt River Reseryation re- main with Supt. Alexander, of the Pima school, until the end of the fiscal year, for the reasons outlined in this letter. I believe the needs of the service will be better carried out by doing so. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. i now offer a letter dated Sherman Institute, Riverside, Cal., May 25, 1910, addressed to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washing- BXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 299 ton, D. C, and signed H. B. Peairs, supervisor of Indian education, and reading as follows : Department op the Intebiob, United States Indian Sbbvice, Sherman Institute, Riverside, Cal., May 25, 1910. The honorable Commissioneb of Indian At-FAiEs, ' ' Washingtm,' D. 0. ' '" ' * Sib: I respectfully report that on the 20th I visited the Salt River Day School, which belongs under the Sacatdn oi' Pima jurisdiction. It Is proposed to build a new day-school plant there, and I understand that It has been recom- mended that two day schools, be built on the reservation in order to provide for a:ll the Salt River Indian children and for the children of the Indians from McDowell when they move to the Salt River Reservation. I drcfve over a con- siderable portion of the reservation, and it seems to me that it would be a mis- take to build two buildings. Instead I wish to suggest that a godd day-schOol plant, including a school building containing two classrooms and a domestic- work room, quarters for superintendent and employees' quarters, wateir supply, including a good well, gasoline pump and tank, iand other necessary Small buildings be built. It may possibly become necessary to transport the pupils whose parents live at thef greatest distances ftom the school, but it will make it possible to maintain a very much better school by having the children all in one school rather than in having two Small day schools on diffeirent parts of the reservation. The roads are good' throughout the reservation, or may be made so with very little work, and It seems to me that the conditions are ex- ceptionally good there for the consolidated day school. The Indian people are industrious and practically self-supporting. I understand that they liave 5,000 acres of wheat this year and quite an acreage of alfalfa. The' Children are bright and conditions in general ate such as to justify the Governiiient In pro- viding a first-class school plant. I think it would be a serious mistake to con- struct the two ordinary one-room school buildings on this reservation. Very respectfully, H. B. Peaibs, Supervisor of Indian Education. Mr. Latimer. Mr. Valentine, I hand you a letter purporting to be signed by John Francis, jr., acting chief Land Division, headed. " Memorandum for education," with no date attached. Can you give me approximately the date when that was written? Mr. Valentine. It must have been written some time after June 2, 1910, if its place in the file is correct, and before the unsigned memo- randum dated June 3, 1910. It must have been written on the 2d or 3d of June, apparently. Mr. Latimer. Offer is made of the " Memorandum for education," signed by John Francis, jr., acting chief Land Division, just identi- fied by Mr. Valentine, reading as follows : Depaetmbnt of the Intebiob, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington. memorandum fob education. The attached communication from the superintendent of the Camp McDowell Indian School, Ariz., transmitting a petition by a large number of the Indians protesting against their removal to the Salt River Reservation, is transmitted herewith for action by Education, previous correspondence indicating that your division has this matter under consideration. In this connection, however, attention is invited to the fact that between the years 1903 and 1905 a sum of $63,000 was expended by the office in purchas- ing the claims of white settlers on lands now included In the Camp McDowell Reservation, and If these Indians are transferred to the Salt River Reserva- 300 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. tlon and the Camp McDowell Reservation abandoned It will simply mean the loss of this amount of money to the Government. See annual report of 1905, John Francis, Jr., Acting Chief Land Division. I now offer what purports to be a " memorandum for land," dated June 3, 1910, with a place for signature on a line over the words "Chief Education Division," but unsigned, and reading as follows: Memorandum fob Land. June 3, 1910. Even though the ofiice did expend $63,000 some years ago for the purchase of rights of white men on the present Camp McDowell Reservation, the conditions which have been discovered since that time, in the judgment of this division, justify the proposed removal. Mr. Code, after making a careful study of the irrigation possibilities of the reservation, discovered that not enough water could be obtained at a reasonable cost to irrigate sufficient land to support the entire Indian population, or even a fair proportion of it. He suggested the removal of such of the Indians as would agree to take up agricultural pursuits to the Salt River Reservation. He had no idea in mind, neither had the office in adopting his suggestion, that Indians were to be coerced into leaving the Camp McDowell Reservation to accept allotments at Salt River. It was be- lieved that all the moral suasion which an intelligent presentation of the con- ditions and prospects would effect should be used in the interest of the Indians to Induce as many as possible to remove. The original investment in rights of white men is probably as good to-day as it was at the time the money was expended, and will be salable for a reasonable return to the Government. Education believes that the proposed removal of all those who are sufficiently Intelligent to appreciate its advantages should be carried forward. Chief Education Division. I now offer a letter dated Camp McDowell Indian School, Mc- Dowell, Ariz., June 9, 1910, addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, signed Charles E. Coe, super- intendent, bearing stamp of the Office of Indian Affairs, " Received June 15, 1910," file No. 48843, and reading as follows : Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDoH-cll. Ariz., Jtine .9, 1910. Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sib: I have been carrying on a quiet campaign among the Indians of this reservation, trying to work up a sentiment favorable to their removal to farm- ing lands on the Salt River Reservation. A question has arisen in this connec- tion which I respectfully refer to the consideration of your office. The question is as follows: "Will the Salt River Indians acquire equal rights with the Mo- haves to the timber and grazing on Camp McDowell Reservation after the con- solidation of the two reservations?" Several Indians have asked me this question and stated their objection to such an arrangement. They say the lands they will get on Salt River are desert and afford neither grazing nor timber and are valueless without water. The water for this land will come not from the Pima water right, but already be- longs to the Mohaves, and will simply be taken out a little lower down stream. They say the Pimas could not make any use of this land, as they do not have enough water. Camp McDowell Reservation has an abundance of excellent timber for posts and cord wood and affords fine grazing. So the Mohaves do not think it would be fair to allow the Pimas to share Camp McDowell in re- turn for the small amount of land they will receive on Salt RivSr. Please let me have an answer to this question as soon as possible. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. EXPENBITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 301 I now offer a letter of Jvine 18, 1910, to Charles E. Coe, superin- tendent, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., signed by C. F. Hauke, chief clerk, reading as follows: June 18, 1910. Charles E. Coe, Esq., Superintendent Camp McDowell India/n School, McDowell, .-Irfe. Sik: The office has received your letter of May 7, inclosing a petition from some members of the Camp McDowell tribe concerning their removal to Salt River Reservation. There is inclosed an answer addressed to Chief Yuma Frank, et al. Please see that this letter is delivered to the Indians, and at the same time continue to use your best judgment in the matter of obtaining their consent to removing to Salt River. It is encouraging to note that the younger and more progressive Indians did not sign the petition asking that they be allowed to remain at Camp JIcDowell. The office believes that the proposed removal of all those Indians who are sufficiently intelligent to appreciate its advantages should be carried forward, and it will depend upon your efforts to bring about a satisfactory solution of the ijuestion in due time. Very respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Chief Clerk. I now offer a letter of June 18, 1910, addressed to Chief Yuma Frank, McDowell, Ariz.j signed in rubber stamp, " R. G. Valentine, commissioner," and reading as follows : June 18, 1910. Chief Yuma Frank et al. (Through Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School), McDowell, Arig. Mr Friends : I have your petition of May 7, setting out your reasons to be allowed to remain at Camp McDowell. In suggesting your removal to Salt River the office has your best interests in view. However, you shall not be> required to go there against your will. The Government school at Camp McDowell will be maintained during the next fiscal year, and you will be allowed to use the land for grazing purposes as heretofore. Those Indians who will take allotments at Salt River first will be given the best places there, and no doubt when you see that they have bet- tered their condition by removing to Salt River you will be anxious to follow their example later. When you are ready to do so, let me know. I am glad you appreciate what the Government has done, and I think you will also appreciate what it is now willing and anxious to do for you by placing you at Salt River, where there will be even better facilities than you now enjoy at Camp McDowell. Mr. Coe will advise and assist you in this important step when you are ready to accept the proposition of removing to Salt River Reservation. Very respectfully, R. G. Valentine, Commissioner. Mr. Latimer. I have at different times in these letters read the name of Mr. Hauke, with the title designated underneath as " as- sistant commissioner " and in other instances as " chief clerk." Will you state how that probably arises? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Hauke's position was changed by act of Con- gress from chief clerk to that of assistant commissioner. Mr. Latimer. On or about when? Mr. Valentine. I am trying to think. [After a pause.] July 1, 1910, I think. Mr. Latimer. I desire to offer a file purporting to be from the office of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, marked " Camp Mc- Dowell, 19325-1-1911," and I offer all letters and papers in such file and ask that they be inserted in the record in the order in which they appear, together with the wrapper or what purports to be a memo- randum of the file. Mr. Valentine, does that file come from your office? 3^02 EKPBNBITUBES TN THE II**EKIOK Tf&P'AAr^'&lStf. ■Mr. Valentine-. Yes,"sir. '■ ■''■'■ - " " " ■' Inspection Repobt. Report of Carl Gunderson, supervisor. Agency or school : Camp McDowell, Ariz. Date of report : February 23, 1911. Section 1. Subjett: Camp McD6#ell allotment situation. Date of action: April 1, 1811, final action taken. Action should be taken or memorandum prepared pn each of the following matters referred to in the report : . . » . ... 1. Allotments to the Mojave Apache Indians as follows : Fifty acres of graz- ing land, on the Camp McDowell RiSsertation, to every man, woman, and Child who are properly enrolled &s members of that tMbe, and 5 acres of irrigabje land, with assured water rights, on the Salt River Reseryatlon. The grazln'g allotment of 50 acres for every man, wonifen, and chlld"t6' Inclnde an eg^al share of the arable land to be located so as to include the improvements aiid fields of each Indiaii. ' , . 2. I will also recommend that the remainder of the land on the Camp Mc- Dowell Reservation be held for the use of the Indians in common. '" ' 3. The foregoing recommendations are made with the knowledge' and' ap- proval of Inspector Llnnen, Supt. Coe. and Allotting Agent Roblln. 4. Notify Allotting Agent Roblin by wire if the above recommendations are approved. Inspection Repobt. Report of Carl Gunderson, supervisor. Agency or school: Salt River, Ariz. Date of report: February 28, 1911. Section 2. Subject ; Supplemental report on the allotting work at Salt Elver. Date of action: April 8, 1911, final action taken. Action should be taken or memorandum prepared on each of the following matters referred to in the report: , 1: Consider in connection with Supervisor Gunderson's report, 19325-1-1911. Report of supervisor of allotting agents, Carl Gunderson, of Camp McDowell allotment situation, February 23, 1911. Department of the Intebioe, United States Indian Service, Sacaton, Arig., FKltruary 23, Wll. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. Sib: In compliance with instructions in office telegram, dated February 17, 1911, I returned to the Salt River Reservation February 19, and accompanied by Allotting Agent C. E. Roblin, again drove to the Camp McDowell Reserva- tion and School. Superintendent Coe, Allotting Agent Roblin, and myself then examined the reservation with a view to ascertaining the amount of suitable grazing land that could be allotted to the Mojave-Apache Indians. In this work we were assisted by Mr. Farmer, who is now engaged in surveying that reservation under the direction of the General Land Office. We found that there was about 10,000 acres of suitable grazing land. This included about 2,000 acres of agricultural land which the Indians are occupying and some of which they are cultivating and irrigating by means of a very uncertain system of irrigation. We then met the Indians in council and stated that we were prepared to recommend to the office that each man, woman, and child of the Mojave-Apache Indians be allotted 50 acres of grazing land on the Camp McDowell Reserva- tion; that each Indian would be allotted the land on which he lived and on wlileh he had made improvements; that they would be permitted to continue living on that reservation, as they had done heretofore; that in addition to the 50 acres to be allotted on the Camp McDowell Reservation, we woulQ recommend that each man, woman, and child be allotted 5 acres of irrigable land, with assured water rights, on the Salt River Reservation. The older Indians replied that they would consent to being allotted 50 acres of grasiing land to each man, woman, and child on the Calnp McDowell Reser- EXPENlilTTJBE'S ilj T^HE INTEKIOB DEPABTMENT. S03 Tatlon, but that they' would not accept 5 acres of irrigable land on the Salt Si^er tteservation. ■■•■.-. '' Every argument possible was made to convince them that it was to their advantage to accejrt the Irrigable land, but still they refused. We did not present to them the alternative of accepting ftllotments only on the Camp McDowell Reservation, because 22 of the young Indians have already accepted allotments of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation, and as maiy more will select allotments there on the 25th Of February. We then asked if they Would send a delegation to'Sacaton, on the GUa Reser- vation, for the purpose of consulting with Inspector E. B. Lirineh, and Mr. M. K. SnifEen, of the Indian Rights Association. They Consented to do so, and sent four members of the tribe, among them being Yuma Frank, their chief. The recommendation which we had proposed to make to the office was care- fully explained to the delegation by Inspector Linnen. He also explained the advantage that they would gain if allotted according to the proposed amend- ment, instead of according to the provisions of the bill recently introduced in Congress, and of which a copy was sent to Chief Yuma Frank by, Dr. Carlos Montezuma. Inspector Linnen also explained the advantage that would accrue to the Indians on that reservation if they would accept 5 acres of irrigable land, with assured water, on the Salt River Reservation. He assured them that they would not be required to move to the Salt River Reservation; that they could always live on the Camp McDowell Reservation if they preferred to do so. But the delegation refused to accept 5 acres of irrigable land on the Salt Ri'ver Reservation. The chief, however, stated that he would tell his people that all who wished to take 5 acres of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation could do so freely; that he would offer no objection. While the delegation refused to aCcept 5 acres of irrigable land for themselves, I am of the opinion that a majority of the Mojave-Apache Indians will accept the irrigable land now, and that alj will do so before long. I will therefore recommend that allotments be made to the Mojave-Apache Indians in quantities as follows : Fifty acres of grazing land on the Camp McDowell Reservation to every man, woman, and child who are properly enrolled as members of that tribe, and 5 acres of irrigable land, with assured water rights, on the Salt River Reserva- tion. Tte grazing allotment of 50 acres for every man, woman, and child to include an equal share of the arable land, to be located so as to include the improvements and fields of each Indian. I will also recommend that the remainder of the land on the Camp McDowell Reservation be held for the use of the Indians in common. The foregoing recommendations are made with the knowledge and approval of Inspector Linnen, Superintendent C. E. Coe, and Allotting Agent Roblin. I will request the office to notify Allotting Agent Roblin, by wire, if the above recommendations are approved, as Mr. Roblin has been furnished with a copy of these recommendations. It is very important that Mr. Roblin be ad- vised of the action of the office on the above recommendations at the earliest date possible, for the reason that he will soon complete the allotments on the Salt River Reservation, and desires to also complete the allotments on the Camp McDowell Reservation before moving to the Gila Reservation. Very respectfully, Casl Gunderson, Supervisor of AllottUng Agents. Supplemental Report of Carl Gunderson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents, ON THE Salt River Reservation, Ariz. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Savaton, Ariz., February 23, 1911. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. G. Sir : I have the honor to make the following supplemental report on the condi- tion of the allotment work on the Salt River Reservation : When I returned to the Salt River Reservation on the 19th instant, I was informed by Allotting Agent Robin that the allotment work was practically at 304 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPABTMENT. a standstill. Chief Juan Chappo refused to make selections for himself and family and also advised about 400 other Indians to do the same. On investi- gation I learned that the chief informed his followers that there was to be a large council held at Sacaton, to which the Indians of the Salt River Reserva- tion would be invited to attend; that the question of whether or not they would accept allotments would be decided at that council. After persuading four of the Mojave-Apache Indians to come to Sacaton, I requested Supt. Coe to ask Chief Juan Chappo to go with us to learn whether or not the reported council would be held. At first he refused. Then I went to his place to see him, but found that he had left home. Later I sent for him and urged him to go with us to Sacaton and have a talk with the inspector. He finally consented, and two other Indians also consented to accompany us. On arrival at Sacaton these Indians were taken to see Inspector Linnen, who gave them good advice as to the course to pursue.. He assured them that there was to be no large council at Sacaton. and that difficulties on each reservation must be adjusted where they occur. They were assured that practically all the good land on the reservation would be allotted to them under the increased allotment area. The chief finally consented to take his allotment and to advise his followers to do the same. This will remove practically the last objection to taking allotments. I believe that the work can now be conducted as it should have been from the beginning, and that it can be closed up within a reasonable length of time. I will recommend that the position of lease clerk be created at Sacaton, and that it be filled by the appointment of a competent man, who should at once begin the work of taking family histories of the Indians on the Gila River, Salt River, and Camp McDowell Reservations. The Indians have been informed that these histories will be taken, and they have been requested to be prepared to give tfle necessary information. I will recommend that the remainder of the unallotted land on the Salt River Reservation be held for the use of the Indians in common, and that allotments be made to children born after the allotment work has closed on that reserva- tion, as long as there remains any unallotted land. Very respectfully, Cabl Gundeeson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents. Mr. Charles E. Roblin, Special Allotting Agent, Scottsdale, Ariz. Sib : The office has before it a report submitted by Sui)ervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson, under date of February 23, 1911, regarding allotments to Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation. Mr. Gunderson recommends that each man, woman, and child of the Mojave Indians on the Camp McDowell Reservation be given 50 acres of grazing land there in allotment, and also 5 acres of irrigable land with assured water rights on the Salt River Reser- vation. Dr. Carlos Montezuma, of Chicago, III., recently was advised by the office that allotments in severalty of the lauds within the Camp McDowell Reservation would not be made at this time, but that every effort would be made to Induce these Indians to remove to and accept allotments of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation. It has not been found practicable to furnish with water under a Government project any lands within the Camp McDowell Reservation, and naturally it will be to the best interests of these Indians to accept allotments of five acres of irrigable land with assured water rights from the Roosevelt Dam within the Salt River project on that reservation. It will prove advisable, therefore, to advise the Camp McDowell Indians as early as practicable that the office is not considering at this time a proposition to allot in severalty the lands within their reserve. They will, of course, be allowed to use in common the lands within the Camp McDowell Reservation, The office has been pleased to note from prior correspondence with the super- intendent of the Camp McDowell school that 42 of these Indians have already selected the lands wanted in allotment on the Salt River Reservation. Respectfully, C. F. Hatjke, Second Assistant Cormmssioner. (Carbon to superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School.) EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 305 Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Salt River Indian Reservation, Scottsdale, Ariz., April 8, 1911. Honorable Commissioner or Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir : I have tlie honor to acknowledge the receipt of office letter of March 23, 1911, In reference to continuing work on the Salt River and Gila River Reser- vations during the coming summer. In reply I will state that the weather here has been quite warm for some weeks past. The thermometer has registered from 89 to 92° of heat for some time, and field work is becoming very unpleasant. My surveyor advises me that his men are already anxious to quit, and that he does not think he can hold them later than May 1. The land office surveyors have been Instructed to quit work here about May 15, one party going to Fort Berthold, N. Dak., and one party to Pyramid Lake, Nev. Harvest hands work at night in this district and stay in the shade during the day. Life in houses is exceedingly unpleasant, while life in tents is practically impossible. I appreciate the desire of the office to push the allotment work on these reservations; but I do not believe that efficient field work can be done here during the summer months. At the time Mr. Carl Gunderson, supervisor, visited me at Browning, Mont., in July, 1910, he advised me that field work was practically impossible here during several months in the summer, but that if I would agree to come here and work during the winter he would recommend that I be assigned to some northern work during the summer of 1911. Of course, I understand that his promise could not bind the office; but the office asks for an expression of my wishes In the matter, and I desire to state them fully. One consideration which decided me to accept this assignment was that my wife was pregnant at that time, and I knew that the winter in Arizona, in a tent, would be better for her health than a winter in Montana, but that a return to the north during the summer of 1911 would be imperative. On March 2, 1911, my wife presented me with a child. I will not, under any circumstances, keep my wife and baby here during the coming summer, and I would much prefer that my work be at some place in the north, where we need not be so far separated. The work here has proved much more difficult than Mr. Gunderson or I anticipated. The Indians have been very antagonistic, and it has taken months to accomplish what could have been done in as many weeks under more favor^ able conditions. I have completed the allotment of all but about 2.5 of the Indians of the Salt River Reservation, but the Indians of the Lehl and the McDowell Reservations practically refuse to take their allotments. This matter will form the subject Of a separate report. I have made no allotments on the Gila River Reservation, but the surveyors now have spme Qi these lands ready for me, and I intend to move to Sacaton in a few days. There are about 5,000 Indians on the Gila River Reservation, and as none of their cultivated fields conform to the legal subdivisions the work will be slow, and it will be impossible to complete it this year. The survey of the reservation will not be completed this year. If the ofllce can not conveniently make other arrangements and desires me to stay here during the coming summer I will do so, although it will be very unpleasant, and the necessity of maintaining my family elsewhere will entail considerable additional expense. I would prefer, however, to be assigned to some work in the North, if possible. Respectfully, Chas. E. Roblin, Special Allotting Agent. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Gila River Indian Reservation, Sacaton, Ariz., April 20, 1911. Honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Washington, D. C. Sir : I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of office letter of March 21, 1911, in reference to allotments to Indians on the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation. 306 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The office states that— " Dr. Carlos Mpntezuma, of Chicago, lU., recently was advised by the office that allotments in severalty of the lands within the Camp McDowell Reserva- tion would not be rbade at this time but that every effort would be made to Id- duce these Indians to remove to and accept allotments of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation." This matter was the subject of my letter of January 19, 1911, in which I suggested that the strong objectioni. of the Camp McDowell Indians to taking allotments might be overcome by allotting them their " home " places on the Camp McDowell Reservation as grazing land, and inducing them to take their Irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation. Under date of February 1ft, 1911, land allotments 6558-1911, J T R, the office advised me that— ., "Your suggestion that the Camp McDowell Indians be allowed' to take irri- gable land on the Salt River Reservation and allotments of grazing' land' on their own reservation meets, with the approval of the office." : i At about the samedate the office wired to Mr. Carl Gunderson, supervisor, to confer with Supt. Goe and me as to the advisability o* giving these 'In- dians 5 acres of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation , and grazing land on the McDowell Reservation, Taking office letter to me of February 10, 1911, and the telegraphic, instructions to Mr. Gunderson as a basis rfor treating with the Camp McDowell Indians, Mr. Coe, Mr. Gunderson, and I visited several of these Indians at their homes and held a council with them at the Camp McDowell School. At that council they absolutely refused to consider any prop- osition of allotment unless they could have allotted to them in severalty their home places on the Camp McDowell Reservation, and man after man expressed his opposition to taking any land on the Salt River Reservation. Their fear seems to be that if they take any land on the Salt River Reservation they will eventually be required to move there and to give up their homes on the Camp McDowell Reservation. They had heard that Mr. E. B. Linuen, inspector, a man " straight from Washington," and Mr. Matthew K. Sniffen, of the Indian Rights Association, were at Sacaton, and as a last resort we induced two of their leading men to visit these gentlemen at Sacaton in company with Mr. Coe and Mr. Gunderson. After a long conference with these leaders, and upon the assurance from all offi- cials present that the expressed Intent of the office was to allot to them their home places in any event and to " throw in " 5 acres of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation, these leaders agreed to withdraw their objection to having the members of the tribe take irrigable lands on the Salt River Reservation. With this understanding Mr. Gunderson made his report of February 23, 1911, referred to in office letter of March 21, 1911; and with this understanding, and upon the agreed condition that they would eventually be allotted their home places on the Camp McDowell Reservation, Mr. Coe, Mr. Gunderson, and I have induced six heads of families, representing with their families and relatives 42 of the Camp McDowell Indians, to take allotments of 5 acres each of irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation. These Indians, with others of the tribe, are anxiously waiting for me to come to their reservation to allot to them their home places. To all their inquiries as to when I would be there Mr. Coe and I have had to reply that I " have not yet received instructions from Washington." I believe that if the recommendation of Mr. Gunderson contained in his report of February 23, 1911, were adopted by the office I would experience little difficulty in inducing these Indians to take their allotments as recommended. I am quite sure, however, that there is at present no chance of allotting them in accordance with my original instructions of November 14, 1910. (Liind allot- ments, 85881-1910; 100773-1910, J T R.) In the course of our council with these Indians one of them reviewed the previous visits of various officials, and made the statement that they were all untruthful, using the short and ugly term usually tabooed in parliamentaiy proceedings. In my letter of January 19, 1911, I advised the office that I had not yet suggested the compromise outlined to the Indians, and that I would not do so until I was advised that it would meet with the approval of the office. Under date of February 10, 1911, the office advised me of its approval, and the Indians have been with great difficulty induced to accept it and are now anxiously waiting for its consummation. In office letter of March 21, 1911. the office states : " It will prove advisable, therefore, to advise the Camp McDowell Indians as early as practicable that the office is not considering at this time a proposition to allot in severalty the lands within their reserve." expen;dituk?s in the intebiob de?ae.tment. 307 I have not yet followed the suggestion of the office, an(J this letter is written in order more fully to advise the office of the exact conditions. I would ear- nestly request that Mr. Gundierson's recommendation, contained in his report of February 23, 1911, be adopted, if possible, as I am satisfied that any further effort to induce these Indians to take allotments as contemplated in office letter of November 14, 1910, will not prove effectual at this time. Respectfully, Chas. B. Roblin, Special Allotting Agent. May 4, 1911. ; Mr. Charles E. Roblin, Special Allotting Agent, Scottsdale, Ariz. Sie: It appearing from your letter of April 8, 1911, that field work on the Indian reservations in Arizona during the summer in making allotments will be practically impossible, on receipt of this letter you are hereby directed to close up your work there, proceeding to the Fort Peck Reservation, Mont., for the purpose of assisting Mr. Campbell in completing the allotment work on that reservation, under instructions heretofore issued to you and that officer. Your recommendations regarding the allotment of the Camp McDowell Indians contained In your letter of April 20, 1911, will be given careful consideration. As it will be necessary to suspend allotment work within these reservations during the summer, definite instructions will not be issued to you at this time. Respectfully, C. F. Hatjke, Second Assistant Convmissioner. A copy of this letter has been furnished both Superintendent Coe, of the Camp McDowell School, and Special Allotting Agent Charles E. Roblin for their information. Either Mr. Coe or Mr. Roblin will advise you of the date that that officer leaves Arizona for the Fort Peck Reservation, so that you may properly take him up on your pay rolls. Respectfully, C. F. Haukb, Second Assistant Commissioner. (Carbon to superintendent Camp McDowell, Special Allotting Agent Charles B. Roblin.) Mat 8, 1911. Mr. C. B. LOHMILLEE, Superintendent Fort Peck Indian School, Poplar, Mont. SiH : By letter dated May 4, 1911, Special Allotting Agent Charles B. Roblin was directed to close up field work in Arizona under present instructions and proceed to the Fort Peck Reservation, Mont., for the purpose of assisting Mr. Campbell in completing the allotment work there. Mr. Roblin's commission as a special allotting agent is sufficient authority to enable payment of his per diem while on duty, and you will accordingly take him up on your pay rolls from the date he leaves Arizona for the Fort Peck Reservation. A voucher covering Mr. Roblin's traveling expenses from Arizona to the Fort Peck Reservation should be submitted through you for approval and authority to settle. ,Mr» Latimer. It appears from that file, Mr. Valentine, that your superintendent, Mr. Coe, your allotting agent specially sent to this Territory for allotment, Mr. Eoblin, and your inspector, or, at least, the inspector of the Interior Department, Mr. Linnen, sent especially in reference to the allotment question, all recommended an allotment of Camp McDowell Reservation to these Mohave Apache Indians residing thereon, as well as the allotment of their 5 acres for them on Salt River. Have you any knowledge of that report coming to your information ? Mr. Vaeentinb. No, sir. i 308 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Latimer. On the outside of that file I notice the file stamp, " Final action taken ; date of action, April 1, 1911." What is the significance of that ? Mr. Valentine. That means that whatever letters are necessary to be written by the administration divisions in carrying out the sug- gestions of the inspection report, in so far as it has been decided to carry them out, have been written and action taken. ]Vu". George. I want to ask Mr. Valentine if any reply has yet been made by the Geological Survey in respect to the examination of the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Valentine. I think not. I was told at the office this morning that the statement in the letter which was read here, or to which I referred here, that the Geological Survey would be asked to make such a report, but that the request had not yet been made. My understanding was, as I think I testified, that it had been made. Meritt informed me this morning that that request for examination is now being written. Mr. George. By whom will that be written — by you ? Mr. Valentine. .By our office. Mr. George. Not by you personally? Mr. Valentine. No; I write no letters myself, at all, except very occasionally. Mr. George. You sign letters? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. George. And that would go through one of your subor- dinates ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. It would not be a matter brought up to me at all in the regular course of business. We have been advised informally by the Geological Survey already that there were no water-power sites. That advice came over the telephone; and the next step was to ask them about the mineral deposits. The Chairman. At McDowell? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Do I understand from your answer to Mr. George's question that you follow a practice of not writing letters in the busi- ness of your department? Mr. Valentine. Yes; the practice is that I do not write letters. The Chairman. That is followed to the extent that it is the excep- tion and not the rule if you do at any time write a letter? Mr. Valentine. I do not suppose I write — it is a little dangerous to name averages — two or three letters a week myself. The Chairman. There is another matter I want to mention to the committee. It seems to me we are imposing a hardship upon Mr. Leupp in bringing him here day after day, and I want to ask him whether it is at all probable that if we go into any other reservation matter, his recollection would aid him any. Mr. Leupp. In any case. It would in this case if some particular feature had been dramatic enough. The Chairman. Do you think your recollection would be better with reference to any of the other reservations than it has been with reference to this one? Mr. Leupp. Very probably, sir, because this seems to have gone from me entirely, although I remember now what was going on at the time. BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 309 The Chairman. I think under the circumstances we would hardly be justified in keeping Mr. Leupp, although we had some assurance he could give us some information ; but I will say this, that the hear- ings will get to him wherever he is, and if any matters occur iri them which he thinks he ought to point out we will be glad at any time to hear from him. I feel, however, we are imposing upon him now in bringing him here day after day and keeping him in this indefinite way. In that event, I suppose he might be allowed to follow the bent of his inclination. Mr. Leupp. That is entirely agreeable, Mr. Chairman. Mr. George. I would like to ask a question. It may seem a little bit personal, but inasmuch as Mr. Leupp has been on the stand for three days before this committee Mr. Leupp (interrupting). Four days. Mr. George. Four days — and much testimony that I for one had hoped would be forthcoming has not been forthcoming — and it ap- pears that his illness had prevented him from recollecting that tes- timony. I would like, if you please, Mr. Leupp, to know what kind of illness that was. Mr. Leupp. Complete nervous breakdown.. Mr. George. When was that? Mr. Leupp. It began in the fall, I think, of 1908, when I first placed myself under a physician's care and was warned then I must get out of ofiice. Mr. George. You were commissioner at that time? Mr. Leupp. I was commissioner at that time; yes, sir. The doctor said he would not be responsible for my life if I continued in office. I was very anxious, before coming out, to' finish one or two things that I had in mind. One of them was the establishment of a medical service on a broader scale than had ever been attempted before, and there were some school questions that I wanted to have settled before I went out. I set myself in the beginning of my career in the Indian Service to do a number of things that I wanted to do, and these still remained, with one or two others of less importance, and against the advice of my family and in defiance of my physician's orders, I continued in office and went over to the next spring. Then I resigned on the 4th of March, and Mr. Taft asked me if I would stay in office. I told him I would stay as long as my health would permit, but it was ex- tremely doubtful how long I could hold out. I then tried, by advice, to patch up a little by going down into the Southwest, where the cli- mate was mild, and I thought I could take life a little bit easier there and still continue my work. I went down. I spent two weeks at Riverside school, and another two weeks Mr. George (interrupting). Where is that? Mr. Leupp. That is in southern California; and another two or three weeks at Phoenix, and I found I had to be on my back all the while. I attempted to get to one or tAvo other points. I went to an- other point on the Pima Reservation, but there I could not stay longer than a couple of days, and was on my back all the time I was there. When I got back here, I saw Secretary Ballinger as quick as I could, and had one or two last interviews with him, and by arrange- ment we saw the President as to my going out. 31P EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBEIOE D^AB-IMENT. Mr. George. You were unable to do any work at that time? Mr. Leupp. I did any work that I could carry along in the condir tion in which I was. Mr. George. I mean any writing at all ? Mr. Letjpp. No, sir. Mr. George. Any magazine writing ? Mr. Leupp. No, sir; I was obliged then to give up practically everything of that kind. I did one magazine article that was ordered of me a long time in advance, and I had promised it. That I wrote, I think, in the winter. Mr. George. What magazine was that for ? Mr. Letjpp. That was for the Outlook. President Roosevelt h^,^ asked me to write it. After I got out of office I asked the doctor about continuing to do any kind of work. He said if I could do some kind of work that would not tax me, I could do it in a gentle way, but not more than an hour or so at one time. Then I did some magazine w;ork — three or four articles — fluring the summer, and fall; and I worked a little on a book, and always with some difficulty, being obliged to hunt up my authorities on every subject specifically, because I could not be sure. Mr. George. When did you find you became cloudy abojit thmgs? Mr. Letjpp. It would be by fits and starts. It was a very fitful thing. Some days I would get extremely doubtful. My memory would seem clear about things that had occurred quite a distance back when I would still be hazy about very recent things. I got a little alarmed about it, and I did not know how far it was going, and he told me it was one of the phenomena of my trouble. K con- tinued for some time — really I have not got on a good footing in tHaj; respect at the present day. I do a certain amount of work right along, but it is not in the line of things I have to chase down. The Chairman. Mr. Leupp will be excused for the present under the conditions I speak of. He can leave word here where he wishes the reports forwarded from day to day. Mr. Letjpp. Yes ; I have given my address to the clerk. Mr. Latimer. I have one or two more questions before we adjourn, Mr. Chairman. Now, Mr. Valentine, in one of the letters introduced at the hearing yesterday, which was written in reference to the introduction of Mr. Graham's bill in the House of Eepresentatives, there was a state- ment that certain telegrams had been sent to Arizona from your office. Will you kindly have search made for all the telegrams sent pertaining to that subject and let me have them? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. I do not find that the record seems clear on the ?uestion of the work of the Reclamation Service which is performed or your department. As I understand it, you have the Reclama- tion Service take charge of your larger projects, but in such instances they are always paid by your office. Is that correct ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; that is correct — that is, the work is paid for by our office. I do not recall just exactly the accounting measure under which that Js done. , Mr. Latimer. The Reclamation Service has charge of the entire Salt River project, in which project is embraced all lands of the Salt River Reservation, has it not! EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT.^ 311 Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. In this particular instance, who, if any one, in your department looks after the interests of the Indians ? Mr. Valentine. I think Mr. Code was there a good deal of the time, and of course the local superintendents." Mr. Latimer. Also whom? Mr. Valentine, Mr. Code, the irrigation engineer. Mr. Latimer. You said something about superintendents. Mr. Valentine. Also the local superintendents. Mr. Latimer. Has Mr. Code in such an instance authority over the reclamation engineers ? Mr. Valentijve. None whatever, sir; but he could, as an inspector, and it would be his duty to do so, report to me anything that he thought they were doing that was not absolutely for the best interests of the Indians — I mean by that simply that they not being imme- diately in touch with the Indians' affairs, and he being in touch would know more about them than they would. Mr. Latimer. Of course, I perhaps did not understand your testi- mony yesterday. Do I understand your position to be that it is Mr. Code's business to, and he did, look after the interests of the Salt Eiver Reservation in reference to this Salt River project? Mr. Valentine. No; I could not put it that way. I should say that just as an inspector, while he had no administrative charge of the Salt River project, as our irrigation engineer, he would keep us informed of such conditions as he found when he visited there. Mr. Latimer. Were the plans of the Reclamation Service in regard to the project submitted to him, and things of that character ? Mr. Valentine. I think that is very likely, both here and in the field. Mr. Latimer. Have you any knowledge at all with reference to how the interests of the Indians were looked after, except by the reclamation people themselves? Mr. Valentine. Most distinctly by our local superintendents. That would be a part of their duty. Mr. Latimer. The local superintendent, then, was a man who looked after the water rights and irrigation rights of the Indians in the establishment of this Salt River project? Mr. Valentine. I should say so, primarily ; but I think the record shows, as I recall it, that they had been assisted at various times by Mr. Code in his general capacity as chief of our Indian reclamation service. Here is a little history which Mr. Latimer might like to look over, showing the cooperation between the Indian Service and the Reclamation Service. [Handing a pamphlet to Mr. Latimer. J The Chairman. Is there anything further, gentlemen, before we adjourn? Mr. Valentine. I would like some time, at your convenience, to briefly put before the committee something about the volume of work of the Indian Office and the system of handling correspondence there; but it will do just as well at some other time. I think it is necessary for the committee to have it, to understand some of the points that have been raised. Mr. George. That would relate to the matter you spoke of formerly about the method of signing the letters ? 98240— No. 7—11 5 3}:2 EXPENDITURES IN IHE INTBEIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. Yes. I think it very essential for the committee tiQ, understand a little of the interior workings of the Indian Office in that connection. , The Chairman. The hour for adjournment has arrived, gentle- men, and the committee will stand adjourned until 10.30 o'clock to- morrow morning. (Thereupon, at 5.35 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, June 14, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock, a. m.) No. 8 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT or THE HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 14, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPFIOE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Chairman, Illinois. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, JB., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dajkota. WALTER L. HBNSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCahron, Clerk. n EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditures IN THE Interior Department, House op Representatives, Wednesday, June H, 1911. The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present the following members of the committee: Messrs. Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Catlin. There were also present ex-Commissioner of Indian Affairs Fran- cis E. Leupp, Commissioner of Indian Affairs Robert G. Valentine, E. B. Merritt, Esq., Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, Thomas Sur- rama, and Joseph W. Latimer, attorney at law, Chicago, 111. The Chairman. Gentlemen, are we ready to proceed ? Mr. Hensley. Will you excuse me for a while, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, we have not been formally calling the roll. I suppose you note those who are present, showing that there is a quorum ? The Secretart. Yes, sir. The Chairman. All right. Mr. Hensley will be marked present. Mr. Hensley. T will be back shortly. The Chairman. All right. (Mr. Hensley thereupon left the room and subsequently re- turned.) The Chairman. Gentlemen of the committee, Mr. Leupp informs me that he wants the privilege of making an additional statement, an explanatory statement, with reference to some matters .whi6h apear in the printed numbers. We will hear you, Mr. Leupp. ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF MR. FRANCIS E. LEUPP. Mr. Leupp. Mr. Chairman, in looking over the hearing No. 4 I find the passage there on page 90 : Mr. Latimeb The Chairman. On what part of the page is that? Mr. Leupp. It follows the fourth line. It reads : Mr. Latimer. The facts are that there was a large valume of correspondence vigorously protesting against their removal. Mr. Ledtp. Was that directed to Congress? . Mr. Latimer. It was to the Indian Commlsioner. Mr.'LEtrpp. Ton mean from the field? Mr. Latimer. From the field. There was, a large amoiint of correspondence, • and, according to the correspondence, ; you were; there on two or three trips ■ 313 , 314 EXPENDITURES IN XHB INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. looking over the situation and investigating it. As it was only a few years ago I presumed you might have some independent recollection of it. Mr. Letjpp. No, sir. Do you say I was there investigating? Then, later, I say : The only time that I recall being on the Pima Eeservation was the last year I was in office, when I was unable to sit up ; I had to lie down all the time that I was there; I was just holding on, trying to pull through. I think that was the spring of 1909. Now, Mr. Chairman, my recollection is perfectly distinct that I never went to the Pima Reservation but once, and that was the last year I was in office, in the spring. I should be glad to have any cor- respondence that Mr. Latimer has put in evidence, but if it goes back to 1905 or 1906 I think I can explain all the mystification that the committee has been led into on that. My predecessor, Mr. Jones (and that is very distinct in my recollection), went to the Pima Ees- ervation, and I do not know but that he went there two or three times, because the Presbyterian Board of Domestic Missions, I think it was, was very much interested in the Pimas, and had been coni- plaining that Mr. Jones did not appreciate the condition of things on that reservation. Mr. Jones went down there and made a per- sonal trip, and I do not know but that he made more than one, and he made his report, I suppose, to the office. I dare say that the im- pressions I gained of conditions there were from Mr. Jones's report; but as for my personal presence on that reservation, I never was there but that once, in 1909. In 1907 I was at Camp McDowell, driving there from Phoenix. I think I wish to make one further amendment, about a matter re- called to my mind by a picture that I happened to see last night of an open-air schoolhouse, which was undignifiedly designated: "The Commissioner's chicken coop," or " bird cage," or something of that sort. I had set my heart on having some open-air schoolhouses in the southwestern country for the Indian children, for day schools, because I felt that the spread of tuberculosis among them was largely due to bad air. I heard that there was a building such as I had fre- quently described to people as being my ideal schoolhouse, on one of the reclamation-service plants — a big diversion dam. I can not give you the location now, even from the map. On my drive to Fort McDowell and return — I think it was on Sunday morning — I was met by an automobile containing Mr. William H. Cole, our engineer, and an engineer named Hill, whose initials I have forgotten, who was a prominent man connected with the Reclamation Service. They asked me if I would not go over there to this diversion dam, simply as a matter of curiosity, to see what kind of work they were doing. I said I would, and I excused myself to Mr. Goodman, who was my host, and who had me in his carriage, and he drove back and I went with them there, upon the condition that I should be returned to the Phoenix school in time to make an address which I had promised to make to the children. That is the nearest approach to anything that is to be called an investigation that I ever made in that country— and that was on the way between Camp McDowell and Phoenix. If any correspondence indicates that I was investigating that, it is founded upon false premises. I do not know who could have said it. I certainly never said I was investigating it, because I was iiot; and, from my comparative ignorance on the scientific phases of EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. 316 reclamation I should not have been able to tell whether a job was a good one, a poor one, or anything of the kind. I could only look at it as an outeider. If there is any correspondence there that Mr. Latimer would like to put in evidence, I would be glad to give any explanation I can of it ; and I may be able to, after I have read the correspondence. The Chairman. Mr. Latimer, have you in mind at this time the correspondence referred to in the question that has been read? Mr. Latimer. At this time I have not that correspondence where I "believe it is material to go into the question. The question, if I remember what was in my mind at the time, was to endeavor to call something to Mr. Leupp's attention that would refresh his recollec- tion in reference to the facts concerning this reservation. Mr. MoNDELL. The statement was: There was a large amount of correspondence, and according to the corre- spondence you were there on two or three trips looking over the situation and investigating it. That is a statement on the part of Mr. Latimer that there is some correspondence indicating that the commissioner was there. Mr. Leupp. Of course it puts me in the position, from that state- ment of the case, of having this correspondence which came from the office, and for which I was responsible, and which I know abso- lutely nothing of. The Chairman. Was there any other matter, Mr. Leupp, that you wanted to refer to? Mr. Leupp. No, sir. I simply leave it to the sense of justice of the committee as to getting that correspondence out, so that I will have a chance to know what Mr. Latimer had in mind. The Chairman. Well, of course, Mr. Latimer has had a great many things in mind since this occurred, and you could hardly expect him to anticipate your request at this moment. Mr. Leupp. No. I will leave it with you, to be taken up at any time you wish. The Chairman. If there is nothing further, we will proceed with' the regular order. STATEMENT OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE, COMMISSIONER OF INDIAN AFFAIRS— Continued. The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Mr. Valentine, in your testimony yesterday you wanted Dr. Montezuma to explain why he had not taken up this McDowell question with you, personally, I believe? Mr. Valentine. I should like to have him do so, although I did not really intend to make that request. I simply commented on my surprise that he had not. Mr. Latimer. If, as a matter of fact, it was a subject on which Sec- retary Ballinger had written the doctor, and the doctor had written the Secretary — had also sent several letters, all addressed to the honorable Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and had also received several letters on the subject from your office signed by your assistant commissioner in reply — would you not feel that he could safely assume it had been brought to your attention? ^16' expetstditubes In the interior department. Mr. Valentine. I think a kindergarten knowledge of. the way the Indian OflGice has to be run under what the G&ngress provides for if would show you, or Dr. Montezuma, that he could hot make, safdy,. ally such assumption. Mr. Latimer. Have you any personal acquaintanceship wi'th the doctor that would lead you to feel that he should have taken it up with you personally? Mr. Valentine. That is a rather duplex question, Mr. Latimer. I have no personal acquaintance with the doctor. So far as I know, I never saw him until I saw him in this committee room. I have not, even yet, been introduced to him. The other end of your question would be that, with a man holding an official position, personarl ac- quaintance is not necessary in order to make an appeal to right an alleged wrong. Mr. Latimer. You feel that it is true that a letter addressed to you personally as Indian Commissioner would reach your attention, where a letter addressed to the honorable Indian Commissioner would not reach your attention ? Mr. Valentine. It is my direction when I am in the office to have, as far as possible, all letters addressed to me by name — that is, E. G. Valentine — brought to my secretary's desk. As I have been substan- tially without a secretary for a number of months I would not vouch for the fact of that having been done, but I try to see everything that comes in to me, by name, or at least have it looked over by some- body in whom I can trust. Mr. Latimer. I offer a letter from the Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., July 11, 1910, addressed to Hon. Commis- sioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C, signed by Charles E. Coe, and a letter dated July 26, 1910, addressed to Charles E. Coe, Esq., superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., signed by C. F. Hauke, and ask you to look at these, Mr. Valentine, and state if they are from your office. Mr. Valentine (after examining the letters referred to). Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. The letters read as follows : July 26, 1910. Chakles E. Coe, Esq., Superintrmlcni Camp McDoirell Itidian School. McDoivcIl, Ariz. Sir: The office lias rfeceived your letter of July 11, 1010, regarding the survey of the liind selected by the Camp McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reserva- tion. You ask if the office will send some one to do this worli. or if you should have it done by a local surveyor, the estimated cost of which you say will amount to about 3(225. It will not be necepsary to survey the tentative assignments of land made by you to tlie Camp McI>owell Indians who remove to the Salt River Reservation. This can be done when an allotting agent is directed to make the allotments in severalty. SuperAisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson has been directed previously to visit the Pima School, Ariz., in order to look over tlie allotment situation under the jurisdiction of the Pima Indian Seliool. As the Salt Biver Reservation up to a sliort time ago was formerly under the Pima Indian' School, Mr. Gunderson under previous instructions should visit also and report on the allotment work on the Salt River Reservation. A carbon copy of this letter will be forwarded to Supervisor of AHottfllg Agents Gunderson, who, when he reaches this reservation, will dlBcnss witli you fully the best method of making these tentative assignments of lasud and the advisability of taking up the allotment work in severalty -at an early date. Very respectfully, C. F. HATJfiiS, Second Assistant Commissioner. EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTEEIOa DEPABXMBNT. SIT, Dbpabtment of thjb Ijstebiob, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, M'cDoweU, Aris:, July 11, Wl'O CaMMisMONEit OF Indian Affacbs, Washington, D. C. Sib: I have been steadily working on the problem of removing the Indians from Camp McDowell to farming lands on the Salt Eiver Reservation. The Indians themselves are generally bitterly opposed to the move. There are a few families, however, that are ready to go aS soon as it can be arranged. I think there will be about 30 persons make the change, of which 10 will be adult men. I have taken this matter up with the district court, the water commissioner, and the officials of the Reclamation Service. The court will order as muck of the 390 inches of water that these Indians have at Camp McDowell as is necessary to be diverted from the Arizona CanE^l to such lands on the Salt River Reservation as may be selected. Mr. Hill of the Reclamation Service says he will put in a concrete head gate and a water meter for these Indians upon application. The next step will be to test the land for depth of soil, alkali, etc. After that the lauds selected will have to be surveyed. Will your office send some one to do this or shall we have it done by a local surveyor? I have estimated that it will cost about $225 to have the surveying done by local parties. When the lands have been definitely selected, I think it will be necessary to list them with the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association. Practically all the lands entitled to water uuder the Sal River irrigation project, including the Pima's lands on Salt River Reservation, have been so listed. This asso- ciation is recognized by the Reclamation Service as representing the water users, and all business with the water users will be done through the associa- tion. By listing the lands the Indians will enjoy the same rights and get the same protection that any other water users get. It seems to me that under the decree of the district court, the McDowell Indians right to use water is rather precarious and if by listing their lands with the association we can put them in the class A lands that we should do so. It may save expensive litigation at some future lime when there might be a scarcity of water. It will cost about $1 per acre to list the land if it is done soon. I presume the department will have to pay the annual assessments against the land to pay for the Roosevelt Dam, maintenance charges, etc. Very respectfully Charles B. Coe, Superintendent. I call your attention to that portion of Mr. Coe's letter just intro- duced, in which Mr. Coe states that these lands have not yet been surveyed nor tested for alkali, etc., and ask you how an Indian could select with any certainty without those preliminaries having been arranged ? Mr. Valentine. He could not. Mr. Latimer. In view of this fact, how do you explain that part of the statement made by you on page 18 of your annual report for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1910 [reading] : Camp McDowell Indians who took allotments at Salt River. How could they at that time have taken any allotments when, on July 11, 1910, in accx)rdance with this letter, the preliminaries had not yet been arranged ? Mr. Valentine. They could have taken them, but, as I have just said, not with the certainty of having the land that would ultimately be of the best benefit for them. Mr. MoNDELL. That is, the allotment might not be perfected until such time; in fact, the allotment could not be perfected, of course, until the land was surveyed. Mr. Valentine. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. And that you would not perfect the allotment until all the necessary examinations had been made. 818 EXPENDITtTEES IK THE INTEKIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. We should be very derelict in our duty if we did. Mr. MoNDELL,. Have you any knowledge or information with re- gard to the character of those lands especially ? Mr. Valentine. No more than I would get in just driving over them, and I do not think I have been up on that part of the reserva- tion. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it your impression that any of those lands are alkaline to such an extent as to render them valueless for agricultural purposes or of but little value ? Mr. Valentine. As I recall it, in driving over that country one frequently comes upon some quite white patches of alkali, and there well might be certain sections that would even appear on the surface of the ground as undesirable for allotment. What the character is in that particular region I do not know. Mr. MoNDELL. And this same character of land is being irrigated in the Valley of the Salt, is it not ? Mr. Valentine. Most decidedly. The bulk of it is unquestionably most valuable for farming purposes. Mr. George. But assuming that it is the same kind of land as that in the valley of the Salt, is it the same kind of land that is in the Pima Reservation, where they were intending to use the Gila water and pumped water to clear the land of alkaliY Mr. Valentine. I should assume that there were probably quite definite geological differences, for the reason that the land lies in quite a different area ; but of course the testimony of the Geological Survey would be the quickest way for the committee to get accurate information on that point, Mr. Mondell. You have no knowledge of any claim by anyone that these lands are unfit for agricultural purposes by reason of their being alkaline, have you? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. I do not yet quite understand, Mr. Valentine, how, in the condition of these lands, and according to Mr. Coe's letter, there could be any kind of a specific selection for the purpose of allotment. Mr. Valentine I have only, of course, heard Mr. Coe's letter as you read it. Mr. Latimer. Would you prefer to read it? You may, if yon wish. Mr. Valentine. No ; not at all. I simply mean that I have made no study of this question. As I answered Mr. Mondell, I have never heard of any doubt, or what would amount to a general reflection of any chaiacter, cast on the desirability of this land for farming purposes. On the contrary, I have reason to believe that it is con- sidered very valuable. Mr. Latimer. My question has nothing whatever to do with that, Mr. Valentine. Mr. Valentine. Will you kindly repeat the question ? (At the request of Mr. Latimer the stenographer read as follows:) Mr. Latimer. I do not yet quite uuderstand, Mr. Valentine, hovf; in the con- dition of these lands, and according to Mr. Coe's letter, there could be any kind of a specific selection for the purpose of allotment. EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPABTMBNT. 319 Mr. Valentine. Now, will you kindly reread from Mr. Coe's letter the particular statement on which you base that question ? Mr. Latimer. It was covered by my previous question to you, Mr. Valentine, in which I asked you how an Indian could select with any certainty any land that had not been surveyed, or was in the condition that Mr. Coe's letter set forth. Mr. Coe's letter referring to that particular portion is as follows : The next step will be to test the Innd for depth of soil, alkali, etc. After that the lands selected will have to be surveyed. As I read that — The lands selected will have to be surveyed — I judge he means that they have not, as yet, even been positively selected — ■ Will your office send some one to do this or shall we have it done by a local surveyor? I have estimated that it will cost about $225 to have the surveying done by local parties. When the lands have been definitely selected, I think it will be necessary to list them with the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association. I think that portion covers the question. Mr. Valentine. I see nothing in Mr. Coe's statement about the question of testing the lands for depth of soil and quantity of alkali, reflecting seriously in any way upon the quality of the land, or indi- cating what he expects to find. ^ Mr. Latimer. That is not what I am trying to get at. That is simply one condition. The survey is another condition, and the gen- eral unpreparedness of knowing just what land was going to be selected, as I interpret Mr. Coe's letter. Under such conditions, how could the Indians have taken land there a month previously for allotment? How could they have taken the allotments? Mr. Valentine. It is quite clear to me how they might. Ideally it would be better to wait until one was scientifically sure of every point ; but there would be nothing in the selection of land in an area generally fit for farming that could not be rectified if a mistake were made before the final approval of the schedule. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it not a fact, Mr. Valentine, that in all probabil- ity the Indians would prefer to select their areas and have stakes placed upon them, as was contemplated by the correspondence we have had before us? Would they not prefer to have the areas se- lected by them staked rather than to have the land surveyed in squares, and then be compelled to select by the lines of the survey? If they selected in the former way of course the survey then would simply be the final measurement and platting that would serve as a record in the Land Office, which could be followed in retracing the lines in the future. Mr. Valentine. "Well, of course the Land Office always, owing to the amount of work involved, feels that unless there is some very important reason in a particular case, an allotment should conform to a subdivision of a regular survey line. Mr. MoNDELL. I understand that. Mr. Valentine. Consequently, as I think I said in my testimony the first day, Mr. Latimer is entirely right and eminently reasonable in pointing out that it would be very much better to have a survey before even tentative allotments were made. I made that point my- self earlier. 3'20 EXPENDITTJEES KfT THE INTBRIOB. DBPAKTME-NT. Mr. MoNDELL. But it is by no means essential. Mr. Valentike. By no means essential. The Chairman, was it usual, Mr. Valentine, to make altotments or hasve the Indians choose the allotments before any survey was madie of the ground ? Mr. Valentine. As I explained to the committee the other day, it has frequently been the case because of not having a survey, and be- cause of the importance of getting the Indians started. The Chairman. Do you remember any reservation where that course was followed? Mr. Valentine. I pointed out to the committee the San Juan country, where that has been done. But please do not misunderstand me. Mr. Latimer is most right in his contention. The Chairman. Your first answers to him did not indicate, as I understood them, that you thought so, and that is what makes me pursue the question a bit now. Mr. Valentine. I think a reading of the record will clear that up. The Chairman. I am glad if I am mistaken about it. Mr. Latimer. So am I. Mr. Valentine. I should like to say, too, that in a case of this kind I should consider the survey as one of the preliminaries to the allotment. The Chairsian. There could be no allotting done without a sur- vey, could there? Mr. Valentine. There could be no absolute, definite drawing of the lines. The Chairman. The mere setting of stakes at the corners as sug- gested would fix no one's rights. Mr. Valentine. Not absolutely ; but it is entirely conceivable by me that if it is wise for these Indians to take lands on the Salt River Reservation, it is also wise that they should do so at as early a day as practicable, and it might well be that they could take tentative allot- ments there ahead of the survey, the absolutely correct lines to be drawn later. The Chairman. Are those alkaline strips that you spoke of a _ while ago of large extent or small? Mr. Valentine. The ones I have seen are rather small. Of course they vary a little in different parts of the country. The Chairman. Suppose that the staking out of a particular allot- ment excluded a strip of this alkaline land, and that an Indian chose an allotment with the alkaline strip excluded, and on the survey it appeared that the alkaline strip or part of it would come within his allotment. Would he be satisfied ? Mr. Valentine. He certainly would not be. The Chairman. A white man would not. Mr. Valentine. An Indian would not, and an allotting agent who would let him be satisfied would be most derelict in his duty. The Chairman. In other words, in making those tentative allot- ments by staking, in many instances if the survey changed the tenta- tive boundaries would not the person who chose the allotment be very greatly dissatisfied, and would it not result in serious trouble— in fact in practically rechoosing" or reallotting? Mr. Valentine. I do not think EXEMBffiaETirKBS IN THE INTEKIOE JKEPAllTMElSrT. 321 The Chairman. Or would the bureau force the first choice on the Indian whether he liked it or not f Mr. Valentine. I think the implication in that qnestion, Mr. Chairman, is quite unfair, I must say. The Ghairjvtan. In what way ? Mr. Valentine. To imply that the bureau would force an allot- ment. The Chairman. There was no implication in it at all. It was simply a question: Would the bureau do it? There is no implica- tion in it. Mr. Valentine. The answer, to my mind, is so self-evident that it would not, that I can hardly conceive the reason for asking the question. The Chairman. What, then, would be gained by the tentative allotments ? Mr. Valentine. The gain would be in getting the Indian started at a place that is to be the basis of industrial support for him in the future, and I called to your attention the importance of haiste in that matter. The Chairman. When you consider the possible trouble that would come out of mistakes such as I indicate, and the possible can- cellation of the whole tentative scheme, would there be anything gained? Would it not be wiser, rather, to wait until the survey was made and the specific allotments pointed out permanently? Mr. Valentine. I can not help thinking that, as a rule — this might be an exception; I am not prepared to say — there would be a great deal gained, for the reason that I think the chairman exaggerates the amount of trouble that woiild ensue. My own judgment would not coincide with j-^ours. The Chairman. It is a question of opinion, I suppose, as to whether there would be trouble, or how much trouble? Mr. Valentine. Precisely. The Chairman. But there might be? Mr. Valentine. There might be some trouble, but I do not con- ceive of much. The Chairman. Did the desire of the bureau to get the McDowell Indians off of the McDowell Reservation and onto the Salt River Reservation have anything to do with inducing them to choose ten- tative allotments? Mr. Valentine. I am afraid I can not answer your question quite as you put it. You state the desire of the bureau to get the Indians off of the McDowell Reservation. If by that you mean to have them take irrigable allotments on Salt River, it is quite conceivable to me that the desire to have them do that may have included in it a good deal of haste in pressing the matter with the Indians. The Chairman. At this time, do you know what the character of the homes which the Indians upon the reservation now occupy is? Do you know what kind of buildings they live in, or do they live in buildings? Mr. Valentine. Well, I would like to say in answering the ques- tion, first, that from what I have seen of the record since I have been before the committee, a good many of the homes, as I understand it, are wliat we call wickiups — brush shelters ; and my impression is that 322 BXPBNDITTJEES IN THE INTBEIOR DEPARTMENT. they have comparatively little in the way of frame dwellings; I have tried to answer your question first. I would like to add to it, however, that as this record has been before the committee — and I have not seen it, except in these fragments, either while it has been before the committee or at any time in the past — I am not nearly as good a witness as the record itself. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner The Chaieman. Just a moment, Mr. Mondell, if you please. Let me pursue that question a little further. From the correspondence already in the record I gather that it was not the intention that the Indians should have two homes, one on the Salt River Reservation and one on the McDowell. Am I right in that? Mr. Valentine. I should judge so, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. And that it was the intention, as far as the cor- respondence shows it, that the home would be on the Salt River and that the McDowell would be reserved for pasture land ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know that I would wholly assent to that, although the record leaves it a little vague as to which it would be. The Chairman. I assume, as he was expected to cultivate the irri- gated 5-acre allotment on the Salt River, and the other was only to be pasture land, that common sense and common reason would lead one to infer that he would live where he worked, and that his occa- sional visits would be to the pasture land. Mr. Valentine. If it were merely pasture land; but I see no reason, as I have already explained to the committee, why he could not have his home where it is now, if he wants it, and still cultivate his land below. The Chairman. Did the bureau in its efforts to induce him to accept the allotments have any specific intent one way or the other as to where his home would be? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge that would enable me to answer that question, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Who would have? Mr. Valentine. "Whoever passed on the matter, if it came up as a matter of policy. The Chairman. Are the bureau's affairs managed in such a way that that question of policy would not necessarily reach the head of the bureau ? Mr. Valentine. As I have already explained to the committee, in a matter of this kind, a question of policy might well be decided by one of my assistant commissioners. The Chairman. Without your knowledge? Mr. Valentine. If I were away ; yes, sir. The Chairman. And when you returned? Mr. Valentine. It might be brought to my attention. It would depend on their judgment as to its importance. The Chairman. But it would only be under such circumstances as you describe that that would occur — that is, if it came up and was passed upon during your absence ? Mr. Valentine. It might possibly have been passed on while I was at the office. I am frequently very much engaged before the Appropriations Committee, in which case the 500 or so letters a day have to go out of the office just the same. The Chairman. In that event, is there any particular person who assumes the responsibility in your absence as assistant ? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 323 Mr. Valentine. Either of the assistant commissioners who han- dled the case. The Chairman. And they would doubtless decide in conformity with what they knew to be your established policy ? Mr. Valentine. They would, most decidedly, if they were true to the policy of the office as they understood it. The Chairman. And if there was a question that had not arisen theretofore, if it were a new question, would they not in some way confer with you as to the proper policy to adopt? Mr. Valentine. They most decidedly should. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Valentine, this map [indicating] indicates that most, if not all, of the lands on the Salt River Indian Reservation under the Arizona Canal have been surveyed and subdivided. Town- ship 2 north of the Arizona base and range 5 east of the Gila and Salt River meridian has evidently been fully subdivided, while the township lying directly east of it has probably been subdivided, so far as the southern half, which includes the lands under the Arizona Canal, is concerned. The only incomplete portion of that seems to be the north boundary of the township. From this map, then, it would seem that those lands had been surveyed and subdivided officially. What do you know in regard to that ? Mr. Valentine. Your position would appear to be even more correct from this blueprint [producing a blueprint] which indicates the Mr. MoNDELL. The blueprint that you now present for our con- sideration shows that not only have these lands been surveyed and subdivided by the rectangular system which is used on all public lands, but that the lands on the Camp McDowell Reservation have been so surveyed and subdivided. Mr. Valentinjb. It does, sir. The Chairman. At what date ? Mr. MoNDELL. There is nothing on either of these maps to show the date of the survey ; but the map of the General Land Office, which indicates that the lands have been surveyed is of date of 1909. Mr. George. And that letter is dated 1910. The Chairman. How could it happen, Mr. Valentine, if there were such a survey as Mr. Mondell points out, that the correspondence from your office does not indicate a knowledge of it ? Mr. Valentine. I think probably the misunderstanding in the mind of the comittee would arise here. Very likely Mr. Coe means there that they were to be given 5 acres apiece, and the actual sub- division into 5-acre tracts had not yet been made. Mr. Mondell. The land had been surveyed and subdivided into sections. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. With the ordinary section and quarter corners or half-mile posts; and, of course, from those corners — one on each corner of the sections — the quarter corners on the boundary lines — the Indian could, with ordinary chain measurements, indicate ap- proximately his 5-acre area. Mr. Valentine. ,0h^ easily. Mr, Mondell. But in order to have that established v^ith absolute accuracy, so that it could go on the land office records, it would re- quire a survey that could be recognized as official. ;3f24 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Valentine. Correct. Mr. MoNDELL. So that the surveys referred to are simply the'ofiGia,! subdivisions? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chaikman. That question implies as a fact that the other survey was made, as Mr. Mondell states from the maps. Mr. Valen- tine, do you now state that that is true ? Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge, sir, except from these mags. If my answers are lacking in fullness, it is because, as I understand it, the committee wants me to testify as to what I know ; and it is not with any desire not to help the committee out in finding out the facts. The Chairman. My question was asked with this object. While you make very clear to Mr. Latimer and myself only such facts as you have personal knowledge of, yet when Mr. MondeU asks you regarding those matters you fall in with him. What I want to know is what tne real facts are that you do know. Mr. Valentine. There has been no purpose in my mind to fall in with Mr. Mondell any more than with you. The Chairman. You have informed us, in connection with his proposition now, that these maps show there had been a survey of the sections, which would mean, of course, an official survey, prior to the time we are speaking of, and that the section lines being established, it would be easy to measure from them and establish with reasonable . accuracy the 5-acre allotments. Mr. Valentine. Because until The Chairman. Now, I ask you were the section lines established by the official survey, and you tell me that you do not know, so I am perfectly at sea as to what the real situation is, as your testimQnjy shows it. Mr. Mondell. I assume that what we want here is the fact. Here is a map published by the Federal Government, and in the usual form, signed by the Chief of the Drafting Division, as provided by law, and dated 1909, of course including data which was obtained prior to that time. It shows that these lands have been surveyed in the usual way. Here is a map of the Salt River and Camp McDowell Indian Reservations, Ariz., date not given, which also shows in greater de- tail than this map of the State can the complete survey and subdivi- sion of all these lands under the rectangular system of the Govern- ment. It is very clear. The Chairman. If in any ordinary proceeding these were being offered as evidence, there would have to be some proof that they were what they purport to be. Mr. Mondell. Is this a court of law, Mr. Chairman ? The Chairman. No. If it were, from what you said the other day you could not appear in it. Mr. Mondell. The way some of the proceedings have been going, I should not care to. Mr. Valentine. I could hardly be called upon — - Mr. Catlin. I do not think we should draw the line so very definitely. Mr. Mondell. I offer as evidence, then, the official United States ^maps showing that these lands have been surveyed. If anyone has any doubt on that question, we will put the maps in. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPAETJVEENT. 325 The Cja^iEMAN. This one, of course [indicatiiigil, could go in, but it would be of no value unless the date is fixed, Svowiing tliat it was made prior to the time tiiat the controversy hinges oji now. Mr. Mondell. We could find out in 10 minutes, Mr. Chairman, when that survey was made by simply teLephoDoing. Tiie Chairman. Would not that be the best thing to do, then? Mr. Mondell. It was clearly made before, 1909. Mr. Catlin* Which map are you referriiig to? Mr. Mondell. This one [indicating]. The Chairman. The one in my hand is dated 1909. Mr. Latimer. Have you any knowledge as to when the survey was made of the land in question, which, I understand, is the land selected for allotment in the Salt Eiver Reservation for the Camp McDowell Indians! Mr. Valentine. I have no knowledge of that. Mr. Latimer. Can you not easily ascertain that by reference in your office ? Mr. Valentine. I should refer that to the General Land Office, which makes all these surveys. The Indian Office does not make them. Mr. Latimer. For your information, I would state that the corre- spondence would indicate that that survey was made in February of this year. Mr. Valentine. Of course, you have the advantage of me, because you have the correspondence before you and I have not. Mr. Latimer. I am only suggesting that, because you have Mr. Mondell (interposing). What survey do you say was made in _ February of this year ? Mr. Latimer. The survey of the lands in the Salt River Reserva- tion that have been selected for the purpose of placing on them the Camp McDowell Indians. Mr. Mondell. Do you mean the survey of the section lines or the subdivisions into 5-acre tracts? Mr. Latimer. I presume the subdivision into 5-acre tracts. I do not think there is any question but what there has been a sui'vey of these lands, as far as the section lines are concerned. The Chairman. The reporter will mark those. Mr. Mondell. I think it is hardly necessary for us to print the map in the record. I do not think anyone denies the accuracy of the map. The Chairman. It would be very difficult. Mr. Mondell. I do not think it is necessary. Mr. Latimer sug- gests, himself, that there is no question about those lands having been surveyed under the ordinary rectangular system. Mr. Latimer. So far as the section survey is concerned, I do not think there is any question about it. I am inclined to think the suggestion I just made to Mr. Valentine might cover your point also. The Chairman. What was your suggestion ? Mr. Latimer. That he examine the records and ascertain when the survey was made for the purpose of locating the Camp Mc- Dowell Indians upon the Salt River Reservation. The Chairman. That is, the official survey? Mr. Latimer. Yes. 326 EXPENDirUEBS IN THE INTEEIOB DEPAKTMENT. Mr. George. Did Mr. Valentine so understand, that he was to look at the Indian Office records ? Mr. Vauintine. I have already given Mr. Meritt directions so to do, Mr. George. Mr. George. I would like to ask a question. I do not quite yet understand the necessity for this urgency about dividing up the land of the Salt Eiver Eeservation. Why was that so pressing? Why should the McDowell Indians receive that land ? Why should there be any temporary work on the part of the Indian Office? Mr. Valentine. I know of no way to answer that Mr. George (continuing). As early as 1910. I have forgotten the date, but it appears all through the correspondence. Mr. Valentine. I know of no way to answer that, Mr. George, except that the office is putting forth every possible effort in connec- tion with the health affairs of the Indians, and to get them indus- trially settled. Every month that the matter of where they are to live permanently is held up in the air is a great loss to the Indians. Mr. George. Would there be permanency in the McDowell reser- vation also ? Mr. Valentine. If it is desirable for the McDowell Indians to have this land on the Salt River, it can not be given to them too soon for their own industrial welfare. Mr. George. But it might be too soon if it involved confusion in their getting it permanently. Mr. Valentine. If the confusion is as serious as the chairman seems to think, which I do not agree with him is the case- Mr. George. But your own office in the last letter that was offered in evidence seems to see a necessity for learning about all the condi- tions, as to the geological conditions and as to the survey conditions, before this thing can be settled in the opinion of the office itself. Mr. Valentine. I think there is a little misinterpretation of that letter in your mind, Mr. George. I do, really. Mr. George. The letter seems to be in plain terms, and questions are asked of the office to be answered by the office. How can an Indian out there be settled about such a matter if your office is not clear ? Mr. Valentine. I am hoping, and honestly thinking, that you are confusing a matter of comparatively small detail with a general principle. Under the general principle I think the Indians could safely make tentative selections without fear of much future trouble. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Commissioner, there are approximately 30 sections under the Arizona canal, or nearly a township of land, on the Salt River Reservation. If you were to allot all the Camp Mc- Dowell Indians 5 acres each, assuming that there are 200 of them, you would allot 1,000 acres, but a small portion of the lands under the Arizona Canal. Therefore, is not the only practical way of making these allotments to find first where the Indians want to locate and then subdivide the lands which they have selected for themselves? Would it be wise to go to the expense of subdividing nearly 30,000 acres of land when you propose to allot a thousand or two only? Mr. Valentine. No ; it would not be wise to subdivide all of it. I still feel that it would be well to subdivide the land as soon as possible where the Indians might want to take the lands. Mr. Mondell. Yes ; but how do you know what lands to subdivide until the Indians have made their tentative selection? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 327 Mr. Valentine. That, of course, would be one way of getting at it, which would make it better. Mr. MoNDEUL. Is not that the only way of getting at it? Mr. Valentine. Of course there is one other way, and that is going in there and taking the best irrigable land that the surveyor can find and subdividing that, so that the Indians, before making their final selection, could see the actual survey stakes of the subdivisions. But as I have already said to the committee, I see no great danger in the course that you have suggested, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell. Would you consider it a proper expenditure of Government money to subdivide all of those lands under the Arizona Canal, on the Salt River Reservation, into 5-acr6 tracts before any Indians had indicated where they wanted to take allotments ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; I should not. Mr. Geoegb. Was not this apparent to you before Mr. Mondell asked the question? Mr. Valentine. Pardon me? Mr. George. Was not a matter as important as this apparent to you, with all your experience, before Mr. Mondell asked you that question ? Mr. Valentine. I do not quite catch the point. Mr. George. The point is, if this was important, if it is necessary for the Government to save money by examining and dividing up only a small portion of the reservation, should not a matter as im- portant as that be apparent to you before Mr. Mondell suggests such a thing? Mr. Valentine. Well, if the question had been put to me at the start, as to economy of the Government funds being the main con- sideration in this matter rather than the best interests of the Indians, I would not have had any difficulty in seeing that point; but I think Mr. George (interrupting) . But this committee is here to get light; Mr. Valentine. But I think a fair disposition to see the truth would indicate that there is no great difference between the two methods — that they would go about hand in hand. Mr. George. But we have not gotten any information about thi^ matter. We have been groping around here about this. This is a question I have been very much interested in myself. I came to this whole examination perfectly raw. I do not know anything about the technical difficulties, and I have asked repeatedly about that question : '^Vhy the necessity of moving these Indians with such haste? Why the necessity of getting this land with such haste ? They are on the McDowell Reservation. Why go to this other reservation? Now, a new explanation seems to be opening to the committee, namely, that it would be wise for the Government to — well, we have had a flood of light on the whole business this morning. Mr. Mondell. You see, that is what comes from having inquiries from one who is acquainted with the facts. Mr. George. I know ; but we have the head of the whole office, who is supposed to be able to give the facts, or to give the indica- tions as to the workings of the office ; but for myself, I have had very little light on this subject. You gentlemen who have had a great deal of experience on Indian reservations, perhaps, can interpret the 98240— No. 8—11 2 328 EXPENDITURES IKT THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. conditions very easily, but I can not ; and I have been asking the Indian Commissioner questions, and I have not had any kind of answers until the information is supplied by one of the members of the committee. Mr. Valentine. I would like to ask you, Mr. George, what ques-i tions of yours I have refused to answer or have-not answered to your satisfaction? Mr. George. I will indicate, before long, a number of questions. Mr. Valentine. I should be very glad, indeed, to have you. The Chairman. Mr. Valentine Mr. MoNDELL. I should like to ask a couple of other questions, if you please, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Very well. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Commissioner, it being your intention to give these Indians now residing upon the Camp McDowell Reservation some irrigated lands as allotments under the Arizona Canal, oft the Salt River Reservation, would not the first thing to be done, in justice and fairness to the Indians, be to find out whereabouts under that canal they wanted to take their allotments ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. This land having been subdivided, as far aS the Government subdivides lands through its regular survey system, would it not have been entirely feasible, is it not entirely feasible, for the Indian to indicate from the section and quarter-section cor- ners the tract of 5 acres which he desires to receive ? Mr. Valentine. Substantially; yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Then would not the subdivision naturally and log- ically — referring to it now in the sense of an official survey, to make a record — follow the tentative selection by the Indian of the land he wanted ? Mr. Valentine. As you put it, I am inclined to think Ihat that would be the better way. The Chairman. Let me see if I followed Mr. Mondell correctly. If I did, his proposition is — and you agree — that the proper way to do it would be to let the Indian pick out for himself in a somewhat general way the location that he desired. Mr. Valentine. That is my understanding, sir. The Chairman. That would be the reasonable way, he said, and you agreed with him? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In this case did the Indian do so? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. The Chairman. Did not the office do it for him ? Mr. Valentine. I do not know. The Chairman. The land that you desired him to move to was land that, so far as the Indians have rights, belonged to the Pima and Maricopa Indians and not to the McDowell people? Mr. Valentine. No, sir; because the President, by proclamation, had opened the Salt River Reservation to the use of such other Indians as it might be wise to allot there. The Chairman. Yes; that is true. But before that proclamation was made it was land that was supposed to be in some degree in the possession of the other Indians ? Mr. Valentine. It had been set aside for their use. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENX. 329 The Chairman. Yes. So far as you know, the McDowell Indians never indicated where they wanted to take allotments in the Salt: Eiver country, did they? ■ Mr. Valentine. No, sir. The Chaieman. And if any indications were made as to where they should go, this place was indicated or selected by the persons belong- ing to the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Valentine- The Chairman. Pardon me. I wanted to go on unless you wish to ask something in explanation of that question. Mr. MoNDELL. It is right on that, because I think the commissionei; misunderstood you. ~ The Chairman. Assuming that the Indians would get about 1,000 acres of irrigated land in the Salt River Reservation, there would be several thousand acres of irrigated land left? : Mr. Valentine. So far as they were' concerned, unless they were used by the Pimas and Maricopas. The Chairman. What use would probably be made of all the irrigated lands left after they made their selections ? Mr. Valentine. That would be a question for the Department of the Interior to decide as a question of policy. The Chairman. Do you know whether any of it would be open to white settlement? Mr. Valentine. I would have no knowledge, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. If it were allotted to the Pimas and the Maricopa Indians, it would be allotted on the same basis as to the McDow- ells — in 5-acre tracts each? Mr. Valentine. As I recall it, the allotment would be substantially on the same basis. The Chairman. Then, what loss would there be, or what waste of the public money would there be, in making all the allotments before any selections were made? Mr. Valentine. Well, perhaps I did not recall correctly. I am not sure whether these 5-acre allotments would take up all that land or not. The Chairman. But it would be allotted in 5-acre tracts ? Mr. Valentine. In so far as the allottees existed to take it. The Chairman. So that the point made by Mr. Mondell that sur- veying it into 5-acre tracts beyond what the McDowells might take would be a waste of money is not well taken, because somebody would take it in 5-acr6 allotments ; and the survey once made would remain made, would it not? Mr. Valentine. The survey once made would remain made- yes, sir. . The Chairman. And it would have to be made some time for some- body? Mr. Valentine. Yes; because the purpose of the Government is to put all of the land to beneficial use, of course. The Chairman. They would not go to the trouble of making canals to bring water on it and then leave it unoccupied if there were occu- pants for it, would they? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. 330 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. : The Chairman. Then the reason suggested by Mr. Mondell and agreed to by you would not be a good reason for failing to survey it all before allotting? Mr. Valentine. There still might be a reason for that, Mr. Chair- man, provided it were not profitable to survey it all in detail before it was desirable to have the Indians make selection there. The Chairman. Why would it not be profitable ? Mr. Valentine. I mean as to the question of the time. The Chairman. But there seems to have been no haste on the part of the McDowells to make selection. They did not urge the haste. Mr. Valentine. There seems to have been a good deal of haste on the part of the field officers to get them to do so. Mr. George. Why? Mr. Valentine. For the reason, Mr. George, as it appeals to me, that getting them industrially started is the most essential thing for their benefit. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Commissioner, is it not the universal practice of the Indian Office, or practically the universal practice, in making allotments to the Indians, to have the Indian indicate on the ground to the allotting officer the tract of land he desires allotted to him? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Do you know of any case in"%hich you have de- parted from that general policy ? Mr. Valentine. I call the attention of the committee to a case on the Pine Ridge Reservation, where a certain part of the Indians did not want to take their allotments. Mr. Mondell. They did not want to take any allotments at all? Mr. Valentine. They did not want to take any allotments at all; yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. But with that exception, the Indians are allotted Iknds that they themselves have selected on the ground ? Mr. Valentine. That is the policy of the office. I think there have been in the past some what would be called paper allotments, where the Indians were not consulted ; but I can not cite any cases. Mr. Mondell. But that has never been the policy of the office, has it? Mr. Valentine. Not to my knowledge. Certainly not in my time. Mr. Mondell. Are not your allotting agents instructed to see the Indians personally and have them go upon the lands and indicate what lands they desire ? Mr. Valentine. Well, I know that is the policy, and I know that IS done ; but whether that is in written instructions or not I can not answer offhand. Mr. Mondell. Now, in answer to the chairman's questions, I un- derstood you to say that these Camp McDowell Indians who had had tentative allotments assigned them on the Salt River Reservation had not selected them themselves, but someone else had selected them for them. Are you sure about that ? The Chairman. That is a misunderstanding of what I said. Mr. MoNDlELL. That was the chairman's question, and the com- missioner answered in the alfirmative. The Chairman. No. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 331 Mr. MoNDEUL. That someone else had selected the lands for the Indians, when as a matter of fact the only record we have is that the Indians selected them themselves. The Chairman. The question is inconsistent. At one time you say " allotment " and at the other " land " ; and they are essentially different. Mr. MONOELu Allotments are lands. The Chairman. Oh, well; but that is a play upon words. Mr. MoNDEUi. No ; it is not The Chairman. There is a vast difference between selecting al- lotments and selecting lands. The general location where the allot- ments are would be the land, but the allotment is the particular 5 acres. I did not put any question of that kind, unless I-^ — ■ Mr. MoNDELL (to the reporter) . Can you read back to the chair- man's question ? The Chairman. Let me make a statement here, so that if I am Wrong the contradiction will appear. I did not say, unless I said what I did not mean to say, that they selected particular allotments for any Indians. If I did, I want it pointed out so that I can cor- rect it. _ Mr. MoNDELiJ. What did the chairman intend them, in the ques- tion? I do not quite understand. The Chairman. I meant the general location, the neighborhood where those allotments are located. Mr. MoNDELL. Let me ask you, Mr. Commissioner, is it your under- standing that the McDowell Indians who have agreed up to this time to take lands on the Salt River Reservation have themselves personally indicated on the ground the land they desire and are willing to take? Mr. valentine. I have absolutely no knowledge, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell. Would that be your opinion of the proceeding? Mr. Valentine. It would be — if they had so done, it would be in line with the way it ought to be done. Mr. Mondell. Do you believe that somebody has simply said to these men : " You are going to have an allotment on the Salt River Reservation," and that that is considered an allotment by your office? Mr. Valentine. That would not be considered an allotment by our office. I should never approve of a schedule so made. Mr. Mondell. Then your understanding is that if any Indians have agreed to take lands upon the Salt River Reservation as allot- ments they have agreed to take lands that they themselves have defi- nitely located? Mr. Valentine. That would be the only right way. Mr. Mondell. Now, the chairman in his question a moment ago, with regard to surveys, expressed the opinion that my suggestion in a former question, as to the inadvisability of surveying all these lands, created or tended to create a wrong impression. Following that line, is it not true that there would be a large amount of land' on the Salt River Reservation under the Arizona Canal remaining after all of the allotments had been made to the Camp McDowell Indians ? 332 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INIEEIOB DEPAETMENT. . Mr. Valentine. Well, in answer to that, Mr. Mondell, IwiU'say that I can not quite conceive your reason, or the reason of any of the rest of the committee, for asking me these questions, for the reason— — Mr. Mondell. I will tell you why I am asking it. In the first place, it is inconceivable to me that, without having any. definite policy in view or the Indians at hand to whom to allot thousands of acres of irrigable land in 5-acre tracts, you would proceed to use the funds of the Government in dividing that land into 5-acre tracts. . Mr. Valentine. That would be equally inconceivable to me, if the land was not to be so used soon.- A survey does not usually so far- precede the use as to make such an expenditure justifiable. Mr. Mondell. So far as the use of the remaining portion which would be left after the allotments to the Camp McDowell Indians is concerned, there is at this time no definite plan with regard to its disposition ? Mr. Valentine. So far as any surplus lands are concerned in that reservation, there is no definite plan for their disposition, so far as I know. The Chairman. Is it usual to have irrigation projects completed and the water brought to the lands without a very strong hope that it shall be immediately put into use ? Mr. Valentine. I should say that would be the usual custom, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. And that is the usual practice ? It works out that way, does it not ? Mr. Valentine. I should say so ; yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Is it not a fact that this Arizona Canal is a great canal that was built many years ago by the people of the vicinity of Phoenix for the irrigation of the lands surrounding Phoenix, and that the fact that the canal covers land on the Salt River Eeserva- tion is simply due to the fact that they had to go to a certain point in the river to get high enough up for their head gates, and that the canal was not built for the purpose of watering the Indian lands? Mr. Valentine. You mean it was built before the Eoosevelt Dam and the Salt River project as a whole had been conceived? Mr. Mondell. Yes. Mr. Valentine. That is my understanding. The Chairman. The building of the Roosevelt Dam was a part of the project, and from the building of that dam it was contem- plated that all the land for which there was water would be brought under cultivation as soon as possible. Mr. Valentine. What I meant to say was, Mr. Chairman, that I think this Arizona Canal was built before that project was con- ceived. The Chairman. Before the building of the dam? Mr. Valentine. Before the dam was conceived. The Chairman. Change the situation, and the building of the Arizona Canal contemplated that the Arizona Canal would be used to irrigate all the lands for which water could be supplied ? Mr. Valentine. But if the Roosevelt Dam had been built before the Arizona Canal had been built, I am not at all sure the Arizona Canal might not have been differently placed. EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 333 Mr. George. But was the Arizona Canal useful to this particular land in question before the Roosevelt Dam was contemplated? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I would like you to clear me up on one other point, if you please. Mr. Vauentine. I will do my best, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. In locating the McDowell Indians on the Salt River project, would they be located in a body? Would the outlines of their land be fixed ? Mr. Valentine. It would be against our general policy so to do, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. What would be done with the 5-acre tracts with- out those boundaries, which might not be selected by them ? Mr. Valentine. That would be entirely a question for future de- cision by the Secretary. The Chairman. How much scope would be given them in making their selections? Mr. Valentine. The policy of the office would be to give them the widest scope. The Chairman. So that they might accept or choose only, say. one-third of the allotment within the boundaries Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you get my idea ? Mr. Valentine. If I understand it ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, suppose they chose an area corresponding to this table — the outlines of it corresponding to this table — but that within those outlines there were only enough of them to take up one-third of that territory. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They might do so? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And it would remain, then, to be determined afterwards what would be done with the other two-thirds of those allotments ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But in allotting them the statement was made that you would run the lines rectangular fashion, even if there were some alkali land or some other undesirable land. You would put it in a 5-acre tract, and somebody would have to take it sometime? Mr. Valentine. Yes ; but we would take awful good pains to see that the Indians did not have to take it. The Chairman. I am not getting at that particularly now. I suppose you would allot that to them, would you not ? Mr. Valentine. We should advise them very strongly not to take such lands. The Chairman. But it would not be left to be vacant? It would be included in a tract of 5 acres ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. Somebody would have to take it. Mr. Valentine. We would try to leave it as surplus land rather than as Indian land. The Chairman. In the event of Indians choosing allotments not adjacent to each other, white persons or other Indians might, of course, take intervening allotments ? 334 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir ; that is, if it were decided to throw that land open in any way. The Chairman. Well, the Government, I take it, would not hold that land that had irrigation rights vacant ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir ; but I would point out that that would all be a part of the details of certain future policy as to surplus lands. The Chairman. What I wanted to know particularly was whether they would be required to choose adjoining allotments or not. Mr. Valentine. They would not be required to do so, for the reason that the allotment policy for many years — as long as I have known it — has been to give them the utmost freedom of choice; and that has led to the allotments being very much scattered. And, furthermore, it has always been the work of the allotting agent to induce the Indians to take the best land on a reservation, which fre- quently of itself scatters the allotment. The Chairman. Gentlemen, I think we shall have to adjourn at this time. When shall we adjourn to? Mr. George. To-morrow morning at half past 10 o'clock, (The committee thereupon, at 12.15 o'clock p. m., adjourned until to-morrow, Thursday, June 15, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) No. 9 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF KEPKESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 15, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPPIOE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Coinmittee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Chairman, Illinois. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATUN, Missouri. John F. McCaeron, Cleric, II COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPART- MENT. Thursday, June 15, 1911. The committee having under consideration the investigation of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, this day met, Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Catlin. There were also present the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Mr. Robert G. Valentine; Mr. E. B. Meritt, law clerk, Office of Indian Affairs ; Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Mr. Joseph W. Latimer, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, and Thomas Surrama. The Chairman. Is there any preliminary matter? If not, you may proceed, Mr. Latimer. TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBERT G. VALENTINE— Continued, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Valentine, in a letter which has been introduced, dated February 25, 1911, addressed to the Indian Commissioner from Mr. Coe, it appears: Supervisor of Alloting Agents Carl Gunderson, under telgraphic instructions from your office, visited ttie Camp McDowell Reservation again on February 20 to talie up further the question of allotments with the McDowell Indians. Will you kindly locate all telegrams that were sent to Mr. Gunder- son, Mr. Coe, or anyone there relative to that matter and let us have them, if you please? Mr. Valentine. I will be glad to do so, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Meritt tells me that he made an inquiry for these telegrams at the office yesterday and they said all the record was here before the committee. Mrs. Gray. I did not get all the letters. Mr. Valentine. The answer was that all the record, as far as the office could find it, was before the committee, and, as I understand, they could not find any telegrams. Mrs. Gray. I did not get all the letters. Mr. Valentine. We will make another search. Mr. Latimer. If you will please do so I wish you would have your office make a pretty thorough investigation^ and then if they do not find them we will get together and ascertain whether they are here. Mr. Valentine. I will have a most thoroughgoing investigation made to see if we can find those telegrams to which you refer. The Chairman. In that connection, Mr. Latimer, can you call to our attention the reference that shows the existence of those tele- grams? 335 Mr. Latimer. My question included that. The quotation from the letter was : Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson, under telegraphic Instructions from your ofBce, visited the Camp McDowell Reservation again on February 20 to take up further the question of allotments with the McDowell Indians. This is at the time your bill was introduced, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. What was the date of that—February, I think? Mr. Latimer. The letter referring to their proposition was written February 25, 1911. Mr. MoNDEiiL. What would be about the date of the telegram re- ferred to ? Mr. Latimer. It would be some time between January 27 and Feb- ruary 20. Mr. Mondell. That particular telegram, then, if there be such a telegram, you could locate? Mr. Valentine. Yes. Mr. Mondell. Unless it is here ? Mr. Valentine. Yes. I am very much surprised it has not been found already. I will direct Mr. Merritt to wire to Gunderson for a copy of it if no trace of it can be found in the office. Mr. Latimer. I asked you Tuesday, Mr. Valentine, if you would kindly give us the figures of the cost of maintaining the dam and canal on the McDowell Reservation for the year 1910. Do you happen to have those figures with you this morning? Mr. Valentine. Do you mean the year ending June 30? Mr. Latimer. No; I want it for the full year, from January 1, 1910, to December 31, 1910. I do not care to ask you any particular questions about it now, but when it will suit your convenience I will be glad to have you hand it to me. Mr. Valentine. I have a lot of memoranda prepared in accordance with your request, and T would be glad to turn all of the memoranda over to you. Mr. Latimer. That would be of great help. Mr. Valentine. I have simply been waiting for you to come for them. Mr. Latimer. That will be of great help and save encumbering the record and the time of the committee. Do you know whether or not the memoranda you are speaking of handing to me will show all letters or papers of every kind that might give the committee any information in the suit of Hurley v. Abbott, in Phoenix, Ariz.? Mr. Valentine. I do not know, sir. Mr. Latimer. Have you made a careful examination for all such letters or papers? Mr. Valentine. I do not know whether such a complete search has been made or not ; but I will direct it. Mr. Latimer. If you please ; and particularly, Mr. Valentine, any letters, telegrams or information that might give the committee light on the question as to who authorized the findings of the court as to the water rights of the McDowell Indians, as appears in the decree that is in evidence before us? Mr. Valentine. We have already' made a search for that, and among the papers which I will hand you, Mr. Latimer, are two office telegrams to the field. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB DBPAETMENT. 337 Mr. Latimer. Just so you have it there. Mr. Valentine. And Mr. Code's answer thereto. Mr. MoNDEU.. A few days ago I asked you, Mr. Commissioner, if you could give us information as to what officer of the Government mtervened on behalf of the Government in the suit in question, and what officer, if any, made the waiver, if such a waiver was made, as is referred to in the decree of the court in the case of Hurley v. Abbott? Mr. Valentine. I know of no officer of the department, in relation to either of those questions. The United States district attorney, as I recall it, Mr. Alexander, I think it was, intervened on behalf of the Department of Justice, probably at the request of the Interior Department. Mr. MoNDELL. What I was anxious to know was what officer of either your department, or any other department of the Government, authorized the waiver referred to in that decree? Mr. Valentine. We have no knowledge of any officer authorizing such a waiver. Mr. Mondell. Well, I assume the court had some authorization for the statement in the decree. Mr. Valentine. It would certainly seem that the court would hardly have made such a statement without some authorization, and I am, perhaps, more interested than anybody else to ascertain what subordinate, if any, authorized such a waiver. So far I have not been able to find who did, if anyone did. Mr. Latimer. What Mr. Mondell asks is to me a matter of very grave importance. Mr. Valentine. We will do our best to find any trace of such an authorization. . Mr. Latimer. The district attorney, or someone, must have made some representation of some kind to the court to warrant such a finding. Mr. Valentine. To my mind it is hardly conceivable that the court would act without some such representation. It seems to me we must run on it somewhere. The Chairman. If the Interior Department requested or directed the district attorney to intervene in its behalf that order would neces- sarily be in writing, would it not ? Mr. Valentine. It certainly would, sir. The Chairman. Have you searched for such an order, or have you had a search made? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. We have searched for that order. The Chairman. Could we learn anything by communicating with the court down there and getting the files of the court, or certified copies of them ? Mr. Valentine. I think that would be an admirable thing to do, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Could you do that through your department ? Mr. Valentine. And the Department of Justice might have some- thing bearing on that point. But it is inconceivable to my mind why we should not have something on that. The Chairman. It is not easy to understand why you would not have at least a copy of this. 338 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. We certainly ought to have, if any such corre- spondence took place. The Chairman. You do not think that could be in some other bu- reau of the Interior Department ? Mr. Valentine. That is hardly likely. I will have a request made of the Secretary's office to see if it initiated there ; in that case it might have been that it went over to the Department of Justice and a copy of it was not transmitted to us. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Chairman, let me make a suggestion that the chairman address a letter to the Department of Justice asking for full information as to what action the department took, if any, in intervening in that case, with a full record of the claim made on behalf of the Government to water rights on the Camp McDowell lleservation, or of any waiver which may have been made, and calling their attention to that portion of the decree which indicates a waiver. It seems to me you might bring out some information in that way. I simply make that as a suggestion. The Chairman. Of course that would include, I presume, a request that they furnish us with their authority, in the first instance, for intervening and the nature of the intervention and all the earlier steps ? Mr. MoNDELL. I take it there is no question about the authority for intervening, or the necessity of intervening, if the Government had anything to protect there, because these water rights are all settled by the local courts, and they are entirely under the jurisdic- tion of the State authorities and Territorial authorities, and if the Government had any rights there, it was necessary for them to inter- vene if they desired to protect them. The problem is : Did they in- tervene to protect or did they intervene to surrender ? Mr. Latimer. And if to surrender, why? Mr. MoNDELL. Yes; it is an interesting problem. I think, Mr. Chairman, that there is no question as to the necessity of the Gov- ernment intervening if it had anything to protect, because it is recog- nized, by decisions of the Supreme Court and by statutes, that the State has control over the distribution and use of waters within the State ; therefore, the Government must, if it has any right, intervene or if any questions are raised that involve those rights. Of course, the settlement of the general water rights on the Salt involved the question of water rights on its tributaries. The Chairman. But does the Department of Justice intervene in those cases of its own motion or only on request from some of the other departments? Mr. MoNDELL. I should say upon the request of the other depart- ments, because it is the legal department of the Government inter- venmg on behalf of the department that has the matter directly in charge. But if we can not learn from the Indian Office who sug- gested intervention, we may be able at least to learn what is really more important, what was the nature of the claim set up by the Gov- ernment, or what waiver was made of the claim, or was there a claim made and later a waiver during the proceedings ? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Meritt tells me, Mr. Chairman, that a tele- phone request was made on the Department of Justice to know about the intervention, and after a search of their records they informed EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPAKTMENT. 339: US that they intervened in this suit on behalf of both the whites and the Indians. Mr. George. At whose request? Mr. Valentine. We do not know that, sir; we are trying to find, out ; we are searching our records to try to find out. Mr. George. But they did not say anything about that? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Meritt tells me they did not say anything about that. Mr. Latimer. Simply as a suggestion: The files seem to indicate that the Government intervened on behalf of the land owned by the Government as public domain ; intervened also for the Indians of the Salt Eiver Reservation and intervened for the Indians of the Camp McDowell Eeservation ; and if my view of the matter is right, the question is as to the propriety of the intervention on behalf or the Government representing the Camp McDowell Indians. Mr. Valentine. Well, I should think that the Interior Department most certainly ought to have requested intervention on behalf of all Indians that could have been in any way affected by water rights in Arizona. Mr. Latimer. My opinion is exactly contrary to yours and Mr. Mondell's ; but that is, of course, wholly immaterial at this time, be- cause the facts as they develop will show the true situation. Mr. Valentine. What I meant was that we always ask the De- partment of Justice to intervene in any legal question where the rights of the Indians are threatened. Mr. Valentine. That is what I would assume would have to be done. I believe what Mr. Mondell was trying to get at was the ini- tiatory steps the Indian Department had to take. But I will call your attention to this fact, that there is no evidence or correspond- ence now in reference to that matter. Mr. Valentine. I do not recall that, because I have to save myself a little ; I do not look over all the memorandums. Mr. Latimer. I will be glad to call it to Mr. Meritt's special at- tention. Mr. Valentine. If you will, I will be glad; he assists me in my work in that way. Mr. Latimer. I assumed he would have charge of it. Mr. Hensley. How could this intervention have been made con- sistently for both parties, in behalf of the Indians and the whites at the same time? Mr. Mondell. Well, the Government could intervene, as has been suggested, on behalf, not particularly on behalf of individuals, but on behalf of the land, if I may put it that way; on behalf of the water rights appurtenant to the land which it is proposed to irrigate under the Salt River project, and it would be necessary, under the reclamation law, to follow section 8, which says that the territorial laws and State laws shall govern in the matter of water rights and that the Secretary shall proceed in accordance with those laws. Whenever there is a proceeding for the settlement of such water rights and it becomes necesary for the Government to become a party, the Secretary of the Interior, under the reclamation law, simply acts as the agent of the future owners of the land in order to establish their water rights, and, of course, it is necessary for the 340 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMENT. Government to establish the water rights for the land the Govern- ment is proposing to irrigate. That would be one feature of it. Then the Government, as the guardian and trustee of the Indians, would necessarily intervene for the protection of any right they had. The Chairman. The intervention, however, would not be for the benefit of the white settlers there. As I understand it, when the Government goes into a project, such as the Roosevelt Dam, it enters into an arrangement with those who purchase the land to be irri- gated that they shall pay back their pro rata share of the expense incurred in the building of the dam, and that the payments shall cover a period of 10 years, prorated over that entire period, and that in the meantime, or until the payments are made, for the time is often extended, the Government has a lien on the land, which amounts, in fact, to a mortgage upon it, and if that is the condition down there I could see how the Government could intervene to pre- serve its own right but not, except incidentally, the rights of the set- tlers on the lands. Mr. Hensley. The people as a whole, instead of individuals. Mr. MoNDEUL. What the Government really intervenes to protect is a water right appurtenant to a tract of land ; the water right is not personal property; it belongs to all the people of the Territory of Arizona, and the only right anybody acquires to it is the right of a user, never the right of property. The only right, then, that ever obtains or is fixed is the right of a tract of land to a perpetual water right. So whoever is irrigating a tract of land must protect it, whether it is the owner of the land or the party who is engaged in what they call the selling of the water right, which is not the sale of the water right at all. They must intervene in all cases in the settlement of water rights in order that the water rights may be fixed and established, whatever they may be. The Chairman. One of the things that puzzles me in the matter is why Mr. Hurley, the complainant, did not bring all of those parties into the suit in the first instance, because no decree he would get in the absence of the United States, as trustee for the Indians, and as mortgagee, as it were, for the land irrigated from the Roosevelt Dam, would be binding on it unless it was made a party to the suit, and it was not entirely left to the United States to voluntarily come in and defend its rights because it might have stayed out of the suit unless brought in. and its rights would not be in any way affected, for a court can not bind a party that is not before it by any decree which may be rendered. Mr. MoNDELL. But the procedure in Arizona, if I understand it cor- rectly, is this : That any claimant of a water right may bring suit against any other claimant of a water right and their relative rights may be determined by the court. The other parties in interest may come in and have their relative rights established, or all parties inter- ested may come in and have a final and complete adjudication, which was attempted in this case. Now, the difficulty would be that if Hurley had simjply had his right adjusted as against Abbott it would still have left the question entirely undecided as to what the relative rights of all the other claimants were. The Chairman. But you forget there were 4,800 defendants with Abbott. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 341 Mr. MoNDELL. Now, what I assume as the history of this case, Mr. Chairman, is that the water-right association there — and it was prob- ably a case brought for that purpose — the water-right association which represented the settlers, so far as they were settlers on the land under the Roosevelt Dam, intervened so as to have a final adjudica- tion of the water rights on the Salt River, so as to settle the matter in one suit, rather than to have a dozen different suits dragging along for the settlement of the matter. Now, in our State, where we have a - different water law, that sort of a thing could not occur, because there, if an application is made to adjudicate a water right, the State brings into the adjudication all claimants, without intervention on their part. The Chairman. I will act on the suggestion of Mr. Mondell and ask the Attorney General's office for a complete statement of the facts suggested, and also the files in the case, if they have them and can bring them before us. That is really the only way that will be en- tirely satisfactory — to get the wliole tiles and see who was before the court, how they got before the court, what the pleadings were, who had the right to waive, and what he waived, if he waived anything. That decree ought to have made a fuller statement of those facts in the way of a summary of what was before the court, but as it did not, we will have to find it out, if we can, in some other way. Mr. Latimer. You testified that each reservation had a separate account, which showed all charges against it, I believe. Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. In effect? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. Now, if a survey were made of the lands that had been selected on the Salt Ris'er Reservation for the Mohave-Apache Indians, would the charge for that be made against the Camp Mc- Dowell account or be in a separate account — a general surveying account ? Mr. Valentine. It might be in a general account, Mr. Latimer, if it were a matter that took place before the fiscal year 1909 to 1910, because ihat was the first year that we had this system of cost ac- counts. Mr. Latimer. That is, the fiscal year ending 1910? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; June 30, 1910. But we will have it so Ave could ascertain it for you. The way it would come would be this : We would segregate so much money and place it at the disposal of the General Land Office, who would then use it in making the survey. Mr. Latimer. I do not know that it will be material, and, therefore, I will not ask for it at present, but do your accounts of payments for salary and expenses to inspectors, special allotting agents, costs for surveying, etc., designate the special work, that is, as to place and character of work for which such payments are made? Mr. Valentine. I can not answer you offhand accurately ; I should say that they would, but I will find out absolutely. Mr. Latimee. For instance, Mr. Valentine, to be sure that you understand me: If Mr. Gunderson went from one point to attend strictly, for a period of two weeks or three weeks, to business per- taining to the Camp McDowell Reservation, would you be able to ascertain, or do your accounts show, that he was doing that special work for, and is it chargeable to the Camp McDowell account? 342 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. Mr. Valentine. I see exactly what you are getting at, and I will do my best to ascertain any such figures. The difficulty that might arise would be that a certain amount of money would be placed to his credit for traveling expenses, which would include his subsistence, and he might be under orders Mr. Latimek. As long as you understand what I am getting at Mr. Valentine (interposing). Well, now, let me be perfectly clear about that. You want to know, first, whether we could ascertain and, second, if we can ascertain whether the allotment expenses, of any kind, in the way of salary or material, was used by Mr. Gun- derson for a definite period on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Latimer. And if that was done is it chargeable to the Camp McDowell account? Will you prepare, or cause to be prepared, as soon as possible, and submit to this committee a complete and de- tailed list of the lands that have, at any time prior to this date, been created or designated as Indian reservations in the Territory of Arizona, whether created by treaty, by Congress, or by Executive order. In preparing said list, particularly note in each instance whether or not the Government now holds the title, and if so, under what land classification; and if the title or control of any of said land has passed from the Government, state in each instance when, hoAV, and to whom, and upon what consideration the title and control passed ; setting forth accurately and clearly by what authority such title and control passed from the Government. If said reservations, or any of them, subsequent to their said creation or designation, have been enlarged or diminished or have in entirety or any portion been changed from the classification of " Indian reservation," give in each instance the date and character of such change, setting forth in each instance in detail by what authority such title and control was changed from the classification of " Indian reservation." In other words, a skeleton abstract of all transfers of title or changes of classification as Government land on each and every Indian reservation, or any part of same, from its creation to date? Mr. MoxDELL. Does that cover the entire Union or only Arizona? The Chairman. Only Arizona. Mr. Catlin. Just what is the purpose in securing this informa- tion ? Is it to trace back the titles of the land to the Indians ? Mr. Latiisiee. As I understood the idea, as developed in consulta- tion with the chairman, it is the only basis upon which the question of expenditures- Mr. Mondell (interposing). As I understand it, the question is, or what the request embodies, is a history of Indian reservations, their areas, boundaries, changes, increases, and decreases, from the earliest time down to the present time, when any increase or decrease was made, by whom, on what authority, for what purpose, and so forth, and it strikes me as a very large problem, and something that it is going to require a good deal of time to prepare. If it is essen- tial in order to bring out any question that the committee wants to investigate it is entirely proper, but I do not quite understand what the purpose is. Mr. Catlin. Does it throw any light on this McDowell question, Mr. Chairman? EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 343 The Chairman. It ought to, incidentally, as the McDowell Eeser- vation is one of the reservations in that Territory Mr. MoNDELii. But is not that investigating a very large haystack in order to search for a very small needle ? The Chaikman. Will you not let me finish my reply? In so far as that is concerned, of course, we are not interested alone in the McDowell Eeservation. Every Indian reservation in Arizona, or elsewhere, is as much a matter to be inquired into as the McDowell Eeservation. Mr. Catlin. My only point was whether this would confuse the issue at this time. Mr. Mondell. This involves an investigation back to the earliest times, beginning with the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, under which we acquired this Territory, and following every detail of enlargement or decrease of every Indian reservation in this Territory. If this is important in Arizona it seems to me it might be important all over the country, unless there is some special reason for investigating these problems in Arizona. Here is the Navaho, the Colorado Eiver, the Apache, the San Carlos, the Gila, and a dozen others, which have been established and modified from time to time, and, of course, the question of expenditures with regard to these, running away back to 1845, it appears to me, is a rather large, extensive, and complicated program. Unless there is some very excellent reason for it I do not believe it ought to be required. The Chairman. What do you say? The question is directed to you, Mr. Valentine. Mr. Valentine. We will be delighted to put the whole office at work at any time you think that is relevant. The Chairman. Will you please run over the question or state- ment submitted to you and point out the things which you deem very difficult or impracticable? Mr. Latimer. I would suggest that a skeleton abstract as to changes in the Indian reservations ought not to be a serious matter to obtain ; the question of a skeleton abstract of property in a city the size of Chicago is something we are constantly getting, and that skeleton abstract is entirely different from the abstract itself; I do not want an abstract giving the whole history or anything of that sort. Mr. Mondell. I do not just understand the practice of putting the department to the expense of such descriptions as would be necessary to show every change in boundary of every Indian reservation in this Territory from the time we acquired possession of it. Mr. Catlin. I understand that does not include anything but Arizona? Does it only include Arizona? The Chairman. Yes; only Arizona. Mr. Mondell. What is the purpose, Mr. Chairmaii? I assume there is a purpose. The Chairman. Are you ready to answer? Mr. Valentine. Yes. The Chairman. What is your answer? Mr. Valentine. Mr. Meritt, who is a little more familiar with the work involved in taking up the details of the office, tells me that he thinks it would take two clerks 10 days to get this information up. 344 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBBIOB DEPAB.TMBNT. I see nothing here that is impracticable, Mr. Chairman, and I could, of course, instead of putting 2 clerks at it for 10 days, put 20 chrks at work; no; I could not do that, because there would not be that number competent to do it, but I could put 10 clerks at it and do it in four days. The Chaieman. What are the particular items in it which would require a great deal of time? Mr. Valentine. Well, I think it is hardly possible for me to dif- ferentiate between the items. It involves going back and tracing the titles of Indian reservations, involves going back to the old files, as we call them in the office, which are kept under the old system of tied- iip bundles, and means simply a lot of digging out. Mr. Chairman, you understand I am not interposing the slightest objection, but on behalf of the overworked clerical force of the Indian Office, I call your attention to the fact that they do an enormous amount of over- time work now, and while we are anxious to respond to every request that you make, it just involves additional work, but we will gladly go ahead. The Chairman. I do not think the committee wants to make an un- reasonable or unnecessary request of you, and if you would indicate the particular points which, in your judgment, would take a great deal of time and labor, we would be glad to modify it; but if the time and labor are the result of the manner in which your files are kept, the chairman, speaking for himself, would not be inclined to drop out or excuse the work because of any inefficiency in keeping the files in your office. Mr. Valentine. Well, this work involves, Mr. Chairman, going back into files that were kept 5, 10, 15, 20, 30, 40, or 50 years ago. The Chairman. Are they not easily accessible ? Mr. Valentine. No, sir. The Chairman. Why? Mr. VALEN;nNE. Those files were kept in the old days in this way: All the incoming mail was kept under a very inadequate filing sys- tem, such as no business house to-day has, in little bundles piled up, and all the outgoing mail was kept in letter-press copy books. When I first became connected with the Indian Office I wanted to find the correspondence in a certain case, and I remember how astonished I was at the way it came to me; it was brought in by several clerks bearing great bundles of red-tape bundles, and others bearing a great pile of press-copy books stacked so high on the floor [indicating]. Then I had to put a man at work going through the indexes of those books in connection with a ledger that was kept and putting in slips so that I could refer to it. Nowadays we have changed all that, and all the correspondence, both incoming and outgoing, in a case is in one bundle, as you have seen it before you. The Chairman. JBut is there no system of indexing by which those things can be located with reasonable speed? Mr. Valentine. Not what modern business would call reasonable speed ; no, sir. The Chairman. Is there not somewhere in the office, in a succinct and continuous form, a skeleton title, or, at least, as the question calls for, a skeleton abstract of the title of every Indian reservation? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 345 Mr. Valentine. I think you have that, sir, in the back of the Annual Eeport for 1910, but I assumed that was not sufficient for the purposes of the committee. Mr. Latimer. We can not ascertain it from an examination of the report. Mr. Valentine. All of this information is there in tabulated form, but this calls for it in a little different form and more complete. We will go to work and get it to you as early as possible. The Chairman. As to the amount of work and the reasonableness of it I would like to understand further. I would be willing to con- cede that perhaps there is a slight conflict between the particularity of the first part and the second part of it, but have you not some- where, where you can find it easily and readily, a chain of the title of the United States to the Indian reservations in Arizona, and every- where, and is your office now in such condition that you would have to go back to old files made at the time of the Treaty of Guadalupe- Hidalgo to establish the Government's title to any particular Indian reservation in Arizona ? , Mr. Valentine. Mr. Meritt tells me that in this book that I spoke of there is a reference to all laws and treaties on which the title would depend. The Chairman. As to the Indian reservations? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then it would not be a difficult work, would it? Mr. Valentine. Not if that is what you mean; but as I understood this question it involved a good deal more than appears in that ap- pendix or statement. The Chairman. Does the statement to which you refer show any additions to or diminution of the reservations in that Territory ? Mr. Valentine. I think it does, sir. Have you the report of 1909 here ? Mr. MoNDELL. Let me call attention to this Mr. Valentine. For instance, I call your attention in the Eeport of the Commissioner of 1909, for example, to page 126, and particu- larly to the statement about the Navaho Reservation, the biggest one in Arizona ; it gives the area, and it begins by saying — Treaty of June 1, 1868, volume 15, page 667, and executive orders. Then following down it mentions 1,769,600 acres which were added to it. Then later on there is a release referred to — and by executive order of December 30, 1908, the surplus land The Chairman (interposing). Does the record show the nature of that release, to whom made, why made, and by whom made ? Mr. Valentine. It gives the area, it gives a reference to the stat- ute " see 35 Stat. L., 457 and 787," which I assume is the reference to the law authorizing the reduction. The Chairman. No doubt. Mr. Valentine. And I should say the bulk of what the committee wants is in this table, but I am not lawyer enough myself to know whether, in following out the references cited in this table, one could come to such an abstract of title of the reservations, without a good deal of by-study, as would satisfy your needs. You will understand, of course, I am raising no objection. 346 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB UJ'il'AitxiVi.jixia.. The Chairman. I understand the objection does not come from you. But this calls only for the nature of the creation of the reserva- tion, whether by treaty, by act of Congress, or by Executive order; now, that would be very easy to ascertain, would it not ? Mr. Valentine. Yes, sir; I think that is practically here in the table I speak of. Mr. MoNDELL. I call your attention to this language in the request: State in each instance when, how, and to whom, and upon what consideration the title and control passed. Now, that involves, in the case of every Indian reservation that has been opened to entry, an examination of the files of the General Land Office to indicate when, how, and to whom and for what con- sideration the title and control to every tract of 40, 80, or 160 acres passed in all of these reservations. The Chaibman. Might not that be very important? Mr. Catlin. I can not see, Mr. Chairman Mr. MoNDEUC (interposing). Well, if the committee thinks it is very important to go through the records of the Land Office for the purpose of determining in each 80-acre tract whether Jones or Smith or Brown acquired it after it was opened to settlement, of course, that information could be obtained, but it would require a great deal of search. The Chairman. I do not think, and I do not even intimate, that any of this land was improperly conveyed away from the Govern- ment, but if all of this land were mine, and I wanted to know whether such had taken place, can you suggest a better way to find out than this? Mr. MoNDELL. Well, if this committee wanted to, it could call on the department for a statement as to the time, place, manner and means, and to whom passed the title to all of the public lands under all of the laws, but I think we would hardly do that unless we were seeking information on some specific subject. The Chairman. I beg your pardon, but that is not an answer t» my question, not at all an answer. My question was : If we wanted to find out, with reference to Arizona, whether any of the public do- main had been improperly taken from the Government, do you know of a better way to ascertain it than the one suggested ? Mr. MoNDELL. The best way I know of is to go right to the records and examine the proceedings in every individual and particular case, from the inception of the entry to the final patent, but I realize that no human being could do that if they had nothing else on earth to do, in any reasonable length of time. If there was any question with regard to the transfer of a particular tract, it would be very much more to the point to spend the time investigating that proposi- tion. I shall do nothing more than to enter a protest against a request of this kind as involving an amount of work monumental in its ex- tent, if it is carried out fully, having no particular object in view, so far as we have been informed, going back to the acquisition of th^ Territory from the Mexican Government, and therefore far beyond any matter legitimately open for inquiry by this committee under its present authority and not promising to bring us any informa- tion which any of us would go over in detail after we had it. On the contrary, if there be any question with regard to the impropnety EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 347 of any transfers anywhere, it is a very simple matter to get the full information with regard to them. The Chairman. Now that Mr. Mondell's protest is in the record, Mr. Valentine, and in view of the statement you have made with ref- erence to what your reports already show, would it not be quite feas- ible for you to furnish the information called for in this statement in a comparatively short time ? Mr. Valentine. I want to answer your question directly, and I would like The Chairman. Before making any statement let me ask you an- other question. Mr. Mondell stated that it would involve the neces- sity of inquiring into every 40 and 80 acre tract. Am I to understand that the Government disposes of Indian reservations of 40 and 80 acre tracts at a time, or am I rather to understand that it opens large sections to settlement at a time ? Mr. Valentine. It opens sections to settlement at a time. The Chairman. I do not mean the 640-acre sections, but I mean a large tract of country. Mr. Valentine. It opens large tracts at a time, but they are home- steaded and otherwise taken up under the general land laws. I suppose the way to answer your question would be to say that if, for instance, these were second Cunningham claims it would be very relevant to know as to what individual hands these selections went into. The Chairman. That is a more minute construction of it than I had given it. This question is simply as to the portions of reserva- tions which the Government at any time alienated and not whether it was John Smith or Tom Jones that settled on a particular allot- ment of the tract. Mr. Valentine. That would be carried in the General Land Office ; we could give it to you down to the point where it ceased to be an Indian title. May I make this explanation? The Chairman. And we would not ask you to follow it further than the Indian Office had charge of it. When it became a matter of locating particular claims on it, your office would, I take it, have nothing to do with it, and we would not ask you to follow it to the General Land Office. Mr. Valentine. May I make this suggestion, which will enable me, possibly, to answer your question a little more intelligently, if you will approve of th^ suggestion. If you could kindly name to me any one reservation to take as a sample, I will set men at work the minute the committee adjourns and we will see how quickly we can give you exactly what you want with respect to that reservation, and from that — taking any reservation as a sample- -I ean estimate in- telligently how much work would be required to give Mr. Latimer just what he wants with respect to the whole of Arizona. The Chairman. Can you at this time name some of the Arizona reservations that have been changed in their boundaries ? Mr. Valentine. Well, the Navaho Eeservation, as I just read to you, was quite violently changed both by additions and subtractions. The Chairman. What about the San Carlos? Mr. Valentine. The San Carlos Reservation, so far as I know, has not been changed, but I can ascertain. 348 EXPENDITUBES IN XJiJ;; IJN xjiitiuxi- uj:.x^.j^^,^^ The Chaikman. Suppose you take, on your own suggestion, Mr, Valentine, the San Carlos, the old Pima, and the White Mountain Reservations, instead of one, as you suggest. Do you think you could conveniently handle those three? Mr. Valentine. We will get busy, Mr. Chairman, and do our best. The Chairman. All right. Mr. MoNDELL. I want to call attention to the fact that the request as made goes much further than indicated by the Chairman. It says: state in each instance, when, how, and to whom, and upon what considera- tion the title and control passed. Now, there is no way of giving that information except to give the inforination in every case and when the title passed from the Govern- ment it passed to individuals. The Chairman. And is not Mr. Valentine the better judge of that than you ? Mr. Valentine undertakes to do it and why do you per- sist in putting difficulties in his way and trying to persuade him he can not do it? Mr. MoNDELL. I am not trying to persuade him he can not do it, The only reason I am making this statement is that I do not desire to have it suggested later that Mr. Valentine was called upon to do something which he did not do, because, in the first place, from his records he can not furnish that information. The Chairman. I take it Mr. Valentine knows perfectly well what he can probably do. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, I have some little information in regard to these matters myself. The Chairman. He is exceedingly well informed, and clever and liberal about telling what he knows. But for interruptions and sug- gestions from one gentleman of the committee Mr. Valentine would get on admirably with the committee and the committee with him, Mr. MoNDELL. Well, now, I do not think the chairman has any cause to suggest that any member of the committee is preventing Mr, Valentine from getting on admirably. I assume that every member of this committee has a duty to perform, and that every member is bound to perform his duty as he sees it, and not as some one else may see it. Now, Mr. Valentine The Chairman. The record will explain the cause of my remark. Mr. MoNDEix. Can you, from the records in your office, state in each instance when, how, to whom, and upon what consideration the title and control passed of lands that were alienated from Indian reservations ? Mr. Valentine. That depends, Mr. Mondell, on Mr. Mondell (interrupting). Well, if the reservation is opened to entry, or a portion of it ? Mr. Valentine. We can tell that the Indian title passed back to the public domain. Mr. Mondell. Oh, well ; of course, if that is the proposition, or if that is intended it should be so stated. Mr. Valentine. Well, I think I stated to the chairman that we could give him the title to the point where the transfer was made to the General Land Office, and that would involve, as I understand, the question of the larger tracts. If there were any wish to know EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 349 the individuals, as I said awhile ago, in regard to the Cunningham claims, we could not do that. The Chairman. I do not think, Mr. Valentine, that there is any- thing in the question or statement which would justify you in at- tempting to follow it to individual settlers or locators, and there is no intention in the question, and there is no intention in my mind, to follow it beyond the point where it left the Indian Bureau. Mr. Valentine. Well, we will gladly tackle those three reserva- tions. Mr. Henslet. It seems to me that is clear enough; the commis- sioner says he will tackle those three reservations. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, on the interpretation put on the question by the chairman I think there is no difficulty at all. Mr. Valentine. When we have those three abstracts ready I wiU be glad to submit them to Mr. Latimer, and if they do not completely meet his wishes we will change the form and then make all the others accordingly. The Chairman. You will do the best you can, and that is all we ask of you. TESTIMONY OF DE. CARLOS MONTEZUMA. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. Your name is Carlos Montezuma? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is your profession? Dr. Montezuma. Physician and surgeon. The Chairman. Where do you reside? Dr. Montezuma. Chicago. The Chairman. Where were you born? Dr. Montezuma. Arizona. The Chairman. When? Dr. Montezuma. Somewhere in 1867, along there somewhere. The Chairman. Of what race are you ? Dr. Montezuma. The Apache Tribe of Arizona. • The Chairman. Are you a full-blooded Indian? Dr. Montezuma. I am. The Chairman. How many branches of the Apaches are there, if there are more than one ? Dr. Montezuma. There are between five and six. The Chairman. Of what branch are you ? Dr. Montezuma. Of what is known as the Mohave- Apaches. The Chairman. Do you know how long your people have lived in Arizona ? Dr. Montezuma. Hundreds of years, I should think. The Chairman. In any particular part of that Territory? Dr. Montezuma. Extending from the Canyon of Colorado to Tus- con, or old Mexico, those ranges of mountains ; extending from these two points were their homes. Mr. MoNDELL. You are speaking now of the Apache Tribe ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what particular part of it did your people live at the time you have a recollection? 9S240— No. 9—11 2 350 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. ' Dr. Montezuma. Well, from Camp Verde to what is known as Kelvin, Ariz. ' The Chairman. How old were you when you left that country? Dr. Montezuma. I was about 4 years old. • The Chairman. How did you come to leave? ' Dr. Montezuma. I was captured by the Pima Tribe, from the Superstition Eange of mountains. The Chairman. What direction is the Superstition Kange of moun- tains from the Verde or McDowell neighborhood ? Dr. Montezuma. Nearly directly south. The Chairman. Was there a state of war between the two tribes at that time? Dr. Montezuma. In a way. That is the Government hired, or used, the Pimas as scouts. Mr. Catlin. As scouts against your tribe ? Dr. Montezuma. As scouts against the Apaches ; yes. The Chairman. What became of the other members of your family at the time? Dr. Montezuma. My father was away during the raid. My mother escaped with my baby brother. My two sisters were captured with myself. The Chairman. Where were you taken to ? Dr. Montezuma. I was taken down to the Salt Eiver Valley, to the Pima Camp, near Blackwater — what is known as Blackwater at the present time. The Chairman. Have you a recollection of what happened then? Dr. Montezuma. Vividly. The Chairman. How long did the Pimas keep you a prisoner? Dr. Montezuma. For several days; three or four days, at the least. The Chairman. What did they finally do with you ? Dr. Montezuma. They had a war dance around me and tied me to a rider and took me off to sell me. The Chairman. Did they sell you ? Dr. Montezuma. They did. The Chairman. Where? Dr. Montezuma. At Adamsville ; what is known as Adamsville. The Chairman. Is that place still existing? Dr. Montezuma. Part. The buildings are in ruins. The Chairman. Near what modern town is it ? Dr. Montezuma. Seven miles below Florence, about. The Chairman. To whom did they sell you? Dr. Montezuma. Mr. Gentile. He was out there taking land- scapes and prospecting. The Chairman. Do you remember what you brought — what was the price? Dr. Montezuma. I was sold for $30. There were three Pimas who owned me, and he gave $10 each to the Pimas. The Chairman. It was a sort of a partition sale, then ? Dr. Montezuma. I guess it was. The Ci-iAiioiAN. What became of your little sisters? Dr. MoNTEzuiMA. They were sold, also, to Mr. Mason, about 5 miles above Adamsville. They brx)ught a cow apiece. HXPENDITXJEES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 351 The Chaieman. This is incidental. Do you linow anything about what ultimately became of them ? Dr. Montezuma. They remained out there, and I traced them to Sonora. I returned after 23 years and found them both dead. The Chairman. I will come to that later, as we go on. I might ask here if any of your relatives, so far as you know, that is of your own immediate family, are now living? Dr. Montezuma. Not one. The Chairmam . Well, tell us something of Mr. Gentile, who bought you. What was his business? Dr. Montezuma. He was a photographer. The Chairman. An artist? Dr. Montezuma. An artist; yes. The Chairman. What nationality was he? Dr. Montezuma. He was an Italian. The Chairman. What was he doing in Arizona at that time ? Dr. Montezuma. He was prospecting for gold and silver. The Chairman. What did he do with you after you became his property ? Dr. Montezuma. He took me along. The Cpiairman. Where to? Dr. MoNTEZusiA. From place to place, by military escort. We went down the valley to Maricopa, from Maricopa to Phoenix, and from Phoenix to some burg up there, and then to Date Creek, and from there to Camp Verde, and from Camp Verde to Fort Apache, and from Fort Apache to Holbrook, and followed the Santa Fe trail to Albuquerque, and from Albuquerque to Santa Fe, where we sold our wagons and took stage to Trinidad. That was the extension of the " railroad in 1871. The Chairman. Did you ride on the railroad ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Where to? Dr. Montezuma. We came here to Washington. The Chairman. To this city ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; and from here we went to New York, and from New York to Grand Eapids, Mich. The Chairman. About how long was it after your purchase by Mr. Gentile that you reached this city ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, it is guesswork; but I should say about eight months. The Chairman. So that you would still be under five, probably ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes, sir ; yes. The Chairman. You may just mention the towns that you went to. You went from Washington to where? Dr. Montezuma. To New York. The Chairman. And stayed there how long? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, it might have been several months, or several weeks. The Chairman. And from there where to ? Dr. Montezuma. From there we went to Grand Eapids. The Chairman. Michigan? Dr. Montezuma. Michigan, yes; and we stayed there several months, until winter. 352 EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chaihman. Then where? Dr. Montezuma. Then we went to Chicago. The Chairman. Where were you when you first started going to school ? Dr. Montezuma. In Chicago. The Chairman. How long did you remain in Chicago at that time? Dr. Montezuma. About three years. The Chairman. How old were you when you began going to school ? Dr. Montezuma. I was about five years old ; between five and six' five, about. The Chairman. How long did you attend school regularly from that time on ; that is, when there was school ? Dr. Montezuma. About 20 years. The Chairman. Did your owner supply you with necessaries and see to your schooling, or did you have any other source of income? Dr. Montezuma. He supplied me until I was about 10 years old, and after 10 I had to paddle my own canoe. The Chairman. How did you do it? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, alternately working and attending school. The Chairman. Where did you make your home; where did you sleep ? Dr. Montezuma. I was generally taken in, in a family, and then worked for the man of the family, and ran errands. The Chairman. At this time where was Gentile? Dr. Montezuma. Gentile? Well, Gentile, as I said, he was liv- ing, but all he could do was to take care of himself. The Chairman. Was he a man of means at any time? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir; from 1872 to 1877 he was one of the prominent men of Chicago. The Chairman. After that, what became of him and you? Dr. Montezuma. After that we were going around the wprld on a scientific expedition, and we went to Brooklyn to start from there, but the expedition went through — failed. The Chairman. So did Gentile? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. Catlin. This was before you were 10 years old? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, no. Mr. Catlin. Did I not understand you to say awhile ago that he did not have anything more to do with you after you were 10? Dr. jNldXTEzuMA. Yes; this was before I was 10. Mr. Catlin. Before you were 10? Dr. MoNTEzi'jiA. Yes. The Chairman. How did you get back from Brooklyn to Chicago? Di-. Montezuma. AVe went to Boston, and he married there. He was single before this. As I say, he failed, and he did not know what to do with me. I was somewhat on his hands, and still he wanted to do the best thing for me — had that spirit — and he would not give me up to go to Europe, or he would not allow anybody to take me away from him ; he was that close to me. The Chairman. Was he, in fact, attached to you ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 353 The Chairman. And you to him ? Dr. MoNTEZTJMA. Yes. Fortunately an Indian agent of some phil- iinthropic spirit was in Boston at that time, and he was acquainted with the wife of Mr. Gentile, and she spoke about me and he said that there was nothing to be alarmed about as to Montezuma. He said, " I can get him in wealthy families and they will be glad to do for him, and all you have to do is to give up your caring for him and trust the boy to me," and so they did. They thought that was the best thing. They wanted to see me doing well, and so they gave me up with that understanding. The Chairman. Yes. Dr. Montezuma. And this man took me around among the churches and showed me off. The Chairman. And used you as a text? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; as a kind of a text, and so on. The Chairman. "What was his business? Dr. Montezuma. He was a United States Indian agent in Nevada. The Chairman. You say he took you to the churches? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; he Avas a kmd of missionary. Mr. George. To the churches ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, to his Indians; yes; somewhat. He used me ; that is what he did with me. The first thing, when we landed, we were on our way to Alton, 111. The Chairman. Shurtleff College is there? Dr. MoNTEzusiA. Shurtleff College is there. We were on our way there, and we landed in Urbana, 111. The Chairman. Champaign and Urbana are twin cities; they lie side by side, so that a stranger could not tell that they were not one city, and the university grounds are where they touch each other? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Very well. What happened there? Dr. Montezuma. He visited one of his old school friends, and at the university there tried to get volunteers to help me. The Y. M. C. A. there, thej^ were consulted, and they replied, or looked upon it, very favorably. The thing was to get a home; so that we went back and consulted a good old friend of his, a school friend of his, as to what to do with me. Of course I had to sleep; I had to stay some- where. So, although he had six children himself, he volunteered to take me in himself. The Chairjian. What was his name? Dr. Montezuma. Stedman. So he kept me in his family, and I took care of his horses and ran errands; and then for schooling I had about 11 of the students to tutor me. The Chairman. As special tutors? Dr. MoNi'EzuMA. A special tutor. The Chairman. How old were you when you reached Urbana ? Dr. Montezuma. I must have been about 10 or 11 years old ; some- where along in there. The Chairman. How long did you continue under the direction of your private tutors? Dr. Montezuma. About two years. The Chairman. During that time did you attend any of the city schools of Urbana? Dr. Montezuma. No. Now and then I did, of course. 354 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPARTMENT. The Chaieman. Do you remember what subjects you studied in that way ? Dr. Montezuma. Just to pass the grammar grade in order to enter the preparatory course. The Chairman. After that, what did you do — lafter the tutors got through with you ? Dr. Montezuma. I passed the examination for the preparatory de- partment of tlie university. The Chairman. The preparatory department there is for the pur- pose of preparing students for the freshman class ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. How long were you in the preparatory school? Dr. Montezuma. One year. The Chairman. During that time did you do any other work— I mean study — except that prescribed in the preparatory course ? Dr. Montezuma. That is all; that is all I did. That is enough, Still I wish to say that during vacation I worked out in the country. This man I lived with was brought up on a farm. The Chairman. Mr. Stedman? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; and he thought that the idea was to drill me physically as well as mentally, so that about June, or the last of May, he would send me out, and it is a splendid farming country there The Chairman. I know it. Dr. Montezuma (continuing). And I followed the corn plow as soon as I left the school, and stayed out there for four months, about, The Chairman. Let me go back a little, and let me ask you if prior to that you had any experience in farm life? Dr. Montezuma. You know the idea is you get a wild subject, it makes no difference whether it is an Indian or a bear or a bird or any creeping thing — I exclude civilized people, you know ; they are not animals The Chairman. They are not wild? Dr. MoNi'EZUMA. Yes; at that time I am talking about, in 1875, or along in there, the idea was that if you took wild things you would kill them. They thought I was pretty wild, and looked at me as though I was wild, and they reasoned that my health was failing because I was getting civilized, and Mr. Gentile was well-to-do and had plenty of friends, and he had a country friend in Galesburg, 111. The Chairman. Near Galesburg? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; and so he concluded to send me out on the farm — in my element, in outdoor life — and he sent me there, and, of course, I was a boy at the time, about 8 or 9 years old, and you know the character of a boy. Mr. George. A boy at that age is pretty wild. Dr. Montezuma. Yes; they have their noses into everything; they want to learn. The Chairman. About how long were you on the farm at Gales- burg? , Dr. Montezuma. About two years — two years. There I learned to wash dishes and prepare food and do chores and take care of a garden. The Chairman. And ride a horse ? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKlOK DEPARTMENT. 355 Dr. Montezuma. Yes; and milk cows, you know; and do most anything on a farm. The Chairman. Did you restore your health that way ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; I guess I did. The Chairman. Well, when you were with Mr. Stedman at Ur- bana, then on vacation, your experience at Galesburg came to your assistance ? Dr. Montezuma. Very, very marked. The Chairman. When did you enter the freshman class in the Illinois University? Dr. Montezuma. In 1880. - -- i The Chairman. What course did you enter in? Dr. Montezuma. The chemical course. Mr. Catlin. How old were you at that time ? Dr. Montezuma. I was about 14 years old. The Chairman. Who chose that course for you ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, well, like everything else, I came to it and took it, of course. I don't remember anybody. I took it ; that is all I did do. The Chairman. Your later experience enables you, I think, to judge — and am I right when I state that in the laboratory facilities the chemical department of the University of Illinois is second to none in the United States? Dr. Montezuma. It was at that time; it is to-day, I think. The Chairman. Better now? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. How long did you remain in the university ? Dr. Montezuma. I remained there four years. The Chairman. Did you graduate ? Dr. Montezuma. I did. The Chairman. In what class? Dr. Montezuma. 1884. The Chairman. After your graduation where did you go ? At the time of your graduation you were about 18 ? _ Dr. Montezuma. About 18 years old, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Are there any incidents in your work at the uni- versity that you care to speak of to the committee? Dr. Montezuma. Not a thing. The Chairman. Let me ask you, for the credit of the old univer- sity, what was the treatment accorded you there by the students and the faculty and everybody ? Dr. Montezuma. I did not see any diiference, only I think they treated me better than they did The Chairjian. Did you ever notice, or think you noticed, even the slightest disadvantage on account of your race ? Dr. Montezuma. Not at all; not at all. I was never a professor there, but I always said that I was connected with it, some way or other. I mowed the grass, you know. Then I used to get 10 cents an hour. Sometimes I had several hours to do a little work, and I would be mowing the grass there and beautifying the university. The Chairman. I think Dr. Peabody was then regent? Dr. Montezuma. I worked that way in hourly fashion, and in that way helped myself a great deal to pay my expenses. 356 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. When you left there, tell the committee what you did? Dr. Montezuma. Mr. Gentile was then living in Chicago. I knew that I would have a home, and so I went back to Chicago. I did not have any money, of course, but I had letters from Dr. Peabody. I traveled around like anybody that would come to Chicago, hunting for work, hunting for something to do; he would have to walk the streets for a good many months or a good many weeks. I did the same thing as anybody else would. But I had letters of introduction, and one of the letters was to Fuller & Fuller. The Chairman. Wholesale druggists? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; wholesale druggists; and when I presented to Mr. Fuller the letter he remembered me. When I was a little boy about 5 years old I used to sell papers in Chicago in order to make my pennies, and he remembered me and took a fatherly interest in me, and he ask me what I wanted to do, and I said I expected to study medicine and I thought to start in a drug store, or in the drug business with Fuller & Fuller ; I would improve, anyway ; I would develop. The Chairman. And it would be in line with your expectations? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; but, as I say, he remembered me and gave me fatherly advice, and said, " This is no place for you, but I tell you what I will do. I will give you a letter of introduction to Dr, Hollister," one of the prominent physicians of Chicago, who was connected at that time with the old Chicago Medical College. And he gave me a letter and I took it to Dr. Hollister, and Dr. Hol- lister was somewhat of a philanthropic spirit himself, and he saw me and talked to me, and he gave me every encouragement possi- ble and said that my tuition to the Chicago Medical College would be satisfactorily settled, and that now the question was to do some- thing to support myself and clothe myself. He said : " You do that part; and if you have not, you bring your bill; if you can not make a living, at the end of a year you bring your bill, and we will settle the bill." That was his request; I remember just as well as anything. The Chairman. Let me ask you this question here. Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Was there anyone in the graduating class of 1875 at the Illinois State University who was younger than you were? Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. The Chairman. Could you give us an idea of the average age of the graduates? Dr. Montezuma. Between 20 and 35; along there. The Chairman. Do you know whether many at any time had graduated younger than you when you graduated ? Dr. Montezuma. Not many. They were not tutored. The Chairman. Now, coining back to where you were, telling us about Dr. Hollister's kindness to you, what did you do ? Dr. Montezuma. I hunted for a position and a place to stay, and I did that for about six months. The Chairman. That is, you hunted for a position ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; with letters and recommendations. The Chairman. Did you find one ? -"•■'■■■•''im^ EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 357 Dr. Montezuma. I gave up the letters of recommendation and went out on my own hook. I got mad and went from place to place until I found one. The Chairman. What did you find? Dr. Montezuma. I found a job cleaning a drug store and washing windows, and so on, doing everything to keep the drug store clean, and it was near the school, about three or four blocks from the medical school, that I expected to attend. The Chairman. What was the name of that school? Dr. Montezuma. The Chicago Medical College. It was located at that time at the corner of Twenty-sixth and Prairie Avenue. Mr. Latimek. That is the old Chicago Medical College? Dr. Montezuma. The old Chicago Medical College. Now it is located at Twenty-fourth and Dearborn Streets. The Chairman. Where did you skep? Dr. Montezuma. In the drug store; and I did not get a salary, either. I did it only for board. The Chairman. And lodging? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, and lodging, that was all, for five years. The Chairman. How long did you continue a student in the Chicago Medical School? Dr. Montezuma. For five years. The Chairman. Is that the regular course? , Dr. Montezuma. No ; at that time it was a two and three year course. The Chairman. Did you graduate from it? Dr. Montezuma. I did. The Chairman. When? ' Dr. Montezuma. In 1889. The Chairman. At what age were you then? Dr. Montezuma. About 23 ; between 22 and 23. The Chairman. "V\Tiat was your degree? Dr. Montezuma. Doctor of medicine. The Chairman. After you graduated, did you continue in the post-graduate work? Dr. Montezuma. No ; I hung up my shingle. The Chairman. Where? Dr. Montezuma. About a block and a half away from the medical college that I had graduated from. The Chairman. Did it bring many customers to you ? [Laughter.] Mr. George. That is perhaps an embarrassing question. The Chairman. Not now ; the Doctor has gone beyond that stage. Dr. Montezuma. Not many. The Chairman. How did you make a living? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes; I learned to live without anything, after a while. The Chairman. How long did you continue in that work ? Dr. Montezuma. About two or three months, when I received a letter from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, who I think at that time was Gen. T. J. Morgan. He heard of me, somehow, I do not know how, and that I had graduated, and was practicing in Chicago, and that I was an Indian of full blood. 358 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. What was the purport of the letter ? Dr. Montezuma. He said he heard that I had graduated from the medical school, and that there were openings in the Indian Depart- ment for positions, and he asked me if I would accept a position, and to reply. The Chairman. What was your reply? Dr. Montezuma. I had an idea at that time that all Government positions were somewhat political. The Chairman. You mean partisan? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; that is what I mean. I wanted him to understand that I was not a politician ; that I did not side with any of the parties, at all, and since that was the case, I could not con- scientiously accept a position, but I said, " If you will take me on a neutral ground, I think I have as much interest in the Indian race, and I think that, some way or other, supernaturally, I have been guided with the blessing of all these troubles," and I did not know but it was my duty to accept the position and do what could for my people. I said, "If that is the case, I will accept a position in the Indian service." That was the understanding; and inside of a week I received a letter appointing me to the position as physician at the Fort Stevenson Industrial School. The Chairman. In what State? Dr. Montezuma. North Dakota. Mr. MoNDELL. How much did that position pay? Dr. Montezuma. $900. The Chairman. Did you go there immediately? Dr. Montezuma. I went there the next train, I think; and bor- rowed money in order to get there, of course. The Chairman. How long did you remain there? Dr. Montezuma. I remained there about a year. The Chairman. What was the nature of your duties there ? Dr. Montezuma. I was a clerk; kept the reports and acted as physician to the school. The Chairman. To what extent did you have practice in your profession, there? Dr. MoNTEzujtA. Just only with children, of course; and I had no one to consult with. I had to do everything alone. The Chairman. Did you have surgical experience there? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes; eye and ear and all. The Chairman. What was the condition of the general health of the children at the school? Dr. Montezuma. Well, you remember it was during the la grippe scourge, in 1889; you remember that? The Chairman. Yes. Dr. Montezujnia. They had a great deal of it out there, especially in North Dakota. You can remember the time ? The Chairman. I do. Dr. Montezuma. All of us can remember that time. The Chairman. From that place where did you go to ? Dr. Montezuma. I went from there to Western Shoshone Agency, Nev. The Chairman. Did your salary remain at $900 a year, also? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMENT. 359 Dr. Montezuma. I think it did ; $1,000, rather. It was a thousand dollars. I may be mistaken about the $900, but I think it was a thou- sand dollars. That was my salary. The Chaieman. What were your duties ? Dr. Montezuma. I was agency physician. The Chairman. Was that a promotion ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, it was for me. I do not know what it was. I was blind to every promotion. I did not know what promotion meant, but the thing was to do my duty. The Chairman. Did you have a greater ■ Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; a greater responsibility. The Chairman (continuing). Or a less number of people to look after there? Dr. Montezuma. Greater. The Chairman. And the character of your practice was substan- tially the same, was it ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Had you any assistance there or anyone to call into consultation. Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. The nearest physician, I think, was 65 miles away, at Tuscarora. The Chairman. What was your experience there in surgical work ? Dr. Montezuma. I had a monopoly of the surgical work, and a great deal of it. The Chairman. You were a real monopolist? Mr. Catling. A trust? The Chairman. How long did you remain there ? Dr. Montezuma. Three years and a half. The Chairman. Your work was of the same character ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. And on the same salary ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. From there where did you go ? Dr. Montezuma. To Colville Agency, Wash. The Chairman. Was that also an Indian school ? Dr. Montezuma. It was a reservation. The Chairman. What were your duties there ? Dr. Montezuma. Agency physician; just as at this other place. The Chairman. Was there a school in connection with it ? Dr. Montezuma. No ; there was not a school there. The Chairman. There was at Shoshone, as I understand you? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. The Chairman. How long did you remain at Colville ? Dr. Montezuma. About a year ; not quite a year. The Chairman. From there where did you go ? Dr. Montezuma. I went from there to Carlisle Indian Industrial School. I was resident physician there. The Chairman. That is in Pennsylvania ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. How long were you resident physician there? Dr. Montezuma. About two years and a half. Mr. Catlin. Was all this promotion done through the Indian Office? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. I asked for it. 360 EXPEKDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Catlin. You asked for it? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. I did not ask for the Carlisle School. That was unknown to me. Mr. Catlin. That just came to you? Dr. MoNTEzuaiA. That just came to me. I was ready to leave the service. I wanted civilized life. I was yearning for civilized life. Mr. Geokge. Chicago? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; and I was ready to resign from the Indian service. I wanted to get East, anyway ; that was my idea — East. I was surprised by a telegram to report for duty at the Carlisle Indus- trial School, and I guess that was my greatest ambition — to be there — and it was given to me unknowingly. The Cha:eman. What opportunity had you while there to notice the conduct and management of the school? Dr. Montezuma. I had every opportunity to note. The Chairman. Did you take any personal part in the instructions given there ? Dr. Montezuma. I did. The Chairman. In what line? Dr. Montezujia. In the course, hygienics, and a good deal of athletics. The Chairman. Was hygienics a part of the course ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. I think you said you stayed there about two years? Dr. Montezuma. About two years and a half. The Chairman. After that what did you do ? Dr. Montezuma. I went back to Chicago. The Chairman. As an independent, then? Dr. Montezuma. Independently. I had to begin right down at bedrock again. The Chairman. During the time that you were in the Indian service, tell us at what points you were in close contact with Indian schools, and how much of the time vou were in close contact with them ? Dr. Montezuma. With Indian schools? Most all the time — that is, with the exception of one place, up in the Colville agency. The Chairman. The time that you were in close contact with them would cover a period of how many years ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, it would cover about six years and a half, or along in there. The CHAiRiUAN. I may come buck to that later, but now I will go on with the biographical part of it. When you reached Chicago, what did j'ou do? Dr. Montezuma. Well, I hung up my shingle. The Chairman. You opened an office? Dr. Montezuma. I hunted up an office, and procured one, and started in. The Chairman. In the general practice of your profession? Dr. Montezuma. In the general practice of my profession ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Where did you locate? Dr. Montezuma. I located The Chairman. What I want to get at is, was it in the same general neighborhood that you had lived in before ? EXPEKDITTTBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 361 Dr. Montezuma. Somewhat ; say about a half a mile away from it. The Chairman. Meanwhile the city had grown southward quite a bit? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. The Chairman. You are still practicing medicine in Chicago? Dr. Montezuma. I am. The Chairman. Did you establish any connection with any hos- pital service there after you went back to Chicago ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes; soon after coming back to Chicago I met one of my medical school friends who had made a name that has stood very prominently in his special line in the United States and throughout the world. The Chairman. Do you mind naming him ? Dr. Montezuma. No. The Chairman. Who was it. Dr. Montezuma. Fenton B. Turk. The Chairman. Dr. Turk? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. He is about the best man in internal dis- eases, stomach and intestinal work, in the world. He is the first one that entered in that special line of work. I met him, and I heard of him while I was stationed at Carlisle, Pa., that he was at the Penn- sylvania University medical department, demonstrating his discovery of diagnosis — what is called diagnosis — of stomach and intestinal diseases. I met him one day on State Street, and he says, " Hello ! " I says, "Hello ! " He says, " Mont, what are you doing? " That is what they called me in my old days, " Mont." " What are you doing ? " I says, " I am walking the street." He says, " Did you leave the service ? " " Yes." " You have got your office here ? " I says, " Oh, yes." " Well, are you doing any work ? " I says, " No ; I am not doing any work ; I am waiting for work." " You are wait- ing for work? Well, say, don't you want to help me? " I says, "Help you? What do you want me to do? " He says, "Well, I have a clinic here, and I have several. I want help in the micro- scopical work, and I think you are capable of taking that position." I said, " Yes ; I will do it." You know the greatest microscopical man is a professor in the University of Illinois, T. J. Burrill. He is the greatest man on microscopy, and I had my course in the university under him. The Chairman. He is still living? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. I said, " I will do that," and the next clinical day I was on hand and he put me to work, and I stuck to it just like anything else. That is the character of my nature. All the Apaches, you will find, at McDowell and in that reservation, they stick and never give up; and I stuck to the work from one branch into another, in the clinical work, for about five years, and then after five years or more the professor gave the whole clinical work for me to do, and I have been doing it ever since. The Chairman. Where? Dr. Montezuma. At the Post Graduate Medical School. The Chairman. Where is it located now ? Dr. Montezuma. At Twenty-fourth and Dearborn Streets. 362 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. , The Chairman. How long have you been doing this clinical work along the lines of the specialty you have mentioned, at the post graduate school? Dr. Montezuma. As I say, it was soon after I arrived — about iS years. The Chairman. That was about 15 years ago? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. At first, though, you worked under the direction of Dr. Turk, as a sort of assistant? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. When did you begin doing the work along your own lines? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, I have been doing that — well, of course I do my work separately, you understand — ever since I entered Chicago. I was connected with him only in the clinical work. The Chairman. Oh, yes; I understand that. Mr. MoNDELL. You have a general practice outside of this clinical work ? Dr. Montezuma. No ; not really. I am known as the stomach and intestinal man of Chicago. Mr. MoNDELL. You have a general practice along this special line? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Who are the students, as a general thing, who attend the post graduate school? Dr. Montezuma. They come from all over the country; country doctors, and even from San Francisco or Seattle or Louisville or New York. They want to see the latest ; and so, as I say, our clinic is known as the best in the world. The Chairman. They are known as your students? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chaiejian. Do you know of any of them of wide reputation whom we might have heard of? Dr. Montezuma. Well, Einhorn, of New York. Mr. George. Einhorn was one of your students ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. He comes there just to take a glance, and to see whether there is anything that he can improve in his boolfs, or anything of that kind. Mr. Catlin. You are the head of this? Dr. Montezuma. Fenton B. Turk is the head. The CuAiRr^iAN. But his headship is nominal? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. You are the one that does the work? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The CiiAiinrAN. Do you know of any others -that attended there? Dr. MoN'raziurA. Most of the prominent physicians in Chicago. The Chairjfan. Name some of them that we might have heard of. Dr. MoNTE7Ai:\rA. Oh, well, you might say we work with Murphy, who is one of the best surgeons in Chicago. There is, say. Dr. Fer- gusson, of Toronto; and we consult with almost all the prominent physicians in Chicago, because we have a method, and we have been at it for years and years, upon the internal work. "\^1ien a diagnosis is required, and exclusion of this and that, we are called upon to aid them in their work. The Ciiaie:man. Have you been called into consultation in difficult cases 3'ourself ? EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 363 Dr. MoNTEZTiMA. Oh, yes ; I do the work. Mr. Turk does the talk- ing and commanding. I am the worker ; that is my position. I roll up my sleeves and work. The Chairman. What I meant particularly by my question was, do you go outside into homes? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; in consultation. The Chairman. To consult with physicians in special cases? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; altogether. The Chairman. Do you leave Chicago for that purpose? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Where have you gone ? Dr. Montezuma. I remember a North Dakota case, and I have gone to Minneapolis, and down as far south as Louisville. The Chairman. For the special purpose of consultation ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; for special consultation. I include Prof. Turk. It is " we " instead of " I." I generally go with him. lie telegraphed me the other day to know whether I had a chance to leave in order to go to Louisville again, but I had to come here, and so he went instead. The Chairman. In what class of cases are you called in and con- sulted ; cases of stomach and bowel troubles ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; anything like the stomach and bowels ; any- thing like that ; acute cases ; appendicitis especially. The Chairman. Have you made any changes, really, that are in- novations, in the treatment of troubles of that character? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes; especially myself. I have gone deeper into that than any man in the United States, I guess, especially the nonoperative treatment of appendicitis. I do not know what you are getting me into. I want to be ethical all I can, you understand. You are going into a question there Mr. MoNDELL. You do not want to be controversial? Dr. Montezuma. No. The Chairman. I understand the doctor's position. You recog- nize Mr. George. The ethics of the profession? The Chairman (continuing). The ethical requirement which keeps a man from advertising his special endowments ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. I could have made a splendid quack years ago. I could have made millions, you might say, but I would not disgrace my colleagues. My character has been to overlook these things and stand up. The Chairman. You respect the traditions of the profession? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. The Chairman. Well, I agree with you, and we will try not to transgress in that regard. Doctor, are any of your family, your blood relations, here in the room? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; as I say, I was captured on a plateau, one of the highest plateaus in the Superstition Eange of mountains, one night. The little ones were captured. The old womeii and old men, and all that the Pimas could get hold of and kill, they wei'e killed — massacred — and those that could escape escaped. This plateau was about a quarter of a mile in diameter, with steep hills on all sides. I was captured that same night; but there is a man here, George Dickens, who was there that same night, but his mother took him on 364 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. her back, and they lived on the north side, and they came on the south side, and his mother took him on her back and escaped with him, and he is alive to-day. The Chairman. What relation is George Dickens to you to-day? Dr. Montezuma. We call each other cousin. The Chairman. George Dickens, will you stand up? (George Dickens stood up as requested.) The Chairman. This is the one, Doctor? Dr. MoN'rEzuMA. Yes. The Chairman. He is your cousin? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Charles Dickens, is he a relation of yours? Dr. Montezuma. He was bom several years afterwards. He is not so good. The Chairman. Charles, will you stand up ? (Charles Dickens stood up as requested.) Mr. Catlin. Is Charles Dickens a brother of George? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. Catlin. He was not captured at the time you were ? The Chairman. He was not in esse then. Dr. Montezu3ia. He was born several years afterwards. The Chairman. How familiar are you with George Dickens and Charles Dickens and your relations there at IMcDowell? Dr. Montezuma. I returned after 25 years' absence away from them, and since then I have visited them five or six times, at their reservation. The Chairman. AVhat opportunity have you had to observe their mental attitude and mental processes and mental capacity ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, the way they carrv themselves, you under- stand, wherever they have been placed, and of course setting my- self in a kind of contrast — not that I am any better than they are but they are less foiiunate and I have been fortunate The Chairman. The point I want to get is. considering your ex- perience in life, your qualifications as a university graduate, and as a i:)hysician, and your knowledge of men generally. I want you to tell us what, in your opinion, their natural capacity is, and what they could have accomplished had they the opportunities you have had; in other words, 1 want you to compare them with j^ourself. Dr. Montezuma. I have been often informed that my case was an exception. I have always replied that the exception meant hard work. If you include in the word " exception," hard work, then I am an exceptional Indian. With regard to the people of my own race, if they had the same opportunity, if the}^ had freedom, as it were, if they were treated as men and not as Indians — this idea of treating Indians as Indians, is all wrong. They might just as well treat you as Dutch, and Dutch, and Dutch, all your life, and treat you as sauerkraut. That is not the way. But if they are treated as well as immigrants that land upon our coast through Castle Garden and then go out into the freedom of American civilization, with all the possibilities before them of public schools, of trades, of the calling, as it were, of the ambition within you, to these environments, they would be just the same as any other person, and better than myself. That is my belief in re- EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 365 gard to the Mohave Apaches or any other Indians throughout the country. The Chairman. Have you any sort of individual or personal interest, or any other interest other than your race interest and your interest as a man in them, in this matter? Dr. Montezuma. I have, ever since I could think, ever since I saw or realized the solution of individuals— that is, the study of man— I have devoted my time, as it were, to the study of man, and especially so with the Indian race; and living with another race con- tinually — other races, I would say; not a race, but races— in Chi- cago, where there are races from all the world The Chairman. Polyglot? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; a cosmopolitan center. I am there, and not on a reservation. The Chairman. The thing I wanted to get from you was whether, in the interest you have taken in your people, you have had any sort of financial benefit or financial hope of benefit ? Dr. Montezuma. No; not at all. I would not disgrace myself in this room if I had that in view. I could not. The Chairman. Have you ever claimed an allotment even,? Dr. Montezuma. Not a drop. The Chairman. Your interest, then, is much higher than any merely financial interest? Dr. Montezuma. I hope it is, and I want everyone to understand that it is for their best interests that I am here to speak for all the Indians in the United States. The Chairman. At the risk of being tedious, I have developed your history as indicative of the possibilities of your people, and I wanted it to go into the record in its fullness, for that purpose (At 1 o'clock p. m. the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.) after recess. The committee met pursuant to the taking of recess. STATEMENT OF DR. CARLOS MONTEZUMA— Continued. The Chairman. I had in mind at the time, Doctor, unless it inter- feres with something that you wish to state yourself, to ask you for your views as to the practical value of the Indian schools in the mat- ter of training the Indian for independent livelihood purposes. Do you eatch the meaning of my question ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. To make it plainer, you testified that you had in all about six years' actual experience in connection with agency schools and Carlisle? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. From the point of view of a full-blood Indian interested in his people, the committee would very much lilie to get your views as to the practical nature of those schools, their defects, their excellencies, and how they could be improved, if you think they can be. Now, go ahead in your own way. Dr. Montezuma. The object of any school, whether it is Indian or white school, is to develop the faculties within the children. In regard to the Indian schools, the object of an Indian school is to 366 EXPENDITURES Iim J.XX£i J-Xi j.iJi civilize the Indian. It is to -give him or teach him so that he can compete with the world. Of course, the reservation was founded to protect the Indian from injuries, because at that time, 40 years ago, an Indian was not a safe person to have at large. He was considered an Indian, like a man, yet not a man. He was dangerous. That was the understanding of the Indian. The Indian also understood from his point of view, from his aspect, that it was unsafe for him to meet a " paleface." It was sure death to him. The Indian was in the minority. The white race, the predominant race, multiplied and was stronger in that way ; the number made might. The misunderstanding occurred, The reservation was the result of this misunderstanding; it was the outcome. Man was put over the Indian within imaginary lines. Now, there was a view of bringing those Indians — remember, he is not a man yet — if possible into civilization. The idea was we wanted to do it as soon as possible. There was some idea of that. In that case at that time it was experimental. There were at that time no schools on reservations. They let them roam at large. It was cruel to civilize them. But later on schools were instituted on reservations, and as I say the object was to teach them civilization. Every reservation had what they called day schools. But in 1870, that was after my capture, I was at the University of Illinois. There were a few reservation schools at that time, in 1878. Reservation schools were practically unknown. I remember a friend of mine handed me a paper with a description of an insane officer. The paper explained the officer was just beyond the line of sanity. The paper had it he was bringing the wild Indians from the far West and taking them to Carlisle School. I remember that well. In every city everybody looked and wondered at his impractical idea. " Just think ; bringing Indians into civilization in order to civilize them. That was wrong." But is was the case ; that was the case. Gen. R. H. Pratt was then a lieutenant. He was out West, sta- tioned out West to hunt Indians. It was during Gen. Grant's time. Many times he had been called to court-martial captured Indians and was considered one of the fairest and clearest-minded officers in the Army. He saw the hanging of many Indians — Murdock, Texas Jack, and others. He had those prisoners. They were to be hung, and he was to pass judgment upon them. I remember when he said that he was so disgusted, that he was so reluctant about it, that he would send in his resignation as an officer and go home. He wanted to go home anyway, because there was the birth of a child he never had seen. That was an inducement to resign. But he received a telegram from Gen. Grant to report to Washington. He reported at Washington and presented his idea of resigning from his commis- sion; but Gen. Grant knew this young lieutenant, and the President made him to understand that he could not afford to relieve him, for he had been useful among the Indians. The President so impressed him that his duty was to be still useful among the Indians that he did not resign at that time. He was given a furlough to go back and visit his child and wife, and so he did. While he was there he con- sulted his wife in regard to whether he would resign or go back and work among the Indians. Of course the power behind the men that have wives, if thej^ are great men, it is generally the wife that has a great deal to do with it. So it was with this soldier. The wife was somewhat religious, and tliey thought God had showed them this MBJiffW^^-"^^"" TWjnaagg^T.Trrr.pTrYP DEPARTMENT, 367 new road, and so they said, " Let us take that." And so the general went back. When he went back he had four hundred and some odd of Geron- imo's band to contend with. His duty was taking them down in handcuffs. You can just imagine it — handcuff the Indian! And he was to take them down to St. Augustine, and so he did. He went down there. It was St. Augustine Barracks. Instead of keeping them in prison and being useless he put them to work, and they were workers. He saw that the Indians were capable of being some- thing else besides prisoners and he put them to useful occupations, and he was surprised beyond his expectations at the development from those that we call Indians. From that time on he saw the possibilities. After that time Gen. Armstrong came into existence. He was working for the Negro pace and Hampton was instituted. The idea was to get these chil- dren that were at the barracks outside of the prison life and into the masses of the country. He did not know how to get at it, and so he thought of Hampton, or rather somebody suggested Hampton to him. He took the children to Hampton, and then Gen. Armstrong and Lieut. Pratt worked hand in hand in the Hampton School. But they separated. The separation came about in this way : Gen. Pratt's idea for the Indian race was high. When he saw the Indian children schooling with the Negro he could not see the logic of developing a weaker race with another weaker race. His ideal was, if you want to develop, surround the Indian with the best opportunities possible, to give them the best. As I say, nis conviction was so strong upon that point that he left Hampton, went to Gen. Grant again and asked for a school for Indians. Against all odds, of public sentiment, of the churches, of the Government, he stood alone. Well, after awhile, Gen. Grant said : " Oh, well, Pratt, if you won't be satisfied until you get that school I will tell you what you do; you hunt up some place and we will try it." So he went out and hunted for a place, and Carlisle Barracks was mentioned to him. He visited Carlisle Barracks and found it to be satisfactory, and he went back to Gen. Grant and presented it to him. He told him that Carlisle Barracks was just the place. " Well, Pratt, go on and see what you can do." So Pratt, with his wife and himself as the only faculty, started the school. They had to go out and get the Indians first — the mate- rial — and so they started out and went up into the Pine Eidge Agency ; from there to Fort Berthold, and then to Cheyenne. They brought back about 23. They started the school with about 23. The In- dians at that time were not civilized as they are now. They had their regular paraphernalia as Indians. You can imagine them going through this experiment. But that was the first real Indian school that we have had, you understand, in America. People do not really know that, but it is. From that the day schools started on the reservations and then the nonreservation schools. But Carlisle from the 23 grew up to a thou- sand. It was phenominal. I would place it as one of the wonders of the world — the school was. You have heard of it. Every one here has heard of the Carlisle school. In 1904 it was at its climax of popularity and usefulness. Gen. Pratt was at the helm of that institution. He said in order to civilize 368 EXPENDITTJEES IN XJrlK IJNTKBiuti ujijrAivj.j.vj.j^x-. ^. the Indians, you must get them into civilization, and if you want him to be an expert, skillful man, and if you want to refine him and o-ive him culture, and attain to the highest standard m social life, you must keep them there. It is just good, common sense. You know it iust as well as I do. That is true to the core. And so he built the Indian school in the State of Pennsylvania, m the most fertile valley in that State, surrounded with industries. He brought Indians from the far West, from the reservations into that country, so that he might have the best of surroundings. Before the Indian got to the Mississippi River he left his Indianism, that at- mosphere, behind, and he was permeated with civilized surroundings. That is education, that is schooling, as well as the Carlisle school. So Carlisle was not only an education for the Indian children, but it was an education to the world — the United States, and to all tltf world. Why? Because it was the first school that existed where you had to work and go to school, manual labor and study at the same time, and add all manual trades at the same time. That was the first school. We never think of that, but it is a fact. The Carlisle school Avas the first one. Educators from all over the world went to Carlisle and were instructed. Educators upon these special works came from foreign countries, went to Carlisle, and saw how things were carried on, and went back to follow the model. That was the standard of the Carlisle school. Whenever there was a Pres- ident of the United States at Washington, from Grant on, who wished to know anything about Indian affairs and how to carry them on, they would go to Carlisle. "Why? Because Gen. Pratt had the heart, the spirit in him, devoting his life to Indian affairs, not for a selfish purpose, not to be promoted, not for any purpose of his own, but for the best interest of the Indian. That was Gen. Pratt, And in order to find out what to do for the Indians, by the President, by the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, by any one who wished to help the Indians, where did they go for help? Gen. E. H. Pratt was con- sulted first before doing anything for themselves. We Indians throughout the country, we know Gen. Pratt. We knoAv that he was directing the Indian ship to the shore of our salva- tion. We had longed that that would be the case. But in 1904 a new President came in. The President had power to use, to exert, to remove. So Gen. R. H. Pratt was removed from the superintend- ency of the Carlisle School. What was the result ? The result was just as marked as though you would take Gen. Booth out of the Salvation Army — kick him out of the Salvation Army. What would be the result? It was just as marked as though the President of the United States, for instance, had said : " Frances Willard, you get out of working for prohibition." Gen. Pratt's removal from the Carlisle Indian School was a cruel thrust that has been bleeding ; that has put back the Indian 50 years in regard to his development. And what is the result? A new Com- missioner of Indian Affairs came in. What is the result? A new superintendent came in — a military officer. They thought that as a mili- t ary officer had had it, so a military officer would fill it. Not so ; not so. The new powers that be, to control the Indian affairs throughout tlie country, they had no one to go to. There was no Gen. Pratt to consult. So what would be the result of a ship that is going in the right direction and you give that ship into people's hand.s that did not EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 369 know the outline of where they were going ? They were lost. Would it not be the result that they would be shifting from here to there, and trying to do something, and they are not doing anything. So it has been in regard to the Indian Department. They have been doing nothing, as it were; using methods to exploit oneself; thinking they are doing something when they are not doing a thing in the interest of the Indians. They are doing something for the interests of somebody — themselves. But secondary is the Indian. Mr. Catlin. You mean by that they have not the interest of the Indians at heart? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. You lose that spirit. You can not have it in your heart; the spirit is gone. Mr. Catlix. Do I understand your view is that at that time when this change was brought about that the Indian Office then lost interest in the welfare of the Indians? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, because they did not have anybody to direct them that knew ; that had the heart in their interest ; not one. The Chairman. Who succeeded Gen. Pratt, and what was there in his management that made a radical change, as you indicate ? Dr. Montezuma. As I said to you before, Gen. Pratt was a man of power. He was taken as an authority, and his words were considered sane. Now, the new superintendent was not a man of that power. He was put there by the powers of the Indian Department, by the head man of the Indian Department and by the President, I have no doubt. And so he was there, under the guidance, under the direction of the Indian Bureau and the President. He ran the machine. After Gen. Pratt left Carlisle, it was a machine. Anybody can run a ma- chine to a certain extent with a little gumption, as it were ; and so it was a machine, and that machine had been oiled and fixed up and run by the new superintendent. As I said, he carried it into the ground. He used the athletic department for exploitation, and the football team was used in questionable means, in order to beat, and to exploit the school. Other methods, such as the sloyd, the most important thing in education life — they dismissed the sloyd department and put in art. Just think of Indian art. There is no such thing as Indian art in the wide, wide world. But the fads came in, as it were. Then a theater was built there, a kind of a stage where they could produce illustrated dramas for the sake of the Indian. Well, I never saw any Indian receive any benefit from it. Only most of the teachers were trying to write dramas. Just think of it. A kind of induce- ment, a prize work for the teachers, and of no interest to the Indians. The Chairman. Were the teachers Indian or Caucasian ? Dr. Montezuma. Caucasians. They wanted to be dramatic, so that they could see their work displayed at the theater. Mr. Catlin. What was the name of the new superintendent ? Dr. Montezuma. Francis Mercer. Mr. Catlin. Was he a military officer? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. Catlin. Had he ever been out West ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. Mr. Catlin. He was familiar with the Indians? Dr. Montezuma. He was familiar with the Indians as an agent. You know how agents are familiar with the Indians. They are domi- 370 BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPAKTMENT. nating. The most dominating creatures in the world are Indian agents ; they have to be. Mr. Catlin. Was he an Indian agent before he was made super- intendent ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. Catlin. Where was he located ? Dr. Montezuma. Uinta. Mr. Catlin. Where is that? Dr. Mon'i-ezuma. In Utah. Mr. Catlin. Was he superintendent of the reservation down there? Dr. Montezuma. He was an agent. Mr. Catlin. Agent of the reservation there? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir : he was military agent. He came in when they were using military officers as agents, and he was one of them. He had been an Indian agent. The first I saw of him was when he was in Minnesota and Wisconsin. He was at the La Pointe Agency. Mr. Catlin. Well, the ways and the methods of the Indians were not new to him when he took charge of this thing. Dr. MoNTEzusiA. Not at all. The school work was, because he had never been superintendent of an Indian school. But in regard to agents he was a veteran. The Chaieman. Doctor, if any point occurs as you go along, would j'ou prefer to be asked to explain it at the time or would you rather we would wait until you have finished your statement and then ask you to explain them ? Dr. Montezuma. Let me make my statement and then ask for an explanation. The Chairman. For elaboration of the particular points? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. I was just going to go on further with re- gard to JNIaj. Mercer. The Chairman. Go on, please. Dr. Montezuma. As I said, he ran the machine. Of course he was not in a position to do as well as Dr. Pratt, because, as I said, he was not the same sort of a man ; he had not that character, but he was a soldier. What he was commanded to do he would do, and that was his duty there — dress parade. I know it was not his doing that the Indian art would come in, that Indian music would come in. I know it was not his idea that the dramatic Indian vaudeville would be instituted at Carlisle. I know that he would not institute an Indian curio shop with the name above the door " Leupp's Studio." The CiiAinrvrAx. "^^Tiat is the name? Dr. MciXTEZioFA. Leupp's ntudio. The first thing you go into at the Indian school there is a waiting place, and it is filled with curios, Indian blank(?ts, Indian pictures, basketry, potterj^, and everything that is Indianism. Just think of it ! But suppose they should give them all those things The Chairman (interposing). That is bringing them back to what you were trying to get them away from. Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. That is not education at all. It is disgusting. But such is the case. I am not telling you anything that is not a fact. You can go there to-morrow and you will see it. Oi course they are lessening it every day. The Chairman. You mean that Leupp's services — — Dr. Montezuma (interrupting). No; he is out of the service. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 371 If you are commissioner, and you say to them, " You do that," " You do this," you know that is all there is to it. I remember I went there as a free man, you understand. I think I have just as much interest in the Indian affairs as any man in the country, as I have said before. I have been " through the mill." I have lived the two lives, the Indian and the predominating civilized life. I went there by invitation to the commencement from Mercer. Some way or other somebody gave me a cue, or I saw it in the Kansas City Star, that the Carlisle School was to be turned into an Indian military school. It was the idea of Mr.Leupp to turn the Carlisle School into a military school upon the idea that the Indian has in- clinations to fight ; that because they are savages they will fight ; and that because they have fighting qualities they would make good sol- diers. The idea ! It is a most absurd thing. Just imagine it ! It was just before the commencement. I wrote down a few remarks. I was not going to say anything against anybody, but I thought it was a tender thing to do ; that we ought to consider before we took such a step; we ought to know what the Carlisle institution was originated for, what the object of the school was, then to stick to it, and perpetuate it, because it has stood as the highest instituion in regard to Indian education in the world ; and, if that is true, we ought to abide by its object. Well, I wrote down, as I said. I was in Chicago, and this invi- tation was just an impetus, and I thought that, being invited, I would have a chance to say something. So I took a train, paid my fare, and went to the Carlisle school. Leupp was on the platform with the lady superintendent of the Indian scliools, and Maj. Mercer. They invited me on the platform. I was very hopeful that everything would be all right. We had about 9 or 10 speakers, and about when the last speaker was talking Maj. Mercer came over. I sat away back. He said, " Doctor, I wanted you to say something, but time is passing and the people you see are scattering," and I looked up, you know, quicker than lightning. I said, " Never mind about your au- dience and time. You just call upon me. I want to say something." He smiled at me and took his seat. The last speaker finished and he held up his hand for the band to play. Of course I got inspired. I was a Quaker at that time. I felt as though I was called upon to do something, and so I got right up and forced my way to the front, and I said, "Here, Maj. Mercer, may I say a few words?" When he saw me coming to the front of the platform he said, " No." I said, " I will, anyway ; I think I have as much right to speak here as anybody in the world." And so I began to unfold my manuscript. I had it written out. Some way or other, to tell the story, before I started from Chicago T had two more copies of this speech, and before the commencement started, you understand, reporters came to me and said, " Here, are you going to say anything?" I said, "I don't know." Another re- porter said, "Ain't you going to say anything?" I answered, "I don't know." I had my manuscript, and one of them came back and I says, " If I do make a speech, here it is." They grabbed it, you know, like a trout. Another one came for the other copy. Of course they had everything. As I was starting to read my manuscript, Mr. Mercer grabbed the manuscript out of my hand, you know, and then we had a few words 372 EXPENDITUKES III XilJll JlJNiJiiliU±l UJJii-AiixMjiXV J.. back and forth. About that time everybody had gone out of the room. I looked back here on the platform and everybody had left, and there we were left alone, fighting. The Chairman. You mean that you were the only audience you had? Dr. Montezuma. Well, there were quite a good many in front wishing to see me, and I had a kind of reception there. The Chairman. Have you a copy of that address here? Dr. MoNTEzuiiA. No; not here. The Chairman. In any form? Dr. MoNTEztnrA. No, sir. Mr. Caii-in. Did you get a chance to say anything at all? Dr. Montezuma. Not a word. Mr. MoNDELL. But the newspapers got it? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes ; the newspapers were delighted with it. The Chairman. Wliat was the character of the address ? Dr. Montezuma. It was something like this: That I had written that I understood the Carlisle School wns to be turned into a military school because of the characteristics of the Indian children toward fighting ability, and I said I resent that statement. I said the In- dians have no more qualities of fighting than any other race. It is only in the mind of the writer and not really practical. In regard to the Carlisle School, I said we ought to follow in the footsteps of Gen. Pratt, and not to deviate from that; that it was going in the right direction and we should follow it; that I came there as one of the representatives of the Indians throughout the country, and I protested against this idea of converting the Carlisle School into something else than what it had been up to that time. That was about the contents of the paper. The Chairman. Do j'ou know yet why the hall was emptied ? Was it because of fear of trouble, or were the students ordered out of the hall? Dr. Montezuma. They just went right out because they were dis- gusted with the affair; that is all. It was just disgust, because even the children always marched out, and they did not march out at that time. The band was playing. It was ordered to play, and they stopped playing because they saw that I, as one of their representa- tives, was not treated right and just. The Chairman. Do you Imow whether or not the Indian people generally share your views as to Gen. Pratt and his work? Dr. Montezuma. 1 can go all over the United States and every reservation will re\erence Gen. Pratt's name. But you mention other superintendents — Oh ! The Chairman. Is that because the Indians were convinced that Gen. Pratt sincerely desired to benefit their condition? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. And the Indians realize who are their friends and who are not their friends. The Indian understands human nature, and they will express themselves not in a roundabout way, wording it, but direct. The Chairman. About how old a man was he when he was re- lieved of office? Dr. Montezuma. About 62 ; he retired. The Chairman. Was he in good physical condition and capable of continuing the work? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir; he was in a good physical condition; but the excuse was that he was in ill health — something of that sort. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 373 The Chairman. Is he still alive ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where? Dr. Montezuma. Philadelphia. Mr. MoNDELL. Was that address of yours published in the news- papers ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir ; in the Philadelphia Ledger. Mr. MoNDELL. In full? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir; in full. The Chairman. Was any notice taken of it in any way, or did it effect any change of plans in Carlisle? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes; they did not start a military school. The Quakers took it up in Pennsylvania, the State of Pennsylvania ; they took it up right away and protested against the fighting ques- tion at Carlisle School, and so it was dropped. The Chairman. How long was that after you left Carlisle ? Dr. Montezuma. I left Carlisle in 1896 as a physician. That was in 1904, I think. The Chairman. In telling us about your connection with Carlisle and retiring from the position there to enter the private practice of your profession you did not indicate any other reason for leaving. Was there any other ? Had you a reason for quitting Carlisle ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. The Chairman. What was it? Dr. Montezuma. I had a professional ambition to develoiD. A school physician is just the same routine over and over, you under- stand. I believe in rubbing up against the world, and there is no rubbing there at all. I told Gen. Pratt that I believed that while I am young, I think I better go back and rub against the world like anybody else, and see what I can accomplish. The Chairman. Would you carry that theory to all the Indians if you could? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. And let them rub up against the world ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; that is the only way. The Chairman. I will want you to come to that point later, but just at this point, in passing, I want you to give us briefly, if it does not interfere with the thread of your story, your judgment as to the effect on the Indian of keeping him virtually a prisoner, with only Indian associates, on a reservation. Dr. Montezuma. Of course, I will elaborate. I define a reservation as a — well, I call it as a hell, you understand. It is. That is. it is an awful place, where Indians are made idlers, beggars, gamblers, and ruined. That is my definition of a reservation. Now, they have been left in that environment for the past 40 years. You have heard of prisoners living for 40 years in a cell and when they get out in the world they do not feel at home. Home has been in the cell, in the prison ; and so in order to make him at home, you would have to put him back in the prison. The Chairman. I read not long ago about a man deliberately go- ing back and asking to be readmitted to prison. Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. Mr. Catlin. Just wherein do you feel that they are made gamblers at the reservation? 374 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Dr. Montezuma. You know that. You have been to college. Boys smoke cigarettes, don't they ? Mr. Catlin. Yes. Dr. Montezuma. And play cards? Mr. Catlin. Yes. Dr. Montezuma. That is their pastime. Mr. Catlin. Would they not be gamblers and smoke cigarettes just as much if they were not on the reservation? That is what I am trying to get at. Dr. Montezuma. Oh, no. Mr. Catlin. My point is this: Do they become gamblers just from the fact they are on the reservation? In other words, would they not gamble if they were not on the reservation ? Dr. Montezuma. That is their pastime. When you have nothing to do, that would be your tendency ; that is a human tendency. Mr. Catlin. You think it is due to idleness and want of work? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. It is a lazy life. That is what the reser- vation life is. The Chairman. I will ask the stenographer to read the answer of the witness as to a definition of it. (The stenographer read as follows:) I define a reserv.-ition ns — I call it as a hell, you understand. It is. That is, it is an awful place, where Indians are made idlers, beggars, gamblers, paupers, and ruined. That is my definition of a reser\ation. The Chaiemak. I wish you would expand that definition of a reservation. Dr. Montezuma. You take an Indian, you understand, and place him on a reservation. That is, at the beginning; not now. I want you to go back some years. You place an Indian on a reservation. His protection is in the agent. They fear the officers, you know; it is just like in prison life, the relation of the prisoners to the officers and the guards. The Chairman. Why? Dr. Mon'itdzuma. They are prisoners. They are there for some- thing they do not know what. .They fear they don't know what and nobody else did. Nobody can explain it. We put them there, and that was all. The Chairman. What is there in the conduct of the agent toward them that makes that fear so intense as you state ? Dr. jSIontezuma. Behind the agent there is the word — I often heard it — " Washington ! " " Washington ! " " If I do anything for you I must consult Washington." " Washington ! " That word passes through the agent's mouth more than any word that he uses. It is " Washington ! " And really they don't know what Washington is. It is a bugaboo that creates fear on the part of the Indian. They don't know, but it is a good word to use in order to keep them in that dominated condition of fear. The Chairman. What is the power of the agent on the reservation to enforce his views by real punishment, if he has any such power? Dr. Montezuma. Of course, you have to realize the surroundings of the agent. He can use a gi'eat many means. He can be impartial to him. That is one of the things that the Indian hates. They want to be on the good side of the agent, and just as soon as he has the bad will of the agent, that makes the Indian feel badly. ^ EXPBNDITUBES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. 375 Mr. George. What authority has the agent over the Indians ? What can he do with them ? Why do they fear him ? ^Vhat can he do with them in the way of punishment? Dr. Montezuma. Only general custom; that is all it is. It is custom. The Chairman. WTiat can he do? Mr. MoNDELL. Can he punish them in any way ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. What is the use of having a police- man and jail, and shut off the rations or treat him worse than tliis other one ? ^\Tiy, he has means of punishing, you know. Mr. Mondell. Can he put them in jail? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. He does not feel well unless he fills them up. Mr. Hensley. He has not performed his full duty if he does not do that? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, no. It is a good thing. He can make a report, and if you don't make up anything you can not make a report. If he makes up a fine report he will be promoted, and if he don't he will not be promoted. Mr. Catlin. Have you ever known of a case where he put a man in jail for something for which he should not have put him in jail? Dr. Montezuma. I don't know of any. Mr. Catlin. As I gather it, you think it is a common occurrence to punish him and put him in jail. Dr. Montezuma. I never questioned; I was under the agent, you know, and when you are under the agent you don't ask questions at all. You just do your business, or you will be reported. When I was an agency physician and was in the service I was very cute. I would be very careful in regard to asking questions and ascertaining this or that. Mr. Catlin. Well, during your experience on the reservation, did you ever see or hear of a case where the Indian was punished by the agent, was thrown in jail, where it did not strike you there was sufficient reason for so putting him in jail ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; I know. Mr. Catlin. Was it a common occurrence ? Did you see many of those during your experience among the reservations? Dr. Montezuma. No; not where I have been located. I was in Western Shoshone and in Colville agencies for four years, and I did not see that, because we had a very good agent there at the Western Shoshone agency. Mr. Catlin. Then this only comes to you as you have heard it — the practice of this power does not come to you from your own per- sonal observation, but just what you have heard? Dr. Montezuma. Personal observation as going from one reserva- tion to another. Then I live in Chicago, and the Indians moving backward and forward throughout the country generally stojo there and tell me about all these things. They want to get redress, or something of that sort, and they write. It is well known. It is not anything that is uncommon. It is a well-known fact. You can ask anybody that has been in the Indian service for years, and they will tell you the same thing. Mr. Mondell. You are conscious of the power of the agent, and therefiore you avoid any collision with him? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. I have been educated to smile when yr..i >qr. nr^t -fo.^1 liTro gmiliup'. It is the policy, in other words. 376 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPAKTMENT. Mr. MoNDELL. He has the power. Dr. Montezuma. Of course. Why, certainly. The Chairman. The agent's jokes are always responded to with a laugh, are they, whether they are good or not? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; oh, yes. The Chairman. Do you care to expand any further the statement that the present reservation policy makes the Indians idlers, beggars, gamblers, and paupers? Dr. Montezuma. That is a fact. The Chairman. Well, have you any suggestions to make as to how that condition could be improved? Dr. Montezuma. As I said before, you take a prison, you may put in a new window, you may whitewash it ; you can put a new floor to it, put elegant carpets on it, hang pictures, put anything in it if you want to, but still it is a prison. It makes no diflference how much A'ou alter it; it is a prison still. Now, in regard to this reservation business as to how I am going to improve it. I can not improve it by alteration of this or that. It is impossible to do that. That is not logical. If you want to keep the Indian service developing, the best thing you can do is to have a whole lot of workers and let them do something within the reserva- tion. You see that the Indian's interest is at stake, and you want to do for the Indian, and you see the reservation system is based on a false premise. It is against the Constitution of the United States, that men are born free, with equal rights, and so forth and so on. Look at it from that point of view, and you will get a bomb and explode it in the midst of every reservation and do away with them, and let the Indians free. Mr. MoNDELL. Let them go among the white people? Dr. Montezuma. Why, certainly. The Chairman. During the years that you have been returning to McDowell, and are familiar with conditions there, what progress toward independent living have your people made in, say, the last 15 years? Dr. Montezuma. If you know anything about the history of those Apaches, your sj^mpathy will be aroused. I want your sympathy to a certain extent ; that must go in with it. If you knew the history of these Apaches, I say, you ■would respect these McDowell Indians. Why? When I left those, my people, 40 years ago. what do you supiDOse they used to define hell? One word covers it, and that was "work." Get an Indian to work. Huh! It was impossible. It was death. It was bondage. It Avas everything but to be free with them. That was from their jDoint of view. And with that instilled, inborn idea within them, I can say to you now that those who are here, the same subjects, every one of them, are considered the best workers in Arizona to-day. The Chairman. By " these subjects," you mean Indians here present ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. In 40 years the improvement has been so marked that it is the case that they are the best workers in the Ter- ritory, or the State, of Arizona. The Chairman. I have noticed that these men, every one of them, have their hands calloused quite as badly as the hands of a maji who EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEJtiUK DEPARTMENT. 377 works six days a week on a railroad section with a shovel in his hands. What is the cause of the callous on the hands of these men ? Dr. Montezuma. They are working on their farms. The Chairman. With what kind of tools do they work? Dr. Montezuma. With shovels; that is, irrigating spades, you know. Often they have not a plow. Just think of that ! Ohi, iny, I wish you would think of it ! They have to go and spade the ground, turn it over and turn it over and turn it over. The Chairman. With a spade? Dr. Montezuma. With a spadej to cultivate they sometimes take sticks for want of plows. The Chairman. Why have they not plows ? Dr. Montezuma. The real object — well, I must go into the McDowell situation, although not to hit anybody. I want you to really know that I am the same as you are, and you are the same as I am. I err and you err. We are in the same boat. But in regard to answering this question, I must confess, and I feel it is true, that it is to coerce these Indians from McDowell to Salt River. Do the least that you can for them there, so as to force them down into Salt River. That is why they are discouraging any way of helping these Apaches. But against all that, they feel that is so, and they do anything in order to show the committee or the world that they are worthy of the land. They have a better crop this year than ever before, in the small valley there. Mr. Catlin. Do you know whether any other of the tribes have different tools from what the Apaches do, of which you have just spoken? Do they have more tools for other tribes than for the Apaches you have just referred to ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. You go to Fort Apache, you go to the Pima Reservation. Mr. Catlin. Do they get plows down there ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. Mr. Catlin. The Pimas get plows and the McDowells do not? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. Mr. Catlin. You understand my question? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, I understand ; certainly. They have to have plows to cultivate. Mr. Mondell. The Pimas? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. Mondell. And the McDowell Indians do not ? Dr. Montezuma. They do not get anj' encouragement. They may have a few plows, but you must remember there are quite a good many families of them. They have their patch of farming, and they can not wait one for another, and so they do the best they can in a < rude way. I would do the same, and you would do the same. The Chairman. You have stated, perhaps, as wide extremes as could be covered in the length of time indicated when you say that some 40 years ago your people hated physical labor with intense hatred? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. sir. The Chairman. And that it filled their idea of hell ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It also appears that at this time they are among the most hard-working men in the entire country ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. 378 EXPENDITURES IN The Chairman. Is it due to the reservation life, of if not, what is it to which you attribute that marvelous change ? Dr. Montezuma. They have gone out and worked among white jjeople and also on the railroads, grading. They are experts on grad- ing. Charlie Dickens over there [indicating] superintends a gang. Thirty or thirty-five of them go out and do the grading, and you do not have to havL' a boss over them. When you go away they will do their work. They do not know anything else. They do not know what it is to shirk. The Chairman. By grading you mean establishing levels for water to run on? Dr. MoNi-EzuMA. Or for railroad rails. The Chairman. Oh, I see. Piling up dirt to put the rails on? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. They are experts on that. That is what they are doing now, developing their farms, and they have a large crop. Mr. MoisTDELL. Therefore, in using these primitive methods, they can till only a small portion of land ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. Mr. Mondell. There must be intensive farming as to work? Dr. Montezu3ia. Yes, sir ; it is very much so. Mr. Mondell. And the conditions of the soil are not so well adapted to intensive farming? Dr. Montezuma. No. The Chairman. One of the statements in evidence, taken, I think, from a report by Mr. Leupp, is to the effect that they will walk 40 or 50 miles to get labor to do. Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Since when has that been true of them ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, that has been true of them for years and years. That was the Hopi tribe. That is true. The Chairman. To 'ivhat do you attribute the change from the condition where they hated work to this other condition where they are willing to do it all the time, and the hardest kind of it at that? Dr. Montezuma. Well, you know, they got to be civilized, and in order to be civilized you must see the value of money. It is the foun- dation, as it were, of civilized development. With that incentive be- fore them thej' have developed, and with an incentive before them — setting anything before anybody, I don't care who. Apaches or anybody else; Hottentots — set something before them and let them see it, and tell them that they will gain this prize by doing this and that, why, they will strive for it. So as to this new life; this turning over, as it were, from picturing work as hell to that of honor and respectability and money gain. That is what has brought about the change. The Chairman. And the outcome of this new theory is their desire to do something? Dr. Montezuma. I have talked with them on the subject, and they have said, " If you do what we have said, we will work, we will work, we will work." That is all they can do. They want to show that they were wrong when they tried to take them away from there. They say they will get along. They even have said, " We do not want the Government to help us at all ; not a thing." The Chairman. We have caused you to digress from the statement you were making quite a good deal, and as long as we have degressed DEPARTMENT. 379 from it I would like to have you expand with reference to Carlisle. You spoke of using the football team for a questionable purpose. Do you mind telling what you had in mind when you said that ? Dr. Montezuma. I have seen Carlisle football. If it is one or two hundred miles, and the Carlisle team is dated at that place, I would stop work and go and attend the game. Why? Because I saw it was clean. It was amateur. The Chairman. Truly amateur ? Dr. MoNTEztTMA. It was for physique; fighting against another opponent. It was splendid. It was a picture that I admired. There was no Indian professionalism or anything that was for gain about it. I have seen it. They went as far as Berkeley, Cal., to play, and I followed them there, and I have been to New York and Boston and elsewhere upon that football team. I know the ins and outs of the football team. But it was under Gen. Pratt's adminis- tration. If he knew that one boy moved wrong in any way, it makes no difference how expert he was, he had to give way to another per- son that was more deserving. The Chairman. He set a high standard of honor ? Dr. Montezuma. That was Carlisle. You must remember that. That was Carlisle. It would belittle the school if anything went wrong. That was Gen. Pratt's idea. But after awhile, after he left, of course when Gen. Pratt left, you know, the boys, some of the boys, left, because they saw it was a wrong movement to remove Gen. Pratt from the school, and the football boys would leave, and that left a gap there which would be hard to fill. So the new authorities came in and said we must keep this football popularity up to the same standard as in the past; and that was their ideal, I guess, and they had to abuse it and give these boys $15 for a goal kick, or something of that sort. There was a prize in it for doing that. And then we must have an athletic association club. You know the amount of money that is taken in there, and you can not tell where the money went to — thousands and thousands of dollars. Of course it is on record ; there is no doubt of it. But the record is not really the real thing. I am just perhaps diverging on that, but there is no question in regard to it. The Chairman. Just there, Doctor, is it your opinion that since Gen. Pratt left, the football team has been used for mercenary purposes, for mere matters of profit? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. They have no more interest in the Indians than Buffalo Bill has in regard to his Indians. The Chairman. Are the profits, if there are any, to be distributed among the players, though? How is that? Dr. Montezuma. Well they are salaried, and for certain goal kicks and certain purposes that go with the football, they were paid for so much. Mr. Catlin. When you said salaried, you did not mean each player got paid for playing on the team ? Dr. Montezuma. They did. You take those Hausers. They did ; certainly. It was not new. It has been in the papers many times. That is why they could not play the Chicago team. That is why they could not play Minnesota. The Chairman. State the reason specifically why they could not play the Chicago team ? 380 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMEJNT. Dr. MoNTEZTJMA. Because they were professionals. They found out some of them received money for playing, and that was against the college rule. The Chairman. That was the result of deliberation on the part of the players, or those who managed the school? Whose fault was it that they were at least semi-professionals? Dr. MoNi'EzuMA. The superintendent of the Carlisle School. The man at the head is always to blame for anything on the part of his subordinates. The Chairman. Had the boys themselves anything to say about it? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. The Chairman. Could the boys change it if they would ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly; if they say so. But you know how they value money. I would not. I think if they were going to pay me for playing football I would take the money. It is natural, you understand, to a certain extent. The Chairman. Well, over and above any money that the players got, what do you know or believe as to the profits? Dr. MoNTEzuaiA. Well, I think the profits were divided up. Of course they have the coach, Warner, who receives more than two or three or four thousand for his salary. I think a percentage goes to him. It is not there ; it is not on paper. Mr. Catlin. For instance, in answer to the chairman's question, Tv-hen they plaj^ed with Harvard or Yale — as they used to when I WPS in college — they would get a certain per cent or the gate receipts. Now. what became of those? Is not that your idea, Mr. Chairnaan? The Chairman. Yes. Dr. JMoN'razuMA. They appropriate it. For instance, they put up that Leupp studio that stands so prominently at the Carlisle School, filled with curios. The CnAn:?.rAN. In which thev hung the reminders of their lodge life? • Dr. Montezuma. Yes, and so on. They can use it as they wish. It is said it does not belong to the school, but belongs to the athletic part. The Chairman. How long did this Maj. Mercer remain with Carlisle? Dr. MoNTEzujiA. I think he remained about four or five years. It is interesting to know that he left the institution under a cloud of disgrace. The Chairman. Did he quit, or was he invited to quit? Dr. MoNTEzi'MA. Of course the Indian Department put him there. That is all there is to it. And his duty was to keep up that standard, and when he could not do it, and when there Avere charges against him, it is the duty of the Indian Department to stand by him through thick and thin, and so the department stood with him to the very ]ast ; but he had to go, and when he got out, LeUpp gave him, exalted him with bouquets, and to the world, it seemed as though the rea- son • Mr. Catlin (interposing). Who brought the charges against him; some of the Indians? Dr. Montezuma. An Indian girl. (Thereupon, the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, June 16, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) Ko. 10 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF EEPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. lOH TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 16, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVBENMENT PRINTING OrriOJS 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 29*^, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, CToirmon, Illinoi?. SCOTT FERRIP, Oklahom'i. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. H ANN A, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouil. T^ERON E. CATLIN, Missouri John F. McCabeon, Cferlc. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMEiNT. Committee on Expenditures IN THE Interior Department, Friday, June 16, 1911. The committee this day met, Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were also present the following members of the committee : Messrs. George, Hensley, and Mondell. There were also present ex- Commissioner of Indian Affairs Francis E. Leupp, E. B. Meritt, Esq., Mrs. Helen P. Grey, Dr. Carlos Montezuma, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, Thomas Surrama, and Joseph W. Latimer, Esq. STATEMENT OE CAELOS MONTEZUMA— Continued. The Chairman. Dr. Montezuma, when we adjourned yesterday you had been telling us your views as to the Indian schools. Is there anything further you want to saj' this morning on that subject, as to whether the school on the reservation or off the reservation is the bettor for the advancement of the Indians, and generally speak- ing, if there is anything further you want to say with reference to your judgment as to the location and management of Indian schools, we will be glad to hear it now. Dr. Montezuma. I want it to be understood that I am not speak- ing for myself, my own judgment in the matter; it is the judgment of the Indians throughout the country that I am expressing; I am expressing myself for them. It has been given to the public and put forth that the day schools on the reservations are more important than the nonreservation schools. If the object, as I said yesterday, is to civilize the Indians, to give them the best education so that they may compete with the irrepressible tide of civilization, you can see where the nonreservation school is better than the day school. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, unfortunately for myself. I was unable to be here yesterday afternoon and as I am very much inter- ested in this question, if I do not transgress on the time of the com- mittee, I would like to ask the doctor a few questions, and if they were answered yesterday, if the Chairman will kindly so state, I will simply get his answers from the record, but I would like to amplify that a little. The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell. Doctor, as the object of the school system among the Indians is to bring the race, as a whole, from the semibarbarous 381 382 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. conditions in which they originally lived and make it possible for them to become competent members of highly civilized communi- ties, can that general object of lifting the entire citizenship of the Indians be attained so well by the attendance of a portion or all of the children on nonreservation schools, as by their attendance at day schools on the reservations ? The Chairman. I would say that the doctor covered that question very fully yesterday, but I would be glad to have him answer you specifically. Dr. MoNi-EZTJMA. Just one word, and that is the word "whole," as a race or as a tribe bring them into civilization. That is not really the way to bring a race into the ways of another race, to trans- plant them as a tribe. You must do it individually, individual rights must be taken into consideration. I believe it can be done by taking the next generation and treating them just like your children. Take, for instance, your child. You may not have the opportunities that you seek for your child, but you do not keep the child to yourself, you send him East to Yale or to Europe, you send him away so he may get the best possible environment. The ideal home — ^that is nonsense. You are not living where you were bom. We fly on the way and live where we can be useful to the world. Mr. MoNDELL. Your idea is that it would be wise to take all the children of an entire generation from the reservation and put them in nonreservation schools? Dr. Montezuma. The best thing in the world, scatter them in the public schools throughout the country. Mr. MoNDELL. Would it not be very much resented, at least very sincerely regretted by the Indian people, who certainly have as much affection for their chidlren as any members of the human race, do not they themselves object? Dr. Montezuma. Not at all. Mr. MoNDELL. Well, there have been many cases where there has been a great deal of difficulty in getting the children and taking them to nonreservation schools ? Dr. Montezuma. Not at all. Mr. MoNDELL. Doctor, I have had personal knowledge of cases where the parents actually secreted their children and kept them secreted for days in order to prevent their being carried away? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. I remember visiting one reservation several years ago where my heartstrings were touched by the pathetic scene of the departure of some 25 Indian children from their parents, and I never saw more violent — not violent, because an Indian is never violent in the expression of his feelings — a more profound expression of sorrow and regret in my life than shown in their way by the parents. The Chairman. How long ago was that ? Mr. MoNDELL. About 10 years ago, Mr. Chairman. TJie Chairman. In that particular community had those parents knowledge of the fact that their children would' be safe where they were going, or was that the inception of the movement in that community ? ,.^iMr:M EXPEHTDITUEES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. 383 Mr. MoNDELL. I do not think it was a question of safety, Mr. Chairman. My acquaintance is slight, I have no great acquaintance with the Indians, but they are profoundly attached to their children, and to take an Indian woman's child, particularly a young child, from her is about as pathetic and awful a thing as one can think of. An educated white woman, who herself has attended school at a dis- tance from her home and knows all about the environment and con- ditions, even in the case of such a woman the trial is great to have her children taken from her j'oung. She sacrifices herself as they grow up, but to have them taken young, is a matter of very sincere regret, where she knows all the conditions, but here are poor people who conjure up in their minds all sorts of notions and these little people in whom are centered all their affections — and there is no human being whatever who has more affection than an Indian — these little people in whom all their affections are centered, to have them torn away and carried to environment which they know nothing about, with the knowledge that they will come back not of them, foreign to them, is there not a great deal of feeling like that? The Chairman. Before the doctor answers your question let me ask you one. You have made a statement rather than asked a ques- tion and I would like to have you explain it a little, as we have the burden upon us of lifting the Indians to a plane higher than the one they occupy and as we know that the separation of the children from the parents would be for the benefit of the children would you, in view of that, yield to the affectionate feeling of the parents and let the children remain there to their detriment or would you impose a little on that feeling of affection and take the children from them, because it would be for the benefit of the children ? Let me add that we get a million a year from Europe and the heart strings of the mothers of all those are torn when they leave their homes in Europe, but they come and you would not say that they should not come. They are benefited by coming and the country is benefited by their coming, and you can not, in my judgment, put against that move- ment, as the doctor says, the fact that the individual feeling of affec- tionate regard of the parents for the child shall intervene to stop that movement ? Mr. MoNDELL. But immigration does not ordinarily take families, except adults, and the separation of an adult child from the family is the uniform practice of the world. . The Chairman. It often does the thing that you say it does not do. Mr. MoNDELL. I say ordinarily. If it involves the separation of younger children, it is always looked upon as a temporary separation, and it is a matter of personal desire and wik-h ; they do it because they believe it will better their conditions; and they do it on their own motion. The Chairman. Now, to the Indians ? Mr. MoNDELL. I think there is not much analogy between the two conditions. The Chairman. Suppose there is not. Mr. MoNDELL. I am desirous of getting the views of a man who is an Indian, and, while he has lived among the white men so long that he may have, perhaps, lost to a limited extent the Indian view, is a remarkable example of what his race can do. 384 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Indians occupy lands after they have been allotted as other farmers do. For instance, take the reservations in my State. There are 1,800 Indians who within a few years will be, we hope, settled and more Avill be in the future, upon their farms. We realize that we can not make of all those Indians physicians of note and celebrity like our friend here. We can not make all of them lawyers. We can not educate all of them, nor have all of them the capacity to rise to heights anything like that. The Chairman. May I correct your statement? We can not make that of any of them, but we can give them a chance to make those things of themselves. Mr. MoNDBLL. I realize that. Now, follow me. They are like any other community of people so settled. I have a very high opinion of the capacity of the American Indian and always have had. They not only have a great mental capacity in the main, in my opinion but they are a remarkably well-intentioned people in the main. If that were a neighborhood of white people, farmers, no one would think of taking all of those children out of that environment to an entirely different and foreign environment and giving them an education that would not necessarily fit them for that environment which, in the main, must be theirs in the future. No one would think of doing that. What do we do? We establish schools there. Wliat is the effect of the schools? The effect of those schools is to educate the children in the rudiments which, from my standpoint, are all very important. It is true that a great many men get along without any- thing but a common-school education, but we are not carrying them away from their family association, we are not losing that close con- tact and sympathy which will always exist between the younger and elder generations. We are educating the elder Indians while we are educating the children. They leave their homes in the morning and they go to a somewhat different environment and are taught and they return in the evening and they are most influential in their uplifting effect upon the tribe. They learn not how clothes are washed in a steam laundry, but how they are washed in a tub with a scrubboard. They can not use the same tub and the same board in the wickiup, or what is the first transition from the wickiup, the wall tent. Everything they learn reflects upon the people at home. It raises the people at home, it broadens the people, it enlightens the people at home. They learn to make wagons and they mend the wagon of the father and they learn to plow in the day schools or in the school on the reserva- tion. They go back to where the father is plowing and their educa- tion, every bit of it, has a helping effect upon the entire tribe. The tribe does not become jealous of what they learn, and does not turn on them that awful weapon, the most formidable with an Indian, of ridicule, but sympathizes with them because they see the benefits right there at home of those things. They are learning every day. So the child is not disassociated from the tribe; the child is being educated and is educating the tribe, is learning its home relations. There is no rending of heartstrings, and the benefit is not only to the child being educated, but to the tribe itself. Now, there will come a time, here and there will appear among those children one who is unusually bright; there may be an orphan; EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 385 taking an orphan from the tribe is not a matter of so much regret, because there is no near relative, or an unusually bright child, when children have reached an age when naturally the parents do not feel so reluctant to part with them as at a younger age, and so finally you may select very properly from that tribe a few to be taken to the nonreservation schools and there to be given the higher opportunity. But the idea that you can take these children away from the reser- vation and take them to Carlisle and Hampton and make of them something besides Indians is a mistaken effort to raise the race. I have seen them go back subject to all the ridicule that the elder mem- bers of the tribe so often heap upon one who comes back and knows all about the stars; but what effect have the stars upon the raising of grain or the raising of grass, with the mending of a plow, with fixing a saddle, with adjusting a broken wagon or a broken reaper or a broken mower ? They come back unfitted for the work they must do to raise that race, whereas if they remained there, just as country boys remain, they are fitted for that work. That is my idea. I regret taking so much time. The Chairman. Now, Doctor, give us your views on that ques- tion? Dr. Montezuma. Mr. Mondell is right about those things. They do what he has said. It is not new at all. That idea was expressed when Carlisle was instituted, but things have changed since then. As I said to you, it is not the fault of the Indian. The obstacle is not the Indian's at all. As ex-Commissioner Leupp and others have said, if you bring them the reason, the outcome that will be of benefit to them and the race, and show them that it is for their best interests in every way possible, it makes no difference how primitive the Indian may be he will sympathize with it and allow that child to be educated away from home ; but if you leave the question of educating the Indians with the agent, with the superintendent of the day school, and the selfish hirelings out there to make good reports to the department — you can see where the Indian is not advised for his best interests, but for the selfish interests of the employees on the reservation ; and it will be the cause of blockading the Indian mother or father from sending their children outside the reservation. So I claim it is not -the fault of the Indian. Mr. Mondell. How early would you take the Indian children away from the reservation? Dr. Montezuma. The answer I have often stated. If I had not passed through the hardships of being taken away when 4 years old and transplanted in the midst of civilization and kept away from my people for years and years in the midst of civilization under the best surroundings, I would not be here ; I would not be here pleading for my race. I would be useless in appearance and be useless to the Government, and I would be an idle reservation Indian at McDowell or at San Carlos. It is the severance. It looks cruel, but see for yourself; do you need a better illustration? I claim that my people whom I left have been unfortunate and that I have been fortunate. Mr. Mondell. Do you think. Doctor, that it is the solution of the Indian question to take the Indian children from the reservations and educate them all with a view to scattering them among the white people so that the communities will be broken up and finally dis- seminated throughout the country as a whole? 386 EXPENDITUBBS IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT, Dr. Montezuma. That is their fate now, or will be. That is the prophetic outlook of the Indian race or any race that comes into this country. It is cosmopolitan. You can not colonize and be thor- oughly American; you have just to mix in. That is all there is to it. That is the American. Otherwise it is colonizing, a gradual process of bringing Indians into civilization. That is indeed following the rainbow. I remember a story. Excuse me. May I tell a story? The Chairman. If you deem it apropos, let us hear it. Dr. Montezuma. It is very sympathetic, like the story of the good old saint. A sympathetic man had a dog and the poor dog had a tail and the dog's tail was long and he concluded to cut the dog's tail off, but he did not want to hurt the dog, and so he concluded to cut the dog's tail off a little one day and a little the next day and so on until he cut the dog's tail entirely off, so as not to hurt him too much. Mr. MoNDELL. That has been applied to the present revision of the tariff? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensuet. That is putting the beneficiaries of the system in bad. Mr. Mondeli.. Is it your idea. Doctor, that the Indian should be separated from the soil and from the land of his father, and should be scattered, after being educated, among the white people? Dr. Montezuma. I mean, excuse me, that the children or any- body — that is, after they are of age or after they have reached school age, ought to be encouraged, you understand, to stay where they can rub up against the world. Do you not see ? The idea is to pre- pare them to combat the world. You know that if I were going to get ahead of you in a horse race or with a lawsuit or anything I would play the same cards. That is the idea in regard to what I want to give to the Indian children and to all the Indians, so that they mav play the same card as all other races play in America. Mr. MoNDELL. I agree with you entirely that the higher education that the Indian receives at the nonreservation school is very con- siderably worthless to him on the reservation, but if you give all the Indians that higher and thorough education, does not that in- volve the thought that they are never — any of them — ^to return to their former country and their people, and that that means the wiping out of the Indian communities ? Dr. Montezuma. Do you not think that would be the best thing for them? Mr. MoNDELii. If I were an Indian I am inclined to think that I would want to retain the Indian as not necessarily the only occupant of a given region, but that I should have the opportunity of looking forward to the time when there would be large conomunities which would be largely of Indian blood rather than to have my race wiped out. The Chairman. Mr. Mondell, you are taking too much time. We must make some progress. Mr. Mondell. I know, but this is interesting. Dr. Montezuma. It is very interesting. The Chairman. Yes; but we can hear you, Mr. Mondell, when these people are not waiting at the expense of the Government. Then we will be glad to listen to your views, but you are really tak- ing up too much time. EXPENDIXUKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 387 Mr. MoNDELL. I was asking the Doctor a question. The Chairman. But the questions you ask bear the relation of only about five to one hundred to the time consumed in giving your views, which are very interesting, I admit, but we must make some progress. Mr. MoNDELL. I must say that they are very much more to the point than a great many questions which have been asked. The Chairman. I think you are right, but we must make some progress. Doctor, will you give the committee your views as to whether the Government should devote its time to the improvement of the adult Indian whose habits are fixed and staid or to the children whose habits are not formed? Dr. Montezuma. What we sow, that we reap. The old Indian of the present time is just the result of the reservation system of 40 years. We see that that to a certain extent was a mistake. Now, if we have been mistaken we had better go back and start right. That is why I believe in looking after the next generation, the children. If you treat the Indian children as you would your own children, you will not be mistaken. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it true — I beg your pardon. Dr. Montezuma. That will answer. Mr. MoNDELL. Is it true that anywhere in the country the children of entire communities are taken away, all of them, to distant schools to be educated? Is that true anywhere? Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Then, in doing what you propose we would not be doing what we do with our own children and we would be practicing an entirely different policy? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. George. But a large portion of the children of the United States go to boarding schools and colleges, both girls and boys. Mr. Mondell. A very small percentage of boys and girls go to boarding schools and colleges. The Chairman. Of course, the question is hardly relevant, for the reason that the Government has not the same power over the ordi- nary children as over the Indians. If they had, it might be very proper to take the children living in the slums of the large cities and send them to school, but it is neither practical nor legal. In the Indian's case it is diffeient; they are the wards of the Government, and the Government can do as it chooses. Dr. Montezuma. I must have been misunderstood. I have said, " Treat the Indian as your own children." Where do you send your children to school ? I am not referring to nonreservation or reserva- tion schools. Mr. MoNOELL. I keep mine at home. Dr. Montezuma. That is what the reservation school is. The Chairman. Do any of the white children attend the reserva- tion school. Mr. Mondell. Yes ; they do on many of the reservations. The Chairman. But a comparatively small percentage of the chil- dren would be white children ? Mr. Mondell. That, of course, depends on the number of white people there. They go to school together. 388 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOH DEPAETMBNT. What you look forward to, then, is the separation of the Indian from the soil and his seeking to be a member of a pastoral or farming community, and his going forth into the world to take his place in other pursuits? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir ; as all other men do. Mr. Hensley. It is freedom of action ? Dr. Montezuma. Do not show him off as an Indian all the time. Mr. MoNDELL. It is not a question of freedom of action. If you permitted him to do what he pleased in a majority of the cases h& would remain on the reservation. But your idea is to remove the children from the reservations and give them such education as would not tend to take them back to the reservations, but would tend to dis- tribute them throughout the communities? Dr. Montezuma. That is right. Mr. George. To free the Indian from the prison life within the reservation ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. Geokge. That is largely it, is it not? Dr. Montezujia. Yes, sir. When you relieve the Indian from' that prison life you have given him light from the outside world. It is not property imprisonment that is material. It is the life, the soul of the individual — the mental faculties are stunted. You know if I were a reservation Indian and came out and had some light, and I saw that my possibilities had been frustrated, I would sue the Gov- ernment of the United States for damages. Mr. Mom DELL. The Indian is at liberty to leave the reservation whenever he sees fit, and take up any other pursuit he desires? Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. Mr. MoKDELL. Do you mean to say that he is not legally? Dr. Montezuma. Force of habit, I presume. Mr. MoNDELL. There is nothing in the law or the custom of the country to prevent his doing that? Dr. Montezuma. The force of habit is a great deal. Mr. MoNDELL. I realize that, but, as a matter of fact, the Indian is entirely free at any time to leave the reservation and go where he sees fit as an individual? Dr. Montezuma. I do not think so. I do not think he is free to do that, when you come right down to it. Mr. MoNDELL. Why not? Dr. Montezuma. The agent is the man. Mr. MoNDELL. But the agent has no power to keep him on the reservation if he sees fit to move off and go to work somewhere else? Dr. MoNTEzu:\rA. He has some effect. The CHAnniAN. AYhat effect? Has the agent the power to arrest him if he leaves the reservation? Dr. Montezuma. He has his policemen and he sends after him. Mr. MoNDELL. Did you ever hear of an agent arresting an Indian because he was going to leave the reservation and take up life outside, as an individual? Dr. Montezuma. Not for that reason, not because he was going to live outside. Mr. Hensley. Was there not a case of that kind tried in the Northern States where a tribe of Indians went from the South back North? iiiks^imJi BXPBNDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPARTMENT. 389 Mr. MoNDELL. T\1ien a tribe, as a tribe, leaves a reservation the Government is naturally interested, because they are under obliga- tions to take care of them, and it might be very difScult to take care of them at some point where they might move on land that did not belong to them. Mr. Henslet. In that case did not the Federal court decide that the Indian had freedom of action and could go wherever he pleased? I have a hazy recollection of reading that. Mr. MoNDEL. Several years ago a band of Indians, because they did not want to take their allotment in severalty, a small portion, made a long swing up through Wyoming and spent one summer in Wyoming. Mr. Henslet. As a band ? Mr. MoNDELL. As a band, and they removed them back to' the reservation ; they gave them the means to get back to the reservation, because they had spent all their money and traded off their ponies. The Chairman. Do you know. Doctor, what the practice is when Indians leave, for instance, with a circus or shows ; do they go of their own free will ? Dr. Montezuma. They are induced. The Chairman. Do they require the leave of the agent in that case? Dr. Montezuma. They sign a contract to that effect. The Chairman. I know, but does the agent have any control or can they contract regardless of the agent ? Dr. Montezuma. The agent has control. The Chairman. Who collects the wages? Dr. Montezuma. I do not know. Mr. Mondell. Do not they personally collect them in those cases? Dr. Moktezuma. I do not knovv'. Mr. Mondell. Is not the question of contracting in that case simply one as to whether the Indian Office shall give its assent to the policy of the Indians leaving for a life which may be degrading, and is not that the foundation of that policy of giving permits? Dr. Montezuma. The degrading environments of a circus life is what ought to be considered. It is sanctioned by the agent. Mr. Mondell. That is, the Indian Office hesitates to give its sanc- tion to Indians going into that kind of employment without knowing something about the peoisle who are going to manage the show, but there is nothing to prevent an individual Indian from leaving and going into that work ? The Chairman. If you do not know, just say so, and if you do know, say so. We must make progress. Dr. Montezuma. I do not remember. Mr. Mondell. The Indian Office has from time to time had re- quests made by managers of wild-west shows for a certain number of Indians to go with the show? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. And in some cases they have given the permission and in others they have withheld it. That policy, however, is not based on the fact that the Indian has not the right to go, as I under- stand it, but the Indian Office does not want to give its consent unless confident that the Indians will be well fed, well taken care of, paid 390 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. regularly, and not placed in environments that will be degrading to them? The Chairman. Doctor, do you know about that? Dr. Montezuma. I do not know. The Chairman. There is another question, and about the only one I have in mind, upon which I would like to get your views. As I understand it, the object of the ^Government is to taper off in its treatment with the Indian, so that ultimately he will be what you desire him to be, an independent man, a man of his own action, and that it is for that purpose that the Indian Bureau has been estab- lished. Do you know whether or not I am right? Dr. Montezuma. That is the real object. The Chairman. Assuming that to be true, what progress has been made within your recollection ? Is the bureau growing less, tapering off, and the Indian growing bigger and nearer independence or not? Dr. Montezuma. It is not. The Indian Bureau seems to be en- larging, preparing a permanent home. The Chairman. For whom? Dr. Montezuma. I presume for the employees. The Chairman. Do you mean white employees or the Indians ? Dr. Montezuma. The employees of the Government. It seems to me that the Indian is secondary to-day and the employees must be kept at work. ^Vhen I visited the Indian Bureau it looked to me as though they were enlarging. They have added departments in the Indian Bureau ; I do not know, about 20 different departments, that do not belong there, belong to the Smithsonian Institute, as it were. They have converted the Indian Bureau, combined it with some other departments in the Government work. The Chairman. Have you any in mind to illustrate what you are saying ? Dr. Montezuma. Well, I refer to the education department. We have the agricultural department, we have the commercial depart- ment, we have the industrial department, we have the hospitals for insane for Indians, tuberculosis department for Indians. You have, as I read some years ago, Indian art, Indian music, Indian legends, and Indian historians. Those are a few or some of the additions, the last especially. The Chairman. All within the Indian Bureau? Dr. Montezuma. Within the Indian Bureau now, and the irriga- tion projects, and the forestry department is another. The Chairman. Is it your judgment that those agencies of the Government should be elsewhere than in the Indian Bureau or that they should not be at all? Dr. Montezuma. They should be elsewhere beside in the Indian Bureau. If you want an Indian to take up farming, has not every State an agricultural college? If you want to teach commercial bookkeeping and shorthand, writing and typewriting, send them right into the cities. That is common sense. I am speaking com- mon sense. If you want Indian art and Indian music and Indian legend, the Smithsonian Institute is just the place. [Laughter.] Indian drama, and so forth, we have introduced in order to amuse them. They must have amusement, you understand. If you want to teach them about the drama, we have dramatic schools in the EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKTOB DEPARTMENT. 391 cities. It is pretty degrading to put Indians in the theatricals or vaudeville ; it degrades instead of helping them. Mr. MoNDELL. You say that we have State agricultural colleges and industrial and commercial schools ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. The Indians, of course, have the right to attend the schools, if they see fit to do so, at any time ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. But do they, as a matter of fact ? Dr. Montezuma. They have never been encouraged. Mr. MoNDELL. How do you mean " never encouraged ? " Dr. Montezuma. The department has been their guide. Mr. MoNDEUL. "Would you say that the department instead of maintaining Indian nonreservation schools should simply scatter the Indians among the schools already established ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir ; that would be good. Mr. MoNDELL. But would you not say that they were responsible for those children taken from the reservations and scattered among the schools ? Dr. Montezuma. Have you ever heard of the " outing " system at Carlisle? Mr. MoNDEUL. I have no doubt that is a very effective system, but if you scattered them broadcast through a great many schools it would be very difficult for the department to retain that supervision over them which it is their duty to retain to see that they are not illy used, or that they are not unnecesarily led into temptation. Dr. Montezuma. It would be a very delightful undertaking. The Chairman. What is your answer? Dr. Montezuma. It would be very delightful work to see the development of the Indian children in the public schools, industrial schools, commercial schools, and agricultural schools where the white children attend. The Chairman. I am requested to ask the doctor what change, if any, has been m.ade in the method of teaching at Carlisle since Gen. Pratt left it, with reference to the practical nature of the work done. Do you understand that ? Dr. Montezuma. I understand the teaching is from the teacher. It is oral, as it were, from the teacher, instead of bringing the children in contact with the object. The Chairman. You mean by a lecture system ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir ; the lecture system. The Chairman. For instance, would they teach blacksmithing by lectures ? Dr. Montezuma. No; the blacksmith does the work, and the In- dians look on. [Laughter.] Mr. George. That is very much like a New York man studying salmon fishing by correspondence ? Dr. Montezuma. That is the method. The Chairman. Do you mean that that system is carried out gen- erally there ? Dr. Montezuma. Generally, at present. What can you expect? Mr. MoNDELL. They do not have as much direct industrial instruc- tion and training as formerly ? 392 EXPENDITURES IN xmsi iiN xai-vj-uxv jimi-smnr^ij^^,^. Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Generally, is it your experience that the nonreserva- tion schools emphasize too much the sciences and do not teach suffi- cient practical trades ? Dr. Montezuma. When they do that, they get off of the idea for which the nonreservation school is instituted. The idea of the school is to put in as much practical knowledge within the limit of j&ve years so he may get something to be useful to him when he goes out. Mr. MoNDELL. While you believe in the nonreservation schools, you believe that the nonreservation schools should be largely industrial in character? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. That is the modem method of teaching nowadays. Mr. George. Did I understand that the reason very largely that the Indian children do not go off is that they are under the influence or that their parents are under the influence of the agent or superin- tendent of the reservation who, while he does not say, " You can not go," has an influence which forbids them? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. George. He can say " Washington " in such a way as to give an Indian to understand that Washington would oppose it? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. Mr. George. Am I clear in my understanding? Dr. Montezu:.ia. Yes, sir; an influence. It is influence. It may be a principal teacher. Mr. George. "You must stay here? " Dr. Montezuma. And if the Indian goes off some influence is used. Mr. MoNDELL. Before the reservation schools were established, the entire influence of the agents was in the direction of getting the chil- dren to go, under orders from the department, was it not? Dr. Montezuma. To what school? Mr. Mondell. To the nonreservation schools ? Dr. Montezuma. Before the reservation schools were established? Mr. MoNDELL. Before the day school was established. Dr. Montezuma. They had no day school in those days. Mr. MoNDELL. I understand ; but "before the day-school system was adopted, the instructions to the agents were to the effect that they should persuade the Indians to send their children away to school, was it not ? Dr. Montezuma. They did not have any, and they could not be adopted, it seems to me. .Mr. Mondelu But there were thousands of Indians in the non- reservation schools. Dr. Montezuma. No; there was only one nonreservation school that stood out prominently, and that was the Carlisle School; and every agent, and even the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, they thought it was useless to build such schools ; it was nonsense, and they would not encourage any Indians to go from the reservations to the Indian schools. Mr. Mondell. There are at least seven large Indian reservation schools, in addition to there being smaller ones? Dr. Montezuma. There are now. 3 DEPABXMENT. 393 Mr. MoNDELL. There have been for years a large one in Kansas and a large one in California, and I have in mind another at Hampton. Dr. Montezuma. I am speaking of the time before these schools were built. Let me see; in 1879 Carlisle was built. That was the first Indian school, it seems to me, that was built. That was in 1879. After that day schools were started. Mr. MoNDELL. Yes; but for years after that was it not the policy of the department to send the Indian children to the nonreservation schools as far as possible? Dr. Montezuma. It was the policy to give them schooling some way or other ; but it was years afterwards, as you say, when Carlisle proved to the world that there was something in the Indian that could be developed. Mr. MoNDELL. And it is only recently, comparatively, that the day school of the reservation has been generally established? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, it has been established since when Morgan was the commissioner. Mr. MoNDELii. I understand ; but the general policy of day schools has been accentuated and enlarged in the last few years ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; that is true. Mr. MoNDELL. My recollection is that for years the Indian Bureau took the view that they should get as many children in nonreserva- tion schools as possible, and that recently the department has rather taken the view that they would get better results through the day schools ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. In your testimony yesterday you spoke about your residence on the reservation, where you were the practicing physi- cian—the reservation physician. Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. You intimated, or said flatly, that you very quickly learned that there were certain things that you must not meddle with? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. That you better not know about ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. That your business on that reservation was to be a physician and nothing else? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. And that whatever your feelings about the injustice to Indians might be, you said nothing and did nothing ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. I understood you to mean that so great was the power of the agents or superintendents to punish you that you thought it wise, in your own interest, to say nothing ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. George. I should like to ask you whether this same power does not exert itself in respect to the Indian who might want to go off the reservation or to send his children off the reservation? Would not that same influence that taught you not to meddle in affairs, even where it was a question of justice to another, assert itself in respect to an Indian or his children going off the reservation ? 394 EXPENDITXJKES IN TJAJli J.JN TJiiitluit jjiijrAJixivj.iLj.ii. Dr. Montezuma. It would. Mr. George. Even though he would like to send his child to a school elsewhere, if he thought that the agent, for any reason whatsoever, would not desire him to do so, or if in his mind a question arose as to what might be the policy of the agent, would he not feel this influence and be subject to it, and refrain from sending his child ? Dr. Montezuma. It is so. Mr. Mondell. Mr. Chairman, are we to have the Doctor before us further? The Chairman. Why, as long as he stays in town, he can come any time. Mr. Mondell. There are one or two questions on another line that, if he was not to be before us again, I would like to ask him. The Chairman. I do not know about when he will leave. Dr. Montezuma. I would like to leave as soon as I can. The Chairman. There are a few questions that I would like to ask that have been developed by the later questions asked you. Doctor. Am I right in my view that the estimates on which the appropria- tions for the agency school are made depend upon the attendance at the agency school? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The CiiAiR5iAN. That is, the larger the enrollment, the more money appropriated for that school? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Am I also right when I say, or when I think, that the agent would be interested to the extent of using a good deal of his power to compel the parents to send their children to the agency school in order that estimates and appropriations for that school might be large? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And to that extent he would oppose sending the children off the reservation to school? Dr. Montezuma. He would. The Chairman. Along the line suggested by Mr. George and others of the committee, and yourself, would that power be sufScient to keep children from going off the reservation to other schools, who would like to go? Dr. Montezuma. It would be. The Chairman. And whose parents would like to have them go? Dr. Montezuma. It would be. The Chairman. You said a moment ago in answer to a question that about all the agent needed to do to make an implied threat against the Indian and keep him from doing something, or to compel him to do something that the agent wanted him to do, was to say " Washington " to him. I would like to have you explain more fully than you have done, if you can, what that implied threat means to the Indian. Is it a threat of love, or a threat of force, or what is it? Dr. Montezuma. It is a threat sufficient to get the Indian to do just what he wishes him to do. The Chairman. I know, but I want to go beyond that. Does he do it because of his respect for the Great Father at Washington? Dr. Montezuma. No, sir. The Chairman. Or does he do it through fear of some sort, and it through fear, what is that threat of? What kind of fear is it? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 395 Dr. Montezuma. What is the Indian's fear? The Chairman. The Indian's fear of " Washington " ? Dr. Montezuma. The Indian's fear of the penalty that he will have to pay if he does not side with the agent. The Chairman. Does it mean to him that the whole power of the Government is back of the agent, and will do whatever the agent desires ? Dr. Montezuma. Why, certainly ; that is the belief of the Indian, He has been taught that for the last 40 years. The Chairman . Does it extend so much as to the use of the Army ? Dr. Montezuma. Oh, yes. For example, here is a case up in Minne- sota or Wisconsin, and then another one down at Navajo, and another one down at Oklahoma. That was the power that the agent had^ to call for the Army. The Chairman. Does the Indian ordinarily act on the belief that the agent can bring those results about if he pleases ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes ; if he pleases. The Chairman. And that it is with him to say whether it will be done or not ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; that is his belief. He depends all, as it were, on the agent. The Chairman. To him, then, the agent practically means Wash- ington ? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly. The Chairman. And all the power that Washington implies? Dr. Montezuma. Yes, sir. Mr. George. That is where that line of Tennyson applies again. The agent is " the God Almighty of the countryside." The Chairman. Do you wish to continue sitting until 1 o'clock, as we did yesterday? Mr. MoNDELL. Did you say you were going to call Dr. Montezuma again ? The Chairman. I did not say so. What I said was, that so long as the Doctor stayed in Washington I had no doubt he would be glad to come when he was requested to. Dr. MoNTEziTMA. If I can be dismissed this afternoon I would like to be. The Chairman. You had better ask him what you want to now, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mondell. Doctor, what is your view as to the wisdom of cutting up reservations by making allotments, and then selling the balance of the land so that the white settlers will settle in around the Indian allotments and be a part of the community; or would you advise, as a policy, the retention, so far as possible, of the Indians in segregation, by themselves, possibly upon allotted lands, but with the common land surrounding them so that there would be no white set- tlers among them ? Dr. Montezuma. I am somewhat of a commercialist. I have' been civilized so long that I would look at it from a greedy viewpoint, That is, I would not dispose of an inch of any reservation. I would, pro rata, divide the reservation with the tribe, and I would get my freedom, sever myself from the Indian Department, and dispose of the land as I see fit, like any other man. 98240— Xo. 10—11 2 ■^96 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPAETMENT. Mr. MoNDELiv. Then your idea would be, speaking by and large— of course conditions differ and the rule does not apply everywhere— to divide the reservation pro rata among the Indians ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. All of the lands ? Dr. Montezuma. All of the lands. Mr. MoNDELL. And then to give them the power of alienation, ordinarily ? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. Immediately? Dr. Montezuma. They will look out for themselves. You can not put them upon flowery beds of ease and then think that after a while you can make something out of them. Mr. Hensley. You can not teach them to swim without putting them in water ? Dr. Montezuma. That is it. Let them paddle and fall and sink and swim, and so on. Mr. Mondell. Do you think that would be safe, to give them the land, with the power of alienation? Dr. MoNTEzuJfA. We have handicapped the Indian and kept him from getting into civilization. People have said, all the time, "Can the Indian do it ; can the Indian do it ? I do not think he can do it." The sentimentalist comes in, and he says, "Oh, do not let the Indian go that far; it is not good for him." Then here is the anthropologist who says, "The Indian can not get there. It took thousands of years for the white man, and I do not think the Indians are any better, than us, and you had better give him another thousand years." The Ciiaiejiajx. In the meantime the Indian Bureau keeps grow- ing? Dr. Montezuma. That is the idea. Mr. George. Does not the Indian get swindled out of his land, anyway, in the long run? Dr. Montezuma. Certainly, in the long run. Mr. George. Is he not being swindled out of his land these days, under the regulations of the Indian Office? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; it is the survival of the fittest. Mr. Mondell. How can the Indian be swindled out of his land if he has a 25-year alienation clause? How can he be swindled out of his land in that 25 years? Dr. Montezuma. Well, here is a lawyer in the Indian territory, and there is the Indian, and the land is mortgaged before he gets out of it. Mr. Hensley. He has contracts and that sort of thing? Dr. Montezuma. The Indian must have money, and he mortgages his land just like a white man. Mr. Mondell. That is, your idea is to give him his land and let him shift for himself, and close the Indian Office? Dr. Montezuma. I think so. You could not do that 40 years ago. Mr. Mondell. That would be very easy. Dr. Montezuma. But to-day, the Indians have rights, now. Years ago you could not do that. The Chairman. I am requested to ask the Doctor this question. Would you favor distributing and paying to the Indians their indi- vidual shares of their tribal funds? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 397 Dr. Montezuma. Yes; I would cut the dog's tail off right to the The Chairman. To the backbone? Dr. Montezuma. To the backbone and settle the matter. Mr. MoNDELL. Even though it meant turning him loose without a tail among the wolves? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. He will fall into divers places, you under- stand, just like anybody else. He will have to suffer a lot. I pity him; I pity him. The Chairman. Of course your story implies that ultimately the dog's tail would have to be cut off at that place, and ought to be? Dr. Montezuma. Yes. The Chairman. And you would cut it off at once? Dr. Montezuma. Yes; if we look at it in the right way we have to do it. You look at it in the right way and you see that, Mr. Leupp ? Mr. Leupp. Certainly I do. You will find that in all my reports. (At 12.15 o'clock p. m. the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.) after recess. The committee met, pursuant to tbe taking of recess, at 2 o'clock p. m. Charles Dickens was sworn as interpreter by the chairman. TESTIMONY OF YUMA FRANK. The witness was sworn by the chairman, and testified through an interpreter. The Chairman. Tell the committee your name. Mr. P'rank. Yuma Frank. The Chairman. You are an Indian, a full-blooded Indian? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Of what tribe ? Mr. Frank. Mojave Apache. The Chairman. Do you live on what is known as the McDoweu Reservation ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. What is your position in the tribe? Are you th» chief of that tribe of Indians? Mr. Frank. I am chief of the McDowell Indians. The Chairman. How long have you been chief? Mr. Frank. Eleven years. The Chairman. What is your occupation; what do you do for a living? Mr Frank. Farming. The Chairman. How much land have you ? Mr. Frank. I can not tell how much land I have got. I am an Indian. I do not count how much land. The Chairman. How much do vou cultivate; how much do yon ■farm ? Mr. Frank. Ten acres. The Chairman. Hma » yon a crcii nlnnted tl is ye;ir? Mi-. Frank. Yes. 398 EXPENDITURES IX THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. What have you planted? Mr. Frank. Wheat, barley, corn, pumpkins, watermelons, and sorghum. The Chairman. That is, sorghum cane? Mr. Frank. Yes; sorghum cane. The Chairman. How many acres of wheat have you ? Mr. Frank. Five acres. The Chairman. How many acres of barley ? Mr. Frank. All together, 5 acres of wheat and barley. The Chairman. Have you any pasture land on your 10 acres? Mr. Frank. I have a little patch. The Chairman. What farming tools have you of your own? Mr. Frank. A plow ; a two-horse plow. The Chairman. Have you a wagon ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. What did your wagon cost? Mr. Frank. $115. The Chairman. How long ago? Mr. Frank. Four years ago. The Chairman. Whom did you buy it from ? Mr. Frank. At Phoenix. The Chairman. From whom ? Mr. Frank. I do not remember. The Chairman. Was it from the Government agent, or was it from some private person? Mr. Frank. One of the white citizens in Phoenix. Mr. George. A private citizen ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Did you pay for it at the time you bought it? Mr. Frank. Yes; I paid all up when I bought the wagon. I paid $115. The Chairman. Did you have to get leave from the agent at McDowell or from anybody before you bought that wagon? Mr. Frank. Yes. I did not tell the agent, but I told the Indians that I wanted to go down and buy a wagon in Phoenix, and I went down there to buy the wagon, and bought the wagon down there in Phoenix. I did not tell the agent. Mr. George. You did not tell the agent? Mr. Frank. No. The Chairman. Where did you get your plow? Mr. Frank. I got it from the Government. The Chairman. Where? Mr. Frank. At McDowell. The Chairman. How much did you pay for it? Mr. Frank. It was made by the Government. I did not have to pay anything. The Chairman. You got it free? Mr. Frank. Free the first time. The Chairman. How long ago? Mr. Frank. Seven years ago. The Chairman. Have you any more than one plow? Mr. Frank. I have got another plow, a new plow, now, The Chairman. You have? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 399 Mr. Feank. Yes. The Chairman. Where did you get it? Mr. Frank. I got it from Mr. Coe. I got it by working. The Chairman. Mr. Coe is the agent? Mr. Frank. The agent. The Chairman. How much are you to pay for it? Mr. Frank. I do not remember how much it was. The Chairman. How are you to pay for it, in money or work? Mr. Frank. By work. The Chairman. How many days' work. Mr. Frank. Eight days. The Chairman. With a man, or a man and team? Mr. Frank. I work with the shovel, by hand, and three days with a team. The Chairman. How many days by hand labor? Mr. Frank. Five days. The Chairman. How did you get your harness? Mr. Frank. I got it from Mr. Coe, from the Government. The Chairman. Is that to be paid for by labor, too ? Mr. Frank. Yes; the same way, working. The Chairman. Is your whent crop cut, yet, this season? Mr. Frank. The wheat is ripe now, but I cut it one day, and I left my crop, now. The Chairman. How do you cut it? Mr. Frank. With a scythe, a hand scythe. The Chairman. Do you bind it in bundles after cutting? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. How do you thresh it — separate the grain from the straw? Mr. Frank. I do it with a horse. I have a big pile of wheat, and I round up and round up and round up until the wheat all falls out on the bottom. The Chairman. Do you do that on the ground, or do you have a sheet or something under it to keep it from being tramped into the earth ? Mr. Frank. On the ground. The Chairman. What will you do with the wheat; will you sell the wheat or will you take it to the mill and have it made into flour for your family, or what will you do with it ? Mr. Frank. Take it down to town and sell it. The Chairman. And the money you get for it is your own, to do what you please with ? Mr. Frank. To buy stuff; something to eat. The Chairman. And to buy clothes for your family and something to eat, and such as that ? Mr. Frank. Yes ; buy everything. The Chairman. How much family have you? Mr. Frank. Six. The CiiAiE>r.-\N. How many of them are able to work — are big enough to work in the field? Mr. Frank. Two of them. They are working already. The Chairman. What work do you do yourself ? Mr. FR.4NK. Working on rriy land. 400 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. What tools do you use in the work you do ? Mr. Frank. A shovel and rake ; clean out the ditches. The Chairman. How much of the time are you actually workin" during the year ? What I want to get at is about how many days do you work and how many days are you idle. Mr. Frank. I am Avorking all the time — from the time wh(rn we begin working until wintertime. The Chairman. Do you go away from your own place to wcsrk? Mr. Frank. Do you mean off the reservation? The Chairman. Yes; to work for wages for somebody? Mr. Frank. I do not go anywhere. I stay home all the time and work there. The Chairman. Do your boys go away from home and work— olT the reservation ? Mr. Frank. They go off the reservation. One went off and came back. The Chairman. What was he doing? Mr. Frank. Mines — mining work. The Chairman. Coal mines? Mr. Frank. Yes: coal mines. The Chairman. How much of j^our time have you spent working on the irrigation ditches for the Government — on the McDowell Ees- ervation ? Mr. Frank. Fifty cents a day, by work, hand, and teams get a dollar a day. The Chairman. How many days, for instance, in a year? Take this year, since last January — New Year's — how many days, about, have you worked for the Government that way? Mr. Frank. Three weeks. The Chairman. And how many days have your boys worked for the Government on the irrigation ditches? Mr. Frank. The same work — three weeks. The Chairman. Did they get the same wages you got? Mr. Frank. Yes; the same wages. The Ciiair:\ian. What made those hard or callous places on your hands [indicating palms of hands] ? Mr. Frank. I am working hard; that is why; working all the time. The Chairman. With what — with the plow or the spade or the shovel, or what did that? Mr. Frank. With the plow and shovel. The Chairman. How long have your hands been that way? Mr. Frank. Never had them any other way. My hands are just like this, in there, all the time, because I am working all the time. The Chairjian. Did you do any work on the ditch or ditches for which you did not get any pay? Mr. Frank. Yes. Dr. Montezuma. He says, " Yes ; sometimes I worked on the ditch when I didn't get any pay at all. I just worked because I wanted to get things fixed." Mr. Frank. Yes ; I get paid sometimes when I work on the ditch, and sometimes I do not get paid. The Chairman. Did the Indians make some canals or ditches there of their own accord? EXPENDITURES TN THE INTEETOR DEPARTMEKT. 401 Mr. Frank. Yes ; putting in what they call a brush dam. The Chairman. That you did not get any pay for? Mr. Frank. I did not get any pay for it. The Chairman. Did the Indians there make a canal some miles in length without the leave of the agent or the engineer, Mr. Code, at one time? Mr. Frank. I do not know the engineer. I did not see any engi- neer. The Chairman. Let me state that again. Did the Indians dig a ditch or canal there which took them three weeks or so to do it, under the direction of Tom Serrama? Mr. Frakk. I began way down below there digging up, and dig- ging up, nice and level, until we struck the water, even with the water of the riVer [indicating]. The Chairman. How long did it take to do that? Mr. Frank. Three weeks. The Chairman. How many men were working at it for three weeks ? Mr. Frank. Forty-nine men. The Chairman. Were you one of those? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Were your boys in it, also? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Did you get any pay for that? Mr. Frank. I did not get any pay this year. The Chairman. For that work? Mr. Frank. For that work, ditch work. The Chairman. How long a ditch was that, coming up and up and up ? How far did you come from where you began to the water ? Mr. Frank. Four miles. The Chairman. Does that ditch bring water to your land? Mr. Frank. I live 1 mile from the agency, at the head, you know. I live away up there on the head. The Chairiian. Then, if I understand you, this ditch that Tom Serrama had made does not bring water to your land, does it ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. It does? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Is it the only one that does? Mr. Frank. They live all together; one ditch. The Chairman. What kind of a house is on your land ? Mr. Frank. A lumber house. The Chairman. How manj^ rooms are there in it? Mr. Frank. Four rooms. The Chairman. Is it one story or two stories high ? Mr. Frank. One story. The Chairman. How long ago was it built? Mr. Frank. Seven years ago. The Chairman. How did you get the lumber that it is built of ? Mr. Frank. The house belonged to somebody, white people. The Chairman. Did 3'ou buy it? Mr. Frank. The Government bought it for me, with the land. The Chairman. Is the land that you live on some of the land that the Government bought from white settlers out of that money, forty- 402 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAB.TMBNT. odd thousand dollars, that the Government used for that purpose some years ago ? Is it one of the places that the Government bought from white people for Indians? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. That Frank Mead bought? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairjian. Was the house built when 3'ou got the land, or did you build the house after you got the land ? Mr. Frank. The house was built. The Chairman. When you got it? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Have you built any additional rooms to the house since you got it ? Mr. Frank. I didn't build anything. The Chairman. How do you get water for your family use? Have you a well or spring, or by what means do you get water ? Mr. Frank. I have got a well there. The Chairman. Dug down into the ground? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. How deep? Mr. Frank. I do not know how deep it is. The Chairman. How do you get the water out of it ? Mr. Frank. The settlers dug the well before. The Chairjian. What way is there of getting the water out? Have you a bucket or is there a pump ? Mr. Frank. A bucket. The Chairman. A bucket and windlass? Mr. Frank. A windlass; yes. The Chairman. The well was there when you went on the place, was it? Mr. Frank. Yes; when I went there the well was there. The Chairman. Do you know of any cases where Indians have dug wells themselves at their homes ? Mr. Frank. I had a well there already that the Government had bought and the house was there, and they had a well at each house except Charley. He dug a well by his house. The Chairman. Charley Dickens dug a well for himself? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. How far from the Verde River is your home? Mr. Frank. About 300 or 400 yards. The Chairman. Where did you live before you went to live there? Mr. Frank. I lived on a hill. The Chairman. How far away from where you are living now did you live before you went there? Mr. Frank. Before I went to McDowell? The Chairman. Before you went to the place where you now live? Mr. Frank. About half a mile. The Chairman. Did you farm then? Mr. Frank. No, sir. The Chairman. What did you do then? Mr. Frank. Just stayed there working for the whites. The Chairman. How many horses have you now? Mr. Frank. Five. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 403 The Chairman. How many of them are work horses? Mr. Frank. Four. The Chairman. Have you any cows? Mr. Frank. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you any other stock of any kind except horses ? Mr. Frank. I have got some chickens and turkeys, besides the horses. The Chairman. Have you the chickens and turkeys to sell, or just for your family use? Mr. Frank. I sell them. Some friends of mine down in Phoenix will write me a letter that they want to buy a turkey at Christmas time, and I will take them down. The Chairman. What do turkeys sell for there? Mr. Frank. Twenty cents a pound — turkeys. The Chairman. Are you satisfied to live the way you are now living? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Do you want to move to the Salt River Reser- vation ? Mr. Frank. No, sir ; I do not want to move to another place. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Frank. Because my home is at McDowell. The Chairman. If you could get 5 acres more on the Salt River Reservation and retain the home that you have now, would you be willing to take the 5 acres that way and keep your home where you are? Mr. Frank. What do I want to go down there for for .5 acres? I have got good land at my home. I have good land, better land at my home, McDowell. I have got a plenty of feed for the stock at Mc- Dowell. The Salt River Reservation — there is nothing down there for the stock. The Chairman. Do you get plenty of water on your land as it is now? Mr. Frank. Yes; plenty of water now. The Chairman. Do you think that the dam in the Verde, at the head of that ditch, can be kept there in such shape as to send water down the ditch to your place all the time ? Mr. Frank. I put up some posts in the water like this and like this [indicating] , and I put some brush on the top and then a whole lot of rock and fix it good in shape, and then the water will run in the ditch. The Chairman. That means that you think it can be done? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Is there any difficulty now in keeping the ditch clean and clear of the sand and moss and other stuff that fills it up ? Mr. Frank. Yes ; clean it out with a scraper. The Chairman. How often does it need to be cleaned ? Mr. Frank. Once in awhile. The Chairman. How often in one year. Mr. Frank. Two times a year. The Chairman. Is there any time in the dry season when the water in the Verde River gets so low that there would not be any water to go down to your land ? 404 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Fbank. There is plenty of water all the time, every year. It never dries up. The Chairman. Do you remember the Verde River ever getting so low that there would not be any water to go down the ditch from it? Mr. Frank. There is plenty of Avater; plenty of water. The Chairman. When the season is dry est, and the water runs lowest in the river, how wide is the stream or current of water in the river bed ? Mr. Frank. One hundred feet wide. Mr. Georoe. One hundred feet? Mr. Frank. Of water, yes. The Chairman. How wide? Mr. Frank. One hundred feet wide, of water. The Chairman. How deep would the water be for that width ? Mr. Frank. That much [indicating pit of his stomach]. The Chairman. That would be about 4J feet ? Mr. Frank. Five feet, I guess. The Chairman. What have you to say as to my question about the river in a dry time, when the river is lowest? Mr. Frank. It is not dry. The Chairman. I know, but in a dry season of the year, like July or August, when the least amount of water is running in the river, how wide is the stream or current of water, and how deep is it ? Mr. Frank. About so deep [indicating the pit of his stomach] . In July it is a little lower, down here [indicating his waist]. In Sep- tember it is high ; in August and September it is high. The Chairman. When is it lowest? When is the lowest water in the river? Mr. Frank. For one or two weeks; that is all. The Chairman. In what months? Mr. Frank. In August and September. The Chairman. During the month of August and the beginning of September, about how wide would the stream be in the river bed ? Mr. Frank. When the river is high? The Chairman. No; I understood you to say that the river is low in August and September, and at that time how much water is there? Mr. Frank. That much when it is high [indicating], and that much gone when the river is low [indicating the height of his waist]. The Chairman. When is the dry season, when there is the least water in the river? What time of the year would the water come to here [indicating], in August and September or in July [the chair- man placing his foot on the table and indicating half way between his foot and his knee] ? Mr. Frank. July. The Chairman. What time is it up here [indicating the height of his waist] ? Mr. Frank. It is much water in July, and in August and Septem- ber it is down. The Chairman. I give it up. Some of the rest of you can see what you can do. How is the water in the Verde for drinking; is it sweet and nice? Mr. Frank. It is good and sweet water to drink. The Chairman. Do you know the Salt River? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. 405 Mr. Frank. It is salty to drink. One time I passed the canal, and I took a drink, and it was very salty. The CHAiRMstiN. Was that below where the Verde and the Salt come together ? " Mr. Frank. Here they come together, the Salt and the Verde Rivers [indicating by drawing lines on table] . The Chairman. Did you ever drink water out of the Salt River above the place where the Verde comes into -it? Mr. Frank. They drink above the salt. I drank over here, and it was salty. The Chairman. Can you tell how many acres of wheat, alone, you planted this year; not wheat and barley, but just wheat? Mr. Frank. Two sacks and a half. The Chairman. Two sacks and a half of wheat? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. That would be about 5 bushels. Do you know how much land the white settler that lived there before you had irri- gated — how many acres? Mr. Frank. I do not know how many acres. The Chairman. I am speaking now of the land that the white settler had, which you are now on. Did the white settler have more land than 10 acres irrigated? Mr. Frank. There are lots of acres there, but the Government gave me 10 acres, where I lived. There is lots of land, a great big patch, with a fence all around it, but they gave me only 10 acres. Mr. Mondell. Do you understand that you could not farm more than 10 acres if you wanted to — you and your boys? Mr. Frank. I want some more, but the Government will not allow me any more than 10 acres. That is what we use all the time. I want some more land, but they will not allow it — the agent. Mr. Mondell. Would they not let you farm more ? Mr. Frank. No more ; except 10 acres ; that is all. There is plenty of land, but they will not let me have it. Mr. George. The agent would not let you have it ? Mr. Frank. Only 10 acres. Mr. George. Would you like to have some more? Mr. Frank. I would like to have some more, but they would not allow it. Mr. George. Could you find water for more? Mr. Frank. Sure; sure. Mr. George. If the agent would let you have more, would you take more and work it ? Mr. Frank. Yes; I want some more land; I want 100 to 150 or 200 acres. Mr. George. You would like to have that ? Mr. Frank. I would like to have that many acres. Mr. George. Could you work all that land ? Mr. Frank. Yes ; I can do it. Mr. Mondell. Is there other land under the ditch, besides your land, that some other Indian is not working? Mr. Frank. No ; they are working their own land. Mr. Mondell. You do not understand. Are they working all of the land that is around your land, or is there some land that is around yours that is not being worked at all ? 406 EXPENDITURES I2v' T ttii i iS TETnxrf;-TJjir AKlffiTJiTN X. Mr. Frank. No; the}' are getting other land. Mr. MoNDELL. There is no other land around that land that is not being worked * Mr. Frank. No. Mr. George. If you got 200 acres, would you go some other place for more land? Mr. Frank. No; that is enough for me, 200 acres. Mr. George. Where would you get 200 acres? You have 10 acres. Where would you get 200 acres? Ml'. Frank. Right there where I live. There is plenty of land right there, but I live on 10 acres. Mr. George. No Indian has got that land right near you ? Mr. Frank. Nobody except me. All the Indians have got land, but they live on ranches. The white settlers used to live there. Here is a ranch and there is another ranch and another ranch; a lot of ranches [making drawing] . Mr. George. You have only 10 acres. Mr. Frank. Ten acres on one big patch of land, there. Mr. George. There is lots of land around there vacant and nobody using it ? Mr. Frank. Nobody using it, except every ranch, they stay on. Mr. George. That house you live in belongs to one ranch? Mr. Frank. One ranch. Mr. George. Do white men have, cattle on the Indian lands at Mc- Dowell ? Mr. Frank. Yes; lots of cattle on the reservation. Mr. George. How many? Mr. Frank. Three or four hundred. Mr. George. White men's cattle ? Mr. Frank. White men's cattle. Mr. George. Do they pay for the pasturage? Mr. Frank. Yes; they used to pay when Mr. Gill was in charge of Fort McDowell, but now they do not pay anything. When Mr. Gill was in charge of Camp McDowell, that was the first time. Mr. George. He was the agent? Mr. Frank. Yes; he used to be. Mr. George. And Mr. Gill paid that money to the Indians? Mr. Frank. To the Indians. No ; while Mr. Coe is in charge, thej do not get anything. Mr. George. And do the cattle rove all over ? Mr. Frank. All over. Mr. George. Do those white men's cattle go on your land ? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. George. Have you fences around your land? Mr. Frank. Yes; a fence around, but when the cattle come down they jump right over the fence and eat my crops, sometimes. Mr. George. Have you complained to the agent? Mr. Frank. Yes; t have reported it, and the next day they do not believe me, they say. Mr. George. A^liat kind of a fence is it? Mr. Frank. A wire fence Mr. George. How do thej' break down the fence ? Mr. Frank. They jump over the fence. Mr. George. Is the fence low enough to jump over? EXPENDITURES IX THE INTEBIOE DErARTMENT. 407 Mr. Frank. That high; three wires [indicating height to his breast] . Mr. George. Do all Indians complain that way ? Mr. Fraiv'k. That way; yes. Mr. George. The white men's cattle go on all the Indians' lands? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. George. They jump over all the fences or break down the fences ? Mr. Frank. Some of them break down the fence; some of them get inside the fence [indicating]. Mr. George. You mean between the wires? Mr. Frank. Yes ; and break the fence down. Mr. George. How much damage? Mr. Frank. $13 ; a dollar a head damage. Mr. George. $1 for each animal? •Mr. Frai^k. Yes. Mr. George. That much damage? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. George. How much damage has there been to you since the first of the year — January 1 of this year? Mr. Frank. I did not get anything this year. Mr. George. How much damage this year ? Mr. Frank. I did not get any damage. Mr. George. How much did they eat up this year? Mr. Frank. Five or six cattle ate my crops. Mr. George. $1 each ? Mr. Frank. $1 each. That would make about $7 damage. Mr. George. Where do those cattle get water? Mr. Frank. Out of our ditch. Mr. George. Your ditch ; made by you ? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. George. Do tliey hurt the ditch any ? Mr. Frank. Sometimes they break it and sometimes not. Mr. George. Does the owner pay for that ? Mr. Frank. I do not get anything now. Mr. George. Did you ask for anything ? Mr. Frank. I asked Mr. Coe, but Mr. Coe did not pay me. Mr. George. What did Mr. Coe say ? Mr. Frank. I asked for damages, but Mr. Coe didn't say anything to me. I said to him I ought to get something for it. Mr. George. For damage to the ditch ? Mr. Frank. For damage to the ditch and to crops. Mr. George. And to crops ? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. Coe didn't say anything to me. Mr. George. Do other Indians complain, too, like that? Mr. Frank. The same way. George Dickens had about .5 acres of grain, and the cattle went in there and ate it all up, and the next morning he reiDorted to Mr. Coe, and Mr. Coe didn't say anything. It was all eaten up ; nothing but the ground, the next morning. The Chairman. Do you think the cattlemen are p;\ying iinybody for the use of this pasture on the McDowell Reservat on? Mr. Frank. Yes; that is what the Government says; if anv cattle go in on the reservation we will have to collect from so-neb:)dy — . the owner — damage. 408 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. But I am asking about the paying for the use of pasture on the McDowell Reservation. You said that during Mr. Gill's time they used to pay so much a head for the right to pasture their cattle at McDowell, and now they do not pay anything. Mr. Fr.vnk. They do not pay anything to the Indians. The Chairman. "What I want to know is whether you have any knowledge if they pay anybody anything now? Mr. Frank. They do not pay anything. The Chairman. How old are you? Mr. Frank. About as old as 47 years. The Chairman. Did you know Gen. Howard ? Mr. Frank. I heard of him — his name. The Chairman. Did you have anything to do in that campaign when Gen. Howard was down in that country? Mr. Frank. At McDowell ? The Chairman. Yes. Did you take any part in the war when Geronimo was out in the hills, there ? Mr. Frank. I never was with Gen. Howard, but with Gen. Crook. The Chairjian. Gen. Crook? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chair:«an. Do you remember Gen. Crook? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Did you do any work for Gen. Crook? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. What did you do? Were you a scout? Mr. Frank. Yes; a scout. The Chairman. State something that you did as a scout; where you went or what you saw. . Mr. Frank. I was with him as a scout, and followed Geronimo when he got out on the mountains.- The Chairman. Do you want any help from the Government now? Mr. Frank. Do you mean any help now? The Chairman. Do you want the Government to give you help, now; I mean money to buy horses or wagons or food or clothes; or are you willing to go ahead on your own hook and and make a hv- ing for yourself and your family, without help from the Govern- ment? ^.Tr. Frank. I do not want any more help from the Government. I wrnt to be a citizen. I want to worli. Mr. MoNDELT.. How much land do you think you can farm, your- self alone, without your boys? How many acres do you believe you youT'self can farm, and do you want to farm? Mr. Frank. Tf T got 100 or 200 acres I might hire somebody to wo!'k for me; but T can do, alone, for 100 or 200 acres, if I needit. Tf T do not need it, T may work at it and do something. But I think I need somebody to help me. Mr. MoNDETL. But how many acres could you farm yourself, without any other help, except perhaps in harvest you would have to have a little help, or some such time? How many acres could you yourself take care of, under ditch? Mr. Frank. Ten acres, for myself. Mr. MoNUET.T.. Th.fit of course would mean, then, 10 acres also for , ench of your boys, at least? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 409 Mr. Frank. I have got 10 acres of land, and not my sons. My sons, I am going co get them land, yet. They are young. Mr. MoNDELL. You have two boys? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. How old are your two boys that help you ? Mr. Frank. One of them is 25, the biggest boy, and one is 22. Mr. MoNDELL. Could you and your two boys take care of 40 acres, under ditch, of irrigated land, and crop it? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. You said in one answer awhile ago that you wanted to be a citizen. If you are a citizen you will have to pay taxes. Do you v/ant to pay taxes? Mr. Frank. Yes; I do. (At this point the witness was excused.) TESTIMONY OF CHAKLES DICKEUS. The witness was sworn by the chairman. The Chairman. What is your name? Mr. Dickens. My name is Charles Dickens. The Chairman. Have you any other name, an Indian? Mr. Dickens. My Indian name is So-ma-de-ga-kwa. The Chairman. What does that mean, in English? Mr. Dickens. It means "Crooked," in English. Mrs. Gray. Why do they call you "Crooked?" Are you crooked? The Chairman. Indian names go, like Rory O'More's dream, by contraries. How old are you? Mr. Dickens. I will be 33 next August, the 10th of August. The Chairman. What education did you have? Where did you go to school? Mr. Dickens. At San Carlos. The Chairman. That is the reservation school? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How long? Mr. Dickens. How long have I been to school? The Chairman. Yes.- Mr. Dickens. Three years and a half. The Chairman. At what age did you go? Mr. Dickens. I think I was about 13 or 14 years old. The Chairman. You read and write pretty well ? Mr. Dickens. I can read a little. The Chairman. How about writing? ' Mr. Dickens. A little. The Chairman. If you do not mind doing it, I wish you would write your name and address on that piece of paper beside you, for us. Mr. Dickens. My Indian name? The Chairman. No, "Charles Dickens," your English name — your American name? . (The witness wrote his name on the paper, as requested.) Mr. Dickens. I can write better, but this pen is not good. The Chairman. I have seen some of his letters, and he beats me. Mr. MoNDELL. He writes a better hand than I do. The Chairman. Where did you live, as far back as you remember? Mr. Dickens. You mean all the time? 410 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DBPABTMENT, The Chairman. Where were you living away back, when you were a child? Mr. Dickens. At Cottonwood ; what you call Cottonwood. The Chairman. Where is that, from McDowell? Mr. Dickens. It is above McDowell. The Chairman . It is a part of McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairmak. Have you ahvays lived there, except when you were at school? Mr. Dickens. No; I do not remember, myself. The Chairman. I mean, since you remember? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. You are related to Dr. Montezuma, I believe? Mr. Dickens. Yes; by letter. I know him. The Chairman. You and he are related by blood, or are cousins, in other words? Do you know about that? Mr. Dickens. No • I do not know, sir. The Chairman. You are related to George Dickens, here, are you not? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How are you related to him? Mr. Dickens. He is my brother. The Chairman. He is your brother? Mr. Dickeks. He is my brother. The Chairman. Have you anj cousins that you know of? Mr. Dickens. My mother told me I had a cousin back East, and sometime I found a letter by Indian name, Wa-sa-cha. Someone told me he heard about soinebody by the Indian name of Wa-sa-cha back East, the same relation. The Chairman. Is that the sairie person. Dr. Montezuma, who is here ? Mr. DitivETss. Afterwards I asked for his English name. I wanted to write to him. They said, " Dr. Carlos Montezuma." That is the English name. The Chairman. Are you married now? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How many in the family have you? Mr. Dickens. Four of us. The Chairman. Your wife and three children, is it? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Boys and girls both? Mr. Dickens. One girl and two boys. The Chairman. How old are your children? Mr. Dickens. The girl is 7 years old and the boys are 5, and a little one 3 months old now. The Chairman. You now li\e on the McDowell Keservation? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Do you live in a home that was built by one of the white settlers and bought by the Government ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. What kind of a house do you live in? Mr. Dickens. Oh, a little lumber house. The Chairman. How many rooms in your hou.se? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 411 Mr. Dickens. Now ? One room. The Chairman. One room? Mr. Dickens. One room. The Chairman. How large is it ? Mr. Dickens. Small; about 15 feet high, I think. It is a small lumber house. The Chairman. Is it made of boards that go up and down on the outside ? Mr. Dickens. Boards? The Chairman. Lumber, or both ? Mr. Dickens. Lumber [indicating]. The Chairman. And Avhat kind of roof has it? A shingle roof or a board roof ? Mr. Dickens. A shingle roof. The Chairman. Is the roof in good condition ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Does the house leak at all? Mr. Dickens. No leak. The Chairman. Is it plastered on the inside? Mr. Dickens. Yes; and outside, too. The Chairman. Have you a stove in it? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I have got no stove. The Chairman. How do you cook? How is the cooking done? Mr. Dickens. On a fire. We build a fire in the ground. The Chairman. You cook with wood which you get? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Is there any wood on your own land ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; plenty of wood. The Chairman. How much ? Mr. Dickens. Plenty. I can not tell how much. The Chairman. Is there any part of it where the trees are so thick that you can not cultivate it ? Mr. Dickens. Plenty of wood, sir. The Chairman. How many acres have you? Mr. Dickens. Ten acres. The Chairman. Of the 10 acres, how many can you plow ? Mr. Dickens. I can plow all the 10 acres for myself. The Chairman. Then you would have to plow in and out among the trees in some places, would younot? Mr. MoNDELL. Are the trees on this 10 acres ? Mr. Dickens. Not the trees on the land. Mr. Mondell. Do you put crops on 10 acres? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. Mondell. There are no trees on that 10 acres, then ? Mr. Dickens. There are no trees? Mr. Mondell. How far away from your place are the trees? Mr. Dickens. Just close; but there are no trees on the acres. Mr. Mondell. On the 10 acres? Mr. Dickens. Yes: no trees. The Chairman. How near the river do you live? Mr. Dickens. About 700 yards. The Chairman. That would be pretty nearly half a mile ? 9S240— No. 10—11 3 412 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMJi JN T. Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Is there any other Indian having land between you and the river? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How long have you lived where you are living now ? Mr. Dickens. Seven years. The Chairman. Do you have any help in cultivating your 10 acres, or do you do it all yourself? Mr. Dickens. I do it myself. The Chairman. How many horses have you? Mr. Dickens. Five. The Chairman. How many of them are work horses ' Mr. Dickens. Three. . The Chairman. How many plows have you ? Mr. Dickens. One. The Chairman. Is it a one-horse or a two-horse plow ? Mr. Dickens. One horse. The Chairman. How wide a furrow does it cut? Mr. Dickens. That much [indicating with his hands]. The Chairman. About 10 inches? Mr. Dickens. Ten inches. The Chairman. Do you ever work two horses to it, or have you harness and arrangements to work two horses together? Mr. Dickens. Sometimes I work it if I plant such long acres; I can use the two horses. The Chairman. The ground that you work is sandy ? There are no rocks or stumps or anything of that sort in it, such as you see in the country around here ? Mr. Dickens. No rocks and no stumps; good land. The Chairman. What have you planted in your farm this year? Mr. Dickens. Wheat and barley. The Chairman. How many acres of wheat? Mr. Dickens. Five. The Chairman. Tell me how you sow the wheat. How do you put it in the ground — the seeds? Mr. Dickens. Like this [indicating motion with his hand of sow- ing broadcast]. The Chairman. Do you plow the ground first ? Mr. Dickens. No, no ; I do not plow first ; just scatter it all on the field [indicating], and then plow it under. The Chairman. Plow it under, do you? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Plow the seed under? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Have you a harrow? Mr. Dickens. Yes; harrow the ground. The Chairman. Have you any other tools but the plow and harrow ? Mr. Dickens. No; that is all. The Chairman. Has your wheat been cut this year, yet? Mr. Dickens. Well, yes; I got it half cut, and then I left it. The Chairman. Is the rest standing? . EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 413 Mr. Dickens. Standing yet; I guess. Nobody helped; I guess. The Chairman. You cut it, I suppose, with a scythe, too? Mr. Dickens. I cut it with a single. The Chairman. By hand? Mr. Dickens. No; a single scythe. Mr. MoNDELL. What they call a sickle? Mr. Dickens. A single; yes. Mr. Mondell. You get hold of the wheat with your left hand, and then cut with your right [indicating] ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Why do you not use a scythe to cut your wheat? Mr. Dickens. I do not know how. The Chairsian. Have you ever seen the chief use his, as he told you — use a scythe to cut it? Mr. Dickens. No; I did not see any scythe. The Chairman. Did you ever see wheat cut with a scythe ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; but I use a single scythe [indicating]. Mr. Latimer. Is not that what the chief meant? The chief made the same motion that you have just made. Did he not mean a sickle instead of a scythe? Mr. Dickens. A single scythe. Mr. George. Did the chief use a sickle ? Mr. Dickens. Did I say sickle, or " single " ? Single scythe, I said. Mr. Mondell. Do any of the Indians cut their wheat with a scythe [making motion of a man cradling] ? Mr. Dickens. No; they do not use a scythe like that. Mr. Mondell. Do they cut grass with a scythe? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; the wheat ; cut wheat with a scythe. Mr. Mondell. Do they all cut the wheat with a sickle ? Mr. Dickens. With a sickle ; that is all ; no machine. The Chairman. Has he got a sickle confounded with one of these cradles ? Mr. Mondell. I do not think they ever had a cradle [making motion of a man cradling]. Mr. Dickens. No ; I never had that thing. Mr. Mondell. When you cut the wheat you put your left hand around the wheat, like that [indicating] ? Mr. Dickens. Around the wheat, like that [indicating]. Mr. Mondell. And then you cut it [indicating with right hand] ? Mr. Dickens. Yes [indicating with right hand] . The Chairman. You cut with a thing like that [making drawing of a sickle] ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; like that. That is it. The Chairman. Do you thresh your wheat the same way that the chief said he threshed his ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; the same way. The Chairman. Do you not realize that you lose a lot of the grain that way ? Mr. DiCKEHje. No; no. The Chairman. Did you ever see what they call a flail for thresh- ing? (Mr. Mondell here indicated the motion of a man using a flail.) 414 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Two sticks tied together in the middle, and you pound the grain with one of them ? Mr. Dickens. No ; I never saw it. The Chairman. What other grain did you have this year ? Mr. Dickens. Barley. The Chairman. How much barley did you have? Mr. Dickens. Two and a half acres, nearly two and a half acres. The Chairman. You plant it and harvest it the same as wheat do you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. And thrash it the same way, too ? Mr. Dickens. The same way. I thrash the wheat first and after- wards thrash the barley. The Chairman. How man}' bushels or bags of wheat do you get from your 5 acres, or ought you to get ? Mr. Dickens. This year ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Dickens. I do not know. I can not tell you. The Chairman. Last year? How many bushels or bags to the acre do you usually get ? Mr. Dickens. Last year I did not raise anything. I went to work at the mines. The Chairman. You did not farm your land ? Mr. Dickens. No; I did not farm. I got permission from the agent to be absent one year. The Chairman. Do you realize that on land such as yours, irri- gated with plenty of water all the time, you ought to raise 20 or 30 bushels to an acre, and that with 5 acres in, that would give you from 100 to 150 bushels of wheat, which would be quite a little fortune? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. That is, if you save it all ; but if you tramp it out and tramp a lot of it in the ground, of course you will not get any- thing for that. Does the agent ever tell you about better methods for saving your grain and handling it? Mr. Dickers. He did not tell me anything. The Chair3ian. Has not anybody ever showed you, for instance, the use of a flail to thrash with ? Mr. Dickens. Nobody. The Chairman. These tAvo sticks that I told you of? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Or told you not to tramp it out in the soft ground, where a great deal of it would be tramped into the ground and lost? Mr. Dickens. Well, before we thrash, you know, on the ground we water it and we level it, like this, and water it and water it, and then when it is dry it is a little harder on the ground. Mr. MoNDELL. Your thrashing floor is always hard? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. And you just walk the horses around and around on that ground? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; and then we get it down and down and down until the grain is all out. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 415 Mr. MoNDELL. Have you gathered your barley this year ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. What did you do with it^-stack it? Mr. Dickens. I stacked it until I could get back and thrash it. Mr. MoNDELL. It is in the stack now ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; half of it is in the stack. Mr. MoNDELL. Did you have a good crop of barley ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I guess so, maybe. It was good seed, that long [indicating] . Mr. MoNDEii,. With heads that long? Mr. Dickens. The heads are that long now on the wheat. Mr. MoNDELL. Well filled? Mr. Dickens. Well filled; all good. The Chairman. Was there any use made of your 10 acres last year at all? Mr. Dickens. No ; I did not use it. The Chairman. Did you have the right, without consulting the agent or anybody, to leave your land and go off and work in the mines last year ? Mr. Dickens. I didn't put nobody on my place. The Chairman. I know, but did you have to get leave from any- body ; did you have to have permission to go to work in the mines ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. From whom did you get permission? Mr. Dickens. From Mr. Coe. The Chairman. The agent or superintendent? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Was that in writing? Mr. Dickens. He gave me permission. The Chairman. In writing? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Did you have to get that permission? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I got permission of Mr. Coe, and he gave me a pass to be absent one year from the Camp McDowell Reservation ; and so I went away last summer, and I was absent from July until in June. The Chairman. Where was your family during that time — your wife and babies? Mr. Dickens. I took them along. The Chairman. They went with you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Where did you go ? Mr. Dickens. To the Ray mines. The Chairman. Where was that ? Mr. Dickens. I think about 100 miles from Phoenix ; I think over 100 miles. The Chairman. Did you take all your horses with you ? Mr. Dickens. No ; we went on the cars — the train. The Chairman. How ? Mr. Dickens. We went on the train. The Chairman. What did you do with your horses ? Mr. Dickens. I left them at home with my brother. I left all my tools with him. 416 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you have a pasture for your horses or do you just turn them out when you are not using them? Mr. Dickens. Turn them out, outside of the fence. We have plenty of feed there for the horses. Mr. Geokge. Do you have to have a pass to leave the reservation? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; we always have a pass to go. Mr. George. If you do not have a pass, you can not go? Mr. Dickens. If I do not have a pass, I can not go. If I do not have a pass with me, I get arrested. Mr. George. You get arrested if you do not have a pass? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. George. Mr. Coe would have you arrested ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I guess so. They would arrest me if I did not have a pass. We always get a pass from the superintendent. Mr. George. You are afraid to go without a pass ? Mr. Dickens. Without a pass. The Chairman. Do you know the McDowell Eeservation pretty well, all over it? Mr. Dickens. Pretty good. The Chairman. How long is it from north to south ? Mr. Dickens. How is that? The Chairman. How far is it from north to south ? Mr. Dickens. The reservation ? The Chairman. Yes; the McDowell Eeservation. Mr. Dickens. Ten miles. The Chairman. Have you been all over it ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I have been all over it. The Chairman. On both sides of the river ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. How wide did you say it was ? Mr. Dickens. Ten miles long and 4 miles wide, I think. The Chairman. The river is about in the middle of it, north and south ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; in the middle of it. The Chairman. Have you been on both sides of the river a good deal? Mr. Dickens. A good deal; yes. The Chairman. How far up the Verde River have you been north of McDowell? Mr. Dickens. Outside of the reservation? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Dickens. I didn't go any farther than from the reservation; except in the reservation, you know. I go on both sides. The Chairman. 'V\1iat time in the year is the water lowest in the Verde River? Mr. Dickens. In August and September. The Chairman. At that time, Charley, tell us, as well as you can, about how much water there is in the river ? Mr. Dickens. About here [indicating the height of his breast]. The Chairman. When it is low, about September and August? Mr. Dickens. I can not tell in English, but I will say there is that much water [indicating the height of the pit of his stomach]. BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 417 Mr. MoNDEii,. Did you ever see a time when there was no water running in the river at low water ? Mr. Dickens. No ; I never saw the water like that. The water is running all the time. The Chairman. How wide is it ? I mean the water, not the river bed ; the stream of water running, in the lowest time of the year, is about how wide ? Mr. Dickens. About 100 feet wide. Mr. MoNDELL. How wide? Mr. Dickens. About 100 feet wide. Mr. MoNDELL. When there is little water ? Mr. Dickens. When there is little water it is 100 feet wide, and when the water is raised it will run over a great deal more, maybe 200 feet wide. The Chairman. What time of the year is the water high ? Mr. Dickens. In July. The Chairman. What makes the water high in July ? Mr. Dickens. It is rainy. The Chairman. Where are the rains ? Mr. Dickens. Up on the mountains. The Chairman. How is it along about Christmas ? Mr. Dickens. At Christmas there is no rain. Mr. MoNDELL. Is there any water in the river at Christmas ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; water all the time; never dry. The water is running all the time, since I have been there. The Chairman. When was the Verde River the lowest that you remember; that is, when was there the lowest water in the river since you have been there? Mr. Dickens. I have never seen any of the lowest water since I have been there. The Chairman. Has there ever been a time that you know of when there was not enough water in it to run in this ditch that the chief told about, and to send water down the ditch to the farms? Mr. Dickens. How much water do you say? The Chairman. Enough to send water down there to the farms ? Mr. Dickens. He lives on another ditch, and I live on another ditch, too. I live on the Mazoon ditch, and 4 miles from the agency. The Chairman. Was there ever a time when there was not water enough in that ditch Mr. Dickens. Plenty of water. The Chairman. Was there ever a time when there was not plenty of water? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mrs. Gray. When the dam was broken? Mr. Dickens. When the dam is broken, the water is gone, and we fix the dam right away as soon as we can. The Chairman. Was there water enough in the river if the dam had been all right? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. What broke the dam? Mr. Dickens. The river. The Chairman. The flood? 418 EXPENDITURES IN Mr. Dickens. A flood. The Chairman. What was the dam made of? Mr. Dickens. It was made of brush and some rock. The Chairman. What kept the brush from going away with the water ? Were there posts driven in or rocks put there, or what would hold the brush ? Mr. Dickens. Some cotton trees — what you call cotton trees. The Chairman. Cottonwood? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; cotton trees. Mr. MoNDELL. What else? Mr. Dickens. What you call mesquite trees. Mr. MoNDELL. And you put stone in ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; we put them in the water, and then mesquite brush, and after that cotton trees. Mr. MoNDELL. Who built the dam and the ditch ? Mr. Dickens. My brother, George Dickens. Mr. MoNDELL. You and your brother? Mr. Dickens. My brother. He is the water boss down below. Mr. MoNDELL. Yes ; but who first built the ditch that waters your land? Who first dug it? Mr. Dickens. George. Mr. MoNDELL. Was there no ditch there when the settlers were there? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; there was a ditch there when the settlers settled there. Mr. MoNDELL. Did not the settlers put in the dam ? Mr. Dickens. The dam and the ditch ; and we used that. Mr. MoNDELL. You use the ditch that the settlers built, then ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; but Frank, he uses the Government ditch, the old Government ditch that the military used. He uses the Govern- ment ditch and I use another ditch — what we call the Mazoon ditch. Mr. MoNDELL. Why is it called the Mazoon ditch? Mr. Dickens. Mazoon was a settler, a Mexican. Mr. MoNDELL. He was a Mexican ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. How long ago did he build that ditch? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. I can not answer that, Mr. Mondell. Mr. Mo^'DELL. In the seven years that you have been on your land, how many times has the dam gone out? Mr. Dickens. I could not answer. Mr. Mondell. Does the dam go out every spring, so that you have to build it again? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. Mondell. Does it all go out, or only a part ? Mr. Dickens. Part ; some. Mr. Mondell. How many days' work does it take to fix it so that it will turn the water into your ditch, each spring? Mr. Dickens. T^Y0 or three days ; that is all. Mr. Mondell. How many men ? Mr. Dickens. Eleven men. We run 11, you know, , on this ditch, the Mazoon ditch. Mr. Mondell. What? Mr. Dickens. There are 11 men living on this ditch. i^Ajrjii>r.ij.uivjLO 1.1.1 j-jcij:. xj.ixjij.iiOE DEPARTMENT. 419 Mr. MoNDELL. Yes. Mr. Dickens. Eleven of us, and we take two or three days. Mr. MoNDELL. Will two or three days every spring fix the dam so that it will turn the water into the ditch ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Has there ever been a time since you have been there that the dam all went out and went away ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. So that you had to build a new one ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; we built a new one. Mr. MoNDEiJj. You mean everything go^ — all the brush, all the rock, all the cottonwoods — -altogether? Mr. Dickens. Some left, you know. Mr. MoNDELL. How much? Mr. Dickens. Just two or three sticks left ; and then we put some more sticks and build another dam. The Chairman. If you had to build a new dam to turn the water into your ditch, how many days would it take to do it? Mr. Dickens. Two or three days. The Chairman. Will two or three days' work of 11 men build a new dam that will turn the water into your ditch ? Mr. Dickens; Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Will it build a dam that will turn the water into your ditch when the water is low and it is dry? Do you ever have to go and build the dam up in the summer when the water goes low, so as to throw the water in the ditch ? Mr. Dickens. Never dry. The water is never dry. Mr. MoNDELL. The water goes down some? Mr. Dickens. When the river is high, then it comes down, and down, and down [indicating]. Mr. MoNDELL. When the water gets down, do you have to build the dam up to turn the water into the ditch ? Mr. Dickens. Turn the water into the ditch. Mr. MoNDELL. In the summer — do some work on the dam in tlie summer ? Mr. Dickens. No; not much work on the dam in the summer. Mr. Mondell. Not much? Mr. Dickens. No. Mr. MoNDELL. The two or three days' work in the spring is about all the work you have to do on the dam ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDBLL. How about the ditch? Does it all fill up in the spring before you begin to irrigate it, so that vou have to die it all out? Mr. Dickens. Before we build the dam? Mr. Mondell. No; well, any time? Mr. Dickens. Well, yes; dig out. Mr. Mondell. How much work would the 11 men have to do on the ditch every year to clean it out? Mr. Dickens. A week and a half; one week and a half. Mr. Mondell. How long- is your ditch ? Mr. Dickens. Not very long ; about a mile, I think. Mr. Mondell. You say there are 11 men who get water from the ditch. Is the ditch only a mile long? 420 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Dickens. That is all. Mr. MoNDELL. How can 11 men get water from a ditch only a mile long ? Mr. Dickens. Here is the river, right here, and here is the dam, right there [making drawing], and here is the ditch, and the water comes down there ahout 1 mile, and there is a fence around here, and here is a fence, and my brother lives here, and the next man here, and the next man here, and the next man here [indicating] . Mr. MoNDELL,. It is 1 mile from your land down to the dam ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. How high is the bank of the Verde River? Mr. Dickens. Not very high ; sometimes it is that high [indicat- ing]- Mr. Mondell. Four or five feet high? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELX,. And your land is only a mile from the headgate of the ditch? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. Mondell. And the other 10 men are right close to you ? Mr. Dickens. I live here [indicating on drawing]. The Chairman. And they are just luice that — one, two, three — right along? Mr. Dickens. My brother is the eighth man, and I live down here [indicating]. The Chairman. How far is it from that fence down to where you live? Mr. Dickens, A quarter of a mile. The Chairman. Then how many days' work do you have to do every year to clean that ditch out? Mr. Dickens. One week and a half. Mr. Mondell. One week and a half; 11 men? Mr. Dickens. Eleven men; yes. Mr. Mondell. Are you willing to do the work every spring that you have to do to build the dam and keep the ditch open ? Mr. Dickens. Sure; yes. Mr. Mondell. Are you willing to do the work, every year, you and your neighbors, that you should do, to fix the dam and clean out the ditch? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Are you sure that without any help you could keep the dam fixed and the ditch fixed so that you could get water, plenty of water ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; we might need it sometime. We do not need it now. Mr. Mondell. What is that? Mr. Dickens. We might need somebody, sometime. We do not need anybody now. Dr. Montezuma. That is, help ? Mr. Dickens. Help, I mean. Mr. Mondell. When you need help more than your own help? Mr. Dickens. If we do not get the water, you know, so that we would need it. Mr. Mondell. But you would always get the water if the dam was in and the ditch was cleaned out, would you not? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPARTMENT. 421 Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. Can you and your friends who get water from that ditch do all the work to keep the dam and the ditch all right ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. You are sure ? Mr. Dickens. Sure. The Chairman. Charley, do you know the Salt Kiver ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I have been there lots of times. The Chairman. How long have you known it near the McDowell Eeservation ? Mr. Dickens. About 1 mile. The Chairman. I know, but for how long a time; for how many years have you known it? Mr. Dickens. Seven years. The Chairman. Do you know where the Verde and the Salt come together ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Do you know where the Eoosevelt Dam is ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Have you ever been to it ? Mr. Dickens I have been there once. The Chairman. Do you know the Salt River from the point where the Verde and the Salt come together, back toward the Roosevelt Dam? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. East of where the Verde comes into it? Mr. Dickens. North. The Chairman. Have you ever seen it dry? Mr. Dickens. The Salt River? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Dickens. Yes ; it used to be dry, but now there is lots of water on account of their building the dam up there — the Roosevelt Dam. The Chairman. Does it ever go dry now? Mr. Dickens. No; I do not know. The Chairman. Since the dam was put there have you ever seen it dry at any time? Mr. Dickens. No ; I see lots of water now. The Chairman. Before the dam was built would it go dry every year, or just some years? Mr. Dickens. Some years ; one or two years, before they built the dam. The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Dickens. Now there is lots of water. The Chairman. That is water that is collected by the dam and then let loose as it is needed down belov/ ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Did you ever drink the water out of the Salt River? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How does it taste? Mr. Dickens. It is pretty salty. The Chairman. What makes it so salty ; do you know ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know, sir. I can not say. 422 EXPENDITUKES IN T±lJi IJNTEBIOB DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. How is it with reference to quenching thirst? Very salty water makes one more thirsty? Mr. Dickens. Sure. The Chaieman. How is it? Mr. Dickens. I have drank at Salt River, and in 10 or 15 minutes I wanted another drink. The Chairman. How is the water in the Verde River ? Mr. Dickens. The Verde is all right ; good water — good and sweet water. The Chairman. Is it salty at all ? Mr. Dickens. No ; it is good and sweet water. The Chairman. Before the dam was built which river had the most water running in it in the dry season of the year ? Mr. Dickens. The Verde. The Chairman. Did the Verde River keep water in the Salt River all the time after it ran into the Salt ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. So that it would be dry east of the Verde River and have water west of that point in a dry season ? Mr. Dickens. The Verde River or the Salt ? The Chairman. Xo; the Salt River. What I mean is, was there enough water coming down the Verde to keep water running in the Salt River, even in a very dry time? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; lots of water all the time running like this [making fluttering motion with hand]. The Chairman. What we call a ripple or a riffle in the water? Mr. Dickens. A riffle ; yes ; lots of water. The Chairman. Have you done any v\-ork for the Government on those ditches? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. What wages did you get for your work? Mr. Dickens. I got a dollar a day. The Chairman. For yourself, or for yourself and team? Mr. Dickens. For myself and team. The Chairman. Did you ever work without a team ? Mr. Dickens. Sometimes. The Chairman. What did you get then ? Mr. Dickens. For the Government. The CHAiRjrAN. When you worked for the Government without a team what did you get? Mr. Dickens. Fifty cents. The Chairman. What work did you do? Mr. Dickens. Scraper. There was a team working there, and I would work with a shovel. The Chairman. The Government hours are eight hours a day, I believe. Mr. Dickens. Yes; I think eight hours. We stopped work at 4. The Chairman. From 7 until 12 and from 1 until 4? Mr. Dickens. One to 4. The Chatraian. Are the wages you got the same that every man that worked got? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The CiiAiRjiAN. Did they have any white men working on those jobs? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTBEIOE DEPARTMENT. 423 Mr. Dickens. The Government job? The Chairman. Yes; the same job you were on — for the Govern- ment? Mr. Dickens. No whites working. Mr. MoNDEUL. You were working on the ditch and dam, were you, when you were doing this work you speak of ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. MoNDELL. Was there any Government work to do except the dam and the ditches and the canal ? Mr. Dickens. That is all, except the ditches. The Chairman. Did you ever do any work on the railroad there? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. What work did you do ? Mr. Dickens. On the railroad. The Chairman. Working, keeping up the tracks, or making a new track, or what ? Mr. Dickens. Making a new track. The Chairman. For whom did you work ? Mr. Dickens. For the company. The Chairman. You had leave from the agent to do that? Mr. Dickens. How is that? The Chairman. I have been warned that the word " leave " means the right to go away from the reservation, but I still keep using it, because it is a shortfer word than " permission." Did you have per- mission from the agent to do that ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. In writing? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I had a pass. The Chairman. Did you have to have it before j^ou left the reser- vation ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How much did vou get there ? Mr. Dickens. $3.75, for 10 hours. The Chairman. Were you a foreman? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I had a big gang. The Chairman. How many ? Mr. Dickens. Three hundred Indians. The Chairman. How much did they get ? Mr. Dickens. $1.25 for shovel work, and the drill men got $2.50. The Chairman. Was it necessary for you to have a pass from the superintendent before the railroad company would hire you? Did they care anything about whether you had a pass or not ? Mr. Dickens. The company? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Dickens. Oh, yes. Tlie Chairman. Did you show them the pass? Mr. Dickens. Yes; I showed them the pass, and how many In- dians I was bringing from the reservation, and I brought the men with ine. The Chairman. Did the agent speak to you at all about coming to work for the railroad, or did you speak to him? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I didn't speak to him. He wrote to me, and he wanted me to bring the men to work on the railroad. The Chairman. Who wrote to you? 424 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Dickens. The Copper Co. The Chairman. I know, but who consulted the ageht, Mr. Coe, as to whether you might go? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe? The Chairman. The agent at the reservation? Mr. Dickens. He let me go ; I say he gave me a pass. The Chairman. Did the railroad write to Mr. Coe ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; they wrote to me, because they know me, the company knows me, when I was at San Carlos. I went over to Eay, Ariz., and he knew me very well ; and I got a good friend there named Mr. Cate. The Chairman. How did you get started working in the mine? Mr. Dickens. I did not work in the mine when I worked on the railroad. The Chairman. You did work at the mines? Mr. Dickens. I used to work at the mines. The Chairman. Did anybody ask you to work there ? Mr. Dickens. The superintendent who was in the mines. The Chairman. Who was that? Mr. Dickens. The superintendent. The Chairman. What was his name? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Cate. He was the superintendent of the mine at Ray, Ariz. The Chairman. I know; but how did you happen to go to the mines for Avork? Did you know a man named Dagenett — Charles E. Dagenett ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Dr. Montezuma. Do you know Charley Dagenett? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I never heard the name. The Chairman. When you worked in the mine, what wages did you get? Mr. Dickens. The same wages. The Chairman. As on the railroad ? Mr. Dickens. I asked for more wages, but they said that they would give me the same wages. The Chairman. $3.25 a day? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many hours ? Mr. Dickens. Eight hours. The Chairman. And foreman of the mine also? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you a practical coal miner? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I am a track boss in the mine. Mr. MoNDELL. Coal mine? Mr. Dickens. Copper mine. The Chairman. Your duty was to care for the tracks that went down in the bottom of the mine, that the little bit of cars run on ? Mr. Dickens. A motor. The Chairman. How many men were under you? Mr. Dickens. Ten men. The Chairman. How many cars did that motor pull at a trip? Mr. Dickens. Ten cars; sometimes seven. The Chairman. How much would a car hold ? Do you know what a ton is — weight? EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 425 Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I do not know. The Chairman. Anyhow, the motor would pull a trip ot about 8 to 10 cars? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then the track had to be a very good track? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was there anybody but you in charge of that work ? Mr. DicKJENS. No, sir. I had a Mexican gang ; no Indians. I had the Indians, but they were working in the mine — three Indian boys ; my gang were at McDowell, running the motor. The Chairman. How did you learn the work of keeping a railroad track in shape? Mr. Dickens. By the railroad men; they teach me. The Chairman. How long a time were you engaged as foreman of the track gang in the mine? Mr. Dickens. I have been there a short time — one month — that is, in the mine ; but outside the mine I work one year. The Chairman. During that time did you have complete charge of that portion of the track that your gang was working on ? Mr. Dickens. In the mine? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you feel that you were capable of keeping the track up and in proper shape all the time ? Mr. Dickens. All the time; yes, sir. The Chairman. How many switches were there in the part you had charge of? Mr. Dickens. Two or three switches. The Chairman. Did you keep them in order, too ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was it a difficult matter to keep the switches right so that the motor and cars would not go off the track ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who attended to that? Mr. Dickens. I. The Chairman. Was there any employee or anybody but you ? Mr. Dickens. Except me, that is all, but a whole lot of foremen, but the foremen were in the tunnels, the ore tunnels. The Chairman. In other parts of the mine ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Doing other lines of business? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. This is the track lines that I am foreman of in the mine. The Chairman. Do you remember Mr. Gill who used to be the head farmer at the reservation? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When did he leave the reservation ? Mr. Latimer. About how many years ago? Mr. Dickens. About five or six years ago. The Chairman. How long was he there while you were there ? Mr. Dickens. I just met him. About seven years, I left San Carlos and went to McDowell. 426 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. How did things go under Mr. Gill on the reser- vation ? Mr. Dickens. He is all right, sir. The Chairman. Tell me some of the things that he did as agent or superintendent there. Mr. Dickens. Mr. Gill? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. Well, he is all right, Mr. Chairman. He always came and helped the Indians on the ditch — on the dam. They were working in the water, and he stands up there in the water helping to put in the dam. The Chairman. He worked like the rest of you? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; all the time. The Chairman. With reference to your farming work, did he give you anj- advice or help ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Showing you how to do it? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What did he do? Mr. Dickens. He planted some corn, sorghum, potatoes, cabbage, and lettuce. The Chairman. Did he try to introduce any new industries among you ? For instance, was it during his administration there that you attempted to raise bees and gather honey ? .Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What did he do toward bringing that about — ^Mr. Gill — did he help you in any way or show the Indians how they might keep bee- ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did j'ou try it ? Mr. Dickens. I did not try it. The Chairman. Do you know anybody who did? Mr. Dickens. My brother, Richard Dickens. The Chairman. What help, if any, did Mr. Gill give him? Mr. Dickens. He gave me? The Chairman. How did he help your brother with reference to the bees ? Mr. Dickens. He gave him some bees and honey. The Chairman. The bees which you keep in little hives they make honey, and then you get the honey ? ]\Ir. Dickens. I did not get them, but the rest of the Indians got some of them. The Chairman. Did Mr. Gill do anything toward teaching the Indians how to keep the bees? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did he do anything toward teaching chicken rais- ing or turkey raising ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. He gave some of the Indians turkeys and chickens and gave some of them cattle to raise. Mr. MoNDELL. Do some of the Indians still have bees? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Two Indians have some bees. Mr. Mondell. A good many ? Mr. Dickens. Lots of them. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. 427 Mr. MoNDELL. How many ? Mr. Dickens. Fifteen boxes. The Chairman. Are any of them selling honey ? Mr. Dickens. Some at Phoenix. The Chairman. Any of them raising chickens extensively and selling them ? Mr. Dickens. They sell them. The Chairman. And turkeys? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who began teaching them and showing them how to make money that way ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Gill. The Chairman. Since he left the reservation is the work he began kept up; does the present superintendent help in the same way he did? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Nobody helps us now since Mr. Gill is gone. The Chairman. Mr. Hensley suggests this question: How did Mr. Gill happen to quit and leave the reservation ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know anything about that. The Chairman. Did Mr. Coe succeed him? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Who was there after Mr. Gill? Mr. Dickens. I think Mr. Bear. The Chaiejian. What interest does the present agent take in your affairs ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe? The Chair jfan. Yes, sir ; the agent ; what help does he give you in the way of teaching you how to keep bees and get honey and how to raise chickens and how to make butter and sell it, or anvthing of that sort? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe did not help us. We asked him to help us, but he did not do it. He just sit there in the house and did not do anything but just read the paper. We say to Mr. Coe, " We want you to come down and show us about our work." He did not say anything except, " I got a lot of work to do here, too." The Chairman. Has he ever aided you when the dam was car- ried away? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. In replacing it ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of any help or aid that he has given the McDowell people since he has been there ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. He did not help any. The Chairsian. Have you ever complained to Washington or to anyone about him ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I mean not you personally, but the Indians there. Do you know of any complaint being made against him ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. To whom ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe. The Chairman. To whom did they complain, to Mr. Coe himself? Mr. Dickens. To Mr. Coe himself. 98240— No. 10—11 4 428 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Do you know of any complaint made to the com- missioner or to anybody above Mr. Coe? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. I do not know that, Mr. Chairman. Mr. MoNDELL. Did you write any letter or say to anybody that Mr. Coe was not helping you? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I did write to my cousin, Carlos Montezuma. Mr. Mondell. When was that? Mr. Dickens. Last year. I told him Mr. Coe tried to move us to the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Latimer. Is Mr. Coe living on the McDowell Reservation at present ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; not now. Mr. Latimer. Where is he living, on the Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. When did he move down there ? Mr. Dickens. About two months ago. Mr. Latimer. There is not any superintendent living at McDowell at all? Mr. Dickens. A farm teacher. Mr. MoKDELE. The farmer there. Did he help you? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Mondell. What does he do? Mr. Dickens. Just sit in the house; that is all. Mr. Mondell. The fanner? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The same way like Mr. Coe. Mr. Mondell. Does he not go out in the field ? Mr. Dickeks. He did not go out in the field. Mr. IMondell. Does not he show you how to farm? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Mondell. And did not help you on the ditch? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. What did Mr. Coe tell you about whether you would have water for farming next year? Mr. Dickens. He did not tell me anything, Mr. Latimer. Mr. Latimer. Has the farmer said anything to you? Mr. Dickens. The farmer did not know anything about it. Mr. George. Charley, did anyone say that you were to be moved? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe is the one. Mr. George. He told you ? Mr. Dickens. He told me : " Charley, I want you to move to the Salt River Reservation." I say, " No ; I do not want to go there. I got land here, too." I told him : " Why do you want me to go there? There is no feed for the stock down there." I told him I had plenty of feed for my horses and stock. I told him : " I got water ; sweet water to drink." I told him : " I better stay in my own home." Mr. George. What did he say ? Mr. Dickens. No. Mr. George. What did he say when you told him that ? Mr. Dickens. He says, " The Government let you move all right." I told him : " I do not believe." Mr. George. Did he tell you that the Government was going to make you move? EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPARTMENT. 429 Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. When did he say tliat ? Mr. Dickens. Two months ago. Mr. George. Did he say that before ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Did he say that since? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. He say all the time, " One year." Mr. George. For one year the Government could not make you move ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And you lose your McDowell land? Mr. Dickens. If we move we lose. If we do not move we do not lose. Mr. George. If you stay there you do not lose ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. George. If you move to Salt Eiver you lose your McDowell farm? Mr. Dickens. I gue?s so. Mr. George. Did he say anything to make you think that ? Mr. Dickens. He make me move all the time, but I say " No ; I do not." He told me finallj': " You take 5 acres down Salt Eiver and then you take this land." I told him " Why you want me to take two places ? " He did not answer me. I asked him twice : " Mr. Coe, why do you want me to take other land down in Salt Eiver? " He says : " It is better for you down there, plenty of water and good land." I says: " I got good land here, too, at McDoAvell." I told him: " I have good water here; sweet to drink." Mr. George. Did he want you to live down there, take your familj' there and have your horses there? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; he says : "All the McDowell Indians move, build an agency there, build a schoolhouse there, and going to build a church house there." Mr. George. Did he ask you to go there and build a house for yourself ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; he did not say anything about that. Mr. George. "Where were you to have your family ? Mr. Dickems. No ; he did not say anything. Mr. Georce. ¥,niere was vcur familv to be if you went down to the Salt Eiver? Mr. Dickens. No ; he did not say. Mr. George. Did you understand him that you were to leave your family at McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. I did not understand him. Mr. George. You did not understand? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. George. Charley, would you like to pay taxes and be a citizen ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I want to be a citizen like white man. Mr. George. Did you ever tell Mr. Coe that you wanted to be a citizen ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. What did Mr. Coe say? Mr. Dickens. He did not say anything. Mr. George. Did Mr. Coe say when the Government would move you ? 430 EXPENDITtTEBS IN THE INTESIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Dickens. He says "Any time. If you want to move to-day, you move to-day. If you want to move to-morrow, move down there." I say, No, sir; I do not want to move. I want to stay liere at McDowell." He says, "If you want to move to-day, you can move to-day, and if they want to go to-morrow or next day they can go." Mr. MoNDELL. What did he want you to do with the crops you Bad in? Mr. Dickens. I do not know what we were to do if we moved. Mr. MoNDELL. How long ago did you settle on the land where you are ? Mr. Dickens. Six or seven years ago. Mr. MoNDELL. When you went there did you understand that the 10 acres that you had to cultivate were yours? Mr. Dickens. At McDowell? Mr. George. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Did you understand it was to be your land always? Mr. Dickens. Always. Mr. Mondell. That that was an allotment? Mr Dickens. I think so. Mr. MoNDEiiL. When you went on that land you expected to stay there. Mr. Dickens. Sure. Mr. Mondell. That was your piece of land? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; but afterwards Mr. Coe told me "The Government wants you to move." Mr. Mondell. But he did not say that you would have to give up the land you had at McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. No ; he did not say that. Mr. Mondell. Give you the land on Salt River and McDowell, both? Mr. Dickens. Both. Mr. Mondell. Did he expect you to live in both places? Mr. Dickens. I guess so ; that is what Mr. Coe says. Mr. Hensley. Did Mr. Coe endeavor to get others to go down to fhe Salt River? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; always asking all of us. Mr. Hensley. Did he ask any other Indian in your presence togo? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Do you recall any one that he requested to move from the McDowell Reservation down to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; some of them. Mr. Hensley. Who were they? Mr. Dickens. Gilbert David and his wife and some other Yuma- Apaches. Mr. Hensley. You heard him talking to them? Mr. Dickens. I never heard him ; I had been away at that time. Mr. Hensley. Did you ever hear him? Mr. Dickens. My brother Frank told me Gilbert David was going to move to Salt River. Mr. Hensley. Where were you when Mr. Coe talked to you about making this move ? Mr. Dickens. This year ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 431 Mr. Hensley. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. Down at McDowell. Mr. Hensley. At your home? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Was your brother there? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; he is there all the time. Mr. Hensley. Did he hear Mr. Coe talking to you about moving from McDowell down to the Salt River country ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; all of them ; all the Indians. The Chairman. I want to ask you a few more questions. Did you know anything about an attempt to establish a post office in Mc- Dowell? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Did you ever hear of it ? Mr. Dickens. About the post office? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; Mr. Coe told me he was going to have a post office at McDowell. The Chairman, '^■^^lat did he tell you ? Mr. Dickens. He says they wanted us to sign a paper. The Chairman. Do you know what was on the paper? Mr. Dickens. No; I did not see the paper. The Chairman. "W^iat did he sa_y it was for? Mr. Dickens. He says, " This is for the post office for you Indians." The Chairman. Where was it to be ? Mr. Dickens. At the agency. The Chairman. Did the Indians at the agency want a post office? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Did they ask for one? Mr. Dickens. No, sir: we did not ask for one. Mr. Coe, he wanted a post office. The Chairman. "V\Tiere had they been getting their mail; where had they been getting their mail up to that timef Mr. Dickens. Down at Scottsdale, Ariz. Some one go down there, down town in Phoenix, Scottsdale, they bring the mail up. The Chairman. Did Mr. Coe say why he wanted a post office at the agency ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; he did not say anything about it, but just wanted a post office ; that is all. The Chairman. Did you sign or agree to sign a paper to that effect? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I did not sign. The Chairman. Do you know of anyone who did? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. The Chairman. Why did you not want to leave McDowell and go down to the Salt River? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I do not want to go. The Chairman. Why? Mr. Dickens. Because I have land down there at McDowell. "What I want to go down there for? I got good land at McDowell. The Chairman. ¥/as there at any time dissatisfaction among the McDowell Indians with their reservation? Did any of them want to move away from it to some other place? 432 EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Dickens. No, sir; none of them, except some tribes wanted to move to Salt River. The Chairman. Who were they? Mr. Dickens. Yuma-Apaches. The Chairman. I mean of the McDowell Indians? Mr. Dickens. Gilbert David. The Chairman. Did he want to go or simply because the agent wanted him to go? Mr. Dickens. He wanted to go. Mr. Latimer. They are Mohave-Apaches, but there a few Yuma- Apaches at McDowell still. The Chairman. Is Gilbert David a Yuma-Apache? Mr. Dickens. A Mohave, our tribe; he want to go to Salt River. Mr. Latimer. Is Gilbert David a Mohave? Mr. Dickens. A full Mohave-Apache. His wife is a Yuma- Apache. The Chairman. And his wife was the one who wanted to go? Mr. Dickens. He want to get all the Indians down there. The Chairman. Who does? Mr. Dickens. Gilbert David. The CiiAiR?iAN. He wants you all to go down there? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. We say, " No; we do not w^nt to go."' Mr. Georie. Why does he want to go? Mr. Dickens. Salt River. Mr. George. Why? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. Mr. George. Do his wife's people want to go? Mr. Dickens. I guess so. His wife and mother. Thej' want all the Indians at McDowell to move to Salt River. Mr. Georoe. How do vou get nlong with the Pima Indians now or for 10 or 15 years past; are you friendly or unfriendly? Mr. DiCKExs. Oh, friendty. Mr. George. Do you meet them sometimes? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Is there any visiting back and forth between you? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Formerly they were enemies, were they, of the Apaches ? Dr. Montezujia. Fight? Mr. Dickens. They used to be fight some time ago — about 40 years ago. The CiFAiRjiAN. If you went to the Salt River you would be near the Pimas, and would that have anything to do to keep you from going? You would be their neighbors if you went down there. Do you want to be their neighbors? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Because of the old trouble between your tribe and theirs ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I am afraid. The Chairman. Is the land at McDowell as rich and as good as the land at Salt River? Mr. Dickens. It is good land at McDowell. The Chairjian. Are they alike, and if one is better than the other, which is better ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 433 Mr. Dickens. At McDowell. The Chairman. With the same amount of water you think the McDowell is better land, do you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; good land, good water. The Chairman. Have you been down on the Salt Kiver Reserva- tion since the water was put on it, within the last two years ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I never see the ditch. Dr. Montezuma. Were you not down at the crossing, did you not visit some ? Mr. Dickens. At Salt River Reservation? Mr. Montezuma. Yes, sir ; right there at the dam ? Mr. DicKiNS. I came by the dam. The Chairman. Have you seen the crops growing there? Mr. Dickens. The Pima crop ? The Chairman. I was not speaking of the Pima country, I was speaking of the Salt River Reservation, where they proposed to put you. Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. I wanted to know if you knew that ground well? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. Charley, do you remember Mr. Coe coming to you about last February, I think it was, and asking for a letter that you had received from your cousin, Dr. Montezuma? Mr. DiCKiNS. Yes, sir. Mr. LATiaiER. Where did you get that letter from Dr. Montezuma, in the mail ? Mr. DiCKiNS. Yes, sir ; by mail. Mr. Latimer. Tell us what Mr. Coe said to you ? Mr. DiCKiNS. He says, "Get a letter from Montezuma?" I says, "Yes," He says, "Will you let me read it? " I says, "No; I will not let you read it." I told him, "I did not ask you when you got a letter to let me read it and I will not let you have it." He says, "Give it to me, I want to read it. Hurry up.'' So I gave it to him. Mr. George. You did? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. I am afraid if I did not give him the letter he might arrest me. Mr. George. How did he know you had a letter? Mr. Dickens. I do not know ; maybe he seen the letter. Mr. Latimer. He handles the niail? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. He gave it to you before, and Dr. Montezuma's stamp was on the outside of the envelope ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Was the doctor's name on the outside of the envelope ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; on the envelope. Mr. George. Did Mr. Coe ever do that before ? Mr. Dickens. No. Mr. George. Did he ever demand any of your letters ? Mr. Dickens. No ; this was the first time. Mr. George. Did he ever do that with any other Indians that you know of? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; this is the first time. Mr. George. Did he say anything about this letter when he read it ? Mr. Dickens. Nos, sir ; he did not say anything. 434 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. George. Has he said anything since about that letter? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; that is the first time. The Chairman. Did he give it back to you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; to me. The Chairman. How Jong was it after you got the letter? Mr. Dickens. I do not remember ; I can not answer. The Chairman. Was it days or weeks after you got the letter that he told you to give it up ? Mr. Dickens. Days. Mr. Latimer. Was it about the time you got the letter that (^oe came down and asked for it? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. The next day ? Mr. Dickens. I think two or three days after I got the letter. Mr. George. When did you get this letter? How long ago did you get this letter from Dr. Montezuma ? Mr. Dickens. I think about three or four months ago. Mr. George. Did the Doctor talk about coming here to Washing- ton? Mr. Dickens. I guess so. Mr. Latimer. Does Supt. Coe handle your mail ? Does he get the mail and distribute it? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Latimer. Where did you get the mail ? Mr. Dickens. Up at Mr. Coe's office. I went over there and got this letter. Mr. Latimer. He sees the mail before you get it ? Mr. Dickens. I think so; yes, sir. He did not open it, but he sees the name. Mr. Latimer. On the envelope ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And when you write a letter you take it to Mr. Coe's office? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I mail it at the post office at Scottsdale, and also in Mesa. Mr. Latimer. All the mail for the reservation, for the Indians and all, is delivered at Coe's headquarters? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir ; at the headquarters. Mr. George. If you did not give up that letter, what would Mr. Coe have done? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. Mr. George. Were you afraid? Mr. Dickens. He might arrest me. Mr. George. "Where would he have put you if he had arrested you? Mr. Dickens. Down at the Indian school at Phoenix. The Chairman. Is there a guardhouse or lockup there? Mr. Dickens. A school there. The Chairman. A place to confine people? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. Latimer. A jail. When they arrest a McDowell Indian where do they put him? Mr. Dickens. Down at the Phoenix Indian School. Mr. George. Do many Indians get arrested? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKICR DEPARTMENT. 435 Mr. Dickens. No; not many; very few. Mr. George. They do what Mr. Coe says ; they do what Mr. Coe tells them to do? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. So as not to be arrested ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Charley, did you know that you had a legal right to keep your letter then if you wanted to ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You knew that you did not have to give it up? Mr. Dickens. He asked me and I was afraid. The Chairman. If I asked you and threatened you if you did not give me a letter, would you give it to me? Mr. Dickens. No, sir ; I would not give it to you. Mr. Latimer. The chairman is not the agent ? Mr. Dickens. You are not the agent. Mr. George. Because Mr. Coe is the agent you are afraid. Mr. Dickens. He is my agent. If you were my agent and you asked me for a letter two or three times, I would give it to you. Mr. George. Do all the Indians feel that way? Mr. Dickens. I guess so. Mr. George. They are afraid to refuse Mr. Coe? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Afraid of being arrested? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. (Thereupon the committee adjourned to meet to-morrow, Saturday, June 17, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) No. 11 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPKESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 17, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE mi EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jn., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. MoCakbon, Clerk. n EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditures IN THE InTEEIOK DEPARTMENT, House of Representatives, Saturday, June 17, 1911. The committee met at 10.30 a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chair- man) presiding. There were present also the following members of the committee: Messrs. George, Hensley, and Catlin. There were also present E. B. Merritt, Esq., Mrs. Helen Pierce Grey, Chief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, Charles Dickens, Thomas Surrama, and Joseph W. Latimer, attorney at law, Chicago, 111. TESTIMONY OF THOMAS SURRAMA. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman and testified through an interpreter, Charles Dickens, as follows :) The Chairman. Your name is Thomas Surrama ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You live at McDowell ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How old are you ? Mr. Surrama. About forty. I am not sure, but about forty. The Chairman. Have you a wife and family ? Mr. Surrama. I have a wife, but no children. The Chairman. Are you a farmer ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much land have you ? Mr. Surrama. Ten acres. The Chairman. Have you a crop in it this year ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What is your crop ? Mr. Surrama. Wheat. The Chairman. Have you cut your wheat yet? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; not yet. The Chairman. Do you work the ground yourself ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you have any help working on your 10 acres? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. The Chairman. What tools have you to farm with ? Mr. Surrama. Shovels. The Chairman. Have you any plows ? Mr. Surrama. Yes: I have got a plow. . 437 438 EXPENDITURES IJSI i'MJtJ IN JTEKIUBr^crajrAaj. 111.1^ ±1 j.. The Chairman. Is it a one-horse or two-horse plow? Mr. SuRRAMA. Two-horse. The Chairman. How many work-horses have you ? Mr. Stjrrama. Five. The Chairman. How many horses of any kind have you ? Mr. Stjrrama. Five; that is all. The Chairman.' Have you any cows or stock of any kind except the horses ? Mr. Stjrrama. I have got some horses ; that is all, except chickens and turkeys. The Chairman. Do you know how many turkeys you have ? Mr. Stjrrama. Thirty-two turkeys. The Chairman. What do you do with those turkeys ? Mr. Surrama. We keep them there and feed them until they get fat. The Chairman. Then what do you do with them? Mr. Surrama. Then we sell them ? The Chairman. How much will they bring ? Mr. Surrama. Twenty cents a pound. The Chairman. How many chickens have you ? Mr. Surrama. Forty-four. The Chairman Why have you not more chickens ? Mr. Surrama. We had a lot of them, but we sold them; sold 76 chickens and have 44 left. The Chairman. What did they bring ? How much did you get for them? Mr. Surrama. I do not remember how much we got. The Chairman. Where did you sell them ? Mr. Surrama. Scottsdale and Phoenix. The Chairman. Do you sell eggs ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. Catlin. Why not ? Mr. SuRRAJiA. We use the eggs for raising chickens and eat some of them, too. The Chairman. How long have you lived in the McDowell Reser- vation ? Mr. Surrama. Seven years. The Chairman. How long have you lived in that general neighbor- hood? Mr. Surrama. I do not remember how long. The Chairman. Do you remember living anywhere else except in that McDowell country ? Mr. Surrama. At San Carlos. The Chairman. How old were you when you left San Carlos, if you know ? Mr. Surrama. About 4 years old. The Chairman. Do you know the Salt River well ? Mr. Surrama. Now or before ? The Chairman. I will ask you if you know it now ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. Do you loiow where the Roosevelt Dam is on the Salt River? Mr. Suerama. No; I do not know. The Chairman. You were never there ? Mr. Surrama. I did not go off the reservation. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 439 The Chairman. Do you remember when the Roosevelt Dam was built? Mr. SuRRAMA. I don't know what year, and I don't laiow what month it was built. The Chairman. But you remember the fact ? Mr. StiRRAMA. I know that, but I do not know the date. The Chairman. Do you ever remember seeing the Salt River dry ? Mr. Surrama. Much water there all the time. The Chairman. In the Salt River ? Mr. Surrama. In the Salt River. The Chairman. Now, east of where the Verde comes into it, did you ever see the Salt River dry ? Mr. Surrama. There is always plenty of water. The Chairman. Are you the man who has directed the making of ditches there in the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; the chief appointed me the water boss of the ditches. The Chairman. How long have you been the water boss ? Mr. Surrama. Six years. The Chairman. Was there a water boss in the tribe before you be- came water boss ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. The Chairman. How many ditches have you had made under you 1 Mr. Surrama. One ditch. The Chairman. Which one ? Mr. Surrama. The old Government ditch. The Chairman. Was that a ditch which you opened, or did you make it for the first time ? Mr. SurrAma. They have been built before, but we made it a little wider, that is all. The Chairman. Which end of the ditch did you begin work on, the end next the river or the end farthest from the river ? Mr. Surrama. Down below. The Chairman. How did you keep the bottom level? Mr. Surrama. I know how to dig down in the bottom the first time, and then I dig up in the same way. The Chairman. Did you have any instruments or tools or levels by which to work? Mr. Surrama. No ; I did not use levels. The Chairman. How many miles long is this ditch ? Mr. Surrama. Four miles ? The Chairman. After you had it opened, did it carry the water well ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. You know where the north end of the McDowell Reservation is, do you not? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. How near the north end of the reservation was it where this ditch reached the river ? Mr. Surrama. I do not know. I do not understand. The Chairman. Do you know how near the north end of the res- ervation that ditch leaves the river? [After a pause.] If you can not understand, all right, we'll pass on. How many acres did that ditch irrigate with water ? 440 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOB DBPAETMBNT. Mr. SuKRAMA. Ten acres. The Chairman. In the whole 4 miles of its length ? Mr. SuREAMA. One man irrigated 10 acres. The Chairman. Ten acres for each man, but how many farms were irrigated ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Three men irrigated one day, 30 acres a day. The Chairman. How many different people get water from that ditch ? Mr. Surrama. Three men irrigated every day so much. The Chairman. Did you ever have any conversation with Supt. Coe about opening that ditch ? Mr. Surrama. I don't know- The Chairman. Did you have any talk or conversation with Mr. Code about that ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. He was one engineer, and I worked with him, surveying on the ditch, and he said that the ditch is 4 feet high and the water is 4 feet low. The Chairman. The engineer said that the ditch was 4 feet higher there than it was at the water ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. Where was its highest ? Mr. Surrama. At the other end of it. The engineer said: "I don't think you can get this water," but I worked at it and the water ran in and I worked even with the water. The Chairjiax. Who was this engineer ? Mr. Surrama. I do not know. The Chairman. Was he from the agency ? Mr. Surrama. I do not know. The Chairman. Did this engineer have any tools or implements with him for sighting and taking levels ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; we would take the tools wih us. The Chairman. Did anyone say to you, Mr. Code or any of those engineers from the agency, how long it would take to make that ditch ? Mr. Surrama. These men say — Mr. Code and the other engineers— "If you work hard, maybe you can get water." The Chairman. They said what ? Mr. Surrama. Mr. Code and the other engineers told me, "If you work hard, maybe you get this water." The CHAIR^^AN. Was that the same man who said it could not be done, because it was higher at the other end than at the river ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; the same man. The Chairman. How long were they working on the ditch under you? Mr. SuRRAXfA. Two weelcs working on the ditch. The CiiAiR^rAN. How many men? Mr. Surrama. Forty-nine. The Chairman. Does that mean that there were 49 farmers along the ditch ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. Each farmer sent one man? Mr. Surrama. Yes; 49 farmers. The Chairman. How many teams were working? iNlr. Surrama. Eleven teams; 11 working. EXPENDITXJKES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. 441 The Chairman. And the rest of the 49 were men without teams ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Without teams; yes, sir. The Chairman. What did they have for the teams to Work with? Did they have plows and scrapers, or what did they have ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Plows and scrapers. The Chairman. What kind of material did you take out of the ditch ? Was it sand or was it sticky dirt, or what was it ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Sand and dirt. The Chairman. How far did you take it from the ditch ? Mr. SuRKAMA. We took it about 15 yards from the ditch. The Chairman. Who was the boss of the men when they were working there ? Mr. SuRRAMA. I was. The Chairman. When you got it open up to the river what did you do to turn the river water into it ? How did you get the river water turned into the ditch ? Mr. SuRBAMA. We built the ditch and a brush dam, like this [indi- cating], and push the posts in the water and then put the brush on top. The Chairman. How do you put the posts in the water ? Mr. SuEEAMA. We drive them down. The Chairman. With what ? Mr. SuRRAMA. We take a big rock and drive them down. The Chairman. How deep down do you drive those posts ? Mr. Surrama. About 3 feet deep. The Chairman. What is the material into which you drive them ? Is it sand or dirt or clay, or what is it ? Mr. Surrama. Sand. The Chairman. How deep is the water at the point where you put the posts? Mr. Surrama. About 4 or 5 feet deep. The Chairman. How high is the bed of the river, and how much water is there where you put the posts down ? Mr. Surrama. About that deep [indicating waisthne]. The Chairman. Where did the men stand when they were pound- ing the posts down with a rock? Did they have wagons to stand in, or did they go out in the river ? Mr. Surrama. We were standing in the water, two men, one man holding the post and one man taking a big rock and driving it down, standing right in the water. The Chairman. Did you never try driving a wagon out there and standing in the wagon, so as to get above your work ? Mr. Surrama. I don't want to take a wagon out in the water. The Chairman. Why not ? Mr. Surrama. It might wash it away. The water is too swift. The Chairman. How swift is the current ? Mr. Surrama. Just like this [indicating], running fast. The Chairman. Might it not wash the men away ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. The Chairman. About how many posts did you drive in that way to make the brush dam ? Mr. Surrama. Thirty-five or forty posts. The Chairman. About how big were they? 442 BXPENDITUBES Ijn xnji ijm ijiijsiuji. i/jijriixvj.ivj.xij.x j., Mr. SuKRAMA. About that large [indicating]. Some of them big ones. The Chairman. Now, Charhe, this question I want to ask you. You have seen sledges in the mines, iron sledges for driving spikes? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why did you not get some of those to drive the posts with ? Why did you not get a sledge instead of a stone to drive the posts with? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. Mr. George. You have none ? Mr. Dickens. I have none. Mr. George. Did your agent, Mr. Coe, have any? Mr. Dickens. He did not have any. I bought two big hammers last month for using on our dam. Mr. George. How big are they? Mr. Dickens. About a 10-pound hammer. Mr. George. That will help a great deal, will it not? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. My brother told me I could get two big 10-pound hammers when I was working in the mines, and I bought two big ones to use for driving down the posts in the water. The Chairman. Now, you might explain that to Tom. Mr. Sureama. I am going to buy some. The Chairman. You are going to buy some ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes. The Chairman. Where will you buy them ? Mr. SuRRAMA. In town. The Chairman. In Phoenix or Scottsdale or where ? Mr. Surrama. If I can find some in Phoenix I can buy some. The Chairman. Did the head farmer ever tell you anything about those things and how to use them in making your dam ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. The Chairman. After you got the posts down, what did you do ? Mr. Surrama. After we put the posts down in the water we cut a whole lot of brush — mesquite brush. The Chairman. How far apart were the posts ? Mr. Surrama. About that far [indicating]. The Chairman. How many feet do you think it was ? Mr. Surrama. About two yards and a half. The Chairman. Now, did 35 posts that far apart extend all the way across the water in the stream ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. What would happen to that brush dam when the high water and flood came ? Mr. Surrama. The brush washed away, except the posts androcks. The Chairman. How big were the rocks that you brought out there to brace the dam and hold it? Mr. Surrama. That big, some of them [indicating]. The Chairman. Too big to lift, were they ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. The Chairman. How did you get them out into the river ? Mr. Surrama. We put them in a wagon and then put them on the dam. The Chairman. Did you notice the stone fences through the coun- try as you came here on the train, stones piled up to make a fence ? EXPEKDITUKES IJM TJtiJi IJNTKKIOR DEPARTMENT. 443 Mr. SuERAMA. Yes; I saw them on the way here. The Chairman. Did you ever try pihng up stone, making a wide hase or foundation, and then pihng stones up there in the river for a dam ? Mr. Surrama. I didn't know that. The Chairman. Do you think such a dam, with brush behind it, would be better than one made with posts and brush ? Mr. Surrama. I do not know how. The Chairman. You do not know how to do what ? Mr. Surrama. To build it. The Chairman. Well, it would not need any building. Just pile them up one on top of the other. If that was done would the current be strong enough to carry them away ? Mr. Surrama. I do not think I could do it that way. The Chairman. Do you think it would work ? Mr. Surrama. No. The Chairman. Why do you think it would not work? Mr. Surrama. I do not know, that is why. I do not know how it is I know how to buUd a brush dam because I use that aU the time. The Chairman. But you will never learn unless you try new ways. Mr. Surrama. If some one showed me I could do it. Mr. George. Did the agent ever show you ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. Did Mr. Code, the engineer, ever show you ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. Did Mr. Coe help build the dam ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. Did he ever send anybody there to help build that dam? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. Did he ever lend you any tools ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. The Indians had to do it all themselves ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is there plenty of stone in that neighborhood ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir; plenty of stone. The Chairman. Now suppose the water comes down here [indi- cating on a drawing] and there is a big bank of stone built in that way, with brush on the side next to the water, would not that make a better dam than posts and brush ? Mr. Surrama. I think it would be all right. The Chairman. Well, do you think that could be done ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr. George. Is there plenty of stone there for that purpose ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr. George. Along the banks ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; on both sides, plenty of it. Mr. George. That would cost more to build, would it not? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr.- George. You would have to work more days ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why did you not try that plan before ? Mr. Surrama. If somebody showed me like this, I can do it. The Chairman. Do you think you will try it when you go back ? 444 BXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. ]\Ir. StJREAMA. When I go back, I will try it. The Chairman. How wide do you think the foundation ought to be ? Mr. Stjrrama. This much wide [indicating]. The Chairman. Well, in feet, how wide do you think it ought to be at the bottom ? Mr. Stjrrama. About 7 feet, and maybe more. The Chairman. Then what would you use on the water side of it; would you use the brush such as you used on the posts ? Mr. Surrama. I am going to try this way first. The Chairman. But the water would run between the stones unless you put some brush there. Mr. Stireama. I will put brush under it. The Chairman. Then what will you put on the brush to keep that from going away? By putting brush on the rocks or stones, and more stones on top of the brush, it would hold it there and make a pretty good dam. Mr. Surrama. I will do it that way when I go back. I will try it. Mr. George. Tom, do you want to be a citizen? Mr. Stjrrama. Yes, sir; that is what I came here for. Mr. George. That is what you came to Washington for? Mr. Surrama. Yes; to ask to be a citizen. Mr. George. To vote and pay taxes? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr. George. Do you want to leave the McDowell Reservation and go to Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; I don't want to go to Salt River Reser- vation. Mr. George. Have you heard about that ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr. George. Who told you about it? Mr. Surrama. Mr. Coe. Mr. George. When did Mr. Coe tell you ? ' Mr. Surrama. Some time ago. I don't know what date and I can't tell you what month. I don't sabe English and I don't write English. Mr. George. Was tliis the agent, Mr. Coe, who said this to you? ]\Ir. Surrama. Mr. Coe, the superintendent; yes. Mr. George. And did Mr. Coe want you to go ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; he wanted me to go. ^Ir. George. Did ^Ir. Coe talk through an interpreter to you ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. I don't understand English, but the in- terpreter told me I would go to Salt River. Mr. George. And you do not want to go ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Air. George. Why do you not want to go ? Mr. Surrama. I don't want to move to another place. I want to stay at AlrDowell's. Mr. George. Are you satisfied with McDowell ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. Mr. Catlin. Tom, did you get any more pay for being water boss than the other men who worked ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; I didn't get any pay. Mr. Catlin. Who appointed you water boss, and why were you appointed ? Did the chief appoint you water boss ? Mr. Surrama. The chief appointed me. EXPENDITUBBS IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 445 Mr. Catlin. Was that because you knew more about this sort of thing than the other men? Were you appointed because the chief thought you knew more about the water than anyone else ? Mr. SuREAMA. Yes. Mr. Hensley. You understood that character of work better than the other men ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes, sir. Mr. Catlin. Would you like not to have to live on a reservation at all? Mr. SuRRAMA. I don't like reservations. I want to be a citizen. Mr. Catlin. You do not like reservations ? Mr. Surrama. No. Mr. Hensley. Don't you want an agent to look after your affairs and your business ? Mr. Surrama. I don't want any agent. Mr. Hensley. Why do you not want an agent ? Mr. Surrama. He don't show me anything. Mr. Hensley. Do you mean that he will not help you out in making your dams and looking after your water, in the way of directing you ? Mr. Surrama. Yes. Mr. Hensley. He will not help you ? Mr. Surrama. No. Mr. Hensley. Does he not help you in some ways ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; he don't help me. Mr. Hensley. Have you ever gone to him and asked him to help you do certain things ? Mr. Surrama. The chief asked him to help us, but he didn't come around. Mr. Hensley. He would not do it ? Mr. Surrama. He wouldn't do it. Mr. Hensley. How often do you see the agent ? Mr. Surrama. I asked him to look around and show me how to work, and he didn't say anything but "Go there and do work your- seK." Mr. Hensley. Where does the agent live ? Mr. Surrama. Right at the agency. Mr. Hensley. At McDowell ? Mr. Surrama . At McDowell Agency. Mr. Hensley. Do you see the agent every few days ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; I did see him. I asked him to help me, and he wouldn't help me. Mr. Hensley. What does the agent do ? Mr. Surrama. He didn't do anything. Maybe he hked to stay in the house, and that's why he didn't go out of the house. Maybe he likes the chair, sitting down. Mr. Hensley. Too warm for him to get out in the open ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; maybe that is it. Mr. Hensley. Does not the agent help you at all ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; he didn't help me Mr. Hensley. Does not help you at all ? Mr. Surrama. He didn't help me at all. Mr. Hensley. Now, when you sell your chickens and your turkeys, do you have to go to the agent and tell him about it? 446 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBEIOK DEPABTMENT. Mr. SuERAMA. No, sir; I didn't tell him. Mr. Hensley. When you buy a horse or a wagon or a plow, do you have to go and get the permission of the agent? Mr. Stjrrama. No, sir; I didn't do that. Mr. Hensley. If the agent tells you not to buy a wagon or a plow or a horse or a cow or anything, can you go ahead and buy it? Mr. Suerama. No, sir; I can't. Mr. Hensley. Has the agent talked to you about going over into the Salt River country? Mr. Suerama. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Did he tell you he wanted you to move over there ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. What did you say to him in reply ? Mr. SuREAMA. I don't want to go. Mr. Hensley. Then what did the agent say ? Mr. SuREAMA. The agent says, "I want you to go." Mr. Hensley. Did he tell you j'^ou must go ? Mr. SuEEAMA. Yes; "Go there," he says; and I said, "No, no. I can not go." Mr. Hensley. Did the agent explain why he wanted you to move off the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. SuREAMA. Yes; he told me the McDowell Indians, all of them, got to move to Salt River. Mr. Hensley. That they were going to move all of them over to Salt River, and they wanted you to go, too ? Mr. SuEEAMA. Yes. Mr. Hensley. Wliy did he want to move all of them over to Salt River ? Mr. SuEEAMA. I don't laiow. Mr. Hensley. Did he explain to you that you would retain your property rights over at McJDowell; that you would still have your property at McDowell and get extra property over in the Salt River country ? Mr. SuEEAMA. I talked to Mr. Coe, and I told him: "What do I want to go over there for ? I got good land here. What's the use of my going down there ? I got better land and better water, too, here" ; and I told Mr. Coe, "I better hold my land." Mr. Hensley. Then what did Mr. Coe say — that he was going to make you go ? Mr. Suerama. Mr. Coe told me, "You are a good man and I want you to go," but I said, "No, sir." Mr. Hensley. Do you beheve the agent is going to make you go over in the Salt River country ? Mr. Surrama. I don't beheve it. Mr. George. Do you know Mr. Sniffen, of the Indian Rights Association % Mr. Surrama. No, sir; I don't know him. Mr. George. Did you ever hear his name ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir. Mr. George. Do you know Mr. Linnen, or did you ever hear his name ? He is an inspector. Mr. Surrama. Yes; I have heard of him. Mr. George. Or Mr. Gunderson ? Mr. Surrama. Yes; I know him. EXPJSJNDlTUKJiS IJN TJiJ!} 1JNTJSJS.10R DEPARTMENT. 447 Mr. George. And Mr. Norris? Mr. SuRKAMA. No, sir; I never heard of him. Mr. George. Have you ever heard of Mr. Roblin ? Mr. SxjRRAMA. Yes; I Imow him. Mr. George. Did Mr. Linnen or Mr. Gunderson or Mr. Roblin say that the McDowell Indians would have to go to Salt River ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes; I heard Mr. Linnen and Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Roblin tell the McDowell Indians they were to move to Salt River Reservation — all those three. Mr. George. Those three men told the Indians they would have to go to Salt River ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes. Mr. George. When did they say that? Mr. SuRRAMA. In the wintertime. I do not remember when it was. I think along in February. Mr. George. Last February? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes; I think so. Mr. George. Did you loiow who they were? Did you know they were inspectors ? Mr. SuRRAMA. I know Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Roblin; but I don't know Mr. Linnen. Mr. George. You knew of him; but you did not know him pei-sonally ? Mr. SuRRAMA. No, sir. Mr. George. Did Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Roblin tell you that the Indians would have to go to Salt River ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes, sir; Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Roblin told me the McDowell Indians would have to go to Salt River. Mr. George. Did they tell you ? Mr. SuRRAMA. No, sir; the interpreter explained that the Mc- Dowell Indians would have to move to Salt River Reservation. Mr. George. And you were there and heard the interpreter tell them? Mr. SxjRRAMA. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Did Mr. Gunderson and Mr. Roblin make a speech to the Indians ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And did the interpreter interpret the speech to the Indians ? Mr. Stjrrama. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And were you there at that meeting ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes, sir. Mr. George. How many other McDowell Indians were at that meetuig ? Mr. SuRRAMA. All the Indians at McDowell. Mr. George. They were all there? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Was that in February of last winter ? Mr. SuRRAMA. Yes; along in February. Mr. Catlin. Would you rather not have support from the Govern- ment? Mr. Stjrrama. No, sir. Mr. Catlin. You would rather not have any support from the Government ? 448 EXPENDITURES IN XXl£i J-X^ J.J2/XVXV^XV J^XIU. J Mr. SuERAMA. I don't want to be helped from the Government. Mr. Catlin. You do not want any help from the Government ? Mr. SUKEAMA. No. Mr. Catlin. Do you think you would be able to make a good living without any help from the Government ? Mr. SuEEAMA. Yes, sir; I think I better stay without any help from the Government. Mr. Catlin. Do you think you would be able to make a better living without help from the Government than you make now with help from the Government ? Mr. Sueeama. L can't answer that. Mr. Geoegb. Do the white men's cattle eat your crops? Mr. Sueeama. They did not eat my crops. They went outside of the fence. Mr. Geoege. You keep them out with a fence? Mr. Sueeama. Yes, I keep them out with a fence. Mr. Geoege. Do you know of any Indians who have the white men's cattle eat their crops ? Mr. Sueeama. I have been told white men's cattle are eating their crops, but not mine. The Chairman. Have you done any work by the day for the Government for which you got pay from the agent, in the ditches, or anywhere else 1 Mr. Sueeama. Mr. Coe did not help me; Mr. GUI helped me. The Chaieman. Did you buy any new plow or any new harness lately? Mr. Sueeama. Yes, sir; I bought a harness lately from Mr. Coe. The Chaieman. How did you pay for it ? Mr. Sueeama. Before I got the harness I asked him how much the harness was, and he said $18.50. I asked him what he wanted, money or something else, and Mr. Coe said he wanted fence posts. He said he wanted about 125 posts, so I gave them to him. The Chaieman. The 125 posts paid for the $18.50 worth of harness ? Mr. Sueeama. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. Was that harness for one horse or for two horses? Mr. Sueeama. Two horses. The Chaieman. What was it made of, leather or chains? Mr. Sueeama. Chains. The Chaieman. That is a hillj^ country down there, is it not? What I want to get is, do you have to have holdback straps, or breeching, on the harness there ? Mr. Sueeama. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. The $18.50 was only a fair price for the harness, was it ? Mr. Sueeama. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. Did you ever sell any posts to anybody else for money ? Mr. Surrama. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much are posts, such as j^ou gave Mr. Coe? Mr. Surrama. One post costs 15 cents. The Chairman. Who made the posts ? Mr. Surrama. Do you mean who cut them ? The Chairman. Cut them and split them. Mr. Surrama. I cut them. JSii.rjiJNmxUB.Jio liN xa-ju xa^aaxO^ DEPARTMENT. 449 The Chaieman. Where did j-ou get the timber from which they were made; where did the trees grow? Mr. SuBRAMA. Right there at McDowell, on the other side of the river. The Chairman. What use did Mr. Coe have for the posts; what did he do with them ? Mr. Surrama. I did not loiow what they did with these posts. The Chairman. Did you ever do any work for Mr. Coe for wages, any day work, either by yourself or yourself and team ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; I did not work for him. If he hired me I might have worked for him; but he did not hire me. The Chairman. Did you work for Mr. Gill when he was the agent ? Mr. Surrama. No, sir; I did not work for him. But other Indians worked for him. The Chairman. Do you know what they got a day when they worked for Gill ? Mr. Surrama. I do not know how much they got. Mr. Catlin. Are any of j'our children in the Government school ? Mr. Surrama. I have no children. The Chairman. Have you any questions you would hke to ask, ' Mr. Merritt ? Mr. Merritt. The only question I wanted to bring out was whether the Indian children attended the Government school. The Chairman. He has already testified he had no children. Mr. Catlin. But Mr. Merritt meant with reference to others. The Chairman. Charlie, I think, testi&ed that his children are not yet going to school. What is the fact about it, Charlie ? Have you any children going to the agency school ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How many ? Mr. Dickens. One. The Chairman. How far is it ? Mr. Dickens. Four miles. The Chairman. Does the child walk or ride ? Mr. Dickens. She walks up every morning and back; sometimes she can ride a horse. The Chairman. You say she goes every morning and comes home every evening ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How old is the child ? Mr. Dickens. Seven years old. The Chairman. Does she walk most of the time or ride most of the time ? Mr. Dickens. She walks mostly, but she rides sometimes. If she has sore feet she can ride the horse. Sometimes I take her up with me, too. The Chairman. Can she read any yet ? Mr. Dickens. No; she has only been going one je&r. The Chairman. Does she like to go to school ? Mr. Dickens. I guess so. The Chairman. VSHiat is her name ? Mr. Dickens. Dorothy. The Chairman. If you left it to Dorothy herself, would she go to school or not ? 450 EXPENDITURES IN THE nSTTEKlUK DEPABXJVIEHT. Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Are there any white children attending that school ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many attend the school altogether, do you know, of all kinds ? Mr. Dickens. About 35. The Chairman. And of them how many are white ? Mr. Dickens. No white children; just the Indians. TESTIMONY OF GEORGE DICKENS. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman, and testified through an interpreter, Mr. Charles Dickens, as follows:) The Chairman. Your name is George Dickens ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You are a brother to Charhe, who is the iater- preter ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You are a cousin of Dr. Montezuma, who gave . testimony here the other day ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How old are you ? Mr. Dickens. About 37 or 38. The Chairman. Are you a married man ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much family have you ? Mr. Dickens. Five children. The Chairman. Is your wife hving ? Mr. Dickens. My wife is hving. The Chairman. What kind of a house do you hve in ? Mr. Dickens. A lumber house. The Chairman. Is it one of the houses that was built by a white settler « Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many rooms are in your house? Mr. Dickens. Two rooms. The Chairman. Is that enough for your family ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Plave you a stove in your house, or do you cook with an open hearth ? Mr. Dickens. I have a cooking stove. The Chairman. ^Vliere did you buy the stove ? Mr. Dickens. Phoenix. The Chairman. Do vou remember what you paid for it ? Mr. Dickens. $8. The Chairman. How long have you had it ? Mr. Dickens. Two years. The Chairman. What is the usual food you have for breakfast every morning ? Mr. Dickens. Some bread and coffee and meat, and other things. The Chairman. Do you bake bread in the stove ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; in the stove. We make biscuits for breakfast. EXPBNDITUKES IN THE IJSITEmOR DEPARTMENT. 451 The Chaieman. You know what bakers' bread is, called light bread ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I know how to bake that. The Chairman. Does your wife know how to make that kind of bread ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Does she make it ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Do you use eggs much for food ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; we use plenty of eggs for breakfast. The Chairman. And chickens? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; chickens. The Chairman. How many chickens have you at home ? Mr. Dickens. Sixty. The Chairman. How many turkeys? Mr. Dickens. Forty-five. The Chairman. Have you any pigs or hogs in that country ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. How do you get meat? Mr. Dickens. Mesa. The Chairman. You buy it ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Beef meat, or do you buy pork, hog meat ? Mr. Dickens. Sometimes I buy some. The Chairman. What, beef or pork ? Mr. Dickens. Pork. The Chairman. Do you know much about how the other Indians there live, and what they have to eat ? Mr. Dickens. The same tilings. The Chairman. Have they all plenty of good food to eat all the time ? Mr. Dickens. Plenty to eat and good to eat. The Chairman. Where do you buy your clothes, and your wife's and children's clothes? Mr. Dickens. Mesa. The Chairman. Do you pay for them with money ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How do you get the money ? Mr. Dickens. Selling turkeys and chickens. The Chairman. Do you sell eggs ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. How much did you pay for the suit you are wear- ing? Mr. Dickens. $12. The Chairman. Are all the Indians down there as well dressed as the four who have come here before the committee ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; they wear good clothes — nice. The Chairman. How often do the women there have wash days ? How often do th^ wash the family clothes ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; they wash them every week. The Chairman. Do they buy soap to use ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; they buy a lot of soap. The Chairman. Do you buy anything at the agency? 98240— No. 11—11 2 452 EXPENDITURES l ii ^^^ ^^,^^^.^ ^ — Mr. Dickens. Yes ; we buy harness from them. The Chairman. How do you pay for it ? Mr. Dickens. I pay by posts, the same as the other men — 125 posts. The Chairman. For a set of harness ? Mr. Dickens. Set of harness; yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you ever pay for anything in labor? Mr. Dickens. Not buy anything except a wagon. The Chairman. When was that % Mr. Dickens. Four years ago. The Chairman. What did you pay for the wagon ? Mr. Dickens. $120. The Chairman. Was it a common farm wagon % Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; a farm wagon; a good, big wagon. The Chairman. Do you know what you would have to pay for it at Phoenix or Mesa, or anywhere else, the same kind of a wagon? Mr. Dickens. In Mesa town it is worth small wages. They pay a little. But down at Phoenix high priced. The Chairman. Do you know what kind of a wagon — what make of wagon — ^it was ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know what kind of a make wagon it was. The Chairman. Was there a name painted on the side of it ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I do not know. The Chairman. Do you know whether $120 was about the right price, or whether it was too much, or not enough, or what the vsQue of it was ? Mr. Dickens. I think it was worth that much; the wagon is pretty good. The Chairman. How did you pay for it ? Mr. Dickens. Cutting wood. 1 "know how many cords I make, and sell them and buy wagon. The Chairman. Did you bring the wood to Coe, the agent, or sell it and bring him the money ? Mr. Dickens. I did not sell it to Mr. Coe, but outside of the reser- vation, down near towns, to somebody. The Chairman. And then brought the money to Coe ? Mr. Dickens. Not Mr. Coe. The Chairman. To whom ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Bear. The Chairman. To the agency, anyhow ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Did you do any work in the Government djtches for pay ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I got paid wages. The Chairman. What did you get ? Mr. Dickens. A dollar a day. I was working with a team. The Chairman. Did you do any work without a team ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; sometimes. The Chairman. What did you get without the team ? Mr. Dickens. Fifty cents. The Chairman. Did you ever go to school at all ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Are any of your children going to school now ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPARTMENT. 453 * Mr. Dickens. Two of them. The Chairman. How old is your oldest child ? Mr. Dickens. Eleven years old. The Chairman. How old is your youngest child ? Mr. Dickens. Nine years old. The Chairman. How many have you ? Mr. Dickens. Five. The Chairman. How old «,re the others ? Mr. Dickens. One of them 5 years old, and another one 3 years old, and another one IJ years. The Chairman. That is the baby ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many of them are boys ? Mr. Dickens. Three boys. The Chairman. Is the oldest a boy or a girl ? Mr. Dickens. A boy. The Chairman. Does that boy do any work on the farm? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What kind ? Mr. Dickens. PuUiag weeds in the gardens. The Chairman. Does he plow? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many plows have you ? Mr. Dickens. One. The Chairman. How much land do you farm ? Mr. Dickens. Ten acres. The Chairman. Is that all you have, altogether? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What crops have you in this year ? Mr. Dickens. Wheat and barley and some corn, and watermelons and muskmelons and pumpkins. The Chairman. How many bushels of wheat can you get from 1 acre a year ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Mr. Chairman, George can not answer; he can not tell how many. The Chairman. How many acres of wheat have you planted, George ? Mr. Dickens. Four acres. The Chairman. How many sacks of wheat will you get from the 4 acres ? Mr. Dickens. I think about 17 or 18 sacks. The Chairman. Two bushels to the sack. What will you do with the wheat ? Mr. Dickens. Sell it at Mesa. The Chairman. What does that bring there, do you know; what is it worth ? Mr. Dickens. Two dollars and twenty-five cents a hundred, and some other place $2, and some other place $1.75 a hundred. The Chairman. Did you help Tom Surrama make that ditch Tom told us about ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; we helped each other. The Chairman. Does that ditch bring water to your land ? Mr. Dickens. I have another ditch down below where I Uve, and Tom has another ditch above. 454 EXPENDITURES IN THIS IJSTJfiKlUJi l>Ji;±'AJi.XJViJaJNX. The Chairman. Do you get water to your land through the ditch that Tom Surrama opened, or not ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Who made the ditch that brings water to your land ? Mr. Dickens. I. The Chairman. Yourself, do you mean ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; myself and other Indians — 11 men. The Chairman. Who helped you; that is, who bossed the doing of it ? Mr. Dickens. I bossed. The Chairman. Did you make the ditch in the first instance, or was it an old ditch that you opened ? Mr. Dickens. It was an old ditch. The Chairman. How long a ditch is it ? Mr. Dickens. I think it is about 10 years old. The Chairman. And how many miles long from the river ? Mr. Dickens. Onp mile. The Chairman. Do you have any trouble with the brush dam; does it wash away ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; the brush washes away. The Chairman. What do you do ? Mr. Dickens. We build another dam. The Chairman. Does the superintendent or the agent or the head farmer help you ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; he does not help us. The Chairman. Did you hear Tom tell awhile ago how they made their dam ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you make yours the same way ? , Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; the same way. The Chairman. Does it furnish you enough water ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; plenty of water. The Chairman. What kind of water have you to use in the family? Have you a well ? Mr. Dickens. We use the ditch water and also make a little well. The Chairman. What does a "little well" mean? Mr. Dickens. Just a little well. The Chairman. Has anybody asked you to move from McDowell to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe. The Chairman. The agent ? Mr. Dickens. The agent. The Chairman. When was that ? Mr. Dickens. Along about February. The Chairman. Has he asked you more than once ? Mr. Dickens. He told us all the time to move down to Salt River. The Chairman. Can you tell us just what Mr. Coe said to you ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe told the Indians, he says, "The Goyernment will let you move down to Salt River." But we do not believe him. The Chairman. What did you say to Coe ? Mr. Dickens. I did not talk to him, but we just said we did not believe him that the Government was to move us to another place. EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. 455 The Chairman. Do you want to move from McDowell to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; I do not want to move. The Chairman. Are you satisfied where you are ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Why do you not want to go to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. I want to stay at my home, McDowell; I do not want to go. The Chairman. Do you want the Government to help you any, or do you want to be a citizen, independent of the Government ? Mr. Dickens. I do not want any Government to help me ; I want to be a citizen. The Chairman. To be a citizen means that you would have to pay taxes on your property every year. Are you willing to do that ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I am willing to pay taxes every year. The Chairman. What do you think is better for the Indian, to get Government help or to be free from the Government help and make his own living ? Mr. Dickens. I do not want any more Government bother me too much; I want to be a citizen. The Chairman. That is, speaking for yourself; but I want to get your judgment as to the other Indians there in McDowell. What do you think is better for them ? Mr. Dickens. They think the same way. The Chairman. Are there any Indians at McDowell who can not make a living if the Government does not help them? Mr. Dickens. I can not answer very well. The Chairman. Do you know all the Indians in that reservation ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I know them. The Chairman. Do the families visit each other at their homes ? Let me explain that. Do you and your wife and children sometimes So off to the house of another Indian and visit with him and eat inner at his house ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Has any other Indian, with his wife and family, come to your house to visit and spend the day ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; some of them come to visit me. The Chairman. That does not happen often, does iti Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Have they any place where then meet from time to time, have gatherings of the people in a neighborhood ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. Sometimes we have a gathering and a good feast. The Chairman. Where do they gather, or meet? Mr. Dickens. At the chief's house. The Chairman. Do they have eating, then ? Do they all have something to eat ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. WTio furnishes it ? Mr. Dickens. The chief. The Chairman. What means has the chief to feast all of them? Do they pay him anything as chief ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; we do not pay anything. They notify us to come to his house and have a big feast. 456 EXPENDITURES IN j-tiji .UNrjiiitiuji jjjiar-AitxivxJiJN x. The Chairman. Do you bring your eating -with you when you go? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Each one brings his own food, does he ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; his own food. The Chairman. I mean the bread and meat and things you want to eat. Do you bring them along with you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; we bring some along. The Chairman. Have you a council house or any building to m«et in ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; no house excepting a big shed. They built a big shed. ' The Chairman. Is there any church building in McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Whereabouts in the reservation is it? Near the middle of it, or where ? Mr. DiOKENS. Right in the middle of it; by the agency. The Chairman.' Who built it ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Gill. The Chairman. What denomination is the church ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know. The Chairman. Do the Indians attend it much ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; they go. The Chairman. Do you go with your family ? Mr. Dickens. I go with my family every Sunday to the church, The Chairman. You go ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I go. The Chairman. In what tongue is the service conducted; English or Indian ? Mr. Dickens. Indian; by an interpreter. The Chairman. How many attend every Sunday ? Mr. Dickens. A lot of them, 30 or 40 altogether, with the children. The Chairman. Are they mostly children, or grown folks, who g&? Mr. Dickens. Children and young men and old men and women. The Chairman. Do they have singing there in the service ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; the children sing, but we do not know how. The Chairman. The children sing in Enghsh ? Mr. Dickens. Yes; but we do not know how to sing. The Chairman. Do you enjoy the singing? Do you Uke it, like to hear it ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; fine. The Chairman. Do you know anything about an attempt to estab- Hsh a post office in McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. Yes ; I heard from Mr. Coe, and he told me he would like to have a post office in Fort McDowell. Mr. Coe told me to sign for a post office and I would not sign. I did not want a post office. The Chairman. Did Mr. Coe say why he wanted a post office there ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know why he wanted it. The Chairman. Had you any reason for not wanting a post office there ? Mr. Dickens. I do not like a post office. I am not getting any mail all the time. The Chairman. How do you get mail now ? Mr. Dickens. There is some one to go down to Scottdale post office. The Chairman. Is there a post office at the McDowell Agency now ? EXPEi^MTUftiES-m TH^E rliTTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 45*1' , Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Where did Coe want to put this post office that he asked you to sign for ? , - '"^^ Mr. Dickens. McDo-well. The Chairman. At the agency there ? ■ Mr. Dickens. The agency; yes, sir. The Chairman. When you get mail now, as I understand it, thfe mail is carried by somebody from Scottdale by the agency and tljen distributed from the agency among the McDowell people; is that right? Mr. Dickens. Yes; that is right. The Chairman. If there is a letter for you, do you have to go to the agency for it or does some one take it from the agency to you? ' Mr. Dickens. Some one brings my mail down arid hand's it to tae, if I have a letter. The Chairman. Do you know Inspector Linuen? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I met him at Sacaton. The Chairman. When? Mr. Dickens. Last winter. The Chairman. Do you know Chief of Inspectors Gunderson ? . ' Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I met him in Camp McDowell. The Chairman. Did you meet him about the same time you met liinnen, or near the same time? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I saw him with Mr. Linnen at Sacaton. The Chairman. Were they together ? Mr. Dickens. They were together. The Chairman. Do you know Inspector Norris ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know him. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Sniflen, of the Indian Rights Association ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; I met him at Sacaton. The Chairman. Name all the parties you met at Sacaton that time. You say you met Linnen, Sniffen, and Gunderson. If there was anyone else, tell who it v/as. Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe. The Chairman. Did they send for you to meet them there ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; Mr. Coe told us Mr. Linnen was at Saca- ton and if we wanted to talk to him we could go there. The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Roblin, superintendent of allotments ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was he with them ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Name, if you can, those who were there at Sacaton. Mr. Dickens. Mr. Linnen, Mr. Sniffen, Mr. Gunderson, Mr. Coe, and Chief Yuma Frank, and Harry Mott, and George Dickens, and Charles Dickens. The Chairman. How far is it from McDowell to Sacaton ? Mr. Dickens. I can not tell how far. The Chairman. How do you go, by train ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; by wagon. The Chairman. And how long did it take you to drive ? ; Mr. Dickens. A day. The Chairman. A day to go and a day to come back? p8 EXPENDITTJBES IN" a..mu ±jx A.j:uvi.yjj\ x/juirju^j.iu.f^x'^i j.» Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chaikman. Do you not know how much in miles a day's journey is ? Mr. Dickens. Eight or nine hours. I think we make nine hours to go there, from McDowell to Sacaton. The Chaikman. It would be in the neighborhood of 50 miles, then, would it not; or do you know by miles? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chaikman. How long did you stay at Sacaton ? Mr. Dickens. Two days. The Chaikman. Were you at any expense while you were there ? Mr. Dickens. The Government paid the expense. The Chairman. Who paid ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe ; $5, our expenses, to buy something to eat on the way. The Chairman. Did he give each one $5 ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; just $5. The Chairman. Five for all of you. Mr. Dickens. All of us. The CHAiRMAif. To whom did he give the $5. Mr. Charles Dickens. To me. He gave me 15 and told me it was $5 for expenses, to go and buy food. The Chairman. What did he want with you there at Sacaton? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe asked me to go there for some business about moving. -' The Chairman. Who talked to you ? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Coe said: "While Mr. Ijinnen is there you had better go and talk to him." The Chairman. Did Ijinnen talk to you ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did he advise you to move from McDowell to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you remember what he said about that? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Linnen told me: "I want you Indians to move down to Salt River, the Government will give you 5 acres of land down there." The Chairman. Did Sniffen talk to you at all about it? Mr. Dickens. No sir; he did not talk; he was writing. The Chairman. Was he there when Linnen talked about it? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; he was sitting by him writing like this young man [indicating the stenographer]. The Chairman. Who was the interpreter? Mr. Dickens. Charlie. The Chairman. What was Linnen writing ? Mr. Dickens. I do not know; maybe we taked to Mr. Linnen and he write it. The Chairman. Do you Itnow how he was writing it, whether he wrote it the way your brother Charles writes, or whether the way the stenographer across the table from you is writing now? Mr. Dickens. I did not see very -Well how he wrote, whether like that, or shorthand. The Chairman. I will ask you, Charlie, do you know whether Mr. Linnen was writing in long hand, such as you write, or whether he was writing like a stenographer, as this gentleman is now writing ? EXPENDITUBES IN THil IJMTJJJKlUii DEPARTMENT. 459 Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir; I did not look very well. I sat right here, and Mr. Sniffen sat over there, where Mr. Hensley is sitting. I did not look at his writing. I looked at Mr. Linnen and his face, and I did not see Mr. Sniffen writing very well. The Chairman. Do you know whether the conversation you men had there was taken down as you talked it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. Mr. George. In shorthand? Mr. Charles Dickens. Maybe in shorthand; I do not know. I did not see his writing. Mr. George. Was anybody else writing there ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Nobody else, except Mr. Sniffen. The Chairman. George, what part did Mr. Gunderson take in that meeting? Mr. Dickens. Mr. Linnen asked us about moving, and Mr. Gunder- son also said we ought to move, the same way that Mr. Linnen did. Mr. Linnen said afterwards, "I can't do anything with this man," and they saw we did not want to move. Mr. Linnen said that. The Chairman. How long were you there talking together, you and your party, and Linnen, Sniffen, Gunderson, and the others; how long did this talk last ? Mr. Dickens. About two or three hours; along there. The Chairman. How long did those men stay in Sacaton ? Mr. Dickens. We ? The Chairman. No; the white men. ]VIr. Dickens. I do not know how long. The Chairman. Were they there when you got there ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know whether they left before you or after you ? Ml'. Dickens. We came first and we left them there. The Chairman. Did any of them go to McDowell at that time at all? Mr. Dickens. No, sir; not any of the inspectors, except Mr. Coe returned home from Sacaton. The Chairman. Charles, you acted as interpreter between the Indians and the white men there, did you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There could not have been anything said between them without your knowledge ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you agree with the account your brother has given as to what was said between the parties there ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir; I agree with my brother and the chief and the other man, Mr, Harry Mott. The Chairman. Now, George, are you willing to move from McDowell to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you want any allotment on Salt River in addi- tion to what you have at McDowell ? Mr. Dickens. I would rather stay at Camp McDowell. I do not want to go to another place. Mr. Catlin. Why would you rather stay there; what are your reasons ? 460 EXPENmruRES in the interior department. Mr. Dickens. Because it is my home. The Chairman. Do you know Dave Gilbert and Minnie ? . - Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know that they hare consented to more to Salt River ? Mr. Dickens. Yes, sir; they are Avilling to move to Salt River. The Chairman. Do you know any other Indians at McDoweH who have consented to move or who are willing to go ? Mr. Dickens. Gilbert Davis is the first man who wants to move to Salt River, and we heard Gilbert say he wanted to try to get all the Indians from McDowell to move to Salt River. The Chairman. Do you know whether Davis got any other Indians to consent to go to Salt River? Mr. Dickens. Yes, Gilbert said he got five men, outside of him, to go to Salt River. :. The Chairman. Do you know whether that is so? . Mr. Dickens. No. The Chairman. How many Indians are there at McDowell who are not Mojave Apaches ? Mr. Dickens. About 60. (Thereupon, at 1.25 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. Saturday, June 17, 1911. The committee reconvened at 2.30 o'clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. TESTIMONY OF GEORGE DICKEITS— Continued. The witness testified through Charles Dickens, who acted as inter- preter. The Chairman. There is just one point I want to ask Charles Dickens about. Charles, I direct this question to you personally. Is the number of tlie Indians on the McDowell Reservation incieas- ing or decreasing? That is, are there more people there now than there were 10 or 15 years ago, or less people? Mr. Charles Dickens. Well, I came there, it would be 15 or 16 years ago, and I saw not so many Indians there at that time when I came there; very few families. After one year a lot of them came in. The Chairman. For the last 10 years do you think the Indians have been increasing or decreasing in numbers ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Some, there, in that time. The chief, Yuma Frank, came there, and George Dickens, my brother. The Chairman. Now, to get at what I want another way, are children being born on the reservation faster than the people are dying ofl^ ? Are there more births than deaths ? Mr. Charles Dickens. More, yes. A good many die. The Chairman. And a great many are born ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Now which are more, the births or the deaths? : Mr. Charles Dickens. Births. EXPENDITTJKES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 461 The Chjaerman. There are 200 people there now, according to a statement' that I have seen made. How many do you think there were, say five years ago ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I do not remember, Mr. Chairman. I eould not tell you. The Chairman. Do you think any of the men here would know better than you about that ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I do not know, sir. Mr. George. Would the chief? Mr. Charles Dickens. It might be. The Chairman. When any person dies on the reservation, would you be likely to hear about the death ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. Where do they bury those who die on the reserva- tion? Mr. Charles Dickens. On .the reservation. The Chairman. Is there a cemetery; one place where they are all buried ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes; the military graveyard. The Chairman. The old military graveyard ? Mr. Charles Dickens. The old military graveyard. The Chairman. All the dead bodies are taken there, are they ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Young and old ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Then there might be a good many deaths, you think, that you would never hear of ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. And births, too ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Births, too. The Chairman. Do you know everybody on the reservation — that, is, do you know all the grown folks ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Do you know the heads of the families ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Have they all English names ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Some of them English names and some of them Indian names. The Chairman. That is, some of them only have Indian names ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. When children are born to them, do they have them christened — baptized ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I couldn't get that. The Chairman. Do you know what that is ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. How do they give them a name ? Mr. Charles Dickens. We give them an Indian name and we give them EngUsh names too. The Chairman. Is the number of people who have only Indian names growing more or less ? Mr. Charles Dickens. More. The Chairman. I think you do not understand. What I want is, have more of the people English names or American names now than five years ago ? 462 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Chaeles Dickens. I could not answer, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Do most of the people there, as a rule, want to have English or American names? Mr. Charles Dickens. Some of their names are English names. The Chairman. How many of the farmers there have wood houses to live in — lumber houses ? Mr. Charles Dickens. The Indians ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Charles Dickens. I do not remember. A lot of them. I can't say how many. The Chairman. As many as haK of the farmers have frame or lum- ber houses to live in ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes ; most all of them. The Chairman. What kind are the other houses that are not lum- ber? Mr. Charles Dickens. A tepee; what they call a tepee. The Chairman. Is that made of canvas ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Canvas; yes, sir. The Chairman. A tent ? Mr. Charles Dickens. A tent; yes, sir. The Chairman. Is the tent shaped like a house or like the old Indian tepee ? Mr. Charles Dickens. It is just like a house; like you find, you know. The Chairman. You make a frame of poles and then spread the canvas over it, house fashion ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. What does it have for a floor ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No floor. The Chairman. The earth? Mr. Charles Dickens. The ground, that is all; no floor. The Chairman. How do those who have that kind of a place to live in cook their food ? Mr. Charles Dickens. They build a fire outside. The Chairman. And cook on it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes; some of them have got a stove. The Chairman. How do they sleep ? Mr. Charles Dickens. In a bed or some other way. Some of them sleep in a bed and some of them sleep on the ground; but they put a mattress on the ground and sleep on it. The Chairman. Are the beds which they use beds that have been bought out of the stores or some other kind ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes; they bought some. The Chairman. What are they ; wood or iron ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Wood and iron, both. The Chairman. You know what the iron bedstead is, do you not; you have seen those bedsteads ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I have seen a whole lot of them. The Chairman. As far as you know, are there many or few deaths among the little children on the reservation ? That is, do many of the little children die? Mr. Charles Dickens. I think there are only a few children. The older ones, a lot ot them, die. The Chairman. The deaths are, then, among the old people? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 463 Mr. Charles Diokens. The old people; and the young ones, not many. The Chairman. Do you know much about the age of the very oldest people there, how old they hve to be? Mr. Charles Dickens. I could not tell you, Mr. Chairman. I know one old man; his age was 115 years. He died last month, the 15th of last month. He was very old. The Chairman. Do you know how he counted his age ? Mr. Charles Dickens. He knew by his father. The Chairman. How long had you known him ? Mr. Dickens. I knew him since I was a boy. The Chairman. Was he a very old man then ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, he was a very old man. The Chairman. When you were a boy? Mr. Charles Dickens. A boy, yes. Now he is dead; he died the 15th of last month. The Chairman. When such a man as he dies, do the people on the reservation, or those who live near him, go to help bury the body and go to the funeral ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. How many attended his funeral, do you know ? Mr. Charles Dickens. About 10 or 15 men. The Chairman. Did you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Sometimes I have. The Chairman. Did you go to his funeral ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No; I did not see him. I was in Ray, at the mines ; but I got a letter from somebody that the old man died the 15th of last month. The Chairman. I do not think of anything further to ask of either George or Charles. Mr. Catlin. I would hke to ask a question of George. In the McDowell Reservation are not some Indians more wiUing to follow the suggestions of the agent than others ? Mr. Dickens. Yes. Mr. Catlin. The suggestions of the agent or superintendent ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Catlin. You say no ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. Mr. Catlin. George, is it a fact that there are two parties or fac- tions in the McDowell Reservation, one of which is in sympathy with the superintendent, and the other that is not in sympathy with the superintendent ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I can not get that. Mr. Catlin. Do some foUow the agent and others not follow the . agent? Mr. Charles Dickens. I can not get it. Mr. Catlin. Do not some Indians in the McDowell Reservation generally follow what the superintendent suggests to them, and are there not other Indians who do not want to follow the suggestions of the superintendent? Mr. Dickens. Some of them foUow him, but we do not follow him; we Mohave Apaches. Some of another tribe, they follow him Mj. Catlin. Your tribe is apt not to follow the suggestions of th superintendent ? 464 EXPENmiTJBES IN THE INTEBIOB. - UJSJ^AKTJVlMJN-iV Mr. Charles Dickens. Of the superintendent- Mr. Catlin. Why ? Mr. Dickens. Because he does not help us. The Chairman. George, did Superintendent Coe take any letter from you ? Mr. Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. I will address this question to you personally, Charles. To whom was the letter addressed which the superintendent took from you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Carlos Montezuma. The Chairman. He wrote it, but to whom did Dr. Montezuma write it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. He wrote it to me. The Chairman. Was it for you alone, or were you to show it to the other persons in the tribe ? Mr. Charles Dickens. He wanted me to show it to my tribe, Garlos Montezuma — that is, the letter. The Chairman. Then, it was not exactly your own letter, but it was a letter addressed to you for the benefit of aU the MohaTe^ Apaches ? Mr. Charles Dickens. The Mohave-Apaches, yes, sir. The Chairman. That was the one Mr. Coe took from you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Took from me, with Mr. Gunderson, yes, sir. The Chairman. What became of that letter ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I do not know. The Chairman. Where is it now ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Down home. I have got it yet, that letter. The Chairman. You have it now ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes; I marked on this letter, with Mr. Coe and Mr. Gunderson. I marked off, of course, you know. Of course he read this letter. The Chairman. You wrote down on it Mr. Charles Dickens. On the letter; inside of the letter. I marked off the letter; Mr. Coe read it. The Chairman. That is, you made a note in writing on the letter, saying that Mr. Coe had read that letter ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir; yes, sir. The Chairman. That is it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did George get a letter like the one you got ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Frank got one. ADDITIONAI TESTIMONY OF YUMA FRANK, The Chairman. Did you and the chief each have a letter from Dr. Montezuma, or was there one letter written to you because you could read and write ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I got a letter first, and then the chief he got a letter, after one month. Mr. Coe read my letteir, and then the chief got a letter. The Chairman. Did the chief get a letter from Dr. Carlos Monte- zuma with reference to the people moviag from McDowell to Salt River? jiAJTJixsjjixuJijio iiN xxxa liN xjiixviuxt DEPARTMENT. 465 Mr. Frank. In my letter Dr. Montezuma wrote to me he did not say anything about moving. The Chairman. You did get a letter ? Mr. Frank. I did get a letter; yes, sir. The Chairman. About what time did you get it ? . Mr. Frank. I do not loaow what month. I could not tell. The Chairman. Do you know when you got your letter, Charlie ? Mr. Charles Dickens. In March. The Chairman. How long before you got your letter did the chief get his letter ? Mr. Charles Dickens. My letter, you say ? The Chairman. Yes, your letter. Mt. Charles Dickens. Mr. Coe read my letter in February, and the chief says he got his letter in March. The Chairman. I had not reached that yet. The letter that the chief got from Dr. Montezuma, where is it now ? Mr. Frank. I have got it yet, down home, that letter. The Chairman. Did Mr. Coe read the chief's letter ? Mr. Frank. Mr. Coe asked me for my letter. "Give it to me," he says. He asked me two or three times, and I gave it to him, and he took my letter and went in his ofhce — went in the house, I mean. The Chairman. How long did Mr. Coe keep the chief's letter? Mr. Frank. About 30 minutes. The Chairman. How did Mr. Coe know that the chief, Yuma Frank, got a letter from Dr. Montezuma ? Mr. Frank. I got my letter all right, because I know I have got a letter, and I went down there and asked for a letter, and I got one letter there, and I get the letter and he hands it to me, and he says he wants to see the letter, and open it first. Mr. Coe says, "I want to see this letter first." Then, I refused to give him this letter, and I went home, and afterwards Mr. Coe came to me again and he wanted to see the letter again, and he said, "When you read this letter, bring it down, to-morrow. I would like to read it, too." The Chairman. Who was the first person to read that letter of the chief's after he got it ? Mr. Frank. My boy. The Chairman. Then you took the letter home before you opened it, did you ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. And your son read it to you ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Then later, you saw Mr. Coe, and Mr. Coe told you to bring the letter down to his office ? Mr. Frank. Yes. The Chairman. Was that the next day or was it several days after you got it ? Mr. Frank. The same day. The Chairman. How far do you live from Mr. Coe's office ? Mr. Frank. About a mile and a half. Mr. Hensley. I would like to follow that out a httle further. Did the chief turn the letter over to the agent, Mr. Coe, when Mr. Coe came to his house and first asked him for it ? - Mr. Frank. He asked me right there at Ms office, not at my house. 466 EXPENMTXJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hensley. The chief did not give the agent the letter at his oflEice, did he ? Mr. Frank. No, sir; I would not give it to him at his office. Mr. Hensley. But the chief waited and took the letter home, and the agent waited and came to the home of the chief and got the letter ? Mr. Frank. Mr. Coe said: "When you take this letter to your house and read it first, then bring it down, I want to read it, too." Mr. Hensley. Did the chief take the letter down to the office, to the agent? Mr. Frank. Yes. Mr. Hensley. Did the chief want to give the letter to the agent and let him read it ? Mr. Frank. He askd me two or three times, and I gave it to him. I refused to give it to him, but he asked me and I gave it to him. Mr. Hensley. Was the chief willing to give Mr. Coe the letter ? Mr. Frank. No, sir; I was not wilhng to give it to him, but he asked me many times, and I gave it to him. Mr. Hensley. If the chief had refused to turn the letter over to Mr. Coe, what would Mr. Coe have done ? Mr. Frank. I talked to Mr. Coe, and I said, "Are you afraid of this letter ? Why do you want to see it ?" Mr. Hensley. What would Mr. Coe have done to the chief if he had not given him the letter, but had told him, "No; you can not have the letter. This is my letter" ? Mr. Frank. He would not let me go when I wanted to go.. And he asked me for the letter. He said, "Give me the letter. I want the letter," and stand by me. He would not let me go back. Mr. Hensley. Does the chief mean that Mr. Coe made him give the letter to him ? Mr. Frank. Yes; he said, "Give it to me. Give me that letter," he says, " I want to see that letter." Mr. Hensley. What would have happened to the chief if he had told the agent, "Mr. Coe, you can not have this letter. This letter is mine"? Mr. Frank. Well, I did refuse to give it to him, but he asked me and asked me and asked me, and I was afraid I might get hurt by Mr. Coe. Mr. Hensley. By the agent ? Mr. Charles Dickens. The chief thinks that way, you know. He was afraid of Mr. Coe. Mr. Hensley. Was the chief afraid of Mr. Coe ? Mr. Frank. I was afraid of Mr. Coe. Mr. Hensley. What could Mr. Coe have done if the chief had not turned the letter over to him ? Mr. Frank. He might arrest me. Mr. Hensley. That was the reason why the chief was afraid not to do what the agent, Mr. Coe, told him to do ? Mr. Frank. Yes, sir; that is the reason. Mr. Hensley. If Mr. Coe, the agent, had arrested the chief, what would he have done with him; if he had arrested him? Mr. Frank. If he arrested me? I heard somebody say that I get arrested, by letter. Mr. Hensley. No; but could the agent, Mr. Coe, put the chief in jail? JiXJPJiiSItiTUKES liM THE liMJLHiUJl DEPAETMENT. 467 Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. Mr. Hensley. Ask the chief that. Could the agent put him in the guardhouse or the jail? Mr. Frank. In the jail; yes. Mr. Hensley. Could the agent do that with the chief ? Mr. Frank. He did not arrest me, but I was afraid, and I gave him the letter. Mr. Hensley. Could he do it if he wanted to ? Mr. Frank. Yes; I thought he would do it. I was afraid. I thought he would do it. Mr. Hensley. You mean you thought he would do it if you did not give him the letter ? Mr. Frank. Yes; that is it. Mr. Hensley. Does the agent ever put the Indians in jail? Mr. Frank. No, sir; since I have been there Mr. Coe never arrested anybody yet. Mr. Hensley. Mr. Coe has not ? Mr. Frank. No, sir. Mr. Hensley. What does the chief mean by "arrest" ? Mr. Frank. Arrest me, in the guardhouse. • Mr. Hensley. That settles it. What kind of a house is the guard- house ? Mr. Frank. We did not have any guardhouse on the reservation, but maybe I would be put in jail down at some other place — down at Phoenix, or down at Mesa, or at Florence. They have no guard- house on the reservation. Mr. Hensley. No guardhouse on the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Frank. No. The Chairman. I want to ask Charles a few more questions. Has it occurred to you, Charles, that the testimony that you and the other Indians give here will be sent to Mr. Coe at the reservation ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Sent where ? The Chairman. That the printed testimony of the Indians, that you have all given here, will be sent down to Mr. Coe at McDowell. Did you think of that ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir; I never thought of that, myself. The Chairman. The thought or fear that it might be done, and might perhaps do you some injury afterwards, has not affected your testimony here at all, has it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You did not think at all as to whether Mr. Coe would know what you said here, did you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Did you think of that? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. May be he think this way, I guess; if we here now, may be he will learn me something. That is what we think. The Chairman. You know everything you say is being printed ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Tliere is a copy of it at your elbow on the table [indicating]. Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. You have read some of it, have you ? 98240— No. 11—11 3 468 EXPENDITURES IN xxui iJMXJioiuH. ujdii-A±tiiviJ!iJN x. Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I suppose you know that copies of this testimony will be sent down to Mr. Coe at McDowell; did you think about that at all? Mr. Chabi.es Dickens. No, sir; I never think about that. The Chairman. So that in making statements before the committee you were not afraid at all that Mr. Coe would hear what you would say, or know it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I was not afraid; no, sir. If you want to send them down, you can send them down, and he can read them. The Chairman. No; I will not send them, but I assume that they wUl be sent. Mr. George. Anyliow. The Chairman. 1 presume the Indian Office will send them dovm there. I do not know whether they will or not. But that did not change your statements here at all, did it ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. The Chalrman. The fear that he would know what you said did not have any effect on you ? Mr. Charles Dickens. I could not answer, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Of course you know what the word "testify" means, do you not ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir, I do not know. The Chairman. Testifying means making a statement under oath, and you have been testifying in this matter. Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Now, were you afraid that what you swore to here would get to the agent ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, I was not afraid. The Chairman. And all that you have told us is just what you thought about these matters ? Mr. Charles Dickens. Yes. The Chairman. Now that I have mentioned it to you have you any fear that the agent may do something to you on account of what you have said here ? Mr. Charles Dickens. No, sir. The Chairman. That is all, CharUe. We are through with you and the other men now. Mr. George. We are very inuch obliged to you. (At 4 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned until Monday, June 19, 1911, at 10.30 o^clock a. m.) No. 12 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JUNE 19, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFITOE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HBNSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCaekon, Clerk. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. House of Representatives, Committee on Expenditures IN THE Interior Department, MoTiday, June 19, 1911. The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The following members of the committee were present: Messrs. Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, Mondell, and Cathn. The following other persons were present: SUas D. Whitman, Mr. E. G. Meritt, Taw clerK, Office of Indian Affairs, and Mrs. Helen Pierce Grey. The witness, Silas D. Whitman, was duly sworn by the chairman- STATEMENT OF SILAS D. WHITMAN, OF THE NEZPERCE INDIAN RESERVATION, IDAHO. The Chairman. Mr. Whitman, in order that it may go into our printed record, I will ask you some questions of a personal nature. What is your name ? Mr. Whitman. Silas D. Whitman. The Chairman. Where do you live ? Mr. Whitman. On the Nezperce Indian Reservation, Idaho. The Chairman. What is your business ? Mr. Whitman. Ranging and interpreting. The Chairman. When you say interpreting, for whom are you the interpreter ? Mr. Whitman. For the courts in the States of Idaho, Oregon, and Washington. The Chairman. Is that an official position? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; only when I am subpoenaed or asked to come. The Chairman. Do you get other pay than as a witness ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; sometimes. The Chairman. What pay do you get; what sort of pay as an interpreter? Mr. Whitman. $5 a day and expenses. The Chairman. How long have you been acting as an interpreter ? Mr. Whitman. Ever since 1904. The Chairman. Where did you get your education? Mr. Whitman. At the Indian school at Chemawa, Oreg. The Chairman. Is that a reservation school ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; it is a nonreservation school. That school was established in the year 1880, back in Oregon. The Chairman. How many years were you at school ? Mr. Whitman. Five years. 469 470 EXPENDITURES IN TJdE IJN Ti!iE.lU±i. imjAxij.! The Chairman. Have you studied for any profession? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Are you a lawyer? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. The Indians on that reservation are classified, are they not ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Into three classes ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And class 1 consists of those Indians who have been declared by the commission to be competent Indians? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What does the term "competent Indian" mean? Mr. Whitman. It means that they are capable of handling their own affairs; to do their own farming and their leasing, as they may want, and to receive their moneys from it at any time. They were trusted to make their living by themselves and to attend to their own affairs. The Chairman. Does that include both men and women? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Does it also mean that they have the right to do their own buying and selling? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; that is the way I understand it. The Chairman. Does it mean, further, that any money that the Government holds in trust for them ought to be paid to them? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And class 2 includes Indians of full a^e, that is, of legal age, who are not competent, or have not been declared to be competent, to handle their own business ? Mr. Whitman. That is the way they look at it. The Chairman. That is what that class includes ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Both men and women ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. But no voung children ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. No young children are included in class No. 2 ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Class 3, as I understand it, includes minors, or those under legal age, and very old people ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do these people in class 3 have to be incompetent from any other reason than old age or nonage, or is there a certain fixed age beyond which they come into class 3, regardless of their ability ? Mr. Whitman. It does not signify that they must be very old, but every gambler, or drunkard, or something of that sort, they are in No. 3. That is the way they are treated. The Chairman. Then, it is not old age alone that puts them in class 3 ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. So, with that explanation, I suppose that class 3 would mean boys and girls, not yet of age, and persons who are of age but have bad habits ? EXPENDITTJKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 471 Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Such as drinking and gambhng, or those who are spendthrifts in any way? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; that is the point. The Chairman. How many Indians on your reservation are in the first class ? Mr. Whitman. About 400. The Chairman. Competent ? Mr. Whitman Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you able to tell us whether there are more people in class 2 than in class 3 ? Mr. Whitman. There are more people in class 2 than in class 3. The Chairman. Could you give us any idea of how many more ? Mr. Whitman. I can not. , The Chairman. How many people are there on the reservation altogether ? Mr. Whitman. There are 1,473. The Chairman-. Then that would leave 1,073 people to be divided between class 2 and class 3 ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And there are more of them in class 2 than in class 3 « Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How was the classification made ? Mr. Whitman. Why, I suppose there were 9 men selected as com- missioners; these 9 men sat as a commission, and got the allotment records and the rolls, and whoever they determine — they saw the name and the family — and then they talked over that name, as to whether this man was competent to handle his own business and attend to his own affairs. Th Chairman. Let us begin back of that question. You say that 9 commissioners were chosen for the purpose of classifying them ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How were they chosen ? Mr. Whitman. The supervisor did it. The Chairman. Who was the supervisor who did that ? Mr. Whitman. Oscar H. Lipps. The Chairman. We are somewhat confused about the agents, supervisors, and superintendent. Did this supervisor have control of more than one reservation 1 Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What other reservations ? Mr. Whitman. He covers Montana, Washington, Idaho, and Oregon. The Chairman. Could he, having so large a territory, know the individuals on this reservation sufficiently well to choose the com- missioners ? Mr. Whitman. He was the Indian agent there before. For three or four years he was in charge there, and then he was promoted from that place, and the clerk he had under Mm, Mr. Sharpe, was appointed as superintendent. The Chairman. Do you know who authorized him to choose these commissioners ? Mr. Whitman. I do not know. 472 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. The Chairman. Whom did he choose ? Mr. Whitman. From the Indians ? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Whitman. Rev. James Hayes The Chairman (interposing). Is he a clergyman? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mark Arthur, Elder Felix Corbett, Elder Charhe Jackson, James Stewart, James Grant, and George Moses. The Chairman. If you do not recollect the others, just pass on from that. Was there any considerable objection to these iadi- viduals on the part of the tribe ? Mr. Whitman. There was. Mr. George. At the time they were appointed ? Mr. Whitman. After they were appointed. Mr. George. Immediately afterwards? Mr. Whitman. Right away, when their names were announced, and when the names were submitted to the Indian Office. The Chairman. What was the nature of the objection? Mr. Whitman. The objection was that these 9 men were mostly ministers of the gospel and elders also; and that they would not make a proper classification. Mr. Catlin. To whom was the objection made, to the Indian Office? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the reason the preachers could not make a proper classification as weU as laymen ? Mr. Whitman. They used personal friendship and enmity; who- ever they had a little feehng against they put them in the No. 2 class. The Chairman. Were they afraid that the members of their con- gregations would not fare better than the others ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. In the first place, when they sat down at the desk, they made the statement. They said, "We will postpone the classification until the 4th of July, at the camp ground, ana we wiU get all the people there." The camp ground was selected by the Presbyterian Home Mission, and they said, "We shall have con- trol of the whole tribe, and we shall have 10 days evangelistic meeting, and there we will have control of this thing; we will tell the Indians to join the church, and if they join the church, we will classify them asNo. 1." The Chairman. They were going to classify them as sheep and goats ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Was that a public statement ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; and James Grant, one of the members, told me about it, and that he objected to that move. Mr. George. How many of these nine men were Indians ? Mr. Whitman. All of them. Mr. George. All of them were Indians ? Mr. Whitman. All except James Stewart, and he was a quater- blood. Mr. MoNDELL. And the others were full-blood ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And all of them were members of that tribe ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 473 The Chairman. I understand you to say that the tribe was dis- satisfied with the manner of selection as well as with the persons selected. How did the tribe want the selections made? Mr. Whitman. They wanted to get together as a council and pick out their men — that is, men whom they thought would use their best judgment, and not use any friendship and not have any enmities — in order that they would classify them according to their actions in times past. The Chairman. When they meet ia council for that purpose, tell how they proceed to make the selections. Mr. Whitman. One of the men, George Moses, who died this spring just before I left, was considered the leading man and an honorable man. I and the others would always go to him and say, ' ' Here, send out notices to aU the districts and have them come to a certain place we can all meet." The Chairman. That is done by runners ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; we send messages, and then of course, they come. When we get together, we elect a chairman. The Chairman. Have you a council house ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How large a place is it ? How large is the meeting room? Mr. Whitman. It has a capacity of 300; that is, we rented it from a white man; we do not own it. We elect a chairman and a secre- tary who will write the proceedings of the council, and, if any money is to be contributed, we elect a treasurer, and elect committees. If the councU is postponed to a general meeting, we select committees from each district or precinct to scatter the notices. . The Chairman. In what language is the council conducted ? Mr. Whitman. Both in English and Indian. The Chairman. What do you mean by that ? Is there a translator or interpreter ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; there are a number who speak English better than I do, and when we come to argue a question we use English. The Chairman. In what language is the record kept by the secretary ? Mr. Whitman. In the English language. The Chairman. Is that Indian tongue a written language ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Can you write it ? Mr. Whitman. Not very good at all. The Chairman. Go on with the statement you were making as to how you tliink the commissioners should have been chosen. Mr. Whitman. The commissioners should have been chosen so that the Indians could have selected their own men, and then sub- mitted it to the Indian agent and superintendent, and if they should agree to the business, they should submit it to the Indian Office, and if it is approved, then it is legal. The Chairman. Now, tell us how that commission, chosen by the supervisor, made the classification, and what they did in making it? Mr. Whitman. They classified them, as I have said, into classes Nos. 1, 2, and 3, but some of the men that are placed in class No. 2 should have been in class No. 1. 474 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Is that your personal opinion, or is it the general opinion of the tribe ? Mr. Whitman. That is the general opinion. The Chairman. How did the nine commissioners determine who should go in class No. 1 or in class No. 2 ? Mr. Whitman. I do not know. The Chairman. Did they hear any evidence? Did they call on persons outside of their own members or consult them in any way? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. You say they had a list before them, and you called it the allotment; do you mean the roll? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; the roll. The Chairman. Was any outsider permitted to be present when they were doing this work ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Then how do you know, if you do know, in what manner they did it ? Mr. Whitman. I went around the agency office several times; I am there nearly every day ; I am called on at times and they ask me to do some interpreting for them. When I came around there they were not in the office. It was in the month of July or August and they were out under the trees in the shade. They had the desk out there, and one of the men came over to get a drink of water in the office. I said, "Do you allow people over there to listen?" and he said, "No, sir." The Chairman. Which one of the commissioners was that ? Mr. Whitman. James Grant, who stays in the office; he was sup- posed to be the judge to pass upon heirship matters. Mr. MoNDELL. In your opinion, were any names placed in class 1 that should not have been placed in class 1 ? Mr. Whitman. Well, I know one, one of the men Mr. MoNDELL (interposing). I do not know that it is necessary to name the man, but do you think that some were placed in class 1 who should not have been placed in class 1, that is, Indians whom you did not consider competent ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Mondell. Any considerable number ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir, quite a number of them. Mr. Hensley. What class were you put in? Mr. Whitman. I was not classified, but my wife was. I had my patent three or four years ago; I had a patent in fee given me four years ago, and I am beyond their reach. The Chairman. Are there many of them like you, who are beyond their reach ? Mr. Whitman. Very few. The Chairman. About how many ? Mr. Whitman. Seven or eight. Mr. Hensley. What does it require for one to reach the standard that you have reached ? What does it require of one to get beyond their reach ? Mr. Whitman. It requires that when an Indian gets his patent ia fee from the Government he is no longer under the Government, but he is a full citizen of the United States. He can do as he pleases with his allotment, but he must pay taxes upon his property. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 475 Mr. Hensley. He can sell his property if he elects to do so ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; if he wants to. The Chairman. How many of the nine commissioners were clergy- men? Mr. Whitman. Two of them. The Chairman. I mean in the broader sense; you said that they were preachers, elders, and ministers. Mr. Whitman. Two of them were preachers. The Chairman. I mean officers or the church and active church workers and churchmen. In other words, how many of them would you say were influenced in the work of classification by their church connections ? Mr. Whitman. Eight of them. The Chairman. Who was the lone star, that is, the one who was not a churchman ? Mr. Whitman. George Moses, and he died just before I left. Mr. Catlin. He did not die until the classification ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; he is the only one that did not appear on the classification. The Chairman. And of the four hundred — you have a four hun- dred out there — of the four hundred, how many were prominent and active in church matters, that is, the four hundred in class 1 ? Mr. Whitman. I do not know whether I have a record of that in my suit case. We had six Presbyterian churches. The Chairman. I want to see, if we can, how much, if anything, there is in your view of it that church connections counted for some- thing in the classification. Mr. Whitman. There is a majority of the Christian people there. The Chairman. But is it not true that those who are actively engaged with the church are the most competent Indians ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then there is nothing surprising in it, is there ? Mr. Whitman. They put some of these strong Christian workers in class No. 2, and some gamblers and drunkards in class one. Mr. Catlin. Your position is that they left out a number of church workers from class 1 and put them in class 2, when they should have been in class No. 1 ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Do they all belong to the same church ? Mr. Whitman. There are some Cathohcs and some Methodists. There is one Methodist Church. The Chairman. Is it your judgment, or is it the opmion of the people of the tribe, that some of these Christian Indians were left out because they were not the same kind of Christians as the commis- sioners ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that there was religious discrimination practiced ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It has been suggested to me that I ask this ques- tion, of the 400 Indians placed in class No. 1, to what particular church or religious demonination does the greatest number of them belong ? Mr. Whitman. To the Presbyterian Church. 476 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE BEPABTMENT. The Chairman. Are there any Methodists among the 400 ? Mr. Whitman. I do not think so ? The Chairman. Are there any CathoUcs among them ? Mr. Whitman. Very few of them. The Chairman. Was there any other denomination not represented in the board ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Is there no Episcopahan Church there? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; there are only the three denominations, i ' Mr. MoNDELL. Is it not true that the bulk of the Indians there are connected with the Presbyterians ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; there are six Presbyterian churches there. Mr. Catlin. There are three denominations represented there? Mr. Whitman. There are six Presbyterian churches, one Catholic church, and one Methodist church, or eight altogether. Mr. Hensley. Of the whole number of Indians, how many Pres- byterians are there ? Mr. Whitman. I can not tell you the number. Mr. Henslet. The majority of them? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; the majority of them are Presbyterians. Mr. Hensley. Which denomination comes next, the Methodist or Cathohc? Mr. Whitman. The Catholics. Mr. Hensley. The Catholics ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. The Methodists are the third on the list ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. And you say that a majority of the 400 selected and placed in class one are Presbyterians ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. And the next are the Cathohcs ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. And the next are the Methodists ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Of the three classes, those of the three denomina- tions are placed in class 1 , are they not ? Mr. Whitman. Some of them are in No. 1; such as the Cathohcs — I suppose a very few of them are in No. 1, and the rest are in No. 2, upon the grounds that these people do not observe the Sabbath as they ought to do, that they go to the races, that they go to the fruit fairs, and perhaps they may drink there — at least, that was the suspicion. Mr. Hensley. Is that a mere supposition that you have, or is it the general talk ? Mr. Whitman. It is common talk among the people. Mr. Hensley. Have you any idea of the number of Catholics in class No. 1 ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; but I know there is a number of them. Mr. Hensley. Ktave you ever talked with the Catholic commis- sioner, or one of the nine commissioners you spoke of? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; there is not any Catholic commissioner. Mr. Hensley. Were all the commissioners Presbyterians? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; all of them except George Moses. Mr. Hensley. What was he ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 477 Mr. Whitman. He did not belong to the church. The Chairman. What is your church connection ? Mr. Whitman. Presbyterian. Mr. George. I want to ask to what denomination did the com- missioner who died belong ? Mr. Whitman. He did not belong to any; he was a Presbyterian, but slipped back. Mr. George. That would have made it unanimous, then ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Catlin. So the Presbyterian Church was the only church rep- resented on that commission ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. In answer to my question awhile ago you referred to the manner in which one gets beyond the jurisdiction of the Indian Office, as you say you have done. I understood you to state that you have received a deed from the Government conveying the whole title to the land to you ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. What did you have to do in order to have the Gov- ernment to make you a title of that character, so as to put you in this independent class ? Mr. Whitman. I think the law was passed that any competent Indian can apply for a patent in fee simple through the superintend- ents; the Indian Office can act upon the question and if they find a sufficient recommendation and report from the superintendent that this Indian is competent to receive such title, then the patent was granted. Mr. Hensley. And he is discharged ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; discharged. Mr. Hensley. That is according to a statute in existence ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. It is also true that at the end of the trust period of 25 years, after allotments are made, the patent issues in fee, and then the Indian is free from his tribal relations ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr, MoNDELL. But the statute in question provides that he may be relieved earlier upon an inquiry into the question of his competency? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; that is the law. The Chairman. Mr. Meritt is here from the Indian Office, and hands me a letter written to you by Mr. Hauke, dated May 24, 1911, from which I read as follows: It is alleged in your letter of complaint that the majority of the nine men making said classification were either ministers of the gospel or elders of the church, and for that reason discriminated unfairly toward members of the church as against Indians who were not members of the church. Of the 411 granted the leasing privilege, 131 are not members of any church, 231 are affiliated with the Presbyterian denomination; 45 are Catholics, and 4 are dead. As the majority of the tribe are nominal members of the Presbyterian Church, there would naturally be a larger number of this denomination represented in the com- petent list. The office is convinced that in classifying members of the tribe the board of education conscientiously endeavored to carry out the instructions given it. A list containing the names of 62 members of the tribe, who heretofore were in class 2, has been submitted with a view of placing their names in class 1, and is now under consideration. Any Indian who believes that his classification does him an injustice, may, on a proper showing, make application through the superintendent's office to have it changed. Respectfully, (Signed) 0. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. 478 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. What do you say to that 1 Mr. Whitman. That is the answer given me. The Chairman. Have you any comment to make on that answer as to the facts stated in it ? Mr. Whitman. According, to that answer, I was not satisfied, because there has been many appUcations made through that super- intendent for patents in fee, which, according to my opinion, should be granted. I know these Indians are absolutely competent Indians, and instead of him making a proper report to send with the applica- tion he puts it down on the back of it and reports that these Indians are not competent, and according to their report Mr. Commissioner will have to take that report of the superintendent and deny the application. Mr. MoNDELL. Mr. Whitman, do you also state that some of the Indians in class 1 were not granted the rights and privileges that their classification entitled them to ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Did you take that matter up with the Indian Office also? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. What was the answer to that ? Mr. Whitman. Their answer was that these Indians could apply for $100 at any time, and if the $100 was granted and used properly, the next application could be a much higher amount of dollars; that he could apply for that, and that the Indian Office then, accord- ing to his report and recommendation could give him $500 or some sum of money not more than $500. Mr. MoNDELL. Then the classification in class No. 1, did not neces- sarily entitle those so classified to receive all moneys due them on demand ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; they only receive rents, but the money they derive from the sales of these inherited lands, they only get about $25 per month on that. Mr. MoNDELL. I understand that this board in making this clas- sification placed in class 1 those who, in their opinion, were entitled to receive their rentals ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Now, do you say that they did not receive all their rentals ? Mr. Whitman. I say they did, but the other moneys that amount to more than the rent they did not receive. This money comes from the sale of their lands, the 80 acres of land. Mr. MoNDELi,. Then, all who are in class 1 get their rentals? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELT.. But they do not get on demand all the moneys de- rived from the land sales? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; that is not given. The Chairman. I will read another paragraph from the letter from which I have just quoted: The list containing the names of 411 competent Indians who are authorized to lease their allotments without departmental supervision is generally and improperly referred to as class No. 1. Class 1 includes those who may be paid all their rentals at one time, when such rentals are received through the agency office. Rentals of classes 2 and 3 are deposited in bank to the credit of the allottees. j!iAjrjii-Ni/j.j.tmjii> .Lj., j.^ia ii, j.T3i.^i^„ DEPARTMENT. 479 Is that a correct statement ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; that is correct. The Chairman. You mentioned in your opening statement the case of your wife, who is in class 1, ancf who has sold her 80 acres of land? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; her inherited land. The Chairman. For $3,200? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And you complained that she can not get that money ? Where is that money ? Mr. Whitman. It is deposited at Lowman, Idaho. The Chairman. Do you know where it is deposited? Mr. Whitman. It is deposited at Lowman, Idaho. The Chairman. Who deposited it ? Mr. Whitman. The superintendent. The Chairman. How long ago ? When was the sale made ? Mr. Whitman. Last spring, a year ago. The Chairman. In what month ? Mr. Whitman. I think it was in the month of March, some time. The Chairman. And it brought $3,200 ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; the approval did not come back until the month of October. The Chairman. Is that money drawing interest ? Mr. Whitman. That is my understanding from the superintendent, that it is drawing 4per cent. The Chairman. For her benefit ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. ' The Chairman. Have you anything more than an understanding? Have you any knowledge about it ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Has any statement been made to you as to where the funds were ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you any certificate of deposit, or has your wife a certificate of deposit ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. You spoke about her sending to get some of this money; how much did she want to draw? Mr. Whitman. In the month of October, at the end of the month of October, Mrs. Whitman got sick with rheumatism, and my first thought was to take her to some hot springs. The Chairman. Where ? Mr. Whitman. In Oregon. The Chairman. You wanted to take her to these springs ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. So then, after we had waited for the approval The Chairman (interposing) . What approval ? Mr. Whitman. The sale of the land had to be approved. The Chairman. Then she could not sell it by and of herself ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. WTio had to approve it ? . Mr. Whitman. The commissioner. The Chairman. Do you mean the nine commissioners ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir ; the Indian Commissioner. 480 EXPENDIIUBES IN The Chairman. The sale was approved by him, was it? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Now, go on with what you are going to state. Mr. Whitman. In the month of October — the approval never came back until I wrote about it — I asked the commissioner to answer me immediately, and he did. Well, then, I said, "I would like to have $200 for my wife." They said, "You have got to do your business here," and of course that would bring me there, and I must have some expenses to meet. When I applied for the $200, my wife gave me a written statement, and I took it to the Indian agent, and the Indian agent said, "I will do that right away." I said, "I want to take my wife over to Oregon." It did not come until I wired about it the second time; I wired the Indian Office, and finally the. order came that she would have $200, on the strength of the fact that she was very sick. The Chaikman. When did that come ? Mr. Whitman. Somewhere along about the 15th of November. The Chairman. From whom did it come ? Mr. Whitman. That came direct from the Indian Commissioner. The Chairman. To whom did it come? Mr. Whitman. Direct to me and the Indian agent. The Chairman. And you got the money ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did she want other money out of that fund? Mr. Whitman. She did. The Chairman. When ? Mr. Whitman. Right soon after I wrote another letter for infor- mation as to how the money could be gotten from the depository. Instructions came to me from the Second Assistant Commissioner advising me that any Indian who has any funds in the depository can apply to the superintendent and ask for what sufficient money he requires; that if he shall show his want of it they could make appli- cation, with the recommendation of the superintendent, and that the Indian Office would take proper action. He wrote: "Therefore, I suggest you make application to the Indian agent, and through his report and recommendation the matter will be considered." So I took the letter direct, the same day, to the Indian agent or superin- tendent. He said, "What can I do for you, Air. Whitman ?" I said, " I want you to recommend this for Mrs. Whitman, that she be allowed to draw all of her money that belongs to her." The superintendent answered me and he says, "I will not do that; I can not allow that. I will ask for $500 and if she is granted that I will ask for some other amount." I said, "No; have you any authority to prevent you from making this application for the whole amount, and, if so, I want to see it." He laughed and smiled and I asked him to make this application. I said, "I want you to scratch your recommendation that Mrs. Whitman be allowed to withdraw her money in the deposi- tory and let her handle it as she wants to do," and he said, "Show rae the letter." So I pulled it out and handed it to him and he read it. He said, "Mr. Whitman, have you been writing to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs?" I said, "I have, and always do whenever I see sufficient grounds to write." He said to me, "Do you know any of them back there ?" I said, "I know Mr. Valentine, Mr. Hauke, and also I know Mr. James Allen, who is one of the officers in the ofiice." ^^•■^^s^^^^f^s^^^mmmmmmmmmK department. 481 He said, "Are they your friends?" I said, "That is the way they have been writing to me; they say 'Friend Whitman,' and you can see it right there, 'Friend Whitman.' " After that he said, "I will do my best and wiU send in an appHca- tion." I said, "I am going away and will be gone three weeks, and I want you to have that answer in three weeks' time, because, when a common man like me writes to them he can get an answer ia a week or two, and I loiow that they will answer you sooner than that, and you can get an answer in two weeks anyway." When I got back, I went over there, and they said, "No, sir; we have not heard." So, then, I left them, and I was gone three weeks, and then I returned. I went direct to the office and asked if the answer had come, and they said, "No," and they kept that up all winter. Mr. Catlin. Did you ask him whether he had written ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; and he said that he had the very day I demanded that he write. So, when I left, I said, "Have they answered yet?" He said, "I do not know what is the matter back there, but they have not answered yet." When I came here I inquired about it at the Indian Office, and they looked through the desks and pigeonholes, but could not find it. They could not find any appUcation sent in for Mrs. Whitman or Mr. Whitman for her, and many others were treated in the same way. Mr. MoNDELL. You could have made application direct to the Indian Office on behalf of Mrs. Whitman to be relieved of these disa- biUties « Mr. Whitman. No, sir; they said that it must go through the superintendent . The Chairman. Had you some particular reason or object in ask- ing for all of it? In other words, was there some investment that you wanted to make with it ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you mind stating what it was ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; what I was figuring on was that my wife wanted to remodel the house, which I built for her on the allotment. She wanted an additional room built to it, and then, of course, she wanted to help out my funds, and wanted to help me along in my business by buying a lot in town; we wanted to buy an office in town. I have my office in town, but I have no house there. The Chairman. How far from town do you live ? Mr. Whitman. Six miles. The Chairman. How much land have you in your own right ? Mr. Whitman. Eighty acres. The Chairman. How much does j^our wife own ? Mr. Whitman. Eighty acres, and then she had the inherited land. The Chairman. Has she other inherited land besides the 80 acres she sold ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Does your 80 acres and hers adjoin? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. You are living on her land ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What improvements are on it ? Mr. Whitman. There is a house on it, and a sufficient home for her. The Chairman. Is it a frame house ? 482 EXPENDITURES IN Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many rooms does it contain ? Mr. Whitman. Five rooms. The Chairman. How much famUy have you ? Mr. Whitman. Four children. The Chairman. Are they of school age ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir; two of them are. The Chairman. What school do they attend ? Mr. Whitman. The Fort Lapwai School, and my daughter attends the public school about 2 miles off. The Chairman. Is your wife a fuU-blood Indian ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is she educated? !Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where was she educated? Mr. Whitman. At the Fort Lapwai School. The Chairman. How many otners do you know who are in the same position as your wife? Mr. Whitman. There are several others, Kalip McLaughlia The Chairman (interposing). Have you any idea how much money altogether is held m trust that way ? Mr. Whitman. I have no idea. There was Charlie Hathmoon, he was denied money. Iklr. MoNDELL. How far is your allotment from that of your wife? Mr. Whitman. Sixty-five miles. Mr. MoNDELL. Are there any improvements on it ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. Mr. MoNDELL. Do you farm it? Mr. Whitman. No, sir, I have rented it out. I can not handle it at aU myself. Mr. Mondell. Is it rented to an Indian ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir; it is rented to a white man. All the im- provements I put in were on my wife's allotment. I built a bam on that allotment that cost me $500. Mr. Hensley. What improvements have you on your farm? Mr. Whitman. Houses. Mr. Hensley. How many houses ? Mr. Whitman. Nine. Mr. Hensley. Have you any cattle ? Mr. Whitman. I have none. Mr. Hensley. Have you any sheep or hogs ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. Do the Indians have any prejudice against hogs ? Mr. Whitman. No, sir. The Chairman. I understand that, as a rule, they do not raise them ? Mr. Whitman. They do at home. The Chairman. Have you any pastures in addition to the 80 acres of land you live on ? Mr. Whitman. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much range have you ? Mr. Whitman. We have the rough land for pasture. (Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned, subject to the call of the chairman.) No. 13 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF EEPEESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT JUNE 27, 1911 WASHINGTON 60VEKNMBNT PRINTING OFFICE ]B11 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jb., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HBNSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCakeon, Clerk. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. House of Eepbesentatives, Committee on Expenditures IN the Interiob Department, Tuesday, June '27, 1911. The committee met at 10 o'clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. The following members of the committee were present: Messrs. Graham (chairman), George, Hensley, and Catlin. The following other persons were present: Mrs. Helen P. Gray and E. B. Meritt. The witness, Hon. Ealph Henry Cameron, was duly sworn by the chairman. TESTIMONY OF HON. RALPH HENRY CAMERON, A DELEGATE IN CONGRESS FROM THE TERRITORY OF ARIZONA. The Chairman. Mr. Cameron, what is your full name? Mr. Cameron. Ralph Henry Cameron. _ The Chairman. You are the Delegate in Congress from the Ter- ritory of Arizona? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you lived in Arizona? Mr. Cameron. I went there in February, 1883. The Chairman. What part of the Territory is your home? Mr. Cameron. It is in the northern part, at Flagstaff, in Co- conino County. The Chairman. What business, if any, are you engaged in? Mr. Cameron. My business, outside of being down here, is mining. The Chaieman. How long have you been engaged in mining? Mr. Cameron. iSince 1887. The Chairman. Mining in Arizona? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what character of mining are you engaged ? Mr. Cameron. Copper, principally; but, of course, we are always looking for gold and silver and anything we can find. The Chairman. Are gold and silver usually found in connection with copper? Mr. Cameron. Sometimes; yes, sir. Gold is found there. The Chairman. In quantities tliat would pay for working it? Mr. Cameron. Some of our copper mines carry a good deal of gold and a good deal of silver. 483 484 bxpenditue.es in the interior department. The Chairman. Have you been lucky enough to own any of them? Mr. Cameron. I have copper mines that carry gold and silver both. The Chairman. In paying quantities? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In what part of the State are the mines, in which you are interested, located? Mr. Cameron. In Mohave County, and I have mines in Coconino County. The Chairman. How long have you been interested in mining there? Mr. Cameron. Since 1887 ; that was when I first started out pros- pecting, I think. The Chairman. I suppose you do your mining work in connection with others? Mr. Cameron. Well, some mines I run by myself, and in some I have others associated with me. The Chair3ian. Are they associated with you as partners or in a corporation ? Mr. Cajieron. No, sir; I have no corporation. I have partnerships where I have others associated with me. The Chairman. Do you mind telling the committee who are asso- ciated with you, Mr. Cameron? Mr. Cameron. I do not. It does not make any difference to me. My brother is one of my associates, and a man named L. L. Ferrell is also associated with me. The Chairman. Have you any personal interest in any irrigation works now? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; I do not remember ever being interested in anything that would be called an irrigation project. The Chairman. Were you familiar with an enterprise known as the Universal Irrigation Co., which was organized here some years ago? Mr. Cameron. No, sir ; I do not remember ever having heard of it. The Chairman. Of course, you are to some extent acquainted with the Territory in the neighborhood of the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Cameron. I can state to the committee that I know less about that section of the country than any other part of Arizona, for the reason that I have never had any business that would call me in there, and in my political trips throughout the Territory I never happened to go into that section. I have never been at McDowell. The Chairman. How near it have you been? Mr. CAaiERON. I have been at Roosevelt, Phoenix, and Globe, and in the country northeast of there. The Chairman. "What would be the usual way of going from Phoenix to Roosevelt? Mr. Cameron. I went to Roosevelt from Globe, but the route from Phoenix is out by the way of Mesa and Tempe. The Chairman. Is Roosevelt near the Roosevelt Reser'soir? Mr. Cajieron. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the country known as the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Cameron. I know the Salt River around Phoenix and down south of Phoenix in«some of that country, but I would not be an ex- EXPENDITUEBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 485 pert on the conditions of the soil or anything like that there. It has always been considered a good farming country. The Chairman. The only element lacking is water ? Mr. Cameron. That was the only thing lacking, and now that they have plenty of water the country is m a first-class condition. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the irrigation sys- tem there? Mr. Cameron. Only in a general way. I know of the irrigation systems^only in a general way in traveling through the country. The Chairman. We have some maps in evidence already, classify- ing the land there in three classes— that is, classes A, B, and C. Can you tell us what that classification means? Mr. Cameron. No, sir ; I can not. I can not tell you any more than I read in the decision that was issued by the court. I understand that A, B, and C means first, second, and third water rights, but, of course, that might not be correct. The Chairman. You refer to the opinion in the case of Hurley against Abbott, do you not? Mr. Cameron. I think that was the case. The Chairman. From that it would appear as if the lands of class A had the first right to the water, the lands in class B had the second right to the water, and the lands of class C the third right to the water ? Mr. Cameron. Well, Mr. Chairman, I do not believe I am qualified to give an opinion on that, because, as I have said before, I have not made any study of it, and naturally do not believe that I would do justice to myself to express an opinion, not having studied the case or gone into it thoroughly. The Chairman. What do you know, Mr. Cameron, as to the pres- ence of minerals in any of the mountain ranges in the Fort Mc- Dowell country? Mr. Cameron. I do not know anything of my own personal knowl- edge. I have heard that there were some minerals on the San Carlos Reservation, but I never have seen any minerals brought from there. Of course, there are minerals east of there, in the mountain district around Globe, but that is a good many miles from there. The Chairman. What class of minerals would you say, from your information, abound in the mountains of the San Carlos country? Mr. Cameron. It is all hearsay, but I have heard them speak of gold and some copper. That would be a region east of there, over the Gila River, around Fort Thomas and Geronimo, in that section of the country. The Chairman. How far away from Fort McDowell? Mr. Cameron. According to a rough estimate, I should say 100 miles. The Chairman. Do the mountains extend from the neighborhood you speak of all the way to the McDowell country ? Mr. Cameron. Well, there is a mountain range all the way from the southern part of the Territory up to the northern part. It is broken up in places, but these mountain ranges extend clear through the country. The Chairman. Does your experience in mining matters enable you to have an opinion as to the continuity of minerals in mountain ranges ? Are the minerals apt to extend as far as the range does, or 486 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. are the minerals apt to be found only in some particular locality in the range? Mr. Cameron. In most of the mountain ranges of Arizona there are more or less minerals. The Chairman. Have you taken any interest in the coal question there? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know anything about where the coal may be found there? Mr. Cameron. Only from what I have read in reports of the Geo- logical Survey. There is coal up in the Navajo Reservation. I have seen coal on the Navajo Reservation ; that is, outcroppings of it. The Chairman. What is the grade of the coal ? Mr. Cameron. I should judge that it is soft coal. The Chairman. Have you had much experience with the reserva- tions in your Territory? Mr. Cameron. Well, no, sir; I have had very little. Of course, we have a good many reservations, but I have never had any business to amount to anything that would bring me in contact with them. The Chairman. Have you given any thought to the question of whether or not the Indians should be kept on reservations or scattered out among the people, and let them go where they would, or with reference to the policy of dealing with them generally ? Mr. Cameron. Well, I have had, as I said before, but very little experience with that. We had some experience up in our county with the Navajos. That was on the west side of -the Navajo Reservation, or a small strip of land on the Colorado River. But that is prac- tically the only experience I have ever had with the Indians. The Chairman. Did that experience enable you to form any opin- ion as to the wisdom, or practical wisdom, of moving the Indians from one reservation to another? Have you any opinion on that subject ? Mr. Ca jiERON. I will state that the conditions throughout the Terri- tory have been such that it would be pretty hard for anyone, without an accurate knowledge of all the conditions on the different reserva- tions, to make a statement that would be justifiable. The conditions in the north are very much different from the conditions in the south. In the north we have very little farming land, and I under- stand that in the south there is a good deal of farming land on a number of reservation?. The Chairman. Have you any opinion that you would care to express generally on the question of the advisability of moving In- dians from one place to another, especially if they are contented and satisfied where they are? Mr. Cameron. That is a matter I have always thought the depart- ment should handle, and I have not had an}' reason to mix in it one way or the other and do not believe I am qualified to speak on the subject, and I do not feel justified in answering your question, be- cause I do not believe I could do it intelligently. The Chairman. Is the country known as the White Mountain land near any of the places you have referred to? Mr. Cameron. The White Mountains are in Apache and Navajo Counties mostly. What is known as the Great White Mountains are in both of these counties. That is a mountainous country, and some EXPENDITUKifiS IN TUJi IJN xjiB.iun DEPABTMENT. 487 of the elevations run up to 8,000 feet. I do not know of any Indians on any irrigation streams there, because most of that country is adapted to dry farming in the mountains. The Chairman. What is the character of that country with refer- ence to the minerals produced there? _ Mr. Cameron. Well, of course, there is, on ihe reservations, very little prospecting done, because we are not allowed to mine there. The Chairman. But what is the character of the country with ref- erence to minerals being there? Mr. Cameron. I can not say; I suppose there are minerals there. The only thing I know about minerals on the reservation is hearsay. I have not spent any time there prospecting, and naturally I am not posted on what might be there. _ The Chairman. Was not some of that White Mountain Eeserva- tion sold or given away to white settlers? Mr. Cameron. I do not think any of the White Mountain was. There may have been, I can not say. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge on that subject? Mr. Cameron. Nothing definite ; no, sir. The Chairman. Have you any information on the subject? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; I have no information. The Chairman. You said you had no definite knowledge? Mr. Cameron. I have no knowledge of it ; I will make it positive. The Chairman. On page 33 of the Keport of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs for 1910, the middle paragraph reads as follows : Special Allotting Agents William Williams, George A. Keepers, William M. Peterson, and Ralph Aspaas have been engaged in mailing allotments to Indians on the public domain in Arizona and New Mexico, under the provisions of the fourth section of the general allotment act of February 8, 1887 (24 Stat., 3SS), as amended by the act of February 28, 1891 (26 Stat., 794). Mr. Aspaas has made tentative allotments to some 515 Indians of the Papago Tribe in Pima and Pinal Counties, Ariz. Mr. Williams made tentative allotments of 15 acres each to 333 Indians under the jurisdiction of the Fort Mojave Indian school, Arizona. The allotments were made originally In this area, owing to the fact that there is a prospect of furnishing water to the Indians with which to Irrigate their land. Mr. Keepers has made tentative allotments to 705 Indians on the public domain in Arizona, south of the Moqui Eeservation. Former Special Alloting Agent William M. Peterson completed allotments to some 363 Indians in the vicinity of HoucIj, Ariz., south of the extension to the reserva- tion, by executive orders of November 9, 1907, and January 28, 1908. Do you know of this ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Or any of that ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; it is not in the district where I live, and I have no personal knowledge of it. What I know is all hearsay. They have been allotting Indians in the eastern part of the Ter- ritory, and south of Moqui Reservation around Holbrook — I judge around there. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the extension of the Navajo Eeservation? Mr. Cameron. It was extended several years ago, and a few years ago there was another extension made, but I do not know of any lately. The Chairman. Do you know what was the reason for this ex- tension ? Mr. Cameron. The first extension, I think, was brought about by the differences between the stock men in our county and the Navajos 488 EXPEN0ITUKBS IN j.xiji lisxffiiinjtt UJii-AJiTiVlJliJNT. that were on the reservation, on the east side of the little Colorado Eiver. At that time they made the river the dividing line, so that there would be a defined line for the Indians and the white men to respect. That is the only reason that I know of. The Chairman. What was the object of the extension, do you know? Was it to eliminate the stockmen from that part of the country to which the reservation was extended ? Mr. Cameron. It was rather an agreement between the stockmen and the representatives of the Indians; that is, the Indian agent, It was done so there would be no trouble in the future from the mix- ing of stock, and so that the Indians on one side of river would know their line and the cattlemen and sheepmen on the other side would know their side of the line. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of any attempt later on to force the Indians from the older part of the reservation to the extension part of it? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; none that I know of. The Chairman. Do you know whether there was such an attempt? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the question of min- erals on the reservation ? Mr. Cameron. Well, nothing of my own personal knowledge. I have never seen any of the minerals on that reservation. As I stated before, I have heard that there is mineral on the reservation, but I have never been to it. The Chairman. What do you understand to be the character of the minerals there? Mr. Cameron. The character is about the same as Arizona carries; that is, gold, silver, and copper, such as is found in all the different sections of the mountainous regions of Arizona. The Chairman. To what extent do you know the Apache Eeser^ vation ? Mr. Cameron. Very little. I have been over some parts of it. I have been over the Moqui Reservation, and I have been over some parts of the Yuma Reservation. The Chairman. Have you made an official trip over there? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you ever been over there with Mr. Hitch- cock? Mr. Cajieron. I have been across the reservation, but not in an official capacity; I have been on the Apache Reservation, but not in an official capacity, simply on a hunting trip. The Chairman. Who was with you? Mr. Cameron. You have referred to Mr. Hitchcock. Mr. Hitch- cock made the trip across the reservation with me two years ago. The Chairman. Was anyone else with you? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; Col. Cecil Lyons, of Texas; my secretary, and Mr. Clark, of Holbrook, and we had a couple of young fellows from around Taylor with us, but I have forgotten their names. I can get their names for you if you wish me to do so. The Chairman. Where did you go on that occasion ? Mr. Casieron. We rode from Holbrook and went across to Fort Apache, and from Apache to Globe on that trip. Last year we attended the Moqui snake dance. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 489 The Chairman. Was Mr. Hitchcock with you then? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; and there were probably two or three hundred people there. S^^ z?^"^"^^^^^'' ^^^^ ''^y °^^^^ officials from Washington there? ,T^i- ^™^°^- '^^^ ^" ^^^^ P^'^^^y- The Assistant Secretary of War, Mr. Oliver, was there, and a company of soldiers. •'^^^L^^^^^^^^'^" ^^^^ y"" ?°^^ '^'^^^ ^^^^ P^^^ o^ the Territory with Mr. JSfewell or Mr. Davis in connection with irrigation matters? Mr. Cameron. No; I never have with Mr. Newell or Mr. Davis. I have with Mr. Parker at one time. The Chairman. The Mr. Hitchcock to whom I referred is not the Mr. Hitchcock who was the Secretary of the Interior, but the present Postmaster General. Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; I understand. The Chairman. Did you have any conversation with him in refer- ence to the establishment of a post office at McDowell ? Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Do you know anything about the movement to establish a post office there? Mr. Cameron. Not to my personal knowledge. The Chairman. What do you know of it in any way? Mr. Cameron. In no way. The Chairman. You said, " to my personal knowledge." Mr. Cameron. I do not know anything about it. The Chairman. Did you have any information that there was a movement of that sort on foot at one time ? Mr. Cameron. I have not heard of it. The Chairman. Can you tell us, Mr. Cameron, in a general way, what the law is with reference to water rights? _ Mr. Cameron. Well, we have laws in the Territory which are con- sidered valid until otherwise changed by Congress. Under the Terri- torial law a person has a right to water, under the water regulations, by filing on the amount of water he is permitted to take, and by filing with the recorder of the county in which the water is located. The Chairman. What is a miner's inch of water? Mr. Cameron. There is a good deal of speculation on that. The Chairman. The courts refer to it, and the term is employed in the decrees as indicating a fixed quantity. In the decree of Judge Kent it is applied to water. Mr. Cameron. As I said before, a miner's inch is a speculative proposition for engineers, and it can not be definitely stated what a real miner's inch is. For instance, I have a couple of springs that flow about 325,000 gallons of water every 24 hours, and that is con- sidered about 20 miner's inches. That is the way we figure it. The Chairman. 325,000 gallons? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Every 24 hours? Mr. Camerok. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And that is equal to how many miner's inches ? Mr. Cameron. About 20. Mr. George. Does it mean so many inches really ? Mr. Cameron. We have to measure the stream, of course; we measure the flow of the stream and the engineers figure out how many inches there are. 490 EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEKIOE DEP.\ETMENT. Mr. George. What is the unit of speed of which you measure the flow? Mr. Cameron. I am not posted well enough to tell you. I can get these things figured out for you and let you have it definitely, if you yould like to have it. The Chairman. Well, we will have to learn from some one about miner's inches. Mr. Cameron. Well, water is figured in several different ways. and it is very seldom that you can find two engineers who figure it the same way. That has been my experience. The Chairman. The term was used in a decree of the court, which would haA e to be enforced specifically, and we supposed that it was a fixed and ascertainable quantity. Mr. Cameron. It would be pretty hard to ascertain the exact amount of flow in any stream unless it was done by the Govermnent. Most people who come out and locate water, locate it approximately. If they state a definite amount in their location, they would be entitled to that amount, but if the amount of water should be greater than that stated, somebody else would be entitled to it. It is a good deal like locating a lode claim, which is 20 acres and no more. When you take up your claim you will do it, ordinarily, without measuring the claim — that is, 1,500 feet long and 600 feet wide. MoS men are sure to get enough, but when the survey is made and they find that you have too much in the claim, they set your monuments in to make it 20 acres and no more, but if you have not the 20 acres you can set your stakes out anywhere to make up the 20 acres. The Chairman. Now, as to the water question : Suppose a settler locates on a river and constructs a canal from the river to his land and takes from the river enough water to irrigate his land. Can anyone afterwards interfere with his right to that much water or take it away from him in any way ? Mr. Cameron. Well, the conditions, so far as my knowledge goes, are that if you have the prior location on this stream, and you make a location for a definite amount of water that you are to use in your location, after you have made your filing and complied with all the requirements, unless some one has a prior right above you on the stream, you would be entitled to it, but if some one had a prior right above you on the stream, and the amount of water you had filed on did not come down the stream so you could get your amount of water, or the amount that you had filed for, I believe the man above you would have a preferred right, provided he was on there in good faith and had lived up to the requirements of the law. The Chairman. Now, A^'hen you speak of the man higher up the stream having a prior right, does that priority of right relate to his position on the stream? Mr. Cameron. It relates to the time he made his location of the water. The Chairman. Suppose a settler came on the stream after you did, and located higher up the stream, could he take water for his land to the detriment of your water supply? Mr. Cameron. I do not think so. Mr. Catlin. Can not a man get as much water as he wants? Mr. Cameron. Provided he can show he has a use for the water. A man would have to comply with the law and regulations that gov- ern water rights. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 491 Mr. George. Suppose the amount of water is limited? This man with the prior claim would take the water, and if any remains, then the others would take it? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir ; that is my construction of the water-right laws of our Territory. Mr. George. And that applies generally throughout the Territory ? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Are these laws enacted by the Territory? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; they are Territorial laws. All our laws are subject to approval by Congress, but unless they are disapproved, they stand approved. We have the same rights that they have in any other State, except that Congress has the power of approval or disapproval. For instance, when we pass a law in our legis- lature, it is signed by the governor. Then, if that law should be taken up to Congress within two years — I think that is the time fixed by Congress — and it should be determined by Congress and the President of the United States that that law was not what it should be, they could disapprove the action of the Territorial legislature. Mr. George. Does that principle apply to any land you know of— that is, the principle of prior rights in water, as you have explained them? Mr. Cameron. I have no controversy over water rights. Mr. George. So, naturally, the question never has come up with you? Mr. Cameron. I am speaking generally of what I know of condi- tions in the Territory and what has been the situation for a good many years. It was a question with the men who went in there first to develop the country — that is, it was considered that they ought to have a prior right not only in water rights, but in all other rights, so far as they complied with the law. The Chairman. Do you own any of this land, Mr. Cameron ? Mr. Cameron. Not one acre. I tried to at one time, but lost out, and have not had any since. The Chairjian. You have not been brought into any practical con- tact with the irrigation law there — that is, jDersonal contact ? Mr. Cameron. No ; I have not had any experience personally. The Chairman. Are the laws of the Territorj^ as they exist at the present time considered satisfactory? Mr. Cameron. I think they are in most cases. I suppose in all communities that have contests on adverse claims, as you might call them, there are people who think the laws are not right, the same as in any other line of business. The Chairman. If I mistake not, you have yourself introduced a bill on that subject in Congress? Mr. Cameron. I did introduce one, but I expect to introduce an- other bill after I have given the matter more study. The Chairman. What was the defect which your bill was intended to remedy? Mr. Cameron. The bill which I have introduced was sent to me, and I introduced it by request. The Chairman. At the request of whom ? Mr. Cameron. Well, I could not say now who sent the bill to me; to tell you the truth; but I could look up that matter, and insert it in the record, if you would like to have it. 492 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAETMlfiNT. The Chairman. Was it by some one interested in the irrigation projects? Mr. Cameron. I think not ; if I remember right. It came up more than anything else, over the controversy in the suit that was pending, that you have already referred to in Judge Kent's decision. The CuAiEaiAN. What was it intended to accomplish with reference to that decision? Mr. Cameron. I could not say. The Chairman. Have you a copy of it handy ? Mr. Cameron. I suppose there is a copy of it in the record. I do not think I have a copy of it in the office. The Chairman. Do you mean in the Congressional Record? Mr. Cameron. In the document; but I will say frankly that I did not go into the bill personally, myself. The Chairman. Before you presented it, did you have a conference with those parties or any one of them ? Mr. Cameron. Not on the bill, no. That bill is like a lot of other bills. It was sent to me, and I was asked to introduce it; and I did it simply because it was a request from my constituents. The Chairman. Do you recall whether it was an individual or an association of water users? Mr. Cameron. No; it was not any association of water users. In fact, I am positive it was an individual, and I would be very glad to tell you the name, but I can not state it positively, and I do not want to state anything that I can not state positively. The Chairjian. We think the decision of Judge Kent points to a matter the committee is interested in, and we would like to have all the information we could on any legislation intended to change the situation, as indicated by the judge's opinion and decree. Mr. Cameron. I would be very glad, Mr. Chairman, to give you any information I have or had ; but the decision of Judge Kent was arrived at, I suppose, after a good many months' study, and I notice it is left open, so that they can appeal from the decision. So I would not attempt to discuss his decision, because, as I said before The Chairman. No; I would not expect that, Mr. Cameron, but ■ rather to get at the purpose of this bill, which was aimed more or less at the condition developed by this decision. Mr. Cameron. I will tell you, Mr. Chairman, that I do not think any bill that would be introduced at this time could have any appli- cation to what had already taken place. It would only change the conditions from the time it became a law, if it should become a law, for the future. Of course all of our locations that have been made in the Territory have been made under our laws, and I do not think a bill at this time could change any locations that have been made, or the conditions. The Chairjian. Have you any idea how the bill, if it became a law, would affect existing conditions? Mr. Cameron. I am sorry to say I have not. I wish I could give you this information that you are seeking, because I would be glad to do so, if I could. The Chairman. You know, Mr. Cameron, I presume, of the Board of Missions, which is doing quite a good deal of work among the Indians down there? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 493 Mr. Cameron. Oh, I have heard of them quite frequently ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Well, have you had any relations personally with the board? Mr. Cameron. None whatever. The Chairman. You have not had anything to do with this pro- posed legislation? Mr. Cameron. No, sir; nothing whatever. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of any mining permits being issued to white men to locate on Indian lands in the Territory ? Mr. Cameron. I have not. I have tried to get locations, but I have always been turned down, not only on Indian reservations but on Government military reserves. The Chairman. Do you know of any land there now, or in the past, a part of an Indian reservation, which it was proposed to turn back to the public domain? Mr. Cameron. No; I do not know that I do. The Chairman. Have you any personal knowledge of the Indians being moved off the reservations, as, for instance, the Pimas being moved to other lands than their original reservations? Mr. Cameron. I have no knowledge of it; no. The Chairman. Do you know of any threatened lawsuits on ac- count of moving the Indians from their reservations? Mr. Cameron. Do I know of any such lawsuits? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Cameron. No, sir. The Chairman. Have you ever heard that the Pimas in the Salt Eiver country have talked of bringing suit against the Government for damages, on account of removal from their reservation to land outside the reservation? Mr. Cameron. No ; I do not believe I have. The Chairman. You never heard of it? Mr. Cameron. I might have heard something about it, but I could not say that I have even heard of a lawsuit. The Chairman. Have you any opinion on the question as to the Government's liability in the case? Mr. Cameron. I do not believe I am qualified to make any state- ment, Mr. Chairman, on that. The Chairman. You are a lawmaker? Mr. Cameron. Yes; but a man generally studies those questions when they come up to him, and he does not anticipate them. I never anticipate crossing a bridge until I get to it. The Chairman. Mr. Cameron, do you know of any matters re- lating to Indian affairs in your Territory that you think you should tell the committee about? Mr. Cameron. I do not believe I can give this committee any enlightenment on the conditions of Indian affairs in our Territory, Mr. Chairman; because, as I have stated to this committee, it is a matter that I have not given any study to, to speak of. You might say I have given it no study. Those affairs have always been handled through the department here at Washington. In the sec- tion of the country where I live, we have had nothing to do with them, and have had very little cause to complain, because most of the Indians up there have been kept on the reservation. Of course, 494 EXPENDITURES IN TjtLJJi IJN rjSitiUJtt tHiJ^AWXiViJSJN X. as I mentioned before, we had a little difficulty at one time several years ago ; but in recent years everything has been very satisfactory. The Chairman. I believe you said that you are not personally familiar with the Verde River country ? Mr. Cameron. No; I am not The Chairman. Have you ever been on the Verde ? Mr. Cameron. Yes ; I have been on the upper part of the Verde, at old Camp Verde, and in that section of the country. I have been on the Verde River where it is all boxed up, and down at Salt River. I suppose the Salt River empties in about there. I think that is about the only section of Arizona that I must confess I am not pretty well acquainted with. The Chairman. What do you mean by " all boxed up "? Mr. Cameron. After you leave just below Camp Verde, a few miles, it goes into a box canyou, a rather rough, broken country, somewhat on the order of the Grand Canyon, only it does not come out on the level until a good ways below that. The Chairman. At the point where you do know it, how much of a stream is it? Mr. Cameron. Well, it is just like all other Arizona streams. I have seen it at times when it looked as big as the Potomac River. At other times you can easily ford it or wade it. It fluctuates accord- ing to the rainfalls and snows in the moxmtains. The Chairman. Did you ever see it dry? Mr. Cameron. No; I never did. The Chairman. You have seen a good many other Arizona rivers dry? , Mr. Cameron. Well, I never saw the Verde dry, because the place I have been on the Verde has been up near the head of it. I have seen the Gila River dry. I have seen the Salt and Gila Rivers below Phoenix, where there was no water running. The Chairman. What would have become of the water of the Verde when the Gila was dry? Mr. Cameron. I can explain that to you. You take most of the streams that we have in Arizona, outside of the Colorado River, which is the only stream, with the possible exception of the White and Black Rivers over the White Mountains — I do not know that they ever go dry. The Little Colorado, for instance, will be running up at Winslow and down at the old Tanner Crossing, where we cross up into Utah, I have seen the river dry there a number of times; and then you go farther below, where the Verde strikes bedrock again, and it will be up to your waist in a box canyon ; so it sinks into quick- sand and rises when it comes to bedrock. The Chairman. I suppose you are familiar with the fact that for several years past the water of the Verde has been run out for irri- gation purposes? Mr. Cameron. Oh, I suppose it is; because most of the irrigation has been around Phoenix, and the Salt River empties into the Verde above there. The Chairman. It is not an unusual thing for rivers which are drawn on for irrigation purposes to be dry below the irrigation projects ? Mr. Cameron. Well, in Arizona it is not unusual for a river to be dry, at some part of it, anyhow, excepting those three rivers. Of EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 495 course, the. Big Colorado River, as we call it, never goes dry, and at this season of the year it is at a great height on account of the snows melting in Utah. The Chairman. Do you know of any sugar-beet raising in your Territory ? Mr. Cameron. I know of it around Phoenix. There is a sugar plant there ; but I have never been to the plant. The Chairman. Do you know where they get the beets from which to keep the plant going? Mr. Cameron. They own a good many acres of land there them- selves — that is, I understand they do — and I understand the farms around there supply them with the beets. The Chairman. That would be from the Salt River irrigation project? Mr. Cameron. Yes, sir; it is all along that project, as far as I know. The Chairman. Of course, not knowing the McDowell country, you can not express any opinion, of your own at least, as to whether it is adapted to beet raising or not? Mr. Cameron. I can not say. As I have said before, I have never been to Fort McDowell. The Chairman. Nor to Verde, either ? Mr. Cameron. Well, as I have said, I have been to Phoenix and Tempe and Mesa and over to Roosevelt, but I have never been at Fort McDowell or up in that section. The Chairman. Of the places you mentioned, I suppose Mesa would be closest to Camp McDowell ? Mr. Cameron. I suppose it would be, on account of the contour of the country there. I suppose Mesa would be the nearest place. The Chairman. Well, Mr. Cameron, if there is any matter that occurs to you that you think tends to enlighten the committee as to the Indian conditions there, we would be glad to hear it. Mr. Cameron. I would be very glad to do it. I am frank to say that I am not in a position to give much information. I am sorry to say that I am not better posted on the irrigation lands in Arizona than I am, but, as I have said before, I have not had any business connections with those lands, and, naturally, I would not have any cause to go into that matter. Mr. Catlin. Have you ever heard any complaint on the part_ of the Indians about the way their reservations out there are being managed by the Indian Department? Mr. Cameron. I have never talked with the Indians on that ques- tion at all. I do not think I have talked with an Indian, any more than to say " hello " to him, for a number of years. I do not live in the section of the country where we have Indians. They only come in there to trade or something like that. There are not any Indians around the section of the country where I live. Mr. George. How about this' beet-sugar industry? How large is it? What is the size of this factory ? Mr. Cameron. I do not know what the capacity of the plant is. I know that they only run certain months in the year, because, as I un- derstand it, they do not have beets enough to keep the factory going. Mr. George. Is it an old factory? 496 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DBPAETMENT. Mr. Cameron. No; it is a new factory. It has been built only a few years, and I think it has only been running about two seasons. Mr. George. Is it an independent concern? Mr. Cameron. I could not tell you, sir. Mr. George. You could not tell? Mr. Cameron. No. Mr. George. Are there any other factories in the State ? Mr. Cameron. None that I know of. Mr. George. Are these Phoenix people that are running it? Mr. Cameron. I could not tell you as to that. There may be Phoenix people interested in it, but I don't know. I think it was built by outside people. That is my understanding, but that may not be correct. Mr. George. Well, what outside people? Mr. Cameron. People from some other State came in there, as I understand it, but I am not sure as to that. Mr. George. Do you know what State they came from? Mr. Cameron. I do not. Mr. George. You did not get any impression? Mr. Cameron. No; for the simple reason that I have never had any business connection with them. I am pretty busy with my own affairs, and naturally have not had any occasion to look into the matter. Mr. George. What do you understand to be the capacity of the Indians for farming? Do you regard the Indian as a good farmer? Mr. Cameron. Well, from what I have seen of them, I would not regard them as such ; but, as I said before, I do not know that I am qualified to say whether they are the average farmer or not. I do not think they are. Mr. George. But you have seen them working in the mines? Mr. Cameron. Very few Indians work in the mines, if any. We do not have the Indians work in the mines at all. Sometimes they have done outside work, but there are very few of them at that. Mr. George. About the mines, rather than in the mines? Mr. Cameron. Yes ; they would not have them in the mines at all, and they do not use Indian labor in or about the mines, as a usual thing. Mr. George. But they do up at Camp Verde and about there? Mr. Cameron. Camp Verde is not a mining country. There is some prospecting out there, and some Indians live at Camp Verde across the river, on the river banks. Mr. George. I thought we had some testimony about the Mc- Dowell Indians going up to that general territory. Mr. Cameron. You did not get that from me. Mr. George. No; from the Indians themseh^es. Mr. Cameron. That might be, because I don't get down in that territory very often. Mr. Hensley. There is testimony of that kind in the record — that they go from that reservation to mining concerns and work for them. Mr. Cameron. The work that they would do, I should think, would be on the outside — building roads and trails and something like tha|;- I do not know of their working in the mines. Mr. Hensley. What is the name of this sugar-beet company that you speak of? EXPBNDITTJBES IN THE INTBRIOK DEPARTMENT. 497 Mr. Cameron. I could not tell j'ou that. I do not know what the name of the company is. Mr. Hensley. They are located near Phoenix, you say ? Mr. Cameron. I think it is about 4 or 5 miles out from Phoenix. Mr. Henslet. About how extensive is it ? Mr. Cameron. Oh, it is small ; it is not what I would call a large plant. I do not know what the capacity is. Mr. Hensley. You are not acquainted with any of the people that comprise the company ? Mr. Cameron. I have met the superintendent and general manager on the train one time, but I never had any conversation with him other than to pass the ordinary courtesies when I was introduced to him. That is the only man that I know of that I ever met who is connected with that company. Mr. Hensley. Where is your home? Mr. Cameron. Flagstaff. Mr. George. That is at the south of the Territory ? Mr. Cameron. No ; it is away up north, up on the Santa Fe, away in the mountains — a mile-high city. Flagstaff is in Coconino County. Mr. George. What county? Mr. Cameron. Coconino County. Mr. Catlin. That is where you start to go into the Grand Canyon ? Mr. Cameron. No; you go out now from Williams, 34 miles far- ther west. The Chaikman. "N^Tiat is the meaning of that word " mesa" ? I see it used in connection with a great many names of places. Mr. Cameron. It is a land that is higher than the bottom lands. Mr. George. It is a plateau? Mr. Cameron. It is a plateau. It is up high. Mr. George. This lady says it is the Spanish word for table. Wliat is the population of Arizona now ? Mr. Cameron. Two hundred and four thousand. Mr. George (after examining map). It looks to me as though Flagstaff was in the central portion of the State. Mr. Cameron. There is only one town above us. Mr. George. The population lies mainly south of you ? Mr. Cameron. Yes. Mr. George. You have been out there 28 years ? Mr. Cameron. I went there in 1883. The Chairman. I do not think of anything else which I wish to ask Mr. Cameron. Mr. Cameron. Here is where I live [indicating on map]. The Chairman. Unless some of the members of the committee wish to ask you some questions, Mr. Cameron, that is all. We are much obliged to you. Mr. Cameron. Well, if you need me for anything else, I will be glad to come back at any time. The Chairman. Do you know if any of the other gentlemen are here, Mr. Meritt? Mr. Meritt. Mr. Thackery is here. I can get him on the tele- phone. Mr. Coe telegraphed that he left Saturday night. The Chairman. Yes ; I have a letter in the office to that effect. 98240— No. 13— 11 2 498 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPAKTMENT. Mr. Meritt. We wrote him a letter at Philadelphia, but he has not shown up in the office as yet. He is attending the Baptist con- vention there. The Chairman. We will hear Mr. Thackery after lunch. We will now adjourn until 1.30 o'clock this afternoon. (Whereupon, at 12.05 o'clock p. m., a recess was taken until 1.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The committee met, pursuant to the taking of recess. TESTIMONY OF FKANK A. THACKERY. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. Your full name is Frank A. Thackery? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where do you reside? Mr. Thackery. I have been residing at Shawnee, Okla. I am just now moving to California. The Chairman. What is your occupation now ? Mr. Thackery. Supervisor of Indian schools, of what is known as the second district. The Chairman. What does that district comprise? Mr. Thackery. California, Arizona, and Nevada. The Chairman. What are the duties of the supervisor? Mr. Thackery. I have general supervision over all Indian school work of the different districts. The Chairman. And, in a practical way, what does he actually do? How does he spend his time? Mr. Thackery. He visits all of the Indian schools of his district at least twice a year, and oftener if some special matter arises necessi- tating his going to any one of the schools. During those visits he inspects carefully every department and is supposed to enthuse the employees to do the best possible work in the different departments, to organize them systematically, and to suggest and install new methods of education. The Chairman. When he visits one of the schools, about how long does he remain with it? Mr. Thackery. Well, I would like to say here, before going fur- ther, that I have been a supervisor only since the 15th of this month. Prior to that I was superintendent of an agency in Oklahoma. So that my experience as a supervisor is somewhat limited. I know in a general way, however, what the duties of a supervisor are. The Chairman. Then, from your knowledge, gained otherwise than by experience, tell us about it. Mr. Thackery. A supervisor on his usual rounds to the different schools would stay at one school possibly from one to three weeks, in order to visit the school which is ordinarily located at headquarters; then, any day schools that might be under that jurisdiction. Some of the Indian superintendencies comprise quite an extent of territory, many of which take in all or part of four or five counties, and in many of the district schools of those counties there will be Indian children in attendance, and a part of the duties of the supervisor is EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 499 to encourage, wherever it is possible and practicable, the attendance of Indian children in those public schools ; so that his stay at any one place depends upon the extent to which he goes into those features of the work. The Chairman. In cases where the Indian children attend school at white district schools, he would not have particular jurisdiction in those schools, would he? Mr. Thackbey. Not as to the management of the school. His duties there would only go to the extent of bringing about a coopera- tion of the officers of the public district schools and that of the local representatives of the Government and of the Indians. The Chairman. He would also probably have the right to deter- mine whether that was a good school for the Indian children to attend. Mr. Thackeey. He could make suggestions. The Chairman. That is, he would have the power to remove them from that school, would he ? Mr. Thackeey. I do not know that he would have the power. Certainly not if they are allotted and citizens. He could use his influence to that end. As to arbitrarily removing them, I doubt if he would have that authority. The Chairman. Are there cases where the children of Indians who are not allotted and who are not citizens attend white public schools ? Mr. Thackeey. Not very many — at least, to my knowledge. The Chaieman. In such a case, how would the Indian contribute to the support of the school, or would the Government do it for him ? Mr. Thackeey. In some cases the Government pays a certain tui- tion or amount to the — I don't know whether it goes to the teacher or to the officers of the school district. The Chaieman. It would go to the district. Mr. Thackeey. It would eventually, no doubt, go to the district. The Chaieman. It would go there in the first instance. The teacher in a country district school would not collect or handle the money except as the agent of the board of directors. Mr. ThaJckeey. I only know there is a provision for somebody in the district to receive an amount per capita for the number of Indian children attending some of the public schools. The Chairman. That would be just similar to the children having a permit to go from one district school to a school in another district. Mr. Thackeey. Yes. The Chairman. Of what territory were you superintendent before your appointment as supervisor? Mr. Thackeey. I had charge of the work of three tribes in Okla- homa — the Absentee Shawnees, the Mexico Kickapoos, and the Citizen Pottawatomies. The Chaieman. Are they living on reservations ? Mr. Thackeey. They are all of them allotted. There are many of them living on their allotments. The Chairman. Are they living in communities largely made up of Indians or are they mixed in with white settlers ? Mr. Thackery. They are mixed in with white settlers, excepting a very few of the Kickapoos, who live in little Indian villages. They, however, are surrounded by white settlers within a mile or so of their village. 500 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOK jUJiJr'AWTJViJi JN i . The Chairman. What is the manner of life of those Indians? Do they live in frame or regularly built houses ? Mr. Thaokehy. You mean the ones living in villages ? The Chairman. Those whom you have charge of. Mr. Thackery. The Absentee Shawnees, almost all of them, live in either frame or log houses, some of them built by the Government out of gratuity appropriations; some of them built under lease con- tracts on their land; others built by themselves. The Pottawato- mies are about the same. The Kickapoos who live in villages move about from one place to another during the year. They have ordi- narily a winter village, and that is usually in a sheltered place sur- rounded by timber. Their winter house is known in the Indian language as the " wickiup." The Chairman. What are they made of? Mr. Thackery. In the first place they cut a small pole and stick the larger end in the ground, usually in an oblong circle. Then they bend the tops over and tie them together from all sides, leaving an opening in the center through which the smoke escapes. Around that they fasten a sort of a carpet, woven by the Indians from a heavy grass or flagging that they get out of the swamp lands. A strip of that carpet or flagging is put next to the ground and will extend up perhaps 4 feet; then the next strip, the bottom of that will extend over the top of the other. The Chairman. Sort of shingle fashion ? Mr. Thackery. Yes ; to make it shed rain. They are a very com- fortable sort of Indian house. The Chairman. How is the space inside divided, if it is divided? Mr. Thackery. It it not divided. It is all in one room, ordi- narily. The Chairman. Do they have any furniture in it? Mr. Thackery. Very little. In some of them there is a sort of shelf at the outer part of the wickiup, usually about 3 feet from the ground, made by means of sticking a small post with forks in the top of it, in the ground. Then placing small poles through those forks and laying other poles across. Finally they lay on top of it a mat upon which they sleep, and in one end they will keep their provisions. The Chairman. Does more than one family live in one of those wickiups ? Mr. Thackery. Very frequently they have two or three or even four families in one. The Chairman. In how much space? Mr. Thackery. The average size, I should say, would be from 20 to 25 feet in length by about 12 to 14 feet across. The averageheight would not be more than 6 feet. The Chairman. Has any attempt been made to wean them from that mode of life? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What has been done? Mr. Thackery. We have what we call field matrons and district farmers, whose particular duties are to get the Indians on their individual allotments and assist them in establishing homes there of a civilized character. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 501 The Chairman. Have any buildings been erected for any of them ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir ; a great many. The Chairman. Such as those you speak of for the Shawnees and Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When they have such a home, do they reside in it all the year around ? Mr. Thackery. This small band of Kickapcos, ns a rule, do not. Some of them do. But I should say a little over half of them still adhere to the old Indian arrangement of living in a winter and a summer village. The Chairman. What provision has been made for the schooling of their children ? Mr. Thackery. The same as the others. The Chairman. Are their summer and winter residences far apart ? Mr. Thackery. Not ordinarily. Possibly they may be on the same tract of land. The only diilerence is that one would be up in a cool open place in the summer time, where there is plenty of breeze, and in the winter it would be down in a secluded spot. The Chairman. So their change from a summer to a winter resi- dence would not at all interfere with the attendance of their children at school ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. How convenient are the schools to the children ? Mr. Thackery. In these particular cases the Government board- ing school is located — well, those living nearest to it are within about a mile, and those living farthest from it are about 30 miles distant. The Chairman. Talking those tribes separately, taking the Shaw- nees first — you gave them some additional title, but I will refer to them as Shawnees — how much land does that tribe own or control ? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you as a whole. But the different allottees were originally given all the way from 40 acres to 320 acres to each person; and at the time they were allotted there were a few over 600 allottees. Some of them have since $old a part or all of their lands, so that at this time I do not know, without consulting the records. It would take some time to figure that up. I should ?ay. to estimate it, that they have sold two-fifths of their land. Probably they still own three-fifths of it. held in trupt by the Government. The Chairman. How long have they had the power to alienate their land? Mr. Thackery. There have been some four or five different nets of Congress passed under which they could alienate a part or all of their land, the first one having been passed, I think, about 1897. The Chairman. What do those Indians do for a living who have sold and alienated their land? Mr. Thackery. A good many of them are nonresidents nf that community. The Chairman. They moved away when they sold out, did thev? Mr. Thackery. They never lived there, many of them. The Citi- zen Pottawatomies came from Kansas and they left behind them what is known as the Perry Band of Pottawatomies. who are under the superintendent at M^ite, Kans. Many of them never went to Oklahoma from Kansas. 502 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. With the Absentee Shawnees, they are married and closely related to the Creek Indians, of the Five Civilized Tribes, and also to the Delawares and to the Eastern Shawnees up near Wyandotte. Some of them have lived with those, and many of those nonresidents dis- posed of all their holdings, but I do not know just what they are doing at this time. ' In most cases it was represented at the time that their wives had allotments elsewhere and that the purpose of the sale was to enable them to improve the home where they were then living. The Chairman. Speaking generally, what class of people bought their lands, white people? Mr. Thackeky. Almost always white people. The Chairman. Have you found any instances of the Indians buying land when it was for sale? Mr. Thaokeey. A few ; yes, sir. They were part Indian and in many cases full-blood Indians. The Chairman. Now, the other three-fifths of that Shawnee land you mentioned is still owned? Mr. Thackery. It is held in trust for them by the Government. The Chairman. Do they live on it themselves? Mr. Thackery. Of the Shawnee and Potawatomies I should say most of them do. The Chairman. What use is made of it ? Mr. Thackery. Many of them farm it themselves? The Chairman. And that which is not farmed; what is done with it? Mr. Thackery. Most of that is farmed either by them or by a lessee. The Chairman. When it is leased out, tvho does the leasing? Mr. Thackery. The owner or allottee consents to the lease which is made by the local superintendent. The Chairman. So that in your capacity, as superintendent down there you supervised at least the leasing of such land as was leased? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Will you tell us about how much of the Shawnee's land was leased by you ? Mr. Thackery. I could not give any definite statement about that without checking up the record. I presume we had possibly 150 or 200 Shawnee leases, which in many cases comprised only a part of the allotment. The allottee would retain part of it, and leave or lease out such part as he was unable to care for himself. The Chairman. That information, of course, is in the bureau here? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would you furnish the committee a complete statement of the amount of Indian lands which you, as superintend- ent, leased, and the names of the lessees, the terms and times of the leases, the amounts for which leased — in short, a synoptical state- ment of the whole matter of leasing under your control as superin- tendent. Mr. Thackery. Of Shawnee? The Chairman. Yes. Well, for all three of them— the Shawnees, the Kickapoos, and Potta^^•atomies — A\ho were under youi' super- vision ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir ; I will be glad to do that. The Chairman. How soon could you do it? EXPBNDITtJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 503 Mr. THAOKEKr. I believe I could get it in 10 days. The CHAmMAN. Well, the information is here in Washington, is it not? Mr. Thackery. I think it is all here in Washington, but I am not familiar with the Washington records, and I could get it sooner, I think, by telegraphing to the clerk or the present superintendent at Shawnee, where they have it all in a concise form. The Chairman. All those leases are in writing, I suppose ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; excepting— let me explain the Kickapoo situation. Their land has been in litigation and it would be diiScult to make any definite statement with reference to the Kickapoo allot- ments which have been in litigation. You know in 1906, under an act of Congress, what were called the nonresident Kickapoos were supposed to have sold their lands, and since that time a considerable number of those allotments have been in possession of the purported purchasers. The Chairman. White men? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. Eecently, however, they have been com- pelled to turn back the lands. And, of course, on those there was accounted lease money for the time they had it, but there were no leases drawn up. It was just a settlement of the cases in court. The Chairman. A sort of compromise of a law suit ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. We allowed them for improvements they put on the land, for the amount they had actually paid the In- dians when they were supposed to have taken the deeds, and then charged them with rent for the time they used the land. For the Shawnees and the I'ottawatomies, however, I could make you an accurate statement. The Chairman. As to the Shawnees and Pottawatomies, how are the leases made ? That is, who executes the lease, the superintendent or the Indian? Mr. Thackery. Ordinarily the Indian. In the case of a minor the superintendent executes the lease. It would be " Frank A. Thackery for So-and-so, a minor." The Chairman. But in cases where the Indian is not under legal disability he makes the lease himself and signs it himself, does he? Mr. Thackery. The lease, of course, is drawn up by the superin- tendent in his office, on the blank prescribed by the Interior Depart- ment, and the Indian signs it and acknowledges the lease before a notary. The Chairman. Is there any fixed way of signing it by the Indian? Mr. Thackery. He signs in his own handwriting if he can ; other- wise, by a thumb print. The Chairman. And as for the terms of the lease, who fixes them ? Mr. Thackery. If the Indians are competent, they are allowed to fix the terms under our supervision. Where they are not competent, they are fixed by the district farmers, ordinarily — in some cases by a lease clerk — subject to the approval of the superintendent and the Secretary of the Interior. The Chairman. What does " competent " mean in the sense in which you have just used it? Mr. Thackery. If he has sufficient business experience. The Chairman. Who determines that? Mr. Thackery. The local office. 504 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPAKTMENT. The Chairman. That is, the superintendent? Mr. Thaokeey. Yes. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, what proportion of those Shawnees and Potta^Yatomies were competent to fix the terms of their leases — the leases now existing? Mr. Thackeey. I .should say that four-fifths of the Pottawato- mies and half of the Shawnees. The Chairman. As to the other one-fifth of the Pottawatomies and the other one-half of the Shawnees, you, as superintendent, made the terms of the lease? Mr. Thackery. Well, we suggested the terms for the approval of the allottee ordinarily. The allottee would willingly leave it to the superintendent or the employees to determine it. The Chairman. There appears an inconsistency there which I do not see through. That is, that you would submit the terms of the lease to the approval of a man who was incompetent. Mr. Thackery. That is in a way true. The land is allotted to the different Indians. Some of them are competent and some of them are not, and tlie Government has taken the precaution that the super- intendent must pass on those contracts in submitting them. Unless he did so, many of those Indians would be coaxed into signing inade- quate contracts on their own lands. The Chairman. Have you leased any of those lands over the pro- test of the allottee? Mr. Thackery. A very few; yes, sir. The Chairman. What was the reason for it? Mr. Thackery. I only remember at this time one case that I have leased over protest. That was a case of an Indian girl — her English name was Axie Lunt. She was married to a young Indian fellow named Stephen Pensoneau. Do you want the facts in that matter, Mr. Chairman? The Chairman. You might give them. Mr. Thackery. The circumstances in that case, in short, were these : In 1908 these Kickapoo Indians received from an appropriation, approximately, $1,200 each, and about the time that payment was made this young girl and this young man were married, having just returned from school, one of them from the Carlisle School in Penn- sylvania, and the other one from the Chilocco School in Oklahoma. The allotments of both of them were under lease at the time they re- turned from school ; and in order to prepare them a home after they were married, we arranged to buy the crop and the hogs and com, some growing com and some com in the crib, from the lessee of the allotment of the husband. We bought them teams and everything,, and started them in on his allotment, after buying off the lessee, giving them possession of the house, and so on. I had some difficulty in reaching an agreement with the lessee. He contended for $1,000 for his growing crop and the crop already harvested, with some 20 head of hogs, some alfalfa hay — quite a list of stuff. We had appraised it at $800. Finally, he came over with Mr. Pensoneau and this girl, and agreed to take our figure, $800. The money was paid to him in my presence from the funds of both boy and girl, the young man and the young woman. A few months later I ^vas quite surprised when they both came to me and said that this former lessee had taken possession of their property under a mortgage. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. 50S On investigation I found that when they had gone from our office to town he had taken their note for the $200 which we had refused to pay, which was the difference between his demand and our price, and to secure that note he liad taken a mortgage on all of their prop- erty. Stephen had refused to pay it, and they had taken the matter before the grand jury, claiming that he had disposed of some of the property upon which they had a mortgage. . I cleared that matter up for them and got him out of that trouble. Then he attempted to lease this same home that I had secured for them outside, which is unlawful. He could not make a bona fide lease of the land without its having been made through us ; and know- ing we would object to his making a lease, he sought to do it outside without our knowledge, and did so and collected the money. I did riot know of that fact for several months. Finally he suddenly left the county with his wife. Upon investigation I found that he had leased it out to this man and that he had again become so deeply involved in debt that he had leased all of this property that we had bought for him and had gone off to another county, or rather to the southern part of our county, about 50 miles away. He lived there something over a year. In the meantime, the lease on his wife's allotment expired. The district farmer representing our office called on the allottee, this Axie Lunt, where they were liv- ing, down near the post office, which was Sacred Heart, in Pottawat- omie County, and he talked to them about renewing the lease. She consented to it, although she did not sign the lease. The farmer returned and consulted with tY e proposed lessee, and he accepted the terrifis that had been talked of with Axie Lunt. The lease was drawn up and he signed it. It was sent to her to be signed, and she, acting on the advice of her husband, refused. She said they were going to move up there and live there themselves. The district farmer called it to my attention, and I sent him, with Axie Lunt and her husband, to take the matter up with this proposed lessee, a man named House. They made a new arrangement whereby he was to build them a house on one part of the allotment and give them a share of the croj), in- cluding a share of quite a field of alfalfa. I think there were about 30 to 35 acres of alfalfa on that land. In addition to that, they were to have whatever ground he did not cultivate. The Chairman. How much was there in the tract of land? Mr. Thackeey. Eighty acres. He had no team and no imple- ments of any kind. He had lost them all in his experience of mort- gaging his property in order to get a lot of ready money. He was very careless. The Chairman. Is the lessee now living on the land ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. House? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The lease was later drawn up at the office and submitted to them. They had willingly agreed to all of it, but they again declined to sign that lease, thinlting that they could get the growing crop on the land which the lessee had planted and upon which he had done a lot of work, thinking the agreement would be made and the lease would go through. Then I arbitrarily leased the land to him for the balance of the year, securing for them an excellent contract. 506 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEHIOK 0EPAETMENT. The Chairman. That,as I understand you, is the only case where you did arbitrarily lease land? Mr. Thackeey. That is the only case I remember. It is the only case in which there was any difficulty at all during my superifl- tendency. The Chairman. How many Indian schools were under your super- vision there as superintendent? Mr. Thackeey. Only the one Government boarding school. The Chairman. What was the name of it ? Mr. Thackery. The Shawnee Indian Training School. The Chairman. How many children attended it? Mr. Thackery. The average attendance was a little over a hun- dred, taking them from year to year. The Chairman. Were there any but Indian children at it? Were there any white children attending it at all ? Mr. Thackery. No, sir ; none excepting those that had the rights of an Indian. Some of them were more than half white, but were children of allottees. In those cases they were usually orphans who had no way of being cared for other than by the schools. The Chaieman. Were any of them the children of competent parents ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir ; some of those that I speak of. The Chairman. How many would there be of that character? Mr. Thackery. Oh, I presume there were some 15 or 20. When I say they were children of competent parents, most of them, as I stated, were orphan children. In some cases the mother was dead and the father had no established home in the way of caring for the chO- dren, and they were taken in ; in other cases, they had neither father nor mother. The Chairman. Those Indians whom you call competent— they are voters and taxpayers, I suppose? Mr. Thackeey. Very few of them pay taxes. They can vote, al- though very few of them do. The Chaieman. Why do they not pay taxes? Mr. Thackeey. Because their property is mostly held in trust by the United States. The Chaieman. If competent, my understanding is that the trust ceases with competency. Mr. Thackeey. It is referred to in those terms at the Osage Agency; that is, we have some Indians who are competent, whom we class as competent, whose property is still held in trust. I under- stand that we have no way of compelling them to secure full title to their land. The land was allotted for a trust period of 25 years, and they may, if they so desire, ask to have the restrictions removed, but if they do not ask to do so, I do not understand that we can require it. The Chairman. At the end of 25 years is it not the custom to present to them a free patent for the land ? Mr. Thackery. The 25-year period has not expired ; but I presume that will be the custom. At this time they grant the patents in all cases where they show competency upon their request. The Chairman. You state that many of those children who are of competent parentage are orphans or partly orphans. Do I under- stand from that answer and explanation that they have not a right to attend the school if they are of competent parents and the parents are living? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. 507 Mr. Thackery. You mean to attend the Government school? The Chairman. Yes; the school which is under your control. ,■ Mr. Thackery. As to a matter of right, I think they have the right, but it is the policy, and has been for some years, of the depart- ment to get them into public schools as fast as possible in order to relieve the Government of the burden of their education, believing also that their intermingling with the white children would be beneficial. The Chairman. Could you tell us at this time how many of those children who attended the school of which you were the superinten- dent, were of competent parentage? How many children at your school were the children of competent parents?, Mr. Thackery. Well, I think the proportion would be about the same as the proportion of allottees whom we class as competent to make their own lease contracts; about one-half of the Shawnees and four-fifths of the Pottawatomies. However, there are only a few Pottawatomies attending our school. Most of them are in the public schools. That would be exclusive of the orphan children. The Chairman. Let me see if I get your thought clearly: One- half of the Shawnee children who attend the schom are the children of competent parents who are living? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And, in addition to that, there are Shawnee chil- dren of competent parents, one or both of whom are dead ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. Most of our orphan children are members of the Citizen Pottawatamie Tribe. The Chairman. How near are they to the white district schools? Mr. Thackery. Most of them live within 2 miles of them, of the white district schools. There are some few exceptions, but generally they live within that distance. The Chairman. It being the policy of the Government, and doubt- less a very wise policy, to have the Indian children go to school with and intermingle with the white children, why did not these go? Mr. Thackery. The public schools in that district have only been built within the last few years. The country is now only being set- tled up. The Chairman. Well, since they were built, why did they not go? Mr. Thackery. Well, there are several reasons. In many of the district schools of our county the term of school is only three months, and some of them four months. We find it is very hard to require their attendance at public schools. Many of them will promise to attend the public school, but when we go around and inspect the daily record we find that they have been there one. or two days out of a month, perhaps. The attendance is very irregular. In addition to that, there is a good deal of race prejudice that we have to over- come, especially with the full-blood Indians. The Chairman. Have any of them been attending the public school ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Since the schools were built? Mr. Thackery. Oh, yes; quite a number. The Chairman. How many? Mr. Thackery. I would estimate that under that jurisdiction there are between two and three hundred children of Indian blood in the public schools. 508 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. And that would include, of course, a great number of public schools? Mr. Thackeey. Yes; scattered over four counties. It has been the policy of the department to provide only for those at Government boarding schools who could not, for the reasons which I mentioned a moment ago, be cared for in the public schools. The CiiAiRjiAx. Does the amount of funds assigned to the agency school depend in any way on the enrollment in it? Mr. Thackery. I think not, in what we class as the reservation boarding school. The Chairman. Well, in your school? Mr. Thackeey. No. There is in what is termed the nonreservation school, what is an arbitrary rule, or perhaps it is a law, on that point — that is, I think it is left to the discretion of either the com- missioner or the Secretary, although I am not sure about that; but it is generally understood that the per capita allowance, which the schools should keep within, is $167. I think that is the amount they should keep within. The Chairman. Per month? Mr. Thackery. Per year. The Chairman. Plow much? Mr. Thackery. $167 per year for each pupil. They should keep within that total expense. That includes fuel, salaries, food, cloth- ing, etc. The Chairman. In your school, if all the children were of com- petent parents, whether their parents were living or dead, and they attended the nearest white district school, what would the attendance be at your school? Mr. Thackery. If all of them attended the district school? The Chairman. If all of them who were of competent parentage, whether orphans or not. Mr. Thackery. It would be somewhere about 50, I should say. The Chairman. Less than half what it is now? Mr. Thackery. Yes. It would be little less than half. The Chairman. Now, take the $167 per capita and explain to the committee, if you please, how it is expended. What it is for, what it covers. Mr. Thackery. It covers the food and clothing of the pupils, the fuel supijly. the salaries of employees, and the general equipment of the school, such f s horses and cattle, schoolroom fixtures, dormitorj- fixtures, and so on. The Chairman. The superintendent, of course, has a salary? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who furnishes the food, determines what it shall be, and the quantity, the quality, and the character of it? Mr. Thackery. The different superintendents prepare, upon blanks furnished by the dejiartment, an annual estimate for practi- cally all — well. I think, all foods, bedding, clothing, and everything of that kind. Those are submitted annually to the Commissioner oi Indian Affairs, and are here in Washington consolidated, and the different items purchased in the open market under competitive bids, Ihiough the Indian warehouses, one located in Chicago, in New York, and so on, and by the superintendents of those warehouses shipped to the different superintendents over the United States. EXPENBITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 509i The Chairman. Is that true also in regard to clothing and fuel and the other miscellaneous items? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Has the superintendent anything whatever to do with those supplies? Mr. Thackery. The superintendent may buy in the open market in his locality such things as potatoes, and occasionally some fruit. But very little of fruit is purchased. He may, for instance, decrease the allowance on the annual estimate of dried fruits, and in lieu of the amount he saves on that he can get authority from the depart- ment here to use whatever saving he has made from the dried fruit in purchasing fresh fruit in his locality. The Chairman. How much land is attached to the school? Mr. Thackery. It is different in the different schools. The Chairman. In yours? Mr. Thackery. 320 acres, less 3 acres reserved for mission. The Chairman. How much of that is cultivatahle land ? Mr. Thackery. All excepting that taken up by small creeks. The Chairman. How much of that is actually cultivated this year ? Mr. Thackery. We are cultivating this year approximately 240 acres. The Chairman. What is in it? Mr. Thackery. Alfalfa, corn, oats, and potatoes are the principal crops. We have quite a large garden, a large vineyard, and large apple and peach orchards. The Chairman. Under those circumstances, what necessity can there be for buying potatoes or other vegetables ? Mr. Thackery. At our particular school we bought a very few of those things. We raise practically all we use. We have sometimes bought potatoes. In regard to that, our potatoes mature early, and we find it very hard to keep them, and we sell those under authority from the department, and then later on in the year buy a potato that will keep better during the winter. The Chairman. In the estimates which you submit, do you include anything which you can raise on the farm? Do you include the- purchase of anything like potatoes or com, or other things ? Mr. Thackery. We have sometimes included potatoes, and in a few years— well, I have never had in the annual estimate any item of corn. However, we have sometimes submitted a special request after finding that our crop had failed to furnish enough to feed . our hogs and cattle. I have submitted a special estimate and ob- tained authority to buy com. But in 10 years I do not remember of buying corn in but 2 years out of that 10. The Chairman. How is the crop of the farm disposed of ? Mr. Thackery. It is harvested and taken up on the property re- turns of the different superintendents and then expended under the regulations of the department, just as the property that comes on the annual estimates. The Chairman. What good reason can you give, Mr. Thackery, why the children should not properly belong under the State control, should not go to State schools, and be educated at State expense ? Mr. Thackery. There is no good reason. They are putting forth a special effort in the last two years to get them into the- plublic schools, where the schools are already provided. 510 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. How many did you say were attending your school ? Mr. Thackert. Public schools ? The Chairman. No; your agency school, altogether. Mr. Thackery. Our average attendance is a little over 100. The Chairman. And the enrollment would be how much?. Mr. Thackery. It would go, perhaps, to 125 or 130. The Chairman. The estimates would be on the enrollment and not on the average attendance? Mr. Thackery. They would be on the average attendance. The Chairman. As to the figure of $167 per head, how could you anticipate, when you are making your estimate in the beginning, what the average attendance would be? Would you not be com- pelled to rely on the enrollment? Mr.. Thackery. It is ordinarily based on the average attendance of the previous year. Then the superintendent is allowed to com- ment. If he estimates for an amount over the average attendance for the previous year, he must show reasons why he does that. The Chairman. And the average attendance, you say, is how much, in your school? Mr. Thackery. It is something over 100; I don't remember exactly. The Chairman. Well, on that basis there would be over 50 attend- ing your school who are properly chargeable to the State. At $167 per capita, that would be $8,350 of expense for the maintenance of that school, which would be properly chargeable to the State of Oklahoma, would it not? Mr. Thackery. Well, I do not quite understand it that way. While I think it is desirable that those pupils be gotten into the public schools as fast as possible, I think that the Government owes it to the community where there is a bunch of Indians, with a lot of land on which they pay no taxes, to do something; the Government owes it to that community to do something to offset the burden thrust upon that locality by reason of so many Indians there, not paying any taxes. The Chairman. Are none of them taxable — those who send chil- dren to your agency school? Mr. Thackery. Some of them, no doubt, have a small amount of personal property which they have bought with their lease funds, or something of that kind. Some of them, a very few, have a con- siderable amount of property and, pay taxes. The children of those people, however, are in the public schools at this time. The Chairman. I do not think I got accurately the situation with reference to these Kickapoos who went to Mexico. Have they re- turned ? Mr. Thackery. They are divided. The bunch who went down there are mostly there now, in the State of Sonora, Mexico. Those who are now in Oklahoma, generally speaking, remained there when the others left. They have been back and forth. The Chairman. Those who did go retained property rights in Oklahoma, did they not? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Just the same as if they had not gone ? Mr. Thackery. Just the same as if they had not gone. Deeds were taken on their lands and they have been set aside. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 511 The Chairman. You say somebody claiming title has been on the lands in the' interim? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And since then an arrangement has been made by way of compromise by which the persons who occupied their lands have paid to them an agreed amount for the use of it ? Mr. Thackery. They have paid to the Government, for them, this amount; yes, sir. The Chairman. Where is that money, actually ? Mr. Thackeey. Part of it is in the hands of the present super- intendent in Oklahoma. The Chaieman. It was in yours, when you were superintendent? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How much ? Mr. Thackeey. I don't remember the amount. The Chaieman. How long had any of it been in your hands? Mr. Thackeey. A matter of only a few weeks. The Chairman. Since the compromise was effected ? Mr. Thackery. The compromise was effected about six weeks ago, I think; but some of the funds have not yet been paid in to the superintendent. In fact, a larger part of them are now in bank in Eagle Pass, Tex., which was deposited there in connection with the purported purchased by these men of these lands; and they are to use that fund as soon as we can get hold of it to pay the amount of lease money required. The Chairman. Who was your successor ? Mr. Thackery. John A. Buntin. The Chairman. Where did you deposit your Kickapoo funds that came to your hands ; in the local bank there ? Mr. Thackeey. Some of it was deposited in the St. Louis sub- treasury of the United States; some of it in the First National Bank in Tecumseh ; some in the Shawnee National Bank of Shawnee ; and some, I think, in the Western National Bank of Oklahoma City. The Chaieman. To whose credit is it deposited? Mr. Thackeey. To the credit of the superintendent. The Chairman. In a lump sum ? Mr. Thackery. I beg your pardon ; that is wrong. It is deposited to the credit of the different Indians, subject to their check only when the check is approved by the superintendent. The Chairman. Is it drawing interest for them or for anyone ? Mr. Thackeey. It is all drawing interest, unless it is very small amounts over which there has been some controversy and it has been just temporarily deposited until it is determined definitely to whom it belongs. The banks holding a greater part of the money — the Shawnee National, of Shawnee, and the First National, of Tecum- seh — ^give a surety-company bond covering the deposit, and in addi- tion to that they pay 4 per cent on the average daily balance. The Chaieman. Does that 4 per cent, by the terms of the deposit, go into the fund itself? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, sir. Each month they add it onto the credit of the different Indians. The Chaieman. How much will there be of it, do you know, when it is all paid in ? Mr. Thackery. You mean under this compromise? 512 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Thackehy. The amount paid in under the compromise, as I remember it, is between two and three thousand dolla,rs. The Indian gets the improvements these men put on the land. The Chairman. Two or three thousand to each one ? Mr. Thackery. Oh, no; the total amount. The settlement is like this : The Indians agree to pay back the amount of money . these men actually gave them. It is a settlement with each separate Iot dian. Each case is settled separately. If one particular Indian got a thousand dollars from some white man, he agrees to pay that back, and also to allow the white man for whatever amount of improve- ments have been placed upon the land while the white man held it. The Chairman. How would they get at that item — the value of the improvements to the land at this time? Mr. Thackery. Well, the value of the improvements placed on tl\e land during the time the white man held it — the value at this time. Then, after allowing the white man for the amount he has actually paid the Indian, plus the cost of the improvements, or the value of the improvements, we charge him with the rental value per year for the number of years he held it. Taking it as a whole, it leaves the white men indebted to the Indians somewhere, I think, between two and three thousand dollars. The Chairman. About how many Indians are there in that class? Mr. Thackery. Involved in that settlement there are, with Mr. C. J. Benson, thirty-seven 80-acre tracts. Well, the settlement, I think, covers about sixty-five 80-acre allotments. The Chairman. There would be some 65 times the amount you mentioned in the whole fund? Mr. Thackery. Oh, no; that is the total amount. The Chairman. Two or three thousand dollars? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. After we allow them for the amount they gave the Indians plus the improvements, and then charge them with the rents, there is a difference due the Indians of some two or three thousand dollars. The Chairman. That would be only about how much to each allottee? Mr. Thackery. Oh, it is different to different ones. The Chairman. On an average? Mr. Thackery. I remember one or two that get approximately a thousand dollars in the settlement. The Chairman. The average, then, would be less than $40 to each ftllottee. Mr. Thackery. I could make that much more clear if I could present one of those schedules which are at the Indian Office and which show clearly the settlement, in figures, in each separate case. The Chairman. Has the superintendent any money belonging to the Indians of either of those tribes, or any of them, except this fund you speak of, which belonged to the Mexican Kickapoos ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What other funds does he hold? Mr. Thackery. Where they have sold heirship land, and in some cases small amounts of lease money. For that part of the Kickapoo tribe now in Sonora, Mexico, my successor has at this time approxi- mately $16,000 to their credit. EXPENDITXJBES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPARTMENT. 513 The Chairman. That is about the amount you turned over to him, is it? Mr. Thackeey. Yes, nir. The Chairman. And how much «heirship-land money? Mr. Thackery. That is the whole thing put together. The Chairman. Would the $16,000 include the Mexican Kickapoo money also? Mr. Thackery. It would include that part of it which we have collected. The Chairman. How much did you turn over to your successor altogether ? Mr. Thackery. I think it was a little over $90,000. The Chairman. Now, then, you have accounted for the source of $16,000 of it, and that would leave, unaccounted for, some $74,000. "\Vliat did that come from? Mr. Thackery. It comes mostly from the sale of heirship land, or from the leasing of allotments. Quite a large part of that belongs to minor children. The Chairman. How long had you served as superintendent there ? Mr. Thackery. About 10 years. The Chairman. How did the amount of money in your hands dur- ing that time compare with the amount turned over to your suc- cessor? Mr. Thackery. The amount I turned over was much larger than the amount I received when I went there. That is due largely to the change of policy of the department with reference to paying out these Indian moneys. Formerly, when a lease was approved, the money was paid out as soon as it was received by the superintendent, or if a deed was approved, the whole consideration was turned over to the Indian at once. Now, the policy is to supervise their expenditure of that fund by holding it, the Supreme Court having decided that the same trust which was on the land followed the funds on the money ; and there- fore it is the policy of the department to supervise the use of that by the Indian. If he wants to use it, he comes in and says he wants to buy a team or wants to build a house, and he gets authority from us to expend it for the purposes approved of. The Chairman. Do the accounts show that the interest that money earned was from time to time turned into the fund ? Mr. Thackery. Yes. The Chairman. What account would show that? Mr. Thackery. The accounts of the bank and the accounts of the local superintendent. The Chairman. Were you connected with any of the banks which held it? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. In any way, as a stockholder or officer? Ht. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. How can the Indian get the money if he needs it? Mr. Thackery. We have a general authority to pay any Indian an amount not exceeding $100 in any one month. If he needs more than that for any special purpose, such as building a house or buying a team, or any other thing which he may need, the local superintend- 98240— No. 13—11 3 514 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. ent asks authority from the commissioner to use so much of his money for the purpose named. The Chairman. He gets permission from whom ? Mr. Thackery. From the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. The Chairman. Well, of course we realize that the commissioner could not personally attend to all the requests of that kind from every Indian reservation. Mr. Thackery. Well, I mean, of course, from his office. The Chairman. It comes from the office? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the Indian force generally, whether as superintendent or otherwise? Mr. Thackery. About 20 years. The Chairman. During the 10 years you have been superintendent has there been any appreciable advance made toward the personal independence of the Indian and the annihilation of the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Thackery. In the matter of an increased attendance of Indian children in the public schools, there has been very marked increase. In the matter of actual attendance of the allottees the progress is slow. It is a very difficult question to handle. We have tried policies; first, in the matter of their funds, as an illustration, we started out by turning over their funds. We found that in so many cases it was improperly used ; that we then sought some other plan by which we could encourage- the Indian into thrift and home making by supervising his use of it. There are some objections to that in that it continues a certain dependence upon the Government; but, on the whole, I think it has wakened up the Indians to a more intelligent use of their funds. The result is that we have better homes now on the reservation on which I have been superintendent than we have ever had before, and more of them. The Chairman. What year had the largest enrollment of pupils in the agency school? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you that without- The Chairman (interposing). In your 10 years' experience? Mr. Thackery. I could not tell you without — I have not had direct supervision of the school. We have a man who acts in direct charge of that, and I only know in a general way. The Chairman. In a general way, is the number increasing or decreasing? Mr. Thackery. It is now decreasing. The largest attendance was some three or four years ago. The Chairman. Has there been any diminution in the number of bureau employees in the agency? Mr. Thackery. No, sir. The Chairman. Has there been any increase? Mr. Thackery. There was an increase in the office. When I as- sumed charge there, a part of the work that formerly had been done by three employees devolved upon me. When I commenced, I took the work of former Special Agent Martin J. Bentley ; the work of the superintendent of the Shawnee School, Mrs. Williams; and a large part of the work of the Indian agent, Lee Patrick, at the Sac and Fox Agency. The whole work was consolidated and given to me, so that the office force for the handling of the reservation part EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 515 of the work was increased. The school remained about the same as it was when I went there — that is, the force of employees. The Chairman. With reference to the matters you have not an- swered at this time, and about which you thought you could fur- nish us the desired information in 10 days, I want to specifically call your attention to them now: The amount of Indian land which you have leased, altogether, for, say, the last current year; to whom you leased each tract; the price to be paid, the time for which the lease is made, and the man- ner of leasing it — that is, whether leased by you, with the consent and approval of the Indian, whether signed by him, and the other details of all the leases — that is, the essential details of those leases. I would like, also, if you would give to the committee at the same time the amount of money which you held in trust for the Indians for the last, say, five years; where the money was; in what bank; the amount of interest actually earned and added to the fund for the last five years. Mr. Thaokery. I would say I doubt very much if I can get that particular data in 10 days, because it involves an immense amount of figuring. I shall be glad to get it. It will be necessary to go over three or four years' accounts. The Chairman. Would there not be a record kept somewhere at the agency of the amount in hand, where it was, and what credits there had been made of interest? Mr. Thackery. We will have to go over each separate Indian ac- count, of which there are several hundred, and figure it from month to month. The Chairman. Would the interest earnings be added to the accounts ? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir; 4 per cent on the average daily balances and each bank holding the funds makes a monthly statement show- ing the average daily balance and the amount of interest. The Chairman. That would involve quite a good deal of labor. Mr. Thackery. Pardon me for saying just at this time that we have at our agency two fractional sets of accounts to get out. I turned over the affairs of the agency on the 15th, and my accounts for the quarter, up to the 15th of this month, must be finished ; and following that the accounts of the new superintendent, from the 15th to the end of the month, must be prepared. The Chairman. Can you think of any way in which a substan- tially accurate statement of the amount of interest earned and added to the fund could be ascertained? Mr. Thackery. I think the clerk who has had that matter in hand at the local office could come very near to the actual amount without going into the details. The Chairman. Under the circumstances, I would not ask you to figure it out on daily balances. Mr. Thackery. I would appreciate that very much, although I would be glad to get it, but it would take more time. The Chairman. It is a bigger job than I thought when I pro- posed that. Gentlemen, do you desire to ask Mr. Thackery any more questions ? Mr. Thackery. In the matter of leases, if you will pardon me for adding a statement, where we are leasing an unimproved allotment, 516 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPABTMENT. or in some cases one partially improved, very often a large part of the consideration of the lease is the improvements. The lessee binds himself under a bond to place a house or a fence, or to construct a drainage ditch, or to break new land, cultivate new land. Have you any particular suggestion with reference to a report of. those which you would like to have, as to the manner of improvements in those leases; what they are? In every lease the value of those improve- ments is estimated and shown right in the different leases. Would you like to have that estimated value of the improvements, to have specified what they are? The Chairman. No; I do not think I care for that. Have you personally been in contact with any of those Mexican Kickapoos who returned? Mr. Thackery. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have they been gone? Mr. Tpiackery. Some of them as long as three years. The Chairifax. Xone of them more than that? Mr. Thackery. Well, possibly some of them a little more. They have been back and forth. I have visited their camp in Mexico on one occasion. The Chaiesiax. The thought in my mind was to get your judg- ment iis to the effect of their Mexican life on them, but it was so short that it would not be appreciable. That is, whether they were more advanced or less ad^ anced than those Indiana who did not go to Mexico. Mr. Thackery. There is no question but what the prime object of their moving to ^lexico was to get away from civilizing influences, where they might live in their old way and have plenty of game to hunt, and not be annoyed by our matrimonial laws and such other annoyances as would make a grievanae for a typical, old-time Indian. In those respects I would say they have retarded. The Chair^fax. That will be all for this afternoon, and we will ask you to be kind enough to return in the morning. (Thereiipon, at 3.30 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Wednesday, June 28, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) No. 14 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JULY 6, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVEENMENT FEINTING OPMOE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCaebon, Clerk. n EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expendituhes IN THE Interior Department, House of Representatives, . Thursday, July 6, 1911. The committee this day met, Hon James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Eepresentatives George, Hensley, and Hanna. There were also present Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Mr. Thomas Sloan, attorney at law, and Mr. E. B. Merrit, law clerk, Indian Bureau. testimony of charles e. coe, superintendent of camp McDowell agency, ariz. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. Mr. Sloan, will you conduct the examination for the committee ? Mr. Sloan. Where are you located in the service at this time? Mr. CoE. Superintendent of the Camp McDowell Agency. Mr. Sloan. How long have you occupied that position? Mr. CoE. Since January 16, 1910. Mr. Sloan. Where were you employed prior to that time? Mr. CoE. As superintendent of the Havasupai Indian Reservation. Mr. Sloan. Where was that with reference to your present loca- tion? Mr. CoE. About 220 miles north. Mr. Sloan. What Indians have you under your charge ? Mr. CoE. I have Pimas, Maricopas, Mohave-Apaches, Yuma- Apaches, and two or three families of Tonti-Apaches. Mr. Sloan. How close are you now living to the McDowell Reser- vation ? Mr. CoE. I am now 22 miles from the old headquarters at Mc- Dowell. Mr. Sloan. How large a plant is there where you are now situ- ated? Mr. CoE. There is a day school and one employee's cottage at present. Mr. Sloan. What Indians are attendant upon that school ? Mr. CoE. The Pimas. Mr. Sloan. How close to the proposed location for allotment on the Salt River Reservation that has been designated for the Camp McDowell Indians? 517 518 EXPENDITURES LN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. About 7 miles, I should judge. Mr. Sloan. Is there any other school plant provided for those who might locate upon the lands set apart for the McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. CoE. At present, I believe not. Mr. Sloan. Is there one in contemplation of being erected? Mr. CoE. I think so ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not any work has been done upon it? Mr. CoE. There has not. Mr. Sloan. Is there an officer of the Indian Bureau located on the McDowell Reservation proper? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Under whose jurisdiction is he? Mr. CoE. Mine. Mr. Sloan. What is his name? Mr. CoE. He is a temporary employee at present — T. H. Coldwell. Mr. Sloan. How long has he been there? Mr. CoE. Since the 8th of March of the present year. Mr. Sloan. Whom did he succeed? Mr. CoE. Well, it was hardly a succession at all. At the time I removed to the Salt River Reservation he took the place of the day- school teacher at McDowell. Mr. Sloan. Did he succeed to your charge of that reservation? Mr. CoE. He has immediate charge of the reservation ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Under your direction? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How many Indians are living on that reservation? Mr. CoE. If I remember the census figure returned to me a few days ago, it was 213 accounted for — the census which was taken iii the last week or the latter part of June. Mr. Sloan. Are they permanent residents there? Mr. CoE. Part of them; part of them spend a good deal of time off the reservation. Mr. Sloan. Have they any homes there? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Wliat number of them? Mr. CoE. Well, I suppose all of them in a way have homes there- Indian homes. Mr. Sloan. Do they occupy individual or family lands? Mr. CoE. Family lands, you might say. Mr. Sloan. Do they cultivate those lands? Mr. CoE. Some of them ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How many or what proportion of the families are culti- vating the land? Mr. CoE. I do not believe I can tell you exactly. Mr. Sloan. At the time you were located there, what is your best judgment as to how many there Avere? Mr. CoE. As to how many families ? Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir; cultivating the lands? Mr. CoE. Probably between 35 and 40 families. Mr. Sloan. What proportion of the whole number would that be? Mr. CoE. That would be probably about seven-eighths. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 519 Mr. Sloan. Have those Indians or any part of them made perma- nent improvements on those lands? Mr. CoE. They found the improvements there when they were given the lands. Mr. Sloan. Have they made any additions to the improvements? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are they occupying them? Mr. CoE. You mean the houses? Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir. Mr. CoE. I think there are probably only two families on the reser- vation living in the houses. Mr. Sloan. What is done with the other buildings? Mr. CoE. They are just standing there unoccupied. Mr. Sloan. How about the lands about those buildings ? Mr. CoE. Part of them are under cultivation. Mr. Sloan. By whom? Mr. CoE. By the Indians. Mr. Sloan. Do you know how many acres are being cultivated by the Camp McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. We can only estimate that at 450 acres. Mr. Sloan. When do you base that estimate, this year or last year? Mr. CoE. This year. Mr. Sloan. Is that all they are able to cultivate ? Mr. CoE. It seems to be all they care to cultivate. Mr. Sloan. What means have they for cultivating the lands? Mr. CoE. They have plows, some harrows, and, of course, all of them have shovels for irrigating, and the Government furnishes a disk harrow for use all over the reseiwation. Mr. Sloan. Have they sufficient horses to properly use the imple- ments you have designated? Mr. CoE. They have a sufficient number, but they are small Indian ponies, and perhaps they do not plow as deeply as white men would. Mr. Sloan. Are their ponies heavy enough to handle the imple- ments and cultivate the soil according to the white man's improved methods or not? Mr. CoE. I should say not. Mr. Sloan. In what condition of repair are the houses or build- ings left by the white people there? Mr. CoE. They are in very bad repair, because no improvements or repairs have been made on them since the Indians have had them_. Mr. Sloan. Have those Indians any means of their own by which they would be enabled to make those improvements or repairs ? Mr. CoE. I think so. Mr. Sloan. What are they? Mr. CoE. They have the crops, sell those, and use the money for anything they wish. They also sell some wood and posts and per- form some labor off the reservation. Mr. Sloan. Do they raise sufficient crops beyond their immediate needs and seed for the ensuing year to care for all their animals ? Mr. CoE. They feed their animals very little of the crops they raise ; they depend on the range almost entirely. Mr. Sloan. What amount of crops in value are sold by a family beyond their immediate needs ? 520 BXPBNDITirEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. I can not give you the figures, for the reason that the Indians market their own crops and handle all the money, so I have no figures. Mr. Sloan. Are you familiar Avith the lands on the Salt Eiver Reservation, which it is proposed to allot to the McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. I have been over the lands and examined the lands which the office has offered to give to those Indians. Mr. Sloan. What is the character of that land ? Mr. CoE. Excellent. Mr. Sloan. I did not understand that answer. Mr. CoE. Excellent. Mr. Sloan. Are they good lands for cultivation ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What kind of irrigating water is provided there? Mr. CoE. The water will be taken from the Arizona Canal. Mr. Sloan. Is the canal so situated that the water from it may reach these lands without any additional power? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What water rights would there be for those lands from the Arizona Canal ; would they get the general flow from either the Salt or the Verde River, or would they only be entitled to the over- flow from high water? Mr. CoE. I am not very well qualified to testify as to the water rights, but my understanding is that they would receive the general flow. Mr. Sloan. How would that flow be provided, if you know ? Mr. CoE. I understand that such of the Indians as wish to take farming lands under the Arizona Canal would receive their propor- tion of the water that they are now using at McDowell. Mr. Sloan. What is the reason for that belief? Mr. CoE. The conversation I had with Judge Kent, who made the decree. Mr. Sloan. When did you have that conversation? Mr. CoE. A little more than a year ago. Mr. Sloan. Some time prior to the rendition of the decree? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Subsequent to that? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know, from an examination of the decree or map filed with it, as to what class of lands is designated in that decree ? Mr. CoE. From the map, I believe, they are designated class C lands. Mr. Sloan. AVliat benefit would accrue to class C lands under that decree, if you know? Mr. CoE. Ordinarily, class C lands would, I believe, only have the benefit of stored water. Mr. Hensley. What kind of water? Mr. CoE. The reservoir water — stored water. Mr. Sloan. Why are those lands an exception to the other lands? Mr. CoE. I understand that Judge Kent wanted to give those In- dians as much as possible so that their lands, if they should take them, would get the water rights they were usiiig at McDowell at the time the decree was made. EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 521 Mr. Sloan. "Were you a witness on behalf of the Indians before that court? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Were you present during the trial? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you submit any official correspondence to the court on behalf of these Indians during the pendency of that action? Mr. CoE. No, sir. I was not in that part of the Territory at that time. Mr. Sloan. What advantages would the Indians gain by re- moval to the Salt Eiver Eeservation? Mr. CoE. It has been proposed to give those Indians the present homes at McDowell and to give them some farming land on the Salt River, where there would not be so much difficulty in getting water for farming as there is at McDowell. Mr. SixjAN. Have the lands that have been designated for that purpose been cultivated or improved at all? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. What is the present character of the lands without the water rights? Mr._ CoE. A desert, the same as all the lands are which have not been improved. Mr. Sloan. Do you know the character of the water that is con- veyed to that immediate section of the Arizona canal, as to whether it is salt or alkaline or clear water? Mr. CoE. I have never seen the analysis, but it is the same water used exclusively throughout the whole Salt River Valley. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not it is the same as that furnished by the pumping station? Mr. CoE. It is not the same. Mr. Sloan. What is the difference? Mr. CoE. I am not prepared to state the exact difference. I would say, as a layman, that the water going through the Arizona canal was the natural flow of the Salt and Verde Rivers, while that from the pumping station is the underground water. Mr. Hanna. What is the difference in the character of the water? Mr. CoE. I am unable to say just what the difference is. Mr. George. Which is the better water, in your judgment? Mr. CoE. The natural flow — the river water. Mr. Henslet. Better than the pumped water ? Mr. CoE. I should say yes, sir. Mr. Henslet. AVhat do you base your judgment on ? Mr. Coe. Well, my judgment would be based on what the majority of the farmers in that section of the country say. Mr. Henslet. They prefer it? Mr. Coe. They prefer the river water; yes, sir. The Chairman. Taking the Salt River water before it joins the Verde, what difference would there be between it and the pumped water ? Mr. CoE. I do not know. The Chairman. Have you any information on that point? In other words, is it not the accession of the Verde River water to the Salt River water that makes it better than the pumped water? Mr. CoE. I am unable to answer that question. 522 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. You do know that the Verde Kiver water is pure, good water ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. What about the Salt River water before it joins the Verde? Mr. CoE. I am unable to tell. I have drunk water out of the Salt River above where it joins the Verde, and it tasted very good to me. Further than that, I have no knowledge. The Chairman. Perhaps it was improved by your necessities ? Mr. CoE. It might have been. Mr. Sloan. Have you observed the Pima lands irrigated from the pumping station ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you any knowledge of the conditions resulting from that class of irrigation? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are there any canals connecting from the Arizona Canal, across the Salt River Reservation, particularly that part desig- nated for the Camp McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. Not at present. Mr. Sloan. Who was the official representing the Indian Office who asked the McDowell Indians to take allotments upon the Salt River Reseravtion, if you know? Mr. CoE. At what time? Mr. Sloan. At any time. Mr. CoE. Well, there have been various officials that have talked the matter over with the McDowell Indians. Mr. Sloan. Were you present at any such talk? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Were you one of those officials? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What reasons did you offer to them for taking their allotments on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. We offered them an allotment on the Camp McDowell Reservation and then proposed that they take 5 acres of farming land on the Salt River Reservation, because we thought it would be much more economical to supply water to those lands and because we thought it was the best thing for those Indians to do, to accept that present of 5 acr(\s which we offered to them. Mr. Sloan. You offered it to them as a present? Mr. CoE. We offered it to them in addition to the lands which they now have at Camp McDowell. Mr. Sloan. And without affecting their rights upon the Camp McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What character of allotments was offered to them on the Camp McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. If you will pi-rmit nie, I have the proposal made to them here and I will just read it to you. Mr. Sloan. I think that is already in the record. Just tell us what you know. Mr. CoE. They were offered 50 acres at Camp McDowell to include as nearly as possible their homes that they now have, the allotments to conform as nearly as possible to the farms they were cultivating, EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 523 and, in addition to that, they were offered this land under the Arizona Canal on the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Sloan. What character of allotment was the 50 acres offered them on the McDowell Reservation, was it cultivated land or grazing land? Mr. CoE. It would include the cultivated land and also include the grazing land. Mr. SiiOAN. They would not, however, come within the term " irri- gated " lands, would they ? Mr. CoE. I think so ; part of them. They are at present irrigated. Mr. George. Where do they get their water? Mr. CoE. From the Verde River. Mr. Sloan. Was that included in the offer you made to them as the representative of the Indian Office? Mr. CoE. Was what included? Mr. Sloan. The right to retain the water upon the lands they are now cultivating. Mr. CoE. I do not remember that that was mentioned specifically. Mr. Sloan. Had you any instructions from the department upon which you could base that idea ? Mr. CoE. This proposal was made by the supervisor of allotting agents, Carl Gunderson. Mr. Geoege. When? Mr. CoE. I can not give you the exact date, but it is on that paper. Mr. Sloan. Were you pi-esent when that offer was made to them ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was it so expressed by the supervisor of allotting agents ? Mr. CoE. It was expected, I believe, that he would make that rec- ommendation to the office. Mr. Sloan. It was not something that he could possiblj^ offer to them without further conference with the department. Is that cor- rect? Mr. CoE. He was sent out there to take up the matter with the In- dians and to get their wishes in the matter, and it was presumed that whatever he recommended would be done. Mr. SnxiAN. Have you ever heard since being in charge of any such offer being directly made to the Indians that they should retain their lands on the McDowell Reservation if they accepted the irrigated lands on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. CoE. No ; I do not believe I ever heard it so expressed. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not allotments made to them designated as grazing lands would carry with them the water rights that they now use ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir; as long as they used the water rights and did not lose them by nonusage. Mr. Sloan. How Avould that come about ; through operation of law or by the decree in the case of Hurley v. Abbott ? Mr. CoE. I should say by operation of law. Mr. Sloan. Do you know how many acres of land could possibly be irrigated on the McDowell Reservation at the time the Govern- ment took charge of it or its purchase from the settlers? Mr. CoE. I do not know how many acres could be irrigated.^ I know that many acres were surveyed as being irrigated— in 1905, I believe it was. 524 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPABTMBNT. Mr. SixjAN. What number of acres were so designated ? Mr. CoE. 1,300 acres. Mr. Sloan. Do you know anything of cattle grazing upon the McDowell Keservation? Mr. CoE. I know of no cattle grazing there except that they stray in occasionally from the forest resen^e. Mr. Sloan. How near is the forest reser\^e to the cultivated lands of the McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. I should say about 2^ miles, or 3 miles possibly. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of cattle frequently straying in in that way ? Mr. CoE. I do not know of their frequently doing so. I know of their occasionally straying in during the dry season. The range cattle graze on the forest reserve out on the hills and mountains, and when the water holes dry up out there they sometimes come to the Verde River to drink. That would be about every four days; they come in at night and drink. Mr. Sloan. How large a number would there likely be, or do you know of many such circumstances? Mr. CoE. No ; I can not give you any certain number. We have tried to corral the cattle when they come in, and we got 13 head, I believe, at one time. Mr. Sloan. Do you collect damages for the Indians under such circumstances ? Mr. CoE. Whenever we can catch the cattle ; j^es, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have their crops been damaged to any extent in this way? Mr. CoE. I have only known of two or three fields to have been damaged. Mr. Sloan. What proportion of the fields were injured or de- stroyed under those circumstances? Mr. CoE. I remember going to see one field last summer, probably a little over a year ago, that was a small field of about 5 acres, and probably one-fourth of it was pretty badly damaged. We succeeded in catching the cattle at that time. There were 13 head of them, and we charged a dollar a head damage, $13, which was given to the Indian. Mr. George. Do you know of any field damaged where you did not get the cattle ? Mr. CoE. I have known one. Mr. George. Only one? Mr. CoE. Yes sir. Mr. George. Since you have been at the agency ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. At that time how far were you located from Mc- Dowell ? Mr. CoE. At that time I was living at Camp McDowell. The Chairman. How long since you left there? Mr. CoE. I left there on the 8th of March, 1911. The Chair^ian. Wliat was the custom before that as to notifying you when damages occurred ? Mr. CoE. It was the custom ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Was it invariable or only occasional? Mr. CoE. I do not know whether it was an invariable custom or not ; I can not say. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 525 The Chairman. "Would you have knowledge when the cattle were actually on the irrigated lands ? Mr. CoE. Not usually, because, as I said, that usually happened in the night. The Chairman. And you would not know about it at the time it was happening? Mr. CoE. It was usually reported to me the next morning. The Chairman. Who captured the cattle referred to ? Mr. CoE. The Indian whose field was damaged, in connection with the Indian police. The Chairman. Of course, if he did not manage to do it, it would not be done? Mr. CoE. No ; that was the only way it could be done. The Chairman. It might happen a great many times without any of the trespassing cattle being captured, and even without the com- plaint reaching you ? Mr. CoE. It would not have happened a great many times ; it might happen occasionally. Mr. George. You spoke of it occurring every fourth night ; what did you mean by that ? Mr. CoE. I meant by that that range cattle, where it is quite a dis- tance to water, usually come in to drink about every fourth or fifth day, so that probably about that time they would come in and get a drink. Mr. George. During the drought ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. How long would the drought last? Mr. CoE. Well, it is pretty difficult to answer that question. Mr. George. Is it days or months or what ? Mr. Coe. Perhaps six weeks or two months. Mr. George. So that every fourth night during six weeks or two months the cattle might stray? Mr. CoE. They might. Mr. George. What precautions did you take to stop that ? Mr. Coe. We notified the owners of the cattle to remove them — ^to keep them away from the reservation. Mr. George. Did you take any other precautions against their coming in again ? Mr. Coe. I gave instructions to the police to patrol the reservation thoroughly and to see that they were kept out. Mr. George. You know of only one case where cattle were caught and $13 collected — that is, $1 a head ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. George. You know of no other cattle caught in that way ? Mr. CoE, I do not. Mr. George. You know of only one other instance where cattle came in and did damage where you did not catch the cattle? Mr. CoE. I only know of one instance where there was damage done to the field. Mr. George. I suiDjjose I should modify my question by saj'ing that you do not claim that you caught the cattle at all, they were caught by the owner of the damaged field ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir ; and the Indian police. Mr. Hanna. Did this $13 cover the damage they did ? 526 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. I think so ; yes sir. Mr. George. In addition to that did the coming in of the cattle injure the ditches in any way? Mr. CoE. I hardly think so, because where the cattle came in the reservation was on the lower end, and there was no farming on the west side of the reservation where the cattle came in; consequently they did not cross the ditches. Mr. George. But they did come to irrigated land ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. And ate up the crops on the irrigated land? Mr. CoE. They ate up this one crop I have mentioned. Mr. George. "Would you hear anything about the damaging of ditches ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir; I think so. Mr. George. And in that case what would you do ? Mr. CoE. We would have to repair the ditch, and, if we could, find the owner of the cattle that did the damage. Mr. George. It is the custom for the agency to repair the ditch that is put out of order in any such way ? Mr. CoE. The agency has not been doing that; the Indians have been doing it. It is the custom of the agent to notify the Indians whenever the ditch boss said that the ditches needed repair, notify the Indians who were receiving water that they should go and do some work on the ditch, repair it. Mr. George. And then what? Mr. CoE. And then they would repair the ditch. Mr. George. And who paid for it? Mr. CoE. There was not any pay. It was for their own benefit. Mr. George. You just notified them to repair the ditch that they were getting water from for their own use? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. So that if cattle came in there and destroyed the ditch you would simply notify the Indians to repair their ditch? Mr. CoE. I do not know of any cattle ever destroying a ditch. Mr. George. We had some testimony that they did destroy the ditches. The Chairman. Injured, probably, rather than destroyed. Mr. CoE. I have never been notified where any cattle ever de- stroyed a ditch, or injured one. Mr. George. It is not the policy of the agency, at any rate, to put it in rejDair, or to assess any damages against the cattle for the repair of the ditch? Mr. CoE. As I said, I have never known, it has never been re- ported to me, where any cattle injured a ditch; consequently, there could be no instructions on that point. Mr. George. You said a few moments ago that there were in- structions, that you notified the Indians to go and repair the ditch. ]Mr. CoE. When the ditch needed repairs, not when it had been destroyed by cattle. Mr. George. I understood you to say Mr. CoE. Because I know of no case where it has been destroyed by cattle. JSIr. George. Damaged in any way? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 527 Mr. CoE. Whenever it is damaged in any way Mr. George. By cattle? Mr. CoE. No ; not by cattle ; by the growth of moss, and so on — it was the custom to inform the Indians that their ditch needed work- ing, and they would repair it. The Chairman. Whose field was it that was damaged on the occa- sion you spoke of ; do you remember ? Mr. CoE.It was an Indian's, named Yuma Pat. The Chaihbian. ^'\^as there more than one concern having cattle on the range there ? Mr. CoE. There are many of them; yes, sir. The Chairivian. The cattle from the different herds would not all come in on the same night, would they ? Mr. CoE. Not likely ; no, sir. The Chairman. So that there might be cattle every night, and yet the same ones come in only once in four or five days ? Mr. CoE. It is possible. But I would like to show you the map. These lands that I spoke of, where I saw the damaged crop, were in here, on this side of the river [indicating on map] . The Chairman. That would be near the south end of the reser- vation ? Mr. CoE. Near the south end of the reservation, on the east side of the Vei'de River. The Chairman. You are pointing to the west side. Mr. CoE. I was going to say that there are no farming lands on the east side. The farming lands are on the west side of the river, in here [indicating]. The forest reserve is over here. Those cattle that I speak of come across here to drink, and on this occasion they crossed the river and got into this field. I do not think, however, that it is very often that they cross the river. Mr. George. No cattle came from the west ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Hensley. They had gone back, then, and stayed four days^ Mr. CoE. I do not know how long they stayed. That is the general nature of range cattle, to go in there every four or five days for water. Mr. George. But, as the chairman pointed out, cattle getting a drink to-night would not come back until the fourth night, and, in the meantime, there might be another bunch of thirsty cattle to-morrow night? Mr. Coe. There might be. Mr. George. So that you might have a visitation every night of cattle. Mr. Hanna. Is there not any water up in this forest reserve? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir ; I think so ; at times. Mr. George. You get your information only as you are notified by the farmer or the Indian who is injured ? Mr. Cob. That is all ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, were they not guilty of a criminal viola- tion of the law when they let the cattle get off the forest reserve and onto the Indian reservation ? Mr. CoE. I believe there is a law whereby, if the cattle are caught, they can be assessed damages. The district attorney down there in 528 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. Arizona informed me, however, that we had to catch the cattle before we could do anything with the cattle. Mr. George. If an Indian did not catch the cattle, then he did not get any damages ; therefore, why complain to you ? Mr. CoE. When he complained to me I sent out the policeman to help him catch the cattle. The Chairman. Is not this the fact about it, Mr. Coe, that the owners of the cattle there paid scarcely any attention whatever to the rights of the Indians in the matter; that they were not in the least afraid that the trespass on the rights of Indians would be followed by any prosecution, or by any particular trouble ? Mr. Cob. No, sir ; I do not think so. The Chairman. How do you account for it that it was the custom for all those cattle people to permit their cattle to trespass on the Indian reservation whenever the cattle wanted to ? Mr. Coe. It was not the custom. The Chairman. I understood your testimony to be that, when the cattle wanted to, in a natural way, every fourth day, they wandered down to the Verde Eiver to drink, and they could not get there with- out trespassing on the Indian reservation. Mr. Coe. I understood myself to say that this was only in a period of drouth, and the cattle owners were always notified, as I said before, and I have always found them very willing to take care of their cattle, and to see that they kept off the reservation. Mr. George. But the period of drouth, you said, lasted for six weeks. Mr. CoE. The cattle were not there that long, though. Mr. George. That was the period of drouth, however, and they might be there every night during the six weeks. Mr. CoE. When I was first notified of the trespass, the owner of the cattle was notified as quickly as possible that his cattle had been trespassing on the reservation. Mr. George. You did not know unless you caught the cattle. Mr. CoE. We knew the owners that had cattle on the forest re- serve nearby, and we notified them that probably their cattle were in the bunch, and to look after them. Mr. Hensley. What kind of an irrigation plant have they there on the McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. They divert the water from the Verde River by means of a brush dam. i\Ir. Hensley. ^Yho constructs that dam? Mr. Coe. The Indians. Mr. Hexsley. How long has the dam been in existence; how long has the plant been in operation ? Mr. Coe. The dam has to be constructed about twice a year. Mr. Hensley. Have you any supervision over this dam and this plant at all? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Is there no rock in that country out of which a dam could be built? Mv. CoE. Thej^ use some rock to weight the brush down. Mr. PIensley. How do they construct this dam ? Mr. Coe. They first cut a lot of poles and stick them in the bed of the stream. Then they cut the brush and put it on the upstream side. EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. 529 Mr. Hensley. They wade out in the stream and put these posts down ? Mr. CoE. Wade out in the stream, or sometimes drive a wagon out. Mr. Hensley. How deep is the water? Mr. CoE. It usually is not very deep. Mr. Hensley. About what depth? Mr. CoE. The dam as constructed last spring, when we built it, was between 2i and 3 feet. Mr. Hensusy. How do they drive these posts down ? _ Mr. Coe. The soil is very soft, practically sand, and they usually just take the post and churn it in. Mr. Hensley. Do they not use rocks to drive it down ? Mr. CoE. Perhaps occasionally. I never saw one use a rock, how- ever. Mr. HENSL.EY. Did you see them use anything else? Mr. CoE. I never saw them do anything except churn them down in the sand. Mr. George. Did you lend them any tools? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. George. What kind of tools? Mr. Coe. Scrapers, axes, and shovels. Mr. George. To build the dam, I mean ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. George. Hammers of any sort ? Mr. CoE. I do not recall that I did. We had hammers, and I sup- pose so, if they asked for a hammer. Mr. George. Did you yourself take sufficient interest in the thing to bring along some hammers or to show them how to use the hammers ? Mr. CoE. I took sufficient interest to send a team up to assist them every day, and two of the Indian employees also. Mr. George. And to go up yourself? Mr. Coe. I went up practically every day ; yes, sir. Mr. George. And they just churned these poles down into the soft sand to construct a dam ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Why did they not make a permanent dam ? Mr. Coe. Too expensive. Mr. George. But they were making a dam twice a year. Why not make a dam that would last for several years, for all time? Mr. CoE. The Indians themselves could not possibly do so. Mr. George. What about the agent of the Indians ? Mr. Coe. He could no do it unless he had funds. Mr. George. Did he ever recommend such a thing to the Govern- ment? Mr. Cob. I never did; no, sir. I do not know what my prede- cessor may have done. Mr. George. You thought it was sufficient to let them make these temporary dams twice a year? Mr. Coe. I was pretty sure that the Indian Office would not, on my recommendation, spend several thousand dollars for a perma- nent dam. We have an engineer who looks after that matter. Mr. George. Why did you think it would cost several thousand dollars ? 530 EXPBNDITUEES IN THE INTBRIOE DEPAETMBNT. Mr. CoE. From the nature of the stream. Mr. George. That was your own opinion, your own judgment? Mr. CoE. Reenforced by the judgment of others. Mr. George. What others? Mr. CoE. The report of Mr. Code, chief engineer. j\Ir. George. The engineer thought it would cost several thousand dollars ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. To put in a permanent dam, and for that reason you did not recommend that to the Government ? INIr. CoE. I did not. Mr. Henslet. How long did it take these Indians to make these dams ? Mr. CoE. It depended on how much damage had been done by the last flood. Usually two or three weeks to put in the dam and repair the head of the ditch. Mr. Hensley. It was done, then, at practically no expense? Mr. CoE. Very little. Mr. George. Is there stone in the country that could be used? Mr. CoE. There is not any very good stone that could be used for a permanent dam, that I Iniow of; no, sir. Mr. George. Stone and cement and sand? ]\Ir. CoE. There is plenty of sand, but I imagine it might cause a great deal of hauling to get plenty of stone. Mr. George. Was this contemplated more than once? Did you actually deliberate on this subject of putting in a permanent dam there at any time during your agency? Mr. CoE. I never did; no, sir; because I never thought it was a very feasible proposition. ]\Ir. George. But it had been used by the Indians for many years? yiv. CoE. It had be^n used by the Indians and the white settlers previous to the occupancy of the Indians in the same manner that the Indians use it now, by means of a temporary dam. Mr. George. But there is a constant flow of good water there? Mr. CoE. When you can get it out there was ; yes, sir. Mr. George. AA'hat do you mean by " when you can get it out " ? Mr. CoE. There occasionally comes one of those floods down there about the time you need water pretty badly, and it sometimes takes two or three weeks before you can get the water out again. Mr. George. Yes ; but there is a constant flow of good water there, and with a permanent dam there would, in spite of the floods, be a constant flow for irrigation? Mr. CoE. There is a constant flow in the river; yes, sir. ]Mr. Sloan. You said that, in your own judgment and from con- ferences with others, several thousand dollars would put in a perma- nent dam. What sum, if any, was agreed upon between yourself and those Avith whom you discussed, that question? Mr. CoE. I do not think any sum. Mr. Sloan. Was anv limit named within which amount it might be built ? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I do not think so. ]Mr. Sloan. What sum, then, in your judgment, would be suf- ficient to put in a dam? EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 531 Mr. CoE. I am not qualified to answer that question; I am not an engineer. Mr. Sloan. You have already Said that you gave the matter some consideration and discussed it with other people. What conclusion did you come to as to the amount, from your consideration and that information ? Mr. CoE. As a general conclusion I should say that it would cost not less than $10,000, and probably considerably more. Mr. Geokge. Did you get those figures from the engineer ? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I do not think I did. Mr. George. Did you get any figures from anybody ? Mr. Coe. I do not think that I got any definite figures. I have talked the matter over, as I said before, a great many times with different people down in that section. Mr. George. Who, beside the engineer, did you talk with about it ? Mr. Coe. Mr. Goodwin, superintendent of the Phoenix Indian school. Mr. George. What should he know about it? Mr. CoE. He ought to know more than anyone else about it, because the Camp McDowell Agency was under his jurisdiction from the time of its inception up until some time in 1909, 1 think. Mr. George. But he was not an engineer any more than you ? Mr. CoE. No; he was not an engineer. Mr. George. So that you have only the haziest kind of a notion of the expense. You arrive in some way at $10,000 or more, but you do not know why $10,000? Mr. Coe. As I said, I am not an engineer; that is just my ■ Mr. George. But you have a definite figure in your head, and you do not explain why. Mr. Coe. I explained that the wide, sandy character of the river bed there, in my judgment, would make it a very expensive proposi- tion to put in a dam down there, and materials for building a dam are pretty expensive in that section of the country. So that was just simply an opinion of a man not an engineer, that it would cost at least that much money to put in a dam. Mr. George. And so you did not think it was worth while recom- mending that to the Government at any time? Mr. CoE. I did not recommend it at any time; no, sir. Mr. George. Did you say anything against it to the Government? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. George. You never reported anything against a permanent dam? Mr. Coe. I do not recall that I ever did; but I would not state positively. I may have said that it, in my judgment, would be a very expensive proposition. I never made any definite recommendation. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, do you know what the greatest acreage of land that was irrigated at any time in the McDowell Valley, the Verde Valley, or the McDowell Eeservation was? Mr. Coe. About thirteen hundred acres; 1,308, I believe, to be exact. The Chairman. At that time was there anything else than a tem- porary dam in the river? Mr. Coe. No, sir. 98240— No. 14—11 2 532 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Is there any particular reason now operating that was not in force then ? In other words, if it was done then, could not that many acres be irrigated now without a permanent dam ? Mr. CoE. I doubt very much if it could now, because at that time there was a great deal of land under what was known as the Jones ditch. The head of that ditch is washed out, and I am not sure that it could be replaced. The Chairman. Has there been any change in the conformation of the ground there ; and if so, what caused it ? Mr. CoE. There has been quite a good deal of ground that has been washed away by the floods of the river; how many acres, I could not say. The Chairman. What do you mean — just sand washed away? Mr. CoE. Farming lands. ■ The Chairman. What is the character of this farming land — ^that is, what element is in it besides the sand? Mr. CoE. It is sandy loam. The Chairman. Could you give anywhere near the proportion of sand to loam? Mr. CoE. No ; I could not do that. The Chairman. You spoke a while ago about cattle coming to the river in the drought. What did you mean by drought? Is it not drought all the time. down there? Mr. CoE. There are times when it is a good deal dryer than at others. The Chairman. What I especially refer to now is, you do not get' any moisture or water from rains there? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. When? Mr. CoE. We get rains through the winter time and again through the summer, in July and August. The Chairman. Are they reliable? Mr. CoE. I think so. The Chairman. Did the water in the pools which you say the cattle, drank, when they could find it, come from rains? Mr. CoE. Partially; and from springs. The Chairjian. How much of the time did the cattle out on the forest reserve, on the range, have water to drink that came from rains? Mr. CoE. I could not say from rains entirely ; but from rains and springs I think practically all the time. The Chairman. Did the springs dry up too? Mr. CoE. I have never known them too; no, sir. The Chairman. Then there is no absolute necessity for the cattle coming to the river at all, is there? Mr. CoE. No; I do not think so. Mr. George. Not even in times of drought? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. George. There is no drought, then ? Mr. CoE. They have periods out there that they speak of as droughts. The Chairman. Who were these cattlemen, Mr. Coe? ilr. Coe. The man we collected the damages from was a Mexican named Monroy. EXPENDITURES IK THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 533' ' The Chairman. How many head did he have in his herd? Mr. Cob. I do not know. The Chairman. About? Give us some idea? Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge whatever. ' The Chairman. Would it run up in the hundreds ? Mr. CoE. I haven't the least idea of how many cattle he might own. The Chairman. Who else had cattle interests in that neighbor- hood? Mr. CoE. I do not recall the names now. There were two or three other Mexicans. The Chairman. Would their herds mingle, do you know ; or were they kept apart? Mr. CoE. I suppose they mingled, to a certain extent. Mr. Hanna. They are all branded, are they not ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And how were they taken care of ? Mr. CoE. I have very little knowledge of the cattle industry, and I am not qualified to say how they were taken care of. The Chairman. Did you deal with the cattleman when this dam- age was collected ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How was the damage arrived at? Mr. CoE. I went to the Indian's field and looked it over and de- termined what I thought was the amount of damage, and told the man he should pay us that, which in that case was a dollar a head I considered would pay for the damage done. The Chairman. A dollar a head for those that were actually captured ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I presume you do not know whether that was the exact number of cattle that were in the field ? Mr. CoE. I think there is no question about that. They captured them right there. The Chairman. You mean they captured all that got into the field? Mr. CoE. I think so. They did not tell me anything to the con- trary. The Chairman. Do you know whether those 13 were the only ones that came that way, or whether they were but a small part of the herd that came along ? Mr. CoE. I think they were practically all that were there. The Chairman. Of course, you have no personal knowledge about it? Mr. CoE. I have not. The Chairman. A^Tiere, from his field, were your headquarters ? Mr. CoE. About 4 miles north. The Chairman. The field north, or you were north? Mr. CoE. I was north of the field. The Chairman. What part of the reservation were your head- quarters in? Mr. CoE. Just about the central part. The Chairman. That would be about 5 miles from either end of it? Mr. CoE. Nearly; yes, sir. 534 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPABTMENT. The Chairman. How many policemen were on that reservation at that time? Mr. CoE. One. The Chairman. Where were his headquarters? Mr. CoE. His home was about a half a mile from the agency. He reported every day. The Chairman. Is he an Indian? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Of course, he could not have peirsonal knowledge- of those things very well either, could he? Mr. CoE. ^ot always; no, sir. The Chairman. If we have testimony, and it is correct, that tres- passes occurred quite often, and crops were destroyed quite fre- quently, you did not know anything about it; these injuries were not reported to you? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Who is the head farmer there? Mr. CoE. We have no farmer. The Chairman. At any time? Mr. CoE. Not since I have been in charge; no, sir. The Chairman. Just you and the policeman? Mr. CoE. And another Indian, caned as assistant clerk or inter- preter. The Chairman. Has he any other duties ? Mr. CoE. His duty is that of interpreter. The Chairman. Has he any other duties than as interpreter? Mr. CoE. He is supposed to do little things around the agency that might be required. The Chairman. What is his name? Mr. CoE. Leonard Hay. The Chairman. He was really, in a sense, an employee or servant of the superintendent, was he not? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Was he not there to do anything that was required of him ? Mr. CoE. Not unless it was something connected with the depart^ ment or the property of the Government. The Chairman. Who paid him? Mr. CoE. The Government. The Chairman. How, much ? Mr. CoE. $20 a month. The Chairman. And what was the policeman's name? Mr. CoE. Mike Nelson. The Chairman. An Indian? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who paid him ? Mr. CoE. The Government. The Chairman. How much? Mr. CoE. $20 per month. The Chairman. They both got their pay through you ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And they reported to you and got instructions from you? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 535 The Chairman. Did they get anything else than the $20 a month ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Any house privileges? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. The policeman, of course, had a horse or horses? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who furnished them? Mr. CoE. They were his own. The Chairman. And he furnished the horses' feed ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He just got the $20 a month, and no more ? Mr. CoE. That is all. The Chairman. Was he expected to devote all his time to the service ? Mr. CoE. No; he was expected to have a little time to conduct his own farm. The Chairman. How would that time be determined ? Mr. CoE. He reported each morning at the agency, and if there was no particular thing to be done, he was allowed to go to his home. The Chairman. That is he reported to you? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And it was entirely for you to say whether he would work for the Government that day or for himself? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. So, if he had any time to devote to farming, it was simply because you chose to let him have it ? Mr. CoE. Simply because he had no Government duties that con- flicted with it. The Chairman. Wlien you say " Government duties," after all, it figures down, simmers down, to what you chose to have him do that day? Mr. CoE. Of course, I was in charge of the reservation, and things that I thought a policeman should do I gave him instructions to do. The Chairman. Let me make it quite plain, now. Suppose that in fact there was nothing to do some particular day, and yet that day you told him to remain there, he had to remain? Mr. CoE. He remained until I excused him ; yes, sir. The Chairman. So that when you say " Government duties," you mean your wishes? It comes out at the same place, does it not? Mr. CoE. I would not express it that waj'. The Chairman. That is where it lands. Suppose somebody else was superintendent, and he was not a reasonable man ; he could keep the policeman there every day of the year, could he not? Mr. CoE. I presume so. The Chairman. You know so, do you not ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Let me ask you to explain a few things for me that were brought out in the examination by Mr. Sloan a while ago. You said the last census enumeration showed 213 Indians on the reservation. Mr. CoE. As I remember ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Part of them were absent a good deal ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many ? 536 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. I do not know that I could give any figures. The Chairman. Approximately. Mr. Cob. I think probably about 30 of them. The Chairman. Where were they, and what were they doing? Mr. CoE. Working off the reservation — most of them at the towns of Ray, Ariz., and Kelvin, Ariz. The Chairman. Those who were absent were absent earning money ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What kind of work, as a rule, were they doing? Mr. CoE. Generally working about the copper mines at Eay or employed in railroad construction between Ray and Kelvin. The Chairman. They were good workers ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And they do not shirk real, hard, manual labor? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; they are very good workers. The Chairman. You say about seven-eighths of the land held by families there is cultivated ; how about the other eighth ? Why is it not cultivated? Mr. CoE. Simply because the Indian does not see fit to cultivate it. That is the only reason I know. The Chairman. Do you recall any of those who do not cultivate their holdings? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Name a few of them. Mr. CoE. The policeman, Mike Nelson, is not cultivating his entire place. The chief, Yuma Frank, has two places; one of them is" not being cultivated at all. The Chairman. How far apart are they ? Mr. CoE. About three-quarters of a mile — possibly a mile. The Chairman. Any others? Mr. CoE. Thomas Surrama is not cultivating all of his land. The Chairman. Has he any more than the one tract of 10 acres? Mr. CoE. He has 10 acres that he is cultivating, and he has a claim on probably 10 acres more that he is not cultivating. The Chairman. Is the claim one that gives him the possession of it and the right to cultivate it? Mr. CoE. There is a house on it, and he is living by the side of the house and using the house as a storehouse. He would have the right to cultivate it; yes, sir; if he desired. The Chairman. Do you know whether they have suiRcient means to cultivate the additional ground or whether the lack of means has anything to do with it? Mr. CoE. I believe they have the means ; yes, sir. The Ciiairjian. To what do you attribute their failure to culti- vate it? Mr. CoE. Ten acres seems to be about as much as any Indian wants to cultivate; and therefore, if they have a larger tract than that, they just simply do not put it under cultivation. The Chairman. You stated to Mr. Sloan that they had not added any to the improvements the white settlers had put on the ground before they bought it. Are you reasonably sure you are right on that point? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. ' BXP?NPITXJRES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. 537 The Chairman. We have some testimony of at least one person, probably more than one, digging wells on their tracts. Do you know whether that is true or not? Mr. CoE. I do not know positively; no, sir. I had reference par- ticularly to buildings. They may have dug one well or more than one well ; I could not state. The Chairman. They have not added to the buildings, you mean? Mr. CoE. They have not. The Chairman. Have there not been some instances where they did add to the buildings ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I think not. Mr. George. Are you sure not? Mr. CoE. 'My personal knowledge only extends to the 15th of January, 1910. The Chairman. You stated to Mr. Sloan that their horses are very small and light Indian ponies. "Wliat kind of horses have the white settlers there? Mr. CoE. They have two classes of horses. They have the cow horses, which are not very much larger than the horses belonging to the Indians; and they have for farming work and freighting a heavier animal. The Chairman. What is the right size of horse for that climate and country? Mr. CoE. I should say about 1,200 pounds. Mr. Hensley. Twelve hundred? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What attempt has been made to induce the Indians to improve the breed of horses? Mr. CoE. I do not know. The Chairman. Did you make any? Mr. Cob. No, sir. The Chairman. There was testimony here by one of the Indians, when asked to compare their horses with some on the street out here, and by other means to give his ideas, that many of them weighed, according to his impression, as much as 800 pounds. Mr. CoE. I presume they have a number that weigh 800, but I should think the average would be a little over 700. The Chairman. That would be very nearly the other. Where do they get the fence joosts you say they make money out of? Mr. CoE. They ciit them off of the reservation. The Chairman. Is there much timber on the reservation? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. What kind of wood? Mr. CoE. Mesquite wood. The Chairman. They have the right to cut it and work it into posts ? Mr. CoE. Under certain restrictions; yes, sir. The Chairman. And you handle the posts? Mr. CoE. No ; the Indians are allowed to do that exclusively. The Chairman. How do they dispose of them? Mr. CoE. They haul most of them to the town of Scottsdale and sell them. The Chairman. What do they get out of them, Mr. Coe; what is the price of posts, on an average ? 538 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. CoE. Of course, that varies with the character of posts. I think from about 9 to 15 cents ; perhaps, for extra large posts, a little more than that. The Chairman. You speak of the land there in the Salt Eiyer Val- ley as being of excellent quality. Of course, you referred in that to the constituent elements of the soil, sand and loam, I suppose ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How does it compare with the Verde Eiver Valley in the ingredients or elements in it ? Mr. CoE. I have no chemical analysis of either of the soils, but this particular portion I was speaking of compares very favorably, in my judgment, because it is the very head of the Salt River Valley. The Chairman. That would mean, I suppose, that it has at least as large a proportion of loam mixed into the sand as there is in the Verde Valley f Mr. CoE. I should judge practically the same. The Chairman. The quality of the soil — that is, its productivity- depends on the amount of loam mixed in the sand, I suppose ? Mr. CoE. To a large extent. The Chairman. If it is pure sand, even with water it would not produce much? Mr. CoE. I have seen some soil that, by looking at it, you could not tell but it was pure sand, and it was very productive. The Chairman. Did you dig down into it to see what the subsoil was? Mr. CoE. I have seen it dug down into to the depth of 8 or 10 inches. The Chairman. And it was all sand ? Mr. Cob. All sand. The Chairman. But the roots of plants go deeper than 8 or 10 inches ? Mr. CoE. I do not believe that the roots of the crops they raise, principally wheat, go deeper than that. The Chairman. And they got good crops off the sand and the water ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They would get better if there was more loam in the sand, would they not ? Mr. CoE. They raised a pretty good crop as it was; I do not know whether it would have been better or not. The Chairman. What I want to get is your knowledge of the proportion of loam, or any foreign matter of vegetable origin, that is in the sand in this Salt River country, as compared with the Verde Valley. Mr. CoE. Taking the Salt River Valley as a whole, I would judge that there was a little less proportion of loam than in the Verde. The Chairman. You are familiar with this Arizona Canal, which goes through the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. With the upper part of it ; yes, sir. The Chairman. The upper part would be the part next the Verde Eiver, or the Salt River ? Mr. CoE. The part of it flowing to the Salt River Reservation. The Chairman. It is a high-line canal ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOK DEPAKTMENT. 539 The Chairman. That is, it is brought along the highest line the water will follow ? Mr. CoE. I understand so. The Chairman. And, of course, without pumping it can irrigate no land higher up than it is ; all the land it irrigates would be to the south of it? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I notice on the map before me that all the Indian reservation where you propose to allot them is above this high-line ditch. Mr. CoE. Your map must be incorrect, then. The Chairman. That would be pretty hard on Mr. Newell. Mr. CoE (examining map). The land we proposed to offer to these Indians, and did offer to them, was in sections 17, 20, and 21, if I re- member correctly, below the Arizona Canal. The Chairman. But all the land you offered them was in class C, was it not? Mr. CoE. It is so given, as class C, on the reclamation map ; yes, sir. The Chairman. And the reclamation map, which I handed you, shows that class C lies entirely above the Arizona Canal, does it not ? Mr. CoE (examining map). I do not understand, Mr. Chairman, that the portion colored blue on this map is class A, B, or C land, but simply land that could be irrigated. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the map which goes with Judge Kent's opinion? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Is not all the land which is included in class C colored white on that map, and is not all that above the high-line canal ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. George. Have you ever studied that map ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. You will notice that the Arizona Canal is given as heading at the Arizona Dam on the map, following down until we come to section 17, in range 6 east. The Chairman. All that is in class C ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. But, according to the map you just showed me, that land is all irrigable land. The Chairman. Now, take the map before you — that is, the map that accompanies Judge Kent's opinion, and let me call your atten- tion to sections 2, 11, and 14; 3, 10, and 15 ; 4, 9, and 16 ; 5, 8, and 17, or most of it ; 6, 7, and 18 ; 1, 12, and 13 ; 2, 11, and 14 ; 5, 10, and 15 ; 4, 9, and one-half of 16 ; 5 and most of 8 ; 6 and most of 7. All those sections are above the high-line ditch? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And could be watered only by pumping? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. If that way. Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Some of those may be at a very considerable elevation above the ditch? Mr. CoE. They might be; yes, sir. The Chairman. In fact, in all probability, much of it is, because there are some mountain peaks indicated along the map as being in 540 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. that territory. In sections 4, 6, 8, and 9, you notice a peak known as Shelton Peak. Probably the land in that vicinity would all bfe too high to be irrigated even by punaping. Mr. CoE. That is rough, waste land. The Chairman. And that is true of other portions of it. What proportion of the Salt River Reservation, to which you propose sending these Indians, would the sections I have indicated make? Mr. CoE. It was not the intention to offer those Indians any of the land above the Arizona canal. The Chairman. But you notice on the canal the words "Salt River Indian Reservation " are printed in the very land that I have described to you? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. That is part of the Salt River Reservation. That land, practically all of it, from what you notice there as Shelton's Peak, west, has already been allotted to the Pima Indians as grazing land. The Chairman. The Pimas and the Mohaves are not friendly, are they? Mr. CoE. I think so. They visit to a greater or less extent. The Chairman. Are you not aware that there is an old feud ex- isting between the Pimas and the Mohave- Apaches? Mr. CoE. I am aware there used to be; but, to a certain extent, I am sure that is dying out. The Chairman. But is not dead? Mr. CoE. In some instances it is. The Chairman. Have not the Mohaves given you as one reason for not Avanting to move there that they did not want to be so close to the Pimas? Mr. CoE. Some of them have. But I want to say that in several cases there has been intermarriage between the Mohave Apaches and the Pimas. The Chairman. One case is that of David Gilbert ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Is not his wife a Pima ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman What is she? Mr. CoE. She is a Yuma-Apache, which is practically the same thing as a Mohave-Apache. The Chairman. Coming back to the map that accompanies Judge Kent's ojiinion, you notice below, or south of the Arizona Canal, the great majority of the land is marked as being in class C? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Who made that classification of A, B. and C, the irrigable land; and Avhat is the authority for it? Mr. CoE. That was made, Mr. Chairman, long before I had any knowledge of conditions in the Salt River Valley. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge of who made it, or why it was made, or what the authority was for making it? Mr. CoE. Except such as I get from the decree. The Chairman. Is that the only knowledge you have of it? In other words, if it were not for the decree you would not knoAv there was such a classification, would you ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPAETMENT. 541 The Chairman. Is there a classification of other lands down there^ as A, B, and C, not included in this decree, or before the decree was made ? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I believe not. The Chairman. Then the decree is the real authority for the classification as A, B, and C, and of course the marking of the land as A or B or C, and the map which is a part of the decree, absolutely determine what is A, what is B, and what is C, does it not? Mr. CoE. I hardly like to say that it does. The Chairman. So far as you know, it does ? Mr. CoE. Because this decree is so made that the order can be changed at any time on application. The Chairman. But it has not been changed ? Mr. CoE. It has not been ; no, sir. The Chairman. It stands to-day as the decree of the court? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And whatever on this map is marked white is in class C? Mr. CoE. As it stands to-day, I believe so. The Chairman. We are not so much concerned with the things of to-morrow as of to-day and yesterday. Could you estimate the pro- portion of the lands in classes A, B, and C in the proposed Mohave- Apache portion of the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. As shown on this map No. 2, all the lands that have been offered these Indians are white land, C land. The Chairman. That means that they would have less water rights than lands in either class A or class B ? Mr. CoE. I hardly know. The Chairman. It is rather singular that you would not know. It is your business to know. Mr. CoE. Class C lands have been, I believe, getting as much water this past summer The Chairman. I am not speaking of this summer or any summer, but the rights under tlie law that tliese lands in these different classes have; not by grace or by accident, but what they have and may be entitled to by law. Mr. CoE. I suppo^ic they would come after A and B. The Chairman. The classification is for a reason, and in classify- ing it it is according to the rights of the land, and class A has the first right, priority of rights, Avhatever they are, class B follows, and class C is last ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You spoke with Judge Kent something about these water rights; but Judge Kent could not give you any informa- tion in conversation as to what the law was, or the legal rights of any particular land, could he? Mr. CoE. No; I suppose not. He just simply gave me an intima- tion of -R-hat he probably would do. The Chairman. It was a conversation, I mean; it was entirely unofficial ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. ■ The Chairman. The judge never knows what he is going to do until he does it, and always reserves the right to change his mind 542 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. until he has acted. I am a little surprised that he would talk to you about what he intended to do in a legal way. Mr. CoE. What we were speaking of m no way affected his deci- sion. Mr. George. Was this before his decision ? Mr. CoE. It was after his decision. Mr. Hensley. You had better correct your statement, then, be- cause your statement heretofore was very plain that it was prior to the rendition to the decision. Mr. CoE. I did not intend it so. Mr. Hensley. It was that way, Mr. Coe ; I do not think there is any question about it. The Chairman. You stated it had been proposed to give them ad- ditional land on Salt River; who proposed it? Mr. CoE. The department. The Chairman. Who ? The department is not anybody. Mr. CoE. The Indian Department. The Chairman. AVho; what individual? Mr. CoE. I could not say just exactly who. The Chairman. Was it in writing or in a conversation ? Mr. CoE. In writing. The Chairman. Writing by whom, or to whom ? Mr. CoE. I do not know that I quite get the idea that you want to bring out. The Chairman. In addition to the 5 acres of irrigated land which they were to get, you stated that it had been proposed to give the Mohave Apaches, when they moved, additional land in the Salt Kiver Reservation ; that is the substance of the statement you made. Mr. CoE. I want to correct, then, what I have just said. That did not come from the department, but from Supervisor of Allotments Gunderson. The Chairman. In a written communication? Mr. CoE. He made a written proposal of the allotment, which I just gave you. The Chairman. That is the one you handed me a while ago? Mr. CoE. Yes. The CiiAiRaiAN. That appears to me now, and in fact is, a mere minute, unsigned by anyone. Was the original signed ? Mr. Coe. I do not know ; I presume so. Mr. Gunderson retained that. The Chairman. Do you know what his authority was for making such a proposition to the McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. I do not. The Chairman. Would his oiiice — that is, the official position he occupied — give him such authority? Mr. CoE. I should think so. The Chairman. You mean that he could, in and of himself, be- cause of his official position, make a proposition as to giving lands to the Indians which would be binding upon the Government? Mr. Coe. I suppose that he would have to make his recommenda- tion to the Indian Office, and it would have to be approved there, of course, before it was binding. The Chairman. Then his proposition was only a tentative one; he was offering the Indians something and asking them to accept it, EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPARTMENT. 543 when he did not have the authority to close the matter if they did accept; is that right? Mr. CoE. He was visiting the reservation under instructions from the Indian Office to take this matter up. Just how far his authority extended under that instruction from the Indian Office I am not in a position to say. The Chairman. The Indian Office, of course, would mean Com- missioner Valentine? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were those instructions in writing? Mr. CoE. I do not know. The Chairman. Where is Mr. Gunderson ? Mr. CoE. His home is in Vermilion, S. Dak. The Chairman. Is he still in the Government service? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Since when did he cease to be ? Mr. CoE. I do not know the exact date. I think sometime in April ; about that time. The Chairman. You spoke, in answer to Mr. Sloan's question quite a while aga that it was one of the officers who asked the Indians to go to Salt iliver. Did you refer to Gunderson then, or to some one else? Mr. CoE. I could hardly say until I heard the question. The Chairman. I could not give you the whole question ; it is too long ago for that. That is all I have in mind now. (Thereupon, at 12.30 o'clock p. m., the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The committee reconvened, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 3 o'clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. Present also, Messrs. George, Hensley, and Hanna. TESTIMONY OF CHARLES E. COE— Continued. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Coe, do you know if during the drought season there is sufficient water upon the forest reserve for the needs of cattle that are pastured there ? Mr. Coe. I do not know to my own personal knowledge, but I would suppose that the officials of the forest reserve would not receive ap- plications or grant permits unless they would suppose there would be sufficient water to water the cattle. Mr. Sloan. How far into the forest reserve adjoining the McDow- ell Reservation on the east are you familiar with that country ? Mr. Coe. In a general way, for perhaps 40 miles. Mr. Sloan. What do you know, then, of the water holes and springs necessary for watering cattle grazed upon that immediate territory ? Mr. Coe. They are sufficient, I think. . Mr. Sloan. Is there no season of the year when, along the adjoin- ing part of the forest reserve next to the McDowell, the only water that the cattle have is that of the Verde River ? 544 EXPENDITUBBS IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. I have never been over into that country in the extreme dry season, and I could not state positively, but I believe there is' always water in the forest reserve in that section. Mr. Sloan. You do not know of your own knowledge, however? . Mr. CoE. Not positively ; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are there any permits for grazing cattle upon the McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then all the cattle that come upon that reservation are trespassing cattle, are they ? Mr. CoE. Except what the Indians own. Mr. Sloan. Do the Indians own any? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. How many? Mr. CoE. About 60 or 75 head, I think. Mr. Sloan. Where are they pastured on the McDowell Reserva- tion? Mr. CoE. All over the reservation. Mr. Sloan. Are any of them inclosed in pastures ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Is any requirement made of the Indians having cattle upon the reservation as to herding or caring for them otherwise?. Mr. CoE. No, sir. • Mr. Sloan. Have you had any complaints of damage to crops or ditches that was done by the Indian cattle on that reservation? . Mr. CoE. I have had some complaints as to damages to crops; not to ditches. Mr. Sloan. What number of cattle, if you know, are pastured on the forest reserve immediately adjoining the Camp McDowell Res- ervation ? Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge. Mr. Sloan. Is there a water commissioner to look after the ditches on the McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. You stated before that the Indians would respond to work at the requirement of the water commissioner. Whom had you in mind when you made that statement? Mr. CoE. I believe that I said the ditch boss, instead of the water water commissioner. That refers to an Indian that looks after the distribution of water. He is not on any salary at all, but is simply an Indian that understands that work, and the other Indians have chosen him to act as such. Mr. Sloan. Does his position give him any authority under your oiRce as an Indian Bureau employee? Mr. CoE. Not directly. Mr. Sloan. Do you assist him in any way in your official capacity? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. In what way? Mr. CoE. Whenever he decides that the ditch needs cleaning he conies and tells me, and we notify the Indians who are interested in the ditch that they should get out and do the needed work on the ditch. Mr. Sloan. Do the Indians respond readily to your call? Mr. CoE. Yes. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 545' Mr. Sloan. And how are they about doing the work ? Mr. CoE. In what way? Mr. Sloan. Do they work well; are they good workmen? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Do they respond in the same way for fixing the dam when it needs it? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. About how many men respond to that call when nec- essary ? Mr. CoE. Well, I am unable to give the number of men. All of them that get water under the ditch ; all of the farmers usually do. Mr. Sloan. What means have they, besides their personal labor,- to put in on this kind of work ? Mr. CoE. They use their teams, when they have one, and the tools are all furnished by the Government — the scrapers and the plows necessary for plowing the ditch and things of that kind. Mr. Sloan. Do they generally do that work under your direction ? Mr. CoE. Well, not my immediate direction. Of course, I have a general supervision over it, but the actual work is done under the immediate direction of the ditch boss. Mr. Sloan. \¥hat supervision have you given it personally ? Mr. CoE. Whenever they have been working on the ditch I have gone out nearly every day to see how they were progressing and to make any suggestions that I thought would tend to move the work along more rapidly. Mr. Sloan. Have you advised them as to the construction ? Mr. CoE. Not particularly, because on those temporary dams there seems to have been only one form of construction that could be em- ployed, and they need no instruction along that line. Mr. Sloan. Have you at any time advised or attempted the begin- ning of any permanent work along that line? Mr. CoE. A dam? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Why not? Mr. CoE. Because a permanent dam has not been considered a feasible proposition. Mr. Sloan. Did you at any time give that idea of permanent con- struction any consideration? Mr. CoE. Well, of course I have thought of the matter a good deal in connection with all other irrigation matters on the reservation. Mr. Sloan. Di'd you have any other idea in mind than that it was not feasible, because of which you did not attempt any perma- nent work? Mr. CoE. That was the only thing ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. With whom have you discussed or counseled in regard to the permanent constructive work? Mr. CoE. I do not think that I have counseled with anybody. Mr. Sloan. Then your idea of the permanent work never went beyond your own thought in the matter? Mr. CoE. I believe that there is a printed report bearing on the constmction of a permanent dam at McDowell, in which it was re- ported not to be feasible. As that was prepared by a competent engineer, I saw no reason why I should give it any more thought. 546 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. "Was that the only reason that you had for giving no further thought? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How often during the time that you were on the res- ervation has it been necessary to reconstruct the dam, or dams, whichever it may be? Mr. CoE. Three times. Mr. Sloan. The same dam each time? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And that within a period of how long a time ? Mr. CoE. Since I took charge of the McDowell Keservation, in January of 1910. Mr. Sloan. And when did you leave? Mr. CoE. March 8, 1911. The third construction, however, was not completed when I left. They were still working on it. Mr. Sloan. How many men and teams were employed on that work? Mr. CoE. I do not know exactly how many. Mr. Sloan. Were there more than 20 or less, according to your best judgment? Mr. CoE. I should say there were less than 20 teams and more than 20 men. Mr. Sloan. How long was required at each of the three times, as far as you know ? Mr. CoE. The first time I believe required a little more than three weeks. That was in the spring of 1910. When the summer rains washed out the dam in the year 1910 the damage was not so great. It only took, as I remember, some four or five days' work. The winter rains of this past winter did a great deal of damage, and I believe it required between three and four weeks' work the last time. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether the soil has been tested for the Surpose of determining its quality, in view of allotments upon the [cDowell Resetrvation ? Mr. CoE. I do not know. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether any such examination has been made upon that proposed part of the Salt River Reservation that is to be allotted to the McDowell Indians? Mr. CoE. There has been a general examination of the soil made. 1 do not think there has been any analysis made, but it has been tested by digging and testing for depth of soil and gravel, and so forth. Mr. Sloan. When was that test made? Mr. CoE. About one year ago. Mr. Sloan. By whom? Mr. CoE. By the supervisor of ditches on the Salt River Reserva- tion and myself. Mr. Sloan. Was that during the time j'ou were still located at McDowell? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Was that part of the Salt River then under your jurisdiction ? Mr. CoE. The Salt River Reservation was placed under my juris- diction on the 1st of July, 1910, and this examination of the soil took place about that time. I am not sure whether it was a little bit before or a little bit afterwards, but near that period. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 547 Mr. Sloan. What was the principal part of your work while located on the McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. I had general supervision of the Camp McDowell Eeser- vation under the direction of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, und I also had to teach the school a good part of the time. Mr. Sloan. You were not a regularly employed teacher, were you ? Mr. CoE. We had no teacher, and if we had school it devolved upon myself or my wife to do the teaching, and we did it, she a part of the time and I a part of the time. Mr. Sloan. What attendance did you have? Mr. CoE. What attendance? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. I cannot give the exact figure, but I think it was some- thing like 27 Mr. Sloan. That was your average attendance, about? Mr. CoE. No ; perhaps the average attendance was a little less than that. That was the enrollment, as I remember. The average attend- ance would have been probably about 24. Mr. Sloan. And how large an area was there, or what was the greatest distance from which children came to attend that school? Mr. CoE. Between 3 and 4 miles, the farthest, I think. Mr. Sloan. Was it a day school? Mr. CoE. A day school. Mr Sloan. Did you give any meals there, at all ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was it necessary for the Indian children attending to bring with them their noonday meal ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Was there any issue of clothing made to those children? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you do anything during the time that you were there to permanently advance those Indians homes or work there? Mr. CoE. I think so. I tried to. Mr. Sloan. Tell us what you did? Mr. CoE. I advised them as much as possible in the preparation of their land for seeding, and always furnished them tools to do the work with when they came and asked for them. It is pretty hard to tell everything that I did do. An Indian superintendent has to do ■practically everything. Mr. Sloan. Did you see that they had proper seed at the proper season of the year? Mr. CoE. I gave a good many of them seed ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. By whom was that furnished? Mr. CoE. It was furnished from the seed that were raised on the Government farm. Mr. Sloan. How large a Government farm was there there ? Mr. CoE. We had about 10 acres at that time. Since that time the river has washed about 4 acres out of the way. Mr. Sloan. And who did the farming on the school farm ? Mr. CoE. It was under my direction, and the work was done by the Indians, to whom tools had been issued in payment for the things they had received. 98240— No. 1^-11 3 548 EXPENDITURES IN olks INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. And how miiny different Indians wore employed in that way? Mr. CoE. I am unable to slate how many. Mr. Sloan. Did you give opportunities to those wlio needed such implements ? Mr. CoE. Yes; always. Mr. Sloan. And was the entire farming and harvesting done in that way? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Was any of the crop disposed of otliorwise than to the Indians ? Mr. CoE. What we fed to the Uovernnient teams was, None was disposed of otherwise, though. Mr. Sloan. Is there a school at this time at ("lamp McDowell? Mr. CoE. There was up until the 30th of June. Seliool is in vacn- tion now. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not it has been discontimied there now? Mr. CoE. It has not. Mr. Sloan. Wlio has charge of the work there now ? Mr. CoE. Mr. T. H. Coldwell had from the 8th of March, the time I left until the 1st of June. After that Mr. Byron A. Sharp, teacher at Salt River, was sent up there temporarily. Mr. Sloan. And is he there now? Mr. CoE. I presume so ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you at any time advise the Apaches to remove to Salt River? Mr. CoE. I, on a good many different occasions, advised them that it would be to their interest to take some irrigable land on the Salt River Reservation ; but I was always very caretul to assure theui that whenever they did so, they relinquished nothing at Camp McDowell. Mr. Sloan. Did you inform them on such occasions that they would retain their water rights at Camp McDowell ? Mr. CoE. I do not think the question of n water right was ever brought uji. Mr. Sloan. I notice in a letter under date of July 11, 1910, that you said : It Rooms to me that uiifler tlio dooroo of tlao dlslrlct coiu't the McDowell Iiidiaus' rlKht to hho wntor is nillioi- iirooiirlous. Mr. CoE. That referred to the decree in rega rd to the use that they are now taking out at Camp McDowell. Mr. Sloan. What caused you to think that their water right wai precarious in that respect? Mr. CoE. The decree, in the last paragraph, in regard to the Camp McDowell Indians, says : The iirosont (llvorslon and iiso of wntoi' iipdu tli<» siild laiHl In the Onmp McKowoll Itosoi-viillon by those liidliuiK mny lie iiuilntiiliiod. Tliat is all there is in the d(>cn>(\ in regai'd to (he water riglits on the Camp McDow(^ll Reservation. From tliat I infci-red that there might be some question later on whellicr that was a good right or not. Mr. Sloan. What would be the circct upon (h(^ lands on the McDowell Reservation to I'lil oiT its Avater supply? Mr. CoE. It would render them valueless from an agT'lcnltural standpoint. I BXPENDITUBBS IN THB INTERIOR BEPABTMENT. 549 Mr. Sloan. They would then be the same character of desert and arid lands that other lands in that country are? Mr. CoE. They would be grazing lands ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are all the arid or desert lands there grazing lands ? Mr. CoE. Practically all of them; yes. Mr. Sloan. Are they used for that purpose? Mr. CoE. On the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Sloan. On the McDowell Reservation or the adjoining reser- vations — Salt River — the adjoining country? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. How many acres of land are necessary to graze one head of cattle? Mr. CoE. I do not know. Mr. Sloan. Did you have any conversation with the judge of the district court there as to this water right which you thought was precarious ? Mr. CoE. I think I did not. Mr. Sloan. Here in a letter dated July 11, 1910, you say : I have taken this matter up with the district court. When you refered there to the district court, whom do you mean? Mr. CoE. That perhaps is not worded as it should be. I refered to a conversation with Judge Kent. Mr. Sloan. And what was the reason and purpose of your talk with Judge Kent? Mr. CoE. Some of the Indians had expressed a willingness to take some farming land in the Salt River Reservation or under the Ari- zona Canal on the Salt River Reservation, and I went to see Judge Kent to ask him if part of that water that they were using on the Camp McDowell Reservation, if some of the Indians should take up the farming land lower down, would be available for their use down there. That was the only conversation, I believe, that I had with Judge Kent. Mr. Sloan. Where did you meet Judge Kent? Mr. CoE. In his chambers in Phoenix. Mr. Sloan. Were you directed by any one to see him in reference to the matter ? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I was just simply trying to get all the informa- tion I could on the subject. Mr. Sloan. Did you constilt with the United States district attor- ney in reference to the matter ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you confer with anyone else in reference to it? Mr. Cob. I had a general talk with Superintendent Goodman about it. Mr. Sloan. What was your purpose in these diflFerent conferences you had in reference to that? Mr. CoE. Well, as we understood the matter, the Indian Depart- ment was trying to make a present to those McDowell Indians of this farming land down there, because it could be irrigated mwch more economically than the land could above, and of course, as superintendent, it was up to me to get all the information I could on the subject. Mr. Sloan. Were you directed by the department to induce them to remove to the Salt River? 550 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. No ; I do not think that the department ever intended a removal. I was directed by the department, I believe, to put the matter up to them and try to convince them of the value of the farming land on the Salt Eiver Eeservation, but, as I previously stated, in all those conferences we were careful to let the Indians know that they did not lose their homes at McDowell. Mr. Sloan. Were you directed or authorized to offer special in- ducements to any who would take the initiative in making that move ? Mr. CoE. My recollection is not exactly clear in that respect, but I believe that I was authorized to encourage any of them that might; select this land, as much as possible. Mr. Sloan. Did you offer any such inducement? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. What was the advantage, if any, in making them a present of this land, as you have stated ? Mr. CoE. It meant, on the part of the Indians, the getting out of this six or seven weeks' labor every year on the canal and tne dam. They would have none of that to ao on the Salt Eiver Eeservation. Mr. Sloan. How would they secure their water rights on the Salt River Eeservation ? Mr. CoE. I think you had better call on Mr. Code, the engineer, to answer that question. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not it would be necessary to purchase the water right on the Salt Eiver Eeservation? Mr. CoE. All the Indian lands under the reclamation project are assessed, the same as all other lands, their proportionate share of the cost. This land, of course, would have to pay its share of that assess- ment. Mr. Sloan. Do you know what it costs to secure water rights under that system, per acre ? Mr. CoE. Not exactly; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you ever heard what it was, as to any part of it? Mr. CoE. I have heard it estimated at $40 to $45 per acre. Mr. Sloan. Were there any additional charges, in addition to the $40 or $45 per acre? Mr. CoE. I do not know. Mr. Sloan. Does each acre of land so watered have to pay ditch assessments in addition to that, do you know? Mr. CoE. I do not know. It does not on our Salt Eiver Eeserva- tion proper, because the ditch is wholly within the Indian reserva- tion. Mr. Sloan. But the Indians there have to keep up all repairs? Mr. CoE. They have to clean the ditch occasionally. Mr. Sloan. They do that in place of the assessments that are made against white people on the outside, or others getting water benefits in that way? Mr. CoE. I suppose you might express it in that way. Mr. Sloan. Do these lands, and each acre of them, have to pay something toward the payment of a salary for a water commissioner? Mr. CoE. I am unable to state whether they do or not. Mr. Sloan. About how many acres of land have been set aside on the Salt Eiver Eeservation for the use of allotments for the McDow- ell Indians ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBRIOE DBPAETMBNT. 551 Mr. CoE. I am unable to tell you how many acres have been re- served for their use. Mr. Sloan. Is there suflGicient, with 5 acres for each person, to allot the Indians of the McDowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Your question is whether there is sufficient land to take the McDowell Indians and allot them at 5 acres apiece on the Salt Eiver Reservation? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. My answer to that is that there is sufficient land in the tract of land we have in mind — of this farming land that we have down here — to give each Indian of the McDowell Indians five acres. Mr. Sloan. How many McDowell Indians are now living upon that part of the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. None of them. Mr. Sloan. Have any allotments been made upon the Salt River Reservation on the land that has been set aside of the McDowell Indians ? Mr. CoE. Forty-two of the McDowell Indians have selected the lands that they wanted for allotment down there, selecting five acres apiece — farming land. Whether the allotments have been completed or not, I am unable to say. Mr. Sloan. How many adults are there in that number ? Mr. CoE, As near as I can remember, about 18. Mr. Sloan. Have any improvements of any kind been made by the Indians so selecting allotments? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. How are their selections designated, if at all ? Mr. CoE. The land has been surveyed and a stake has been put, so that each five-acre tract can be located from an iron stake at the cor- ner, and the Indians that made these selections personally went around the corners and selected the lands that they wished to take. Mr. Sloan. Have members of the same family selected their allot- ments in contiguous tracts or not? Mr. CoE. They have; in contiguous tracts. Mr. Sloan. How many acres are necessary, according to your ex- perience and judgment, to furnish an Indian farmer with sufficient ground, under the circumstances as they are there, for the raising of sufficient grain and hay for the care and keep of themselves, their families, and teams, and seed for the following year? Mr. CoE. Of course the family would usually mean at least two, and it might mean a good many more. I should say that the ordi- nary Indian family could get along very nicely on 10 acres. If the family was larger they might require more. Mr. Sloan. Then if there were a family of two, and one of them was a member of that tribe and the other had an allotment upon some other reservation, the extreme amount that that one person could have allotted would be 5 acres, would it not? Mr. CoE. That would depend upon whether there were any chil- dren. I presume if there were children, the children might be entitled to an allotment. Mr. Sloan. But if there were no children and only two persons and one was allotted upon another reservation, would not that limit the selection in that case to only 5 acres? 552 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR nBPAKTMENT. Mr. CoE. It would ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And would that be sufficient upon which they could farm and maintain themselves and develop properly under the condi- tions in that country ? Mr. CoE. If it were properly irrigated and properly farmed, it might. Mr. Sloan. And still there is some doubt about it, even under those best conditions? Mr. CoE. There would not be if it was properly handled. Whether an Indian could get the most out of it at the present time, there might be some doubt. Mr. Sloan. What would be required in the handling of it, under such circumstances, to make it yield in that way sufficient for a family of two? Mr. CoE. It would have to be farmed rather, you might say, inten- sively to do that. Mr. Sloan. It would require the greatest skill on the part of the farmer in the first instance? Mr. CoE. It would require considerable skill ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. It would require the means, with teams or otherwise, and implements, and sufficient water, to give the best results ; is that true? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And what crops, under such conditions, would yield sufficient? Mr. CoE. The principal crop that the Indians raise is wheat. How- ever, they should raise a little alfalfa. Some of them do. Mr. Sloan. Taking those two products, intensively farmed under the best conditions, would that yield sufficient for a family? Mr. CoE. After the wheat crop is cut they take the same ground and plant it into corn or melons or beans, or all of them. The Chairman. Melons or beans or what, did you say ? Mr. CoE. Or corn, or all of them. Mr. Sloan. And could they raise sufficient, under such circum- stances, for a family? Mr. CoE. They do. Mr. Sloan. And who is it that do ? Mr. 03E. Several of the Indians are living there and farming less than 5 acres. Mr. Sloan. And supplying themselves sufficient for their needs ? Mr. CoE. They perhaps do a little work, in addition to that, off the reservation. I am not sure as to that. I want to state right here that I have only been actively in charge of the Salt River Eeser- vation since July 1, 1910, and have only been actually on the ground since the 8th of last March, and it is rather a large jurisdiction, and a great many Indians down there, and there are a good many things that I am not absolutely familiar with. Mr. Sloan. There are, however, under your jurisdiction some Indians who have been farming irrigated lands under the best con- ditions for some time, are there not ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are some of them successful farmers ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Are they getting ahead ? EXPENDIXUEES IN THE INTEEiOE DEPAETHENT. 558 Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. What quantity of land do those farmers handle ? Mr. Cob. I am unable to say just how much. I have one man in mind just now, who has quite a large family, and I think he is farm- ing a little more than 20 acres, and he told me that last year he maide $700 off of his alfalfa crop alone, not taking into consideration his wheat. Mr. Sloan. Then he is farming some of his children's land ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. What provision do you make for the care of the minor children's land under those circumstances? Mr. CoE. Up until last winter there were no allotments made, so that there was hardly such a thing as minor children's lands. An Indian just simply had an area fenced that was for the use of that particular family, and used it for himself and his children. Mr. Sloan. As the child grows up and becomes of sufficient age to desire to farm for himself, will not complications arise out of the parent' farming the child's lands? Mr. CoE. Whenever the child gets large enough to farm his own allotment, I presume it will be allowed to do so. I have not very much knowledge on that question just now. Mr. Sloan. Is it not possible that under those conditions the origi- nal family would be relegated to the use of 5 acres exclusively ? Mr. CoE." The family would have 10 acres. Mr. Sloan. Suppose it was not contiguous, and a child's land lay in between, and they were separated at some distance, with the home upon one 5-acre allotment; would not that be the effect of it? Mr. CoE. It would be very likely that it would be within such a ehort distance that it could be very easily cultivated from wherever the home might be. Mr. Sloan. What arrangement is there for roadways over these lands reaching different 5-acre tracts ? Mr. Cob. That question has not been worked out yet. Mr. Sloan. Then all these problems that are likely to arise in the natural course of development are yet undetermined in any way ? Mr. CoE. That is a problem that just as soon as the allotments are proved I understand is to be immediately worked out. You see, this Salt Kiver Keservation is just now in process of allotment. It is not completed, and none of the allotments, I believe, have been proved yet, and necessarily those problems can not be very well worked out until those allotments are proved. Mr. Sloan. How nearly have allotments been completed so as to be submitted for approval upon your Salt Kiver Eeservation ? Mr. CoE. I think they are about three-fourths completed. Mr. Sloan. What is the practice of your allotting agent? Does he send in certain schedules to be approved as he advances from one section to the other, or is he waiting until the whole is completed ? Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge. Mr. Sloan. I notice a statement here in your letter of July 10, 1910, as follows : I have been steadily working on the problem of removing the Indians from Camp McDowell to farming lands on the Salt River Reservation. Please tell us what you have done. 654 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPAKTMENT. Mr. CoE. I have just simply talked to the Indians in council and individually and tried to get them to see the advantage of taking this 6 acres that we were offering them on the Salt River Reserva- tion, trying to get them to see from a business standpoint that it wag to their advantage to take it. Mr. Sloan. Did you, in your conversation with Judge Kent, state to him Avhen the Indians would remove to the Salt River Reserva- tion? Mr. CoE. I did not. Mr. Sloan. Were you asked the question by him at all ? Mr. CoE. I do not think that I was. Mr. Sloan. Have you discussed that question with any of the oflS- cers of the Reclamation Service? Mr. CoE. I have talked with Mr. Hill, the supervising engineer of the Reclamation Service, several times. I do not remember now whether that particular question was ever discussed or not as to the time. Mr. Sloan. Did you employ anyone under you, directly or other- wise, to induce the Indians to remove? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you have under your employ a man by the name of Adams? Mr. CoE. I did not. Mr. Sloan. Do you loiow such a man? Mr. CoE. I know several men by the name of Adams ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Those who speak both the Spanish and Mojave Indian language ? Mr. CoE. I know nothing as to their ability in speaking those languages. Mr. Sloan. Did you suggest to the department, or request author' jty, to employ any such persons? Mr. CoE. I did not. Mr. Sloan. Are you acquainted with Charles Dickens, of the Mc- Dowell Reservation? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember any such statement as this : " Charlie, I want you to move to Salt River Reservation." And he said, "No; I don't want to go there. I got land here." And then you asked him why he did not wish to go, and he said that he had feed there for his stock, plenty of feed for his horses, and that he had sweet water, and he wanted to stay at home. Do you remember any sueh conversation? , Mr. CoE. I do not remember the particular conversation, no; iJe cause, as I have already stated, I have talked to practically all the Indians on the reservation at various times, and it would be impos- sible to recall any particular conversation. Mr. Sloan. In advising them as to its being to their best business interests to remove to the Salt River Reservation and take irrigable lands down there, did you tell them what was necessary in order to procure water rights ? Mr. CoE. I told them, I think, that the Government would furnish them an assured water supply. Mr. Sloan. Did you state whether they would have to pay for it or not, or how it would be paid for ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAKTMBNT. 555 Mr. CoE. That phase of the question was pretty nearly all taken up by Supervisor Gunderson. I was present, but had very little to say on it. But, as I recall, Mr. Gunderson said that the Gov- eriunent would pay for the water; would buy the water from the Keclamation Service. Mr. Sloan. Did he state from what fund that would be purchased or paid for ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you now know how it would be arranged to be paid for? Mr. CoE. I do not. That would be a matter for the Indian Office to arrange. Mr. Sloan. I think you said that the land had been tested for alkali or otherwise about the time you took charge of the Salt Eivar Reservation, July of- last year ? Mr. CoE. I said I believed that it had been tested for depth of soil and gravel. I do not think I mentioned the alkali, but it was tested for general appearance of alkali ; but no analysis of the soil had been made, to my knowledge. Mr. Sloan. Was a surveyor employed for that purpose ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. In your letter of July 11, 1910, you state: The next step will be to test the land for depth of soil, alkali, and so forth. After that the land selected wll have to be surveyed. Will your office send someone to do this, or shall we have it done by a local surveyor? I estimate that it will cost about $225 to have the surveying done by a local party. What do you state now as to that having been done or not ? Mr. CoE. That was not done at that time. The office informed me that the General Land Office would survey the entire Salt River and Camp McDowell Reservations sometime during that fiscal year, I believe, and that we should wait until they made a survey. There- fore we did nothing. Mr. Sloan. You have stated that the Indians — a number of them — leave the reservation to work at the copper mines and elsewhere. Do they, on such occasions, obtain a pass from you for that purpose ? Mr. CoE. Some of them do and some of them do not. Mr. Sloan. Is it the general requirement Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan (continuing). Among the white people of the Terri- tory that they should have that and the companies that employ them ? Mr. CoE. I do not think so. It is not a requirement of the Indian Department that they should have a pass ; but they sometimes think that they may be molested by somebody off of the reservation, some white officer, or somebody of that sort, and so they, for that reason, request that a pass be given them. Mr. Sloan. How many police officers did you have at Camp Mc- Dowell? Mr. CoE. I had one. Mr. Sloan. Did you have a court of Indians offenses there ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Who composed that court? Mr. CoE. Sacarabah, Sam Kill, and Jim Star, all Mojave Apache Indians. Mr. Sloan. Did they have a secretary ? 556 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. Mr. CoE. I acted as secretary when I was in charge of the reserva- tion, and previous to that time, when it had been under the charge of a farmer, I found that he had done so. Mr. Sloan. Was there a record kept of the action of that court? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What punishments were inflicted by them? Mr. CoE. I really dp not remember any particular punishments that were inflicted. I remember one case in which there was a dis- pute between two Indians as to a growing crop, and the judges heard the testimony and went down to the field and divided the crop. That is about the only thing I recall just now. Mr. Sloan. Did you take part in that division ? Mr. CoE. I was there as secretary of the court. I do not know whether I offered any suggestions or not. I do not think I did. I believe, too, that I did in that case. They asked me if I thought that what they said was all right, and I agreed that it was. Mr. Sloan. Have you a jail in that place? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you one where you are now? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. I notice in a letter here of April 25, 1910, the fol- lowing : There are no agency buildings except the farmer's cottage, and It will be necessary to erect some. I would recommend that this be done as soon as possible. There is needed an office, warehouse, jail, barn, superintendent's cottage, and a water system. That is in a letter signed by Charles E. Coe. What was the pur- pose of the jail recommended there? Mr. Cob. It is necessary to have a jail on nearly any Indian res- ervation for the temporary locking up of Indians when they be- come drunk and u,nruly, and things of that sort. Mr. Sloan. Who is to determine the question as to whether or not they are drunk or unruly or subject to imprisonment? Mr. CoE. The Indian police have general instruction not only from the superintendent, but also the United States commissioner, to arrest and confine any Indian that is drunk or any Indian that he finds in possession of liquor of any kind. Mr. Sloan. Does that apply within the jurisdiction of the reser- vation, or is it applied generally, wherever the Indian may be found? Mr. CoE. Of course, the superintendent's instructions would apply only to the reservation. The instructions of the United States com- missioner applies generally over the Territory. Mr. Sloan. Are there any other offenses for which they would be arrested by the police? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I do not think there are. All other offenses would be handled by the civil authorities — the local courts. Mr. Sloan. Have you ever issued an order for the arrest of asy Indians ? Mr. Coe. Not since I have been in charge of the Camp McDowell Agency ; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you since transferring from the Salt Eiver ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you at any time in your experience as an em- ployee of the Indian Service? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 557 Mr. Cob. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Where? Mr. CoE. Havasupai. Mr. Sloan. "V\Tiat was the occasion there of your doing so? Mr. CoE. A couple of Indians got drunk and got into a big fight, and I arrested them and restrained, them temporarily until they sobered up, and gave them a good lecture and turned them loose. Mr. Sloan. Have you arrested them or had them arrested for any other offences than drinking? Mr. CoE. I never have; no, sir. As I said, all criminal offences are handled by the local courts. Mr. Sloan. What are the local courts in that Territory? Mr. CoE. The third district court of Arizona, at that particular point. Mr. Sloan. And does the commissioner's court take the place of the justice of the peace generally in the Eastern States ? Mr. CoE. In Indian offences generally; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What is the jurisdiction of the court of Indian offences, generally ? Mr. CoE. The court has jurisdiction of petty offences committed on the reservation only. Mr. Sloan. Have you had authority to build the jail, as yet? Mr. CoE. I have not. Mr. Sloan. Have you renewed your application since that letter? Mr. CoE. I do not recall whether I have or not. I have had occa- sion to write the office a good many times in regard to those buildings, and I may have mentioned the jail at a subsequent time and may not have ; I am not sure. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember of demanding a letter from Charles Dickens that he had received through the mail ? Mr. CoE. I do not remember of demanding any such letter. I remember that Supervisor Gunderson had been told that he had such a letter that was addressed to him, but applied to all Indians, and I remember that I drove with the supervisor down to Charles Dickens's house and was with him when he requested Charles Dickens if he might read that letter. Mr. Sloan. What did Charles Dickens say ? Mr. CoE. I do not remember exactly what he said. He went into his house — or, Mr. Gunderson, I believe, first asked him if he had such a letter, and he said he had, and he was asked if he might read it, and he hesitated, as I remember, a few minutes, and went into the house and got the letter and gave it to Mr. Gunderson. Mr. Sloan. Did he not at first refuse to give it up? Mr. CoE. Not that I remember ; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember his saying something like this : No ; I will not let you read it. I did not ask you when you got your letter to let me read it, and I will not let you have it? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I do not remember anything of the kind. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember requesting a letter from anyone else? Mr. CoE. I do not remember of ever requesting a letter from any- one. I requested the chief to let me see a copy of a bill that was introduced in the House last winter, which I understood that he had 558 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPARTMENT. received ; aotid I had received none as yet, and I requested him to l£t me read that. Mr. Sloan. Where were you when you made that request of him? Mr. Cue. I belieM' in the office at McDowell. ilr. Sloan. Where were you when you made the request of Dickens ? IMr. CoE. I Avas with Supervisor Gunderson. However, I did not make that request. I do not want you to get that impression. Mr, Gunderson made that request. I was with Mr. Gunderson when he made that request at Charles Dickens's house. Mr. Sloan. Did you know to what that letter related before you saw it? Mr. CoE. I had an idea ; yes, sir. I had been told by some of the Indians. Mr. Sloan. Wliat did you understand it was ? Mr. CoE. That it was some advice in regard to this bill that I just mentioned that had been introduced. Mr. Sloan. Did you understand that it was in reference to tlie removal of the McDowell Indians and advising them not to remove- to that effect? Mr. CoE. Well, I do not think that we had a very clear idea of what the advice in the letter might have contained. That was the reason, I presume, that Mr. Gunderson requested permission to read the letter — so as to get that. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember writing to the department to the effect that some persons had been interfering perniciously and ad- vising them not to consider the allotment of lands on the Salt Eiver Reservation ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Was that before or after you requested those lettera from either Dickens or Yuma Frank? Mr. CoE. Before, I think. Mr. Sloan. Then, at the time you sought tliese letters you had that in mind, did you not? Mr. CoE. At the time I asked Yuma Frank for a copy of this House bill ; I simply wanted to see what it was. The office had not furnished me with a copy yet. Mr. Gundereon, when he requested the letter from Charles Dickens, I suppose was simply doing it for information. Mr. Sloan. He found a feeling on the part of the Indians in favor of refusing the allotments at McDowell, did he not? Mr. CoE. The feelings were mixed. One part of the Indians wanted the lands at McDowell and were not willing to take the ad- ditional land that was being offered them. Some of them wore ready to take those additional lands, and liavo already selected. Mr. Sloan. What percentage of the entire number? Mr. CoE. Well, it would be 42 out of 213 that have made the selec- tions. Mr. Sloan. Do you know how tlie waters that are used for irriga- tion in the Arizona Canal are controlled? Mr. CoE. How they are controlled? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. I do not quite get your idea. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 55^ Mr. Sloan. With whom is it necessary to contract in order to make a purchase of waters to be delivered through the Arizona Canal? Mr. CoE. At present the Arizona Canal is under the direction of the Keclamation Service. Mr. Sloan. Would the contract, then, be made directly with the Reclamation Service on the part of the Government or with the company known as the Water Users' Association? Mj. Coe. I think it would be made directly with the Reclamation Service. Mr. Sloan. Do you know what territory is covered by the com- pany known as the Water Users' Association ? Mr. Coe. In a general way ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Does that include the reservation lands of the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. It does in regard to the assessments for the cost of build- mg the project; yes, sir. As I understand, the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association is a corporation of the water users of the Salt River Valley who have incorporated and chosen officers, be- cause the officers of this association could deal with the Reclamation Service more economically and more speedily than the individual water users could do so. It is just simply an association formed for convenience of the water users. Mr. Sloan. Have they any exclusive rights of water through that project, or from it ? Mr. Coe. The association, you mean? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. The association has not. It is the individual tracts of land. Mr. Sloan. Have any of the Indians under your charge, or any of the lands in the reservation under your charge, contracts with the water users' association? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. State what they are. Mr. CoE. You mean the nature of the contract? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. CoE. I can best show you one of them. (Mr. Coe here handed to Mr. Sloan the contract referred to.) Mr. Sloan. In the contracts executed for reservation lands, does the agent or superintendent in charge make contracts for a large number of individual holders of allotments, or for each individual or separate tracts? Mr. CoE. At the time those contracts were executed there was no such thing as an allotment. The superintendent simply made a con- tract for a certain legal subdivision of land for and on behalf of the Pima Indians. Mr. Sloan. Are those the Indians that are now under your charge ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Geoege. That is in the western part of the reservation ? Mr. Coe. The southwestern part ; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you succeed J. B. Alexander ? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I did not succeed him. On July 1, 1910, the Salt River Reservation was segregated from the jurisdiction of the Pima Agency and placed under the jurisdiction of the Camp jNIc- Dowell Agency, and of course I gave Supt. Alexander a receipt for 560 EXPENDITUBBS IN THE INTBSIOB DEPABTMEHT. the property and took over the employees of the Salt Kiver Eeserva- tion on that date. Mr. Sloan. Where is the agency, proper, for the Pima Indians? Mr. CoE. At Sacaton, Ariz. Mr. Sloan. How many Indians are under the charge of that agency? Mr. CoE. I do not know ; something like 5,000, I think. Mr. Sloan. How many Pimas are under your immediate charge and direction? Mr. Cob. I am unable to tell you the exact number. I should say about TOO; possibly a few more. Mr. Sloan. How many acres of irrigated farm land are distributed among your 700 Pimas? Mr. CoE. In addition to those Pima Indians there are a few Mari- copas, and those Pimas and Maricopas together are now farming, as nearly as can be estimated, 5,200 acres. Mr. Sloan. What water rights have they covering the 5,200 acres? Mr. CoE. Well, the water right, or a part of it, is the oldest water right in the Salt River, or one of the oldest. The Indians located and made some improvements in 1878 and 1879, I am told, which was very early in the history of the valley, and have been using a certain amount of water since that time. Mr. Sloan. Those old water rights that you have referred to, will they come within class A as designated in the decree ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And about how many acres, if you know, are included in that class ? Mr. CoE. I do not know exactly how many acres are in that class. We have listed with the Salt River VaUey Water Users' Association 3,900 acres of land. Some of it is class B land — that is, the water was not put on that land as early as it was on the other land, and some of it was cultivated for some years and then was allowed to go back, so that it became class B land. You understand all that I am giving you now I have been able to get at from the records. I have no per- sonal knowledge of it at all. Mr. Sloan. Do you know how the class B water rights are paid for by the Indians under your charge ? Mr. CoE. They will be paid for in the same manner as the class A, as far as I know. That, of course, is largely, or, in fact, entirely, left to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Sloan. Perhaps I do not understand you, or else I am misin- formed. As I understand it, class A is an original appropriation of water rights that precedes benefits of any other class, and class B are water rights that are either available because of the flood waters of the Salt and Verde Rivers, or waters that are obtained from the Roosevelt Dam project — ^the Salt River project. Am I right in ref- erence to that? Mr. CoE. You have expert testimony from Supervising Engineer Hill of the Reclamation Service and Chief Engineer Code of the Indian Service on the subject, and perhaps you had better let them answer your question. I am unable to give a very good answer. Mr. Sloan. Have you been called upon to pay, at any time, for the water rights of class B for the Indians under your charge on the lands within your reservation? EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. 561 Mr. CoE. Notices of the regular assessments have been mailed to me by the secretary of the water users' association, and I submitted them to the Indian Office for consideration, and the Secretary of the Interior authorized their payment. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember, now, at what rate per acre those charges were? Mr. CoE. The last assessment was $2.40 per acre. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not there is more than one assessment each year? Mr. CoE. I understand that they are to be paid in 10 annual assess- ments; I suppose one each year. Mr. George. Is this for the construction work ? Mr. Sloan. My question was with reference to the water only. Mr. Hensley. And maintenance ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. The Chairman. Does the answer respond to your question? Mr. Sloan. It does not. The Chairman. If it was for maintenance only, why should it be limited to 10 years? Mr. CoE. It would be for construction, and I suppose maintenanpe also. I am not positively informed. It would be for construction, primarily. The Chairman. Now, let your minds get together on that. Mr. Sloan, will you restate the point you want to get to Mr. Coe ? Mr. Sloan. The amount which you have named, $2.40 per acre, is that an assesment for annual water rights, or is it a payment upon the construction of the original project? Mr. CoE. I do not believe it is either. I have not given the subject any particular study, but as I understand it, that is an assessment to cover the cost of a power canal and the erection of a power house, and office expenses ; $2.25, 1 believe, for the construction of the power canals, and the power house, and 15 cents for office expenses. Now, these power canals, there is a cross-cut canal that is proposed to be cut from the Arizona Canal, and at the lower end of it, where it de- livers water to some of the lower level canals, will be placed a power house from the generation of electrical power which will be sold to users throughout the valley, and the proceeds of the sale of this power will be used to apply on the cost of construction, and afterwards, of maintenance of the project. Mr. Sloan. Where is this power house and the power developed, the dam, whatever it may be, located ? Mr. CoE. It has not been located yet. It has been surveyed, but the work has not begun as yet. Mr. Sloan. And are those assessments only chargeable to class B land, do you know ? Mr. Cob. I think they are chargeable to all lands. Mr. Sloan. Will it be necessary, in order to properly irrigate class B lands, to use power in any way? Mr. CoE. No ; this generation of power is just simply, you might say, a side issu«, and one that is expected to become a very profitable one, and one that will help cut down the cost per acre of the con- struction charges and the maintenance of it afterwards. Mr. Sloan. You did not designate, in answer to my previous question, where this proposed power house would be located ? 562 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB DBPAKTMENT. Mr. CoE. I am unable to tell you exactly where. Mr. Sloan. Is it on the Salt Eiver or on the Verde River ? Mr. CoE. I can give you a general idea. Here is the present cross- cut [indicating on map] to the lower-level canal, and this proposed crosscut will, I believe, come down on this side of these mountains [indicating on map], and these lower canals will be served from, here [indicating on map]. The Chaieman. Give the names of those mountains, if they are shown on the map. Mr. CoE. I do not believe there is any name for them, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Give the township number or the range, or some- thing. Mr. CoE. I might say that it comes down to a point approximately about north of Tempe, Mr. Sloan. That proposed power canal is not within the reserva- tion limits, is it? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the Indians are contributing to the general recla- mation service within and outside of the reservation? Mr. CoE. Indian lands come in exactly under the same basis as all the other lands in the valley, and they are treated exactly alike. If this money is assessed on all the lands outside of the reservation, it is also assessed on the lands that are listed within the reservation. Mr. Sloan. Then the statement that I made before, that the In- dians are contributing to projects outside of the reservation as well as inside the reservation the same as other persons, is true, is it? Mr. CoE. I do not know how I can answer your question any clearer than by the statement I just made. Mr. Sloan. Well, I will put it this way: The Indians contribute to all parts of the Salt River project, both within and without the limits of their reservation ; is that correct ? Mr. CoE. No ; I do not believe that it is. Mr. Sloan. Then, will you explain how that money that you named is for a power plant outside of the reservation ? Mr. CoE. The reclamation of those lands under that project, as I understand, will cost so much money. There are so many acres that are benefited by it. Each acre is assessed its pro rata share of the cost of construction, whether it be outside lands or Indian lands. That is the idea that I have of it. So I would not say that the Indians were contributing to projects outside of the reservation, because it is a part of that project. They are only paying the same per acre as the outside lands are paying. Mr. Sloan. Well, the project includes a large area of country that is not properly Indian reservation? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And they, are all under the same general reclamation projects for development? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Now, I think, Mr. Chairman, that I have covered pretty generally everything except some matters of letters and ref- erences that I have not ready, and if I could have until to-morrow, morning I could finish up quickly with Mr. Coe. EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 563 The Chaiiuian. Have any of the members of the committee any- thing to ask Mr. Coe ? Mr. George. Yes, sir ; I have a few questions. The Chairman. Here is an opening. Mr. George. Mr. Coe, how many Indians are there on the Fort McDowell Reservation that you would like to have transferred to the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Coe. That is purely a question for the Indians themselves to decide. Of course, I have told them that I thought it would be bene- ficial for them to take this farming land on the Salt River Reserva- tion ; hut in the end it is up to the Indians. Mr. George. How many are there — how many Indians are there that you would like to see go ? Mr. CoE. I would like to see all of them take advantage of that offer. - Mr. George. How many of them are there ? Mr. Coe. How many of the Camp McDowell Indians ? '-s^.-' ' Mr. George. Yes. Mr. CoE. If I remember rightly, there are 213. Mr. George. Two hundred and thirteen. How much land would they receive — those 213 Indians — if you could send them all to the Salt River Reservation? Mr. Coe. If Mr. Gunderson's recommendation is carried out, they would receive 5 acres per capita for every one of them. Mr. George. That would be how many acres? Mr. Hanna. One thousand and sixty-five acres. Mr. George. In round figures, 1,000 acres? Mr. Coe. One thousand or 1,100 acres ; yes, sir. Mr. George. Yes. How much would these Indians have to pay per acre for the right of water — ^the use of water ? Mr. Coe. The Indians individually, I do not think, would pay any- thing. The Government would have to pay for their right to use that water, the same as we pay for the right of the Salt River Indians to water. Mr. George. How much would that be? The Chairman. $47,925. Mr. George. $48,000 a year? Mr. Hanna. That is not per year; that would be for the whole project. The Chairman. That would be for the whole project ; $45 per acre. Mr. George. On top of that there would be some other charges? Mr. Coe. I do not think there would. Mr. George. No maintenance charges or anything of that kind? Mr. CoE. The ditch which would water those lands would be very short, and the contour is such that it would be very easily watered, and there would be a little labor necessary to clean out the canals, which the Indians would do for themselves. Mr. George. And the Government would be willing to pay $47,000 to get class C land, or class C water rights, would it? Mr. Coe. I do not know. Mr. George. Well, but what have you been saying ? The Govern- ment is willing to pay for a certain amount of land for the Mc- 98240— No. 14—11 4 564 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Dowell Indians, and it would amount to $48,000, and that land is in class C. Mr. CoE. I understand that if all of them should agree to take that as farmiufi land, that would be equivalent to a class A water right for 1,300 acres. Mr. (teorge. AVell, but according to this map all of the land that is available for those Indians is class C land? Mr. Cob. j\lr. Hill tells me, since my testimony this morning, that that has been very much changed since that map Avas made; that there ha\o been several additions made to that, and the coloring of different tracts should be changed. The CiiAiujiAN. But is it possible to change that without chang- ing the decree, it being a part of the decree ? Mr. CoE. Mr. Hill tells me so. I have no personal knowledge Mr. George. But so far us you have knowledge, that would be for class C land? j\lr. CoE. As shown on tliat map, it would be for class C land. Mr. George. That has been the knowledge that you have had all along ? Mr. C'oE. That has been my idea all along, that if the Indians would accept that it would be class A land. Mr. George. It has been your knowledge all along that they would receive the class A land? Mr. CoE. No; it has not been my knowledge; it has been my opinion. Mr. George. Well, but your testimony has been to the effect that it would be class C land. Mr. CoE. As shown on that map. Mr. Geokoe. As shown on this map? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. George. Do you wish to change your testimony? Mr. Coe. I wish to say that it has been my opinion that if all those Indians should accept that, the water right would be transferred and it would become class A land; only in the event that the Indians would all of them take it. Mr. Hensley. What do you base your opinion on? Mr. CoE. On this decree. Mr. George. I will go back to that in a moment. You think that the Government would be willing to spend between $47,000 and $48,000 for water privileges for the Indians, and yet you had con- siderable doubts a little while ago about the Government being will- ing to spend $10,000 on a dam on the Verde ? Mr. CoE. As I expressed it, that dam on the Verde was a matter that I had very little knowledge of. I said $10,000, and possibly a good deal more; it might be 10 times $10,000. I have no definite knowledge as to what it would cost. Mr. George. But you have a definite knowledge as to about how much the Government would spend down in the Salt River country? Mr. CoE. I have a pretty definite laiowledge as to what it would cost ; yes, sir. Mr. George. So that you think it would be a distinctly better thing to take the McDowell Indians from this land which you think is good, and perhaps better than the Salt River land, and take them EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOB. DBPAETMENT. 565 down to this other land where they get third-gr;Kle hxnd, or class C land, and where the Government is distinctly under great money obligation ? Mr. CoE. They are asking $150 an acre for class C land under the Arizona Canal, now, that is not as good land as this land we have here, that those Indians could take if they will do so; so that it would look to me like it was, from a financial standpoint, a pretty big gift to those Indians, if they would take that. Mr. George. What would be the value of the McDoAvell land if the Government should build a permanent canal on the Verde ? Mr. Cob. It would be considerably less than that of the Salt Eiver Valley land, because it is 30 miles farther from market ; approxi- mately 30 miles. Mr. George. And there are no compensating circumstances? Mr. CoE. I do not laiow of any ; no, sir. Mr. George. Did you explain this to the Indians ? Mr. CoE. I did ; yes, sir. Mr. George. All these circumstances? Mr. CoE. Everything that occurred to me that might be of benefit to them to take up this land I explained to them. Mr. George. Did you explain to the Indians that the Government would prefer to spend $48,000 in buying them water rights down on this Salt River land rather than to pay for a permanent reservoir up there — a dam up on the Verde River ? Mr. CoE. I explained to them that the Government engineers did not think it was feasible to put in a permanent dam on the Verde. They already had one on the Salt River which supplied the Arizona Canal. Mr. George. And the Government would rather spend more money on the Salt River Reservation and less money on the Verde River ? Mr. Coe. We are not sure that it would be less money. It might be a good deal more on the Verde. Mr. George. Well, but if you are making an argument, you state you do not know about that? Mr. Coe. I am not making an argument. I am simply trying to tell you the things that have come to my knowledge since I have been here. Mr. George. If you were presenting this case to the Indians, you put it in the best way possible, no doubt? Mr. CoE. I do not suppose that we ever mentioned any amount of money that might be used at either place. Mr. George. How can you be so definite in the one case and so indefinite in the other ? Mr. CoE. In what respect ? Mr. George. In the Salt River case you are quite willing to accept the $47^000 or $48,000 ; but in the case of the Verde River Dam you are very indefinite. Mr. CoE. Because I do not know about the Verde River Dam. Mr. George. Very well, then; why was it not your business to know; to save the money of the Government rather than to propose to get these Indians to come out of the Verde River Valley and go down into the Salt River ? 566 EXPBNDITTJBES IN THE INTEKIOB 0EPAETMENT. Mr. CoE. The Indian service employs an engineer that looks after all question of construction and new irrigation plans and all that sort of thing. Mr. George. When the Indian service have a superintendent who is carrying out the policy of the Indian Bureau, is he not expected to know why he is doing that? Was it not your business to know what it would cost to build such a dam, and if the engineer should make certain jfigures as to the cost of that dam on the Verde, was it not your business to know what those figures are, approximately? Mr. CoE. I have never been furnished any figures ; no, sir. Mr. George. Do you know that there are any such figures? Mr. CoE. I do not know that there are any definite figures. I pre- sume that there might be, but I personally do not know. Mr. George. Then how do you know that it will cost a large sum of money to build such a permanent dam ? Mr. Coe. Because the Verde River at that point is nothing but a sand bar, three-eighths of a mile wide, and there is no bottom to it; and anybody that sees those floods come down that river a few times can see that it would be a very expensive proposition to try to put in permenent works there. He does not have to be an engineer to know that much. Mr. George. Then you would pass on that upon your own judg- ment, and not any scientific judgment whatever? Mr. Coe. I would that far; yes, sir. Mr. George. All right, Mr. Chairman ; I have got my information. The Chairman. Mr. Hensley, have you anything to ask? Mr. Henslet. About how many acres of land are watered upon the Verde by this crude system that they have ? Mr. CoE. At present ? Mr. Hensley. Yes. Mr. CoE. About 450 acres. Mr. Hensley. About what, in your judgment, would have been the cost of the construction of a dam that enabled them to use the water to water this amount of land ? Mr. CoE. Well, it would take some little figuring to get the exact cost. Mr. Hensley. Approximately? Mr. CoE. But I imagine that the approximate cost has been at least $3 per acre; possibly higher. Mr. Hensley. As against about $47 to $48 an acre down on the Salt River? Mr. Coe. This is an aannual charge I am speaking of. Mr. Hensley. Yes. Mr. Coe. Yearly? Mr. Hensley. That depends upon whether or not the floods would disturb them. Mr. Coe. You can always depend on it that they are going to dis- turb it. Mr. Hensley. How many acres are there on the Verde that can be irrigated ? Mr. Coe. I have not been able to get that definitely. The tracts on the Verde are very irregular. I have a map here, if you will let me show it. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 567 Mr. Hensley. About how many? Is it not about 1,200 or 1,400 acres of land there that can be irrigated ? Mr. CoE. There was at one time. It has been diminished now some- what by the floods. Mr. Hensley. Those Indians that are now located on the Verde, how are they getting along? Mr. CoE. They are self-supporting. Mr. Hensley. Satisfied? Mr. Coe. I think so. Mr. Hensu:y. They would rather remain there than go down in the Salt River country? Mr. Coe. Part of them would. Part of them would rather go. Mr. Hensley. As I remember, you stated a while ago that some- thing like 42 or 43 had already gone down and made their selections ? Mr. Coe. Forty-two have made the selection; yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Do you mean by that that they have moved down there? Mr. Coe. I do not. They are still living at McDowell. They have just simply selected the lands they would like to have down there in addition to their homes at McDowell. Mr. Hensley. In case they moved. Mr. Coe. In case they should desire to farm that land ; yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Do you not mean by that, that that depends upon whether or not the whole of the tribe would go down there and make their selections? Mr. CoE. No; I do not think it does. I think those people that have already made the selections will farm that land whether the rest of the tribe desire to farm it or not. Mr. Hensley. You have said several times that the selection of this land down on the Salt River does not necessarily mean that they relinquish their rights up on the Verde. Mr. CoE. I have always taken pains to assure ail the Indians that I have talked to in regard to that, that that would be so. Mr. Hensley. What assurance have you of that fact ? Mr. CoE. I have that letter from Mr. Valentine, a copy of his letter to the Indians themselves, for one, and I have, I think, two or three other letters from the office to that effect. Mr. Hensley. Does that include other water rights, such as they have now up on the Verde? Mr. CoE. It is not expressed whether it does or not. Mr. Hensley. You are in doubt, yourself, as to what rights they would retain should they go down to the Salt River country? Mr. CoE. It would be pretty hard, I suppose, to say exactly. They would retain all the reservation, all the lands, all the timber. The question of water rights is a pretty involved question, and it sometimes takes litigation Mr. Hensley. What would be the value of their lands up on the Verde, something like 35 miles distant from where they were down on the Salt River, if they were living on the Salt River on these 5-acre tracts that you propose giving them ? Mr. Coe. It would be valuable to them for grazing land and for a source of timber supply — wood. Mr. Hensley. Thirty or 40 miles distant. Mr. CoE. It would not be 30 or 40 miles distant. 568 EXPBNDITUBES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hensley. About how far? Mr. CoE. The nearest Indians on the Salt River Reservation, I think, are within 6 or 7 miles. Mr. George. Yes ; but you told me they would be at a disadvantage of 30 miles. Mr. CoE. I said they would be 30 miles from market. The Chairman. Thirty miles from market. Mr. Hensley. Thirty miles from market? Mr. CoE. Thirty miles further from market. Mr. George. Yes; but how can it be 30 miles further from market? Mr. CoE. The Indians living on the lower part of the Camp Mc- Dowell Reservation live right down next to the line [indicating on map]. Mr. George. Yes. Mr. CoE. The south boundary. Mr. George. Yes. Mr. CoE. The lands that they have been offered are right here. [Indicating on map.] It is not very far — (> or 7 miles. The main market is Phoenix, off here. [Indicating on map.] Mr. George. The main market is just the same. The market does not change. Mr. Coe. No; but the distance changes. Mr. Hensley. Only 6 or 7 miles? Mr. Coe. But the Indians living up here [indicating on map] are farther. Mr. George. For one purpose you are saying 30 miles and for an- other purpose you ai'e saying 6 miles. One case is near and the other case is fai'. For my purpose you said they were up there 30 miles away. For the other purpose you said they were only 6 miles away. That is an elastic sort of a measurement. Mr. Coe. They are 35 miles from Phoenix to this end of the reser- vation, you see [indicating on majj]. Mr. Hensley. Yes. Mr. Coe. But they are only 6 or 7 miles, the closest Indians, from this land [indicating]. Mr. Hensley. '\Aliy do you not argue from the center of the reser- vation, as you would do if speaking from the center to Phoenix? Mr. Coe. It would be 12 miles from the center of the reservation. Mr. Hexsley. Then they would be 12 miles nearer the mai'ket? Mr. CoE. From the center of the reservation; yes. Mr. Hensley. Yes. Now, let us go to another proposition. You say that, in your opinion, if the whole tribe should go down and make their selections on the Salt River, they would be placed in class A land and enjoy the first water right there. That Avas your state- ment, was it not? Mr. Coe. I said that was my opinion. Mr. Hensley. You said that was your opinion; you have not any- thing to base that ojDinion on, have you, especially? ■ Mr. Coe. Not that I have not already stated; no, sir. ■ '■ ; Mr. Hensley. You seem to get that from the decree of the.coijrt that was render'ed in connection with the water rights out there. - JMr. Coe. That was my interpretation of the decree; yes. ' "■ Mr. Hensley. But as the map shows, according to the'decree.' lands are in class C land? , , . ; .' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 569 Mr. CoE. The map shows that; yes, sir. Mr. Hexslex. Now, as being in class C, what in your judgriR'iit is the land worth down on the Salt River? Mr. CoE. At least $100 an acre. ]Mr. Hensley. You are presuming in that answer that there is sufficient water supply for the land of class A and class B and enough left for class C ? Mr. CoE. I am presuming, of course, that to be worth that the land would have to have water. Mr. Hensley. Of course; it is practically worth nothing without water ? Mr. CoE. Very little. Mr. Hexsley. You have not much idea about how much it would cost to put in that sort of an irrigation system up on the Verde, have you? Mr. CoE. No, sir ; that is out of my line entirely. Mr. Hensley. Though that is one of the oldest ditches in the whole country, is it not? Mr. CoE. One of them is; only one of them is, and that one sup- plies, according to my understanding, about 61 acres. The other ditches are recent. "What was known as the old Government ditch is the old ditch that was put in for the use of an Army garden a great many years ago. That supplies 61 acres. All the other ditches are later. Mr. Henslet. Supply the diilerence between 61 acres and 400 acres ? Mr. CoE. Supply the difference between' 61 acres and 1,600 acres which were under cultivation. Mr. Hensley. You answered awhile ago that there are some 400 acres of land being supplied with water upon the Verde? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Hensley. And you answer now that the old ditch supplies about 61 acres of the 400 ? Mr. CoE. That is correct; yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. That is what I am getting at. And, in your judg- ment it costs something like $1,200 a year to maintain the dam and the ditches upon the Verde now? Mr. CoE. How much did you say? Mr. Hensley. Something like $1,200 per year. ; Mr. CoE. If I remember rightly, this year there has been no cash expenditure made. Last year, if I remember, it was approximately $750 in cash that was paid out, and the Indians received a very low wage, and after the funds were exhausted they had to do consider- able work for which there was no joayment made at all, so that probably $1,200 would not be too much. Mr. Hexsley. But is it not your opinion that it is much more ex- pensive to maintain this primitive system, such as the Indians have now, ■than' it would be to maintain a proper system constructed there.?', i ■'■•;' ' '' '>■ ' Mr. CoE. You had better ask the chief engineer aliout that. '■■■ i'Mr.'^HENSLEY. You have an oijinioh about that, undoubteilly/ • Mr. CoE. I hardly know whether it would be or not." There is a ^ reclamation people have made soundings at different places and did not find any bottom at all. Mr. Hanna. You spoke about tliose lands dowi'i there being class C lands; is it your idea that in this Arizona ditcli tliere is water enough for the class A and tlu' class B, and the class C lands, all of them, so that they all would be of tlie one class, class A? Mr. CoE. That is the general ojjinion tliroughout the valley, that they will be ; yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. There are large reser\oirs up above, ai*e there, that hold that water back sufficient for them? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 571 Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. And your idea is, then, that it would be a benefit and a help to the Indians to move them down there on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. I think it would be of distinct advantage to them to take farming lands on the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Hanna. And thsit this forty-seven or forty-eight thousand dollars that the Government would have to pay for the water rights— that is, for its proportion of the cost of this Arizona ditch, and the reservoirs and dams, and all the rest of it — would be as cheap as, or cheaper, than it would be for the Government to go in and attempt to put a dam on this Verde River and create a reservoir and irri- gatmg system up there; is that your idea? Mr. Cob. I tliink it would be as cheap, probably cheaper. Mr. Hanna. That is all I care to ask. Mr. Gi'XiROE. Have you any cleiucr idea about what the expense of building this diini on the Verde would be than when you answered me? Mr. CoE. T liavc been informed since then it would cost about six times what I told you this morning. Mr. Geouoe. I was questioning you just a few minutes ago and you did not seem to know then. Mr. CoE. I do not know yet. Mr. (iEOROK. Why do you think it would cost more than $47,000? Mr. CoE. The gentleman asked me what my opinion was, and I told him that it was my opinion that it would cost as much, probably more. Mr. Geor(!i;. You have since received some information? Mr. CoE. Not since you were talking to me just now. Mr. GEORCiE. Since noon you have received information? Mr. CoE. I received a little information at the noon recess. Mr. George. But before that, when you were out on the reserva- tion and talking to the Indians, you did not have any such informa- tion? Mr. CoE. Not that I now have; no, sir. Mr. George. Your idea at the beginning of the day was that it would be $10,000, or something more? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. It appears to me that it is a very indefinite opinion that you have as to the cost of that dam. Mr. CoE. It is, and I said that it was. Mr. George. But you did not, when you were out there, have any such information as would warrant you in telling the Indians that it would cost too much to build such a dam ? Mr. CoE. I did not tell them that it would cost too much to build such a dam. I told them that Mr. Code said it was not a feasible proposition, on account of the ex])ense. Mr. George. And that was your own judgment? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. George. You were willing to accejit that without any in- quiries? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. George. Or having any definite ligui-es? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. 572 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPAETMENT, Mr. George. You were willing to undertake to tell the Indians that they should go down to Salt Eiver and incur a large expense for the Government, without knowing what expense the Govern- ment would be under if the Indians stayed on the Verde River? Mr. CoK. I am willing to take the recommendations of the en- gineer who investigates those things. Mr. (lEORGE. Although you do not know what those recommenda- tions are '< ]Mr. CoE. I do not know what his recommendations were as to the expense. Mr. George. You were willing to accept that without any ex- amination on your part ? Mr. CoE. I am, as long as it coincides with Avhat my judgment would be. j\Ir. George. But you have no judgment that is founded upon any material information ? Mr. CoE. Except my looking over the ground. INIr. George. But you can not form any figures by looking over the ground ? jNIr. CoE. Certainly not. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, how far north of the McDowell Reser- vation are you familiar with the Verde River ? ]\Ir. Coe. Not very far, Mr. Chairman ; probably two or three miles above the reservation line. The CiiAiRjiAN. Have you any information as to whether there is a point north of and not far from the McDowell Reservation where the natural conditions would enable the building of a permanent dam at a reasonable expense ? jNIr. CoE. No personal information; no, sir. The Chairman. Have you any information, by hearsay or any other Avay ? Mr. CoE. I have heard it said that 2.") miles north of there the Verde River came through a box canyon. Whether it would be feasible to put in a dam there or not I do not know. ■ The CiiAiRjiAN. The rej^ort that you spoke of that some engineer liiade as to the impracticabilit}' of damming the Verde — I mean in a physiral way [laughter] — at the McDowell Reservation, whose report Wa.s that? :• Sir. Cm:. That of the chief engineer, jMr. Code. The Chairman. Wliere can it be found? ]\rr. Coic. I do not know. ■ "■The Chatrsiax. Is it a public document? •Mr. Coe. I do not know. Tlic Chairman. Have you: seen it? ' ■^ ]Mr. Che. I huxe not seen the report itself; no, sir. I have a tetter ii'oni Mr. Code on the'subject. '■ '^ : :" ■■ Mr. Hanna. Have you the letter with' you ■?' ' •:''>ii Mr. C2.50 per day with a team, and $1.25 a day without a team. The Chairman. Is that the usual price allowed for the work thev do? Mr. Coe. That is the price that has been allowed for work in pay- ment of issues; but when they were paid in money they were paid at a lower rate. The Chairman. At what rate? Mr. Coe. When I was there they were paid $1.2.") a day with a team, and 75 c«nts a day without. I understand pre\aous to. that time it was lower yet, a dollar a day with a team and 50 cents for a man. The Chairman. They do some work in cleaning out ditches for which you allow pay, do they not? Jlr. Coe. Xo, sir; I do not think since I have been there there has been any pay for cleaning out a ditch. ' The Chairjian. A\liat other kinds of work do they do besides the work on the school farm, for which they receive pay or credit ? Mr. Coe. Thej^ do a little freighting occasionallv. The Chairman. Hauling freigJit-fi^om 'the station ? ■_ Mr. Coe. From Phoenix; yes, sir; to McDowell. . _ , •• The Chairman. Anvtliing else? - Mr. Coe. I think that is all. The Chairman. You sell them plows, and harnes, and wagons, and farming implements generallj', do you not, and then allow them to pay for those things by labor ? i: iVIr. Coe. I have issued all those things that you mentioned, except Wagons. No wagons have been issued since I have been there;, and, the Indians are allowed to pay for them in labor. . The Chairman. The only kind of labor you have for them, th^n,' you say is work on the school farm, and the 'hauling of freight from the station to the agency ?/' ' , ' ,• . \ t Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. , , . ' , , . 574 EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, The Chairman. You said to Mr. Sloan that when you advised them to move you also advised them that they would retain their rights at McDowell. Was that a verbal statement, or was there any writing to that effect ? Mr. CoE. That was always a verbal statement. The Chairman. Had you any written authority on which to base such a statement, and if you had, from whom did you have it? Mr. CoE. The Indians themselves had a letter from Mr. Valentine saying that they would be allowed to retain their lands at McDowell for pasturage, and so forth. We took that as a basis for assuring them that they would not be required to give up any of their rights up at McDowell. The Chairman. But the statement was not true, was it; they would lose their water rights — you have so stated here to-day — ^if they accepted the allotments on Salt River? Mr. CoE. That would be in the event that all of them took up their farm lands, I think, on Salt River, and all of them went there for farming. The Chairman. The inducement was addressed to all of them, and you wanted all of them to go, and if they all went they would lose their water privileges at McDowell, would they not; so the statement or representation was not quite accurate ? Mr. CoE. The probabilities are that if all of them went to farm at that point they would not want any water at McDowell. The Chairman. That is evading the point just a little bit. The point I made, and the question, was, that the statement or represen- tation you made to them was not quite accurate, in that you wanted them all to go, j^ou were trying to get them all to go, and you were telling them they would lose no rights at McDowell; whereas, if they all went, they would probably lose a valuable right at Mc- Dowell ; is not that about right ? Mr. CoE. It never occurred to me in just that way; no, sir. The Chairman. It does now, does it not ? Mr. CoE. No ; I do not know that it does. The Chairman. Explain why my statement is not correct. Mr. CoE. Under present conditions I do not regard the water right at McDowell as a very valuable one. The Chairman. Such as it was, they would lose it if they all went? Mr. CoE. I suppose they would ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Every representation made to you by the bureau was on the basis that they could have McDowell only as grazing ground ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The bureau Imew, and so did you, that these In- dians had no capital. Is not that true ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Was it the intention that they would go to Salt River — some 30 miles distant you stated, but I will put it as you meant it — an average distance of some 15 or 16 miles away, and still live in their homes in McDowell while farming the land from 6 to 30 miles away? Mr. CoE. Those Indians are more or less nomadic, and it was sup- posed that during the farming season they would perhaps live down below on the lands, if they took them, and farm them, and during the other season might want to live up in the hills. EXPENDITUBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 575 The Chairman. Did the bureau think they could civilize them quicker by encouraging their nomadic tendencies ? Mr. CoE. I do not know. The Chairman. Was it the intention that they would retain their permanent homes and buildings in which they lived at McDowell and continue indefinitely to farm the lands on Salt Eiver? Mr. CoE. I can not well answer for the Indian Bureau. I have no definite instructions. The Chairman. Your own knowledge, or what you got from the bureau, if you have any knowledge on that line, we would like to have it. Mr. CoE. I do not suppose that it was the idea of the Bureau that they were to permanently live at that spot. The Chairman. Permanently occupy their present homes. Did not the bureau know, and did you not, realize, Mr. Coe, that if they accepted the allotments at Salt Eiver they must necessarily move down there and live there in the end ? Mr. CoE. I know it would be to their advantage ; at least I think it would be to their advantage to do it. The Chairman. That is entirely beside the question I asked you. Please read the question I asked him, Mr. Reporter. (The reporter repeated the question, as follows:) Did not the bureau know, and. did you not realize, Mr. Coe, that if they ac^ cepted the allotments at Salt River they must necessarily move down there, and live there, in the end? Mr. Cob. That would be the natural supposition, that they would live there. The Chairman. That would mean that in the absence of capital on their part the Government would have to make improvements for them down there, would it not? Mr. CoE. I think so. The Chairman. There would be 213 allotments. What is the least amount of money that would improve one of the allotments? Mr. Coe. I could not give you the figures. The Chairman. It would not be less than $150, would it, to build any sort of a house and any kind of a shed for a stable, to sink any sort of a well, to put up fences, and to make the necessary improve- ments ? Mr. CoE. It would cost a good deal less than that to build the kind of houses the McDowell Indians now live in. The Chairman. All these things that I speak of would take, I should think, in the neighborhood of $150, would they not? Mr. CoE. I presume they would. Mr. Hanna. It would not be necessary to build a house for every one of the 213. That includes men, women, and children. It would only be necessary for the heads of the families, would it not? The Chairman. At present, yes; but later on each one who had an allotment would some time or other live on it. Mr. Hanna. The old people would die off. The Chairman. I meant to get to that in a moment; on that very theory you suggest. If that were necesary, and each allotment cost $150, that would be 150 times 213, which would figure up $31,950, in addition to $47,925 mentioned by Mr. George. Now, on the theory 576 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEHIOE DEPAETMENT. suggested by Mr. Hanna, which I recognized as entirely proper, you say there were 213 Indians, which would represent how many heads of families? Mr. Cob. I am unable to state the exact number of families ; I think something like 40 or 45. The CiiAiRjiAN. I guessed it at 50. That would not be wide of the mark much, would it '. i\li-. Cue. Not very far; no, sir. The Chairman. Some of them have no children. Fifty times 150 would be $7,500 for impi-ovements, which would have to be ad- vanced to them at once if they moved; which, in addition to the ])ractically $48,000 which jNlr. George mentioned, would make $55,4^5. Mr. Cue. I do not believe, Mr. Chairman, that it would be neces- sary to expend that much money immediately. Those Indians would cut their own posts, and if they desired to move they have the wire where they now live to fence a great part of the allotment, and they could build their own houses, as they now have them, which they do every year or two anyway. The Chairjian. Did you not say that they did not improve the conditions the white settlers left? Mr. Cue. I did. They would not live in those houses, probably, if you gave them to them, if you gave them a modern house. The Chairman. Some of them testified that they not only live.d in them, but one of them said that he built two additional rooms to his. What do you say to the truth of that? Mr. CoE. I would i-ather doubt it until I saw him doing the work. I have no personal knowledge on the subject. The Chairman. Another testified to sinking a well for himself, and testified to another case where he knew the Indian occupant had sunk a well. Mr. CoE. I loiow that there are practically no Indians occupying those fairly good houses that are on the reservation now. They simply build the old-style Indian house, set a few poles in the ground, arch them over, and cover them with brush, and spread a canvass over the top of them. The Chairman. What they call a wickieup ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Some of them live in those as their winter homes? Mr. CoE. All of them that I know, except two families. The Chairman. Looking at it from the Government's point of view, what would the Government get for becoming responsible for a debt of at least $50,000 arising out of the Indians moving ? Mr. CoE. It would simply be the knowledge that they had done the best thing for a needy band of Indians. The Chairman. But they are quite happy now and self-support- ing, you said ; could not the Government employ its time and money in helping other Indians who are neither happy nor self-supporting, and letting those alone where they are so well satisfied? Mr. CoE. The Government is trying to provide for the future of those Indians, which thej^ think is very poorly provided for under present conditions, I believe, and therefore they have offered to give them these additional lands. KXIMCNDI'I'IIUKS IN ■I'll)'; IN'I'KUIOIl DUI'MITMBNT. 577 Tlio ('uAiii;\iAN. I know (licy liiisc nmdc tlic oHVr; lliiil is (|ni(c ii|)|)nrrn(. Tlu' ( i liidiiiiis and lire heinji' oiieniled hy w iii(e men wlio own (liein 't Mr. ('oh:. 1 know of no eoiil d(>posils in (liiif iiniuediiile section. 'riu> CiiAiiiM.VN. Nol' in liiid illlllledill^t^ iieifi'hhoriiood, liiil iiof fur from (iier(<'< Mr. CoK. I am not iieiiuninled witli conditions elsewlierc. Tiie (.'iiAiKAi AN. Mr. N'liientiiie (old lis alioiit. (liosi> (liinii's, m- per- liaps I would iio( liino known id' i( ; mid liotold us, if I recall rii^litly, that in iminy instances in (he receiif past llie liidiiiiis had Iteeii .seaiidiiliMisly cheated uiul robbed. Mr. (.'ok. I suppose (hat it (nie, if he told yon so. Mr. (iKoiidi;. And (hut it was (ho [ireseiil policy (d' the (io\erniiieii( (o learn (he iH'olofiicnl milure of (he land, if possible, so as to ascer- tiiin wliolher iiiiy hind in (he possession of (he Indinns had mincrnl deposits. Mr. (\iK. 1 belie\t> that is true; 1 belie\e (hey are ealliii>>' on (he (leoloyii'al Siirxey. The CiiAiuMAN. Ill (his Sail IJixcr Ivoservadon iiiaKer, whei'e (ho irriiiiidon project would <'ost about $(.'> an acre, was it u part oi" the (io\ernmen('s phiii to malu' (hii( money reimbursable? Mr. (\iK. I ilo iio( know. The CiiAiKM AX. Have you any informalioii on that subjects Mr. Coi;. I lia\e not. The CiiAiKMAN. In (he iiidueomen(s you offered to the Indians, were you authorized to say to tlioni that the (Joveniment would jiay for this irrigated land on the Salt Ixiver out of its own treasury, mid without askine anythinji- of (he Indimusif Mr. (,\>F.. Tliat is my understanding;-; yi-s, sir. The ("'iiAiiiM AN. Then your iinderstmidiiii;' was that the $4.') an acre was not roimbursnble? Mr. (\iK. That w.as my imderstaudiin;-. 'i'lie ("iiAUiMAN. Suppose it were lo be roimbursahle. would you still ad\ ise the Indians lo eo down (horo^ Mr. t\>i:. 1 would; yes, sir. 'I'lie C'liAiUMAN. The irrijiatiou projects an> so arraiifjed that the expense of irripitioii is virlually a mortsiaiiv on (he huui ; is not that rioiit y Take (ho white settlers in each irriiiiition district, and if they fail to pay the assessuieiUs when they become due, could not the water users' .associations foreclose on thorn ? Mr. (\>K. 1 do not know, Mr. Chairman, whether they could or not. The CiiAiKMAN. How eould they compel them to pay. or what eoiild they dt> if they did not pay? Mr. CoK. 1 -suppose the Keclamatiou Service miiiht shut otY the A\aler sor\ ice if llie\ did not pay. The CiiAiKMAN. i'hat would "not pay thorn; that would be only pimishiiijv the Keolamntion Service in two ways: h'ii-sl. by causing 678 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMKNT. thoin to lose what was owing to them; and, sec-oiid, proventinjr them getting use for their water tliereafter, whereas it is the |)oliey of the Government when land is irrigated to nnike the huid usefid. Would it not be more reasonable if the fellow on it woidd not \m\ to have the land used by some one else'^ Mr. CoE. I do not know what eon Id be ilone in that respect. The Chairman. Then yon have not gone into the matter very far? Mr. Cov.. No, sir; 1 have not. The Chairman. Suppose the Indian went on the land with tin arrangement by whii'h lie had to pay for the irrigation expense, ami the money was ivimbui'sable, and that he ran tiie risk of having the land taken from him under foreclosure proceeding's if 1h> fnilcd to pay, would you still advise him to go on \t( Mr. CoE. I did not get the last part of tiie tpiestion. The Chairm.vn. Suppose the money was to be reimbui-sable, to be paid in 10 equal aniuuvl payments or installments, and if the install- ments were not paid when due the water users' association nugiit he- gin a proceeding siniihir to a foreclosure of a mortgage, sell his land, and the possession of it ])ass from him to the purchaser in due course, and he ran the risk of thai, woidd you still advise hini to go down there and accept an allotment'^ Mr. CoK. My understanding would l)e, even if this were numhurs- able, the Indian himself would probably not be required to nay it in 10 equal annual paynuMits; but that he woidd \eiy likelv be given the opportunity to pay it after he had gotten upon his iVet ami in such amounts as it was ])ossible for him to do so. The Ciiair:\ian. And if he failed to jiay it, that the (loverninent would pay it for him ? Mr. CoE. I presume it would. The Chairman. You are aware, are you not, (hat the (iovernnient, at a cost of $45,000, bought out the inteivsls of the white settlers in the McDowell Valley for his beiu-fit? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Theie was $45,000 the (Jovei'nment gave him, nnd here would be some $50,000 more (he (Jovcnunent would give him. Would not that be treating him with gicat liberality, esptvialiy when he does not want the last-mentioned gift '^ Mr. Cob. The (lovcrnineni simply made a bad bai-gain in the first instance, in my estinuition. The Chairman. I do not thinlc you have convinced all of us that this other bargain would be any better. We would be glad to have you do it right now, if you can. We nti^ looking at. it from the Gov- ernment's point of view, as well as from (he Indians'; and at first blush it strikes some of us this way: 'I'ii(> Indian is satisfied, is happy; he wants to be a citizen; he wants to be independent, nnd says so; he does not want to leave McDowell; he does not even ask the Government to build him a dam on the Verde River. All he asks is that you let him alone where he is. And yet the bureau in- sists that he shall go into another entei'prise which will cost tlie Government at least $50,000 to start with, for the purpose, ai fiak blush, of making him less happy than he is, less contented. IiC you can show us that that view is unsound we would be glad to hettf yoUi Mr. CoE. As I have stated two or three times previously,, jMri Chairman, my knowledge of conditions down there is rathcS nBliWdl EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. 579 1 have been in that section of the country only a short time. Mr. Code has been in touch with conditions there for a long time, and his testimony, when you bring him to the stand, will give you light on all those points. The Chairman. Some of the others who have been on the stand suggested that you would spread the light enormously. Mr. George. Mr. Valentine ventured to tell'the committee that you would shed much light on these dark subjects. The Chairman. Of the 42 who have selected allotments at Salt River, you say IH are adults? Mr. CoE. Approximately so; yes, sir. The Chaiuman. Of those 18, how many belong in the same family — father, mother, brothers iind sisters, and others in the same family? Mr. CoE. I think it is either six or seven families ; I am not sure. The Chairman. And the minor children— 24 of them— would be members, of course, of the same families'? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Sf) that the amount of independent selection, so to speak, the number of family units who have made selections, would be limited to six or eight? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, have you ever heard the title to the land you want them to move on questioned— the Government's title to it? Mr. CoE. I never have. The Chairman. Have you ever heard that there might be, and probably would be, litigation over the Salt River Indian Reservation ? Mr. CoE. I have never heard it ; no, sir. The Ci-iAiKMAN. Do you know to whom it formerly belonged, who were in possession of it before it was laid out as a reservation? Mr. CoE. I do not. The Chairman. Did you ever hear that the Pimas, or any other Indians there, claimed that it was their land, and that the Govern- ment had no right to allot it? Mr. CoE. I never heard any of the Pimas say that; no, sir. The Chairafan. Or any other Indians? Mr. CoE. I do not recall. Possibly some the McDowell Indians might have advanced that idea ; but I do not remember. The Chairman. I do not think it is possible, of course'it is highly improbable, that they did, because one of their objections to going there is that the title to it is not valid, and of coui'se if they went on it themselves they could not question the \alidity of the title of the land they lived on. Mr. CoE. I think one of the Executive orders establishing the Salt River Reservation made it for the use and occupancy of the Pima Indians, and such other Indians as the Secretary of the Interior might wish to place thereon. The Chairman. Do you think that even by Executive order a valid title could be changed ? I would a good deal rather have a patent than the President's Executive order as the basis for my title. Mr. Coio. Of course, if there was a patent on the land, the Execu- tive order would probably exempt that from the operation of the order; but I do not recall that.it made any exemption. 98240— No. 14—11 r, 580 EXPENDITURES IJN THE INTEJilOBnraBPSBTJVlJliiNX. The Chairman. Suppose there was a fairly well-grounded claim on the part of some other Indians to the Salt Eiver land, and that th& question of title would probably be litigated later on, would that cause you to change your mind as to the advisability of moving the McDowells? Mr. CoE. Of course, I would not advise anybody to take some- thing that there was not any title to ; but I had never heard that there- was any question as to this title before. The Chaikman. In what you did, then, you were not acting on your own initiative or your own judgment; you were simply carry- out orders from above you ? Mr. CoE. To a large extent ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Entirely. Mr. CoE. I had the general welfare of those Indians in mind, and I myself thought that a change of that kind, if they could be induced to take this farming land, was a good thing. The Chairman. Do you not think you reflect on your judgment when you tell us that — after admitting how little you knew about it,, without having gone into the question of title, or the question of im- provements, and a great many other questions which you admit you do not know anything about — you do not even know whether ther& is mineral in the present McDowell Reservation. Do you not think you made that statement a little prematurely and without sufficient consideration ? Mr. CoE. Of course, as I just said, it never occurred to me that there was any question as to the title. I did not suppose that there was. I had never heard of any such thing. The Chairman. You did not think about the other items of ex- pense, and you did not think about differences between them and the Pimas ? Mr. CoE. Yes ; I did. Mr. Chairman. Mr. George. Did what ? I do not understand. Mr. CoE. I took into consideration the expense that those Indians might be under to improve those lands. Some of the Indians asked me as to that, and asked me whether the Government was going to do it or not, and I told them that I had no definite instructions on that matter, but I felt quite sure that the Government would put in the- new ditch if they decided to farm down there, and would probably furnish them the wire to put up their fences; but they would cut their own posts and do the work themselves. The Chairman. What would the effect be on their rights in the McDowell Agency if they accepted allotments elsewhere ? Have you ever run that down as a legal proposition, whether the acceptance of an allotment at one place would not destroy their claim to land at another place ? Mr. CoE. I have had no opportunity to inform myself. I was as- suming, of course, that the office, when they were offering to do that, had taken care of that phase of the question, of course. The Chairman. That comes back to the question I asked you a while ago, whether, speaking broadly, your conduct in the matter was not entirely due to suggestions or orders or directions from above- you? Mr. CoE. Spaking broadly, it was, of course. ji^j^.^-->Tjj.j.i.iv.JlA liV i.111!, iiV±J!,lliUB DEPAETMENT. 581 The Chaibmax. You practically admitted before recess that the character of the soil at McDowell was at least as good and probably a little better than it is at Salt Kiver ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The CHAiEirAX. They are accessible there to timber land ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chaibmax. They would not be at Salt Eiver. They would have none except at McDowell, would they ? Mr. CoE. They woidd have the same timber land as they now have at McDowell. The Chaibmax. If my suggestion should prove to be true, if the acceptance of an allotment at Salt Eiver would cut them out of rights at McDowell, then thev would have no timber rights, would they? ilr. CoE. As I understand, at different places that have been al- lotted the Indians do receive sometimes two and sometimes more allotments: they have received one farming allotment and one graz- ing allotment, and perhaps a timber allotment, and I see no reason why the Camp McDowell people could not take the benefit of sonie sort of a plan like that. The Chaibmax. Coming back to the other question, it is substan- tially so that the soil at McDowell is somewhat superior to the soil at Salt Eiver, with equal irrigation? ilr. CoE. I doubt if there is very much difference between the .-oil in the upper Salt Eiver TaUey and the soil in the Terde Valley. The Chaibmax. The water in the Verde Eiver is imdoubtedly bet- ter than the water in the Salt Eiver. is it not i ilr. CoE. I have always understood that it was. The Chaibmax. You have personal knowledge on that point, have vou not ? :Mr. CoE. Yes. The Chairmax. The Verde Eiver water is not brackish or .saltv in any degree, is it ? llr. CoE. Xo. sir. The CHAHaiAX. And its discharge into the Salt Eiver raises the tone, the quality, of the Salt Eiver. after the junction of the two? Mr. CoE. It would : yes. sir. The Chahlmax. For living purposes, for stock use. and for human use. and aU that, the Verde Eiver water is vastly better than the other? Mr. CoE. It is some better. Mr. Chairman : but I am not prepared to state that it is vastly better. The Salt Eiver water is used for all the purposes vou hare mentioned, and I do not know of any bad effects from it. The effects I have seen have all been very decidedly beneficial. 'Six. Geobge. Was that the Salt after the juncture with the \ erde, or before ? 5Ir. CoE. After, of course : it is not used for anything before. The CHAIB3IAX. What knowledge have you of its use. either by animals or men. above the confluence of the two rivers ? Mr. CoE. I know that some of the ranch people living on the head waters of the Salt Eiver depend upon that for domestic purposes: and also that the cattle up in that country drink it. I have drunk it myself. 582 BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Necessitj' sometimes requires us to do thing:s we do not like to do ; but if you were equally near the two rivers, you would go to the Verde for water, would you not ? Mr. CoE. My. Chairman, I really could not distinguish very much difference between the two waters from tasting them. The Chairman. The only reason you give, then, for recommend- ing the moving of the McDowells is the question of a dam in the Verde River? Mr. CoE. That was the only reason. The Chairman. I understand you to concede, to put it as weakly as you want me to, that the soil is no better in the Salt Eiver Valley, that the water is no better in the Salt River Valley than the Verde, the climate is no better, the timber is not so accessible, that there is no condition in the Salt River country that is superior to the conditions in the Verde River country, and that the only reason for recom- mending the movement is the impracticability^ of making a dam in the Verde River; and that it is 15 or 16 miles, on the average, nearer to market? Mr. CoE. That would be the reason ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Those are the only ones? Mr. CoE. The only ones that I know ; yes, sir. The Chairman. Mesa is the general market place, and Scottsdale, as the testimony of the Indians who were here informed us. What difference would there be in going to Scottsdale or Mesa ? Mr. CoE. It would be just the same difference in going to either one of those towns as in getting to Phoenix; you have to pass right through those lands going to either of the towns you mention. Mr. Hanna. Those are both railroad towns, are they? Mr. CoE. No, sir. [Explaining on map.] Here is the McDowell Road that goes on up and crosses the line about here at the southw£St corner of the reservation. There is only one bridge across the Ari- zona Canal at this point, so that road, no matter whether you are going to Mesa or Scottsdale or Phoenix, passes right through that land. Mr. Hanna. Where is the nearest railroad to that land? Mr. CoE. Mesa. Mr. Hanna. Is there a crossing on the Salt River ; is there a bridge across it? Mr. CoE. There is not. That is the one thing I just wanted to mention. The crossing of the Salt River here is pretty bad, so that very little of the products are hauled to Mesa. They are principally hauled to Scottsdale. Mr. Hanna. Is there a railroad at Scottsdale ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Hanna. Can you haul a loaded wagon across that ford in the Salt River? Mr. CoE. You could if you put on enough teams. It is a pretty hard pull. Mr. Hanna. So that all the products the Indians raised up there now would have to be hauled — those that were sold — to Phoenix? Mr. CoE. They possibly sell a few things at Mesa ; but I think that nine-tenths of the products go to Scottsdale and to Phoenix. Mr. Hanna. Is it the intention to build a wagon bridge across the Salt River? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 583 Mr. CoE. At Mesa ? Mr. Hanna. Yes. Mr. CoE. No, sir ; I never heard of it. There is probably a bridge going to be built at Tempe within the next year or so. The CiiAiKJiAx. There is another point in connection with that that might to some extent counteract it that I wanted to get Mr. Coe's judgment on. Mr. Coe, do you know of mineral camps up the Verde ? Do you know where Ray is '* Mr. CoE. Air. Chairman, I know the general location of that; but I do not think it is up the A'erde. The Chairman. It is north from the McDowell Reservation, is it not? Mr. Coe. I do not think it is. The Chairman. In what direction is it? Mr. Charles Dickens testified to going north to a copper mine, where he was road boss down in the mine at $3.20 a day, I think he said. Do you know any- thing about where that was ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Where was it? Mr. Coe. It was at Raj^, Ariz., I should judge about 100 miles southeast of McDowell. The Chairman. There was some point northward where he said a great many of the Indians moved by wagons, and took their fami- lies, and worked during the working season at the mines; or possi- bly at railroad building. Do you know where that was ^ Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge of any Indians working at mines north of Camp SIcDowell. The only mines I know are at Kehin and Ray, and they are southeast. If tliere was such a thing, Mr. Chairman, it was before I took charge, because I have had no In- dians going there since I have been at McDowell. The Chairman. The point in my mind was that if there were mines up the Verde Valley somewhere they would be at least nearer the work where they are now than where they are going; but the distance is not a very important matter. Mr. CoE. Mr. Chairman, they would be closer from this other point, because there is no wagon road up the Verde Valley. As I am told by the Indians themselves,' and by others, the Verde River comes "through some very rough, mountainous country, and they would have to go to Phoenix. The Chairman. Yes; there were some fords, where probably a dam could be placed quite cheaply. Mr. CoE. As I was going to say, you have to go to Phoenix to go to Camp Verde, where other Mohave Apaches, under other superin- tendents, are located, and these people sometimes visit them. But they do not go up the river, they go to the city of Phoenix first, and take the wagon road from there. The Chairman. One more point, and then I shall have finished. There are some Indians in McDowell who are not Mohave Apaches, are there not? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Yumas: or what are they? Mr. CoE. Thev are Yuma Apaches. You understand. ^Mr (liair- man. that the only difference between a Mohave Apache Indian and a Yuma Apache Indian is the different localities in which they were 584 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEHIOE DEPARTMENT. living. The language is tlie same, the manners and customs ai'e the same, and everything else. The only difference is that those who are called Yimia Apaches formerly lived down near the town or in the county of Yuma, and the Mohave Apaches lived farther to the north- east. The Chairman. Can you tell us whether the six or seven or eight heads of families who consented to take allotments on Salt River were Yuma Apaches or Mohave Apaches? Mr. Coe. The wife of one of the people who consented was the Yuma Apache. The Chairman. Who was that? Mr. CoE. That was Gilbert David's wife. Gilbert himself is a Mohave. The Chairman. Gilbert David or David Gilbert? Mr. CoE. His correct name is Gilbert David. I believe, Mr. Chair- man, that all the rest of them are Mohave Apaches. Mr. Hensley. Did you say his wife, or is Gilbert? Mr. Coe. His wife is a Yuma Apache. Mr. Hensley. Did they both take allotments? Mr. CoE. They both took allotments; yes, sir. The Chairman. Could you give us the names of those who took allotments there, or agreed to take them? Mr. CoE. Steve Norton, Sam Kill, Leonard Hay, Gilbert David, Big Mike, Sam Axe, Mike Nelson. The Chairman. That is the policeman? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were there any others of them, besides Mike Nelson, who held Government jobs? Mr. CoE. Leonard Hay. The Chairman. What was his job? Mr. Coe. Interpreter. The Chairman. Were there any others? Mr. Coe. Sam Kill. The Chairman. What was his job? Mr. Coe. Judge of an Indian court. The Chairman. And any others? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. That was four of them who held Government jobs? Mr. Coe. Three of them. The Chairman. Were the others in any way connected with any of the officers, Mr. Gunderson or yourself? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. How about those judges that you told about a while ago ; were they among them ? Mr. CoE. One of them. The Chairman. Which one of them? Mr. CoE. Sam Kill. The Chairman. Were the others related to these in any way so that those who did not hold the jobs might be more or less under the influence of those who did, and be persuaded by them? Mr. Coe. I do not think so, outside of these immediate families; EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPABTMENT. 585 The Chairman. Who were the two who were not in any way con- nected with the Indian officers there ? Mr. CoE. Gilbert David and Big Mike. The Chairman. Gilbert David is the one who is married to the Yuma woman ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And who was the other ? Mr. CoE. Big Mike. The Chairman. Is that his only name ? Mr. CoE. He has an Indian name, but I do not recall it. The Chairman. I know ; but Big Mike is not Mike Nelson ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Also Sam Axe and Steve Norton ; that is all I recall just now. The Chairman. We had some testimony, Mr. Coe, that certain In- dians there made a classification, or rather a roll, of the Indians. Were those you have last named among the ones who did so ? Mr. CoE. Will you repeat that question again ? The Chairman. We had some testimony on a former occasion that certain Indians there helped to make a roll of the tribe. Do you know who they were? Mr. CoE. Under whose direction was this roll made? The Chairman. I am sorry I can not tell you. 'Mr. Cob. The only knowledge of any roll I have is the regular census roll, which was taken by some officer of the service the latter part of June each year. The Chairman. Who is he? Mr. CoE. Last year it was myself; this year it was Mr. Cold well, the teacher in charge. The CiiAiRjtAN. Taken by white folks there? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were the men whom you have named assigned 10-acre tracts at McDowell — those men who accepted allotments cr agreed to accept allotments on Salt Eiver? Mr. Coe. Do you mean at some previous time ? The Chairman. Now, or at any time, have had 10-acre lots on McDowell? Mr. CoE. They have parcels of land that they are cultivating at McDowell. I do not know whether they are 10 acres or more than 10 acres or less. Each one has a little farm up there. They vary tomewhat in size. The Chairman. Who was the one you recommended to the bureau should have special treatment because of his activity, first in going down there, and second in influencing others to go ? Mr. CoE. Was not that Mr. Gunderson who made that recom- mendation ? The Chairman. I may be mistaken ; I had in mind that it was yourself. Mr. CoE. I do not recall, Mr. Chairman, that I ever made that. The Chairman. If Gunderson did, to your knowledge, who was the one to whom he referred ? Mr. CoE. Gilbert David, I think, and wife. The Chairman. He was quite active in trying to induce others to go to Salt Kiver ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. 586 EXPENDIT1JEES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. The Chaibman. And a letter complimenting him and telling him how much the bureau appreciated his conduct was sent to him? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chaieman. By whom was it signed; do you recall? Mr. CoE. No ; I do not recall. My impression is that it was signed by Mr. Hauk, but I may be mistaken. The Chairman. I think you are right, but I am not sure. Whom of those you have named did Gilbert David succeed in getting to consent to go ? Mr. CoE. He probably influenced Big Mike and his family and Sam Axe and his family, and possibly had some influence with some of the others; I do not know just how many. (Thereupon, at 5.25 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Friday, July 7, 1911, at 10.30 o'clock a. m.) ERRATA. The followiu-i- oori-octions arc to bo made in testinuiiiv of Hon. Frniu'is E. Leupp, ex-Comnussioner of Indian Affairs: I'tijio l-_\ lino .vt. omit ■' amount '" and insert " date." I'agv V,\, lino l!>, before "under." insert "except": and line io. omit " Menoniinee " and insert " Montana." Page 17. line ;i;>. before "council." omit "the" and insert "a": line ;U. omit all alter "ai " and insert •' cxlds " with a period; line ."v"!. omit tirst tUive M-ords, Ijesiiu sentence with " There." and insert " re- spective" before "numeral"; line ;U>. before "one." insert "only"; lines ;i7-;k^, omit evervthinj>- afier "looked." and insert " upoii as doubtful because of tliis ipiarrel." Pag-e i!_l. line 4. before "sealed." insert "under"; line .'H'.. omit "noticed" and insert "introduced"; line .'iS, omit "scheme" and in- sert "signature." Page '2-2. line 4. lx>fore " ofticei-s." insert "health." Page -j;!. line !\ oniit "being." Page -24, bottom line, omit "came to me and made." and insert "asked me about making." _Pag-e ■-'". line 4ti. omit "exhausts his" and insert "ignores"; line 47. omit "disregards" and insert "abuses." Pagy -28. line 28. omit "Secretary of the Interior" and insert "President," At the end of line 30. omit "one of" and insert "to make the chaugv." I^ine .'U. omit all before "the" and begin new sentence by inserting: " Then a rule was made by." Page 2!>. line 2."\ after "special." ii\sert "in the law"; line ;v"i. omit ">^80.it00 a year" arid insi-rt "great amounts." Liue> ;'>!>. 40. and 41 have lost something — possibly an indication of some point on the map — whereby Mr. tieorge identified the agent he was asking about. Page 2!>. next to Iwttom line, omit " the " and insert " a " before " former." Pag-e 30. line 14. omit "men" and insert "bondsmen"; line 2ti. between " one " and " ever." insert " had." and after " defaulted " insert " in tiovermtiont business." Page ;U. line 17. after "Indian" insert "OtWtv": line 30. omit "Oklahoma and. ' Page oo. line 37. omit "fund" and insert "land": line 40. omit " vrill " and insert " might." Page 41. line 23. after " .^O." insert "persons in responsible posi- tions." Page 4r>. line 13. after "forget" insert "that you may not be": line IC. omit " the " and insert " his." Pagr? .M. line 19. end sentence with " neighlxn-hix>d." and Ivgin new one with next word: omit the period and the word "Also" after " there," 11 EXPENDITl'KKS IN THE IN TKHUn! IIKTARTMENT. Page SO, line V2 : As I understood the chninnnn's question, he used the word "where" instead of the word "whether," as <>;iven hero. and I answered accordinglj'. If I was wnuii;', T sliouUi liUe to amend niv answer by inserting the word " where " at its i'h>so. On page 309, lines 48 and 49, omit "another point" and insert " Sacaton." Same page, bottom line, change "w© to read "he." Page 310. line 12 : 1 did not say, " President Roosevelt asked nie to write it." I said: "It was on the popular aspects of tlie Koosevelt administration — one of a series." Same paire, line •2'^, I said, "iiope- ful." not "doubtful"; in line i2T. omit "lie"* and insert "the dwtor." WW No. 15 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OV 'I'llK HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 10:5 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERlOll DKPAliTMENT JULY 7, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPFIOK 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House OfTice Building. Telephone .591. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairmav. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklatiom'i. FRANK W. MONDELL. Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. H ANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCakron, Clerk. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. The Committee on Expenditures IN the Interior Department, House of Representatives, Friday, July 7, 1911. The committee this day met, Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives George, Hensley, and Hanna. There were also present Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Mr. Thomas Sloan, attorney at law, and E. B. Meritt, law clerk, Indian Bureau. TESTIMONY OF MR. CHARIES E. COE— Continued. The Chairman. Mr. Sloan, you may proceed. ' Mr. Sloan. Mr. Coe, you stated yesterday that the land on the Salt River Reservation supposed to be allotted to the Camp McDowell Indians was worth $100 an acre. To reach that value did you have in mind that that would include the water right ? Mr. CoE. I based that statement on the fact that class C lands throughout the Salt River Valley are being held at a higher figure even than that. Mr. Sloan. Do you mean to say that lands of class C, without ref- erence to the water rights, are held at $100 an acre? Mr. CoE. I laiow several tracts that are being held at $150 an acre. Mr. George. Irrespective of water ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. They expect, of course, to have water on them ? Mr. Coe. It is the expectation, of course, that all class C lands will have water. Mr. Sloan. Do you know from what source that water will be obtained ? Mr. Coe. From the Arizona Canal. Mr. Sloan. And how is that supplied ? Mr. Coe. From the natural flow of the Verde and Salt Rivers and the water from, the Roosevelt Dam. Mr. Sloan. Would class C lands be entitled to anything from the natural flow of the Salt or the Verde River ? Mr. Coe. Only in flood times. , Mr. Sloan. That would be designated as flood water, would it not ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether the flood waters of the Salt and Verde Rivers have been appropriated or not ? Mr. Coe. I do not; no, sir. 587 588 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. Do you know what is necessary in order to acquire rights to the storage waters of the Roosevelt Dam or the Tonto Basia or whatever it is called ? Mr. C'OE. I can not give you the exact procedure; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. I notice in your letter of July 1 1 , 1910, that you recom- mend it as necessary to list the lands of the Camp McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reservation with the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association and that the Pimas have already so listed their lands. Why is that necessary ? Mr. CoE. As I stated yesterday, I believe the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association is an association of the individual water users in the Salt River Valley, incorporated to do business through their officers with the Government on this Roosevelt-Salt River reclamation project, and it was thought necessary to list the Pima lands previous to the time that I had charge of them, and I deemed that it it was necessary at that time to list those lands it was also necessary to list the lands which were to be given to the Camp McDowell Indians. Mr. Sloan. But I understood you yesterday to say that the con- tract for water through the Arizona canal would be made directly with the Government. Have you informed yourself now so as to know? Mr. CoE. I know nothing more about it now than yesterday. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not it is a fact that only the storage waters of the Roosevelt Dam and Tonto Basin are subject to contract with the water users' association ? Mr. CoE. I can not say positively, but I believe that is true, not with the water users' association, I understand, but with the Recla- mation Service. Mr. Sloan. The natural flow of the water which has been appro- priated is the right above a contract ? Mr. CoE. I think so. Mr. Sloan. And only those lands which are dependent entirely upon either the flood waters or the storage waters are dependent upon a contract either with the water users' association or the Recla- mation Service ? Mr. CoE. As I understand it, I think that is correct. Mr. George. Let me understand that? I do not quite under- stand your point. Mr. Sloan. My idea is this: The storage waters of the Tonto Basin or the Roosevelt Reservoir are the only ones that are under the control of the water users' association, with whom it is necessary to make con- tracts for water to irrigate, and that the original water rights, those of the natural flow of the streams, constitute appropriated rights that are appurtenant to the lands to which they were supplied before this project was inaugurated and that they are not subject to that project. I would like to offer now Mr. Coe's letter of July 11, 1910. The Chairman. Proceed. Do you recognize it as your letter, Mr. Coe? Mr. CoE (after examining letter). Yes, sir. EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPARTMENT. 589 (The letter referred to follows :) Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., July 11, 1910. Commissioner op Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: I have been steadily working on the problem of removing the Indiana from Camp McDowell to farming lands on the Salt River Reservation. The Indians themselves are generally bitterly opposed to the move. There are a few families, however, that are ready to go as soon as it can be arranged. I think there will be about 30 persons make the change, of which 10 will be adult men. I have taken this matter up with the district com-t, the water commissioner, and the officials of the Reclamation Service. The court will order as much of the 390 inches of water that these Indians have at Camp McDowell as is necessary to be diverted from the Arizona canal to such lands on the Salt River Reservation as may be selected. Mr. Hill, of the Reclamation Service, says he will put in a concrete head gate and a water meter for these Indians upon application. The next step will be to test the land for depth of soil, alkalai, etc. After that the lands selected will have to be surveyed. Will your office send some one to do this or shall we have it done by a local surveyor? I have estimated that it will cost about $225 to have the surveying done by local parties. When the lands have been definitely selected, I think it will be necessary to list them with the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association. Practically all the lands entitled to water under the Salt River irrigation project, including the Pima's lands on Salt River Reservation, have been so listed. This association is recognized by the Reclamation Service- as representing the water users, and all business with the water users will be done through the association. By listing the lands the Indiana will enjoy the same rights and get the same protection that any other water users get. It seems to me that under the decree of the district court the McDowell Indians' right to use water is rather precarious, and if by listing their lands with the association we can put them in the Class A lands that we should do so. It may save expensive litigation at some future time when there might be a scarcity of water. It will cost about II per acre to list the land if it is done soon. I, presume the department will have to pay the annual assessments against the land to pay for the Roosevelt Dam, maintenance charges, etc. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Mr. Sloan. I will hand you a letter of date of March 1, 1911, and ask you if the original of that letter was submitted by you or through you to the parties there addressed ? Mr. Coe (after examining letter). I am not positive whether that letter was sent direct to the parties addressed or submitted through me. I am of the opinion, however, that the original was sent directly to the parties addressed and a copy submitted to me. Mr. Sloan. Do you recognize it as a copy among the files of your office? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And received by you in your official capacity ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There are two letters; which one do you refer to, the letter of Mr. Hawke or the letter of Mr. Gundei'son ? Mr. Coe. I only looked at the first one, Mr. Chairman. (The letter referred to follows :) David Gilbert and Minnie Gilbert (Through Superintendent Gamp McDowell Indian Schixjl), McDowell, Ariz. My Friends: It has been brought to the attention of the office that you are the first two Indians belonging on the Camp McDowell Reservation who have agreed to accept allotments on the Salt River Reservation and have indicated your willingness by selecting the lands wp.nted in allotment. 590 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPAETMENT. The office is very much pleased with your action in this matter and hopes that you will use your good influence to induce other members of your tribe to select irrigable lands on the Salt River Reservation. It should be needless, of course, to add that the office believes the irrigation project on the Salt River Reservation to be an assured one, while the prospect of furnishing permanent water satisfactorily controlled for such lands as may be susceptible of irrigation on the Camp McDowell is very uncertain. It will be readily seen, therefore, that it is to the best interests of the Indians to take in allotment lands which practically have a guaranteed supply of water for irrigation purposes. Respectfully, C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. Department op the Interior, United States Indian Service, Salt River Indian Reservation, Scottsdale, Ariz., February 10, 1911. The Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: David Gilbert and his wife, Minnie Gilbert, two Camp McDowell Indians, being the first of their people to accept allotments on the Salt River Reservation, and this being done in direct opposition to the stand taken by the whole tribe, I consider it no more than just and proper that their action be recognized by the office in the form of a letter of commendation. I trust that the office will not regard this request as unimportant, becasue I can assure the office that it required no small amount of courage for these people to lead the way in the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation. Very respectfully, Carl Gunderson, Supervisor of Allotting Agents. Mr. Sloan. If I understood you correctly yesterday, you stated that there was no opposition or feeling among the Pima Indians against the allotment to the McDowell-Apaches on the Salt River Keservation. Was I correct in that understanding? Mr. CoE. There has never been any opposition brought to my knowledge. Mr. Sloan. You have had no occasion to communicate with the department as to that feeling ? Mr. CoE. I do not think I ever have. I do not recall that I ever did. Mr. Sloan. I will ask you to examine your letter of February 25, 1911, and identify it as yours, in order that the same may be offered in evidence. Mr. C'oE (after examining letter). I recognize the letter. (The letter referred to follows:) Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February 25, 1911. Hon. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washirigton, D. C. Sir: Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson, under telegraphic insti'uctions from your office, visited the Camp McDowell Reservation again on February 20 to take up further the question of allotments with the McDowell Indians. Not being able to get the Indians to agree to the proposals made to them, Mr. Gunderson suggested to them that they send a few delegates to Sacaton, Ariz., to talk the matter over with Inspector Linnen of the Secretary's office and with Mr. M. K. Sniffen, representing the Incfian Rights Association. That these gentlemen were there solely in the interests of the Indians and that the advice they would give would be of the best. Mr. Gunder- son suggested that I go with the Indians and pay their necessary expenses. This was agreeable to the Indians and they selected Cnief Yuma Frank, George Dickens, and Harry Mott, and Charles Dickens as interpreter. EXPENDITXJBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 591 Inspector Linnen had a conference with Mr. Gunderson, the Indian delegates, and myself the evening of February 22. It was explained to the Indians that the proposal of Mr. Gunderson to allot them 50 acres on the Camp McDowell Reservation and 5 acres on the Salt River Reservation with assured water was much better for the Indians than they could expect to get if House bill 31920 should become a law. Mr. Sniffen also assured them that the proposal was an exceptionally good one. The delegates were pleased with the plan of allotment for Camp McDowell Reservation but, speaking for themselves personally, would not take the 5 acres on the Salt River Reservation. They agreed, however, not to oppose any of the Indians who might want the additional 5 acres, and to return to McDowell and explain to the tribe, ■ Supervisor Gunderson has already reported this meeting and his recommendations in detail to your office. Special Allotting Agent Roblin made selections for 20 McDowell people of 5-acre tracts at Salt River to-day. This makes 42 selections that have already been made. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Department op the Interior. United States Indian Office. Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February &5, 1911. Hon. Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Supervisor of Allotting Agents Carl Gunderson recommended that Chief Juan Chappo and another Indian from Salt River, who were opposing the allotment work there and had practically blocked it, be taken to Sacaton for a conference with Inspec- tor E. B. Linnen and Mr. Sniffen at the same time the McDowell Indians were taken over. Juan Chappo's principal reason for his opposition was that he was not satisfied that the allotting agent was a properly authorized officer of the department, and that he did not thoroughly understand what allotment means. He also said he was waiting imtil the Indians from all the reservations in central Arizona met in a big council at Sacaton. He seemed to think Inspector Linnen would call this council. He very reluctantly consented to go with us to meet Mr. Linnen, preferring to wait for a council. He finally agreed to go, provided he could take his own interpreter and another Pima Indian, Juan Jones, as a witness. Inspector Linnen met these people on the morning of February 23 and explained at length all the objections they offered. Juan Chappo then agreed to go back to Salt River Reservation and tell all his people the thmgs the inspector explained to him, take his own allotment, and to advise all the other Indians to do so. We therefore feel that our trip to Sacaton, with both the delegates from the McDowell Indians* and Chief Juan Chappo and party from Salt River, will result in a great deal of good. , J Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Superintendent. Mr. Sloan. The Indians whose names appear in the letter just read are Pima Indians, are they not ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And Indians undeT your charge ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. I might explain in connection with that letter that none of the objections of the Pima Indians that went to Sacaton was that the McDowell Indians be given lands on the Salt River Reservation. It was another matter entirely. Mr. Sloan. What was the objection I Mr. Coe. The principal objection was, as stated in the letter, that they did not recognize Allotting Agent Roblin as being an authorized officer of the Government, and another objection was that they thought they were not getting enough water for their lands. Mr. Sloan. What was meant by the reference that they deemed it necessary to hold a general council before giving such consent i Mr. Coe. Inspector Linnen from the Interior Department was in that section of the country making an investigation and the Indians 592 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPAETMBNT. seemed to have the idea that he was going to call a general council of the Indians to talk over matters at Sacaton at some time. Mr. Gunderson had already seen Mr. Linnen and talked with him and felt sure that he contemplated nothing of that sort, so we thought it would be a good idea to get the Indians over there to see the inspector and assure themselves that nothing of the kind was expected. Mr. Sloan. As far as the consent of the Pima Indians to the grant- ing of rights to other Indians upon other reservations, it should have included the consent of other Pimas upon the Sacaton and other reser- vations, should it not ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, the rights of those Pimas on the Salt River Reser- vation is exclusive as against the other Pimas at Sacaton and else- where ? Mr. CoE. It is a distinct reservation and the Pima Indians of Gila River Reservation would have no rights whatever on the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Sloan. What right, at the time this letter was written, did the McDowell Indians have upon the Salt River Reservation without the consent of the Pimas there? Mr. CoE. I hardly know how to answer that question. It seems to me that is a question for the office to decide. Mr. Sloan. Was there any doubt in your mind about the right of the McDowell Indians there ? Mr. CoE. There was not. Mr. Sloan. What was the purpose, then, of conferring with these men, the representatives of the Pimas on the Salt River Reservation? Mr. CoE. There was no conference on that question at all. Mr. Sloan. Then by what authority had they that right? Mr. CoE. I do not quite understand what you mean. Mr. Sloan. You say the conference was not in reference to the getting the consent of the Pimas on the Salt River Reservation to the location of the McDowell Apaches on their reservation and if there was no such purpose there must have been some rights iu -exist- ence that your office recognized as the supervisor of those people, and what was it ? Mr. CoE. That was a matter which had been taken up and settled before I had any jurisdiction over either the Camp McDowell or the Salt River Reservation. I had never questioned the right at aU. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not that question had been taken up by J. B. Alexander? Mr. CoE. I have no personal knowledge of what he may have taken up with the office; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you see his correspondence in reference to the matter ? Mr. Toe. Only sucli as has been ]>rinted in the record. The Chairman. Was Mr. Alexander, Mr. Coe, your predecessor? Mr. CoE. No, sir; he was superintendent of the Gila River Indian Reservation, and prior to July, 1910, the Salt River Reservation was under ids jurisdiction. On that date it was consolidated with the (/amp McDowell Reservation and placed under my charge. Mr. Sloan. Do you have access to the files and correspondence of Mr. -J. B. Alexander relating to a conference on the Salt River Reser- vation ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 593 Mr. CoE. I have not. Mr. Sloan. You do not know, then, of a recommendation being made that the Camp McDowell Indians be located upon the Salt River Reservation without the knowledge of the Pimas on that reservation, and that it be quietly done ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you have any instructions to that effect ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Who was the presiding officer of the Indian Depart- ment at this conference referred to in the letter ? Mr. CoE. Inspector E. B. Linnen. Mr. Sloan. Who at that conference was the officer directly in charge of the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. I was the superintendent of the Salt River Reservation at that time. Mr. Sloan. You were the representative of the Indians on that reservation ? Mr. CoE. The Indians were there to represent themselves. Mr. Sloan. Against you and these other officers who had assem- bled there ? Mr. CoE. I do not think it was against anybody; they were simply there for information. Mr. Sloan. It concerned, however, the granting of considerable land, more than 1,000 acres of the Salt River Reservation to other Indians, did it not ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; it had nothing to do with that at all. That question was not brought up. Mr. Sloan. When was tne question brought up with the Pima Indians, if at all ? Mr. CoE. I do not know. Previous to the time I had any control over them at all. Mr. Sloan. Had there been any steps taken in the way of allot- ments on the Salt River Reservation prior to your time there as superintendent in charge ? Mr. CoE. There had been no actual allotments made; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. And no Indians had made selections prior to your time? Mr. CoE. They were all living on land which they regarded as their own and had been farming it for years. Mr. Sloan. That is, the Mohave Apaches ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; the Salt River Indians. Mr. Sloan. Well, had the Mohave Apaches made selections upon the Salt River Reservation prior to your time, if you know ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. In the authority granted for the payment of allotting expenses and the purchase of stakes, etc., being the items of $943.31 and $564.60, to whom were those sums charged ? Mr. CoE. I would have to see the accounts before I would be able to give you the information on that. Mr. Sloan. You can not tell without examining such accounts whether the whole charges were made against the Pimas on the Salt River Reservation or divided between them and the Camp McDowell Apaches 1 594 EXPBNDITXJRES IN THE INTEKIOE DEFABTMENT. Mr. CoE. I do not think I could determine that even from the accounts; the office would have to do that. Mr. Sloan. The disbursements from your office and authority and knowledge in reference to the same would be money expended on account of the Pima Indians, and the only fund to which they would be chargeable? Mr. CoE. All the disbursements for allotting work were from the fund, surve3dng and allotting Indian reservations. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember whether your accounts were put that way, reimbursable? Mr. CoE. The funds are designated as reimbursable; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. When so designated, against whom are they reim- bursable ? Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge as to that. I suppose you will get that from the Indian Office. I have not been informed. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of any fimds available or means by which it could be made reimbursable against the Mohave Apaches of McDowell? Mr. CoE. I do not. Mr. Sloan. Has there been a gristmill upon the McDowell Keser- vation since your time there ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Had it been abandoned before your time? Mr. CoE. I never heard that there ever was one there. Mr. Sloan. What do you know about bee culture among the Mohave Apaches ? Mr. Ck)E. I know it was attempted some years ago, but it did not prove very successful. Mr. Sloan. Did you give it any attention during your time there? Mr. CoE. The Indians' bees had practically all died before I took charge. I went doAvn and examined the hives, and I only found five or six live ones among all of them. Mr. Sloan. Was that maintained at the agency under the charge of the superintendent or the farmer or was it otherwise? Mr. CoE. I understood that it was maintained by the Indians themselves. Mr. Sloan. Under the direction of anybody? Mr. Cqe. I think it was originally under the direction of the mis- sionary. Mr. Sloan. What has become of the missionary ? Mr. Coe. There is a missionary there now. Mr. Sloan. How long has he been there ? Mr. Coe. I do not know. He was there when I took charge. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not he had anything to do with the bee culture? Mr. Coe. He had some bees himself and he employed the Indians in helping him to take care of the bees, and I have understood that he has been trying to get the Indians to devote some time to that industry- Mr. Sloan. Were you kept busy with your office work and school work most of the time at McDowell ? Mr. Coe. Very nearly all the time; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was your wife an employee in the service there? Mr. Coe. A part of the time. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPARTMENT. 595 Mr. Sloan. How much of the time during the time you w^ere there ? Mr. CoE. I think about one-half of the time; possibly a little more. Mr. Sloan. Was anyone else employed as teacher during that time ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was Nellie Henly David an employee under your direction ? Mr. CoE. She was employed as housekeeperfor a short time, and she did some teaching in the schoolroom. She was not employed as a teacher, but as housekeeper. There is no teacher authorized. Mr. Sloan. How much of the time did she teach in the school ? Mr. CoE. I can not give you the exact time. I think perhaps six weeks altogether. Mr. Sloan. I understood you to say yesterday that on the Salt River Reservation no ditches or laterals had been connected with the Arizona Canal to water any of that land. Was that right ? Mr. CoE. To water any of the land intended for the Mohave- Apaches; that is right. Mr. Sloan. Have you made any request for authority or money to use for that purpose ? Mr. CoE. There was a request made last spring some time. Mr. Sloan. Has that authority been granted ? Mr. CoE. It has not, to my knowledge, to date. Mr. Sloan. How long would it take to prepare laterals and get the ground in condition for cropping purposes ? Mr. CoE. That is a matter which could not be answered definitely, but the contour of the land is very favorable for preparing it for cul- tivation. It ought to take but a short time. Mr. Sloan. Could the Indians move upon the lands and put in the necessary laterals and ditches for irrigating and raising crops in one year, the first year they located there ? Mr. CoE. In less time than that, I think, easily. Mr. Sloan. There would not be the loss of a year in cropping if they moved to the land ? Mr. CoE. I do not think so. Mr. Sloan. Would they be able, the Indians from the McDowell Reservation, to put in the necessary laterals and to irrigate the lands without assistance from the Government ? Mr. CoE. They would be able to do so, but I hardly think they should be required to do so. Mr. Sloan. So far as your request has been made to this time the department has made no provision for those who might wish to remove there ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Mr. Sloan. What sum did you ask authority to expend in that class of construction ? Mr. CoE. I do not remember the exact amount; I think something like $700. Mr. Sloan. Would that be sufficient to prepare the ditches and to furnish irrigable lands for all the McDowell Indians if they were to remove to the Salt River ? Mr. CoE. Of course, I would not be able to say positively whether or not it would, but it would come very near doing it, I think. Mr. Sloan. Did you make an estimate based upon an examination by yourself or an engineer or some one familiar with the conditions ? 596 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOH DEPAETMENT. Mr. CoE. T have been over the lands a number of times myself and I made the estimate in. conjunction with Supervisor Gunderson and Allotting Agent Roblin. Mr. Sloan. Were they experienced men in that line of work? Mr. CoE. Both of them are experienced surveyors; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Were they connected with the allotting service or the Reclamation Service of the Indian Oifice ? Mr. CoE. The allotting office of the Indian Department. Mr. Sloax. Mr. Coe, I hand you copy of a letter dated April 30, 1910, addressed to you as superintendent of the Camp McDowell School, McDowell, Ariz., and signed by Valentine and ask you if you remember receiving the original thereof [handing witness letter]. Mr. CoE (after examining letter). Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. I will ask that the letter be inserted in the record. (The letter referred to follows:) report op supervisor harwood hall. April 30, 1910. {'harles E. Coe, Esq., Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sir: Supervisor Harwood Hall, in his report of April 18, on the Camp McDowell School and the remo\al of the Indians says a consultation has been held with them concerning the abandonment of their ancestral home and their removal to the Salt River Reservation, where 1,400 acres of splendid land with plenty of irrigat- ing water, has been tentatively set aside for them. However, with the exception of two young men, they refused to consider the proposition. In view of the willingness of these two young men to accept the change, it is sug- gested that you make an example of them, giving them every possible advantage and encouragement, and requesting the allotting agent to establish them on the best allot- ments he can find. It is left to your tact and judgment by so far enlisting the enthusiasm of these young men as to bring about a similar spirit in others of the tribe to whom their example may appeal. Assure the tribe that they will be allowed to retain the use of the present Camp McDowell Reservation for pasturage, etc., as long as they may find it necessary to do so. In this way it may be borne on the Indians that the change will be to their advantage and the sooner made the better. Please give the office information as to yoiu- success in accomplishing the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation. Supervisor Hall suggests that additional positions of matron and housekeeper be created for your school in view of the change in your jurisdiction. However, your first list of positions and salaries for the next fiscal )-ear includes a matron at $720 per annum, who will teach and also act as housekeeper. You later recommend that a financial clerk at .?720 and a housekeeper at .'^300 per annum be authorized. Please make explicit recommendation in accordance mtli the supervisor's report. The superintendent of the Pima Reservation reports that in the event of the removal of the Camp McDowell Indians to Salt River a second day school at Salt River will be necessary to meet the needs of the Mojaves. Please let your report include a separate recommendation on this important feature. Very respectfully, . (Signed) R. G. Valentine, Commissioner. Mr. Slo,\n. Calling your attention, Mr. Coe, to an authority request of January 14, 1911, I will ask you to state whether or not that is an original signed by you [handing witness paper]? Mr. CoE (after examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Is that one of the official papers of your account as superintendent of the Camp McDowell Reservation"? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. ]\Ir. Sloan. Also one of Februaiy 27, 1911 [handing witness paper]? EXPENDITUfiES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 597 Mr. CoE (after examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And also one of January 14, 1911, concerning Allotting Agent Charles E. Roblin [handing witness paper] ? Mr. CoE (after examining paper). Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. I ask that the tlu-ee accounts be accepted in evidence. (The accoimts referred to follow:) SETTLEMENT OF INDEBTEDNESS. ,r r. -n: n FEBRUARY 1, 1911. Mr. Charles E. Coe, Superintendent Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz. Sir: The office is in receipt of your requests of Januaiy 14, 1911, for authority to settle indebtedness in amount $943.31 and $564.60, respectively, listed as vouchers Nos. 10 to 20, inclusive. Before authority for settlement of this indebtedness can be granted it will be neces- sary for you to forward the vouchers showing the articles purchased. For instance, the request listpd as voucher No. 11 calls for S220.76 in payment for harness, stoves^ and other supplies. Without the subvoucher No. 11 the office is not able to determine what other supplies are included therein. Respectfully, (Signed) C. F. Hauke, Second Assistant Commissioner. Department of the Interior, Untted States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDouell, Ariz., January 14, 1911. The Co-mmissioner of Indian Affairs, ^yashington, D. C. Sir: Authority is respectfully requested for the settlement of an indebtedness of $943.31, incurred during the second quarter," 1911, as evidenced by the following- described vouchers, which I request be retained for file with my accounts; Voucher. Quarter. Name of claimant and purpose of -r. , . expenditiu-e. | ^""d. Amount. 10 U 12 13... Second.. ...do ...do do Allotting Salt River Resena- tion: Goldman & Co., Phoenix, Ariz., for , Surveying and allotting Indian spring wagon, etc. ' reservations (reimbursable). Ezra W. Thayer, Phoenix, Ariz., for ' do harness, stoves, and other supplies. ' H. M. Warren, Phoenix, Ariz., for 1 do team. 1 Phoenix Tent & Awning Co., Phoenix, do Ariz., for 4 tents, tarpaulin, etc. j Valley Lumber Co., Phoenix, .Vriz., for do lumber and doors for tents. S154.00 220.76 375.00 93. So 14 15 ...do ...do 91.10 8.60 for supplies. Total 943.31 Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Supt. andS. D. A. 598 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Department op the Interior, (^FFicK OP Indian Affairs, Washington'. authority.' Authority is hereby granted for the settlement of an indebtedness of $943.31 incurred during the second quarter, 1911, as evidenced by the following-described vouchere which are retained for file with Nonr account: \'oiH'lior. ' Qimrtoi". 10. . . 11... 12... 13... 14... 1.")... Si'i'oiul ...do.... ,..ilo.... ...lio.... ..lio.... . .ill).... Name of claimant and purpose of ex- penditure. Allotting Salt River Kesi-rvu- tlon: (ioldman ct Co., riuioiiix. Ariz., for spring ivagou. ete. Ezra ^\'. 'I'iKiyer. Phoenix, .Vriz., for harness, stoves, and other .siijiplics. ri. M. ANaiTon, I'lioeuix, Xri?... for 1 learn. rimeni\ Ti'ill i*; .Vwniiiii t'o., riioenix. .Vriz., for 1 tenl.s, larpaiiliii, rlr. Wiilev l.tiinher To.. I'lioeiiix. Ariz., for liiinlier niiil doors for leiits. !>!ivldson's I'lu^li I'^tore, I'luieliix, Ariz., for supplies. Total . Fund. Surveying ami allotting Indltui reservations (rcimburssblo). do • do ... .do .do. Amount. SIM. 00 220, 7(i 376.00 till. S.i 111.10 8.1» 943, 31 To the SUFEKINTENDENT, Cniiip McDoircll Si'hniil, ,\[rl^oirill. Ari:. Department op the Interior, Uniteii States Indian Servick, (^\MP McDowKLi, Indian School, McPoirill, Ariz., .lonniini Uf, 1911. The CoM>tt8.'(iONER OF Indian .Vi'-fAius, Wa.-iliinijloii. D. ('. Sib: Aufliority is resiieclftilly rcinii-sled for tho Hottlciiiciit of an indeblednoBS of •1564. liU, incurrcil during the scroiid (|uartcr, 1!)II, as evidciicod by the following- described voticlicr.H, which I request bo rclaiii(>d I'dr file with my accounts: .do. ..do. .do. ..do. Name of ( lainianl and piirposi' of e\- luMiditiire. Allolling Salt \l\\vr Keserva- linii: i..' ( :riinrs-S1assforth Stationery Co., l,os .ViiKi'les, Cal., for blanks and blank hooks. ... .lones IMy (Joods ("o,, t'luienix, Ariz., for supplies. ...| .1, K. baniherl, I'lioenix. ,\riz., for t Icani. ..,■ I'ralt-iiilhi'rl Co., rlioi'iiix, Ariz,, fori sprini; \v;i^;on and taUTiess, J nan ICnos ( Indian ), for bay and wood. Total . Fund. SiirNcying and allotting Indian ri'seiAaiions (reindiiu'Sable). do (14. 35 1.2.1 :i,'ii). 110 17,'i.tK) 24, 00 !M.m \'i'ry respci'l fully, ('haules K, ('ok, Siipl. inidS. /). .1, Fnndsbed in triplii-ale EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Department or the Interior, Office of Indian Affairs, Washington. 599 authority.' Authority is hereby granted for the settlement of an indebtedness of $564.60, in- curred dunng the second quarter, 1911, as evidenced by the following-described vouchers, which are retained for file with your account: Voucher. Quarter. Name of claimant and purpose of expenditure. Fund. Amount. 16 17 Second . . ...do ...do ...do ...do Allotting Salt River Reserva- tion: Grimes Stassforth Stationery Co., Los Angeles, Cal., for lilanlcs and blanlc boolcs. Jones Dry Goods Co., Phoenix, Ariz., for supphes. J. 11. Lambert, Phoenix, Ariz,, for 1 team. Pratt-Gilliort Co., Plioenix, Ariz., for 1 spring wagon and harness. Surveying and allotting Indian reservations (reimbursable). do . ... $14. 35 1.25 18 19 do do 360. 00 175. 00 20 do.... 24.00 Total.... 564. 60 To the Superintendent, Camp McDowell School, McDowell, Ariz, sum Department or the Interior, United States Indian Service, (Jamp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., February 27, 1911. The Commissioner of Indian Akpairs, ]Vasliingion, D. C. Sir: Authority is respectfully requested to expend, during the fiscal year filll, the um of $50 from the appropriation "Indian school buildinf,'s, 11)11." To pay Margaret Enos, a Pima Indian, for her rights and title to 3.53 acres of land in Iho SW. i of SE. i of .seclion 32 T. 2 N., R. 5 E., .said lands being required for school purposes on tlie Salt River Reservation §50. 00 Very respectfully, , „ . Charles E. ("oe, Supl. and 8. D. A. Authority granted for $50. W. A. P. Charge against apportionment. H. J. S. 1 Furnislied in triplicalc 600 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Department of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Camp McDowell Indian School, McDowell, Ariz., January 14, 1911. The Commissioner op Indian Appairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: Authority is respectfully requested for the settlement of an indebtedness of $120.35, incurred during the second quarter, 1911, as evidenced by the foUowing- described vouchers, which I request be returned for file with my accounts: Voucher. Quarter. Name of claimant and purpose of ex- penditure. Fund. Amount. 2 Third... Chas. E. RobUn, special allotting agent, for necessary traveling expenses in connection with allotting Salt River Reservation. Total Surveying and allotting Indian reservations (reimbursable). $120.35 120 35 Jan. 27, 1911. O. K. in land. J. F. J., chief of division. Authority granted for $120.38 Feb. 3, 1911.— W. A. P. Apportioned. Very respectfully, Charles E. Coe, Supt. and S. D. A. Mr. Sloan. I think that is all. Mr. Coe, it has occurred to me that possibly there might be some point I have gone over that you would like to explain in your own way or something you might msh to add. Mr. CoE. There are a few things. There is one tiling in reference to the distances yesterday that was a little mixed up that I would hke to correct. The distance from the old headquarters at McDowell to Phoenix is 33 miles and from old Camp McDowell headquarters to the present headquarters on the Salt River reservation is about 22 miles. The distance from the old headquarters to this land [indi- cating on map] that we offered to the Camp McDowell Indians to this bridge crossing is about 12 miles. Mr. George. Where is that? Mr. CoE. The Arizona Canal. The Chairman. How wide is that canal at the point where the bridge crosses it? Mr. CoE. About 70 feet wide on the bottom, and I beUeve it is being widened 10 feet more just now. The distance from where these Indians are living now at McDowell, their present homes, to this land would vary from 6 or 7 miles to 16 or 17 miles, and if they farmed on the land on the Salt River Reservation it would bring them that much nearer to all the markets. Mr. George. From 6 to 17 miles nearer? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. George. That is practically what you stated yesterday. Mr. Coe. Now, I would like to explain a little bit about these ditches in connection with the Camp McDowell Reservation. You notice here [indicating] what is called the old Government ditch. This is the first ditch tnat was taken out on the Verde River on what is now the Camp McDowell Indian Reservation. As I understand it, it was contemplated when the Army occupied this tract of land as a military reservation a great many years ago that the land that ditch supplied was a trifle over 60 acres. When the military authori- EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 601 ties abandoned the reservation there were a great many squatters who came ia and took up lands on the reservation. They then took out another ditch, which is known as the Jones Ditch, and is what we might call a high-line canal. Under that ditch there are a great many other tracts of land. All this [indicating on map], with the exception of the 60 acres here [indicating on map], was reclaimed at a later date. I am unable to give the exact date. Mr. George. What do you mean by the "60 acres here" ? Mr. CoE. The 60 acres under cultivation by the Army as a garden! That was the first Government ditch. They also took out a ditch lower down called the Mazon ditch, which irrigated approximately 90 acres. This was a later date. On the other side of the river there was another ditch contemplated which irrigated 415 acres, called the Velasco ditch. This ditch [indicating on map] has been abandoned for a good many years. The head of this ditch washed out and a good deal of the farm laiid below has been washed away. Some two or three years after the Indians took possession of this land the head of the Jones ditch also washed out and made it impossible for them to irrigate these lands [indicating on map] tlirough that ditch. Then the old Government ditch was reconstructed at the head and was extended farther down to take in some of the lower lands that the Jones ditch formerly served. All the higher land on the Jones ditch could not be served with water from the Government ditch, and so the l,-300 acres of irrigable land in this reservation that was irrigated at the time it was taken by the Indians as a reservation has been diminished by the washing out of tlie heads of the different ditches until now it is approximately not over 600 acres, of which about 450 are in actual cultivation. Mr. Hanna. Was there more than one dam up tliere when the white settlers were there ? Mr. CoE. I think not. Mr. Hanna. The one Government dam filled the Jones Ditch also ? Mr. CoE. There was only a dam at the head of the Jones Ditch at that time. Mr. Hanna. Is that where the dam is now? Mr. CoE. No, sir; it is lower down at the head of the old Govern- ment ditch. The Chairman. About how far from the northern boundary of the reservation ? Mr. CoE. I think about a mile and a half Mr. Chairman; I am not positive. I am not sure that this map is absolutely correct as to the location of the head gate. The Chairman. The head of the old Jones Ditch was very close to the northern boundary of the land ? Mr. CoE. Very close, but I am under the impression that it was off the Indian reservation. The Chairman. When you speak about the ditch being taken out, what do you mean by the expression "taken out" ? Mr. CoE. I mean the head work was put in, a diversion dam was made in the river, a temporary construction, which enabled them to take the water out of the river and put it into the ditch. The Chairman. What was taken out, the dam? Mr. CoE. The water was taken out. 98240— No. 15—11 2 602 BXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOE DBPAKTMENT. The Chairman. You have spoken a number of times of the ditch being taken out ? Mr. CoE. The ditch was constructed and a diversion dam was made which enabled them to take the water out of the river and divert it into the ditch^ and in common usage out in Arizona that is called taking out a ditch. The Chairman. I misunderstood you. I thought it was equiva- lent to saying that a ditch was destroyed ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I did not mean that at all. The Chairman. It simply means, then, the starting point; the point at which the ditch leaves the river ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. There has been quite a good deal of testimony about the Indians once or twice a year cleaning out the ditch at its head. That is not a very difficult thing to do, is it; simply a matter of labor ? Mr. CoE. It is a matter of labor, and the amount of labor of course depends on the amount of damage that is done to the head of the ditch by the last flood. The Chairman. The old Government ditch that you speak of and the Jones Ditch that has been partly abandoned would come under that description too, would they not? That is, work devoted to cleaning them out at and near the head of the river would make them good ? Mr. CoE. I doubt very much if the Jones Ditch could be made good at all. The Chairman. Why ? Mr. CoE. At the point where it is taken out the river has cut out " a big body of land, cut it out of the bank, and it is considerably deeper than it was at the time the ditch was taken out. I mean the bed of the river is deeper, and in order to get water out of the river at that point I think the whole ditch would have to be deepened considerably. The Chairman. So the surplus water is lower than the river ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How far below that point would they have to make the head of the ditch in order to reach the level of the water? Mr. CoE. This is a higher canal and instead of coming down the river to get a head you would have to go up. The Chairman. Have you since yesterday obtained any informa- tion about the distance from the northern boundary of the McDowell Keservation to a point on the Verde where the dam would be feasible ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. I have no records or anything whereby I could obtain that information. The Chairman. Mr. Sloan submitted to you some statements con- cerning the purchase of some stakes to be. used in the laying out of allotments on the Salt Kiver Reservation. Have you those state- ments convenient now ? I wish you would look at the one providing for the purchase of stakes [handing witness paper]. Mr. CoE (after examining paper) . Mr. Chairman, there is nothing concerning stakes on this one. I mi^ht state now, Mr. Chairman, that those stakes were purchased by the office and not by me. The Chairman. Did you not have anything to do with that pur- chase up there ? EXPENDITURES IN" THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 603 Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Well, you knew what they were for, I suppose ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Were they actually used? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The contract price, I believe, was $2,000 or about $2,000 ? Mr. CoE. I believe so. The Chairman. And it was reimbursable ? Mr. CoE. I have no knowledge, Mr. Chairman, out of what fund th^ might have been purchased. The Chairman. Is it not a fact, from the correspondence you have seen, or do you not know as a matter of fact, that it is reimbursable ? Mr. CoE. I do not know. The Chairman. Have you no information on that point ? Mr. CoE. I have not any. The Chairman. Do you loiow what authority there was for the making of that contract, and the expenditure of that money ? Mr. CoE. That was a matter that was handled in the office here in Washington, and of course I know nothing about it. The Chairman. What is the meaning of the term "reimbursable" when so used ? Mr. CoE. You had better get that from the office, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Do you not know ? Mr. CoE. I really have very little to do with such things as that. The funds are deposited to my use and designated as certain funds, and I use them as such. The Chairman. To some extent you are an expert in Indian afi'airs, and particularly on the reservation where you haA^e charge. If you know what that means we would just as lief get the information from you as from anybody. Mr. CoE. I would prefer that you get it from somebody else. The Chairman. Do you mean that you do not know and can not answer the question ? Mr. CoE. I can not answer it very well; no, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of the other items which Mr. Sloan mentioned to j^ou, and the bills for which, or the vouchers for which, he handed to you, one being for $940 in the aggregate? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you recall that one ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you remember now what items, speaking gen- erally, were covered in that bill ? Mr. CoE. It was all equipment for the allotting crew. The Chairman. That is, in connection with the expense of provid- ing the allotments for the McDowell Indians in the Salt River country ? Mr. CoE. It was all purchased primarily for the allotment work at Salt River, I think. The Chairman. Was it confined to the McDowell part of the Salt River: to that portion where the McDowell Indians were expected to go ? Mr. CoE. I presume so. The Chairman. It, too, was marked "reimbursable" ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. 604 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOK DEPABTMENT. The C HAiKMAN. Had 3-011 anything to do with the items in that bill ? Ml. CoE. All those purchases were made under my supervision; yes, sii. The Chairman. And what authority was there, so far as you know, for the expenditure of that money ? Mr. CoE. There was an authority granted by the Indian Office. The Chairman. Out of what fund was that payable? Mr. CoE . Surveying and allotting Indian reservations ; reimbursable. The Chairman. What does "reimbursable" mean in that sense? Mr. CoE. That is the same question that was put to me before. I do not know what that means in regard to the fund. The Chairman. These passed through your hands, you say ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Do you know from whom this money would be reimbursable ? Mr. CoE. I do not. The Chairman. You have no knowledge on that subject? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. I suppose you are reasonably sure that the agent was not to furnish it ? Mr. CoE. He would not, of course. The Chairman. Who could there be, except the Indians, to replen- ish that depleted fund — reimburse it ? Mr. CoE. Of course, Mr. Chairman my personal opinion would be that it would be the Indians; but as I said, that is a matter that I do not know positively. It is something that is determined in the Indian Office. The Chairman. Do you remember what was in the third of those bills, amounting to about $500 ? You recall there was one item in it for about .|150, including harness and some other things, for which an explanation was demanded ? Mr. CoE. I recall that there were two teams, two harnesses, and two wagons, and a camp equipment. I thinlt that is all that I recall just now. T]ie Chairman. Did you purchase those? Mr. CoE. Yes. Tlie Chairman. Upon wl\at authority ? Mr. CoE. On a letter from the Indian OfRce directing Mr. Roblin to come to Camp ^IcDowell Agency and begin the allotting work. The Chairman. Has that letter been put in the record, that you know of ? Mr. CoE. I do not remember whether it has or not. I have the letter Jicrc, ]\[r. Cliairman. The Chairman. Will you please read it for our information? (Mr. Coe liere read aloud to the committee the letter referred to, dated Oct. 28, 1910.) 'i lie Chajejian. The purcliases were made in accordance with the suggestions in that letter, I suppose ? Mr. CoE. Yes. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, do you loiow what the law is with refer- ence to getting authority to expend monej^ for any particular Indians, and then making that reimbursable; whether it is necessary to get their consent to such expenditures or not? Mr. Coe. I do not know. EXPENDITUEBS IN THE INTBKIOE. DEPARTMENT. 605 The Chairman. There was no consent obtained from the McDowell Indians at any time or in any way for any of those expenditures I have been asldng you 'about ? Mr. CoE. There was not. The Chairman. That is equally true of the survey of the allot- ments on Salt River ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. I think you conducted that yourself; you at least paid out the money ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The survey was done by the General Land Ofhce, under the direction of Mr. Dunning. The Chairman. Were you not allowed from the Indian Office some $225 for survey ? Mr. CoE. It was never allowed; no, sir. We did not make that survey. The Chairman. But if that amount was paid and made reim- bursable, it is equally true of it, that it was not authorized by any action on the part of the McDowell Indians. Mr. CoE. That was never authorized or never made, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. In fact, such a proposition was never submitted to them? Mr. CoE. No, sir; the proposition never was submitted and the expenditure was never made. The Chairman. I suppose you feel tolerably certain that if it was submitted to them, they would not indorse it ? Mr. CoE. Well, I never submitted any such proposition to them, and of course I can not say. The Chairman. How far do you care to venture an opinion as to whether they would indorse the expenditures I have been referring to which were made reimbursable ? Those expenditures were in accord with the views of a great majority of the McDowell Indians, were they? Mr. CoE. Those expenditures, Mr. Chairman, as I understand it, were not made for the McDowell Indians at all. The Chairman. Were they not made on the land which was being allotted for their use ? Mr. CoE. They were made for the allotment work on the Salt River Reservation, as this letter states, and of course the allotting agent would use that equipment, if he made the allotments on the Camp McDowell Reservation. The Chairman. Now, to clarify the other situation: Suppose that it is true that the Indians who would go on the allotted lands are the ones who would have to reimburse this fund. Would not the McDowell Indians have to do at least some of that reimbursing if they went on these lands ? Mr. CoE. If that were true, it might be. I am unable to answer that question. The Chairman. Assuming that that reimbursing appUes to the Indians who go on these allotted lands, and the McDowell Indians went on them, then would they not have to reimburse to the extent of the accepted allotments ? Mr. CoE. If we assume that that condition is true, I presume that they would. 606 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. Who else besides the McDowell Indians would have to reimburse any of the funds expended in this work for stakes, surveying, teams, and camps, and all that? Mr. CoE. All of these funds that have been used so far, Mr. Chair- man, have been used exclusively for work on the Salt Kiver Reservar tion. .» The Chairman. Yes; but my point particularly is. How much of it was expended on that part of tne Salt River Reservation to which it was expected the McDowell Indians would go? Mr. CoE. Very little of it. The Chairman. Could you give a per cent ? Mr. CoE. Not without makmg quite a computation of it. The Chairman. You could not even approximate ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. Twenty-five per cent of it ? Mr. CoE. Much less than that. The Chairman. Ten per cent ? Mr. CoE. Less than that. The Chairman. Five per cent. Mr. CoE. Five per cent, I think, would amply cover it; probably more. The Chairman. What other Indians were expected to go on the land on which this money was expended ? Mr. CoE. No other Indians were expected to go on the lands. The Pimas and Maricopas were already on these lands. The Chairman. Had they taken any action authorizing the expen- diture and consenting to make this expenditure reimbursable ? Mr. CoE. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. The Chairman. Do you know of any transitory authority or any authority for making expenditures of that sort, and making them reimbursable, without consulting the fellow who is to reimburse? Mr. CoE. I know nothing about that. The authorities are granted by the office, and we presume that they take care of the legal part of it. The" Chairman. I see. Well, who would know ? Who would probably know about those things? Mr. CoE. I presume that Mr. Valentine would know, or the Chief of the Land Division in the Indian Office. The Chairman. Wlio is that ? Mr. CoE. Mr. Francis. Mr. Meritt is here, and he can very hkely tell you. The Chairman. Very well. Is there anything you gentlemen wish to ask Mr. Coe ? Mr. Hensley. I have nothing. Mr. George. I have nothing. Mr. Sloan. I have one or two questions. Mr. Coe, you spoke yes- terday of some digging and testing of the soil about the Verde River on the McDowell Reservation, for a dam site. When did that occur, if you laiow ? Mr. Coe. I do not believe that I made that statement, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. You made a statement something like this, that they had dug a number of holes without being able to find any bottom. Do you recollect that, now ? Mr. Coe. I recall tliat I said I had been informed that the Reclar mation Service had made some soundings for a dam site, without finding bottom. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBKIOE DEPARTMENT. 607 Mr. Sloan. Do you know whereabouts that occurred ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Where? Mr. OoE. At the very lower end of the Camp McDoweU Reserva- tion, or just, perhaps, a httle below the line. I am not able to tell you the exact point, but there is a point where there is a granite ledge projects into the I'iver from the west side, and it was thought it might be possible to make another storage reservoir at that point, and I have been told that some soundings have been made. Mr. Sloan. It was somewhere near the south line of the ]\IcDowell Reservation ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Do j^ou know when that was done ? Mr. CoE. I do not. . Mr. Sloan. Have you seen any official report of it ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did I understand yo\i to say that it was done with a view of making a resei-voir, a dam, or something of that kind ? Mr. CoE. I believe that is what- it was done for. I am not very well informed on that. That is just one of the things I have heard out in that section of the country. Mr. Sloan. You do not remember your source of information '( Mr. CoE. I believe that I do. I think it was a ranchman that lives in the Yerde '\' alley, some few miles above the Camp McDowell Reservation. Mr. Sloan. The information (Ud not come to you, then, from an official source ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Nor in the course of your official business '. Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. You gave assurances to the Indians that if they would remove to the Salt River Reservation — those from McDowell — they would have assured water rights ; is that correct ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And that they would be allowed to retain their homes upon the Camp McDowell Reservation ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir; if they so desired. Mr. Sloan. What was your authority for that assurance ? Mr. CoE. Instructions from the Indian Office. Mr. Sloan. Were they in writing ? Mr. CoE. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Have you them with you ? Mr. CoE. I think so. (At 12.20 o'clock p. m. a recess was taken until 2 o'clock p. m.7 608 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. AFTERNOON SESSION. The committee met pursuant to the taking up of the recess. TESTIMONY OF ME. CHARLES E. COE— Continued. Mr. Hanna. The Indians on this reservation at Camp McDowell are they increasing or decreasing ? Mr. l'oe. I believe that they are just about holding their own. That has been the case in the last two censuses that I have taken. Before that, I am not prepared to say. Mr. IIanna. Is that reservation an Indian reservation or what is known as an Executive reservation ? Mr. CoE. An Executive-order reservation. Mr. Hanna. These Indians are simply there by sufferance at the present time ? Mr. CoE. As I understand it, yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. What is this other reservation that you speak of, the Salt River Reservation? Mr. CoE. I believe that is also an Executive order reservation. Mr. Hanna. Do I understand that there are different bands of Indians being allotted some lands on the Salt River reservation? Mr. CoE. The only Indians that have been allotted lands there are, I believe, the Pimas up to date and possibly a few of the Maricopas have taken allotments and there have 40 selections made by the McDowell Indians. However, I do not think that any of the allot- ments are yet completed. Mr. Hanna. Do you know what the intention of the Government is as to the balance of the reservation after these various Indians receive their allotments on the Salt River reservation, what is to be done with the balance of the land ? Mr. CoE. It is my impression that it is to be retained for the use of the tribe and such lands as are susceptible to irrigation wiU proba- bly be left to children that may be born later. Mr. Hanna. The Chairman, I believe, spoke this morning about some of the funds being reimbursable, the money used, for instance, for the purpose of the allotment work done down there. Has there ever been a suggestion or an intimation that it was the idea to sell the surplus lauds not taken by the Indians to the white men and to use that money to reimburse the funds ? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I do not think it has. Mr. Hanna. You know nothing as to that? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. George. I would like to understand about this Executive order reservation. What is an Executive order reservation, as you understand it ? Mr. CoE. It is a reservation, as I understand it, that is withdrawn from the public domain by an Executive order of the President for the occupany of certain Indians. Mr. George. Are Indians put there permanently? Mr. Coe. I know of no case where it has not been done permanently. Mr. George. Can they be removed at any time ? Mr. Coe. I am not prepared to give the legal aspect. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 609 Mr. George. I understood Mr. Hanna to ask you if they were there by sufferance, the McDowell Indians, for instance, when you said that this was an Executive-order reservation, and I understood you to say that the Indians were there by sufferance ? Mr. CoE. That is the idea that I had, that they could be removed; yes, sir. Mr. George. They are removable ? Mr. CoE. I am not prepared to say positively that they are. That is simply my idea that they could be, not that they ever would be. Mr. George. Have you ever seen any official papers that would lead you to that conclusion? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I do not recall that I have. Mr. George. How did you get that idea ? Mr. CoE. I do not know that I could tell you just how I got it. Mr. George. It is your idea that the McDowell Indians are there, but that they are removable to some other place — that they could be removed ? Mr. Coe. I believe thej'^ could be; I do not suppose they ever will be against their ^\^shes, but I believe they could be. That is my idea. Mr. George. The other kind of a reservation is a treaty reserva- tion ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. George. They can not be removed from a treaty reservation; do you understand that ? Mr. Coe. That is my understanding, yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. I want to just follow that up a little bit. You think on an Executive order reservation if the Indians had been allotted lands in severalty then, of course, they would have those lands and they would be allowed to stay there, but until such time the}- are subject to removal at any time ? Mr. Coe. That is the understanding. After having the lands allot- ted in severalty it is, in fact, giving them a patent — that is, the patent is held by the Government until the Indians become com- petent to handle' their own affairs, and they are then given a patent m fee and when allotted they can not be removed at all. Mr. Hensley. Have you any information with reference to the time when these Indians^ will be able to go out and battle for them- selves, independent of any action on the part of the Government ? Mr. Coe. No, sir; I could not set any limit as to the time that they will be able to do that. Mr. Hensley. The Indians that appeared before the committee as witnesses declared that all they were asking was an opportunity to go out into the world and make their own way, pay their ovfn por- tion of taxes, etc., discharge their duties as citizens. What is your judgment on that proposition ? Mr. Coe. I rather think they overestimated their ability to do those things. Mr. Hensley. You stated yesterday that there were some 30 or 40 Indians off of the reservation working at different places, in the copper mines and in railroad construction work ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir; I did. Mr. Hensley. How do they appear to get along ? 610 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBBIOK DEPABTMENT. Mr. CoE. They always eventually have come back to the reser- vation. Mr. Hensley. They come back to visit their people, do they not ? Mr. CoE. It has been my observation that they will go off and work for awhile, perhaps some of them as much as a year at a time, and then they are yerj likely to come back to the reservation and spend that much time or longer on the reservation. Mr. Hensley. They bring funds with them ? Mr. CoE. Very little; they hve it all up practically as they earn it. Mr. Hensley. At anj^ rate, they bring back as much money as they took off the reservation ? Mr. CoE. I believe those Indians who have remained on the res- ervation have made more material progress than those workiag around the mines. Mr. Hensley. Their condition in coming back without any funds is not any different from a great many white people; there are a great many white people who do not accumulate and lay up money ? Mr. CoE. Certainly. Mr. Hensley. What are their habits with reference to drinking and the use of intoxicants ? Mr. CoE. They use them to some extent. Mr. Hensley. When they go off the reservation ? Mr. Coe. As I understand it; yes, sir. When off the reservation at the mines they are 100 miles away and I only depend on reports sent to me, but I understand that they have been arrested and put in jail a great many times for drinking. Mr. Hanna. Are there any Territorial laws in Arizona as to the selling of liquors to Indians off the reservation ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Those are Territorial laws outside of the United States laws ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir; in addition to the Federal statutes. Mr. Sloan. You say that a number of them have been arrested for drinking. Are those usually the same ones or does it extend generally throughout the entire number, if you know ? Mr. Coe. Well, of course, I presume that they are a great deal like the white people; some of them are habitual drinkers while some of them do not drink. Mr. Sloan. Are you able to say which are in the majority ? Mr. Coe. Well, as to those getting drunk and being arrested off the reservation, I suppose they are in the minority. I would judge they were. Mr. Sloan. In speaking of those who leave the reservation do you refer distinctly either to the Pimas or Apaches or both ? Mr. Coe. I am referring distinctly to the Mohave Apaches now. Mr. Sloan. How about the Pimas in respect to going away? Mr. Coe. The Pimas do not go off the reservation to any great extent to work. Mr. Sloan. What material progress are they making? Mr. Coe. Very great progress. Mr. Sloan. They are practically occupying the same territory they have for a great many years ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 611 Mr. Sloan. They have not been moving about without permanent homes hke the Monave Apaches ? Mr. CoE. I think they have not been moving except as they desire to move to different parts of the reservation on their own accord or from one end of the reservation to another. Mr. Sloan. Would not the permanency of home they have had give them an advantage over the Mohave Apaches who have not had that permanency ? Mr. CoE. It should. Mr. Sloan. Does the advancement and improvement which you recognize among the Mohave Apache who remain on the lands on the McDowell reservation come within that principle? Mr. CoE. Not exactly. The opportunities and the enticements for spending their earnings are much less on the reservation than around the mining camps where the people they are brought into association with are uaually of a very low class. Mr. Sloan. You stated that those of tlie Mohave Apaches who remained at home and did not go out to work made more material progress. Is that on the same principle that the Pimas remain at home and recognize the permanency of home and improvements in the wa)'' of agriculture or otherwise ? Mr. CoE. I mean my last answer to cover that. Mr. Sloan. You mean that none of the Mohave Apaches are of the same type, home settlers and workers, as the Pimas ? Mr. CoE. Not to the same extent, no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are they to the extent that they have had the oppor- tunity in comparison with the Pimas ? Mr. CoE. I am not prepared to give very definite information on that point because the Mohave Apaches did at one time, as I under- stand, had a right on the San Carlos Reservation. I am not informed at all as to the conditions over there, as to what opportunities they may have had on that reservation for home making. A great many Mohave Apaches are on the vSan Carlos Reservation to-day. Mr. Sloan. Are you familiar with the conditions up there ? Mr. CoE. I am not at all. Mr. Sloan. Have you selected those letters to which you referred before the lunch hour 1 Mr. CoE. If vou will just state what the question was ? Mr. Sloan. 1 think my first question was that you have made assurances to the Mohave Indians that on their removal to the Salt River Reservation tney would be provided for and taken care of on irrigated land and be furnished water, and their homes on the McDowell Reservation would be reserved for them; and you said that that was correct, and I asked if you had authority to make such assurance, if it was in writing, and you said it was, and I asked you to produce those letters or give us the authority. Mr. CoE. I have a letter, a copy of which was introduced at the morning session, which is from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, and I will read just one section, which says: Assure the tribe that they will be allowed to retain the use of the present Camp McDowell Reservation for pasturage, etc., as long as they may find it necessary to do so. Mr. Sloan. What is the date of that letter ? Mr. CoE. April 30, 1910. 612 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEBIOB DBPABTMENT. Mr. Sloan. By whom is it signed ? Mr. CoE. By Mr. Valentine, the Commissioner of Indian Affairs. Mr. Sloan. Have you any other correspondence with reference to that matter ? Mr. CoE. I have a copy of a letter to the chief of the McDowell Indians, where practically the same language is used. Mr. Sloan. To whom was that addressed ? Mr. CoE. To Chief Yuma Frank and others of the McDowell tribe. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Meritt, do you know whether that is already in the record, the letter to Yuma Frank ? Mr. Meritt. It may be in the memorial ? Mr. Sloan. Have you any other letters ? Mr. CoE. Those, I believe, are all I recall at this time. Mr. Sloan. Were the assurances that you made to the McDowell Indians with reference to their removal to the Salt Kiver Reserva- tion made from these two letters you have mentioned ? Mr. Cob. Based on those two letters and the conversations I have had mth other officials of the Indian Service. Mr. Sloan. Whom have you had conference with in reference to this matter ? Mr. CoE. I talked the matter over with Supt. Goodman, who was formerl}^ in charge of the McDowell Reservation. Mr. Sloan. Superintendent who ? Mr. CoE. Sunt. Goodman, of the Phoenix Indian School. Mr. Sloax. Wliat directions did he give you in reference to the removal of the McDowell Indians ? Mr. CoE. He did not give me any directions, but he told me that he did not think it was the intention of the Indian Office to attempt to take away the McDowell Reservation from those Indians, and that they would be allowed to retain it. Mr. wSloan. Did lie tell you wliat to do in order to induce them to take allotments on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did he tell you what you could assure them in the way of water riglits ? Mr. CoE. I do not know that he told me exactly what I could assure them in the way of water rights. We discussed that ques- tion, and tliought we could get authority to have this land listed witJi the Water Users' Association that was intended for them. Mr. Sloan. You understood from him that it would be necessary to make a contract with tlie Water Users' Association ^ Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you so inform the Indians? Mr. (Joe. I do not think I informed them as to the exact procedure we would have to take. I informed them that it was the intention of tlie office to give them these lands with water. Mr. Sloan. Did you inform them that it would be necessary to make contracts with the water users' association for that purpose? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I do not think I informed them. Mr. George. Did you know at that time it would have to be done ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of a petition having been signed by Pima Indians and directed to the Indian Office objecting to the removal expendittjUes in the interior department. 613 of the McDowell Indians to that reservation and giving them a por- tion of it ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. No such communication passed through your hands officiaUy ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. You were not ofRcially notified 1 Mr. CoE. No, sir; not officially or otherwise. Mr. George. There was one phrase in that letter which you quoted which reads : Assure the tribe that they will be allowed to retain the use of the present Camp McDowell Reservation for pasturage, etc., as long as they may find it necessary to do so. What does that "etc." mean? Mr. CoE. I assume that it means just as they have been using it, all the necessary uses they want to put the reservation to. Mr. George. They have been using it mainly for agriculture ? Mr. CoE. For agriculture and grazing and timber. Mr. George. Suppose that they do not get the same water privi- leges, then what becomes of agriculture at Camp McDowell ? Mr. CoE. If they did not get the water privileges there could not be much agriculture carried on there. Mr. George. Do you think there would be the same water privi- leges — be a continuance of the same water privileges 1 Mr. C'oE. As long as the Indians continue to do the farming there; yes, sir. Mr. George. But if they went down to Salt Kiver would they be likely to do the same farming ? Mr. CoE. Those who went down to the Salt Eiver would have a better place to farm, and I do not think they would have any desire to farm at McDowell. Mr. George. And consequently the water privileges would lapse 1 Mr. C'OE. They would be transferred to the lands below. Mr. George. And the whole character of the land there would change, the water privileges would lapse ? Mr. Coe. It would become principally grazing land. Mr. George. Did you explain that to them, that disadvantage to the Indians ? Mr. Coe. I think I read the letter in its entirety to the Indians. Mr. George. Did you explain what that would mean, that the land would change in character, from agricultural land to pasture land? Mr. Coe. No ; I do not think I explained that specifically. Mr. George. You had it clearly in mind yourself ? Mr. Coe. I had in mind that if the Indians took the farmmg lands down below that they would not want this land for anything but pas- turage. I think they understood that also. The Chairman. Mr. Coe, the McDowell Indians, as I understand it, are not getting any help from the Government now except through the agency school — the education of their children ? Mr. Coe. That and the issuance of agricultural implements. The Chairman. Which they pay for in labor ? Mr. Coe. Yes, sir. 614 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. They pay full value for them in labor, do they not ? Mr. CoE. They pay full value, but, of course, the Indian Office is able to furnish those things to them considerably cheaper than they could buy them elsewhere. The Chairman. And they furnish the labor considerably cheaper than white labor could be obtained in paying for them? Mr. CoE. No ; I think at about the same rate. The Chairman. Can you hire a white man and team there for $1.25 a day? Mr. CoE. They get S2.50 when paying for the issues, with a team. The Chairman. How much without a team? Mr. CoE. $1.25. The Chairman. Is that price invariable-; do they get that in every instance? Mr. CoE. In the payment for supplies that have been issued; yes, sir. The Chairman. The privilege of buying at favorable prices and {laying in labor and the privilege of having their children go to the ndian school is all the Government is doing for them now ? Mr. CoE. Just at present; yes, sir. The Chairman. Is not that such a trifling thing that if they can make a living with that help that they could make a living without it ? Mr. CoE. They might be able to do so. The Chairman. When you furnish them with seed wheat or any other kind of seed grown on the school farm, they pay for it ? Mr. C OE. What seed has been furnished they have not paid for. The Chairman. In labor or in any other way ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. To what extent have they been furnished seed? Mr. CoE. Not to a very great extent. The Chairman. That would not be a very material matter? Mr. CoE. Not particularly so. The Chairman. From some source I got the idea that they paid for their seed wheat at the rate of $1.50 a bushel. That is a mistake? Mr. CoE. I have furnished no seed wheat. We have raised no seed wheat on the Government farm. The Chairman. Do you know what the conditions were in that regard before you took charge? Mr. CoE. No, sir; not personally. I understand there had been some seed wheat distributed, but I do not know in what manner it was. The Chairman. You do not know whether, as a matter of fact, if they got wheat they paid for it in labor or in any other way ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. You spoke about the location of a dam at the con- fluence of the Verde and Salt Rivers. If that dam were erected, how much of the McDowell Valley would it inundate ? Mr. CoE. I am not prejiared to say. The Chairman. What is the nature of the declivity through the McDowell Reservation in the Verde River Valley — -that is, is the descent gradual or swift and steep ? Mr. CoE. The Verde River through the reservation is a very swift stream, so I imagine there is quite a descent between the upper end of the reservation and the lower end, but just how much I can not say. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 615 Mr. George. Do you mean whether the banks are very high ? The Chairman. No; I mean the dechvity generally. Whether if a dam was erected at the place you described it would cover the irrigable portion of the Verde Valley with water. Mr. CoE. I am unable to say. The Chairman. You stated, I think, yesterday that you were pretty familiar with the opinion rendered by Judge Kent ? Mr. CoE. Fairly so. The Chairman. Of course, then, you are quite aware that if they moved or rather if they accepted allotments at Salt Kiver they would lose their water rights at McDowell ? Mr. CoE. Those of them that took land on the Salt River Reserva- tion, I understand, would have their water transferred from where it is now being used to such land as they might take. The Chairman. And if they did accept allotments at Salt River, then all the water rights would lapse at McDowell under that opinion of the court ? Mr. CoE. I think so; yes, sir. The Chairman. Are they going to accept irrigable allotments at Salt River and retain irrigable allotments at McDowell ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. All they would retain at McDowell would be grazing rights ? Mr. CoE. They would retain all the land they have at McDowell. The Chairman. For grazing and similar purposes ? Mr. CoE. For any other purpose it could be put to. The Chairman. Without water 1 Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Might you not as well have answered my question in the affirmative as the way you have answered it? It means the same thing. They could not farm in the Verde Valley without irri- gation ? Mr. CoE. Ordinarily they can not, but occasionally there may be a crop grown without irrigation. The Chairman. A crop planted and matured without irrigation ? Mr. CoE. It has been done; yes, sir. The Chairman. It is exceedingly rare. How often has it been done? Mr. CoE. I do not know how often. The Chairman. Do you know that it was ever done ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. From jour own knowledge ? Mr. CoE. No; but the owners have told me so. The Chairman. You have heard of it ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Would you think it wise to plant a crop and take a chance without any water right ? Mr. CoE. We planted a hay crop on the farm last year and har- vested a fairly good crop this season without water. The Chairman. Now, to my question: Would you advise plantmg crops, knowing that they would have no irrigation ? Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. You yourself would not do it, nor would you think it wise for anybody to do it ? 616 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. CoE. No, sir. The Chairman. It would be like betting, with the odds very heavily against you ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. It has been suggested that I ask you what you mean by planting hay ? Mr. CoE. We planted the seed and raised a hay crop. The Chairman. I suspected that that was what you meant. Mr. IIanna. "VThat kind of hay? Mr. CoE. Barley. The Chairman. I think that is all. Mr. Hanna. Just one question. You spoke a little while ago about these Indians doing certain labor on the McDowell Reservation and getting tools, etc. That labor was actually done for themselves, the fixing up of ditches, building dams, and that sort of thing? Mr. CoE. That was done on the Government farm. Mr. Hanna. And that is the way they paid for the tools ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Is an Indian's labor as good as a white man's labor? Ml-. CoE. It is not regarded as good as a white man's, but it is re- garded as better than Mexican labor; it comes in between the two. The Chairman. Take the case of Charles Dickens. He testified that he was a track boss in a mine and earned $.3.50 a day. Was not that as good pay as a white man gets ? Mr. CoE. I think so; but Charles Dickens is only one Indian out of 21 3 who is receiving any such wages. The Chairman. Out of how many who went to the mines ? Mr. CoE. I think about 20 or 25. The Chairman. In the matter of ditch repairing or building he is not nearly as efficient as Thomas Surrama? Mr. CoE. No, sir; I presume not. The Chairman. Those who were here, four of them, the two Dick- ens, Surrama, and 1 uma Frank, the chief, exhibited their hands to the committee, and I tliink I am safe in saying that men working on a section, handling a shovel all the time, have no harder or thicker callouses than t]iey iuul on tlieir hands, and they told us that their hands were not exceptional; that all the Indians on tlie reservation able to work had hands like theirs. Is that probably true? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. That is on account of the great labor they per- form in keeping up the ditches and temporarj' dams. The (.-HAiKJMAN. Do tJiey do a good deal of other work with the shovel and lioe ? Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. That is necessary in any irrigation district. The Chairman. Wlierein is their inelllciency — lack of skill, lack of strength, or lack of will? Mr. C^oE. I should say that it was a lack of skill, and perhaps to a certain extent, a lack oi will. The Chairman. The testimony we had was to the effect that they were very anxious to work, some of them walking 20 or 25 miles a day to get work. Does that accord with your information? Mr. Cue. I never heard of anyone walking that distance to get work. The Chairman, j^^s to the other part of the question, that they were anxious and willing to work, does that accord with your judg- ment ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 617 Mr. CoE. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How are they with reference to accepting sugges- tions or obeying instructions as to better methods of work ? Mr. CoE. I think they are very willing to do so. The Chairman. I think, Mr. Coe, that is all. Mr. Coe. I thank you. TESTIMONY OF lOUIS C. HILI. (The witness was sworn by the chairman.) The Chairman. Please state your full name. Mr. Hill. Louis C. Hill. The Chairman. Where do you reside ? Mr. Hill. Phoenix, Ariz. The Chairman. How long has that been your home ? Mr. Hill. About four years. The Chairman. What is your occupation ? Mr. Hill. Supervising engineer in the United States Eeclamation Service, in charge of the southern district. The Chairman. Who is your immediate superior ? Mr. Hill. In engineering matters, the chief engineer, Mr. A. P. Davis, and in administrative matters, Mr. F. H. Newell. The Chairman. The director of the service ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long have you been connected with the Eeclamation Service ? Mr. Hill. Since June, 1903. The Chairman. In the same capacity ? Mr. Hill. No. I started in as an engineer. The Chairman. How long since have you been supervising engi- neer? Mr. Hill. I think it was in the next spruag, of 1904. The Chairman. How long have you lived altogether in Arizona ? Mr. Hill. Since August, 1903. The Chairman. Prior to that where was your home 1 Mr. Hill. Colorado. The Chairman. How long have you been in engineering work of this kind ? Mr. Hill. In this particular class of work ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Hill. For any practical purpose, only since the summer of 1903. I had been in engineering work of other classes before that. The Chairman. Are you familiar with the concern down there known as the Water Users' Association, or something like that ? Mr. Hill. V Yes; I deal with them regularly. The Chairman. What is the correct name of the association ? Mr. Hill. The Salt River Valley Water Users' Association. The Chairman. Have you ever been in its employ ? Mr. Hill. No. The Chairman. Have you done any work for them at all ? Mr. Hill. Perhaps before attempting to answer the question if I could make an explanation it would be easier to answer then. The Salt River Valley Association is an association of farmers The Chairman (interposing). I was going to come to that. 98240— No. 15—11 3 . 618 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hill. I mean that I could not be an employee. The Chairman. You might, if you please, state what that associ- ation is. Mr. Hill. The Salt River Valley Water Users' Association is an association whose stockliolders are owners of land in the Salt River Valley wliich land, it is expected, will be irrigated from the works constructed or acquired by the United States. Each share of stock represents an acre of land. No one can vote in this association for more than 160 shares of stock. He may hold more land than that, but he can not vote any more stock than that. They have a rather peculiar relation with the United States at the present time, because none of them have applied for water rights, as the project is not open; but they have made a contract with the United States, agreeing to reimburse the United States for whatever expenses are incurred in the construction of this project, and they practically pledge themselves to do that. But there is yet no cer- tainty that any individual tract of land, any single specific tract of land, ^\ill be included in this project. In fact, more land is signed up in the project than can be irrigated. But people did not know at that tim.e just what land could be irrigated. Some of them have signed up land that can not be irrigated at the present time, because it is so far to the west, it is bound to be included in that land which can not be irrigated. The Chairman. Is it a voluntary association, or is it an incorporated association ? Mr. Hill. It is an incorporated association. The Chairman. Under tlie laws of the Territory? Mr. Hill. Under the laws of Arizona; yes. The Chairman. It has a president ? Mr. Hill. It has a president, and officers of the usual kind. The Chairman. Has it any capital stock ? Mr. Hill. Yes; it ha^ capital stock. The exact amount of that I do not remember. The Chairman. Is this capital stock represented by certificates other than as you have stated^ one certificate for each acre of land? Mr. Hill. I do not think so, although I do not know the exact form. The Chairman. Have the incorporators paid any money into the treasury of the concern ? Mr. Hill. Yes. They are assessed yearly to carry on the expenses of the association. They have a president whom, for a long time, they paid $2,000 a year. They had a legal adviser whom they paid $2,000 a year, and a secretary. To show you it is a real corporation, they have recently assessed themselves for the purpose of building a building and buying land; and the building alone cost nearly $40,000. We occupy it at the present time, and so do thej^ to save expense. The Chairman. Wliere is it — in Phoenix ? Mr. Hill. Yes; and a very nice appearing building. They have also assessed themselves, after having first entered into a contract with the United States to do it, this year, for over $400,000, to build a power plant. Next year they have to put up about $400,000 more to build some additional power plants along the canal systems. The Chairman. What canals would that include ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 619 Mr. Hill. They built one between the Arizona Canal and the lower canal. On the south side of the river there is a drop from one of the canals into another one, and they put a plant in there. On the other side there is another natural drop, and they put a plant in there. The Chairman. All those would be pumping stations ? Mr. Hill. The plants are hydroelectric, and that power is trans- mitted and is used for pumping and for other purposes. We have a power station, which I had forgotten to mention, up at Roosevelt, and that power is used both for pumping purposes and to sell. The surplus power, under the law, can be disposed of; and, in fact, we are selling some of it now. The Chairman. To whom ? Mr. Hill. To people in the valley. The Water Users' Association members themselves are not to-day buying anything. But the project itself is credited with whatever returns we get. The Chairman. Have they any rights in any living water or run- ning water ? Mr. Hill. The people in the valley have the right to practically all the water in the valley that runs in the streams. The Chairman. The members of this association ? Mr. Hill. Yes. There is one small community which is not a member of the association, and they have certain water rights ; prac- tically all the water rights have been adjudicated, but exclusive of their rights and the rights of those Indians at McDowell, all the people, except those I nave mentioned, are members of the Water Users' Association. The Chairman. That will be all except the McDowell Indians and who else? Mr. Hill. This httle community wliich I have just mentioned, which does not happen to show on this map [indicating], but it is not very far from Phoenix. There is a community there which has not joined the association. The Chairman. How many persons, if you can tell us, are there in the water users' association ? Mr. Hill. That is a very hard thing to even guess. I could figure it in a moment. The Chairman. Approximately ? It is not necessary to take any time to figure it. Mr. Hill. Approximately, there are about 4,000 people. The Chairman. That would represent how many acres of land « Mr. Hill. About 220,000 acres. The Chairman. And you say there are 4,000 members ? Mr. Hill. Yes, about. The Chairman. That would be 55 acres for each one 1 Mr. Hill. That is about the average. That is the way I figured it. I happened to remember how many they averaged. The Chairman. And of that, at this time, about how much ha'- water privileges ? Mr. Hill. We have not finished our construction work, but there are now being served, under the Water Users' Association, about 115,000 acres in actual cultivation, raising crops. The Chairman. I suppose you have a fixed form of agreement or contract with them, between them and the Government? 620 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Hill. These people that are now being served are being served under a temporary water contract. They will have a formal water right issued to them when the project is opened. Then they will come in and make their formal application for a water right, and no man can make formal application for water rights for more than 160 acres. That is the law. The Chairman. What is the nature of the Government's security for repayment of this expenditure ? Mr. Hill. Practically it is almost the same thing as a mortgage on the land. They pledge their land. The Chairman. The general rule that is followed in reclamation work ? Mr. Hill. Yes. We have one of the finest securities in the world. We can shut the water off, and if we do that we can get the money. The Chairman. You can do more than that. As you said, you could practically foreclose. Mr. Hill. Yes; but the quickest way to get to a man in an irri- gated country is, if you have control of the water supply, to shut the gates. The Chairman. Except, of course, in case of his insolvency. If he is broke, you could not squeeze him into paying when he did not have the ability to pay. Mr. Hill. That is true; but the water users themselves, in addi- tion to their agreement, would hold themselves responsible. The Chairman. Is the contract between the Government and the individual landholder, or between the Government and the corpora- tion? Mr. Hill. The water right is issued by the United States Govern- ment to the individuals themselves. In that country the water is appurtenant to the land. The man can not sell his land without selling his water right with it. It has not been the practice alto- gether, but it is now, and under the United States reclamation laws it is absolutely appurtenant. They have not so many laws there as they have laws made by court decisions, and water is now appurtenant to the land, and the right to its use is limited by the beneficial and continuous use. The Chairman. The decision in the case of Hurley v. Abbott is probably the widest statement of the law in the Territory. . Mr. Hill. Yes, it is. The Chairman. And it recognizes the doctrine of prior rights ? Mr. Hill. Yes. The Chairman. To the extent of reasonably necessary right ? Mr. Hill. Yes. The Chairman. And not beyond that ? Mr. Hill. Not beyond that. The Chairman. I'he water users' association itself, or the per- sons composing it, have a very considerable amount of land more than they can ever hope to get water to irrigate ? Mr. Hill. The total number of them that is signed up The Chairman (interposing). Is the unirrigated land of any par- ticular value ? Mr. Hill. Almost none, except as there may be a possibility some time of getting water from underground sources, that is not yet known. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 621 The Chairman. As it is now, does it afford any pasturage ? Mr. Hill. Practically none. The Chairman. What is the character of it ? Mr. Hill. It is practically a desert. The Chairman. Is it sand ? Mr. Hill. No. The Chairman. What is it ? Mr. Hill. One never would think of it as a desert, according to the old idea. If you look across the country that is called a desert, it looks like a rather gritty soil, a fine soil. It looks rich enough, and it will have small trees and bushes growing all over it, and cacti of various kinds. It is not a bare plain of sand, but it has trees and bushes on it, such as I have suggested. The Chairman. Is there any decomposed vegetable matter in it ? Mr. Hill. Very little decomposed vegetable matter in the land in Arizona, because to a great extent no vegetation grows there on account of the small rainfall. These trees are very small and may last for years and years, so there is not any sudden growth. Along the Colorado River it is aUuvial bottom. Along the Salt River VaUey, at the point you indicated, it was level. The highest point that receives any water is about 1,275 feet, and runs down from there to about 1,000 feet. The Chairman. Have vou yourself any interest of any kind in the Salt River? Mr. Hill. Yes ; I have a lot in Phoenix. The Chairman. Is it irrigable ? Mr. Hill. It is irrigable, but it is not irrigated. The Chairman. You are, then, a stockholder? Mr. Hill. I believe I own five shares. It is a 5-acre lot. And I believe I own five shares in the water users' association. I bought the land expecting to build a house on it. Mr. George. Did you buy it at a bargain ? Mr. Hill. Oh, no ; I bought the lot in order to build a house on it. Mr. George. It was a pure speculation 1 Mr. Hill. No; but it has gone up since then, although I did not buy it for a bargain. The Chairman. What is the land worth that is not irrigated and not liable to be irrigated very soon ? Mr. Hill. The desert land not liable to be irrigated, I should say, Was not worth anything. The Chairman. And the nonirrigated land that has some chance for irrigation, what is it worth ? Mr. Hill. That has naturally a speculative value. If it is non- irrigated land to-day, that is within the boundaries of the water users' association district, and is reasonably certain to obtain water, it is worth anywhere from S50 to $250 an acre. The $50 an acre land is that land which can be used only for alfalfa and things of that kind. The higher-priced land is that land which is expected to be used for oranges. The Chairman. Have you seen corn grown there ? Mr. Hill. Yes. The Chairman. How much is the yield per acre ? Mr. Hill. Not very high. The Chairman. The elevation is a little too great ? 622 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hill. I do not think it is that; but it is extremely hot. The varieties that ha^^e been planted there do not seem to give the returns that other things will, and very little corn is planted. Alfalfa is the greatest crop. Alfalfa will bring 4 to 5 tons to the acre and up to as high as 12 tons. The Chairman. Of what quality ? Mr. Hill. Very excellent. The Chairman. How about sand burs 1 IVIr. Hill. That is not what gets into alfalfa down there. The trouble with alfalfa, if they have any trouble, is Johnson grass. And if they irrigate it very much in the hot summer they get water grass there and weeds that are brought in from the ditches. That is why the people are anxious to get primped water. Alfalfa seed is raised in the summer without irrigation. The last irrigation is in June, and then they will not irrigate again until Sep- tember, and the returns from the feed raised then will bring good prices to the farmer, greater than if they tried to raise a hay crop in the summer. The Chairman. The alfalfa roots would almost go down to the moisture, as you described it ? Mr. Hill. It would in some places. In others, as you go away from the river, the depth to water becomes too great. The Chairman. How long mil a crop of alfalfa, once set, continue to grow? Mr. Hill. I do not believe that anybody knows, because when it begins to deteriorate after six or seven or eight years, or ten years, depending on how they handle it, it keeps getting a little worse each year, and many times it would pay them to plow it up and put it into something else and then go back to alfalfa again. The Chairman. From year to year, is it the same plant that grows ? Mr. Hill. Oh, yes; it is a perennial. The Chairman. It is not an annual ? Mr. Hill. No; it is a perennial, and one of the best forage crops I know of. It will bring $75 to $80 an acre gross at present prices, and sometimes it will go more than that. It is of a great value in this desert country, because it puts into the ground what this desert needs — nitrogen. WliUe all this desert country is rich in mineral salts of various kinds, it is very low in humus, and this alfalfa is very excellent for that reason. It takes nitrogen from the atmosphere and transfers it through the roots. I heard you ask Mr. Coe a question recently about the borings made at McDowell and the probable effect on the reservation of the building of a dam there. There is a water-supply paper that was pubhshed about 1902 or 1903, I think it is Water-Supply Paper No. 72 or 73, by Mr. A. P. Davis. Mr. George. Is he in the Government service ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; he is Chief Engineer of the Reclamation Service. That paper describes the borings that were made and the investiga- tions made for a dam down near the mouth of the Verde River. As I recollect at that time it was not an Indian reservation. I know when I went to the Territory, after these borings were made, they were then purchasing the land from the Mexicans living there. Mr. George. When was that? BXPBNDirUBBS IN THE INTEEIOR DEPABTMENT. 623 Mr. Hill. In 1903. I think any detailed information you may want in regard to that can be found in that paper. It was published g, long while ago and it is much more certam to' be correct than anythmg I could now state. The Chairman. Is that the Senate or House document ? Mr. Hill. No, sir; it is a water-supply paper of the Geological Survey which tells all about this investigation for the dam and where the reservoir would go, and it gives full information. I do not think there is any of us here who would know anything about it from our present knowledge, except Mr. Davis, who is in town. This would be much better than he could now state from memory. The actual dam site we expect to utilize is farther up the river [indicating on map], and so it would not in any way interfere with the McDowell Reservation. Mr. George. The one you expect to use? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. We have now built on the Salt River, above the junction of the Salt and Verde Rivers, a dam known as the Roose- velt Dam, which stores the flood waters of the Salt River. I heard a question asked in regard to the character of water in Salt River. The name Salt River is a good name, and in a dry summer the river is quite salty. The salt in the river is due to the fact that about 70 miles above the dam, or 100 miles above this point [indicating on map] Mr. George. That is above the confluence with the Verde ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; in a creek called Carrizo there is a Uttle stream of brine from some springs, so that just above that point there is no salt in the-Salt River, and just below that there is a material quantity. As there is a faxed quantity flowing into Salt River from these springs, we know that the percentage of salt in the river varies inversely as the amount of water in the Salt River. So in the winter time when there is flood water the river is as fresh as any stream there. In the dry summer period it is quite salty. Since we built the reservoir the water accumulates there during the floods and the water which comes from the reservoir contains but the average percentage of salt, so that I can not myself detect, from tasting the water below the dam, that there is any salt in it. I do not know to-day that there is any measiu-able difference in the character of the water from the Verde or from the Salt River. I think they are probably equally good. That was not true before, but it is true now. Mr. Hensley. There is nothing to affect vegetation ? Mr. Hill. No, sir. In years past when the river was extremely low, in 1902, 1903, and 1904, they used this water in the river and put it on the crops, the most valuable crops down in this part of the valley, which consist of citrus fruit, and in the begmning it was detrimental. The quantity of water in the river was low and the salt content so high as to do a certain amount of damage. There has been no damage done since. There have been quite a good many investigations made by the agricultural college to find out the cause, and they found that the low water in the river carried a great deal of alkah. They did not have enough water to properly irrigate when the salt content was high. The building of this dam on the Salt River has entirely altered the situation, and these lands, both Indian and white people lands, are almost certain now to have a reasonable supply of water. We have 624 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. the history of both the Salt and Verde Rivers for something like 20 years, and during that time, assuming that we had the number of acres in cultivation at the beginning that we expect to have when the project is opened, there would be four years, one following another, when there would not have been sufficient water for all the lands. They would have had almost aU they wanted for the first two of the four years, the next year they would have had only about 55 per cent or 60 per cent of what they needed for the best cultivation, and for the other year and part of the following year they would have had less water than needed, but very good fair service. It happens that the time when the reservoir would have been dry during this period was usually the time of the year when the water was not neeaed for raising grain crops. If you were trying to raise citrus fruits or crops that require water all the year round, you would have to be very careful, but we consider that is good enough service. So it is well worth expanding the project to take in that much land. There have been some questions asked as to the water rights on the red and blue lands, and judging from the questions asked I think there must be a misunderstanding as to what it means. The judge had those people come in and give evidence to show which lands were first irrigated, so that all blue lands do not have the same water rights. Some of those lands, for example, have water rights quite old for that country, the oldest appropriation in point of time has the first right to the use of water. It means if the river contains a certain quantity at the time when it is comparatively low a certain number of acres irrigated up to that time can get water. When it is a little higher some more can come in until finally they take in all the blue lands. The red lands have no preference over the white lands; it simply gives them a preferential right to apply for water rights in the reservoir. They have no preference in the narural flow. They have in a sense abandoned that by nonuse. If you will read the decision you will find that the difference between the white and red lands is simply that one was irrigated at some time, but not with the five-year period before the case opened, and the other had never been irrigated, but that neither were given any share of the natural flow. That may make it clearer. The blue lands have not all the same water rights. In fact, the last blue land irrigated previous to the opening of the case, has just a little bit better right than that land which has since been irrigated for the first time. Under the Salt River project some of the white people had water rights that were good without the reservoir so far as the quantitjr of water was concerned, but, as I understand, they were all willing to go in and help pay for this reservoir for the direct benefit it would be to them in having that water made better and more certain, and the indirect benefit of living in a valley where there were a large number of acres of irrigated lands, and the charge made for constructing the project to each person in that valley for each acre was just the same, regardless of whether or not a man had a first-class water right. But if at any time the reservoir is absolutely empty then a man who has no water right in the river does not get any river water — he can not take it out of the river. Mr. George. The reservoir parties have that advantage with respect to water? Mr. Hill. As long as there is any water in the reservoir, they all share alike. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOR DEPARTMENT. 625 The Chairman. As I understand it, how would that arrangement affect the right to the water of the Verde River ? Mr. Hill. Just the same. The Salt and Verde Rivers come together. The Chairman. T thought you were telling us about the right to the water in the reservoir ? Mr. Hill. The rights to water in the river are determined by this decree and the right to water in the reservoir is common to all of them, so long as there is any water in the reservoir. , The Chairman. WTien there is none in the reservoir then the water pl'lvileges would be confined entirely to the water furnished by the ^rde River ? if Mr. Hill. And the Salt River. The Chairman. There would be none in the Salt River nor in the reservoir ? Mr. Hill. The Salt River does not go dry. The Chairman. Ever ? Mr. Hill. Never known to go dry. The Chairman. Our information is to the contrary. Are you pretty sure ? Mr. Hill. We have the history and everything that is of record. I do not know what rumor might have been. Sometimes the river goes dry below where we divert. We have a dam here [indicating] and there may be no water below it for some 5 miles, but still there might be water up here [indicating] diverted. The Chairman. What is the extent of the flow in Salt River, apart from the reservoir, when it is very dry ? Mr. Hill. About 100 second-feet. The Chairman. Can you compare it to the flow of the Verde ? Mr. Hill. Sometimes it is a little less and sometimes it is a little more. You see, one runs nearly north and rises in a somewhat lower country than the other. The Salt River runs in an easterly direc- tion and rises in a high country. The Chairman. You mean westerly ? Mr. Hill. I mean it starts The Chairman (interposing). And the other in a southerly direc- tion? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. You can not tell as to any one year. One year you will find the low-water flow wiU be greater in the Salt River and the next the Verde River will deliver the greater quantity. They are very erratic. The Chairman. Which one ? Mr. Hill. Both of them. The rainfall is extremely erratic. I received a message yesterday that they had just had a rainfall in this part [indicating] of 5 inches, whereas the average rainfall of the year IS only 7 inches. The average flow of the Salt is to that of the Verde as 10 is to 5. Mr. George. Just before the juncture ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; without counting the effect of the Roosevelt Dam. Mr. Hanna. The dam is above ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; about 40 miles. I never was on the McDowell Reservation, except right in here [indicating], so personally I do not know anything about it, but I do know something about the land in 626 EXPENDITUKES IN TMK J.JNiJSK.iua ujuj-AKXiviJiiN x. here [indicating] that they speak about transferring. That land appears to be of the same character as the lands the Indians are utilizing over here [indicating] and the whites over here [indicating] and here [indicating]. The land in that part of Arizona is very much the same. We have an enormously greater acreage than we have water supply. Under the canal system in the Salt Kiver Valley to-day there are something hke 20,000 acres more than we can irrigate. The Chairman. You have that much land that geographically covdd be irrigated if you had the water ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. We notified some people who own some land that is not on this part of the map — the western end of the project — that it was not at the present time the intention of the Government to cross what they call New River, a little dry stream, and irrigate any land to the west, because we had more land under the canals geographically located than we could irrigate. Mr. George. At points east ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. This project is much larger than you may realize. All of the land that is irrigated in southern California, exclu- sive of the Imperial Valley, is only about 250,000 acres, and there will be about 220,000 acres here. Mr. George. In this one project ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Mr. George. From the Roosevelt Dam? Mr. Hill. From the Roosevelt Dam and the natural flow in the Verde River. If we buiid a reservoir farther up, 50 or 60 miles above this point Mr. George (interposing). The juncture? Mr. Hill. Of the Salt and Verde; then we will be able to add somewhat to our irrigated area, but not much more, as we have extended it as far as we could. Mr. Hanna. Speaking of this land which the McDowell Indians are to take, would they have a larger water supply ? Mr. Hill. They have the same assurance of water supply that the white people have under the project, with the exception of those who have the oldest water rights, and they have only an advantage when the reservoir is dry. Their location is such as to make diversion difficult, I understand. Although I have not been there, I know the character of the country generally and the great difficulty of main- taining a head in a stream without a dam. We have that kind of work on Colorado River and on the Salt River above. I also was unfortunate to get a telegram that we had lost a dam of that same character below. Mr. Hanna. What kind of a dam ? Mr. Hill. Brush and sand and rock. The stream runs very rapidly after these sudden floods. We have built a dam on the river Mr. Hanna (interposing) . How high ? Mr. Hill. Twenty feet, and it cost about $750,000. Mr. Hanna. Of stone ? Mr. Hill. A concrete dam. If you are very fortunately located it may not cost you very much a year to maintain it. If you do not happen to be fortunately lo- cated it may cost you a great deal more. One brush and rock dam costs us about $10,000 a year. We have been more or less fortunate. bxpenditub.es in the interior department. 627 I have talked the matter over with Mr. Coe and Mr. Code because it would have to come into this reservation, and it seemed it would be the most feasible way, provided the land could be obtained and the Indians could be transferred, and provided it did not interfere with the other Indians over here [indicating]. This represents the Salt River Reservation [indicating], and it is quite a good ways from the proposed location of the McDowell Indians to where the Pima Indians live. There is quite a little high ground that naturally separates the Indians that are there from the Indians that would be brought down from McDowell. Mr. George. You recognize there might be some hostihty ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. We do not know. They are different tribes, and it may be just as well to have them kept apart. It is a natural separation because the ground is hardly irrigable between and very little chance of any travel from one to the other, except as they might go dov/n to Phoenix or Scottsdale. One advantage we thought of is that if the Indians get any money for their crops they have to haul them over here [indicating] to either Scottsdale, a very small place, or Phoenix or Tempe. They would • not have to haul them nearly so far to get to the markets. Mr. Hanna. Has it ever come to your knowledge in any way that they would ultimately sell a part of the Salt River Reservation and reimburse these parties ? Mr. Hill. No, sir; I have never heard anything about it because there is so much more land under the project that could be irrigated than we have water to irrigate that there was no particular advantage, and land in that country is not worth anything unless watered. This land above the Arizona Canal is beautifully located. They call it Paradise Valley and white settlers have gone right in there, having an idea Mr. Hensley (interposing) . Have they drilled for water ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir; and I think some few have gotten a little, but it is so far to water that it is not considered very economical to attempt to pump it. Mr. Hanna. Tell us something about the irrigation by the Pimas ? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. A good many years ago — I do not know how many — the Pima Indians, partly from the records and from all the information that we could get, must have had quite a reasonable water supply, and the Gila River itself seemed to have run for a good many years at least within reasonable banks, but now, ever since I have been there, eight years, I can notice a very great difference down near the reservation. Away up here, 150 miles, at Solomons- ville, and there are a great many small towns. For farming purposes they had taken the water as far back as 30 years ago, I think, because the town looked old when I first went there, until the flow was prac- tically nothing below their lands. A few years ago the Indian Service was trying to find some way of getting water to these Indians and trying to see if there was not some way by which the reclamation law could be used to help them. I personally at that time understood very Uttle about it, because Mr. Davis was the supervising engineer and had charge, but I heard some of the conversations and I know they were trying to find sone way by which they could get the law to apply and to bring it under the project. They did not reahze how much land could be irrigated. 628 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. They had not had time to study it; it was in the beginning, but when they found there was not any way, we had a power plant reserved on the Salt River, about 20 miles above where the Verde joins the Salt, that was going to be turned over by an arrangement between the Secretary and Indian Service and used for a power plant to generate power by electricity and bring it down here and supple- ment the supply from the Gila River by means of pumps. It was investigated. I made an original rough estimate and afterwards it was investigated quite carefully and, although the cost was not going to be expensive, it was found that the operation and maintenance was going to make it pretty expensive. So negotiations were entered into by the Secretary with the water users' association of the Salt River project to see if this power could be transferred to the Indian Service to be used for supplying these Indians with power to run pumps up to 1,000 horsepower. An agreement was finally entered into, and I believe a copy of that agreement can be obtained. The contract is between the water users' association, the Secretary of the Interior, and the Indian Service, a sort of three-cornered affair, stating under what terms the power would be furnished, and, roughly speaking, it amounts to this: The lands to be charged their proportionate share of the cost of the power development on the Salt River; that if the Indians had 10,000 acres and the whites 200,000 acres, the Indians would pay one- twentieth of the cost of the work necessary to develop the power, and the cost to them of operation afterwards would be only the absolute _ cost of operation, whatever that might be. That wouldrbe much less than they could get it in any other way. It costs them three-tentlis of a cent per kilowatt hour, and at 1^ to 2^ cents per kilowatt hour the white people are glad to get it. So, you see, they get a very cheap rate. Aftet that was done plans were generally drawn up and information obtained by Mr. Code and his assistants, and we made an in\estiga- tion omselves as to building a canal down here [indicating repre- sented bv this line, and perhaps to extend a little further and take in more land heie [indicating] — very nice land indeed. This heading [indicating] is down below the level of the river, and so the water will be taken in here [indicating] and furnished to lands that can be served under it. During the time there is no water in the river we will pump the watei and furnish it to the lands and the two canals are so located that they can be served from the flood water. Mr. George. Getting the power where ? Mr. Hii.L. From Roosevelt, some 75 miles away. That brings it down from a j^oint almost due north. The cost of the work after you enter the Indian leservation is chargeable against the Indians. There was an appropriation of $540,000 to carry on the work and it has been done under that appropriation. I do not remember the details of the appropriation. When we first started in they were afraid that the water would not be good on the other side of the river; there is some pretty bad water in that district, but the water turned out to be as good as could be expected. The water in the river below is salty. I do not mean it is brine. There is a farm up here [indicating] of 2,000 or 3,000 acres irrigated the same way, one of the best alfalfa farms in the country and a great deal of the land has been in for 10 or 12 years; I know for EXPBNDITITEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 629 8 years from personal knowledge. The white people appreciate it. I have heard them say that instead of taking the water from the river all the time, they would be very glad to donate whatever amount of land was necessary to get the wells on their land so that they could have well water. The Indians at fii-st were not interested and objected, did not like it, but after the water got pretty low in the river they saw it would be advantageous to get the water to their lands in order to save their crops, and since then they have been getting as much as they could. They are living along the canal and this water has to be brought down and pumped into that canal. There is not as much land under culti- vation as there will be next year. We have to analyze the wells as we go along and they are still within the safe limit. Taken in con- junction with the flood waters you can use much worse water success- fully because the flood water does not carry much salt. The low water carries a good deal — I mean the salt and alkalies. The Chairman. The subterranean flow is pretty strongly impreg- nated with alkali or salt or both? Mr. Hill. It is. I have a few analyses and it is about 100 parts of solid to 100,000 parts. That is supposed to be safe water for irrigating purposes. The Chairman. What are the solids ? Mr. Hill. Carbonates and sulphate of lime and soda. In mairy weUs after the first few weeks or months the water wUl improve. It has been standing sometimes a very long time and it will get better. We have one well here [indicating] that pumps a very large amount of water, one of the best flowing wells. At flrst you could hardly drink that water, it tasted like sea water, but we kept pumping it, and the last time I was there the men were drinking it and I tasted it and I asked the general foreman if it had improved and he said a great deal. Mr. Hanna. How deep are the wells ? Mr. Hill. From 150 to 250 feet deep, but the water only stands about 20 to 30 feet below the surface. Mr. George. What kind of pumps ? Mr. Hill. Centrifugal pumps. I will show you some photographs of the station on the Indian Keservation. Mr. George. What kind of a pump is that ? Mr. Hill. Something like this [exhibiting photograph]. There [exhibiting photograph] is one of the pumping stations. This [indi- cating] represents the water from a single pump. This [indicating] is quite a good sized stream. The pump is not any bigger around than that [indicating]. It is run by a 50-horsepower motor. The little Indian children have become very much interested and they make httle pumping stations like that [indicating] there. They are very much interested. The Chairman. As a matter of fact, then, the salt has not mter- fered in any way with the growth of vegetation where used ? Mr. Hill. On the Indian reservation there is a well on the other side of the river that they run with steam, and if you do not put enough water on you may have your salt accumulate. If we use what is called the furrow method and let a little water run down there then it evaporates and leaves all the salts, and by and by it gets so strong it might do harm. The Chairman. How is that avoided, by using a greater amount of water ? 630 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hill. You run it over the whole surface of the land and then the water goes right down through it and wastes the salts through it. That is how, in the Desert of Sahara, they use water with fire to ten times as much salt in it as we do, by using that method. The Chairman. What is the cost of installing one of these pumps? Mr. Hill. A pumping station like that, with all connections, ready to run, would cost aoout $10,000 and irrigate 1,000 acres of land. The Chairman. One pump would irrigate 1,000 acres? Mr. Hill. Approximately. You understand, the output from a well is an uncertain quantity and it may vary a little. One well may be better than another well. But that would be about the average. The Chairman. Does the character of the water affect the machinery ? Mr. Hill. No; not that I know of. I know of one plant that has been in this same character of water about 12 years. The Chairman. How many acres do the 10 wells supply? Mr. Hill. Ten wells will, when finished, supply probably about 8,000 acres with safety, and we want to put in a couple more, so that they will raise 10,000 with safety. The Chairman. How long have the 10 wells been operating? Mr. Hill. Not very long. We have not operated more than eight. The Chairman. How many acres were irrigated last year? ]\Ir. Hill. Not many. The Indians were not ready. The Chairman. How many are being irrigated this year? Mr. Hill. Well, they will not start until fall to put in their crops again. The Chairman. When you say 8,000 acres, you are speaking scien- tifically — what you hope for, rather than what you have done? Mr. Hill. Yes. I mean we have produced the water and the Indians will have to do the rest. The Chairman. What is your knowledge as to the continuity of the supply ? Mr. Hill. Do you mean how long the water would last without going dry ? The Chairman. How long would it last ? Would it be of indefinite duration '. Mr. Hill. Yes. The Chairman. What is the source ? Mr. Hill. The source is the Gila River. This is a pretty flat valley. The Chairman. How wide? Mr. Hill. It is not limited. It is right in here [indicating on the map]. This is almost level, from here [indicating] up as much as 15 miles. On this side [indicating] it rises, and on this side [indicating] it rises a little wav from the river, and then is very nearly flat. I am tracing that level ground away up here [indicating], and these are miles. So you can see there is little change in the character of the surface. Every time there is a flood comes down the Gila River, it fills the sand full of water and saturates it. All our information obtained from operating wells for years shows that you do not pull the water out faster than it comes in. We have operated a single well and irrigated all the land that could be irrigated under it, for a year; and there is no change in the water. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. 631 The Chairman. Theoretically, however, it will make a very de- cided difference when 10 or more wells are being constantly pumped from it, as compared with the pumping of only one well ? Mr. Hill. That may be. The Chairman. All coming from the same reservoir? Mr. Hill. It is not, strictly speaking, a reservoir. This river drops about 6 feet in the mile, and if you sink a series of wells along here [indicating] parallel to the river, you will find that their surface slopes generally in about the same rate, and there is very little change until you come to a place where the rocks stop it, and it may back up a little. As you go away from the river, with the exception of one place down there, the water falls and the wells get deeper and deeper. So far as our information is concerned, and practical trials in all other parts of the valley, 10 wells sunk over a long distance as these are, something like 7^ miles, will not perceptibly aft'ect the water supply when pumping about 30 to 35 feet. The pumps are so located we can pull it down to 60 feet if we need to, and we have power enough. The Chairman. How deep is the sand in which this water is ? Mr. Hill. The sand and gravel is 100 to 250 and sometimes 350 feet deep. The Chairman. What is the diameter of the wells ? Mr. Hill. On this reservation we have used a single 16-inch well, perhaps 200 feet deep. Then we cut slots in it all the way to the top. Then on the outside of this well we have sunk a caisson, like a big barrel, about 9 feet in diameter, and put it down so deep that a pump which is quite a little larger then the one we use could no longer handle the water, and then we had to stop. I would say that there was no more certain supply of water avail- able in the country than a pumping system. We expect to irrigate for the whites from another source. The water for the whites comes from above and from the lands to the east, where a great big desert runs across, about 40,000 acres altogether to be irrigated by pumping from wells. The Chairman. By the pumping system ? Mr. Hill. Yes; by pumping. The Chairman. Now, you spoke of one of the wells to the north of the GUa, 10 or 15 miles, I judge, by the point you indicated, that is in use for the whites. Mr. Hill. Oh, to-day there is a private corporation which has four wells of their own, and we have put in and are now operating three or four wells up there, and we have got almost ready to pump from four more. The Chairman., For the white settlers ? Mr. Hill. Yes; for the white settlers, and they are all very anxious. The Chairman. Is there any difference in the plan adopted where you put in a well for the Indians than for the white settlers ? Mr. Hill. Yes. It happens there is a difference m these that are located here [indicating], but the reason is purely an engineering reason. The character of the ground along here [indicating] is such that when you go down about 10 or 20 feet you are m gravel; that is, water-bearing gravel. So that you sink this great big well m that ground, and there is plenty of water comes into it. But take it m 632 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMBNT. some places like this; although we may hit water at 25 feet, we may have to go 90 feet before we get to it. The Chairman. I did not refer to differences that were due to the formation of the ground or the physical environments, but rather differences based on race. Mr. Hill. On what ? The Chairman. Based on race differences. Mr. Hill. Oh, no. Absolutely we use the same kind of pump. The Chairman. The only difference is that of physical environment ? Mr. Hill. Purely. By way of example, we put three deep wells, and connect them together with the same kind of caisson, although we do not get the same water from the caisson. Down there that caisson is valuable, because we might come into first-class water. The Chairman. How is the first cost, comparatively? Mr. Hill. The first costs are about the same. The Chairman. And the expenditure to the Government, how is that paid back ? Mr. Hill. There is an appropriation made for the Indians, this appropriation of $540,000. The Chairman. That is, for the original wells ? Mr. Hill. For the original work. The Chairman. But as to the reimbursement ? Mr. Hill. I have not any idea. The Chairman. You have not anything to do with that ? Mr. Hill. No. The Chairman. Are all those expenditures reimbursable ? Mr. Hill. They are reimbursable to the Reclamation Service from this appropriation; and that is as far as my interest went. But you could find out from the bill. I could not quote it now. Mr. George. What is the annual cost of these pumps? Mr. Hill. It has been about $5 or $6 an acre to the people owniDg them. Mr. George. You mean it costs the white people $5 or $6 an acre? Mr. Hill. It is costing people not in the project now about $1.25 an acre-foot, or from $4 to $5 an acre for the year. The Chairman. Under the circumstances you have described, the struggle for water in that country is exceedingly keen ? Mr. Hill. It is. The Chairman. They are about as hot after water as they are here after gold ? Mr. Hill. Yes. I would like to call attention to one thing: If you remember, I spoke of the Pima Indians practically having their water taken away from them 30 years ago ; but the Salt River Indians have received entirely different treatment. They were given, by mutual consent, 500 inches of water all the time, and it was added to and made about 700 inches recently, during this trial, with no objection from anybody. It seems to me a rather remarkable thing for the Indians to be treated on the square by a lot of white people. The Chairman. I would like, in conclusion, to have you explain for the committee the meaning of the phrase "miner's inches." Mr. Hill. It is a term given to a continuous flow of water the value of which is not constant. In Arizona 40 miner's inches correspond to 1 cubic foot a second. In California 50 miner's inches correspond to 1 cubic foot a second. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 633 In the old days they used to measure water by having it go through an opening 1 inch square under a certain head. The head varied in different parts of the country. In Cahfornia at one time they had three or four different heads, three or four different quantities; but it has now been determined legally that a miner's inch in Arizona is on the basis of 40 miner's inches to 1 cubic foot a second, and in California it is 50 miner's inches to 1 cubic foot a second. I use Arizona inches, as we are speaking about Arizona. The Chairman. Any further questions? Mr. Sloan. Will the Pima Indians be provided with irrigable land ? Mr. Hill. The Pima Indians have a reservation. This [indicating] represents it. They have got a large reservation away down here. This land all in here [indicating] is very fine land. Part of it is irrigated by the Pimas now. But this land from about there [indi- catmg] has never been irrigated ; at least there is no indication it ever has. But it is as fine a body of land as I know of, and it is the expecta- tion to have that land irrigated; all of this land clear up to here [indicating] on the north side. Then, on the south side, there is some land irrigated right around here now [indicating] by the Pimas, and that is the only source right there [indicating]. Down here [indicating] there are some Indians; I can't remember •the names of their villages — Santa Rosa, I believe, is one of them — and it is expected to put in some wells on this side and help them out. They get some little water now out of the river when there is any, and when we put wells there we will be able to help them out. So these Indians down here [indicating] would be readily served. I think they can get a pretty good service. They have now about 2,500 or 3,000 acres in good actual cultivation in that one bunch I am speaking of, and they can get a very much greater acreage ; they can get up to about 5 acres per individual. Mr. Sloan. In this Gila River — has it a quicksand bottom ? Mr. Hill. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Is the Salt River the same ? Mr. Hill. The Salt River has lots of sand and gravel. Mr. Sloan. How about the Verde River ? Mr. Hill. Much like it, but more quicksand. The Gila River is flatter, has more sand, and is shifting. I do not know of any sand in that river at all that is of any good to be used for concrete. It is so fine it is no good. We built a lot of works and we had to haul our sand from the gulches. -Mr. Sloan. You have been building dams down through that country ? Mr. Hill. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Was not there some testimony given or did not some question come up as to the cost of a dam up there on the Verde River, in this McDowell Reservation? Have you any idea as to what it would cost to put one in ? Mr. Hill. I never have been up there and I could only guess from the amount of water that comes down the river. I imagine it must be a wide stream up there. I know from the testimony given, as you heard it, that the banks are so that there would be no very good abutments. Now, those dams cost a great deal of money. I built a dam at the upper end of Salt River which only raised the river? feet, 98240— No. 15—11 i 634 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. and the dam with an intake on one side cost us over $100,000; that is, the actual cost. Mr. Sloan. Would that be your estimate as to the cost of the dam down there ? Mr. Hill. No. I have never seen this place. I only gave that as an illustration. It is hard to tell what it would cost, when I do not know the country, when I do not know how deep the river is, and how wide, and other necessary information on which to base an estimate. It would cost a good many dollars to build a permanent dam in there. I have recently received a telegram stating we had lost a brush and rock dam like those the Indians use, and it was a low dam, too. Sup- Eose it cost to maintain that dam up there as much as it cost us down ere to maintain our dam, it would then be a very heavy charge for a small acreage. I believe they said 1,300 acres, if I remember rightly. The total charge would be just the same if they were irrigating five or six times as much. The charge per acre would be very heavy. That is why I know it did not look very feasible, originally, in view of the small amount of land to be benefited by it, requiring the expenditure of so large an amount of money to build a permanent work, and there might be a great deal easier way of taking care of the Indians and giving them more satisfactory service. I do not know what those Indians' actual water right is. These particular Indians have been there only a little while. I do not know whether there was irrigation befoi-e that so that they would have a ver)^ old right, or not. The Chairman. You might get that from the opinion of Judge Kent. Mr. Hill. I don't remember as he said how old it was. Mr. Sloan. Have you ever investigated or given much thought to the question of moving these Indians from this McDowell Agency down to the other position ? Mr. Hill. No; not any more than to talk it over as an engineering proposition. I asked a while ago that if they were going to come down, I wished it would be hurried up and we would be informed, so we would know where to put a head gate in to serve them. Several years ago I had a talk with Mr. Code about the possibility of serving them, and he talked about trying to serve them with a pump if it became necessary to do it on account of the great expense of putting up a dam. He said the river was erratic, and from what I learned then and what I heard here given by Mr. Coe the river must be much like the upper end of Salt River. There we built a canal from this dam, of which I spoke a moment ago, that cost $100,000. We bought a farm which was to be sub- merged by the reservoir. This farm had on it trees about 3 feet through and 4 feet through, cotton wood, and some of those were the finest trees I have ever seen, and it was very fine land. Before we got this dam built, and while we were building it, and after we had the canal built, the river decided to change, and turned and went right toward us and took the whole farm away. We had this canal built Eretty high, too. I had to go back and cut a halt mile of canal and uOd three tunnels to get around it. Apparently it just tried to show us what it could do. That is one of the difficulties of that kind of work — that is, to hold your banks in this soft material. These rapid rivers, in times of flood, when some little obstruction will strike them, will turn and cut out your canal and frequently part of your irrigable land. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DBPAETMENT. 635 Mr. Sloan. In your judgment, would these Indians be better off where they are, or down farther ? Mr. Hill. I have never seen their reservation, but I would say they would be better off on the lower reservation. Leaving out the question of their being Indians, if they were white people I would say, without any question at all, that they would be much better oft if they were moved where there would be better water service, better markets, and at least as good land. However, the Indians hate to move. Take the Indians living on the San Carlos Reserva- tion, they hate to move; and I do not know of any place I would sooner move away from than that. The Chairman. When there is a cofferdam constructed, the ques- tion of washouts is permanently settled 'i Mr. Hill. No; you may still lose it. I am only talking now from the information I have gotten here from listening. I do not know the ground myself, except it is a valley; that its banks are practically vertical to the river. You might lose your canal. The Chairman. I am not speaking of the Verde River particu- larly. The question of washouts below the Roosevelt Dam is now elimiuated ? Mr. Hill. Oh, yes. The Chairman. If on the Verde River a strategic location for a dam could be found, similar to that of the Roosevelt Dam, the question of washouts would be permanently settled there, too ? Mr. Hill. To a certain extent that is true, but it happens that this location is about 50 or 60 miles The Chairman (interposing) . What location do you refer to ? Mr. Hill. What we call the Horseshoe Reservoir for storage. The Chairman. Is there not a point about 10 miles north of the north line of the McDowell Reservation which offers a most excellent strategic position for the location of a dam ? Mr. Hill. I was speaking of the location above our diversion dam. The Chairman. Were you speaking of the Verde or the Salt River ? Mr. Hill. I was speaking of about 30 or 40 miles up the Verde, north of the diversion dam on the Salt River, which would be about the same place you meant when you spoke of a point 10 miles north of the north line of the McDowell Reservation. It is what we call the Horseshoe Dam. The Chairman. I do not quite understand it would be the same, since the Verde comes from the north and the Salt River from the east. Mr. Hill. But you misunderstand. I mean this dam is on the Verde. Mr. George. Where is the diversion dam of which you speak ? Mr. Hill. On Salt River, below the mouth of the Verde River. Another storage dam is proposed on the Verde River some 30 or 40 miles, more or less, above the present diversion dam on the Salt River. Mr. Sloan. How far would that be from the north end ? Mr. Hill. About 10 or 12 miles. That would tend to prevent any danger of washouts if that were built. The Chairman. A dam there would be sufficient to hold in storage the flood waters and let them escape under control ? Mr. Hill. The idea there is to build a dam not so large as the Roosevelt dam, but to act as a regulator; that is, hold the water m 636 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPAETMENT. the big Salt Eiver Keservoir and use the water from this other one, so that the flood that came down would be stored in the smaller reservoir and the water be drawn from it. But they have floods about once in so often, anywhere from 5 to 10 years, when that would not be sufficient. Mr. Sloan. They would go farther down for the big floods ? Mr. Hill. That would depend on the amount of water in the res- ervoir when they came. Mr. Sloan. Do you know the amount of land that would be sub- merged and the amount of storage space the dam would give at that point? Mr. Hill. That dam would contain about 250,000 to 300,000 acre- feet. Mr. Sloan. What is the capacity of the Salt River reservoir? Mr. Hill. One million three hundred thousand acre-feet. Mr. Sloan. That would be about an average of a fifth of the capacity of the other ? Mr. Hill. Yes. An average run-off on Salt River is only about 800,000 acre-feet. The Chairman. But it would be quite easy, would it not, to obvi- ate any danger of difficulty in that way by letting the water run out of the reservoir in that gradual way before the anticipated flood came? Mr. Hill. It would be if one could have any idea when these floods would come. The Chairman. Do they come in a periodic sort of way ? Mr. Hill. No. The Chairman. In any particular season ? Mr. Hill. No. The worst flood came in the month of February, and the next worst flood came in the month of November. Usually the greatest floods come after a comparatively long period of drouth. But the next to the worst flood we ever had came after a long period of wet weather. You can not guess at it. I can say this: They would not come, and you could not expect them, in May or June. That is about all I could say. They are liable to come in any year and in any month except those two and there is no previous warning and no way to find out about it. Day before yesterday we had the greatest rain- fall that has ever been heard of in that valley, in the Salt River Val- ley, and there was only a little bit of water fell above the dam. Mr. Sloan. In southern California the rains come about a certain time of the year. Mr. Hill." Yes. Mr. Sloan. Is not that true in Arizona ? Mr. Hill. The rains in Arizona come m winter and summer. In California they b.ave one period, and in Arizona we have rains that usually begin the last part of December, continuing during January, February, and a small part of March. Then they will begin again usually in July and j^ou will have rains in July and August. Then we do not have rains again until December. But, as I said, next to the largest flood we ever had came in NoA^ember. Mr. Sloan. You have two rainy seasons ? Mr. Hill. Yes. It is a better arrangement than the CaUfornia rainy season, but we do not have as much water. That is one of the reasons why tliese Indians once in a while can raise a crop. The rains come in a better season of the year. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 637 Mr. Sloan. Is all the available water supply practically in use ? Mr. Hill. No; it is not. It is an expensive thing in Arizona to develop water. These rivers are so erratic and so irregular. There is quite a large amount of land located on the Colorado River that can be irrigated. There are really a good many Indians that could be served and many whites. Mr. Sloan. That is below the Grand Canyon ? Mr. Hill. Yes; below the Grand Canyon. Mr. Sloan. Around about Flagstaff there is some timber there, and they get more rain there, do they not ? Mr. Hill. Yes; as you get in a higher altitude you always get more rain. The Chairman. Are there any further questions ? Mr. Hanna. Mr. Hill, how many horsepower are developed by the Roosevelt Dam ? Mr. Hill. We have to-day water wheels and dynamos enough to develop about .3,000 kilowatts. That would be about 4,000 horse- power. We have contracts out for two units of a thousand kilowatts each in addition, and are just about to let another one for 2,000 kilowatts, making a total of about 7,000 kilowatts. Mr. Hanna. What power do you furnish to the Gila River Reser- vation ? Mr. Hill. Our contract calls for a maximum of 1,000 horsepower dehvered to them. Mr. Hanna. How much in actual delivery ? Mr. Hill. Sometimes it is only 50, sometimes almost nothing, and sometimes it is 400 or 500. Mr. Hanna. Does it reach as high as 500 horsepower ? Mr. Hill. No; just now we are not constructing any, so I do not think it would reach that high. I do not beheve they are using as the maximum to-dav for irrigation over 300 or 400 horsepower. Mr. Hanna. Does your power transmission line extend beyond the Gila River at Mason ? Mr. Hill. No; it extends to a point about there [indicating]; then runs up to this point [indicating] ; then we expect to bring it back to the reservation at that point [indicating]. Mr. Hanna. How many wells are in operation under the power furnished ? Mr. Hill. You mean how many are ready to use ? Mr. Hanna. For the Gila Reservation ? Mr. Hill. There are eight ready to use now. Mr. Hanna. How many acres of land are irrigated by those wells j Mr. Hill. I could not tell you how many are actually irrigated directly from those wells, because they are mixed with some land that is irrigated every year by the Santan Canal. We divert it here [indi- cating]; take it down and dump it into the canal at that point [indicating]. Then they have a canal right down through here [indicating], from which they irrigate. When there is no water m the river then we pump to those lands that need it. You see these wells were just finished in June, so that there are lots of them that get no water, because they are not yet ready to receive it. Mr. Hanna. Are any of the Indians cultivating land with the pump water? Mr. Hill. Yes. 638 EXPBNDITTJEES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. Mr. Hanna. How long have you been serving them ? Mr. Hill. Some of them used it year before last, and quite a num- ber have been using it during season before last and this last season. Mr. Hanna. What is the greatest length of time the Indians have used it ? Mr. Hill. It would not be over two seasons. Mr. Hanna. I notice in some of the reports that it is consideued advisable to maintain the canals in operation for the use of flood waters and water to wash the lands that are used or irrigated from the walls. Mr. Hill. That is what we consider advisable in any district where you have pump water. Mr. Hanna. That is for the purpose of washing out some of the alkah? Mr. Hill. Yes; that is it; and adding to the land the fertiKzing silt that is carried in the river. It is extremely dirty water. Mr. Hanna. What payments have been made by the reclamation service for the Indian work as far as it has piogresaed? Mr. Hill. I can not tell you the exact amount of money, but they have paid for everything relating to the construction up to date about two hundred and some odd thousand dollars. In addition to that there has been transferred to the reclamation fund as part of the con- tribution toward the cost of power, $100,000. Mr. Hanna. That is, the transfer of one sum of $100,000 appro- priated for Indian irrigation to the Reclamation Service? Mr. Hill. There was a total appropriation made that was not to exceed $540,000; $300,000 was made available, we will say, in one year; $100,000 of that was paid into the reclamation fund as part payment toward their proportionate share of the cost of the power that was generated. The other money has been paid for construc- tion purposes. There is money left yet out of the appropriation. Mr. Hanna. Has there been any moneys used from the Indian Service aside and other than that which was a part of the $540,000? Mr. Hill. Not that I know of. There may have been some very small amounts used for some specific purpose, but none that I know of. It would be so small as to be something insignificant. Thei agent may have hired men out of the funds to do some work. It might interest you to loiow that practically all of the work done on the reservation and in the building of all those canals andi everything else was done with Indians. We used the Indians there to do it and paid them the same wages we would to white men. We did not have over 10 or 12 white men on the whole job. The black- smith was an Indian. Mr. Hanna. Were those Indians working under your direction ? Mt. PIill. Yes, general direction. Mr. Hanna. Were they as satisfactory as white laborers ? Mr. Hill. Quite so. The foreman told me his Indian blacksmith was the most satisfactory blacksmith he ever had. Indian labor is about as variable as white labor — some good and some not so good But the man that ran the grading camp was a man who had been a contractor and who was hired by us to operate this camp — we owned' the stock — and he told me that they were as satisfactory teamsters as he ever had, and he put two Indians in charge of the corral. We have now one grading crew of Indians, and the subforeman is an Indian. We liked them very well, especially the Pimas. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOR DEPAETMENT. 639 Mr. Hanna. Did you employ Apache Indians as laborers in your Roosevelt dam construction ? Mr. Hill. Yes, during the whole job, both as road men and as laborers of various kinds, and for subforemen. Mr. Hanna. And you found them to be as satisfactory as other labor? Mr. Hill. When we started, we paid the white men $1.50 a day and board. I am comparing them on the rate of wages. We paid the Indians $1.50 a day without board, and as tiiey became experienced gradually we raised their pay, as they got better and stronger. When they came to us they had not enough to eat to be strong enough to do much. We kept raising their pay until finally we paid the In- dians and the white men exactly the same wages. Mr. Hanna. Were the Indians satisfactory in attending to their work ? Mr. Hill. They were. Mr. George. By white men, whom do you mean ? Mr. Hill. Anything that is not a Mexican. Mr. George. What do you call a Mexican ? Mr. Hill. Well, Mexican, Greaser, Dago, or anj^thing else. Mr. George. Of what nationality were the white men ? Mr. Hill. They were Americans of the poorest. When you get an American laborer in the Southwest, usually they are the poorest kind you can get, so poor they can not do anything else or they would not bie laborers. Almost every other nationality you can think of works better down there. As showing the Indians are pretty good people, and have got pretty good heads, one time we had a flood and we could not get any provisions to our camp, and the Indians had a hard time getting any- thing to do and they got awfully poor and hungry. They came down and wanted to have a pow-wow. One of them said, "We used to own all this land around here, and then Gen. Crook came down and took it all away. We think we ought to have a better right to work here than the Mexican and hobo whites." I told him I thought so too. Mr. Hanna. Did you have any trouble with the United States Indian agent in regard to your Apache laborers ? Mr. Hill. Yes. The original agent who was there just before we came had not proved to be very honest, and both that agent and the people that ran the store had gotten into trouble, and they had replaced that agent by a temporary one, who was an old man, a great stickler for red tape restrictions. Somewhere he had found some regulations and he said the Indians had to go down and work their land every so often. If any one of you has ever been on the San Carlos Reservation you can not see why any Indian would work that land down there, because they do not have any water, only on part of it. But he sent an order that these Indians were to come down there at certain times. I tried to explain that we needed the Indians in the work and could not spare them, that he would break up the camp, but I could get nothing whatever out of him until I wired here to Washington, and then instructions were issued that whenever those Indians had an opportunity to work for us, they should be permitted to go there and stay. A new agent was sent out there. 640 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Hanna. Was that arbitrary action of the agent a benefit or a detriment to the Indians ? Mr. Hill. A great detriment. One Indian, Grover Cleveland, told me he was going down to the agency and leave his daughter at a school, and he was going to give his land away to another Indian because he could make more money working on the road in a month than he could in a whole year on his farm. That is true. They only had about two acres and a very precarious water supply, and the Indian could not hope to get from his land during the course of a year any more money than he could earn in one month by working. Once they took a man and one or two of his sons away, but the Indian Service did not stand for it, and gave the old agent orders to change his order at once. We have had no trouble since. Mr. Hanna. Are the Apaches performing labor generally about that country now ? Mr. Hill. Yes. The Apache Indian is hired, and he Hkes to travel around much more than the Pima Indian. The Apache is something of a Nomad. The Pima Ukes to live around the same place. The Apache takes his wife and children with him and lives in a wickiup. His house is wherever he happens to be. They will go into a place and even if they are going to stay there only a day or two, they will have as comfortable a place as if they were going to stay a year, while the Pima does not like to do that. The Apache, so far as I nave had anything to do with him, is a quicker man; he receives instruc- tions and appreciates them much quicker than the other Indians there. Mr. Hanna. Are there any lands or advantages or opportunities upon the San Carlos Reservation where the Apache Indian may de- velop a home? Mr. Hill. I do not think so, because the Gila River washed out nearly all the good land there was down in that reservation where they have water. There is very little opportunity for a San Carlos Apache — you understand there is a White Mountain Apache, but the San Carlos Apache has very little chance. In fact, we had nearly all of them working for us out there, a large majority of the men. I had in one single camp 125 Apache Indians, and we had no trouble with them, never had any trouble with them. The only trouble we ever had with the Apache Indians was that these Mexicans and others would give them stuff that they called whisky, and it makes the Indian crazy. They will drink it. They used to take away from them the drink made out of corn, something like a weak beer. But this stuff is brought to them; it really is not whisky. They will drink it and it will make them just crazy drunk. An Indian when he gets drunk seems to be wild to ^ht. White men do the same thing with this so-called whisky. They get wild. Mr. Hanna. Is he worse than a Dutchman or an Irishman under the same circumstances? Mr. Hill. Yes; I think so. I do not know but what this same stuff would affect anybody, but the Indian does not seem to be able to take as much of it before he is affected. When we first went down there, they had a saloon near where our camp was located. If you happened to see a man go into that saloon, in half an hour from then you would begin to hear the furniture smash ■ EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 641 I know one time we wanted to buy a whisky barrel. They had been there something hke six or eight months, and only had one barrel. Mr. Hanna. In the drinking among the Apaches, was it limited to a few who were usually drunk or did it extend generally? Mr. Hill. No, I do not think so. When this whisky would be smuggled in, there would be perhaps one man or perhaps two men out of the camp that would not take it. I do not mean that they went away to town and got drunk, but if it was brought in to them they did not seem to be able to resist it. Mr. Hanna. Do you laiow how many Indians there are on the Gila River Reservation ? Mr. Hill. No, only by general, report. I have heard that there were about 4,000. Mr. Hanna. Do you know anything beyond the immediate vicin- ity of your irrigation project about the different bands that are located along the Gila River? Mr. Hill. I know from observation and from information received in various ways that there is a band of Indians do\\Ti west of the line of this railroad — Maricopa Indians — and some located at another place down there, and that both get water from the river. Mr. Hanna. What is the character of water they get? Mr. Hill. It is seepage water, and during the lowest season that water is not apt to be so veiy good ; it is apt to be pretty well impreg- nated with salts. Mr. Hanna. They are dependent, however, upon seepage and flood waters entirely ? Mr. Hill. Seepage water would be a pretty good sort. Mr. Hanna. Do you know what quantity of land they cultivate or irrigate in that way ? Mr. Hill. No ; I do not know personally. Mr. Hanna. Do you know whether the supply of water is sufficient for their lands ? Mr. Hill. They have altogether enough water, which, if properly handled, would take care of about 3,500 acres of land. But I do not know how much they actually irrigate. Mr. Hanna. Do you know if any attempt has been made to provide them with the proper management of it ? Mr. Hill. I do not know. Mr. Hanna. Is there any plan to extend the power transmission line and erect wells for the benefit of those people ? Mr. Hill. Not those Indians; notliing has been suggested. For example, here [indicating] is where you would have to cross the river, and some of them are located down below here [indicating], quite a long distance away, so it has not been suggested by anybody that it would be advisable to take power down there, as even during the lowest water there is some water comes up there — quite a little water, in fact, at one place— about 1,200 inches at one place. Mr. Hanna. Do you know of any htigation that involved the original water rights of these Pima Indians on the Gila River ? Mr. Hill. You mean anjr place along the Gila, or generally ? Mr. Hanna. Well, in their reservation. Mr. Hill. There was one I know of by hearsay, either before or just after I went there, when there was a certain matter adjudicated. That is the only one I know of. 642 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPAHTMEN'J'. Mr. Hanna. Do you know whether the Utigation you speak of was final? Mr. Hill. As final as a decree of the court would be. It was not appealed, I believe, beyond the highest court in the Territory. They won their case, whatever it was. Mr. Hanna. The Indians won their case? Mr. Hill. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Do you know, or have you learned, or can you tell from your observations on the Gila River, whether or not the water rights that have been appropriated to the east or southeast of the Wlute River Reservation were sufficient for the use of the Indians of the Gila Indian Reservation ? Mr. Hill. That would be impossible, of course, for anyone to say with certainty; but the people above are irrigating quite a large amount of land now, and that water, before they irrigated, went on down the river and would come to these Indians. From the infor- mation that I have received, there are indications that the Gila River Indians had at one time a great deal more land under culti- vation than they have to-day. Whether it was all adequately cul- tivated or not, of course no one can tell that. Mr. Hanna. Did you see any report of the Geological Survey made during either the years 1886 or 1896 that the Indians then had suffi- cient water if not diverted hj those using it above them? Mr. Hill. No; I have not seen it. If that were only based on a single 3'ear, that would not mean very much. I do not know what it is based on. It would have to be based on a number of years, because some years there would be enough water in the Salt River to irrigate 30,000 acres and the next year it is down so low that 15,000 acres could not be served. I do not tliink there is any question but wliat there is less water there in the Gila to-day than there was 30 years ago, when these people started to irrigate. Mr. Hanna. What is the reason for it ? Mr. Hill. Diversion above, at SafFord and other places. Mr. Hanna. Are you fanfihar with the country? Mr. Hill. I have been through that countr}^ on the railroad a number of times, and the railroad follows right up the valley of the Gila River. ilr. Hanna. Have you any idea, from your observation of the use of the water then', whether, if it were not so used, it would continue to flow in sufficient volume? Mr. Hill. They are irrigating up there perhaps 30,000 acres, and if that wiitor was back in the river you can imagine that a ver}' con- siderable amount of it would go on "down. Mr. Hanna. Wliat per cent of that would be lost by evaporation? Mr. Hill. The loss by evaporation might run anywhere from 1 per cent to 2 or 3 per cent a mile, more or less, depending on what it was running through. When it got into the canyon below where these wliite people are irrigating there would be a great many miles of that canyon where the loss would be practically nothing. Mr. Hanna. It would not be possible in a flow of 100 miles that 100 per cent of it would be lost by evaporation ? Mr. Hill. No; I do not think so. You understand, that remark wfil not apply to the smallest flow. I mean generally. There are times when the river practically is dry, anyhow. EXPBNDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 643 Mr. Hanna. Does the construction of ditches, and the retarding of flood waters and the storage by reservoir at the Roosevelt Dam, con- serve within the soil itself any quantity of water, or affect the country generally thereabouts ? Mr. Hill. The storage at Eoosevelt probably does not do much of that, because it is rocky. The rock all over that country is covered with very little dirt, except right in the bottom of the stream, and we have shut that off so that it does not get by us. In the ditches the losses by seepage in which muddy water has run for several years are comparatively small, and the water that runs out and gets in the soil is a detriment, because it goes down and comes up on somebody else's land, and therefore is a detriment. Mr. Hanna. The soil is not such that it retains the moisture ? Mr. Hill. No; not near enough to be of service. It goes down and comes up in some other place. That has been the history of all irrigating countries, and in time you have to drain some of the land to save it. Mr. Hanna. Does the alkaU water, the black of which you have spoken, north of the river, affect the caissons of the wells ? Mr. Hill. The black alkali was on the south side of the river, to the east of the school up at what is called Black Water. No one knows yet what the life of these caissons would be. The longest hfe that we know of, the longest time any wells have been in, are those of Dr. Chandler, and those have been in twelve years. So far as I know, they are just the same as they ever were. We do not know what condition they are in. But the water that comes out is just the same in quantity as before. I would think if it contained a certain amount of salt it would be bound to rust. Mr. Hanna. The use of the wells on the Gila River Reservation is hardly more than in an experimental state ? Mr. Hill. No; really they have hardly used them generally at all; they have not had the opportunity. Mr. Sloan. Yesterday, I beheve, a question was raised as to whether there was any question as to the title of the Salt River ■Reservation. Has the title to that ever been questioned? Mr. Hill. The Indians' title ? Mr. Sloan. The Government's title. Mr. Hill. Not that I know of. I never heard anything to the contrary. Nobody down there to whom I have spoken seems to question the Indians' right to that location. Nobody Uves on it but the Indians. Mr. Sloan. In the Salt River ? Mr. Hill. No. .Mr. Sloan. Has the question ever been raised as to the right of the Government to go in there and put other Indians on that reser- vation 1 Mr. Hill. I never heard any. Mr. Sloan. Do the Pima Indians have any rights to the stored waters of the Roosevelt Dam? Mr. Hill. Their rights— that is, those Pimas on the Gila— are not on the same watershed. The Gila River rises in the western part of New Mexico and is south of the Salt. I mean those lower Pimas on this reservation. The Pimas on the Salt River Reservation, whatever rights they have, are in the same river as the Salt River Reservoir, 644 EXPENDITUBES IN THE IHTEBIOB DIi)J:'ARTMl!iKT. and I do not Imow that any question has ever been raised by the white people. Mr. Hanna. You spoke of orange lands in that valley ? Mr. Hill. Yes. Mr. Hanna. Would those lands that have been set aside for the Mohave Apaches on the Salt River Reservation be of that character ? Mr. Hill. I have been interested to know that myself. It is a very hard thing, to determine in advance. It is dependent upon air drain- age. It is a pure question of frost. We do not have very cold weather; but sometimes, if the tempeiature drops to 22° above zero or gets down much below freezing, it is apt to Be dangerous to the trees. If they are located so that the land comes out like this [illustrating], and then drops down very quickly, the trees along in here [indicating] are apt to be safe. The lands which are planted to oranges in the Salt River Valley are not so well situated as to air drainage as these of the McDowell Indians, located on the edge of a bluil, and I had thought whether it would not be possible to use a part of that country along the edge of the bluff on which to plant oranges. I am not sure how successful it might be. No one could tell without having made measurements with instruments or put trees in and tried it. We had one of the men from the Agricultural Department down on the lower Pima Reservation. There is some higher land that he said he would hke to experiment with and see whether he could not raise oranges on it. I would not be at all surprised if along the edge of the mesa, on the Salt River Reservation — they are on a mesa, and then it drops down to a lower level ; in fact, 30 feet or more — that all the length of that whole distance it would not be a good orange country. No one, of course, could guarantee it. Mr. Hanna. Do you know whether or not those lands between the Arizona Canal and the Salt River are on the table-land ? Mr. Hill. Part of them are; yes. The Arizona Canal at that point must be about 50 to 60 feet above the river, and the land slopes from it to the river at a fairly good rate, and then when it gets near the edge of the river it breaks right down in a bluff. (Thereupon, at 4.50 o'clock p. m., the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Saturday, July 8, at 1.30 o'clock p. m.) No. 16 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF KEPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JULY 8, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OPFIOE 1811 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone .591. Meets on call.) J.\MES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERRIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, JE., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. , THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCabeon, Clerk. U EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditukes IN the Interior Department, House of Representatives, Saturday, July 8, 1911. The committee this day met, Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. There were present Representatives George, Hensley, and Hanna. There were also present Mrs. Helen Pierce Gray, Thomas Sloan, Esq., attorney at law, and E. B. Meritt, Esq., law clerk, Indian Bureau. TESTIMONY OF MR. WIIIIAM H. CODE, CHIEF INSPECTOR OF IRRIGATION. (The witness was duly sworn by the chairman.) ilr. Sloan. Mr. Code, will you give the reporter your name in f uU ? Mr. Code. William H. Code. Mr. Sloan. What is your official title or position at this time ? Mr. Code. Chief inspector of irrigation. Mr. Sloan. On behalf of what bureau ? Mr. Code. The Indian Service. Mr. Sloan. Are you connected with the Reclamation Service of the United States ? Mr. Code. In rather an imofficial capacity, or I might say a semi- official capacity, as consulting engineer on all matters pertaining to Indian reservations. Mr. Sloan. But your position is exclusively Indian matters ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And you only are in consultation with the Reclama- tion Bureau when your projects are together 1 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How long has that position been in existence ? Mr. Code. I have been with the Government for about mne years in that position. Mr. Sloan. Have you held the same title or position durmg all of that time ? • i_ i, Mr. Code. No, sir; the first term was Indian inspector, with the title, however, of irrigation engineer, and subsequently it was changed to United States Indian inspector, and in the second appointment "Chief irrigation engineer" was added to it, and the last appomt- ment, which was an appointment by the Secretary,^ the other two appointments having been Presidential, I was called "Chief inspector of irrigation." My duties have not materially changed, although my 645 646 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. authorities have been extended in the past four or five years over and above what they were originally. Mr. Sloan. Prior to your last appointment were you more directly connected with the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Prior to your last appointment, did the Reclamation Service or the Geological Survey have supervision of the irrigation projects of Indians in any way? Mr. Code. At the time Mr. Garfield became Secretary of the Interior it was his idea to bring about a very close cooperation, at least^ between the two irrigation branches of his department, and he directed me to confer with Mr. Newell on all matters pertaining to the construction of irrigation projects for the Indians, and to send Mr. Newell copies of all my reports, which I did for some years; in fact, I send him copies now of any reports in which I think he would be interested. Mr. Sloan. You are now the chief irrigation officer of the Indian Bureau ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And what is the particular purpose of j^our office? Mr. Code. To supervise the construction of irrigation projects on various Indian reservations throughout the West. Mr. Sloan. For the welfare and benefit of the Indians? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mv. Sloan. And that is primarily the whole object of your position? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Where was your home prior to your Government service ? Mr. Code. I was in Arizona for a number of years near the town of Mesa. Mr. Sloan. Were you engaged in engineering or irrigating work prior to your employment by the Government ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. In that particular Territory of which you speak? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; in that Territory, and prior to that in Wyoming for a short time. For 11 years I was chief engineer of the consoli- dated canal system wliich constructed this canal [indicating on map] and these large canals leading south, which cover practically all of this country south of the Salt River. Mr. Sloan. You were familiar, then, with the Salt River conditions prior to your employment as engineer for the Indian Service? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; I was. Mr. Slaon. Were you familiar also with the GUa River and the reservation conditions ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; I was generally familiar with them, having lived in that country so long, I had heard a great deal about them, ana had been over on the reservation a few times. Mr. Sloan. Had you prior to your employment with the Indian Service had any work on the Gila or on behalf of the Pina Indians on their reservation ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. How early, back to what year, does your knowledge of the Salt River and the Gila River reservations run back ? Mr. Code. 1893 for Salt River, and 1902 on the Gila River. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 647 Mr. Sloan. Were conditions, after the water supply, among the Indians on 'the Gila River any different in 1902 than they are now? Mr. Code. Conditions have improved since 1902, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. And what has been the cause of that improvement? Mr. Code. Well, we had a very dry j-ear m 1902. The Salt River Valley and the Gila Valley also were in a very bad condition as regards the water supply; during the past four or five years the drought has been broken and there has been more water, and in addition to that, the Government installed a pumping plant for irrigating the Sacaton School Farm, wliich gave the Indians plenty of melons and tilings of that kind, that they did not use to have, during some of the dry periods. Then the Government has undertaken this large project of reclaiming a 10,000 acre tract, and although the project is just about completed, and the Indians have not had very much opportunity as yet to utilize the water supply, the conditions are mucn better than they were in 1902, and the outlook is better for them. Mr. Sloan. Aside from the pumping provisions, are those improved conditions attributable to any engineering projects, or anything that has been done by human ingenuity ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Just simply conditions differing from dry years and wet years ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. ■Mr. Sloan. How long has the oldest well for irrigating purposes been in operation on the Gila Reservation that you know of ? Mr. Code. About seven years ago, I think, we installed the first plant, and that was at the' Sacaton school farm. I have a photo- graph showing that plant which I would like to have you see. [Indi- catmg.] That is the water supply we developed out of the desert down there, and the success of the plant led to the construction of this large project. Mr. George. That was the pumped water ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; that is the plant I installed for the department at the Sacaton school farm, to ascertain whether we had any under- ground water in Gila VaUey. It had never been demonstrated that there was an underground supply of large volume in that valley. The Chairman. In the upper picture there are two streams repre- sented as flowing. Are they different aspects of the same stream, or are they two different ones ? Mr. Code. That is the stream right there [indicating]. That came out of either five or six 12-inch bored wells. Mr. Sloax. How long has that well been in operation? Mr Code Well, I do not believe it has been m operation more than six years. It was contracted for in 1902. Between six and seven years, I should sav. Mr. Sloax. 'S^liat kind of power was used for it? Mr. Code. Steam power. Mr. Sloan. And is, at this time ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. , • • ^ j j- *i Mr. Sloan. How many acres of land may be irrigated from the product of that well ? , -^j. •, Mr. Code. We have never operated the well continuously. It it was operated night and day, I should think anywhere Ironi 800 to 648 EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. 1,000 acres might be cared for. If it were connected with our elec- trical power, as vire contemplate connecting it, I should think that that large an area could be irrigated. Mr. Sloan. Are any other Indians, other than those in the school employ, or on the school farm, supplied with water from this well ? Mr. Code. No, sir; that is distinctly a school farm well, so far. Mr. Si.OAN. Exclusively for the school farm or the reservation farm? Mr. Code. For the school and the reservation farm, also the United States Department of Agriculture, which has an experimental farm there that they are cooperating with the Indian Service in main- taining. Mr. Sloan. What was the actual cost of that land, complete? Mr. Code. The estimated cost was $15,000. The actual cost was about $20,000. The original appropriation was only 115,000, but the superintendent of the reservation had an annual relief fund of a certain amount of money — about $40,000 a year — and he used some of his rehef money in paying tlie common labor necessary toward the construction of the plant. It was quite a difficult task to excavate in the quicksand and he had to do considerable extra work there because it caved in on us. Mr. Sloan. Then the original cost or the estimated cost, rather, was exceeded by about $5,000? Mr. Code. Well, possibly $4,000 would be nearer the correct amount. Mr. Sloan. What is the cost of maintaining and operating the pumping plant and well ? Mr. Code. It would cost at least $2,500 a year for fuel to operate that plant. Mr. Sloan. And is that upon the basis upon which it is now used, or for continuous running ? Mr. Code. As it is now used, I should think, would be more nearly correct for those figures I hiive given you. It is sometimes operated now about 16 hours a day, with two shifts, in the summer time. Mr. Sloan. Are there any other wells at present in operation ? Mr. Code. Not on that side of the river. There are some wells on the north side, which the Reclamation Service has installed. Mr. Sloan. I mean in use for the Pima Indians ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; they are not using them extensively, because the allotments have not been completed on that side, and still they have saved their crops, at least, quite an area of crops, I understand, by the use of the pumped water during the past year. IVIr. Sloan. How many acres, approximately? Mr. Code. Oh, a small area. I do not suppose they have been using water for more than 300 or 400 acres under the reclamation system up to date. They are just about readj' to start in. !Mr. Sloan. How many wells are there ready for operation? Mr. Code. About 8 wells. Mr. Sloan. Are tlicy equipped with pumps and motors to operate them ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are ditches and laterals prepared for the taking of the water ? Mr. Code. Just the main flood-water canal and main lateral. The little laterals leading down onto the lands of the Indians are not com- pleted. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT, 649 Mr. Sloan. How does that character of the water from the wells that you last spoke of compare with the one at the Sacaton farm ? Mr. Code. The analysis shows a better water on the north side than we now have at Sacaton. The analysis at Sacaton showed about 100 parts to the 100,000 — the last one I obtained about three weeks ago— of total soluble solids per 100,000, and the average of the wells on the north side, as I recall it, is about 80 parts in 100,000 total soluble sohds. Mr. Sloan. Is the proportion of solids that you have named detri- mental to vegetation or the crops which are planted and may be cultivated upon those lands ? Mr. Code. Not detrimental in case we have river water to supple- ment the supply. Mr. Sloan. Then the entire system, as it is contemplated, by well irrigation should be supplemented by river water flow to wash your land? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Without that, in time they would become affected by the solid deposits from the well water ? Mr. Code. They might, although it would be a great many years before the land would be ruined, in my opinion, Mr. Sloan, Mr. Sloan. If the number of wells should be increased and the water level lowered, is it not likely then that there would be more solid parts in the water through the greater depth ? Mr. Code. I do not think so, Mr. Sloan. When we first put in our pumping plant at Sacaton, it was in a very dry year, and things were m a most wretched condition on the Pima Reservation. There was not a green spot anywhere in sight when that plant was put in, and at that time when we had the analysis made of the Sacaton well water, we only had 68 parts of total soluble solids in 100,000, which is a very much better water than the low water flow of either the Gila or the Salt River; but after a period of four or five wet years, the water plane was elevated a number of feet, and that seemed to increase the salt content over and above what it was. As stated we put the plant in when the water plane was low. From our experience I should think that a rising water plane would tend to increase the salt content rather than a declining water plane. Mr. Sloan. Do you know what is the cause of that ? Mr. Code. Well, I have always thought it was simply due to the accumulated deposit in the soil and the raising of the water plane would tend to wash them to the surface, bring them up, just the sanie as it does in soils. If ^^ou put too much water on soil, after a time it brings up the salt contents and the alkali in the soil and leaves it on top, and it seems to me possible that the rising water plane would tend to increase the alkah and sohds in the pumped waters. Mr. Sloan. What is the average acreage that is estimated to be irrigated from the wells on the north side of the I'iver; that is, each year ? Mr. Code. Well, I do not believe we could take care of more than 7,000 acres with the wells that are in at present. Mr. Sloan. There are eight wells in at present ? Mr. Code. There are eight wells or pumping stations in, and work on a ninth one is about completed; that is, counting on nine wells. I think 800 acres to the well would be a very good estimate. 650 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. What is the cost of each one of those wells ? Mr. Code. I think Mr. Hill stated $10,000 yesterday. He is the only man who has the data exact. Mr. Sloan. Who did you say was the only man who had it? Mr. Code. Mr. Hill is the only one who has that exact data. ■ Mr. Sloan. And he is the supervising engineer for the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; and he has charge of that project. Mr. Sloan. And is he the man who testified here yesterday? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, approximately, $10,000 for each well? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What is the estimated cost of the operation of each of those wells ? Mr. Code. Well, when the land is all cultivated we have 10,000 acres signed up for with the water users' association — I should not say signed up, but we have the right to pump water for 10,000 acres of land. Our maintenance cost will be the same as the maintenance cost to be assessed against all the land in the Salt River Valley, which is estimated anywhere from 75 cents to $1 per acre per year. It would probably mean that our maintenance cost would oe about $1 per acre per annum. In addition to that, however, there would be the cost of distributing the water over the land, which would have to be paid from some fund. Possibly the Indians themselves might be able to meet that later on. But for a time these Indians must be helped. Until they get their land cut up into the tracts that the Government proposes to allot them, and fences built, and their ditches constructed, and so on, it is going to require some little money. I recommended to the office that they request this $40,000 relief fund be continued for a few years to enable these Indians to obtain these additional requriements in connection with their pump- ing project. Mj. Sloan. This maintenance cost that you speak of, is that based upon the water rights that are paid for in the Salt River Valley by members of the water users' association ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, it would be practically the same cost ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. The same as the cost of getting water for irrigation over in the Salt River Basin ? Mr. Code. The difference would be that in the Salt River Valley they have to pay for their canals and for their laterals and all dis- tributing works, and their reclamation cost will probably run $10 or $12 an acre higher than the reclamation cost for Indian lands under these wells on the Pima Reservation. But the maintenance cost will be the same, as I understand it, over the entire 220,000 acres of land on all parts of the Salt River project that have to do with power development. Mr. Sloan. What is the estimate of that cost ? Mr. Code. I do not think it has ever been given out, but I estimate approximately from 75 cents to $1 an acre ought to be sufficient to maintain that system. Mr. Sloan. Have the wells that are constructed and ready for operation been paid for? EXPENDITURES IN TH-E INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 651 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. From what fund or funds have they been paid for ? Mr. Code. From the reimbursable appropriation; that is, an alleged reimbursable appropriation made by Congress. I have never felt that it could properly be called a reimbursable appropriation, the way it is worded. Mr. Sloan. Well, if it is so enacted into law, it is not up to us to question it, is it ? Mr. Code. That is true; but I was frank to tell the committee of Congress when they asked me for my opinion on that, as to the prob- ability of repayment I mean. I simply stated that that seemed to be at least the justice of the proposition. Mr. Sloan. I did not hear your last statement. Mr. Code. I think, in justice to these Indians they should not be called upon to reimburse the Government for this particular money. The payment is put so far off in the future that it would seem to be rather doubtful whether the Government would be reimbursed for this money. This appropriation was made in 1906. Mr. Sloan. Is that the provision of $540,000 ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And only a part of that has been available up to this time, or has the whole of it been used ? Mr. Code. It has not all been used, no, sir. Mr. Sloan. How much longer does part of that appropriation still run? Mr. Code. We have sufficient to carry on the work, I think, for another year, under an appropriation of $125,000, and that will finish up all the work, I believe, that was contemplated. Mr. Sloan. For how much of the transmission-power line do the Indians have to pay ? Mr. Code. That portion which is on their reservation. Mr. Sloan. Entirely within the lines of the reservation ? Mr. Code. Within the lines of the reservation; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How was that paid for, from the point of construction on the Salt Eiver south to the North River of the Gila River Reser- vation? . „ , Mr. Code. That was paid by the Reclamation Service from the fund to be charged up as a part of the whole project in the Salt River Valley. Mr. Sloan. Was that paid out of the $100,000 which was trans- ferred from the Indian appropriation or the Pima appropriation to the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Code. The $100,000 was applied on that work as an advance payment on the reclamation of Indian lands. Mr. Sloan. Did that apply upon any particular part of the work of construction or on it generally ? Mr. Code. It was applied on it generally. Mr. Sloan. Wlio audits and disburses the accounts of those expen- Mr Code The Reclamation Service has entire charge of the work, and they make the expenditures from the reclamation fund, and then are subsequently reimbursed periodically from Indian moneys appli- cable to the purpose. 652 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. Aside from the direct appropriations by Congress, specifically for the Pima Indians, have there been any other moneys used for irrigation projects within their reservation ? Mr. Code. Not to any great extent. During the time when Super- intendent Alexander had this $40,000 relief fund, which could be expended in labor, he frequently helped the Indians out on work, and I do not know to what extent he did help them in that respect, but I presume a good many thousand dollars have been expended that there is no accounting for, except that it was expended for labor from that particular relief fund. Mr. Sloan. Would the expenditure for the employment of labor in that way be designated in those accounts as for what the work was employed or executed ? Mr. Code. It should be; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have > ou examined any of those accounts, so that you know? Mr. Code. No, sir. That work would be more or less sporadic, and I do not reall} know that Mr. Alexander has expended much in the last tlu-ee or four years; in fact, I think his appropriation has been cut off for the last two years, probably. Do you recall, Mr. Meritt, whether that relief money, 140,000, has been cut off for the last two j'ears ? Mr. Meritt. It has been cut off, but I do not know just how long. Mr. Sloan. Were the disbursements of any of these funds under your direction ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. The greater part of your service was with reference to investigating and recommending the work ? Mr. Code. Well, I would not say that. We investigate and recom- mend and subsequentl,y construct and keep full track of the disburse- ments on all projects we are charged with directly; but frequently in the past the agent has done a little work in irrigation and repairs and roads and fences, and so on, on a reservation, and I have never had any knowledge of just what was done in that respect, but we have been improving along that line and now keep an accurate account of all irrigation expenditures of any kind or character on all reservations. Mr. Sloan. What construction work, if any, have you had entire direction and control of? Mr. Code. The work on all tlie California reservations is done under the direction of my office; the work on the Walker River, Nev.; the Yakima Reservation, Wash.; the Crow Reservation, Mont.; the Fort Hall Reservation, in Idaho; the Wind River Reservation, in Wyoming; anti tlie Uinta Reservation, in Utah; and the work on the various reservations in Colorado, New j\lexico, and Arizona. Mr. Sloan. Do you have field engineers in charge of that work under your immediate direction ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. liow many have you ? Mr. Code. There are a certain number of positions called superin- tendents of irrigation. The men occupying these positions are experienced engineers, and are, also, for the most part, in fact, in every instance, disbursing officers. These men have a number of assistants under them, ranging all the way from two to live or six. These are not expensive men, but such men as assistant engineers, EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 653 junior engineers, bookkeepers, rodmen, etc., and they handle the larger projects that I have mentioned. Mr. Sloan. Are these expenditures and disbursements made under your immediate authority ? Mr. Code. They are not made under my immediate authority; no, sir. I have supervision of the work and of the expenditures generally, but these different men that I have named, or their clerks, in some instances, are the disbursing ofhcers in charge of the expenditure of the fund, in accordance with certain authorities which I help to prepare, or, rather, recommend that the Indian OfRce prepare for the approval of the department. Mr. Sloan. Approximately, how much money has been expended on the Pima Reservation in connection with the well-irrigation proj ect ? Mr. Code. About $275,000 have been expended. Mr. Sloan. Does that include any expenditures for the use of the Pima Indians on the Salt River Reservation in the Gila River Valley? Mr. Code. Do you mean a part of the $100,000? Mr. Sloan. No, sir; the $275,000 you have mentioned? Mr. Code. It does not include any of the $100,000 of advance payment that was made to the Salt River project. Mr. Sloan. That was paid by the Reclamation Service? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; this is additional to that sum. Mr. Sloan. Do these Pima Indians on the Salt River Reservation, who had original water rights of some 500 inches, pay anything for their water right to the Water Users' Association ? Mr. Code. The Indians do not pay anything, at least I have always understood that the Government will pay for the reclamation charges on these Indian lands out of the general irrigation fund. Mr. Sloan. What do you understand in reference to these original water rights; that is, those who had water rights from the natural flow of the Gila and Salt Rivers prior to the inauguration of the Roosevelt Dam? Do those who owned these water rights have to pay anything to the Water Users' Association on the Salt River ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; all of them pay, with the exception of some of the lands under this Tempe Canal. Their owners did not go mto the association, and they w-ere not signed up under the association. Mr. Sloan. Do they have to pay in the same proportion? Mr. Code. No, sir; they will not pay any reclamation chaiges at 11; they would not obtain any of the benefits of the storage. Mr. Sloan. My question apphes to those who were the oiigmal water users under the project. Mr. Code. All the original water users, with the exception of those located under the Tempe Canal, will pay their proportionate part of the cost of the construction of the Roosevelt project. Mr. Sloan. Now, let us by way of comparison put it this way: Those Indians who were the holders of original water rights on the Salt River, now on the Salt River Reservation and withm the bait River Valley project, do they have to pay the same as it is expected that the Mohave Indians will have to pay if they remove to the bait River Reservation; that is, to that portion set aside for them j Mr. Code. Yes, sir; that is my understanding, that all will pay alike. 654 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. Were you at any time since your employment in the Indian Service requested to mvestigate or consider the different projects for irrigating the Gila River Reservation? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Si.OAN. Do you know anything about the proposed San Carlos Dam^ Mr. Code. No, sir; except in a general way. I know that it was practically turned down before I went to work for the Government, and I never was requested to investigate that proposition. I was directed to go to the GDa River Reservation and investigate the possibilities for a water supply, but together with that letter of instruc- tions came reports of my predecessor in which the San Carlos project was mentioned and reported upon adversely, and believing it alto- gether too expensive a project for the Indians to undertake, or for the Indian Service to undertake for them — in fact it had been turned down, I believe, by Congress prior to that date — I confined my inves- tigation to the underground water supply. Mr. Sloan. Are you familiar with the Senate committee recom- mendations in favor of that project; that is, recommending an appro- priation of more than a million dollars for the purpose ? Mr. Code. I loiew there had been a recommendation from the Geological Survey at one time recommending that the dam be con- structed, but my understanding is that that was not approved by Congress. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether anj^ investigation was made by the Geolgoical Survey or the Reclamation Service as to the feasibility of such project ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; the Geological Survey investigated the project, and I understand that the Reclamation Service also subsequently made an investigation of the project. Mr. Sloan. Do you know at the direction of whom that investiga- tion was made ? Mr. C'Ode. I think it was done by direction of Congress, in the first instance, on the part of the Geological Survey; subsequently I think an investigation was simply made under the general authority of the reclamation act, whereby the reclamation engineers were em- powered to investigate all feasible projects. Mr. Sloan. Have you investigated the original water rights of the Pima Indians along the Gila River ? ]\Ir. Code. Their low water rights had been taken away from them for probably 25 years before I entered the employ of the Government, and I have always felt that it was impossible to ever recover those low water rights after so long a time had elapsed. Mr. Sloan. Well, I asked you if you had ever investigated them. Mr. Code. Xo, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know that as late as the year 1904 the United States district attorney made some inquiry in reference to the matter? Mr. C(WE. Yes, sir; that was in connection with the diversion in the vicinity of Florence, which is immediately above the Pima Reser- vation. Mr. Sloan. Did you investigate these water rights at that tirae? Mr. Code. There was absolutely no water up there at the time I investigated that matter. There was not sufficient water in the valley to keep the trees ahve; the elm trees around the courthouse EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 655 were dying, and the coimtry was absolutely destitute of water. There were no water rights then for either whites or Indians, to con- tend for. Mr. Sloan. How about the Gila River; did you find water there? Mr. Code. There may have been water in San Carlos County, but from Florence west, the river was dust dry, with the exception of places where the bedrock would come up sufficiently close to bring up seepage water, but all along the river between these points [indicat- ing on the map] was very dry and dusty. Mr. Sloan. Do you know, or have you investigated the matter of whether or not there was a sufficient flow of water above, and that ■ if it had not been diverted it could have reached the Pimas in the course of the natural flow of the river ? Mr. Code. No, sir, but I believe that if all the water had been turned into the river, of course some of it would have reached the Gila Reservation, If the country 150 miles above had been shut entirely out of water, it is possible that some of the water there might have reached the reservation, although the channel of the Gila River is very wide and sandy, and would have taken up a great deal of water. Mr. Sloan. Did you make an investigation of that country for the purpose of determining that question ? Mr. Code. No, sir, I never regarded it as at all feasible to attempt to fight for water rights that had been taken away so many years before. Mr. Sloan. Upon what theory did you have that idea ? Mr. Code. Simply upon the ground of the abandonment of the water rights, and the fact that the water had not been contested for until some 15, 20, or 25 years after it was diverted. Mr. Sloan. You were then placing the Indians under the same rules of law as were applicable to white people in that Territory ? Mr. Code. I never felt that they should be so treated, but I felt that it was much better to get a supply of water that was available and right at their door rather than to attempt to fight legal battles which might last for years. Mr. Sloan. Well, that would be the effect of your judgment m the matter just the same, would it not ? Mr. Code, Well, in this particular instance I think I can answer "yes" to that. Mr. Sloan. Then the Pima Indians were the origmal water users on the Gila River ? Mr. Code. They were the earhest users, of course. Mr. Sloan. Do you know who recommended to the United States district attorney or the Department of Justice the abandonment ot the suits ? ■ ■ , .t ■inr.A Mr. Code. No, sir; but I think the commissioner s report tor 1904 probably would give all the light on the question that anyone has. Mr. Sloan. You were at the head of the Reclamation Service tor the Indian Bureau at that time, were you not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember making any report .• t Mr. Code. I want to qualify my answer to your last question; i was an inspector under the Secretary of the Interior with the title ot irrigation engineer, and at that time I was sent from point to pomt €56 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. making these investigations, and I did not have as full authority then as was subsequently given me. Mr. Sloan, Who was in direct authority or control of these matters at that time ? Mr. Code. I presume I had as much authority, and probably more, than anybody else in the field over these water matters, but I did not have as full authority in the premises as has been given me since. Mr. Sloan. Who directed the policy of the Eeclamation Service at that particular time ? Mr. Code. My recommendations to the department at that time. Mr. Sloan. Was any action taken or were any projects considered without being submitted to you first for your recommendation ? Mr. Code. No, sir; none of any importance. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not at that time any attempts were made to recover the water rights for the Pima Indians, and the cost of such litigation ? Mr. Code. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Sloan. Who in the office, while you were in the field, had the supervision or direction of such work ? Mr. Code. Well, it was handled by the division called "Land," in the Indian Office. Mr. Sloan. Who was the chief of that division? Mr. Code. Maj. Larabee. Mr. Sloan. Was there any reclamation or irrigation division that was a branch of that land division at that time ? Mr. Code. There was one man who handled irrigation work, Mr. Allen. He also handled many other lines of work in addition to irrigation. Mr. Sloan. He is now one of the law clerks in the Indian Office? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And a member of the board of review? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Who was your immediate predecessor in office ? Mr. Code. Walter H. Graves. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether, from the files of your office, he made any investigation of the San Carlos Dam project, or reported upon it ? Mr. Code. He made a report based on some investigations. I do not know how extensive the investigations were. He made that report, I think, in the year 1901, and I presume I can obtain a copy of his report. Mr. Sloan. You stated that you did not think that htigation would amount to anything, except to extend along over a long period of time ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; that was simply my judgment in the premises. I am not an attorney, but I have been through a good many water fights, and know that they frequently extend over a long period of time. Mr. Sloan. And that was the opinion of others ? Mr. Code. I think it was the opinion of the office. I do not think I ever consulted with anybody about the Pima water rights— that is, anybody in the upper Gila Valley, at least. I never went up into the Solomonville country. EXPENDITTJRES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 657 Mr. Sloan. The Pima Indians at the present time are simply at the beginning of experiments in irrigation, are they not ? Mr. Code. Tliey have an absolute certainty, if they do not become discouraged in making the necessary change from large allotments to smaller ones. They have an absolute certainty in this system. Mr. Sloan. In the pumping system ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; in the pumping system and the gravity canal, they have an absolute certainty. Mr. Sloan. Upon what do you base your estimate of the certainty of the pumping system ? Mr. Code. Upon experience in the Southwest, and observation of what white people have done. Mr. Sloan. Did you hear Mr. Hill testify yesterday that for the length of time the pumps had been in operation, they were yet in an experimental stage ? Mr. Code. In what way do you understand it was experimental ? I do not beheve that the water supph' is experimental. Mr. Sloan. Is the pumping system experimental ? Mr. Code. No, sir; it can not be called an experiment any more. It is an old system in Cahfornia, and they have been using it for many years there, and in the Salt River Valley I can say they have been vising it a great many years also. Mr. Sloan. The Sacaton pump is the oldest one there, is it not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And that has been in operation for six years ? Mr. Code. For six or seven years, I think. I will get the exact data on that. Mr. Sloan. And the other wells have only been in use, in the total aggregate, something Uke five years ? Mr. Code. The Sacaton pumps on the north side, sir 1 Mr. Sloan. Has the Gila River Reservation been diminis hed or its botmdary lines changed in any way since your connection with the Indian Service ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the liaes and boundaries of the lands owned by them are still as thev originally were when you went into the service ? Mr. Code. I think they may have been enlarged somewhat since, but they have not been curtailed to my knowledge. Mr. Sloan. Have you made any recommendation that a portion of then- lands be set apart for the repayment of expenditures m con- nection with this irrigation system ? Mr. Code. No, sir. May I explain that a httle I Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir. Mr Code When this reclamation project was organized, or prior to its organization by the Secretary of the Interior, I was anxious, it possible, to have the reclamation prople spend some of the money for the Indians, as the Indian Service had no funds, and i ^^ent to Mr. Davis about it immediately after the passage ot the act. We talked it over several times, and he did not see any way by whicti the reclamation moneys could be expended for the beneht ot the Indian reservations. Finally I importuned hun so often and hard about it that he suggested at one time that a possible solution migJit be for the Indians to surrender all this part of the reservation lymg west of this range [indicating on map], embracmg about 185,UUU 658 EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTEHIOB DEPARTMENT. acres, leaving about 175,000 acres. I told him that if he would put that recommendation before the department and if it should subse- quently be referred to me I would be glad to make a report on it. Mr. Davis took the matter up when he came back to Washington, and I subsequently received a letter, signed by Mr. Walcott, the original of whicli I have here, in which this proposition was made. It was submitted by the Secretary to me for comment and I recommended that this trade be effected, retaining about 5,000 acres of land here [indicating on the map] and 1,500 acres here [indicating on the majp] for the Maricopa settlement and 12,000 acres here [indicating on the map]. Well, I recommended so many withdrawals that the recla- mation people never could see how they would get their money out of it and we failed to consumate the trade. Subsequently Mr. Leupp and Mr. Newell simply went to Congress and obtained an appropria- tion for $540,000. I was very sorry that the trade did not go through; because I thuik it was a very excellent trade for the Indians. That was all there was to that proposition. I have the letters here that will show all about that. Mr. Sloan. What system of irrigation was contemplated by the Reclamation Service in the event of that trade ? Mr. Code. The same system that is now being put in. I may say, after putting in that experimental plant and demonstrating that we had an abundant water supply in the Gila Valley, as had been demon- stratetl before in the Salt River Valley, I invited the Reclamation engineers to come down and see the supply of water we were obtain- ing, and to learn if there was any way by which they could come into that valley with some of the Reclamation money. They came down and were very much pleased with the outlook. That was in 1903 or 1904, and in 1904 this letter was written to the Secretary of the Interior by Charles D. Walcott, Director of the Geological Survey. This is the original letter with reference to the exchange, and I would like to have this incorporated in the record. Mr. Sloan. To whom is it addressed ? Mr. Code. This is a letter from Mr. Charles D. Walcott, Director of the Geological Survey, addressed to the honorable the Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C. I might say, so far as the Reclamation Service is concerned, it was just as anxious to help out in this Pima situation as the Indian Service was to have the help. I have found that to be the attitude of the Reclamation men all the way through in Indian matters. (The letter referred to by Mr. Code was admitted to the record, and is as follows:) Department of the Interior, United States Geological Survey, Washington, D. C, May 1$, 1904. "The honorable the Secretary of the Interior, Washington, D. C. Sir : I have the honor to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of April 22 inclosing a copy of the report by Mr. W. H. Code, irrigation engineer for the department. A copy of this letter has been forwarded to engineers in the field and comments received thereon. There is general agreement with Mr. Code's recommendation regarding further test wells and with his conclusions as to the possibility of pumping sufficient water for the use of Indians in the vicinity of Sacaton. In the case of installation of electric power for the purpose, however, there is division of opinion as regards the large central steam EXPENDITUKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 659 pumping plant as a necessity. It would be advantageous to have one or two small steam plants similar to the one already installed for use in case of emergency or breakdown to prevent actual suffering during temporary suspensions of electric power. It is, however, questionable as to whether it is really necessary to install a plant of 500 horsepower. On this point consultation of the engineers with Mr. Code is desirable before decision is reached. On Salt River ai'e various power possibilities which, if developed and transmission lines constructed, would enable the irrigation of more than double the area estimated as necessary for the Indians. It is important at an early date to have an established policy and put this into effect, and it is recommended that steps be taken to recommend to Congress the passage of a law similar to the provisions made for supplying water to the Indians on Yuma Reservation, Cal., and on Pyramid Lake Reservation, Nev. Such a proposed law should provide for the construction of power works by the Rec- . lamation Service, the cost thereof to be retiu'ned through the sale of unallotted lands which could be thrown open to settlement. A power plant might be constructed on Salt River as large as is economical under the circumstances and sufficient power transmitted to Sacaton, to be used on the land in ranges 5, 6, and 7 east, in which pre- sumably 10,000 acres of irrigable lands could be reclaimed by pumping for the use of the Indians. In exchange for this the Indians might surrender that portion of the reservation west of and including range 4 east, comprising about 180,000 acres of land, possibly one- half of which might be irrigated by a combined system of canals and pumping. The cost of the Indian plant should be repaid by an acreage charge as the reclaimed por- tions surrendered by the Indians. It is uncertain at present how much land can be reclaimed by pumping, but suffi- cient is known to justify a definite course of procedure and an understanding on the part of all interested that this course is to be pursued to a definite conclusion. There IS known to be power available and large quantities of water beneath the ground. Investigations on this latter point have been made by Mr. Willis T. Lee, one of our geologists, and the present information justifies proceeding along the lines indicated. RECOMMENDATIONS. It is respectfully recommended that this proposition be submitted to Mr. Code and to the Commissioner of Indian Affairs-, and that there be a definite understanding reached as to whether this course is to be followed or some alternative adopted. In case this suggestion is favorably considered, authority is asked to continue the preparation of plans for a power plant on Salt River, a transmission line, and location of wells on the Indian reservation. Also that a draft of a bill be prepared for submission at the next session of Congress and that thfe wording of this bill be approved by Mr. Code and the Commissioner of Indian Affairs, it being understood that all connected with the department will unite in favoring this or some similar proposition. It is further recommended that Mr. Code be specifically authorized and mstructed to cooperate in the preparation of plans for such pumping plant and join with any board of engineers of the Reclamation Service in recommendations on details. Very respectfully, r, „, n- < Chas. D. Walcott, Director. Indorsements: Washington, D. C, May 12, 1904, Geological Survey Director, Acknowledges letter of April 22, inclosing copy of a report by W. H. Code m re pumping plant for Gila River Indian Reservation, Ariz., and makes recommendations. Secretary, July 6, 1909, department of the Interior. Department of the Interior, May 14, 1904. „,„,-. j j: -a *■ Respectfully referred to U. S. Indian Inspector W. H. Code for consideration and report. Thos. Ryan, Acting Secretary. Mr. Sloan. How many water-power sites are there on the Salt River within the reclamation projects ? Mr. Code. There are quite a large number. I presume there are four or five places along the Salt Kiver where mtermediate use could be made of stored water as it travels down the Salt Kiver between the big storage dam and the diversion dam. Mr Sloan How many of these sites are there along that part ot the Salt River which forms the southern or southeastern boundary oi the Salt River Reservation? 660 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. Well, there are no natural sites on the river so far down in the valley It is only up in the mountains where the fall of the stream is sufficient to warrant construction of power plants. But at the point you speak of, and a little farther to the west than you have in mind, there will be two plants constructed, one by takiiig water out of the big Arizona Canal and turning it down into a canal at a lower level, which will give probably four or five thousand horse- power. A little farther along there is a sheer vertical drop in the Arizona Canal where quite an amount of power can be obtained. Mr. Sloan. Would the Indians have an interest in these power sites ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; the Indians have an interest in all the power and everything that enters into power. Mr. Sloan. They would participate in the same degree and in the same way as individual members of the water users' association? Mr. Code. That is my understanding. Mr. Sloan. Does the care and protection of these interests come under your direction and control ? Mr. Code. Well, up to date, of course, there has not been anything except construction, and I presume that matter will be handled by the Reclamation Service and by the superintendent in charge of the Pima Reservation. I would not have any direct charge of it beyond acting in an advisory capacity. Mr. Sloan. Is it beyond your jurisdiction? Mr. Code. I would not say that, but it probably would not be neces- sary for me to have anything specifically to do with it. Mr. Sloan. How many Indians are there on the Gila River Reservation ? Mr. Code. Something over 4,000 Indians are now on the Gila River Reservation proper. IflgMr. Sloan. Does that include the number of Pimas on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Does that include these Maricopas 1 What is the entire total of the Indians resident on the Gila River Reservation ? Mr. Code. Only the 4,000 I have mentioned, approximately, and about 1,050 more on the Salt and Lehi Reservations, but, I presume, there are several thousands of Papagoes that are wandering around south of the Gila Reservation that would like to go there if they had an opportunity to obtain water for irrigation purposes. Mr. Sloan. "Then, is it your behef that they have no right there? Mr. Code. I think they have a right there, but there is no incentive for them to go up there. Mr. Sloan. Have they other lands ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; they have large areas of land that have been recently allotted to them south of the Gila Reservation. I might say in this connection that I recently detailed a very competent engineer, who traveled five or six hundred miles by wagon all around among the Papago Indians and visited their various villages, and he has submitted a very comprehensive report for the betterment of the Papago Indians along irrigation lines, and he made surveys with a view of increasing their water supply. Mr. Sloan. What do I understand your statement to be as to the total number of Indians on the Gila River Reservation, not including those on the Salt River Reservation ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOR DEPAETMENT. 661 Mr. Code. About 4,000; there may be a few over that. Mr. Sloan. What quantity of land on the Gila River Reservation can be classed as irrigable land ? Mr. Code. There is a large area of land that could be classed as irrigable if we had the money to put in the additional pumping plants and extend the canal. There is quite a large area which borders the river that is irrigable. Mr. Sloan, in order to do that it would practically cost the same per acre to make those lands irrigable as it would cost to obtain the water rights per acre on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Code. Fully as much, and possibly more. Mr. Sloan. At the least, the cost would be from $45 to $50 per acre ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you given any consideration at all to the San Carlos project furnishing water for a larger area of irrigable lands than would be possible under the pumping system ? Mr. Code. No, sir. I have regarded the San Carlos project as one beyond the hope of the Indian Bureau. Mr. Sloan. But not beyond the hope of the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Code. No, sir; not beyond the Reclamation Service, but the Indian Service can not help them out. Mr. Sloan. Under the same system that has been inaugurated in the Salt River Valley, is there a sufficient area of irrigable land and sufficient water and reservoirs to provide for the same improvement in the Gila River as in the Salt River Reservation 1 Mr. Code. The reservoir capacity in the Gila is very much smaller. It is in the neighborhood of 250,000 acre-feet capacity, and the water supply is not so abundant as in the Salt River Valley, where they have two rivers, one to store during floods and one to draw upon. Mr. Sloan. The Verde River is a large part of the irrigable system of the Salt River, is it not 1 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. For the purpose of comparison, please state the pro- portions. Mr. Code. I should say that the proportions were probably three- eighths and five-eighths; five-eighths for the Salt River and three- eighths for the Verde River. Mr. Sloan. I understood Mr. Hill to say yesterday that the com- parison was 5 parts to 7. Mr. Code. Do you mean 5 parts for the Salt River and 7 for the Verde River ? Mr. Sloan. No; 5 parts for the Verde and 7 for the Salt River. Mr. Code. Possibly that is more nearly correct than my observa- tion, because they have been keeping the measurements of the two streams for a number of years now, and should have good knowledge concerning them. . Mr. Sloan. Some of them would be likely to have that information i Mr. Code. Yes, sir; and more accurately than I can give it. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not the McDowell Reserva- tion has been considered by the Reclamation Service as an additional reservoir for the Salt River project? ... t- Mr. Code. A number of years ago they made investigations, i think these investigations were made for the people of Maricopa County The Geological Survey conducted the work of carrying on 662 EXPENDITUKBS IN THE INTERIOB DEPARTMENT. these surveys, both for the McDowell Reservoir site and the big reser- voir site up at Roosevelt. Mr. Davis, now the chief engineer of the Reclamation Service, was the engineer under whose supervision the surveys for these reservoir sites was conducted. I have never thought that the McDowell Reservoir was seriously considered. I had never heard of its being considered seriously. Mr. Sloan. Did you ever discuss it with Mr. Newell ? Mr. Code. I think I talked it over probably with Mr. Davis years ago, but there has been no talk or suggestion of an additional reser- voir at McDowell since the Indian reservation was estabhshed there. No thought has been given to it. Mr. Sloan. In the investigations of which you speak, the expenses were met one-half by the Geological Survey and one-half by the citizens ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; I believe that is correct. I might say that about 10 years ago it looked as if the entire Salt River Valley would dry up during a long period of drought, which prevailed about that date. That was the condition in the Gila country also. The people in the Salt River Valley were quite desperate, and ready to move out, not knowing what was to become of their country unless they could get an additional water supply. So they appointed a com- mittee of 35 men to study the possibility of increasing the water supply of that great valley. I happened to be the engineer member of the committee and we met once or twice a week for many months and considered every possible scheme for obtaining a water supply for the Salt River Valley. We calculated on various submerged dams, reservoirs, and pumping plants, and even came to a consider- ation of the diversion of the Colorado River into the headwaters of one of the valley streams. That was the dream of some of the farmer members. The result of that work was that we decided that the only practical thing was reservoir construction, and that led up to Mr. Davis's retention in the capacity of engineer to make these inves- tigations for the McDowell and Roosevelt Reservoirs. (Thereupon at 3.30 o'clock p. m. the committee adjourned.) No. 17 HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ON HOUSE RESOLUTION NO. 103 TO INVESTIGATE THE EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT JULY 13, 1911 WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OITIOE 1911 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. (Committee room No. 296, House Office Building. Telephone 691. Meets on call.) JAMES M. GRAHAM, Illinois, Chairman. SCOTT FERBIS, Oklahoma. FRANK W. MONDELL, Wyoming. HENRY GEORGE, Jr., New York. LOUIS B. HANNA, North Dakota. WALTER L. HENSLEY, Missouri. THERON E. CATLIN, Missouri. John F. McCabeon, Cleric. n EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Committee on Expenditukes IN THE InTEEIOE DePAETMENT, House of Representatives, Washington, D. C, Thursday, July IS, 1911. The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m., Hon. James M. Graham presiding. Mr. Henslet. Mr. Sloan, are you ready to proceed ? TESTIMONY OF ME. W. H. CODE— Continued. Mr. Henslet. ^Mt. Code, you were sworn the other day ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Code, are you acquainted with Mr. Fowler, of Phoenix ? Mr. Code. B. A. Fowler ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. With what projects is he connected? Mr. Code. He used to be president of the board of governors of the Water Users' Association of the Salt River Valley. Mr. Sloan. Did you talk with him about the use of the McDowell Reservation for reservoir purposes ? Mr. Code. Not to my recollection; no, sir. ^Ir. Sloan. Do you know that that was generally discussed in the valley there and among the water users' association ? ilr. Code. In the early days; yes. I think it was about 1900 that the people in the vaUey began to make investigations with reference to an increased water supply, and those investigations were con- ducted up to about 1902. During that time the McDowell reservoir site was mvestigated. I think that was during the year 1901. That site was investigated by the Geological Survey to ascertain whether it was a feasible project. Mr. Sloan. Well, the storage of those waters would add materially to the irrigation waters of that particular valley, would it not ? ^h. Code. Yes, it would. ilr. Sloan. And you heard ilr. Hill say, and I think you also said, this, that it was a proportion of 5 to 7, one toward the other, the Salt River and the Verde I ilr. Code. I think I stated it in the proportion of five-eighths and ■ three-eighths. Mr. Sloan. Jkir. HiU stated 5 to 7. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And he would be competent upon that point, would he ? Mr. Code. I think so. Five parts to the Verde and 7 parts to the Salt River. 663 664 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. If that project was advanced, what increased acreage of irrigated lands would it add to the Salt River Valley ? Mr. Code. I presume that it would probably add 75,000 acres; possibly more. Mr. Sloan. Is the Salt River the largest irrigated tract in Arizona ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What is the metropolitan town of the Territory ? Mr. Code. Phoenix. Mr. Sloan. Has it ever occurred to you, or have you observed, that the reservoir waters of McDowell might be used for water purposes for the towns down the valley? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. It has not been up before you at all ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. What do you think of the feasibility of using the McDowell Reservation as a reservoir site ? Mr. Code. I never made an investigation of the plan, except that I know it was considered by the people of the vaUey and the Geolog- ical Survey in 1901, as I stated. It was subsequently abandoned m favor of the Roosevelt project, which was much more feasible. Mr. Sloan. What do you know of the feasibility of it since, if any- thing at all? Mr. Code. It has never been considered since that time. Mr. Sloan. Don't you know that Mr. Newell has since said that the Roosevelt project alone stood like a bird with one wing and that the other was necessary to supply a constant, steady flow of irrigating waters ? Mr. Code. Not the McDowell site, but the Horseshoe site, up the Verde River. Mr. Sloan. Are you familiar with that? Mr. Code. No, sir; I never visited that. Mr. Sloan. Have you heard it discussed that the two were con- sidered jointly? Mr. Code. No, sir; there has never been any discussion of the McDowell Reservation since the Indians were moved to that point by anybody. Mr. Sloan. Are you famihar enough with conditions there to say it has not since been considered at all? Mr. Code. I think I am. I have been in the valley many times, and I never heard it discussed by anybody. Mr. Sloan. Who are the owners of the ditches which carry the waters from the Salt River for irrigation purposes ? Mr. Code. The Government owns practically aU the ditches now, with the exception of the Tempe canal. Mr. Sloan. That includes both canals north and south of the river? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How did the United States acquire them ? Mr. Code. By purchase, for the benefit of the water users' associ- ation. Mr. Sloan. And the United States is now the owner of those canals ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What rights were conveyed by the purchase of the canals ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 665 Mr. Code. The rights of way and the canals themselves and all structures appurtenant to the canals. I think that is about all that could be conveyed. Mr. Sloan. It did not affect any of the water rights ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Now, in jom statement the other day, you said that you were the one in charge, on behalf of the Indians, to look after their interests in regard to irrigation matters generally ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Were you familiar with the case that arose in Montana, the case of the United States versus Winters ? Mr. Code. I am only generally familiar with it. I had nothing to do with the adjudication of the matter in any manner. Mr. Sloan. Did you understand that those rights were adjudicated, not upon the water rights that were established within the State, but upon the superior right of the United States to control waters running through its lands ? Mr. Code. Based on treaty obligations ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did it occur to you at any time that the water rights of the Pimas should have been protected upon the same basis ? Mr. Code. No, sir. This decision, of course, was rendered many years after the first investigations were made on the Pima Reserva- tion, and there was a difference, too. The Pima Reservation is an Executive order, and the Fort Belknap is a treaty reservation, and what might be true in connection with the waters on the treaty reservation might not necessarily hold on an Executive order reserva- tion. Mr. Sloan. Do you know any distinction between the rights of the Indians to the lands within an Executive order reservation and that established by a treaty ? Mr. Code. I have understood that there was a distinction, but I am not sufficient of a lawyer to pass upon that point. Mr. Sloan. Well, reservations are set apart for the benefit of the Indians, and if water is necessary for their use, would not the same be as true on an Executive order reservation as on the treaty reservation ? Mr. Code. I do not so understand; but, as I say, that is a point for an attoi'ney. Mr. Sloan. I am asking you the question as a fact. Would not the use of water be just as necessary on one as on the other ? Mr. Code. Just as necessary; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, why should they not have been subject to the same protection ? Mr. Code. They possibly should have been; but, as I stated the other day, Mr. Sloan, at the time I was sent out into the Pima Reser- vation to investigate the water conditions, the water rights were of very small value unless it had been undertaken to enter suit agamst the people in the Solomonville country, some 150 or 200 miles above. Mr. Sloan. You said that if that water had been protected, there would not have been sufficient flow to have furnished the Pmias the necessary water, did you not ? Mr. Code. I stated that there was a possibihty that some o± the water would have reached the Pima Reservation. 666 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. Mr. Sloan. And that would have been seryiceable for irrigation purposes, would it ? Mr, Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, why should not those rights have been estab- lished, the same as they were in Montana ? Mr. Code. That question had been before the Indian Office for many years, and before the Department of Justice, and a full trans- cript or digest of what had been accompUshed, or what the depart- ment had attempted to accompMsh, is shown in the comnaissioner's report of 1904. Mr. Sloan. Well, the point I want to make is this: This Winters case came up along in 1892 or 1893. Mr. Code. I think it was later than that. Mr. Sloan. 1902 or 1903; and a decision, I think, was reached in 1904, and the same principle should have applied down there, and you as chief officer would have had the opportunity of directing that, would you not ? Mr. Code. I could have suggested it to the department; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And they womd not have taken any action without your suggestion ? Mr. Code. They might have, but I do not believe they would have taken action without having taken the matter up and asking my opinion of the feasibility of the contemplated suit. Mr. Sloan. And in view of that you did not go far enough to investigate the amount of water that was used in the Solomonville district ? Mr. Code. No, sir. I regarded it as utterly impracticable to attempt to fight for these water rights that had been lost 20 or 25 years. I still think that. Mr. Sloan. You thought they were lost at that time ? Mr. Code. I did; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Upon what was that theory based ? Mr. Code. The fact that the United States had been very slow in protecting the rights of its Indians, and the white settlers had made beneficial use of the water that had been opened, and to have turned the water down the Gila Channel, a distance of 150 or 200 miles, to an Indian reservation would have necessitated a troop of soldiers to have guarded it by the head gates of various appropriators. I felt it was utterly impossible to bring about the restoration of those water rights in a practical manner for the Pima Indians. Mr. George. Do you mean to say that the white man was a menace in that case? Mr. Code. Yes. The white men were located in the upper valley. Mr. George. The Government could not take care of its wards, the Indians? Mr. Code. It might have by having a sufficient controlling force along the river. Mr. George. Was it not the business of the Government to take care of the Indians at any cost ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Would this water have reached way down there, 150 or 200 miles ? Mr. Code. Some of it might have reached there. Undoubtedly some of it would, but I could not state how much. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOB. DEPARTMENT. 667 , Mr. George. But the mere matter of taking care of the Indians being the only matter for consideration, it would seem to be the business of the Government to take care of the Indians, after under- taking to do that. ' Mr. Code. To have entered into that suit, I felt, Mr. George, would have meant that nothing would be accompUshed except to prolong the litigation. I believed it much better to get the water, and we have got water. Mr. Hensley. Let me ask you a question. What is your judg- ment with reference to the equity in the ca§e ? Mr. Code. The Indians are entitled, as the first users, to the waters, Mr. Hensley. In spite of the claims that the white people asserted to the use of the water ? Mr. Code. That has always been my idea, that the Indians were the first appropriators, and had the moral right to get that water. Mr. Hensley. In that case, the Government did submit, because of the opposition on the part of the white people, notwithstanding that the Indians were entitled to the water? Mr. Code. If the Government, as guardian of the Indians, does not properly protect their water rights, and white settlers come into a country and locate on lands above or below an Indian reservation, and they, through beneficial use, make a bona fide appropriation of water, and the Government takes no course of action to dispossess them of the water, but, instead, takes their money because it is Goy- emment land that they enter on — if the Government does all this and allows those people to build up homes and communities, then it seems to me as though it is not right for the Government to come in at a late date and dispossess them. Mr. Hensley. Yes; but you are impeaching the position that you took a few moments ago, that the Indians were entitled to this water supply. Mr. Code. They are, morally. Mr. Hensley. And because of those things you speak of, the fact that the white people have used these waters for years, and the Government has not protected the Indians, and the white people have paid out their money for the land that they five on, you say that those people were entitled to it. How do you reconcile the two positions ? Mr. Code. The Government should make good with these Indians, just as with the Pimas, and give them the water. Mr. Hanna. The Government has done that ? Mr. Code. The Government has done that, and that is equity. It may not be law. Mr. Hensley. You say the Government has done that ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Hensley. Do you speak of the Indians removed over on the Salt River « Mr. Code. No, sir; this is on the Gila. Mr. George. We constantly shift from one reservation to the other reservation. , • , Mr. Code. I am speaking of the Gila. SolomonviUe is about 100 or 200 miles up this river [indicating on map], and water has been furnished up there for some 25 or 30 years. There was another settlement right in here called Florence, and these people located in 668 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. there [indicating on map], I believe, in 1890 or thereabout, and there was some question at that time. Mr. Hensley. Do you speak of white people ? Mr. Code. The Florence people lived above the Gila Reservation— that is, the Florence settlement is about 150 miles or so below the Solomonville section. Later on it was found that there was no water for the Florence country. They had a period of drought for seven years there, and all the country seemed to be about to dry up and become valueless; so at the time I went down into that country there to try to get some water the Gila River was about the dryest propo- sition you ever saw and had been so for a number of years. It seemed best to try to develop the water that was right at hand rather than go into the courts and try to. fight it out and take the water from a community 200 miles above, which had been using it for many years. That was the situation. Mr. Sloan. Below Solomonville the Gila River runs through the White Mountain Reservation, does it not ? Mr. Code. The White Mountain Reservation seems to run through the San Carlos River district. Mr. Sloan. That is a rough, mountainous, rocky country, is it not? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. There arc no irrigable lands along there ? Mr. Code. There arc some irrigable lands. Mr. Sloan. Not enough to be necessary to guard in order to pro- tect the water rights all through that particular section? Mr. Code. No, sir. You can travel aroimd the vicinity of Florence and possibly there will be some points along the line where people could dig out ditches. Mr. Sloan. There would be nobody guarding this great strip of country through the San Carlos Reservation or the White Mountain Reservation ? Mr. Code. I should say that there would be no necessity of guard- ihg those canyons. Mr. Sloan. The peo])le necessary to guard woidd be above that reservation, in the neighborhood of Solomonville ? ■ Mr. Code. Yes, sir; and in the Florence country. Mr. vSloan. And those are easily accessible, are they not, to the authorities of the United Stnlcs ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; they could have stationed men in there to guard the water. Mr. Sloan. It was only l)y action through United States courts that these riglits could he protected? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And those rights were established upon the principle that when lands of the United vStates were set aside and reserved for spe(dfi(' ])urposes, that wliatever was necessary for the use and benefit of tlie hmd ror the purpose for which it was set aside should control the interests l)()lh as to the land and as to the water, were they not? Mr. (\)DE. That is the fact. Mr. Sr>OAN. Now, surely, the land in Arizona required the water as much as it did in Montana, if not more? Mr. Code. Just as much. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 669 Mr. Sloan. The Federal laws would be applicable more particu- larly within the Territory than they would in the State, would they not? Mr. Code. They would, providing that the reservations were con- sidered the same. Mr. Sloan. The only question would be as to whether it was an Executive order or otherwise ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Of a necessity, the use of the reservation territory in Arizona is based entirely upon the water that is furnished to it, as far as cultivated lands are concerned, is it not ? Mr. Code. They are of very little value without water. Mr. Sloan. The rule of law is that the Government is supreme, more particularly so in a Territory than within a State ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the only courts within the Territory of Arizona were United States courts, were they not 1 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. I might state, however, that all that matter was pretty well set forth in this report of the commissioner that I speak of. Mr. Sloan. Yes; but that report was after the first decision had been reached in the Winters case in Montana and while you were in charge ? Mr. Code. That report was of 1904. Mr. Sloan. The report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Yes ; and the Winters case was decided that same year. Mr. .Code. I understood you to say in 1902 and 1903. Mr. Sloan. Well, I think suit was brought in 1902, and the decision of the circuit court of the United States of Montana was rendered in 1904. At any rate, that information was available for you and your department, was it not ? Mr. Code. It was available when the suit was finally adjudicated; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the prosecution and control of the irrigatmg sys- tem in both instances were under your immediate charge ? Mr. Code. As a matter of fact, I never had anything to do with the Fort Belknap proposition. I knew nothing abont that decision until some time after it was rendered. The Fort Belknap work was conducted under a competent superintendent, Maj. Logan, and the irrigation canals had been constructed some years before I went to work for the Government. Mr. Sloan. Still, he was under your direction: you were his chiel officer ? , Mr. Code. I could hardly say that; no, sir. I was simply an inspector for the Secretary of the Interior at that time, being detailed from point to point, and exercising general supervision upon irriga- tion matters; but it was not untd Secretary Garfield came m that i was given a little more authority and given the title of chief engineer. Mr. Hanna. That was in what year ? Mr. Code. That was about four years ago. Mr. Hanna. 1907? . . ^ ,- Mr Code 1908. I was simply detailed from point to point, as i say, by the Secretary of the Interior, and I gave the best I could in 670 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. the way of advise and recommendations from these various points. This detail to the Pima Reservation was in 1902, and that was the first detail that I had been given. Mr. Hanna. At that time, how much land did these Indians have under cultivation down there ? Mr. Code. They did not have an acre of land under permanent cultivation. They had some flood water canals on the Gila River. Mr. Hanna. How much had they had under cultivation in times gone by ? Mr. Code. They might have had as much as twelve or fifteen thous- and acres, and possibly more, under flood-water irrigation. Mr. Hanna. And how many acres are there under cultivation at Florence and Solomonville ? Mr. Code. I presume there must be 25,000 or 30,000 acres under cultivation in the upper Gila Valley. There is very little of it under cultivation in the neighborhood of Florence. There is some flood water irrigating there, the same as at Pima, but the situation is very distressing there. Mr. Hanna. So, as a matter of fact, these people at Solomonville are cultivating twice as much as the Indians ever did cultivate in their palmiest days, and, in addition to that, you have now furnished those Indians down there with ample supply for all they can use ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The plan we are operating contemplates fur- nishing them all the water they can use for economical irrigation. Mr. Sloan. Were you, at the time of this htigation in Montana, the chief officer in reference to irrigation matters for the Indian Office ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Now, you say you have furnished a water system for the Pimas, but you said the other day that there were less than 500 acres under irrigation ? Mr. Code. At the present time; yes. The system is just about seven-eighths completed, and the Indians have not as yet made much use of the water supply. Mr. Sloan. Then, m order to establish a permanent system — that is, beyond the experimental state, with pumping stations and the like, with ditches, and so forth, the location of the Indians is necessary before it can be put into effect ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The water supply is there, and the Indians must avail themselves of it. Mr. Sloan. But they can only avail themselves of it after you fur- nish the pumping plants ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And power ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the land, through all^otment or otherwise, to locate them on ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What allotments are you making in the particular vicinity where the wells are located ? Mr. Code. The allotting agents have been directed to make allot- ments under this system, this being the main flood-water canal and the lower canal for the so-called pump ditches, and pumping stations are located about every three-quarters of a mile above each pumping ditch, the idea being to furnish these lands with flood water, whenever EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 671 there is any flood water in the Gila Kiver, and at other times to sup- plement the supply by operating these pumping plants. Mr. Sloan. Do you know how those allotments are being made there ? Mr. Code. They are to be made in units of, I beheve, 10 acres to the family. Mr. Sloan. That would include the heads of the f amihes— that is, the husband and wife, if they were of the family ? Mf. Code. Yes, sir. I do not understand that the matter has been entirely settled as to |ust how that land will finally be allotted. I think the last instructions that were sent out to the allotting agents, prepared in the Indian Office, recommended that they allot 10 acres to the family on that basis. Prior to that it had been decided that 5 acres would be allotted to each Indian, and the question then came up about the wisdom of allotting the land ui that manner, due to the fact that some families would receive a much larger area of land than they could successfully farm. This is an expensive project, and the land all ought to be cultivated under it. If a family should receive 30 or 40 acres and the head af the family could only take care of 10 acres, it would mean a large area of very productive land vacant for a great many years, which costs a great deal of money. It was with that idea that the office suggested this other mode of making allot- ments at the present time. Mr. Sloan. Then, according to these instructions, at present allot- ments are only to be provided to the man and wife of the family upon those lands that are within the irrigating-well district ? Mr. Code. That was the idea, I believe, in the last letter. Mr. Sloan. Where were the children to be allotted ? Mr. Code. They were to be given irrigable land, which would be covered by extensions of the system, and then it was also planned to cross this river when further funds were available, in order to cover a large area of land in the vicinity of the settlement of Casa Blanca, and I presume the idea was to allot the children on irrigated land that could be later covered by a combined system of gravity canal and pumping plants. Mr. Sloan. Now, the total of 10 wells would furnish more irrigable lands at 10 acres per family than the number of families located in that immediate vicinity ; is that San tan ? Mr. Code. That is the San tan district ; yes, sir. There are various Indians located in the vicinity of Black Water Sacaton Flats who would probably be very glad to take an allotment under this pump- ing plan; to take up the surplus land over and above what would be needed for the Indians of the Santan district. Mr. Sloan. Has there ever been any conference with those Indians to determine whether or not they would be wilHng to do so ? Mr. Code. I think the matter has been pretty well considered. Mr. Sloan. With the Indians or in the office ? Mr. Code. I believe the office detailed Mr. Gunderson to confer with the Indians about this proposition. I have nothing to do with the allotting part of it. Mr. Sloan. You do not know whether anybody has ever conferred with the Indians as to their wilHngness to remove to that section ? Mr. Code. I do not know; but I understand Mr. Gunderson took the matter up with them. He is the chief supervisor of allotments. 672 EXPENDITURES IN XMK IJNTEKIOB DEJi'ABTMENT. Mr. Sloan. Now, there are a large number of Indians at Casa Blanca who are farming lands from seepage water and flood waters, are there not ? Mr. Code. No seepage water, but some flood water. Mr. Sloan. Don't you know they object to being moved to Santan ? Mr. Code. Very Hkely they do. Of course, an Indian hates to leave his country, even to cross the river, to farm land. The idea was to construct canals and put pumping plants along on the south side. I can show you that in the report, where it is given a little plainer. Mr. Sloan. This is true, however, is it not, Mr. Code, tnat these arrangements and plans have been laid out in the office without any conference with the Indians at all ? Mr. Code. So far as the engineering part of it is concerned; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. You do not know whether the Indians are willing to accept that or not ? Mr. Code. I can not say. If those Indians are not wifling, of course, I presume there are many Indians who would be glad to come. Mr. Sloan. You would be wilHng to bring in Indians from other reservations and locate them there ? Mr. Code. None except the Indians claiming to have the right. A large number of them would be glad to come here on the north side and take allotments. Mr. Sloan. What Indians ? Mr. Code. The Pimas and Maricopas. Mr. Sloan. Those are the only ones ? Mr. Code. And the Papagos. Mr. George. Have they been consulted about this ? Mr. Code. Not about the engineering part of the construction of that canal. Mr. George. They would not be consulted about the scientific details, but have they been consulted about this general proposition? Mr. Code. Yes, sir, Mr. George. Mr. Gunderson was detailed down there for the purpose of going over this matter with the Indians. Mr. George. I thought the attorney asked you that question and that you said they had not been consulted. Mr. Code. About the engineering part of it; no, sir. Mr. George. No; not about the engineering details. Of course, they would not be consulted about that. What do they know about that ? Mr. Code. That is the point. It is necessary to put a canal on the north side. Mr. George. I understood you to say that if they did not want to take the land there that was to be watered, then some other Indians probably would. Mr. Code. They are Papago Indians, who are also claiming rights on that reservation. Mr. George. And you were asked whether these Indians had been consulted, and you said not. Mr. (^ode. Then I made an error, if I said that. Mr. George. At least so I understood you. Now, what-did you say ? Mr. Code. Will you please read the testimony? I can not recall in what connection that testimony was asked. I did not intend to answer it that way. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 673 Mr. Hensley. I think it was this way, Mr. George: I think he has stated that the Indians with whom they are deahng now have been consulted, and Mr. Sloan asked him in case these Indians refused to go down there, refused to accede to that proposition, what would happen, and he said there are a large number of Indians that would come in there. Then Mr. Sloan asked liim if these other Indians were consulted and he said no. Mr. George. Then, I misunderstood him, and I will withdraw the question. Mr. Sloan. I think he said that Mr. Gunderson consulted with them, but did not know what that consultation amounted to. Mr. George. My question was drawn from what I understood to be his reply, that these Indians were not consulted about this project, but that when the project should be carried out they would be con- sulted, and that if they did not want to accept these lands, then other Indians would probably be very glad to go down there. Mr. Code. Well, I do not think the question was put in exactly that way, but those are the facts, Mr. George, that if the Indians objected to locating along the canals; that is, either the Pimas or Maricopas Mr. George. I am not asking this with any purpose of confusing you ; it is only to understand what you are saying. Mr. Code. Of course, in the first place, Congress was asked for this appropriation of $540,000 for the purpose of building these f rejects as outlined, and the Indians were not consulted, so far as know, about that. It was to be a gift on the part of the Govern- ment to the Indians, as I understood. At least, I knew nothing about the appropriation having been obtained until after it was obtained through the efforts of former Commissioner Leupp and Mr. Newell, and after that it was simply a question of engineering to build the best projects we could with the money. We assumed, of course, that the Indians would be glad to farm the lands. Mr. Sloan. Have not the Indians of Casa Blanca filed a protest with the Indian Office against removal to that particular tract of land ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. That is being irrigated by wells 1 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Why is there reason for that ? Mr. Code. The Indian Ofhce has recognized their position m the matter by wiring that these wells would be put in here at the earhest practicable date, on the south side, as contemplated in this plan. The Indian Ofhce never intended to abandon this plan of irrigating lands in the vicinity of Casa Blanca. The idea of putting in some more wells on this side was that of Supervising Engineer HiU, whom you heard a few days ago. Mr. George. To what point do you refer ? , , . . Mr Code. At the old Santan heading. He thought that m view of the excellent heading they had at this point it would be advisa,ble, in his opinion, to place a few more wells and make some extensions of this canal to cover additional lands on the north side. Mr. Sloan. How recent is that idea ? Mr. Code. Just within the last month or so. Mr. Sloan. That is, since the Indians have raised this objection to removal ? 674 EXPENDITTJKES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. No; it was before. The Indians, I think, have pro- tested about the removal, due to the letter that went out with refer- ence to allotments, and this idea of putting additional wells there, I think, was considered by Mr. Hill prooably before the letter regarding allotments went out. Mr. Sloan. Now, then, whatever Mr. Hill would do under the Reclamation Service would be entirely without consultation with the Indians, would it not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And would be simply based upon his idea as to what was, in his notion, the easiest and most feasible plan within a certain sum of money ? Mr. Code. That is the idea. Mr. Sloan. To arrange those wells? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. As a matter of fact these allotments are 10 acres under the well system. Was that the idea of removing the Indians from Casa Blanca to that particular territory ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; those that desired to move, but not all of them, because the office had never abandoned the idea — I know that I never have — of covering a large area of land on this side of the river. Mr. George. Right there, please state which side of the river. Mr. Code. The south side. Mr. George. When you say "this side of the river," you can not tell anything at all as to what you mean, when you come to read the record. Mr. Code. I beg your pardon. Mr. Sloan. Now, if the children were not allotted on the irrigable lands in the neighborhood of wells and on the south side of the river, they would be out some distance, would they not? Mr. Code. They would be from 1 to 2 miles, and maybe more, distant. Mr. Sloan. And the river is impassable a large part of the year? Mr. Code. Not a large part, but probably two or three months of the year. Mr. Sloan. Particularly during the season when they are farming? Mr. Code. During the winter season, when they are irrigating from the flood waters; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was it the intention to remove any Maricopas, or those Indians to the west of Casa Blanca, to the lands that were irrigated by wells ? Mr. Code. No, sir; neither the Maricopas nor the Indians located at the Gila Crossing were to be moved. Mr. Sloan. Wliat provision, then, has been made to take care of the water rights and benefits of the Indians at Casa Blanca and the Maricopas who are situated beyond ? Mr. Code. Do you mean at Casa Blanca or at Gila Crossing? Mr. Sloan. Both. jSIr. Code. At the ]\Iaricopa settlement the Indians' rights have been adjudicated. They have suflicient water to care for about 1,000 acres at the present time. Mr. Sloan. Is that in connection with the Utah Canal? Mr. Code. No, sir; that is in connection with the return waters from the Salt River. They are located way down at the lower end of the reservation. EXPENDITUKES IN THE IXTEBIOR DEPARTMENT. 675 Mr. Sloan. In what connection were their rights decided ? Mr. Code. They were decided by Cliief Justice Kent some seven or eight years ago. There was a question about the division of the return waters from the Salt River, and the Indian Ofhce detailed an engineer to make an investigation with a view to presenting the side of the Indians in the controversy, and in the fuial adjudication the Indians were given sufficient water to care for approximately 1,000 acres of land. Mr. Sloan. Is that the total amount of land thev had farmed there? Mr. Code. It was a very fair adjudication in the opinion of every- body familiar with the country. Mr. Sloan. And gave them all that they had previously been using ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Now, the people at the Gila Crossing, or rather, I should say, the Indians at this Indian settlement Mr. Sloan. Just excuse me for a moment. I would like to ask another question about that. These Maricopas of whom you speak are reached by the waters of the Gila River, are they not ? Mr. Code. No, sir; by the Salt River. Mr. Sloan. By the Salt River altogether ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; they are on the Gila Reservation. Mr. Sloan. All right. Mr. Code. The Indians at the Gila Crossing settlement have a certain amount of return water. During a very dry year I found it was 850 inches, and in between summers they have approximately 1,500 inches of return waters; so it never was considered that it would be necessary to move those Indians to any other point on the reservation, to put them in under pumping plants. Mr. Sloan. Are they getting as much water now as they did prior to the appropriation ol the water rights by the people above at Solo- monville and Florence ? Mr. Code. I could not say as to that. Mr. Sloan. Can you tell whether they were farming a larger area of country than they are farming now, from your observation or in- vestigation ? Mr. Code. I could not state as to that. That was many years ago, and I have no knowledge as to what they may have been farming prior to 1902. Mr. Sloan. Then, do the flood waters that have been furnished, as you say, to take the place of those that have been appropriated by white people cover lands which amount to less than 500 acres, in con- nection with the wells ? Mr. Code. The waters that have been furnished are sufficient at the present time to cover 7,000 acres of land, but the Indians have not made use of that water up to date for more than possibly a 500 acre tract. Mr. Sloan. Then, there are actually only 500 acres of lands that are being irrigated through that system at the present time ? Mr. Code. At this time. Mr. Hanna. But it is the fault of the Indians that they are not irrigating ? Mr. Code. It is the fault of the Indians, and also it takes some time to make the allotment and get matters adjusted with respect to new ditches and new fences. The reservation has not been surve.yed, and all these things take time. 676 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. George. But whose fault is that — the fault of the Indians or of the department ? Mr. Code. It is a little hard to determine very far in advance just what should be done in the way of making allotments, until all the wells have been put in and tried out, and until the Reclamation Service was sure they had found the right territory. Mr. George. Then it was not the fault of the Indians? Mr. Code. No, sir; it was not the fault of the Indians. Mr. George. Then it was the fault of the department, if there was any fault ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. It has been the policy not to make allotments until the wells are completed and the ditches constructed, in order that the allotments might be made to conform to them. Mr. Code. That is the idea. Mr. Sloan. And no such allotments have been made ? Mr. Code. None as yet. The surveys have all been completed, but the allotments would not be made until this fall. Mr. Sloan. And there has been no opportunity, therefore, for the Indians to locate and develop the lands up to this time ? Mr. Code. Nothing outside the benefit the Indians who located there are receiving from the pumping plants. Mr. Sloan. And it is necessary, in order to avail themselves of that that those who are located elsewhere be moved in ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; to a certain extent. Mr. Sloan. None of them are upon that immediate groimd at the present time, beyond those old locators or those who are located there for some time ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Were you a witness in the litigation concerning the Salt River rights in the case of Hurley v. Abbott ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did you furnish any official communications in con- nection with the matter ? Mr. Code. I think that there are letters on file in which I recom- mended that the United States intervene on behalf of the Indians. Mr. Sloan. And that intervention was largely upon your recom- mendation ? Mr. Code. It was suggested, in the first place, by the local superin- tendent, who asked vaj views when I was in the valley at that time. Mr. Hensley. Wlio is he ? Mr. Code. Mr. Goodman, of the Phoenix School. He had charge of the Phoenix School and the Fort McDowell Reservation at that time. I took the matter up with the district attorney and with Supt. Alexander, who had charge of the Salt River Reservation, and, together with Supt. Goodman, I think it was decided in conference that it would be to the interests of the Indians to have their rights adjudicated at the same time; and I subsequently so recommended to the department. Mr. Sloan. Did you furnish, as chief engineer of the Indian irri- gation service, any statement as to what water rights were existing at Fort McDowell ? Mr. Code. The surveys had been made by former superintendent of irrigation, Mr. James R. Meskimmons. These surveys, as I recall EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 677 it, were made in 1903, on the order of the Indian Office. I had noth- ing to do with the recommendations regarding the carrying on of these surveys at that time. On learning mat Mr. Meskimmons had ob- tained this data, I wrote to the department suggesting that all the information he had obtained on the McDowell Reservation and on the Salt River Reservation be furnished to the United States district attorney or to Superintendent of Irrigation Robinson, whom I had detailed to confer with the United States district attorney, and render such assistance as the attorney desired in obtaining informa- tion which would enable a proper adjudication to be made in behalf of the Indians. Mr. Sloan. Do you laiow how many acres of Fort McDowell were susceptible to irrigation? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How much ? Mr. Code. Approximately 1,300 acres were susceptible in 1902. Mr. Sloan. Upon what is your knowledge based ? Mr. Code. Upon surveys made by Mr. Meskimmons. I think we have a map here showing the irrigable area. Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether his survey showed only the lands that were irrigated, or whether it showed all that could be irrigated ? Mr. Code. I think his surveys showed all that would be considered practicable to irrigate. Mr. George. That was the amount that was irrigated about that time, was it not? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; about all that it was practicable to irrigate, Mr. George, due to the topography of the country. Mr. George. Under the then conditions. Mr. Code. Under the then conditions; 1,300 acres at that time. The valley is very narrow, and foothUls go up very rapidly. The extent of the irrigable land, therefore, is very small. Mr. Sloan. And what quantity of water would be necessary to irrigate that land? Mr. Code. Well, on the basis of the decree, I think the judge stated about 390 inches was the amount that would be required for the 1,300 acres. . Mr. Sloan. Do you know whether or not that is sufficient ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; I believe that would be sufficient for the irri- gation of that tract, together with the flood waters, which we would have the right to divert in any quantity that we desired to divert. Mr. Sloan. Would the flood waters be absolutely necessary to fur- nish' sufficient for proper irrigation for those lands, or would the 390 •inches be sufficient of itself ? r n t j. Mr. Code. I think we would need a certam amount of flood waters to supplement the low-water supply. Mr Sloan Were not whatever waters were necessary for the McDoweU Reservation an original and prior appropriation over every- thing else in that vicinity ? , , , , . ,i j. c m Code No sir If we had been held down to the amount ot water on the McDowell Reservation that had been actually put to beneficial use, I do not belive our adjudication would have given us over 150 inches of water. 98240— No. 17—11 2 678 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. Yes; but that is not the basis upon which the Govern- ment lands stand — those that are reserved for the use of the United States. The United States, under the decision in the Winters case, is entitled to whatever is necessary for the use of that land. Mr. Code. Well, Mr. Sloan, do you think that that applies in a case of this kind, where it is simply an executive-order reservation and where the Indians have only been occupying the land for about 6 years ? Do you think their claims would come in as against settlers who had been using it for 25 or .30 years ? Mr. Sloan. My idea is that it makes no difference whether it is an executive-order reservation or whether it is a treaty reservation. Whatever is necessary for the benefit of the land, goes with it, and I think in this case that that land was entitled to all the water that was necessary for its development; but the point I wanted to get at was whether you had any sufficient knowledge, or had sought sufficient knowledge, upon which to furnish evidence in that case. Mr. Code. I think that there was very good evidence when the judge decreed the amount of water that he did decree, because we put in every acre of land that had been farmed and considerable that had been washed out or \\'iped away, Mr. Sloan. As a matter of fact, if we had been held down to the land that was actually irrigated or irrigable at that particular time, I do not think we would have gotten as good an adjudication. Mr. Sloan. Then you think it was a fair adjudication ? Mr. Code. I think it was a very fair adjudication; and I want to say right here that Chief Justice Kent has been a man who has always looked out in every way for the interests of the Indians, and he deserves a great deal of credit for that. Mr. Sloan. Now, if the Indians were to remove to Salt River, what would become of their water rights on McDowell ? Mr. Code. If the Indians were to remove and accept 1,000 acres of land on the Salt River Reservation, retaining the McDowell Reser- vation, as I have recommended, it is my understanding that the judge would see that they were provided with their water; and, "in that connection, I might state that the judge allowed 200 inches additional for the Salt River Reservation. I have always thought it was with that view that the McDowell Indians were to be allowed to come down and participate in the waters adjudicated to the Salt River Reservation. Mr. Sloan. Have the Indians any assurance of the protection of their rights ? Mr. Code. Well, the Indian Office would, of course, never have put them there unless they were thoroughly assured that their water rights would be fully protected. Mr. Sloan. Now, you said that you had counseled with Mr. Good- man in reference to this matter. Mr. Code. Yes, sir; I have. Mr. Sloan. Do you remember Mr. Goodman's saying that if the Indians did not remove from McDowell to the Salt River they could go out among the white people and get along as best they could ?• Mr. Code. No ; I do not recall that. Mr. Sloan. Did you ever see his official communication to the oflB.ce to that effect ? Mr. Code. I do not recall ever having seen that, Mr. Sloan. EXPENDITURES IN -THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 679 Mr. Sloan. An expression of that kind would not be one from a person who was in sympathy with the Indians, in looking after the protection of their rights, would it 1 Mr. Code. Well, that is an expression that I would not have sup- posed Mr. Goodman would have used. Mr. Sloan. And it could not be justified under any circumstance, could it ? Mr. Code. Would you repeat the expression, please? Mr. Sloan. That if the Apaches from Fort McDowell refused to remove to the Salt River Reservation they could go out among the white people and do as best they could, or something to that effect. Mr. Code. Well, I could not indorse that sentiment. Mr. Henslet. Do j^ou mean by that that he used it as an induce- laent to get them to accept the allotment? . Mr. Sloan. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Was that language used in his report ? Mr. Sloan. It was used in one of his communications to the Indian Office, and is already published in the proceedings of this committee. Ml'. Hanna. Of these hearings ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. If the reporter v/ill make a note of it there, I will refer to the page number later. (Letter of Supt. C. W. Goodman to Commissioner of Indian Affairs Mar. 16, 1909, published in No. 6, and the statement referred to is on p. 197.) Mr. Goodman was practicallj^ in charge of both the reservations at that time ? Mr. Code. He was in charge of the Phoenix School and Fort McDowell Reservation. Mr. Sloan. They were both under his charge ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. * Mr. Sloan. The Salt River Reservation was not under him, however. Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Who was in charge of the Salt River at that time ? Mr. Code. Mr. Alexander, the superintendent at Sacaton. Mr. Sloan. Is that the J. B. Alexander ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Is he in the service now ? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. How long has he been out ? Mr. Code. He has been suspended for some two months, probably. Mr. Sloan. What was the cause of his suspension ? Mr. Code. I am not apprised of it, but the investigating officials charged him with irregularities, and he was suspended. Mr. Sloan. For misappropriation of Indian funds or something of that kind « Mr. Code. I am not conversant with the charges that have been made against him. Mr. Sloan. Well, is that the general import, so far as you under- stand it ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. , , , j. i Mr. Sloan. He was the man who expended the extra funds, or those moneys from the relief fund at Sacaton that were applied to the irt^igation projects? 680 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPABTMENT. Mr. Code. Well, he expended aU the relief moneys that were avail- able at Sacaton that went into irrigation work, or other work; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How long had he been there ? Mr. Code. I should say about 9 or 10 j'-ears. Mr. Sloan. Then, practically all the extra funds outside of the regular appropriation that have been expended in that work, have been under his direction ? Mr. Code. I could not say that practically all. Do you mean from that time, from the date he took office ? Mr. Sloan. I mean during the time he was there, during those eight or nine years. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. He was the disbursing officer of the agency ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the man who made the recommendations upon which authoritj'' was granted ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Did he have a jail at that agency? Mr. Code. I think he did, but it was not a very prominent one, as I recall. I do not remember just where it was situated. Mr. Sloan. Did he have police officers there ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of his ever striking an Indian or knocking any of them down? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. When they did not agree with him ? Mr. Code. I never heard of it; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. You never heard of anything of the kind in his adminis- tration ? Mr. Code. No, sir. ' Mr. Sloan. What do you know of his management of the Indians during the time you were there ? Mr. Code. Well, I always thought that Mr. Alexander had handled the Indians with considerable tact, but I did not have a great deal of opportunity to judge as to that, for the reason that whenever I was at Sacaton I was out over the lines, making investigations and surveys, and it was not possible for me to ascertain all the facts in connection with the management of the reservation, nor would I have been able to do so unless I was right there to look into it. Mr. Sloan. Did you have any counsels or conferences with the Indians, either directly yourself or in conjunction with Mr. Alexander? Mr. Code. I talked to a great many of the individual Indians at different times about matters generally. They were anxious to have something done, but I do not recall any particular counsel; no, sir. Mr. Sloan. Do you know of the Pima Indians making any ob- jection to the location of the McDowell Indians on their reservation? Mr. Code. No, sir; I have not heard of that. I pointed that out as a possibility in my first report regarding the feasibility of allowing the Indians to have an extra thousand acres of land on the Salt Kiver Reservation, saying that that would be a good plan, providing the Pima Indians did not object to their coming on the reservation. Mr. Sloan. What was the basis of your expected opposition in that matter? Mr. Code. The old time feud that existed between the Pimas and Apaches. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 681 Mr. Sloan. That had not entirely died out at the time you were there? Mr. Code. I do not know about that, Mr. Sloan; but I thought possibly it might not have entirely died out. Mr. Sloan. But you did know that there had been a general feud between them previously? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And it had gone to the extent of wars or killing between them ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; in the past. Mr. Sloan. Had any killings occurred during the time you had been down there in your official position ? Mr. Code. Not that I can recall, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. You do not know, then, of the Pima Indians, by peti- tion, objecting to the location of the McDowells on their reservation? Mr. Code. No, sir; I never heard of it. Mr. Sloan. If the reporter will make a note there, I wiU look up the petition that we have here and ask to have it printed in the record at that point. It ought to be numbered as an exhibit, I suppose. (The petition referred to is as follows:) SCOTTSDALE, ArIZ., December 19, 1910. Hon. E. G. Valentine, Commissioner of Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: We have heard that 5 acres would be given, to each Indian on Salt Biver Reservation, with an assured water right, together with 5 acres each, with possible water right, and 10 acres of grazing land. We also heard that the reason for limiting the grazing land to 10 acres was that there is not enough land to give larger acreage for grazing purposes. We believe that is an error. More than hali of our land would be left unallotted. We understood that there is in the neighborhood of 44,100 acres of land. Estimated number of Indians is between 900 and 1,000, so that would be over 30 acres of grazing land to each allottee instead of only 10. Inasmuch as the same tribe of Indians on the Gila River are to receive 40 acres each of grazing lands, and we have been led to believe that this reservation waa set apart for us, we respectfully ask that we be given all the land in Salt River Reser- vation which we believe to be just and right. Joseph L. Wellington, Edward Moore, John Chiago, Osef Clark, A. Jones Clark, Harvey Collins, Manuel Stewart, Juan Louise, Jose Juan Lewis, Kisto Antone, Juan Sancto, Albert Johnson, Louis J. Hanna, Geo. Howard, Jose Miguel, Claud Johnson, Charley Juan, Pablo B. Chiago, Beter Conger, Juan Chiffow, Alford Lenard, Jose King, Benjamin Tylor, Helis, John Jones, Samuel Loudlaw, Andrews Smith, Luther Minson, Jose Kisto, Jose Maniel, Maiema, Epherim Stanley, John Collins, Jose Antone, Kisto Brown, John Frederick, Steven Jones, Joel Jones, Lewis Jose, John Baptist, Frank Harvey, Joseph Ray, Eschief, Cowches, Seneeche, Chester Arthur, Cyrus Burke, Siblin Logie, Juan, Jose Juan, Juan Osef Williams, Jose Narcia, Arthur Williams, Juan Vavages Perden, Black Eagle, Paul Juan, John Norris, David McAfee, Charles Roberts, Juan Vavages Mills, Samuel Leftic, Herbert Smith, Jack Moore, Earnest Moore, San Anton, Andrew Enas, Andrew Sampson, John Anton, Jose Joes. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Alexander was iu charge of the Salt River Reserva- tion at that time, was he ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was there any time during which he was in charge at both the McDowell and Salt River Reservations ? Mr. Code. I do not recall that he was ever in charge of the McDow- ell Reservation, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. You do not know, then, that the 682 EXPBNDITUEES IN THE INTERIOE DEPAKTMENT. Mr. Code. I am not sure as to that. Mr. Sloan. Did you discuss th^ question of the removal of the McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation with Mr. Alexander ? Mr. Code. I think so — with both Mr. Alexander and Mr. Goodman. Mr. Sloan. WUl you please tell us what he said about their removal ? Mr. Code. I do not remember the details, except that he thought it would be a very good plan for the Indians to be given some addi- tional land on the Salt River Reservation, and that was also the opinion of Supt. Goodman. Mr. Sloan. Did he say anything to you about the objection of the Pimas to the removal of the Apaches to the Salt River Reser- vation ? Mr. Code. No, sir; I do not recall that that matter was brought up by Mr. Alexander. Mr. Sloan. Did he say anytliing to you about the employment of Mr. Adams and his son to induce the Apaches to move ? Mr. Code. I think that in a letter he stated that he thought Mr. Adams would be a man who could help out along those lines. I think possibly it was an office letter that I received a copy of, but I am not sure as to that. Mr. Sloan. You do not know whether you counseled with him in reference to that or not ? Mr. Code. I do not think Mr. Adams's name was brought up, although I am not sure as to that. Mr. Sloan. What was said with reference to the removal between you and Mr. Alexander ? Mr. Code. Nothing further than what I have given you. I can recall that it was discussed informally and that he thought it would be a very good plan to give these Indians this additional land. Mr. Sloan. Have you had a conversation with Mr. Alexander about the employment of Mr. Adams and his son? What was the purpose of their employment ? Mr. CoDif. I do not recall the details of that conversation regard- ing Mr. Adams and his son, if we ever had that conversation. Mr. Sloan. You were acquainted with Mr. Adams and his son? Mr. Code. No, sir; I did not know them, except in a general way. I had heard of the men. I do not recall that pomt being considered in our conference. Mr. Sloan. Have you seen an official letter from Mr. Alexander in which he said that he would see to it that if there was any oppo- sition on the part of the Pima Indians to the removal of the Apaches to their reservation he would see that the trouble did not reach to an extent that it would come to the attention of the office ? Mr. Code. I saw that letter in the official records of this investiga- tion. Mr. Sloan. Do you recall now of having any talk with him about that side of it ? Mr. Code. No, sir; I do not recall it. Mr. Sloan. Have you any idea how he would hold in check that information from reaching the Indian Office ? Mr. Code. No, sir; I can not imagine how he could. The Indians are very free to complain in a matter of that kind, and I think they would have complained directly to the Indian Office if they had not been suited. EXPENDITtTRES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 683 Mr. Sloan. Have you ever found any Indians who, because of fear of the agent in charge, would hesitate about complaining ? Mr. Code. I can not say that I have ever known of an instance where the Indians hesitated to complain if they thought their rights were infringed upon, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. You do not know whether Mr. Alexander was that character of man or not, who would exercise an arbitrary power or physical force ? Mr. Code. I do not believe he would exercise physical force, Mr, Sloan, on the Indians. Mr. Sloan. But he would go to the other limit, would he ? Mr. Code. He might endeavor to* persuade them as to what he thought was for their good, but I do not think he would go further than that. Mr. Henslet. Is this the man of whom j'ou spoke of as having been suspended? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Because of the way he used the funds of the Indians ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Do you think he would be governed by that moral idea as to the proper treatment of the Indians, notwithstanding the fact that it is reported that he has taken the funds of the Indians and appropriated those funds for his own use ? Mr. Code. The question was whether he would use physical force. Mr. Hensley. No; he asked you, if I understood him, first, if you thought he would use physical force, and you passed that, did you not ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. Code. The other question was whether he would endeavor to exercise an arbitrary power. Mr. Sloan. You said he would be governed by what would be for the welfare of the Indians. Mr. Code. Yes; I think he would endeavor to impress upon the Indians that it was to their welfare. Mr. George. Did he seek their welfare in taldng their money ? Mr. Code. Well, Mr. George, I could not state as to that. I do not know as to his guilt in that matter. I know nothing about the details of the charges. Mr. Hensley. What has been the result of that suspension? Has he had his final hearing ? Mr. Code. I do not beheve that he has, although I am not sure as to that. Mr. Sloan. I wiU ask the reporter to make a note to the effect that I would like to insert at this point the letter of J. B. Alexander, con- taining the remarks to which reference has been made. (The letter referred to is as follows :) Department or the Interior, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Sacalon, Ariz., March 2:::, 1909. The honorable the Commissioner OF Indian Aft'airs, Washington, D. t. Sir- I have the hone to acknowledge receipt ol office letter of March 10, 1909, and report of Chief Engineer ('ode, on the irrigation situation on the Camp McDowell' Reservation, suggesting that the Mohave Apaches be removed from said reservation to the Salt River Reservatien. 684 BXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOK DEPARTMENT. In reply thereto, I have to report that on October 7, 1908, I was called as a witness m a suit in which the water rights of Salt River Valley and the Verde Valley are to be adjudicated. In connection with the United States attorney and Supervisor Robin- eon I suggested that the McDowell Indians be moved on the Salt River Reservation and their right to water from the Verde River be transferred, owing to the great expense of taking the water from the Verde River. The United States attorney said that the water could be transferred by a compromise as the judge could not see his way clear to distribute the water at the head of the McDowell Indians' canal at a reasonable cost, but that the court would not order the water changed to other land for any other reason; that the expense of taking water from the river and putting same in the Indians' ditch must not be urged as a reason for transferring the water. "The recommendation that the water which is apportioned to the McDowell Reservation be transferred to a certain area of land on the neighboring Salt River Reservation under the large Government canal" should be made before a decision on the apportionment of water is made. When the water light is transferred and the area of land is signed up under the reservoir an effort should be made to increase the amount of land under the reservoir for the Pima Indians who are now cultivating 4,900 acres of land on the Salt River and Lehi Reservations. There are 3,900 acres signed up, and there should be 1,000 acres additional signed for. Allotments of the land should be made to the Pima and Maricopa Indians of the Salt River Indians as soon as possible, and said allotment should include the tract of land to be given to the Mohave-Apache Indians from McDowell Reservation. I recommend the allotment based on an acreage of 4,900 acres divided by the number of Indians residing on the Salt River and Lehi Reservations — about 750 individuals, or from 6 to 10 acres to each Indian — ^from 15 to 40 acres per family. The McDowell Mohaves to be allotted a like number of acres. The remaining part of the Salt River Reservation and the McDowell Reservation to be retained hj the Government for two or three years and then be restored to the public domain. I do not think it wise to retain any large tract of land for any length of time, for "back coimtry" and grazing land, nor is it in accord with the policy of your office. The Indian to-day finds it agreeable to spend three days with wagon and team to secure a load of wood, which he sells for $3, whereas it would be more profitable for him to work in the beet fields and at other work near home for $1.50 per day and earn $4.50 during the same three days. The "back country" and wood selling are detrimental to the Indians' progress, and the sooner such privileges are abolished the better for the Indian and his farm. There will be a cry of "stop thief" when the subject is mentioned. In fact, I have heard it said that to allot five acres of land to each Indian, and restore the remaining part of the reservation to the public domain, was a scheme to take away the Indians' land where, as a matter of fact, a count of the Indians on the Salt River and Lehi Reservations and a close estimate of the land cultivated showed an average of lOJ acres farmed per family October 1, 1904, and the grazing country is covered with a lot of ponies of no value, which are a detriment to the range. The Indians of the Salt River Reservation have good work horses and have been improving their stock. In addition to allotment of reservation lands, if you decide to act on my recommenda- tion, sec. 12, T. 1 N., R. 4E., adjoining the Salt River Reservation should be included. This was the subject of office letter dated October 9, 1908, "Land 42209-53701, 1908." So far as the Pima and Maricopa Indians are concerned, I feel sure that they would object to the Mohave-Apache Indians locating on any part of the Salt River Reserva- tion, but as there is plenty of vacant land I would advise the selection of the land without consulting the Pima, which would be in sees. 24 and 25, T. 2 N., R. 5 B., and sees. 19, 20, 29 and 30, T. 2 N., R. 6 E., situated from two to four miles east of the Pima settlement. Under the present management, I can guarantee that no friction will result between the Pima and Mohave Indians; that is, no serious friction that your office will ever hear of. I am not asking that the Salt River Reservation be kept under the Pima Agency for any personal reasons, but I honestly believe that, with efficient additional farmers, the Indians can be handled to better advantage and with better results than if you are closely associated with them. Very respectfully, J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 085 Dbpahtment of the Interior, United States Indian Service, Pima Training School, Sacaton, Ariz., September 4, 1909. The honorable the Commissioner or Indian Affairs, Washington, D. C. Sir: In reply to office letter of August 13, 1909, relative to the relocation of the Mohave Apache now on the Fort McDowell Reservation to the Salt River Reservation, the transfer of their water rights in the Verde River mentioned by Chief Engineer W. H. Code, in his letter dated July 28, 1909, to the honorable Secretary of the Interior, I have the honor to recommend that the United States attorney for Arizona be advised of the intention of your office to remove the Mohave Apache Indians from the Fort McDowell Reservation to lands of the Salt River Reservation, in T. 2 N., R. 6 E., sees. 19, 20, 21, and 22, and your desire that the rights of the Indians to water in the Verde River for lands cultivated by them on the Fort McDowell Reservation be trans- ferred to the 1,390 acres on the Salt River Reservation. I also recommend that I be authorized to sign up with the Water Users' Association of the Salt River Valley for water from the Salt River reclamation project or Tonto Reservoir, for water for tract of land not exceeding 1,390 acres on the Salt River Reservation in sections 19, 20, 21, and 22 for the Mohave Apache Indians, conditioned upon the transfer of water rights and the amount of- water to be decreed them by Judge Kent of the third judicial district of Arizona, in suit now pending, to adjudicate the rights of the Indian and white settlers of the Salt River and Verde River valleys. I also recommend that I be authorized to sign up with the aforesaid water users' association, for 1,000 acres of additional land of the Salt River Reservation, for the Pima and Maricopa Indians living thereon. There have been 3,000 acres signed up for the Salt River Reservation and there are over 4,000 acres in cultivation. Mr. ■Code states that this 1,000 acres will be entitled to stored water only, which means that the stored water for this additional 1,000 acres will be delivered when the Verde and Salt Rivers are in flood, or when there is a surplus of water in the reservoir. This .additional water with the continuous flow of 500 inches of water, to which the Indians are entitled by reason of prior appropriation, will provide water for the irrigation of 5,000 acres of land planted to wheat, which must be irrigated in the winter months, when the water is plentiful. The continuous flow of 500 inches will irrigate alfalfa and other crops during the summer. The cost of water for the land will be $156,000 for 3,900 acres already signed up, 140,000 for 1,000 acres proposed, or $196,000 in all for the Pima and Maricopa of the Salt River and Lehi Reservations, payable in 10 annual installments, which should be paid by the Indian owners of the land. If it is not possible for the Indians to pay any or all of the indebtedness, the sale of unused and unoccupied lands will provide funds to discharge the greater part thereof. The cost to the Mohave Apache Indians for water for their new lands on the Salt River Reservation may be paid under similar conditions. Either the landholder should pay for his indebtedness in 10 annual installments from personal funds, or the tribe as a whole pay the indebted- ness from funds- derived from the sale of the McDowell Reservation. I favor the idea of requiring each Indian to pay for his water rights in the Salt River Reclama- tion Project, and they should be notified that they must provide for the payment of the installments when due, or surplus land will be sold to pay same. I think that I can arrange for the removal of the McDowell Indians to the Salt River Reservation with no trouble and at a very small cost, and I recommend that it be done as soon as possible, and that the Indians be located on lands which may be allotted to them. ^ , ^ ,, , ,„ ^„,^,^ Please refer to my letter of March 22, in answer to office letter of March 10, 1909, cooperation 14247, and to my annual report for the year ending June 30, 1909, for the number of Indians residing on the Salt River and Lehi Reservations. J. B. Alexander, Superintendent. Mr. Hensley. Mr. Code, I understood you to say a while ago that this man Alexander called attention to the fact that Judge Kent should pass upon the rights of these Indians at the time this case that was mentioned was passed upon by him. n, tt t Mr. Code. I think it should have been Supt. Goodman, Mr. Hensley, who first brought my attention to it. Mr. Hensley. Goodman ? 686 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. I subsequently conferred with 'Mi. Alexan- der about the matter, however, but Mr. Goodman was the first man. Mr. Hensley. With whom did you take the matter up following that ? Mr. Code. I simply took it up with the department. I wrote a letter to the Secretary of the Interior, and that letter, I presume, was referred to the Indian Office, and the Indian Office took the action they thought proper in the premises. Mr. Hensley. Did you not have a conference with the Federal attorney there in the State concerning this matter ? Mr. Code. I am not sure whether at that time we went to the Federal attorney. I do not recall seeing him about this particular case at that time. I have the letter here, Mr. Hensley, which gives data about it. Mr. Hensley. Let me see it. There are several letters that have been introduced in evidence. Mr. Code. Possibly we have the original of that here. It is my office copy of the letter [lianding the same to Mr. Hensley]. Mr. Hensley. You quote from Mr. Alexander in this letter to the department, I note. Do you differentiate between the Alexanders? Mr. Code. Mr. Goodman, Judge Kibbe, and others in this letter are referred to Mr. Hensley. You also quote from the opinion given you by J. L. B. Alexander, United States district attorney for Arizona. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. He stated to you in this letter that the rights of the Indians would not be affected by this suit at all unless the Gov- ernment submitted the question to them. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Notwithstanding that opinion of the United States district attorney, you recommended in this letter to the depart- ment that he be instructed to submit those matters to Judge Kent, so that he could pass upon all the questions at the same time, Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. Well, if the Indians had those rights, and if those rights would not be alTected by the opinion of the court, why should you insist upon tlie department handing those papers to Judge Kent so that they could be passed upon at that time ? Mr. Code. It seemed to be the best plan, Mr. Hensley, to have the Indians' rights settled, together with the 4,000 or more white users, who were diverting waters from this stream. That was my judgment. Mr. Hexsley. You wanted the rights of all the parties interested defined by the opinion of the court ? Mr. Code. It would save a lot of trouble in the future to have it it done. Mr. Hanna. Has that letter ever been put into the record ? Mr. Hensley. I am quite sure it has been, Mr. Hanna. Mr. Hanna. If not, I would like to suggest that that letter ought to go in. Mr. Hensley. I am quite sure it is in the record. You speak of Mr. Gunderson. What particular position did he hold? Mr. Code. He was chief of the allotting agents. Mr. Hensley. Is he still in the service ? expendittje.es in the inteeioe. department. 687 Mr. Code. I think he resigned a short time ago. Mr. Hensley. About when? Mr. Code. About three months ago. Mr. Hensley. Three months ago ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hensley. I tliink that is all. Mr. George. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that this is a good place at which to adjourn. Mr. Hanna. Mr. .Sloan, if we adjourn until 2.30 o'clock, can we get through to-day? Mr. Sloan. I tliink so. The Chairman. The committee will stand adjourned until 2.30 o'clock, p. m. (Wliereupon, at 12.25 o'clock, p. m., the committee took a recess until 2.3.0 o'clock, p. m.) afternoon session. The committee reconvened, pursuant to the taking of recess, at 2.30 o'clock p. m., Hon. James M. Graham (chairman) presiding. TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM H. CODE— Continued. The Chairman. Proceed, Mr. Sloan. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Code, do you know how many acres of irrigated land, outside of that brought about by the use of the pumps, there are on the Gila Reservation ? Mr. Code. The amount varies, Mr. Sloan. Some years the Indians are enabled to cultivate probably as high as 12,000 or 15,000 acres ia grain, and other years their crops would be almost a complete failure. Mr. Sloan. Does that include the seepage waters of Gila Crossing ? Mr. Code. No, sir. The Indians at Gila Crossing have a certain area of land that they can cultivate at all times. That did not include the Gila Crossing. Mr. Sloan. They never have any failure there for absolute want of water ? Mr. Code. They have in years when their ditches are damaged more or less by floods. There may be a time when they do not receive the proper quantity of water needed for their crops. Mr. Sloan. That would be only partial, then, anyway ? Mr. Code. Partial, yes, sir; in my opinion. Mr. Sloan. Have any of those original water rights been aban- doned or lost since 1904 ? Mr. Code. On the Gila Reservation ? Mr. Sloan. Yes. Mr. Code. No, su:; not that I know of. Mr. Sloan. Do you know, or can you tell from any tests you have made up to this time, whether or not the excessive pumping for nn- gation will affect the seepage water at Gila Crossing and the other places where the Indians are dependent on that class of water ? Mr. Code. No, sir. There have been no tests made to ascertain that. But there would be no danger, Mr. Sloan, of our affecting the 688 EXPENDITTJEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. seepage water, in my opinion, as far down as Gila Crossing by any pumpmg we would do on the Gila Reservation near Sacaton. Mr. Sloan. Are the Sacaton flats near enough so that the water there would be affected ? Mr. Code. I do not think there would be any effect on the under- ground waters on the south side of the river due to pumping from 10 or 15 wells on the north side. Mr. Sloan. Have you made any tests to determine that question? Mr. Code. You could not test it, Mr. Sloan, without some years of operation. Mr. Sloan. Has that been under consideration by the Indian Serv- ice in the installing of pumps there ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you considered that from your point of view as an engineer in charge of that service ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you consulted with the engineers of the Recla- mation Service in regard to it ? Mr. Code. I think I have from time to time. Mr. Sloan. How broad a part of the valley is furnished with that underground water from which the wells procure their supply ? Mr. Code. There would be an area of quite a number of thousand acres located on both the north and the south sides of the Gila River, running along from Sacaton westerly for a distance of probably 8 or 10 miles. Mr. Sloan. And what width ? Mr. Code. Probably not to exceed 2 miles, on an average. Mr. Sloan. That is, 1 mile on either side of the river ? Mr. Code. One mile on either side. You could obtain water on lands farther north and south, but you would have to go to a greater depth, and it would make the pumping lift excessive. That is the reason we are keeping these wells only a mile or so from the river. If we should go farther back the lift would be higher, and it would be impracticable to do pumping. Mr. Sloan. That additional cost is because of the greater lift? Mr. Code. The greater lift; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. It would become excessive beyond Mr. Code. Beyond 60 feet, in my opinion, would be excessive for pumping, even with electric power, at Sacaton. Mr. Sloan. Going back, now, to the Salt River project, does each acre within that project bear its proportional share of the expense ia all the costs ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; with the exception of the area, as I said, that had not signed up. Mr. Sloan. That is, at Tempe Canal? Mr. Code. Tempe Canal. Mr. Sloan. And that has been excepted on each occasion to which reference has been made to the Salt River project ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Ever acre that is added, then, to the irrigable lands of the Salt River project cuts off some proportion of the cost of that which was originally involved ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir Mr Sloan. And the same effect is brought about in bringing in the Indian lands ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 689 Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And there was considerable eifort on the part of the water users' association to bring in the Indians for that purpose, was there not ? Mr. Code. No, sir; they had no interest in the Indians at all, as regards bringing any of the additional land in. Mr. Sloan. They had no interest in the Indians; but they did have an interest in bringing in additional lands in order that the cost might be lessened, did they not * Mr. Code. They never considered it, so far as I know. The water users' association simply were quiescent when Mr. Hill and I took up this proposition of obtaining some electric power. They were not especially anxious, however, to let us have power down in the Sacaton country, but I have always found the people in the Salt River Valley fair when it came to a matter of helping out the Indians. Mr. Sloan. It was to their own interest, was it not, that they should increase the acreage of irrigable lands ? Mr. Code. It was, in a sense, Mr. Sloan; but when they increased the acreage Mr. Sloan. Just state what that sense was. Mr. Code. I was going to. When they increased the acreage on the Indian Reservation it was necessary for them to perform addi- tional work in the way of power construction; that is, more power plants have to be put in before it would be safe for the Indians to enter into a contract to acquire power. There was a possibility that if they only had one plant m, up at Roosevelt, as was originally con- templated, there might during a period of dry years be a shortage of power at some time, in which event the Indians' lands would suffer. So I recommended that this contract be not approved unless the Secretary of the Interior could guarantee that there would be ample power to give these Indians there 1 ,000 horsepower, or as much thereof as they needed, and that made it necessary for the people in the Salt River Valley to pay an additional cost toward construction of further power plants on the Salt River; and I can not say that it would be any great advantage to the people in the valley to have the Indians come in under those conditions. Mr. Sloan. The Indian Service advanced $100,000 to the Reclama- tion Service for that purpose, did they not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then that cost was made by the Government, was it not? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; out of this appropriation of $540,000. Mr. Sloan. With reference to the lands that were assigned upon the Salt River Reservation and set apart for the McDoweU Indians, that increased the acreage that came in under the Roosevelt project did it not — the Salt River project ? Mr. Code. It would by 1,000 acres; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And if they remained where they were, upon the McDoweU Reservation, they were not vnthin that project ? Mr. Code. No, sir; they were not. Mr. Sloan. If the McDowell Reservation were set apart as a reser- voir, or any other part of the Verde River, what increased acreage of irrigable lands would be brought into that project ? Mr. Code. I think I stated this morning somewhere between 75,000 and 100,000 acres. 690 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE. DEPARTMENT. Mr. Sloan. And could the waters, after being conducted to the eastern part of the Salt River Valley, be conveyed across to the Gila River Reservation? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then, if there were not a sufficient acreage of land for the use of all the waters that might be provided by that storage, you could cross over into the other river basin and supply lands there, could you not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; it could be done, but there would be no incen- tive to do that, as there is an abundance of land in the Salt River Valley proper — more land than they have water for. Mr. Sloan. There is excessive land now beyond what it would be possible to water above from the proposed reservoirs on the Verde River ? Mr. Code. Yes; probably more than 100,000 acres could be obtained by extending canals [indicating on map] to the west of the present limits of the Salt River reclamation project. Mr. Sloan. By increasing the acreage to that extent, it would lessen the cost of the remaining part of it per acre, would it not ? Mr. Code. It depends on what that reservoir would cost. I do not believe they have ever made detailed estimates to determine just what the storage would cost on the upper Verde. The Chairman. Pardon me there, just a moment. I suppose during my absence I missed the connection. Does Mr. Sloan's question as to the storing of waters on the Verde River refer to a possible scheme or a proposed one? Mr. Code. A possible one, I think; I have not heard of any pro- posed scheme, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Sloan. I did ask you this question, however, this morning, did I not, if Mr. Newell, who was chief of the Reclamation Service, had said that the Roosevelt Reservoir, or the Salt River project, alone, without the Verde storage water, was like a bird with one wing ? Mr. Code. You said that; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Have you heard him make that statement? Mr. Code. Not in that language. Mr. Sloan. Somewhat similar to that, however; expressing that thought ? Mr. Code. I do not think I ever heard Mr. Newell state that the Reclamation Service contemplated the storage of water on the Verde as a necessary feature in coimection with the Salt River project, Mr. Sloan. However, you have heard him discuss that question, have you not ? Mr. Code. I do not think I have ever heard Mr. Newell directly. I know that was investigated years ago by Mr. Davis. Mr. Sloan. Have you heard others of the Reclamation Service dis- cuss it ? Mr. Code. I have heard it discussed probably several times in an informal way, that it would be a very good thing if all the waters on the Verde and the Salt River watersheds could be impounded; but there has been no probabihty of any reservoirs on the Verde River for a number of years. The reclamation expenditures have already been heavy in Arizona and it is not at all likely that there will be any fur- ther money for reservoirs on the Verde or any other stream for many years. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 691 The Chairman. What did you hear Mr. Davis say about it, Mr. Code ? Mr. Code. He made the investigations in an early day to see whether it was possible to construct a reservoir on the Camp McDowell Reservation. But I think the result of his investigations was such as to convince him that it was not a feasible project in comparison with the Roosevelt project on the upper Salt. The Chairman. Where is the Horseshoe Canal, or the Horseshoe Dam, on the Verde ? Mr. Code. Up about 50 or 60 miles, to my understanding, from the confluence of the streams. The Chairman. That would be about 35 miles above the north line of the McDowell Reservation? Mr. Code. I think approximately that, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. I have in my hand a pamphlet issued by the United States Geological Survey, entitled "Water Supply and frriga- tion Papers of the United State Geological Survey, No. 2. Irrigation Near Phoenix, Arizona. — Davis." 'That would be Arthur P. Davis? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He is second in command in the Reclamation Service ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Under the topic "Rio Verde" he says: This enterprise contemplates tlie storage of waters at the site on the Rio Verde known as the Horseshoe Reservoir, in T. 8 N., R. 6 E., Gila and Salt River meridian. The draining area tributary to this reservoir is nearly 0,000 square miles. The proposed height of the dam at this point is 150 feet above the present surface of the river, and it will extend to a maximum depth of 25 feet to bedrock. It will be 386 feet long at the low-water line of the river, and 1,250 feet along the top. It is proposed to build this dam of a rock-filled type having side slopes of 2:3, made impervious on the water side by a sheet of asphalt pavement extending to bedrock. The spillway is situated over 2,000 feet west of the dam and is separated from it by a mass of rocks rising over 75 feet above the spillway. It will be about 1,000 feet long. This reservoir will have a length of about 6 miles, a surface area of 3,402 acres, and a capacity of 20-1,935 acre-feet, as shown by the following table, which gives the area and capacity for each 10-feet eleva- tion of the surface. Then follows the table, which I shall not read, and then this text: Work upon the dam itself has not yet begun, but the outlet tunnel is completed. It is intended to divert the river through this tunnel when necessary to complete the foundations. The tunnel is 715 feet long, 12 feet in diameter, with open-cut approaches. The Chairman. He goes on further and gives other particulars concerniag the construction of it. This is for the year 1897, at least it is dated 1897. Mr. Hanna. Mr. Chairman, how many acre-feet was that reservoir supposed to hold ? The Chairman. Two hundred and four thousand nine hundred and thirty-five. Mr. Hanna. How many acre-feet has the Roosevelt Dam ? Mr. Code. One million three hundred thousand. Mr. Hanna. Then that proportion you had a while ago of three- eighths and five-eighths was not right, was it ? Mr. Code. That was not right for the storage capacity; no, sir. It was with reference to the respective volume of flow in both rivers. The Chairman. I might add to that from the text on page 63 : About 18 miles below the Horseshoe Reservoir the water is to be diverted from the river by a dam 90 feet high and 475 feet long of the rock-filled type. Here the canal is to head with a bottom width of 25 feet, depth of water 8 feet, side slopes 1:1, and 692 EXPENDITURES IK THE INTEBIOE DEPAETMENT. a fall of .0003 . The estimated mean velocity is to be 3 feet per second and the capacity 800 cubic feet per second. This section is continued for a distance of 54 miles, a con- siderable part of the distance being through rough country, with very heavy construc- tion. At the end of the 54 miles the bottom width is reduced to 20 feet, and this width is maintained 15 miles farther to the crossing of New River. At New River it is pro- posed to construct another reservoir, partly to impound the storm waters of this stream, which is ordinarily dry, and partly to receive the waste waters from the canal. He describes the proposed dam at that point. Were you aware of this report? Air. Code. That was 1897 ? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Mr. Code. That report, Mr. Chairman, I had forgotten all about. It was a report dealing with, I think, the plan of some canal company known as the Rio Verde Canal Co. It was not a Government work. I think Mr. Davis was simply reporting on what the plans and pur- poses of this company were. The Chairman. Will you look at the report, if you please, and locate in it the part which describes the nature of his connection with it, or those who are about to undertake it Pianding witness book] ? Mr. Hanna. The date of that book, 1S98, was before the question of reclamation bj'' the Government had been taken up, was it not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. And this tunnel was buUt up there, possibly, by pri- vate people, private individuals, because that must have been in advance of our Government taldng up the question of reclamation in the West. Mr. Code. It was the Rio Verde Canal Co.'s plan that he was reporting on. The Chairman. Was not Mr. Arthur P. Davis then connected with the Reclamation Service, as he is now, and was it not in that connec- tion that he made this report ? Mr. Code. At that time, Mr. Chairman, there was no Reclamation Service. The Chairman. He was with the Geological Survey ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; he was employed as engineer for the Geological Survey, and he was reporting on irrigation conditions in Arizona and investigating various enterprises^ and this Rio Verde enterprise is the one you have read about. I might state that that project was considered to be more or less speculative, and I believe that it was subsequently reported adversely upon by the citizens of Arizona, and I am not sure but what the Government might have taken some action in the premises. I think the company had a scheme to take out a canal many miles above, from the Horseshoe Reservoir, or below the Horseshoe Reservoir, at a diversion dam, and come down and cover a good deal of territory in what is known as Paradise Valley, in this vicinity, north of the Salt River [indicating on map]. Mr. PIanna. I thint the report speaks about that — the covering of some 50,000 acres in Paradise Valley. Mr. Code. That was a scheme which was apparently speculative. Many people lost money. They went and located lands in the Paradise Valley and hoped for water, but they never received any. Some surveys were made, and the tunnel whach the chairman has read about was excavated, and some few miles of a canal were constructed in the Paradise Valley. The Chairman. By private enterprise ? KXPENDITUEES IX THE INTEillOi; DBPAETMENT, 693 Mr. Code. By this company, the Rio Verde Canal Co., and that was ahout all they did in the way of actual construction. The Chairman. Can }-ou tell from recollection when the Reclama- tion Service was organized ? Mr. Code. In 1902, is my recollection. The Chairman. Do } ou know whether the Reclamation Service, after its organization, ever considered or passed upon this scheme? Mr. Code. I do not, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. The same matter seems to reappear again in the Geological Survey- Report for 1903. Mr. Code. That is the report that touches upon this Fort McDowell Reservoir, too, I imagine, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Code. I think I explained the other day how Mr. Davis hap- pened to be connected with the investigations at Fort McDowell m the earlj" day, prior to the passage of the Reclamation act. There is a Uttle history connected with that that I would be glad to reiterate. The Chairman. If it is in the record once that is quitfe enough. Mr. George. As to this Paradise Valley, that could be irrigated hy that reservoir at an-v future time ? Mr. Code. It could be. Mr. George. And the land that is now not irrigated by that could not be irrigated hy an , other process, could it ? Mr. Code. No, sir; it could not. Mr. George. So that that is a thing of the future; it might be developed very easily? Mr. Code. It might by the Government. Mr. Georgj:. At a total expenditure, I see here, of $2,000,000. Mr. Code. I had forgotten Y>hat the estimated cost was; but it could be developed if the Go"ernment had money available. Mr. George. And according to this article that Mi-. Graham read, it would make irrigable 125,000 acres of land. ilr. Code. That would seem like a large estimate. Mr. George. I hardly think that it wo^dd irrigate 125,000 acres. Mr" George. This is Mr. Davis's estimate in his article. Mr. Code. I estimated between 75,000 and 100,000, because of the fact that the people in the Salt River Valley now have certain rights to flood waters estabhshed in the Verde, and it is probable that that estimate would be cut down, although I am not positive as to that. Mr. Sloan. Would the diversion of the waters from the Verde River to the Paradise Valley cut off the water rights on the McDowell Reserva-t.ion ? Mr. Code. Xo, sir. Mr. Sloan. It would unless they were protected m some way, would it not f Mr. Code, Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Su':-h a project as that would be would have to take into consideration the rights that have been acquired on the Salt River project bj" the use of that water? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. . . Mr SiOAN Do von know whether or not there is sutticient water to supplvboth pro'jects— that of theParadise Valley, which has been referred "to. and also the waters needed in the Salt River? 98240— No. 17— 11 3 694 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. I could not state as to that, Mr. Sloan. I think that is a matter that the Reclamation Service would have to report on; they have all the data at hand. Mr. Sloan. You have not heard of or discussed the matter to such an extent as to know whether or not such storage could supply both projects? Mr. Code. No; I have not. I heard Mr. Hill state in his testimony the other day that that was a possible reservoir site, the Horseshoe, which would be very valuable in connection with the Salt River reclamation project. Mr. Sloan. Have you discussed it with any of them far enough to know whether there would be sufficient water for both projects? Mr. Code. It depends on the area, Mr. Sloan, that they would decide on irrigating in the Paradise Valley. I should say that there would be sufficient surplus water safely JFor the irrigation of 75,000 acres. Mr. Sloan. If the proper reservoirs were constructed, say, both on McDowell and at Horseshoe, as has been suggested, would that add sufficient water to take care of both the Paradise Valley and the possible 75,000 or 100,000 acres still within the Salt River? Mr. Code. I could not answer that. I think the Reclamation Service would be about the only one which could give you the infor- mation. It has all the records of flow. Mr. Sloan. And they have figured on those projects, have they? Mr. Code. I do not think they have done much figuring on any other project except the Roosevelt; that has kept them pretty busy. They have had all they could take care of for the past five or six years. Mr. Sloan. This fact is true, the Geological Survey, through its representatives, in conjunction with the representatives of the Salt River Valley Water Users' Association, have jointly examined the ground, made test borings, and figured upon a possible dam and storage waters, have they not ? Mr. Code. They did, in 1902 and 1903; I beheve those investiga- tions were conducted about that time. Mr. Sloan. That would be of record with either the Geological Survey or the Reclamation Service, would it not ? Mr. Code. I believe it is in the pamphlet that the chairman had a short time ago. I think that all the data available was pubUshed in one of the Geological Survey pamphlets. Mr. Sloan. And the other projects, that of the Paradise Valley and of Horseshoe Dam, would also be matters of record with the Reclamation Service? Mr. Code. I think so; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Then they have the means from which to determine that question fully? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. But you have never taken it up with them at all? Mr. Code. No, sir; I have never taken up with the Reclamation Service or anybody else the construction of reservoirs on the Verde River. Mr. Sloan. You said that prior to your entrance into the Govern- ment service you were connected with the Consolidated Canals ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Who are the owners of those canals now ? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 695 Mr. Code. The estate of D. M. Ferry; C. C. Bowen, of Detroit; and Dr. A. J. Chandler, of Arizona. Mr. Sloan. They have not been conveyed to the United States in connection with the Salt River project? Mr. Code. They have now; they have recently been conveyed, in the last year or so. Mr. Sloan. And how did the United States acquire them ? Mr. Code. By purchase. Mr. Sloan. Were you interested in any way in that canal? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are you the owner of lands that are irrigated through the Salt River project? Mr. Code. I have 80 acres of land in the Salt River Valley. Mr. Sloan. And from what waters is it irrigated ? Mr. Code. It will be irrigated from the waters of the Salt River. It is up under the Government project. Mr. Sloan. By what canal ? Mr. Code. Located under the Consolidated or the present Govern- ment Canal. Mr. Sloan. Did you have original water rights there prior to the opening up of the Salt River project? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. I have water rights attached to that area, from the former Gonsohdated Canal. But those water rights in the old canals have been deemed to have no value. The Government will not recognize any water rights in any of the old canals. Mr. Sloan. You are now a member of the water users' association ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Are 5^ou connected with any other business enterprises in that vicinity ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What are they ? Mr. Code. I am the vice president of a bank, the Mesa City Bank; Ihave been for the past 12 or 13 years. Some 3 or 4 years before I went to work for the Government I was elected to that position. I have a small block of stock in the bank. I have some business prop- erty in the little to^vn of Mesa, which I have held, for the most part, some I,') or 16 years — some 6 or 7 years before I entered the Govern- ment service. I have made some little investments there in the way of additional business property and some store property in the little town of Mesa. . Mr. Sloan. The bank stock and other property that you have is dependent for its increase in value on the development of the country through the water projects ? . , Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Every acre of land and every piece ot prop- erty in that valley is dependent on irrigation for any value, Mr. &oan. ■ • 1 i. Mr. Sloan. Your friends and business associates m those enter- prises are, then, dependent the same as you are upon that same possibility of improvement ? , „, ■ ^ 3 ^ Mr. Code. Everybody in that country, Mr. Sloan, is dependent on irrigation for material prosperity. Mr Sloan. Are those business interests that you have in any way adverse to the Indian rights that you are called upon to administer ? 696 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Sloan. You think they are not? Mr. Code. Not at all. Mr. Sloan. They, however, are intermingled in such a way that they come under the one business consideration of development of the country, are they not ? Mr. Code. The development of the country, yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And, as I said before, every additional acre that is added to the irrigable lands of that project lessens the cost per acre to the balance of it, does it not ? Mr. Code. I think you would have to ask the Keclamation Service, in these instances, whether it really did lessen the cost. In the instance, especially, of the Gila Reservation pumping project. Mr. Sloan. Leaving that out for the present, and taking into con- sideration the increased acreage on the Salt River Reservation that was irrigated from the Arizona Canal, that would be true there, would it not ? Mr. Code. It would; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And the other question is simply a question of the additional cost of construction above what is contributed ? l^Ir. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. But most of that construction, as you said before, was made by an appropriation direct by Congress ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Was your interest in the Consolidated Canals trans- ferred to the United States with the sale that was made, or the acquirement by the United States ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; all of the interests of every man under the canal were transferred to the United States. Mr. Sloan. Is the bank with which you are connected in Mesa a depository of any Indian funds ? Mr. Code. No, sir; unless some employee of some school or agency might have a httle deposited there. But I have never heard that there were very many that kept deposits in the local bank. Mr. Sloan. It has not been designated by the Indian Office as a depository of any Indian fund? Mr. Code. No, sir. Mr. Hanna. Is it a State or a national bank ? Mr. Code. Is is a Territorial bank. Mr. Hensley. Are not those banks in the Territory organized under the Federal law? Mr. Code. I think not; I think in accordance with the Territorial laws. I am not a very heavy stockholder. I think I was elected vice president of that bank simply because I had lived in the country for a good many years, I knew all the people, and they had some con- fidence in me. It was not for my financial strength. Mr. Hanna. Wliat is the capital of the bank ? Mr. Code. 135,000. Mr. Sloan. There was no question about the financial standing of your business associates ? Mr. Code. They are men of some standing in the community^. Mr. Sloan. And landholders, men who are interested m the development of the country ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. We feel that we have a very good board of directors in the bank. EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOE DEPABTMENT. 697 Mr. Sloan. Is that the only bank in the town of Mesa? Mr. Code. No, sir; there is another bank. Mr. Sloan. How long has it been in operation? Mr. Code. I think about three years. Mr. Sloan. How close is Mesa to the Sacaton Agency, where Mr. Alexander resides ? Mr. Code. About 25 miles, iu another valley [explaining on map]. Sacaton is located down here; you can not see Mesa. Mr. Sloan. On the south side of the Gila Kiver ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloax. Alm.ost directly south of Mesa? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. What distance did you say? Mr. Code. About 25 miles. Mr. Sloan. Are Sacaton and Mesa iq the same county, or not ? Mr. Code. Mesa is in Maricopa County; yes, sir; both are in the same county. Mr. Hanna. Is the other bank a national bank or a Territorial bank? Mr. Code. It is a Territorial bank. In those little towns we have to loan on real estate and various things that a national bank could not very well loan on in order to oblige customers. Mr. Hanna. And the Territorial law is a little more broad? Mr. Code. It allov/s you to loan on real estate and various things that, of course, could not be loaned upon under the national banking laws. Mr. Sloan. Do you know what banks are the depositaries of Indian fimds of the Gila and Salt River Reservations ? Mr. Code. No, sir, I do not; probably some of these Phoenix banks. As a matter of- fact, I believe that most of the Indian funds are kept on deposit in Chicago, San Francisco, and New York, in the large banks. Am I not right in that, i^lr. ^Nlerritt ? Mr. Merritt. Yes, that is right. Mr. Code. In Los Angeles and San Francisco, I think, they have banks that carry some Indian funds. Mr. Sloan. At the time you were engineer for the Consolidated Canals Co., they had some wells in operation for irrigation, did they? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. How were they operated? Mr. Code. The}^ were operated by electricity that was conveyed from a power plant located north of Mesa, and it was due to the suc- cess of the underground water development at these stations that I recommended that we try out that proposition on the Sacaton Reser- vation and see if the same abundant underflow did not exist in the Gila Valley that was found to exist in the Salt River Valley. Mr. Sloan. From what power plant did you say they got their electricity ? Mr. Code. A hydro-electric power plant located north of Mesa. Mr. Sloan. Was that m connection with the Salt River project? Mr. Code. That was in connection with the ConsoUdated Canals. Mr. Sloan. Has that been acquired by the Government now? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The canal has been acquired, and I think probably negotiations are under way for the acquirement of the power plant also. 698 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Sloan. What has become of that pumping plant now? Mr. Code. It is still operating. Those plants have been ui opera- tion for some 10 years or more, and these [indicating views] are some of the farms. Some of the finest farms you can find in the Salt River Valley are under the pumping plants that have been operating for some nine or ten years. The pump water seems to be a better water, as regards keeping your fields free from weeds, and the alfalfa that is grown on such land seems to be a higher priced article than alfalfa raised through the use of water from the river direct. Mr. Geokge. That is because the water taken out of the river direct carries with it a lot of weeds ? Mr. Code. Yes; a lot of weeds. Mr. George. And the pump water is clearer? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Of course it is a fact that pump water con- tains more salts than the river at certain seasons of the year, and you should always use river water as the supplemental supply. Mr. Sloan. To wash off the alkaline deposits ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; that was my idea always in connection with this Sacaton project. Mr. Hanna. As time goes on, is there a less amount of salt in these pump waters in these wells ? Mr. Code. That has been the case in connection with the weUs that we have just been speaking about. Mr. Hanna. The reason that I speak of this is that in my State we have what they call alkali, and the more water there is added the less there is of it apparently, and after a while it almost seems to utterly pa§s away and disappear. Mr. Code. That was the case in the first deep wells put down in the Salt River Valley. The water at first tasted like brme, but after a time the salt content decreased from several hundred parts per hun- dred thousand down to, say, 100 parts of total soluble solids per hundred thousand. Mr. Hanna. There is no natural salt in that land through there, is there? It has really been brought in through the river that Mr. Hill told us about the other day, those salt springs. Mr. Code. There is probably some little salt in all the lands of Arizona, Mr. Hanna; but not to a sufficient extent to hurt the soil, except that if you supersaturate your ground you will bring up a white alkali on your soil, after irrigating for some time. Before we did anything in the way of finally deciding upon this project at Saca- ton it was all gone over very carefully by a geologist of the Geological Survey, and I should like to include his r6sum6 of the investigations, which is contained in this bulletin. Mr. Hanna. How much is there of it ? Mr. Code. That much [indicating]. Tlie Ciiaieman. One page ? Mr. Code. It is a little less than one page. The Chairman. Perhaps the best way to get it into the record is to read it in. Mr. Code. This investigation of the underground waters of the Gila River, Ariz., was made by Willis T.Lee, a geologist of the De- partment of the Interior. Mr. Hanna. Under what date is that ? EXPENDITXTEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 699 Mr. Code. 1904. It is water supply and irrigation paper No. 104. The article reads : SiQce the purpose of this investigation ie to determine the possibility of developing the waters of the underflow of the Gila Valley for the benefit of the Indians, the follow- ing facts and considerations are deemed worthy of special attention: 1. The Indians have a right, by the law of priority, to the use of the water of the Gila River. 2. This water has been taken from them, the surface waters of the Gila no longer reaching the reservation, with the result that the land cultivated by them has been reduced from 14,000 to about 7,000 acres, and even this reduced area is imperfectly supplied. 3. The valley fill is saturated with the waters of the Gila underflow. 4. Near Sacaton and at Gila Crossing the underground waters return to the surface, to some extent forming a surface flow. 5. Both experimental computation, based on conservative assumption, indicate that the volume of water in the Gila underflow is probably greater than the estimated needs of the Indians. 6. A comparatively small amount of the underflow returned to the surface as seepage water and is used for irrigation. 7. An amount of underflow sufficient for the needs of the Indians is near enough the surface to be within easy pumping distance. 8. The chemical character of the waters of the underflow is favorable to their use in irrigation. 9. Pumping plants used in irrigation near Gila Valley prove that water can be pumped rapidly enough and a cost low enough to make pumping a practicable method of securing water for irrigation for the Indians, provided its use is properly directed. 10. The Pima and Maricopa Indians are peaceful, honest, industrious, but are lack- ing in executive ability. 11. They are easily managed and are prosperous when wisely directed. 12. When left to their own devices they do not properly appreciate or utilize their advantages. 13. At Gila Crossing their most imperative need is adequate supervision. Their need elsewhere is, first, a water supply; second, supervision. 14. A water supply without supervision would be unwise. 15. As a general conclusion, it is the writer's judgment that water can be supplied for the Indians of the Gila Valley by pumping, and that by proper supervision they can with comparative ease be made moderately prosperous. The Pima situation has been a very hard problem, I want to say, Mr. Chairman, and it has been before the office for a great number of years, and I feel that we have done the best we can for those Indians on the Gila Reservation, and that they will be prosperous if they accept their allotments, and irrigate them. The Chairman. What supervision have they in conformity with the conclusion reached by the gentleman making that report ? Mr. Code. They in the past have had the supervision of a superin- tendent and a few additional farmers scatterecl around. The Chairman. What do these people actually do in the way of aiding them, to your knowledge ? Mr. Code. They, of course, are supposed to show the Indian the best way to irrigate his land, and in some instances in the past, I must say, the men whom we obtained from the Civil Service as qualified to teach the Indians irrigation were not qualified for those positions. They may never have been west of the Mississippi, and they them- selves had to learn first. But of late years the Indian Office has insisted that a man should have a knowledge of irrigation, and during the last five or six years there has been a great improvement along this line, and I think these farmers help the Indians out very mate- rially in showing them how to prepare their land. The Chairman. That has no apjjlication to the McDowell Indians, has it ? 700 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. The McDowell Indians, I believe, have an additional farmer. The Chairman. Do you know, Mr. Code, about that? Mr. Code. I could not say positively; but I think they have a farmer at that point. The Chairman. Do you mean that some one is appointed and paid for that pur]iose >: ]Sir. Code. That is my understanding, Mr. Graham; but I would not be positive about that. May I make a statement with reference to this iMfDowell Reservation? The Chairman. Of what nature '. Mr. Code. Well, as to why I recommended that they be allowed to take up some additional land in the Salt River Reservation? The Chairman. Yes. IV;r. Code. The river that the Apa'hes have to contend with is the Verde, one of the most erratic streams in Arizona. I have made several trips up there, since the Indians have been located on the reservation, and I have found that they had a very chfficult task; thejr were working hard trying to' maintain temporary dams and ditches on a river of that kind, one of the hardest types. I had been building temporary dams across the Salt River, just a little way below there, for 11 3'-ears, and they cost a good deal of money to maintain. The lands would be damaged frequently by floods; that is, the irrigable lands. Not only would the heads of their ditches gu out, but part of their farms might suffer from erosion. The dams would simply be wiped out of existence; so the idea occurred to me, while there, that there was no use of their attempting to maintain canals from that river; it would be better to put in simply a pumping plant and raise the water for the lands from the river; then, subsequently, the idea of their being allowed to benefit from the Salt River reclamation project entered into my mind. I saw the big dam, and appreciated what that would mean to the vallej', and it seemed to me a good business proposition would be for those Indians who wished to farm to come down and take 1,000 acres, say, on the Salt River project. Those who wished to remain at Fort McDowell could stay there. It was a good business move, ami I have not clianged my mind in that respect at all. It may not have been a very wise suggestion from the standpoint of the Indian; I am not prepared to state that. The Indian does not like to change his farming lands, and possibly would prefer to stay up there and fight with the Verde River. But as a business proposition it would be much better for them if they would take 1,000 ncie^ under this big project. The Chairman. You mean for the whole tribe, 213 of them? Mr. Code. Yes. That would give them only, approximately, 5 acres of irrigated land with free water, Mr. Chairman. Mr. IIensley. I would like to understand you a little more thor- oughly on tliat point. Do you mean that just those of the Indians who cared to leave the McDowell Reservation should go down in the Salt River Valley, and get the thousand acres of land you speak of, and the balance who did not care to make that move should remain up on the McDowell Reservation, and retain their property ? Mr. Code. No; I did not mean that: I meant that those who camt down would receive only the sam;' area of irrigated land that other Indians on the Salt River Reservation wouki, which would be 5 acres. EXPENDITUEES IN TEIE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 701 Mr. Hensley. But jroii would require the whole tribe to move * Mr. Code. I had no intention of asking them to leave the reserva- tion entirely. Tliis wr„s s-mply a sigf^este ' gift en my ^^ait to those who desired to farm. It was my belief that probably some of them would prefer to stay on the reservation and grow some stock and eke out a living that way; but those who desired to farm should be given a chance to come down on the Salt River Reservation and farm. I thought in time that most of them would come down on this reser- vation, when they saw how well their brothers were getting on, just the same as a great many Indians from the various villages south of the Gila River have been moving up of late years to the Salt River Reservation, because they saw that the Pimas located under the Ari- zona Canal were prosperous. They have been coming up until we now have probably .300 more Indians than there were five or six years ago. My recommendation regarding the Apaches may not have been wise from the standpoint of the Indians' desires, but so far as the business proposition is concerned I thought it was all right, and I still think that. Mr. George. What would become of their water rights on the Verde ? Mr. Code. About the water rights, that was one of the questions I went to see the chief justice about before I ever made a suggestion to the department about the matter. Of course he could not tell me. The Chairman. Wlio was that ? Mr. Code. Judge Kent. He could not tell me what he could do with reference to the changing of water rights; that is, he could not give me definite final information. And I might sa}- right here that it maj- be that some of my letters have rather put the judge in the light of having given nae some advance infoimation. I had to go to the chief justice in order to find out whether the Indians' water rights would be protected, and he did tell me some things that I put in my reports. I had great confidence in the judge, and believed that he would look out for the Indians, and when he stated to me that a possible way out of the trouble would be to adjudicate an additional 200 or 250 inches to this reservation — the Salt River Reservation I am speaking of now — I thought that would warrant us in signing up for 1,000 acres additional land for the Fort McDowell Indians, because that would more than care for the area tha,t we would have in, together with the flood water and reservoir rights which the Indians will enjoy. That was my understanding in connection with the water rights. The Chairman. If the McDowell Indians had accepted your view and acted on it it would amount to an abandonment of the cultiva- tion of the Verde Valley and in a little wliile, of course, in a loss of the water rights there ? Mr. Code. Yes; it would, Mr. Graham. The Chairman. An abandonment in the use of the wate^ .v'ould soon work an abandonment of the right to use it ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. , , , xi ■ i .. The Chairman. Indeed, as soon as the person who had the right had manifested his intention to abandon it, he would lose it; he could not change his mind later and come back and claim it. Mr. Code. I think-it takes a period of five years to work an aban- donment in Arizona. 702 EXPENDITUEErf IK THJi IjSITEEIOE DEPARTMENT. The Chairman. Even if a man expresses an intention of abandon- ing it at the time he leaves it i Mr. Code. No; if he expresses an intention of abandonment and states that he intends to locate on other land he would probably lose liis water rights at the first point. The Chairman. Was it your notion in that connection that the cultivable land in the Verde Valley would be entirely abandoned ? Mr. Code. Practically. The Chairman. And cultivated by no one ? Mr. Code. Cultivated by no one; because of the great expense of maintaining dams and taking out ditches. It would be very difficult for any small body of Indians to keep a canal system in working order which headed on the Verde Kiver. The Chairman. And yet is it not true that with such imperfect diversion dams as they had they were surer of a water supply in the dry season than they would have been down the Salt River on account of the greater need, for water down there? Mr. Code. Well, Mr. Chairman, with the adjudication of 700 inches for the Salt River Reservation they would be very, very sure of their water supply. This 700 inches as I understand it could be turned to the Indian service at any point, not only to the Indians on the Salt River, but also to the Indians at McDowell, and that being the low-water supply, with an abundance of stored water in addition, I beUeve that the Indians would be well protected. The Chairman. By the adjudication by Judge Kent in the case of Hurlejr against Abbott Mr. Code. They would be entitled only to stored water; but this additional 200 inclies that he adjudicated to this reservation would warrant us in signing up an additional amount of land, even to the extent of 2,000 acres of land. The Chairman. In the case .f Hurley against Abbott? Mr. Code. Yes; he formerly adjudicated 500 inches to this Salt River reservation, and then added 200 inches more in his last adju- dication, and it was on the strength of that I thought we would be safe. The Chaieman. That 200 inches would also be flood water? Mr. Code. No, tiiat is tlie low-water right. The Chairman. Explain what that means. Mr. Code. That means the first right to the low water of the Salt River. That is a ])aiamount riglit above every other right in the river. Mr. George. Would that l)e class A water? Mr. (ode. Yes, that would be class A water and a httle better, I think. Mr. George. But the lands talked of to be given to them were class C lands ? Mr. Code. Yes, liecause tliey had never been irrigated. They would have to l)c signed up as class C, but as I stated before, the Indian Service luiviug the w;iler turned out on the Salt River Reser- ve, liiju oould rotate that w./cer (.ciii.g low-water time and givethe Indians from jMcDowell a run of water the same as we did the Indians on the Salt River Reservation, or rather the Indians on the western part of the reservation. The Chairman. Does that classification prevail generally in that section — A, B, and C water rights ? EXPENDITUKES IN THE INXERIUK UEPABTMENT. 703 Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. Was that first promulgated in this opinion of Judge Kent ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How wide is this apphcation ? Mr. Code. It embraces all water rights in the entire Salt River Valley. The Chairman. Well, would it in the entire territory « Mr. Code. No, sir. '.the Chairman. Or does it apply only to that immediate section? Mr. Code. Just to that immediate section. I'he Chairman. So his classification of waters in there was a sort of an arbitrary classification ? . Mr. Code. Yes; based on the doctrine of prior appropriation and beneficial use. 7 he Chairman. What class is your own land in? Mr. Code. It is in class C. It simply depends on stored water. There may be a little piece of it in class B, but as I understand it there is not much difference between class B land and class C land. 'i\e Chairman. Have you put in the record your explanation and understanding of this classification of the lands which are in class A, what class A land means, and what it means to be in class B and what it means to be in class C. Mr. Code. No; I have not put that into the record yet. I'he Chairman. I wish you would clearly distinguish between these classes. Mr. Code. It is my understanding that the class A land is land that is entitled to a certain portion of the low water or the so-called normal flow of the Salt River. The judge in making his adjudica- tion called on every landowner in the county to appear before him and give the dates when they appropriated watei-; that i.s, vvlieu they actually utilized water on their lands, and from tliis grer.t m-iss of data he assembled the facts and adjudicated the water on a ba^ls of 48 inches to the quarter section; the land tliat ^a'i's farm.ed way back in 1869, the first year, of course being given the prior right. Ihat was about the first year that water was applied on lands of the whites. Then he followed down each year to the year of the decision, and he apportioned the entire low water or so-called normal flow up to the extent of some 68,000 inches, if I am not mistaken, above which amount came surplus flood waters and then stored v.aters. Now, all these lands that were entitled to the so-called normal low-water flow are colored blue and called class A lands. The class B was colored red, and it meant all land which had received water within the period of five years, I think, prior to the handing down of the decree. And the class C land was land that either had never been irrigated or else had not had water on it prior to the five-year period mentioned. The Chairman. All lands to which water is to be brought here- after under that decision would necessarily be in class C ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir, unless ultimately the Tempe people sign up. They are now in class A land, but not entitled, of course, to any of the stored water. If they should sign up their lands they will of course be entitled to this additional stored water, but they are now in class A, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. You say the Verde River is a most erratic and un- Cer'^ain at.rpa.m ? 704 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOE DEPARTMENT. Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You do not, however, mean by that that it is lia- ble to get extremely low or go dry ? Mr. Code. No, sir. The Chairman. It is a very certain stream in that regard, id it not? Mr. Code. It is a certain stream with reference to the low water supply. The Chairman. Much more so than the Salt River? Mr. Code. I am not sure about that, but I think it is fully as good. The Chairman. Let me repeat to you a table in this Geological Survey report of 1903, giving, as I understand it, the estimated monthly discharge at McDowell and Salt River Reservoir site and percentage of total at Arizona Dam. That would be a proportional statement of the water in each river in each month ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In January, the Verde River at McDowell, 0.42; Salt River, 0.52; February, Verde 0.45; Salt River, 0.50; March, Verde, 0.39; Salt River, 0.56; April, Verde, 0.20; Salt River, 0.72; May, Verde, 0.19; Salt River, 0.76; June, Verde, 0.30; Salt River, 0.62; June, Verde, 0.42; Salt River, 0.52; August, Verde, 0.49; Salt River, 0.46; September, Verde, 0.48; Salt River, 0.46; October, Verde, 0.50; Salt River, 0.44; November, Verde, 0.50; Salt River, 0.45; De- cember, Verde, 0.50; Salt River, 0.45. That total clearly indicates, clearly means, does it not, that in a wet time the Salt River has much the greater flow and in a dry time the Verde has much the greater flow? Mr. Code. Well, I did understand, Mr. Chaii'man, that it had a much larger flow. That particular year might have indicated it, and it is probable that there would be some difference in favor of the Verde in low-water times. The Chairman. In October the greatest difference occurs, and the proportion is 50 in favor of Verde to 44 in favor of the Salt River, whereas in May the proportion is 19 in the Verde to 76 in the Salt River. That would apparently be a flood time, and vastly more if the flood was in the Salt River than in the Verde River. Mr. Code. Well, the Verde has a good low-water flow. There is no irregularity or uncertainty in that connection. The Ciiairm.\n. And it is in no way affected by salt or alkaU? Mr. Code. It is the clearer stream, I think, by far of the two, under their normal conditions. The Ch.\.irman. We have some information that it has splendid dry-season suppUes, due to the fact that it is fed by springs. Is that your information ? Mr. Code. I have understood that there were springs at the head waters, and it is a very good water. The Chairman. Now, when you take into consideration the doc- trine of prior rights which prevails in that State, and which is followed by Judge Kent, even though it is troublesome or possibly expensive to maintain diversion dams and keep the 'heads of the ditches clear, taken all in all, would it not be better to retain the land that was absolutely sure at all times of a water supply than to leave that and move to other lands that under some conditions might not have a water supply? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOK DEPARTMENT. 705 Mr. Code. It would if there was to be any question at all that those McDowell Indians were not to have as good a water supply as where they now hve. It would be much better for th«m under such condi- tions to remain. I never had any idea of asking them to take up lands that did not have a lirst-class water supply. The Chairman. The maximum distance from the north end of the McDowell Reservation to the west end of tlie Salt River Reservation, to which the McDowells have been invited to go, would be how far ? Mr. Code. Oh, that would be some distance. The Chairman. From the north end of the McDowell to the west end of the proposed place Mr. Code. That would be some 20 miles,, I would say. The Chairman. Or more ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; but the Indians are now located toward the southern portion of the reservation. The Chairman. On the other hand, the least distance from the south end of McDowell to the east end of the proposed place would be how much — some 5 or 6 or 8 miles ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. The Chairman. The mean distance or average distance would be probably some 15 miles? Mr. Code. I should say the mean distance would be in the neigh- borhood of 10 miles, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. In the scheme for moving them, as you had it in mind, Mr. Code, did you contemplate the McDowells living at Verde or Salt River ? Mr. Code. Well, I contem_plated that th'^y v oidd live down here on the Salt River Reservation. The Chairman. Ultimately no other sensible \u-w coi Id be taken of it? Mr. Code. That was my idea of it, that they would live down here, those that wished to farm, and they would keep tiie Fort McDowell Reserration for their back country [indicating on map]. The Chairman. That, of course, would necessit.it? the making of new improvements on the Salt River ? Mr. Code. Yes; it would necessitate some help on the part of tJie Government, too. The Chairman. That would mean the building of a house and some sort of a barn and the fencing of their 5-acre tracts, and I suppose they ought to have garden fences i Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. Are there any trees on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Code. No. There are a few trees along the river, but they are small cottonv/ood trees. The Chairman. They are confined to t'le river bank? Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. What is the feasibility of trees growing where it was proposed to put them ? Mr, Code. You could have fine trees in a very few years. The Chairman. What character of trees? Mr. Code. Cottonwood trees, the tree that is most acceptable m that country. . . „ The Chairman. It too would depend upon irrigation ? Mr. Code. Yes. 706 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEBIOK DEPAETMENT. The Chairman. Without irrigation it would die ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; we generally plant those trees along the irri- gation ditches and they thrive and give shade, also furnish wood. The Chairman. Are you prepared to say that there has been no plan in contemplation for converting the Verde Valley or any part of it into a reservoir if the Indians would move from it ? Mr. Code. Absolutely no plan, Mr. Chairman. I have never heard that matter even hinted at since the Indians were given their reservar tion at that point. The Chairman. And the Verde would be permitted to flow on undisturbed ? Mr. Code. So far as I know. The Chairman. If they left? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; no one but the Government would be willing to undertake the construction of any reservoirs, and, as I said before, I think it will probably be some time before Arizona receives any more reservoirs. The Chairman. Would it be a feasible proposition to make a dam at the Horseshoe Canyon and store the two hundred thousand and odd acre-feet of water there? Mr. Code. I believe it would. Mr. HiU seemed to indicate that he thought it would, in his testimony the other day, and I have confi- dence in his judgment. I have never visited the point. The Chairman. Then you can not speak from your own personal knowledge ? Mr. Code. No, sir. The Chairman. Was the Verde Valley where the Indians are now cultivating the land ever covered by trees ? Mr. Code. Yes; it is covered now largely by mesquite trees and some Cottonwood. They have a very good growth of trees on por- tions of the reservation. The Chairman. And there are considerable timber facilities and Erivileges near by, are there not ? It is in evidence that the Indians ave made quite a good many fence posts and sold them at the adjoining town or agencies. Mr. Code. I think they obtained those posts from the reservation. The Chairman. It is on the reservation, but not on the cultivable land ? Mr. Code. It is contiguous. The Chairman. What is the elevation of this land ? Mr. Code. About 1,100 or 1,200 feet. The Chairman. Far above any irrigation ditch ? Mr. Code. I thought you meant how far it was above the sea level? The Chairman. No; I meant above the Verde River. Mr. Code. The trees are not more than 20 or 25 feet above the river. The Chairman. How do they thrive ? Mr. Code. Very well. A mesquite tree will thrive in the desert. The Chairman. But it does not thrive in the Salt River country? Mr. Code. Oh, yes. Not now, because they have been cut down; but they used to thrive. The country was very well forested with mesquite trees and also with ironwood trees, but they were cut down. Mr. Hanna. Those trees come back very slowly, do they not ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. The growth, I mean, is very slow? EXPENDITURES IN THE INTERIOE DEPARTMENT. 707 Mr. Code. The ironwood is a very slow growing tree and the wood is very hard and fine. It was too Bad to burn it. The Chairman. Do you regard it as a disadvantage to the Indians when you consider the work of elevating him to complete civilization to have the conditions such that he has got to do a great deal of work every year to keep his ditches clean « Is it not in fine with the higher developnaent and better civihzation of the Indian ? Mr. Code. It is; but it is pretty hard luck if the Indian has to put in about all his time on the ditches. The Chairman. We have not any evidence before us up to this time that that is the case. Have thev ever failed to raise a crop in the Verde Valley ? Mr. Code. Yes, indeed, they have. If you could have seen the conditions up there, Mr. Chairman, as I have, you would be very much surprised. May I read an extract from a report ? The Chairman. By whom? _Mr. Code. By me to the Secretary of the Interior in connection with this matter. The Chairman. Do you mean to make it part of your testimony ? Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. Very well. Mr. Code. This was written after the first trip I made to the Fort McDowell Reservation in company with Supt. Goodman: "In com- pany with Supt. Goodman I made a trip to this recently acquired reservation, but owing to the heavy rains, miry deserts, and high rivers we were unable to make as thorough an investigation of crop and canal conditions as was desired. The grain for the most part was put in too late, and does not compare at all favorably with that growing on the other reservations mentioned. "The rains and heavy floods also greatly damaged t'le ditches on this reservation, and we made a careful inspection of the principal canal, known as the Jones Ditch, 'ih.e nariow valley of the Verde River embraced within the boundaries of this reservation has a steep gradient toward the river, and tJ e Jones Canal winding its way around the base of foothills for a distance of nearly 6 miles intercepts many drainage fines which, in times of heavy storms, run vast quantities of water wliich sweep out canal banks and fill sections of the ditch with a heavy sand deposit. 'iO further increase the difficulties, the banks of the Verde River at the head of the ditch have suffered great erosion (see plates a and b) and the river channel seems to have scoured down to a considerable depth, leaving the present canal grade elevated a distance of several feet above the grade of the river. Two very cheap flumes were wasjied out along the fine of the ditcii and wifi jiave to be replaced (plate c), and on the whole the ditcli is quite badly damage>.l. "Upon learning the extent of damage inflicted I advised Superin- tendent Goodman that I would recommend an immediate appropria- tion of $500 be afiowed him with which to make an early start on repairs, delaying further recommendations until the weather would admit of a personal inspection. This was made at the first oppor- tunity, and after looking over the situation I am convmced that at least another $500 wifi be needed before the damaged ditch can be put in good, serviceable condition, and would advii-e that Superin- tendent Goodman be granted authority to spend this additional 708 EXPENDITXJEES IN THE INTEKIOB DEPABTMENT. amount should he request it later on. We were unable to cross the river to ascertain what damage was inflicted to the Velasco Ditch, but it is quite probable that this also suffered." The Chairman. That is to the east side? Mr. Code. Yes. "Superintendent Meskimmons and Farmer Gill will cooperate in effecting the necessary repairs, and the Indians will be paid very small wages, but sufficient to keep them in food while engaged on the ^york. On occasion of my next visit to Arizona I hope to be able to look the ground over under more favorable conditions and make a report as to the possibility of obtaining a more suitable heading for the canal from the Verde River." The Chairman. When was that ? Mr. Code. March 11, 1905. I just want to state further what it has cost to effect repairs to the ditches. The Chairman. vSix years ago? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. It costs considerable to maintain those little, ditches, and I recommended every time I visited the place that those Indians be given sonic money to help them out, but it seemed as if there would be no end to it. The Chairman. Has any been given to them for some years past? l\:r. Code. I think so. I tliink we have not escaped very many years. I think I have a report here which gives one concrete instance of the amount of money that has been expended. I want to quote an excerpt from the report of ]\Iarch 6, 1906. The Chairman. By you ? Mr. Code. Yes, to the SecTctary of the Interior: "The Indians have worked hard and long in effecting the oft- repeated repairs to the ditches and dams, but are becoming quite disi ouraged, and nearly 100 of them have left their new reservation for San Carlos and other points. There still remain about 100 Indi- ans, and a large number of able-bodied men have been at work for several weeks in rebuilding 4,000 feet of the Mazon ditch, which was practically obliterated for tliis distance by the disastrous flood of last November. They work for very small wages, i. e., 50 cents per diem, single hand, and $1 per diem for man and team, and board them- selves." They knew that there was not much money in sight and they were worldng down at bedrock wages, you might say. "Even at these small wages the sum of $575 was expended on repairs to this ditch by Superintendent Goodman, and it would require $300 more to complete the work and build the necessary diversion dam of brUsh and rock." That is $875 was expended, or that much would be required at least, and when it is considered that there are only 90 acres of land under the Mazon ditch which can be irrigated on the reserva- tion, it will be appreciated what a heavy tax per acre has been thus imposed by the late flood. The conditions are very difficult there, and with reference to the construction of permanent works it would cost a large sum of money to put in a permanent dam across a river of that character; I feel quite confident that it would take at least $50,000 to put in the dam and in all probability it would cost at least $30,000 to put in the per- manent heading, making an expenditure of something in the neigh- borhood of $80,000 to put in a good, first-class system, and possibly EXPENDIXXTRES IN THE INTEBIOB DEPAETMENT. 709 it, might take more than that. The area of land being comparatiTely small, only 1,000 acres, or possibly a Uttle more, it would be in my opinion more practicable to simply put in a pumping plant and eleTate the water from the river some 14 feet and avoid the necessity of these expenses — the expenses of the dam and headworks. The Chaibman. If there were no diversion dam in the river, woiald there then be trouble from high water in the river; would it stt^jr within its banks and let the cuMivable land alone ? Mr. Code. I am afraid not. If there were a diversion dam I prer »\Xfm the conditions would not be improved in that respect. The only thing that would eliminate erosion of the lands wouW. be a storage dam at Horseshoe or some other point farther north, to impound these flood waters that do the damage. The Chaibman. We have no facts before us of any Indian who ever lost any of the land on which he was living during the time liiey have been there. Mr. Code. No. I do not know whether that matter was broughlt out by Supt. Coe or not, or whether you asked that question. The Chairman. I can not say that spieoigc question was ^ke.d, but I feel that the weight of the evidence was the other way, that there was no such loss. Mr. Cope, Well, there was a loss of land. The Indians mighifc not have been farming the land, but this illustrates the erosion [indicaitang views]. This is good land [indicating]. You see how the river cuts in and takes it away. Mr. Gbobge. And puts it on the other side ? Mr. Code. No; it apparently just widens the river. Mr. Geobge. But the river has been running since the memory of man. Mr. Code. But in that connection I would hke to state that those fivers in the Southwest are worse than they used to be, due to the fact ih&t the ranges have been overgrazed within the past 20 years or sO;, and the rains are precipitated just as from the roof of a house and they bring down tremendous floods, with aU the sUt and erosion that takes place. I think that approximately a hundred acres have been washea away at McDowell. Mr. Hanna. What would that steam plant that you speak of cost? Mr. Code. I think we could put in the steam plant for $25,000, and for an extra $10,000 or $12,000 we could probably serve the land with water, at an estimated annual maintenance cost, however, of in the neighborhood of $3 an acre a year. Mr. Hanna. For maintenance ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. Just for the steam plant alone? Mr. Code. Just (for the maintenance of the steam plant. Mr. Hensley. How long would that plant last ? .Mr. Code. I believe it would last 15 years. The waters are very good there, and I do not think the boilers would be damaged through their use. Mr. Hensley. You speak of the different classes of land. I would like to inquire as to the values of the lands in the difl'erent classes— A, B, and C. What is the value of the land within the A class ? Mr. Code. It has different values, depending on its location with reference to the towns. I should say on an average probably $75. ns240— No. 17—11- 710' EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBEIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Hensley. Now take class B lands. What, in your judgment, is that land worth ? Mr. Code. On B and C I should say the values are about the same and would average somewhere in the neighborhood of $35 or $40, taking the entire project throughout. Of course some of these lands near the towns or foothills might have a value as high as $150 or may be $200 an acre, especially if so located as to be called orange lands; but the great majority of the lands under the project are simply considered alfalfa lands. Mr. Hensley. Do you not think three dollars an acre is quite a high price for maintenance ? Mr. Code. That was the cost I gave on the Verde River, in case we should pump water by a little steam plant, for the Indians. Mr. Hensley. I believe you did confine it to that. Mr. Code. Of course if they were located under the Salt River project their maintenance cost would be just the same as other main- tenance charges, which would probably average from 75 cents to $1 an acre a year. Mr. Geokge. You estimated it would cost about $80,000 for a permanent dam where they have this temporary dam now Mr. Code. A Uttle farther up stream. Mr. George. But these Indians could be taken care of for $80,000 and kept on the reservation there ? Mr. Code. Well, I would say for $100,000 as an outside figure. Mr. George. Have you made any estimate of what it will cost the Government to take them down to the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Code. Well, it would cost a good deal if the Government was to undertake all the work in the way of fencing and everything of that kind. Mr. George. How much would that cost do you think ? Mr. Code. Well, I should think it would be about an even thing so far as the total expense is concerned between the two projects, with the exception that it would be a safer proposition down below on the Salt River Reservation on account of the character of the Verde River. Mr. George. But you could put in a dam above the present tem- porary dam — this thing that washes away — by expendmg $100,000 for a permanent structure Mr. Code. This included the canal system also Mr. George. Which would give them water on the McDowell Reservation '? Mr. Hanna. That would be $100 an acre Mr. George. Where they desire to stay. Now, then, the Govern- ment is proposing to put them down in the Salt River Reservation and to meet various costs in so doing. What would you say these eosts would be ? Mr. Code. The reclamation cost would be about $45,000. That wO'uld be paid in 10 annual payments. Mr. George. Is that the water cost ? Mr. Code. That would be the cost of the reclamation; yes. Then, in addition to that, it would depend on the extent the Government felt it should go toward purchasing fencing wire and posts and all that. It seemed to me that the Indian himself could build his little distributing ditches, although the Government could help out to some expendittje.es in the inteeioe depaetmen-t. 711 extent in that connection. I did not, of course, have in mind that the Government should build houses. I thought the Indians would be able to do that. They have not very good houses at present. Mr. George. But if they are satisfied with their houses why should they be hustled out of those houses and made to build other houses? Should not the Government give them something for what they have ? . Mr. Code. I would not be m favor of hustling them out from where they now are unless they are wilUng to accept these additional lands. Mr. Geoege. Yes, if they accept the additional land the cost to the Government is going to be just the same, you thmk, as to keep them where they are, where, as shown by the testimony, they want to stay, and where they could stay if the Government would take that same amount of money and put in a permanent dam. Mr. Code. Only one change, Mr. George, and that is that even with a permanent dam and the permanent canal there, that would not affect the erosion, and the Verde River might encroach and take away a large portion of their farming land at any time. Rfr. Geoege. But still they have very valuable water rights which some time, in the course of years, might become very much more valuable, when this horseshoe dam is built. Then they would have first rights in the Verde River. Mr. Code. Yes, their water rights are good on the Verde River now. Mr. Geoege. And they will be vastly better in the future ? Mr. Code. You mean more valuable ? Mr. George. Yes. Mr. Code. Yes; they would become more valuable in time. Mr. George. And so for a hundred thousand dollars the Govern- ment could keep them where they are and their, water rights be appre- ciating in value, whereas the Government proposes to spend this money and take them down to the Salt River, where they lose all their Verde River rights and they will be in no better position in years to -come, so far as the Salt River is concerned ? Mr. Code. I would consider that their rights below, Mr. George, would be a safer proposition for the Indian than they would be above. Not the water rights, but I mean they would be in a position to main- tain and keep their farms below, which I am not so sure they will be able to do up above on the Verde River. Mr. Geoege. It all being predicated upon your belief that this class C land that they are going to get is going to be first-rate land with first- rate water rights ? Mr. Code. Yes. If that was not to be so, of course they should not be changed at all. Mr. Geoege. But under the Kent decision this would be third-rate •water rights ? Mr. Code. I do not beheve it would work out that way. In fact I never would recommend they be moved there at aU in case that was the judge's view. Mr. George. But the judge thinks so, and the judge is the law, is iie not ? p 1 1 r Mr. Code. Yes. But did he not state that a further order of court might not be made in connection with the McDowell water rights ? Mr. George. It might be made, but it has not been made. Mr! Code. As I stated before, when 200 inches additional were -added I felt we were safe in signing up an additional 1,000 or 2,000 712 EXBENDITXJp^S IN THE INTEEIOB DEPARTMENT. Mr. Ge,oe,ge. Thjey are giving away a sure thing for what may be possible? Mr. Copj^. That would be a pretty sure thing; 200 inches of water, in my opim,oQ, would be a pretty sure thing. Mr. George. It is oply problematical, and is it not the busiaess of the Government to make them absolutely certain, and would it not be a better thing for the Goven;inaent to spend $100,000 op the Verde Eiver and make them secure there, make them comfortafjle at the point where they w^nt to stay, rather than to tiy to per^i^ade ^hem to go down to the Salt River, where you say ti^j will jo^ thfiir rights in the Verde River ? Mr. Code. That is, if, will be really a transfer of rights. Mr. Geoege. They vydll lose first-class rights ii^ the Verde River, which river gives more waf,er and, under Government restriction, would be a better supply than they could get by going down to the Salt River, where th^y get third-class rights and where conditions are really only problepiatic^. Mr. PiODE. Mr. George, I never had any idep^ that their water rjghts -•vjrould be sacrificed, and unless they get as good water riahts on jthe S^t ]8.iver Reservation as wfeer.e they npw are they shojijld ri^BJ^in. Mr. George. Your testimony all depends upon the generosity of the court and the future generosity of the cpurt. Mr. Cod?. No; the present generosity of the court. Mr. George. But it is a thir^-flj^s water right, and you do not know precisely what that indicates. Mr. Cppp. That is class C lan,d- P© states plainly that it is third- class land. But he has apnortiongd a certain amount of low fvater to jthe Salt River, which the Indian Sepyice can divert to the McJ)ow|ell lands. They will have the control of the disposition of this liyater, and I felt that the Ip.dians were safe in that. But it seems that Mr. iCoe hss h^d an inforinal confepence with the judge since the decision and that the judge is pr,ep^red to order the McDowell wp,ter turned to the Indians in the event that they go below, saying nothing a^out this 700 inches of water that he has already allotted to the S3.It River Reservation. Mr. George. But it is not fixed in the law. Mr. Code. It should be determined and fixed before they go down. Mr. George. But they have proceeded to go down, and sohjjb of them have agreed to it, and has anything been entered in ^xe agree- ment with them ? Mr. Code. I went into the Salt River Valley a little while ago with the idea of looking further into this subject, and when I found out that there seemed to be quite a disposition on the part of the Jndian^ not to go down to the Salt River Reservation at this time I made up njy mind that there would be no further object in seeing Chief Justice Kent until it had been finally determined, whether or not it was ^he desire of the department and the Indians to accept this land. If it should be so decided then Judge Kent should be asked to give Ws decision, which would fix the rights of these Indians. ^f, Mr. George. But he has not done so. fl Mr. Code. He has not been asked as yet; no. The Chairman. Would you be willing to make an exchange of valuable property for other property based in part on the statement of a judge on a street comer &s to what he would hold in a decree subsequently ? EXPENDlTtJRES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARiMENT. 713 _ Mr. Code. No; I would not unless I had great confidence in the judge. I have gteait confidence' The ekAiEMAN. And also assurance that he wotlld continue to hve and be a judge and would hot die and let somd oihef judge dtode as to that case? You would hot take those chaSnces'? Mr. CODE-. With the knowledge I hav^ of the country, I irfouU t&ke' the chance; yes. I would leave there so quick that you would not; see me on account of my speed. The Chairman. There ^oiild Be nothing but jiist a streak? M^ CbDE. Just a streak; as k cold-blooded btisinesS proposition I felt that the change suggested was good, for th6 Indians. _ Mr. Hanna. But looking at it from a hard-hesided business propo- sition Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. HlTij'iirA. You speak of it costing aibout $100,000 to put hpthat dam on the Verde and the intake, and so on ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Hanna. And you say it will cost about $40,000 on the Salt River ? Mr. Code. About $45,000. Mr. Hanna. That will leave sbmethiiig like $55,000 or $60,000 ? Mr. CoDii. Yes. Mr. Hanna. You do hot mean it t^H cost $55,000 to start 50 ftoiHes oti the' Salt River? Thait would be an average of $1,100' or $1,200 apiece. Where has the Government e-^er ddne that for ahy white ineii ? Mr. George. But it is an exchange for a condition whi6h they have now. Mr. Hanna. But they have already that land to raise their cattlfe oil and get their logs and build their houses. Mr. Gi:oRGE. But they have houses where they are. Mir. HAnna. But they are not very good. I tell you, Mr. George,, it is a good deal a matter of sentiment. I know in my State there is land to be shortly opened Up and instead of the Indians going out there they stay on the old larid. It is a matter of sentiment with them, because their fathers have lived there before them andthey wantto stay there. We tried Our best to get Indians to get out on the new land that the white men had cultivated, but they took their allotments and they tofok that rough larid up there. The Indian, of course, liked his home and that sort of thing, but as a business proposition I do not think we Ought to be governed by sentiment. The Chairman. Are there any questions ? Mr. Hanna. I would like to ask in reference to this dam site up there by Horseshoe. You know that site up there was first taken up by some private corporation ? Mr. Code. The Rio Verde; yes. Mr. Hanna. Have they rights there now, or does that belong to the <3^6vernment ? Mr'. Cod"*:. That belongs to the Government. My understanding is that the Rio Verde Co. lost out everything they had. They did hot do much but build a little tunnel, and I think that was con- structed a good many years ago. The report the chairman read, I believe, was dated 1897. Mr. ITanna. And your understanding is that any rights they had up there have been exhausted ? 714 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. The Salt River land to which they are invited- to move, if I understand it, the expenses for the canals there and the other irrigation expenses would be a reimbursable charge. Mr. Code. I did not so understand it. That is to be met out of, the general fund, Mr. Chairman, which is applicable to that purpose, something like $300,000 a year, out of which we can meet these annual charges for reclamation. The Chairman. Would it ever come back to the Indian? Of course it would be met immediately out of that fund, but would it be a lien upon the land ? Mr. Code. I do not so understand it. The Chairman. Are you sure about that ? Mr. Code. Yes; this general fund is not a reimbursable fund. The Chairman. Are you sure that it is coming from the general fund? Mr. Code. That was my recommendation, and I presume that is the fund the Indian Office would use. That is the only fund I know of that it could utUize for such purposes. The Chairman. I may be wrong, but I am strongly of the impres- sion now that it would be advanced in the first instance out of Gov- ernment funds, but that it would, as in ordinary irrigation projects, attach to the land, become a lien on the land, and that ultimately the Indian would have to reimburse somebody, the Government, for the benefits to his allotment. Mr. Code. Was not that in connection with the expenses of survey- ing lands that the question came up ? The Chairman. 'My impression, as I have said, is that it was with reference to irrigation. Mr. Code. No; all the reports that I have ever made recommended, that the annual reclamation charges were to be made out of this gen- eral Indian irrigation fund, and that is what the office is now paying it out of — that fund. The Chairman. The expenses of the survey were not very great? Mr. Code. No; I do not think they would be very heavy. The Chairman. That was a reimbursable fund ? Mr. Code. That was a reimbursable fund, as I recall it, the irriga- tion end of it. The Chairman. How could we get positive information on that point? Mr. Code. From the Commissioner of Indian Affairs and the Secre- tary of the Interior. The Chairman. Have you read Mr. Valentine's testimony before the committee ? Mr. Code. Yes. The Chairman. Do you recall now whether he gave testimony on that point ? Mr. Code. I do not recall whether he was questioned as to whether that money could be advanced from the general fund or not; but if you will note the letters I have written in connection with the matter, you will see that in every instance I have assumed that these pay- ments would be made out of the general fund. Mr. Hanna. Is this 1300,000 provided every year ? Mr. Code. Yes; and it is applicable— ^ — Mr. Hanna. And that is in the Indian bill ? EXPENDITXTBES IN THE INTERIOE DEPAETMENT. 715; Mr. Code. Yes; that is in the Indian bill. Mr. Hanna. Then if we have the law of last winter, the statute,, we could probably catch that. Mr. George. Well, that general fund I suppose is not reimburs- able! Mr. Code. No. The Chaikman. Let me ask this from the gentleman who would be most likely to know, if there is no objection: Mr. Meritt, have you information on the point as to whether the general fund is reimburs- able in whole or in part ? Mr. Mekitt. As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, a part of the irri- gation appropriation is reimbursable and a part is not. About $300,000 is not reimbursable, and is to be used Tor the benefit of the Indians who have no funds to their credit. The item in the Indian appropriation biU will show that, I think. The Chairman. Passing from that, there is one other point I would hke to ask about. Have you given any attention to the Govern- ment's title to the Salt River lands ? Mr. Code. In the Salt River Reserve ? The Chairman. Yes. Mr. Code. No; I have not. The Chairman. Have you any knowledge whether there are some claims affecting the title, a number of possible law suits with reference to the title to that land on the part of the Indians ? Mr. Code. No, sir; I have always assumed that they had a good clear title to the lands in this country. The ^Chairman, By this country you mean the Salt River Valley ? Mr. Code. Yes; I never heard any question of the title there at all. It is a valuable piece of country, but there are only about 11,000 acres of this reservation that are irrigable. The Chairman. Mr. Code, do you know the historj^ of it with reference to the Indians who occupied it Mr. Code. My knowledge reaches back to 1892, and I might state right here that the Indians used to live along down near the river, and it is only within the past 15 years that thej^ have been located up on this Arizona canal where they received better lands. The Chairman. Well, the Government has shifted those Apache Indians about quite a good deal, has it not, even before 1892 ? Mr. Code. They were changed, as I understand it The Chairman. Do you know whether there are any treaty rights with them ? Mr. Code. On this particular reservation ? The Chairman. Well, in that country generally; not so much in the McDowell Reservation as in the Salt Rivsr Reservation. Mr. Code. I do not beheve they have any rights in the Salt River Reservation, Mr. Chairman. I do not think they have any rights in the Salt River or the Gila River Reservation. Mr. Meritt. May I call attention to the language in the appropria- tion act of March 3, 1911 ? There is an item in that act for u-rigation purposes which reads : For the construction, repair, and maintenance of ditches, reservoirs, and dams, purchase and use of irrigation tools and appliances, water rights, ditches, lands neces- sary for canals, pipe lines, and reservoirs, for Indian reservations and allotments, and for drainage and protection of irrigable lands from damage by floods, three hundred and fourteen tnousand three hundred dollars, to remain available until expended. 716 EXPENDITUEES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. You will see from the laHguage quoted that it has no tet&r&aci^ to being a r&imbursable item, On page 1075, to show you a reimbursable itetti: For extension and maintenance of the irrigation ^stem on lands allotted to Yakima, Indians in Washington, fifteen thousand dollars: Provided, That the amount hereftj* I all moneys heretofore or hereafter to be appropriated f6r this' pfmect I and all moneys heretofore or hereafter to be appropriated f6r this' pfoject s&all be repaid into the Treasury of the United States in accordance with the provision of the act of March first, nineteen hundred and seven. Mr. Hanna. Before we leave this subject I would iiks to mk a auestion. There has been some talk about, if these Indians wetot own in the Salt River and abandoned the use of the Verde River waters to irrigate, that they would lose some water rights there. Who would get those rights ? Mr. Code. No one could use than because the Indians wowld retain the Fort McDowell Reservation. Therefore, those rights could not be used there. The Chairman. Even if settlers located in the Verde Valley subsequently ? Mr. Code. Then the low-water rights would be appropriated by the entire Salt River project; people who would come in on the Verde Valley subsequent to the Indians leaving, of course, would not have a good light. Their right would only be for flood water. No settler could obtain any benefit of the Indians' low- water rights on the Verde River. They would be transferred down into this lower country. Mr. George. By lower country you mean after the confluence ? Mr. Hanna. Then I do not see even if the Indians moved dtown there how they lose anything up at Fort McDowell ? Mr. Code. Of course, in my opinion they have everything to gain. But I may be mistaken. Before the Indians should be located^ however, as stated, I think the chief justice would have to render a further decision. Mr. George. So as to ajudicate those rights absolutely. Mr. Code. Yes. But the Indian Office could not go in and ask the chief justice to make a modification of his decree and not know whether the Indians would accept the land. The Chairman. Come back a minute to Mr, Meritt's statement. Immediately following what you read comes a proviso that you re- ferred to but did not read. Let me read it: Providing, That no part of this appropriation shall be expended on any irrigation system or reclamation project for which specific appropriation is made in this act oft of which public funds are or may be available under any other act of Congress, Now, does this Salt River country come under that proviso ? Was not specific provision made for it, and would not that exclude it from the apphcation of the provision you read ? Mr, Meritt, No; there is no specific appropriation for Salt River and there is a specific appropriation for rima, and the Pima appro- priation is a reimbursable appropriation. The Chairman. I^et me call your attention to Exhibit 3, page 10£' of the hearing, No. 4, to which I called attention a moment ago. Does not that point to a specific appropriation covering this land ? Mr, Meritt. This is an appropriation for the year 1908, and the appropriation I referred to is an appropriation for th« year 1911. Therefore that item would not apply to tnis act here, because this is 1908. expbsditubbs in the interior department. 717 ^The Chairman. Has all the money specifically appropriated for that improvement been expended ? fS4O,0D0 Was originally appro- priated. Has it been expended ? Mr*. Mebitt. No; I don't think so. I think there is possibly $lOOj0OO left. . The Chairman. Then Would not that proviso in the statute which vou read from be suspended,, as it were, until t^e specific appropriatlbtl had been exhausted^the $540,000 ? Mjr. MteBiTT. No; I think not. I think not because that prcMso g&jk "hereafter." MK Sloan. I do not agree with Mr. Meritt's contention. Mr. Hanna. It says hete July 1, 1911, the balance of appfopriation is $134,298.70. The GMaiUman. That is the balance of the $540,000. Mr. Hanna. The balance of the $500,000. The Chairman. I would ask Mr. Sloan, who understands it mUCh better than I do, certainly, to develop the situation &s he sees it. With Mr. Meritt. Mr. Sloan. Mr. Meritt; the entire appropriations of $540,000 provided for originally is reimbursable, is it itot? Mr. MBritt. On the Pihia Reservation. Mr. Sloan. Well, What does that include, if you know ? The Pima Indians have rights upon Salt River, have they not ? Mr. Mekitt. Thoae Pima Indians who go up and take allotments from the Salt River, I think, may be allotted up there. Mr. Sloan. And they come under the provision that is made for the Pima Indians of this $540,000? They are included in that provision, are they not ? Mr. Meritt. I think that appropriation is to develop the Water resources on the Pima Reservation. Mr. Sloan. Well, the Pima Reservation Indians include the Salt River, which belongs to the Pimas as well as the Gila Reservation, does it not ? Mr'. Meritt. This item says for the construction of an irrigation system, necessary for furnishing a water supply for the irrigation of the landgof the Pima Indians on the Gila Indian Reservation a certain sum i^ appropriated. Mr. Sloan. Is that the provision for the $540,000 ? Mr. Meritt. That $540,000 is appropriated in different acts. Mr. Sloan. I know; but the original appropriation is made reim-- burSable and each sum is made available for each year ? Mr. Meritt. Yea. ' Mr. Sloan. And it is all for the benefit of the Pima Indians situated on those reservations; is it not ? Mr. Meritt. It' is for the purpose of irrigation projects on the Gila River Reservation; as I understand it. Mr. Sloan. Do you believe from your knowledge that that is exclu^ sively for the Gila Reseirvation, and not extended to the Indians on the Salt River Reservation ? Mr. Meritt. Yes ; but Mr. Code could better answer that than !• can. Mr. SiiOAN. Well, let us arrive at this' one fact and agree upon that first, and that is the original appropriation of $540,000 is reimbursable?' Mr. Meritt. Yes. 718 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTEEIOB DEPABTMENT. Mr. Sloan. And it is reimbursable out of any available funds, is it not, that the Pima Indians have ? Mr. Meeitt. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Now, it does not make any difference whether it is all made available one year or two years, or extending over a period of ten years, it is all governed by the original appropriation that makes it reimbursable; is that true? Mr. Meeitt. The entire appropriation is reimbursable. Mr. Sloan. Then it would not make any difference if the subsequent appropriation simply named the sum without attaching thereto the condition that it should be reimbursable ; it would be governed by the original act, which made the appropriation of $540,000 ? Mr. Meeitt. Yes, sir. Mr. Hanna. But, Mr. Chairman, that only applies to the Pima Indians or the Gila Reservation. That has nothing to do with the Salt River Reservation. The Chaieman. The Salt River Reservation is on the Pima Indian land. Mr. Hanna. I do not understand that it covers this $540,000. I would like to ask Mr. Code as to that. Mr. Code. That appropriation was for the GUa River Indian Reservation, and it is my understandiag that that is where that money was to be expended, and the Salt River Reservation was an entirely separate matter as far as this particular appropriation is concerned, and with that idea in view the Indian Service is paying for the reclamation charges on lands in this vicinity [iadicatmg on map] on the Salt River Reservation out of this general nonreim- bursable fund. The Chaieman. Does not the extract from the act which I read, marked "Exhibit No. 3," specifically cover this Salt River country about which we are talking ? [Reading :] That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, use such part of the $300,000 heretofore appropriated for an irrigation system for the Pima Indians in the payment of such Indians' proportionate part of the construction of the Salt River project, and such funds may be transferred to the reclamation fund, etc.? Mr. Code. I do not think that that particular appropriation would have any bearing on the question. That $540,000 was for the Gila River Indian Reservation and as I means of acquiring water for that reservation. We simply — when I say we, I mean the department — entered into a contract with the water users' association of the Salt River Valley to furnish power to this Gila River pumping plant, and; that was simply an advance payment on the power that was to be utilized in elevating the water on this particular reservation for which the $540,000 was appropriated. The Salt River Reservation, as I understand, has nothing to do with the $540,000, and the depart- ment has evidently been taking the same view, because it has Deen paying the bills out of the nonreimbursable fund. The Chaieman. Who would have authoritative knowledge on this , point, as to whether expenditures on the Salt River Reservation are reimbursable or not by the McDowell Indians if they should move there ? Mr. Code. Well, I think Mr. Merritt could give the committee all the information on that. EXPENDITTJBBS IN THE INTEEIOK DEPABTMENT. 719- The Chairman. The information he has given us seems to me to be far from clear up to this time; but I would suggest to him now^ that if he can he prepare for us a statement, or prepare himself to give us a statement, clarifying that situation. Mr. Meritt. Mr. Chairman, I desire to submit the following state- ment regarding the availability of the nonreimbursable irrigation appropriation contained in the Indian appropriation act of March 3^ 1911 (36 Stat. L., 1059), for the payment of the reclamation charges on the 1,000 acres of land to be signed up on the Salt River Eeserva- tion for the purpose of making allotments of said irrigable lands to the Camp McDowell Indians. The item in the act referred to reads: For the construction, repair, and maintenance of ditches, reservoirs, and dams, pvirchase and use of irrigation tools and appliances, water rights, ditches, lands neces- sary for canals, pipe lines, and reservoirs for Indian reservations and allotments, and for drainage and protection of irrigable lands from damage by floods, three hundred and fourteen thousand three hundred dollars, to remain available until expended: Provided, That no part of this appropriation shall be expended on any irrigation system or reclamation project for which specific appropriation is made in this act or for which public funds are or may be available under any other act of Congress. "" The attention of the committee has been invited to the following item contained in the act of March 1, 1907 (34 Stat. L., 1022): That the Secretary of the Interior may, in his discretion, use such part of the three- hundred thousand dollars heretofore appropriated for an irrigation system for the Pima Indians in the payment of such Indians' proportionate part of the construction of the Salt Eiver project, and such funds may be transferred to the reclamation fund, to be expended by that service in accordance with its rules and regulations; the Indians to receive a credit upon the reclamation charge assessed against their lands under the Salt River project for the amount so transferred. It is contended that by reason of the provision in the Indian appro- priation act of March 3, 1911 (supra), which reads — Provided, That no part of this appropriation shall be expended on any irrigation system or reclajnation project for which specific appropriation is made in this act or for which public funds are or may be available under any other act of Congress— and the item quoted from the act of March I, 1907, that no part of the nonreimbursable appropriation of $314,300 contained in the act of March 3, 1911, is available to pay the reclamation charges on the 1,000 acres on the Salt River Reservation to be signed up for the purpose of allotting thereon the Camp McDowell Indians. This contention is clearly not in accordance with the law or the facts in the case. In the first place it will be observed that the hrigation appropriations for the Pima Indians are for the purpose of constructing an irrigation system on the Gila River Indian Reser- vation and not on the Salt River Reservarion. It is true that the act of March 1, 1907, authorized the Secretary of the Interior, m his discretion, to "use such part of the $300,000 heretofore appropriated for an irrigation system for the Pima Indians m the payment of_such Indians' proportionate part of the construction of the Salt River project "but this appropriation of $300,000 was entirely expended prior to July 1, 1911, when the nonreimbursable appropriation con- tained m the act of March 3, 1911 (supra), became available, and which is intended to be used for the purpose of paymg the water charges on the land set aside on the Salt River Reservation for the Camp McDowell Indians. Under no circumstances, however, would the $300,000 appropria- tion, even if it were not now expended, be available for purchasmg 720 EXPENDITURES IN THE INTBEIOK CEPAETMliNT. a wMer right for the Gamp McBo'virell Indians,- because tHe acts herein referred to limit its expenditure for the benefit bi tfiie PiniS Indians. The following shows the reinibursabre appropriaition^ that hit^ been made by Congress for an irrigation systdm oBt the Gila Ei-Ver Reservation: Date of act of Mar. 3, 1905 (33 Stat, t., 1081) ^6/00^' UWc (tf act of Jtoe 21, 1906 (34 Stat L., S(SS> 25O,'O00 Date of act of Apr. 4, 1910 (36 Stat. L., 269)......... 79,080 Date of act of Mar. 3, 19ll (36 Stat. L., 1062)................... 125,000 Total 560', 000 The following shows the amounts expended to June 30, 1910, and 1911,' and the balance available for Pima imgation on July 1, 1911: Expenditures to June 30, 1910 $255,5S9.78 Expenditure^ to July 1, 1911, 363i 461. 30 Balance available for expeiiditure on July 1, 1911 136, 518. 70 It will be seen fi*om the' foregoing figures that oH' July 1, WTl, all' of the $'300,000 appropriation contained in the acts of March 3^, 1905, and June 21, 1906, had been e^xpended and practically all of tile apppo^ priation contained in the act of April 4, 1910, for the irrigation project for the Pima Indians had also been expended* Certainly the money appropriated by Congress for the purbose df constructing an irrigation system for the Pima Indians oh tn& Gild! River Indian Reservation would hot b6 available fol* purchasing a water right for lands purposed to be allotted to the Camp McDowell Indians on the Salt River Reservation. ' There is no specific appropriation for irrigation purposes for the Camp McDowell Indians. Therefore the only available appropriation out of which water rights may be purchased for these Indians who have ho funds to their credit is the nonreimbursable irrigaition iteM contained in the act of March 3, 1911 (supra). Mr. Sloan. Mr. Code, you stated that the 200 inches of additiohal Water that had been granted by Jut^e Kent on the Salt River Rteer- vation would be available for the McDowells who would remove there ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. Have you read the decree with reference to that specific part? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. Now, do you understand that that 200 inches is addi- tional to the 500 inches that was made available only for the lands within township" 2 north and range 5 east ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir; that apparently was the reading of the law. Mr. Sloan. Now, then, that could not be transferred to' other lands without a specific order of the court, could it ? Mr. Code. It probably would require a specific order of the court, although, Mr. Sloan, so far as I know, the court pays no attention to where the Indian Service turns the water after it is turned out of th« main canal. The IndianService sirnply proratesit among the Indians. Mr. Sloan. Then if the Indian officials have the right to disregard the decree, they would be violating the principles upon' which the water rests ? Mr. Code. That is true, Mr. Sloan. EXPENDITURES IN THE IKTERIOB DEPAKTMENT. 721 Mr. Sloan. Wojiia tfe^t be subijiitting the Indians' right to the PJtr#ry ^..ction ^f ;the Indian pfficiajs w^o wpuld foe permitted to iisregard either the appropriated water rights or the decree of i]\6 Mr. Cop??. Nft,it '(vould not unless the decree of the Aoyrt could be ;^jipdifi.ed. Mr. ^I.qAlf. Then, what hen^efit of protgctiop wo»J4 the Jn4iaiis have in obtaining a decree or appropriation as to then;' water rights a§ tp the 700 inches d^iCireed to specific lands if the Indian officials have the authority to disregard the appropriation of that 700 jj;iclies as to those specific l^c^ pr the decree applying it to thogp specifio lauds ? Mf. Gqre. l^om; Jjpt tl^p court coul4 modify that decree. Wjf. SiWAi^. Still you say that the Jn4iq.n officials cpyl4 divei^t it to the different parts of the reaerviation from the canal, as tjbey saw fit? }Sj:. Code. Th^t is my understanding, that the court would not not interfere oh an Indian reservation as they wouljd in respect to lands occupied by w^hite inen. Mr. Sloan. Then the Indian comes back to whatever he m^,y have, l^in^ subject tp the arbitrary action pf the Ipdi^p officials, and he can hot depend upon the decree of the court or hjs rights as to the appropriation of the water ? 'W. Code, a? I have stated foefppe, Mr. Sloan, your contention is correct, that the Indians would be at the mercy of the superintendent wjt}^ 5ef£!i:ep.ce to the apportionment of this water. We have not found it practical to recognize this particular doctriw^P^tJiat is, the doctrine pf prior appropriation among the Indians — and ordinarily when the appropriations are made we endeavor to call them all prior rjgji^ Np. 1. That has been the history at various points where water )^^s open takep out for the Indians. 4-n Indian would never feel that 1^ sv^as being treated fairly and it would be very hard for him to under- stand that particular doctrine. Now, this 200 inches additional that tjfe judge had apportioned these lands !lV!b-. Sloan. Township No. 2, range 5 ? Mr. Code. Yes. [Continuing.] Was in accordance with the ^atement he made unofficially that additional waters would be ap- portioned there sufficient to care for the needs of the McDowell In- dians, should they be moved down, and I will admit that decree iFOuld have to be modified. As I said, it was my intention to take that up and see that it was modified, if possible, provided, of course, that the Indians desired to come down, so there would be no misun- derstanding. I have stated in all my reports that this amount of water would be necessary and would be subsequently decreed to these lands. I went into the valley recently, but hearing of the attitude of the Indians I thought it best to make no further suggestion or take the matter up again with Chief Justice Kent until it was determined whether these Indians wanted to leave their reservation and accept farming lands or whether they preferred to have their lands remain as at present. , . , it,-, ' Hr. Sloan. You stated that the 200 mches additional was m con- templation of the removal of the McDowells to the Salt Eiver Reser- ■j^^itioji and was for their benefit ? Mr. Code. It was presumed 722 EXPENDITTJBES IN THE INTEKIOE DEPAETMENT. Mr. Sloan. Do you know, or is that a presumption ? Mr. Code. That was a presumption based upon what the chief justice stated. Mr. Sloan. And you presumed from what you learned from the judge and other parties connected with this litigation that the 200 mches additional here provided for was to be in consideration of the McDowell Indians removing to the Salt River Reservation and having the use of that ? Mr. Code. I so stated in one of my letters. That was my under- standing. Mr. Sloan. And you believe that is a fact now? Mr. Code. I am not so sure from the reading of the decision Mr. Sloan. From the knowledge you have outside the decision and from your consultation with the judge, the presumption you had at that time, that that was the purpose of it. Mr. Code. That was the purpose Mr. Sloan. Then the Indians originally had 500 inches of water ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. And the addition is only 200 inches ? Mr. Code. That is all. Mr. Sloan. The McDoweU Indians themselves have 390 inches on the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Code. Yes. Mr. Sloan. What would become of the other 190 inches under that presunaption 1 Mr. Code. Well, Mr. Sloan, on a strict interpretation of the law the court would not have given them 390 inches. Mr. Sloan. But the court has said that was what they were using and that was what they would be entitled to. Mr. Code. They would only be allowed such water as was sufficient for the irrigation of the lands in the Salt River Valley up to the extent of the 1,000 acres, or 1,300 acres, if it should be decided to give them a little additional land. Mr. Sloan. Now, then, the McDowell Indians have original water rights on the McDowell Reservation ? Mr. Code. Yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. And if they removed to the Salt River Reservation their water rights would cost them $45 an acre ? Mr. Code. They would. Mr. Sloan. What becomes of their original rights on the McDoweU Reservation ? Mr. Code. Their original water rights would be transferred. If not, they should stay where they are. Mr. Sloan. If they are transferred, then why should they be paying the $45 an acre for water rights ? Mr. Code. Because it would cost probably $65, or possibly as high as $100 an acre to make those water rights any good — that is, to make them permanent on the McDowell Reservation. Mr. Sloan. But that is not what we are discussing now. We are discussing the water rights of the Salt River Reservation. If they have 390 inches, and that is to be transferred, and they do remove, still they will have about $45 an acre, or more, for that water. What is the effect of the transfer if they have to buy water rights for the new lands ? EXPENDITXTBES IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT. 723 ' Mr. Code. Well, Mr. Sloan, when they buy a water right in this connection they are paying for all these advantages that are illus- trated on this map. It costs a great deal of money to build dams, head gates, and all other features. Of course they would have to pay for that, and it would cost about 145 an acre in ten annual install- ments. That is, the Government should pay it; I do not mean that the Apaches should pay the reclamation charges. Mr. Sloan. But then the water users' association is getting the contribution if there are 390 inches of water, is it not? Mr. Code. It comes into the valley; yes, sir. Mr. Sloan. You mean to say that for putting that water on the land it is going to cost them as much as it will cost anybody else that has no water rights at all; is that the effect of it? Mr. Code. That is the effect. Everybody in the vaUey must pay for the improvements. Even though the irrigator has water in the river he has not means to get his water on to the land. Mr. Sloan. It is reimbursable anyway; it is chargeable up to ■somebody? Mr. Code. It would be chargeable to the Government, I think, 'very properly, if he is asked to take this additional land. Mr. Sloan. And under the general provision applying to the use of such moneys, if there was no available funds for the McDowell Indians it would be chargeable to them, would it not ? Mr. Code. I do not thmk so. It should not be in this case. ' Mr. Sloan. Well, what is there particularly about this case why it should not be? Mr. Code. The Government would have to expend a certain amount of money in building ditches at McDowell — a good deal more than would have to be expended to make their water rights sure under the Salt Kiver Valley system. The Chairman. Under what system ? Mr. CoD-E. The Salt River Valley project. The Government may either have to pay for the construction of an expensive systeni at McDowell or pay for the reclamation costs down under the project. This is the cheaper, so far as the reclamation goes, under the Salt River project. Mr. Sloan. Going back to the McDowell Reservation, would a heading and dam at the north hne or above it furnish a high-hne -