f i • •I 1 , 1 ■ ! '* f > < •1^ :• "•;,/' I •? «y #*• M:*^'^-fi>^ .*^aF •* f BOUGHT WJTH TH E I N CO M E OF TH E SAGE ENDOWMENT FUND THE GIFT OF Henrg m. Sage 1891 9306 arYl433 '^*""*" ""'""-slty Library ' 'l»BS;te„&;iS|m,.Setec,^^Co.n,»,ee o olm,an? ^^24 032 197 ^T. H\ im ^'^ Cornell University Library The original of this book is in the Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924032197646 R E P R T FROM THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS AND THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, ON THE EAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS: WITH THE PROCBEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE. Ordered, by The House of Commons, to be Printed, 1 August 1891 . LONDON: FEINTED FOR HER MAJESTY'S STATIONERY OFFICE, BY THE HANSARD P UBLISHING UNI ON, LIMITED. And to be purchased, either directly or through any Bookseller, from EYEE AND SPOTTISWOODE, East Harding Street, Fleet Street, K.L^ and 32, Abingdon Street, Westminster, S.W. ; or JOHN MENZIES & Co., 12, Hanover Street, Edinburgh, and 88 and 90, West Nile Street, Glasgow ; or HODGES, FIGGIS, & Co., 104, Gbayton Street, Dublin. E,V. 3P4- f\.3ii,(o3 3(a/ KEPOET - - - - p. V LIST OF PETITIONEES - - p. vi PEOCEEDINGS OF THE COMMITTEE - - p. xii [ iii ] Ordered,-^[Friday, 6th March 1891] : — That all Bills of the present Session to confirm Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade, under " The Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888," containing the Classification of Merchandise Traffic, and the Schedule of Maximum Rates and Charges applicable thereto, be referred to a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons. That a Message be sent to the Lords to communicate this Resolution, and desire their concurrence. Ordered, — [Monday, 16th March 1891] : —That the following Bills be committed to a Select Committee of Five Members, nominated by the Committee of Selection, to be joined with a Committee of Five Lords : — .Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. Great Northern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. Great Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. London and North Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. London and South Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. Midland Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. South Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. That all Petitions in favour of or against the Bills or Orders scheduled thereto presented Five clear days before the meeting of the Committee be referred to the Committee; that the Petitioners praying to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents be heard in favour of or against the Bills, and Counsel heard in support of the Bills. That a Message be sent to the Lords, to acquaint their Lordships that the said Bills have been committed to Five Members of this House, to be joined with a Committee of Five Lords, pursuant to the Resolution of the House relative to Provisional Orders Confirmation (Rates and Charges) Bill of the 6th day of March last, and to_ the Message of the 10th day of March, signifying their concurrence in the said Resolution. [Tuesday, 17th March 1891] : — Message from the Lords,^THAT they have appointed a Committee, consisting of Five Lords, to join with the Committee of the Commons (pursuant to Message of this House), for the consideration of the following Bills, viz. : — Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, Great Northern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, Great Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, London and North Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, London and South Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, Midland Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, South Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, (81.)a . a2 and [ iv ] and the Lords propose that the said Joint Committee do meet in Room A., at Twelve o'clock on Thursday the 9th of April next. Committee nominated of,- Mr. Colman. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson. Mr. Wodehouse. [Wednesday, 18th March 1891] : — That part of the Message from the Lords, of the 17th instant, wherein their Lordships acquaint this House, " That they have appointed a Committee of Five Lords to join with the Committee of the Commons on Railway Rates and Charges Provisional Order Bills (pursuant to the Message of this House) ; and that the Lords propose that the said Joint Committee do meet in Room A., at Twelve o'clock on Thursday the 9th of April next," considered. Ordered, That the Select Committee appointed by this House to join with a Committee of the Lords on Railway Rates and Charges Provisional Order Bills do meet the Lords' Committee in Room A., at Twelve o'clock on Thursday the 9th day of April next, as proposed by their Lordships. Message to the Lords to acquaint them therewith. Ordered,— [Friday, 20th March 1891] :— That Mr. Colman and Sir Henry Selwin- Ibbetson be discharged from further attendance, and appoint in substitution: Sir Joseph Bailey and Mr. Dickson. Ordered,— [Monday, 2Srd March 1891] :— That Three be the Quorum of the Committee. REPORT. THE JOINT SELECT COMMITTEE to whom the following Provisional Order Bills, viz., The London and North Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill; The Great Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill: The Midland Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill; The Great Northern Railway Company (Rate s and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The London and South Western Railway Company (Rates and (Jharges) Provisional Order Bill : The London, Brighton, and Soutlj Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The South Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill; The London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill were referred, have Reported that they have considered the Orders therein contained ; that the said Orders ought to be confirmed ; and have agreed to Report the Bills, with Amendments, to the House. \7 July 1891. («!.)« [ vi J LIST OF PETITIONERS' COUNSEL AND AGENTS AGAINST THE VARIOUS PROVISIONAL ORDERS. AGAINST THE Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charoes) Provi- sional Order Bill. The Petition of Messrs. .\. and J. Colman : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C., and Mr. A. F. Murison appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Wyatt and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of tlie Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' AssocaHtion of the United Kingdom, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A, Beveridge, appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of the Great Eastern Railway Company : Mt. Pemher, Q.C., Mr. Saunders Q.C., and Mr. Moon appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. Edward Moore appears as Agent. The Petition of the Corporation of London '(against alterations): Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Prior Goldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Cor- porations, Chambers of Commerce and Agri- culture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition ot the South Yorkshire Coal- owners' Assurance Society : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C., appears as Counsel in Buppor|; of this Petition. Messrs. Walter Webb and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations and Local Boards in Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C., Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in sup- port of this Petition. Messrs. Sharp and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poultry Dealers' Association : Mr. H, C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. J. W. B, Browne appears as Agent. AGAINST the Great Northern Rail- way Company (Rates and Charges; Pro- visional Order Bill. The Petition of the Great Northern Railway Company : Mr. Pope, Q.C., and Mr. Cripps, Q.c, appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Nelson, Barr, and Nelson appear as Agents. The Petition of the County Council of the County Palatine of Lancaster : Counsel reserved. Messrs. SAertvood and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of Messrs. Brunner. Mond, and Company : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Neish and Howell appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Prior Goldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Cor- porations, Chambers of Commerce and Agri- culture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of the Cilfton Colliery Com- pany (Limited) and the Mapperly Colliery Company (Limited) : Mr. J. D. Fitz Gerald appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Kingsford, Dorman, and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the West Yorkshire Coal- owners' Association : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Bees and Frere appear as Agents. The Petition of the South Yorkshire Coal- owners' Assurance Society : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q c, appears as Coun- sel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Waller Webb and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations and Local Boards in Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. tSharpe and Company appear as Agents. The [ vii ] The Petition of the Derbyshire, Nottingham- shire, and Leicestershire Colliery Owners' Association : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Durnford and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conlerence of Municipal Corporations and other Bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C., Mr. Wnghorn, and Mr. Vales, appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poultry Dealers' A.ssociation : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. J. W. B. Browne appears as Agent. AGAINST THE Great Western Rail- way Company (Rates and Charges) Pro- visional Order Bill. The Petition of the County Council of the County Palatine of Lancaster : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of Messrs. Greaves, Bull, and Lakin : Mr. Darlington appears as Counsel in sup- port of this Petition. Mr. James W. lieid appears as Agent. The Petition of the Swansea and District Freighters' Association : Mr, Shaw appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom and others: Counsel reserved. iVlr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of the Freighters on the Mon- mouthshire Railways : Counsel reserved. Messrs. ^iharpe and Company appear as Agents in support of ihis Petition. The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Fiior Uoldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Landownerf, Traders, and Colliery Owners, and Trading and Colliery Companies, and the Associated Coal Owners of South Wales : Mr. Ram and Mr. Shaw appear as Counsel in support of thi%, Petition. Messrs. W. and H'. M. Bell appear as Agents. The Petition of the Monmouthshire County Council : (81.)a Counsel reserved. Messrs. Dyson and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Cor- poratipns, Chambers of Commerce and Agricul- ture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Glamorgan County Council : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C., and Mr. J. Shaw appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents. The Petition ot the Marquess of Bute and Earl of Dumfries : Mr. Bidder, Q.C., and Mr. fVoodfall appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Grahames and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the South Wales and Mon- mouthshire Freighters' Association : Mr. Woodfall appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. Robert Capper appears as Agent. The Petition of the Great Western Railway Company : Mr. Pemher, Q.C., Mr. Cripps, q.C, and Mr. Moon appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. B. R. Nelson appears as Agent. The Petition of the Corporation of Wolver- hampton, Associations of Traders and Freighters' and Traders representing the South Stafford- shire District : Counsel reserved. Sir Alfred Hickman appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Munici|)al Corporations and Local Boards of Lancashire and Cheshire : iVIr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear a^ Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Ebbw Vale Steel, Iron, and Coal Company (Limited) : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sharpe ond Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporations and other bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q C,-, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. ./. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poultry Dealers' Association : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. J. W. B. Browne appears as Agent, a 4 AGAINST Vlll ] AGAINST THE London and North Western Railway (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. The Petition of the County Council of the County Palatine of Lancaster : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents ill support of this Petition, The Petition of the Swansea and District Freighters' Association : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of William Norwood and James Cross (as Trustees under the Will of John Hutcliinson, deceased): Mr. Stallurd appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Lewin and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom and others: Mr. Poyser appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent. The Petition of the Garston Dock Traffic Association, Freighters, Shippers, Traders, and Manufacturers : Mr. Pembroke Stephens, Q.C., appears as Coimsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Corporation of St . Helen's : Mr. E. Forbea Lanhester appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. G. Prior Goldncy appears as Agent. The Petition of Landowners, Traders, and Colliery Owners, and Trading and Colliery Com- panies, and the Associated Coal Owners of South Wales : Mr. A. J. Ram and Mr. Joseph Show appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. W. and W. M. Bell nppear as Agents. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Cor- porations, Chambers ot Commerce and Agricul- ture, and others: Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c , Mr. Clifford, and Mr. W'AjfeAffirf appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent. The Petition of the West Cumberland Iron- masters' Association : Mr. Pembroke Stephens, Q.C ., appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Har greaves and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Cumberland Coal Associa- tion : Mr. Pembroke Stephens, Q.C. , appears as Counsel in support of tliis Petition. Messrs. Hargreaves and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of Robert Donald Thomson, and Clifton Colliery Company (Limited), and George Edward Checkland : Mr. J. D. FitzGeruld appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Kingsford, Dor man and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the West Yorkshire Coal- owners' Association : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition Messrs. Rees and Frere appear as Agents. The Petition of the Mersey Docks and Har- bour Board: Mr. T. G. Carver appears as Counsel in sup- port of this Petition. Messrs. Rees and Frere appear as Agents. The Petition of the South Wales and Mon- mouthshire Freighters' Association : Mr. Woodfall appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. Robert Capper appears as Agent. 'ihe Petition of the London and North Western Railway Company : Mr. Pope, Q.C, Mr. Littler, C.B., Q.C, and Mr. Moon appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. C. H. Mason appears as Agent. The Petition of the Corporation of Wolver- hampton, Associations of Traders and Freighters, and Traders rejiresenting the South Staffordshire District : Counsel reserved. Sir Alfred Hickman appears as Agent in sup- port of this Petition. The Petition of Traders and Slate Quarry Proprietors and Lessees and Traders of North ' Wales : Mr. Darlington appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. J. H. Cobb appears as Agent. The Petition of the South Yorkshire Coal Owners' Assurance Society : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. WaHer Webb and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of Sarah Tomlinson : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c, and Mr. T. G. Carver appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Rees and Frere appear as Agents. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations of Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, q.c, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Tales appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Saint Helen's and Dis- trict Coal Proprietors' AssociE|^ion (agai.ist alterations) : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Fowler and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The [ ix ] The Petition of' the Railway Carriage and ^^*ggO" Builders' Association : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Martin and Leslie appear as Agents. The Petition of the South Lancashire and Cheshire Coal Association : Mr. Balfour Browne, q.c, Mr. Clifford, and Mr. Darlington appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Freighters and Shippers of Coal : Mr. Balj^ur Browne, Q.c, Mr. Clifford, and Mr. Darlington appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of Messrs. Richard Evans and Company (Limited) : Mr. Pembroke Stephens. Q.C, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents : The Petition of the Garswood Hall Collieries Company (Limited) and others : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sharpe and Compcn^ appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporationss and other bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Ag«nts. The Petition of the National Sea Fisheries Association : Mr. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. M. J. iV. Towse appears as Agent. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poultry Dealers' Association : Mr. Richards appears as Counsel in support of ihis Petition. Mr. J. W. Bray Browne appears as Agent. The Petition of Messrs. Cross, Tetley, and Company : Mr. Castle, Q.C, appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Wyatt and Company appear as Agents. AGAINST THE London and South Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. 'The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom, and others : ' Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the London and South Western Railway Company : Mr. Pember, Q.C, Mr. Noble, and M.V. Acworth appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. , Messrs. Bircham and Company appear as Agents, The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Priur Goldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Corpo- rations, Chambers of Commerce and Agriculture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the North Cornwall Railway Company : Counsel reserved. Messrs. BurcheLland Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations and Local Boards of Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Plymouth, Devonport, and South Western Junction Railway Com- pany: Counsel reserved. Messrs. Bvrchell and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporations, and other bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yares appear a* Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham, Fish, Game, and Poulterers' Association : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in sup- port of this Petition. AGAINST THE LoNDO.v, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. The Petition of the Corporation of Brighton : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, and Mr. Lush Wilson appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Rees and Frere appear as Agents. The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Coaipany : Mr. Saunders, Q.C, and Mr. Freeman appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Dyson and Company appear as Afffents. (81. )a The [ ] The Petitior. -f the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr, G. Prior Goldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Bail way Rates, Municipal Cor- porations, Chambers of Commerce and Agri- culture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations and Local Boards of Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, q.C, Mr. Wughorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Compang appear as Agents. 'I'he Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporations and other bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.c, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company nppear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poulterers' Association : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. AGAINST THE London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Bates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. The Petition of the Chemical Manure Manu- facturing Association of the United Kingdom and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Pry or Goldney appears as Auent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Bailway Bates, Municipal Cor- porations, Chambers of Commerce and Agri- culture, and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Vestry of St. Mary, Newington : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, and Mr. Lush Wilson appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Lowlers and Company appear as Agents. Tlie Petition of the Lancashire County Council and Municipal Corporations and Local Boards of Lancashire and Cheshire : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. ./. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messr-. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company: Counsel reserved. Messrs. Martin and Leslie appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporations and other Bodies : Mr. Balfour Browne, Q.C, Mr. Waghorn, and Mr. J. M. Yates appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. Sharpe and Company appear as Agents. The Petition of the Birmingham Fish, Game, and Poultry Dealers' Association : Mr. H. C. Richards appears as Counsel in support of this Petition. Mr. J. W. B. Browne appears as Agent. AGAINST the Midland Railway Com- pany (Rates and Charqks) Provisional Order Bill. The Petition of the County Council of the County Palatine of Lancaster : Council reserved. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Swansea and District Freighters' Association : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Sherwood and Company appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Chemical Manure .Vlanu- facturers' Association of the United Kingdom and others : Counsel reserved. Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of Messrs. Brunner, Monde, and Company : Counsel reserved. Messrs. Neish and Howell appear as Agents in support of this Petition. The Petition of the Corporation of London (against alterations) : Counsel reserved. Mr. G. Prior Goldney appears as Agent in support of this Petition. The Petition of Landowners, Traders, and Colliery Owners and Trading and (Colliery Com- panies and the Associated Coalowners of South Wales : Mr. Ra7n and Mr. Shaw appear as Counsel in support of this Petition. Messrs. fV. and W. M. Bell appear as Agents. The Petition of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, Municipal Corpo- rations, Chambers of Commerce and Agriculture, and others : Counsel reserved. .Mr. A. Beveridge appears as Agent in support of this Petition, The [ ^i ] The Petition of Robert Donald Thomson, the Clifton Colliery Company, Limited, George Edward Checkland, and the Mapperley Colliery Company, Limited : Mr. J. D. FitzGerostponed. Section 2 (Maximum Conveyance Rates) considered. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Petition of the Mansion House United Association was heard in support of an Amendment in line 4, to insert, after the word " of," the words " locomotive power and." Words inserted. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of an Amendment, to insert, after " Company " the words " and every other expense incidental to such conveyance." ' Mr. Bidder was heard in favour of adding, at the end of the proposed Amendment the words "not hereinafter provided." ' Amendment to proposed Amendment, agreed to. Amendment, ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xiii Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Another Amendment made. Mr. Wills, in support of the Petition of Messrs. Greaves, Bull, and Lakin, against the Great Western Eailway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, proposed the omission of the words " to lime or lias-lime in bulk," in Sub-section (a), and called Mr. Michael Henry Lah%n, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Pem?)er,*on behalf of the railway companies, called Mr. Henry Lambert, who was sworn, and examined. Amendment disagreed to. Mr. Pope was heard in support of an Amendment to add at the end of Sub-section (a) the words " ammoniacal liquor, creosote, coal tar, gas tar, gas, water, or gravel tarred for paving, carried in such a manner as will injure the trucks of the railway companies," and called Mr. George Findlay and Mr. Richard Hooper Tivelvetrees, who were sworn, and examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Mr. Courtenay Boyle were heard on behalf of the Board of Trade. Motion made, and Question proposed, after the second " bulk," to insert the words '' ammoniacal liquor, creosote, coal tar, gas tar, gas water, or gravel tarred for paving, carried in such a manner as will injure the trucks of the railway company." — Question put. That these words be there inserted. — The Committee divided : Contents, 9. Not Content, 1. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Mr. Dickson. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Hunter. Sub-section (6), line 17, Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope, to leave out the words " included in Class A. of this classification, or lime or lias-lime in bulk, or salt in bulk," in order to insert the words " specified in Sub-section A. of this Section" instead thereof. Amendment made. Mr. Clifford was heard, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, in support of an Amendment to leave out all the words, in line 18, after the word " trucks " to the end of the sub-section, in order to insert the following words : " the charge authorised for conveyance shall be reduced by a sum equal to the sum authorised by this schedule for the provision of trucks by the company." Mr. Yates, on behalf of the Lancashire and Cheshire Traders' Conference, was heard in support of the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pojye and Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the railway companies, were heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Clifford was heard in reply. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard on behalf of the Board of Trade. The Committee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed, That it is expedient that the reduction in charge when trucks are provided by the trader, be fixed in the Bill. — Question put. — The Committee divided : Contents, 7. Not Contents, 3. Earl of Belmore. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Wodehouse. Sir Joseph Bailey. i Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Parties informed that the Committee would prefer the principle of a fixed sum, instead of a reference to arbitration, if a clause could be brought up. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a bS Xiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Wednesday, \5th April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Mr. Dickson. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Jofseph Bailey. Section 2 further considered. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Balfour Broiune, on behalf of the Corporation of Brighton, proposed the following Amendment : — " The rates and charges of the company for goods and animals when legally conveyed by the company at owner's risk shall in case of difference between the company and the traders on whose behalf the same are conveyed, be determined by an arbitrator appointed by the Board of Trade." Consideration of Amendment postponed. -Further consideration of Section 2 ]}08tponed. Section 3 considered. Mr. Darlington, on behalf of the Corporation of Leicester, was heard in favour of the Section being struck out, and called Mr. William Arthur Darbishire, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. J. D. Fitzycrald, on behalf of the Corporation of Leicestei', withdrew his Amendment to omit the section. Section further considered. Mr. Murison, on behalf of Messrs. Gohnan, temporarily withdrew his Amendment. Mr. Shavj, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Coal Owners, and Mr. Woodfall, for the Marquess of Bute, were heard in support of an Amendment, to insert, in page 3, line 23, after the word " charge," the words " over and above the rate for conveyance." The Committee refused to insert the Amendment. Mr. Shaw was heard to propose an Amendment in page 3, line 2-5, after the word " duties " to insert the words " and services in respect of such use and accommodation." Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the Marquess of Bute, was heard in support of the proposed Amendment. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard on behalf of the Board of Trade. The Committee decided not to insert the proposed words. Mr. Shaw was heard to propose an Amendment to leave out in line 27 the words " as carriers thereof before or after conveyance," in order to insert the words, " when such accommodation is used by the trader." The Committee decided not to make the proposed Amendment. Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufacturers' Association of the United Kingdom, was heai'd in support of the following Amendment : — In page 3, line 25, after " coal drops " to leave out all the words to the end of the section in order to insert the words " which is especially provided by them for the reception and delivery of merchandise." The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Poyser was also heard in support of the following proviso : — " Provided that, where merchandise is loaded or unloaded elsewhere than in a shed or building of the company, the company may not charge any station terminal in respect thereof. Maximum station terminals shall be charged in accordance with the following scale." Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighters' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment to be added to Section 3 : — " Provided that the company may not charge for the performance of duties undertaken by them for their own convenience or protection, such as signalling, pointsmen, and the cost of working junctions, watching goods, the use of gas and other lighting, and that the complany may not charge a station terminal at the end of a railway where such a railway joins the dock lines of the company's dock, and shipping charges are applicable, or at any point on the company's railway where such railway or any part thereof joins a siding not belonging to ~ the company." Mr. Bidder was heard against the Amendment. Lord ON SAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XV Loi-d BalfoiiT of Burleigh was heard on behalf of the Board of Trade. The Committee refused to insert the Amendments. Mr. Balfour Browne, having proposed to bring up at the end of the consideration of the Bill Amendments which would amount to a new Bill. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided that Mr. Balfour Browne's proposal could not be entertained, but that he must move Amendments to each of the Sections, as the Sections are brought up in the ordinary way. Mr. Balfour Broivne, on behalf of the South Yorkshire and 'Wvac Yorkshire Coal Associa- tions, was heard in support of an Amendment to substitute, ia line 24, the words " exclusive of coal drops," for " inclusive of coal drops," and called Mr. Arthur Marshall Chambers, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to make the proposed Amendment. Mr. Balfour Broiune was heard in support of an Amendment, in line 27, after the word " carriers," to insert the words " by road." Further consideration of the Amendment postponed. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, IQth April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 3 further considered. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Darlington was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 3, line 28, after the word " conveyance," to insert the words " Provided always that the actual sum chargeable as a station teiminal for any particular class of traffic shall not exceed such amount as may be reasonably sufficient, regard being had to the average annual quantity of such traffic, and to the accommodation provided for and actually used by such traffic at the station where such station terminal is charged." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of an Amendment : — In line 6, after " carriers thereof," to insert the words " by rail and by road." The Committee decided not to insert the Amendment. Mr. Woodfall and Mr. Shaw were heard, on behalf of the landowners, traders, and colliery owners of South Wales, and of the Marquess of Bute, in support of the following Amendment, in page 3, line 28, after the word " conveyance," to insert the words, " Provided that the actual sum chargeable as station terminal in respect of such consignment shall be such reasonable sum within the maximum as shall in case of dispute be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade, or by the Railway and Canal Commission, having isfegard to the actual station accommodation reasonably necessary to be provided in each case." Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of the said Amendment. Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the Amendment. The Committee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed. That it is expedient to add a proviso to Section 3, " That in case of dispute the actual sum chargeable as station terminal in respect of each consignment shall be such reasonable sum within the maximum as shall be detennined by an (81. )a b4 arbitrator XVI PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE arbitrator appointed by the Board of Trade " — (Earl of Camper down). — Question put. — The Committee divided : Contents, 6. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Not Contents, 4. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Belmore. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Wodehouse. Parties informed that the Committee were prepared to add the proviso in the form which they had amended it, leaving out the last words, and the proviso would run, " Provided that the actual sum chargeable as station terminal in respect of each consignment shall be such reasonable sum within the maximum as shall in case of dispute be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Section 3 post2wned. Section 2 further considered. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of his Amendment, proposed on behalf of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference of Municipal Corporations, in page 3, line 12, to omit the words " provided that," and insert the words " such maximum rate shall be divided as follows : (1) Maximum tolls (that is to say), the charges for the uses of the line of railway, together with the cost of maintenance and signalling ; (2) Maximum haulage rates (that is to say), the charges for the use of locomotive power, and of brake vans and their equipment, and for marshalling and shunting ; (3) Maximum truck rates (that is to say), the charges for the provision of trucks or waggons for the carriage of the merchandise ; " and called Sir John Hanuood and Mr. Marshall Stevens, who were sworn, and examined. The Committee deliberated. Mr. Pope, for the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. Parties informed that the Committee would insert Sub-sections 1 and 2, but that they would reserve their decision upon Sub-section 3 until they saw how it was proposed to deal with the question at the end of Sub-section (b) of Section 2. Section 2 further postponed. Section 3 further considered. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of another Amendment, to leave out, in page 3, line 25, from the word "provided " to the end of the Section, in order to insert the words " at a station at which merchandise is loaded or unloaded at the request of the trader ;" and re-called Mr. Marshall Stevens who was further examined. The Committee determined not to insert the proposed Amendment. Section 3 further postp>oned. Section 4. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Mansion House United Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, to insert in page 3, line 34, after the word " may " the following words ; " Subject to the proviso hereinafter contained." The said proviso being as follows : — " Provided always that any trader shall, at his option, be entitled to perform the said services, or any one or more of them respectively, or any part thereof, by himself, or his agents, and for that purpose shall have access to the company's stations, subject as hereinafter provided, and shall receive a rebate equal to the amount authorised by this Schedule to be charged by the company in respect of such service or services when the whole of such service or services are performed by the trader, and a reasonable proportion of such amount when such service or services are in part only performed by the trader. " The company may make, and may from time to time revise, bye-laws regulating the access to stations generally, and also (if they think fit) other bye-laws applicable to particular stations, when such access is required by traders for any of the purposes aforesaid, but such bye-laws shall not take effect until approved by the Board of Trade as reasonable and necessary, having regard to the circumstances of each case ; and subject to, or in the absence of, such bye- laws the company shall afford to any trader or his agents every reasonable convenience and facility . in the premises ; and shall not, in the amount of charge made or rebate allowed, or in the time or manner of performing the services aforesaid, or any one or more of them, give any undue preference, priority, or advantage to one trader over another whether such trader is acting for himself, or through his agents, or through the company. " The Board of Trade shall, before sanctioning the said bye-laws originally, or upon any subsequent revision thereof, as hereinbefore provided, hear any persons interested in respect of the same, and shall also give notice to, and at its discretion hear, any of the authorities mentioned in Section 7 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, who, in the judo-ment of the Board, may be locally or otherwise interested in such bye-laws ; and the Board may also before considering the same, in either case impose the condition as to security for costs mentioned ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xvii w'i^r'l^^*^ '^ ^""^C'^f Tf/^ ^j"^ said Section 7, and may charge the reasonable costs incurred by the Board in this behalf, and order the same to be paid by either party or by both parties in such manner and m such proportions as to the Board may seem fit. . v.. ^1'//^ I'^T"" p ^"f ""I T'^f the same bye-laws, or otherwise in relation thereto, shall rovided^" ^''^^^ concerning costs as is lastly herein Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, 17 th April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Section 4> further considered. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Balfour Browne, in support of the Amendment proposed on the previous day, called Mr. Walter Wheeler Berry, and Mr. William Edward Wilson, who were sworn, and examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. Mr. Pope was heard on behalf of the Railway Companies against the proposed Amend- ment. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee would not insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the Marquess of Bute, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 3, line 34, after the words " stores and sheets," to insert the words, " provided that the actual sum chargeable in respect of each of such services shall be such reason- able sum within the maximum as shall, in case of dispute, be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Balfour Browne, for Messrs. J. & J. Colman, and Mr. Ram, on behalf of the Coalowners of South Wales and Monmouthshire, were heard in support of the proposed Amendment. Sir Alfred Hickman, on behalf of the Corporation of Wolverhampton, Associations of Traders and Freighters, and Traders representing the South Staffordshire District, was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pope, for the Railway Companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Ram, and Mr. Woodfall, were heard in reply. The Committee decided not to insert the Amendment. Amendment proposed, by Lord Houghton, in page 3, line 35, to leave out the words " in a separate truck." — Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Section, — put, and agreed to. Amendment proposed, by Mr. Lush Wilson, in page 3, line 36, after the word "merchandise " to insert the words " other than animals." — Question, That those words be there inserted, — put, and negatived. Mr. Ram was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 3, at the end of Section 4, to insert the words " Provided that the company may not charge for the performance of duties incidental to conveyance, and provided that the company may not charge a service terminal at the end of a railway, where such railway, or any part thereof, joins a dock line, and the company's dock and shipping charges are applicable, or at any point on the company's railway, where such railway, or any part thereof, joins a siding not belonging to the company." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Section 4, iuvthev postponed. Section 2 further postponed until after the consideration of Section 6. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a Sviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Tuesday, 21 st April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 5 considered. Mr. Gripps, on behalf of the Railway Companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 3, line 44, after the words, " for the," to insert the words " accommodation and"; and called Mr. John Nohle, Mr. Alfred Barnes (a Member of the House of Commons), Mr. James Satnuel Beale, Mr. Henry Lambert, and Mr. Henry Oakley, who were severally sworn, and examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. Mr. Ram was heard on behalf of the traders of South Wales and Monmouthshire coal- owners against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pember was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee have decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. That they were of opinion that Section 19 should be retrospective, and that in it there should be a reference to arbitration where the charges or payments could not be fixed by agreement. Mr. Ram, on behalf of traders of South Wales and the Monmouthshire coal owners was heard to propose an Amendment in page 3, line 45, to leave out the woi'ds " or for his con- venience." Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Ram, on behalf of the same Petitioners, was heard in support of the insertion of the words " at the instance of either party." Amehdment inserted. On behalf of the West Yorkshire Coal Owners' Association, the following Amendment was proposed by Mr. Rhodes : — In page 4, line 6, after the word " convenience," to add the words " Provided further that the company shall not be entitled to make any charge on coal, cannel culm, coke or cinders, in respect of the services and matters mentioned in Sub-sections (I.), (II.), (III.) or (V.) of this section. Nor shall the company in respect of such articles be entitled to make any charge for the detention of trucks or the use or occupation of any accommodation under Sub-section (IV.) of this section except in respect of any period beyond four working days after written notice from the company of the arrival of such articles at the place to which they are consigned, for which such trucks may be detained or accommoda- tion used or occupied." Mr. Frederick Parker Rhodes, sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Ram was heard for the landowners, traders, &c. of South Wales and Monmouthshire, and for the Marquess of Bute in support of the following Amendment : — In page 4, line 7, to omit Sub-section (1), and to insert instead : " (1) The following services rendered by a company at or in connection with sidings not belonging to the company ; that is to say, loadinc and unloading, covering and uncovering merchandise, which charges shall, in respect of each service, be deemed to include all charges for the provision by the company of labour, machinery, plant, stores, and sheets." The Committee determined not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufactures' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In Page 4, line 7, for Sub-section (1), to substitute " (i.) Services rendered by the company at sidings not belonging to the company : Provided that such charges may not be in excess of or in addition to the respective terminals applicable to ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS). xix to the several services as hereinbefore provided : Provided also that nothing herein contained shall be taken to cancel, modify, or affect any agreement existing at the present time between, any trader and the company in respect of such services." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 22nd April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 5 further considered. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of Messrs. J. and J. Colman, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 4, lines 8 and 9, to leave out the words " and services in respect of the delivery and reception of merchandise to and from such sidings." Mr. Pember, on behalf of the Railway Companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee deliberated. — Question put. That the words proposed to be left out stand ^art of the section. — The Committee divided : Contents, 4. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Belmore. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Wodehouse. Parties informed thereof. Not Contents, 6. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 4, line 9, after Sub-section 7, to insert the words " Provided that the hauling of loaded trucks out of a siding not belonging to the company on to the main line with which such siding is connected, and the return of empty trucks into and upon such siding, and the delivery of loaded trucks into a yard or siding not belonging to the company to which they are consigned, and the hauling out therefrom on to the main line of empty trucks shall not be services in respect of which the company shall be entitled to make any special charge." — After discussion, the Amendment was withdrawn as being special to the London and North Western Railway Company. The Chairman stated that though the Committee was going through the London and North Western Railway Provisional Order, they would only deal now with the Amendments relating to general principles, or would return later to any Amendments relating to* that Company alone. Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the Marquess of Bute, was heard in support of the following Amendment :— In Page 4, line 11, after the words "weighing merchandise" to insert "where not weighed by the consignor or consignee." The Committee declined to insert the proposed Amendment. Sir Alfred Hickman, on behalf of the South Staffordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwick- shire corporate bodies, was heard in support of an Amendment in page 4, line 12, after the words "detention of trucks" to insert the words "beyond forty-eight hours." Mr. Clifford and Mr. Woodfall were heard in support of the proposed Amendment, and called Mr. Frank Impey, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the Railway Companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment: — In page 4, line 18, after the words "delivered at" to insert the words " or posted to." (81.)a c 2 Mr. XX PEOCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee declined to insert the proposed Amendment. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard in support of the following Amendment: — In page 4, line 20, after the word " occupation " to insert the words " Provided that when a trader provides trucks he shall be entitled to deduct from the amount chargeable by the railway company for carriage a reasonable sum for the detention by the railway company of his trucks beyond such period as is reasonably necessary for conveyance ; such sum, in case of difference, to be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Pemher was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. Proposed Amendment amended. Parties informed that the Committee would insert the following words : " Provided that when a trader provides trucks he shall be entitled to a reasonable sum for the detention by the railway company of his trucks beyond a reasonable period." Further consideration of the Amendment postponed. Mr. Waghorn, for the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 3, line 5, to leave out Section 5, and insert in lieu thereof : — " 5. The company may set out in the station rate-book, and subject to their being so set out and to the services being rendered may charge such reasonable amounts as in case of difference shall be determined by the Railway Commissioners in respect of the following matters : — " (a.) Accommodation provided by the company for merchandise remaining on the company's premises or in the company's trucks after hours' due notice has been given to the consignee of the arrival of the merchandise at his destination. " (b.) The collection or delivery of the merchandise at the request of the trader. " (c.) Warehousing, coal-tipping, weighing, and any service incidental to the transport of merchandise before or after conveyance when performed at the request of the trader and not otherwise herein provided for." Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard against the Amendment. Mr. Penober was heard against the Amendment. The Committee decided not to accept the Amendment. Mr. Bishop, for the Glamorgan County Council, and Mr. Woodfall, for the Swansea and District Freighters' Association, proposed the following Amendment : — In page 4, line 20, after " occupation" to insert the words " But the charge for the detention of trucks shall not exceed one penny a ton of the registered carrying capacity of the said trucks a day, and such charge shall only be made after the expiration of twenty-four hours' notice given in writing, which notice shall not expire until such truck has been delivered to the consignee at least two-and-a-half days." The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pemher, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment :^After Sub-section (vi.), to insert the following sub-section : " (vii.) Charges in respect of waterside wharf accommodation provided by the company and special services rendered thereat by the company in respect of loading or unloading into or out of vessels or barges where no special charge is prescribed by any Act of Parliament," and called Mr. George William Stainforth and Mr. Charles John Owen, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne and Mr. Ram were heard against the proposed Amendment. Further consideration of the Amendment adjourned. Mr. Poyser was heard in support of the following Amendment : — " Provided that the charges for such accommodation and services should be set out in the rate books of the company." The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xxi Thursday, 2'6rd April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Canjperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Birley. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. The Committee decided to consider any new section relating to the part of the Bill, including Sections 1 — 6, and relating to Part I., at the end of the consideration of those sections. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the railways, withdrew his proposed Amendment with respect to amplifying the services at or in connection with sidings. Amendment proposed to be inserted after Sub-section (vi.) further considered. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee would insert the proposed Amendment, with Amend- ment as follows : — " (vii.) The provision by the company of accommodation at a waterside wharf, and special services rendered thereat by the company in respect of loading or unloading merchandise into or out of vessels or barges, where no special charge is prescribed by any Act of Parliament. Provided that charges under this sub-section shall for the purposes of Sub-section (3) of Section 33 of the Eailway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, be deemed to be dock charges." Further consideration of Section 5, postponed. Section 6. — Mr. Soutter, on behalf of the Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and Leicestershire Colliery Owners' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : In page 4, to leave out line 29. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Railway Carriage and Waggon Builders' Association, was heard in support of the Amendment. Mr. Shaw, on behalf of the South Wales Coal Owners' Association, and Mr. Woodfall, for the Swansea and District Freighters' Association, was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in favour of the Amendment. Mr. Soutter called Mr. Alfred Barnes (a Member of the House of Commons), who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne called Mr. WilliaTn Frederick Butler, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Bidder, for the Midland Railway Company, called Mr. John Noble, who was sworn, and examined, and Mr. George Findlay who was re-called, and further examined. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard against the Amendment. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard against the alteration. The Committee deliberated. Further consideration postponed until To-morrow. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, 24th April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 6, further considered. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Lord Balfour of Burleigh and Mr. Courtenay Boyle, on behalf of the Board of Trade, were heard on the Amendment proposed on behalf of the Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and Leicestershire Colliery Owners' Association, in lines 29 and 30. Mr. Bidder was heard on behalf of the Midland Railway Company. (81.)a c 3 Mr. xxii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Pemher was heard on behalf of the Great WestSrn Railway Company. Mr. Freeman was heard on behalf of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company. Mr. Boyle was heard on behalf of the South Eastern Railway Company. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee considered that as the circumstances of each railway seemed to be so different, that they were of opinion that the charges for the use of trucks should be omitted from the general provisions, and should be dealt with under the maximum rates and charges of each separate Bill. Section 6 was therefore further postponed. Mr. Carver was heard in support of the following new Section 4a, proposed by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and Sarah Tomlinson : — " Where merchandise is received or delivered by the company at the junction of the railway with a siding or branch railway not belonging to the company, the amount charged to the trader by the company shall not exceed the rate charged by the company in respect of similar traffic when received or delivered at their station nearest to the junction (with a just allowance for any difference in mileage) after deducting therefrom the maximum charge authorised by this Schedule for the accommodation at that station, or a just portion of that maximum charge, to be determined in case of dispute by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade. " And when the rate at which any merchandise is carried would cover any service for which the company may charge any service terminals or may make any special charges, and any of those services have not been performed by the company in connec- tion with that merchandise, the company shall allow to the trader a just rebate in respect of the services not performed, to be determined in case of dispute by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Balfour Browne, for Messrs. J. and J. Colman and Mrs. Tomlinson, was heard in .support of the new Section. Mr. Carver called Mr. Andrew Collins Tud'er Squarey and Mr. Henry Coke, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of Messrs. J. and J. Colman, proposed the following new Sections : — " (7.) The company shall enter in their book of rates and distances, kept at each of their stations, every rate for the time being charged for the carriage of traffic, other than passengers and their luggage, from that station and from any neighbouring siding or other place to any place to which they book, including any rates charged under any special contract, in such a manner as to show separately how much of each rate is for (1) conveyance, (2) use of trucks, (3) station terminals, (4) service terminals, and (5) other expenses, if any, specifying the nature and detail of such expenses. " (8.) The Railway Commissioners may, from time to time, on the application of any person interested, make orders with respect to any particular description of traffic, requiring the company to distinguish in their book of rates and distances kept at each of their stations, how much of each rate (whether such rate be over or under or equal to the maximum rate for conveyance) is for (1) conveyance, (2) the use of trucks, {3) station terminals, (4) service terminals, and (5) other expenses, if any, specifying the nature and detail of such expenses." The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee would not add the new Sections (7) and (8) proposed on behalf of Messrs. Colman. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, applied that *the further consideration of the new Sections proposed on behalf of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and Mrs. Tomlinson, should be postponed until Tuesday. Section 7, agreed to. Section 8, considered. Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufacturers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment :— In page 4, line 43, after " which " to insert the words " either a siding charge or." The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Shaw was heard in support of the following Amendment, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Colliery Owners and of the Marquess of Bute : — In page 4, line 43 to omit the words " in the case of merchandise in respect of which a station terminal is chargeable at each end of the transit ; " In page 4, line 44, to leave out the: words " or in the case of merchandise not so charo-eable ' six miles ;'" '^ In ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xxiu In page 5, line 2, to omit the words " or six miles, respectively," and called Mr. James Weeks Szlumper, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, for the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighters' Association, and the Glamorgan County Council, was heard in support of the following Amendments :— In page 4, line 45, to leave out " six " and insert " four ; " in page 5, line 2, to leave out " six " and insert "four," and after" respectively " to insert : "Provided that where merchandise is received from or delivered to another railway company at a junction between the two companies, the distances ot two and three miles, respectively, shall be taken for the purposes of this Clause instead of three and four miles," and called Mr. Frederic Sillery Bishop, who was sworn, and examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 28th April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Section 8, further considered. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the Amendment, relating to the short distance clause. Mr. Shaw was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee were in favour of a graded short distance clause. Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the Marquess of Bute, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 4, line 44, to omit " three " in order to insert " four." Sir Alfred Hickman was heard in support of the three miles short distance, from siding to station, or from station to siding. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard on the question of short distance clauses. Mr. Bidder, for the railway companies, against the Amendment, re-called Mr. George Findlay, Mr. Henry Lambert, Mr. Henry Oakley, Mr. John Noble, and Mr. George William, Stainforth, who were further examined. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee had decided not to strike out " three miles and six miles " for the purpose of inserting " four miles." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Pembroke Stephens was heard in support of the following Amendments, proposed by the West Cumberland Ironmasters' Associatiop, and the Cumberland Coal Association : — In page 4, line 44, to leave but " each end," and insert " both ends " ; in page 4, line 44, after the word " merchandise," to insert " in respect of which a station terminal is chargeable at one end of the transit four-and-a-half miles, or in the case of merchandise in respect of which no station terminal is " ; in page 4, line 45, to leave out "not so "; in page 4, line 45, to leave out " except as hereinafter specially"; in page 5, line 1, to leave out "provided"; in page 5, line 2, after the words " three miles," to insert the words " four-and-a-half miles." The Committee agreed to insert the proposed Amendments. Mr. Pembroke Stephens, on behalf of the West Cumberland Ironmasters' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 5, line 2, after " respectively," to insert " where under the provisions of this Act merchandise is conveyed partly on the railway and partly on the railway of any other company, the railway and the railway of such other company shall, for the purpose of reckoning such short distance, be considered as one railway." Mr. Woodfall, for the Marquess of Bute, Mr. Shaw, for the Glamorgan Cbunty Council, and Mr. Carver, for the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, were heard in support of the above Amendment. ^ (81.)a _ e4 Miv xxiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, re-called Mr. George Findlay and Mr. Henry Lambert, who were further examined. Proposed Amendment amended as follows :—" Provided that, where merchandise is conveyed by the company, partly on its railway, and partly on the railway of any other company, the railway and the railway of such other company shall, for the purpose of reckoning such short distance, be considered as one railway." The Committee determined to insert the Amendment as amended. Section 9, postponed. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 29th April 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl ot Camperdown. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Castle, on behalf of Messrs. Cross, Tetley & Co., petitioners on matters arising since the commencement of the consideration of the Bill, applied to be allowed to bring up Amendments when the schedule of the London and North Western Railway Company Provisional Order Bill should be considered. The Committee granted the application. Mr. J. Wrench Towse asked that the National Sea Fisheries Protection Association should be permitted to enter an appearance on their petition against the London and North Western Railway Company Provisional Order Bill. The Committee granted the application. National Sea Fisheries Protection Association. Counsel : — Agents : — Messrs. Sherwood. Section 5, further considered, and amended, as follows: "(5.) The company may charge for the services hereunder mentioned or any of them when rendered to a trader at his request or for his convenience a reasonable sum by way of addition to the tonnage rate. Any difference arising' under this section shall be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade at the instance of either party." Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amend- ment, to add at the end of Sub-section (IV.) the words : " Where merchandise is conveyed in trucks not belonging to the company, the trader shall be entitled to recover from the company a reasonable sum by way of demurrage for any detention of his trucks beyond a reasonable period by, or by default of, the company or any other company over whose railway the trucks have been conveyed under a through rate or contract. Any difference arising under this section shall be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade at the instance of either party." The Committee deliberated. An Amendment proposed, in line 4, to leave out "by, or by default of, the company." — Question put. That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Section. — The Committee divided : Contents, 2. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Wodehouse. Not Contents, 6. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Camperdown. Earl of Belmore. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Amendment, ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXV Amendment, as amended, agreed to. Parties informed thereof. New Section, proposed by Mr. Balfour Browne, for Messrs. J. and J. Colman, further considered : — '•Where merchandise is received or delivered by the Company at the junction of the railway with a siding or branch railway not belonging to the Company, the amount charged to the trader by the Company shall not exceed the rate charged by the Company in respect of similar traffic when received or delivered at their station nearest to the junction (with a just allowance for any difference in mileage) after deducting therefrom the maximum charge authorised by this Schedule for the accommodation at that station, or a just portion of that maximum charge, to be determined in case of dispute by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade. "And when the rate at which any merchandise is carried would cover any services for which the Company may charge any service terminals, or may make any special charges, and any of those services have not been performed by the Company in connection with that merchandise, the Company shall allow to the trader a just rebate in respect of the services not performed, to be determined in case of dispute by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Balfour Browne withdrew xhe above new Section in favour of the following new Section, as proposed, in substitution for Draft Section A, proposed on behalf of the Railw^ay Company, by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and Sarah Tomlinson : — " Where merchandise is received or forwarded at or from a siding or branch railway not belonging to the Company the amount charged by the Company to or from such siding or branch railway shall not exceed an amount which is fair, as compared with the rate charged by the Company, for traffic of the same class received at or forwarded from their nearest station at which such traffic is received or forwarded, after making adequate deductions therefrom in respect of the station accommodation, and any services included in that rate which are not used by the trader or performed by the Company for him. " Any trader receiving or forwarding merchandise at or from a siding or branch railway may apply to the Railway Commissioners to hear and determine the question whether the rate charged by the Company is fair, and the Commissioners may on such an application disallow any part of the rate charged." Mr. Pope was heard in support of the following new Section, in substitution of the one proposed on behalf of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board and Sarah Tomlinson : — " Any trader receiving or forwarding merchandise at or from a siding connected with the Company's railway may apply to the Railway Commissioners under Section 27 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1888, to hear and determine the question whether any rate charged by the Company to or from such siding is fair as compared with the rate charged by the Company for similar merchandise received at or forwarded to their nearest station from or to the same place of origin or destination, notwithstanding that such rates or either of them may not exceed the authorised maximum rate for conveyance." Mr. Balfour Browne, Mr. Carver, and Mr. Woodfall were heai-d against the new Section proposed by Mr. Pope. The Committee deliberated. Question, That the new Section proposed on behalf of the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board be read a second time, — put, and negatived. Question, That the new Section proposed by Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, be read a second time, — put, and negatived. Motion made, and Question proposed, That it is expedient to insert provisions in the Bill to remedy the complaint attempted to be dealt with by the Section proposed by Mr. Balfour Browne (Mr. Hunter).— Q,\xe&i\on put.— The Committee divided : Not Contents, 4. Contents, 4. Earl of Camperdown, Duke of Richmond and Gordon Mr. Hanbury. I Earl of Belmore. Mr. Dickson. j Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hunter. 1 Mr. Wodehouse. Whereupon the numbers being equal, it was resolved in the negative. Parties informed thereof. Section 10 : —Mr. Poyser was heard in support of the following Amendment, proposed by the Chemical Manure Manufacturers' Association : — In page 5, line 18, to leave out from " Company" to the end of the Section, in order to insert the words "when such merchandise is specified in Class A. of this Act, or when it is by law or by any regulation of the Board of Trade required to be carried in one truck, the Company may charge as for a reasonable (81.)a d minimum XXvi PROCEEDINGS OP THE JOINT COMMITTEE minimum load, having regard to the nature and classification of the merchandise," and called Mr. Charles Thomas Macadam, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee deliberated. Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Section, — put, and agreed to. Parties informed thereof. [Adjourned till Monday, 11th May, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Moi'day, Wth May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Section 10, amended, and consideration thereof further adjourned. Section 11. Sir Alfred Hickman, on behalf of the South Staffordshire, Worcestershire, and War- wickshire Corporate Bodies Associations of Traders, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 5, line 24, after the word " hundredweight," to insert the words " if exceeding fourteen pounds." Mr. Pemher was heard against the proposed Amendment. Sir Alfred Hickvian was heard in reply. The Committee refused to insert the Amendment. Sections 11-15, considered and postponed. Section 16. Mr. Pemher, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment: — In page .5, line 40, after the word " greenheart," to insert the words "ash, elm, birch " ; and called Mr. Jahco Lir/ht, who was sworn, and examined ; and Mr. George W. Stainforth, Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, Mr. William V. K. Stenning, and Mr. Harold Owen, who were re-called, and further examined. Question, That the word " ash " be there inserted, — put, and agreed to. Question put. That the word " elm " be there inserted. — The Committee divided : Contents, 5. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Camperdown. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Not Contents, 3. Earl of Belmore. Lord Belper. Mr. Hunter. Question put. That the word " birch " be there inserted. — The Committee divided Content, 1. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Not Contents, 7. Earl of Camperdown. Earl of Belmore. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Hunter. Parties informed thereof. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, was heard in support of the following Amendment ;— In page 5, line 89, to leave out the word "when," and to leave out "is," and to insert " shall be," and called Mr. William Adams, Mr. William B. Partridge, and Mr. James Harrison, who were sworn, and examined ; and Mr. William V.K. Stenning and Mr. William Adams, who were further examined. The ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXVU The Committee refused to make the proposed Amendment. Amendments made. Mr. Balfour Broivne, on behalf of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, was heard in support of the following Amendment : —In page 6, line 2, at the end of the Section to add the words " Deals, battens, and boards shall be charged at two and a-half tons to the St. Petersburg standard of 165 cubic feet, except Pensacola or pitch pine deals, which shall be charged at three tons to the same standard." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. i' Section 16, further postponed. Sections 17, 18, 19, considered, and postponed. Section 20, considered. Mr. Pembroke Stephens was heard in support of the following Amendment, proposed by the West Cumberland Ironmasters' Association and the Cumberland Coal Association : — In page 6, line 23, to add, at end of clause, the words " But where such charges are not specifically fixed, they shall be such reasonable sums as shall, in case of difi'erence between the company and the person liable to pay the charge, be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Pember, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Pembroke Stephens was heard in reply. The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Section 20, further postponed. Section 21, considered. » Mr. Balfour Brotvne was heard in support of the following Amendments, proposed by the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates : — In page 6, line 21, to leave out " the "; in page 6, line 27, to leave out " same " ; in page 6, line 27, after " class " to insert " C." ; in page 6, line 27, after "classification" to insert " hei'einaf ter contained in respect of traffic conveyed for any distance not exceeding 150 miles, and Class I. for traffic conveyed for any longer distance, exempted nevertheless from the operation of the two-ton minimum consignment provided by the classification in respect of Class C, and also from the provisions contained in Part VI. of this Schedule in respect of the carriage of small parcels by merchandise train, the minimum weight to be a half -hundredweight, with a minimum charge of 4 d. for any distance up to 100 miles and 6d. above 100 miles"; in page 6, line 27, to leave out from "as" to the end of the section ; and re-called Mr. Frank Impey, who was further examined, and Mr. John Innes Rogers, who was sworn, and examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, \2th May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Section 21. Amendments proposed on behalf of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, further considered. Mr. Balfour Broivne called Mr. Jacob Emerson, who was sworn, and examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard in support of the section. Mr. Gripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment, and re-called Mr. Henry Oakley, who was further examined. The Chairman having asked the witness whether the railway companies would be likely to agree to the rates fixed in the Clearing House scale, with a fair margin added to constitute a maximum, the further consideration of the Amendment was postponed in order that the parties might have the opportunity of considering the suggestion. (81.)a ^ ^ Section XXVIU PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Section 21, further postponed. Section 22. — Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 6, line 31, after the word "merchandise" to insert the words " the maximum rate for the conveyance of which does not include the provision of trucks, and re-called Mr. Henry Laitnbert, who was further examined. Further consideration of Section 22 postponed until after the consideration of Sub-section (b) of Section 2. Section 23.— Mr. Capper, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighters' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 6, Rne 36, to leave out Section 23, in order to substitute the following words : " The maximum charge for conveyance of merchandise traffic over the lines of the company and one or more other railway company or companies, or over two or more lines of the company, shall be calculated at the rate which, according to the scale of the contracting company or line, would be chargeable for the total length of the transit." Mr. Gripp8, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee decided not to insert the Amendment. Section 24, considered, and postponed. Section 25, considered. Mr. Clifford was heard, on behalf of the Mansion House United Association on Railway Rates, in support of the following Amendment : — In page 7, line 9, after " person " to insert " or the agent or servant of any person." \ The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Balfour Browne, on b,ehalf of Sarah Tomlinspn, proposed the following Amendment : — In page 7, line 10, after "merchandise" to insert "or any person entrusted as agent with the duty of sending or receiving merchandise." The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 7, line 16, to leave out the word " Company," in order to insert instead the words " without break of gauge," and called Mr. Frederick Harrison. Mr. Balfour Browne and Mr. Poyser were heard against the proposed Amendment. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard against the Amendment. The Committee decided not to alter the definition of a terminal station, as given in the Provisional Order, but stated that they were prepared to listen to any proposal which might be made on the part of the railway companies with respect to a special section dealing with transhipment. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of Sarah Tomlinson, and the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 7, line 16, after the second " a " to insert the words " branch railway or." The Committee inserted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Balfour Broiune was heard in support of the following Amendment, proposed by the South Yorkshire Coalowners' Assurance Society : — In page 7, line 17, after the word " Company " to insert the words " or any yard or siding owned or rented by the consignor or consignee of merchandise, or towards the cost of constructing or maintaining which the consignor or consignee has contributed or contributes." Mr. Cripps, for the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee decided- not to insert the Amendment. Amendment proposed, in page 7, line 16, after the word " siding " to insert the words " let by or." — Words inserted. Sections 2.5, 26, 27, further considered, and postponed ; and the Committee decided to proceed with the classification first and the rates afterwards. [Adjourned till Thursday next, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Xxix Thursday, I4tk May 1891. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 25, further considered. Resolved, That a definition of the word " siding" be inserted. Further consideration of the section postponed. Section 19 further considered. Resolved, That the section be transposed so as to follow Section o. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment to Section 19 : — In page 6, line 15, to leave out the word "providing," in order to insert in line 16, after the word " accommodation," the words " provided, or to be provided," instead thereof ; and to insert at the end of the section the words " or determined in case of difference by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Balfour Browne was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee decided to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Poyser, for the Chemical Manure Manufacturers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — " Provided also that nothing herein contained shall be taken to cancel or modify any agreement at present existing between any trader and the company, for the provision of such accommodation." The Committee declined to insert the proposed Amendment. Section 19, further postponed. Section 21, further considered. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following amended section : — " In respect of returned empties, if from the same station and consignee to which and to whom they were carried full to the same station and consignor from which and from whom they were carried full, the company may charge the following rates, inclusive of station and service terminals : for any distance not exceeding 25 miles, 4 d. per cwt. ; for any distance exceeding 25 miles, and not exceeding 50 miles, 6 d. per cwt. ; for any distance exceeding 50 miles, but not exceeding 100 miles, 9 d. per cwt. ; for each additional 50 miles or part of 50 miles, 3 d. per cwt. The minimum weight to be 56 lbs., with a minimum charge of 4 d. Provided that in respect of returned empty crates or carboys, the company may charge double the above rates," and re-called Mr. Joseph Loftus Wilkinson, Mr. Charles John Owens, and Mr. Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard against the proposed Amendment, and called Mr. Colhatch Clark and Mr. Marshall Stevens, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Pember was heard in reply. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard on the proposed Amendments. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to accept the first part of the Section proposed by the railway company, that " In respect of returned empties, if from the same station and consignee to which and to whom they were carried full to the same station and consignor from which and from whom they were carried full, the company may charge the following rates, inclusive of station and service terminals." They made a reduction in those charges to the following extent : for any distance not exceeding, 25 miles, 3 d. per cwt. ; for any distance exceeding 25 miles, and not exceeding 50 miles, 4 dr per cwt. ; for any distance exceeding 50 miles, but not exceeding 100 miles, 8 d. per cwt. ; for each additional 50 miles, or part of 50 miles, 3 d. per cwt. The minimum weight to be 56 lbs., with a minimum charge of 3 d. They were not prepared to accept the proviso as it stands ; but in view of the new scale, they should like to hear evidence from the railway companies and traders as to what articles should be treated exceptionally in either the interest of the traders or of the railway companies. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a d 3 PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Friday, 15th May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Eichmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Section 21, further considered. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Bidder was heard in support of the following additional Amendments, which had been agreed to Tjy both sides : — " Provided that (1) returned empty sacks and bags shall not be charged more than half the above rates, with a minimum rate of Ad. ; (2) returned empty carboys or crates (other than glass manufacturers' crates and crates taken to pieces and so packed) may be charged double the above rates." The Committee accepted the Amendment. Parties informed that the Committee desired that the counsel for the railway companies should propose a sub-section dealing with fish empties which would put them in the same position relatively to the Clearing House scale as they were now. Mr. Bidder, in accordance with the decision of the Committee, brought up the following sub-section : — " Returned empty fish packages shall not be charged more than the following scale : for distances not exceeding 50 miles, 4 d. per cwt. ; for distances over 50 miles, and not exceeding 100 miles, o d. per cwt.; for distances over 100 miles, and not exceeding 150 miles, 7 d. per cwt ; for distances over 150 miles, and not exceeding 200 miles, 8 d. per cwt. ; for distances over 200 miles, and not exceeding 250 miles, 9 d. per cwt. ; for distances over 250 miles, and not exceeding 300 miles, 10 d. per cwt. ; for distances over 300 miles, 11 d. per cwt. ; the minimum weight to be 56 lbs., with a minimum charge of 4 d." The Committee agreed to the above Amendments. Section 21, further postponed. Section 25, further considered. Another Amendment proposed in page 7, line 17, to insert the words : — " In respect of merchandise passing to or from such siding." Amendment agreed to. Mr. Bidder was heard in support of the following new section : — " 5b. In respect of merchandise received from or delivered to another railway company having a railway of a diff"erent gauge, the company may make a reasonable charge for any service of transhipment performed by them, the amount of such charge to be determined in case of diifFerence by an arbitrator, to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Darlington and Mr. Balfour Browne were also heard. The Committee decided to insert the section. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard in support of the following new section ; — " The Railway and Canal Commission may from time to time, on the application of any person interested, make orders with respect to traffic received or delivered at any place on any railway other than a station, requiring the railway company to distinguish in the book or books kept at the station nearest to such place, showing the rates charged for that traffic, how much of each rate, whether a through-rate, or otherwise, is for the conveyance of the traffic on the railway or railways respectively, and how much is for other expenses, specifying in detail the nature and amount of such other expenses." Mr. Bidder was heard against the section. The Committee decided not to insert the proposed new section. Mr. Bidder proposed the following additional definition after the words " Act of Parlia- ment," in page 7, line 19:— "The term siding includes branch railways not belonging to a railway company." The Committee inserted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Balfour Broiune, on behalf of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference, was heard in support of the following new section :—" Where the whole of the services covered by the conveyance rate are not rendered by the company, the actual sum chargeable in respect of each consignment shall be such reasonable sum within the maximum as shall, in case of dispute, be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade." Mr. Bidder was heard against the proposed new section. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in reply, and quoted certain evidence given by Mr. Marshall Stevens. Mr. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xxxi Mr. Bidder was heard to I'eply on the evidence. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard on behalf of the Board of Trade. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee declined to insert the proposed new section. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Mansion House United Association, was heard in support of the following new section : — " A trader shall be at liberty to consign his merchandise at owner's risk rates, and in any such case the maximum rates and all other charges authorised by this schedule shall be reduced by a sum equal to per cent.," and called Mr. Alfred H. Lafotie (a Member of the House of Commons), and Mr. Richard Pilkington, who were sworn, and examined. The Committee deliberated. Parties informed that the Committee would not insert the proposed new section. [Adjourned till Tuesday the 26th, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 26th May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Wodehouse. The Committee proceeded to consider the Classification of Merchandise Traffic. The Committee decided to proceed first with the Amendments proposed by the railway companies. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 18, line 2, to leave out " two " in order to insert instead " four," and re-called Mr. George Findlay, Mr. Henry Lambert, Mr. Joseph Loftus Wilkinson, and Mr. Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the traders, was heard against the proposed Amendment, and called Mr. John Henry Lloyd, who affirmed, and was examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to strike out " two " in order to insert " four." [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 27th May 1891. present : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Classification of Merchandise Traffic, further considered. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. On the application of Mr. Fope the Committee decided to postpone all questions relating to the classification of iron until Friday. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 20, column 1, lines 28 and 29, to leave out the words " Litter (moss or peat) hydraulic or steam press packed." and called Mr. Frederick Harrison, Mr. Joseph Wickham, and Mr. Jabez Light, who were sworn, and examined, and re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison, who was further examined. The Committee declined to make the Amendment. Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufacturers, was heard in support of the following Amendment, to insert in page 17, after line 35, the words, " Where merchandise speci- fied in Class A. is consigned in quantities of less than four tons and not less than two tons, the (81,)a. d 4 company XXXll PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE company may charge for such consignment the conveyance rate applicable to Class B., and if less than two tons the conveyance rate applicable to Class C. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, re-called Mr. Henry Lambert and Mr. Henry Oakley, who were further examined. The Committee deliberated. Question put, "That those words be there inserted."- — The Committee divided: Not Content, 1. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Contents, 8. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Parties informed that the Committee had inserted the Amendment as applicable to Class A., but that it was not to be considered as binding them with reference to the other classes. Mr. Littler, on behalf of the South Eastern Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 26, column 1, lines 32, 33, 34, and 35, to leave out " Fruit minimum, 20 cwt. per wagon : apples, gooseberries, pears," and re-called Mr. Jabez Light, who was further examined. The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment as a general Amendment for the whole of the Bills, but were prepared to consider the question when the South Eastern Railway Bill was before them. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, 28th May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. The classification of merchandise traffic further considered. Mr. Cripps, for the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amend- ment : — In page 27, column 2, line 16, to leave out the words, " pigs, dead, for curing purposes," and re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, Mr. Richard H. Ttvelvetrees, and Mr. George Findlay, who were further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to strike out the words " for curing purposes," and to add the words " in carcase, not packed or wrapped, carried in open wagons, at traders' risk." Parties informed thereof. Mr, Gri'ppa, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 28, column 2, line 21, after " timber," to insert " except round timber." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 34, column 1, line 9, to leave out, " Hay, e.o.h.p., minimum load, 30 cwt. per wagon," and called Mr. William Birt, Mr. J. L. Wilkinson, Mr. R. H. Twelvetrees, and Mr. Henry Lambert, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, an behalf of the Traders, against the Amendment, called Mr. Henry H. Gardner, who was sworn, and examined ; and Mr. Walter W. Berry, and Mr. /. L. Wil- kinson, who were further examined. Mr. Cripps was heard in reply. Mr. Henry Oakley was re-called, and further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXxiii Friday, 29th May 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Classification of merchandise traffic, further considered. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Proposed Amendment. — In page 34, column 1, line 9, to leave out " Hay, e.o.h.p., minimum load, 30 cwt. per wagon," further considered. Mr. Henry Oakley and Mr. George W. Stainforth were re-called, and further examined. The Committee deliberated. Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill. — The Committee divided : Contents, 5. i Not Contents, 3. Earl of Camperdown. ; Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Lord Belper. j Earl of Belmore Mr. Hanbury. ! Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Dickson. I Mr. Hunter. j Mr. Gripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 36, column 2, line 27, to leave out " Straw, e.o.h.p., minimum load, 20 cwt. per wagon," and re-called Mr. William Birt, who was further examined. The Committee agreed to transfer straw, together with Algerian fibre, China grass, Esparto grass, Palmetto leaf, flax straw, Megass, and Mexican fibres, from Class II. into Class III. The classification of iron was considered. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 18, column 1, line 38, to leave out from " Iron and steel undamageable, the following articles of iron and steel, if and when delivered by a trader to be undamageable, anchors," down to, and including, on page 20, column 1, line 22, " wire rope, old, cut in pieces," and re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 2nd June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Hunter. Classification of iron, further considered. Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies : — In page 18, column 1, line 39, to leave out " Anchdrs," &c., further considered. Mr. George Findlay, Mr. Frederick Harrison, and Mr. Henry Lambert, were re-called, and further examined. [Adjoui-ned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a XXXIV PROCEEDINGS OF THK JOINT COMMITTEE Wednesday, 3rd June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Classification of iron, further considered. Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies : — In page 18, column 1, line 39, to leave out " Anchors," &c., further proceeded with. Mr. Henry Lambert, was re-called, and further examined ; and Mr. George Henry Turner, was sworn, and examined. Mr. Bidder was heard to suggest, as a compromise, that the following articles should remain in Class B., viz : — Anvils exceeding 10 cwt. in weight each, bars for tin plate making, buoy sinkers, cannon balls, and shot and shell not charged, clippings, shearings, and stampings of sheet iron and tin plates, in compressed bundles, filings, ingot moulds, open sand plates cast), scrap heavy, minimum load four tons per truck, swarf, wire rope, old, cut in pieces, and hat all other articles should be removed to Class C. Sir Alfred Hickman, against the Amendment, called Mr. Benjamin Hinckley (a Member of the House of Commons), who was sworn, and examined, and was heard to address the Committee. Mr. Bishop, on behalf of the Swansea and District Freighters' Association, stated that he did not offer any opposition on the understanding that the railway companies would add to the list iron and steel rails used for railway making. Mr. Pope was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided that before they gave their decision upon the removal of the iron articles in Class B. to Class C, they would hear the evidence and the case for the Amendment proposed in page 22, column 2, line 5, to leave out from " Iron and steel damageable ; all articles included in the undamageable iron or steel list, if not declared by a trader to be undamageable, and the following articles : axle boxes," down to, and including, in column 2, line 40, " Traps, sink and stench." Mr. Pope, in support of the Amendment, re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison and Mr. Henry Lambert, who were further examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to remove all the articles classed under " Iron and steel undamage- able," from Class B. to Class C, with the exception of the articles mentioned by Mr. Bidder, without any restriction on the weight of anvils, but they reserved their decision on the question of bar iron until they had heard further evidence. Question put. That the articles classed under " Iron and steel damageable," in page 22, column 2, line 5, he removed to Class I. — The Committee divided : Not Contents, 2. Earl of Camperdown. Mr. Dickson. Contents, 6. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Belmore. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Amendment proposed in page 20, line 9, column 2, to leave out, " Posts, iron or steel, for wire fencing." Amendment agreed to. ■ds " Post [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Question, That the words " Posts, iron or steel, for wire fencing," be inserted in Class C. — put, and agreed to. ' ON RAILWAY KATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXXV Thursday, 4th June 1 89 1 . PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair, Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Classification of merchandise traffic, further considered. Mr. Moon stated that the following arrangement as to bar iron had been agreed to between the traders and the railway companies ; that bar iron or steel exceeding one hundred-weight per bar in open trucks, at the request of the trader, should be retained in Class B., and that the lighter kinds should be placed in Class C. Mr. Balfour Browne stated that the sfoUowing arrangement had been come to with reference to hardware — " (1.) The following articles to be added to the hardware list : Bed- steads, metallic, in strawed bundles ; fenders, packed in crates, cases, or boxes ; coal-scuttles, metallic, packed in cases or boxes ; ventilators, small, iron or brass, for buildings, packed ; tubes, brass or copper, except steam tubes, packed ; brass-work, spun or stamped, packed ; bit burnishers, packed ; coach fittings, metallic, packed ; harness fittings, metallic, packed ; horse clippers, packed in casks or cases ; sweat scrapers, packed. (2.) The hardware list so amended to be transferred from Class 2 to Class 3. (3.) Hollow-ware, as in Class 2 of the classification, to be transferred to Class 3, with the addition e. o. h. p. (4.) The following entry to be made in Class 2 under ' hollow-ware,' hollow-ware, cast-iron, nested and packed ; " and this is the important matter, I think, so far as we are concerned. " (5.) The London and North Western Railway Company to agree that for hardware and hollow-ware in Class 3, the maximum conveyance rates applicable to the portion of the railway governed by the London and North Western Act of 1846, including all routes from Birmingham and South Stafi"ordshire to Liverpool, shall not exceed the maximum rates authorised by that Act, Class 3 terminals, and whatever limit, with respect to small parcels, is adopted in the Bill to apply." Further consideration postponed. It was also agreed that scrap iron in four ton loads should go into Class B. Scrap iron in three ton loads, into Class C, and scraps in loads under three tons into Class I. Mr. Shaw, on behalf of the South Wales Colliery Owners, was heard in support of an Amendment in page 17, line 16, before the words " Class A." to insert the words " coal and coke for shipment." The Committee refused to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Darlington, on behalf of Messrs. Greaves, Bull, and Lakin, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 17, column 2, after line 20, to insert the words "Lias lime in bulk, lime in bulk, lime (chalk), lias lime e. o. h. p., lime e. o. h. p.," and called Mr. Edward Lyon Lakin and Mr. Henry Josiah Harding, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Bidder, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. Josep)h Loftus Wilkinson and Mr. Jabez Light, who were further examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. Mr. Wills was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to class "chalk lime " and "lias lime " together under the one head " lime " ; to retain "lime e. o. h. p." in Class C, and " lime in bulk" in Class B., and when carried in owners' waggons, the trader to be entitled to a reducti»n. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a e2 XXXvi PHOCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Friday, bth June 1891. PKESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Classification of merchandise traflac, further considered. Mr. Capper, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire freighters, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 17, column 2, after line 25, to insert the words " Pitwood for mining purposes." The Committee decided not to insert the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment in page 17, column 2, after line 26, to insert " salt in bulk," and called Mr. John Major Ellis, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison who was further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided that as to salt in bulk when carried in owners' waggons, the traders should be entitled to a reduction, but that " salt in bulk " should remain in Class B. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railways, was heard in support of the following Amendment, to insert in Class A. " creosote, coal tar, gas tar, and gas water or ammoniacal liquor in owners' table waggons," to omit it in Class B., and to insert in Class C. "creosote, coal tar, gas tar, gas water or ammoniacal liquor, e. o. h. p. ; e. o. h. p. referring to Class I. in owners' waggons," and re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison, who was further examined. Mr. Whitehead, against the proposed Amendment, called Mr. James Mitchell Steele, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Pope stated that it had been agreed that the words " china clay " should be in Class B., and be omitted from Class C, without any words of modification. In support of an Amendment in page 18, column 2, line 33, to insert the words "castings, mill forge, and oth!er rough and heavy unfinished castings, iron or steel," Sir Alfred Hickman was sworn, and examined. Further consideration postponed until the Amendments in Class C. should be considered, Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufacturers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 20, column, 2, line 1, after " manure," to leave out " other than street, stable and farmyard in bulk" and insert " e. o. h. p.," and called Mr. Hermann Voss and Mr. Edward Packard, jnnior, who were sworn, and examined. Ml". Poyser was heard to address the Committee. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 20, column 2, after line 2, to insert the words " Marble in blocks, rough, for building purposes," and called Mr. Sidney Grippe, who was sworn, and examined. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXXvil Tuesday, 9th June 1 89 1 . PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Classification of merchandise traffic, further considered. Mr. Darlington, on behalf of the Traders and Slate Quarry Proprietors of North Wales, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 20, column 2, line 17, after " slate slabs," to leave out the words " in the rough," and re-called Mr. William Arthur Darbiahire, who was further examined. Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the railway companies, re-called Mr. Joseph Loftus Wilkinson, who was further examined. The Committee decided to leave the words "in the rough," as printed, and to add the words, " or roughly squared or planed, not packed." It was also agreed that in Class I., page 28, column 2, line 30, the words " slate slabs, not polished or enamelled, in cases," shall be inserted hereafter, as well as " e.o.h.p.," in Class III., page 42, column 2, line 35. Mr. Whitehead for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 20, column 2, line 14, to leave out the words " in bulk," in order to insert the word " packed," and re-called Mr. John Major Fells, who was further examined. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard to state that the Board of Trade would not object to salt packed in five-ton loads, and in owners' wagons " being added to Class B. Mr. Whitehead withdrew his Amendment in favour of the one suggested by the Board of Trade. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — " When merchandise specified in Class B. is consigned in quantities of less than two tons, the company may charge for such consignment the conveyance rates applicable to Class C." Mr. Bidder, against the Amendment, re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison and Mr. Henry Lambert, who were further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to accept the Amendment, as follows : — " When merchandise specified in Class B. is consigned in quantities of less than four tons, and not les? than two tons, the company may charge for such consignment the conveyance rates applicable to Class C, and if in less than two tons, the conveyance rates applicable to Class 1.," and they would make the same Amendment at the end of Class C. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, in support of the following Amendment, in page 21, column 2, line 9, after "drain pipes glazed," to leave out "e.o.h.p.," called Mr. Benjamin Scott Jones, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Benjamin Scott Jones and Mr. Joseph Loftus Wilkinson were re-called, and further examined. Mr. Pppe, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the Amendment. The Committee decided to omit the words " e. o. h. p." (81.)a e3 Mr. xxxviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, in support of the following Amendment, in page 24, column 1, line 13, after "Timber" to insert ''measui^ement, weight, or called Mr. James Harrison, who was sworn, and examined, Mr. W%lham Stenmng, who was re-called, and further examined, and Mr. Charles Hopton, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, lOth June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Classification of merchandise traffic, further considered. Mr. Whitehead, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the Amend- ment, in page 24, column 2, after line 15, to insert " Wooden boxes for packing tin plates," and called Mr. F. R. Lane, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee inserted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 25, column 1, line 42, to insert " Castings (iron or steel), light, in boxes, crates, cases, casks, or hampers." The Committee inserted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 26, column 1, after line 35, to insert the words " Fruit pulp in casks," and re-called Mr. Walter W. Berry, who was further examined. Mr. Boyle, for the South Eastern Railway Company, re-called Mr. Jabez Light, who was further examined. Tie Committee inserted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, to leave out in page 30, column 1, line 9, the words " iron or." The Committee decided, in page 30, column 1, line 9, to leave out the words " water, except iron or earthenware," and to insert " iron nested or packed." Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 30, column 1, after line 20, to insert the words " Buckets and pails, iron if nested or packed," The Committee accepted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 30, column 2, after line 27, to insert the words " coal scuttles common, iron, or galvanized, if nested or packed." The Committee accepted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 34, column 1, after line 1 5, to insert the words " Hides, green or market, in three-ton lots," and re-called Mr. Alfred Lafone (a Member of the House of Commons), who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 35, column 2, after line 13, to insert the words " Plated goods appertaining to harness or saddlery," and called Mr, Matthew Harvey, who was sworn and examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. ON RAILWAY KATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. XXXIX Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, in support of the following Amendment, in page 36, column 2, after line 35, to insert the words " tanks, and cisterns, iron, such as can be carried in an ordinary waggon," called Mr. Edward Barton, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Committee, was heard in support of the following Amendment in page 40, column 2, line 45, to leave out the words " tin lined," and insert " waterproof," and called Mr. John Leckie, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 42, column 1, after line 42, to insert the words " saddlers' iron- mongery (e. o. h. p.). Packages (not being wholly hardware), containing any articles usually sold by saddlers' ironmongers, set out in any class hereinbefore mentioned, or in this class, and any of 'the following articles, viz.: — belts for men and horses, chain burnishers, cleaning preparations for stable use, cocoa matting, corn measures, sieves, and servers, dung baskets, embrocations for horses, halters, hemp and jute, nosebags, leather and matting, purses and pocket-books, singeing lamps, sporting articles, such as shot flasks, game bags, dog starters and gun cases, web, woollen, cotton or jute, whips, thongs, and lashes, whip sockets, wood clamps for saddlers, braces for wearing apparel (not silk), brooms and brushes, footballs, harness, horse clothing, leggings, saddlery, sponges for horses (not exceeding 3 lbs. in any one consign- ment)," and re-called Mr. John Leckie, who was further examined, and Mr. J. W. Chesterton, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 42, column 2, after line 35, to insert " small arm cartridges, safety, i. e., cartridges not intended to be consumed in the chamber of the gun on firing, and not containing their own means of ignition ; also cartridges not intended to be consumed in the chamber of the gun on firing, but containing their own means of ignition. Packed in wooden boxes, three-quarters of an inch in thickness throughout." Mr. Moon, on behaK of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 45, column 1, line 15, to add to the words "glass in boxes or cases, e. o. h. p." Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, agreed to the proposed Amendment. The Committee inserted the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 34, column 2, after line 26, to insert the words " Manganese, bronz'e and brass castings and ingots," and called Mr. Charles Parsons, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee decided in page 30, column 1, line 19, after the word " phosphor," to insert the words " or Manganese." The Committee refused to insert " white bronze," in Class II. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle stated that the following Amendments had been agreed to. In page 26, line 18, after the words " flax in bales," to leave out " hydraulic or steam press packed," and to insert " minimum, 60 cwt. per waggon." In page 28, lines 24 and 25, to leave out " hydraulic or steam pressed packed, e. o. h. p.," and to insert " minimum, 60 cwt. per waggon." In page 34, column 2, line 16, to leave out " and grey linen steam or hydraulic," In page 36, column 2, after line 16, to insert " linens, grey, unbleached." In page 44, line 36, to insert the word " bleached." The Committee accepted the Amendments. Mr. Moon was heard, on behalf of the railway companies, to propose in page 46, column 2, after line 4, to insert " straw, e.o.h.p." [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a, e 4 xl PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Thursday, 1 1 th June 1 89 1 . PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Classification of merchandise traffic, further considered Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, in support of the proposed Amendment, to insert "straw, e.o.h.p." re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson and Mr. Henry Humphrey Oar- diner, who were further examined. ^ Further consideration of the Amendment postponed. The Committee considered Part IV. of Maximum Rates and Charges. — Exceptional Class. Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 14, paragraph 2, line 6, after the word " articles " to insert the words "other than timber," and called Mr. Charles Hopton, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Moon, for the railway companies, re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. The Committee considered Part V. of Maximum Rates and Charges — " Perishable Mer- chandise by Passenger Trains." Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 14, line 26, to leave out the word " similar," and in order to insert the words " equally efficient." Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amend- ment. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee decided not to accept the Amendment. Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Dealers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 14, line 29, to leave out the words, " and shall not include any obligation to convey perishables by any particular train," and insert instead " perishable merchandise having to pass over more than one or more lines, each company shall arrange to continue the transit at a minimum speed of 30 miles an hour between starting point and destination." Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee decided not to accept the Amendment. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 14, line 30, after the word "train," to insert the words " provided it has been exempted from such obligation by the Board of Trade," and called Mr. George Barham, and Mr. Thomas Nuttall, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided, with regard to milk, that the minimum should be in gallons, and that it should be 12 gallons. Under the above decision of the Committee, Mr. Clifford proposed the following Section 4a, " Where a consignment of milk is less than 12 imperial gallons, the company may charge as for 12 gallons," which was agreed to. Section 5, amended by inserting the words " other than milk," after the words " where a consignment." Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Dealers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 14, section 5, lines 35 and 36, to leave out in each line the word " two," and in order to insert instead the word " one." Mr. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xli Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Richarda, in support of the proposed Amendment, called Mr. Walter Waters, Mr. Richard Langley, Mr. Charles H. Glassey, Mr. Joseph Barber, and Mr. W. J. Bonsor, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amend- ment, and re-called Mr. Joseph Loftus Wilkinson, who was further examined. The Committee directed that all Amendments relating to rates should be handed in not later than Monday next. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, \2ih June 1891. PRESENT: The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Part v., of Maximum Rates and Charges further considered. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, stated that a compromise had been come to with the traders on the following basis : That as regards Divisions II. and III., thej'^ conceded the one cwt. minimum, if, on the other hand, as regards Divisions II. and III., the minimum payment to be received by the railway companies should be one shilling. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the Amendment, that the minimum of half a cwt. should be conceded with a minimum charge of ninepence, and re -called Mr. Thomas Nuttall, who was further examined. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the proposed Amend- ment. The Committee decided to adhere to the limit of one cwt., and not to insert half cwt. Mr. Cripps, in compliance with the decision of the Committee, brought up the following new section : " Where a consignment of perishable merchandise enumerated in Division I., is less than 12 gallons, the company shall be entitled to charge as for 12 gallons, and where a consignment of perishable merchandise comprised in Divisions II. or III., is less than one cwt., the company shall be entitled to charge as for one cwt., with a minimum charge of one shilling," which was agreed to. On the proposed Amendment, Division II., page 15, column 1, line 10, after " mullett," to add the word " red." Mr. Cripps, for the railway companies, agreed to the insertion of the word "red." Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Dealers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 15, column 1, line 11, after " oysters," to insert "native," and called Mr. John Alfred Dextor, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to make the proposed Amendment. Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Dealers' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 15, column 2, lines 11 and 12, to leave out " poultry (dead)," and " rabbits (dead)," and re-called Mr. Charles Henry Glassey, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendments. The classification of straw and paper making materials was further considered. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment : " straw, e. o. h. p., in full truck loads or consignments of 20 cwt. to go into Class 3, straw, e. o. h. p., into Class 4." The Committee accepted the proposed Amendment, and included also Algerian and Mexican fibre and esparto grass, and all paper making materials. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 15, to leave out from line 20, to the bottom of the page, and (81.)« ' f insert xlii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE insert instead, " Rate for conveyance including station and service terminals and including the return of the empty can : For any Distance not exceeding 20 Miles. For any Distance exceeding 20, but not exceeding 50 Miles. For any Distance exceeding 50, but not exceeding 100 Miles. For any Distance exceeding 100 Miles. Per Imperial Gallon. d. 0-75 Per Imperial Gallon. d. 1-00 Per Imperial Gallon. d. 1-25 Per Imperial Gallon. d. 1-50 and re-called Mr. Thomas Nuttall and Mr. George Barham, who were further examined. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment: — To leave out line 30, in order to insert "-40^., 'Yo d., -90 d., l-Od., 1'25 d. ; stational terminal at each end, -50 d. ; loading, '50 d. ; unloading, '25 d.," and to leave out line 35, and to insert " -50 d., '75 d., I'OO d., 1'25 d., 1'50 d. ; loading, '25 d. ; unloading, -25 d.," and re-called Mr. George Barham, who was further examined; and Mr. George Gibbons, Mr. Thomas Picken, and Mr. Francis Hoddinott, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Cripps, on behalf the railways, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — To leave out, in page 15, line 31, in order to insert, — 12. London and North Western Railway Company. Page 15, line 31, omit and insert instead Division I. — Maximum Rates and Charges . Rate for Conveyance. Station Terminal at each End. Service Terminals. Not exceeding 20 Miles. Exceeding 20, not exceeding 50 Miles. Exceeding 50, not exceeding 75 Miles. Exceeding 75, not exceeding 100 Miles. Exceeding 100 Miles. Loading. Unloading. Per gallon.' Per gallon. Per gallon. Per gallon Per gallon. Per can. Per can. Per can. d. •75 d. •90 d. 1-00 d. 1-25 d 1^50 d. 1-50 d. 1.00 d. 1^00 1-00 1 25 1-50 r75 2-00 1-50 2-00 2-00 1 EMPTY CANS. Per can. Per can. Per can. Per can. Per can. cL I'50 d. 2^00 d. 2-25 d. 2-50 ' d. 3^00 d. •50 d. •50 2-00 3-00 3-50 4-00 6^00 1-00 1^00 Page 15, line 35, omit and insert instead and re-called Mr. J. L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, \6th June 1891. The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. PRESENT ; Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Jiord Houghton. Sir Joesph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Part V. (Perishable Merchandise by Passenger Trains.) Classification of Milk, further considered. Mr. ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xliii _ Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the railway companies, withdrew his Amendment, and was heard against any alteration in the schedule, and called Mr. /. L. Wilkinson, who was re-called and further examined. ' Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of his Amendment and called Mr. W. Charles Young, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, called Mr. Richard H. Twelvetreea, who was sworn, and examined, Mr. Frederick Harman and Mr. Charles J. Owens, who were further examined, and Mr. Ebenezer Miles, who was sworn, and examined, and was heard to address the Committee. Mr. Clifford was heard in reply. The Committee deli)3erated. The Committee decided to reduce the total charges, including terminals and empty can charges as they stand in the Board of Trade schedule by 20 per cent. : the charges for terminals and empty cans remaining as in the schedule, and the whole of the reduction falling on the conveyance rate. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendment in Division I., page 15, line 3, before the words " empty cans " to insert " returned." The Committee accepted the Amendment. [Adjourned till To-morrow, atj Half-past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 17 th June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Part v.. Perishable Merchandise by Passenger Trains, further considered. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee, in order to carry out their decision of yesterday with respect to the carriage of milk, decided to leave out the first five columns of line 30, and to insert " '60 d., •60 d., 'Tod., '90 d., I'OO d.," and after column 5, lines 21 to 35, to insert as a new column (For any distance exceeding 150 miles 1-20 d ; per can 3-00 d.). Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 16, to leave out in the first five columns of line 12 (-60 d., -55 d., -40 d., -25 d., -20 d.), and to insert instead " -50 d., -45 d., -35 d., -20 d., •15 d.," and re-called Mr. W. J. Bonsor and Mr. Richard Langley, who were further examined. Mr. Waghorn, on behalf of the Lancashire ana Cheshire Conference, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 16, lines 1 to 15, to leave out the table and insert the following words, " For the carriage of articles included in Divisions II. and III., the company may charge an addition of per centum to the maximum rates for conveyance and the maximum station and service terminals authorised in respect of the carriage of the said articles by goods trains." The Committee refused to consider the Amendment as the figure of per-centage had been left in blank. Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Birmingham and Sheffield Fish Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 16, to leave out Ijne 15, and to insert : — •md. ■17 d. ■12 d. ■10 d. ■07 d. ■2,7 d. ■25 d. ■25 d. and called Mr. John Last Sayer and Mr. Joseph H. Barber, who were sworn and examined, and Mr. Richard Langley, who was re-called, and further examined. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. (81.)a f 2 Mr. xliv PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amendments :■ — Part VI., Small parcels by merchandise trains, in page 16, line 16, after Part VI., to leave out the words " carriage of ; " in page 16, line 17, after " For " to leave out the words " the carriage of;" in page 16, line 19, to leave out the words " in respect of Classes 1 to 5 of the classification," in order to insert the wonls "by this schedule." Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee accepted the proposed Amendments. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of Messrs. J. and J. Colman and the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference, was heard in support of the following Amendments, in page 16, line 17, to leave out the word " three," in order to insert the word " two ; " in line 22, to leave out the words " the following," and to leave out the table in lines 23 to 3S, and to insert instead the words, " the sum of 6 d. in respect of each small parcel," and called Mr. John Wilton, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Yates, for the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference, in support of the Amendment, re-called Mr. Marshall Stevens, who was further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, \8th June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Part VI., Small Parcels by Merchandise Trains. — Amendment proposed, in page 11, line 17, further considered. Mr. Marshall Stevens, was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, called Mr. John J. Rogers and Mr. Daniel Richard Harvest, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Whitehead, for the Brighton Corporation, in support of the following Amendment, in page 16, after Section 1, and before line 39, to insert : " 2. When a small parcel is conveyed by the company, partly on the railway and partly on the railway of any other company, only one addition should be made to the minimum tonnage charge," called Mr. Golbatch Clark,' who was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Bidder was heard against the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead withdrew the Amendment. Mr. Whitehead, for the Brighton Corporation, in support of the following Amendment, in page 16, after Section 1, before line 89, to insert : " Articles comprised in any one class of the classification sent in aggregate quantities, although made up of separate parcels, shall not be deemed to be separate parcels for the purpose of reckoning the amount authorised by Section 1 of this part of this schedule to be added to the maximum tonnage charge," called Mr. Golbatch Clark and Mr. /. James Rogers, who were re-called, and further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Bidder, for the railway companies, was heard in support of the following Amend- ments .-—In line 39, to leave out the word "small," and the words "and no more " in page 16, line 43, which were accepted by the Committee. Another Amendment, in page 17, line 7, proposed by the Brighton Corporation, to leave out the word " the " in order to insert " such," Was agreed to. Mr. Whitehead, for the Brighton Corporation, in support of the following Amendment in page 17, line 12, to insert the words : " Nothing in this part of this schedule shall apply to returned empties or crates of straw," called Mr. Golbatch Clark, who was re-called, and further examined. The ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xlv The Committee accepted the Amendment with the omission of the words " or crates of straw." Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, in support of the following Amendment, to add at the end of the previous Amendment, the words : " or to tea collected in lots of over two hundredweight from bonded warehouses in one town for one consignor to be sent to one consignee, provided that the total consignment of tea exceed two hundredweight," re-called Mr. John J. Rogers, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Part II., Animal Class, considered. Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : To strike out column 2, headed, '' For any distance not exceeding 20 miles," and to amend the heading of column 3 by leaving out the words " exceeding 20, but," and called Mr. . William Frankish, who was sworn, and examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 12, to leave out " any consignment of not more than six oxen, cows, or neat cattle, or than nine calves not exceeding 12 months old, or than 25 sheep, goats, or pigs," in order to insert the words " for any consignment each small truck of oxen, cows, or neat cattle consigned by the same person, such truck containing an inside superficial area of not less than 99 square feet," and called Mr. Richard William, Holden, who was sworn, and examined, and Mr. William Frankish, who was further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, ]9th June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Hunter, on behalf of the Committee, read a scale of maximum rates which he had drawn up for the parties to consider. Mr. Pope, for the railway companies, stated that a case, to be submitted to the law officers of the Crown as to the effect of the Provision^,] Orders upon existing agreements, had been drawn up by the counsel to the parties. The Committee decided that it should be forwarded to the law officers by the Board of Trade. Part II., Maximum Rates and Charges (Animal Class) further considered. Mr. Stephen West was sworn, and examined. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard against the Amendment pro- posed by Mr. Clifford, and re-called Mr. Henry Larnhert, who was further examined. The Committee deliberated. Amendment proposed, in page 12, to leave out paragraphs 5, 6, and 7, in the first column, in order to insert in the fifth paragraph, the words, " For each truck containing any consign- ment by the same person of such number of oxen, cows, neat cattle, calves not exceeding 12 months old, sheep, goats, or pigs, as may reasonably be carried in a truck of 13 feet 6 inches in length, inside measurement; " " For each truck containing any consignment of the same person of such number of oxen, cows, neat cattle, calves not exceeding 12 months old, sheep, goats, or pigs, as may reasonably be carried in a truck of 15 feet 6 inches in length ; " " For each truck containing any consignment of the same person of such number of oxen, cows, neat cattle, calves not exceeding 12 months old, sheep, goats, or pigs, as may reasonably be carried in a (81.)« f 3 truck xlvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE truck of 18 feet in length " — (Mr. Hunter). — Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule. — The Committee divided : Contents, 3. j Not Contents, 6. Earl of Belmore. I Duke of Kichmond and Gordon. Sir Joseph Bailey. [ Earl of Camperdown. Mr. Wodehouse. Lord Belper. i Lord Houghton. I Mr. Hanbury. i Mr. Hunter. Words inserted. Parties informed thereof. Mr. Clifford, in support of his Amendment to reduce the rate of service terminals, re-called Mr, Richard W. Holden, who was further examined. Mr. FemVer, on behalf of the Railway Companies, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison and Sir Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Clifford was heard in reply. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 23rd June 1891. PRESENT : i The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Part VI. (Small Parcels by Merchandise Trains), further considered. Mr. Moon, for the Railway Companies, on Mr. Hunter's proposal, re-called Mr. C. J. Owens, and Mr. R. H. Twelvetrees, who were further examined, and was heard to address the Committee. Mr. Clifford was heard on behalf of the Mansion House Association. Mr. Lush Wilson was heard on behalf of the Brighton Corporation. Mr. Richards was heard on behalf of the Birmingham Poultry Dealers' Association Mr. Waghorn was heard on behalf of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference. Mr. Murison was heard on behalf of Messrs. J. and J. Colman. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided, in page 16, to leave out lines 27 to 38 inclusive, in order to insert " When the maximum tonnage charge does not exceed 20 s., 5 d. ; when the maximum tonnage charge exceeds 20 s., but does not exceed 30 s., 6 d. ; when the maximum tonnage charge exceeds 30 8., but does not exceed 40 s., 7 d. ; when the maximum tonnage charge exceeds 40 s., but does not exceed 50 s., 8 d.. ; when it exceeds 50 s., but does not exceed 60 s., d d.; when it does exceed 60s., but does not exceed 70s., 10 d. ; when it exceeds 70s., but does not exceed 80 s.. Is.; when it exceeds 80 s., but does not exceed 90 s, 1 s. 2 d. ; when it exceeds 90 s., but does not exceed 100s., Is. 4> d. ; and when it is over 100s., 1 s. 6 d." Scale 1, of Part I. of the Maximum Rates and Charges was considered. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. Mr. Pope was heard in support of the following Amendment in the London and North Western Railway Company Provisional Order Bill, to apply to that Order only, viz., in page 8, to leave out Scale 1, in order to insert, in lieu thereof, the following Scale : — " Scale • ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xlvii " Scale 1. Applicable to such portions of the Railway as are mentioned. not hereinafter specially Maximum Rates of Conveyance. Maximum Station Terminal at each end. Per Ton per Mile. Per Ton per Mile. Per Ton. In respect of all merchandised comprised in Class A. of the Classification except f Slack For any distance not exceeding 50 miles. Id. For any distance exceeding 50 miles, (a) id. In respect of Slack id. id. 3 rf. This is proposed at 3 d. on the assumption that J it is not liable to be reduced by arbitration. " {a) Provided always that where any merchandise comprised in Class A. of the classi- fication shall be conveyed by the Company a distance exceeding 50 miles they shall be entitled to charge as for 50 miles at the least." And also to insert in the Bill the agreement entered into between the traders at Garston and the London and North Western Railway Company. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 2Ath June 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Ear] of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Scale I. of Part I. of the Maximum Rates and Charges for the London and North Western Railway Company, further considered. Amendment proposed to the Scales of Maximum Rates and Charges, further considered. In support of his proposed Amendment, Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, re-called Mr. George Findlay and Mr. Frederick Harrison, who were further examined. The Committee deliberated. The Committee refused to insert in the Bill the agreement between the traders at Garston and the London and North Western Railway Company. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, '25th June 1891. present : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Scale I. of Part I. of Maximum Rates and Charges. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Part I. Goods and Minerals in respect of Merchandise comprised in Class A. In support of the Amendment, proposed by the London and North Western Railway Company, Mr. Pope (81.)a f 4 re-called xlviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE re-ealled Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined ; and Mr. Abraham Burroughs, Mr. William Edward Johnson (a Member of the House of Commons), Mr. Benjamin Biram, -and Mr. George Robert Carter, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the South Yorkshire Coal Owners Assurance Society, the West Yorkshire Coal Owners Association, and the Glamorgan County Council, was heard against the proposed Amendment by the London and North Western Railway Company, and in favour of the Schedule in the Provisional Order, and re-called Mr. Frederick Parker Rhodes, who was further examined. Mr. J. D. FitzGerald, on behalf of the Petition of R. T. Thompson, the Clifton Colliery Company, and G. E. Checkland, was heard to propose, in page 8, Scale I., to leave out all the words under the heading " Maximum Rates for Conveyance," and to insert instead " For any consignment for any distance not exceeding 40 miles, "65 d. per ton per mile, and for any distance exceeding 40 miles, '50 rf. per ton per mile, and called Mr. George E. Checkland, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighters, against the Amendment proposed by the London and North Western Railway Company, called Mr. Edwin Grove, who was sworn, and examined. Sir Alfred Hipkman was heard against the proposed Amendment. Mr. Richards, on behalf of the Corporation of the City of London, was heard against the proposed Amendment, and in favour of the Schedule of the Board of Trade. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Pope was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided not to accept the Amendment as proposed by Mr. Pope on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Friday, 26th June 1891 PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Camperdown. Mr. Dickson. Lord Belper. ; Mr. Hanbury. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hunter. Sir Joseph Bailey | Mr. Wodehouse. Scale I. of Part I., Maximum Rates and Charges (Goods and Minerals) further considered. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the Great Western Railway Company, was heard to propose to leave out the first ten columns of the Table, and re-called Mr. Henry Lambert and Sir Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Acworth, for the Midland Railway Company, called Mr. Josejjh Shaw, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, was heard against the proposed Amendment, and re-called Mr. William Douglas Phillips, Dr. David Basil Hewitt, Mr. Parker Rhodes, Mr. Arthur Marshall Chambers, and Mr. Edwin Grove, who were further examined. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard to state that under the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1888, the Committee had power to alter the figures and details, but not the form. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee decided not to entertain the objection raised by Sir Alfred Hickman. Sir Alfred Hickman was further heard. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard against the Amendment, and to propose, in page 8 line 12 to leave out "250," and to insert "200" ; and in page 8, lines 14 and 15, to leave out "to one consignee. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Pember, for the railway companies, was further heard. The ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. xlix The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to strike out the top of the lirst paragraph, " For a consignment of not less than 250 tons, tendered for delivery to the company, at one time for delivery at one time and place to one consignee," as well as the words at the top of the next paragraph, " For a consignment less than 250 tons, but not less than 10 tons, tendered for delivery to the company at one time, for delivery at one time and place to one consignee," and the ten columns under those headings. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 30th June 1891, PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Scale I. of Part I. of Maximum Rates and Charges (Goods and Minerals in respect of Merchandise comprised in Class A.), further considered. Lines 1 to 8, inclusive, on page 8, postponed. Mr. Gripps re-called Mr. Henry Lambert and Sir Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Bidder was heard, on behalf of the Midland Railway Company, to propose that the rates should be on a cumulative instead of a graduated scale according to distance. Mr. Clifford was heard against the Amendment. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided that the principle which ought to be adopted should be cumulative. Section 9 of the Schedule of Maximum Rates and Charges considered and struck out. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference was heard to propose that the rates should be equal mileage rates and not on a cumulative scale; and re-called Mr. Marshall Stevens, who was further examined. Mr. Bidder re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Pember re-called Mr. Frederick Harrison, who was fui'ther examined. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in reply. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to adhere to the cumulative principle and not to accept the Amendment which had been put in by the Lancashire and Cheshire Conference. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, 1st July 1891. present : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. . Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Scale I. of Part I. of Maxin/um Rates and Charges (Goods and Minerals in respect of Merchandise comprised in Class A.), further considered. (8L)a ' g ^ii-. 1 PROCEEDINGS OF THE J01>fT COMMITTEE Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment in lieu of the rates in the Provisional Order (Scale l)]in order to carry out the decision of the Committee, that rates should be cumulative and not graduated, viz : — " Scale 1. — Applicable to such portions of the Railway as are not hereinafter specially mentioned. For the first 20 Miles or any part of such Distance. For the next .30 Miles or any part of such Distance. For the next 50 Miles or any part of such Distance. For the remainder of the Distance. Station Terminal. d. 1 d. ■90 d. -.50 d. •40 d. 3*" * This is proposed at 3 d. on the assumption that it is not liable to be reduced by arbitration ; if subject to arbiJ tration the sum of 6 d. should be substituted as the proposed maximum station terminal. and re-called, Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Pember was heard on behalf of the Great Western Railway Company, and called Mr, Henry Lambert. The Chairman stated that the Committee would deal with each case upon its own merits. Mr. Po2^e, for the London and North Western Railway Company, re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard against the Amendment. Mr. Frederick Parker Rhodes, on behalf of the Yorkshire CoalownerS, was heard against the proposal, and was examined. Mr. Pope was heard to address the Committee. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the scale proposed by Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, be agreed to— (The Duke of Richmond and, (rorrfoTC).— Question put. — The Committee divided : Contents, 3, Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Belmore. Mr. Wodehouse. Not Contents, 5. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Motion made, and. Question proposed. That the following Scale be agreed to ; For the first 20 Miles or any part of such Distance. d. •95 For the next 30 Miles or any part of such Distance. •85 For the next 50 Miles or any part of such Distance. For the remainder of the Distance. d. •50 d. •40 Station Terminal at each end not subject to Arbitration. d. 3 Question put, and agreed to. ,. ,. ^^^fll ^"r^°^™^f^ that the Committee had decided to accept the four distances proposed on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, with the following alteration as to rates, viz. : For the first 20 miles, or any part of such distance, ^95 d. ■ for the next 30 miles, or ON RAILWAY RATES AKD CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. "li or any part of such distance, -85 d. ; for the next 50 miles, or any part of such distance, "50 d. ; for the remainder of the distance '40 d., and a station terminal at each end of 3 d., and not subject to arbitration. Scale 2 of Part I. of Maximum Rates and Charges, considered. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment : In page 9, between lines 20 and 21, to insert the words, " Swansea Lines (Pontardulais to Swansea and branches, including Penclawdd Extension)," and re-called Mr, George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Shaw, against the proposed Amendment, called Colonel John Roper Wright, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the Amendment, re-called Mr. Henry Lambert, who was further examined. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee refused to insert the " Swansea Lines." Mr. Pope was heard in support of the following Amendment, in page 9, after line 28, to insert the words, " Ashbourne and Buxton Railway ; " and re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. /. D. FitzGerald, for the Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire, and Leicestershire Colliery Owners' Association, was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee decided to insert the Ashbourne and Buxton Railway between lines 28 and 29. The Committee decided to leave out lines 35 to 37 inclusive, in page 9. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle, on behalf of the Board of Trade, handed in the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown with respect to the effect of the proposed legislation upon agreements entered into by the company with traders upon their railway. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, 2nd July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Scale 2 of Part I., Maximum Rates and Charges, further considered. Mr. Woodfall, for the Marquis of Bute and the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighters' Association, was heard in support of the following Amendment : In page 9, to leave out lines 13, 14, 15, 17, and 18, and called Mr. William George Dowden and Mr. George Parry, who were sworn, and examined. Mr. Moon, for the London and North Western Railway Company, against the said Amendment, re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. The Committee decided not to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. /. D. FitzGerald, was heard in support of the following Amendment proposed pn behalf ' of R. T. Thompson, the Clifton Colliery Company, and G. E. Checkland, in page 9, lines 24 and 25, to leave out the words " South Leicestershire, Nuneaton to Wigston," and re-called Mr. George Edward Gheckland, who was further examined. Mr. Moon, for the London and North Western Railway Company, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. /. D. FitzGerald was hejard in reply. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was l^rfeard. The Commiitee refused t9' Accept the proposed Amendment. (81.)a g 2 Mr. Hi PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Pembroke Stephens, on behalf of the West Cumberland Ironmasters' Association, was. heard in support of the following Amendment, to leave out in page 9, lines 21, 22, and 23, the words " Whitehaven Junction, Whitehaven to Maryport, Cockermouth, and Worthington," and called Mr. John Crum, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Moon, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. " Mr. Darlington, on behalf of the traders and Slate Quarry Proprietors and lessees and traders of North Wales, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 9, to leave out lines 20, 29, 30, and 33, viz., the words " Carnarvon to Llanberis, Carnarvon Junction to Af onwen Junction Railway, NantUe Branch Railway, and Chester and Holyhead " ; and re-called Mr. William Arthur Darbishire, who was further examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. The Committee inserted the Sirhowy Railway in Scale 2. Mt. Ben Day for the West Yorkshire Coalowners' Association and South Yorkshire Coal- owners' Assurance Society, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 8„ line 4, after the word " mile " to insert the words " and where merchandise is conveyed partly on the railway and partly on the railway of any other railway company, the railway and the railway of such other company shall be considered as one railway." Further consideration adjourned. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, Zrd July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. The Amendment proposed by Mr. Ben Day further considered. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support thereof. Mr. Pope was heard against the Amendment. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. The Committee stated the terms in which they propose to carry out their decision as ta Section 2, viz., in Sub-section {a) to leave out "lime, lias lime in bulk, or salt in bulk " and after Sub-section {a) to insert a new Sub-section, viz. : " The company shall not be under any obligation to provide trucks for merchandise specified in Sub-section (a) of this section or for lime in bulk, or salt in bulk." ' Further consideration adjourned. Part I. of Maximum Rates and Charges in respect of Class B. considered. Page 10 considered, and ordered to be struck out. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard to state that the figures in page 11, applicable to Class B., altered so as to be on the cumulative scale, will be ; 1-25 d., 1-0 d., O-So'cZ. 0*50 d. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, was heard in support of his Amendment in Scale B., to substitute for the first 23 miles the initial figure 1-50 d., 1-0 d., -.50 d., station terminal at each end 9 d., instead of the initial figure of 1-25 d prepared by the Board of Trade; and re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard against the proposed Amendment, and re-called Mr Marshall Stevens, Mr. Walter Wheeler Berry, and Mr. Frank Impey, who were further examined. Sir ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. liii Sir Alfred Hickman was heard against the Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope. Mr. Pope was heard in reply. The Committee deliberated. [Adjourned till Tuesday next, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Tuesday, 7th July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Maximum Rates and Charges, Part I. (Rates and Terminals in respect of Merchandise comprised in Classes B, C, 1, 2, 3, 4, and -5), for the London and North Western Railway Company, further considered. Further consideration of rates for Class B, postponed. The question of station terminals was considered. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, was heard to propose that terminals should be a fixed sum and not subject to arbitration; and re-called Mr. Henry Lambert and Sir Henry Oakley, who were further examined. Mr. Saunders, for the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway Company, called Mr. George William Stainforth, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Littler, for the South Eastern Railway Company, re-called Mr. Jabez Light, who was further examined. Mr. Pember, for the London and South Western Railway Company, called Mr. Charles John Owens, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, for the Corporation of Brighton, upon Classes 1 — 5, against the Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope, re-called Mr. Golbach Clarke, who was further examined. Further consideration adjourned. Mr. Balfour Browne handed in Section 2, as amended, and agreed to between the parties and the Board of Trade, as follows : — " Suggested Amendment of Section 2 of Provisional Order (Rates and Charges). " 2. The maximum rate for conveyance is the maximum rate which the company may charge for the conveyance of merchandise by merchandise train, and subject to the exceptions and provisions specified in this schedule, includes the provision of locomotive power and trucks by the company, and every other expense incidental to such conveyance not otherwise herein provided for. Provided that — " (a.) The provision of trucks is not included in the maximum rates applicable to merchandise specified in Class A. of the Classification, and the company shall not be required to provide trucks for the conveyance of such merchandise, or for the conveyance of lime in bulk or salt in bulk, or of the following articles when carried in such a manner as to injure the trucks of the company ; that is to say, ammoniacal liquor, creosote, coal tar, gas tar, gas water, or gravel tarred for paving. "(b.) Where for the conveyance of merchandise, other than merchandise specified in Class A. of the Classification, the company do not provide trucks, the rate authorised for conveyance shall be reduced by a sum which for distances not exceeding 50 miles, shall in case of diff"erence between the company and the person liable to pay the charge, be determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Board of Trade, and for distances exceeding 50 miles, shall be the charge authorised to be made by the company for the provision of trucks when not included in the maximum rate for conveyance." Further consideration adjourned. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)a g 3 liv PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Wednesday, 8tk July 1 89 1 . PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbuiy. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Section 2, as amended, further considered, and inserted in the Bill. Part I., Maximum Rates and Charges (b.), Rates and Terminals in respect of Merchandise, comprised in Classes B, C, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, further considered. Amendment proposed by Mr. Pope, that terminals should be a fixed sum, and not subject to arbitration, further considered. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard against the Amendment ; and re-called Mr. William Edward Willson and Mr. Walter Wheeler Berry, who were further examined ; and Mr. W. J. Clark, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Corporation of Brighton, was heard to address the Committee in favour of terminals being subject to arbitration. Mr. Richards was heard on behalf of the Corporation of London. Mr. Darlington, on behalf of the Traders and Slate Quarry Proprietors and Lessees and Traders of North Wales, was heard with regard to Class B., against the Amendment of the London and North Western Railway Company, and re-called Mr. William Arthur Darbishire, who was further examined. Mr. Pope was heard in reply. Mr. PeTnber was heard on behalf of the Great Western Railway Company and of the London and South Western Railway Company. Mr. Saunders was heard on behalf of the London, Brighton and South Coast Railway Company. Mr. Boyle was heard on behalf of the South Eastern Railway Company. Mr. Lush Wilson was heard on behalf of the Corporation of Brighton. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. The Committee decided to adhere to the Board of Trade figures in the conveyance r&,te, and to refuse those proposed by the London and North Western Railway Company in Class b! That the station terminals should remain a fixed charge as in the Provisional Order, for all classes and in the case of all companies. They struck out the addition provisionally made to Section 3, and the words, "not subject to arbitration," in the heading in the scale of the London and North Western Railway Company. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle handed in the Board of Trade interpretation of the Great Western scale made for Class B. Great Western. B. Scale 2. — Rate per Ton per Mile. First 20. Next 30. Next 50. Remainder d. 1-60 d. 1-20 d. 0-80 d. 0-50 [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. ON BAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Thursday, 9th July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chaii. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanburyi Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the railway companies, was heard to state that the companies withdrew their opposition to the service terminals in the Provisional Orders. Sir Alfred Hickman, for the traders and freighters in Staffordshire, Worcestershire, and Warwickshire, Mr. Clifford, for the Mansion House Association, and Mr. Lush Wilson, for the Corporation of Brighton, withdrew their Amendments. The Committee decided to adhere to the service terminals in all Classes in all the Provisional Orders. Mr. Pope was also heard to state that the Northern Railway Companies withdrew any objections to the conveyance rates for Classes C, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, provided that the cumulative rates decided on by the Committee are the fair equivalent of those in the Normanton Scale. The following Table was put in for the Board of Trade as being an equivalent in cumulative form of the graduated conveyance rates in the London and North Western Railway Provisional Order, viz. : — Board of Trade Cumulative Scale. Class. For first 20 Miles. The next 30 Miles. The next .50 Miles. Remainder of Distance. Class. d. d d. d. C. - 1-80 1-50 1-20 0-70 C. 1 2-20 1-85 .1-40 0-90 1 2 2-65 2-30 1-70 1-3.5 2 3 3-10 2-65 . 1-75 1-65 3 4 3-60 315 2-20 1-80 4 5 4-30 3-70 3-25 2-30 5 The following Table was put in by the Railway Companies as being the equivalent of the Normanton Scale, viz. : — For , For the For the For the the remainder Class. of the Class. First 20 Miles. next 30 Miles. next 50 Miles. Distance beyond 100 Miles. Per Ton per Mile. Per Ton per Mile. Per Ton per Mile. Per Ton per Mile. d. d. d. d. C. 2-40 1-30 1-10 ■90 C. 1 2-80 1-70 1-60 1-20 1 2 3-00 2-50 1.-80 1-70 2 3 3-30 2-80 2-40 2-20 3 4 3-90 3-40 3-00 2-60 4 5 4-50 4-00 3-30 2-75 5 (81.)« g4 Mr. Ivi PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Gripps, in support of the above Table, re-called Mr. Henry Lambert, Sir Henry Oakley, and Mr. George Findlay, who were further examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the traders, was heard to propose the following scale, in opposition to those proposed on behalf of the Board of Trade and of the railway com- panies : — Maximum Rates foe Conveyance. Class. For the first 20 Miles, or any part For the next 30 Miles, or any part For the next 50 Miles, or any part For the remainder of the Distance beyond 100 Miles. Class. of such Distance. of such Distance. of such Distance. d. d. d. d. c. n n 1 1 C. 1 If li • n 1 1 2 2 If u li 2 3 H 2 If li 3 4 3 2J . H 2 4 5 ^ 3 n 2i 5 and re-called Mr. William Edward Willson, who was further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Friday, lOth July 1891. PRESENT The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. The Maximum Rates for Conveyance for Classes C, 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5, further considered. Mr. Clifford, in support of the Amehdment proposed by Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Traders, re-called Mr. Frank Impey, who was further examined. Mr. Pope was heard on behalf of the Railway Companies against the Amendment, and in support of the scale proposed by them. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the Conveyance Rates for Class C. fixed in the Provisional Order (as amended to be cumulative, instead of graduated) be adhered to by the Committee — (Mr. Hunter).— (Question put. — The Committee divided : Contents, 5. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Parties informed thereof. Not Contents, 3. Duke of Richmond and Gordon Lord Belper, Sir Joseph Bailey. The consideration of the Conveyance Rates for Classes 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 was postx^oned. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard in support of the following Amendment -—To add at the end of the Table on pages 10 and 11 of the London and North Western Railway Provisional Order, the following words :— " Provided that the Rates and Charges to be made on the parts of ^r^% ""^^Z^l governed by the London and North Western Railway Amalgamation Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict c. cciv.), and the Stour Valley Railway Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. cccxxviii.), shall not exceed the Rates and Charges authorised by those Acts respectively." Sir ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Ivii Sir Alfred Hickman, h&ving finished his speech, was cross-examined by Mr. Moon, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company. Sir Alfred Hickman was re-called, and further examined Mr. Clifford was heard to propose, at the end of the Table, on pages 10 and 11, to insert, " Provided, that the Maximum Rates for conveyance for iron and steel articles in Classes B. and C. of the Classification shall not exceed, upon that portion of the Company's Railway governed by the London and North Western Act of 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 204), including all routes from Birmingham and South Staffordshire to Liverpool, the Rates by the said Act provided for undamageable iron, viz. : — For distances under 50 miles, 1^ d. per ton per mile, and for distances exceeding 50 miles, 1 d. per ton per mile." After discussion, an agreement was arrived at which was accepted by the Committee, viz. : " Provided, that the Maximum Rates for conveyance for iron and steel articles in Classes B. and C. of the Classification shall not exceed, upon the portions of the railway respectively governed by the London and North Western Railway Amalgamation Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict, c. 204), and the Stour Valley Railway Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 328), the Rates by those Acts respectively authorised." Mr. Woodfall was heard to propose that the concession made to the South Staffordshire Traders should apply to the South Wales Railway. No notice of this Amendment having been given, the Committee refused to extend the proviso. On Class B., Scale 2, Mr. Moon was heard on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, in su^pport of the following Amendment, to add on pages 10 and 11 : — " Applicable to the Railways herein specially mentioned. Chester and Holyhead - Bangor and Bethesda Bettws and Festiniog Bettws Extension - Dyffws Junction Bangor and Carnarvon Carnarvonshire . - - Carnarvon and Llanberis NantUe Branch - - - Whitehaven Junction Whitehaven to Maryport Cockermouth and Workington Maximum Rate Per Ton Per Mile. 2d. l^d. Station Terminal at each End. 6d. 6d. Provided always, that with regard to Merchandise in Class B. conveyed upon the Whitehaven Junction or Cockermouth and Workington Railways, or any portion thereof for which the company do not provide waggons, the maximum rate for conveyance before mentioned shall be reduced by the sum of ^ d. per ton per mile"; and re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Darlington, on behalf of the Traders and Slate Quarry Proprietors and Lessees and Traders of North Wales, against the proposed Amendment, re-called Mr. William Arthur Harbishire, who was further examined. Mr. Gourtenay Boyle was heard. [Adjourned till Monday next, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Monday, I3th July 1891. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. The Amendment proposed on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, in Class B., Scale 2, was further considered. (81.)a ^ Mr. Iviii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Mr. Pojpe was heard in reply. The Committee accepted the Amendment, with Amendments, as followeth : Class B., Scale 2. — Applicable to the Railways herein specially mentioned. Maximum Bate "per Ton per Mile. Station Terminal. Chester and Holyhead 1-75 d. for first 20 miles, and 1'25 d. for the remainder of the distance- &d. Bangor and Bethesda - - - Bettws and Festiniog Bettws Extension - - - Dyffws Junction Bangor and Carnarvon Carnarvonshire Carnarvon and Llanberis Nantlle Branch - . _ . - 1-75 d. Qd. Whitehaven Junction Whitehaven to Maryport Cockermouth and Workington - 1-50 d. 6d. Provided always, that with regard to merchandise in Class B. conveyed upon the White- haven Junction or Cockermouth and Workington Railways, or any portion thereof for which the Company do not provide waggons, the maximum rate for conveyance before mentioned shall be reduced by the sum of ^ d. per ton per mile. The following Amendment with respect to merchandise, comprised in Classes A. and B. on the Whitehaven Junctioii Railway, &c., agreed to by the parties, was accepted by the Com- mittee, viz. : — " Notwithstanding anything in this Order the following provisions with respect to the trafiic specified in Classes A. and B. passing over the Whitehaven Junction (White- haven, to Maryport) and Cockermouth and Workington Railways, or any portion of such Railways, shall apply and have effect. (a.) In respect of waggons provided by the Company for the conveyance of traffic specified in Class A., the Company shall be entitled to demand and receive a charge of one farthing per ton per mile. (b.) In respect of the trafiic specified in Classes A. and B., and of waggons provided by the Company for the carriage thereof, which shall be conveyed for a less distance than four miles, the Company may demand and receive rates and charges as for four miles at the least, irrespective of the place of origin or destination of such traffic. (c.) No charge shall be made by the Company for the mere delivery of trucks into and upon a siding not belonging to the Company over the junction between the railway and such siding, or for the haulage of trucks from and off such a siding over the junction on to the railway of the Company." Mr. Pembroke Stephens, on behalf of the Garston Dock Traffic Association and other Freighters, and the Corporation of St. Helens, proposed an Amendment for their protection. Mr. Pope, on behalf of the London and North Western Railway Company, agreed to the provisions proposed, with Amendment, as follows : — In page 8, line 8, after " distance," insert, " but nothing in this Order shall affect the tolls, rates, dues, and charges prescribed by the St. Helen's Canal and Railway Transfer Act, 1864, Sections 12, 13, and 14 ; the London and North Western Railway (Additional Powers, England) Act, 1865, Section 72 ; and the London and North Western Railway (New Works and Additional Powers) Act, 1867, Section 48 ; but the Company may, in respect of the traffic there referred to, demand or take the tolls, rates, dues, or charges prescribed by those enactments, and shall not demand or take any tolls, rates, dues, or charges in excess thereof. Provided further, that nothing herein contained shall prejudice or affect any maximum rates or charges in respect of any new dock for the construction of which the Company may seek powers from Parliament." The Committee accepted the above Amendment. The ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. lix The Conveyance Rates in respect of Class I. were considered. ^, n^^- PpP^'^^^ tlie London and North Western Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment : " To leave out, in page 11, the rates applicable to Class I in order to insert 2-80 d., 1-85 d., VQOd., VlOd., and re-called Mr. R. T. H. Twelvetrees, who was further «xamined. Mr. Clifford was heard against the proposed Amendment, and re-called Mr. Frank Imvev who was further examined. ■' ^' Mr. Pope was heard in reply. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee deliberated.' Motion made and Question proposed. That the figures in the Provisional Order, as amended, by substituting 1-00 d. for -90 d. in the last column, be struck out.— Question put. -" That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Schedule." — The Committee divided :' Contents, 5. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Not Contents, 3. Duke of Richmond. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mi-. Wodehouse. Parties informed that the Committee had decided to take the Board of Trade Scale, with this exception, that the last division, the remainder of the distance, shall be, instead of a o'qO d., 1-00 d. ; that is to say, 1 d. The scale being 2-20 d., 1-85 d., 1-40 d., and then 1-00 d. Mr. Pope was heard to propose certain modifications in the conveyance rates for Classes 2, 3, 4, and 5. Mr. Shaw was heard against the proposed Amendment, and re-called Mr. Frederick Tillery Bishop, who was further examined. The Committee decided to retain the figures as in the Provisional Order, with certain alterations. In the rates for the first 20 miles, no alterations ; for the next 30 miles in Class 3, 2-65 cZ. in place of 2-60 cZ.; for the next 50 miles, in Class 2, I'SOci. ; in Class 2, for the remainder of the distance, VoO d. ; in Class 3, for the next 50 miles, 2-00 d. ; for the remainder of the distance, 1'80 d. ; in Class 4, for the next 50 miles, 2-50 d., and for the remainder of the distance, 2"20 d. ; for Class 5, for the next 50 miles, 3'2o d., and for the remainder of the distance, 2*50 d. Mr. Pope submitted the following agreed provisions with respect to Small Parcels and Hardware : — "Part VI. — Small Parcels by Merchandise Train. " After paragraph 2, insert 2a. A small parcel under this part of the schedule may consist of one consignment of two or more packages of merchandise comprised in the same class of the classification of not less than 14 pounds each in weight. " Any package weighing less than 14 pounds shall be deemed to be a small parcel, and the ■company may charge for any such parcel as if it were 28 pounds in weight." " Hardware. "With respect to the articles and things set forth under the headings Hardware and Hollow- ware in Class 3 of the classification, the maximum rates for conveyance over the railways governed by the London and North Western Railway Amalgamation Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 204), and the Birmingham, Wolverhampton, and Stour Valley Railway Act, 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. 328), shall be 2^ d. per ton per mile if conveyed for any less distance than 50 miles, 2 d. pei- ton per mile if conveyed for a distance of 50 miles, or upwards, provided always that where such articles and things are conveyed for any distance not exceeding 49 miles the company- may charge as for 49 miles at least." [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. (81.)« h2 Ix PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Tuesday, \Ath July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. The agreed provisions with respect to small parcels and hardware were accepted by the Committee and inserted in the Bill. The Appendix was considered. Mr. Moon, for the London and North Western Railway Company, was heard in support of an Amendment, in page 7, to leave out lines 33 and 34, viz. : " The Midland Railway Company in respect of the Ashby and Nuneaton Joint Railways." Mr. /. D. FitzGerald, in support of the Petition of R. D. Thomson, the Clifton Colliery Company, and G. E. Oheckland, was heard against the Amendment, and re-called Mr. George Edward Oheckland, who was further examined. Mr. Moon was heard in reply. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee decided to leave out, in page 7, lines 33 and 34. Scale 2, in page 9, was further considered. The Committee inserted in Scale 2, page 9, the following Amendment : — " The Dowlais and Merthyr Railway, jointly owned by the Company and the Brecon and Merthyr Tydfil Junction Railway Company - " The Nantybwch and Rhymney Railway, jointly owned by the Company and the Rhymney Railway Company " The Charnwood Forest Railway, worked by the Company " The Mold and Denbigh Junction Railway, worked by the Company - The position of the Sirhowy Railway was considered. Mr. Capper, on behalf of the South Wales and Monmouthshire Freighter's Association, was heard on the question of passing the rates of the Sirhowy Railway. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee decided to fix the short distances at four miles for the Sirhowy Railway. Section 6, considered as applicable only to the London and North Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill. Mr. Moon was heard in support of an Amendment, to leave out the words " For distances not exceeding 25 miles, 3 d. per ton " and " exceeding 25 miles, but." Mr. Shaw was heard against the proposed Amendment. The Committee delibei-ated. The Committee decided to leave out " For distances not exceeding 25 miles, 3 d. per ton," in order to insert the words " For distances not exceeding 20 miles, 4J d. ; for distances exceeding 20 miles, but not exceeding 50 miles, 6 d. This decision only to apply to the London and North Western Railway Company's Schedule. Mr. Littler was heard to propose that the Provisional Order should come into operation on the 1st January 1893, and re-called Mr. George Findlay, who was further examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee decided that the Provisional Order shall come into operation on 1 st August 1892, or such further time as the Board of Trade shall by order appoint. Section 22 further considered. Mr. Pope was heard in support of the following Amendment, to add at the end of the Section the words, " and where a trader forwards an empty truck to any station or siding for the purpose of being loaded with merchandise, the company shall make no charge in respect of the forwarding of such empty truck, provided that the truck is returned to them loaded for conveyance ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Ixi conveyance direct to the consignor and station or siding from whom and whence it was so forwarded." Sir Alfred Hickman accepted the Amendment in lieu of the one which he proposed. The Committee accepted the Amendment. Mr. Pope submitted the following proviso to Scale 2, Class A., which had been agreed to : " Provided that with regard to the Sirhowy Railway, the company shall, with respect to merchandise in Class A., conveyed for a less distance than four miles, have power to charge as for four miles at the least, irrespective of the place of origin, or destination of the traffic." The Committee accepted the Amendment. Sir Alfred Hickman was heard in support of the following Amendment : To insert in pages 10 and 11, after the table, the words, " Provided that on merchandise comprised in Classes C, 1, 2, and 3, with, when tendered for delivery, a declaration of owner's risk equivalent to a contract under Section 7 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act, 1854, the maximum charges authorised by this schedule shall be reduced 15 per centum." The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. The opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to existing agreements was considered by the Committee. Postponed Clauses 1 — 2 of the Bill considered, and agreed to. Sections 1 — 4 of the Provisional Order again considered, and agreed to, with an Amendment. Schedule of Maximum Rates and Charges again considered, and agreed to, with Amend- ments. Remainder of the Schedule again considered, and agreed to, with Amendments. Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. Ordered, That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House. Motion made, and Question, That Mr. Hanbury be instructed to make the said Report to the House of Commons {The Duke of Richmond and Gordon), — put, and agreed to. GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY (RATES AND CHARGES) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL. Resolved, That all Amendments made by the Committee in the London and North Western Railway Provisional Order Bill, as far as concerns the Clauses of the Bill, the Schedule of Maximum Rates and Charges, except Sections 6 and 27, Parts II., III., IV., V., and VI. of the Table of Maximum Rates and Charges, and the Classification of Merchandise Traffic, be inserted in the remaining Provisional Order Bills referred to the Committee. Maximum Rates and Charges with respect to Class A. are considered. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the Great Western Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — In page 8, line 5, after the words " entire distance," to insert the following words : " Provided that nothing contained in this Order shall alter, vary, or effect the tolls, rates, or charges which the company are, at the commencement of this Order, authorised to demand and take in respect of merchandise traffic on the Monmouthshire Railways of the company amalgamated with the undertaking of the company by the Great Western and Monmouthshire Railway Amalgamation Act, 1880, or in respect of merchandise traffic on any line of railway on Lord Tredegar's Park Mile, in the occupation of the company." This Amendment having been agreed to, was accepted by the Committee. Mr. Cripps was heard to propose the following Amendment, agreed upon for the protection of traders represented by Sir Alfred Hickman : " Provided " (whatever maximum rates may be fixed) " that the maximum rates for conveyance for iron and steel articles in Classes B. and C. of the Classification shall not exceed upon the portions of the railway, respectively, governed by the Great Western Act, 1847 (10 & 11 Vict. c. ccxxvi), and the Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railways Acts, 1845 (8 & 9 Vict. c. clxxxiv), and 1846 (9 & 10 Vict. c. cclxxviii), the rates by those Acts, respectively, authorised." The Committee accepted the Amendment. Mr. Cripps, for the Great Western Railway Company, was heard to propose to leave out the rates applicable to Clauses A. and B., on pages 8, 9, and 10, and to insert instead thereof the following : — (81.)a ^ 3 Proposed Ixii PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE Proposed Cumulative Scales for Classes A. and B. Scale I. For the first 20 miles - next 30 „ - - „ 50 ,. ,, remainder of the distance Scale II. Class A. Per Ton per Mile. Class B. Per Ton per Mile. FoT the first 20 miles . d. 1-50 d. 1-75 „ next 80 „ - 0-90 1-20 ., ,) 50 „ - - - 0-40 0-80 „ remainder of the distance - 0-35 0-50 ..and re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Wednesday, \5th Juljj 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Eichmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Houghton. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Cripps, on behalf of the Great Western Railway Company, was heard in support of the following Amendment : — Scale I.— Applicable to the following Portions of the Railway : — Railways governed by the under- mentioned Acts. 1. Great Western Act, 1847 2. Oxford, Worcester, and Wolver- hampton Acts, 1845 and 1846 3. Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Act, 1846 4. Ogmore Valley Act, 1863 5. Cardiff and Ogmore Act, 1873 For the first 20 Miles. Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-95 For the next 30 Miles. Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-85 For the next 50 Miles. Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-50 For the remainder of the Distance. Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-40 ON EAILWAY BATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Scale II. — Applicable to the following portions of the Railway:— Ixiii Eailways governed by the under- mentioned Acts. For the first 20 Miles. For the next 30 Miles. For the next 50 Miles. For the remainder of the Distance. Per Ton per Per Ton per Per Ton per Per Ton per Mile. Mile. Mile. Mile. d. d. d. d. 1. Shrewsbury and Birmingham Act, \ 1846 2. Severn Valley Act, 1855 3. Pontypool, Caerleon, and Newport Act, 1865 - - - 4. Vale of Neath Act, 1846 5. Aberdare Valley Act, 1855 6. Swansea and Neath Act, 1861 1-20 0-90 0-50 0-40 7. Gloucester and Dean Forest Act, 1846 - - - - 8. Llynvi Valley Act, 1855 9. Coleford Act, 1872 10. Severn Tunnel Act, 1872 11. Shrewsbury and Chester Act, 1846 12> Worcester and Hereford Act, 1853 Scale III. — Applicable to all other portions of the Railway except the Monmouthshire Railways. For the first 20 Miles. For the next 30 Miles. For the next 50 Miles. For the remainder of the Distance. Per Ton per Mile. d. I'oO Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-90 Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-40 Per Ton per Mile. d. 0-35 and re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. Mr. Shaw was heard on behalf of the following Amendment : — Maximum Rates proposed by the Landowners, Traders, and Colliery Proprietors and others of South Wales and Monmouthshire for Class A., in lieu of those in the Provisional Order (Scale 1.). Scale 1. — Applicable to such portions of the Railway as are mentioned in Scale 1. For the first 20 Miles, or any part of such DistanGCj Per Ton per Mile. For the next .30 Miles, or any part of such Distance, Per Ton per Mile. For the next 50 Miles, or any part of such Distance. For the remainder of the Distance. d. 0-875 " d. 0-65 d. 0-50 d. 0-40 (81.)a h4 and Ixiv PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITTEE and called Mr. Irthel Treharne Rees, who was sworn and examined, Mr. Frederick Tillery Bishop, who was re-called, and further examined, Mr. William Howard Hunter, who was sworn and examined, and Mr. Edwin Grove, who was re-called, and further examined. Mr. Moon re-called Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, who was further examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. Mr. Joseph L. Wilkinson, was re-called, and further examined. The Committee decided to take the Llanelly line out of Scale 1, and to put it into Scale 2. They decided to retain the figures in the Provisional Order altered to their cumulative equivalent with the exception that -95 d. be substituted for -90 d. in the first column, and to strike out Railways 16, 17, and 18 from Scale 1. Mr. Woodfall, on behalf of the Marquis of Bute and the Monmouthshire and South Wales Freighters' Association, was heard to propose to remove the South Wales Railway from Scale 2 to Scale 1 in respect of Class B., and called Mr. Edward Pritchard Martin, and Colonel John Roper Wright, who were sworn, and examined. ' Further consideration adjourned. Mr. Gripps was heard to propose to insert the following provisions for the protection of the Marquis of Bute : " Nothing contained in this Act shall repeal, affect or prejudice the enactments contained in the provisoes to Section 22 of the Great Western Railway Act, 1867, or the provisions with regard to tolls and charges contained in Section 30 of the Great Western Railway Act, 1872, or Section 47 of the Great Western Railway Act, 1873." [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half -past Eleven o'clock. Thursday, \ 6th July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Earl of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Scales I. and II. of Part T. of Maximum Rates and Charges of the Great Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, further considered. The Committee decided to make no change in the rates proposed by the Board of Trade. Mr. Bidder was heard in support of the proposal to insert provisions for the protection of the Marquis of Bute. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee decided to insert the said provisions. Mr. Shaw was heard on behalf of the Landowners, Trustees, &c., of South Wales and Monmouthshire, in support of the following Amendment, to insert in Scale III. the following railways authorised by the following Acts : — The Newport, Abergavenny, and Hereford Railway Act of 1846. Taff Vale Extensions of 1847 and 1853. Railways included in the West Midland Railway Act of 1860. South Wales Consolidation Act, with reference to that portion of the railway Ivins between Newport, Monmouthshire, and Carmarthen. J J & Pontypool, Caerleon, and Newport Railway Act, 1865. Vale of Neath Railway Act of 1846. Aberdare Valley Railway Act of 1855. Swansea and Neath Railway Act, 1861. Ely and Clydach Railway Act, 1873. Llynvi ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. IxV Llynvi Valley Railway Act, 1855. Ogmore Valleys Railway Act, 1863. Ely Valley Extension Railway made under Ogmore and Ely Railways Amalgamation Act, 1865. Cardiff and Ogmore Railway Act, 1873. Great Western and Rhymney Joint Railway, constructed under Acts of Rhymney Railway Acts, 1857, 1864, and 1882. Great Western and Taff Vale Joint Railway, constructed under Great Western Railway Act, 1867. And re-called Mr. Irthel Treharne Bees and Mr. Henry Lambert, who were further examined. The Committee decided to insert in Scale III. those lines whose statutory maxim is 1 d. per ton per mile, including trucks, and the Pontypool, Caerleon, and Newport Railway. Further consideration adjourned. Mr. Woodfall was heard in support of the insertion of provisions for the protection of the Dowlais Iron Company. Mr. Bidder submitted the following Section : — Nothing contained in this Order shall repeal the enactments contained in the provisoes to Section 22 of the Great Western Act of 1867, or the provisions with regard to tolls and charges contained in Section 30 of the Great Western Act of 1872, or Section 47 of the Great Western Act of 1873," which was agreed to by the Committee. Mr. Shaw was heard in support of a four-mile clause to be applied to the Llynvi Valley Railway. Mr. Moon was heard against the Amendment. Lord Balfour of Burleigh was heard. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. On the question as to the date of the commencement of the Order, Mr. Moan re-called Mr. Henry Lambert, who was further examined. The Committee decided to fix the same time as in the case of the London and North Western Railway Company Order, viz., 1st August 1892, unless the Board of Trade, by Order, should alter the date to a later period. Further Amendments made. Clauses, amended, and agreed to. Schedule, as amended, agreed to. Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. Ordered, That the Bill, as amended, be reported to the House. Motion made, and Question, That Mr. Hanbury be instructed to make the said Report to the House of Commons— (The Duke of Richmond and Gordon),-— ^ut, and agreed to. Midland Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill considered. Mr Balfour Browne, on behalf of the West Yorkshire Coalowners' Association and the South Yorkshire Coalowners' Assuranpe Society, was heard to propose in the Rates for Class A., to leave out 1-15 d. and 0-90 d. as the rates for the first 20 and the next 30 miles, and to msert 0-95 d. and 0-85 d. Mr J D. FitzGerald, on behalf of the Corporation of Leicester, was heard to propose to leave out all the conveyance rates proposed for Class A., and to insert "0-95 d., 0-85 d., 0-50 d., and 0-40 d." Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the Midland Railway Company, against the proposed Amendments, re-called Mr. George Henry Turner, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept either Amendment. Mr Balfour Browne was heard to propose to insert provisions confirming an agreement between the Midland Railway Company and the Staveley Coal and Iron Company. The Committee refused to insert the proposed provisions. Mr Bishop was heard to propose a short distance o#»three miles instead of six miles being applicable to the Swansea Vale Railway, from Swansea to Brynamman. (81.)c* i T^*^ Ixvi PROCEEDINGS OF THE JOINT COMMITfEE The Committee accepted the proposed Amendment. Mr. Bidder, on behalf of the Midland Kailway Company, was heard to propose, in Section 6 of the Bill, to leave out the first two lines of the Scale, and to insert " for any distance under 50 miles, 6 d." The Committee 'accepted the proposed Amendment. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. Great Northern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill considered. [Adjourned till To-morrow, at Half-past Eleven o'clock. Friday, 17 fh July 1891. PRESENT : The Duke of Richmond and Gordon in the Chair. Eai-1 of Belmore. Earl of Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr. Dickson. Mr. Hanbury. Mr. Hunter. Mr. Wodehouse. Great Northern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill further considered. Mr. CripfS, on behalf of the Great Northern Railway Company, was heard in support of an Amendment providing that for distances not exceeding 50 miles a waggon rate of 6 d. a ton shall be allowed, striking out the initial distances, and the words " for distances exceeding 25 miles," as was granted in the case of the Midland Railway Company on the previous day, and called Mr. Henry Oakley, v^ho was further examined. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. Amendment proposed. — In Section 6, to leave out the first two lines of the Scale in order to insert " for any distance under 50 miles, G d." Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill. — The Committee divided : Contents, 4. Sir Joseph Bailey, Mr. Hanbury, Mr. Wodehouse. Mr. Hunter. Non-Contents, 3. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Earl of Belmore. Lord Belper. Parties informed that the Committee had decided not to insert 6 d., but the same fio^ures (4|rf.) as in the London and North Western Railway Company Provisional Order Bill. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, considered. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the Great Eastern Railway Company, was heard to propose, in Section 6, to leave out the first two lines of the scale, in order to insert " For any distance under 50 miles, 6 d." The Committee refused to accept the proposed Amendment. Mr. Poyser, on behalf of the Chemical Manure Manufacturers Association, was heard in support of an Amendment, to insert provisions confirming certain agreements between the Great Eastern Railway Company and the above Petitioners. The Committee refused to insert the proposed provisions. Clauses, Schcjclule, and Preamble coifsidered, amended, and agreed to. London ON RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS. Ixvii London and South Western Railway Compaay (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, considered. Mr. Pember, on behalf of the London and South Western Railway Company, was heard in support of an Amendment to increase the Conveyance Rates for the longer distance in Classes 1, 2, 3, 4, and called Mr. Charles- Scatter, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Clifford, on behalf of the Mansion House Association, was heard against the Amendment. Mr. Courtenay Boyle was heard. The Committee deliberated. Motion made, and Question proposed, That the rate for Class 5, for distances over 100 miles, be raised to 3 d. — Question put. — The Committee divided : Contents, 7. Not Contents, 2. Duke of Richmond and Gordon. Mr. Dickson. Earl of Belmore. Mr. Hunter. Earl Camperdown. Lord Belper. Sir Joseph Bailey. Mr, Hanbury. Mr. Wodehouse. Parties informed that the Committee accepted the figures of the Board of Trade, with the exception of the last figure in Class 5, which is raised from 2-90 d. to 3-00 d. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. . London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill, considered. Mr. Saunders, on behalf of the London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company, was heard to propose that the rating for waggon hire be the same as for the Northern Companies ; and re-called Mr. 6. W. Staniforth, who was further examined. Mr. Balfour Browne, on behalf of the Corporation of Brighton, was heard against the Amendment. The Committee accepted the Amendment. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard to propose to leave out the conveyance rates applicable to all the classes, and to insert instead : — Classes. For the next 20 Miles, or any part of such Distance. For the next 30 Miles, or any part of such Distance. For the next 50 Miles, or any part of such Distance. For the Remainder of the Distance. d. d. d. d. A 1-00 0-90 0-50 0-40 B 1-25 1-00 0-80 0-50 C 1-80 1-50 1-20 0-70 1 2-20 1-85 1-40 1-00 2 2-65 2-30 1-80 1-50 3 3-10 2-65 200 1'80 4 3-60 315 2-50 2-20 5 4-30 3-70 3-25 2-50 and re-called Mr. Colbatch Clark, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Mr. Lush Wilson, for the Corporation of Brighton, was heard to propose, at the end of page 9, to add the following provision, viz. : " Provided that this scale shall not apply to (81.)a k merchandise Ixviii PEOCEEDINGS : — RAILWAY RATES AND CHARGES PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS, merchandise comprised in Classes A., B., or C. conveyed from or to London or from or to the railway of any other company over the portions of the railway herein specially mentioned to or from any station or place on the railway which is not situate upon any of the portions of the railway herein specially mentioned, but Scale I. shall apply to such merchandise through- out its entire transit on the railway " ; ^nd re-called Mr. Golbatch Clark, who was further examined. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. South Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill considered. Mr. Littler, on behalf of the South Eastern Railway Company, was heard in support of an Amendment to allow in Class B. for the first 30 miles I'lO d. instead of 1 d., and for the waggon rate, 4| d. The Committee accepted the proposed Amendments. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill considered. Mr. Lush Wilson was heard to propose to insert the following provisions for the protection of the Vestry of the Parish of Newington, viz. : " The Company shall not charge for the conveyance of the road scrapings, house dust, or other town refuse (whether mixed with manure or not) consigned by or on behalf of the Vestry of St. Mary, Newington, Surrey, or for trucks, or for any services in connection with such conveyance, at any higher rate than 2s. If?, per ton for any distance not exceeding 25 miles, and Id. per ton per mile for any distance beyond such 25 miles, including all terminal charges, use of trucks, and all other services whatsoever, less a rebate of 20 per cent., provided such consignments shall amount to not less than 20,000 tons per annum," and called Mr. L. J. Dunham, who was sworn, and examined. Mr. Balfour Browne was heard in support thereof. The Committee refused to accept the Amendment. Clauses, Schedule, and Preamble considered, amended, and agreed to. Ordered, That the following Provisional Order Bills, viz. : — The Great Northern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The Great Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The London and South "Western Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The London, Brighton, and South Coast Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; The South Eastern Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; and The London, Chatham, and Dover Railway Company (Rates and Charges) Provisional Order Bill ; as amended, be reported to the House. Motion made, and Question, That Mr. Hanbury be instructed to report the said! Bills to the House of Commons — (Duke of Richmond and Gordon), — put, and agreed to. 9^. ! \ . ^Ti i -f f*'l«--f .: * I . . >.: *• '^4 ¥mM. y • ^?^: ♦;