108 .^i: ®0tMl IKwivetsiitg pilratg THE GIFT OF Pry:^jhhi«n Vv".!. WX^^ /\.^nfeSjV ,, ^|viMh3 9724 THE LIBRARY OF THE NEW YORK STATE SCHOOL m INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR RELATIONS AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924078655945 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o A. 1905 THE EOYAL OOMMISSIOI^^ REPORT OF COMMISSIONER Issued by tlie Department of Labour, Canada PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT OTTAWA FEINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TOrrHBjKING'SIMOST EXCELLENT MAJESTY [1905— No. 36c.J 1905 kl-'jk'ill 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o A. 1905 OOI^^TEIsrTS PAQS Extract from Order in Council re Appointment of Commissioner. . 5 Commission 1 Letter transmitting Eeport of Commissioner 9 Eeport of Commissioner ■ 11 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c A. 1905 ORDER RE APPOINTMEE^T OF COMMISSION Privy Council, Canada. Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council, approved hy the Governor General on April 11, 1905. On a report, dated April 5, 1905, from the Minister of Labour, representing that complaint has been made to the effect that aliens, not being iona fide residents of Canada, have been and are being employed by the Pere Marquette Railway Company upon that portion of the company's lines operating in Canada, to the exclusion of Canadian citizens and British subjects, and that for some time past the said company lias been pursuing a policy of discharging Canadians and filling their positions by aliens imported to Canada in violation of the provisions of the Alien Labour Law. The Minister further represents that it is expedient to ascertain whether, and if hSO, to what extent, the said complaint is well founded, and for that purpose that an inquiry be made to ascertain the name, nationality, nature and time of employment, remuneration and actual bona fide residence at the time of employment of the said alleged aliens, and also, that an inquiry be had as to the names of all Canadian or bona fide residents of Canada who have been in the employ of the Pere Marquette Eailway Company in Canada, and who have been discharged or have left the com- pany's employ on account of such importation of aliens. The Minister recommends that it be referred to His Honour John Winchester, Senior Judge of the County Court of the County of York, as Commissioner, under the provisions of Chapter 114, Revised Statutes of Canada, intituled: 'An Act -respecting Public Inquiries,' to hold and conduct such inquiries, with all the powers conferred upon commissioners by the said Act ; also, that Mr. Albert O. Jeffery, K.C., be appointed counsel to represent the Government of Canada before the said Commission. The Minister further recommends that the said Commissioner report his findings to the Minister of Labour with all possible despatch. The Committee submit the same for approval. (Signed) JOHN J. McGEE, Clerh of the Privy Council 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c A. 1905 COMMISSION. ,„ _ . CANADA. (Sgd.) GEEY. [L.S.] (Sgd.) E. L. Newcombe, Deputy of the Minister of Justice, Canada. Edward tte Seventh, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britairh and Ireland, and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of: the Faith, Emperor of India, To all whom these presents shall come, or whom the same mey in anywise concern — Greeting : Whereas in and by an Order of Our Governor General in Council bearing date th- seventh day of April, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and five» provision has been made for an investigation by our Commissioner therein and herein- after named with respect to ceo-tain matters therein mentioned as upon reference to the said Order in Council, a copy of which is hereto annexed, will more fuUy at large appear. Now Know Ye that by and with the advice of our Privy Council for Canada, We do by these presents nominate, constitute and appoint His Honour John Winchester, Judge of the County Court of the County of York, in the Province of Ontario, to be our Commissioner to conduct such inquiry. To HAVE, HOLD, EXERCISE AND ENJOY the Said officc, place and trust unto the said John Winchester, together with the rights, powers, privileges and emoluments unto the said office, place and trust, of right and by law appertaining during pleasure. And we do hereby, under the authority of the Revised Statute respecting in- quiries concerning public matters, confer upon our said Commissioner the power of summoning before him any witnesses and of requiring them to give evidence on oath,, orally or in writing, or on solemn affirmation if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and to produce such documents and things as our said Commissioner shall deem requisite to the full investigation of the matters into which he is hereby appointed to examine. And we do hereby require and direct our said Commissioner to report to our Minister of Labour the result of his investigation, with the evidence taken before him,, and any opinion he may see fit to express thereon. In testimony whereof. We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed. — Witness: Our Right Trusty and Right Well-Beloved Cousin, the Right Honourable Sir Albert Henry George, Earl Grey, Viscount Howick, Baron Grey of Howick, in the County of Northumberland, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, and a Baronet; Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., &c.. Governor General of Canada. At Our Government House, in. Our City of Ottawa, this eleventh day of April, in the year of Our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and five, and in the fifth year of Our Reign. By Command, (Sgd) P. PELLETIER, For Under Secretary of State.. 1 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o A. 1905 LETTEE TEAlSrSMITTING EEPOET OE OOMMISSIONEE. Toronto, May 16, 1905. To the Honourable Sir William Mulock, K.O.M.G., M.P., Minister of Labour, Ottawa. Sm, — I have the honour to transmit to you the result of my investigation as Special Commissioner appointed in the matter of the allgged employment of aliens by the Pere Marquette Eailway Company in Canada, together with the evidence taken before me. I have the honour to be. Sir, Tour obedient servant, (Sgd) JNO. WnSTCHESTEE, Commissioner. 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o A. 1905 REPORT OF COMMISSIONER Toronto, May 16, 1905. To the Honourable Sir William Mulock, KO.M.G., M.P., Minister of Labour, Ottawa. Sir, — I have the honour to report that on April 21, 1904, I received the Eoyal Commistion issued to me bearing date April 11, 1904, authorizing me to ascertain the name, nationality, nature and time of employment, remuneration, and actual hona fide residence at the time of employment of alleged aliens employed by the Pere Mar- quette Eailvray Company upon that portion of the company's lines operated in Can- ada, and also the names of all Canadians or iona fide residents of Canada who have bren in the employ of the Pere Marquette Eailway Company in Canada, and who have been discharged, or have left the company's employ on account of such importa- tion of aliens. I immediately arranged to enter upon the inquiry, and appointed Monday, the 24th day of April, 1904, at 12 o'clock noon, at the Court House, in the City of London, Ontario, for the commencement of such inquiry, and forwarded the following notice for publication to the Advertiser and Free Press, London, Ontario, with instructions to have the same inserted in the first issue of the newspaper after receiving the same : — 'As Commissioner appointed by the Government of Canada to inquire into the names, nationality, nature and time of employment, remuneration and actual iona ■ fide residence at the time of employment of alleged aliens employed by the Pere Mar- quette Railway Company on their lines operated in Canada, and also as to the names of all Canadians or hona fide residents of Canada who have been in the employ of the said company in Canada, and who have been discharged or have left the company's service on account of such employment of aliens, I hereby give notice that on Monday, the 24th day of April, 1905, at 12 o'clock noon, at the Court House, in the City of London, I will commence such inquiry, and continue the same at the said city and at the City of St. Thomas, and other places, as may be announced. ' Information from any person in a position to give testimony in regard to the matter of inquiry is respectfully invited. 'All communications should be directed to me in care of Albert O. Jeffery, Esq., K.C., London, Ont. John Winchester, Gommissioner. ' Toronto, April 21, 1905.' At the hour appointed, I opened the inquiry in London, atccompanied by Mr. A. O. Jeffery, K.C., counsel for the government, who attended during the whole of the in- quiry. Mr. Edgar Britton, the district passenger agent of the Pere Marquette Railway Company at London, was examined, and I then 'adjourned the inquiry until the next morning, to be continued at the Court House in the City of St. Thomas, I having 11 12 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 previously forwarded subpoenas to the various officials of the Pere Marquett.i Kailway Company in St. Thomas, and other witnesses that I desired to examine there. Pursuant to the said adjournment, I resumed the inquiry at the Court House, St. Thomas, at 10 a.m., but at the request of Mr. Pyeatt, the divisional superintendent of the Pere Marquette Eailway Company in Canada, I adjourned same until two o'clock in the afternoon to enable Mr. Cobum, counsel for the Pere Marquette Eailway Company, to attend. At two o'clock in the afternoon, Mr. Coburn had not arrived, I waited until three p.m., when, at Mr. Pyeatt's request", Mr. Cobum still not having arrived, I entered upon the inquiry, examining the following witnesses that afternoon, namely : John Samuel Pyeatt, divisional superintendent; Everett E. Cain, train master; James E. Gilhula, chief despatcher; Owen C. Leseur, civil engineer; George M. Osborne, instrument man; Stewart Austin, shop foreman at Walkerville; Benjamin Knight, formerly despatcher; John W. O'Laughlin, steno- grapher, and Eowland John Foreman, chief clerk to Mr. Pyeatt. Mr. Cobum was present during the examination of these witnesses other than Mr. Pyeatt and Mr. Cain. On April 26 the following witnesses were examined by me, namely : Owen McKay, formerly civil engineer; William W. Meadows, formerly instrument man; Miss Amy McLean and Miss Edna Steel, formerly stenographers of the company ; and E. E. Tuller, Charles Franklin Shoemaker, Frederick Arnum, Edwin J. McMillan, Owen Hales, John McManamy, Werner C. Groening, Walter Henry Cole, William L. Hunker, A. J. Dawdy, George Penney, Charles Welch, Edward Allen, all employees in the service of the railway company at the present time; and at the request of Mr. Coburn, the following witnesses were examined on behalf of the company : Edward F. McCarthy, James L. Eberts, Trewin A. Gilbert, Eobert Wardell, William Cham- berlain, George Gubb, employees in the service of the company, and also at Mr. Cobum's request Mr. Pyeatt and Mr. Cain were recalled and examined by him. On the following morning, April 27, I examined William WooUatt, the former superin- tendent in Canada, and recalled Mr. Cain, but ascertaining that he left that morning to attend some business in London, I followed him to that city, and examined hftn in the Pere Marquette office in London. Mr. Coburn did not attend the inquiry on April 2Y, although he was present when we adjourned the previous day, until April 27, and was aware the inquiry was to be proceeded with on that day; he, however, stated- that he would be unable to be present, but did not ask for any adjournment of the in- quiry. I also examined Mr. W. A. Kirkpatrick in Toronto on April 30, and produced him for cross-examination on May 15, instant, when Mr. E. H. C. Cassels attended as counsel on behalf of the railway company. On the said May 15, I also examined Mr. Keith E. Cameron, formerly train master of the Pere Marquette, and Mr. L. E. Tillson, formerly agent at Chatham. During the examination of all the above wit- nesses, with the exception of Mr. Britton, counsel appeared on behalf of the P^re Marquette Eailway Company and took part in the examination of the same, except as above mentiojied. Condition of the Railway in Canada Subsequent to Acquirement of Same by the Pere Marquette Railway Company. The evidence shows that the Pere Marquette Eailway Company obtained control over the following Canadian Eailways, namely: The Lake Erie and Detroit River ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 13 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o Eailway, the Erie and Huron, and the London and Port Stanley Eailways, and sub- sequenUy obtained running powers over the Michigan Central from St. Thomas to the Niagara frontier. These railways were then called the Buffalo division of the Peve Marquette Eailway system. At the time of obtaining such control, namely, in Jairaary, 1902, Mr. Woollatt was manager of the system in Canada, Mr. Keith E. Cameron, train master ; Mr. Owen McKay, civil engineer ; Stewart Austia, master mechanic; Pred. Arnum, and Messrs. Black and Kirkpatrick, train despatchers, with Benjamin Knight as relieving despatcher. The headquarters of the system was at Walkerville. The condition of the road at that time was good, having sufficient power and facilities to handle its local business. Subsequent to the Pere Marquette taking control, a through business was instituted, and this with its local business required greater power and more facilities than the company were able to supply the division with. The shops were insufficient to take care of the power, and there was more business than the power or the facilities of the road would accommodate. There were not sufficient sidings nor sufficient water supply. Mr. Woollatt, who was appointed superintendent of the division, which was then for the first time called the Buffalo division, applied to the management of the railway company for assistance from time to time. The needed help was not forthcoming, and in consequence of »the lack of power and water, and want of other facilities the business became congested, and the trains were not managed with proper expedition. Mr. Woollatt in his examination puts it in this way : ' The whole trouble was, the through business was put onto us to handle before we had proper facilities for the handling of it. I think that condi- tion existed on the entire Pere Marquette system, as much on the other side as this, for when I asked for power to move the business, the general superintendent informed me that they were just as hard up for power on the other side as they were on thift.' ' You did everything you could, in order to get the power ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you apply more than once ? — A. Yes, frequently, and for sidings, passing tracks, as far back as, well, early in 1902. Q. And continuously up to the time you left the service ? — A. Yes, sir, went over the road with the former superintendent, Mr. A. M. Smith, laying out where the sid- ings should be, but they were not forthcoming. Q. What was the reason for that ?^A. I do not know, that would be with the management. Q. You had no control over that ? — A. No, I could not spend money till they gave it to me to spend. Q. Were there any complaints to you about the maimer in which the ser- vice was being carried on by the management ? — A. No, sir, except that because of the lack of power we would be asked why we did not move certain business. Q. Your answer was forthcoming ? — A. That we required the power to move it. Q. And they did not come to your assistance ? — A. They could not furnish it, they had not it. Q. I understand this want of power was a very distracting thing to yourself? — A. It wasi, it caused my nerves to give out, and I had to resign on that account, nervous prostration the vice-president and general manager put it in the manner of my taking the railroad to bed with me. Q. I suppose you did ? — A. A good many nights I did not sleep because of it. Q. When was it you put in your resignation ? — A. Early in November of last year. Q. What led up to that ? — A. The doctor's advice that I must do one of two things, either quit worrying or quit railroading. 14 REPORT OF ROYAL OOMMISSIOW 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Had not the management come to your relief up to that time ? — A. As far as they were ahle to, but not sufficiently. Q. You were quite able with the facilities you had to attend to the local traffic ? — A. Quite so. Q. But with their taking charge and connecting with their own traffic in the United States and making it a through traffic, the facilities were not equal to the demand ? — ^A. That is it, sir ; they sent over some 15 large engines which were not sufficient to handle the through business. Q. Had you a sufficient number of employees under you to handle the business ? — A. Yes, sir, that is the local business. Q. Yes ?— A. Quite so. Q. And the through business ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive any notification that your services would not be required fur- ther ? — A. No, I was advised by my general superintendent to take a long rest, and when I was fit to come back to railroading they would have a position for me. Q. When did he advise you to do that ? — A. In November, when I talked to him about my resigning. Q. Did you follow his advice ? — ^A. I have taken a good long rest. Q. Then who succeeded you ?— A. Mr. Pyeatt. Q. When ? — A. I think the circular appointing Mr. Pyeatt was on November 28. Q. Of, course they have no such cause for congestion since the new management took place ? — A. I believe they were just as badly congested last fall. Q. Not since the first of December ? — A. No, the beet business is over before that, the first of January. Q. Where could they (cars of beets) be stored? — A. At Dresden, where there was a factory, and at Wallaceburg, where there was a factory, and some at other sidings, waiting movement, probably near 150 or 200 cars. Q. Of course that was owing to the want of power ? — A. Yes, the want of power to move it. That is really the prime reason? — A. That is the kernel.' Mr. McKay, the civil engineer, said : — ' Q. Could you give me the condition of the railway at the time the Pere Marquette took it over ? — A. It was in good condition for local business, it was not equipped for trunk line. •' Q. But good for local business ? — A. Yes. 'Q. Is there any difference in the equipment for local and for trunk line? — A. There is, it required heavier rails for trunk-line business, heavier engines and longer sidings and larger tanks, more of them. ' Q. How about the power, was the power sufficient at that time ? — A. The power was fairly good for local business at the time the Pere Marquette had taken over the road. ' Q. I was told yesterday, I haye no doubt it is perfectly true, that last Decem- ber the power was in pretty bad condition ? — A. Yes. ' Q. You were on the road at that time ? — ^A. Yes. ' Q. What caused the bad condition of the power ? — A. Well, so far as my observa- tion went, it was due to lack of sufficient engines to do the local work and through business, and they did not have at Walkerville the facilities for repairing the engines as fast as they were out of repair. The engines were taken into the shop at Walker- ville and kept too long, and the engines that they had in service, a large number had been broken down because they were kept too long in the work, and they did not have other engines to take theij: places; the result was they did not have sufficient power to move their trains, both local and through. ' Q. Whose fault was that ? — A. That would be the head management, as far as I could see. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 15 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c ' Q. Was that the fault of the general manager or superintendent of that division? — A. It was not the fault of the superintendent, because he had urged this matter so far as be had informed me, and so far as I know he had continually urged them on the other side, and called their attention to the lack of power to give efficient service. ' Q. It was not supplied at his request ? — A. No. ' Q. Tou consider that was the real reason for the bad condition of the power when Mr. Pyeatt took charge ? — A. Yes.' Mr. Cameron, in his evidence as to the condition of the road, stated as follows : — ' Q. What was the condition of the road at that time ? — A. It was verji bad. ' Q. Why ? — ^A. Well, we were experiencing all kinds of trouble for the lack of motive power. What motive power we did have in the service was not of much use to us. We had been very short of water for some time ; in fact, we were running water trains from St. Thomas to Button 'filling up the tank night and day. Our sidings were not long enough for the crossing of through freight trains. The small shops that the railway company had at Walkerville, which were built to accommodate five or six engines, were required to attend to the work of twenty-five and thirty and thirty-five engines, and they were simply unable to repair engines in anything like the time that they should in order to put them in good service. At that time a general workshop was being built at St. Thomas, but it was of course no use to us; it was only in con- struction. ' Q. And there was no work going on inside of it 1 — A. No work going on inside at all. We were very badly handicapped ; at times that an engine required anything like a general repair, instead of holding that power at St. Thomas, it was necessary to send it 127 miles west to Walkerville. There was a day lost, and a day lost bring- ing the power back to St. Thomas after it was put in shape for service. ' Q. Mr. Pyeatt says in his evidence that at the time when he took control over the road, he found it in a very had condition indeed, and also that the trains were running very slow; can you account for that ? — A. Trains were running slow on account of a great lack of power, and no water; that was the reason that trains were in awful bad shape. I never saw trains in such a shape myself until that time. Our trains were coming to water tanks, and perhaps two or three or four trains would get bunched together, when th« second man would be unable to get water, and he would simply have to pull his fire, and, using a railroad phrase, he would " die " on the main line. ' Q. The engine would go out of business ? — ^A. Go out of business. They would have to pull the fire on account of their being no water. ' Q. What efEorts did you make to remedy all this ? — A. So far as the water question was concerned, we hauled water from St. Thomas to Button night and day — had done that for over a month. ' Q. Why could you not have tanks built upon the difi^erent lines at different places ? — A. We had tanks. I might say that between Eidgetown and St. Thomas we had two tanks, one at Eidgetown, and one at Button, one at St. Thomas also; but one tank between the two points, which is 43 miles. There should have been another tank. ' Q. Why was it not there ? — A. I know that Mr. WooUatt, when he was superin- tendent, was after the Betroit people dozens of times for water tanks, but they were never forthcoming. ' Q. What about the power ; why did you nt)t get better and new power ? — A. I know that Mr. Woollatt was after power as hard as he was after water. He was after power for days, but he never got it; and tracks and sidings. Mr. Woollatt was after sidings and he never got them, could not get them. ' Q. What Mr. Pyeatt said was that the trains were very late, running from thirty, forty and even fifty hours on a road llY and 27 miles long; is that correct ? Bid it take that length of time to run that length of road ?— A. At this time I don't recol- 16 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 lect just how many hours it took some of the trains to run, but I rather fancy that Mr. Pyeatt in mentioning thirty, and forty and fifty hours must refer to some trains that would be standing on the main line dead, as I mentioned a short time ago, for the want of water — remaining there for hours before we would get another engine to them. We were so situated that when an engine died on the main line with a tr^in, we would have to wait perhaps ten, twelve, fifteen and twenty hours before we could get a second engine to go after that train. ' Q. And that was the cause of the delay ? — A. That was the cause of numbers of delays, waiting for engines.' Mr. Pyeatt, in his evidence, stated that when he took possession on December 1, 1904, the condition might be considered rather poor. ' Q. A poor system, in what respects ? — A. The power was in poor condition, that was the worst fault. ' Q. What pywer ? — A. The locomotives. ' Q In what way was that in poor condition ? — A. It was just run down and needed repairs. ' Q. In what condition were the other parts ? — A. I should say not satisfactory. ' Q. ]n what respects ? — A. The trains were badly delayed, running very late, very long time on the road, and what caused that might create a difference of opinion. I do not know just what did contribute to all of it. ' Q. After you took possession, I suppose you requested better facilities than what the former superintendent had, and better rolling stock,, from the management ? — A. I recommended' some additional side tracks, which were put in, that I considered necessary. ' Q. And also new engines, you made that recommendation ? — A. That is a sort of chronic recommendation of a superintendent to recommend new engines. ' Q. What did you ask for with reference to the running facilities of the road, can you tell me ? — A. In a short time after I came here, I asked for two or three addi- tional engines from the other side, they were not new engines. ' Q. You have obtained six new engines since then ? — A. Yes, sir, we have ob- tained six new engines very lately. ' Q. That is within the last few months ? — A. Within the last forty days. ' Q. And you received other engines previous to that ? — A. We received two en- gines at first and two a little later. ' Q. And the work was done more expeditiously in consequence of that ? — A. In consequence of the improved condition of the engines and cleaning up of the division, taking cars off side-tracks, and having a systematic way of leaving ears at terminal points where they may be got out by trains running in different directions so that they would not have to switch for several hours at one point to get their trains as they passed through.' Mr. McManamy, the master mechanic for this division, appointed as such on or about the 30th November, 1904, gave the following evidence : — ' Q. What condition did you find the power in when you came here ? — A. It was not good by any means. ' Q. All the engines run down ? — A. Most of them were. ' Q. Out of repair ? — A. Yes, sir. 'Q. What did you do in order to put things in better shape ? — A. We increased the force and ran our shop nights, worked overtime, and so forth, to get the power into condition to give better service than was being given at that time. ' Q. That increased the expenditure of money ? — ^A. Yes, sir. ' Q. As well as the number of hands ? — A. Yes. ' Q. The management in Cincinnati supplied you with all the necessary funds ? A. They supplied me with all I used, at any rate. ALIEXS Oy PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 17 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c ' Q. Even all you wanted ? — A. No. ' Q. How many new engines did they send over here ? — A. There were four new engines sent some time in January, I believe; there were four engines but not new engines. ' Q. But they were good engines ? — A. Yes, in good condition ; they came here in the end of January for a short period of time, and all have been returned. ' Q. And any new engines put on the road since you came ? — A. Tes, six new ones. ' Q. Where were they made ? — A. At Dunkirk, New York. ' How much money has been expended in putting the power in fair condition by the bringing in of six new engines and repairing old engines ? — A. Our pay-rolls run about $17,000 per month. That, of course, could not all be attributed to putting the power in good condition; the only portion of it which could be attributed towards that would be the amount that is in excess of the pay rolls prior to the time I came here. ' Q. How much were the amounts of the pay-rolls prior to your time ? — A. Be- tween $10,000 and $11,000 per month. ' Q. Outside of the pay-rolls what would be the expenditure in connection with the power ? — A. The engines that are sent here are worth about $15,000 apiece, there were six of these. ' Q. What other expenditure ? — A. There was considerable expenditure in the way of shops, but the shops were well under way but not in running order when I came here. ' Q. Machinery ? — A. Yes, there has been some money expended for machinery ; there have been only a few machines bought since I came here, the other machines had been purchased before that time, but they were not installed and were not in working order. ' Q. What would be the cost of them ?— A. They will run from $1,000 to $3,000 each. ' Q. How many were there ? — A. Seven or eight. ' Q. That would be about $20,000 ?— A. Yes. ' Q. So that, with all that expenditure, you have been putting the road in pretty good order ? — A. It is better, at any rate. ' Q. It could not have been put in good order without that expenditure ? — A. Not with the facilities at Walkerville. ' Q. Nor with the facilities at St. Thomas, without the expenditure of that money? — A. No.' In the examination of the witnesses produced by the railway company, namely, Mr. Eberts, Mr. Gilbert, Mr. Wardell, Mr. Chamberlain, conductors, and Mr. Gubb, engineer, they all stated that the improvement in the handling or the working of the road was largely through the improved condition of the power, one or two adding that the road was helped by the addition of sidings and water tanks. Employment of Aliens. Mr. JoHX Samuel Pyeatt had been acting as chief clerk to the general manager of the Pere Marquette Eailway system, with offices in Detroit. He was appointed to succeed Mr. Woollatt as superintendent of the Canadian lines, or Buffalo division, on or about November 28, 1904, the appointment being made at Detroit by Mr. Trump, general superintendent of the Pere Marquette Eailway system. Pursuant to this appointment, Mr. Pyeatt went to St. Thomas from Detroit and entered upon his duties as superintendent, on December 1, 1904, and has continued ever since, receiving lb--i f- for $250 per month and expenses. He admitted being an American citizen. 36c— 2 18 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Everett E. Cain, the trainmaster, is also an American citizen, and was appointed to that position hy Mr. Pyeatt, and entered upon his duties on or about December 22, 1904. His evidence with reference to his appointment is as follows : — ' Q. When were you first spoken to with reference to the appointment ? — A. Well, Mr. Pyeatt was in St. Louis, I do not know just what time, I think the first time I talked to him about coming to Canada, was possibly in November, although he had no encouragement to offer me then. I told him I was going to be out of a position De- cember first, and as I had been with those people, of course I naturally thought I could get a position with them again if they had anything. He knew of nothing then, he had not been appointed here at that time, but I told him after I was relieved there I would very likely come to Detroit, and I did ; I do not- remember just what time but I came up there and came out to Blenheim and met him, and we talked over the matter, and I was approached about the position of train master at that time, and I told him I would accept it, and I went back home. I did not want to come here till the first of the year, but I did come a little earlier, I changed my mind and came up here. I left St. Louis December 21, I am pretty near sure, and I came right through over the Wabash to St. Thomas. I had transportation over lines ' Q. Were you in the employ of the Pere Marquette before that ? — A. No, sir, I was in the employ of the Missouri Pacific. ' Q. You knew Mr. Pyeatt at that time when you were on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. Yes. ' Q. For about seven years, I think he mentioned ? — A. Something like that ; we were school-boys together. He was down to St. Louis twice; I spoke to him in November. ' Q. I thought it was first December ? — A. No, sir, I told him I would be out of employment about the first December. ' ' Q. When did you see him the second time ? — A. I do not know just what time it was in December. ' Q. In St. Louis again ? — A. Yes. ' Q. Did he offer you a position then ? — A. Yes. ' Q. As train master ? — A. He did not offer me a position exactly, only he told me to come up ; he mentioned a position and told me I might come up here and see him. I had nothing to do but do that, and I came up. ' Q. I think he said it was about the 10th or 12th ? — A. Possibly so, something like that. My position, I might say, ended after the first December. I was in charge of the World's Fair matter, and the fair was over December 1. ' Q. Let us see what was actually said at St. Louis about your coming here ? — A. When I first talked to him he had nothing in sight. ' Q. He was not appointed then himself ? — A. No. ' Q. Then in the second week of December you saw him there again ? — A. Some time along about then, I do not remember the exact date. ' Q. What was the conversation you had with him then — he had been appointed then ? — A. Yes, he thought he could give me a position, and told me to come up. ' Q. As train master ? — A. Well, I really believe at that time he expected to put me in as chief despatcher, yes, that position was open. ' Q. And because of that conversation you came over four or five days after- wards ? — A. No, it was a week or ten days. ' Q. Because of that conversation _?— A. Yes, I came here the 2l3t December and I was made train master instead of chief despatcher. ' Q. And because of that conversation with Mr. Pyeatt you came here and he employed you ?— A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And you received $150 a month from the moment you took charge ? — A. Yes.' Mr. Pyeatt, in his examination as to the appointment of Mr. Cain, had not been as candid as Mr. Cain was in giving his evidence. Eeferring to the resignatiom of Mr. Cameron, train master, he gave the following evidence : — ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 19 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c ' Q. Who had you appointed before his (Cameron's) resignation was in ? — A. No one. ' Q. Did you think of any one before that ? — A. I had in mind, yes, sir. ' Q. Did you apply to Mr. Trump with reference to it ? — A. I talked with Mr. Trump regarding it. ' Q. Suggest to Mr. Trump any one ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. About when ? — A. It was some time in the middle of December. ' Q. Some days before you asked for the resignation of Mr. Cameron ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Who was it you recommended for the position ? — A. Mr. Cain. ' Q. Where was he at that time ? — A. He was in St. Lonis at that time. ' Q. What position was he occupying? — A. He had been with the Missouri Pacific and had resigned. ' Q. Long before that ? — A. I do not know how long, some time before, a week or two, I think. ' Q. Were you in communication with him ? — A. Not at that time. ' Q. How did you know he had resigned ? — A. He told me when I was in St. Louis. ' Q. You saw him personally ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. When did you see him in St. Louis ? — A. I think I was down there about the first part of December, the IQth or 12th December. ' Q. Did you speak to him with reference to coming to Canada then ? — A. He spoke to me about coming, and I told him I had no vacancy at that time but might some time. ' Q. How long had you been acquainted with him before that ? — A. Six or seven y«ars. ' Q. Were you on the Missouri Pacific too ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Then, did you write to Mr. Cain after speaking to Mr. Trump about him ? — A. No, sir. ' Q. How did you communicate with him ? — A. Mr. Cain came to Detroit or met me in Blenheim, came to Detroit first, and the people there sent him over to BufFalo division, or rather he came over the Buffalo division and met me at Blenheim, and I talked with him about it there, and in St. Thomas. ' Q. How did he get to know about it ? — A. He was not to my knowledge aware of any vacancy on the Buffalo division; he came over in search of employment. ' Q. When ? — A. I do not remember the date, somewhere in the middle of De- cember, I should imagine the 15th or the 20th. ' Q. Cannot you get nearer than that ? — A. No, sir, not by memory. ' Q. Did you make any report to the Detroit ofSoe with reference to him 1 — A. I talked to Mr. Trump about him. ' Q. How long was it after you talked to Mr. Trump before he came to see you at Blenheim ? — A. A week, I should imagine. ' Q. Then you saw Mr. Trump afterwards ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And reported in favour of Mr. Cain 1 — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Can you give me any idea when you reported in favour of Mr. Cain — A. A very few days before his appointment. ' Q. At that time when you saw him in St. Louis, wfcat positions were there that he could occupy under you ? — A. None vacant at that time. ' Q. What positions were there vacant or otherwise ?— A. Train master or chief dispatcher. ' Q. That was the only position at that time In. your division thsit you c ml I give him that would be of service to him ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Did you speak about that to him in St. Louis — A. The position of train mas- ter ? ' . ' ' Q. Yes ? — A. I referred to the fact that I might have a vacancy in some depart- 36c— 2J 20 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ment, and if I did I would be glad to consider liim either as chief desptacher or train master. ' Q. It was only as to these two you might have a vacancy — were those the two positions you mentioned to him ?— A. Yes, sir. ' Q. In fact there were no other positions you could have control over that would suit him ?— A. No, sir. ' Q. Then, in about three days afterwards he came over ? — A. I cannot say in three days, within a week, I think. ' Q. Three or five days ? — Ar Yes, sir. ' Q- Had he an intuition that there was a vacancy to be provided for him ? — A. He might have had. ' Q. How would he gather that ? — A. "When a man is out of employment he fre- quently gathers that intuition from vague insinuations. ' Q. Do you think you gave him that vague insinuation ? — A. I might; I was very willing if anything should occur or come open that he would like to consider, to consider him for it, and told him so, if he were in search of employment and cam^ over here. ' Q. Where was he living at that time ? — A. St. Louis. ' Q. How long had he been living there ? — A. About a year, I think. ' Q. A married man, I suppose, with a family ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. You gave him transportation over to St. Thomas about the 20th December ? — A. No, sir, he came over about the 16th or the 20th. ' Q. He was over here about a week before that ? — A. Yes, sir. 'Q. To spy out the land and see the location ?^A. To ask for employment. ' Q. Did he come to St. Thomas ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. From Blenheim or from Detroit ? — A. I met him at Blenheim. ' Q. And you brought him along ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. He looked around and then went back ? — A. Yes. ' Q. He went back home to St. Louis ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And then returned with his family ? — A. He did not bring his family with him. • ' Q. Not yet ? — A. Yes, he did, his wife came back with him. ' Q. Mr. Trump approved of your report and he was appointed ? — A. Yes, sir. Mr. Cameron, in his evidence stated : ' Mr. Cain told me himself that he was in St. Thomas on the 29th day of Novem- ber. ' Q. What doing there ? — A. He told me that Mr. Pyeatt had sent for him, and he come to St. Thomas to look over the ground. While he was there he took sick, and he took a heavy cold, and he returned to St. Louis, and according to Mr. Cain's own words to me, that while he was in St. Louis sick Mr. Pyeatt had written to him six or seven times asking him why he had not replied to him, and saying that he was waiting for him to come. Mr. Cain further told me that before Mr. Pyeatt ever knew me or saw me or knew who I was, he made an arrangement with Mr. Cain to be his train master when he was appointed superintendent of the Buffalo division of the Pere Marquette Eailroad. ' Q. When did Mr. Cain tell you this ? — A. Mr. Cain told me that on Sunday, the 25th day, last Christmas day, in his own office.' And Mr. Tillson, in giving his evidence, said : — ' Mr. Cain, when he first arrived, of course he visited Chatham several times, very frequently, in fact — and speaking about the job as train master, he said that Mr. Pyeatt had been after him for some three months, I believe that was the- term. He did noi want to come at first. Of course, I might say on the start off, Mr. Cain and I were quite intimate and friendly, of course, and to all appearances we are yet. ALIENS 0_Y PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 21 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c ' Q. He says so ; he says at the present time you are friendly with him ? — A. Very friendly, but this was only about a week after he came there that he said that he had this place in view for some three months ; in fact, Mr. Pyeatt had been after him for that length of time to come with him.' James E. Gilhula, the chief despatcher, is also an American. In his evidence, he said he was born in the county of Kent, about 40 years ago, leaving there when about 20 years of age, he became an American citizen some seven years afterwards, and had lived in the United States until appointed to the position of chief despatcher at St. Thomas in December, 1904, by Mr. Pyeatt, at a salary of $110 per month. He was also on the Missouri Pacific for some IS years as telegraph operator, train des- patcher and chief despatcher, respectively. While in the United States, he applied to Mr. Pyeatt for a position. His evidence with refere^ice to his appointment, is aa follows : — ' Q. You applied for a position to Mr. Pyeatt ? — A. Yes. ' Q. When was that ? — A. That was about the 15th November. ' Q. What position did you ask for ?-^A. I was asking for a position as train despatcher, or chief despatcher. ' Q. You had known him five or six years ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. You knew of his appointment as superintendent of this division ? — A. Yes, I did. ' Q. And have you got a copy of the letter you wrote to him ? — A. No, I made a personal application to him. ' Q. Where ? — A. At Detroit, at the time I applied to him. ' Q. He was not then superintendent ? — A. No. ' Q. That was about the middle of November ? — A. Yes. ' Q. Why did you apply to him ? — A. I knew him personally, and he was chief clerk for the general manager, and from our acquaintance, I naturally stepped around to ask him if he thought I could get employment over here in Canada. ' Q. After he had been appointed superintendent did you write to him ? — A. No, sir. ' Q. How did you communicate with him ? — A. He telegraphed me to come over here and see him, and he thought he could ' Q. Did he oiler you a position ? — A. Yes, he oilered the position of chief des- patcher. ' Q. Did he state the salary ?— A. I think it was $110. ' Q. You think he mentioned that ? — A. I think he did, I have not got the tele- gram. ' Q. What did you do upon receiving the telegram ? — A. I think I replied ' Q. You accepted it ? — A. I do not know as I. altogether accepted it. ' Q. What did you do ? — A. I came over here to see him. Q. Did you reply to the telegram? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What was the reply ? — A. I could not say the words, it gave him to under- stand I would accept the position. Naturally, I was anxious to come over here, and he knew that. ' Q. Were you out of employment at that time ? — A. Virtually so. ' Q. Not doing anything ? — A. Well, I was employed by the Wabash just during the World's Fair trafSc there, and that was at an end at that time, and they were re- ducing their forces on account of it.' OwEx S. Lesei'R, assistant engineer in charge of the Buffalo division, with head'- quarters in St. Thomas, was appointed on the 20th or 22nd .February, 1906, at a salary of $150 per month and some expenses. He is an American citizen and succeeded Mr. 22 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Harris, who was also an American citizen, and who replaced Mr. McKay, on or about the first December, 1904, Mr. McKay's services being dispensed with at that time. Mr. Leseur's appointment took place in Detroit and was made by Mr. Alfred, the chief engineer of the Pere Marquette Railway system. George M. Osborne, instrument man and leveller, is an American citizen, and under Mr. Leseur. He was appointed in Detroit by Mr. Alfred, chief engineer of the system, in the latter part of January, 1905, at a salary of $80 per month. The head- quarters of both Mr. Leseur and Mr. Osborne are at St. Thomas, where they have been ever since their appointment. Joi-iN William O'Loughlin, stenographer, is an American citizen, and was living at Springfield, Ohio, when engaged by Mr. Pyeatt to come to St. Thomas as his steno- grapher. At the time of his appointment he was receiving $50 a month in Springfield, but is now receiving $60 per month in St. Thomas. His evidence as to his appoint- ment as follows : — ' Q. To whom did you apply ? — A. I applied to Mr. Trump. ' Q. He is the general superintendent? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Tou applied for a poistion as stenographer ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Where ? — A. Some time last June I was in Detroit, and I saw him personally, that is, his clerk, and his clerk agreed to get me a position. ' Q. Who was his clerk ? — A. Mr. Babbit. He looked up my record, and he said I could come and work for him, if I wanted to, but I changed my mind and went back to Springfield again, and in about January, in the first part of December, I wrote to Mr. Trump again and told him, if he could give me employment, I would accept it. ' Q. That was in December, was it not ? — A. The first part of December last. ' Q. What did you hear, after writing Mr. Trump again ? — A. Mr. Trump sent that letter to Mr. Pyeatt, I presume. ' Q. Why do you presume that ? — A. Because I heard from Mr. Pyeatt. ' Q. Then, you got a letter from Mr. Pyeatt in answer to that letter ? — A. Yes. ' Q. What were the contents of that letter ? — A. It was a telegram, I think. ' Q. Do you remember what the contents were ? — A. I could give you the sub- stance, saying he understood I wanted a position, and to state salary, and so on. ' Q. What did you do in answer to that telegram ? — A. I replied, saying 1 would hire for $60 a month. ' Q. At that time you were receiving $50 — A. Yes. ' Q. Did you receive an answer to that telegram ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What was the answer ? — A. The answer was, the substance, that he would give me a position here at that wage. ' Q. And you came in answer to that ? — A. Yes. ' Q. When did you arrive ? — A. I think it was on December 9. ' Q. You have been here since ? — A. Yes. ' Q. Were you born in Springfield ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And how old are you now ?— A. Twenty-five. ' Q. And an American citizen, I suppose ? — A. Yes.' John McManamy, master mechanic of the Buffalo division ,was appointed such about November 30, 1904. He had been working for the Pere Marquette Eailway Company at Grand Rapids, Michigan, as road foreman of engines, at a salary of $150 per month. He was appointed to his present position while at Grand Rapids, Michi- gaL. In his evidence as to his appointment, he says : ALIE^^S ON PEEE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 23 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o 'I was told they wanted me to come to St. Thomas; that was all there was of it; and when I asked the question, what rate of pay, they said it would be all right, we want you now to go to St. Thomas,' And he accordingly left for St. Thomas, and has been there ever since, receiving $175 per month as wages. He is an American citizen. He succeeded an American, Mr. N. K. Christie, who had replaced Mr. Austin, mechanical superintendent at Walkerville, at the time the Pere Marquette took over the railroads that now comprise the Buffalo division. Mr. Austin was a Canadian and resigned his position in the fall of 1903, because of his increasing years. He is, however, still in the service of the company as foreman of the round-house at Walkerville. Charles Franklin Shoemaker, foreman of the boilermakers, was appointed on ruary 20, 1905. His evidence is as follows : — ' Q. By whom were you employed ?— A. Mr. Stafford. (Mr. Stafford was then the general foreman of the shops in St. Thomas.) ' Q. Where ?— A. Here, at St. Thomas. 'Q. How did you come to be here, in St. Thomas?— A. I had a friend here who was in charge of the shop. 'Q. Who was he?— A. Mr. W. H. Potter. ' Q. What position had he in the shop ? — A. Foreman boiler man. ' Q. Did you write to him ? — ^A. He wrote me a letter that he was transferred from this position here, this shop to Grand Eapids, and that there was a vacancy here, so I wrote to Mr. Kellogg and to Mr. Stafford about transportation, and when I got there I asked for the job, and he gave it me (Mr. Kellogg at this time was master mechanic of the Pere Marquette system, having headquarters in Grand Eapids, Michigan).' ' Q. Have you the letter Mr. Potter wrote you ? — A. No, sir ; I burned it up, I think. , ' Q. Where were you living at that time ? — A. Terre Haute, Indiana. ' Q. You arrived here about what time ? — A. On February 20. ' Q. Having received transportation from Mr. Kellogg ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Mr. Kellogg sent it to Terre Haute ? — A. Yes ; I am a little ahead of my story there. ' Q. Just explain it ? — A. I got a letter from Mr. Kellogg, and he said in the let- ter : " I inclose- you transportation, Chicago to St. Thomas." I got the letter, but there was no transportation .in it. He forgot to put it in. When I went to Chicago, I went, to the freight office and got the transportation there at the general freignt agents'. Q. On the Pere Marquette ? — A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. Your wife and family came subsequently ? — A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. Did you get transportation for them, too ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What wages are you receiving ? — A. $85 a month. ■ Q. What position do you occupy ? — A. Foreman boilermaker. ■ Q. You were born in the United States ? — A. Yes. ■ Q. And you are an American citizen ? — A. Yes, sir.' Charles H. Shoejiaker, his son, was appointed by him about the 8th March, 1905, Ho also is an American citizen. The manner of his appointment is shown by the evi- dence of his father, Charles F. Shoemaker, as follows: — ' Q. Then your son also came here ? — A. Yes, sir. ' ' Q. How did he come to get here ? — A. Supposed he could get work here, and he asked me for a job, and I needed a man, and I put him to work. ' Q. That was in March, about the 8th March ? — A. I do not remember what data it was in March, along the fore part of March. 24 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. How did he come to travel here ? — A. I had spoken to Mr. Stafford abovit transportation for him on account of him being one of the family. ' Q. How old is he ?— A. 21. ' Q. You required a boilermaker just at that time ? — A. I did not exactly neei a man, no, I did not speak to Mr. Stafford for him to come here to work. ' Q. What do you mean by not exactly, you could have put a boilermaker in ther.-5 if you had so desired it; you could have found work for him ? — A. I do not know, but what I might have had enough work that T could have put on more men if they had allowed any more. ' Q. When was it you wrote to your son about transportation ? — A. I spoke to Mr. Stafford. ' Q. About what time ? — A. Shortly after I came here. ' Q. Within a week ? — A. I think it was about a week. Q. What was your boy doing ? — A. He was working for the Pennsylvania Kail- road Company at Terre Haute. ' Q. With the same company you had been working ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Then, in about a week you asked Mr. Stafford for transportation for your sen to come here ? — A. Yes. ' Q. And he arrived immediately ? — A. About a week after, I think. ' Q. You sent him transportation ? — A. Mr. Kellogg did. ' Q. And he arrived in consequence of receiving transportation ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And immediately he was put to work by you ? — A. Not put to work until after he came here.' Werner C. Groening, general foreman of the St. Thomas shops, was appointed March last, and has occupied that position since the 18th of that month, having been previously employed at the round-house in Detroit. He is an American citizen, and was in Detroit on the Pere Marquette Railway at the time of his appointment to St. Thomas, having been there for six weeks only, and coming" from Saginaw where he had been working in the shops of the railway company for some 18 years, where he received $80 a month. He is now receiving $110 per month. He was appointed to his piesent position by Mr. Kellogg, the general master mechanic. His evidence as to his appointment is as follows : — ' Q. How did! you come to St. Thomas ? — A. There was a position open, better pay. ' Q. Who told you about it ? — A. Mr. Kellogg. ' Q. Mr. Kellogg at Grand Eapids ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Did he write to you or did you see him personally ? — A. I saw him personally. ' Q. Where ?— A. At Detroit. ' Q. He came to see you there ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What did he ofier you ? — A. He made no offer at all; he told me there was an opening here for advancement and he wanted to transfer me from Detroit to St. Thomas. ' Q. Did you write to St. Thomas then ?— A. No, sir, I came to St. Thomas. ' Q. You came according to instructions ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Who gave you transportation ? — A. Mr. Kellogg. ' Q. WKen was this ?— A. The lYth March.' Mr. McManamy, in his evidence referring to the appointment of Mr. Groening and Mr. Shoemaker, stated, " Mr. Groening was appointed by a bulletin issued' in the St. Thomas shops. He was sent here by Mr. Kellogg for that purpose, and Mr. Kellogg appointed Mr. Shoemaker or Mr. Stafford employed him. That was done when I was not in the city, and when I came here I found Mr. Shoemaker working." ALIENS ON PERE MIUQVETTE RAILWAY 25 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c ' Q. Mr. Greening was appointed by Mr. Kellogg ? — A. Mr. Groaning was ap- pointed by me and approved of by Mr. Kellogg; he was sent here by Mr. 'Kellogg. ' Q. He was sent here by Mr. Kellogg for appointment ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And Mr. Shoemaker was appointed as he said in his evidence? — A. Yes, sir.' From Mr. McManamay's evidence, it appears that Mr. Stafford was appointed general foreman of the shops on or about January 8, and left on March 21, that he succeeded Mr. Eoyce, who had in turn replaced Mr. Bartlett, a Canadian, both Mr. Eoyee and Mr. Stafford being Americans. Mr. Bartlett left the service of the com- pany in July or August, 1904. William L. Hunker, storekeeper, was appointed on or about December 27^ 1904, He had been employed in Oklahoma previous to that date, and had applied for a posi- tion from there, desiring to get nearer to his home, which is in Elkhart, Indiana. He gave the following evidence as to his appointment : — ' Q. Where were you employed on the Pere Marquette ? — A. The letter I got ask- ing me to come to the road offered me the position of storekeeper at Muskegan, Michigan. ' Q. WTiere was that letter sent from? — A. From Mr. Atherton's office; he was then at Saginaw, Michigan.' The evidence shows that Mr. Atherton was general storekeeper of the Pere Mar- quette railway system at Saginaw. ' Q. He wrote to you from Saginaw ? — A. Yes, sir. 'Q. To Oklahoma?— A. Yes, sir. ' Q. How did 'he come to write you? — A. I had filed an application wit/i him some time before for a position. The letter I got from him told me to report to room 10, Depot Building, at Saginaw, Michigan. The first k-tter he wrote offered me a posi- tion as storekeeper at Muskegan. ' Q. When you got to him, what then ? — A. I reached his office at nine o'clock, December 27, 1904. Mr. Atherton was not there, he was at Walkerville that day, and the man in charge, Mr. Minot, said he had instructions to send me to Walkerville, and I went down to Walkerville. ' Q. He gave you transportation I — A. Yes. ' Q. What wage had he offered you? — A. Sixty-five dollars a month at Muskegan, Michigan. ' Q. Who offered the salary? — A. He never said anything about what it was till I saw the pay-rolls — what it was going to be. ' Q. You were surprised in getting $5 more than you expected ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. In Walkerville, you took charge ? — A. Yes, sir. 'Q. On the 28th December?— A. I got down there about 4.30 of the 27th, and I worked the rest of the afternoon and that evening. ' Q. Did you meet Mr. Atherton there ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. He told you what to do ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. You are an American citizen ? — A. Yes, sir.' The evidence shows that Mr. Hunker succeeded an American, who had absconded, and who succeeded a Mr. Colon, a storekeeper who had been appointed from Saginaw by the general storekeeper. Mr. Colon succeeded Mr. Knechtel, a Canadian, who left the service in September or October, 1904. Edgar Britton, district passenger agent at London, was appointed to that position on October 1, 1904, having been previously district passenger agent at Toledo in con- 26 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 nection with the Pere Marquette railway. He was appointed by the general agent -dl Detroit and is an American citizen. He gave the following evidence : — ' Q. I presume they paid your transportation here, you and your family, from there (Toledo) ?— A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What is the remuneration you are receiving now ? — A. One hundred and twenty-five dollars per month and expenses. ' Q. Was the office opened here at the time you reached here ? — A. Yes. ' Q. At the same place ? — A. The same office. ' Q. Who was in charge of it ? — A. Mr. Thomas Marshall ; he had the title of general agent; he had charge of both freight and passenger. 'Q. He is still in the service of the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes. His title has been changed to division freight agent, too much for one man to look after. 'Q. When was the office established in London?— A. April 23, 1904. ' Q. With Mr. Marshell as general agent ? — A. Yes, sir.' In addition to the above, who are all American citizens, and were appointed to the positions they severally occupy while residing in the United States, I examined several others who had been appointed to their positions immediately upon, or shortly after, their arrival in St. Thomas from the United States. The evidence, however, fell short of showing that they came within the Alien Labour Law. I refer to the cases of Harry E. TuUer, Edwin J. McMillan and Angus E. Mclntyre. They were acquainted with one or more of the officials of the road, and at their request received transporta- tion from the United States to St. Thomas. Canadians who were Discharged or who Left the Company's Employ on Account of the Importation of Aliens. The evidence shows that the following Canadians were either discharged or left the employment of the Pere Marquette Railway Company in consequence of the im- portation of aliens, namely : — Keith R. Cameron, trainmaster ; Owen McKay, assistant engineer; Benjamin Knight, train despatcher; W. A. Kirkpatrick, train despatcher; Amy McLean, stenographer, and Edna Steel, stenographer. MR. CAMERON'S CASE. Mr. Pyeatt gave the following evidence as to Mr. Cameron : — " Q. Did you complain to Mr. Cameron of the difficulties that the system was under? — A. Yes, sir. 'Q. Did you merely specify particular instances, or did you state generally that the system was not up to the mark? — A. No, I complained of the time trains were making; they were very late, running from 30 to 40 and 50 hours on the road, 117 and 27 miles. ' Q. Did you explain how that could be overcome ?— A. I had my ideas as to how it should be overcome. ' Q. Did you explain it to him ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What did he answer ? — A. He, of course, promised to do the best he could. ' Q. And did he ? — A. I have an idea he did. ' Q. Did he improve it ? — A. I do not think so. ' Q. How often did you complain to him about the state of affairs i — A. Erom December 1 till the time he resigned. ' Q. A dozen times ? — A. A great many more than that. ' Q. Why did he resign ? — A. I suppose because he thought he could not bring about a condition that would be satisfactory. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILJVAl 27 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o ' Q. Did he say so ? — A. No, sir. ' Q. Did you ask for his resignation ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. When did you ask for it? — A. About December 20, I think, perhaps a few days later than that; it might have been a little earlier. ' Q. What led up to your asking for his resignation ? — A. Because I did not think he was making an improvement as rapidly as he should. ' Q. From the first to the tvfentieth you complained to him over a d'ozen times as to the manner in which he was attending to his duties ? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. And there was no improvement, you considered? — A. Not at all.' Mr. Cameron gave these statements the most unqualified denial. His evidence re- specting the same is as follows: — ' Q. What did Mr. Pyeatt do with reference to the transportation that was under hi^. .iurisdiction at the time he was appointed ? — A. He made no change. ' Q. Did he consult you with reference to transportation ? — A. Not a great deal ; very little. ' Q. Did he complain to you about the delay ? — A. He did not. ' Q. Did he make any complaints to you at all about the manner in which the trans- portation was looked after? — A. He made no complaints to me whatever. He spoks to me on two or three occasions about the general operation, admitting that we were up against it hard, and that we would have to do the very best we could, knowing at tliat time that it was a very hard proposition, but no complaint was made. ' Q. No complaint was made to you with reference to the manner in which yon were performing your duties ? — A. No, Your Honour. ' Q. Are you sure about that ? — A. I am.' After reading the evidence of Mr. Pyeatt as above set out to Mr. Cameron, 1 asked him what he had to say about it, when he replied, " So far as complaints are con- cerned, Mr. Pyeatt is telling an untruth; and so far as suggestions are concerned, ha made none of them to me." ' Q. Did he make any complaint as to your not disciplining the men under you suificiently ? — A. He did not. ' Q. Did he ever speak to you about the discipline of the road ? — A. Never men- tioned a word to me. ' Q. Did he ever mention to you about the handling of the cars at the oiiierent yards ? — A. On three or four occasions Mr. Pyeatt went to Samia, and on his arrival there, he would wire me at St. Thomas to clean up the line. That was all very well ; he knew as well as I did that 1 did not have the power to clean up the line. ' Q. That is, the engine power ? — A. The engine power, yet he would wire me to clean the line up. If we had the power, it would have been a very easy matter to hav.? cleaned the line up ; that would be no trouble whatever, but at that time we were wait- ing for engine power at our St. Thomas and Walkerville shops, hours, sometimes days before we would ever get any. ' Q. What yards were there that were complained about more particularly or (!on- gested' more particularly ? — A. The only congestion that we had last fall was at Chat- ham and Wallaceburg with sugar beet cars. Every fall since the sugar beet industry has located on the Lake Erie line we experienced some kind of a block with sugar beets from the fact that our connections — the Michigan Central, the Grand Trunk, the Cana dian Pacific Railway, and the Wabash — ^perhaps in one day would give us 100 or 150 cars, bunch them to us, and in that way would cause a block. Other reasons are that the sugar beet people would at times be unable to unload the number of cars that we would expect them to. We would run the cars into Wallaceburg, where we did not have one-half the room to hold cars, to store them, and in that way it would cause a block in our yards. 28 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOTf 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. What would you do in order to relieve the block? — A. Every train that wj could put cars on to we did so; in order to relieve Chatham yard we would send our cars to points between Chatham and Wallaceburg to store them on the side tracks in order to get them out of Chatham, get them away from there, make room for them. The cars then would remain until the Wallaceburg sugar people were in shape to take them, although I might say they always, were very good in doing their share of the un- loading, in helping the railway company out. Last December about the 0th of tha month, Mr. Pyeatt wrote me to go to Wallaceburg to give my personal attention to the handling of sugar beets. I spent about 9 or 10 days there. You will understand from that. Your Honour, that while I was closed up in Wallaceburg giving my whole attention to the handling of sugar beets, according to Mr. Pyeatt's instructions, I was ur, able to look after my trains on the road in general. After Mr. Pyeatt took charge? even on the 1st December, on the 28th day of November, up to the time that he asked me for my resignation, which was on the 22nd day of December, deducting the 9 or 10 days from that that I was at Wallaceburg, would not leave me much time. ' Q. Could another official have done the duties at Wallaceburg quite as well as you ? — A. Well, we had no other official that could! have been sent there, although r man could have been sent there to have performed those duties. It was a miatter of seeing that the cars were handled properly. Of course, so far as Wallaceburg is con- cerned, on my own account I would certainly have paid them a visit ; I would not haye remained there 9 or 10 days straight, if it had been left to me. I would perhaps have gone to Wallaceburg to-day, remained to-day and get things in as good shape as I pos- sibly could, and' trip off there to-morrow night perhaps or the morning afterwards and put in three or four hours, and dodge around here and there. My way of working was to cover as much of the ground as I possibly could during the day, using every train possible. 'Q . But Mr. Pyeatt's instructions were urgent, that you were to remain there for how long — for all the time that you were working? — A. He asked me to remain there until the sugar-beet season was over with. ' Q. Did he know how long that would continue ? — A. He knew it would be some- thing like two or three weeks. If I had remained at Wallaceburg until the end of the sugar-beet season, a letter from Mr. Pyeatt, no doubt, would have been sent to me at Wallaceburg, asking for my resignation. ' Q. What letter do you refer to now ? — A. On December 2.?, I was out on the line. I went from St. Thomas to Walkerville, Walkerville to Chatham; it was then my intention to go from Chatham to Samia. About thirty minutes before the Sarnia train arrived I received a telegram from Mr. Pyeatt, at St. Thomas, advising me to come to St. Thomas to-night. 1 went to St. Thomas. On my arrival there, I found a letter on my desk marked "Personal." I opened it; it was from Mr. Pyeatt. He said : " I believe the discipline of this division requires a change in trainmasters. Please let me have your resignation, to take effect January 1, 1905." At that time Mr. Pyeatt, Mr. Cain and Mr. Gilhula were in Mr. Pyeatt's office. I started to go to see Mr. Pyeatt. When I found that he was engaged, I made up my mind I would wait longer to ask him what his message had reference to. I thought perhaps he wanted to see me about something else, although I had a very good idea why he called me in. But while I waited, the three of them had left there, shortly after that, so that I had no chance to talk to him that night. ' Q. Then, when did you see Mr. Pyeatt after that ? — A. This was on a Thursday night. Mr. Pyeatt was away from the office on Friday and Saturday. I took a walk down to the office on Sunday morning and saw Mr. Pyeatt. My first remark was, " Well, I am out of it," and he said, " Have you anything in sight ?" I said, " The time has been very short for me to find something in sight." He says, " Well, I am sorry.'' I says, " Yes, perhaps." I then said to him, " Mr. Pyeatt, for my own in- formation, outside of the contents of your letter to me that the discipline of the divi- sion requires a change, were my services satisfactory? I would like to know." He says, " Well, so far as I know, they were ; of coui'se, I have not known you a great ALIJJ^'H OA' PEh'K ilAKQCEITE RAILV\'A7 29 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36c while, but from what I understand, your services have been." Then I said, "Tour oflly reason for asking me to resign is, that the discipline of the division requires a change — that I have not been hard enough after the men ?" He says, " No, you have not." I said, "I thought I had got after the men as hard as I felt proper; I have . always been able to get good work out of my men at all times." ' Q. Had he, before that, complained to you that you were not hard enough on the men? — A. No, Your Honour, he did not; he never mentioned discipline. ' Q. Did he suggest how you could become harder on the men than you were ? — A. No, Your Honour, he did not. ' Q. And he gave you no other reason for demanding your resignation? — A. No- thing whatever. ' Q. What did you do upon receiving that letter and hearing that conversation ? — A. Well, it always being my duty \o carry out the insrtuctions of my superior offi- cer, I wrote out my resignation on the following day. •' Q. And you left there I — A. I left there. I was through there on the last day of December. ' Q. So you had a little more than a week's notice of dismissal ? — A. Yes. ' Q. Was Mr. Cain there at that time ? — A. I believe he arrived there that day. I might say, that after receiving Mr. Pyeatt's letter, o nDecember 22. about half-past ten at night, or, at least, the fololwing morning, about eight or half-past eight, I saw a circular announcing my resignation, and that Mr. Cain had been appointed on the above date, which was December 22. ' Q. Have you got that circular? — A. I have. ■' (Circular produced as follows) : — ' "*Pere Marquette Eailroad Company — Buffalo Division, ' " St. Thomas, December 22, 1904. ' " Circular No. 1. ' " Effective this date, Mr. E. E. Cain is appointed trainmaster, vice Mr. K. E. Cameron, resigned. ' '• Office at St. Thomas. '"jr. S. Pyeatt, ' " Superintendent. ' " Approved. ' " W. 0. Trump, ' " General Superintendent." ' Therefore, on that day there would be two trainmasters. ' Q. This had been printed before you found the letter asking for your resignation? — A. It must have been. ' Q. Because you received your letter when ? — A. On the night of the twenty- second, and that circular was distributed the following morning. It was out, dis- tributed among the employees. ' Q. And when did you resign ? — A. On the 23rd day. "' Q. So that your resignation was not in at the time this circular was being dis- tributed ? — A. No, it was not. ' Q. Mr. Trump lives at Detroit ?— A. Yes. ' Q. So that if he signed this he must have signed it before you got your lette" demanding your resignation ? — A. He must have. He must have approved of it be- fore that. ' Q. They paid you your salary up to the end of that month i — A. Up to the end of December, and they paid me half a month extra. I asked for a month'-; salary in advance. They refused that. I wrote them the second time, stating that I thought I would be entitled to it, that I considered that I was discharged. They then said that they would not give me the month's salary, but on account of my long services they would gratuitously grant me half a month's salary. oO REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOIf 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. What were you receiving at that time ? — A. $125 a month. Mr. Cain, I un • deustand', was appointed at $150 a month ; he told me that he was to get $150 a month. ' Did any complaint come from any source at all as to your work on the road . after the American management had taken charge of the Canadian system ? — A. I never heard any. ' Q. Did any of the management commend your work? — A. Yes, Your Honour, Mr. Trump, who is now general superintendent, and at the time that I am about to mention he was assistant general superintendent. It was some time in Oc- tober last, we were running at that time fast beef trains from Chicago to the Bridge and Buffalo via Detroit, and the management decided to divert the freight via Port Huron, give it a trial, see what kind of a run we could make. During the time aince the Pere Marquette took hold of the Lake Erie, Mr. Trump has spent a great deal of time on our division, so that he knew it pretty, well. Well, the first two trains that came to us I was wired to by Mr. Trump to meet him at Samia. He left Samia on the Suspension Bridge beef train, and he told' me to leave on the Black Rock beef train, which would be about an hour behind him — that is, both of us would be on hand ou each train to see that everything would be all right. We made very good runs, and he waited for me at St. Thomas that night; it was somewhere around midnight, au'l he told me that he had no criticism whatever, that everything was going along very v/ell on this division, and he advised me to keep things going in good' shape. He say.; "keep after it, and keep things going, and everything will be all right." I felt very much encouraged, and I remembered that. ' Q. When was that? — A. This was some time in the latter part of September or the first part of October last year. ' Q. After leaving the service in December last, what have you 'been doing ? — A. ] remained here until the 11th of April last, then I went west to the Canadian Pacific Railway and engaged with them as an operator. ' Q. You are now with the Canadian Pacific Railway as operator ? — A. With ths Canadian Pacific Railway as operator, doing relief work between Fort William an 1 Winnipeg. ' Q. At what salary ?— A. At $60 a month. ' Q. So that you are reduced from $125 to less than half of that ? — A. From $125 to $60. I might say that the monthly salary is $55; then what makes the $60 is over- time on Sundays. Getting overtime it makes it $60. ' Q. So that it has been a rather severe punishment to you because you were a Cana- dian? — A. It has. It is quite a big drop, but I made up my mind that I would have to buckle right down and start over again.' In his cross-examination by Mr. Cassels, Mr. Cameron gave the following evi- dence : — ' Q. Do you think that it (the business) could have been any better handled by anybody else than by you ? — A. I don't think so. I might say that Mr. Pyeatt and Mr. Cain and Mr. Gilhula admitted to me that we were up against the hardest proposition they ever saw, and that they wondered — Mr. Cain himself particularly wondered — that we ever got along nearly as well as we did; and a good railroad man would have seen for himself the condition of affairs.' Mr. Cameron subsequently said that, in talking to Mr. Pyeatt, 'he admitted to me that Mr. Cain was a personal friend of his, and that he understood his way of working, and Mr. Cain understood his method of working, so that in that way he de- sired to have him come over here as a trainmaster for himself.' The evidence of Mr. Woollatt, who had been superintendent prior to Mr. Pyeatt's appointment ; of Mr. McKay, assistant engineer of the road, and of Mr. Tillson, agent at Chatham, as also the conductors examined on behalf of the railway company ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 31 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o showed that Mr. Cameron was well qualified for the position he occupied, and that no complaint had ever heen made with respect to the performance of his duties, or to his actions. Mr. Tillson, in his evidence, said : ' I was there when Mr. Cameron came there, and I have known Mr. Cameron's services from a boy up, and I can corroborate every- thing that he said. ' Q. Tou never heard any complaints whatever being made as to the manner of his performing his duties? — A. None whatever. Mr. Woollatt always considered him a smart trainmaster and despatcher and stenographer, or else he would not have pro- moted him. We always got along with him first rate.' Mr. Owen McKay. — ^Mr. McKay was formerly chief engineer of the Lake Erie and Detroit River railway, and, upon the Pere Marquette obtaining control of same, became assistant engineer on March 1, 1904. He was dismissed, no fault whatever being found with him. or his work. He gave the following evidence :— ' Q. When was it you left ? — A. On November 26. Mr. Alfred informed me per- sonally, in his office in Detroit, that the general manager had decided on removing the superintendent's office and the assistant engineer's office to St. Thomas, and they had appointed Mr. Harris as assistant engineer in my place, that the duties of the office would be somewhat different from what they had been under my care ; the plans would be made in Detroit, and new construction work would be managed from Detroit, and they expected the assistant engineer in future to look after maintenance, to be outside and take active care of the work outside, and they decided on putting a new man in the position. ' Q. Were you qualified to do the work they required ? — A. I thought so. ' Q. They did not ask you whether you would remain with them or not ? — A. No, sir. Mr. Alfred told me I could keep my old office in Walkerville and finish up all construction work, and if any new construction work would come up during the sum- mer, they would probably be able to give me a good deal of it, and the assistant engineer would have charge of the maintenance. ' Q. "Were there any complaints about the manner in which you performed your duty at that time ? — A. No; ilr. Alfred told me he was very well satisfied with my work. ' Q. What notice, then, was there given to you of your being relieved from duty ; how long notice was there given of your being relieved from duty ? — A. It must have been about the 22nd November that Mr. Alfred told me there would likely be a change in the engineering office in Detroit which would affect me, he thought, but he would hold back that change as long as possible. On the 26th November he informed me my assistant was appointed. ' Q. Who was the assistant ? — A. Mr. Harris. ' Q. Your salary ended at the end of November ? — A. At the end of November. ' Q. What was your salary at that time ? — A. $195 per month. ' Q. That ended, then, in four days after you got notice to leave ? — A. Yes. ' Q. Was there any notice given to your subordinates ; to the staff ? — A. A few days before I received a notice — I have not the letter — it must have been about the 20th November, I think, if I remembr right, Mr. Alfred wrote me I would have to dispens3 v\ith the services of ilr. Meadows, and perhaps one or both draughtsmen at the firs', December; the railway company had d'ecided upon reducing expenses." Benjamin Knight: Mr. Knight has been acting as despatcher's operator and re- lieving train despatcher on the Pere JMarquette Railway Company until after Mi-, (iilhiila, the chief despatcher. was appointed. He was receiving at that time $60 per month. He gave the following evidence: 32 REPORT Oil' ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 ' Q. How did you come to leave the service ? — A. I veas dissatisfied with the waj' in which they were using me. ' Q. In what way were they using you? — A. Taking me from a regular trick and offering me a position lower than my present wages. ' Q. They were taking you from that and placing you where ? — A. As agent or operator wherever I wanted to go on the road. ' Q. Away from home ? — A. Yes, sir. "" ' Q. At what wage ?— A. $45. ' Q. What was the reason for their doing that ?— A. They claimed I w&s not up tj the standard, causing delays of trains. ' Q. Was there any real cause of their making such complaints against you ?— A. There might have been one or two cases, not more than that. ' Q. Both Mr. Oairi and Mr. Gilhula wore not there until after the 20th December at least, would that assist you in trying to find out when they complained to you ? — A. I received my notice on January first that my work was unsatisfactory. ' Q. yrom whom did you receive that notice ? — A. Mr. Gilhula. ' Q. Had he given you any cause for complaining about your unsatisfactory work ? — A. Never had. ' Q. Never mentioned any complaint ? — A. No. ' Q. Had he reason for making any complaint? — A. Well, I cannot say that the had; I thought I was doing my work equal to the other men. ' Q. How long have you been a despatcher ? — A. I think practically the third or fourth month after I took service with the Lake Erie people I was appointed relieving despatcher. I worked on the Michigan Central at Niagara Falls as train despatcher for ten years. ' Q. And you took charge at Ridgetown about two years ago ? — A. Nearly, April 26, 1903. ' Q. Had you any complaints made against your work during any portion of that time? — A. Never. ' Q. Any accidents occasioned through your negligence ? — A. None whatever. ' Q. So that during all that time your acting as despatcher gave satisfaction to those employing you? — A. To the satisfaction of Mr. WooUatt, Mr. Cameron, Mr. Bailey and Mr. Arnum, as I worked under them. ' Q. What about the' Michigan Central, did you give satisfaction to them? — A. I did. 'Who was placed here in your stead? — A. Mr. Kirkpatrick. ' Q. How long had Mr. Gilhula been there when he placed Mr. Kirkpatrick in your position? — A. Mr. Kirkpatrick took my place on January 2.' The evidence of Mr. Cameron, the former trainmaster, and of Mr. Arnum, who acted as chief despatcher prior to Mr. Gilhula's appointment, showed that they con- sidered Mr. EJuight a qualified train despatcher. William A. Kirkpatrick.— Mr. Kirkpatrick succeeded Mr. Knight, and is a Cana- dian, and had been acting two and a half years as despatcher previous to his resigning. He gave the following evidence : — ' Q. What was the reason that caused you to resign ? — A. We were not receiving proper treatment from our ofBcials. ' Q. Which ones ? — A. Mr. Gilhula especially. ' Q. In what way did they treat you improperly ? — A. Eegarding the delays occur- ring, he would not reason with me properly, I did not think. I showed him, on two or three occasions where delays could not be helped. ' Q. At other times he found fault with you ? — A. Yes, sir, different occasions ; I cannot just state them, hut I was not fairly treated, I don't think. ' Did you tell him so ? — A. Yes, sir. ALIEXS ON PERM MARQUETTE RAILWAY 33 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o ' Q. What did he state ? — A. He told me that he did not mean to say anything, that he was simply angry at something else at that time, but I did not think he should have accused me at the time of the delay, as the other despatchers and operators in the office were there, which did not look very well, when they knew the circumstances. ' Q. Was it in consequence of this fault-finding from time to tim« ny Mr. Gilhula' that you resigned? — A. Yes, sir, partly.' Mr. S. J. Gary, an American, was appointed to succeed Kirkpatrick, but Gary resigned on April 19 and left the country. Misses Amy McLean and Edna Steel. — These young ladies had been acting as stenographers, the former since February, 1904, and the latter since August 9, 1904. They were in the superintendent's office at Walkerville until the headquarters were removed to St. Thomas. They came to St. Thomas on November 28. Mr. Pyeatt became super- intendent on December 1, and they acted as stenographers for him for one day, when they discovered that Mr. Pyeatt was dissatisfied with their work and had written a letter to Mr. Trump, of Detroit, asking him to send him a man stenographer. Upon seeing this letter, they both left the service. They were receiving $35 and $25 a month respectively. Mr. O'Loughlin succeeded Miss McLean, and a young lady from St. Thomas was appointed to fill the position of Miss Steel. Both Mr. Woollatt and Mr. Cameron speak in the highest terms of Miss McLean's abilities and work. Contention of the Pere Marquette Railway Company. During the inquiry, Mr. Coburn claimed that the -Pere Marquette Eailway Com- pany did not come within the provisions of the Alien Labour Law, and subsequently he forwarded a statement, on behalf of the company, in which he submitted that the Act had no application to the company, for the following reasons, namely:- — (1.) The company is a foreign corporation temporarily residing in Canada within the meaning of section 5 of the Act; that it has acquired an interest in certain rail- w'ay lines in Canada by virtue of section 284 of the Eailway Act, 1903, and iias a right to take possession of, improve and operate such lines. The executive officers cf the company are all residents and subjects of a foreign country, and the officials cf the company in Canada are simply servants of their departments: Mr. Pyeatt, the superintendent, under the general superintendent ; Mr. McManamy, the assistant mas- ter mechanic, under the master mechanic; Mr. Leseur, the assistant engineer, under the chief engineer; Mr. Hunker, the storekeeper, under the general storekeeper, and so on; that each was sent into Canada by his immediate superior in thn service of the company outside of Canada. (3. ) He also contended that what the Act forbids is importation and immigra- tion, that is, a bringing in by some person or corporation resident in Canada, not the sending in by a person or corporation resident in a foreign jurisdiction. (3.) He admitted that the above-named persons and others were furnished with transportation into Canada, but that such transportation was not furnished by any person or corporation subject to this jurisdiction, and that, therefore, there was no offence committed in Canada. (4.) He also submitted that there was no evidence of any discrimination against Canadians; that some Canadians were dismissed from, or left the service of the com- pany, but in every case a good reason had been shown, and there was no ground what- ever for assuming that the question of their nationality had anything to do with their leaving the service. 36c— 3 34 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 In my opinion, the contentions on behalf of the railway company are not well founded. The first section of the Act reads as follows : — ' 1. From and after the passing of this Act it shall be unlawful for any person, company, partnership or corporation, in any manner to prepay the transportation, or in any way to assist or encourage the importation or immigration of any alien or for- eigner into Canada, under contract or agreement, parol or special, express or implied, made previous to the importation or immigration of such alien or foreigner, to per- form labour or service of any kind in Canada.' Findings and Recommendations. It is shown in evidence that the Pere Marquette Eailway Company has acquired an interest and control of the railway lines formerly known as the Lake Erie and Detroit River Railway, the Erie and Huron Railway, and the London and Port Stanley Eailway, all Canadian railways operating under the provisions of Canadian charters and subject to the laws of Canada; and that such control has been exercised since J'nnuaray, 1902. It is immaterial whether the directors of the new road or the shareholders reside in the United States or elsewhere:, that part of the railroad operated ir Canada does not take upon itself the laws of the country where these gentlemen may happen to reside. The Pere Marquette Railway Company as owners of, or having a controlling interest in these Canadian railways, must submit to and are amenable to the laws in force in Canada, so far as it afEects these lines operated in Canada, and are, therefore, lor the purposes of such lines, residents in Canada, and having, as admitted by their counsel, brought in officers and others, aR residents and subjects of a foreign country at the time they were so brought into Canada, and who came into Canada xmder contract of service made previous to such importation or immigration, have violated the Act to restrict the importation and employment of aliens. These persons being citizens of the United States, a country that has enacted and retained in force laws or ordinances applying to Canada of a character similar to the above-mentioned Act, are subject to the provisions of our Act. Section 5 of the Act referred to by Mr. Coburn does not apply to oi; help the Pere Marquette Eailway Company, as shovi'n in the evidence; that section was passed to exempt private secretaries, servants or domestics of a foreign citizen or subject tem- porarily residing in Canada; and- skilled workmen, engaged' by any person, partner- ship or corporation in or upon any new industry not at present established in Canada, provided skilled labour for that purpose cannot be otherwise obtained, and also pro- fessional actors, artists, lecturers or sing(3rs, or to persons employed strictly as personal or domestic servants. The persons employed by the Pere Marquette railway in Canada a.bove men- tioned do not oome within the above provisions. I find the following officials and servants came into Canada, being assisted in the way of transportation from the United States to Canada, under contract or agreement, parol or special, express or implied, made previous to their importation or immigra- tion, to perform labour or service in Canada, and that, in my opinion, they are liable ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAy 35 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36o to deportation by the Attorney General of Canada under the sixth section of the Act, namely: — John Samuel Pyeatt, superintendent; Everett E. Cain, trainmaster; James E. Gilhula, chief despateher; Owen S. Leseur, assistant engineer; George M. Osborne, instrument man; John William O'Loughlin, stenographer; John McManamy, master mechanic; Werner C. Greening, general foreman; Charles Franklin Shoemaker, foreman boilermaker ; Charles H. Shoemaker, boilermaker ; William L. Hunker, store- keeper; all residing at the present time at St. Thomas, and Edgar Britton, district passenger agent, at present residing at London, Ontario. The evidence shows conclusively that the positions filled by these men could be as well filled by Canadian citizens and British subjects. Mr. Pyeatt, Mr. McManamy, Mr. Leseur, Mr. Cain, Mr. Gilhula and Mr. Britton all admit that fact, and it is also shown in the evidence of Mr. Woollatt, Mr. Cameron, Mr. McKay, and others that Canadians and British subjects could be obtained to fill such positions. Mr. Pyeatt, when asked what efforts he had made to obtain Canadian ofiicials, merely mentioned that he had applied to the Michigan Central and the Wabash railway for ofiicers to fill some of the lower positions ; biit Mr. Woollatt in his evidence stated that he would not think of applying to those railroads, which were American. He gave the following evi- dence on that subject : — ' Q. Prom your very considerable experience as a railroad man, would you have any difficuky in filling all the positions I have referred to with Canadians? — A. No, si"-, I would not. ■ Q. Well qualified for the duties ? — A. Perfectly. '' Q. And even if some of those resigned, you think you could have supplied their places with Canadians qualified and able to peiform the duties satisfactorily? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Without any difficulty? — A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Would you go to the Wabash and Michigan Central to get men? — ^A. I think I would have gone to some roads having Canadians, such as the Canadian Pacific railroad, the Canada Northern, Canada Atlantic, Intercolonial, any other roads in Canada. ' Q. Not to the two American lines running t.irongh St. Thomas?— A. I think not. ' Q. You would not likely get Canadians there? — A. There are a number of Ca vi- dians there. ' Q. For these higher positions ? — ^A. Probably not for the higher positions. ' Q. But you think there would not be any difiiculty in getting them from the other roads, or even apart from the other roads? — A. Yes, sir.' In my opinion, the policy of the present management of the Pere Marquette Rail- way Company was to fill the higher positions with Americans, and, with that in view, they appointed Mr. Pyeatt and other officials to take charge of the work at St. Thomas, and Mr. Edgar Britton, district passenger agent, at London. That there was a discrimination against Canadians is abundantly shown by Iho evidence. Immediate/y after Mr. Pyeatt was appointed, he appointed Everett E. Cain trainmaster, while Mr. Keith E. Cameron was acting as such, and had been so acting with satisfaction to the company and to his superior officers and the public. Mr. Pyeatt, in his evidence, stated that he had complained to Mr. Cameron over a dozen times between December 1 and 20, 1904, as to the manner in which he was attending to his duties, and as there was no improvement by him, he had asked Mt. Cameron for his resignation. £6 REPORT OF ROYAL C0MMIB8I0N 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 I find upon the evidence that Mr. Pyeatt stated what he must have known was untrue when he made such a statement. He further stated that he had not appointed any one to take Mr. Cameron's position before his resignation was in; that statement was also incorrect, as Mr. Cain had been appointed before Mr. Cameron was requested to resign. He also stated that he had known Mr. Cain for six or seven years before his appointment, while Mr. Cain stated in his evidence that they were school-boys together, which, from their present age, must have been more than that number of years. He further stated that he saw Mr. Cain about December 10 or 12, 1904, about a position, when he told him that he had none at that time ; while Mr. Cain stated _ that it was some time in November when he first spoke to him abgut a position, this being before Mr. Pyeatt was appointed superintendent; that the second time was about December 10 or 12, when he .offered him a position, or, as Cain says, ' He told me to come up. He mentioned a position and told me to come up here and see him; I had nothing to do but do that.' I have no doubt whatever that Mr. Cameron's statement tBat no complaint was made by Mr. Pyeatt to him, as stated by Mr. Pyeatt, is true, and that Mr. Pyeatt had at or about the time of his own appointment agreed with Mr. Uaiu to appoint him to Mr. Cameron's position and carried out such intention before obtain- ing Mr. Cameron's resignation; and I hold that his actions toward Mr. Cameron, who is an intelligent, conscientious, capable and hard-working trainmaster, were unfair and unjustifiable and were for the express purpose of helping an American friend. Mr. Pyeatt was also the means of appointing Mr. Gilhula chief despatcher, and Mr. O'Loughlin as stenographer. Mr. Arnum had been acting as chief despatcher, but the work being too heavy for him he asked to be relieved'. Immediately after Mr. Gil- hula's appointment portions of the work that had been done by the chief despatcher prior thereto were distributed amongst the train despatchers, thus relieving the chief despatcher from a portion of the work which Mr. Arnum had been doing as chief des- , patcher. The evidence shows that both Mr. Pyeatt and Mr. Gilhula unnecessarily found fault with some of the subordinate ofiicials, no doubt for the purpose of compellinjj them to resign their position so that their friends could be appointed. The cases of Mr. Cameron, Mr. Arnum, Mr. Knight and Mr. Tillson are in my opinion instances of such action. The intention to discriminate against Canadians is, in my opinion, shown by ths^ following evidence of Mr. Tillson : — ' Q. Was any general statement made (by Cain) as to what Pyeatt was going to do with the Canadian officials? — A. Well, he said, "We will have Gilhula here," Jim, lie called him — and he says, " They will soon have more Missouri Pacific men here." I have not entered into the question of whether the dismissals or resignations of the officials other than Mr. Cameron were proper under the circumstances set forth iu the evidence, inasmuch as I find that even if they were not satisfactorily performing their duties others in Canada could be found to do the work as efficiently as any American, had an effort been made to appoint Canadians. I find no effort whatever was made to appoint Canadians for the positions now filled by Americans. I have the honour to be, Sir, Your obedient servant, JNO WINCHESTEE, • * Commissioner i. 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d A. 1905 THE EOTAL COMMISSIOIsr IN RE HE mm liPioiiEii OF Alls n w m iRiEni MINUTES or EVIDENCE Issued by the Department of Labour, Canacia PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT OTTAWA PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST EXCELLENT MA-JESTY 1905 [1905— No. 36i.] 4-5 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d A. 1905 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE London, Ont., April 24, 1905, The Court House, 12 noon. Present : His Honour Judge Winchester, Commissioner. A. O. Jeffery, Esq., K.C., Gounsel for the Dominion Government. His Honour Judge Winchester read the Commission appointing him. The Commissioner. — I purpose examining Mr. Britton, who has charge of the passenger traffic in London, and then adjourn to meet at St. Thomas, where I have subpcenaed a large number of witnesses for to-morrow morning at 10 o'clock. I find the head offices are there, and consider it proper to have all the witnesses attend there as early as possible, and as soon as I find out exactly the condition of affairs, I will be able to decide where next to proceed with the investigation. Edgar Britton, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your position on the Pere Marquette railway? — A. District passenger agent. Q. When were you appointed to that position? — A. October 1, 1904. Q. What had you been doing previous to that appointment ?^A. District passenger agent at Toledo. Q. In connection with the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who appointed you? — A. H. F. Moeller, general passenger agent, at Detroit. Q. Upon your appointment you came here? — A. Yes, sir; Q. With your family? — A. I am boarding here; yes, sir. Q. You are a married man, I understand? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I presume they paid your transportation here, you and your family, from there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They paid that for you? — A. It does not have to be paid; I travel on trans- portation on all lines. Q. What is the remuneration you are receiving now ? — -A. One hundred and twenty-five dollars per month and expenses. Q. What were you , receiving at the time of your appointment ? — A. The same thing. Q. There is no increase? — A. No. Q. Was the office open here at the time you reached here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At the same place? — A. The same office. Q. Who was in charge of it then? — A. Mr. Thomas Marshall. He had the title of general agent; he had charge of both freight and passenger. Q. He is still in the service of the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes. His title has been changed to division freight agent-^too much for one man to look after in both. 366—1* 4 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Is his lemuneration the same as it was at that time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You found it too much for one man, and decided to separate the offices? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Had there been an agent previous to your coming here ? — A. No, sir. Q. No agent? — ^A. No, sir. Q. When was the office established in London?— A. April 23, 1904. Q. With Mr. Marshall as general agent? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there an office prior to that in London? — A. No, sir. Q. Was there not one in connection with the Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver rail- way? — A. No, sir, only the local freight office. Q. Was that near the Grand Trunk? — A. No, that is our station on Colbome street; it is still there. Q. Who was i^ charge of that?— A. E. J. Tait. Q. What position does he occupy now? — A. Local freight agent. Q. Was he there prior to Mr. Marshall's appointment ? — A. Yes, sir, he reports to Mr. Pyeatt. Q. To whom did you report?— A. Mr. H. F. Moeller. Q. Is your salary paid from there or here ? — A. It is paid from Cincinnati. Q. That is the head office of the system? — A. Yes, sir, it is payable on the Wal- kerville Bank. Q. Have they changed that from Walkerville to St. Thomas since the moving? — A. No. Q. And cheques are still payable at Walkerville? — A. Yes, Bank of Commerce. Q. What lines are you operating at the present day in connection with the Pere Marquette? — A. It is all one system; I do not know what you mean. Q. It is all one system now, but what were the original names of the lines you have absorbed ? — A. Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver. Q. In Canada? — A. The Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver, I believe. Q. Is that the only one? — A. That is all I know of. Q. Where does that line run from ? — A. From Fort Erie to St. Thomas, and' Walk- erville to St. Thomas and London. Q. Then you have the old Port Stanley? — A. The London and Port Stanley. Q. What about the one running to Chatham, have you any charge of that? — A. I suppose that was the Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver. By Mr. Jeffery: Q. It used to be the Erie and Huron ? — A. I do not know about that. By the Gommissioner: Have you charge of all these railways in Canada so far as passenger traffic is con- cerned? — A. No, sir. Q. Who has? — -A. Mr. Moeller, instructions come from him. Q. How many passenger agents are there in connection with these lines in Canada, are you the only one ? — A. I am the only man. Q. So that you have really charge of these different lines in Canada? — A. Yes. Q. You report to Mr. Moeller? — A. Yes, the local business is looked after by Mr. Moeller, I solicit business on the other lines. Q. On the Grand Trunk and Canadian Pacific and' Wabash, and such as that ? — A. Yes. Q. Mr. Moeller looks after your own lines? — A. Yes, locally, Q. Who has he employed besidfl* you in connection with this work iq Canada? — A. No one. Q. You are the only employee ? — A. I believe the rest all come under Mr. Pyeatt, agents, all ticket agents. Q. That is Mr. Pyeatt at St. Thomas?— A. Yes. Q. He has charge of the whole system then in Canada? — ^A. Tps, sir. I ALIEN 8 ON PEBE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 5 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. I suppose you are still an American citizen? — A. I do not know whether I am or not. Q. Have you been one? — A. I was born in Canada. Q. Have you ever voted for the President ? — A. Yes, sir : I left here when I was a child. Qi And you took upon yourself- A. The right to vote. Q. The rights of an American citizen, when you lived there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have not taken the oath of allegiance in Canada? — A. No, sir. By Mr. Jeffery: Q. Did you go with your father over there ? — A. About thirty-nine years ago; I was born in Waterloo county, here. By the Commissioner: Q. Ever since you were of age you have exercised the rights of an American citizen? — A. Yes. Q. And have not become a Canadian or British subject? — A. No, sir. The Commissioner. — Do you wish to ask Mr. Britton anything, Mr. Jeffery? By Mr. Jeffery: Q. You say there was no agent of the Lake Erie and Detroit; I presume that is according to your knowledge only? — A. I know there was not; Mr. Marshall was the general agent previous to my coming here. Q. Handling tickets, and so on, in the Masonic Temple? — A. That is a different thing. Q. Billed up as the Lake Erie and Detroit River railway? — ^A. That is a different thing, that is not what the judge asked me; he asked me if I succeeded anybody here. Q. I do not think he did, but it is quite a reasonable idea to take it that way; there had been an office? — A. Why, there was an office here, as I said before, Mr. Tait was agent here. Q. Outside of Mr. Tait ? — A, Dela Hooke, the Grand Trunk Railway, sold our tickets; Mr. Dela Hooke used to sell our tickets. Q. He did a number of years ago, then you followed him by a gentleman that lived on Hyman street for a while, I do not know his name; you would not know that any- way, I suppose? By the Commissioner: Q. Who would know that? Would Mr. Pyeatt know all about that? — A. 1 don't know, I do not think so ; Mr. Pyeatt has nothing to do with that portion of it. By Mr. Jeffery: ' Q. Mr. WoUatt would be the only one? — A. The old Lake Erie man? All the men employed here in town are Canadians that I know of; they all are in our office. Adjourned at 12.15 P.M. to St. Thomas, April 25, at 10 A.M., at the Court House. REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 St. Thomas, April 25, 1905, The Court House, 10 A.M. The Comniission resumed. Present : His Honour Judoe Winchester, Commissioner. A. O. JefPery, K.C. His Honour Judge Winchester read the Commission appointing him. The Commissioner. — ^Last night I received a message from Mr. Pyeatt, the super- intendent of the system in Canada, asking me to adjourn the examination of witnesses until two o'clock, to enable their counsel, Mr. Ooburn, of Walkerville, to reach here. I have no objection to doing this, and I, therefore, adjourn till two o'clock, this afternoon. The Commission resumed at 2 P.M. Present : His Honour Judge Winchester, Commissioner. A. O. Jeffery, K.C. Mr. Coburn was not present when the Commission resumed. The Commissioner waited until three o'clock for him, but he did not appear, aud the Commissioner then proceeded to examine the witnesses. John Samuel Pyeatt, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your position ?-^ A. Superintendent, Buffalo division. Q. Of the Pere Marquette railw.ay? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What does the Buffalo division comprise? — A. All of the lines in Canada. Q. Can you name those lines? — ^A. From Walkerville to St. Thomas, Sarnia to Blenheim, London and Port Stanley, and joint track from St. Thomas to Buffalo. Q. What were their former titles? — A. Lake Erie and Detroit River, Erie and Huron, London and Port Stanley, and Michigan Central. Q. When were you appointed superintend'ent ?^A. December 1. Q. By whom? — A. Mr. Trump. Q. Where?— A. Detroit. Q. What was your position at that time? — A. Chief clerk to the general manager and superintendent of telegraphs. Q. In Detroit?— A. Yes. Q. What was your wage or salary at that time? — A. $300 a month. Q. And expenses ? — A. Yes, when I was travelling. Q. Not otherwise? — A. No, sir. Q. You took possession of your present position on December 1, 1904; who were the officials in charge of the different departments at that time? — A. Mr. William Woollatt was superintendent. Do you want all the officials of all the departments ? ALIEN 8 ON FERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 7 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. All that you know? — ^A. General officers. Q. Yes, in Canada? — A. Mr. Harris was assistant engineer; Mr. Cameron was train master. Do you want any further than that? That is all I know of officials of the company. Q. Those are all you remember? — A. Yes, sir. They had foreman of the shops, Mr. Eoyce. Q. That is the mechanical department? — A. Yes. Q. Who was the chief despatcher? — A. When I got here they did not have any permanent chief despatcher. Q. Who was occupying that position? — A. The acting chief despatcher when I came to the office was Mr. Arnum. Q. Who was chief engineer? — A. Mr. Alfred, Detroit. Q. He had charge of the whole Buffalo division at that time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He worked' it from Detroit? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you give me the salaries of these different offices at that time? — A. No, sir, I know some of them. Q. Which ? — A. The train master and chief despatcher. The train master received $125 a month, and the chief despatcher $90 a month. Q. And the superintendent? — ^A. I do not know his salary. Q. You do not remember hearing of that? — A. No, sir. Q. How long did Mr. Woollatt remain in charge as superintendent after you were appointed? — A. I succeeded Mr. Woollatt. Q. He was superintendent up to the time you were appointed ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was his title, superintendent ? — A. Yes. Q. How long previous to your appotutment was it that he left office ? — A. He was superintendent on November 30, and' I began on December 1. Q. And it was so arranged that he would walk out when you walked in ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who arranged that? — A. The general superintendent. Q. That is Mr. Trump of Detroit?^ A. Yes, sir. Q. He is still there? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And he takes charge of the whole of the divisions ? — A. All of the system. Q. The whole system? — A., Yes, sir. Q. What was the condition of the Buffalo division, that is the Canadian system, ■when you took charge? — A. That is a little bit general; I think it might be considered rather poor. Q. A poor system; in what respects? — A. The power was in poor condition, that was the worst fault. Q. What power? — A. The locomotives. Q. In what way was that in poor condition? — A. It was just run down and needed repairs. Q. Was that the mechanical part? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And that was the worst part of it? — A. Yes; there were a great many other things contributing Q. In what condition were the other pkrts? — A. I should say, not satisfactory. Q. In what respects? — A. The trains were badly delayed, running very late, very long time on the road, and what caused that might create a difference of opinion ; I do not know just what did contribute to all of it. Q. You haye an idea what contributed? — A. I cannot say I have, because I was not here before that. Q. But I suppose that would continue for a short time under your regime? — A. Yes; I have an idea that discipline had something to do with it, the main thing, perhaps. Q. In what particular department do you refer to ? — A. The transportation department. 8 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD Vll., A. 1905 Q. Wlio had charge of that ? — A. Mr. Woollatt, the superintendent, and Mr. Cam- eron, as trainmaster. Q. Did.you speak to them with reference to it at all?— A. No, sir— I refer to Mr. Woollatt particularly. I certainly spoke to Mr. Cameron, who worked for me over a month. Q. Did you complain to Mr. Cameron of the difficulties that the system was under? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he say with reference to it?— A. At different times a great many things. Q. Did you merely specify particular instances, or did you state generally that the system was not up to the mark ? — A. No, I complained of the time trains were making ; they were very late, running from 30 to 40 and 50 hours on the road, 117 and 27 miles. Q. Did you explain how that could be overcome? — A. I had my ideas as to how it should be overcome. Q. Did you explain it to him? — A. Yes. Q. What did he answer ? — A. He, of course, promised to do the best he could. Q. And did he? — A. I have an idea he did. Q. Did he improve it? — A. I don't think so. Q. How often did you complain to him about the state of affairs? — ^A. From De- cember 1 until the time he resigned. Q. How many times, do you think, during that month? — A. I have no idea. Q. A dozen times? — A. A great many more than that. Q. Why did he r«sign? — A. I suppose because he thought he could not bring about a condition that would be satisfactory. Q. Did he say so ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did he make any statement why he resigned? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you ask for his resignation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did yoji ask for it? — A. I do not remember the date. Q. In December? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Cannot you tell about the date? — A. About December 20, I think, perhaps a few days later than that; it might have been a little earlier. Q. What led up to your asking for his resignation? — A. Because I did not think he was making an improvement as rapidly as he should. Q. From the 1st to the 20th you complained to him Over a dozen times as to the manner in which he was attending to his duty? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And there was no improvement, you considered? — A. Not at all. Q. Whom had you appointed before his resignation was in? — A. No one, Q. Did you think of any one before that? — A. I had in mind, yes. Q. Did you apply to Mr. Trump with reference to it ? — A. I talked with Mr. Trump regarding it. Q. Suggest to Mr. Trump any one? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When? — A. I do not remember the date. Q. About when? — A. It was some time in the middle of December. Q. Some days before you asked for the resignation of Mr. Cameron? — A. Yes. Q. Who was it you -recommended for the position? — A. Mr. Cain. Q. Where was he at that time? — A. He was in St. Louis at that time. Q. What position was he occupying? — A. He had been with the Missouri Pacific and had resigned. Q. Long before that? — A. I don't know how long; some time b4fore, a week or two, I think. Q. Were you in communication with him?— A. Not at that time. Q. How did you know he had resigned ?-— A. He told me, when I was in St. Louis. Q. You saw him personally? — A. Yes. Q. When did you see him in St. Louis? — A. I think I was down there about the first part of December, December 10 or 12. ALIEyS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 9 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Did you speak to him with reference to coming to Canada then? — A. He spoke to me about coming, and I told him I had no vacancy at that time, but might sometime. Q. Tou promised to keep an eye out for him, did you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long had you been acquainted with him before that? — A. Six or seven years. Q. Were you on the Missouri Pacific, too? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What position did you occupy on the Missouri Pacific? — A. Chief clerk for the manager. Q. He was at that time on the Missouri Pacific? — A. Yes. Q. Then, did you write to Mr. Cain after speaking to Mr. Trump about him? — A. No, sir. Q. How did you communicate with him? — A. Mr. Cain came to Detroit, or met me in Blenheim — he came to Detroit first, and the people there sent him over to . Buffalo division, or, rather, he came over the Buffalo division and met me at Blenheim, and I talked with him about it there and in St. Thomas. Q. He had been speaking to Mr. Trump about it? — A. No, sir. Q. How did he get to know about it? — A. He was not, to my knowledge, aware of any vacancy on the Buffalo division; he came over in search of employment. Q. When? — A. I do not remember the date; somewhere in the middle of Decem- ber, I should imagine, the 15th or the 20th. Q. Cannot you get nearer than that? — A. No, sir, not by memory. Q. Did you make any report to the Detroit office with reference to him? — A. I talked to Mr. Trump about him. Q. Before that?T-A. No, sir; no report. Q. How long was it after you talked to Mr. Trump before he came to see you at Blenheim? — A. A week, I should imagine. Q. Then, you saw Mr. Trump afterwards? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And reported in favour of Mr. Cain ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you give me any idea when you reported in favour of Mr. Cain? — A. A very few days before his appointment. Q. At that time when you saw him in St. Louis, what positions were there that he could occupy under you? — A. None vacant at that time. Q. What positions were there, vacant or otherwise? — A. Trainmaster or chief despatcher. Q. The trainmaster is a superior officer to the chief despatcher? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And these two were the only positions he could occupy? — A. No, sir; he could occupy a position in the train service, conductor, agent, I imagine. Q. But I would like to go higher, superintendent, for instance? — A. Yes, sir, I have no doubt. Q. That was the only position at that time in your division that you could give him that would be of service to him? — A. Yes. Q. Did you speak about that to him in St. Louis? — A. The position of train- master ? Q. Yes? — A. I referred to the fact that I might have a vacancy in some depart- ment, and, if I did, I would be glad to consider him either as chief despatcher or train- master. Q. It was only as to these two you might have a vacancy — were those the two positions you mentioned to him? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In fact, there were no other positions you could have control over that would suit him? — A. No, sir. Q. That was the first week in December you mentioned that to him? — A. Not the first week; I imagine it was the 10th or 12th. Q. The second week in December, then? — A. Yes. Q. Then, in about three days afterwards he came over? — A. I cannot say in three , days ; within a week, I think. 10 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Three or five days? — A. Yes. Q. Had he an intuition that there was a vacancy to be provided for him? — A. He might have had. Q. How would he gather that? — A. When a man is out of employment, he fre- quently gathers that intuition from vague insinuations. Q. Do you think you gave him that vague insinuation? — A. I might. I was very willing, if anything should occur or come open that he would like to consider, to con- sider him for it, and told him so, if he were in search of employment and came over here. Q. Where was he living at that time? — A. At St. Louis. Q. How long had he been living there? — A. About a year, I think. Q. A married man, I suppose, with a family? — ^A. Tes, sir. Q. Tou gave him transportation over 'to St. Thomas about December 20? — A. No, sir, he came over about the 15th or 20th. Q. I think he took charge of his present position about December 20 ? — A. The ■ record shows that, I do not remember the date. If he took charge on the 20th, he came over a week — I thought it was later tha,n the 20th he took charge, I thought it was about the 24th or 25th, somewhere along there; I may be mistaken about that. Q. I think he and Mr. Gilhula came about the same date? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. And both, I think, arrived about December 20 ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He was over here about a week before that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To spy out the land and see the location ? — A. To ask for employment. Q. Did he come to St. Thomas? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. From Blenheim or from Petroit? — A. I met him at Blenheim. Q. And you brought him along? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. He looked around and then went back? — A. Yes. Q. He went back home, to St. Louis? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And then returned with his family? — A. He did not bring his family with him. Q. Not yet? — ^A. Yes, he did; his wife came back with him. Q. You gave them transportation, I think? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you not? — A. No, sir. Q. I suppose they could ride free? — A. I have no doubt they Could. Q. The trainmaster ought to be able to have that privilege ? — A. He was not train- master when he came over, though. Q. Not on December 20? — A. He was trainmaster after he came over — ^the ap- pointment was made after he arrived here. Q. Mr. Trump approved of your report, and he was appointed? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What salary? — A. One hundred and fifty dollars per month. Q. Do you know what he had been previously receiving? — A. No, I don't know what he received with the Missouri Pacific. Q. What are his duties as trainmaster ? — A. He is in charge of the movement of trains. Q. And the appointment of the train hands? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Despatchers? — A. Yes, sir. * Q. He appoints them also ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. The train hands, I suppose, would cover engineers, conductors, brakesmen and baggagemen, and such as that? — A. Conductors, brakesmen and baggagemen; engin- eers and firemen are appointed by the master mechanic. Q. Brakesmen, too? — A. No, sir; conductors, brakesmen and baggagemen by the trainmaster. Q. Has he been appointing any since his appointment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He has taken the full charge and looked after the affairs of the company, as he ought to? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were born in the States? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What part? — A. Arkansas. ALIENS ON PERE MARQVETTE RAILWAY 11 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. And have lived there all your lifetime ? — A. No, sir ; I have lived in the States all my life. Q. And, of course, are an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Cain one also? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What were Cameron's wages, when he was asked to resign? — A. One hundred and twenty-five dollars a month. Q. Mr. Cain gets $150?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think a Canadian could be found to do the work of superintendent of this road and of this division? — A. I have no doubt they could. Q. Also the train master's duties? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And despatoher's ? — A. Yes, sir, if you knew where to look for them and ha J time to look long enough, I have no doubt you could. Q.'Did you look for them in Canada at all? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where ? — ^A. On the Pere Marquette. Q. Are there any men on the Pere Marquette, Canadians, that could have filled the position of train master ? — A. I was not very well acquainted with the men on the Buffalo division when I came over and knew very little about them; there may be quite a few who could, but I did' not know of any. Q. Did you make enquiry? — A. I was naturally thrown in contact with the men when I was with them for 25 days before Mr. Cain's appointment, and I did not know cf any one I cared Q. You were only appointed on December 1, and he was appointed really about the middle of that month, only two weeks afterwards? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that you had not very much opportunity to make enquiries? — A. Not very long. Q. What enquiry did you make ? — A. I do not believe you would go about that by making enquiries; you are acquainted' with the mpn; I was acquainted with a good many of the men, saw their work and judged their ability according to my judgment to do so, and I did not know of any one I cared to appoint to the position of trainmaster. Q. Were there any men on other roads in Canada fitted for that position? — A. T did not know of any. Q. Did yoa make any enquiry? — A. No, sir. Q. Dcspatchers, did you make any enquiry about them ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. 'Could you not find any ? — A. I could not fiijd any who were billing to go ^.o work at the rate we would pay. Q. Wliat enquiry did you make? — A. I enquired through. the Michigan Central : I have talked to the oiScers of the Michigan Central about despatchers and also the Wabash. Q. Are they American? — A. The gentlemen I talked with? Q. Yes? — A. 1 really could not say, I do not know them well enough, I met thera vlren I came here. Q. The two roads you refer to are American roads? — A. Yes," sir — I do not know that they are, the Wabash is, the Michigan Central traverser, both countries; I do noz know whether you can consider it an American road. Q. It is not the Canada Southern now, it was considered a Canadian road then; it is the Michigan Central now? — A. I have no doubt you know more about it than I do. Mr. Jeffert.— It was absorbed the same way as the Pere Marquette absorbed this. By the Commissioner: Q. However, what further enquiry did you make for the purpose of obtaining men for these positions — these are good positions, I suppose to railway men ? — A. A position of despatciier? Q. Yes — chief despatcher and train master? — A. Well, no, not at that time; the positions as they are paid now probably they are as good as any of them; they were not paid 60 much then. 12 REPORT OP ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. What were they being paid at that time? — A. Our positions? Q. Yes? — A. Trainmaster, $125 per month, and chief despatcher, $90 per month. Q. YovL did not make further inquiry for the purpose of obtaining a despatcher than what you have stated ? — A. Not outside of St. Thomas ; I did not have an oppor- tunity; I was pretty busy on the Pere Marquette; I did not have occasion to get out of St. Thomas in Canada anywhere. Q. Did you not look anywhere in any of the other lines? — A. No, sir; I was not acquainted with any of the officers of the other lines. Q. You did not advertise? — A. No, sir. Q. Eailway people, as a rule, do not do that? — A. I don't think they do, for posi- tions of that sort, Q. When was the present despatcher appointed? — A. The chief despacther — the appointment of the despatcher and trainmaster was made about the same day — per- haps, the trainmaster one day and the despatcher the next. Q. Did you know the chief despatcher before that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where had you become acquainted with him? — A. On the Missouri Pacific. Q. How long ago ? — A. Five or six or seven years ago ; some time ago. Q. You are referring to Mr. Gilhula? — A. Yes. Q, What position did he occupy there? — ^A. Chief despatcher on the Migsouri Pacific. Q. Did you communicate with him as to taking a position under you? — A. He came to Detroit just about the timfe I left there, and said he was very anxious to go over; he lived in Canada, his people all lived over here; he was very anxious to get back, and when I had to have a chief despatcher, I sent for him. Q. Did you write to him? — A. I telegraphed him. Q. Have you got the telegram? — A. No, sir. Q. What was the purport of it ? — A. I told him there, was a probable vacancy up here, and would be glad to have him come up for an interview. Q. Do you remember the date of it? — A. No, sir. Q. You could get that, I suppose? — A. I telephoned the message to the telegraph office. ' ■ Q. Which telegraph office? — A. I think it vr.as the Canadian I'acific Eailway; It was about the 15th, along about the middle of the month. Q. I supposfe there would be no difficulty in getting a copy of that telegram? — A. I don't know, there may not be. Q. Where was he at the time? — A. At Decatur, Illinois. Q. What doing? — A. Despatcher for the Wabash. Q. Do you remember his salary then? — A. I don't know. Q. Who was acting as despatcher for you at that time ? — A. Mr. Arnum. Q. What salary? — A. Ninety dollars a month. Q. What salary did you offer Mr. Gilhula ? — A. One hundred and ten dollars. Q. How long hhd Mr. Arnum been in charge? — A. He was made acting chief despatcher. before I came to St. Thomas, by Mr. Cameron; the chief despatcher was laying off. Q. And he was acting chief despatcher ?— A. Yes, sir; I told Mr. Arnum that this position would be made permanent. He held it about two wse^s, and said it was too heavy for him, he could not run it, and asked to be relieved. Q. Did you find fault with Mr. Arnum's work? — A. No, air. Q. Did you complain to him at all? — A. No, sir — that is not quite right; I think I complained of the work of despatchers frequently in a general way; I had no serious complaint to Mr. Arnum. Q. What was the nature of your complaints ? — A. The way the trains we?e handled and delays occurring, and I was asking him to eliminate those delays all the time. Q. How qften did you complain to him ? — A. I cannot say, not a great many times. Q. As frequently as you complained to Cameron? — A. No, I don't think so; I was not in the office so much at that time ; I was out on the road most of the time. I ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 13 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d think I saw Mr. Cameron more frequently, and I was quite sure Mr. Arnum was doing the very best lie could, and I made no complaint personally against Mr. Arnum except in a general way about the way trains were handled. Q. Complain to him' about not remaining long enough hours there ? — A. I do not remember of any such complaint. Q. What hours have these despatchers; have not they got any specified times? — A. Despatchers have regular hours. Q. What hours are they? — A. We have three despatchers that have eight-hour tricks, and one ten-hour trick; the chief despatcher has no regular Jiours. Q. He is not there always? — A. I don't think any of them stay lliere all tlio time. Q. You would not find fault if he were not? — A. No, sir. Q. What time is he supposed to be there; take the time in the morning?— A. About eight o'clock. Q. Then, how long is he supposed to remain there during the day ? — A. I say there is no regular hours. Q. You have some hours ? — A. A reasonable time to work ; we do not expect unrea- sonable things of any man. Q. You expect a reasonable time? — A. Yes. Q. What would you call a reasonable day? — A. During those tim.^s .1 was working ten, twelve and fourteen hours a day, and the chief despatcher, he is an official of the company, and has, as I say, no regular hours. Q. You were all new men, and a new broom makes a clean sweep? — A. He was made chief despatcher when I came. Q. What hours did you expect him to put in ? — A. I would expect him to be there as long as he could remain without impairing his health, or as long as he was needed. Q. Eight o'clock in the morning, what time at night — six o'clock ? — A. He would work till six, and frequently came back after supper. Q. Frequently would come back for how many hours ? — A. There was no specified time; sometimes an hoiir and some times longer, so long as his presence was required. Q. Suppose he was there about twelve hours in a day, you would not object to his going away then? — A. 'No, sir. Q. Did you object to his not being there at certain hours ? — A. I do not remember of objecting. Q. You do not remember making that objection at all ? — A. No. Q. He asked to be relieved? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What position does he occupy now ? — A. Trick despatcher. Q. At the same salary he was receiving? — A. Yes. Q. $90 a month? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your present salary?— rA. $250 a month. Q. And expenses? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, living expenses? — A. Yes, sir. Q. AVould that eqaal the salary you had in Detroit? — A. Not quite. Q. You are looking to the future ? — A. I think we all do. Q. The good time is coming when you expect to go up higher? — A. I hope so. Q. You have of course that in view ? — A. Yes, sir, that was the object of my com- ing here. Q. Were these the only two men that you employed as officials since your regime commenced? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who employed the master mechanic? — A. Mr. Christie. It is ai.sistan: Piaster mechanic ; the master mechanic employed him. Q. Who is master mechanic? — A. Mr. Kellogg now, at Grand Eapids. Q. He has charge of the whele Pere Marquette system ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And the chief men are called assistant master mechanics for their divisions? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know of Mr. McManamy's appointment ? — A. Yes. 14 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. When was that made?— A. I do not remember the date. It may have been about the first of the year, or it may have been in December; I do not remember; we have records that will show that. Q. I think it was about the same time you were appointed, if my memorandum is right?— A. I have no doubt that may be so. Mr. Eoyce was foreman, and remained for some time, and I believe Mr. McManamy did come over Q. With you ? — A. Not with me. Q. About the first December ? — A. I do not remember when he came over. Q. Where did he come from ? — A. I think from Saginaw. Q. What was he doing there?— A. I don't know what his position was there. Q. Mr. Christie appointed him? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was Mr. Christie? — A. He was master mechanic at Grand Eapids. Q. What became of Mr. Eoyce ?— A. He left the service. I don't know where he ia. Q. When? — A. In January, I think. Q. Why ? — A. Mr. McManamy will have to tell you that ; I don't know. Q. Did you know Mr. McManamy before you came here ? — A. No, sir. Q. He was not on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. I don't think he was. I never knew of hiin there. Q. Who was his assistant? — A. He had none that I know of. Q. Here now ? — A. His foreman Greening, is foreman of the shop. Q. Did not Mr. Greening come from the Missouri Pacific? — A.. I don't think so. I never knew of him there. Q. Would you likely know of him? — A. I would likely have heard of him. I was there for some time, and I never heard of Mr. Groening till he came over here. Q. Mr. Gillam, is he not master mechanic ? — A. No, sir. Q. Is there such a person? — A. There was roundhouse foreman by that name. Q. Not master mechanic? — A. No. Q. I thought Mr. Groening was roundhouse foreman? — A. No, sir. Q. Who is Mr. Gillam? — A. He was roundhouse foreman. Q. He came from the Missouri Pacific ? — A. He said he did. I did not know him there. Q. Is he still there as roundhouse foreman? — A. No, sir. Q. Where is he now ?— A. I have no idea. ^ Q. Has he left your service?— A. Yes, sir. Q When? — A. About two months ago. Q. You knew Mr. Gilhula for five or six years in the States? — A. I knew him for some time. Q. He was on the Missouri Pacific when you knew him? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he an American citizen, too? — A. I don't know whether you would call him an American or not; he lived about one-half his life over here, and one-half over there. Q. How did he vote? — A. I would rather you asked him. Q. He never told you? — A. No, sir. Q. What side of politics he was on ? — A. No, sir, I have no idea what side of poli- tics ; I am not a politician. Q. Eailroad matters take up all your time? — A. I am afraid they do. Q. Mr. Gary, did you appoint him? — A. He was employed as despatcher. Q. Train despatcher — that is under Mr. Gilhula? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who employed him? — A. Trainmaster and chief despatcher have the employ- ment of despatchers. Q. You have not anything to do with that? — A. I am consulted on such matters. Q. They recommend? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who recommended Mr. Gary? — A. Mr. Gary made an application to me, I re- ferred it to the trainmaster, and it showed what experience he had had, and asked him if he wanted him, and he said he needed a man, and he was employed. ALIENS OW PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 15 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Where was he at that time? — A. When he applied, I think he was at — I do not remember the town — I think some town in Kansas. Q. He was on a railway there? — A. I think he was out of employment then . ■Q. Tou gave him transportation over here? — A. From Detroit. Q. Prom Detroit only? — A. Yes. Q. I think you gave him a little further than that? — A. Perhaps we did. Q. When his wife was coming over? — A. His wife came over two or three weeks after him. • Q. You gave him transportation up to Detroit to meet her, and from where she lived to Detroit, and then both back from Detroit to St. Thomas? — A. We may have done tliat. Q. It is your usual way, at any rate, is it not, to give them transportation? — A. Yes, we do that over our own lines, but we do not ask foreign companie.s Q. You did in this case, I think ? — A. I am quite sure we did not. Q. The Wabash? — A. Not when he came for employment. Q. With his wife? — A. That was a month after he came up that his wife came up ; he had been working for the company a month. Q. In that case you would make an exception? — A. Yes, that is the usual rule — to give employees family transportation. Q. He wasnot on the Missouri Pacific? — A. Not at that time. Q. He left yesterday morning, did he not? — A. Yes, sir; he resigned last week, and he left yesterday morning. Q. When did he resign? — A. Thursday or Friday, I believe. Q. It is only fair to give some of your men back to the Missouri Pacific after tak- ing so many from them? — A. I think so. Q. Have you anything to do with the Civil Engineers Department? — A. No, sir. Q. Who has charge of that? — A. Mr. Alfred, of Detroit. Q. Do you know anything about Mr. Leseur's appointment? — A. Nothing at all. Q. Or any one in that department ? — A. No, sir. Q. Had you anything to do with Mr. Groening's appointment? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know him ? — A. Yes. Q. Did you know him before he came here? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know where he came from ? — A. I heard him say I think he came from either Detroit or Saginaw. Q. What position has he ? — A. General foreman in the shop. Q. Who has charge of the round-house now? — A. Mr. Griffith. Q. How long has ho been in there? — A. About two months. Q. Where did he come from? — A. Walkerville. Q. How long had he been there? — A. He had been there a month or two, he was here formerly and was sent to Walkerville at his request; he lived there, and when Mr. Gillam left we brought him back, asked him to come back. Q. Is he a Canadian? — A. I don't know. Q. You don't know what he is? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know what Mr. Groening is? — A. No, sir, never asked him. Q. Who is the storekeeper? — A. Mr. Junker is storekeeper. Q. When was he appointed ?^A. Two or three months ago. Q. Where was he when he was appointed? — A. I don't know. Q. Who appointed' him? — A. The general storekeeper. Q. Who is he?— A. Mr. Atherton. Q. In Detroit? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He appointed him there ? — A. I presume he did, I did not see him, but he came over here. Q. Who is your timekeeper? — A. Mr. Weelihan. Q. How long has he been in charge? — A. I d'on't know; h© was here when I came. Q. Did you know Mr. McKay, the former chief engineer? — A. I met him three or four months ago; I never knew him before. 16 , REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Had he occupied that position as chief engineer of that division when you were appointed? — A. No, sir, Mr. Harris was appointed assistant engineer when I was ap- pointed, Elbout that time, and I think the same day. Q. Mr. Harris succeeded Mr. McKay ?^A. Yes. Q. Where is Mr. Harris now? — A. I think he is in Detroit. Q. Is he an American? — A. I have no idea. Q. Was he appointed from Detroit to succeed Mr. McKay ? — ^A. Yes, sir, he was in the chief engineer's office, I brieve. Q. Who Q'id Mr. Gary succeed? — A. Mr. Kirkpatrick, I think his name was. Q. Was Kirkpatrick under you ? — A. He was under the chief despatcher. Q. You had no personal knowledge of him? — A. Yes, I knew he was there. Q. Was he a good despatcher ? — A. No, sir. Q. He was not? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you discharge him? — A. He resigned. Q. Why? — A. I supppose he resigned for the same reason that Mr. Cameron did. Q. Was he requested to resign? — A. No, sir. Q. Was his life made miserable for him because he could not do the work? — A. I hope not. Q. Why did he resign ? — A. He probably thought he could not do his work. Q. Where is he now? — A. I have no idea. Q. Was he found fault with? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it because of that he resigned ? — A. I think so. Q. Who else was there there that acted as train despatcher ?-^A. Mr. Bailey, Mr. Amum and Mr. Kirkpatrick. Q. Those are trick despatchers? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was not there a Mr. Knight there? — A. Yes. Q. Is he still in charge? — A. No, sir. Q. When did he leave the service ? — A. He left two or three months ago, I just do not know the date, I would say three months ago. Q. Was he discharged? — ^A. He was relieved. Q. That is a nicer way of putting ii? — A. Yes. Q. It does not hurt so much? — A. I do not think so. Q. Why was he relieved? — A. For unsatisfactory service. Q. Where is he now, have you re-appointed him ? — A. He is an agent on the line. I think he is at C-ourtright, and I believe he resigned from there. Q. Mr. Foreman told me he had resigned from there after you had appointed him to that position at Oourtright as agent? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he fill that satisfactorily? — A. I believe he said he could not fill it; I did not know that he was not satisfactory — I heard no serious complaint. He felt he did not know enough about the work. Q. And you filled that with some person else? — A. Yes. Q. Do you know Mr. Britton, the district passenger agent? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long has he been there? — A. I cannot tell you. Q. He was there before you? — A. Yes. Q. And you do not know who his predecessor was ? — A. No, sir. Q. , Would it be difficult to find a Canadian to act as district passenger agent ? — A. I think Mr. Moeller, general passenger agent, could answer that better than I. Q. Don't you know sufficient about the running of the line to know that? — A. From toy knowledge of Canadians I should say there are a great many Canadians could fill that position. Q. But you do not know what means were taken to appoint one ? — A. No, sir, that is entirely out of my department and I know nothing about that. Q. What means were taken to appoint a Canadian in the place of Kirkpatrick? — A. About the same means that we have tried before; I enquired at different times of my associates in our business if they knew of any despatchers who were willing to work. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 17 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Tour associates would be on the Pfere Marquette? — A. No, the people we do busi- ness with, the Wabash, Grand Trunk and Michigan Central. Q. Did you apply to the Grand Trunk? — A. I discussed the matter with their officials. Q. Which one ? — A. Mr. Ensell, trainmaster, and I spoke to Mr. Cunningham. Q. Do you remember when you did that?— A. No, sir. Q. What other means besides speaking to them were taken to fill the position by a Canadian? — A. None at all; I did not hear of any one that was recommended as being competent to fill the position, and had no one that I thought was competent. Q. Who is your present stenographer? — A. Mr. O'Loughlin. Q. When was he appointed? — A. In December. Q. By whom? — A. He was employed by my office, by me. Q. Where was he at the time of his employment? — A. Some place in Ohio. Q. Springfield? — A. I do not remember the town, I did not pay enough attention to it. Q. Did you know him personally before? — A. No, sir. Q. How did you get acquainted with him? — ^A. A letter of application from him was referred to me by the Detroit office. Q. What means did you take to ascertain whether he would accept? — A. I wrote him, I think, or telegraphed him, I don't know which. Q. Who was in charge of that position at the time of his appointment? — A. They had a couple of little girls in the office; I don't know whether they were in charge or not. Q. Do you know who was in charge? — A. They work for the office generally, I don't know that either one of them is specified as stenographer to the superintendent. Q. You know whom you look to for the purpose of using as your secretary? — A. I used both of them, tried to use them once or twice. Q. And did not succeed in getting good work? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you try to get Canadian stenographers to take their place? — A. Tes, sir. Q. How? — A. The same method, inquiring. Q. Where did you inquire ? — A. Round, over town and anywhere generally, every- where to get a stenographer. Q. Can you give me any particular place? — A. Mr. Foreman, the chief derk in the office. Q. It was through him? — A. Tes, he did the work for me. Q. Tou did not put an ad. in the papers, a stenographer for the Pere Marquette? — A. No, sir, I do not remember an ad. ; there might have been, but I don't think there was. Q. That is the usual way of getting a stenographer? — A. No, I don't think so, I never have done it in my life. Q. Tou have not been employing many here? — A. Not here, but over the country I have employed quite a number, and I never advertised. Q. Do you think it would be a difficult thing to get a Canadian stenographer ? — A. It was at that time. Q. How long did you try to get one ? — A. A couple of weeks, I guess, we were try- ing to get a stenographer. Q. To take the place of these girls ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Were they not efficient ? — A. No, sir. Q. Have you lady stenographers now ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. How many ? — A. One. Q. Employed by you since these two young women left ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. What is this lady's name? — A. Miss Davis. Q. How long have you had her ? — A. Three or four months. Q. What were you paying Miss Maclean as stenographer? — A. I don't remember. I think Mr. Foreman will remember, I think it was $25 to $35 a month, perhaps $40. Q. How much are you paying Mr. O'Loughlin ? — A. $60. Q. Is he an American? — A. I think he is. 36d—2 j[8 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Tou do not know anything about the air-brake officers ? — A. No, sir. Q. Who would know about them?— A. Mr. McManamy. Q. He would come under Mr. McManamy's department ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Tou report to Detroit, I suppose, and take your instructions from Detroit ?— A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me where Mr. Cameron is ? — A. No, sir. Q. Nor Mr. Woollatt ?— A. Mr. Woollatt lives at Walkerville. Q. He still lives there?— A. Yes. Q. I was communicating, but I have not heard whether he is there or not ? — ^A. He is not at home very much, he is in the coal business ; I meet him on the road oc- casionally. Q. Who did Mr. Groening succeed ? — A. Mr. Stafford. Q. Where is he ?— A. In Grand Rapids. Q. Is he still in the service of the company? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he an American ? — A. I think he is, he is either an American or an Eng- lishman, he is from England. Q. When was he appointed to St. Thomas ? — A. About first January. Q. And who did he succeed ? — A. Mr. Eoyce. Q. Where is Mr. Eoyee ?— A. I can't tell. Q. Was he discharged ? — ^A. I cannot tell you that, he was working for Mr. Mc- Manamy. Q. Can you give me exactly that telegram which was sent to Mr. Gilhula ?— A. I told him I had a vacancy that would pay a certain amount. Q. $110 ? — A. I think it was, and asked him to come up for interview. Q. You had no correspondence, I understood you to say, with reference to Mr. Greening's appointment ? — A. No, sir. Q. Is there anything you would like to say yourself ? I am sorry Mr. Ooburn is not here to ask for anything which he thinks was possible in your interest. If he comes I am quite willing he should be allowed to ask you anything he wishes. — ^A. I do not think of anything we can say, except statements that are taken as complaining of our discrimination; I would like very much to have an opportunity to answer them if that would be given. Q. Can you answer, then, further than you have done ? — A. I think not, but 1 would like to ask you to find out who the men are that are working for the company now, and if they are not, why they are not working for the company, and satisfy your- self. Q. That is what I am going to try to do with your assistance. I am going to make a further examination of the books at Mr. McManamy's office to-night, and I may ask you something to-morrow if necessary. — A. Could you do that to-morrow morning ? Q. Yes, I will try to get through to-night and let you off to-morrow. Everett E. Cain, sworn, examined : By the Oommissioner : Q. You are trainmaster on the Pere Marquette Eailway? — A. That is my title. Q. An American citizen ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you appointed ? — A. I think it was December 22. Q. When were you first spoken to with reference to the appointment ? — A. Well, Mr. Pyeatt was in St. Louis, I don't know just what time, I think the first time I talked to him about comirg to Canada was possibly in November, although he had no encouragement to offer me then. I told him I was going to be out of a position De- cember 1st, and as I had been with those people, of course I naturally thought I could ALIENS ON PEBE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 19 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d get a position with, them again, if they had anything. He knew of nothing then. He had not been appointed here at that time, but I told him after I was relieved there I would very likely come to Detroit, and I did; I don't just remember what time, and I came up there and came out to Blenheim and met him, and we talked over the mat- ter, and I was approached about the position of trainmaster at that time, and I told him I would accept it, and I went back home. I did not want to come here till the first of the year, but I did come a little earlier, I changed my mind and came up here. I left St. Louis December 21, I am pretty near sure, and I came right through over the Wabash to St. Thomas. I had transportation over lines Q. Were you in. the employ of the Pere Marquette before that ? — A. No, sir, I was in the employ of the Missouri Pacific. ' Q. Tou knew Mr. Pyeatt at that time, when you were on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. Yes. Q. Por about seven years, I think he mentioned ? — A. Something like that, we were schoolboys together. Q. Are you not incorrect in saying that he was not appointed to this position as superintendent when he saw you in St. Louis ? — A. When I first spoke to him no Q. I think he said he waa ? — ^A. H© was down to St. Louis twice; I spoke to him in November. Q. I thought it was December 1 ? — ^A No, I told him I would be out of employ- ment about December 1. Q. When did you see him the second time ? — A. I do not just know what time it was in December. Q. Li St. Louis again ? — A. Tes. Q. Did he offer you a position then ? — ^A. Tes. Q. As trainmaster ?— A. He did not offer me a position exactly, only he told me to come up, he mentioned a position and told me I might come up here and see him. I had nothing to do but do that, and I came up. Q. Can you give me that date ? — ^A. When I came up ? Q. No, when he told you ? — A. No, I have no idea. Q. That if you came up he would see what he could do for you? — A. I don't know, I could not tell. Q. I think he said it was about the 10th or 12th of December ? — ^A. Possibly bo, something like that. My position, I might say, ended after the first December. I was in charge of World's Fair matters, and the Fair was over December 1. Q. Tou were on the Missouri then ? — ^A. Tes. Q. As train master ? — ^A. No, sir, chief clerk to the superintendent of transporta- tion, Missouri Pacific. Q. How did the conversation come up ? — A. Which conversation ? Q. About coming over here ? — ^A. Just in the course of events, a man was look- ing for a position, he would very likely, if he had some friend that had a position that possibly had influence enough to get him another one, he would ask for one. Q. Mr. Pyeatt thought that possibly you had an intuition that there was a vac- ancy to be provided for you because of his appointment here and your vacancy oc- curring ? — A. It might have been. Q. Let us see what was actually said at St. Louis about your coming here ? — A. When I first talked to him he had nothing in sight. Q. He was not appointed then himself? — A. No. Q. Then in the second week of December you saw him there again ? — A. Some time along about then, I do not remember the exact date. Q. What was the conversation you had with him then; he had been appointed then ? — ^A. Tes, he thought he could give me a position and told me to come up. Q. As tra^p master ? — A. Well, I really believe at that time he expected to put me in as chief despatcher, yes, that position was open. 20 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. And because of that conversation you came over four or five days after- . wards ? — A. No, it was a week or ten days. Q. Because of tliat conversation ? — A. Yes. I came liere December 21, and I was made train master instead of chief despateher. Q. You were not sorry for it ?— A. It did not make any difference to me. Q. Forty dollars a month ? — A. Not a bit, that was not so much; I had a posi- tion; not working for the money exactly. Q. I thought the most of us were ? — A. I mean when you are out of a position you want one no matter what it is. Q. You were out of a position on the 1st December ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And because of that conversation with Mr. Pyeatt you came here and he em- ployed you ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You think you reached here about the 21st or 22nd ? — A. It was the 22nd. Q. Who was here first, you or Gilhula? — A. Gilhula I think was out learn- ing the road the day I got here; he had come in another way, and he had come over our line. Q. And got ahead of you ? — A. Yes, I did not know Mr. Gilhula was here before. Q. You knew Gilhula before ? — A. Yes, I knew him in St. Louis, just slightly acquainted, I did not know Mr. Gilhula well; we had held the same position there at different times. Q. How long was he on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. I don't know, I did not know him till I went to St. Louis. Q. How long ago was that ? — A. I went to- St. Louis a year ago last September. Q. Was he living in St. Louis ? — A. He was until I went -fliere, I relieved him. Q. He was chief clerk for the transportation superintendent ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did he go after being relieved ? — A. I don't know. Q. He left the road, did he ? — A. I think he did. Q. Went to Eock Island ? — A. I could not tell just what road he did go on; he went up Iowa way, I think. Q. Did you receive transportation to St. Thomas ? — A. I had transportation; I was pretty well acquainted wlien I was with the Missouri Pacific, I had annuals over other lines. Q. You received $150 a month from the moment you took charge ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have not they increased your salary since you have been here ? — A. They have not said anything aboirt it yet. Q. Looking for it ? — I would be glad to have them say something of that kind. Q. I thought they had increased all round ? — A. They increased some of the people in the office. Q. Inferior positions ? — A. Some of the men in the office, yes, were increased, I think most of them got increased in the office, but I did not, and I felt rather slighted about that. Q. What condition did you find the road in when you came ? — A. I thought it was about the worst I ever saw, that is what I wrote home. Q. I suppose you would tell the truth when you were writing home ? — A. It was pretty bad, to tell you the truth, it looked bad in winter time, and for a man that was not used to real cold weather — ^the trains were using as high as 60 and YO hours going over the division. Q. Pretty bad winter, was it ? — A. It was pretty bad, the winter was not so bad, but they were not getting over the road. Q. What was the difficulty, the snow ? — A. Various things. Q. You were not accustomed to that down in St. Louis ? — A. I did not think I did much good by snow, I did not help the matter that way, but as Mr. Pyeatt said the power was bad and we did not have enough passing track room to properly handle it. Of course that was helped out in January a good deal by getting a few more passing tracks. ALIENS ON PEBE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 21 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Have you really improved it ? — A. Yes, I think so, they are getting over now in about ten hours. Q. Over-working the men? — A. I have not heard of any complaint, any more than what I see in the newspapers. Q. Do the newspapers say you are over-working them ? — A. Not very much. Q. I have not seen them myself ? — A. I think the London papers; the men I have talked to are very well satisfied; they are making their money a great deal easier than they did then. Q. By over- work? — A. No, we are not over-working them now; I think they are making their money a great deal easier now than then ; you take the railroad men, the ■ engineers and firemen, they will tell you they do not want to make overtime — when you are on the road over twelve hours you make overtime — and when they were on the road two or three days at a time going these IIY miles they were having some pretty hard times. Q. Was that a constant occurrence, two or three days at a time from here to Walkerville, or was it only once in a while when there was a snow drift ? — A. I could not say as to that; when I came here they were having a great deal of truoble about shortage of water; I do not think I brought any more rain with me, but we did get more water in a little while; we had some soft weather. Q. Providence assisted you ? — A. Possibly; you could not judge why they were having such a hard time before, that is a man that had not been here, and I am not saying anything about the people that were here ahead of me, but I say the road at that time, when I came here, I thought was about as bad as I had worked for. Q. What was the cause of all that? — A. The main thing was the power; the trains were being delayed, they were handling too many cars ; they did not give them a chance to get over the road. Q. Who was the cause of all that? — A. I cannot tell you who was the cause; I presume the train master could have cut the trains down so that they could have gotten over the road; that is onie of the first things we did was to get them to rigging that they could handle; if they found out they could not handle it, reduce it again, rating the engines, I mean. I think that made quite a difference in the time they used on the line. I do not say who was the cause. He may have had his instructions. I got mine, and I was told to get them over the road no inatter what Q. Prom whom did you get your instructions? — A. Mr. Pyeatt, I am working driectly under him. Q. Tou do not know whether the weather was to blame or what else was to blame than the man who had charge? — A. No, I would not say as to that. Q. Tou were only here since December? — A. December 22nd. Q. And the conditions have beten rather severe since then? — A. We had some very severe weather' in February, but not as bad as expected. The weather here I imagined was a good deal worse than it was in fact; I do not think it was so inuch worse than it was in St. Louis. Q. There was a little snow and ice? — A. A little more snow, but I did not Bufier any more than I did there. Q. What men do you appoint? — A. Brakemen, conductors, baggagemen, &c. Q. Have you appointed many since you took charge? — A. Quite a good many. I have hired most anybody that came along that had any experience at the time; some times you are short of men, and other times you have more than you want. Q. Tou do not ask them about their nationality? — A. No, just see that they are white and know a little of something and I hire them. Q. Tou draw the line at white? — A. Tes, I would not hire a colored man as a brakeman or conductor; I might use him as a porter somewhere. Q. What wages were you getting when you were appointed here? — ^A. $150 a month; got the same. Q. Tou got the same wages as you are now getting at the time that you were ap- pointed here ? — A. I have had the saine thing here since I have been appointed. 22 REPORT OF ROYAL OOMMISSIOlSf 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. What wages had you been receiving on the Missouri Pacific? — A. $1Y5. Q. However, you were laid off on the first December?— A. Yes, my position had played out; I had taten it for the period during the World's Fair; that was all. Q. "Was that a larger salary than they usually gave?— A. Yes, sir, it was $40 a month increase over what they had been paying chief clerks; in fact I was just an extra man that came in there with that title to handle that passenger traffic. Q. So that you got $40 a month more than the ordinary clerk would have go't?— A. Yes. I kept another chief clerk under me. Q. Did you ever act as train master before? — ^A. No. Q. Never had any experience of that before? — A. I have been practically in charge several times where I have been chief despatcher when the train master was away, when he would get leave of absence. Q. How long have you acted as chief despatcher ? — ^A. I have acted as chief des- patcher in several different places on the Missouri Pacific system, and I do not know just how long. Q. Up to the time of your present employment you have acted as chief despatcher but not as train master ? — A. No, sir. Q. And as chief despatcher what was your salary? — A. $150; the same as I get here. Q. It was just as good a position as you have ? — -A. Yes, in fact it was a little more, I do not know as I am going up at all. James E. Gilhula, sworn, examined : By the Commissioner : Q. You were born in the county of Kent ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. About forty years ago ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You left there about twenty years ago ? — A. Yes. Q. And went west ? — ^A. Yes. Q. Struck the Missouri Pacific ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you on the Missouri Pacific? — A. Eighteen years. Q. As what ? — A. I commenced to work for them as telegraph operator in the despatcher's office, shortly after I went there I was made train despatcher, and about two years before I left there I was made chief despatcher. Q. What salary were you receiving then ? — A. I first received $70 a month, and then it was increased to $80 a month as operator, and then when I first went to work as train despatcher I got $110, and that gradually increased to $120. Q. How much are you getting to-day here? — A. $110. Q. Has it not been increased lately ? — A. No, sir. Q. I thought I saw something that you were getting $125 ?— A. No, sir. Q. Where were you situated or settled at that time on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. In St. Louis, Missouri. Q. All the time ? — A. Yes, with the exception of about four months, I was located at Jefferson City. Q. Married there ? — ^A. I got married while I was in St. Louis. Q. Your family with you here ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You received transportation when you came here ? — A. No, I got transporta- tion myself. Q. Have you brought your wife and family with you ? — A. Not when I came here. Q. You subsequently have brought them here ? — A. Yes. Q. And thejr have given you transportation ? — A. Well, I have got it on my own responsibility. Q. That is without the cash down ? — A. The PSre Marquette did not get it for me. Q. You had sufficient infiuence with the other roads ? — A. Yes. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 23 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Did you come over the Pere Marquette road when your wife and family came I A. No, they came over the Wabash. Q. And you came over the Wabash? — A. I came down as far as Detroit over the Wabash, and then I went over the line here. Q. You applied for a position to Mr. Pyeatt ? — A. Yes. Q. When was that ? — A. That was about November 15. Q. What position did you ask for ? — A. I was asking for a position as train des- patcher or chief despatcher. Q. You -had known him five or six years ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew of his appointment as superintendent of this division ? — A. Yes, I did. Q. And have you got a copy of the letter you wrote to him ? — A. No, I made a personal application to him. Q. Where ? — A. At Detroit at the time I applied to him. Q. He was not then superintendent ? — A. No. Q. That was about the middle of November? — A. Yes. Q. Why did you apply to him ? — A. I knew him personally, and he was chief clerk for the general manager, and our acquaintance, I naturally stepped around to ask him if he thought I could get employment over here in Canada. Q. After he was appointed as superintendent did you write to him ? — A. No, sir. Q. How did you communicate with him ? — A. He telegraphed me to come over here and see him, and he thought he could Q. Did he offer you a position? — A. Yes, he offered the position of chief des pateher. Q. Did he state the salary ? — A. I think it was $110. Q. You think he mentioned that ? — I think he did, I have not got the telegram^ Q. What did you do upon receiving the telegram ? — A. I think I replied Q. You accepted it ? — ^A. I do not know as I altogether accepted it. Q. What did you do ? — A. I came over here to see him. Q. Did you reply to the telegram ? — ^A. Yes. Q. What was the reply? — ^A. I could not say the words, it gave him to under- stand I would accept the position, naturally I was anxious to come over here, and he knew that. Q. Were you out of employment at that time ? — A. Virtually so. Q. Not doing anything ? — A. Well, I was employed by the Wabash just during the World's Pair trafBc there, and that was at an end at that time, and they were re- ducing their forces on account of it. Q. You and Cain were pretty much in the same boat ? — A. Yes, we were World's Pair people. Q. I hope you got an extra salary for that ? — A. No, I was getting just aboif what I got here. . Q. You were not as fortunate as Mr. Cain ? — A. No. Q. Do you employ the despatchers under you ? — A. I recommend them for em- ployment. -' Q. Have you recommended any since your appointment ? — A. I recommended Mr. Bailey to be reinstated, I recommended the appointment of despatchers, Mr. Andress. Q. Any person else ? — A. I recommended Mr. Gary, at the time we could not get any one else. Q. Where was he ? — A. He was looking for a position. Q. You knew him over on the Missouri Pacific ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you not know him over in the States ? — A. No, sir. Q. How did you get acquainted with him ? — A. Through an application here for employment from him. 24 REPORT OF ROYAL OOMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Did you try to get a Canadian to take that position ?— A. Well, I believe I did, I inquired of the "Wabash of any of the despatchers over there. Q. Who -was the Wabash man you inquired of there ?— A. Mr. McOlarty. Q. When did you ask him about it ?— A. I think I asked him over the telephone. Q. Tou did not know sufficient about the Canadian men to make inquiries among them ? — A. No, I was not acquainted with them. Q. McOlarty was the only one you knew ? — A. Yes. Q. He was the only one you did ask ?— A. I think I asked Mr. Babbit of the Michigan Central when I was over there one day, but he told me he did not have any one he could spare. Q. How long were you in the States before you became an American citizen ?— A. 1 lived there about seven years. Q. And then you took out papers there ? — ^A. Yes. Q. Did you vote ? — A. I voted a couple of times. Q. And you have lived continuously there since you left twenty years ago until you were appointed here ? — A. Yes, I always felt I was more a Canadian than I was an American, though. Q. jTave you not been speaking rather harshly against Canadian, railroad men ? —A. No. Q. Of late ?— A. No, sir. Q. Just think ?— A. No. Q. Because I have heard that you have, that you have been rather havsh on the Car.iidian railroad despatchers ? — A. No, not any more than was necessa-y ro use lis- ciplino to get proper work. Q. Have you spoken calling them rather harsh names ? — A. No, I do not know as I have. Q. Possibly it might not be hard in your estimation? — A. Well, I do not know what you mean. Q. Have you called them damn Canadians ? — A. I consider myself a Canadian. Q. That is not quite a straight answer, have you called them damn Canadians ? — A. No, sir. Q. Not G damn Canadians ? — A. No, sir. Q. Some men have stated they have heard you saying that, would they be saying what is untrue if they swear to that ? — A. I think they would, I do not use language of that kind. Q. You know whether they would or not, you would know whether you did say that or not ? — A. I do not know what reason I would have for saying that. Q. Do not argrue ; the question is whether you did or not, and you know better than I do, and it is for you to answer on your oath whether you did or not ? — A. I will answer no. Q. Tou never called them that? — ^A. No. sir. * Q. Never said they were damn Canadians ? — A. No, sir. Q. And you would show these damn Canadians how an American crew could work ? — A. No, sir. ^ Q. Anything of that nature ? — A. No, sir. Q. So that any man who swears he heard you saying that won't be swearing to what is true ? — A. I do not thi«k he will. Q. What were the terms you used with reference to Canadians ? — A. I do not remember of any time calling or saying any words of that kind. Q. Are you in the habit of using those words at all ? — A. It would be spoken as a by-word; if I would say damn Canadians I would consider I was damned m.vself. Q. Never mind arguing, because when a man Oegins to argue it is not a very good sign; it looks as if he was shielding a straight answer by argument, and that is not fair to you or me; you know what words you did use; I do not. Others have stated that you have used these words, have you or have you not ? — A. I have not. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 25 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. What words have you used? — A. I do not know that I have use any words that are harsh ; sometimes things will annoy you and it is often the case you will make use of a by-word that would not be considered any attack, but for me to viciously Bay damn 'Canadians I did not. Q. Are you accustomed to using such words? — A. I guess all railroad men swear some times. Q. Pyeatt would not swear? — A. I do not know about that. Q. You have your doubts about that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that you may have used such words without intent? — A. If any words like that were used, it was not, I assure you, intended, because I have tried to do every- thing I could for the Canadians since I have been here, and I believe my work, if it was investigated, would show that. Q. Then I will not ask you anything further about that, because that is between yourself and those who heard you. Gary you appointed under you; he has since re- signed and gone back to the Missouri Pacific ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many Missouri Pacific men have you on this road now? — A. I do not think we have_any. Q. You won't go back on Cain? — A. I thought you had reference to those under my einploy. Q. No, I mean all? — A. I do not know, Mr. Cain, I presume. Q. Anybody else — ^Mr. Gilhula; Mr. Cain was once a Missouri Pacific man? — A. 5rea. I used to work for the Canada Southern one time. At this point Mr. Coburn, counsel for the Pere Marquette railroad, appeared. The Commissioner. — Q. Was Gillam a Missouri man too ? — A. I do not know him. Q. So there are only three of you now at the head from the Missouri Pacific ? — A. I did not come from the Missouri Pacific here. Q. Well, do not go back on the Missouri Pacific now; the Missouri Pacific did well for you for eighteen years? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are a pretty good Missouri man ; you left the Missouri Pacific at the time the World's Pair was over ? — A. No, sir. Q. When did you leave ? — A. I left the Missouri Pacific almost about seven months before the World's Pair had been opened, and I went to work for a construction com- pany, and after they got through with their contracts I was out of employment, and I secured a position as extra despatcher on the Wabash, and when the World's Pair traffic opened up and they put on extra men, I fell heir to one of their jobs ; that was on the Wabash. Q. Where did you go after leaving the Wabash? — A. I came over here just about the time they were dissolving their force, they had separated one department. Q. 'Can you tell me the date of that telegram from Mr. Pyeatt to you ? — A. I think it was about the lYth Decelnber. Q. Who did you find in charge when you came here? — A. I think Mr. Arnum was acting. Q. Was he an efficient despatcher? — A. Yes, he was doing very well, fair work. Q. Would he be an efficient chief despatcher? — A. I do not know that I am cap- able to judge. Q. I don't know, you have been a long time at that? — A. I have never seen any of his work as chief despatcher. Q. You have seen his work as a despatcher? — A. Yes. Q. And is it satisfactory? — A. Yes. Q. Who else have you besides Mr. Arnum as despatcher ? — A. Mr. Bailey. Q. Is his work satisfactory? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Any one else besides Mr. Bailey? — A. Mr. Black. Q. Where did he come from? — A. He was promoted here from telegraph operator out on the line. Q. He is a Canadian? — A. Yes Q. And Mr. Bailey a Canadian ? — A. I think he is. 26 REPORT OF ROYAL 00MM18SI0N 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. And Mr. Arnum? — A. I could not say. Q. Have you any doubts about what his nationality is ? — ^A. I think he is a Cana- dian. Q. Who other besides Gary did you appoint? — A. Well, I recommended the re- instatement of Mr. Bailey. Q. Not as chief despatcher? — A. No, as despatcher. Q. He was chief despatcher at one tiine ? — A- I think he was ; I did not know him then. Q. He was on your recommendation reappointed ? — A. He was reinstated. Q. Any one else besides Mr. Gary ? — A. Mr. Andress has just been appointed des- patcher. Q. And that is all?— A. Yes. Q. Is there anything else you can give me, any information about this? — A. I do not know anything. Q. Do not speak harsh against Canadians after this. — ^A. I do not think you are treating me justly in that. Q. If the statements are correct at all, I am not treating you harsh, I can assure you, because it is not one place, but it is several places they said you have repeated very objectionable words against Canadians; I was very much surprised to hear that you were a born Canadian and had done that? — A. I am surprised the charges were made, and I would like to have the opportunity of denying them. Q. You have the opportunity and we will possibly have here some evidence to show whether your recollection is as good as theirs. Owen S. Leseub, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner : Q. You are the chief engineer for the Buffalo division of the Pere Marquette, I understand ? — A. I am assistant engineer of the Pere Marquette Railroad, in charge of the Buffalo division. Q. Who is the chief engineer ? — A. F. H. Alfred, with headquarters in Detroit. Q. And your headquarters are in St. Thomas ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you appointed to that position ? — A. I came to St. Thomas, I think, the 20th or 22nd February. Q. This year ? — A. This present year. Q. Who sent you here ?— A. Mr. P. H. Alfred. Q. What were you doing at the time you were sent here ? — A. I was assistant engineer in the Pere Marquette Railroad at different kinds of work — whatever there was to do. Q. Not anything definite, you had no headquarters, I mean, as distinct from Mr. Alfred ?— A. No, sir. Q. You have headquarters now as distinct ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that this was a new position to the one you formerly occupied ? — ^A. My title is the same, it is only a different employment. Q. At what salary are you appointed? — A. $150. Q. And expenses ? — A. Some expenses. Q. When you were out on the road ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your salary previous to your appointment in February last ? — A. I have been receiving from $125 to $160 per month ever since I have been with ".he PSre Marquette. Q. What were you actually getting when you were appointed in February last I — A. I think at that time, in February, I think I only got $125, and I had all expenses. Q. What are your duties ? — A- I am in charge of maintenance and construction. Q. Are the duties rather extensive at the present moment ? — A. No more so than any position of that kind. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 27 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Are they increasing ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many of a staff have you under you ? — A. In my immediate office ? Q. Yes ? — ^A. I have a stenographer, and an instrument man, and a rod man, at present. Q. Who are they? — A. George Osborne is the instrument man, and Gordon Daw- son is clerk and stenographer, and Eoy Hammond is rodman. Q. You have no draughtsman at present ? — A. No, sir. Q. Have you requested the appointment of a draughtsman ? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you require further assistance than you are having ? — A. It will be likely we will have to increase the force. Q. To what extent ? — A. I cannot say, it depends on what we have to do. Q. You have always been kept busy since your appointment ? — A. Yes. Q. Busy for three or four men ? — A. We have had plenty to do. Q. Por that staff you have ? — ^A. Yes. Q. You have had that staff since your appointment ? — A. I increased it one man. Q. Which man ? — A. Mr. Eoy Hammond. Q. When did you appoint him ? — A. Some time this month. Q. Where is he now ? — A. He is in the office. Q. Is he a Canadian ? — A. I do not know, I suppose he is, he lives here in St. Thomas. Q. You are an American citizen yourself ? — A. Yes. Q. Who is your immediate predecessor ? — ^A. W. H. Harris, I guess I have not got the .initials right, J. W., I think, are the initials. Q. Where is he now ? — A. He is still with the company, either in Detroit or Pud- dington. Q. Is he an American, too ? — A. Yes. Q. When was he appointed ? — A. Some time in December of last year or perhaps last November. Q. Was he the assistant chief, just the same position as you are ? — A. His title was assistant engineer. Q. The same position as you occupy to-day ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was it that he succeeded ? — A. I think Mr. Owen McKay. Q. Do you know Mr. McKay ? — A. Yes. Q. He is a Canadian ? — ^A. I think he is. Q. How long was he on the road as assistant ;n jineer ?^A. Since its consiruc- ticn, or almost since the first. Q. Since the construction of the road ? — A. Ye3. Q. That is the road from Walkerville east? — A. Yes, sir, I think he was not en the roao! when it first started, but he was before it got a great ways out. Q. Did he resign? — A. I don't know. Q. Do you know when he left the road? — A. I think about the time Mr. Harris came here — no, he was still with the company at that time, in fact I do not know, but he is with them yet. Q. You think he has something to do with them yet? — A. -1 know he has some duties. Q. Of what nature? — A. Of a special nature. Q. Only occasional duties? — A. Yes. Q. Why is it he has occasional duties, is it because he knows so much about the road? — A. No, whenever they have certain kinds of work they want done they employ Mr. McKay. Q. What salary are you paying Mr. Osborne? — A. $80. Q. When diet you appoint him? — A. He was here when I came. Q. You came in February? — A. Yes. Q. He came when ? — ^A. Some time in the fall. Q. December or January? — A. As early as December anyway, I do not know bat before. 28 REPORT OF ROYAL OOMMIsaiON 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Where did he come from? — A. He haa been with the Fere Marquette for a number of years. Q. Where? — A. Two years ago he was on the Chicago division with me. Q. In the United States? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he appointed from there to here — I think he came from Saginaw ? — A. He has lived in Saginaw. Q. He is a young unmarried' man? — A. He is not married. Q. Then from Saginaw he came to St. Thomas?— A. He was down at Welland for quite a time. Q. Tou did not appoint him? — A. No. Q. Tou do not know whether Mr. Harris did ? — A. No. Q. Are there any Canadian civil engineers qualified for the position you occupy? — A. I presume there are. ~ Q. Tou have never had occasion to inquire? — A. No. George M. Osborne^ sworn, examined. By the Commissioner: Q. What is your position with the Pere Marquette Eailway ? — A. Instrument man. Q. And leveller, I suppose? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Fully occupied? — A. Tes. Q. Since when? — A. I will be here in St. Thomas since January 22. Q. I refer to St. Thomas; I suppose your appointment here is from the time you came here? — A. Tes. Q. Who appointed you here? — A. Mr. Alfred appointed me, I came from Welland. Q. Where is Mr. Alfred?— A. Detroit. Q. Is that where he appointed you? — A. I came from Welland. Q. Where did' he appoint you ? — ^A. At Detroit. Q. When was it he appointed you ? — A About the latter part of January some time. Q. Before January 22? — A. Tes, sir. Q. At what salary?— A. $80. Q. As inatrumnt man? — A. Tes. Q. Tou had been in the service of the company previous to that? — A. Tes, sir. Q. As instrument man? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Where?- A. All over. Q. Could you give me anything more definite ? — A. Welland, Steiner and different places on different divisions. Q. In Canada? — A. At Welland in Canada. Q. Only at Welland in Canada? — ^A. Tes, sir. Q. How long were you at Welland in Canada? — A. About a month or six weeks. Q. Immediately previous to January 22? — A. Tes. Q. And prior to that you were always occupied in the United' States ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Tou were born in the United States? — A. Tes. Q. How many years ago was that? — A. Twenty-five. Q. Tou are an American citizen, I suppose? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Where did you live in the States? — A. Saginaw, Michigan. Q. How long have you been connected with the Pere Marquette ?— A. About six years. Q. As instrument man all the time? — A. No, sir. Q. In what capacity? — A. Axeman, chainman. Q. Always with civil engineers? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Tou have grown up in that way? — A. Yes. Q. I understand you are not a married man? — A. No, sir. ALIENS ON FERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 29 w^SSIONAL PAPER N6. 36d Stewart Austin, sworn, examined. Bt/ the Commissioner: Q. You live at Walkerville? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been living there for a number of years ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. In tbe service of the Pere Marquette Railway Company? — A. Yes, sir, and the Lake Erie and Detroit. Q. Before the Pere Marquette? — ^A. Yes. Q. What positions have you filled there ? — A. Mechanical superintendent. Q. Do you still fill that position ? — A. No. Q. Why ? — A. I resigned. Q. Why ?— A. In the faU of 1903. Q. Why ? — A. I thought they were getting a little too much for me, a little too much on my head, and I was getting up in years, and I thought I would step down a little bit. Q. Was there fault being found with your work ? — A. No, sir, no fault that I am aware of. Q. Was there too much work for you ? — A. They were getting too many engines, too much to do. Q. You could do one engine, but when it came to two, that was one too many ? — ^A. No, we had lots of them. Q. Who has filled your position since ? — A. Mr. Christie was appointed over me, I worked for the Pere Marquette under him for some time, and then I gave up and went back running again, I was an engineer before I accepted that position, in 1898, for the Pere Marquette people; I have been thirteen years with the Lake Erie, and it was coming a little too thick on me, beginning to lose my nerve a little, and I could not sleep at night some times, so much trouble on the road, and then I went back to running again on the engine. I ran a couple of summers, I did not work in the winter time, I ran in the summer time, and Mr. McManamy and I were talking one day this last spring over at the shop and I was telling him how Mr. Christie had used me — he was master mechanic over me — and I asked him for the position of foreman in the round-house, and he said there was not going to be any foreman in the round- house there. Q. You are referring to Walkerville ? — A. Yes, and then I accepted, of course, the running of the engine for the time, and Mr. McManamy asked me if I would take the position of round-house foreman there again, and I said I would, and so I started there on the 20th of last month as round-house foreman. Q. What salary are you getting now ? — A. $70 a month. Q. Wtat salary were you getting when you were master mechanic ? — -A. $115. Q. Is the work as great now as it was when you were there, as master mechanic ? — A. Oh, yes, it is a good deal more now. Q. And you wouldn't undertake to do it now ? — A. No. Q. Not for twice the money ? — A. No. Q. So that your reduction was an honest reduction ? — A. Yes. Q. At your own request ? — A. Yes. Q. You are satisfied where you are in preference to where you were ? — A. Per- fectly satisfied. Q. You are a Oana^an? — A. Yes, sir; well, I am Scotch. Q. I was informed you had been reduced, and I was not quite certain why it was you were reduced, and for that reason I was anxious you should come and tell your story as you have done; is there anything else you would like to say in connection with the change on the road ? — A. No, I have no fault to find. Q. What works are there up there now ? — A. There is nothing there but the round-house. 30 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII , A. 1905 Q. So that you are your own master and notody to watch you there ?— A. I do not know, if anything goes wrong they soon watch me, but we have a very good man, Mr. McManamy. Q. I have heard him very highly spoken of ?— A. He is a very nice man. Q. I understand since you have charge there the works have all been removed to St. Thomas ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Tou would not undertake to come to St. Thomas ? — A. Ko. Q. How old are you now ? — A. 65 last January. Q. You are young yet ? — A. They tell me I am getting younger, I do not believe it though. Benjamin Knight, sworn, examined: Bi/ the Commissioner : Q. You live in St. Thomas ?— A. I do. Q. For how many years ? — A. About five months. Q. Where did you live before that ? — A. Ridgetown. Q. How long there ?— A. About fifteen months. Q. Where before that ? — A. Niagara Falls. Q. How long have you been in the employ of the Pere Marquette Railway ? — A. About a year and ten months. Q. Are you a Canadian ? — A. I am. Q. What are you employed at ? — A. Despatcher's operator and relieving train despatcher. Q. You were under Mr. Gilhula? — A. I was. Q. He took charge in December last ? — ^A. I think so. Q. At that time you were what he termed one of the trick despatchers ? — A. I was. Q. What salary were you receiving then ? — A. $60 a month. Q. What are they getting now ?— A. $90. Q. Were the others only getting $60 too ? — A. They were. Q. That was in December, 1904; how did you come to leave the service ? — A. I was dissatisfied with the way in which they were using me. Q. In what way were they using you? — A. Taking me from a regular trick and offering me a position lower than my present wagas. Q. Let me understand ; you were on a regular trick at $60 a month ? — A. Yes. Q. They were taking you from that and placing you where ? — A. As ag'ent or operator wherever I wanted to go on the road. Q. Away from home ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At what wages '< — A. $45. Q. What was the reason for their doing that ? — A. They claimed that I was not up to the standard, causing delays of trains. Q. Was there any real cause of their making such complaint against you ? — A. There might have been one or two cases, but not more than that. Q. During what time would there be one or two cases? — A. Shortly after Mr. Cain and Mr. Gilhula took charge. Mr. Cain went over the road on a local train, and I asked the question how long it would take them at a certain place, and they said 50 minutes, and tbey were 1 hour and 35 minutes, and consequently the crossing of the other train I had with this train that Mr. Cain was on received 1 hour and 35 minutes delay. Q. Whose fault was that ? — A. I would consider it Mr. Cain's fault. Q. Why ? — A. Because he being train master, should have given me better in- formation than that. Q. And you acted according to your instruction? — A. I acted according to my own judgment, when he told me it would be about 50 minutes. I suppose it was Mr. Cain who was practically running the train. ALIENS OX PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 31 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. He is train master ? — A. Well, of course, the conductor was running the train, but he was in charge, cleaning up the road, which I did not know he was doing; that is, cleaning up stations. Q. You did not know the nature of the work ? — A. No. Q. And instead of your thinking it was 50 minutes he thought it would be an hour and 35 minutes? — A. ~So, instead of it being 50 minutes, they were about 1 hour and 35 minutes making a point at which I had already made the arrangement to meet this train. Q. Is that the only complaint they made against you ? — A. That was the only complaint, that was verbal. Q. When was that complaint made? — A. It was about between the 15th — well, I could not say, it was in December some time. Q. Both Mr. Cain and Mr. GiUiula were not there until after December 20, at least, would that assist you in trying to find out when they complained to you? — A. I received my notice on January 1 that my work was unsatisfactory. Q. From whom did you receive that notice ? — A. Mr. Gilhula. Q. Had he given you any cause fA. Yes. ^ Q. Did you not write out an application ? — A. No, sir. Q. You arrived here about what time? — A. On February 20. Q. Having received transportation from Mr. Kellogg? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did Mr. Kellogg send you transportation or Mr. Stafford? — A. Mr. Kellogg. Q. Mr. Kellogg sent it to Terre Haute? — A. Yes, I am a little ahead of my story there. Q. Just explain it? — ^A. I got a letter from Mr. Kellogg and he said in the letter ' I enclose you transportation, Chicago to St. Thomas.' I got the letter, but there was no transportation in it. He forgot to put it in. When I got to Chicago I went to the freight office and got the transportation there at the general freight agent. Q. On the PSre Marquette?— A. Yes, sir. Q. And you arrived on a freight? — A. No, I came on passenger. Q. The freight department had passes there for passengers ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. And is your family here now? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they come with you at that time? — A. No, sir. .Q. Tour wife and family came subsequently? — A. Yes, sir. 42 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Did you get transportation for them too ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Wliat wages are you receiving? — A. $85 a month. Q. What position q'o you occupy here I — A. Foreman boiler maker. Q. When did your family arrive here?— A. Last Wednesday, I think. Q. Onlyglast Wednesday? — A. Yes. Q. Then your son also came here ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How did he come to get here? — A. He supposed he could get work here, and he asked me for a job, and I needed a man, and I put him to work. Q. That was in March last, about March 8?— A.' I do not remember what day it was, in March, along in the fore part of March. Q. That is March 8 ?— A. That is the olay he made out his application after com- ing here. Q. Did he write to you for work ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you write to him? — A. No, sir. Q. No correspondence between you at all until he arrived here? — A. No, sir. Q. How did he come to travel here?— A. I had spoken to Mr. Stafford about trans- portation for him on account of him being one of the family. Q. How old is he?— A. Twenty-one. Q. What are his duties? — A. He is a boiler maker. Q. You spoke to Mr. Stafford about him coming here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And getting work? — A. No, sir, not about work; I spoke to Mr. Stafford about getting transportation for him to come here. Q. You required a boiler maker just at that time? — A. I did not exactly need a man, no, I did not speak to Mr. Stafford for him to come here to work. Q. You required' a boiler maker at tHat time? — A. That was after he got here Q. But before he got here, did you not? — A. Not exactly, no, sir. Q. What do you mean by not exactly, you could have put a boiler maker in there if you had so desired it, you could have found work for him? — A. I do not know but what I might have had enough work that I could have put on more men if they had allowed any more. Q. You have not the privilege of employing the men as you see fit? — A. Unless I have a vacancy. Q. At that time when you came here first you had not the privilege of employing men without speaking to Mr. Stafford? — A. Yes, I had the right to hire men. Q. And can you hire men now without Mr. McManamy's consent ?~A. Yes, that is if I am in need of a man. Q. That is one of your duties ?— A, Yes, sir. Q. You came here about February 20? — A, Yes, sir. Q. Ano! you immediately became foreman? — A. Yes. Q. And continued so up to the present time? — A. Yes. Q. When was it you wrote to your son about transportation? — A. I spoke to Mr. Stafford. Q. About what time?— A. Shortly after I came here. Q. Within a week? — A. I think it was about a week. Q. What was your boy doing? — A. He was working for the Pennsylvania Eail- rcad Company at Terre Haute. Q. With the same company you had been working ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Under you? — A. No, sir. Q. Not in the same shop ? — A. Working in the same shop. Q. Were you foreman .there ? — A. No, sir. Q. So that he was working under a different boss than you ? — A, Yes, sir. Q. Then in about a week you asked Mr. Stafford for transportation for your son to come here ?^A. Yea. Q. And he arrived immediately? — A. Well, about a week after, I think. Q. You sent him the transportation? — A. Mr. Kellogg did. Q. And he arrived in consequence of receiving the transportation? — A. Yes, sir. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 43 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. And immediately he was put to work by you?— A. Not put to work until after he came here. Q. What salary?— A. 26 cents an hour. Q. 1'hat is the usual rate ? — A. Yes. Q. Tou were born in the United' States?— A. Yes. Q. And you are an American citizen ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Andhow long have you lived in the States?— A. I have lived there all the time up to the time I came over here. Q. You had not been outside before coming here? — A. No, sir. FRiinERiCK Arnum, sworn, examined : By the Oommissioner: Q. How long have you been in the service of the Pere Marquettee — A. A little over four years, that is including the Lake Erie Company. Q. You were employed by the Lake Erie Company before the Pere Marquette absorbed that company? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And since then up to tlie present time in the service of the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes. Q.- In what position? — A. Train despatcher first. Q. And now what? — A. Until the first part of December chief train despatches. Q. On December 1 you were chief train despatcher? — A. I was appointed, I sun- pose, about October 1, Q. October 1, chief despatcher? — A. Yes. Q. In whose place? — A. Mr. Bailejr's. Q. And you continued such until the first December ? — A. About the first, I would not be sure about the date. Q. Then what took place ? — A. Then the hours were so long that I asked Mr. Pyeatt if he could not give me something lighter, or something to that effect, and he asked me if I did not want the chief ship, and I told him no, that the hours were too long. Q. Then what was done? — A. Mr. Pyeatt then put me on as night train despatcher. Q. What date? — ^A. That would be probably about the second week in. December. Q. Who took charge of the chief position then? — A. Mr. Gilhula. Q. When? — A. Just shortly after I left, about the second week in December. I would not say what date. Q. You think that is about right?=rA. Somewhere around that date. Q. Not the 22nd or the 20th? — A. I could not give you the exact date. Q. Were there any complaints made against your work or your not attending to your work? — ^A. Not that I am aware of. Q. None at all to yourself? — A. Not that I am aware of. Q. You ought to be aware of them? — A. I think I would be notified. Q. Were you spoken to by Mr. Pyeatt about your not being there in time?---A. I remember one Sunday morning. Q. What was the difficulty then ? — A. I had been on duty then, I had left the office at 2 o'clock Sunday morning. I was on until 2 o'clock Sunday Q. All day Saturday and right up till two o'clock on Sunday? — ^A. Yes, I was there all day Saturday except meal hoxirs. Q. Prom what hour in the morning on Saturday? — A. It would be about nine o'clock. Q. That was the usual hour? — A. Yes, generally go on about nine. Q. What was a fair day's service? — A Well, that is a kind of hard question to answer; the chief train despatcher is supposed to be there all times when wanted. Q. Night and day ? — A. If it is necessary for hiln to be there he is supposed to be there. 44 '.REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. What are the necessary hours for you as chief despatcher? — A!. Generally speaking, I would be there from 9 o'clock in the morning till about 11 or 12 at night, Q. On this Sunday morning you were there till two o'clock, then when did you return? — A. I did not come down till Sunday afternoon between one and two. Q. What took place then? — A. Just ordinary work that had to be done. I went in and did it. '' Q. Any objections made to you for coming at that hour ? — A. Mr. Pyeatt kind of took me to task beqause I dial not get down in the morning. I explained the case to him, and he said it was satisfactory; he was not aware that I was there till two o'clock. Q. Any other complaint made? — ^A. No, sir. Q. What difficulty did you find in performinig the work of chief despatcher? — A, Well, the trains were running a little bit slow, and there were several things would keep a despatcher there; the trains would not move the way we expected they would move, and you have to keep changing your arrangements probably and especially Satur- day night, and the train despatcher is supposed to be there on duty and look after the Samia end, especially when the stock comes out Saturday night. On this Saturday night that was the reason I was there so late to see how the stock was moved out and getting power out. Q. When did you make up your mind to be relieved of that position? — A. 1 had made up my mind to quit a long time, that is a few weeks, but I had not mentioned the fact to Mr. Pyeatt. ' Q. When did you first mention it to him? — A. About a week before I was re- lieved. I told him the hours were too long and I could not stand it ; I was not strong enough. Q. What hours did you refer to as being too long? — A. That is chief despatcher's hours. Q. Nine o'clock in the morning till twelve o'clock at night? — A. Nine o'clock until the worst was all done; Q. What assistance had you? — A. Three train despatchers. Q. Who were they ? — A. Mr. Black the first trick, and Kirkpatrick and Ben Knight, Q. Were they capable men ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Did they give satisfaction ? — A. They did all the time I was in the chiefship. Q. Had you any complaints about them when you were in charge? — A. I do not remember of having any. Q. Tou were perfectly satisfied with them ? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Have they been doing as good work under your successor as they had been while you were chief? — A. Tes, sir. Q. Mr. Kirkpatrick is not in charge there now? — A. No, sir. Q. Was he relieved? — A. I believe he resigned of his own accord. Q. Why? — A. I could not say his reasons. Q. Did he not assign any ? — A. Not to me, I was not chief then. . Q. Was he a capable man ? — A. I always considered' him a pretty good despatcher for the experience he had. Q. Did he do his' work ? — A. T«s, he did his work fairly well. Q. Tou have no fault to find with him? — A. No, sir. Q. Nor with Knight ? — A. No, I never had occasion to. Q. Has the work been increased since December 1 to what it had been the year before? — A. No, I do not thinb it has. Q. Has it been as heavy? — A. It has not been as heavy as it was a year ago, that is to my way of thinking. Q. Tou have a pretty good knowledge of what the work consists of and what is being done there? — A. fes. Q. Tou are there every day? — A. Tes, every day I was there. y. Has more freight been handled since December 1 than it had been for months previous to that? — A. Just about the same. Q. I was toldl there was far more freight handled during the twelve months of ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 45 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d 1904 under the old management than during the period the new management has been in charge ? — ^A. I think so myself. Q. What about the tonnage, has that been greater than under the present manage- ment — ^A. No, I do not think so. Q. You think the tonnage has not been greater? — A. I do not think so. Q. That is under the old management ? — A. I think the tonnage was heavier under the old management, that is the actual tonnage. Q. That was hauled over the road? — -A. Yes. Q. The power was in a very bad condition about December 1, last, I was told yes- terday?— A. "Well. Q. I have no doubt that was perfectly true ; what was the cause of that ? — A. That is a pretty hard question for me to answer. Q. Don't you know? — A. No, I cannot say. Q. You heard Mr. McKay's evidence this morning ? — A. I did. Q. Do you agree with him? — A. I agree that the power was not right up to first- class. Q. But the reason you cannot say? — A. No. Q. You personally know nothing about the reasons ? — A. No, sir. Q. How many miles of road would there be under each of your despatchers? — A. 128 and 70. Q. Under each of them? — ^A. No. 143, on the main line despatchers and about 70 on the Sarnia branch. Q. How many under you now ? — A. I take the whole thing now at midnight, 173 and 40 miles. Q. How much was there under Kirkpatrick ? — A. 70 miles. Q. And how much under Kaight ? — ^A. He took the whole thing at midnight. Q. The same as you are doing now ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that was a rather responsible position? — -A. I consider a despatcher's duties are responsible at any time. Q. But when the whole of the mileage is under you it is more responsible? — A. A little more. Q. And Mr. Knight had the whole at what hour? — A. After midnight. Q. What salary are you receiving? — A. $90 at the present time. Q. What had you been receiving ? — A. I was receiving $90 in the chiefship. Q. What were you receiving immediately before that? — -A. $80, working tricks. Q. And it was increased to $90 when you became chief? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And it has been continued on at $90 ? — A. Since then the salaries of despatchers have been increased $10. Q. When you gave up then you went back to your own salary? — A. No; I left $80 and took the chiefship at $90, ano! got the chiefship and fell into $90. Q. That is, all the despatchers had been increased $10 a month? — A. Yes. Q. So that you continued on at $90 ? — A. Yes. Q. Was Knight receiving $90 ? — A. No, I believe it was $80. Q. And Kirkpatrick?— A. $80. Q. The increase had not taken place in. their time? — A. Kirkpatrick's position was a. position that was a new position, that was made on account of the heavy worii of other d'espatchers looking after the whole line, that is the day despatchers, first and second despatchers had a little more than they could handle with safety, and Mr. Wool- latt decided to put on an extra man on the Sarnia branch. Q. Who occupies Kirkpatrick's position now ? — A. Mr. Andress at the present time. Q. When was he appointed to that position? — ^A. Monday morning. Q. Who had it before him?— A. Mr. Gary. Q. Mr. Gary succeeded Mr. Kirkpatrick ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was in charge at the time Mr. Gary was there? — A. As chief? Q. When Mr. Bailey was chief who were the trick despatchers or were there only two? — A. There was Mr. Black and Mr. Kirkpatrick. 46 REPOJtT OF BOYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. And yourself ?— A. And myself Q. And did Gary come and take Kirkpatrick's position? — A. Gary came afte't Kirkpatrick resigned. Q. So that there are three trick despatchers besides the chief? — A. Four; there are three on the main line and one on the Sarnia branch. Q. How many were there when you were chief? — A. Four. Q. And who was your predecessor as chief? — A. Mr. Bailey. Q. How many were there then? — A. At oue time there were only three. Q. Then the work became heavier? — A. Yes, and we put on one on the Sarnia branch. Q. Who were the men you had under you as chief? — A. Black, Kirkpatrick, Knight and I think Andress was working despatcher. Q. He had no trick, however? — A. Not regular. Q. So that is the position at the present time, there are four of you and a chief ? — • A. Yes, sir. Q. How many houjcs are you expected to be on duty now? — A. Train despatcher ii S hours. Q. And when you were chief you were there for how many ? — A. I stayed there as long as I was required, 16 or lY hours, some nights we would probably only go 14 or -15. Q. Did you complain of the long strain? — ^A. No, not to Mr. Pyeatt. Q. To anybody? — A. No, sir. Q. You did not complain of that? — A. No, not until about the week before I was relieved; I told Mr. Pyeatt the work was too heavy for me and askeol him if he could not give me something else. Q. You were not told you must do that or stand aside? — A. No, sir, I was not compelled. Q. It was a matter of free will ? — A. I gave up the office of my own free will. Q. And in consequence of that you took the night shift? — A. Mr. Pyeatt asked me to take the night shift. By Mr, Cdburn: Q. There are one or two things I do not understand; you say the work was heavier last year, 1904, than it has been since? — A. To my way of thinking I think it has. Q. Heavier on the despatchers I suppose you mean? — ^A. No, I mean heavier on the road ; if it is heavier on the road it must have been heavier on the despatchers. Q. That is what I want to ascertain; I thought it was heavier on the despatchers on account of the slow movement of trains; that had a large amount to do with it? — A. It would be necessarily heavier on the despatchers. Q. If trains were not moved promptly and readily it would be heavier on the des- patchers for the same amount of traffic ? — A. Yes, I think it would any way. Q. While you were acting chief do you remember what the movement of freight was; I am told it was about 600 cars a day? — A. Yes, it would be about that; it might go a little over that, and probably some days it would not go as high, but that Would be a fair average. Q. And during the period since that time it has gone up to 1,200, and it is. about 1,000 a day now? — A. That all depends on whether you are counting the Buffalo divi- sion, that is east of here, we are not handling — did you say 1,000 ? Q. It went up to 1,200, and it is now about 1,000, I understand ? — A. I suppose it would on an average run about that. Q. Do you know what Mr. Gilhula's hours are? — A. At the present time? Q. Yes? — A. I do not think he has any stated hours, not to my knowledge. Mr. Gil- hula stays there as long as there is work to do for the chief despatcher. Q. He is there a great deal more than eight hours a day? — A. Yes; I am not there to see what hours he cptaes on duty or when he goes oflf. I am not there in the day time. The Commissioner.— He is not there all night ? — A. No, sir. I have seen Mr. Gil- ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 47 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36cl hula there very late and away late in the morning; that was on account of the snow block though. By Mr. Coburn : Q. It is needless to say that your present work is much lighter than that of chief despatcher? — ^A. Oh, yes. The Commissioner. — And the salary? Mr. Coburn. — The same salary. The Commissioner. — It is lighter than the salary of the chief despatcher at the present time. Mr. Coburn. — Oh, yes. Edwin J. McMillan, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner : Q. What is your occupation? — A. Tool maker on the Pere Marquette. Q. How long have you been employed in the Pere Marquette shops? — A. Since April 3. Q. Wliere were you before that? — A. I was with the Pere Marquette in Saginaw for a time. Q. Under Mr. Essick?— A. Yes. Q. What were you receiving there? — ^A. $2.47j a day. Q. You receive $2.85 here?— A. Yes. Q. Why did you resign in Saginaw ? — A. I understood' by different machinists that were travelling through, that there was a position over here vacant, and they were paying better money, and I resigned there to do better. Q. Who were the diiferent machinists that told you there were vacancies here?— A. It is rather hard to give their surnames on account of not being v6ry well acquainted with them, they were what we call hobos. Q. They are not machinists? — ^A. Yes, but just floating around through the country. Q. What kind of machinists? — A. Hobos are some of the best machinists; they are what the craft call hobos, just go about the country. Q. You are not. acquainted with many of them? — ^A. They come on there and you mcko their acquaintance. Q. Had you any correspondence with the St. Thomas people? — A. None whatever. Q. No letter written to any one? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you consult Mr. Essick about it? — A. No, sir. Q. Did not speak to Mr. Essick? — A. I just informed Mr. Essick that I had re- sipred. Q. And you were off east? — ^A. I did not tell him where I was off to. Q. How long had you been there? — A. About three years and five months. Q. Where before that? — ^A. I was with the Zinsch-Gassing people. Grand Eapida, Michigan. Q. You moved just across the road, practically speaking? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you not get transportation ? — A. Just about five hours before I left I went up into Mr. Bowden's office, and asked him if he would give transportation. He said ' Where do you want it to ' ? I said' ' I do not hardly know, but I think I will go to St. Thomas and try that first.' Q. Was that honest? — A. Well, no, not exactly honest; I knew pretty well I was bound for St. Thomas. Q. You knew you were going to Gt. Thomas? — A. Yes, I had made up my mind ' tj go. Q. Had a pretty good idea; you got transportation from there to St. Thomas? — A. Yes, sir, and return. Q. Is that still good? — A. I destroyed tliat, I had no occasion for it. 48 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. t905 Q. You succeeded in getting employment here? — ^A. Yes, the transportation wis no good to me, so I destroyed it. Q. You came to St. Thomas and applied' to Mr. Groening? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know Mr. Groening? — ^A. Yes. Q. Had you any correspondence with Mr. Groening? — ^A. None whatever. Q Nor with any one through him? — A. No, sir. Q. JNo correspondence whatever? — A. None whatever. Q. You were under Mr. Groening before? — A. No, sir. Q. What position had he in Grand Eapids ? — A. He was what we call the pit-side foreman, erecting foreman. Q. And he is general foreman here? — A. Yes. Q. That is a better position.? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you here before you went to work ? — A. I arrived here Eriday night and wont to work the following Monday. Q. Did you give any certificate of character or anything of that nature? — ^A. No, sir, I was asked Q. He knew you? — A. Yes, I was asked if I resigned or was discharged, and I told' him I had resigned. Q. Do you think he told any of those hobos to tell you to come across? — ^A. No, sir, I have no idea that he knows any of them. Q. He is not so well acquainted with them as you are? — A. I was not well ac- quainted with them; I can give you their 'first names but I cannot give you the last names — ^Douglas. Q. The first name is as good as the last with a hobo ?— A. I believe they said they had worked in Stratford, they came through this way. Q. You told Mr. Groening where you had come from? — ^A. Yes. Q. He knew that as soon as he saw you? — ^A. Yes, sir, I presume he did. Q. And immediately employed you; you filled up an application sheet? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When! — A. On Sunday afternoon the 2nd. * Q. Where did! you get it? — A. At his office. Q. On the Saturday or Friday ? — A. I got it on the Sunday. Q. Your son and sister still live over in Grand Bapids ?— ^A. Yes, sir. Q. You have not brought them across yet? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You are an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Owen Hales, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. How long have you been with the Pere Marquette Eailway Company in Can- ada? — A. About a year and fifteen days. Q. You are sure of the fifteen days ? — A. About, I came on April 3 last year. Q. Where from? — ^A. Prom Saginaw. Q. What position did you occupy there? — ^A. Air-brakemau. Q. How long had you been in Saginaw? — ^A. Working, do you mean? Q. Yes. — ^A. About eleven years. Q. Was the Pere Marquette the first railway you had anything to do with?— A. Yes, sir. Q. And you have stuck by the Pere Marquette since ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have always lived in the States utitil you came to Walkerville? — A. Yes, sir. . Q. What wages were you paid' in Saginaw? — A. 22 cents an hour. Q. How much now? — ^A. 26 cents. Q. There has been an increase since you came here? — ^A. Yes, since I came to St. Thomas. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 49 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36cl Q. Yes?— A. No, sir. Q. You got an increase as soon as you came to Walkerville ? — A. Yes. Q. From 22 cents to 26 cents in Walkerville? — A. Yes. Q. How did you come to go to Walkerville ? — A. There was a young fellow working at the air-brake in the shop there, and he had quit the job to work for the McLaughlin. Air-Brake Company in Walkerville, and he was a friend of mine, and he told me the job was open, and said if I wanted it to come down and ask for it; so I quit the job ■where I was and went down. Q. And you have been here ever since ? — A. Yes. Q. Giving good work? — A. I hope so. John McManamy, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. What position do you occupy on the Pere Marquette in St. Thomas? — ^A.. As- sistant master mechanic. Q. That is rather a misleading title, you are really master mechanic in the Bufiala- division, are you not; you have charge? — A. Under the supervision of Mr. Kellogg. Q. He is the master mechanic of the whole system ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are his assistant so far as his position is concerned, but you have charge-- of the Buffalo division as master mechanic? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you arrive in St. Thomas? — A. About the 30th November, 1904_ Q. You came ahead of Mr. Pyeatt? — A. No, sir. Q. When did he come, here; I thought it was the first December? — A. No, I think' Mr. Pyeatt was here a few days tefore that. Mr. Pyeatt.- — I took charge on the 1st. Witness. — ^I also did the same thing; the question as I understood it was when I arrived here. By the Commissioner: Q. Where had you been working before that? — A. Grand' Kapids, Michigan. Q. Under Mr. Kellogg? — A. No, sir; Mr. Kellogg was not there at that time; Mr. Christie was the master mechanic. Q. You were under Mr. Christie then? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What position did you occupy there? — A. Road foreman of engines. Q. How long had you been at Grand Eapids ? — ^A. I had been in the service of the Pere Marquette since the organization of the company in 1900. Q. What road were you on before that? — A. The Chicago and West Michigan, which is a branch now under the supervision or control of the Pere Marquette. Q. Before that? — A. I was on the Chicago & West Michigan ever since I began railroading, 1891. Q. What salary were you receiving when you were appointed here? — A. $150 a month. Q. At Grand Eapids ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And is that what you are receiving now? — A. Mo, sir. Q. What is it now?— A. $175. Q. So that there was a slight inducement to your coming here? — A. Yes, the in- d'ucement, however, was made after I came here; I came here at the same salary I was receiving at Grand Rapids. Q. And you were increased shortly afterwards? — A. The first of the year, thirty days after I came here. Q. Was there a general increase made all the way around? — A No, sir. Q. You were led to believe there would be an increase when you were appointed ? — A. No, sir, I was not led to believe there would be an increase. I was told they wanted me to go to St. Thomas, that was all there was of it, and when I asked the question of S6d-A 50 REPORt OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 the rate of pay they said it would be all right. ' We want you now to go to St. Thomas.' Q. And as a faithful servant you obeyed? — A. Yes. Q. You of course got transportajbion to St. Thomas?— A. I already had my trans- portation, I had an annual pass over the Pere Marquette system. It was not necessary to get any transportation to St Thomas. Q. As master mechanic in St. Thomas what are your duties? — A. I have super- vision over the mechanical department. Q. What condition did you find the power in when you came here? — A. It was not good by any means. Q. All the engines run down? — A. Most of them were. Q. Not repaired? — A. No, sir. Q. Out of repair? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how that happened? — A. No, sir, I do not; prior to the time I came h«re I paid no attention to the Buffalo division. Q. The future, and not the past, was what you were looking for? — ^A. Yes. Q. What did you do in order to put things in better shape? — A. We increased the force and ran our shop nights, worked over time, and so forth, to get the power into condition to give better service than was being given at that time. Q. That increased the expenditure of money? — A. Yes. Q. As well as the number of hands? — A. Yes. Q. The management in Cincinnati supplies you with all the necessary funds? — A. They supplied me with all that I used at any rate. Q. All you wanted ? — A. No. Q. How many new engines did they send over here? — A. There were four new engines sent some time I believe in January, there were four engines, but not new engines. Q. But they were good engines?^ — A. Yes, in good condition; th^ came here in the end of January for a short period of time, and all have been returned. Q. Any new engines put on the road since you came ? — A. Yes sir, six new ones. Q. Where were they made? — A. At Dunkirk, New York. Q. All the old ones repaired since you came? — ^A. No, sir, they have not, a number have been, but others have not. Q. How many have been repaired? — A. I could not say just that; we have a num- ber of old engines to go through the shop yet, five waiting in the shop at the present time, and as yet unfit for service. Q. How much money has been expended in putting the power in fair condition by the bringing in of six new engines and repairing old engines? — A. Our pay-rolls run about $17,000 per month. That of course could not all be attributed to putting the power in good condition ; the only portion of it which could be attributed towards that would be the amount that is in excess of the pay-rolls prior to the time I came here. Q. How much were the amount of the pay-rolls prior to your time? — A. Between $10,000 and $11,000 per month. Q. For how long prior? — A. I do not know, I have not the record back very long. Q. Did you immediately increase the stafi? — A. We increased the staff. Q. Outside of the pay-rolls, what would be the expenditure in connection with the power? — ^A. The engines that are sent here are worth about $15,000 apiece; there were six of those. Q. What other expenditure? — A. In the way of shops? Q. Yes ? — A. There was considerable expenditure in the way of shops, but the shops were well under way, but not in running order, when I came here. Q. Machinery ? — A. Yes, there has been some money expended for machinery ; there have been only a few machines bought since I came here; the other machines had' been purchased before that time, but were not installed, and were not in working order. Q. What would be the cost of them?— A. They will run from $1,000 to $3,000 each. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 51 SlSSIONAL paper No. 36d Q. How many were there? Mr. CoB0RN. — I do not want to object, but I do not see what bearing all this has on the question at all. The Commissioner. — I am about through now. The bearing is this, that this new regime put everything into capital working order immediately, while the old men that were here could -not do it. You see the bearing now without going into details ? Mr. CoBURN. — Yes. By the Commissioner: Q. About how many machines were there? — A. Bought since I came here? Q. That were not installed? — A. Bought previously, and bought since, and in- stalled since ? Q. Yes ? — A. Seven or eight. Q. That would be about $20,000?— A. Yes. Q. So that, with all that expenditure, you have been putting the road iu pretty good order? — ^A. It is better, at any rate. Q. It could not have been put in good order without that expenditure? — A. Not with the facilities at Walkerville. Q. Nor with the facilities at St. Thomas, without the expenditure of that money? —A. No. Q. What employees do you supervise? — A. All employees in the mechanical de- partment. Q. They cover engineers and firemen, in addition to the shop men? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who are your foremen? — A. We have a number of those we have in all about fourteen foremen on the Buffalo division. Q. How long have they been here? — A. Some of them have been here for a num- ber of years, others have been appointed since I came to St. Thomas. Q. Who are the ones you appointed? — A. Mr. Dyell, round-house foreman at St. Thomas; Mr. Griffith, also round-house foreman at St. Thomas; Mr. Austin, round- house foreman at Walkerville; Mr. Herd, machine foreman; Mr. Berdett has been appointed night foreman of the machine shop; that is all I have appointed, I guess. Q. Are there any other foremen there you have not appointed, and whp have been appointed since you came here? — A. Edward Greening and Shoemaker. Q. Who appointed them? — ^A. Mr. Groening was appointed by a bulletin issued in the St. Thomas shops; he was sent here by Mr. Kellogg for that purpose, and Mr. Kellogg appointed Mr. Shoemaker, or Mr. Stafford employed him. That was done when I was not in the city, and, when I came here, I found Mr. Shoemaker working. Q. Mr. Groening was appointed by Mr. Kellogg? — A. Mr. Groening was appointed by me and approved of by Mr. Kellogg; he was sent here by Mr. Kellogg; Q. He was sent here by Mr. Kellogg for appointment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And Mr. Shoemaker was appointed, as he said in his evidence? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been relieving a number of the hands during the past month or two 1 — ^A. We have relieved a few engineers. Q. Only? — A. There have been a few shop men relieved, very few, three or four, and eleven engineers. Q. When were the eleven engineers relieved? — A. Monday of this week. Q. Why were they relieved? — A. On account of not having sufficient work to keep the force all working. Q. Were they Canadians? — A. Most of them were, most of our men in every capacity are. Q. The exception to the rule is the Americans? — A. Yes, some are, some are not. Q. The rule is that Canadians are employed? — A. Yes. Q. And the exception to that rule is that there is an American here and there employed? — A. Yes, and also a man from a foreign country here and there, possibly about as many of those as there are Americans. 36/i— 4i 62 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VM., A. 1905 Q. You remember Mr. TuUer coming here? — A. Yes. Q. He was sent with a letter from Mr. Essick or Mr. Kellogg? — A. No, sir, hs made the request to Mr. Kellogg to allow him to come to St. Thomas to see if he could find anything for him to do here. Mr. Kellogg had nothing for him when he made the application to him, and he asked Mr. Kellogg if he would allow him to come to St. Thomas in search of employment as a locomotive engineer. Q. And he brought that letter to you? — A. He had a letter of recommend'ation from Mr. Kellogg. Q. Have you the letter? — A. No, sir, it was sent back to Mr. Kellogg with a notation on the letter from me that there was no employment in that capacity that we could furnish for Mr. TuUer ; that we had more engineers than we could use or as manj at that time. Q. You gave him work as a machine hand?^ — A. Yes; a few days later we gave him work as a machinist's helper. Q. At a considerably less remuneration ?^A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you dismissing or relieving machine men at that time? — A. No, sir, w- had been advertising for machine men at that time in the Toronto and in the Stratford papers. Q. Those eleven engineers you relieved on Monday could they have gone into tho machine shops if they had desired it ? — A. They could have a short time ago ; I offered' all of them an opportunity of going into the machine shop if they cared to do so, but at that time they did not care to do so, and later when it became necessary to reduci.- the force, we could not employ additional men; we had our shop in every capacity full. These men will be given an opportunity, however the first vacancy, if they care to go in the machine shop. Q. There are no vacancies at the present time? — A. No. Q. What is the usual salary for engineers ? — A. About 3 to SJ cents a mile, accord- ing to the class of service. Q. How much would that be a day on the average ? — A. For the month, men that have regular runs make in the neighbourhood of $100, and some times a little more. Q. So that the machinists do not get near as much as engineers? — A. No, sir. Q. You always lived in the States? — A. Yes. Q. And. you are an American citizen ? — A. Yes, sir, I presume so ; I had been five months away from there. Q. You have not taken the oath of allegiance in Canada yet? — A. No. Q. Who was your predecessor in St. Thomas?— A. We did not have any one in that capacity. Q. There was no one in that capacity when you were appointed? — A. No, sir. Q. Who had been acting ? — A. There was no one acting in that capacity. Q. Not at that time? — A. Not previous to that; Mr. Austin, I believe, had acted in that capacity at one tiime in Walkerville, and Mr. Royce superseded Mr. Austin. Q. Where is Mr. Eoyce?— ^. He is working for the Manistee Iron Company in Manistee, Michigan. Q. I suppose there are Canadians who could fill the position of master mechanic ? — A. I should hope so. Q. Mr. Bartlett was in the service, was he not, when you came? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you know him? — A. No, sir, I did not know Mr. Bartlett. Q. Who wouldl know- anything about Mr. Bartlett? — A. Some of the men who have been employed on the Buffalo division prior to the time I came here, I did not know Mr. Bartlett at all. There are a number of men here, however, that have been em- ployed under Mr. Bartlett, I presume. Q. You do not know him? — A. No, sir. Q. Is there a Mr. Knechtel? — A. Not to my knowledge. Q. I thought you were acquainted with Mr. Bartlett? — A. No, sir, I never met him. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 53 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q; Is there amy foreman here now in your department who would kno* him? — A. I presume Mr. Austin would. Mr. Austin was here at that time. Q. He is at Walkerville now?— A. Yes, sir. Possibly there are others who would know Mr. Baftlett; I do not know. Q. Mr. Hunker is under you?— A. No, sir, Mr. Hunker is under the store depart- ment, which comes under Mr. W. C. Atherton, Detroit; that is a different department from ours. Q. He has charge of the men in the store department? — A. Yes. Q. He is in Detroit?— A. Yes. Q. Who has charge of the store department in St. Thomas? — A. Mr. Hunker. Q. Is there any record of Mr. Bartlett being in charge here as assistant master mechanic? — A. No, there is no record of him being assistant master mechanic to m^ knowledge ; he was in charge as general foreman. Q. That is the position Mr. Groening occupies ? — A. Mr. Greening is now occupy- ing the position of general foreman. Q. Who occupied it immediately before Mr. Groening? — A. Mr. Stafford. Q. Who before Mr. Stafford?— A. Mr. Koyce. Q. And who before Mr. Eoyce? — A. I guess before Mr. Eoyce, Mr. Bartlett; Mr. Eoyce was here prior to the time I came here. Q. He was not here very long? — A. I think five or six months. Q. How long was Mr. Stafford here? — A. Mr. Stafford came here January 8th and left March the 21st. .... Q. He is over at Grand Eapids ? — A. Yes. Q. Was he on the Missouri Pacific or did he come from there ? — A. I do not know, he worked at one time on the Missouri Pacific, but I do not think he was there prior to the titne he came here ; I am not prepared to say as to that. There is one point I would like to touch upon, that is in figuring up the expense and so forth, the increase in ex!- pense relative to why this new administration were able to put the power in condition where the old were not, there is one very important point that you failed to touch upon, that was the fact that at that time when the pay-rolls were less than they are now, when they had less machinery in Walkerville and the facilities were not as good to keep the power in condition, this work was being done for them in our shops in Saginaw the engines were being sent here from Saginaw, and the engines were being rebuilt at Saginaw and being sent here. That position does not exist at the present time, the Buffalo division is self -maintaining. Then in regard to the new engines sent here to increase the power, and increase expense on account of new engines coming here, we turned over to the other division engine for engine that came here, and in addition to that turned over a few more than we got, so that we will have quite a credit account there. Q. But the engines that were here in operation were inferior engines at the time you took charge ? — A. They were inferior engines at the time- we took charge. Q. And these had come from Saginaw? — A. Some of them had come from Sag- inaw, a number of them had come from there. Q. And was it necessary to return them there in order to get repairs? — A. No, they were not returned there for repairs, but some were in bad condition, and engines in better condition were sent here, and loaned to the Buffalo division until such times as the Buffalo division got into the condition to do the work, and then they were re- turned to Saginaw. Q. Were those engines much lighter than the engines you have obtained since? — A. Not any, they are about the same weight, there is a little difference in the cylinder, one is 20 x 26, and the other is 19J x 38, the same rating. Q. How many engines were there in operation when you took charge? — A. I have not the list of engines that were in operation when I took charge. The engines I refer to were four I loaned the Buffalo division from Saginaw, and after we got our power in position to do the work we returned those to Saginaw, and in addition to that we have returned four other engines. 54 REPORT OP ROYAL OOMMISSWN 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. ^905 Q. Did you put them in good order before you returned them ? — A. Some of them ■were; some of them were right out of the St. Thomas shops, and had been in as good condition as when they came there. Q. I suppose you say your power is in a better condition than when you came ? — A. No, sir; I would let the service show that. Q. Would not you say it was? — A. Tes, if I was called upon for a statement, I would certainly say it was, and the service substantiates the statement I make. Q. IJndoubtedly so, because your power is greater? — A. Tes. Q. And naturally, the service would be better with greater power? — A. Yes. Amy McLean, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. You live at Eidgetown? — A. Yes. Q. How long have you been living there? — A. Seventeen years. Q. You are a stenographer, I believe, by profession ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Engaged on the Pere Marquette for some time? — A. Yes, I was. Q. When were you first employed there? — A. Tebruary, 1903. Q. Where?— A. At Eidgetown. Q. And worked there ? — A. In Mr. Cameron's office. Q. He was the trainmaster? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did you go from there? — A. I went up to Walkerville, last February, 1904. Q. In whose department there? — A. Mr. Woollatt's. Q. He was the general manager or superintendent? — A. He was superintendent. Q. Where next did you come or go to ? — A. We came to the office, and went down here to St. Thomas on November 28. Q. The offices were removed from Walkerville to St. Thomas, and j'ou came along ? —A. Yes. Q. Who took charge here, in St. Thomas, who was the superintendent? — A. Mr. Pyeatt came on December 1. Q. You acted as stenographer for him? — A. Por one day. Q. Then what took place? — A. Well, we stopped the next day at noon. Q. What caused you to stop so suddenly? — A. We had an intimation that Mr. Pyeatt was not a bit satisfied with our work. Q. He had not very much of a chance, had he, to get dissatisfied? — A. I do not think so myself. Q. Who told you he was dissatisfied? — A. T came across a letter written to Mr. Trump. Q. Prom whom? — A. Prom Mr. Pyeatt, Q. What did that state? — A. It stated that neither of us was capable to do the work, and that he wanted a man stenographer. Q. I suppose he had a right to form that opinion? — A. Oh, certainly. Q. But it intimated to you that you were not qualified for the work Mr. Pyeatt wanted? — A. Seemed to. me that way. Q. And in consequence of that you stopped work the next day? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And went home? — A. Yes, I went home the next day — no, I went home the Monday following. Q. Did you not even give them notice you were going? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom did you give notice? — A. We left a note; we waited for Mr. Fore- man. Q. But Mr. Foreman did not turn up? — A. He was very busy, and it was quite late, 30 we thought we had better go home. Q. What salary were you receiving? — A. Thirty-five dollars a month. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 55 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. And you had to pay your own expenses, your board? — A. Yea, sir. Q. You have not been employed since ? — A. No. Q. They have not sent for you since then? — A. No. Q. Could get along without you? — A. Apparently. Q. Have you been desirous of getting work since then? — A. Of course, I would take a position, if I got one. Q. Have you been trying to get a position ? — A. I have looked about a little bit. Q. You have not got one yet? — A. No. Q. Possibly Mr. Pyeatt might give you a better position now, if you returned; you have not asked him? — A. No, sir. Q. You do not feel like asking him, after writing that letter ? — A. I do not know. Q. How many were in the office at that time? — A. Miss Steel and myself, and Mr. Foreman and Mr. Cole. Q. Mr. Foreman is the only man left there that was there at that time ? — A. Yes^ Q. "What was Miss Steel getting? — A. Twenty- jive dollars a month. Q. Was she a stenographer, as well? — A. Yes. Q. Where did you learn the profession of stenography? — A. In Eidgetown. Q. Did Mr. Cameron or Mr. Woollatt complain of your inefficiency? — A. I never heard; Mr. WooUatt always expressed himself as being satisfied. Q. And Mr. Cameron the same way? — A. Yes, I think so. Q. There were no complaints against your work? — A. No, none that I ever heard.. Q. There is a young lady there in the office, did you know that? — A. I suppoaa they would have to have somebody. Edna Steel, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. When did you enter the service of the Pere Marquette? — A. August the 9th, 1904. Q. Where?— A. Walkerville. Q. In whose department? — A. In the superintendent's office. Q. What were your duties there? — A. Just sten^^grapher work. Q. Typewriting too? — A. Yes. Q. Did Miss McLean do typewriting as well? — A. Yes. Q. Typewriting and stenography go together? — A. Yes. Q. You were junior to Miss McLenn? — A. Yes. Q. You moved' down to St. Thomas aboiit the 28th November? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Receiving $25 a month ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then when did you put in your resignation? — A. The same day Miss McLeau did. Qi That was on the 2nd December? — A. Yes, sir, at noon. Q. You both struck, as it were; it was in consequence of that unfortunate letter that you saw? — A. Yes, sir. Q. That caused your feelings to rise? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the expression you iised when you saw that letter ? — A. I do not know that I used any particularly. Q. I guess you used something, do you remember ? — A. No, I do not ; I guess likely I said I would stop. Q. Have you been employed since? — A. I do some work for my father at home. Q. And you do not get $25 a month for that? — A. No. Q. Are you looking for further service ? — A. No. Q. Not necessary, in your case? — A. No; I guess not. Q. Were there any complaints made against your work in Walkerville? — A. Not that I know of. Q. Mr. Pyeatt did not speak harshly to you when you came? — A. No, sir. 66 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Did not complain to your face you were inefficient ? — A. No, sir, only the letter. Q. The letter spoke louder than words, and his looks too? — (No answer). Werner C. GROENnsfG, sworn, examined: By the Gommissioner: Q. What is your position in the Pferc Marquette, St. Thomas? — A. General for^"- man of the shops. Q. Under Mr. McManamy? — ^A. Yes. Q. How long have you occupied that position? — A. In St. Thomas? ■Q. Yea ?— A. Since the 18th March, last. Q. Where had you been employed previously? — A. In Detroit. Q. In the shops there? — A. At the round-house. Q. In Detroit?— A. Yes. Q. Of the Pere Marquette ?— A. Yes. Q. How long had you been employed there? — About six weeks. Q. Where did you come from to there ? — A. From Saginaw. Q. In the shops there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you in the shops there? — A. On the 20th June, 1886. Q. That is almost 19 years now? — A. Yes. Q. What position did you occupy there? — A. Assistant general foreman. Q. Under whom ? — A. Essick. Q. He is the general foreman? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was the master mechanic there — there were two or three during that time ? — A. Mr. Bowden was master mechanic when I left there. Q. Mr. Christie had been master mechanic? — A. Yes. Q. What was Mr. Kellogg's position? — A. General master mechanic. Q. For the wliole system? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What salary were you receiving there? — A. $80 a month. Q. And' at Detroit the same? — A. No, received $100 there. Q. How many weeks were you there? — A. Either five or six weeks. Q. You only received that for that time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Previous to that you had been receiving $80 at Saginaw ? — A. Yes. Q. How did you come to St. Thomas ? — A. There was a position open, better pay. Q. Who told you about it? — A. Mr. Kellogg. Q. Mr. Kellogg at Grand Eapids? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he write to you or did you see him personally? — A. I saw him personally. Q. Where?— A. At Detroit. Q. He came to see you there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he offer you ? — A. He made no offer at all ; he told me there was an opening here for advancement and he wanted to transfer me from Detroit to St. Thomas. Q. At what salary? — A. There was nothing stated about salary at that time. Q. Did you write to St. Thomas then? — A. No, sir, I came to St. Tholnas. Q. You came according to instructions? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who gave you transportation? — A. Mr. Kellogg. Q. When was this?— A. 17th March. Q. You received instructions from Mr. Kellogg and transportation, and started -the same day ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you brought your family since? — A. I think they will be here to-night, the more sorrow. Q. You are getting transportation for theinl — A. Yes, sir. Q. What salary are you getting here ? — A. $110. Q. What are your duties here? — A. To superintend the shops. Q. Different from the position you occupied in Saginaw? — A. A little more auiiiority, yes, sir. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 57 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Do you employ men under you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Tou have that authority just the same as Mr Shoemaker had? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He has charge of the boiler men? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you been employing men lately? — A. I have. Q. Oan you give me the names of any"men you employed? — A. The applications are all in the Master Mechanic's office. Q. I see they were all sent back to Mr. Kellogg? — A. That is the headquarters. Q. We only found a few here; what men are they that you employ? — A. Machin- ists, helpers, laborers. Q. Did you employ TuUer? — A. No, sir, he was here before I came. Q. Wlhat date did you cotae? — A. 18th March. Q. When was he here ? — A. I could not say, TuUer was off sick when I came here. Q. I see Stafford employed him on the 11th March; did you employ McMillan? — A. I did. Q. You knew him over in Saginaw? — A. I did. Q. A good man? — A. A good man. Q. Did you employ Mclntyre? — A. Yes. Q. Where did. he come from? — A. From Saginaw. Q. You knew him too? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Any other Saginaw men? — A. Not that I know of. Q. Are these the only two men? — A. That is all I know. Mr. Hales was working here when I came here. Q. He is an old Saginaw man? — A. Yes. Q. Any other Saginaw men besides that quartet? — A. Mr. Glover. Q. What position does he occupy? — A. Machinist. Q. When was he employed? — A. I could not say, he has been over a year or so. Q. He was before you? — A. Yes. Q. I had reference more particularly since you came here? — A. That is the only two I have employed. Q. The only two you knew over in Saginaw? — A. Yes. Q. Did you write for them to come? — A. No, sir. Q. To any of their friends? — ^A. No, sir. Q. Did they write to you? — A. No, sir. Q. Neither of them? — A. No, sir. Q. How did they colne here? — A. I do not know how they came here, they came here looking for a job I suppose. Q. They knew you were here ? — ^A. Yes. Q. A good sort of man to work under? — A. Yes, that is what they came for, or else they would not have come. Q. Did you do anything to invite them over ? — ^A. No, sir. Q. Not even your reputation, that would invite them, would it not? — A. They came of their own free will. Q. Whose position did Mr. Mclntyre take? — A. I cannot remember; I do not think he took anybody's position. Q. Was not there any position open for him before he came? — A. There was a vacancy on the road at the time he came. Q. For how long before he came, a week? — -A. Yes, more than a week, a little over a week. Q. Did he know about it? — A. No. Q. Are you sure he did not? — A. I know he did not. Q. Why ? — ^A. How should he know. Q. Did not anybody know who had anything to do with the shops ? — A. He did not know of this vacancy. Q. You say that assuredly; why do you say that? Did all the other men know there was a vacancy? — A. Yes, sir, in one way; sometimes we replace men, and' other times we do not. 5g REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD Vll., A. 1905 Q. Swigar^was tlie man -whom he replaced; where did he go to? — A. I could not tell you ; I think the last place he went to was Grand Kapids, the last I heard of him. Q. When did he leave ? — A. I could not tell you. Q. Two weeks before Mr. Mclntyre came? — A. From the shops? Q. Yes ?— A. About in that neighbourhood— no, it was not ; it was about a week,. I should judge. Q. And then Mclntyre came, and you put him in Swigart's place? — A. In order to fill up the blank. Q. You gave him the same wage? — A. Yea. Q. Are the wages higher here than they are in Saginaw? — A. They are less at present. Q. How much are they at Saginaw ? — A. They are paying 28 cents an hour, and they are only paying 26 cents here. Q. Is that what Mclntyre was getting over in Saginaw, 28 cents? — A. I won't say for sure what Mclntyre was getting in Saginaw. Q. How much was McMillan getting in Saginaw?— A. He was making, $2.4Y, at the rate of 2Y cents an hour. Q. And he got $2.85 when he came .here, so that is an increase here? — A. Yes. that is the schedule on this side of the river for tool-makers. Q. So that they are improving their condition by coming to St. Thomas ? — A. Yes. Q. Naturally, that is what they come for? — A. That is what I came for. Q. And to what extent have you improved your condition, $10 a month only? — A. Yes. Q. You always lived in the States before coming here ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. An American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Walter H. Cole, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner : Q. Are you employed in the Pere Marquette railway in St. Thomas? — A. I ani a brakeman on a passenger train. Q. Running where? — A. Between Wallcerville and London. Q. How long have you been brakeman ? — A. Since February 28. Q. What position did you occupy before that ? — A. Clerk in Mr. Pyeatt's office. Q. You were with the young ladies we had here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you leave with them? — A. No, sir, I remained on. Q. You had no cause to leave? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you remember their leaving? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they assign any reason to you for leaving? — A. Only they thought their services were not being satisfactory, and there was some one going to take their place. Q. Did they agree with Mr. Pyeatt? — A. I do not think they had any consul- tation. Q. They came to the same conclusion : he thought they were not .satisfactory, and they evidently thought they were not satisfactory to Mr. Pyeatt. Had any charges been made against them? — A. Nothing particulary that I know of. Q. Anything that was not particular? — A. No, sir. Q. Nothing general? — A. No, sir. Q. What were your duties there ? — A. I entered up correspondence, and I did some typewriting once in a while, and made out the vouchers. Q. Regular office work? — A. I was clerk. Q. You are getting bigger now, but at that time you were office boy; what salary were you getting then ? — A. When I came to St. Thomas, I was increased from $45 to $50 a month. Q. What salary were you getting then ? — A. Fifty dollars a month in Mr. Pyeatt's office. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY ■ 59 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. When did you leave the office ?— A. February 27 or 28. Q. What was the difficulty with you, were the rooms too small for you?— A. They were not very large; I had my home in Walkerville, and under the circumstances I •was not able to leave at the present time, and I thought I would take something that would take me home as often as possible, and I asked to be changed to the train ser- vice, if possible. _Q. When were you changed?— A. On February 28, I think it was, in the train service. Q. At an increased salary? — A. I am working by the hour and day now, and if I do not work, I do not get any pay. Q. How much a day do you get now ?— A. One day, make $1.80, and the next day about $2.70. Q. Are you working every day? — A. Every day but Sunday. Q. So that you have improved your position financially? — A. I have, to a certain extent. Q. Harder work, too? — A. Tea, sir. Q. Greater risk? — A. Yes, sir. William L. Hunker, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. What is your position? — A. Storekeeper. Q. In St. Thomas, for the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, for the Buffalo division. Q. How long have you acted as storekeeper ? — A. Since December 27, 1904. Q. What position did you occupy previous to that? — A. I was stock clerk at the- Shawanee store, at Eock Island. Q. Where?- A. Oklahoma. Q. How did you come east? — A. I wanted to get closer to home. Q. Where is your home? — A. Elkhart, Indiana. Q. Are you closer to home here? — A. About 700 miles closer. Q. How many hundred' miles is it from here to Elkhart, Indiana ? — A. About 300.- Q. What were you receiving as salary at Oklahoma? — A. $75 a month. Q. What are you receiving in St. Thomas ? — A. $70 a month. Q. So that you are $5 worse off? — A. Yes. Q. But nearer home would make the difference? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You are not a married man? — A. K'o, sir, no prospect. Q. Where were you employed on the Pere Marquette? — A. The letter I got asking, me to come to the road offered me the position of storekeeper at Muskegan, Michigan. Q. Where was that letter sent from? — A. From Mr. Atherton's office; he was then. &t Saginaw, Michigan. Q. He was superintendent? — A. General storekeeper at Saginaw. Q. He wrote to you from Saginaw ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To Oklahoma?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know him? — A. I did not know the man personally, Q. How did he come to write to you? — A. I had filed an application with him some time before for a position. Q. He told you to come where? — A. The letter I got from him told me to report to room 10 Depot Building at Saginaw, Michigan. The first letter he wrote offered me a position as storekeeper at Muskegan. Q. That is still nearer home? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When you got to him what then? — A. I reached his office nine o'clock 27tb December, 1904. Q. A couple of d'ays after Christmas? — A. Yes, sir, I was at home at Christmas,, and -it took me to the next day to get up to Saginaw. 60 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. What was the result of your going to him on the 27th?— A. Mr. Atherton was not there, he was at Walkerville that day, and the man in charge, Mr. Minot, saiJ he had instructions to send me to Walkerville, and I went down to Walkerville. Q. He gave you transportation? — A. Yes. Q. Did he give you transportation from Oklahoma?— A. No, I had traneportation from the Rock Island from Oklahoma to Chicago. Q. And you paid your way after that? — A.' I paid my way to Elkhart. Q. Eailway men never pay their way? — A. I certainly did that time. Q. You remember that? — A. Yes. Q. You got transportation from Saginaw to Walkerville ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What wage had he ofiered you?— A. $65 a month at Muskegan, Michigan. Q. He could not give you that position? — A. After I got to Saginaw, after he ha I ofiered me that, the storekeeper on this side skipped out and left him, so he had a man he could put in at Muskegan, and he sent me over to Walkerville. Q. At $70 a month?— A. Yes. Q. Mr. Minot ofiered you $70 ? — A. Mr. Minot never said anythip^ about what the salary would be. Q. Who offered you the salary? — A. He never said anything about what it wai until I saw' in the pay-rolls what it was going to be. Q. You were surprised in getting $5 more than you expected? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You would not object to those surprises occurring frequently? — A. No, sir, right along every month. Q. In Walkerville you took charge? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. On the 28th December? — A. I got down there about 4.30 of the 27th, and I worked the rest of the afternoon and that evening. Q. You are the kind of men railway companies are after; did you meet Mr. Ath- erton there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He told you what to do? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And not to do like the other man? — A. No, I have not done it yet either. Q. You were born where? — A. In Michigan. Q. I suppose you have travelled over every state in the United States since then? — A. No, I wish I had. Q. You have never been out of the States since you were born until now? — A. Until I came here in December last. Q. You are' an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What are your duties as storekeeper? — A. I have charge of all the supplies that are used on the division outside of some of the large items that are used by the engineering department. Q. Are there any persons under you? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who? — A. Mr. Bernard, and W. A. Bedin are my clerks, and John O'Lone and Harry Cassell work in the store. Q. Are these all Canadians ? — A. The two clerks are Canadians, and Harry Cas- sell was born in England, and John O'Lone in Ireland. Q. They are almost as good as Canadians? — A. Possibly. Q. You are the only American, I suppose ? — A. Yes, sir. Commission adjourned at 1 P.M. to 2 P.M. Commission resumed at 2 P.M. Austin J. Dawdy, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. You are a brakeman on the Pere Marquette railway? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you come to St. Thomas ? — A. In November, 1904. Q. Where from?— A. Buffalo. ALIEXS OX PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAX 61 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. What road were you on there?— A. On the Erie. Q. How long had you been there? — A. Between eleven and twelve years. Q. When did you leave the Erie road?— A. I quit there on December 29. Q. You came here in November?— A. That was the first time I was in; I came here and started work on January 2. Q. What did you come here in November for? — A. Looking for a job. Q. You were still connected with the Erie at that time? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Why was it necessary to come here? — A. Well, it was a new road, and I thought I would try and better myself. Q. Better your position? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. What were you getting on the Erie?— A. It just depends upon what kind of run you have; some runs pay more than another. Q. What was your average? — A. Two dollars and twenty cents a day was th« job I was on. Q. Was that the average \ — ^A. That is what they paid on pick-ups. Q. Who was it you saw here in November? — ^A. I saw Mr. Smith; the train- master was not here; I stayed iiere three da^, and I could not see the trainmaster — he was sick or out of town — and I came back again. Q. You saw Mr. Smith?— A. Yes. Q. Was he the clerk in the trainmaster's office? — A. Yes, and he said he did not know when the trainmaster would be back, and I stayed here three or four days, and I came back again. Q. And you returned in January? — ^A. The latter part of December; I went to work on January 2. Q. At what wage ? — A. They pay so much a mile. Q. Three cents a mile? — ^A. They do not get. hardly that; it just depends, some runs pay more than others; the west end pays a little more than the east end, and it depends on which end you have to work. Q. You have not your choice? — ^A. No, you go where you are sent. Q. Are the wages greater than you had been obtaining on the Erie? — A. No, sir. Q. Not as good? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You have not bettered your position yet? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You are hoping for better days? — ^A. Yes. Q. Your wife and family live in Buffalo? — ^A- No, they are here now. Q. They were living in Buffalo at the time? — ^A. Yes. Q. Did you write to any one over here about your coming here? — ^A. No, sir, I came here myself. Q. Without any invitation? — A. No invitation whatever. Q. No hobo put it into your mind? — ^A. No, sir. Q. You are an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Your people live in Hamilton, your father and mother? — ^A. My mother is dead. Q. Your father lives in Hamilton, Ontario? — ^A. Yea, sir. Q. Has he always lived there? — A. No, sir, he moved there when I was about six years old. Geobge Penny, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. What position do you occupy on the Pere Marquette in St. Thomas ?— A. Brakeman. i -n /. t Q. When did you come to St. Thomas ?— A. I hired from WalkerviUe first ; I started on the road September 20. Q. Where were you living at the time you hired with the Pere Marquetts?— A I was boarding in Windsor. €2 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. Where were you working ? — A. I had been previously working in Detroit. Q. With the Farrand Organ Company ? — A. No, sir, the Cadillac Cabin Company. Q. Had you been with the Farrand Organ Company before that? — A. No, sir, just nine months before. Q. For nine months? — A. Yes. Q. You went to the Cadillac Cabin Company? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were engaged with them up to September, 1904? — A. Yes, that is about the time. Q. While you were engaged by them you made application to be appointed brakeman on the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Whom did you apply to for the position? — A. The trainmaster. Q. Where? — A. From Windsor. Q. Was the trainmaster at Windsor? — A. No, sir, St. Thomas. Q. Who was the trainmaster? — A. Mr. Cameron. Q. Did you apply at the Detroit offices?— A. No, sir. Q. Did not know the Detroit offices? — A. No. Q. Sure?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know Mr. Babbitt in the Detroit office ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you get any one to write to the Company in Detroit on your behalf? — A. No one at all. Q. The Farrand Organ Company wrote? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know the signature of the Superintendent of that company? — A. I ■could not say. Q. Do you think that is his signature to that letter ? — A. I could not swear to his signature at all. Q. How did they come to write on the 9th September to the Pere Marquette at Detroit : ' Mr. George Penney has worked for us as cabinet maker for the past six or eight months. I have found him a reliable and good worker ' — did you ask him for any such recommendation? — A. I asked the Farrand Organ Company when I left their service for a recommendation, but it was not for the interests of the railroad, it ■was for my own use, wherever I went to. Q. You gave this to Mr. Babbitt ? — A. No, sir ; when they asked me for my record I sent that in to the Pere Marquette. Q. To whom did you send it? — ^A. I sent it to the trainmaster. Q. You also sent other certificates ?^-A. Yes, sent the C.P.R. Q. When was it you were employed, about the 23rd September, 1904 ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You have been working ever since ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were born in England? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you become an American citizen? — A. On the 17th September. Q. Last year? — A. Yes, sir. Q. I see you took some pride in putting down your nationality as an American citizen, you were just full of it at that time ; did you think that was going to assist yoii in getting on the Pere Marquette? — A. Not at all. Q. You had been working in Detroit up to that time? — ^A. Yes'. Q. And that was the reason you became an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many years had you been working in Detroit? — A. About 18 months, I Ihink. Q. Is that all?— A. Yes. Q. Where were you before that ? — A. On the C P. E. for six years. Mr. Coburn. — ^That letter is not addressed to the company? The Commissioner — No; it is initialled by Mr. Babbitt. Mr. Coburn. — It is to whom it may concern. The Commissionek — Yes. Mr. Coburn — -Mr. Babbitt is a Michigan Central officer here. Mr. Pyeatt. — I think there was a clerk in Detroit employed, but I do not know any one by the name of Babbitt. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 63 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Angus E. McIntyhe, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. You are a pipe-fitter? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In the shops at St. Thomas of the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You came from Saginaw to here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. April of this yeai-? — A. Yes,sir. Q. Do your family reside still in Saginaw ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you living there? — A. I lived there my whole lifetime. I was employed outside the city by a Saginaw concern, hut that was my home. Q. How many years were you on the railway there ? — A. I was nearly seven years. Q. You are a married man with a family? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. You Iniew Mr, Greening there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you work under him? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know Mr. Frank Swigart? — A. No, sir. Q. Who was it you knew in St. Thomas besides Mr. Groening? — A. I was not ac- quainted with anybody in St. Thomas. Q. Did Mr. Essick speak to you about St. Thomas? — A. No, sir. Q. Who spoke to you about St. Thomas? — A. No one. Q. How did you come to remove here ? — A. I was dissatisfied with my position in Saginaw, and being Mr. Groening was a friend of mine I thought possibly there might be an opportunity for me to get work here, and I came looking for work. Q. Did you get transportation? — A. Yes, sir. Q. From whom? — A. An order from Mr. Essick to Mr. Bowden. Q. Mr. Bowden is the master mechanic? — A. Yes, sir. Q. At Saginaw ? — A. Yes. It is customary after being in the service a number of years, and leaving everything satisfactorj', for them to give you transportation which- ever way you wish to go. Q. Did you know there was a vacancy at that time ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did not hear about that? — A. No, sir. Q. When did you arrive here? — A. The night of the sixth. Q. When did you see Mr. Groening? — A. I saw Mr. Groening the forenoon of the seventh. Q. The next morning? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you taken on? — A. I started to work Saturday. Q. What were you receiving over at Saginaw? — A. 24 cents. Q. And here 26 cents?— A. Yes. Q. So that you have bettered your position ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. To what place did you ask for transportation? — A. To St. Thomas. Q. Did you know anything at all about a vacancy here? — A. No, sir. Q. No one spoke to you about it ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you hear they were employing men here? — A. No, sir. Q. How did you come when you did not know they were employing men? — A. I relied on my abilities as a mechanic, and thinking possibly Mr. Groening being a friend of mine that if there was any opening I might be able to get something. Q. You knew Mr. Groening was here and had charge of the works? — A. Yes, I knew he was here, and what his position was I was not sure. Q. You knew it would be a good position he would occupy? — A. Yes, I presume he would not leave Saginaw unless he got something better. Q. That is the reason you left Saginaw? — A. I left there with the expectation of bettering myself if possible. Q. You were on the same system? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they transfer you here?— A. No, sir. Q. Who was it you spoke to about coming to St. Thomas while you were at Sa^ji- naw ? — A. I never spoke to any one until the day I quit there. Q. The day you quit, whom did you speak to about it? — A. I just sp^iko to the foreman of the pit-side, Mr. Eick; told him 1 was through there that night, that was 64 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 an hour before quitting time, and I could not see none of them until Monday after- noon I went tiiere. I was rather undecided which way T was to go. I had been work- ing for a concern there at Saginaw before, aad I went up there and I saw them, and they offered me a position, and it was travelling on the road all the while, and I did not bother, and thought I would look for something else. I thought of Mr. GroeniBg, and thought there might possibly be some openiag 'here, airl if there was not T would go further. Q. You received no letter from Mr. Essick to come here? — A. No, sir; they were dissatisfied at my leaving there. Q. You are an American citizen? — A. Yes. Q. Mr. Greening, of course, knew that when he appointed you? — A. Yes, sir. Charles Welch, sworn, examined: By the Commissioner: Q. You came from Ohio? — A. Yes, sir. Q. From Tulton County?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Where your people still live? — ^A. 'Yes. J Q. When did you come here? — A. In the' middle of December. Q. What did you do when you came here in December? — A. I went to work for this company. Q. Who was it employed you? — A. Mr. Royce. Q. .Was he the general foreman of the shops ? — A. He was at Walkerville. Q. It was to Walkerville you came ?^A. Yes, sir. Q. Did any one write to you to apply there, or to go there, or offer you a position ? —A. No, sir. Q. How did you come to apply?— A. I was in Detroit, and I came across. Q. liiving in Detroit?— A. No, just came there from Saginaw. Q. Were you working at Saginaw ? — A. No, sir, I was working north of Bay City. Q. On this road? — A. No, sir. Q. What were you working at? — ^A. For myself. Q. In what capacity? — A. Lumbering. Q. You came from Bay City to Detroit ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you arrive at Detroit? — A. About the 7th December. Q. What induced you to come to Detroit? — A. Something to work. Q. Any friend of yours in Detroit? — A. No, sir. Q. Came without any inducements whatever to Detroit? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom did you apply in Detroit for work? — A. I did not apply there at all Q. Did not apply in Detroit?— A. No, sir. Q. Where did you apply for work ? — A. I came across the river to Walkerville. Q. Who did you see there? — A. I saw this company, Mr. Eoyce, and I hired to him. Q. What wages? — A. The scale of wages on the road. Q. You hired as a brakeman? — A. A fireman. Q. They examined you as to your ability to act as fireman? — A. Yes. Q. Had you acted as fireman before? — A. Yes. Q. Where?— A. On the Grand Trunk. Q. Battle Creek?— A. Yes, sir. Q. That is a couple of years before that? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And you left them in March, 1902 ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did not give you high enough wages ? — A. No. Q. What were they giving you there? — A. Different rates. Q. So much a mile? — A. Yes. Q. Is that the way firemen are paid? — A. Yes, by mileage. Q. Who is Mr. B. E. Lyons? — A. School teacher. Q. He gives you a very good character as an industrious young man; you wrote to him for that?— A. Yes, sir. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 65 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. I suppose you are an American citizen? — A. Yes, sir. Q. And have you been in the employment of the company ever since? — A. Ye», sir. t Q. I hope given satisfaction? — A. Well, as far as I ftnow. The Commissioner— (To Mr. Cobum).— I have got all the information I can g;t to-day. You can call any witnesses you wish. Edward F. McCabthy, called by Mr. Coburn, sworn, examined: By Mr. Coburn: Q. You are yard master here at St. Thomas for the Pere Marquette? — A. I am general yar^ master for the Pere Marquette at St. Thomas. Q. What are your duties in regard to hiring men? — A. Nothing but hiring tho man I think is fit for the job, that is, Canadians. Q. What jobs? — A. Switching, charge of engines. Q. It is charged that preference is given to aliens and that Canadians are dis- charged in order that aliens may be hired? — A. Not in my case. Q. Has anything of that sort taken place? — A. Never taken place to my knowl- ed'ge, not in my jurisdiction. * Q. Have you done anything of the sort? — A. I have hired since I have been there about six men, and every one of them were Canadians with families in St. Thomas. Q. Have you had applications from men from the other side? — A. Yes, I have had two that I know of. Q. Did you hire either one of them? — A. No, sir, I sent them to Mr. Cain; ona man came from Saginaw, Michigan, worked for the Pere Marquette there, and one off the Lehigh in the east. The man from the Lehigh was brought to me by some of the train men to give him a job and I sent him to Mr. Cain, told Mr. Cain about him, that he was off the Lehigh, and also this man from Saginaw off the Pere Marquette, and TVr-r. Cain advised me they did not look good to him, and that settled' it. I turned around and hired William Middleton of the city, and Michael O'Connor of the city. Q. You had those places vacant at that time? — A. Yes, sir, I needed men. Q. You have had no such instructions ? — A. No, sir, when I hire a man there are no questions asked if he suits. Q. All you look for is competent help ? — A. If the man suits me I keep him. By the Commissioner: Q. How long have you been yard master ? — A. I have been yard master all winter, and general yard master about three months. Q. Prom what time in winter? — A^ I do not know just when I did take charge of the yards. Q. December or January? — A. Early in December. Q. Who appointed you? — A. I was appointed before Mr. Cain came 'by Mr. Cameron. Q. What had you been doing previously ? ? — A. Switching in the yard. ■ Q. For how long ? — A. From Augvist the 26th. Q. And before that ? — A. With the Grand Trunk Company in London. Q. You had been there for a number of years? — A. No, I had been with the Grand Trunk twenty-six years previous to five or six years ago, I went away and worked for the the next station for the passenger train. I said, ' O'Lome, you get ofi and tell the despatcher that I said give us whole main track order at Clancy,' that is the meet- ing point. It was a very stormy night, we could not see very far ahead and the wind was blowing. So we pulled right on to the tank. I said, ' O'Lome, you be watching for your signals, and we won't delay the passenger train except for five or ten minutes.' We pulled up to the tank. I came over to the engine, and he said he had an order which says ' Meet number 14 engine — I forget the number — at Clancy.' I says, ' Well, why did not he give us the main line ? It would save time ?' He said, ' I do not know, I asked him for it.' I did not say anything more about that, and we pulled over to Clancy, and we could not see very far ahead, and we stopped some dis- tance from the switch because we were afraid to pull up by the switch,, and really a little afraid they would pull in.„ We could see the head-light up there, but we could not tell whether it was on the main line or side track, and the brakeman went up and said the passenger train was coming up the side track, something unusual if they had an order to meet us there, something unusual, because they had the right track, and it would have been a very good meeting point, and it would have delayed neither crain if the order had been given like I said, giving us right to the north switch in- stead of the south switch. I came in, I did not get in here for two or three days, and I called Mr. Kirkpatrick to my office and told him to bring his train order book in. He came in with it. I says, ' Look back at such and such a date, I want to see your order.' He looked at the book. He says, ' Mr. Cain, I have changed books since that, and the other book is out there.' I said, ' That is all right, I will take your word Kirk; what kind of an order did you give number 14 with engine 199 when we were going north the night of this accident V He said, ' I gave order to meet 199 there.' ' Tou did not give them an order to take siding V ' No.' ' Why did you not ? ' He said, ' I did not know you wanted me to.' I said, ' Did not the operator at Wallace- burg tell you I said to give us whole main track order ?' He said, ' No.' I said, ' It is all right then. I do not blame you at all.' I thought then it was a little strange, but I took his word for it. I was on this passenger train with Conductor Pearce three or four days afterwards and I asked him, ' How was it you took siding at Clancy the night engine 199 had an order to meet you there ?' He reached dovm in his pocket and said, ' I have an order to take sidings.' He pulled out an order which said, ' Take siding, and meet engine extra north 199 at Clancy.' I knew then Mr. Kirkpatrick was lying to me. I did not mjnd him being a poor despatcher, but when a man can- not tell you the truth you had better get rid of him. A despatcher is really an official of the company, and his work would be reliable. I did not say anything to Kirk- patrick about it, I had not time, and I was figuring relieving him, but I guess he must have found out I heard about it and he resigned. Why he has a grievance I cannot say. He resigned, and of course they possibly thought they could make some capital out of it, on acocunt of the way things have been lately. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 81 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d By Mr. Cohurn: Q. If he had not resigned you would have dismissed him I — A. Yes, I would have discharged him for making a false statement, which is customary on railroads. Q. In regard to the traffic getting over the road, I understand, a year ago it used to take very much longer than it does now < — A. I think there is no doubt about it, in tirst place we had a great deal of trouble at Chatham and Blenheim, and I think any of our train men running west out of here will tell you the same thing. Q. I was going to ask you if the power was responsible for that? — A. No, the power could not have affected Blenheim or Chatham whatever, it was the condition of the yard and! the manner they had in setting out and picking up cars. When they set out their cars there was no distinction made as to whether it was Blenheim proper, or north-west, east or south, the first track they would get to they would slam it in on, and have all Conditions of oars. Q. And some official of the company would be responsible for that? — A. Yes, I have seen trains delayed there ten hours picking up a train of 25 or 30 cars. They had ears in the gravel pit a couple of miles above town, and Blenheim west had three tracks, and down town they had three tracks; the conditions there were as bad as they could have been. They had' a passing track there that has not been blocked since, and that was always blocked before. You heard what those conductors said about being delayed meeting trains on account of having tracks filled. I left instructions there that" this track should not be blocked under any circumstances, put up a bulletin to that effect, and also that cars for the east would be set out on the scale track at Blenheim, and nothing else should be set out on that track. Cars for the north on the dock track, and cars for the west on the Blenheim west track, or something in that line, a ttack for each direction. I do not think we have had a train that has been otelayed there since that time more than two hours no matter how many ears they had to pick up. Before it was hard to get them through under four or five hours, and it was a bad place for trains to meet, and a very important station, a junction point. That also applies to Chatham. Chatham was a point that had a number of side-tracks, that there was no understood rule at all about where they would leave their cars. We had a switching engine there, and still they did not have their cars switched together. If a train would come in there to pick up ten or fifteen cars for the north they would have to switch iSiem. Now I think they find them all switched together. I think most of our train- men can tell you that. That accounts for the delay and the congested condition when v;e came here; and Walkerville it applies the same way. There was no rule there about the way things should be switched. In fact it applies to every point on the line if it is a point where trains reduce and pick up, and so forth. It is a very important point on any railroad. Q. I understand bad order cars were left indefinitely on passing tracks? — A. Any where. Q. Frequently on passing tracks? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that if a train came there with passing orders they had to get it passed first ? — A. Possibly chain the car up to handle it. Q. These are now reported by the despatchers; there is a bulletin issued? — A. What is that? Q. In regard to passing tracks blocked? — A. When a passing track is blocked, the dispatcher is supposed to notify all trains as to that, especially if it is a bad order car there should be an order put out for it. Q. Were any instructions, verbal or otherwise, ever given to your knowledge in regard to the employment of aliens or Canadians, or discrimination between one and the other? — A. No, I employ all the men myself, that is all the train men, I recom- mend' them. The Commissioner. — He answered that yesterday. — A. Yes, there is no distinction, they all look alike. The Commissioner. — That is if fhey are white. 36^—6 82 REPORT OF ROYAL CO 31 MIS SIGN 4-5 EDWARD VH., A. 190S Q. You were speaking about the congested state of affairs at the time you came here? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew nothing about it previous to ttat? — A. No, I found it bad enough without going back. Q. You do not know how the state of affairs existed prior to that? — A. No, sir, only what I have heard the trainmen say ; I had quite a number of them — ^whether they were jollying me or not I cannot say — come to me and say they were making their money much easier than before, it was quite a different railway. Q. You are speaking from two or three weeks after you came here? — A. It took us possibly three or four weeks to get straightened out, but we finally got everything so that we could get over the road. Q. You have heard what the conductors say, the great reason for the improvement was in these engines that they get? — A. We had no new engines at all. v Q. But you have had better engines since? — A. It was a long while before the engines were much better ; one thing I understand was that our trains were badly over- loaded. Q. You heard what Mr. Pyeatt stated, that he got two or three engines from the other side immediately? — A. Not new engines, but in the statements which you got from the conductors you said new engines ; they were not new engines. Q. They were new engines to them. I suppose they inight take it in that way; they were better engines than they had been accustomed to. Is not that the case ?- Q. Were not they better engines than they were accustomed to? — A. What they mean by that Q. Were not they better than they were accustomed to have? — A. Those four engines were loaned for possibly a month or so and they were returned at a time when we needed them, pretty bad, when they got in bad shape and we were forced to return them. What they meant by the new engines were engines that were being turned out with a lot of black paint on them. Q. WIere not these engines they got from Saginaw better than they had been using up to that time? — A. We had sotae engines here as good as them. , Q. Were not these engines better than they had been accustomed to using before that ?— A. I say no. Q. Then you heard what they stated that they were better engines? — A. They might have been in better condition. Q. And would be better for power purposes? — A. No, we have some engines that were really larger. Q. Do you wish to say that these men were stating what is not correct? — A. I think they were a little misled by the question you asked about new engines. That is the only point I am making. Q. What they said was they were better engines and better power for the purpose for which they were used ? — A. That can be taken several ways. We have two engines that were here at the time that we borrowed that are a larger class of engines, handling more ears than those engines you refer to; that is what I am trying to tell you, but they were really not better engines. Q. These conductors say they were better engines ; they are good men ? — A. Yes. Q. As good as Americans ? — A. I do not- taake any distinction like you. Q. Do not answer that way. As good as Americans ? — A. Yes. Q. You have had experience with both? — A. Yes, I never knew the difference; in fact they all seem like Americans to me ; they all look alike and talk alike. Q. They are equaLto the Americans as conductors and engineers? — A. Yes; we have not brought Americans to take their place. Q. You brought Gary ; you state very plainly all these talks with Ki'rkpatrick and Knight, but you forgot to state you brought Gary? — A. Yes, we needed a despateher pretty bad, and Gary was very much better than either of those men. Q. Could you not get any one in Canada ? — A. I could not at that time. ALIENS ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 83 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Did you not try? — A. Yes, asked' the Michigan Central people if they had a man to let us have. Q. Americans? — A. I do not think they have any Americans over there. I don't know of any. Q. Do you know any at all? — A. Yes. Q. Any Canadians? — A. I do not know; I did not ask. Q. You did not advertise for a despatcher ? — A. No. Q. Let us see about this question of the dismissal of Mr. Hutchison, the conduc- tor; you dismissed him, I understand? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Whpn was that? — A. I think it was the day before yesterday. Q. Monday? — A Yes, sir Q. And the brakeman, too ? — A. Yes. Q. Two brakemen? — A. One brakeman. Q. One brakeman was dismissed and one suspended? — A. Yes, sir. Q. On what ground did you dismiss them?-^A. For good cause. Do we have to investigate this case here ? Q. Is there any objection to your doing so? — A. Yes, sir, I think there is. I do not want to be disrespectful at all and I am trying to answer all your questions, -but I think that is a bad piece of discipline to bring Mr. CoBURN. — I might suggest this question: Where they dismissed because they were Canadians and to make way The Commissioner. — No, let me ask it in the way I wish. Mr. CoBURN. — Then I think it is outside the investigation. The Commissioner. — I do not think it is outside the investigation if they were dismissed on one ground when the other ground would not enable them to dismiss them. Q. They were dismissed because of an accident. I am not going into it so as to injure your case ? — A. The only thing is I do not like to bring this up Q. You are not in court about it? — A. That is what I want to know. Q. No one has sued you in connection with it? — :A. No. Q. And no one is likely to sue you in connection with it ? — A. I do not think so. Q. What was the ground you dismissed them upon?^A. For a burnt-journal; any road in the country will dismiss them for the same thing. Q. Was it a burnt- journal? — A. No doubt on earth about it. Q. Was it not a broken journal? — A. No, sir, it was a burnt journal. Q. You heard what two men said they heard? — A. Yes. Q. Was it a burnt journal or a broken journal? — A. A burnt journal. Q. Wlho would know about that? — A. Mr. McManamy would be as good a judge Si anybody; he is here. Q. Who investigated it? — A. I did. Q. Who else besides you? — A. No one besides me. Q. Did Mr. McManamy ? — A. Mr. McManamy helped pick up the wreck, but I in- vestigated the accident. It was my duty to do that. Q. And if it was a broken journal the dismissal would have been improper? — A. I would not have dismissed them if it was a broken journal. Q. You heard what Mr. Arnum stated with reference to Mr. Knight and Mr. Kirkpatrick's manner in which they performed their duties? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Entirely to his satisfaction? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you anything to say as to that? — A. I think I have said enough about those young men to show what I thought about them. Q. Have you anything to say as to what Mr. Arnum said? — A. Mr. Arnum could not be judged as chief despatcher ; he had worked temporarily as chief despatcher when everything was bad, and I understood that he wanted to get out of it as quick as he could. There was no reason why Mr. Arnum should get up here and say they were not good despatchers. If I had been in his position possibly I would have said the same thing, that is as far as he was concerned. 36fZ— 64 84 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. I do not know how you would have said the same thing unless it was trtie ; now you wish to say Mr. Arnum was not telling what was true ? — ^A. No, he might have said so. Q. Had not he the experience to state so ? — A. He might be a good despatcher and not abl^ to judge who else was. Q. He had experience with these two men for some years ?— A. No. Q. For a long time? — A. No. Q. How long was EJaight there? — A. Knight did not work there as despatcher very long ; I do not know. Q. How long was Kirkpatrick there ? — A. Six or eight months as despatcher. Q. Tou had the experience of a week or two?^A. They'' were not very touch of Hespatehers there to be train despatchers, the way they were' handling despatching. Q. He had the experience with these men during all that time and there were no complaints whatever made againgt their work? — A. There was as soon as we found their work Q. As soon as you came you complained against their work ? — A. Yes. Q. And you have explained why you dismissed them? — A. Yes. ■ Q. I will have to investigate that, because you have given hearsay evidence about what some man told you about the despatch, the order? — A. He gave me the copy of the order. Q. Was Mr. Arnum not in a good position to state exactly the qualifications of these two men? — A. If he had been in the position of chief despatcher longer he pos- sibly would have been, but he was new; hfe had just taken it over. Q. How long did he act? — A. He only acted sotoething like two weeks. It was new to him and he was so busy he had no time to pay attention to what his despatchers were doing, and everything was bad, and I am not finding fault with Mr. Arnum, but people have difPerent opinions and I am positive in what I have told you, that neither Mr. Knight or Mr. Kirkpatrick were train despatchers. Q. They have acted for a number of months as such ? — A. But the Sarnia divi- sion they worked was more of a job as telegraph operator; it is only 66 jailes and very few trains. Q. You understand Mr. Knight worked the whole system all night after midnight ? — A. I never knew he was on that. Q. Youdidnot know exactly what he was capable of doing? — A. Yes, I could see very clearly. Q. Mr. Arnum A. I think I know more about judging toen of that class than Mr. Arnum does. Q. And it was because of your knowledge of judging men A. I am a practical train despatcher and worked a good many years on various roads, and I was always considered a good train despatcher, and I do not think these men were good train des- patchers, and Mr. Arnum said there was no objection to their work and considered them good train despatchers, and I think he is evidently not capable of judging them. John McManamy, re-called: By the Commissioner: Q. You remember about this accident which occurred for which Mr. Hutchison and a couple of brakemen were dealt with ? — A. Yes, sir . Q. What was the trouble about the journal? — A. The journal was broken on ac- count of it being extremely hot. I have the journal, or have the wheel and the axle and the piece where it was broken off at the Pere Marquette shop, and it will speak very plainly for itself. In railroad circles it was what we call a burnt-off journal. Well, there never was such a thing existed as a burnt-off journal. They get extremely hot and break from the fact of being hot. Q. This really was a broken journal? — A. It was a broken journal caused from being extremely hot and cutting. The metal on the outside of the journal was hot. ALIENS OK PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 85 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. What caused the over-heating? — A. In the first place getting dry. Q. Whose duty is it to look after the journal? — A. It is the conductor's; his duty on the road. After the train leaves the terminal it is the conductor's duty to see the train goes through safe and to look after the ioumals on the road. Q. Is that a portion of the duty of every conductor ? — A. Yes, sir, and every con- ductor is aware of it, that it is a portion of his duty to look after the journals after he leaves the terminal point, and a hot journal he knows he is responsible for it. Q. How long would it be before he knew after it became hot? — A. I should judge the journal had been smoking and probably on fire for 10 or 1'2 or 15 miles. Q. Where would it have commenced to smoke before it burnt it? — A. It would commence to smoke and the smoke would be plainly seen from the rear end of the train, and the smoke and smell could! plainly be distinguished from the rear end of the train. Q. Could that have taken place before leaving the station ? — A. It could have taken place between stopping places, but there is positive proof they knew the journal was hot. Q. How did they know the journal was hot? — A. As I understand it the brake- man borrowed an oil can and endeavoured to oil this particular box, and instead of stopping as he should have done he oiled it going along the road; so that he knew it was hot. , Q. How soon did they know it was hot after it became hot ? — A. They would have sufficient time to stop and cool it ; it would take a journal at least thirty minutes after it got hot before it could get heated to the extent it was when it was broken off. I saw the journal and I saw the box, and I have the axle at the shop. On top of the journal there is the journal brass or bearing, and on top of that brass there is a cast-iron wedge and this wedge had been red-hot. I saw the wedge when I picked up the wreck. The wedge itself had been red-hot, not only the journal and brass, but the wedge, and that wedge showed colour just the same as it would after being taken out of a blacksmith's fire. Q. You do not know to what extent the brakeman did oil the journal? — A. No, because I was not present at the time, but that I understand was given in evidence, that he borrowed the oil can of the engineer to go back and oil" the journal instead of stopping. Q. Were they running at the time? — A. Yes, by getting dovra. at the side of a car he could look at the journal and he could get the oil can in the box, and he could oil the box by getting on the end of the car. Q, Your belief is it was burnt off in consequence of the neglect of the conductor to examine it before starting? — ^A. Yes, sir, there is no question about that. Q. That is the reason he was dismissed from your employment? — A. Yes, sir. Q. How many conductors are there on the Buffalo division? — A. I do not know. Q. How many engineers are there? — A. In the neighborhood of sixty. y . How many firemen ? — A. About the same amount. Q. How many conductors are there, Mr. Cain? Mr. Cain. — About 30 or 35 conductors and about 100 brakemen. Mr. Pyeatt stated that Mr. Gilhula's son was only engaged temporarily for about a week and is not now in the service. The Commissioner. — I desire to examine Mr. Cameron and Mr. Kirkpatrick, and possibly Mr. Knechtel, in Toronto; would next Monday answer your purpose to at- tend ? Mr. CoBURN. — I am afraid I cannot count on any time next week. The Commissioner. — I suppose your agent could attend in Toronto ? Mr. /CoBURN. — Yes, I could arrange that. It is a little difficult to know how to instruct an agent without knowing what is coming up. The Commissioner. — I desire to examine Mr. Kirkpatrick, Mr. Knechtel and Mr. Cameron. 86 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Mr. CoBURN. — ^Mr. Kneelitel never was here. The Commissioner. — After I examine Mr. Woollatt in the morning perhaps I will not require to call Mr. Knechtel. Adjourned at 4.30 p.m. to 10 a.m. to-morrow morning. Commission resumed at 10 a.m., April 2Y, 1905, at the Court House, St. Thomas. Present : His Honour Judge Winchester, Commissioner. A. O. Jeffery, K.C, for Dominion Government. (Mr. Cohum was not present.) WiLLUM WooLATT, sworn, examined : By the Commissioner : Q. I understand you were general manager of the Lake Erie and Detroit Kiver Eailway for a number of years ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you general manager from the beginning of the organization of that railway ? — ^A. No, sir. Q. For how many years ? — A. I came to the road in 1889; I was traffic manager and general superintendent. Q. General superintendent of the road ? — A. Tes. Q. From 1889 to when ?— A. 1900. Q. Then you became what ? — A. General manager. Q. Prior to that, what had you been doing ? — A. With the Northern and North- western Eailway and the Grand Trunk Eailway for seventeen years. Q. What position did you occupy with the Northern ? — A. Clerk, and general clerk in the different departments, audit department and traffic department. Q. So that you had been a railroad man for a long time ? — A. Nearly thirty-three years. Q. What roads or lines had you charge of when you were general manager ? — A. The Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver Eailway system, which comprised the Erie and Huron and London and Port Stanley. Q. That is just the same system that we understand under the name of Buffalo division of the Pere Marquette railroad ? — A. Yes, sir, except since July of 1903 there has been added to the Buffalo division supervision of the running of trains from St. Thomas to the Niagara frontier. Q. From St. Thomas east ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. During that time who was your train master in charge of that system ? — A. K. E. Cameron. Q. For how many years ? — A. For about five and a half years. Q. Who were your despatchers ? — A. Fred. Arnum, Black and Kirkpatrick, with Knight as relieving despatcher. ' Q. Who was your master mechanic ? — A. Stewart Austin until July, 1902, I think, or thereabouts. Q. And then who succeeded him ? — A. W. K. Christie. Along in 1902, or early in 1903, the supervision of the officers of the Pere Marquette Eailway was extended over the Buffalo division. Q. Then who was the civil engineer in charge ? — A. Owen MacKay. Q. Who was the storekeeper ? — A. Knechtel. ALIEy.<~ ox FERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 87 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Had you any district passenger agent ? — A. Xo, sir; it was done under the general freight and passenger agent, Mr. Thomas Marshall. Q. At London ? — A. He was at Walkerville at that time. Q. Had you any London office ? — A. Just the general agent's office for freight and passenger work, the supervision of crews and so on. Q. There was no district passenger agent at that time ? — A. No. Q. Who was your round-house foreman ? — A. That was under Austin, as mechani- cal superintendent. I have forgotten the name of the foreman under him. Q. At least how many years were these respective officials under you ? — ^A. The mechanical superintendent would have been eight or ten years, and the chief en- gineer was assistant engineer when I came on to the road in 1889. Q. And continued so until when ? — A. The death of the chief engineer, till he was promoted. Q. And Mr. Cameron five years or so ? — A. Five and a half years as train master, and prior to that he had been some sis or seven years as stenographer and des^atcher. He had been with the company some twelve years. Q. And the storekeeper, Mr. Knechtel ? — A. He had been with the company some five or six years, I think. Q. What were the qualifications of these different officials for their respective offices ? — A. I consider them perfectly competent. Q. Had you any complaints against their abilities or qualifications ? — A. No, sir. Q. Were you satisfied with their qualifications ? — A. Quite so. Q. And the manner in which they performed their duties ? — A. Quite so. Q. No fault whatever to find with them ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did the public complain at all of the i)erformance of their duties ? — A. I think not, not to my knowledge. Q. Tdu think the public was perfectly satisfied ? — A. Yes, so far as I know. Q. When was it that the Pere Marquette took charge of the old system ? — A. In January of 1902. Q. What condition was the road in at that time ? — A. The physical condition ? Q. Yes ? — A. In very good condition. Q. Sufficient power ? — A. To handle its local business. Q. Had you a through business ? — A. Not at that time, the through business about January 20, 1902. Q. That was after the Pere Marquette took possession ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. It was said here the other day that when Mr. Pyeatt took charge he found the power, in very, very bad condition and the system generally run down; what do you say to that ?— A. I think Mr. Pyeatt would be jxerfectly correct with reference to the power being in bad condition, because we had not shops sufficient to take care o-f the power, and we had more business than the power or facilities we had would accommodate, but so far as the general condition of the railroad, I dT n")t think there was any Q. Mr. Cain stated that when he took charge the yards were congested and the trains were running in a very poor manner, what is the cause of that? — A. If there was such a congested condition it would be due to the lack of power to move the busi- ness. Q. You think it is entirely a lack of power ? — A. There is no question about that. Q. What was the cause of lack of power ? — A. The poor condition of the engines and the lack of facilities to get them in proper condition. Q. Who was to blame for that ? — A. The lack of facilities for the shops, of not having sufficient shop room. Q. Who is responsible for the facilities ? — A. The whole trouble was the through business was put on to us to handle before we had proper facilities for the handling of it. I think that condition existed on the entire Pere Marquette system, as much on the other side as on this, for when I asked for power to move the business the 88 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1903 general superintendent informed me that they were just about as hard up for power on the other side as they were on this. Q. And you did everything you could in order to get the power ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you apply more than once ? — A. Yes, frequently, and for sidings, passing tracks, as far back as, well, early in 1902. Q. And continuously up to the time you left the service ? — A. Yes, sir, went over the road with the former general superintendent, Mr. A. M. Smith, laying out where the sidings should be, but they were not forthcoming. Q. What was the reason for that ? — A. I don't know, that would be with the management. Q. You had no control over that ? — A. No, I could not spend money till they gave it to me to spend. Q. Did they continue all the old officials on after they had taken charge, the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long? — A. The general order of the exercise of the jurisdiction of the Pere Marquette officials over this division Q. We may call it the Buffalo division ? — A. Yes, came into effect, my memory is, early in 1903, because it was on March 1 — ^yes, it was March 1 that that order went into effect; my title was changed to superintendent of this division. Q. At the same salary ? — A. Yes. Q. All the old officials continued at the same salaries they had been receiving from the former road ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. No increase made during your time ? — A. Occasionally here and there, but no general increase. Q. So that I may say that all. the old officials were continued on until they left the service at the salaries they had been receiving from the Lake Erie & Detroit Eiver Company ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. Were there any complaints to you about the manner in which the service was being carried on -by the management ? — A. No, sir, except that because of the lack of power we would be asked why we did not move certain business. Q. Your answer was forthcoming? — A. That we required the power to move it. Q. And did they not come to your assistance ? — A. They could not furnish it ; they had not it. » Q. I understood this want of power was a very distracting thing to yourself ? — A. It was. Q. So much so that you hardly knew which way to turn ? — A. It caused my nerves to give out, and I had to resign on that account ; nervous prostration. Q. Wihen did you begin to have such an attack from the over- work ? — A. Probably about two years ago, eighteen months. Q. Was it in consequence of the over-work and the anxiety in consequence of not being able to' run the road as you wanted to run it? — A. Yes, sir; the vice-president and general manager put it in the matter of my taking the railroad to bed with me. Q. And I suppose you did ? — A. A good many nights I did not sleep because of it. Q. When was it you put in your resignation ? — A. Early in November of last year. Q. What lead up to that? — A. The doctor's advice that I must do one of two things, either quit worrying or quit railroading. Q. Had not the management come to your relief up to that time? — A. As far as they were able to, but not sufficiently. Q. Not sufficiently to relieve the strain? — A. No, sir. Q. Nor the large amount of business that was being put upon you? — ^A. No, sir. Q. And that large amount of business was in consequence of the through traffic? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You were quite able with the facilities you had to attend to the local -traffic? — A. Quite so. Q. But with their taking charge and connecting with their own traffic in the United States and making it a through traffic the facilities were not equal to the de- ALIENS ON PERE MARQVETTE RAILWAY 89 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d xaand? — A. That is it, sir. They sent over some fifteen large engines which were not sufficient to handle the through business Q. Had you a sufficient nutnber of employees under you to handle the business? —A. Yes, sir; that is the local business. Q. Yes ?— A. Quite so. Q. And the through business ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Had Mr. Cameron, the train master, a sufficient number of employees to handle his department? — A. I never heard any complaint he had not; always seemed to have sufficient men. Q. How was it it became congested? — A. Because of the lack of power. Q. Not a lack of employees? — A. No. Q. Who succeeded you? — A. Mr. Pyeatt. Q. When? — A. I think the circular appointing Mr. Pyeatt was on the 28th of November. Q. Did you receive any notification that your services would not be required fur- ther? — A. No. I was advised by my general superintendent to take a long rest and \vhen I was fit to come back to railroading they would have a position for me. Q. When did he advise you to do that ? — A. In November when I talked with him iibout my resigning^ (}. Last November? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you follow his advice? — A. I have taken a good long rest. Q. You are not applying for the position again ? — A. Not just at present. Q. You don't know what may take place in the near future ? — A. No. A. I suppose you are quite willing to take charge again if you are asked? — A. I feel my work at present is very congenial and I like it very much. Q. Do you know what led up to Mr. Cameron's resignation ? — A. No, air, I do not. Q. Had you anything to do' with his resigning? — A. No, sir. Q. You had no complaints against him? — A. No. Q. Did Mr. Pyeatt consult with you with reference to the officials? — A. No, sir. Q. Make any complaints to you with reference to them? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you remember Mr. Bartlett? — A. Joe Bartlett, yes, sir. Q. What was his position? — A. General foreman in the Walkerville shop. Q. When did he leave? — A. About July or August, I think, of last year. Q. In your time? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Wihy did he leave? — A. I do not know the reason; the mechanical superinten- dent or master mechanic asked for his resignation. Q. Who was the master mechanic at that time? — A. Mr. W. E. Christie, who suc- ceeded Mr. Austin. Q. Mr. Christie's head office was where?— A. At Saginaw. Q. An American ? — A. I do not know as to that,sir. Q. Was Mr. Bartlett an American? — ^A. No, he was a Canadian. Q. Do you know what Mr. Bartlett is doing now ?— A. I do not know, sir. Q. Who succeeded Mr. Bartlett?— A. Mr. Eoyce. Q. Where from? — A. From Saginaw or Grand Eapids. I am not sure which. Q. Where is Mr. Eoyce now ?— A. I do not know, sir. Q. Do you know who succeeded Mr. Eoyce ?— A. No, sir. Q. That was after you left ?— A. Yes, sir. Q. You had a stenographer or two in your, department. Miss McLean was your stenographer ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What satisfaction did she give to you in the performance of her duties ?— A. She was perfectly satisfactory, she was a little nervous, but with allowance for that she was satisfactory. Q. Did you find her capable ? — . Yes, sir. Q. Qualifications quite sufficient for the work ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You gave her a recommendation in fact when you left ? — A. Yes, sir. 90 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. She is no longer in tiie employ of the Pere Marquette ? — A. No, sir, I be- lieve not. Q. Did you come in contact with Mr. MaeKay as chief engineer ? — A. Yes, sir, quite often. Q. Were his duties performed satisfactorily ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. He is no longer in the service ? — A. No, sir. Q. Mr. Leseur is at present occupying that position ? — A. I bejieve he is. Q. Mr. Knechtel, storehouse keeper, do you knove how he performed his duties ? — A. The stores department came under the general auditor and accountant, Mr. Leslie. I am not familiar with his work. Q. Do you know when Mr. Knechtel left the service ? — A. Along in the fall, I think, of last year, September or October. Q. Before you left ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know why he left ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you know him ? — A. Quite well; Q. Who succeeded him, do you know — Mr. Hunker ? — A. No, sir, I cannot tell the name Q. Where was he from ? — A. From Saginaw shop. Q. Who appointed him ? — A. The general storekeeper, I believe, at Saginaw. Q. Was he an American ? — A. I do not know. Q. You do not know where he is now ? — A. No, sir. Q. What became of Mr. Knechtel ? — A. I believe he secured a position in Berlin. Q. Was he dismissed from office ? — A. I do not know as to his leaving, sir. Q. What was reported to you at the time ? — A. I understood he was resigning and leaving the company's service. Q. You do not know the reason for it ? — A. No, sir — Colon, that is the name, I could not think of it before. Q. He did not remain very long ? — A. He was there when I left. Q. Was Mr. Amum the chief despatcher in your day ? — A. He was acting chief despatcher at the time I resigned. Q. You had nothing to do with the apjKiintment of the chief despatcher ? — ^A. I sanctioned the appointment, that was all. Q. The appointments were made .A. By the train master, subject to my ap- pioval. Q. Was it necessary to obtain the approval of the superintendent of the system ? — A. I thought so. Q. I mean the general superintendent, did he approve of the officials ? — A. I do not know about the general officials, but not of the chief despatcher. Q. You had nothing to do with the others any other time ?^ — ^A. No, sir. Q. What about different sidings on the different lines, were there a sufficient number of them to enable you to perform the work properly ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you cbmplain to the management of the want of sidings ? — A. Quite frequently. Q. And still none given ? — A. None given, as previously stated I went over the line with the general superintendent, Mr. A. M. Smith, last August, and we laid out different points where sidings would be put in, but they were not put in. Q. Have they been put in since ? — A. I believe some have. Q. And some enlarged ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To enable them to perform their work ? — A. Yes. Q. Without these sidings and without enlargement of them could they have per- formed the work any better than you had it done ? — A. There would be serious de- lays, the smaller train would take the sidings and allow the larger one to occupy the main line. Q. That is what you had to do ? — A. Yes. ALIEXfi OX PERE MARQUETTE RAILV^'AY 91 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. Was Mr. Cameron ill for any length of time before he resigned ? — A. Only for a few days. Q. What were the requests you made for better facilities ? — A. As to the num- ber ? Q. Yes ? — A. General request as to more power, I lequired at least six engines, and the larger passing tracks, better water facilities; those were the principal things. Q. Did you get the water facilities ? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know whether they have been obtaineii since ? — A. I do not know. Q. Tou do not know whether tanks have not been supplied since then ? — A. No, sir. Q. Do you know what has been done towards giving these facilities since you left the service ? — A. No, sir, I do not. Q. Do you know how many engines they have supplied ? — A. No. Q. Your son was at Port Stanley acting as agent there?— A. Yes, sir. Q. When did he leave ?— A. September of last year. Q. Why? — A. Purely on his own account. He had the misfortune to loose hig wife while there, and he felt he could not remain in Port Stanley after that, everything reminded him so of the happy home he had, and he could not remain. Q. He is now living in Toronto ? — A. In Montreal. Q. From your very considerable experience as a railroad man would you have any difficulty in filling all the positions I have referred to with Canadians? — A. No, sir,' I would not. Q. Well qualified for the duties? — A. Perfectly. Q. And even if some of those resigned you think you could have supplied their places with Canadians qualified and able to perform the duties satisfactorily? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Without any difficulty? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Would you go to the Wabash and the Michigan Central to get men? — A. T think I would have gone to some roads having Canadians, such as the Canadian Pacific, the Canadian Northern, the Canada Atlantic, the Intercolonial, any other roads in Canada. Q. Not to the two American lines running through St. Thomas ?^A. I think not. Q. You would' not likely get Canadians there? — A. There are a number of Cana- dians there. Q. For these higher positions? — A. Probably not for the highei" positions. Q. But you think there would not be any difficulty in getting them from the other roads, or even apart from the other roads ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you give me the number of hours that a chief despatcher should be required to attend to the duties of that office ? — A. It depends on whether there is a day and a night chief; if there is no night chief a despatcher is usually on probably long hours from fifteen to eighteen hours. Q. Continuous service? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Don't you think that is rather long?— A. It is. Q. Don't you think nervous prostration would very soon follow that? — A. I be- lieve it would if continued. Q. So that a man who was compelled to do that would want a better job else- where very quickly ? — ^A. Yes, sir. Q. How many foremen had you in the mechanical department? — A. One at Wal- kerville and one at St. Thomas. Q. Who were they ? — A. Bartlett and a fellow named Harry Mann in St. Thomas. Q. Do you know if both these men are still in the service? — A. Bartlett is not. Q. I understand he is in Manistee or some position over in the United States now ; have you heard that? — A. I understood he went to the Pacific Coast, San Francisco. Q. You were satisfied with Bartlett's work while you were there ? — A. Yes, sir, of course he came directly under the master mechanic, I held the master mechanic responsible for that. 92 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. That is the way it is still?— A. Yes. Q. Do you think there would be any difficulty in obtaining a Canadian to act as oistrict passenger agent in London? — A. I would not think so. Q. Fiom your knowledge as a railroad man? — A. Yes, sir. Q. You think there would be no difficulty? — A. I would not think so. Q. Mr. Gilhula wishes two or three questions to be asked of you. Did Mr. Gilhula make application to you for a position within the past two years? — A. I would not speak as to the exact time, but he had made application to me, I think, on more than one occasion. Q. Do you know for what position? — A. Train despatcher or chief despatcher or train master. Q. And did you give him any encouragement in that connection? — A. No sir. Q. Do you know what reason Mr. Gilhula had for wishing to return to Canada to live? — A. My memory is that on account of his father and family connections living in Canada, he wished to come back. Q. He assigned' that as a reason? — A. Yes, sip. Q. And I understand he has lost his father since then ? — A. I believe so. Q. Do you know anything about Mr. Cainfe or Mr. Gilhula's abilities as train- masters and chief despatehers respectively ? — A. No, sir. Q. You did not know them previous to their being appointed here ? — A. I think •I met Mr. Gilhula on one or two occasions. Q. As well as receiving applications from him? — A. Yes, but nothing as to his qualifications and ability. Q. You do not know anything about the road since you left, the manner in which it has been conducted at all ? — A. No, sir. Q. 1 think that is all I have to ask you unless you wish to give any statement your- self? — A. No, sir, that is all. Q. I am just told that the large number of beets Ijhat were grown in connection with the sugar factories congested your business considerably at Blenheim and Chat- ham ? — A. That had to do with it as well as the general local business and the through business. Q. Of course they have no such cause for congestion since the new management took place? — A. I believe they were just as badly congested last fall. Q. Not since December 1 ? — A. No, the beet business is over before that, January 1. Q. I am told- there were 600 cars of beets stored a year ago ? — A. No, sir. Q. How many, do you know? — A. There would not be mope than 1-50. Q. On your road? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Where would they be stored? — A. At Dresden, where there was a factory, and at Wallaceburg, where there was a factory, and some at other sidings waiting move- ment, probably altogether 150 or 200 cars. Q. Of course that was owing to the want of power ? — A. Yes, the want of power to move it. Q. That is really the prime reason? — A. That is the kernel. The Commissioner. — Is there any other witness present, or any one else who wishes to give any statement with reference to this before I adjourn? No one responded. Everett E. Cain, was recalled and examined. By the Commissioner: Q. Mr. L. E. Tillson was your general agent at Chatham? — A. No, agent. Q. Agent at Chatham when you were appointed ? — A. Yes. Q. How many men had he under him then ? — A. You refer just to the switchmen ? Q. In charge of the yard? — A. Yes, he had a yard conductor and one switchman. Q. Did he ask for any assistance? — A. 'No additional help, he asked if he could not — this conductor Winegarden was running on the road, but he lived in Chatham — ALIENS ON PEBE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 93 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d ins home is there — Tillson said, ' Winegarden would be glad to take this yard for the winter as his wife is in bed in bad health, he can run it better than anybody else. Can I give it to him? ' I said, ' Yes, that would be all right, if he can run it better than anybody else, give him the place.' Q. Had he been complaining that it was impossible with the staff at his command to handle the trafiic? — A. No, sir, not anything of that kind that I know of. Q. Did you give him verbal instructions to hire another man? — A. No, sir. Q. Only in the way you mentioned? — A. Yes, just merely to take another man's place. Q. Not an additional man? — A. No. You see this man that he had in charge of the yard there, was a man, as I understand it, that he had just taken up there a while before — ^I do not know how long he had had him — ^but he said he was not giving satis- faction, he could not handle the yard. I said r ' If he cannot handle the yard put this other man in his place,' and the thing was all right. And I happened to look over some- thing pertaining to thft pay-rolls, and I noticed he was carrying two men with the yard conductor, two switchmen, and I immediately called Mr. Pyeatt's attention to it, and asked him i'f he knew about it, and he said, ' No, that is ridiculous.' Q. Was that after he had been there about a month? — A. I think the new man had been on — we noticed it on possibly the first pay-roll — of course they were only gotten out once a month. We just called up Tillson. Q. Did he state you had authorized him to engage him? — A. No, sir, he admitted that we had not, he did not make any argument at all on it. Mr. Pyeatt was the man that talked to him; I do not employ the agents, they are employed by Mr. Pyeatt, and of course I have something to do with the discipline and such things as that. Q. Then Mr. Pyeatt asked him to pay the man himself, out of his own salary ? — A. Yes, I think that was the way he put it, that they would ask him to pay that esl- pense. ^ Q. Did he do so?-^A. No. Q. Who paid it? — ^A. The company. Of course it had been paid; that had gone in on the pay rolls; Mr. Pyeatt, I believe, asked him to reimburse the company this sum. Q. And he never did? — A. No. ; Q. What was the result of that? — A. Nothing at all, only Mr. Tillson resigned. He was not asked to resign; I am almost positive he was not asked to resign, that is my tmderstanding. Q. But rather than pay it he resigned? — A. Possibly that was his reason for re- signing, but I understood from someone at Chatham that Tillson had resigned to go into the coal business; I have not seen Tillson since he resigned. Q. Who took his place? — A. Mr. R. W. Youngs, our former agent at St. Thomas. Q. Who was sent out to Chatham? — A. He was transferred from St. Thomas to Chatham. Q. And he is there now ? — A. Yes. I might add Tillson's work had not been satis- 'factory. We had been complaining to him a good deal, in a nice way. Tillson was • well acquainted there, and had a good many friends, and I did not want to remove him. but we wanted him to get along, but he did not have hustle or push about him, that was the only thing. We realized he was well acquainted there and we wanted him to get out and get the business. He was not getting the business. Tillson was not a very aggressdve man, in other words. Q. Was not sufficiently active for your purpose? — A. I liked Tillson personally and we were always good friends, and are yet for anything I know. I have nothing against him, but I am positive Tillson was not asked to resign. He resigned of his own accord. Q. That was all I wanted to put in so as to answer this letter I have received ? — A. I of course did not handle the case myself; this is hearsay. I do not discharge or employ agents. 94 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 1905 Q. The only question was as to you authorizing him to hire this extra man? — A. No, never did, and he didn't contend that at all. You realize that if I had done this when Mr. Pyeatt called him in — I did not call him in — he would have stated 'Mr. Cain told me to do this.' He did not say that. If it had been my mistake I certainly would have owned up and I would not try to throw it off on to somebody else. Adjourned at 11.30 a.m. to 11 a.m. on Tuesday next. May 2nd, at the Court House, Toronto. County Judge's Chambers^ Court House^ Toronto, April 29, 1905. Mr. Kirkpatrick having received a subposna for St. Thomas, which was forwarded to his residence in Toronto, he called to see the Commissioner on Saturday, April 29th, 1905, and the Commissioner thereupon examined him with the understanding that in case the railway company or anyone desired to cross-examine or to re-examine :him, Mr. Kirkpatrick would attend subsequently for that purpose. William A. Kirkpatrick, sworn, examined. By the Commissioner: Q. Tou are a despatcher? — A. Not at present. Q. You were a despatcher on the Pere Marquette? — A. Yes, sir. Q. When did you first become such? — A. Eidgetown. Q. How long ago? — A. Two and a half years. Q. You were under Mr. WooUatt at that time ? — A. Yes. Q. He was the superintendent of the railway? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that before the Pere Marquette bought out the Lake Erie and Detroit Eiver Eailway? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was the chief despatcher above you? — A. Mr. Bailey. Q. Which trick had you?— A. The third trick. Q. What hour ? — A. That was from eleven at night till seven in the morning. Q. You were midnight, then?^A. Yes. Q. What line had you charge of? — A. The whole system. Q. You continued at. that work until you moved to St. Thomas in November or December last? — A. I think it was the first of September. Q. That was before the shop moved down? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Bailey's services were dispensed with after you moved to St. Thomas or before? — A. Afterwards. Q. And Mr. Arnum took his place? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then Mr. Arnum resigned and Mr. Gilhula was appointed? — A. Mr. Arnum did not resign, but Mr. Gilhula was placed in there and Mr. Arnum was put on third trick. Q. After Mr. Gilhula came there were the duties changed in any respect? — A. Well, there was more work put onto the despatcher. Q. In what way could there be more work put on ? — A. Looking for crippled cars and in work that had to be promptly attended to in the ordering of cars Q. Who did that extra work previously? — A. The chief train despatcher or the car despatcher. Q. And that work was taken from them and put upon the trick despatcher, a great deal of the chief despatcher's part of it?— A. Yes. ALlJ:.i\S ON PERE MARQUETTE RAILWAY 95 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36d Q. So that the chief despatcher was not as fully employed after Mr. Gilhula came as he had been previously? — A. No. Q. He had less work to do in fact than Mr. Arnum had when he was chief des- patcher? — A. I believe so. Q. That is what you saw while you were there? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were under Mr. Cain as well as Mr. Gilhula ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Under both of them?— A. Yes. Q. Then you had, been under Mr. Cameron, too? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was Mr. Cameron qualified for that position of train master? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Any complaints made about him at all? — A. Not that I am aware of. Q. Never heard of any complaint? — A. No, sir. Q. Neither from the officials above him nor from the public? — A. No, sir. Q. Nor from those under him ? — A. No, sir. Q. He had been there for a number of years before you ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know whether he gave sati.-ji'aetion to every one he had to do with ? — A. Yes, sirj I am satisfied. Q. Do you know how he came to leave the service ? — A. Being asked to resign. Q. He was asked to resign, by whom ? — A. J. S. Pyeatt, superintendent. Q. Do you remember when that was ? — A. About the 25th of December. Q. W'hat took place at that time ? — A. Nothing in particular. Q. Had he been doing anything that was improper, or was he not carrying out the orders of the superintendent, or why was he asked to resign ? — A. He was asked to resign on account of the superintendent saying that the men should be disciplined more than they previously had been. Q. Had the men been disciplined before that ? — A. I think sufficiently, yes. Q. Did he get work out of them as well as they got out of them after he left ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the real cause of the difficulty ? — A. I believe Mr. Cain was a friend of Mr. Pyeatt, and the intention was to get rid of Mr. Cameron in order to place him. Q. You think it was just for the sake of having a friend appointed in his place ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. They stated in evidence before me that the condition of the power was very bad when Mr. Pyeatt took office ; do you know that ? — A. Yes, sir. They had no shops in St. Thomas at the time, and the shop was at Walkerville where most of the repair- ing was done, besides having had a good deal of power coming from the other side. Q. Were there not sufficient sidings for the moving of the trains and cars ? — A. No, sir. Q. Water ?— A. No, sir. Q. Not sufficient water ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did you know about the falling away of the local business? — A. Yes, sir. Q. To what extent did it fall away ? — A. I could not exactly say, only that agents along the line and every one was complaining; the agents complained of their busi- ness. Q. Was the through business increasing ? — A. I believe so. Q. And that, of course, caused a good deal of trouble ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In consequence of their business increasing and the want of power ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. In What manner was the resignation of Mr. Cameron called for, do you remem- ber — how did it take place ? — A. When he was out on the road attending to his duties, on coming back one evening he found a letter on his desk asking for his resignation. Q. Did you see the letter ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the wording of it ? — A. I could not exactly say, I do not remember exactly, only it asked for his resignation by, I think, January 1st. He thought it necessary on account of the men not being properly disciplined. S6 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION 4-5 EDWARD VII., A. 190& Q. What did Mr. Cameron say, do you remember ? — A. He said 'ae thouglit it was a very mean way of doing when ha was trying to do his duty, and then instead of calling him in and speaking to him and telling him about it, he did it in rather a mean way, he thought. Q. Had you heard Mr. Pyeatt previous to that complaining to Mr. Cameron for not attending to his duties ? — A. No, sir. Q. Did Mr. Cameron say he had been spoken to before that at all ? — A. No, sir. Q. You and Mr. Cameron were intimate ? — A. "Well, not gny more so than any the rest of them, he was always rather intimate with the despatchers and anybody in the office. Q. Necessarily so, I suppose ? — ^A. Yes. Q. Mr. Cameron is away out of the province just now? — A. Yes. Q. Searching for employment ? — A. I believe so. Q. He has been idle since the 1st January up to the present time, so far as you. know ? — A. Yes. Q. Unable to obtain employment ? — A. I believe so, any suitable employment. Q. You were under Mr. Cain ? — A. Yes, sir. Reporter read to Mr. Kirkpatrick Mr. Cain's statement in his evidence given on the 26th April as to the mistake made by Mr. Kirkpatrick, and Mr. Cain's reasons for deciding to dispense with Mr. Kirkpatriek's services. Q. You have heard read what Mr. Cain stated about the mistake? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What do you say with reference to that ? — A. I remember of him calling me in on that occasion quite well, and I think he is wrong in saying that I lied about it. I remember taking my book in there, but I do not remember of saying that that was not the right book, but I think I proved to hira that I was not in the wrong. Q. From your book ? — A. I do not remember whether I showed him the order ia the book or not. ' Q. And' were you wrong at that time? — A. I do not think I was, no. Q. Did he ever speak to you about it subsequently ? — A. Not any more than call- ing me in at that time. Q. That is the only time ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that the reason why you resigned your position? — A. No, not that parti cular reason. Q. What was the reason that caused you to resign? — A. We were not receiving- proper treatment from our officials. Q. Which ones? — A. Mr. Gilhula, especially. Q. In what way did they treat you improperly ? — A. Regarding the delays occuring. he would not reason with me properly, I. do not think; I showed him on two or three occasions where delays could not be helped. Q. You might explain that one you mentioned to me before so that it can btt taken down in the notes ? — A. In that case I gave a freight train, I think at Dresden, an order to meet a north-bound train at Everett, a flag station between Chatham and Dres- den. The north-bound' train, I thinlc, for the reaison of the engine failing at Chatham, was cancelled there and tied up for several hours, and the south-bound train had already- been at Everett waiting for the north-bound train. The north-bound train engine was in such a shape that it could not be run light to Everett, but in order to get the south- bound train out of Everett an order had to be sent to him in some way by train to bring him to Chatham, for the train which he was to meet at Everett. A passenger- train at Chatham instead of Everett. If I had given the order to the engine to carry Everett with an order to bring the south-bound' train in to Chatham he could not have got out of Chatham ahead of the passenger train. I gave the passenger train an order to carry the conductor of the south-bound train at Everett to meet the north-bound train at Chatham instead of Everett. If I had given the order to the engine to carry- out they could not have moved out of Everett before the passenger train, even if th» north-bound train had run out ahead of the passenger train. I presume that this saved ALIENS ON PBRE MARQVElTE RAILWAY 97 SESSIONAL PAPER No. 36cl not only the expense of the trainmen in going out with a light engine to bring in the south-bound train, but also the expense of coal. Mr. Gilhula accused me of a delay ot the south-bound train at Everett on account of not sending that light engine out of Chatham, which if it had' gone to Everett ahead of the passenger train they covild not have moved before the passenger train in the opposite direction. Q. At other times he found fault as well with you? — A. Yes, sir, on different oc- casions, I cannot just state them, but I was not fairly treated, I don't think. Q. Did you tell him so ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he state ? — A. Well, on one occasion at Dresden, I made a meet there , and I forget, but I think I had three or four trains with plenty of side track room, but one of the trains that was there derailed a ear on the belt line, if I remember cor- rectly, and the other trains could not get in, and he accused me of bringing those trains all to Dresden when there was plenty of room for twice the number of cars had not this train derailed a car, which I did not know of until I gave the orders at other stations. He accused me again of bunching up my trains. I explained to him that T did not bunch them up, that the delay was caused by the derailing of a car. That evening I spoke to him, after being relieved for the night, and I told him that I did not think it right to accuse me of that delay. He told me that he did not mean to say anything, that he was simply angry at something else at that time ; but I did not think he should have accused me at the time of the delay, as the other despatchers and opera- tors in the office were there, which did not look very well, when they knew the circum- stances. Q. Was it in consequence of this fault-iinding from time to time by Mr. Gilhula that you resigned? — A. Yes, sir, partly. Q. For any other reason fhen?— A. My intentions were to go west this year, that is if there was nothing else turned up in St. Thomas better than what I had in the office. Q. What salary were you receiving? — A. $80 a month. Q. When was it you left? — A. February 13. Q. You are now with the Canadian Pacific Eailway, I understand? — A. Yes, sir. Q. From your experience with the different railways are you of opinion that they could easily have obtained, or could have obtained, a Canadian to take charge of the despatching there as chief despaleher? — A. Yes, sir. Q. Without much difficulty? — A. I believe so, yes. Q. Provided they paid them a fair salary? — A. Yes, that was the trouble at the time;, when this new chief despatcher came they raised him $20 a month. Q. More than they had been paying the previous chief? — A. Yes, sir. Q. So that Mr. Gilhula is getting $110 and the former chief was only getting $90?— A. Yes, sir. Q. You have already stated that the want of power was what was causing so much difficulty and delay?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they supply power after Mr. Pyeatt took charge?— A. Yes, sir. Q. Sufficient?— A. Yes. Q. And put in sidings ? — A. Yes, sir. Q. As well as supplying water tanks? — A. They are putting in a supply of water tanks now. Q. Do you know whether these were asked for before Mr. Pyeatt came? — A. I believe that the power was. Q. But not obtained ? — A. No, sir. Q. If the old officials were there with this new power and new sidings, could they conduct the business just as well as the present officials are conducting it ? — A. Yes, sir, I believe so. Q. All the old officials previous to the new regime, were they acting in the interests of the railway?- A. Yes, sir. Q. And constantly at work?— A. Yes, sir. . 36c?— 7 . 98 REPORT OF ROTAB OOMMI^t