■ A^fi 
 
 'ION 
 
 ....OF THE.... 
 
 Illinois Coal Operators 
 Association 
 
 United Mine Workers of P nierica 
 
 /// 
 
 (DISTRICT (2), -^ 
 
 KCID ST 
 
 ....PEORIA. ILLINOIS.... 
 
 February 24\to March {3, 1902/ 
 
THE LIBRARY 
 
 OF THE 
 
 NEW YORK STATE SCHOOL 
 
 OF 
 
 INDUSTRIAL AND LABOR 
 
 RELATIONS 
 
 AT 
 CORNELL UNIVERSITY 
 
JOINT cop:vention 
 
 The Illinois Coal Operators Association 
 
 tn 
 
 AND THE 
 
 UKITED sm aiOHK£RS OF APRIGA 
 
 (DISTRICT 12), 
 
 HEI,D AT 
 
 PEORIA, ILLINOIS, 
 February 24 to March 13, 1902. 
 
 Revised and Edited by C. L. SCROGGS, 
 Rooms 1002-1003 Ellsworth Building, 
 
 355 Dearborn St., Chicago, Illinois. 
 
 JOLttT REPUBLICAN PRINTING CO. 
 
 \(,W'^ 
 
% Cornell University 
 B Library 
 
 The original of tiiis book is in 
 tine Cornell University Library. 
 
 There are no known copyright restrictions in 
 the United States on the use of the text. 
 
 http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924002335747 
 
PROCEEDINGS 
 
 OF THE 
 
 JOINT CONVENTION, 
 
 FEBRUARY 24, 1902. 
 
 The joint convention of miners and 
 operators was called to order at 2:30 p. 
 m., February 24, 1902, by W. R. Russell, 
 president of the U. M. "W. of A. of Dis- 
 trict 12. Illinois. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— It has been cus- 
 tomary in all of our joint conventions 
 for an operator to preside. I therefore 
 move that Mr. Herman Justi act as 
 chairman of the joint convention. 
 (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Mr. Chairman and Gen- 
 tlemen of the Convention: Thrice have 
 you' conferred upon me the responsibil- 
 ity of presiding over your deliberations. 
 
 I am sensible of this hish compli- 
 ment and I would be doing- violence to 
 my own feelings if I gave no evidence 
 of my' sense of appreciation. 
 
 The experience obtained in these an- 
 nual joint conventions should be val- 
 uable and this experience, in time 
 should enable us to establish relations 
 of confidence and respect so strong and 
 sincere that the business we are 
 brought together to transact will be 
 dispatched in - a manner to commend 
 our joint movement to employers and 
 smployes throughout the world. On. a 
 former occasion I said to you that the 
 purposes of this -convention were not 
 to engage in any parliamentary 
 wrangles nor to discuss questions for- 
 sign to the business- which brings us 
 together. "Parliamentary law , will be 
 observed only insofar as it may , expe- 
 aite business,' but no advantage can 
 possibly be obtained nor should any 
 advantage be obtained by means of 
 oarliameritary tactics. We are here as 
 olain, practical business men and the 
 iuties of the chairman of a convention 
 )f business men should be simple and 
 jasily performed. If supported and 
 sustained by you I can hope to perform 
 
 my task to your satisfaction. Under 
 the rules that have in the past gov- 
 erned lis there has been no possibility 
 of either side gaining any advantage of 
 the other and we need therefore have 
 no fear of any advantage being given 
 or taken in this joint convention. 
 
 This is not the occasion for any elab- 
 orate or extended speech. What I de- 
 sire to say now is practically what I 
 have said in the past; that we are not 
 partners; that our interests are 
 not identical, but that the relations ex- 
 isting between employer and employe 
 are contract relations and contract re- 
 lations only. This being understood 
 it should not be difficult to deter- 
 mine that in this joint movement our 
 advantages are equal. The employe 
 has something to sell which the em- 
 ployer desires to buy and as between 
 business men we each desire to make 
 the best trade possible consistent with 
 our interests in their relation to our 
 competitors in other, fields. Let us 
 proceed in these negotiations with wise 
 business tact and with respectful con- 
 sideration for each other's interests 
 and feelings. 
 
 Once more thanking you for this 
 honor and earnestly beseeching you to 
 co-operate with me in carrying Qut the 
 objects for which we have come to- 
 gether, I now call this convention to 
 order and declare it ready for busi- 
 ness! 
 
 The first, business to be transacted' is 
 the selection of a secretary to the' joint 
 .convention. 
 
 . MR. GARRISON:— I pre,sent to this 
 "convention the name 'of "W. D. Ryan. 
 (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL.:- 1 move that Mr. C. 
 L. Scroggs be selected as assistant sec- 
 retary. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 PROPERTY OF Lm-RARY 
 
 m VOliK sure sc;ssi 36879 
 
 IWrniCTDMl 
 
 SaATIOKS 
 
Morning Session, February 25. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that the rules 
 governing the interstate joint conven- 
 tion govern this convention. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The rules govern- 
 ing the interstate joint convention give 
 each state an equal number of votes. 
 How will that govern in this conven- 
 tion? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- With the same ex- 
 ception as last year, that the miners 
 have an equal vote with the operators. 
 The motion was carried. 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you that the 
 secretary of the miners' convention and 
 the secretary of the operators' organ- 
 ization be constituted a committee on 
 credentials, to report to the chair those 
 entitled to a seat in this convention. 
 (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think it would be well 
 to have the rules read under which 
 this convention is working. 
 
 (Secretary Ryan read the rules to 
 govern the convention, and at the con- 
 clusion of the reading said:) 
 
 The clause prohibiting the use of to- 
 bacco in this convention not being in 
 the rules as just read, but in a resolu- 
 tion passed by the convention, I move 
 that the rule prohibiting the use of to- 
 bacco during the sessions of the con- 
 vention be made a part of the rules. 
 
 MR. HULL:— We adopted the rules 
 that governed the interstate conven- 
 tion, and they state explicitly that 
 smoking shall be prohibited. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I read the rules adopt- 
 ed by the Illinois joint convention a 
 year ago. The rules of the interstate 
 joint convention do prohibit smoking. 
 I am fond of smoking, but I don't 
 think there should be any question 
 about It here. The hall is not large, 
 and if we persist in smoking we will 
 need Mr. Moorshead's fan from Diver- 
 non to keep the smoke out. 
 
 MR. TRAER:— I move that the min- 
 ers and operators respectively now re- 
 port the names of their members of the 
 scale committee to the convention. 
 
 MR. JtrSTt:— Has the credentials 
 committee reported? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire on behalf of 
 the miners to submit a list to the con- 
 ventiion of the members of our organi- 
 zation who should be seated in this 
 convention. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— On behalf of the 
 operators of Illinois I beg leave to file 
 a list of the membership of the Illinois 
 Coal Operators' Association, all of 
 which membership is represented in 
 this comventidn. 
 
 MR. TRAER:— I move that the re- 
 port of the credentials committee be 
 received and approved. (Seconded and 
 carried.) 
 
 MR. TRAER: — I now renew my mo- 
 tion that the operators and miners re- 
 spectively now report to the convention 
 the names of the scale committee. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— The miners have 
 not yet selected their members of the 
 
 scale committee. At this time It will 
 be impossible for us to present their 
 names. 
 
 MR. TRAER:— I will withdraw my 
 motion. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move that this 
 convention adjourn until tomorrow 
 morning at the time fixed by the rules. 
 
 The motion was seconded and car- 
 ried, and the convention stood adjourn- 
 ed until 9:30 Tuesday morning. 
 
 JOINT CONVENTION. 
 Peoria, 111., February 25, 1902. 
 
 The joint convention was called to 
 order at 9:30 a. m. by Chairman Justl. 
 Mr. John B. Lennon, of Bloomington, 
 treasurer of the American Federation 
 of Labor, was introduced to the meet- 
 ing and extended an invitation to the 
 convention to meet in Bloomington 
 next year. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The following Is the 
 miners' scale committee: 
 
 First District: — H. C. Perry, David 
 Dagon, Principals. Matt Charlton, W. 
 J. Rogers, Alternates. 
 
 Second District: — ^William Topham, 
 Fred Drews, Principals. Sylvester 
 Palmer, Nelson Christiansen, Alter- 
 nates. 
 
 Third District:— James P. Morris, 
 Eugene Zellers, Principals. John 
 O'Neilli A. C. Foley, Alternates. 
 
 Fourth District: — P. F. Delehanty, D. 
 Cameron, Principals. B. Murphy, B. A. 
 Seaton, Alternates. 
 
 Fifth District:— John Green, William 
 Hefti, Principals. Peter McCaU, Joseph 
 Pope, Alternates. 
 
 Sixth District:— W. F. Knowlmann, 
 W. T. Morris, Principals. Thomas 
 Jeremiah, P. A. Brod, Alternates. 
 
 Seventh District:— David Huggins, 
 Groce Lawrence, Principals. E. Spil- 
 lers, J. W. Ledford, Alternates. 
 
 Eighth District— T. H. Picton, F. M. 
 Guthrie, Principals. G. W. Armstrong, 
 Samuel Edwards, Alternates. 
 
 Ninth District:- Henry Jackson, 
 John C. Schuck, Principals. Morgan J. 
 Rees, Samuel Cartwright, Alternates 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The operators' scal(- 
 committee is as follows: 
 
 First District— H. N. Taylor, A L 
 Sweet, S. M. Dalzell. 
 
 Second District:— J. H. Garaghty W 
 W. Keefer. ' 
 
 Third District:— P. G. Matheney, Left 
 Kincaid, Edwards Brown 
 
 Fourth District:— D. D. Shumway. F 
 W. Lukens, Walter Puterbaugh 
 
 Fifth District:- C. F. Parker, J. C. 
 Muren, A. J. Moorshead. 
 
 Sixth District:- C. E. Hull, S. B. Ba- 
 ton, F. D. Secor. 
 
 Seventh District:— F. S. Peabody, M 
 C. W^right. 
 
 Eight District:— Richard Newsam 6 
 W. Traer, Henry Long. 
 
 Ninth District:— Randolph Smith, B 
 e'i-^^^Jfi.^""^-''""" O.L. Garrison; 
 
Afternoon Sbssion, February 25. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I move that the names 
 just read, representing the miners and 
 operators, be the scale committee. 
 (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 It was moved, seconded and adopted 
 that the state officers of the U. M. W. 
 of A. and the Illinois Coal Operators' 
 association, including the national 
 president of the U. M. "W. of A. and the 
 ccmmissloners of the operators' asso- 
 ciation, be made ex-offlcio members of 
 the scale committee. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— Does that exclude 
 from the committee-room ^the ex- 
 ecutive board members of our organi- 
 zation and yours? 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— That is for the conven- 
 tion to decide. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Up to the present con- 
 tention that has never been done. I 
 understand that the courtesy of the 
 scale committee-room has always been 
 accorded to the executive board mem- 
 Ttters of both organizations. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I am quite sure the 
 piover of the motion had no desire to 
 ■exclude anyone; it was no intentional 
 discourtesy or oversight. I am sure it 
 is the desire of all parties that all who 
 rightfully belong in the meetings of the 
 scale committee because of their official 
 position, shall be admitted. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 operators present their scale. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think it would be 
 useless for us to spar this year about 
 scales. I move that both scales be read 
 by the secretary. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Have you one ready? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— If there are no ob- 
 jections, I will withdraw my motion. 
 The miners have no scale prepared at 
 the present time to read to the con- 
 vention. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't want the 
 miners to be any more courteous than 
 we are. We withdraw our motion 
 also. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— As I stated before, 
 the miners at this time are not pre- 
 pared to submit their scalp. If it is not 
 asking too much we would like to re- 
 quest the operators to withdraw for an 
 hour, and at the end of that time we 
 will be readv to present our scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Before we withdraw 
 I would like Vo say that the operators 
 have prepared their scale, and will be 
 ready to present it to the convention 
 at the regular hour this afternoon. I 
 move that we adjourn until the regu- 
 lar meeting time this afternoon. (Sec- 
 onded and carried.) 
 
 JOINT CONVENTION. 
 
 Peoria, 111., February 25, 1902. 
 
 The convention called to order at 2 
 o'clock p. m. Tuesday, by Chairman 
 Justi. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— When the con- 
 vention adjourned this morning, it ad- 
 journed to meet to hear the proposed 
 scale to be presented by the miners and 
 
 the operators. Are you ready for busi- 
 ness, and are both sides ready to make 
 their reports to this convention? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 proposed scale of the operators and the 
 proposed scale of the miners be read. 
 
 The motion was seconded and car- 
 ried. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— I hope perfect 
 order will be preserved during the read- 
 ing. I hope there will be no expressions 
 of approval or disapproval on either 
 side. 
 
 Secretary Scroggs read the scale pro- 
 posed by the operators as fallows: 
 
 OPERATORS' SCALE. ' 
 
 Whereas, A contract between the op- 
 erators of the competitive coal fields of 
 Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois 
 and the United Mine Workers of Amer- 
 ica has been entered into at the City of 
 Indianapolis, Ind., Feb. 8, 1902, by which 
 the present scale of prices at the basic 
 points as fixed by the agreement made 
 in Indianapolis, Ind., Feb. 2, 1900, is 
 continued in force and effect for one 
 year from April 1, 1902, to March 31, 
 1903, inclusive; and 
 
 Whereas, This contract fixes the pick 
 mining price of bituminous mine-run 
 coal at Danville at forty-nine cents per 
 ton of two thousand pounds; therefore, 
 be it 
 
 Resolved, That the prices for pick 
 mined coal throughout the state for one 
 year, beginning April 1, 1902, shall be 
 as follows: 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 
 Streator, Cardiff and associ- 
 ated mines, including Toluca 
 thick vein 68c 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, 
 including twenty-four inches of 
 brushing 76c 
 
 Wilmington and associated mines, 
 including Cardiff long wall and 
 Bloomlngton thin vein, includ- 
 ing brushing 81c 
 
 Bloomlngton thick vein 71c 
 
 Pontiac, including- 24 inches of 
 brushing 81c 
 
 Pontiac top vein 68c 
 
 Marseilles, Seneca and Morris(Wil- 
 mington conditions) 81c 
 
 Clarke City lower seam, brushing 
 in coal 66c 
 
 SECOND DISTRICT. 
 Danville, WestvlUe, Grape Creek 
 and associated mines in Vermil- 
 ion county ' 49c 
 
 THIRD DISTRICT. 
 
 Springfield and associated mines.. 49.7c 
 
 Lincoln and Niantic 63c 
 
 Colfax 53c 
 
 FOURTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mines on C. & A. south of Spring- 
 field, to and Including Carlln- 
 ville; including Taylorville, Pana, 
 Litchfield, Hillsboro, Witt (Pais- 
 ley), Divernon and Pawnee 49c 
 
6 
 
 AFTBRNOON SBSSION, FEBRUARY 25. 
 
 Assumption long wall, under regu- 
 lations of third vein field 65%c 
 
 Moweaqua, room and pillar B3o 
 
 Mt. Pulaski, room and pillar 660 
 
 Decatur, present conditions 64c 
 
 FIFTH DISTRICT. 
 Glen Carbon, Belleville and asso- 
 ciated mines, to and including 
 PinckneyvlUe, "WillisvUle and 
 
 Nashville 49c 
 
 Coal five feet and under 54c 
 
 SIXTH DISTRICT. 
 Duquoln, Odin, Sandoval, Cen- 
 
 tralia and associated mines 45c 
 
 Salem and Kinmundy 50c 
 
 Kinmundy, long wall, under third 
 
 vein regulations 66c 
 
 SEVENTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mt. Vernon 50c 
 
 Jackson county 45c 
 
 (All coal five feet and under 5 cents 
 extra.) 
 
 Lower bench, Jackson county 53c 
 
 Saline county 45c 
 
 Williamson county 42c 
 
 EIGHTH DISTRICT. 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, thin 
 or lower vein (third vein con- 
 ditions) 76c 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, No. 
 
 5 vein 56c 
 
 Astoria, No. 5 vein (Fulton and 
 
 Peoria counties conditions) 56c 
 
 Pekin 56c 
 
 Fulton and Peoria Counties, No. 
 
 G vein 56c 
 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock 60c 
 
 Cable and Sherrard 60c 
 
 Kewanee and Etherley 65c 
 
 Wantling's unknown seam — c 
 
 NINTH DISTRICT. 
 Mt. Olive, Staunton, Gillespie. 
 Clyde, Sorento and Coffeen and 
 mines on the Vandalia line as 
 far east as and including Smith- 
 boro, and on the B. & O. S.-W. 
 
 as far east as Breese 49c 
 
 Coal five feet and unc".er .■ 54c 
 
 1st. The Indianapolis convention of 
 1602 having adopted the mining and un- 
 derground day labor scale in effect 
 April 1, 1900, as the scale for the year 
 beginning April 1, 1902, no changes or 
 conditions shall be imposed in the Il- 
 linois scale for the coming year that in- 
 crease the cost of production of coal in 
 any district in the state. 
 
 2d. N'oi scale of wages shall be made 
 by the United Mine Workers for mine 
 manager, mine manager's assistant, 
 mine examiner, top foreman, company 
 weighman, boss driver, night boss, head 
 machinist, head boilermaker, head car- 
 penter, night watchman, hoisting en- 
 gineers, surface prop man, electrician, 
 coal inspector, teamsters, stable man. 
 It being understood that "assistant" 
 shall apply to such as are authorized to 
 act In that capacity only. The author- 
 ity to hire and discharge shall be vested 
 in the mine manager, top foreman, boss 
 driver and machine boss. 
 
 3d. Any operator paying the scale- 
 rate for mining and day labor under 
 this agreement shall at all times be at 
 liberty toi load any railroad cars what- 
 ever, regardless of their ownership, with 
 coal, and sell and deliver such coal in 
 any market and to any person, firm or 
 corporation that he may desire. 
 
 4th. (a) The scale of prices for min- 
 ing per ton of 2,000 pounds run-of-mine 
 coal herein provided for, Is understood 
 in every case to be for coal free from 
 slate, bone and other inpuritles, loaded 
 in cars at, the face, weighed before 
 screening; and that the practice of 
 pushing coal by the miners shall bfr 
 prohibited. 
 
 (b) Where chain mining machines 
 are used, the machine cuttings shall be 
 thrown back into the gob or loaded out 
 by company men at the option of the 
 operator and under no circumstances- 
 shall such cuttings be loaded out by the 
 miners. 
 
 6th. (a) Whether the coal is shot 
 after being undercut or sheared by pick 
 or machine, or shot without undercut- 
 ting or shearing, the miners must drill 
 and blast the coal in accordance with 
 the state mining law of Illinois, in; 
 order to protect the roof and timbers 
 in the interest of general safety. If it 
 can be shown that any miner persis- 
 tently violates the letter or spirit of 
 this clause, he shall be discharged. 
 
 At any mine where a majority of the 
 miners so desire, they may select and 
 pay their own shot flrers, provided that 
 It shall not shorten their working hours. 
 But under no circumstances shall the 
 operators be required to hire or pay 
 any shot flrers. 
 
 (b) The system of paying for coal be- 
 fore screening was Intended to obvlatfe 
 the many contentions incident to the 
 use of screens, and was not Intended to 
 encourage unworkmanlike methods of 
 mining* and blasting coal, or to decrease 
 the proportion of screened lump, and the 
 operators are hereby guaranteed the 
 hearty support and .co-operation of the 
 United Mine Workers of America in 
 disciplining any miner who from Ig- 
 norance or carelessness or other cause 
 fails to properly mine, shoot and load 
 his coal. 
 
 6th. In case slate, bone, sulphur, or 
 other impurities are sent up by the 
 miner It shall be the duty of the trim- 
 mer of the car, or any Inspector that 
 the operator may appoint, to announce 
 the same to the company's welghman 
 and the designated representative of 
 the miners, and the miner so offending 
 shall for the first offense be suspended 
 for one, day or fined one dollar; for the 
 second oifense he shall be suspended 
 for three working days or fined two 
 dollars; for the third and each subse- 
 quent O'fflense occurring In any one 
 month he shall be suspended, discharged 
 or fined four dollars; provided, that in 
 malicious or aggravated cases the oper- 
 ator shall have the right to suspend or 
 discharge for the first or any subse- 
 
Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 quent offense. Any miner abusing or 
 seeking- to embarrass the trimmer or in- 
 spector for performing his duty shall 
 be fined three dollars or discharged. 
 All impurities picked out by the car 
 trimmer shall be weighed at regular 
 Intervals and the regular mining price 
 thereupon, plus 50 cents per ton for 
 handling the same, shall be charged 
 against the penalty fund and the re- 
 mainder of the proceeds of the fines 
 shall be paid to the state officers of the 
 United Mine "Workers and by them put 
 into the fund they maintain for the 
 benefit of the widows and orphans of 
 men killed In or about the mines; and 
 if such penalty fund shall be insuf- 
 ficient to pay said operator for the 
 mining of said impurities at the ton- 
 nage price plus 50 Cents per ton to 
 cover the cost of handling same, such 
 deficit shall be charged against the 
 checkweighmen's fund. Under no cir- 
 cumstances shall fines be remitted or 
 refunded by the miners' organization. 
 
 The penalties provided in this section 
 (six) may at aJl timee be imposed at 
 the option of the operator or his rep- 
 resentative; and the option of deter- 
 mining whether the penalty shall be a 
 fine, suspension or discharge, as here- 
 in prescribed, shall also be vested in 
 the operator or his representative. 
 
 The assent of said designated repre- 
 sentative of the miners is not essential 
 to the imposition of said penalties and 
 his inspection shall in no wise impede 
 the operation of the mine. 
 
 7th. The miners of the state of Illi- 
 nois are to be paid twice a month, the 
 dates of pay to be determined locally, 
 but in no event shall more than one- 
 half month's pay be retained by the 
 <Kperator. When the men locally so de- 
 mand, statements will be issued to all 
 employes not less than twenty-four 
 hours prior to pay day. No commis- 
 sions will be charged for money ad- 
 vanced between pay days, but any ad- 
 vances between pay days shall be at the 
 option of the operator. 
 
 Sth. The price for powder per keg 
 shall be $2.00 — the miners agree to pur- 
 chase their powder from their opera- 
 tors, provided it is furnished of stand- 
 ard grade and quality; that to be deter- 
 mined by the I operators and expert 
 miners jointly where there is a differ- 
 ence. 
 
 9th. The price for blacksmithing at 
 all mines shall be one and one-fourth 
 per cent of the gross earnings of the 
 men. 
 
 10th. It is understood that there is 
 no agreement as to the price of oil. 
 
 11th. The inside day wage scale au- 
 thorized by the present agreements, i. 
 e., the Columbus scale 'of 1898, plus an 
 advance of twenty per cent., shall be 
 the scale under this agreement, viz.: 
 
 Tracklayers ,..'■...$2.28 
 
 Tracklayers' helpers 2.10 
 
 Trappers 1.00 
 
 Bottom cagers 2.10 
 
 Drivers 2.10 
 
 Trip riders ?2.10 
 
 Water haulers 2.10 
 
 Timbermen, where such are em- 
 ployed , 2.28 
 
 Pipemen, for compressed air 
 plants 2.22 
 
 Co. men in lone-wall mines of 
 third vein district. Northern Il- 
 linois 2.10 
 
 All other inside day labor 2.10 
 
 The above schedule of day wages ap- 
 plies only to men employed in the per^ 
 formance of their labor, and does not 
 apply to boys unless they can .do and 
 are employed to do a man's work. 
 
 12th. The scale of mining prices 
 herein provide(^ is based upon an eight- 
 hour work day, and it is definitely un- 
 derstood that this shall mean eight 
 hours' work at the face, exclusive of 
 noon time, six days ,a week, or forty- 
 eight hours in the week, provided the 
 operator desires the men to work, and 
 whether the shaft is actually hoisting 
 or not, and no local ruling shall in any 
 way affect this agreement or impose 
 conditions affecting the same. 
 
 No miner shall fire any shots before 
 the close of the shift where it is the 
 rule to fire once a day, or before the 
 close of each half shift at mines where 
 it is the rule to fire twice a day; and 
 the option of deciding whether the fir- 
 ing shall be once or twice a day shall 
 be with the operator. 
 
 The mine shall work or not at the 
 option ot the operator, and no local 
 rule or condition such as prescribing 
 the exact number of railroad cars or 
 the precise switch on which they shall 
 be placed shall Interfere with this 
 right. 
 
 Any class of day labor may be paid 
 at the option of the operator for the 
 number of hours and fractions thereof 
 actually worked, at an hour rate based 
 on one-eighth of the scale rate per day. 
 Provided, however, that when the men 
 go into the mine in the morning they 
 shall be entitled to two hours' pay 
 whether the mine hoists coal twoi hours 
 or not, except in the event that they 
 voluntarily leave their work during this 
 time without the consent of the oper- 
 ator, or in case the mine is thrown idle 
 or the work impeded on account of fail- 
 ure of any members of the union to re- 
 port for work, they shall forfeit such 
 two hours' pay. Provided, further, 
 that overtime by day laborers when 
 necessary to supply railroad chutes 
 with coal by night or Sunday, where 
 no regular men therefor are exclusively 
 employed, or when necessary in the 
 judgment of the operator in order not 
 to Impede the operation of the mine the 
 day following, and for the work which 
 cannot be performed or completed by 
 the regular shift during regular hours 
 without impeding the operation of the 
 mine, may be performed and paid for 
 at the same rate per hour. 
 
 13th. (a) The duties of the pit com- 
 mittee shall be confined to the adjust- 
 ment of disputes between the pit boss 
 
8 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION, FEBRUARY 25. 
 
 and any of the members of the United 
 Mine "Workers of America working in 
 and around the mine, for whom a scale 
 is made, arising out of this agreement 
 or anv sub-district agreement made in 
 connection herewith, where the pit boss 
 and said miner or mine laborer have 
 failed to agree. 
 
 (b) In case of any local trouble aris- 
 ing at any shaft through such failure 
 to agree between the pit boss and any 
 miner or mine laborer, the pit commit- 
 tee and the miners' local president and 
 the pit boss are empowered to adjust 
 it; and in the case of their disagree- 
 ment it shall be referred to the super- 
 intendent of the company and the pres- 
 ident lof the miners' local executive 
 board, where such exists, and shall they 
 fail to adjust it— and in all other cases 
 —it shall be referred to the superin- 
 tendent of the company and the miners' 
 president of the sub-district; and 
 should they fail to adjust it, it shall 
 be referred in writing to the officials 
 of the company concerned and the state 
 officials of the TJ. M. W. of A. for ad- 
 justment; and in all such cases the 
 miners and mine laborers and parties 
 Involved must continue at work pending 
 an investigation and adjustment until a 
 final decision ,is reached in the manner 
 above set forth. 
 
 (c) If any day men refuse to continue 
 at work because of a grievance which 
 has or has not been taken up for ad- 
 justment in the manner provided here- 
 in, and such action shall seem likely to 
 Impede the operation of the mine, or if 
 any day men shall fall to report for 
 duty on account of sickness or from 
 any other cause and the same is likely 
 to impede the operation of the mine, 
 the pit committee shall immediately 
 furnish a man or men to take such 
 vacant place or places at the scale 
 rate, in order that the mine may con- 
 tinue at work; and it shall be the duty 
 of any member or members of the 
 United Mine Workers who may be 
 called upon by the pit boss or pit com- 
 mittee to immediately take the place 
 or places assigned to him or them in 
 pursuance hereof. 
 
 (d) The pit committee in the dis- 
 charge of its duties shall under no cir- 
 cumstance go around the mine for any 
 cause whatever unless called upon by 
 the pit boss or by a miner or company 
 man who may have a grievance that he 
 cannot settle with the boss; and as its 
 duties are confined to the adjustment 
 of any such grievances, it is under- 
 stood that its members shall not draw 
 any compensation except while actively 
 engaged in the discharge of said du- 
 ties. Any pit committee man who shall 
 support or attempt to execute any rule 
 or proceeding in cpnflict with any pro- 
 vision of this contract, 'or who shall as- 
 sume any function as committee man 
 not specifically set forth herein, shall 
 be forthwith deposed as committee man 
 and discharged by the company. The 
 foregoing shall not be construed to 
 
 prohibit the pit committee from look- 
 ing after the matter of membership 
 dues and initiations in any proper man- 
 ner. 
 
 (e) Members of the pit committee em- 
 ployed as day men shall not leave their 
 places during working hours except by 
 permission of the operator, or in cases 
 involving the stoppage of the mine. 
 
 (f) The right to hire and discharge, 
 the management of the mine and the 
 direction of the working force, are 
 vested exclusively in the operator, and 
 the U. M. W. of A. shall not abridge 
 this right by listing applicants for em- 
 ployment or otherwise. If any em- 
 ploye shall be suspended or discharged 
 by the company and it is claimed that 
 an injustice has been done him, an in- 
 vestigation to be conducted by the 
 parties and in the manner set forth in 
 paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section 
 shall be taken up promptly, and if it is 
 proven that an injustice has been done, 
 the operator shall reinstate said em- 
 ploye and pay him full compensation 
 for the time he has been suspended and 
 out of employment; provided, if no de- 
 cision shall be rendered within five 
 days the case shall be considered 
 closed insofar as compensation Is con- 
 cerned. 
 
 14th. If anv mine is thrown idle by 
 reason of the refusal of any members 
 of the United Mine Workers to con- 
 tinue their regular work, or by reason 
 of such members absenting themselves 
 from work, whether on account of any 
 specific grievance in process or adjudi- 
 cation, as provided In this agreement, 
 or otherwise, the check off provided for 
 in paragraph 15 of this contract shall 
 be discontinued at that mine for the 
 remainder of the scale year — and that 
 without prejudice to the operator, and 
 the local to which said members belong 
 shall pay to the operator of said mine 
 an amount equal to ten cents per ton 
 on the average daily output of the mine 
 for each day of such enforced suspen- 
 sion, such amount to be retained by 
 said operator as agreed and liquidated 
 damages by said operator sustained 
 on account of such suspension, and 
 said operator is hereby authorized to 
 deduct the ampunt accruing on account 
 of any such damages from any funds 
 he may then or thereafter hold belong- 
 ing to said Ideal union; but In any 
 event the United Mine Workers of 
 America, District No. 12 guarantee the 
 amount of said damages and will see 
 the same fully paid within thirty days 
 after the beginning of such suspension. 
 
 15th. The operators will recognize 
 the pit committee in the discharge of 
 its duties as herein specified, but not 
 otherwise, and agree to check off union 
 dues, assessments and fines levied un- 
 der the provisions of this agreement, 
 from the miners and mine laborers, 
 when desired, on proper Individual or 
 collective continuous order, and when 
 such collections are made card days 
 shall be abolished. 
 
Aftkrnoon Session, February 25. 
 
 16th. (a) The scale of prices herein 
 provided shall Include, except In extra- 
 ordinary conditions, the work required 
 to load coal and properly timber the 
 working places in the mine, and the op- 
 erator shall be required to furnish the 
 necessary props and timber in rooms 
 or working face. And in long wall 
 mines it shall Include the proper min- 
 ing of the coal and the brushing and 
 care of the working places and road- 
 way according to the present method 
 and rules relating thereto, which shall 
 continue unchanged. 
 
 (b) If any miner shall fail to properly 
 timber and care for his working place, 
 and such failure shall entail falls of 
 slate, rock and the like, or if by reck- 
 less or improper shooting of the coal 
 in room and pillar mines, the mine 
 props or other timbers shall be dis- 
 turbed or unnecessary falls result, the 
 miner whose fault has occasioned auch 
 damage shall repair the same without 
 compensation; and if such miner fails 
 to repair such damage he shall be dis- 
 charged. 
 
 In cases where the mine manager di- 
 rects the placing of cross-bars to per*- 
 manently secure the roadway, then, 
 and in such cases only, the miner shall 
 be paid at the current price for each 
 cross-bar when properly set. 
 
 The above does not contemplate any 
 change from the ordinary method of 
 timbering by the miner for his own 
 safety. 
 
 (c) It is understood that the interpre- 
 tation of the 16th clause In reference 
 to the room and pillar mines, agreed to 
 T)y President Mitchell and Commission- 
 er Justi and dated April 27th, 1901, is 
 accepted as the interpretation of this 
 section, and said interpretation is here- 
 hy made a part of this agreement. 
 
 17th. The wages now being paid out- 
 side day labor at the various mines in 
 this state shall constitute the wage 
 scale for that class of labor during the 
 life of this agreement; provided, that 
 no top man shall receive less than $1.80 
 per day. 
 
 18th. In the event of an Instantan- 
 eous death by accident in the mine, the 
 •miners and underground employes shall 
 have the privilege of discontinuing 
 work for the remainder of that day, but 
 work, at the option of the operator, 
 shall be resumed the day following, 
 and continue thereafter. In case the 
 operator elects to operate' the mine on 
 the day of the funeral of the deceased 
 as above, or where death has resulted 
 from an accident in the mine, individ- 
 ual miners and underground employes 
 may at their option absent themselves 
 from work for the purpose of attending 
 such funeral, but not otherwise. And 
 in the event that the operator shall 
 elect to operate the mine on the day 
 of such funeral, then from the pro- 
 ceeds of such day's operation each 
 member of the LT. M. W. of A. em- 
 ployed at the mine at which the de- 
 ceased member was employed shall 
 
 contribute fifty cents and the 
 ■operator $25.00 for the benefit of the 
 family of the deceased or his legal rep- 
 resentatives, to be collected through 
 the office of the company. Except in 
 case of fa:tal accidents, as above, the 
 mine shall in no case be thrown Idle 
 because of any death or funeral; but 
 In the case of the death of any employe 
 of the company or member of his fam- 
 ily, any individual miner may, at his 
 option, absent himself from work for 
 the sake of attending such funeral, but 
 not otherwise. 
 
 19th. The operators shall have the 
 right in cases of emergency work, or 
 ordinary repairs to the plant, to em- 
 ploy in connection therewith such 'men 
 as in their judgment are best ac- 
 quainted with and suited to the work to 
 be performed, or bring in outside me- 
 chanics or other labor not regularly 
 employed at the mine, under contract 
 or other private arrangement; provid- 
 ed, it shall not interfere with or dis- 
 place men regularly employed for such 
 work. Blacksmiths and other skilled 
 labor shall make any necessary re- 
 pairs to machinery and boilers. 
 
 20th. The sinking of shafts, erection 
 of head frames, buildings, scales, ma- 
 chinery, railroad switches, etc., neces- 
 sary for the completion of a plant to 
 hoist coal; all being in the nature of 
 construction work, are to be excluded 
 from the jurisdiction of the United 
 Mine Workers of Ame)?ica. Extensive 
 repairs to or rebuilding the same class 
 of work shall also be included in the 
 same exception. 
 
 21st. Where any employe absents 
 himself from his work for a period of 
 one day, unless through sickness or by 
 first having notified the mine manager 
 and obtained his consent, he shall be 
 discharged. 
 
 22d. The differential for machine 
 mining having been fixed at ten cents 
 per ton less than the pick mining rate 
 at Danville, the basing point, the same 
 differential shall apply throughout the 
 balance of the state, and such rate 
 shall include the snubbing of the coal 
 by wedge and sledge where chain ma- 
 chines are used, but It Is understood 
 that this condition shall not apply 
 where two men have and work in one 
 place only, in the ^ame shift, except at 
 the option of the miner. 
 
 The division of the machine mining 
 price shall remain In the same propor- 
 tions as at present, except that at the 
 chain machine mines in Williamson 
 county the machine rate shall divide 
 allowing (6) cents per ton to runner 
 and helper; and In Peoria and Pulton 
 counties the machine rate shall divide 
 33 cents for loading, 7 cents for runner, 
 6 cents for second man. 
 
 The established rates on shearing 
 machines ajid air or electric drills as 
 now existing, shall remain unchanged 
 during the ensuing year. 
 
 23d. Any underground employe not 
 on hand so as to go down to his work 
 
10 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 before the hour for commencing: work 
 shall not be entitled to go below except 
 at the convenience of the company. 
 When an employe Is sick or Injured, he 
 shall be given a cag-e at once. When 
 a cag'e load of men comes to the bot- 
 tom of the shaft, who have been pre- 
 vented from working by reason of falls 
 or other things over which they have 
 no control, they shall be given a cage 
 at once. For the accommodation of in- 
 dividual employes, less than a cage 
 load, who have been prevented from 
 working, as above, a cage shall be run 
 mid-forenoon and mid-afternoon of 
 each working day; provided, however, 
 that the foregoing shall not be per- 
 mitted to enable men to leave their 
 work for other than the reasons stated 
 above. 
 
 24th. All classes of day labor are to 
 work full eight hours, and the going to 
 and coming from the respective work- 
 ing places is to be done on the day 
 hand's own time. All company men 
 shall perform whatever day labor the 
 foreman may direct. An eight-hour 
 day means eight hours' Work in the 
 mines at the usual working places, ex- 
 clusive of noon time, for all classes of 
 inside day labor. This shall be exclus- 
 ive of the time required in reaching 
 such working places in the morning 
 and departing from same at night. 
 There shall be no rules in regard to 
 shot firing which will prevent the day 
 men from working the full eight hours. 
 Drivers shall take their mules to and 
 from the stables, and the time required 
 in so doing shall not include any part 
 of the day's labor, their time beginning 
 when they reach- the change at which 
 they receive empty cars— that is, the 
 parting-drivers at the shaft bottom, 
 and the inside drivers at the parting— 
 and ending at the same places; but in 
 no ease shall a.driver's time be docked 
 while he is waiting for such cars at the 
 points named. The inside drivers, at 
 their option, may either walk to and 
 from the parting or take with them 
 without compensation either loaded or 
 empty cars, to enable them to ride. 
 This provision, however, shall not pre- 
 vent the inside drivers from bringing 
 to and taking from the bottom regular 
 trips, if so directed by the operator, 
 provided such work is done within the 
 eight hours. 
 
 The methods at present existing cov- 
 ering the harnessing, unharnessing, 
 feedmg and oaring for the mules shall 
 be continued at all shafts throughout 
 the scale year beginning April 1, 1902. 
 
 25th. The companies shall keep the 
 mines in as dry a condition as prac- 
 ticable by keeping the water off the 
 roads and out of the working places. 
 
 26th. All operators shall keep suf- 
 ficient blankets, oil, bandages, etc., and 
 provide suitable ambulance or convey- 
 ances at all mines to properly convey 
 injured persons to their homes after an 
 accident. 
 27th. The operators shall see that an . 
 
 equal turn is offered each miner, and 
 that he be given a fair chance to ob- 
 tain the same. The checkweighmari 
 shall keep a turn bulletin for the turn 
 keepers' guidance. The drivers shall 
 be subject to whomever the mine man- 
 ager shall designate as tumkeeper, in 
 pursuance hereof. 
 
 In mines where there is both band 
 and machine mining, an equal turn 
 shall mean approximately the same 
 turn to each man in the machine part 
 of the mine, and approximately the 
 same turn to each man doing hajid 
 work; but not necessarily the same to 
 each hand miner as to each man 
 working with the machines. 
 
 28th. The operators shall comply 
 with the state law in regard to employ- 
 ing of miners and mine laborers, but 
 under no cirfcumstances shall an initi- 
 ation fee in excess of five dollars be 
 charged for or circumstances shall an 
 initiation fee be imposed as to the em- 
 ployment of men for whom working 
 places are furnished, nor shall the U. 
 M. W. of A., District No. 12, attempt 
 to judge as to the qualifications of any 
 man seeking employment, as this mat- 
 ter is entirely covered by the state law. 
 29th. This contract is in no case to 
 be set aside because of any rules of the 
 U. M. W. of A. now in force <jr which 
 may hereafter be adopted; nor is this 
 contract to be set aside by reason of 
 any provision in their national, state 
 or local constitutions. 
 
 30th. There shall be no demands 
 made locally that are not specifically 
 set forth in this agreement, or spe- 
 cifically covered in existing subdistrict 
 or local agreements; provided, that 
 such subdistrict or local agreements 
 must be in harmony with this contract, 
 otherwise any conflicting portions shall 
 be void and the terms of this contract 
 shall govern. 
 
 Mr. Heftl read the scale proposed 
 by the miners, as follows: 
 
 MINERS' SCALE. 
 
 Whereas, a contract between the 
 operators of the competitive coal fields 
 of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and 
 Illinois and the United Mine Workers 
 of America has been entered into at the 
 city of Indianapolis, Ind., February 9, 
 1902, by which the present scale of 
 prices at the basic points as fixed by the 
 agreement made in Columbus, O., Feb- 
 ruary 9, 1901, is continued In force and 
 effect for one year from April 1, 1902, to 
 March 31, 1903, inclusive, and 
 
 Whereas, this contract fixes the hand 
 mining price of bituminous mine-run 
 coal at Danville at 49 cents per ton of 
 2,000 pounds, therefore, be it 
 
 Resolved, that the prices for hand 
 mmed coal throughout the state for one 
 year, beginning April 1, 1902, shall be 
 as follows: 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 Streator, Clarke City, Kangley, in- 
 cluding Toluca and Cardiff thick vein. 
 
AFTERNOON SESSION, FEBRUARY 25. 
 
 11 
 
 6S cents. All coal four feet and under, 
 6S cents; the minimum helsrht to be 
 three feet. 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, WH- 
 mington and associated mines, Pontiac, 
 Cardiff longwall, including' Streator and 
 Bloomington thin veins, 81 cents. In- 
 cluding twenty-four inches brushing. 
 
 Cross roads and headings 10 9-10 cents 
 extra. 
 
 Bloomington thick vein, 71 cents. 
 
 Pontlao top vein, 58 cents. Corcoran 
 mine, $1.10, with third vein conditions 
 
 SECOND DISTRICT. 
 Danville, "Westvllle, Grape iCreek and 
 associated mines in Vermilion county, 
 4U cents. 
 
 THIRD DISTRICT. 
 Springfield and associated mines, 49.7 
 cents. 
 
 Lincoln, Neautic and Colfax, 54.7 , 
 cents. 
 
 FOURTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mines on C. & A. south lOf Spring- 
 field, to and Including Carlinsville, in- 
 cluding Taylorville, Pana, HlUsboro, 
 Witt (Paisley), Divernon and Pawnee, 
 49 cents. ' 
 
 Litchfield, 49 cents. Coal five fdet 
 thick and under, 54 cents; shall also 
 apply to C. & A. district. 
 
 Coal four feet and under to be con- 
 sidered deflclenl work. Also men to 
 work single in coal four feet and under. 
 
 Assumption long wall, under regula- 
 tions of third vein field, 65% cents. 
 
 Each additional foot of brushing to 
 be paid 7% cents per ton extra. 
 
 The price for Assumption shall in- 
 clude dynamite, powder, fuse, caps and 
 squibs to be furnished by the company 
 to the miner when brushing rock. 
 
 Moweaqua, room and pillar, 54.7 
 cents. 
 
 Mt. Pulaski, room and pillar, 66 cents 
 
 Decatur, 64 cents. Raymond, 74 cent.^. 
 Including 12-inch brushing. 
 
 FIFTH DISTRICT. 
 Glen Carbon, Belleville and associated 
 mines, to and including Pinckneyville, 
 Willisville and Nashville, 49 cents; Ger- 
 miantown, 54 cents. 
 
 SIXTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Duquoin, Odin, Sandoval, Centralla 
 and associated mines, 45 cents. 
 
 Salem, 50 cents. Kinmundy room and 
 pillar, 50 cents. 
 
 Kinmundy, long wall, under third 
 vein regulations, 65 cents. Coal to be 
 mined in clay or coal at option of miner. 
 
 SEVENTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mt. Vernon, 50 cents. 
 
 No. 1, 3 and 4, Gartside, 60 cents, in- 
 cluding 14-inch brushing (for bottom 
 bench). Pools mine, 85 cents. Schnut 
 Gall, 75 cents, with present conditions. 
 
 Jacksdn county, 45 cents. 
 
 Saline county, 45 cents. 
 
 Williamson county, 45 cents. 
 
 Gallatin county, 45 cents. 
 
 EIGHTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, thin or 
 lower vein, third vein conditions, 81 
 cents. 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties. No. 5 
 vein, 56 cents. 
 
 Astoria, No. 5 vein, Fulton and Peoria 
 counties conditions, 56 cents. 
 
 Pekin, 62% cents. 
 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock, 60 cents. Goal 
 3% to 3 feet, 65 cents per ton; coal 3 to 
 2% feet, 75 cents per ton. Price for coal 
 under 2% feet be referred to mine com- 
 mittee and mine manager for settle- 
 ment. 
 
 Cable, Sherard and Blossombuvg, 
 Coal Valley loading and associated 
 mines, 60 cents, with same conditions 
 as Gilchrist and Wanlock. 
 
 Kewanee, Etherly and Norrls, 66 
 cents. 
 
 NINTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mt. Olive, Staunton, Gillespie, Clyde, 
 Sorento and Coffieen and mines on the 
 Vandalia line as far east as and in- 
 cluding Colllnsville and associated 
 mines, 49 cents. 
 
 Troy, 54 cents, and on the B. & O. 
 S. W., as far east as Breese, 49 cents. 
 Lebanon and Trenton, 54 cents. 
 
 RESOLUTIONS. 
 
 No. 1 — The above rate shall include 
 the laying and maintenance of all track 
 in all working places, up to the face by 
 the operators, and all mine cars shall 
 have closed ends. 
 
 No. 2 — All shots shall be fired by shot- 
 firers employed by the company. 
 
 No. 3 — No pcale of wages shall oo 
 made by the United Mine Workers for 
 mine mankger, mine manager's assis- 
 tant, top foreman, company weighman, 
 boss drivers, night boss, head ma- 
 chinist, head boiler maker, head car- 
 penter, night watchman. It being un- 
 derstood that "assistant" shall apply to 
 such as are authorized to act in that 
 capacity only. The authority to hire 
 and discharge shall be vested in the 
 mine manager, top foreman and boss 
 driver. It is further understood and 
 agree^ that the night watchman shall 
 be exempt when employed in that ca- 
 pacity only. 
 
 No. 4 — The scale of prices for mining 
 per ton of 2,000 pounds run-of-mine ^--oal 
 herein provided for, is Understood in 
 every case to be for coal loaded in cais 
 at the face, weighed before screening; 
 and that the practice of pushing coal 
 by the miners shall be prohibited. 
 
 No. 5 — The system of paying for coal 
 before screening was intended to ob- 
 viate the many contentions incident to 
 the use of screens, and was not in- 
 tended to encourage unworkmanlilke 
 methods of blasting coal, or to decrease 
 the proportion of screened lump, and 
 the operators are hereby guaranteed 
 the hearty support and co-operation of 
 the United Mine Workers of America 
 in disciplining any miner who from ig- 
 
12 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 norance or carelessness or other cause 
 falls to properly shoot and load his 
 coal. 
 
 No. 6— The miners of the state of Illi- 
 nois are to be paid twice a month, the 
 •dates of pay to be determined locally, 
 but in no event shall more than one-half 
 month's pay be retained by the oper- 
 ator. Statements shall be issued to all 
 employes not less than twenty-four 
 hours prior to pay day. No commis- 
 sions will be charged for money ad- 
 yanced between pay days, but any ad- 
 vances between pay days shall be at 
 the option of the operator. 
 
 No. 7 — The price for blacksmithing 
 shall be four-tenths of a cent per ton 
 for room and pillar work, and eightepn 
 cents per month per man in long-wall 
 mines for pick and drill-sharpening 
 This shall not apply to machine miners. 
 
 No. 8 — The inside day wage scale au- 
 thorized by the present agreements, 1. 
 «., the Columbus scale of 1898, plus an 
 advance of 20 per cent, shall be the 
 scale under this agreement; but In no 
 case shall less than $2.10 be paid for 
 drivers. 
 
 No. 9 — The above scale of mining 
 prices is based upon an eight-hour work 
 day, and it is definitely understood that 
 this shall mean eight hours' work at 
 the face, six days a week, or forty- 
 eight hours in the week, provided the 
 mine desires to work, and no local rul- 
 ing shall in any way affect this agree- 
 ment or Impose conditions affecting the 
 same. 
 
 No. 10 — Any class of day labor may be 
 paid at the option of the operator for 
 the number of hours and fractions ac- 
 tually worked, at an hour rate based on 
 one-eighth of the scale rate per rta.y. 
 Provided, however,' that when the men 
 go into the mine in the morning they 
 shall be entitled to two hours' pay 
 whether the mine hoists coal two hours 
 or not, except in the event that ttiey 
 voluntarily leave their work during this 
 time without the consent of the oper- 
 ator they shall forfeit such two hours' 
 pay. Provided, further, that overtime 
 by day laborers when necessary to sup- 
 ply railroad chutes with coal by nignt 
 oi Sunday, where no regular men there- 
 for are exclusively employed, or when 
 necessary in order not to impede the 
 operation of the mine the day following, 
 and for work which cannot be per- 
 formed or completed by the regular 
 shift during regular hours without im- 
 peding the operation of the mine, m.ay 
 be performed and paid for at the rate 
 of time and one-half. 
 
 No. 11— (a) The duties of the pit com- 
 mittee shall be confined to the adjust- 
 ment of disputes between the pit boss 
 and any of the members of the United 
 Mine Workers of America workiuj; in 
 and around the mine, for whom a scale 
 is made, arising out of this agreement 
 or any sub-district agreement maide In 
 connection herewith, or state mining 
 law, where the pit boss and said miner 
 or mine laborer have failed to agree. 
 
 (b) In case of any local trouble aris- 
 ing at any shaft through such failure 
 to agree between the pit boss and any 
 miner or mine laborer, the pit com- 
 mittee and the miners, local president 
 and the pit boss are empowered to ad- 
 just it; and in the case of th.eir dis- 
 agreement it shall be referred to the 
 superintendent of the company and the 
 president of the miners' local executive 
 board, where such exists, and shall they 
 fail to adjust it— and in all other cases 
 —it shall be referred to the superin- 
 tendent of the company and the miners' 
 president of the sub-district; and 
 should they fail to adjust It, it shall be 
 referred in writing to the ofliclals of 
 the company concerned and the state 
 officials of the U. M. TV. of A. for ad- 
 justment; and in all such cases the 
 miners and mine laborers and parties 
 involved must continue at work pend- 
 ing an investigation 'and adjustment, 
 ten days being allowed for a final de- 
 cision to be reached. 
 
 (c) If any day men refuse to continue 
 at work because of a grievance which 
 has or has not been taken up for ad- 
 
 . justment in the manner provided here- 
 in, and such action shall seem likely 
 to impede operation of the mine, the pit 
 committee shall immediately furnish a 
 man or men to take such vacant place 
 or places at the scale rate, in order that 
 the mine may continue at work; and It 
 shall be the duty of any member or 
 members of the United Mine Workers 
 who may be called upon by the pit boss 
 or pit committee to immediately taks 
 the place or places assigned to him or 
 them in pursuance hereof. 
 
 No. 12 — The operators will recognlae 
 the pit committee in the discharge of Its 
 duties as herein specified, but not other- 
 wise, and agree to check off union dues 
 and assessments from the miners and 
 mine laborers, when desired, on the in- 
 dividual or collective continuous order 
 prepared by the attorneys represent- 
 ing both the miners and the operators, 
 as at present existing, and furnish an 
 itemized account of the same, and waen 
 such union dues and assessments ar<» 
 collected through the office, card d ly 
 shall be abolished. 
 
 No. 13— (a) Except at the basing 
 point, Danville, the differential for ma- 
 chine mining throughout the state of 
 Illinois shall be seven cents per ion 
 less than the pick mining rate. It 
 being understood and agreed that the 
 machine mining rate shall include the 
 snubbing of coal either by powder or 
 wedge and sledges as condition may 
 warrant, where chain machine is used; 
 but it is understood that this condition 
 shall not apply where two men nave 
 and work in one place only in the same 
 shaft, except at the ontion of the miner; 
 and it shall also be optional with the 
 miner which system of snubbing sha'l 
 be followed. The division of the ma- 
 chine mining price shall be fixed by 
 sub-districts 
 
Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 13 
 
 (b) The established rates on shearing 
 machines and air or electric drills na 
 now existing-, shall remain unchanged 
 during the ensuing year. 
 
 No. 14 — Any underground employe not 
 on hand so as to go down to his work 
 before the hour for commencing work 
 shall not be entitled to go below ex;-ipt 
 at the convenience of the ccympany. 
 When an employe is sick or injured, ne 
 shall be given a cage at once. Whsn a 
 cage load of men comes to the bottom 
 of the shaft, who have been preventfd 
 from workinff by reason of falls or 
 other things over which they have no 
 control, they shall be given a cage at 
 once. For the accommodation of indi- 
 vidual "employes, less than a cage load, 
 who have been prevented from working 
 as above, a cage shall be run mid- core- 
 noon, noon and mid-afternoon of each 
 working day; provided, however, tJiat 
 the foregoing shall not be permitted to 
 enable men to leave their work for 
 other than the reason stated above. 
 
 No. 15 — The companies shall keep ihe 
 mines in a dry condition by keeping the 
 water off the roads and out of the 
 working places. 
 
 No. 16 — ^All operators shall keep suffi- 
 cient blankets, oil, bandages; etc., and 
 suitable ambulances or conveyances at 
 each mine to properly convey Injured 
 persons to their homes after an acci- 
 dent. 
 
 No. 17 — The operators shall see that 
 an equal turn is offered each miner and 
 mine laborer, and that he be given a 
 fair chance to obtain the same. The 
 checkweighman shall keep a turn bul- 
 letin for the iturn keeper's guidance. 
 The drivers shall be subject to whom- 
 ever the mine manager shall desigaatf: 
 as turn keeper, in pursuance thereof. 
 
 No. 18 — The maximum price of pow- 
 der shall be $1.75 per keg where powder 
 is purchased from the company. Tne 
 miners shall have the right to purchase 
 powder in open market if they desire. 
 
 TOP DAT WAGE SCALE. 
 
 Blacksmith foreman ?3 CO 
 
 Blacksmith 2 70 
 
 Blacksmith helper :i 10 
 
 Dynamo Men ? 40 
 
 Dumpers 2 28 
 
 Firemen " 3'' 
 
 Engine coalers 2 10 
 
 Empty eager J 10 
 
 Car trimmer 2 10 
 
 Band or sulphur picker 1 20 
 
 Self-dumping cagers 2 10 
 
 Carpenters 2 70 
 
 Sinkers 3 70 
 
 Shift leaders 3 00 
 
 Car-pullers 2 10 
 
 Teamsters 192 
 
 Team and teamsters 'i 5ff 
 
 Box car shovelers 2 10 
 
 Elevator boys 1 20 
 
 Rock-dump engineers 2 25 
 
 Box car loader men 2 10 
 
 All other outside day labor 1 89 
 
 UNDERGROUND DAT SCALE. 
 
 Mine examiner $2 70 
 
 Mule feeder 2 50 
 
 Motormen 3 00 
 
 Gripers 2 25 
 
 Tail-rope engineers 2 50 
 
 Machine repairers 'i 70 
 
 Switch thrower 1 50 
 
 Line and wire men 2 40 
 
 Rope splicers /, ''5 
 
 Shot flrers 3 50 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— Tou now have 
 before you the propositions of the re- 
 spective sides. What is the pleasure 
 of the meeting? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move the adop- 
 tion of the miners' scale as read. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 On this motion the operators voted 
 No and the miners voted Tes, and the 
 motion was declared lost. 
 ' MR. TATLOR: —I move the adop- 
 tion of the scale as read by the opera- 
 tors. (Seconded.) 
 
 On this motion the operators voted 
 Tes, tjie miners voted No, and it was 
 declared lost. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— I be- 
 lieve the first thing to do is to get the 
 scales into shape so that they can be 
 , looked over. I move that we adjourn 
 until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning so 
 that printed copies of both scales can 
 be distributed to everyone present. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— The chair will 
 take great pleasure in putting any mo- 
 tion before \the house. I think the 
 scales should both be in shape, that 
 they may be considered either here or 
 before the scale committee. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not in favor 
 of adjourning. I think we ought to take 
 up one of the scales and consider it. I 
 therefore move that the miners' scale 
 be taken up and considered seriatim. 
 We have copies of that scale here, and 
 1 think it would be best to begin on 
 that. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— Mr. Chairman and 
 Gentlemen: When the operators left 
 Indianapolis they had hoped to find the 
 miners at home prepared to renew last 
 year's prices in all the districts of this 
 .state; that no attempt would be made 
 to change either prices or conditions to 
 put Illinois still further out of line with 
 our eastern competitors. The scale you 
 have presented here has made an at- 
 tempt in many cases to raise the cost 
 of producing coal to the operators. The 
 operators of Illinois have taken the 
 stand in the last four interstate meet- 
 ings that we wasted our time largely 
 in attending those meetings, inasmuch 
 as they fixed the price at Danville and 
 sent Illinois back to have prices put 
 upon their product in the several dis- 
 tricts of the state which were entirely 
 out of line with the other states. We 
 believe we are right in this contention. 
 , In the First district of Illinois more 
 coal is produced than in the entire 
 state of Indiana, and there is more coal 
 unsettled when we leave the interstate 
 convention than is produced in Penn- 
 
14 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 sylvania. "We don't think It is fair to 
 you delegates or to the operators to 
 have to meet and spend two or three 
 weeks each year discussing the same 
 differentials In the state. We are per- 
 fectly willing to take up and discuss 
 the natural changes in the mining rate. 
 I believe the interstate movement is the 
 best thing that has ever been taken up 
 between labor and capital. I think it 
 has done more to bring us together on 
 sensible business lines than any move- 
 ment ever inaugurated. I am not ob- 
 jecting to that. "What I am objecting 
 to is that in the interstate meeting we 
 only fix the rate for about a million 
 tons of our product and leave the other 
 twenty-five million tons without a rate 
 being fixed. If after Ohio signed the 
 scale and went home you attempted to 
 raise them three cents it would disrupt 
 the movement at once. That is the 
 reason why I say Illinois is in a most 
 peculiar position In the interstate 
 movement. We labored hard and earn- 
 estly at the last interstate convention 
 to have the prices fixed in Ohio, Indi- 
 ana. Pennsylvania and all the districts 
 in Illinois. I don't think the opera- 
 tors will consider anything favorably, 
 or will make any contract with you, 
 which increases the cost of their coal 
 one cent or one part of a cent in any 
 district in Illinois, either in the mining 
 prices or conditions. I don't think it 
 would be wise for us to attempt to do 
 so, as we are already losing our market. 
 Although there has been an increase in 
 the tonnage, it has not been in propor- 
 tion with our competitors. West Vir- 
 ginia is encroaching upon our territory 
 to an alarming extent. We realize that 
 within the last five or six years West 
 Virginia has come from the fourth 
 place up to Illinois in production, and 
 is going forward. Although you have 
 made an attempt to organize the state, 
 you have not been successful in doing 
 it, at least in any degree. Therefore 
 if we Increase the cost of our coal In 
 the slightest we will lose further 
 ground, the operators will lose the sale 
 of the coal and the men of Illinois will 
 lose the digging of the coal. It is a 
 business proposition not to put Illinois 
 further out of line than she Is today, 
 and the operators will resist any at- 
 tempt to do it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL;— When we left In- 
 dianapolis we left there with the dis- 
 tinct understanding that we were to 
 come back in the state of Illinois and 
 take up and adjust all of the Internal 
 conditions and prices. We believe to- 
 day that our prices throughout the 
 state of Illinois are not competitive. 
 We believe there are certain districts 
 in the state that are enjoying condi- 
 tions that give them an advantage over 
 other districts and for that reason we 
 present the scale . that has been read 
 here today. Mr. Taylor has gone over 
 the situation in a general manner. He 
 has drawn a comparison of the state in 
 general with the state of Indiana and 
 
 the other states in the competitive field. 
 We have met here for the purpose of 
 taking up the different districts arid 
 adjusting them in a manner that we 
 believe will be satisfactory. We don't 
 believe that if one operator is enjoy- 
 ing conditions that give him an advan- 
 tage over another operator who is his 
 direct competitor that this should be 
 allowed to go on. It should be adjust- 
 ed, not for the sake of the operator 
 more than the sake of the miner. That 
 is why we are attempting to change 
 some of the conditions and prices. 
 That is why we have presented the 
 scale that was read here this- morn- 
 ing. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The operators are 
 no more desirous to have the scale of 
 wages completed and agreed to In one 
 convention than are the miners. I be- 
 lieve the miners are in perfect accord 
 with the operators insofar as favoring 
 the fixing of prices for a larger portion 
 of the Illinois product at the national 
 convention, provided the prices can be 
 fixed within the districts that are com- ' 
 petitive and equitable. The reason the 
 miners' organization has opposed mak- 
 ing a scale for a larger part of the 
 product than that mined in the Dan- 
 ville district is because they have not 
 been satisfied that the internal prices 
 in Illinois have been competitive and 
 fair. Just as soon as we can fix our 
 internal prices on a basis that will be 
 competitive and satisfactory, we will 
 be glad to go to a national convention 
 and fix the price of mining in every 
 district in Illinois. 
 
 During the life of the old agreement 
 there is a price fixed at the basing 
 point. I understood Mr. Taylor to say 
 that the other states have their entire 
 price fixed in the national convention. 
 This is not done for any state except 
 Indiana. The prices are fixed for the 
 Hocking Valley in Ohio, and they are 
 allowed to go home and fix prices in 
 the state. For myself, I believe the 
 best interests of the entire movement 
 would be conserved if we could agree 
 upon prices in the state of Illinois at 
 this convention that we could all re- 
 gard as fair; and when we go to the 
 next national convention to fix the 
 price of mining for the entire state of 
 Illinois, and also for Indiana, Ohio and 
 Pennsylvania, leaving the Incidental 
 Questions- of employment open to settle 
 when we go back to our states. That 
 cannot be done until we are satisfied, 
 or at least reasonably satisfied, that 
 the internal prices are relatively com- 
 petitive. 
 
 The miners have contended that the 
 prices were not fair in the thin vein 
 field of northern Illinois or in the thick 
 vein in W^illiamson county. I will be 
 consistent now as I always have been 
 or tried to be, and will say that I don't 
 believe mining prices will ever be made 
 that will make the earning powers of 
 men the same. This movement is baaed 
 on an effort to give each district a fair 
 
AFTERNOON Session, February 25. 
 
 15 
 
 chance in the market to sell their coal. 
 "We think we are prepared to show at 
 this convention that those conditions 
 do not exist in Illinois. That William- 
 son county has enjoyed advantages in 
 the market to which it is not entitled; 
 and that there are conditions in north- 
 ern Illinois that ought to be changed 
 to give the men a greater amount for 
 the labor they perform. The only way 
 we can devote our time profitably this 
 afternoon is to take Up one of the 
 scales — I don't care which one you take, 
 only as ours happens to be the best 
 I would prefer that — take it up seria- 
 tim, and let everyone give his opinion 
 on the questions raised. I have no 
 doubt we will reach an agreement if 
 everyone will tell the truth and not 
 seek to take advantages. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— The question 
 before the convention is to take up and 
 consider seriatim the scale proposed by 
 the miners. Are you ready for the mo- 
 tion? 
 
 (The operators voted Tes, the miners 
 voted Tes, and the motion was declared 
 carried.) 
 
 The first section of the miners' pro- 
 posed scale was read by Mr. Cameron, 
 secretary of the miners' scale commit- 
 tee, and it was agreed that it should 
 be passed, and considered later. 
 
 The first clause of the scale for the 
 First district was read. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 section as read be adopted. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR;— I would like to ask 
 upon what basis you figure this, ad- 
 vance? 
 
 MR. HBALES:— In regard to the five 
 cents advance for the northern part of 
 Illinois, the reason we ask it is because 
 we think we are not competitive with 
 the other part of the state. In 1897 we 
 had a reduction of IT^ cents on the 
 first day of May. The other parti of 
 the state had no reduction. The men 
 there went on strike, and they 
 were on strike six or seven months. 
 "When the strike was finally settled we 
 got a ten-cent advance and the southern 
 part got the same. They never got a 
 reduction, and they didn't stand in 
 need of any. That advance left us 7% 
 cents behind the southern part of the 
 state. The miners of the northern part 
 of Illinois cannot make a livelihood at 
 the price we are getting— 76 cents a ton 
 and two feet of brushing. "We want an 
 advance there because we think we 
 need it. The miners of the southern 
 part have an advantage c^ver the min- 
 ers of the northern part o^,the state of 
 Illinois; and the northerji operators 
 have a great advantage over the oper- 
 ators in the southern part,.!,., Their coal 
 will bring twenty to thirty cents a ton 
 more than the Coal that te produced 
 In the southern part of th# state; -and 
 we have only about t^n ,,iger cent of 
 slack to contend w-ith, against their 35 
 or 40 per cent of slack. We suffered a 
 17% cents reduction when the other 
 miners in the state had no reduction. 
 
 There .is a great difference between the 
 northern part of the state and the 
 southern part when it comes to dis&ing 
 coal.' Their coal is on an average from 
 five to seven feet, and two and one- 
 half to three . and one-half, with 
 two feet of brushing, is what we 
 have in some places. The man 
 in the southern part can dig six 
 tons easier than we can dig two tons. 
 We have 76 cents a ton with two feet of 
 brushing. We think we should- be paid 
 for the brushing. Our wives and famr 
 ilies are as much to be respected as the 
 wives and families of the men in the 
 other parts of the State. If I was an 
 operator and could not pay my miners 
 as much as the operators in other parts 
 of the state I would shut my shaft 
 down. The operators in the northern 
 part of the state can pay this five cents, 
 and then have a big advantage over the 
 operators in the southern part of the 
 state. It would not advance our wages 
 more than ten cents a day on an aver- 
 age. We ask for ten cents for entries 
 and cross headings because we think 
 the northeri) part of the state has as 
 much right to pay for yardage as any 
 other part of the state. Our operators 
 don't pay a cent for yardage work; we 
 have to do all that for nothing. The 
 only thing we get is when we get a 
 ton of coal on top, and then we only 
 get 76 cents. We have to drive cross 
 entries and do all kinds of work and 
 we don't get a cent for it. We have to 
 bring the coal a long ways, and we 
 think they have as much right to pay 
 their men good wages as the operators 
 in the other parts of Illinois have., I 
 hope the operators . will consider that 
 and give us what we ask without hav- 
 iilg any trouble about it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- 1 am sorry the gen- 
 tleman from Spring "Valley has taken 
 it upon himself to open up ancient his- 
 tory. Inasmuch as this matter is al- 
 ways opened up here, I thought I would 
 bring with me a paper that was prepar- 
 ed a long time ago. I will read it and 
 ask that it be printed in the proceedings. 
 We can all read it when we have time. 
 This was published in the Streator pa- 
 pers and the LaSalle papers at the 
 time it was written. I found it the 
 other day among some papers that had 
 been laid away, and brought it along 
 because I thought somebody would get 
 up here in this convention and open 
 up the old question. 
 
 (Mr. Taylor read- the ' following pa- 
 per:) y 
 
 "Chicago, IH., .October 14, 1897. 
 
 Gentlemen, of the Committee:— In or- 
 der that you may get at the truth of 
 the facts concerning the' present coal 
 strike, I will as briefly, as possible make 
 statements-backed up by -figures "which 
 we trust will >be tljegineans of enllght- 
 .enjng your -oomnjiittee ai*} nutting you 
 in a position to present this grave and 
 serious question affecting the lives and 
 welfare of thousands of men and mil- 
 lions of capital in northern Illinois. 
 
16 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, February 25. 
 
 After the strike of 1894 was brought 
 on by the miners' representatives in 
 Pennsylvania and Ohio, and after the 
 stoclcs of coal on hand ^.t the head of 
 the lakes had been disposed of, a con- 
 < vention was called at Columbus, Ohio, 
 which was largely attended by both 
 miners and operators, and a scale for- 
 mulated by a committee composed of 
 equal parts miners and operators rep- 
 resenting each competitive field in Ohio, 
 Pennsylvania, Indiana and northern 
 Illinois. This scale, which has since 
 been known as the Columbus scale, 
 was as follows: 
 
 Sixty-nine cents for Pittsburg coal; 
 ,60 cents for Hocking Valley; 60 cents 
 for Indiana bituminous; 69 cents for 
 Indiana block; 62% cents summer and 
 70 cents winter for Streator; 10 cents 
 above Streator price for LaSalle and 
 third vein, and 15 cents above Streator 
 price for Wilmington; these two differ- 
 entials being as an offset against Strea- 
 tor to cover the cost of brushing. 
 
 The northern Illinois field, including 
 Streator, LaSalle and "Wilmington, have 
 strictly and conscientiously maintained 
 this plane of wages since the settle- 
 ment of 1894, while their closest com- 
 petitors in Indiana, central and south- 
 ern Illinois have, from time to time, re- 
 duced wages on lump coal until they 
 were paying 47 cents in Indiana at the 
 time of the suspension, July 1, 1897. 
 Danville was paying at the time of the 
 suspension a price which is equal to 
 about 33 cents per ton. on mine-run. 
 
 Two years ago in a convention at Jo- 
 llet the operators brought the facts and 
 figures to their men and showed them 
 that if they were forced to pay the 
 Columbus scale, the large contracts 
 which they enjoyed would be diverted 
 and go to other fields where tiie men 
 were working for less wages. The men 
 Insisted, however, that the operators pay 
 the scale,and they agreed to do this with 
 a considerable loss of business, as pre- 
 dicted. When the next convention was 
 held at Joliet the following spring the 
 operators again urged and pleaded with 
 their men to allow the northern Illinois 
 field to fix a price for mining which 
 would be competitive with the rest of 
 the state, and which would allow them 
 to regain the tonnage lost to them, but 
 the men were firm, and insisted that 
 the operators should continue to pay 
 the scale, although they well knew 
 there were places in their own state, 
 other than Danville, points south on 
 the C. & A. Ry., and the C. & E. I. 
 railway, where coal was being mined 
 as low as 20 cents and 25 cents for 
 mine^run coal, and as low as 30 cents, 
 40 cents and 50 cents for clean lump. 
 The operators agreed, although they 
 proved beyond a question of a doubt 
 that they were entitled to a reduction 
 in the face of circumstances and condi- 
 tions in other fields, to continue to pay 
 the Columbus scale for another year, 
 with the following results: 
 In the years 1895-6 the companies 
 
 composing the General Wilmington 
 Coal Co., mined, marketed and paid 
 for at a price of 81% cents per ton, this 
 being the average between 77% cents 
 summer and 85 cents winter, 964,208 tons 
 at 81% cents, $783,319.00. In the season 
 of 1896-7 this tonnage was cut down to 
 612,802 tons, at 81% cents, $497,901.62, al- 
 though the men received the same price 
 per ton in the year 1896-7 that they did 
 in the year 1895-6, they received in act- 
 ual wages $285,417.38 less money than 
 they did in the year previous from the 
 company, although the period covered 
 the same length of time. 
 
 These astounding figures made it so 
 self-evident that the Wilmington and 
 northern Illinois Held was on a plane 
 relatively too high, as compared with 
 the rest of the state in competitive 
 fields, that even the miners admitted 
 that something would have to be done 
 to equalize the mining' rate in the, 
 northern field in order to regain any 
 of our business, and hold such business 
 as we still had. It was evident that to 
 continue the policy of holding a wage 
 per ton which made the cost of produc- 
 ing the coal so high that it could not 
 find a market as compared with other 
 fields, was worse than a strike, insts- 
 much as the mines lay practically idle, 
 and the men received only one or two 
 days' work a week, when they could 
 have had steady work had the price 
 been a relative price compared with the 
 other fields in the state. 
 
 In the spring, just prior to May 1, this 
 year, a Joint convention of miners and 
 operators convened in Streator, 111., and 
 after most careful and painstaking dis- 
 cussion, both in open convention and 
 in committee meetings, all these facts 
 were placed before the men plainly, 
 and the operators promised, and from 
 time to time reiterated the promise, 
 that if the men would accept a price 
 that would allow them to regain the 
 business which rightfully belongs to 
 northern Illinois coal fields, that they 
 would go into the market and secure 
 large contracts, so that although the 
 men worked at a less price per ton, in- 
 asmuch as we could give them steadier 
 work, the earnings at the end of each 
 week would be an increase, as the men 
 would have more tons to dig. The del- 
 egates to this convention reported back 
 the action, and the scale presented by 
 the operators to the men for ratifica- 
 tion. After due deliberation, on about 
 the 20th of May, the men signified their 
 willingness to return to work, signed 
 individual contracts with each opera- 
 tor without protest, to work until May 
 1, next. The operators have promised 
 again and again that after a relative 
 scale was established they would glad- 
 ly advance the price per ton, cent by 
 cent, as it was advanced in the com- 
 petitive fields at the end of each scale 
 year. 
 
 Believing with the promises we had 
 with our men, the operators in order 
 to carry out their part of the agree- 
 
Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 17 
 
 ment went into the market, and this 
 company contracted a tonnage based 
 upon contracts with our men, which 
 we estimate to be 1,061,900 tons. This 
 enormous tonnase at 67% cents, the 
 price which we agreed to pay over the 
 old %-inch screen in the Streator con- 
 vention, and which the men have con- 
 tracted to accept, would make $716,- 
 782.50 in wages tO' the men, or $218,880.88 
 in excess of the wages paid out In the 
 year 1896-7. 
 
 The present officials of the miners' 
 union have shown conclusively that 
 they are not the proper men to be at 
 the head of such a large body of men 
 as is represented by the miners of 
 northern Illinois. The same conditions 
 which brought on Ithe strike of 1894 
 brought on the strike of 1897. The 
 enormous accumulation of coal in the 
 storage dock at Duluth and Superior 
 was moved out and distributed Ifltl 
 territory ususally supplied from north- 
 ern Illinois, and our sympathetic miners 
 went on a strike until the great stock 
 of coal, estimated at 80'0,000 tons, was 
 shipped into our territory and the docks 
 cleaned up. As soon as the docks were 
 cleared up there was some arrange- 
 ments between the national officials cf 
 the miners' union at Columbus, O., and 
 the principal operators and dock own- 
 ers of Ohio and Pennsylvania, and 8 
 settlement was effected. Illinois was 
 sold out slick and clean, and this fact 
 is admitted by both Messrs. Carson and 
 Ryan. After this Columbus convention 
 which fixed the price, based on lump 
 coal, Messrs. Carson and Ryan were 
 left in an exceedingly bad light before 
 their constituents in Illinois. The onlj' 
 thing they could do was to call a con- 
 vention of miners at Springfield. 
 Messrs. Carson and Ryan both asked 
 the northern Illinois operators if they 
 would go to this meeting. The north- 
 ern Illinois operators asked these gen- 
 tlemen whether their competitors 
 would be represented, and these gentle- 
 men could give them no assurances 
 that they would. The operators then 
 proceeded to give them full and com- 
 plete evidence that there would be no 
 representation of operators from com- 
 retitlve fields at the Springfield con- 
 vention, and stated their case very 
 plainly, and in a' letter to Mr. Carson, 
 which he read in the Springfield con- 
 vention. 
 
 On September 15 I addressed a letter 
 to W. D. Ryan, sending a copy of same 
 to James Carson, which I herewith set 
 forth in full: 
 
 Chicago, 111., Sept. 15, 1897. 
 W. D. Ryan, Esq., Braidwood, 111. 
 — Dear Sir: I have been care- 
 fully figuring lover the results of the 
 Columbus convention and the position 
 in which it would leave Illinois. The 
 resolution passed there accepting the 
 Pittsburg operators' offer of 65 !cents 
 per ton for coal screened over l^^-inch 
 screens. It was understood that all 
 mines were to return to work at the es* 
 
 tablished differentials as soon as these 
 could be obtained. This would make 
 the present scale for Pittsburg 65 cents; 
 Ohio, 56 cents; Indiana block, 65 cents; 
 Indiana bituminous, 56 cents; Danville, 
 51 cents, this being the established dif- 
 ferential of 5 cents per ton, as against 
 Indiana bituminous fixed by the Bcale 
 of 1894. 
 
 At a convention of miners held in 
 Springfield, Illinois, President James 
 Carson stated that Danville must be 
 the basis of scale for Illinois. Granting 
 that Mr. Carson's position is the cor- 
 rect one, 51 cents at Danville would 
 carry with it for the mining: lof the 
 .«ame geological vein found at Danville, 
 Westvllle and Grape Creek, wherever 
 this vein appears throughout the state. 
 The veins which are being mined at 
 Danville and the surrounding mining 
 camps are known geologically as No. 6 
 and No. 7. These same veins are found 
 at Marion, Hallidayborough, Duquoin, 
 Carterville, Mt. Olive and Streator, so 
 the new scale would make 51 cents the 
 basis of mining at all these places, as 
 there could be no material difference 
 in the class of .mining in the same geo- 
 logical vein. 
 
 Streator is the basis for mining for 
 northern Illinois. There is an old es- 
 tablished differential allowing 10 cents 
 above Streator price to be paid for 
 brushing of coal at I^aSalle and third 
 vein points and 15 cents above the 
 Streator priee to be paid for brushing 
 in Braidwood and the WUmington fields. 
 This would make the price of mining on 
 the new scale 61 cents for LaSalle and 
 65 cents for 'Wilmington over the old 
 %-inch screens. The agreement reached 
 between the miners and operators at 
 Streator on May 1 last, at the price at 
 which the miners contracted to dig the 
 coal and the operators sold their out- 
 put, were based on 52% cents for %-inoh 
 screens at Streator, 62% cents for La- 
 Salle and 67% cents for Wilmington, all 
 over %-inch screens. 
 
 It would be seen from these prices 
 that they are 1% cents higher than the 
 men would now receive under the Col- 
 umbus agreement. There is also a 
 clause in the contract which we have 
 with the miners Bf northern Illinois 
 that where coal is screened over 1%- 
 inch screens, the price paid for coal 
 over the larger screen is to be 60 cents 
 at Streator, 70 cents at LaSalle and 75 
 cents at Wilmington. It is also pro- 
 vided that where the coal is not 
 screened 50 cents is to be paid at La- 
 Salle and 55 cents in the Wilmington 
 field for rough and tumble coal. Al- 
 though this new arrangement is favor- 
 able to the operators, inasmuch as they 
 would save the 1% cents per ton by 
 working on this scale, there can be no 
 deviation from the contract between 
 miners and operators on May 1 until 
 the first of next May. The operat&rs 
 will not ask the men to accept the 1% 
 cents less, but will continue to pay 
 
18 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, February 25. 
 
 contract price until the first of May- 
 next. 
 
 If you are truly working In the inter- 
 est of Illinois, it would seem only right 
 that you advise the men to return to 
 work as speedily as possible, in order 
 to get Illinois coal into the market in 
 time to save what little there is left of 
 our market for the coming year. 
 Tours truly, 
 
 (Signed) H. N. TAYLOR." 
 
 Two years ago when we met you in 
 Indianapolis the old contention of the 
 4 cents was brought up again, and Mr. 
 Ryan and Mr. IMitcheU came to the 
 committee of northern Illinois operators 
 and said, "For heaven's sake, if you 
 can give this 4 cents, give it to them 
 and stop this eternal argument!" We 
 agreed to come down to Springfield and 
 give the additional 4 cents. We sup- 
 posed when we had done that it ended 
 the discussion from northern Illinois. 
 We made a record and protested 
 against giving It, except as the price of 
 peace. Not that there were any rea- 
 sons why you should have it, for the 
 records show that the 4 cents you claim 
 you lost was lost simply because you 
 asked for it and didn't get it. They 
 asked it in Ohio and didn't get it, and 
 they asked for it in Pennsylvania and 
 didn't get it; but we gave it, and will 
 pay it until times get so bad that we 
 cannot do it — and those times may be 
 nearer than you think. To be competi- 
 tive we really ought to have that 4 
 cents taken oft. • 
 
 I have brought this up to get the facts 
 before you as they are. When northern 
 Illinois stuck to the Columbus scale — 
 and it did until the business dwindled 
 away, until the men onlv worked 72 
 days the year before the strike^ — 
 they were based on the Hocking price, 
 and today the Hocking coal that comes 
 in competition with northern Illinois 
 coal is mined largely by machines, and 
 the operators producing that coal pro- 
 duce it for 56 cents instead of 80 cents. 
 If we are based on the pick price, every 
 time you widen the differential in those 
 states you put us further out of line 
 and make it harder for us to meet the 
 competition. Hocking coal has gone out 
 over this country, until it has nar- 
 rowed down our territory. The whole 
 state of Illinois is entirely out of line 
 with our eastern competitors. Inasmuch 
 as their coal is largely produced by 
 machinery. I hope that you gentlemen 
 from northern Illinois will not insist 
 upon urging more hardships upon us. 
 We cannot pay any more than we are 
 paying. 
 
 MR. MONAGHAN:— Mr. Taylor has 
 dug up this old paper. Now I would 
 like to have him answer a question or 
 two. What was the price of coal in 
 those days at the mines, and what is 
 the price of coal at the mines today? 
 I don't suppose he wants to answer the 
 latter question, but I wish he would. 
 , MR. TAYLOR :^I don't think I want 
 to present those figures here. Not that 
 
 I am afraid to, but I will present them 
 to your officials. That is a matter we 
 don't care to have the operators or 
 miners go into here. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— I should like to ask a 
 question. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I shall be glad to 
 answer it if I can. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— Which 4 cents do 
 you refer to? The 4 cents that was lost 
 at Columbus or the 4 cents that was lost 
 at Joliet? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — There never was any 
 4 cents lost, either in Columbus or Jo- 
 liet, any more than if I were to go down 
 and ask a man for a house, and if he 
 did not give it to me, I might claim 
 after that that I had lost the house. 
 That is the way you have been claiming 
 that 4 cents. 
 
 MR. ROGERS: — When the last sus- 
 pension took place we were out two 
 months. When the national board 
 made the settlement, it was 4 cents be- 
 low what we were protesting for. When 
 the settlement was made for northern 
 Illinois, in November, 1897, I believe, 
 there was 4 cents lost from that scale, 
 which made 8 cents from the first na- 
 tional scale that was made. I have 
 both scales to prove this. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— You asked for 4 
 cents that you didn't get, and you 
 claimed you lost it because you didn't 
 get it. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— That is not the way 
 at all. The trouble with this 4 cents 
 has been that when it was allowed by 
 the northern Illinois operators in con- 
 vention, the operators contended all 
 through the '97 strike the differential 
 between the lump and the gross weight 
 scale was too low. They said 
 there was 12% cents' differential, and 
 the miners contended there was only 
 8% cents. That is where the 4 cents 
 was lost that we giot back two years 
 ago. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— W^hen the strike 
 of 1897 was settled I think possibly I 
 was, as much as any other one person. 
 Instrumental in bringing about the set- 
 tlement that took place in Joliet. I told 
 the miners of northern Illinois that 
 they had made a mistake. I am more 
 than convinced now that at that time 
 we were wrong. .The miners of 
 northern Illinois did not lose four cents 
 in the settlement of the strike of 1S97, 
 but they did lose four cents, and 1 am 
 not sure that they did not lose more 
 than that since the strike of 1897. I 
 v,-ant to emphasize the fact that there 
 was no loss of 4 cents in the settle- 
 ment of the strike of 1897. I know 
 many miners of northern Illinois 
 were very much dissatisfied at that 
 time, believing that they had surren- 
 dered four cents a ton. 
 
 The strike of 1897 was called for a 
 specific purpose; the miners were or- 
 dered to strike to enforce a scale of 
 wages that was formulated In the Co- 
 lumbus convention held In the spring 
 of 1897. The scale for the various dis- 
 
Afternoon Sbssion, February 25. 
 
 19 
 
 tricts was as follows:— 69 cents for the 
 thin vein of the Pittsburg district; 60 
 cents for the Hocking district of Ohio; 
 60 cents for the bituminous district of 
 Indiana; 55 cents for the Grape Crsek 
 district of Illinois, based on screened 
 coal, and the mining rates of 1894 for 
 the balance of Illinois. Now let us see 
 what the mining prices of 1894 for Illi- 
 nois were, on a screened coal basis. 
 The prices paid In the third vein of 
 northern Illinois in 1894 were 80 cents 
 in the winter months and 72% cents in 
 the summer months. Five cents above 
 this price was paid in the "W^ilmington 
 field. The strike was compromised by 
 the miners of Pennsylvania, Ohio and 
 Indiana, accepting a mining rate four 
 cents per ton less than demanded in 
 the original Columbus scale. This was 
 followed by a similar reduction in the 
 IHiiiois scale, which w^ould miake the 
 scale in the third vein of northern Illi- 
 nois 76 cents for the winter months and 
 68% cents for the summer months, or 
 an average for the year of 72% cents; 
 and as there had been an established 
 differential of 12% cents between the 
 screened coal and tun-of-mine prices In 
 the third vein field it follows that the 
 run-tof-mine price for the third vein, 
 based upon the settlement in the east, 
 would be 59% cents; and a settlement 
 was made in the Jollet convention fixing 
 the prices of mining in the third ^'ein 
 field at 60 cents a ton for run-of-mlne 
 coal. 
 
 I might say that I never did believe 
 that the amount of screenings in ' the 
 Wilmington fields was as much as in 
 the third vein field. I am satisfied that 
 the four cents was lost after the settle- 
 ment of 1897, or rather in the spring of 
 1898. I contend that when the Chicago 
 convention was held and an advance of 
 ten cents a ton for Ohio; ten cents for 
 Indiana and its equivalent in the thin 
 vein of the Pittsburg district was re- 
 ceived by agreement, the mining price 
 for Illinois should have advanced ten 
 cents a ton or Its equivalent In the run- 
 of-mine price. This Would, I believe, 
 have been 6 cents in the Danville field, 
 and the thin veins of northern Illinois 
 should have advanced seven or eight 
 cents Instead of the three cents which 
 was paid under the agreement reached 
 in the Chicago convention. 
 
 I will sav now that If I had been 
 present in the meeting in Chicago when 
 the Illinois miners and operators met 
 separately to try to figure out what 
 their advance should be based on, I 
 should have protested against Illinois 
 accepting that for the entire state, 
 simply because Danville happened to be 
 out of line. ^ I went In late and told 
 them I did not think it was right, and I 
 am still of the same opinion. 
 
 Now I will take up the statements 
 made by Mr. Taylor. I believe the 
 operators of northern Illinois will ad- 
 mit that after making a reduction, not 
 of 17% cents a ton, as has been said, 
 but of 13 cents a ton, (17% cents in the 
 
 winter and 10 cents in the summer, 
 amounting, I believe, to about 13% for 
 the whole year) — I believe when they 
 made that reduction they placed them- 
 selves on a relative price with the bal- 
 ance of Illinois. When they made that 
 reduction their prices were relative to 
 the prices paid in Indiana,^ Ohio and 
 Pennsylvania. I was not in northern 
 Illinois when that reduction took place. 
 I went back there and found that the 
 miners wanted to strike, and I encour- 
 aged them to strike. In Spring Valley 
 a little set of men got together and 
 broke into the mines. Since that time, 
 since the strike of 1897, there have been 
 two general advances in the mining 
 rate, 10 cents in Chicago and 14 cents 
 in Indianapolis. The mines of lUlnoisi — 
 and I don't care where they are lo- 
 cated — if based upon run-of-mlne 
 were entitled to advance, not at the 
 same price as Danville, but in propor- 
 tion to their screenings, and northern 
 Illinois, having the smallest percentage 
 of screenings, should have made the 
 greatest advance. 
 
 The demand made in Indianapolis In 
 1900 for 4 cents more than was paid at 
 Danville was not, 'in my judgment, 
 given entirely td stop the agitation. If 
 there was an advance on screened coal 
 of 14 cents a ton in Indiana, and 9 cents 
 was the equivalent in Danville,' 9 cents 
 was not the equivalent of it in the Wil- 
 mington field. In a district where the 
 price is based on 40 per cent of screen- 
 ings, the price should not advance as 
 much as in a field where the screenings 
 is only 20 per cent. If there is less than 
 40 per* cent of screenings their price Is 
 wrong. What is the percentage there? 
 If 12% cents is the proper differential 
 in northern Illinois between screened 
 coal and run-of-mlne, then there Is 
 some question In my mind as to the 
 prices being competitive and right. I 
 will say freely and honestly that I rec- 
 ognize the statement made by Mr. Tay- 
 lor that they are meeting the Hocking 
 Valley coal that is mined at 56 cents. 
 I know that to be true. I know Hock- 
 ing Valley operators do not pay 80 cents 
 a ton, the price fixed in our scale, be- 
 cause they don't mine any coal 
 by hand. But I don't think 
 the operators should seek the 
 points in the United States where 
 the prices happen to be the least. The 
 meeting in Jollet was attended by both 
 Mr. Taylor and myself, and T remem- 
 ber an incident that impressed itself 
 upon my memory. That was the first 
 time I ever served on a scale commit- 
 tee. I believe it was also the first time 
 Mr. Taylor served on a scale commit- 
 tee. Col. Swaet was the man who at 
 that time ran northern Illinois. They 
 were arguing at that meeting for a re- 
 duction of 9 cents a ton. The officers 
 of our organization were not making a 
 good fight against that reduction. I 
 don't know whether it was pride or not 
 that made Mr. Taylor and myself feel 
 that we were not cutting any ice 
 
20 
 
 Afternoon Sbssion, February 25. 
 
 on that committee. At any rate we felt 
 the others were not paying enough at- 
 tention to us, and we went aside and 
 agreed we would taice a hand In it; we 
 felt we ought to have as much right as 
 anyone else, and Mr. Taylor agreed 
 with me that we would not allow that 
 reduction and the committee did not 
 enforce it. I will say for Mr. Taylor, at 
 that time he was a good fellow. Now 
 things have changed very much during 
 the last seven or eight years. Mr. 
 Taylor says that at that time the mines 
 worked seventy-two days. I don't think 
 there has been any complaint among 
 them that they have not worked during 
 the past three years. The miners are 
 not complaining about the amount of 
 work they do. Their whole complaint 
 is about the amount of pay they get 
 for their work. I don't believe it ought 
 to be the purpose of the miners' organ- 
 ization or the operators' association — 
 and it should not be the purpose of this 
 joint movement — to put any party be- 
 longing to it out of business, and if I 
 believed the miners were in error I 
 would tell them so. I believe the scale 
 of wages should be so formulated as 
 to give to each district represented 
 here a fair part of the trade that comes 
 to Illinois. If northern Illinois has 
 more than a fair share, it must be be- 
 cause they have advantages over the 
 other parts of the state. Those favor- 
 able opportunities can only oome from 
 lower prices — they are not the result of 
 natural conditions. Since I came to 
 Peoria I have not had time to look up 
 the data as to how many days the 
 mines have run in 'northern lUTnois. 
 The miners say they are working stead- 
 ily enough, but they are hardly making 
 living wages. I said this morning that 
 1 did not believe a scale would ever be 
 formulated that would give to the 
 miners of the state or nation thp same 
 earning power. I am free to confess If 
 some mines paid as high as others they 
 would go out of business; and I don't 
 know but it would.be a good thing for 
 the miners if a whole lot of your mines 
 would go out of business. It is not 
 your fault, and it is not ours, that you 
 have got work that will not pay a 
 profit and pay as high wages as prevail. 
 We cannot help that; the miners are 
 there; we have met the conditions, and 
 we will do it again; but we da want 
 the operators of northern Illinois to 
 share a part of the burden of their un- 
 favorable natural conditions. 
 
 MR. WILLIAM THOMPSON:— Mr. 
 President and Gentlemen: That part 
 of the First district scale which asks 
 for 10.9 cents for cross roads is 
 not asking an advance. It is only ask- 
 ing something that belongs to the First 
 district, and has belonged to it ever 
 since It was first opened up. I have 
 been there for thirty years, and in the 
 past that 10 cents always went with the 
 cross roads. The operatdrs took that 
 off, and I say they stole it because they 
 had an opportunity to do so. That was 
 
 taken from us when we were not in a 
 position to help ourselves, at a time 
 when we had to go to the operators 
 individually and ask for what we got. 
 We are not asking for an advance; it 
 is a condition that has belonged to the 
 field from the first. I would like to 
 have the scale committee when they go 
 into their session to remember this. 
 
 SECRETARY RYAN:— I want to take 
 exception to the document offered by 
 Mr. Taylor. I object to its becoming 
 a part of the records of this convention, 
 unless it is presented in full and printed 
 just as it was sent out at the time it 
 was written. He takes a knock at the 
 officials of the miners' organization and 
 shields an ex-offlcial of the organization 
 who took issue with us on account of 
 the position we occupied at that time. 
 It is not fair, and I want to enter my 
 protest against anything of the kind. 
 I am satisfied to have the whole docu- 
 ment printed, or none of it at all. There 
 are some things in there which will 
 certainly leave a bad Impression upon 
 the minds of the members of this con- 
 vention. The term "sold out," when 
 alluding to the oflHcials of our organiza- 
 tion, has always grated very harshly 
 upon our ears, whether we are oflflclalB 
 or miners. Had the men who repre- 
 sented the Illinois miners in the Col- 
 umbus convention acceded to the 
 wishes of the national organization and 
 came home and asked the men to gd to 
 work, you might say that we sold out. 
 We came home and advised them to 
 continue the strike until they won, aud 
 that is what is hurting the Illinois op- 
 erators now. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Chairman, if 
 Mr. Ryan had listened more carefuUv, 
 he would have known that I did net 
 say they sold out, but that "Illinois was 
 sold out." After Illinois came out In 
 sympathy with Pennsylvania and Ohio, 
 and stayed out and fought their battle 
 for them until the Ohio operators got 
 rid of all the coal they had piled up, 
 they made a private settlement down 
 there with the Ohio and Pennsylvania 
 miners and left Illinois out in the cold 
 with a strike on her hands. They left 
 you out; they didn't sympathize with 
 you. That is what I meant when I said 
 Illinois was sold out— not that your offi- 
 cials sold you out. They made a good 
 flght, and came back and kept up the 
 strike. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't think It 
 would be a good thing to have that 
 statement printed. When the strike of 
 1897 was settled In Ohio and Pennsyl- 
 vania, and we were left on strike, I 
 said many harsh things. I do not think 
 there was a miner who stayed on strike 
 for two or three pionths after the rest 
 of the field went to work who did not 
 say harsh things. I am president of all 
 the miners, and one part of the organ- 
 ization is as dear to me as the other; 
 but I will say that while I am presldtsnt 
 I will never consent to a strike bein? 
 
Afternoon Session, February 25. 
 
 21 
 
 settled in the east while Illinois is on 
 strike. 
 
 Mr. Thompson has stated a fact when 
 he said that in the third vein it is 
 much more difficult to drive a cross en- 
 try or a heading than jn any othar 
 place. In the Braidwood field I believe 
 they drive their entries on a straight 
 face; In the third vein they drive 
 ■them at a slant of 45 degi'ees. The 
 miner is doing all that extra work for 
 nothing. Another thing that is wrong 
 there is the amount they pay for turn- 
 ing branches. They only pay a small 
 amount for that work. The compen- 
 sation- for turning branches in the 
 northern field is not one-tenth of what 
 it ought to be if a man is compensated 
 lor the work he does. I believe the 
 operators should concede the 10 cents a 
 ton extra for their cross roads ;ind 
 lieadings. They can certainly assign no 
 reason for not doing so. This 10 cents 
 was taken off arbitrarily by the oper- 
 ators. It was paid in Spring Valley for 
 many years and was not taken i'r.im 
 them until the close of the strike in 18.14. 
 when the miners were forced to accept 
 almost any conditions the operators 
 were willing to give them. It is paid in 
 Braidwood and elsewhere, where it daes 
 net require as much labor as it does in 
 the third vein of northern Illinois. 
 
 (On the motion before the house the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Tes, and the motion was declared lost.'* 
 
 The secretary read the scale for the 
 Second district. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I move the adoption of 
 the scale for the Second district. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Mitchell.) 
 
 (The operators voted Tes, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the scale for the Second 
 ■district was declared adopted.) 
 
 The miners' proposed scale for the 
 Third dLstrict was read, and it was 
 moved by Mr. Russell and seconded by 
 Mr. Mitchell that it be adopted. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move as a substi- 
 tute that the scale for Springfield and 
 associated mines be 49.7 cents; Lineoln 
 and Niantic, 53 cents; Colfax, 53 cents. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Bent.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No. and the substitute was il<i- 
 olsj'fid lost ^ 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and ;t 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 The secretary read the miners' scale 
 for the Fourth district and it was 
 moved and seconded that it be adopted. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move as a substi- 
 tute the following: 
 
 Mines on the C. & A., south of Spring- 
 field, to and including Carlinville, in- 
 oluding Taylorville, Pana, Litchfield, 
 Hlllsboro, Witt (Paisley), Divernon and 
 Pawnee, 49 cents; Assumption, long 
 wall, under regulation of third vein 
 -field, 65% cents; Moweaqua, room and 
 pillar, 53 cents; Mt. Pulaski, room and 
 pillar, 66 cents; Decatur, present condi- 
 tions, 64 cents. (Seconded by Mr. Bent.) 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to divide 
 
 the entire proposition and take it up in 
 sections. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 Mr. Cameron read the first clause of 
 the miners' proposed scale for the 
 Fourth district. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 by including "coal, five feet and under, 
 54 cents." (Seconded and lost, the op- 
 erators voting No.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move to amend the 
 original motion by including "Litch- 
 field, 49 cents." (Seconded and lost, the 
 miners voting No.) 
 
 (On motion to adopt the clause as 
 read was lost, the operators voting No.) 
 
 The secoftd clause of the miners' 
 proposed scale for the Fourth district 
 was read, and a motion made and sec- 
 onded that the clause be adopted. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and it was declared lost.) 
 
 The third clause of the scale for the 
 Fourth district presented by the miners, 
 was read and a motion was made and 
 seconded that It be adopted. The oper- 
 ators voted No, the miners voted Yes, 
 and it was declared lost. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you that -As- 
 sumption long wall under regulations 
 of third vein field be 65% cents. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No., and it was declared lost.) 
 
 The fourth clause of the miners' scale 
 relating to Moweaqua was read, and a 
 motion to adopt was made and sec- 
 onded. 
 
 MR. BENT — I move to amend by sub- 
 stituting Moweaqua, room and pillar, 
 53 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the substitute was de- 
 clared lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and It 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 The secretary read the next section, 
 "Mt. Pulaski, room and pillar, 66 cents." 
 
 A motion was made by Mr. Ryan and 
 seconded by Mr. Taylor that this sec- 
 tion be adopted. The operators and 
 miners both voted Yes, and that section 
 was declared adopted. 
 
 The next section was read b.v the 
 secretary: "Decatur, 64 cents; Ray- 
 mond, 74 cents, including 12 Inches of 
 brushing." 
 
 The operators requested that th'e vote 
 be only on Decatur. 
 
 It was moved and seconded that the 
 rate for Decatur be 64 cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move to amend oy 
 inserting after the word "Decatur" the 
 words "present conditions." (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the niinprs 
 voted No, and the amendment was de- 
 clared lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and It 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 The secretary read the rest of the 
 section, "Raymond, 74 cents, with 12 
 inches of brushing." 
 
 It was moved by Mr. Ryan and sac- 
 
22 
 
 Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 onded by Mr. Perry that the section he 
 adopted. . . 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We don't want to 
 vote that down, because we are not fa- 
 miliar with It. We would like to pa'ss 
 that for the present. 
 
 (The section was passed over.) 
 
 The proposed scale for the Fifth dis- 
 trict was read as follows: "Glen Car- 
 bon, Belleville and associated mines, to 
 and including Plnckneyville, WlUisville 
 and Nashville, 49 cents." 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 by inserting the words: "Coal, five feet 
 and under, 45 cents." (Seconded by 
 Mr. Taylor.) 
 
 (The operators and miners both 
 voted Yes, and it was declared carried. 
 The section was then voted on and 
 adopted as amended.) 
 
 "Germantown, 54 cents," was then 
 moved and seconded. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JUSTI:— I think it woUxd 
 be well to pas^ that for the present. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We simply want the 
 records to show it. We will agree to 
 pass it for the present. 
 
 The scale tor the Sixth district was 
 taken up, and "Duquoln, Odin, Sand- 
 oval, Centralia and associated mines, 
 45 cents," was moved and seconded. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the section was de- 
 clared adopted.) 
 
 "Salem, 50 cents, and Kinmundy, 
 room and pillar, 50 cents," was read by 
 the secretary. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I wish to substitute: 
 "Salem and Kinmundy, room and pil- 
 lar, 50 cents." (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 "Kinmundy, long wall, under third 
 vein regulations, 65 cents; coal to be 
 mined in clay or coal at the option of 
 the miner," was moved and seconded. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion was de- 
 clared lost.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I think we should 
 decide before leaving here whether we 
 shall meet in joint convention or 
 whether we shall meet in scale coni- 
 mlttee tomorrow morning. I believe 
 business would be expedited by turning 
 the matter over to the scale committee 
 tomorrow morning. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — Do you make a motion 
 that the matter of preparing the scale 
 be referred to the scale committee? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I move that the 
 matter of scale be referred to the scale 
 committee, they to meet tomorrow 
 morning at 9:30. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would suggest 
 that you take an Aye and Nay vote on 
 this motion. (This was done, and the 
 motion was adopted.) 
 
 Adjourned subject to call of scale 
 committee. 
 
 , JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., February 26, 1902. 
 The committee was called to order by 
 Mr. Justi at 9:30 a. m., in the National 
 Hotel, and organized by electing Mr. 
 
 W. D. Ryan, chairman; Mr. C. L. 
 Scroggs, secretary, and Mr. W. T. Mor- 
 ris, assistant secretary. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 rules governing the joint convention 
 apply to the scale committee, except 
 the rule prohibiting smoking. (Sec- 
 onded and carried.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Is it the wish 
 of the committee to take up the scale 
 where you left off yesterday? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you that we 
 lay the miners' scale on the table and 
 take up the operators' scale. (Second- 
 ed by Mr. Hull.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— What is the pur- 
 pose of that? 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the motion was declared 
 lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 miners' scale be taken up and dis- 
 cussed seriatim. (Seconded.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Do you mean 
 to take up the first section, or do you 
 mean to begin where we left off yester- 
 day? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Take up the First 
 district. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move to amend 
 that by taking up the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I rise to a point 
 of order. The question referred to this 
 committee was the miners' scale. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— The point is 
 not well taken. The motion was to re- 
 fer the matter of scale to the scale 
 committee. ■ 
 
 MR. JAMES MORRIS:— If the record 
 of yesterday is called up here it will 
 show that this is a part of yesterday's 
 meeting, and that we are still discuss- 
 ing the miners' scale. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— The motion to 
 amend destroys the original motion. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— The chair Is 
 not going to allow any technicalities to 
 be brought in here. Vote and settle the 
 matter. You will have to have a pretty 
 clean-cut. point of order before I will 
 recognize it. 
 
 (On Mr. Taylor's amendment the -jp- 
 erators voted Yes, the miners voted No, 
 and it was declared lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted Yes, the miners voted Yes, and 
 it was declared carried.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that we com- 
 mence where we left off yesterday and 
 go through the scale. (Seconded find 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I move the adop- 
 tion of the scale in the Seventh district 
 as presented by the operators. The 
 miners' scale has not been read in the 
 convention. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The miners' scale for 
 the Seventh district will be read. 
 
 (First section read as follows: "Mt. 
 Vernon, 50 cents.") 
 
 It was moved and seconded that the 
 section be adopted as read. (Adopted.) 
 The second section was deferred. 
 
Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 23 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— There is one propo- 
 sition we can agree upon. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Do you mean 
 to give Williamson county 45 cents? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— No, sir; but we 
 agree in our scales on Jackson county. 
 "We should pass that, and then take up 
 the other section. I move that the rate 
 for Jackson county be 45 cents. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Garrison and adopted.) 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I move that the 
 rate for Saline county be made 45 cents. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Mitchell and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 rate for Williamson county be 45 cents. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Mitchell.) 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I take great pleas- 
 ure in moving a substitute, that U be 
 made 42 cents. (Seconded by Mr. Gar- 
 rison.) 
 
 (The operators voted Tes, the miners 
 voted No, and the substitute was de- 
 clared, lost.) 
 
 On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Tes, and 
 the motion was declared lost. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- 1 move that the 
 rate for Gallatin county be 45 cents. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Mitchell.) 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I should like to ask 
 for information, what mines are in Gal- 
 latin county? 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— The Equality mine is 
 in Gallatin county. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Who is running 
 that mine? 
 
 MR. HEPTI— Mr. Murray. 
 
 MR BAGWILL:— In the last conven- 
 tion it was left to Mr. Jeremiah and 
 Mr. Armstrong to settle. I don't know 
 what price they agreed upon. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I move that we 
 pass this temporarily until we can get 
 Mr. Jeremiah here. We want to treat 
 these people fairly, and not saddle a 
 price on them without knowing any- 
 thing about it. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RTAN:— If there are no 
 objections, Gallatin county will be 
 passed over for the present. 
 
 The scale for the Eighth district was 
 then taken up. 
 
 "Pulton and Peoria counties, thin or 
 lower vein, third vein conditions, 81 
 cents," was moved and seconded. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — We have something 
 to say against the scale you have made 
 here. It ought to be called the lower 
 seam or third vein. In Pottstown they 
 have now gone down to No. 1, I believe 
 Wantling ought to have that, and I 
 believe his miners are willing he should 
 have it. I make this statement so that 
 there will be no mistakes afterwards 
 about it. I think it ought to be put in 
 the Gilchrist scale; it is the same seam 
 of coal. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— What is the system 
 of mining? 
 
 MR. l^EWSAM:- They have Just got 
 into it. Tou remember that the Potts- 
 town unknown seam was spoken of in 
 the last convention. An agreement has' 
 been made since between the miners 
 and operators that it go in the Gilchrist 
 
 scale. That should be added to the 
 section. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— The price of that 
 third seam has nothing to do with the 
 seam Mr. Newsam Is talking about. We 
 are asking for a less price for this seam 
 of coal than Mr. Wantling is paying 
 for it. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I simply wanted 
 the committee to understand where 
 they should be placed. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think the mat- 
 ter of making a scale for the No. 1 vein 
 should be deferred until we go through 
 the scale. 
 
 (The motion was lost, the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Tes.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It seems strange to 
 me that the operators from that field 
 do not object to that part of the scale, 
 and yet they vote No. I think you will 
 find that the price asked here is a 
 lower price than Mr. Wantling has 
 been paying at his mine. 
 
 MR. BENT: — ^You are presenting it 5 
 cents higher than the present scale. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Newsam' la 
 only wanting to include that seam. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- Mr. Newsam says 
 there is no kick coming on the soaJe 
 the miners presented here. He only 
 wishes to have No. 1 seam included, so 
 as to settle it all at the same time. 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— W^e are not perfectly 
 willing, whether Mr. Newsam is or not, 
 to put the price on the third vein seam 
 higher than the scale we propose. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — Do you know the price 
 that has been paid there? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We know he has 
 violated the scale and we are going to 
 put a' stop to it. It is as much a viola- 
 tion of the scale to pay a higher price 
 as it is to pay a lower price. 
 
 "Pulton and Peoria counties. No. 5 
 vein, 56 cents," was moved and sec- 
 onded and accepted. 
 
 It was moved and seconded that the 
 rate for "Astoria No. 5 vein. Pulton and 
 Peoria counties conditions, 56 cents." 
 (Adopted.) 
 
 It was moved and seconded that the 
 rate for Pekin be 62% cents. 
 
 MR BENT: — I move, as a substitute, 
 that the figures "56" he inserted in- 
 stead of "62 1-3." (Seconded.) 
 
 (On the substitute the operators 
 voted Aye, the miners voted No, and it 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and it 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 "Gilchrist and Wanlock, 60 cents; coal 
 3% feet to 3 feet, 65 cents per ton; coal 
 3 feet to 2% feet, 75 cents per ton; 
 price for coal under 2% feet to be re- 
 ferred to mine committee and mine 
 manager for settlement," was moved 
 and seconded. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 that all after "Gilchrist and Wanlock, 
 60 cents," be stricken out. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes', the miners 
 voted No, and the substitute was lost.) 
 ■ (On the original motion the operators 
 
24 
 
 Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 voted No. the miners voted Yes, and 
 it was lost.) ' 
 
 "Cable, Sherard and Blossomburg', 
 Coal Valley, Lodlng and associated 
 mines, 60 cents with same conditions as 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock," was moved 
 and seconded. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 "Kewanfee, Btherly and Norris, 65 
 cents," was moved and seconded. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that that part 
 of the miners' scale referring to Ke- 
 wanee and Etherly be adopted, omit- 
 ting- Norris. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted No, and it was lost.) 
 
 "Mt. Olive, Staunton, Gillespie, Clyde, 
 Sorento and Coffeen, and mines on the 
 Vandalia line as far east as and in- 
 cluding- CoUinsville and associated 
 mines, 49 cents," was moved and sec- 
 onded. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Does the difference in 
 the wording between your scale and 
 ours involve any difference in price? 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— There is a change 
 made purposely to change the price at 
 Troy, believing the men there are en- 
 titled to the five cents on account of the 
 seam they are working in. The condi- 
 tions at Troy are exactly the same as 
 at Trenton. The change will also in- 
 clude the Lebanon mines. After a 
 thorough investigation of the matter 
 you will find it is exactly the same 
 seam; there are no differences in the 
 conditions, and the measurements giv- 
 ing the thickness of the seam will cor- 
 respond. The men are receiving- 64 
 cents at Trenton, and we believe that 
 should be the scale for Troy and Leba- 
 non. We cjianged this purposely to 
 make Troy 54 cents. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Would not that be 
 covered in the clause, "coal Ave feet 
 and under," as it stands now? If the 
 coal is under five feet it is certainly 
 protected by that clause. 
 
 MR. HEFTT:— It is true that it ts 
 covered by the scale, so far as Trenton 
 is concerned, but there have been some 
 differences of opinion as to whether the 
 vein is five feet and under at Troy and 
 Lebanon. We believe it' is, but the lo- 
 cal management there does not say 
 that it is. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— liie effect of 
 passing the miners' scale naming those 
 mines would possibly fasten that rate 
 on those mines throughout the year. 
 We know, and everybody knows, that 
 veins of coal change. It is possible 
 they are working in less than five feet 
 of coal this month, but next month they 
 are liable to be working in seven feet. 
 I think the operators' scale is the best. 
 It is a scale that can be contracted or 
 enlarged if necessary. It is a fair scale. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— The thickness of that 
 vein will not vary so that it will go to 
 six or seven feet. It was never known 
 to go to six or seven feet in Trenton. 
 
 It was always known to be five .feet and 
 under. We contend that the miners are 
 not only working at a disadvantage 
 because of the thin seam; but the 
 amount of deadwork they are com- 
 pelled to do is too much. Just over the 
 coal and under the roof you will find a 
 bone coal, and over that you will find 
 a shale or slate. That has always been 
 measured in when the mine manager 
 used to measure the coal. Therefore 
 we don't care to attempt to have it 
 measured any longer. We believe the 
 price should be established for that 
 seam, and that it apply to that seam 
 only. It is only fair when the miner is 
 working in those places, knowing the 
 amount of deadwork he has, that he 
 should have the five cents additional. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I still contend 
 the operators' scale is the only fair 
 scale for the mines named, and while 
 Mr. Hefti says the seam has not 
 changed, he nor no other man can say 
 the coal is not going to change. I know 
 In some places in this state where the 
 geological seam No. 2 is five feet thick, 
 and yet in the northern part they sel- 
 dom find it over 3 feet. If you are en- 
 titled to 54 cents you can get it by 
 measurement any time. There Is no 
 reason why you should not have had 
 it in the past if you are entitled to it 
 under the contract. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion to adopt the 
 section was lost.) 
 
 The last section of the Ninth district 
 scale read, and a motion made that it 
 be adopted was lost. 
 
 MR. MOOKSHBAD:— I now move 
 that we take up the operators' sca.le 
 seriatim. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Let me call the atten- 
 tion pf the committee to one niatter, 
 and that is whether or not you will try 
 to arrange the mining scale before tak- 
 ing up the resolutions. Personally I 
 feel it is best •to take up the mining 
 prices and settle them first, and then 
 take up the resolutions. If there are 
 no objections that plan will be followed. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- 1 arise to spealc 
 in opposition to Mr. Moorshead's mo- 
 tion. We have agreed on several sec- 
 tions in the miners' scale. Let us go 
 over it again and take up the contested 
 sections. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- The operators 
 have plainly showed the weakness of 
 the miners' scale, and I thouR-ht the 
 miners would be ready to go through 
 the operators' scale now and adopt it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think Mr. Moors- ■ 
 head's motion is all right. There are 
 two or three points In the operators' 
 scale where we can agree on the price. 
 It is the wording of your scale on these 
 sections that we object to. I think we 
 can adopt several sections In the opera- 
 tors' scale. 
 
 (On the motion to take up the opera* 
 tors' scale the operators voted Yes, the 
 miners voted No, and the motion was 
 lost.) I 
 
Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 25 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that we 
 go over the miners' scale again. (Sec- 
 onded and lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— A motion was 
 passed this morning that we take up 
 the miners' scale seriatim. The com- 
 mittee has failed to go through that 
 scale. "We started on the Seventh dis- 
 trict. I think we ought to proceed un- 
 dfer that motion and take it up from the 
 First district. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that the 
 price for Streator,. Cardiff and associat- 
 ed mines, including Toluca thick vein, 
 be 58 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I offer as an 
 amendment that the scale for Streator, 
 Clarke City, Kangley, including Tolu- 
 ca and Cardiff thick vein, 58 cents. All 
 coal four feet and under 68 cents; the 
 minimum height to be three feet. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 (On the amendment the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Tes, and it 
 was lost.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think we are pro- 
 ceeding In a rather peculiar manner. 
 Both sides agree on the price at those 
 mines. Don't let us tack these other 
 things on. Let us bring those places up 
 under a separate motion. "We all agree 
 that the price for Streator, Clarke City, 
 Kangley and Toluca should be 58 cents. 
 I don't see why you vote against that 
 motion. Your demand for those places 
 is the same as ours. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I don't see where any 
 objection can be made to the clause 
 that is added this year to our scale. 
 You bring- in a scale for certain dis- 
 tricts and set the minimum height for 
 the price. You say the coal under a 
 certain height shall be a certain price. 
 If it is right in one district, why is it 
 not right in this case. You will agree 
 when coal comes down to four feet in 
 height it ought to be more than the 
 regular scale for that vein. I ^.m cer- 
 tain when it gets to three feet there is 
 an unnatural condition there. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We want to re- 
 serve our right to discuss the matter 
 of a scale for thin coal. We are willing 
 to vote for the motion made bv Mr. 
 Taylor, providing he will agree to in- 
 sert the words, "for coal over four feet 
 in height," I therefore move tfiat the 
 scale for Streator, Clarke City, Kang- 
 ley and Cardiff thick veins be 58 cents 
 for coal over four feet. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TRAER:— The price there now 
 is 9 cents higher than similar veins in 
 any other part of the state. You have 
 not only got 5 cents, but 4 cents added. 
 As far as that is concerned you have 
 the price on all the coal, thick and all. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — That may sound all 
 right, but there is quite a difference in 
 the working of a vein of coal when it 
 becomes unnatural, when It is not the 
 regular thickness. The coal is full of 
 dirt; it will not work good; you cannot 
 mine or shoot it; it is very difBcult to 
 keep the roof up. Do you mean to tell 
 me that when that vein of coal becomes 
 
 four feet in height, and no more, it will 
 work as well as when a No. 2 vein be- 
 comes four feet in height? 
 
 MR. TRAER:— The No. 2 vein is not 
 involved in this. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— No, but your argu- 
 ment is that we have now in the thick 
 coal more than the thin coal price. 
 
 MR. TRAER:- 1 was comparing it 
 with thick coal veins in other districts. 
 I Imade no comparison with the No. 2. 
 Elsewhere in the state, in the shooting 
 coal veins, you have only asked Ave 
 cents extra for thin coal; you are ask- 
 ing 10 cents here. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— We are asking it for 
 coal 5 feet and under there. W6 are 
 asking it for coal 4 feet and under 
 here. 
 
 ' MR. TRAER:— Regardless of wheth- 
 er it is five feet or four feet, you have 
 already got a price on thin coal. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 No, tjie miners voted Yes, and it was 
 lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 scale for the third vein and associated 
 mines, Wilmington and associated 
 mines, Pontiac, Cardiff long wall, in- 
 cluding Streator and Bloomington thin 
 veins, be 81 cents, including twenty- 
 four inches of brushing. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't think It Is 
 necessary to go over the ground that 
 has always been gone over on this 
 question. The same question was up 
 only twelve short months ago, and we 
 then discussed it at great length. I 
 have not changed my mind a particle; 
 it is just the same as it was at that 
 time. W^e agreed to accept your scale 
 last year, although we did not feel that 
 we were justified in doing it. We did 
 it for the sake of peace. I believe some 
 of you have told us you gave us 4 
 cents at one time for the sake of hav- 
 ing peace. Well, we gave up on this 
 question last year for the sake of peace. 
 I don't think we well do it this year for 
 that reason. This year I am going to 
 stand by my convictions, and I think 
 the other delegates feel the same way. 
 If you can convince me that I am 
 wrong I shall certainly give up. It has 
 been clearly shown, not only last year, 
 but this, that we have right and justice 
 on our side. Last year when President 
 Mitchell talked on this question he 
 made it plain to the committee that if 
 we had kept pa"ce with the mining 
 prices, their rise and decline, in the last . 
 four years, we would today be getting 
 83% cents per ton in that field. It is 
 not necessary to go all over that ground 
 again. I am not basing my belief on 
 that at all, because what the mining 
 price may have been three years ago 
 may have been wrong or it my have 
 been right. The best proof we have 
 that our scale is just and right Is that 
 the differentials existing between the 
 Wilmington and third vein field and 
 the basing point have been fixed, and 
 yet the basing point will lie idle a large 
 part of the year while we are working. 
 
26 
 
 Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 No other part of the state shows such 
 an extensive 'coal industry as the 
 northern part of the field. No other 
 part opens up such extensive works in 
 coal fields as the northern districts do. 
 They work steadily the year around. 
 There is not another place — or at least 
 there are very few places — in the whole 
 competitive field where the men work 
 as steadily as we do. If we are idle a 
 day you will hear the operators grum- 
 ble. Tn fact, they grumble if we come 
 out of the mines fifteen minutes before 
 time to close. In the Eighth district, 
 Fulton and Peoria counties today, the 
 same vein jaf coal is paid for at a high- 
 er price than we are receiving. It is the 
 same quality, the same vein of coal, 
 and they get a larger price than we do, 
 and the people who are paying that 
 price are still willing to pay it, and 
 claim that it is just that they should 
 pay it. If they can pay it there they 
 can pay it in our field. We are closer 
 to the market than they are. If there 
 is any advantage in the freight rates, 
 we certainly have it. It is not neces- 
 sary to talk about your 4 cents. I am 
 not basing mv demands upon any 4 
 cents that we never lost. I know noth- 
 ing about that. The evidence I am bas- 
 ing my claim on is the fact that we 
 work everv day, while at the basing 
 point and in other fields they do not. 
 There is certainly a great advantage 
 enjoyed by the operators in this field 
 that is not enjoyed by the operators of 
 the balance of the state. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— That is the most re- 
 markable argument I ever heard. That 
 a miner should get on the floor of this 
 committee and ask an operator to pen- 
 alize himself is something I have never 
 heard before. In the northern field the 
 operators must work their mines stead- 
 ily in order to be able to live at all. 
 We can work steadily because we are 
 willing to go out and hustle for large 
 contracts, even at a low price, and now 
 you get up here and ask us to penalize 
 ourselves. Because we are willing to 
 go out and hustle, you use this as an 
 argument why you should be advanced. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is only so 
 much coal to be produced in the United 
 States. If the mines get their fair di- 
 vision of the trade they can only work 
 a certain number of days. If one dis- 
 trict works every day and another dis- 
 trict only works a part of the time, 
 they must be doing it at the expense of 
 the operators that do not work stead- 
 ily. If the reason the northern field Is 
 working steadily is because of their 
 lower prices, then the scale is wrong. 
 If natural conditions give them the ad- 
 vantage that probably would be all 
 right. But if it is getting steady work 
 and shipping coal in the same markets 
 that the other districts do, then it is 
 wrong. We are trying to make a scale 
 that will give all operators a fair share 
 of the trade and the men a fair share 
 of the work. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I am not mining 
 
 that coal just to give you work. There 
 have been three little mines in the Ful- 
 ton and Peoria district where they are 
 trying to work the No. 2 seam which 
 you call the third vein, and everyone 
 of them have become bankrupt in try- 
 ing to work it. It is easy to say you 
 should have 5 cents a ton. A great many 
 would be glad to have it. Now the 
 statement has been made that if the 
 men come out a few minutes before 
 closing time the operators object. The 
 day men are strong in those mines and 
 if the coal is slow in coming out the 
 operators cannot pay those wages un- 
 less they work steadily. In this 5 cents 
 between a foot of coal, if you take that 
 ground in making a price, if the coal is 
 nine feet high it should be paid less 
 than the scale. I thought we settled 
 this thing two years ago in Springfield. 
 But it came up last year, and now it 
 is here again. Every year you ask for 
 another advance. It seems to me that 
 after working on it for four years this 
 scale should be pretty nearly arranged 
 so that when we settled on a rate for 
 the state it should settle the whole 
 state. 
 
 MR. BENT: — In his remarks, Mr. 
 Perry referred to statements made by 
 Mr. Mitchell yesterday and to state- 
 ments made by Mr. Mitchell a year ago 
 in regard to the scale in northern Illi- 
 nois. Mr. Mitchell yesterday took pains 
 to connect our present scale with the 
 old Hocking Valley scale, and I could 
 follow a part of his line of thought and 
 citation of figures, though not all of it. 
 The main objection I have to what he 
 then said was that he did not pursue it 
 quite far enough. I should like to re- 
 fer this committee to the figures he 
 then gave, and show wherein they fall 
 short, in my opinion. He said that the 
 scale that was adopted when this in- 
 terstate movement was revived for 
 making the third vein field 72 cents was 
 correct, that there was no injustice done 
 and no mistake made in not conceding 
 that 4 cents which the miners had for- 
 mulated in their Springfield scale: but 
 he claims that when the advance of 
 10 cents a ton came in the east, and 
 when on account of this state being out 
 of line a fiat advance of 3 cents 
 mine-run was made and that was 
 based upon 40 per cent of screen- 
 ings in the Danville district, and 
 our northern field, having a smaller 
 percentage of slack, should have an ad- 
 vance of 8 cents a ton. The discrep- 
 ancy I intend to show is not one of a 
 cent or two, so we will call it 8 cents. 
 
 Assuming that Mr. Mitchell was cor- 
 rect — and I by no means admit it — our 
 scale should have been SO cents instead 
 of 72 cents at that time. Instead of 
 advancing us to 76 cents mine-run, Mr. 
 Mitchell would have had it 80 cents. I 
 wish to call "the attention, of this com- 
 mittee to the fact that northern .Illi- 
 nois has two competitors. It competes 
 on its contract business, its cheap coal 
 business, which, on account of the liigh 
 
Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 27 
 
 cost of our coal we do substantially 
 without profit, with other coals in Illi- 
 nois and with Indiana coal, especiaJly 
 of late years. With the prices that are 
 set on Illinois and Indiana coal in the 
 Chicago market, the railroad price we 
 get in the interior is based — upon what 
 these coals bring to the same roads 
 generally in the Chicago market — and 
 we are unable to get away from the 
 -basis there fixed. We also have com- 
 petition with the east, Ohio, Pennsyl- 
 vania and West Virginia; but notably 
 on Hocking Valley in the northwest on 
 our domestic business. Insofar as we 
 are not governed entirely by the con- 
 ditions in the west, we are governed by 
 the cost of coal in the Hocking Valley. 
 The coal we compete with is not 
 coal produced at 80 cents a ton — which 
 is the Hocking Valley rate — but almost 
 exclusively coal produced on a machine 
 mining rate of 56 cents a ton. That c oal 
 goes to the lakes in the summer, vnd 
 we sell our coal in the fall and winter 
 against it. I have a little knowledge of 
 the conditions in the Hooking Valley, 
 and the comparatively unimportant 
 mines that are paying 80 cents a ton do 
 not compete for this business and do 
 not send their coal across the lakes to 
 the northwest. 
 
 Assuming that the 7 cents dlfEerential 
 on machine mining is a just and fair 
 one — which I do not admit — the proper 
 cost of machine coal in the Hocking 
 Valley is 73 cents a ton; in other words, 
 from the standpoint of the miners' po- 
 sition here, Hocking Valley coal which 
 we compete with in the northwest Is 
 being produced at 17 cents less than 
 the scale you yourselves say Is proper. 
 Assuming that we should be paying 80 
 cents a ton but for this machine ques- 
 tion that I speak of, instead of 76 cents, 
 and allowing for the 17 cents which 
 they are producing their coal less than 
 it should be produced for, as you say — 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— The difference in 
 the differentials between Illinois and 
 Ohio is not the difference between 7 
 cents and 24 cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I will correct that. Our 
 mining price should be in the third 
 vein field 63 cents if ours was a 
 screened coal basis instead of a, mine- 
 run basis. We are paying today 13 
 cents more a ton, on the miners' argu- 
 ment, than we ought to be paying, less 
 the differential between the screened 
 coal and the mine-run. How much 
 would that be in the Hocking Valley? 
 How much would it be, allowing the 
 four cents we are today paying and dis- 
 regarding the five cents' advance you 
 are asking for? We are paying 8 cents 
 per ton more than we ought to be pay- 
 ing against the coal we are competing 
 with in the northwest. These argu- 
 ments cannot be disputed. Aside from 
 the question of the history of scales — 
 coming down simply to the question of 
 competition and what we need — we are 
 not successfully competing with the 
 Hocking Valley in the northwest, and 
 
 there is no northern Illinois operator 
 that does not know that to his cost. 
 
 R3ven this last year, when the market 
 conditions for Pennsylvania and Ohio 
 have been unusually favorable, our 
 coal has been driven back and more 
 Hocking coal has been shipped through 
 Chicago and by ferry than usual, and 
 that condition exists today. 
 
 Mr. Perry and Mr. Mitchell have both 
 spoken of the fact that we have had 
 good work in northern Illinois the last 
 couple of years; and they assume — 
 quite wrongly — that that is at the ex- 
 pense of other fields in the state. We 
 are prepared to show that we are los- 
 ing business in all of the competitive 
 raarkets. We can show that we are 
 losing business in the Chicago market. 
 The official figures show that quite 
 clearly. We are losing business as 
 against the eastern coals in the north- 
 western market. Why, then, have we 
 been running exceptionally well for the 
 past two years? Simply because of the 
 prosperous conditions within this state, 
 arid the prosperous condition of the 
 railroads and the large volume of busi- 
 ness they are doing. If you should take 
 away from northern Illinois the in- 
 creased tonnage it has had from roads 
 whose business it has always had, you 
 would find that northern Illinois had 
 not increased its tonnage. These roads 
 are large buyers of coal, and when the 
 increased tonnage to them goes down, 
 you will find that northern Illinois will 
 be short in her tonnage. The time is 
 not far away when we will not be able 
 to compete in common markets with- 
 out a reduction. We said a year ago it 
 would be impossible for us to get for 
 our contract coal the prices we were 
 getting at that time; we said we did 
 not see how we could carry safely that 
 4 cents for another year. The condition 
 was just what we predicted. These 
 large contracts are always taken on a 
 snjall margin, but they are taken on a 
 smaller margin probably in the thin 
 veins of northern Illinois than in any 
 other district, because our coal Is so 
 expensive that our cost of producing it 
 is away out of line, even allowing for 
 freight rates, and the railroads will not 
 pay the premium which we claim the 
 difference in the quality of the coal 
 would justify; hence we have to take 
 these contracts very close to cost, and 
 sometimes at cost, and sometimes even 
 below, in order to get work in the 
 spring and summer to hold our men to- 
 gether. No money would ever be made 
 in northern Illinois if it were not for 
 the coal sold during the busy season, 
 not under contract. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I know there is 
 no one who knows better than Mr. Bent 
 does the old scales that were made gov- 
 erning the price of mining in the en- 
 tire central competitive field. I think 
 he will agree with me that there never 
 has been a time in the last 25 years 
 when the prices between the Hocking 
 Valley, Indiana and northern Illinois 
 
28 
 
 Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 have been as fair as they are now. 
 During the old interstate movement, 
 when the only operators from Illinois 
 who were represented in the Interstate 
 convention were those from the north, 
 they went there and agreed themselves 
 upon a differential between the Hock- 
 ing Valley and the thin vein of north- 
 ern Illinois of as high as 35 cents a ton 
 on screened coal. At the present time 
 the scale is only 8% cents between the 
 Hocking Vallej"^ and northern lUinoils on 
 screened coal. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Ours Is mine-run. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— On screened coal. 
 Tou are paying now 88% cents for 
 screened coal; they are paying 80 cents 
 in the Hocking Valley, and for years 
 and years, by agreement, with your con- 
 sent, you paid as much as 30 and 35 
 cents a ton more than was jiaid in the 
 Hocking Valley for screened coal. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— At that time the 
 price in Chicago was one dollar be- 
 tween that coal and the Hocking Val- 
 ley, by agreement, in the selling price. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I only know the 
 mining price. 
 
 MR. BENT:— There are two other 
 answers that occur to me. One is that 
 the original base scale was grossly er- 
 roneous, and northern Illinois found it 
 out to Its cost, and after struggling for 
 a time with it withdrew from the inter- 
 state movement on that account. When 
 the interstate movement was first or- 
 ganized Hocking Valley had just 
 emerged from a very disastrous strike. 
 Prices were very low. We started in 
 to form an interstate movement with 
 those unnatural conditions, and the 
 movement, very naturally, went to 
 pieces. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not basing 
 the prices on that condition. If I were 
 I should have said 50 cents, 
 
 MR. BENT:— We went in still with 
 northern Illinois on an abnormally high 
 plane and Hocking Valley on an ab- 
 normally low one. We attempted to 
 stand it, and failed. The second an- 
 swer is that lake charges since that 
 time have declined more on the eastern 
 coal than the 30 and 35 cents you speak 
 of. The rates are now about one-half, 
 and sometimes less than one-half, what 
 they were at that time. They are 30 
 and 35 now, as against 75 cents to a 
 doUar'then. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Taylor said 
 yesterday that when the convention 
 met in Streator in 1897 the operators 
 agreed to go home, take off their coats 
 and try to get the trade Hocking Valley 
 had taken from them. He showed by 
 his argument that they did get the 
 trade back, and got more than they lost 
 for they increased their tonnage in the 
 mines controlled by the Wilmington 
 field up to 600,000 tons. They secured 
 that increase after reducing the men 
 17% cents a ton in the winter and 10 
 cents a ton in the summer. After mak- 
 ing that reduction they brought the 
 mining price down so low they could 
 
 compete with anybody in the market. 
 If that placed northern Illinois as low 
 as any other district, then from that 
 time on the mining price in northern 
 Illinois should have advanced as many 
 cents a ton as any other district. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Our contracts are based 
 on the prices in Chicago. The freight 
 rates to Chicago from both Indiana 
 and Illinois mines have been pared 
 away since that time. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We don't know 
 what the freight rates are. The oper- 
 ators of northern Illinois have repeat- 
 edly told the conventions that they can- 
 not sell coal in Illinois. They say they 
 are driven out of Chicago, out of Jolist, 
 and every market in Illinois, and are 
 compelled to sell their coal outside of 
 the state of Illinois. If that is true, 
 their increased tonnage Is not due to t 
 increased prosperity in Illinois. If 
 they have secured markets outside of 
 the .state, they have secured them 
 from fields outside of the state. 
 
 MR. BENT: — That is what we chal- 
 lenge. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Taylor said 
 in the Indianapolis convention that the 
 tonnage of Illinois had decreased In 
 the Illinois markets. He has time and 
 time again showed the loss of tonnage 
 in the Illinois markets. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Taylor has not 
 said we were selling less coal to the 
 few railroads in northern Illinois; I 
 think we are selling more. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Taylor said' 
 last year you had lost tonnage on the 
 great railroads in Chicago. 
 
 MR. BENT: — That is true in Chicago, 
 but not in the interior. Our increase 
 lies in one item — ^we have gained ton- 
 nage to our own railroads in the in- 
 terior of Illinois. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- The Chicago, Mil- 
 waukee & St. Paul took for <a great 
 many years twenty-five carloads a day 
 for use in Chicago. That has been taken 
 off, and now they are' taking coal at 
 their outside junctions, and more than 
 ever before. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— From the prices 
 made by the operators themselves (and 
 they certainly made them themselves 
 in the spring of 1897, because the miners 
 were not able to resist the reduction 
 made by the operators), I should say 
 if that was a fair relative basis as be- 
 tween all the competitive fields, then 
 the prices of mining in northern Illinois 
 should have advanced as much as they 
 did in other fields. They were entitled 
 to an advance of twenty-four cents on 
 screened coal, they were entitled on 
 run-of-mine to the difference between, 
 less the amount of 17% for screenings. , 
 The price in northern Illinois would be 
 higher now, even if we were to agree — 
 which we will not do — that you have 
 20 per cent of screenings. The most 
 exaggerated statements you have ever 
 made have not claimed more than 20 
 per cent of screenings. 
 MR. n.WID DAGON:— Our reason 
 
Morning SBSsion, February 26. 
 
 29 
 
 for asking an advance Is that we can 
 be put on a basis so that all the oper- 
 ators can have a fair show when it 
 comes to selling. There are some of us 
 in the Wilmington coal field who will 
 not gain one cent on this. Our brush- 
 ing does not exceed 24 inches In some 
 of the mines in the Wilmington fleld. 
 This will only benefit them where they 
 have deficient work. The operators 
 have to be satisfied that they have to 
 pay extra for this work. It is only at 
 their own option that they do it now. 
 In the Wilmington fleld in some mines 
 they pay as high as 11 cents for defic- 
 ient w^ork. We ask that this be put on 
 an equal basis. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Bent and Mr. 
 Taylor, I have no doubt, know that the 
 mining price In the entire United States 
 is higher now than ever before in the 
 history of coal mining, except in north- 
 ern Illinois. There was a period, I be- 
 lieve, of two months in the last twenty 
 years when the Hocking "Valley paid 80 
 cents a ton. Northern Illinois for a 
 great many years paid 90 cents a ton. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Do they pay 80 cents 
 now in the Hooking Valley? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They pay It on 
 the pick-mined coalr but I am not go- 
 ing to ' say that there is much pick- 
 mined coal there. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That destroys the ar- 
 gument. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It does not; for 
 all your coal Is not sold against Hock- 
 ing Valley coal. Every district in Il- 
 linois and every district in Indiana, 
 Ohio and Pennsylvania, as well as 
 Iowa, Missouri and every other state, 
 are paying today the highest mining 
 price they ever paid, while northern 
 Illinois is paying a cent and a half less 
 than they paid thirteen years ago. They 
 paid 90 cents a ton all the year around 
 for screened coal; now they are paying 
 88% cents. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Every fleld we compete 
 with, except the competitive fleld — that 
 is, Indiana and Illinois — is, and Ohio 
 and Pennsylvania is not, because we 
 know the lake coal is not 80-cent coal; 
 we know it is 56-cent coal, and that is 
 true of western Pennsylvania and the 
 Hocking Valley. They are the two 
 largest competitors Illinois has, and 
 they have 56-cent coal instead of 80- 
 cent coal. That is the competition we 
 have with our contract coal, except on 
 our contracts at home in Illinois. We 
 are not filling any tonnage that other 
 parts of the state have enjoyed in the 
 past. We are holding our own tonnage 
 in the state, and the price of coal in 
 Chicago makes us take an insufllcieht 
 price on that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not going to 
 accept your figures on the machine- 
 mined coal.' That was not a correct 
 statement. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I admitted the correc- 
 tion and struck off five cents. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If vr^at Mr. CuttS 
 has said is true there is some Cost to be 
 
 charged up to the machines, and they 
 deny that seven cents is a right cost. 
 If that is so, you must make an allow- 
 ance for equipment and maintenance of 
 machines. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Will you correct your 
 figures i:^ I correct mine? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Great stress has been 
 laid on the fact that you haye lost trade 
 in Chicago. Isn't it true that If you 
 had maintained the trade in Chicago 
 you could not have taken the trade 
 you have? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The argumentabout the 
 trade being lost in Chicago is a year 
 old. The trade is still Jost; |but we 
 have made up that in tonnage to our 
 own roads in the interior. ' We have 
 made it up on account of the larger 
 consumption of our own roads in the 
 interior. 
 
 MR. PERRY :^Isn't It true that the 
 reason you lost it in the first place, 
 is because you got a better market for 
 your coal? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We coiUd not meet 
 the prices there. We could not dig the 
 coal for the prices we could get there. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — It seems to me strange 
 that vour coal is mined and sold on 
 such margins, and you tell me It is 
 almost Impossible to run your mines. 
 I gather that from your talk. You say 
 your profit is very small. 
 
 MR. BENT:— On the large contracts. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Take your mine, for 
 instance, Mr. Bent, and you say your 
 profit on contract coal is very small? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Yohr mine is equipped 
 and is run about as good as any other ' ' 
 long-wall mine in northern Illinois. If 
 that be true, how do those mines run ^ j 
 and maintain their trade and work 
 every day whose cost in producing coal 
 is very nearly 10 cents a ton more than 
 yours? If your profit is not 10 cents a 
 ton, how can those people pay 10 cents 
 a ton more for their coal than you do? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Either they cannot, or 
 they have local trade, rar some other 
 advantages. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It costs the Seaton- 
 ville mines 10 cents a ton more to put 
 their coal on the cars, and they have 
 contract coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- Take the Mar- 
 quette coal, for instance. They bring 
 the coal on the Rock Island road and 
 transfer it at Spring Valley, which, I 
 understand, costs them fifteen cents, 
 and they still sell an enormous amount 
 of coal in the northwest. If they can 
 pay a transfer charge of fifteen cents 
 a ton and still sell their coal, it seems 
 to me. the mines that do not transfer 
 get at least a profit of fifteen cents, 
 even if the Marquette mines sell their 
 coal at cost. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do they pay that? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do the railroads trans- 
 fer coal for nothing? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— No; but some of the 
 roads absorb that charge in their 
 freight rates. 
 
30 
 
 Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: —What object 
 would that road there have in absorb- 
 ing that rate? 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— That is what Mr. 
 Dalzell wants to know. The Milwau- 
 kee & St. Paul and the Northwestern 
 are competitors In almost ev^ry town 
 in the northwest. In their anxiety to 
 get competitive business out west they 
 take care of the Marquette coal; and 
 if a dealer in a town wants that coal 
 they absorb that charge. Of course 
 Mr. Dalzell kicks about it, but the road 
 stands it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They could have 
 the same tonnage to haul by hauling 
 Spring Va,lley coal as they could by 
 transferring this coal. 
 ' MR. TAYLOR:— They could if they 
 handled the same line of business Mr. 
 Dalzell does. If they do not handle it 
 some other road would. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There are several things 
 about this we do know. No one believes 
 15 cents a ton is paid by the Marquette 
 people" in getting on to the North- 
 western road. Marquette coal is not 
 getting on the Northwestern road suc- 
 cessfully on contract business. It i=! 
 principally for business that is not con- 
 tracted, which commands a price, and 
 there is more fall and winter coal than 
 any other. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The papers pub- 
 lished a statement a year ago saying 
 that Marquette took a contract of 50,000 
 from the Spring Valley mines for the 
 Northwestern road Itself. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The Marquette mines 
 have been referred' to. They ought to 
 have a representative present to answer 
 these' things. If it is true that they took 
 this 50,000 tons, it must have been sur- 
 plus coal. I think the doal as a whole 
 is merchant coal. The situation on that 
 road. is wholly different from any other 
 road. We are not claiming that Spring 
 Valley suffers from lack of business: 
 we are claiming that conditions 
 there tend to prevent an equalizing of 
 the tonnage that exists in the third 
 vein field. The field that I come from 
 has sold coal to the Northwestern road 
 for a generation. For years after the 
 Spring Valley mines were opened we 
 sold more than ever. We have run two 
 days in the week when Spring Valley 
 was running five, when times were bad. 
 The Marquette coal goes in on a low 
 switching charge. We are so far away 
 from the Northwestern road that our 
 rate would be 50 cents, which is more 
 than the 15 cents for transferring; but 
 this does not have any bearing what- 
 ever on the main point at issue. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- We have only one or 
 two mines on the price you have given, 
 and yet they run. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Sweet is here and 
 will answer that. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Why is it 'that the 
 operators bring in a scale every year 
 and present it to us, demanding that 
 men shall take care of their roads? I 
 want to be emphatic on that one thingr. 
 
 If I am convinced that I am wrong, I 
 will give up. Unless I am convinced, 
 I will not give up. I cannot see the 
 justice, and I have failed to ever see 
 the justice of demanding that one man 
 keep a road that will take one whole 
 day a week to do it, and another man 
 keep a road that 'will not take more 
 than an hour a -week. And you tell me 
 that that is a just condition! We con- 
 tend that we are not asking for a 5-cent 
 raise all over the district. We do ad- 
 mit that the scale ffre brought In is 5 
 cents higher than last year in the third 
 vein. It is not 5 cents in the W^ilming- 
 ton field. Perhaps in many cases 
 miners do not even take twenty-four 
 inches of brushing; but the injustice 
 comes in where cne man takes twelve 
 inches of brushing and another naan 
 will take four feet or eight feet 
 of brushing in getting out the same 
 number of tons of coal. If it is 
 just for me to mine coal and 
 take six or seven feet of brush- 
 ing, it "would be just for the other 
 man to do just as much work as I in 
 the same mine for the same tonnage 
 price. If it is just for me to take only 
 twenty-four inches of brushing to 
 get my coal, it is only fair 
 that the other fellow only 
 take the same amount. There must be 
 something done to stop this discrimin- 
 ation between the workers. One man 
 should be worth as much as the other 
 so long as he performs as much work. 
 In the Wilmington field, were you to 
 pay so much] a ton for the coal, based 
 on a rate per inch for the amount 
 brushed, some men would mine the coal 
 up there for 40 cents a ton, while others 
 are getting 81 cents a ton. Were you 
 to deduct from the price of mining coal 
 a certain amoum per inch for the 
 amount of brushing each man does, it 
 would leave some men mining that ooal 
 at 40 cents a ton. Think of a man tak- 
 ing six, seven and eight feet of brush- 
 ing, and maybe going back three hun- 
 dred feet to keep the roadway. I am 
 s-urprised that the people of that dis- 
 trict have stood it as long as they have. 
 I would leave and not work there if H 
 wa? my case. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— You don't mean to 
 say they go back three hundred feet. 
 They limit the distance to seventy-flve 
 yards. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is two hundred 
 and twenty-five feet. The plan is all 
 right on paper; but when the pit boss 
 loses his plans in his sleep and next 
 morning the distance is wrong, what 
 are you going to do? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— When one of the 
 miners overlooks anything like that 
 there is something wrong with him. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— In the beginning I 
 stated that I did not base my claim 
 upon what the Hocking Valley price is 
 today, or what it was in '97 or '94. I 
 don't think that would be a fair way 
 to base a scale, even if It were to en- 
 title us to $2.00 a ton. It has been said 
 
Morning Session, February 26. 
 
 31 
 
 Repeatedly that this movement is for 
 the purpose of giving each place an 
 equal chance in the market. If the 
 prices that existed in those times were 
 right for those times, they might be all 
 wrong for today. Markets have 
 changed, transportation has changed; 
 it may have cost more to transport 
 coal from this point or that than it 
 does today. I don't consider that what 
 the scale ought to have been then lias 
 anything to do with the making of a 
 scale today. It is whether the scale 
 that exists today is a competitive scale; 
 whether or not it is a just scale to the 
 miners and the operators of the differ- 
 ent fields. I contend that It is not and 
 cannot possibly be, from the fact that 
 you gentlemen get all the markets and 
 we get all the work, while the fellows 
 in the southern part of the state get 
 little of the market and little of the 
 work. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— On that line 
 of argument you would advocate the 
 reduction of the mining rate where they 
 only work half time. 
 
 MR. PERRT:^— If a certain mining 
 rate exists in this state as against a 
 basing point that gave the basing 
 point the advantage, I would say cut 
 down our price. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do they work more 
 days at LaSalle than they do at Dan- 
 ville? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— They did for the past 
 year. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR— On account of lack of 
 business or on account of lack of cars? 
 I have not heard an operator complain 
 of business in those districts. They do 
 complain of a lack of cars. Col. Sweet 
 went into the Virden field, and he has 
 orders, but the C. & A. has failed to 
 handle his business. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — ^I don't suppose any 
 of us are in a position to say anything 
 about that. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— You may go into 
 any of the railroad offices this winter 
 and you will find the operators there 
 waiting for cars. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- It is strange that we 
 got cars in this field while they did not 
 in the others. "We have the same roads. 
 The Illinois Central goes down through 
 
 tTl^ c + a + p , 
 
 MR. BENT:- We don't sell them any 
 coal. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — The Northwestern has 
 facilities to get the coal from the cen- 
 tral part of the state. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— They furnish cars 
 for Spring Valley, because their main 
 supply comes from there. I was speak- 
 ing of the C. & A. road. Up to last 
 month the Milwaukee & St. Paul road 
 took a largre amount of business from 
 Our northern field and put it south on 
 the C. & A., and they had 'to send five 
 engines off the Milwaukee & St. Paul 
 road to haul their own coal away. This 
 is a matter of public record. They, 
 have simply not handled the business. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Our volume of business 
 
 comes from those few roads who buy 
 their engine coal from us. We are get- 
 ting foreign cars for engine coal, and 
 we would be running very light but 
 for those cars. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— These same companies 
 furnished the same roads cqal last 
 year? 
 
 MR. BENT:- Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do you mean to tell 
 me the business of those few roads has 
 increased 400,000 tons? 
 
 MR. BENT:— We had a good volume 
 of business last year. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Have they increased 
 400,000 tons? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't question that. 
 
 MR. TRAER— It is quite possible. 
 The Milwaukee & St. Paul probably use 
 2,000,000. tons a year. The C, B. & Q. 
 use 2,000,000 tons of coal a year alto- 
 gether. It isn't a very big increase on 
 the proportion of coal those roads take 
 from northern Illinois. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Are the Northwestern 
 and the Milwaukee & St. Paul handler 
 to your market than to northern In- 
 diana? 
 
 MR. TRAER:— They are handier geo- 
 graphically, but not in the cost of coal. 
 They have taken a thousand tons of 
 coal a day from the Virden field, and 
 have sent their own engines and cars 
 to get it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You admit they have 
 increased the tonnage from the north- 
 ern field this year? 
 
 MR. TRAER:— We did not say they 
 got it all. We included the Great Wes- 
 tern, the Q., the Rock Island and other 
 roads. We didn't say they took it all. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We have lost over 
 100,000 tons in business this year. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't see why it 
 takes more days to mine a less amount 
 of coal In that field than was mined 
 last year. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I work for the 
 Chicago & Virden Coal Co., and re- 
 peatedly Mr. Lukens and the superin- 
 tendent has told us the reason they 
 were running slack was on account of 
 northern Illinois taking their business. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Lukens will not say 
 that In this room. There is nothing to 
 base such a statement on, and Mr. 
 Lukens would not make it without 
 data. 
 
 MR. SEATON:— I work down in the 
 C. & A. sub-district. Mr. Taylor says 
 the coal trade is so lively down there 
 that other roads have to send their 
 engines In there to get the coal away 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:-That is not what I 
 said. I said they were blockaded and 
 the Milwaukee road had to send their 
 own engines to get their own coal. 
 
 MR. SEATON:— Mr. Delehanty says 
 the operator at his place claimed the 
 northern Illinois operators are keeping 
 them out of their market, and he oper- 
 ates all the heavy mines there, with one 
 exception. I stand here and make the 
 assertion that in that one mine we have 
 not had enough work until the last 
 
32 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 26. 
 
 thirty days to keep us alive and out of 
 debt. If this surplus of coal is coming 
 from that section, I don't know where 
 it is. The company I speak of is the 
 Greenridge Coal Company. 
 
 The committee adjourned H meet at 
 1:30 p. m. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., Feb. 26, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called to order at 
 1:30 p. m., by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Just before adjourn- 
 ment there were questions asked relat- 
 ing to the cause of irregular work at 
 mines on the Alton tracks. The oper- 
 ators from that field were absent. The 
 question of the cost of coal at Seaton- 
 ville was also up. I request that the 
 record in regard to the C. & A. mines 
 be read for the benefit of the operators 
 from that field who are now present. 
 
 (The record was read by the stenog- 
 rapher.) 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty Is 
 mistaken in that statement. I know 
 Mr. Delehanty well enough to know 
 that he would not make a statement of 
 that kind unless he thought he was 
 telling the truth; but he certainly has 
 got mixed in it in some way. I did 
 not make the statement he credits me 
 with, because It is not true, and I am 
 not in the habit of making statements 
 unless they are true. Work was very 
 slack in the C. & A. sub-district last 
 summer, the worst we have ever had. 
 I think a large share of that was on ac- 
 count of the miners in some of the 
 mines sending out such, a poor grade 
 of coal that we could not sell it. We 
 told them last spring if they didn't give 
 us a better grade of coal we would lose 
 our business. That came true. The 
 people who burned the coal objected to 
 It and wouldn't take it: but the trade 
 didn't go to northern Illinois. The C. 
 & A. road has been In very bad shape 
 as to power. Their engines have played 
 out on them. Fifty per cent of their 
 engines are In the shops at times. They 
 are doing a little better lately, and w?^ 
 hope they will continue to move In that 
 direction. They have given us very 
 poor service. 
 
 (The record in regard to the Seatun- 
 ville mines was read.) 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I would like to ;isk 
 Mr. Perry a question. How does he 
 know the Seatonvllle coal costs more 
 put on cars than Oglesby coal? Pe:' 
 haps he has some Information I have 
 not got. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Cherry, who is the 
 superintendent of the Seatonvllle mines, 
 told me his coal cost at least 10 cents 
 a ton more than 'any other contract 
 mine in northern Illinois. Not only 
 that, but I have taken it from the 
 mines. I was through the mines, and I 
 judge that no other coal mine of any 
 extent has the conditions that Seaton- 
 vllle has in the long wall in the v/ay 
 of water and cost of maintaining roads. 
 
 I might give a longer answer, but I 
 think that is sufficient. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I hardly know what 
 to say In regard to Mr. Cherry's mak- 
 ing such a statement as that, but I 
 don't think he made it. I don't like to 
 dispute Mr. Perry, but I don't think 
 Mr. Cherry would give away any such 
 information as that. Mr. Cherry knows 
 no more than I do what coal costs in 
 other mines. I don't think that kind 
 of a statement ought to be considered 
 valid argument in this case. I know 
 we have conditions that make our coal 
 cost us more than the coal at some of 
 the other mines in the district. I know 
 In the Spring Valley mines, where they 
 areproducing twelve or fifteen hundred 
 tons a day out of a shaft they probably 
 can produce their coal cheaper than we 
 do. But that Is no reason Tvhy we 
 cannot stay in the market and do bus- 
 iness. We are doing business, I can tell 
 Mr. Perry, if he wants to know. This 
 morning It was said that because we 
 furnished them with steady work we 
 must have some advantages that other 
 people do not have. Mr. Perry must 
 know that if we run the Seatonvllle 
 mine half time the coal would cost us 
 $2.00 a ton. He knows we must keep 
 working steadily. Those are some of 
 the conditions in all of the northern 
 field. That is in answer to some of the 
 arguments this morning, that because 
 the northern Held ran steadily they 
 must have advantages over the other 
 fields. Mr. Ryan and Mr. Mitchell and 
 all who have worked in the northern 
 field know that the operators there 
 must have a certain amount of busi- 
 ness for their mines In the sumra-?r- 
 tlme, or else it will cost them a great 
 deal more than they can get for their 
 coal. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't wish to leave 
 the impression with Mr. Sweet or any- 
 one else that Mr. Cherry has been giv- 
 ing away secrets about the business. I 
 don't think I ever met a man who tries 
 to be more fair than Mr. Cherry. He 
 simply made that remark In a casual 
 way. We had some dispute over there 
 about something or other— I don't re- 
 member what— and I requested that 
 certain things be done. In the conver- 
 sation Mr. Cherry said: "Mr. Perry, 
 you know that this mine Is a very costly 
 one to run." I think we were speaking 
 about getting water out of the places. 
 He said: "It cosrts at least ten cents 
 more a ton to get the coal out of this 
 mine than it does out of some of the 
 others, and we are doing our best to 
 keep the water out." Mr. Cherry ask- 
 ed me to go down in the mine and look 
 at It, and I did so. I agreed with the 
 assertion he made; I think it must 
 cost ten cents more a ton to get that 
 coal out than any other mine I have 
 ever been In; but I still maintain that 
 If thev are doing business on such a 
 close margin, I would like to know how 
 you can run a mine so much more 
 
Afternoon Session, February 
 
 33 
 
 costly than the mines which have bet- 
 ter conditions— and they claim they can 
 hardly run because the margin is so 
 close. I don't believe any man puts his 
 money into the business tor sentiment. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— When he has 'his 
 money in the Ijusiness what is he going 
 to do? 
 
 MR. BENT:— This discussion has 
 demonstrated the fact that neither Col. 
 Sweet nor Mr. Perry nor Mr. Cherry 
 nor myself are able to make that com- 
 parison. I don't know what it costs to 
 produce Seatonville coal. Neither does 
 Mr. Perry. I will state that unless it 
 is a very temporary condition, I don't 
 believe Oglesby coal costs ten cents less 
 a ton to put It on the car than that 
 property. If It did that property would 
 not be operated; it would have to be 
 abandoned; there is no ten cents a ton 
 in the business. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— If Mr. Bent will 
 find out how many company men it 
 takes to run the Seatonville mine, he 
 will find out about how much it will 
 cost, comparing the amount of coal 
 produced by that mine and his own. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What does the cost of 
 production in any particular mine have 
 to do with making the scale? 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I am willing to con- 
 fess that the Seatonville mine is not a 
 Klondike by any means. There is no 
 great profit in it, Eind df I knew as 
 much at t'he time I went in there as I 
 know today, I certainly never would 
 have invested that money there. But 
 if Mr. Perry is trying to fasten condi- 
 tions on us here that he knows we can- 
 not operate the mines under, for the 
 purpose of trying to close that mine, he 
 will succeed If he is enabled to fasten 
 the conditions on us. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I am not trying to get 
 conditions that will close down any 
 mine. Far from it.^ But when operat- 
 ors make the statements that have been 
 made here, that there is no profit in 
 running the mines and paying the min- 
 ing prices paid at present, I certainly 
 have a right to have It made clear to 
 me how such diverse prices and condi- 
 tions of producing coal exist, and yet 
 that statement be true. I maintain that 
 that is not the only place where such 
 conditions exist. In the Eigth district 
 some of the mines have been running, 
 and are running now, but they produce 
 coal from the same vein you are pro- 
 ducing from, and they ship it Into Rock 
 Island and Galesburg and pay 90 cents 
 a ton for mining it. They are farther 
 from their markets and have more com- 
 petition than you have, because when 
 they go into Rock Island and Gales- 
 burg they meet more competition than 
 you do. for you practically rule the 
 market where you sell your coal. 
 
 MR. NEWS AM:— I don't think it is 
 much to our credit to try to make a 
 scale in this way. However, as the 
 gentleman has brought up the small 
 mines in our district, I shall say some- 
 thing on the question. I made the 
 
 statemerxt this morning that everyone 
 who had been operating mines In, that 
 seam of coal was bankrupt. I will re- 
 fer Mr. Perry to a mine where today 
 the miners have not got their pay, and 
 cannot get it, for mining the^ coaJ. It 
 is easy to set a price. There isn't a 
 dollar being made in the Peoria district 
 nor hasn't been, with your No. 2 seam. 
 You cannot show a place where it is 
 made by paying that price, and it can- 
 not be paid. I wouldn't want to put a 
 price on any seam where the miner can- 
 not get his pay. I don't think there is 
 any credit in making this scale. I 
 don't like this way of making' a scale. 
 We ought to get at it and make it with- 
 out this kind of work. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I have lived In the 
 third vein field all my life, and this Is 
 the first time I knew that the third vein 
 coal in the First district controlled the 
 Davenport and Rock Island markets, 
 or was a factor there, or that we could 
 compete with the ' Peoria coal in these 
 markets. No coal man thinks so. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Those mines that 
 have been shipping this coal and pay- 
 ing 90 cents a ton for producing it do 
 go into Rock Island and Galesburg, and 
 with the exception of one mine they 
 pay their men, and the manager of that 
 mine has a reputation for beating his 
 men everywhere he goes. When Mr. 
 Newsam says that these men are run 
 out of business because they are not 
 paying their men, that isn't so. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD: —What Mr. 
 Newsam says is true. That mine has 
 been bankrupt twice In the past few 
 years. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— That is not the only 
 mine to take into consideration; there 
 are other mines that have been work- 
 ing under the same conditions that did 
 pay their men. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Will you tell me 
 what mine that is? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Wantling's mine. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Is he at work at 
 that mine? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— He has worked out 
 that mine and has opened another mine. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The man has gone 
 as far as he can go. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What did he pay 
 a higher price than the scale for? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — Sometimes you get 
 hold of a horse's tail and you would 
 like to let go, but you can't. He is 
 simply like you and I in that case — 
 he went as long as he could with the 
 expectation of doing better. I don't 
 want to bring this any further into 
 the committee. Every mine that has 
 had to pay that price has been a, fail- 
 ure. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is it not a fact 
 that the price in No. 5 seam is too low,. 
 and they can take his trade? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- No, the conditions 
 in No. 2 seam are different. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Wantllng 
 paid a higher price than the scale pro- 
 
34 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, February 26. 
 
 vided for his mines. He did that to 
 keep men there, not because he wanted 
 to g-ive the miners a higher price, or be- 
 cause he was able to get a large trade. 
 The men could not make as much 
 wages at the scale price in his vein as 
 they could in No. 5. If he is bankrupt 
 it is his own fault, not the fault of the 
 scale. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— The point I am 
 making is that any man who tries to 
 pay that price in that vein will be 
 bankrupt. 
 
 MR. EDWARDS:— The fact of the 
 matter is that Mr. Wantling has quit 
 there because his coal is worked out. 
 . MR. BENT:— We ought to remember 
 that we are discussing the First dis- 
 trict, not the Eighth district. The 
 only relevancy is that we say the third 
 veins in the First district are not in 
 competition with the third vein in the 
 Eighth district in Rock Island and 
 Davenport, and that the third vein In 
 the First district Is not a successful 
 competitor with the Eighth district. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— Does not coal from 
 the third vein go into Galesburg? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Replying both to Mr. 
 Beattie and the Chair, this debate Is 
 on the discussion -just before noon, 
 which was on the northern Illinois 
 scale, and on the statements of the 
 gentlemen in regard to Seatonville coal, 
 and the statements in regard to Daven- 
 port and Rock Island. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- The motion before the 
 house when we adjourned was voted 
 on and lost just after dinner. There 
 Is no motion before the house. 
 
 MR. BEAT'ipiE:— I should not have 
 asked that question except for the re- 
 marks made by Mr. Bent. He said it 
 had been shown that the .competition 
 does not come from the tinrd vein of 
 the Eighth district. That is why I 
 asked the question. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Beattie is con- 
 veying a wrong impression. There is 
 no third vein coal going to Galesburg 
 in competition. I understand Mr. Dug- 
 gan shipped a few cars in there this 
 winter. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— What about To- 
 luca? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Toluca is not third 
 vein. They may have shipped in 
 their thick coal, but they never ship- 
 ped their third vein coal. 
 
 MR. BEAT'j.iE:— When we made the 
 scale for Etherly, it was said the To- 
 luca coal came in there, and that they 
 had a contract of twenty flats a day. 
 MR. DUGGAN:— If we had we lost 
 it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It Is safe to say that 
 Galesburg is not a market for the third 
 vein coal from the First district. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is safe to say the 
 third vein of the First district is not 
 In competition with the third vein of 
 the Eighth district, speaking as a broad 
 pronositlon. 
 MR. TAYLOR:- 1 believe you voted 
 
 down a resolution of mine this morn- 
 ing that Streater, Cardiff and associat- 
 ed mines, including Toluca thick vein, 
 be given a rate of 58 cents. 
 MR. RYAN: -That is correct. 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you that 
 Streator, Cardiff and associated mines, 
 including Toluca, Kangley and Clarke 
 City, be 58 cents. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't think we 
 ought to vote that motion down. I 
 feel we will make progress here by 
 fixing that mining price. If the miners 
 have some other conditions they wish 
 to impose upon those mines, let them 
 take them up separately. We should 
 not hold up the mining price In order 
 to tack on some other conditions. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand in 
 some Streator mines the coal Is quite 
 low, and that they are paying the 
 miners by the day far mining work. 
 We don't want a stale made here that 
 is going to fasten this mining rate up- 
 on that deficient work. 
 
 MATT CHARLTON:— W^e have one 
 particular place across the river where 
 we have a local agreement that is pend- 
 ing. It applies to Barrackman's mines. 
 The local agreement was made by Mr. 
 Smith and Mr. Barrackman, and pro- 
 vides that coal under three feet shall 
 be paid for by the day. I think it 
 would be perfectly satisfactory if you 
 referred that back for (settlement. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— If I understand the 
 delegate from Streator, there is some 
 particular place where they want the 
 thin coal price to be fixed by local 
 agreement. I don't think that this is 
 a valid reason for holding up two or 
 three districts on the mining price w^hen 
 we both agree on what is the proper 
 mining price. I don't know anything 
 about the particular case spoken of. 
 We have a price for deficient work, and 
 if that is deficient work, it can be paid 
 at that price. I don't think the dele- 
 gate thinks that himself. 
 
 MR. CHARLTON:— I think the price 
 of 58 cents is all right for coal that runs 
 six feet, but where the coal is only 
 four feet, provision has to be made to 
 protect the miners. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Are there not some 
 exceptions in almost every mine in the 
 state? I don't think you desire to 
 hold up the entire settlement for that 
 district because there is a mine across 
 the river where the coal Is not as thick 
 as it is in the other mines. Let us set- 
 tle the mining price and then bring 
 those other questions up. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is there any other 
 place In the Streator mines where the 
 coal Is less than four feet thick? 
 
 MR. CHARLTON:— The Kangley 
 mine is thin coal, room and pillar work. 
 MR. PERRY:— Is there any objection 
 to Brother King having something to 
 say on this question? He seems to be 
 better acquainted with the conditions 
 under which they have been working 
 than any one else. Would there be any 
 
Afternoon Session, February 26. 
 
 35 
 
 objection to his having a word to say 
 on this Question? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I take it for grranted 
 that the operators have a right to send 
 out and get any operator they wish 
 before this committee; the miners 
 have the same privilege. 
 
 MR. KING:— We have a mine in 
 Streator where the highest coal Is about 
 four feet. It is Mr. Barrackman's mine. 
 It Is room and pillar, and very dirty, 
 with lots of water. It pays five cents 
 extra on the ton for coal three feet, 
 nine inches and three feet and a half. 
 Below three feet they pay $2.28 a day. 
 That scale was made two years ago on 
 the 2nd of April. Mr. Barrackman was 
 advised to do this by the operators, 
 and did it. At least he went in another 
 room and drew up a scale along that 
 line with Mr. Smith, then they came In 
 and the operators were satisfied. At 
 least they made no objection to his pay- 
 ing that scale. This is a shipping mine, 
 the same aa the other mines there. 
 Last year at the beginning of the con- 
 tract year, Kangley delegates came to 
 that meeting. They asked for pay for 
 low coal. In that mine they used to 
 have a high vein of coal. Now they 
 have lots of it down to four feet and 
 three and one-half feet. The Star Coal 
 Company's representatlveo there de- 
 manded some gay for mat inferior 
 work, but were told they could not get 
 anything there, that under the national 
 settlement they could not get a cent. 
 There are no differences In the condi- 
 tions now. They used to have coal six, 
 seven and eight feet high, but now it 
 has gone down to four feet. We claim 
 this ought to be settled here so that 
 they can not tell us again that they 
 will not give us anything because the 
 rate was fixed at the national. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do I understand you 
 to say that the coal in the Kangley 
 shaft is four feet high? 
 
 MR. KING:— It is that and less. It is 
 reckoned to be a five-foot veto. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Is that the average 
 height^' 
 
 MR. KING:— It is reckoned to be five 
 feet and a half. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do you mean some 
 room, or is that the average of the vein 
 in Kangley? 
 
 MR. KING: — I don't make this state- 
 ment. There is some coal five feet and 
 some three feet. It is for the low coal 
 we want this extra pay. 
 
 MR TAYLOR:— In some places it is 
 down to four feet and in some places 
 it is up to the standard? 
 
 MR KING:— Tes, sir. What we hold 
 is that If Mr. Barrackman ait his small 
 mine, and so taiuch water to contend 
 with, and can still go into the market 
 and hold his trade and pay this extra 
 price, then surely the Star Coal Com- 
 pany can do the same thing. 
 
 MR TAYLOR:— Of course we know 
 that Mr. King's statements are correct 
 in a way, but they are misleading. 'The 
 Barrackman mine is the smallest mine 
 
 in Streator. It sells about ninety per 
 cent of its coal in Streator and the very 
 near surrounding country. It is not a 
 competitive mine. They do not seek 
 the market that the other mines do. 
 They went out and made a separate 
 settlement for that mine. The operat- 
 ors did not object to that. Everybody 
 knows it is a deficient mine. I am not 
 contending that any settlement you 
 have made with Barrackman is a cor- 
 rect settlement, but that is no argu- 
 ment why the other mines should be 
 penalized. If Mr. Barrackman did the 
 straight thing with you, that is no 
 reason why the other mines should be 
 penalized. Because you have a mine 
 that is deficient, you should not hold 
 up Streator, Kangley and Clarke City. 
 We must stop this if we are going to 
 make a scale. Let 'us agree on a mining 
 price, and then we can bring up our 
 outside extraordinary conditions and 
 settle them. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We would like to have 
 a statement from Mr. Clay in regard to 
 the height of the thick-vein coal in the 
 Kan,gley mines. 
 
 MR. CLAY:— There are about four 
 hundred men working in there, and to- 
 day there are not twenty places that 
 will come up to the scale rate we are 
 scaled at. In some places where you 
 strike the soapstone top, but it is run 
 in now about two miles, there is a mile 
 and a half of rope from the engine to 
 the wheel, and it is run into the same 
 condition the Barrackman mine is. As 
 you go out on the prairie the coal gets 
 thinner. , 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What thickness is It? 
 
 MR. CLAY:— You might get twenty 
 rooms in the mines that will average 
 from four feet ten inches to five feet; 
 the balance is from four feet to three 
 feet. We ought to have something ex- 
 tra on account of that low coal. A 
 man caii produce twice the amount of 
 coal with a keg of powder in five foot 
 coal that you can in this; hence he has 
 twice the expense, and the company 
 get the benefit if they make anything 
 on their powder. Not over twenty 
 rooms in those mines will average five 
 feet, and yet we are scaled on a five 
 foot vein of coal. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Is it not a fact that 
 Kangley mine is practically done? 
 
 MR. CLAY:— That has been claimed 
 for the past four or five years, but it is 
 still working. 
 
 MR. TAY'LOR:- 1 agree with Mr. 
 Clay. I sell the coal for the Kangley 
 mine, and every month or two they are 
 going to close up. They are working 
 on a 40-acre tract now. (That and the 
 Barrackman mine across the river have 
 these extraordinary conditions, and you 
 are asking us to hold up the whole 
 district on account of them. Tou are 
 talking about one old shaft about to 
 quit, and another little shaft across 
 the river where they have a local settle- 
 ment. 
 
AFTERNOON Session, February 26. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Will you exempt 
 Kaijgley in order that we may take It 
 UP later for discussion? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I will withdraw this 
 motion and renew the one I made this 
 morning, leaving out Kangley. I want 
 Mr. Rathbun to make a statement 
 here. 
 
 MR. CLAY:— I helped sinl; both the 
 shafts that are across the river. When 
 the Kangley shaft was sunk it was 
 sunk on six feet of coal, but It went off 
 in wedge shape, and when they 
 got about a quarter of a milei 
 from the bottom of the shaft 
 there was ten feet between the 
 two veins. When they got across 
 the river the veins run together again. 
 I brought this up in our sub-district 
 meeting, but they could not do any- 
 thing with it because nothing was done 
 about it in the state meeting. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I hope you don't un- 
 derstand me as opposing bringing this 
 up. I think it should be brought up 
 and gone over thoroughly, but I object 
 to tacking all these little deficiency 
 questions on to the other mines and 
 holding up the whole scale for the dis- 
 trict. 
 
 MR. CLAY: — The clause relating to 
 thfs in the miners' scale only caJls for 
 a certain price under certain condi- 
 tions. If you have not those conditions 
 to contend with you will not have to 
 pay. It will not tie anyone up if the 
 scale presented by the miners is adopt- 
 ed. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I now move that 
 Streator, Cardiff and associated mines, 
 including Toluca thick vein, be 58 
 cents. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- 1 move that the 
 scale for Streator, Clarke City, includ- 
 ing Toluca and Cardiff thick vein, be 
 58 cents. The difference between your 
 motion and mine is that we leave 
 Kangley out. The purpose is to take 
 it up as a separate item on the scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The miners have 
 been making a particular kick about a 
 mine at Streator. Barrackman's mine 
 is at Streator. Your motion would set- 
 tle that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I say "thick 
 vein." I don't think anybody is going 
 to call that three foot coal a thick vein. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Then why take it 
 up? Let us pass it as we have always 
 passed it, and take these other cases 
 up on their merits. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I make the mo- 
 tion because Mr. Taylor says we are 
 tying up the district for these two 
 mines. Now we are cutting them out. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— That would be a very 
 bad precedent, to pick out a couple of 
 mines and leave them out of the settle- 
 ment. The operators will oppose that. 
 We never had any trouble in taking up 
 these special cases. As far as Kangley 
 is concerned there may be a few rooms 
 under five feet. There is low coal at 
 Barrackman's, but our people claim 
 
 there is no such condition as you say 
 there is at Kangley. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 that coal four feet and under be re- 
 ferred back to the sib-district for ad- 
 justment. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The intention of your 
 amendment is that it is only intended 
 for the thick vein in the First district. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. TRAER: — I move to amend by 
 making the words "four feet" read 
 "three feet." (Seconded). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We won't agree 
 to that. We have several districts in 
 Illinois where they pay five cents ad- 
 ditional for coal five feet or less, and it 
 is rather strange that in the Streator 
 field where they have some veins that 
 run up to eight and nine feet and some 
 that run down to three feet, that we 
 should make the limit three feet in- 
 stead of five feet. I think our motion 
 should carry without opposition when 
 we make it four feet. I don't think 
 the operators would ask us to mine coal 
 in the Kangley mice that ..s only fooir 
 feet for the same price as the five foot 
 vein. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Is it not strange that in 
 the Streator field where tnere is coal 
 seven and eight feet thick the mining 
 price is not 49 cents? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The conditions of 
 mining are not the same. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The conditions at 
 Streator are absolutely the same as 
 they are at Danville. No. 6 and No. 
 7 veins show at Danville and at Streat- 
 or. At Danville they are working two 
 veins of coal. Some work No. 6 and 
 some No. 7, and the samie is true at 
 Streator. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They don't work 
 three feet of coal at Danville. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— They don't at 
 Streator. When we made this scale 
 the operators imposed a penalty upon 
 Streator because of their nearness to 
 the markets. They are paying that to 
 keep on a competitive line, and the 
 miners benefit by it absolutely. I 
 know and you know, that the Streator 
 miners are the best paid in Illinois. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I never said it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— If there are such 
 conditions at Barrackman's as have 
 warranted making a sidi greement, I 
 have no doubt he will make it again. 
 If the conditions have changed from 
 eight feet to four feet without any 
 trouble, I think any such radical change 
 can be settled between the operators 
 and the miners themselves. I don't 
 think we should let the conditions at 
 one little old mine, that has always 
 been settled outside of the committee, 
 hold up the scale here. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It seems very 
 strange to me that the operators of the 
 Streator field, when they themselves 
 have not disputed the statements made 
 here that one mine upon one side of the 
 river was working in four- foot coal and 
 
AFTERNOON Session, February 26. 
 
 37 
 
 ( 
 
 the other in eight-foot coal, will pay 
 58 cents for eight foot coal and then ask 
 the miner -to come down to three feet 
 ■before giving him any extra compensa- 
 tion for it. In the Danville field one 
 vein is six feet and the other is seven 
 feet, with the exception of one mine — 
 Mr. Cutts' mine, in the Danville field 
 at Fairmount, which runs from live 
 feet to four. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do you believe that 
 the coal in the Kangley shaft has come 
 down from eight feet to four feet on 
 the average? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't know that 
 I understand the statement to be that 
 that was the average. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The statement was 
 that there were four hundred men in 
 the mine and only about twenty places 
 were above four feet. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If the coal has 
 not gone down to four feet why are the 
 operators afraid to pass our motion? 
 We are willing to substantiate our in- 
 formation by referring it back, and if 
 it is not four feet or less we do not get 
 any pay. We are willing to let it go 
 back and have the extra price deter- 
 mined upon there. I myself don't un- 
 derstand how coal goes down from 
 «ight feet to four feet; but if it has not 
 gone down, then these men do not get 
 any extra pay for it. 
 
 MR. TRAER:— Would it not be as 
 fair when the coal goes over seven 
 feet that we should ask for a reduction, 
 as that you should ask for an advance 
 when it gets below four o. Ave feet? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No. the price is 
 "based on the thickest coal we can find. 
 (On motion to adopt Mr. Traer's 
 amendment, the operators voted Yes, 
 the miners voted No, and it was lost). 
 (On Mr. Mitchell's amendment to re- 
 fer back for local settlement, the oper- 
 ators voted No, the miners voted Yes 
 and it was lostl. 
 
 MR. TRAER:— We are willing to 
 make one more effort. I don't think 
 there is anyone but Mr. Rathbun miss- 
 ing from that field. I think this is the 
 best place to settle the matter. We are 
 willing to make one more effort to get 
 together. We will make it three and a 
 Tialf feet: we will meet you half way. 
 I move that the scale on all coal three 
 and one-half feet and under be referred 
 Ijack to the sub-district for settle- 
 ment. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that ac- 
 tion be deferred upon the question of 
 a scale for the First district, or on the 
 motions now pending. (Seconded and 
 
 adopted), ., . .. „ 
 
 MR TAYLOR:— I move you that the 
 scale for Williamson county be 42 
 cents. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to strike 
 out the words "forty-two" and insert 
 the words "forty-five." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR, PluABODr:-I think, Mr. (Chair- 
 man Williamson county wbuld vote for 
 that if President Mitchell could give 
 
 any good reasons for making such a 
 motion. , 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If I were to get 
 up and tell you about all the street car 
 lines you are building through south- 
 ern Illinois out of the profits of the 
 Williamson county mines they might 
 be good reasons. The question of prices 
 in Williamson county has been a bone 
 of contention for the past £our years. 
 No county In Illinois has increased Its 
 product as much as Williamson county 
 has. Mines have been developed there 
 at a more rapid rate than in any other 
 county. I intended to quoie Mr. Pea- 
 body at the national convention, but I 
 did not care about calling tne attention 
 of the entire national to his methods of 
 doing business; but as long as we are 
 here in Illinois, I want to quote som? 
 of the statements that appeared in the 
 Chicago papers sometime ago. Mr. 
 Peabody's Company was bidding on the 
 school board contracts for coal, and 
 from the statement it appears that he 
 took the contract at a dollar a ton 
 less than the price of the contract a 
 year before. 
 MR. PEABODY:— I will admit that. 
 MR. MITCHELL:- A year ago Mr. 
 Peabody said in the convention that 
 they could not make a living in Will- 
 iamson county if the price was made 
 forty-five cents. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I did take that con- 
 tract at a dollar a ton less than the 
 year before, but it was on Indiana 
 block coal. I do not see that there is 
 the slightest bit of argument in what 
 Mr. Mlitchell has said. The only state- 
 ment that Mr. Mitchell has made that 
 warrants a reply is the tonnage ques- 
 tion. He makes a statement that the 
 tonnage has increased this year over 
 last. . ^. . 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I did not say that. 
 I said there was not a county in the 
 State of Illinois that showed the in- 
 crease in production that Williamson 
 county has. I don't know about this 
 year, because I haven't the data for 
 this year. I do know that from year to 
 year Williamson county's increase in 
 output has been in greater proportion 
 than any other county in me State or 
 Illinois. , ^ , _^ 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— In last years re- 
 port page 27, you will find statistics 1 
 furnished to the scale committee ait 
 that time. This report I made from 
 my own figures. 
 
 MR RYAN:— Were they the same 
 figures you furnished to the bureau of 
 statistics at Springfield? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— No; I don't think 
 they were. I requested the coal traffic 
 manager of the C. & E. I. Railroad to 
 give me some figures on Williamson 
 county this year, which I should like 
 to have made a part of the record of 
 this year's scale committee. "These 
 figures date from April 1 to February 
 15 1901, and from April 1 to February 
 15' 1902, making it as complete as I 
 
38 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 26. 
 
 could for the scale. It shows that the 
 total tonnage on our side of the county 
 is five thousand tons less this year than 
 last year. The C. & B. I. took 68,000 
 tons in these ten months last year, 
 this year they took 42,000 tons. These 
 are official figures made by the coal 
 statistician of the railroad where I 
 operate. Notwithstanding the fact 
 that three new large mines have been 
 opened up, our No. 3 mine, the new 
 Virginia mine, and the Chicago and Big 
 Muddy mine. There are three large new 
 operators in our end of the district, y«t 
 the output for the past seven months Is 
 5,000 tons less than the same period last 
 year. One mine has gone into the 
 hands of a receiver during the year, 
 and I don't think an operator in the 
 eastern end of Williamson county has 
 made a penny during the past year. As 
 I said befoi;e— and I have said it a great 
 many times in these meetings — if the 
 , miners can show any good reasons 
 from a competitive standpoint, or from 
 any other logical standpoint, why 
 Williamson county should pay that ex- 
 tra 3 cents, we will pay it. 
 
 (Copy of document read by Mr. Pea- 
 body). 
 
 "Chicago, 111., February 22, 1902. 
 Mr. F. S. Peabody, 
 
 President Southern Illinois Coal 
 Mining & Washing Co., Chicago, 
 111. 
 
 Dear Sir: — Answering your attached 
 letters regarding coal toimage from 
 Williamson county: 
 
 Following is tonnage of all the mines 
 located on C. & E. I. R. R. in William- 
 son for periods as requested. I have 
 also given the distribution, showing the 
 amount of company coal used by C. & 
 
 B. I. from your district, coal to the 
 south and southwest and commercial 
 coal north of Marlon, this latter in- 
 cludes all coal billed to all points north 
 of Marion for commercial use. 
 
 April 1, 1900, to February 15, 1901: 
 
 Total tonnage 347,613 tons 
 
 Distribution : 
 
 Tons. 
 
 C. & E. I. R. R. Company coal. 68,050 
 
 Coal to south and southwest 31,550 
 
 Commercial coal north of Marion. 248,013 
 
 Total 347,613 
 
 April 1, 1901, to February 15, 1902: 
 
 Total tonnage 342,191 tons 
 
 Distribution: i 
 
 Tons. 
 C. & E. I. R. R. Company coal. 42,817 
 
 Coal to south and southwest 37,874 
 
 Commercial coal' north of Marion 261,500 
 
 Total 342,191 
 
 , (Second sheet). 
 
 Coal tonnage February 15, 1901, to 
 April 1, 1901, omitted from first sheet 
 for purpose of exact comparison of 
 same periods: 
 Total tonnage 57,328 tons 
 
 Distribution: 
 C. & E. I. R. R. Co. coal 4,040 tons 
 
 Coal to south and south- 
 west 950 tons 
 
 Commercial coal north of 
 Marion 52,328 tons 
 
 Total 57,328 tons 
 
 Tours very truly, 
 
 A. J. LBINBN, 
 Coal Statistician. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— A year ago you 
 came to the convention and said you 
 could not pay the three cents because 
 you were not doing a profitable busi- 
 ness. Since that time, by your own 
 statement, you have sold your coal 
 from thirteen to sixteen cents less than 
 you did the year before, and yet you 
 have sold your output and the output 
 is increasing. , 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — If the tonnage has 
 increased In the western end of the 
 county, undoubtedly there is good rea- 
 son for it. In our end of Wilmington 
 county the tonnage has been increased. 
 
 In regard to your statement that we 
 are selling the coal for from thirteen 
 to sixteen cents a ton less, I thought 
 we had an understanding between our- 
 selves that you were not to refer to 
 that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I didn't under- 
 stand there was any such agreement 
 between us. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— We have been 
 averaging from twelve to thirteen cents 
 a ton less for our coal this year than 
 last, and are still operating our mines. 
 What conclusion do you draw from 
 that? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There are two 
 conclusions I can draw — either that you 
 are losing money or you were maldng 
 a profit last year of thirteen or four- 
 teen cents a ton. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I think the first 
 conclusion is the correct one. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't believe 
 you operate your mines at a loss. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:- Then you don't 
 know me. We are operating the mines 
 at a loss in the eastern end of the 
 county. I think when we get our 
 washer in operation we will be able to 
 make a profit. I have been operajting 
 my mines for the last six months, hop- 
 ing to get them in shape soon to make 
 a profit. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you mean to make 
 the statement that you are operating 
 your mines at a loss? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I have been oper- 
 ating my mines at a loss for the past 
 six months. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Was It on account 
 of building a washer? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Or the railroads? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— There are a great 
 many reasons why. One of the reasons 
 is the one Mr. Morris has given — the 
 railroad situation. I have not been 
 able to get sufficient cars to take the 
 coal. My profits would have been in- 
 creased had I been able to get sufficient 
 cars, and my net selling price would 
 have increased. 
 
Aftbrnoon Session, February 26. 
 
 39 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Why should you 
 have a lower rate in Williamson 
 county, as against Jackson and Saline 
 counties, when you are sandwiched in 
 between the two? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Do you want me 
 to go into the statements of freight 
 rates that I have been giving here for 
 years ? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— If you are going 
 the malte the old statement, no. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I can add nothing 
 new to them. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Is it not a fact that 
 your No. 1 mine was shut down last 
 year entirely? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I think it Is; yes, 
 all last year and the year before. I 
 am not sure when we did shut It down. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— In regard Ito the 
 No. 3 and the New Virginia.how much 
 coal can they put out? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— We are putting 
 out in No. 3 about 500 tons a day. I 
 cannot tell abouit the New Virginia. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL: — How long have you 
 been doing that? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I don't know ex- 
 actly. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I don't think that 
 has put out much coal. The mine has 
 not been working steadily. It does not 
 cut much Hgure in the output of coal 
 this year over last. Tou must have 
 meant that you hadn't the business. If 
 the railroad companies had not been 
 short of rolling stock y^u would have 
 operated your mines nearly full time 
 this year. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— That is true of 
 practically every mine in the state of 
 Illinois. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Not every mine. 
 
 MR. RT AN:— That is not in line 
 with the statements of other operators 
 made here today. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I don't always 
 agree with other operators. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — Mr. Lukens made a 
 different statement. 
 
 MR. PEABODT: — We have not al- 
 ways agreed. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Have you a 
 southern outlet for your coal? 
 
 MR. PEABODT: — ^We have a south- 
 western outlet and a southeastern out- 
 let. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Two years ago 
 you said when you did get a southern 
 outlet for the coal there was a possi- 
 bility of the mines in that county being 
 in a better position to meet the prices 
 in the surrounding counties. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I have always 
 been of an optimistic temperament in 
 looking into the future. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We would be 
 glad to realize some of your hopes. 
 
 MR. W. T. MOTTIS:— I would like 
 to ask Mr. Peabody, when he makes 
 the statement, he makes it on the por- 
 tion of the county in which he is di- 
 rectly interested, and the question be- 
 fore the committee is the county as a 
 whole, is it not? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Tes; surely it is. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I make this state^ 
 ment so that we may not get confused, 
 and give weight enough to Mr. Pea- 
 body's statements to defeat the motion 
 that Williamson county should pay 
 forty-five cents. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— My figures are all 
 made from the eastern end of William- 
 son county. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— A year ago Mr. Pea- 
 body told the same story. He said 
 then, as he says now, that if good 
 reasons could be shown why William- 
 son county should pay that three cents, 
 he would pay it. I think no better 
 reasons could be given that were given 
 here a year ago; but they were not the 
 reasons he wanted and would accept 
 ' before granting Williamson county a 
 rate of 45 cents. I don't believe any 
 arguments would be accepted by him 
 that we could produce, no matter wiiat 
 the facts were. In the figures he j^ave 
 he showed an increase into the south- 
 ern markets of 2,000 tons. A year ago 
 you stated that you sold 35,000 tons in 
 those fields, now you state you sold 
 37,000 tons there. We claim that while 
 the freight rates may be higher to the 
 markets in the north and northwest, 
 you enjoy a good positon in regard to 
 the south, southeast and southwest. 
 Taking that into consideration it bal- 
 ances the conditions regarding freight 
 rates. 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— Tou '.mean jdo you, 
 that the rates are higher to the north? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— While his competi- 
 tors may enjoy a favorable freight 
 rate to the north, he enjoys the same 
 privilege to the south. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— We enjoyed a 
 slightly better rate to the south be- 
 cause they were getting us better 
 equipment. It is the Cotton Belt Road. 
 They sent cotton lup on the C. & E. 
 I. Road, and they loaded these cars 
 with coal. In regard to the freight 
 rates south, I don't know what the 
 other districts get, but I am sure the 
 rate from Saline county is lower than 
 from our county. Perry county, I 
 think, is the same going south, while 
 going north Perry has ten cents a ton 
 less rate than we do. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I 'don't understand 
 how it is that freight rates for a cer- 
 tain number of miles north should be 
 so much different from the same num- 
 ber of miles going south. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:^We don't under- 
 stand it either. We have been asking 
 that question of the railroads for years, 
 and they have given us no logical rea- 
 sons why it should be so. That is a 
 question I cannot answer, Mr. Morris. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— In getting rates to 
 ship a carload of any product going 
 south one hundred miles, we know we 
 pay a less freight rate than going two 
 hundred miles south. Is it not a fact 
 that in the distribution means for 
 transportation is in a great measure 
 
40 
 
 AFTBRNOON Session, February 26. 
 
 the cause for your product being as 
 small as it is? 
 
 MR. PBABODT:— I think I stated 
 that. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Then if you could 
 get transportation you could find a 
 market for the full product of your 
 mines? 
 
 MR, PBABODY:— We could have 
 found a market foi- more coal than we 
 sold. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Practically for the 
 full product of your mines? 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — That is your state- 
 ment; it isn't mine. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Two years ago and 
 one year ago the statement was made 
 that all was being paid that could be 
 paid to the miners in that county. 
 Since that time statements have been 
 made that a less rate has beeij taken 
 on contract coal, even to the amount of 
 fourteen cents a ton. If a less rate 
 could have been taken on contract coal, 
 the miners during the period you re- 
 ceived that much more than you are 
 receiving now could have been paid 
 forty-five cents a ton, could they not? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— Will you allow me 
 to make a correction? You said I had 
 taken fourteen cents a ton less on con- 
 tract coal. I did not make that state- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— You said you had 
 sold coal at fourteen cents a ton less 
 than the year previous. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:- Yes; but it had 
 nothing to do with contracts. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I am satisfied that 
 we cannot make any headway this 
 afternoon, for there are several dele- 
 gates from Williamson county who 
 are not here, and they desire very 
 much to appear before the scale com- 
 mittee when Williamson county is be- 
 ing discussed. I don't know where to 
 find them now. In view of that fact 
 I move you that Williamson county 
 be made a special order of business 
 for 9:30 tomorrow morning. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- We would like to 
 have a continuous record of the Wil- 
 liamson county discussion. I have 
 sent fqr some statistics, and we Tvould 
 like to have them made part of this 
 record. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I will withdraw 
 my motion. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— In the past two 
 or three years a 'great many argu- 
 ments have been offered why this rate 
 in Williamson county should be forty- 
 five cents. I think we can make good 
 all we have Said in reply to these argu- 
 ments, and add something more at this 
 time. I shall not deny that there lias 
 been considerable development in Wil- 
 liamson county. Some of the people 
 who have taken part in this develop- 
 ment wish now they had not com- 
 menced it. We know some of them 
 Who have lost money. We don't intend 
 to run our mines when we have to run 
 them at a loss. As a whole that county 
 
 has probably done some increa3ed 
 business. A number of the operators 
 controU their own cars. They have 
 gone into the car business to keep their 
 men employed. .We have, to a very 
 large extent. All over the State of 
 Illinois, and especially in the southern 
 part, and I think a large part of the 
 north, the admission will be made that 
 cars are short. We have run better 
 than we otherwise would because we 
 have had cars to a large extent. We 
 are now arranging for a further supply 
 of cars. In the CartervlUe district 
 parties there also control their own 
 cars. Not enough to keep them busy, 
 but a sufficient number to fill In many 
 idle hours. That being true, if we ware 
 in a position to ship our coal, why 
 shouldn't we do, so? I know that in 
 Williamson county and in other coun- 
 ties if there had been a sufHcient num- 
 ber of cars we could have run practi- 
 cally all the time. We have enjoyed a 
 trade in the south. That, however, is 
 leaving us. We are meeting oil in the 
 south, and many of our southern con- 
 tracts we never renew. Seventy -five 
 thousand ton that we delivered there 
 in the past year we have no hope of 
 contracting for during the coming 
 year. Our trade in the southwest and 
 in Arkansas will be largely lost. Coal 
 is coming in from districts in Arkansas 
 at less rates than we can furnish it, 
 owing to lower freight rates. At one 
 time we. enjoyed the same rate of 
 freight, but we no longer have it. The 
 Illinois Central has practically adopted 
 the policy of shutting us out of that 
 field. A large portion of the coal ship- 
 ped there was small coal. If the opera- 
 tors of Williamson county had not 
 expended large amounts in erecting 
 washers they would not be in it today. 
 They cannot sell small, unwashed coal; 
 it won't bear the transportation to the 
 markets. We pay now, as we did last 
 year and the year before, the highest 
 rate of freight to the markets where 
 we send our coal. We have talked this 
 matter over very carefully. We fig- 
 ured out what we could do; and I 
 might as well tell you now as later 
 that we cannot grant the advance. We 
 would rather go idle than attempt to 
 pay more than we are now paying. 
 That is not a hasty conclusion. We 
 have looked into each other's accounf;. 
 and have examined them carefully, 
 and if you 'put anything more than 
 forty-two cents on us those mines will 
 be idle. I don't know that I need 
 take up any more of your time. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't know 
 that there is very much use of going 
 into a lengthy discussion of the affairs 
 of Williamson county as long as the 
 operators there have decided they are 
 not going to make any change ifi >he 
 price. Mr. Garrison has been quite 
 positive in his statements; but it is 
 rather a peculiar condition down therf- 
 that we have practically our choice of 
 working at this price or not Working 
 
Afternoon Session, February 
 
 41 
 
 at all, particularly as Williamson 
 shows an enormous Increase 4n ton- 
 nage. There isn't a county in Illinois 
 that shows such an increase In tonnage 
 as Williamson county does. If it is 
 increasing at such a rate there must 
 be a cause for it. It is not that they 
 have natural markets that they can 
 enter without injuring anyone else. 
 Every ton of Williamson county coal 
 shipped north is sold in competition 
 with coal mines in the state. What- 
 ever tonnage they have that does not 
 meet Illinois coal is what they have in 
 the south, going over the Cotton Belt 
 Road. That coal meets coal mined 
 in our districts. There has been 
 an increase of the price of the coal in 
 Missouri, and in coal mined in all the 
 southern states, except in Alabama, 
 and this Coming year Alabama will 
 mine coal at a maximum rate. Of 
 course you know that the mining price 
 in Alabama is on a sliding scale, and 
 Is based on the selling price of pig iron. 
 All of this year Alabama coal has been 
 at its maximum price, so that William- 
 son county, if it ever could have got 
 into the market at an advantage, oiuld 
 have done so the past year. I am riot 
 going to exhaust myself discussing a 
 proposition that is settled and is not 
 subject to change, no difference what 
 "we say. It appears to me, however, 
 that there is not going to be a satis- 
 factory settlement in Illinois as long 
 as two counties are paying forty-flve 
 cents a ton for mining coal, and be- 
 tween these two counties Is another 
 that is only paying forty-two cents a 
 ton. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— They have re-, 
 duced the rates of freight in Alabama 
 on the L. & M. Road tb points wh'ire 
 we have been doing business. They 
 have reduced the rate to Memphis, 
 where we have had a good trade, at 
 least twenty-flve cents a ton. We tried 
 to get this rate, but we could not do 
 it. That trade in the south is now 
 leaving us. The outlook is anything 
 but bright in that section. W^e think 
 it only right to tell you , exactly the 
 way we feel about it. This is not a 
 hasty, conclusion that we have arrived 
 at; we have gone into the inatter vaty 
 carefully and thoroughly. I feel that 
 unless we can run our properties at a 
 reasonable profit we ought to keep 
 quiet' and not "work out our coal. Wo 
 cannot afford tp. That coal will be 
 gone in a few years. If we do not get 
 a fair return from it. what will our 
 stockholders think of us? We are 
 forced to do this. We cannot make a 
 reasonable profit at any higher rate— 
 I wish • we could. 
 
 I gave you reasons why we had made 
 a tonnage down thel-e. Other distrtota 
 in the state cannot show the same 
 expenditures for modern improve- 
 ments, washers, arid such thiftgs. Not 
 many of thein have expended as much 
 money as has been expended by us to 
 treat that small coal. We canhot ship 
 
 any lump coal to the north; it is onlv 
 this small coal that has been treated 
 at a considerable expense that is 
 shipped north. If we were competing 
 largely with others on the same kind 
 of coal we would feel differently, lut 
 we are not. We Iwould not be in it 
 at all were it not for the shipments rf 
 washed small coal. I knovy that people 
 have gone there — you know that is 
 often the case in business — and' there 
 has been and is over-development. I 
 think you will find that to be the cass. 
 I have made no thl-eats in what I have 
 said. I do not want you to take it 
 In that way. What I have said has 
 been the result of a very careful in- 
 vestigation, and it is a business 
 proposition. If you increase this min- 
 ing rate in Williamson county you will 
 put our margin where we cannot make 
 a fair return on the capital invested. 
 I claim we have a right to a fair return 
 on our investments. You know that 
 the men in Williamson county can 
 make good wages. If they are not 
 making good wages I would not feel 
 this way; but they are, and we felt 
 it our duty to tell you just where we 
 stood. I am now speaking alone for 
 Williamson county. 
 
 MR. W^. T. MORRIS:— I made a 
 statement a year ago which I shall now 
 repeat. I think the operators' asso- 
 ciation realized a year ago, and I think 
 they realize it now, that Williamson 
 county was three or more cents below 
 the rate that she should pay, from the 
 fact that they presented a proposition 
 to us, and it again appears, that would 
 decrease the cost of producing coal in 
 districts that are their Competitors. 
 If a rate of forty-two cents in William- 
 son county was fair In 1900 and fair 
 in 1899, then a proposition to decrease 
 the cost of production in other districts 
 that are their competitors would he 
 placing Williamson county In an Un- 
 fair position now. To me that proposi- 
 tion of the operators is evidence that 
 Williamson county has enjoyed an un- 
 fair position. In other words, if the 
 agreement carried out will lessen thfilr 
 cost three cents a ton. I refer to the 
 deadwork and timber questions. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— We have rhe 
 facts before us, Mr. Morris, as to what 
 we -can do. i 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I am stating 'tlje 
 position of the association. 
 
 MR. bent': — The position of the 
 association, as I understand it, is that 
 various districts in the state had go! 
 aWay from the proper scale base 
 through abuses In regard to deadwork 
 and timber which had crept in .since 
 we framed our scale base, and at- 
 tempts were liiade a year ago, and are 
 being made here today, to rectiiC j>- things 
 that were never intended by our asso- 
 ciation, and ought never to have been 
 accomplished by your organizatlflh. 
 The scale base the assoeiation has ap- 
 proved of linanitaously. 
 
 Mil. RUSSELL:- 1 don't se6 thP 
 
42 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 26. 
 
 necessity of discussing this statement. 
 It seems to me that Mr. Garrison ha? 
 made a very plain statement. I don't 
 see that we can better the situation by 
 discussing It. Mr. Morris has made 
 about the only statement I had to 
 make, and that Is in regard to dead- 
 work. I don't believe there is an oper- 
 ator or a miner in this room that can 
 dispute the statement that Williamson 
 county is enjoying better conditions 
 today than any other district In the 
 state as to deadwork, timber, and so 
 on. They have a good vein of coil, 
 one of the thickest veins In the statf. 
 Williamson county mines' do not re- 
 quire one day man where other dis- 
 tricts In the state use ten. And why 
 they should be allowed a lower mining 
 rates than other adjacent counties, I 
 cannot for the life of me see. William- 
 son county is sandwiched in between 
 the other counties where coal is pro- 
 duced, and why they should enjoy a 
 lower mining rate than these counties 
 has always been a ftiystery to me, and 
 I think it will continue to be a mystery. 
 
 I don't know that there is any neces- 
 sity of my going any further with this 
 discussion. We have produced figures 
 to show the enormous increase in that 
 county, and as President Mitchell said, 
 it is an increase far in excess to p.ny 
 other district In the state. Two years 
 ago they said it would be possible, If 
 a southern outlet was gained, to do 
 something in- the direction of bringing 
 up the mining rate. They have gained 
 that southern outlet, and yet they 
 come here and state positively that 
 they will not Increase the mining rate 
 In that field. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Does the fact that 
 400,000 tons is produced entitle it to be 
 called a district? Is It not a virgin 
 field, a field just being opened up? 
 How could a field starting practically 
 from nothing do otherwise than in- 
 crease? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't think that 
 is true; it i.s not a new field. Mines 
 have been operated in Williamson 
 county for years and years, and there 
 has been an enormous developmsnt 
 there. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— If it were not for 
 the washers there would have been no 
 increase in Williamson county. Am 
 I correct, Mr. Garrison? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Very nearly. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When were the 
 washers first used there? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Not later than '97. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — How many washers 
 were in Williamson county In 1898' 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Mr. Garrison sajrg 
 Mr. Brush had his in 1897, in a small 
 way. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — How many were therp 
 in 1898? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— We were finish- 
 ing ours. 
 
 *MR. PEABODT:— Mr. Garrison tian 
 one, Mr. Peters has one, Mr. Warden 
 has one, and I have just finished one. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— The tonnage is In- 
 creasing in Williamson: county now, 
 and it increased before the washers 
 were in operation. 
 
 MR. PEABODT: — As they came into 
 operation, not before. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — Then Williamson 
 county can send to Chicago all her 
 screenings and sell it there, and all 
 its lump coal south and sell it there? 
 Is it not true that Williamson county 
 — above all other counties In the state, 
 has two markets? 
 
 MR. PEABODT: — Our washed coal 
 can find a market almost everywhere 
 it goes. It is making a new market; 
 It is driving out oil; furnaces are being 
 made to burn it. I have a large cus- 
 tomer in the north for that coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand the 
 teamsters' union was driving out more 
 oil than you were. 
 
 MR. PEABODT: — The coal teamsters 
 are trying to work in entire harmony 
 in holding up people when they cannot 
 help themselves. That example was 
 • set by you. Mr. Morris and Mr. Rus- 
 sell have both made statements in re- 
 gard to timbering and deadwork in 
 Williamson county. WTien our rate 
 was fixed at forty-two cents that was 
 all taken Into consideration. Our rate 
 was raised to 33 cents and nine cents 
 added. If It was right then it is right 
 now. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I think your rate 
 was more a peace measure than any- 
 thing else. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— They claim they 
 cannot put their coal on the market 
 without being washed. If that is so 
 how does Johnson City, Spillertown and 
 the mines that up to the present have 
 had no washers put their coal on the 
 market ? 
 
 MR. - PEABODT:— Crab Orchard 
 mines are in the hands of a receiver. 
 Johnson City took the Armoul- coal, 
 and took it run-of-mine coal, and toolf 
 it on a special freight rate that no one 
 else had. The Crab Orchard mine 
 failed. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I don't wonder at 
 that. 
 
 MR PEABODT:— Nor I either. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Johnson City has 
 run as steady time as you who have 
 washers, and so has Spillertown and so 
 has Carterville. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Spillertown has 
 not. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou said your 
 coal was driving oil out of the market. 
 Tou meant the Chicago market? 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I had a particular 
 place in mind where I have been able 
 to get some business away from oil. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand 
 your screenings are very good. We 
 are not going to allow our unions to 
 lose any credit. Our teamsters drove 
 the oil out of the market. In Chicago 
 they refused to haul coal anywher" 
 
Afternoon Session, February 26. 
 
 43 
 
 they did not use coal all the year 
 through. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Mr. Peataody made a 
 sta;tement that' has been made now for 
 two successive years. The statement 
 on the other side has been made by 
 myself. . At the time the rate was set 
 in Williamson county at thirty-three 
 cents — and I believe he has reference 
 to the time it was arbitrated — at that 
 time they did not have the openings 
 they have at the present time. They 
 did not have access to the southern 
 markets as they have now. Hence all 
 the things we take into consideration 
 now could not have been taken into 
 consideration then, and were not. 1 
 don't know that the deadwork "and the 
 timber question in the competitive field 
 was considered. Something was sajd 
 in regard to it in Williamson county; 
 but since that time, as I stated before, 
 the operators offer a proposition that 
 reduces the cost of production in the 
 other districts that are their com- 
 petitors. They acknowledge the fact 
 that Williamson county is rated too 
 low. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — A statement was made 
 here by Mr. Peabody that his coal was 
 driving oil out of the market. A state- 
 ment was made by Mr. Garrison that 
 oil was driving his coal out of the 
 market. They are both operating In 
 W^illiamson county. The eastern oil 
 fields are just as close to Mr. Peabody's 
 mines and his market as the southern 
 oil fields are to Mr. Garrison's southern 
 market. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I don't know 
 whether you are trying to iplay Mr. 
 Garrison against me or not. If you aie 
 you are going to have hard work. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I wcjild not make a 
 play against Mr. Garrison, but I would 
 against you. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— His statement was 
 a correct one, and so was mine. His 
 coal Is being driven out of the south- 
 west. Oil is 'going to be a great factor 
 in the southwest, and it is going to 
 be a great factor in Louisiana; it is 
 going to be a great factor on the plan- 
 tations. I referred in particular to one 
 place where they had occasion to 
 change their furnaces so as to bu.'n 
 our washed coal. The reason they l>ad 
 not been able to burn coal before was 
 on account of the smoke. Washing the 
 coal takes away a great deal of that 
 objection. Mr. Mitchell's statement Is 
 of ho particular moment; but I want 
 to coirrect it. The teamsters' union 
 in Chicago objected on account of gas, 
 not oil. No ,oil burner In Chicago has 
 any trouble in securing oil all the year 
 around. If he once puts in furnacKS 
 to burn oil he can get it all through 
 the year. They only objected to gas, 
 which was burned in the summer, '^he 
 pressure of gas becomes bad in ooid 
 weather. The teamsters did advise 
 those gas consumers that unless they 
 burned coal all the year around they 
 would not haul coal for them. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— Didn't they in- 
 form the people who burned oil that 
 they wouldn't haul coal for them? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— They didn't. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Did you have any 
 trouble this year in getting a market 
 for the full output of the mines yod 
 have in operation? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— When I could get 
 the cars I couldn't get the business, 
 and when I could get the business I 
 couldn't get the cars. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I don't think I 
 have been in that field for the past 
 year when I didn't hear your superin- 
 tendents and mine foremen calling for 
 cars. This has been so in all the dis- 
 tricts. That is why your output has 
 not been greater than theirs. Your 
 output would have been double what it 
 was if you could have secured a suffi- 
 cient number of cars. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— If everybody could 
 have gotten cars this winter our ton- 
 nage would have been normal; but no- 
 body could get cars enough; there lias 
 been a demand on everybody. Have 
 you been in other districts than ours 
 this year, Mr. Bagwill? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Not in many. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— Then you have 
 only heard the statements in our dis- 
 trict? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL :-rThat is about all. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— You did not hear 
 the statements In other districts. Last 
 summer when we could get the cars we 
 could not get the business. We could 
 not sell our coal in competition and get 
 our cost out of it. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— How many days 
 did your No. 2 mine work during the 
 summer months? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:- 1 don't know. Our 
 business was something like 30,000 less 
 than it was last year for the first six 
 months of the year. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— The reason for 
 that was because No. 1 Mine has been 
 shut down practically all of this yenr, 
 and your No. 3 mine was not in opera- 
 tion the first six months of the year. 
 Last year you ran three mines, and 
 this year you have been running only 
 one mine, practically. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I have been 
 listening to the statements made by 
 Mr. Garrison and Mr. Peabody. Thoy 
 make the statement ,that if we place 
 their rate where it should be they v>rill 
 close down the mines. It seems plain 
 to ime that it is only a question of 
 rating them where they should be and 
 keeping them to their word and closing 
 them down, or letting them go on and 
 they will close other operators down 
 during the coming year. 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— Mr. Garrisoa 
 said it was no hasty conclusion of the 
 operators that they could not pay a 
 higher rate than they are now paying. 
 On the other hand, I will state that it 
 is not only a hasty conclusion of the 
 miners that they feel they are entitled 
 to that three cents. We feel that we 
 
44 
 
 Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 have been crucified on that cross of 
 reduction long enough. We can see 
 nearly every day cars that should eo 
 to other fields and that we know should 
 be loaded In Jackson county, going 
 to their mines. We know the other 
 people should have these cars. Cars 
 ccme there that are marked for the 
 Hallidayboro mines only. They run 
 only between Hallidayboro and certain 
 points, but they h^ve come to our 
 mine and we load them. If they cio 
 not ,have a better rate how Vio they 
 get their contracts? We believe wh^n 
 we get our delegate here in the morn- 
 ing we will be able to produce facts 
 that will show these people that we 
 are not making any idle demand, or 
 trying to put in our time here inr 
 nothing. We believe we have facts 
 that," to fair minded men, will undoubt- 
 edly show we are entitled to this three 
 cents. As Mr. Morris stated, however, 
 I do noit believe the Williamson county 
 operators will grant that their argu- 
 ments are true. I come to that con- 
 clusion from reading the records of 
 last year and in the year- before. How- 
 ever, we will produce our facts in the 
 morning showing the conditions in that 
 county. There is a great deal more 
 expense to the miner in Williamson 
 county in producing his coal than 
 there is to the miner in Jackson 
 county, and a great deal more labor. 
 We have a car down there as big as a 
 box car. If they had smaller oars 
 they would get a better grade of coal, 
 and more lump coal. If you drop a 
 big lump into those great cars it will 
 all smash up. The rooms are -\11 
 eighteen foot entries. They drive en- 
 tries there altogether. That is the es- 
 tablished rule. Any practical coal 
 digger knows you Cannot make as good 
 coal shooting on the solid in an eighteen 
 foot place as you can in a twenty-four 
 foot place, because if you are getting 
 out anything like good coal you must 
 shoot one shot after another, and if 
 the first shot don't do its work the next 
 one cannot, and the one behind that is 
 knocked out altogether. In order to 
 get the first one out of the way you 
 must powder in heavier, because ycu 
 can't afford to have it miiss. You can't 
 expect a good quality of coal that has 
 to be gotten out that way. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— What kind of a 
 car is that you speak of? Will you 
 describe the construction of it? 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— It is about 
 seven feet long in the clear. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— How about the 
 Inside construction of that car? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^You mean the mine 
 car, do you? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— No; the railroad 
 car he called the Hallidayboro car. 
 Where do those cars go to, as a rule" 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— I don't know 
 where they ship to. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Don't you know 
 they go to the river as a rule, and .jre 
 dumped on the barges? We don't load 
 
 any of these cars for the market. They 
 belong to the Illinois Central Road, not 
 the Hallidayboro Co. We have not 
 loaded one of them for three or four 
 months, but we do load them at times 
 to try to keep you going at Herrin's. 
 There we do come in competition with 
 all kinds of coal that goes down the 
 river on barges. You know we cannot 
 load an ordinary coal car and take it 
 to Grand Tower. I don't want the 
 impression to get out that we are 
 adopting a different plan of mining 
 from the rest of the country. 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— I don't believe 
 you .could find another mine where they 
 mine in eighteen foot rooms. 
 
 MR. , GARRISON:— I think I have 
 heard the Sunnyside mine men say 
 they work that way there. 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— I worked there, 
 and they were twenty-four feet. 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — Before we adjourn 
 I would like to ask the Williamson 
 county i)eople to meet in this room 
 this evening. 
 
 On taotion the committee was then 
 adjourned, to meet at 9:30 the follow- 
 ing morning. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., Feb. 27, 1902. 
 ' The meeting was called to order at 
 9:30 a. m. by Mr. Ryan. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When we adjourned 
 last evening it was for the purpose of 
 allowing the operators and miners of 
 Williamson county tO' meet in this 
 room. What report have they to make 
 to the committee? 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — Mr. Bagwill was 
 chairman of that meeting, but as he 
 is not here I will report that we have 
 not yet reached an agreement. We 
 discussed the matter pretty fully, but 
 the miners, I understand, were unpre- 
 pared with the records and statistics 
 they intended to bring. Tbey had such 
 short notice of the meeting- that they 
 were not able to get them liere, and 
 at their request we postponed con- 
 sideration of the question until a lator 
 date. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Is it the desire of 
 the committee to wait for the further 
 report from Williamson county, or |to 
 proceed with other business? 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— There is A 
 motion pending. It would be well to 
 dispose of that before we take up any 
 other business, unless the miners and 
 operators of Williamson county desire 
 to defer action to some future time. 
 The secretary will read the pending 
 motion. 
 
 SECRETARY SCROGGS:— It was 
 moved and seconded that the rate frr 
 Williamson county be forty-two cents. 
 Mr. Mitchell moved to amend by mak- 
 ing the rate forty-five cents. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— 1 notice that some 
 of the delegates from Williamson; 
 county are here this morning. They 
 desire to appear before the joint scale 
 
Corning Session, February 27. 
 
 45 
 
 committee. Unless there is something 
 else before' the committee, I see no 
 reason why they should not be allowed 
 to make their statements this mornl.ig. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The delegates fiom 
 Williamson county will get a hearing- 
 now if they so desire. 
 
 MR. PHILLIPS, (Carterville:)— We 
 are in about the same position we were 
 in last evening. The chairman of last 
 night's meeting is not here, but I will 
 say that it is not the desire of the 
 Williamson county delegates to place 
 the operators of that field at a disad- 
 vantage in competition with other 
 fields. But we believe the scale that 
 was adopted in Chicago in 1898, thirty- 
 six cents for Williamson county, did 
 place them upon an equitable and com- 
 petitive basis with the other fields in 
 the southern portion of the state. 
 
 MR. DREWS:— I understand from 
 the delegates that it is not their de- 
 sire to drive their operators out of the 
 market. I remember that in 1900 we 
 had a complaint from the Danville dis- 
 trict from our operators about the 
 competition from Williamson county. 
 They made a strong complaint to iis. 
 We even went so far as to have two 
 smokers at their expense, and they went 
 so far as to say that if Williamson 
 county was not brought up they would 
 be driven from the market. No such 
 complaints come up here among the 
 operators, and yet I should think they 
 would be as much interested as the 
 miners, t want to say furthe^ that we 
 haven't gotten over the effects of those 
 smokers yet; we still feel it. If Wil- 
 liamson county cannot be brought up 
 at this time I have no doubt another 
 complaint will be coming, and we will 
 feel another effect from it. I would 
 like to hear from the Danville opera- 
 tors and know if they will take the 
 same stand now they did in the sum- 
 mer of 1900 at those smokers. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Were there any 
 operators there except Danville opera- 
 tors? 
 
 MR. DREWS:— I cannot answer 
 that. I don't know whether there was 
 or not; but I know the complaints were 
 made very strong. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I want to say, for 
 the benefit of the delegate who has 
 just spoken, that in asking the quesj- 
 tion why the operators have not op- 
 posed the Williamson county scale, he 
 knows that the scale under which we 
 are working was voted on by both 
 miners and operators from each dis- 
 trict, and no operators here will take 
 the position in this meeting that the 
 scale he voted for was not fair. I don't 
 believe there will ever be a time when 
 a scale will be arranged that will be 
 absolutely perfect. I do believe the 
 scale under which we are now working 
 is as nearly competitively perfect as 
 any we can adopt.' We are on record 
 here as voting for this scale for *our 
 years. This scale is an official scale 
 
 voted on by every man in every dis- 
 trict. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Then it is right 
 for the operators to go to their sub- 
 districts and complain about the rela- 
 tive rate in the district adjoining? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think I am on 
 record about ten different times in this 
 committee — where you have quoted the 
 saying of some operator outside the 
 committee room — of asking that tViat 
 operator be brought in here and al- 
 Iqwed to get up and say it fairly and 
 squarely.' I have no use for those fel- 
 lows who go out and talk on the cor- 
 ners. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I am speaking of 
 the sub-district meetings. When we 
 ask for better conditions on deadwork 
 and those things, they say they will 
 give them to us if we give them the 
 same ra,te as Williamson county. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I am from the Sixth 
 district and there never was , such a 
 statement made in the Sixth district 
 convention that I know of. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I think Mr. Jere- 
 miah will admit that the operator? 
 have a right to say anything they 
 choose in the sub-district when they 
 get back. These are local questions. 
 The sub-district meetings are for you 
 to try to put everything on us you can ; 
 we try to keep off everything we can. 
 Last evening a gentleman asked if 
 this scale was made upon the earning 
 power of a man. Nobody can complain 
 that the men in Williamson county do 
 not earn good wages. On the other 
 hand, no operator complains about thi* 
 competition of Williamson county. If 
 that is so, and if our men can earn 
 good wages, why do you want us put 
 up? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I want to say for the 
 benefit of the committee, and for the 
 benefit of Delegate Drews in particular, 
 that Mr. Garaghty was the man in 11;e 
 Danville district was complained about 
 the Williamson county scale. I will 
 not get up here and say that somebody 
 said something unless I can name the 
 man that said it. This time the man 
 was Mr. Garaghty. I attended that 
 smoker Delegate Drews speaks of, and 
 I think I went on record there about 
 as clean-cut as anyone who was pres- 
 ent. The same question was ask°d 
 then, why Mr. Garaghty would come 
 to a convention of this kind and vote 
 for a scale of this kind, and then go 
 home and complain of a scale he had 
 helped to make? I think he has got 
 over it; he don't come here any more. 
 
 MR. .GARRISON:- The gentleman 
 stated that the scale for William.son 
 county had been thirty-six cents. We 
 have to take issue with him on that 
 statement. Williamson county never 
 worked under a thirty-six cent scale.. 
 Williamson county, through a meeting 
 on the part of the miners and opera- 
 tors in 1899 made a thjrty^cent scale. 
 They worked under that for a time. 
 Arbitration was finally agreed upon. 
 
46 
 
 Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 and the board of arbitration made the 
 rate thirty-three cents. Afterwards 
 the rate was advanced nine cents the 
 same as 'the rest of the state, so that 
 Williamson is paying a rate of forty- 
 two cents that was given to us ,by tlie 
 usual process of arrangement. 
 
 MR. DREWS:— I would like to say, 
 in reply to Mr. Peabody when he says 
 the operators have a right to say what 
 they choose in the sub-districts, that 1 
 do not think they have a right to come 
 here and ask for something they will 
 not ask for there. I refer to the six- 
 teenth clause of the state agreement. 
 I don't think they have a right, if ih.it 
 cuts no figure in the sub-district, vo 
 make it figure in this convention. 
 
 MR. PHILLIPS:— In regard to the 
 thirty-six cent rate in Williajnson 
 county. It Is true that the board of 
 arbitration that met at Carbondale 
 arbitrated against the rate that was 
 established. They disestablished the 
 rate. The miners of that field were not 
 in a position at that time to fight 
 against anything very strongly. 'We 
 submitted to arbitration, although it 
 was unjust on the part of the board 
 to make the rate they did; but the con- 
 tention was raised at that time by Mr. 
 Peabody and Mr. Garrison that if the 
 Brush mine would work eight hours 
 and pay the scale they would be will- 
 ing to pay it too. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:- In regard to the 
 last statement. We have a sore spot in 
 our district to both miners and opera- 
 tors. We have a good many reasons 
 why we should not pay an advance 
 over the present rate in our county, 
 and we are not going to bring those 
 conditions up here; we are not going 
 ' to mention Mr. Brush's name. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It is unmention- 
 able. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— We do believe that 
 the arguments should be based upon 
 the lines of competition, and the fact 
 that we have unusual conditions to 
 contend with in our district. We don't 
 want any sympathy on account of Mr. 
 Brush operating in our district. We 
 want the rate of forty-two cents be- 
 cause we are entitled to it in competi- 
 tion with the rest of the state. We have 
 not claimed any sympathy on account 
 of Captain Brush operating in our dis- 
 trict. 
 
 (Mr. Russell in the chair.) 
 MR. BAGWILL:— They used the 
 Brush mine as long as they could do it, 
 as long as Mr. Brush was not paying 
 the scale and working eight hours. 
 It finally came to the point where he 
 said. "You will use my name no' more; 
 I will pay the scale and work eight 
 hours, and then they will have no oc- 
 casion to use It." This thing has been 
 thrashed out for two or three years. 
 Our records are full of arguments that 
 have been made, and I don't believe 
 any argument we can produce here 
 now, no matter how strong, will con- 
 vince the operators of that county that 
 
 ■they ought to pay the forty-five cent 
 rate. We know we are entitled to It; 
 that we have facts to prove it, ai?d 
 that we have proved it. Now we a.re 
 willing to go back to the field and fight 
 it out if necessary. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I think Mr. Bag- 
 will is misinformed in regard to our 
 having used Mr. Brush'^s name in the 
 convention. I don't remember having 
 used it. I don't think they ought to 
 put us in the position of having used 
 his name until he told us we could mjt 
 use it., Mr. Brush never made any 
 statement to us. The reason he is pay- 
 ing the scale at his mines is not to 
 help the operators, but to hurt Ihe 
 cause of unionism, and you know it. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Mr. Brush told mp 
 this himself, in an interview I had 
 with him. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I am telling you 
 what I said myself. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I have heard dif- 
 ferent operators in that district com- 
 plain of it. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— The Williamson 
 
 couruty people met last evening, and 
 
 had with them the Saline and Jackson 
 
 county delegates. I would like to 
 
 make a statement to clear matters up 
 
 a little. We know mines In Jackson 
 
 county — that is my county — ^worked 
 
 more days last year than the mines 
 
 in Williamson county worked. The 
 
 same is true of Saline county. Saline 
 
 county has a rate of 45 cents, and 
 
 Jackson county has the same, yet you 
 
 are contending that because Williamson 
 
 county has a forty-two cent rate it is 
 
 taking business from the two counties 
 
 named, yet Williamson county worked 
 
 less days last year than the other lwo 
 
 counties. That is an argument to 
 
 answer the contention that the 42-cent 
 
 county is taking business from the 45- 
 
 cent counties. The statement was 
 
 made that we were loading some cars 
 
 marked Hallidayboro. These cars ari» 
 
 not owned by the Hallidayboro mine; 
 
 they are owned by the Illinois Central 
 
 Railroad Company. It is true they 
 
 were boarded to run between 
 
 Hallidayboro and Cairo. They are 
 
 what we call dump cars. When 
 
 It suits the Illinois Central Road, 
 
 when they are short of the cars 
 
 they usually run between Mur- 
 
 physboro and Grand Tower— which is 
 
 ouf dumping station— they will put in 
 
 some of these cars. We reconstruct'>d 
 
 our dump at Grand Tower, and it suits 
 
 them better to handle these cars than 
 
 the cars that formerly -went there We 
 
 are not taking anybody's trade. We 
 
 have always enjoyed a fairly good 
 
 trade at the river— as Cairo and St. 
 
 Louis does. It is a mid-way point far 
 
 the cars to drop in and coal. These 
 
 cars are simply some of the ordinarv 
 
 dump cars; and we didn't take a pound 
 
 ^Li'^^/Tf . ^'■'^ ^"S' °ther mine ii . 
 
 thf K^'f '■*°*- ^^ ^^^^ our share cf 
 
 the business, and we don't think we 
 
 take any more than our share. 
 
Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 47 
 
 MR. ZELiLERS;— There is one point 
 in Mr. Garrison's argument that J 
 would like to call the attention of the 
 committee to. That Is his statement 
 of the -way in which the scale for Wil- 
 liamson county was established. He 
 puts considerable stress on the decision 
 of the board of arbitration. I happen- 
 ed to be in that district at Ihe time 
 the board of arbitration was consider- 
 ing Williamson county, and know 
 something of the reasons why that rate 
 was established. The condition of the 
 Brush mine at that time naturally af- 
 fected the settlement, or affected thh 
 decision of the board of arbltrajtion. 
 The condition of that mine was used 
 as an argument before the arbitration 
 board. That condition has certainly 
 changed — ^you will all admit that. A.t 
 that time Mr. Wright, who operated 
 the Hallldayboro mine, because the 
 miners refused to allow them to enter 
 into arbitration along with Williamson 
 county, closed down his mines. Some 
 argument seems to have been advanced 
 that was satisfactory to the operators 
 of Jackson county, for they never get 
 on the floor here and make the conten- 
 tion they make to the miners. Every 
 statement made by Brother Drews, of 
 Danville, about the contention that 
 comes from that field, is true. Mr. 
 Ryan says Mr. Garaghty was the man 
 that made the statement. That is trufr, 
 but Mr., Garaghty spoke for every 
 operator in the Danville field; he was, 
 simply the spokesman for them. They 
 were all present, and if they did not 
 agree with him, why did they not pr'?t 
 up and contradict him? The condition 
 of Williamson county is changed since 
 the board of arbitration made that 
 rate. I believe the miners of William- 
 son county would be in a better posi- 
 tion today if we had another board of 
 arbitration there. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I would like to 
 have the secretary read Mr. Ryan's 
 statement, on page 180 of last year's 
 proceedings of the scale committee. I 
 think that answers the question of how 
 rates are settled by arbitration, from 
 the miners' standpoint. 
 
 Mr. Scroggs read the following 
 paragraph from the record of the scale 
 committee of 1901: 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The operators might 
 as well understand our position on this 
 question now as later. We are not 
 going to vote to change the price in 
 Saline county under any circum- 
 stances. The rate that is now being 
 paid was fixed by the state board of 
 arbitration, and this committee will 
 not vote to change it. It Is apparent 
 that there was no evidence submitted 
 to that board by the operators that 
 wotild induce them to lower that raite, 
 and If they did not furnish the proper 
 evidence we are not going to. If this 
 rate Is wrong, Mr. Davenport has a 
 right to appeal to the state bo?ird at 
 arbitration, and let them arbitrate It 
 again, and let him get there and pre- 
 
 sent the proper evidence. We feel, 
 from what we know of the case, that 
 the mines can' be operated In Saline 
 county and pay 45 cents, and compete 
 with any competitors they have to 
 meet." 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— That is our po- 
 sition on the question of how 
 cur rate was fixed. We take 
 Mr. Ryan's statement with regard to 
 the situation in Saline county, and 
 wish to include the operators' condi- 
 tion as well as the miners' oonditlon 
 when the rate was fixed in Williamson 
 county. 
 
 MR. ZELLERS:— Would be willing 
 to have It opened up again before a 
 board of arbitration? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— No, sir, our case 
 was settled years ago. If the miners 
 had wished toi :-e-ODen the case they 
 should have done it then, as Mr. Ryan 
 says the minei.s of Saline county 
 should. The Brush case was brought in 
 then. I don't know whether the opera- 
 tors brought Mr. Brush's name in or 
 not — possibly they did. The state board 
 of arbitration rightly brought in every 
 question they could find. I was told 
 yesterday by a miner that although he 
 was paying more than the scale rate, 
 the coal was not weighed. He may be 
 paying a cent a ton more than the 
 scale, I do not know: but even if he 
 was paying five cents a ton more, 
 there is still a condition there that 
 should not be illowed to exist. You 
 gentlemen have not done anything in 
 the last two years to correct that con- 
 dition. You are as weak there as the 
 national organization is in West Vir- 
 ginia. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I would like to have 
 the statement retd again in regard to 
 Mr. Ryan's position in regard to arbi- 
 tration. 
 
 •(The statement was read by the sec-, 
 retary.) 
 
 In Mr. Ryan's statement he allowed 
 Mr. Davenport the right to, arbitrate 
 the condition lin Saline county again. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— He says they 
 should have arbitrated it. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— He says they should 
 allow the state board to arbitrate It 
 again. From your statement there the 
 impression would be left that the time 
 had passed when Mr. Davenport oould 
 re-open it in Williamsion county. You 
 were willing to, take Mr. Ryan's posi- 
 tion there for Saline and apply it to 
 Williamson county. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— Our contention was 
 that we should- have a rate of 30 cents. 
 The miners' contention was that we 
 should have a rate of 36 cents. My 
 idea was to prove by Mr. Ryan's state- 
 ment that if the miners at that time 
 had not been satisfied, had not been 
 willing to accept the decision of the 
 board of arbitration, they should then 
 have applied for another board of arbi- 
 tration. That is the conclusion I draw 
 from Mr. Ryan's statement of the Sa- 
 line county matter; that if Mr. Daven- 
 port had not been satisfied with the 
 
48 
 
 Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 arbitration of Saline county it was then 
 right and proper for him to appeal 
 again to the state board of arbitration 
 and submit new evidence. I don't know 
 anything about the statute of limitation 
 in arbitration cases, but I think it 
 should apply to Saline county as well 
 as in Williamson county. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— There was a dif- 
 ference in arbitrating those two cases. 
 1*he question that was arbitrated In 
 "Williamson county was whether that 
 county should pay 30 or 36 cents. In 
 Saline county it was arbitrated against 
 the competitive field of Williamson 
 county. There is a difference there in 
 the application of arbitration against 
 the two counties. 
 
 MR.'PEABODY:— Mr. Jeremiah said 
 In Saline county the question that was 
 arbitrated was the competitive basis, 
 not the earning power of a man, and 
 on that competitive basis the board 
 gave a ruling that the difference be- 
 tween Williamson county and Saline 
 county was right, by placing Saline 
 county's rate at 45 cents and William- 
 son county's rate at forty-two cents. 
 
 MR. JAMBS:— I have met the 
 operators in regard tO' this some 
 time ago. I was one of the pit com- 
 mittee in regard to those idle days. 
 We were doing some work there by 
 the day, opening up some new work. 
 The miners all wanted a share of that 
 work, which they had a right to have. 
 I am from Spillertown, Mr. Arm- 
 strong's mine. Mr. Armstrong told us 
 if they could get the cars he would 
 promise us we would not be idle more 
 than a few days in a month. I have 
 learned from the miners in other places 
 that the operators told them they were 
 150 cars behind their business. They 
 told them they could work more if 
 they had more cars. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I said that yester- 
 day. We could have worked more if 
 we had more cars. I also said that if 
 we had more' cars other operators 
 would have more cars, and this need 
 v.'ould have ceased to exist. The gen- 
 eral market was short, and there was 
 a demand for any kind of coal in No- 
 vember, December and January. We 
 were not taking the business away 
 from any other mine. 
 
 MR. JAMBS:— Mr. Armstrong told 
 us if he could get cars we would not 
 be idle more than one or two. days a 
 month. I don't believe we are asking 
 for anything unjust In asking for forty- 
 five cents for Williamson county. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Mr. Armstrong 
 runs the mine and I sell the coal. Un- 
 doubtedly I made the statemtent to Mr. 
 Armstrong to get out all the coal possi- 
 ble and I would sell it. 
 
 MR. LAWRENCE:- Mr. Garrison 
 made the statements a few moments 
 ago that Jackson county had worked 
 more days during this scale year than 
 Williamson county had. Is it not a fact 
 that his No. 7 shaft in Herrin does 
 hoist as much coal in one day as either 
 
 one of his shafts in, Williamson county 
 does in two days? 
 MR. GARRISON:— It is not. 
 MR. LAWRENCE:— It doesi not lack 
 much of it. It seems as it he wished 
 to leave the impression on the scale 
 committee that it is not on account of 
 competition that they could not enter 
 the market. They say it was on ac- 
 count of cars. I will say, according 
 to his superintendent and mine mana- 
 ger at Herrin that there was not an 
 idle day at Herrin this year except on 
 account of a shortage of cars. They 
 were not idle on account of lack of 
 business. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— He evidently told 
 you the truth, whatever he said. He 
 is not here, and I object to your stat- 
 ing what he said when he is not here 
 to correct you. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: —Mr. Peabody 
 states that the rate in Saline county 
 was arbitrated and fixed at 45 cents 
 against Williamson county, and that 
 the rate placed on W^illiamson county 
 was fair. My contention before the 
 committee at that time, whenever the 
 operators refused to place Saline 
 county at 45 cents, that I could show 
 the operators of the Big Four Railroad 
 that Williamson county was not their 
 competitor, and I believe I showed that 
 before the board\ of arbitration. Their 
 market was from Carmi to Cairo. We 
 do contend that W^ilUamson is a com- 
 petitor of fields not in Saline county. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Do I understand 
 that you admit that Saline county is 
 not a competitor of Williamson county? 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Not directly. I 
 proved that before the board of arbi- 
 tration. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I am glad to hear 
 that. 
 
 MR. RySSELL:— I said yesterday I 
 did not believe any further discussion 
 of this matter would help us in reliev- 
 ing the situation. I am of the same 
 opinion still; but Mr. Peabody has 
 made a statement that I think should 
 not go unchallenged. He said we were 
 ac weak at the Brush mine as the 
 national was in West Virginia. We 
 wish to refute that. We say that is 
 not true. He says they have not sought 
 to take any advantage of that weak- 
 ness. I desire to say that is true, since 
 Mr. Brush has begun to pay the scale 
 rate for mining and the day wage 
 scale. I will say further that I have 
 gone into Williamson county when I 
 have had to make a strong effort to 
 make the settlements upon cross cuts 
 and timbering and so on, because they 
 were contending at the mines that they 
 must have the Brush prices. This was 
 prior to the time when Mr. Brush be- 
 gan paying what he considers union 
 prices and the eight-hour day. At that 
 time some of the operators in William- 
 son county even contended that they 
 ought to be allowed to work a ten-hour 
 day. That is my experience in Wll- 
 
Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 49 
 
 liamson county, and I think it is only 
 right that the statement should be 
 made. 
 
 MR. PHILLIPS:— They speak of the 
 scarcity of oars. I don't think the 
 scarcity of cars should be brought Into 
 the controversy. The brother from 
 Herrln has made a pretty reasonable 
 statement along that line. The general 
 superintendent or manager of the Burr 
 mine informed ms that it wasn't on 
 account of contracts that his mine 
 could not be operated, but It was be- 
 cause of a scarcity of cars. He inform- 
 ed me that the operators of Williamson 
 county had the privilege over the other 
 operators as regards to procuring flats. 
 I don't know whether Mr, Brush is 
 here or not. 
 
 MR. 1 will say how we are 
 
 running at the Big Muddy and tell 
 about Idle days. They usually, take un- 
 til nine o'clock in the day what coal 
 they load of a night. They claim it Is 
 oi; account of a scarcity of cars there 
 too, and that they are two hundred 
 flats and over behind. They say if they 
 could get flats they would not need 
 to miss a day. They did at one tlniie 
 try to get the men to work ten hours 
 a day after they had a break down. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— I am glad to hear 
 that the operators of "Williamson 
 county are making the same excuse to 
 their men for not running. I think 
 every statement that has been made 
 has agreed. ' 
 
 (Mr. Ryan in the chair.) 
 
 MR. HENDERSON:— In nearly all 
 the mines in the county they could get 
 along with •one-third less men than 
 they have, and still get out the coal 
 they are now getting out. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I have notic- 
 ed particularly two points that have 
 been brought out here by miners in 
 regard to the mining rate. The first 
 Is the question of the car supply, and 
 the second is the running of the mines. 
 Sometimes operators take contracts 
 which give to them a large number of 
 foreign cars, cars which come from 
 such roads as the Milwaukee & St. 
 Paul, the Missouri Pacific, the North- 
 western, and so on. Those mines are 
 oftentimes enabled to operate, by rea- 
 son of these contracts, much more 
 steadily than the mines which rely up- 
 on the' cars coming from local roads 
 on which they are located. Insofar as 
 the steady operation of a mine is con- 
 cerned, that is often the result of the 
 opinions of the different operators as 
 to what is best for their own interests. 
 Tou will find some operators who be- 
 lieve it is best to work as steadily as 
 possible, summer and winter alike, on 
 contracts with a small margin; while 
 others again believe in only taking a 
 few contracts and relying upon the 
 winter to give them a good, big profit. 
 The matter of car supply and the ques- 
 tion of a mine operating steadily has 
 nothing whatever to dO' with the jus- 
 tice of the mining rate that is in effect. 
 
 The company I represent believes in 
 working as steadily as possible, and 
 we go into the market on a small 
 margin, taking large contracts; but I 
 have a number of neighbors in the 
 Fifth and Ninth districts who rely al- 
 most entirely upon the winter business 
 for their income, and believe it is bet- 
 ter to keep the coal in the ground, and 
 only take out enough in the winter 
 time to give them their yearly income. 
 Now and again those gentlemen have 
 a good, stiff winter come along which 
 gives them an extraordinary profit; 
 and on the whole they believe they are 
 better off than if ithey worked under 
 the policy we pursue. 
 
 Insofar_as ■Williamson county com- 
 petition is concerned, I don't think 
 there Is any one single company In 
 central lUinods that meets the competi- 
 tion of Williamson county more than 
 we do; but I have not heard any case 
 yet where they have been dangerous 
 competitors to central Illinois. I can- 
 not say anything about their southern 
 business, because I don't know it, and 
 I doc't know where their coal goes to; 
 but I can say that, so far as the mar- 
 kets we ship to — and nearly our entire 
 tonnage goes north — that they have 
 not been dangerous competitors, and I 
 might say, hardly competitors at all. 
 
 There are two points I want to fix 
 upon your minds.' Insofar as the car 
 supply is concerned and the steady 
 operation of the mines is concerned, 
 there is no argument there for the 
 changing of the mining rate. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Tou say you don't 
 know where the Williamson county 
 coal goes toi? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Not south. 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — Did you know where 
 they were selling their coal during the 
 year 1898-99? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't re- 
 member. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Did you not in the 
 year 1898-9 complain of the competition 
 from Williamson county? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I stated a 
 year ago that one of lOur large con- 
 tracts in St. Louis had been taken 
 away from us by Mr. Brush. I did say 
 that. That was true at that time, but 
 the Brush property at that time was 
 operating differently; and then again 
 there was an influence that had been 
 brought to bear. I learned afterwards 
 that some of the people connected with 
 the Brush property had also connected 
 with the electric light company In St. 
 Louis, and that was one of the rea- 
 sons why they got the contract from 
 us. I did not know this at the time 
 we lost the contract. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— It occurs to me that 
 during the year 1898-9, and soon after 
 the board of arbitration had agreed 
 upon a rate for Williamson county, that 
 some of the operators complained very 
 bitterly of the competition that came 
 from Williamson county. I want to 
 
50 
 
 Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 ask the question whether you com- 
 plained or nof? 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I had no rea- 
 son to complain of it. 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — Did you contend that 
 the rate of mining was too high for the 
 Belleville district as against a rate of 
 thirty cents in Williamson county? 
 The rate was forty cents in the Belle- 
 ville dis'trict as against thirty cents in 
 the ■Williamson district in 1899. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— "WTiat oc- 
 curred in 1897 and 1898, and I might 
 say 1899, has but little to do with what 
 is occurring now, or has occurred In 
 the pas't year. There are a whole lot 
 of circumstances that grioiw up in a 
 period like that that bring about 
 changes, and the fact ithat arguments 
 were made in 1899 does not prove tha/t 
 the same arguments will apply in 1902. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I asked this because 
 I am aware that Mr. Moorshead did 
 complain of the competition that came 
 from Williamson county, and he cer- 
 tainly knew a;t that time where the 
 coal was going to. I have had com- 
 munications from other operators who 
 contended that a rate of forty cents 
 was too high as against a rate of 
 thirty cents for the Williamson county 
 field. They claimed that we should 
 allow the operators of our district the 
 same privilege. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— There was a 
 difference 'of ten cents then. Is there 
 now? We have a forty- nine cent rate 
 now. What rate have they? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— FcTty- two cents. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That is only a 
 difference of seven cents. The com- 
 plaint I made was wholly on account 
 of the big contract which Mr. Brush 
 took away from us. The coal now does 
 not compelte very much with the Belle- 
 ville and the commoner grades of coal. 
 They have a special business in that 
 district. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I have the offl- 
 cJal report of the tenth annual con- 
 vention, and statement made by Mr. 
 Moorshead and Mr. Garrison will be 
 found on page 245. I would like to 
 have the secretary read the statement. 
 
 MR. PBABODT:— Did Mrs. Easit re- 
 port that convention? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— She did mot. 
 
 MR. PBABODT:— I will not take 
 that statement as correct. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Do you refer to 
 my answer in reply to a question by 
 Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— In reply to a ques- 
 tion by Mi-. Mitchell. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I don't deny that 
 at that time we were contending that 
 Brush should come up before we came 
 up. He was not up. I thought the 
 question was from Mr. Ryan. I did not 
 make the staJtement that has been read 
 from ithe record. I said It was time 
 enough to answer the question when 
 you got (there. That is not my answer 
 In the record; I am positive of that. 
 
 I made a memorandum ot it myself 
 at that time. ' 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— We will not accept 
 the statement in that record. We all 
 know that record was noit correct. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I believe I was di- 
 rectly interested in that field trying 
 to carry out the agreement at that 
 time, and, If my memory serves me 
 right, the operators in that field claim- 
 ed they would pay the scale if the 
 surrounding mines paid it, as their 
 statement reads, or in words to the 
 same effect. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I was misunder- 
 stood. I never made the statement as 
 it appears in that record. 
 
 MR. MORRIS: — Yesterday the opera- 
 tors said thajt oil would be a factor 
 in driving them from the southern mar- 
 ket. If that is true, Williamson county 
 will have tO' hunt markets in the north, 
 northwest and west, and as a result 
 will come in competition again with the 
 other districts of Illinois. Probably 
 the reason there is not now a greater 
 amount of complaining from the com- 
 petitive distriots in the state is because 
 that field has a soaithern outlet; but If 
 thajt market was taken away from 
 them they .will again become competi- 
 tors of the other districts. 
 
 ■While the freight raJte may be higher 
 In that district than in some of the 
 other competitive districts, yet the coat 
 of producing coal in 'that county more 
 than balances the difference in the 
 freight rate. I believe the difference 
 in the cost of producing coal between 
 ^''illlamsGn county and Jackson county 
 is more than the difference of the 
 freight rate between these counties, 
 taking the two as a whole. The same 
 thing is true of PeiTy county, or that 
 portion of Perry ccunjty thalt is In the 
 Illinois Central road. I will go further, 
 and take the Sixth scale district. The 
 cost of deadwork and the favorable 
 ccnditions in "Williamson county per- 
 mits them to compete wi'th any district 
 that will become their competitors, I 
 believe. And whiln the condition has 
 not been alarming to operators in other 
 districts for the last year or so, from 
 statements made by the operators from 
 Williamson county I am afraid that it 
 will become alarming this year. "While 
 this last year — through a threat of 
 ours — the operators have not threaten- 
 ed us as much as formerly, yet state- 
 ments have been sent out to us show- 
 ing that coal for domestic purposes 
 could be gotten at a lower rate from 
 the Williamson county operators than 
 the operators of Perry county were 
 offering it for. We have been told by 
 real estate agents that if the rate in 
 Perry county could be lowered they 
 could close deals by which large tracts 
 of coal land could be sold; but that 
 parties going into the coal business 
 were going where they had the lower 
 rate. That sitatement comes from real 
 estate agents. I judge it has some 
 weight. 
 
Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 51 
 
 MR. GREEN:— Mr. Hefti spoke lof 
 complaints from the operators of our 
 district. In 1898-9 they complained a 
 great deal about Williamson county 
 competition, and even went so far as 
 to say they would drive them out of 
 the market. I think the reason why 
 they do not make that complaint now 
 is on account of the shortage of cars. 
 It runs in my mind that if they could 
 have had the cars to load 'their coal, 
 the operators of our district would have 
 the same complaint to make when they 
 meet us in our district. On account of 
 the shortage of cars 'they may not 
 make that complaint. It is true that 
 some of the operators in this hall, and 
 some who are not here, have gone so 
 far as to say that they would be 
 driven out lof the market unless they 
 could come down to the ■Williamson 
 county scale. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— One of the 
 gentlemen quoted a statement I made 
 in 1899. It seems to me that a careful 
 perusal of that must convince every- 
 body of one fact only, and thaJt is the 
 disposition of the Williamson county 
 operators, whom Mr. Garrison is speak- 
 ing for, to pay the highest wage that 
 they could possibly alloiw. They were 
 willing to do better if other people 
 would do better. They have done bet- 
 ter. There was ten cents a ton differ- 
 ence then, and there is only seven cents 
 now between Williamson county and 
 the Fifth and Ninth districts. 
 
 Mr. Green spoke about a shortage of 
 cars. The operators in the Fifth and 
 Ninth districts that did the complain- 
 ing — I don't know who they are' — all 
 know that there was no scarcity of 
 cars in the summer. What scarcity 
 there has been commenced early in 
 the fall and ranged through the winter. 
 That has happened before, and it is 
 very likely to happen in the future. 
 That is no arerument. If these men 
 had a Well grounded reason to com- 
 plain, the mere fact that they ^were 
 short of cars for a few months does 
 not wipe out their reason for complain- 
 ing. The competition that any opera- 
 tor would have a rlghlt to complain of 
 would be a competition that would take 
 away from them the yearly business, 
 something they relied upon to give 
 their miners work in the summer 
 monlths. We don't complain of the 
 local business. I don't think any oper- 
 ator has had any reason toi complain 
 of the lack of cars in the summer— 
 and, by the bye, it has not been so 
 much a lack of cars as a ipower to 
 move the cars that has been complain- 
 ed of. It has taken us two weeks to 
 get cars into the city of Chicag'O. That 
 has helped ito make the shortage of 
 equipment. Cars that usually take 
 twelve days for the round trip, this 
 year have been a month on the road. 
 
 This bringing up what was said in 
 1S99 as an argument for changing the 
 mining ra)te of 1902 is a poor one, be- 
 cause there are so many things that 
 
 happen that change the current of 
 business affairs in a year or two. If 
 you are going to go back, you could 
 keep oin going back, and never get to 
 the end. The question Is: What is the 
 competition today? and, Wha;t are the 
 rights of the operators today? and. 
 What are the rights of the miners 
 today? That is tlie question. It isn't 
 argument to go back IntO' ancient his- 
 tory and call up the arguments I made 
 years ago. Brush at that time was 
 working at the rate of 30 cents a ton, 
 and I had a right to complain, because 
 I was working under forced conditions 
 imposed upon me by the United Mine 
 Workers, who said I should pay a cer- 
 tain price for mining and a certain 
 wage for 'every employe around the 
 mine, and he did not do thaft at that 
 time. 
 
 MR. GREEN:- If I am informed 
 rightly it was not a complaint of cars 
 ir the summer time; it has been a 
 complaint of Williamson county both 
 summer and winter. The delegates 
 from that district have so Informed me. 
 
 MR. PEABODT:— Do you mean there 
 was a shortage of cars in Williamson 
 county last summer? 
 
 MR. GREEN:— If I am informed 
 right by the delegates, yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— My attention 
 has just been called to a point I had 
 overlooked. I am informed that the 
 largest tonnage going from any one 
 operator, and possibly a greater ton- 
 nage than goes from several operators 
 in the southern district, comes from the 
 Brush mines. The greater part of the 
 tonnage coming from Williamson 
 counlty comes from the Brush mines, 
 and is shipped to St. Louis. I don't 
 use that as an argument to show that 
 he ought to have a higher mining rate, 
 by any means. As I stated before, he 
 is coupled up with some interests In St. 
 Louis that enable him to take one of 
 the very largest contracts in the city 
 of St. Louis. When I complained of 
 the matter in 1899 Mr. Brush was work- 
 ing on that very low rate, and I was 
 not aware until afterwards how strong 
 his connection with the electric light 
 company was. That helped to give 
 him an advantage, together with the 
 mining rate he had. 
 
 MR. KBLLET:— He says Mr. Brush 
 is 'the largest operator in Williamsioin 
 county. At one itlme he was. Today 
 Mr. Garrison's No. 7 hoists more coal 
 than Mr. Brush's mine does, by far, 
 and the statistics of the state will 
 show that for last year. There are at 
 least several other shafts in the county 
 that hoist more coal than Mr. Brush's 
 shaft does. When this arbitration was 
 on Mr. Brush was a factor in the 
 county at that time; but since that 
 time the other corporations have grown. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Mr. Moorshead 
 said in the direction of St. Louis. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I want to say 
 for the information of the miners that 
 they may not be troubled very much 
 
52 
 
 Morning Session, February 27. 
 
 about any of the southern coal going 
 into St.' Louis or East St. Louis very 
 long. I know that the Big Muddy Ooal 
 and Iron Company has lost the 
 Schlckle, Harrison & Howard contract, 
 and a good big one, too, on their coal. 
 The company is now burning oil. That 
 is what you are up 'against. You are 
 very likely to find a conditiOTi that will 
 worry you a grea;t deal more than the 
 matter of obtaining three cents for 
 Williamson county, and the chances 
 are that you will take three or five 
 cents less, if things keep going on. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is it not a fact that 
 the mines 'of Ohio and Pennsylvania 
 have been up against this proposition 
 for about twenty-iive years? 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— And have not these 
 mines steadily increased their tonnage 
 in that time? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The oil wells 
 of Indiana, Ohio and Pennsylvania 
 are pumping propositions. There was 
 a time when the Indiana operators 
 were driven almost out of the state 
 and had to put their coal into the city 
 of Chicago. They were driven out of 
 Indianapolis absolutely by gas. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— They are back in there 
 now. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Yes, but for 
 four or five years they never got in 
 there; and there was not an industry 
 along some of those lines where the 
 operators of Indi.ana put a ton of coal 
 during those years. 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Mitchell that the rate for "Williamson 
 county be 45 cents, the operators voted 
 No, the miners voted Yes, and it was 
 lest.) • 
 
 (On the motion to make the rate in 
 Williamson county 42 cents the opera- 
 tors, voted Yes, the miners voted No, 
 and it was loslt.) 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I don't know 
 whether it would be wise at this time 
 to take up another part of the Seventh 
 district. The Gartside property is 
 mentioned in your scale. I don't care 
 tC' substitute ours if we can save time 
 by it; but I think the delegates from 
 Jackson county should have a little 
 talk together about it first. It is my 
 wish that this be deferred; also the sec- 
 tion which specifies coal five feet and 
 under. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— These ques'tions will 
 be so deferred. 
 ' MR. BENT:— I observe that there is 
 g,n item in the First district which is 
 the same in both scales. 
 
 I m'ove you that the Bloomlngton 
 thick vein be placed at 71 cents. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. BJE3NT: — I move you the adop- 
 tion of the miners' scale for the Pon- 
 tiac top vein, 58 Cents. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that the rate 
 for Pekin, in the Eighth district, be 
 made 56 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I believe that if 
 
 that matter is referred to the officials 
 of the Eighth district, the miners and 
 operators, It would be better than 
 settling it here. I move that the mat- 
 ter be referred to the Eighth district 
 officials of the miners' organization, the 
 delega;te from Pekln and the Pekln 
 operators, they to bring in a report here 
 tomorrow. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We take it for granted 
 that everybody interes'ted In these mat- 
 ters shall have a hearing. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I'move you that to the 
 same oomftiittee be referred the No. 6 
 seam in tha;t district, and Wantling's 
 unknown seam. (Seconded and adopt- 
 ed.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move you that the 
 scale rate for Streator, Cardiff and 
 associated mines, including Tocula 
 thick vein, be 58 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 (A request was made that this matter 
 be deferred until Mr. Rathbun could be 
 present.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that the rate 
 for the third vein Rnd associated mines, 
 including twenty-four Inches of brush- 
 ing, be 76 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Does that carry 
 with it present prices and conditions? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move to amend by 
 adding Wilmington associated mines, 
 including Cardiff long wall and Bloom- 
 Ington 'thick vein, including brushing, 
 81 cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I will accept that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 scale for the third vein be referred to 
 the operators and miners of that dis- 
 trict, they to report to this committee 
 tomorrow at two o'clock. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — The motion as it now 
 stands relates to the Wilmington field 
 also.' Should it not all be referred? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am satisfied to 
 have my motion include the entire thin 
 veins of northern Illinois, instead of 
 having separate comnaittees, they to 
 refer it 'to the delegates and ofHcials 
 and operators of the thin vein of 
 northern Illinois. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Will that include 
 Morris, Seneca and Marseilles? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — They are not men- 
 tioned. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Are they long 
 wall mines? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— We would rather not 
 have them included. It would be best 
 for us to have a ,conference of the 
 miners and operators of Marseilles. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The committee 
 can refer the matter of Morris and 
 Marseilles to a sub-committee. 
 
 ■MR. SMITH:— The lonly place that 
 has a delegate proper is Morris, and 
 some time ago we agreed to include 
 Morris in the joint meeting. They 
 are members of the operators' associa- 
 tion, and some time ago we made an 
 agreement to that effect. We are de- 
 sirous lof leaving Seneca and Marseilles 
 out and having them settled as they 
 were settled at the beginning 'of this 
 
Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 53 
 
 year. They have iro representaitlves 
 here at all. They only sent credentials 
 from Marseilles. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— The suggestion of Mr. 
 Mitchell Is the proper one; It will bring 
 a more satisfactory settlement of this 
 matter. In the meantime we can get 
 the operators from Seneca and Mar- 
 seilles and Morris here. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I don't think we 
 can get a general scale for Morris and 
 Seneca In the committeee. I think 
 they should have a special committee. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think we ought to 
 refer this whole question of the thin 
 vein in the First district toi the com- 
 mittee. Then let the committee go into 
 it thoroughly and if they And it neces- 
 sary to divide the work up suh-com- 
 palttees can be appointed to work on it. 
 We understand, of course, that their 
 findings are not to be final. They are 
 to report back here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If there are no objec- 
 tions, Seneca, Marseilles and Morris 
 will be included in this motion. 
 
 (On the motion to refer the operators 
 voted Yes, the miners voted Yes, and 
 ix was carried.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that the 
 northern Illinois committee be allowed 
 to meet in this room this afternoon. 
 (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 Mr. Mitchell sugge^ed that a com- 
 mittee be appointed to consider a scale 
 for Lincoln, Niantic and Colfax. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I move that the 
 Seventh district operators: and miners 
 meet at 'two o'clock. (Seconded and 
 carried.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I w'ould suggest, for 
 the purpose of facilitating business, 
 that a committee of the Ninth district 
 operators and miners meet this after- 
 noon. If we are to have reports of 
 committees tomorrow we ought to have 
 them all brought in here for open dis- 
 cussion. 
 
 MR. HEFTI; — ^We are willing to 
 meet the operators and bring a report 
 in here tomorrow morning. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Newsam the oper- 
 ators and miners of the Eighth dis- 
 trict decided to meet in the afternoon. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you that a 
 committee composed of Mr. Shafer and 
 some miners' representatives take up 
 the matter of Assumption. (Seconded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 A suggestion was made thajt this in- 
 clude Litchfield. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — That will be taken care 
 of withi the C. & A. sub-district. 
 
 Adjoiurnment. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 Peoria, 111., February 28, 1902. 
 The committee was called to order 
 at 9:30 a. m. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— When the 
 committee adjourned yesterday a num- 
 bei- of questions had been referred to 
 the operators and miners from the dif- 
 ferent districts. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The committee from 
 the First district agreed upon the 
 thick vein price, Streator, Cardiff and 
 associated mines, Including Toluoa 
 thick vein. Thsy disagreed on the 
 Wilmington and LaSalle thln-veln 
 price, and on the Marseilles and Seneca 
 matter. They are still before the com- 
 mittee. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— The opera;tors from 
 Marseilles and Seneca are here. They 
 would like to leave the city early this 
 afternoon. If the miners' delegates 
 from Marseilles and Seneca are ready, 
 the operators will be glad toi take the 
 matter up with them. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't think there 
 are any representatives from those 
 places in the hall. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is an added ob- 
 jection to that; It is hardly practicable 
 to determine their rate before the Wil- 
 mington field is fixed. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There was a conference 
 in regard to the Fourth district. Is 
 that commititee ready to report? 
 
 MR. PUTERBA.IiGH:— I believe the 
 operators and delegates from Decatur 
 agreed on last yekr's rate. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— The question of De- 
 catur was settled between the opera- 
 tor and delegate frbm that place. As 
 I understand it, it is only a local ques- 
 tion. Niantic, Colfax, Moweaqua and 
 Assumption we want a little more time 
 on. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— We want to 
 change the wording in the miners' scale 
 here, and I think i am going to pro- 
 pose something that will meet with 
 the approval of the miners. The 
 miners' scale reads: "Nos. 1, 3 and 4, 
 Gartside, 60 cents, including 14 Inches 
 of brushing (for bottom bench). 
 Poole's mine 85 cents. Schmit Gall 75 
 cents, with present conditions." 
 
 I desire to substitute the wording, 
 "The lower bench in Jackson county 
 for shipping mines." I would like 
 that wording in here. Now as to 
 the rate of 45 cents that was 
 adopted for Jackson county, we want 
 to add, "All coal five feet and under 
 five cents extra." That is how w^e 
 would like to ha\ie it worded. If it 
 meets with the approval of the miners. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— We have no objec- 
 tion to the last suggestion. Concern- 
 ing the bottom bench we agreed to dis- 
 agree. Their contention has been In 
 this convention, as it was a year ago, 
 that there was four feet of coal there, 
 and they offered a price of 53 cents. 
 We in a measure accepted that, pro- 
 vided they would give us two cents a 
 ton for every inch of decrease. They 
 refused to do that. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I would like to 
 answer that. I made no motion to 
 make the rate 53 cents. Mr. Gartside 
 claims that vein is four feet. The men 
 have stated repeatedly that it is not 
 four feet. One of the men who has 
 worked in that vein claims it is only 
 three feet eight Inches. 
 
54 
 
 Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— Can we not have 
 some basis for tlie measurement of 
 that coal? That was my suggestion. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Mr. Huggins did 
 suggest that. We still stood by our 
 four feet. Mr. Huggins proposed that 
 for each inch under four feet two cents 
 additional be paid to the eight cents 
 we had offered, starting in with the 
 rate of 53 cents which we offered. 
 When they discovered that we wanted 
 to settle on a different basis from 
 what we started out with, as they 
 supposed, that is what came about. If 
 we offered one cent for each Inch de- 
 crease of measurement it would give 
 them for the four inches four cents 
 additional, and that added to our 53 
 cents would make 57 cents. We cannot 
 pay that, and Mr. Gartside cannot pay 
 it. His mine haS' been idle since last 
 April. He has not raised a pound of 
 coal since the committee went down 
 there. Some of the men want to go 
 to work. We contend that if that coal 
 runs over four feet — they claiming it 
 will not run over three feet eight inches 
 — we want a reduction for each one 
 inch it runs over four feet. I think 
 that is perfectly fair. I don't see how 
 any exceptions can be taken to that. 
 We want to- limit that one cent so 
 that it will not go below the regular 
 rate. This same thing came up before 
 in the meeting in St. Louis, and we 
 hold now as we held then a consistent 
 position. We don't want them, after 
 they find out the basis on which we 
 are figuring, to take our basis and then 
 add on two cents for each inch it de- 
 creases in measurement. In St. Louis 
 the statement was made that there 
 was only 25 per cent of screenings. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Who made that 
 guarantee, or who said the amount of 
 screenings would not run over twenty- 
 five per cent? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— That statement 
 was made by a number of miners. I 
 never heard anyone guarantee it. That 
 was the contention. They made this 
 argument in our committee meeting, 
 that that coal was 3 feet 8 inches; that 
 it would produce very little screenings; 
 that the dirty coal and fine coal all 
 came out of the upper vein, and that 
 there was a great deal of fine coal in it 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I made the state- 
 ment in St. Louis when I met Mr. Gar- 
 rison there, that that coal was 75 per 
 cent lump, and I repeat that statement 
 here. Under the condition Mr. Gart- 
 side is working his mine today, they 
 are working machines and throwing 
 the screenings back in the gob. The 
 men want to go to work there, but 
 they will not and cannot go to work 
 at the price the company has offered. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Have we not 
 agreed to meet your rate, on your own 
 statements? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— And haven't we 
 agreed to meet yours? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— No; you have not. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Tour contention is 
 
 that the coal is four feet, and in some 
 places over that. You offered us a 53- 
 cent rate; we accepted with the proviso 
 that for every inch decrease we would 
 get two cents a ton extra. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Tou contended It 
 was 3 feet 8 inches. The man working 
 in that shaft said the same thing. We 
 are willing, on our basis, to grfve you 57 
 cei;ts, which is the price you asked 
 yesterday if we give you the one cent 
 extra for every inch it decreases to 
 that extent. I think it is fair to the 
 man working there that we take his 
 statement. 
 
 I should like to make a motion that 
 the language of this section be chang- 
 ed. I move that the changes in the 
 wc-rding be made as I stated it a few 
 moments ago, "Lower bench Jackson 
 county, for shipping mines." Then fol- 
 lowing the 45-cent rate we have agreed 
 upon "All coal five feet and under five 
 cents extra." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. STRAWHN: — ^We are not in 
 favor of that motion; you are trying 
 to get that lower vein out. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Not at all. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We are not very 
 fai- apart on the question of prices 
 down there, but I think the wording 
 of the amendment will cause objec- 
 tions to be made. I think we had bet- 
 ter refer the matter to the committee 
 again. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— This is the way 
 we agreed upon It yesterday. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I have no objec- 
 tions to that. It includes the bottom 
 bench, and that is what we want. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 matter be referred back to the commit- 
 tee who considered It yesterday. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I regret to report 
 that that portion of the Seventh dis- 
 trict represented by Williamson county 
 failed to come to any agreement, ex- 
 cept to report to this committee a dis- 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— "What about the Eighth 
 district? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— We have not done 
 much. We would like to have a little 
 more time. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The Eighth district 
 committee will go to work at the first 
 opportunity. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— If there are no ob- 
 jections to my doing so, I would like 
 to go back to the Third district. I 
 move that the price at Lincoln and 
 Niantic be 53 cents. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— At the time the 
 Springfield price was taken up in the 
 convention it was coupled with the 
 Niantic, Lincoln and Colfax rates, and 
 was lost. There is no dispute about 
 Springfield. I move that the price for 
 Springfield and associated mines be 
 fixed at 49.7 cents. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 
Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 55 
 
 price at Colfax be fixed at 53 cents. 
 (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move you that 
 the price for Decatur be fixed at 64 
 cents, "with ithe understanding that the 
 local eomditlons in dispute at the pres- 
 ent time be referred back there to be 
 taken up for adjustment. (Seconded.) 
 MR. LUKENS:— I understand the 
 controversy 'in Decatur is over the 
 width of the room. They wish this 
 referred back for local settlement. Mr. 
 Armstrong is willing to have this done. 
 Otherwise present conditions will con- 
 tinue. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That is my under- 
 standing. I think Mr. Armstrong, the 
 delegate and myself understand this 
 matter thoroughly. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— That is my un- 
 derstanding. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 
 voted Yes, and the motion was carried.) 
 
 MR. PRORER:— Mt. Pulaski ought to 
 
 have a lower rate. They are barred 
 
 from the market. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I move that the rate 
 for the mines on the C. & A., south 
 of Springfield, to and including Carlin- 
 ville; including- Taylorville, Pana, 
 Litchfield, Hillsboro, Witt, Paisley, 
 Divemom and Pawnee be 49 cents a 
 ton. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I move to make 
 Litchfield 49 cents, coal five feet and 
 under 54 cents; this shall also apply to 
 the C. & A. sub-district. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The operators of the 
 C. & A. sub-district are decidedly op- 
 posed to that motion. There is verx 
 little coal there that goes under five 
 feet. Occasionally it may happen, but 
 very little of it will go under five feet, 
 or down to: five feet. "WTien the rate 
 was fixed for that district the operators 
 attempted to bring in the fact that the 
 naural conditions there were such that 
 the men could make very gokDd wages 
 at those prices — in fact, that they 
 could make very high wages. The con- 
 tention was made by the miners that 
 the earning power of a man should 
 not enter into the case at all; that 
 the price was fixed solely upon the 
 competitive conditions, and that that 
 rate was necessary in order to equalize 
 competitive conditions over the state. 
 Now, if that is true there can be no 
 good reason for fixing a higher rate for 
 those mines. No one can claim that a 
 mine which has the higher rate can 
 compete in the competitive field or with 
 the other mines in that district; the 
 position is not consistent and cannot 
 be defended on any logical grounds. 
 In that field the natural conditions are 
 such that the miners can make very 
 high wages. "We have had men on our 
 pay roll make as high as eleven dollars 
 a day. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Have you any of those 
 places vacant now? 
 MR. LUKENS:— I think we can find 
 
 one. 
 MR. RYAN:- 
 
 -Get one for me. 
 
 MR. LUKENS;— We will certainly op- 
 pose any higher rate for that district 
 until the conditions get so bad that a 
 man cannot make what is considered 
 ordinary wages. When that point la 
 reached, if it ever can be reached in 
 that district, it might be a proper sub- 
 ject for discussion; now It certainly is 
 not. Until that point is reached there' 
 are no grounds for asking for a higher - 
 rate for low ooial. 
 
 MR. DELEHii^NTT:— I woiuld like to 
 know in which of your mines they 
 make eleven dollars a day? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— In the Vlrden mines, 
 and it can probably be done in the! 
 other mines as easy. , 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I have dug coal 
 in the Virden mines, and I haven't a 
 record yet of making three dollars a 
 day. I never did, and in the mines 
 where he says they make eleven dollars 
 a day, I can cite you instances where 
 they do worse than three. A man came 
 up to me three months ago with three 
 docks on his statement amounting to 
 seven dollars, and it broughti the man 
 out in debt 35 cents. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— A man who is send- 
 ing out dirty coal is not entitled to 
 much. He ought to lose. A man who 
 hasn't more regard for his own interest 
 and for the interest of his employer 
 and his felloiw miners is not entitled to 
 very much consideration. You all know 
 that there are many different kinds of 
 people in this world. We have them 
 in our mines, and they are in all the 
 mines. I did not say that every man in 
 that mine makes eleven dollars a day. 
 If they did some of them would not 
 go in but about once a pay. There is 
 no question that they can make good 
 wages there. 
 
 So far as low coal is concerned, I 
 might say that that question takes care 
 of itself there. If a man does not like 
 the place he works in he simply picks 
 up his kit and goes somewhere else. 
 There is no danger of the miners there 
 being Imposed upon. As a matter of 
 fact, a man can make good wages in 
 any thickness of coal we have in that 
 district. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I came here bo 
 do business for the men of "Virden, and 
 I believe Mr. Lukens has agreed that I 
 am a good man to do business with. 
 To prove my statement as to the 
 earning power of the men in "Virden, I 
 can have here statements -tO' prove that 
 the earnings of the miners in that shaft 
 for the past six months are not what 
 may be called high. I did not bring 
 the records here, but I can get them 
 here in a short time. He referred to 
 dirty coal. He is right, we have had 
 considerable trouble with dirty coal, 
 but that is not to be considered here. 
 As ta the eleven dollars a day, it may 
 be there are extreme cases where men 
 have done that, but if they have I 
 never heard of it. Take the average 
 miner of the pit, and take everything 
 into consideration, and you will find 
 
56 
 
 Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 they do not make such very large 
 ■wages. The wages will not exceed three 
 dollars a day. That is taking the en- 
 trymen right through the pit. I shall 
 have evidence here before long to show 
 that I am right. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I would like 
 to ask Mr. Delehanty a question. In 
 what mine In the C. & A. sub-district 
 does the coal run to five feet, or even 
 to six feet? 
 
 MR. DBLBHAWTT:— I havei It from 
 the delegate from Ditchfleld and the 
 delegate from Chatham that the coal 
 there runs under five feet in places, 
 and under four fef-t in other places. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Is the dele- 
 gate from Chathf.m here? 
 
 MR. HILiLIER:— Yes sir. It runs be- 
 low that in the different entries. 
 
 MR. MOORSSHEAD:— About how 
 much of the working face is below six 
 feet? 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— A third or a half 
 of It. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Tou are will- 
 ing to go on record ithat half of the 
 Chatham mine is five feet and under? 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— "Well, then, 
 everything I have heard of the Chat- 
 ham mine is misleading. 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— I have worked in 
 coal at Chatham that came down as 
 low as three and a half feeet, and I 
 got no compensation for it Mr. Lu- 
 kens says there is no contention about 
 low coal in any of the mines there. I 
 say there is. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I made no such 
 statement. 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— I understood that 
 you did. You said If a room did not 
 suit a man he could take his tools and 
 get another place. If yooi get a room 
 that is three and a half or four feet, 
 and you ask the boss for another place, 
 the boss will tell you he hasn't any 
 other places, and you will have to move. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— "What is the 
 maximum height of the coal in that 
 mine? 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— About six feet. The 
 mine in Chatham is bothered with a 
 bad roof, and in order toi hold that roof 
 they have to leave all the way from 
 eight to ten inches of coal. In other 
 places they have rock top. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — Does that 
 thin coal vary in thickness? In other 
 words, in the part of the mine where 
 the minimum coal is found, does It 
 ever change and become six or seven 
 feet? 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— In some places It 
 does; in others it does not. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— How would 
 you expect to handle a mine like that 
 and keep those figures correctly, if 
 you are going to put In a scale of 
 wages with conditions as you expect 
 to? 
 
 MR. HILLIER:— "Where a room of 
 thirty feet runs eight or ten yards at 
 that height the man should be paid 
 
 extra compensation; but when it ran 
 higher again he vrould have to relin- 
 quish that extra cnmpensatlon. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— In conditions 
 of that kind you can only take the 
 average of a mine and base the wages 
 upon that. A man might be working 
 today in five feet of coal, and tomorrow 
 be in six feet of coal with a good top. 
 You canot regulate those things by 
 measuring today and then tomorrow; 
 you have got to take the average of 
 the mine. If the average is five and 
 one-half feet to six feet, the only way 
 to handle it, to avoid confusion. Is to 
 make a general scale of wages for it. 
 In the room and pillar mines in the 
 state of Illinois there is not one mine 
 where the mining rate is equally fair 
 to all the men who are working there. 
 I call to mind a mine in the Mt. Olive 
 district, our own No. 5. That mine 
 generally has as good conditions as can 
 be found anywhere in the state, an even 
 vein of coal, and yet the roof condi- 
 tions makes it impossible for every 
 man to have a fair chance; there is so 
 much timbering to be done on the 
 north side that he cannot earn from 
 within five to fifteen per cent of w^hat 
 others earn who have better conditions. 
 
 That cannot be regulated under our 
 plan of making wages. This is an un- 
 fortunate state of affairs, but nature 
 has made it so, and we have to do the 
 best we can with it. Fortunately, how- 
 ever, the man who works with a poor 
 roof this month may get a good one 
 next month. It Is only under that plan 
 Qt fixing wages that you can expect to 
 get along with a reasonable degree of 
 peace. You must take the average of 
 the mine, because the thickness varies 
 from month to month and sometimes 
 from day to day. 
 
 So far as I know about Chatham — 
 having no figures — I would not by any 
 means call that a five-foot seam of coal. 
 They may have some coal that is four 
 feet. I know of a lot of mines where 
 they have fo.ur feet tof coal, and yet 
 you could not call the average of the 
 mine less than six or seven feet. The 
 seam varies. That seam is the most 
 uniform seam in the state of Illinois, 
 I believe, unless it is the third vein. 
 For a thick seam it as the most uni- 
 form. There are places, however, 
 where the coal will average six and 
 one-half feet, vet it will run down in 
 some places, and even pinch out alto- 
 gether. My opinioin is that Chatham 
 should stand with the rest of the dis- 
 trict in its mining rate, not only for 
 the reasons I have given, but for the 
 competitive reasons that Mr. Lukens 
 has spoken of. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — Mr. Delehanty 
 seems to lay considerable stress upon 
 the wages made by the men at "Virden, 
 and offers to produce figures showing 
 what their wages have been. If this 
 convention desires to make the rate 
 on the earnlfig power of a man we are 
 willing that you should, for we know 
 
Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 57 
 
 where we will land on that proposition. 
 If you want to do that we will vote 
 "Aye" on a proposition; but we have 
 been through it so often, and had it 
 refused so often, that it is not likely 
 you will consent to anything of the 
 kind. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— We will if you 
 will make a base, of eleven dollars a 
 day for them. > 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The whole thing re- 
 solves itself into a question of com- 
 petition. The mines in that district 
 that would be compelled toi pay a 
 higher rate could not compete with the 
 other mines in the district. It happens 
 that in the districts where they have 
 that rule, that coal Ave feet and under 
 pay five cents extra — ^or whatever 'they 
 pay extra— the coal is of a high grade 
 and they can afford to do it; other- 
 wise they could not. The :^ourth dis- 
 trict is very unfortunately situated 
 geographically. Every coal with which 
 they compete in the market ha? either 
 a lower freight rate or is a better grade 
 of coal; and it is nip and tuck with 
 the mines there to keep their heads 
 above water as it is. They certainly 
 could not stand any additional handi- 
 cap in that direction. 
 
 As for the men making big wages 
 down there, I will agree with Mr. 
 Delehanty that they have not done it 
 this winter. We have had a shortage 
 of cars, and unfortunately the earnings 
 of the men have not been very large. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Moorshead a question.' Mr. 
 Moorshead, did you say that where 
 the coal varies in thickness in one 
 mine that the price should be applied 
 on the average thickness? Is that 
 correct? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Yes, that is 
 what I said. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Then you do not think 
 the price should be applied on the 
 maximum or the minimum thickness, 
 but on the average? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- 1 think the 
 average vould be fair. 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — W^here the coal is thin 
 throughout the mine it would be fair 
 to have an increased price; where it is 
 thick the rpgular price should prevail. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — Competitive 
 conditions enter into, this. I don't 
 think you can flop over on the side of 
 thin coal and get a high mining price, 
 and then when it suits you make an- 
 other price on the average of the vein 
 or on competitive conditions as it suits 
 you. It should be according to market 
 conditions. Tou work that way in the 
 northern field; there is no reason why 
 you should not do it throughout the 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — If the coal is thin 
 throughout the mine the miner should 
 be entitled to extra compensation for 
 mining it; but where it varies from six 
 to five feet the price should be on the 
 average conditions. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— If competi- 
 
 tive conditions allow it, yes; otherwise 
 no. Tliat is the condition under which 
 you have been working for four or five 
 years, so far as I know. • 
 
 (On the amendment 4;he operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and it 
 was lost.j 
 
 (On the original motion the opera- 
 tors voted Yes, the miners voted No, 
 and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that Streat- 
 or, Clarke City and associated mines, 
 including Toluca thick vein be 58 cents. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We have a record 
 of an understanding reached last night 
 that the question of the low coal at 
 the Kangley mine and the price at the 
 Barrackman mine are to be taken up 
 for adjustment there. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We kept a record of 
 our northern Illinois meeting, and I 
 think that will all be included. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It will not be in 
 the record of the scale committee. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and it was carried.) 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— The Ninth district 
 was not able to rally its operators in 
 sufficient, numbers. We ask to have 
 our meeting deferred a little longer. 
 
 MR. GARRISON: —Jackson county 
 has tried toi get together, but failed, so 
 far as any price of the lo'wer bench 
 is concerned; but we would like to 
 change the wording in the miners' 
 agreement to suit the case. 
 
 We would suggest the following 
 wording: "All coal five feet and under 
 five cents extra per ton. This does 
 not apply to lower bench nor rolla nor 
 horsebacks." "Lower bench of Jack- 
 son county for shipping mines." I 
 move that this change be made. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— The committee- on Mar- 
 seilles is ready to report. We have 
 agreed to $1.09 for Marseilles, the rate 
 to continue until September 1st, at 
 which time the conditions are to be In- 
 vestigated by President Russell and 
 myself. If conditions are changed, as 
 now contemplated, an equitable settle- 
 ment shall be made. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Bear in mind that if 
 these crianges make the difference that 
 we £tre led to- understand , will take 
 place, an equitable rate will be made. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— It is understood that 
 the rate remains at $1.09 unless these 
 changes take place. 
 
 (It was moved and seconded that the 
 report be adopted. The operators voted 
 Yes, the miners voted Yes, and the re- 
 port was adopted.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move that the 
 price for Wilmington and associated 
 mines, including Cardiff long wall and 
 Bloomington thin vein. Including 
 brushing, be 81 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think the time has 
 come when it is hardly necessary to 
 have a motion put and voted down 
 without remark. If this is not carried 
 here I should like to have it sent to 
 
58 
 
 Morning Session, February 28. 
 
 the sub-committee. I will withdraw 
 it temporarily, and move that the price 
 for Assumption long wall, under regu- 
 lations- of third vein field, be 65% cents. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. CAMERON:— I move to amend 
 by adding that each additional foot of 
 brushing be 7% cents per ton extra; the 
 price for Assumption to Include dyma- 
 mlte, powder, fuse, caps and squibs, 
 to be furnished by the company to the 
 miner when brushing rock. 
 
 MR. SHAFBR:— We are willing to 
 do as we have done in the past, under 
 the regulations made last y«ar. We 
 are willing to make our local agree- 
 ment as it was last year. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Does the local 
 agreement pay extra for the additional 
 brushing? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— It does; it provides 
 for anything that is extra. Wherever 
 there is extra work we pay for it as 
 provided in the sixteenth clause of the 
 local agreement. There is no additional 
 brushing. The only reason they bring 
 that in is because of the hardened 
 strata in the brushing. Sometimes the 
 miner, to avoid drilling In hard rock, 
 places his shot a half foot above 
 where he would If it was soft. There- 
 fore he will shoot, down a little extra 
 brushing. In that way he will take a 
 little extra rock thinking it is easier 
 and cheaper for him to do It than to 
 drill in the hard rock. Those are the 
 same conditions that have existed since 
 the mine was opened. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We are willing to 
 amend the resolution so as to read: 
 "Assumption long wall under present 
 regulations." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. CAMERON:— I ask that this be 
 kept open until we can consult with 
 the delegate from Assumption. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We are willing to 
 defer it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I now move that the 
 rate for Pontiac, including 24 inches 
 of brushing, be 81 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They are working 
 under third vein conditions now. 
 
 MR. SMITH:— I don't see the dele- 
 gate from Pontiac here. I have no 
 doubt that if it is deferred until this 
 afternoon we can get the delegate from 
 Pontiac here. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The miners' scale reads 
 "Pontiac, including 24 Inches of brush- 
 ing, 81 cents." There is no dispute 
 about It. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- Why cut out the bal- 
 ance and take this? The whole thing 
 is put in the miners' scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The procedure of 
 this committee for the past two days 
 has been picking out points that could 
 be agreed to, leaving the others out. 
 We are not asking to have the price 
 at Pontiac changed. Your price Is the 
 same as ours. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Where their scale 
 and ours are the same we are adopting 
 those sections. 
 MR. PERRY:— Do they pay the 10.9 
 
 cents extra there for cross roads and 
 headings? ,^ ^ 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I could not answer 
 that I know you forced on Pontiac 
 a condition that Is out of line with 
 the rest of the state. They have pro- 
 tested against it; but under the de- 
 mand of the oDerators that there be 
 no change in the rate, we have placed 
 that in our scale at the old price. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I thought you had 
 attached to that third vein conditions. 
 It is all right as it is; we are wiUmg 
 to vote for it. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the mmers 
 voted Yes, and the rate for Pontiac was 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 scale for driving cross roads and head- 
 ings in the third vein field of the First 
 district be 10.9 cents over the regular 
 price. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that that 
 matter be referred to the committee 
 of miners and operators from the third 
 vein field. The argument that will 
 come up on that does not interest the 
 rest of the people here. (Seconded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— W^ho is to be on 
 that committee? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Let the operators select 
 their committee, and the miners select 
 a committee. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The miners have select- 
 ed their committee: Mr. Perry, Spring 
 Valley; Mr. Bennett, LaSalle, and Mr. 
 Leonard, Toluca. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators' commit- 
 tee will be: Mr. Duggan, Mr. Bent, and 
 either Mr. Sweet or Mr. Dalzell. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that a similar 
 committee of operators and miners be 
 appointed to whom shall be referred 
 the question of the controversy in the 
 Wilmington field. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I move to amend that 
 the committee be appointed to take up 
 the question in the miners' scale per- 
 taining to both the Wilmington field 
 and the third vein field. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — We have no contro- 
 versy alone for the Wilmingt'On field. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I certainly understood 
 that the miners were asking the third 
 vein conditions in the Wilmington field. 
 If that is an error, I don't see why we 
 cannot settle the Wilmington field in 
 this committee. If it isn't true, then 
 we need a committee. The idea of a 
 joint committee is not a new one. We 
 worked in joint committee all yester- 
 day afternoon and accomplished noth- 
 ing. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The committee from 
 the third vein has been selected to 
 take up the Question of the demand of 
 the miners for 10.9 for cross roads and 
 headings. I understand that Mr. 
 Perry's motion was that the committee 
 be enlarged to cover the Wilmington 
 field, and to take up any matters in 
 controversy. We have never contended 
 that the five cents we are asking for is 
 the equivalent of the brushing. We 
 
AfTERNooN Session, February 28. 
 
 claim the five cents additional between 
 the fields. 
 
 MR. PERRT:— The five cents we are 
 asking in the Third vein is the equiva- 
 lent of Che brushlnsr, as that is dn dis- 
 pute in the WilmlnKtoin field. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The amendment made 
 by Mr. Perry will be withdrawn. The 
 vote will be on the motion of Mr. Bent 
 to appoint a committee for the Wil- 
 mington field. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion was car- 
 ried.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators will name 
 for that committee: Messrs. Buchanan, 
 Murphy and Zollers. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The miners have nam- 
 ed: Mr. Richards, South Wilmington; 
 Mr, Dagon, Coal City, and Mr. Monag- 
 han, Braidwood. It Is* understood that 
 the committee can bring In the offi- 
 cers from both sides. 
 
 MR. SEATON:— In regard to the 
 deadwork In the mines on the C. & A. 
 and Litchfield. I move that a special 
 committee be appointed to take that 
 matter up. {Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 (The miners appointed the following 
 committee to consider the matter: 
 Mr. Harlan, Litchfield; Mr. Hilller, 
 Chatham, and Mr. Poucher, Carlln- 
 ville.) 
 
 (The operators appointed Messrs. 
 Lukens and Crabb). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Board Member Cahill 
 will be present at the meetings of this 
 committee. 
 
 On motion the committee adjourned 
 to meet at 1:30. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Feb. 28, 1902. 
 The committee was called to order at 
 1:30 p. m. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is the delegate from 
 Assumption ready to report? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I move "That As- 
 sumption long wall, under regulations 
 of third vein field be GSVz cents; each 
 additonal foot of brushing to be paid 
 at the price of 7% cents a ton extra. 
 The price for Assumption shall in- 
 clude dynamite, powder, fuse, caps and 
 squibs, to be furnished by the company 
 to the miner when brushing rock." 
 (Seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and it was declared lost). 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— While we are un- 
 der third vein conditions, we get 65% 
 cents and have to clear out brushing, 
 drill a hole and shoot it. The rock Is 
 so hard it has taken two men half a 
 day with a double handled ratchet to 
 drill a hole. It takes from four to six 
 sticks ot dynamite, to blast the rock 
 down, and the dynamite costs six cents 
 a stick. 
 
 MR. SHAPBR:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Bradley if the condition of the 
 mine has changed any since it was 
 opened, as far as he knows, in this re- 
 spect? 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— I have worked 
 there a year in the past two years. I 
 cannot see that it has changed any. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Was not the brush- 
 ing taken into consideration when the 
 price was fixed? It is just the same 
 now as when the price was fixed, and 
 all these things were taken into con- 
 sideration then. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— I don't know that 
 they were. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Do you know any- 
 thing about the fixing of the price? 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— Yes. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:- Do you know wheth- 
 er the brushing was taken into con- 
 sideration when the price was fixed, 
 or not? 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— No, sir. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— That mine has al- 
 ways been the same. Once in a while 
 you will find places where the brush- 
 ing is hard. That hard place may be 
 six inches thick, it may be a foot, or a 
 foot and' a half, or sometimes up to 
 two feet. It may go as high as two 
 feet, but I don't think it has. In shoot- 
 ing down that brushing, to take down 
 the two feet that are required, it is not 
 necessary to go up two feet wih their 
 drill hole. Sometimes they do go high, 
 because they think it is easier for them 
 to handle a little more rock than to 
 drill in the hard rock. Consequently 
 they do shoot down more rock than Is 
 necessary. That was taken into con- 
 sideration when the price was fixed and 
 was one of the considerations. There 
 is no reason whatever why the price, 
 should be changed. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Is there any reason 
 why the miners at Assumption should 
 do any more work in that line, when 
 they are working under third vein con- 
 ditions, than the miners do in the third 
 vein proper? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:- They are not work- 
 ing under third vein conditions. I 
 have tried to get that wording out. We 
 are not able to work under the third 
 vein conditions. "There are a great 
 many things we are not able to do in 
 Assumption that are done in the third 
 vein field. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you understand the 
 clause in the operators' scale. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Yes, and as far as 
 they apply that is true. In the third 
 vein field thev do not pay for entry 
 driving at all and we do pay for yard- 
 ag'e. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Why should you do 
 anything in that field that is riot done 
 in the third vein field proper? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— You must under- 
 .<!tand that in the Assumption mine the 
 mining is done in the coal, not in the 
 clay. Conditions are different. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you know any place 
 in the third vein field where' miners 
 have to use from two to four sticks of 
 dynamite to do their brushing? 
 
 MR.' SHAFER:- No: but that Is the 
 way it has always been done in the 
 Assumption mine. Every time they 
 
60 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 28. 
 
 stick a pick into the mining- they _ get 
 paid for it. They are not dig-ging six- 
 teen or eig-hteen inches of fire clay and 
 throwing it bade into the gob. They 
 are paid for every time they put a pick 
 in the coal. They are able to earn more 
 money and with less trouble in As- 
 sumption than they are in the third 
 vein field. It is never known how high 
 the rock extends. Sometimes it is for 
 a single shot; sometimes it is for two 
 or three yards. I never knew it to go 
 over twenty feet. Tou cannot tell how 
 high it will go, neither can you tell the 
 thickness. Sometimes there may be 
 only one place in the mine where there 
 will be hard rock; then ag-aln there may 
 be four or five or six places. It varies; 
 but rarely ever is there over a dozen 
 places in the mine where there is hard 
 rock. The vein is very irregular; it 
 follows the valley. We are mining in 
 the valley, and as the sides Of the coal 
 are coming and going-, receding, it 
 causes the irregularity in our work. 
 Sometimes we have to drive through 
 the thin portions of the mine in the 
 sidfe of the valley for the purpose of 
 carrying our air. The extra work is 
 all paid for. If anything of that kind 
 occurs they get paid for deficient work. 
 Rolls and horsebacks and things of 
 that kind are paid for. There have 
 been- no changes in the conditions from 
 the day the mine was opened to the 
 present time. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— Did you ever pay 
 for a roll there? 
 
 MR. SHAFBR: — Yes, sir; we are pay- 
 ing for one now. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— In what part of 
 the shaft? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— In the southwest 
 part, in the second entry, where the 
 miners reported we had ten feet of 
 coal. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— There are two 
 veins of coal there, about six to eigh- 
 teen feet apart. The bottom vein went 
 down about three or four feet, and the 
 top vein came down the same, but there 
 is still four feet of rock between them, 
 and the rock is where the bottom vein 
 ought to be, and the bottom vein is 
 down below. No man could make ten 
 cents a day digging rock there. 
 There is a place there where the 
 miner had to strip the roll first before 
 he was paid. He was doing- all that 
 extra brushing for nothing; Ae didn't 
 get a cent for It. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— "What did he make 
 per day? 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— About fifteen dol- 
 lars for the two weeks. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Do you know what 
 he made? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I know he m-ade 
 that the last pay he worked there. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I think that is cov- 
 ered by the agreement. Any deficient 
 work is paid for according to the 
 agreement. I don't think they can 
 show that at any time the agreement 
 has been violated; not once. Where- 
 
 ever there is any deficient work it has 
 been paid for. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— I was on the pit 
 committee there. There was a place 
 where there was three and a. half feet 
 of coal. It dropped down on one side 
 about two feet and went up on the 
 other side about the same. That leaves 
 the coal about eight inches or a 
 foot thick on the roll, and the roll 
 comes down in the roof, too. That 
 rock is hard, and the men worked half 
 a day to drill an eight-inch hole. They 
 asked to have the company men sent 
 in to drill the hole, and they said thev 
 would not be sent In; that the agree- 
 ment did not call for that. They fin- 
 ally eaid they would send one man in 
 to help drill the hole. 
 
 W. T. MORRIS:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Shafer a Question. You stated 
 you knew of no place where the brush- 
 ing was over two feet? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— That the hard rock 
 was over two feet. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Didn't you apply 
 that to ithe brushine:? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— No, sir; I said some- 
 times they did put the hole higher up 
 to strike the soft strata, and sometimes 
 they did shoot down more than that. 
 They do that sometimes of their own 
 free will, because they think it is eas- 
 ier and cheaper for them .0 do th-'t. 
 They are not compelled to do it. "We 
 never require more than two feet. 
 
 MR. MORRIS: — "Where the hard rock 
 appears it is an exception? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Yes, sir. It only 
 runs in streaks; there Is no regularity 
 about it. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— If it is an exception 
 I do not see why you should have anv 
 very serious objection to furnishine 
 the dynamite, powder, fuse, caps and 
 squibs where that condition exists? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Because it Is the 
 same condition that existed from the 
 beginning. I found also that it is a 
 very expensive practice to furnish any- 
 thing for nothing. I have found out 
 that a free horse is ridden where walk- 
 ing would do better. "We shut down 
 the mine one summer to stop that. I 
 will now answer Mr. Bradley's ques- 
 tion. He said when an unusual con- 
 dition occurred the miners were given 
 help, which proves my contention that 
 when such a condition does exist thev 
 are paid for it or helped out. "We do 
 this, and never fail to do It. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— A delegate here 
 from Assumption had the same trouble. 
 He had a roll and got nothing for it. 
 He was told that he would be paid 
 for it, but when pay day came he never 
 got a cent. You have not been keeping 
 the agreement during the year. If 
 they are not paid for this work, It is 
 his place to pay it when it is turned 
 into the office. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— "Vt^henever the pay 
 is turned in the superintendent says 
 what they have made. Ii they have 
 
Aftbrnoon Session, February 28. 
 
 61 
 
 not maoB up to $2.25 they are made up 
 to that when their work is deficient 
 work. When they are not working in 
 deficient work they are not paid. No 
 one could do that. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— Last spring when 
 this question came up on the part of 
 the miners, that low coal was not the 
 only thing that constituted deficient 
 work. They contended that It was 
 very nearly impossible for the men to 
 drill holes through that rock. They 
 asked that the company furnish a rat- 
 chet. We adopted a clause which he 
 has failed to live up to. It carried 
 with it the condition in that mine, that 
 when a miner could not make $2.25 a 
 day he should be paid enough to make 
 it up to that. Mr. Shafer contended 
 that on account of the indolent nature 
 of some of the miners they would not 
 give him a full day's work on account 
 of this provision. I think it is neces- 
 sary for the company to furnish the 
 dynamite and other things asked for 
 in line with the agreement nnade a 
 year ago. Now he says he did not 
 agree to give it, but he did. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— Yesterday was the 
 first time this contention was made, 
 either by the miners here or elsewhere, 
 that we agreed to pay that $2.25 clear. 
 Last year the statement was made that 
 we would pay the same as we had 
 heretofore. We had paid it before, we 
 have paid It since, but we have never 
 agreed to furnish anything. Mr. Wil- 
 son's memory is at fault when he makes 
 that statement. We agreed to do what 
 we had done before, but we never did 
 that. We did exactly this year what 
 we did before. I deny that we have 
 failed to keep the contract. He said 
 we never furnished the ratchet drill. 
 He is mistaken. I have had ratchet 
 drills from Coal City, made there five 
 or six years ago, and they got that 
 drill whenever they desired it, not only 
 this year, but long ago. We have had 
 the ratchet drill from other places. We 
 ordered it for the purpose of shooting 
 the bottom rock in lowering our roads; 
 but occasionally there would be a hard 
 strata of rock, and they have used it 
 for that, and they have never been re- 
 fused the use of the drill. We have re- 
 fused to do the work for them. 
 
 MR. W^ILSON:— Your explanation 
 does not agree with the provisions of 
 the agreement. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— It does, exactly; it 
 says we will agree to make them up to 
 $2.25 for deficient work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When you eay deficient 
 work you stop there. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I do not think it 
 contemplated the hard rock. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— It says when the 
 miner on account of low coal or other 
 deficient work. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— That is correct; but 
 it did not contemplate the hard rock. 
 That rock comes often where the coal 
 runs four feet and over. It is not be- 
 cause the miners cannot make $2.25 a 
 
 day there, because they do make that 
 and more. 
 
 , MR. WILSON:— We took this matter 
 up, and Mr. Shafer is right about the 
 drill. He has one drill there, and that 
 is all he had last spring. In numerous 
 instances it has occurred that four or 
 five of the places needed it at the same 
 time. I have known instances in As- 
 sumption where they have drilled all 
 the forenoon and only made a hole 
 eight Inches deep. They should have' 
 a smaller thread and more machines. 
 The superintendent was called in and 
 we framed this clause. The clause 
 was originally, "the miner on account 
 of low coal or otherwise," and we 
 changed to read. "The miner on ac- 
 count of low coal or other deficient 
 work." We made it very plain to them 
 that it meant that the men were to be 
 paid enough to make the wage $2.25 a 
 day. The only new clause that was 
 made was this particular one. We re- 
 affirmed the last year's agreement, and 
 were on the point of signing it when 
 the men contended for something for 
 deficient work. Mr. Shafer said the 
 practice had been to pay by the day 
 for this work. I asked him what he 
 paid, and he said $2.10. We made a 
 nominal rate on the deficient work of 
 $2.25, not on account of low coal, but 
 en account of a condition that would 
 decrease the earning power of the men. 
 The agreement is plain. If it does 
 not mean that it does not mean any- 
 thing. That is what we want. We 
 contend that something will be insert- 
 ed in the state agreement to compel Mr. 
 Shafer to live up to his agreement. If 
 he does not live up to his agreement, 
 we will not live up to ours. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I don't like to hear 
 that statement repeated. We have 
 lived up to our contract. The delegate 
 himself says we have done so. He says 
 when the roof was unusually hard we 
 did make the wages up to $2.25. When- 
 ever rolls or anything of that kind 
 exist on account of which they do not 
 make up to that amount, we make It 
 up. We pay for the hard places, as we 
 have always done when the earning 
 power of the miners has been decreased 
 below that point. We have never ob- 
 jected to paying for it. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— The place I men- 
 tion, where it took the men half a 
 day to drill an eight-inch hole, I asked 
 Mr. Devlin, the mine manager, if he 
 would pay the men $2.25, and he said 
 he would not, that he had company 
 men they were .paying $2.25 a day to, 
 and they would do the work. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:- 1 don't doubt that 
 he refused to pay some men $2.25 a 
 day, because they are inot worth it. 
 The clause says this is to be based on 
 a fair day's wOrk. We had that put in 
 because we had men there that could 
 not and would not earn a dollar a day. 
 
 MR. OSSOLO:— Did you pay $2.25 a 
 day to any one there? You agreed to 
 pay it, but when pay day comes around 
 
62 
 
 Afternoon Session, February 28. 
 
 there are four or five dollars for dyna- 
 mite and fuses and such things. The 
 coal is SO' low we have toi shovel our 
 rock fifteen or twenty feet each side to 
 the s:oh. 
 
 MR. SHAFBR:— I understand that 
 is the case, but they say there is less 
 work in doins' that than In the third 
 vein where they must handle all the 
 dirt they take out from under 
 their coal. One of our miners, one of 
 the best we had in the mine, always 
 liad good work and always had a good 
 place, happened to get into a little hard 
 rock that lasted longer than he thought 
 it ought to, and because he thought 
 he was so good and could get any- 
 thing he asked for, he wanted to get 
 out of the place, and threatened If he 
 did not get out he would leave. Hei 
 did not get It, because the other miners 
 objected to him having advantages. 
 He left the work and went to Spring 
 Valley, but after three months came 
 back, and was glad to get back. The 
 man who took his place made but one 
 shot before he came to soft strata, and 
 was in the soft strata until it was 
 worked out. 
 
 MR. OSSOLO:— He worked five 
 months and was not able to make $1.50 
 a day on the average. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— He was glad to get 
 back, and he is there today, as are all 
 of his boys. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY: — Did you ever go in 
 the mines in Assumption and come 
 across any place where they were min- 
 ing in the clay, as they did up in the 
 third vein. 
 MR. SHAFER:— Yes, sir. 
 MR. BRADLEY:— Why do they mine 
 in the clay? 
 
 MR. SHAFER: — Beca.use they can 
 mine there better. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— They took up eigh- 
 teen inches of bottom this winter. I 
 did this mvself. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I never saw any 
 
 hole dug under the coal eighteen inches. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— How high was the 
 
 coal where I was mining in the clay? 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— I don't know. Three 
 
 feet or tliree and a half, I think. 
 
 MR. BRADLEY:— I had two feet four 
 Inches of coal. The roll came nearly 
 down to the bottom. 
 
 MR. SHAFER:— As far as the rolls 
 are concerned there is no -mlsunder- 
 standing can take place among men 
 who understand coal mines. If it is - 
 only an inch thick you would have 
 to do the same thing. 
 
 MR. ZELLERS:— It .seems to me to 
 be a peculiar construction Mr. Shafer 
 has put on the agreement he signed 
 himself. They all agree that he has 
 contracted to pay the men $2.25 on de- 
 ficient work. To make himself safe he 
 turns round and charges them for the 
 supplies. If the right construction was 
 put on the present agreement I think 
 it would be satisfactory. I don't think 
 their wages should be cut >down by 
 deducting for supplies furnished them 
 
 by the company to do that work. A 
 man working by the day for a com- 
 pany is not supposed to furnish the 
 supplies with which he works. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— His position Is not 
 a fair one. He contends that the cus- 
 tom at Assumption mine has been to 
 pay for the very condition the miners 
 are asking to be paid for. If that be 
 the case I cannot understand why there 
 should be any more argument along 
 this line. He says he is willing to pay 
 for it; that is all we want. We want 
 a clause inserted in the agreement that 
 will make him do this. We don't want 
 a clause on which he can place his 
 own construction. The agreement 
 should be very plain, and when it says 
 "deficient work" we want it to mean 
 deficient work, not what Mr. Shafer's 
 opinion of deficient work is. I ask that 
 this question be deferred until some 
 other time. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — If there are no objec- 
 tions the question w^ill be deferred. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Why not settle the 
 mining price in the C. I& A. sub-dis- 
 trict? You can settle everything ex- 
 cept the matter that has been referred 
 to the special committee. We might 
 get the rest of the matter out of the 
 way before the committee reports. I 
 understand there is no controversy in 
 that district except concerning the 
 matter that has been referred to the 
 special committee. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— There is the matter 
 of thin coal. It should all go together. 
 We don't care to have that taken up 
 separately. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It will have to be tajien 
 up separately, because nothing has 
 been referred except the thin coal. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— A motion will settle 
 the whole matter. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I understand there Is 
 some difference of opinion between the 
 Fana miners and their operators. I 
 suggest that they get together and see 
 If they cannot fix up their differences. 
 MR. OVERHOLT:— I am the only 
 one present. Mr. Piiterbaugh and Mr. 
 Penwell have left the city. 
 
 MR. MURPHY:— The difference is on 
 account of the narrow work. We have 
 had considerable trouble in Pana In 
 regard to narrow work. W^e are six- 
 teen cents below Witt on entry work, 
 and ion the narrow work and rooni 
 turning we don't receive anything, 
 while Witt received $1.76 a yard for 
 turning rooms. For cross bars they 
 receive thirty-six cents a bar, where we 
 don t receive anything. Also on horse- 
 backs. 
 
 MR. HBFTI:— I move that the Pana 
 miners and operators take this matter 
 up jomtly and report back to the com- 
 mittee anything they may agree upon. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. OVERHOLT:— Mr. Puterbaugh 
 was called home by a telegram this 
 mornmg. Mr. Penwell is not here, and I 
 would like to have this deferred until 
 they return. In the first place we do 
 
Morning Session, March 1. 
 
 63 
 
 not pay the same price for yardage and 
 room turndnff that Witt does, but In 
 the settlement that was made some two 
 or three years ago these concessions 
 were granted to us In lieu of our pay- 
 ing the scale that was imposed upon 
 us, which we thought was unjust. I 
 believe the agreement that was reach- 
 ed in Indianapolis was that no condi- 
 tions would be imposed upon the opera- 
 tors that would increase the cost of 
 their .product this year. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — You are mistaken. 
 There was no such agreement reached 
 at Indianapolis, i 
 
 MR. OVERHOLT:— Then I am mis- 
 taken. We have had a great deal of 
 trouble in Pana; we have had our share 
 of difficulties there. We have spent 
 time and money, and we think the 
 record we have established has been 
 fully proven. I now ask that this be 
 deferred until such time as I can get 
 Mr. Puterbaugh and Mr. Penwell here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You and Mr. Murphy 
 can take the matter up and arrange for 
 a meeting whenever It is most con- 
 venient. 
 
 (The motion to refer was carried.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— W^hy not take up the 
 question of long wall work in Kin- 
 mundy? 
 
 MR. HULL:— There is no long wall 
 work in Kinmundy. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then what Is the pleas- 
 ure of the committee? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move you 
 that the resolutions in the operators' 
 scale, outside of the mining prices, be 
 adopted. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the motion was lost) 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I move you that 
 the resolutions presented by the miners 
 be adopted. ' (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. BAGWILL;— I move that the 
 mining price for Franklin county be 
 forty-five cents. (Seconded by Mr. 
 Jeremiah.) 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — ^We are not willing 
 to fix any price for Franklin county 
 at the present moment. There are no 
 operators here from Franklin county, 
 and we don't believe in fixing condi- 
 tions In any district when the repre- 
 sentatives of that district are not 
 present. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — They are mining coal 
 ir Franklin county. Why do you ob- 
 ject to fixing a price for It? 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— They are mining 
 coal in Alaska. There are no operators 
 representing Franklin county here. Are 
 there any delegates here from Franklin 
 county among the miners? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There are delegates 
 here In a position to make a rate for 
 Franklin county. We are ready to take 
 It up at any time. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS: —Where are the 
 mines In Franklin cotinty? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Near Christopher. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— On what road is 
 that? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— It Is a locaJ mine. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— It is on the El- 
 dorado division of the Illinois Central. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— Does it ship any 
 coal? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— By wagon or rail- 
 road? 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— By railroad. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I move you that the 
 matter of a scale for Franklin county 
 be referred to Mr. Justl, the commis- 
 sioner of the operators' association, 
 and Mr. Bagwill for the miners. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Reynolds.) 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— We have no au- 
 thority to act on Franklin county. We 
 have no members from there. 
 
 MR. W. S WILSON (Operator) :— I 
 would like to know where the coal 
 mines are located in Franklin couhty? 
 
 MR. BAG^VILL:- Near Benton. 
 
 MR. W. S. WILSON:— On the rail- 
 road? 
 
 MR.' BAGWILL:— I understand it is 
 not right on the railroad; but there is 
 a spur out there. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I move you that Frank- 
 lin county be passed. (Seconded by 
 Mr. Peabody.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— A motion to refer is 
 before the committee. 
 
 (On the motion to refer the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and it 
 was lost.) 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I move you that 
 we take up the operators' resolutions 
 seriatim. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— There has been an un- 
 derstanding with those who are absent 
 on committee that neither the opera- 
 tors' nor the miners' resolutions will 
 be taken up until the entire scale com- 
 mittee is present. 
 
 MR. PEABODY: — I thought we 
 might possibly find some things that 
 are identical on both scales and get 
 them out of the way. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You might find some- 
 thing that those present might agree 
 on, and some of those who are absent 
 might object to. I think it is better 
 to let that rest until the full commit- 
 tee is present. I do no think It would 
 be best to^ take up any of the resolu- 
 tions in their absence. We have agreed 
 not to do so. 
 
 MR. PEABODY:— I move that we 
 adjourn the scale committee until 9:30 
 Saturday morning. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 1, 1902. 
 The joint scale committee was called 
 to order at 9:30 a. m. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Bowen, of Mor- 
 ris, Is here. We deferred action on his 
 case until he could arrive. I now move 
 you that he, the delegate from his place, 
 Mr. Justi, and whatever ofilcial you 
 may designate, constitute a committee 
 
64 
 
 Morning Session, March 1. 
 
 01: four to consider this matter. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— The committee from 
 the third vein field were unable to 
 agree, the representatives of the min- 
 ers Insisting upon extra compensation 
 for cross roads, and the representatives 
 of the operators positively declining 
 to add anything to the cost of produc- 
 ing their coal. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Have the miners on 
 that committee any report to make? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have none. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is the' committee ap- 
 pointed to consider the Wilmington 
 field ready to report? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — Our committee has 
 no report to make at this time. We 
 were unable to agree. We had a con- 
 ference and talked the matter over 
 fully. The operators stated that they 
 could not ooinsider anything that would 
 add" to the cost of their coal in any 
 way. The miners insisted on certain 
 changes in the conditions, and we dis- 
 agreed. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is there any report 
 from Assumption? 
 
 MR. SHAPER:— I have not been able 
 to find the delegates. From Moweaqua 
 the information has not arrived that 
 we are waiting for. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move that we have 
 Clarke City in this scale, lower seam, 
 66 cents, brushing in the coal. I don't 
 know whether you have it in your 
 scale, and it hajs seemed to be over- 
 looked in our discussion. We have not 
 had the matter up at all. If there is 
 a delegate here from Clarke City, I 
 would like to hear from him. 
 
 Inasinuch as so many of the mem- 
 bers from both sides are absent work- 
 ing on special committees, It Is very 
 evident that we cannot take up any- 
 thing that will require discussion. I 
 believe our secretaries can find in the 
 resolutions offered by the operators 
 and the miners several clauses on 
 which we do not disagree. Evidently 
 we can pass the ones that are the same 
 on both sides without requiring the 
 full committee to be present. This 
 will give us somiethlng to do while we 
 are waiting for the reports of special 
 committees. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If the committee is 
 satisfied, the chair has no objection. 
 The scale will have to be adopted as 
 a whole in any case. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I have no wish to 
 push it if there are any objections. 
 
 J. F. MORRIS:— As Mr. Taylor says, 
 there are some clauses there that are 
 alike in both scales. If that is so, I 
 cannot see that we can make much 
 headway by just making motions to 
 adopt them. I think we should take 
 up the mining scale and finish it before 
 we take up any of the resolutions. If 
 the mining scale is not adopted, we 
 will not need the resolutions. I am 
 in favor of again taking up the scale, 
 going through it, and finishing that be- 
 fore we take up any of the resolutions. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I simply thought to 
 expedite matters by going through the 
 resolutions, and passing those on which 
 we agree. That would save the time 
 of the committee when we are all pres- 
 ent at later sessions. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- 1 understood Mr. 
 Taylor to say in opening our oomven- 
 tion that the Illinois coal operators 
 would have been satisfied to have re- 
 affirmed the agreement of -last year. 
 The miners are not satisfied to do that. 
 We might use the resolutions of last 
 year as a basis for discussion this 
 morning. That would be more satis- 
 factory than, either of the scales that 
 have been presented here. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There have been ob- 
 jections to taking up any resolutions 
 until the whole committee can be pres- 
 ent. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Is there any ob- 
 jection to the Clarke City mining rate 
 that has been mentioned? I under- 
 stand the delegate is here now. I 
 would like to get his opinion on the 
 subject. 
 
 (After a short conference with the 
 delegate, Mr. Taylor said that they 
 would let the matter of a scale for 
 Clarke Citv rest for a time.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— There is one thing the 
 convention might settle now, and that 
 Is the question of adjournment. There 
 seems to be a disposition to adjourn 
 until Monday. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that when we 
 adjourn, we adjourn to reassemble at 
 10 o'clock Monday morning. (Seconded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The committee from 
 Assumption is ready to report. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that the scale 
 for Assumirtlon be 65% cents per ton, 
 long wall, under present regulations. 
 I desire to explain that that means 
 where there is low coal or other de- 
 ficient work, in all cases the miners' 
 wages shall be made up to $2.25 per 
 day. 
 
 jr. B. WILSON:— I rise to second the 
 motion, with this understanding that 
 we have a right to take up the ques- 
 tion the same as we did a year ago for 
 local settlement In the sub-district. 
 
 MR. OSSOIjO:— When they make it 
 up to $2.25, it should be understood 
 that that is without any expense to the 
 miner. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is not the under- 
 standing. Answering Mr. Wilson, I 
 will say we would like to know whether 
 it means taking up this very provis- 
 ion? We consider this is settled here. 
 If you mean taking up the ordinary 
 questions that you usually take up at 
 home, that is not forbidden. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— What I mean is that 
 when the contract expires on the 1st 
 of April, we reserve the right to again 
 take this clause up and adopt it for 
 the year following. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is satisfactory, 
 providing, it does not conflict with the 
 promise just made here. 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 3. 
 
 66 
 
 MR. WILSON:— The company has 
 wilfully abused that clause. They 
 have evaded It in various ways. When 
 that clause -was made, it did not cairy 
 with it the expenses necessary In that 
 place, because where the deficient work 
 exists the expense is greater than in 
 any other vein. Heretofore the com- 
 pany has paid $2.25 a day lor that class 
 lof work, or made the men up to that. 
 We wish that toi carry with it the un- 
 derstanding that it does not embrace 
 the expenses. We want that $2.25 to 
 mean just what that agreement says. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is the question we 
 are proposing to settle here, and not 
 refer it for local settlement. It is per- 
 fectly satisfactory to us to have em- 
 bodied in the local settlement the pro- 
 vision made here. I have tried to be 
 as explicit as possible, and avoid the 
 ambiguity in the present contract. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— We are willing to 
 vote for that proposition. That propo- 
 sition either means what it says or it 
 doesn't. 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the scale 
 for Assumption, the operators voted 
 Tes, the miners voted Tes, and It was 
 declared adopted.) 
 
 Under Mr. Bent's motion the com- 
 mittee was then adjourned until 10:00 
 o'clock Monday morning. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 3, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called to order at 
 lO'clock a. m.. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The Ninth is 
 ready to report. 
 
 MR. HEFTI.- The operators and 
 miners of the Ninth district met, and 
 ss a result of th"" meeting have agreed 
 to the wording of last year's agree- 
 ment. AVe are I'eady to adopt the scale 
 of last year. 
 
 MR. CUTTS.— Mr. Hefti's statement 
 is correct; that is the agreement. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the scale of la.^-t yeai' for the Ninth 
 district. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. HEPTT:— The Fifth district 
 scale is not yet agreed ta I move that 
 the Fifth district. Glen Carbon, Belle- 
 ville and associsted mines, tO' and in- 
 cluding Pinckneyville, WUlisville and 
 Nashville, be 49 cents. Coal five feet 
 and under, 54 cents. There is a provis- 
 ion made by Hhe miners to make 
 Germantown 54 cents. We simply strike 
 cut Germantown, and accept the old 
 scale which reads, "coal five feet and 
 under, 54 cents." (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — Understanding that an 
 agreement has been reached in com- 
 mittee, I move you that the scale for 
 Moweaqua, room and pillar, be 53 cents. 
 (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move the 
 adoption of the scale for that part of 
 the Fourth district which reads, "mines 
 on the C. & A. south of Springfield, to 
 and including Carlinville; including 
 
 Taylorville, Pana, Litchfield, HlUsboro, 
 Witt (Paisley), Divernon and Pawnee, 
 49 cents." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— I move to 
 amend by adding, "coal five feet aind 
 under, 54 cents; shall also apply to the 
 C. & A. sub-district." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I would like 
 to ask the miners' delegates whether 
 they understand that in the measure- 
 ment of a mine' — that is, the vein of 
 coal in the mine — if it averages, 
 throughout the mine a measurement 
 higher than five feet it will take the 
 4!> cents; but if the average is under 
 five feet, then it will take the 54 cents? 
 Is that as you understand It? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— It is. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — In other 
 words, if two-thirds of the mine is 
 shown to be six feet, and one-third of 
 the mine is five feet, it will make the 
 average more than five feet, and it 
 will take the 49 cents? Will it take the 
 49 cents throughout the entire mine? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Our under- 
 standing is that the places that are 
 v.'orking five feet and under shall be 
 54 cents. 
 
 'MR. MOORSHEAD:— We have gone 
 all through that In the Fifth atid Ninth 
 districts, and we don't understand it 
 that way. In fact, we understand the 
 contrary of that — that we take the av- 
 erage of the mine, and if the average 
 of the mine is higher than five feet, 
 then the whole mine takes the 49-cent 
 rate. If the average of the mine is 
 less than five feet, then it takes the 
 54-cent rate. It would be a very troub- 
 lesome thing, if not an impossible 
 thing, to arrange two scales of wages 
 for the one mine where the vein varies. 
 A room and an entry might run a little 
 below five feet,, or a little above, and 
 this might change from week to week, 
 or from day to day. Tou must have a 
 rate for the average of the mine 
 throughout; otherwise, you would be 
 in endless trouble. Tou would be call- 
 ing on your state officers to settle dis- 
 putes every few days. I think the 
 principle that the Fifth and Ninth 
 districts is working under, insofar 
 as the five-foot seam of coal is con- 
 cerned, should, if it is considered fair 
 to those two districts, be fair to the 
 Chicago & Alton sub-district. 
 
 MR. CRABB:— Mr. Moorshead and 
 Mr. Delehanty are agreed that coal 
 over five feet and under six should 
 have a price of 49 cents. Mr. Dele- 
 hanty contends that all the places 
 under five feet should have a higher 
 rate than 49 cents. Why not all the 
 places over six feet take a less rate 
 than 49 cents? If you want to take 
 the Fourth district and put on the 
 scale it is entitled to, there are mines 
 in that district — and plenty of them — 
 that are entitled to a rate considerably 
 less than 49 cents. If they want to 
 make the rate on the competitive basis 
 or the earning capacity of the men. 
 
Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 the Fourth Is ready to take it up and 
 make a new scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The argument I am 
 making, I am making for the operators 
 of the state of Illinois. When the 
 operators came into convention with 
 you in Peoria they announced that they 
 knew of no reason and saw no means 
 by which they could permit any added 
 cost to the production of their coal in 
 the mining price or the conditions of 
 mining. We have, however, listened to 
 your arguments for a week. We have 
 listened to them for new material, hop- 
 ing that we would hear something of- 
 fered in the way of argument which 
 had been omitted in former years when 
 this scale was made. We have heard 
 nothing, except that it has been ad- 
 mitted by your officials and claimed 
 time after time upon this floor that this 
 is a competitive scale that it is not 
 based alone upon the earning power 
 of a man; and that such a scale shoiild 
 be formed as would give each district 
 its fair and correct distribution of the 
 tonnage produced. The scale offered 
 by the miners is one of the shrewdest 
 scales you have ever presented to your 
 operators. Tou have sought to put in 
 innocent-appearing language something 
 which means the entire disruption of 
 the competitive relations within the 
 state. Our present competitive stand- 
 ing would be destroyed by it. We now 
 desire to say distinctly and Anally that 
 the operators are the best judges of 
 competitive relations, inasmuch as they 
 have means of knowing the competition 
 which they are subject to — which you 
 gentlemen do not have means of 
 knowing. Tou are probably the best 
 judges of the earning powers of a man; 
 but there is not one operator from Il- 
 linois who is dissatisfied or who com- 
 plains of the relative place and the 
 scale of his fellow operators. We all 
 admit that there never will be a time 
 when we will make a perfect scale; 
 but we do say that we have reached 
 as near a competitive scale as we will 
 ever reach in this state. We do not 
 admit that we have a right at present 
 fo change these competitive relations 
 until somethini< new enters into this 
 matter, and we will not change; the 
 mining price or any of the conditions 
 in this state which will add to the cost 
 if our coal; nor will we destroy the 
 competitive relations between the dif- 
 ferent districts of the state: nor will 
 v^e do anything that will put us out of 
 line with the competition from the east. 
 I am authorized to say that we will 
 not make any changes of that kind. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- I would like to say if 
 that is the final statement of the oper- 
 ators, that they positively will not ad- 
 mit of any alteration that will add one 
 penny to the cost of the coal in any 
 district in this state, I think it is time 
 we should draw this convention to a 
 close. I don't believe in staying here 
 and wasting valuable time and money 
 if there is nothing but hot air to be 
 
 expended. I admit they are right when 
 they say they will not admit of any- 
 thing that win throw them out of line 
 with other states; but to say that they 
 will not admit of any change in any 
 district — well, I think it is time to draw 
 this to a close. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Are there any further 
 remarks on the amendment or on the 
 motion before the committee? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I wish to be 
 understood, in the questions I put to 
 Mr. Delehanty, as only seeking infor- 
 mation. I was not authorized by the 
 Fourth district to commit them in any 
 sense; I was simply asking for my own 
 information, and endeavoring to find 
 t.ut what the views of the miners' del- 
 gates from the Fourth district are. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I have been author- 
 ized by the delegates from the Fourth 
 district to say tliis much — that neither 
 they nor ourselves will agree under 
 e.ny circumstances to make a scale that 
 i.>^i going to fasten a rate upon a room 
 two feet high the same as upon a 
 room six or seven feet high. The ques- 
 tion that was asked a moment ago was 
 asked very n'cely. Mr. Mooreshead 
 certainly has had his studying cap od 
 since Saturday. Supposing we had 
 twenty rooms six feet high and one 
 room two feet high. Do you mean to 
 say that that two-foot room should be 
 worked for 49 cents? The average 
 there would be over five feet. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —Mr. Chair- 
 man, that is a ridiculous speech. We 
 meet those conditions in the No. 6 
 seam in our mines at Glen Carbon, and 
 whenever we get those conditions, they 
 are figured on between the mine man- 
 ager and the men and are adjusted sat- 
 isfactorily. We have been do-ing that 
 for years. We don't take advantage 
 of any one set of miners who are un- 
 fortunate enough to meet such con- 
 ditions under ground. They rarely oc- 
 cur, however, except in the case of 
 rolls. Where a mine averages on the 
 west side — which is perhaps the case 
 in the C. & A. — the coal gets thinner 
 on the west and may go down to four 
 and one-half, or even four feet, we 
 take the average of the mine. At 
 least that is the way it is done in 
 districts Five and Nine. 
 
 MR. SEATON: — Mr. Moorshead's 
 explanation of that is all right. We 
 adjust our matters, too. The way we 
 do it is to have our sub-district pres- 
 ident live at our place. In many cases 
 we have had to take matters to the 
 state officials. We don't want to have 
 to do this next year. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Mr. Perry did not 
 quite understand the question that was 
 asked by Mr. Mooreshead. It Is true 
 that the Fifth and Ninth district scale 
 reads that coal five feet and under 
 shall be paid for at the rate of 54 cents 
 a ton— 5 cents above the regular scale. 
 You must also understand that we have 
 two seams in that district, the No 6 
 seam and the No. 7 seam. The Nou 6 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 3. 
 
 67 
 
 varies in thickness all the way from 
 ■five feet to six, seven and eight feet. 
 The No. 7 seam varies in thickness 
 from four and one-half feet to nearly 
 six feet. But the six-foot seam is not 
 found in Trenton or Troy. It is found 
 at Lebanon and O'Fallon. We usually, 
 in measuring the coal, strike the av- 
 erage, and if the average of the No. 7 
 seam Is five feet or under, the 54-cent 
 rate applies; but If the average shows 
 that the vein is over five feet, the 49- 
 ■cent rate will apply. But in the thick 
 seam, where we find coal that will go 
 as low as four feet, it has been con- 
 ceded by many operators where that 
 condition exists that it is deficient work 
 and the miners are compensated for 
 their labor. 
 
 MR. HILLIER: — Saturday a commit- 
 tee was formed to consider matters in 
 tho C. & A. sub-district. "We told Mr. 
 Lukenis we were ready to meet him. 
 He said Mr. Crabb had to go home 
 and could not get back before today. 
 TVe told him we would be here ready 
 to meet him this morning. We have 
 not had a meeting yet. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— With the ap- 
 proval of my second I will withdraw 
 my motion and allow the committee to 
 "work. 
 
 MR.DELEHANTT:— I will also with- 
 draw my amendment.. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I move that we pro- 
 ceed to a discussion of the resolutions 
 in our present contract. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:—! took the sugges- 
 tion the other day from Mr. Mitchell, 
 that both our scales are based upon 
 the present contract. I think we will 
 make better progress by taking it up. 
 Of course that does not deprive your 
 side from offering any resolution you 
 ■desire, and our side can do the same. 
 
 MR. M'CALL:— I don't think it is 
 necessary to take up the resolutions 
 at all. From the plain talk of the op- 
 •erators it appears that we have to do 
 jusc what they want us to. They are 
 the nicest lot of men I ever knew. 
 They are like my friend Dooley says, 
 "If you meet them half way you wUl 
 get alomg aJl right if you give them 
 everything they want." 
 
 MR. BENT: — Is there a single point 
 in Illinois where if we asked a reduc- 
 tion we would not get an ultimatum 
 from the miners in less time than a 
 week? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not in favor 
 of adjourning our scale committee at 
 this time and going back to the con- 
 vention. The Illinois Coal Operators' 
 Association has said they would not 
 change the price of mining or change 
 conditions that will add to the cost of 
 their coal. I think we should now 
 learn what the operators mean to do 
 about the resolutions. Then we can 
 report back to the comvention all along 
 the line. (The motion to take up the 
 resolutions in the present agreement 
 -was voted on and adopted.) 
 For convenient reference the reso- 
 
 lutions of the current state agreement 
 for the year ending April 1, 1902, are 
 reprinted as follows: 
 PRESENT STATE AGREEMENT 
 ENDING 1902. 
 1st. The Columbus convention hav- 
 ing adopted the mining and under- 
 ground day labor scale in effect April 
 1, 1900, as the scale for the year be- 
 ginning April 1, 1901, no changes or 
 conditions shall be Imposed in the Illi- 
 nois scale for the coming year that 
 increase the cost of production of 
 coal in any district in the state, ex- 
 cept as may be provided. 
 
 2d. No scale of wages sfiall be 
 made by the United Mine Workers 
 for mine manager, mine manager's 
 assistant, top foreman, company 
 weighman, boss drivers, night boss, 
 head machinist, head boiler maker, 
 head carpenter, night watchmen, 
 hoisting engineers. It being under- 
 stood that "assistant" shall apply to 
 such as are atithorized to act in that 
 capacity only. The authority to hire 
 and discharge should be vested in the 
 mine manager, top foreman and boss 
 driver. It is further understood and 
 agreed that the night watchman shall 
 be exempt when employed in that 
 capacity only. 
 
 3d. Any operator paying the scale 
 rate for mining and day labor under 
 this agreement shall at all times be 
 at liberty to load any railroad cars 
 whatever, regardless of their owner- 
 ship, with coal, and sell and deliver 
 such coal in any market and to any 
 person, firm or corporation that he 
 may desire. 
 
 4th. The scale of prices for mining 
 per ton of 2,000 pounds run-ofrmine 
 coal herein provided for, is understood 
 in every case to be for coal free from 
 slate, bone and other impurities, 
 loaded in cars at the face, weighed 
 before screening; and that the practice 
 of pushing coal by the miners shall 
 be prohibited. 
 
 5th. (a) Whether the coal is shot 
 after being undercut or sheared by 
 pick or machine, or shot without un- 
 dercutting or shearing, the miners 
 must drill and blast the coal in ac- 
 cordance with the state mining law 
 of Illinois, in order to protect the roof 
 and timbers in the interest of geileral 
 safety. If it can be shown that any 
 miner persistently violates the letter 
 or spirit of this clause, he shall be 
 discharged. 
 
 (b) The system of paying for coal 
 before screening was Intended to ob- 
 viate the many contentions incident 
 to the use of screens, and was not in- 
 tended to encourage unworkmanlike 
 methods of mining and blasting coal, 
 or to decrease the proportion of 
 screened lump, and the operators are 
 hereby guaranteed the hearty support 
 and co-operation of the United Mine 
 Workers of America, in disciplining 
 any miner who from ignorance or care- 
 
68 
 
 Morning Session, March 3.' 
 
 lesj^ness or other cause fails to prop- 
 erly mine, shoot and load his coal. 
 
 6th. In case slate, bone, sulphur or 
 other impurities are. sent up by the 
 miner it shall be the duty of the trim- 
 mer of the car to call the attentlan 
 of the weighman and checkweigh- 
 man to the same, and the 
 miner so offending shall for the first 
 offense be suspended for one day or 
 fined one dollar; for the second offense 
 he shall be suspended for three work- 
 ing days or fined two dollars; for the- 
 third and each subsequent offense oc- 
 curring in any one month he shall be 
 suspended, discharged or fined four 
 dollars; provided, that in malicious or 
 aggravated cases, the operator shall 
 have the right to suspend or discharge 
 for the first or any subsequent offense. 
 Any miner abusing or seeking to em- 
 barrass the trimmer for performing 
 his duty shall be fined three dollars or 
 discharged. The proceeds of all fines 
 to be paid into the check weighman's 
 fund. Under no circumstances shall 
 fines be remitted or refunded. 
 
 7th. The miners of the state of 111- 
 nois are to be paid twice a month, the 
 dates of pay to be determined locally, 
 but in no event shall more than one- 
 half month's pay be retained by the 
 operator. When the men locally so 
 demand, statements will be issued to 
 all employes not less than twenty- 
 four hours prior to pay day. No com- 
 missions will be charged for money 
 advanced between pay days, but any 
 advances between pay days, shall be 
 at the option of the operator. 
 
 8th. The price for powder per keg 
 shall be $1.75 — the miners agree to pur- 
 chase their powder from heir opera- 
 tors, provided it is furnished of stand- 
 ard grade and quality; that to be de- 
 termined by the operators and expert 
 miners jointly where there is a differ- 
 ence. 
 
 9th. The price for blacksmithing 
 for pick mining shall be six-tenths of 
 a cent per ton for room and pillar 
 work and twelve and one-half cents 
 per pay per man, or twenty-five cents 
 per month for long wall for pick and 
 drill sharpening. 
 
 10th. It is understood that there is 
 no agreement as to the' price of oil. 
 
 11th. The inside day wage scale 
 authorized by the present agreements, 
 i, e., the Columbus scale of 1898, plus 
 an advance of twenty per cent., shall 
 be the scale under this agreement; but 
 in no case shall less than $2.10 be paid 
 for drivers. 
 
 12th. The above scale of mining 
 prices is based upon an eight-hour 
 work day, and it is definitely under- 
 stood that this shall mean eight hours 
 work at the face, exclusive of noon 
 time, six days a week, or forty-eight 
 hours in the week, provided the mine 
 desires to work, and no local ruling 
 shall in any way affect this agree- 
 ment or impose conditions affecting the 
 same. 
 
 Any class of day labor may be paid 
 at the option of the operator for the 
 number of hours and fractions there- 
 of actually wprked, at an hour rata 
 based on one-eighth of the scale rate 
 per day. Provided, however, that 
 when the men go into the mine In the 
 morning they shall be entitled to two 
 hours' pay whether the mine hoists 
 coal two hours or not, except in the 
 event that they voluntarily^ leave their 
 work during this time without the con- 
 cent of the operator they shall forfeit 
 such two hours' pay. Provided, fur- 
 ther, that overtime by day laborers 
 when necessary to sv"^ply railroad 
 chutes with coal by night or Sunday, 
 where no regular men therefor are ex- 
 clusively employed, or when necessary 
 in order not to impede the operation of 
 the mine the aay following, and for 
 work which cannot be performed or 
 completed by the regular shift during 
 regular hours without impeding the 
 operation of the mine, may be per- 
 formed and paid for at the same rate 
 per hour. 
 
 13th. (a) The duties of the pit 
 committee shall be confined to the ad- 
 justment of disputes between the pit 
 boss and any of the members of the 
 United Mine Workers of America 
 working in and around \he mine, for 
 whom a scale is made, arising out of 
 this agreement or any sub-district 
 agreement made in connection here- 
 with, where the pit boss an3~said miner 
 or mine laborer have failed to agree. 
 
 (b) In case of any local trouble 
 arising at any shaft through such fail- 
 ure to agree between the pit boss and 
 any miner or mine laborer, the pit 
 committee, and the miners' local presi- 
 dent and the pit boss are empow^ered 
 to adjust it; and in the case of their 
 disagreement it shall be referred to the 
 superintendent of the company and 
 the president of the miners' local exec- 
 utive board, where such exists, and 
 shall they fail to adjust it — and in all 
 other cases — it shall be referred to the 
 superintendent of the company and 
 the miners' president of the sub-dis- 
 trict; and should they fail to adjust it, 
 it shall be referred in writing to the 
 officials of the company concerned and 
 the state officials of the U. M. W. of 
 A. for adjustment; and in all such 
 cases the miners and mine laborers 
 and parties involved must continue ,at 
 work pending an investigation and ad- 
 justment until a final decision is reach- 
 ed in the manner above set forth. 
 
 (c) If any day men refuse to con- 
 tinue at work because of a grievajice 
 which has or has not been taken up 
 for adjustment in the manner provided 
 herein, and such action shall seem 
 likely to impede the operation of the 
 mine, the pit committee shall immedi- 
 ately furnish a man or men to take 
 such vacant place or places at the 
 scale rate, in order that the mine may 
 continue at work; and it shall be the 
 
MoRNiN-G Session, March 3. 
 
 Juty of any member or members of the 
 United Mine Workers who may be 
 called upon by the pit boss or pit ■^com- 
 mittee' to immediately take the place 
 or places assigned to him or them in 
 pursuance hereof. 
 
 (d) The pit committee in the dis- 
 charge of its duties shall under no cir- 
 cumstance go around the mine for any 
 cause whatevfer unless called upon by 
 the pit boss or by a. miner oi; company 
 man who may have a grievance that 
 he cannot settle with the boss; and as 
 its duties are confined to the adjust- 
 ment of any such grievances, it is un- 
 derstood that its members shall not 
 draw any compensation except while 
 actively engaged in the discharge of 
 said duties. The foregoing shall not 
 *e construed to prohibit the pit com- 
 mittee from looking after the matter of 
 membership dues and initiations in any 
 proper manner. 
 
 (e) Members of the pit_ committee 
 employed as day men shall not leave 
 their places of duty during working 
 hours, except by permission of the op- 
 erator, or in cases involving the stop- 
 page of the mine. 
 
 (f) The operator or his superintend- 
 ent or mine manager shall be respect- 
 ed in the management of the mine and 
 the direction of the working force. 
 The right to hire must include also the 
 right to discharge, and it is not the 
 purpose of this agreement to abridge 
 the rights of the employer in either of 
 these respects. If, however, any em- 
 ploye shall be suspended or discharged 
 hy the company and it is claimed that 
 an injustice has been done him, an in- 
 vestigation to be conducted by the 
 parties and in the manner set forth in 
 paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section 
 shall be taken up at once, and if it is 
 determined, that an injustice has been 
 done, the operator agrees to^ reinstate 
 said employe and pay him full com- 
 pensation for the time he has been 
 suspended and out of employment; 
 provided, if no decision shall be ren- 
 dered within five days the case shair 
 be considered closed insofar as com- 
 pensation Is concerned. 
 
 14. The wages now being paid 
 outside day labor at the various mines 
 in this state shall constitute the wage 
 scale for that class of labor during the 
 life of this agreement; provided, that 
 no top man shall receive less * than 
 $1.80 per day. 
 
 15th. In the event of an instanta- 
 neous death by accident in the mine, 
 the miners and underground em- 
 ployes shall have the privilege of dis- 
 continuing work for the remainder of 
 that day, but work, at the option of 
 the operator shall be resumed the 
 day following, and continue there- 
 after. In case the operator elects to 
 operate the mine 'on the day of the 
 funeral of the deceased, individual 
 miners and underground employes 
 may at their option absent them- 
 selves from work for the purpose of 
 
 attending such funeral, but not other- 
 wise. And in the event that the oper- 
 ator shall elect to operate the mine on 
 the day of such funeral, then from 
 the proceeds of such day's operation 
 each member of the U. M. W. of A. 
 employed at the mine at which the 
 deceased member was eniployed shall 
 contribute fifty cents and the opera- 
 tor $25.00 for the benefit of the family 
 of the decsased or his legal representa- 
 tives, to be collected through the office 
 ■ of the company. Except in case of 
 fatal accidents, as above, the mine 
 shall in no case be thrown idle be- 
 cause of any death or funeral; but in 
 the case of the death of any employe 
 of /the company or member of his 
 family, any individual miner may, at 
 his option, absent himself from work 
 for the sake of attending such funeral, 
 but not otherwise. , 
 
 16th. (a) The scale of prices herein 
 provided shall include, except in ex- 
 traordinary conditions, the work re- 
 quired to load coal and properly tim- 
 ber the working places in the mine, 
 and the operator shall be required to 
 furnish the necessary props and tim- 
 ber in rooms or working face. And 
 in long wall mines it shall include the 
 proper mining of the coal and the 
 brushing and care of the working 
 places and roadway according to the 
 present method and rules relating 
 thereto, which shall continue un- 
 changed. 
 
 (b) If any miner shall fail toi prop- 
 erly timber and care for his workinsr 
 place, and such failure shall entail 
 falls of slate, rock and the like, or if 
 by reckless or improper shooting of 
 the coal in room and pillar mines, the 
 mine props or other timbers shall be 
 disturbed or unnecessary falls result) 
 the miner whose fault has occasioned 
 such damage shall repair the same 
 without compensation; and if"_such 
 miner fails to repair such damage he 
 shall be discharged. 
 
 In cases where the mine manager 
 directs the placing of cross-bars to 
 permanently secure the roadway, then, 
 and in such cases only, the miner shall 
 be paid at the current price for ^ach 
 cross-bar when properly set. 
 
 The above does not contemplate any 
 change from the ordinary method of 
 timbering by the miner for his own 
 safety. 
 
 17th. The operators will recognize 
 the pit committee in the discharge of 
 its duties as herein specified, but not 
 otherwise, and agree to check off union 
 dues and assessments from the miners 
 and mine laborers, when desired, on 
 the individual or collective continuous 
 order prepared by the attorneys repre- 
 senting both the miners and operators, 
 as at present existing, and when sucl^ 
 union dues and assessments are collect- 
 ed through the oflice, card days shall 
 be abolished. 
 
 18th. The operators shall have the 
 
70 
 
 Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 right in cases of emergency work, or 
 ordinary repairs to tlie plant, to em- 
 ploy in connection therewith such 
 men as in their judgment are best ac- 
 quainted with and suited to the work 
 to be performed, except where men are 
 permanently employed for such work. 
 Blacksmiths and other skilled labor 
 shall make any necessary repairs to 
 machinery and boilers. 
 
 19th. The erection of head frames, 
 buildings, scales, machinery, railroad 
 switches, etc., necessary for the com- 
 pletion of a plant to hoist coal, all be- 
 ing in the nature of construction work, 
 are to be excluded from the jurisdic- 
 tion of the United Mine Workers of 
 America. Extensive repairs to or re- 
 building the same class of work shall 
 also be included in the same excep- 
 tion. 
 
 20th. Where any employe absents 
 himself from his work for a period of 
 two days, unless through sickness or 
 by first having notified the mine man- 
 ager and obtained his consent, he shall 
 be discharged. 
 
 21st. (a) Except at the basing 
 point, Danville, the differential for ma- 
 chine mining throughout the state of 
 Illinois shall be seven cents per ton 
 less than the pick mining rate. It 
 being understood and agreed that the 
 machine mining rate shall include the 
 snubbing of coal either by powder or 
 wedge and sledge as conditions may 
 warrant, where chain machine is used; 
 but it is understood that this condi- 
 tion shall not apply where two men 
 have and work in one place only in 
 the same shift, except at the option of 
 the miner; and it shall also be optional 
 with the miner which system of snub- 
 bing shall be followed. The division 
 of the machine mining price shall be 
 fixed by sub-districts. 
 
 (b) The established rates on shear- 
 ing machines and air or electric drills 
 as now existing, shall remain un- 
 changed during the ensuing yeir. 
 
 22d. Any underground employe not 
 on hand so as to go down to his work 
 before the hour for commencing work 
 shall not be entitled to so below ex- 
 cept at the convenience of the com- 
 pany. When an employe is sick or in- 
 jured, he shall be given a cage at once, 
 When a cage load of men comes to the 
 bottom of the shaft, who have been 
 prevented, from working by reason of 
 falls or other things over which they 
 have no control, they shall be given 
 a cage at once. For the accommoda- 
 tion of individual employes, less than a 
 cage load, who have been prevented 
 from working as above, a cage shall 
 be run mid-forenoon and mid-after- 
 noon of each working day; provided, 
 however, that the foregoing shall not 
 be permitted to enable men to leave 
 their work for other than the reasons 
 stated above. 
 
 23d. This contract is in no case to 
 be set aside because of any rules of 
 the U. M. W. of A. now in force or 
 
 which may hereafter be, adopted ; nor 
 is this contract to be set aside by rea- 
 son of any provision in their national, 
 state or local constitutions. 
 
 24th. All classes of day labor are 
 to work full eight hours, and the 
 going to and coming from the respec- 
 tive working places is to be done on the 
 day hand's own time. All company 
 men shall perform whatever day labor 
 the foreman may direct. An eight- 
 hour day means eight hours' work In 
 the mines at the usual working 
 places, exclusive of noon time, for all 
 classes- of Tnside day labor. This 
 shall be exclusive of the time required 
 in reaching such working places_ in 
 the morning and departing from same 
 at night. 
 
 Drivers shall take their mules to and 
 from the stables, and the time re- 
 quired in so doing, shall not include 
 any part of the day's labor; their 
 time beginning when they reach the 
 change at which they receive empty 
 cars— that is, the parting-drivers at 
 the shaft bottom, and the inside 
 drivers at the parting, — and ending at 
 the same places; but in no case shall 
 a driver's time be docked while he is 
 waiting for such cars at the points 
 named. The inside drivers, at their 
 option, may either walk to and from 
 the parting or take with them with- 
 out compensation, either loaded or 
 empty cars, to enable them to ride. 
 This provision, ho^veyer, shall not 
 prevent the inside drivers from bring- 
 ing to and taking from the bottom 
 regular trips, if so directed by the 
 operator, provided such work is done 
 within the eight hours. 
 
 The methods at present existing 
 covering the harnessing, unharnessing, 
 feeding and caring for the mules 
 shall be continued throughout the 
 scale year beginning April 1, 1901; but 
 in cases where any grievances exist 
 in respect to same they shall be re- 
 ferred to the sub-district meetings for 
 adjustment. 
 
 When the ^stables at which the mules 
 are kept are located on the surface 
 and the mules are taken in and out 
 of the mines daily by the drivers, the 
 question of additional compensation 
 therefor, if any, is to be left to the 
 sub-districts affected for adjustment, 
 at their joint sub-district meetings. 
 
 25th. Mission Field scale is referred 
 to Danville sub-district for adjust- 
 ment. 
 
 26th. The companies shall keep the 
 mines in as dry a condition as prac- 
 ticable by keeping the water off the 
 roads and out of the working places. 
 
 27th. All operators shall keep suf- 
 ficient blankets, oil, bandages, etc., and 
 provide suitable ambulance or convey- 
 ances at all mines to properly convey 
 injured persons to thelf Tibmes after 
 an accident. 
 
 28th. The operators shall see that 
 an equal turn is offered each miner, 
 and that he be griven a fair chance to 
 
Morning Skssion, March 3. 
 
 71 
 
 obtain tbe same. The Gheckwelghman 
 shall keep a turn bulletin for the turn 
 keeper's guidance.'' The^flrivers shall 
 be subject to whomever the mine mah- 
 ager shall designate as turn keeper, in 
 pursuance hereof. 
 
 29th. There shall be no demands 
 made locally that are not specifically 
 set forth in tTiis agreement, except as 
 agreed to In joint sub-district meet- 
 ings held prior to May 1, 1901. Where 
 no sub-districts exist local grievances 
 shall be referred to the United Mine 
 Workers' state executive board and the 
 mine owners Interested. 
 (Mr. Russell in the chair.) 
 MR. BENT: — I observe that the pre- 
 amble to the resolutions! in the miners' 
 scale and ours are practically the same. 
 I move the adoption of the preamble 
 of the operators' scale. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — There appears to 
 be some diffiepence of opinion as toi 
 what the words "hand mined" and 
 "pick mined" mean. I take it to mean 
 that it Is not machine mining. I take 
 it the words "pick mined" do not carry 
 any other significance with them. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is our under- 
 standing of it. The scale of the past 
 year used the word "pick". 
 
 COL. SWEET— Make it powder min- 
 ing. (The operators and miners both 
 voted Aye, and the preamble was de- 
 clared adopted.) 
 
 MR. GREEN: — I move that the first 
 resolution of the miners' scale be 
 adopted. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— My understanding 
 is, Mr. Green, that it has been agreed 
 to take up the resolutions in last year's 
 agreement. It has also been agreed 
 that resolutions from either of the pro- 
 posed scales may be offered. 
 
 The first section of the present agree- 
 ment was read by the secretary. 
 
 MR- BBATTIE: — That is where all 
 the arguments have been based, and 
 Mr. Taylor has got up and outlined 
 this very policy in this resolution. He 
 says no change shall be made in con- 
 ditions. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that that 
 resolution be laid on the table. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Simply to facilitate 
 business, and in nowise receding from 
 ■our position, I second the motion. (It 
 was voted on and adopted.) 
 (Mr. Ryan In the chair.) 
 (The second resolution of the present 
 agreement was read.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 for the section just read the second res- 
 olutloin in the operators' scale, which 
 is substantially the same, except that 
 it adds to those exempt "mine exam- 
 iner, surface prop man, electrician, coaJ 
 inspector, teamsters and stablemen." 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 move that the sub- 
 stitute be laid on the table. (Seconded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to strike 
 out of the resolution under considera- 
 
 tion the words "hoisting engineers." 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move a reconsidera- 
 tion of the last vote. I voted Aye to 
 table my own resolution under instruc- 
 tions from the rear-, and it seems they 
 misunderstood what the motion was. 
 They thought it was the original reso- 
 lution instead of my substitute. 
 
 (On the motion to reconsider, the 
 operators voted Aye, the miners voted 
 Aye, and it was carried.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators In adding 
 these few names, to those they believe 
 should be exempt from the scale made 
 here, do so because these come in the 
 same category with those already 
 exempt, in that either their duties are 
 executive in their character, or else 
 their duties are of a character that are 
 not identified with the production of 
 coal in ordinary labor around the 
 mines. We add the mine examiner, 
 believing that his work classifies with 
 the work of the mine manager and 
 his assistant, and that he ought to be 
 strictly a company man. 
 
 MR, RYAN:— Is he not identified with 
 the production of coal? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, and so am I; but 
 not in the manner which this contract 
 provides. We also scSlA electrician and 
 coal inspector, believing that a man 
 that is employed by the company to 
 inspect the coal and to see that the 
 co§l is kept of the proper quality 
 should be a company man, and not sub- 
 ject to' attack by the miners in their 
 meetings or anywhere else. He should 
 be absolutely independent. We believe 
 that the surface prop man ought to be 
 exempt, because his primary duties are 
 counting props that are received, and 
 inspecting their quality. While he 
 may perform some incidental work in 
 connection with that, that Is his main 
 duty, and that duty cannot be per- 
 formed In eight hours at mines where 
 props are brought in by wagon by 
 farmers, instead of being brought in 
 by rail. Usually two trips a day are 
 made bv the farmers and often the 
 second trip comes after the ,mine has 
 been shut down. He should be as much 
 removed from your jurisdiction as if 
 he was an office man, because his work 
 can be done by a man from the office. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We are not in 
 favor of the motion to increase the 
 number of men who should be exempt 
 from our organization, or for whom 
 we shall not make a scale. Our ex- 
 perience has been that in every district 
 where we have exempted anyone, every 
 following year the operators have 
 asked for some other class of labor to 
 be exempted. You have more classes 
 of labor named in your last year's 
 scale than in any other place I know. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Usually in Penn- 
 sylvania and Ohio you make the scale 
 for top labor? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We do. We pro- 
 vide that their wages shall rise and 
 fall with the mining scale. 
 
72 
 
 Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do they be- 
 long to yoiur union In a body? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Not all of them, 
 I am sorry to say that all the miners 
 do not. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do the men 
 belong to your organization where the 
 few miners belong, as much as they 
 do In Illinois? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There are more 
 than a few in Pennsylvania. There are 
 ?. very great number of- them. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I mean com- 
 pared to the whole number of miners in 
 Pennsylvania? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The top men in 
 nearly all the mines that are organized 
 belong to the union. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The first We 
 want excluded Is the mine examiner. 
 "We certainly feel we have a right to 
 control him. If we should get a man 
 who Is careless or who might drink to 
 excess, so as to unfit him for his duties, 
 and he should become careless or 
 thoughtless in his work and someone 
 Ir. the mine is Injured, who would be 
 responsible and who would have the 
 bill to pay If the courts assessed a 
 damage for it or a penalty? The oper- 
 ator, absolutely. The operator Is re- 
 sponsible for the condition of the mine, 
 and in case the examiner does not do 
 his duty, and anyone, or a number of 
 people, are injured by reason of it, or 
 killed by reason of it, the operator is 
 held responsible by the courts and must 
 pay the assessed penalty, whatever it 
 is, Why should the miners' organiza- 
 tion seek to control such a man as 
 that? We have the greatest trouble at 
 all of our mines in trying to weed out 
 worthless characters; we have the 
 greatest trouble In the world in con- 
 trolling the men. While we have lots 
 of good ones at the mines, the radicals 
 are the ones who make us the trouble 
 and say who we shall employ and who 
 we shall not. I have been up against 
 that many times during the past year. 
 I have had men kept out of employ- 
 ment a mo-nth because we didn't see 
 fit to take a man whO' was physically 
 deformed and unfit to perform labor, 
 and yet because he happened to be on 
 the miners' list they were not satisfied 
 with their district president's decision, 
 but carried it to Springfield; and not 
 satisfied with the decision rendered 
 there, carried it over tO' Indianapolis 
 tc see whether or not we should be 
 compelled to hire a deaf man. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Not as a mine ex- 
 aminer. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— It applies in 
 the same way. The men who act in 
 such a ridiculous way as that would 
 also apply it to the mine examiner, and 
 you know it. We want to control the 
 men upon whom we depend for the in- 
 spection of our mines, and for whose 
 carelessness or negligence we will have 
 to pay the bills. If we are not justified 
 ill that we are losing absolute control 
 of our property. There ought not to 
 
 be any question about the mine exam- 
 iner at all, none whatever. p:e Is just 
 as much a company man as the man 
 who looks after our premises to see 
 that they don't burn down and that In- 
 truders do not come upon them. There 
 is no difference between the two. The 
 one works on top of the ground and 
 the other underneath; but the one Is 
 much more responsible to us than the 
 other. Tou never ought to contest this 
 for a minute. There is not a miner in 
 this room who. If he owned a mine and 
 was responsible for accidents that oc- 
 curred under ground, but wojild agree 
 with me. and would stand here and 
 fight for it just as hard as I am do- 
 ing. As Mr. Bent said, the surfacei 
 prop man Is an individual who looks 
 after our property, too, just as a mine 
 clerk looks after our business. His 
 work may be a little rougher. He does 
 not sit in the office, but is on the out- 
 side looking after our supplies, and like 
 the mine clerk he may quit at the end 
 ot the eight hours, and he may not quit 
 until the end of twelve hours. Some- 
 body has goit to be an emergency man 
 in and around the mine — we cannot all 
 work eight hours. We are willing that 
 there shall be a privileged majority 
 who shall work eight hours or less if 
 they want to, but somebody has got to 
 work more than eight hours, and this 
 is one man who has got to do it, like 
 the clerk, the mine manager, the su- 
 perintendents, etc. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- And the officers of 
 the union. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— And the of- 
 ficers of the union — I beg their pardon. 
 
 The next we have added to the list is 
 the electrician. The electrician is an 
 expert, a technical man, a man upon 
 whom we depend to work any hour we 
 call upon him so that you may be 
 able to work at all times. He is ex- 
 pected to work at midnight, he is ex- 
 pected to work at any and all times we 
 call upon him, so that the plant may be 
 In good condition for the hoisting of 
 coal from day to day. I know it is true 
 in the plants I am acquainted with that 
 the electrician hires and has control of 
 the machine runners and their helpers, 
 for the reason that he is the better 
 judge of whether they are able to take 
 care of their machines as they should 
 do, and to see that they do it. Tou 
 cannot have two or three men bossing 
 one class of men, and * the electrician 
 Is the proper person to take charge of 
 the machine men. He is with them all 
 the time, he knows their rr)erits and 
 their demerits. He is their boss. At 
 Divernon, under a threat of suspension, 
 they compelled our electrician to join 
 the union so that he might go Into 
 their meetings. He was as close to us 
 as our mine manager and superintend- 
 ent. I don't think it pays you to ap- 
 ply force to that class of men, and it 
 isn't right to do it. The electrician has 
 charge of a valuable property, and he 
 has charge of a class of men who are 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 3. 
 
 73 
 
 an important lot to us. He is essential- 
 ly and in every respect a superintend- 
 ent. There should not be any question 
 about the electrician; 
 
 The next is the coal inspector who is 
 none the less a company man looking 
 after our product to see that It is in 
 good condition. He is also the man who 
 keeps records to see whether our coal 
 is in good shape or not, and to counter- 
 act the statements of coal inspectors 
 from railroads, and other people who 
 come around our mines to see that the 
 coal is loaded as they have contracted 
 for it. He also has to travel, go from 
 place to place where coal is shipped, 
 and sometimes h^s to take the miners 
 lo Irok at the bad condition of. thi? 
 ccal. He is a clerk, performs the same 
 dut'cs as I do, onlv not ir. a.'-- varied a 
 way. 1 try to covw t.'if whrle ground: 
 he covers one particular part of it. 
 
 The teamster is next. If we don't have 
 our own teamsters, we have a right to 
 pay by the load to the teamsters in the 
 towns. We do that at our plants, ex- 
 cept at Edwardsville and Glen Carbon. 
 In the other two places we have it done 
 by outside parties. Simply because a 
 man drives our team and cart you say 
 they must belong to your organization: 
 while if they drive their own teams and 
 carts you don't say anything about it. 
 The teamster does nothing towards the 
 production of the coal, simply moves 
 supplies from one place to another. 
 
 Kex;t is the stableman who takes care 
 of our stock, another class of supplies. 
 Why should we be compelled to take 
 for our stableman anvome whom the 
 miners spy we shall employ? And that 
 is the. condition we have come to now. 
 They siy, "If you want a man here is 
 the list. John Jones is the first man." 
 If we object they say, "Yes, he is lame 
 and deaf, but he is next on the list; he 
 Is the man you have got to take." That 
 is what we have to contend with in the 
 thick seam of coal where the miners 
 have such hardships under the 49 cents 
 mining rate. The more they get the 
 worse they get. 
 
 There is no question at all about our 
 right to the classes of' men I have 
 spoken of. If you are going to take 
 them in, then you had better take us 
 all in. get us all. In time you will take 
 in the directors and then the stock- 
 holders — and then what next? By that 
 time you won't have anything to work 
 .at. I don't see why there should be 
 any contention about this at all. There 
 is not a state east of us where as many 
 claffes of men are recognized as be- 
 longing to the union as in the state of 
 Illinois, and Mr. Mitchell and all of you 
 know it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is in Indi- 
 ana, they even have the engineers. 
 
 MR. I MOORSHEAD: — Partially, if 
 you please. The state is divided. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is one 
 county that in not. 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— One county! 
 
 But the whole state does not compare 
 with one county in Illinoi.'i! 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I will not say 
 anything that will detract from the 
 greatness of Illinois. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: -You don't 
 need to; it is being destroyed as fast as 
 you can do it. It is being done by the 
 independent and radical action of the 
 men who refuse to recognize your con- 
 tracts on the first day of April. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— (Springfield) — It 
 seems strange that a certain class of 
 people go about this state with certifi- 
 cates in their pockets, if they are such 
 men as Mr. Moorshead has spoken of. 
 They are doing their best to confinfe 
 him to his duties, and we are doing our 
 best, and he is' escaping from both. It 
 is the strangest thing I Have ever heard 
 of. All our organization asks of that 
 man is to live up to the duties assigned 
 to him by the state law, which I be- 
 lieve was enacted for our protection 
 wliile down below. We have undoubt- 
 edly proved that we wish to confine 
 him to the duties of mine examiner. 
 The only trouble we have is to stop 
 the companies from putting him toi 
 take the place of a track layer or a tim- 
 ber man, and letting the examination 
 of the mine go. Thnt is where the con-- 
 flict bet;sveen the operators and the 
 miner's comes in in regard to the mine 
 examiner. The law defines the duties 
 of the mine examiner; but the coal 
 companies ignore the law. We have 
 had to have examinations in order to 
 compel the examiner to fulfill his 
 duties. The result of that In our dis- 
 trict was that the mines were warned 
 that thev must either be put in good 
 condition or they woul'd be closed down 
 in three days. That was after they had 
 been signed by the examiner to be In 
 good condition. If the examiner was 
 deaf he would have no_thing to do 
 but examine his mines, and he could do 
 this in eight hours. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— That brings me on 
 my feet at once. You say the organiza- 
 tion should control the mine examiner. 
 I admit here that the certificate don't 
 make the man; it never did and it 
 never will; it never made an engineer 
 or a mine examiner, but the mine ex- 
 aminer with a certificate should not be 
 dictated to by a pit committee such as 
 we have now in some of our mines. The 
 law of the state as it applies to^ the en- 
 gineers and mine inspectors is very 
 nearly as good as we can get it. It was 
 never meant, however, that a pit com- 
 mittee who have not certificates should 
 dictate to the state mine inspector, the 
 mine manager, the mine examiner or 
 the engineer. You have come across 
 this very thing often. I for one am sat- 
 isfied with the law at the present time, 
 with the exception of one or two things 
 which T think might be changed. 
 But I do say if anything should 
 happen in one of the mines 
 through my mine examiner not doing 
 
74 
 
 Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 his duty, I would certainly have to pay 
 the cost of the accident. The pit com- 
 mittee would not pay it, and the miners 
 would not pay it. I depend entirely 
 on my mine examiner to examine the 
 mines. I do not want to depend on 
 your pit conmiittee nor you to dictate 
 to my mine examiner. It is coming to 
 a point, gentlemen, where we have to 
 take something in our own hands. We 
 have lots of good miners, and we have 
 lots of poor miners. We have lots of 
 good examiners and we have lots of 
 poor examiners, but the poor examiner 
 is at the operator's cost. He wants to 
 be able to discharge him any time he 
 pleases, and, in my opinion, it Is a very 
 vital point to even leave the pit com- 
 mittee dictate to the mine examiner. 
 The state mspector is there, and he is 
 bound to do his duty. It is his duty to 
 dictate to the mine examiner, not the 
 duty of the pit committee. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Newsam's 
 statement that he is well satisfied with 
 the state mining law, with some few 
 exceptions, reminds me of something 
 that happened over in the St. Nicholas 
 hotel, in Springfield, when I was lobby- 
 ing for some mining legislation. At 
 that time the railroad companies were 
 trying to secure some favorable legis- 
 lation, and all the legislators were us- 
 ing railroad passes. Someone proposed 
 to make it an ofrenee for a legrislator 
 to use a railroad pass. One of the Chi- 
 cago legislators was talking of it there 
 one evening, and said he was in favor 
 of passing such a law, except the en- 
 acting clause — he wanted that stricken 
 out. 
 
 I don't think anything has been said 
 that gives good reasons why we should 
 exclude any of the classes mentioned 
 in the amendment, except the mine ex- 
 aminers. I should judge from what Mr. 
 Moorshead says that becau'se a person 
 has membership in our organization 
 and we make a fair scale of wages for 
 him, that we would destroy his com- 
 petency. It is true that the companies 
 would be held responsible by the courts 
 for an accident that might happen In 
 the mines; but the accident that would 
 cause the suit would be sustainad by 
 one pf our members, and our union is 
 not going to allow carelessness if it is 
 at the est of the life and safety of our 
 own members. We assist you in seeing 
 that your mine examiners are compe- 
 tent. I don't think any operator will 
 allege that we ever attempt to inter- 
 fere with the persons they hire as mine 
 examiners, except that we insist he 
 shall be a member of our organization. 
 If our union should attempt to say 
 whom you should emply — with the one 
 exception that he be a member of our 
 organization — I would be the first one 
 to protest. I believe our committee 
 should not interfere with the mine ex- 
 aminer except in this one matter that 
 he be a member of our organization. It 
 was for our protection, not yours, that 
 the law was enacted. However, you 
 
 share in the protection, inasmuch as 
 you do not have as many suits for 
 damages as formerly. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If you had jurisdiction 
 over that man and he was discharged, 
 wouldn't the local have a right to say 
 that it was unfair, and make a griev- 
 ance of it, and if so, would that not 
 bring about divided responsibility for 
 that man? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The operators 
 only ask that they be allowed to dis- 
 charge the man on account of incom- 
 petency. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Suppose we thought he 
 was incompetent and you did not think 
 so? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You can always 
 carry it up. Our pit committee would 
 give credence to what the mine in- 
 spector would say about that class of 
 men. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Why not settle it here 
 now? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— By not permit- 
 ting him to belong to our organization? 
 
 MR. BENT:— That would settle it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That would re- 
 duce the amount of protection we re- 
 ceive from his employment. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Perhaps we 
 would not object to their controlling 
 the mine examiner if they only had for 
 their pit committees and the men in 
 control of their locals sensible and 
 reasonable men — but they do not. If 
 we only could have men that were law- 
 abiding we might agree with you, but 
 we do not. I had a case at Divemon 
 something like six months ago in which 
 the ventilation of the mine was com- 
 plained of. The state examiner and 
 the county examiner both went to that 
 mine. Both protested to the men that 
 indiscriminate shooting throughout the 
 day must cease; that they must shoot 
 once a day only. The notice was not 
 only disobeyed, but turned down. They 
 not only defied the state authority, but 
 they defied my instructions and my su- 
 perintendent's instructions and also my 
 mine manager's instructions. After two 
 or three months had gone by and the 
 matter had been taken up before the 
 state officers of the miners' organiza- 
 tion, with no good result, they still de- 
 fying everybody, I took it before the 
 state board of examiners. Mr. New- 
 sam is one of the board, and I gathered 
 together a force of probably a half 
 dozen men, including the state examin- 
 ers for two or three districts, the 
 county examiners for two districts, the 
 secretary-treasurer of the miners' or- 
 ganization of Illinois, and I think Mr. 
 Cahill was present, and we went down 
 and examined the mine again. A 
 notice was put up by the state author- 
 ities that the miners must cease shoot- 
 ing twice or oftener a day, and must 
 only shoot once a day. Tou will no 
 doubt — or the majority of you will, at 
 least — be surprised to know that they 
 are violating those instructions to this 
 day. 
 
Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 75 
 
 This Is the clasis of people you ask 
 shall be joint judges In saying who 
 shall be out mine examiner. If we had 
 a class of people such as we usually 
 meet here as delegates at our conven- 
 tions we might have no reason to ob- 
 ject. The trouble is, Mr. Chairman, 
 that a handful of men in the locals and 
 in the distriets don't know what is 
 good for them, and possibly they never 
 will know; but nevertheless they con- 
 trol the situation just as they are do- 
 ing at Divemon. I will go add further 
 that one of the men who violated that 
 order so many times was none other 
 than the president of the local — now 
 deposed, however, but still carrying on 
 his work of defying law and authority. 
 When we are asked to submit such im- 
 portant matters as the hiring of a mine 
 examiner to the men in the locals, we 
 want to know that they are sensible 
 and reasonable men. But too often 
 they are not reasonable men, they are 
 not thoughtful men, they don't exer- 
 cise good judgment; but, on the con- 
 trary, they carry out radical views and 
 unwittingly are destroying an organi- 
 zation that has done more for the min- 
 ers of this day than has ever been done 
 in the past. Its good worK could be 
 continued, but radicalism has got to 
 be wiped out, and we have got to have 
 a better class of men in the committees 
 and in control of the locals if you want 
 to reach an ideal condition. It is with- 
 in your grasp, but you will never get 
 it while you have such me.- In control 
 as we have hao at Divemon. I have 
 been handed a memorandum which 
 says, "They have expelled mine ex- 
 aminers for failure to observe rules of 
 the local and closed the mine or im- 
 peded the work." This was at the 
 Junction mine in Springfield in Jan- 
 uary, 1902. No local ruleb jhould stop 
 a mine from working on account of 
 the mine examiner's non-ouservance of 
 those rules. It he has been a violater 
 of the rules he should be handled in 
 some other w^ay, but the company 
 should not be made to suffer because 
 the mine examiner breaks local rules. 
 That thing has got to be stopped. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Moorshead 
 has cited cases here this morning to 
 show why the mirie exani.ner should 
 not belong to the United Mine Work- 
 ers. I cannot believe that the fact that 
 a mine examiner belongs to the United 
 Mine Workers will in any way detract 
 from his competency. I believe there 
 are other men outside of the United 
 Mine Workers and the miners who 
 drink, and I cannot believe that if a 
 mine examiner Is prohibited from be- 
 ing a member of the United Mine 
 Workers it can in any way add to the 
 responsibility of the company should 
 an accident occur, or detract from 
 their responsibility if he is allowed to 
 belong to our organization. There are 
 many reasons why we contend that 
 the mine examiner should be a mem- 
 ber of the United Mine Workers. One 
 
 of the first reasons why we demanded 
 that he belong was that in the past, 
 and in many of the mines today in this 
 state, he will be required to examine 
 the mine in two or three hours, and 
 then a United Mine Worker is dis- 
 placed as a roadman, a timberman, 
 and he is employed in that or some 
 other capacity. 
 
 MR. GREEN: — ^And in some cases in 
 rooms. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— What Mr. Green 
 says is true. In some instances after 
 they have examined the mine they have 
 gone into the rooms and dug coal. We 
 do not object to their doing that so 
 long as they are members of our or- 
 ganization and pay towards the sup- 
 port of the organization. Last year I 
 think I cited a case where several of 
 the operators — members of the operat- 
 ors' association — raised an objection at 
 one time to the mine examiner not be- 
 longing to the organization of United 
 Mine Workers. At that time we were 
 not making any decided effort toi get 
 the mine examiners into our organiza- 
 tion. But the mine managers and the 
 mine examiners had met in a particu- 
 lar district for the purpose of formu- 
 lating a scale, or rather, making a de- 
 mand upon the operators for a scale, 
 and then the operators began to say to 
 us that the mine examiner had no busi- 
 ness to be a member of the managers' 
 association, that they should be mem- 
 bers of the United Mine Workers, and 
 said they were willing to pay them the 
 scale provided for them by the United 
 Mine Workers for that class of work. 
 They even asked us to furnish men to 
 take the places of these men, and we 
 did furnish them. They said to us 
 "You may furnish practical men," and, 
 notwithstanding the fact that the state 
 law of Illinois prohibits a man without 
 a certificate acting in the capacity of 
 mine examiner, even for twenty-four 
 hours, yet they said they would be re- 
 sponsible to the law of the state of Illi- 
 nois, and all they asked us~to do was to 
 furnish the men, and we did it. 
 
 Mr. Moorshead cites the case at 
 Divemon, where he claims the miners 
 are violating the laws of the state of 
 Illinois. While he was explaining this 
 case, it brought to my mind a similar 
 case where the mine insptvitor posted 
 a similar notice on the top of the mine, 
 and the men agreed to do it. Then the 
 company's superintendent and mine 
 manager went around the mine and 
 begged the men to violate that notice 
 and shoot twice a day, because they 
 said if they _ffliiy shot once a day it 
 would curtail their output. I cite this 
 to show to Mr. Moorshead that it is 
 not always the miners who violate- 
 state laws and state agrreements. 
 
 In regard to the elecxrician. Mr. 
 Mooreshead cites the case at Divemon^ 
 My understanding is that the gentle- 
 man had, without any persuasion 
 whatever, joined the United Mine 
 
76 
 
 Morning Session, March 3. 
 
 "Workers, and it was a threat from Mr. 
 Moorshead's side of the house that 
 made him recede from that position. 
 
 In regard to the propmen. I have 
 xievef Icnown of but one vase of the 
 kind he speaks of. That came to our 
 notice during the past year; it was at 
 Oglesby, Mr. Bent's mine. Whenever 
 you attempt to class the man who re- 
 ceives props upon the top as a clerk. 
 I want it understood that' I don't want 
 any clerkship. If a man is to be com- 
 pelled part of the time to trim cars 
 or to lug timbers around the top and 
 senij them down into the mine, and 
 then because the people who are de- 
 livering the props do not get there 
 within the eight hours that man must 
 Tdc retained to work nine or ten hours, 
 I do not think he is being treated just- 
 ly. And then you ask that because 
 that is the case he be prohibited from 
 Joining the United Mine "Workers, when 
 in reality he is working the eight 
 hours as a United Mine Worker, ajid 
 during the two hours he may be re- 
 ceiving props after that time he is 
 working as a company man. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The contention of the 
 operators is that the company shall 
 have the right to keep the man there 
 longer than the eight hours to receive 
 the props. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— If it is necessary 
 «ome provision could be made and 
 would be made to allow your props to 
 be received, but that man should not 
 "be prohibited from becoming a member 
 of the United Mine Workers. 
 
 The operators in the past have com- 
 plained of too many organizations 
 about the mines. You have in the 
 papt complained of the miners not con- 
 trolling the people who were factors in 
 the production of coal, and yet you 
 come here year after year and add to 
 that list. That list is steadily grow- 
 ing, and if it is allowed to continue 
 growing as it has in the past two or 
 three years it will be only a question 
 of a short time until the drivers will 
 lie company men, and the roadmen and 
 all of these people; and it is just what 
 you are doing that has made the min- 
 ers fight for control over the people In 
 and around the mines, a fight that has 
 been sroing on between ourselves and 
 ;the federation of labor for the past two 
 or three years, and that has finally 
 been decided in our favor. 
 
 I am not in favor of adding to the 
 Jist in the agreement; I am in favor of 
 taking some classes away from it this 
 year. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Who told you 
 that I made a threat to' the electrician 
 at Divernon? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't know that 
 ■j can say now. 
 
 MR. MOORSliEAD: — You should 
 not make any such statement, Mr. Rus- 
 .sell, unless you can say who told you 
 this threat was made. I never made 
 any threat. Tbey threatened to force 
 that man into the organization or force 
 
 the mine into idleness. He did not 
 want to belong to the organization, and 
 does not today, and I brand it as a 
 lie that I thjeatened him, I don't care 
 where the statement comes from.. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Didn't the miners re- 
 fer that matter to thp ioint executive 
 board held at St.' Louis? And didn't 
 they send a committee down, and 
 didn't they say that your company re- 
 fused to let the man go into the organ- 
 ization; that he had his money there 
 and was willing to pay it, only the 
 company told him he would be dis- 
 charged if he joined? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— He denied it 
 absolutely to me afterwards and be- 
 fore, and the man that made the state- 
 ment was the president of the local 
 that defied the state and the mine au- 
 thorities in regard to the shooting. That 
 man is totally unreliable, for a man 
 who defies the law as he is doing would 
 say anything. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— President Rus- 
 sell has, in a general way, called atten- 
 tion to one demand that ought to be 
 given consideration by the operators. 
 I understand that there are seven 
 classes of labor that you wish added 
 to the classes already exempt from be- 
 longing to our organization. Mr. Rus- 
 sell has spoken of the numerous or- 
 ganizations that are getting a foothold 
 about the mines. There is now an as- 
 sociation of mine managers that claims 
 jurisdiction over mine examiners. If 
 they are excluded from our organiza- 
 tion you may depend upon it they will 
 join theirs, and that you don't want 
 them to do. The men who have ex- 
 perienced the benefit of belonging to 
 one organization will join another. 
 There is a national organization of elec- 
 tricians. If you exclude the electric- 
 ians from our organization they will 
 join the national association of elec- 
 tricians. The team.sters have an or- 
 ganization, and it will admit men 
 whether they haul around the mines or 
 in the towns. The stablemen can join 
 the same organization. The engineers 
 can go into the hoisting engineers' or- 
 ganization. If I were an operator I 
 would not favor the resolution you 
 bring in here, because if you get five 
 or six labor organizations at your 
 mines, those organizations are going 
 to contend for changed conditions at 
 the mines, and you will have a con- 
 stant turmoil there, because all of 
 these organizations are not as stable 
 as the United Mine Workers of Amer- 
 ica, and I believe you know that. They 
 have not the responsibility a great or- 
 ganization like ours has. Again, It will 
 mean that you will be required to meet 
 in annual convention with five or six 
 different labor, organizations to make 
 your scales — and you now complain 
 bitterly about meeting us and staying 
 at the conventions too long. You will 
 have to stay as long with each of these 
 organizations if you allow them to get 
 a foothold at the mines. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 77/ 
 
 "We have other reasons for not wish- 
 ing those classes of labor exempt from 
 belonging to our organization besides 
 labor union considerations. We don't 
 want to be thrown idle because any one 
 of these organizations rtiay ask for 
 higher wages for Its members. We be- 
 lieve the greatest degree of harmony 
 win be secured by allowing the United 
 Mine Workers to govern all the classes 
 of labor around the mines. 
 
 MR. MOKRIS, (Springfield):— It was 
 not on the part of the company that the 
 mine examiner at Springfield was dis- 
 charged. It was only after repeated 
 complaints to the county inspector that 
 he was discharged. Another mine ex- 
 aminer who belonged to our organiza- 
 tion examined the mine, and would not 
 sign the book after he examined It, 
 because the mine would not work that 
 day if he did, and he was scared of be- 
 ing discharged by the company. The 
 men refused to go down, and the com- 
 pany reported to the sub-district ofld- 
 cers, and they took the county inspec- 
 tor and the state inspector out there 
 to make an examination, and they 
 brought in a report that the examiner 
 was justified and the mine was closed 
 for eight days. 
 
 One of the most serious accidents 
 that has occurred in years. In the Lin- 
 coln Park mine) where eight or ten 
 men were burned, occurred where the 
 examiner did not belong to our organi- 
 zation. The men were badly injured, 
 and some of them are not working yet. 
 A man in our organization will look 
 closer after our interests than a man 
 who does not belong to it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Russell 
 said that the fact that a mine examiner 
 belonged to the union, or rather tO' the 
 United Mine Workers, would not de- 
 tract from his ability or competency. 
 If that is to be used as an argument, 
 there is no class of men that cannot be 
 taken into your organization. It will 
 Include every operator here; It will in- 
 clude the general manager. The mine 
 examiner is really a state officer. He 
 carries with him a state certificate, and 
 if you are going to include the mine 
 examiner simply because he happens 
 to be paid by the company, it is a very 
 good reason why you should also in- 
 clude the county inspector of mines, 
 and also the district inspector of mines. 
 There Isn't any difference; they are all 
 state officers alike. The only difference 
 between the two classes is that the 
 coal company in one instance pays the 
 wages, while in the other they get 
 wages from the state. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In nearly every 
 other state they are members oi the 
 United Mine Workers of America. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Does Mr. 
 Robbins permit that in Pennsylvania? 
 Do the mine examiners iu the mmes 
 controlled by Mr. Robbins belong to 
 the United Mine Workers of AmerlM,? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Some of them do, 
 not all. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —Only those 
 that Mr. Robbins cares to have belong? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No, sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — We are not making a 
 scale for Mr. Robbins or for Pennsyl- 
 vania. 
 
 ' MR. REYNOLDS:- He says because 
 a mine examiner carries a certificate 
 he is a state officer. The mine mana- 
 ger and the hoisting engineer also carry 
 certificates and should aJso be classed 
 as state officers; yet, notwithstanding 
 that fact, the operators meet the hoist- 
 ing engineers and make an agreement 
 with them. They recognize their right 
 to belong to a union. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- We don't ob- 
 ject to their belonging to a union; but 
 we don't want them toi belong to the 
 United Mine Workers; we don't want 
 them controlled by the locals. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I don't think you 
 can cite many cases where the commit- 
 tee has attempted to interfere with the 
 mine examiner in the performance of 
 his duties. The more efficient the mine 
 examiner is the better we are protect- 
 ed. Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Russell have 
 both stated this. 
 
 I notice that this year you wish to 
 exclude several other classes of labor. 
 You are even making assistant clerks 
 of the prop men. Next year you will 
 be coming here and wanting to make 
 the machine runner an assistant to the 
 electrician— if you get the electrician 
 exempt this year. Then I suppose you 
 will ask next year that the drivers be 
 classed as the stableman's assistants, 
 and after a while you will have every- 
 thing about the mine excluded except 
 the man that digs the coal. The sta- 
 blemen are men that work in the mine, 
 as a rule. They have charge of the 
 stable and look after the mules. The 
 electrician usually works in the mine, 
 fixing the machines and doing such 
 things, and I don't see any reason why 
 he should be excluded. The teamster 
 is a yard man, and not only works at 
 teaming, but at any other labor that the 
 mine manager or top foreman wishes 
 him to work at. I do not see why any of 
 these classes should be excluded. "They 
 all work around the mine. The prop 
 men certainly work at everything 
 about the mine. I do not think 
 we should consent to allow any oi these 
 classes to be excluded from our organi- 
 zation. Everyone of them' should be- 
 long to it. 
 
 Adjournment. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 3, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called to order at 
 1:30 p. la. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— The last speaker on 
 the floor this morning spoke of the ex- 
 plosion at Springfield, seeking to blame 
 the examiner for that trouble. I my- 
 eelf have had some talk with the in- 
 spector 'on this matter, and I do not 
 believe the statement made here should 
 
78 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 be allowed to gro unchallenged. The In- 
 spector assured me that It was not a 
 case of fire damp at all, but was a case 
 of the excessive use of powder. I wish 
 that to gro on record. I wish also to 
 state that you may have the best ex- 
 aminers in the world— and you cannot 
 make them too g-ood — yet with the ex- 
 cessive use of powder, with the system 
 of mining we have today, you will have 
 explosions. I don't believe a practical 
 miner in the house will deny that 
 statement. I have had an explosion In 
 one of my mines within the past few 
 weeks where there never was any fire 
 damp in the mine, and where we did 
 not have any dust. The miners even 
 objected to working because the mine 
 was damp. You never heard of this 
 burning of men in our No. 5 seam a terw 
 J' ears ago; but since we have com- 
 menced with the mine-run system and 
 the excessive use of powder we have it. 
 You take and stick in sixteen inches 
 of powder, and if your cartridges are 
 not filled up you will have an explosion 
 becaiise dust will get in there. Within 
 the past few weeks a state inspector 
 caught a miner filling his cartridge up 
 ■with dust. How can we expect any- 
 thing else but these explosio-ns. Mine 
 examiners cannot help that; it is im- 
 possible for them to help it. I don't 
 want the blame for these explosions 
 laid on the mine examiner. Place the 
 blame where it belongs, not on the 
 mine examiner. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I have not made the 
 statement Mr. Newsam assigned to me. 
 I did not say this particular explosion 
 was due to. the carelessness of the mine 
 examlnei. I made the statement that 
 the mo3t disastrous explosions we have 
 had in our district were in mines where 
 we had no jurisdiction over the mine 
 examiner. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,;— We have made 
 provisions to avoid anything of that 
 kind by providing for the employment 
 of shot firers. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Your shot flrers 
 might save somebody else's life, under 
 the system of mining we have today, 
 t'Ut he woaild lose his own life easily. 
 ] would not be shot flrer today, under 
 the system of mining we have, for any 
 v/ages you could offer me. 
 
 (On the substitute before the conven- 
 tion the operators voted Yes, the min- 
 ers voted No, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to strike 
 cut the words "hoisting engineers" from 
 the section now pending. (Seconded.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— This means the 
 section of the present agreement that 
 we are discussing. 
 
 (On the motion to "strike out" the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:- Before voting on the 
 section as it now reads I would like to 
 know whether the explanations in the 
 record of last year as to what certain 
 words in that particular clause means 
 will also be in effect for the ensuing 
 
 year, providing this section 'Is reaf- 
 firmed. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is a question that 
 we have not considered as a body; but 
 conferring with' those near me. It seems 
 as a broad proposition that anything 
 we read'opt this year would carry with 
 11 the explanations attaching to It last 
 year. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Except this committee 
 will make corrections in the Interpre- 
 tation of last vear. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is right. 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the present 
 clause of the agreement the operators 
 voted No, the miners Tooted No, and It 
 was lost.) 
 
 The third resolution of the present 
 agreement was read by the secretary. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move that 
 that resolution be adopted. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and it was lost.) 
 
 The fourth section of the present 
 agreement was read, and it moved and 
 seconded that it be adopted. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion was car- 
 ried.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move you that the 
 following, which is clause "b," section 4, 
 operators' scale, be inserted as clause 
 "b" of the resolution just adopted: 
 
 "(b) Where chain mining machines 
 are used the machine cuttings shall be 
 thrown back into the gob or loaded out 
 by company men, at the option of the 
 operator, and under no circumstances 
 shall such cuttings be loaded out by 
 the miners." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Even Mr. Rob- 
 bins wouldn't ask us to do that 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Because he does not 
 have to; they do it without asking. In 
 Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Indiana they 
 do it, and also In a large part of the 
 state of Illinois. It has been suggested 
 here that we accept Mr. Robbins' prac- 
 tice on anything we disagree on. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You would not be abso- 
 lutely safe then. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Let us fix his 
 mming price here. 
 
 MR. BENT: -We can agree on that. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: -We might agree on 
 that,-^but it probably wouldn't affect 
 Mr. Robbms any. 
 
 MR RYAN:-Will you give us his in- 
 side day wage scale? 
 
 MR. MITCHELI^Will you give us 
 his pick mining prices— 51% cents for 
 run-of-mine coal? 
 
 mw fl-^^^^?^?=-^"^ t^^ machine- 
 mine differential on pick mining prices? 
 
 ^ thT^'il*^ ^l^"^ *° ^et it. Speaking 
 tc the motion, I will say we have had 
 this matter up in our district. We had 
 It up last year. We took it up In the 
 sub-district meeting first, and then it 
 was referred back to the state execu- 
 tive board, who referred it back a^^n 
 to the sub-district, and notWng^s 
 done. We took the matter up through 
 the national officials, but, owSig to cS 
 cumstances beyond the conti^ of the 
 
AFTERNOON SBSSION, MARCH 3. 
 
 79 
 
 officials, they were unable to get a 
 irieeting prior to this convention. This 
 if the first opportunity we have had to 
 get the matter up. I think anyone who 
 is acquainted with the mining situation 
 will agree that the machine cuttings of 
 a chain machine have no business in 
 "With the coal. Any machine runner 
 will tell you that, no matter how care- 
 ful he may be, he will get into the 
 •clay. That clay going out with th». 
 eoal will ruin it. That stufE is not a 
 -merchantable product. It destroys your 
 coal and benefits noi one to any con- 
 siderable extent. When we had that 
 matter UD in the sub-district I pro- 
 duced figures to show, that it would 
 make a difference of less than one cent 
 a day on the miners' earnings. No one 
 contradicted the figures there. The only 
 difference it can malie to the miner is 
 what he would save in loading out the 
 •coal. We have been bothered with that 
 stuff. At one time we had three or four 
 hundred cars of coal on our tracks that 
 we could not sell ion account of that 
 material in it. Just the other day the 
 miners sent up three or four cars of that 
 stuff together and it clogged up the 
 chute and shut us down for some little 
 time. It blows all over the place; I 
 suppose we have tons of it that blow 
 away every day, buries evey thing up 
 and clogs our scales so that they will 
 not weigh correctly. It ds a detriment 
 in every respect; there Isn't a redeem- 
 ing feature about it; and why the min- 
 ers in our district should object to hav- 
 ing that loaded out separately is some- 
 thing lam unable to understand. They 
 Ell claim they would rather load lumps 
 than fine coal. That is so fine it is 
 powder; it makes dust when they are 
 loading it into the car, and certainly is 
 not pleasant to handle. On a month's 
 iun it probably would not make ovei 
 i^ cents, and the advantage we have 
 by having it out of the way would cer- 
 tainly more than make up any small 
 •difference. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I have to tes- 
 tify to all that Mr. Lukens has said 
 in, regard to the machine cuttings; and 
 in addition to it will assert that the 
 loader is not entitled to the 42 cents a 
 ton for loading out the stuff that he 
 does nothing whatever ito produce. The 
 machine cuttings are merely the result 
 of the preparation of the coal for the 
 Tniner. The miner might just as well 
 assert that he has a right to put his 
 •shovel into the gob and load out clay 
 and dust such as comes from the 
 punching machines as he has to say 
 he has a right to load out the machine 
 cuttings after a chain machine. It is 
 an unfair thing for the miner to say 
 that he should put his shovel into the 
 stuff and load it out and penalize the 
 -company to the extent of forty-two 
 •cents a ton for doing it. It •'is not a 
 fair proposition by any means. You 
 are all interested in getting a good run- 
 of-mlne coal in the state of Illinois. 
 Tou want it. Tou desire to perpetuate 
 
 the run-of-mine system. We are quite 
 willing to help ycya get a great many 
 things that you cause us toi oppose you 
 in, simply because you do not do what 
 Is right about it. It is absolutely 
 wrong for the miners to persist in load- 
 ing out. that stuff and charging 42 
 cents a ton for it when they do not 
 expend one particle of work in produc- 
 ing it. The machines are preparing it 
 for the miner, and it is a part of the 
 preparation. The miner does not pro- 
 duce it; he simply loads it out; and 
 the result of loading that stuff out is 
 that jt makes a very poor quality of 
 mine-run, creates no end of trouble for 
 us, and makes the coal so inferior that 
 we have continual trouble in the mar- 
 ket with it. There is not a miner here 
 that could be induced to burn it in his 
 own home. The operators are abso- 
 lutely right in asking for this. It is 
 conceded in most parts of the state of 
 Illinois, and it should be conceded with- 
 out any confiict to the few mines 
 where the contention has been going on 
 now for nearly a year. We have got 
 to have it; I tell you that. Sooner or 
 later we must have it; no matter what 
 we have to pay to get it. It is not 
 right to go on forcing us to put that 
 stuff in the coal; it does not belong to 
 the miner at all. 
 
 MR. DONK:— In one of the mines 
 where we use chain machines the ex- 
 perience of 'our company has been that 
 we could not produce marketable mine- 
 run coal. We were obliged to screen 
 part of the fine dust out of it before 
 we could market the coal. Every time 
 we attempted to leave it in iwe lost 
 business, and lost the opportunity to 
 sell any more. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I want to relate a 
 little incident. The foreman went 
 around and found that the machine 
 runner in making some of his runs had 
 got into the clay entirely; had cut 
 nothing but clay, and the manager 
 found the miner was loading that into 
 his car along with the rest of the coal. 
 The manager objected to it, of course, 
 and the miner told him the machine 
 runner was giving him that stuff and 
 he proposed to give it to the company, 
 and he kept on doing it. Take that 
 kind of stuff, and no matter how 
 careful the machine runner may be he 
 will cut in the clay occasionally, and it 
 is almost impossible to keep it out; but 
 when you get it on. .top it is evident 
 enough. We had a case with one of the 
 big industries in Chicago where we 
 have been shipping Virden screenings, 
 and they made a kick about it and said 
 the screenings were half sand. I told 
 them that sand was more valuable in 
 that county than coal was, and we 
 could not afford to waste it. I went 
 down to see the stuff, and found it 
 was the clay that had gone into the 
 machine coal. I did not blame them 
 for objecting to it. We lost the bus- 
 iness. I Will repeait what Mr. Moors- 
 head said, that the miner does nothing 
 
80 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 tc produce the cuttings, and he is not 
 entitled to it in any way. The machine 
 runner gets it out simply as a part of 
 the preparation of the coal for the 
 miner. There is no reason on the face 
 of the' earth why the miner should have 
 a right to load that stuff out, especially 
 where he is hurting himself and hurt- 
 ing the company by doing it. The min- 
 ers in our mines have lost more bus- 
 iness and lost more work over that 
 matter than would pay them a hundred 
 times over to throw that back In the 
 gob, or to have allowed us to throw it 
 back. They are a hundred times worse 
 off today than if they had consented at 
 th3 district meeting last spring to let 
 us thro'w that stuff back and not load 
 it up. 
 
 MR. DONK:— I would like to call 
 your attention to the clause we have 
 just adopted. It says: "It Is under-' 
 stood in every case to be coal free from 
 slate, bone and other impurities." That 
 clause justifies our position. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Let it go lat that. 
 MR. DONK:— I take it when you 
 adopt a thing of that kind you mean 
 to carry it out. Unless this clause is 
 adopted it will not be done, because It 
 has not been done heretofore. Refer- 
 ring again to my own operations, I will 
 say that Mr. Russell, Mr. Reynolds and 
 Mr. Hefti have been there, and I have 
 drawn their at.tentlO'n to the excessive 
 amount of fine coal produced by the 
 mine. I am satisfied that four or five 
 per cent of that excessive amount of 
 fine coal is attributable to the fact 
 that these cuttings are loaded in with 
 the coal. Last year the contention was 
 made on the part of the miners that 
 we were selling this stuff along- with 
 the mine-run coal. That was wrong, 
 then, and it is wrong now. I cannot 
 sell the coal for mine-run coal and 
 leave that stuff in it. I would rather 
 throw the stuff away and pay you for 
 loading the stuff up, and then when I 
 make a mine-run coal I would make a 
 grade that is marketable. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Are you aware that 
 some of the operators In the state of 
 Illinois haul that stuff out after it is 
 loaded and dump it into the cars with 
 the mine-run coal? 
 MR. DONK— 1 am not aware of that. 
 MR. LUKENS:— Where is It done? 
 MR. RYAN:— At Staunton and Mt. 
 Olive Coal Co. No. 1. We know they 
 do that. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— You say they 
 load this out separately and dump it 
 into the cars and sell It as mine-run 
 coal? 
 MR. RYAN:— Yes, sir. 
 MR. SWEET:— Do they mix it with 
 the mine-run coal? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— They haul it out and 
 dump it Into the cars and ship It as 
 mine-run coal. The company does it. 
 It is thrown back out of the way, and 
 after the room is cleaned up this stufC 
 is loaded on the pit cars, hauled out 
 
 and dumped among the coal that has 
 been hoisted. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I am sorry 
 that the superintendent or representa- 
 tive of that mine is not here, because 
 that is not the statement they have 
 made to me. I am inclined to think 
 your information lis wrong, because I 
 don't think they could (force that on 
 any consignee. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The statement Is sus- 
 ceptible of proof, either by you or 
 by us. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I would re- 
 gret to know that your statement is 
 correct, because it must have a bad 
 effect upon the trade. I think every- 
 body here will agree with me that the 
 dumping of that stuff into the mine- 
 run coal, especially after it has been 
 leaded up and put Into a car, is a bad 
 thing for your organization, dt is bad 
 for themselves, and it is bad all 
 around. It ha;s a bad effect upon the 
 run-of-mlne system, because the 
 people complain of the run-of-mine, 
 and we tell them in turn we are forced 
 tc do it because the organization says 
 we must. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Lukens what step did your mine man- 
 ager take to punish the miner that 
 was caught loading the clay? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I am sorry to say 
 he didn't do anything. I didn't know 
 anything about it until some days after 
 it happened, and at that time we felt 
 if we took any steps it would throw 
 the mines idle. The men would not 
 stand for any discharge or disciplining 
 of that man, and the mine manager 
 was afraid, so didn't do anything. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is it not a fact that 
 the state board member, catching a 
 miner at one of your mines doing 
 something of that kind, insisted on his 
 bemg dismissed on the spot, under this 
 same agreement? Didn't Mr. McCaU 
 do that at Auburn? 
 MR. LUKENS:— I don't know. 
 MR. RYAN:-He did It at Auburn 
 ana would have done dt at Virden if 
 he had been notified. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:-Is it not a fact that 
 the miners have loaded this stuff at 
 your mine out ever since the mine-run 
 system came into> extistence' 
 
 MR. LUKENS :-No; they have load- 
 ed It out ever since we have had the 
 machines there. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL :-Is it not a fact that 
 you never objected to it until last 
 spring at the district meeting' 
 
 MR^ LUKBNS:-Yes, that Is a fact. 
 We never before did much running 
 down there except in winter when there 
 was a fair demand for coal, ahd^? 
 hadn't bothered us much up' trthat 
 
 vo^^=.^^^^^^^=-^^ " n°t a fact that 
 you have made, or helped to make Til 
 the scales up toi last spring, and had 
 never objected to if 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Last year wacj t»,» 
 first time I was in this dnvln^n. ex! 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 81 
 
 Cfcpt as a kicker against the scales that 
 were made. I did come in last year 
 and help make the scale. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Didn't you help make 
 the scale two years ago? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I think not. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Last year I know 
 was the first time. "We had pulled out 
 of the association, and it was the fall 
 of 1900 that we joined again, and last 
 year was the first time I was in the 
 convention except in the guise of a 
 hicker or objector. Tl;ie reason we ob- 
 jected to that bug dust last year was 
 because we had several hundred cars 
 of coal on the track we teould not sell. 
 We had all sorts of grief and trouble 
 with the railroad company about it. 
 
 MR. DONK: — Any company that will 
 resort to methods of the kind stated 
 here certainly does a reprehensible 
 piece of business, and I don't think the 
 other oi)erators here want to stand it 
 for one moment. It is a piece of busi- 
 ness that is wrong and illigitimate, and 
 it casts discredit on the operators and 
 miners alike. Take these cuttings at 
 our mine No. 1. The coal there fires 
 very easily, and to leave this fine coal 
 in the gob would Increase our danger 
 from spontaneous combustion in the 
 mines. Therefore it is to the interest 
 Of the operators who own the mines 
 to have it removed from the rooms to 
 protect their property. When we first 
 started using the machines at No. 1 
 the company employed men at their 
 own expense to^ load this stuff out. It 
 was dumped along with the otker 
 screenings, or cast aside, I forget 
 which. Take the screenings in our dis- 
 trict, especially for the last season — 
 except for a few weeks when there has 
 been a' shortage of cars — and this stuff 
 has been a drug on the market; you' 
 cannot 'get rid of it. AVhen you mix 
 all the cuttings with the screenings 
 people do not want it at all. Our com- 
 pany has dumped any amount of the 
 stuff along the line for ballast. 
 
 MR. SWEET: — I had a little experi- 
 ence last year with this bug dust ques- 
 tion. When I first opened thf mine near 
 Virden and commenced an effort to sell 
 the screenings, I very soon ran up 
 against this question,. "Are your 
 screenings loaded with the bug dust in 
 them?" We would say that they were 
 in some cases. The reply would be, 
 "Well, we don't want any screenings." 
 That has been used by some parties 
 who are selling screenings in our mar- 
 ket in Chicago. They go to our cus- 
 tomers and ask if they are buying our 
 screenings. If the customer says he is 
 he is told, "Well, that stuff has got 
 the bug dust in it, and it is no good," 
 and we are soon called tO' account for 
 not keeping it out. If you load it into 
 mine-run coal it makes it worthless. 
 It is bad enough without that in. Very 
 few people can burn mine-run from 
 that field; and when you put this stuff 
 in it is practically worthless; and the 
 screenings are wp'rth nothing when it 
 
 is put in with the screenings. I can- 
 not understand how it is that anybody 
 for a moment could think of loading 
 that stuff out and trying to sell it in 
 the market. If the miners will agree 
 to this resolution I will agree to pay 
 the miners a dollar a ton for every 
 ton of that stuff that we sell to any- 
 body, and a dollar a toD for every 
 pound of coal we attempt toi put on 
 the market with that stuff in it. The 
 screenings are bad enough without put- 
 ting the bug dust in 'to make them 
 still worse. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I want to 
 have it plainly understood here that 
 we deny absolutely the miners' right 
 to load that out. As I said before, they 
 do nothing whatever in the production 
 of it, and it is an unfair proposition 
 to the leleotric machine men to^ ask 
 them to pay forty-two cents a ton for 
 that, simply because they put their 
 shovels into the stuff and load It into 
 a car, when it ought to be in the gob. 
 There is not a miner here, not one, who, 
 if he was an operator of a machine 
 mine, taut would resist this just as hard 
 as we are doing. If the miner put in 
 one single hour in the production of it 
 he might have some claim, but he does 
 rot. The machine creates it merely in 
 the production of the coal so that the 
 miner may produce a better coal. Not 
 one particle of labor, outside of putting 
 his shovel in it and putting it into the 
 car, does he put in the production Of 
 bug dust coal, not a particle. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Doesn't the ma- 
 chine man have a claim upon it? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I said the 
 miner loading at the face. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Would the machine 
 man make any money if the miner 
 didn't load? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — He would 
 make what the miner makes, because 
 he loads coal that is shot down by 
 the miner. The bug dust is produced 
 in trying to secure a good grade of coal, 
 and w^hen it is put in there it makes 
 the coal worse instead of better. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— Who pays the 
 machine runner and miner? ' 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We do. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN: — Out of the 
 forty-nine cents? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Out of the 
 forty-two cents. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— We pay seven 
 cents for the machine to prepare that 
 coal; then we pay another five or six 
 cents to get somebody to pull that bug 
 dust out, and then we should pay for 
 it again by shoveling it back. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- 1 would like 
 to know what you would do with the 
 stuff if mined in the clay entirely? 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— That is not] 
 coal. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do you con^ 
 Sider the machine cuttings coal? 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— Tes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — Would you 
 use it in your home? 
 
82 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— Yes, 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— You would 
 not, and you know it. 
 
 MR. CAHILL,:— It seems strange that 
 that question of bug dust came up 
 there for the fh-st time last spring. 
 We have had machines running there 
 for the past three or four years, and 
 there never was a holler made on the 
 bug dust, so called, before. I don't 
 know where the name came from. Mr. 
 Mooreshead last year on his way to 
 Springfield went to Divernon, and there 
 happened to be a car of that bug dust 
 come up on the cage. He was loading 
 for run-of-mine, and the car was 
 dumped, and of course all went into 
 the flat at one time. He protested 
 against their loading this bug dust 
 any more. A committee of the men 
 came to Springfield, myself, the district 
 president, Went to Mr. Moorshead, and 
 he said he didn't care for the bug 
 dust going into the flat, but he didn't 
 want it all going in together. We made 
 an agreement with him that the stuff 
 should be distributed through all the 
 cars in the run. I went to Staunton 
 'one day, and this was one of the 
 grieva,nces the men had. The Staunton 
 Coal Co., No. 1, loaded this bug 
 dust on the car, sent it on top and 
 dumped iit into the run-of-mine flat, 
 and paid at the rate of $2.10 a day 
 for it. For the flfty tons of bug dust 
 that was loaded out the company paid 
 $10.50. Neither the Staunton Coal Com- 
 pany nor no other coal company should 
 be allowed to load that stuff out by 
 the day. It is a part of the vein, and 
 if the vein is worked with a machine 
 it comes in with the run-of-mine sys- 
 tem. If the clay is cut, that is not 
 ooal; it is not a part of that vein, 
 and it should not be loaded out. 
 
 Mr. liUkens stated that it would only 
 amount to about a cent a dav on the 
 men's wages. One machine cuts on an 
 average eight or nine tons of this stuff 
 in an eight hours' run. That would cut 
 a man's wages down from fifty-five to 
 sixty cents a day if it was thrown back. 
 Isn't that a reduction on the machine 
 man? If there are 60 tons oT coal In a 
 room and three tons of that are thrown 
 back, it will leave only fifty-seven 
 tons. Isn't that a reduction to the 
 miner? I claim it is a part of the vein 
 through the state of Illinois, and it 
 should be loaded out 'in all mines alike. 
 I am satisfied the operators will not 
 leave it in the mines — they will load it 
 out. I remember when we had the 
 screen system. If a men threw a shovel 
 full of slack in the gob he might be 
 discharged for it. I have seen the mine 
 managers go through the mines turn- 
 ing over the slack to see that nothing 
 was left there. This is simply a sub- 
 terfuge to keep, from paying for this 
 by the ton. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Cahill ia 
 mistaken about the settlement we had 
 at Springfield, or the agrreement, rather. 
 We were not loading mine- run; we 
 
 were loading lump coal, and the miners 
 were sending that stuff out separately, 
 and there was so -muph of it that our 
 big screens would not take care of it 
 and it ran Into the screened lump coal. 
 That agreement was simply a tempor- 
 ary measure to prevent the spoilmg of 
 our lump coal until such time as we 
 could get the matter of machme cut- 
 tings settled. It would not make any 
 difference whatever in the earning 
 power of a man if it was thrown back. 
 He will have all the coal he can load 
 without it, and a great deal more than 
 he does, as a rule. He can work eight 
 hours a day loading coal if he wants 
 to, but he will ,not do It. It would 
 make no difference to the loader. He 
 would have all the good coal he wanted 
 to load if he cared to do it, and he 
 need not lose a single minute. You 
 would not say that he lost any time 
 or money if he was cutting clay. Of 
 course not. What is the difference be- 
 tween throwing those cuttings back in 
 the gob, whether the-y are coal or clay? 
 In our mine at Divernon they have an 
 average of 8% feet of coal, and the cut- 
 tings amount to five inches. They 
 would simply be loading good coal in- 
 stead of bad, and it would make no 
 difference with the earnings. 
 
 MR. DONK:— I take it that it is just 
 as much, or should be, to the interest 
 of the miner as to the interest of the 
 operator to get these questions satis- 
 factorily settled. The miners have 
 been contending at the interstate meet- 
 ings to maintain the run-of-mlne basis, 
 in Illinois, and to get the same system 
 adopted in the other states in the in- 
 terstate movement. Taking you at 
 your own word, you should try to 
 make that mine-run system as accept- 
 able as possible, and give us as little 
 cause for objections on good grounds as 
 possible. Removipg the bug dust from 
 the coal will greatly reduce the amount 
 of fine coal in the mines where thel 
 chain machine is used, and will in- 
 crease the percentage of lump coal and 
 make a better quality, In some of the 
 mines where the coal is damp, where 
 there is a large amount of fine coal, 
 a great deal of it will pass over thel 
 screens and get into the lump coal and 
 affect its quality. But supposing that 
 is not the case, the operators that 
 operate machine mines certainly want 
 to be able to produce as good a quality 
 of lump coal as their competitors, 
 and under as favorable conditions 
 as their competitors and when the 
 per cent of fine coal in a 
 mine increases from five to ten per cent 
 over his competitors he is not in line 
 with them. Suppose there were a few 
 parties who put this stuff in with their 
 mine-run — which is clearly wrong — 
 that puts the man that wants to do 
 a square business in a worse position. 
 My company has not been able to dis- 
 pose of mine-run coal when this stuff 
 is left in. I tried it and had to stop 
 it. I either had to quit putting it In 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 83 
 
 ' or lose all the mine-run business I 
 had. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou said before 
 that you could not leave that stuft in 
 your mines, that it would cause fires. 
 What would vou dO' with it if your 
 miners threw it back? 
 
 MR. DONK: — I would hire extra men 
 and load it out, and either unload it 
 on the dump or put it under the boilers, 
 oi put it on a dump car and use it 
 for ballast, as I did before. I have 
 ■ tried to get rid of it by mixing it with 
 mine-run, but I could not do it, and 
 I don't know how other people can do 
 it. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — If you had a customer 
 who would buy it, would you sell it? 
 MR. DONK:— Yes, sir; but I haven't 
 found him yet. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Should not the 
 miner get paid for this? Would you be 
 willing to measure your vein from the 
 top of the cut? 
 
 MR. DONK:— I don't know that that 
 has anything to do with the question. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Prom a miner's 
 standpoint it would have something 
 like five cents a ton to do with it. At 
 Carlinville the operators complain 
 mostly of the impurities that come out 
 with the bug dust. They said in case 
 of rain it showed up so bad on the car 
 it looked as if the car had been through 
 a snow storm. In other cases they 
 complained that it melted on the bars, 
 and they could not use it. At that time 
 the operators gave them- to understand 
 that where impurities were sent out in 
 the bug dust it would come under the 
 same clause as other Impurities and 
 they could be punished for it. 
 
 MR. DONK: — In the mine I have 
 reference to I gave Instructions to the 
 superintendent, whenever possible to 
 mine in the fire clay, to do it. I would 
 like to ask you if a machine cuts partly 
 in the coal and partly in the clay, and 
 it gets all mixed up, would you be 
 able to detect the amount of fire clay 
 in that stuff when it comes up? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Under the old 
 system they o-ften had to cut some in 
 the coal and some in the clay. 
 
 MR. DONK:— When the coal and fire 
 clay comes mixed up with the coal, 
 will you be able to detect how much 
 of the fire clay and how much of the 
 coal dust is in it? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I think It is an 
 easy matter to find out when the ma- 
 chine cutter is cutting in the clay or 
 partly in the coal. I don't see where 
 there could be any mistake In that re- 
 spect. The miners do not claim they 
 have a right to load out the impurities. 
 Where the electric machine is used it 
 is seldom that they go Into the clay, 
 because they prefer to out the coal, 
 unless there Is rock there. 
 
 MR. DONK: — The machine runner 
 
 certainly can tell when he Is In the clay 
 
 or coal, but does the loader pay much 
 
 attention to that? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— He wouW pay as 
 
 much attention to that impurity as to 
 any other. You never answered my 
 question in regard to whether you 
 would be willing to measure from the 
 top of the cut In your mine, to estab- 
 lish the fact whether you were en- 
 titled- to the 49 or the 54-cen't rate. 
 MR. DONK:— I would not. 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do you want 
 me to doi the same' thing at Dlvemon' 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— You do not need 
 to do that, because they cut in the 
 coal and load what they cut, just like 
 any other part of the vein. You have 
 the same right there if there are any 
 impurities sent out to punish a man, 
 the same as if it was sulphur or slate. 
 MR. (MOORSHEAD:— You do not 
 care to measure in DiverRon from the 
 top of the cutting to the top of the 
 coal? If you did you would find you 
 had over eight feet of coal. You said 
 something about a five-cent advance. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— The mining rate 
 is for a six-foot vein. W^here you have 
 one case where it goes two feet above 
 we can show you twenty cases where 
 it goes down below six feet; we can 
 more than average up with you If you 
 want to take it up on that. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I have two 
 properties that have that kind of coal. 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- You 'are about 
 the only one in the state that has. 
 MR. DONK:— I have. 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— In one property 
 you have. You have it in No. 2, but 
 not in No. 1. 
 
 MR. DONK:— Whenever the coal gets 
 too low on account of horsebacks or 
 rolls I have to stand the racket. 
 
 'MR. REYNOLDS:— How inuch below 
 does it get before the miner gets any- 
 thing for it? 
 
 MR. DONK:— We go according to the 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- In your No. 1 
 mine the vein don't averag-e six feet, 
 hardly five and one-half feet, and 
 what the miner makes in No. 2 by the 
 thicker vein he loses in No. 1. 
 
 MR. DONK:— It does look to me 
 manifestly wrong that when we get 
 together as we do here that only one 
 side of a question is at times taken 
 into consideration. Take a mine opera- 
 tor who has developed a property, and 
 after he has spent one or two hundred 
 thousand dollars, all at once nature 
 may step in, and conditions arise which ' 
 he could not possibly have foreseen. 
 All the drawbacks he meets with he 
 has to contend with single handed; 
 the miners do not help him one iota. 
 On the other hand, if he has another 
 piece of property where nature has 
 been more kind to him, the miner 
 steps in and takes it all and never 
 gives the operator any of the benefit 
 Tt they would give him some benefit of 
 it, it would help to sweeten the bitter- 
 ness of the other condition. But this 
 is never done. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Is it fair to the pick 
 operators of the state that the miners 
 
84 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 grant the machine operators the condi- 
 tion they ask for? 
 
 MR. bONK:— I don' think they have 
 p. right to kick. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— The pick operators of 
 certain parts of the state are kicking 
 against the machine operators getting 
 that condition. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do they un- 
 dercut the coal? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— NOi sir; but they 
 claim the present agreement gives the 
 machine operators seven cents; and If 
 this bug dust is given them It widens 
 the differential between the machine 
 and the pick. 
 
 MR. S"WEET:— If they undercut the 
 coal with a. pick they would be en- 
 titled to the labor they put into it; 
 but where they are mining with pow- 
 der very little bug dust comes along 
 with it, it is good coal. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I am a pick operator, 
 and I am state secretary, yet I heard 
 nothing of that kind in any part of tha 
 state, and I say the operator that does 
 not say it in our association, and says 
 it elsewhere, should not receive any 
 consideration. We say in regard to this 
 bug dust that it Is not merchantable 
 coal, and the miner should not load it 
 out, and If the company loads it out to 
 prevent fire, they do not make anything 
 out of it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Some of the operators 
 that are taking part in this controversy 
 say there should not be even a 7-cent 
 differential. 
 
 MR. LTJKENS:— I want to say to Mr. 
 Cahill in regard to the position of the 
 pick operators on this question, that 
 before we had the meeting in Carlin- 
 vllle a circular letter was sent out by 
 the secretary of the organization call- 
 ing attention to the fact that that 
 meeting would be held, and requesting 
 any operator who had objections 
 to that being given to the ma- 
 chine operators to be present at that 
 meeting and state their objections. He 
 asked every pick operator in the state 
 to be present and explained the object 
 of the meeting. That circular was sent 
 to every operator in the state of Illi- 
 nois who is a member of the operators' 
 association. There wasn't a pick oper- 
 ator at that meeting, not one. If they 
 had any kick coming, or had any ob- 
 jection to that, they certainly had a 
 right to be present. 
 
 This thing of writing letters into the 
 miners objecting to some points, that 
 tbey haven't the moral courage to come 
 up and object to themselves, iS' not the 
 right thing for them to do; and I say 
 with Mr. Bent that they are not en- 
 titled tO' any consideration, and should 
 not have it. I will say further that 
 this matter is of as much benefit to the 
 pick operators of the state of Illinois 
 as It is to the machine operators, be- 
 cause It has resulted in a lower price 
 on the screenings; and while the pick 
 operators would get the preference, and 
 du get the preference over the machine 
 
 operators, they have to meet the pnce 
 made by the machine operators on 
 those screenings and it has been a 
 detriment to him as well as to the ma- 
 chine operators. 
 
 I want to take Mr. CahlU's figures 
 in regard to. this coal, and say that I 
 figured It up, and find that it makes 
 one-tenth of a cent a ton difference 
 to the miner. I take Mr. CahlU's fig- 
 ures for this. A miner will pay $2 a 
 keg for powder, and that will produce 
 one hundred tons of coal. If they get 
 60 tons of coal at a cost of two cents 
 a ton it would cost them $1.20. If they 
 only got 57 tons instead of 60, on ac- 
 count of the three tons of bug dust, 
 the powder then would cost them two 
 and one-tenth cents. I will submit to 
 any fair-minded miner, if he would not 
 rather have that stuff out of his way 
 and loa.d good clean coal. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— The case was taken 
 up at Carlinville, but It was referred 
 there at my request from the sub-dis- 
 trict, where we saw we could not do 
 anything with it. We discussed it at 
 Carlinville, and it- was referred . back 
 to the sub-district again. A call was 
 sent out to the sub-district presidents 
 and the pick operators of that district, 
 and they protested to. the district presi- 
 dents against calling any such meet- 
 ing, and asked the sub-district officer 
 if he Intended to call a meeting for 
 the purpose of giving the machine 
 operators that bug dust. Those were 
 the pick operators of the C. & A. sub- 
 trict. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— If vou make that 
 "the pick mine operator," of that dis- 
 trict, you would be more nearly right. 
 
 MR. CAHILL: — No, sir; there were 
 more than lome of them. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The pick mine oper- 
 ators of the C. & A. sub-district were 
 in the first meeting where the matter 
 was taken up, and but one operator in 
 that entire district objected to taking 
 this matter up and settling it the way 
 the machine operators desired; and he 
 made no objection on the flo©r there 
 or in public to the consideration, of 
 that subject, or to giving the machine 
 cperators what they wanted. I under- 
 stand )that that company afterwards 
 communicated with your organization 
 on the subject. The operator did not 
 make an objection at the time the meet- 
 ing was held; he kept his mouth shut: 
 but the other operators, every one of 
 them, expressed themselves as being in- 
 different or hoped we would get it. 
 They offered no objection whatever; 
 but, on the other hand, most of them 
 said they would be glad to have us 
 get It. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— The delegates repre- 
 senting the mines I have reference to 
 are here; they heard the statement 
 made by the operator. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I do not question 
 your veracity Mr. Cahill, but I am lell- 
 ing you what occurred at the meeiing. 
 
 MR. SEATON:— I doii't Icnow what 
 
Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 85 
 
 operator tlifey have reference to; but 
 when that 'bUK dust question came up 
 our superintendent called me in and 
 we had a long discussion about it. He 
 protested against it. He expected that 
 I would be a delegate to that meeting. 
 He not only did that, but he furnished 
 me figures to show he was right. They 
 most certainly protested bitterly 
 against the bug dust question. 
 
 MR. DONK:— I take it for granted 
 these gentlemen are right, and that 
 there are one or two operators — or, to 
 be more liberal, malle it four or five 
 operators, in the state qt Illinois, who 
 are objecting to the machine mine 
 operators having this. You will always 
 In any case where there are a large 
 number of interests represented, find 
 some particular few who will object — 
 r.ot because they have good cause to 
 object — but because they are In the 
 habit of objecting, and they can not 
 help doing it right along. That should 
 Tfot affect the question under considera- 
 tion at all. 
 
 MR. POUCHER:— The meeting that 
 was called at that time at Carlinville 
 was called, I think, by the district 
 president. I was president of my local 
 at that time, and when I came out of 
 ■the mine and was going past the office 
 the superintendent called me in. He 
 is a member of the company, by the 
 way, and he said he understood that 
 we had asked for another meeting on 
 the bug- dust question. He saldj "I 
 wish you would see the district presi- 
 dent and tell him not to call a meet- 
 ing if he does not have to. "We don't 
 want that question to come up any 
 more. It would be a great detriment 
 to our pick mine operators here to al-' 
 low the machine operators to have that 
 l3ug dust." I did as he asked me to. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't think 
 anything could show more plainly how 
 much the machine cuttings hurt coal 
 than the situation at Divernon has 
 shown since we have been operating 
 there. "We have contracts for run-of- 
 mine coal, but We load it at Mount 
 Olive or Glen Carbon. We could not 
 dispose of the run-of-mlne at Divernon. 
 Our statistical record, month after 
 montb, showed that the screenings 
 ■coming from the Divernon mine aver- 
 aged 46 per cent. Would the miners 
 like to buy that stufC and use It? I 
 think not. If you have any interest 
 whatever in your run-of-mine system, 
 if you want to be reasonably fair to 
 the operators that are running the 
 electrical machines, you will not allow 
 this contention to go on until we are 
 forced to go to extremes in the 
 matter; particularly since we are not 
 asking the miner to lose one dollar by 
 It; on the contrary, he reaps an ad- 
 vantage just as much as we do. It is 
 useless to go on repeating, from time 
 tc time, in all sorts of meetings, dis- 
 trict, state and interstate, and re- 
 ferring the matter finally to Mr. Mit- 
 chell as we have done, if we can not 
 
 get fairer consideration than we have 
 had. We must do something else. We 
 have certainly had enough contention 
 in the state of Illinois, there is cer- 
 tainly ill feeling enough on the part 
 of the operators against the abuses in 
 mining, without adding this one to it; 
 and if you decide It in our favor you 
 will do just as much good JEor your- 
 selves E^s you will for us, and lose no 
 money by doing It. 
 
 MR, LUKENS:— That is a point I 
 would like to emphasize. The operator 
 is not alone in this matter; the miners 
 are just as much Interested In It. I 
 want to say again what I said before, 
 that the miners of our company lost 
 ir work last summer a hundred times 
 as much as they would have lost had 
 they consented to allow that bug dust 
 to be thrown back. We could not sell 
 the coal, and consequently we could 
 not give them the worli. They are just 
 an much interested in this matter as 
 we are, or more than we are. We 
 make a small profit on a ton of coal; 
 the miner makes a good big profit on i t ; 
 he is consequently much more inter- 
 ested than we are, and I would like 
 to emphasize that point and get the 
 miners to consider that phase of It. 
 This i.s' not an individual matter; you 
 are just as much interested in it as we 
 are, perhaps more. 
 
 MR, MOORSHEAD:— Who are the 
 operators from the C. & A. sub-district 
 who objected to the machine mine 
 operators getting this? 
 
 MR. CAHIDL,:— The Green Ridge 
 Coal Company and the Carlinville Coal 
 Company. The rest of them are all 
 either machine mines or owned by the 
 Chicago- Virden Coal Company. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Who is the 
 operator of the Carlinville mines? 
 
 MR. CAHILL,:— Tou will find his 
 name signed to the C. & A. scale — it is 
 Mr. Behrens. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Who is the operator of 
 the Green Ridge Company? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Mr. Lamaghi and 
 Mr. O'Gara. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I have heard an In- 
 teresting bit of news just now. One of 
 the operators referred to here, in 
 speaking to another operator, said he 
 didn't want the operators of the ma- 
 chine mines to have the privilege of 
 throwing that bug dust back. He 
 wanted them to be compelled to load 
 it into the cars, so that they could 
 not sell it; that would give him a bet- 
 ter opportunity. He wanted an advan- 
 tage over the other operators in sell- 
 ing his coal. We are all selfish in this 
 world, gentlemen, to a greater or less 
 extent, and while that man may have 
 thought he would get an advantage 
 over us if we did not get the privilege 
 of throwing this bug dust back, I will 
 wager that that matter cost him five 
 hundred dollars, if not more, last year 
 Ir the price he got for his screenings. 
 
 MR. BENT:— One of these gentlemen 
 Eaid I did not know what my interests 
 
86 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 were when I would not sign a petition 
 to have the machine differential done 
 away with altoerether. Mr. Donk op- 
 posed it ^t the time, but he has ex- 
 perienced a change of heart, and I 
 think the other gentleman would If he 
 has put jn a machine. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I would like to call 
 attention to the contract in the Indiana 
 coal block district. The loader agrees 
 to keep the bug dust and draw the slate 
 back 14 feet from the working face. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What Is the bug 
 dust there? Is it coal? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It does not say what 
 it is. The chances are it is about the 
 same as It Is in our district — a mixture. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Did you ever know the 
 Indiana block coal miners to give up 
 anything? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I never knew them 
 to have anything much to give up. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — They are worse than 
 you claim we are. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You know they 
 don't have machines In more than one 
 cr two of the mines' in the block cool 
 district. It is a very small considera- 
 tion in the Indiana block coal field. I 
 know they have a few machines there 
 —probably half as many as we have 
 in the C. & A. sub-district. You mine 
 more machine coal in your mfne at 
 Virden than they do In the entire block 
 coal field of Indiana. 
 
 I think both the operators and miners 
 cf Illinois know there is no one in 
 America who favors the run-of-mlne 
 system more than I do. I believe it 
 tc be the only honest, fair method t>t 
 paying a miner for his work. You 
 know also from repeated declarations 
 I have made that I favor the very 
 best grade of coal possible for a miner 
 to produce. I believe it to be for the 
 Interest of both the miners and the 
 operators that the best grade of coal 
 should be produced; but I do not be- 
 lieve, in view of the declaration made 
 Ir behalf of the Illinois Coal Operators' 
 Association this morning, that you can 
 consistently ask us to depart from a 
 well established rule in this state, and 
 reduce the cost of production and re- 
 duce the earnings of the men. Mr. 
 Taylor said this morning that he was 
 speaking for the Illinois Coal Operators' 
 Association, and that they would not 
 agree to one condition that would in- 
 crease the cost of production to the 
 operators. Now you come here and ask 
 u.s to depart from a well established 
 lule and reduce the cost of production 
 and reduce the earnings of the miners. 
 I: may be that in a day a miner will 
 earn as much money as if he throws 
 the bug dust back, but he would per- 
 form more work to earn the Imoney. 
 I believe the miners should be paid for 
 the buE dust, but I don't believe he 
 should be paid if it is clay. I believe 
 (he clay should be separated from the 
 coal; but the bug dust is part of the 
 vein. It is not *he miners' fault that 
 the machine cuts it fine. We don't 
 
 care particularly that you have ma- 
 chines in the mines, and If you do 
 put in a class of machines that will 
 cut your coal into bug dust we should 
 not be obliged to bear the expense of 
 throwing it back in the gob without 
 
 ^MR. MOORSHEAD:— President Mit- 
 chell is mistaken when he says It 
 is a well established rule in the state 
 of Illinois to load out the bug dust. 
 It is not an established rule. In sonie 
 mines they do it and in some mines 
 they do not. There are several mines 
 in the state of Illinois where the miners 
 do throw it back, and the operators 
 load it out, but there are only a few 
 where the miners persist in loading It 
 out with the run-of-mine coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Then has it not 
 been a well established rule to load It 
 at the mines that are now complain- 
 ing? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— No; for the 
 reason that we have been contending 
 against it. I have contended against 
 it ever since we have run machinery 
 at Divernon. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — The statement 
 was made on the floor by Mr. Cahill 
 snd not contradicted by you, that a 
 year ago you said you didn't care if 
 they loaded, so that they distributed 
 it among all the cars. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— He is mis- 
 taken. I was contending' against their 
 loading it out separately and dumping 
 it over the screenings, and the scales 
 could not take care of it. That was 
 simply a makeshift matter to better 
 our condition temporarily. At the 
 punching machine mines they do not 
 attempt to load out all the cuttings. 
 They throw everything back into the 
 gob except the lump coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is because 
 it is mixed with clay. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— You can not 
 tell if you are at the face whethe*- it 
 1.1 clay or cuttings. That is the one 
 ground on which they are unable to 
 keep the screenings clean, because they 
 can not see the clay. The dust ad- 
 heres to the clay and makes it look 
 like coal. One of the miners in speak- 
 ing of the Gartside mine and the lower 
 bench matter stated that in a vein 
 three feet ten Inches the miners throw 
 the cuttings back into the gob. Here 
 is an 8%-foot seam, and I think at 
 Virden it runs 7% feet, and still con- 
 tending on that high mining rate to 
 put something into the ooal that will 
 make it less marketable. Mr. Mitchell 
 says he wants a good run-of-mlne coal, 
 and then 'asks us to allow the miners 
 to put those cuttings into the coal. 
 That is not a proper conclusion to 
 reach. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It is not proper 
 to say that the miner does not do any- 
 thing in the production of it. The en- 
 tire machine price is divided among 
 the loaders, the runners and the help- 
 ers; they are partners in the production 
 
APTBRNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 87 
 
 of the coal. Because the man who 
 happens to load the coal does nothing 
 to produce the bug dust is no reason 
 why he should not share in the profit 
 from it, because his partners do the 
 labor to produce the bug dust, arid they 
 divide among them as partners the 
 entire product of the run. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — They get 
 their pay from the coal after it is shot 
 down by the miners. It is our machines 
 that produce the bug dust. 
 
 MR. E/ONK:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Mitchell a question. Suppose he was 
 an operator, how would he -figure out 
 that it would be particularly to the in- 
 terest of the machine runner to run in 
 the fire clay rather than to run in the 
 coal? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I believe it would 
 not be to his interest at all. 
 
 MR. DONK: — If you were operating 
 the mine, would it be to your Interest 
 to mine in the coal? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tes; because I 
 don't believe the machines will cut in 
 the clay. 
 
 MR. DONK:— I find very frequently 
 that they can cut in the clay, but 
 they don't do it. If I leave it in the 
 shape it is it is a premium to them not 
 to cut in the clay. If they will mine in 
 the clay the machine runner and loader 
 will get the price for that coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 again call attention to a statement 
 made by Mr. Cahill which v/as not 
 contradicted. He said that at some 
 mines that , employed men to load out 
 this bug dust for $2.10 a day; that iii 
 loading out a run it has amounted to 
 $10.50. If they were paid at the rate 
 of 35 cents a ton it would amount to 
 ?17.B0, and the operator was saving 
 $7.50. Then he spoke of Mr. Moores- 
 head's agreement with the miners to 
 distribute it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —Mr. ' Cahill's 
 statement was not contradicted for the 
 simple reason that the operator who is 
 charged with that is not here. I don't 
 know what the Staunton Coal Com- 
 pany is doing, and insofar as a pro- 
 test I made at that time is concerned, 
 it was against the loading out of the 
 tug dust separately, sending it out 
 without any other coal and dumping it 
 on our screens and letting it go down 
 on the lump coal. We merely made an 
 arrangement so that the men, so long 
 as they had to load it would load it 
 cut in a way that our screens could 
 take care of It. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Mr. Moorshead said 
 nothing about loading the bug dust 
 out; he only objected to the quantity. 
 He objected to its' coming out in one 
 car, and the agreement with myself, 
 the sub-district president, and the com- 
 mittee from the Divemon mine was 
 that the men should distribute that 
 bug dust equally among all the cars. 
 Mr. Moorshead said they wiould not 
 do it. I told him if they continued 
 
 loading this bug dust all in one car that 
 he could discharge them. 
 
 In regard to President Mitchell's re- 
 mark about the Staunton mine, it cost 
 the mines on our road $21 to load out 
 the same amount of bug dust they 
 loaded out at Staunton for $10.50. The 
 whole matter looks tO' me like a subter- 
 fuge to get the day men to dump it out 
 at a less cost to the operator. I can 
 see no others reason for it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —It doesn't 
 make any difterence whether I object- 
 ed or not in that meeting in Springfield 
 in the lobby of the Leland Hotel about 
 the loading of the ,bug dust by the 
 miners or not. There was only one 
 question up at this time, and that was 
 the loading out of the cuttings sepa- 
 rately, so that our screens could not 
 take care of it. In my own mind I pro- 
 tested against the loading out of the 
 bug dust by the miners, and simply 
 because I didn't protest at that time 
 does not signify by any means that 
 I didn't want to protest. I might just 
 as well say that in '97 you had no right 
 to a unien, for the simple reason that 
 you had not said anything' ajfjout It for 
 several years prior to th, ■t time. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— At the time we were 
 discussing this bug dust question in 
 the little meeting wef had in the lobby 
 of the Leland Hotel while the scale 
 committee of that convention was do- 
 ing business up over our heads, you 
 were a member of the scale committee 
 and you never said one ;wora to It about 
 the bug dust at that time. Tou never 
 protested against it in any manner or 
 form. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —Simply be- 
 cause I didn't do it then is no reason 
 why I should not do it now, not a par- 
 ticle. I understood at that time that 
 we could take it up in the sub-district 
 and handle it. I expected to be able 
 to convince my own m,iners that it 
 was wrong, but I have been unable to 
 do either. Mr. Justl knows that I have 
 protested against it right along. For 
 more than a year I urged that the mat- 
 ter be taken up and disposed of. Tour 
 position is wrong and you should not 
 try to justify it. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Tou say you have 
 protested to Mr. Justi. Why did you 
 refer to him and not bring it up In the 
 convention? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I will tell you 
 why — because we have been over- 
 whelmed with other things to be taken 
 up before your convention. It Is no 
 wonder we forget something. 
 
 MR. DONK:— I think that question 
 did come up lasf year at the Spring- 
 field state meeting. Be that as it jnay, 
 I think it is not fair for Mr. Cahill to 
 make a point on that. The viuestlon is: 
 Is there any merit in what we are ask- 
 ing for now? If the facts warrant that 
 this thing should be remedied, the 
 remedy should be applied. As I stated 
 before, the miners are as much inter- 
 
88 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 estied In this question as the operators. 
 Those who are operating chain ma- 
 chines are more interested than the 
 others. There are only a very few who 
 are making any objection. I would like 
 to know if the position we are taking 
 is a correct one or not. It certainly de- 
 teriorates the quality of the mine-run 
 coal to allow these cuttings to go in 
 with it. Then when you don't make 
 mine-run coal and you do mEuke clean 
 lump coal, you Increase the amount of 
 fine coal, and the fine coal is of a less 
 marketable quality. If you are inter- 
 ested in trying to maintain the mine- 
 run system, why not let us go to work 
 and do it right. Let us try to noaJte 
 that article as marketable as we san. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If the sole pur- 
 pose is to make a better grade of coal, 
 and we are going to get together on 
 that, why don't the operators every- 
 where ask us to throw back the fine 
 coal, no matter under what system it 
 is mined?- 'Would it not be as just for 
 those who operate veins that are shot 
 on the solid to ask the miners to throw 
 back all the coal that is not market- 
 able? There would be the same degree 
 of justice in that. I am in favor of 
 doing something that would reduce the 
 percentage of screenings if it can be 
 done without reducing the earning 
 power of the miners, and I don't think 
 it is fair for a machine mine operator 
 to be singled out, and to ask that their 
 fine coal be thrown back. Everyone 
 knows this is a profitable system of 
 mining, that there is a larger profit 
 to the operator in putting chain ma- 
 chines in his mines than in any other 
 machines. The chain machine does 
 more work than the other, and the 
 differential fully compensates him for 
 the equipment of his mines with that 
 class of machinery. You have an ad- 
 vantage now over any other system of 
 mining in the state of Illinois. 
 
 MR. DONK:— Tou are wrong. The 
 chain machine is not being operated 
 to better advantage to the operator 
 than any other machine or system. 
 Tou may ask why we operate the ma- 
 chines. For myself I will say I spent 
 so much money to put them in there 
 that I don't feel like dumping them in 
 the scrap pile tomorrow or next week. 
 I do not know all the conditions under 
 ground of the different properties that 
 are being operated, but in the one mine 
 where we operate this chain machine 
 the conditions are euch that it would 
 be quite dangerous to the property and 
 to the lives of the men working there 
 to allow the cuttings to remain. I 
 think the officers of the organization 
 will besLr me out in this. I want this 
 bug dust removed for the safety of the 
 mine even if it costs me money to have 
 it done. If there was no danger in 
 leaving this in the gob I would be in 
 favor of leaving it there, and would not 
 go to the expense of taking it out. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— On the same 
 relative pick mine rate, Mr. Mitchell, 
 
 how much of a machine mine differ- 
 ential has Ohio got? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— On the run-of- 
 mine basis? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think some- 
 where around 16 cents. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — Is it 19.2 
 C6nts ^ 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It may be; I 
 don't know the exact figures. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— And the gen- 
 tlemen operating these mines have 
 their men members of your organiza- 
 tion? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Thtey have 
 something over 19 cents o_ a differen- 
 tial and we hft'/e 7 cents on the same 
 pick mining rate. What do they do 
 with the bug dust in the Hocking Val- 
 ley? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think the^y load 
 it. I can not remember all the details 
 of mining in every district. You re- 
 member the time the Hocking Valley 
 operators would not go into the Pitts- 
 burg convention. They held out and 
 threatened to strike. They sent to me 
 and offered to start their mines if we 
 would give them the Pittsburg run-of- 
 mine prices. . "We refused. They then 
 asked if we would allow the miners to 
 throw the bug dust back, apd we re- 
 fused. I don't think the Hocking Val- 
 ley miners would do that without let- 
 ting me know about it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— They do it at 
 the convenience of the operators, and 
 your organization, although holding us 
 to a relative pick mine rate with 
 them, allows them 12 cents additional 
 differential on machine mining as 
 against the state of Illinois. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You are not 
 stating it all. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- Then I will 
 say 16 cents and accept your state- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You are only 
 selecting one part of the cohditions 
 here and there. You know they pay 
 57 cents and something over for run- 
 of-mine coal there. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— WTisJt is th6 
 thickness of the coal? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It sometimes 
 runs up to a height of 11 feet, and 
 down as low as five feet for the Hock- 
 ing Valley. Their average vein in the 
 Hocking Valley is thicker than the 
 average vein in Illinois. Then the min- 
 ers can load out 150 pounds of slate in 
 their coal and not be docked for it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't know 
 what would happen to your run-of- 
 mine system or to the state of Illinois 
 either if you loaded out 150 pounds. I 
 have one complaint where out of a car 
 of five-inch lump coal there were four 
 tons of impurities taken out of it, and 
 it was a 24- ton car at that. It was up 
 in Iowa and I had to send one of my 
 men up there. They turned it over to 
 a farmer who said he liked the stuff 
 
Afternoon Session, March 3. 
 
 because he made a bam floor out of it. 
 MR. MITCHEn:iL:— I am going to be 
 consistent if I can be, and I am not 
 going to come here and say to the oper- 
 ators that this is relative between the 
 states and then go back to Ohio and 
 say something to the contrary. I don't 
 believe the machine differential in Illi- 
 nois is fair as compared with those 
 states. But I do say 7 cents is enough, 
 and I believe the same number of 
 cents Is enough in other states. 
 We have not been able to en- 
 force the same machine mining differ- 
 ential there, but it has not been my 
 fault, and has not been the fault of the 
 Illinois miners either. You know why 
 we haven't got it there. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Why? 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not going to 
 ■ tell you why. You know. You seenied 
 to know a great deal about it when 
 you were in Columbus. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't know 
 why you can not control Ohio, but I do 
 know why you can not control Penn- 
 sylvania. Did you ever operate an elec- 
 trical machine mine? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- No, Mr. Moors- 
 head, I never was fortunate enough to 
 operate any kind of a mine? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Then hiow do 
 you know 7 cents is sufficient? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You don't need 
 to own a mine to be able to conclude 
 that a certain price is enough for any- 
 thing. I don't know how much it cost 
 to make this table. I would know if It 
 was on sale that if a factory was turn- 
 ing them out for $2 apiece, that factory 
 would not contlnug in business unless 
 it was> paying them. I know your ma- 
 chines are paying, for new mines are 
 being equipped with machinery. You 
 know the differential is 7 cents, and 
 that it is going to be 7 cents. I don't 
 think you or any operator lack busi- 
 ness capacity sufficiently to permit you 
 to equip your mines with machinery 
 unless It is profitable for you to do so. 
 I have that faith in the good business 
 judgment of Illinois coal operators. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— It is not a 
 profitable business. I will say further 
 that the only reason why we ever 
 equipped the Dlvernon mine with elec- 
 trical miachinery was because we did 
 believe that in time the L.ilted Mine 
 Workers would grant to us that which 
 we believe we are entitled to. I did 
 not think that would attempt to fsLsten 
 th* 7 cents differential on the state of 
 Illinois. We believe the ti-ie will come 
 when we will get what we are 
 entitled to. if will come by some 
 means. The operators of the state of 
 Illinois are in favor of an organization, 
 but not one on the present plan. 
 
 MR. RYAN;— I am satisfied that the 
 feven-ctnt differential is right. I got 
 the information from an Illinois oper- 
 ator, who said he would not fight the 
 diiferential as long as It was profitable. 
 He is not present; if he was I would 
 name him. 
 
 MR. WAN'tLING:— I don't think the 
 information should have been given 
 before the convention. 
 
 MR. RYAN;— The question was ask- 
 ed, and I want to let you know some 
 of the reasons why we feel as we do 
 about that seven-cent differential. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Just to chip in a little 
 ir ^thls discussion, the amount of coal 
 that was produced by machines in the 
 state of Illinois, from the statistics of 
 the state for the year ending June 30, 
 1899, was 26 per cent, for the following 
 year 22.2 per cent and from the ad- 
 vance sheets for the year ending June 
 3. 1901, 21.7 per cent, showing a steady 
 decrease from 1899. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Where did you 
 get those figures? 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Those are the figures 
 of the state labor bureau. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The operators said 
 those figures were not reliable. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We will be glad 
 to accept even those figures. If you 
 will agree to give us the prices we are 
 entitled to for your pick mined coal, if 
 that, is right. We are tentltled to a 
 mining rate based on 40 per cent of 
 screening's. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- We have 46 
 per cent. 
 
 MR. MI'TCHELL:- 1 beg your par- 
 don, Mr. Cutts, I did not tinderstand 
 ■what your figures were for. Of course 
 those figures might convey an impres- 
 sion entirely different if given in con- 
 nection with the entire output. The 
 percentage of machine mined coal in 
 proportion to the entire output of coal, 
 the entire tonnage, has increased, ex- 
 cept in the Danville district where they 
 abandoned the machines, which reduc- 
 ed the average. The Danville district 
 abandoned machines, not because of 
 the small differential, because they had 
 the Indiana differential; but because 'of 
 the nature of their coal, the nature of 
 their roof, which made machine mining 
 unprofitable there. Is not that right. 
 Mr. Keefer? 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— Partially so. Many 
 opinions have been expressed as to 
 what caused the abandoning of the ma- 
 chines in the Danville district. I 
 should not like to commit the other 
 operators in my district as to whethe^ 
 that did or did not cause the 
 abandonment of the machines. I have 
 my own opinion, but as long as it does 
 not seem necessary to give it, I prefer 
 not to do so. 
 
 MR. TOPHAM: — The reason the ma- 
 chines were abandoned was beOause it 
 was impossible for them to mine the 
 ccal 'on' account of the sulphur. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— I woiuld like to say 
 that is the opinion of our district presi- 
 dent. After all it is a matter tof opin- 
 ion largely. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Just to put in another 
 little sprag in this wheel, I wO'Uld like 
 to Invite attention to the (fact that, 
 notwithstanding the withdrawal of the 
 Danville district and the consequent 
 
90 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, march o. 
 
 less number of mines that are operatmg 
 machines, the same figures show an in- 
 crease of 34 machines runnirtg *in the 
 state, but on an increase of 1,500,000 
 tons the machine-mined ooal increased 
 less than 200,000 tons. 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Bent the operators voted Yes, the 
 miners voted No, and it was lost.) 
 
 The fifth resolution of the present 
 agreement was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that there be 
 inserted, before clause (b) and after 
 clause (a) of section just read, the fol- 
 lowing; 
 
 "At any mine where a majority of 
 the miners so desire, they may select 
 and pay their own shot firers, provided 
 that It shall not shorten their working 
 hours. But under no circumstances 
 shall the operator be required to hire 
 or pay any shot firers." It is part of 
 paragraph (a) of the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the amendment was 
 lost.) 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the fifth 
 resolution as read the operators voted 
 Yes, the miners voted No, and it was 
 lost.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I think the only way 
 this committee can ever ,do business 
 is by voting for the resolutions as they 
 come up, or discussing them. If we 
 vote propositions down without dis- 
 cussing them, we might as well not 
 take them up. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you a recon- 
 sideration of the motion just voted 
 down. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: —Resolution No. 5, 
 clauses (a) and (b) are now before the 
 committee. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— The operators believe 
 we should offer some reasons for voting 
 against this resolution. I am opposed 
 to the first paragraph, from the fact 
 that the actions of some of the opera- 
 tors during the past year led us to be- 
 lieve they had taken advantage of this 
 clause, and have discharged men and 
 kept them out of work for weeks at a 
 time. We believed at the time that they 
 had no right to do this, but they did it. 
 No doubt the cases were investigated, 
 and the commissioner of the Illinois 
 Operators' Association agrees that they 
 have a righit to discharge them, and 
 they do it. In Collinsville we had a 
 case where it was charged the miner 
 and disturbed some timber after firing 
 a shot, and the roof fell in. We found 
 in clause 16, paragraph (b) t;he follow- 
 ing: "If by reckless or improper shoot- 
 ing of the coal in room and pillar mines, 
 the mine props or other timber shall 
 be disturbed or unnecessary falls result, 
 the miner whose fault has occasioned 
 such damage shall repair the same 
 without compensation." Under this 
 clause we claim the company should 
 have offered the man a chance to repair 
 the damage. That was all the com- 
 pany could expect; that was all we 
 
 expected from the company. But It 
 was not done. The company held that 
 the fifth resoluition should be applied 
 and the man was discharged without 
 investigation. We don't believe that 
 either of these sections, the fifth or the 
 sixteenth, should become part of the 
 agreement this time. 
 
 MR TAYLOR:— I don't see how Mr. 
 Hefti or anybody else expects to for- 
 mulate a contract Ithat will cover every 
 single case in the state of Illinois. This 
 provision in the contract has caused 
 less trouble than almost any other pro- 
 vision in the agreement. It says Ithat 
 the work shall be done in a workman- 
 like manner within the state law. The 
 second part is simply meant to see that 
 you carry out what you prolmse to do. 
 You promise when you are on the mine- 
 run basis to give us as good coal as 
 when you were on a screened lump 
 basis. That is the basis of your agree- 
 ment. I believe the general working 
 of that clause has been fair to both 
 the miners and the operators. I be- 
 lieve it is the spirit of this agreement 
 that you should perform your work In ■ 
 a workmanlike manner and give us a 
 good quality of coal. If any oiierator 
 violates that clause you have a right 
 to make a grievance of it, and we will 
 assist the miners if we find he has vio- 
 lated it. We don't want to sustain any 
 operator in violating the agreement. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— I would 
 like to ask Mr. Taylor how he defines 
 the state law that is to be applied to 
 this section? What does the sta/te min- 
 ing law say In regard to the blasting 
 of coal? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Do you want the 
 state mining law regarding the blast- 
 ing of coal read? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Yes. sir. 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Scroggs will 
 read it. The second part of this clause 
 i.c Identical with the miners' scale. The 
 only difference is in the first part. 
 
 Secretary Scroggs read sections 16 and 
 17 of the state mining law. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— I understand the 
 miner Mr. Hefti has referred to was 
 discharged because he put shots up in 
 the roof. 
 MR. HEFTI:— It was not In the roof. 
 MR. SCROGGS:— It was nearer the 
 roof than necessary. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— No investigation of 
 that was made. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— It was stated at the 
 time that they could not determine that 
 it had been done in that particular 
 case, but that the young man Ijad re- 
 peatedly done it. It was testified to by 
 a number of miners, and it was ad- 
 mitted by Mr. Barlow himself. He ad- 
 mitted that he had drilled his holes 
 too high, and when his attention was 
 called to it by the superintendent he 
 obeyed the Instructions, but obeyed 
 them only for a time. He repeated the 
 offense, and as a result of his failure 
 to carry out the Instructions of the 
 superintendent, this fall of rock ensued. 
 
Aftkrnoon Session, March 3. 
 
 91 
 
 The testimony that was given in the 
 ir.vestlgation we held in Collinsville 
 showed this to be a reasonable con- 
 cl^slon. If he had repeatedly violated 
 the instructions of his superintendent 
 and had done what was contrary to the 
 rules of g-ood mining— and admitted 
 himself that he had so offended— I 
 think the superintendent had a perfect 
 right to discharge him. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- 1, on 'the other 
 hand, took the position that if the man 
 was guilty of violating any section -of 
 the agreement, Violated the one wbich 
 says, "If a miner shall fail to timber 
 and properly care for his working 
 place, and such failure shaJl entail falls 
 of rock, slate and the Jike, or if by 
 reckless or improper shooting 'of the 
 coal in room and pillar mines, the mine 
 props or other timber shall be disturb- 
 ed, or unnecesary falls result, the miner 
 whose fault has occasioned such dam- 
 age shall repair the same without com- 
 pensation." 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- 1 rise to a point of 
 order. "We are not trying the man at 
 Connellville. "We have a clause here 
 that has worked all right. I don't 
 think the miner.s would vote to wil- 
 fully violate the state mining law. I 
 know the operators are going to vote 
 against it. As the second clause is in 
 your own scale, I don't see why you 
 want to go on record as opposing the 
 state law. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— What we claim is 
 ' that the operators abuse this clause 
 and are likely to abuse it. Whenever 
 a shot is put in that does not please 
 the mine manager he discharges the 
 man for shooting out timber. If the 
 man was putting in a blast that would 
 endanger the life of the men, or would 
 be apt to destroy the operator's prop- 
 erty, and the mine manager told him 
 not to put it in, and he persisted in 
 putting it in, he should be discharged. 
 The operators, however, have taken- 
 advantage of this clause to get rid of 
 a man when they could not get rid of 
 him under the sixteenth clause, where 
 his case should be taken up. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— While one man may 
 have been dealt with toO' harshly on 
 the miner's side, how many hundred 
 cases can we point out on the other 
 side where the men should have been 
 discharged, but were not. I believe Mr. 
 Mitchell when he states that they want 
 to give us good coal. I also believe his 
 contention is good that they want to 
 save life and limb. I believe Mr. Heftl 
 and Mr. Reynolds wish this too. Is 
 there a man in the mines better able 
 to judge about the shots than the mine 
 manager? If every man In the mine 
 is a judge of shots and is going to 
 continue to judge of them, you may 
 expect to have more lives lost than 
 ever, although the number of lives lost 
 has been increasing for a few years 
 past. Often you can go down in the 
 mines in our state and see miners in 
 a small vein, and even in a large vein. 
 
 with shots that are unreasonable. If a 
 miner comes and drills in a shot five 
 and a half feet deep, and then comes 
 across it again with another shot, 
 knowing that the first one won't shoot 
 it, and the coal goes down the room, 
 what may we expect? May we expect 
 to get good coal or save life where 
 you are putting in three-fourths of a 
 keg of powder in two shots? I don't 
 believe we can be too stringent In these 
 matters. This thing of bringing up one 
 man's case here to stop us fromi mak- 
 ing a contract Is all wrong. We should 
 take the stand that we expect to have 
 our shots fired In a workmanlike man- 
 ner. When you go into a man's room 
 and find that he has taken a shot that 
 has blown the coal down fifty or sixty 
 feet, and has smashed out all of his 
 props, and has endangered other peo- 
 ple's lives. It is time every practical 
 miner in the state should agree to help 
 the operators to make tules to stop 
 that. If I had the fixing of this clause 
 I would make it more stringent. I 
 would wish first to save life. I think 
 this should come before prices or any- 
 thing else. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— In the history of 
 mining did you ever know when the 
 miners were expected to prepare and 
 shoot their blasts, according to the di- 
 rection of the mine manager? Is the 
 miner not expected tO' use his best 
 judgment about it? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The system of min- 
 ing in the state of Illinois has changed 
 so much that It needs something to 
 stop the way powder is being used. 
 Hasn't It been the intent of laws in all 
 countries to stop the loss of life by re- 
 ducing the use of powder? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I suppose that is 
 so. There are many other ways, how- 
 ever, in which they have tried to reduce 
 the death rate from accidents in the 
 mines, and the principal means has 
 been the effort to keep a good current 
 of air In the mines, and keeping the 
 gas out of the mines. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Does the principal 
 of unionism mean to increase the safety 
 of people in the mine? If It does not, 
 you are in a bad state. I, for one, want 
 to see a time when this convention in 
 the state of Illinois will get up and 
 have a law passed where only a certain 
 number of pounds of powder shall go 
 into a shot. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- You will have to 
 change the system of mining alto- 
 gether. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— In the case to which 
 Mr. Hefti and Mr. Reynolds refers, the 
 complaint was that the young man did 
 not use hi.s best judgment. He him- 
 self admitted that he had gotten Into 
 the habit of placing his shots in this 
 manner; that he was thoughtless and 
 would drill his holes too high, and when 
 his attention was called to it he would , 
 correct it. But the offense was repeat- 
 ed until warning was given him, and 
 when this occurrence of which mention 
 
92 
 
 Afternoon Sbssion, March 3. 
 
 has been made took place the young 
 man was discharg-ed, Then an appeal 
 wa,s taken. I think the discharge was 
 within the provisions of Our state 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Is it not a fact 
 that the very shot In question was 
 made under the direction of the night 
 foreman ? The night foreman went into 
 his room and found him drilling his 
 hole, and objected to the way he was 
 doing it. He marked out a place for 
 him to drill it, and the young man 
 drilled it according to his directions 
 and shot out the timber, which Was 
 nit>t an unusual thing there or in any 
 other mine. He was discharged, how- 
 ever, but it was for shooting down his 
 place, not for disobeying the mine 
 manager. I asked the mine manager 
 why he discharged the young man, and 
 he said he discharged him for shooting 
 down the timbers. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Possibly you are right. 
 This happened some time ago. I only 
 know that the evidence brought out 
 the fact that the young man had re- 
 peatedly disregarded the instructions 
 of the superintendent and did not use 
 his best judgment. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— We are .not ob- 
 jecting to the clause itself, we are ob- 
 jecting to the abuse of it. We object 
 to the practice of discharging men un- 
 der this clause. 
 
 MR. KBEFER:— It seems to me that 
 if there is only one case brought up, and 
 there are thirty thousand miners in 
 the state of Illinois, there is only about 
 one chance in seven million for trouble 
 over this clause. Mr. Taylor has said 
 that it is impossible to legislate against 
 the possible coming up of every case, 
 and since only this one case has come 
 up there is no reason why the clause 
 should not be re-enacted. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I am opposed to this 
 clause. The parties here who say they 
 want coal produced according to the 
 provisions of the state mining law are 
 the first ones to violate it. The clause 
 that has been read states that the mine 
 manager shall have jurisdiction of the 
 placing of the holes and the placing of 
 the explosives. If we wanted to en- 
 force that we would hear a howl from 
 all over the state. They would need 
 about five mine managers for every 
 mine. The only way they have used that 
 clause in my district is this: When 
 they do not want a man, for any rea- 
 son, and when that man comes to a 
 piece of bad turn they will say to him, 
 "Take this place up or take your tools 
 out." They don't Intend to live up to 
 the laws themselves. The section says 
 that where the roof is bad before suc- 
 cessive shots are fired we must wait 
 until the smoke has cleared away and 
 the place is properly secured. They 
 use that for a club against us. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Morris a question. Didn't the mine 
 manager take the position he did under 
 
 the 16th clause, not under the one in 
 discussion? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— They take them up 
 under both. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Was the mine manager 
 there and did he select the place for 
 the shbt? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— No. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then they had a right 
 to take it, up under > this clause. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Morris, in the case he refers to, 
 wTiat the pit committee did. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— The pit committee 
 and the district president and myself 
 demanded compensation for the man 
 for cleaning up the slate, and we got 
 it, and didn't allow him to be dis- 
 charged. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is exactly 
 what every officer in the state of Illi- 
 nois would do, and would have a right 
 to do, under this section. Any agree- 
 ment we make is not going to repeal 
 the state law. We can make all the 
 agreements we please, and if they are 
 in violation of the state authority, that 
 authority will set them aside. 
 
 The operators' scale and ours agree 
 on section (b) of this resolution. We 
 have no section (a) in our agreement. 
 Section (a) provides that the coal must 
 be mined as provided for in the state 
 law. The intention of that is that if 
 it can be shown that the ni./ier persist- 
 ently violates tKe law he shall be dis- 
 charged. I want to go on record now 
 as saying that if any miner persistent- 
 ly and maliciously violates any clause 
 of our agreements, no one is a worse 
 enemy of the miners. For myself, I 
 am in favor at the adoption of the 
 clause as it is. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I am not. There is a 
 state law and we are amenable to it; 
 and I am not in favor of binding my- 
 self to anything that will allow them 
 to discharge me should I break the 
 laws of this state, when it leaves the 
 other parties unbound to carry out the 
 laws of the statei except as good citi- 
 zens. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If the pit com- 
 mittee and the mine foreman agree that 
 any miner has disregarded the agree- 
 ment, and they both agree that he shall 
 be discharged, that would be satisfac- 
 tory to you, would it not? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Certainly. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— This provides 
 that that shall be done. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't deny that; 
 but I am opposed to putting something 
 in here that is all one-sided. Why not 
 have this section state that if the mjne 
 manager persistently breaks the law 
 he shall he discharged? What Is sauce 
 for the goose is sauce for the gander. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— When Barlow was dis- 
 charged the company did not attempt 
 to show that he had persistentljr violat- 
 ed the letter or the spirit of the state 
 mining law: yet they held they had a 
 right to discharge him under that law, 
 and they did do so. 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 93 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— This clause pro- 
 vides that if the miner persistently 
 violates the state law he shall be dis- 
 charged. We have a clause in the state 
 law which provides that if the mine 
 manager violafes the law he shall not 
 only he discharged, but it provides that 
 his certificate shall be revoked and he 
 be put out of business. The law is 
 more stringent on the mine managers 
 than on the miners. There is nothing 
 in the state law that p vides a pun- 
 ishment for the miner. . i makes it 
 "obligatory upon the inspector to see 
 that this law is carried oui. 
 
 MR. HEFTl:— Is it fair that the only 
 punishment that shall be inflicted is 
 the punishment provided for under the 
 state laws? The state mining- law 
 does not say the miner shall T)e dis- 
 charged. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— He can only dis- 
 charge the miner. The operators wish- 
 ed to quote the law last year in the 
 committee, and the miners took the 
 ground that the mine managers should 
 only do this in accordance with the 
 state mining law. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't agree with 
 the operators that the mine manager is 
 the best judge of where the miners 
 shall place their shots. Men will start 
 to work in the mines who are not 
 skilled miners. They are liable to in- 
 jure themselves, or the other men work- 
 ing in the mine, by misplacing shots. 
 I believe in such cases the mine mana- 
 ger should direct the placing of shots. 
 That is what the law contemplated 
 when it was passed. If this section of 
 the agreement contemplated placing 
 the full power in the hands of a mine 
 foreman cr superintendent to discharge 
 men indiscriminately because they be- 
 lieved the men were careless or malic- 
 ious, I would oppose it; but as long as 
 they have to demonstrate to our pit 
 committees that the men are persist- 
 ently violating the law, I contend that 
 we do not lose protection under this 
 section. It gives protection to the good 
 miners, to the men who know how and 
 where to place their shots. We cannot 
 make an agreement that will obviate 
 aJl the eontentions that will arise in 
 the state of Illinois; and if we have 
 been able to adopt a sectlcm that wjU 
 obviate all serious objections except 
 one, we have done very well. The sec- 
 tion says, "If it can be shown," and 
 they must show this to the pit commit- 
 tee before he can be discharged. Where 
 is there a pit committee in Illinois that 
 will allow a man to be discharged with- 
 out this being shown. I don't know of 
 any, and If there are some they had 
 better change them. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I have very little 
 to sa-y in regard to this matter. Presi- 
 dent Mitchell has expressed my vipws 
 exactly in regard to it. So far as I 
 am concerned, the scale committee who 
 have gotten up this section here are 
 the people who must take up the flglu 
 and fight it. I don't propose to flght 
 
 -for anything that is against my con- 
 victions. I am doing the voting for 
 the miners, and I don't propose to vote 
 Until they do this. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask if any attempt will be made to dis- 
 charge men by the operators, except 
 under the interpretation placed upon 
 the law by President Russell and my- 
 self, that it means they must show that 
 a man has persistently violated this 
 section. They will have to show this 
 to the pit committee, or the case can 
 be carried up. I want to know wheth- 
 er the operators reserve the right to 
 be the sole judges? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— They do not. I will 
 say that for the operators. Tour con- 
 struction is our construction. 
 
 MR. POtrCHER:— That clause has 
 just licensed the mine manager in our 
 place to run our local. We have a bad 
 top in the mine, and he will always 
 pull out the agreement and say we 
 have done the work in an unworkman- 
 like manner, and this has cost our local 
 since last fall about $15U. tslveiy place 
 that comes in the mine manager will 
 call the committee to visit and investi- 
 gate. I was instructed to come here 
 and fight that clause. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Has not your 
 trouble arisen under the sixteenth 
 clause, and not under this clause? I 
 think the most of our objections have 
 been to the sixteenth clause. This has 
 wotked the hardship on the men. 
 
 MR. BOTCE: — There is one thing 
 about this that seerns queer to me. On 
 the one hand the operators want the 
 state mining law lived up to, and they 
 want, if a miner violates it, to place 
 the case in the hands of the two par- 
 ties to this agreement. On the other 
 hand, when the mine manager violates 
 the state law, they don't want to place 
 it in the hands of the two parties, but 
 place it in the law. Why don't you 
 treat both sides alike? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Whenever the 
 mine manager does anything contrary 
 to the views of the pit committee or the 
 miners working in that mine, they 
 have a right to appeal, and should ap- 
 peal, and should the miner be laid off 
 unjustly they have a right to compen- 
 sation for it. Does not other clauses 
 in the present agreement provide pen- 
 alties for any violation of the contract 
 by the company? That means a vio- 
 lation of the contract by the mine 
 manager, the way I understand it, at 
 least. 
 
 MR. BOTCE: — Tet you want to make 
 a part of this contract that will com- 
 pel the miner to live up to the state 
 law. Toii want to have it so that his 
 case is put in the hands of the two 
 parties to judge him and punish him; 
 but whenever the mine manager vio- 
 lates the agreement or the state law, 
 you don't propose to take It Into the 
 hands of the two parties, but you let 
 the law take its cqursp. 
 
94 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 3. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The gentleman is 
 entirely wrong in his statement of the 
 case. We claim the right under the 
 state mining law to discharge that 
 man; but you claim the right, on the 
 .other hand, to protect your members, 
 unless we can prove to your commit- 
 tee and officers that they have violated 
 the state law. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— They seem to put 
 great stress on that part of the clause 
 where a miner gets compensation for 
 laying idle when he has been discharg- 
 ed. How many cases have there ligen 
 in the state of Illinois in the past year 
 where a man had been discharged, 
 and it has been proved that he was 
 "wrongfully discharged, that he got 
 any compensation for the time he 
 was idle. The operator has alwsgys 
 been slick enough not to have that case 
 settled until the Ave days have ex- 
 pired. If this clause that we are dis- 
 cussing at the present time is adopted 
 we want to extend the period for the 
 investigation. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Do you under- 
 stand that if a man is discharged, and 
 more than five days have elapsed be- 
 fore he is reinstated, he shall not get 
 paid? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— No; but the operat- 
 ors do. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Do you under- 
 stand it in that way? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— No; but they inter- 
 pret it in that way. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If they do they 
 are violating the agreement. Even if 
 he has been idle for two weeks he is 
 entitled to the five days' compensation. 
 MR. PERRY: — Suppose they do pay 
 him for the five days he has been idle. 
 He still is several days short at the 
 end of the two weeks. My experience 
 has been that when a man has been 
 discharged he is lucky if he even has 
 a chance to prove his case within two 
 weeks, let alone five days. 
 
 MR. SCHUCK:— Barlow has been 
 laid off for five weeks. He has been 
 reinstated, but has not received a cent 
 of compensation. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I thinK it is neces- 
 sary to explain something about that 
 case. The case was not referred to me. 
 I think because a letter that was sent 
 did not reach me when it should, or I 
 might have taken the matter up with 
 Mr. Justi. "When I did get the state- 
 ment of the case in writing the con- 
 ventions were upon us, and have been 
 upon us since, so the matter has not 
 been settled. If it can be proved that 
 thisman was not in fs^ult his Ave days' 
 compensation must be paid; and I don't 
 think there will be no trouble about it, 
 once we get to the case. They have 
 come to me repeatedly at the conven- 
 tions and have asked why this case is 
 not settled. I could only say that it 
 "has not been taken up because we have 
 not had the time to do it. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— If there had been a 
 -question of doubt in favor of the man. 
 
 when the investigation was held in 
 Collinsville, I would not have hesitat- 
 ed one moment. I had no interest to 
 advance in deciding the matter as I 
 did. I honestly believe, in view of all 
 the testimony that was given, that the 
 man should have been discharged. I 
 did not think it was an d,ggravated 
 case. If either the young nian o'r the 
 officials had applied to me to make an 
 appeal to the company In his behalf, I 
 would have asked them, to reinstate 
 him but not to pay him. Instead o:^ 
 that they took the position that the 
 young man was entitled to five days' 
 pay. Instead of carrying on the in- 
 vestigation in the manner provided by 
 our agreement, the mine was thrown 
 idle. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— It is not fair for 
 him to make a statement of that kind 
 witnout my answering it. After we 
 had disagreed upon the question, I 
 asked Mr. Justi what was the next 
 step to take. I told him that Mr. Lu- 
 maghi had in the meantime reinstat- 
 ed the young man. Mr. Juoi.1 said that 
 the case was out of his hands. That 
 is where the case rests now. They as 
 good as admitted to me that they had 
 made a mistake. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I suggest that we drop 
 the Barlow case and take up the clause 
 of the agreement we are discussing. 
 (On the motion to adopt the resolu- 
 tion as read from the agreement of the 
 previous year, the operators voted 
 Yes). 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— If the operators will 
 withdraw their vote and defer further 
 consideration of this matter until to- 
 morrow they will oblige us. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It is not necessary to 
 withdraw the vote. The rec^T-d will 
 show the miners' vote deferred. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That will be satisfac- 
 tory to us. 
 
 The sixth resolution of the present 
 agreement was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 for the resolution Just read the sixth 
 clause in the operators' scale. (Sec- 
 onded). 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It would be use- 
 less, utterly useless, to even discuss 
 that. "We certainly will never accept 
 it; and I don't believe it is good policy 
 to go on and dlscuss' these sections 
 when we know they will not be accept- 
 ed by the miners. "We went over this 
 question very thoroughly last year. "We 
 made propositions to the operators 
 that if they would go out and draft a 
 section that would catch the fellow who 
 maliciously loaded the rock, the miners 
 would sign it. Now you come here 
 again and ask that the impurities be 
 weighed, and if a man sends up a piece 
 as big as a half dollar it should be put 
 on the pile, and when the pile accumu- 
 lates it shall be weighed and charged 
 to the men. You know that no coal 
 can be loaded absolutely clean. I be- 
 lieve the miners and operators should 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 3. 
 
 95 
 
 get together here and insert a clause 
 in that agreement that will provide 
 for a certain amount of impurities be- 
 fore the miner shall he docked; and 
 when it comes to leaving it absolutely 
 In the hands of the operator to say- 
 when a miner shall be docked, it is un- 
 just to ask it. You have representa- 
 tives around the mines, and if the op- 
 erators were there constantly and con- 
 tinuously on the top of that mine it 
 might be different. Tou complain of 
 our radical pit committees, and I must 
 say that we have good cause to com- 
 plain of the top men you employ. Half 
 of the trouble' you complain of today 
 is brought about by your mine mana- 
 gers. We certainly cannot accept any 
 such clause. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't believe that 
 when this matter is thoroughly ana- 
 lyzed there is much difference between 
 the conservative miners of Illinois and 
 ourselves upon this subject.. There is 
 nothing in what we have here present- 
 ed that was not recognized in the com- 
 mittee a year ago. The _intent of the 
 resolution as read, in regard to one 
 party deciding, is simply that the work 
 shall not be stopped on account of any 
 inspection; but unjust docking is a 
 grievance, and the check welghman can 
 report it if he thinks it is unjust. I don't 
 think it is charged that the trimmers 
 have been arbitrary or unjust, or that 
 they have abused any power they had. 
 It was said in committee last year that 
 it was believed the company's repre- 
 sentatives would act fairly, and there 
 was no disposition to appeal from his 
 decision or fetter him arbitrarily. 
 
 In regard to the point President Rus- 
 sell wishes to make, as to the wrong 
 of having someone pay for the sulphur 
 that accumulates that comes out m 
 small quantities, it is right and just, 
 even admitting what President Russell 
 says, that the sulphur cannot be kept 
 out by the miner; it is still just that 
 the operator should not pay for that, 
 and that someone on the miners' side 
 should. "We are operating in this state, 
 not from choice, but because of a suc- 
 cessful demand of the miners, on the 
 mine-run system, and every intelligent 
 miner in this room knows that if we 
 were working on the screened lump 
 system we would not pay for even the 
 ten pounds of sulphur. Everybody 
 knows that we would then pay for the 
 net weigM after the stone is thrown 
 out and eithier the •mine'r that loads the 
 stone loses the amount, or if the 
 check weighman has already passed it 
 the next man loses it. In simple jus- 
 tice and on a comparison of this state 
 with other states on a screened coal 
 basis, or compared with ./hat would 
 be the case if we ™ere on a screened 
 coal basis in Illinois, the miner should 
 compensate the operator for what is 
 thrown out and is not coal. 
 
 MR SWEET:— Since we have been 
 operating our mines at Thayer we find 
 g great deal of impurities coming out 
 
 in the coal. I decided to have that 
 taken out every day and weighed and 
 ail account kept of it. I have made a 
 report to Mr. Ryan. He knows the 
 condition of affairs there. I have fig- 
 ured it out, since we have beeti getting 
 up to fifteen hundred tonsi a day, and 
 it amounts to seven pounds to the ton. 
 When you come to take the day's work 
 it amounts to five or six tons of sulphur 
 and dirt a day that we pay for, and 
 we also have been at the expense of 
 having a picker there. If there is 
 any way by which these impurities can 
 be kept out and the company reim- 
 bursed for the expense of taking it out, 
 and what we have been paying to the 
 miner for mining it, that would be sat- 
 isfactory to everybody. There are 
 many cases worse than this. One day a 
 car came up, and it looked so bad that 
 the man on top noticed it and ran it off. 
 When it was examined it was found 
 that there were six hundred pounds of 
 sulphur and impurities in that car. 
 That Is a case where we should have 
 discharged the man, but we didn't. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you remember tell- 
 ing us about that case, and we asked 
 you what you did with the man? You 
 said you had done nothing to the man, 
 and we asked you why you let him 
 so? 
 
 MR. SWEET:— We didn't want any 
 trouble there. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You would not have 
 bad any trouble. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— I didn't know it then. 
 We have had cases since, and we have 
 had fair decisions. Seven pounds a ton 
 appears small, but at the same time it 
 runs up to six or seven or eight tons 
 a day, and in a mointh it amounts to 
 two or three hundred tons, and there 
 should be some way in which the oper- 
 ator would be reimbursed for the 
 trouble of picking this stuff out. It 
 may be that the impurities escape the 
 miner in the mine, and that they dO' 
 not see them, but it seems impossible 
 that all this stuff should come out 
 without the miners knowing it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I would like to ask 
 a question. Do you believe It is right 
 and just and fair to fine a man a dollar 
 or lay him oif a day because he loads 
 out seven pounds of impurities of some 
 kind, and the chances were that he 
 did not know they were in the car? 
 
 MR. SWEET:— That is the average. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That is what the 
 clause means. It gives you that right 
 absolutely. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We have all tried 
 for the past four or five years to get 
 a clause in here that would be fair to 
 both sides. I have heard this matter 
 discussed for twenty years, ever since 
 I was a kid in ithe Hocking Valley. 
 The old wav was to dock a man for 
 everything and keep the money. A few 
 years ago we put In our state contract 
 a clause which turned the money over 
 to the organization. In other words, 
 the operators tried to show that they 
 
Morning Session, March i. 
 
 were fair in their contention tliat they 
 only wanted clean coal, and did not 
 seek to take away from the miners any 
 of their earnings. I believe now if wei 
 can draft a clause that will protect 
 the operators and reimburse them and 
 punish the dishonest miners, we will all 
 asree on it. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell made a statement that 
 in Ohio they could load 150 pounds of 
 impurities before they would be fined. 
 That is the worst abused clause In the 
 four states. The miners construe that 
 to mean that they can load as much 
 as 150 pounds before they will be dock- 
 ed. Most oif them will load as: near 
 that as they can guess before the car 
 goes out. The miner that works long 
 in those mines that cannot guess 145 
 pounds is a poor guesser. They have 
 been using that rule on the operators 
 as a club this whole seaso'n. I want 
 to say that it will not go into their 
 local agreement this year if the opera- 
 tors can help it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is obvious that Mr. 
 Russell confounds two different para- 
 graphs in the scale. Nothing intimates 
 that any man is either going to be 
 fined or discharge for seven pounds of 
 impurities, or anything like It. It pro- 
 vides that a man shall be punished for 
 loading dirty coal. But there is a pro- 
 vision that we shall be compensated 
 for sulphur, no matter in what quantity 
 it is loaded. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The section . as 
 proposed by the operators, as Mr. Rus- 
 sell says, will not even be considered 
 by the miners. It is unfair, and there 
 is not one bit of equity in lit. The 
 miners have agreed with the operators 
 in other year.si that where the miner 
 carelessly and maliciously or willfully 
 loads impurities he ought to be pun- 
 ished for it. Under this section, if you 
 find sulp~hur in his car, without Investi- 
 gating or knowing anything about it, 
 he will be liable to the penalty. You 
 all know that a miner cannot help put- 
 ting sulphur in his coal sometimes. I 
 think every miner has exercised due 
 care in the past year to- keep impurities 
 out of his coal. I don't believe you 
 should ask an extension of last year's 
 agreement; and I think that should be 
 modified and some of its most stringent 
 provisions removed. 
 
 (On the amendment pending the oper- 
 ators voted Tes, the miners voted No, 
 and It was lost.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that action 
 on the sixth clause be deferred until to- 
 morrow morning, and that the whole 
 matter be referred to a sub-committe?, 
 to draft a clause to be presented to the 
 scale committee. (Seconded and car- 
 ried.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Bent and Mr. 
 Cutts will act as our committee. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Our members' of 
 that committee will be H. C. Perry and 
 Matt Charlton, 
 
 The'commlttee was then adjourned to 
 meet at 9:30 a. m. March 4. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 4, 1902. 
 The joint scale committee was called 
 to order at 9:30 a. m. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Yesterday the miners 
 deferred their vote on the fifth resolu- 
 tion. The operators voted Aye, and 
 the miners deferred their vote. The 
 miner now vote Aye, and the clause is 
 declared adopted. 
 
 The seventh clause of the present 
 agreement was read, and it was moved 
 and seconded that the same be adopted. 
 MR. HEFTI:— I move as a substitute 
 the sixth clause of the miners' agree- 
 ment. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The differences ars 
 there between the two sections? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— In the issuing of the 
 statements. Now the operators' issue 
 it at their option; In yours you issue 
 it twenty-four hours before pay day. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):- From 
 the company I work for we have only 
 succeeded in getting statements about 
 three times in the past year. I work 
 for the Citizens' Coal Mining Company, 
 Springfield. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— If that Is all It 
 means, I don't see any objection to the 
 present contract. If there are mines- 
 where the men want it they can have 
 it under the present contract. 
 
 Suppose we let this rest until we can 
 confer with some of the operators. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If there are no objec- 
 tions it will be deferred for the present. 
 The eighth resolution of the agree- 
 ment of 1901 read. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to substi- 
 tute the 18th clause of the miners' pro- 
 posed scale. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In support of my 
 motion I desire to say that this is the 
 old system that prevailed in many 
 parts of Illinois years ago. "When 
 agreements were made the understand- 
 ing was that if the powder was pur- 
 chased from the operators the price 
 was fixed for it, the miners reserving 
 the right to buy it elsewhere if they 
 wished. This is the agreement that 
 prevails In other states. In fact, In the 
 Pittsburg district the miners buy their 
 powder where they please, without any 
 agreement. In Ohio $1.75 Is the 
 maximum amount charged. In some 
 places it Is as low as $1.60. From what 
 we hear I think the miners may be 
 obliged to buy their powder from the 
 operators anyhow. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We will be 
 perfectly willing to grant this powder 
 question as Mr. Mitchell wants It, pro- 
 vldmg he will give us everything In the 
 way of conditions that Pennsylvania 
 and Ohio have. If you will give ue all 
 the advantages they enjoy we will be 
 perfectly willing to ^oln with you on 
 the powder question. We feel handi- 
 capped enough however, without It 
 We want to say the kind of powder 
 that sha^ be used In our different 
 mine?. We don't ■syant the miners to 
 
Morning Session, March 4. 
 
 97 
 
 buy powder from every company they 
 see fit. We want to know what kind 
 of powder is being used. We are the 
 best judges of that. 
 
 (On the substitute the operators voted 
 No, the miners voted Aye, and it was 
 lost.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move that 
 the following section be adopted: 
 
 "The price for powder per keg shall 
 be $2.00 — the miners agree to purchase 
 their powder from the operators, pro- 
 vided it is furnished of standard grade 
 and quality; that to be determined by 
 the operators and expert miners jointly 
 where there is a difference." (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Why do you want 
 $2.00? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Because we 
 expect to pay that price for it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You expect to pay 
 $2.00 for it? 
 
 MR. .MOORSHEAD:— Yes; that Is 
 what the combine says. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted Noi and It was lost.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— There are certain rea- 
 sons why the operators do not feel 
 able intelligently to fix the price on 
 powder here in this session. I believe 
 it is to the interests of all parties that 
 this question be referred to a special 
 committee, they to report to this com- 
 mittee tomorrow. If that Is done the 
 special committee can take the question 
 up with the powder people today, and 
 be able to report intelligently to the 
 committee. I make a motion to that 
 effect. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— Our members of that 
 committee will be : Messrs. Keefer, 
 Lukens and Moorshead. 
 
 MR.^ RUSSELL:— W^e will appoint 
 Messrs. John Green, Eugene Zellers 
 and David Huggins. 
 
 The ninth resolution of the agree- 
 ment for 1901 was read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 for the clause just read the ninth clause 
 of the operators' proposed scale. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MRS MORRIS:— I would offer as a 
 substitute for the whole the seventh 
 clause in the miners' proposed scale. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I am surprised at Mr. 
 Bent for making such a motion. I have 
 not been so much surprised at Mr. 
 Mooreshead, but the idea of Mr. Bent 
 making such a motion and asking for 
 more money for blacksmlthing, when 
 there is only an occasional pick to be 
 sharpened in his field for the miners. , 
 We people in the long wall certainly 
 kick against the price we have 
 been paying for pick sharpening. You 
 all know that in the long: wall if a 
 man owns two picks he has got quite 
 a number; he doesn't need any more; 
 he isn't sending out a cart load to be 
 sharpened every day. The idea of 
 charging a man 25 cents a month for 
 sharpening two picks is ridiculous! In 
 the mines where we work that means 
 
 $150 a month that we pay for black- 
 smithing, and it takes one blacksmith 
 about five hours a day to do the work. 
 I think it is the most absurb thing I 
 ever heard of. And you ask us to pay 
 still more, when today we are paying 
 three or four times as much as the 
 operators pay out for the work that Is 
 done. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I didn't mean to be per- 
 sonal at all in my remarks; but if I 
 know anything at all about' long wall 
 work and long wall conditions, Mr. 
 Perry's estimate of the work done there 
 is wrong. I have yet to understand 
 why one and one-fourth per cent of the 
 gross earnings of the men is right in 
 Indiana and wrong in Illinois. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Have they long wall 
 in Indiana? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is this a long wall reso- 
 lution only? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It is divided. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I suppose the resolu- 
 tion would apply to all parts of the 
 state. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I think one and one- 
 fourth per cent of the gross earnings 
 as applied- to room and pillar work is 
 equally absurb. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It strikes me it is too 
 absurb to waste time talking about. 
 The operators never thought for one 
 minute that that would be adopted. 
 
 MR. REES: — Is It your understand- 
 ing, Mr. Bent, that one and one-fourth 
 per cent of the gross earnings of the 
 men is equivalent 'to the 6-10 lof a 
 cent a ton we had last year in our 
 scale? We propose a reduction of one- 
 third. I stand here to support .our sec- 
 tion. We are paying too much now. 
 I work at Breese. The coal there aver- 
 ages eight feet. I send out about two 
 picks a week, and perhaps a set of tools 
 once. I have about twenty points 
 sharpened during the month, and pay 
 about 96 cents for doing that. Our 
 blacksmlthing, I presume, occupies one 
 man's time about two hours a day for 
 sharpening. I have figured it out thus: 
 Two hours a day for 26 days would 
 come to $15.60: One hundred and thirty 
 miners during the month pay 96 cents 
 apiece, which makes a total of $124.80. 
 Deduct the actual value of doing the 
 sharpening, $15.60, and it leaveis a bal- 
 ance of $109.24 for the operator. I 
 should like to know why that it done. 
 Why should we pay this premium of 
 over $109 to the operators for having 
 our work done by their blacksmith? 
 How can the operators justify that 
 practice? They want the public to un-, 
 derstand that this joint movement is 
 founded, and is intended to rest, upon 
 correct business ideas. Who Is to de- 
 termine what are correct business 
 ideas? According to the wording of 
 the resolution they want the public to 
 approve of it. I doubt if the public 
 would approve of this amount being 
 paid the blacksmiths if the real condi- 
 tions were understood. The amount we 
 pay is exorbitant and out of all rea- 
 
98 
 
 Morning Sbssion, March i. 
 
 son. If we want to srO' on. record that 
 we are doing business on correct busi- 
 ness principles, let us tell the public 
 the whole situation without reserve. I 
 think both sides should give the actual 
 figures when these resolutioins are of- 
 fered. We offer very liberal terms to 
 the operators when we offer four- tenths 
 of a cent a ton. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I am very glad the 
 gentleman made the remark he did, 
 because it ' answers some of Brother 
 Perry's questions. The long wall 
 miners pay twenty-five cents a month. 
 This gentleman says lie pays 96 cents 
 a month, and only had about two picks 
 a month to be sharpened. The miners 
 in the long wall work usually leave 
 about five or six a week with the 
 blacksmith to be sharpened. The act- 
 ual fact is that the blacksmith in the 
 long wall work is a cost to the com- 
 panies. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— For the work he 
 does outside for the company? 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— The pick sharpeni^ng 
 at 25 cents a month does not pay for 
 the blacksmith. Of course he does 
 some other work besides. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Tou don't make that 
 argument for the mines Mr. Perry men- 
 tioned, where they have six hundred 
 miners? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I am making it for 
 my own mines. I know the pick sharp- 
 ening in our mines does not pay us. 
 
 MR. BENT:- Mr. Perry assumed that 
 what might exist there was a fair 
 criterioin for northern Illinois as a 
 whole, instead of one or two large 
 mines. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Does not the amount 
 of work a blacksmith has to dO' de- 
 crease according to the number of men? 
 MR. BENT:— I would think so; but 
 not if Mr. Perry s figures are correct- 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It is reasonable to sup- 
 pose that a mine where they have six 
 hundred men would do twice as much 
 work as where they have three hundred 
 men. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Taylor and I know 
 that is not so in mines where they 
 have three hundred men; so> you may 
 take it for what it is worth. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I am surprised at 
 the statement of the gentleman from 
 Breese. He is a practical miner. I 
 know picks have been very little 
 used, but I never thought they had 
 gone to the extent of using two picks 
 a week. I know that drills are very ' 
 extensively used, and it is very costly 
 to sharpen drills and buy files to file 
 them with. In my shop it costs me 
 nearly as much for flies as it costs to 
 get the blacksmith to sharpen them. 
 I have offered my men that shop, the 
 coal and everything- furnished if they 
 would furnish their own blacksmith. 
 They have never accepted that offer. 
 I am sorry and yet pleased to hear the 
 statement made by the gentleman from 
 Breese, because I believe it is a fact 
 that they are getting down to two or 
 
 three picks a week. I have made the 
 statement here on several occasions 
 that the miners of Illinois are deter- 
 iorating. I believe it is a fact. When 
 any man will get up here and state 
 that he uses two picks a week to mine 
 his coal, it shows that the pick is get- 
 ting to be very greatly slighted, but 
 the drill and the powder are coming 
 in vogue very fast. The expenses for 
 drills is very great. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I want to say to my 
 friend, Mr. Newsam, that I don't think 
 there are half a dozen miners in our 
 district who own drills. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — I am answering the 
 gentleman from Breese. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I have sold in 
 our store at Coal City more than half 
 a dozen drills within the last year. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You don't say what 
 they were for. They may have been 
 used for digging wells. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— They were long 
 enough. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— They may have been 
 digging new mines. 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— They were not. 
 MR. PERRY:— Do you mean to say 
 they are shooting the coal in the long 
 wall fields? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It has crept into our 
 district, but it is going to creep out 
 again; it won't be done very long. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— There never was a 
 time when people used more picks than 
 I have stated here. Occasionally there 
 are some men who will use more picks 
 because they get to a hard place. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I was not speaking 
 of the long wall work. I was answer- 
 ing the gentleman from Breese. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— They say the 25 cents 
 a month does not pay the blacksmith. 
 I will ask Mr. Bent if he pays over all 
 the money to the blacksmith that we 
 pay him for sharpening our tools'' 
 
 MR. BENT:— I said the data you 
 furnished did not apply to the mines 
 employing three hundred men, and it 
 does not, and nothing that approxi- 
 mates that basis; 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Three hundred men 
 at 25 cents a man will make $75 a 
 month. Will you give the blacksmith 
 $i5 for doing nothing, only sharpening 
 the tools of the miners? 
 
 MR. REESE:— I would like to defend 
 my statement. Mr. Newsam said he 
 was answering the man from Breese 
 He said he was glad to hear what I 
 r'?C ^^i;?^PS I can enlighten him 
 fa.rther We don't use files. The points 
 ,ot the drills are made so hard that files 
 will not do anything with them We 
 have grind stones to grind them, and 
 we can sharpen them until they get too 
 narrow. Piles are no expense to us. 
 About once every two weeks we send 
 our drills out. but two picks a week 
 IS the principal part of the business 
 Quite often we have to chip the coal 
 when the powder does not throw It 
 completely off the solid. I am not 
 ashamed of the assertion that I use 
 
Morning Session, March 4. 
 
 iDut two picks a week. I know also 
 that I am stating tlie experience of 
 scores of other men in the same mine. 
 
 MR. DAGON:— Mr. Taylor stated 
 that 25 cents a month did not pay 
 the blacksmith there. He has had on 
 an average about three hundred men. 
 At 25 cents apiece that would amount 
 to $75 a month. I am familiar with 
 what he pays his blacksmith. That 
 does pay him and pay for drill sharp- 
 ening and everything else. I will not 
 state what the salary is, but I know it. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— In answering 
 Mr. Perry's argument, I will say this 
 in regard to cur own particular locality. 
 It is the understanding' that we shall 
 have the pick sharpener on duty dur- 
 ing the working time In the shafts tO' 
 enable the miners to have their picks 
 sharpened quickly whenever necessary. 
 To do that we are compelled to have 
 more than one man. It is true that 
 that man's entire time would not be 
 occupied in sharpening picks, but we 
 have to employ that man and pay him 
 on full time or we could not set him. 
 One man could not do the work. One 
 man is really all we need as far as our 
 own outside work is concerned, but we 
 are compelled to employ two. I can say 
 for our company that we would be glad 
 to have the miners employ their own 
 blacksmith. If they choose to employ 
 their own man they can pay him as 
 they see fit. That would suit us. 
 
 MR. SECOR: — There seems to be 
 quite a little competition among oper- 
 ators and miners to find out who is 
 the most generous in the matter of 
 pick sharpening. "We machine men 
 don't want to take a back seat. "We 
 think we are quite as generous as any- 
 one else. These gentlemen would like 
 to find some one who would give the 
 man who does the blacksmithing all 
 that is paid ' for this class of work. 
 The machine operators would be glad 
 to do it. 
 
 MR. LEDFORD:— It would not be as 
 absurb for us to ask the operators to 
 do our blacksmithing for nothing, as 
 to ask us to pay more than we do. 
 "We are now paying our blacksmith 
 $1.80 a day. I don't think we ought 
 to waste any more time on this matter. 
 
 MR. "W. T. MORRIS:— Mr. Newsam 
 made a statement that I wish to an- 
 swer. He referred to the fact that a 
 small number of picks were being used, 
 and that this was evidence that the 
 miners were getting away from a prac- 
 tical system of mining coal. I have 
 worked in the mines In my time, where 
 for one year I never used a grain of 
 powder, neither did I take out one pick 
 a month, nor one drill in six months. 
 It does not follow that because the 
 picks are not taken out to the black- 
 smith the mining Is not done in a 
 proper way. The Halliday mines that 
 were located at St. Johns, Illinois, is 
 the place where I worked at that time. 
 The same will apply to some of the 
 southern mines today, as far as the use 
 
 of tools is concerned. It is evident that 
 for' the service of one blacksmith, com- 
 panies are receiving from eight to ten 
 dollars a day. ' 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I am very sorry to 
 hear Mr. Morris take the conditions at 
 one single mine to challenge my state- 
 ments. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I don't take just one 
 mine. I will take the whole southern 
 field. 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I would think it a 
 very funny thing to find any man in 
 our mines coming out with twO' picks 
 a week. To show you that this black- 
 smithing does not pay, even with your 
 6-10 of a cent, figuring on about three 
 hundred men, see what it brings you. 
 You have a great many mines where 
 the output it not large, yet you force 
 a blacksmith on that mine, and you are 
 settling his wages and the price you 
 must charge. I know that this is the 
 case, and I know that at any number of 
 the mines 6-10 of a cent will not pay, 
 and can not pay the blacksmith. I am 
 not speaking now of a single particular 
 mine. I wa"nt to take it as a general 
 run of the mines. I think we should 
 always do this and not pick out one 
 mine and leave out the rest of the state. 
 That is not fair. I know that the oper- 
 ators in every mine in our district 
 would be willing to let the miners have 
 their own blacksmith, and give them 
 the shop in the bargain. .^ 
 
 MR. RYAN: — When you said it does 
 not pay and it can not pay do you 
 base your argument on the actual work 
 the blacksmith performs, or on the en- 
 tire salary? 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I base my argu- 
 ment on, the time the blacksmith uses m 
 sharpening the men's tools, and nothing 
 else. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am satisfied that 
 the onerators have not suffered under 
 the present clause. I believe it would 
 be very easy to take the large mines, 
 and show that the blacksmiths work- 
 ing at those mines are paid by the men 
 for all the work they perform. The 
 operators have issued an ultimatam 
 in which they say they will not allow 
 any condition, to be imposed upon 
 them that will in any manner increase 
 the cost of the oroduction of their 
 coal. I believe it is losing time to 
 debate, any such question as this. The 
 miners are just as determined as the 
 operators that they will not come here 
 and have conditions imposed upon them 
 that will reduce their wages. We 
 might as well understand each other 
 in the beginning. 
 
 MR. BENT: — About how matiy men 
 were employed in the St. Johns mines 
 at the time you speak of, Mr. Morris? 
 MR. MORRIS:— I spoke of that mine 
 merely to answer Mr. Newsam's argu- 
 ment. He was using the argument that 
 because few picks were going out that 
 
 the class of mining was deteriorating. 
 
 I should judge there were 150 men In 
 
 that mine. That amount of picks did 
 
100 
 
 Morning Session, March 4. 
 
 not apply to all the men. It did not 
 apply to the entry men especially. 
 
 MR. BENT:— You said there were a 
 great many other mines In the same 
 condition, and that In some of those 
 mines the company was getting- from 
 eight to ten dollars a day. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I said companies in 
 southern Illinois receiving from eight 
 to ten dollars a day, and that one 
 blacksmith performed all of the work. 
 MR. BENT: — How many men would 
 be employed in such a mine? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— To get that the out- 
 put would have to be about 1,200 tons 
 of coal. They would employ about 200 
 men. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The operators are not 
 asking an advance for the room and 
 pillar mines of the state. We are pro- 
 testing against the Inequality in not 
 applying that to machine mines and 
 long wall mines. Tou say mines of 
 about 200 men in parts of southern Illi- 
 nois are paying the companies from 
 eight to ten dollars a day. In other 
 words frpm two hundred to two' hun- 
 dred and fifty dollars a month for 
 about two hundred men would be from 
 $1 to $1.25 apiece. In the long wall 
 mines of northern Illinois a mine of 
 200 men would pay $50 a month, and in 
 the mines Mr. Morris speaks of, a • 
 mine of 200 men would pay from $1 to 
 $1.25 a month. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— One miner would 
 produce 10 tons against the other's 3 
 tons. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — Do two wrongs make 
 one right? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The gentleman over 
 here was quoting correct business 
 principles. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Because you are get- 
 ting an extortionate price from the 
 people in the south, would it make it 
 right to get the same from us? I want 
 to say right now that I will agree to 
 do this: I will take the long wall 
 mines, large and small, and I will find 
 the average number of men at these 
 mines, and if It does not pay more than 
 the blacksmith's wages for the time 
 they are employed sharpening our tools 
 in that field, I will agree for one to 
 work to get the men to pay more. If 
 it pays more than you pay to the black- 
 smiths for the whole field, then we pay 
 you less. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Does Mr. Perry in- 
 clude machine mines in that? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have never worked 
 in a machine mine in the state of Illi- 
 nois, and I don't know anything about 
 that; I don't know what your practice 
 is, and I don't know what you pay. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Mr. Bent bases his 
 argument on the number of men. He 
 ought to realize that 200 men in the 
 southern field are equal to five or six 
 
 hundred men in the northerh field 
 
 that is, the product of their labor is 
 equal. 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Morris says in the 
 
 same field the number of tools they had 
 sharpened was enormously less. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— The illustration of 
 tools was not the only point I men- 
 tioned. I made that statement in an- 
 swer tO' Mr. Newsam. I wanted to 
 show that the question of tools did not 
 enter into the question of producing 
 good coal. 
 
 MR. NETVSAM:— I will make a 
 proposition, as far as my mine Is con- 
 cerned. I will give the miners the 
 blacksmith shop, I will give them the 
 anvil and furnish the coal to keep it 
 up if they will only sharpen their own. 
 tools. This offer is good for the com- 
 ing year. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— It does not surprise 
 me at all that Mr. Newsam should of- 
 fer this. There are a good many tools 
 coming out of his mine and his black- 
 smith is kept pretty busy. That would 
 not apply to all the mines in the state. 
 MR. PERRY:— I wish Mr. Newsam 
 would go over and make that proposi- 
 tion to Mr. Dalzell. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- 1 am not talking 
 long wall at all. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The motion is on the 
 substitute offered by Mr. Morris, of 
 Springfield, to substitute the clause in 
 the miners' scale for the present clause 
 'in our state agreement. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I have listened at- 
 tentively to the. arguments produced on 
 both sides, and It seems to me one im- 
 portant thing has been lost sight of. 
 I want to go on record as being un- 
 derstood that we want to formulate a 
 price that is absolutely fair for the 
 blacksmith. In defense of that substi- 
 tute for the whole, I want to say that 
 in the southern field machine mines do 
 not pay anything. Now it has been 
 repeatedly stated on this floor that the 
 miners would resist any decrease in 
 wages. If we would accept the opera- 
 tors' resolution the miners that are 
 making fifty dollars a month would 
 have to pay at least 60 cents a mqnth 
 over present conditions. I am opposed 
 to that part of it and favor the sub- 
 stitute for the whole. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators are will- 
 mg to rest the matter where the record 
 stands. It has been admitted by Mr 
 Perry that the present basis is grosslv 
 unequal, and the whole point of his 
 argument is that because there Is an 
 unreasonable compensation In one part 
 of the state that Is no reason why we 
 should equalize it In another part Not 
 one word has been said about equaliz- 
 ing the matter between the long wall 
 and the room and pillar mines and 
 the machme mines. Neither has any- 
 thing been said about our competiOv- 
 conditions. We are willing to stand on 
 the record made here. 
 
 (On the substitute for the whole the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 (On the motion to substitute the 
 fi^»^.^lt"^f °^ ^^^ operators' scale for 
 the ninth clause of the present agree- 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 4. 
 
 101 
 
 ■ment, the operators voted Aye, the 
 ■miners voted No, and It was lost.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— As you passed the 
 seventh clause a while ago after some 
 conference, we are ready now to sub- 
 mit this to the meeting. This Is a 
 substitute for the whole: 
 
 "The miners of the state of Illinois 
 are to be paid twice a mqnth, the dates 
 of pay to be determined locally, but 
 in no event shall more than one-half 
 mionth's pay be retained by the opera- 
 tor. When any number of men at any 
 mine so demand, statements will be 
 issued to all employes not less than 
 twenty-four hours prior to pay day. 
 No commissions will be charged for 
 money advanced between pay days, 
 but any advances between pay days 
 shall be at the option of the operator." 
 MR. RYAN: — Has the special com- 
 mittee agreed on that? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— We are satisfied. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move the report of 
 
 the committee be adopted. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 
 Taylor or Mr. Hefti it that applies to 
 
 one man. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It says "any number 
 of men." 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It seems to me that 
 clause might cause trouble if left in 
 that way. I think it might be made 
 more explicit. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I would like to sret a 
 reply to my question ^rom one of the 
 committee. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):- It does 
 not mean one man; it means any num- 
 "ber of men. Two is a number. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— One is a number. 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— If a 
 man should ask for this I don't think 
 it would be fair for that one man to 
 govern the whole outfit. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — The understanding 
 was this: In somip places the men 
 have not been able to get their state- 
 ments. They are certainly entitled to 
 "know what is coming to them. To 
 make this plain we put in there the 
 -words, "any number of men at any 
 mine." The word "local" used last 
 year was misconstrued to mean a cer- 
 tain district. When men are entitled 
 to a statement they ought to get it. 
 This means one man or ten men. 
 
 (On the report of the committee the 
 operators voted Aye, the miners voted 
 Aye and it was carried.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Do you desire to take 
 any further action on the ninth clause? 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We would like to 
 have that deferred for a short time. 
 
 The tenth resolution in the agreement 
 of 1901 was read, as follows: 
 
 "Tenth. It is understood that thei-e 
 IS no agreement as to the price of oil." 
 MR. GREEN: — I move that that 
 resolution be adopted as read. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 The lllh resolution of the agreement 
 of 1901 was read, and it was moved and 
 seconded that the clause be adopted. 
 MR. BENT:— There is no objection on 
 
 the part of the operators to the sec- 
 tion as it is at present, except that it 
 is sometimes misconstrued locally. The 
 similar clause in the operators' scale 
 means that, nothing more and nothing 
 less. It was made specific in order to 
 prevent trouble locally. We move as a 
 substitute the 11th clause of the opera- 
 tors' proposed scale. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 by adding the following classes of 
 labor: Mine examiner, $2.70 a day; 
 mule feeder, $2.50 a day; • motormen, 
 $3.00; grippers, $2.25; tail-rope en- 
 gineers, $2.50; machine repairers, $2.70; 
 switch thrower, $1.50; line and wire 
 men, $2.40; rope-splicers, $2.75; shot 
 flrers, $3.50. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't think the 
 national president stopped to think 
 when he made that substitute. The Co- 
 lumbus day-wage scale is a part of the 
 interstate contract. There are certain 
 specific classes of wages set forth In 
 that contract, and the tacking on of 
 other classes of labor is confusing. I 
 think it will be to the interest of both 
 miners and operators to pass the clause 
 as read, and then take uP for special 
 consideration those classes of labor 
 that are not included in the^ Columbus 
 day-wage scale. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The last clause in 
 your motion provides "All other Inside 
 day labor, $2.10." If you pass that 
 scale, what are you going to pay these 
 classes of labor? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We have used the 
 wording of the Columbus day-wage 
 scale. We have endeavored to keep 
 within the wording of the interstate 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Does the Columbus 
 day-wage scale specify "All other in- 
 side day labor,' $2.10?" 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir; it does. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We have taken a 
 copy of the Columbus day-wage scale, 
 and have not endeavored to enject any 
 other classes of labor in there. That 
 is fixed and beyond the power of this 
 committee to change. If there are any 
 special classes of labor to be considered 
 they should be taken up separately and 
 not tacked on to this Columbus day- 
 wage scale. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— The words, "All other 
 inside day labor," in the Columbus 
 scale could not apply to the men 
 Brother Mitchell has named here. If 
 we pass that we have nothing else we 
 can take up. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It was passed in In- 
 dianapolis three weeks ago; there is no 
 question about that. The Indianapolis 
 interstate agreement was re-afHrming 
 the other contract. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— We did not settle the 
 wages for these men we have men- 
 tioned. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— That is what I am 
 claiming. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is no pur- 
 pose on the part of the miners to try 
 to repudiate the Indianapolis scale. I 
 
102 
 
 Morning Session, March 4 
 
 only amended this to prevent the sec- 
 tion as adopted stopping us from mak- 
 ing a scale for these people. As long 
 as Mr. Taylor says that is not the in- 
 tention we are satisfied. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I did n^c say that. 
 I said we coula not go outside the Co- 
 lumbus day-wage scale. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Would a strict 
 interpretation of the language of the 
 Columbus day -wage scale include the 
 classes I have named? I don't think 
 the committee should include those 
 classes labor at $2.10? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The Columbus scale 
 means what it says. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I don't want to get in- 
 to a disagreement with this whole con- 
 vention, but I am not prepared to agree 
 that there can be any new classes put 
 upon the scale that was adopted in In- 
 dianapolis. I say that was fixed in 
 Indianapolis and can not be changed. 
 The men that are named in that sub- 
 substitute under new professions and 
 divisions have been working in the 
 mines all the time, and are included 
 in the words, "All other inside day 
 labor." 
 
 MR. FERRY:— Does this mean that 
 it would make a scale of wages for 
 such men as the motormen of $2.10 a 
 day? 
 
 MR. SECOR: — I mean to say just 
 that. Motormen are not any new em- 
 ployes in the mines. They have been 
 working in the mines here for several 
 years, and have been working under 
 this day wage scale all the while. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I never knew it if 
 they were. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I knew it. There are 
 a great many things abouc machine 
 mines you don't know, Mr. Perry. 
 Switch throwers are not new employ- 
 es. The switch thrower has been 
 working down there all the while. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— And has he been get- 
 ting $2.10 a day all the while? 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I said he was working 
 under your Columbus day-wage scale. 
 There has been no specified, distinct 
 titles set up for these classes. This is 
 an attempt to get increased wages for 
 classes of men that have been working 
 in the mines all the while. You are 
 trying to pick out this employe ami 
 that, give them new names, and get an 
 increased price for their work That 
 is something you can not do. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— You employ' mot- 
 ormen do you not? 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Yes, sir, we do. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS.:— Where was the 
 motorman's scale made? ^'as it made 
 at Columbus, or was it made by you 
 and the motorman and the officials. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— It has been paid that 
 way ever since we Jiave had a motor in 
 there. The Columbus da„ -wage scale 
 was taken for that. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— What are you 
 paying him? 
 
 MR. SECOR:— The same as the driv- 
 er, $2.10. lie is a driver, nothing more 
 
 and nothing else. Tou can take a driv- 
 er and make a motorman out of him. 
 He is a motor runner; he is not an elec- 
 trician. 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— Do you know 
 what they pay their motorman at Cen- 
 tralia. 
 
 MR. SF:C0R:— I do not. 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— They pay $2.75 
 or $3.00. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Who is the motorman? 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— They have two 
 there. One of them is the superintend- 
 ent's son, and the other is some out- 
 sider. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— The superintendent's 
 son gets more than the scale price. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I wish I was the su- 
 perintendent's son. 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— There are two 
 men there and they are both getting 
 the same price. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Who had the price 
 first? Who was the first motorman 
 down there? 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— The superin- 
 tendent's son. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I have always under- 
 stood that he was paid by the month. 
 If a man sees fit to go to work and pay 
 more than the scale calls for he does 
 wrong-, just as much as if you men 
 worked tor less than the scale. This 
 thing does not hit me alone; there are 
 several other subdivisions of labor that 
 have been paid under this Columbus 
 day wage scale. You have picked them 
 out one or two at a time and added a 
 higher price than you have had before. 
 That is one way of getting around the 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— The superintend- 
 ent's son at Centralia is a member of 
 our organization. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I don't know that he 
 is. 
 
 MR. REYNOIjDS:— He is, and the 
 scale was made by the officials of the 
 organization and the company. The 
 same scale was made in other places 
 where they have motors. I think the 
 motorman at Mt. Olive gets $3.00 a day. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— The Odin Coal Com- 
 pany expects to pay and agrees to pay 
 the scale of prices laid down for us. 
 Your statement that somebody's mot- 
 orman is getting more than the scale 
 is not a good argument. If you make 
 the scale more, well and good. What- 
 ever you make the scale, I intend to 
 pay. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— These men were 
 not mentioned under t;he Columbus 
 agreement, and if they must be taken 
 up under that agreement, the operators 
 have violated the agreement as well as 
 the miners have. You contend under 
 the Columbus agreement that we have 
 no right to make a scale for the motor- 
 men, or any class of labor not men- 
 tioned in the Columbus agreement. W^e 
 have many classes not mentioned in 
 the agreement that are getting mors 
 than $2.10 a day. By making that price^ 
 
Morning Session, March i. 
 
 103 
 
 we recognize our right to make a scale 
 for the classes not mentioned. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— The classes you have 
 mentioned were working in the mines 
 at the time the Columbus wage scale 
 was made. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Some of them 
 were. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Motormen existed, 
 plenty of them; switch throwers exist- 
 ed, plenty of them; and all the other 
 classes existed, plenty of them, before 
 that labor scale was made. When you 
 made it you made a few classes of 
 labor as illustrations, and at the bot- 
 tom of it all you said, "All other class- 
 es," and under that .^cale we have been 
 working ever since. That is the scale 
 that was re-affirmed at Indianapolis 
 and is In force today. "Without doing 
 violence to the interstate contract you 
 can not change it. 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I see you have 
 grippers here, $2.25. Some three or four 
 years ago I asked in a convention 
 what you meant by trip riders. Tou 
 stated a grlpper was a trip rider. I 
 had been paying fifty cents a day less 
 for the grippers than I had for the 
 drivers. I am somewhat surprised to 
 see a scale made for the grlpper of 
 $2.25 a day, a boy of fifteen or sixteen 
 years old riding on the car and getting 
 hold of the grip, while you pay the 
 driver only $2.10. I want To know now 
 what is meant by a gripper and a trip 
 rider? If the gripper's wages is more 
 than the trip rider, I want to find out 
 which is which. Boys of fifteen and 
 sixteen years of age all over this state 
 have been getting from 25 to 50 cents 
 a dav less than the driver, and now 
 after four years of that price you have 
 put them above the driver. 
 
 MR. PICTOISh— Did you make the 
 statement that you were paying the 
 trip rider le.=s than you were paying 
 your drivers? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM;— When I commenc- 
 ed with the trip riders, yes. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Tou are not now? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— No, I am now pay- 
 ing $2.10, and you want to raise me, to 
 $2.25. 
 "mR. O'NEILL:— Is not the gripper a 
 better man to you on gripping than a 
 driver? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— No, sir, I can get 
 bovs of fifteen and sixteen to do as 
 much as that, but no more. The rope 
 runs about 3% miles an hour, and it can 
 not go faster. The boy will get on 
 there and he will ride just as fast as 
 you ride, and he can not do more. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. Seeor states 
 there was a scale made for the motor- 
 men. In my district we didn't know 
 what a motorman was before the Co- 
 lumbus agreement. Since then we have 
 gotten together locally and made a 
 scale. I think there are six in the 
 field. Mr. Garrison has four. I would 
 like to know what he pays. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I don't know. I 
 will ask the question later 'and tell 
 
 you. I think we hire them by the 
 month. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— You pay them by 
 the day, $3.00 a day. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I think in the con- 
 struction of that agreement I have the 
 national president, Mr. Mitchell, on my 
 side. I think we will agree on what 
 that thing means. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't agree 
 with you. I said I wanted it under- 
 stood that the intent of the motion was 
 not to exclude us from taking it up. 
 I asked if that was the purpose of Mr. 
 Taylor's motion. If it was not the 
 purpose we could go ahead with the 
 substitute. We do not propose to make 
 a scale now that is going to reduce 
 motormen from $a.00 to $2.10 or reduce 
 any other class of labor in Illinois. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The object of our 
 motion was simply to hold inviolate 
 the Columbus day wage scale. If there 
 are any other prices made for any 
 classes of labor, they will nave to be 
 made voluntarily and by mutual con- 
 sent. It is not within the power of any 
 scale committee within the four states 
 to change the Columbus day wage scale 
 in one degree. In using the language of 
 the Columbus day wage scale we added 
 the twenty per cent to make the actual 
 figures. If we pass this we re-affirm 
 the interstate contract; and if any 
 other prices are made for any classes of 
 labor, it will have to be done by mut- 
 ual consent. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We will vote for 
 the 11th clause of the present agree- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— Where it states 
 that timbermen shall be paid $2.28 a 
 day, I want to understand if that in- 
 cludes one man or all of the timber- 
 men? In Mr. Luken's mine they are 
 only paying one man $2.28. They pay 
 the rest of them $2.10 a day and claim 
 that as the agreement. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — Where timbermen 
 are employed we pay them $2.28 a day 
 AVhere we have a common laborer help- 
 ing the regular timberman, lugging in 
 the timber and such things, we pay 
 the common wages, $2.10 a day. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— "What would 
 you class me, from experience in your 
 mine? 
 
 MR. LTJKBNS:- 1 would class you at 
 $2.10. I don't know what the pit boss 
 would do. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:- 1 am asking 
 you what you would class me, from 
 J-our experience in the mine? You have 
 "paid me as a common laborer. You 
 are only paying one man in the lot 
 $2.28; the rest are getting $2.10. I told 
 the superintendent I was timbering, 
 and he told me there was only one tim- 
 berman; that the rest were helpers, 
 and it was according to agreement that 
 the helpers were only to get $2.10. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Did you notch and set 
 timbers? 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— I did. 
 
104 
 
 Morning session, jviarch a. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— For $2.10 a day? 
 
 MR. DEXiEHANTT:— When I couldn't 
 get any more; I had to leave the job. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You did right to leave 
 the job. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Before this 
 scale is settled I want to know If only 
 one man is to get $2.28 a day, or are all 
 the timbermen to get it? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Every man who pre- 
 pares the timbers and gets them ready 
 and sets them is entitled to $2.28 a day. 
 If you use an ax or a saw and prepare 
 and set the timbers you are entitled to 
 $2.28. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— They don't get 
 it- down there. 
 
 MR. I;UKENS:— I merely want to 
 observe that this is the first time I have 
 learned that we did not pay the top 
 price for everything. I supposed we 
 were at the top and set the pace 
 for everyone in the state. I think 
 you will find when you get right 
 down to business that any one who 
 does any practical timbering there 
 gets the $2.28. 
 
 MR. JONES (Catlin):— I would like 
 to know what they class a helper at. 
 What is his class of work? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Lukens defined 
 that clearly. He said the men that 
 hauled in the timbers. 
 
 MR. JONES:— I would like to know 
 if the timbers are not hauled in dur- 
 ing the night time? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — In some parts of the 
 state they are. The driver may haul 
 them in, but the helper drag's them 
 to the timberman. 
 
 MR. JONES: — I have not seen a 
 helper who was not a timberman, as 
 far as experience Is concerned. IThey 
 all notch and saw and crease. I think 
 every man connected with the timber- 
 ing should get $2.28. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):- Ishere 
 any such scale made as a scale for the 
 timberman's helper? I would like to 
 know what a timberman's helper is. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Lukens defined it. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield) :— The only 
 thing they can do is to make a scale 
 for the men who set the timbers, no 
 matter whether they are notched or 
 not. The man who holds the prop and 
 guides the timber is equal tO' the man 
 who drives it up. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — In our section most 
 of the timbers that are put up are big 
 heavy timbers, and the helper is the 
 man who does a great deal of the lift- 
 ing. Our timberman will get a set of 
 timbers ready, and we will then call in 
 a crowd of men to lift them up and get 
 them in place. W^ould you consider 
 those men timbermen? We don't. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't see why we 
 need to go back over this ground when 
 the chairman has defined the timber- 
 man as the man who uses the tools 
 and directs the work. 
 
 MR. JONES:— The man who helps 
 during the time the timberman is notch- 
 ing and measuring the timber is the 
 
 helper. Are you going to pay him for 
 sitting around there? I think not. You 
 want him to help while the timberman 
 is creasing. I see that done through- 
 out the state. I don't think you will 
 pay a man for sitting around. 
 
 MR. NEWS AM:— This argument 
 seems to me all folly. The gentle- 
 man wahts to know what the helper 
 would be doing while the other man 
 was notching the timbers. My exper- 
 ience is that he would be shoveling 
 dirt into a cart or something of 
 that kind. Every man that helps 
 timber is not a timberman. I think the 
 Chair defined that when he said it was 
 getting ready the sets of timbers. 
 
 MR. COLLINS:— Is It not a fact that 
 if the timberman should lay off they 
 would put the helper in the next day 
 to do the work? If he is competent to 
 do that at one time I think he should 
 get the proper wages for it all the 
 time. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I do not see why 
 this matter should be dragged in here 
 at this time. That matter has been 
 defined throughout the state of Illi- 
 nois, and, so far as I have known, it 
 has been lived up to. We have defined 
 the matter in this way; whenever a 
 man uses an ax, even for the purpose 
 of making a wedge, then ns is a tim- 
 berman. We have carried that out in 
 this manner throughout the state, so 
 far as I know. If it has not been car- 
 ried out so, I am in ignorance Of It. I 
 don't consider the man that goes along 
 the entry and cleans up a place to set 
 timbers a timberman; but. I believe 
 when he gets to use the ax and saw he 
 should be paid the timberman's wages. 
 In some of the sub-districts it Is de- 
 fined in that manner in_the sub-dis- 
 trict agreements. The same will ap- 
 ply to the roadmen, the track layers 
 and the helpers. Where they 
 drive spikes they become track men 
 and not helpers. Where they simply 
 assist the track men in laying the road. 
 they are helpers. That has been my 
 understanding of this matter through- 
 out. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:- Do you think a man 
 who can drive a spike Is a competent 
 track layer? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't consider 
 that he is a competent track layer. He 
 Is a track layer, however, when he be- 
 gins to displace the regular track lay- 
 er. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:- 1 think we can stay 
 here a long time before we can define 
 what constitutes a timberman or a 
 track layer. After we have made our 
 best efforts to define it here we will 
 still have to use a good "deal of horse 
 sense when we oome to classifying 
 them in the mines. I take It that the 
 practice followed in the Danville dis- 
 trict is satisfactory, and yet it does not 
 conform exactly to any of the defini- 
 tions that have been given here. There 
 are probably three or four out of six 
 
Morning Session, March 4. 
 
 105 
 
 or seven of the men who are paid at 
 the rate of $2.28 a day. The same Is 
 true of the track layers. It is a com- 
 mon thing for a tlmberman's helper 
 to notch, but he is not competent to go 
 on alone; he is directed by the timber- 
 man. Two helpers cannot gio on and 
 do that work alone. Of, course the 
 time comes when the helper becomes a 
 skilled timberman. I am speaking now 
 of the ones who put up heavy sets. I 
 do not think we can make a definition 
 here which will absolutely define just 
 when this $2.10 man should get $2.28. 1 
 think we will have to continue to be' 
 governed by common sense in the field. 
 A man may need one or two helpers, 
 or he may need none. Sometimes a 
 competent timberman in our field has 
 two helpers; sometimes he has none. 
 I don't think we ought to try to define 
 exactly what constitutes a competent 
 timbe|rman and hold too rigidly to it. 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Mitchell the operators voted No, the 
 miners voted Aye, and it was lost). 
 
 (On Mr. Bent's substitute the operat- 
 ors voted Yes, the miners voted No, 
 and it was lost). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I move the adop- 
 tion of Section 11 of the present agree- 
 ment. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think it is evident 
 that the miners intend to dodge the In- 
 terstate agreement when they vote 
 down the section and put in a subter- 
 fuge, and insert something to take the 
 place of it. If they mean what they 
 say they should have voted for the sub- 
 stitute. It is the exact wording that 
 is in the interstate agreement. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is no in- 
 consistency in the vote of the miners. 
 Mr. Taylor has made the declaration 
 for the operators that they will not 
 make an agreement that increases the 
 cost of their coal. But they are trying 
 ■ to make an agreement that reduces 
 the miners' wages. "We have no inten- 
 tion of repudiating or getting away 
 from the Columbus scale; but it was 
 never contemplated at Columbus that 
 these classes of labor should be paid 
 $2.10. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I made the statement 
 that if there were other prices made 
 they would have to be made by mutual 
 agreement. I don't see that we can 
 consistently vote against the inter- 
 state agreement, either in one clause 
 or as a whole. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Does the 11th clause in 
 the present agreement repudiate the in- 
 terstate scale? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It does not. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That is the question 
 under discussion. The substitutes of- 
 fered by both sides have been voted 
 down, and the 11th clause of the pres- 
 ent agreement is before the commit- 
 teG. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— If the miners vote 
 against the absolute language of the 
 Interstate agreement, it shows there is 
 
 some desire to repudiate it In some 
 manner. i 
 
 MR RYAN:— If this 11th clause di'd 
 not repudiate it last year, why should 
 it do so this year? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We want a higher 
 scale for these people that are enum- 
 erated here. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Is it your opinion 
 that the grippers ought to have $2.28 
 a day? 
 
 IiJR. MITCHELL:— I don'tj know 
 what the environment of a^gripper is; 
 I don't know what his work is. I 
 know in a general way; but I don't 
 know how hard the work is, or what 
 class of men are employed for this 
 particular kind of employment. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— That has always 
 been considered the cheapest class of 
 labor, except the trappers. 
 
 (On motion to adopt the 11th clause 
 of the present agreement the operat- 
 ors voted No, the miners voted Yes, 
 and it was lost). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— According to the oper- 
 ators' statement you have broken even 
 ^you have both repudiated the Colum- 
 bus day wage scale. 
 
 MR.. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 question of an inside day wage scale 
 be referred to a committee of three 
 operators and three miners. (Second- 
 ed and adopted). 
 
 The operators appointed the follow- 
 ing: Messrs. Newsam, Keefer and 
 Moorshead, and the miners appoint- 
 ed Messrs. Reynolds, Topham and Plc- 
 ton. 
 
 The 12th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I wish to offer as a 
 substitute the 9th and 10th clauses of 
 the miners' scale. (Seconded). . 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 for the whole the 12th paragraijh of 
 the operators' scale. (Seconded). 
 
 (On the substitute offered by Mr. 
 Bent the operators voted Yes, the min- 
 ers voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The important 
 change in the miners' resolution is that 
 if a man works overtime he is paid at 
 the rate of time and a half. There Is 
 no reason why men should be required 
 to work overtime for the convenience 
 of the operators without being paid ex- 
 tra for it. There are noi miners who 
 wish to work overtime. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I challenge that, from 
 twenty years' experience. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No trades union- 
 ist wants to work overtime. If he does 
 he is not a good trades unionist. Every 
 other trade union in the country pro- 
 vides double time or time and a half 
 for overtime. It seems to me that if 
 the miners will oblige the companies 
 by working nights or "Sundays they 
 should 'receive additional compensation 
 for it. 
 
 (On the substitute offered by Mr. 
 Perry the operators voted No, the min- 
 ers voted Yes, and it was lost). 
 
Afternoon session, march 4. 
 
 The 13th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:- I move as a substitute 
 the 13th clause of the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What is the difference 
 between the two? 
 
 MR. BKNT:— If I am not mistaken, 
 clauses (a) and (b) are the same; 
 clause (c) provides that when men are 
 away from the work impeding the mine 
 on account of a grievance, which has 
 or has not been taken up, and also if 
 any day man shall fail to report for 
 work, and the same, is likely to impede 
 the operation of the mine, the pit com- 
 mittee shall furnish a man 'or men to 
 take such vacant place or places. 
 
 Section (d) has this provision: "Any 
 pit committee who shall support, or 
 attempt to execute any rule or proceed- 
 ing in conflict with any provision in 
 this contract, or who shall assume any 
 function a.s committeeman not speci- 
 fically set forth herein, shall be forth- 
 with deposed ris commitieeman and 
 di.'^charged by the company." 
 
 Section (e) is unchanged. 
 
 In section (f) the language in the be- 
 ginning is slightly changed. It reads: 
 "The right to hire and di.^charge, the 
 management of the mine and the direc- 
 tion of the working force, are vested 
 exclusively in the operator, and the U. 
 M, W. or A. shall not abridgre this 
 right by listing applicants for employ- 
 ment, or otherwise." The rest of the 
 paragraph is not changed. 
 
 MR, MORRIS (Springfield):— I move 
 as a substitute for the whole the min- 
 ers' proposed scale, the 11th clause. It 
 is not so long and is more easily under- 
 stood. (Seconded). 
 
 (On the substitute for the whole the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Yes, and the motion was lost). 
 
 (On the substi,tute , offered by Mr. 
 Bent the operators voted Yes, the min- 
 er.'^ voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 The 14th clause of the agreement of 
 1901 wa.=i read. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I desire to offer as a 
 substitute the top day wage scale in 
 the miners' scale. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have only this much 
 to say, that the operators are talking 
 constantly about uniformity. They 
 desire to have all things equal. Now 
 we have offered them a uniform top 
 day wage .scale. They cannot refuse it 
 without repudiating everything they 
 have said heretofore. 
 
 (On the substitute the operators vot- 
 ed No, the nniners voted Yes. and it 
 was lost). 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move you the 
 adoption of the 14th clause of the pres- 
 ent agreement. (Seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the motion was lost). 
 
 The committee was then adjourned 
 to meet at 1:30 p. m. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 4, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called to order at 
 1:30 p. m. 
 
 The 15th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read and its adoption moved 
 and seconded. 
 
 (The operator's voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 The 16th clause of the present agree- 
 ment of 1901 was read and its adoption 
 moved and seconded. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— I offer 
 as a substitute that it be referred to the 
 sub-districts for settlement. (Second- 
 ed). 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— If there ever was a 
 clause that was a state matter it is 
 the 16th clause of our present agree- 
 ment. I don't think anyone here ought 
 to shrink from the responsibility of dis- 
 cuFsing this matter. If you wish to 
 do as you say you do, if you wish to 
 dO' good work, you have no reason for 
 not passing this. If you mean to shirk 
 your work and give the company dirty 
 coal, you will vote against it. 
 
 I move as a substitute for the whole 
 that the 16th clause be referred to a 
 special committee here, rather than re- 
 fer it back to the sub-districts. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. DREWS:— I cannot see why the 
 operators should object to having this 
 referred back to the sub-districts. I 
 think this 16th clause worked more 
 hardships in the districts in the south- 
 ern part of the state than anywhere 
 else. I believe we have conditions in 
 the Danville sub-district that operators 
 who have mines in other parts of the 
 state do not understand. I don't think 
 the operators from other districts 
 should come in here and vote on a con- 
 dition they know nothinET about. In 
 the Danville sub-district it is utterly 
 impossible for the miners to dig coal 
 without disturbing props — you cannot 
 do it. If a man in the Danville dis- 
 trict want to dig coal he has gHDt to dis- 
 turb props and knock them out some- 
 times. If one timber out of thirty or 
 thirty-five is knocked out, sometiiii"S the 
 whole number will come do'wn. and we 
 cannot help it. I think in the Danville 
 district this matter can be taken care 
 of better than in the committee here. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (SpiingflelJT):— I think 
 there is no body of men more compet- 
 ent to take up any clause of this agree- 
 ment than the same body of men that 
 have to contend with the agreement 
 every day. I also want to take the 
 same stand Mr. Taylor has taken for 
 the operators, that we don't want any- 
 thing imposed upon us in this joint 
 committee or in the joint convention 
 that will reduce our wages. This clause 
 was put in here last year by a small 
 portion of the representatives of the 
 state. It has imposed a penalty on 
 
Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 107 
 
 the men in some districts. We were 
 forced to have places condemned, not 
 alone by the pit boss and the pit com- 
 mittee, but we were forced to bring 
 the county mine inspector to condemn 
 places in my district to get anything 
 but a. willow prop without a cE^p to it 
 to protect ourselves. We can settle 
 this matter in the districts. I for one 
 will not stand to have the same condi- 
 tions imposed upon us last year by that 
 sixteenth clause. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I favor the mo- 
 tion to refer, because I believe this 
 committe is not competent to consider 
 the cause of the Danville district. The 
 clause that was passed a year ago has 
 certainly worked a hardship on the 
 men of our district. It is utterly im- 
 possible to shoot coal in that district 
 without disturbing the timbers. If a 
 man shoots his shot just so that it will 
 fall over, it will take eight or nine feet 
 to fall in. 
 
 Ifrom the nature of the roof it is im- 
 possible to keep that" up. They con- 
 tended that on account of abuses prac- 
 ticed by the miners in that district this 
 clause was necessary. I want to say 
 that the abuses practiced by the oper- 
 ators this year have been the equiva- 
 lent of any abuses practiced by the 
 miners. The methods adopted in that 
 field to avoid the payment of having 
 the props put in have worked a great 
 hardship on the miners of that district. 
 The clause is an unfair one, and to re- 
 fer it to that district is the only way 
 to settle it properly. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— There is nothing in 
 my motion to prevent Danville from 
 being represented on that committee. 
 If you don't want that referred to the 
 committee, let it be voted down. If 
 you are going to discuss it I want Mr. 
 Keefer here. 
 
 MR. "WILSON:— I am in favor of re- 
 ferring it to a special committee here. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not oppos- 
 ed to referring the matter to a special 
 cnmmUtee, but I want to make a few 
 observations on the 16th clause. 
 
 I hope that this convention will not 
 adopt again a section in its agreement, 
 and especially such an important one 
 at- this, without the convention know- 
 ing what it means. I ~shall never 
 again attempt to interpret a section 'of 
 an agreement if those who were parties 
 to it cannot themselves agree upon it. 
 A great deal of trouble has grown out 
 of tha'.. 16th clause in the agrreement, 
 and out of the decisions that have been 
 made 'on it. I have been told since 
 cominj?- here that the operators of the 
 Danville field construed one part of it 
 to mean that they would change the 
 entire system of mining in the Danville 
 district. I want to read from a decis- 
 ion rendered by Mr. Justi and myself: 
 "We have found in the course 'of our 
 investigations that the present method 
 of shearing in entries is generally sat- 
 isfactory to both miners and operators 
 of the Grape Creek and Westville dis- 
 
 tricts, and therefore assume that no 
 decision on this point is required at 
 this time." 
 
 You will observe that we say no de- 
 cision is necessary from us, and yet 
 one or two of the miners from the Dan- 
 ville field have assured me that the 
 operators have construed that to mean 
 that they must shear their bottom coal. 
 If the operators of the Danville dis- 
 trict have placed that interpretation 
 on this language, they have certainly 
 done wrong. It has also been claimed 
 that promises were made the operators 
 at Columbus that would tend to reduce 
 the mining price below tflat fixed in 
 the national, state and sub-district 
 agreements. Now every operator and 
 miner knows, if they were present at 
 Columbus, that what was said was 
 this: When the operators of the Dan- 
 ville field came to the joint scale com- 
 mittee meeting they complained that 
 the cost of their coal had been increas- 
 ed by arbitrary conditions outside of 
 the agreement, — impositions of the 
 miners which had increased the price 
 from fourteen to sixteen cents a ton; 
 that this increased cost had been forc- 
 ed upon them arbitrarily, and they 
 wanted it removed. We said if that 
 was true, if their cost had been in- 
 creased by the enforcement of arbi- 
 trary conditions outside of the agree- 
 ment, they were entitled to relief, and 
 the 16th clause, as I understand it, was 
 intended to give them relief from it. 
 No promises were made publicly or 
 privately to the Danville operators, or 
 the operators from any other part of 
 the country, to reduce the cost of their 
 coal. 
 
 I hope a section will be brought in 
 here by this special committee that will 
 be so clear that it will not be suscepti- 
 ble of fifteen or twenty different con- 
 structions. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— That is what , we 
 want. When the committee is appoint- 
 ed I hope the members will all be fam- 
 iliar with the workings of the pres- 
 ent clause. That clause was made to 
 see that the promises made to us were 
 carried out. That deadwork that was 
 imposed upon the operators arbitrarily, 
 We were to be protected from. If you 
 bring in an ambiguous clause it will 
 not be satisfactory to either side. I 
 hope you will bring back a clause that 
 will be clear and about which there can 
 be no misunderstanding. 
 
 (On the motion to refer to a special 
 committee the operators voted Yes, the 
 miners voted Yes, and it was carried). 
 MR. MITCHELL:- 1 suggest that the 
 committee be composed of four on each 
 side. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Your special 
 committee on inside day wage scale is 
 in a dispute about what their duties 
 are. They want to know whether, in 
 connection with the Columbus day 
 wage scale, they are to take up the 
 cases of other skilled underground day 
 
108 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 labor? The operators contend that'll 
 Is merely on the day wage scale, while 
 the miners think It wages that are set 
 forth in the miners' scale in addition 
 to the Columbus day wage scale. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That is the purpose for 
 which the committee was appointed. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— That we are 
 to report on the Columbus day wage 
 scale and the different classes of labor 
 named in the miners' scale? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That was clearly the 
 purpose of the motion. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I understood that 
 the entire matter was referred to the 
 committee. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Very well, we 
 will so to-'work on it. 
 
 (The operators named the following 
 committee to consider the 16th clause: 
 Messrs. Lukens, Cutts, Keefer, Duggan 
 and Peters, and the miners the follow- 
 ing committee: F. F. Moorls, Fred 
 Drews, Ed. Seaton, David Dagon and 
 William Hefti.) 
 
 The 17th section of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 the 15th clause of the operators' scale, 
 which only modifies the language 
 slightly. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. PERRY:~I move as a substi- 
 tute for the whole the 12th clause in 
 the miners' proposed scale, which only 
 modifies Mr. Bent's substitute, just 
 slightly. (Secondedl. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— The only difference 
 between the substitute I have offered 
 and last year's agreement is that we 
 request that we be furnished a state- 
 ment along with the money stopped 
 off, as without it we are unable to de- 
 termine off whom this money has been 
 stopped, and how much. Under the 
 present arrangement they take the 
 money in a lump, hand it over, and it 
 does not tell us from whom it Is stop- 
 ped off, or how much from each one, 
 or anything of the kind. In many in- 
 stances even the docking fines are all 
 thrown in one lump. We have no 
 knowledge of how much belongs to 
 thp check weighman's fund, or any- 
 where else. It is an impossibility to 
 keep account of the money received by 
 the union. This is not asking too 
 much. I believe the majority of the 
 inperators are today doing this very 
 thing voluntarily. 
 
 (On the substitute for the whole the 
 operators voted No. the miners voted 
 Yes, and it was lost). 
 
 (On the substitute offered by Mr. 
 Bent the operators voted Yes, the min- 
 ers voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 The 18th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 the 19th clause in the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the min- 
 ers voted No, and the substitute was 
 lost). 
 
 The 19th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move to amend by in- 
 .serting at the beginning: "The sink- 
 ing of shafts," the rest of the section 
 to stand as it has just been read. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The committee on the 
 day wage scale has that matter under 
 consideration. One of the propositions 
 submitted to them is a scale for sink- 
 ers. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If that committee 
 should report against making that 
 scale, you still would not provide a 
 scale for the shaft sinkers. They are 
 outside your jurisdiction. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I will move that Mr. 
 Bent's amendment be laid on the 
 table. (Seconded). 
 
 (On the motion to table the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Yes, and 
 the motion was lost). 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfleld):— I move 
 that action on this section be deferred 
 until we get a report from the special 
 committee. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 The 20th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read, 
 
 MR. BENT:— I wish to amend that 
 section by striking out the words ''two 
 days" and inserting the words "one 
 day." That is now the case in Iowa. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What do they do In 
 Alaska? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They have a con- 
 vention in Iowa now. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I understand that the 
 state president of Iowa said that was 
 the best provision iri their contract. 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the amendment was 
 lost). 
 
 The 21st clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 the 22nd clause of the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted Yes, the miners 
 voted No, and the substitute was lost). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move the adop- 
 tion of the 21st section of the present 
 agreement. (Seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Yes, and the motion was lost). 
 
 The 22nd section of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. PETRRY:— I move to amend that 
 section by adding the word "noon," 
 after the word "mid-forenoon." (Sec- 
 onded and adopted). 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move the adoption of 
 the section as amended. (Seconded and 
 adopted). 
 
 The 2Sd clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I move the adop- 
 tion of the section as read. (Seconded 
 and adopted). 
 
 The 24th clause in the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as~ a substitute 
 the 24th clause of the operators' scale. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 I ^vill explain that this is the same 
 as the one in the present contract just 
 read, except that there is added to this 
 
Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 109 
 
 clause, "There shall be no rules in re- 
 gard to shot firing which will prevent 
 the day men from working the full 
 eight hours." The methods at present 
 existing covering harnessing and un- 
 harnessing, feeding and caring for the 
 mules shall continue at all shafts. 
 There is no change contemplated in re- 
 gard to that. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — In last year's agree- 
 ment somehow or other, the last clause 
 he referred to regarding harnessing and 
 unharnessing the mules crept in — I can- 
 not say unknown, but I will say not 
 understood by the committee, and the 
 interpretation that has been put upon 
 it has certainly worked a hardship. 
 That has been Interpreted to mean that 
 the people who take care of the mules 
 should work at whatever the operators 
 wished to pay them, and to work at 
 whatever time the operators desired 
 them, practically placing them in the 
 list of the engineers, pit bosfees, etc. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I will call your atten- 
 tion to the fact that the scale for mule 
 feeders is in the hands of the special 
 committee. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I want to rise to a 
 point of order to Mr. Bent's amend- 
 ment to that section of the last agree- 
 ment, inasmuch as it excludes the most 
 particular part of a miners' work in 
 the blasting veins, and asks him to per- 
 form that work outsidfe of the eight 
 liours. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Your point of order is 
 not well taken. Any member of this 
 committee has a right to introduce any 
 amendment or substitute that he sees 
 fit, ahd the committee must settle 
 whether they shall be adopted or not. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Replying to Mr. Perry, 
 I wish to say that the record of last 
 year is very explicit on the question he 
 raises. The first proposition was that 
 the method of harnessing and unhar- 
 nessing the mules should continue as 
 it existed at that time. Before action 
 was taken it was pointed out that in at 
 least one sub-district of the state the 
 companies were for that year harness- 
 ing and unharnessing the .mules for 
 the first time, under an arrangement 
 by which they were given the stable- 
 man and mule feeder to work such 
 hours as were necessary for the com- 
 pany to do that. In other words, that 
 he should be in the mine at the end of 
 the day shift and at the beginning of 
 the day shift, and that the operators 
 of ithat district could not adopt the 
 resolution unless it carried with it the 
 provision which enabled them to do 
 that. It is as Impracticable today as 
 it was a year ago to provide that the 
 conditions then existins should con- 
 tinue, unless the machinery goes with 
 it to make it possible. 
 
 MR PERRY:— That is not the only 
 question that is involved in this clause. 
 There are two or three questions In it. 
 First, it gives the pit boss the power 
 and the right to place men In any posi- 
 tions, no matter what positions they 
 
 were hired for. I believe he should 
 have the right to a certain extent; but 
 I don't think he should have it in his 
 power to force any man out of the 
 minfe, and that practically gives him 
 this power. A man may be hired to do 
 a timberman's work, or he may be 
 hired for a driver, a track layer, or any 
 other permanent employment, but the 
 pit boss would have the right under 
 this clause to say that he must go and 
 clean the sump. It may be raining, and 
 the man may be suffering from rheu- 
 matism, yet he is obliged to go or lose 
 his position. 
 
 Then it says the driver's time shall 
 begin at the parting, when his time 
 should begin when he receives the mule. 
 It is a direct violation of our national 
 agreement. Eight hours is a day's 
 work, and a man should not be re- 
 quired to go down and work fifteen 
 minutes in the morning, or five min- 
 utes, before the starting time, free of 
 charge. I want to be plain about this. 
 I for one will never vote that the driv- 
 er shall work more than the eight 
 hours. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I desire to call Mr. 
 Perry's attention to the fact that the 
 rule he objects to is a part of the origi- 
 nal Columbus day wage scale. That 
 provided that the driver's time should 
 commence at the parting at which he 
 receives his car. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have been so in- 
 formed; but this is the first time I 
 knew it. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— I am surprised that 
 Mr. Perry didn't know all about the 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't profess to be 
 an encyclopedia on certain points; oth- 
 ers I understand. ' 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield) :— Bo you 
 expect the timbermen and the track 
 men to commence their day's work 
 when they receive their tools, or when 
 their work co'mmences? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is that question in con- 
 troversy anywhere? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Yes, sir; and I 
 would like to have the operators an- 
 swer that question. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The agreement says 
 that all classes of labor shall work the 
 full eight hours, and the going to and 
 from the working place is to be done on 
 the day hand's own time. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Morris asked for 
 a definition of the eight-hour day. He 
 asked whether the time required for a 
 track layer to carry his tools from the 
 bottom into the place where he is go- 
 ing to work is included or excluded. He 
 also asks about the timbermen. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Does Mr. Bent desire 
 to answer that question? 
 
 MR. BENT:- Not particularly. I 
 am at a loss to see why that question 
 Is asked, because the language of the 
 contract is explicit. I have asked if 
 there was any controversy on this 
 question, and have received no answer. 
 It seems to me that Mr. Russell, the 
 
AFTERNOON SESSION, JYiARCH 4. 
 
 State president, and Mr. Ryan, the 
 state secretary, will know whether there 
 is any controversy over the matter, and 
 if so, what were the decisions given. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— There 
 has been controversy over the matter. 
 MR. LUKENS:— Where. 
 MR. BENT: — It seems to me lan- 
 guage could not be more explicit than 
 the. language stated here, "All classes 
 of day labor are to work the full eight 
 hours, and the going to and coming 
 ' from the respective working places Is 
 to be done on the day hand's own time." 
 I should think that was perfectly 
 clear. I should think that the time of 
 the timberman or the track layer would 
 not begin until he got to the place 
 where his work commenced. If Mr. 
 Russell or Mr. Ryan has heard of this 
 question being up during the past year, 
 we would like to know about it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I want to ask Mr. 
 Bent if I understood him to say that 
 the starting place for a timberman or 
 a track layer should be at the face, or 
 wherever his work of laying track or 
 putting up timbers commenced? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I said that would seem 
 to be the obvious meaning of the con- 
 tract under which we were working, 
 and that would be my position unless 
 something transpired during the year 
 that would cause it to be interpreted 
 differently. > ' 
 
 MR. PERRY:— The point in contro- 
 versy is where the starting place is. It 
 simply safys their time shall begin 
 where they begin their work. If I am 
 d track layer I begin to work "when I 
 get my tools at the box. Prom there I 
 shall have to carry, possibly one hun- 
 dred pounds. We have rail benders, 
 a bucket of spikes, a bar, gauge, ham- 
 mers, hatchet and saws, and carrying 
 them is the hardest part of the day's 
 work. It would be impossible for a 
 man to get from the bottom to the face 
 as a track layer, and make that his 
 ^starting point, because he cannot carry 
 th^se tools. Possibly in some mines 
 where they do not carry" such heavy 
 tools and so many implements he can 
 do it. In the long wall mines, espec- 
 ially, a man must wait for a trip in to 
 carry them. Possibly he has to take 
 ties with him from the bottom of the 
 mine. It would be absurd to say that 
 his place to work begins in at the face 
 where he starts to lay the track. 
 
 There is one other question I wish to 
 ask. In some places I understand they 
 leave the harness outside, and then re- 
 quire the driver to put the harness on 
 the mule down at the stables and be 
 at the place at starting time. Is that 
 a part of the interstate agreement? 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is not a part of 
 the interstate agreement, as I under- 
 stand it. In working out the details a 
 year ago we found there were nearly 
 as many ways to harness mules as 
 there were districts. We only agreed 
 that the present method of harnessing 
 
 and unharnessing mules should con- 
 tinue. 
 
 MR. JONES:— I would like to say a 
 few words in regard to the driver. I 
 may be driving on the parting inside a 
 half or a quarter of a mile, and when 
 I unharness the moile I leave it there. 
 During the night the night men will 
 go in there and bring the harness out. 
 Am I expected to put that harness on 
 the mule before starting time? Am I 
 to donate you this besides the fifteen 
 minutes it takes to go in to the work? 
 MR. BENT:— The question that was 
 up was in regard to the company men, 
 other than drivers. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have looked the 
 matter over and I don't understand 
 that the adopting of the inside day 
 wage scale adopts the resolutions in 
 that agreement. That Is not a part of 
 the scale; that is a resolution. We 
 have not adopted that national agree- 
 ment of 1898; we have only adopted 
 the prices of labor. We say in the 
 scale we have adopted that "the above 
 is based upon an eight-hour work- 
 day." 
 
 MR. BENT:— These are not resolu- 
 tions coming from the interstate con- 
 vention of this year. Mr. Mitchell will 
 agree with me in that. This is a part 
 of the entire work that was done by 
 that day wage scale committee that 
 met in Columbus pursuant to the in- 
 structions of the Chicago convention. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We cannot get 
 away from the eight-hour day. When 
 the eight-hour day was adopted, what 
 it meant was defined. Every conven- 
 tion since has adopted the original 
 resolutions adopted at Columbus, and 
 they have been carried along with it. 
 The Columbus agreement did not re- 
 quire the drivers to harness their mules. 
 It said that their day's work would be- 
 gin at the place where they started to 
 work. The inside drivers start to work 
 at the parting, the outside drivers at 
 the bottom. I think the operators 
 should make provisions for harness- 
 ing and unharnessing the mules. In 
 nearly all tfle mines in the entire coun- 
 try the mules are harnessed and un- 
 harnessed at the company's expense, 
 and they are ready for the drivers 
 when they go there in the morning. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— There is nothing in 
 that scale that says the day men shall 
 carry their tools to and from the work- 
 ing places on their own time. If the 
 company will employ some one to 
 take them in they will not kick so 
 much. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask the scale committee if in any of 
 the districts the company men or 
 track layers are required to carry their 
 tools in to the place they work in their 
 own time? I am of the opinion that 
 the custom has been established that 
 fixes the time the track layers and 
 timbermen start work to be the time 
 and place where ' they take up their 
 
Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 Ill 
 
 tools. I think the operators will all 
 agiee that the hardest part of a track 
 layer's work is carrying his kit of tools 
 to the place he works. The timberman 
 may not have so many tools but it is 
 certainly hard to carry them in. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Are you trying to 
 change the practice in vogue now? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand the 
 custom to be as I explained it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If you are trying to 
 change the custom, we want to And 
 out what the custom is. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The miners contend 
 that when the miners carry their tools 
 to the place where they work they are 
 working, and when the driver is re- 
 quired to harness his mules he is 
 working, and they should not be asked 
 to do this on their own time. I am of 
 the opinion that where the driver is 
 required to have his mule at the place 
 where he gets his empty car the mule 
 ought to be harnessed when he goes 
 after him. 
 
 MR. EDWARDS:— In our place the 
 driver brings his mule clear on the out- 
 side and unharnesses it, an"3' then har- 
 nesses it in the morning when he goes 
 in, and he gets no compensation for it 
 whatever. He does it m his own time. 
 MR. RTAN:— "We contend that that 
 is wrong. I think you will get out of 
 this tangle by referring this matter to 
 a special committee. In a great many 
 places throughout the state the .sub- 
 districts have made arrangements to 
 cover this. A special committee may 
 be able to draft something tha,t will 
 cover this, and that will be uniform for 
 the whole state. You will find when 
 you come to Investigate that a large 
 number of the operators in the state 
 harness the mules for the drivers. 
 
 MR. JONES:— I had a very bad mule 
 to drive, and the fetched my harness 
 out from the parting to the barn. I 
 got down there at the regular time, fif- 
 teen minutes before the starting time. 
 I undertook to harness the mule and it 
 broke away from me and ran off two or 
 three times. The mine manager came 
 along and said: "You can go home. If 
 you don't get your mule m there on 
 time you will be docked." That meant 
 two hours' dock for me, so I went home. 
 It was not my fault that the mule 
 was bad. 
 
 MR, LUKENS:— It seems to me the 
 time of this convention is too valuable 
 to be taken up with a personal griev- 
 ance. I think we ought to proceed 
 with the business in hand. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I think we agree with 
 Mr. Ryan on the advisibility of getting 
 this into the hands of a special commit- 
 tee, have them study the 'different sub- 
 district agreements, and report to the 
 scale committee. We have so many 
 special committees out now that I do 
 not think we should send this one out 
 at the present time. I think we should 
 proceed with the regular order of busi- 
 
 "mR. PERRY:— Last year we con- 
 
 tended that under this agreement the 
 mule feeder was entitled to $2.10 a day 
 in our ..sub-district meeting. The op- 
 erators contended they were not, and 
 we agreed to leave it to our state board 
 and the association's executive board 
 for interpretation. They sent back an 
 interpretation in which they said that . 
 it meant whatever had been done be- 
 fore should be maintained this last 
 year. The year before In our sub-dis- 
 trict we had a sub-district agreement 
 whereby the companies harnessed and 
 unharnessed the mules, but they hired 
 and paid for the mule feeder as thev 
 saw fit. practically putting the mule 
 feeder out of the prganization. Out- 
 side of that there is nothing so much 
 in the clause we object to. That one 
 thing I positively refuse to vote for. 
 This year we propose that the mule 
 feeder shall work as the rest of the 
 men work, or something near it, and 
 we will make a scale for him. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Perry will admit 
 that the condition under which that 
 agreement was made was that we be 
 given this feeder. A year ago we 
 agreed that this should carry with it 
 the method about the feeders. The op- 
 erators of that field today are not spec- 
 ifying whether you shall have jurisdic- 
 tion over the ^stablemen or not. We 
 say we cannot feed and harness the 
 mules unless we be given a man to do 
 it at the proper hours. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- That is all right un- 
 der the interpretation; but you people 
 run in the method the price you pay a 
 man. I contend the method has noth- 
 ing to do with it. I contend the inter- 
 pretation was wrong, and if that same 
 interpretation will be placed on it this 
 year we cannot agree to ,it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand that 
 the rule in Illinois now is to have a 
 man to harness and unharness the 
 mules. In northern Illinois it appears 
 they have employed stablemen 
 at less than $2.10 a day, "although the 
 scale says, "All other men $2.10 a day." 
 I don't understand that the adoption of 
 any agreement would prevent us from 
 making a scale for stablemen. In 
 fact, we have a special committee out 
 now fixing the price for that class of 
 labor. Do you not understand our 
 agreement to mean that ^all inside day 
 labor shall receive $2.10 a day unless 
 the scale .specifies that a higher rate 
 shall be paid-? They are paying less 
 than $2.10 for the stablemen in the 
 third vein field. Do you understand 
 that that is permissible under our 
 agreement? 
 
 MR. BENT:— It was a part of the 
 specific provision of the state agree- 
 ment here last year that in perpetuat- 
 ing the method of harnessing and un- 
 harnessing the mules it should perpet- 
 uate the conditions pertaining to the 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do I understand that 
 if we adopt that part of the agreement 
 which reads, "The methods at present 
 
112 
 
 Afternoon Session, Makch 4. 
 
 existing covering the harnessing and 
 unharnessing of the mules and caring 
 for and feeding them, shall be contin- 
 ued throughout the next scale year," 
 and we go back to the sub-djetricts 
 without having a scale of wages made 
 here for the mule feeder, would you 
 claim, as you did last year, that that 
 ■word "method" meant that we could 
 not set the price in the sub-d^strict? 
 Didn't you contend that that fastened 
 upon us the 15th and 16th_clauses of our 
 last year's agreement in the sub-dis- 
 trict? That said the company should 
 harness and unharness the mules. 
 Then it went on to say that we had no 
 jurisdiction over the mule feeders, but 
 you should set the price you saw fit. 
 Didn't you contend that the word 
 "method" fastened that condition on 
 us? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir: and when it 
 went to the officers of the two organi- 
 zations that was the interpretation put 
 upon It. It is an open question now 
 to fix. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do you mean it will 
 prevail another year if this caluse is 
 adopted again this year? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir; unless other 
 provision is made. 
 
 MR. MITCHELiL:— You cannot make 
 arrangements in your sub-districts 
 that will change the national agree- 
 ment. We cannot, under the powers 
 given us, reduce v, the prices fixed 
 by the interstate convention. We have 
 no authority to do that; we cannot do 
 U, either by sub-district agreement or 
 district agreement. The national con- 
 vention fixes the price for inside daj' 
 labor at $2.10; for the classes of labor 
 that are not specifically mentioned we 
 say, "All other day labor $2.10 per 
 day." 
 
 MR. BENT:— That was not the con- 
 struction of the Columbus dav wage 
 scale given by President Mitchell this 
 morning, in which he claimed that cer- 
 tain men not specifically mentioned 
 could be rated at higher than $2.10. 
 We claim no power in the sub-district 
 that is not given us by the state and 
 national agreements. WTien the matter 
 is settled here there will be no friction 
 about It In the sub-districts. The rec- 
 ord shows plainly what was meant by 
 that arrangement last year. It must 
 be settled here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I cannot see where Mr. 
 Bent and Mr. Perry are very wide apart 
 on this matter. They both take the 
 position that it must be settled here. 
 I think you took the wrong position 
 in the sub-district meeting last year. 
 Instead of settling this matter as you 
 were authorized to do by the state 
 agreement you referred It back for In- 
 terpretation to the two executive 
 boards. Article 16 of your present sub- 
 district agreement In the third vein 
 reads like this: 
 
 "The Interpretation of article 24 of 
 the state contract, as It relates to 
 articles IB and 17 of the sub-district 
 
 agreement of the past year is referred 
 to the state officers of the U. M. W. of 
 A. and the Illinois Coal Operators' As- 
 sociation." 
 
 Instead of referring that back for 
 interpretation, as you did, It strikes me 
 this matter should have been settled 
 under the clause Mr. Perry now. wants 
 settled definitely. When the sub-dis- 
 trict meeting in the third vein field 
 adjourned without taking any definite 
 action, the executive boar'Ss could do 
 nothing else except to decide that that 
 arrangement was still in force. You 
 did not take advantage of the clause 
 to settle it in your own meeting, there- 
 fore I agree with Mr. Perry that this 
 thing should be settled here. 
 MR. BENT:— So do I agree with him. 
 (On the substitute offered bv Mr. 
 Bent the operators voted Aye, th? 
 miners voted No, and It was lost.) 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— I move that we re- 
 fer the ■ twenty-fourth clause of the 
 present state agreement to a special 
 joint committee. (Seconded and adopt- 
 ed.) 
 
 The following committee was select- 
 ed: For the miners, Messrs. Jones, 
 Bagwill and Perry. For the operators, 
 Messrs. Secor, Crabb and Duggan. 
 
 The 25th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the 
 scale for Mission field be referred to a 
 committee, composed of Mr. Cutts and 
 Mr. Cragmyle to report to the scale 
 committee tomorrow. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— The Mission field, as 
 you gentlemen know, is controlled by 
 the Butler brothers. They are the 
 lessees there and I should hardly- be in 
 a position to bind them by any agree- 
 ment I might make here. I suggest that 
 a settlement can be made much better 
 in the Danville district than it can 
 here. It is, of course, dependent to a 
 large degree on the day-wage scale 
 that IS adopted here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— This will not prevent 
 you and Mr. Cragmyle from conslder- 
 mg the matter; then if you wish to 
 recommend that we refer it back it 
 will be all right. 
 
 MR. CUTTS :-That will be perfectly 
 satisfactory to me. 
 
 MR GARRISON:— We have changed 
 one of the names on our committee to 
 consider the powder question. Our 
 members of that committee now ai-e 
 Messrs, Lukens, Wilson (representing 
 Mr. Peabody) and Mr. Garrison 
 
 The 26th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read: »6'<=c 
 
 »H^^ ,,^?^'^=-^ ™°'^e that It be 
 adopted. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield) :— I offer 
 as a substitute the lEth clause of the 
 miners agreement. (Seconded.) 
 
 (On the substitute offered by Mr 
 Morris, the operators voted No «ie 
 
 \^^^ ^^!^. "^^- ^""i It was lost.) 
 MR. RTAN:-A request has been 
 
Afternoon Session, March i. 
 
 113 
 
 made that this section be deferred for 
 the present. 
 
 The 27th^clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BAGWIL.L.:— I move the ajiop- 
 tion of that section. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. DREWS:— I would like to un- 
 derstand here if this means that the 
 miners will have to pay for the teajm 
 that hauls the injured miners home? ' 
 It is contended by the operators in 
 our district that the miners should pay 
 for the team, and, if I am correctly 
 informed, they presented a, bill of $16 
 to one local and asked that it be paid. 
 MR. BENT:— "We will put it in the 
 record that It does not mean any such 
 thing. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— What operator put in 
 ■ such a bill as that? 
 
 MR. DREWS:— An operator in the 
 Danville sub-district, if I am informed 
 correctly. 
 
 MR. TOPHAM:— In the' Danville dis- 
 trict the operators gave us the am- 
 bulance two or three years ago, with 
 the understanding tljat we furnish a 
 team. I believe that was the first 
 ambulance furnished by an operator in 
 the state of Illinois. We were glad to 
 have the ambulance on that condition. 
 Since the last agreement there has been 
 considerable trouble. Some of our min- 
 ers have paid for the hauling of the 
 ambulance as the first agreement pro- 
 vided. Since the last a.greement some 
 miners have refused to pay for it,- but 
 others have paid the bills. The ques- 
 tion now is whether the miners have a 
 right to continue furnishing a team to 
 haul the ambulance or whether the 
 operator shall do that. 
 
 MR. KEBFER:— About three_ year.s 
 ago, if J recollect the date right, the 
 miners of the Danville district, through 
 their district president, asked the 
 operators whether or not they could 
 furnish them any suitable ambulance, 
 an ambulance such as is used by muni- 
 cipalities, for taking care of injured 
 people. The matter was under discus- 
 sion for some time. The operators 
 hardly felt like setting "a pace for 
 everybody and putting $275 or $300 in 
 an ambulance. The matter was pressed 
 hard by the district officers, and after 
 a number of conferences the .operators 
 consented to donate the ambulance to 
 the miners if they would house it and 
 furnish a team to haul It from the 
 mines where the accident happened to 
 the homes of the injured men or to 
 the hospital. The ambulance was pur- 
 chased at a cost of $300. The miners 
 at that time were not only willing to 
 furnish the teams to haul the ambulr 
 ance, but were exceedingly anxious to 
 do it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is that a 99-year con- 
 tract? 
 
 IVTR. KEEPER:— I don't know that 
 any limit was set to it. I never knew 
 that It was contemplated at that time 
 that they would ask us to furnish the 
 teams any more than it was contem- 
 
 plated by us to ask them to pay us for 
 the ambulance we furnished. It was i 
 matter of much surprise to us last sum- 
 mer when some of the miners refused 
 to continue bearing their share of the 
 contract. I understand that some of 
 them have right along taken their part, 
 while others have refused. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- How do you interpret 
 the clause in the present contract? 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— Thet clause as it is 
 there permits an operator to take home 
 a man with a broken back in a dray 
 and I understand that it is done. Be- 
 fore this was ever contemplE^ted by 
 the miners or the operators in any of 
 their state meetings the ambulance 
 agreement was entered into in the Dan- 
 ville district. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say it used 
 to be done in years gone by, and I went 
 through the experience myself on a 
 prop wagon, but I did riot think it was 
 being done now. 
 
 MR. KENNBR:— I remember when 
 our sub-district president was trying t' 
 get the ambulance. President Topham 
 showed me letters he received oil the 
 subject, but there was nothing in it 
 that said who should keep up the team. 
 Sometime in January, at the place 
 where I work, a bill for $16 came in 
 and a meeting was called, and I made 
 a motion that we pay that bill. That 
 was carried. I understand now that 
 another local in Himrod paid one or 
 two ambulances' bills, but other locals 
 had not paid them. The matter of 
 paying for the team was a new thing 
 sprung on the men. If it was an 
 agreement it was certainly kept quiet 
 from the men until the time came tn 
 pay the bills. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I believe there 
 was some such agreement made. How- 
 ever we take the position that that 
 agreement, whatever it was, was done 
 away with by the adoption of the 
 present agreement. That district cov- 
 ers a territory in which there are 
 mines that employ in the neighborhood 
 of two thousand men. Anybody who 
 !■? acquainted with the Danville district 
 knows that the ambulance is a very 
 busy article in that district. Mr. 
 Keef er says only a few of the men have 
 been kicking. I say there have been 
 kicks frorfi all the locals. 
 MR. KEEPER:— I didn't say that. 
 MR. WILSON:- Then I take that 
 back. . The contract says specifically 
 that the operators shall furnish a suit- 
 able ambulance; not a dray. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire to ask vou if 
 you understand that the operators of 
 the Danville district comply with this 
 clause in the agreement, by providing 
 one ambulance for the entire district? 
 MR. WILSON:— No; I certainly do 
 not. I made that statement to offset 
 the statement that they went to such 
 an expense to furnish an ambulance. 
 Several companies were interested in 
 the purchase of that ambulance. Tlie 
 miners have had that ambulance re- 
 
Hi 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, Maxch 4. 
 
 paired at an expense of nearly one 
 hundred dollars. They have had rub- 
 ber tires put on it a'mong other things. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— I don't wa.nt to be 
 understood as making an argument on 
 the ambulance question at all. I sim- 
 ply tried to state the facts as they 
 were. They have not been contradict- 
 ed except by Mr. Keliner. He says 
 sending the bills to the miners was a 
 new thing sprung on them. That is not 
 so. At no time have any of the bills 
 been sent to the company. I am not 
 making an argument, I am stating the 
 facts as they occurred. I am not try- 
 , Ing to show any large-heartedness, or 
 anything of that sort; it is the miners' 
 proposition to us that I have been 
 speaking of. They made their proposi- 
 tion through their district president. 
 It was brought up repeatedly. They 
 asked us if, in consideration of their 
 housing that ambulance and furnish- 
 ing the teams, we would buy a regular 
 ambulance to take care of the men, 
 and we finally agreed to do it. 
 
 MR. KENNER:— It might not be a 
 new thing, but the bill I referred to 
 was dated three years back. I happen- 
 ed to be president of the local, and I 
 ruled a motion out of order to allow 
 the bill. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— At what mines was 
 that three-years-old bill? 
 
 MR. KENNER:— At Pawnee. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— I recollect that bill 
 and it was not three years old; it was 
 only three months. Mr. Topham came 
 to us and asked us to donate more 
 money to put on the rubber tires, and 
 we agreed to do so, but called his at- 
 tention to -the fact that at some of the 
 locals the men had refused to take their 
 share of the expense of furnishing .a 
 team for it. 
 
 MR. KENNER:— One of the persons 
 that was mentioned in the bill as hav- 
 ing been hauled in that ambulance cer- 
 tainly met the accident over two' years 
 ago. This was discussed In the meet- 
 ing, and the checkweighman said the 
 Pawnee mine had never i>aid a cent 
 towards hauling that ambulance. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— The remarEs that are 
 before the house have nothing to do 
 with the question. What we want is 
 an interpretation of that clause. Doea 
 It mean that the operators shall f urnl.i=h 
 the ambulance in its entirety? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It Is a state law. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 don't ffiink we will 
 accept that. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— The law requires us 
 to furnish a conveyance. It does not 
 specify an ambulance such as hospitals 
 or undertakers use. If it is expected 
 of us to furnish an ambulance of that 
 character, and to pay for the team.« 
 and all other expenses connected with 
 it, it is not right to expect it of us 
 alone. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- Nobody here un- 
 derstands that the operators are to 
 furnish merely a conveyance and leave 
 it at the mines. It was understood 
 
 tnat they were to have the men taken 
 home, and if it does not mean that the 
 ambulance will do our p'eople no good 
 
 MR. BBNT:—I think It Is pretty easy 
 to answer Mr. Wilson. It is obligatory 
 upon the companies to furnish either 
 an ambulance or some other suitable 
 conveyance with a team to take the 
 men home. We are not under obliga- 
 tions to use such an ambulance as Mr. 
 Keefer speaks of, and they have a 
 right to discontinue that unless there 
 is some local arrangement to keep it 
 up. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The company had 
 no right to require the men to furnish 
 the team to haul the conveyance. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:- The company did 
 not require that the miners furnish the 
 team under this contract. It was the 
 old contract I am speaking of. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I assure you that if 
 the Danville operators withdraw the 
 ambulance they now have in that field, 
 they will put one in each mine down 
 there. 
 
 MR. PERRY :-«-I want to know what 
 you mean by the word "provide?" I 
 think if you will take that out of there 
 the clause will be all right. I have 
 known of cases, or heard of them, 
 where they have no ambulance and 
 the company keeps none. If a man is 
 hurt they will send in a boy to the 
 town, or telephone if the wires don't 
 happen to be down, to some livery 
 stable, and request the liveryman, I'o 
 send out and get them, and It may be 
 hours before the conveyance comes. 
 That word "provide," does not say that 
 they shall have the ambulance there. 
 It means that they will bear the ex- 
 pense of that ambulance when It is 
 provided. That is the interpretation 
 that some people have placed on that 
 section. Does it mean that, or does it 
 mean that they shajl have this con- 
 veyance at the mines, at hand, with 
 sufficient oil, blankets, and bandages' 
 I move that the word "provide" be 
 stricken out. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That question was fully 
 ventilated when this section was agreed 
 upon. There are companies so small 
 that they could not consistently keep 
 an ambulance of their own, but were 
 under obligations to provide it. 
 
 MR. CRABB:— I understand that the 
 law requires that a suitable conveyance 
 be furnished. When a man is injured 
 about a mine I don't think anyone feels 
 worse, or sympathizes more with the 
 man and his family than the operator 
 does. I don't know of a single case in 
 the state of Illinois where all means 
 nave not been taken to get an injured 
 naan home as rapidly and as comfort- 
 ably as possible. There are mines that 
 are situated very close to the towns 
 where a liveryman could get the in- 
 jured man home quicker than any con- 
 veyance that might be stored at the 
 mine. Prom the arguments brought up 
 here some people might think the oper- 
 ators were a queer set of men. I don't 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 4. 
 
 115 
 
 think there is any Intention on the part 
 of the operators to haul an injured 
 man home on a dray. I think the 
 resolution In last year's agreement is 
 clear and specific. It says that the 
 op^ators shall provide a suitable con- 
 veyance and take the injured men 
 home at the expense of thei company. 
 I believe the operators intend to live 
 up to the spirit as well as the letter 
 of thaj; a^rreiement. Unless it can be 
 shown that there are some persons try- 
 ing to avoid last year's agreement, I 
 don't think that section should be 
 changed. I don't think they ought to 
 throw that odium on the operators. 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— I would like to 
 ask if you consider a wagon that they 
 haul coal in around the mines a suit- 
 able conveyance to take an injured man 
 to his home? 
 
 MR. CRABB:— No, sir; we don't. 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— I has been done. 
 
 MR. CRABB: — I can imagine that a 
 wagon, being at the mine when the 
 man was hurt, and being made com- 
 fortable by putting hay or straw or 
 mattresses or a cot in it, would enable 
 them to take the man home more 
 rapidly than if they got a carriage or 
 hitched up an ambulance that might 
 be at the mines. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Sympathy is not ex- 
 pressed at all mines as you say you 
 would express it. I have seen hundreds 
 of men carried home with broken, limbs 
 in prop wagons, without mattresses or 
 blankets or anything else. I was car- 
 ried home that way myself. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Do you know of any 
 cases since the last agreement? 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— I do. I know of 
 a man that was hauled home on a coal 
 wagon, and he yelled at every step the 
 mules took. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I know of two or 
 three different mines where they have 
 neither blankets, bandages, or anything 
 to take care of a man if he is brought 
 up from the mine's injured. Two 
 months ago at Ladd a man was 
 brought up badly injured, and they 
 didn't even have a blanket to put over 
 him. The men stripped off their coats 
 to cover him from the cold. That has 
 been since Mr. Dalzell has owned that 
 mine. In the valley the question I 
 raised is one we want defined. There 
 are three or four mines, some of them 
 out two or three miles from the Valley, 
 and they havei one ambulance. That 
 they leave in the town. We also have 
 a horse. If a man is hurt out at No. 
 5 shaft they will call up on the 'phone 
 — if the wire is in working order, which 
 is about half the time— and sometimes 
 they do not get the ambulance out until 
 the afternoon, even when, the man is 
 hurt In the forenoon. It that living up 
 to the agreement? 
 
 MR. RTAN:— It certainly is not. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do I understand that 
 these ambulances shall be kept at the 
 mines or where they can be got at in a 
 reasonable time? Or does It mean that 
 
 a man that owns a number of mines 
 can put it at a central mine and make 
 it do for all the mines, no matter how 
 far apart they may be? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I want to correct 
 the statement I made awhile ago. I 
 thought the state law did say that we 
 should provide either an ambulance or 
 a suitable conveyance. It does not say 
 either. There Is no reference to either 
 ambulance or conveyance in the law. I 
 thought there was when I made the 
 answer I did awhile ago. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We would like to have 
 some of the operators define this sec- 
 tion as they understand it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — If a man is injured 
 in the mines the company must use 
 every possible means to quickly get an 
 ambulance or conveyance to the mine 
 to take the man to his home or a 
 hospital, at the company's expense. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Your construction does 
 not jibe with the clause in the agree- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I contend they 
 should keep the bandages and blankets 
 right at the mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Taylor this question: Take Spring 
 Valley as an illustration. If a man 
 is hurt at No. 5 shaft, and they have 
 to send to the city for the ambulance, 
 they may not be able to get it out there 
 under three hours if they have to send 
 a hoy for it. Is that living up to this 
 agreement? 
 MR. TAYLOR:— No. 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Perry the operators voted No. the 
 miners voted Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 The 28th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The operators are sat- 
 isfied to give that assurance to the 
 miners again, wishing only to 
 qualify it in a few instances in the 
 state, in a few cases of mines where 
 the men work both machines and by 
 hand. If the same turn, actually is 
 given both to the machine men and the 
 pick men, the machine men will make 
 less wages than the others on account 
 of the machine differential. We wish 
 to qualify that by adding the following 
 clause: 
 
 "In mines where there is both hand 
 and machine mining, 'an eqiial turn' 
 shall mean approximately the same 
 turn to each man in the machine part 
 of the mine, and approximately the 
 same turn to each man doing hand 
 work, but not necessarily the sam,e to 
 each hand miner as to eaph man work- 
 ing with the machine." 
 
 I move the adoption of the section 
 with this amendment. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is the purpose of 
 your amendment to provide that a 
 hand miner shall not receive the same 
 number of cars that a machine miner 
 would receive in the same mine? 
 
 MR. BENT: — So as to equalize their 
 wages and not do injustice by having 
 the same number of cars. 
 
116 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Has there been 
 any complaint on that score from any 
 place In the state? 
 
 MR. RICfi:— The effect of the' at- 
 tempted enforcement on the part of the 
 miners was to stop our machines. The 
 machine m^en said if they could 
 not make as much wag-es as the hand 
 miners they would refuse to work with 
 the machines. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— How long have you 
 been working the machines? 
 
 MR. RICE:- Since the mines were 
 opened. This question did not come 
 up, tp my knowledge, until last sum- 
 mer. The machines had been used In 
 different portions of the mine. For a 
 period we stopped using them in our 
 upper seam and used them in the lower 
 seam, and then the question came to a 
 head* when we moved them back again 
 Into the upper seam. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— When they worked 
 in the upper seam before did they get 
 the extra turn? 
 
 MR. RICE:— I think they did. It is 
 not material, however, as the machine 
 men were able to get all they could 
 load, and It was sufflcient. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— This belongs to the 
 mine I represent. The machines, as 
 Mr. Rice has saad, have been in the 
 - mines ever since they have bfeen in 
 operation. In the lower vein I will 
 agree that the men got all that they 
 could do. In the ton vein they did 
 not. Up until about six months ago 
 they had never, as I know of, (and I 
 have been on the pit committee for a 
 year straight) had any occasion ifor an 
 extra turn for the machine. That 
 means simply that they had four men 
 working after the machine, and they 
 wanted to give those four men five 
 men's turns. In other words, the ma- 
 chine men were to get a turn and a 
 quarter to the pickmen's turn. It 
 meant another advantage for the ma- 
 chine men over the pick men. 
 
 MR. RICE:— "Would it be possible to 
 obtain men under other conditions? 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— It is almost impos- 
 sible to maintain machine men in that 
 coal under any conditions for, if I am 
 Informed right, it is a very heavy coal 
 to mine with the machines. 
 
 MR. RICE:— I think you are mis- 
 taken about that. My personal knowl- 
 edge is that the machine works very 
 well in it. At the time this disagree- 
 ment occurred the machine men as- 
 sured us that they were perfectly satis- 
 fled with having sufficient extra turn 
 to compensate them for the difference 
 in the rate. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The intent of this 
 agreement all the tirtxe has not been an 
 even turn, but a turn that would give 
 equal opportunities to the miners. No 
 advantage- to the pick men, no advan- 
 tage to the machine men, is what Is 
 meant. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Is a machine entitled 
 to a turn? 
 
 MR. BENT:— A machine miner Is. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— I mean the machine 
 itself. Is it entitled to a turn? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Not the instrument 
 itself? 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Certainly. , 
 
 MR. RICE: — I can answer that. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I ask Mr. Bent; I 
 didn't ask you. He made the amend- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I made the motion for 
 the association. I don't know anything 
 about machine mines and you kiTOw I 
 don't. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I will ask Mr. Rice the 
 question. 
 
 MR. RICE: — We are satisfied that 
 there should be five cars furnished to 
 a squad of four men working a ma- 
 chine to four cars furnished to as 
 many pick miners. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Then you contend that 
 the machine itself is entitled to a turn. 
 
 MR. RICE:— If you will put it that 
 way. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Did you not ask that 
 fiat footed at the Cardiff mine? 
 
 MR. RICE:— I did. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— And I contended that 
 it should not have It? 
 
 MR. RICE: — Mr. Russell ruled we 
 should be entitled to it if the same 
 method was employed elsewhere. We 
 said it was, and he decided that we 
 were entitled to it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't agree with Mr. 
 Rice that we agreed the machine was 
 entitled to a turn. We recommended 
 that the miners resume work under 
 former conditions so that the mines 
 should not be tied up. 
 
 MR. RICE:- That was the effect of 
 it, but I can not see that there is any 
 justice at all in the contention of Mr. 
 Ryan in the matter. As Mr. Bent has 
 stated, it means that we should give 
 an equal opportunity in the earning 
 power of the machine miners as com- 
 pared with the pick miners, and when 
 you allow them to obtain only an equal 
 number of cars they do not have that 
 opportunity. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I am not objecting to 
 the amendment. I only want these 
 things brought out here. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't believe 
 there are many mines In the state of 
 Illinois where they work both by ma- 
 chine and by hand. Tour effort is to 
 try to equalize the earnings of the 
 men. 
 
 MR. RICE:— That Is correct. 
 
 MR. ROGERS:— I am willing to agree 
 to that, but I don't agree to giving a 
 turn for the machine. 
 
 MR. RICE:— That came . as near as 
 we could get to It practically in that 
 particular discussion. I think it was 
 more a matter of principle on the part 
 of the miners in this contention, be- 
 cause they all have all they want to do. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield) :— I move 
 as a substitute the 17th clause of the 
 miners' agreement. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is a part of th.> 
 motion, already. We accept that clause 
 
Aftbrnoon Session, March 4. 
 
 117 
 
 ■word for word as read. The amend- 
 ment was to provide for the machine 
 question. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Do you accept the 
 clause in our asreement with the 
 amendment offered by yourself? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— These cross ques- 
 tions did not catch us; the traps you 
 are fixing up didn't catch the mouse 
 this time. We will vote straight on 
 the amendment and then take up the 
 clause. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I understood that we 
 were willing to vote on the amendment 
 as the operators had put it by includ- 
 ing our 17th clause with it, and they 
 accepted it. We are ready to vote on 
 that. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move to amend the 
 17th clause of the miners' agreement by 
 striking out the words "mine-laborer." 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Are you ready to vote? 
 
 MR. BENT:- What amendment are 
 you voting on? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The substitute offered 
 by Mr. Morris, which you accepted. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I repudiate the accept- 
 ance. 
 
 (On the substitute offered by, Mr. 
 Morris the operators voted No, the 
 miners voted Yes, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. KNOLLMAN:— I would like to 
 ask the operators what they mean by 
 excluding the mine laborers. They say 
 they want to give an equal chance. 
 Then why do they exclude the mine 
 laborers? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That motion has been 
 lost; it is not before the committee. 
 
 (On Mr. Bent's motion the operators 
 voted Yes, the miners voted No, and 
 it wa.=i carried). , 
 
 The 29th clause of the present agree- 
 ment was read. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— T move you that we 
 defer action on this clause until after 
 we have settled all other clauses. (Sec- 
 onded and carriedi. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:—! would like to re- 
 port for the committee on inside day 
 wage scale; I will report for the oper- 
 ators. We agreed to make our report 
 in two sections. The contention of the 
 committee was on the operators' side, 
 an(3l it was admitted by the miners, as 
 I understand it, that all the classes of 
 inside day labor specifically set forth 
 in the Columbus scale was the scale 
 under this agreement. W^e took up 
 especially the special labor set forth 
 in the ipiners' scale, but were unable 
 to agree, and decided to bring the 
 question of these special classes back 
 to this committee and have it discuss- 
 ed and get further light upon it. We 
 will then be willing to take it up agam. 
 We could not agree on the motormen 
 and that class of labor, as the condi- 
 tions were so varied we were not any- 
 where near reaching an equitable 
 scale. 
 
 MR REYNOLDS:— The ramers have 
 contended that the special classes 
 mentioned in our scale do not come un- 
 der the Columbus agreement, that is, 
 
 as $2.10 a day men, where it says: "All 
 other inside day labor $2.10." Just as 
 Mr. Taylor has said, we have not been 
 able to agree upon the different classes 
 of labor not mentioned in the Colum- 
 bus scale. There is some little mis- 
 understanding, too, in regard to the 
 Columbus agreement. The miners are 
 in favor of re-adopting the clause in 
 the last state agreement, and they ob- 
 jected to that part of it included in the 
 11th clause. They object to that clause. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Let me correct Mr. 
 Reynolds. We didn't object to thalt. 
 He made the statement that where 
 boys were employed they are not to be 
 paid less than $2.10 a day. We agreed 
 with him that if a boy drove he should 
 not receive less than $2.10 a day, and 
 we offered to put that in specifically. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— We claimed that 
 this covered the whole thing, and could 
 see no reason why the operators should 
 object to it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I cannot see why the 
 operators should object to that clause 
 as it reads now. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Because it leaves it 
 open for contention in the sub-district 
 Now if you mean what you say, that 
 you want to try to protect the organi- 
 zation from allowing boys to be em- 
 ployed for less than $2.10 a day, we 
 will agree to it. We will agree to put 
 in "boy drivers not to be paid less than 
 $2.io a day." If it means that . we 
 ought to say so in the agreement. If 
 it means something else, we don't want 
 the section. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield) :— I be- 
 lieve that was put in a year ago to 
 prevent Mr. Bent from employing boys 
 for less than $2.10. 
 
 MR. BENT:— He stopped all right. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That part of 
 the agreement of last year which says, 
 "but in no case shall less than $2.10 
 be paid for drivers," caused, I might 
 sayC unending contention in some of 
 the sub-districts. The drivfers used it 
 as an argument for the advancement 
 of their wages beyond $2.10, stating 
 that $2.10 was merely the minimum 
 that should be paid them. I know that 
 is how it was used in the C. ,& A. sub- 
 distriet. We want to get away from 
 that if we can. We don't want to go 
 back to the district meetings and have 
 to argue this out for a day or two with 
 them. We ought not to be forced to 
 do it. It is understood that where boys 
 are employed as drivers the scale rate, 
 $2.10, shall be paid them. That is 
 suflicient, or should be, to satisfy the 
 miners. That is a guarantee that no- 
 body shall receive less than $2.10 a day 
 for driving. This will do away with 
 all the discussion at the district meet- 
 ings as to what drivers' wages are. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Is it not a fact that 
 you and your drivers in that locality 
 have come to an understanding regard- 
 ing this clause of $2.10 a day? 
 
118 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 4, 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— In what re- 
 spect do you mean? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— That they should not 
 demand in the sub-districts more than 
 $2.10 a day. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We did final- 
 ly, but we don't want to have to argue 
 it out again. "We don't want to take 
 away anything with us from here that 
 is going to be the cause of unending 
 talk and argument when we go into 
 sub-district meetings. I think we are 
 perfectly justified in that. We have 
 too much of it in these meetings. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Last year Mr. 
 Bent was paying 75 cents for one driv- 
 er. It specified in there $2.10 for driv- 
 ers. He agrees to it there. The drivers 
 were to get no less than_|2.10. 
 
 MR. BENT:— When there Ts not a man 
 In our district paying less than $2.10 
 a day to a single driver, I should think 
 you would lose all interest in it. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— We are afraid 
 you will fall back. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS :— I believe there 
 has been as much trouble in re- 
 gard to the driver case in Belleville 
 as in any other district in the state. I 
 believe there are as many different 
 scales paid there as in any other dis- 
 trict in Illinois, but there has never 
 been any question raised about it in 
 the sub-district meetings. I attended 
 the sub-district convention in the 
 Seventh district, and it was never men- 
 tioned there. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I will say I. have 
 never heard it raised. It is a surprise 
 to me. I have never heard of it being 
 used in that way until today. I be- 
 lieved last year, and I believe yet, that 
 the reason the clause was inserted was 
 that in the northern field, previous to 
 that time, they had been hiring boys, 
 and also in a certain section of south- 
 ern Illinois they were hiring boys to 
 drive between the partings, and a price 
 had been made for those boys that 
 ranged between 50 cents and $1.50 a 
 day. It was to overcome that practice 
 that the section spoken of was includ- 
 ed in our last year's agreement. If it 
 has been used in any other way I 
 know nothing of it, and I certainly 
 would not have agreed to its being 
 used in any other manner. I believed 
 that was what it was inserted for, and 
 I believe the Columbus agreement is 
 plain enough. The clause does pro- 
 vide that the inside day wage scale 
 authorized by the present agreement, 
 the Columbus scale of 1898, is thfe agree- 
 ment that shall govern. It was only 
 to overcome the practice of hiring boya 
 that the $2.10 clause was Inserted. It 
 was for the same purpose that the 
 $1.80 feature was inserted in the same 
 agreement to govern the top situation, 
 nothing more and nothing less. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The operators 
 desire to have the Columbus day wage 
 scale embodied in their state agree- 
 ment in such a way that it cannot be 
 misconstrued when we go away from 
 
 here, and If the only purpose in adding 
 that part which the operators are 
 now objecting to, and which was a part 
 of the agreement last year, is to cor- 
 rect this practice of hiring boys, then 
 this serves the purpose far better than 
 that, for it plainly sets forth the ob- 
 ject of it. It will set at rest, when we 
 go back, any attempt on the part of the 
 drivers or anybody else, to raise their 
 scale of wages and increase it over and 
 above the Columbus scale. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- 1 believe I can see 
 the object of the operators in making 
 this contention. I believe' there is a 
 concerted action on the part of the 
 operators in this state to take away 
 from the drivers and day men the prem- 
 ium they have given them in the past, 
 I believe this is the first move in that 
 direction. I want to ma;ke the state- 
 ment here that I made before the 
 scale committee in Indianapolis. I 
 think it is no more than right that the 
 statement should be made to the oper- 
 ators and miners assembled her. I 
 will again reiterate my statement that 
 the operators are responsible for this 
 condition in the state of Illinois, where 
 the conraition exists. When the Colum- 
 bus scale was made and agreed to it 
 provided that drivers should be paid 
 $1.75 per day. We went out into the 
 state and made an attempt to enforce 
 that agreement, and did ejiforce it. In 
 some places it took us almost two 
 weeks to enforce it, but we did it, and 
 then the operators gave what they 
 were pleased to term a premium to 
 the drivers and some of the other day 
 men. That premium is being paid to- 
 day in several districts, and I believe 
 you are now trying to take that away 
 from them. Whether that is your ob- 
 ject or not, I wish to make the same 
 statement here that I did in Indianap- 
 olis, that if the Columbus agreement Is 
 adopted here, as it certainly should be, 
 we will Aiforce it with the strength of 
 our organization. But if you attempt 
 in any manner to take from the drive- 
 ers and other day men the premium 
 which you have voluntarily given to 
 them, you will be up against it, and 
 you need not call upon this organisa- 
 tion to assist you, because we will not 
 do it. If a fight is made lo take away 
 that premium, I want to say to the 
 operators at the places where this 
 premium is paid, that tEe operators 
 and miners will be the parties* to flght 
 it out; it will not be the organization; 
 the organization will have nothing to 
 do wih it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- The statement Mr. 
 Russell has just made is the statement 
 he made before the sub-scale commit- 
 tee in Indianapolis. It is only fair to 
 us all that the several statements that 
 were made there be also made matters 
 of record here. At the time in Indian- 
 apolis when we had reached the part- 
 ing of the roads, when Pennsylvania 
 and Ohio had a settlement, and it was 
 
 I 
 
Afternoon Session, March 4. 
 
 119 
 
 evident that unless we did agree the 
 interstate movement itself was in dan- 
 ger, the Illinois operators voted No. 
 and I asked before that vote was re- 
 corded that I be allowed to confer with 
 the operators' association of Illinois. 
 I had the conference, and in that con- 
 ference they asked what had been dOne. 
 if anything, about the inside day wage 
 scale. I said in the renewing, of the 
 interstate agreement would carry with 
 it the Columbus scale of 1898, plus 20 
 per cent. They finally decided that if 
 the officials of the organization would 
 plainly state that in re-aflirming the 
 contract it carried with it the inside 
 day wage sc^le, we should vote yes. 
 I went before the committee and ask- 
 ed that the Columbus day wage scale 
 be read. This was done Then I ask- 
 ed Mr. Mitchell if, in re-affirming that 
 interstate agreement, it carried with it 
 the Columbus day wage scale of 1898, 
 plus 20 per cent. I read the list as it 
 appears today. Mr. Mitchell said dis- 
 tinctly that the interstate contract car- 
 ried with it the inside day wage scale; 
 that there was not question about that. 
 Mr. Ryan and Mr. Russell both made 
 the same statement. Then Mr. Ryan 
 and Mr. Russell served notice that 
 where operators had voluntarily given 
 a premium, and were tired of it, inas- 
 much as they had given it voluntarily 
 they would have to get rid of it volun- 
 tarily; but the operators who had ad- 
 hered to the scale, and still adhered to 
 it, they would use the force of the or- 
 ganization 1 to carry out the agreement 
 with. In the scale committee the same 
 statement was made. , I believe it 
 came up in this discussion that in In 
 diana the year before — I believe it was 
 on the mine-run question — that at Co- 
 lumbus Mr. Bogle had some private 
 arrangement that if certain contentions 
 were dropped they would pay a prem- 
 ium in Indiana to the drivers for the 
 coming year, and they did so. Mr. 
 Bogle served notice on that convention 
 that any scale that was now in force 
 In any state ended on the first day of 
 April, except at the basing points; 
 and on the notice that Mr. Mitchell 
 had served that they had a right to 
 open up conditions and prices within 
 the state, except at the basing polits. 
 they would have a right to open up the 
 day wage scale. That was an Indiana 
 declaration; we had nothing to do with 
 it. The statement made by your 
 officials and the statement made by the 
 operators in re-aflfirming the interstate 
 agreement was that in re-afflrming the 
 interstate agreement the day wage 
 scale was reaffirmed, and it was settled 
 beyond argument, and it was not in 
 the power of the committee to change 
 it. We are bound by it firmly on both 
 sides, and we must abide by it. 
 
 MR PICTON:— If I can interpret the 
 resolution that Mr. Mooreshead read a 
 few moments ae^, it goes deeper even 
 than President Russell has stated. It 
 prevents boys from taking the place 
 
 of drivers at less wages; but it does 
 not apply to other classes of labor. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think it is 
 about time for this committee to get 
 back to the joint convention and report 
 their inability to agree. We have gone 
 over the entire scale and have 'not set- 
 tled a single point in controversy. We 
 have sent out committee after commit- 
 tee, and they have, in most cases, fail- 
 ed to agree. I think we should go 
 back to those who sent us here and see 
 if they will not give us some other in- 
 structions or send us home. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 committee now arise and report to the 
 .1oint convention tomorrow morning at 
 9:30. 
 
 MR. BENT:— There is a committee 
 that has not made a report. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I will withdraw my 
 motion for the present. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The committee on dirty 
 coal met this morning and had a very 
 harmonious session. It very quickly 
 developed that there was no dlfCerenee 
 of opinion on the merits of the ques- 
 tion itself, or the right of the operator 
 to have clean coal. We a|;reed that it 
 was equally to the interest of the min- 
 er and the operator that he should be 
 given clean coal. We also agreed that 
 ninety per cent of the miners endeavor 
 to load clean coal, and that this ninety 
 per cent of the miners are in favor of 
 the other ten per cent loading clean 
 coal. The only differences of opinion 
 arose over the question of how to ar- 
 range the section to cover it. The 
 difficulties are many. Two years ago 
 we tried to do it and failed. Last year 
 we tried again and were only partially 
 successful. The committee has not at- 
 tempted to solve the problem, and de- 
 sired to report back to this full com- 
 mittee the facts in the case, and to ask 
 for general discussion of the matter, 
 to help this or some other committee 
 to arrive at a proper plan to secure 
 clean coal. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to add a 
 word or two. As Mr. Bent has stated, 
 we agreed on everything but the plan. 
 The great trouble is to find a plan that 
 will be successful. We have this con- 
 dition confronting us; where they have 
 shaker screens there are possibly three 
 to five cars passing over the screen at 
 the same time, and when it reaches the 
 place where the dirt is picked out, and 
 the trimmer finds the dirty coal and 
 informs the weighman of It, it Is utter- 
 ly impossible to find out who loaded it. 
 This is one of the troubles we are up 
 against. Perhaps someone in the 
 committee can give suggestions that 
 will help us out. I wish you would all 
 put on your studying caps and try it. 
 W^e cannot see our way clear. We are 
 willing to adopt anything that is rea- 
 sonable and just that will insure your 
 coal being given you as clean as possi- 
 ble. We also agreed on the matter of 
 fines. Neither Mr. Bent or myself be- 
 
120 
 
 Morning Session, March 5. 
 
 lleved that a great, big fine is neces- 
 sary. We believe that if a man is In 
 the habit of loading dirty coal he Is 
 not fit to work in the mine. That is 
 my stand, and always has been. If 
 after repeated warnings a man persists 
 In loading dirty coal. He should be 
 discharged; he is a detriment to both 
 sides. The greatest difficulty is to 
 get something that can be applied. If 
 you can study out a plan we are will- 
 ing to take the matter up again, or 
 you can appoint another committee. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The committee feel 
 that a successful working plan is one 
 that will enlist the hearty sympathy 
 and support of the 90 per cent of the 
 miners we spoke of, some plan that 
 will make them joint partners with the 
 operators to secure the desired result; 
 and if in the general discussion the 
 key note can be touched, you will have 
 no trouble in getting a committee to 
 frame a clause. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — If you place too large 
 a fine upon the men the conservative 
 body of miners who try to give you 
 clean coal will think it is unjust, and 
 instead of enlisting their sympathy 
 with the effort of the operators to get 
 clean coal, they will sympathize with 
 the miners, and you will have more to 
 fight. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— The powder com- 
 mittee could not reach an agreement. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I now renew my 
 motion, that we arise and report to 
 the joint convention tomorrow at 9:30 
 a. m. (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 THE JOINT CONVENTION. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 5, 1902. 
 
 The Joint convention was called to 
 order at 9:30 a. m. by Chairman Ju 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Gentlemen of the con- 
 vention, Tvhen we adjourned last week 
 we adjourned subject to the call of the 
 joint scale committee. We are here 
 this morning in obedience to that call. 
 Before preceeding to the business of 
 the morning I shall take the liberty of 
 telling a story that appeared in a news- 
 paper a day or two ago "and which I 
 believe can be appropriately applied 
 on this occasion. 
 
 There was a preacher in a town, 
 which shall be nameless, who, on a 
 certain Sunday morning, did not feel 
 like preaching. He sent for the sex- 
 ton and told him that he was not well 
 enough to preach that morning, • and 
 asked him to post a notice on the 
 church door stating that there would 
 be no services that morning. The 
 sexton commenced to reason with the 
 parson, and said: "Parson, don't do 
 that. Go and hold services; I know 
 you will feel better after you have done 
 it." The preacher allowed himself to 
 be persuaded; went on and held the 
 usual services, and after his return 
 home the sexton said: "Parson, how 
 do you feel?" The preacher answer- 
 ed, "Sam, I never felt better in my 
 
 life." Sam said: "I knowed it, 
 Massa, I knowed you would feel better 
 after you got that sermon out of your ■ 
 system." It wouldn't surprise me to 
 learn that there is more than one hu- 
 man system here In which there lurks 
 a speech or two. If so an opportunity 
 will be given you to unburden your 
 system, after which I know you and 
 all of us will feel better. 
 
 The secretaries will now make their 
 reports. 
 
 MR. R FAN:— The committee has not 
 got a complete report to make; they 
 have a partial report. The judgment 
 of the joint scale committee was that 
 the proper thing to do was to report 
 back to this convention. In the report 
 that will be made will be Included the 
 matters on which we have agreed, as. 
 well as those on which we have dis- 
 agrreed. Mr. Scroggs and Mr. Morris 
 have prepared a report, and they will 
 submit it. 
 
 Mr. Scroggs then read fhe following: 
 To the Joint Convenltion. 
 
 March 4, 1902. 
 
 The joint scale committee' met Feb- 
 ruary 26. at 9:30 a. m. and organized 
 by selecting Mr. 'W. D. Ryan, chair- 
 man and Messrs. Scroggs and Morris 
 secretaries. 
 
 The committee proceeded to consid- 
 er the mining prices beginning where 
 the convention left off. The present 
 status of the mining prices, including 
 those agreed to in the convention prior 
 to the reference to the scale committee 
 is as follows: ^ 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 
 Present price agreed to except for 
 the following mines, which are still 
 unsettled. 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, 
 etc. 
 
 Wilmington and associated mines, 
 etc. 
 
 Seneca and Morris. 
 
 Clarke City lower seam. 
 
 For Marseilles a rate of $1.09 has been 
 adopted with the following provision: 
 
 (Rate at Marseilles to continue until 
 September 1, 1902, at which time the 
 conditions are to be investigated by 
 President Russell and Coirimissioner 
 Justi and if conditions are changed ^s 
 now contemplated an equitable adjust- 
 ment shall be made). 
 
 SECOND DISTRICT. 
 Present price agreed to. 
 
 THIRD DISTRICT. 
 Present price agreed to. 
 
 FOURTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Present prices agreed to (the provi- 
 sion for Assumption being changed to 
 read "present conditions'") except for 
 the following mines. 
 
 C. & A. south of Springfield, etc. 
 
 FIFTH DISTRICT. 
 Present price agreed lo. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 121 
 
 SIXTH DISTRICT. 
 
 th»''1l?"* prices agreed to, except that 
 the Kmrnundy long-wall is still open. 
 
 SEVENTH DISTRICT. 
 
 tv,»7„M"' -P'"'''^^, ^^""^^^ to- except for 
 ;^«, i °''''"^ ™'"e« ^hleh are still un- 
 settled: 
 
 All coal flye foot and unde», etc. in 
 Jackson county. 
 , I'Ower bench, Jackson county. 
 
 vViUiamson county. 
 
 Oallatin county. 
 
 EIGHTH DISTRICT. 
 
 .►v,^""^^?,"* P"<^ss agreed to, except for 
 the following mines which are still 
 unsettled: 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, thin or 
 lower vein, etc. 
 
 Pekin. 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties No. 6 
 vein. 
 Gilchrist and "Wanlock. 
 Kewanee and Etherly. 
 Pottstown No. 1 seam. 
 
 NINTH DISTRICT. 
 Present prices agreed to. 
 In considering the provisions of the 
 contract, other than the scale, the com- 
 mittee finally agreed to take the pres- 
 ent state contract as a basis for negot- 
 iations. 
 
 The several provisions of that con- 
 tract were taken up seriatim and each 
 was considered in connection with the 
 proposed scales submitted by the min- 
 ers and operators. As a result the fol- 
 lowing clauses of the present contract 
 were agreed to without change: ' 
 5th, 10th, 22nd, 23rd, and the 7th with 
 slight change. 
 
 The other clauses were voted upon 
 and lost or tabled or deferred, or were 
 referred to joint committees which had 
 either reported a disagreement or had 
 not reported at all when ^ the Joint 
 scale committee arose to report. 
 
 Upon motion the committee adjourn- 
 ed to report to the joint convention. 
 "W. D. RYAN,, 
 
 Chairman. 
 C. L. SCROGGS, 
 
 Secretary. 
 W. T. MORRIS, 
 
 Ass't Secretary. 
 MR. JUSTI:— What will you do with 
 the report? 
 
 MR. RTAN:-^I move that the report 
 of the committee be accepted and ac- 
 tion taken thereon. (Seconded and 
 <;arried). 
 
 MR. JtrSTI: — The report of the com- 
 mittee is before you for consideration. 
 MR. MONAGHAN:— I move that we 
 refer the whole matter back to the 
 joint scale committee, they to appoint 
 sub-committees, they to report back 
 to the joint scale committee, they to 
 report back to this convention. (Sec- 
 onded). 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— I offer 
 as an amendment that the different 
 
 scale districts select, their members of 
 the sub-scale committee. (Seconded). 
 MR. MITCHEDL,:-Does Delegate 
 Morris mean that they select them 
 from the scale committee, or from the 
 delegates from the different scale dis- 
 tricts? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I meant that the 
 delegates from the various scale dis- 
 tricts should get together and have 
 their choice out of their present com- 
 mitteemen to represent them on the 
 sub-scale committee. I think they 
 should have a right to say who their 
 representatives on that committee 
 shall be. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:- The sub-commit- 
 tee is always selected by the commit- 
 tee itself. The sub-committee is or- 
 dinarily selected by the delegates and 
 alternates from each scale district. 
 There are' four representatives from 
 each scale district. The custom in 
 the past has been for those four to get 
 together and select one of the four to 
 represent them on the sub-committee. , 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Morris the operators voted No, the 
 miners voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The president of 
 your state is without instructions, and 
 I would ask that you allow all the 
 miners to vote on this proposition, so ; 
 that the state president may know 
 how the majority of the convention 
 wishes him to vote. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— In compliance with the 
 request of your national president, Mr. 
 Mitchell, I will call for an Aye and 
 Nay vote of the miners' delegates. The 
 vote will now be on the motion of Mr. 
 Monaghan. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We would" like to vote 
 in harmony with the miners, and would 
 like to have them vote first. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 have this thing settled by the majority 
 vote of the miners. We. would like to 
 hold a short session before voting on 
 this matter. We would like to have 
 until eleven o'clock to hold a confer- 
 ence with our delegates. 
 
 (The operators retired from the hall, 
 and the miners' convention went Into 
 executive session. At the close of the 
 session they decided to go back to the 
 scale committee. For vote on the 
 pending motion see record of scale com- 
 mittee at succeeding session, which 
 was understood to be a part of the 
 record of the joint convention as well). 
 
 SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 5, 1902. 
 
 The scale committee was called to 
 order at 1:30 p. m. Mr. Tlyan In the 
 chair. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When we asked the 
 operators to withdraw frorn^ the con- 
 vention this morning a motion was un- 
 der discussion. That motion was that 
 we go back into the scale committee. 
 I believe the miners are now prepared 
 to vote on that motion. 
 
122\ 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 (The miners voted Yes, the operators 
 voted Yes, and it was declared carried). 
 
 (It was understood that the forego- 
 ing would show in the record as a part 
 of proceedings of the joint convention). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The question of malting 
 a scale is again in the hands of the 
 committee. What is your pleasure? 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I move that 
 it be referred to a sub-committee of 
 one miner and one operator from each 
 scale district. (Seconded and car- 
 ried). 
 
 The following committee was ap- 
 pointed: 
 
 For the miners: First district, H. C. 
 Perry; Second district, Fred Drews; 
 Third district, J. F. Morris; Fourth dis- 
 trict, P. F. Delehanty; Fifth district, 
 William Hefti; Sixth district, F. W. 
 Knowlman; Seventh district, David 
 Huggins; Eighth district, T. H. Pic- 
 ton; Ninth district, Henry Jackson. 
 
 For the operators: First "district, H. 
 N. Taylor; Second district, W. W. 
 Keefer; Third district, Edwards 
 Brown; Fourth district, F. W. Lukens; 
 Fifth district, A. J. Moorshead; Sixth 
 district, F. D. Secor; Seventh district, 
 W. S. Wilson, Eighth district, Richard 
 Newsam; Ninth district, George T. 
 Cutts. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The motion did not 
 provide for any alternates, but I think 
 jt will be taken for granted that if 
 any of the members of the committee 
 just named are obliged to withdraw 
 from the committee, they can appoint 
 alternates in their places. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— That is perfectly 
 satisfactory to us. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move you that 
 the joint scale committee adjourn to 
 meet at the call of the sub-scale com- 
 mittee. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 5, 1902. 
 
 The sub-scale committee was called 
 to order at 2 o'clock by W. R. Russell, 
 and organized by electing W. D. Ryan, 
 chairman, and Messrs. Scroggs and 
 Morris, secretaries. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move that 
 we now go into executive session, it 
 being understood that the officers of 
 both organizations, including the com- 
 missioner of the operators' associa- 
 tion, be included in the meeting. (Sec- 
 onded and carried). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is it the wish of the 
 sub-committee that a report ^e made 
 of its proceedings? 
 
 ' MR. TAYLOR:— I move that the 
 stenoigrapher be retained to take the 
 proceedings of the sub-scale commit- 
 tee. (Seconded and carr?ffi). 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move you that we 
 take up the present agreement, the 
 scale of wages and conditions. (Sec- 
 onded and carried). 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The first section as 
 to Streator, etc., has been adOipted. 
 
 The second section reads: "Third- 
 
 vein and associated mines, including 24 
 inches of brushing, 76 cents." 
 
 (It was moved and seconded that the 
 section be adopted). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't know whether 
 it is policy or not for this sub-commit- 
 tee to take up the most knotty prob- 
 lem that we have confronting us the 
 first thing. There are one or two 
 things that we have not agreed upon, 
 and upon which we widely differ. If 
 the committee thinks it policy to be- 
 gin with the hardest problem we have, 
 I am certainly ready to take up the 
 First district. I think, however, it 
 would be wiser for us to take up some 
 sections on which we are not so widely 
 apart. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The committee has al- 
 ready decided to do this, and your re- 
 marks are out of order. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — Then, Mr. Chairman, 
 I move you that the Wilmington field 
 and the third-vein field be considered 
 at the same time, and not separately. 
 I move that as a substitute. (Second- 
 ed). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If you make that re- 
 quest, I do not think it is necessary to 
 have a motion. Mr. Perry represents 
 both those districts on the committee. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I do not think it re- 
 qaires a motion. They can be taken up 
 together. We do not want to hold 
 this committee down to formal rulings. 
 
 As for the Wilmington field and the 
 third vein field, they are probably the 
 most competitive and the least compet- 
 itive of any fields in the state. If they 
 were all owned by one company they 
 would seek a common market. I don't 
 think a company owning every mine 
 in the district would seek to change 
 the mining price in those districts be- 
 tween their men. The prices having 
 been fixed by mutual consent, having 
 been fought over, arbitrated and re- 
 adjusted for over thirty years, while 
 many parts of the state have not been 
 organized for more than five years, we 
 feel that we have reached as near a 
 competitive condition in those fields as 
 can be reached. In Indianapolis two 
 propositions were made, one to renew 
 the interstate agreement of the year 
 previous, just as it stood. The miners 
 claimed an advance on the ground that 
 coal was bringing a higher price in the 
 competitive markets. The operators 
 made a proposition that if it was shown 
 that the average selling price for 1901 
 was higher than that for 1900 they 
 would pay a ten per cent advance to 
 the miners; and if, on the other hand, 
 it was shown that the average selling 
 price was lower the men would accept 
 a ten per cent reduction. That was re- 
 fused, and the first proposition, to re- 
 new the scale of the year previous, was 
 accepted. 
 
 There is no condition in the northern 
 field which warrants the payment of 
 an advance in the price of mining or 
 any change of conditions. There is 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 123 
 
 Zee^cnr^t".,*';^ '*?'^ *^^* l'^^ secured 
 n, v^t» .v*™"*^ °" '^"^^ small margins 
 
 Mr Perrv%r/t**i'™-,r"^'^- ^ ^^^^^ t°l^ 
 mr. jr-erry that I will some timp vwifv 
 
 TclT^oi^f 1 have- said on iZ n!^"^ 
 this i, nn" '^ "°'^' *•"* ^°™e -i^y ^hen 
 strfk^ n. i °7<.^' '^I'^ther it ends in a 
 strike or a settlement— and I excect to- 
 prove to him that the cShditions there 
 Wnrt w?;"^"r* ^°^ advance of any 
 of th« . ''^'J ^ ^^^^^"^ the ultimatum 
 ^i,J I operators the other day I in- 
 cluded the First district in that state- 
 ment and made it with the full au- 
 fl^rZ °* ^^^ operators. We believe 
 this is a competitive scale^. I know 
 that you know more about the earn- 
 ing power of the men than we do; but 
 I know also that we know 
 more about the competitive markets 
 than you do. We realize one thing! 
 that we are as nearly competitively 
 fair as we can get or hope to get; and 
 If we begin changing in one district it 
 will be like knocking down one brick 
 ma row they will all go down, one 
 after another. Then will begin the 
 turmoil and the chaos of the past. This 
 scaJe got its birth at the end' of a hard 
 strike; and after that was over it was 
 round that there wasn't much differ- 
 ence between what the miners were 
 asking and what the operators thought 
 was fair. We have rea-djusted the 
 scale five times; and while I do not be- 
 lieve that any scale will ever be per- 
 fectly fair, this is as falK. as we can 
 get It. If I felt there was justice_in 
 the claim of the miners, and I could 
 afford to do it and could keep our 
 mines going, I would not have taken, 
 the firm stand I have taken. If we 
 advance our mining price we will have 
 to go out of the contract business. I 
 don't want to have a strike, and I don't 
 want to have any trouWe" at home. 
 But if we have to change our price and 
 conditions and add to the cost of 
 the coal we will have to shut 
 down in the W^ilmington field. 
 We haven't a margin that will allow us 
 one cent of an advance; that is ab- 
 solutely the truth. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Taylor, and not 
 only Mr. Taylor, < but the ultimatum 
 that he laid down the other day eman- 
 ating from the association as a whole, 
 as I understand, makes me think it is 
 time we were beginning t" know where 
 we stand and what we intend to insist 
 on. In that ultimatum Mr. Taylor 
 says that no condition will be changed 
 that will add one cent to the cost of 
 the coal in any district in the state of 
 Illinois. I wish to state now that for 
 my part, if that is the ultimatum of 
 the operators, we might as well quit 
 right • here; we might as well under- 
 stand now where we are. I am not 
 speaking in regard to the Wilmington 
 field and its conditions so much as a 
 condition mentioned in the First dis- 
 trict, the cross roads in the third vein 
 field. Until that question is settled I 
 am an no position to take up and argue 
 
 the other case. Until we have definite- 
 ly settled the cross roads matter In the 
 third vein field I am not in a position 
 to take up the mining price. I might 
 just as well state here now that either 
 we have the same price f!Sr driving the 
 cross roads in the third vein field as 
 they have in the Wilmington field, or 
 I am satisfied there will be no settle- 
 ment in the First district. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I made myself 
 clear the other day in the Wilmington 
 field that we pay for these. cross roads, 
 and have always paid for them; and 
 although they_ are an expensive arti- 
 cle we are not fighting to take It away 
 from the miners, any more than we ex- 
 pect you to put onto us something that 
 will add to our expense. I believe in 
 absolute justice in these matters. We 
 could not consistently as& you to give 
 that up. I have made for our field the 
 broad statement that we are not ask- 
 ing you to give up anything, and we 
 do not expect to give anything more 
 than we are now giving. We expect 
 to pay you just what you are now 
 getting. I don't think there has ever 
 been a time when they have not paid 
 for the cross roads in the Wilmington 
 field, and that priffe has advanced and 
 decreased with the price of mining. 
 Our conditions are absolutely differ- 
 ent from the third vein field. They 
 are satisfactory to the operators, but 
 not to the miners. Two~ of us from 
 this side have to do the talking. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I request that the 
 scale price for mining in the First dis- 
 trict be deferred until the question re- 
 garding cross roads in the First dis- 
 trict is taken up and discussed. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We will give that much 
 latitude in the discussion. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I move that a com- 
 mittee of two be appointed to take up 
 the matter of cross roads in the First 
 district and bring in a report to this 
 committee. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. BENT:— I have no objection 
 whatever to the motion, but I wish to 
 speak to the subject in itself, inasmuch 
 as Mr. Perry has brought up the mat- 
 ter of cross roads in our district. Mr. 
 Taylor, in speaking for the First dis- 
 trict as a whole, and in the last part 
 of his remarks for the Wilmington 
 field, has voiced the position of the 
 third vein field precisely. If there are 
 any conditions in the state of Illinois 
 that have been worked out and fixed 
 they belong to the First district, one 
 of the earliest fields to operate coal 
 mines in the state, the first district to 
 deal with organized labor, and the first 
 to deal with organized labor in joint 
 conventions. For years and years be- 
 fore this movement spread to other 
 states or to other parts of this state we 
 held these joint meetings, and we hold 
 that the conditions of mining in that 
 field are as just as they can be made. 
 They are fixed, if anything in this 
 world can be fixed. That is our posi- 
 tion. I wSll object to the taking up of 
 
AFTERNOON OBSSION, iVlAKlZil O. 
 
 a ny Item in el'ther 'the Wilmlng'ton field 
 or the third vein field regarded by the 
 miners as especially favorable and 
 transfering it to the other district, or 
 anything of that kind. We hold that 
 the competitive conditions between the 
 third vein field and the Wilmington 
 field are as exact as they can be made. 
 Neither field discovers any advantage 
 or disadvantage in common markets. 
 For a great many years past the coals 
 have been sold in common territory, 
 on precisely the same freight rates. On 
 some roads the coal goes to the same 
 places for engine coal. The coal must 
 be the same, or the sale by both fields 
 to the same roads would not continue. 
 It is a matter of common knowledge 
 that contract coal is sold at an un- 
 satisfactory price, practically without 
 profit, oftentimes without any profit 
 whatever. It is a matter of common 
 knowledge that we sold our coal last 
 year at less than it was sold the year 
 before, and we got no relief from our 
 miners at all, and the conviction is 
 general that we cannot safely add a 
 farthing to the cost. 
 
 In 1897 the sentiment m the third 
 vein field, and the Wilmington field al- 
 so, was somewhat divided, and some 
 operators of our field worked through 
 a part of that strike, and certain ones 
 were avowedly on the side of the min- 
 ers, believing that the operators' posi- 
 tion was not entirely tenable. No such 
 difference of opinion exists today. The 
 people who differed most from the ma- 
 jority in 1897 are absolutely with us 
 today. There is not a company in 
 the third vein field that would think 
 for a moment of adding to the cost of 
 its coal. I share what Mr. Taylor has 
 said about the desire to make a peace- 
 ful settlement. But when it coiries to 
 the question of adding to the 'cost of 
 our coal, or failing of a settlement, we 
 regretfully say we will fail of a settle- 
 ment, because there are limits beyond 
 which we cannot go. 
 
 The conceding of fouf cents two 
 years ago was a great mistake. We 
 felt it could only be paid during such 
 time as favorable business conditions 
 existed. While the volume of busi- 
 ness has not decreased the margin of 
 profit on it is smaller. If it was to be 
 done over again neither Mr. Taylor nor 
 I would say what we did two years 
 ago. Instead of making our men con- 
 tented, as we sought to do. we have 
 only added fuel to the flame. W^ are 
 on a competitive basis with the rest 
 of the state, and we are out of line 
 with the east, on account of the machine 
 mine differential, and we have reach- 
 ed our limit. In 'the northern- Illinois 
 conference the other day the statement 
 was made by Mr. Mitchell that the en- 
 try price was lost by the miners at the 
 end of a struggle, when they had no 
 recourse but to come up to the ofllce 
 and accept individual contracts. He 
 said it was not a voluntarily contract, 
 and that they were entitled to have 
 
 that condition restored whenever they 
 could. I stated that the year the in- 
 dividual contracts were put into our 
 field it was on account of pending liti- 
 gation and not to affect the contracts 
 between ourselves and our men; and 
 that in that year the settlement was 
 made by the men in mass meeting, and 
 by committees with us. We signed 
 agreements with the committees, and 
 tSe individual contracts followed. I 
 did not dispute with confidence Mr. 
 Mitchell's statement thaJt the taking 
 off of the entry price occurred iu 
 1894. The next day I expressed the 
 opinion that it occurred in 1889. I have 
 now learned from the records of our 
 company that it was "abandoned in 
 1883, nineteen years ago. Approximate- 
 ly, one-half of the third vein" field nev- 
 er had an entry price. While the en- 
 try price was taken off at the end of 
 a strike, that condition has been rati- 
 fied eighteen times since. I presumtf 
 fifteen times it has been ratified" with- 
 out a strike or any friction, in the way 
 that we make our agreements today. 
 That condition is fixed. We went at 
 length into the merits of the question 
 the other day. We are prepared to 
 show that men in the entrttes are earn- 
 ing as much money, and more in some 
 cases, than the men in the rooms. We 
 are prepared to show that greater dif- 
 ferences exist between the rooms in 
 any mine than exist between the rooms 
 and entries as a whole. We can show 
 that the conditions in the entries are not 
 any hardship to the miners, because 
 while the men are entitled to take 
 the branch they do not take advantage 
 of it. Mr. Mitchell said that the fact 
 that the entries were kept brushed 
 higher might be the reason they stay- 
 ed there. That may be one reason, 
 and there may be several other good 
 reasons. The fact remains that men 
 do voluntarily work in the cross roads 
 in the third vein field. The company 
 has no trouble in getting men above the 
 average, good men and competent men, 
 to work in the cross roads, and as be- 
 tween man and man there Is no reason 
 for raising this question. If there is 
 some inequality there — which we deny 
 — it is not for the miners to take up 
 any detail in the contract of either the 
 Wilmington field or the third vein 
 field, and on the assumption that that 
 is not equitable, try to add to the cost 
 of the coal, while in the totality the 
 prices in 'the two fields are right. In 
 the last analysis it becomes a question 
 of the cost of our coal, and we cannot 
 add to the cost of our coal. When Mr. 
 Taylor made that statement the other 
 day for the association as a whole, he 
 made it for the third vein field as well- 
 as for the rest of the state. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I did not expect to 
 argue this case here be'fore the sub- 
 committe. I thought by having a 
 special committee appointed it would 
 cut out the argument before this com- 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 125 
 
 mittee. However, there are certain 
 statements that Mr. Bent has made 
 that I cannot let go unchallenged. He 
 stated that he was ready to show that 
 the men who work in the cross roads 
 make as good wages as the men in the 
 rooms. He hasn't told you where. He 
 hasn't told you why it Is he kept them 
 in the cross roads. He said they had 
 no trouble to get good men to drive 
 their cross roads. I dispute that, and 
 stand prepared to prove it. I stated 
 once before that I knew of a case I had 
 on hand myself in which there was a 
 strike in the mine because a man re- 
 fused to drive an entry. 'We had to 
 carry it to the sub-district, and, not 
 only there, but I had to go to Chicago 
 before I could get the operator to allow 
 the man to take the branch when he 
 got it tilrned. If they had no trouble 
 in keeping men in the enWies, why did 
 they take such a stand as that? They 
 did it for years. Up to three months 
 ago we had trouble in getting permis- 
 sion for the men to 'take thfe branches. 
 When a man has to either take the 
 cross roads or lay, at home idle, he will 
 usually take the cross road, and that 
 is one reason they have been able to 
 keep men in the entries. If you will 
 furnish men with branches, or if there 
 are branches for the men to take the 
 moment their own places are cut oft 
 they will never take the cross roads. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I deny it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I will prove it. I 
 will stake my life on it, and leave it to 
 a committee of investigation to be 
 appointed by this scale committee. Mr. 
 Mitchell knows I am right. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Are you speaking 
 of Spring Valley? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I am speaking of the 
 field. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I certainly am not an 
 authority on Spring Valley. But if this 
 scale is to be made on the conditions 
 in one town we ought to resolve our- 
 selves into a Spring Valley conimittee. 
 That is not true of the field as a whole. 
 The very instance he cites is an in- 
 stance of & company at LaSalle that 
 erred in not knowing that the Etgree- 
 ment nermiitted the man to takei the 
 branch. When the operator learned 
 what the agreement was they let him 
 take the branch. I say the men take 
 the branches in the third vein field at 
 will. That condition was given when 
 the entry price was taken off. I said 
 in a majority of instances the miners 
 stay in the cross roads. Some men 
 do prefer to take the branches and get 
 them. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I did not say the 
 companies did not give the men the 
 privilege of taking the branches; I 
 said the LaSalle company would not. 
 I say the reason you get your cross 
 roads driven without trouble by men Is 
 because when a man gets his place cut 
 off by a cross road he has got to step 
 Into that and drive it far enoueh to 
 
 turn another branch before there is 
 any place for him to take. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is a local rule in 
 Spring Valley. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It is not a local rule 
 anywhere; it is a condition of affairs. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But you do not have to 
 take that branch; it ts not a rule in our 
 mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It Is a forced condi- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is not a forced con- 
 dition in our mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — Anyone who knows 
 anything of long wall knows that when 
 a cross road cuts mir room off, and I 
 want to take a branch, who is going 
 to drive the cross road when I leave it 
 and take that branch which I put in? 
 Is not the man whose place is cut off 
 by that cross road obliged to take the 
 cross road or lay off? This is simply 
 a question of engineering; it is noth- 
 ing more or less; anyone who knows 
 anything about long wall mining knows 
 that. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is Mr. Perry speaking 
 of Spring Valley now? 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I am not speaking of 
 Spring Valley. I am not a Spring Val- 
 ley man now; I am from the First dis- 
 trict. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If you are speaking of 
 the field as a whole, I will say that is 
 not the system in vogue. That is not 
 the rule in the field I am familiar with. 
 What ordinarily happens is thait the 
 men stay in the entries from choice. 
 It is not the system in our part of the 
 field that whoever has had his room 
 cut off has to take the entry. He made 
 the statement the other day that at 
 Spring Valley there is nO' selection of 
 men in the cross roads. If that is true 
 of Spring Valley, it is true of that 
 place only. In such mines as I am 
 familiar with when men lose their 
 rooms the question is of getting a good 
 place. If men have been in hard places 
 our boss tries to put them in better 
 places. The question is not that they 
 are reluctant to go into cross roads, 
 but they wan't to go into better plac5.3. 
 In 1883 when the cross entry 
 price was discontinued, the prophesy 
 was made that we could not get the 
 skilled men we were compelled to have 
 in the cross roads. I will admit, on ac- 
 count of the sentiment that was creat- 
 ed, we had difficulty, but only for a 
 few months. After that we had no dif- 
 ficulty. I have not heard a peep of 
 this difficulty for years, except annual- 
 ly in the sub-district meetings, when 
 the request would come up again. I 
 will concede to Mr. Perry full knowl- 
 edge of the Spring Valley mines, but 
 he certainly does not know the condi- 
 tion of the mines in general, or he 
 would not make that statement. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— What mines are they 
 in which the conditions you speak of 
 are in vogue? 
 
 MR. BENT: — I am referring to the 
 eastern and southern part of the field. 
 
126 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 5. 
 
 so far as my knowledge extends, at 
 LaSalle, Peru, Oglesby, "Wenona and 
 Minonk. It is not true of any single 
 mine in that list: it never has come 
 out in any of the discussions in which 
 I have been a participant for twenty 
 years. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I made a state- 
 ment in the convention that the en- 
 try price was taken oft the miners ar- 
 bitrarily in 1894. I believed that to be 
 true. As a result of inquiry I now flnd 
 it was taken o« in 1893. I hold, how- 
 ever, that the length of time does not 
 detract from the Justice of the claim 
 that it should be restored. I think my 
 mistake is accounted for by the fact 
 that I worked in those mines, and 
 worked double shifting, and in that 
 time they paid ten cents extra for 
 double shifting. I worked in those 
 mines before I became a professional 
 coal miner, and I know that it was tha 
 general rule at Spring Valley— and I 
 was under the impression the same rule 
 prevailed in Marquette, Seatonville and 
 Ladd— that the person who drove the 
 cross entry had the choice of remaining 
 in it or taking the branch he turned. 
 When they cut ofE a room the men who 
 had been working in that room took 
 the cross entry, or if the man was 
 working in the cross entry he took the 
 branch. I claim that a man is doing 
 more work by remaining in a cross 
 entry than he would do if he took a 
 branch. A cross entry is driven 45 
 degrees on the face, which means that 
 one wall is leading the other one, some- 
 tinjes as much as six feet, and that 
 causes the breaks, particularly in the 
 third vein, before it is undercut. When 
 you come to brush the rock it means 
 that on the side that is leading it Is 
 very hard work to keep that side up. 
 The matter of brushing is much more 
 difficult than it is in a room, and 
 throwing the rock into the buildings 
 causes you to throw it twice as far as 
 you would in a room. Any practical 
 miner who has worked in that field will 
 say that the work in the cross entries 
 must be harder than In the rooms. The 
 only compensation is the higher roads. 
 The company brush their cross roads 
 and entries higher than the rooms. A 
 room is driven up and often not, brush- 
 ed by the company at all. In the en- 
 tries they have to maintain roads. 
 The only compensating feature I know 
 of in a cross entry is the fact that 
 the men get out larger cars, and as a 
 rule in the third vein there are not as 
 many cars given the men as they cjn 
 load. When I worked there the-lmly 
 reason we took cross entries was v.e- 
 cause we could load larger cars. NTot 
 enough cars were given in the rooms 
 to make as much money as we made 
 in the entries. I think it is more diffi- 
 cult to drive a cross entry in the third 
 vein than in the Wilmington field. , In 
 the Wilmington field they do stay in 
 the entry, because they only drive 60 
 feet before the company is obliged to 
 
 take care of the roadway. In the Wil- 
 mington field the coal breaks after you 
 undercut it while in the third vein it 
 more often breaks before undercutting 
 It. The fact that they mine their coal 
 and have It break as they want to in 
 the Wilmington field makes it possible 
 to swing the room clear around and 
 make a face running clear across the 
 road. There is more reason why they 
 should pay the entry price in the third 
 vein than, there is in the Wilmington 
 field. I am speaking now of the work 
 that is required in doing It. I do not 
 see why they can not pay it In the third 
 vein as well as in the Wilmington field, 
 even from a competitive point. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I have heard diametri- 
 cally the opposite statement made by a 
 miner. He claimed that it ought to be 
 paid in the third vein field, and said 
 that it was far more necessary than in 
 the Wilmington field. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — W^ho made that state- 
 ment? 
 
 MR. BENT: — It was made in a con- 
 versation, with me. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — We don't care to bring 
 it in. 
 
 MR. BENT: — It was made by some 
 one ardently defending getting the 
 cross roads in the third vein field. I 
 am the last one to claim the brushing 
 is not harder in the cross roads than 
 in other rooms of the mines. It is 
 not true that the only advantage a 
 man has in the cross roads is that the 
 roads are brushed higher. In the mines 
 where they are short of men and have ' 
 been continuously for a year or two, 
 and where .there has been a free turn, 
 the earning power of the men In the 
 cross roads on the whole has been 
 larger than in the rooms. I can not go 
 into these details as well as Mr. Perry, 
 but figures don't lie, and the proof of 
 the pudding is in the eating. There 
 must be other factors than the height 
 of the road, although if that is the 
 only factor, the fact that a man is 
 compensated at the end of the month 
 by the amount he receives, would indi- 
 cate that that wa.s an Important factor. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou know a man 
 working a cross entry has only half a 
 wall part of the time. 
 
 MR. BENT: — ^Wherever the company 
 has any regard for the Interests of its 
 men, and what Is fair between man and 
 man, that Is easily remedied by the 
 company not availing iitself of the right 
 to put men into the branch until there 
 is enough ground to preivent a hardship. 
 That relieves the man in the cross en- 
 try. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— In what way? By 
 stopping the next place to be cut off 
 and throwing this man out of employ- 
 ment in order to help the cross roads 
 man and give him the desired wall. 
 
 MR. BENT:— There is no system of 
 that kind in vogue. The companies in 
 the LaSalle group of mines reserve the 
 right absolutely to say who shall and 
 who shall not go into Its entries. It 
 
Afternoon Session, March ^. 
 
 127 
 
 does not claim the right to compel any 
 man to ^o in there, but it has claimed 
 that It is not right to malce any man 
 who is cut off go in there. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Tou leave the impres- 
 sion that if I am driving cross roads 
 and turn the branch, and take the 
 branch, you will drive the room. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The company simply 
 provides those men with proper places. 
 MR. PERRY:— That is not the agree- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I made that agreement 
 in 1883. I am not talking about Spring 
 Valley, but I do know. my own business. 
 If Mr. Mitchell's argument is good at 
 all it is good in regard to the relation 
 between the different rooms. There is 
 no question in the world but that a 
 miner in a deficient- place performs 
 more labor for the same wages than a 
 man in a good place, and there is quite 
 a disparity in ithe turn between a 
 man in a good place and a man in a 
 poor place. But there is no disparity of 
 that kind between the men in the rooms 
 and the men in the cross roads. Our 
 mining price has been re-adjusted more 
 than once by agreement with organized 
 labor since the time of the first agree- 
 ment predicated on the cross roads not 
 being paid for. Now to ifasten a charg? 
 for the cross roads upon us would be 
 throwing us out of line if we were right 
 before. It is not an inconsiderable 
 item. It is something we cannot bear. 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I don't see the 
 use of appointing a committee on this 
 question. If a committee is going to 
 be appointed it will have to be a com- 
 mittee familiar with this field. There 
 are only a few men hfere familiar with 
 the field. If they can not agree we 
 will have somebody to pass upon it, 
 and it is evident we can not agree. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Have I said anything 
 you have taken in a personal way at 
 all? 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No, sir. 
 MR. PERRY: — I asked for a commit- 
 tee because I knew it was a question 
 that would require some time to con- 
 sider. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:^ think the best 
 thing to do is to defer action for some 
 time. We must let somebody pass upon 
 the question, and it will have to be 
 those who will do it by separating 
 themselves from their particular sep- 
 arate Interests. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Bent stated that 
 he was referring to the LaSalle shaft, 
 Wenona, Mimonk, Oglesby and Peru. '± 
 don't like to get up and dispute any 
 man's word, but I know that has not 
 been the condition at the LaSalle 
 shaft. You know it has been the rule 
 there that the company should keep a 
 man in the entries if they desired him 
 to remain there. You know Mr. Wyatt 
 took that stand and held it until a 
 short time ago. , . „ji 
 
 MR BENT:— That is easily explained. 
 That' condition existed in the LaSalle 
 shaft and the No. 1 shaft at Oglesby 
 
 before Mr. Wyatt was ever interested 
 there. Mr. Wyatt was in error in 
 that. I qualified my statement and said 
 that I had attended every district meet- 
 ing for twenty years, but had never 
 heard of it. That question did oome up 
 in the LaSalle shaft. Mr. Wyatt came 
 to me to know if that was the arrange- 
 ment, and I said it had been ever since 
 the entry price was taken off, and Mr. 
 Wyatt corrected it. The agreement 
 when the cross road price was taken 
 off was absolutely that the miner had 
 the privilege of taking the room. That 
 has prevailed' in every mine in the dis- 
 trict following that. After mines were , 
 opened at Spring Valley and elsewhere 
 they were a law unto themselves for 
 years, especially at Spring Valley. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Why do you add Peru 
 to your list and say that this has been 
 a condition of affairs there? 
 
 MR. BENT:— In the LaSalle shaft at 
 a certain time the company was not 
 respecting the rule which has always 
 existed there. I don't know how it 
 came to be changed, and did not know 
 it had been changed until the matter 
 was brought to my attention by Mr. 
 Wyatt. I think it came about through 
 some arrangement or understanding 
 with the pit committee. It had slip- ' 
 ped in there in some way, but it was 
 not the arrangement in the rest of the 
 field. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- It did not slip in there 
 because it never was out of it. It has 
 been a rule there from €ime immemor- 
 ial. Mr. Wyatt told me that and he 
 was the general manager since the La 
 Salle shaft was dug. Since he has 
 been identified with that company he 
 ought to be acquainted with the con- 
 ditions there. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The mines Were open- 
 ed about twenty years before Mr. 
 Wyatt come there. I was acquainted 
 with the mines long before Mr. Wyatt 
 came there. Mr. Wyatt does not at- 
 tempt to argue these conditions, he 
 always asks what they are. He never 
 professes to know what the rules have 
 been there In the past. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— When the question 
 came up I had a meeting of the miners 
 of that company, and even went to the 
 different mines. I went to the La 
 Salle shaft. The question we had up 
 occurred at the Kilguben shaft at 
 Peru. The miners there — Mr. Cook and 
 other men who are here as delegates, 
 and people I believe who have known 
 LaSalle for years — were surprised to 
 think that I had gotten Mr. Wyatt to 
 agree to the present condition as it ex- 
 ists. They stated that it had always 
 been a rule that a man should remain 
 In the cross roads if the company de- 
 sired him to. 
 
 MR. BENT: — You don't question 
 that I am right as to what the arrange- 
 ment was? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't know what the 
 arrangement was. What the arrange- 
 
128 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 ment was and the actual condition are 
 two different things. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire to call your 
 attention to the fact that you are both 
 away off the question. You are dis- 
 cussing the right of the company to 
 put certain men in a cross road; and 
 the question is the payment of an ex- 
 tra tonnage price In the cross roads. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Bent has en- 
 deavored to show it is for a man's 
 benefit to get to drive a cross road 
 without extra compensation. He gave 
 as evidence the fact that the men al- 
 ways wished -> get in the cross roads, 
 and remained there of their own choice. 
 I have been endeavoring to show that 
 they do not remain there of their own 
 free will. In Roanoke the men today 
 receive from one to three and a half, 
 and as high as five dollars as a prem- 
 ium per day for driving cross roads. 
 All the added conditions were that 
 they took eight feet extra brushing, and 
 possibly took two yards in a pay. 
 We all know that eight feet of brush- 
 ing in two yards of an entry is 
 not worth three or four dollars. We 
 wish we could get that price. The rea- 
 son they paid that was because the 
 miners positively refused to drive their 
 cross roads at the tonnage price and 
 take 24 inches Of brushing. Then they 
 paid this premium 
 
 MR. BENT:— Perhaps I am as well 
 posted as most operators in the third 
 vein field as to the details of the min- 
 ing conditions, yet I am not a miner 
 and am unable to tell as to just why 
 some things exist. I am not able to 
 deliate with Mr. Perry or Mr. Mitchell 
 either and show conclusively why men 
 will stay in the cross roads under the 
 rules that exist. I can call attention 
 to certain things that enter into it, but 
 after all the convincing thing is that, 
 with entire liberty to leave them, — 
 which Mr. Perry admits is the condi- 
 tion today, simply saying that right 
 was denied for a time in certain mines 
 — the majority of men do from choice 
 stay in the cross roads. And the bet- 
 ter class of men, the men we prefer to 
 have in those cross roads, stay there. 
 The fact is they stay there voluntarily. 
 That and the fact that in a majority 
 of cases their wages are more than is 
 earned by the men in the rooms is con- 
 vincing to me that they suffer no hard- 
 ship. Mr.- Mitchell SDoke of sorne- 
 thing that my limited knowledge of 
 mining makes it hard for me to ans- 
 wer. He spoke of the way the breaks 
 occur. I can not explain the technical 
 questions involved, but I remember in 
 former years in our mine we used to 
 have many cross roads in that condi- 
 tion, with the breaks runnfng so nearly 
 with the roads it was hard to main- 
 tain them. I would not like to say 
 why it Is, but I do say that we have 
 modified the plan in our mines, so that 
 the breaks fall very nearly across the 
 entry now. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You drive your 
 cross entries 45 degrees on the face? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Not strictly. We are 
 not on the 90-degTee system. I know 
 we have overcome the old trouble we 
 used to have. It used to cause trou- 
 ble to the miner and to the company 
 to maintain the cross roads on account 
 of their caving so badly on account of 
 the breaks. I think It must be some 
 way in the control of the mine manager 
 the way the work is laid off. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I can understand 
 how you can get your breaks running 
 almost across your road, but you can 
 not get them to run straight across un- 
 less you mak" a loose end. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I do not claim they are 
 absolutely straight across, but the ex- 
 treme conditions you mention do not 
 come. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— A cross entry 
 travels more rapidly than a room or a 
 heading. The fact that it is working 
 on short wall causes it to travel faster, 
 and it makes additional work for the 
 men, because it makes so much brush- 
 ing. There is every disadvantage in 
 a cross entry, ordinarly, in the third 
 vein field. I have remained in a 
 cross entry when I oould have taken a 
 branch, but it was only because I was 
 working through some hard mining to 
 a point where the work was better, or 
 it was because I was getting larger 
 cars in the entries than I could get in 
 the rooms. I can not understand why 
 a miner will stay in a cross entry when 
 he can get a branch if he can set a 
 free turn. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We have had practic- 
 ally a free turn for two years. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Then I don't un- 
 derstand it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What do you mean by 
 a free turn? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I mean that we have 
 been so short of men since another in- 
 dustry came to the place that we have 
 never during the past year, except for 
 a few weeks, had enough men In there 
 but that the drivers come faster 
 through the mine than the miners can 
 load. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then why is it that 
 not long Ago I received a list of com- 
 plaints from Mr. Bent, handed to Mr. 
 Justl, and then to me, and among that 
 list was one complaint that the men 
 had served notice upon the company 
 that they should hire no more men for 
 that mine until the men who were in 
 there received the turn? This griev- 
 ance was brought to me, and the men 
 asked me whether the organization 
 would stand by them. You have had 
 no free turn, and have not had, to my 
 knowledge during the past year. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I stated that as a con- 
 dition in a mine where there is a free 
 turn. There was a few weeks when 
 the shaker screen was causing us 
 trouble. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- The facts In the case 
 are that if you will search the records 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 129 
 
 of the output of the mines, in the 
 
 northern fields that they only Jve 
 
 each man they have employed about 
 two tons a day. 
 
 MR MITCHELL:-Tou have more 
 men there than I think you ought to 
 
 «fJ®Vi, ^T surprised that the men 
 stay there at all. 
 
 MR. BENT:-I don't say it Is true 
 or an the mmes in the north, but it is 
 true in our place. 
 
 (On motion to appoint a special com- 
 mittee, the operators voted No the 
 miners voted No, and, it was declared 
 lost). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I wish to state once 
 more that I think we are wasting time 
 . ^^J,^^^ up anything else until this 
 is settled. Either the operators will 
 pant this one demand or the northern 
 held will have no agreement 
 *T,-'^?V BENT:— It is most regretfully 
 that I say the operators of th« third 
 vein field will not grant a request that 
 adds to the cost of their coal. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then I move you that 
 we so report to the joint scale commit- 
 tee. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is not nec- 
 essary. Everything must be reported 
 to the joint scale committee. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I understand it is the 
 intent of Mr. Perry's motion to report 
 now. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't see why we 
 should stay here and argue the rest 
 of the scale if we are not g-oinff to 
 agree. It is a waste of time to remain 
 here trying to get a settlement when 
 we have already found out that a set- 
 tlement Is not possible. I don't believe 
 in fooling with this any longer. I have- 
 stated before in the presence of Mr. 
 Taylor and Mr. Bent that, so far as 
 the rest of the questions pertaining to 
 the third vein district are concerned, 
 I am ready to reach some agreement 
 along equitable liines, but this demand 
 is a just and fair one and should be 
 ■granted. When the people in the Wil- 
 mington field can pay this and you get 
 up and refuse to do so, it is time for us 
 to cry halt. 
 
 MR. BENT:— For a, long term of 
 years our price; in the third vein field 
 has been fixed at five cents less than 
 the Wilmington field, our miners to do 
 24 inches of brushing, the miners in the 
 Wilmington field to do all the brush- 
 ing, the miners in the Wilmington field 
 to be paid extra in the cross roads, the 
 miners in the third vein field not to be 
 paid for the cross roads. That basis 
 is relatively fair and competitive. The 
 operators in neither field will permit 
 the picking out of one condition in the 
 third vein field which the minexs like, 
 and seeking to inaugurate it in the 
 Wilmington field, and then picking out 
 a condition in the Wilmington field 
 which they like and seeking to trans- 
 plant lit to the third vein field. Neither 
 field will permit tactics of that kind. 
 There is a limit , to that kind of work. 
 Northern Illinois is oractically as large 
 
 as the state of Indiana, and it goes to 
 the interstate convention and helps to 
 make the agreement, and comes into 
 the state convention and fights for its 
 life every time. Its conditions have 
 been hxed the longest of any conditions 
 m Illinois, but they are put in jeopardyi 
 every year. This agreement can not pre- 
 vail If there Is to be a threshing of old 
 straw every year. The conditions have 
 been fixed by mutual assent and if this 
 movement does not mean the) advance 
 ing of prices when conditions favor, 
 an^ reducing them when conditions 
 favor, all based on a competitive re- 
 lation between the fields, what does it 
 mean? What you can not get direct- 
 ly by an advance in the price, you at- 
 tempt to get indirectly by getting a lit- 
 tle here and a little there. This can 
 not be borne by the northern Illinois 
 operators; they can not stand it. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I believe this com- 
 mittee is now going to follow the lines 
 laid down by Mr. Taylor. I don't see 
 that we can gain anything by staying 
 here today and tomorrow. We can 
 only take the operators' ultimatum and 
 offer it to the convention. I seconded 
 the motion to refer it back to the com- 
 mittee, because I think it is killing 
 time to stay here. The operators have 
 given their ultimatum, let us turn It 
 over to the convention. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Before taking a 
 vote on this matter I would like to 
 have the miners' committee retire for 
 a short time. 
 
 (A short recess was taken for that 
 purpose after which the sub-committee 
 reconvened). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not think the 
 committee, or any one else believes that 
 I would take a stand that would put 
 a stumbling block in the way of an 
 agreement being made this year If 
 there was any possibility of reaching 
 such an agreement. I for my part do 
 not desire to see trouble. Possibly 
 some people may think differently of 
 me, but that is neither here nor there. 
 If it is possible to reach an agreement 
 I do not wish to be blamed for Its not 
 being reached. I will withdraw the 
 motion I made and in its place move 
 that we defer action upon the mining 
 prices for the First district until we 
 have gone through the present agree- 
 ment. (Seconded; carried.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is it the intention of 
 your motion to pass the S^rst district 
 entirely? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not think there 
 is any dispute except on the points we 
 have been talking about. If there are 
 no objections I would like to broaden 
 that motion, if it would be accepted, 
 and let it provide that "all disputed 
 points on which we can not agree in 
 the whole scale be deferred until the 
 whole scale has been gone over. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If it is agreeable to the 
 committee, that will be the under- 
 standing. 
 
130 
 
 APTKRNooN Session, March 5. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That will be 
 satisfactory to us. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The rate at Morris 
 and Seneca has not been fixed yet. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I move that the 
 price for the Clarke City lower seam, 
 brushing- in the coal remain 66 cents. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Do you allude now to 
 the seam that we had a controversy 
 over last year? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't know that 
 we have ever had any controversy over 
 this question. I understand the men 
 there are satisfied. The brushing there 
 is loaded out and paid for. There Is 
 no question about the Streator price or 
 any of the room and pillar prices. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What, vein is it? Is It 
 the Sreator vein? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't know really 
 what vein it is. That is the agreement 
 they have reached there, and I believe 
 the delegates thought it was fair. "We 
 passed it the other day because there 
 were other questions tacked onto it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We have fixed the price 
 at Clarke City at 56 cents. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't think it is 
 worth while for any of us to undertake 
 to slip a cog in this scale, for it is not 
 going to stand if we do. We have put 
 in demands here for 81 cents a ton, and 
 until that question is settled you cer- 
 tainly can not settle any other price or 
 settle for any one spot. Clarke City 
 is the lower vein, the No. 2. The price 
 of 76 cents a ton in the third vein long 
 wall, including 24 inches of brushing, 
 makes 66 cents a ton; excluding the 
 brushing in the Wilmington field at 81 
 cents a ton including the brushing, 
 means 66 cents a ton and no brushing-. 
 Therefore we can not settle Clarke City 
 any betiter than we can settle the Wil- 
 mington field. Whenever we settle 
 Wilmington field we settle Clarke City. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Clarke City is work- 
 ed room and pillar; it is not worked 
 long wall at all. The contention be- 
 tween long wall mines does not enter 
 into this question at all. We all agree 
 that the mining price is 66 cents. The 
 question is how much brushing should 
 be done? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The miners have asked 
 for five cents more a ton, practically 
 speaking, in both the Wilmington and 
 third vein fields. If that is granted it 
 will certainly carry with It five cents 
 on the Clarke City scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I supposed there 
 was no question about tBe room and 
 pillar mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — We have one in the 
 third vein field, and that is governed 
 by our price, 66 cents a ton. If we get. 
 five cents a ton advance it will mean 
 71 cents for that. 
 
 (The secretary read the following 
 section from tb° Fourth district scale: 
 "Mines on the C. & A. south of Spring- 
 field, to and including CarllnvlUe, in- 
 cluding Taylorville, Pana, Litchfield, 
 Hillsboro, Witt, (Paisley), Divernon 
 and Pawnee, 49 cents.") 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— I -wish to make 
 an alnendment by adding to that, 
 "coal 5 feet and under 54 cents.) (Sec- 
 onded). 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I would like to have 
 your reasons for that amendment, Mr. 
 Delehanty. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:- If the coal 
 there is five feet and under, 49 cents is 
 not an equitable price. It is not enough 
 for it, and we think 54 cents would be 
 a fair and just price for all coal five 
 feet and under. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— You think if the 
 coal is five feet and over 49 cents would 
 be right? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Certainly for 
 five feet and over. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It is a poor rule that 
 don't work both ways. If it is fair to 
 pay 49 cents for coal that is just over 
 five feet, and it is worth five cents 
 more for coal five feet and un- 
 der, it certainly is not worth 49 
 cents for six, seven, eight and nine feet 
 of coal. When that rate was fixed in 
 that district it was placed entirely up- 
 on the competitive conditions. Your 
 officials time after time have refused 
 to consider the earning power of a man 
 there; they would not allow that to 
 come into the discussion at all: They 
 said that that 49-cent rate was neces- 
 sary in order to equalize the competi- 
 tive conditions. If that is the case 
 I would like to ask how you can justify 
 a higher rate on the thin coal? You 
 can not do it; it is impossible; it is 
 evident right on the face of It that you 
 can not do it. If there are two mines 
 in that district, one having coal five 
 feet and under, and the other over five 
 feet, one paying a 49-cent mining rate, 
 and the other 54, how can the one hav- 
 ing the 54-cent rate compete with the 
 other mine, or with the balance of the 
 districts throughou t tf ie state? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— They are not 
 scaled right; that low coal should oome 
 up to 54 cents. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That Is no answer. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:- There have 
 been numerous complaints, from Litch- 
 field iti particular, that the ooal is un- 
 der five feet. It ig said that It some- 
 times goes under 4% feet at Litchfield 
 in some places. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I understand that 
 there is some low coal in places in 
 Litchfield. However, you have not 
 answered my question. How can one 
 mine having a 54-cent mining rate com- 
 pete with mines in the same district 
 ha-vlng a 49-cent mining rate? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Just as I tell 
 you. Their rate should be 54 cents. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— But how can they 
 sell their coal? 
 
 MR. DETLEHANTY:— It is for you 
 people to find that out. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Since we have been 
 in this joint movement we have figur- 
 ed out and solved a great many ques- 
 tions, but that would be beyond us. Mr. 
 Bent suggests we pay it when we get 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 131 
 
 that figured out. Our company last 
 year refused a contract for a thousand 
 tons of coal a day on a 2%-cent mar- 
 gin, but we could not take It, we had 
 to let It so. If that Is the condition, 
 how could a man at a five-cent differ- 
 ential in his mining rate exist in that 
 field? He could not exist. Tou would 
 tie him up so tight he could not turn 
 a wheel. Tou will have to give a better 
 reason than that, Mr. Delehanty, why 
 you should receive 54 cents on coal 
 five feet and under. If you have a 
 good reason for it we would like to 
 hear it, and will try to answer it. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Has the special com- 
 mittee appointed to take up the ques- 
 tion of low coal In the Fourth district, 
 tak^n any action? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— They have not. Mr. 
 Crabb had to go away Saturday, and 
 since his return there has been no op- 
 portunity for a meeting. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— If it would not 
 be out of order I would be heartily in 
 favor of a committee being appointed 
 to deal with this matter. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Crabb Is 
 here. Would the committee like to 
 hear from him on the subject of low 
 coal at Litchfield? 
 
 MR. CRABB:— Regarding the low 
 coal in the Fourth district, in Litch- 
 field especially, I will say it does not 
 make any difference upon which line 
 the scale of wages is based, either the 
 earning capacity of a man in that dis- 
 trict or competitive conditions. In eith- 
 er case they can certainly give no in- 
 telligent reason why the price of min- 
 ing should be^ advanced in the Fourth 
 district. The mines on the Wabash 
 north of Litchfield and at Taylorville 
 are near the local market and have an 
 advantage of ten or fifteen cents a ton 
 in the freight rate. The mines south- 
 east have the big vein at Sorento. 
 Southeast of us are the mines at Girard 
 and Vlrden. West of Litchfield you 
 strike Clyde and Gillespie and directly 
 east are the big mines at Paisley, not 
 only on the 49-cent rate, but machine 
 mines. It is not to be thought of that 
 the gentlemen operating those mines 
 will make sC price based on anytnmg 
 but their own conditions. They set 
 their prices. Now take the earning 
 capacity of the man. The vein var- 
 ies at Litchfield from four, to seven 
 f6et, but the bulletin will show that 
 month after month in what they call 
 low coal the men average as niuch as 
 the men in the high coal. A little 
 over a year ago Mr. CaBill was called 
 to Litchfield on the complaint of the 
 turn not being kept regularly. I was 
 laying out some entry work that Ma 
 been going on for some nw"**^- ,^?^® 
 miners demanded that I should put on 
 another turn. I demurred because it 
 would cost considerable and would be 
 only temporary work. They Insisted 
 it would be too long to_walt and said 
 that I should put the partings there. I 
 agreed and asked if that was all they 
 
 wanted. That was in the Sixth and 
 Fourth north. Then they said they 
 wanted another mule there. Mr. Cahill 
 said mules were only worffi $25 apiece. 
 I asked him If I went to this expense, 
 would that satisfy them. The men 
 unhesitatingly said if I would do this 
 they oould load as much coal there as 
 in any part of the mine. With one ex- 
 ception the largest wages In Litchfield 
 have been made in the low coal. The 
 delegate thalt went to IndianaiJolls had, 
 seven or eight months ago, had part 
 of his little finger taken off. When._he 
 came back, I told the mine boss to let 
 him have any room In the mine he 
 wanted. He picked out a room that was 
 barely four feet high.' He safd he could 
 load that in the dark because it was 
 all coal. The record will show that In 
 the low vein of coal they have earned 
 from 55 to 60 dollars in two weeks. Un- 
 fortunately there Is a class of men 
 there that are poor miners. Your or- 
 ganization knows this from the amount 
 of money it has had to contribute there 
 In the past. ■ They have drifted in 
 there from all places, and some of them 
 could not earn a living If the price was 
 75 cents. Since we have opened the 
 mines every man in that place has had 
 work. The men have not been idle 
 but one day since the first of December 
 except the days they laid off voluntarily 
 to go to funerals. I take both the 
 earning capacity of the men and the 
 competitive conditions and say that^ 
 there should not be a single cent add- 
 ed to that coal. The mine was in the 
 hands of a receiver and every man 
 there knows it has been one of the 
 hardest things in the world to pull that 
 out. If conditions are changed, I will 
 not put in any more money or time try- 
 ing to bring it out. I can not put a 
 ton of coal on the Big Four there. Coal 
 from the outside is shipped in there 
 and sold in competition. We have 
 four coals coming in there that com- 
 pete. Take the matter of living In 
 Litchfield. I don't suppose there is a 
 mining town in the state where men 
 can live and do live as cheaply as they 
 do there. When the big car works 
 closed up it left a large number of 
 small houses vacant. A miner can 
 rent a four-room house for from 
 three to four dollars a month, 
 a six-room house for five and 
 six dollars a month, and larger houses 
 for eight to ten dollars a month. My 
 men get dissatisfied as men do in other 
 places, and go away to other mines, 
 but they always come back. I QO^t 
 think there are but two men out of the 
 original number that were there that 
 have not come back. The price along 
 the line of the road in the competitive 
 markets with mines of big tonnage is 
 based upon low prices per ton. I don t 
 attempt to run a big tonnage. I have 
 only attempted to give the men there 
 work. I don't try to run beyond a cer- 
 tain capacity. If the men owned the- 
 
132 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 property they could not get a cent more 
 out of it than they are getting. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I think the 
 conditions Mr. Crabh speaks of in re- 
 gard to cheap living in Litchfield has 
 nothing to do with the low coal. I 
 will admit that any time a miner will 
 go to live at Litchfield, it Is such a 
 despicable place, he can get a house 
 for nothing. There are any amount of 
 houses there that the owners will give 
 to anyone who will live in them. I 
 know men from "Virden who went over 
 there and got houses for nothing. The 
 houses have been vacated since the car 
 works were taken away. You yourself 
 admit that there is coal there four feet 
 and under. "Whether that coal is 
 there in Litchfield or in Peoria county 
 it is low coal, and when you say you 
 have men who will' pick out these low 
 places and take them for places to 
 make big wages in, I must say I can- 
 not believe that. When I go into the 
 mine I look for the highest place I can 
 get. The idea of a man coming into 
 a mine where they pay 49 cents a ton 
 and looking for a place that is only 
 four feet — why if you would give a man 
 a four-foot place and give him a free 
 clock, as they call it in Virden, he 
 would not take it. That is a very poor 
 argument, I think. He says they 
 make as much in Litchfield as any- 
 where else, and they have plenty of 
 men and can get plenty of men. I think 
 the men have to stay there because 
 they cannot get out of Litchfield. 
 
 MR. CRABB:— I would like to know 
 what your idea is of what this scale 
 of wages is based on. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I am alluding 
 to the low coal. The high coal is all 
 right; but the low coal is not right at 
 49 cents. 
 
 MR. CRABB: — Forty-nine cents is 
 the bare mining price. I do all the 
 bottom taking up in addition, and that 
 adds considerable to the cost. I know 
 there is not a mine, including Chatham 
 that is not entitled to a less rate than 
 49 cents. I would like to know on 
 what your opinion of the scale of wages 
 is based on. on what conditions 49 
 cents was applied to that district. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— On five feet of 
 coal and over, up as hign as you can 
 get it. 
 
 MR. CRABB:— Mr. Reynolds said 
 yesterday that the scale was based on 
 six feet of coal. If you are basing 
 this district on six feet of coal you are 
 doing the district an Injustice. If you 
 applied that basis you would not get 
 anything like 49 cents. The miners 
 at Litchfield have worke9 for three 
 years under this scale. They have 
 had bett,er work than ever before. Be- 
 fore the union was formed they were 
 working in there at 30 cents a box, the 
 boxes averaging about 3,500, making a 
 rate of about 25 cents a ton for mining. 
 They have full work now, they had half 
 work then. Taking it either on the 
 earning capacity of a man or on com- 
 
 petitive conditions — and I understand 
 from the officers of the organization 
 that this scale of wages has been bas- 
 ed largely on competitive conditions 
 instead of the earning power of a man 
 — and the miners there are getting good 
 wages. If ii was based solely on the 
 earning power of a man many of these 
 districts would have to be reduced. If 
 the men outside of Litchfield would at- 
 tend to their own business as much as 
 they try to attend to the business there 
 there would be no questions of this 
 kind brought up here. The men have 
 told me they did not expect to get any 
 advance over last year's prices. If they 
 got last year's prices and as much 
 work as they got last year they would 
 be satisfied. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Crabb said I 
 made the statement yesterday the 
 scale was based on a six-foot vein of 
 coal for the 49 cents. I was speaking 
 of the Belleville district. I was asked 
 which of the two veins I was basing 
 the 49-cent rate on, the flve-foot vein 
 or the six-foot vein, and I said the six- 
 foot vein. Sometimes It rans below 
 and sometimes above six feet. Where 
 it is five feet and under we get 54 
 cents for it. The vein is not exactly 
 six feet, although It is called a six- 
 foot vein, it runs all the way from 534 
 feet to S feet. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I am still anxious to 
 have the miners advance some good 
 reason why this rate of 54 cents should 
 apply on what they call the low coal. 
 It seems to me a demand of that kind 
 is not justified unless they can pro- 
 duce some good reason for it. If they 
 advance any good reasons we will try 
 to answer them. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— We consider 
 that when the coal from natural condi- 
 tions runs below 5 feet and down to 4 
 feet, 49 cents is not enough for it, for 
 the men are not able to get out the 
 coal they would in a higher vein. That 
 is a good reason why we want more 
 for low coal. I learn from miners that 
 work there that from natural causes 
 the coal has run down where rooms 
 start to break ofC from the entry to 
 where the rooms finish up to four and 
 four and a half feet. That coal is 
 too low for 49 cents, and they claim 
 they cannot >make a living In it, so 
 they ask that they be paid 54 cents for 
 it. If they are made equal with other 
 people in the district they will get 54 
 for that low coal. 
 
 MR. CRABB:— There is not an oper- 
 ator along the line of that road but 
 knows the competitive conditions at 
 Litchfield, and where they have had to 
 market their coal. We have paid the 
 union scale and hired the union men to 
 do that work, and have had the eight- 
 hour day. W^e have offered the men 
 when they have been working in " 
 room to take up the bottom and paid 
 him the scale rate of wages if he did 
 it. They prefer to have the company 
 
Afternoon Session, March 5. 
 
 133 
 
 . '*■ Z^^ *^ ^s'lts Is a misleading 
 price. The miner does not have to 
 take down his top or bottom as they 
 do in other places. The mine cannot 
 De run and the men cannot earn their 
 wages if the coal, is not sold, and ie 
 conditions are put on there that will 
 prevent them from competing with 
 other coal they cannot do any business 
 at all. The only wonder Is the amount 
 of coal has been sold from there, and 
 that we have been able to give the 
 miners the work we have given them. 
 I don't intend to try to run that mine 
 and run it at a loss. Five cents ad- 
 ditional put on there would render the 
 property a loss. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 low coal in that district be referred to 
 a committee consisting of Mr. Harlan, 
 Mr. Cahill and Mr. Crabb. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Why noi let it go to 
 the committee that was appointed to 
 consider the question of low coal? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am satisfied to 
 leave it in their hands. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— May I answer 
 Mr. Lukens' question? He wanted to 
 know why they asked five cents ad- 
 ditional. If they pay forty-nine cents 
 for coal that has a stratum of six feet 
 and over, then whenever it would fall 
 below five feet it should be classed as 
 deficient work. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That does not an- 
 swer my question at all. That is a 
 good deal like Delehanty. Simply be- 
 cause they want it and ask for it Is no 
 reason why they should get it. They 
 have not shown any reason that would 
 justify them in asking for it. They say 
 that in the Fifth and Ninth districts 
 they pay five cents extra for coal five 
 feet and under. That is in another 
 vein, and is on a high grade of coal. 
 There is something there that allows 
 them to stand it; it is sold at a higher 
 price than the other coal. If it was on 
 the same vein of coal they could not 
 stand it, it would drive them out of 
 the market. "We contend that the min- 
 ers are not entitled to any additional 
 price for low coal in our district un- 
 less the coal should go down so low a 
 man could not make any wages at it. 
 In that event the matter might be a 
 sub.1ect for discussion. In this case 
 there Is no such claim that can be suc- 
 cessfully put forth. Mr. Crabb has 
 told you what the wages are in 
 that mine. No one will claim, 
 that those wages are not up to the 
 standard. Tou are not ju.stified in 
 making this contention at all until the 
 coal gets down so low that a man can- 
 not make regular wages at it. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I am not speak- 
 ing only of that mine, but of any mine. 
 In my district when the coal gets less 
 than five feet it becomes deficient work. 
 MR. CRABB:— In what they call the 
 "low coal" in the last two or three 
 months we have had a good many of 
 the drivers off. Tou can go all over 
 the north side of the mine and you can- 
 
 not get a miner to come out and drive 
 by the day. He will tell you he will 
 not drive for $2.25 when he can make 
 three dollars in the mine, and you can- 
 not get him to do it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that this 
 matter be referred to the committee 
 that was appointed a few days ago to 
 consider the matter of low coal. (Sec- 
 onded and carried). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That committee con- 
 sists of Mr. Lukens, Mr. Crabb, Mr. 
 Harlan and Mr. Hillier. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:—! move you that 
 the Williamson county rate be fixed at 
 forty-two cents. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I made a few re- 
 marks the other, day in reference to 
 Williamson county. I will now add a, 
 few more. Since making the state- 
 ment to you about the part that oil is 
 playing in our market, and the part it 
 is going to play for the future, I have 
 a message from the Southern Pacific 
 railroad, a road that Williamson coun- 
 ty furnished a large amount of coal to 
 last year, in which the president of that 
 road says that he Is substituting oil 
 for coal on all of his locomotives for 
 coal, and that he will not want any 
 coal this year. That cuts off a market 
 for quite a lot of our coal. I have 
 learned also that there are some reduc- 
 tions in the mining rate in Arkansas 
 that will interfere with a little tradS 
 we had down there. It is not large, 
 but it all helps. Before the scale com- 
 mittee I made a statement that the 
 counties on each side of Williamson 
 county that were paying forty-five 
 cents — Saline and Jackson — had run 
 more days than Williamson county 
 during the past year. That being so, 
 I do not think the rate in Williamson 
 county has hurt the counties that are 
 paying 45 cents. The statement was 
 made that we loaded cars belonging 
 to some of our friends in the adjoin- 
 ing counties. I think I showed that 
 that was only a matter of a few cars 
 that went to the river and not to the 
 markets that the other people had been 
 shipping to. Today Williamson <;ounty 
 is over-run with miners seeking work. 
 I am told that is not true in other 
 counties in the state. If I am correct- 
 ly informed, why is it that the men 
 are seeking work there for 42 cents? 
 They are satisfied that they can make 
 good wages there or they would not go 
 there and apply for work. I think 
 that is a most excellent reason -why 
 our rate should remain at 42 cents. We 
 have already shown that the other op- 
 erators are not complaining of the 42- 
 cent rate. Operators have stated on 
 the floor of this committee that we 
 were not interfering with_their trade 
 in any way; therefore no good reason 
 can be advanced from that direction 
 on the part of the miners why our rate 
 should be raised. We have kept go- 
 ing pretty regularly in that county, 
 and have worked largely on railroad 
 
134 
 
 Aftbrnoon Sbssion, March 5. 
 
 business on a very close margin. If 
 there was any way in which we oould 
 see our way clear to paying- you a 
 higher rate we would do it;_but I can- 
 not see that we can change the con- 
 clusion I stated last week. Rather 
 than run and keep even — I will put it 
 in that way, some of them have stat- 
 ed they lost money, I have not— we 
 will close our mines. We don't want 
 to do that. I have worked hard to 
 keep the men employed, and I want to 
 continue it; but the rate we are paying 
 is all we can afford to pay, and if you 
 increase it we will have to close the 
 mines. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I don't feel like 
 making an extended talk on this ques- 
 tion. Quite a number of the men on 
 this committee from both sides were 
 on the scale committee two years ago, 
 and I then put up the very best arrgu- 
 ment possible from our point of view 
 on this question. We failed to agree 
 at that time. The operators did the 
 same from their point of view, and 
 they have done the same at this con- 
 vention. I arose the other day and 
 asked them to produce such arguments 
 as they had. My mind is fully made 
 up on that question, and I think it 
 would be wasting time on my part to 
 try to produce any argument or argu- 
 ments that I have produced here before 
 -^or, in fact, any arguments. I think 
 it would be taking up the valuable 
 time of this committee. I know the 
 position the miners have taken. 1 
 know also the position the operators 
 have taken, and I think any further 
 argument would be useless. We are 
 now ready to vote. 
 
 (On the motion to make the rate in 
 Williamson county 42 cents the operat- 
 ors voted Yes, the miners voted No, 
 and it was lost). 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— We all know there 
 are two sides to every queslon. Possi- 
 bly the operators think their conten- 
 tion ip right; I believe the miners ot 
 Williamson county think their conten- 
 tion Is right. We have thus far failed 
 to agree. I think the miners of Will- 
 iamson- county want to do the right 
 thing; I believe also the operators of 
 the same county want t-o do the same 
 thing. If that is so I think that by 
 leaving it to a fair and impartial board 
 of arbitration we will be doing the 
 best thing we can under the circum- 
 stances. Therefore 1 move you that 
 this be left to the state board of ar- 
 bitration to settle. (Seconded by W. 
 T. Morris). 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— This matter has 
 been arbitrated once. If we were to 
 arbitrate it again we would be going 
 over about the same ground. We 
 claim when it was settled by the state 
 board of arbitration the rate was es- 
 tablished legally and It should stand, 
 and that all advances should be on 
 that rate. We cannot consent to an- 
 other arbitration. This Is the time 
 of year we have all to go out and look 
 
 for business, and we all know how 
 much time it takes to arbitrate a mat- 
 ter. If we had not had this arbitrated 
 once we would be inclined to look more 
 favorably on Mr. Huggins' proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is the fact that the 
 matter would be delayed your only rea- 
 son for objecting to the arbitration? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— That Is one ser- 
 ious objection. Why go over the 
 ground again? A decision was reached 
 when it was arbitrated before, a rate 
 was fixed, and we have used that rate 
 as a basis. 
 
 MR. DONOVAN:— Is not the best 
 board of arbitration in the world a 
 board of miners and operators Inter- 
 ested in the business? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:—! thiiilR the min- 
 ers and operators know more about the 
 business than any board of arbitration, 
 and the miners and operators Save 
 passed upon this three or four times. 
 That is the position we took last year, 
 and I don't feel disposed fo change It. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I believe the 
 question that was arbitrated down 
 there was whether or not W^llllamson 
 county should pay a rate of 30 cents 
 or a rate of 36 cents. The earning 
 power of the men and competltl-ve con- 
 ditions were not taken Into considera- 
 tion by thajt board of arbitration 
 We tried to get the Jackson and 
 Perry county operators to go 
 before that board. Mr. Bent, 
 Mr. Moorshead and other operators 
 contended in 1899 that __ Williamson 
 county was not on a fair rate at that 
 time, and that 36 cents was a fair rate. 
 Mr. Peabody himself said at a meet- 
 ing we held in Carbondale, when we 
 agitated the question down there, that 
 when we brought the other mines up 
 he would pay the price. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I don't think that this 
 committee should comriiit Iself to the 
 idea of political arbitration. If you 
 are going to commit yourselves to polit- 
 ical arbitration in this intance, the 
 chances are that in your joint conven- 
 tions in the future, whenever you strike 
 a knotty point, someone will suggest 
 that It be referred to a board of ar- 
 bitration. The question of a board of 
 referees within our own organization 
 came up In the Interstate meetings, and 
 it was considered by both operators 
 and miners, and some operators and 
 pome miners considered it dangerous 
 and voted it down. It seems to me we 
 ought not to waste any time at all on 
 that proposition. I know perfectly 
 well what the sentiment of the major- 
 ity of the representatives and officials 
 on thi.s subject is. I believe they have 
 time and again committed themselves 
 to the idea that so long as we have 
 this movement the need for political 
 boards of arbitr.ation does not exist. 
 The moment we go outside of our joint 
 movement in order to settle questions 
 of that sort, that moment this move- 
 ment is doomed. 
 
AlTERNOON SBSSION, MARCH 5. 
 
 135 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Whenever we 
 agreed jointly on the price in Saline 
 county some of ,the operators at that 
 meeting, along with Brother Mitchell, 
 asked if they objected to that rate 
 would we submit it to that board. I 
 said we would. The operators of Saline 
 county were not present. I went down 
 there with Mr. Mitchell's consent and 
 took this question up. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— The question of sub- 
 mitting Saline county to the arbitra- 
 tion of political boards did not come 
 before this convention. 
 ■ MR. JEREMIAH:— The question came 
 before the convention at Springfield, 
 because the operators came and asked 
 Mr. Mitchell if they would put a pro- 
 test In there agiainst the rate in Saline 
 county would I be willins to submit 
 the case to a board of arbitration, and 
 I promised I would. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— That was settled on 
 the outside, and so far as the conven- 
 tion was concerned they knew noth- 
 ing about it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou will no doubt 
 recall the fact that the rate for Saline 
 county was fixed without Saline coun- 
 ty being represented by an operator. 
 Mr. Garrison voted, qualifying his vote 
 by saying that if it developed after- 
 wards that it was not in accordance 
 with the wishes of the Saline county 
 operators he wanted some steps taken 
 to arbitrate that. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I think it was Mr. 
 Peabody' that did that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— The proposition 
 was not to submit to a political board 
 of arbitration, it was to submit it to 
 arbitration. Mr. Justi has said he 
 knows the sentiment of the officials of 
 our organization on the question of 
 political arbitration. Trade unionists 
 are not in favor of political arbitration. 
 Our experience with political boards of 
 arbitration has not Inspired' any par- 
 ticular confidence in them. We have 
 not believed that they have exercised 
 their best judgment, but have often 
 been influenced on account of their en- 
 vironments. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— The representatives 
 on the operators' side put particular 
 stress upon the political board of arbi- 
 tration, and yet they use as a point In 
 their favor that the boara Of arbitra- 
 tion set the rate for Williamson coun- 
 ty, and that they have since taken that 
 as a base for settling the rate for that 
 county. If a political board of arbi- 
 tration is not fair now It was not fair 
 
 then. ^ XI. 4. 
 
 MR JUSTI:— The operators at that 
 time thought the decision of the board 
 of arbitration was unfair. There was 
 a matter of six cents in question, and 
 the board of arbitration split It In half. 
 This question was settled outside of 
 the association. 
 
 MR BENT:— The operators claim 
 that this question has already been 
 passed upon by the most expert board 
 of arbitration you can possibly ob- 
 
 tain. I am not referring at all to the 
 state board of arbitration. In the 
 Chicago convention In 1898, and just 
 following that, it was stated by Mr. 
 Ryan and Mr. Hunter both — ^if my 
 memory does not fall me — that the op- 
 erators were the best able to frame a 
 competitive scale because they felt the 
 competition most keenly_when anything 
 was wrong, and iJossessed full informa- 
 tion about the markets. It was furth- 
 er said that operators' committee of 
 twenty-one had formulated a scale 
 base for Illinois which was ntore 
 competitive and on the whole 
 more satisfactory to the miners 
 than the one they had framed them- 
 selves at Springfield. We say when 
 the question is one of an advance In 
 wages, or concerning hours of labor or 
 conditions that shall prevail in the 
 mines, either for the state or for some 
 particular district, the most compet- 
 ent board of arbitration you can get is 
 a joint board of operators and miners. 
 When it comes to a question of the 
 competitive conditions solely, the most 
 competent board of arbitration you can 
 get is not a board of operators and min- 
 ers or a state board, but a board of 
 competing operators. This question 
 has been adjudicated for years by such 
 a board as this. While the min- 
 ers have discussed the propriety of 
 that scale in joint committee, they have 
 never come to us and said that the 
 miners there could not make a fair 
 day's wage. They have come to us on 
 the question of competitive conditions, 
 alleging that other fields could not 
 compete with them, while the operat- 
 ors from the other districts, who are 
 the best judges of that matter, have 
 endorsed the present scale in William- 
 son county. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Did *-ou not con- 
 tend in 1898 that they were the operat- 
 ors' competitors? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Most assuredly; there 
 are several fields that are our compet- 
 itors. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— And that they 
 ought to pay the 36-cent rate? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I never claimed under 
 the conditions existing then that they 
 ought to pay the 36-cent rate. I do 
 contend that tilings that appear in the 
 record there in the early part of 1899, 
 as said by various operators and by 
 Williamson county operators, have 
 never been said in any convention 
 since. No string has ever been tied 
 to anything the Williamson county op- 
 eraJtors said in 1900 and 1901. A pecul- 
 iar condition of affairs existed down 
 there, and we were in an early stage 
 of this movement. I for one, and the 
 district I represent, have endorsed the 
 scale that has prevailed in^WilUamson 
 county since that time, and have en- 
 dorsed it without any qualifications 
 whatever. If Williamson county, or 
 any other county, makes an attack 
 upon some other district of this state 
 
136 
 
 Aftbrnoon Sbssion, March 5. 
 
 so as to jeopardize its tonng^e, the op- 
 erators will have the matter up in a 
 hurry, and in the next state convention 
 that is held your side will hear about 
 it. There Is no claim made that condi- 
 tions are not competitive, and every 
 district Is loyally with Williamson 
 county on this rate of 42 cents. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Have they changed" 
 their minds since last year? 
 
 MR. BENT:— No. sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— They contended last 
 yeaj; that that price was ^ot right. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is it in the record? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— By request it was 
 stricken out of the record. 
 
 MR. BENT:— My memory falls me 
 abou,t this. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— "While it Is not in the 
 offlcial record we can And it In the pro- 
 ceedings of the committee meeting. 
 Mr. Davenport, for one, objected to 
 the rate, and his objection is in the 
 record. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I have last year's offlc- 
 ial record. For the purpose of show- 
 ing what Mr. Ryan said a year ago in 
 regard to going before the state board 
 of arbitration with Saline county I will 
 read from the record: 
 
 "MR. RYAN:— The operators might 
 as well understand our position now 
 on the question as later. "We are not 
 going to change the price in Saline 
 county under any circumstances. The 
 rate that is now being paid was fixed 
 by the state board of arbitration, and 
 this committee will not vote to change 
 it. It is apparent that there was no 
 evidence submitted to that board by 
 the operators that would induce them 
 to lower that rate, and if they did not 
 furnish the proper evidence we are 
 not going to." 
 
 Mr Reynolds said, in regard to some- 
 thing that was said by Mr. Davenport; 
 
 "I don't believe there is an operator 
 in the state of Illinois who has a right 
 to ask another question about this 
 case. "When the "Williamson county 
 case was up there wa? not" an operator 
 who got up and complained of the 
 competition from "Williamson county, 
 and I don't think they have a risht 
 to do it now, and I don't think we 
 ought to waste another minute on this 
 question." 
 
 You will find those statements on 
 page 180 of last year's offlcial record of 
 the proceedings of the committee. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— There has been 
 enough said about this'from time to. 
 time to fill a large volume. In the 
 years 1898-9 they held practically the 
 same position that we did. During 
 the years since that period, while thev 
 say the rate that was given by the 
 board of arbitration is the rate they 
 should be based on, conditions have 
 changed the're. At. .the time the ques- 
 tion was arbitrated they ffid not have 
 the outlet to the southern markets 
 that they now ehjoy. If they had en- 
 joyed the same privileges then that 
 they do I believe the rate would have 
 
 been fixed at 36 cents Instead of 33 
 cents. They acknowledge this in the 
 districts outside of "Williamson county 
 by presenting to the miners from year 
 to year propositions that will lessen 
 the cost of producing their coal. __If 
 the rate is relative in ""Williamson coun- 
 ty, any proposition that lessens the 
 cost of production in any other district 
 is unfair to the "Williamson county op- 
 erators. Danville district was taken 
 as a basing point. Danville district at 
 a 49-cent rate and "Williamson county 
 at a 42-cent rate are not relative. If 
 they were relative, any proposition that 
 would lessen the cost of producing coal 
 in Danville would be unjust to "Will- 
 iamson county. The f act_ that the op- 
 erators' association has presented those 
 propositions is evidence that they ac- 
 knowledge that "Williamson county at 
 42 cents is not relative. I don't believe 
 it is fair that when a district is below 
 a relative base you should try to bring 
 the other district down to that; the 
 district that is below should be brought 
 up to the basing point. I might speak 
 here and make pages of record telling 
 why "Williamson cojjnty should pay the 
 45 cents; but from the position the oper- 
 ators have taken I presume It would 
 be useless. The cost of production in 
 "Williamson county Is less by a great 
 deal than in the counties surrounding 
 it, or than any of the districts that 
 compete with It. The natural advan- 
 tages there more than balance any dif- 
 ferences in freight rates in any direc- 
 tion. "While we do not__ask to have 
 the scale of wages based on the earn- 
 ing power of the man, there are dis- 
 tricts not many miles away from there 
 where the miners earn just as much as 
 they do in Willia-mson county, and on 
 the C. & E. I. they earn a great deal 
 more. They are in practically the 
 sariie stratum of coal for seven cents a 
 ton less than in other districts, and the 
 same amount of work is required to 
 produce it. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— At the time the 
 rate was made on Saline county I tried 
 in every possible way to bring Mr. 
 Davenport to the meeting. I sent 
 long telegrams to him q^nd wrote earn- 
 est letters to him. He "paid no atten- 
 tion whatever to them, and the first 
 time I saw him was three months after 
 that meeting. He came liiTo my offlce 
 for the purpose of asking me to help 
 him in securing some business. My 
 first question was, "Did you receive 
 letters and telegrams I senf you while 
 our convention was In session? He said 
 he had received them. I asked him 
 why he did not come, and fie said be- 
 cause he could handle his miners In 
 his own way. I have heard miners 
 sav they knew he thought he could do 
 this. 
 
 MR. RYAN;— He changed his mind. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Last year he said 
 he must have the 42-cent rate. He 
 said that if we did not give it to him 
 or help him to get It he would move 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 137 
 
 that our rate be mad§ 45 cents. I 
 told him he could make any kind of 
 motion he pleased. He was the only- 
 one of all the operators in all the 
 state of Illinois who contended that 
 we were taking business from him, and 
 this in view of the fact that I got him 
 a contract for eight or ten cars a day. 
 This year the operators from Saline 
 county, in the presence of gentlemen 
 who are now here, Messrs. Huggins and 
 Jeremiah, admitted that they were not 
 competitors of Williamson county in 
 any way, but that Captain Wright's 
 mines at Hallldayboro were their com- 
 petitors in Cairo, and practically con- 
 trolled all of the business at Cairo. 
 I took issue with him and said that 
 the Big Muddy Coal and Iron 'com- 
 pany, in Jackson /county, had some 
 Cairo business. They said their busi- 
 ness was principally on the line of the 
 Big Four to the north and east of 
 where the mines are located, and 
 named the principal pomts where they 
 sold coal, but they repeated over and 
 over to Mr. Davenport that William- 
 son county did not compete with them 
 in any way. I think that makes the 
 thing clear, so far as Mr. Davenport 
 Is concerned. No new avenues have 
 been opened on the Illinois Central in 
 the last few years. Possibly the C. & 
 B. I. have had some new outlets. 1 
 want to be perfectly clear with refer- 
 ence to Mr. Davenport and the opposi- 
 tion that came from that direction. 
 The admission was made this year by 
 all the operators in Saline county that 
 we did not compete with them at all. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— At the time of 
 the . arbitration Mr. Davenport did 
 have his men under control, and I 
 think Mr. Garrison must have told 
 Mr. Peabody so when he came to Car- 
 bondale, for that was the Hrst thing he 
 threw at me. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I was not at the 
 meeting-. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: —Mr. Peabody's 
 statement was that if we got the other 
 people in line they would pay the 36- 
 cent rate. Ip regard to the competition 
 from Saline county. The 'Salipe county 
 operators have stated to me at differ- 
 ent times that they did" not come In 
 competition with Williamson county, 
 and I have contended tfiat they did 
 not. As I stated here the olher day, I 
 proved that the only competition they 
 met from Williamson county was south 
 of the river' at Cairo; that Chicago 
 was not their natural market, nor was 
 St. Louis. They do, however, come in 
 competition south of the river. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Did you not hear 
 them say there is no competition at 
 this time? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I was not pres- 
 ent. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— They made that 
 statement. 
 
 MR. HTTGGINS:— Being the maker of 
 that motion. I think it Is only rlprht and 
 proper that I should submit a few re- 
 
 marks in reference to it. I see that it 
 has created some surprise on both sides 
 of 'the house, not only among the oper- 
 ators but among the miners present. 
 While I will agree with Mr. Justi that 
 a board of miners and operators is 
 the best tribunal to settle our differ- 
 ences; in the event of a disagreement 
 what other method of settlement could 
 anyone suggest? I want to say, and I 
 want to, go on record as saying it, that 
 in my judgment we cannot allow one 
 or two places in the state to tie up 
 this agreement. I believe if we cannot 
 come to an agreement for every place 
 in the state we should not let one or 
 two places tie us up. If an agreement 
 can be reached for every other part 
 of the state but Williamson county, I 
 think we have offered a fair proposition 
 for settling that. I will say further 
 that the miners of Williamson county 
 have too much at stake to refuse ar- 
 bitraion, and, in my humble judgment, 
 the operators of Wiliamson county 
 have also too much at stake to refuse. 
 Never in the history of this movement 
 have I seen the operators so deter- 
 mined to carry out their point, and 
 never have I seen the miners so deter- 
 mined to carry out their point with re- 
 gard to Williamson county. My idea 
 in making that motion was to try to 
 get at some way of settling it that 
 would not intereter with the settle- 
 ment in the rest of the state. 
 
 (On the motion made by Mr. Huggins 
 the operators voted No, the miners 
 Aye, and it was lost.) 
 
 The sub-committee was then ad- 
 journed to meet at nine o'clock the 
 following morning. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, HI., March 6, 1902. 
 
 The sub-scale committee was called 
 to order at nine o'clock, a. m., Mr. 
 Ryan in the chair. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— W^hen we ad- 
 journed last evening the, Seventh dis- 
 trict was under consideration, William- 
 son covinty in particular. We had had 
 some discussion along the line of ar- 
 bitration. I do not want to have my 
 position in regard to arbitration mis- 
 understood. I think I am on record 
 as having accepted it once. We had 
 our fate set by arbitration once, and 
 we do not want to change it now. We 
 have right here a better board of arbi- 
 tration than can be found anywhere 
 else. The operators went into the 
 movement with the idea that they were 
 protecting themselves on any questions 
 that might arise, and with the miners' 
 organization were prepared to settle 
 any matters that might come up, that 
 at first we did not agree on. W^e think 
 our rate a fair one. I stated last night 
 that our county is overrun with men 
 seeking work. That is pretty good evi- 
 dence that there is nothing the matter 
 with the wages earned down there. 
 Now this committee on both sides is 
 
MORNING SESSION, MARCH 6. 
 
 fully informed of the question before 
 us. They know all about the business. 
 We cannot pick up a board outside and 
 give them the information this com- 
 mittee possesses, it Is out of the ques- 
 tion. We understand the situation 
 thoroughly, and if we cannot agree 
 here, any decision that might be made 
 by a board of arbitration— I mean that 
 state board of arbitration — we could 
 not agree to. If this board here can- 
 not agree, any decision rendered by 
 any other board that we are talking 
 about would be unfair to one side or 
 the other. We cannot help feeling that 
 way. We are honest in our belief and 
 convictions. That is why I spoke as I 
 did about a board of arbitration last 
 evening. We have had a rate made by 
 a board of arbitration, and that rate 
 has been twice ratified by the miners 
 and operators. If there was any ob- 
 jection by any of the operators to our 
 enjoying the rate of forty-two cents, 
 we would feel very differently about 
 the matter. I have heard none. There 
 was a little objection last year, but 
 it did not amount to much, and we 
 have heard nothing of it this year. So 
 far as we are concerned, the matter 
 of arbitration can be dropped. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Do you take the posi- 
 tion that you will not submit the mat- 
 ter to any kind of a board of arbi- 
 tration aside from this one here? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I take the posi- 
 tion that there is no board so com- 
 petent to pass on the question as this 
 one here. They have passed on It be- 
 fore; they should be able to pass on 
 It again. We don't want to get outside 
 men. If you commence that it will be 
 arbitration here and there all through 
 the state, and in the end you will find 
 it will be a very serious question to 
 both our associations. It might dis- 
 rupt our friendly relations in the end. 
 I don't know as it Is proper, but while 
 I am on the floor I might throw 
 out this suggestion. There is one ques- 
 tion in the Seventh district that has 
 not been taken up. That is the lower 
 bench. An operator and a miner might 
 be selected to hear our story, and I 
 would favor both of them being out of 
 the district. If they cannot agree call 
 in a third person and let them say 
 what shall be a fair proposition. Mr. 
 Gartside has been practically out of 
 the business so far as that vein ia 
 concerned. He cannot work under the 
 conditions that are asked of him. To 
 refer it to a committee consisting of 
 one miner and one operator will be 
 the best way of settling it. Mr. Rey- 
 nolds and Mr. Justi tried it, but we 
 could not agree down there. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I think there might 
 be a probability of getting together on 
 that lower bench question. If there 
 is not a possibility of getting together 
 on it, I want it understood that we 
 are willing at any time and at all 
 times to submit the question to a fair 
 and impartial board of arbitration. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— As long as Mr. Gar- 
 rison and Mr. Huggins agree that some 
 step of that kind should be taken, 
 there is no reason why it should not 
 be done. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Whenever dis- 
 putes arise arbitration should be re- 
 sorted to. It has been resorted to all 
 over the civilized world between em- 
 ployers and employes, and it is, I be- 
 lieve, becoming more a common prac- 
 tice from day to day. But It is an 
 unfortunate thing that the operators 
 should feel opposed to arbitration. For 
 political reasons confidence is not as 
 well established in the minds of em- 
 ployers and employes as It should be 
 in this country particularly, perhaps 
 more than any other. A board of arbi- 
 tration among ourselves, made up of 
 employers and employes would be, if 
 both sides intended to be fair about 
 it, the very best that could be selected. 
 But what is the history of that? In 
 the few short years that we have been 
 coming together trying to settle our 
 difficulties what has been the history 
 of it? The machine mine question w^as 
 referred to a board of arbitration, and 
 the history of it condemns it, and al- 
 most absolutely prevents us from ever 
 attempting it again unless we can 
 have better assurances of the fairness 
 of the miners in that respect. The 
 operators selected their three men to 
 arbitrate the machine mine question, 
 and the miners selected three men, but 
 they never could agree upon the 
 seventh, although we worked upon it 
 for very nearly a year. W^e offered 
 the governor of Wisconsin as the sev- 
 enth, we offered "Golden Rule" Jones, 
 of Toledo, an eminent lawyer whom 
 the people had confidence in, any 
 United States judge who would serve, 
 any reputable business man of national 
 fame. The miners, on the contrary, 
 offered a business man at Mount Olive, 
 and a business man at Belleville, both 
 of whom depended largely upon the 
 miners, or at any rate had a great 
 deal of their trade, and for a seventh 
 man offered Mr. John Green, who at 
 that time was holding office by the 
 miners' favor. We respect Mr. Green, 
 but what would the miners think If 
 we had offered an operator for the 
 seventh man? Would they have ac- 
 cepted him? They would not have ac- 
 cepted him, and we would not expect 
 them to. Now in the face of such a 
 history as that on arbitration, can you 
 blame the operators for not wanting 
 to go into it? How can we expect to 
 settle our affairs if they are not hand- 
 led differently from that? 
 
 I don't blame the Seventh district, 
 after having once submitted their mat- 
 ter to a political arbitration board, 
 which was agreed to by the miners, 
 and a settlement reached by that 
 board; I cannot blame them for not 
 wanting to go Into it again. I certain- 
 ly would not. And I certainly would 
 not attempt it after our experience 
 
Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 139 
 
 with the board we submitted the ma- 
 chine mining case to. I have made a 
 record here, I think in 1899, in which I 
 complained of the Carterville coal go- 
 ing into St. Louis, and it has been re- 
 ferred to here by some of the miners. 
 That coal came from the Brush mine, 
 and I so stated. At that time Mr. 
 Brush was working on a lower rate 
 than the rest of "Williamson county; 
 or if not on a lower rate, on a lower 
 rate than the miners of Williamson 
 county wanted the operators to pay. 
 But the "Williamson county operators 
 were compelled to do it. Mr. Brush at 
 that time was setting the pace for them, 
 but since then that matter has been 
 taken up and a basis established, and 
 they have increased their mining rate 
 in Wiliamson county, based upon that 
 arbitration. It has been shown that no 
 new conditions have come up in Wil- 
 liamson county, in that they have a 
 better field. On the contrary, it has 
 been shown that their business is be- 
 ing displaced by oil coming up through 
 Texas from the gulf. They lost a large 
 contract in St. Louis of four or five 
 cars a day in one place alone. There 
 is nothing in the competition that the 
 operators complain of, and if that is so 
 I don't see how they can be getting 
 very much the best of it, and I don't 
 believe they are. I have been down in 
 that field and made an inspection of 
 one mine for some outside parties, and 
 I was astonished to find the adverse 
 conditions under which the Big Muddy 
 field is working. I don't think there 
 ought to be any other attempt on the 
 part of the miners to force that rate. 
 I believe the miners that work in that 
 district are doing well, and I don't 
 think the operators are getting any 
 more than they are entitled to. These 
 things being true, I think we ought to 
 pass Williamson county and give it 
 the rate asked by the operators. 
 
 MR. NEWS AM:— I want to make a 
 few remarks on this arbitration. In 
 my time I have acted on those boards. 
 I have never in my life known it to 
 be a success among miners and opera- 
 tors, especially when it comes outside 
 of a meeting like this.. Are the opera- 
 tors and miners in this convention go- 
 ing to disgrace themselves by going 
 outside of this meeting and saying they 
 were not honorable enough and intelli- 
 gent enough to arbitrate their own 
 matters? Do you think there is a 
 party of men in the state of Illinois 
 better fitted to arbitrate this question 
 than the men here today? If there is, 
 I want someone to get up and explain 
 how it happens. We have practical 
 men here, men of good education, men 
 of good, common sense, and men who 
 have worked in all seams of coal. Tou 
 go outside of this body of men and get 
 an arbitration board, and It is doubtful 
 In my mind if you can get in the state 
 of Illinois a body of men who could 
 do it as well. It is folly to go out from 
 here and take a state board, a political 
 
 board, any lawyers or other business 
 men, I don't care who they are, and 
 ask them to arbitrate this matter. I 
 would feel that we had disgraced our- 
 selves as miners and operators if we 
 had to do it. I can go back many 
 years and show you cases where this 
 has been tried. I can go back to the 
 60's and name instances, and they all 
 failed, "you cannot get a committee 
 of this kind that would be satisfactory 
 to both miners and operators. It sim- 
 ply cannot be done. There is no one 
 who knows the conditions of the mines 
 better than the operators and the min- 
 ers together. If there is anyone else 
 I should like to have you produce him. 
 Is there any lawyer or business man 
 in Peoria who would take a miner or 
 an operator to arbitrate his matters? 
 It is foolish to think of such things. 
 I am in favor of arbitrating our mat- 
 ters between ourselves. When two men 
 want to be fair they will never get 
 far aplart. We will take these matters 
 up in this light and be honest and 
 frank about It. 
 
 I move that we select a committee 
 of two, one operator and one miner be 
 selected, they to select a third, to take 
 up the matter of the lower bench Jack- 
 son county shipping mines. (Seconded 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move that 
 the rate in Williamson county be 42 
 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Tes, the miners 
 voted No, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The committee ap- 
 pointed to take up the question of low 
 coal in the Fourth district is ready to 
 report. We had a meeting last night 
 but were unable to agree. I don't know 
 that any good reasons were given last 
 night, any more than there was yes- 
 terday afternoon, why they should 
 have that extra price. They occupied 
 the position of the restaurant keeper 
 that my friend Taylor was telling me 
 about. A man went into a cheap res- 
 taurant to get a meal. He had bought 
 him some steak, potatoes and a pot of 
 coffee. "When he came to pay the* bill 
 it was $2.50. He protested against this, 
 saying that he had only had a small 
 steak, some potatoes and a pot of 
 coffee, and he thought fifty cents would 
 be a good price for it, and asked how 
 they figured out their charge. The 
 restaurant keeper said, "We don't fig- 
 ure it out; we need the money." I 
 don't think the question of low coal 
 in a few places in one mine ought to 
 tie up the whole committee. If this 
 committee can't agree on a little low 
 coal in a certain district, I think the 
 scale should be settled for the district 
 and then they can go home and settle 
 the matter of the low coal. If they 
 don^t want to work in this coal they 
 need not. 
 
 (I move you that the rate for the 
 Fourth district be fixed at 49 cents. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Moorshead.) 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— There have been no 
 
140 
 
 Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 arguments advanced here why we 
 should pay a higher rate. The price 
 in the Fifth and Ninth districts where 
 that Is established was with the under- 
 standing at the time that it was on 
 account of the higher grade of coal 
 there. That coal sells (or more money 
 in the market. That is why that rate 
 was established; it was based on com- 
 petitive conditions. That has governed 
 this matter right through, and there 
 is no reason why it should not con- 
 tinue to govern it, "We certainly can- 
 not pay any extra price in the Fourthj 
 district, because it would shut up a 
 mine absolutely that had any of that 
 low coal. I know of no mine in the 
 district, except Litchfield, that it would 
 affect materially, but we don't know 
 what will happen. Some of the other 
 mines may get into low coal occasional- 
 ly. I think it is the rule in the Fourth 
 district that where the coal gets down 
 so low that a man cannot make wages 
 at It they stop. They cannot pay any 
 more money for it; they simply have 
 to abandon it. In some districts they 
 continue to work and pay a higher 
 price. That has been true at Assump- 
 tion, and that is on account of its 
 being long wall work where they can- 
 not conveniently stop, as they can in 
 room and pillar work. We have spent 
 a great deal of time here, and I think 
 this matter should be settled now. 
 
 MR. DELBHANTY:— I cannot agree 
 to that in the position I am in. I 
 would rather that this was left over 
 for a while longer until we can confer 
 among ourselves and see what can be 
 done about it. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— We are willing tc 
 agree to anything that is reasonable. 
 If Mr. Delehanty wants further delay 
 on it, and there is any prospect of get- 
 ting it fixed up, we will not stand in 
 the way. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,:— I would like to 
 have action deferred on this for a short 
 time until I can talk with this com- 
 mittee myself. 
 
 ME. RYAN:— If there are no objec- 
 tions the matter will be deferred. What 
 disposition have you made of the Gal- 
 latin county price? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. Justi spoke 
 to me about it, and I told him he had 
 better notify Mr. Murrey to take that 
 question up. I don't like to have It 
 taken up unless Mr. Murrey is here. 
 I can give my side of the matter to 
 the scale committee if they want to 
 take it up if Mr. Murrey is not here. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The operators' associa- 
 tion is not prepared to take the ques- 
 tion up. They know nothing about it. 
 We would rather have the scale entire- 
 ly silent about that unless we can get 
 Mr. Murrey present. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Why not refer it to Mr. 
 Jeremiah and Mr. Murrey to make a 
 scale. It was referred to Mr. Jeremiah 
 and Mr. Armstrong last year, and they 
 settled it. ' 
 
 MR. BENT: — If Mr. Murrey does not 
 come we will do that. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I made the suggestion 
 to refer to Mr. Jeremiah and Mr. Mur- 
 rey,- and they can get together as soon 
 as Mr. Murrey comes. 
 
 MR. BENT:— You mean as a com- 
 mittee? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Yes. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We will agree to that. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The Eighth district 
 is not settled. I make a motion that 
 the No. 5 seam at Pekin be 56 cents. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I move to amend by 
 making the price 64% cents. (Second- 
 ed.) 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The reason I move 
 to have this made fifty-six cents is be- 
 cause last year and the year before 
 that same seam, (which is the No. 5 
 seam) mined in Fulton and Peoria 
 counties, mined in Tazwell county, and 
 mined all around those people, has 56 
 cents. The other day in our committee 
 room the delegate from Pekin made 
 some assertion that I, when I was 
 operating a mine in that field, made a 
 price of ten cents per ton higher than 
 over on the Peoria side. I didn't think 
 at the time it could be true, I didn't 
 think I ever made such a price, because 
 I knew that If I had I could not have 
 competed. I looked over my books and 
 found that I was paying 62% cents for 
 screened coal; and I also found that 
 over on this side of the river they were 
 paying 62% cents at the same time. 
 That settled that argument at once. 
 I admit that these three small mines, 
 which are worked In the No. 5 seam, 
 did push their coal from the face at 
 that time. They have had the rule of 
 not paying for horsebacks, but paying 
 it on the price of coal. They have the 
 same conditions that Peoria and other 
 parts of Tazwell county has. They 
 must pay for their dirt by the inch. 
 That is settled in the sub-district, 
 which has been agreed on thoroughly, 
 and I am informed that they are doing 
 just that thing. Now, to be frank 
 and fair to both sides, I will say that 
 these gentlemen are not competltlors 
 of mine at all, and I want to see them 
 treated as I would want them to treat 
 me, and as 1 would want the miners 
 to treat me. We take an operator In 
 the No.* 5 seam, where there are mines 
 on each side of him, with the same 
 seam of coal, probably a little lower at 
 that point, and we base them on an 
 arbitrary price here because we see we 
 can do it. I don't believe in that sys- 
 tem at all. I admit that in the past 
 these gentlemen have been paying 60 
 cents a ton, based on that at Spring- 
 field, but they kicked very hard against 
 it at the time the rate was made. I 
 am sure Mr. Mitchell will remember 
 this. I objected to these gentlemen 
 coming into our district, but the dele- 
 gates came Into the meeting at Spring- 
 field and Insisted that they come into 
 our district. I objected to; Tazwell 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 141 
 
 coming- in, because they had the condi- 
 tion of paying for horsebaclcs by the 
 ton of coal, and we did not have it, and 
 I knew it would cause trouble in our 
 district. I believe that every operator 
 and miner In this room will side with 
 me on this paint. Take a line and 
 draw if east and west through this 
 state, and you know that every mile 
 you go south in that ,seanx the coal 
 is thicker. Now if No. 5 seam two miles 
 north should be 56 cents, and you go a 
 few miles south and it is 62% cents, 
 then BO a few miles south and In that 
 same seam of coal and you come down 
 to 53 cents. Is there any justice in 
 that claim? There is no justice in it. 
 I want to say, and be frank and truth- 
 ful about it, that that same delegate 
 when he was operating this very seam 
 came to me and kicked and kicked be- 
 cause he could not compete With the 
 rest of the operators in the field. I 
 would like to see these operators and 
 this delegate brought In on that ques- 
 tion before it is voted on. I can see 
 no reason why those mines should be 
 raised 2% cents, nor can I see why 
 they should not be on the same scale 
 that the other mines in the same 
 county have, with the same seam of 
 coal, and paying under the same condi- 
 tions for the dirt that is in the coal. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The agreement 
 made last year was, I believe, a tenta- 
 tive agreement. They claimed all the 
 time that they were entitled to the 
 Peoria rate if they conformed to the 
 Peoria conditions in regard to dead 
 work. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not person- 
 ally familiar with the vein over there, 
 although I have heard the arguments 
 and contentions on both sides; but I 
 think the reason their rate has been 
 fixed higher is because of its being ex- 
 tremely dirty coal and diflScult to 
 work, and that the conditions there are 
 not the same as In other places in the 
 seam. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— As to the investi- 
 gation conducted by Mr. Justi and Mr. 
 Reynolds. I a^ not familiar with the 
 result of it. We have argued this matter 
 last year and this, and the operators 
 are contending for a 56-cent rate at 
 Pekin. The miners are contending for 
 more on the ground of dirty coS,l and 
 because it requires more powder. In 
 many cases it requires two shots to 
 produce the same amount of coal that 
 one will produce on this side of the 
 river. My understanding is, and al- 
 ways has been, that it is full of slips 
 and horsebacks, a,nd that in shooting 
 out the slips and horsebacks, notwith- 
 standing the fact that the operators 
 pay for the dirt, the miner loses a 
 great amount of coal that must be 
 thrown back with the rock. In all of 
 the arguments we have made we have 
 produced evidence that this mine on 
 the other side of the river only paid 
 a switching rate as against a freight 
 rate paid from this side of the river. 
 
 They are within the yard limits at 
 Pekin, and all that is necessary for 
 them to pay is a switching charge. For 
 the same vein of coal at Mount Pulaski 
 we have already, made a scale of 66 
 cents. They are competitors, and what 
 Is strange to me is that In all of our 
 scale meetings and all of our conven- 
 tions Pekin is only represented by a 
 few operators who represent about 
 twenty per sent of the output of the 
 Pekin mines. While the Eighth scale 
 district was out the other day the 
 matter of freight rates and switching 
 charges, as I have stated them here, 
 was brought up, and it has never been 
 disputed by Mr. Newsam or the opera- 
 tors from this district that they were 
 paying more of a freight rate from 
 this side of the river than the Pekin 
 mines were. Ap I said before, I don't 
 know anything much about the investi- 
 gation that was made there last year. 
 I do know that the Pekin mines have 
 always had a hard name among min- 
 ers throughout the entire state. I don't 
 care where you go you will find that 
 the miners are not breaking their necks 
 to get to Pekin to work if they can 
 get over on this side of the river. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is the Pekin output all 
 disposed of In the city of Pekin? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I think so; the 
 operators say it Is. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The discussion 
 on the matter of the Pekin rate brings 
 forcibly to our minds the fact that in 
 the making of a mining rate based upon 
 competitive conditions both sides have 
 got to suffer everywhere in almost 
 every mine — I might say every mine. 
 Go Into the northern field and the 
 miners must suffer very much there 
 as compared with the miner in the 
 thick seam. W^hen you get Into the 
 thick part of the No. 6 seam the oper- 
 ator suffers. Tou penalize him In his 
 good conditions that he may not drive 
 the more unfortunate operator with 
 his thin seam out of the market. That 
 Is the case at Pekin. The Pekin mine, 
 unfortunately. Is located in a part of 
 the No. 5 seam where It is extremely 
 faulty, but it is not the only mine in 
 the state of Illinois located among 
 others working In the same seam 
 where they have faulty, and seriously 
 faulty, conditions underground that 
 work a hardship on the miner; but so 
 long as you work on competitive lines 
 somebody has toi suffer all the time. In 
 the thin seam the miner suffers very 
 much, and the operator has to suffer 
 some also. Tou get into the thick seam 
 and the operator suffers entirely, and 
 I might say unjustly, for this reason: 
 Should any operator In locating his 
 shaft in this thick vein of coal, after 
 he has developed a certain distance — 
 as we did at No. 1 mine In Glen Carbon 
 — find that on one side of it the coal 
 ran out entirely, and on the other side 
 the condition of the roof was such 
 that It could not be maintained, and 
 the mine finally had to be abandoned^ 
 
142 
 
 Morning Session, March 6, 
 
 the operator loses every cent of money 
 he put into It. Who comes and com- 
 pensates him? No one, he has to 
 pocket his loss. Therefore I say the 
 operator who gets good conditions un^ 
 der ground should be permitted to en- 
 joy them. We have banded together 
 here so that the operators in evpry dis- 
 trict might exist, notwithstanding the 
 different conditions that prevail; and 
 so long as we work on these lines 
 some miners will have to accept less 
 wages than others. So long as we work 
 on competitive lines some operators 
 will have to receive less compensation 
 than they are really entitled to. It Is 
 useless to come in here ajid 'taJk about 
 the deadwork that a miner has to do 
 in this mine, and how his wages are 
 shrunk as compared with the miners 
 working in the same seam of coal in 
 other mines. If he cannot stand these 
 conditions while we are working on 
 competitive lines, then those dissatis- 
 fied miners should move out of there 
 and get into the places where they have 
 better conditions. It 5s of no use to 
 try to put a higher mining rate on a 
 mine working in the same seam as 
 others and expect the property to live 
 and compete with the others. If you 
 wish to destroy the property you are 
 going the right way about it by estab- 
 lishing a higher rate In one mine than 
 the competitors of that mine have. As 
 long as we are working on the base 
 we now have; that Is, compettition and 
 regulating the earnings of the men on 
 those lines, so that one operator can- 
 not drive the other out of the market, 
 some miners will suffer more or less 
 and some operators will suffer more or 
 less. It Is a burden we have all got to 
 carry. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Mr. Russell made 
 the statement that these gentlemen 
 had only a switching rate while others 
 had to pay the regular rate. I would 
 like to ask him one question. Are you 
 acquainted with other mines over In 
 Tazwell county that ship into Pekin? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am acquainted 
 with some of them. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Do you know the 
 rate that other mines get? Do you 
 know what they have to pay to get 
 Into Pekin, those mines on the other 
 side of the river that ship into Pekin, 
 to the same market these gentlemen 
 ship to? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— The rate runs from 
 49.7 to 66 cents. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— There are three or 
 four other mines as near to Pekin and 
 in the same seam of coal. 
 MR. RYAN:— What mines are they? 
 MR. NEWSAM:— At Wesley City. 
 There are two mines right on the edge 
 of Pekin almost. I want to be fair in 
 this matter. I don't want statements 
 that are not right made here. I am an 
 operator and a shipper, and I say It is 
 hard for any operator in this room, 
 when you come right down to facts, 
 to say that one operator has a switch- 
 
 ing charge and the other has not. In 
 years past I have tried to find out these 
 things, and I have found it impossible. 
 If I was in the place of these Pekin 
 men, or if any of the delegates were in 
 their places, and saw mines within a 
 few miles of Pekin coming over into 
 that city with the same rate I had, in 
 the same vein of coal, and 1 had to pay 
 more for dirt, I should think I ought 
 to have the same rate they had. The 
 switching rate over on the Big Four 
 and the P. & P. U. on the edge of the 
 town has to be considered. I don't 
 believe the latter would let'the former 
 take advantage of them, and I don't 
 believe they do. If these gentlemen 
 have to pay more for their dirt In the 
 same vein, why should not they have 
 the same rate for their coal? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— We contend that 
 the Pekin operatbrs have received a re- 
 duction of 11 cents. The Pekin op- 
 erators were paying, . as Mr. Newsam 
 has stated, a tonnage price for the 
 dirt, or paying so much to the miners 
 producing the coal and took care of 
 their own dirt. That price was 71 
 cents. They have iDeen reduced to 
 sixty cents, making a reduction of 11 
 cents a ton for the dirt, and all of the 
 figures that have been produced from 
 the miners' side of the house have gone 
 to prove that it does not require more 
 than three cents a ton to take care of 
 that dirt. "W'e contend that the rate. 
 as compared with the former rate at 
 Pekin, is fair. The switching rate that 
 I have referred to I have referred to 
 many times before, and this is not the 
 first time Mr. Newsam has tried to re- 
 fute the statement I have made. The 
 switching rate was referred to In the 
 first place by a gentleman who is pres- 
 ent, and who was for a number of 
 years an operator in the Pekin district. 
 Today he is a miner, and it was 
 through his statements that the switch- 
 ing rate was brought out. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I am now the old- 
 est miner in Pekin. I sunk the first 
 shaft that was ever sunk In that vein 
 of coal in Pekin. I put the first cut- 
 ting in and I fired the first shot and 
 sent up the first ton of coal. In that 
 ton of coal there was 12% cents a ton 
 between Pekin and Peoria, in favor of 
 Pekin. From that time up ^o the time 
 those gentlemen got possession of the 
 mines there was always 12% cents, or 
 not less than that, and there were 
 times when it was more than 12% cents 
 in Pekin over Peoria. I was in the 
 coal business in Pekin, putting It all 
 together, about twenty-seven years. I 
 am here to say I never got a Ton of coal 
 dug there that didn't pay as much as 
 12% cents of a differential between Pe- 
 kin and Peoria. I will say further 
 that those gentlemen who are now try- 
 ing to force those conditions on us 
 were miners; most of them worked for 
 me. I am here to say that they never 
 received less than 12% cents a ton for 
 digging coal between Pekin and Peoria. 
 
Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 143 
 
 Some of the men were there when 
 they were children, and their fathers 
 worked for me. We organized in 1899. 
 We were receiving 72% a ton for forlc 
 coal. Peoria was paying 45 cents a 
 ton for mine-run. When we organized 
 we took Peoria for a basing point. We 
 then added on 12% cents a ton, which 
 made 57% cents. There was some dis- 
 pute, and our operators objected, and 
 there was some little discussion on it. 
 We were aware, just as they were, that 
 they were not entitled to so much of a 
 differential on mine-run as we were on 
 fork coal. Finally we reached an 
 agreement, and that is where we began 
 to work by putting the horsebacks on 
 the tonnage. We told them we would 
 strike the horse backs off if they would 
 place 2% cents on the connage, which 
 made sixty cents a ton. W^e were re- 
 ceiving that sixty cents a ton without 
 pay for horse backs when the Peoria 
 and Fulton conditions were 45 cents. In 
 1900, as you all know, there was an un- 
 iversal raise of nine cents. We got 
 that nine cents, and also two cenTs of 
 the four we claimed we lost when the 
 operators said we lost nothing. That 
 made us 71 cents. In 1901 they went 
 to- Springfield and took off the whole 
 11 cents and placed us under Peoria and 
 Fulton county conditions. They took 
 off 11 cents and gave us in place of 
 that four cents, which made a reduc- 
 tion of seven cents. Now, Mr. Presi- 
 dent, I will show that Pekln has been 
 shot at, and shot at all she can afford 
 to be. Take Bloomington next. It 
 was Pekin men that sunk the Bloom- 
 ington shaft that is now running. When 
 that shaft was sunk it was put on the 
 Pekin price for digging. It was the 
 same vein and it had the same condi- 
 tions. In 1900 Bloomington was re- 
 ceiving 62 cents and pay for horsebacxs; 
 we were receiving 60 cents and no pay 
 for horse backs. In 1900 Bloomington 
 was placed at 71_cents and paid for 
 horsebacks; we were placed at 71 and 
 no pay for horsebacks. In 1901 Bloom- 
 ington still retained her 71 cents a ton 
 and pay for horsebacks, and we were 
 put down to 60 cents and paid for 
 horsebacks. Today Bloomington is 
 receiving 71 cents and we are receiv- 
 ing 60 cents and pay for horsebacks. 
 
 I think I am justified In showing a 
 few figures here. They are the oper- 
 ators' figures; If they want to dispute 
 them they can. First take the Boland- 
 er Brothers. In 1900 they worked six 
 men 200 days. They produced 4012 
 tons of coal in that year. That divid- 
 ed by the six makes 668 tons. They 
 have got it here 65 cents. That will 
 make $434.20 for 200 days. We have 
 got to take out about 20 per cent for 
 expenses. That makes for each man 
 $347.46 for 200 days or for a man's year s 
 work, $1.73 a day. That is the amount 
 those men earned in 1900. 
 
 Now I will take Grant & Sons. They 
 worked 20 men 200 days and they pro- 
 duced 8240 tons of coal. That makes 
 
 412 tons to the man, and each man 
 earned $267.80. Take out 20 ger cent— 
 sometimes it is more than that and 
 sometimes it may be less — for expenses, 
 and we find the net earnings of these 
 men for 200 days, or for the year's 
 work, to be $214.24, $1.07 a day. And 
 they come in "here and waat to reduce 
 the miners' another 15 cents, and say 
 they want them to work. for 90 cents 
 a day! 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I understand you 
 to say you were operating those mines 
 for a number of years? 
 
 MR. RUNDLB:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Will you tell this 
 jury how many times you kicked be- 
 cause you could Tiot compete with 
 Peoria and Springfield coal in Pekin? 
 
 MR. RUNDLB:— Because I always 
 paid, as I stated, 12% cents a ton of a 
 differential, and I could not get miners 
 to work even at that price. ' 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Why do you com- 
 plain that you could not get miners? 
 You claimed your mines were closed 
 down because you could not compete 
 with Springfield and Peoria. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I don't think I ever 
 did say I' closed my mines because I 
 could not compete. Our coal was all 
 sold in Pekin. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— You admitted it to 
 me, and came to me to plead your 
 cause. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When was this? 
 
 MR. NfiWSAM:— In the 70's or 8t)'s. 
 both, many times. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I suppose you are 
 aware that the points that competed 
 with him then have been raised? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — I suppose they are. 
 That is what I want to get at. When 
 you were mining your coal at 72 cents. 
 Mr. Rundle, you were mining fork 
 coal? Peoria was getting 45 cents for 
 mine-run coal. You claim you were 
 not paid for your horsebacks. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— Peoria wasn't eith- 
 er at that time. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Peoria always paid 
 something for horsebacks. There nev- 
 er was a time when we did not pay, 
 either in powder or in some other way. 
 You pushed your ooal at that time, 
 didn't you? 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— Yes, slr,~ and so did 
 everybody else. You said there was a 
 time I did close my mine. I never 
 closed my mine but once. And, gen- 
 tlemen, when I went out of business 
 my miners forced me to pay 20 cents 
 a ton more than you were paying, or 
 anyone else in Peoria. I offered the 
 15 cents a ton, but tligy wouldn't take 
 it, and that is what put tfle out of busi- 
 ness. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— You stated that in 
 1900 you received 72 cents a ton for 
 fork coal. You didn't get paid for 
 horsebacks and you pushed your coal. 
 When Peoria county was paying 45 
 cents for mine-run coal, Peoria didn't 
 push her coal in 1900. The records 
 will show that. 
 
Ui 
 
 Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I wish to correct 
 Mr. Newsam. He says that I stated 
 we were dig-ging coal for 72 cents In 
 1900. That is not correct, it was In 
 1899. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— You stated that in 
 1900 Peliin mined forlc coal for 72 
 cents a ton, while Peoria paid 45 cents 
 for mine-run. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— Mr. Newsam is 
 mistaken. We dug fork coal up to the 
 time we organized in 1899. Since that 
 time we have dug no fork coal, and I 
 don't think the operators have a right 
 to go back of the time we organized. 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I don't know any- 
 thing about when they stopped forking 
 coal in Pekin. I don't want to mix 
 him up; 1 want to get facts for this 
 meeting. 
 MR. RUNDLE:— You will get them. 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I have his state- 
 ment here, 72 cents in Pekin In 1900 
 for fork coal, pushing their coal and 
 no pay for horsebacks. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Rundle says 
 that was in 1899. 
 
 < MR. NEWSAM:— We will take that 
 year. He says there was always 12% 
 cents' differential between Peoria and 
 Fulton counties, and sometimes more 
 than that, and Pekin, and yet it only 
 has 27 per cent of screenings, they 
 pushed the coal, and had no pay for 
 horsebacks. When you figure it out 
 it shows that even at the time the 
 Horsebacks came in that Pekin at that 
 time was digging coal below Peoria 
 county. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I will answer Mr. 
 Newsam by making this statement. I 
 have made no assertion here that there 
 has always been a differential of 12% 
 cents; but I did make the statement 
 that there was always as much of a dif- 
 ferential as 12% cents before these gen- 
 tlemen got possession of the mines, 
 which was 12 or 13 years ago. Since 
 that time the miners have been pulled 
 down, and they have dug for all kinds 
 of prices. I quit business after the 
 strike of 1894, and I am here to sav 
 that if the miners hadn't gon© to pieces 
 at that time I would not be digging 
 coal today. After the strike of 1894 
 the men went to work like sheep all 
 around here, and Mr. Newsam knows 
 it, at 35 cents a ton, and did push their 
 ooal to the .parting, because I went and 
 dug coal at Wesley City, and had to 
 push the coal to the parting. When 
 they were digging coal all around here 
 for 35 cents a ton I asked our men to 
 come down five cents, and they said 
 they would not dig one pound of coal 
 unless we paid fifty cents for it and 
 pull the coal from the face. I said If 
 that was the way they felt I would 
 not turn another wheel, and I did shut 
 down, and they were sorry then. I 
 had a great deal of money Invested 
 there, and of course I lost everything, 
 and when it all went then I went and 
 dug coal for a living as I did pretty 
 nearly fifty years ago. When Mr. 
 
 Newsam makes the statements he does, 
 I am going to make something person- 
 al out of this. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We will not permit that 
 —talk to the subject under discussion. 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Let him go ahead. 
 MR. RYAN:— It will not be allowed. 
 MR. PICTON:— I will have to correct 
 Mr. Newsam that in 1899 they pushed 
 their coal and got no pay for slips, and 
 that in Peoria they did not. The same 
 conditions prevailed in Peoria in re- 
 gard to pushing their coal and getting 
 no pay for it. If this was not the 
 practice, it was only in a few places 
 and through the good will of the oper- 
 ators. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I thank Mr. PictOn 
 for his answer. I didn't say there was 
 nothing paid in Fulton and Peoria 
 counties. I said we always paid some- 
 think — sometimes in powder, sometimes 
 in other ways. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— They did not pay for 
 it in some of the mines. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— That is my state- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Newsam may 
 have paid: the other operators did not, 
 as a rule. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- That is my state- 
 ment exactly. 
 
 MR. BOLANDER:— I do not see why 
 you insist on going so far back. If you 
 do that in the mining rate I will admit 
 there used to be a differential, but the 
 freight rate was 30 cents where It is now 
 only from seven to ten cents. I would 
 like to ask Mr. Rundle what was the 
 lowest price he paid for TiiTne-run when 
 he ran the Holley mine? 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— Fifty cents and 
 pulled the coal from the face. That 
 was the least I paid mine-run. 
 
 MR. BOLANDER:— W^as it not 45 
 cents? 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I never paid less 
 than fifty cents, and I paid sixty cents 
 a ton for mine-run when they had no 
 union. The union had gone, and they 
 werS digging at Pekin at that time at 
 72 cents, and my miners made we pay 
 that price. They voted to have the 
 coal pulled from the face in 1893, and 
 they threw off five cents. I was pay- 
 ing 73 then, and they made it 68 cents. 
 I to pull the coal, from the face. They 
 paid 63 cents here for about two or 
 three months_in 1893. 
 
 MR.' BOLANDER:— If our men are 
 starving to death when they are get- 
 ting 60 cents a ton and pay for horse- 
 backs, I don't know it. Mr. Rundle 
 gave figures for the men's wages for a 
 year. I can prove that some of them 
 got that in three months. At the last 
 pay some of them got $50. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— Are not the figures 
 I produced here the facts? 
 
 MR. BOLANDER:— I think they 
 came out of a fiction foundry. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— If you deny it I 
 will produce the evidence in print. They 
 are not my figures; they are taken 
 from the operators' figures. 
 
Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 145 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— For what year? 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— The year 1900. 
 
 MR. BOLANDER:— If you take an 
 average man's wages, a man who 
 works all the time, it will be better. 
 We have men who go down there and 
 sleep all day and never send out a 
 bushel of coal. I suppose everybody 
 has that kind of miner. But if the 
 men are good miners they make good 
 wages. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— A good place makes 
 a good man sometimes. Probably the 
 miner had' a bad place and he just lay 
 down, beside it. 
 
 MR. BOLANDER:— "We may have 
 places that will be bad for a day or 
 two; but we have had this for six 
 months. That is what I am speaking 
 of. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— If a good man 
 had a bad place, would he not go some 
 other place and get a good •one? 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— That , would make 
 another bad miner and then there 
 would be two. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I thought I had 
 exhausted all of my vocabulary over 
 in the committee room. I am conver- 
 sant with both sides of the question. 
 During the last nine months I certain- 
 ly was placed in a position where my 
 observation led me to believe there was 
 a differential between the two sides of 
 the river. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— "When I came to 
 work for Mr. Newsam it was in 1878-9, 
 at the Orchard mine. I worked dur- 
 ing that summer. The prices that pre- 
 vailed there during- 1898-9 were nine 
 and nine and one-half cents a bushel. 
 On the other side of the river two 
 years later there was four cents a bu- 
 shel at the Hope mines. There was 
 also a consideration that was paid be- 
 yond that, and that was a flfteen-csnt 
 differential for the amount of dirt they 
 had to contend with, and they did not 
 have that on this side of the river. 
 During the two summers I worked on 
 this side of the river I never got a cent 
 for horsebacks. "W^hile in some cases 
 they had considerable dirt to contend 
 with, to retain- the men they would 
 give them some little consideratiop, ac- 
 cording to the feeling of the mine man- 
 ager. In 1901 the contention was 
 raised in the meeting in Springfield 
 that they were displaced in the mar- 
 ket. The prevailing price in the Pe- 
 kin field at that time was 71 cents, 
 taking the dirt aiJestion altogether. The 
 settlement was effected by Mr. Zellers. 
 They claimed at that time that they 
 were displaced in the inarket and had 
 no trade. We still contend that they 
 were entitled to that price. It was 
 decided upon by President Russell 
 and Mr. Justi to fix the basis of sixty 
 cents pending a three months' trial to 
 determine the amount of dirt there was 
 there. It was then said that the su- 
 perior quality of the coal entitled them 
 to a smaller differential, and they made 
 it sm-Jller. I think they certainly 
 
 must have regained their trade, be- 
 cause the shipping mine in the Pekin 
 field has worked 57 days from the 27th 
 of May to the first of August, while 
 the mine that they claimed displaced 
 them on this side of the river had 
 worked 30% days. That shows that 
 they must have made a gain on the 60 
 cents basis. Lately they have been 
 saying that they had not made a dol- 
 lar during the year. If I was work- 
 ing a mine and I could not make a 
 dollar I certainly would not run the 
 mine, nor would I thank a man to run 
 a mine for my benefit. Considering all 
 the circumstances connected with the 
 case, I think they have regained the 
 market, and I think we should have the 
 differential we are asking at the pres- 
 ent time. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I believe Mr. "Wil- 
 son tries to be honest in his state- 
 ments. He made the statement that 
 he worked for me' in the Orchard mine 
 in 1878-9, and never got paid for horse- 
 backs. I know that Mr. "Wilson work- 
 ed at the Orchard mine. I no* make 
 the statement again, so that there will 
 be, no misunderstanding, that we al-i 
 ways paid something for horsebacks in 
 the Peoria district. It may have been 
 a keg of powder, it may have been 
 something else, but we always paid 
 something. It seems to me a long time 
 to remember back to 1878 whether or 
 not he got anything for horsebacks. I, 
 shall certainly look over my books, and 
 1 1 believe I shall find your name with 
 others as having been paid for horse- 
 backs. The amount may not have been 
 all the horsebacks were worth, but 
 something was always pai(f, and I don't 
 think I made an exception in yojir 
 case. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— When you say "we" 
 dO' you mean your company, or Peoria 
 county as a whole? 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I meant Peoria 
 county as a whole when I said we paid 
 something all the time. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— They didn't pay it 
 as a whole at that time. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- Were you working 
 in Peoria county in 1879? 
 
 MR. PICTON: — Certainly I was not. 
 
 MR. NEWfeAM:— How do you know 
 they didn't pay it? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I feel very 
 much as you do that what happened 
 in 1878-9, or any date between 1870 and 
 the time we organized in 1897, can 
 serve but little purpose here in deter- 
 mining the mining rate that should be 
 paid. Mr. Wilson started to talk about 
 the differential between the working 
 conditions of the mines on both sides of 
 the river, and that, while having some 
 bearing upon the case, cannot deter- 
 mine it altogether. As I stated a short 
 time ago, we are endeavoring to work 
 on competitive lines, and the question 
 is whether the mine at Pekin can oper- 
 ate competitively on this higher rate 
 that is being asked for by the miners 
 or not. That is the question. Insofar 
 
146 
 
 Morning Session, March 6. 
 
 as Pekin and Peoria are concern^ 
 ed, I think they are highly ooir.- 
 petl'tive markets, and I don't know 
 of any mark;et outside of Chicago 
 a.hd St. Lojuisi, , 'that are miore com- 
 peitltlve than Peoria and Pekln. 
 Mines in Sprin-gfleld as well as 
 mines located on the road leading into 
 Peoria are shipping coal into those 
 markets. Now the question is whether, 
 under a competitive condition, the Pe- 
 kin mines can operate on a higher rate 
 than they are now working on? I don't 
 know enough about the Pekin mine to 
 determine that, but it seems to me that 
 If we can confine ourselves to the com- 
 petitive part of it we will come nearer 
 'settling It than if we undertake to 
 talk about what was paid for horse- 
 backs and deadwork in 1878-9 and 1890. 
 We were all foot-free for a long period 
 between those dates. Especially is that 
 true for the ten years between '87 and 
 '97. The question of the conditions un- 
 derground has a less bearing upon this 
 matter than the possibility of a mine 
 working under competitive conditions. 
 The miners from the Pekin mine have 
 .got to understand that if they have 
 got very unsatisfactory conditions un- 
 derground they will have to carry a 
 very considerable portion of that bui- 
 den. All of the miners in the thin 
 seams of the north, particularly the No. 
 5 and what is called the Pekin seam, 
 have got to bear a heavier burden than 
 the miners who are working in the 
 thick No. 6 seam, and they must bear 
 that in mind in attempting to make 
 a mining rate. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I quite agree with 
 Mr. Moorshead that in determining 
 the rate you have to take into consid- 
 eration the competitive conditions. I 
 think he will agree with me, however, 
 that there are considerations that en- 
 ter even into that. Where conditions 
 are abnormal In a vein that has always 
 been a consideration in determining the 
 scale of wages, and if the scale at 
 Pekin is to be determined absolutely 
 on its competitive opportunities, it has 
 been shown here that from time im- 
 memorial there has been a higher rate 
 paid Pekin than in Peoria. It has 
 been shown that at times the differ- 
 ential amounted to as much as 18 or 20 
 cents a ton. The differential at this 
 time is less than at any other time 
 in the Pekin and Peoria mines. The 
 miners have assumed the burden of 
 the deadwork and the adverse condi- 
 tions that prevail there, and it seems 
 to me it is not right for the operators 
 there to come in and ask the same price 
 that is paid in Peoria where they have 
 njot those burdens. The operators at 
 Pekin must realize that they have 
 some of the burdens to bear, and not 
 expect the miners to bear all of them. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— While all you 
 say is true, and we admit that the 
 operators have got to bear some of the 
 burdens, and that there has been a 
 wide differential, is it not also true 
 
 that a great number of mines have 
 been sunk since that time? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— And is it not 
 true that competitive conditions have 
 never been so severe as they are 
 today? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That may be 
 true, but that evidence has not been 
 brought out here. There have been 
 no statements made here that would 
 indicate that the shipping facilities 
 have changed. There has been no evi- 
 dence offered to show that the Pekin 
 operators are not able to get into the 
 market and sell their coal ' under as 
 favorable conditions as they ever did. 
 
 MR. GRANT: — They said they have 
 a great deal of dirt there. We expect 
 to pay for our dirt independent of the 
 mining rate. That costs us 6% cents a 
 ton. The miners say it costs three 
 cents a ton but that is not correct. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The fact that you 
 pay for the dirt doee not remove the 
 burden from the miner entirely. The 
 fact that you have the dirt is a burden 
 in itself. You have had the dirt all 
 the time, and you have had a differen- 
 tial that has never been less than 12% 
 cents until now. 
 
 MR. GRANT:— We are paying for the 
 dirt according to agreement. At the 
 time there was a differential of 12% 
 cents in the coal we never paid anv- 
 thing for the dirt. We claim that is 
 too much for the dirt. We found out 
 last year that we were paying too 
 much. Instead of 12 cents or ten cents, 
 it costs us six cents. Mr. Mitchell 
 talks as though we can get into the 
 market. Fifty-cent coal is coming in 
 all around us within two miles from 
 town. We are two miles from town. 
 Over the P. & P. U. and the Terminal, 
 and from the south and all around it 
 is coming in. The Pekin operators can- 
 not hold their own markets. There 
 are retail coal dealers there knocking 
 us clear out. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You say you are 
 not doing anything. Mr. Rundle quoted 
 figures to show that you worked 200 
 days. That is as good- an average as 
 any mine in the state. ' 
 
 MR. GRANT:— That may be all 
 true. We work very few men. We 
 could not shut down simply because 
 this price was put on us. We are cry- 
 ing to keep the mine in running 
 shape expecting to get in the market. 
 Mr. Wilson said he thought If the 
 operators had not made anything they 
 would not operate their mines. There 
 are four of us here who have not made 
 a dollar in the past year. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: — How many 
 men are you employing now? 
 
 MR. GRANT:— About eighteen men. 
 As a rule we worked 35 men since we 
 opened the mine. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Did you work 
 full handed during the 200 days? 
 
 MR. GRANT:— We worked from ten 
 to eighteen men during the past year. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 6. 
 
 147 
 
 Previous to that we worked from 20 
 to 35. Our coal is all consumed In 
 Pekln. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— For domestic 
 use or steam? • 
 
 MR. GRANT:— Some for domestic 
 use and some for steam. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— How much do 
 you put out in a day? 
 
 MR. GRANT:— From 70 to 75 tons, 
 and about half of it is for steam. 
 
 MR. RUNDLE:— I would like to an- 
 swer Mr. Moorshead on the competitive 
 question. The mines at Pekin are In 
 the city. All of the coal that the mines 
 produce is consumed in Pekln with the 
 exception of the coal that goes on the 
 Big Four and the coal that goes on 
 the Big Four, it has been stated here, 
 had a price of freight of 7% cents on 
 the P. & P. U. I say that is ndt so. 
 There is 20 cents to 30 cents, I be- 
 lieve, but I can prove it is not less than 
 15 cents a ton. There are little towns 
 between Bloomington and Pekin which 
 consunae between four and five hundred 
 cars of coal a year. Any other coal 
 mine, except Mr. Hubbins', that sells 
 coal at those towns has to pay a 
 freight rate before the Big Four gets 
 It. There is no coal dug in Pekin and 
 consumed in Pekin but what is put 
 into the coalhouse or into the cellar, 
 or any other place, that costs more 
 than 37% cents a ton for hauling. 
 There is no coal that goes into Pekln 
 from Peoria that does not cost at least 
 fifty cents a ton to put It in there, and • 
 right there Is 12% cents of a differential. 
 There is coal coming into Pekin that Is 
 dug for fifty cents a ton, but it costs 
 75 cents a ton to ■ get it into Pekln. 
 There are team mines down there. We 
 have teams in Pekin that go there and 
 get the 56-cent coal, but they have to 
 haul it five or six miles.. There is no 
 coal that goes Into Pekin from other 
 places than fifty cents to get it there, 
 and those people put it there for 37% 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— I move that the 
 minin'g rate of Pekin be made 56 cents. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PICTON:— J^ would like to 
 amend that motion by making it read 
 62% cents. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— I think it would be 
 a good plan for the Pekin miners and 
 operators to get together and see if 
 they can fix up something to be re- 
 ported to this meeting. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 think we shonld vote 
 on the motion and amendment. 
 
 A vote was taken On Mr. Picton's 
 amendment, the operators voting No 
 and the miners voting Aye, and it 
 was declared lost. 
 
 Mr. Newsam's motion was voted on, 
 the operators voting Aye, the miners 
 No, and It was lost. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,:— I move that the 
 Pekin rate be continued at 60 cents 
 and a committee appointed to Investi- 
 gate" the competition and other condi- 
 tions with a view of determining 
 
 whether their rate should be 56 cents 
 or 62% cents, or somewhere between. 
 I will make the motion read that the 
 rate be 60 cents with a joint committee 
 appointed to investigate the conditions 
 similar to the arrangement under which 
 the 60-cent rate was made a year r.go. 
 It can ,be understood that the Pekin 
 operators and delegates will take this 
 arrangement into consideration and de- 
 termine by what method a readjust- 
 ment, if any, shall be arrived at. 
 
 (The foregoing was duly seconded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Why not take 
 some Peoria operator and miner and 
 for a third man take one of the state 
 board of arbitration? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Let Mr. Justi take it 
 up with the Pekin operators and Mr. 
 Russell will take it up with the miners 
 from that district. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That Is satis- 
 factory. ' 
 
 Upon motion the meeting adjourned 
 until 1:30 p. m. 
 
 SUB-SCALE CQMMITTEE. 
 
 March 6, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order 
 at 1:30 p. m. by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I now inove that 
 the No. 6 seam for Peoria and Pulton 
 counties be 56 Cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I move to amend the 
 motion: That the 6th seam Peoria and 
 Fulton counties be 60 cents per ton; 
 and Kewanee and Etherly 65 cents. 
 (Amendment seconded.) 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I rise for Information. 
 Kewanee and Etherly were voted upon 
 a few days ago., 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— They were voted 
 upon, but lost. At the time they were 
 voted upon they were coupled with 
 Norris; Kewanee, Etherly and Norris. 
 The motion was lost. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— If the operators so 
 wish, I am willing tO' separate Etherly 
 and Kewanee, provided you will act 
 on those two places first. They want 
 to separate them from the Peoria and 
 Fulton counties six seam, then take up 
 Peoria and Fulton counties afterward. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— How to separate 
 these two seams, for the present, with 
 the different conditions of mining, is 
 something that I do not understand. I 
 am perfectly willing to separate these 
 two seams at present, as I made my 
 motion, as they have been In the past. 
 At the same time, in my opinion, the 
 same scale should be given to sixth 
 seam, let it be wherever it may. I 
 wish these operators who are interested 
 in the sixth seam more than I am, and 
 better acquainted with the conditions, 
 would get up on this matter, before I 
 vote on the separation of it. I think 
 it's a duty that belongs to them. While' 
 I own some lof that sixth seam ooaJ, 
 I am not at present working that seam, 
 and I do not want to be in anybody's 
 way. 
 
148 
 
 AFTBttNOON Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 MR. LONG:— It is perfectly - satisfac- 
 tory to the operators to separate those 
 two seams, and take up Etherly s.nd 
 Kewanee separately. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I withdraw my 
 amendment for the present, if Mr. 
 Newsam^ will withdraw his motion. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, l 
 rnove that the price for Etherly and 
 Kewanee be fixed at 65 cents. (Second- 
 ed and adopted.) , 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 rate for the sixth seam at Norris be 
 placed at 60 cents per ton. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I move to amend 
 that the No. six seam in Pulton and 
 Peoria counties be 56 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— My reason for mov- 
 ing that the price be made for the sixth 
 seam at Norris only, is that the sixth 
 seam is being worked at present only 
 at Norris, and at Kewanee and Etherly. 
 I am perfectly willing to Include all 
 cases in my motion where the sixtli 
 seam Is being worked, but it seems to 
 me it i."! utterly impossible for this 
 meeting, at this time, to make a scale 
 for the unknown seam. We have at- 
 tempted that, in one instance, sinire 
 coming here, and the operators, as I 
 understand it, have repudiated the ar- 
 rangement we have made, and it sei=ms 
 to me if it will work In one imstaixoe, 
 it certainly should apply in the other. 
 At Norris, and I believe a little place 
 or two at Canton, they are working 
 this seam, and it has been worked in 
 'Other localities, and as I understand, 
 there is a vast amount of difference 
 between the work in the other locali- 
 ties and that that is being performed 
 today at Norris. We attempted to 
 make a scale of prices for an unknown 
 seam, or whatever you" desire, and wo 
 failed, from the fact that they do not 
 know what the seam is, what it will 
 develop into, or what figure it will 
 cut, and I believe that the same reason 
 should apply in this case. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — I am a little sur- 
 prised at Mr. Russell wanting tO' make 
 the scale for one mine in Peoria county, 
 stating at the same time that we do 
 not know the seam in other places. 
 There are many pla.ces in Peoria 
 county where the No. 5 seam has never 
 yet been opened up, yet we know the 
 coal is there. We also have No. 6 seam 
 at different places opened up. I my- 
 self have some No. 6 seam, with en- 
 tries, now. While I am not running it, 
 and I won't for years maybe, I might; 
 I cannot tell. At the same time, I be- 
 lieve It is nothing but honest and just 
 to give me the' same privilege as is 
 given to Norris, or any other place. 1 
 have noi objections to^ Norris getting 
 the 56-cent rate; Norris should have 
 no objections to my having the same 
 figures if I please to work the seam. 
 They are only a few miles away. 
 
 As for the seam Mr. Russell speaks 
 about — that we know nothing of it. It 
 is a well known fact, the seam is well 
 defined, entries have been driven into 
 
 It, and even the price agreed on ue- 
 tween the operator and the miners knd 
 the committee. I want to make the 
 statement here again, once for all, that 
 that seam is the No. 1 seam. I defy 
 any man in the state to take the other 
 side of that question. However, that is 
 not up here, but I have to answer Mr. 
 Russell on that point. I want to be 
 frank here, so we can come here again 
 in the next year and make scales, and 
 make them once for all if it's iiossiblfc. 
 I believe all of us are getting tired of 
 making the scale every year for this 
 mine and that mine. Now, Mr. Chair- ' 
 man, I would' like some of these other 
 operators to get up and speak, and see 
 whether there is any other mine except 
 the Norris mine, opened up and ready 
 to go to work in that seam. That's 
 all I ask. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— In asking for 
 56 cents for No. 6 in Peoria and Pulton 
 counties, we are asking the price that 
 was paid for the mining at that seam 
 two years ago. They have worked It 
 at Norris, and the miners made no ob- 
 jection to the price, nor did they ask 
 our district to consider the deficiency 
 conditions. It wasn't thought a matter 
 of importance, that that seam should 
 be specified in our state agreement, sO' 
 much as it is today. They have just 
 one mine, and that received the same 
 rate on No. 6 as No. 5, and on that 
 account was probably overlooked in 
 being included in our scale arrange- 
 ments. It was receiving the same price 
 that No. 5 was paying two years ago, 
 and we are asking today the price 
 that Was paid then. Mr. Long, at 
 Norris, operated No. 6 till about June 
 or July of that year, from April until 
 July, I think, he operated No. 6, and 
 went down to No. 5 with the same min- 
 ers. Now, he has looked over his pay 
 rolls, and I think he is prepared to 
 show that his miners, while they were 
 working the No. 6, earned better wages 
 than they earned in No. 5 at the same 
 price. 
 
 In regard to the conditions. It Is 
 more- expensive from the operators' 
 point of view, there being more dirt 
 in it, and on that account greater ex- 
 pense. The roof is variable, and it re- 
 quires more expense in taking care of 
 the air courses, etc., but there Is a 
 scale fixed for the 'dirt, and a very 
 liberal scale. In October I had two 
 miners leave my place. One had earn- 
 ed $83.02. The tother one, his wages 
 were $68.23. Those two miners left my 
 mine went down to Norris to work. Mr, 
 Long has some figures that show that 
 while he was working No. 6 in April 
 of 1900, the average day's wages for 
 several men were $3.43. The average 
 wages that they got in January, 1902, 
 in No. 5, are $2.43. He made a com- 
 parison with January of this year and' 
 April of 1900. 
 
 Mr. Spencer also can show you 4rom 
 his experience that he has had with 
 No. B and 6, where the coal is com- 
 
Afternoon Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 149 
 
 Ing from th« same shafts, the average 
 earnings of several men in No. 5 wer<- 
 43.00% per day, while those in No. 6 
 are $3.58%. Now, he has these flguras, 
 and can show you the men's names and 
 the amount' of work don.e. On this 
 ground we think we should receive 56 
 <!ents for No. 6 as it was worked be- 
 fore. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Tou say two 
 men left your min« and one earned 
 :$83 and the other $62? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Sixty-eight. I 
 may say that was the gross earnings. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Was that for 
 .a month, or two weeks? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— That was for 
 a month. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— What is the 
 •difCerence between the thickness of 
 the two seams, No. 5 and 6? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— No. 6 is prob- 
 ably on an average eight inches thicker 
 than No. 5. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— What is the 
 ■difCerence between the quality of the 
 two coals? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— The quality of 
 No. 6, — it's softer ooal than No. 5. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Is it better 
 •coal? 
 
 JIR. WHITEHEAD:- So far as be- 
 ing better, it does not fetch any bet- 
 ter price, or didn't when we were min- 
 ing it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Did both coals 
 s6 into the same market in compett- 
 tion with each other, for steam as well 
 as domestic use? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— It was a steam 
 «oaJ, rather than domestic. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Did they come 
 into competition with each other at 
 the same price? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— W^hen I sold 
 No. 6, it went into the same ma.rkef 
 with No. 5, and it did not bring us any 
 "better price. I haven't sold No. 6 dur- 
 ing the last three years. I was refus- 
 ed a scale last year, and while I was 
 prepared to open it up, I wanted a scale 
 to do so, and in consequence haven't 
 worked it this year; but Mr. Spencer 
 "has, and he is workinfr both seams', 
 and is selling both coals, at that time, 
 and could probably answer that ques- 
 tion better than I could. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— What I want- 
 ed to draw out, if possible, was that 
 from a competitive standpoint, they 
 "both went into the same market, and 
 there was no marked difference in the 
 ■quality of the two coals, and so far as 
 the thickness is concerned, and as Mr. 
 Whitehead says, the No. 6 seam Is 
 thicker than the No. 5. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— It is a fact that the 
 ■No.. 6 seam is one or two inches high- 
 er thai) the No. 5 seam is.. It is also 
 a fact that the No. 6 seam is a far bet- 
 ter .juality of coal than is the No. 5 
 seam. It has been acknowledged by 
 the operators that have worked both 
 those seams, that they can sell that 
 ■coal on the market when they cannot 
 
 sell the No. 5 seam. I do not think 
 that either one of these operators who 
 have worked this seam will deny this 
 statement. They have repeatedly 
 said that in the slack work, in any 
 portion of the coal, they oould sell 
 this ooal when they could not get in 
 the market with the No. 5 seam. And 
 as far as the coal is concerned, the 
 vein being higher, when you come to 
 figure out the dirt th<it is in the No. 6 
 coal as against the No. 5, you will find 
 that it is a lower seam of clean coal 
 than the No. 5. At first in the No. 6 
 
 ■ we have what is known as the mud 
 band. That runs from 2 to 6 incites 
 thick, next to the roof. Then there is 
 what is known as a sulphur band, that 
 runs from a quarter to a half inch in 
 thickness. Then we -have what is 
 known as a blue band, and that runs 
 from 2 to 4 inches thick. Below the 
 blue band we have another sulphur 
 band, from one-fourth to one-half inch 
 thick. T-hen on the bottom of that 
 coal we have what is known as black- 
 jack, which runs from 2 to 4 inches 
 thick. Figure that out and see where 
 your five-foot seam is. I want to 
 state that these statements I do not 
 think can be disputed. Now, then, 
 from a competitive standpoint. Mr. 
 Newsam stated a few moments ago 
 that this Was the sixth seam and it 
 ought to be the same price all around. 
 I think so myself. The Etherly Coal 
 Co., to get into the same markets as 
 the Peoria and Fulton counties, on that 
 same coal, must pay to the Galesburg 
 & Great Eastern R. R. Co., 20 cents per 
 ton, to get on the Q. system, while, they 
 are already on that line — Norris is al- 
 ready on the Q. Then the Etherlv 
 Coal Co. is paying 5 cents more per ton 
 than we are asking these gentlemen to 
 pay. That makes it a great deal eas- 
 ier for the Norris Coal Co.' to get into 
 market with the same grade of coal, as 
 against the Etherly. I think, Mr. 
 Chairman, that is all at present. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Picton if it isn't a fact that the system 
 
 ■ (if mining at Kewanee and Etherly Is 
 entirely different from the system of 
 mining proposed in the 6th seam in 
 Peoria and Fulton counties? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— In answer to the 
 gentleman's question, I will say yes. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— They undercut the coal 
 at Kewanee and Etherly, do they not, 
 and shoot it out of the solid, in the 6th 
 vein in Peoria and Pulton counties? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— They mine it on the 
 bench at Etherly and Kewanee. 
 
 MR. "WHITEHEAD:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Picton if he will give me the 
 items of the different thickneisses he 
 has found in that seam. I am very 
 much interested to know how they ag- 
 gregate. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Here it is, you are 
 welcome to it. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— "We have had this 
 6th seam up in this district for two 
 
150 
 
 Afternoon SESsioii, March 6. 
 
 years, and the evidence given by those 
 who have worked in the seam is all 
 that we have for evidence on the min- 
 ers' side, while the operators from Nor- 
 ris and also from Farmington, have 
 made their argument that they shot it 
 off the Solid. The men concede that they 
 do shoot it off the solid, but 
 they have to mine it after- 
 ward, after it is shot. Now, I 
 take the position that if they have got 
 to shoot it and also mine it afterward, 
 before they can get It down, then 
 it ought to be on the same price as 
 Btherly, 65 cents. That's the argu- 
 ment foi- two solid years, the operators 
 and niiners. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Before we as- 
 sembled here I met an Btherly miner, 
 who I believe is a delegate, and he 
 made the statement to me that at 
 Btherly, the average for the men was 
 two tons and a quarter a day. That's 
 the statement he made to me. Now, 
 I am not prepared to say, I'm not min- 
 ing that seam at present, but it is my 
 opinion that it would be a fair state- 
 ment to sav that the average would 
 be 8 tons, in our district, for a miner, 
 in that seam. I'm prepared to stand 
 by any statement that I make. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,: — I desire to make a 
 statement to the committee, who pos- 
 sibly are not aware of some of the pro- 
 ceedings in regard to this sixth seam, 
 and that is, that we have offered to the 
 operators who are now operating in the 
 sixth seam, in Peoria and Fulton 
 counties, the same prices and the same 
 conditions that the operators at Bth- 
 erly and Kewanee enjoy. We have of- 
 fered to make them a 65-cent rate, car- 
 rying with it the conditions, viz: That 
 the ooal should be undercut and sheai-- 
 ed as it is at Btherly and KeT^anee, 
 At one time in one of our meetings, 
 one of the operators, at least, asked 
 for these conditions, and when we gave 
 them to them, then they refused to ac- 
 cept them. Btherly and Kewanee 
 mine and shear the coal, while they 
 shoot the coal at Norrls, and we con- 
 sider that the ooal is that much more 
 expensive to the miner at Norris than 
 it is at Btherly and Kewanee. From all 
 reports, the seam of coal is better at 
 Kewanee and Btherly than it is at 
 Norris, or those places that they are 
 now working the sixth seam. 
 
 MR. LONG:— I believe it was me 
 that made the proposition to accept 
 Btherly and Kewanee conditions, but it 
 was with the understanding that they 
 would furnish the men to do the min- 
 ing. That they refused to do. We 
 take the chances. But it developed 
 later, that it would be impossible to 
 undermine the coal, — I think Mr. Pic- 
 ton's statement would bear us out in 
 that, — from the fact that the blue band 
 and the rock he speaks of, in the bot- 
 tom, would make it out of the question 
 to mine it, and so far as having to 
 mine the coal after its being: shot is 
 concerned, we do that in No. 5. At 
 
 my place we do not get one shot in a 
 dozen. That wouldn't be the case if 
 the miners would put in their shots as 
 I would dictate to them, that would 
 be a workmanlike manner. Mr. White- 
 head got the average, I think, a little 
 too high on No. 6. I have got the 
 statements of the miners here, sever- 
 al of them, who worked in No. 6 dur- 
 ing the month of April, the first of the 
 scale year, two years ago, and they 
 will average up, I think, something 
 like six tons and a half to a man, and 
 an average in No. 5 would go over 
 four and a half. For the life of me I 
 can't tell why we should have any dif- 
 ference in the scale. For my part, 
 what No. 6 was put on the market. I 
 put on the market in competition with 
 No. 5, and I do not see any other show 
 for Mr. Spencer. I am not mining it 
 at the present time, but I'm contending 
 for a scale, with a view to mining. I 
 want a scale whereby I can mine the 
 coal. I am not contending for a scale 
 for Norris, and do not want one with- 
 out we can get one for the Eighth dis- 
 trict. As Mr. Newsam said, the rest 
 of the operators have the coal, and it 
 should be scaled so it would be favor- 
 able to. mining It. 
 
 In reply to Mr. Picton, in regard to 
 the mud, I do not know of any mud 
 seam on top of the coal. It's true we 
 do have a mud seam in the center of 
 it, but on the top, I do not know of 
 anything but what we term "white 
 top," for which we have a scale. A 
 statement that I have got here will 
 show you the average is something 
 like $1.45 a day in favor of No. 
 6. I leave the statements here 
 for the committee Ito look over 
 There's both the No. 5 and the No. 6. 
 it shows there the scale that we paid, 
 and the men's earnings. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I desire again .to 
 say that Mr. Long, In making his 
 statement, says that a provision was 
 attached to his proposition, that we 
 should furnish the miners. I wish to 
 say again, that proposition was not at- 
 tached to Mr. Long's request. We met 
 here in this National Hotel. There had 
 been a committee appointed from a 
 joint meeting held In this sub-district, 
 to work in conjunction with Mr. Justi 
 and myself, for the purpose of making 
 a scale for this sixth seam. Upon this 
 day that full committee, I believe were 
 present, and when Mr. Long made the 
 proposition that they would accept the 
 Btherly and Kewanee price if we would 
 give them the Btherly and Kewanee 
 conditions, I called that committee out 
 into the corridor here, and had hard 
 work to persuade them, but did finally 
 persuade them to accept Mr. Long's 
 proposition. We went back Into the 
 room and accepted the proposition, 
 and then the operators hitched onto 
 that proposition, this proposition that 
 Mr. Long now speaks of, asking that 
 we furnish the men. which they knew 
 
Aftbrnoon Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 151 
 
 was an impossibility. Then Mr. Long 
 said that he was speaking for himself 
 and not for the operators. I thought 
 at the time the proposition was madg. 
 to us, that Mr. Long was one of the 
 committee; that the operators under- 
 stood themselves, and were making t]?e 
 proposition In good faith. 
 
 MR. LONG:— He said it would be out 
 of the question for them to furnish the 
 miners to do the work. If it is out of 
 the question; what would be the use of 
 our considering such a proposition 
 now? I am satisfied it's out of the 
 question to get the miners to mine it. 
 If so, what Is the use of considering 
 the proposition? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I do not understand 
 there is any proposition before this 
 committee to furnish the miners. 
 
 MR. LONG:— He says It's Impossible 
 to get them. If we had accepted a 
 scale for the mining, we would not be 
 at liberty to change the method of min- 
 ing now. "We are Entitled to a scale 
 on the solid, and that's all we are ask- 
 ing.. So far as Etherly is concerned, 
 somebody said something about us 
 having the advantage over Etherly in 
 the rates, which I very much doubt. I 
 do not know, however, what their 
 rates are, but if that should ibe the 
 case, taking ours on the solid, we would 
 not realize to exceed 45 per cent of 
 lump coal. Etherly Is now getting not 
 less than 75 to 80 per cent of lump coal. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Again I wish to 
 deny the assertion that Mr. Long has 
 made. He says I said It would be Im- 
 possible to get the men. I want to 
 deny the assertion ajid say that I did' 
 not sa,y any such thing. The operators 
 said it, and not me or any one of the 
 miners represented. 
 
 MR. LONG:— I misunderstood Mr. 
 Russell then. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— It seems to me, from 
 what has already been said upon this 
 subject, whether anybody says they 
 cannot get miners enough, It Is very 
 evident that such Is the fact, and it 
 is useless to provide a scale for a seam 
 of coal, that Is prohibitive to mining 
 that particular seam. It Is also true 
 this coal has been worked In the past, 
 and that all past precedents go to 
 show that the mining rate has not been 
 more in No. 6 than it has been In No. 
 5 since the mine-run system has been 
 in effect. 
 
 One suggestion, that has not been 
 spoken on, to amount to anything, and 
 in which I am Interested, is the com- 
 petitive part of it. I have sold con- 
 siderable of the No. 5, as well as the 
 No. 6. It goes Into the same markets, 
 and as the two coals come out of the 
 same hole In the ground they must 
 necessary take the same freight rate. 
 During all mj' experience with these 
 coals, I have found that the price of the 
 two. If anything, ranges In favor o;f 
 the No. 5, when we consider the price 
 of the screenings. The screenings 
 from No. 6 contain much more dirt 
 
 than from No. 5, and will not, unless 
 there is a scarcity In the market, bring 
 as much as the average price of the 
 No. 5 screenings. Now, If this ques- 
 tion could be settled upon Its merits, I 
 think we would have little trouble in 
 getting to a scale, and a scale that will 
 •allow us to mine this vein of coal, 
 which we have bought with the expec- 
 tation of putting on the market. If 
 the miners will allow their evidence to 
 consist of the facts that have been 
 brought from their own men, who have 
 worked In these seams, and the prices 
 that the coal has sold for in the past, 
 it looks like that Is what we ought to 
 settle the question upon, and not upon 
 the question as to what Etherly pays, 
 with another kind of mining altogether 
 when it has been clearly brought out 
 that this seam down here cannot be 
 worked .successfully under that sys-i 
 tem. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Mr. Osborn, I believe 
 you said in your statement that there 
 was more dirt In screenings from No, 
 6 seam than from No. S. 
 MR. OSBORN:— That's true. 
 MR. RYAN: — How do you account for 
 that? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— The dirt In the No. 
 seam is of a soft character and goes 
 into the screenings. It seems that it 
 cannot be kept out of the screenings, 
 like No. 5. As to why it goes there, 
 these men, the operators, who are fam- 
 iliar with the mining of this coal, are 
 more familiar than I am, and can give 
 you the reason for it. I am telling 
 you It is there, and therefore the 
 screenings do not average up In price 
 with the screenings from No. 5 seam. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Doesn't that carry out 
 Mr. Picton's Ideas, that there are more 
 dirt bands in the No. 6 than In No. 5? 
 MR. OSBORN:— I do not think It has 
 been denied but there is more dirt in 
 No. 6 than No. 5, but the miner, never- 
 theless, makes more in No. 6 at the 
 same price, than he does in No. 5. You 
 have the evidence before you. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— We surely must dis- 
 pute the statement, for I dd not think 
 it Is correct that the miner make^ 
 more in No. 6 seam than he does In 
 No. 5. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — More money or more 
 dirt? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— He makes more dirt, 
 I'm well aware of that. More money, 
 he Is talking about. Now, In regard 
 to the system of working the same 
 seam at Kewanee and Etherly, and at 
 Norrls, I want to say rlghp here, there 
 is just as much hard work attached to 
 working In the Norrls seam, as there 
 is In the Etherly and Kewanee. While 
 at Etherly and Kewanee they can cut 
 It and shear It on each rib, and wedge 
 it down, they get clean coal, while at 
 Norrls they shear It in the center, they 
 shoot a low hole below the clay seam, 
 or the blue band, which takes all the 
 way from three to three feet six Inch- 
 
152 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION, MARCH 6. 
 
 es of powder to fetch It out, then they 
 have to go to work and drill another 
 hole over the top of that blue band, 
 which takes all the way from one foot 
 of powder, to two. Taking Into con- 
 sideration the expense, the labor of 
 throwing back the dirt, I would prefer 
 the Etherly and Kewanee work to the 
 Non-is work, with the 5 cents differen- 
 tial, and there isn't an operator in the 
 room, I do not think, who can dispute 
 the statement that I have made re- 
 garding the work of the two different 
 places, in the same seam. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— I just want to ask 
 one question. Mr. Picton arose to dis- 
 pute or controvert something I had 
 said, and in his talk I didn't get any- 
 thing that controverted vhat I said 
 in my talk. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I stated I thought we 
 could prove, and I am ready to prove, 
 If the gentleman will fetch his figures 
 up, as he made the assertion that the 
 men in the 6th seam made more money 
 than they did in the 5th, then I want 
 to tell him I will fetch figures to show 
 him he is incorrect. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask 
 both parties to the controversy what 
 effect it would have in making a scale, 
 as long as the scale is not based on 
 the earning capacity. It seems to me 
 It is simply losing time. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— I agree with 
 What the chairman says. He simply 
 contradicts our statement, and wishes 
 to bring figures to support it. Mr. 
 Picton in his statement about the quan- 
 tity ot dirt in that seam, made the 
 maximum 15 inches, and the minimum 
 about seven and a half. I think his 
 reference was to the dirt that runs 
 regularly with the seam, when he 
 made his statement as to the different 
 fignires. I have never seen even the 
 minimum. We have four inches of 
 a mud seam. It runs regular, varies 
 probably an inch, and the other dirt 
 don't run regular, that he has men- 
 tioned. And there's white top In 
 addition to this dirt, and there is a 
 scale lirovided for the white top, how- 
 ever. When we pay 56 cents, the same 
 price we pay for No. 5, we are still 
 handicapped with having to pay for 
 niore dirt in the No. 6 than we do in 
 No. 5. Wfc gex a larger percentage of 
 fine coal from the method of mingling 
 coal, and it costs us more, while at 
 the same time we can show you the 
 earning capacity of the miner is great- 
 er in No. 6 than in No. 5, and those 
 miners who are accustomed to that 
 seam will favor 6 to 5 every time they 
 can get a job in it. 
 
 In regard to the Etherly conditions 
 as compared with the method of mining 
 in our field, v/e are prepared to accept 
 the miners' proposition, providing they 
 will give Us the double standard, and 
 we leave the miners to be the judge 
 of whether he will mine and shear and 
 wedge his coal at 65 cents, and use no 
 powder, or use powder and the ordin- 
 
 ary methods that are established there, 
 at 56 cents. If you will give us the 
 double standard we will make the 
 scale and accept the proposition. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It seems to me that 
 is an eminently fair proposition, and 
 is the way out of this matter if we 
 can get it settled, atid get it out of 
 the way. We would like to get some- 
 thing else on tap. It has ceased to be 
 interesting, and we would -ike to have 
 It settled, and It seems to me that the 
 fairness of that proposition Is so self 
 evident there is no question about It, 
 but what it Is fair. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That's one of ycur 
 jokes, isn't it, Mr. LukensY 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— No. 
 
 MR. PICTON: — Mr. Lukens says It's 
 a fair proposition. They are willing 
 to take the Etherly price of 65 cents, 
 and pay the differential in, or allow 
 for double standard and mine coal the 
 same as Etherly. They do not ask 
 much. It seems as though they WKJuld 
 give quite a bit more than that if they 
 could get the double standard. I would 
 like to ask Mr. Whitehead a question, 
 in regard to the earning power of the 
 miner. How does the earning capacity 
 of a man compare. In your No. 5 seam, 
 that you have been working in, com- 
 pare with your No. 6 seam? Or your 
 No. 6 seam with your No. 5? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD: — I haven't 
 worked the No. 6 seam during the last 
 two vears and a half, and I haven't 
 any data from which I can answer that 
 question. 
 
 MR. PICTON: — I want to state that 
 Mr. Whitehead, I think, has memory 
 enough to remember when he did work 
 it and when I worked in that seam 
 for him, to help open It out, and I 
 think he will remember at that time 
 there were no prices for dirt, and 
 he paid us (there were three of us 
 working together) a bigger price for 
 the dirt we got out of that seam, in 
 prospecting to see if he could hit coal, 
 than what the coal come to, and I 
 have the statement at home yet today 
 from his company to show this Is the 
 fact. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— May I ask a 
 question. When was It you worked 
 that seam for me? What year? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— It's been quite a bit 
 ago now. It's been about eleven 
 years ago. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think the committee 
 will not Indulge In any more ancient 
 history. We had enough of that this 
 forenoon. It doesn't cut any figure 
 now under what conditions Mr. Pic- 
 ton worked eleven years ago. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It seems to me. 
 looking at this matter from a competi- 
 tive standpoint, that Etherly, at least, 
 does cut some figure in the case. Eth- 
 erly is w^orking the sixth seam. They 
 are shipping coal in competition with 
 the people of Norrls, who are also op- 
 erating the sixth seam. At Etherlv 
 
Afternoon Session, March 6. 
 
 153 
 
 they are compelled, as has been stated 
 here before and as proven last spring, 
 tQ the commission who adjusted the 
 price at Etherly, to pay 20 cents per 
 ton upon this spur road before their 
 coal reaches the Q. system, and the 
 Norris mine is located upon the Q. sys- 
 tem. Now, it seems to me that anv 
 reduction below the 60-cent rate asked 
 for by the miners, will simply be tak- 
 ing from the wages, or lowering- the 
 earning power of the men in order that 
 they may make one vein competitive 
 with the other. I do not believe any 
 operator should come here and ask 
 that the miner should stand so grreat 
 a reduction as that, that will make an 
 inferior vein competitive with a super- 
 ior vein, and that is the whole auestion 
 involved in this matter. There is no 
 question about it, Etherly and Kewa- 
 nee, these places that are operating tjie 
 sixth seam, are paying 65 cents per 
 ton, and they pay a 20-cent freight 
 rate in excess of what the people at 
 Non-is ,are expected to pay. It seems 
 to me those people who wish to operate 
 the sixth seam, even taking the whole 
 sixth seam into consideration, can op- 
 en their mines and operate, if Etherly 
 can do it under existing- conditions. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Etherly pays 
 20 cents to get the coal brought to 
 "Wautaugo, which is about ten miles 
 from Galesburg-, and that has been a 
 competing point between the coal 
 from Mr. Spencer's mine and Etherly. 
 Mr. Spencer's mine I think is 65 cents 
 to Galesburg, while I am not prepared 
 to say what they have got. I think 
 Etherly has fully as good a rate as he 
 has. 
 
 In regard to the earning capacity of 
 the miner, our method of mining in- 
 creases his earning capacity. If they 
 can only mine two tons and a quarter, 
 as their delegate stated tome this af- 
 ternoon, at Etherly, I can assure you 
 our miners can mine three times thati 
 amount in a day. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— I do not know any- 
 think about Kewanee and Etherly as 
 to the rates these pay, in the market 
 where I sell. ITiey do not get any coal 
 in there. I will assure you of that. So 
 it seems to me they are out of our 
 ■class entirely, and it is wrong to keep 
 comparing them with us in a competi- 
 tive way. I hold in my hand here the 
 tariff issued bv the C. B. & Q. They 
 group mines that they consider should 
 go for the same business, upon the 
 same rates. Here are almost all the 
 mines in this district that mine No. 5, 
 together with the mines that mine No. 
 6. "We are pla,ced on the same com- 
 petitive basis with No. 5. I have 
 handled this Norris sixth vein coal into 
 onr markets at the same time I was 
 handling No. 5 from this district, as to 
 Kewanee and Etherly, where the|r 
 markets ate I do not pretend to sav. 
 But I do say, and I am positive about 
 it, that what we have to compete with 
 
 is No. 5 vein, and it seems we should 
 be plaped upon a competitive basis 
 with the coal that we must meet, not 
 with some theory that we might work 
 out here to show somebody else was 
 paying more per ton. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Osborn a question. How much of 
 the coal produced at your Norris mine 
 do you sell in the market? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— Norris is not work- 
 ing in the sixth now. The fact of the 
 matter is, there is no No. 6 coming out 
 of that district at the present time. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Either five or six. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— What per cent of one 
 mine? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to know 
 what per cent of the coal produced by 
 the Norris mine, do you sell in the 
 market? Any market, I don't care 
 what market? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— At the time I fepeak 
 of hei-e when they were running the 
 sixth vein, is what you refer to Is It? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am referring to 
 either vein, at the present time, or any 
 number. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:-At the present time 
 T am handling some from this Peoria 
 district of No. 5. I have handled No. 
 6 in some cases, if there was any No. 
 6 being mined, but No. 6 is at a stand- 
 still because there is no scale. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Mr. Russell asked, if 
 I understood him, what per cent of the 
 coal mined at Norris, do you sell in the 
 market now? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— At the present time 
 I am not handling any of this — what 
 the trouble is here, I do not want vou 
 to get the two veins mixed. We were 
 discussing the Norris scale, and Norris 
 at present is mining No. 5. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't care where 
 you take it. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— i just want you not 
 to get it confused here. I have hand- 
 led and I am handling now No. 5 veins 
 from various mines in this district.* I 
 have handled considerable quantity of 
 it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Isn't it a fact you 
 consume your own coal from this plant? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— No, sir. 
 
 MR, RUSSELL:— Isn't it a fact it 
 is used in the potteries there, the peo- 
 ple who own the potteries control the 
 mine? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— No. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Mr. Osborn is 
 connected with the Farmington Coal 
 Co. and he resides at Quincy. His 
 business is at Quincy. He is not con- 
 nected with the Norris mine, at Nor- 
 ris. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I wish to say that 
 I was laboring under the supposition 
 that Mr. Osborn was a member of the 
 company now operating the new mine 
 at Norris and which is the mine in 
 question. I am not asking in regard 
 to the Parmington mines or any oth- 
 
154 
 
 APTERNOON Session, March 6. 
 
 ei: It's the new mine at Norris that 
 is in question here now ui.uer the mo- / 
 tion. 
 
 MR. SPENCER:— We have opened 
 the mine Mr. Russell speaks of, and 
 are working No. 5 and 6 vein,— propose 
 to work No. 6. The question of tltf 
 rates, between our place and Kewanee 
 and Etberly, have been taken up, and 
 I do not see but what we are paying 
 just as much or more than either of 
 those places. As to the method of 
 mining there we are satisfied that could 
 not be used down at our place. I have 
 been there to see it, and I am satis- 
 fied we could not, and our 'men are 
 .satisfied. Now, as to the competitive 
 n arket for our coal, we have to sell, 
 Hnd do expect to sell, our coal from 
 No. 6, in the same market as we are 
 No. 5. It will have to take the sanne 
 market, and we never have expected, 
 in years past, to get any more for It 
 tl.'an we did for No. 5. As a matter of 
 fact, in the Peoria district, will set the 
 price, and while in some places there 
 might be some preference for it, at the 
 Fame time the cheaper coal would set 
 the price. 
 
 The matter of dirt seams, as Mr. Plc- 
 ton spoke of, there is a blue band that 
 runs from two to four inches, generally 
 about two inches, about IS inches from 
 the bottom. The balance, with the 
 exception of the sulphur, w^hich we 
 fintl in all coals, I have failed to find 
 anything as Mr. Picton describes. It 
 is a very clear seam, except where we 
 have white top or roll or slips, as may 
 be, which are provided for in the regu- 
 lar scale. So I do not see why there 
 should be a price made that would be 
 higher than No. 5. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— To make clear my 
 position, as you got mixed on it, I am 
 interested in the Farmington Coal Co., 
 at Farmington, with Mr. "Whitehead, 
 .and I am also a jobber in coal at Quin- 
 cy. That's why I clalni co be In a 
 pc.'-ition to know somethinsr of the 
 competitive side of this argument. I 
 have sold both coals at the same time, 
 In the same markets, and I hope to do 
 so again in future, if we are allowed 
 a scale that will let us do so. That's 
 all we are asking. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do you have 
 screenings coming from. No. 5, as well 
 as No. 6 screenings? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— Tes. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Is there any 
 difference in the grade of the two? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— Tes, the grade was 
 lower on Nc 6 on account of dirt that 
 goes into the coal. And by the way, 
 Mv. Ryan confused me a little, asking 
 me where the dirt came from. Wh,ere- 
 ever it came from, it was evidently 
 paid for at coal price, as it was in the 
 coal. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Do you get 
 less money, as a rule, for the screen- 
 ings coming from No. 6 seam, than 
 you dp for screenings coming from No. 
 B? 
 
 Mil. OSBORN:— Yes. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Always? 
 
 MR OSBORN:- Unless there Is a 
 scarcity of screenings In the market, 
 aad they are not particular as to qual- 
 ity. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— It's only in 
 case there's a scarcity of screenings? 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— It's only in excep- 
 tional cases, yes. 
 
 I.'.R. LUKENS:— In regard to the 
 double standard, I hope you do not 
 thinlt I meant screenea coal or mine- 
 run when I spoke about double stand- 
 a»'d. Tour remarks would Indicate 
 that you thought that was the case, 
 but from what you say now, I judge 
 net. but I cannot see anything the mat- 
 ter with that proposition of the oper- 
 aU.rs. They offer to accept the min- 
 er;;' proposition of thi» Kewanee and 
 Etherly rate there, or the 56-cent rate, 
 and let the miner have the option as 
 to which they will do, mine it, wedge 
 it and shear it, or shoot it off the solid. 
 It seems to me the matter Is entirely 
 in the hands of the miner, and he can- 
 not possibly be hurt. So far as I am 
 concerned, I can see no objection to it, 
 fron the miner's standpoint, and I 
 would like to see this thing settled 
 some way. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The trouble is you are 
 not a miner. 
 
 MR. PICTON: — There is one state- 
 ment Mr. Osborn made I would like to 
 have correct. He stated they had in 
 lafe years mined the sixth seam at the 
 same price as the fifth. I want to 
 state that while in part that is true, 
 there is a part of the time in the last 
 year that they have had a differential, 
 and are at the present time enjoying a 
 difl'erenlial. There never was a scale 
 n:ade for the sixth seam, to my know- 
 ledge, in this district. At the time 
 tliat Mr. Spencer first opened up that 
 Norris mine, they were enjoying a dif- 
 ferential. I have known them to have 
 on a screen coal basis ^s hieh as 15 
 cents of differential. 
 
 MR. OSBORN:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 would like to call the gentlemen to 
 order. Tou have asked us not to ?o 
 bick into ancient history. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 want to slate that the scale I am talk- 
 iiifT at out, that they are enjoyinif a 
 d:f!ritntial, is today, not in ancient 
 history si all. 
 
 M,":. OSBORN:- Of fifteen cents? 
 
 MR. PJCTON:— No, not today. I say 
 they have enjoyed that ailTerentlal. 
 
 MK WHITEHEAD:- 1 remember 
 from the time the mine was first open- 
 ed and I never knew them to have 
 either 15-cent or 10-cent difEerential,_ In 
 the whole history of their mine. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Did you ever know 
 them to have any? 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Tes, but not 
 either a 15-cent nor a 10-cent. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Osborn is t{ie 
 only man in the bunch who has a^>t 
 
 I 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 6. 
 
 155 
 
 down to the meat in the cocoanut of 
 this proposition. It is evident from 
 what all of you say, that a man could 
 make good wages in both of these 
 seams. That being the ease, the only 
 thing that should be considered here 
 is competitive opportunities. Now, no 
 one has attempted to answer Mr. Os- 
 born on that proposition, and it seems 
 to me it is up to the miners to do it. 
 If there is any good reason why tfee 
 No. 6 vein should have a differential 
 over the No. 5, it Is time for them to 
 produce it. If they cannot do it, it is 
 evident to any man that the rates 
 should be the same for both veins, and 
 I think if they get right a^vvn to busi- 
 ness and produce their evidence along 
 tbat line, this thing can be settled. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I know exceedingly lit- 
 tle about mining conditions in the 
 Eighth district, but the statements 
 have not been questioned, so far as I 
 have observed, that there is a larger 
 percentage of slack in the No. 6 seam; 
 that the slack sells for less per ton, and 
 that the lump coal does not command 
 a premium in price. Now, ifthe abil- 
 ity of the miner to earn reasonable 
 wages in both seams is not in dispute, 
 it seems to me those three statements, 
 or one or two of them, need to be dis- 
 proved, or else the operators have es- 
 tablished their contention that the min- 
 ing price should be the same. 
 
 MR. ■WILSON:— I would Only like 
 to make a few remarks. It came to 
 my notice within the last 56 hours. Of 
 course, we have got considerable op- 
 position on the other side of the house, 
 to the claim that 56 cents is equivalent 
 to the No. 5 vein. I found out, as far 
 as the miners employed in those mines 
 are concerned, that it is not a satis- 
 factoiy basis, and it's upon me as a 
 representative, to see that it should be 
 above 56. I understood, at the present 
 rate that they were working, or the 
 conditions they were working on when 
 they figured it up, the basis of No. 5 
 and No. 6, for a perioa of some days* 
 or near to a month, that the No. 6 
 vein, while they had cut seven yards 
 more than in the No. 5 vein, they had 
 75 cents less than what was produced 
 in No. 5. That shows conclusively that 
 there is certainly a discrimination 
 somewhere. Now, on the other side 
 of the house, they have been talking 
 about equalization of the prices that 
 prevail in the various etratas of the 
 state, let it come from No. 1 right up 
 to the highest. I would say that there 
 is certainly some discrimination. I 
 have got to say that is so, as far as 
 No. 5 vein is concerned, even in loXir 
 own locality. Not later than this 
 morning, I wish to say to the operators 
 right here, that my attention was 
 drawn to the fact that there were 
 eight cars of coal that cottie from Mt. 
 Pulaski, on a 66-cent basis, while we 
 are receiving 56 in the very same vein 
 here, shipped right past, which I did 
 not mention when the Pekin contro- 
 
 versy came up,— shipped right -past Pe- 
 kin and into Peoria. I am not advis- 
 ed where the destination was. Now 
 if the Kewanee and Etherly vein was 
 worked on a 65-cent basis, the same 
 strata, I don't see why it shouldn't pre- 
 vail in the Norris field. Let me tell 
 you, or anyone who has ever produced 
 coal, that I would sooner produce coal 
 by the pick, clean coal, than to break 
 my back by holding slack, mud band 
 blue band and every conceivable band 
 that is in the No. 6 vein. 
 
 MR^ WHITEHEAD:— M^y I ask Mr, 
 Wilson a (Jtiestion. The miner that 
 you referred to his earnings just now, 
 was he working for the Monmouth 
 Coal Co. ? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I'm alluding to the 
 ■person that referred the matter to me. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— May I ask if 
 his name is on this list? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I would wish to 
 state to you that I am not conversant 
 with the names of the party who men- 
 tioned the fact to me. 
 ■ MR. WHITEHEAD:— I do not want 
 to quibble with details unless I can 
 controvert his facts. He made a 
 statement that a miner was earnins 
 more in No. 5 than he was in No. 6. 
 
 (The secretary read the motion and 
 amendment, as follows: Moved by Mr. 
 Russell that the mining i, rice for the 
 No. 6 seam at ]M orris i be placed at 60 
 cents per ton. Mr. Newsam moved to 
 amend, that price for the No. 6 seam 
 in Fulton and Peoria counties be fixed 
 at 56 cents). 
 
 (On the amendment, the operators 
 voted Aye, the miners voted No. and it 
 was lost. On the original motion, the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Aye, and it was lost). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that a 
 committee of four be selected, consist- 
 ing of two operators and two miners, 
 to whom shall be referred the question 
 just voted upon. (Seconded and adopt- 
 ed). 
 
 (Messrs. Beattie and Dickerson for 
 the miners, and Messrs. Osbom and 
 Spencer for the operators, were named 
 as said committee). 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I move that Gil- 
 christ aJid Wanlock, Cable and Sher- 
 rard, and the Silvis mine, be fixed at 
 60 cents. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The reason that I 
 put in the Silvis mine is simply be- 
 cause the operator is here now. He 
 belongs to our organization, and I un- 
 derstand he is mining the same seam, 
 and I think in the same market, and I 
 think that they all ought to go togeth- 
 er and settle the whole thing at once. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I move to amend, 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock and Silvis mine, 
 60 cents, coal three feet and a half to 
 three feet 65 cents per ton, coal three 
 feet to two and a half feet 75 cents 
 per ton. Price for ton for coal under 
 two and one-half feet be referred to 
 
156 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION, MARCH 6. 
 
 mine committee and mine manager for 
 
 (On the amendment the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Aye, and ll 
 was lost. On the motion the operators 
 voted Aye, the miners voted No, and It 
 was lost.) 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I move there be a 
 committee, of two operators and two 
 miners, to get together and see if they 
 can fetch in an agreement. (Seconded 
 and carried.) 
 
 (Messrs. Murray and Guthrie for the 
 miners, and Messrs. Shuler and Cable 
 for the operators, were api>olnted on 
 said committee.) ' 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— There is one moie 
 mine in the Eighth district, that is 
 the Wantling mine, No. 1 seam. The 
 committee appointed to fix up the scale 
 day before yesterday, miners and oper- 
 ators, voted to give this "Wantling mine, 
 or the No. 1 seam, 60 cents per ton, 
 and settle the brushing In the Eighth 
 ■district. I believe everybody concern- 
 ed in It was satisfied with that. I don't 
 hear anything else. It was voted on 
 and carried by the committee. 
 
 MR. MARSDEN:— Did I understand 
 Mr. Newsam to say it was settled at 
 60 cents per ton, the Wantling No. 1 
 seam? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— That was my un- 
 derstanding of that meeting that It was 
 so settled. I think the minutes of that 
 meeting will show that that was the 
 scale price. 
 
 MR. MARSDEN:— That wasn't my 
 understanding, by any means. I don't 
 see how you can expect men to go to 
 work In a seam of coal only two feet 
 eight inches In thickness, and on top 
 of that two feet and four Inches of dirt, 
 where they have to get down on the 
 knees and pick It out before they can 
 get to mine the coal. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- 1 call on Mr. Plcton 
 to answer. , 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Chairman, I will 
 state that the delegate who last spoke 
 over there has sanctioned that their 
 price should go In with Cable and Sher- 
 rard or Gilchrist and Wanlock, and it 
 does not include the dirt question at 
 all. As Mr. Newsam says, that goes 
 back to the sub-district for settlement. 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— If you will allow 
 me to say a word, probably I might 
 straighten out some of these crooks. 
 Mr. Newsam was somewhat mistaken. 
 The motion that carried, when the dis- 
 trict president and the delegate and 
 committee was in session, I will read 
 it if you wish: Pottstown No. 1 seam 
 of coal, scale to be the same as Gil- 
 christ and Wanlock, except In the 
 brushing of the top; that shall be set- 
 tled by the sub-district. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I offer the same as 
 a motion. It was passed on at our 
 meeting of the Eighth scale dlstricr. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 understand that the 
 motion is that the mining price for 
 the Pottstown No. 1 seam shall be 60 
 
 cents, the brushing question to be set- 
 tled In sub-district. 
 
 MR. BENT:— This question as I un- 
 derstand, has been discussed in the 
 Eighth district at some length, but it 
 has never been discussed in the opera- 
 tors' meeting at all, either by the exe- 
 cutive commHittee or by the association. 
 Knowing that a mine has been opened 
 up in that field, and in a seam that 
 was not positively identified, our exe- 
 cutive committee named it in the scale, 
 but did not name the rate. Some douot 
 exists as to just what the coal is, just 
 what the quality of the coal is, and 
 just what rate is competitive. There 
 Is a desire on the part of the associa- 
 tion to have a fair competitive scale 
 made at that point, and no one knows 
 that the rate spoken of here Is abso- 
 lutely correct. We do feel that the 
 question of whether or not that rate is 
 competitive should be ascertained by 
 this commlt'te, and by a vote ou 
 merits, after discussion by the people 
 that do know about it. For that rea- 
 son the people in the district that I 
 come from would like to have a dis- 
 cussion in full committee as to what 
 that seam of coal is: what its char- 
 acteristics are, its thickness, and hov/ 
 the 60-cent rate is arrived at; also evi- 
 dence that it Is competitive, and that 
 it isn't too low and isn't too high. 
 
 MR. PICTON: — I wish you would 
 correct that motion. That isn't In the 
 motion, is it? I understand the motion 
 is that Pottstown and No. 1 seam of 
 coal, scale to be the same as Gilchrist 
 and Wanlock, except in brushing of the 
 top; and that may be settled by sub- 
 district. You made the statement 60 
 cents. That isn't correct. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The motion Mr. New- 
 sam offered was just as this typewriten 
 documents here reads. I believe I 
 stated when I put the motion to the 
 committee, 60 cents, I so understood it. 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— If there is any 
 question in regard to the geological 
 number of the seam — 
 
 MR. BENT:— If the committee goes 
 into this question, I would like the 
 consent of this committee to let 0"e 
 or two operators from the third vein 
 be present and listen to the discussioil. 
 It may result In a unanimous opinion 
 on our side of the house. This is what 
 has been designated as Mr. Wantlings 
 unknown seam. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— What thickness of 
 coal, Mr. Wantling, do you figure out 
 that your vein is going to carry? 
 
 MR. "WANTLING:— When we sunk 
 the shaft, we found 3 foot of coal, but 
 in opening out we find it does not ayer- 
 age that. "W"e are now probably 200 
 feet from the shaft and our delegate 
 has brought in, as I understand, an 
 average measurement. I have not 
 measured it; but I understand somn of 
 the places are two feet eleven Inches, 
 two feet ten inches and two feet elg'nt 
 inches. It sees two feet eight Inches 
 to twO' feet nine Inches Is going to be 
 
Afternoon Session, March 6. 
 
 157 
 
 \ 
 about the averag-e. Now, on top of 
 that coal, o\ix delegate from the min- 
 er's side has the measurement of the 
 top, that we will be compelled to taKe 
 down. We cannot attempt to ksep it 
 up. I find the gas gets in it. At flr&t 
 I started to take up the bottom, which 
 is the flre clay. That idea at present 
 we have abandoned, and we are taking 
 down the top. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— You're not proposing 
 to work that on the long wall system? 
 
 MR. WANTLrING:— No, sir; room 
 and pillar system. I have got the 
 geological formation of the strata. I 
 have ffot the strata which we passed 
 through from No. 5 down to No. 1, 
 and I understand ' from the inspector 
 that our state geologist will appreciate 
 a copy. I have kept a copy right alOng, 
 as we have gone down. Mr. Nswsam 
 is satisfied it is No. 1. Men. that have 
 worked at Gilchrist mine, and are 
 working there now for me, they are 
 satisfied it is No. 1 bottom, althou.?h 
 there is a foundation at the top ov'^r 
 this of 40 inches of shales, and a 36- 
 inch vein of coal. Of course, we cannot 
 mine that. It would be too much dirt 
 to handle. Miners know that. We 
 may be able, probably, to get som.e of 
 it out, but it is speculative! It is the 
 No. 1 seam. I want to state, also, 
 that before we sunk that shaft, as you 
 all know, we had some little talk 
 about the third vein, that we have 
 been working for the last four years, 
 and it's been so discouraging to woik 
 it, on account of the rock coming up 
 with the coal. Part of the work has 
 been good, part has been bad, and 
 while the times have been prospering 
 all over, there has been a scarcity of 
 miners, and it has been hard for me 
 to> work the mine, therefore I shut the 
 mine up. The miners said If I would 
 sink to No. 1, they thought there was 
 a five-foot vein there; but I bored down 
 there and found, as I have already 
 stated, three feet, and they said if we 
 went down there they would give us 
 the Gilchrist scale of mining. Now we 
 are there; the coal is as I have stated, 
 and the delegate from there has not 
 missed it but very little on the aver- 
 age. Now we are out from bottom 200 
 feet. We have got some nice coal, and 
 it seems uniform, and I do not hardly 
 anticipate that those two veins will 
 come in. If my prayers will fetch 
 them in, I certainly shall offer them 
 up, but I do not ■ think it will bring 
 them. The conditions look favorable 
 as to two distinct veins, and Mr. New- 
 sam, your state board man, he is fami- 
 liar with the geological strata of the 
 state, and he claims it is No. 1. In .fact, 
 he will bet $1,000 or $5,000, I believe I 
 heard him say the other day, it was 
 No. 1. They state what strengthens 
 the evidence of it being No. 1, "they 
 are boring, and have bored, all around 
 this vicinity, and below, where they 
 strike this vein, they have never struck 
 any more coal. None has been struck 
 
 in those artesians wells around Potls- 
 town, they have found no coal beyond 
 this. I inquired day before yesterday 
 of the man who runs this oil well, an)? 
 asked him at what depth he struck 
 tbis vein. It was stated in the Star 
 that the vein was four feet, and I was 
 anxious to get at the depth, because 
 any one familiar with geological 
 stratus of this county, they can pretty 
 well tell, taking the river to be on a 
 level in this vicinity with No. &. At 
 245 feet, he informed me, they Iiad 
 struck something, that he called a four- 
 foot vein, and he said, they were boring 
 for water, and struck something black, 
 and all they could tell by it, was it 
 drills easier when they get in coal. He 
 says, he knows it was in the neigh- 
 borhood of three feet thick. I am sat- 
 isfied there is no coal below that. It 
 is No 1, because it takes in all the 
 stratus that the state keologist has 
 ever called for. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — May I ask you a ques- 
 tion? Is there anybody interested in 
 the fixing of the scale that disputes 
 whether or not this is No. 1 vein? 
 
 MR. W^ANTLING:— Not to my 
 knowledge. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then I would take it 
 for granted your present discussion is 
 entirely unnecessary. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Wantling, what 
 did you say was the thickness of this 
 seam that you have there? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— It runs from two 
 feet eight inches to two feet eleven 
 inches. 
 
 MR. BENT:- What is the prevailing 
 thickness of the No. 2 seam in Fulton 
 and Peoria counties? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— I should judge it 
 will go down to two feet and up to — 
 we have found some places three, feet, 
 but very rarely. 
 
 MR. BENT:— About the same as this, 
 in thickness? , 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— Ye^, ^ lit Me 
 thicker. 
 
 MR. BENT:— What are the char- 
 acteristics of this coal?. How does it 
 compare in quality with the No. 2? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— The quality with 
 No-. 2, or what we call tbe third vein? 
 It's equally as good, if not better. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is it somewhat better? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— I should judge 
 so. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Does it run about as: 
 the No. 1 throughout the state runs, 
 in quality? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— That I cannot 
 say, about the quality of No. 1 in dif- 
 ferent parts of the state. I have heard 
 it ■ was very good at Assumption and 
 Gilchrist and Cable; that the coal is a 
 fairly good quality there. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN:— Isn't it a better 
 quality of coal than the Cable coal? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— I don't know. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Are you grouped with 
 the northern mines in freight rates to 
 the northwest, ithe same as from 
 Streator to points west of the river? 
 
158 
 
 AvTKRNOOx Session, March 6. 
 
 MR. WANTL.ING:— I'm not positive 
 of that, I hardly think we are. We 
 have got the tariff here, that will show 
 you. They are all in the Peoria dis- 
 trict. Tou see, gentlemen, what has 
 got to come besides this scale, on 
 brushing; it's got to come In the sub- 
 district, 40 inches. 
 
 MR. BENT: — We're not sure whether 
 the resolution of the miners and the 
 resolution of Mr. Ne^sam mean the 
 same thing. We assume, now, that it 
 means 60 cents, but on that assumption 
 I wish to say on behalf of the opera- 
 tors of the third vein district, and I 
 think doubtless for the operators of 
 the state association, that we are in the 
 dark as to just where that coal ought 
 to be classified. We feel it would be 
 working an injustice to Mr. WantlUig 
 to endeavor to fasten upon him a rate 
 higher than he and the miners can 
 agree upon at this time. But there is 
 enough about the matter to cause us 
 anxiety for the future. It seems that 
 the weight of evidence is that this is 
 No. 1 seam. I have heard that ques- 
 tioned. The No. 1 seam, wherever it 
 appears, has been a better quality of 
 coal than the No. 2 seam. The freight 
 rates to the northwest are the same 
 as from the third vein field, and taking 
 all these things into account, and 
 recognizing that thip mine Is an experi- 
 mental one, and that there is no data 
 to establish competitive conditions 
 from, I think if It is satisfactory to 
 the miners and to Mr. Wantlins to 
 make a scale rate for this year which 
 will not be regarded as any precedent, 
 so that the question will come up on 
 its merits in the future if it is demon- 
 strated that the rate is not competi- 
 tive, not only as to other coals in the 
 Eighth district but as between the 
 Eighth district and First dictrlst, there 
 is no desire on our part to embarrass 
 the experiment. Is that satisfactory 
 to you, Mr. Wantling? 
 
 MR. WTLIB:— I want to ask Mr. 
 Wantling: What do you expect the 
 maximum production, of your mine to 
 be? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— That matter will 
 be, if I can run it up to a large out- 
 put I shall be glad to do It, and I shall 
 endeavor to do it. 
 
 MR. WTLIE:— My object in asking 
 that question, was to ascertain some- 
 what as to the cost of his product. The 
 larger he can bring his production the 
 les the coal will cost him. 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— I would state 
 this: I have got yet to sink my es- 
 ca,pement shaft, that's not down, and 
 It will take me this year, very near, 
 to get opened out properly. Of course, 
 my aim will be ttf run as large an out- 
 put as I possibly can, but it is all in 
 the future. It depends on how the 
 mine continues, how the strata tuns 
 out. 
 
 MR. WTLIE:— How deep is the vein? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— Two hundred 
 
 fifty feet below the level of the rail- 
 road. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't think anyone 
 fears the competition of this new mine 
 during the coming year at all, and I 
 do not know that the competition of 
 one mine in that field would ever be 
 feared. The thing that causes the 
 question to be raised at all is simply 
 if the coal is of the quality of the 
 third vein or of superior quality, with 
 equal freight privileges it is bound to 
 become a factor, on that road, or some 
 other road, In the future, by capital 
 coming there because it will have 
 favors that it will not have in the third 
 vein. Purely in the future. If the 
 miners will go on record here as we do, 
 to leave the future absolutely unde- 
 termined, no precedent established, we 
 have no objections whatever, to what- 
 ever rate Mr. Wantling can agree with 
 the miners' organization, but we would" 
 like to have a record made. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There have been a few 
 places wh^re we have been requested 
 to make a scale for similar work, dur- 
 ing the last year or two, where the 
 operator intended to work the mine on 
 the room and pillar system, and the 
 least price we have agreed to any- 
 where is 66 cents. If that was the 
 third vein, that would be equivalent 
 to the present 76-cent rate. If It was 
 the Wilmington vein, it would be 
 equivalent to the present 81-cent rate, 
 and' I want to protest against any rate 
 being fixed here for a similar vein 'ess 
 than 66 cents on the room and pillar- 
 system. I do not care how the commit- 
 tee may vote on this present proposi- 
 tion, I desire to make this statement 
 and get It in the record, that per- 
 sonally — not speaking for anybody else 
 —I protest against a rate being made 
 of less than 66 cents. 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— That, has special 
 reference to long wall work and the 
 third vein. No. 1 vein, If we go to 
 that, Is being worked at Assumption 
 on 60-cent basis. The 60 cents or 66 
 cents, would include brushing. Now, 
 If you add our' brushing on top of this, 
 you will find all the way from 6 to 10 
 cents more that will be added to the 
 price of mining. You lose sight of the 
 fact that I have got the sub-district 
 to settle with for 40 inches brushing 
 that will come in addition to the price 
 of the coal. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire to correct Mr. 
 Wantling's statement that the 66 cents 
 alluded to by me includes brushing. It 
 does not. 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— But it has special 
 reference to the third vein. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It has special reference 
 to a mine worked in the third vein or 
 the Wilmington field, on the room and 
 pillar system, at 66 cents, based on 
 the present price, and It must be sub- 
 ject to any advance secured here m 
 either the Wilmington or third vein 
 field. 
 
 MR. WANTLING: -But we do not 
 
Afternoon Session, March 6. 
 
 159 
 
 figure to work the third vein at all. 
 We have left It entirely. We have 
 got the same thing as Gilchrist and 
 Cable. They made the rate in the 
 north to suit the condition upon the 
 vein that they worked. The^ have 
 never gone to No. 1. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But isn't this better 
 coal than the third vein? 
 
 MR. WANTLING:— I don't know 
 what it will be. I have already ad- 
 mitted as far as I know, that it is 
 a better coal than the other, in my 
 judgment. But do not lose sight of the 
 fact that I have got 40 inches of bruah- 
 Ing to pay for yet, that goes on top of 
 this, and you have nothing to fear, I 
 don't think anywhere. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I wish to add icv 
 protest against any rate being fixed for 
 a vein less than 10 cents less than third 
 vein or Wilmington price. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Ten cents on the Wil- 
 mington? You certainly do not mean 
 that. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I certainly do. Mr. 
 Bent, you lose sight of the fact that 
 we expect 81 cents for third vein and 
 Wilmington field. I will make it tflis 
 way, then: Ten cents less than third 
 vein, and I, for one, will protest just 
 as far and as long and as hard as I can 
 I do not see why we should give hini 
 any better, or that vein any better 
 price than we have given the vein or 
 the mine opened up by the Illinois Ziuc 
 Co. over near Oglesby. They desired 
 a 60-cent rate, and they are working 
 the coal room and pillar and are paying 
 66 cents. If they have brushing to 
 take, which they do have, they pay 
 for that besides, just the same as Mr. 
 Wantling will have to do. If he has 
 40 inches of brushing to take down 
 he will certainly pay for It. If it takes' 
 10 cents more per ton to pay for the 
 40 inches of brushing, he will not have 
 to brush so often as we do in the long 
 wall, one trip through will be suffi- 
 cient. His road will then be high 
 enough to last so long as the road 
 will be used, and his brushing will 
 cost him no more than we aggregate 
 per ton. He takes 40 Inches to begin 
 with; that the third vein operators 
 have to pay for their brushing. I wish 
 to say, Mr. Wantling, that 10 cents per 
 ton on the third vein prices, is all that 
 the operator pays for his brushing. 
 He pays a miner 10 cents per ton for 
 24 inches of brushing, and besides, it 
 keeps many company men going back 
 over the roads, brushing again, paying 
 at a day rate, so y'ou see 10 cents per 
 ton doesn't pay for all the brushing 
 that the operator has done in the third 
 vein. I am sure Mr. Duggan only 
 wishes it did. So if you have 40f inches, 
 to take and the 10 cents doesn't do it, 
 suppose you pay 15 cents, that isn't as 
 ' much as they pay for their brushing 
 in the third vein. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I have listened to 
 this discussion pretty well. You classir 
 fy this with a different kind of work. 
 
 which is entirely out of place. I want 
 to say, and be frank in this matter, 
 as an operator in the Peoria district, 
 and to be fair on both sides, that you 
 have got no right to classify it in any 
 manner, shape or form with the third 
 vein seam. I do not believe it is pos- 
 sible for Mr. Wantling to compete in 
 any market you can take, and pay the' 
 price today of the Gilchrist seam. I do 
 not believe it. I won't have it. In the 
 first place he has got to drive entries, 
 pay so much a yard for en'trles. His 
 screenings go to 34 to 50 per cent on top 
 of that. He has got to do his brush- 
 ing, after all that. Now, is there any 
 man here now who can show me^ 
 where he can compete with the third 
 vein seam? Has it been done before? 
 Is No. 1 placed on the conditions of 
 the third vein seam? I am sorry this 
 thing cannot be worked on the basis 
 that it ought to be worked on. I don't 
 believe that there is an operator in 
 the third vein field today that thinks 
 seriously of being scared of the No. 1 
 seam. I believe today Mr. Wantling Is 
 dumping the two coals together in the 
 same car. Are you not, Mr. Wantling? 
 MR. WANTLING:— At present, yps, 
 sir. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I should never have 
 any fear of the No. 1 seam if I was 
 in the third vein seam: I wouldn't be 
 afraid of it; if I had No. 2 seam I 
 would never be afraid of the No. 1. 
 The Gilchrist seam has fixed that. In 
 my opinion. And I do not believe It is 
 possible for him to compete with the 
 third vein seam in any market we ,an 
 place him. 
 
 MR. MARSDEN:— Mr. Newsam is 
 talking about the No. 1 seam. He doii't 
 know whether that is No. 1 seam, 
 neither does Mr. Wantling, the man 
 that is operating the mine. Neither 
 does the state mine inspector. He has 
 been down there and he <;annot say it 
 is No. 1 seam. He doesn't know which 
 seam it It. He says according to .iirt 
 stratus, it doesn't have the same show- 
 ing as the No. 1 seam whatever. He 
 cannot tell which seam it is. It is what 
 the geological people called the "Lost 
 Vein." But in order to settle this mat- 
 ter right, I may state that the men 
 accepted the No. 1 conditions, which 
 were 60 cents per ton, and as Mr. Want- 
 ling surmises himself also, the m=^n 
 thought the vein was getting thicker, 
 but as far as he has gone, up to the 
 present time. It averages about two I'eet 
 eight inches, and at present prices it is 
 impossible for a man to make anything 
 near decent wages, because it takes 
 such an awful lot of powder to shoot 
 it. At the present time the miners are 
 only averaging ten tons to a keg of 
 powder. After paying for the keg of 
 powder, that leaves him $4.25 out of 
 the keg, and at the present tlnie they 
 are not satisfied with No. 1 conditions. 
 If there was any signs that It would 
 go the same as No. 1, up and down, 
 through thick and thin, they would ac- 
 
160 
 
 Aftbrnoon session, March 6. 
 
 cept them, but according- to the way 
 it Is going at the present time, it's not 
 showing that it's going to he lilte No. 
 1 at all. In the No. 1 vein they haven't 
 this 16 inches and three feet and a half 
 above. Here he has two feet eiprht 
 inches of coal, then he has to take 
 down three feet and four inches of dirt, 
 and then he has 16 inches of coal. He 
 has two feet vein of coal, and three 
 feet and a half of dirt, averages 40 
 inches of dirt on top of that, and then 
 there is 16 inches of coal he leaves <'or 
 the roof, and 1 say these conditions 
 show that it is entirely different from 
 the No. 1 vein. 
 
 , MR. MOORSHEAD:— I do not thinli 
 it makes any difference whether it is 
 No. 1 or No. 3 seam, or what they have 
 to do. This matter has been settled 
 here, as I understand it, by a report 
 being brought in, and I furthermore 
 understand that both siats are satis- 
 fled to vote on the matter. Mr. Wane- 
 ling has been extremely fair in thf 
 matter, and more so than I am afraid 
 many operators and miners have shown 
 a disposition to be in many eases, for 
 he has saliS that he will be wUling at 
 the end of the year, if competitive con- 
 ditions show thalt he should have a 
 different mining rate, to consider it; he 
 has agreed to that. Now I do not konw 
 what more Mr. Wantling can do. That 
 .seems to be satisfactory to the third 
 sein people, who more than any one 
 <-lse, are likely to come into competi- 
 tion with the coal coming from ih.p 
 mine, and I think the matter ought 
 to be settled right here, and take a, 
 vote and end It. 
 
 MR. MITCHELT:,:— I would like to 
 ask the delegate from this mine if he 
 was present when this report was 
 brought in here? 
 
 MR. MARSDEN:— Yes. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It appears to me 
 that if a person serving on a com- 
 mittee agrees to a report, that they 
 ought to be willing to acept their own 
 report. I believe in being absolutely 
 fair in fixing prices, and if this place 
 Is entitled to a rate above 60, then 
 the rate at Gilchrist, "Wanlock, Cable 
 and Sherrard should be raised above 
 60 cents. I understand this report pro- 
 vides that thev shall take the same 
 rate which prevails at Gilchrist and 
 "Wanlock. It -is expected that a rat^ 
 will be made for those places higher 
 than 60 cents if they have extremely 
 low coal, and if this coal at Mr. Want- 
 ling's mine runs below the height that 
 takes a higher price, then Mr. Want- 
 ling's vein will take a higher rate. 
 
 Mr. Bent raised the question as tO' 
 the matter of a revision of the scale 
 a year from now, if it develops 'that 
 this is a serious factor in the market. 
 I want to say that our organization 
 has always reserved the right to change 
 prices if it can, at any point, and I be-, 
 lieve the operators' organization has 
 agreed that , we may change Internal 
 prices at any time if we find they are 
 
 out of line, at the time the scales are 
 made. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That Is entirely saitis- 
 factory, eixcept ithat we all know how 
 difHcult it is to change existing condi- 
 tions when once established, and we do 
 not wish to have this even established 
 as a precedent. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— What I want to say 
 is this, something on the line Mr. 
 Moorshead spoke, that the only ques- 
 tion with the third vein operators is 
 the possibility that this vein will thick- 
 en out and be a much superior quality 
 of coal to the third vein field. For 
 myself, I have no fear of it interfering 
 very much. We are perfectly willins to 
 vote for a 60-cent rate, I think, or to 
 put it the same as Mr. Mitchell does, 
 at whatever ' the settlement is at the 
 other places. We do not want to do 
 anything to hamper Mr. Wantling in 
 his enterprise. He certainly has got 
 more nerve, I think, than any other 
 man in this room, to have undertaken 
 what he has, and we ought not to do 
 anything here today, either as miners 
 or operators, to hamper him or stop 
 his going ahead and finding out what 
 this is. and that is one reason I feel 
 that we ought to settle this satisfactor- 
 ily to Mr. Wantling, at least for this 
 year. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, and the 
 miners voted Aye and the motion was 
 carried.) 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— They propose, 
 Mr. President, to be fair in this matter, 
 and if they say they are willing to leave 
 Litchfield and Chatham to a commit- 
 tee, give them some length of time, 
 let them go there and see these places, 
 apd if they are entitled to a compensa- 
 tion that the scale will be 54 cents for 
 coal. They have reduced it to four 
 feet and under 54 cents. If they 
 haven't any ooal there in them 
 disputed places, if they take their low 
 coal and they're satisfied to leave it to 
 a committee, give them 30 days to re- 
 port, or such as that, the committee 
 to be any miners that may be selected, 
 and any of the operators, the same 
 amount of miners, and if they cannot 
 agree, an equal number of miners and 
 operators, call in somebody Ihat ain't 
 interested in the mining matter at ail. 
 some fair man. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The proposition is 
 not satisfactory tO' the operators in the 
 Fourth district. As I have stated sev- 
 eral times before, it is absolutely im- 
 possible for the district to pay any 
 advance in the mining rate. To do so 
 would close the mines up completely. 1 
 stated this morning, I think, that it 
 was the custom when, coal got low, so 
 low that a miner could not make a 
 day's wages, to abandon the room and 
 give the man another place. I will say 
 that this has never occurred in our 
 Chatham mine that our men there 
 make higher wages than they do in 
 any of the rest of our mines, and that 
 the wages they make are so high that 
 
AFTERNOON Sbssion, March 6. 
 
 161 
 
 nobody can justly complain. The coal 
 at Litchfield, I think (I'm not so faml 
 liar with that, and I will not state) 
 but you have heard what Mr. Crabb 
 said about it, that the men in the low 
 coal there make as high or higher 
 wages than they d6 in the high coal. 
 The compensating advantages which 
 they enjoy, make up the difference in 
 the height of the coal. I supposed un- 
 til I came to this convention, that the 
 district was absolutely safe from any 
 attempts to raise the mining rate. I 
 supposed they had everything fixed 
 that they wished for, or asked for, or 
 could think of. But it seems the In- 
 genuity and the desire of the men there 
 are never satisfied. We must decline 
 to consider any higher rate than \S 
 cents, because to do sO' would put It 
 beyond the power of the operator to 
 operate the mine. 
 
 MR. DEIiEHANTT:— Mr. Lukens, he 
 knows himself, last night when this 
 committee met up here, I didn't have 
 anything to say in it at all, I wasn't 
 on the committee. They just made me 
 come up and wait till they got through. 
 But the delegate from Litchfield show- 
 ed they were not able to make as much 
 as the men in other places, and there 
 was trouble there; they were having 
 considerable trouble. Mr. Lukens 
 heard this as well as me. IJe cannot 
 dispute it. Mr. Lukens says the men, 
 when they run into low coal, they will 
 give them other places. Will Mr. Lu- 
 kens be satisfied if the men going into 
 low coal, go into a room that runs be- 
 low the specified height we are talking 
 of, will he pay him then for that room, 
 when he gets below the four feet or 
 five feet, or whatever they agree on? 
 Will he be satisfied to do that? Are 
 you satisfied, Mr. Lukens? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I will very willingly 
 do that, if you will give, us a corres- 
 ponding reduction for all over five feet 
 or six feet. Now, we have gone in that 
 district as high as ten feet and 9 feet. 
 Eight feet is common. Do we get any 
 reduction for that? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Tou are not 
 entitled to any reduction. Tou have 
 got everything that you are entitled to 
 in that district. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I told you a minute 
 ago we had got everything you could 
 think of. The situation in that district 
 is peculiar, as I have before stated. 
 "We are geographically the most un- 
 fortunately situated of any district in 
 the state of Illinois. We are the fur- 
 thest from the market, of any district 
 with the same quality of coal. Any 
 coal that we compete with, either en- 
 joys a lower freight rate or has a bet- 
 ter quality of coal. Now, Mr. Crabb 
 produced figures last night to the com- 
 mittee tO' show them — figures that were 
 a part of his report to the United States 
 court, which he is compelled to swear 
 to — that he had less than a 5-cent mar- 
 gin in that coal, without counting 
 court costs, without counting anything 
 
 for his services whatever as receiver, 
 and showed conclusively that It would 
 be absolutely impossible for him to pay 
 any advance there and operate the 
 mine. He also stated that the judge 
 would not allow him to operate it with- 
 out he could pay the operating ex- 
 penses; would not allow him to operate 
 it if he could not pay the operating 
 expenses; that he absolutely refused to 
 allow him to borrow any money ex- 
 cept to pay off the men— or pay off the 
 amount due the men when he took It. 
 It seems when Mr. Crabb took hold 
 of that Litchfield property the com- 
 pany was owing the men about $3,000. 
 The former management had failed to 
 pay operating expenses, and had quit 
 owing the men the amount stated, be- 
 sides everybody else that they could get 
 into. Now, Mr. Crabb stated positively 
 that he was not authorized by the court 
 to operate that property, unless It could 
 pay operating expenses, and so far as 
 he was personally concerned, he could 
 not do it, and he gave you figures to 
 show that if he paid you this advance 
 you asked, he could not pay operat- 
 ing expenses. I want toi say as far 
 as our Chatham mine is concerned, wt 
 are about in the same fix. We could 
 not pay an increase of price if the coal 
 should get down low. I want to say to 
 you further, that when I was at Virden 
 over Sunday, I had a talk with the 
 mine manager there, and he tells me 
 since he has been there, which was 
 about the first of October, he has not 
 used 25 props that were less than six 
 feet long. In other words, he has had 
 no low coal. There was no occasion for 
 any controversy over the height of the 
 coal at the Chatham mine whatever. 
 The coal there, it Is true, it a little 
 thinner than at "Virden, and Auburn, 
 but it still is very much above the five 
 feet. I might say that on the last pay 
 rolls, a large amount of men drew over 
 $60 net, which was for 11 days, 3 hours 
 and a half; a large number drew over 
 $50, and there were mighty few of them 
 that went under $40. Now, I contend 
 that where men can make this kind 
 of wages, that you are not justified in 
 asking any advance, when the advance 
 would put the company out of the mar- 
 ket, and absolutely compel them to 
 close the mine up. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— There's no use 
 taJking about this big money going to 
 them places. Now, this isn't so, be- 
 cause I know this to be a fact, that 
 this money wasn't made in that field 
 at all. That money wasn't made, Mr. 
 Lukens, and you know it. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty, I 
 want to say to you that I looked over 
 the pay roll myself, I examined it care- 
 fully, to see just what the men were 
 making, and I know what I am talking 
 about. I am not in the habit of mak- 
 ing any false statetaents, and as a gen- 
 eral proposition I do not make a state- 
 ment unless I know what 1 am talking 
 
162 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 6. 
 
 about, and I want to say to you what 
 I said there Is so. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTT:— That may be 
 all correct, Mr. Lukens. You must un- 
 derstand I am in a position to know 
 what them men draws, too. Tou know 
 very well, yourself, when we had a dis- 
 ' pute about a month ago in regard to 
 that per cent to be given back to the 
 men, that two per cent, when we wenc 
 to the office and drew th& per cent of 
 all the money that they had coming 
 ' to them, there wasn't more than, it 
 didn't average mor6 than $16 for the 
 two weeks' pay. Machine men that run 
 as high as $22, and some of them as 
 high as $18. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Lukens alluded to 
 ■wages made at the Chatham mine. You 
 are talking about wages you are con- 
 tending were made at the Virden mine. 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Either of those 
 mines. I'm talking of my personal 
 knowledge. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You dispute the state- 
 ment that he made in regard to the 
 wages he claims were made by the 
 Chatham miners? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I don't know 
 anything about what they made in 
 Chatham. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You said it was not 
 true. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I meant to say, 
 I thought he said the miners down 
 there. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— He said the Chatham 
 mine. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:- 1 do not know 
 what they make in the Chatham mine. 
 I do not think they make that amount 
 of money. This is one thing to be 
 understood, that this thing has come 
 up before the sub-district meetings, 
 and it was referred back to the state 
 convention, and there is an aggravated 
 trouble there, both in Litchfield and in 
 Chatham, and they want this company 
 to do something for them, and make a 
 scale for them. We offered everything 
 in reason to Mr. Lukens, and he would 
 not accept nothing. "We offered to 
 leave it to an arbitration, or else tO' 
 pay for coal that even went under four 
 feet. If that wasn't reasonable I don't 
 know how to fix it. 
 
 I see a good many of these cases In 
 these disputed points is left to be fixed 
 by arbitration, and I ask that to get 
 through with It, this be left that way. 
 They are the only two places in dispute. 
 That's as far as I can think of, and I 
 think it's fair enough, if Mr. Lukens 
 will only accept It. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— I am very sorry to 
 see these arguments coming in in the 
 way they are. I recollect the making 
 of these scales. I do not recollect that 
 there was any standard height of coal 
 to be made for these scales. If there 
 had, there would have been quite a 
 difference in the Peoria district. I re- 
 member very well that the delegates 
 from the mines came in and gave the 
 heights of coal at this place and that 
 
 place. I recollect making the statement 
 on the floor and I believe the operators 
 here will sustain me in it, that while I 
 had about the highest coal in' the Peoria 
 district I believed that the operators 
 that have lower coal should have the 
 same advantages that I have. I recol- 
 lect the scales were made in all these 
 districts. I believe I made the state- 
 ment after these scales were made, 
 that any one trying to break these 
 scales in these districts would have 
 trouble on his hands. Now, I cannot 
 believe that there was a scale made 
 on six feet of coal, or any five feet of 
 coal, or any four feet of coal. The 
 scale was made in the districts on 
 really the competitive basis, at that 
 time, as near as it could possibly be. 
 It has got to a pitch now when even 
 six feet of coal is, the standard. Five 
 feet of coal is getting below the 
 standard in any of the districts. Bight 
 feet and nine feet of coal will soon be 
 the standard, if it's kept uo, and 
 we will never have any scale in this 
 state. I do not believe, I never have 
 believed, that we can make a standard 
 height of coal in the same district at 
 all. If we do it, half of your mines in 
 the district, in the competitive field, 
 will be shut out, and cannot go, be- 
 cause a few cents a ton will shut out 
 any operator, the margin is so close, 
 and It seems to me we are leaving 
 the main point of what this organiza- 
 tion is meant for; that we are going 
 to get into trouble more and more 
 every year, by taking and making a 
 height of coal, or a different height 
 of coal in the same district, in the 
 same seam. Gentlemen, I hope this 
 thing will stop for the benefit of the 
 miner, for the benefit of the operator, 
 and for the benefit of both organisa- 
 tions. If we would take the basis that 
 Mr. Delehanty spoke of, now, even in 
 the third vein seam, we would have 
 the whole thing turned upside down. 
 If we would take it in the fifth seam, 
 we would have it all turned upside 
 down, and it would be utterly impos- 
 sible for the miners and operators to 
 come together on any basis at all, and 
 it certainly would bust up the whole 
 thing. That's my opinion of it. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I want to ask, 
 Mr. President, when a certain place 
 becomes deficient work, is a man sup- 
 posed to work at that without com- 
 pensation? That's what I want to find 
 out. 
 
 MR RYAN:— Are you asking me the 
 
 question? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Yes. 
 
 MR. RYAN: -If it becomes deficient 
 work I say no, a man should not work 
 It without compensation. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:-That's what I 
 want to ask. 
 
 T^T^^ f-UKENS:-! would like to ask 
 Mr Delehanty if he thinks the Litch- 
 field mine could operate and pay a 
 higher mining rate? *- j » 
 
Afternoon Session, March 6. 
 
 163 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— If the work Is 
 •deficient I think he should pay. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That isn't the question 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Yes. 
 
 MR. L.TJKBNS:— You think It could, 
 In spite of those figures he showed us 
 la^t night? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— If he couldn't 
 pay a higher price, then he could give 
 them other places to work. They are 
 satisfied with that. Take them out of 
 those low places and give them othei 
 places to work, that he don't have to 
 pay anything extra for. If you do the 
 same at Chatham, the Chatham men 
 would be satisfied, and that settles it 
 up. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— I think Mr. Crabb's 
 position is something like this: He is 
 operating the mine for the court. They 
 are trying to keep the mine in position 
 so they can make some disposition of 
 it. If they stop the rooms, and dig 
 in here and dig in there, nobody 
 wants the mine, dug in that condition. 
 It seems to me it is the proper thing 
 to make a scale for this mine, or for 
 that field, that "will 'cover the case, 
 where it won't be necessary for the 
 court to appoint a receiver for the re- 
 ceiver. That is about what they are 
 coming to. If the present receiver can- 
 not, make any money there will have to 
 be a receiver appointed for him or the 
 property will have to be given away 
 tO' somebody who> will run it and take 
 the chances. It Is certainly a very 
 bad case and we ought tO' take the mat- 
 ter under consideration, and if he can- 
 not get men to work for him at these 
 prices that will settle the question. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I would just like to 
 ask Mr. Lukens one question. He made 
 a suggestion here on the fioor that 
 when coal got deficient, classified de- 
 ficient coal, he would just simply take 
 the man out and arive him another 
 place. Are you willing to go on record 
 as saying that if such should happen 
 in your mines, and there was no further 
 trouble, the man would be taken out 
 and given another place to work? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— We certainly would 
 not be willing to let the miner be the 
 judge of whether the work was defi- 
 cient or not. In our mines we have 
 had no trouble on that score at all, and 
 I take It from what Mr. Crabb says 
 that that is true in his mine. As I 
 have stated before, the price is so 
 Tilgh, and the conditions In our district 
 are such, that coal has to get mighty 
 thin before a man's earnings drop down 
 so low that he cannot make day wages. 
 As a matter of fact long before a man 
 reaches that stage he begins to kick 
 and makes it so disagreeable he gen- 
 erally gets another place. It seems to 
 me there Isn't anything In this ques- 
 tion at all, and I am surprised that 
 the miners brought it up, and am sur- 
 prised now that they make any conten- 
 tion. There has been no trouble in our 
 Chatham mine over this at all. The 
 
 coal there does no't get so low there 
 Is any cause for complaint. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, I want to move 
 that the price for the C. & A. sub-dis- 
 trict be 49 cents a ton. This to include 
 to and Including Carllnville, including 
 Taylorville, Pana, Litchfield, Hillsboro, 
 Witt (Paisley), Dlvemon and Pawnee 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I move to 
 amend by making It "over five feet; 
 and under 54 cents." (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted No, and the 
 miners voted Aye, and the amendment 
 was lost.i 
 
 (On the original motion, the operators 
 voted Aye, and the miners voted No, 
 and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Before the miners 
 vote, I would like to have the miners' 
 committee retire for a short time. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Before we lose sight 
 of It, I would like to know whether 
 Mr. Lukens will answer the question 
 yes or no, that I asked him, and I will 
 get up and make the motion.! It's his 
 bwn proposition, that I took him at, 
 and I am pretty well acquainted with 
 what has been put up against every 
 man that objects to working In, any 
 place. If we don't want to work, take 
 our tools and go. He said he would 
 merely quit working that coal and give 
 them another place. I asked him If 
 he would go 'on record as saying he 
 would do it without any further 
 trouble, if it could be shown It was 
 under four fget would he give him an- 
 other place or not. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Does Mr. Lukens an- 
 swer the question yes or no? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Not when the ques- 
 tion is put as It Is put, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 (Another vote was taken on the ori- 
 ginal motion, the operators voted Aye 
 and the miners voted Aye, and the mo- 
 tion was carried.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— In regard to the Mor- 
 ris and Seneca rate, I have favored all 
 along letting those two points rest, un- 
 til the Wilmington rate was establish- 
 ed, because there seemed to be plenty 
 of time in which to arrange those mat- 
 ters afterward. But now when two 
 weeks nearly have elapsed It seems to 
 me we ought to adopt the other policy. 
 The question is whether those two 
 points are entitled to the Wilmington 
 rata or not, and if they are not entltle<J 
 to the Wilmington rate, how much high- 
 er than the Wilmington rate should they 
 ^be. I move that a committee of two 
 operators and two miners be appointed 
 to consider the Seneca and Morris rate, 
 relative to the Wilmington field, and re- 
 port to this body as soon as possible. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— If we, are going to 
 change the policy we must go back into 
 the Eighth district again. W^ have 
 also a matter there that is unsettled. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I was going to suggest 
 simply what Mr. Justl has just said, 
 that that committee ought to be con- 
 stituted differently, and not make a 
 
164 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 committee that has already wrestled 
 with the question and failed, and, of 
 course, bring before it those who have 
 been on the committee and are other- 
 wise interested. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, and the 
 miners voted Aye, and it was carried.) 
 (W. E. Smith and Robert Condon for 
 the miners, and Mr. Buchanan and Mr. 
 Wylie for the operators, were appointed 
 as said committee.) 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I will state that 
 I have talked' to Mr. Hull about the 
 Kinmundy long wall rate, and he said 
 that he did not wish to raise any ob- 
 jection, if it had not been passed on, 
 to let it g-o. He was indifferent as to 
 whether there would be a rate made for 
 the long wall or not. 
 
 MR. SBCOR:— If there Is to be a rate 
 established at all, I think he would 
 probably have a preference about it; I 
 think there would be no question about 
 that. But I think he is not very anx- 
 ious to have a rate established, for I 
 asked him, and I did not get very much 
 satisfaction. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I am satisfied 
 from what he said, that he would not 
 be satisfied with third vein conditions. 
 MR. RYAN:— If Mr. Hull is satisfied 
 to let the matter stand, I don't know 
 but what the miners are. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— He told us he did 
 not care whether they made a rate or 
 not. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN: — When that 
 question was up, after him saying he 
 did not care whether there was a rate 
 or not, I moved to put it in the rec- 
 ord, that there would be no scale for 
 long wall at Kinmundy, and he then 
 objected. He said he wanted to see 
 his Superintendent before he would 
 agree to it. I don't know what he has 
 dona since. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I think the matter 
 ought to be deferred until Mr. Hull is 
 in here. He ought to come in here and 
 speak for himsMf. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I am authorized to 
 move that no scale be 'made for long 
 wall at Kinmundy, but if the company 
 there at any time during the scale yeai 
 desires to operate long wall, then at its 
 initiative it shall be taken up locally. 
 It is the understanding that if it is 
 taken up locally, that the state officials 
 co-operate. (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 MR. PICTON:— The committee have 
 got their report, as far as reporting 
 back to this convention, ready, with 
 the exception of drawing it up, and 
 have come to an understanding, but 
 they ask until nine o'clock tomorrow 
 morning to report. 
 
 SUB-SOALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 7, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called tO' order at 
 9:30 a. m. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Mr. Perry, of 
 the First district, was called home last 
 
 night, and Mr. W. J. Rogers takes his: 
 place on the committees. 
 
 Is the Eighth district committee 
 ready to report this morning? 
 
 MR. LtTKENS:- 1 understand the- 
 committee from the First district, to- 
 whom was referred the Seneca aaA 
 Morris rate, had a meeting last night 
 and the probabilities are they will not 
 be ready to report this morning. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I believe they are to- 
 meet at nine o'clock. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It seems to me it 
 would be better to take up the resolu- 
 tions and see what we can accomplish- 
 there, and be ready for the reports of 
 the different committees. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — If there are no objec- 
 tions they will be taken up. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— What is the use of 
 taking up the resolutions before we 
 dispose of the districts? It has been, 
 all thoroughly threshed out here be- 
 fore, and I think the most important 
 matter before this committee is to have 
 the scale adopted before we so over 
 any resolutions, adopting a scale of 
 prices for next year. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— If we follow 
 such a course as that, we will not do 
 any work here until the committees 
 report. That won't do. We might 
 just as well go on with some of these- 
 resolutions. There's no good of sitting 
 here and waiting for the committees to 
 rf^port. 
 
 MR. -MORRIS:— As I understand it,, 
 the First district has not been referred 
 to any committee, also the Williamson 
 county matter. It's before this con- 
 vention, and has not been referred to- 
 any committee. Therefore the claim 
 of Mr. Moorshead that we have nothing 
 to do, — in my opinion we have got a 
 good deal to do if the stand is taken 
 upon both sides in regard to those two 
 districts, that has been taken hereto- 
 fore. I do not believe that we have 
 any right at this time to adpot anv 
 resolutions governing the scale for the- 
 coming year, before we first have the- 
 scale adopted whereby the resolutions 
 may govern. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I simply wish to say 
 that we do not wish to have the resolu- 
 tions embarrass the other side, at all. 
 We are willing to vote just as you do- 
 in regard to the matter, — pass the reso- 
 lution, withdraw it, or vote it do-wm. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- 1 move we take up- 
 the resolutions in the old agreement. 
 (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 (The secretary will read the first 
 resolution in the present agreement,. 
 and its adoption was moved ajid sec- 
 onded). 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I move the following- 
 amendment: "The above rate shall in- 
 cludi-5 the laying and maintenance of 
 all track in all working places, up to- 
 
 the face by the operators, and all mine- 
 cars shall have closed ends." 
 MR. BENT:— It seems to me that 
 
 does not amend the resolution. That 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 165 
 
 tlje proper time to consider that would 
 Tae when the subject matter is simi- 
 lar. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I did not offer it as 
 ■an amendment. I offered it as a sub- 
 stitute. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It certainly is not a 
 -substitute for the clause read by the 
 secretary. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The point of order 
 Avould be the same anyhow, it does not 
 relate to the same subject matter. 
 
 Mr. MITCHELL,:— Does not section 
 1 offered by Mr. Bent practically set- 
 tle every matter in controversy? Would 
 not the adoption of this first resolu- 
 ■tion in effect settle every matter that 
 ^ is now under discussion. It occurs 
 to me we had better pass the first res- 
 -olutlon, and go on (through with the 
 others. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 want to say, that 1 
 do not think it would, on account of the 
 exception at the last of the clause, 
 "except as may be provided." Now, 
 -the intention of that is, as I under- 
 stand it. "as may be provided in the 
 paragraphs that come after it in this 
 agreement." 
 
 MR. BENT:— That's just what it 
 •means. Our position is well known, 
 "but this paragraph here is perfectly 
 safeguarded. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — "Except as may be pro- 
 vided in this contract," or "hereinaf- 
 ter," or any way you desire to make it. i 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What would its 
 •effect be in making a sub-district scale? 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is obvious— I shall 
 qualify what I said, by saying that if 
 ■this is adopted, the cost of coal cannot 
 "be increased in any district of the state 
 In sub-district meeting, unless some 
 -paragraph, the one just spoken of, or 
 some other, refers such right to the 
 sub-district. Any resoljidon we pass 
 here now is only tentative anyhow; it 
 must be adopted as a whole after- 
 wards. I think the word "herein" 
 would better be inserted. 
 
 MR- MORRIS:— I would like to know 
 if Mr. Bent claims that the enforcing 
 of conditions, uniform conditions, all 
 ■over this state, will increase the cost 
 of production of coal in the state. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Mitchell, the point 
 you raise will be and must be covered 
 In different paragraphs throughout 
 this agreement. I cannot see where it 
 shall hinder the committee taking ac- 
 tion on this particular clause. The 
 matters you refer to will certainly be 
 •covered in the following paragraphs. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- I do' not see any 
 ne?d of taking that paragraph up at 
 this time. I know after it was adopt- 
 ed last year and we went into the sub- 
 district, they used that paragraph there 
 against us. Let's take each section of 
 the scale and go through it, and then 
 adopt the first clause which shall cov- 
 ■er the whole. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The thing would not be 
 ratified as a whole unless this para- 
 graph suits you. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Let's pass it for the 
 present. 
 
 (The secretary read the second sec- 
 tion of the present agreement). 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 the second paragraph of the operators' 
 scale contract, which adds to those ex- 
 emptions, surface prop man, electrician, 
 coal inspector, teamster and stable 
 man. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Speaking for the 
 miners, I desire to say we will not 
 consider the exemptions named by Mr. 
 Bent. It's entirely contrary to the 
 policy of our organization in general, 
 and it should be contrary tO' the policy 
 of the operators' organization, to seek 
 to establish six or seven different labor 
 organizations controlling different de- 
 partments of employes In and about 
 the mines. We are not going to expel 
 frcm our organization any more of the 
 men employed around the mines than 
 we have already provided for. You 
 have more men by agreement excluded 
 from our organization in Illinois than 
 there is in any other state and we are ' 
 not going to exclude any more of them. 
 In doing this we not only seek to pro- 
 tect ourselves by making a contract 
 with you, but we want to protect our- 
 selves from eight or ten other labor or- 
 ganizations that will seek to extend 
 their jurisdiction and get a hold on the 
 mines, and use us as a cat's paw td 
 get them out of trouble when they get 
 into it. 
 
 MR. SWEET: — There is one very Im- 
 portant man that is given In our scale 
 here, and that Is the coal inspector. 
 Now, that coal inspector should be a 
 company man. If he Is not, — ^If you 
 control him and control the man that 
 he calls down from the top, what pro- 
 tection have we got in the cleaning of 
 our coal? That is one of the most im- 
 portant questions that we have today. 
 We practically have no control over 
 the Inspection of our coal, and it's get- 
 ting; to be a very serious matter. 1 
 do not see why you should claim this 
 man who is our Inspector and should 
 be e. company man. There are others 
 that are equally necessary, but this 
 particularly, not only cuts into the 
 cost of our coal, but the putting of it 
 in the market, and we should have a 
 man there whom we can absolutely 
 trust to do his duty. W^e have had cases 
 where our inspectors have been noti- 
 fied by the miners that they had got to 
 stop that or else they would put a 
 head on them. That's the way the 
 questlo'n comes in. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is the inspector 
 your car trimmer? 
 
 Mr. SWEET:— I mean the car trim- 
 mer. He is the inspector. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is simply 
 an ordinary outside laborer. 
 
 MR. SWEET:- That's all. He Isan 
 outside laborer, but he is the coal in- 
 spector. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It seems to me there 
 
166 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 are good reasons for deferring action 
 on this resolution also. It is admit^^ed 
 that the provisions of the contract for 
 giving us cleian coal have not been sat- 
 isfactory the past year. The miners 
 admit that, as well as the operators. 
 We want to arrive at something be- 
 fore we leave here, that will commend 
 itself to the good judgment of each side. 
 And the question of the coal inspector 
 is involved in that. A plan that solves 
 that, will, I believe, be satisfactory to 
 the operators, whether it means he 
 shall be a company man k)r otherwise. 
 At least our committee is willing to 
 consider a plan on either basis. 
 
 The question about the stable man is 
 Involved very closely with what the con- 
 tract shall provide in regard to the 
 harnessing and unharnessing of the 
 mules, and that will throw some light 
 on whether the stable man should be 
 exempted or not. It seems to me this 
 resolution should be laid on the table, 
 for the present, and I so move. (Sec- 
 onded and carried). 
 
 (The secretary read tlje third clause 
 of the present agreement and its adop- 
 tion was moved And seconded). 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and it was carried). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is the Eighth district 
 committee ready to report? 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— I will say that we 
 agreed to disagree. There was a time 
 last evening when we thought we 
 might possibly come to an understand- 
 ing, but we . met the operators this 
 morning and they went back on their 
 own proposition a>nd that lands us 
 where we first started. 
 
 MR. RYAN; — On what does the com- 
 mittee disagree? 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— In regard to Wan- 
 look and Gilchrist No. 1 seam. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The low coal? 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— The low coal. 
 
 MR. SHULiER:— I wish to correct 
 Mr. Guthrie's statement. The operat- 
 ors did not make any proposition. The 
 proposition came from their side of the 
 house, and we took it under considera- 
 tion during the night. We concluded 
 we did not care to accept it for a good 
 many reasons and therefore we dis- 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— I would like to say 
 that the operators in the first place did 
 make the proposition to us and after 
 we conferred with a few of the boys 
 we made some change in it, but it was 
 the same proposition that they offered 
 us in the first place. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— I again rise to state 
 that we made no proposition. What we 
 were trying to do was to bring out 
 from the miners' side a day rate which 
 they would be satisfied with in case 
 of deficient work. There was np pro- 
 position made, one way or the other, 
 and they came back with a proposition 
 to take a day rate which we refused. 
 
 MR. MURRAY:— I say the proposi- 
 tion came from the operators' side. The 
 only thing we did differ on was the 
 
 price, or what would be the scale for 
 coal diggers for digging by the day in 
 deficient work. We referred it back 
 to the boys, and we came back and 
 made the proposition to them that we 
 would accept their proposition and add 
 at $2.25 a day. That is what we add- 
 ed to It, for this deficient work. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I would like to 
 get clear on this matter. Was it 
 agreed between the operators and min- 
 ers on this committee that there should 
 be something paid for low coal? 
 
 MR. SHULER:— No. sir. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Was it agreed 
 that there should be a deficient scale? 
 Do the operators ask that coal be dug 
 for 60 cents a ton no difference how 
 low it gets. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— We have taken care 
 of each and every individual case, and 
 I think there isn't a statement here to 
 contradict that we have done so. We 
 have made our men, each and every 
 one of them, satisfied with their con- 
 ditions, and there is nothing to prove 
 differently, and we are now working, 
 as we think, 4 cents above the scale, 
 which the records will show. We are 
 contending that we ought to be four 
 cents below where vre are now, and 
 we do not propose to go back and have 
 a scale fastened on us that is going to 
 increase the cost of our mining. Any 
 man who is working in coal that has 
 been deficient, it has been made up and 
 satisfied each individual. 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— I wish to state in 
 a good many cases these individuals 
 haven't been satisfied. There has 
 been a good deal of contention in re- 
 gard to this low coal. Some men are 
 working in places as low as 2 feet S 
 inches, and 2 feet 10 Inches, and 3 feet, 
 and other men in places at 4 feet, and 
 there should be some regularity In re- 
 gard to it. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— There isn't a single 
 instance on record here, of anv man 
 that has not been satisfied, and I chal- 
 lenge that statement, and say that they 
 cannot produce any from their side of 
 the house. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— While I'm not going^ 
 to contradict Mr. Shuler, it is a fact to 
 that same seam in other localities that 
 they have not been satisfied. I do not 
 know as I ever had a case up, parti- 
 cularly in Mr. Shuler's mine, but I have 
 in other localities in the same seam. 
 
 MR. MURRAY:— We have a number 
 of cases of dissatisfaction, and we be- 
 lieve we can prove that they have had 
 no compensation for this deficient 
 work. I believe there are even some 
 statements in this meeting now, and if 
 there is time I believe we can find a 
 number here. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— We would like verv 
 much to have these cases brought be- 
 fore the oomniittee for our own en- 
 lightenment as well as the enlighten- 
 ment of the committee. I request that 
 they shall be brought up. 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 167 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— I would like to 
 make a statement here. The reason 
 why we haven't any other statements 
 here, other than my own, is simply the 
 fact we thougrht it was generally un- 
 derstood there was great dissatisfac- 
 tion in that mine oonoerning this defic- 
 ient work in low coal, and the only ob- 
 ject in bringing my statement here,— 
 it wasn't to prove the men were not 
 getting— that is, me, individually, 
 wasn't getting pay for low coal at fair 
 wages, but it was to show the differ- 
 ence between the seam of coal we are 
 working, as it is reported by the oper- 
 ators, and the case as it actually ex- 
 ists. I want to say here that if they 
 want ' to continue this committee, and 
 give me time to return to Sherrard and 
 come back here again, I can bring a 
 number of statements that are far 
 worse than the ones I have In my pos- 
 session. As to getting at the exact 
 amount of money earned by the min- 
 ers, by the operators' ooks, or the 
 number of days, I say it is impossible, 
 for this reason: When a man goes 
 down in the mine at Sherrard, if he has 
 a bad place, and he works eight hours 
 at the place, and doesn't load any 
 coal, he Is marked absent from 
 the mine. If he goes down in a mine 
 and loads one ton of coal, he is mark- 
 ed absent. In view of this fact I want 
 to say here now, it is impossible to ar- 
 rive at a correct conclusion as to the 
 actual amount of money earned per 
 day by the men of that place. But I 
 can produce a number of statements, 
 if they wish to give me the time, from 
 other men that are far worse than the 
 ones I have here. There wasn't any 
 intent on my part to show that I had 
 not received a day's wage, while I 
 didn't; it was simply to show the differ- 
 ence between the seam as It is report- 
 ed and as it reaJly is, in that place. 
 
 MR. NEWS AM: — I am very sorry 
 to see this low coal come in this ques- 
 tion again before the state. I thought 
 we had threshed that thing over two 
 years ago, right to the bottom notch, 
 especially with G-ilohrist and Sherrard. 
 I do not believe that there was ai place 
 that was not threshed over in the state 
 of Illinois at that time. The miners 
 came in from both places, and they 
 made their statements oii that coal, 
 and it varied all the way from 2 feet 
 and a half to 4 feet, and I think some 
 places there were as high as 5 feet. The 
 scale was made on those coals. I do 
 not believe any man ought to go in- 
 to a place, as is spoken of, sometimes, 
 in 2 feet of coal, 18 inches, etc., and do 
 that and expect to make a day wage. 
 I do not believe it is the operators' in- 
 tention from those places. I haven't 
 seen it. I do not think, though, that 
 after we have made a a scale on 5 feet" 
 of coal, or 4 feet, or 3 feet, that this is 
 the place to come again and want to 
 place another scale on it, and I do not 
 believe this is the place to bring it up. 
 I have often stated here when we' have 
 
 made those scales, for instance, take 
 our own district, our No. 5 seam, I 
 would like to see any man get up on 
 this floor and tell m© the coal waa bas- 
 ed on any height. If it was, I would 
 have got to come in and ask for a re- 
 duction on that coal. I think it's a 
 matter, as Mr. Shuler states, that 
 everybody has been paid and satis- 
 fied, and I do not believe that low coal 
 is a question that should come here at 
 all. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:- It seems to me 
 this committee ought to be able to 
 reach some kind of a satisfactory un- 
 derstanding, even if It is--not able to 
 arrange a scale of prices for low coal. 
 They at least ought to be able to agree 
 that men will be compensated who 
 work in extremely low coal, and a sat- 
 isfactory record made of it here for 
 your guidance when you go back, and 
 I move that the matter be referred to 
 the same committee. (Seconded by 
 Mr. Newsam). 
 
 MR. SHULER:— I would like to say, 
 there isn't any use in sending this com- 
 mittee back. There isn't anything 
 here to show we have not alw^ays done 
 just as Mr. Mitchell suggests. We have 
 always satisfied every man that has 
 been working for us, and we will go on 
 record that we will do the same here- 
 after. There is a difference in men 
 earning a wage, and they ask us, if we 
 have a man in low coal, or in any oth- 
 er condition that he isn't earning a 
 sufficient wage, that we have the privi- 
 lege of talcing him out and putting an- 
 other man in there. That means we 
 would have to put a better man in 
 there, in order that he earn better 
 wages, and that wouldn't be fair, and 
 in that place we shouldn't be able to 
 get a man to work unless we pay a 
 day rate. That man would not be 
 worth a day rate. In many instances 
 we have men working for us at a day 
 rate that do not give us satisfaction, 
 and he will say he will go mining, 
 which he will do. For that reason, 
 we've got every man that wasn't able 
 to earn a day rate working as a miner. 
 To make up his deficiency we cannot 
 do that; but we are willing to make 
 up any miner that has a deflcieny of 
 any kind so he will be satisfied. 
 
 MR. ESSEX: — I cannot say, so far as 
 Mr. Shuler is concerned, what he does 
 with his men, but I am here to say 
 now for the men in the Sherrard mine, 
 if they tell us to go into a place at 2 
 feet 8 inches, and work that place, we 
 are compelled to work it, regardless of 
 what we make. We want to take a 
 stand against that. We want a wage 
 for our work, if we are compelled to 
 work that kind of a place. That is the 
 system of work there if you go in a 
 place, you are supposed to do that, and 
 you never will get a change from it. It 
 don't make any difference if you on- 
 ly get a dollar a day, you are compelled 
 to do it or leave town. If they are 
 
168 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 vsrilling to make a day rate, why should 
 they object to signing this agree- 
 ment? Why should they refuse 
 to sign this agreement that they 
 will make it up for us or give us a 
 better place? That is fair. We do not 
 propose to go back that way or be 
 compelled to pick up our furniture and 
 move our families some place else, I 
 can bring evidence here of not less than 
 25 men this winter that had to move 
 out of that place because they were 
 compelled to work in a place where 
 they could not make wages, not saying 
 anything about Mr. Shuler. I da not 
 know anything about his place. 
 
 MR. MILLER:— Mr. Shuler says that 
 he has tried to make it satisfactory be- 
 tween the miners and the company. 
 Now, I will state I worked in one of 
 those deficient places, I was in that 
 place about two months before I got a 
 change and I received one keg of pow- 
 der. I want to know if he considers 
 that ample for working that length of 
 time in one of those deficient places? 
 
 MR. SHULER:— The gentleman does 
 not state what kind of a place he was 
 working at. I will ask him to say what 
 he earned while he was working in that 
 place? 
 
 MR. MILLER:— I will tell you as far 
 as possible what I earned. Before 
 reaching this low and deficient work, 
 as I consider it, I had possibly 40 tons 
 of coal lying in my room on account of 
 the turn running slow. When I reached 
 this deficient work, I naturally had 
 some ooal to draw on in case I would 
 lose the turn and I used it all up, and 
 I happened to get a change out. I used 
 it up, but my expenses for powder and 
 everything was going on just the same. 
 I had it cm account of the turn running 
 slow. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— He hasn't stated 
 what he earned, or what the deficiencies 
 was. He could not have been in a 
 very deficient place if he was able to 
 accumulate 40 tons of coal in it during 
 this time in order to help him over it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think Mr. Miller 
 . made a very plain statement in re- 
 gard to that matter that he had this 
 coal accumulated before this while the 
 place was a fair place before he came 
 to the low coal on account of the turn 
 running slow, and in going through a 
 part of this low place he sent out all 
 the coal he had accumulated in his 
 room. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— What time was 
 this? I do not know of any time of 
 the turn running slow. 
 
 MR. MILLER:— Tou do not know 
 what time the turn run slow? 
 
 MR. SHULER:— No. 
 
 MR. MILLER:— Tou take it all 
 through and through the summer 
 months, the trun runs slow. That's 
 how we accumulate this coal. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— I wish you would 
 specify so I could get at this, to know 
 what you did in that place, so I can 
 
 get evidence to off-set it. That's all 
 I want. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say to both 
 Mr. Shuler and Mr. Miller, that the 
 question of the turn running slow or 
 fast is not before this committee at 
 this time. Just cut that out. 
 
 MR. MILLER:- What I want to im- 
 press upon this committee is this: When 
 a person is in a fair place they natur- 
 ally let the loose coal lay along the 
 rib, in order to be in position to load 
 it. Now, that is just the way I was 
 situated when I come to this low coal, 
 and that coal was all used up in going 
 through this which I never got through 
 but I was lucky enough to get a change 
 out. 
 
 MR. SHULER:— Are there any oth- 
 er cases that you know of? 
 
 MR. MILLER: — I can cite you a good 
 many cases in that mine of yours, 
 where a man could not make enoush 
 to— ' 
 
 MR. SHULER:— Are the men work- 
 ing there now? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Now drop this discus- 
 sion. The question before the commit- 
 tee is tOi re- refer. You can argue this 
 after you go back into the committee. 
 
 MR. CABLE: — In view of what you 
 have just said I may be out of order, 
 but I think not. It seems to me if these 
 charges are to be made against Mr. 
 Shuler, or against our company, then 
 the person making the charges should 
 be more specific, and instead of saying 
 he would go into a place where he 
 did not make a living, I think if he was 
 in low coal, or had something he thinks 
 was deficient, he should state when 
 and where he had it, and at what time. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— It's more evident 
 than ever this matter ought to be re- 
 ferred back to the committee. There is 
 a lot of ground we have not been over. 
 Mr. Armstrong says they are required 
 to drive a room and draw the pillai 
 back, regardless of how low the coal 
 is, before they can have a, change. Are 
 you paid anything extra for that? 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— No. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I would like to ask if 
 that's in accordance with the agreg!- 
 ment reached by Mr. Justi, Mr. Russell 
 and I believe Mr. Ryan, and yourself. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— Mr. Essex said in 
 Sherrard the men are required in low 
 coal to drive -the room and draw the 
 pillar back, before being given a 
 change of rooms, and he is not paid 
 anything for that work in addition to 
 the regular price. You have an agree- 
 ment there which requires that a suit- 
 able arrangement will be made for the 
 payment of deficient work. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I will say this: I 
 think I am correct in saying he is ex- 
 pected to drive the room up and draw 
 the pillar back, but I think that the 
 gentlemen Is mistaJken when he says he 
 is not properly compensated for it and 
 that's why I am asking tO' have him 
 show us a case where he is not. We 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 169 
 
 have all of our records here and can 
 substantiate and show what any maji 
 has drawn who claims he hasn't drawn 
 enough or hasn't gotten anything out 
 of his place. It's only a matter of a 
 few minutes to look up any case that 
 may be presented and I'll say this, 
 gentlemen, in regard to referring that 
 to a. special committee again, as far as 
 I am concerned, — we are willing to do 
 any work this committee thinks best 
 to do, and do it as they see fit, but I 
 do think It's desirable that the work" 
 be done at a place where a record can 
 be made of it, and where a man cites 
 a case which he thinks he or some oth- 
 er miner has been unjustly treated, I 
 think there should be some record 
 made of It, for his benefit, as well as 
 the operators'. 
 
 MRl RYAN: — Do not discuss the con- 
 ditions at these mines any more. The 
 motion is to re-refer this matter to tlie 
 committee. If it's going to go back, 
 then the same committee will go back 
 and take the matter up. If you desire 
 to have a record of It, our stenographer 
 is over at the Fey hotel, and she will 
 go and attend your meeting and keep 
 a record of it. The vote will be taken 
 on the motion. 
 
 , MR. MITCHEILiL:— I would suggest 
 that the committee be Increased by 
 adding an officer from the operators' 
 organization and an officer from the 
 miners' organization. I will suggest 
 that Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Justi act 
 on that committee. They are familiar 
 with considerable of the work loivn 
 there, and will no doubt be able to help 
 each side get together. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If there are no objec- 
 tions, the two gentlemen named will be 
 included In the committee. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and it was 
 carried) . 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— The committee 
 sent out for the No. 6 seam in the 
 Eighth scale district Is unable to agree. 
 MR. PICTON:— I move that we refer 
 the sixth seam to a committee' compos- 
 ed of Mr. Justi and two operators and 
 Mr. Russell and two miners, for in- 
 vestigation and to make a scale. 
 MR. RYAN:— Prior to what time? 
 MR. PICTON:— Prior to May 1st. 
 They are working the seam at the 
 present time and getting along all 
 right, and I think we could get at It 
 better if these parties go and thorough- 
 ly Investigate the seam and give us a 
 reasonable rate. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Would you Include 
 in that motion that they shall contin- 
 ue to work at the present price until 
 the investigation is made? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Yes, that they shall 
 continue to work at the present rate 
 until the investigation is satisfactory. 
 MR. OS'BORN:— X was going to state 
 that possibly it would be well to in- 
 clude, that if this committee did agree 
 that it be considered a part of the pro- 
 ceedings of this committee. 
 
 SIR. RYAN: — ^AU of those agreements 
 reached through committees of that 
 kind become a part of the agreement. 
 
 (On the motion 'the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and It was 
 carried). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Doesn't the experience 
 of the last year, with commissions 
 equally constituted, to settle scale con- 
 tentions, make It desirable for us to 
 provide for some means to overcome a 
 tie vote, by providing for a seventh 
 man being selected, or something of 
 that kind. Both sides desire to have 
 this question settled. 
 
 MR. SMITH:— As far as the Morris 
 matter Is concerned, we disagreed en- 
 tirely, and as far as Seneca matter is 
 concerned, we disagreed, but we are 
 perfectly willing on our side to do this. 
 It seems the evidence that we have on 
 our side from the Morris men, the 
 statements are not correct that they 
 sent; our committee sent them to us. 
 I made this proposition, that I was per- 
 fectly* willing to go to Morris today or 
 tomorrow or Sunday, or any other day 
 as soon as possible, to discover wheth- 
 er our committee had reported the mat- 
 ter over there accurately or not. That 
 is as far as the Morris business is con- 
 cerned. In regard to Seneca matter, 
 Mr. Tattersall made a statement of how 
 the dollar a ton was established there 
 some year and a half ago. It was by 
 the business men and men disinterest- 
 ed on both sides, and in the absence of 
 knowing anything about the conditions 
 changing In Seneca, I told them very 
 frankly I was not going to agree to 
 disturb that rate, until I knew some- 
 thing more about the conditions at 
 Seneca. 
 
 MR. WYLIE: — I will say In behalf of 
 the operators, Mr. Letlsoe and Mr. Tat- 
 tersall, that they proposed to pay for 
 the deficiency work, bringing the wage 
 scale practically up to the Wilmington 
 basis, by paying for the deficiency 
 work. They also stated on the dollar 
 rate they would have toi close their 
 mines; they could not operate their 
 mines on a competitive basis on the 
 dollar rate. At Morris we were ad- 
 vised that there is pending a proposi- 
 tion of putting a switch into the mine, 
 on the basis of the Wilmington rate. 
 If the Wilmington rate is not estab- 
 lished there, they will not put the 
 switch there. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say, for the 
 benefit of the committee; that we have 
 a statement here from the committee 
 of miners who Investigated the condi- 
 tions in the Morris mine, and if they 
 are all of my mind, they will never get 
 the Wilmington rate, and therefore 
 never get the switch In. They axam- 
 ined a few places and measured the 
 coal, and here is the report. In the 
 first place, there was 2 feet 4 Inches of 
 coal, with from 1 foot to 18 Inches of 
 clod. That means that from 1 foot to 
 18 Inches of clod comes up with the 
 
170 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 coal, and the miners have all that dirt 
 to handle. The next place, a little 
 larger or about the same, the condi- 
 tions are about the same. The third, 
 the coal is 2 feet on one side and 18 
 Inches on the other, with 8 or 10 inches 
 of clod. The next place is about the 
 same. The next place there is not a 
 foot of coal. In the next two places, 
 it is not fit for a man to work in. 
 
 MR. 'WTLIE:— It developed in the 
 course of our discussion, that the man 
 that ' wrote that communication was 
 earning from $15 to $19.65 a week. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— Was that on mining 
 the coal, or was a part of it made up 
 to him in extras? 
 
 MR. WTLIE:— It was our under- 
 standing he earned it in mining coal, 
 but I may be wrong about that. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Mr. Wylie in his 
 reply to that ijuestion is incorrect. It 
 was partially through his earnings in 
 the coal mine and partially through 
 compensart^ion allowed foir deficient 
 work, allowed him on the coal, in addi- 
 tion to what he s'Ot for the coal, mak- 
 ing a total something in the neighbor- 
 hood of $20 a week. Mr. Smith in dis- 
 cussing the question with us, especially 
 in regard to Seneca, stated as he has 
 stated here, that he was not familiar 
 with conditions at Seneca, and that he 
 would therefore decline to consider 
 anything but the existing rate. It was 
 admitted by the operator there that 
 the present rate was settled by arbitra- 
 tion committee. It is possibly true that 
 the miners are satisfied with the pres- 
 ent rate, and also that the business 
 men are satisfied with the price being 
 charged them for coal, but the operator, 
 Mr. Tattersall, says that the rate is 
 such that he is unable to earn any 
 profit on the business; that it is so 
 high that it prohibits him from ship- 
 ping by rail, and that he Is compelled 
 to pay a rental to the railroad com- 
 pany of something like $102 a year for 
 the track connections to the mine. 
 
 Mr. Lettsam in regard to the Morris 
 mine, disputes the statement made by 
 the miners' committee, regarding the 
 existing conditions in the mine. He 
 maintains that the coal will average 
 some two feet six inches in height, 
 and says that they are willing to, and 
 expect to, and do at this time, pay for 
 the deficient work. Willing to pay 
 everything that is necessary to enable 
 a man to earn a fair day's wage, and 
 as Mr. Wylie has stated, Mr. Bowen 
 stated to me last week that the con- 
 tention raised by Mr. Smith was that 
 they were, for one reason, not entitled 
 to a lower mining rate, owing to the 
 fact that they were not a shipping 
 mine. The negotiations for the track 
 connection have reached a point where 
 it is only a question of his being al- 
 lowed a rate which will enable him to 
 dompete with other shipping mines, 
 and if he is they will put a track in. 
 He further states that if the present 
 
 rate continues, they cannot afford to 
 operate the mine and will not operate 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — One peculiar 
 thing about all these meetings, where 
 miners' committees, and mine super- 
 intendents or mine owners each make 
 measurements of the thickness of these 
 coal veins, la th^-t I have never known 
 one case yet where they were able to 
 agree as to the thickness of a vein. I 
 am of the opinion that the time has 
 come when each side should be abso- 
 lutely honest with the other in deter- 
 mining questions of this kind. There 
 is no reason in the world why they 
 cannot measure a vein of coal accur- 
 ately and bring in a truthful report as 
 to the thickness of the vein, or thick- 
 ness of the clod. This is a case this 
 committee cannot pass upon. We can- 
 not pass upon it, with the information 
 we have here. "The miners say a vein 
 Is from 16 to 20 inches thick, the oper- 
 ators say it averages two feet and a 
 half. How can this committee deter- 
 mine which is right? This matter 
 ought to be referred to a committee to 
 make investigation and determine what 
 those prices should be. I move that 
 this matter be referred to Mr. Russell 
 and Mr. Justi, two operators and two 
 miners, to investigate and fix a per- 
 manent rate for Morris and Seneca. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,:— I wish to say, I am 
 heartily in favor of the motion. I 
 have been up to Morris and made a 
 temporary scale, or helped to make one 
 for Morris. At Seneca and Marseilles 
 last year we failed to agree, and the op- 
 erators at that time left Chicago, claim- 
 ing that they could not operate the 
 mines, and were going home to close 
 them down. Now, the mines have run 
 during the past year. As Mr. Mitchell 
 says, I do not believe there is evidence 
 enough before this committee to act 
 upon either Morris or Seneca. I know 
 Mr. Smith has not been to Seneca for a 
 year. There has been no necessity for 
 him going there. The price was estab- 
 lished by arbitrtation, by the business 
 men of the city, and I think that this 
 is the only way it can be gotten at, 
 is to have our committee go there and 
 make a thorough investigation, go into 
 the mine and make their own measure- 
 ments and then establish the rates, no 
 matter whether it's against the miner 
 or the operator. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I believe Mr. Russell 
 will agree with me that he is not ex- 
 actly correct, when I tell him we did 
 not consider Marseilles and Seneca, 
 only Marseilles. Seneca had been re- 
 ferred to us, but the miners and opera- 
 tors and people of Seneca had arranged 
 the matter before we arrived. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That's true. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I think the 
 officers of both organizations ought to 
 take a very good lesson from the evi- 
 dence that has been produced here,, 
 regarding the difference in measure- 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 171 
 
 ments brought In here by both sides. 
 It's all for the want ,of method, Mr 
 Chairman, In this: That each side goes 
 into the mine, independently, maJies a 
 measurement, and they bring in inde- 
 pendent statements. "What should be 
 done at all times is that the operator, 
 either through his superintendent or 
 a committee representing him, and the 
 same number of miners, should jplntly 
 go in, make the measurements, and 
 then sign a statement. Then we would 
 have it all right, but the trouble comes 
 from the miners going in and taking 
 the measurements, then the operator 
 goes in and lie takes measurements. 
 Neither one knows what the other has 
 done until they come into this commit- 
 tee room, and then we find them so 
 wide apart that nobody can understand 
 who Is right. It is certainly about 
 time we took a sood lesson from this, 
 and hereafter whenever any measure- 
 ments are to be taken, it should be 
 done jointly, and the statement should 
 be signed, and then we would know 
 just exactly what it is. 
 
 MR. WYLIE:— I think it will be con- 
 ceded by the miners that we meet in 
 our committees, that we desire to act 
 fairly. Now, by reducing this rate 
 down to the 'Wilmington scale, it brings 
 us into direct competition with the 
 mines on the Rock Island road. We 
 want to be fair toward the miner, and 
 give him all he can earn at Morris and 
 Seneca. I say this in my own justifi- 
 cation. 
 
 MR. SMITH:— I want to state, as 
 far as we are concerned, that we are 
 perfectly willing, and I so stated to Mr. 
 Bowen when he was here last week, 
 and I stated to' him going up on the 
 train — I says, "Now, Mr. Bowen, I am 
 perfectly willing to make this proposi- 
 tion: If you will agree with me — I'm 
 going to be at home Sunday," and I 
 says, "I'm willing to 3rive from our 
 place over to your place and we wilt 
 go down to the mine" and have a look 
 at it, so we will be able to understand 
 the situation when it comes before the 
 committee." He made no answer to it. 
 There was no way for me to find out 
 just what the Morris mine was like 
 only to communicate with our local offi- 
 cers there, and, of course, this is the 
 statement they have sent. And I want 
 to say, that as far as myself and the 
 rest of them are concerned, we want 
 to be understood we want to be fair 
 in both matters, but as the statement 
 was made by the other side that the 
 statements from our committee were in- 
 correct we certainly have as much right 
 to believe our side of it as we have 
 theirs, and we are also willing now that 
 this motion shall be adopted, and both 
 sides have a fair settlement. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— Did you say 
 you desired to gO' tO' the mine on Sun- 
 day, to make this investigation, with 
 the operator? 
 
 MR. SMITH: — I made that proposi- 
 tion to Mr. Bowen because I felt from 
 
 what I Jinow of the mine, that it would 
 be nothing but fair to this committee 
 to know just exactly what the status — 
 
 MR. BENT:— In voting to refer any 
 scale in dispute to a special commit- 
 tee, the operators do it on the under- 
 standing it is not in order to deadlock 
 anything, or to preserve the statu quo, 
 but to work justice, whatever change 
 it may mean, up or down. And we be- 
 lieve that if these things are taken 
 up in that spirit, the things in conten- 
 tion should be disponed of harmonious- 
 ly and justly. We would like to have 
 the motion amended so as to prescribe 
 a limit of May 1st, as in the othe.- 
 case, and then we are prepared to vote. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— W^e are perfectly 
 satisfied. I want to say the miners, 
 no less than operators, are desirous of 
 having these matters settled. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- May first will be ini 
 eluded in the motion ito settle the. Mor- 
 ris and Setieca maJtter. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 Aye, he miners voted Aye, and it 
 was carried) 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The motion, or 
 resolution, reads, as I understand it: 
 Rate for Morris and Seneca is referred 
 to committee composed of Commission- 
 er Justl and two operators. President 
 Russell and two miners, to fix mining 
 prices, which shall become a part of 
 this contract; the same to be consider- 
 ed before May 1st, 1902. 
 
 The secretary read the sixth clause 
 of the present contract. ^ 
 
 MR. bent: — The special committeei 
 to which this question was referred, 
 reported a hearty agreement as to the 
 purpose, that of securing clean coal by 
 securing the co-operation and interest 
 of the good, conservative men, who are 
 in the overwhelming majority in most 
 mines. The question that troubled the 
 committee is purely one of procedure, 
 as to how *to secure the clean coal, 
 how to secure the morail support of 
 the men at the mines — of the men who 
 are equally interested with the opera- 
 tors In putting merchantable coal upon 
 the market, and how to do justice to 
 the operator in not having him pay for 
 what is not coal. The committee con- 
 sidered it inexpedient to attempt to 
 even discuss the method to be pursued, 
 when so many different views in regard 
 to the subject prevail. We felt it ought 
 to, be discussed in full committee, and 
 after a full discussion, then submit it 
 to the committee, who could avail it- 
 self of the suggestions here. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think that Mr. 
 Perry, in speaking on the subject the 
 other day, struck the key note of the 
 entire situation, when he said that the 
 infliction of severe penalties for load- 
 ing impure coal is not the best method 
 toi secure a better grade of coal. I 
 am of the opinion that the severity 
 of the penalty in the present agree- 
 ment, has not been conducive to the 
 best interests of either the miners or 
 the operators, because it has impressed 
 
172 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 the miners with the idea that they have 
 been convicted of negligence, careless- 
 ness or even maliciously destroying the 
 product of the mine. Now, I think 
 that an agreement, or a clause that will 
 appeal to the fairness of the miners, 
 and provide suitable punishment for 
 that small number of miners who are 
 unfair, would be the best course for 
 us to pursue. I think you know the 
 miners who are here, and the ofHcers 
 of the organization, are as desirious 
 as you are to give you the very best 
 marketable coal that is possible — that 
 is consistent with good workmanship 
 and practical skilled mining. But how 
 to secure that is the question. Now, 
 the experience of the last year has 
 satisfied me, at least, that the severity 
 of our penalty has not helped to get 
 better coal. I believe that if your coal 
 has been better this past year, and I 
 was in hopes it had, it has been be- 
 cause of the appeals made by the .offi- 
 cers of our organization to the men, 
 pointing out to them the fact that if 
 they hoped to extend our run-of-mine 
 into other states, that we must get 
 our argument in Illinois. That we 
 must be able to go to our national 
 conventions with the support of the 
 Illinois operators, and we hoped to se- 
 cure that support by giving you as 
 high a grade of coal, under a run-of- 
 mine system, as we gave you under the 
 screened coal system. I wamt to say 
 that I am perfectly sincere and honest 
 in saying I do not know one reason 
 in the world why as high or even a 
 better grade of coal cannot be secured 
 on a run-of-mine system as could be 
 secured on the double standard, both 
 as to the purity of the coal and the 
 percentage of lump. Now, I think what 
 we ought to do is to get our heads to- 
 gether and try to reach some agree- 
 ment here that will provide sufficient 
 punishment for the careless or the few 
 malicious, but still hold out some en- 
 couragement to the great mass of the 
 miners who want to do what is right. 
 
 MK-. BENT: — I think the committee 
 felt that Mr. Perry struck the keynote 
 of the thing the other day. I am 
 pretty sure that while his ideas were 
 chaotic as to procedure, as were the 
 ideas of the rest of the committee, 
 that he Is on the right track, and 
 for that reason I regret his absence 
 when this matter goes to a committee 
 again. Mr. Perry's criticism of the 
 present contract was not in the severity 
 of the punishment by suspension or 
 discharge; he thought that cases of 
 extreme negligence or wilfulness ought 
 to be dealt with forthwith in that 
 manner. But he did feel that the fining 
 provisions of this clause in the present 
 contract were somewhat too large and 
 tended to create the wrong sentiment 
 at the mines. The contract we are now 
 working under provides for $1 for the 
 first offense. Now, the committee will 
 notice that in the present contract and 
 in the resolution that the operators pre- 
 
 sented, the fining at all is menely an 
 option. That plan was hit upon in a 
 sub-committee in which Mr. Morris and 
 I acted a year ago, on account of the 
 difference of opinion in different parts 
 of the state and between different 
 mines, as to whether fines or suspen- 
 sions were better to reach the desired 
 result. I think that the majority of 
 the operators find that the plan of sus- 
 pension is most efficacious, because a 
 man who is not discharged but idle, 
 is an object lesson that more men know 
 about, than the man who is fined, and 
 it isn't the Individual that we want to 
 reach, but the body of the men; these 
 are purely examples. It seems to me it 
 is well to leave in (and I think Mr. 
 Perry said so, too), the option of fines 
 instead of suspensions and discharges, 
 and if a wise plan could be arrived at 
 I do not believe that there is any ob- 
 jection to having the fines a little less. 
 Mr. Perry thought that 75 cents for 
 the first offense. Instead of $1, but leav- 
 ing the penalties for the second ana 
 third offenses as heavy as at present, 
 would be better than the present con- 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It is needless to say 
 that the operators in this matter desire 
 only clean coal, and want to adopt a 
 method that will produce that result. 
 The system In vogue year before last 
 had not proven satisfactory, and the 
 agreement last year was adopted In 
 the hope that it might cure the evil 
 from which we were suffering. I agree 
 with Mr. Mitchell in what he says 
 about the heavy fines apparently preju- 
 dicing the men against the system. 
 Now, our men at Virden especially, we 
 have had more trouble with the last 
 year than we ever had, on this fine 
 business, and we have found that they 
 have apparently taken up the side of 
 the miner who loads dirty coal. Now, 
 it has been a source of a good deal of 
 wonderment to me, why that should be, 
 because it looks to me that the man 
 who loads dirty coal Is the enemy of 
 both sides. I am at a loss to know 
 whether the particular system Is to 
 blame, or whether the men are grad- 
 ually getting imbued with the Idea that 
 anything is coal that comes out of the 
 mine. At any rate, we have had more 
 trouble the last year than we ever had 
 on that score. 
 
 Now, a word as to what Mr. Mit- 
 chell said about the mine-run. We 
 find that in every one- of our mines, 
 the proportion of fine coal is increas- 
 ing, and Increasing rapidly; that the 
 amount of coal produced with a keg 
 of powder is decreasing, and decreasing 
 very rapidly, showing that the miners 
 are using more and more powder all 
 the time, and making an effort to 
 make powder do the work Instead ol 
 doing it with the pick. That's a matter 
 that will come up later, so I will not 
 say anything more on that subject. 
 But it seems to me that If we could 
 get a lower fine that will accomplish 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 173 
 
 results, that the operators would favor 
 it. All we want is the rlgrht result, 
 and the matter of the size of the fine 
 is Immaterial. I might say that the 
 operators, as far as I know, all feel 
 that the miners should pay for the im- 
 purities that are thrown out with the 
 coal. It should be Charged into the 
 fund that these fines are turned into, 
 and we believe that that will help us 
 to get the conservative element on our 
 side, and reduce the amount of impuri- 
 ties to the minimum. If the man that 
 sends out dirty coal is fined for it, 
 that fine should go to help the opera- 
 tor pay for the impurities that he 
 throws out of the coal. Take In our 
 case; we cart out tons of that stuff a 
 day, where the miner is not fined at all, 
 and in some cases where he is fined, 
 but there is no reason why the coal 
 company should pay for hundreds of 
 tons of that stuff per month, where 
 by the contract the miner is obligated to 
 take it out and not send it out in his 
 coal. They agree to give us clean coal, 
 and they should live up to the agree- 
 ment in that respect. If they do not, 
 they certainly should not object to 
 the operator getting his pay for the 
 dirt that he has to pay the miner for. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— This dirty coal 
 question is a very serious question, 
 both for the miners of the state of Illi- 
 nois, and for the operators. I was in 
 hopes, one year ago, when we made 
 our agreements, and when the fines 
 were put in, that it might have some 
 effect, but I must say as far as my 
 mine is concerned, it has been no bet- 
 ter. It shows very plainly at the mines 
 where we load box cars with a box 
 car loader, and where we load box 
 cars by hand, that there is some men 
 in the mines that will take advantage 
 of everything they can. I do not think 
 for a moment, and I do not want this 
 committee to think for a moment, that 
 the miners are all built up that way, 
 because they are not, but I have one 
 mine especially, to show the facts, that 
 loads a little over 90 per cent box cars, 
 and it is loaded with a steam shovel. 
 That mine is really the cleanest coal 
 I have got. That is called the cleanest 
 coal that I have got. Yet I am very 
 often called in the northwest for five 
 or ten cars, one car or two cars here, 
 a hundred miles apart, to go and ex- 
 amine that coal. It is refused and at 
 my disposal. By the time I get "there, 
 the demurrage is probably four or five 
 dollars on a car of coal. Tou are all 
 aware, gentlemen, it takes some time 
 for a letter to come from the north- 
 west and the operator to get there. 
 Now, I want to say that that very 
 same mine last year, the losses that 1 
 had on the bad coal, dirty coal, that 
 I lost, and the demurrage, amounted 
 to a cent and a quarter per ton through 
 the year. A cent and a quarter, never 
 saying anything about my expenses in 
 going UP there. Now, this is not to 
 the good miner's good name in the 
 
 state of Illinois. I take one of my 
 other mines, that is loading box cars 
 almost entirely, that is put back by the 
 men by hand, and that runs a little 
 less than one-half cent. Now, I only 
 want to show you, gentlemen, to be 
 frank all around, that there is some- 
 thing wrong in that line. I want to 
 say further that in that same mine I 
 am loading open cars, and have trim- 
 mers there, and I have very good coal 
 in those open cars. Now, I want to 
 make this point, that it doesn't seem 
 to me our fines have really been what 
 they ought to be. We must find some 
 other system, if possible. "We must be 
 honest about it, all sides, because If 
 we must hold our mine-run system In 
 the state of Illinois, as I have heard 
 the national president often say, and I 
 believe he is honest when he la say- 
 ing it, that we must produce as good a 
 grade of coal as we did' before the 
 mine-run system came in use, and if 
 anything for the practical miners' good, 
 a better grade of coal. I want toi see 
 a miner be a miner. I did not think 
 I would bring up this when I came, 
 but Mr. Mitchell's remarks and Mr. 
 Lukens' remarks, really caused me to 
 bring it -up, and I think for the good 
 of every good miner It should come 
 up. I have never been in favor of 
 docking. I have always been a poor 
 docker. I have always been a pool 
 finer. I have always said when a man 
 would not do right he ought not to 
 belong to your organization. He isn't 
 a union man. H^ cannot be. It's im- 
 possible. On the other hand in my 
 opinion I have made but very few fines, 
 except the check weighman on top has 
 said fine him. I can't stand it. I would 
 rather discharge him or get him to go 
 away from me. I have been a union 
 man a great many years. I have been 
 on both sides. I want to say that 
 union don't mean bad la,bor. Far 
 from it. Union, in my opinion, means 
 to make a better grade of men. I 
 believe that's the intention. A better 
 class of workers. If it doesn't what 
 does it mean? If scab labor is going 
 to be better than Union labor, then 
 we had better drop the union labor and 
 take the other kind. Now, every time 
 you make a bad grade of coal, the 
 worst grade of coal, you hurt youi 
 organi2!ation. Tou depreciate that 
 grade of coal. Tou depreciate the 
 man's good name that made it, if he 
 had any. I want to make a statement 
 here tO' show you that, in my opinion, 
 every time you depreciate the product, 
 you must depreciate your price in time. 
 It must come to you, sooner or later: 
 it's got . to come. I want 'to say if 
 Mr. Hefti had five acres of potatoes 
 to dig, and he dug that five acres of 
 potatoes by scab labor, and Mr. Mit- 
 chell had five acres of potatoes and he 
 dug them with union labor, and if 
 Mr. Hefti's potatoes were dug all nice 
 and good, and put into a box car, and 
 fetched their worth in the market on 
 
174 
 
 Morning Session, March 7 
 
 good potatoes — and they would fetch 
 no more, and if Mr. Mitchell, with his 
 union labor, a man took his fork and 
 cut them all to pieces and chopped 
 them all up, and he put them in the 
 market, with his uniooti labor, they 
 would not fetch as much by 30 cents a 
 bushel, and he would say to that man 
 that was digging his potatoes, "I can- 
 not meet the scab labor. You have re- 
 duced the price of our product. Tou 
 have spoiled it for me." If Mr. Pic- 
 ton's wife was to go to the store to 
 buy some potatoes, and she bought 
 some of those union potatoes, that 
 were all chopped to pieces that Mr. Mit- 
 chell's union man had dug, and she 
 brought them in the house and they 
 were all in halves, he would say, 
 "Where did you get those potatoes?" 
 "Well, I got them from that union 
 store. They were dug by Mitchell's 
 union man.'' "Well," he would say, 
 "I don't want any more union potatoes, 
 then. You must get scab potatoes.'' 
 Now, that's the rule over and over. 
 You cannot get away from it, and I 
 want to^ see the miner in Illionis be as 
 good a miner as any miner, in the east 
 or any other place, and I want myself 
 to see some rule that we ean_ get good 
 clean coal from your mine-run, or we 
 had better shut up our mine-run and 
 say that scab labor is better than union 
 labor. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — Instructions are desir- 
 ed in regard to the Pekln matter. There 
 seems tO' be a misunderstanding as to 
 whether the committee Of one miner 
 and one operator to Sonsider the scale 
 of the Pekin matter, are to investigate 
 the matter immediately and report, or 
 whether they are to investigate the 
 matter and report at some future time 
 and let the rate agreed upon be made a 
 part of the state agreement. I mysell 
 am under the impression that the mat- 
 ter was to be considered immediatelj 
 by one miner and one operator and 
 they were to report to this scale com- 
 mittee. Mr. Picton is under the im- 
 pression that they were to be given 
 time tO' go and investigate conditions 
 at Pekin. The fact is that practically 
 the only question to be determined is 
 one of competitive conditions. I am 
 under the imrpession that if Mr. Pic- 
 ton, who has been selected by the min- 
 ers, and Mr. Wantling, who has been 
 selected by the operators, will take this 
 matter up immediately, if Mr. Picton 
 is excused from other duties until he 
 can take it up and consider it, the 
 matter can be settled. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think the fact that 
 the scale committee made a provision 
 for a 60-cent rate pending adjustment, 
 would indicate that It was not expect- 
 ed the investigation and award would 
 be made until after the expiration of 
 the present scale. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Was that the record, 
 Mr. Secretary? 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— They simply re- 
 adopted the clause in last year's agree- 
 
 ment which will provide that the 60- 
 cent rate is to continue for 90 days 
 from April 1st, etc., with the further 
 provision that the Pekin operators and 
 delegates will determine by what 
 method the re-adjustment shall be con- 
 sidered. It was expected that th€y 
 would get together and provide some 
 method to carry that out. Whether it 
 was to be made a part of the a.gree- 
 ment, or whether it will have to be 
 done after this convention adjourns, 
 was a matter not passed upon. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The statement made 
 by Mr. Scroggs is correct, and if you 
 will look over the records you will find 
 that I suggested to the Pekin miners 
 and operators to find out the date on 
 which the investigation would take 
 place, and they should have • 90 days 
 at the present price, in which to make 
 the investigation. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY: — Mr. Lukens 
 stated some few moments ago that he 
 had considerable trouble with the dock- 
 ing system in Virden last' year. This 
 I would have to agree to, but it was 
 on the system that he docked. Now 
 at that time the scales was In the 
 bottom, and we understood that before 
 a car could be docked the weighman 
 and check weighman's attention should 
 be called to the same and see whether 
 such a car was justified in being docked 
 or not. I know myself that in no case, 
 with the exception of one or two, where 
 this system has been in vogue, was the 
 check weighman or the weighman 
 called up on any docks consequently 
 there was no attention paid to any 
 docks, only docks the check weighman's 
 attention was called to, and there was 
 considerable wrangling over it. Now, 
 since the Chicago & Virden Coal com- 
 pany has put in these shaker screens 
 and have their scales on top, and have 
 adopted a system, and they take all the 
 dirt that comes out of these cars that 
 is considered to be docked, and then 
 the weighman and check weighman 
 agree on it anff eventually do away 
 with with any trouble. I heard Mr. 
 Watson, our check weighman, say 
 there has been less docks since that 
 system was adopted.' 
 
 Now, in alluding to dirty coal in the 
 Chicago & Virden mine at Virden, our 
 attention was called by Mr. Lukens 
 several times while I was on the pit 
 committee in regard to this dirty coal. 
 We used all honest and honorable 
 means with the men to load clean coal, 
 but Virden is like all the other mines 
 in the country. We have men there 
 that would do almost anything, some 
 of them, with very rare exceptions, 
 that you can hardly do anything with. 
 We endeavor toi get tthese men to send 
 clean coal up. There was a good deal 
 of dirty coal went out of the mine 
 at Virden — the Chicago & Virden com- 
 pany's mine at Virden, and here is the 
 way this coal is loaded. I helped to 
 load some of this coal myself, some 
 of this dirty coal. I will tell you how 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 7. 
 
 175 
 
 we did it. I have been working in 
 that mine, night work, company work, 
 for the last year — about a year — and 
 when there is timbering to do and 
 other work in the bottom, we generally 
 go around the road and get so many 
 checks from the night boss, we only 
 carried a shovel with us, and every- 
 thing comes in a lump. A good deal 
 of dirty coal goes up that way, be- 
 cause we never pick it out. "We never 
 carried any picksi because there is no 
 company picks. There wasn't any 
 there that I know of. There was some, 
 but they disappeared. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The coal breaJks ott of 
 the ribs? • 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— It breaks off 
 of the ribs. If there's anything to 
 throw to one side we throw it to one 
 side; if there isn't we load it all up, 
 but it is being loaded by the company 
 men, and he puts the company checks 
 on it, but here lately at Virden there 
 has been very little trouble in regard 
 to docking, and the system works fine, 
 since the scale is on top. The dirt ' is 
 piled out in piles, and if any coal comes 
 up dirty then the weigh boss and check 
 weighman decides whether it should 
 be docked or not, and there is practi- 
 cally no trouble about it. 
 
 Let me tell you another instance 
 while I was on that work at nights, 
 the other pit committeeman asked me 
 if I would come down in the morning 
 and get up on the flat, and notice if 
 this dirty coal was going out as re- 
 ported, and I come down about nine 
 o'clock that morning, and got up on 
 the flat, nobody knew my business, 
 sitting on the flat and watched the coal 
 as it come down, and I stayed there a 
 whole hour. They dumped 49 cars of 
 coal, and there wasn't a single attempt 
 to dofck one car of that 49. It was as 
 goad coal as could be expected out of 
 that vein of coal. I made the remark 
 to Mr. Bond, "Now," says I, "that's all 
 clean coal we have got this morning." 
 He says, "Delehanty, it's been remark- 
 ably clean, no mistake about it." I 
 wasn't ten minutes down off of the car, 
 I went in the blacksmith shop and 
 stayed a while, when he com^ out and 
 called me out, and there was a big lot 
 of sulphur laid to one side, and the 
 number, the check on it. He says, 
 "You were not well down from the car 
 when this come up in the car." He 
 says, "What will we do? Should the 
 man that throwed that coal up be 
 docked?" And I says, "If I was dock 
 boss I would dock him." 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty is a 
 little mistaken in his statements. He 
 says that since the weighing of the coal 
 has beeff done on top we have had no 
 trouble. I want to say that he is en- 
 tirely mistaken. While the weighing 
 was done on the bottom we had no 
 trouble, and since it's been done on 
 top we have had all the trouble. The 
 check weighman has insisted that he 
 must come down and examine each 
 
 particular dock; that when the car of 
 dirty coal comes up we stop the mine, 
 let him come downstairs, come around 
 the end of the hopper, and examine 
 the car and see whether the dock is 
 justified or not. I asked him how long 
 he thought it would take him to make 
 that trip. He said if we had no consid- 
 erable argument over it. it would prob- 
 ably take half an hour. Now, we aim 
 to hoist there about two cars a minute, 
 and you can readily see if we had to 
 lie idle whenever there was a dock, it 
 would be a very expensive operation 
 both for us and for the miners. We 
 had a case the other day where the 
 dock boss told the check Weighman he 
 had some coal out there he wanted him 
 to look at. Said the car was so dirty, 
 "I didn't have time to get it, all, but 1 
 got as much as I could." The check 
 weighman says, "I will not allow it 
 unless you get it all. You have to get 
 all the dirt out of the car or I will not 
 allow any docks." That's the kind of 
 thing we have to go up against down 
 at Virden. We took a pile of dirt out 
 of one car and took it around where 
 the pit committee could see it. It had 
 Several big chunks of clay band and 
 sulphur and a large number of small 
 pieces. The pit committee said that 
 there wasn't enough dirt In that car 
 to dock and they would not allow it 
 to be docked, and they have taken the 
 position right along that they would 
 not allow any docks unless the check 
 Weighman would come down and per- 
 sonally examine each dock. N6w, we 
 have instructed our dock boss to keep 
 on docking; that the pile of stuff be 
 marked and the check number put on 
 it, and the check weighman's attention 
 to be called to it, but they have noti- 
 fied us that they would not allow any 
 docks of that kind, and I suppose that 
 the docks that we have assessed have 
 been refunded. I do not know. 
 
 But Mr. Delehanty speaks of being 
 on the car while they hoisted 49 cars 
 of coal and they were all clean. You 
 also noticed he said the dock boss said 
 they were coming remarkably clean 
 that morning. That is about a half 
 an hour's work or less, out of the eight 
 hours -sve had. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I have to arise to 
 oppose a fine of any kind, the same as 
 I did last year. I do not believe that 
 it does any good to impose a fine upon 
 a man that would send out dirty coal. 
 Mr. Newsam and myself took that 
 stand last year. My experience on that 
 point, the fine as placed in th6 agree- 
 ment last year, proved what I said 
 before the scale committee last spring. 
 Commencing with the scale year of 
 April last, the coal company at Marlon 
 that Mr. Peabody is interested in put 
 on numbers of fines in April. The fines 
 did not seem to give them what they 
 wanted. They did not give them clean 
 ooal. Finally they wrote me a letter 
 to come down. I went down and stayed 
 one day at the mine. Since that time 
 
176 
 
 Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 I have not had any complaint from 
 that mine, and I think there have been 
 about three fines put on since. I would 
 like for more of the operators from 
 my district to be present when I make 
 that statement. I have not had any 
 complaint from any company in my 
 district only that one company. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— What did you do? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: —Practically, I 
 read them the fourth clause, never took 
 up the other one at all. 
 
 MR. SWEET:- 1 would like to have 
 you come up to our place and spend a 
 few days reading over that clause. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 do not believe 
 it does a natural born thief any good 
 to send him to jail. I am a great deal 
 like Mr. Newsam — if a man deliberate- 
 ly sends out impurities, I believe he 
 should be discharged. I never was 
 docked but one time in my life, and 
 that was 35 cents, and I want to state 
 that I quit the employ of that com- 
 pany and sued them for the 35 cents. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Did you get it? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I got it. Mr. 
 Chairman, I believe we could talk on 
 this question for two or three days, and 
 If we are going to go back with a reso- 
 lution with fines in it, we will get no 
 better results in the next year than 
 what we have in this. I think we could 
 frame a resolution that would be 
 strong enough to call the attention of 
 the good men, the men that want to be 
 honest, and drive the other fellows into 
 line. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I do not know 
 of anything that is more interesting 
 to the operators, and that should com- 
 mand the attention of the miners, more 
 than the question of clean coal. I do 
 not think our records are alone in be- 
 ing very largely filled up with com- 
 plaints from consignees of the impuri- 
 ties that are found in our product. And 
 I agree fully with Mr. Jeremiah, that 
 fines, are of no use, or little, if any. 
 Not because fines won't affect men, 
 but simply because they are not made 
 effective by the locals. I know num- 
 erous cases, and, in fact, I doubt 
 whether at one of our plants a fine 
 has ever stayed in the local treasury. 
 It's on record by a vote of its mem- 
 bers all fines have been returned. Some 
 other plan has got to be found to 
 regulate the men. And I wish to say 
 to you that I do not know how we are 
 going to accomplish it. If we seek to 
 suspend a man, it is contested with all 
 sort of threats. If we undertake 
 to discharge a man, the commit- 
 tee promptly tells us that we cannot 
 do it. I have sent to one of our mines, 
 I do not think it's an exaggeration to 
 say a hundred communications from 
 consignees, complaining of the quality 
 of coal we have shipped, and what is 
 more, they have told us plainly they 
 would not accept any more of that prod- 
 uct. In one case, of Risser & Co., Of 
 Kankakee, I sent a committee from our 
 mine No. 6 at Divernon, UD to see the 
 
 coal, with the superintendent, and they 
 admitted they never saw anything 
 worse. The senior member of the firm, 
 Mr. Risser, took this committee around 
 the town of Kankakee to the places 
 where the coal was consumed, showed 
 them the piles of impurities that had 
 been taken out of it in their own yard 
 as well as at the places where the 
 coal was being used, but still that had 
 no effect upon the miners, not a parti- 
 cle. I have a letter here from the 
 Rockford Lumber Co., of Rockford, 
 Illinois, in which they say: "For some 
 time we have endeavored to develop a 
 market for your Divernon egg coal, 
 selling it as a fancy nut," and at the 
 request of your salesman, Mr. McGee, 
 we now wish to report on the same. 
 We will merely say that if this coal 
 was properly cleaned and screened, 
 that a good market could be found 
 for it in this city, but the coal has 
 come to us in such shape that we find 
 it Impossible to continue handling it 
 under present conditions, and feeling 
 that probably an injustice is being 
 done to you by the miners, or whoever 
 is responsible for the cleaning of the 
 coal at Diyernon, we take the liberty 
 of sending you by express a few sam- 
 ples of the impurities that have been 
 found in this coal, and trust our ac- 
 tion in doing this will be taken in 
 its proper light and will be so accepted 
 by you." 
 
 I have another letter here, which says 
 that a car containing 21 tons was for- 
 warded, and Mr. as much through 
 
 curiosity as anything else, weighed 
 the sulphur which he chopped out of 
 the lumps, and found that in the 21 
 tons of coal he had purchased 1,110 
 pounds of blue bands. Some Idea of 
 the size of these slabs may be had by 
 saying that they run from one inch 
 to three inches and four inches in 
 thickness, and were used by a farmer 
 to make a floor for his barn, and the 
 farmer came back and wanted some 
 more of them, saying that when prop- " 
 erly put down and cemented they made 
 the finest barn flooring he had ever 
 seen. 
 
 I want to add to what I have said, 
 that the biggest file we have in our 
 oflices is that of complaints coming 
 to us of the dirty condition of our 
 product. I want to tell you that is not 
 from screening, for the coal passes over 
 shaker screens for the domestic mar- 
 ket and is thoroughly clean so far as 
 screenings is concerned — so far as 
 screens can do ' it. The complaints 
 come from miners putting in the blue 
 bands and loading out black jack, slate 
 and almost anything they can find 
 within reach of their shovels, and 
 something has got to be done if we 
 are going to remain on the gross 
 weight basis and und^r the domination 
 of the United Mine Workers, tn rnta- 
 pel the men to do what is honest. 
 Insofar as the cleaning of the 
 coal Is concerned, and the trouble 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 177 
 
 under which we labor, I want to 
 say that we are In an entire- 
 ly different condition to that of 
 Ohio and some of the eastern states, 
 Pennsylvania, and -erhaps Indiana 
 Under the mine-run system we are 
 compelled to pay for whatever comes 
 out. Large accumulations of fine coal 
 must necessarily follow under the 
 mine-run system unless some plan is 
 found to check it. In Ohio if they load 
 out machine cuttings it goes through 
 the screens and in that way they are 
 free fno-m all excessive percentage of 
 fine coaA such as we are subjected to, 
 and while the machine cuttings is not 
 a question before this committee here, 
 it is a part of the troubles that come 
 upon us from the run-of-mine system, 
 and I do hope that when we go to fix up 
 this sixth clause we will And some way 
 ■ by which we can regulate the men. We 
 must control them. We cannot go on 
 in this sort of way very much longer. 
 I know at our Divernon mine I am not 
 godng to be able to renew some of the 
 contracts that place has had In the 
 past year, and the chances are I shall 
 lose their business altogether. One con- 
 tract which I ouerht to have renewed, 
 and would have been able to renew if 
 the ooal had been taken from one of 
 our other plants,- I have lost, and I do 
 not suppose we will ever get it again. 
 When the committee goes to work on 
 this sixth clause, I certainly hope that 
 the feeling that has been expressed by 
 Mr. Jeremiah will find In some way, a 
 wajl' to settle It properly. 
 
 MR. RUSSEIfL:— We are discussing 
 this matter with no motion before the 
 house, and it seems to me we are ac- 
 complishing nothing. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The Chair understands 
 there is a committee o:n this matter and 
 they are wanting further discussion to 
 instruct them. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I wish to say that 
 SO' far as this clause in our agreement 
 is concerned, we know that during the 
 past year it has been a piiserable fail- 
 ure, and we know that all of the dis- 
 cussions that have gone on here today 
 were engaged in last year. Similar 
 letters were introduced by Mr. Moors- 
 head last year. This is only a repeti- 
 tion of last year's discussion on this 
 matter. I said last year, and I believe 
 yet, that the only way that this prob- 
 lem will be solved, will be by making 
 a certain amount of rock, up to where 
 the miner may load without being 
 docked, be it a great amount or a small 
 amount, and then docking the miner 
 what he loads over that. I want to 
 say to the operators here that it is un- 
 fair and unjust, and the miners will 
 never accept any such proposition as 
 you are making to us, that all of the 
 impurities that are sent out in the car 
 shall be thrown out and weighed and 
 the operator compensated for it. As 
 far as we are concerned, there will be 
 no use in discussing that matter, be- 
 cause if every other miner in the state 
 
 of Illinois votes for it I will vote 
 against it. I want to be plain and em- 
 phatic, and I will give my reasons for 
 it. I want tO' say, it is just as unjust 
 to the miner as the injustice that you 
 operators complain of. A miner is no 
 more responsible and not half so much 
 responsible for the working place that 
 you force him to work in, as the op- 
 erator is. Tou force a miner to wo(rk 
 in a place in your mines where the 
 roof is falling upon the coal. The min- 
 er puts in hours and loses money, picfi;"- 
 ing those small particles from the 
 coal, and then it is impossible for him 
 to clean the coal entirely. No matter 
 how good the intention of a miner may 
 be, no matter how hard he may labor 
 to clean that coal, clean all of the irii- 
 purities from it, there are hundreds, 
 thousands of working places in the 
 state of Illinois where it is beyond the 
 possibility of the men to clean the coal 
 and then you come here and ask that 
 the miner shall pay you for something 
 that he has already paid you for, or 
 he has lost money by doing it, and you 
 ask that he again pay you for all of 
 the small particles that he sends out 
 in the car. Tou are asking something 
 today, that you never asked before, un- 
 der the screened coal system or any 
 other system. The miners are willing 
 to meet you half way in this matter. 
 We are willing to adopt any reasonable 
 clause that may be inserted in this 
 agreement, that will control this situa- 
 tion, but we do not intend to go to the 
 other extreme, and compel all of the 
 good miners in the state of Illinois to 
 suffer for what the ten per cent of had 
 miners in the state impose upon you. 
 There never was a time, under the old 
 docking system, when a ^niner was 
 docked for e\'"ery particle of impurities 
 that he sent out. Mr. Moorshead says 
 the locals are paying this money back 
 in the state. I want to say if that Is 
 the case this year, we know nothing of 
 it. I want to say further, and I want 
 to say that the operators in the state 
 of Illinois this year have taken just 
 as much advantage of tljat clause of 
 that agreement, as the miners have. 
 We have had several cases that have 
 been brought up where that has been 
 tlioroughly demonstrated. Last year 
 you contended that you wished to 
 catch the man who wilfully and mali- 
 ciously loaded the rock. This agree- 
 ment was framed for that purpose. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Or carelessly. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Tes.— this agree- 
 ment was framed for that purpose, and 
 yet in hundreds of cases in the state 
 of Illinois the last year, miners have 
 been fined, where it has been proved it 
 was beyond the possibility of the min- 
 er to clean the dirt from his coal. It 
 is no more the fault of the miner ihan 
 it is the fault of the operator. When 
 we work in rooms where the bottom is 
 shooting up wi^h the coal sliding out, 
 and heaving, and whenever he would 
 put his shovel down to get a shovel 
 
178 
 
 Morning Session, March T. 
 
 full of coal, some of these fine particles 
 would come up with the shovel, in spite 
 of all he could do. The miner cannot 
 get up on top of a pile of coal and spade 
 it out like you could spade dirt. He 
 must start at the bottom and shovel 
 along the bottom, and then you want 
 to oome here and hold the miner re- 
 sponsible for every particle of dirt he 
 gets into the car. There Isn't an op- 
 erator in the room but knows it is ut- 
 terly impossible for him ts- clean it. 
 Then again, we have hundred of places 
 where there is slate oocning with the 
 coal, where it is utterly impossible to 
 keep it out. You fine the miner, and 
 say to him he must clean it when it 
 falls, and they do it. And again you 
 wish to impose another fine on him be- 
 cause a few of the particles are left in 
 a pile of ooai, that it is utterly impossi- 
 ble to clean out. I want to say in re- 
 gard to this letter produced by Mr. 
 Moorshead, here, that if a part of that 
 letter was a sample of the truthfulness 
 of the things he complains of, it cer- 
 tainly Is not much authority. If it is 
 all true then I want to say Mr. Moors- 
 head has found another enterprise that 
 will certainly net him more money than 
 his coal at Divernon, getting out slabsv 
 and making flooring. 
 
 Mr. Chairman, I want to say again, 
 we are perfectly satisfied that this com- 
 mittee shall go and draft something 
 that will be In reason, and the miners 
 will work with you to see that it Is 
 carried out. We have done our ut- 
 most in the past year, to carry out 
 this agreement. I do not believe that 
 anyone knows that better than I do, 
 today. And the miners of the state of 
 Illinois know what we have gone 
 through in the carrying out of that 
 agreement. We have always work- 
 ed under the supposition that It was 
 to catch the man who loaded rock wil- 
 fully and maliciously and carelessly 
 into his car, and not the man who 
 worked hard to avoid the loading of 
 these impurities in his car. But there 
 is one thing that is certain, the min- 
 ers in Illinois are not going to agree to 
 clean every particle of rock from the 
 coal. They are not going to agree to 
 the operator docking them for these 
 small particles that they cannot avoid 
 loading. 
 
 MR. HEPTI: — I arose a few moments 
 ago for the purpose of having this mat- 
 ter referred to the committee at once. 
 I am yet of the opinion it should be re- 
 ferred without any further discussion. 
 It Is all right tO' talk th«se matters ov- 
 er, but we must remember we are con- 
 suming a lot of time, and while we are 
 doing this we are simply having the 
 cart before the horse. But it strikes 
 me, — Mr. Moorshead made a statement 
 and it wasn't quite' clear to me wheth- 
 er he made rfeference to any other 
 mine, or to his mines, which he had to 
 send communications to in order that 
 the miners and the men employed in 
 hjs mines, should give him a better 
 
 grade of coal. He did say that it wa 
 useless, I believe, to attempt to dis 
 charge anyone for loading dirty coa 
 That the pit committee would no 
 agree to it,— in fact, he left the impres 
 slon here that the local unions wouli 
 support the men since they were load 
 Ing dirty coal. Now, I want to ask Mi 
 Moorshead how many men were dis 
 charged at his No. 2 mine during thi 
 last year for loading dirty coal, anc 
 how many men were laid offl during las 
 year for loading dirty coal. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAIj:— I was com- 
 plaining of Divernon and not of Glei 
 Carbon nor Mt. Olive. I am ven 
 pleased tp say that our men at Glei 
 Carbon and Mt. Olive particularly, arf 
 very fair class of men, and we hav( 
 very little trouble, if any, with them 
 My remarks were particularly in re- 
 gard to Divernon. There is where the 
 most of our trouble has been in regard 
 to the loading of dirty coal and the 
 handling of the employes. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— That's all I want tc 
 know, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 MR. CAHILiL.:— Mr. Moorshead has 
 made the remark, awhile ago, about the 
 coal coming from Divernon mine mak- 
 ing floors for farmers' bams. I hap- 
 pened to be at the mine one day when 
 there was a specimen of that flooring 
 came back from this lumber company 
 I believe he speaks of. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— No, that was a 
 different thing entirely; that was big 
 chunks of clod. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— This came back in a 
 cigar box, packed closely and tightly. 
 Now, If the coal operators in the state 
 of Illinois are going to pick out a cigar 
 box full of dirt out of 30 or 40 or 56-ton 
 flat and ship it back to the mine and 
 make the men believe that is what was 
 In the car, I think they are very fool- 
 ish, because they will simply pay no 
 attention to it. Jjots of men will think 
 probably that was all the dirt that was 
 in the flat, that cigar box full of stuff 
 that was sent back to Divernon. Now. 
 we will agree, and we should all agree, 
 that the men should load the best coal 
 they possibly can, but I, like President 
 Mitchell, do not believe that fining is 
 going to eliminate that altogether. You 
 all remember when we had the screen 
 system, before we had an organization, 
 that the operators docked the men con- 
 tinually from one car a week to five 
 cars a week. At every dock they took 
 a car, no matter how large the car 
 was, and still that did not stop the 
 dirty coal from coming up. Neither 
 could the fining stop It. I was called 
 at a particular place in our district one 
 time, I will mention the place at Aub- 
 urn. The superintendent of the Aub- 
 urn mine and the check welghman dis- 
 agreed on a docking. I was called 
 there, and I must confess It was a 
 mighty small amount of dirt to dock a 
 man for, but the decision that I gave 
 there, I did not want to set any criter- 
 ion for the men to so by that this 
 
Morning Session, March 7. 
 
 179 
 
 would be permitted to load any certain 
 amount of dirt in the oar, and I decid- 
 ed that the man should be docked, and 
 -we have done that in numerous cases. 
 Now, I just simply mention this to 
 show that if Mr. Moorshead intends to 
 make the Divemon men believe that 
 there is only a cigar box full of dirt in 
 a flat of coal, that goes to its destina- 
 tion, I am afraid he is goins to have 
 several cigar boxes more in their coal, 
 because any man that thinks there is 
 only a cigar box full in a flat of coal, 
 is naturally going to load more dirtv 
 coal. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That calls for 
 some little explanation. The im,puri- 
 ties that were sent to me by express, 
 as he says, came in a cigar box. That 
 is true, and the party who sent this to 
 me stated that it was a sample of a 
 large quantity of stuff that he found in 
 the car. There were only three pieces 
 in that cigar box, Mr. Cahill, just three 
 of them, and very nearly as large a^s 
 your flst. Now, President Russell has 
 gone to an extreme in speaking about 
 small particles. "We fully realize that 
 there are conditions where it is impos- 
 sible to clean every bit of the dirt out 
 of the coal. We only desire that large 
 slabs of blue band and sulphur and 
 -slate be taken out of the coal, and we 
 have a right to demand that. There 
 isn't any excuse whatever for miners 
 sending out such stuff as they often do. 
 I have sent samples of their work up 
 to the United Mine- Workers, at Spring- 
 field, properly marked, stating the mine 
 they came from. Now I do not want 
 to say that is a sample of what we 
 have to deal with all the time, but it 
 was a sample sent up to show that the 
 men are sometimes wilfully indifferent 
 to their own interests, and ours too. 
 That often it is maliciously done. I 
 know that the officers of the organiza- 
 tion have done all that men can do, 
 and I wouldn't have their jobs at ten 
 times their salaries that they have got, 
 in trying to compel a few radical men 
 at different places to do their work 
 properly. They have got a very hard 
 job. What ought to be done is to 
 weed them out. , There are not many 
 of them. At Divemon we only have 
 a few, but they are making all of our 
 trouble there,— the most troublesome 
 lot of men that ever worked for an em- 
 ployer, I don't care what Industry, and 
 I haven't found a way to control them. 
 They simply defy the law of the state 
 and country. They defy the manager, 
 they defy the pit lx>ss, everybody. And 
 I simply hope that in the framing of 
 a clause here regarding dirty coal, we 
 will And some way to do it so. it will 
 be more effective than the past one. I 
 do not want to take his money away 
 from a miner. I do not want to see 
 anybody robbed. I want to have the 
 trouble eradicated. I do not want ..to 
 put in my time trying to explain to 
 consignees why our coal is dirty, or 
 saying to them it Is largely beyond 
 
 our control! that the United Mine 
 Workers of America have control of 
 our property and we are unable to 
 handle the men; that we cannot dis- 
 charge them without trouble and pos- 
 sibly ■ a chance of shutting down the 
 plant. I do not want to do that sort 
 of thing, and there, is not an operator, 
 I take it, in the state of Illinois, that 
 desires to do it. We simply want what 
 the contract calls for, and the best 
 mea^s that can be adopted to secure 
 that end, will satisfy the operators. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— While I may be 
 wrong in my opinion in regard to pro- 
 ducing clean coal, by adopting meth- 
 ods for getting it cleaned, I believe it 
 can be best handled in the districts, 
 not here. I believe that as long as 
 the men furnish the same quality of 
 coal that they were furnishing the coni- 
 panies previous to this agreement, and 
 there was no complaint of their coal,— 
 that that ought to be sufficient to give 
 them at this time. I know that the 
 company that I worked for complained 
 of dirty ooal in 1888. We ourselves 
 adopted a system there that has not " 
 been revoked, and no need of revoking 
 it by the company from that day to the 
 present time. The option was left to 
 the men whether or not would they 
 give marketable coal to the company, 
 for their own benefit, as well as the 
 benefit of the company. We agreed 
 that we would. When any dirt comes 
 up in the coal, the flat trimmer throws 
 it out. The check number is marked, 
 the pit committee come up at night, 
 they look at the amount of dirt thrown • 
 out of that car. The company have 
 nothing to do with it. The pit com- 
 mittee imposes a penalty that has been 
 adopted locally, on those parties. That 
 worked pretty good until we had some 
 trouble with the company weighman, 
 and under this agreement the company 
 had the right to have a weighman that 
 did not belong to our organization. 
 That is at No. 2 mine in the Citizens 
 Coal Mining Co. at Springfield. The 
 first thing we knew we hadi this man 
 that did not belong to our organization, 
 at the No. 2 mine, or No. 3 mine as we 
 termed it, we had men docked by him. 
 We informed the top man to watch 
 closely the man that was trimming the 
 flats and see whether or not this dirt 
 was going up. We caught this man 
 going off the flats, going about 15 steps 
 away from where he was dumping out 
 the dirt; that he claimed ' to be in the 
 oar, and picking up other dirt outside 
 of the track, to make his pile larger. 
 That is one of the instances that has 
 been mentioned here, where our organ- 
 ization was using threats upon a mem- 
 ber of the organization if he is going 
 to dock a member of the organization. 
 I want to say we did notify that man 
 there and theli that if he was found 
 gathering up impurities and placing 
 them back there and piling them' up 
 with the dirt he was taking out of the 
 car, for the purpose of fining any mem- 
 
180 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 7. 
 
 ber of that org-anization, that we would 
 fine him. He ooritinued to do it, and 
 we did fine him. 
 
 Now, they have reserved the right at 
 one mine to have their weighman out- 
 side of our organization. That mine 
 has got a cleaner seam of coal than 
 their old mine, and there is a continual 
 trouble there of docking. The company 
 claims the coal is being loaded dirtier 
 than at the old mine. I want to say 
 that at that mine they have a company 
 weighman, the check weighman and the 
 pit committee belong to our organiza- 
 tion, and they are the judge of whether 
 the coal is marketable or not, and that 
 company never since 1898, never did 
 complain of dirty coal coming out of 
 that mine, but the way it is at the 
 other mine, where the company weigh- 
 man does not belong to our organiza- 
 tion, there is kicking- day after day 
 about dirty coal, and I claim it is not 
 for the purpose of getting clean coal 
 that the operators want to reserve the 
 right to have a company weighman, 
 but on the other hand, they want to use 
 him to assign dirty coal to certain men 
 in that mine when they want to get 
 rid of them. That is the reason they 
 want him, and I think, while I may be 
 wrong, that if this dirty coal matter 
 should be referred back to the sub- 
 committee, then the conditions that 
 prevail in those districts could be han- 
 dled better and there could be some 
 methods adopted that would give them 
 cleaner coal and more general satis- 
 faction to both the operators and the 
 men, than any action that could be 
 taken in this convention, if I am not 
 mistaken, — but it wouldn't be the first 
 time I was mistaken, and I wouldn't 
 be the first man of this committee', 
 either of the operators or the miners, 
 who has been mistaken. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Just a few words, 
 then I will quit. I am sorry to hear a 
 few remarks that came from the 
 miners' president of this state, Mr. 
 Russell. I don't think he meant it In 
 earnest when he was saying it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Every word of it, if 
 it will set you right. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— If that is the case, 
 that the miners are all angels and the 
 operators all thieves, Mr. Russell, it Is 
 very bad in this state. I wish to state 
 here I do not think all the operators in 
 this state have made a few little ounces 
 or a few little pounds of stuff you have 
 been speaking of the standard. I do 
 hot believe any miner can get out every 
 little ounce of stuff, or every pound of 
 stuff. At the same time, on the other 
 hand, I believe the miners have never 
 been charged a quarter or a tenth of 
 the dirt they have sent out, and on the 
 other hand, have gone on loading up 
 the dirt in the coal that you speak of. 
 Tour system of mining today. If you 
 keep it up, with the standard you have 
 taken, will certainly have to go back. 
 I do not believe, as far as I am con- 
 cerned, and I want to be on record as 
 
 saying I do not expect them to tal 
 every particle of dirt out of the cos 
 but I do certainly object to having 
 pay one cent and quarter a ton for tl 
 bad coal. Now, Mr. Chairman, I c 
 want to have a committee appolnte 
 of good, solid-sense men, that will ti 
 to do justice both to the operators ax 
 the miner, men that will try to mal 
 the miner do what Is right and the o] 
 erator do what Is right; but I do n( 
 believe in taking these arbitrary stanc 
 and saying here that a pit commltte 
 is the one to settle the difference i 
 the mines when you go home to yoi: 
 local. I will cite an instance, Mr. Rui 
 sell. In one of my mines, just recentl; 
 the miners objected to buying thei 
 own coal that they mined. Objected t 
 it! Let's get away from these thingi 
 and I hope that we can get down t 
 business. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I do not know c 
 anything that warrants Mr. Newsai 
 in getting up here and distorting any 
 thing that I have said, and attackin 
 me in the manner in which he has. 
 do not know of anything that I hav 
 said that will warrant him in doin 
 anything of the kind. I never said th 
 operators were thieves. I never salt 
 the miners were thieves. I was pro 
 testing against a substitute offered her 
 the other day by the operators for th 
 present clause In our agreement, ii 
 which they desire to pick all of the im 
 purities from th^ cars as they com 
 from the mine and weigh them and de 
 duct them from the miner. 
 
 On motion committee adjourned. 
 
 SUB SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 7th, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order a 
 1:30 p. m. by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I wish to make a fev 
 remarks in regard to the sixth clausi 
 of that agreement. There have beei 
 features that have been presented ti 
 this committee from the operators' sid 
 and we have had the opinions am 
 views of Mr. Jeremiah and others. Ii 
 fact, I did not think It was necessar; 
 for me to get up, and it is in regard t< 
 the conditions that exist in this Eightl 
 district, and the claim there are mon 
 impurities than ever and they are get 
 ting a larger percentage of slaqk thai 
 they ever had. I am not saying thii 
 from a personal standpoint, of seeini 
 everything, but I believe the operator; 
 are considerably to blame. In the flrs 
 place, the ventilation was bad, an( 
 they couldn't see to pick these Impuri. 
 ties out. They tried to shoot twice i 
 day and it was injurious to our men 
 while the operators claimed they wen 
 getting these impurities out, and thei 
 appealed to the Inspector to remedi 
 thaf matter. The way he remedied thi 
 matter was to shoot once a day. Nov 
 I want to say, that was no remedy a 
 the case. We tried last year to remedi 
 it, right at Springfield, that Is, to ge 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 181 
 
 the sing-le system adopted in this dis- 
 trict, and they denied us. They said it 
 was going to entail a large expense, 
 which we considered it would not, and 
 I have got to say this much, as far as 
 the per cent of coal, that is fine coal, I 
 have got to admit that is actually the 
 case. And why? Because when the 
 tnen fire once a day, and there are two 
 men placed in a room, that room is 
 twenty-four feet wide. In order to make 
 a living they have got to shoot four or 
 five shots at night, and it Is an evident 
 fact that one shot taking a portion of 
 another One it certainly makes every- 
 thing fly. If you haven't got one good 
 shot, then that breaks up the one that 
 yoji have got. These are the conditions 
 that I am trying to present from the 
 nainers' view. I consider from a prac- 
 tical point of view, that if the single- 
 room system was adopted it certainly 
 would give them a larger per cent of 
 lump coal. It is true it's only a few 
 years back that the miner who pro- 
 duced the largest amount of slack or 
 nut was the one that was appreciated 
 ■by the operators, but such is not the 
 case today and they try to blame us 
 for getting that per cent, "We en- 
 deavored also to keep a certain class of 
 people from the mines l^t year — that 
 is, impractical men. They objected to 
 that also. Now, the position that we 
 are in today, they condemn us for the 
 position that we took last year, and 
 these are points I have got to say exist 
 in the Eighth district, and I wished 
 merely to make a few remarks along 
 that line. 
 
 MR. NE"WSAM:— I want to ask a few 
 questions and then I will sit down. Will 
 you tell me liow many men I have 
 worked that way in my five mines? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I do not know, but I 
 say as a general rule they work two' in 
 a room. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I wish to make this 
 statement here, and be put on record, 
 that the rule at every one of my mines 
 is to work the men single, except they 
 insist on taking in a boy or partner.' I 
 have made that rule for a long time. I 
 am still on that rule. 
 
 MR. BROWN:— I have listened to 
 this discussion, and it has brought out 
 one point very substantially, and that 
 we are agreed on what we want, but 
 we cannot agree on how to do it. Now 
 I think this scale committee cannot ar- 
 rive at any conclusion, but a small 
 committee probably could, and I move 
 that the matter be referred to a com- 
 mittee or two or three, to draft some 
 resolution. ■ 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that this 
 matter be referred to the committee. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Mr. Russell's 
 motion is to re-refer this matter to the 
 joint committee. I would like to ask 
 Mr. Russell if it is his intention to ha,VL 
 it referred to the committee selected 
 some few days ago? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Tes; I understand 
 
 Mr. Perry is not present, but he has a 
 substitute, I suppose. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 ^ye, the miners voted aye, and It was 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL— If the operators 
 have no objection, I desire to substitute 
 Mr. Hefti for Mr. Charton. 
 
 (The secretary read the eighth clause 
 of the present agreement.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the' 
 eighteenth clause of the miners' pro- 
 posed agreement be substituted for the 
 eighth clause of the present agreement. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I move 
 as a substitute for the whole the eighth 
 clause of the operators' proposed scale. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I think for the benefit of the miners as 
 well as the operators, the purchasing 
 of powder should remain in the con- 
 tract for the coming year as it has In 
 the past. We have enough trouble al- 
 ready in trying to continue the run-Of- 
 mine system, and I am sure that if the 
 miners are going to be permitted to buy 
 their powder wherever they please, 
 each one selecting the grade and the 
 class of powder that he wants' to use, 
 that we should have on top of the con- 
 fusion that already prevails around the 
 mines, and the disputes that we have 
 from endless causes, the powder matter 
 added to it. I know from my own ex- 
 perience that the operators already 
 have given the matter of powder great 
 consideration, as my company has done, 
 in having experts go to the mines, and 
 have the miners test the powder, to see 
 which is best suited for the class of coal 
 we are mining. We, at our five mines, 
 have three different grades of powder. 
 Those grades have been selected after 
 continued tests, and we feel that the 
 matter should be entirely in our hands 
 as to what kind of powder shall be 
 used. In addition to that, it is better 
 to have it in the operators' control than 
 in the control of all of the miners. They 
 would buy their powder where they saw 
 fit, take it to their homes 
 and then Itake at to the mines, 
 making it dangerous; but the 
 particular point is, that we desire 
 to get a special grade of powder for 
 use at our different plants, so we may 
 get as good a grade of coal as possible. 
 It will help the run-of-mine system, 
 and it will help the operators. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I believe there ig no 
 man any better judge of his demands 
 than what he is himself. It doesn't 
 look like the company wanted to give 
 us an equal show, when they reserve 
 the right to purchase the powder with- 
 out our judgment as to what our de- 
 mands require to produce coal. They 
 have continually made the statement 
 that we are producing more slack since 
 we went on the mine-run basis. If we 
 think the grade of powder that we are 
 using makes more slack than a differ- 
 ent grade of powder, I think we ought 
 
182 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 7. 
 
 to have the right to buy It, and I think 
 we ought to have the right to buy any 
 of our supplies In the open market, but 
 I am •willing, If what the operator pro- 
 vides Is as good as that we can get on 
 open market, to buy It of the operators. 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I have had con- 
 siderable experience In this matter of 
 powder. Some time ago I showed to 
 our people at Dlvernon that the records 
 on powder provided conclusively that 
 they either do not know how to. use 
 powder, or did not care how to use It, 
 and after having tried, by posting bul- 
 letins and by talking with the pit com- 
 mittee about the matter, I finally said 
 to the executive member of the United 
 Mine Workers that I would like to set- 
 tle the matter in the most practical 
 way^ possible, and that I thought the 
 best way to do it was to appoint a 
 powder boss. In other words, a man 
 who would go around the mine and in- 
 struct such miners as needed It, in the 
 use of powder and in the drilling. He 
 thought that was a very good idea, and 
 the result of it was that the best man 
 we had at Glenn Carbon was engaged 
 for that purpose, and I agreed to pay 
 him $100 per month and expenses, to go 
 to this mine and try and improve the 
 condition there. I was quite surprised 
 at the end of a week to find him In my 
 office, and upon inquiry found that he 
 had been practically driven out of the 
 town. He said to me: "I would have 
 been glad to have served you there, 
 and I found from the conditions that 
 my presence, or somebody else of my 
 capacity, was a necessity, but It was 
 made so uncomfortable there for me 
 that I could not remain." I make this 
 statement to show the gentleman from 
 the Springfield '^district that what Is 
 true at one mine or In one district, is 
 not true in another. It must be plain 
 to every delegate here, whether he be 
 a miner or operator, that the owners ol 
 the mines have but one interest, and 
 that Is to produce as little fine coal as 
 possible and as good quality of lump 
 and fine coal as they can get, and no 
 operator is going to continue the use 
 of a class of powder if he can control 
 it, unless it is producing the maximum 
 results. If the miners complain of the 
 quality of the powder they are using 
 certainly the operator will consider it 
 and test it, and find out whether a 
 change is necessary or not. I know it's 
 true at my plants, for we keep a record 
 of the maximum tonnage produced 
 from a keg of powder, the average and 
 the minimum, and we find out who the 
 men are that produce the minimum 
 tonnage from a keg, because upon that 
 hinges the quality of the coal that we 
 get. Show me a mine where they will 
 produce, as they do at our mine. No. 5, 
 at Mt. Olive, 260 tons of coal from a keg 
 of powder, month in and month out, 
 throughout the year, and I will show 
 you a mine that is giving as good re- 
 sults as can be expected. But when 
 you go into a mine, working in the 
 
 same seam exactly, and Just as good 
 shooting coal, and produce on on aver- 
 age less than 100 tons to the keg of 
 powder, and where the tonnage per 
 keg sometimes drops as low as 60 tons, 
 and I will show you a mine where a 
 poor quality of coal Is being produced 
 and where the miners are either ig- 
 norant or indifferent to their own wel- 
 fare, and are injuring the company. 
 The run-of-mine system is still a mat- 
 ter of test In the state of Illinois. The 
 operators are not satisfied with it, by 
 any means, and my advice to the dele- 
 gates representing the miners Is to lend 
 a hand, not only where xhe oi)erators 
 request it, in the purchasing of the 
 powder, but in any other matter that 
 will tend to give us the grade of coal 
 we are entitled to. We have to come 
 into competition with Indiana and its 
 double standard, with Ohio and Penn- 
 sylvania, with its screen-lump basis 
 We have to contend against the ma- 
 chine-mined differentials in Indiana,. 
 Ohio and Pennsylvania. In fact, we 
 have fastened upon us nO' end of con- 
 ditions that the states east of us have 
 never dreamed of; If you want to con- 
 tinue stating to the people of this coun- 
 try that Illinois Is the Ideal state, so far 
 as unionism among miners is concerned 
 you have got to help the operators a 
 little more than you have been doing. 
 And when I say that I am casting no 
 reflections upon your oflScers at all, but 
 I am casting reflections upon a class 
 of men at the locals and in the districts 
 who will not heed the advice of their 
 own officers, but on the contrary go out 
 of their way to oppose their own best 
 interests, by opposing the operators, 
 who have nothing but the interests of 
 the miners at heart, for this reason: 
 That whatever Is for the benefit of the 
 miner in such movement as this, must 
 be for the benefit of the operator. The 
 operators are going to see to It that 
 they get a good grade of powder, and 
 what is more, the mixture, if you pleas'?, 
 that is best suited for the grade of coat 
 that their mine is working in. My ad- 
 vice to you is to 1st that matter alone 
 and allow it to stand as it was a y(«i' 
 ago. In that way you will at least lend 
 a little assistance to the operators in 
 crying to secure, for the benefit of the 
 miners, as well as the operators, the 
 class of coal that they are trying to 
 get. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— It's inevitable that 
 Mr. Moorshead and I cannot agree, be- 
 cause Mr. Moorshead is taking a stand 
 upon the financial' part upon one 
 side, and s. am upon the oth- 
 er, but he is trying to lay a burden 
 of proof upon the operator as to wheth- 
 er it is to be used in the niine. 
 The same quality of powder has been 
 used in parts of this state, purchased 
 by the miner that consumed it, for $1.25 
 a keg, while we have got to pay $1.75, 
 and we might as well be plain about it, 
 that that ds the particular point on both 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 7. 
 
 183 
 
 sides. That's why I want the open 
 market. ' 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— One of the 
 greatest pities, so to speak, in the 'es- 
 tablishment of the run-of-mine system 
 In the state of Illinois, is that powder 
 is as low as $1.75— and not from a finan- 
 cial standpoint for the benefit of the 
 operator. If it was $3 a keg it would 
 come nearer accomplishing the object, 
 and there isn't a sensible man, I do not 
 care whether among the miners or op- 
 erators, but knows that. The inherent 
 selfishness of man would dictate it. I 
 am sorry, not because there is any in- 
 come to It, that would bring to us a 
 profit, large or small, that the price of 
 powder isn't much higher than $1.75. 
 So long as it is cheap, so long the min- 
 ers will be careless In the use of it and 
 the coal will be shattered to pieces, and 
 the Increase in the screenings will con-- 
 tinue just in proportion to the cheap- 
 ness of the powder. We have got to 
 make the price of powder sufficiently 
 high to compel the miner to practice 
 reasonable economy and make him 
 think well before he charges the vein. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— Are the miners 
 purchasing powder for less now than 
 they did before we had the run-of-mine 
 system? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I cannot tell 
 you that. I have not carried any fig- 
 ures in my head. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— Tes, it is. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I understand on 
 the average they are paying about the 
 same price for powder now that they 
 did years ago. Some companies are 
 selling it for less, and some for more. I 
 'think the mines operated by Mr. Lukens 
 would be a fair illustration of the ef- 
 fect of cheap powder. At his mines I 
 understand powder sold for $2.25 a keg 
 before the strike of '97, and I dare say 
 that no one will dispute the statement 
 that they made more screenings there 
 than they do now, so that a high price 
 for powder will not have the effect of 
 compellfng men or inducing the men to 
 exercise more care in shooting the coal. 
 The men are not going to doi that be- 
 cause of the cost of powder. If they 
 won't shoot their coal properly for 
 other reasons than saving a few cents, 
 they will not do it at all. It would only 
 amount to a few cents, between $1.75 
 and $2.00 a keg. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— Certainly, before '97 
 at Vlrden they were shooting from the 
 solid entirely and it was selling mine- 
 run, wasn't that the understanding? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think, Mr. 
 Sweet, they were selling screened coal. 
 But powder is not cheaper in Illinois 
 than it is elsewhere. In fact, powder Is 
 as high in Illinois as it is in any state, 
 at least, in the competitive coal field 
 where we make annual agreements. Ii 
 there was not so large a profit in sell- 
 ing powder, by the companies, I would 
 be disposed to give more consideration 
 to the statements and arguments made 
 by Mr. Moorshead. It is, I believe, a 
 
 fact that will not be gainsaid, that on 
 each keg of powder that is sold, thei 
 operators have a profit of at least 50 
 cents, and I know when they had a 
 profit of 85 cents a keg. I have seen the 
 quotations myself, some two or three 
 years ago, where powder was selling 
 for 94 cents a keg. I have been tola 
 that it now sells for $1.25 to the oper- 
 ators, and as low as 90 cents, I have 
 heard, too. Now that is an unreason- 
 able profit on any. product that anyone 
 can offer for sale. I am free to confess 
 that there should be a larger margin 
 of profit upon the handling of danger- 
 ous explosives than on Tmiriung other 
 classes of goods, but a profit of 50 
 cents on a keg of powder is a large 
 profit on the Investment. Now, If other 
 people sold that powder at that price, 
 and they insisted upon fixing the price 
 at $1.75 simply to induce the miners to 
 have care In handling their shots, it 
 would have more weight with me, but I 
 do not believe that high-priced powder 
 makes more careful miners. If we want 
 a particular grade of powder, we can 
 get it even in the open market. There 
 are only three or four brands of powder 
 that are sold at the mines in Illinois. 
 They are all standard grades of powder. 
 It is possible In one mine it would re- 
 quire a different grade of powder than 
 another mine. That could be provided 
 for even in the open market. If we 
 found that at the Mt. Olive mine it 
 required Dupont powder of a certain 
 class, then by agreement we could pro- 
 vide for that there; but we want the 
 right to go and spend the money we 
 make wherever we please. We work 
 for it and it is ours, and we want the 
 right to go out and spend it in any mill 
 or factory we please. We say you have 
 no right to ask us to buy anything from 
 you. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I do not think 
 in the entire competitive field there is 
 a state where the miners have more 
 liberty in spending their money they 
 eaxn than in the state of Illinois. There 
 are two points in connection with this 
 powder matter that Mr. Mitchell over- 
 looks. In the first place, there are large 
 quantities of powder which become 
 damaged from dampness, and I have 
 had a large quantity become useless 
 from being in stock, the dampness get- 
 ting to it and spoiling It, and we lose 
 it. There's a loss there, Mr. Mitchell, 
 and a big one quite often. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Will you let me 
 ask you a question? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Tes. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Isn't that also 
 true of every class of perishable goods 
 carried in a grocery store or anywhere 
 else? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That's quite 
 true, but you ■were speaking about the 
 profit per keg, which you cannot tell 
 8,nything about because of these con- 
 ditions thai go against the cost of 
 powder. In addition to that we don't 
 know what the cost of powder Is going 
 
184 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 7. 
 
 to be for the coming' year. I -will say 
 to you very frankly that I do not know, 
 and I believe I am about as close to 
 gentlemen connected with the combina- 
 tion of powder interests as anybody, I 
 do not know, and I want to say to you 
 that the operators are taking great 
 risks when they undertake to name the 
 price here that they will charge the 
 miners for powder, and I will say that I 
 am sure you are not going to get the 
 worst of it by any means. If you want 
 to continue the run-of-mine system, 
 then you have got to lend a hand When 
 It Is possible in every direction, no less 
 in the powder matter than anything 
 else. We claim If powder is cheap and 
 the miners are permitted to buy where- 
 ever they please, at any low price they 
 can get it at, it's going to be cheaply 
 produced for them and we are going to 
 be the sufferers. We are the people 
 who are going to lose the money, not 
 the miners, because it makes no differ- 
 ence under our system of mining 
 whether he produces slack or lump 
 coal, he is paid by the ton as it is shot 
 down and loaded up with the shovel. 
 We are the sufferers all the time, not 
 the miner at all. Whatever he produces 
 from the vein of coal by the use of 
 powder and shovels into the car we 
 have to take, whether it be good or 
 bad. And we believe, and rightfully, 
 too, we think, that we have the right 
 to say what grade of powder shall be 
 used. I want to remind Mr. Mitchell of 
 this, that the classes of powder pro- 
 duced by powder companies are not the 
 classes that are always used at the 
 mines. For instance, at 'one of our 
 mines we have a grade of powder that 
 Is made up of C, single F and double 
 F, in certain pro'portions, and that was 
 only arrived at after continued experi- 
 ments. I do not want the miners of 
 our plants , to purchase their powder 
 from whomever they please, because 
 they will always go to the cheapest 
 market for it and do everything they 
 can to get it at a low price, and we 
 shall be the sufferers in consequence of 
 it. I claim we are suiferers enough 
 now, and we do not want to be handi- 
 capped and penalized any more than 
 we have been. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I want to say 
 that I believe if the miners were per- 
 mitted by agreement to buy their pow- 
 der wherever they choose, they would 
 buy it from the companies. The best 
 evidence of that was found in the situ- 
 ation in Indiana one year ago, when at 
 the mines thepe was a magazine owned, 
 I believe, by an independent company, 
 put up closer to the mine than the 
 company's own magazine, the agent 
 there selling powder for $1.25 and the 
 company for $1.75, and the miners went 
 and bought the powder from the com- 
 pany. Exactly the same grade of pow- 
 der was offered for sale. Tou could 
 buy the same powder from one firm at 
 $1.25 and >at the other one you would 
 pay $1.75. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— What was the 
 motive? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I have always 
 said to run the Indiana Powder Co. out 
 of business, and the miners of Indiana 
 would not believe me. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— What was the 
 reason for buying from the company? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The desire to pur- 
 chase from the company is all I can 
 see In it. They believed because the 
 Illinois miners -Were buying from the 
 company they should be as fair with 
 the operators as the Illinois miners. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Then if what 
 Mr. Mitchell says Is true, there is no 
 room for argument, and he can afford 
 for the sake of harmony t'O let the oper- 
 ators still control it. If the miners will 
 buy it, as you believe they will, from 
 the operating companies, I do not see 
 that there is any necessity for further 
 argument about it. Just let us be sure 
 that they will, that's all, and the min- 
 ers will not be hurt, according to your 
 argument. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- That isn't a safe 
 conclusion to draw. For instance, you 
 remember the time when the coeJ com- 
 panies operated "truck" stores, and 
 the men had to buy their supplies 
 there? The men protested against it. 
 ' They went, and without the knowledge 
 of the companies, sent to Chicago 
 and to St. Louis and bought their 
 supplies there. Now, when they do 
 not have to buy in the company 
 stores, they are buying goods in the 
 company stores, and the most prosper- 
 ous store In any .mining town Is the 
 store operated by the company, or by 
 someone else in their name; and still 
 the miners have the right to spend their 
 money where they please. I believe 
 every miner where there is one of the 
 company stores will say that is true. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That is another 
 good argument in favor of the operator 
 and proves he is always ready to give 
 the miner the best he can at the very 
 lowest price, or the miners would never 
 patronize the company stores. Tou 
 leave the powder in our hands and the 
 miners will be just as well satisfied to 
 secure their powder from us. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou have got the 
 right conclusion now. The miners will 
 buy the best article they can get for 
 their money. If you will sell them the 
 best kind of powder, they will buy it 
 from you; but they do not want to be 
 compelled to do it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 there is a great deal lOf difference be- 
 tween what a miner buys for his own 
 family, the effect of which is upon his 
 family where he has to carry the bur- 
 den and weight in expense and trouble, 
 than in his purchasing something which 
 ruins another man's property. In this 
 case he is purchasing something to use 
 in our vein of coal. Our stock of trade 
 is going to be affected by it; we want to 
 get a good product, and we believe it 
 can be better done if the operator, after 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 185 
 
 having experimented, selects the grade 
 of powder that is best suited for the 
 vein that he Is working in. Thfe point 
 Mr. Mitchell mad© simply has a heading 
 upon the advantages and disadvantages 
 gained by a miner in purchasing goods 
 for his own family but in this case he 
 is purchasing something to use on our 
 product, and we want to control it. We 
 believe that when w© control the pow- 
 der situation ourselves, we are helping 
 ourselves a little bit In this run-of- 
 mlne condition that is fastened upon 
 us. We have got it, and we are simply 
 struggling to do the best we can with 
 it, and we have to have your assistance 
 rather than opposition in doing iti 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— A year and a ha,lf 
 ago the operators of one district that 
 does business with us made the propo- 
 sition tO' me to m.ake a contract to fur- 
 nish powder to the miners for $1.50 a 
 keg. If the miners would buy it from 
 the companies; to make the same con- 
 tract that we have in Illinois and the 
 grade to be whatever grade the miners 
 asked for, and they use a lot of powder 
 In the district. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I will have to 
 say again, Mr. Chairman, that in pow- 
 der, just like every other compounded 
 manufactured article, it can be made 
 to suit any price. It is like oil, if you 
 plea.se, or rubber; you can get a grade 
 of rubber or a grade of oil at any price' 
 that you want to pay^ Tou can get 
 cylinder oil at 15 cents a gallon, or you 
 may have to pay 30, 40 or 50 cents per 
 gallon; the same way with rubber. It 
 is exactly the same with powder. They 
 can make powder cheaply, so it is not 
 only dangerous in the mine, but is like- 
 ly to be expensive in this: That the 
 miners will suffer in health by it. Now, 
 we try as near as possible to get a 
 grade of powder that is made from a 
 charcoal that comes from willow — 
 willow wood makes the smoke lighter, 
 and Is In every way more beneficial to 
 the miner, and produces better results 
 in the production of coal. But if wel 
 have a competitive powder market in 
 which everybody is seeking to get it at 
 the lowest price possible, you can de- 
 pend upon it we are going to get a low- 
 grade article. We would a good deal 
 rather pay a good price for the powdei 
 and get just what we want, and charge 
 the miner a good price, and be assured 
 of getting a good, grade of coal, than to 
 see the powder produced cheaply, pur- 
 chased cheaply and sold at a low^ price 
 to the miners. We, in the end, would 
 be the sufferers. There isn't any ques- 
 tion about that. And we feel that we 
 have got enough to contend with now 
 without having to contend with a grade 
 of coal that is going to be much in- 
 ferior in quality, if powder is njade 
 cheap. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I'would like to ask 
 Mr. Moorshead a question: Do you 
 contend that the operator should be the 
 sole judge as to the grade of powder 
 used? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I think so, un- 
 der the run-of-mlne system; yes. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to ask if 
 that Isn't going from one extreme to 
 the other? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— No, sir: I do 
 not think so. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 contend that It is. I contend that the 
 miner certainly has some rights in this 
 respect. I contend that It is not within 
 the province of the operators to force 
 a grade of powder upon the miner that 
 will compel the miner to buy one-third 
 or one-fourth, or one-half more powder 
 than the miner would buy If he selected 
 his own powder. That is exactly what 
 they are contending. It may be all 
 very well for the operator to sit up on 
 top of ground or in his St. Louis or 
 Chicago office, wherever it is, and figure 
 out the number of tons produced to the 
 keg of Bowder in a certain mine, and 
 then say, "We are going to have a. 
 powder put up that will act slowly and 
 talce one-third more, or one-half more, 
 and we are going to make the miner 
 use it. He is using too much powder 
 to the ton of coal." Now, I want to say 
 to Mr. Moorshead and to the operators 
 here, that there is not an operator, nor 
 there is not a set of operators, that 
 can sit down and figure out the amount 
 of coal produced and the number of 
 kegs used in that mine, and then say 
 to the miners that it is fair, or that It 
 is correct. Tou may get the number 
 of tons of coal produced at the mine. 
 Tou may get the number of kegs of 
 powder used in the mine, but you never 
 will get the number of shots that fail 
 and the amount of powder that Is 
 wasted by the miner in standing shots 
 and ill seaminp' shots and in them 
 Dlowing the tamping oiut, and so on 
 and so forth. Tou may get a grade of 
 powder and a miner may work In a 
 room all day in preparing his shots, 
 lire those shots, and through not hav- 
 ing a sufficient amount of powder into 
 the shot he simply blows out his tamp- 
 ing and has not got a pound of coal to 
 show for it. Tet you figure that against 
 the miner, against the amount of coal 
 that he produces. Tou do not get all 
 of this. Tou simply get the actual 
 amount of coal that is produced and 
 the actual number of kegs of powder 
 that are used. I have worked In the 
 mine and used keg after keg of powder 
 where I have not produced two tons of 
 coal with a keg of powder, and yet the 
 coal that I did produce was not shot all 
 to pieces as you claim. There was no 
 coal produced with the powder. If you 
 take all of these matters into consider- 
 ation, then you may possibly get down 
 to something near a correct statement, 
 but you cannot do that because it is 
 utterly impossible for you to get it, 
 but the miners that work in the mine 
 know it, and then it is not fair and It 
 is not , right for the operators toi say, 
 "We are going to have a certain grade 
 of powder made; we believe that is the 
 
186 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 7. 
 
 powder," or, "We have made a test and 
 we have found out that Is the powder 
 to use," and then say -to the miner, 
 "You must use a keg- and a half of this 
 'powder to produce a certain number of 
 tons of coal," that a keg of another 
 grade would produce. I want to say 
 that outside of that there Is a spirit of 
 Americanism still In the ranks of the 
 United Mine Workers of Illinois, and 
 we believe that when we earn our 
 money that we should have the right 
 to spend that money where we. please. 
 And I believe today that it. would be 
 just as consistent upon the part of the 
 operators to come here and ask us to 
 insert a clause in that agreement that 
 would compel us to do our trading in 
 the company's stores, as you used to do 
 before we had an organization, as it is 
 to come here today and ask that we use 
 the strength of this organization along 
 with the persuasion that you bring to 
 bear upon u?, to insert a clause in thei 
 agreement to compel us toi buy powder, 
 or any other supplies you wish to fur- 
 nish us, from you. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— That argument 
 might be all very good indeed, if we 
 were permitted to pay for our coal on 
 the screened-lump basis. Tou might 
 come in then and ask us for all that 
 you are doing now. But so long as we 
 are on the run-of-mine system, and so 
 long as we are confronted with Lhe 
 many troubles that we have, we still 
 claim we have the right to say what 
 kind of powder shall be used at our 
 plants, and control it in every respect. 
 I do not think thel-e Is any operator in 
 the state of Illinois but who believes in 
 everything that Americanism repre- 
 sents; everything that any loyal man 
 believes of It. I know in speaking for 
 myself, that I want to see — and there 
 isn't a man working for us but what 
 has the right and advantage to take 
 his money and spend it wherever h^ 
 pleases; joining any organization thai 
 he wishes to join; and there isn't a 
 class of men that enjoy as much abso- 
 lute liberty, so-called Americanism, as 
 the miners of the state of Illinois, as a 
 rule, and particularly Of the company 
 that I represent. If we were asking 
 the miners to purchase something that 
 affected their own family or themselves 
 only, it would be a different thing al- 
 together. But in this case we are 
 forced against every vote, every voice 
 and every wish, to stand upon a single 
 standard basis; to pay for coal on the 
 mine-run system' — a product that is 
 shoveled up by altogether too man> 
 miners, irrespective of what it con- 
 tains; and we want to minimize the 
 amount of screenings and the amount 
 of impurities, and everything else of 
 the kind that troubles us, to the great- 
 est extent possible, and we ought to 
 get your assistance, as I said before, 
 in doing it. We are asking you to 
 aiUow us to sell the powder and be the 
 governors of that situation, simply be- 
 cause that affects our product. 
 
 Because it is a matter that enters into 
 the economy of the operation of our 
 plant. We don't ask you to spend your 
 money, ntor do we try to compel you to 
 spend your money at our stores, or in 
 anything else that we are interested 
 in, except so far as it enters into the 
 production of coal. And so long as you 
 compel us to remain on the run-of- 
 mine system I claim ytou have no right 
 to object to it at all. And with all 
 the advantages that you have got in 
 the state 6t Illinois, as compared with 
 other states, you should not object to 
 it for one minute. The state of Illi- 
 nois, so far as miners are cbmcerned, 
 has been held up by your national pres- 
 ident as being as near the ideal so far 
 as unionism is concerned, and its work- 
 ing i^ harmony with employers, possi- 
 bly greater than anything else In this 
 country; particularly so far as the coal 
 Industry is concerned. If that is true, 
 I have to say to you that as I sit here 
 and listen to the many little, techni- 
 cal, petty matters that are briought up 
 for us to consider, and also this mat- 
 ter of powder, I sometimes feel I am 
 wasting time. It is almost useless tor 
 us, who are in the only state where 
 ideal conditions are found, to try to 
 stem the tide of trouble that we are up 
 against, in producing this harmony 
 and this ideal condition that your 
 national president has talked about. It 
 is ideal to a great extent because it is 
 one sided. W^e are not satisfied with 
 it by a great deal— I'll say that to you, 
 and I hope you won't contend against 
 this powder matter any further. We 
 want to control a ctommodity that en- 
 ters into the production of our ooal, 
 and believe since you have fastened, 
 against our own wish, the run-of-mine 
 system upon us and hold it there, that 
 we should have it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not going to 
 take up much further time discussing 
 the powder question, but I do feel that 
 some things Mr. Moorshead has said 
 require a reply. It is true— and this is 
 rather irrelevant to the question, but 
 he suggested it— that I have spoken in 
 favorable terms of the relationship that 
 exists in Illinois between the coal oper- 
 ators and the coal miners. I have not 
 said the miner's condition in Illinois 
 was an ideal one, not by a long shot. 
 I do believe that many of the con- 
 ditions of the employe in Illinois are 
 more favorable than in any other coal- 
 producing state in the union. But 
 their conditions are not yet ideal. We 
 haven't reached Utopia up to this 
 time. 
 
 Now, reverting to the question of 
 powder and the shooting of coal. 
 There isn't a practical miner here, nor 
 is there a practical miner In the state 
 of Illinois, who will put more powder 
 in a shot than is required to properly 
 shoot the coaL If he puts too much 
 powder in, it means shooting the ooal 
 all to pieces, and he is going to knock 
 his timbers out; he is going to shoot 
 
Aftsrnoon Session, March 7.- 
 
 187 
 
 the coal back. If he does that, he has 
 got to set the timbers at his own ex- 
 pense. He has got td gather the coal 
 up out of the gob, and the mJlner is 
 like everybody else, he is not going to 
 cut off his nose to spite his face. If 
 he don't put powder enough in, it 
 wouldn't shoot it at all. That would 
 mean a standing shot, and he has giot 
 to perform the work of mining the shot 
 out. It only requires so much powder 
 to shoot a blast of coal, and he is not 
 going to put in more or less because 
 of any other consdderations than get- 
 ting the coal out. As I said before, if 
 he puts in too much, he runs the risk 
 of additional expense and additional 
 work, and miners, like everybody else, 
 are not fond of useless work. The best 
 way toi serve themselves by shooting 
 it is to shoot it properly. I said when 
 I spoke before that if there was no 
 other consideration than the preser- 
 vation of the coal here that the argu- 
 ment of the operators would deserve 
 more consideration. I think it is a 
 conservative estimate, that there was 
 purchased and consumed last year 
 600,000 kegs of powder in the state of 
 Illinois. It is also a conservative es- 
 timate to say that there was a profit 
 of 50 cents on each keg of powder, and 
 that means $300,000 profit on powder 
 alone, to the operators. Gentlemen, 
 that's no small ^-consideration. Tour 
 entire profit, the whole value of vour 
 coal last year, was something like $23,- 
 000,000 or $24,000,000. $300,000 wouldn't 
 be a bad profit on that. So I am not 
 disposed to separate the considerations 
 in the argument of the operators for 
 us to agree to buy our powder from 
 the operators. If the powder compan- 
 ies want to mix their powders and 
 make special grades for the mines and 
 it is the kind of powder that shoots 
 the coal the best, then the miners 
 w^ould buy it from the operators be- 
 cause under our present contract the 
 operators have not the right to be 
 the sole judges of what kind of pow- 
 der to use. If your powder is mixed 
 powder, made specially for your dif- 
 ferent mines, that oonclusion must 
 have been arrived at jointly by you and 
 the miners, or else you have takein 
 advantage of rights under the con- 
 tract that were not given you by its 
 provisions. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— It was ar- 
 rived at here in Chicago several years 
 ago. 
 
 MR. HEFTt:— I would like to aisk 
 Mr. Moorshead a question: If the min- 
 ers would appoint yourself and m.e on 
 a committee to take two different 
 brands of powder into a mine for the 
 purpose of making a test, and if the 
 test would prove that one of the 
 brands would produce thirty-five tons 
 per keg and the other brand would 
 produce fifty tons per keg, which of 
 the brands would you select? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: —Well, one might 
 think off-handed that he would take 
 
 the powder that would' produce the 
 highest tonnage per keg of powder. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I want to kno-y 
 whether or not you would select the 
 powder that would produce the high- 
 est tonnage? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I believe so, 
 unless it produced a tremendous 
 amount of smoke, or something of that 
 sort. My answer would be, ordinarily, 
 yes, I would take the powder that 
 would produce the highest tonnage per 
 keg. 
 
 MR. HEPTl:— Now, Mr. Chairman, 
 I want to say that I am opposed to the 
 powder clause as contained in our 
 agreement, or any other powder clause 
 that may be agreed to that will com- 
 pel the miner to purchase powder from 
 the operator. I am opposed to a prop- 
 osition of that kind, from the fact that 
 under last year's agreement various 
 operators in our district failed to fur- 
 nish powder- of standard grade and 
 quality. I want to say that one of our 
 companies had occasion to employ a 
 Ijowder expert whose mission was to 
 visit one of the mines, inquire into the 
 matter of to' what kind of powder 
 would be Imost suitable to blast the 
 coal. The expert made a report and 
 suggested a brand of powder toi be 
 used. It was only a question of a 
 short time (when a carload of this 
 powder arrived. The miners used this 
 powder and at the very beginning no- 
 tified the company that the powder 
 was not of standard grade and quality. 
 I want to say that that very powder 
 prloduced not more than thirty-five 
 tons per keg, while on the other hand 
 men who were working in that mine 
 produced all the way from forty-five 
 to fifty-five tons per keg with anoither 
 brand of ptowder. I want to say that 
 I am opposed to the present clause, as 
 I have said in the commencement, or 
 any other clause that will compel the 
 miner to purchase powder from the 
 operator because of the statements 
 that were made that powder could be 
 made to suit the price, and I believe 
 it is made in many instances to suit 
 the price and not to suit the purpose 
 of the miner. 
 
 At one of our mines not so long ago, 
 the pit committee complained of the 
 brand of powdef that they were uising, 
 and it was «the Phoenix brand. The 
 mine manager said to the committee, 
 "We will remedy it. We will get you 
 another brand of powder just to please 
 you." I want to say that came under 
 my observation, and I have known 
 this to be true: The powder that they 
 had on hand was sent back, the kegs 
 were opened and the ptowder was 
 thrown out of those kegs into Dupont 
 kegs, and sent back to that company 
 as Dupont powder. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Whatmine was 
 that? 
 
 MR. HEFTt: — The operator is not 
 here, or I would mention his name. 
 
188 
 
 Afternoon Jt'bssion, March 7. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD : — That was 
 downright dishonesty and we ought to 
 know the name of the operator or the 
 company that would practice such 
 deception as that. The roan that 
 would do that Is nothing better than 
 a thief. We do not stand for that 
 class of people, Mr. Heftl. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Isn't there a clause in 
 that contract that . meets that very 
 condition in providing that powder 
 shall be of standard quality, and the 
 miners have recourse. Wasn't there a 
 recourse in the instance you speak of? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— It is only reasonable 
 to presume there is a clause of that 
 kind in the agreement, and that It 
 should cover all cases, but it has not 
 done so in majxy instances. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Weis it appealed to in 
 the instance you speak of? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Certainly. Undoubt- 
 edly — 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— May I ask Mr. 
 Hefti a question? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— What reason 
 have you for cloaking a man that 
 would practice a deception of that 
 kind? Do you think he is worthy of 
 it? Do you think he is worthy of cloak- 
 ing? Do you think he ought to be 
 protected because he is not here, a man 
 that will do a thing of that kind? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Mr. Chairman, if it is 
 absolutely necessary to mention the 
 party's name, I will do it, but I will 
 not do it at this time, until I receive 
 his consent. I will do it with his con- 
 sent. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Is he here in 
 the city now? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Mr. Chairman, I want 
 to say further that while we have l^ad 
 considerable trouble with the powder 
 in the district which I represent, I will 
 say, on the other hand, that the^re are 
 other companies operating in that 
 same field and we have no trouble with 
 them. They have readily consented to 
 have the test made and they gave us 
 the powder i.he miners called for. But 
 I want to say the powder clause is 
 • abused just the same as everv other 
 clause in that agreement. It was not 
 abused by all the operators, but by 
 many of them,, and the miners have 
 oome to this point where they are will- 
 ing to pay a good price for powder, 
 but they want to know they are going 
 to get good powder, and they want to 
 have the privilege of buyins it and 
 having the satisfaction when they do 
 buy it of knowing they have got the 
 kind of powder they pay for. 
 
 MR. SW^EET:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Hefti if this man was donvicted 
 or acknowledged that he did this 
 thing? Does this operator admit he 
 did do it? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I do not know 
 whether he will admit it or not. 
 
 MR. SWEET: — Tou haven't had it 
 up with him, have you? Have you had 
 him charged with doing it? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— No, sir, we didn't use 
 the powder, that's all. 
 
 MR. SBCOR:— Therewas a statement 
 that Mr. Mitchell made, that I would 
 like to notice just a little. I under- 
 stood him to say that the profit on the 
 powder last year must have been 
 something like $300,000 to the operators 
 of Illinois — something over $300,000. 
 Now, if the operators were deprived of 
 that profit, it would advance the cost 
 of c;oal to that extent. In view of the 
 Indianapolis settlement, is there any- 
 thing that would authorize the United 
 Mine Workers to advance the cost of 
 coal to the operators in the state of 
 Illinois $300,000? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I admit that it 
 would be equivelaut to an increase in 
 cost, but the relative mining scale be- 
 tween the states was not based upon 
 the miners purchasing powder from 
 the dompanies, because at the time the 
 basis scale was first made between the 
 several competitive states, the miners 
 did not have an agreement to buv 
 powder from the companies. They 
 had the absolute right to buy it where 
 they pleased, and in Pennsylvania. 
 Ohio and one district in Indiana, they 
 have reserved that right up to this 
 time. The bitunainous district of In- 
 diana one year ago insisted upon the 
 miners making a contract to buy pow- 
 der from the companies, to be in line 
 with Illinois. There is a convention 
 going on in Terre Haute now, and the 
 miners say they will not again make 
 that contract. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— But isn't it 
 true that Indiana has the right to the 
 double standard and is not forced to 
 take the single standard? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It is true, at the 
 time the contract was made for aJl four 
 states they had the double standard. 
 And as far as the double standard is 
 concerned, let -me say that the miners 
 of Indiana have the option tO' have 
 the run-of-mine prices at every mine 
 they want, or to get screened coal price 
 if they demand it. They have taken 
 that option into their own hands and 
 use it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— They have run 
 riot? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They have not 
 run riot, but where they want run-of- 
 mine prices they will get it, and the 
 operators will tell you that. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— I only want to add 
 that by Mr. Mitchell's own statement, 
 it is certainly true that this movement 
 of yours will increase the cost of coal 
 to the operators of Illinois, as a whole, 
 $300,000. The settlement at Indianapo- 
 lis, if I understand it, will not permit 
 that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou have reached 
 a conclusion that is not correct. If the 
 miners refused to buy any powderfrom 
 the companies then it would be equiv- 
 alent tO' an increase in the cost of coal 
 to the operators of that amount, but 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 189 
 
 the miners are not going to refuse to 
 buy their powder from the companies. 
 If the action of the' miners in Indiana 
 is any criterion from -which to judge 
 the action of the miners in Illinois, 
 then the cioal miners would continue 
 to purchase powder, or at least a laj-ge 
 bulk of their powder, from the com- 
 panies, even if they had the right to 
 buy it elsewhere. And if the compan- 
 ies will sell the best powder, and I 
 judge from what Mr. Moorshead says 
 that they admit it is to their interest 
 to sell the best powder, as well as to 
 the interest of the miners, it is sure 
 the miners would buy their powder 
 from the cooipanies'. But what we do 
 not want to do is to surrender our right 
 to spend ;0fur money where we see fit. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— Mr. Mitchell in his 
 opening remarks I understood to sav 
 that the miner has no incentive to 
 overcharge his shots. Now, where the 
 consequences of overcharging a shot, 
 or excessive use of powder, fall upon 
 the miner, that is true. Where the 
 miner is being paid on a screened ooal 
 basis, or is likely to be paid at anv 
 time 4uring the day on the screened 
 coal basis, he certainly has no Incgn- 
 tive to overcharge his shots. He has 
 every inducement to use as little pow- 
 der as he can do the work with. I un- 
 derstood you further to say in your 
 remarks that the result of overcharg- 
 ing his holes is to blow out the timbers 
 and shoot his coal back into the sob 
 when the overcharge of the shot 
 reaches a certain point. It is a fact, 
 but there is a wide difference between 
 the actual amount of powder required 
 merely to shoot coal properly and the 
 amount that is required to overcharge 
 his shot enough soi as to blow out his 
 timbers and shoot the coal back into 
 the gob. There is a point in between 
 where they do break up the coa.1 and 
 yet not throw it back into the gob. It 
 is a fact, as I believe you must admit, 
 that the miners have increased the 
 percentage of screenings in a great 
 many instances. As to the exact 
 amount, that is a matter of dispute, 
 but that they have done it is the uni- 
 versal or nearly universal complaint. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Of the operators, 
 yes. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— Now, I want to call 
 your attention to some of my own ob- 
 servations in the Danville district 
 where the effect of using an excessive 
 amount of powder has become sio ap- 
 parent. The excessive use of powder 
 reached a point up until last year's 
 agreement, of sending up to two 
 dozen men up every night saying there 
 was rock down Iii their places. We 
 had to clean it out in the momins. 
 The effect there has been to cause the 
 consumption of powder for a certain 
 unit of product, to Increase from fifty 
 to as high as One hundred per cewt 
 That's a radical statement. I could 
 hardly give it credence, but it is a 
 fact that the average production in 
 
 some of the second district mines, the 
 average production of coal per keg of 
 powder has fallen from thirty to forty 
 or forty-five per cent. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Isn't it true the 
 Danville district operators changed 
 their grade of powder during the past 
 year? 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— No, sir. One com- 
 pany purchased their powder from a 
 different concern last year. In doing 
 so they purchased the same grain (the 
 same letter) they had been purchasing 
 before, but the piowder company which 
 made this powder seemed tO' use a lit- ■ 
 tie different screen from the "C" pow- 
 der, and instead of being as coarse 
 grained powder as they had formexiy 
 purchased from the trust, it seemed to 
 be a little finer. They, had a great deal 
 of friction with the men, beoaused they 
 claimed it was tooi fast for them. 
 
 Now that we are on this section, I 
 will state that I recently bought a 
 little "C" powder (we had been using 
 the letter "P") and' I got a letter yes- 
 terday In which our men complain of 
 this same powder, that it is too^ slow; 
 just a quarter rif a mile away, and 
 they claim It is too slow. This has to 
 be settled, like a good many other 
 questions, with a liberal use of com- 
 mon sense. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Can you at any 
 time buy any grade of p'owdei- you de- 
 sire in the Danville district? For in- 
 stance, can you buy Laflin & Rand or 
 Dupont powder if you want to? 
 
 MR. KEEFESR:- 1 understand we can 
 unless there is some new restriction. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Chairman, if 
 I am not taJking up too much time, I 
 want to draw attentibn to* this — that 
 there are certain divisions made of 
 powder districts, and an operator can 
 take one kind of pow^der or he can get 
 along without any. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:- i think you are in, 
 error, for the reason that I have been 
 informed that while the trust does own 
 all these propesrties each constituent 
 company still hustles for all the bus- 
 inesis it can do, and you can buy from 
 the Phoenix and the Laflin & Rand or 
 the Dupont tor others. The conclu- 
 sions I draw from all the observations 
 In the Danville district, and I presume 
 similar conclusions could be drawn 
 elsewhere, is this: That while a great 
 many men do not take advantage of 
 the fact that they are on the run-of- 
 mlne basis to use mtore powder than, is 
 necessary, a great many others do, 
 and as a result they are using a great 
 deal of powder, a great deal 
 more than they did formerly, and 
 as a result they are producing less 
 lump coal. As I see the situation, it 
 seems to me that a provision in the 
 contract similar to what we had last 
 year permits of both sides having a 
 say as to the quality of powder used. 
 It seems also true to me that since we 
 do pay exclusively on the run-of-mine 
 system, and Cannot pay any other way. 
 
190 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 7. 
 
 that the consequences of using too 
 small or too large a grain of powder 
 fall on us more than on the miner, even 
 if It does fall on him to a certain ex- 
 tent, and there ought to be a provision 
 requiring the miners to buy their pow- 
 der from the companies; the only ques- 
 tion left is the question of price. It 
 seems to me if it were known In ad- 
 vance that the cost of p^owder to the 
 operator would be no greater this com- 
 ing year than the past year, we would 
 not be justified in asking a greater 
 price for the powder, but since it is un- 
 doubtedly known very well that the 
 cost of powder Is going to be materially 
 higher to the operator, the operator 
 should not be required to sell his pow- 
 der at the same price as last year. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If my reooUectlon 
 is correct, I have It from one of the 
 most prominent and largest operators 
 in Illinois that the companies will not 
 be permitted to buy different grades 
 of powder; that the combination of 
 powder interests Is divided into ter- 
 ritories and they are going to confine 
 their product to that territory and not 
 go out of it. In fact, I was told yes- 
 terday, or the day before, I believe, 
 that in southern Illinois the line of the 
 Illinois Central divides the districts 
 between certain powder mills into 
 which they will ship their product and 
 this operator who operates mines on 
 each side of It will have to buy dif- 
 ferent powders for his different mines 
 because of their being located In the 
 different districts. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— As I said be- 
 fore, I believe I am as close to some 
 members of the powder interests as 
 anybody* and I was told, and I am sat- 
 fied that the gentleman who told me 
 meant what he said, that we could 
 purchase our powder wherever we 
 pleased. Any powder that we have 
 been purchasing that is satisfactory 
 we will still continue to get from, the 
 powder mills if we so desire. It would 
 be a foolish thing on their part to do 
 anything to the contrary. They have but 
 one interest, Mr. Chairman, and that 
 is to get the highest reasonable max- 
 imum price for their goods. That's all. 
 And it would make no difference to 
 them whether our company purchased 
 its powder from the Phoenix or Equit- 
 able or Laflin & Rand, King, or any 
 other company. The money would go 
 into the same pockets,^ust the same. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— Tniat would be 
 true, if this was a consiolidation of the 
 powder interests. Of course now I do 
 not understand as much as you do 
 about it. I understand this is simply 
 and only a combination of their inter- 
 ests in which they are going to divide 
 the territory and maintain prices. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I have thought 
 over the remarks made by a represen- 
 tative of the powder interests, and I 
 heard the assurance given positivsdy 
 that we could buy from any mill that 
 we chose, naming a certain number of 
 
 mills. I cannot recall now whether jt 
 included all of the mills or not. Evi- 
 dently It did not Include mills so far 
 east that the freight rates would be 
 prohibitive, but it did include quite a 
 number. I still maintain that the op- 
 erators under this new arrangement of , 
 the powder interests can secure their 
 powder from the mills from which they 
 have been buying if they so desire. 
 
 Mr. Mitchell has referred to the mag- 
 nificent income that the operators get 
 from powder and I have to admit that 
 if that is all there is to it the facts are 
 certainly bewildering. But there is 
 another side to the question, and that 
 is the screenings side of the question. 
 "We have in Illinois, more than any 
 operators in the other competitive 
 fields, suffered from It; greater than we 
 had anticipated even, and far beyond 
 the imagination of the operator in Ohio 
 and Pennsylvania, and I do not blame 
 them for sticking to their screened 
 lump basis. My advise to them is 
 never to let go of It. It Is their savior 
 In the use of the electrical machines. 
 If we had the screened lump basis, we 
 would not be here before you today 
 contending ajs strongly for the control 
 of the powder, nor would I expect to 
 stand and contend that the cuttings 
 from the machines should be left in the 
 mine or loaded out by the company 
 for the simple reason that our screens 
 would take care oft^iat. As it Is, we 
 are compelled through the excessive use 
 of powder on the run-of-mlne system, 
 at one or two of our plants, to stand 
 forty-six per cent of screenings on an 
 average. It has been said here that 
 it is to the miner's Interest to be care- 
 ful In the use of powder. The trouJ)le 
 is, a large number of the miners, per- 
 haps a good big half of them, know 
 better how to set a stick of timber or 
 load a car of coal than they do how 
 to charge a powder hole. They haven't 
 any natural ability In that line. That 
 has been proven by operators in. the 
 past. We have men in our Mt. Olive 
 mine that, month In and month out, 
 throughout the year, will have an av- 
 erage of 300 to 360 tons of coal per keg 
 of powder, and we have other men 
 who have worked for years In the mine 
 and do not get an average of more 
 than 100 to 150 tons, and with all the 
 instructing and all the assistance we 
 can give them they never get out of 
 that rut. The average of the mine 
 though, is high; 260 tons. 
 
 At Divernon, the place I complained 
 of particularly, we have men in that 
 mine that produce 200 tons to the keg 
 and a large number of men that pro- 
 duce far below 100 tons. ESconomic 
 conditions do not seem to teaoh these 
 men and the worst part of it Is they 
 will not permit me to put an expert 
 in there to teach them. They drive 
 him out of the town. That's known to 
 your state board. Certainly there has 
 been enough argument here to satisfy 
 any fair-minded man that a product 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 191 
 
 upon which we havei to depend In the 
 production of our coal should be left 
 entirely in our own hands, and it's got 
 to remain there or else you will have 
 more trouble on your hands than you 
 have at present. 
 
 MR. NEWS AM:— I want to say a 
 few words on this powder question. I 
 will be very brief. I do not believe it 
 is in the interest of the practical miner, 
 I do not believe it is' in the Interest of 
 the organization, I do not believe it is 
 in the interest of the operator, to get a 
 cheap powder. As regards the use of 
 powder, now, I cannot think that any 
 man but what will say, that is, any 
 practical man that mines coal, that 
 powder has been used to excess. I do 
 not believe there is any miner, fair- 
 minded miner, but what will say .that 
 our screenings are increasing with the 
 heavy use of powder. I heard some re- 
 marks about this blowing out of the 
 shots; about the shortage of powder 
 blowing out his shots. My experience 
 has been the extreme thickness of the 
 shots, and being drilled deeper, is what 
 blows it out. My experience has "been 
 that that has been the cause of blow- 
 ing out the tamping that has been 
 spoken of. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— I didn't under- 
 stand. "What did you say was the 
 cause? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The shots being too 
 deep, and having them too heavy on the 
 head. M&ldng the shots entirely too 
 heavy. I have examined many a one, 
 and I know that it would be Impossible 
 to blow out that coal with powder. On 
 the other hand, I believe in American 
 liberty as much as any man that ever 
 ' lived. I love it. I believe I ought to 
 love it. Now, gentlemen, if it is fair 
 for the goose, it is fair for the gander. 
 This organization has been together 
 now for the last four years, has been 
 peaceable, and we have got to give 
 way on both sides. Tou say to us, 
 "You must buy your labor from tfte 
 United Mine Workers. Tou cannot 
 have anybody else to work in your 
 mines. Tou must have our men, or no 
 other." 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We give you the 
 best coal. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— We give you 
 the best powder, at the best price. 
 What is fair for the goose is fair for 
 the gander. We want to get down to 
 where both sides must give and take. 
 There's none of us can have it all our 
 own way. There's too sides to a ques- 
 tion. And when American liberty was 
 spoken of, it brought to my mind that 
 the operators ought to have something 
 as well as the miner. But, gentlemen, 
 the first thing to be thought of, and 
 I believe both organizations should 
 look at it that way, is the salvation of 
 life. Tou cheapen your grade of pow- 
 der, and it is like any other article, 
 it will be used more freely in spite of 
 all you can do. Tou may make reso- 
 lutions here on those things, but when 
 
 you go home if it is cheaper it will 
 be used, freer and your coal will be 
 smashed up that much more, and your 
 losB of life will be that much greater 
 from it. I want to be on record here 
 as saying, and meaning it at the same 
 time, that I am in favor of saving life 
 as much as possible. 
 
 MR. KNOWLMAN:— I am of the 
 opShion the operaltors are not sincere in 
 their remarks. They come here and 
 they tell us that they want a bet- 
 ter grade of ooai, and they put every 
 condition on their places to produce 
 an inferior coal — that is, some of them. 
 I will not say all of them. Now, where 
 I live we used to work one in a roomi 
 About a year ago or less than a year 
 ago the operators forced them to work 
 two in a room. Why? They wanted 
 them closer together. What did they 
 have to do? Instead of shooting the 
 ooa4 so they could dig it out, they 
 would have to shoot it out so. There is 
 niot an operator here who will not say 
 a man can produce more coal by him- 
 self than If you put two in %, room. 
 Now, the company that I used to work 
 for during the time they worked by the 
 day they experimented with pow^der. 
 Instead of them saying, "We want 
 you to use this powder," they simply 
 got a few kegs of it and gave it to a 
 man, one of the best men they could 
 find, and they said, "Tou try this pow- 
 der." He tried it, and he told them it 
 was no good, and they abandoned it. 
 But if the miner will be compelled to 
 buy it, it doesn't make any difference 
 to the company if it's a quarter on a 
 keg cheaper, it doesn't hurt the oper- 
 ator a bit. It doesn't break up the coal 
 any more. They get double profit, and 
 the miner simply has to buy that much 
 more and work that much harder. In 
 this matter about the screenings, I do 
 not believe they mean what they say. 
 If they did, they would not produce 
 those conditions that they know would 
 compel a man to make more screen- 
 ings. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— I understand that the 
 miners at Mt. Olive will produce a 
 great many more tons to the keg of 
 powder than the miners will produce 
 at Divernon. Now, if we take into 
 consideration the system of working 
 in the two mines, we can readily see 
 that it would be impossible for the 
 miners at Divernon to produce as much 
 coal as they can produce at Mt. Olive 
 with one keg of powder. For Instance, 
 at Mt. Olive, where the miner drills a 
 forty-foot room with three holes,, the 
 miner at Divernon is compelled to drill 
 six holes. The miners from Mt. Olive 
 are here to prove that all the forty- 
 foot rooms are shot .with three holes. 
 The miners from Divernon are here to 
 say that six holes are required to shoot 
 a forty-foot room at Divernon. I want 
 to say there is another condition at Di- 
 vernon that is entirely against the 
 miner, and that Is the undercutting, of 
 their coal. It is not undercut as clear 
 
192 
 
 Abternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 as the coal is being undercut at Mt. 
 Olive. You will admit that' the chain 
 machine leaves a very small space and 
 aftentlmes sprags are left under the 
 coal. Where sprags are left under the 
 coal it is just the same as if it had to 
 be shot ofC the solid, and I do not think 
 it is fair that you should ask the min- 
 ers at Divernon to produce as m.any 
 ton^ per keg as the miners are produc- 
 ing today at Mt. Olive, as the con- 
 ditions and circumstances are entirely 
 against them. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— The only an- 
 swer I can give to that, and which I 
 think Is a very good one, is tha,t one of 
 the members of the United Mine "Work- 
 ers, one of the best men we have Sfot 
 in Glen Carbon, one of the most loyal 
 union men that worked there, was go- 
 ing to be employed at Divernon, and 
 he wished he could remain there to 
 produce the results. He said th^e 
 were a number of men there that were 
 doing good work, and he could not 
 teach them anything, but there was a 
 lot of men that did not know and 
 would not learn there. The difCerenee 
 between the average at Divernon and 
 Mt. Olive is about 160 tons to the keg 
 of powder. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— I want to ask Mr. 
 Moorshead another question : How 
 deep do you undercut the coal at Mt. 
 Olive? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— About four and 
 a, half feet. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— And after the room 
 is shot down how far will the face ad- 
 vance ? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I supposte It 
 goes into the coal about probably a 
 foot and a half in the solid. 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— Goes onthe solid? 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I think so. 
 MR. HEPTI:- Does it do that at Di- 
 vernon ? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— At Divernon 
 they undercut 7 feet. I do' not know 
 how far it goes into the solid. I do 
 not know how far they driU in. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— There is another 
 thing against the miner at Di- 
 vern'on. "Where at Mt. Olive they 
 place the undercut at a depth of four 
 and one-half feet, after the miner Is 
 through shooting It, he will find the 
 face goes in a foot and a half farther 
 than it is undercut. I do not believe 
 -that is true at Divernon. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I want to say 
 that the miners at Divernon do not 
 need any defense at your hands, either 
 In shooting coal or any other con- 
 dition. They are capable of holding 
 their own as they wish It against the 
 management of the property as well 
 as the United Mine "Workers' organiza- 
 tion and also against the state. They 
 do not need your defense. 
 
 MR. HEPTI: — I want it understood 
 that I am not saying anything here 
 that will defend the miners at Diver- 
 non. In fact, I know nothing about 
 the miners at Divernon. 
 
 JfR. MOORSHEAD:— I will say this 
 to you, that you did not forget to talk 
 about sprags being under the coal at 
 Divernon, but you did forget to talk 
 about sprags that might be under the 
 coal at Mt. Olive. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— You know there are 
 not any sprags under the coal at Mt. 
 ■ Olive. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Tou don't know 
 anything about it. 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— The miners are here 
 to say they haven't got sprags under 
 the coal at Mt. Olive. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't think 
 the miners have ever talked to vou 
 about sprags. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— I do not think there 
 should be any taJk about sprags at Mt. 
 Olive. The Hoosier mine — 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAiD:— What mane? 
 "What did you say the name of the 
 mine was? The gentleman wants to 
 be correct, and I know— 
 
 MR. CAHIDL,:— "Well, It used to be 
 called the Hoosier mine. At the Diver- 
 non mine the coal Is cut with a seven 
 or six-foot machine. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I beg your par- 
 don, it is not. It is not cut with a 
 seven-foot machine. I want to say, 
 Mr. Chairman, that you cannot cut 
 seven-foot coal with a seven-foot 
 machine. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— He did not say 
 that. He said seven or six-foot ma- 
 chine. You only got the first part. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Well, it only cuts 
 about six feet and a half. It only cuts 
 about four inches. I was there In the 
 mine three weeks ago yesterday. "Went 
 all through the mine. I saw where the 
 machine had cut on the left rib, where 
 it had started, cut to the bottom. The 
 next cut there would be black jack 
 in that, and it would be raised from six 
 to ten Inches, probably two cuts would 
 be left like that. The next cut In the cen- 
 ter of the room, or the fourth cut from 
 the rib, would be cut to the clay again, 
 that Is to say,on both sides it is cut 
 to the clay and in the center it's at 
 least from eight to^ ten inches. Now 
 a miner has got to shoot that out 
 first. Lots of times he doesn't know 
 what's in there, v(rhether there's a sprag 
 in there or not. Now that's against 
 the man at Divernon, or any other 
 chain machine mine, as against the 
 punch machine. In a punch machine 
 mine a miner can see what he is go- 
 ing up against before he shoots the 
 coal down. I believe Brother Jackson 
 will bear me out in that. He now 
 works in a punch machine mine. At 
 the Divernon mine they shoot six holes 
 to shoot down a thirty-foot room. 
 They shoot two shots, what they call 
 snubbers, and then shoot four shots in 
 the room. Now, as Brother Hefti says, 
 they shoot three shots in Mt. Olive to 
 bring down a forty-foot room, and It 
 does not take as much powder In Mt. 
 Olive as it does at Divernon. In Mt. 
 
Aftbrnoon Session, March 7. 
 
 193 
 
 Olive the coal is not as dirty as it Is 
 in Divernon, and that Is another good 
 reason why it takes more powder in 
 Divernon than it does in Mt. Olive, but 
 I want to say this, that I know a chain 
 machine mdne will take more powder 
 on an average than a punch machine 
 mine. I know of them. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I presume you 
 are all tired of listening to all of this, 
 about what happens in this mine and 
 that. The trouble with Mr. Cahill is 
 while hfe- undertakes to. go into the sub- 
 ject in detail he has only gone into a 
 part. Any man who knows anything 
 at all about the use of machines In 
 mines knows that a punching machine 
 mine can always produce more coal to 
 the keg of powder than they can with 
 the chain machine' — that Is, provided 
 the miners in the chain machine plants 
 don't snub their coal. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That's what Mr. Cahill 
 says. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— "Well now, what 
 I want to get at is this: That some of 
 the men will do it and some will not. 
 There's where we get up against the 
 powder proposition again. Some of 
 them, instead of snubbing with wedge 
 and sledge as they should do, simply 
 use powder, and they try to blow the 
 ccal out just as they would if it was 
 frorh the solid. That is the trouble there, 
 and when I say that one of your own 
 members, one of the most loyal mem- 
 bers you have got, as good a union 
 man as belongs to your organization, 
 told me a large number of the men in 
 the mine ought to , be instructed or 
 compelled in some way to dO' their 
 work properly but absolutely refused 
 to take instructions from him, but he 
 said you have got a lot of good men 
 there that are doing as well as any- 
 body could do. It is 'the indifferent man 
 that gives us the trouble, and you have 
 got a whole lot of them in your organ- 
 ization, particularly in Illinois. They 
 have felt the fruits of victory tO' such 
 an extent that they think they can do 
 as they please, and these men I am 
 sorry to say pretty nearly control a 
 large number, and altogether too large 
 a- number, of your locals. They defy 
 everything, and if they cannot have 
 their own way they will make threats 
 of suspension. "We have had it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I just want to 
 say I do not think It helps us to reach 
 conclusions, for us to . start in and 
 abuse either the local unions or the op- 
 erators. Now we could say lots of 
 mean things about the operators if we 
 wanted to. I trust you do not imag- 
 ine the operators' organization is com- 
 posed of men who are the embodiment 
 of all that is right and just and fair a^ll 
 the time and do not do wrong. "We 
 haven't abused you gentlemen since 
 you came here, and we have allowed 
 you, Mr. Moorshead— yx3u have put In 
 about half of your time telling us 
 about all the faults and failings of our 
 local unions. I do not think they dre 
 
 all saints, but I think they are com- - 
 posed of an average class of men. 
 
 And about this run-of-mine system 
 that has been Injected into every dis- 
 cussion that has come up. There isn't 
 a question that we try to settle that 
 there isn't somebody starts to tell us 
 about having the run-of-mine system 
 in Illinois and h(*w the operators suf- 
 fer from it. I will make this statement 
 now, that if the operators of your 
 district, Mr. Moorshead, had their 
 choice to accept the 80-cent screened 
 coal rate you would not do it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— How do you 
 know? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I know from th'e 
 statements of your ouerators that it 
 doesn't average forty per cent, the 
 screenings, in your district. It iias not 
 been contended by you, yourself, that 
 the average is fO per cent, and your 
 run of mine is based upon 40 per cent. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I said it was 
 46 per cent. 
 
 MR. MItCllELL:— Tou said at one 
 mine. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I wasn't talk- 
 ing about any other at that time. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— As far as this pow- 
 der question is concerned, I would like 
 to ask Mr. Cahill if any of the reasons 
 - he stated are responsible for a steady 
 decrease in the proportion of lump 
 coal at the same mine, mined by the 
 same methods, over what they were 
 before. Now he says that there is only 
 a small cut made with a chain ma- 
 chine, and all that sort of thing. "We 
 concede that, but our percentage of 
 lump coal is steadily decreasing. Take 
 the "Virden mine, where we have had 
 chain machines. In two years our per 
 cent of lump coal has decreased 11.6 
 per cent, and' the decrease In the num- 
 ber of tons of coal produced by one keg 
 ot powder in two years has been 34.6 
 per cent. 
 
 MR. .RUSSELL:— I would like to ask 
 how you know it has decreased? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— "Why, we keep some 
 records there, Mr. Russell, and I am 
 taking it from the records we keep. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— My reason for ask- 
 ing that question is there was a joint 
 meeting at St. Louis and the operators 
 only contended that they knew it from 
 the consumers. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The consumer l5ts 
 us know about It, but information of 
 this kind we take from our books. I 
 might say what I isaid there applies to 
 our Virden mine, Now our Chatham 
 mine In October, 1901, we got out of 
 one keg of powder just half as many 
 tons of coal as we did in April, 1900; 
 and I might say in that connection 
 that we have had some controversy 
 with our miners about the grade of 
 powder we are usjng there, and at their 
 request we changed the powder. That 
 change went into effect the first of Sep- 
 tember, 1901. The miners, and espec- 
 ially Mr. Cahill, told me about the vi ■- 
 
194 
 
 Afternoon vSession, March 7. 
 
 ,tues of this other powder— that if we 
 got it we would get a, very large in- 
 crease in our lump coal,_ we would 
 have no' trouble from falling of our 
 roof, the miners wouldn't shoot the 
 props out, and we would have a con- 
 dition of affairs that would be alto- 
 gether lovely. I have a great deal of 
 faith In humanity, and believing- the 
 statements made I changed our pow- 
 dp^r, and I want to say to you, gentle- 
 men, that instead of getting better re- 
 sults we get worse results. The x>er- 
 centage of lump , coal has decreased 
 and the num,ber of tons produced by 
 one keg of powder has decreased: Now 
 I do not lay that to the powder alto- 
 gether. I do not know that I lay it to 
 It at all. I think it's just due to the 
 growing indifference of the men as to 
 the kind of coal they produce. At our 
 Auburn mine the number of tons of 
 coal produced to the keg of powder in 
 the last year and a half has decreased 
 27 per cent. The percentage of our 
 lump coal has decreased 16 per cent. 
 
 MR. CAHILD:— Did I understand 
 you you to say that the percentage of 
 slack has increased at your Virden 
 mine since you went into the gross 
 weight system to what it was over the 
 screened system. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— 1 didn't say any- 
 thing about that. 1 might say to you 
 that ever since we have been on the 
 run-of-mine system we have had mg.- 
 chines there, before we were on the 
 hand basis, so' we haven't any means 
 of coniparlng. 
 
 MR. CAHILiL.: — Tour mine was run 
 by hand after you went into the mine- 
 run system. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— "WTien? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— In '97. The machines 
 were not put in at Virden until Janu- 
 ary, 1898. "We worked under the hand 
 basis there until the fall of '97, and 
 one side of the mine was run for quite 
 a while in 1898. Did I understand you 
 to say that the percentase of ' slack 
 had increased after you went to run- 
 ning the mine on the hand basis, to 
 what it was over the screened basis? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I cannot answer 
 that question. I haven't got those 
 figures and I do not remember. 
 
 MR. CAHILL: — I wish you would an- 
 swer it. 
 
 MR. DUKBNS: — I would answer jt 
 if I could. The figures I have do not 
 go back that far. But I want to say 
 to you that our percentage of fine coal 
 has steadily Increased under the run- 
 of-mine system. It's worse now than 
 it ever was, and we had a biggv^r 
 increase in the last year than we ever 
 did before. I supposed a year ago w^e 
 were up to the limit; that it could not 
 be any worse. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Would the fact 
 that the miners could purchase powder 
 from somebody else than you have 
 inything to do with it? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes, it would make 
 it worse. Mr. Mitchell, there are cheap 
 
 powders noade in the east that are in- 
 ferior, and in my opinion if the miners 
 were granted the option of purchasing 
 their powder outside it would not be 
 a month before they would be hunting 
 around for that cheap powder, and It 
 would have a bad effect on the coal 
 and a bad effect on the work that the 
 miners would do. It's getting pretty 
 near to the limit now. If it would get 
 any worse I do not see how we could 
 sell the coal at all. We are almost 
 knocked out at the best. If we should 
 get a chea,per powder in there it would 
 be so bad that it would be almost Im- 
 possible to operate the mines, in mv 
 opinion. I contend that the price of 
 powder should be increased, to protect 
 the operators for one thing. Another 
 reason is because the powder interests 
 have gone into a trust and everybody 
 will have to pay mo-re for it, and I 
 think the, operators are entitled to all 
 the protection that the miners' organi- 
 zation can give them. Tliey are entit- 
 led to good coal, and the effort should 
 be on the part of the miners to give us 
 the best possible coal. That is one way 
 of helping us. In my opinion there 
 should not be any objection to it at 
 all. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I was going to say, 
 that in the Danville district, we can 
 buy any grade of powder that is hand- 
 led by the operators of that district, 
 say for $1.50 per keg. I do not care 
 what grade you get, we can get it at 
 $1.50. 
 
 In regard to assisting the operators 
 in getting better^ coal, I wish to sav 
 that if you will take the coal reports 
 and follow them down, the operators' 
 own figures, you will find there has 
 been a reduction in the amount of 
 screenings produced. When we con- 
 front the operators of Illinois with 
 these, their own figures, they simply 
 repudiate them and say they are not 
 correct. Then the miners in their 
 own convention last year attempted to 
 formulate a plan that would give them 
 something to work upon, — something 
 that would be correct; something that 
 the miners' delegates and their officials 
 might go before the miners of Illinois 
 and say, "The percentages of screen- 
 ings are increasing, and we know It. 
 We have found it out through our own 
 efforts." We got up a blank form that 
 would give us all the information re- 
 quired. We gave it to the check 
 weighman with instructions to send 
 those blanks in once per month to the 
 office, and yet, strange to say, the op- 
 erators sent out a circular letter 
 throughout the state of Illinois to the 
 operators of Illinois tellinsr them to 
 deny our check weighman the infor- 
 mation which they sought. They hand- 
 icapped us there. We were unable to 
 procure the information. And todav 
 if the operators will take the plice of 
 the officials of the United Mine Work- 
 ers or the delegates who come here and 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 195 
 
 Tiear your complaints, , and go out 
 among the miners and attempt to con- 
 vince them that the percentage of 
 screenings is Increasing, as you say It 
 is, I want to say to you, you have 
 tackled one of the most immense jobs 
 you have ever attempted. We have 
 here some figures that were compiled 
 from the reports, — they are not com- 
 plete, but from some of the mines 
 where they did not deny our check 
 weighman the right to get the informa- 
 tion that he was looking for. We 
 have compiled the figures here, and in 
 those mines it does not show an in- 
 crease in the percentage of screenings, 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Nor a decrease in the 
 number of tons per keg. 
 
 MR. RUSSEXLLi:— No, nor a decrease 
 in the number of tons per keg. This 
 is the information we were looking for. 
 We wanted a report coming from our 
 own people that "we might go before 
 the miners and use the figures furnish- 
 ed by our owti people and try, if they 
 were Increasing the percentage of 
 screenings, to have them to remedy it. 
 But you took from us the weapon that 
 we were seeking to gain. And-I want 
 to say it is not fair for you to come 
 here and ask us, or say to us, as you 
 do year after year, that your percent- 
 age of screenings in increasing, and at 
 the same time repudiate - the figureis 
 that you yourselves give, and then say 
 to us "we will deny you the right of 
 knowing what the screenings are that 
 are made at our mines, and what the 
 percentage of lump are; what the num- 
 ber of kegs of powder are that are 
 used at the same mines," and so on. 
 This is what we were asking you for, 
 and this is what you denied us. So 
 far as the powder question is concern- 
 ed, I have but very little to say. I 
 wish to say this, now: That the min- 
 ers can procure the same grades of 
 powder 'that you can, and we can pro- 
 cure it in the different districts at not 
 less than 25 cents per keg, at least, less 
 money than you are charging the min- 
 ers for it. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— May I ask Mr. Russell 
 a, question? 
 
 MR. RtTSSELL:— Yes". 
 
 MR. CMJTTS:— Were those mines you 
 referred to shipping mines, Mr. Rus- 
 sell? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Were those screenings 
 loaded in cars for shipment? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- Yes, I suppose they 
 were. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Was there any method 
 of weighing those screenings at the 
 mines'? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I do not know 
 whether there was or not. One of the 
 check weighmen is present toi explain 
 it. 
 
 MR. SWEET:- 1 would like to ask 
 Mr. Russell if any of those mines be- 
 long to our company, that you have 
 figures on there? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— I can show you from 
 figures I have got here they are not 
 correct. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to say Mr. 
 Chairman, that we have the figures 
 here, but I do not know that we care 
 to present them. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— I do not care any- 
 thing about it. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— Mr. Rusisell says the 
 figures as given in the bureau of labor 
 statistics have been repudiated by the 
 operators. It is possible there a^e 
 some inaccuracies in there, quite pr^- 
 able, but it seems to me they ought not 
 to b« repudiated if so. The figures 
 given, however, showing percentages 
 of screenings, are somewhat mislead- 
 ing, because in the last few years It 
 has become almost a regular practice 
 to take out the nut and coarser sizes 
 of screenings and sell them as nut and 
 egg coal, and only the smaller sizes are 
 reported as screenings. That would 
 manifestly show a decrease of screen- 
 ings. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — On two dlfteremt oc- 
 casions the Illinois operators have re- 
 pudiated the figures contained In the 
 coal report as a whole. That is a 
 matter of record. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 want to say in that regard, that after 
 the figures leave the operators, they 
 are sent up to the bureau of labor sta- 
 tisticians, and each parflcular secre- 
 tary of that board jumbles them up to 
 suit himself. Each has a different 
 method, generally, of handling those 
 figures; some have one method and 
 some other. Some of them put the 
 mine- run into lump; another man will 
 make it separate, and it mixes them 
 up so thoroughly nobody can get any 
 reliable information out of them. That's 
 one reason why you cannot depend 
 very much on those figures. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — That statement ought 
 not to be allow^ed to go into the record 
 here in the shape you have put it, cov- 
 ertly, at least, attempting fjo place the 
 responsibility for inaccuracies in those 
 figures upon the clerks in the labor 
 bureau. Mr. Moorshead, speaking for 
 the Illinois operators last summer at 
 St. Louis, stated that the figures were 
 not correct, — the figures furnished by 
 the operators were not correct, and 
 would not be; that they were not go- 
 in? to allow the public to know the in- 
 pide of their business. Mr. Peabody 
 went on record in the scale committee 
 meeting at Indianapolis, as repudiating 
 the entire business, — I mean when I 
 say the entire business, the figures in 
 the Illinois coal report as furnished by 
 the operators. I simply want to get it 
 in the record. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Will you allow 
 me to say just a few words. The oper- 
 ators themselves, and I think it was in 
 '98 or '99, undertook to use some of l^ie 
 figTires that we furnished to the state 
 bureau of statistics, and they found 
 
196 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 themselves, very much confused, In 
 this: That mines that had been run- 
 Tiixis on thai mine-run basis very largnj- 
 ly and the flgureis had been put in~b^ 
 the bureau as screened lump coal and 
 everybody was at sea in regard to the 
 flgTires. 1 do not think the operators 
 are as much to blame as the state bur- 
 eau of statistics. The figures are mis- 
 leading, not from what the operators 
 do, particularly, as they are some- 
 times from the method employed In 
 compiling them.' It's not the operat- 
 ors' fault altogether; we found them 
 unreliable and we were honest enough, 
 Mr. Chairman, to tell you that s<> you 
 might not be deceived as we were. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Why didn't you make 
 that excuse down at St. Louis last 
 summef ? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Like a great 
 many others, Mr. Chairman, we do not 
 alw£\,ys think of all the points we want 
 to maJie. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Let me ask another 
 question. Why didn't Senator Hull make 
 that excuse at Springfield? 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— The senator, I 
 suppose, is very much like everybody 
 else, he is not perfect. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I will ask another 
 question, of either Mr. Lukens or Mr. 
 Moorshead. You folks have repudiated 
 those figures up to the present time. 
 Are you aware that you ha^je fixed 
 them now so Hhe next .coal report will 
 bring you out on the right side? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I cannot speak 
 (or the next state report, how thgy 
 have handled it. I cannot tell what 
 method they have of juggling those 
 statistics. If their judgment is" as 
 good and thev are as corre'ct as the 
 average operator the statistics will be 
 all right. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I want to say that I 
 had no Intention of casting any reflec- 
 tion on the bureau of labor statistics. 
 I only stated that each particular sec- 
 retary had his own ideas as to how the 
 report should be made out, and prepar- 
 ed it along the lines he' thought was 
 proper, and when we attempted to take 
 the figures and compare them we were 
 simply all at sea. We couldn't do it. 
 
 In regard to the powder question 
 again. I see from the figures handed 
 me here, that for the state, in 1900, the 
 average tonnage of coal produced to 
 one keg of powder, was 57 tons. In 
 '91, 48 tons. I have figured it up for 
 Sangamon county. "We have two mines 
 in that county, and in 1899, (I haven't 
 the figures for 1901'), in 1899 it was 
 28.2 tons produced for one keg of pow- 
 der. In I960, 21.9, and I haven't the 
 slightest doubt but what 1901 will show 
 a proportionate decrease. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Lukens, do 
 you take the total number of kegs of 
 powder sold and divide it by the num- 
 ber of tons mined? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Of course, that 
 doesn't show the number of tons of 
 
 coal mined by the keg of powder. You 
 know the increase In the production 
 of coal in Illinois, and the development 
 of mines, has been in shooting coal, so 
 those figures do not mean anything- 
 that you quote. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— They certainly do 
 for Sangamon county, because it's all 
 shooting coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— W^hy didn't you 
 quote the entire state? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I quoted that, and 
 then quoted Sangamon county later. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Were they 
 taken from the coal report? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes, sir. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— There was 
 some operator said here the other day 
 those figures came from the fiction 
 foundry. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — My memory isn't as 
 good as yours, but your memory will 
 not go back to the time when any op- 
 erator has disputed the accuracy of 
 the total tonnage reported for the state 
 or for any particular district. If there 
 has been any dispute regarding figures, 
 it has been as to the proportions of 
 fine coal, lump, and so on. It's not 
 been on the total figures. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is absolutely cor- 
 rect. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— This, so far as I 
 know. Is absolutely correct. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— May I ask you 
 what is the average of the mine at Vlr- 
 den. I didn't understand it. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— For what? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— The amount of 
 tons of coal to a. keg of powder? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I didn't give those 
 figures, Mr. Delehanty. There is an- 
 other matter that It seems to me is 
 proper to bring out at this time and 
 that is the fact that this pow^der mat- 
 ter is very important to the miner ?^ 
 well as the operator. I see on looking 
 over the reports that in 1899 of the 14 
 fatal accidents in the fifth interstate 
 district nine were caused by falls of 
 coal, rock, and premature blasts, be- 
 ing one fatal accident for each 544,514 
 tons of coal produced. All other causes 
 combined were responsible for the oth- 
 er five accidents. Now, in 1900 of the 
 22 fatal accidents in the same district, 
 16 were caused by falls of rock, coal 
 and premature blasts being one fatal 
 accident to each 301,028 tons of coal pro- 
 duced. All other causes combined were 
 responsible for the six accidents. In 
 1901 the figures are not yet out, but ad- 
 vance sheets show larger loss of life 
 and a smaller amount of coal producr^ 
 for each life lost. You w^ill notice in 
 1899 there were nine fatal accidents, 
 and in 1900 there were 16. Now, this 
 was caused by falls of coal, rock and 
 premature blasts. In my experience, 
 the falling of the roof is caused very 
 largely by an excessive amount of pow- 
 der being used 'which loosens the roof, 
 and causes a fall sooner or later and 
 in my opinion a very large proportion 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 197 
 
 of the accidents were caused by the 
 excessive use of powder in 1900 over 
 that in 1899. Of course it's a matter 
 that no man can determine as to just 
 how many of those accidents were 
 caused by the excessive use of powder, 
 but from my experience I am absolute- 
 ly certain that a majority of them were 
 so caused. 
 
 Now, in our part of the state,— and 
 this is |or the fifth inspection district 
 where all the coal is practically got out 
 by powder the miners in our section 
 are increasing the size of their shots, 
 they are using more powder daily, 
 they have gotten into the habit of us- 
 ing fuse instead of squibs, and the 
 conditions have got so that some means 
 should be adopted both for the safety 
 of the miner and for the protection of 
 the operator to stop the large and dan- 
 gerous use of powder. It blows the 
 <poal to pieces and endangers the lives 
 of the miners. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What is the pur- 
 pose of using the fuse in preference to 
 the squib? 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— To save work to the 
 miner. The way they are doing it now, 
 for Instance, at our Auburn mine they 
 will drill say three of four holes. It 
 used to be the rule that they would 
 fire one of those shots with a squib; 
 they would then go back and fire the 
 othei^s and they would istart with a 
 certain man on each entry to do the 
 firing. By the use of fuse' they can lay- 
 all of those shots at one time and every 
 man in the entry can light them at the 
 same time and they Just simply pick 
 up their dinner buckets and walk oiit 
 of the mine and let the powder do- the 
 rest; and the Lord have mercy on any- 
 body who happens to remain in there. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If the increase 
 in your screenings is attributable to 
 the cheapness of powder and the use 
 of powder, don't you think it Is about 
 time you were making a change? , 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— In what respect? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In letting the 
 miners buy it some place else. If the 
 present method is so unsuccessful, and 
 powder is selling as high now as it 
 ever did on an average, what objections 
 can there be to abandoning the present 
 system of insisting and compelling the 
 miners to buy powder from the com- 
 panies. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We desir^ to 
 abandon the present system, or charge 
 a higher price, so we can get a better 
 product. 
 ' MR. LUKENS:— I might answer that 
 by saying in view of our past exper- 
 ience, we are prepared to believe that 
 there Is absolutely no limit to the waste 
 than could be caused and will be caus- 
 ed by getting a poor grade of powder 
 In the mine. Now, as I said awhile ago, 
 we changed the powder at one of 
 our mines. We let the miners pick 
 out the particular kind of powder they 
 -wanted to use, the particular grade. 
 
 and gave it to them, and the result was 
 we got poorer coal than we did before. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— I wish to state 
 that there is considerable trouble now 
 in regard to the quality of powder that 
 is used in the mine. Now, there have 
 been repeated grievances qn the grade 
 of powder that is used in th^ Vlrden 
 niine, known as the double C po'Wder. 
 They literally refused to use that pow- 
 der any more. It ^ot to be such a poor 
 quality of powder that the men could 
 not do anything with it. I know, my- 
 self, that I have , heard considerable 
 complaints about that powder In the 
 ■ last month. I know from facts that 
 the men refused to take the powder. 
 ■ MR. LUKENS:— Will ycu icxcuse me? 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— Tes. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— They haven't used 
 any of that powder in the last montTi. vv***» 
 
 MR. DELBHANTT:— The men would 
 not use it. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— They had none to 
 use. ' 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:- Well, they sent 
 it down to them and they refused to 
 use it, because I took the whole pack- 
 age myself and took It over and hand- 
 ed it tO' the clerk In. the powder house, 
 and he took it and laid it to one side. 
 
 because the men would not take It; but 
 
 it was there for any man that would 
 use it, but there has been men went 
 home when they could not get single 
 C powder; went home because they 
 would not, use double C powder. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— You are mistaken in 
 your dates. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:- It wasn't a 
 week before I came up here to Peoria, 
 that I seen them, refuse to use that 
 double C powder. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty, 
 there wasn't a keg of double C powder 
 In our mine, nor we didn't have any 
 ion the premisesl ' - 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:- How long? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— A week before you 
 came tO' Peoria. , , , , , 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:- Isn't It a fact 
 that I handle all the powder off of the 
 cage, a good deal of it, me and the cag- 
 ers, and take it up and put in the room. 
 Don't I know grade single C from 
 double C. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I don't know. I 
 think not. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:- 1 think I do. I 
 know I do. There's another thing, Mr. 
 Lukenis, I was called up the oiher 
 night, some week ago or so, Mr. Ryan 
 told me they were calling me up from 
 Virden on the 'phone. It was on one 
 of the grievances they had. They gave 
 me Insitruction enough about the pow- 
 der business before I come up not to 
 telephone me, or else they think my 
 memory is not very good, — to use all 
 honest and honorable means to vote 
 for the open powder market. That was 
 one of the grievances that they In- 
 structed me to vote for and use what 
 influence I could for it. But as far as 
 
198 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 some remarks that have been mjade 
 here on the powder question, about the 
 cheapness of powder, the powder being 
 used more reckless, let me tell you 
 from my experience, I have paid in the 
 C. & A. sub-district as high as $4.75 for 
 a keg- of powder, and I use as much 
 judgment with the powder, and use It 
 as carefully, the powder that I have 
 bought down as low— the cheapest I 
 ever bought it was $1.75. I used the 
 $1.75 powder with the same care and 
 precaution that I did the powder that 
 I paid $4.75 for. So that rule won't 
 work in all cases. 
 
 MR. LiUKENS:— You're an exception 
 to the rule. 
 
 MR. DBL.EHANTT:— I have worked 
 in your mine, Mr. Lukens, and I never 
 did get out less than 100 tons of coal 
 for a keg of powder. One hundred tons 
 of coal. I run a single room, on the 
 east side of the pit, on the ninth north 
 entry. It was a good wide room, and 
 I took it in four shots, and averaged 
 100 tons of coal out of it; but here late- 
 ly, on account of the single C powder, 
 — and it's here lately I say this kick 
 has been made, they have refused to 
 use the single C powder at all. Be- 
 fore that the quality of single C powder 
 was pretty good quality. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Tioiu were talking 
 about double C powder. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTT:— The double C 
 powder I should have said. The sin- 
 gle C is the best grade of powder, Mr. 
 Liukens. v 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— May I ask if the 
 powder that was asked by the Chat- 
 ham men of your company was a 
 standard grade or not? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes, it was all 
 standard that we ever used. 
 
 MR. CAHrLL:— Was it a standard 
 grade ? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes, it's a standard 
 powder. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Wasn't the powder 
 at Chatham brought into the Chatham 
 mine under test as required by our last 
 year's congress? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— There was a test 
 made there, yes, some of the men re- 
 ported in favor of one powder, and 
 some in favor of the other. 
 
 MR. CAHILL: — Didn't you appoint 
 five men and the miners appoint five, 
 and you had the Laflin & Rand powdeT 
 and the Dupont powder both there? You 
 sent to the Dupont Powder Co. and got 
 10 kegs, at least, or 20 kegs of Dupont, 
 and used the best grade of the Laflin 
 & Rand Powder Co.? I saw a report 
 that came from that committee. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I never did. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— There were ten of 
 those men a-ppointed, five by the com- 
 pany and five by the men. Nine of 
 them signed for the Dupont powder. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I am telling you, 
 Mr. Cahill, that before that we got 
 Dupont powder, and that it did not 
 give as good results as the Laflin & 
 Rand. ' 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Mr. Chairman, at 
 the time they were having this con- 
 troversy about the Dupont powder, I 
 believe the company had at that time 
 some 80 or 90 odd rooms in the mine. 
 The mine manager was there at the 
 time that agreement was drawn up— it 
 wasn't drawn up, it was a verbal 
 agreement but there was 56 of those 
 rooms were in at that time; 56 out of 
 some 80 or 90 rooms. We were contin- 
 ually up there on a controversy of 
 some kind, between the company and 
 the men, of the roof being shot in. 
 Since the Dupont powder went into the 
 Chatham mine, I have never been there 
 once. Not once, about the roof, and 
 I have failed to ever hear you make 
 any kick, until the last month or so. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— "W^e had a different 
 mine manager there, Mr. Cahill, which 
 accounted, in my opinion, for the dif- 
 ference. 
 
 MR. CAHILL: — The mine manager 
 surely can't hold the roof up. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— He could see that 
 the men 'took care of it. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— The men contended 
 at Chatham that the Dupont powder 
 would not cut the roof as bad as the 
 other powder you had. I believed at 
 that time it would not, and I still be- 
 lieve it won't do it, because the Laflin 
 & Rand powder was almost too quick a 
 grade of powder for that coal, and I 
 am satisfied that the men throughout 
 the state, — that district at least, — ^would 
 sign the same agreement that is now 
 in the present contract, provided you 
 give us an open market for our pow- 
 der, and we will agree to buy powder 
 of standard grade and quality. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Cahill, when 
 that agreement was made as to these 
 mining rates the powder question was 
 a part of that agreement. It is still 
 a part of it. We claim, or I claim, at 
 least, that the company is entitled to 
 sell that powder, entitled to the profit 
 there is in it, as well as the opportun- 
 -ity of protecting itself against bad 
 powder. And I think it would be a 
 bad thing for the miner if that con- 
 tract was changed because I believe it 
 would result in him paying more for 
 his powder. There are a good many 
 other things that would condemn the 
 thing, that would make it bad for the 
 miner as well as the operator. It 
 would be a mistake to change that par- 
 ticular part of that clause. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I move the previous 
 question. 
 
 (On the motion offered by Mr. Bent, 
 to substitute for the whole the eighth 
 clause of the scale presented by the 
 operators the operators voted Aye, the- 
 miners voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 (On the motion offered by Mr. Rus- 
 sell, to substitute the 18th clause , of 
 the miners' scale for the eight clause 
 of the present agreement the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Aye, and it 
 was lost). 
 
AFTBRNOON Session, March 7. 
 
 199 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. President, I 
 move the eighth clause be stricken 
 from the present agreement. CSecond- 
 ed). I 
 
 MR. BENT:— It isn't In It yet. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 do not think, if I 
 understand It rightly, that we have got 
 any agreement for next year, and we 
 cannot very well strike things from the 
 present agreement, as we want this 
 present agreement to last till Apru; 
 after that there isn't any present agree- 
 ment. I take it for granted that the 
 intention of President Russell's motion 
 Is to strike the powder question from 
 the agreement altogether. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I cerainly do not 
 understand that anything Stricken 
 from it could apply until after April 
 first. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The trouble is, the mo- 
 tion is a little bit ambiguous, — at least 
 voting against it would be ambiguous. 
 Neither the miners nor the operators 
 will support that clause, and I certain- 
 ly would vote with the miners to strike 
 it out as the motion stands; but if Mr, 
 Russell means by his motion that there 
 must not be any powder clause in the 
 prospective contract, we are opposed 
 to it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Russell's motion 
 is that there tie no powder clause in 
 the next agreement. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— That there be no 
 agreement as to the price of powder? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Yes, that is the inten- 
 tion of the motion. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Does It mean 
 there shall be nO' agreement as to the 
 price? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Yes, that's the in- 
 tention of the motion, that the powder 
 question be a wide open question, eli- 
 minated from the agreement altogeth- 
 er. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and it was lost). 
 
 MR. JUSTT: — The secretary of the 
 committee appointed to consider the 
 mining scale at Cable, Sherrard, Gil- 
 christ, "Wanlock and Silvis, is ready to 
 report. 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— Gilchrist, "Wanlock, 
 Sherrard, Cable and Silvis mines, 60 
 cents per ton, with last year's condi- 
 tions. In case of deficiency work, 
 where the miner and mine manager 
 cannot agree as to compensation, the 
 mine committee shall be called In; and 
 if they can not agree, the dispute shall" 
 be carried up under the 13th clause of 
 the present scale. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I move the report 
 be adopted. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I think it ought to 
 be worded a little bit differently, "to 
 be taken up under the provisions pro- 
 vided by next year's agreement for tak- 
 ing up grievances." 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I have been before 
 the committee,, and I know what the 
 understanding of that whole commit- 
 tee is, that whatever may be inserted 
 in our agreement for a grievance 
 
 clause next year, this 13th clause of 
 this year's agreement will apply to this 
 individual case. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and It was adopted). 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I would like to state 
 that the proceedings of that committee 
 were taken in shorthand, with the idea 
 that they were to be made a part of 
 the records of this joint meeting. 
 
 (The proceedings of the Eighth dis- 
 trict meeting, referred to above, will 
 be found in the back part of this vol- 
 ume). 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move that a commit- 
 tee of two operators and two miners 
 be appointed on the powder question, 
 to report to this committee as soon as 
 practicable. (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 (Committee: Messrs. Garrison and 
 Keefer for the operators, and Messrs. 
 Reynolds and J. F. Morris for the min- 
 ers). 
 
 (The secretary read the ninth clause 
 of the present agreement). 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 the ninth clause of the operators' pro- 
 posed scale. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. JACKSON:^I move as a sub- . 
 stitute for the whole the seventh clause 
 of the miners' proposed agreement. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not see why Mr. 
 Bent should get up and make the mo- 
 tion that he did. I believe that as 
 fair an offer as ever could be made to 
 any party was made on this floor to 
 the operators by the miners in regard 
 to the latter part of that agreement; 
 as fair as could be made upon anv 
 subject by anybody. That was that 
 if upon investigation in the field it was 
 proven that we did not pay the opera- 
 tor as much as it cost him to get our 
 tools sharpened, we would pay them 
 an increase; if, on the other hand, it 
 was provep that we paid hinf more 
 money than he paid the blacksmith for 
 the work they did for us, they would 
 give us a decrease. 
 
 MR. SECOR: — I want to just state to 
 Mr. Perry that that offer was accepted 
 on behalf of the niachine operators. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to tell 
 Mr. Secor that I am not representing 
 the machine mine. If you wish to 
 bring in the machi^ne question, bring it 
 in separately. "We did not have it in 
 last year. "We do not have It in this 
 year. Bring it in in a separate clause 
 and we will argue the question with 
 you. You never found us wanting 
 when you wanted to get up an argu- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. BENT: — It's in our clause: 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not think it 
 shows very good grace on the part of 
 the operator, to get up here and tell 
 us of the Increases that they have been 
 granting us in times past, and how 
 they have helped to better our condi- 
 tions, and then come and ask us to grlve 
 them something for nothing. If I was 
 to intimate that any operator on the 
 
200 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 floor had the habit of g-oing out and 
 asking people on the street to give him 
 something' for nothing, they would be 
 awfully insulted, but, gentlemen, you 
 can look' at it in any light you want to, 
 when you come up here and ask me 
 to pay you for work you never per- 
 form. You • are asking me to 
 give you money for nothing. And if 
 you are not willing to accept the of- 
 fer that has been made you in all fair- 
 ness, then we certainly refuse to any 
 longer pay for something we do not 
 get. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The weakness of Mr. 
 Perry's argument is in its ignoring of 
 the fundamental principle that is sup- 
 posed to underlie all these agreements, 
 ^the competitive condition. The op- 
 erators took a look at the adjacent 
 state to the east, and saw that there 
 the blacksmithing agreement provided 
 for 1% per cent of the gross earnings, 
 without any reference whatever to 
 either hand mining or machines, and 
 presented to the miners here the same 
 proposition. Mr. Perry, however, the 
 other day, in debating this matter, 
 practically admitted all that we claim- 
 ed. We are not asking to change, in the 
 bulk of the room and pillar hand mines 
 of the! state, the compensation for 
 blacksmithing. Our offer there is prac- 
 tically the same as the present con- 
 tract. We simply point out the fact 
 that the treatment given to the long 
 wall mdnes and to the machine mines 
 is unequal and not competitive, as com- 
 pared with the room and pillar hand 
 mines of the state, and as compared 
 with Indiana. Mr. Perry attempted 
 to say the other day, as to ihe suppos- 
 ed, profit ot an operator in a certain 
 illustrative case in central Illinois, 
 where it was claimed there was a 
 profit of $109 a month to the operator 
 on the blacksmithing — (I only quote 
 those figures for the sake of the argu- 
 ment, and not because I know about 
 the accuracy) — that there was no rea- 
 son why the men should pay any more 
 than it dost the company to do the 
 w^ork. Now, I say if we assume that 
 in the long wall mines that the com- 
 panies get approximately what it costs 
 to do the work, and you admit that in 
 the room and pillar mines the existing 
 rate involves a material profit, an in- 
 justice is done the long wall men, which 
 the room and pillar operators are not 
 asking to have continued, and a still 
 greater injustice is done the machine 
 operators, who are not paid at all un- 
 der the present contract. Now, in a 
 mine of 300 men, the company gets 
 gross $75 a month for the total black- 
 smithing', although 'no powder Is used 
 at all; yet a gentleman on this floor 
 representing the miners claimed there 
 was an actual profit to the operator In 
 some parts of the state here, at room 
 and pillar mines, of $109 per month. It 
 is grossly unequal. Mr. Perry did not 
 dare to attempt to defend it. He sim- 
 , ply said two wrongs did not make a 
 
 right. We assume it Is a wrong. _We 
 say thl^ is a competitive question, and 
 that the long wall and machine men 
 ought to be treated In precisely the 
 same manner that the room and pillar 
 men are treated. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I did not see fit to 
 defend it, or take up the cudgel laid 
 down in regard to the matter Mr. Bent 
 has spoken about the bther day, be- 
 cause I do not see that there . Is any 
 weight attached to It, as he seems to 
 think there is, let's see if we cannot 
 explain it. W^e have just about as 
 much profit in the long walls under 
 the present agreement, as the $109 was 
 at that place, whatever it was. I can 
 show you mines in our vicinity that 
 pay $100 profit, or very close to it; at 
 least that will pay $75 profit. There 
 is not a mine in our district that re- 
 quires a blacksmith, Mr. Bent, at the 
 forge, eight hours a day, to sharpen 
 tools for the miners. Not one, I don't 
 care how large its output is or how 
 many men it employs. I suppose the 
 largest mines in our field are the mines 
 in the valley, possibly 500 men, over 500 
 men at the face. Some of them have 
 nearer 600 than 500, and the blacksmith 
 is rarely seen sharpening tools In the 
 forenoon. All these mines employ two 
 blackstniths. In the afternoon, from 
 about half past one until half past 
 three, you will see both of those men 
 at the forge sharpening tools; possibly 
 they may remain till four o'clock, some 
 of them work till half past four. That 
 Is the time of day that they sharpen 
 the tools. Rarely do we see men at 
 the forge sharpening tools in the fore- 
 noon. There is not, actually, work 
 done for the miners by both of those 
 blacksmiths, that would amount to six 
 hours per day, — three hours each. 
 
 I have stated before, that the man in 
 the long wall uses but few tools, and 
 you can not say, Mr. Lukens or Mr. 
 Moorshead, whichever it was — it was 
 Mr. Newsam, the other day, that he 
 hated to hear it, because they were us- 
 ing powder, and dropping the old way 
 of mining coal, for it isn't true. We 
 don't use powder there; the man that 
 disputed it has failed to prove his own 
 assertion, and I defy him to prove we 
 use powder In those mines to shoot 
 coal. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— How do they get It 
 out, if they don't use tools and don't 
 use powder? Do they shovel It out? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If you will come up 
 and try shoveling some of it, I will 
 venture you will have the sorest arms 
 ever a man had. We use a pick to get 
 it out. But mining in the clay is not 
 mining coal. There's quite a differ- 
 ence. Now, as to the system upon 
 which the agreements are based, viz: 
 that of competition, I know that the 
 drift of Mr. Bent's argument is this, 
 that in the aggregate we are competi- 
 tive, the northern and southern fields; 
 that if we pay too much for one thing 
 
Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 201 
 
 m one field, the other field possibly 
 pays tqo little; that when we come to 
 lump It off, In the main it all sets 
 down to the competitive basis. That 
 may be true. It may noit be true, I have 
 no means of knowing whether you are 
 relatively placed or not. Tou tell us 
 you are. I do not know what any of 
 you people sell your coal for. Tou 
 wouldn't let me know if you could, any- 
 way, because you would say it was 
 none of my business, and you- would 
 be perfectly right, but we believe you 
 are not relatively placed; that you peo- 
 ple in the northern field are placed too 
 Jow upon the scale today, and we be- 
 lieve we have proved the fact on this 
 floor. If you were not, I would like to 
 know why there is such a scramble to 
 get in the northern field, and why it is 
 people will invest the great capital they 
 have invested there; also why it is we 
 work — I was going to say day and 
 night, while people in the other parts 
 of the state sleep day and night. I be- 
 lieve they are not only able to drop the 
 five cents, but they are able to pay five 
 cents more per ton for their coal. If 
 you are not going to allow us anv 
 more for the coal, to place us relatively 
 with the rest of the district, then take 
 off what we are paying you too much 
 for our blacksmithing. Let us get 
 equal some way, Mr. Bent. It is a 
 poor way, anyhow, to fix up competi- 
 tions. If you are not ^placed right, 
 then the price should haye been taken 
 ■ fC the mining price, not added on in 
 fXi off-handed round Robin Hood barn 
 way. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Mr. Perry used my 
 name in this matter, and I wish to 
 show him where Mr. Newsam is per- 
 fectly honest in this matter. Mr. 
 Newsam made the statement the other 
 day that he would let the men have 
 the blacksmith shop, have the anvils 
 and tools, at every one of his mines, 
 and them to pay their own blacksmith. 
 I do not believe any man can offer any 
 fairer. I wish to show him that 
 Mr. Newsam at one mine hires two 
 blacksmiths. He did expect tO' get. one 
 as a helper, but the miners said no, 
 they're both first-class men and he had 
 to pay them that scale. According to 
 the scale that Mr. Perry speaks of now 
 being a very good scale, 4-10 cent per 
 man, Mr. Newsam would get* $1.60 for 
 blacksmithing per 400 tons. He will 
 pay out $4.80 for the work done. He 
 will furnish the flres that would prob- 
 ably cost him 30 cents. I do not think 
 it would cost him any less. Now, I 
 want to know which side of the led- 
 ger he would be on at night. I will 
 state here, as far as shooting coal Is 
 concerned, that all through this dis- 
 trict there are a great many mines of 
 200 tons and less, a great many of 
 them, and there's a few over 400 tons. ' 
 It is a plain case here that the black- 
 smithing on your scale, especially after 
 you have placed two men, two black- 
 smiths on the scale at $2.40 a day, there 
 
 would be no second man, they would 
 be all first-class men, you cannot have 
 any helpers. If a man can get hold 
 of a hammer and sharpen a pick, the 
 miners class him at the top price. They 
 haven't any second men at all. Now, 
 I wish to say here, gentlemen, that I do 
 not believe there is; an operator in the 
 shooting coal in this district that would 
 not offer the same chance I have offer- 
 ed. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would just like to 
 state, for the benefit of Mr. Newsam, 
 that it is useless to get up and make 
 a proposition that he knows the oper- 
 ators as an association will not' stand 
 by. They had better be careful, for 
 that proposition will come to come if 
 they are not .careful. I know I have 
 made that proposition as often as I 
 have fingers on my hand. They laugh- 
 ed at me. He knows that, and that 
 the output of their mines would be 
 curtailed to such an extent they would 
 not stand for it. What is the use, like 
 little boys, of getting up and making 
 propositions simply for a grandstand 
 play. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— This movement 
 1 believe, is founded on a competitive 
 basis; and if it is true, -I don't think 
 there should be any more favors grant- 
 ed to eastern operators for pick shar- 
 pening, or anything of that kind, than 
 are granted to* the operators of the 
 state of Illinois. I have here the inter- 
 state convention report held in Colum- 
 bus, Ohio, January 31 tO' February 9, 
 1901, and find that in Pennsylvania, 
 on pick mining, they pay 1% per cent 
 of their wages for sharpening picks, 
 or 1% cents on the dollar. I find in 
 Pennsylvania for machine mined coal, 
 the "miners pay % per cent on the dol- 
 lar for the thick veiin and 1 per cent, or 
 1-cent on the dollar, for the thin, vein. 
 I cannot understand, Mr. Chairman, if 
 we are going to continue this move- 
 ment, which is supposed to be based 
 upon competitive conditions why the 
 operators in one state shall have this 
 so-called advantage in pick sharpen- 
 ing and it be denied to the operators 
 of the state of Illinois. Certainly if 
 it's fair in one case it is not unfair in 
 the other. I think the operators of 
 Illinois have got a gooa case, a wAl 
 grounded case, to come before this conc 
 ventlon and ask the miners to do quite 
 as much for them, as the miners do 
 for the operators of Pennsylvania. 
 Why not? That's the question. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I do not think we 
 ought to waste any more time. Mr. 
 Moorshead speaks only of those feat- 
 ures that are favorable to eastern op- 
 erators. He doesn't say anything 
 about the things that are ■ favorable to 
 the operators of Illinois. The scale is 
 hot uniform in anything, but while Ill- 
 inois has some things that are more 
 favorable to the miners and less- favor- 
 able to the operators, it Is also true 
 there are some things in other states 
 
202 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 7. 
 
 that are favorable to the miners and 
 ag-ainst the operators. We are not 
 going: to vote here to reduce the min- 
 ing' price. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Will you remember 
 that please when we take up the pow- 
 der question agrain? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That's not a part 
 of the mining price. It doesn't pre- 
 vail in other states. It strikes me 
 there is entirely too much time lost on 
 this, as well as other propositions, that 
 come up here. Prom the position tak- 
 en by the operators a couple of days 
 ago, there ought to be no discussion at 
 all. If the miners were all of my mind 
 they would not discuss these proposi- 
 tions. You have asked for a reduction 
 in the earning capacity of the miner, 
 after you have Issued your ultimatum 
 th"at you would not increase the earn- 
 ing pdwer. The miners ought not to 
 consider it for a moment. If they 
 were of my mind they would not. If 
 you give us an ultimatum, and it stands 
 the miners ought to give you theirs. 
 
 MR, LUKENS:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Mitchell a question. If he be- 
 lieves the seven-cent differential is fair 
 for Illinois on tbe competitive stand- 
 point? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That being the case, 
 how can you consistently oppose a 
 charge for blacksmithing in machine 
 mines. As a matter of fact, your ma- 
 chine differential is not seven cents a 
 ton. It's 6.4 cents. Now, if seven cents 
 is fair, there ought to be a charge for 
 sharpening thioee tools, enough to make 
 the seven cents. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What tools do 
 you mean? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Picks and drills. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— How many picks 
 do they use on a machine? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— They do not use 
 many picks, but they use drills. Tney 
 use as many picks in machine mining 
 as in hand mining. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That's Included 
 in the seven cents a ton. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:- Ml*. Mitchell, you 
 haven't answered my question. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You haven't bad 
 any price here for sharpening picks 
 'On machine mines. We are askinpr a 
 renewal of the agreement there. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Are ylou asking 
 a renewal of the agreement on long 
 wall mines too? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:- That's one question 
 I never could understand, why the man 
 who sharpens tools for a machine mine 
 isn't as much entitled to pay for it as 
 the man who sharpens tools for a hand 
 mine. I wasn't on earth when It was 
 agreed to. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It was a, mutual 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Noi it was a forced 
 agreement. Now, there has been a good 
 deal •dt 'talk about the profit accruing 
 to the operator on sharpening these 
 tools. I want to give you some figures 
 
 from one mine' where they keep all 
 those things so they can get at them. 
 This is for nine mJomths of the present 
 year, and the cost for sharpening the 
 tools was ?700, and this does not include 
 anything for taking the tools to and 
 from or transferring to different parts 
 of the mine, fuel for fires, blowers, 
 emery wheels, etc. That 6-10 cents per 
 ton yielded the operator Ion the coal 
 produced for that period $708. Now, 
 gentlemen, there is a case where the 
 cost to the operator was $700, and he 
 got $708 out of it, and he had the work 
 of taking those tools to and from the 
 mine, getting them dtown into the mine, 
 nothing for feul, nothing for power, 
 blower, nothing for the wearing out 
 of his emery wheel, nothing for the 
 use of his machinery and blacksmith 
 shop, or anything of that kind. These, 
 gentlemen, are actual figures and not 
 guess work, as a good many of the 
 figures produced by the miners on that 
 point. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Lukens, I want to 
 ask you a question: What figures pro- 
 duced by the miners have been guess 
 work? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— All of them. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— In what way? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The figures Mr. 
 Perry produces are guess work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— How so? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— He says that very 
 seldom the blacksmith is sharpening 
 tools in the morning. I wtoiuld like to 
 ask Mr. Perry if he sits down and 
 watches those blacksmiths to know 
 what they do? I will venture to say 
 and not know a thing about it, that 
 they do sharpen lots of tools in the 
 morning. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Perry specified the 
 mines he spoke of. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— They are simply 
 guess wtork. He don't know anything 
 about it, except as he incidentally hap- 
 pens to see those blacksmiths once in 
 a while. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Leaving that part of 
 it out, then, we certainly know the 
 number of men employed in those 
 mines. We know the number of black- 
 smiths employed at the mines. We 
 know all their time Is not taken up 
 sharpening miners' tools, and we know 
 the amount of m'oney that the miners 
 pay at the mines spoken of by Mr. 
 Perry, that it more than pays the 
 wages of all the blacksmiths at the 
 mine. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— There's a whole lot 
 of expense connected with this work, 
 that Mr. Perry and the other miners 
 know nothing about at all, and have 
 no means of knowing. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to say 
 that I am nlot in the habit of getting 
 up and talking from guess work. If 
 the gentleman doubts the assertions 
 I made, I will go to the expense, it 
 he is willing to go to the expense, to 
 satisfy him. 
 
Morning SESSiot^', March 8. 
 
 203 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I'm already satis- 
 fied. 
 
 MR. PERRT:— If you are already 
 satisfied, I would like to tell you one 
 thing- else, that I have very good means 
 to find out these things. I am at those, 
 mines; I haven't been employed inside 
 of the mines for some length of time, 
 but I am at some one of them nearly 
 every day when I'm at home, on top, 
 and as to what is connected with the 
 cost of blacksmithing I am pretty well 
 acquainted. I happened to have charge 
 of the top lof a mine for about four 
 years and had blacksmiths working-. 
 I've a pretty good idea what it costs, 
 It's not guess work, if you please. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The mines Mr. Perry Is 
 speaking about, are among the largest, 
 and I guess the largest lonsr wall mines 
 in the state, and what the figures would 
 show there would not be mateWal for 
 the long wall mines of the field as a 
 whole. There is a certain amtoiunt of 
 exaggeration in estimates of this kind, 
 and a part of it is unintentional. 
 Every man in business knows he will, 
 even with all his experience behind 
 him, under-estimate the cost of rtoin^ 
 anything, any little bit . of contract 
 work. You never get it done for what 
 you think, you can, and there are de- 
 tails of expense that are not taken into 
 account. It has been said no tools 
 are -sharpened in the forenoon, t do 
 not know what " is done at mines in 
 general, but I do not see how they 
 can do differently frloim, what they do 
 with us. The rapid sharpening of tools 
 ot-eurs at the majority of rtilnes in the 
 afternoon. There is a process of draw- 
 ing out of the steel, which is done i'n 
 the forepart of the day, -flrhich Is done 
 any time when the blacksmith has time 
 to do it. The steel wears down and 
 needs tloi be drawn out, and that is a 
 slower process, and is being done grad- 
 ually, all the time. 
 
 MR. PERRT: — Just one word more: 
 I would like to state, for Mr. Bent's 
 information, that I have been at his 
 mine, I think, five times. I have been 
 there in the forenoon, I think, three 
 times. In the last five or six or seven 
 months, possibly. Each time I went in 
 the blacksmith shop, and I didn't even 
 see a miner's total in the forenoon- when 
 I happened to be there, but In the af- 
 ternoon they were sharpening tools. In 
 the forenoon neither of your men were 
 employed sharpening tools when I hap- 
 pened to be there. Of course, that may 
 have been the only time that it hap- 
 pened that they were not sharpening 
 tokDls in the forenoon, the times I hap- 
 pened to be there. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I do not say It is .ll- 
 ways being done, but I do say, speaking 
 of a number of mines I kno-w about, 
 that at necessary intervals the black- 
 smith undertakes to, put all the picks 
 in the mine In good order, by drawing 
 them out, which is more deliberate 
 work than the daily sharpening of the 
 
 tools, and that is done In addition to 
 anything that has been spoken of on 
 this floor; 
 
 (On the motion offered by Mr. Jack- 
 son, to substitute for the whole the 
 seventh clause of thej miners' proposed 
 scale, the operators voted Nta', the 
 miners voted Aye, and It was lost.) 
 
 (On the motion offered by Mr. Bent, 
 to substitute the ninth clause of the 
 operators' proposed scale, for the ninth 
 clause of the present agreement, the 
 operators voted Aye, the miners voted 
 No, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 ninth clause of the present agreement 
 be adopted. (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 Adjourned to 9 a. m. the following 
 day. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 8, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order at 
 9 a. m. by Chairman Ryan. . 
 
 The tenth clause of the present state 
 agreement was read to the meteting and 
 a motion was made to adopt. (Sec- 
 onded and carried.) 
 
 The eleventh clause of the present 
 agreement was read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I mtave as a substitute 
 the eleventh clause of the operators' 
 scale, which embodies, specifically the 
 Columbus day wage scale with twenty 
 per cent added. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is not a word in 
 the eleventh clause of the operators' 
 scale, that adds to or alters in any 
 way the Columbus inside day wage 
 scale, which has already been re- 
 afiirmed. The only difference between 
 that clause and the clause in the pres- 
 ent contract is that it Is specific in- 
 stead of general. 
 
 MR. JACKSON:— I move to amend 
 the substitute offered by Mr. Bent by 
 adding the underground day scale of 
 the miners' proposed agreement; tliat 
 is the eighteenth clause, the under- 
 ground day scale. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (Springfield):— I want 
 to make an explanation of the amend- 
 ment to the substitute of Mr. Bent. I( 
 we want to stop friction for the coming 
 year now ' is the place and time to dlo 
 it. The amendment we offer is a scale 
 for those for whom no scale has been 
 made In the last year's or the present 
 year's agreement. It is necessary, if 
 we reach an agreement at all, to have 
 that agreement cover and include all 
 bottom day labor. That is the reason 
 why we offer this amendment. If there 
 should be any difference in regard to 
 the scale that we offer, it would be 
 well that it would- be taJcen up; or in 
 all cases, I am of the opinion that the 
 clause here mentioned shall be in the 
 scale we adopt, for underground labor 
 and I hope you will give it some con- 
 sideration. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The operators 
 are opposed to any change in the Co- 
 lumbus agreement, by the addition to 
 or by taking away from It any word 
 
204 
 
 Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 in any particular. The clause we have 
 in our scale is the Columbus agree- 
 ment in its entirety, not changed in 
 any particular whatever, and we want 
 it to remain that way. If any addi- 
 tion, or I may say if any additional 
 classes of labor are required by the 
 miners toi be added to any new agree- 
 ment we make, we want It put in 
 separately and away from the Colum- 
 bus agreement entirely, and I think 
 that is a very fair proposition from 
 the operators. It will save trouble in 
 the future and it will keep the enact- 
 ment of the Columbus agreement en- 
 tirely settled, as it should be. Tbcre 
 is no question whatever about that. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Moorshead 
 has stated that the operators do not 
 propose to add anything tlo the Colum- 
 bus agreement. I wish to say on the 
 part of the miners, we want a scale 
 for the classes of labor mentioned in 
 our scale. We do not propose to give 
 them up from our organization and 
 we want, if possible, to maJie a scale 
 for them. We are not objecting to 
 the Columbus agreement; we do not in- 
 tend to. That is what we ask and that 
 is what we want. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The operators 
 have not said that they will not con- 
 sider the scale for classes of under- 
 ground day labor not classified in the 
 Columbus agreement. They simply 
 say that instofar as the classes of labor 
 included in the Columbus agreement 
 are concerned we want them kept 
 separately, and no additions made to it 
 ir\ any sense. We want the Columbus 
 agreement to stand by itself absolutely. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say, in the 
 absence of President Russell, to repeat ' 
 what Vice-President Reynolds has said. 
 We are certainly going to retain those 
 men in our organization and this is 
 the time for ytou to understand what 
 our position . is. We will insist upon 
 them getting a fair rate of wages. 
 While you have not conceded the mak- 
 ing of a scale in these joint meetings 
 for ' the mine examiner, sinkers and 
 other classes of labor, we have a scale 
 established for, them in all the mines 
 throughout the state and we will keep 
 them in our organization and make 
 a scale for them and this is the place 
 to make it. It strikes me, instead of 
 discussing this matter, these queistlons 
 now ought to be referred to a commit- 
 tee and that committee get down to 
 work and not lose three or four hours 
 on this discussion. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We have not 
 said that we would not discuss It, nor 
 have we said we would not make a 
 scale of wages for that class of labor 
 We want the re-enactment of the Co- 
 lumbus agreement separately from 
 anything else. I do not think there is 
 any room for discussion. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That Is practically the 
 position I have taken. You have said 
 you did not oppose a scale for that 
 class of labor. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We will take 
 that matter up separately but we want 
 to pass the Columbus agreement here. 
 If we pass that we can take up the 
 other matter and you can refer that to 
 a committee and do what you please 
 with it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The question of your 
 jurisdiction comes up under another 
 clause not yet adopted. The question 
 of making a scale for people not men- 
 tito'ned in the Columbus day wage scale 
 is a qjiestion that will come up in an- 
 other paragraph. We deny absolutely 
 your right to amend In any way the 
 Columbus inside day wage scale. We 
 want it oassed in its entirety. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Have the miners at- 
 tempted to amend, in the national con- 
 vention, or here, the inside day wagt 
 scale, in any manner? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I do not say that you 
 have sought to do so in Intent, but the 
 gentleman justed moved an amend- 
 ment iM the Columbus inside day wage 
 scale and that we deny. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — What I meant was the 
 original Columbus inside day wage 
 scale. Have we attempted to Interfere 
 in it? The amendment offered does 
 not change the price of a solitary man 
 or boy, in' the Columbus inside day 
 wage scale. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— But it adds 
 additional labor and we do not want 
 that added to the Columbus scale. We 
 want it separate. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— We will pass 
 ' that over for the present if It is sat- 
 isfactory. 
 
 The twelfth clause >of the present 
 agreement was read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — ^We move as a substi- 
 tute the twelfth clause of the opera- 
 tors' scale. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I believe it is ;.ime 
 we auit all foolishness and let us get 
 down to work. It is simply that the 
 operators think we are very easy 
 marks or else we are not every bright, 
 which I will agree to. They must think 
 — in fact, I am at a loss to understand 
 why they come here and present a 
 clause like that which they have offered 
 in place of this one, and once for all 
 I do not propose to waste any time 
 with a clause like that. They want 
 our men to go to the face and work 
 regardless of whether the mine runs or 
 not. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Of course Mr. 
 Perry will agree to get through with 
 any foolishness. I think this matter 
 of the miners going to the face whether 
 the mine is working or not is some- 
 thing to talk about. Very nearly every 
 local we have has a different ruling on 
 that point. It is different In the south, 
 in the north and differently fixed all 
 over. Is it possible that an operator 
 can quit pulling coal out at half past 
 two in the afternoon, and that a miner 
 can do justice tl> his shot, jus:tloe to 
 himself, justice to the salvation of his 
 life ahd others, as Important, and be 
 
Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 205 
 
 out of that mine at three o'clock. 
 These are the' ruling's. Some say, if 
 you have all your coal out of the mines 
 at three o'clock, you cannot get any 
 more. The miners canntot give you any 
 more and you can be out of the mine 
 at four o'clock. That is another ruling. 
 In my experience as a miner I never 
 saw the time that I could load all my 
 coal out by 2:30, have it all put and 
 do justice to myself and my shots and 
 jusyce to my next day's work and be 
 out in half an hour. These were our 
 rulings. I do not see why the agree- 
 ment of eight hours per day and «ix 
 days per week is not enough without 
 adding this trouble. I believe' when 
 the scale was made jt was meant that 
 way. I do not believe it meant any- 
 thing else. It was done for the time, 
 but I could not tell why. It has been 
 claimed that some operators have 
 forced the rule of forcing the rtien In 
 the mines when the nnine did not work, 
 and when they could not iind anything 
 for them to do. Here is a rule we want 
 to cut out. I never knew in my experi- 
 ence, in all my life, when the agree- 
 ment was made which would. state a 
 certain number of hours and so many 
 days a week and it could be changed 
 to the rulings that is made in our 
 locals. I wtould like to get through 
 with this thins and see that these 
 rulings cannot be made In every local 
 differently. I want the same chance 
 that other operator^ have. I want nO' 
 more and I cannot get any more and 
 this is the reason I think this should 
 go in the agreement. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Did you understand 
 when the eight-hour work day was 
 agreed to that It meant more than 
 eight hours? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Eight hours at the* 
 working face. 
 
 MR. RT AN:— "Why do you want the 
 miners to work more than eight hours? 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I want eight hours 
 at the working face. I could not ask 
 for any more according to the agree- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- The above scale of 
 mining prices is based upon an eight- 
 hour work day, and it is definitely 
 understiood that this shall mean eight 
 hours' work at the face, exclusive of 
 noontime, six days a week, or forty- 
 eight hours in a week, provided the 
 mine desires to work, and no local rul- 
 ing shall in any way effect this agree- 
 ment or impose conditions affecting the 
 same." Mr. Newsam, what does that 
 mean? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- That means to fire 
 in the eight hours' time, in my opin- 
 ipn; not in the six and a half hours' 
 time nor in the seven hours' time. That 
 means to fire at four o'clock, or what- 
 ever hour may be designated in the 
 eight hours' work at the face.. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Did not it mean that 
 the miner must fire his shots after the 
 eight hours? 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I would not think 
 
 so. I do not think it takes only a few 
 minutes to fire the shots if the miner 
 would fire according to the way they 
 should fire, but when a man won't fire 
 according to the ruling of the mine. 
 it takes time. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— This is not the ques- 
 tion I raised. It seems to me that the 
 operators meant this to mean just what 
 It says and it says very plainly that 
 the miners must work more than eight 
 htours. It says, "No miner shall fire 
 any shots before the close of the shift 
 where it is the rule to fire once a day, 
 or before the close of each half shift 
 at mines where it is the mis' to fire 
 twice each day; and the option of de- 
 ciding whether the firing shall be once 
 or twice a day shall be with the oper- 
 ator." . Don't that mean where they fire 
 once or twice a day at the close of the 
 , shift, at the end of the eight hours, 
 the miner must remain in the mine and 
 fire his shots. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Exactly. I 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Without discussing this 
 thing, we might just as well state lo 
 you the miners will never vote for it. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— On the other hand, 
 I cannot force them to and do not 
 expect to. I only state that it says 
 eight hours at the working face: If a 
 miner fires at four o'clock and starts 
 out, that means eight hours and no 
 more at the face. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It says here to fire af- 
 ter the close of the shift; it means after 
 the eight hours. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— If he fires at four 
 o'clock, what does it mean? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It means more than 
 eight hours' work. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I admit, Mr. Ryan, 
 that the miners n'or operators cannot 
 make a watch out of a coal mine. How 
 many times' in a day, or how many 
 times in a week is it that the miners 
 are at the working face eight hours. 
 How many times are they at the bot- 
 tom of the shaft at seven o'clock. All 
 of these things have to be considered 
 on both sides. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— There Is not a 
 mine in the state of Illinois today, but 
 what the men go down in the morning 
 into the mine in plenty of time to reach 
 the face before the starting time. If 
 they start to work at the regular start- 
 ing time and they work all through the 
 day, and fire their shots at the end of 
 the working time, they work at least 
 fifteen or twenty minutes mtore than 
 the eight hours. If that means eight 
 hours, the miners are working at the 
 face when , they fire the shots. ' It is 
 the most Important part of his day's 
 work, the firing of a shot. If a miner 
 is compelled to fire his shots after the' 
 eight hours is up and he had a certain 
 time to get out of the mine, he would 
 be pushed so that I would venture to ' 
 say that the accidents of the minars 
 would increasei over half what they are 
 now. 
 MR. NEWSAM:- Mr. Reynolds says 
 
206 
 
 Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 not a mine in the state of Illinois but 
 what the men are down in time to bu 
 at the working face on time. I would 
 like to first find the mine where the 
 men are at the working' places on time. 
 I never saw them. It is a fact that if 
 the men start down in the mine when 
 the whistle blows they cannot be on 
 time at the working face. ' 
 
 MR. PICTON:— As to Mr. Newsam or 
 anyone else talking about the driver 
 coming out five or ten minutes before 
 the quitting time, I want to state' that 
 in this district, if I had my way, the 
 operators would harness those mules 
 and take care of them as they should 
 do. In nearly every instance, ihe 
 driver puts in tovertime above the eight 
 hours and they think to make a kick 
 on the driver coming into the barn five 
 minutes early in the evening to leave 
 the men out and get finished inside 
 the eight hours. I do not think there 
 is any justice in it. As far as that 
 clause of the operators is concerned, 
 I want to state I will vo'te against 
 it forever. 
 
 MR. SECOR:— Ton have stated that 
 it is nb use to talk on this matter any 
 further. At the same time, there are 
 many things connected with it that 
 should be considered. The plea is set 
 up here that a man must not worK 
 over eight hours. What I want to 
 say, or what I want to call your atten- 
 tion to, is you would like to have that 
 rule say that they must fire before 
 the close of the shift. The' mine in- 
 spector comes to the mine and posts 
 up a notice, in which he says the firing 
 shall be done at the close. That is the 
 law and he has a right to make it; 
 we cannot change it. If the law is vio- 
 lated and you are hurt then we have to 
 pay for it. We go into court and say 
 that Mr. Ryan, Mr. Mitchell, or Mr. 
 Hefti, has ttold Us to Are before the 
 close of the shift. They say it does 
 not count any In this court, as they 
 are not authorized to change the law; 
 they have not been given the power to 
 change the law. You go to the in- 
 spector and ask him to change these 
 things. Now, in donsldering this thing 
 you should at least take into account 
 that part of it. More than that, the 
 question of violating this agreement. 
 It is like a man who can see a flv on 
 a barn door a mile away but cannot 
 see the barn door. The agreement says 
 that every day hand shall do full eight 
 hours' work. If you are going to in- 
 sist that the firing is to be done in 
 the eight hours some classes of labor 
 cannot work full eight hours. If it is 
 something else we are to have, let us 
 understand it. It ought not to be that 
 way. We ought not have to violate 
 the law t'o carry out this agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Secor says 
 the law compels a man to fire at the 
 end of the shift, but it does not say 
 it shall be inside of the eight hours or 
 after the eight hours. 
 MR. SECOR:— I did not say the !aw 
 
 said the firing was to be done at the 
 end of the shift. I said when the in- 
 spector put up a notice to that effect, 
 that becomes a law. The Inspectbr has 
 that authority. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS :— Has the inspector 
 who inspects the mine put up a notice 
 that the firing should be done at the 
 end of the shift, or is that the mine 
 manager's rule? 
 
 MR. SECOR: — When the gentleman 
 made that rule that we should fire in 
 the eight hours, I asked him to change 
 his order and he would not do It. I .".m 
 between those tw\> fires and I do not 
 consider that it is a scrape we ought 
 to get into. The inspector put It up. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I wish to say that 
 in my experience as a miner I never 
 yet saw the Inspector put up a notice 
 at the mine stating what time the 
 miners should fire their shots. It 5s 
 customary to fire at the end of the 
 shift but when a miner is firing his 
 shots, he is working, and when 
 he fires outside of the eight 
 hours he is working more than 
 eight hours a day. It is not giving 
 them the time to fire that is safe. They 
 often have to go back after the shots 
 are fired to see if their timbers are all 
 right. That is generally when men are 
 killed. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— You are a practical 
 miner. You think the men should be 
 out in a half hour after he maJies his 
 shots. What kind of a rule would -hat 
 be? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— One-half hour af- 
 ter the mine quits. The men can fire 
 their shots in a haJf hour. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- After the mine 
 quits. Supposing you have no coal in 
 the mine and you have a ruling that 
 the mine shall quit; you have no coal 
 and the miners have not got any to 
 give you, but must make that coat 
 ready in a half hour and fire those 
 shots. Is that safe? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— W^e are speaking 
 ■of firing the shots at the end of the 
 eight-hour day. I was a practical man 
 and can fire a shot in the half hour. 
 If your shot is prepared you can fire 
 in the half hour. I want to ask you 
 a question, where is it that the miners 
 are required to fire a shot in the half 
 hour. You cannot show the rule. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I have several. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— There Is no rule 
 in this state to that effect. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I dk> not like to get 
 up here to differ with Mr. Newsam but 
 no such rule is prevailing at his mines; 
 if there is I know nothing of It. They 
 are supposed to shoot thirty minutes 
 after the mine quits. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Did you not makei 
 that ruling at Hanna City that the 
 mine quit hoisting at 2:30 and the men 
 must be out at three o'clock. I have 
 a letter from the superintendent that 
 that was the ruling at Hanna City but 
 he kicked against it. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— If Mr. NewsanVs 
 
Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 207 
 
 superintendent made that statement 
 he is surely mistaken, because I never 
 made any such ruling in Hanna City. 
 Mr. Newsam knows the ruling in this 
 district here, and there Is tone at ihe 
 present time, at his mine at Kingston, 
 and that applies to every mine in the 
 sub-district. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— The intent of fhe 
 resolution is not to be applied to that 
 which you are applying It with this 
 argument here. The intent Is that an 
 operator shall have a right to load 
 about one flat of coal in the morninj; 
 and have the plower to tell his insn 
 to remain in that way until the regu- 
 lar quitting time at night. We -will 
 go home from this convention without 
 an agrreemetot before you get a club of 
 that kind to hold over my head. ■ 
 
 MR. BBATTIE:— I want to ask Mr. 
 Newsam a question. I want to know 
 If the mine inspector is authtorized to 
 go into the mines and post up a notice 
 telling what time in the day the men 
 shall fire, or tell them toi Are after 
 the quitting time, or whether it is the 
 mine manager who says what time 
 they shall Are. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I do not think the 
 mine inspector has any power to say 
 any hour in the day. It is specifically 
 stated in the mining law that the mine 
 manager shall have charge of and shall 
 state what the time shall be for the fir- 
 ing of the shots. 
 
 MR. J. J. WILSON:— I want ttoi say, 
 as far as the flrlns is concerned, my 
 remarks of yesterday morning is in 
 regard to the ventilation of the mines. 
 At one time I was called upon, in this 
 locality, where the mine inspector had 
 suggested that they should Are once a 
 day instead off twice, and at ten o'clock 
 in the morning I went down to visit 
 the pit dommittee about a grievance 
 in that inine. I believe there was 24 
 or 36 feet of width in the room. I was 
 in the center and it was at teft o'clock 
 in the morning and I could not see one 
 individual but I oould hear them 
 twelve or fourteen feet from me. If 
 this matter of shooting is 'to be) left 
 "to the operators let me say it is going 
 to work a detriment to the men thare 
 in those mines. I do not say that all 
 mines are alike but from my experi- 
 ence and observations there is not 
 ventilation sufficient and up to the re- 
 quirements of the law. Wheref there 
 was two men In a twenty-four foot 
 rotom they did not have sufficient air 
 to shoot twice a day and we requested 
 a year ago that you would make it a 
 single room system, and so far as leav- 
 ing it to the option of the operator 
 when the men should Are and low 
 they should Are I am n'ot with you. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Is It. the rule in my 
 mines that the mine manager put two 
 men in a twenty-four foot room? 
 
 MR. W^ILiSON:— I have explained 
 myself and I think instead of two men, 
 on« was sufficient. That was in the 
 Star mine at ten o'clock in the morning. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Did you see two 
 men in the room? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I could not see ihe 
 men. I believe there was twt© brothers 
 In t^at room. One was on the pit com- 
 mittee. It was along the first o;f the 
 year and about teta o'clock. I went 
 and got permission to go into the mine 
 and when I got into the room I could 
 n'ot And the committeemen. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I want to state that 
 it is not a rule In my mine to work 
 two men In a room. I want to state 
 it plainly. I am surprised at that ex- 
 pression. If two brothelrs want to 
 work together we never object; if a 
 father and son wants to worlt. together 
 we never Oibject. I want ito say for 
 years back I have made it a rule to 
 work singly all possible In the rooms 
 and I still say the same thing now. 
 As to the condition of the mine he 
 speaks of the report has been made to 
 me very good at all times. There was 
 a time back that the bottom of the 
 escapement shaft got In a bad shape. 
 That is the only report I know of 
 from that inlne. The inspectors' report 
 will tell the conditions of that mine. 
 
 MB. MORRIS (of Duquoin):— I feel 
 that we are getting away from the ques- 
 tion that is before us in discussing the 
 mining laws or the ventilation of a 
 mine. The proposition that is before 
 us, presented by the' operators, I de- 
 sire to say that the oi>erators them- 
 selves before the year was up, would 
 want to strike from the scale. A.ny 
 law that would compel the miners af- 
 ter once going into the mines to remain 
 there eight hours before firing, those 
 miners would come out the mine after 
 the mine quit running and leave their 
 shots unflred and thei result would be 
 a shortage of coal for the next day. 
 It is unfair to ask the miners to agree 
 with you that they will remain eight 
 hours In the mine T*hen there is onlv 
 work for two or three' hours and they 
 would not live up to it. They would 
 come out without firing. The proposi- 
 tion presented by the operattors sim- 
 ply says that they shall remain there 
 until firing time, regardless of the 
 number of hours the mine runs. 
 
 MR. BENT:— There has been two or 
 three provisions discussed here and I 
 arise to say that the Morris brothers 
 both mistake the Intent of the resolu- 
 tion presented by the Operators. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Tou may Include us all 
 In that. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The miners mistake the 
 intent of the operators' resolution. It 
 is not the proposition of the operators 
 that when the miners are called into 
 the mine In the morning and the mine 
 shuts down within a short number of 
 hours, that the miners shall remain in 
 the mine for the eight hours in order 
 to do their shooting at the end of the 
 eight Jiours. We claim that when t.he 
 mine shuts down that an individual 
 miner has a right to remain in that 
 mine as long as he has work to do at 
 
208 
 
 Morning Session, March 8, 
 
 the working face, whether that is an 
 hour longer or the full eight hours, 
 or whether or not the shaft is hoisting 
 coal. We say any labor performed at 
 the working face, shooting or other 
 kind lof labor, can be' done within the 
 limits of the eight hours. 
 
 MR. MORRIS (of Duquoin) :— The 
 i operators in their remarks are differ- 
 ent. Mr. Newsam of the operators 
 has an argument and now Mr. Bent 
 offers another solution. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I do not understand 
 that Mr. Newsam says that if the mine 
 runs two hours in the morning, the 
 miner must stay in eight hours. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— The clause should be 
 withdrawn and it should be made to 
 read just what It means. It does not 
 read that way now. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I think this matter 
 should be referred to a committee. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I move that the mat- 
 ter be referred to a special committee. 
 
 MR. RUSSELI.:— I believe that it is 
 only a waste of time. I believe the 
 operators know the intent; they know 
 the object of the miners in making a 
 rule in that respect. There is no ase 
 for iht, miners and operators to .'ay 
 they are going to uphold an eight-hour 
 day and then by a system of work de- 
 stroy the effect of that eight-hour day. 
 If a miner can go in a mine In the 
 morning and the mine works two hours 
 and then closes down or stops hoisting, 
 and that miner is allowed to stay in the 
 mine and make coal and fill his room 
 with coal and load it all out the next 
 day, he is producing two days' coal 
 in one day. Then the operators pro- 
 duce a report and show how much rial 
 the miner has produced .in one day 
 when he has worked two days to pro- 
 duce this coal. There are many cases 
 like this and the operators do not deny 
 it. So far as we are concerned, we be- 
 lieve last year's clause in our agree- 
 ment is satisfactory. So far as the 
 operators are concerned we do not con- 
 sider they have any right to come here 
 and ask for local rules and regulations 
 to govern the United Mine Worker.^. 
 We arf! competent tto take care of the 
 organization. We believe, in order to 
 protect the eight-hour day, or anything 
 else of that , character, that we have 
 a right to direct our own members. I 
 do not believe, Mr. Chairman, there Is 
 any necessity to appoint a committee. 
 The miners do not intend to accept 
 anything that Is going to conflict, or 
 says to them that they cannot control 
 their own organization. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM: — 1 am sorry my re- 
 marks have been misconstrued. I 
 never said the miner should go down 
 and slay in the mine. I never would 
 think of such a thing. I could not 
 think of such a thing. It would be 
 an injustice that the miner should go 
 down in the mine when he had noth- 
 ing to do. My remarks were on the 
 local rulings, where the mines shut 
 down af 2:30, where they could not get 
 
 coal. The ruling where they must 
 come out in half an hour. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS: — The operators in 
 this clause are simply seeking to pro- 
 tect themselves against the local rul-' 
 ings which interfered very materiially 
 with the proper conduct of tlje mines. 
 It frequently happens that something 
 will happen to close the mine unex- 
 pectedly during the day before th<- 
 men have had time to prepare their 
 shots and get them ready to shoot. 
 When this is the case the rule is that 
 all men must be out of the mine in 
 half an hour. I think it is plain that 
 they cannot do the work in that time, 
 and what we desire is simply that 
 proper time be given so that it will net 
 restrict the output of the mines and 
 compel the men to come out before th'^y 
 are ready or before they have time to 
 properly shoot their coal. In some 
 cases the miner has to hurry it up and 
 that makes It dangerous for him. As 
 an optrator, I wish toi protest against 
 the construction put on that clause by 
 Mr. Morris; this is not the first tirae 
 he has got up and told the operatDrs 
 what their intent was and I want to 
 say there was not an operator in this 
 convention that had any such ideas as 
 he suggests. I want to protest against 
 that kind of constructions being put 
 on our clauses which we present here. 
 We want to be fair with the miners 
 and treat them fairly and our record 
 is fairly good on that point. We do 
 not want any such construction put 
 on that clause. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Very nearly, if 
 not all, of the advance that has been 
 made by this sub-committee has been 
 made by the appointment of commit- 
 tees to handle the matters and I am 
 sorry Mr. Russell should oppose the 
 motion. Some of the speakers here 
 have been altogether too technical. 
 We all know that the miners will not 
 work more than eight hours and this 
 talk about their preparing shots at the 
 close of the day and all that sort of 
 thing it not worth discussing. We 
 know they will prepare their shots in 
 time. It is simply a question as to 
 when they will fire so they will not 
 endanger their lives. I think a com- 
 mittee made up of two miners and two 
 operators can settle this matter quick- 
 ly and I hope the motion will prevail. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I wish to inform Mr. 
 Lukens that I have no objections to" 
 him protesting against what I might 
 say here. 
 
 . MR. PERRY:— There Is one thing 
 nothing has been said of yet and I 
 want to say that I will chop the top 
 of my head off before I will vote for 
 it, positively. We are not going to 
 work overtime on day labors until we 
 are paid for it. 
 
 (The motion to refer to a committee 
 was carried and the following commit- 
 tee appointed: Operators, Messrs 
 Moorshead and Duggan; miners, 
 Messrs. KnoUman and Drews.) 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 8. 
 
 209 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I move that we meet 
 three times each day (that is iwo 
 sessions daily, and a night session.) 
 (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 (Thirteenth clause of the present 
 state agreement read.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — The operators move as 
 a substitute the thirteenth clause of 
 the operators' scale, which follows very 
 closely the present contract. The 
 changes are only three in number an.i 
 are strictly in harmony with the pres- 
 ent contract, seeking only to carry out 
 more perfectly its purpose. The 
 changes ar.e as much in the interest 
 of the miners' organization as to the 
 operators. It was admitted a year ago 
 that oftentimes local unions or com- 
 mittees failed to live up to the con- 
 tract, and that a great deal of trouble 
 was caused not only to the operators 
 but to the state organization on ac- 
 ooTint of it. We desire toi correct this 
 evil. The provisions have been tried 
 and found in a few particulars to be 
 insufficient and the operators, in the 
 changes here proposed, seek to correct 
 the weak points of the arrangement of 
 a year ago. The flies of our commis- 
 sion are full of cases that have arisen 
 under this paragraph, which could not 
 have arisen if the changes we now 
 propose had been there. They are not 
 things in dispute between the) operators 
 and mine workets? organizaltions, but 
 things where locals have gone wrong 
 and where the miners' state officials 
 and our commission have agreed that 
 they were wrong. Every right that 
 the miners possess in the state of Illi- 
 nois Is safe-guarded by the provisions 
 of this clause: no Injustice can con- 
 tinue. Any alleged injustice can have a 
 full hearing and adjustment under the 
 present contract and under the clause 
 as we now present it. This is purely 
 in the inlt'erest of peace. We do not even 
 see that the changes we offer need to 
 be considered in committee. They are 
 obviously necessary and just and will 
 be conducive of peace at the mine. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I want toi offer the 
 11th section of the mdners' scale as a 
 substitute for the whole. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,: — I move that the 
 13th section of the present agreement 
 be taken up by paragraphs. (Second- 
 ed and carried.) 
 
 MR. JACKSON:— I move the adop- 
 tion of the first paragraph of section 
 13. (Seoonded and carried.) 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I move to adopt 
 paragraph (b) of section 13. (Seconded 
 and carried.) 
 
 (Paragraph (c) was then read by the 
 secretarja) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that there be 
 Inserted in the clause Just read, / just 
 after the words "and such action shall 
 seem likely to iihpede the operation of 
 the mine" the following- words, "or if 
 any day men shall fail to report for 
 duty or account of sickness, or from 
 any other causei and the same is likely 
 to Impede the operation of the mine." 
 
 The reason we wish to Insert that 
 clause is obvious. The purpose is to 
 insure the operation of the mine, anj 
 the work Is jeopaj-dized sometimes as 
 much by the absence of a man who Is 
 sick, as it is by his absence from the 
 mine on account of some dispute. The 
 contra.ct, as it stands, makes It neces- 
 sary for the operator to be more severe 
 on the man, who perhaps Is innocent 
 of any wrong intent. The man may 
 be home sick and you find it necessary 
 to flu his place on account of his ab- 
 sence. His wife may be sick, or he may 
 have some proper reason for his ab- 
 sence; If he has a good excuse his posi- 
 tion will be held for him. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I have no doubt 
 the miners' committee would be willing 
 to furnish some one to fill these pla;;es 
 bvjt it seems to me iti should not be a 
 duty to do so. It would be wrong fi-,r 
 the committee to take a man out of a 
 place where he would make more than 
 the day wage scale and force him to 
 do company work for some one who 
 was compelled to stay at-home. I sup- 
 pose, however, the committee would 
 be glad to furnish some one in the ab- 
 sence of the man. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The suggestion raade 
 by President Mitchell is open to the) 
 same objection as I stated before. If 
 the operator excuses the absent man 
 and holds his place for him, he should 
 not have to pay a premium to keep 
 the mine in operation. If the operator 
 falls back on his rights when a man 
 is absent and fills his place perman- 
 ently, the company will escape paying 
 anything additional for the operation 
 of the mine, or adding to the cost and 
 the man who is absent will have to 
 suffer. He may be negligent. This 
 rests or. a broad proposition that we 
 have no contract relations with the 
 individual miners. We have one oon- 
 itract with-your organization as a whole 
 and when we pay the contract wages 
 we feel that if any of your miners 
 are derelict it rests with you as an 
 organization to see that the places are 
 filled at scale rates. It Is only right 
 and just that we require this. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I believe, from the 
 statements made by the operators 
 themselves here that it -wrould be un- 
 just, if the statements they make are 
 true, to ask a man to leave his work at 
 a sacrifice. It is unjust to think that 
 an operator will ask a man to sacri- 
 fice from $1 to $6 for the purpose of 
 taking and filling another man's place 
 who did not go tO' his work that morn- 
 ing, and I believe it has gone as high 
 as $11. If Mr. Bent can sliow any rea- 
 sons why he should call out one of his 
 men who was making from $12 to $14 
 a day in his mine and ask him to go 
 out and work for $2.10 a day, — it Is 
 surely an injustice and I think there Is 
 not an operator here who really feels 
 that an operator oould compel a man 
 to sacrifice $11 for a day's wage in or- 
 der to accommodate the company. 
 
210 
 
 Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is not to accommo- 
 date the operator any more than the 
 miner. If work should be imi>aded, 
 every man in the mine loses his $11 a 
 day, or whatever he makes. This Is 
 a matter for your protection and in or- 
 der to protect the absent member of 
 your organization In his job. i 
 
 MR. MORRIS (of Duquoln):— We 
 believe it is the duty of every employe 
 to be present to perform his part of 
 the labor but I fear to adopt a clause 
 of this nature for fear that in some In- 
 stances, it mig-ht be abused. It is the 
 rule, or has been, to keep on hand 
 what we would call extra men for 
 cases of emergency of this kind. If 
 the foreman of a mine realized that in 
 case of any one beJng' absent from 
 his labor he go for the party 
 he desires 'to performi that work, 
 — and it is often the casa that 
 there are men employed at the 
 mine who are experts at day labor — as 
 a result he would desire to obtain this 
 man. That would be forcing this man 
 regardless of his own feelings in the 
 matter, to accept this position. I do 
 not believe it would be fair to insert 
 this and the operators will agree with 
 me that if you take a man employed 
 in the mine and put him at other labor, 
 that work is harder on his constitution 
 than three days' work of his own labor 
 would be, he, not being accustomed to 
 it. There should be some consideration 
 on the other side as well as on ours and 
 as I stated before, in a great many In- 
 stances, it would be abused. I know 
 that system in former years was abus- 
 ed to the extreme. If a man was ex- 
 pent in the line of company work hie 
 could not secure other employment as 
 the company would see that others did 
 not Bet it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It seems to me the min- 
 ers are safe-gruarded in the amendment 
 we offer. We ask this arrangement 
 only in order that the absence of some 
 man may not Impede the operation -ot 
 the mine. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I know It to be a 
 fact that men have come and offered 
 services as day labor and the forelnan 
 refused them and turned around and 
 asked the committee to furnish day 
 men, after refusing this other brother 
 employment. 
 
 MR. BENT: — We do not specify who 
 the man selected shall be and it seems 
 to me the paragraph as offered, is plain 
 and safe-guards the Interests of every- 
 body and prevents abuse. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I do not see 
 how the miners can object to this 
 amendment. In the first place, we 
 make a scale of wages for every class 
 of labor and which we are expected to 
 pay for the performance of that class 
 of labor. If the man, whoever he may 
 be, or number of men for whatever 
 cause it may be falls to come to the 
 mine to perform his duty, it seems to 
 me It Is the proper thing for the Unit- 
 ed Mine Workers, with whom we have 
 
 the contract, to step to the front and 
 select a man to perform the duty that 
 will bring good to the greatest number. 
 Somebody has to suffer in all these ar- 
 rangements. It certainly would be do- 
 ing wrong to hold a mine Idle in that 
 way and it seems to me a good union 
 man would be willing and should be 
 willing to do whatever his organiza- 
 tion, through the. pit committee, sug- 
 gests when it is for the good ot all. I 
 do not think it proper to ask an opera- 
 tor when he has made a contract with 
 you for certain classes of labor at a 
 certain wage, to pay more because a 
 laborer, or a eager, driver or dumper 
 has not reported for work. While we 
 may have extra men on the list for 
 work, they are not available quick 
 enough to serve the purpose. I know 
 of a case where a eager, head eager, 
 did, not report for duty and the mine 
 was idle two or three hours because 
 they were wrangling who should do the 
 caging. The man who could do it did 
 not want to and the mine was held up 
 unable to operate. 
 
 MR. MITCHBliL:— Did the pit com- 
 mittee try to furnish a man? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— The miner ob- 
 jected and did not want to go because 
 he was going to loss fifty or sixty cents 
 in the day's work. He did not care 
 how the operators suffered or how his 
 union brothers suffered. We want 
 something that will compel the men to 
 go and do a duty. They should be 
 willing to do it and I do not think It 
 right to ask an operator to pay a prem- 
 ium in order to have places filled in 
 the mine because a man is absent for 
 reasons over which the operator has 
 no control whatever. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— Did the pit com- 
 mittee make this man take the place? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I know the 
 mine was stopped in its operation try- 
 ing to get a eager to do the work. 
 The eager had not reported for duty. 
 I cannot see anything wrong with this 
 amendment. I do not see that an oper- 
 ator can abuse it. A good pit commit- 
 tee would see that It was not abused 
 and the pit committee should see that 
 the operator did not abuse it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It seems to me 
 that you are anticipating trouble and 
 when you look for and anticipate it 
 you generally get it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We have had 
 experience in this matter and we do 
 not want to go through it again, and if 
 we can provide a rule here why not 
 do it. I do not think you can be too 
 plain about matters of this kind. Some- 
 body has got to suffer. You can not 
 make a contract here that somebody 
 will not suffer under more or less. The 
 point I want to make is this, we come 
 here and go to other places and put 
 in anywhere from six weeks to per- 
 haps sixty days in meetings connected 
 with the making of a scale of wages 
 covering every class and condition of 
 employment that we are e!ntltled to 
 
Morning Session, March 8. 
 
 211 
 
 have. The union furnishes us with 
 men to perform that duty at that price 
 and ati no more or no less. That is a 
 fair, plain prdpositlon. If a laborer is 
 sick or stays at home because he does 
 not want iot work, then It seems to 
 me the union should step in and say 
 to the union man that here you go in 
 here and case and he should be made 
 to do it. I think the amendment is 
 a fair one. There Is nothing wrong 
 about it. The union has it absolutPly 
 in Its power toi see that no one is 
 punished and no hardship worked up- 
 on them or any undue advantage taken 
 by the operator. 
 
 MR. J. J. WILSON:— So that I may 
 understand this matter properly. It is 
 true that we have had several conflicts 
 during the year and I would like to 
 ask the operators if the pit committee 
 furnishes you a man to fill the place 
 of eager, driver, dumper or anything 
 else, would you accept the parties we 
 present to you. That is the question 
 I want answered. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— If they were 
 competent to fill the place, yes, sir. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— In the past year, I 
 have got to say that such has not been 
 the case. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD: -There are 
 many cases like Mr. Wilson speaks of 
 and there is bound to be some co'.i- 
 tention, but what we want is an ar- 
 rangement so that the mine will not be 
 suspended in its operation. For that 
 reason, I think the amendment is a 
 good one and you will find a way 10 
 secure the fellows you speak of. Tou 
 cannot make an agreement here that 
 will compel everybody tO' do exactly 
 the right thing but it is not right 'o 
 ask an operator to pay higher wages 
 for the performing of a duty simply 
 because a United Mine Worker has 
 not reported for duty. It is not the 
 operator's fault. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — There are three fea- 
 tures attached to this amendment that 
 I do not like. One of them is that 
 there Is often some man working at 
 the face who is a little better all round 
 man than most of the mineirs and the 
 company generally gives that fellow a 
 chanoe to fill the vacancies. I know 
 fellows that have been called from 
 the face at least half of their time 
 to fill vacancies and while that possibly 
 would not work a hardship in our mines, 
 it would in other places. This agree- 
 ment as it reads says the pit boss, cr 
 the pit committee. I want to say that 
 the pit boss always picks the best fel- 
 low and the consequence would he that 
 in some mine where that fellow makeb 
 this $11 and $14, or can make more 
 money at the face than he can at com- 
 pany work, he would have to be at the 
 face half of his time filling vacancies. 
 Another bad feature of this amend- 
 ment; if the company discharges a 
 man, no matter what time in the day, 
 they could go to another man and say 
 ''fill that place" whether he was Justly 
 
 or unjustly discharged, and the man 
 would have to fill the' place. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— For Mr. Perry's in- 
 formation, I would read the 
 clause. It says, "If any day men re- 
 fuse to continue at work because of a 
 grievance which has or has not bs-sn 
 taken up for adjustment In the manner 
 provided herein, and such action shall 
 seem likely tO' impede the operation 
 of the mine, or if any day men shall 
 fail to report for duty on account of 
 sickness or from any other cause, and 
 the same is likely to impede the opera- 
 tion of the mine, the pit commltteei 
 shall immediately furnish a man or 
 men to take such vacant place or 
 places at the scale rate, In order that 
 the mine may continue at work." This 
 clause does not say anything about 
 discharging a man. Mr. Perry is mis- 
 taken on that clause and he se^ms to 
 think the company will pick out Ihe 
 same man every time to go out and do 
 this work. I think there Is no doubt 
 but what the pit committee can take 
 care of the man and see that he Is 
 not imposed on In that respect. In 
 regard to the other, I would say that 
 I would consider that a man would 
 be better off earning $2.20 or $2.28 than 
 not to have work at all. For instance, 
 if in one entry you could not get a 
 driver or trapper, the whole entry 
 would have to go home and also the 
 man you call on. If he would do the 
 work, he would earn a day's wage and 
 allow the men in that entry to earn a 
 day's wage. They could get the $11 
 a day if he did not. We have had 
 cases in our mine where we coCild not 
 get a trapper. The boys in that entry 
 refused to trap unless we paid $2.10 a 
 day and they lost their day's work. 
 The rest of the men lost a day's work. 
 We have also had cases where the en- 
 try had to go home on account of our 
 inability to get a driver and It seems 
 to me to be better to get $2.25 than 
 nothing and also' give his brother min- 
 ers an oppoTitunity to earn a full rlay's 
 wage. It is not Ithe Intention Of the 
 operators to abuse ithat clause, and I 
 think yoiu will find, if adopted, it will 
 not be abused. They want to prdtect 
 themselves as well as the miners. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is only one pur- 
 poise in having the pit boss have any- 
 thing to do with this matter at all. 
 If the pit committee are not available 
 the pit boss can sometimes get things 
 sitarted a great deal quicker than It 
 can. Speaking about the statement 
 made by Mr. Perry about the pit boss 
 going for the man he knows to be a- 
 good all-round-man. If he does you can 
 se-e that the miners are berueflteid by 
 him doing so. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I desire to gay that 
 the miners have no intention of object- 
 ing any more on this part of the agree- 
 ment. If I was working in a mine I 
 would have little respect for an agree- 
 ment If it said I must come out of a 
 room and work a day at caging, or 
 
212 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 8. 
 
 driving and lose money on that da,v 
 and get so sore I would not work the 
 next day, or the next day or the next 
 day, and I do not believe the miners 
 ot Illinois will submit to an agreement 
 such as that. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— It seems to me 
 there is nothing more proper , nor any- 
 thing unfair to a driver, for instance 
 who has gone to the face to work, that 
 he shall be called back to drive In a 
 case of emergency. It would be prop- 
 er. It would not be proper to ask a 
 miner who has worked at the face for 
 yea,rs. We would call on men who 
 have been doing that particular work. 
 ■We are putting men Into the face to 
 wjrk continually from every class of 
 labov and the pit boss would naturally 
 go to the man who has just gone to the 
 face from driving and ask him to come 
 out. It Is a duty he should perform. 
 He is better able to do it than the rest. 
 I do 'not see anything wrong with the 
 ai.aendment. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— The objection Is 
 that it does not provide for extra pay 
 for men who leave the face. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— How can you 
 fix those men? In the northern field 
 they never have any trouble with that. 
 I have heard the operators and miners 
 say thac they never have trouble about 
 dajr labor in that field, but you penal- 
 ize us in our field. We must pay a 
 premium in order to get labor. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Would it not be 
 to the Interest of the company to 
 mate the Inducement sufficient to make 
 men want to fill these vacancies. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— "Why should we 
 b2 made to pay more. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Why should we 
 fill your vacancies because a man Is 
 sick. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— Why not reduce the 
 mjning rate? 
 
 Adjourned to 1:30 p. m. 
 
 SUB-SCALB COMMITTBB. 
 
 Saturday, March 8, 1902. 
 
 The meeting was called to order at 
 1:S0 p. m. 
 
 The secretary read paragraph C of 
 the present contract and the amend- 
 n)f.nt thereto proposed by Mr. Bent. 
 
 MR. DBLBHANTT:— If that article 
 means as I understand it, then the pit 
 committee failing to get men to do this 
 work, the mine manager or pit boss 
 can go to any man, regardless of what 
 he is working at, and bring him out to 
 do this work. Take caging, for in- 
 stance. To force any man working on 
 the inside, if it is such weather as this, 
 to come out of the warm work, not pre- 
 pared for such outside work, it would 
 work a hardship on those men: and 
 several other kinds of work that we 
 could mention. It could not be ex- 
 pected that the men would do^ It. If 
 this is passed it will surely cause a 
 good deal of trouble amongst the min- 
 ers of the state. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I believe the operat- 
 ors will bear witness that in most 
 places they have had little trouble in 
 regard to that which they seek to rem- 
 edy by this clause. The men who are 
 conservative advise the men to go out, 
 not only for the benefit of the company 
 but for the benefit of themselves, real- 
 izing that the best service that can be 
 secured, in day labor, is that much bet- 
 ter for the miner; but to provide as 
 they recommend here, it is evident 
 that there would be no inducement for 
 the foreman to make any effort to se- 
 cure day laborers. It would not be 
 necessary for him to do so, as the pit 
 committee would be under obligations 
 under this contract, to furnish them. 
 Now, if it were just simply those of 
 us present who were dealing with each 
 other, probably these abuses would not 
 occur, but when we go out Into the 
 field abuses would occur and the oper- 
 ator will agree with me, that there 
 would be no' inducement. If this was 
 enacted, for the foreman to try to se- 
 cure day labor. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I do not auite 
 agree with Mr. Morris on the foreman 
 not having any Inducement to look 
 after the labor. The foreman at every 
 mine certainly has got to look to see 
 that every man is at his place on time. 
 Now, this would not require the pit 
 committee to stay on the outside and 
 wait. The foreman Is the man who 
 would have to look after the labor and 
 get them into their places on time. If 
 he didn't the operation of the mine 
 would certainly get behind. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— You mSsconstrue 
 what I mean. To secure labor to be 
 employed as day la,borers, is what 1 
 have reference to. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:- Yes, I would think, 
 he would have to find out first whether 
 he wanted anyone or not, before he 
 asked the pit committee, or before he 
 asked anybody else. He would want to 
 know whether all the men were at 
 work. Now, this seems to take a great 
 deal of time and It seems there is great 
 stress laid on it. I believe, to be frank 
 and fair here, that it is to the interest 
 of every miner in the mine, and to a 
 good pit committee, to have that clause 
 in that agreement, because with us on- 
 several occasions there has been a per- 
 son who has laid so^me of our work off, 
 on several occasions. Your organiza- 
 tion and the operators' organization 
 must certainly work hand in hand on 
 all of these things. We know and you 
 know that to be arbitrary on these 
 things, on either side, cannot go. I 
 have heard someone say today, that at 
 some mines it wa^s a dollar a day for 
 day labor, and ten or eleven for a min- 
 er, and all that. I do not take much 
 stock in that. We ought to get at a 
 basis here where the men can. workr 
 every day, and if a man lies idle, one 
 of your drivers, the eager, which h^ 
 been spoken of just now; suppose your 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 8. 
 
 213 
 
 •eager should lay off tomorrow morning 
 and there wasn't anybody In the mine 
 would take his place, you would lay 
 the whole mine idle. A driver might 
 lay idle and only delay one part of the 
 mine, but if a eager should lay off and 
 nobody would take his plaee. It would 
 lay the whole mine idle. And I be- 
 lieve it is the duty of your organiza- 
 tion to furnish these men. We have 
 a contract today with your organiza- 
 tion for a day scale, and a mining 
 scale, and if we were to ask any other 
 person to take that place that did not 
 belong to your organization you would 
 stop us pretty quick. You would say, 
 ■"No, sir, that man does not belong to 
 our organization, and he does not work 
 liere." 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— Could you get a 
 man supposing we didn't have an or- 
 ganization? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I have seen them 
 stopped on that ground. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— I know, but sup- 
 posing we did not have an organiza- 
 tion where could you get a man outside 
 •of the mine force to fill that place? 
 
 MR. NE^VSAM:- 1 will state here 
 that I never had any trouble to get a 
 -man. I have seen rules passed before 
 your organization, to force men to go 
 out and fill those places, and it was 
 kept up, and I do not believe your or- 
 ganization wants to make it any worse, 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — Pardon me for in- 
 terrupting you. There's no use rais- 
 ing the question of the rules before the 
 organization. Tou couldn't get a man 
 anyhow. Tou would have to eo and 
 take one of the mine force. Tou couldn't 
 go outside and hire men off the street 
 or the farm, or anywhere else. Tou 
 have got to take one of the men off the 
 force. The same loss of time would 
 «ccur regardless of our organization. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The conditions are 
 entirely different. "We had no trouble 
 before our mining rate was fixed so 
 high, in getting day men. But now 
 you have such a high rate, and the 
 mien can make so much money at tht; 
 face, and they do not wanit to come out. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I agree with you. 
 1 was predicating my statements .ipnu 
 the present mining rate. It is true 
 there is trouble in your field, and in 
 the thick seams, to get the miners to 
 take a day man's place, because of the 
 disparity in their earnings, and that is 
 why we asked you to fix a rate that 
 -will be an incentive for men to go out 
 to work by the day. We ask you to fix 
 a rate above the regular rate, time aiia. 
 ■a half, for a man taking those jobs. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:-^! think you made 
 a statement that we could not get men 
 "before your 'organization. I wish to 
 s4y ■within the last few months— 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No, sir, I did 
 not say that. I said if we did not 
 Tiave an organization would you not 
 experience the same trouble in getting 
 ttien to take these places in the event 
 ■of a man laying off? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— No. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Without being 
 paih extra for it? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— No. I wish to state, 
 in the last few weeks, a mine I know 
 Of personally, had some stuff to clean 
 on the outside. He hired a man on 
 the outside to clean them. He couldn't 
 get the men on th4 inside to do It, 
 and the men went to him and told him 
 they had to belong to the organization 
 before he could get them to do It. We 
 didn't have that before. I do not wish 
 to pass any reflection, or anything ot 
 that kind. I only want to get it In 
 shape so we can work for the next year 
 without any of these troubles. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I do not think, 
 Mr. Mitchell fully realizes what it 
 would amount to If we were to adopt 
 the payment that they ask to men 
 that we have to secure from other 
 classes of labor to flU the positions 
 that are made vacant by men being 
 out of the mine. We hav^ two pay 
 days a month, and St is a common 
 thing at our property even where our 
 men are as good as we can expect of 
 them, where we hai^'e! the least trouble 
 — It is a common thing, I say, for us 
 to have out anywhere from 30 to 4b 
 men after each pay day, and sometimes 
 that number is out two days, and a 
 - lesser number will be out because of 
 pay day fevers three or four days; 
 perhaps not the same men, but there is 
 a large force out from three to four 
 days after pay day, month after 
 month, regularly, or twice a month, 
 rather. They are drivers, cagers, tlm- 
 bermen, as well as miners working at 
 the face. We would simply be suffering 
 a penalty every month throughout the 
 year, if we were to undertake to pay 
 an Increased price because a miner had 
 to leave the face to take the place of a 
 driver or a eager or any other day 
 laborer's work. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Do you know any 
 other industry that treats with organ- 
 ized labor, where they do not pay an 
 increase of price for men io take a 
 regular employe's place? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Really, I am 
 kept so busy trying to work with your 
 organization that I do not have tlmie 
 to stick my nose inlto other unions' 
 business. I don't know. AH I can say 
 is this. If we have to suffer because 
 men do not perform their duty, and 
 we ha^e to hire men who are members 
 of your organization, we should, after 
 we have made a contract for a scale 
 of wages for every class of labor In 
 and around the mine, look to you and 
 expect you to furnish us men when the 
 members of your organization are out 
 for any reason. It is very rare. In- 
 deed, Mr. Mitchell, that the men are 
 out from sickness. Usually' If they 
 are sick we can find a man to take 
 their place, but it comes from pay 
 day fevers; that's . the trouble. We 
 expect them to come to work in the 
 morning and we find we are short five 
 
m 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 or six drivers, we are short a eager, 
 a couple of tlmbermen, 25 or 30 miners. 
 Now, we shouldn't be expected to jump 
 Intel the breach and take care of a 
 condition of that kind out of our own 
 pockets, or out of the company's 
 pockets. Tou would not do it if you 
 were an operator, by a long shoit, and I 
 know it. 
 
 MR. MITCHBLLi:— In our agreement 
 next year we have provided for the 
 filling of vacancies where the vacancy 
 is caused by some fault, or alleged 
 fault, of the organization; but you are 
 now seeking to provide for our filling 
 the vacancies that are caused through 
 circumstances over which the union 
 has no control; the illness of a day 
 man. And you ask us to fill those 
 places, to furnish you a man to fill a 
 vacancy caused by the illness of some 
 day man, and if we don't fill those 
 places you are seeking to put our union 
 in the position of having violated a 
 contract. Now, 'they are entirely dif- 
 ferent propositions. I agree with you, 
 that if the organization is at fault, if 
 we are responsible for a vacancy being 
 caused, then we have a right to help 
 you to fill that vacancy, but take it 
 In the case of a man being sick. What 
 have we g6t to do with that? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEADr— It isn't sickness 
 that will trouble us. Those cases are 
 extremely rare, indeed, Mr. Mitchell. 
 It is simply because the men cannot 
 stand prosperity, cannot stand earning 
 their money and saving It, but want to 
 go out and too many of them get drunk 
 and doi not return to work the next day. 
 As I say, I have 35 to 40 men out at 
 some of our best plants after every 
 pay day. It's a common report coming 
 to mei by wire, "40 men short at No. 
 2. 35 or 40 men short at No. 4. Going 
 to have small tonnage today." 
 
 Now, we do not propose to do any- 
 thing that is going to increase the 
 cost of the production of our coal, 
 especially In penalties of that kind, and 
 thaJt's what that would be. Tou force 
 us to recognize your organization in 
 every particular. Tou will not permit 
 us tO' go into the labor market and 
 get our men anywhere else. We must 
 have union men, and since we have 
 come here and put in nearly 60 days 
 directly and indll^ctly treating virith 
 your organization and making a scale 
 of wages for every class of labor we 
 must lolok tO' you to make up any de- 
 ficiency to be caused for any reason by 
 members of your organization being 
 absent from duty. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If you will per- 
 mit me again: Isn't this addition to 
 the rules of last year, that vou are 
 seeking to make, this: That you are 
 going to penalize somebody because 
 one of our members is unfortunate 
 enough to be ill. Now, we as an or- 
 ganization do not want to protect a 
 man who lays ofC because he is drunk. 
 I suppose we have members of that 
 kind as well as every other organiza- 
 
 tion. And if a man is ^ick, or his 
 family is sick and he has to stay at 
 home, do you want to say to me that 
 the man who is earning — I will not say 
 $10 or $11, for I never knew of such a 
 case as that — but suppose he is making 
 $3 a day in one of your places, he has 
 got to go and work for $2.10 because 
 somebody happens to be ill, or his fam- 
 ily ill. 
 
 ' MR. MOORSHEAD:— I want to say 
 in regard to penalizi<ng, Mr. MltchelU 
 that the members of your organization 
 who would suffer from Illness, would 
 be so remote that it Is not worth talk- 
 ing about. It mlghit prove a heavy 
 penalty because of the members of 
 your organization not working from — 
 as I said before, pay day fevers. 
 There's where we suffer mostly, and 
 where groups of drivers conclude for » 
 some reason or other that they won't 
 work. Men that we cannot control. 
 There isn't an organization anywhere 
 more exacting than yours. I remember 
 our mine No. 5 was thrown into Idle- 
 ness one winter day simply because we 
 were unable to move our cars on top 
 and sent down town to a livery stable 
 and there secured a couple of horses 
 and a driver from the stable to handle 
 them. The committee says, "Tou can- 
 not have that team here." "Why? We 
 cannot move the cars." "Why, he is 
 not a union man," and the result was 
 the mine was Idle the balance of that 
 day, because we couldn't use a non- 
 union man to pull the cars. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The statement 
 you made about the organization belne 
 exacting Is not correct. There isn't an 
 organization in the construction of its 
 laws and the formation of its agree- 
 ments that is more liberal or broad 
 than ours. There may be local rules 
 that you believe to be exacting, but 
 thel-e isn't a union In the United States 
 more liberal or founded on broader 
 principles than the United Mine 
 Workers. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Perhaps that is 
 true in theory, but as it is worked out 
 through locals we suffer under it right 
 along, steadily, under the very best 
 agreements you can make. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It seems strange 
 to me, that we can do business with 
 all of ^ the operators, of the state of 
 Illinois, almost, with the exception of 
 one or two, and they are continually 
 objecting to something that Is being 
 done and the manner in which the 
 agreements are being made. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Will you allow 
 me just a second, to say this to you: 
 That if I am one of the two or three 
 operators that are causing the trouble, 
 that are stumbling blocks here to pre- 
 vent you from doing business, with the 
 permission of the other operators I will 
 be very glad to leave this room. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I did not mention 
 any names. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I want you to 
 mention names. There is no good in 
 
Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 215 
 
 accustog any one or two operators be- 
 cause I do not believe there are any 
 of the operators in this room that de- 
 sire to prevent the settlement of any of 
 these things, or stand in the way of 
 any fair or reasonable men. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I did not accuse 
 you or anybody else of doing any such 
 a thing. I said there were one or two 
 operators who are continually contend- 
 ing In the state of Illinois that the 
 agreement is not lived up to. It Is, 
 and at the same time, the very men 
 who are working for those operators 
 contend with us that they are contin- 
 ually putting something in the road of 
 them living to the agreement. I want 
 to say there are always two sides to 
 a question, and it is a fact that that 
 agreement was hard for the miners to 
 live up to last year, and It has given 
 you an opportunity to come here and 
 say it is not being lived up to, and 
 then you are not satisfied; you come 
 here and ask to penalize the men 
 more than they were last year. I want 
 to say to you, as I said this morning, 
 that it is not fair to ask the United 
 Mine Workers to furnish men to take 
 the places of your laboring men who 
 happen to lay off. All that the miner 
 has, all that he can hope to have, is 
 his labor, and when you ask that miner 
 to sacrifice his labor and time that 
 you may make a day's run and thereby 
 make your profit, and the miner 
 through sacrificing his day's labor is 
 placed in a condition that will not al- 
 low him to make his regular day's 
 earnings the next day again, I believe 
 you are going too far. There is no 
 miner who is working at the' face who 
 can go out and drive a tnule for a 
 day, or can cage coal for a day, or 
 who can do any other work that is a 
 change of work for him, that can go 
 back into his regular place the next 
 day and perform the same day's labor 
 that he could had he not gone out 
 and performed the eixtra day's labor. 
 Before there was an organization, in 
 almost the entire state of Illinois, the 
 oj/Crators did not think lof calling a 
 miner out of the rootn to drive a mule, 
 unless they gave him extra compensa- 
 tion. I have driven a mule myself, 
 can talk from experience, because I 
 know; I put in seven years alt one 
 time driving a mule, and finally got 
 into the face to work, and whenever 
 a driver was off, I was the fellow 
 that was called on to go out and take 
 the man's place. But I never went out 
 and took the place of a driver but what 
 I had extra compensation for my day's 
 work; and not only that, the man who 
 was working with me in my working 
 place received a double turn if he could 
 load it. I want to say again, that the 
 Unite'd Mine Workers 'is not a tem- 
 perance organization. We are not go- 
 ing to attempt to say to the miners, 
 of Illinois — althooigh we would like to 
 see them do It — that they must quit 
 drinking, and put a clause in our agree- 
 
 ment to that effect. When vou talk 
 about what you are pleased to term 
 "pay day fever," I want to say to you 
 that you are wanting to punish the 
 majority of the men, or the men who 
 do not drink — ^because there happen to 
 be a few men who do want to drink. 
 I believfe our agreements have drawn 
 the lines on the men close enough; 
 they came down last year to that ex- 
 tent that there has been a continual 
 flght upon our part from the begin- 
 ning of the scale year until today to 
 keep the men in line, to keep them to 
 that agreement. The men in Illinois 
 today believe — and not only the radical 
 element, I want to say, but the con- 
 servative element as well — ^believe that 
 under the agreement of last year they 
 are placed In a worse position than 
 they were before we entered into the 
 joint movement, ahd I believe myself 
 that there are clauses in that agree- 
 ment that are bad enough to give those 
 men good grounds for the contention 
 theV are raising. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The interest of the 
 operators in this clause we have in- 
 serted is general; I think every opera- 
 tor in the state has an interest in it. 
 Mr. Mitchell has made the statement 
 that the United Mine Workers — that 
 there is not any organization more lib- 
 eral than the United Mine! Workers 
 in their dealing with these questions. 
 Now, the fact is, I do not believe there 
 is an organization in the United States 
 that would claim the right to have 20 
 per cent of the men absent from their 
 work after pay day and have the absent 
 men hold their jobs. Theire la no ques- 
 tion but that in many mines of this 
 state not less than 20 per cent of the 
 miners and sometimes more than 20 
 per cent of the day meii, are absent 
 after pay day, and these pay days come 
 twice a month. The Interest of the 
 operators of those mines does not come 
 from the desilre to have you pro- 
 tect us if the man Is absent 
 through his own sickness or the 
 sickness of any member of his own 
 family, but pomes from thei unneces- 
 sary absence from work; not the neces- 
 sary absence. It is the men who are 
 away frtom work not on account of 
 sickness, that causes us the embarrass- 
 ment. Now, gentlemen, the need of 
 this thing is obvious, for the benefit ' 
 of the miners as well as the operators. 
 We are not trying to make these condi- 
 tions any more irksome to you, but we 
 do say that the thing that prevents 
 any hdndrance of the work, benefits 
 the miner as n;iucb as it does us, and 
 the injury done the Individual is very 
 small compared with the benefit done 
 the body of the men; and we present 
 this thing for its benefits siolely,to them 
 as well as to us. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 call your attention to section 20 of 
 the present agreement, which reads: 
 "When any employe absents himself 
 from his work for a period of two days. 
 
216 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 8. 
 
 unless through sickness or by first 
 having notified the mine manager and 
 pbtalned his consent, he shall be dis- 
 charged." It seems toi me you have 
 gjl the protection you can , reasonably 
 a^k for, against men who absent them- 
 selves from the roliies for other reasons 
 than illness, and when I say illness I 
 do not mean pay day fevers or because 
 a man is drunk. But what you are 
 a?ktog now is this: ' "njat If a man 18 
 ill, (not druiik, or not the result of a 
 drunk) or his wife or his family Is Ills 
 we sh^ll penalize the man who is not 
 at all responsible for the illness of the 
 srnplpye, that has laid off. You ask to 
 pehfiUze some man who is working ' 
 every day. What has a man who is 
 a,{, work digging coal to do with the 
 absence of a niani who is'' absent from 
 his work. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— If we were not 
 forced to secure organized labor, 
 thrjough the United Mine Workers' or- 
 ganization, then Jlr. Mitchell's argu- 
 ment might be very good, bUt we have 
 to take the United Mine Workers' 
 njembers, and I do claim, and I think 
 very logically, too, that when from no 
 fault of our own, and not from sick- 
 jiess, men absent themselves from 
 yf^ark, wer ncit near as miuch as the 
 man working at the face, should be 
 penalized. Somebody has got to be, 
 there's no question' about it, but since 
 you compel us to secure your labor 
 only, and to recoignize your organiza- 
 tion, then we claim that we have a 
 right to look to you for the settlement 
 of any of these troublesome things that 
 come up. 
 
 MR. MITCHELIi:— We have accepted 
 the responsibility for furnishing men 
 whpre we are responsible for the va- 
 cancy, but there is nothing in our rules 
 governing the joint movement that 
 would compel us to accept responsi- 
 bility where a man lays o« through 
 no fault of our union. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Last year's 
 clause in the contract did not protect 
 us. I want to say to you that these 
 gentlemen that are out of the mine 
 regularly twice a month, are the most 
 successful dodgers you lever knew in 
 your life. In some cases, in order to 
 absent themselves two days, they can 
 work up a case of sickness, that doesn't 
 prevent them, tnind you, from going 
 to the saloon and staying there for 
 two days, more or less, but it does 
 give them a doctor's certificate which 
 they can show the mine manager. 
 
 MR, MITCHELL:— Tou were speak- 
 ing ajjout the men who get drunk: 
 Did you ever know a ifian in your life 
 to make up his mind first to go and 
 get drunk, and come and ask permis- 
 sion to do it? Our present agreement 
 provides that they must first ask con- 
 sent before absenting themselves, and 
 did you ever know a man who went, 
 sober, to anybody else and asked per- 
 mission to lay ofe, with the intention 
 of going and getting drunk? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— They do not 
 go to the mine mana;ger first and ask 
 permission before they lay off, as a rulp. 
 They go home and send word to the 
 mli^e manager that they are sick, and 
 when the mine manager speaks to them 
 about it, they show a doctor's certlfi- 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Isn't there an 
 agreement In regard to that? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We do not live 
 up to the agreements exactly; we could 
 not run our property if we tried to. 
 If a man sends word to the mine maiia- 
 ger that he is 111, we accept It, but 
 when we see him loafing around the 
 streets, and going In the saloons, and 
 then he comes a.nd shows the mine 
 manager a doctor's certificate, we draw 
 our own conclusions as to what the 
 trouble^ Is. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I just wanted to ask 
 Mr. Mitchell what we are to do when 
 our men lay off and we cannot get 
 anybody to take their places? You 
 take -drivers or cagers, for Instance, 
 where the inability to fill that man's 
 place will lay off a j)art of the mine 
 or the whole mine. What are we to 
 do? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Go and see a man 
 and see If he will take the place. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That's what we do, 
 but that does not afford us the neces- 
 sary relief. Isn't It better that one 
 man shall suffer a loss of part of his 
 wages, than that the entire force are 
 obliged to lay off? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— What does the 
 company suffer? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The company suf- 
 fers the loss of the tonnage and the 
 men suffer the loss of wages. Some- 
 times thes'' will suffer the loss of their 
 entire output for that day, and thereby 
 be unable to fill their contracts with 
 customers, and In extreme cases pos- 
 sibly lose valuable contracts. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Suppose the com- 
 mittee provides a man, what does the 
 company lose? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:- Well, in that case 
 they lose practically nothing, if the 
 mine can run. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- What does the 
 man who takes the vacant place lose? 
 
 MR. LUKENS :-^He loses probably 
 a part of what he would have earned 
 at ithe face, but he is asslsitlng th'-; 
 membel-s Of your organization, Mr. 
 Mitchell, in obtaining a day's work 
 where otherwise they would have to 
 go home. It seems to me this Is a 
 case of the greatest good to the great- 
 est number. Now. you spoke about 
 allowing time and a half for that work. 
 Now, I am very much surprised thait 
 a man kjf your experience with these 
 matters would even suggest that. A 
 short time ago the superintendent of 
 one of our mines was short of drivers 
 and very foolishly offered to pay an 
 extra hour if they would go and drive 
 (he couldn't get them otherwise) and 
 he succeeded in getting a few men on 
 
Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 217 
 
 that basis. It wasn't but a short time 
 until the drivers found it out, and 
 every one of th'em struck; the regu- 
 lar drivers all claimed they would not 
 work unless they, too, got the extra 
 hour, and we had a day's idleness; It 
 had to be straightented out, and after 
 they did go to work we were still short 
 of drivers and our superintendent 
 went to some of the miners and asked 
 them to drive. They agreed to do so 
 and after the mine started, we wenit 
 ■down in thS mine and found' the mule 
 they were to take out, was still in the 
 stable. We asked them the reason 
 why they didn't drive. It seems the 
 re^t of the drivers had interviewed 
 them and had told them if they worked 
 they would all quit— that is. If the min- 
 er worked they would all quit, and give 
 him a good trouncing besides. We 
 went to one of those miners and of- 
 fered him a five dollar bill in addition 
 to bis regular wages, if he would take 
 the mule out the next day. We wanted 
 to bring the thing to a show down and 
 -find out where the drivers stood. The 
 man was so afraid that he refused to 
 ■do it. That is what we have got to 
 go up against im the operation of our 
 mines. We realize the organization 
 represented by you and the state offl- 
 cials is liberal enough in its contracts, 
 in some of th'em, but what we are com- 
 plaining about is the tocal rules and 
 TegulationiS that we go up against after 
 we get through making this contract 
 and get back and attempt to operate 
 •our mines. What we have attempted 
 to do in drawing up our resolutions 
 that we have presented here, is to get 
 matters in such shape that It will be 
 easier and better to operate those 
 Tnines, both for the miner and for our- 
 selves. We haven't any desire to do 
 the miners any injusttoei bu't on thf- 
 other hand we do not like to go home 
 from here feeling that we are liable to 
 be held up at any time, our mines 
 -closed down, and a general feeling that 
 we haven't the protection we feel we 
 ai'e entitled to have after making the 
 agreement with your organization. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— There has been a 
 pitiful plea placed before yoii by th»' 
 operators of the ytate in regard to 
 stoppages of mines which have oc- 
 -curred; or will occ.ir as they antici- 
 pate. I have got ito say It isi 'a poor 
 rule that don't work both ways. Not 
 later than the month of June, or the 
 beginning of July, there was a tele- 
 phone message sent over Tazewell 
 •county and Peoria county to hunt me 
 up, sending medirectly to a place not 
 100 miles from Peoria where they had 
 an infringement a^'on the agreement 
 by drivers stopping the mines th'ere. 1 
 "went out, and as soon as I got there 
 T found, after investigation, that such 
 was 'the case. The conseJquence was 
 Tve fined the drivers for a violation of 
 tha,t agreemerit. They said they 
 wouldn't drive any more; paid their 
 -fines. That night when they found 
 
 that was the case the operator of that 
 mine applied to the pit oowimittee to 
 furnish them -^-ith men to pull the coal 
 the next day. The consequence was 
 that they went directly to another mine 
 to gelt drivers, and the operator of that 
 mine would not accept thlem, while 
 they were only there temporarily. 
 That shows conclusively that they did 
 not want to live up to their agree- 
 ment, and I have got to say right now, 
 that is not th& only Instance that the 
 operators of this Eighth district have 
 not endeavored to live up to 'the agree- 
 ment. Now, there have been various 
 instances where the pit boss, right in 
 this v&ry district, says to the pit com- 
 mit'tee, "I want soi and so," and "I 
 want so and so." Well, I think that is 
 getting a little out of the way, and you 
 consider that that man is certainly 
 compelled to be submissive to the dic- 
 tation of that pit boss. Now, I should 
 think not. I would not, for one. If I 
 had been submissive to the^ dictation 
 of capital, I certainly would not be 
 here today. I would have been over 
 the seas, and that 5s the position we 
 are in today. There are two words 
 in this clause it says, ''shall immedi- 
 ately" — that Is a demand. If it was, 
 "shall endeavor" It would be quite a 
 different thing, in thalt clause, but it's 
 a demand upon that pit committee, 
 and I have got to say a pit committee 
 cannot at all tlimies furnish men that 
 you would like to have, and I have got 
 to say as an individual with a little 
 individuality about me, if I left my 
 place, I certainly would put a premium 
 on my labor. If you do not; wish to 
 accept it you do not have to. That 
 is the position I take in this matter. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I tonly want to 
 make a few more observations. Mr. Lii- 
 kens says he is surprised a person of my ■ 
 experience would offer th'e suggestion 
 thalt the men should be paid overtime 
 for filling the places tof this character. 
 I want to say to him and to this com- 
 mittee, that it Is becaus'e of my ex- 
 perience I do offer It. There isn't a 
 labor organization In America, I do 
 not care which one you take, that 
 makes contracts with employers, that 
 does nlot require that if a man who is 
 receiving $3 a day, takes the place of 
 a man who is absent, who receives 
 $2J50 a day, or any amount le'ss than $3, 
 that the man- taking the place shall 
 not receive the same wages he would 
 have earnied if he had remained at 
 his own work. That is a rule that 
 there are no exceptions to, and I say 
 there would not be anything unfair if 
 we were to ask you to pay the miner 
 who takes a cager's place, or a driver's 
 place, as much money as he would 
 have earned had he remained at his 
 own work. There would not be one 
 thing unfair In' that, but we are not 
 asking that much. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— In making the re- 
 marks that I did, I intended to add, 
 and should have added, that in our dis- 
 
218 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 trlct at least, the effect of your prop- 
 osition would be' to increase the wages 
 of practically all the men In the mine. 
 The fact that We would pay men out 
 of the mine time and a half to fill 
 those positions. In a very short time we 
 would not have a regular man on our 
 list. They would ail go to dig- 
 ging, and when we wanted ans: day 
 men we would have tol call them out 
 under that rule. In less than a month, 
 in my judgment, we would not have 
 a day man oh our list, and the effect 
 would simply be tJo add 50 per cent, 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Fred, are there 
 that many men who are ill every 
 month? This agreement means exactly 
 what it says. It doesn't mean If a 
 man lays off from the caus'e of being 
 drunk. It means if a man Is really 
 ill, or his family is really ill, and can- 
 not attend to his work without neglect- 
 ing a higher duty. 
 
 MR. LTJKENS:— Mr. Mitchell, this 
 clause states "a man who is ill or from 
 other causes," etc. "We don't put it on 
 the ground he is ill; but here in our 
 field, if we have one driver working 
 say at $2.25 a day, and another man 
 that gets $3.37%, that $2.25 man would 
 quit that job, and It's doubtful if 
 he woluld work the day 'out; and as I 
 say, in lese than a month we would 
 not have a day hand on our list. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I can hardly agree 
 with Mr. Lukens, from the fact that 
 we tried that in the Springfield tUstrict. 
 Thei operators representing that district 
 are here, and I want to say I do not 
 think they will oontradiOt m-e when I 
 say that any such occurrence has 
 never happened in that district, 
 and I want to say they never 
 had any trouble in getting a man to 
 come from the face and take the place 
 of the driver in the last year before 
 this one, and it was only at a premium 
 of 25 cents a day. They did not hesi- 
 tate to give it; they gave" it to them. 
 They always had drivers, and I want 
 to say that in districts of the state 
 today where there is a premium given 
 it cuts no figure at all as Mr. Lukens 
 has stated that the regular men would 
 quit. They have not quit and they 
 would not quit in our district. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The proposition of the 
 operators in regard to this and other 
 matters, is pretty easily stated. "We 
 concede toi the miners of this state 
 practically all of the vital thinffs in 
 which they are interested as an organ- 
 ization. They have the eight hour day, 
 in connection with other states. They 
 have the mine-run system, which the 
 others are refused. They have the em- 
 ployment solely of union labor. And 
 they have the friendly attitude of the 
 operators of Illinois in the carrying 
 out of their program for the competi- 
 tive field. When we have an oppor- 
 tunity to assail the mine-run systpm 
 and show it has added a burden to the 
 operators of this state, we have held 
 our peace, and we have sought in every 
 
 imaginable way to give you a free hand 
 and in exchange for that, we ask sim- 
 ply one thing, and that comes up in 
 various forms; and that Is, to Insure 
 to us the peaxsef ul and ooMttauous oper- 
 ation of our mines, and within reason- 
 able limits the control of our property 
 and administration of the business. 
 "When we come to you and point out 
 that measures which were well con- 
 ceived a year ago have fallen a little 
 short of this thing, and have enabled 
 men at home, not as conversant with 
 unionism as you are, and to whom the 
 main object of a union is to hamper 
 the operator, who is your friend; and 
 we ask you to fortify a little more 
 some weak place in the harness, we are 
 not asking of you anything which de- 
 prives any of your mfimbers of a right 
 he ought to possess, or to reduce his 
 wages by a farthing, speaking of the 
 men as a body, but are asking yoa 
 simply, in exchange for the great things 
 which we concede to you, to give us 
 ithe pe'aee and contentment at home 
 which will make us your abiding 
 friends. The big things that have ac- 
 crued to your benefit In this state are 
 causing us less uneasiness than th& 
 small things. We protest against 
 many discriminations, but after all, the 
 things that Irritate us and try our pat- 
 ience are practically but two in num- 
 ber. The length of time that we have 
 to consume in these gatherings in the 
 going over of matters which ought to- 
 be considered settled once for all, an'd 
 the small contentions at the mines 
 over things that involve neither wages 
 nor benefits to your organization, which 
 we endure during the year. "We are 
 not saying a word against your organ- 
 ization, but simply that these Mttle 
 things do take away from the pleasure 
 which we would otherwise experience 
 in dealing with men whom we respectf 
 for our common interest. Now, as we 
 approach these various propositions 
 here, can't we come up with unbiased 
 minds, recognizing that what gives us 
 peace at home is in your interest as 
 well asi ours? 
 
 Mr. Mitchell has spoken in regard to 
 this matter, as though the thing that 
 was sought was to give us protection 
 in the case of sickness of an absent 
 man, or a member of his family. Does 
 Mr. Mitchell realize that without this 
 amendment, the agreement is silent In 
 regard to unnecessary absence of a 
 man,, unless it is on account of some 
 grievance which has or has not been 
 taken up for adjustment? The Illness 
 of a man or a member of his family Is 
 the least Important thing involved In 
 this thing. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Doesn't the 20th 
 section of the agreement cover the 
 case? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I was just coming to 
 that. But if Mr. Mitchell concedes the 
 obligation, as between your organiza^ 
 tion and ours, to provide for the un- 
 
Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 219 
 
 necessary absence of a man, I do not 
 apprehend there will be any dlfHcjilty 
 in getting over the question of the 
 necessary absence. Mr. Mitchell has 
 quoted another clause that gives us 
 the right to discharge a man when he 
 is absent two days. In the first place, 
 the operator takes as little pleasure 
 in discharging a man as the miners' 
 organization does, and it is something 
 we come to with great reluctance and 
 do not do as often, perhaps, as we ought 
 to do it. In the second place, the 
 clause which Mr. Mitchell refers to 
 gives us no protection whatever for the 
 first day, and the majority of these 
 offenses are for one day only. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— The 20th clause 
 in our agreement reads, "When any 
 employe absents himself from his 
 work for a period of two days, unless 
 through sickness or by first having not- 
 ified the mine manager and obtained 
 his consent, he shall be discharged." 
 That, Mr. Bent, I believe gives you all 
 the protection that you can ask. A 
 person listening to, the argument pre- 
 sented by the operators, would imag- 
 ine that' the evil that you complain of 
 did not exist until we (had a minersi' 
 union. My experience in the mines 
 runs back something like 32 years, and 
 there never was a time yet during that 
 time but what you had the same evil 
 to contend with; and I want to say to 
 you, from experience, that you never 
 were as well protected, with or without 
 a union, as you have been the last year 
 under the twentieth clause; and fur- 
 thermore, I wish to say that in each 
 and every case where a miner has vio- 
 lated that clause, the operator has been 
 mighty quick to take advantage of it 
 and discharge him. Scores of our men 
 have been discharged for violating that 
 particular clause. I cannot see where 
 you have any reason to complain about 
 it at all. You can take any occupa- 
 tion in this country, whether it be un- 
 ionized or not, a man can go to the 
 manager of that works and get per- 
 mission or get leave of absence, of 
 something of that kind, for one or two 
 or three days. You can take the rail- 
 road employe; they can get a lay-off 
 any time they go and ask for it. Ac- 
 cording to what Mr. Bent says we would 
 be even denied that right, because this 
 clause protects you against that, and 
 a man must ask permission if he wants 
 to leave the mine. 
 
 MR. BENT:— May .1 ask Mr. Rey- 
 nolds a quesitiion? Does be suppose any 
 railroad employe can absent himself 
 from work without permission and hold 
 Ms Job? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I say any em- 
 ploye can get permission or get leave 
 of absence, and he can also lay off a 
 reasonable time without being dis- 
 charged. 
 MR. BENT:— I do not so understand 
 
 it- ^ . ^ 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I have friends 
 who are railroad engineers, firemen— I 
 
 have friends who are working in the 
 shops in East St. Louis, and they have 
 just as much latitude In that respect 
 as what any miner has. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- Mr. Bent, will 
 you let me ask you a question? 
 MR. BENT:— Certainly. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Suppose a fire- 
 man would lay off for any cause and 
 they were to fill his place with an en- 
 glnfer, employed as an engineer, would 
 he draw the fireman's pay? 
 
 MR. BENT: — You are speaking of 
 railroads? 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes. 
 MR. BENT:— I do not know what the 
 railroad organizations do. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I have had 
 charge of railroad property, and I will 
 say he got a fireman's pay. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If he left the en- 
 gine where he was regularly employed, 
 to take the other man's place, because 
 of his absence, and lost his own place 
 for that day, would he draw the oth- 
 er man's pay? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Whenever an 
 engineer or anybody else goes firing on 
 an engine, he gets a fireman's pay. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I want to say, it 
 is contrary to the constitution of the 
 engineers' organization, and contrary 
 to the laws of labor organizations in 
 their agreements. 
 
 MR. BENT:— One more question, Mr. 
 Reynolds. Do you claim that when 
 miners are absent from work for drunk- 
 enness or other unnecessary reasons, 
 that they are absent after getting per- 
 mission, or get away and stay away 
 without being excused? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- 1 claim that un- 
 der the present agreement they have 
 a right to be absent one day without 
 asking the mine manager or getting 
 permission, but after that, if there is 
 more than one day, they have to have 
 a reasonable excuse, and the only ex- 
 cuse, I belieVe, would be sickness. If 
 it is to go off on business, or anything 
 of that kind, under the 20th clause they 
 have to ask permission to go. Isn't 
 that the fact? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes^ that's the way the 
 agreement reads, but, gentlemen, the 
 point remains, that in any well conduct- 
 ed industry that I know, the men are 
 not absent without being excused, ex- 
 cept at their peril. They do not, in 
 these instances that I know of, hold 
 their places without an excuse, and 
 these men are away unnecessarily, and 
 away without excuse. The men who 
 have occasion to be absent from their 
 work have no trouble In getting ex- 
 cused. Mr. Rejmolds has stated that 
 men have been freely discharged that 
 have been away from their work two 
 days under the present agreement. I 
 wish to speak of a mine I know of. 
 where the average number of men Idle 
 after pay day is 40, and where there 
 hasn't been a single discharge on ac- 
 count of their being absent from their 
 work throughout the past year. 
 
220 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — How Ions' were they 
 Idle? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Part of them were Idle 
 for one day, and a very fair proportion 
 for two days. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Whose fault was it they 
 were not discharged? 
 
 MR. BENT:— You might say It was 
 the fault of the operator, on account 
 of his extreme reluctance to dis- 
 charge men. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I want to ask if you 
 or any other operator here know of one 
 Instance where our organization has 
 insisted upon any man being put back 
 to work under that clause in the agree- 
 ment ? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I do not, during the 
 year; but just as we were making the 
 clause last year, I know of that thing 
 occurring, where it was afterward ad- 
 mitted the men was absent through 
 drunkenness. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — That was before this 
 clause was in our agreement? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— But not since? 
 ■ MR. BENT:— No, sir. I think you 
 have acted in good faith, as far as I 
 know. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— This statement was 
 made, in asking certain provisions to 
 go into the agreement which would not 
 cost the miners one farthing. I would 
 like to ask the operators If they know 
 what the provision in last year's agree- 
 ment cost the miners toi carry it 
 fhrough, for the protection of the op- 
 erators. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— "Which provision do 
 you allude' toi? 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— The provision in re- 
 gard to pit committees when they dis- 
 charged a man for laying off from work 
 — I was alluding to the short sentence 
 which they wish to insert in that ar- 
 ticle, would cost us hundreds of dollars, 
 the foreman would Immediately appeal 
 to the pit committee to furnish the 
 men. Whenever the pit committee 
 have to go around and hunt up men, 
 the miners have to pay this pit com- 
 mittee for that work. And while it 
 may be, as Mr. Bent states, that our 
 organization probably enjoys the gross 
 weight and 'other privileges that the 
 other states do not, they have agreed 
 by their vote in interstate movement 
 that It Is the equivalent. I do not 
 like to say anything in reigard to what 
 mii^ht occur, but I know full well were 
 I foreman at a mine, and a provision 
 was made, that would lessen my duty, 
 the other fellow would perform it; an.d 
 as I stated before, in case of day lab- 
 orers quitting their work, the foreman 
 would not seek to obtain day labor but 
 would ask the miners to furnish such 
 labor. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We wish to facilitate 
 business and meet the miners' objgc- 
 tions. Before voting on the amend- 
 ment we would like to ask whether. If 
 it is withdrawn, the miners' state ofHc- 
 lals recognize the obligation to furnish 
 
 men in case of unnecessary absence 
 from work, saying nothing whatever 
 about sickness or other necessary ab- 
 sence? 
 
 MR. RUSSBLiLr:— I desire tO' say, 
 that the miners' officials will recognize 
 their obligations and furnish men un- 
 der the agreement, as the agreement 
 provides. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The agreement of the 
 present year is silent regarding the 
 niatters which Mr. Mitchell, in his dis- 
 cussion with us, covered. We do wish 
 to meet your wishes in this matter if 
 we have a reasonable protection, and if 
 it is recognized that an unnecessary ab- 
 sence from work which impedes the 
 work, makes it the duty of the pit 
 committee to provide a man so the 
 mine can continue at work, we feel like 
 meeting your views in regard to this 
 amendment. 
 
 MR. KNOWLON:— Would that mean 
 that just as soon as the mine manager 
 finds out he is short a man, he would 
 simply say to the pit committee, "You 
 gi' and get mne a man?" We surely can- 
 not agree to that. It would cost us 
 about twice the amount the man would 
 earn. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The question I ask is 
 strictly in line with Mr. Mitchell's re- 
 marks, and it seems to me It ought to 
 be answered one way or the other to 
 enable us to vote intelligently when we 
 get to the question. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— No, sir. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The question asked is 
 this: If we will meet the miners' wish- 
 es in this matter, and withdraw our 
 amendment to this clause of the state 
 agreement, w^ill the miners' state offic- 
 ials recognize the obligation of the pit 
 committee to fill the place of a man 
 who is unnecessarily absent from his 
 work, when his absence threatens to 
 impede the operation of the mine. This 
 has no reference whatever to sickness 
 or any other necessary absence. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to say as 1 
 said before, that we certainly recognize 
 as Mr. Bent and other operators have 
 said here upon this floor, that it is to 
 the interest of us as miners, to keep 
 the mines going if it is possible, and we 
 are perfectly satisfied, in a general 
 way, to use our good offices at any time 
 to see that the mine Is kept going; but 
 we certainly cannot assume as an ob- 
 ligation here before you today, verbal- 
 ly, what you have been asking us to 
 embody in this agreement. We say 
 as officials that we will assist you in 
 operating the mines, furnishing men, 
 as far as we possibly can, and we will 
 carry out the provisions of this agree- 
 ment if it is possible to do it, but to 
 obligalte ourselves to furnish you men 
 to take the places of those who are 
 absent when you believe it to be un- 
 necessary, we cannot do it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— What do you wish to 
 have the pit committee throughout the 
 state understand is the wish of the or- 
 
Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 221 
 
 ganization In the case of unnecessary 
 absence that threatens to Impede the 
 operation of the mine, if we withdraw 
 this amendment? 
 
 MR. RUSSEILL,:— We want the pit 
 committee throughout the state to fur- 
 nish men if it is possible for them to 
 do it, but at the same time, we do not 
 wish it to be considered as binding 
 upon them to do it, or a violation of 
 the agreement if they do not. 
 
 (On the amendment the operators 
 voted Aye, the miners voteld No, and 
 it was lost). 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that para- 
 graph C of the present agreement be 
 adopted. (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 (The secretary read paragraph D of 
 the present agreement). 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute, 
 clause D of the 13th paragraph of the 
 operators' proposed scale, which is the 
 same as the present contract, with this 
 clause inserted: "Any pit committee- 
 man who shall support or attempt to 
 execute any rule or proceeding in con- 
 flict with any provision of this con- 
 tract, or who shall assume any func- 
 tion as committeeman not specially set 
 forth herein, shall be forthwith depos- 
 ed as committeeman and discharged by 
 the coitipany. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. BENT:- The statement has been 
 made, gentlemen, that the amendment 
 to the last clause that we have been 
 considering, had very few grievances 
 behind it to make it necessary. There 
 were a great many more than were sup- 
 posed by the speakers. But we have 
 here, now, a clause which is addressed 
 against something that has probably 
 caused as much trouble as anything in 
 the past year, something that undoubt- 
 edly has troubled the state officials as 
 much as it has the operators. The 
 hies of our commissioner are full of 
 cases- where the trouble has not been 
 due to any difference of opinion as to 
 what the contract meant, but of re- 
 volt, pure and simple, on the part of 
 the locals, and where the pit committee 
 either hasn't been loyal to the contract, 
 or more often, where the committee 
 has been coerced into taking an action 
 known to be in violation of the con- 
 tract on account of some resolution 
 passed by the locals. The average pit 
 committee aims to do justice and live 
 up to the provisions of the contract, 
 but the committees are few in number 
 that do not feel that their first alleg- 
 iance is to the local and tb any resolution 
 that it may pass, whether or not It is 
 in harmony with the state contract. 
 The state contract provides that there 
 shall be no local rule that shall con- 
 flict with any contract that is made. In 
 the case of the interpretation of one of 
 the clauses at Danville, President Mit- 
 chell stated that while one duty of a 
 nit committee was to see that the miner 
 was protected in all his contract rights, 
 another equally important duty was 
 to see that the miners respected the 
 existing agreements. It is in order to 
 
 have the pit committee recognize that 
 this is one of their functions, and an 
 important one, and that they cannot 
 safely ignore the state contract or up- 
 hold a local, where it is different from 
 the policy of the state organization, that 
 we ask to have this amendment insert- 
 ed. We care very much for this, and 
 we want nothing but what is strictly 
 just, and in your interest as well as 
 ours. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 would like to amend 
 the amendment by having it read. 
 "Any pit committeeman or boss who 
 shall support or attempt to execute 
 any rule or proceeding in conflict with 
 ■any provision of ithis cointract, lor who- 
 shall assume any function as commit- 
 teeman or boss not specifloallyi set forth, 
 herein. Shall be forthwith deposed as 
 committeeman or boss and discharged 
 by the company." (Seconded by Mr. 
 Russell.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That's a very good 
 amendment; we both want to be per- 
 fectly fair. 
 
 (On the amendment to the amend- 
 ment, the operators voted No, the min- 
 ers voted Aye, and lit was lost.) 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Bent, the operators voted Aye, the 
 miners voted No, and it was lost). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I move you that para- 
 graph D of the 13th clause be strlckeji 
 out entirely. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think we ought 
 to try and agree on isome , provision 
 covering the duties of the pit commit- 
 tee. I do not favor the proposition of 
 the operators, because pit committees 
 simply execute the instructions of the 
 local unions, and the proposition of the 
 operators would result in the discharge 
 of a pit committeenaan for carrying out 
 the instructions of the miners who are 
 employed in the mine. They are no 
 more responsible for those instructions 
 than every other miner who works in 
 the mines, and if you want to dis- 
 charge the person who is responsible 
 for any instruction in violation of the 
 agreement, if such instructions are 
 given, you ought to discharge every 
 man who votes for it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We do not know who 
 they are. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- No, but that isn't 
 any reason why you should discharge 
 the pit committeeman. I think we 
 onighlt to fix upon something that would 
 restrain pit committeemen from tak- 
 ing to themselves authority not vested 
 in them. 
 
 'MR. PERRY:— I do not wish it un- 
 derstood that I have anything against 
 the present agreement simply because 
 I made that motion, and I Only made 
 the amendment tO' the amendment to 
 try to show the operators the unfair- 
 ness of their motion. I am perfectly 
 satisfied that there shall be some pro- 
 vision to regulate the duties of the pit 
 committee. 
 
 MR. BENT:— You know this has beea 
 an evil in the past year, don't you? 
 
222 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— We always have more 
 or less evils on both sides. It's not 
 all one sided. But I cannot believe wa 
 ought ta undertake to restrain one 
 side without putting a restraint on the 
 other side. Yet I am satisfied there 
 ought to be something to outline the 
 duties of the pit committee and boss 
 in general. Mr. Bent, we have no 
 more trouble from one side on that 
 score than we do from the othfer. In 
 my district the troubles that havei aris- 
 en unnecessarily in the last year, the 
 foundations were laid Just as much 
 and as often by one party as the other. 
 I withdraw my motion to strike out. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that para-* 
 graph D of section 13 be adopted, as 
 it appears in the present agreement. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Perry). 
 
 MR. BENT: — The paragraph refer- 
 red to is admittedly insuffioifenit, and T 
 move that the subject matter of this 
 paragraph and the amendment propos- 
 ed by ithe operators be referred to a 
 special oommlttee of two operators 
 and two miners. (Seconded and car- 
 ried). 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I make a motion 
 that Mr. Perry's amendment be also 
 Included. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 (H. C. Perry and J. B. Wilson for the 
 miners, and Messrs. Cutts and Duggan 
 for the operators, were appointed on 
 said committee). 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am satisfied that 
 before we get through with this sec- 
 tion, there will be more of the section 
 to be referred to the committee, and I 
 would suggest that all of this matter 
 that should be referred, be referred to 
 this committee. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is satisfactory, 
 but let's see what we can agree to 
 first. 
 
 (The secretary read paragraph B of 
 the present agreement). 
 
 Mr. Russell moved Its adoption and 
 the motion was seconded and carried). 
 
 (The secretary read paragraph F of 
 the present agreement). 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I move that it be 
 referred to the same committee that 
 was appointed to consider paragraph 
 D. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is Mr. Reynolds willing 
 to include in that reference the substi- 
 tute in the operators' scale? If so, it 
 will be satisfactory to us. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Yes, and the sub- 
 stitute in the miners' scale also. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— We will In- 
 clude everything relative thereto. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and it was 
 carried) . 
 
 (The secretary read paragraph 14 of 
 the present agreement.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I move as a substitute 
 the scale of wages for top men as pro^ 
 posed in the miners' scale. (Seconded 
 ^y Mr. Jackson). 
 
 MR. BENT: — ^It doesn't seem that we 
 •ought to waste tim^e in considering that 
 -proposition. It is the position of the 
 
 operators that they will not add to the 
 cioist of their coal, w^hich tJie mtniers' 
 amendment will do in various districts 
 of this state. The matter was thor- 
 oughly threshed over last year. The 
 advance of all outside day labor was 
 given when inside day labor was ad- 
 vanced, and we cannot afford to mjsJce 
 a uniform scale for outside day labor. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not think It is 
 necessary to argue this at any great 
 length from either side. If that is 
 their position I don't suppose we will 
 be able to change it at all. But I 
 would like to say that they are not 
 able to change our position on the pres- 
 ent agreemept in regard to it, either. 
 We certainly will not adopt the clause 
 in the present agreement in regard to 
 outside day labor. It is time that on 
 these knotty problems we begin to let 
 each other know ju^t where we stand. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We did let you know a 
 few days ago, where we stood in re- 
 gard to this proposition, and any other 
 proposition that would add to the cost 
 of our coal. We are not in Pekxria to add 
 to the cost of our coal in this state. We 
 cannot do it, and I regretfully say we 
 will not do it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is the way to 
 speak. If that is the position you take 
 then we certainly have been acting like 
 a lot of school boys here wasting our 
 time for nothing, because we will never 
 reach an agreement. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We said that several 
 days ago. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I now move you, Mr. 
 Chairman, that we so report to the 
 joint convention. (Seconded by Mr. 
 Delehanty). 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— The motion Is 
 not in order at this time. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 would like to know 
 the reason why It Is not in order. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Because this 
 oommlttee has adopted a resolution de- 
 fining its plan of action, and in order 
 to have the motion that you have just 
 made acted upon, it would be necessary 
 to reconsider a former motion. That 
 is the reason why the Chair declares 
 the motion not in order. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Would not a mo- 
 tion then be In order that the operators 
 give us their final ultimatum, to stop 
 this night session and day session. We 
 can report upon that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask, for information, what the oper- 
 ators mean by their refusal to fix a 
 scale of wages for these classes of lab- 
 or enumerated In the miners' scale. 
 What is the attitude of the operators 
 toward theim? 
 
 MR. BENT:— You understand there 
 Is a scale of wages in different parts of 
 this state, which is well understood by 
 both sides, and which we do not pro- 
 pose to disturb. It simply means that 
 the Interstate miovemenit has declined 
 to make any classlflied scale for out- 
 side day labor, and we have declined, 
 for 'obvious reasons stated a year ago. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 8. 
 
 223 
 
 to do It in this s]tate, at least until 
 such time as it is done for the competi- 
 tive field. It does not mean any 
 chang-e in our policy towards the out- 
 side day wages in any of the districts 
 of the state. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like, to say, 
 that in making the motion I did, I did 
 not take the stand I took because you 
 refused to adopt the scale as present- 
 ed, at all; not so. I think it is proper 
 to be frank. There is no doubt but 
 that there are some things in the soaie 
 that we have proposed that are capable 
 of being modified, but when we run up 
 against the ultimatum, that no addi- 
 tional cost in any district will be tolerat- 
 ed then there is no chance for an agree- 
 ment; there is absolutely no show for 
 us to agree, because we have day men 
 working in certain parts of this state 
 that we absolutely refuse to allow to 
 work another year under that contract. 
 It is an outrage. It Is unjust. It is 
 unfair to expect men tO' act as firemen 
 for $1.80 a day, which" they are doing 
 in some districts of this state. It is 
 unjust and unfair to expect people 
 who are shoveling coal into a box car, 
 to do it for $1.80 a day, — the very hard- 
 est kind of work that lany man can 
 perform around the mines, and we will 
 not do it. 
 
 MR. MITCHEL.I,:— I would like to 
 ask the operators a question. Suppose 
 that the car trimmers or the flremien, 
 or any other class of labor enumerated 
 here, whom' you refuse to make a scale 
 foir, would go on a strike for hisher 
 wages, would you hold our organiza- 
 tion responsible for It? Would you re- 
 quire us to fill their places? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I would like to ask, in 
 reply, if it wasn't the miners' organiza- 
 tion which secured the 20 per cent ad- 
 vance toi these men to a minimum of 
 $1.80 a day, as members of your or- 
 ganization? If so, we certainly do 
 hold you responsible for their conduct. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It wasn't our olrgani- 
 zation, exactly. The operators helped 
 us to get it. 
 
 MR. BENT: — ^We helped you to get 
 everything you have got. I would like 
 to ask Mr. Perry just one question. Do 
 you propose to concede us a reduced 
 cost for our coal in a single district of 
 this state. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chalmaan, I be- 
 lieve I made myself clear. I said that 
 I did not make the motion that I did 
 because of your refusal to adopt the 
 scale that we proposed. I said there 
 is no doubt there are some things in 
 there tliat could be modified, and I will 
 add more, and say there isn't one in- 
 stance there, where w© have asked a 
 price for any class of labor, but what 
 some district Is paying the very price 
 we ask. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Will you kindly answer 
 my question? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I believe I have an- 
 swered It. 
 MR. BENT:— No, sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Let me answer It? 
 
 MR. BENT:- CertainXy. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Do you know of any 
 place in the state where we ever did 
 anything of that kind? 
 
 MR. BENT:— NiDi sir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then you are not very 
 well posted. I can name you two dis- 
 tricts where it was done last year. In 
 one place the miners' executive board 
 deliberately reduced it four cents a ton. 
 The other place, in the Danville district 
 six cents. 
 
 - MR. BENT:— That wasn't a reduc- 
 tion; it was correcting an abuse. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^It was changing a' price 
 that had been agreed upon. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is there any district 
 where you will concede a reduction to- 
 day, Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We will be as fair now 
 as we were then. 
 
 (On Mr. Perry's motion to substitute 
 the outside top day wage scale In the 
 miners' proposed agreement the oper- 
 ators voted No. the miners voted Aye, 
 and it was lost). 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the 14th paragraph in the present con- 
 tract. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 (The secretary read the 15th clause 
 of the present agreement). 
 
 MR. BENT:— The change In the 17th 
 clause of the operators' scaJe was made 
 to construe the clause liberally. The 
 phraseology In the present contract 
 provides in case of the Instantaneous 
 death, the miners could be Idle on the 
 day of the funeral, or if they worked, 
 the operator should be compelled to pay 
 25 dollars for the benefit of the man's 
 famSly, etc., but the question seemed to 
 be in doubt where it was an accident 
 which resulted fatally but not Instan- 
 taneous, whether the operator was un- 
 der obligation to pay $25 if the miners 
 worked. While it did not say so, that 
 was its obvious meaning,— I think It 
 was Mr. Ryan's and mine, and we have 
 changed it so as to give it that liberal 
 construction. So I move to substitute 
 the 17th clause of .the operators' pro- 
 posed scale. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— There was one case 
 came up under that clause, and we 
 were not certain what the Idea was in 
 drafting this. I know I put that con^ 
 structlon on it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That's the construc- 
 tion we put upon it at the time. I 
 don't know whether the other member 
 of our committee aereed that that was 
 the construction at that time. 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and it Was 
 carried). 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The 16th clause was 
 referred to a comimlttee consisting of 
 Duggan, Keefer, Lukens, Peters, C!utts, 
 for the operators, J. P. Morris, F. 
 Drewes D. Dagon, Wm. Hefti, Ed. 
 Seaton on behalf of the miners. They 
 were appointed March 4th, at the morn- 
 ing session. 
 
 MR. BENT:— When we went to the 
 
224 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 convention the committee on the 16th 
 clause of the present agreement was 
 instructed not to act. Some of the opera- 
 tors on that committee are engaged in 
 other committees no*tv, and I move that 
 a new committee be appointed of three 
 operators and three miners. (Second- 
 ed). 
 
 MR. DREWES:— I hardly see the use 
 of appointing a committee on it. I 
 believe there is a clause already that 
 we have adopited, that's just as giood as 
 the 16th clause. I do not see the 
 necessity of this clause in here. It 
 seenis, to me that it takes all the best 
 brains of our organization and the best 
 brains of the operators' organization 
 to interpret it. I think the operators 
 would be very glad to have it out of 
 there. I remember last spring when 
 the Danville convention was going on, 
 it took every delegate in that conven- 
 tion to interpret the 16th clause, and 
 we failed to interpret it, and I want to 
 say, I don't know, but I think the con- 
 tention is up yet about the interpreta- 
 tion. 
 MR. RYAN: — May I ask a question? 
 MR. DREWES:— Yes. 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Are you satisfied with 
 the interpretation of the 16th clause 
 you now allude to? 
 
 MR. DREWES:— No, I am not hard- 
 ly- 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Then why suggest that 
 the interpretation take the place of the 
 present 16th clause? 
 
 MR. DREWES:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 said we failed to interpret it. That is, 
 every delegate of that convention fail- 
 ed to interpret it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:^You said you had 
 adopted socmething that was just as 
 good. What did you allude to? 
 
 MR. DREWES:— I have reference to 
 the 5th clause of the present agreement 
 that we have already adoped. 
 
 (The motion to refer the 16th clause 
 to the special committee was carried. 
 Messrs. Keefer, Lukens and Buchanan 
 for the operators, and Messrs. Wm. 
 Hefti, J. P. Morris and Fred Drewes 
 for the miners, were appointed). 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— I move that we now 
 adjourn until tomorrow morning at 9 
 o'clock, for the purpose of getting all 
 of these, committees to work tonight, 
 to be able to bring in their reports. I 
 thinl): we will make more headway by 
 doing that, than to hold a session to- 
 night and keep these oommitees from 
 bringing in their reports. (Seconded 
 and adopted). 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 Peoria, lU., Sunday, March 9, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called tO' order 
 by Chait-man Ryan at 9:25 a. m. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— We, left off yes- 
 terday just after the appointment of 
 a committee to^ consider the 16th 
 clause. Do you wish to proceed with 
 the clauses under consideration, or to 
 
 take up the reports of the various com- 
 mittees. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It is the wish of 
 the oommiittee to (go' througb tho 
 agreement or take up the reports of 
 special commltteie this morning? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— If there are any 
 special committees ready to report, I 
 should think it would be advisable to 
 receive their report. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, the dirty 
 coal committee is ready to report. 
 
 Prom the beginning this committee 
 has been of one mind as to' the neces- 
 sity of having a paragraph that would 
 secure merchantable coal for the en- 
 tire state, and provisions sufficiently 
 drastic to reach the ten per cent of the 
 miners whoi will not of their own ac- 
 cord give us clean coal. The only dif- 
 ferences in the committee ■were as to 
 methods, and there it was not on ac- 
 count of the pronounced opinion of any 
 member of the committee, but because 
 every member was alike puzzled in 
 view of the admitted failure of the 
 plan of the present year and the last 
 year to accomplish the desired result. 
 Various plans were discussed and the 
 committee has finally presented a plan 
 here which has eliminated every ob- 
 jection which was presented on either 
 side to the features of the provisions of 
 the present contract. Your committee 
 recommends as follows: 
 
 In case slate, bone, clay, sulphur or 
 other impurities are sent up with the 
 coal by the miner, it shall be the duty 
 of whomever the company may desig- 
 nate as inspector, to report the same 
 with the estimated weight thereof, and 
 the miner or miners so offending shall 
 have such weight deducted from the 
 established weight of the car, and for 
 the first offense in any given month 
 shall be fined fifty cents; for the sec- 
 ond offense in the same month, or the 
 first offense in the second month suc- 
 ceeding the month in which there were 
 two such offenses he or they shall, at 
 the option of the operator, either be 
 fined two dollars or be suspended for 
 two working days; and for a third or 
 any subsequent offense In any given 
 month, or for the second or any subse- 
 quent offense in the next month suc- 
 ceeding the month la which there were 
 two such offenses, or in malicious or 
 aggravate4 cases for the first or any 
 subsequent offense, the operator may 
 Indefinitely suspend or discharge. 
 
 "The company's welghman shall post 
 in a conspicuous place at the pit head 
 the names of all miners dealt with 
 hereunder. 
 
 "The inspector designated by the op- 
 erator shall be a member of the Unit- 
 ed Mine Workers of America, but In 
 the discharge of the duties herein 
 specified, shall not be subject to the 
 jurisdiction of the local union or presi- 
 dent or pit committee; and any miner 
 or committeeman seeking In any way 
 to embarrass the Inspector in or be- 
 cause of the discharge of such duties 
 
Morning Session,, March 9. 
 
 225 
 
 shall, at the option lof the opera'tor, 
 either be fined ten aollars or discharg- 
 ed.- 
 
 "In case it shall be' alleged by 
 either the local representatives of 
 the miners or by the operator that 
 the inspelctor is not properly per- 
 formlngr his duities hereunder, it sihall 
 be so reporte'd to the miners' sub-dis- 
 trict president, who shall within forty- 
 eigrht hours after the receipt of noti- 
 fication, take it up with the superin- 
 tendent of the company for adjudica- 
 tion, and if it shall be found that the 
 Inspector is not faithfully performing 
 such duties he shall, at the option of 
 the operator, either be discharged' or 
 transferred to other duties. 
 
 "The proceeds of all fines hereunder 
 shall be paid to the miners' sub-district 
 secretary and treasurer, and under no 
 circumstances shall any such fine be 
 remitted or refunded. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I move the 
 adoption of the committee's report. 
 (Seconded). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman, there 
 are one or two thines that this is to 
 carry along with It which we did not 
 think would be proper to- put in the 
 agreement, but which should be made 
 a matter :0f record. One of them is 
 that in case of a discharge on account 
 of dirty coal, the miner's working place 
 should be taken into consideration. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Perry, pardon me". 
 That is if there is an_appeal to the sub- 
 district. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Certainly. If there Is.' 
 
 an appeal mad>;, in adjusting the case 
 tba't the partiies having thei adjustment 
 of the case would take into considera- 
 tion tiie working place of the man 
 who has been discharged; and another 
 is that the inspector designated by the 
 operator shall not be tied down to any 
 one place to peirform his woik. In 
 other words, he may go up along side 
 the screen and watch the coal as it 
 goes lover the) shaker screen. In load- 
 ing box cars it would be an impossi- 
 bility for a man to get in the car to 
 examine the coal or on the tipple. Or 
 anywhere dirty coal is found he has 
 a right to dock that car. And if the 
 foreman or anyone sees dirty coal he 
 hasn't a right to dock, but he may 
 call the inspector's attention to it, 
 and he is the sole judge. If the miners 
 make a grievance bf it, it shall be 
 taken up, and the minter's working 
 place who loaded the car shall be taken 
 into consideration in adjusting the 
 >^same. _ 
 
 MH. '^ENT:— One other thing to be 
 
 of record. The inspector is a member 
 of the miners' organization, and if we 
 are willing to trust him surely the min- 
 ers are and it should be stated, there 
 is no appeal from thte estimated weight 
 ooE the impurities reported by the in- 
 spector. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— While! there may 
 not be an appeal taken from that, the 
 
 miner's place should always be taken 
 into consideration. It always has been. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Then -if we should 
 find they were treating that man un- 
 justly by letting him work in a place 
 where it was not fit to work, we should 
 undoubtedly ask that the . man be 
 changed. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Perry's statement 
 is the understanding of the committee. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Are we ready to 
 vot^? (The operators voted Aye, 
 the miners voted Aye, and the report 
 of the committee was adopted.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Your commit- 
 tee on the 12th clause has b^effl' unable 
 to get together, because Mr. Duggan 
 for the operators and Mr. Drews for 
 the miners, are Serving on an'other 
 committee, and I think someone ought 
 to be put in their place. The work 
 might be e'xpedited If that were' done, 
 and by the way, I might add to that 
 the two miners serving on that com- 
 mittee work in room and pillar mines, 
 and know but little about long wall 
 mines and if there should be another 
 miner put on that committee in place 
 of one of those he ought to be a long 
 wall miner. 
 
 MR. BENT:— "We are quite willing 
 to go outside the sub-committee, Mr. 
 Chairman. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The secretary will read 
 the next clause. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The 17th clause of 
 the state aprreemj^-nt: 
 
 "The operators will recognize the pit 
 committee in the discbarge of its duties 
 as herein specified, but not otherwise, 
 and agree to check off union dues and 
 assessments from the miners and mine 
 laborers, when desired, on the individ- 
 ual or collective continuous order pre- 
 pared by the attorneys representing 
 both the miners and operators, as at 
 present existing, and when such union 
 dues and assessments are collected 
 through the office, card days shall be 
 abolished." 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 the 15th clause of the operators' scale. 
 The changes there are slight. It reads: 
 
 "The operators will recognize the pit 
 committee in the discharge of Its duties 
 as herein specified, but not otherwise, 
 and agrete to check off union dues, as- 
 sessments and fines levied under the 
 provisions of this agreement, from the 
 miners and mine laborers when de- 
 sired, on proper individual or collective 
 continuous order, and when such col- 
 lections are made card days shall be 
 abolished." 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— "What are the 
 changes, Mr. Bent? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The changes are two. 
 Mr. Russell. One Is, the present con- 
 tract does not provide for our collecting 
 any fines whatever. "We are willing io 
 collect any fines levied in pursuance of 
 this agreement. The second change 
 simply omits any reference to the form 
 of cbntin'uous order as being prepared 
 
Morning Session, March a. 
 
 by attorneys, because that has been 
 left behind, but we say a proper one. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Bent, we are using: 
 that yelt. 
 
 • MR. BENT:— Well, we are not rais- 
 ing any question on that at all, but 
 that is a part of ancient history now 
 and we will go ahead on a. proper col- 
 lective order. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I believe I see some- 
 thing in this that is pretty well covered 
 up that will probably make us some 
 trouble in the future. They agree to 
 check off any fines levied under the 
 provisions of this agreement, but if we 
 have any fines levied upon- our mem- 
 bers for violation of their obligations 
 or duties that they Imay owe to our 
 organization, then I suppose this means 
 they won't check them off. We mlgh^ 
 as well have that understood right 
 here. I would like to have Mr. Bent 
 explain that. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The present agreement 
 provides that we shall check off union 
 dues and assessments, and makes no 
 reference toi fines which your organiza- 
 tion levies whatever. We have never 
 agreed to collect any fines. During the 
 past year in certain cases we have 
 been asked to collect penalties imposed 
 by your side on the miners. These 
 penalties are of two classes, one of 
 which we consider entirely proper and 
 a part of our reciprocal arrangement 
 with you, and the cither class not. 
 Fines levied for the violation of 
 this contract, or fines levied pvtrsu- 
 ant to any provision of this con- 
 tract, we are just as willins to col- 
 lect as your regular dues. There have 
 been a few instances where we have 
 been called upon to collect fines not 
 levied in pursuance of this contract, 
 but levied upon men for doing- what 
 we claim the contract requires them 
 to do, and the attempt has been made 
 to make us a collection agency to pun- 
 ish men for doling what we say the 
 contract requires them to do, and what 
 some of your people say the contract 
 does not require them to do, when the 
 question itself has not b-eem adjudi- 
 cated to determine who is right. That 
 is -the only thing involved in this, and 
 those cases, I believe, have been few. 
 , MR. RUSSELL:— I was satisfied 
 when Mr. Bent read the clause that 
 I knew tWe: intention of It. Mr. Bent 
 and myself have had a little contro- 
 versy over this matter in the past, and 
 I desire to say to the operators that 
 to me it seems that it would be much 
 bet-ter for the operators to collect the 
 fines that we are asking them to col- 
 lect. They do not amount to very 
 much. It does not require very much 
 expense on the part of the operator 
 to collect the few fines that are being 
 imposed for the purpose of regulating 
 our members in the organization. We 
 believe that the operators are just as 
 much interested as we are in disciplin- 
 ing our men and bringing them to that 
 perfection which you desire as well as 
 
 we. If the operators refuse to insert 
 some clause in this agreement whereby 
 they will collect these few fines that 
 we assess during the contract year, it 
 simply means that you throw these 
 men back upon the organization, and 
 the organization will certainly have to 
 use the means within its power to bring 
 about that discipline. If we cannot 
 discipline our men through fining them 
 a dollar of fifty cents or whatever the 
 fine may be, and have the operator col- 
 lect that fine for us, then it simply 
 means that we must discipline those 
 men within our own ranks, and we 
 niust do it as beet we can. If that 
 means that we must lay those men off 
 from work, why we certainly will have 
 to do it. I don't believe that any con- 
 tract entered into between the operator 
 and the miners should stand in tbe -• ay 
 of the regulation of our organization. 
 If it does then it certainly is going 
 to create discord within the ranks of 
 the United Mine W^orkers, and it will 
 rebound upon the operator as well as 
 those we are trying to discipline, the 
 men within our organization. If it 
 amounted to very much, Mr. Bent, I 
 would not say a great deal in favor of 
 it, but there have been very few cases 
 that I know of in the past year, and 
 we believe that it has done moire good 
 and that we can do more good in dis- 
 ciplining the miners of Illinois through 
 fining them than we can by any other 
 means. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is not much in 
 what President Russell has said to 
 which we Itake any exception, what- 
 ever. There is no attempt on our part 
 to prevent your handling your own 
 matters legitimately in yffur own way. 
 Mr. Russell will notice that we have 
 come to you this year kjflEering a modi- 
 fication of this paragraph in your favor. 
 We did not undertake last year to col- 
 lect any fines whatever. We recognize 
 as much as Mr. Russell does the 
 propriety of the fines being levied, and 
 the advisability of our collecting them 
 for you, and we offer you a broader 
 proposition than you have ever had 
 before. The cases are few that -we 
 wish to 'exclude. I presume that it 
 will help to explain the point, to ex- 
 plain what the matter was that Mr. 
 Russell referred to. The operators in 
 the long wall field olaim, and the min- 
 ers have repeatedly recognized, that in 
 fractional days it is not uniformly 
 practicable for a miner to leave his 
 working place within an hour after 
 the shut-down. We have never, for 
 any of the mines of the state, agreed 
 to that provision. There is no such 
 provision in the state contract. In 
 some districts of the state there has 
 been a rule of that kind adopted by 
 the miners solely, and enforced. There 
 has been an attempt in some parts of 
 the long -wall mines of Illinois to en- 
 force that, and no attempt in other 
 parts. The miners are, many of them, 
 opposed to It, and local arrangements 
 
Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 227 
 
 which forbid it, are in existence today. 
 Some months aso a few fines were 
 levied in our mine on me'n for not cora.- 
 ing out of the mine on a fractional 
 day within an hour after the mine 
 shut down. We w«re asked to collect 
 a fine levied upon them of one dollar 
 each. We said we were quite willing 
 to collect the fine for men going into 
 the mine improperly on idle da-ys to 
 work, but that we were not willing to 
 collect a fine Imposed upon men for 
 doing what we held they ought to do 
 under the contract, and for doing some- 
 thing which the contract was absoHute- 
 ly silent about, while the contract did 
 give us eight hours a day, six days in 
 the week. We are convinced that we 
 are right as to that fractional day 
 matter, especially in the long wall 
 mines. But whether we are risht or 
 not, when any question comes up as to 
 the interpretation of the agreement, 
 and that matter has not been properly 
 investigated and adjudicated, it is en- 
 tirely Improper to Impo'se a fine upon 
 the men for doing what we say is their 
 duty, and then asking us to collect that 
 fine. There are very few such cases. 
 All the fines that you wish to levy for 
 the enforcement of this contract or 
 pursuant, to its provisions we will 
 cheerfully collect. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— As Mr. Bent has re- 
 ferred to this case, I desire to take thie 
 matter up for the purpose of demon- 
 strating if possible to the operators that 
 It will be far better for them to collect 
 the fines than to allow the United Mine 
 Workers to^ collect them through their 
 organization. I wish to call your at- 
 tention to the fact that you have 
 agreed with us that you will employ 
 none but union men in the mines' in the 
 state, and I desire to call your atten- 
 tion also to the fact thait the miners will 
 not work with non-union men. If 
 these fines are levied by our organiza- 
 tion they are but two or three dollars, 
 and if the operators refuse to collect 
 those fines, it simply means that the 
 United Mine Workefrs' local to which 
 the member is attached must Charge 
 this fine up to him as dues upon the 
 books. Our constitution provides — 
 and there must be such a provision In 
 every organization of similar character 
 — that when a fine is assessed it shall 
 be charged against a member's dtrss. 
 After it has run a certain length of 
 time and the member doesn't pay those 
 dues he is dropped from membership 
 and becomes a non-union man. The 
 danger to the operator then is this, 
 that when that member becomes a non- 
 union man the miners in that mine will 
 refuse to work with him and Instead 
 of your collecting a dollar fine, you are 
 liable to suffer the punishment of hav- 
 ing your mine closed down for a day 
 or a week or two or three weeks, be- 
 cause those miners will not (and yoji 
 know it) work with non-union men. 
 Then if the io'pera;tor refuses to collect 
 those fines, they are charged upon the 
 
 books to the members, and shortly the 
 member becomes a non-union man. 
 There is only one alternative then for 
 the operator when the men demand the 
 discharge of that man because he is a 
 non-union man; you must let him go 
 or you will have trouble at your mine. 
 I believe I told Mr. Bent this on this 
 matter that came up at his mine. I 
 asked him to collect these fines, and he 
 took the position that there was nothing 
 in the agreement that compelled them 
 to collect it. I certainly had to agree 
 with him. I took the continuous or- 
 der, and the continuous order does say, 
 "Dues, assessments and fines," but Mr. 
 Bent claimed, and I believe that he was 
 right in his contention, that it was on- 
 ly fines to be collected in the carrying 
 out of that agreement. Now I told 
 Mr. Bent in this case that he must do 
 as he pleased. If he saidlthat he would 
 colledt those fines, all trlght. If he 
 said that he would not collect them, aJl 
 right. But I wanted him toi say on© 
 or the tother that I might notify the 
 sub-district officers what to do. When 
 you refuse tioi ctolleot those fines you 
 throw it back on our organization to 
 collect them, and the organization will 
 collect them in the manner I have de- 
 scribed. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, may I 
 ask Mi;. Russell a question? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Tou have tny consent. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Do you think that It Is 
 right for the miners to fine any man 
 (collecting the fine through the office 
 or otherwise) for doing something 
 which is in controversy between your 
 organization and ours as to what the 
 contract really means, before that has 
 been taken up for adjustment. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Bent, I told you 
 that day that if you would collect the 
 fine and it was found that our people 
 were wrong in the matter the fines cer- 
 tainly could be returned or remitted. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But I mean further 
 than that, should- not the very fining 
 of the man be delayed until it can be 
 determined whether he is right or 
 wrong In doing those things, when the 
 company says the very thing is in vio- 
 lation of the agreement; then go ahead 
 with your fining if we are wrong? 
 
 MR. PERRT:— There are Some things 
 that happen in the course of a man's 
 lifetime that do not admit of delay. A 
 fellow gets a broken leg, he doesn't 
 want to delay having it attended to, 
 and nO' matter what disease may take 
 hold of a man's system, he wants to 
 have it attended to, the sooner the bet- 
 ter. The old saying of a stitch in 
 time saving nine is true in this case. 
 I dO' not think Mr. Bent would desire 
 his miners to become disorganized as 
 a body, and the case which he has 
 mentioned here simply meant that we 
 had to impose this fine and collect it 
 or we would lose our hold upon the men 
 at his place and they would become 
 disorganized. When we are unable to 
 discipline our members certainly they 
 
228 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 soon become careless; they care but 
 little for our laws and regulations; 
 they pay but little attention to our 
 commands and but very little attention 
 tO' the agreements that we have enter- 
 ed into with the operators. Only today 
 — ajid not only today but many times, 
 do the operators tell us that we are not 
 able to handle the members of our or- 
 ganization. I was told In a sub-com- 
 mittee this morning that we were not 
 able to make our men obey and live up 
 to the contrd-ct. If we have no means 
 of disciplining a man, if we can im- 
 pose a fine upon him and not be able 
 to collect it, or a penalty of any kind, 
 and not be able to execute it, what does 
 he care for our laws or our agreepients ? 
 He doesn't care anything. His own 
 selfish Interests will go far beyond the 
 interest of the organlzatlioln at larg-e. 
 Now these are facts, ana I hold in re- 
 gard to the matter that Mr. Bent 
 brought up, namely the fractional part 
 of a day, that it is a violation for a 
 man tO' remain in a m,ine after that 
 mine ceases to work. We agree with 
 you to work eight hours a day, but 
 does not the fact of our agreeing with 
 you to give you eight hoTirs" wiork a day 
 carry with It the impllcaJtion that upon 
 your part you have agreed to furnish 
 us with eight hours' work a day? It 
 would be impossible for us to work 
 eight hours a day for you if you don't 
 furnish it f oT us. This is not a , one- 
 sided agreement — I hope not anyway, 
 and whenever your mine ceases to 
 hoist coal, your driver ceases to pull 
 the coal away from the face — the min- 
 ers' working place, why then you have 
 no more work for him to perform. His 
 day is done, or his work is done. He 
 has fulfilled his contract, and to go on 
 adding labor that it may be credited to 
 the next day's work is in dlrec£ con- 
 flict with our agreement. 
 
 MR. BENT:— "We are making a 
 record on the fractional day question, 
 which has been referred to another com- 
 mittee. It only happened to be that in 
 this instance — and I was not intending 
 to discuss the mierlts of that question, 
 but simply whatever the question is, 
 if the operators interpret the question 
 one way and the miners another. Now, 
 Mr. Chairman, there is no question 
 whatever but that the miners and the 
 operators are after the same thing in 
 this matter. We are willing to broad- 
 en the contract so as to enable you to 
 discipline your men and enforce this 
 contract, and therefore have added to 
 the present contract our agreement to 
 collect fines imposed pursuant thereto. 
 I think, If this question is referred to a 
 committee of two miners and two op- 
 erators, that they can get together and 
 I move such reference. (Seconded and 
 adopted). 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The miners appoint 
 ad tbelr members lof this dolmmtt- 
 tee Thomas Jeremiah and J. B. Phil- 
 lips. The operators appoint Messrs. 
 Kincaid and Hull. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Mr. Chairman,, 
 the committee appointed to take up- 
 paragraphs D and F o( the 13th clause 
 have discussed this question, and we- 
 want the matter brought up here before 
 the joint committee and have this- 
 thing threshed out. We have reach- 
 ed a disagreement on the first para- 
 grraph here or the first part rather ot 
 paragraph F, which reads that "the 
 right to hire and discharge, the man- 
 agement of the mine and the direction 
 of the working force are vested ex- 
 clusively in the operator, and the U. M^ 
 W. or A. shall not abridge this right 
 by listing applicants for employment 
 or otherwise." The committee, Mr. 
 Chairman, in taking this question up — 
 the operators contend that this is an; 
 absolute nuisance, that certain abuses- 
 have been practiced last year that war- 
 rant a clause of this character. We 
 on the other hand contend that a clause 
 of this nature Is certainly detrimental 
 to our interests as it' accords the right 
 to certain mine managers throughout 
 the state to discriminate on any ground 
 whatever, whether It be from a per- 
 sonal standpoint or otherwise, and the 
 fact that the clause reads the way it. 
 does precluding us that right, we- 
 thought the best thing to doi here was- 
 to let the committee thresh this out. 
 We want the different views through- 
 out the state, to see how It has affect- 
 ed the various camps In this state^ 
 Perry says that the listing of applicants . 
 in his district has not been observed. 
 It has been in mine, and what gave- 
 rise to that was the disorimlnation on- 
 the part of the mine managers against 
 some of the men for personal reasons. 
 For Instance, take in our ileld where; 
 the mines work slack in the summer 
 time, some of the men leave and go to- 
 other employment, such as/t^orkitig on 
 the streets or on the buildings there. 
 They maintain their membership. If 
 the mine manager has some personal 
 spite against one of these men. it is 
 utterly impossible for him to get work 
 around that mine again. yVe think it 
 is an unjust discrimination. We would 
 like to bring that matter up here and' 
 have it threshed out, as we are unable- 
 to agree on it. 
 
 This part of paragraph D that reads,- 
 "Any pit committeeman who shall sup- 
 port or 'attempt to execute any rule' 
 or proceeding in confiict with any pro- 
 vision of this contract or whb shall 
 asstime any function as committeeman- 
 not specifically set forth herein shall' 
 be forthwith deposed as commltteeman- 
 and discharged by the company." We 
 contend also that that clause is rathter- 
 vast In Its influence. While we dis- 
 approve of the idea of a local ruling 
 confiicting with this agreement, yet we 
 think that the punishment that is pre- 
 scribed here is just a little bit tolo 
 strong. The committee -was satisfied' 
 to agree to the clause as it originally- 
 read, to the exclusion of this particular 
 part, but we certainly cannot agree toi 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 229 
 
 -the clause with that in. I think the 
 -best thing to do would be to thresh 
 this thing out in committee to reach a 
 more saJtisfactory conclusion. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— The first part of para- 
 «r£tph P, while I stated that we haxi no 
 list in vogue in, our district that I 
 knew of — at least I have nteVer heard 
 of It, yet we have had same trouble 
 along this line in the matter of dis- 
 •crimination. I know of a few instances 
 -certainly, few in number, where men 
 have been refused employment, and I 
 am satisfied for no other reason than 
 that at sometime in their lives they 
 bad been active members in this move- 
 ment. One man In asking a superin- 
 tendent for a position, who was super- 
 intendent ovter about four different 
 mintes, received the answer that if he 
 were to give him employment it would 
 
 , be all that his (the superintendent's) 
 Job was worth to him; that he wotild 
 lose his position, and I don't know 
 "Whether this man ever worked for that 
 ■company or not — I am not positive on 
 that point, but if he did it was long, 
 long agd. And he not only applied to 
 this company but to several other com- 
 panies for employment, and invariably 
 received a refusal. Another bad fea- 
 ture of that case is that this man has 
 ^ son the same name as himself, and 
 
 , -when his son applies for work at any 
 of these places he isi refused. They 
 ask him his name and that is sufli- 
 'Cient to bar him from getting work 
 -at any of those mines. Now, certainly 
 J dom't think that we have any right 
 to say to the operator, "Tou shall hire 
 such and such men." What I mean by 
 that is w^e have no right to be the 
 agents through which you must hire 
 -your help. I don't think that there 
 Is anyone in our organization that ex- 
 pects or desires that such should be 
 the case. "We believe you have the 
 Tight to handle your own business and 
 tc hire your own people, but remember 
 also this is an agreement beitween two 
 bodies, and we have a right to justice 
 from your hands as an organization; 
 -we have a right to look after our 
 members' interests, and to tell a man 
 that he cannolt obtain eimployment in 
 your min^ when your mine nnay be the 
 only one that is operating at a certain 
 place, and this man possibly owns his 
 bome in that little town, his family is 
 there, every dollar he has in the world 
 is invested there, and all the environ- 
 ments that go to make life happy are 
 found there for him, to tell him he 
 must g'elt up and get out of that town 
 and run him out of it — I say you ought 
 to have a thoroughly giood excuse to do 
 it. I believe there are cases even then 
 
 ' TVhere you are justified in saying, "Tou 
 can't work here." Certainly if you 
 have discharged a man since this 
 
 -movement began and it has been in- 
 vestigated or even if no investigation 
 bas been made, if he was discharged 
 
 ■for a good reason, because he violated 
 the contract or the agreement, or be- 
 
 cause of his unworkmanlike way of 
 doing his work, I don't say we have 
 any right to come and tell you you 
 must takfei this man back into your 
 employment. But if becaitse of per- 
 sonal trouble that may have arisen at 
 some time or another between the man 
 and the pit boss or the supetintendent 
 or a foreman, you refuse then, to give 
 him work, though he may be dropped 
 out of your employment, I say that is 
 wrong. It should not be a case where 
 perso,nal spite or difficulty should be 
 taken into consideration. "We would 
 like to have some understanding, some- 
 thing to go, in the records as to just 
 what you mean when you say the right 
 to hire shall include the right to dis- 
 charge, and that we shall not have 
 anything to say about it. And we 
 should like to have a thorough unxier- 
 standing of how much ground that 
 covers. 
 
 MR. CUTTS: — The operators take the 
 position that the phraseology employed 
 in the first part of ^paragraph P of 
 the pres'ent agreement simply concen- 
 trated and put in more legible form the 
 same expressions and intentions that 
 were covered by the corrtespondlng 
 clause €tt last year's agreement with 
 the addiyon that it had come to, the 
 notice of several opetrators of the state 
 that a new evil was creeping in which 
 they were compelled ,to confront in the 
 inatter of lis'ts being prepared, and that 
 the demands of the locals in regard 
 to those lists, that the men thereon 
 should be employed in Jth© ordeir in 
 which their names appeared as posi- 
 tion became vacant, or as It was 
 necessary to incrie/ase the force, with- 
 out taking into account the special fit- 
 ness of the men for the positions which 
 were open — the operators contended 
 that that was an undue infterferenice 
 with the right that naturally belonged 
 to. them. Speaking for myself — and I 
 believe the operators as a bodj'' concur 
 in toy vitews — I felt no hesitancy in 
 saying that no reputable and responsi- 
 ble officer would for a moment permit 
 his mine manager or even indulge him- 
 self in the luxury of discriminating 
 against a, man whose only fault was 
 thait at some time! prior to this move- 
 ment he had been detrimental to what 
 the operators then believed to be their 
 interest. "We took the position that in 
 the majority of cases it was immaterial 
 to the, operators whoi performed the 
 work, his color, his race, his national- 
 ity, his religion being matters with 
 which we had nothing to do so long 
 a? he performied the duties entrusted to 
 him. I think that answers in my behalf 
 the contention that Mr. Perry ' has 
 raised. 
 
 MR. J- B. "WILSON:— "We contend 
 there is certainly a very radical depart- 
 ,ure from the phraseology of last year's 
 agreement. Last year's agreement, 
 paragraph F, clause 13, reads, "The 
 operator or his superintendent or mine 
 manager shall be respected in the 
 
230 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 managrement of the mine and the dir- 
 ection of the working force. The 
 right to hire must Include the right to 
 discharge, and it is not the purpose of 
 this agreewient to abridge the rights of 
 the employer in either of these re- 
 spects." The proposed clause, Mr. 
 Chairman, reads that he cannot abridge 
 this right by listing applicants for em- 
 ployment or otherwise. It practically 
 precludes the right of saying anything 
 in the matter. We have no option. If 
 a mine manager says a certain man 
 shall go he may do so without assign- 
 ing any reason, under this agreement, 
 and we certainly want this agxeei- 
 ment couqhed in language so simple 
 that we can all understand it. We do 
 not want one that Js susceptible of so 
 many oonstrucitions. We contend that a 
 mine manager has no right to discrim- 
 inate against a man for personal rea- 
 ons. If an operator can show good 
 rea^sons why a man living right in that 
 town should not be employed by him, 
 we contend then that the companv 
 should have the right toi discharge him 
 or to refuse him work. But on the oth- 
 er hand if there is no other reason ex- 
 cept the reason of some personal rela- 
 tion on the part of that mine manager 
 we contend he certainly should receive 
 work in that mine, taking into consid- 
 eration his fitness for the position. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If a blacklist ever ex- 
 isted in the state of Illinois it disap- 
 peared long ago. The operators no- 
 where wish to exclude a man from work 
 on account of activity In the miners' 
 organization now or in the past. There 
 are a few men who if they were known 
 would not be employed in any mine in 
 Illinois. Those men are very few. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Tou saj^ there are a 
 few^ now. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, there are a few 
 How, if 'they were kntown', but they are 
 known to but few. Mr. Perry unques- 
 tionably referred to one of those men, 
 because I recognize the case. He is 
 a chronic trouble-maker who can no 
 more get over that propensity thaji a 
 leopard can change his spots, and I still 
 believe thart. a leopard cannot Un- 
 doubtedly up in our field there is one 
 man — and I know of but one, who prob- 
 ably could not get work in any other 
 mine than the one he is in if he should 
 apply for it, and yet there is not the 
 slighest understanding or agreement 
 about the matter. Simply his conduct 
 in the past is of common knowledge, 
 so that there is not a company or a 
 mine manager who does not know that 
 his presence in the mine would be 
 simply pernicious. Nobody knows that 
 better than the miners from our field. 
 To say that because a man is this that 
 a son cannot get work because he has 
 his father's name is a most untenable 
 contention, and while I remember 
 some years agO' the father and son 
 went together, sometime after I had 
 the privilege of hiring the son, and he 
 remained in our mine as long as he 
 
 wanted to. Now, gentlemen, there is 
 no black list; there is no desire to ex- 
 clude a man from a mine on accooint of 
 activity, but if a man is a chronic 
 trouble-maker or resorts to violence 
 with his own fellow workmen, or re- 
 sorts to violent acts against property, 
 it is only common prudence and a de- 
 sire for harmony that would make you 
 decline that man employment. 
 
 Gentlemen, back of this right to hire 
 and discharge (which we claim is the 
 inalienable right of an employer, the 
 right which every housewife exercises 
 in regard to her domestic help) is the 
 fact that this ds One of two things 
 upon which the security and permari- 
 ence of the mine-run system rests. 
 The miners contend that the mine-run 
 systetm ought to put a premium on 
 skilled labor, and ought to encourage 
 a better class of men, because they 
 say if the miner is paid for the slack 
 as well as the coal, the operator wi'I 
 hire lonly skilled men; he will not 
 knowingly hire an unskilled man, and 
 If he gets one he will get rid of him. 
 This and the 16th clause which guar- 
 antees the kind of labor that the miner 
 must perform and what kind of thing!» 
 the operator shall not pay for are 
 vitally essential to the maintenance of 
 the mine-run system. Should you chal- 
 lenge our right to discharge a man 
 who is unable to give us merchantable 
 coal, unable Ito give us as good coal 
 a^ we would get if we were on the 
 screen system, you have assailed the 
 mine-run system vitally. You cannot 
 defend In your state the mine-run sys- 
 tem exceprt by the argument you have 
 so often used, that it tends to the 
 getting of better miners. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — ^I believe Mr. Wilson 
 and myself both stated if you had a 
 reasonable and just cause to refuse a 
 man employment then we had no right 
 to ask you to hire him or to try tn 
 enforce his being employed. And one 
 of the reasons that Mr. Wilson, at 
 least, mentioned in his remarks, was 
 that of incompetency. If a man were 
 incompetent to perform the labor for 
 which he applied, that settled the busi- 
 ness. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But if you have a list, 
 what has competency got to do with 
 it, Mr. Perry? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I believe I stated for 
 my part that I was not in favor of a 
 lisit. I do not think the miners desire 
 to press the point of the list. If we 
 can have a thorough understanding 
 that you people on your part will drop 
 your blacklisting. Now let us be plaiB. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Our organlzatSon will 
 not stand for a blacklist, and our com- 
 missioner will not stand for a blacklist. 
 Let that go in positively. Now, who 
 is to be the judge of the competency 
 of a man except the one man who pays 
 the bill. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is a question in 
 itself as to the judging of these things, 
 and while you may not keep a black- 
 
Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 231 
 
 list among' your operators, you person- 
 ally wlill blacklist a, man. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I deny it, Mr. Perry. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't say you do, 
 Mr. Bent. 
 
 MR. BENT:- 1 deny any of us will. 
 II that thing has ever happened in a 
 solitary instance during the past year 
 it needs only to be brought to light 'o 
 noake us repudiate it to the expulsion 
 of the member. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Will you tell us why 
 tha)t man can't get work in that In- 
 stance? 1 
 
 MR. BENT: — Becavise no one wants 
 him. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Why don't they want 
 him? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Because his acts are of 
 common knowledge as being detriment- 
 al to the peace of any mine in our 
 field. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It is ndt because he 
 is not able to perform labor then? 
 
 MR. BENT:— He works his jaw too 
 hard. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Bent, has he evpr 
 had any trouble of that kind since this 
 organization — well, we will say, 1897. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Most o(f us, Mr. Perry, 
 have discharged him for cause. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Long before we had 
 this movement perfected as it is today. 
 Is not that true? 
 
 MR. BENT: — My company hag dis- 
 charged him twice, forgiven him once, 
 and discharged him the second time. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Was it not prior to 
 1897, Mr. Bent? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Well, is it not true 
 that we were not In a position as an 
 organization to discipline a man who 
 worked his jaw too much at the time? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Do you want me to 
 put In the record what members of your 
 organization have said to me about 
 him? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You can if you desire, 
 Mr. Bent. It does not make any differ- 
 ence. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The' record Is long 
 enough already. No one wants him. 
 The miners don't want him In the 
 mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't believe I 
 would take ud the case if I did not 
 desire the man 'to get a job. I say we 
 do want him to have work, and more 
 than that I say that wei as an organiza- 
 tion will endeavor our best to see that 
 he works his jaw less, at least, if he 
 doesn't work it less that he works it in 
 the right channel, and w^e are asking 
 you to help us discipline hlni if he does 
 it, and give hlim a trial in that way. 
 It is a personal imatter that stands 
 between that man and a position in the 
 mines, and that is just one of the 
 things, w^heither it is la blacklist kept 
 by the operators among themselves, or 
 whether it is only a blacklist at one 
 mine; if a tnan is refused work at a 
 mine because of somethSng personal, 
 something, he may have done as an 
 
 officer or a, member of our organiza- 
 tion and not because he i« incompetent 
 to do his work, right then I say that 
 is the very thing that we want ellmin- 
 ajted, and if you people want the list- 
 ing of applicants eliminated, we want 
 that eliminated. Now, that was just 
 the position I took on the committee. 
 It Is all I desire. It is all I ask. I 
 don't believe we have a right to say 
 to you you shall hire whoever we de- 
 sire you to hire, but we have a right 
 to ask that you on your side give a 
 reason why you Refuse a man work 
 when he has a ho«ie right at your 
 mines. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I have been listen- 
 ing to a discussion here that I know 
 a little about. I don't know since I 
 have been in the state of Illinois that 
 there has ever been a blacklist agree- 
 ment among the operators in this state. 
 I don't know that I ever heard of one. 
 , If there were one, I would be the first 
 on the floor to object. I would fight 
 it. I don't believe it would be honest. 
 I don't believe It would be just. 1 
 don't beliea'e it has ever been done. I 
 don't believe there is an operator that 
 wants it, thaJt is any operator of any 
 account at all. I am sorry to hear of 
 this thing because it certainly looks 
 bad on the operators' side unless they 
 can prove there is no such a thing. 
 Now, I take the position that in the 
 state of lUindis in the last year, I may 
 say for the last three years, that every 
 operator in the state has been wanting 
 good men, needing good men. I don't 
 believe he would be justified in allow- 
 ing any personal matter to interfere 
 between him and his superintendent 
 getting good men. I think if I were 
 needing a man today and knew he was 
 a good man, and my superintendent 
 objected to him for some personal spite, 
 I thBnk that I would Bet after that 
 superintendent pretty hard. I suppose 
 that every operator stands on that 
 ground. At least I should think that 
 had common sense would. But we 
 ought to have the privilege of the hir- 
 ing and discharging of our men, and 
 the disciplining of our men. We are 
 the ones who hp-ve to pay the bills. We 
 are the ones who have to take all the 
 losses. On the other hand, I take it 
 the miners have a right to leave me 
 when they please, at any time. I don't 
 believe I have a right to hold a miner 
 against his will. I believe he ought 
 to have the right to leave me on Mon- 
 day if he chooses and go wherever he 
 pleases. I thdnk that is a liberty that 
 every man ought to have. The miner 
 today (or tomorrow, today is Sunday, 
 and we 'ought to be at church) has a 
 right to square up his place tomorrow 
 night and ask me for his time. I ought 
 njot to objeOt. I Would give him his 
 time if I cou'ld. Now on the' other hand, 
 why should not I have the same right 
 to hire that man If I choose, if h« 
 wanted a job, or not hire him, as I 
 choose? I think it is a poor rule that 
 
232 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 doesn't wiork both ways, and I think 
 that if these two OTganlzatio.ns take 
 the stand they ought to that the rule 
 would be for the benefit of them both. 
 MR. BENT:— There are about 10,000 
 miners in ;northeTn IlUnotis. Out of 
 that I know of but oine who could not 
 get work in LaSalle or Bureau coun- 
 ties outside of where he may now be 
 working. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Where is he now, Mr. 
 Bent? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't really know. 
 The last time I saw him he Was at 
 the Columbus convention as a delegate 
 and he evidently had work in the third 
 vein field. 
 
 Now we are wasiting a great deal of 
 time if this question Involves one man 
 in ten thousand, because there is abso- 
 lutely no blacklist on that man nor 
 ever has been. "When we discharged 
 him and his brother many years ago 
 we did not tell our nearest neighbor 
 about the fact, and he had no trouble 
 in getting work from our nearest neigh- 
 bor. When, a few years afterwards a 
 general meeting was held in our field 
 to decide whtether to settle a strike 
 or not, and there was a divtision taken, 
 he led in an attempt to browbeat and 
 threaten with personal violence men 
 who favored a settlement at that time, 
 and because of the nature of what he 
 did and the publicity of it he doubtless 
 found trouble in getting work at near- 
 by mines; and even after that he got 
 work again. His brother was discharg- 
 ed with him at the time. His brother 
 was afterwards employed by us and 
 has been employed by us ever since, 
 which is evidence that there wasn't a 
 blacklist and there never will be as 
 long as this joint organization con- 
 tinues, because our organization will 
 not stand for it. But a man that 
 makes trouble and does harm, to miners 
 and operators aJike, if the operator 
 knows of that fact he does perfectly 
 right In not employling him. I was 
 glad when he got work somewhere else. 
 I didn't want him in our mine. He 
 has an innocent wife and family and 1 
 was very glad when he got work. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL: — This matter does 
 not apply to one man in ten thousand. 
 This thing has gone on in the state 
 of Illinois in past years until the miners 
 have become alarmed, and I want to be 
 included with those miners myself. I 
 don't want to be understood as accus- 
 ing the operators or even believing 
 that there is a concerted action on the 
 part of the operators of, Illinois in this 
 respect; but I do believe that there is 
 feomeithing of that nature upon the part 
 oit the mine , managers of the state of 
 Illinois. And the operator becomes an 
 accessory, I believe, by upholdiing the 
 mine manager in what he does. We 
 have frequently had these matters up 
 — Mr. Justi and myself, and the opera- 
 tors have co'me there and said that 
 they knew but little about the matter, 
 but the mine manager knew all about 
 
 it. We have had cases in the statt; 
 where we have gone to the operator 
 and asked that certain men— men that 
 we never knew before that there was 
 anything against them^men that have 
 worked all over the state of Illinou< 
 and have never had trouble before— 
 we have asked that these men be given 
 a job at the mine where they had 
 made application, and the operator had 
 said that he had nothSng against thfi 
 man, but the mine manager had some- 
 thing against him. In one case in the 
 state of Illinois a man was refused 
 work at a certain mine because he was 
 discharged at another. Now, if this 
 doesn't savor of blacklisting, I don't 
 know what blacklisting Is. And while 
 the operator may not be a party to it, 
 I want to say to you that it is the mine 
 managers, and I want to go upon 
 record here as saying that we have 
 more trouble with one mine manager 
 in the state of Illinois than all the 
 operators in the state combined. We 
 simply ask some protection for these 
 men. We ask that if a good miner 
 goes to a mine and asks for employ- 
 ment that he shall not be discrimin- 
 ated against and refused employment 
 because there is some personal differ- 
 ence between him and the mine mana- 
 ger. I believe that nine-tenths of the 
 cases that arose last year have grown 
 out of some disputes that arose at 
 some previous time between the mine 
 manager and the man who has made 
 the application for employment. I 
 want to say that when the operators 
 ask us miners to prove that such is 
 the case they are asMng something 
 that is very difficult to perform. It is 
 an utter impossibility to tell what is 
 in a man's mind, and to prove it you 
 must know what is in the mind of the 
 mine manager. We have contended 
 that if they will give these men em- 
 ployment and give them a chance, if 
 it is proven that they are making 
 trouble around the mines, that we as 
 an organization will help the mine 
 managers and the operators to dis- 
 charge these men. But I want to say 
 right here again that in past years m 
 my estimation, a number of the miners 
 of Illinois who are members of our or- 
 ganization have been placed upon the 
 blacklist. I don't want to be under- 
 stood as accusing the operators as put- 
 ting them upon the blacklist, but they 
 are there nevertheless, and we are here 
 today for the purpose of asking some 
 modification in that clause of our 
 agreement that will give protection to 
 these men and not throw them upon 
 the mercy of the mine managers of 
 the state of Illinois, a class of men 
 who rose from our own ranks and who, 
 like the pit committee that you com- 
 plain of, just as soon as they are in- 
 vested with a little bit of authority, 
 their heads begin to swell and they 
 want to give the o^her fellow the worst 
 of it. They want to bring- up every 
 old grudge that they ever had against 
 
Morning Skssion, March 9. 
 
 233 
 
 him In the past and the dispute or the 
 •Juss, the flght or whatever it may have 
 iDeen that they were engaged in in the 
 past may have been at a time when 
 the mine manager himself was digging 
 ■coal along side the man who has made 
 the application for work. This is what 
 we are asking, nothing more, nothing- 
 less, and we must have It in this agret- 
 'ment. 
 
 MR. BENT:— May I ask Mr. Russell 
 a question. Do you consider, Mr. Rus- 
 isell, that where a personal feeling ex- 
 ists between a mine manager and a 
 miner, regardless of whether one or 
 both is to blame, do you consider that 
 it is expedient for them to try to do 
 business together? Is it in the interest 
 ■of either the me^n or of the miner or the 
 -operator? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I should not con- 
 sider, Mr. Bent, that it should stand 
 In the way of the employment of that 
 man. You are doing business with tht 
 United Mine "Workers, not with an in- 
 •dividual. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is It not seeking trO'uMe 
 to try to continue a partnership of that 
 kind? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I dloti't think so. 
 The United Mine Workers have said 
 to you that if that man makes trouble 
 we will assist you in discharging him. 
 
 MR. BENT:— One more questioh. If 
 Mrs. Russell needed a domestic and a 
 neighbor had j,ust discharged one, 
 would not Mrs. Russell be justified in 
 investigating the matter a little more 
 •carefully before hiring that on'e than 
 perhaps hiring someone else against 
 whom she had heard nothing? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Ton mean if the 
 neighbor had just flre'd one? 
 
 MR. BENT:— TeS. Wouldn't Mrs. 
 ■Russell be justified In InvestilgaJting that 
 .-domestic more carefully than she would 
 one against whom, she had heard noth- 
 ing? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't consider 
 that there is any similarity in the 
 cases at all. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Mr. Chairman, 1 want 
 to ask Mr. Russell if of all the appli- 
 cations for work that have been re- 
 fused and have been afterwards jointly 
 considered by the officials of the min- 
 ers' organization and by the commis- 
 sioner of the Illinois Coal Operators' 
 association, how many of the men ap- 
 plying for work have been ultlmatelj 
 refused work? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I don't know but 
 all of them have, Mr. Justl, under the 
 -agreement. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— All of them have been 
 given work? ' 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— They have been 
 -given work through your asking the 
 'operators to give them work. It was 
 not under the agreement. It was 
 through your intercession that the/ 
 were given work. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I want to state that 
 what I have done I have done under 
 the agreement. Where I have found 
 
 that there was any reasonable doubt 
 in favor of the man I have always' 
 asked that he be given work. There 
 Is only one case to oome before us 
 jointly where we have refused to give 
 work, and that refusal followed the 
 decision of the miners' representatives, 
 who believed and who expressed them- 
 selves as believing, that the man should 
 not be employed; that he had himself, 
 by his own acts, destroyed all claim 
 he' had upon the company employing 
 him or the organization protecting him.. 
 I want to state also, Mr. Chairman, 
 that I have not during the past year, 
 found any evidence whatever of the 
 existence of a blacklist. I have found 
 several cases where either the opera- 
 tor or the mine manager refused t<} 
 give work because they believed that 
 the man who had applied for work , 
 might give trouble. But after a full 
 and free discussion by all parties con- 
 cerned, work was given In such cases, 
 although there might have been some 
 reason, perhaps, why, from considera- 
 tions of discipline' in the mine, the com- 
 pany had a perfect right to refuse them 
 work. So far as the operators of the 
 state of Illinois are concerned, those 
 that are in the association, I have not 
 had a single case where the operators 
 have tried to Infiuence me to go con- 
 trary to my judgment, either in insist- 
 ing that a man should or should not 
 be employed. Thev have in every in- 
 stance yielded to my solicitations wher^f 
 the appeal has been made that the 
 miner should be reinstated. I believe 
 we can go on under this clause, as 
 presented, and. there need be no trouble 
 in the coming year. If any pit boss 
 or mine manager usurps authority arid 
 unjustly discriminates against men, I 
 am confident that if the' case be taken 
 up jointly and considered with the 
 same fairness that has marked our 
 action In the past year, no ihan who 
 is refally entitled to a place in a mine 
 will be refused work. I make this 
 statement, lyir. Chairman, because I 
 desire that the record shall be complete, 
 and that the case shall be made out 
 that there is not only no blacklist, but 
 that no blacklist will be tolerated by 
 the operators upon the part of the 
 mine managers. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, that 
 is exactly my understanding. I want 
 to s?.y again that I don't believe th^s 
 \ias an action upon the part of the 
 operators' association lof lUinoisi I 
 have laid the blame of the entire mat- 
 ter upon the mine nianagers. I stM 
 cf ntend that the mine manager is . to 
 tlsme in this respect, and what we 
 desire Is something that will protect 
 us against the mine manager. We ire 
 willing to take our chances with the 
 cperAtor every time. What Mr. Justl 
 say?" is true. He has interceded with 
 the operators, and re-instated these 
 men, but I want to say again that in 
 almost every caSe where Mr. Justl has 
 succeeded in re-Instating the men, he 
 
234 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 has done it through the operator ai;d 
 still the mine manager had to be com- 
 pelled by the operator to withdraw his 
 objections. He has never been satisfied 
 even though the man was re-instated. 
 Then again we have cases In this state 
 where mine managers — in one particu- 
 lar case that I remember of, the mine 
 manager said the man in question was 
 all right, and that he was perfectly 
 satisfied he should work in the mine, 
 but the operator in this instance was 
 the man who refused. Now, give us 
 scmething in that agreement this time 
 that will protect us from the mine 
 manager. We consider that we have 
 prctection so far as the operator is 
 concerned. But let us insert something 
 in that agreement whereby if we prove 
 that the mine manager, in refusing our 
 . men employment through personal 
 spito or personal feeling or something 
 of the kind, will be subject to discharge 
 by the operators' association. That is 
 what we are asking. And I want to say 
 to you that we cannot go on under 
 this agreement the coming year. Ws 
 have had too much trouble the pa.st 
 year. "We have had many cases that 
 hiive never reached the notice of Com- 
 missioner Justi, because we have taken 
 the position that under the agreement 
 they had the right to hire and dis- 
 charge. We took this position In the 
 beginning of the scale year in every 
 Instance, unless — I made this provisiim 
 as Mr. Justi I think will bear me out, 
 that where we could prove that a man 
 was being discriminated against for 
 being active at some time In a strike 
 or something of that kind, that we cer- 
 tainly Would not allow that man to be 
 discriminated against for that cause. 
 That Is the only thing that we, in the 
 beginning, took into consideration, the 
 fact as to whether the man had beon 
 an active member at some time, 
 whether he had taken an active part 
 in the strike of '97 of some other strike, 
 it didn't matter what it was; but after- 
 wards when the mine managers, as I 
 contend today, foiund we were willing 
 to live up to that agreement and give 
 t"> them the right to hire and discharge, 
 then they began to discriminate against 
 our men because they don't like the 
 man, because they thought that the 
 man might possibly at some time give 
 them trouble. I want to say to you 
 that it is not right for a mine mana- 
 ger to surmise sormething and then 
 make that man and his family suffer 
 for it. Give us something in that 
 agreement this time that will say to ns 
 — and let the burden of proof rest upon 
 us as United Mine Workers, to prove 
 that mine managers are doing what 
 we contend they are today — that will 
 say to us that if they are doing it 
 they must go. That is what we ask. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I want to s-^y 
 there are other cases where mine man- 
 agers discriminate against men, bn- 
 cause they know more than the mine 
 manager does. I had one case of that 
 
 kind and I got him his place back after 
 I had taken it to the company. The 
 mine manager said he would quit his 
 Job if I got that man reinstated. While 
 I was down in West Virginia the coni- 
 pany hired him as mine manager ai^a 
 discharged the mine manager. 
 
 MR. BENT:— All these thi-ngs go to 
 prove the same thing, that where the- 
 mine manager is at fault the operator 
 sides with the miner and the man gets 
 his work. It proves that our associa- 
 tion takes the same position our com- 
 missioner has. The record is clean. If 
 a mine manager is dissatisfied when a 
 man is reinstated through the influ- 
 ence of our commissioner he will be 
 equally dissatisfied if he is reinstated 
 on account of some provision in the 
 contract. Tau have yet to show where 
 we have failed to accomplish what you 
 want without it being in the contract. 
 Mr. Jeremiah cites a case where the 
 mine manager discriminated against a 
 man and the operator himself decided 
 in favor of the man. The mine mana- 
 ger quit and this man was hired as- 
 mine manager. The record shows that 
 our association is against any such 
 discrimination. The record shows that 
 our commissioner has invariably se- 
 cured the employment of the man 
 when the matter has come to him un- 
 der such circumstances. If a mine 
 manager is dissatisfied when a man is 
 reinstated through the influence of our 
 commissioner, he would be just as dis- 
 satisfied if he were reinstated under 
 the provisions of a contract. 
 
 I think there is a good deal of un- 
 necessary apprehension in regard to the- 
 mine managers as an organization 
 Our organization does not recognize 
 the mine managers' organization in any- 
 way. The mine manager is our agent 
 and he owes allegiance to us alone. 
 But I know something about the rela- 
 tions that exist between the mine man- 
 agers of a district. The miners in oar 
 district are in good accord; the opera- 
 tors are in good accord; the mine 
 managers are not. They are jealous of 
 one another. One mine manager seeks 
 opportunity to hire a dlscontendod 
 miner from another, and the trouble is 
 not through the co-operation of mine 
 managers, but on account of the rivalry 
 that exists between them. The only 
 strained relations that occur between 
 the companies in our field conies 
 through the rivalry of these very mine- 
 managers. The organization of mine 
 managers can never accomplish any- 
 thing along the line of discriminating 
 against men, because neither you nor 
 we will stand for it. Now the antip- 
 athies of the individual mine mana- 
 gers can only be corrected by evidence- 
 being submitted to us that they exist, 
 and then we as individual operators will 
 deal with it, and if we don't our com- 
 missioner will let us know what he 
 thinks about it. Human nature is the 
 same everywhere and men have their 
 likes and dislikes and our mine mana— 
 
Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 235 
 
 gers are no saints. But'in their collect- 
 ive capacity you have nothing to fear, 
 and in their individual capacity you 
 have the judgment and support of the 
 mine operator. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 there have been several cases, as Mr. 
 Russell stated, that have been bi-ought 
 to the attention of Mr. Justi, and we 
 must say that he has acted fairly in 
 each and every case that was brought 
 to his attention. I Itnow mysislf of 
 places where men are driving four or 
 five miles right past the mines at their 
 own home and cajinot get employment 
 there, not because they are not- good 
 miners or not because they are not 
 good citizens; simply because the mine 
 managers do not like them. Take Mas- 
 coutah for instance. There are men 
 living in Mascoutah who have lived 
 there ever since there has been a mine 
 there, and it was through the strik2 of 
 1897 that those men are discriminated 
 againsit. They are driving dbwn 
 to Renitchaer. They put thiedr names 
 down to get work at Mascoutah, and 
 the operator refused to give them work. 
 I took the case up myself ajid tried to 
 get him to give these men work and 
 he positively refused to d'o it. I advis- 
 ed the^inien to not push the matter any 
 further. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The mine at Mas- 
 coutah is not a member of the associa- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I want to show 
 you they are discriminating against 
 our people. There are men driving or 
 walking fi*om Tilton _ to White Oak. 
 They can't get work at their own hoipie. 
 I have knOfWn men to -drive from 
 CollinsvSlle tO' Glen Carbon all 
 through the winter because 'they 
 couldn't get work alt the mines 
 there, and they wouldn't make any 
 fuss about it. We know that in 
 Springfield there are men driving or 
 walking Ave miles when there are 
 mines almost at their door. Those men 
 cannot get work, and there is no trou- 
 ble about it simply because they won't 
 have any trouble about it. There isn't 
 a thing in the world against those 
 men only that the mine manager has 
 pome personal grudge against thenu 
 Not because they are not good miners; 
 as a rule the very best miners we have 
 are the ones that are discriminated 
 against, and a great many of them are 
 discriminated against simply because 
 in times gone by they were connected 
 with the organization and were strug- 
 gling to build up the organization. I 
 kno'w some of them myself. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I was going to 
 suggest that the mine superintendents 
 do the hiring and discharging, and the 
 mine managers have not the authority. 
 I think that is the rule in our state. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE: — I want to staite to 
 the operators present this morning that 
 in my district there is a gentleman here 
 representing one part of the district 
 who has been a delegate twice to the 
 
 state oonventiion and who is one of the 
 best men that we have got in the state 
 of Illinois in any way you want to 
 take him', who cannot get work at the 
 mines where he lives. He owns prop- 
 erty there and he has to drive five miles 
 
 to a little place at . He can't 
 
 get work there because the superin- 
 tendent of thait place took exceptioii! to 
 him for our five or six years ago. I 
 claim that there ought to be an in- 
 vestigation made in his case, and as 
 far as the individual is concerned, I 
 don't think Mr. Justi or an operator in 
 this state will take any exceptions to 
 the character of the individual either in 
 the way of personal character or in his 
 workmanship. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 trouble seems to be that the cases have 
 not been taken up. It is admitted that 
 wherever the cases have been taken up 
 they have been settled fairly. NoiW 
 why are they not all taken up? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Justi, didn't we 
 keep you fairly busy last year? 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Not on cases of that 
 sort alone", but taking everything, I was 
 kept fairly busy. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I thought so. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I think a word should 
 be said in defense of the mine mana- 
 gers. There isn't a man here who 
 does not knO'W that the mine manager 
 has a very hard job; — it is a hard posi- 
 tion to fill and a very goqd mine mana- 
 ger is sometimes led to do things that 
 to us here who consider the m3,tter 
 cooly and deliberately, and entirely 
 apart from the incident itself, dO' not 
 seem right and that we here do not 
 approve of. But he does them under 
 impulse and because severely tried and 
 provoked, just as all of us sometimes 
 do things under the impulse of* the 
 moment for which due allowance is 
 and of right should be made. Now 
 men are not so numerous, Mr. Chair- 
 man, that a mine manager really de- 
 sires to' exclude from work new men 
 Who are competent. The mine mana- 
 ger, as a rule, has the entire responsi- 
 bility of the working force upon his 
 hands, and men working in mines are, 
 as you know, like boys in a school, they 
 like to play tricks upon the mine mana- 
 ger; they like to talk back, and they 
 like to find fault, and as Mr. Jeremiah 
 said a little while ago, citing a case 
 where the man knew more than the 
 mine manager. One trouble is, that 
 a good many men feel that they know 
 a good deal more than the mine manaj- 
 ger, and they try in an offensive way, 
 to show that they know miore than the 
 mine manager. As a matter of course 
 they immediately have their difficulties 
 with the mine manager, and if they 
 don't, it isn't their fault. I am sa'tis- 
 fied that all the cases that have been 
 cited have not been taken up and if 
 they had been taken up, they would 
 have been settled to the satisfaction of 
 all parties concerned. Some cases have 
 been cited that do not come under our 
 
■236 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 jurisdiction, the operators not members 
 of our association. Our association 
 employs only members of your organl- 
 ■zation. Your association deals only 
 ■with the Illinois Coal Operators' assoi- 
 ciatioji, and with no one else, and we 
 certainly should not be held responsible 
 for what is done by operators who are ' 
 not within our own folfl. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We will take care of 
 that. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— The reason that 
 these cases have not been taken up is 
 Tjecause of the agreement. The agree- 
 ment gives you the right to hire and 
 discharge, and in almioat every cas_e It 
 has been taken up where the men have 
 "been given employment it has been done 
 by Mr. Justi interceding with the op- 
 erator. I want to ask Mr. Justi if he 
 knows that in the state of Illinois to- 
 day we have a check weighman, a man 
 over whom the operator nor the mine 
 manager nor anyone else has jurisdic- 
 ■tio'n, and yet we have a case in the state 
 of Illinois where the mine manager has 
 served notice upon us that that man 
 -could no't work upon that dump any 
 longer, that he would close down the 
 TTiine; and he has gone farther and he 
 lias emphasized it by saying what he 
 would be — if he ever allowed that man 
 to work there, and to save trouble this 
 organization has taken that ,man off 
 the dump, and we have gone further; 
 we have paid him his wages from -the 
 ■state treasury. Now you know nothing 
 of these cases. I cite this to show you. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is this man a njember 
 •of our organization. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Yes, ne is a roem- 
 t)er. 
 
 MR. BENT: — You are mistaken. Nor 
 in that other instance that was cited. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— One of them waa 
 though, when this case happened. 
 
 Mr. RUSSELL:— I only cite this to 
 -show you this is what our organiza- 
 tion has been doing in this respect. We 
 Tiave been trying to keep from haijjng 
 trouble, and we want, to keep from hav- 
 ing trouble along that line this year, 
 and we have got to have something in 
 this agreement to protect us. That is 
 what we are contending for. We must 
 have it. As I said in the beginning 
 here, it Is growing upon us. It Is get- 
 ting so big we canrtot handle it, and 
 ' -the result is that unless you do give us 
 something half of your mines are go- 
 ing to be closed down during the com.- 
 ing year in Illinois, agreement 'or no 
 agreement. It has only been through 
 the efforts of the officers of this organ- 
 ization that many mines have been 
 kept going. W^e simply had to go 
 there and fight the men to keep them 
 going, and if they take the bit in their 
 teeth the officials will be powerless to 
 keep them working, and then you will 
 blame not only the official"? but the 
 ' whole organization, and everyone else 
 because your mines are closed, down in 
 violation of the agreement. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— The operators have 
 
 shown a desire to uphold the officers 
 of the miners' organization in doing 
 their duty. They are not reproachmg 
 the officials for the manner in wliich 
 they have discharged their duty. They 
 appreciate the fact that they have a 
 hard task, as we have done in the past, 
 so we expect to do in the future, every- 
 thing in our power to make their labor 
 as light as possible and to work with 
 them to secure the proper operation of 
 the mines represented in this joint 
 movement. 
 
 With regard to the subject of the 
 check weighman, simply to show that 
 our organization has taken an abso- 
 lutely fair position In that matter, and 
 has acted promptly in the only case 
 that has come before us. Where an op- 
 erator claimed that the check weigh- 
 man should be selected from the men 
 In the mine, I think a protest was sent 
 up to the commissioner from a number 
 of the operators, claiming that it would 
 be hurtful if the check weighman were 
 selected in any other way. We took 
 the position that while the fear was 
 entertained by the companies that such 
 a practice would be injurious, at the 
 same time we took the position, ■with- 
 out one moment's hesitation, that the 
 coal operators had nothing to ^ay in 
 the matter; that the check weighman 
 was to be elected in the manner pre- 
 scribed by the state mining laws. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That is true. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That is right. 
 
 MR. W. T. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 as I have stated before, if the state 
 officials of the association of operators' 
 were the parties that we came in daily 
 contract with, you would have no 
 trouble, but neither side Is always at 
 hand, and while It is true probably the 
 commissioner of the operators' associa- 
 tion has by his acts given prestige to 
 the miners' organization, yet the fact 
 remains that in numerous cases ipen 
 have laid out of employment for 
 months at a time before' cases could 
 be taken up, and in numerous cases the 
 state officials or the local officials have 
 requested the parties to ■withdraw their 
 complaints and seek work elsewhere 
 when unjustly dealt with. I believe 
 we are not far apart on this matter 
 from the expressions made here, and 
 while we are not far apart, why not 
 make the penalty to cover both sides? 
 Now in addition to the cases that have 
 been represented I know personally of 
 employes that there were no objections 
 to making application being refused 
 work, and the next minute hiring men 
 that they never knew, strangers. 
 AVhen asked why they were doing this 
 they simply said. "These men own 
 their homes here and will remain here 
 anyhow. Strangers if denied work 
 ■will go on and probably in a month or 
 more we will need men. We will have 
 the home men anyhow and by giving 
 the stranger employment we will In- 
 crease the number of m'en in the mines." 
 Now that has been done. It is done 
 
Morning, Session, March 9. 
 
 23T 
 
 for the business interests, and at the 
 expense of the man who ha/S made his 
 home there. He has probably made 
 the operator of that locality. It is the 
 abuse of the fair privilege of hirins 
 that in most cases has caused a local 
 list to be prepared. It is these abuses 
 of the privilege that has caused that. 
 It might be in some cases that it has 
 been abused, but it simply was the 
 abuse upon the other side that caused 
 it to be put into efEect. Again It has 
 been stated and it is a fact that the 
 mine manager fears the man that is 
 equal to taking his place, and desires 
 that he be away from that locality if 
 he intends to remain. Another feature, 
 it is natural that the mine manager 
 should seek to make a good record for 
 himself by getting out the coal econom- 
 ically, by reducing the cost of produc- 
 tion, even though in seeking to attain 
 this he violates an agreement which 
 we have entered into. It is also a 
 fact that we have nien who are mem- 
 bers of our organization who rather 
 than have disputes will submit to con- 
 ditions pressed upon them for fear of 
 being discharged. I know cases where 
 mine managers have Insisted that men 
 do certain things when they knew the 
 men didn't have the grit to uphold the 
 right that was given them under the 
 agreement. Then there were other 
 men who went and appeared in their, 
 behalf. The mine managers became 
 offended, and very often the superin- 
 tendents also, and state^ if we did not 
 have those characters in our mines, if 
 we could get rid of them, we would be 
 rid of all these complaints. Now while 
 this may not be a general rule, yet it 
 occurs, and while we get up Ijere and 
 one side cites cases on the other, it 
 applies to both, and what I state is a 
 fact to some degree. It is the abuse 
 on one side or the other that causes 
 a remedy that will be radical. But In 
 this remedy I believe we should see to 
 It that neither side can abuse it, so 
 that it will be fair all around. Now 
 while we appreciate the services of the 
 commissioner and appreciate the inten- 
 tions of the operators association, yet 
 it takes time to reach these things and 
 innocent men have to suffer, and when 
 the miners as a whole, regardless of 
 how conservative they are, see inno- 
 cent men suffering, it causes them to 
 become radical and adopt measures 
 that probably they can take the abuse 
 of on the other side just as well. 
 
 COMMISSIONER JUSTI:— I want to 
 ask Mr. Morris if it is not a fact that 
 if such a clause were Inserted in. our 
 joint agreement there would be even 
 greater delay in settling any dispute 
 affecting employment, because if you 
 are going to try the case or investigate 
 the grievance, you would also be ob- 
 liged to investigate the grievance of 
 the mine manager; therefore you would 
 have two investigations instead of one. 
 Now I want to say, Mr. Chairman, that 
 It is an admitted fact that there is 
 
 . comparatively little trouble in a ma- 
 jority of the mines in the state of Illi^ 
 nois. It is also an admitted fact that 
 where there is trouble, that trouble is- 
 brought on by a very small minority 
 of the men. Did you insert in our 
 joint agreement a clause providing for 
 the trial of a mine manager, you would 
 find that thofee few men who do give 
 the trouble now at the mines, would 
 give even more trouble, because all of 
 them would want the mine managers 
 tried on some charge at some time ajid 
 instead of helping things you would 
 simply incijease the delay in adjusting; 
 the grievances that exist, by creating- 
 new grievances. 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— In the question pro- 
 posed by Commissioner Justi, taking it 
 in the broad sense, it is true there 
 might be more time spent investigat- 
 ing grievances when there were two 
 parties to investigate, but I wish to say- 
 that a clause of that kind would eli- 
 minate a number of cases you would 
 otherwise have to investigate, because 
 under the present system the mine- 
 manager has nothing to lose and all to 
 gain. Under the provision that I stat- 
 ed making the penalty equal, there Is 
 the chance of the mine manager if he 
 is wrong losing the same as the miner^ 
 
 MR! MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman,, 
 it has occurred to me that if this com- 
 mittee expects to 'frame a clause that 
 will prevent mine managers from dis- 
 criminating, they will And it a hope- 
 less and impossible task, and it is use- 
 less to go on and talk about it. There 
 isn't any doubt about it. We are all 
 discriminators, and you will never be 
 able to find a way to change the dis- 
 positions of men. It seems to me that 
 in the few cases where mine manager^ 
 discriminate against men who make- 
 application for work, it can only be rem- 
 edied by the locals when they feel 
 that it is a grievance taking it up in 
 the usual manner that we take up all 
 grievances, and as has been stated by 
 the commissioner was done in past, 
 years. It is useless to talk about try- 
 ing to prevent mine managers from dia- 
 criminating, because they will. There is 
 not a man in this room that does not 
 discriminate more or less in his asSoc- 
 iaitions, both business and social, and 
 will continue to do so, because it is his 
 disposition, I know I do it, and I don't 
 think there is a man in this room that 
 doesn't doi it. Now if if there isi any 
 rank discrlminatiiin done it should be- 
 referred to the local, and let them talte- 
 it up in the usual way, and if they feel 
 that they have a well grounded case 
 then It should go to the commissloner- 
 for adjustment; but you cannot form a 
 clause in this agreement that -will pre- 
 vent mine managers from disoriminat- 
 ing against men. That is an impossi-- 
 blllty and it Is useless to talk about It.- 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— In answer to Mr. 
 Moorshead, I believe the question prac- 
 tically that you are arguing, is the 
 operator objecting to the list adopted 
 
238 
 
 Morning Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 liy certain locaJi'ties. I stated a while 
 Ego that probably the cause of that 
 list in numbers of localities was the 
 abuse of the farmer privilege. If that 
 is the case, it soems tO' me that we 
 can come 'to an understanding and 
 adopt some clause that will prevent 
 the rank discrimination which first 
 was the cause of the adoption of this , 
 list. I believe we understand each 
 other enouffh that that can be done, 
 and to adopt a clause that would give 
 the mine manager or the superintend- 
 ent — now I do not lay it always to the 
 mine manager — very often I't is the 
 case that the superintendent dictates 
 i*; but to adopt the clause that gives 
 them further power in this matti^r, 
 A^'ould be kindling the fire and adding 
 fuel. But we can adopt one that I be- 
 lieve will prevent both sides from being 
 radical in the matter. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The mine manager 
 question has been very fully discussed 
 here. It is a question that is steadily 
 settling itself. The mine manager 
 whose conduct is wrong finds himself 
 when a grievance comes to our com- 
 missioner not suhtair.ed, and when the 
 decision is agaihst a company affecting 
 the action of a mine manager ne is 
 to that extent discredited, and his 
 prestige in the administratfon of mat- 
 ters in the mine has suffered, and if 
 that happens a number of times the 
 company will certainly dispense with 
 his services. T do not believe, sir, thi.t 
 thejre is an operator — certainly not a 
 reputable operator in the State, who if 
 his attention were called to the wrong 
 conduct of his mine manager would not 
 in his own way find a remedy. It is 
 shown that our commissiioner has acted 
 liberally in the spirit of the agreement, 
 not following the letter, in the interest 
 simply of justice, whenever these ques- 
 tions have come to his attention'. I 
 _ apprehend that fewer questions are 
 going to come to our commissioner as 
 time goes by, instead of more; but if 
 the proper investigation of these mat- 
 ters should gfive lour co^mmissiioner 
 more to 'do than he can da alone, oar 
 commissioner will have an assistant. 
 
 Now, gentlemen, we must comie Iback 
 to the vital questiO'ns involved in what 
 we are considering. It is vitally neces- 
 sary under the mine-run system that 
 the operator's right to hire whom- he 
 considers comipetent shall be absolutely 
 unimpaired. It is necessary to the oon- 
 tinuous operaition of the mine and the 
 maintenance of harmo'ny that the pit 
 committeesi shall not enabraoe regula- 
 tions or take adti'on. theni'Selves that 
 eo'nflict wi'tlh the state agreement. Thosie 
 are the two things that are vitally im- 
 portant, that we say must be in the' 
 new contract. The mine manager 
 question certainly will take care of it- 
 self — is taking care of itself. Tou have 
 every operaitor on your side, you have 
 the association on your side, and you 
 have our commissioner. 
 
 MR. PERRY: -^ Mr. Chairman, It 
 
 seems to me that we are drawing this 
 discussion out to a great length. When 
 we brought it up, we did n*>t expect 
 It to consume so much time; but there 
 is one thing I wish to say. Mr. Justi, 
 Mr. Bent and Mr. Moorshead have 
 drawn our attention to the fact that 
 there are practically a small minority 
 of miners employed in the mines who 
 are the cause of this contention. I 
 would like to call their attention to the 
 fact that the disease of discrimination 
 is a great deal like some of the dis- 
 eases that attack 'the human family; 
 smallpox, for Instance. There is com- 
 paratively a small minority of our 
 population today who are aJEEected with 
 it, and yet because we take stringent 
 measures to keep it from spreading, we 
 quarantine it wherever It is found, and 
 that is what we will d'o with this. I 
 wish to say that If we were to take 
 up every case of the kind of dis- 
 crimination that is taking place 'today 
 in tiie very field from which I come, 
 it would require not only my time en- 
 tirely and that of some official of your 
 organization, but it would take help 
 Take it right in my own camp. X 
 know 'that there are a hundred men 
 who live in that valley today who can- 
 not get employmen't in the valley If 
 they w^ere to go and ask for it, and they 
 don't go and ask for it, and the case 
 has never come up because they realize 
 the fact that they canot get a job 
 and they don't ask for it. They are 
 going, some of them, three, four and 
 five miles to get w'ork, back and forth 
 ion the train, walking or driving, the 
 best way thei' can. And If it were 
 sifted down the reason of this I believe 
 would be found to be nothing more 
 than a question of religion. If that 
 is the question that we are going to 
 altow people to discriminate on I think 
 it lis high time to put something in our 
 agreement that is going to stop it. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I don't think 
 from the statements made by the oper- 
 ators that we are very far apart on 
 this question. It occurs ito me that 
 inasmuch as the operators have shown 
 that their intention is not to discrimin- 
 ate that they should entertain no ob- 
 jection to eliminating that clause as it 
 reads. I certainly would be in favor 
 of piitting in a clause that would pro- 
 tect to a certain extent. We are not 
 in favor of putting in a clause that 
 would permit such discrimination as 
 this. We have had some experience In 
 past years wTth clauses that were sus- 
 ceptible of as many different interpret- 
 a'tions as that would be, and we want 
 the agreement this year couched in suf- 
 ficiently simply language, so that there 
 will ndt be any eight or ten definitions 
 of it. It is about time to cut that fea- 
 ture out. ' I think if the operators would 
 put a construction on that clause 'n 
 last year's agreement and let us under- 
 stand what they mean by it, and let 
 that become a part of. the records', we 
 Could very nearly oome together, but 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 239 
 
 the clause as it reads in ithe proposed 
 agreement, Mr. Chairman, I want 'to say 
 I for one am opposed to It. I can't 
 underhand why they should attempt to 
 put a clause in that precludes us from 
 the right 'to take "up a case under any 
 circum^tajices. I says, "Either by the 
 listing of applicants or otherwise." It 
 admits of too much latitude of inter- 
 pretation. 
 
 MR. AGEE: — I would like to ask the 
 miners If an operators who knows some 
 miner who is working in a neighboring 
 mine is a disturbing element, and if 
 that miner makes application to him 
 for a job, has" he got to show cause 
 why he doesn't want that man in his 
 mine? 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I want to ask 
 what you mean by disturbing element? 
 
 MR. AGEE: — ^We have a case in our 
 town. We have two mines of our awa, 
 and there are other mines close to us, 
 some of them within a mlile. Thiey all 
 live in our town^that is, the miners 
 whoi are in most of the mines live in 
 our town, and always have. We have 
 a number of miners In our town who 
 work over at Spauldlng. They have 
 never worked for us. W^e did not bring 
 them in there. They came there to 
 work for the other mine. I am using 
 Spauldlng as an instance. There are 
 other mines. There is Clear Lake and 
 Barclay not far off. Now, in one of 
 those mines they have a nest of min- 
 ers who are radicals. We hear of their 
 trouble every time they have it. We 
 know who those men are and we are 
 willing they should wo(rk over there! 
 as long as they want tO', but we 
 don't propose that we shall be forced to 
 take them if they apply to us for work. 
 I want to ask if that is your conten- 
 tion, that in case these men should 
 apply to us for work, that we must 
 show cause why we don't want them? 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I wanlt to say 
 that a committee of myself and Mr 
 Perry said very emphatically that we 
 were opposed to any committeeman or 
 any miner creating a condition that 
 was a departure from this agreement 
 that we have made, or attempting to 
 evade it. We contended that no local 
 rules should oonflict with ithe provisions 
 of the agreement; that the operator 
 would certainly have a right to request 
 the organization to, and We should as- 
 sist the operator in, reprimanding any- 
 one who would db so. But if the oper- 
 ators contend thait this radical man, as 
 they term him. Is an Individual who 
 stands up and contends for the provis- 
 ions Of this agreement, we want to 
 say that we are certainly not going to 
 permit the operators to discriminate 
 against (the individual merely because 
 he takes an active part. For them to 
 turn around and say because a man 
 acts in an active capacity or stands 
 pat on what he considers righlt iinder 
 the provisions of this agreement, we 
 are certainly not going to say that that 
 man should be discriminated agaihatl 
 
 either by the mine operator or the 
 mine manager. 
 
 MR. AGEE:— I don't think you have 
 answered the question yet of whether 
 you contend that we should eimploy 
 those men or not. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— That is a hypo- 
 thetical case, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— May I answer that for 
 you. Brother Wilson? Before I answer 
 the question, if the gentleman will al- 
 low me, I would like to thoroughly un- 
 derstand the question. I believe as you 
 put it, it was something like this: Are 
 you obliged tto hire a man whom you 
 know to be a disturbing element In the 
 mines where he works or had worked', 
 without an investigation. 
 ,. MR. AGEE:— Thalt is it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would say that you 
 have no right to refuse him work with- 
 out any investigation. 
 
 MR. AGEE— Then may I ask you if 
 you think we should make a pergonal 
 investigation of fifty or a hundred men 
 who might comie to us from one of 
 those mines; that wte have to stop and 
 make a personal investigation of those 
 men if they happen to apply 'bo us for 
 work. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If you want to refuse 
 him work, yes, sir. May I give you a 
 reason why I answer you in that way? 
 Because you state that that man is 
 a disturbing element, you don't know 
 that he is. How do you know that the 
 reason he caused a disturbance lover 
 in the Spauldlng mine is his own fault 
 or the fault of the people who operate 
 that mine, who are perhaps trying to 
 have something done over there that 
 Is in direct conflict with the agreement, 
 and that they consider him a disturb- 
 ing element because he stands up fo^ 
 the rights that the agreement gives 
 him. Without an investigation you are 
 nlot lable to determine that. 
 
 MR. AGEE:— Then we are forced to 
 employ a man to stay over there to 
 have absolute knowledge, to hear what 
 > is said and know a man is a disturber? 
 Can't we know from the reports we 
 get from day 'to day from the men 
 themselves of the trouble that comes 
 up? 
 
 MR. PERRY:- No, sir. A general 
 way of getting information is not a 
 reliable way. When you refuse a man 
 work at 'the place where his home is 
 it is a vital thing to do, practically 
 breaking up his home, breaking the ties 
 that bind the family together. I want 
 to say that that is so vital that be- 
 fore such a thing should be permitted 
 you should be obliged, along with us, 
 t'o investigate to see whether the 
 ground that you have taken upon the 
 hearing of the people in general is cor- 
 rect or not. 
 
 MR. AGEE:— This is the case, Mr. 
 Perry, where we d'on't bring those peo- 
 ple in there. They move in there to 
 work in these other mines. I am not 
 ta.lking about somebody who may have 
 lived there years ago, brought there 
 
240 
 
 Morning Session, March 9. 
 
 possibly to work in our mines, but peo- 
 ple wlio come there and move in to 
 work in other mines. 
 
 MR. PBRRT:— It certainly would 
 make no difference what the reason of 
 his going- to a place was. If I have my 
 home set up there, it would certainly 
 be just as bad for me to break up my 
 home and move it because I happened 
 to come there to work at some other 
 mine, as It would if you broughlt me 
 there. The effect would be just the 
 same. I 
 
 MR. AGEB:— We have no quarrel 
 with them and don't want to have, and 
 thaJt is the resison we don't want to 
 employ them. I dton't believe you will 
 get any operator here to agree to allow 
 that sort of a thing tw prevail. 
 
 MR. RUSSELI.^:— Don't you employ 
 anybody at your mine except those you 
 brought there to work in your mine? 
 
 MR. AGEB:— We employ people who 
 oome from^ the outside. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Would you not have 
 the same right to object 'to employing 
 men who came from. Williamson county 
 or Spring Valley? 
 
 MR. AGETE:- We would. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- As you w'ould have 
 to employ those who live in Rlverton 
 and work at Spaulding? i 
 
 MR. AGBE: — ^We WOiUld, and we have 
 had cases where miners came in that 
 we didn't know, and they proved to 
 be disturbers and quit afterwards, and 
 we claim the right not to take those 
 men back again if they apply for work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- That Is a different case 
 from what you cited. 
 
 MR. AGEB: — If we know in advance 
 
 that a man is a disturbing element 
 
 and we don'lt want him, we don't care 
 
 to take chances on him. We claim a 
 
 \ight not to do busine-ss with him. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— If the consltruc- 
 tibn placed on this "disturbing ele- 
 ment," as the operators term It, is 
 whaltl said a minute ago, I can't see 
 why we should agree to a clause that 
 ■would carry with it that construction. 
 I want Ito say 'that if the man is in- 
 competent or if any act of his em- 
 barrasses or inconveniences that mine 
 and the operation of that mine, the 
 oiperator has certainly goit that right. 
 We als)o co'ntend that if the miner has 
 carried on and performed his work 
 right, that no personal grudge on the 
 part of either the mine manager or the 
 superintendent should stand in the way 
 of his receiving employmen't. The con- 
 tention of Mr. Agee regarding men 
 living in his town and working else- 
 where, I will say In regard to that, 
 tha:t instances of that kind can only be 
 taken up as they arise. Hypothetical 
 cases cannot be decided. We would 
 have to find out what reasons the 
 company gave for refusing him work 
 and why the man demanded to Work. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am of the opin- 
 ion that the chief objection of the 
 operators to the modiflcatl'ons which 
 President Russell has asked for, is the 
 
 danger of having our organization in- 
 sist that men shall be employed m the- 
 order of their application regardless of 
 their personal fitness to perform the 
 work required. Now, I don't think- 
 there is any disposition on the part of 
 our organization 'to make a rule that 
 would require the employment of any 
 man who happens to want work regard - 
 less 'of his personal qualifications or 
 fitness 'to do the wiork. What we want 
 is some protection against the actloD- 
 of some of 'the pit bosses in turning 
 men away on account of quarrels or- 
 personal prejudices, and I desire to of- 
 fer an amendment to paragraph P of 
 clause 13, to make it read as follows: 
 "The operator or his superintendent or 
 mine manager shall be respected in the 
 manage^ment of the m,ine and the di- 
 rection of the working force. The right 
 'to hire shall also include the right to- 
 discharge, and It is not the purpose of 
 this (agreement 'to abridge the rights 
 of the employer in either of these re- 
 spects." Now add after that the fol- 
 lowing words: 
 
 "The mine managieir in exercising this- 
 right shall not discriminate against any 
 employe or applScajit for employment, 
 because of personal prejudices or the 
 applicant's activity in matters affecting 
 the U. M. W. of A., and as far as con- 
 sistent with the proper operation of the 
 mine, men shall be employed Ini the- 
 order of their applica;tloin." 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, would 
 Mr. Mitchell ihterpret rioting or In- 
 citing to riot as activity in behalf of 
 the organization? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — The organization 
 certainly would not regard any act oif 
 lawlessness as activity In behalf of the 
 U. M. W. of A., because thie U. M. W. 
 of A. would be among the first to oon- 
 diemn any act of lawlessness, and we 
 do not believe there was ever an act 
 of lawlessness that helped us. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 trouble is not With what Mr. Mitchell 
 seeks to accomplish by his amendment^ 
 it seems to be just what in the ordi- 
 nary course of business every super- 
 intendent and mine manager ought to 
 do. The trouble is that It assails the 
 inalienable right of an eimi)loyer to 
 select the people that he shall employ. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— Does Mr. Mitchell's- 
 amendment do that? 
 
 MR. BENT:- Tes, sir. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — I do not so understand 
 it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It specifies that he shall 
 hire whom he please, and second that 
 he shaU please to hire whomever asks 
 for 'employment. It Unmedlaitely, -with 
 limited qualifications, specifies that he 
 shall employ the men In the order of 
 th'elr appdloaton, with oertaln limita- 
 tions. Now, gentlemen, the r'Ight of 
 the employer to Idrei whom, he con- 
 siders it proper to hire is an InaaienaWe 
 right pertaining to all employmenit, 
 whether in coal mines or anywhere 
 else. Tou cannot safely change this 
 anywhere and least of all und^ the 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 241 
 
 mine-run system. Mr. Morris' argu- 
 ment a little wh'lle as'o wiooild reBolve 
 itself intoi this: You cannot compel 
 anybody toi work in your mine's; you 
 cannot compel anybody to stay in your 
 mines; yooi cannioit refuse to give any 
 man work; you cannot refusie to con- 
 tinue to employ him. That, with cer- 
 tain limitations in debate here. Is what 
 is proposed by Mr. Ferry and others. 
 Now, we say our right tO' select the 
 mien we shall hire is inalienable, and 
 it must be unquialified. "We do. say that 
 our organization and our commiissi'on 
 will stand tor no discrimination of the 
 kind that Mr. Mitchell refers to in his 
 amendment. We do say that our right 
 to discharge is limited by the provis- 
 ions that we put in this contract and 
 by nothing else. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Mr. Chairman, 
 If that be the case, why should we 
 havfe an agreement couched In lan- 
 guage that carries -with it so many diff- 
 erent oonstructions as this does. Why 
 not let us say in this agreement so we 
 will all understand it, ajid not leave 
 It so the maniag'ers will take advantage 
 of the agreement if it is couched iu the 
 language it is. We contend the lan- 
 guage of the agreement shouild be 
 changed so it will mean just what the 
 operators think it should mean and 
 not let it go out and have so. many 
 debates this year on what clauses 
 mean. 
 
 MR. NEJWSAM:— Is this organization 
 not asking more than any other organi- 
 zation that we ever heard or knew ofi? 
 I don't know today of any organization 
 that asks that the employes shall be 
 employed according tO' the order of 
 their application. Suppose today we 
 should go to a railroad maniager with 
 a locomotive engineer and make that 
 requirement. I don't think that that 
 would be in line. I know they pick 
 their own engineers and their own 
 crews generally. That was pretty near 
 the rule, but I don't know of any rule 
 where a fireman cannot get to be an 
 engineer sometimes in tw^oi years and 
 three years; I don't knoiw of any rule 
 wherie the organization demands they 
 shaU be employed in turn. Now, I 
 believe that we ought to get down to 
 this at once. I don't think there is a 
 great deal to it. I don't think we are 
 far apart. Mr. Mitchell's motion was 
 very nearly in line till he got down to 
 hiring men in turn. I think we ought 
 to get a committee on tbis. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to inform you, 
 Mr. Newsiam, that the matter Is in the 
 hands of a committee. The committee 
 came in and asked to have the matter 
 discussed in order that they might 
 have sortie information on it. The 
 matter Is in the hands of the com- 
 mittee and if there is no further dis- 
 cussion the committee will be again, 
 instructed to take the matter up. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — This question has been 
 given considerable attention by a num- 
 ber of gentlemen present, and I would 
 like to move that the clause in ques- 
 
 tion be referred to National Presidenit 
 ■Mitchell and President Russell on the 
 pant of the miiners and Mr. Cutts and 
 Mr. Bent on the part of the operators. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Justl, the matter 
 is now In the hands of the joint aava- 
 mittee. Is it your intention by your 
 motloni to take it out of the hands of 
 thaJt committee'? 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I have no objection to 
 the release of that committee. All I 
 wont is tO' have the matter settled as 
 quickly as possible. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — But the committee has 
 not asked tO' be released. The matter 
 is m the hands of the committee. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— We would be glad to 
 be relieved, and I second Mr. Justl's 
 motion. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I had no Intention 
 whatever of reflecting on the com- 
 mittee, Mr. Ctoaimiain, and I doi not 
 know^ Who was on the committee. The 
 only objedt in making the motion was 
 to bring this thing to a head as quickly 
 as possiblei. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Tlife motion is out of 
 order. 
 
 J. B. WILSON:— The committee 
 thresihed this mivtter out very thor- 
 ougWy. They can arrive at no' oon- 
 olusiion on this matter. The operators 
 are contending for the clatise as lit 
 reads in the proposed agreement, and 
 I want to say in order to define my 
 position very clearly on that matter, 
 that as' a member of that oomimlittee 
 I am certainly opposed to the clause as 
 it reads, so It is up to the scale com- 
 miittee. I don't see why we should not 
 settle it here. By the argument 
 brought out it is evident we are all in 
 favor of a clause along that line, but 
 we want it clear. We want to avoid 
 the possible chanoe of a mine mana- 
 ger discriminating against a miner, 
 ajnd Why we can't selttle it here I don't 
 understand. It Is utterly useless to 
 send that back. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I desire to call your 
 attention to the fact that other oom- 
 miittees have apparently been as wide 
 apart as your committee is now, but 
 they have not only at this convention 
 but ait other conventions succeeded In 
 getting together, so I think that with- 
 out taking up any further time that 
 this maitter should go back toi the same 
 committee, and have tlhem bring in 
 some! report, either disagree or agree, 
 and thfen it Will le time to refer it to 
 another committee. 
 
 On motion, the committee adjourned 
 until two o'clock p. m. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peioria, 111., March 9, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order 
 by Chairman Ryan at 2:25 o'clock, p. 
 m. 
 
 (The secretary read the 18th clause of 
 the present agrreement). 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move as a substitute 
 the 19th clause of the operators' scale. 
 (Read the clause). Seconded. 
 
212 
 
 Afternoon Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 MR. BENT:— This clause relates al- 
 together to emergency work, and ex- 
 traordinary repair work, and In asking' 
 the addition which we do, we provide 
 that none of the regular employes shall 
 be displaced on account of it. It sim- 
 ply provides that when we have either 
 emergency work or ordinary repairs in 
 excess of what our regular employes 
 can take care of that we can take other 
 men without hindrance. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman, last 
 summer we had a case at Mr. Bent's 
 mine of a cai'penter who was employed 
 by Mr. Bent and to whom he was pay- 
 ing less than the scale rate for a car- 
 penter. He claimed he had a right to 
 hire and pay this rnaji under the 18th 
 clause in the present agreement in the 
 manner which he did. The word "or- 
 dinary repairs" he said covered the cir- 
 cumstances. This man was a carpen- 
 ter who repaired the rock dump. The 
 rock dump, when it became filled up 
 with rocle, they would have to put an 
 extension to it; or repairing pit cars. 
 And he was steadily employed at that 
 mine. Sometimes he might be sent up 
 to work on the houses of the company. 
 Other times he might be taking some 
 person's place •who didn'lt get to the 
 mine for some cause or other, probably 
 sickness, but who did not report for 
 duty. But when not engaged in filling 
 someone's place at the mine he was re- 
 pairing cars or repairing the rook 
 dump, putting an extension to it; and 
 he claimed that under this agreenxent 
 where it said "ordinary repairs" he 
 had a right to employ that man and 
 bring him in and he not being a mem- 
 ber of our organization they even 
 should not pay the scale rate for him. 
 For my part personally I would not 
 agree that the words "ordinary repairs" 
 be placed even in last year's agree- 
 ment, because "ordinary repairs" is 
 something that may he had every day. 
 It might be a permanent position that 
 you would have for a man doing ordin- 
 ary repairs. 
 
 MR. CHAIRMAN:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Bent a question. Is it the in- 
 tention of this clause as you have pre- 
 sented it now, to cover a case such' as 
 Mr. Perry has mentioned? 
 
 MR. BENT:- We very much prefer 
 not tO' consider any of these clauses 
 with relation to any one mine. The 
 statement here does not relate to any 
 particular condition. The matter that 
 has been referred to was an extraordin- 
 ary one. In that case it was contend- 
 ed that a mine of ordinary size if It 
 had a practical shaft carpenter stead- 
 ily employed at the scale rate had cov- 
 ered all the provisions of the scale rate; 
 that a man such as that could easily 
 do all the work that a mine of that 
 size could require. There had been an 
 extraordinary conditilon existing for a 
 year and a. half on account of very 
 large Investments that had been made 
 for a property of that size. There had 
 been formerly either one carpenter or 
 
 a carpenter and an assistant employed, 
 the assistant being required almost en- 
 tirely on account of about seventy tene- 
 ments and various other interests of 
 the company not relating, at all to the 
 production of coal. But that man be- 
 ing called off and on to the rock dump 
 or things of that kind, when the prac- 
 tical shaft carpenter had more than he 
 could do. There have been complaints 
 for quite a length of time on account of 
 the extraordinary conditions referred 
 to, which have entailed since three 
 carpenters in the employ of the com.- 
 pany; one at the shaft all the time, 
 one away from the shaft all the time, 
 and a third at the shaft part of the 
 time and part of the time elsewhere; 
 and the company maintained that hav- 
 ing a practical shaft carpenter at the 
 scale rate all the time, when this sec- 
 ond man was called at the shaft to 
 assist he was not covered by the con- 
 tract, because it was either extraor- 
 dinary conditions or ordinary repairs 
 outside of the normal. That is a pecu- 
 liar condition that has ended. Our 
 contention for the state is that haying 
 the normal force at any mine including 
 carpenters that are required, when 
 there are extraordinary conditions, or 
 when the ordinary repairs temporarily 
 are in excess of what the ordinary force 
 can do, that provided no man on the 
 regular force is thrown idle, the com- 
 pany has a free hand providing for the 
 extraordinary conditions or excess of 
 ordinary repairs, but never to the 
 throwing of United Mine Workers idle 
 on account of it. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — I don't think you have 
 answered my question. I asked if this 
 substitute offered by you was intended 
 to cover a case such as Mr. Perry just 
 mentioned. In other words, would you 
 insSst this year if this clause were 
 adopted, that you would have the right 
 to employ a toan along the lines laid 
 down by Mr. Perry, he not to be a 
 member of our organization? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Our understanding of 
 that would be that if it were an extra- 
 ordinary condition and temporary, yes; 
 if continuous, no. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted No and the substitute was lost). 
 
 MR. BENT:— But no reasons have 
 been givSn. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— If it Is In order now 
 the special committee on clauses D and 
 F of the 13th paragraph would like to 
 report. They "would say that they have 
 held three sessions and given the mat- 
 ter very careful attention, and regret to 
 advise you that they have been unable 
 to formulate any clause on which they 
 could both agree. They would there- 
 fore ask to be discharged. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I wish to say 
 on behalf of the miners that we concur 
 in the report made by Mr. Cutts. We 
 certainly disagree on that proposition. 
 We cannot come together, and we ask 
 the committee to take it up as a whole. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— Is that the understand- 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 243 
 
 ing of both sides of the committee, that 
 you report a disagreement and request 
 the committee to take it up as a whole? 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— That Is correct. 
 MR. CTJTTS:— With the further state- 
 ment that It is quite evident from the 
 efforts we have made that it will be 
 impossible for that committee to agree 
 on the framing of any clause that 
 would cover what Is desired by both 
 sides. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that the report 
 be received and the committee dis- 
 charged. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to say 
 that this committee have not disagreed 
 as to the spirit of the question that is 
 in controversy, but we could not agree 
 upon the -wording. It seemed as if the 
 spirit that each side manifested was 
 in accord, but the letter of the thing 
 we could not agree on. So we are un- 
 able to frame a clause that will meet 
 the ideas of both sides and be agree- 
 able. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I am opposed 
 to again referring this matter tio a sub- 
 committee or to a committee for this 
 reason, that the operators after con- 
 sultation with the members of their 
 association have conxe back and told 
 us that It was necessary that the phras- 
 eology of that particular paragraph 
 remained just as It Is. W^e are oppos- 
 ed to it, notwithstanding the fact that 
 the operators say they are willing to 
 go on record to specifically define what 
 Is meant by that particular clause, we 
 pontend that the agreement itself 
 should be in sufficiently simple lang- 
 uage so we can all grasp it, and not 
 leave It susceptible of so many differ- 
 ent constructions. We believe that the 
 right of defining when discrimination 
 occurs, should not be vested solely in 
 the operators. We do not say our or- 
 ganization has a right to say who 
 should or who should not be employ- 
 ed, but we say we have a right to op- 
 pose any idea on the part of any mine 
 manager or superintendent of the right 
 to discriminate against any miner who 
 may seek employment on account of 
 personal malice or spite or anything of 
 that sort. We believe that this ques- 
 tion here as It stands now does not in- 
 volve the demanding of work for any 
 and all parties regardless of their com- 
 petency or otherwise, but it is a ques- 
 tion of justice to both sides, and we 
 contend that the miners' organization 
 here has as much right to say in a 
 case of that kind where the individual 
 is competent, where the operator can 
 show no good reason but personal 
 spite,— we say we have a right to say 
 that the man shall be employed and 
 we can show g'ood^ neasohs why he 
 should be. We are certainly opposed 
 to the operators ta.klng the stand that 
 they have the right to prohibit any 
 man from work on any ground what- 
 ever. It is too broad. We certainly 
 could not submit to it. 
 MR. CUTTS: — As a member of that 
 
 committee I have felt very strongly on 
 the position that was taken by the op- 
 erators. I desire to expressly disavow 
 any unkind feeding 'or any discourteous 
 statement that I may make, feeling so 
 'mteresteid in the proposition as I do, 
 ^r.d fejring ihat in unwinaing the prop- 
 osiiltion from the reel I .might be 
 deemed unnecessarily harsh. With that 
 explanation and that apology in the 
 start, if it please you, in case I say any- 
 thing that may be considered too 
 rough, I want to say that the right of 
 an operator to hire and discharge is in 
 my opinion and the opinion of the com- 
 mittee, an inalienable right that be- 
 longs to the operatbr solely and alone 
 to decide without any question as to 
 the reason why he takes such action. 
 In saying that I am not influenced by 
 any unfriendly feeling towards the 
 proposition that is brought forward 
 that every miner or every man seeking 
 employment Is entitled to a careful con- 
 sideration of his claims. I expressly 
 disavow the right of any mine mana- 
 ger or any employe charged with the 
 hiring of men, or Indeed of any oper- 
 ator, to hold against a man anything 
 that arises -from his connection with 
 the mining industry prior to the inau- 
 .gniration of this movement, or anything 
 because of his activity in enforcing any 
 regular requirement or rule of the con- 
 tract under which we labor. No one 
 would be quicker than myself to disci- 
 pline a mine manager who allowed 
 personal prejudice and personal spite 
 to interfere with the employment of a 
 man. We don't believe that the cl3,use 
 in the contract couched in the truest 
 and clearest English of which we are 
 capable should carry with It any rider 
 that will permit the.qilestion to be op- 
 ened by any local in the state. We 
 believe It would add to our already 
 lai-ge number of contentions, and we 
 do not feel that they ought to be add- 
 ed to. At the same time we believe as 
 a practical measure that it is not neces- 
 sary to refer many of these questions 
 up to the commission; we believe that 
 actuated by the right spirit in case 
 discrimination Is shown, that when it 
 is necessary for a representative of the 
 miners to take it up with the officers 
 it will be cheerfully, promptly corrected 
 if anything of that kind exists. The 
 moment you admit the list you put 
 yourselves in a position where you will 
 be seriously embarrassed in a gTeg,t 
 many directions. I b&lieve It will be 
 quite possible for the Illinois Operators' 
 asisociati'on to frame a 'letter to send 
 it to their different members and en- 
 deavor by the force of example and the 
 force of urging to have them live up In 
 a general way to the statements that 
 I have made; to my definition. And I 
 believe further that the cases that 
 would require adjudication by the 
 higher court of the state officials and 
 of the Illinois commissioners would be 
 very few in number. That is the feel- 
 ing that I have in the matter and one 
 
244 
 
 Afthrnoon Session, March 9. 
 
 that I think is shared in by a larss 
 majority of the officers. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Mr. Chairman, 
 as one of that committee, I am perfect- 
 ly willing that the clause in last year's 
 agreement be incorporated a;S the para- 
 graph F of the coming' year's agree- 
 ment, carrying with it the statement 
 made by the operators. If it is the in- 
 tention of the , operators to say that 
 that clause is merely to protect them 
 from imposing upon them incompetent 
 men, we are willins to accord them 
 that. At least I am for one. But I 
 am certainly not willing, Mr. Chair- 
 man, to say that In the face of the 
 record the operators should say that 
 they would place the construction they 
 have upon this clause and yet Incor- 
 porate in the agreement a clause car- 
 rying with it the phraseology of the 
 present proposed agreement. We are 
 opposed to that. The operators under 
 their own statement have got all they 
 want under the former clause if they 
 want it. What they have stated on 
 this floor as their construction of the 
 substance, I am iii favor of. And I 
 move — If I understand, the clause we 
 are debating now is the one we are 
 working under? 
 
 MR. RTAN: — The clause you are de- 
 bating is the one referred to the com.- 
 mlttee. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I move the 
 adoption of paragraph F of the pres- 
 ent agreement. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. BENT: — In what respect Is the 
 proposed clause different from the 
 clause in the present agreement ex- 
 cept that it is a little more explicit and 
 less ambiguous. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I want to sav 
 that there is the whole trouble. It Is 
 too explicit. 
 
 MR. BENT: — It means the same 
 thing, doesn't it? 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— It doesn't mean 
 anything of the kind. It simply says 
 the operators shall have the right ex- 
 clusively, and then goes on to say they 
 shall not list applicants or otherwise. 
 In other words, you might as well say 
 a man has absolutely no rights. That 
 whenever a mine manager, superin- 
 tendent or officer says a man shall not 
 receive work, that settled it right there, 
 .and we are opposed to any such clause. 
 "We are in favor of the other clause as 
 it reads, that the mine manager shall 
 have the direction of the men. We 
 favor that. We say the right to hire 
 and di.scharge is within , his province 
 and his only, but we do say that th^y 
 have no right to discriminate, and the 
 other clause certainly does give them 
 that right and places a premium on 
 discrimination. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The clauses mean the 
 same thing, except that one is explicit 
 and one is a little less explicit. Mr. 
 Wilson cannot deny that statement. 
 Now, to quote Mr. W^ilson a few min- 
 utes ago, there is nothing in the world 
 harder to prove or to disprove than 
 
 the claim that a mine manager in re- 
 fusing a man work is actuated by a 
 personal grudge. You can't prove it 
 and you can't disprove it, and yet that 
 is one of the things you wish to ex- 
 press in the agreement as a matter to 
 be investigated. If you investigate thit 
 matter you will never reach a conclu- 
 sion as to whether it is so or Is not so, 
 because you can't get at a man's mind 
 in any way. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I contend that 
 the statement made by Mr. Bent is cer- 
 tainly a reason why we should adopt 
 the former clause and not carry with It 
 this one under the proposed agreement. 
 He said there was absolutely no differ- 
 ence except that one was more explicit 
 than the other. We contend that the 
 clause under the present agreement 
 carrying with it the explanations "made 
 by the operators and the miners is Just 
 as explicit as that Is, and if there is 
 no difference I can't see why they 
 should object to it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The meaning of the two 
 is the same. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I would like to ask 
 what objection the operators can have 
 to inserting in the agreement a clause 
 which shall require that the mine man- 
 ager or the person who employs and 
 discharges the men shall not discrimi- 
 nate against an employe or an appli- 
 cant for employment because of per- 
 sonal prejudiice or because of the ap- 
 plicant's activity in the matters affect- 
 ing our organization. I believe the 
 committee will agree that we strike 
 out the part which requires the listing 
 of men and simply make it read after 
 paragraph F in the ninth line, "these 
 respects. The mine manager in exer- 
 cising this right shall not discriminate 
 against any employe or applicant for 
 employment because of personal preju- 
 dice or activity in matters affecting the 
 U. M. W. of A." Why do you object to 
 that? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Because that is the 
 very thing that you cannot either prove 
 or disprove, and yet it is the very thing 
 that would be alleged and made the 
 subject of investigation. And because 
 our inalienable right to hire whom we 
 please should not be modified by amy 
 agreement here. Besides insofar as 
 what you want us to do and what we 
 are pledged to do, is exactly what Mr. 
 Mitchell proposes. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Bent, you have 
 been very emphatic in your declaration 
 here that the mine owner will not dis- 
 criminate against any member of our 
 organization. Why do you fear inves- 
 tigation? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Because it is easy to 
 say that a mine manager is prejudiced, 
 and it is impossible to prove that he is 
 not. That is why for one reason. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Now, Mr. Chair- 
 man, I don't think that of the total 
 number of applications made for em- 
 ployment at the mines of Illinois there 
 is any considerable number of men 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 245 
 
 turned away. I do not believe you dis- 
 charge large numbers of men in Illi- 
 nois, but President Russell has found 
 during this year that in a great many 
 cases men have been refused employ- 
 ment at different mines; going to one 
 mine and asking for work and being 
 toM there was no work for them thert 
 and going to another mine and asking 
 for work and being given none there. 
 To such an extent has that been true 
 that it satisfied him that there was 
 some kind of an understanding among 
 the mine managers; whether there was 
 a black list kept or not, I don't know. 
 I hope not, and I will say I don't be- 
 lieve there is as far as the operators 
 are concerned. But you don't have 
 meetings and discuss these matters as 
 often as your mine managers do. They 
 meet in central points. During the time 
 they are together they no doubt discuss 
 the matters affecting their particular 
 mines and the men wboi work for them, 
 and without any jn-earrangemeiit or 
 possibly any Imtentlon there has eonie to 
 be a well defined understanding amiong 
 them that certain men are not good 
 employieis. Now O'ne mine manager may, 
 because of a personal prejudice against 
 some poor fellow, render it Impossible 
 for him' to get work in a number of 
 mines. He may say he is not a good 
 employe, and the man might be a good 
 workman and get along all right In 
 cne mine and not in another. That 
 will happen in any kind of a business. 
 1 might not be able to get along with 
 one mine manager and I might with 
 another. I have seen mine managers 
 T wouldn't work for. I have left mines 
 because I could not get along with the 
 mine manager, and I don't think I was 
 ever unreasonable in the manner of 
 performing my work. I can't see where 
 this will give rise to any trouble. Un- 
 der the agreement this year you pro- 
 vide that if you can .show a man was 
 unjustly discharged you compensate 
 him to the amount of five days' pay. 
 •Does that not hold out an inducement 
 for an investigation? "Would it not re- 
 strain your mine managers from turn- 
 ins the men away and making them the 
 subject of an investigation? The re- 
 straining infiuenoe of an addition to 
 the section of this character, will do 
 a great deal in my judgment to pre- 
 vent Investigations, to remove the 
 cause of investigations, because mine 
 managers will stop to think before they 
 refuse a man work who happens to 
 come along and ask for it. 
 
 MR. AGEE:— We claim that as long 
 as we pay the scale and buy union 
 labor that we should be permitted to 
 . select our own employes, and we don't 
 propose to have any rider tacked on to 
 this agreement that would cause us to 
 apologize and explain to Tom, Dick 
 and Harry who came along why we 
 don't want to employ them. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— Mr. Agee, this 
 proposed amendment does not abridge 
 this right. It simply does what every- 
 
 one of you gentlemen say you want 
 done. You say you don't want men 
 discriminated against by reason of 
 personal prejudice. Now this provides 
 that the pit boss shall not discharge 
 an employe or refuse a man work be- 
 cause of personal prejudice or because 
 of the applicant's or employe's activity 
 in matters affecting the U. M. W. of A. 
 MR. AGEE:— It simply leaves the 
 matter open for them to say why, ' anfl 
 then you have got to goi through the 
 form of explaining to every Tom, Dick 
 and Harry that comes along why you 
 don't want him. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- The miners of Ill- 
 inois are not asking something that !s 
 not generally conceded by operators in 
 other states. In Indiana men are em- 
 ployed in the order of their applica- 
 tion. A man goes to a mine in In- 
 diana and he asks for work. The check 
 weighman takes his name. As his 
 turn comes around he is put in the 
 mine. Now I want to say that I have 
 not approveid' of that plan beteause 
 of the danger of getting a class 
 of men wiho are not goo's work- 
 men. The officers In Illinois know very 
 well that I disagreed with them upon a 
 proposition of this kind, although the 
 officers of this state were not seeking 
 to establish the rule. They were seek- 
 ing to protect men against operators 
 •who had personal prejudice against 
 some men who wanted work, but I do 
 say that no man should be refused em- 
 ployment because a pit boss doesn't 
 like him. The only thing he should 
 be discharged for should be incompet- 
 ency and this organization ought not 
 to protect a man who is incompetent, 
 and I don't think it is trying to do so. 
 MR. BENT:— The operators are on 
 record Individually that they will not 
 stand for any discrimination whatever. 
 ' The association is on record collective- 
 ly that it will not. The commission has 
 shown that it has not stood for any- 
 thing of that kind In a single instance 
 which has been brought to its atten- 
 tion. Now the difference between the 
 discharging of a man and the hiring 
 of a man lies in this, that until a man 
 is hired no contract relation exists. It 
 is purely a voluntarily matter. After 
 a man Is hired he comes under the op- 
 eration of this contract, and our right 
 to discharge Is limited by the provis- 
 ions of the contract, to prevent any In- 
 justice from being done. Tou cannot 
 invoke a contract until a contract re- 
 lation exists. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It seems to me that 
 this controversy on this matter has 
 gone about far enough. Mr. Bent says 
 that the operators individually are up- 
 on record as saying that they will not 
 discriminate against a miner for the 
 causes that the miners have set forth 
 here. I wish to say, as Mr. Morris has 
 Faid, were the operators always pres- 
 ent when these matters arose there 
 would be no cause for any of the con; 
 tention that has been raised this year 
 
246 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 9. 
 
 upon this clause of our agreement. I 
 believe that this clause is only a year 
 old. I believe that the ojjerators last 
 year are upon record as asking us in 
 a sort of a joltins manner to insert 
 this clause so that they might feel 
 that they had control of their property, 
 or something to that effect. It is in 
 the record now. I remember reading 
 It the other day. I want to say that it 
 has not ended as a joke with the Un- 
 ited Mine. Workers in Illinois. We have 
 had a, great amount of trouble over 
 this clause last year, and the fact that 
 the operators are here and going up- 
 on record today does not assist us in 
 that trouble, I believe what President 
 Mitchell has introduced is fair, and I 
 believe that the operators should adopt 
 it, and I want to say here and now 
 that so far as I am individually con- 
 cerned, this committee of ours may 
 take what action they see fit; they 
 may say to me that I must vote for 
 last year's clause in that agreement 
 and I will do it, but I want to say to 
 you that I will oppose it with all my 
 strength before the miners' convention 
 in the state of Illinois. I am sorry and 
 shall be sorry if anything of this kind 
 will prevent us from reaching an agree- 
 ment, but I am honest in this matter. 
 I have confronted it in many cases as 
 1 stated this morning, that have never 
 reached the commissioner nor the ear 
 of the operators, and under my Instruc- 
 tions they have allowed these men to 
 go from the mines because the agree- 
 ment says the right to hire shall in- 
 clude the right also to discharge. We 
 knew what the agreement was even in 
 the cases that were called to President 
 Mitchell's attention, we knew that we 
 were wrons in the position that we 
 were taking. I desire to say to you 
 here tbday that I knew myself that we 
 were wrong, but the matter had gone 
 to that extent that we believed we 
 were justified in taking some steps to 
 stop this matter of discrimination that 
 was going on throughout the state of 
 Illinois. When President Mitchell said 
 to us that we were wrong, that we must 
 abide by that agreement, we said to 
 him that we would do it, and we have 
 done it, we did it before, and only in 
 this particular case did we violate the 
 agreement in any manner. Now I my- 
 self at that time made up my mind that 
 there must be some modification, some 
 qualification of that agreement this 
 time that would give protection to these 
 men. I am here now and I have never 
 changed my mind, and I say to you 
 that while I would be sorry if we should 
 not reach an agreement because of 
 this matter, I cannot and never will 
 vote for lajst year's clause in our agree- 
 ment unless the miners' committee 
 here instruct me to do it, and then I 
 will go before the convention and the 
 convention must instruct me to vote 
 for it before I will do it. We might as 
 well be plain. I don't believe that there 
 is any necessity of piling up this record 
 
 to the extent of making it so large that 
 we shall have to hire horses and wag'- 
 ons or charter cars to carry it with 
 us, on this matter. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— What particu- 
 lar case did you have reference to that 
 was taken before President Russell? 
 
 MR. RUSSBL.L: — The particular case 
 was the case of Witt. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If you had so much 
 trouble with this matter last year with 
 the operators' association squarely on 
 your side about it, how is it that every 
 matter that you have brought to Mr. 
 Justi's attention, although we admit 
 that you had no contract rights In tlje 
 matter, how is it that all of those mat- 
 ters through his friendly intervention 
 were decided in your favor. If more 
 had gone there, would not they have 
 been handled in the same way? 
 
 MR. RUSSEIiL:— I have never said 
 they were decided in our favor. They 
 were not decided in our favor. But I 
 have said that men have secured em- 
 ployment after a decision was render- 
 ed against us, through the intercession 
 of Mr. Justi with the operator. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Isn't that as good? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— No, It is ntot as 
 good. There would be no reason for 
 the cases to arise if the agreement 
 was not there and 'the mine managers 
 take advantage of that agreement to 
 carry out their ill-fieeling and sridte 
 toward miners in Ithe state of Illinois. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Can you prove whether 
 It is spite or not in any given case? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL: — I Aan't know that 
 we can. I have simply said to you 
 here, let the burden of proiof rest with 
 us. If we can't prove it, thtn w^e 
 have no case. You have refused to do 
 that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Let me caJl at- 
 tention to cases that I have in mind 
 myself. Mr. Bent knows of the cir- 
 cumstances up in Illinois where m&n 
 are compelled and have been for years 
 toi gro four or five miles to work, men 
 w^ho live in one to^^^n, who own homes 
 there, or who have had their homes 
 there for the past fifteen years, who 
 came and built up the town, who con 
 tributed to the w^ealth 'of the company, 
 and they are compelled to go daily 
 four or five miles 'to work and have 
 made application after application for 
 employment in Spring Valley mines, 
 and have been refused, and even now 
 'if they were given a job they Would 
 be given a place where they could not 
 earn a living. Now you know those 
 cases yourself. I saw 600 men driven 
 'out of one town one after anoither, 
 not because they were not good co.al 
 miners, because they were the very 
 -best, their places filled with inexperi- 
 enced men from foreign countries, and 
 those men were driven out of there 
 simply because they didn't worship God 
 in the same church the superintendent 
 did. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That illusitrates the 
 very thing I said, that you cannot tell 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 9. 
 
 247 
 
 what they were refused employment 
 for. I know^ the year they w^ere dis- 
 charged the store was looted ajid there 
 was rioting there and the presence of 
 state .troops, and wheither they were 
 discharged on account of rioting or re- 
 ligion you never can prove. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I know this, and 
 it is well known to leverybody, thaJt the 
 rioting was done by men who were 
 sent down there. It was the foreign 
 speaking people who did the rioting. I 
 saw them do it myself. The miners of 
 the town and the citizens saw them 
 d'oing it. The men' who were driven 
 away were the men who did not do 
 the rioting. It was the English speak- 
 ing people who were driven away. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Can you, except in rare 
 instances, prove why a mine manager 
 does or does not do a. certain thing? 
 The control of 'the mine manager rests 
 in the operator, and when the operator 
 is on record and our organization is on 
 record, we can handle these mine man- 
 agers through our machinery a great 
 deal better than through the joint 
 machinery, and it is the only way we 
 are willing to handle, them, but we are 
 willing to handle them there. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I would like to ask 
 if that particular operator that Presi- 
 dent Mitchell referred to is upon 
 record? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— H6 is not. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Do you deny the ability 
 of the associaJtion to handle any one 
 operator if we go on record what we 
 are going to do? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to ask you 
 again why is It that, leaving the re- 
 ligious part of this matter out, that 
 the condition that Mr. Mit-chell speaks 
 of pertaiins in almost every district in 
 the sitate of Illinois today, that men are 
 driving' to mines four or five or six 
 miles to work, when there are mines 
 righ't by their doors that they are un- 
 able to secure employment in. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Russell, we don't 
 believe that condition does exist 
 throughout the state of Illinois in the 
 diiferent districts, and if it does' we 
 invite attention to the fact. We Invite 
 you to oome to our individual opera- 
 tors and to come to our commission, 
 and invite you to oome to our executive 
 committee with anything of that kind. 
 We want justice and we don't want a 
 discrimination, but we want our unim- 
 paired right to hire whom we please. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That's all we're 
 asking — ^^is justice. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We agree absolutely as 
 to what we want, but we object to 
 - the machinery. 
 
 MR. J. B. W^ILSON:— I want to ask 
 Mr. Bent if we can prove tha:t the dis- 
 position on the part of the operator to 
 keep these men out is purely on per- 
 sonal grounds or from the fa.ct that 
 the men are taking an active part in 
 this organization, if that constitutes 
 the sole reason why they keep them 
 out, is the operators' association will- 
 
 ing 'to say to those operators that they 
 shall give those men employment? 
 
 MR. BENT:— We invite evidence of 
 that kind to' the individual operator; 
 we invite evidence of that kind to our 
 commissioner; we! invite evidence of 
 that kind to our executive committee, 
 and we want to do justice. We don't 
 favor discrimination but we want the 
 unimpaired right to hire whom, we 
 please. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think ithe question 
 pught to be answered directly. 
 
 MR. BENT: — How can I answer it 
 any more explicitly and affirm the right 
 to hire whoin we please and say we 
 don't propose to have any discrimina- 
 tion. In other words, we won't con- 
 tract to hire a man we don't want 
 who is ntot alt present in our employ. 
 We will contract not 'to discharge Mm 
 except for cause ; we will not contract to 
 give employm-ent except voluntarily; 
 but we say, without any contract about 
 it, thiat wte don't want any discrimina- 
 tion, and our organlzationi with all its 
 power will join yours to try and pre- 
 vent It. I ' 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Bent has on 
 more 'than one occasion drawn atten- 
 tion to the fact that you have no in- 
 dividual contract .with our members, 
 that you conltract with our oirganizar 
 tion. W^e contract *o mine coal and do 
 other work for a certain ajnount. We 
 agree that our loirganizaJtion will be 
 responsible for that work, for keep- 
 ing this contract invioatale. In our 
 contract we accord your members ab- 
 solute right to hire and discharge men, 
 but we ask you to maJce this one quali- 
 ficaJtion; that you shall not refuse to 
 hire, or that yioiu shall ntJt discharge 
 because of persional prejudice or ' be- 
 cause of our members' activity in our 
 organization. Now that is aJl we ask, 
 that those words mean exactly what 
 they say and are not put there as a 
 subterfuge. They are not put there for 
 the purpose of creating new trouble, 
 but they will do much to avoid trouble 
 both for you and for us. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But, Mr. MStcbell, if 
 any man in this state is short of men 
 you do not contract to furnish his mine 
 w'lth the men he requires; you do not 
 undertake to send a single man there 
 who doesn't want to go there and ap- 
 ply for work. If Mr. Agee Js shont of 
 men you do not agree to furnish any 
 men in his mine tO' supply his needs, 
 but you do ask that if any of those 
 men want 'to leave the Spaulding mine 
 and work for !Mr. Agee that he shall 
 take them. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You provide in 
 your contract for penalties and punish- 
 ment for violation of contract onr the 
 part of any of our members. We as- 
 sume responslbili'ty for the adts of 
 each of our Individual members. There 
 is not one punishment or penalty pro- 
 vided in that contract for vlolaJtions 
 of it on the part of the companies 
 except paying a man five days' pay ff 
 
248 
 
 APTBRNOON Session, March 9. 
 
 he happens to be unjus'tly discharg-ed. 
 You don't put one thing: in your con- 
 tract to restrain your pit boss, and you 
 ought to be wining to insert that clause. 
 I want to say myself that I was quite 
 strongly of the opinion tha)t we ought 
 to put In the contract that whenever 
 It was possible to hire men in the order 
 of their applicatliom; it ought to be 
 done. President Russell thinks so, but 
 believing this was a way out of it, he 
 was willing to waive position and sim- 
 ply have It as our last statement. 
 
 MR. BENT:— This whole debate has 
 been most remarkable for ithe sincer- 
 ity of discussion and the fact that we 
 are all after exadtly the same end. Mr. 
 Mi'tohell's plan is Ithe plan we propose 
 to pursue but In our own way. The 
 mine manager is the operator's person- 
 al reiM-esentative and we are responsi- 
 ble for Ihis conduct and we are also 
 responsible for violations of this con- 
 tract and we propose to carry this 
 contract out. Mr. Jeremiah this morn- 
 ing In committee has shown a penalty 
 that was imposed on account of the 
 wrong action of a mine manager — 
 namely, his removal, and making mine 
 manager of ithe man he refused to re- 
 Instate. We have common sense, gen- 
 tlemen, and we desire peace, and we 
 desire justice, and we are opposed to 
 discrimination, and in Our own way, 
 ndt Impairing our right to hire whom 
 we please, we will see that our mine 
 managers carry looit 'the letter and spirit 
 of this contract or set olther mine 
 managers. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I want to say thalt the ixjsition taken 
 by Mr. Bent is, I think, an unfair post 
 tion. He prescribes a punishment for 
 our miners. If they ask for work and 
 are refused the org-anizatlon has got 
 to lee them go. If, under th« state- 
 ment made by Mr. Bent the mine man- 
 ager discriminates, all he Stands in awe 
 of is the fact 'that he may be investi- 
 gated. We contend that that is noit a 
 fair proposition. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We admit a man has 
 the right to appeal after he has en- 
 tered our einploy on account of unjust 
 treatment or discharge but not before. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— How in the 
 name of God have we got any appeal 
 at all if the statement lof Mr. Bent 
 is carried out. He says the mine man- 
 ager is his servant and the entire 
 power to hire and discharge is vested 
 in that mine manager, and if he ab- 
 .solutely refuses employment of that 
 man, where is there any appeal coming 
 to him? He has absolutely none. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— The reason why T 
 a.sked Mr. Bent to repeat the statement 
 was to get it plainly In the record. 
 I agree with him. At the same time 
 I contend that 'they have no right to 
 object or find any fault with ony of 
 our members until they are employed 
 by that particular operator. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I will agree 
 with that construotlon. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — The great fear upon 
 the part of Mr. Bent seems to be, and 
 the conltention he makes is, that we 
 would not be able to prove what was in 
 the mind of an operator or a mine 
 manager. We will admit, Mr. Bent, 
 that we are not able to read the 
 thoughts and Intents of any man's 
 mind. But were we to adopt your pro- 
 posed paragraph that the operators 
 have brought here it would preclude 
 us the right to ask an operator the 
 reason why he refused a man employ- 
 ment. I admit, Ithe proposition there 
 brought forth, understand me. We 
 would have no right tio delve Into the 
 matter to see' why this man was re- 
 fused work. We have no right to ask 
 him why they refused him If we were 
 to adopt this. Now, Mr. Bent, while 
 we are not able possibly to prove the), 
 reason why a mine manager refuses a 
 man work, yet were that mine manager 
 to give the reason why he didn't give 
 that man work, we might be able to 
 prove to you why the grounds he took 
 were untenable. I will ask this ques- 
 tion, Mr. Bent : If a man were to oome 
 to your mine tomorrow and ask for 
 employment 'and you- were to say to 
 him: "No, I do not wish to hire you" 
 and were he to ask you, "Well, Mr. 
 Bent, what is the reason you refuse 
 me employment" and you were to say 
 to him: "Because you are a disturber, 
 a disturbing elemenit where you were 
 employed before." If that man were 
 able to prove to you that you w^re 
 misled in regard to himself, would you 
 be willing to give that man employ- 
 ment ? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I would 
 be willing to listen to everything that 
 could be said in his behalf, and if I 
 were convinced I would employ him, 
 but I would wish to be the sole judge 
 or reislgn my position. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If you were to adopt 
 what you suggest we would not have a 
 right to try and prove to you even that 
 the reasons given were wrong. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We have invited you to 
 do that, to go to the operator every 
 time. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then why not Include 
 It In the agreement. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Because we are not 
 willing to agree to do anything. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Oh, I am well aware 
 that you are not willing to agree to 
 anything. We are learning that all 
 the way through ithis convention. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— We have narrowed 
 down to one question, which is the 
 sole one which needs to be discussed. 
 Mr. Mitcihell for whose judgment I 
 have a very great respect, thinks that 
 ■It would tend to reduce the trouble 
 Within the state arising out of this 
 maltter of the employment of the men. 
 The operator on the other hand, feels 
 perfectly sure that his view is erron- 
 eous and that it would tend to add to 
 the already large number of troubles 
 that we have. In regard to Mr. Morris' 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 249 
 
 statement that they have no right to 
 brtng forward these questions, I want 
 to suggest that I , have niever yet seen 
 the pit oommitte© man who desired 
 to aocomplish the same result and who 
 was estopped from doing it by the' con- 
 ditions of the contract, who was not 
 able to place it on the ground of jus- 
 tdoei and good fellowehap ooitslde of 
 that. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Who was it raised 
 the question of sending a circular out? 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— I made the statement 
 that I thought it was quite possible 
 to arrange with itbe operator's associ- 
 ation to send out a letter to their var- 
 ious miembers explaining the under- 
 standing that was reached here outside 
 of the comtract which they would be 
 expected to comply with. Am I right 
 in making that statement on behalf 
 of the operators? 
 
 (Mr. Cutts' quesitlon was answered in 
 the affirmative by several gentlemen 
 in 'the room.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— "Well, I would 
 like to get some more information as 
 to that. Would a copy of your circular 
 letter sfent out defining the exacit at- 
 titude of the coal operators' association 
 on the subject of eanployment or dis- 
 mlissal of men be placed in the hands 
 of the president of this district with 
 the understanding that the circular let- 
 teir be regarded as the 'basis o* his dis- 
 charging and employing men. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— That would be Mr. 
 Mitchell, omly an expression of the way 
 In which the operators believe the mat- 
 ter should be handled, but no* a con- 
 tract oondHtion. I want to reiterate if 
 It please you agan that the apparent 
 poiinJt of dlifference between us in this 
 miatter is that your contention is thalt 
 it would renxove the trouble. We 
 think on behalf of the operators itlhat lit 
 wotild appreciably increase the troubles 
 under which we now labor. That, in 
 my opinion, is the kernel of the whole 
 thing. "~ 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 operators have laiic^ great stress upon 
 the point of employing none buit mem- 
 bers of our organization. Our organd- 
 zatian has toi take in those you seek 
 to lemployt Tou hold us under agree- 
 ment toi be responsible for those men 
 ■whom, you see fit to employ, and as a 
 result of your employing them wie 
 have tO' miake proviisions by which they 
 can become members of our organi- 
 zaltion. Then you come under this 
 provision that we must hold in re- 
 straint the men whom you see fit to 
 employ, and we shall have no- voice in 
 it. In other words, we have noi vodoe 
 in the selection of men who become 
 members of our organization, but 
 we must hold Ithem in restraint. Now, 
 if a contract is entereid intoi between 
 the two organizations by which one 
 must bold the oither to it, I believe 
 thaJt the organization that is respon- 
 sible for its miembers ought to- have 
 something to say as tO' who shall be its 
 
 members. Today you can go tO' any 
 state in the Union and bring In a class 
 of men and employ theatn. Our organi- 
 zatiion must 'taJce them in regardless of 
 their character or anything. We have 
 got tOi hold these men in restraint. 
 While at the same time there miffht 
 be members of our organization who 
 have lived in that community, whose 
 character is beyond reproach, and 
 whose ab'ility as practical miners is 
 not questioned and tha;t man has to 
 live. Now, if our organization musit 
 be responsible for these people, I be- 
 lieve tha/t we should have something 
 to say as to' who should be th^ mem- 
 bers of It. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— It seems to me that a 
 good deal of trouble arises out of the 
 fact that the operator has very ilttle 
 to say as to whom the organizatiion 
 shall take in. The organization takes 
 the position that it will take anyone 
 In that it pleases to take in aMd it 
 takes in many that the ( inc-lals of the 
 organization do not approve of. The 
 statement has been made repeatedly 
 by officials of your organization that 
 they do not ask wheither a man is 
 honest, sober, or industrious. A man 
 comes along and 'they take him into 
 the organization. We have nothing 
 toi say about it. Now, if your organi- 
 zation would qualify the character of 
 the men who were to be admitted I do 
 not think there would be any quesition 
 at all OS to the adoption of a clause 
 that, in letter if not in spirit, would 
 cover what you demand. But whalt 
 we object to, Mr. Chairman, is the 
 fact that the organization, ujtifortun- 
 ately, has been made the refuge of 
 men wbo are a positive detriment to 
 your organization, and an embarrass- 
 ment tO' the men for whom they work: 
 
 Now, wbiile I am on my feet, Mr. 
 Chairman, I want to say that In my 
 opinion the suggestion of Mr. Cutlts 
 win do more to carry out what we 
 desire than anything you can put in 
 an agreement, for the simple reason 
 that it will bring directly to the at- 
 tention' 'Of levery operator and of every 
 mine manager the exact sentiments 
 of the organization on this subject. 
 It will give an expression 'that you 
 could not possibly give in any agree- 
 ment that you could draw up. It 
 would be the utterance of the organi- 
 zation In the most concise and the 
 most explicit terms, and it cO'Uld not 
 possibly escape the operators or the 
 mine managers. If it were simply em- 
 bodied in the agreement there might 
 be a question as to wnat the meaning 
 is and particularly in View of 'the gen- 
 eral discussion that has taken place, 
 but if a letter goes forward, as pro- 
 pO'Sed by Mr. Ctitts from the organi- 
 zation, stating what the organization 
 believes what should be dO'Ue in this 
 matter it will cO'Ver the case. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do yon use as much 
 care in examining an applicant for 
 membership In the operators' associa- 
 tion as you say we ought to. 
 
250 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 9. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I don't know that two 
 WTOmgs will make a rierht, but aJt the 
 same itlme I want tO' say this, that 
 care is exercised, and that the organi- 
 zation stands ready and has made a 
 'iravisiion in Its constitu'tion that when 
 an operator fails to carry' out an agree- 
 ment, he will be expelled. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That ;is not the ques- 
 tion. Have they got to be Sunday 
 school teachers before you admit them:' 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— No. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Have you ever refused 
 an applicant membership in your aa- 
 sooiation whO' tendered his initiation 
 fee? 
 
 'MR. BBNT;— Yes, sir, onoe. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— More than once. But, 
 ivir. Chairman, don't let us misunder- 
 stand each other in regard lO this mat- 
 ter. I don't pretend to say that your 
 organization should turn in and make 
 a clos^ investigation into the character 
 of every man who applies for admis- 
 sion, but I do mean to fay unis that 
 wlien it becomes known that a man 
 is simply using your organization as 
 a. refuge and refledts upon the char 
 actier of your organization, he ought 
 to be dealt with just exactly as the 
 operators' association would deal with 
 an ol)erator who is dishonest. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say now 
 that we can cite more than one case 
 durting" the last year, and more than 
 a dozen cases where the operators' 
 associaition prevented us from doing 
 jUBit exac'tly what you say now we 
 -ought to do, and you know it. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I hope the gentleman 
 will simply strike out the last remark, 
 ■fhat I know it, because I don't. I am 
 absolutely honesit about that. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't believe that I 
 myseJf could have said w^hat I wanted 
 said half as well as Mr. Justi said it. 
 I don't think I could. He has certainly 
 struck somiBthlng that , has bothered 
 me wonderfully ever since last state 
 convention. If I remember right, his 
 statement was something to this effect, 
 that wie would take any kind of a man 
 into our organization regardless of 
 what he was, what his character might 
 be, Ms qualificatons or anything of the 
 kind. Now, Mr. Justi don't you know 
 it to be a fact that we don't pick the 
 members, or the people who^'are to be- 
 come members of our organization, 
 but you yourselves do lit. i know that 
 I have heard operators get up here 
 many times and especially Mr. Ber 
 and I will say Mr. Moorshead, not once' 
 but twice Eind more times, say that 
 they ' have an agreement with us to 
 1 hSire nolthing but union men. If you 
 have, gentlemen, I wish you Would live 
 up to it. I don't know whether you 
 peO'Ple know it or not, but I do know 
 that you hire any man 'that comes 
 along regardless of whether he ever 
 saw a coal mine or not, and we have 
 got to go and organize these men to 
 protect ourselves. You tell us who 
 Shall be the members of our organiza- 
 tion by hiring them and placing them 
 
 down in your mines, and we have got 
 toi take them into our organizaltion for 
 self protection or work with scab men, 
 and therefore they ruin our organiza- 
 tion and undermine it. I am surprised 
 thalt Mr. Justi is casting a reflection 
 on our organi2sati'0n for the class of 
 people who compose it. I certainly 
 am. And now^ he has stated that tbe 
 operators will be willing and glad' to 
 co-operate with us if we would specify 
 siome quaHiflcation that a man must 
 possess before he can become a mem- 
 ber oif our organization. "We have 
 specified them. Mr. Jus'tl. We did last 
 year, and you people kicked strenu- 
 ously against it. We said a man should 
 be a procitical coal miner before he 
 went to the face, and who raised a howl 
 buit you people? And if we do that 
 this year, who will raise a howl but 
 the operators. When we tried to make 
 a standard for the men to co'me up to,. 
 you petople were the first to holler. 
 You hire everybody that comes around 
 regardless of their qualificaltions and 
 then tell us to go and organize them. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — When an operator em- 
 ploys a man, he employs him because 
 he can d)o the work that is necessary. 
 Willie it is true that he dtoes not in- 
 quire closely In'to the character of the 
 man, when he knows the cJiaj-acter of 
 the man is bad, he certainly does^ not 
 take him in because he knows he is 
 going to give him trouble. Now, this 
 is o^nly a business proposition, Mr. 
 Chairman, au'd nothing else. It is not 
 anything else than a bus^iness proposi- 
 tion. The operator wants as a matter 
 of course an average capable man; he 
 wants a man whose habits of life are 
 as steady as it is possible to have. 
 Now, as a matter of fact, so' far as the 
 coal operaJtors' association or the coal 
 oiperators individually dictating ex- 
 actly who shall be talten Into your 
 organization, I am sure that Mr. Perry 
 will modify his statement as to that. 
 The operator has comparaJtlvely little 
 to say as to who you shall receive. The 
 ooaj operator takes l man who' has 
 the card oi /our association as a rule 
 There are times of course when a mine 
 may be embarrassed because It hasn't 
 a sufficient number of men. Men come 
 along and apply. The owners can't 
 close down their mines simply because 
 they haven't a sufficient number of 
 men. Here are a nuni'ber of men who 
 apply for work, and they simply, say, 
 "We will put these men to work, put 
 them in your organization." But the 
 presumption is when those men are 
 employed that they are both capable 
 and that their habits of life are such 
 that they can perform their duties. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You stated thajt the 
 operators hired men whom they knew 
 could do their work. Since coming- 
 here a mine manager who happened to 
 be in Peoria a day or two told me 
 that he was now having a great deal 
 of trouble in his mine and it was all 
 caused on account of the fact that the 
 men who were working in that mine 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 251 
 
 did not know how to dlgr coal. Every 
 one of ithose men whom he alluded to 
 was hired by ihim wlthoiut any hln- 
 dance whatever on the part of the pit 
 ciommltltee or anybody else. He ad- 
 mitted to me in one particular case 
 where a so-called miner had been em- 
 ployed by him and he was asked by 
 the pit comml'tte'e if this man was a 
 competent man. He said, "I don't 
 know. Tou had better g'o in a-nd see." 
 They went to the room wherie the man 
 was working and found that there were 
 rocks han'gting all around the place so 
 that )the man was liable to be killed 
 any moment, and h© knew noUhlng 
 whatever of his duties nor the manner 
 in which the place should be propped 
 in order to save himself or the place, 
 and whten the committee reported that 
 to the mine manager, he would not 
 , dischaxge' the man, but told the com- 
 mittee to do it. That is a No. 2 mine at 
 South Wilmington, and if you want to 
 go there we will see that some one goes 
 with lyou and shows you that what 
 we say Is the fact. They employ men 
 whether they can do the work or not. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It is not the intten- 
 tion of this organization to take in 
 every Tom, Dick and Harry into <mr 
 organization as has been said here up- 
 on the floor. Last year we inserted a 
 clause in our consititution providing for 
 a high initiation fee for men other than 
 miners. The operators came in and 
 kicked, ^nd one of the hardest fights 
 that we had last year was upon the 
 consti!tuition of the United Mine Work- 
 ers, upon this Very matter. Our object 
 was to put men in the mine who could 
 mine coal. It is just as mUqh an ob- 
 ject to the United Mine Workers as 
 It is to the operators. Wei fought over 
 that quesition last year and finally we 
 gave it up. But this year the operators 
 come' in again and are malcing ilt 
 stronger today than they did last year 
 in their proposed agreement. I wish 
 to read this 8th clause of the opera- 
 tors' proposed agreement: 
 
 "2Sth. The operators shall comply 
 with the state law in regard to the 
 employing of miners and mine laborers, 
 but under no circumstances shall an 
 Initiation fee in excess of five dollars be 
 charged for, or under no circum- 
 stances shall an initiation fee be im- 
 posed as to the employment of men 
 for whom working places are furnished; 
 nor shall the United Minie Workers of 
 America, Dis.trict No. 12, alttempt to 
 judge as to the qualification of any 
 man seeking employment, as this mat- 
 ter is entirely covered by the state 
 law." 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Jusiti could not 
 have read that. 
 
 MR. J. D. WILSON:— What is before 
 the house? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The matter before the 
 house is your motion to adopt para- 
 graph F of the 13tlh clause of the pres- 
 ent agreement. 
 
 MR. J. D. WILSON:— Do I under- 
 
 stand that T am precluded from mak- 
 ing an amendment to my own motion? 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— You can amend 
 it if you want to. 
 
 MR. J. D. WILSON:— I would like to 
 offer as an amendment the following: 
 "It however any employe shall be sus- 
 pended or discharged by the company 
 or any applicant shall be refused work, 
 ^ and It is claimed that an injustice has 
 been done him, an investigation to be 
 conducted by the parties" etc. That 
 carries with it the entire clause. That 
 is merely an amendment to the clause. 
 I will read the clause as amended, 
 (reading clause F as amended). Of 
 course that does not altogether har- 
 monize with the giving of the applicant 
 employment, but that could be put in 
 there in sufficient language so that we 
 could all understand it. What I want 
 to bring out is that if a man applies 
 for work and the operator refuses to 
 give him employment, that it shall be- 
 come a matter for investigation. If it 
 is true that the operator has sufficient 
 ground for refusing to give him work, 
 the clause applies. If on the other 
 hand we find he is entitled to work, 
 or the mine manager for a pergonal 
 reason refuses him work, then we 
 shall contend that under the sense of 
 this agreement he is certainly entitled 
 to employment. The company has no 
 • right to consider that opinion of the 
 mine manager is final. We desire that 
 an investigation shall be on the same 
 lines as the other. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. AGEE: — That is the same thing 
 you have been contending for all day. 
 That clause is inconsistent. It starts out 
 by sas^ng "the rights of an employ- 
 er to hire and discharge shall not be 
 abridged." And you go right on and 
 abridge it there, put a rider right on it. 
 
 MR. Jr B. WILSON:— That is where 
 our whole contention has been. You 
 contend that this carries with It the 
 right of your mine manager to dis- 
 criminate. If you are disposed to act 
 fairly, if the statements made by the 
 operators on this fioor are honestly 
 made, then the operator has nothing 
 to fear under this clause. If as you 
 say, as Mr. Justl says, they have not 
 only construed this clause to mean that 
 the miner shall not be .discriminated 
 against, but have used their Influence 
 toward gaining him employment, cer- 
 tainly the contention on the part of Mr. , 
 Agee that this is an abridgement of 
 their rights is ridiculous and inconsist- 
 ent. I cannot understand the position 
 of either. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is a large differ- 
 ence between an agreement and a pur- 
 pose. There is a large difference be- 
 tween belief and knowledge. We may 
 believe that a man is unfit to employ 
 and not have absolute knowledge of the 
 fact. We may have a purpose not to 
 discrimdnaJbe against a man without 
 agreeing that we will not dO' so. Now 
 there is the whole thing in a nutshell. 
 Underlying this whole thing is the in- 
 
252 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 alienable rig'ht of the e-mployer to take 
 whom he pleases, and the contract does 
 not beg'in to be operative un'til he has 
 taken him. Our purpose Is not to dis- 
 crlmlnaJte, but we do not admit that 
 this contract is operative until a man 
 has entered our employ. From the time 
 that he has entered our employ the pro- 
 visions of the contract govern his rela- 
 tions with us. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— We have discussed this 
 matter very fully, and I would Ike to 
 renew my motion of thds forenoon that 
 a committee composed of- Preslident 
 Russell and President Mitchell on the 
 part of the m!iners, and Mr. Cutts and 
 Mr. Bent on the part of the operators, 
 be appointed to draft a resolution cov- 
 erilng paragraphs F and D, section 13. 
 (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman, I rise 
 to a question of personal privilege. I 
 do not want to speak directly on the 
 motion, but there was a remark made 
 by Mr. Bent In which I want to coin- 
 cide. I want to agree with him when he 
 said there was a wide difference be- 
 tween belief and knowledge. Thte mine 
 manager might believe a man was not 
 a fit man to be employed, but he might 
 not know it. All we ask Is the prlvlle'ge 
 of investigating the belief of that mine 
 manager and seeing whether it is well 
 taken or not. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Tou are at liberty, 
 Mr. Perry, to attack that belief with 
 any evidence that you can present, but 
 if you fall to change that beilief, the 
 operator's right remains. It is not a 
 contract question. It is not a question 
 of knowledge, but a question of belief. 
 Convince him, and the man is .em- 
 ployed. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then we want an 
 agreement that he Will hire him. 
 
 The secretary read the 19th clause of 
 the present sitate agreement. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I want to say 
 that this also has been susceptible of 
 numerous constructions during the past 
 year. I had occasion to visit a oertafin 
 mine in this StaJte — I will name it — 
 down at Roanoke; the company con- 
 tended that ithey wanted to put in a 
 new boiler. They did so, biit they left 
 the foundation work, and a whole lot 
 of other little matters necessary to the 
 completion of that boiler plant just 
 drag along. As a consequence of that 
 they employed men. as they termed, 
 "In their judgment best suited to, and 
 acquainted with the work." As the re- 
 sult of that they worked them part of 
 the day and the rest of the time worked 
 them on the tipple, and they were not 
 members of our organization. Mr. Per- 
 ry and myself were down there and 
 they quoted this clause to us. They 
 contended that this clause gave them 
 the right, as it was extensive repairs 
 tO' the plant, and they brought it in 
 under this head. We contended that if 
 that was the case it was the intention 
 of this clause for the operaJtor to prO'- 
 oeed with that work, and not for the 
 purpose of dragging on for an indefi- 
 
 nite period with a certain amount of 
 men, and having them perform other 
 top labor. Now the men I am speak- 
 ing of not only fed mules, loaded box- 
 cars, done ordinary top work, wheeled a 
 shovelful of dirt occasionally, but they 
 were doing ordinary top work and re- 
 ceiving $1.50 a day, and the operator 
 absolutely refused to recognize their 
 right to belong to our organization. 
 When we made the contention that 
 they should belong, he emphatically 
 told us he would dispense with his 
 services rather than recognize that. 
 His construction work was completed. 
 Now, if that is the construction the op- 
 erators wish to pult on the whole 
 clause, I wish to say I am as mucih op- 
 posed to that as I am the 13th clause. 
 
 MR, BENT: — Did nOt the mine have 
 men who were members of your organ- 
 ization regularly employed at work 
 around the tipple? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— They had, but not 
 suflicient to perform the duties neces- 
 sary, and therefore they employed this 
 party. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Were there vacancies 
 which they couldn't fill? 
 
 MR. WILSON: — That would not cover 
 the time of two months, which was the 
 time the party was employed. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I think the construe- - 
 tion of the operators in this matter is 
 that if the company was able to prop- 
 erly fill the vacancies on its top with 
 members of your organization, that the 
 company ought to do so, and could not 
 hire these men under that paragraph. 
 If there was a temporary vacancy in 
 the force which they could not fill, this 
 would dome under the emergency 
 clause. T don't think there is any ques- 
 tion about that. 
 
 MR. W^ILSON:— W^hen we proposed 
 to Mr. Duggan that the man become a 
 member of our organization, the com- 
 pany had employed him, and he was 
 at that time doinsr the top work. We 
 contended he would not be more com- 
 petent than what , he was previous to 
 the time, and we said if he intended 
 to have him work on the top of that 
 nline that he could not withhold him 
 from becoming a member of our organ- 
 ization for the sake of reducing his 
 wages thirty cents a day. But we 
 would have him a member of our or- 
 ganization. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We don't claim the 
 right to have men on trial the way the 
 gentleman speaks of, in order to secure 
 the work at a lower basis of wages. 
 We claim the intent of this thing is 
 that men taken honestly for construc- 
 tion work shall not be used for the op- 
 eration of a mine 'except temporarily, 
 and until men can be employed who 
 are members of your organization for 
 those positions. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I am to understand 
 then, Mr. Bent, that the intent of this ■ 
 clause is, to say that if you desire tem- 
 porarily to employ a man, that you 
 have a right to do so, and you can 
 pick them up from where you please. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 253 
 
 but it is not the int'ent of the operators 
 tt> say they will maintain a certain 
 class of work and construe it to mean 
 rtpairs tto the! plant for the sake of low- 
 ering the scale. Your association, in 
 other words, is opposed to that. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Yes, sir, absolutely. I 
 move you, as a substitute for the 19th 
 clause of the present contract, the 20th 
 clause of the operators' scale. It is 
 precisely the same, except thaJt it be- 
 gins as follows: "The sinking of 
 shafts, erection of head frames, build- 
 ings, scales, machinery, railroad 
 switches, etc." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Has the com- 
 mittee thaJt was to report on the day- 
 wage scale reporited yet? 
 
 THE SECRETARY: — The outside 
 day-wage scale has been adopted, the 
 14th clause of the present agreement. 
 
 MR. J. B. "WILSON:— I move as an 
 amendment the striking out of the, first 
 four words of the proposed 2()th clause, 
 "The slinking of shafts." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— As I under- 
 stand here, the right has been conceded 
 in this committee here to amend a sub- 
 stitute. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't remember of 
 any prooeViure whene we have given 
 the right to amend a substltutei. We 
 have, I believe,' given a right to sub- 
 stitute for a whole. If you desire to 
 get that in, suppose you offer a substi- 
 tute for tihe whole matter. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON :-^The amend- 
 ment is withdrawn. 
 
 MR. RYAN (The chair temporarily 
 occupied by Mr. Perry): I desire to 
 offer as a substitute for everything 
 pending In regard to this 19th clause, 
 the following. (I read troia the, orig- 
 inal 19th clause in the present agree- 
 menit): 
 
 "The erection of head frames, build- 
 ings, scales, machinery, railroad 
 switches, etc., necessary for the com- 
 pletion of a plant to hoist coal, all be- 
 ing in the nature of construction work 
 are to be excluded from the jurisdic- 
 tion of the United Mine Workers of 
 America, the employes thereon to be 
 excluded from above when employed on 
 such work only." 
 
 I desire to offer the paragraph as I 
 read it for the whole, and leave the 
 resit of it just as It is, "Extensive re- 
 pairs to or rebuilding the same class of 
 work shall also be included in the same 
 exception." (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Chairman, I make 
 that amendment to this clause for the 
 purpose of preventing in the coming 
 year a grealt deal of trouble thait we 
 have had in the past, and to be brief, 
 it was fully covered an the statement 
 made by Mr. Peirry a few moments 
 ago. We have met that on several oc- 
 casions. We are perfectly satlsfled, as 
 I understand, to have tha)t class of 
 labor excepted when employed at that 
 class of work only. We contend the) 
 operators have no right under the 
 agreement, and working as we are 
 working Jointly, to bring men to a 
 
 plant and puit them to work half a day 
 on construction work, and half a day 
 shoveling in a box car or some other 
 work around the mine. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If while they are doing 
 this extensive repair work they are 
 called to the other work on account 
 of some temporary lack there, you want 
 them to get the wages while they are 
 there of the scale. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't know how the 
 rest of the miners present will feel 
 about it, but I take this position., that 
 if any man who follows that class of 
 labor such as building head frames, 
 scales, etc., desire to take advantage 
 of working at any other class of labor 
 around the mine, they should also. be- 
 come members of our organization. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Suppose it were just a 
 temporary need while they happened 
 to be there, not continuous aJt all, 
 then you want them to get the scale 
 while they are there, and if they are 
 to be there systematically, then to be- 
 come members of your organization? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That Is not the trouble, 
 Mr. Bent. These necessities have be- 
 come too apparent. There is a neces- 
 sity all the time. 
 
 MR. BENT:— You want them to get 
 the scale? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We certainly want 
 them to get the scale anyhow, and I 
 don't think we want to be technical on 
 that. But, Mr. Bent, there are men 
 who woirk for contractors who follow 
 that work almost the year round. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Several days aga- 
 in making a statement in the other 
 committee room I alluded to a con- 
 versation I had with Mr. Garrison con- 
 cerning powder. I said a large coal 
 operator had informed me that the 
 powder companies had divided the 
 territory and an operator couldn't buy 
 his powder except in certain mills. I 
 conveyed the impression to many that 
 I understood they could, buy but one 
 grade 'of powder. That was not my 
 Intention. I quoted him just as he 
 had spoken to me, but I understand, 
 now that the operator can buy any 
 grade of powder he wants to, although 
 there is an attempt being made to con- 
 fine their purchases to certain mills. I 
 want the record to show that I had 
 no intention of misrepresenting what 
 Mr. Garrison had said to me concerning- 
 powder. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Your motion 
 carries with it that those they employ 
 outside of our organizaJtion shall not 
 wofk at anything else than what has 
 been covered by your substitute; that 
 Is ithe way you made the motion. 
 Then, as I understand, Mr. Bent, it 
 would seem that if they had any de- 
 lays on that work the men might work 
 at some other work around the plant 
 provided they demanded their scale of 
 wages. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— No, sir, I didn't 
 consent to anything of the kind. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Wasn't that 
 your understanding? 
 
254 
 
 Afiernoon Session, March 9. 
 
 MR. BENTi— The genitleman lis spoil- 
 ing the record on which we were pre- 
 pared to' vote Aye. Mr. Ryan stated 
 that if they were called on as tem- 
 porary -workmen they sh^xuld get scale 
 ■wage.s, and we didn't want to be tech- 
 nical. Now, if what the genltleman 
 has said is left out we do not wajit 
 to be technical and will accept Mr. 
 Ryan's statement. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— The omly con- 
 tention we made on that was, as 
 sitated by Mr. Bent, that they had 
 taken advantage of that contention, 
 but we do contend in emergency the 
 right as long as 'the scale rate is paid. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— With the understanding 
 that it shall be a case of emergency. 
 We want it emphatic because they 
 make emergencies sometimes when 
 there are not any. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Let me see if I 
 have the^amendment right: "The erec- 
 tion of head frames, buildings, scales, 
 machinery, railroad switches, etc., 
 necessary for the completion of a plant 
 to hoist coal, all being in the nature 
 of construction work are to be ex- 
 cluded from the jurisdiction of the 
 United Mine Workers of America, and 
 the employes thereon are to be ex- 
 cludeid from the above when employed 
 on such work only." 
 
 MR. RYAN;- Instead of putting that 
 amendment in where you did, let It go 
 in at the la^t lof the clause. 
 
 (The secretary read the clause as 
 amended; the miners voted Aye, the 
 operators voted Aye, and it was car- 
 ried.) 
 
 The secreitary read the 20th clause 
 of the present agreement. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:- Mr. Chairman, 
 I move thalt the clause be stricken 
 from the agreement. (Seconded and 
 lost.) ! 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Now I move as a 
 substdtute the 21st clause in the opera- 
 tors' proposed agreemient. It merely 
 changes It from two days to one day. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I believe there is no 
 dther clause in the agreement that 
 caused such a widespread dissension 
 in the ranks of our members as the 
 20th clause, and I believe no one 
 fought, that clause any harder or more 
 persistently than your humbly servant 
 did last year. I did not fight it upon 
 the ground thaJt there should be noth- 
 ing in the agreement to this effect, 
 but because the one you adopted was 
 not far-reaching enough. I askeid that 
 so'methlng else be added that was not 
 added 'to it, and something that you 
 have all ignored this year again, and 
 I want to ■ say that whether you adopt 
 the substitute that you have offered 
 here or whether you still maintain the 
 preserit agreement it will be of no avail. 
 It is sumply a bone of contention caus- 
 ing trouble- and making work for your 
 lofflcers and ours the whole year round 
 without any good results. I don't care 
 whether you make it one day or ten 
 days, if you leave it as it is stated 
 
 aJt the present time, it Is of no benefit 
 to you and it Is detriment to the wel- 
 fare of all, because no man when he 
 stays home one, two 'Or three days, if 
 it is necessary to get his place back, 
 but will sav he has been home sick. 
 This is a fact. And last year I en- 
 deavored to get added to that clause 
 something to this effect: 
 
 "Where an employe absents himself 
 from his work for a period of more 
 than two days he shall be discharged; 
 except that in case of sickness or acci- 
 dent either to himself or to his family, 
 he shall have his same place of work 
 when he is able to resume, provided 
 he notify the employer of such S'ickness 
 or accident within two days from Its 
 date." 
 
 You have nothing In here requiring 
 a man to notify you when he gets sick, 
 and when he comes back at the end of 
 two days, one day or six days, he sim- 
 ply says he was sick, and how are 
 you gioing to prove that he wasn't sick. 
 You are noit a judge of whether I am 
 able to work or not. No man is a 
 better judge of that than I myself. It 
 is simply something that will make 
 trcuble for us all. 
 
 MR. MOORSHBAD:— I fully agree 
 w*ith Mr. Perry that it is aji extremelv 
 difficult thing toi know whether a man 
 if. sick or not. And I fully agree with 
 him that it has been or Iltitle avail. I 
 think I stated yesterday that men who 
 abserit themselves from their work will 
 flnii a way to cover their ground well, 
 whether It is from Indisposition or 
 anything else. I have known or at least 
 have heard of several cases where men 
 professed to be sick and certainly had 
 doctor's certificates to prove it, Tjut 
 they were on the streets and every- 
 thing indicated that they were quite 
 well men,. I am sure that it looiks to 
 me like a very hopeless case ' to try 
 and make a, man wiork if he doesn't 
 want to work. It Is like trying to 
 make a man hanest that doesn't 
 want to be. It is a very difficult sit- 
 uation to control, but somiethlng' ought 
 to be done to control men who habitu- 
 ally, monthly or semi-monthly, stay 
 away from their work. It is this very 
 thing tha;t causes us so much trooible 
 in securing drivers, cagers and others 
 to perform the work at the mines, and 
 it is that very thing that if we had 
 to pay time and a half to miners that 
 took the place of drivers, that we would 
 be penalized wrongfully, that very 
 thing. I hope if this clause Is not 
 satisfactory to the miners, and I'ti cer- 
 tainly has not worked out as was ex- 
 pected by the operators', that something 
 can b(r formed that will meet the case 
 and give us the relief that we ought 
 to have. I will say -^ery frankly that 
 I 'have tried very hard to weed out 
 some of our miners who habitually stay 
 away from their work, and we know 
 for no other reason than that dis- 
 position at certain periods, and who 
 sacrifice the earning power of their 
 
Afternoon Session, March 9. 
 
 255 
 
 fellow employes. But those gentlemen 
 are -,ery hard toi get at. They, will 
 stay away one day and come the next 
 and 'then stay away the next, and If 
 they want to, stay away two ar three 
 days. They get a certlflcate that they 
 are sick men. Now, the question Is 
 what shall we do. I think the miners 
 on the one side wanit to remedy the 
 condition and I am sure the operators 
 on the other side want to do Sit. If 
 anything better than this clause can 
 be found that is what the operatois 
 want. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to say 
 that I am willing and ready to vote 
 and work so far as I am concerned for 
 the clause that I proposed last year — 
 and for no other. If It is satisfactory 
 to both sides to adopt that I will do 
 my best to get it through. If they 
 are not satisfied to adopt it, then I 
 will do my best to defeat such a one 
 as y(ou have passed, or is already in 
 our agreement. 
 
 MR. LiUKBNS:— That is one com- 
 plaint we have to make about our 
 friend Perry. He wants things Ills way 
 absolutely always. He seems k> think 
 that his way is the best. Possibly it 
 is, but some of us have an Idea that our 
 way is all right oceasionally. When 
 •tMvo people of that kind gio up against 
 one another ihe result is generally dis- 
 agreement. Now, If I remember, cor- 
 rectly Mr. Perry and I were on a spec- 
 ial committee to take this matter up 
 last year. He had his peculiar way 
 of settling it, and I was open tc con- 
 viction, but nis way did not suit me 
 so that we did not agree. Now I think 
 there axe some seriotis objections to 
 Mr. Perry's way. I am not saying 
 that our way is absolutely correct, but 
 there are objections after a man has 
 been out dick a week or two weeks 
 to give him back his old place, because 
 in a good many cases that coald not 
 be done without working a hardship 
 on the man who had been filling his 
 place while he was sick. But I think 
 that the average operator would do 
 his utmost to give him back as good 
 a place as he ha^. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — ^If your mine manager 
 places a miner in a room tO' take the 
 place of a man off sick, doesn't he do 
 it with the understanding that he i? 
 simply doing it while the other is sick? 
 
 MR. LXJKENS:— You take It where 
 it is absolutely uncertain, in a great 
 many cases — 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— Isn't that the 
 rule? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I don't know. I 
 think thaJt the circumstances govern 
 the thing almost entirely. In some 
 cases it would and other cases it would 
 not. I think this matter should be re- 
 ferred to la special committee to see 
 if they cannot draft a clause thait will 
 be satisfactory to both sides. I do not 
 think that the operaJtors want any- 
 thing unreasonable. They simply want 
 to be protected so their mines won't be 
 tied up by men who are laying off 
 
 without good cause. And that wll! 
 probably be the best way out of it. 
 I move that this matter be referred to 
 a special committee of two from each 
 side, and I withdraw the other motion. 
 (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 (Messrs. Secor and Newsam "/ere se- 
 lectei by the operators and Messrs. 
 Perrv and Jackson by the miners.) 
 
 (The secretary read the 21jst clause 
 of the present agreement.) 
 
 MR. HBFTI:— I move its adoption. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I move to substitute 
 the 5:2nd clause in the oiperaltors' pro- 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 there are two or three if not several 
 machine men operators who are not 
 here, that we would like to have pres- 
 enlt. Cannot we defer iactl'on for a 
 minute or two? 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:- Yes, sir surely. 
 
 (The secretary read clause 24 of the 
 present agreement.) 
 
 MR. KNOWL.MAN:— I move Its adop- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I move the 
 adoption of the 24th clause of the 
 operators' proposed agreement, as a 
 sub.stitute. (Seconded.) ^ ■ 
 
 (The substitute was read.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Do you cut out all the 
 rest? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yes, cut out the 
 rest. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask 
 Mr. Lukens or Mr. Moorshead or any 
 of the operators If taking the inules 
 to and from is included in the para- 
 graph that reads as follows: "The 
 methods at present existing coveWng 
 the harnessing, unharnessing, feeding 
 and caring for the mules shall be con- 
 tinued at all shafts throughout the 
 scale year begrinning April 1, 1902." 
 Is it 'intended that the driivers, under 
 that clause, shall take the mules to 
 and from the mines w^here they take 
 them out on the surface at night? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It was the under- 
 standing that those points were re- 
 ferred to the sub-districts lasit year, 
 and that the matters were settled in 
 the sub-districts, and whatever agree- 
 ment was reached there shall conUnue. 
 That part of It was left out of. this 
 year's agreement because It might 
 create confusion and lead to misunder- 
 standings, the understanding being 
 that those matters were all adjusted 
 and settled. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— As I understand it, no 
 agreement reached last year, either In 
 the national, state or sub-distrdcts was 
 made to oontinue! longer than the first 
 of next Apri^. Do you know of any 
 that was made to go beyond that time? 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— We do not, but 
 if any arrangement we have worked 
 under has been satisfactory, why not 
 continue it? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Isn't that covered 
 under that last clause, "the methods 
 at present existing," etc. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The i>oint I wanlted to 
 
256 
 
 AFTERNOON SBSSION, MARCH 9. 
 
 bring out was whether you thought 
 there was any agreement made beyond 
 this year. 
 
 MH. JEREMIAH:— I thought It was 
 understood last year that where there 
 was a grievance; lit would be taken up 
 and adjusited. Mr. Bent was not pres- 
 ent when It was taken up the other 
 day. I found out dn his district It 
 was not adjusted and there was a 
 grievance there. He oonltends the 
 same conditions should prevail, and 
 that is why we are for the last year's 
 agreeme'nt. It should sro back to the 
 sub-distrilcts where they have a griev- 
 ance, rt says so in the last year's 
 agreement. We should like Mr. Bent 
 to be present. He contended the same 
 method as at present exists shiall pre- 
 vail. And it should be taken up at a 
 sub-district, and it was nolt taken up 
 there because he would not allow them 
 to be taken up as stated by Mr. Perry. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Will he do it this 
 year? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I believe he will. 
 The contention raised the- other day 
 was this, that mule feeders who work- 
 ed at the bottom of the shaft should 
 get $2.10, and no less than $2.10; where 
 the stable was on top that they 
 should be governed by the wages paid 
 on top at that mln«. But I undierstood 
 that Mr. Bent took the sitand thart the 
 same method should exist as existed 
 up there. It seems that If we refer a 
 case back to some sub-districts they 
 don't take the matters up and adjust 
 them. The reason for that is that the 
 operators will get in something there 
 which says it is an ordinary oondition, 
 and it has got to stand that way. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to ask for in- 
 formation if this clause was not laid 
 over pending the report of the commit- 
 tee appointed on inside day work. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Tes. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- That committee has 
 not yet reported, and I don't see that 
 we can discuss this matter pending a 
 report of that committee. . 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Since Mr. Bent 
 seems to be somewhat of a bone of 
 contention in this clause, like some 
 pthers, I think he ought to be present 
 to defend himself. He possibly oould 
 do it much better than anybody else 
 here, and look after this clause, since 
 he seems to be more interested in it 
 than anybody else. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What has become of 
 the committee that was appointed to 
 take up the inside day wag'e scale, or 
 that part of it on which w^e had dis- 
 agreed. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- That committee 
 met and reported a disagreement. They 
 could not agree at that time, and just 
 after that all committees were called 
 off. We haven't met since that. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think it would be 
 well at this tim'e, orwlnff to the fact 
 that we desire Mr. Bent's presence, and 
 the presence of others when this clause 
 is discussed, that a new committee be 
 appointed to take that matter up, and 
 
 let us get both those matters out of 
 the way. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Wbuldn't it be 
 well to defer this 24th clause? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Well, defer it. The 
 matteT I wanted to call the attention 
 of the committee to was the other 
 clause which was referred to a com- 
 mittee. That committee, by the action 
 of the convention, has been practically 
 discharged, as all of us were at that 
 time, and it strikes me that you will 
 get around the matter quicker by ap- 
 pointing another committee to take it 
 up. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The 11th clause was 
 referred to a committee consisting' of 
 Messrs. Newsaip, Keefer, MoOrshead, 
 Reynolds, Topham, Picton. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— That Is the com- 
 mittee that met, talked the matter over 
 and went back and reported to the 
 convention they could not agree at that 
 time, just after that all committees 
 were called off. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:- 1 move the 11th 
 clause be re-referred to that commit- 
 tee. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. KEEFER: — The committee on 
 the 16th clause regrets to announce 
 that it is unable to reach an agree- 
 ment. At times we thought we were 
 on the point of an agreement; but fin- 
 ally a few technicalities prevented us 
 from reaching it. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Po I under- 
 stand that the committee reports a dis- 
 agreement entirely? 
 
 MR. KEEPER: — No, sir; the commit- 
 tee was substantially agreed as to the 
 duties of the miners and the operators 
 as a generality, was substantllally 
 agreed as to the penalties for the fail- 
 ure to perform the duties under the 
 contract. The disagreement Is largely 
 a matter of words. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I would like to 
 ask whether in the oudnlon of that 
 committee they are unable to get to- 
 gether, or whether they think It might 
 bel possible if they were continued that 
 they could get together? 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Mr. Moors- 
 head's question has been answered very 
 clearly by the report of the committee, 
 that we agreed to disagree. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— There is no 
 clause in the present state agreement 
 that I am so much opposed to as I 
 am to the present 16th clause, carry- 
 ing with it the various constructions 
 which have been placed upon it, not- 
 withstanding the fact that it has been 
 Interpreted by Mr. Justl and President 
 Mitchell. Notwithstanding that fact, 
 I do not believe that we can arrive at 
 any tangible conclusion here by dis- 
 cussing matters In this sub-scale com- 
 mittee. For that reason I am in favor 
 of accepting the report of the commit- 
 tee and discharging the committee. I 
 do this, Mr. Chairman, for the purpose 
 of seeing If we cannot bring in some- 
 thing that will be favorable to this 
 committee on the 16th clause. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I move the re- 
 
Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 257 
 
 port of the sub-co<mmdt'tee be received, 
 and the committee discharged. (Sec- 
 onded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Inasmuch as 
 we have taJten this question up and 
 discussed it, and arrived at no possible 
 conclusion, I again mcive you that the 
 committee be selected to take up the 
 16th clause and bring In a rei)ort to 
 this sub-scale ooimmittee. (Seconded 
 and adopteid.) 
 
 Messrs. Keefer, Duggan and Hull 
 were selected to represent the opera- 
 tors, and Messrs. Heftl, Morris and 
 Drews the miners. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— The committee 
 will stand adjourned until seven 
 o'clock. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 9, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order at 
 7:45 o'clock p. m. by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We understand that 
 paragraphs A and B and E of the 13th 
 clause have been adopted and the 
 clauses D and F have no* yeit been 
 agreed upon. Tour committee reached 
 an agreement and reports as follows: 
 
 "Clause D. iTie pit committee in the 
 discharge of its duties shall under no 
 circumstances go around the mine for 
 any cause whatever unless called upon 
 by the pit boss or by a miner or com- 
 pany man who may have a grievance 
 that he cannot settle with the ^boss: 
 and as its duties are confined to the 
 adjustment of any such grievances, it 
 is understood that its members shall 
 not draw any compensation except 
 while actively engaged in the discharge 
 of said duties." 
 
 Then insert: "Any pit committeeman 
 who shall attempt to execute any local 
 rule or proceeding in conflict with any 
 provision of this contract or any other 
 rule made in pursuance hereof shall 
 "be forthwith deposed as committeeman. 
 
 "The foregoing shall not be construed 
 to prohibit the pit committee from 
 looking after the matter of member- 
 ship dues and initiations in any proper 
 manner." 
 
 And for clause P as follows. 
 
 "The right to hire and discharge, the 
 management of the mine and the direc- 
 tion of the working force, are vested 
 exclusively in the operator, and the U. 
 M. W. of A. shall not abridge this 
 right. It is not the intention of this 
 provision to encourage the discharge of 
 employes or the refusal of employment 
 to applicants because of personal prej- 
 udice or activity in matters afCeteting 
 the U. M. W. of A." Then returning 
 to the language of the present con- 
 tract. "If any employe shall be sus- 
 pended or discharged by the company 
 and it is claimed that an injustice has 
 been done him, an investigation to be 
 conducted by the parties and in the 
 manner set forth in paragraphs A and 
 B of this section shall be taken up 
 promptly, and if it is proven that an 
 
 injustice has been done, the operator 
 shall reinstate said employe and pay 
 him full compensation for the time he 
 has been suspended and out of em- 
 ployment; provided, if no decision shall 
 be rendered within five days, the case 
 shall be considered closed insofar as 
 compensation is concerned." 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I move their adop- 
 tion, Mr. Chairman. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— It has been mov- 
 ed and seconded to adopt the clauses 
 just read. Are you ready to vote? 
 
 MR. BENT:— ^'e are prepared to 
 vote after proper assurance has been 
 given us in the record that any list 
 at the mines showing the order that 
 men shall be employed, will be discon- 
 tinued. 
 
 MR, MITCHELL:— Mr. Chairman, 
 the miners' organization In Illinois h£is 
 no lists now of applicants whom they 
 require to be employed in the order of 
 their application. It is not the policy 
 of the organization here to have such 
 lists. We do expect— and I think the 
 operators will agree with us that where 
 men who are employed by a company 
 have been thrown out of employment 
 by the closing of a part of a mine, they 
 shall be given employment in prefer- 
 ence to strangers coming along, but 
 there is no intention to list the appli- 
 cants for employment and require their 
 employment in turn, in the order of 
 their application, or anything of that 
 kind. - ' 
 
 There is one other matter I think I 
 might say to the members of our com- 
 mittee who are desirous of having a 
 section put in this agreement that 
 would afford them all the protection 
 they think they are entitled to, that 
 the operators have said to our commit- 
 tee that in accordance with the agree- 
 ment, that part of the agreement that 
 was put in there at the request of the 
 miners, that the operators themselves 
 intend to frame a letter and send It to 
 the members of their association call- 
 ing attention to the complaints that 
 hiive been made here and urging that 
 In employing^ them care be exercised 
 and no cause given for complaints of 
 this character in future. 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTT:— Mr. President, 
 would it be right for what members of 
 our scale committee is here present to 
 take any such action in regard to this 
 matter now? There are only four here 
 that I can see, and the others are away. 
 Mr. Perry, and I think another member 
 of the committee are absent, and would 
 Kve be doing justice to these men to 
 allow this to be accepted when they are 
 not present? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— This matter waa 
 referred to all members of the coro- 
 mittee. The agreement that was reach- 
 ed was reported to our own commit- 
 tee, and there was no objection to the 
 report. So I take it for granted that 
 they were all satisfied with it; other- 
 wise they would have been present at 
 this time. 
 
258 
 
 Evening Session, March a. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— This sub-committee 
 will have to report to the full scale 
 committee anyhow. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the sections were adop- 
 ted). 
 
 (The secretary read the 18th clause at 
 the present agreement). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I move 
 the 19th clause of the operators' scale 
 as a substitute. (Second). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 substitute is confined just as closely to 
 cases of emergency work or surplus or- 
 dinary repairs as the clause In the 
 present agreement. It is simply a lit- 
 tle more explicit to avoid any misun- 
 derstanding at the mines. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Mr. Bent, just a ques- 
 tion. "What is the necessity of your 
 19th clause since you have got the 18th. 
 Does it not cover the same ground? 
 
 MR. BENT:— If it does, it doesn't do 
 it any harm; and if it does not it ought 
 to be adopted. I am not sure but you 
 are right. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think the ground that 
 you desire to cover is already covered 
 in the 19th clause. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The only difference that 
 I observe is that the other clause re- 
 lates to extensive repairs, and this re- 
 lates to emergency work and extra, 
 surplus, ordinary repairs. That is 
 when you have more repairs than the 
 men ordinarily employed can do. It 
 seems to be different in that respect. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — One applies to the er- 
 ection of head frames, buildings, 
 scales, machinery, railroad switches, 
 etc.. Including extensive repairs to the 
 plant, and the other is for ordinary re- 
 pairs about the plant. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I think that cov- 
 ers the whole case. It says: "All be- 
 ing In the nature of construction 
 work." 
 
 MR. BENT:— Some of this is not 
 construction work. It is when you have 
 ^ot an unusual amount of repairs 
 M'hich you need to expedite and cannot 
 wait to do it with your own men. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It seems to me 
 when a man ooraes t)o dto that work 
 he ought to be a member of the min- 
 ers' organization. I don't see what you 
 want to make exceptions of that kind 
 for. It may be only a day or two 
 days' wiork. 
 
 Mr. BUCHANAN: — Suppose in case 
 of a break-dotwn to the screen or hoist- 
 ing apparatus which is liable to im- 
 pede the hoisting of a shaft, Mr. Mit- 
 chell, and has to be done quickly, ai>d 
 it is more work than it Is possible — or 
 work which we don't have men on our 
 pay roll capable of doing. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In that case I 
 think we provide for an emergency in 
 the old agreement. That would be 
 emergency work. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Is that the class 
 of work an emergency is intended to 
 cover? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think so I re- 
 
 gard that all as emergency work; any- 
 thing of that kind. 
 
 MR. .TEREMIAH!:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 don't see what more' they would want.' 
 If they would read' that 19th clause all 
 the way through I think it would cov- 
 er any necessary repairs in or around 
 the mines or the rebuilding of the 
 same. I think that covers the whole 
 thing. I can't see any objection, to 
 just letting the clause stand as it is. It 
 covers all of their work, emergency 
 work and necessary repairs, and the re- 
 building of any new work. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — This says extensive 
 repairs, Mr. Jeremiah. Suppose we 
 didn't want to make' extensive repairs, 
 but light repairs, and you didn't have 
 a man on your pay roll that could do It. 
 That is frequently the case. This clause 
 would not be necessary if we were 
 dealing with this committee in cases ot 
 that kind, but we have cases frequent- 
 ly where the pit committee seem to 
 look at the thing in a very peculiar 
 light. They will insist on taking the 
 men in their turn, the top men, and 
 putting them at work they are abso- 
 lutely unable to do. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— If you were to tear 
 down your head fram6 and rebuild' it 
 again you would call it extensive re- 
 pairs, wouldn't you? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Yea. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Have you got any men 
 around your mine now that could take 
 a hold of that job and do it? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— No, sir. 
 
 MR. BENT:— But it isn't cases of 
 that kind that are referred to. It is 
 the regular routine work thait yoooi have 
 so much of that your ordinary force \ 
 cannot handle, and we have safe guard- 
 ed this by saying that it shall not in- 
 terfere with or displace men usually 
 employed in such work; that we do not 
 propose to throw idle a single man 
 whose duty it is to do that work in 
 order to take outside men to do It; but 
 we may have more than ordinarily we 
 can do, and yet it is ordinary work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You agree with us that 
 rebuilding of your tipple would be 
 emergency work and call for emergency 
 men? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes. Now we are 
 speaking of something that is not tear- 
 ing it down and rebuilding it, but sim- 
 ply excess of ordinary repairs while 
 the mine is in operation, for which we 
 cannot spare men because they are al- 
 ready employed. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Suppose they 
 would tear their fan engine up and 
 they were going to rebuild, or even 
 their fan house and replace their fan 
 engine. That would be extensive re- 
 pairs there. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Well, that is an ex- 
 ception. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— It is regular 
 emergency work. I think it is covered 
 in that 19th clause, every bit. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I do not agr^e with 
 you. The other day we smashed up 
 
Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 259 
 
 one of our cages. We had to' build a 
 new cage. The regular man we had 
 around was not able to do that work. 
 We wanted him to work every minute 
 f roni the time we started on that till 
 we gpt it, finished, so the mine would 
 not be idle any longer than possible. 
 Now If they had held; us right down to 
 our regular men employed for that 
 work, tjiey would, have laid the mine 
 out a day or two. 
 
 MR, MITCHELL,:— But did they hold 
 you down? 
 
 MR. liUKENS:— No. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Anybody attempt 
 it? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— No, they didn't in 
 that case, but we had a good majiy 
 oases where they have. 
 
 MR.. MITCHELL:— That would be an 
 emergency. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Yes, and exten- 
 ."Ive, too. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Now if the pur- 
 pose is to have men come and do the 
 regular work that is now performed 
 by your regular employes and have 
 them come there for an indefinite per- 
 iod, it is simply going to op^n up a 
 question that will result in endless con- 
 tention. 1 don't believe we ought to 
 be so technical In making this agree- 
 ment as to create trouble. , I am of 
 the opinion that our last year's agree- 
 ment was entirely too technical and it 
 created trouble as the result. 
 
 MR. BENT:— To avoid the charge of 
 being technical, which we don't wish 
 to be, we are willing to fall back on 
 the par.agraph in the present contract 
 which has been interpreted already in 
 a way to gu's-rd against what Mr. Mit- 
 chell speaks of. I move the adoption 
 of the 18th' clause of the present agree- 
 ment. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move the 
 adoption of clause 21, parasraphs A 
 and B of the present agreement. 
 
 PRESIDENT RUSSELL:— I second 
 the motion. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move to amend by 
 substituting the 22nd clause of the op- 
 erators' Fcale. fSecoiided). 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I do not see why 
 the operators will introduce substi- 
 tutes here that they know will bring 
 out useless argument and useless dis- 
 cussion. I think tliat we discussed this 
 matter last year thoroughly. I do not 
 think that all the discussions that 
 could be entered into here could change 
 the present clause in the present agree- 
 ment: 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Chairman, hold 
 that matter up for just a minute, will 
 you? 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— All right, we 
 will w^it for you. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the 26th clause of the present agree- 
 ment. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Mr. President, 
 I have been instructed by , my local to 
 bring this up, that there are several 
 places at Vifden where, the water is in ' 
 
 the places and the men cannot work 
 there. I know In one case myself of 
 one entry where the last time that I 
 waS in to see It the water was over a 
 foot in the entry, and the entrymen 
 couldn't work it at all. They were 
 working in the other entry. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— A point of order, 
 Mr. Chairman. This body here cannot 
 enforce the agreement. 'They can slm- 
 ply Make' one. If tliere is %ny such con- 
 dition as that there, the pit commit- 
 tee' has Shown their ability to take 
 care of the Interest of the miners. That 
 is a matter to take up there and not 
 here. 
 
 Mr. RYAN:— The point of order is 
 not well taken. The delegate Is dis- 
 cussing this clause, which he has a 
 perfect right to do. 
 
 JMR. DELEHANTY:— And, Mr. Pres- 
 ident, the men that work in that en- 
 try — ^Mr. Lukens knows the man I am 
 alluding to— it Is Boswell's entry, that 
 entry that Bpswell is working in, and 
 the water there is undoubtedly so §.s 
 the man cannot do anything with it. 
 He told me that under no means coTjld 
 he get the water out of that entry. This 
 I know to be a- fact because I was in 
 the entry, and took the water out of 
 the entry to mix cement to plaster with. 
 •THat is my water hole. They won't 
 take the water away out of the place. 
 •They told me they wouldn't take the 
 water out of the place. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I might say, Mr. 
 Chairman, that is the first I ever heard 
 of that complaint. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Delelvanty if this matter has 
 been reported to the manager of the 
 mine or reported to the pit committee? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— The entry man 
 told me it was, and he couldn't get the 
 water out of the entry. That he told 
 me two or three days ago. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— I think it would be 
 well for the operators to give us a lit- 
 tle something in the record about that 
 water before this clause passes. I' 
 knew I have had some trouble In get-' 
 ting the com'panles in dlflterent parts ot 
 my Held to keep the water out. They 
 claim they have made an- attempt to 
 keep the 'water out, but still they don't 
 do it, I have known men to have to 
 go home on account of water being in 
 their places, and it has been reported 
 to me. They claim they have made all 
 the efforts in the world to keep it out. 
 The men claim they have not had men 
 in there for two or three days.- I have 
 known places where it would make on- 
 ly a barrel of water a day, but they 
 would let it run there for two or three 
 days. The consequence would be the 
 water would be so' high then they 
 couldn't get it out. Of course they may 
 use all the care and caution in the 
 world to keep it out, but still it is not 
 kept out in a 'number of places. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— All I can say aboijt 
 that matter is that it is our intention 
 at all times to live up to the agree- 
 
260 
 
 Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 ment. If there is a condition of that 
 kind at our mine where they are not 
 living up to the agreement it Is the 
 duly of the miners to take the matter 
 up in the proper manner, and see that 
 we do live up to it. I dislike exceed- 
 ingly to have a matter of this kind 
 brought up at this place when they 
 have said nothing about It at home and 
 I have no means of knowing there was 
 any complaint at all. I think it hard- 
 ly a fair proposition. We want to live 
 up to the agreement and propose; to 
 live up to it. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I want to know if 
 the operators would not say that if a 
 man was sent home from water being 
 in his place through the neglect of the 
 company not taking it out, that that 
 man would be suspended for that day 
 from work through neglect of the com- 
 pany. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't see what we 
 have to do with the enforcing of this 
 agreement. We are making aji agree- 
 ment here and It does seem to be un- 
 fair to have to go into our record here 
 a local question of this kind. If It has 
 not been taken up at the mines for ad- 
 justment. If the miners want us to 
 keep the mines In as dry a condition 
 as practicable we will pass this resolu- 
 tion. If they want us to say we will 
 not do it, we vrill pass that. But let 
 us do one or the other. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Tou are getting quite 
 agreeable. 
 
 I would like some of the operators to 
 tell us what they think we ought to do 
 with an operator who persistently vio- 
 lates that clause In the agreement. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye and the 26th clause was 
 adopted). 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 in this matter of the machine mine 
 differential, we considered It useless, 
 and it would be a waste of time to go 
 through the usual jockeying that we 
 have been doing here, by first offer- 
 ing one proposed scale and then anoth- 
 er and drifting back to last year's con- 
 tract. I might say by way of pre- 
 liminary remarks on the motion I am 
 about to offer that the operators of 
 Illlhtois once more earnestly protest 
 against what we are pleased to term 
 the rankest kind of a discrimination, 
 insofar as it refers to our interstate 
 movement In year after year, fastening 
 upon the machine mine operators of 
 Illinois a seven-cent differential. And 
 it is all the more astonishing that they 
 will undertake to do It and yet come 
 In here year after year asking for 
 higher prices for mining in the north 
 and higher prices for mining in the 
 south, and tacking on all sorts of con- 
 ditions which add extra burdens to the 
 operators of Illinois. We are already 
 loaded down with conditions that ben- 
 efit the miners of Illinois far in excess 
 ot anything that they have In Indi- 
 ana, Ohio or Pennsylvania.. We know, 
 Mr. Chairman, that we cannot escape 
 
 this seven-cent differential which has' 
 been fastened on to the balance of Ill- 
 inois, while the miners say that ten 
 cents shall be given to the operators of' 
 the Danville district, unless we have a 
 struggle for it. We don't want to get 
 into that, but I am satisfied that we are 
 drifting there, because^ it is such 
 things as this that make the operators 
 dissatisfied to such an extent that they 
 would' not shrink very much from the 
 Issue were it to come; not very much. 
 The operators of Illinois want fairness. 
 They want equality. They want what 
 is competitive and right, and nothing- 
 more, and the machine mine operators 
 no less than anybody else. But since 
 it cannot be gotten from the miners, 
 since we can only expect to secure it 
 after a struggle, I now offer under this 
 protest the following: 
 
 "Except at ithe' basing point. Dan- 
 ville, the differential for machine min- 
 ing throughout the state shall be seven 
 cents per ton less than the pick mining- 
 rate; it being understood and agreed: 
 that the machine mining rate shall in- 
 clude the snubbing of coal either by 
 powder or wedge and sledge, as con- 
 ditions may warrant, where chain ma- 
 chines are used; but it is understood' 
 that this coindltloin shall not apply 
 where two men have and work In one- 
 place only In the same shift, except at 
 the option of the miner; and it shall 
 also be optional with the miner which 
 systemi of snubbing shall be followed. 
 The established divisions of the ma- 
 chine rate shall continue in effect dur- 
 ing the life of this agreement, except 
 in the Seventh and Eighth districts, 
 which being unsatisfactory are refer- 
 red to the miners and operators of thos? 
 sub-districts for settlement, and 
 should a disagreement occur the mat- 
 ter shall be referred to a board of 
 three operators and three miners for 
 adjustment, and the same shall be 
 acted upon not later than May 1st, 1902. 
 This commission shall be appointed by- 
 the president of the Illinois Coal Op- 
 erators' association, and the Presidents 
 of the United Mine Workers of America 
 for the state of Illinois. 
 
 (d) The established rates of shear- 
 ing machines and air or electric drills 
 as now existing shall remain unchang- 
 ed during the ensuing year." 
 
 MR. L.UKENS:— I second the mo- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. CAHILiL:— I don't think that we- 
 have the right to take up the division 
 of the machine rate throughout ths 
 state. That is a matter I think that 
 should be left to the districts. There- 
 are hardly two mines, and particularly 
 no two sub-dlstrlcts in the state that 
 demand the same division between the 
 loader and runner. We have In the 
 state quite a number of divisions some 
 as high as eleven cents; others down 
 as low as four and a half or five cents.. 
 Those were all fixed either by local set- 
 tlement or by sub-district agreement,, 
 and it is the only way it can be fixed- 
 
Evening Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 261 
 
 H'ow, if there Is a machine division In 
 the state that is not just, W don't see 
 -what right the operator has to ask that 
 it be maintained. If it is not right 
 and just between the loader after the 
 machine and the runner and the scrap- 
 er, it should be made so. It is not 
 Just for a runner to make probably $40 
 or $50 or $60 a pay, a man loading coal 
 -after him only makes $25 or $28. That 
 is no fair division. In the thick vein 
 iiie rate is 42 cents and the seven cents 
 differential makes it 49 cents. The 
 runner gets seven cents and the loader 
 35 cents. We claim that in the thick 
 •coal the division of the rate Is not just. 
 It v^as made by sub-district and only 
 -would extend till the first day of April, 
 and I claim that we have a right to 
 take that up at .our next sub-distr-'ct 
 -meeting and adjust it. And I say there- 
 fore, Mr. Chairman, I don't think the 
 operators have a right to bring that in- 
 to a state meeting because it never was 
 brought in here before. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. C a hill, 
 what district have you reference to? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— The Fourth is the 
 special district. , 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— That 1s the 
 Chicago & Alton? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Yes, Sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I don't know 
 -any one subject that brought out more 
 •controversy or that was gone into more 
 -thoroughly than the machine minin?: 
 Tate for the Chlcg^io & Altom sub-dis- 
 trict. Mr. Cahlll was present, and I 
 think yourself (Mr. Ryan) and Mr.. Mit- 
 chell at Springfield, where there was a 
 •contest as to whether the division of 
 the machine mining rate for the Chi- 
 cago & Alton sub-district should be 6% 
 •or 7 cents. Do you remember It? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tes, sir. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Tou remember, 
 TMr. Cahill, after we had wrestled with 
 that subject all day and far into the 
 night, it was finally settled by a joint 
 board of which President Mitchell was 
 chairman, that the divisioin for that 
 ' -district for electrical machine mining 
 should be 7 cents. Now, there has been 
 no change In the conditions. The pick 
 mining rate !is exactly the same, 49 
 cents, and I would likei to know 
 whether -we have gat to gO' back to 
 the sub-district and fight that out 
 again. Tou say that notwithistanding 
 the machine mine differential in In- 
 ■diana, which for punching machines is 
 10 cents and for electrical machines 
 12% cents on the same pick mine rate 
 in Illinois, you say it shall be seven 
 cents with us year after year, and you 
 eay we cannot change it; but you come 
 In here and say that you have a right 
 toi change the division of the machine! 
 mining rate, even after it has been set- 
 tled by a joint board, of which our 
 national president was chairman. "We 
 want toi get rid of as much of that 
 sort of stuff as possible. If we allow 
 thes'e things to creep in here year after 
 year, after we have gone through 
 
 something like five weeks of work In 
 interstate and state convemtlona, then 
 go down to a district convention and 
 wrestle on a subject of this kind, which 
 means all the way from one to two 
 days on that subject alone, where will 
 we end? Is it nolt possible to fix som^e- 
 thing? Tou manage to fix the 7-cent 
 machine mine differential in Illinol-g 
 and hold it there, but you play loose 
 on everything else. There is not any- 
 thing fair about the proposition at all. 
 Tou are trying to make the thing cut 
 two ways for yourself. I should think 
 you would let us have some little fair 
 play in the matter. God knows we 
 haven't got very much. Now, we w^an^ 
 that thing passed, Mr. Chairman. We 
 don't want to go back t'o our sub-dis- 
 trict and have that thing opened up 
 again. There is nothing fair or reason- 
 able about it. We took it up by special 
 committee with the national president 
 present, wrestled with it all day, well 
 into the night and settled it. There 
 has been noi change whatever in the 
 pick mining rate, nor in the conditions. 
 The same class of machines are being 
 used, everything is identical, and now 
 they want to take It up ag'ain in the 
 sub-districts. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 am glad that Mr. Moorshead has 
 made that record, because we had a 
 board of arbitration to fix the machine 
 min? ig rate where the only dispute was 
 in "V /■■illiamson county. Now triey want 
 to ("isturb that. That is all I have got 
 to I ay. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 insofar as that matter is converned, I 
 understand it never has been seittled. 
 It has been drifting back and forth 
 from one body to another and Is still 
 unsettled. That is the reason why we 
 put this 'clause In, to try and fix it 
 up for those gentlemen so that it will 
 be satisfactory. Our case and the Chi- 
 cago & Alton sub-district are entirely 
 different. It was taken up by a special 
 committee with your national president 
 In the chair, party to the agreement, 
 and it is an entirely different matter 
 to that in the seventh district. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— As I stated, there 
 hasn't been a dispute down there only 
 at one mine about the machine rate 
 and the 11th clause of the sub-district 
 agreement reads like this: 
 
 "Division of machine rate at mine of 
 the Chicago & Carterville Coal com- 
 pany was referred to a committee 
 which reports as follow: 'We agree to 
 leave the machine case at Chicago & 
 Carterville Coal company's mine at 
 Herrin, 111., for adjustment by local or 
 a board of arbitrators of disintepested 
 parties. The company tO' retain one 
 cent per ton off the machine men until 
 case is settled on and after April 1st, 
 1901. ■ The mine must continue at work. 
 . (Signed) W. J. McLain and ' G. W. 
 Hall.' Above report was adopted by 
 your committee." 
 
 I contend, Mr. Chairman, Ihat that 
 
262 
 
 Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 case was taken up by a board. .The 
 company intended that that board was 
 not a disinterested board, and, we al- 
 lowed a second board to be selected, 
 and it was taken up by a second board 
 and a decision was given. Now I con- 
 tend that that was settled by a dis- 
 interested board of arbitration. 
 
 MR. MOOBSHEAD:— Were the oper- 
 ators invited to be present when this 
 matter was taken, up? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I think not. 
 
 MB- MOORSHEAD:— And yet you 
 consider it a settlement, do you? 
 ' MR. JEREMIAH:— I contend, Mr. 
 Chairman, that the operators at Belle- 
 ville met with the miners over there 
 and fussed for four oit Ave days, and 
 couldn't settle the rate in the Belleville 
 district, and they had to leave the con- 
 vention and leave it to the miners, and 
 I took the matter up at Pinckneyville 
 in that scale district and adjusted it 
 there. Brother Heftd and the district 
 officials and the miners of the Belle- 
 vlUe district got together and adjusted 
 the rate up there, and I believe the 
 miners are more- competent to adjust 
 the rate between themselves than what 
 the miners and operators would be. 
 
 MB. MOOBSHEAD:— That is not the 
 point, Mr. Chairman, at all. This is a 
 joint movement, and anything that 
 tends to affect our interests — and our 
 interests are seriously affected if there 
 is not a fair division — then the operator 
 should be allowed to be present, .ind 
 when he is not and the evidence 'is all 
 expartei it certainly is wrong, absolute- 
 ly, wrong. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I want to ask 
 Mr. MooTshead a question: Can. you 
 get any fairer board than a disinterest- 
 ed party to settle the case. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Well, that de- 
 pends on who the disinterested parties 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I ask the ques- 
 tion. , , ,^ 
 
 ,, MR. MOOI^SHEAD:— I couldn't an- 
 swer the question in, any 'other way. 
 What was the board made up of, 
 min'ers? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Why they would 
 have to be miners' and machine men 
 to know anything aboait it. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— No operators? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— No. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Just miners? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Miners and ma- 
 chine men. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— T'OU call that 
 fair, do you? 
 
 MR. JEBEMIAH: — Machine men. 
 We'll, machine men are miners. They 
 do what the miners don't do. That is, 
 the loader men and machine men. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— And you call 
 that a fair settlement, do you? 
 
 MB. JEBEMIAH:— I think so. 
 
 MB. MOORSHEAD:— Well, I don't. 
 That is where we differ. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't think that 
 it ought to be, or that it is the pur- 
 pose of 'the miners to disturb the divis- 
 ions of the machine scale every year. 
 
 but it doeiS seem to me that the oper- 
 ators' : proposition is not a consistent 
 one. They select two districts in Illi- 
 nois and refer these districts back for 
 a local division of the machine mining 
 scale. That is an evidence that the di- 
 visltons in those districts are not satis- 
 factory to the operator, and that the 
 divisions are made in the other dis- 
 tricts satisfactory to the operators. 
 -Now if the 7th and 8th divisions are 
 unsatisfactory to the operators, would 
 it not follow that if in some other 
 districts the division was unsatisfact- 
 ory to the miners, that they also might 
 to be referred back for re-adjustment. 
 Personally I don't believe they ought 
 to make a d/ivisiion of the machine 
 mining scale in such a manner as will 
 prevent your securing good machine 
 runners and helpers, and I think there 
 is, some complaint of that kind from 
 the operators, particularly in the 7th 
 and 8th districts. I don't think that 
 the miners' organization or its locals 
 should in any manner attempt to dis- 
 courage the operation of the machine 
 by paying the runner a rate that 
 would discourage him. But the opera- 
 tors' propositions now Is not consistent, . 
 if the miners are ntot satisfied in some 
 other districts, or the loaders. If 
 there are districts where the runners 
 and helpers have a larger portion of 
 the machine mining scale than the 
 other workers believe they are entitled 
 to, they wx>uld have the same right to 
 ask tha:t it be referred back that you 
 have to ask that the 7th and 8th dis- 
 tricts be referred back for disposition. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— We don't agree with 
 Mr. Mitchell on that proposition be- 
 cause we claim that the rates in these 
 districts that we propose to refer back 
 for settlement — the 7th and 8th — have 
 never been legally adjusted. Tou take 
 in the 7th district particularly, there 
 is a rate established there In which the 
 operators had no voice whatever; were 
 not allowed to have. The rate was 
 fixed at such a low rate as to seriously 
 embarrass the operation of the mine. 
 1 understand that they have had no 
 less than 108 machine runners there at 
 that mine, and the rate is so low that 
 they cannot get competent men. 
 
 MR. MITCHElLL:— W^hat mine is 
 that? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— The Chicago & 
 Carterville Coal company. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That the men are 
 not able to make wa^es — that is good 
 wages. They have cut the production 
 of that mine down from 1,200 to 800 
 tons a day. That certainly Is not a 
 fair proposition. Anyone will concede 
 that. Those machine runners are en- 
 titled to the best wages of anybody 
 in the mine, because they are the best 
 class of men in the mine and work the 
 hardest, and it requires the highest 
 amount of skill. Tou take a machine 
 runner, he is working and working 
 hard practically all day long. He has 
 got to be at his post every day or pro- 
 vide a substitute. A miner can be DfE 
 
Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 263 
 
 generally as often as he sees fit, and 
 reduce the -wages of that machine 
 runner as he ds paid by the ton. And 
 that Is one reason why apparently the 
 machine runner makes more than the 
 miner. That machine of his runs all 
 the time, and if he is not there somiemie 
 else is there. It aJl goes in on his 
 check and the miner seeing that check 
 at the end of the month arid comparing 
 it with his own, when he has been out 
 part of the time, necessarily thinks 
 thdt machine runner is making more 
 money than he does. I wiant 'to say 
 that 1 1 have figures in my pocket show- 
 ing the average wages of the machine 
 runners arid the average wages of the 
 miners, ana there is comparati'veliy little 
 difference; it amounts to about 30 
 cents a day that, the machine runner 
 makes more ithian the miner. Now I 
 contend that men of that class> who do 
 the work that they do, are entitled to 
 make that much more money than the 
 miners. The rate In our district has 
 been > established and fixed for several 
 years, ! since '98, I think. There ihas 
 been no complaint regarding i the divis- 
 ion until ■ this lyear. If think the' locals 
 have overruled the machine runners, 
 have outvoted . them, accord them no 
 representation, and perhaps arbitarjly 
 to reduce that divisioin. Now, that is 
 a matter that we are vitally; Interested 
 in, and weidon't propose to have our 
 mine tied up and our force disorgan- 
 ized and conditions obtain that would 
 be the case were the rate changed. 
 Our maehin© runners have served no- 
 tice on us that they will not work at 
 any less rate. Even if we could ob- 
 tain machine runners ajt a less- rate, .-we 
 would have, to take new men, we would 
 have to break them. in, and that would 
 mean a loss to. our compamy of thou- 
 sands of .dollars in repairs i that would 
 be necessary to put on tjjose, .macfttaes 
 on account of incompe^tent , runners 
 learning how to run .them. .Now.thg-t is 
 something that it Is not "fair to ask 
 us to stand, there is injustice in , it, 
 and we certainly will not consent to it. 
 This rate has beem established legally; 
 it has been in effect three or four 
 years, and this is a mighty late day 
 to find out that it is not right. As 
 I. said before,, our machine runners are 
 making but vej-y little more money 
 than the miners, and they are working 
 a good deal harder for it. I will ven- 
 ture to say that you will keep track 
 of the time that they put in, you will 
 find the machine' runner puts 'i'n at 
 the very least 25 per cent more work- 
 ing hours than the miner, if not 50 
 per cent more than the miner. If that 
 is the case, and I think no one can 
 consistently contradict it, he is entitled 
 to 30 cents a day more than the miner. 
 MR. DBL.EHANTT:— There wasn't a 
 harder lot of men forced on our con- 
 vention the night they elected the dele- 
 gate to come to the state convention 
 to have this thing referred back to 
 sub-districts than the machine runners. 
 They watited to get a representation 
 
 and the local seen fit only to send one 
 to represen't, and they requested this 
 not be brought upiin the state conven- 
 tion, that it be referred back to the 
 district. This they all unanimously 
 agreed to do, and there was two-thirds 
 of 'the machine runners that night in 
 the pit. They aske'd thaJt this be 
 brought back to the sub-district. And 
 furthermore, Mr. President, I was also 
 instructed, and it was put in resolu- 
 tions before this scale committee to 
 have the price reduced from 7 cents 
 to 5 cents and three-quarters. 
 
 'MR. CAHILiLii-^Mr. Moorshead said 
 the question of machine differential, or 
 the 'divisiioin, was settled by a special 
 board. I don't agree with Mr. Moors- 
 head on that. Two years ago the ma- 
 chin^ rate was made at Mr. Lukens' 
 mine between himself and his men. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Excuse me. The 
 men divided up- that rate between them- 
 selves. I had nothing to do with it 
 except that it was agreed that in .case 
 of a disagreement I should have a, 
 right to ' be heard and have a right 
 to have a voice In the matter, and I 
 willingly referred It to the men to set- 
 tle if tliey could. But If they could not 
 settle it it was understood and agreed 
 at that time that I was to have an 
 equal voice in the matter. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— That I believe is 
 truei, Mr. Chairman. Aner the rate 
 was made at Mr. Lukens' mine, Mr. 
 Moorshead came into the district and 
 his mine started with machines. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — That was three 
 years ago instead of two. That was 
 in 1898, was it not? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:-^Noi, sir. It was two 
 years ago that Mr. Moorshead started 
 up his mine. I am talking aboiut'Mr. 
 Moorshead's mine. He is the one that 
 said it was settled by a ■ board. Ris 
 mine started up and t,hey then had 
 the division at Divernon at -7 cent.s. 
 That was immediate.ly after the nine 
 cents was given in Indianapolis two 
 years ago. The men at Divernon 
 rai.sed a howl about it, and the matter 
 was taken up by myself — I went over 
 there and tried to persuade the men at 
 Divernon to accept the 7 cents rate 
 on account of Virden accepting it, and 
 let it run a year and take It up joint- 
 ly. They refused to' do it and then I 
 cams out openly and made a ruling that 
 the rate should be 7 cents at Divernon. 
 They took an appeal from my decision 
 to President Mitchell. He appointed a 
 board to go down to Virden and' take 
 the matter up or to go in the district 
 and take it up. To the best of ;ny 
 recollection he apr>ointed Mr. Johnson, 
 of Danville, and Mr. Hefti and .Mr. 
 KUdufE from Staunton. They went to 
 Virden and took the matter of the ma- 
 chine rate up. Their decision to ihe 
 best of my recollection was 6% cents, 
 Staunton rate. The machine men at 
 Virden raised another howl, and said 
 they wouldn't run the machines unless 
 they were paid at the rate that the 
 mine gave them. It was carried along 
 
264 
 
 Evening Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 until finally we took it up aJt Spring- 
 field, and President Mitchell was there, 
 and I think the men at that meeting 
 left it toi myself and Mr. Ryan and 
 Mr. Mitchell and Mr. Wrlg-ht. If you 
 remember that at that meeting, while 
 we did not agree that the rate was 
 right, we said there and then on ac- 
 count of the Virden men agreeing with 
 thetnselves to give the Virden company 
 a rate of 7 cents, we would not dls- 
 
 . turb them. That Is how they came to 
 get the rate at the Chicago & Alton 
 district. It was not fixed by a board. 
 Now last year it was taken up again 
 for adjustment. It was threshed out 
 in onir sub-dlstricst meeting, threshed 
 out very bitterly. It was finally nar- 
 rowed down to the men foUowins: the 
 machine being reduced from 16, I think, 
 to 12, following a siwgle shift, and 26 
 following a double shift. Now that 
 tided the thing over to the present 
 time. They thought by reducing the 
 number of men to a machine that that 
 would increase the earning poiwer of 
 the men loading after the machine. We 
 have at the Virden mine 'today as high 
 as 33 or 34 m^ein following a double 
 shift machine. Tou can readily see 
 with the division of the machine rate 
 
 ..betweten a machine runner and a loader 
 adjusted on a certain number of men 
 following that machine, and the ma- 
 chine cuts so many tons per day, if you 
 Increased the amount of men following 
 the machine, you decrease thei wage 
 earning power of each man that loads 
 aftes. the machine, but leave the man 
 that runs the machine with his wages , 
 standing stationary. Now ithat Is the 
 great bone of contention. If this was 
 referred back to the sub-district, we 
 don't say that we are gtflng to reduce 
 the rate, but we do say there must 
 be something done In that district to 
 more even the wage earning power of 
 the loader and the runner. Mr. Liukens 
 says the machine runner works more 
 than the loader. I want to say when 
 he Is running steady there is quite a 
 number of nights that the night men 
 don't BO down at all. The day men 
 cut sufficient coal in the day time and 
 probably three shifts out of the week 
 to run the mine the balance of the ' 
 week. The machine men at Virden 
 don't average more than five days a 
 week. Now that is what we are kick- 
 ing on. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Mr. President, 
 let me ask the officers who welre 
 sitting on that case that time dn Spring- 
 field that Brother Cahill refers to— T 
 think I was a delegate there myself, 
 when we protested against giiving them 
 seven Oents, was It not an understood 
 thing with us men, shooters and 
 loaders that evening— I believe Brother 
 Mitchell will bear me oiut in what I 
 am going to say, that we were advised 
 t'r> go home, and that we goit aji assur- 
 ance that there would be a reduction 
 fom the 7 cents, but we were well down 
 to the depot when it was fixed up that 
 we get the same differential as we get. 
 
 7 cents. We left John Watson and 
 Frank Smith there. Watson was look- 
 tog after the machine runners' end of 
 it and Frank Smith was looking after 
 the shooters' and loaders' end. I be- 
 lieve it was agreed that he consented 
 when we were there that the 7 cents 
 was rather high, but I believe after 
 he decided he would let It go at 7 cents, 
 as Mr. Mitchell and myself deci^ied so. 
 Then we ceased to make any more 
 noise about it. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — As one of those that 
 has been mentioned as being there, I 
 certainly deny that we went back on 
 any promise that was made to any- 
 body. I don't believe any such promise 
 was made either while you were there 
 or after you left. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Brother Mit- 
 chell, can you bring into your memory 
 me and you holding a conversation In 
 that room where we held the meeting 
 that evening in regard to that? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I recall very well 
 some of the circumstances connected 
 with the matter, Brother Delehanty, 
 and I do remember having said to you 
 that from the Investigation made there 
 and what I had learned about it, I 
 was satisfied that 6% cents would i>er- 
 mit the machine men to earn as much 
 or more money than the loader after 
 the machines, but I do not remember 
 having said to you that you should go 
 home, that the change! wiould be made. 
 But I did express the opinion them' that 
 the machine runners and helpers wfre 
 earning considerably more than the 
 loaders in proportion to the work that 
 they had to do. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Well, I could 
 not say that anyone in particular said 
 it, but it was the understanding 
 amongst the officers that it would be 
 reduced. That was our understanding 
 going home that evening. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Chairman, it is 
 quite a surprise to me to see this ma- 
 chine question come up. As the offic- 
 ials from both sides are well aware, this 
 question has been up in the Eighth dis- 
 trict for the past two years, until In 
 1901 it was settled. w:e gave them a 
 two weeks' test there. The operators 
 that were interested picked a runner 
 and I picked a helper. They tried It for 
 two weeks at that mine. And then af- 
 ter that they got the runners and the 
 helpers and the loaders together. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What mlnei was that? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Whitehead's, 
 These three parties made the division 
 of 11 cents to go to the runner and 
 helper, and 38 cents to go to the load- 
 er. At this present time there are men 
 who claim they will run those machines 
 at that division, providing that they 
 will give them wide working or open 
 rooms to work In. The great trouble 
 there has been heretofore, because 
 they had been working on cross cuts 
 and narrow work. If at any time the 
 operators of the Eighth district wish 
 a price for narrow work with their ma- 
 
Evening Sbssion, March 9. 
 
 265 
 
 ■chines, we are ready to meet them at 
 any and all times and give them a 
 price, but as far as the division is 
 •concerned, with a helper, a runn,er and 
 a loader, they are the men that made 
 that divison and are satisfied with the 
 ■division, and consequently I would not 
 ■want to be a party to make that divi- 
 sion after the men had been put to the 
 test and showed figures whereby the 
 ■division was proper and right. 
 
 MR. WHITEHEAD:— The remarks of 
 the last speaker refer to the machines 
 at our mines. The machine runner 
 that made the test came from another 
 mine, and after he had made the test 
 he went back to his work. Those ma- 
 chines have never run since. That 
 shows how well satisfied the miners 
 ^re. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — You mean the mine 
 -where the test was made, that the ma- 
 chines haven't run in the mine where 
 the test was made, since the test was 
 ■made? 
 
 MR. "WHITEHEAD:— Yes, sir, not- 
 withstanding that I advertised for 
 machine runners when these men left 
 the machines. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I just told Mr. White- 
 head, and I was willing to go on rec- 
 ord as saying that if he will give those 
 machine runners and helpers wide 
 Tvork at the division that is made now 
 -which was made for wide work, I will 
 see that he gets runners and helpers 
 too before this week ts out. If he 
 gives them wide work they will run 
 his machines. 
 
 MR. AVHITEHEAD:— Our machine 
 rooms when they are opened up are 40 
 feet wide. I think that Is plenty wide 
 enough, and they haven't shown a dis- 
 -position to run the machines and make 
 a test, ailthough they did complain be- 
 fore they made the test in regard to the 
 Tiarrow work, and I put the entries on 
 to hand mining in order to give the 
 -machines entirely room work. On 
 that understanding I was not able to 
 make them run. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— I am sorry that 
 we are the cause of so much discus- 
 sSon here. I had hoped when I came 
 here some two weeks ago that after 
 having struggled along with this thing 
 three or four years, that we would find 
 a way to narrow it down so that we 
 •could get home in a week, but in order 
 to do justice to one subject it seems as 
 if we had to devote a day or two to it. 
 The trouble with us in our thick seam 
 down there is not because the men do 
 not earn good money. It is a great big 
 scramble to see who gets the best of It. 
 That is all there is to it. Down at 
 Glen Carbon^where we have an aver- 
 age of 6% foot of coal and operate the 
 punching machines, our rate Is 12 
 -cents for machine runner and helper; 
 12 cents on a 49-cent mining rate, Mr. 
 •Chairman. Now when we come up to 
 this town of Divemon and Virden 
 where they haven't less than eight 
 foot of coal, (and at Divernon an aver- 
 
 age of 8%, nearly two feet more coal), 
 where the machine runner gets seven 
 cents only out of the same rate, giving 
 the loader an advantage of five cents 
 per ton over the men working on the 
 thinner seam down below Jn the Glen 
 Carbon district, they are still dissatis- \ v 
 fied. It win be a surprise to the north- 
 ern men and to the men working in 
 thinner seams to see what those men 
 are earning In an 8% foot seam, both at 
 Mount Olive and also at Divernon, but 
 the latter place particularly, and 
 strange to say, Mr. Chairman, the 
 greatest dissatisfaction that we have 
 among our men — those who are the 
 hardest to please — men whom it is al- 
 most impossible to get along with, cre- 
 ating endless trouble from day to day, 
 week to week throughout the year — are 
 the men who have the greatest advant- 
 age and earn the biggest money with 
 the greatest ease. I don't know what 
 to think of them, but I have to say 
 this, that the men who are working In 
 the 8% foot seam won't have to give 
 us much more trouble to get a very 
 good rest. We are simply sick and tired 
 of the complaints and the troubles 
 that we get from the No. 6 mine, and 
 the men who, of all men ought to be 
 more satisfied than anybody in the 
 state of Illinois. They never knew 
 such conditions before anywhere 
 throughout the state, never had such 
 advantages in all their lives as thev 
 have there, never had a better mine to 
 work in and never will. But you can't 
 please them.. 'They are working for the 
 other cent, scrambling anJong them- 
 selves for what? Something that be- 
 longs to the other fellow. I don't know 
 when it will end, I am sure. I sup- 
 pose not until after the place has been 
 shut down and somebody has had a 
 good severe lesson and paid a stiff pen- 
 alty for it. 
 
 MR. CAHIIiL:— Mr. Moorshead lays 
 very great stress on the men of Di- 
 vernon and in the thick seam. I won't 
 be quite as strong as he was, but I 
 think whenever Mr. Moorshead gets 
 ready, let him go ahead. I have list- 
 ened to this pretty near as long as I 
 care to listen to it. It is an everlasting 
 slur at the men in the thick seam from 
 the time we opened up this convention 
 to the present time, and I say for one 
 I am getting tired of it. Mr. Moors- 
 head pays 30 cents in Glen Carbon. "Tlje 
 only thing that- hurts him is that he 
 hasn't been paying 30 cents in Diver- 
 non. That is what is the matter with 
 him. It costs him just as much money 
 on a competitive basis in Divernon as 
 it does in Glen Carbon. Now he has 42 
 cents to pay at Divernon. W^hat does 
 it matter to him. whether he pays it 
 to me or pays it to Hefti, I can't see. 
 If I am running a machine I ought to 
 be compensated for running that ma- 
 chine. If Hefti is loading coal after 
 me he ought to be compensated for It, 
 but I ought not to make 10, 15 or 20 
 dollars a month more than he does 
 
266 
 
 Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 when he is Just as g-ood to run that 
 machine as I , am. I am getting sick 
 and tired of Mr. Moorshead getting up 
 here and throwing slurs at the men in 
 the thick seam^ 
 
 MR. HEFTT:— I want to say from 
 what little experience we have had in 
 the matter of adjusting the prices for 
 the different classes of labor in machine 
 mines, thalt it is only fair and reason- 
 able to expect that the rneni , em:ployed 
 ill those mines are best able to di\''ide 
 the mipn'Sy so that the loader, the run- 
 ner and the helper will receive what 
 they are justly entitled to. It was re- 
 marked here this evening that some 
 time ago the iol>erators of tour district 
 attempted to mterfei'e with the rate 
 that the miners were gwinig to estab- 
 lish for the various classes of labor. 
 The miners and operators meit that 
 proposition and after several days of 
 conference the operators left without 
 a settlement, and the miners went 
 home and settled it in their own way, 
 arid I believe the time has now come 
 when the opera.tors should lay this on 
 one stde and let the miners settle it. 
 F*r just as long as the operators will 
 take sides with the machine men, iust 
 so long we will have trouble where we 
 use machines to mine coal. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — Mr. Chairman, 
 where you have got 12 men against one, 
 the one man a.s a general proposition, 
 doesn't stand a very good show^. TliaA 
 is the case in the mines in that partln- 
 ular district. The miners are 12 to 
 one, and are unanimous in demanding 
 a reduction; the machine: men are 
 uilanimious in opposing it. They claim 
 they are not getting any more money 
 than they are ©n'titled tto, and I agree 
 with them. I have watched the matter 
 very closely as a matter of wages, and 
 the question of work and all that sort 
 of thing, and I think that rate is divid- 
 ed as fairly as it can be divided. I 
 would like to ask Mr. Cahill what the 
 division of that rate is at Girard. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Twelve cents, I be- 
 lieve. 
 
 MR. LUKBNS:— Twelve cents. Well 
 now, gentlemen, there is a town four 
 miles below^ us where the Ibaders get 
 five cents a ton less than they do at 
 our place. There is no kick there. 
 Everything is satisfactory. Those men 
 are working for five cents a ton less 
 than our loaders are. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — Is it wiorth more money 
 to load coal behind a chain machine 
 than it is behind a punching machine? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— No, sir. I think I 
 know a little something about the min- 
 ing business, and I want to say to you 
 that the superintendent of that mine 
 at Girard has been in our mine .and 
 says a man can load coal easier and 
 better after those chain machines than 
 he can after those punching miachiines. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Did the superintend- 
 ent of the Girard mine ever dig: any 
 coal in his lif^? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Nos but he has been 
 in a coal mine pretty near all his life. 
 
 and what he doesn't know about coal 
 there are mighty few want to under- 
 take to tell. Now, Mr. Cabin made a 
 cdrrtparison between him arid Mr. Hef ti 
 of one of them running machines aiid 
 the other loading coal. I want to say 
 to him that he shouldn't pick oiit fwo 
 of the best men In the mine. That 
 is ni(yt a fair proposition. He ought lo 
 pick some little fellow like Perry here, 
 or "Wallace. 
 
 MR. JACKSON:— There is no work 
 attached to it, only shift them around 
 with a crowbar. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Did you ever handle 
 one of these machines? 
 
 Mr. JACKSON:— I have seen them. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Handled by smaller 
 men than either Morris or Perry? 
 
 MR. WILSON:— Tes, I have. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — Now, gentlemen, we 
 have trouble enough in ooir sub-district 
 without bringing this thing In here. If 
 this were ever referred to ovu- sub-dis- 
 trict it woiuld get so htot that it would 
 scorch you people up there at Sprin?- 
 fleld. We claim that we have got some 
 rights in this matter. We claim that 
 that rate has been established for 
 years. There is no valid Objection to 
 it, and we claim now if the rate is 
 disturbed it will tie us up, disorganize 
 our force and cause us a loss of thou- 
 sands of dollars. Now we have teen 
 through that thing and we don't pro- 
 pose to go through it again. We have 
 got the matter organized in good shape 
 now and the men are all making money, 
 and we don't propose to allow that 
 thing to be thrown back into a condi- 
 tion there where no onle will make nny 
 money, either the miners, the machine 
 runners or ourselves. This is a case 
 where you should let well enough alone,, 
 and we claim that where a rate has 
 been as firmly established as that has 
 for as Ibng a time as that has, that it 
 is no more' right to interfere with it 
 than it is to interfere wih the machine- 
 man's differential. The operator will 
 oppose absolutely and to the last any 
 change in the machinie division in that 
 distrcit. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Lukens a question. Have the 
 miners offered to disturb it? Who- 
 brought It up here? 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — The operators 
 brought it up here, Mr. Rvan. You 
 heard what Mr. Delehanty said. Be- 
 fore I brought it up he told me what 
 the miners were going to do. Before I 
 left home thej^ came to me and told me 
 what they are g*oingto do. And I know 
 as well as I know that I am standing 
 on this floor, that if we go home with 
 that thing unsettled that we will have 
 the biggest kind of a row that was 
 ever had. Now, I don't want to get 
 into that kind of a condition. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think you aire bor- 
 rowing trouble. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Well, I know I am. 
 not. I know those men down there well 
 
Evening Session, March 9. 
 
 267 
 
 enougrh to know what we can ext>ect, 
 and I 'don't' propose to get Info it. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— Mr. President, 
 Mr. Liikens aigked me what the men 
 were going to do in regard to that be- 
 fore I told him, and then I told him. I 
 didn't go and tell him without being 
 asked ,to. 
 
 MR.Pi]RRT:— I only want to say 
 about three words. I didn't expect to 
 get my name mentioned in connection 
 with machine mining, but they men- 
 tioned my name, and J, iwould like to 
 tell Mr. Moorshead tliat I have run 
 electrical machines, never to a great 
 extent, but enough to know that the 
 superintendent that Mr. Lukens men- 
 tioned her?, -tyho said that it was as 
 easy to load after a chain machine as 
 after a punching machine, must have 
 been one of those superintendents I 
 was talking about in the scale com'- 
 mittee so much. If you will read over 
 the report of the scale committee's 
 prqceeldings, you will see what kind they 
 were. 
 
 (On Mr. Moorshead's substitute the 
 operators voted Aye, the miners No, 
 and it was lost). 
 
 (On the 22nd clause in the operators 
 proposed scale the operators voted 
 Aye, ■ the miners voted No, and it was 
 lost). 
 
 MR.' J. B. "WILSON:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I move to amend the 21st clause of the 
 present agreement by inserting after 
 the words, "The established' rates on 
 sheaMiig machines and air far elefctrio 
 drills as now ejtisting, (except at Dan- 
 ville, wHibh shall be referred to the 
 sub-district for settlement) shall re- 
 main unchanged during the ensuing 
 year." I move the adoption of the 
 Clause. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. RTAN:— Tour amendment is to 
 insert the words, "except at Danvilla, 
 which shall be referred to the sub-dis- 
 trifet for settlement?" 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Two years ago 
 we arbitrated the ratei on the machSne — 
 the division of machine rate. We could 
 not agree as to the rate that should be 
 established on the shearing machines. 
 As the result of that disagreement ' we 
 dffeX'ed to the operators a proposition 
 that the rate on the shearing machines 
 should be 50 cents per ton, 10 cents to 
 go to tl^e runner and 40 cents to the 
 . loader. 'That is on the narrow work. 
 That, price was to be maintained until 
 tlie first day of May. For the month of 
 April there was to be a record kept. 
 We were to keep those records and sub- 
 mit it to the board of arbitration, and 
 from the records we were to establish 
 a rate. We contended at that time as 
 we contend now, that 50 cents was not 
 a fair rate. We contended that the rate 
 as allowed for the shearing machine 
 did not carry wiith It an- equivalent of 
 the advance conceded at Indianapolis 
 rather. On that ground we demanded 
 that the machine question be arbitrat- 
 ed. Mr. Keefer very kindly kept those 
 machines from operating until sqjne- 
 
 time after the period set for this ad- 
 judication. He came in last year and 
 said that inasmuch as he had not had 
 those machines operating, that the time 
 having passed for the adjudication of 
 this rate, we had no option except the 
 50-cent rate. A year ago we contend- 
 ed that a rate that was open for arbi- 
 tration, that ,had never been settled by 
 a board of arbitration, was not a fixed 
 nor an established rate; it still re- 
 mained a tentative rate, and we sub- 
 mitted this section of the 21st clause to 
 President Mitchell and Commissioner 
 Justi to interpret. They interpreted 
 that clause that we would work. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- President Rus- 
 sell? 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— Yes, knd Com- 
 missiloner Justi and they Interpreted 
 the clause to mean that we should 
 work under this rate for the present 
 year; that it was a matter for state 
 settlement, and not a matter' for local 
 settlement. We are in the same posi- 
 tion now we are at that time, that 
 the 50-cent rate in Panville is not a 
 fair rate. We contended that the rate 
 should ^be changed. Mr. Keefer at that 
 time was ■operating' one machine 
 Some time during the last year hfe 
 operated, three of these; machines, and 
 we contended that that rate was open 
 for adjustment. We believe thalt the 
 rate fixed at 50 cents is not a fair rate, 
 and contend'' there should be mare paid. 
 We want the matter left open. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— We must give Mr. 
 Wilson credit for trying to state the 
 facts accurately, but we must take is- 
 sue with him if he should fail uninten- 
 tionally to do BO. A -year -ago last 
 spring in Danville in the sub-district 
 settlement we had some dispute as to 
 what constituted the relative advance 
 on shearing machJines as provided by 
 tbe Indianapolis agreement. We ' cal- 
 culated the rate on shearing machines 
 based on the rate that had been paid 
 prior to that time and upon all hand 
 work In entries. That calculation 
 placed the shearing machine rat© as 
 5(* cents per ton. Thei^e was still some 
 dispute upon the part of the miners 
 as toi whethler or not that was the 
 correct rate basfed upon this 20 per cent 
 advance granted at Indianapolis. That 
 dispute existing, a clause was inserted 
 that provided that if this rate was 
 unsatisfactory to either miner or ope!r- 
 atof it would be taken up and sub- , 
 mitted to aon Impartial' board of arbi- 
 tration prior to May 1st of that ytear. 
 It so happene'd at thait time that no 
 machines were operating in the Dan- 
 ville district. The cause is nl&ither here 
 nor there, but they were not operat- 
 ing, shearing or otherwise. Later in 
 the ye'ar, well on toward fall, we did 
 start a shearing machiwe or two, and 
 since that time we have been operating 
 one or two shearins: machines, occas- 
 ionally thre'e, largely for cutting our 
 horsebacks, and necessarily of course 
 cutting some coal. Last spring the 
 miners contended that they still had 
 
:263 
 
 Evening SiSssion, March 9. 
 
 a right to open up this rate for sh«ar- 
 dng machines under the proivlsion for 
 arbitration that extended up to May 
 Ust the year before. The operators 
 contended that the shearing machine 
 Tate was fix'ed at the preceding year 
 price in the same clause as the drill 
 -machines, and that Its rate was just 
 as much a fixture as that of any other 
 ■machine rate. The question was later 
 Tefetred to President Russell and Air. 
 Justi, whose decision, as I understand 
 It, sustained the contention of the 
 operators. ' 
 
 MR. WILSON:— "What the contention 
 ■was that was referred to, was what 
 was m'eant by the 'estaMished rate on 
 -shearing machines. That was referred 
 to President Russell and Mr. Justi. 
 They contended that inasmuch as this 
 clause had been Established at the state 
 ■convention, it was not within the 
 providence of the state district to take 
 It up and again open it up at this titne. 
 "We contended, however, there was. no 
 ruling made as to whether or not a 
 rate that was fixed in Danville subject 
 to arbitration became a fixed rate or 
 an established rate within the meaning 
 of this clause. "We contended then, as 
 we contend now, that a tentative rnte 
 or a rate that was made subject to 
 arbitration and which the machine men, 
 the loaders and helpers, were to take 
 an estimate of what th'ey had done 
 for a certain period, as long as that 
 was not carried out, that the rate was 
 certainly not established. Mr. Keefer 
 laid stress on the fact that thtere was 
 Tin demand made along that line. The 
 reason of that was he employed some 
 colored gentlemen down therie who em- 
 ployed certain others, and they jointly 
 vent to work and both dug coal with 
 th'e machine and loaded it. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— I deny that. I 
 never employed men since I have been 
 dealing with organized labor, who em- 
 ployed others. We don't deal in any 
 contract labor. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— Well, let us modify it 
 t)y saying they all worked it up togeth- 
 er. Mr., Keefer will agree with that 
 proposition. It was unprecedented in 
 the history of machine mines in Dan- 
 ville. The machine runners and help- 
 ers never did share equally with the 
 loaders, but in this particular instance 
 they did so, and the entire 50-cent rate 
 applied tO' both the, machine runner and 
 , to the loader, and was divided equally 
 with them. That was the reason there 
 was no contention made on it, and the 
 machine was never operated until some 
 time in that fall when the machine 
 should have been operating during the 
 month of April, and from that month's 
 operations we should have had a rec- 
 ord whereby we could have fixed an 
 established rate. It was never done, 
 and we contend that' 50 cents on the 
 shearing machine In Danville is not a 
 fair rate, and contend it now, and it 
 . is still open for adjudication. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:— I forgot to allude 
 
 to the fact tha;t Mr. WilSon has stated 
 definitely here that when the proposi- 
 tion was made, that the shearing ma- 
 chine rate might be arbitrated in ca?e 
 of any dissatlsfadtlion on either side 
 prior to the 1st of April, that records 
 were to be kept of the earnings of 
 the men. There is riot only noithing in 
 reference to arbitration concemlng this, 
 but there' was absolutely nothing in 
 the discussion. I want also •to say 
 that during April of last year or the 
 beginning of April 1st two years ago 
 we had not any machines In the Dan- 
 ville district. There was no Intention 
 of avoiding running the shearing ma- 
 chines so as Ito avoid taking (up tht- 
 matter of arbitration, but had wei to 
 desired there was nio reason why the 
 miners or operaJtors should not have 
 taken up the matter for adjustment. 
 We were dissatisfied wilth the rate, but 
 the matter was altogether too trivia; 
 toi take up and fight out for the sake 
 of four cents. We consider that, to be 
 true yet. W^e doti't consider that it is 
 worth while to gio and fight over that 
 old machine rate to get that four cents 
 even if we cOuld get it, because there 
 i.s so little ooal we dig that way. Mr. 
 Wilson said there was never such a 
 plant known in the Danville diistriot. 
 That woyild only involve the question 
 of the division of the rate of 50 cents 
 as to whether it was fair or mot. Put 
 I deny the statelment of Mr. Wilson, 
 since it has always been a faeJt that 
 all mining and shearing machines 
 have always and without question 
 loaded the coal out in the entry after 
 they have cut It. It has always been 
 the practice with us. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I don't believe you 
 can ge^t any loader in the Danville field 
 tc acknowledge that. You say that 
 at that time there were no machines 
 operating. I confess there were not, 
 but I also have giot to confess thai, 
 the operaJt'ors did raise a very large 
 howl when we attempted to say that 
 the loader should get all of the In- 
 dianapolis advance. As the result of 
 the contention! we met and formed in 
 Danville a board of arbitration. That 
 board of arbitration you, I believe, and 
 Mr. Lackey, of the NationaJ — and we 
 established a rate on the shearing ma- 
 chinel. 
 
 MR. KEEFER:- A point of order. 
 That has nothing to do with the entire 
 rate whatever, in the division of that 
 3H-cent raJte, and the subject under dis- 
 cussion now is the shearing rate. 
 
 MR. WILSON:— I must beg Mr. 
 Keefer" s pardon, because I was a mem- 
 ber of that board of arbitration and 
 know what I am talkins about. I 
 ■wanit to say that question was briought 
 up 'on a division of that and the en- 
 tire rate that would apply to the punch- 
 ing and shearing machines. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to say that 
 the objedt of making the amendment 
 is (this: The contention in the Danville 
 sub-di?trirt last year of Mr. Keefer 
 was that under the present agreemerst 
 
Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 269> 
 
 ■rtre could not take up and adjust the 
 shearing machine proiperly. Now, 
 while not agreeing' with Mr. Keefer 
 th'a.t the price is established In Dan- 
 ville for the shearing machine, I do 
 not think It is yet, but the question 
 is with us if this clause, were adopted 
 as lit reads here, it would simply throw 
 us back intto the district again a^ we 
 were last year, and possibly there 
 would be an argument there again. I 
 want toi say that I don't consider that 
 a price is established In the Danville 
 field for the shearing machine, from tb*! 
 fact that we have provided there for 
 two boards of arbltrati'on upon the 
 shearing machine, and neither of these 
 boards have ever assembled. I believe 
 that we went so far in one of our sub- 
 dls'trict agreements as to grovlide who 
 the fifth man should he. ; Once before 
 we provided and finally selected a man 
 as the' fifth man — I believe Stanley, a 
 druggist at Westville, and when we 
 met there for the purpose of taking 
 up the matter Mr. Stanley could not 
 be ■with us, and the matter died there. 
 He was called away somewhere, and 
 afterwards again we provided for an- 
 other board of arbltratlomi, and we se- 
 lected Vice President Lewis as the 
 fifth man, and the sub-distrlict agree- 
 ment of that vear will, show it. So 
 It went on from year to year and the 
 price was never an established price. 
 It is not an established price today. 
 That is our contention, and under the 
 agreement Mr. Keefer contended that it 
 ■was an established price last yelar un- 
 der the agreement. I decided with Mr. 
 Justl that it was, under the provisions 
 of that agreement, although I did not— 
 I never did consider that the price 
 was established because we had provid- 
 ed for two or three boards of arbitra- 
 tion to take this matter up and they 
 have never met and the rate of Ift.y 
 cents was a trial rate. 
 
 (On the amendment offered by .\5r. 
 Wilson the operators voted No, the 
 miners voted Aye, and it was lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion of Mr. jViit- 
 chell toi adopt 'the 21st clause In the 
 present agreement, the operators voted 
 No, the miners voted Aye, and it was 
 lost.) 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTE5E. 
 
 March 10, 1902. 
 
 The committee was. called to order at 
 .9:30 a. m. by Secretary Ryan. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN: — I was on a oommit- 
 tee ■with Mr. Zellers to report on that 
 lower bench in Jackson oounty. We 
 failed to come to any agreiemenft. The 
 miners have mad© a proposition to work 
 for 55 oents for the coming year, and 
 thien at that time to see ■what the result 
 ■vi-lould be and leave fthe matlter open 
 for discussion next scale meeting. I 
 took the p'ositlon that 53 cents was 
 sufficient pay on behalf of the op^jra- 
 tors, and they would be willing also to 
 open it up at the end of another year 
 
 for any future change. That is about 
 all the report that we have tio give. 
 We simply failed to agree. There is a. 
 difference of two cents bet^ween us. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I Wtove that the 
 report be received and the com'mittee 
 continued for, the present. (Seconded.) 
 MR. ZELLERS:— I don't see what 
 good it will serve to continue commit-i 
 tees. We have certainly gone over the 
 ground and discussed this question pro- 
 and con,, and I think all the eviidence 
 on both sides has been submitted. I 
 don't see htow any good can be brought 
 about by continuing the committee. I 
 feel free to say that I don't think any- 
 thing could be brought to bear on' fne 
 thaJt could change my views on this 
 matter, and I don't believe on the other 
 hand that anything could change Mr. 
 Duggan, and therefore I would rather 
 the sub-committee 'would take it ui> 
 and decide the questiton one way or the 
 other. \ 
 
 (The question was put and the mo- 
 tion carried.) 
 
 MR. KEEFER: — The spe(Jial commit- 
 tee which went out to report ion the- 
 16th clause or a substitute for it, re- 
 ports , as follows: 
 
 (a). "The scale of prices herein pro- 
 vided shall Include In ordinary condi- 
 tions 'the work required to load coal 
 and properly timber the working places^ 
 In the mine, and the operator shall be 
 required to furnish the necessary props- 
 and timber in rooms or working face. 
 And in long wall mines it shall include 
 the proper mining of the coal, and the- 
 brushing and care of the working 
 places and roadway according to the 
 present method, and rules relating- 
 thereto, wMcTi shall continue un- 
 changed. 
 
 (b). "If any miner shall fail to prop- 
 erly timber, shoot and care for his^ 
 working place, and such failure has en- 
 tailed falls of slate, rock and the like, 
 the miner whose fault has occasioned 
 such damage shall repair the sarne- 
 withtout . compensation, and If such 
 miner fails to repair such damage he 
 may be discharged. 
 
 "Any dispute that may arise as to 
 the res'ponslbility under this clause, 
 shall be adjusted by the pit committee- 
 and mine foreman;, and In case oif th<»ir 
 failure to agree shall be taken up for- 
 settlement under the 13th seotion rf 
 this agreement. 
 
 "In cases ■where the mine manager- 
 directs the placing of cross bars to- 
 permanently Secure the roadway, then, 
 and in such cases only the mlnelr shall 
 be paid at the current price for each 
 cross bar when properly set. 
 
 "inie above does not contemplate apy 
 change from the ordinary melthod of 
 timbering- by the miner for his own 
 safety." 
 
 The miners ask that this be m-ade ft. 
 matter of record: 
 
 "Th'e miners request It undersltood 
 that the operators are expected not to- 
 abuse the spirit or intent of this clause- 
 by unne'cessarily causing men to lose- 
 
270 
 
 Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 time when place's are wit of order." 
 That is to appear In the record, but 
 r^O't in the agreement. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move the adotvti'on cf 
 the report of the oomraititete on the 16th 
 clause. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I would like to 
 miake a few remarks Ito the miners' 
 delegates in this oommittee in regard 
 to thajt rel>ort. That report brooight 
 In here and was not what the miners 
 expected to gelt. It was riot whait they 
 w^anted, but under the oondltions they 
 thought it was the best they conild get, 
 and they dtid not want to have" the 
 16th clause be the cause of any friction 
 at the present time, between the min- 
 ers and operators, and as it had been 
 talked over in the committee, which Is 
 no't in the record, where ithe word "tor- 
 dinary" appears in that agreement it 
 would only be construed to be •witait 
 we term a majority — the conditions 
 which .would govern ithe majority at 
 the working places dn the mine. Thai 
 word "ordinary" there Will cover what 
 !« supposed to be the condltlioni of the 
 majority of the workStig places in the 
 mines, and I for one, while I didn't 
 get what I wanted, I want the com- 
 mdttee to see the miners' side, but to 
 adopt that report and to use all honor- 
 able means to have our convention 
 adopt the same when we gro back. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In considering Hie 
 report of the special committee, I ob- 
 serve tha;t ifl paragraph A of the 16th 
 clause, in referring to the long wad 
 mines, the report says, "And in long 
 wall mines it shall taclude the proper 
 miining of the coal and the brushing 
 and care of the working places and 
 roadways according to Ithe present 
 method and rules relating tlieireito,iWhlcih 
 shall dontinue unchanged." Nkjiw, if 
 this report is adopted just as it reads 
 it will prevent any further consiidera^ 
 tion of the scale or demands made by 
 the miners for some chansre In their 
 miethods or of 'taking care of roadways 
 and working places, and while I am 
 not sure that we will be able to agree 
 or changes, it seems to me that at 
 this timie the matter ought not be 
 closed up. I therefore move to amend 
 by striking out of paragraph A all af- 
 ter the word "rules" — strike out all 
 after "roadway" and insert "according 
 to the method and rules which shall 
 be agreed to in this contract, or any 
 sub-district or local contradt made in 
 pursuance thereof." 
 
 MR. BBNTi^Mr. Chairman, the 
 time has come to know where we a "e 
 at and do business, And it might as 
 well be said now as later that after 
 spending as much time as we did at 
 Indianapolis, and spending two weeks 
 faithfully here, ithe operators of the 
 third vein field or the Wilmington 
 field do not Intend to go back 
 to the sub-district meeting and dis- 
 cuss changes of rules adding to the 
 cost of coal. Mr. Mitchell lis right in 
 saying that we should not pass the 
 leth clause until we mean what we 
 
 say, and we are quite willing to defer 
 action on the conamlttee's report until 
 the other matter Is disposed of If that 
 i& the wish of this committee, but we 
 cannot enltertaln the amendmenit. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Chairman, 
 the question Involved is .not one that 
 affects the third vein field. The pas- 
 sage of the report of the committee 
 in Its entirety would not close the mat- 
 ter of prices in any field. The ques- 
 tion as to what the price for perform- 
 inig the work would bef would still re- 
 main open, but in the Wilmington, field 
 it does close up the only matter In con- 
 troversy. There is not a question of 
 price in controversy there, bult there ia 
 a question of conditions, and the adop- 
 tion of thei committee's report means 
 the oonltiniuance by the^ miners of the 
 care of all their roadways, the cleaning 
 of falls and everythinig Incidieiit thiereto. 
 
 MR, BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I un- 
 derstand the thing perfectly, just as Mr. 
 Mitchell does. I was not referring to a 
 question) of advance in the norlth^rn 
 field. That woujd be settled in a sep- 
 arate provision of this contract. I re- 
 fer to just what Mr. Mitchell refers to, 
 the chanke in the rules about the roads 
 ill the Wilmington field and the cross 
 roads in the third vein field. 
 
 (The o:perators voted No, the miners 
 Aye, 'a,nid the amendment was lost.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — Unless the miners ire 
 prepared Ito accet)t the report of the 
 committee, I mtove that action upon it 
 bo deferred. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I was going to 
 suggest, in order to close up as many 
 features of this scale as we can, thfit 
 we acoeiit che committee's reporc ex- 
 ( ept that portion of it relating to thie 
 long wall mines, deferrin;? action ution 
 the latter part of paragraph A. simply 
 setting the matter in controversy sep- 
 <i rated Irom those upon which we can 
 agree. AVe' can do that by deferring 
 action or striking from the report all 
 after "f ice" in paragraph A of the 13th 
 clause. I move to amend the motion 
 to makt; it read that action be deferred 
 fin that iiortlon Of paragraph A of the 
 16th clavise, which reads as follows 
 
 •'.4.nd in long wall mines it shall In- 
 clude the proper mining of the ooal 
 and the brushing and care of the work- 
 ing places and roadways according to 
 th»? present methods and rules relating 
 thereito, which shall continue unchang- 
 ed '■ (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:- Mr. Mitchell offers this 
 as an amendment to the motion to de- 
 fer ottered by Mr. Bent. Simply a 
 motion to amend so as to defer action 
 tnly on this part of the report. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The only purpose 
 in offering this mtotion is to try and 
 concentrate our entire efforts on the 
 matters that are in controversy, a.nd 
 prevent our discussion covering so wide 
 a range as it would if we were to defer 
 action on the enUre matter, because 
 if we do we are going to start and 
 pro overr the entire field a,gain. 
 
 MR. BENT:— In the judgment of the 
 
Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 271 
 
 operators there is noithlng to be gaiiiod 
 by postponing ^Jiy more, anything 
 which may be said about the rules a iid 
 conditions in thei long -wall mines. If 
 the last word has not been said on that 
 matter we believe it caji just as well 
 be said now beforei adopting the re- 
 por<t of the committee. There is no 
 icocasioni for discussing that part of 
 the committee's report on which there 
 is approval on both sides, and we ''V.ll 
 confine ourselves to the one issue made 
 if the gentlemen on the other side vri.l. 
 MR. (MITCHELL.:— I would Uke to 
 ask, Mr. Chairman, if Mr. BenJt under- 
 siands that the acceptance of the com- 
 mittee's report would fix his crops 
 road prices as they are at present? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Of course, the action 
 of this sub -committee fixes nothing. It 
 reports to the full scale ooimmittee 
 and the full scale commilbtee to the 
 convention, and when this clause is 
 ratifleid it cajxies the croBS roads with 
 ii, yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We cannot vote 
 for the committee's report if that is 
 the interpretation that the operators 
 put on It. There is one thing in con- 
 nection with this matter that I waxit 
 to call attention to. The report' of the 
 commaititee on the 16th clause modifies 
 every part otf it 'that affects any lOther 
 field except northern Illinois. All the 
 changes ithait the committee have made 
 in their report relate to and affect the 
 room and pillar mines. There is no 
 modification at all in the matters af- 
 fecting the long wall mines. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Chairman, the ap- 
 eratbrs from the thick veins of the 
 state consider that the change in the! 
 phraseology, while perhaps it elimin- 
 ates ambiguity, adds nothing to the 
 cost of their ooal, and Ithe operators 
 of the northern field dio not propose to 
 add to the cost of their ctoaJ either. 
 As far as the technical poSnt made by 
 Mr. Mitchell is concerned, regarding 
 the lamguiage or the effect of the lan- 
 guage, the rules in the room and pillar 
 mines in the state have passed thi;biugh 
 several dianiges during the past f«w 
 years, more changes through the fail- 
 ure to execi^te the spirit of the agree- 
 ment than changes in the wording of 
 the agreement, but various changes; a 
 revision. The rule's in northern Illinois 
 have stood xintouched for years and 
 years, through prosperous times and 
 through hard times, and are firmly es- 
 tablished. In the 'third vein field the 
 rule in regard to the cross roads has 
 stood for nineteen years, has seein about 
 fifteen peaceable settlements with or- 
 ganized labor as well as three tor four 
 confiiots— almost reached its majority. 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I would like to 
 ask the operators of the Danville field 
 A7hat is meant in there by the word 
 "ordinary?" Does it meian the ordinary 
 condition as it exists' in amy place, 
 the Qrdinarv condition of the mine, 
 cyr the ordinary condition of the dis- 
 trict? My reason for asking that ques- 
 tion Is this: If the change in the 
 
 phraseology here does not materially 
 Bffect the agreement, then I want to 
 say that vre are not intending to carry 
 back to that district another agree- 
 ment that is going to give rise to 
 the dontentSon of a year ago. If the 
 clause means that under ordinary con- 
 ditions of mining the mining price shall 
 carry with it, and the ordinary condi- 
 tion of that field is bad pradtically 
 precluding the right of any extraordin- 
 ary condition, then I can seei no gnod 
 resulting from the change. I for one 
 am certainly opposed to agaui. taking 
 back to that district a clause that 
 is suecepititole of as many construiotioins 
 as this 16th claxisel has been and is 
 likely tio be. I for one^ am oppolsed 
 to it unless it is distJlnctly qualified, 
 here so we will understand it and be 
 specific. 
 
 MR. DREWS:— Mr. Chairman, I be- 
 lieve the word "ordinary" was put in 
 there by our reiquest, and It was undr-r- 
 stood between myself and Mr. Keefer 
 that the( word "ordinajr" shtould mean 
 the average working places in the 
 mine. That is what it should mean. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 don't quite understand the explanatir/n 
 given by Mr. Drews toi be as we un- 
 derstand it. Perhaps it is a matter of 
 wording it with him. It will be a very 
 diflicult matiter in the district where 
 there is such an enormous variety of 
 conditions, a varleity of good conditions 
 and a variety of bad conditiions and a 
 ■variety of medium oonditiolns, tO' say 
 what place is an average place. A 
 place mighit in one sense be an average 
 place and justly carry wilth it extra 
 compensation for the miner. I know of 
 many places of that kind. Whsut I 
 would consldier would be an ordanary 
 place in our district, ig such a place 
 that a miner properly using powder 
 and caring for his place can make 
 good wages without unnecessary labor; 
 I would consider that an ordinary 
 place. On the other hand if the place 
 were 'the average height and average 
 strength of roof and through other 
 causes the miner is unable ttoi make 
 fair wages, notwithstanding that the 
 place might be an average place in 
 one sense of the' word, I should con- 
 sider the man would be entitled to ex- 
 tra compensation. It seems to me so 
 ea sy, if we wiant to be reasonable, when 
 we go into a place to work to decide 
 that a place is ordinary or not. It 
 ought nolt to be hard if the miner .and 
 the foretaian are fair, to decide that a 
 place is sufficiently good that a man 
 can make Ordinary wages in there. 
 
 MR. DREWS:- Did you not agree 
 with me, and did you not make the 
 statement in the oommi'ttee room, that 
 when a man had to put up five timbers 
 to the totheT man's two in the next 
 room to him, that he was entitled to 
 extra compensation, and that you had 
 already been paying it? . 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— ^'es, sir, I quite 
 readily agree with that. 
 MR. RYAN:— The question before the 
 
MORNING SESSION, MARCH iU. 
 
 committee at this tlm,e is the amend- 
 ment offered hy Mr. Mitchell to strike 
 out that portion of clause A or para- 
 graph A of the 16th clause, commenc- 
 ing with the words " and in long wall 
 mlines." Now, Mr. Bent takes the posi- 
 tion — at least he seems to tMnk that 
 everything has been said that ought 
 to he said in regard to that feature. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I didn't say that. T 
 said now is the time to say it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Well, I am somewhat 
 Inlterested in this phase of the clause 
 and I take the same position now that 
 1 have taken for a numiber of years, 
 and particularly the last year. WhUe 
 Mr., Bent contends that the condition 
 now lin vogue in the third vein has 
 been of about 19 years' duration, I cake 
 H that it is a different propositlofti en- 
 tirely in the Wllmlngtoni field. I can- 
 not see how the operators in the Wil- 
 mlngtwn field can comslstently ask the 
 miners in that field to do something 
 that the miners in the third vein field 
 are not asked Uy do. When th^ miner 
 in the third vein field takes his 26 or 
 24 Inches of brushing and places it in 
 the room according to the agreement 
 he has complied with all the rule's and 
 regulaUona in that field for which he 
 gets 76 cents a ton. I contend that 
 when a miner in the Wllmtngton field 
 brushes and builds his place and keeps 
 his road four feet high, he has done 
 all that the rules and regulations in 
 that field require him to do for 81 cents 
 8, ton, and he has no more right to so 
 back over the road and clean up a fall, 
 where his road is four feet high, than 
 has the miner in the third vein field 
 where he is only required to do ?i 
 inches of brushing, unless he is paid 
 extra for doing it; it is not Included 
 in the contract. It is a condition that 
 has been forced on the miners of that 
 field, and whether 'it is all said here 
 or somewhere else, I want to say to 
 this committee that the agitation will 
 never stop unltil we get rid of that 
 unnecessary (that is to the miners' un- 
 necessary), work in the Wilmington 
 field. It is most unjust, unreasonable 
 proposition that the miners have ever 
 had to meet with, and if It cannot be 
 settled here, if we cannot agree upon a 
 proposition of that kind, let it go back 
 to the miners and operators who are 
 directly intetested. There Is ndt any- 
 thing unfair, Mr. Bent, in the proposi- 
 tion submitted by Mr. Mitchell. Let it 
 gc- back to the men in case we get p.n 
 agreement on other prices and condi- 
 tions here', let it go back to the miners 
 and operators in the Wilmington field, 
 and we will fight it there. There is 
 the place where it oiught to be settled. 
 I don't believe there is a man in north- 
 ern Illinois that desires to take a posi- 
 tion in this committee that would tie 
 it up or keep the committee from reach- 
 ing an agreement in other parts of the 
 stajte. We don't want to do that. We 
 won't dot it if it Is possible to do other- 
 wise, but we do insist that we must 
 
 have some relief in the Wilmington 
 field from thtose unjttst conditions. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I am not from the 
 Wilmington field, and I very much re- 
 gret that Mr. Taylor, who has debated 
 this subject year after year. Is not 
 present. Mr. Buchanan is, and knows 
 about those rules. But taking it as a 
 broad proposition, the position of '.he 
 operators is that whateiver thS Wil- 
 mington rules are or have been, they 
 shall continue. There has been a little 
 discussion — I don't know whether jt is 
 In the record or not' — in regard to the 
 specific thing that Mr. Ryan speaks 
 of, as to whether thait is the rule or 
 not. Tha.t is a queetion of the in- 
 terpretation of the contract, and not a 
 question of the contract. In Mr. Tay- 
 lor's absence I personally am pledged, 
 and I believe the unanimous sentiment 
 of the operators is, that whatever tha/t 
 rule is it shall continue. We are mot in- 
 terpreting the agreement here. We are 
 neaflirming the agreement in the pr&cisc 
 terms in which it has been expressed 
 heretofore. We will not add to the 
 cost of the coal to the Wilmington 
 field, or change the rules under which 
 they work. I cannot speak to fhie point 
 that Mr. Ryan makes. I guess lit has 
 been discussed in the record. I heard 
 Mr. Taylor say that that was always, 
 the rule and a part of the work for 
 which you get the additional five cents 
 in the Wilmington field, 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I regret Mr. Tay- 
 lor is not here himself, because I be- 
 lieve that Mr. Taylor would recognize 
 the equity of this claimi. I would like 
 to call the attention of the operators 
 and miners representing the other dis- 
 trict of Illinois to the situation there 
 or to our disagreement as to what 
 those rules mean. Let us supi>ose that 
 in a room and pillar mine a fall came 
 'on a roadway. It might be fifty yards 
 back from the working place, that fill 
 might amount to two cars of rock ind 
 it might be a hundred cars of rock. 
 That has happened In the Wilmington 
 field. 
 
 MR. BENT:— A hundred cars? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I have seen the 
 entire thing cave In and close up to 
 the very surface. You have seen that 
 very thing, haven't you, Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I will get it In the 
 record. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— And if the inter- 
 pretation that has been placed on tlie 
 rules by the operators is the correct 
 one, then the miners must clean Al 
 of that rock up without extra com- 
 pensation, and while I believe that dur- 
 ing the past year or soi the operator.s^ 
 have voluntarily assisted men wh-Sn 
 there, was an entormous fall on their 
 roadway, still it has siimply been a 
 matter of their good will or their de- 
 sire to help the miners out. They 
 have never consented that under the 
 rules they were required to pay for that 
 work. Now, I contend that whenever 
 the miner keeps his roadway four feet 
 high from the rock and brushes his 
 
Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 273 
 
 1 oadway — ^the road and the face, builds 
 his room properly and timbers it, that 
 that is all ihat can be required under 
 the old rule. It is the only liberal and 
 fair Interpretation of those rules. But 
 because for many years there the men 
 had no organized power of resistance 
 they were compelled to g'o back r.i 
 nights soimetimes and clean that rook 
 without compensation. Now, I belie\'e 
 that as a matter of fairness and .ius- 
 tlce those rules should be interprritt d 
 to mean that w^here a fall comes on the 
 roadway, when the roadway is four 
 feet high, that that ought to be clean- 
 ed a't the expense of the company and 
 not at the expense 'of the miner. For 
 instance, a fall might come out of a 
 place where it was six feet high. That 
 is not an infrequent thing in that field. 
 Still the mliner goes and cleans that up. 
 1 don't believe it will be claJimed by Ihp 
 operator that the five cents a ton that 
 Is paid for keeping the roadway four 
 feet high in addition to wha't is paid 
 in the third vein field, compensates the 
 miner for cleaning the falls. In nearly 
 all cases a miner is required to go 
 back and brush his road to make it 
 four feet high. I don't think there is 
 a. roadway in the "Wilmington field 
 where you can drive a rdom from th'3 
 switch to 'thie time it closes that will 
 not settle down to be less than four 
 feet in height; which means thait th^. 
 miner for the five cents that he re- 
 ceives must go back over that and 
 brush it again, and in the long wall 
 mine you know that rock must be load- 
 ed up. In the riQom and pillar mine vou 
 can throw the roick on 'one side. You 
 can't do that in the long wall mine; 
 you have to send it up. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Let me correct 
 you there. Ton don't have to send if 
 up. It is packed in those abandoned 
 roadways. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— WTio packs it? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Part of it where 
 ix Is loaded by the miners is taken 
 away by the company. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:- It doesn't matter 
 whether you — 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Let me ask you 
 another question if I may. You say 
 that the miner has to go back over the 
 roadway and brush it again. , 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN: -Doesn't he 
 brush it as he goes along? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— He does as he 
 goes along, Mr. Buchanan, but it regu- 
 larly occurs that the roadway settles 
 or not less than four feet, by the time 
 in height. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I beg to correct 
 you in fhat, Mr. Mitchell, that he does- ' 
 r't brush it as he goes along. There 
 Is occasionally a piece of slalte that 
 comes down with the coal. As a rule jt 
 doesn't come down with the coal. The 
 brushing Is done afterward. Now to 
 those" who aj:e not familiar with long, 
 wall work — 
 
 MR? RYAN:— Are you, Mr. Buchan- 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Yes, I am. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You are entirely 
 in error there.- Let me caJl your atten- 
 tion. I think probably we mean entire- 
 1;' different things. When the miner 
 takes out his coal in a long wall mine, 
 he does his brushing to put In his 
 buildings. He takes the ooal out first, 
 and he brushes up to within three or 
 four feet or sometimes two feet of the 
 working face. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— On the road- 
 way? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— On the roadway, 
 t)0' put in his buildings. Then, unless 
 he takes five or six feet of brushing 
 or not less than four feet, by the time 
 he has driven his room up forty yards 
 or fifty yards, the paint of the roadway 
 that is furthest back vwill settle and 
 will come down until it is less than 
 four feet from the railroad. Under 
 the rules which ■we recognize the miner 
 has got to go back and re-brush that, 
 making it four f eef high. I ^vant t*> say 
 in my own experience that I have 
 worked in rooms in the Wilmington 
 field where it was driven up 75 yards, 
 and I wanted to quit the room, in- 
 tending to quit the mine, and the mine 
 foreman has come along with a four- 
 foot mining stick, and has placed that 
 on the rails all the 'way from the 
 switch to the face, and in places that 
 stick would not stand erect, and I 
 was required to go back and brush it 
 before I could draw my time, and un- 
 der your present rules you could re- 
 quire that now.. You must keep- those 
 roofs four feet fr'om the rail if the 
 company desires to have it so. I don't 
 mean to say they all require It to be 
 four feet high. It depends on the size 
 of the mule that 'is hauling coal tOi the 
 face. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Buchanan if the miner does not brush 
 his coal as he goes along, whast does 
 he build his room wi'th? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Oh, I misunder- 
 stood Mr. Mitchell. I was talking from 
 one point of view and he from another. 
 
 MR, RYAN:— I thought sOi. Now 
 somebody asked when Mr. Mitchell was 
 making a, statement — or rather won- 
 dered aJt the one hundred cars of rock 
 idea, the possibility 'of there being a 
 hundred cars of rock in one fall. I 
 want to say it happens frequently. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I dispute that 
 statement, Mr. Ryan. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I had the pleasure of 
 going up against it, Mr. Buchanan, 
 whether you dispute it or not, w^here 
 the fall came, and closed the room and 
 the grass roots oamie in, and a hundred 
 cars wouldn't have cleaned the fall nor 
 a thousand cars would not have clean- 
 ed it, and I had the option of leaving 
 what money I had in the office with 
 the company, or turning ano>ther room 
 at my own expense. I chose the liatter 
 because there was more money in the 
 office than what it would cost to turn 
 a room. 
 
Z74 
 
 Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— How long ago, 
 Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I hasn't been a couple 
 of years. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,:— During this year 
 we had a case of this kind carried up 
 tc Mr. Justl and myself from Mr. Bu- 
 chanan's mine. A coimmittee of the 
 miners came to Chicago and the matter 
 was taken up. Mr. Campbell, I believe. 
 was the name of the mine manager 
 who came there. Mr. Buchanan was 
 there himself and 'heard the case from 
 beginning to end. It was a case where 
 the miners claimed Ithat tw'o lengths 
 of ralil back on the road the roadway 
 was five feet high, and the fall came 
 upon it, and they were compelleid to go 
 back and clean up the fall; they had 
 asked for extra compensation for this 
 work, and it had been refused them. 
 The matter was carried along (the regu- 
 lar lines, and finally landed before the 
 operators' coJtnmlssloner and myself. I 
 was arguing from "the 16th clause, and 
 using the word "extraordinary" and 
 contending that this was an extraor- 
 dinary condition, and thait under the 
 16th clause these men were entitled to 
 compensation, when Mr. Campbell, +he 
 mine manager, said to me, "Mr. Rus- 
 sell, you don't understand this. Under 
 the rul^s of that field, If, after the 
 miner had made his roadwa.y four feet 
 high It falls to the grass roots, t^e 
 miner must clean up the rock without 
 extra oompensaJtlon." I wish to say 
 that It rath;er knocked me silly, that 
 S'batement, but I turned to 'the com- 
 mittee of miners, and I asked Ithem If 
 such was the case and if this was the 
 rule or always had been the rule un- 
 der which they were working, and those 
 miners w^ere honest enough and said 
 right there that such was the case, and 
 the result was thalt those miners re- 
 ceived n'o compensation for the work 
 they had performed. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Mr. Russell, that is all 
 right, but I think it ooight to have a 
 slight qualification. I want to say here 
 that I have signed individual contracts 
 ill that field for over twenty years, the 
 length of time that I have mined coal 
 ii; the Wilmlng'ton field. Mr. Sml'ih 
 is here who has probably signed these 
 contracts for a longer period and I 
 want to ask any operator from l\e 
 "Wilmington field present If there Is any 
 such a Stipulation in any of those con- 
 tracts that outlined the rules specifi- 
 cally under which we worked that the 
 miners should clean the falls of rock 
 oi if there ever was such a stipulation 
 in one of those contracts. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN: — It reads the 
 keeping of their roadway four feet 
 high. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Isi 'there anything In 
 any of these contracts thirty years 
 back that says a miner shall clean a 
 fall where the road is over four feet 
 Wish? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— What Is meant 
 by the term "keeping?" How long is 
 
 he expected to look after the condition 
 of that road, Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— While he works in the 
 room, keep it four feet high. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN: — Very true. 
 Which carries with it the Idea that he 
 Is to keep that roadway clear to en- 
 able the cars to go through it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Four feet high, yes. 
 Is there anything In the agreement or 
 oonltract or ruleb or regulations that 
 says he has got to /Jo any more for 
 the price per ton stipulated therein than 
 to keep 'Bhe road four feet hlgli and 
 properly mine his coal and build the 
 place. Is there anything In It? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— SpeclflcaJly, no 
 However, -yovL cannot keep the roadway 
 clear so that a car can go through it 
 without cleaning up everything that 
 Impedes the progress of the car. Now, 
 during the time that he Is In the 
 road he must keen his rock at least 
 four feet high. Many times voluntarily 
 he keeps it higher. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Your own admission, 
 Mr. Buchanan, is all we want. It Is 
 not in the agreement, not In the con- 
 tract, never was. It has been sSmply 
 a condition that has been forced upon 
 these mien. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— It Is not so, Mr. 
 Ryan. I dispute it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I think Mr. Ryan will 
 agree with me that we are not here 
 interpreting the agreement or defining 
 what the rules in the Wilmington field 
 are, but are saying thaJt the rules 
 shall continue. That much we can un 
 derstand each other about, regardless 
 of this controversy and regardless of 
 Mr. Taylor's absence. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Will you agree to let 
 the matter go back to the sub-dlstfict 
 subject to our Interpretation; that is, 
 the interpretation of the joint meeting. 
 Have we any right to take this matter 
 up In the sub-dl&trlct for Interpretation 
 and a change under that Interpretation 
 it we vote for this report? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Why, Mr. Chairman, 
 you have no right to go back there 
 and change the rules under which you 
 are working. I don't understand that 
 the question of what the rules are Is 
 debarred from being discussed any day 
 Of the year with our commission or 
 otherwise. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Very well then, Mr. 
 Bent, defer action on that part of it 
 until we understand just what the rules 
 are. Mr. Mitchell's motion to defer 
 action on that part of It then accorl- 
 ing to your statement, Is a perfectly 
 fair proposition. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Apparently, Mr. Chair- 
 man, you cannot determine here what 
 the rules are. The language tof the 
 contract, the perpetuajtlon of the pres- 
 ent rules, is the operators' position. 
 That was Mr. Taylor's position, the 
 last word he said when he went away, 
 and that is the position which we ac- 
 cepted and said we would adhere to, 
 and I don't understand that that 1s 
 
Morning Session, March 10. 
 
 275 
 
 passing upon the question of what the 
 rule Is or is not, but that the rule 
 continues. 
 
 (On the motion to defer the 'opera- 
 tors voited No, the mSners voted Aye, 
 and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. RTAN:— The motion before the 
 committee now is to defer action on the 
 report of the committee on the 16th 
 clause. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that the; 
 entire matter under discussion be re- 
 ferred back to the sub-dlStrlct for ad- 
 justment. (Seconded by Mr. J. F. 
 Morris.) 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 -voted Aye, and the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. KERFER:— The idea of the op- 
 erators is that we have spent as much 
 time as we really ought to on the sub 
 ject now. There are other maJtters to 
 be taken up, and possibly we can reach 
 a decision further on. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and Mr. Bent's mo'fcion to 
 defeY action was carried.) 
 
 MR. HULL:— I have a report of the 
 committee to which was referred the 
 matter contained in the 17th clause of 
 the present agrreement. The committee 
 recommended as follows: 
 
 "17th. The operators Will recognize 
 the pit committee in the discharge of 
 its duties as herein specified, but not 
 •otherwise, and agree to check off union 
 dues, assessments and fines from the 
 miners and mine laborers, when de- 
 sired, on proper individual or ftollectlive 
 continuous order, and furn'ish tO' the 
 miners' representative a statement 
 sliowlng separately the total amount 
 of dues, assessments and fines collec',.- 
 ed. When such collections are made 
 card days shall be abolished. In fa e 
 any fine is imposed the propriety of 
 which is questioned, the amount of 
 such fine shall be withheld by the oper- 
 ator until the question has been taken 
 up for adjustment and a decision has 
 been reached." 
 
 That is our unanimous reDOrt, and 
 I move its adoption. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I would like to 
 ask if the report of that committee de- 
 prives the pit committee from the right 
 'Of enforcing the state mining law? 
 
 MR. RTAN: — No, sir, it does not. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the report was 
 adopted.) 
 
 MR. SECOR: — The committee ap- 
 pointed on the 20th clause has to re- 
 port a disagreement. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 know what the operators want in this 
 clause more than they have, nO'W, and 
 why they want it? 
 
 MR. SECOR: — The operators, Mr. 
 MitOhell will accept the 20th clause. 
 MR. MITCIJELL:— As it is now? 
 MR. SECOR:— As it, is now, yes, fcir. 
 MR. BENT: — I move the adoption of 
 the 20th clause of the present contract. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— For my part I iouit 
 propose to- undertake to try to rule a 
 
 whole convention nor a whole co'mmlt- 
 te^', but of all th'S useless things 
 that we have ever • Incorporated 
 into an agreemienit 'that| is 'tihe 
 most useless. I don't miean to say 
 an unjust thing, I say a useless 
 thing. It has done no good to the 
 operators; it has been a curse to the 
 mfivement. You have tried to discharge 
 men, and what was the consequence? 
 They simply came up and sadd t>iey 
 had been sick, and we have had to go 
 and fight their case, costing our organi- 
 zation hundreds of dollars and .you 
 jour time and us our time. It is no 
 good, and unless you incorporate into 
 tiiiat agreement that a man shall notify 
 you when he is sick, why the thing 
 is no good. It is only a trouble breeder. 
 That is why I kick against It, and 1 
 will not vote for a man being compelled 
 to notify you that he is sick unless 
 you will agree to give him his work 
 back again, and that Is something your 
 committee refuses to do, and I refuse 
 to say he shall notify you then. 
 
 MR. BENT:— ^'"e agree with Mr, 
 Perry that the clause would be more 
 effective if it required niotice when a 
 man whs sick, and we would cheerfully 
 support an amendment of that kind, 
 on account of an attempt so'metimefe to 
 I show that a man is sick when he Isn't 
 sick except from "pay day fever;" but 
 we wish this clause passed just as It.is 
 now unless a clause of that kind is 
 added to make it more easily enforced. 
 (The oi>eratOTS voted Aye, the miners 
 ^■'Oted Aye and the 20th clause gf the 
 present agreement was adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the 25th clause of the present agree- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Mr. Chairman, I would 
 say that when all the committees were 
 called off we suspended work on that, 
 but on speaking to a delegate this 
 morning he concurs with me in the 'ir!- 
 vusability of sending it back to the 
 sub-district for adjustment. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire toi say for the 
 benefit of the committee that the dele- 
 gate also remarked to President Rus- 
 sell and myself and some of the other 
 delegates this morning that he Nvas 
 called homie on account of the serious 
 sickness of his sister. It is perfectly 
 satisfactory to him, and he had so 
 agreed with Mr. Cutts, to refer this 
 matter back. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the mln?rs 
 voted Aye, and the 25th clause, of the 
 present agreement was adopted.) 
 
 (On motion of Mr. Bent, duly «ec- 
 ' onded, the 27th clause of the present 
 agreement was adopted.) 
 
 (The 28th section of the present agree- 
 ment was read.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the 27th paragraph of the operators' 
 proposed scale as a substitute for the 
 28th clause of the present agreement. 
 The first clause is the same as the 
 present 28th paragraph, to wh^ch we 
 have added a clause, as follows: 
 "In mines where there is both hand 
 
276 
 
 Morning Session, March 10 
 
 and machine mining, 'an equal turn' 
 shall mean appi'oxiimately the same 
 turn tO' each man in Ithe machine part 
 of the mine, and approximately the 
 same turn to each man doing hand 
 ■work; but not necessarily the same to 
 each hand miner as to each man work- 
 ing with the machines." 
 
 I wish to staJte In the record that that 
 means an equal opportunity in wage- 
 earning- power to both classes of men 
 in the mine; no advantage toi either. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It means, if I under- 
 stand it, Mri Bent, that 5f ithe operator 
 sees fit he oould g^ive a man in the ma- 
 chine part of the mine two or three 
 cars a day more than those in the 
 hand portion of the mine, or vice versa, 
 at his option. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It means, Mr. Chair- 
 man, the giving of the machine men 
 enough more oars to make their earning 
 power equal to that of the pick men. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Not to give them any 
 more ? 
 
 MR. BENT:— No, sir; no more earn- 
 ing power. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I would like to 
 ask what operator raises the contention 
 here? I think the lasit year's clause 
 would cover that, where he would have 
 an equal turn. 
 
 ' MR. BENT:— The trouble is "equal 
 turn" has been interpreted to mean an 
 equal number of cars, while in a mine 
 where the pick rate is 49 cents, the 
 machine rate would be 42 cents, and tne 
 same number of cars at 42 cents would 
 make the earning power of the mach'ine 
 man less than that of a pick man in 
 the same mine. It does not mean an 
 extra turn a day for the machine, as 
 was asked the other day. It means 
 equal earning power. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Last year's, agree- 
 ment says that he shall have a fair 
 chance to obtain the same. Now if 
 you don't give them the same chance 
 tC' dO' the same amount of work he 
 hasn't a fair chance. 
 
 MR. BENT: — No, siir, not a fair 
 chance to earn wages, but a fair chance 
 to get an even number of cars. That 
 is unfair. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 contend tha;t that agreement covered 
 it last year. The miachine men down 
 in my district get twelve cars against 
 men working with the pick gettin.i^ 
 eight. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye and the 
 miners voted Aye, President Russell 
 announcing that they did so in view of 
 Mr. Bent's explanation of what this 
 clause actually meant; the clause was 
 declared adopted.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move the adoption of 
 the nth clause of the operators' scale, 
 which is the Columbus inside day wage 
 scale, with twenty per cent added, 
 neither more nor less. (Seconded by 
 Mr. Garrison.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I desire to call the at- 
 tention of the committee to a contro- 
 versy that took place when this mat- 
 tei" came up before. I would like to 
 
 know what has become of the maitter 
 that was referred to this committee to 
 take this clause up? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS: -There was a 
 committee appointed on thait, I think, 
 some time last week. We met and 
 disagreed and reported here, and aJi 
 committees were called off after that. 
 We were again appointed yesterday, 
 and as yet we have had no meeting. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Will this committee 
 report as quickly as possible? I thinlc 
 we had better defer action, Mr. Bent, 
 until this committee makes a report. 
 
 (The proceedings of the committee 
 were then suspended while the commit- 
 tee on the nth clause conferred.) 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 co'mmlittee on the day-wage scale has 
 agreed to recommend the re-enactment 
 of the piresent 11th clause. I think Mr. 
 Reynolds would like to make a state- 
 ment as a matter of record in conniec- 
 tioo with lit. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS: — W^e have no 
 S'taitement to make. The operatoirs- 
 raised sorne otojection to the latter par^t 
 of the 11th clause. We told thetn it 
 juist simply meant wihat It said, that 
 nobody should drive for less than $2.10 
 a day. With that understanding we are 
 ready to vote for it. We agree with 
 them in reoom.mending ithe 11th clause. 
 I move that it be adopted. (Seconded 
 and adopted!.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask 
 some miember of the co^mmlttee wiiat. 
 is tO' be done with the additional un- 
 derground labor for which the miners- 
 have presenited a scale? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Has the committee 
 that was sent out by the miners any re- 
 port to make on the different grades 
 of inside day-labor that was in our 
 scale ? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— We were not able 
 toi agree on a price for tlie classes of 
 labor outside of the Coiumibus agree- 
 ment. That maJtter ie left, so far as 
 we are ooncemed, as it was before. It 
 can be taken up at home if there is any 
 dissatisfaction, and adjusted there. Is 
 tlhat your understanding of It? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, we sim- 
 ply wish to state that our position Is 
 the sajme as it was last year. 
 
 MR. DE:LEHANTY:— Now, from the 
 underground day scale we want a scale 
 made for these men that there is no 
 scale for at present. There are men 
 on this inside day scale or inside work 
 that there is no scale for, and we must, 
 if possible, make a scale for these men, 
 such as motormen and machine labor- 
 ers, switch throwers and linemen. 
 There is no scale for these men down 
 there in the fourth district, and they 
 Insiist that there be a scaJe made for it 
 at -this convention. We insist that a 
 scale be fixed right here for it if possi- 
 ble. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move that the 
 rules be suspended and that the com- 
 mittee now adjourn until 1:30 p. m.. In. 
 order that the miners may hold a meet- 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March )0. 
 
 277 
 
 3ng here themselves. (Seconded and 
 adopted.) 
 
 SUB-SCALE ' COMMITTEE, 
 Peoria, 111., March 10th, 1902. 
 
 The oo'mmitteie was caJled to order by 
 Chairman Ryan at 1:30 pi. m. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: — I moive the adop- 
 tion of the 24th clause of the present 
 agreiement with' th'e record presented 
 last night, with the understanding that 
 the Inside day-wage scale shall be no 
 less than $2.10 for ^igfht hours' work 
 for stable bosses, and noi less than Sil.RO 
 i£ the mules are kept on top-. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — Down until two years 
 ag-o thie drivers harnessed 'and unhar- 
 n'essed 'tlheir own mules in the third - 
 vein field. At the sub-diSfcrict meeting 
 at that time the miners very much, de- 
 s'ired to have the company do this. 
 After long deliberatSoin, and the ap- 
 po'lntmen't of different special ooimmiit- 
 tees, a plan was finally arrived at un- 
 der wihich the cJompanies oould under- 
 take to do thait, which was that the 
 stable men should have no scale of 
 wages made for them and should work 
 such hours as was necessary tO' enable 
 the company to do the harnessing and ■ 
 unharnessiing of the mules. In other 
 •words, be in the mane when the dr^ivers 
 quit work in the afternoon, and be in 
 the mine before they went to work In 
 the moiming. We were given that nian 
 as a condition for grantting the harness- 
 ing and unhiamessiing of the mules. A 
 year ago 'in staJte convention the miners 
 proposed to take the harnessing and 
 unharnessing of the mules off the driv- 
 ers. After wrestling with the problem 
 for a good while, finding that condl- 
 tiO'ns varied and could not very well 
 T>e harmonized, it was proposed that 
 the method In vogue in the mines in re- 
 gard to tihe harnessing and unham.ess- 
 ing of mules should continue in differ- 
 ent districts as then exislting. The mat- 
 ter that I have Just spoken of was ex- 
 plained, and we said that before we 
 could vote for that it would be neces- 
 sary to 'include the feeding and cari.ig 
 for the mules; that thait should go with 
 the harnessing and unharnessing then 
 existing. That was embodied in the 
 resolution and became part of the ex- 
 isting contract under which we work. 
 I understand that we are willing to 
 adopt this provision just as you are, 
 hut we don't see how we can agree to 
 the harnessing and unharnessing of the 
 mules in the districit referred to, if you 
 Will remove' from it the condition that 
 enabled us tO' make that agreement in 
 the first place. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What is that condition 
 you allude to? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The condition was that 
 If we would harness and unharness the 
 mules ourselves outside of the working 
 time, that we should be given the 
 stable man without any scale or fixed 
 hours of labor, sO' that we could use 
 
 him in our own way to perform this 
 work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— And work him more 
 than eight hours? 
 
 MR. BEN'T:^If we chose, yes, fir. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— And you did. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I think" the situation 
 varies. In a great many mines, no, 1 
 don't know whether any mines yes, or 
 not. The man Is paid by thfl month. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Bent, not inter- 
 rupting your discourse, W'= take the 
 position, speaking for the miners, that 
 a mule feeder taking care of mules 
 where they ;ire kept undt^'ground, is 
 an underground employe. It the mules 
 are brougiht out on the surface every 
 e\'ening and back every morning, the 
 man who feeds and takes care of them 
 on top in the bam is an outside em- 
 ploye. AV\e s;^^ply a?k thai where a 
 mule feeder works underground, that 
 he get the $2.10 that the scale gives 
 him, and where he works overground, 
 that he shall not get less than .M.80 as 
 provided in the scale. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Chairman, we are 
 quite willing to pay our stable man 
 $2.10 per day, by itself considered. The 
 question is simply whether that trade 
 shall be continued or discontinued. We 
 have never consented tO' harneiss and 
 unharness the mules in our district ex- 
 cept on that condition, and the 'harness- 
 ing and unharnessing of the mules is 
 not established in eivery district of the 
 state; is not uniform. We are willing 
 to go back to the way we were doing 
 before and give you the stable man at 
 the scale rate, but you can't bring 
 about a compromise with a concession 
 on thte part of each, and then remove 
 the concession on your part and hold 
 us to the concession we made in re- 
 turn for that. That is the only thing. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It doesn't matter 
 what were the conditions under which 
 this agreement was reached at Streator. 
 It was a violation of the state agre'e- 
 monlt, as you have no right to go to a 
 sub-district and agree that men shall 
 work for less than the minimum wage 
 provided for in our wage scale. Now, if 
 you have secured the right to employ 
 stable men who will work for less than 
 $2.10, thaJt was done' in violation of both 
 the leitter and the spirit of the state 
 agreement, and as far as taking some- 
 thing O'ff the driver, some work off the 
 driver in consideration of being given 
 this concession, that was entirely un- 
 necessary. I am surprised at the drivers 
 harnessing the mules at all. NO' one 
 w'ill contend that harnessing a mule 
 is not work. It requires both tim.e and 
 effort, and the national agreement only 
 requires that the drivers shall take 
 their mules from the stable, or their 
 work will begin at the place theiy re- 
 ceive their cars, and there is nothing 
 in the original national agreement that 
 requires the driver to harness the mules 
 and unhamiess them, to say nothing 
 of feeding after you bring them to the 
 stable. I don't think this should re- 
 quire any time at all. The stable man 
 
278 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 10. 
 
 is erxti'tl-ed to not less than, $2.10 a day. 
 Thie drivers are etnitltled to the regiilar 
 pay from the time that thiey take their 
 mules until they return them to the 
 stable, and there in nothing in the 
 agreement that requires them to har- 
 ness and unlharness mules. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:—! made a state- 
 ment lasit might when Mr. Bent was 
 not present that I oowtended ttoisi was 
 a grievance at our last meteting' In 
 Springfield. The agreement says: "The 
 methods at present existing covering 
 the harnessing, unharnessing, feeding 
 and caring for mules shall be oontlmied 
 throughout the scale year beginning 
 April 1, 1901; but in cases w:heira any 
 grievances exist in respect to the same 
 they shall be referred to the sub-dis- 
 trict meeting for adjustmeinlt." I oon- 
 tended. it became a grievance at our 
 last mieeting alt Springfield, at our state 
 meeting, ajid it should have been taken 
 up at the sub-ddstrict meeting and 
 adjusted. There was a grievance at 
 that time, and Mr. B'ent goes on record 
 there by sitatinig he did not want to 
 violate any part of the Columbus agree- 
 ment. I coailtemded last night, when he 
 was not present, that theiie had been 
 a violation of that agreement up there 
 in not paying the underground day 
 labor less than J2.10. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Mitohell will bear 
 with mie If I assume 'tlKut there are 
 two sides to this question. Thei action 
 of the sub-district convention two years 
 ago was simply a part of the history 
 explaining under what circumstances 
 we assumed harnessing and unharness- 
 ing of the mules. We rest this case on 
 equity, on what occurreHi in the state 
 convention here less than a year ago, 
 when in order to continue 'the harness- 
 ing and unharnessing of the mules at 
 our district at least, the feieding and 
 caring for the mules was incorporated 
 in the clause. The record will show 
 that just what was being done up 
 there was explained at the time, and 
 we asked to: have 'that incorporated 
 before we voted for the resolution. 
 Thiere^ was no misunderstanding a year 
 ago aboult that, so that when they 
 didn't understand it that way in sub^ 
 districts and it went up on appeal it 
 was so decided. The record is clear. 
 Now, as far as the propriiety of the 
 drivers harnessing and unhamiessing 
 muiles is aoncerned, the record shows, 
 and ithis vetry clause of the contract 
 shows, that in some districts of the 
 state the drivers doi harness and un- 
 harness the muleB outside of the eight 
 hours. AVe are willing to change the 
 eixisting condition in our field. We 
 are willing to discontinue the harnesB- 
 ing and unharnessing of the mules and 
 give you 'that man, but we do say that 
 to seek to change one of those two 
 conditions and not the other violates 
 the understanding under which that 
 arrangenient exists in) our field. I 
 wo'uid llkel tO' ask a quesition here just 
 for Information: How do 'they dO' In 
 districts where the company harnesses 
 
 and unharnesses the mules, and the 
 stable man is paid by the day, how 
 do they manage to have them un'hor- 
 nessed at night and harnessed m the 
 morning when the gap is more than 
 eight hours? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- That question can 
 be se'ttled. You can g'ive your stable 
 man more than two hours aJt noon if 
 necessary. ^ , ^. 
 
 MR. BBaSTT:- Lay him off in the 
 middle of the day for more than an 
 hour you mean? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Certainly. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Is that done? 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- It is done in some 
 instances. I was just talking to Mr. 
 Perry. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Thait custom has been 
 in vogue In the state of Illinois for 
 twenty-five years or more that I know 
 of. I have known stablemen who did 
 their work und'ergroim.d to be at the 
 mine learly enough in the morning to 
 feed and harness and take care of the 
 miiles, and gelt them, ready for the 
 drivers. When the drivers came in 
 time to start at seven they took their 
 mules out and the stable man came 
 home. He came home, and he went 
 back whenever the miners quit v^ork. 
 We hadi a ten-hour day then, but there 
 is no reason why It shouldn't be done 
 now. Whenever the men quit half a 
 day he cajn© at noon and finished his 
 work. If it was all day he came back 
 in the evening. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I was just going to 
 suggest that this be referredi to a 
 special committeie of two operators and 
 two miners. (Seconded and carried.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I would like to moke 
 just one s^tatement before It is referred, 
 for the benefit of Mr. Ben,t, and to an- 
 swer the question he stalted a moment 
 ago. There is no dlsposiion upon our 
 part to try to get conditions, and force 
 the operator tO' hire another man or to 
 work more than eight hours the men 
 they have already got. The method 
 last year and the year before in a great 
 many mines, and I believe in the mine 
 in which I worked, was that the mule 
 feeder came down in the morning some- 
 where about six o'clock I believe, and 
 fed and harnessed the mules. He 
 would go home possibly at half post 
 nine; after the mules had been taicem 
 out of the stable he would dean the 
 stable out and go home. He would 
 stay a't home until possibly two o'clock, 
 then come down, get the feied in and 
 be ready to unharness the mules when 
 they came in, thereby putting in a day 
 only. I believe they worked nine hours, 
 if I am not mistakeii, but anyhow they 
 divided the day that way, so his time 
 would be before starting time and after 
 quitting time. We have no desire to 
 change that; all we want is $2.10 for 
 eight hours' work, and we are willing 
 whatever method has been used in any 
 mine in our district shall sitiU be in 
 vogue at the option of the, operator. 
 We have no objection to that. 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 10. 
 
 279 
 
 (On motion of Mr. Bent, duly sec- 
 ondieQi, the vote 'was reconisldered.) 
 
 MR. BHNT:— ]Slr. Chairman, I am In- 
 formed by the miners' officdaJs thait 
 the third vein field is the only dis- 
 trict In the state where the company 
 has claimed' the eatable man is outsldie 
 of its jurisdiction and not on the eighlt- 
 hour basis, and not governed by the 
 $2.10 rettuirement. Mr. Ryan's and Mr. 
 Perry's statements that we are at 
 liberty to divide the eight-hour shift 
 in such a way as to have tihe man In 
 thei mine both in the afternoon and 
 in the mioming meet the neied that 
 caiused us to make thait arrangeimient 
 in the suib-distrlct, which never before 
 was stated to us, and if Mr. Jeremiah 
 Will move simply the adoption of last 
 year's agreement we will state in the 
 record thaJt on that understanding of 
 Mr. Perry's we will pay our stable mam 
 $2.10 pier day, subject to yorur jurls'- 
 diotion and on the eigtit-hour basis. 
 
 MR. JEREIMIAH:— I make a motion 
 that we adopt the 24th clausei of the 
 present agreement. (Seoomded by Mr. 
 Bent) 
 
 , MR. BENT:— WTien I said $2.10 I as- 
 sumed he was below ground; if ha was 
 above ground it would be $1.80. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, 'the mlniers 
 voted Aye, and the 24th clause of the 
 present agreement was adopifced.) 
 
 MR. PHRRY:— For 'the benefit of one 
 or two Whoi have asked the question, I 
 wish to state^ — Mr. Newisam asked mie 
 the' queetiion if that would foroe the 
 company to hire stable men and not 
 allow the driver to haoTiess his miulies — 
 it simply keeps in vogue Whalterver prac- 
 tice they had in vogue last year. If 
 your drivers have been hamesstng your 
 mules last year, theiy doi so , this year, 
 with the understanding that it carries 
 with it the' same as last year, that in 
 cases where any grievance exisits, tlhat 
 can be taken up, just the same as it 
 reads here. 
 
 MR. BEflSTT:— Mr. Chairman, before 
 considering clause 2 as a whol'e we 
 would like to ask tO' have embodied in 
 this clause the following: It says, 
 "The authority to hare and discharge 
 shall be vqptied in the mine manager, 
 top forman and boss driver." We would 
 like to have that read: "Mine mana- 
 ger, top fo'reman, boss driver and ma- 
 chine boss." The reason for that is 
 obvious. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I would like to 
 know what they mean by machine boss. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I will answer that. 
 The machine boBs, in chain-machine 
 mines at leasit, is a man 'that haS' charge 
 of the machineB, has chargie of hiring 
 the machine runners and discharging 
 the sam'e if neceBsary. This man is_ 
 also the electrician and, as a general 
 pro'po'sltion, has charge of keeping the 
 machines in repair. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 didn't know 
 that they had anything of that kind. 
 They haven't in my district. That is 
 the reason I asked the question. I 
 didn't know thalt the machine repairer 
 
 working on electrical machines had the 
 power to hire and disoharge machine 
 men. I ' tlh'O'Ught that was vestqd in 
 tlhe mine manager^-to hire^the machine / 
 men. 
 
 MR. LiUKENS:- In our mine, Mr. 
 Jeremiah, the machine boss has that 
 rlghlt and does it. 
 
 MR. REtTNOLJ>S:— I Wish to state 
 that in ve(ry, nearly 'every m-achlne mine 
 that I am acquainted wttn, where they 
 have Whait' is known as machine boss, 
 ho is nothing more or less than the ma- 
 chine repairer, and has not the power 
 to hire and discharge. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That is not the case 
 with electrical machine plants. 
 
 MR. REfYNOLDS:— We have some of 
 them down in our field, and noi matter 
 what you. call him, 'that is what he 
 will do. He will repair machines in 
 every plant that I know of, regardless 
 of whalt yO'U call him. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— He pu'ts In part of 
 his time doing that, Mr. Reynolds, and 
 part of the time looking after men 
 seeing that they ore doing their work 
 properly. 
 
 lyiR. RTAN: — It seems tO' me, Mr. 
 LukenS', thalt you are going to make 
 trouble for yourself if you insist on 
 anything of thel kind. Tou are going 
 to have too many mien around your 
 mines with that authority, and it will 
 be a co'nfllct of authority. I think the 
 mine manager is the man whO' ought 
 to look after that, and he alone. It 
 strikes me it is not the best of judg- 
 ment even fO'r you people 'to insist upon 
 that. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — ^We consider we are 
 the beet judges of that. In large mines 
 we find it necessary to sub-divide the 
 work and not give one man too much 
 to do, and we find it necessary in our 
 mine to do , that. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- rt makes no dif- 
 ference hoiw large nor how smaJI the 
 mine is, if they are eaccluded the small 
 mine will have as much right as the 
 large mine will. The m.achine runner 
 will have two bosses. He will have 
 the mine manager and the machine 
 boss; the man that is repairing his 
 machine and working along with him 
 a good deal of thte time. Then there 
 will be 'trouble. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— I don't think Mr. 
 Lukens has any kick at his mine. I 
 don't think the machine boss has any 
 charge over the men. He belongs to 
 our organization and I never heard 
 any kick with the men and him yet. 
 And more than that, he repairs ail 'the 
 machines, and there will be a kick there 
 if he is given authority. If they ask 
 him to co'me out of our organization 
 and be a boss the men will contend he 
 shall not work on the machines; the 
 cO'nsequence will be they will want 
 another man on there to repair the ma- 
 chines, and you will be in a worse boat 
 than you are now. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We move the adoption 
 of the second clause of the present con- 
 tract. (Seconded by Mr. Garrison.) 
 
280 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 10. 
 
 MR. RTISSELL:— In regard to thiia 
 second clause I deBire' to^say that it la 
 not entirely satisf actiory to the miners of 
 Illinois, as tbei-operatorsi are well a/Ware. 
 A flg-ht has been g-oing on for the past 
 two years between tihe miners of Illi- 
 nois and some of the otflijer classes of 
 labor employed around the mine. You 
 also know in that regard, or so- far 
 as the eng'ineers are cx)ncemed in that 
 respect, that it has been carried beyond 
 the state of Illinois into the American 
 Fed.eration of Labor and a decision 
 has" been rendered wTilch. gives the 
 United Mine "Workers control of the 
 hoisting engineers in and around the 
 mJnes. Last year when we met in" con- 
 vention with the opera:tors in Spring- 
 field we fought for control of the en- 
 gineers at that time. But owing to 
 the fact that the operators were work- 
 ing at that time with the eng'ineiers, 
 holding a contract with the engineers 
 as they did with the United Mine 
 Workers, we gave way. and so' far as 
 we are concerned this year in the state 
 of lUinods, we are willing agadn to give 
 way. Our reason for doing that Is that 
 the operators this year have a contract 
 with the engineers as they had last 
 year, and we in this state do not care 
 to interfere so long as this contract 
 exists. I make this statement for the 
 state organization. The national or- 
 ganization has taken some action in 
 this regard, and our national president 
 is here, and it is for him to say whether 
 we are rigtit and whether we can take 
 this position in the state or not. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— President Russell 
 has covered very fully the aittitude of 
 our organization toward dther organi- 
 zations that are 'exercising and attempt- 
 ing to exercise jurisdiction over some 
 classes of Ajvorkmen employed in and 
 around the mines. While I know the 
 operators do not care to en'ter intO' the 
 matter of our own trade disputes, still 
 it is necessary to say, to make our 
 po'Sition clear in this matter, that as 
 far as the question of trade rights is 
 concerned the United Mine Workers 
 is- the only organizatdion having the 
 right to exercise jurisdiction over any 
 class of mine emplos^s, and While we 
 dO' ndt want to interfere with any har- 
 monious relationship that leodsts in Illi- 
 nois or eise-where and shall not at any 
 time start to wage industrial warfare 
 among the different classes of workers 
 still I want to say that our organization 
 is now absorbing all the engineers and 
 skilled workmen around the mines in 
 o'ther states. We have them in Indi- 
 ana; we have a contract for the bitu- 
 minous disitrlct of Indiana; we have 
 a contract for them in Iowa; we 
 have a contract for them in Kan- 
 pas: we have contracts for them 
 in some of the southern state's: 
 we expect to make contracts for them 
 in the eiast, and it is only a question' of 
 a very short 'time until we' shall control 
 fi.bsolutely the engineers and other 
 pkilled work around the mines outside 
 ' f the state of Illinois. NoW, we do 
 
 not want to do anything to mterfere 
 with your contract with them, but 
 when thieir contract expires, if they 
 Will agree with us to consolidate with- 
 out organization, reserving all the 
 riglits they now have except the right 
 to strike without our consent, then we 
 say, gentlemen, we propose to make 
 those overtures to them. If they do 
 decide to become part of our organi- 
 zation, then all the safeguards they 
 give you, shall be given you by our 
 organization, but we do not want the 
 adopition of this section to mean that 
 at no time during the scale year can 
 we so to ttae engineers and ask them 
 to become a part of the United Mine 
 Workers, but we Will not attempt to 
 absorb them during the life of their 
 contract. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Replying to President 
 Russell and President Mitchell, I sim- 
 ply wish to say that the position of the 
 operators of Illinois Im well defined, well 
 unders'tood, and we abide by It. 
 
 (On motion to adopt clause 2 of the 
 present contract, the operators voteid 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and the 
 clause was adopted.) 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I regret to say 'to you that the com- 
 mittee on the 12th clause has been un- 
 able to agree. The, miners said that 
 they would not consider anything else 
 than the present agreement, so we had 
 to stop. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— Let us see on 
 What points you disagreed. Let us see 
 if we can't get together here. 
 
 (The secretary read the first para- 
 garph of the 12th clause of the present 
 agreement.) 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I move the adoption 
 of the paragraiJh just read. (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move as a substitute 
 the 1st clause of article 12 of the oper- 
 a'tiors' scale. In doing so I -wish to 
 admit that the language of the sub- 
 stitute is ambiguous and seems to mean 
 more than we intended, but we ■will 
 explain what we mean In the record, 
 or perfect the language. It reads: 
 "The scale of mining prices herein pro- 
 vided is based upon an .eight-hour 
 work day, and it is definitely und'er- 
 stoo'd that this shall mean eight hours' 
 work at the face, exclusive of noon 
 time, six days a week or forty- elgiht 
 hours in a week, provided the operator 
 desires the men tO' -work, and whe-ther 
 the shaft is actually hioisting or net, 
 and no local ruling shall in any way 
 affect this agreement or Impose condi- 
 tions affectine- the same." The fault 
 of that language is that It seems to 
 imply that miners shall be in the mine 
 eight hours on a fractional day, 'wlilch 
 was not intended. WTiat 'wie do melan 
 is that on fractional days the miners 
 shall come out at their convenience, 
 not exceeding the eight-hour day, in- 
 stead of having some local rule bring 
 them out in say an hour's time, which 
 Is impracticable in the long -wall condi- 
 tions, for which only I can speak. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 281 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like toi ask 
 Mr. Bent a question. He says it Is im- 
 practicable for them tO' comie out on 
 rfractional days wjthin a certain given 
 time, say an hour. I believe that is 
 ■wrhat you mean. If such is the case, 
 how is it practicable for them o comie 
 out at the end of eight hours when the 
 mine runs .the full eight hours and six 
 days in the week? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. C?hairman, that an- 
 swer is easy. The miner knows that 
 the day's work ends at 3:30 or 4 o'clock 
 and he Is prepared for it. He does not 
 know that the mine is gtfing to stop 
 in two', three or four hours, and Is un- 
 prepared for it. He has coal some- 
 times that has been .taken down, and 
 various things in his room are not pre- 
 pared for a sudden stop, and, perhaps 
 not in ordinary cases> but in frequent 
 cases an hour's time will not put his 
 place in proper shape for him to come 
 out. In addition tO' that the earning 
 power of 'the man is necessarily inte*- 
 fered with inside of the eight-hour day 
 "When he is required by any local rules 
 to come out of the mine when he has 
 work in his room which he can do to 
 •advantage. We don't claim the right 
 at all of continuing the turn, or giving 
 "Kim any more pit cars or anything of 
 the kind. And I wish to say, Mr. 
 Chairman, that two years ago it was 
 admitted on the conimlttee floor that 
 that regulation was not applicabte in 
 all cases tO' the long wall mines, and 
 I have knowledge that mines in the 
 third vein field have never adopted that 
 rule to 'this day, and are not working 
 under it. I know one large company in 
 northern Illinois that has a local agree- 
 ment with its men by which the com- 
 pany sends word around the face in 
 the oase of a fractional day within an 
 hour's time before the mine shuts 
 down, and the miners on the other 
 hand arrang'e to come out thereafter at 
 their convenience. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— What I rise to is 
 that I think the objectionable feature 
 that Mr. Bent referred to in this clause 
 can be very easily overcome by adopt- 
 ing the system that we now have in 
 the third scale district. That is by the 
 Company notifying the men one hour 
 previous, to the time the mine is going 
 to cease hoisting upon fractional parts 
 of a day. By doing that it g'ives the 
 miner twO' hours to prepare his place, 
 ani be on top in one hour after the 
 mine is through hoisting. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I simply wish to say 
 that very often we don't know it at all 
 in advance of the suspension. It is 
 quite a common occurrence for us to 
 be told by telephone — I am not speak- 
 ing of one mine now but of manes in 
 general — that the switch engine will 
 put cars on our siding by a certain 
 time, and that will mean our mine ly- 
 ing idle for a fraction of an hour, or 
 .iuFt barely saving us. When that time 
 '•'O'mes we find the switch eniglne is not 
 there, and then ascertain that it will 
 •come In a certain length of time but 
 
 not soon enough, and shut down with 
 no warning whatever, and that is not 
 rare. These fractional days are not in- 
 frequent, you know. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— The 12th clause in 
 last year's scale in my opinion has 
 given us more trouble than anyrthing 
 we have ever had. I believe it has 
 caused more local troubles in this state 
 than any other. You have scarcely 
 got the same rules in any miine. They 
 all differ. Now H seems to be con- 
 strued by the miners that provided 
 the miner desires to work he bas the 
 privilege to make any niles he pleases 
 on that work, which I believe is mis- 
 leading and is doing a great deal of 
 harm. I have always contended that 
 our agreemient was eight hours pet 
 day and six days per week or 48 hours 
 per -wteek. That word has crept in some 
 way, I suppose it was put In alt first, 
 but I don't believe it was the intention 
 of the operator to take advantage of 
 that word when it ■was made up first. 
 I know it wasn't w'ith. me, and I think 
 there ought to be a word in here so 
 the ruling will be the same in the whole 
 state. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Newsam, will you 
 permit a queeition? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I will, Mr. Ryan. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What rules do you al- 
 lude to? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Well, if a mine de- 
 sires to work, the ruling is different 
 in different mines. Some mines you 
 must be out in half an hour, you must 
 get your shO'ts ready and be out in 
 half an hour. There is other places 
 where the rule comes -within an hour. 
 I mean to say on this floor that when 
 all your coal is carried out of your 
 mines by half past two in the after- 
 noon, the miner ought to be allowed 
 to stay in the mine till four if he so 
 ■wished, because it will take him ajl 
 that timfi. If he hasn't any coal tO' drill 
 his holes and timber his place and take 
 time to make himself safe. Now, that 
 is what I tMnk. I don't think it is the 
 intention of the operators to force the 
 miner tO' remain in the mine when he 
 hasn't got any work. I don't believe 
 it is the intention to keep, him on in 
 the afternoon if he hasn't got any work, 
 but the miner should have the privilege 
 if he hasn't got coal to loosen it in that 
 time. That is what I think. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I don't think myself 
 that the 12th clause of the operators' 
 proposed agreement is worthy of con- 
 sideration at all in this committee. If 
 we were to adopt that clause the oper- 
 ator would have the whole thing ttis 
 way. He could have men go down 
 there for one day a week, and oontln- 
 uallyi stay in there eight hours per 
 day. for six days for a one-day hoist. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Plcton, a question. 
 Didn't I state in the first place that the 
 language was ambiguous and we would 
 eitheir change the language or specify 
 in the record what we do mean? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— The misleading lan- 
 guage in this clause has been read, and 
 
282 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 this clause Is what is up for adoption. 
 That is what I ajm talking about. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Yes, but we have speci- 
 fied in the record that we didn't mean 
 what you say we mean. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Well, even if it 
 doesn't mean whaJt you say it doesn't 
 mean', I want to say rigtlt here and now 
 that for one I will oppose thiat clause 
 most bitterly, and as far as Mr. Neiw- 
 sam. claiming' that on running out of 
 coal a man should have all day to pick 
 that coal, when they run ouit one, two 
 or three carsi they should have that 
 privilege, I want to state rilght bepe 
 that that cose has happened in a very 
 few instanoes in this district. They 
 have had privileges that they haven't 
 had in other districts, and I suppose 
 he is afraJid that it will be Just the 
 same as other districts, and he is 
 riglit in ithot suppoisitloii, after this 
 year. I don't believe there Is an oper- 
 ator in this dSBtrlct who has lost any- 
 tlhing by the elausie in our last year's 
 agreement through a man coimlng out 
 on 'fraotlonal parts of a day. In a 
 great many instances they have re- 
 duced the number of their day shift 
 so that they could keep them in there 
 all day, and it has been more satisfac- 
 tory; but to keep 100 or 200 men lying 
 in that mSne for the sake of 15 or 20 
 day meni, we can't stand for it. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I emphatically deny 
 the! charge' that Mr. Plcton mokes. I 
 emiphatically say here it is the worst 
 injury to your day men of aijything 
 you have around your mine. I em- 
 phatically say that my mines ore 
 stopped over half the time in the after- 
 noon with that thing, every mine I 
 have got. There is very few days that 
 our miners are not closed out at two, 
 at half-past two, and sometimieB' aJt 
 noon. The men have got to quit. Now 
 I say, gentlemen, that is wrong tO' the 
 man that is working by the day. • I 
 deny the sitatements made. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Can I ask a question? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— Yes, a thousand. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I do not want to ask 
 that many. Who is making the 
 greatest kick on the disadvantage of 
 the day men, the operatO'r or the day 
 men? 
 
 MR. NEWS'AM:— Well, bath. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I want to say that 
 the day man is not making any kick. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, Mr. Pic- 
 ton says that wei have no gro'und for 
 objecting to tfhie present agreenjent. 
 The present agreement has never pro- 
 vided any such thing- In regard to the 
 fractional day, but on the other hand 
 provides that no demand shall be made 
 locally, and that there shall be no 
 rulings- in conflict with these corltraots, 
 and the'rei is a lo'cal ruling in many dis- 
 tricts in this state to this effect, when 
 'the contract is sileni on the subject 
 except to g'ive us eight hours' work. 
 Now, we do not claim the right to have 
 any man in the mine eight hours for 
 who-m we do 'not furnish work eight 
 hours. We are willing to have him 
 
 come out voluntarily using their own 
 judgment after the mine is shut down, 
 just as fast as they are prepared to 
 leave their working places. But Mr. 
 Pic'ton has referred to a local ruling 
 In violation of the contract, and is of 
 the opinion that it is a vlO'lation of the 
 contract, that has worked well. 
 
 MR. SMITH:— We have had this 
 paragraph up repeatedly at every meet- 
 ing, and I w^nt to say that this local 
 ruling in No. 1 sub-dds'trict has been 
 in vogue there I think practically since 
 '97, and I don't know of any hard- 
 ship that had been worked there on 
 the operator. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Where is that, Mr. 
 Smith? 
 
 MR. SMITH:— The Wilmington field. 
 You might say that the local ruling, as 
 Mr. Bent has stated, that where a man 
 would taJce down a side of coal and 
 the mines would quit a fractional part 
 of a day, that that would work some 
 hardship. We say that in all these 
 cases, even in all the local rulings, that 
 if thos'e m»n have got their plabe in such 
 a condition that they have got to fix it 
 so that it won't be closed the next 
 morning, we say to them they have 
 a right tO' fix up that place in all cases 
 of emergency, so that It has worked 
 as far as I know all right there. I cer- 
 tainly knoiw that there has been a con- 
 tention right along ever since that 
 local ruling has been adopted in that 
 field, but nevertheless it works success- 
 fully. Now I remember even at Mr. 
 Buchanan's mine, I think it was, the 
 beginning of this year, when that mine 
 was taking a squeeze', that Mr. Camp- 
 bell asked me that under those con- 
 ditions—and the co'mmittee was there — 
 whether we would allow the men to 
 work under those circumstances. I 
 told him certainly, yes, that that was 
 one of our local rulings; that under 
 all those circumstances where it be- 
 came necessary to save the place from 
 closing, that our committee had the 
 right to allow the men to continue on 
 at work. I want to say that I don't 
 think that the matter as it Is now 
 should be adopted. I think the way it 
 read last year Is suflicienit. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I want to say that 
 the state organization in their, consti- 
 tution adopted last year in regard to 
 this local ruling that you speak of, has 
 given a .m.an the privilege of fix'ing his 
 place when the mine Is idle, .providing 
 that he gets permission or notifies the 
 pit commltteie that his place needs it, 
 and no' local ruling could go against 
 that. The only reason why they require 
 them to notify is because if they didn't 
 ■ there are men who would work four- 
 teen hours for every five hours a mine 
 runs, and were we to adO'pt a clause 
 as the operator desires to 'have lit adopt- 
 ed, it means that certain mines will 
 do 'in the coming year as they have been 
 trying to do in past years, and did do 
 in years past and gone, they would 
 have enough cars 'to run the niine a 
 half-day every day for months and 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 10. 
 
 283 
 
 th'ey would require thiedr miners to 
 work a full day ge'ttdng coaJ ready, and 
 they would have enough drivers and 
 day men to handle thedr output tri a 
 half-day the following day. Therefore 
 when It came up in the convention 
 asking any changes to be made in that 
 mine, the statistics showed that the 
 mine ran a half a day soi many days, or 
 it ran so many days, and that the 
 miners worked only so many days, 
 and made' so many dollars, and the 
 truth is they worked twice the number 
 of days. This has beien something w© 
 had to figtut in years gone by. We 
 don'it propose to have to flght that thing 
 again in the future. I have known 
 mines where the operators would have 
 big days, big runs, tiiey would pay 
 a premiium to the man or set of mien 
 who would get the largest run for that 
 day, and then in the convenltlon that 
 would comje up and show that record 
 for what the men could earn at th^eir 
 places. AVe want this thing stopped. It is 
 not right. "We only agree to work efeht 
 hours for you upon the ground that 
 we have eight hours' work in the mine, 
 that your mines w^ork eight hours, and 
 when you stop your mines from work- 
 ing then our contract to work for you 
 ceases and you have no right toi say 
 tO' us we shall i^emain in those mines 
 and work longer than you have people 
 to take the product away from us as 
 we produce it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— This ruling reduces tha 
 earning power of individual men ma- 
 terially, without any benefit to them 
 or their brethem, and solely to aid in 
 compili-ng statistics a little more accur- 
 ately. The thing is a simple question, 
 and affects the statistics but slightly. 
 The operators have always admitted 
 foi- years that that had a little effect 
 on the accuracy of statistics compiled 
 by the) state bureau of labor, and will 
 always frankly admit any little qualifi- 
 cation that Is necessary in the results 
 figured 'therefrom, although we can 
 readily show that men are credited with 
 being in the njine for a full day when 
 they are only in the mine for an hour 
 or so, and often times when they only 
 have a pit car left in from the day 
 brfore, which gives the appearance on 
 the company's records of their being 
 iv. the mine when they haven't oeen 
 there at all, which fully offsets. What 
 people say is that the figures compiled 
 by the state bureau of labor are valu- 
 able and reliable guides in many re- 
 spects, but that they are only approxi- 
 mate, and the man is a fool who co'mea 
 in here and claims that it shoiws pre- 
 cisely what the men have earned. It 
 requires a beitter reason, gentlemen, 
 than thie fact that deductions from 
 statistics are slightly Inaccurate to 
 sh'ow cause why the earning power of a 
 great many men shall be materially 
 reduced, and those men, the men in 
 the mines that most need th'S oppor- 
 tunity; in other words, the men who) 
 for the time being have the po'orest 
 
 places and find it the most diflacult to 
 take care of their working places and 
 keep their turn at the samei time, are 
 the sufferers by that rule; while vhe 
 men who are getting a larger turn 
 through their rooms being good do not 
 suffer by it. The miners of the third 
 vein field extensively are not in favor 
 of this rule. I diO'n't know bow exten- 
 sively they are in favor of it. I know 
 that extensively they are not In favor 
 of It. Officials of the miners' or- 
 ganization have told me m'ore than 
 once that while that rule might be a 
 desirable one and harm no O'ne in cer- 
 tain seams in this state, it was not 
 applicable to the' long wall mines. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What officials told you 
 that? Who were they? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Well, Mr. Ryan, I ex- 
 pect toi have you contradict me as n 
 question of memory against memory, 
 but I claim that you said 'that to ua 
 two years ago at the time we conceded 
 four cents, when we carefully inquired 
 into it in sub-committee at Spr'lnigfleld, 
 before givlhg our answer to that ques- 
 tion. Now, I think you have qualified 
 that as to the way you recollect what 
 you said. I want to be perfectly fnir 
 in what I say, but I want to sta<e 
 my recollection, which is perfectly clear 
 to me. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— I just wanted to ask 
 the question at the time. I will settle 
 that later on. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I want to point out an- 
 lOther injustice that this rule creates. 
 In our field two mines less than a mile 
 apart; in one 'Of these the men have 
 no such rule and the company havina;- 
 several niines has no such rule, and 
 another mine_ along side competing with, 
 them has tiiat rule in force. Hence, 
 the one company will have coal to 
 start on the next morning after a 
 fractional day when men are scarce, 
 and the other company will not have. 
 The drivers of ■one mine are without 
 work the first thing in the morning, 
 and they are not at the other when 
 these fractional days occur. There is 
 an inequality between companies. 
 There is an inequality bfetween the min- 
 ers in the good places as oOimpored with 
 those not so good and there is no gain 
 to anybody, and forsoioth it is all in 
 order to compile accurate Statistics. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— When a statement is^ 
 made such as Mr. Bent made a few 
 moments ago that somebody said some- 
 thing, it is well that the record be 
 made clear, and those present know 
 who said it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is right. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Now I want ta say 
 that I have nO' re'collection- whatever 
 of ever having said anything of the 
 kind to Mr. Bent, or any other opera- 
 tor. Three years ago in our state con- 
 vention I advocated this very rule, and 
 I believe I wrote the rule that wafe 
 afterwards adopted and made a part cf 
 our state constitution. In that .:o.n - 
 vention sora-e of the delegates frcni 
 
284 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 the Wilmington field opposed the adop- 
 tion of a rule that compelled ithemi to 
 leave the mine onei hour after quitting 
 time on the fractional part of the day. 
 If the delegates present Will remem- 
 Taer, Llewtellyn Rogers from Braidwood 
 opposed that rule on the floor of our 
 convention (not the joint convention, 
 the miners' convention,) and fell in line 
 when the convention adopted thl© rule by 
 an over\yhelming majority. Since that 
 time and within the last six month.s 
 Mr. Rogers' told me that he entirely 
 changed his mind. He opposed lit then 
 on the ground that the miners would 
 not have time to put their place in 
 shape. In fact he took the very same 
 ■stand that you have taken today, out 
 lie says now that since it became a 
 rule the miners understand it that they 
 are digging just as much coal ncnr 
 and keep their work up just as well 
 as they did in the days when they used 
 to stay in the mine in idle days and 
 nights and every other old time. The 
 records will show that Mr. Rogers tooU 
 that position at that convention. Now, 
 I don't see how I or anyboidy else could 
 take the position Mr. Bent claims we 
 took when we ourselves are responsible 
 for the commencement of the agitation 
 that resulted in the adoption of th.it 
 very same rule. I 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Ryan knows I 
 would not Willingly misquote him or 
 anyone. It is merely a question of 
 recollection, and it is someithing that 
 was very firmly impressed on my mind, 
 from the fact that we were In grave 
 doubt as to the propriety of advancing 
 our scale four cents Der ton, and in 
 fub-committee, as I recall it, we asked 
 assurance in regard to two itbings; that 
 we should be given a full eight hours" 
 at the working face which we claimed 
 had not occurred before in the third vein 
 field, and that the fractional day rule 
 our miners even then were admitting 
 was not considered applicable to the 
 long wall mines. Now Mr. Ryan agrees 
 with me about the eight-hour day and 
 he re'members differently what he said 
 ■ about the other. Is that fair? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — When you are through 
 I will answer that proposition. Now 
 this is rather out of place but at' the 
 samte time it is well to have these mat- 
 ters thoroughly undierstood. We said to 
 you the very same thing when we 
 talked to you northern Illinois opera- 
 tors and induced you to give us the 
 four cents that we said to the Dan- 
 ville district operators, nothing more 
 and nothing less. That if there wes 
 anything of that kind that your mine 
 was subject to, that you ought to get 
 relief from, we would do all that we 
 possibly could to give you that relief. 
 That was all that was said, and I con- 
 tend, Mr. Bent, that we have done it, 
 and I contend now that the miners in 
 the northern part of the state, even 
 under the poor conditions and objec- 
 tionable conditions under which they 
 work, come as near giving the opera- 
 
 te rs an e^ight-hour work day as the 
 mines in any other part of the state. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I was only trying to 
 refresh Mr. Ryan's memory. He states 
 that correctly. It occurred in sub- 
 committee in Springfield. Nothing was 
 said to us on the E-ide. That is exactly 
 what was said, and we did get relief 
 the following ,year. My recollection is 
 it covered the other part also. Tne-te 
 is nothing in the present agreement 
 that allows you to make a local ruling 
 'Of that kind; and we claim it is in- 
 applicable to our field, and oppose It. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— It seems to me af- 
 ter I heard these gentlemen apeak, 
 that J was right, ihat the same ruling 
 does ndt apply in all parts, that the 
 rulings have _been or are different in 
 every part. I would like to know from 
 the Ofther districts how they work en 
 that eight-hour clause. I would like to 
 hear from Mr. Russell. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL: — Mr. Chairman, I 
 have but very little to say in regard 
 to this matter.- I desire to say that it 
 seems to me that the oiperators arc 
 making a mountain out tof a mole hill. 
 If anyone should contend against ji 
 ruling of this- kind it should be the 
 miners as well as the operators. The , 
 miner is being injured by it if the op- 
 erator is being injured, as he says he 
 is. I want to say that in regard to 
 that eight-hour clause we don't admit 
 that we are violating .the e'ight-hour 
 clause in any manner by the rules that 
 we have established. The miner might 
 just as well contend under the eight- 
 hour day clause of our agreement that 
 thf; operator must furnish him eight 
 hours' work per day and forty-eight 
 hours' work per week. It would be 
 just as consistent as the contention 
 lof the operators today. Under this 
 clausie it says that the miner shall 
 work eight hours per day and forty- 
 eight hours per week. Some of our 
 miners in the state say to us that the 
 ' operators should be compelled to give 
 them that amount of work. Some of 
 thiem say that even though they should 
 dump the coal upon the prairie they 
 should give them the eight hours' work 
 that the agreement calls for. I don't 
 consider that we are violating chat 
 agreement in any manner. And I want 
 tf say right now that it seems to me 
 it is foolishness to discuss this matter. 
 The operators ask us to discipline our 
 men; they ask us to see that our min- 
 ers live up to the agreements after 
 they are made. We go out and we try 
 to do that. We have to do thaJt. 
 In the enforcerrient of this agree- 
 ment we have had to stajtion men 
 early in the morning and late at night 
 at the pit mouth where the men were 
 ccming out in order to enforce the 
 eight-hour law. We have done that, 
 and have sent out an order through 
 the state of Illinois— I myself sent it 
 out last year in many of the districts— 
 g'iving them one hour to get out of the 
 mine after the mine had quit upon the 
 
Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 285 
 
 fractional part of a day. I want to 
 E,'ay to you that that is going to— eon - 
 tinue, and the operators cannot and v/e 
 will noit allow them to come here and 
 ask us to give to them a co'ntract that 
 will take away from us all of the in- 
 dividual rights that we should enjoy 
 as an organized body. We are not 
 gxidng to allow you to come here and 
 say to us that by this contract we 
 agree toi give you everythiing that we 
 have gained through this organization 
 of ours. If we do we might just as 
 well disband the organization and quit 
 paying our money into it. There is no 
 use in it. We will agree with you upon 
 that clause of last year's agreement. 
 Further than that we will not if w 
 discuss it here for three weeks, and 
 that is all that I desire to say in re- 
 gard to the matter. I believe that we 
 are interested, all of us, at the present 
 time, in getting into this agreement 
 thos.e things that affect us and affect 
 us seriously. I want toi say to the 
 operators that if they do not we, oji 
 the miners' side of the house, certainly 
 de-sire that an agreement shall hf 
 reached here just as quickly as it pos- 
 sibly can be, reached. There are rea- 
 sons why it should be done, and we 
 should not come here and contend and 
 take up the afternoon and the night 
 and the days upon such proposiitdons as 
 this. We are willing tpi agree with you 
 upon this clanse in last year's agree- 
 ment. Further than that we will not 
 go unless we will amend it. To amend 
 that part of 'it where it says "mines" 
 we are willing to insert "operators" 
 instead of "mines" or something of 
 that kind; that is all we are willing to. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Mr. Chairman, as a 
 substitute for the pending' miotions I 
 desire to offer the following — I read 
 from the 11th clause in the present 
 agreement: 
 
 "The above scale of mining pr^ices is 
 based upon an, eight-hour work day, 
 and it is definitely understood that this 
 shall mean eight hours' work at the 
 face, exclusive of noon time, six days 
 a week or forty-eight hours in the 
 week, provided the operator desires the 
 men to work; and no local ruling shall 
 in any way affect this agreement o'v 
 impose conditions affecting the same." 
 
 It will then read: "Provided the oiper- 
 ator desires the men to work." 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We don't want 
 it that way. "Desires the mine to 
 work." 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't know, but that 
 is what we had here. "Provided the 
 operator desires the mine to w^ork." 
 
 MR. PE)RRY:— I would like to say 
 one thing in regard to this discussion. 
 T would like to g'lve the committee the 
 reason why the operators from the 
 northern district desire so strongly the 
 passing of the bill that they have pre- 
 sented herte before this legislative body. 
 In the northern district, especially in 
 the long walls, we have some very 
 deficient working places; we have some 
 
 extremely hard places. And Mr. Bent 
 gave us a reason a moment ago. He 
 said that under the local ruling mert 
 did not have the same chance whose: 
 p!ace was not good as the men wh^^ 
 had a better place. That is true, be- 
 cause the operator desires his hard 
 places worked up, his deficient places, 
 low coal, s'eams and everything else 'of 
 the kind, and work in the water, etc. 
 He sees a chance whereby if hte can 
 get this rule passed he can get these 
 places worked up without any cost to 
 himself. We have had more people 
 come to us to get some additional com- 
 pensation for the work they had to d'J 
 in places on account of the deficiency 
 of their working place than any other 
 grievance that has been carried up tii- 
 us, and when the mine works a frac- 
 tional part of the time, a man who 
 may be s'tatloned in one of those de- 
 ficient places can work the balance of 
 the day when the mine quits running 
 and then the next day will have as 
 much coai to load as the man who had 
 V, good place. Consequently when we 
 go to the operator and ask him for 
 some recompense above what he is re- 
 ceiving for the deficient place, he wilt 
 show us the pay roll and say that man 
 has made just as much money as at 
 such and ^uch a place, which we claim 
 bo be an average place. Biit how did 
 he do 'it? We worked twice as many 
 hours as the other man did: conse- 
 quently they can keep their places 
 worked up. If he didn't do that, they 
 couldn't do that without paying them 
 extra for it. That is the whole thing^ 
 In a nutsfeeJl.. That is the reason this, 
 thing Is brought from the northerni 
 field. I know it well, and I want to< 
 say to Mr. Bent and the rest of the^ 
 operators that I for one will not agr^e- 
 to something here that is going to help 
 the operators to force a man to work 
 in a deficient place.' 
 
 (The clause as amended was then 
 read again by Mr. Ryan, and the mo- 
 tion ta adopt, having been seconded by- 
 Ml. Mitchell, the question was stated 
 by the chair.) 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— When the mine- 
 is working the miners don't object to 
 v/ork. There is another Clause in tht- 
 agreement where' they can only come- 
 up at certain times, and if the mino is 
 working we never have any objections 
 to working the full eight hours; there- 
 fore I don't think that line is necessary 
 whatever. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— There isn't any abject 
 whate'ver to ad-ding the words that I 
 have suggested except to make it read 
 as it ought to read, that is all. i ' 
 
 MR. BENT:— We don't want to delay 
 the proceedings here. We want to do 
 what ■w'e can here to expedite business 
 and get a, settlement if it lies in the 
 power of this body to do business, which 
 I begin to doubt. We protest most 
 earnestly against that rule. We claim 
 that it is in violation of 'the present 
 contract and any vote we may cast- 
 
286 
 
 Afternoon ' ession, Maxch 10. 
 
 here making no reference to it, as in 
 the present agreement, does not change 
 our posi'tion in regard to the matter. 
 We shall resist it, and we shall en- 
 deavor to convince the representatives 
 ot the m'iners that they are acting 
 against the interest of the miners 
 themselves, against our interest, add- 
 ing to the cost of our coal unneces- 
 sarily by limiitlng our output when ve 
 are short of men, and shall In every 
 •way attempt to restore the condition 
 that has aJ^ways existed in our field 
 heretofore" in that respect and which 
 still exists in a part of It by the choice 
 of the miners. 
 
 (The operators voited Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the amendment was 
 •carried.') 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the 1st para- 
 graph of the 12th clause as amended, 
 the operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and it was a.dopted. 
 
 (The secretary read the 2nd para- 
 graph of clause 12.) 
 
 MR. BENT: — I do not propose, when 
 we are so aiud'ous to expedite busi- 
 rM!SS to move the adoption of. the op- 
 erators' substitute in its entirety, but "i 
 div move an amendment, as follows- 
 P'ollow^ing the language, "Without the 
 co'nsent of the operator" insert, "or in 
 case 'the mine is thrown lidle or thf; 
 ■work impeded on account of the failure 
 ■of any member of the union tO' report 
 for work, they shall forfeit, etc." I 
 trust there will be no controversy over 
 that aJt ajll. Where a case of that kind 
 has come up I understand it was held 
 hv the miners' officials and our com- 
 missioner that when the fault was due 
 to the United Mine Workers of Ameri- 
 ca, that these men were not entitled to 
 two hours' pay. There have been 
 cases where the shaft blew for work, 
 the company men and drivers went into 
 the mine, the men refused to work, 
 and the drivers claimed two hours' pay. 
 The company was wiilllng toi work and 
 had everything ready and the miners 
 failed to work, and the fault was not 
 the company's, and yet the drivers de- 
 manded their pay. It was decided 
 they should not be paid. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— That did not de- 
 prive the operaltor of the right to work 
 the men for two hours at shift work. 
 MR. BENT:— But the company did 
 not wish to do 'that. It was too short 
 p. time to pay. It was not oiur fault. 
 
 MR. RETNOLDS: — They have always 
 got plenty of work for a couple of 
 hours for drivers. 
 
 MR. BENT:-^You gelt about half an 
 hour's work out of them if you scatter 
 them at unusual work. That is abso- 
 lutely fair, gentlemen, and we are not 
 technical. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 Mi. Bent's amendment is just simply 
 covering cases that have come up dur- 
 ing the past year under the present 
 agreement, where the company felt so 
 disposed as to send men home without 
 any fault whajtsoever on the part of 
 
 those day men, but through some rnis- 
 understanding or hot headednie^ on 
 the part of the company, and orderad 
 them to put their mules in the stable 
 and refused to pay them the two hours. 
 In this case I supopse the officials of 
 both companies knew where it came 
 from. It came from our district, and 
 it took us about three months to get 
 the pay for those drivers for the 'two 
 hours, "and we finally gdt it by serving 
 notice on the company that if they 
 didn't pay it they might know what 
 the results would be. They finally paid 
 it. Under his amendment in gome 
 cases the men by agreement don't go to 
 work without they are assured there 
 will be flats to run for that day; the 
 men will go down; the drivers will 
 make a trip or two; if they don't get 
 the flats it gives them the righf to send 
 them home or pay them for an hour's 
 work or an hour and a quarter which 
 they have done In the mine. And if 
 there are going to be any amendments 
 put into the clause in the agreement, I 
 want it in favor of the men and not 
 in favor of the., company. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — According to the ad- 
 mission made by Mr. Bent I don't see 
 a,ny necessity for his amendment at all. 
 If a case of this kind came up duimg 
 the past year and our organization de- 
 cided against the day men, that is a 
 precedent that is well established. I 
 don't see any necessity, Mr. Bent, for 
 changing the clause at all, as far as 
 that Is ooncemed. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Simply that the miners 
 as well as the operators have claimed 
 that some of the provisions of the con- 
 tract were a little indistinct and am- 
 biguous, and it is in order to avoid any 
 misunderstanding and controversy at 
 the mines and going up to Mr. Justi. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — That is 'true, Mr. Bent, 
 tut it appears according to your own 
 statement that there has been no mis- 
 understanding. They have taken the 
 same positicm that you take. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Oh yes, there is a mis- 
 understanding, but it was adjusted, as 
 I understand. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Well, I want to say 
 riow, Mr. Bent, that if we undertake 
 to wipe out all those things over which 
 it is possible misunderstandings might 
 arise, we shall not only be herfe three 
 veeks but three months. There may 
 be things that we shall suffer by, and 
 we are willing to take our chances, 
 when they come up and I think you 
 ought to be satisfied to do the same 
 thing. 
 
 MR. HULL.:— While Mr B-en't cites a 
 case in which the matter was referred 
 to the officials of the two lorganizatlons 
 and it was decided against the men, 
 I have in mind a case where a mine 
 was thrown idle on account of the fail- 
 ure of the eager to report for work, 
 and no eager being available, and tho 
 men not furnishing a eager, the mine 
 was thrown idle. The case was taken 
 up and it was decided that under the 
 
Afternoon Session, March 10 
 
 287 
 
 •-'greement the men should be paid for 
 two hours. They seem to have taken 
 ;i different view 'at different tlm'es. It 
 seems to me nothing but just that if 
 the organization itself previeaits the 
 men working', it should nio't matoe any 
 claim for pay for its day men. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That Is juSt the ob- 
 jtction that I have to Mr. Bent's 
 amendment. If Mr. Bent's amend- 
 ment 6'lmply sitated that where the 
 organization was responsible for the 
 closing , dqiwn' of the mine, that 
 these men should not be paid the two 
 hours' work provided for In the agree- 
 ment, I would have nothing to say 
 against it, but hds amendment Indludes 
 just such cases as Senator Hull has 
 spoken of, and I want to say to Sena- 
 tor Hull that In the ca.se of a eager 
 being away and not showing up when 
 he was sick, it was not the fault of 
 the organization. This orgp-hization 
 cannot be responsible for its individual 
 members. They cannot say that they 
 are not to' get sick, and stay away 
 from ,the work, and that Is just the 
 reason that I object to the amend- 
 ment. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Yes, but If they 
 don't reiport for work and none of thei 
 other men will take their place, it Is 
 hardly fair to ask the company to pay 
 for two hours' time. > 
 
 MR; RUSSELL:— Before wfe ever had 
 an organization just such things havs 
 happened to the mintes of Illinois. Who 
 got the eager then? 
 
 MR. BENT:— "We didn't pay the men 
 two hours then. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- 1 know you didn't 
 pay the men' two hours. You would 
 not pay the men two hours today if it 
 wasn't for the agreement that we have. 
 But there is no agreement that says 
 thait - thte^, United Mine "Workers' must 
 furnish you a eager if your eager is 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I think I knoiV 
 something about the ease that Mr. Hull 
 refers to. This man was caging at 
 Sandoval niin'e, and it lis very wet— 
 isn't that the case vou retfer to? 
 
 MR. HULL:— Yes, sir, thaJt is the 
 case. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— On that account 
 the man took sick, and in the morn- 
 ing they couldn't get any miner to 
 take his place an 'account of 'it being 
 wet, and it was a time of year when 
 there was danger of catching cold, 
 early in the spring, and none of them 
 were dressed fit 'to go out an'd do that 
 work at that time. SO'me 'of those 
 drivers worked pretty nearly two hours, 
 and the coimpany could have worked 
 all ' of them the two hours, and they 
 actually did 'offer some of them one 
 hour. That is 'the facts in the case. 
 
 MR. KNO"WLMAN:— "Well, the fact 
 is the company never tried to get one 
 of the day men they had to |do the 
 caging. They simply tried the miners, 
 and they wouldn't come lout. 
 
 MR. HULL:— T did not bring up that 
 
 case in order to have it debated, be- 
 cause the case has been brought up 
 and settled. I mierely brought thati 
 up to show what might happen In the 
 mine, and under 'thie rules we perhaps 
 would be obliged to pay our day men 
 two hours' pay, which does niot seem 
 tc me just. That, is 'the only reason 
 I mentioned the case, and only one 
 of the instances wh^re the present 
 agreement works a hardship loni the 
 operator. 
 
 (On Mr. Bent's amendmen't, ithe oper- 
 ators voted Aye, the miners voted No, 
 and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. Chairman, 
 we offer the following amendmenlt to 
 clause 12: 
 
 "Provldin'g, further, that overtime 
 by day's labor when necessary to pro- 
 vide railroad chutes wi'th coal by night 
 and Sundays whem no' regular men 
 therefore are exclusively employed, or 
 when necessary In order not to Impede 
 the operation of the 'mine the day fol- 
 lowing, and for the work which can- 
 not be performed or completed by the 
 regular shift during the regular hours 
 without impeding 'the operation of the 
 minis, may be performed and paid for 
 at the rate of time and a half." (Sec- 
 onded.) 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and it was lioet.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— "What are the views <:f 
 the miners as to a case of that kind 
 where the company Is ready to work 
 and the miners refuse to work, and 
 the company men are sent hO'mie on 
 that account? Or some classes of day 
 men not sick, refuse to work and that 
 stops the mln'e, and the coimpany men 
 are sent home? A statement here may 
 be as good as any amendment. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, the 
 views of the miners are that if the 
 day men riefuse to work and it is 
 through their refusal that the nilne 
 does not work, that the day men who 
 are sent into the man© are not entitled 
 tc two hours' pay. 
 
 MR. BENT:— And if the miners re- 
 fuse to work? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— And if the miners 
 refuse t'o work I would consider It just 
 the same. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I move 
 the adoption of the 2nd paragraph of 
 article 12 of the present agreement. 
 
 MR. KNO"WLMAN:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Bent, by asking the question 
 if the miners refuse to work, does he 
 mean at their regular work? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir, certainly. 
 
 (Mr. Ryan resumed the chair.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 would like to say 
 one word on this paragraph. I for one 
 'Oppose anything that would force a 
 man to work outside his regular , shift 
 without any extra compensation. It 
 is unjust, it is unfair, and 'the man 
 who will ask a man who has worked 
 his regular shift to go back in a place, 
 lose his night's rest, or work on the 
 Sabbath day or at night, except to 
 
2SS 
 
 AFTEfiNOON Session, March 10. 
 
 g-ive him any extra compensatton Inr 
 it, let me say that I don't think hf 
 cares very much for anything- but him- 
 self. I for one will never vote to force 
 any man to work more than his regular 
 shift unless you agree that he shall 
 be recompensed at least some little 'or 
 it. You people — some of you, at least, 
 some of the operators — It seems to me 
 study up some plan whereby they I'pn 
 have men work overtime, for the rea- 
 son that they can get more work out 
 01 a man after his day's work is dons 
 when the mine is not running than 
 they caji when the mine is running. 
 For insitance, in brushing places in the 
 day shift when the mine is working 
 the company man who is brushing a 
 piece a little off the thoroughfare will 
 not get as many empty cars. A driver 
 can't pay as steict a;ttention to him as 
 when the mine is idle, and when he 
 comee back to work at might there, is 
 nothing to bother him. The cars are 
 all there at hand, and the coanpanj' 
 is well awarei that they get more work 
 'Out of a man than they do other times. 
 Now this is a fact. They know thaf 
 they possibly can work to better aJ- 
 vantage, and that being the case, 
 vhy not hire a man regularly for this 
 time. If you hire a man regularly at 
 brushing on the night shift or anything 
 07. that kind, that is his regular shift 
 and he has a right to work then; but 
 tc expect me to work my regular hours 
 and come back and work after thic 
 tim'e is over for noithing more than the 
 regular rate of wages is not fair, and 
 I for one will never vote for it. 
 
 MK. SECOR:— In the interest of sav- 
 ing time, I suggest that any man who 
 wants more information on this, take 
 the record of last year's meeting at 
 Springfield and read it, and study up 
 the maltter. This whole debate might 
 just as well be taken off and save mak- 
 ing a lot of record. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is all right," but 
 you try to pass it before the convention 
 here. We will never stand for It; we 
 will fight agains't it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— There are disappoint- 
 ments here for everybody. We will not 
 get a settlement here unless we be.ar 
 with disappointments and go away 
 without things that we wanted, and 
 with things that we didn't want, and 
 the time has come for us to take our 
 disappointment in these minor matters 
 with patience, and do business. The 
 operators do not believe that night 
 work or overtime pays them. Instead 
 of getting more work you often times 
 get less. There is a good deal of sleep- 
 ing undter pay at night, as every man 
 knows, in a mine. It is harder to keep 
 awake underground in the warm air 
 than it is in thie open air. There never 
 was a t^me in the history of the mining 
 industry of Illinois when there wasi so 
 little overtime as there is today. The 
 restrictions surrounding it are very 
 completely planned to have it only 
 when necessary. Now, gentlemen^, we 
 
 have dropped out of this very thing, 
 things that we wanted to incorporate, 
 and fallen back on last year's agree- 
 ment In this paragraph, and we are 
 ready to vote. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman. I 
 would like to say one thing more, and 
 call the ajttentlon of the whole com- 
 mittee to it. This year's agreement 
 says "when necessary" and it was 
 agreed last year that it did no:t mean 
 when necessary in the opinion of the 
 operator, but thait the miners' organi- 
 zation had a right to determine when 
 It was necessary, as well as the opera- 
 tors. The operators have positively re- 
 fused us this right during the last 
 year. Mr. Bent himself refused me 
 that right, stating that he did hot con- 
 sider th<i pit committee had any right 
 to investigate when men were working- 
 over'tim'e whether it was necessary or 
 not. I had quite a time from that very- 
 same thing. One operator had a man 
 working tweive hours every shift on 
 the pumps. Not necessary; no't in a 
 case of emergency. He had men wonc- 
 ing every night overtime unloading^ 
 props at his mine. At No. 1 mine of 
 Mr. Wyatt's at LaSalle they had th& 
 same thing being done, and when ; 
 went to them last and requested cho 
 Operator to permit us to have some; - 
 thing to say whether that was neces 
 sary or not. If he would only confer 
 with the pit committee or allow them 
 to confer with him in regard to tiie 
 unloading of these props and see if it 
 was necessary to do it, he said he 
 wiould not permit it, and said to me, 
 "I will fight before I will permit it," 
 after you made the record last ye.ir 
 that we did have a right to say so. if 
 the operators would play fair on this 
 overtime business you wouldn't^find the 
 opposition you do.. Some of you do — 
 most of you on this committee do, but 
 as a general thing they don't do it, 
 and refuse us the right to have any- 
 thing to say about whether a piece rf 
 work is necessary or not. And I want 
 to say now that if this is carried this- 
 year, in the coming year there will 
 be no overwork done if I am president 
 to* our sub-district, unless the pit com- 
 mittee agrees that it Is necessary to 
 be done. I want that understood right 
 here. The operators will not have the 
 whole say next year. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't want to talk 
 all the time. I don't like controversy, 
 but I wish to absolutely and unquali- 
 fiedly deny that I ever took any .^uch 
 position with Mr. Perry or any man. 
 Our position was stated in the pres- 
 ence of Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Jusiti and 
 Mi-. Scroggs, and an amicable under- 
 standing was reached in Its entirety. 
 It is absolutely false that I ever took 
 the position that the pit committee had 
 nothing to say about whether overtitne- 
 was necessary or not. They have al- 
 ways had, and the records show that 
 that is the agreement; that tha;t is a 
 matter for joint consideration.. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 289 
 
 RIR. PERRY:— I -would like toi re- 
 fresh Mr. Bent's memory, if I can. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Tou have made your 
 statement and I have denied It. Let us 
 do tausinessi 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I want to call your 
 attention to when we were to Chicago, 
 when we were talking about the men 
 unloading the props at your mime; \v^ 
 were talking ahoult ■overtSme; we nai 
 the carpenters' case up. Doi you not 
 remember my asking you if the bosisps 
 could not confer with the pit commit- 
 teie sometimes on this question of over- 
 time, and the question arose that when 
 a pieioe of work was necessary in the 
 opinion of the operatbr, especially the 
 top boss, when the pit committee was 
 coming up ait nl'ght, couldn't he say 
 ' somelthJlng to them, just call their at- 
 tention to the fact that he had some 
 wtork h'ere that he was going tO' have 
 the men do overtime, that he thtough': 
 was neoessary, and I said nine times 
 out of ten the pit committee would walk 
 on and say nothing about ilt. But they 
 see the men working overtime, and the 
 pit boss doesn't say a word to them, 
 and they don't like it. And you said 
 you didn't 'think it was hiis duty to 
 say a word to the pit committee, bvt 
 the men should go on doing the work, 
 and if the pit committee thought it 
 was a wrong, they should take It op 
 as a grievance. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Does the committee 
 want this to go on. What has- Mr. 
 Perry's ."itatement to do with Ms flrst 
 statement that I said the pit commit- 
 tee had nothing to do with it? I 
 stated that the pit committee were in- 
 terested in the matter. I said it was 
 all right for the foreman^ tO' speak to 
 the pit committee if he saw them. [ 
 saiid it was all right for the pit co^m- 
 iriittee to speak tO' the foreman if they 
 saw him. In the absence of the pit 
 committee the foreman would tell the 
 men to do 'it if he thought it was neces- 
 sary, and as long as nothing was said 
 on elither side it was thought to be 
 satisfactory. The pit committee could 
 see the boss or th'e' boss see the pit 
 committee, or in default of anythinf? 
 beiing said, the boss' could use bis ^wn 
 judgment. Never did I say it was no 
 business of the pit co'mmitteei^and Mr. 
 Perry s'tated that I did. 
 
 MR. J. P. MORRIS:— I am in favor 
 of the amendment that has been of er- 
 ed in that clause, part of the 12th para- 
 graph of that agreement, for more rea- 
 sons than the financial end of the mat- 
 ter, and I am surprised to see the stand 
 that the operators — 
 
 MR. RYAN: — That has been voted 
 on. The motion before the comrniittee 
 is toi adopt the 2nd paragraph of the 
 121 h clause of the present agreement. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I wanted to 
 state here as long as I didn't get to 
 speak on the amendment, that I want- 
 ed to say tha;t if that clause will be 
 adopted here and the operators follow 
 the same taotlcs for the .next year 'that 
 
 tbey have in the past In the district 
 where I pomie from, if they find their 
 n))nes tied up and want of dr'ivers, as 
 far as I am concerned while I am sub- 
 distridt officer, they never nee'd come 
 to me, for I have fought this overtime 
 upon what I understand to be a fair, 
 square issue, that is, that they would 
 equally divide the amount of work 
 that was 'to be done at the mtoes upon 
 Idle days, and give each one Of their 
 company men an equal share of the 
 work, and not continue to have some 
 of theiir men working threle days a.nd 
 four days in the week, and others 
 working seven days in the week. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— What has that got to 
 do with this ca.se? 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— The same thing 
 will come up again if they try to compel 
 the drivets to gO' out and work for a 
 day, a hialf a day, a quarter of a day or 
 three-quarters of a day as the opera- 
 tors mlight wish, to run their mines, 
 and have more of their company men 
 or select men ■working seven days in 
 the -week, and don't give those men an 
 equal share of the day's work that is 
 to be done in regard to repairs done 
 on the' roads and in the mines, v/hich 
 they should do, and which I believe 
 last year's agreement provided that 
 the shift hands should get an equal 
 share of the s>hift work. So I want 
 the Springfield operaJtors to know rh.at 
 if the same thing is going tO' be con- 
 tinued, that they will have to deal with 
 the drivers thems'elves as far as I am 
 concerned. 
 
 (On 'the mo'tion to adODt the second 
 paragraph of the 12th clause of the 
 present agreement, the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and it was 
 carried.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I wish my vote re- 
 corded against that. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— You haven't 
 got any vote here. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I have. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Now I want toi say as 
 chairman of ; the committee that I ob- 
 ject to the remark just ma^e. 
 
 MR. J. P. MORRIS:— I didn't mean 
 thait. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I don't care what you 
 meant. You have no business saying 
 it. Everybody here has a vote arid a 
 voice, and nobody has beien denied It 
 here, and I don't want such a remark 
 made here again by either a miner or 
 an operator. I will kick every time, 
 such a remark is made in this meeting, 
 or I will leave the chair. 
 
 MR. J. P. MORRIS:— You don't -leed 
 to jump on me like that. Is it not ihe 
 ruling that the majority on each side 
 casts the vote? If it be, the minor 
 has no vote. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You had a i>erfect 
 right. Brother Perry, if you didn't waat 
 the vote to be ■ cast, tk> have said an. 
 This committee has withdrawn before 
 and .polled the committee. You had a 
 right to watJiara-w "hefore the vote w.is 
 
290 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 10. 
 
 cast, and not make such a remark as 
 that. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Mr. Chairman, may 1 
 move as an addition to that parag-raph 
 the clause appearing in the 12th para- 
 graph of the operaJtors' scale, reading 
 as follows: 
 
 "The mllnes shall work or not ait the 
 ■option of the operator, and no \o2i\ 
 rule or condition such as prescribing 
 the exact number of railroad cars or 
 the precise switch on which they shall 
 be placed shall interfere wlith this 
 right." (Seconded by Mr. Moorshead.) 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— Can It be passed as an 
 addition to that clause; should it be 
 taken up as a separate clause? A great 
 many mines In the staJte are suffering 
 from restrictioins of that character and 
 I would be glad to have an opportunity 
 to bring the matter before the gentle- 
 men of this committee. 
 
 MR. DEI-,KHANTT:— Mr. President, 
 I believe down in our sub-district there 
 is some such a rule as that in regard 
 to a certain number of cars being on 
 the sidetrack before the whistle blows 
 for work, and it has worked to perfec- 
 tion. Now, let me state 'to you that 
 on several occasions this winter the 
 men have been called up from their 
 beds by that whistle for work, dressed, 
 and went down to that pit — ^to the dif- 
 ferent pits in the same sub-d'ls trlct, and 
 when they got there only to be told 
 to come home again. Tou know your- 
 self from your experience, Mr. Resident, 
 and all thesei other men, that it is not 
 a nice job on a cold wlntef's morning 
 to put on your pit clothes when the 
 whistle blows for work and go down 
 to the mine when there is not a car 
 in sight anywhere, and just about the 
 tSme you get there you meet two or 
 three fellows coming home becausa 
 they aren't going to work that day. 
 And thay adopted the rule that if there 
 wasn't a certain amount of cars on the 
 s-ldetrack, that whistle should not blow 
 for work. I will say in regard to i.hc! 
 Chicago & "Vlrden Coal company at 
 Virden that they have gone to ex- 
 tremes in the matter. I will give them 
 credit for that, In trying to find out 
 it possible about these cars, and thev 
 couldn't do it. I know myself that I 
 
 met Mr. often when I would be 
 
 coming ofC the night shift in his office, 
 trying to make somie arrangements to 
 find out whether cars would come or 
 not. But still It failed. They would 
 hang on and wait till the last minute, 
 and they would geit word there was 
 some cars this side of Chicago, and 
 they would blow the whistle for work 
 anyhow, and in a good many cases v/3 
 went down there for work, and had <o 
 come home again, freezing and cold, 
 and I tell you something must be done 
 about It. It is a continual gr'lnd down 
 in that section of the state. Since I 
 have been on this scale committee var- 
 ious men from the different parts of 
 the fourth scale district have asked 
 to get some relief on thiSi question we 
 
 are arguing now, and Mr. Lukens him- 
 self must admit that I am telling the 
 truth in regard to this, and as for 
 this car business, I believe we get 
 general satisfaction from that. Before 
 there was a certain amount of cars on 
 the' aide track that justd'fleid blowiner 
 the whistle — a specified number that we 
 agreed to with the company. He 
 knows h'imseif. Say it was seven cars, 
 the whistle blows, and we were there 
 to load them, but not any less, and it 
 worked to perfection ■with us. I must 
 say it again. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I suggest if you are 
 going to debate this question, it will 
 be a good idea to have a motion and 
 then discuss the motion. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— I will move the adop- 
 tion of the clause as read. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— I regret that •the op- 
 erators should feel the neces^ty of 
 bringing a matter of this character be- 
 fore this conference of intelligent busi- 
 ness men. We take it as a general, 
 broad proposition 'that the operators 
 must conltrod their own. business so far 
 as the selling of the coal 'is concerned, 
 and we take it on the other side that 
 it is to the interest of the miners to 
 work under reasonable rules and re- 
 stniotioms when the opfpoPtunlty is af- 
 forded theta. I think these two prop- 
 ositions will go withoult gain-saying. It 
 has been a source of much trouble 
 throughout the 5th and 9th districts, 
 at the various mines, regarding the 
 various local rules put into effect there 
 by the miners' local bodies, concerning 
 the supply of cars. "We have had what 
 seemed to me most aggravating cases 
 where the whistle blew for work, tlip 
 town was full of cars, the switch en- 
 gine busily engaged in putting them on 
 the respective tracks, and yet the min- 
 ers refused to work because those cars 
 were not placed exactly to the minute 
 according to the local regulations, and 
 also when that minute was a half to 
 three-quarters or even an hour prior 
 to the time for hoisting coal. Now we 
 have no desire, of course, to bring out 
 the ' men simply for the plelasure of 
 having them walk to the shaft and 
 then return to their homes because no 
 facilities are afforded them for going 
 to work; but we do claim to be In touch 
 with the various railroads in the mat- 
 ter of car supply, and we try to find 
 out what is coming and when the flats 
 may reasonably be expected there, and 
 I feel that if there is any reasonable 
 surety of a fair day's work being per- 
 formed, both the miners and the oper- 
 ators should wish those rules to be cor- 
 rected so as to be susceptible of a 
 clean business interpreitation in the in- 
 teres'ts of both parties. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTT:— I amend that 
 motion, Mr. President, by having this 
 fixed locally. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then your motion will 
 be to refer the- matter back for local 
 settlement? 
 
 MR. DBLEHANTY:— Yes, sir 
 
Afternoon Session, March 10. 
 
 291 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It has been moved and 
 seconded that the matter be referred 
 back for local seittlement. 
 ' MR. JEREMIAH:— On behalf of the 
 motion here, I -want to state that is 
 the proper place to fix It. I don't be- 
 lieve there are threee mines in my dis- 
 trict that have the same rule in regard 
 to starting, and. In regard to the way 
 thaJt the whistle shall blow in the 
 morning, whether they have cars in 
 or not. Most every mine has a different 
 way of giving signals Wheta they have 
 cars in or exi>e!ct cars in the morning. 
 Murphysboro has one way; the railway 
 men know, and Herrin has another 
 one; Sparta has another; Duquoin has 
 another one. It is all different, and It 
 i<: all adjusted locally, and I think It 
 works satisfactory to the men and the 
 companies. We have had no oomplairt 
 except once this year, and I think that 
 is adjusted satisfactorily. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Cutts thinks that 
 th*! miners ousht to come whenever 
 the whistle blows for work, I'egardless 
 of where the' cars are or where they 
 were placed. He cladm'S that It would 
 be no advantage to the operators, in a 
 general way, to blow that whistle for 
 work if he didn't have the cars or ex- 
 
 ■" pect them by 'the time the mine should 
 start operation. I want to state thai 
 I know of a great many cases in, this 
 district where the whistle has blown 
 not only one morning, bu't three in 
 succession, and no cars were there for 
 the men to load. They were called out 
 those three mornings and wient to their 
 place of employment and then had to 
 g-o back home and change after walk- 
 ing a mile and three-quarters in the 
 bitterest cold weather we have had and 
 we, as miners, have got to have some- 
 thing to help us out or help the opera- 
 tors out by knowing whether there are 
 going to be oars there. It is eithel- done 
 for a li'ttle bit of prejudice on ithe part of 
 the operators or else. In my esitimation, 
 he neglects his business. He ought to 
 know within three days of when he 
 is going to get those cars, and for one 
 I would not like to ptit on my pit 
 clothes three days in succession and 
 travel from one and; a quarter to three 
 and a quarter miles and then not get 
 
 I to work. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I am one that is 
 suffering now under that same rule. 
 We have one mine now within five 
 miles of here that if thev cars are noit 
 in the afternoon exactly at four o'clock 
 the mines will not work tomorrow; not 
 if they are put in at five minutes after 
 four. If they are put in at five minutes 
 after four by somebody's watdh thie 
 mines will not work 'tomorrow morning. 
 Very recently, just a few days ago, I 
 tejephoned down to the yards and ask- •' 
 ed them if the cars would be there by 
 four o'clock. They thought they would. • 
 They didn't get up until a few -mdnutos 
 
 -after four. The rniners met the cars ■: 
 
 ■ coming- down- Whefl-- they were goin^; in '^■ 
 ~'ttiefe' a-k'-'tas whistle ''blew,', but -naxt ' 
 
 day they didn't go to work. Now that 
 is the ruling emphatically. There 's 
 no geitting away from it aJt all; if they 
 are not in at four o'clock the previous 
 day they won't work. Now that is a 
 hardship, that rule. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Have you ever reported 
 that matter to Mr. Justl or your or- 
 ganization? 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— No, I haven't. 
 
 MR. Ry AN:— Then you deserve it. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I want to ask you 
 wheither these rullnga go. That has 
 been the ruling^ of that mine for very 
 near six months. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— The idea of re- 
 ferring that back for local settlement 
 is to get those people together on a 
 question of that kind. We could get 
 up here and spend two or three days 
 and then we couldn't agree upon the 
 condition of a mine or how the whistle 
 should blow in the mines and what 
 time. Some cars are placed by local 
 freights; others are placed by switch 
 engines. If you refer this matter back 
 and give them to understand they shall 
 take it up and adjust it locally, then 
 it will be adjusted satisfactorily to 
 both parties. 
 
 MR. J. J. WILSON:— I do not like 
 to sit silently back here and "hear Mr. 
 Newsam express himself in that way. 
 I was down at his mines I think about 
 two weeks ago, and if he isn't aware 
 of the fact it was settled satisfactorily 
 to both parties at that time in regard 
 to the flat question. Now, ilt has been 
 customary to leave one flat at night 
 so they could start in the morning; 
 then the next morning they would go 
 out there, the flat would be> loaded and 
 no more flats would come in; the men 
 would wait there for som-etimes possi- 
 bly a couple of hours, then they would 
 go back hoflie and some of them didn't 
 get a car at all. Now that is the con- 
 dition that prevailed there when I went 
 down there, and I suggested to them 
 if there were a-flaJt there to load in the 
 morning they were to go out and load 
 the flat, and after the flit was loaded 
 if there were no flats sent in by the 
 railroad company the men were to go 
 home. That is what was agreed on. 
 It is true that that company there has 
 not got a great amount of flats, and 
 they have to switch them at points 
 prior to the tim,e they reach Mr. New- 
 sam, and at times they are a little 
 later than others, but they certainly 
 can get up there by nine o'clock any 
 morning. We all know that. My at- 
 tention was called to a. place thaJt I was 
 sent to not over eight or ten days ago ' 
 where there were rnen had to come 
 three miles to their work, where they 
 were told the night before there would 
 be work. There were five flats and 
 one box car, and that was quite suffic- 
 ieht to run that little mine for two 
 da,ys. He brought them all thaJt dis- 
 t^LnceC ' When he got' them tbene in the 
 morning they' had to go home. ITiere 
 • was no work. ' Now- th@6e':are incidents 
 
292 
 
 Aftbrnoon Session, March 10. 
 
 that I can cite that prevail suround this 
 district, and we certainly should have 
 something done. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— What you have 
 been talking about now is down at the 
 Reed City mine. 
 
 MR. J. J. WILSON:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM:— Were you ever out 
 at the Star mines? 
 
 MR. J. J. WILSON:— I haven't been 
 out there. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— That is the mine I 
 refer to. I wasn't referring to the 
 Reted City mine at all. The mine I 
 was referring to was the Star mine. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I am in favor of 
 sending that back for local settlement. 
 We have got the best of the operators 
 here, the other fellow that doesn't live 
 up tO' anything is not here. I know 
 the operator in my district, the man 
 that I was working for last, has re- 
 fused to either blow a whistle when the 
 flats were in or when they were out, 
 or when there was work, and I have 
 known men to go four miles because 
 they couldn't find out whether there 
 was, work there till they went to the 
 mine, and he emphatically told us he 
 couldn't make any local ruling whether 
 he shoiuld blow a whiiste or let us 
 know whether he had flats or not, and 
 I think it is a good thing to let it go 
 back and catch these fellows that are 
 not just as fair as Mr. Newsam and 
 the operators who are here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— This is a matter that 
 I cannot see hoTv we are going to be 
 able to settle here. I admit It is a 
 matter that ought to be settled some- 
 where, but I know from experience al- 
 so that both the miners and the oper- 
 ators have taken unfair advantages in 
 this connection. W^e know that what 
 Broither Picton heipe staites is true; wfe 
 know that operators have continually 
 blown for work one, two, and three 
 days, and no flats in sight. Now, 
 certainly, as Mr. Cutts has stated, they 
 are in touch with the railroad com- 
 panies and know whether they are go- 
 ing to get cars in two or three days. 
 That I think Is very patent to every- 
 body. On the other hand we must 
 confess that we have known of cases 
 where the miners have gone home and 
 refused to work with the flats in sight. 
 I have known that to happen. I don't 
 propose to deny it at all. It happened 
 in the Springfield district. I think 
 Brother Morris will agree with me 
 that the miners have been just as bad 
 as the operators and the operators have 
 been just as bad as the miners. It is 
 a matter that I for one would not care 
 to vote one way or the other on here in 
 the way of settling it definitely. I 
 think it ought tO' be referred back 
 with the understanding the.; everybody 
 here will do the best they can to have 
 the things regulated so that neither 
 the miners nor the operators will suf- 
 fer. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— As Mr. CUtta 
 has said, we suffer from that local rule 
 because of the extent to which It Is 
 
 carried. Some locals will make an ar- 
 rangemeint that they will not go ito work 
 unless there are five cars on the track, 
 others ten, oltihers a half day's supply. 
 Now the operators when they blow for 
 work do it only after they have been 
 promised by the railroad company that 
 there will be cars. At any rate, I have 
 never known anything to the contrary. 
 But it often happens from engine fail- 
 ure, wnecks or something ot the kind, 
 that the flats do not arrive at the mine 
 in time. I do not think that operators 
 ever blow for work unless they have 
 received some notice from the railroad 
 company that there will be cars there. 
 Mr. Cutts' case in panticular is exitreme- 
 ly aggravating. The cars, as I under- 
 stand it from him, were all at the 
 mine, but they were not yet switched 
 on to the regular loading track at ten 
 minutes of seven, but at seven o'clock 
 they were all there; yet the men, as I 
 understand it, went home simply be- 
 cause the cars were not on the proper 
 track for loading at ten minutes of 
 seven. It was an extreme condition, 
 rather a bad one, and an annoying one 
 to him. It is a very difficult matter to 
 handle, and I don't know how you 
 could put any clause In here that will 
 .compel the men to do what they don't 
 want to do. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Either the miners or 
 the operators. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Well, I am on- 
 ly speaking for the operators. I don't 
 see how you can compel the miners as 
 a body Xo go to work if they declare 
 that tiiiey won'it. But Mr. Cutts' case 
 — the one that has given him so much 
 trouble, is one at Mount Olive, where 
 the cars were all at the mine, but 
 were not just on the right switch at 
 the right moment. , 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Now, Mr. Moorshea.3, 
 every place that these matters have 
 been called to our attention, I think 
 that every member of our executive 
 board here and the other miners that 
 are present will agree with me that we 
 have tried our best to control them. We 
 can cite you cases that are just as 
 bad as Mr. Cutts' was, where the min- 
 ers have gone to the mine in the 
 morning with no cars in sight, and the 
 superintendent in charge of the mine 
 would say they would be at the mine 
 in half an hour; the men went down 
 to work perfectly satisfied to do what 
 was absolutely right, did not question 
 his word, went down in the mine, and 
 probably an hour from the time word 
 was sent that there were no flats. This 
 aggravates the men, and you cannot 
 blame them. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- 1 think in that 
 case the operator had undoubtedly re- 
 ceived some assurance that the cars 
 were to be there. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The trouble is It has 
 happened repeatedly. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:- 1 know my 
 company has been a great sufferer, anfl 
 it has not been the miners' fault. We 
 had supposed there would be cars 
 
EvtNiNG Session, March 10. 
 
 293 
 
 there because they had been proinlsed 
 to us ^nd our men went to work and 
 worked for two hours when the cars 
 simply ran out. The train that was to 
 arrive in time to keep us going did not 
 come, and we held the men for as much 
 sometimes as two hours, and still the 
 cars didn't arrive. Well, we were los- 
 ers just as much as the miners were 
 losers, and were annoyed, because we 
 had kept the company men on, but I 
 hardly know how you can prevent it. 
 It is a very difficult problem. But Mr. 
 Cutts' case was an extraordinarily ag- 
 gravating one. 
 
 MR. JACKSON:— That rule has not 
 "beem 'in vogue at Mt. Olive for six 
 months. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— I thank you, Mr. Jack- 
 son for that statement. I had not 
 been advised. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— If I understand 
 it right, the operators through the. 
 different part of the states are suffer- 
 ing from local rulings, and not from 
 what I supposed if^this went back tO' a 
 local ruling— I mean a sub-district lo- 
 cal, to have the rules adopted in a sub- 
 district and let the same ruling cover 
 all of that sub-district. I know the 
 trouble has arisen in my district from 
 the different rulings of the different lo- 
 xals. I don't think that the operators 
 in our district will say that any rulings 
 that have been adopted or any agree- 
 ment that we have entered into in the 
 Springfield sub-district we have not 
 lived up to. There have been some 
 things adopted that it took us some 
 time to gelt in force, but they were 
 finally enforced, and I think if the 
 number of cars was referred back to 
 the sub-district for a local settlement 
 1here it would be entirely satisfactory 
 to both sides. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— In view of the assur- 
 ances that we have received here that 
 it is the intention of the officers of 
 the association to assist in remedying 
 any of these aggravating cases, we are 
 quite willing to withdraw the motion 
 with the consent of my substitute and 
 "have it taken up locally. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Then the amendment 
 offered bj5 Mr. Delehanty will cover the 
 question. 
 
 MR. CUTTS:— I don't think that will 
 "be necessary. There will be some ob- 
 jection made to that method of pro- 
 cedure. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — With that understand-, 
 ing I simply desire to ask President 
 Russell if he too coincides with the 
 statement I made, sio as to get it In 
 the record in regard to controlling this 
 matter the best we miners can in the 
 future, so there will be reason usied rel- 
 ative tO' Ithe miners going to work if 
 the cars are at the mine or can be got 
 in time to start ^vork within reason. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL: — I coincide with 
 what Mr. Ryan has sajd in regard to it. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— With that un- 
 derstanding the matter will be dropped. 
 
 Adjournment. 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 10, 1902. 
 
 The sub-committee was called to or- 
 der at 7:30 p. m. by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 THE SECRETARY:— Mr. Chairman, 
 there are five clauses In the sitate 
 agreements that are still pending. The 
 first, eighth, sixteenth, twenty-first 
 and twenty-ninth. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 section one of the present agrefement 
 by adding the folloTving words: "In 
 this or any sub-district or local agree- 
 ment made in pursuance thereof." If 
 this agreement does not provide for an 
 increase or a sub-district agreement 
 does not provide for it this would be 
 inoperative, but we frequently do make 
 sub-district and local agreements that 
 Indirectly increase the cost of produc- 
 tion in some particular. For instance, 
 if you were to advance one man's wag- 
 es ten cents a day that would increase 
 the cost of production. Now, there is 
 no intention in doing this to open the 
 way to any changes we have not in 
 view now. 
 
 MR. BENT: — A precedent was es- 
 tablished a year ago about that when 
 this was adopted. This is put in here 
 as a declaration of .the position in view 
 of the fact that the interstate conven- 
 tion has reaffirmed the scale and made 
 no advances, but provides for the in- 
 cidental changes that we make in the 
 state agreement. "Except as may be 
 provided," 'it says. Last year the prec- 
 edenjt was made before this was adopt- 
 ed — the record shows it — that we could 
 not be compelled to add to the cost of 
 our coal by any sub-district agreement. 
 It was stated that any little things 
 that were taken up voluntarily and 
 changed that had that indirect effect 
 would not be prohibited, but they would 
 have to be mutual, that the contract 
 insofar as things affecting the cost of 
 coal, was closed — closed there in 
 Springfield, and surely if we could close 
 it a year ago in Springfield in the 
 length of time we were there, we can 
 close It here in the length of time we 
 are taking this year. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I hardly understand 
 what this clause is intended to cover. 
 I don't know whether I gather it right 
 or not from Mr. Bent's remarks, that 
 it is intended that if we say we take, 
 for example, a sub-district meeting, 
 and this is intended that they may not 
 be able to meet any issue that may be 
 brought in a sub-district meeting. Is 
 that the intent of this, that it would 
 be against this agreement to under- 
 take toi force any issue that may be 
 brought forth in a sub-district meet- 
 ing; the question that might arise for 
 settlement. Is that what this is in- 
 tended to cover? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I couldn't hear that. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I said, gathering what 
 I could from your remarks led me to 
 think you intended this to cover any 
 gucFtion that might arise in a sub-dis- 
 trict meeting or issue to prevent any 
 
294 
 
 Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 attempt to force an agreement or any- 
 thing to be conceded by the operators 
 on- the part of the miners. Is that the 
 intent of this? 
 
 MR. BENT:— And ' also things that 
 add to the cost of coal, and to rule out 
 the questions that we have already dis-- 
 posed of in state convention. The In- 
 tent being to take up things that are 
 peculiarly local in their character, and 
 have not been threshed out in state 
 convention. The record shows how 
 carefully restricted the work of sub- 
 district meetings was to be last year, 
 and this is in pursuance of that. We 
 cannot go home and go over. this work 
 again. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I only want to under- 
 stand it, Mr. Bent. I would like to 
 know what it is we have to so up 
 against. Suppose we adopt this sec- 
 tion and we go home to a sub-district 
 meeting and some question may arise 
 or some demand be made on i one side 
 or the other or by the miners that 
 might increase the cost of coal indirect- 
 ly, something that had not been ar- 
 gued in our state or national conven- 
 tion, some question that neither thei 
 state nor the national agreement cov- 
 ered. Would this then prohibit the 
 miner from, forcing ^the issue in any 
 way? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yes, sir, it would add 
 to the cost of coal. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- Then that means if 
 we adopt this we simply have no re- 
 course in a sub-district convention. Mr. 
 Chairman, I don't understand that this 
 convention has the power to tie the 
 hands of a sub-district convention up- 
 on ajiy question wihii'ch has not 
 bee-n taken up by this oonvention, 
 any question we have taken up 
 and decided, whether it shall be 
 referred to the sub-dlsitridt . or made 
 a settlement of here, then certainly we 
 have a right to dictate to the sub-dis- 
 trict what they shall do in regard to 
 such a case; but for this convention 
 to dictate to the sub-district what it 
 shall do In matters and questions that 
 might arise in sub-district convention 
 that we have not had any knowledge 
 of here, that may not have arisen "Here, 
 I say it is beyond our province, we 
 have no right, and I do not see that we 
 can adopt that. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I Understand it is not 
 the idea of the operators to entirely 
 shut ofC the taking up for adjustment 
 purely local matters in the sub-district. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If it would increase 
 the cost of coal, it would. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Not if it doesn't In- 
 crease the cost of coal, Mr. Ryan, I 
 think that is the whole thing. This 
 is a declaration of principles, and we 
 take it that it is entirely within the 
 province of this convention to state 
 that the sub-district shall not do any- 
 thing to add to the cost of coal; and 
 we say it must make such a declnra- 
 tion here because we have reached the 
 limit of cost that we can bear. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— There are mat- 
 
 ters that have come up In sub-districts 
 year after year, and if we are going to 
 leave this convention and have the 
 record show up as Mr. Bent has stat- 
 ed it, we have got no duties for the 
 sub-district convention at all. If we 
 can do nothing but go there, call the 
 meeting to order, shake hands, have a 
 smoke and go home; it is well it should 
 be known here and be declared upon 
 the records. 
 
 MR. BENT;-v-Mr. Chairman, In a- 
 wbrd we are deciding here what the 
 cost of coal shall be before we sign 
 away our rights. We do not lose our 
 freedom here and make a binding con- 
 tract with you, without knowing what 
 our coal is going to cost. No business 
 man makes a bargain of that kind. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — Mr. Chairman, I 
 think that the Idea that to adopt a 
 clause of that kind carrying with it 
 the records that have been made al- 
 ready upon It, would be suicidal to our 
 organization. We have a sub-disitrict, 
 and If we would undertake to do such 
 a thing we might just as well say that 
 that sub-district should go out of ex- 
 istence; its power is taken away, arid 
 it is simply a sub-district In name on- 
 ly, an organization In name only, with- 
 out power. There are many questions 
 come up In different sub-districts of 
 which we as a body here today know ■ 
 nothing. They ipight or' might not in- 
 directly add to the cost of the produc- 
 tion of coal; questions tl^t should be 
 settled and some satisfactory arrange- 
 ment made about them. We are in- 
 capable today of deciding them. We 
 know nothing of them. We don't 
 have any idea of the nature of some 
 of them, and each district has Its own 
 peculiarities not commonly found in 
 other districts. Things might work alj 
 right In one district that would not ap- 
 ply to another on account of the dif- 
 ferent conditions surrounding the- 
 mines, and the work In the different 
 districts; and in my mind it seems to 
 me to be preposterous. You can read- 
 ily say here that you can't add to the 
 cost of coaJ by addling to the' mining 
 price or wage scale or things of that 
 kind, but If there Is a condition ' exist- 
 ing in any sub-district that is wrong 
 toward the miner it would be an utter 
 impossibility to right that without In- 
 directly adding to the cost of coal. I 
 don't care how slight it is. You could 
 not do it. You simply tie their hands: 
 and say there shall be no sub-district 
 meeting. That is the sum and sub- 
 stance of it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to asfc Mr, 
 Bent if that is the position the oper- 
 ators take. Is it your Intention Dot 
 to meet the miners as you have in 
 past years to adjust local matters? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Nov It is not the pur- 
 pose. We are willing to go there to 
 perform the functions we have per- 
 formed usually in the past, to go there 
 and settle local conditions that do not 
 relate to the cost of our coal, which w& 
 are considering here. We do not mean 
 
Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 295 
 
 to change in that respect. But Mr. 
 Perry told us last year in our sub-dis- 
 trict meeting that if we did not grant 
 certain things that would increase the 
 cost of coal there would be a strike, and 
 he didn't care whether the state con- 
 vention gave them thte right to make 
 those demands or not; that the men in 
 the third vein field would not stand it, 
 and that if we did not do certain things 
 there would be a strike, and we want 
 to have the thing settled here. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That was a change 
 which the operators demanded which 
 lessened the cost of the production of 
 coal. We have a ten-cent extra per 
 ton for double shift, and the operators 
 demanded that be taken off last year, 
 and we told them we wouldn't take it 
 off. I don't remember whether I made 
 the asisertion that Mr. Benit says I 
 did or not, but I know a sub-district 
 president told him at the time 'that if 
 the operators diiin't make the agree- 
 ment with us there would not be a 
 wheel turned in that sub-district the 
 following Monday morning. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The statement referred 
 tovwas not in connection with the tak- 
 ing ofC the doubte shift ten cents, for 
 that ten cents was waived by the op- 
 erators. That was not the question 
 that was being considered. We will 
 have stenographic reports of our pro- 
 ceedings hereafter. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I hope the committee 
 tonight will get down to business and 
 not travel around the wide scope we 
 did this afternoon. If we cannot dis- 
 cuss matters before the committee let 
 us vote on them and dispose of them. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I move to defer 
 action , on that thing. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There has been no mo- 
 tion made to adopt. We are discuss- 
 ing it without a motion. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move you that 
 any matter that has been taken up in 
 sub-district conventions previous to 
 this year, the miners shall have tlie 
 right to take up for readjustment in 
 the sub-district convention this spring. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Perry). 
 
 •(The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the motion was lost),' 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't see any need of 
 encumbering the record. We certainly 
 could not pass anything stated broad- 
 ly like that. We have already stated 
 we expect to go to sub-district meet- 
 ings In the usual way. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Bent has stated 
 they expected to go to the sub-district 
 conventions and fulfill the functions 
 that they have before, but he also stat- 
 es that they are hot going there 
 with the calculation — and they want 
 to make it binding here, that we shall 
 not even be allowed to discuss any 
 quiesitions that would advise there that 
 would tend to raise the cost of coal 
 either directly or indirectly. I ask yaa 
 is it possible to change any condition 
 that Is detrimental to the miners, no 
 matter how small it miglit be, without 
 adding to the cost of coal. What would 
 
 be the use of holding sub-district meet- 
 ings? 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I see no necessity of 
 either the miners or the operators 
 quibbling over this matter. When we 
 have our sub-district meeting we are 
 going to insist on anything being taken 
 up in those sub-districts that need ad- 
 justment as a sub-district matter, 
 whether you vote for it here or against 
 it. W^hether this clause is adopted and 
 amended or not amended we will take 
 up anything that needs adjustment in 
 the different sub-districts and adjust 
 them if we can just as we have done 
 for the last four years. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— With the understand- 
 ing that has been given tis by our 
 chairman In his last remarks, I' move 
 the adoption of the first clause of the 
 present agreem'enlt. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, you can 
 move what you feel like, but the un- ^ 
 derstanding doesn't go with it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Well, it does if my 
 motion goes. 
 
 MR. BENT:— What Mr. Ryan may 
 mean may be all right. We know what 
 we will do' in the sub-district, — and you 
 know what we will do. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Didn't I state it plain 
 enough ? 
 
 Mtl. BENT:— Oh, plain enough, 
 plenty. We don't know whether you 
 mean what we mean or not. We will 
 see. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — We will see when we 
 get there. ' 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— You ipean we will 
 go back in the sub-district from this 
 meeting' just as we always have aild' 
 that any sub-district matter that 
 should be taken up for adjustment we 
 propose shall be taken up In the sub- 
 districts and adjusted. That is what 
 we mean exactly. We have done that 
 under this agreement and under this 
 very clause, and if the clause is adppt- 
 ed we expect to do it in this coining 
 year. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— You understand the 
 dates will have to be changed to comply 
 with the present year. Ho'^ will the 
 operators vote? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, with the 
 understanding that there are no con- 
 ditions attached to this and it means 
 precisely what it says, we vote Aye. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 want to say right here and now that 
 the operators can't come here and ask 
 us to enter into an agreement in the 
 state of Illinois that will conflict with 
 the national agreement. The national 
 agreement has given us the right to 
 come back into the state and' take up 
 cur internal differences, prices and con- 
 ditions, and- there are things in the sub- 
 districts that cannot be settled here, 
 and we propose tO' go back into the 
 sub-districts and settle those things 
 that pertain to the sub- districts in the 
 sub-district meetings, as we always 
 have heretofore. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, that is 
 why we are here seititling these Internal ' 
 
296 
 
 EVBNING SBSSION, MARCH 10. 
 
 differences, and we said we expected to 
 go to the sub- district meeting and! trans- 
 act some business thiere that belong's 
 there. I don't know that there is any- 
 thing between us. "We don't understand 
 whait these things miean. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — It Is" the way we have 
 of trying to make each other under- 
 stand tilings that is wrong. 
 
 MR. F. J. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I want to say for Mr. Bent's infonna,- 
 tion as far as my district Is concerned, 
 that if there were anything to be taJi- 
 en up there that would not add in any 
 manner to the cost of producing the coal 
 either directly or indireictly I would not 
 make any kick here on Mr. Bent's sug- 
 gestion, but it is my intention that 
 ' there shall be matters taken up in our 
 sub-district that is going to cost, or is 
 going to add to the cost of producing 
 the coal "some way, or whether you are 
 going to add it to cost or to profit and 
 loss, I care not which. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Chairman, it 
 seems to me as though the operators 
 had come here this evening for a game 
 of bluff. Now, for one I don't beUeve 
 in the adoption of that clause wlBh the 
 understanding that the operators have, 
 for it is going to increase the cost of 
 production in this district before our 
 sub-district convention is held. I 
 want you to distinctly understand that 
 now. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— If that is the dec- 
 laration of the president ' of this dis- 
 trict, I want to assure him that it won't 
 do it. 
 , MR. PICTON:— All right. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I want to say here, 
 gentlemen, that this district itself has 
 got everything now agreed on, con- 
 tracted on, as to the rise and fall of 
 the price that is made now, and if he 
 had thought before he said that the 
 agreement is part of it, I don't believe 
 he would have said what he said. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I never took back 
 anything In my life that I said after 
 studying over it for an hour, and I am 
 not going to in this instance, and I 
 want to tell Mr. Newsam he knows as 
 well as I do there are places in this lo- 
 cality that there are things to be fixed 
 that are going to add to the cost of pro- 
 duction in the different mines. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 want to say as far 
 as our district is concerned, I don't 
 know of a solitary thing that is going 
 to come up in our district that is go- 
 ing to add to the cost of coal. There 
 Is only one little question that I ex- 
 pect will be brought up, and it was up 
 last year, and if there was any cost at 
 all attached to it it must be exceeding- 
 ly slight, it could not be more than one 
 millionth part of a cent, and I don't 
 see why Mr. Bent on his part, if he is 
 thinking that there is anything he is 
 afraid of, I want to- tell him that if 
 there is I know nothing of it. Now, 
 that is as honest as I stand here. Of 
 course I am not answerable for the 
 pcts and rights of other people who 
 may attend that convention, but per- 
 
 S'onally I know nothing that Is of much 
 moment that is going to come up at 
 cur sub-district, but nevertheless I for 
 one now with the declaration that has 
 been made on both sides, will not vo^e 
 for it. Cut it out and be done with it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If I were here repre- 
 senting the third vein field, Mr. Perry 
 and I could trade very easily, but 
 everything that I said was for the op- 
 erators of Illinois, already understand- 
 ing that that was the case In the third 
 vein field. It is the question Involved 
 here. Mr. Chairman, I am not in fav- 
 or of passing any resolution here at all 
 while there is a difference of opinion 
 as to what is meant or what is to be 
 done with It. This is the place for 
 everything to be talked to a finish be- 
 fore we pass anything. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— How do the 
 miners vote? 
 
 (The rriiners voted No and the motion 
 was declared lost). 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I move the adopt- 
 ion of the 21st clause of the present 
 agreement. (Seconded by Mr. Perry). 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — I move as a substi- 
 tute the clause proposed last night by 
 the operators, and I will ask the sec- 
 retary to read it. 
 
 (The secreitary read the clause refer- 
 red to, which already appears in this 
 record). 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I want to add to 
 that motion the usual protest of the 
 operators against the seven-cent dif- 
 ferential so that it may go on record. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— What is the use 
 of offering a motion to adopt that scale 
 as you have made it? Is it simply a 
 perfunctory motion that you want a 
 record on, or do you really expect that 
 we are going to agree with the opera- 
 tors in an inconsistency of this kind, 
 that where they suit you they shall re- 
 main, and where they happen to be un- 
 satisfactory to you they shall be re- 
 vised. Now, we had better quit joking 
 and be serious for a while. W^e are not 
 going to let the operators be the sole 
 judges of what the machine scale shall 
 be in Illinois. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I want to assure Mr: 
 Mitchell that this is no joking ma'cter 
 to me. It is a matter of very vital im- 
 portance, and I don't propose to leave 
 this convention and go home with a 
 big fight on my hands in that respect. 
 We are asking in that resolution that 
 the established divisions which have 
 not been in force for years be main- 
 tained; where they have not been es- 
 tablished legally, that they be taken up 
 in a proper manner and established. 
 There is nothing inconsistent in that 
 position. I fail to see where the opera- 
 tor is asking anything but what Is ab- 
 solutely fair and right and just, and 
 know of no reason why that clause 
 should not pass as proposed. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Well, it is not go- 
 ing to pass. If there is any attempt 
 made either in your sub-district or in 
 any other district on the part of the 
 miners or the machine runners or load- 
 
EvENisG Session, March 10. 
 
 297 
 
 ers or anyone else to perpetrate an in- 
 justice upon anyone who shares in the 
 division of the machine mining- scale 
 you have an avenue of redress. If the 
 division of the machine miners' scale 
 works a hardship on the operator, if it 
 Impedes the operation of his mine, if it 
 reduces the output of his mine you 
 have an avenue through which you can 
 seek redress. The officers of the organ- 
 ization in this state and of the national 
 have as much interest in seeing a fair 
 division of the machine mining scaJe 
 as you have, but where it is unfair it 
 ought to be revised whether that means 
 reduction in the loader price or reduc- 
 tion in the runner's price. Personally I 
 don't know anything at all about the 
 divisions in Illinois. I don't know 
 whether they are fair or not. I do 
 know that as far as your price is con- 
 cerned, it has been sustained by the 
 state organization. I know it was sus- 
 tained there at the time when I acted 
 with them, and while at that time per- 
 sonaJly I believed that the runners and 
 helpers would have made more money 
 than the loaders if their price was re- 
 duced half a cent. I want to say at 
 that time we did not have all the in- 
 formation we wanted on the subject. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 have gone through this thing once and 
 I know how it works. We had our 
 mine organized and working in good 
 shape. They got into a row between 
 the machine runners and the miners. 
 The machine runners quit; they tied 
 Tip the mine; they decreased our output 
 and demoralized things so we did not 
 get over it for, I was going to say six 
 months. We have now got that mine 
 ■organized again. It is running along 
 smoothly. We are getting a big ton- 
 nage. Now, if this thing comes up 
 again, and the delegates here repre- 
 senting the men in that district have 
 served notice on us, (they have said it 
 in this sub-commiti:ee) what they pro- 
 pose to do, they have made no hones 
 about telling that they were going to 
 ■change that rate, they have not takeji 
 the operators into account in the 
 slightest degree. They are simply go- 
 ing to do it because they have got the 
 necessary numbers to force it on. That 
 is what they propose to do. They are 
 gciing tO' arbitrarily change tha't rate 
 without right, justice or anything else. 
 Now, -we are the party that is inter- 
 ■ested in this business. W^e" don't think 
 it is a fair proposition for you to get 
 into a row among yourselves and make 
 us suffer for it. We have got our 
 money invested, we have got those ma- 
 chines, and we think we are entitled_t_o 
 protection, and we don't propose to put 
 new men on those machines to run 
 them, and burn out our armatures, de- 
 •crease the output of the mine and de- 
 moralize things generally. It is not a 
 fair proposition. That rate has been 
 ■established. It has been taken up and 
 confirmed, and in spite of all this our 
 miners there are going to arbitririly 
 reduce that rate and throw us into con- 
 
 fusion and cause us the loss of thous- 
 ands of dollars. Now, as I said before 
 we don't want that sort of thing and 
 are not going to have it if we can help 
 it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Delehanty if he has made any declara- 
 tion in this meeting as you have just 
 new given him credit for. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The record is open. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Deleh.anty if he made such a declara- 
 tion as j'ou are giving him credit for. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Do I under- 
 stand that that is that I was going 
 back and perpetrate a strike or tear 
 up this differential between the shoot- 
 ers and the loaders. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Yes. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— I propose to do 
 no such a thing, sir. I candidly say 
 that I am going to do no such a thing. 
 It is the least of my intentions to ore- 
 ate any trouble at all amongst your 
 shooters and loaders and your machine 
 men. But as I stated before I am here 
 representing these men, and they drew 
 out a set of resolutions and gave them 
 to me to present, they went into the 
 scale committee. The scale committee 
 for some reason best known to them-_ 
 selves referred this case, together with 
 all other cases, back to the sub-district 
 for adjustment. It wasn't Delehanty 
 that done it personally. lU was the 
 scale committee that done it, and when 
 this was done Delehanty wasn't in the 
 scale committee. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty, what 
 were your instructions from the local 
 regarding that division of that rate? 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:- My Instructions 
 Mr. Lukens, were to put in these reso- 
 lutions that the machine men should 
 get 5% cents and the 1% cents should 
 go to the shooters and loaders, or to 
 make the best terms possible for them. 
 Now, I will tell you, Mr. Lukens, and 
 I propose to tell you candidly whait I 
 did propose tO' do. It was my inten- 
 tion to let it go as we thought fit here 
 and let it go back into the sub-district 
 and I intended to use what influence I 
 could with those men down there to 
 modify this thing- to some extent if 
 not to crush it altogether., I did really 
 intend to do that, but the way it is 
 going now you would think I was try- 
 ing to force a flght on to you. I want 
 this thing to he acted on. There is , 
 no mistake about it, if it is not acted 
 on here it ought tO' be acted on in the 
 -sub-district. Now, let me tell you 
 again, Mr. Lukens, that I can't see any 
 good reason why you should uphold the 
 machine runners as much as you do 
 both up here and down there for the 
 simple reason that you haven't got a 
 class of men in your mine who make 
 you as much trouble as they do, and I 
 know it. I can cite you instances where 
 Ihey have made you any amount of 
 trouble for no reason at all. They 
 made you trouble and they made 
 e-very man in- the mine trouble. You 
 know the case when your superintnd- 
 
298 
 
 Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 ent asked me, when I was on the pit 
 commlittee, ajid w© diid as hei requested, 
 to lay all o-f your machine runners off 
 for a week, and then by the request of 
 the machine runners they came to the. 
 pit committee again and asked them to 
 go tO' Mr. Lukens and see if they could 
 not go back to their work again, that 
 they wouldn't be so hasty in the future 
 as to run away from the pit in the night 
 when they didn't get the powder, and 
 I went to you and we fixed it up 
 amongst the committee and let the 
 men go back to work again. Now that 
 is something that the shooters and 
 loaders never did down there on you. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Delehanty, I 
 want to say I don't want you to think 
 that this is a personal matter. I do 
 not consider it so. You are simply 
 here carrying out your instructions 
 from the local, and your instructions 
 are to change that from seven cents to 
 5% cents. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY: — Those were my 
 instructions, and if not to get the best 
 terms possible. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— A person wpuld 
 Imagine from the resolution of Mr. 
 Lukens that the machine men were 
 the only ones in the state of ^Illinois 
 dissatisfied with the present division of 
 the machine rate. There are lots of 
 men in every district, loaders, that are 
 dissatisfied with their division. There 
 are machine men in each district that 
 are not satisfied with their division, but 
 that is not any reason why it is going 
 to be changed. If every man who is 
 dissatisfied with their division, eith- 
 er loader, helper or machine man, is 
 going to bring his troubles up here and 
 block and stop this meeting, I think 
 we would have very little to do. Ac- 
 cording to that, if that resolution were 
 passed, or that amendment to this 
 clause, it would prevent us in our dis- 
 trict (the Belville district) from mailing 
 some changes that might be necessary. 
 It would prevent any other district, and 
 that woxLld' be neither jusit nor fair. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Mr. Reynolds, if 
 that clause is not satisfactory, suggest 
 something that will protect us so we 
 will be on the safe side, and we will as- 
 cept it. We don't want to cause any- 
 body any embarrassment. We don't 
 want to cause any delay at all, but we 
 feel that we are entitled to be protect- 
 ed, and we want to be in this matter 
 so that we won't have the trouble that 
 we foresee. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Do you want a 
 clause in there that will protect the 
 runners. You have just as good a right 
 to ask a clause that will protect every 
 other class of labor. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I didn't say any- 
 thing about the runners. I said pro- 
 tect us. That is, protect the conipany 
 9 gainst loss. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I want to say to 
 you that from experience we know we 
 are better able to settle that question 
 than the operators are. We have prov- 
 en that in every place where the ques- 
 
 tion has been brought up, and the op- 
 erators had a hand in it. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It did not prove very 
 successful down at Mr. Peters mine. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— The question at. 
 Mr. Peters' mine was settled according 
 to the agreement that was entered in- 
 to first in the sub-district and then ini 
 the local, and disinterested parties 
 •were brought in, and the question was- 
 decided just exactly as it was agreed to 
 in the sub-district convention. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Well, I am not dis- 
 puting that, but I say you were not 
 very successful. You tied his mine up- 
 for the last year and cut his output 
 down fully a third, and caused him a 
 loss of hundreds and probably thous- 
 ands of dollars on his machines by the 
 excessive amount of repairs that he had 
 to have on account of the poor ma- 
 chine runners. 
 
 That is certainly not a very success- 
 ful settlement in that particular case.. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I notice In two or 
 three different cases where one mine- 
 has delayed the progress of this meet- 
 ing for days and days. If we want, to 
 take up the grievance of every parti- 
 cular mine in the state of Illinois, for 
 other classes of labor we could stay 
 here for the balance of the year, and 
 we never would come together. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 want to state- 
 that there are three machine mines in 
 that locality and we had a complaint 
 from that one mine, Mr. Peters' mine. 
 Now I have a letter here from two of 
 the machine runners. I don't know 
 wbether that rate there Is fair or not, 
 I never took it up myself. It was tak- 
 en up by a disinterested board, as I. 
 explained last night Two boards had 
 that case up. I have a statement here 
 from two machine men where they say- 
 it is the breakage of the machines and. 
 not keeping the water out of the place 
 that has caused the decrease In the out- 
 put. If Mr. Peters is present I would 
 like to read the letter. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask Mr.. 
 Lukens if the arrangement he desires 
 the machine runners to get was not. 
 granted him during the last year. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— It was. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^What causes have ycu 
 got to complain in regard to the treat- 
 ment that you received along that line 
 from our organization? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— We haven't any par- 
 ticular cause to complain Mr. Ryan, as 
 to what has happened in the past, ex- 
 cept as to this one particular time that 
 I tell you about, where everything was 
 disorganized and torn up, but — that lo- 
 cal down there, Mr. Ryan, while or- 
 dinarily they are decent and nice fel- 
 lows and get along first rate, once in a 
 while will take a crack at a thing and 
 get the bit in their teeth and make- 
 some mighty bad breaks. And there 
 is no heading them off until after they 
 do it and the damage is done. Then 
 they are apparently sorry for it, but 
 that doesn't put the dollars back into 
 our pockets or into theirs. Now, ini 
 
Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 299 
 
 this case, they have instructed Mr. De- 
 lehanty to' do certain things. They did 
 not consult me about it. I know noth- 
 ing about the actions of the local there 
 except what I learned accidentally. 
 They simply took the question up with- 
 out consulting the operators in the 
 slightest degree ajid proposed to change 
 that thing to suit themselves, regard- 
 less of whether it affected us or not. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— To-u don't expect the 
 members of the local are going to ask 
 your -advice in regard to what instruc- 
 tions to give their delegate? 'We might 
 as -well complain that the operators did 
 not consult us in regard to drawing up 
 this proposed agreement of theirs. It , 
 would be just as reasonable. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That is not A fair 
 proposition, Mr. Ryan. This is a mat- 
 ter that we are just as much interest- 
 ed in as the miners, and the machine 
 operators, anji we are entitled to be 
 heard on that proposition. If they 
 wanted an advance in the mining rate, 
 it would be proper to instruct their 
 delegate to try to get it; but take' a 
 matter of that kind, that we are inter- 
 ested in just as much or more than they 
 are, I think we are entitled to be con- 
 sulted. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Lukens if he thinks the min- 
 ers' delegates are going to get 75 per 
 cent of what they were instructed to 
 get. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— Well, I don't think 
 they will get within 100 per cent. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— No, there is a 
 good deal that they were instructed to 
 get that they won't get, and it is "a 
 mighty poor thing to base your fear on, 
 — the Instructions of any delegate. I 
 know a good many delegates from our 
 district that were instructed to get 
 things that they will go home without, 
 and it is a queer thing to be bothered 
 by the instructions on one thing when 
 we have three propositions to consider. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— According to the state- 
 ment of Mr. Delehanty he is in this 
 convention without any instructions^ 
 He was told to get a certain price for 
 the loaders or the next best he could. 
 Those are no instructions at all. 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— I have not heard the 
 men from Mr. Lukens' mine say they 
 were going to raise any trouble over 
 the division of this machine rate. They 
 were asking that the rate be revived — 
 be taken up by an arbitrary board, if 
 you please, or any other way to equal- 
 ize, not entirely but as nearly as possi- 
 ble the wage earning power between 
 the machine men and the men who load 
 after. Now when the rate was first 
 fixed at that place — I want to say the 
 rate never was fixed permanently — 
 when the machines first went in every- 
 body was green on the machines; there 
 were men forced on the machines that 
 were not competent miners. The rate 
 was first fixed at five cents. The ma- 
 chine men were new then, and green, 
 and could not cut any coal to amount 
 to anything, and it was taken up in the 
 
 local and changed from 5 to 5% cents. 
 The loaders voluntarily gave another 
 half cent. Now. when the nine-cent 
 advance was given, there was quite a 
 kick then, about the rise of that nine 
 cents, and the only reason they got 
 their equal division of that nine cents 
 was the agreement that was made at 
 Indianapolis at that time said that 
 they should have their ratio of the nine 
 cents, and they kicked for it and got it. 
 There Isn't a bigger set of kickers 
 around the mine than the machine 
 men — with all due respect to the ma- 
 chine men. I used to be one of them 
 myself. Now if the machine men at 
 Virden or anywhere else — I believe 
 there are peculiar fields In that dis- 
 trict that will not be changed at all— r 
 I am satisfied the men don't want the 
 rate changed simply because the wage 
 earning power in that mine is more 
 equal than it is in the other mine — sure- 
 ly we ought all to court an investiga- 
 tion at least. If we pass a resolution 
 like that here we can make no investi- 
 gation of the machine rate at any of 
 those mines in that district. We have 
 simply got to leave the rate the same 
 as it was last year. I am satisfied, and 
 as far as I am concerned, I will use all 
 my power to keep any troxible from 
 arising in the district, but if it can be 
 shown that the rate is on an equal 
 basis at seven cents and 35 cents re- 
 spectively, I am satisfied that it be 
 left that way. If it cS-nnot be showB 
 that way, I believe the influence of our 
 organization will be used' to compel 
 machine men to work at whatever rate 
 is fixed if we think it is equity. Now 
 that is the way I feel about it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Cahill, are you a 
 member of the local that superintends 
 Mr. Lukens' mine at Virden? 
 
 MR. CAHILL:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. DELEHANTY:— Now, Mr. Pres- 
 ident, Mr. Lukens 'is hollering before be 
 has reason to holler. That same con- 
 tention has been made in that field for 
 the last two years, and the price has 
 never dropped from seven cents yet, 
 and I doubt if it ever will. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— The proposition that 
 comes from the operators will if agreed 
 to, fasten the rate for all but the ma- 
 chine runners in Williamson county 
 and some of the mines in the Peoria \ 
 district. W^e want to be perfectly fair 
 with the operators and meet them half 
 way or more than half way by making 
 this sort of a proposition. If they will 
 agree to meet the miners and fasten a 
 rate throughout the entire state of Ill- 
 inois,- for the machine loaders who are 
 working in those two districts as well 
 as the other districts that are not men- 
 tioned, then I will favor the adoption 
 of/ your motion. Unless you do that I 
 will be opposed to it. The reason I 
 make that proposition is because I be- 
 lieve the operators are asking the min- 
 ers to grant them something that will 
 satisfy but a few. The reason why I 
 make this counter proposition is be- 
 cause if it is m^t it wall satisfy the men. 
 
300 
 
 Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 I want to say that we have many more 
 machine loaders in the district of this 
 state who are dissatisfied, and they 
 will outnumber any machine men that 
 you are here for the purpose of getting 
 a rate for. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That is what we ob- 
 Jeot to. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I don't think it is fair 
 you should come at this time and ask 
 us to do that ajid not include the lyrop- 
 osition that may cosine from the oth- 
 er disitricts. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I ddd not catch your 
 proposition. "Will you please repeat it. 
 
 MR. HBFTI:— If you want to> cover 
 the proposition right quick I will moke 
 Ht. Le't us open up 'the entire quiestion. 
 We are ready to open up the entire 
 question of the division of the machine 
 mining rate. 
 
 MR. LUKENS: — Do you mean open it 
 up here? 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— No, open it up in thie 
 districts. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— You mean a 
 conveation of all of the machine mine 
 interests. 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — I mean to open it up 
 in the various places where it was 
 agreed- to and settled. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— That means to have 
 the miners and machine runniers open 
 It up, or include the operators? 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — Include the miners. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Woud it not 
 have the effect of doing it without that 
 resoution. 
 
 -MR. HEFTI:— I think It would 'have 
 that effect. I think we will give your 
 machine men all the satisfaction they 
 are looking for. You are not saying a 
 word about the loaders. It is about the 
 machine men and about yourself and 
 when I proposed to open up this propos- 
 ition, I am speaking for ail the men in 
 thestate of Illinois, for all the machine 
 men. 
 
 (The miners' committee then retired 
 at the request of President Russell 
 and after they returned the meeting 
 proceeded as follows): 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The question be- 
 fore the meeting is to substitute for t)he 
 21&t clause of the present agreement the 
 modified clause as presented by the op- 
 erators last night. 
 
 (The operaors voted Aye, and the 
 miners voted No, and thte substitute 
 was lost). 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Was there a motion 
 made to adopt the 21st clause? 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Mr. Jeremiah 
 moved that the 21st clause of the pres- 
 ent agreemietat be adopted, and it was 
 seconded. 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— I desire to offer an- 
 other amendment to the original mo- 
 tion as follows: "The division of the 
 machine mining rate shaJl be fixed in 
 the joint sub-district meeting." (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Cutlts.) 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the amendment was 
 carried.) / 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the 21st clause as amended, with the 
 protest of the operators accompanying 
 it (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I think we wi;l 
 file a protest against your protest. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the motion was car- 
 ried.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the committee's substitute for the 16tli 
 clause of the present agreement. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Lukens.) 
 
 (The secretary then read the pro- 
 posed 16th clause, which already apr- 
 pears in ithis record.) 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Accompanying that 
 report of the special committee was a 
 statement which it was desired to have 
 go into the record, viz: "And the min- 
 ers request It understood that the op- 
 erators are expected not to abuse the 
 spirit or the intent of this clause oy 
 unnecessarily causing men to lose time 
 when places are out of order." 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I do not .think there 
 Is a committee man here vsrho desires 
 to lose Slight of the one bone of con- 
 tention that we have in the first dis- 
 trict in the Wilmington field, and to 
 adopt that as had been proposed nere 
 simply means that the miners must 
 recede from their position which they 
 have taken in the matter of wages, 
 scale and prices in the first district. It 
 is an impossibility to get a unanimous 
 consent to the adoption of that report. 
 There isn't a man from the first district 
 who would not protesit against it. You 
 may force us to accept it. If you do 
 it will be under protest, because it 
 says, "In long wall mines it shall in- 
 clude the proper mining of the coal 
 and the brushing and care of the 
 working places and roadw^ay according 
 'to the present method and rules relat- 
 ing thereto, which shall continue ur.- 
 changed." You all know that the fight 
 in the Wilmington field is upon tha 
 question of conditions, the method of 
 caring for roadways. Certainly this 
 committee will not adopt the 16th clause 
 of the report of that committee and 
 forever close any avenue we may have 
 of righting that condition and better- 
 ing it. I would like to add further, 
 Mr. President, that it looks to me a. 
 good deal like a subterfuge to get away 
 from the request of the first district. 
 Adopt that and we drop all other de- • 
 mands. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Will you say who re- 
 sorted to that subterfuge? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— No, I do not. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Whom do you accuse 
 of it? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If I should venture to 
 I should accuse the operator, because 
 that is what he is working for. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is anything but a. 
 subterfuge. It says so in so many 
 words. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It is not a subterfuge; 
 it is a substitute. 
 
Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 301 
 
 MR. BBNT^:— We will put it in so 
 many wards. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: —Mr. ChairmEm, 
 there is no difference in the position of 
 the miner's now than there was this 
 fcrenoion. We cannot vote for that por- 
 tion of it that has reference to Ithe long 
 wall mine, unless we know that the 
 operators of the Wilmington field are 
 not going to Interpre't the usual rules 
 05- methods to mean that me'n must 
 clear falls that come on their roadway 
 after they have complied with all the 
 provisions of the contract. If the oper- 
 ators are willing to say that they will 
 •take up in the sub-district convention 
 In the Wilmington field the question for 
 adjudication, the question of cleaning 
 falls that come on a roadway after the. 
 provisions of the contract have been 
 complied with, and the roads brushed 
 four feet high, we are saJt'isfled to have 
 It go back there for adjudication. 
 
 MR. BENT: — It seems to me that if 
 that is the posltdoin of the miners, our 
 position being what it is, it would be 
 best to defer action on that paragraph, 
 and I move you that we defer. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Garrison.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Before thait matter is 
 voted on it might be well for the com- 
 mitttee to understand how long this 
 ds going to be deferred. We do nolt ask 
 the operators to say liere or to tell 
 of any other plans they may have in 
 regard toi this matter, but we feel 'that 
 it is pretty near timie that we were go- 
 ing to our convention, and if thoise 
 things can be disposed of tonight they 
 certainly ought to be disposed of. At 
 the same time I w^anlt to repealt what 
 is said here before, and practically con- 
 cur In what President Mitchell has 
 said, that we certainly will insist upon 
 some method of getting around this 
 question of the Wilmington field. From 
 what we know of this matter, the ex- 
 ptrience we have had during the last 
 year, we know that alt least some of 
 the officials here will have a good deal 
 of work to do the coming year along 
 the same line. Tou people may not 
 know It, but wie do. I know there is 
 some of you know that Board Member 
 Wilson and Vice Presiident Reynolds 
 in particular have had an immense 
 amount of work to do the last year 
 to keep down friction in regard to this 
 matter in the Danville district. We 
 know^ fbSey will do it again. I don't be- 
 lieve we have had two men on our ex- 
 ecutive board who worked^ any harder 
 than they did on this proposi'tion. Now 
 I feel we will have the same work to do 
 In your part of the state we did last 
 year; no matter what you adopit It will 
 have to come up. We are ready to 
 meet that question. But this is a 
 peculiar case in th« Wilmington field. 
 We contend those men are entitled to 
 that relief, and even If the miners In 
 the Wilmington field will vote for thalt 
 to gO' throug'hi it will go throug'h un- 
 der our protest and with the distinct 
 understanding that if we can get any 
 
 relief there, agreement or no agree- 
 ment, we are going to get it. I speak 
 now as a miner from the Wilmington, 
 field. 
 
 MR. SMITH:— I want to say that 
 Brother Ryan has spoken my senti- 
 menlbs as far as the Wilmington field 
 is concerned, and' the ".ommittes might 
 just as Well know it now as later that 
 we certainly are going to get sornie re- 
 lief along those lines. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 desire to add one 
 more word. That, speaking for the 
 mliners of that field, we are willing to 
 accept any reasonable proposition that 
 will get us out of that tangle. We are 
 not' going to stand on technicalities. 
 Any tWing. within reason thait will tend 
 tO' g'ive ithose miners the relief they are 
 entitled tO'. We are not going tO' take 
 ani airblitrary posiitlon, that will tie up 
 this conmiUtee Or the full committee 
 or the convention, not by any means, 
 but we do ask for justice for these men 
 and nothling more. Are you ready to 
 vote on the motion to defer? 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the motion was adopt- 
 ed.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 thei 14th clause of the operaJtors' pro- 
 posed scale. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— We have not delayed 
 discuesiing thia paragraph on account 
 of our in difference to the subject mat- 
 ter, or because we did not intend to 
 press the matter vigorously when, the 
 proiper time came, but simply because 
 we wtished to take it up separately from 
 other matters when we had cleared up 
 as far as po'ssatale the other questions 
 that concern us. This paragraph vit- 
 ally concerns our Interests, and Is 
 equally importajit to you. • Two years 
 ago we had most serious trouble 
 through the interruption of work in 
 v<ialation of the agreement. The record 
 a year ago is full of recognition on the 
 partt of 'the miners of that fact, and we- • 
 pressed until the very close of the con- 
 vention a penalty clause of thi^ gen- 
 eral character. Finally the, miners told 
 US— and it is a part of the record — that 
 they had them'selves taken measures: 
 which they believed would be suflicient 
 to enadioayte the evil, and pledged us 
 the enforcing of the provisions which 
 they then, put in their constitution for 
 the punishment of locals and men who 
 violated the contract. We have no' de- 
 sire tO' criitioise t!he good faith and the 
 good intentions of the state ofllcials un- 
 der that understanding a year ago ; but 
 our record's show numerous cases where- 
 the mines were thrown idle in flagrant 
 disregard of the contract, and while the- 
 state officialB have always recognized 
 that fact and used their influence to- 
 cause a resumption of work, we have 
 sustained heavy loss all over the state- 
 on account of it; and only in compar- 
 atively few cases, if we are correctly 
 informed, has 'that penalty promised us 
 a year ago been enforced. It was said 
 to us a year ago that if the provislans; 
 which you had taken within your or- 
 
302 
 
 Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 gajilzatlon proved to be InsuflBclent and 
 the evil complauined of earlsted In, any 
 important degree, 'that you would be 
 prepared a year hence to take up with 
 us a joint plan to prevent the thing, 
 on th« line of some penalty provislonB. 
 We refer you to the records of our com- 
 mission to show h'ow many cases of this 
 kind have occurred; how much money 
 it has cost us; and, notwithstanding 
 the good Intention of your organlzartllon, 
 how insuffloiient the plan this last year 
 has been, and we ask the adoption of 
 this clause. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 have no wish tov and I do not intend to, 
 enter into any a«-gument on this mat- 
 teir at this time. I desire simply to 
 make a statement. Last year when 
 the agreement was formulated we were 
 comiwlled 'to go out in the state and 
 fight our men into line under that 
 agreement. In several of the sub-dls- 
 tricts inddgnation meetings were held 
 and the officials were forced to attend 
 those meetings and explain our agree- 
 menit to the miners as best we could. 
 We have been fighting constantly to 
 compel them to live up to that agree- 
 ment during the year. The miners 
 have come here alt this time expecting 
 modifications in the present agreement. 
 We have so far received very few mod- 
 ifications. In regard to the Illegal 
 strikes, there is not an operator nor 
 an operator's commissioner who cannot 
 say that they have decreased to a won- 
 derful extent In the state of Illiniois 
 during the past year. This proposition 
 of tlhie operators oajne to us lasit year. 
 We refused it then and fought against 
 it, and I wish simply to say that we, 
 as a oommittee. at this time, do not 
 propose to argue this matter at all. 
 We do not propose to waste ajiy time 
 upon it. The agreement as it stands 
 Tiow, and as we have agreed to it so far, 
 is as heavy as it will be possible to 
 get through our miners' convention. In 
 fae't, I apprehend the greatest difficulty 
 In passing the agreement we have 
 reached so far upon ithis sub-scale com- 
 mii'ttele before the miners' convention at 
 this time, for never before in the his- 
 tory of the United Mine Workers of 
 Illinois or of this joint movement was 
 there as determined a convention as 
 that which has m,et in Peoria this year. 
 The agreement then, as I have said, 
 is now of such a character that we do 
 not believe we will have an easy task 
 in geitting the miners to ratify it, and 
 it Is utterly impossible to attempt to 
 argue this matter, and we, as a com- 
 mittee', will not. I simply desire to 
 make this as a statement, g'iving you 
 our reasons for making the statement, 
 and that is all as far as this sub-com- 
 miittee Is concerned. We shall vote 
 against that proposition made by the 
 operators and know •when we are vot- 
 ing against it that it had just as well 
 "be voted against here as to carry it 
 into th'e conventioh and there allo'W the ' 
 miners to vote against it and throw'-' 
 
 out the entire agreement that we l.ave 
 reached so far. 
 
 MR. BEiNT:— The operators desire to 
 ask whether you 'have in your state 
 consti'tutdtm the same provisions for 
 dealing with the men for violating the 
 contrac't, stopping the mines, that you 
 had a year ago? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Tes, sir; we have 
 the same provisions and I think that 
 our constitution Is more stringent this 
 year than last. 
 
 MR. BENT:— And we would like to 
 ask if that is so, Mr. Chairman, if you 
 propose to enforce those provisions to 
 the extent of your ability, as you said 
 a year ago? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— Mr. Bent, Mr. Ryan 
 has called' my attention to something, 
 namieily, that our constitution passed 
 through our convention this year and 
 hiad a much larger vote on every sec- 
 tion of it than it did last. 
 
 MR. RYAN:- To qualify that state - 
 mient of Mr. Russell's— that particular 
 olausle went through far more unani- 
 mously this year than it did last. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I wish to state to 
 thei commi'ttee, as I stated last year, 
 that as' far as I have the ability I pro- 
 pose to see that that constitution Is 
 carried ouit. I wish to make a state- 
 ment, possibly explanatory, as to the 
 carrying out of tlio constitution last 
 year. I wish to say this, that hoindreds 
 of dollars have been paid in the state 
 of Illinois in fines last year by miners 
 and by drivers, who could Ul afEord 
 the money; but nevertheless it was paid 
 because tlhie' constitution provided tha/t 
 it should be paid. I desire to say here 
 In regard to the Illegal strikes that 
 have taken place in ttoe state of lUlnods 
 during the past year that aJmost all 
 of them have been strikes thait have oc- 
 curred where, if 'thie miners had re- 
 mamed at work until somebody in 
 authority had gonte to tlhem, thiey would 
 certainly have been called upon a 
 strike. The provocation was preat 
 enough in almosit every insltaw-* to 
 have justified them in striking. The 
 wrong committed by the miners was 
 in the violation of the agreement In 
 not carrying out the agreement and 
 our constitution and quitting Work be- 
 fore thieiy were called out by some one 
 in authoriltly. I desire also to say tto-t 
 in otheir Instances we have refrained 
 from assessing fines prescribed by our 
 constitution because to have done so 
 would have 'tied up mines and worked 
 an injury to the operator wTno -would 
 have beeln Involved by It. There were 
 a large number of miners invol-ved In 
 the matter, and to have assessed the 
 fine meant the closing down of those 
 minels for perhaps a week or two weeks 
 at a time, and the operators certainly 
 would have been 'the sufferers. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, in view 
 of 'the answer made to our inquiry, and 
 in view 'of the statement previously 
 madei by President Russell as to the 
 reason for not gi-vlng us the penalty 
 clause whItK we feel that we ought to 
 
BvENiNG Session, March 10. 
 
 303 
 
 liave and need, the motlan which we 
 mad© Is withdrawn. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Beforei proceeding to 
 the consideratlion, of any other question, 
 .and without any diesiire toi pnxvoke any 
 controversy, but Simply to preseHt our 
 side of the question w'hich has been 
 discussed, I (Jesire to say that while 
 1 appreciate the dlCBculty that has 
 oftein surroiundied the officials of. the 
 miners' organization in Imiposlng the 
 penalty prescribed by their constitu- 
 tion, I do not agree with Mr. Russell 
 that the strikes were In any siense jus- 
 tified as claimed by him. There majy 
 "have been Illegal strikes that perhaps 
 would have been justified in times gone 
 "by; but under the agreesnents that now 
 exist or under the agreements that have 
 exlsited during the past yed,r, those 
 strikes should not have occurred: I 
 wajit to say also, Mr. Chairman, that 
 wWle those strikes were in direct vio- 
 lation of the agreement, 1 think that 
 a good many, of them should have been 
 punished enitirely independenjt of that 
 clause In our contract which provides 
 that work shall continue pending an 
 inveStSgatlon of any existing trouble. 
 I think, Mr. Chairman, it is fair to 
 the operator, is fair to 'the commisslbn, 
 and It is due to me personally to make 
 this statement, and as I said at the out- 
 set. It is not in any controversial spirit; 
 it is with no desire to provoke any feel- 
 ing upon the part of 'the miners' of- 
 ficials, but It is simply for the purpose 
 of keeping our records clear and letting 
 it be understood that the operators and 
 the operators' commission do nrOt be- 
 llieve that thiesie strikes should have 
 been allowed to go unpunished in view 
 of the. provisions of the constitution of 
 the United Mine Workers of America. 
 
 MR. RUSSELLi:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 desire to correct Mr. Justi. I desire to 
 say that the records wiill not show 
 that I said these strike® were justified. 
 I said that the provocation was great 
 enough to justify the miners in com- 
 ing upon strike had they remained at 
 work until some one in authority had 
 called them ' upon a strike. 
 
 I desire aJso., while upon my feet, 
 without any inclination toi hold a con- 
 troversy with Mr. Justi, or wi'tlh the 
 operators of Illinois, to say that we 
 are willing and stand willing at any 
 time to take up the provocation of 
 these strikes that I allude to, and dis- 
 cuss them befOT-e anyone, i 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Is the powder commit- 
 tee ready to report? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Your committee, 
 after having several meetings and talk- 
 ing this matter over at considerable 
 length, has finally decided to recom- 
 mend the present clausie in the agree- 
 mient, clause eight, and I move its 
 adoption. (Seconded by Mr. Garrison.)- 
 
 MR. CAHILiL:-^! am in hearty sup-, 
 port of thef clause as it is brought in 
 ^by the committee, but I believe that 
 • pbie- operator should keep at least two 
 brands of powder- in; the powder house. 
 ■ NQB^.-tbereisa great;dea;l of complaint; 
 
 throughout the state over the powder 
 queatdon and I believe that If It is 
 taken back toi the convention -with the 
 clause that Is in here now there may 
 be a possibility of it being defeated en- 
 tirely. Because the men are all of the 
 opinion that the powder should be 
 boug'ht in the open market. The great 
 reason for that is because thiey can't 
 get the grade of powder that they ask 
 for. Now, you can hardly attribute 
 that to any one district, and I believe 
 that this would take a great deal of 
 care from the shoulders of the men 
 throughout the sitate who are coming 
 here to have at least two grades of 
 powder. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— I am a good deal of 
 the same opinion as Mr. Cahlll, as re- 
 gards this clause defeating the whole 
 agretement. There has been a great 
 kick in the eighth district reg'ardlng 
 the men being compeJled to buy powder 
 ft-om the operators. They have come 
 here very nearly to a delegate! with a 
 demand! that they should have the priv- 
 ilege of buying in the open market. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— I wish to say in re- 
 gards to the keeping of two kinds of 
 powdter in the powder house, if I were 
 to put in twO' binds in any of my pow- 
 der houses, I -would have a strike the 
 first daj^. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then don't put them 
 In. 
 
 MR. NEWSAM:— There is only one 
 kind goes now. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— The committee 
 talked that matter over, too. That 
 question was raised by the miners' 
 committee and' tb© operators claimed 
 that under the present clause -wte were 
 fully protected In that respect; that 
 If there -was any dispute in regard to 
 the powder that .was being furnlshfed 
 that the matter could be taken up and 
 by a test, according to the agreement, 
 the gr^-de of powdter which suited that 
 particular mine, would be the grade 
 that would be furnished. I know that 
 down in our district we had some 
 trouble in that respect during the last 
 year. One mine in particular that I 
 call to mind at present, we went to 
 that mine, tested the powder, and the 
 company furnished us thie grade that 
 we decided on was thte best suited for 
 that particular mine. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, 'and the mo'tlon Was adopt- 
 ed.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I mo-vte' that 'the scale 
 for third vein and associaited mines, 
 including t-wenty-four inches of brush- 
 ing, be -^76 cen'ts; Wilmington and as- 
 sociated mines, including CardifE, long- 
 wall and Bloomlngton thin vein, includ- 
 ing brushing, 81 cents ; Clarke City, 
 lower seam, brushing in ooal, 66 cents. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— Let the record show 
 that is the first district 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, thfe min- 
 ers voted No", and the motHfen waalost.) 
 - MR:. GARRISON; "-4-i:ni'(Jve you that 
 
304 
 
 Evening Session, MarcS 10. 
 
 the ra'te for Williamson county be 42 
 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I move to. amend 
 by striking out 42 cents and making 
 45 cents. (Seconded.) 
 
 (Tihe operators voted No, Vtm mdnjers 
 voited Aye, and the amendment was 
 lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voited Ayie, the miners voted No, and 
 it was losit.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I move that the price 
 for cross-roads and headings in the 
 third-vein associated mines, Wilming- 
 ton and associated mines, Pontiac, Car- 
 diff, long-wall, including Streator and 
 Bloooming'ton thin veins, shall be 10.9 
 cents above the scale price per ton in 
 the places' named. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— With reference to 
 the lower bench shlipping mines in 
 Jackson county, in the Seiventh dis- 
 trict, it seelms to- m© as Line committees 
 cannot agree — tliere have been several 
 of them ouit— it is about time we were 
 asking tMs sub-committee to do some- 
 thing for that vein of coal. Liast y^ar, 
 as you all remember-, it was refero^d to 
 Meti^TS. Justl and President Rusjsell to 
 see if something could not be fixed up 
 so ihat Mr. Gartside could mine that 
 coal. One year almost has elapsed and 
 nothing has been done. He has not beien 
 permitted to raise one ton of coal in all 
 that time. Several meetings were held 
 during the year, but nothing come of 
 them. We came into this convention 
 and another committee has been ap- 
 pointed composed of two' good mjn out- 
 side of the district. ' Our representa- 
 tive on that committee has' made Ms 
 statement, and I think the gentleman 
 representing the miners has answered 
 thiat he could not make any argument. 
 They reported to you 'this morning that 
 they could not agree. It is true that 
 they were continued, but it does not 
 look as thougih. they could reach any 
 agreement. Mr. Gartside has a large 
 field of coal and should be permitted to 
 work it. We should not ask him to 
 remain Idle another year. If for any 
 reason these committees have a deli- 
 cacy about doing their duty on either 
 side, I think it is high time for this 
 committee to take is up and decide it 
 for them; that is the situaJtion, gentle- 
 men, plajin and simple. I have been 
 told by two or three of them that 
 served therei that- they did not care to 
 incur the displeasure of one side or the 
 other in making a decision. We have 
 offered what we think is a very fair 
 rate. I find that it is higher than It 
 should have been. That is where we 
 made our mistake. If we had started 
 In at about one-half the price we 
 niamed, I think we would have been 
 together long before this. Now, Mr. 
 Chairman, I move you that the rate 
 for the lower bench shipping mllnies of 
 Jackson mines be made 53 cents, 
 standing by our first offer. (Seconded.) 
 MR. HUGGINS:— I will agree, with 
 
 Mr. Garrison that this question oug 
 
 to be settled. I will also agree th 
 
 it ought to have been settled a ye 
 
 ago, but so far we have failed 
 
 adjust it, prior to the organization 
 
 1897, and after we had organized, the 
 
 was a scale fixed for that lower ben 
 
 and it was worked a wihtle at 57 cer 
 
 before we got the last 9-oent advam 
 
 or 50-oent machine rate. The conte 
 
 tion by the company Was that th 
 
 could not afford to pay the price. La 
 
 year the scale committee or joint co 
 
 vention failed to fix a price and it w; 
 
 referred back to our state preside- 
 
 and the operators' commissioner for a 
 
 justment. They failed to adjust it. "W 
 
 came here trying to fix a rate agai 
 
 The operators decided on their sea 
 
 that it should be 53 cents. We pr 
 
 sented a scale of 60 cents, and our me 
 
 do. the brushing. We failed to agree c 
 
 that proposition, and on motion of M 
 
 Garrison It was dtecided to refer it i 
 
 two parties outside of the district thlnl 
 
 ing that certainly after hearing the a: 
 
 guments from both sides thalt the 
 
 could get together. They have mi 
 
 more than once. They have heard tt 
 
 argument from both sides twice: lui 
 
 derstand that the person selected froi 
 
 the miners made a proposition to ti 
 
 party selected by thie operators to me* 
 
 them half way. I want to be absolutel 
 
 fair in this proposition, while I neve 
 
 intend to work that vein of coal eve 
 
 if we gelt our price for it. But thei 
 
 are men in that locality who wouJ 
 
 work providing we could agree on 
 
 scale that was just and fair and it doe 
 
 seem to me, as Mr. Garrison has sale 
 
 that that committee ought to have de 
 
 cided on the price. Mr. Garrison make 
 
 the statement, I believe, if I understan 
 
 it correctly, that our side did not tr 
 
 to produce any argument. Was that i( 
 
 Mr. Garrison? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— ThaJt was th 
 statement made to me, ye®, sir. 
 
 MR. HUGGINS:— Our arbitrator, o 
 person selecte-d, tells us thajt he mad- 
 a proposition to meet them half wa 
 and I feel to be fair to boith sides o 
 this question that if he made that prop 
 osition, I feel like the operator on th 
 other hand or the person representini 
 the operators ought to have been will 
 ing to have met him' half way. Th 
 men in that district are working a 
 that place; I was aJt home yesterday 
 I don't know whether it would be prop 
 er to inject that in here or not, but thei 
 we want to be frank with one another 
 we want to understand one another 
 they told me not to recede one cen 
 from the original projyositlon. I said 
 "Gentlemen, we have submitted it t( 
 a fair and impartial board and what 
 ever they decldfe ui>on, I want to as 
 sure you we will stand by." They hav< 
 failed to report to this sub-committee 
 I am sorry they have failed to read 
 an agrreement for the operators b»v( 
 their money Invested in that locality 
 they want to work that coal. Thej 
 have got many miners therte "Who ■wll 
 
Evening Session, March 10. 
 
 305 
 
 robably work if a satJlsfactory agree - 
 lent can be reached. The thick coal 
 ein in a few more years will have been 
 ■orked but and the business interest .of 
 [urphysboro demand that it be ad- 
 isted, but I want to say, they having 
 illed to agree to the operaJtors unless 
 ley meet us half way, I want to in- 
 >rm this subcommittee that there can 
 e no settlement. If we cannot , get 
 Jigether after we vote on this proposi- 
 on I will make a motion. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 link Mr. Huggins has tried to work 
 'ith us In getting something fair down 
 lere. I want to answer thait B7-oent 
 reposition; when the rate was 38 cents 
 1 thaJt district Mr. Cartside took a 
 ontract with the Mobile & Ohio rail- 
 >ad, and it became necessary for Mm 
 > take out some ot this coal be bad 
 unning there, and 'he tried to work on 
 tils lower vein as we term it. I think 
 16 mine worked alofig for a short time. 
 'resident Hunter appeared on the 
 round and told thS men that the rate 
 liould be 21 cents above the estab- 
 shed raJtfe in that district. Mir. Cart- 
 ide had an iron-clad contraot with the 
 [obile & Ohio railroad and they held 
 im to it. He tried to gelt relief by gOr' 
 ig to the railroad, but they said, "No, 
 'e expect you to fill that contract." It 
 ad about, I think, ninety days to 
 an; I may be wrong a few days, but 
 bout ninety days. Mr. Cartsidei is a 
 lan who fills his contracts, so hie paid 
 lese men 21 cents for he couldn't do 
 nj^hing else, and just as soon as that 
 Mitradt was filled, he quit paying them 
 . cents. He hasn't paiid it from that 
 ay to this, and through all of last 
 ear, through all the year which ter- 
 linates now on the Isit of Aipril, he 
 Eisn't raised one pound of coaJ. Now, 
 
 is true that the miners came in here 
 ith a scale of 60 cents, which includes 
 lurteen inches of brushing. I don't 
 now much about brusMng. There are 
 lenty of gentlemen here that dOL I 
 aderstand that Mr. Oartslde proposes 
 >ing- his own brushing. He has done 
 
 in the past when they were working 
 lere in a small way. One of the mem- 
 51^ of the committee of miners, when 
 e insisted on continuing to do the 
 rushing, said, very well, we will throw 
 if 3 cents and call our proipoeition 57 
 ints. I don't believe there are any 
 ; you hei'e that believe that fourfteen 
 iches of brushing can be done for 3 
 ints. We took that i>osition and in 
 Jking with them we talked 55 cents 
 • that 5 cents wouJd come nearer reip^ 
 senlting what the brushing would cost, 
 ur proposition there was 53 cents. We 
 aim that that proposition, if madiein 
 )od faith and if they meant business, 
 lould have been 55 cents instead of/ 57 
 ?nts. 'I don't think they will differ 
 oni me very much on that, if they 
 ere honest In intending to do. fourteen 
 ches of brushing. Mr. Huggins has 
 id very properly that he believed 
 ere w^ere men there who were will* 
 g to work. We know there are men 
 
 there who want that work; I am not 
 going toi call their names, but I could 
 call them. They came to Mr. Cartside 
 and siaid they would be very glad to 
 come in thePe and work. There were 
 two good machine men who said they 
 could make good wages in that lowtir 
 vein. If they are talking about com- 
 proimises and meeiting us half way, I 
 am wtlUing' to meelt them, half way, but 
 half way between 53 cents and 5S cents. 
 I don't want to. take up your time mak- 
 ing this statement. We agree to meet 
 them in a 54-oent rate. I don't say 
 that with the idea that they are going 
 to work us up to 55 cents: It is done 
 in a spj/rit of eompromlse and to l^y 
 to gelt together. The men are in this 
 position, if they don't want to work 
 they can stop. It has been ijroposed on 
 the port of the miners, when they 
 heard what my proposition was, that 
 they could quit whenever they saw fit, 
 Mr. Gartside being so satisfied that 
 they will work and would work at 53 
 cents when the rate was made, that he 
 is entSl-ely willing, if they find they 
 cannot make fair wages ih that vein, 
 to quit, and he will quit. If the men 
 don't warut toi work thtey can go else- 
 where and work, but he cannot pay 
 any more, gentlemen. ' You all know 
 what the additional cost is going to be 
 for him in producing "that coal. I 
 know a good deal about the coal in that 
 district and have handled some of Mr. 
 Gartsade's coal, as far as that is con- 
 cerned — the other coal he mines there, 
 and I know he is making you a great 
 big offer when he offers you what I 
 name here, and I think y^u ought to 
 meet him in as liberal a spirit. I hoipe 
 you will see your w^ay clear to accept 
 the offer of 54 cents, 
 
 MR. MORRIS:— On this offer of 54 
 cents, do the company agree tO' do the 
 brushing? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Tes, sir; the com- 
 pany will do the brushing. 
 
 MR. P. H. STRAWHM: While I am 
 not from that section of the county, I 
 know something aboult the lower bench 
 in Jackson county, and I would like 
 to say a few words in regard to ii. 
 The operators come here this time of- 
 fering us a 53-cent ralte. I see Mr. 
 Garrison has opened up his heart and 
 said 54 cents, but we had a 57-oent rate 
 down there when we had a 36-oenit rate. 
 Now, they claim the reason why they 
 stopped was. that they had a contraot 
 with the Mobile & Ohio Railroad com- 
 pany. Probably they did, but they had 
 plenty of high coal. Tou muisit remem- 
 ber that we mine both high and low 
 coal in the same mine in that country, 
 and when they moved over into the 
 other side and opened up the high cool, 
 we went to work. We are not asking 
 that rate. If we did, we would want 
 66 cents now. We are noit asking but 
 57 cents, and I think it is a fair propo- 
 sition. I don't see how Mr. Garrison or 
 Mr. Gartsiide could ask us to goi below- 
 the 55 cents which we agreed to com- 
 promise on, and there is no' use of his 
 
306 
 
 Evening Session, March, 10. 
 
 arguing' this question at all, because 
 the miners can't make a living at 53 
 cents. They have donfe that In order to 
 g'lve Mr. Garrison a good thing down 
 there. In order to operate that bench. 
 They can sell the coal and we believe 
 they can niake money on that. We 
 don't know that; we are not transact- 
 ing the busiiness. But the miners of 
 that town can't afford to mine that 
 coal for less than 55 cents and can't 
 do that and make anything coinpare'd 
 with the high coal. Now, in order for 
 this committee to know what kind of 
 a vein of coal thalt is, I would like to 
 tell them. It is a three-foot ten-inch 
 Veiin of coal, with a very bad roof, and 
 taking about fourteen inches of brush- 
 ing; It will take fourteen inches of 
 brushing In order to let a man get in. 
 When the mining machine cuts in the 
 clay it doesn't take as much brus'hlng 
 pf course, on top. The miners down 
 ther^ believe that the operators can 
 pay it and we can't do it below, and 
 I don't believe that you will be able 
 to get mliners to mine that coal at that 
 rate. , We don't believe we can geit 
 them tO' mine coal at a 55 cents rate; 
 Hhat would be 48 cents by machine. 
 That Is the way they work it, by ma- 
 chine. When they paid 50 cents, when 
 we was only getting a 36-cent rate, the 
 miners didn't like to work in it. The 
 coal is tooi low for machine men to 
 work. Tou have got a double amount 
 of cutting, you have got to cut double 
 the ajnount to get the same amount of 
 coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I haVe heard 
 something about this case and I would 
 like tO' know what you know about 
 the percentage of screenings down 
 there, what will it run in the lower 
 bench? 
 
 MR. STRAWN : — In the Car'tside 
 mine in the lower bench, where they 
 operate in this low coal, they throw 
 the cuttings back. Mr. Garrison don't 
 do it in his mine — and by throwing the 
 cuttings back we believe that about 
 25 per cent would be about the amount 
 of slack, that is, we would have 75 per 
 cent of lump coal if they would con- 
 tinue throwing back the cuttings, re- 
 member, the machine cuttings. Tou 
 understand what 'that is. They throw 
 that back. Now in Mr. Garrison's 
 mines in the same place they don't 
 never throw anything back, but in 
 Mr. Gartslde's mine they throw it back. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I think I made It 
 very clear how Mr. Gartside came to 
 pay 57 cents. I don't think you gentle- 
 men will lose by understanding that 
 proposition. The Mobile & Ohio road 
 had the money in its possession for the 
 coal furnished the previous month — 
 but I won't bother you with that. This 
 is more in the nature of an experiment. 
 The miners don't know — they admit 
 they don't know — what the result will 
 be. We want to find out. We can then 
 better determine what we can afford 
 to pay. If only 25 per cent of the screen- 
 ings can be demonstrated as coming 
 
 out of that coal, I want to say to yot 
 that the 55 cents asked by the miners 
 will be paid in a hurry, but we want e 
 sufficient length of time and. we wani 
 to ascertain the fact in pur own waj 
 and in our own time. We don't wani 
 any demonstration through a fe^ 
 weeks or anything like that. Mr. Gart- 
 side is not here and I may be going toe 
 far for him but I am willing to be re- 
 sponsible for that position. I think 11 
 will produce a great deal more tihaii 
 25 per cent of screenings. However, 
 you know a great deal more about if 
 than I do, and I hope that It Is true. 
 His coal win run over three feet ten. 
 We differ on that but we claim It is 
 higher coal than that, and you have 
 Said three feet eight repeatedly, but for 
 a sake of a ruling on this we will call 
 it three feet ten. It does seem to me 
 that we should be'given time sufflcient- 
 Iv long, and I think with the termina- 
 tion of another scale year, If we reach 
 one, that we could be able to come In 
 and say to you just what we have done 
 and are willing to do, but we can't In 
 any short time. The summer is ahead 
 of Mr. Gartside, the trade is very low 
 and slow, and the boys In our district 
 will find when they get home there will 
 only be part time noTV. We are out of 
 business. He has got uphill work, gen- 
 tlemen, getting that coal. I don't see 
 how he can afford to pay this difter- 
 ence, but he Is willing to try It. And 
 answering Mr. Strahwm that the min- 
 ers can't make a living we don't be- 
 lieve It. We have figures that we sub- 
 mitted last year from Mr. Gartside, 
 that contradict that statement oom- 
 pleiely, and if they can't work they 
 can quit. Now, that is all there is to 
 it and there will be no feeling on our 
 pait. 
 
 I will enter into any little written 
 agreement that is asked If certain re- 
 sults can be had. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 understand that 
 thf committee was to meet at 7:30 to- 
 night. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I tried to get 
 themi to meet and they said it was no 
 u^:e. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I understood they 
 were to meet up here at 7:30. I think 
 we had better defer this case till the 
 morning, and see what that committee 
 Is going to do with it. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I was talking to Mr. 
 Zellers just before supper this evening, 
 and Infer that this committee would 
 meet but he w^anted to confer with 
 Secretary Strawhm and Delegate Hlg- 
 gins, and some of the other delegates 
 from that field, so I think It Is the in- 
 tention of the committee to meet again. 
 So I move that the matter be deferred 
 until the committee bring in a final re- 
 port, with the understanding they 
 bring It In tomorrow morning as early 
 as possible. (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 (Adjourned until 9 o'clock the next 
 morning). 
 
MoKNiNG Session, March 11. 
 
 307 
 
 SUB-SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 11, 1902. 
 
 The committee was called to order 
 at 9 a. m., by Chairman Ryan. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I want to call 
 your attention to a little matter we have 
 overlooked in Jackson county, that is, 
 "Coal flv* feet and under Is tO' be five 
 cents more than the fixed rate." thftt 
 the rate on coal five feet and under in 
 Jackson county be five cents more than 
 •the fixed mining rate. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— I would call your 
 attention to the fact that you agreed 
 on the wording of the clause but did 
 not agree on the clause itself. (Read- 
 ing clause). 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— That was the un- 
 derstanding. That is correct. 
 
 MR. F. J. MORRIS:— I would like 
 to know what is the difference between 
 paying five cents a ton extra for coal 
 at five feet and under in that county 
 and any other county in this state. If 
 it is justifiable in Jackson county it is 
 Justifiable in every other county of 
 the state. 
 
 (The motion was voted on and car- 
 ried). 
 
 MR. HEFTI: — I move the adoption of 
 the first resolution of the miners pro- 
 posed scale, which reads as follows: 
 "The above rate shall include the lay? 
 ing and maintenance of all tracks in 
 all working places up to the face, by 
 the operator, and all mine cars shall 
 Tiave closed ends." (Seconded). 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— I don't think we ought 
 to take up much time discussing these 
 matters. I believe we all understand 
 that this demand was made a year 
 ago, that is, the laying of the track 
 was denied us. The miners said they 
 would come, again and ask for it, and 
 we are here asking for it now, be- 
 lieving that we are entitled to it, and 
 believing the operators should grant 
 us this clause from the fact that but 
 a few of the operators are not laying 
 the track at the present time, while the 
 majority have been laying it for a long 
 time^ As regards the matter of closed 
 ends, I don't know that that should 
 take any of our time. It has been 
 practically settled in many of the dis- 
 tricts. There Is only one district Where 
 they have a dispute as to closed ends, 
 an-l it seems to me the matter can on- 
 ly be settled if the resolution Is agreed 
 to here. 
 
 MR. NBWSAM: — I know that matter 
 was threshed over here very hard, and 
 T know it is not practical to do it with- 
 out making a great expense, in this 
 district especially where coal is shpt 
 of!" the solid. 
 
 I know it would cause a great deal 
 of trouble here, we would haye our 
 mines lying idle half the time on that 
 point. 
 
 rThe operators voted No, the mmers 
 voted Aye, and the motion was lost). 
 
 MR BENT:- Mr. Murray is not here, 
 he is sick, and we are not sure wheth- 
 
 er he would prefer to, have the con- 
 tract silent as to Gallatin county or, 
 whether he would prefer to have the 
 matter referred to the committee that 
 it wasi referred to. Has Mr. Jeremiah 
 heard from him? ' 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I haven't heard 
 from him since last Saturday. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Do you know whether 
 Mr. Murray would prefer to have It 
 referred to two parties In the way we 
 did under the resolution last year or 
 leave the contriact silent? Which way 
 would he prefer now? 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I think he would 
 rather have it referred to a commit- 
 tee. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move that the com- 
 mittee appointed in regard to Gallatin 
 ccimty, be made a standing committee, 
 with power to fix a rate in that county. 
 (.Seconded). 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I would like to 
 have someone else represent the op- 
 erators on that. What Is the matter 
 with Mr. Justl godng down there? 
 
 MR. RYAN:- 1 believe It would be 
 better, if we are going to refer it to 
 the committee, to have It referred to 
 some other operator than the one who 
 operates the mine, Mr. Justi, or some 
 other operator in that field. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We will substitute Mr. 
 Justi for Mr. Murray. 
 
 (The motion was voted on and car- 
 ried). 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— We have been recip- 
 ients of courtesies from the Elks, and 
 it seems to me it would be appropriate 
 for us tO' give expression to our sense 
 oi' gratitude for the favors received at 
 the hands of Mr. Sampson and the lo- 
 . cal lodge of Elks. I therefore move 
 that a committee composed of the 
 president of the United Mine Workers 
 of America and the president of the 
 Illinois Coal operators' association, be 
 requested to express in person to Mr. 
 Sampson, our high sense of apprecia- 
 tion. (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 MR. BENT:— Yesterday, when a sub- 
 stitute for the present 16th clause was 
 presehted by the special committee and 
 discussed the report relating to the 
 rules In the long wall mines, especially 
 ks applying to a question in control 
 versy in the Wilmington field, was the 
 cause of action on the clause being' de- 
 ferred. At that time there was but one 
 operator , from the Wilmington field 
 available in the committee. Now we 
 have Col. Sweet with us, the veteran 
 operator of that field, who has known 
 the conditions through all these years, 
 and who Is a heavy operator there at 
 present, and we are prepared to dis- 
 cuss that clause again. 
 
 I move the adoption of the commit- 
 tee's substitute for the 16th clause of 
 the present agreement. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — I move to strike 
 out the words, "and care," in the fifth 
 line of paragraph "A" of the 16th 
 . clause in the present agreement; that 
 is also part of the committee's report. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Perry.) 
 
308 
 
 Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. ■ Chairman, the 
 amendment proposed by Mr. Mitchell 
 attacks the two things that the oper- 
 ators have stood for most explicitly 
 and firmly throughout this convent'ion. 
 One is, that the existing rules in the 
 long wall mines should continue as 
 they are. The other is that the cost 
 of coal should not be increased In any 
 district in this state. We liave not 
 modified our position in regard to eith- 
 er of these questions. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I am very sorry that 
 / this question has come up at this time 
 or rather could not have been settled 
 while Mr. Taylor was here. It, is a 
 matter that interests Mr. Taylor as 
 much or possibly more than any other 
 operator in the Wilmington field. How- 
 ever, ii? all of my conversations with 
 Mr. Taylor, lie absolutely stated and 
 declared that he would not waver one 
 iota from the position which we have 
 held there for 25 or 30 years. This is 
 a rule that has always existed. The 
 miner has always taken care of his 
 place, and why should you now select 
 the Braidwood field, among all the min- 
 ing districts of the state, and say that 
 a miner shall not take care of his 
 place, while in all the other fields In 
 this state the miner is expected to take 
 care of his place, no matter what hap- 
 pens to it. Of course, If there is any- 
 thing that happens to it that is beyond 
 his control, that is a question that Is 
 to be discussed. But in the Braid- 
 wood field there has never been any 
 question in all my experience of 32 
 years but what the miner should take 
 care of his road 100 yards back. It 
 used to be longer than that, but in late 
 years we have been endeavoring to re- 
 lieve the miner from as much, of that 
 work as possible. Mr. Ryan under- 
 stands that. We have cut the length 
 of the roads down something short of 
 the 100 yards, but the miner has always 
 taken care of the road back a hundred 
 yards. I understand that there have 
 been some statements here that some 
 are not taking care of the roadways 
 short of that. That may be so In the 
 case of Braceville, but the Braidwood 
 rules have always been and our con- 
 tracts have always stated that the 
 miner should take care of his road 
 back 100 yards. It used to be to the 
 line. That has been chaneed to 100 
 yards, and that has been enforced for 
 many years, since 1897. . I don't think 
 Mr. Ta.ylor for one minute would con- 
 sider the question of striking out this, 
 "and care of the room." 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If what Col. 
 Sweet says is correct, if his understand- 
 ing of the situation is correct, we will 
 agree with him. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— How is that? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Tou ask why we 
 come in here and attack the single 
 field and ask to change a condition that 
 we are not asking elsewhere. Col. 
 Sweet you know that the Wilmington 
 field is the only field in the state of Ill- 
 
 inois that requires the miners to ke i 
 their roadways. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I don't so und:r- 
 stand it. 
 
 PRESIDENT MITCHELL:— Well i1 
 is. 
 MR. RYAN:- That is correct. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It is the only 
 single field in the state of Illinois that 
 requires it. Now, we are not seeking 
 by our amendment or by any modlflca- 
 tion of the 16th clause to escape re- 
 sponsibility for caring for our working 
 places, for brushing our roadways, for 
 keeping them the proper heighth, as 
 required by the well established rules 
 of the Wilmington field, but it is those 
 very circumstances you refer to — ques- 
 tions over which we have no control — 
 that we ask relief from respofaslbility 
 for. Where a fall comes on a roadway 
 after it has been kept four feet high, 
 we ask that the rules be interpreted to 
 mean that we are not responsible for 
 it, and shall not be punished by having 
 to clean it. There is nothing in the 
 Braidwood rules except an interpreta- 
 tion placed by the companies upon 
 them that requires the miner to clean 
 falls that have come from a place in 
 the roadway that was more than four 
 feet high when the fall took place. 
 That is what we object to. It is not to 
 keeping the roadway four feet high, 
 taking care of our working places, but 
 when a fall comes after we have done 
 all this, after we have complied with 
 all the provisions of the contract, we 
 ask that we be not obliged to go back 
 and clean those falls at our expense. 
 There isn't a single field In the state of 
 Illinois, even under the most narrow 
 or the broadest Interpretation of the 
 16th clause that would require a man 
 to work two or three days for nothlng^ 
 cleaning roadways, and that is done in 
 the Braidwood field unless an operator 
 is disposed to help the miner out, which 
 often they do, but it is simply a quas- 
 tion of generosity with them. They" 
 don't have to do it unless they want to-.- 
 COL. SWEET:— Mr. Mitchell, all we 
 want is the same rules and regulations 
 and conditions that we have had in 
 years past. I do not understand why 
 this question should pome up at this; 
 time. It has been the established rule 
 there for years, that the miners there 
 should take care of their roadways. Tou. 
 all knoiw very well that a miner can 
 take care of his road and manage to- 
 keep' it brushed just about high enough 
 to- let coal oars get under it, and neg'lect- 
 the brushing of his roads and the first 
 thing you know you have got a tig 
 fall there, and If this care of the roads"- 
 is taJcen from' him it will cost us more 
 to take care of those roads than al- 
 most anything else that we have in 
 the mines. I for one, will not consont 
 to It because I know that Harry Taylor- 
 has been very strenuous on that point. 
 We talked that over before we came to- 
 this convention, and he has talked it- 
 over some since he came here and ha'i 
 stated that under no circumstances: 
 
Morning Sbssion, March 11. 
 
 309 
 
 ■«-oul3 he allow anything to go Into this 
 contract that would Increase the cost 
 of mining our coal one cent, and this I 
 know will Increase It very materlallj-, 
 possibly five or eight cents a ton. We 
 cannot estimate it because With care- 
 less miners, and Indifferent men, they 
 -will let ithe thing fall In and say, oh. 
 the company is going to take care of 
 it. and they will take care of It, and 
 let It go. We have in. many Instances 
 very often helped a man to take care 
 of a fall like is descr'ibed here, and we 
 «xpect to do it In the future as we 
 have in the past; but we do not want 
 the thing left open here soi broad and 
 so manifestly in favor of the miner 
 -doing just about as he has a mind to 
 "With his roads. We must have same 
 protection to compel a miner to take 
 •care of his road properly. 
 
 MR. MITCHBLiL:— I certainly do not 
 agree that your conclusions are right 
 ■^in this case. The miner could not 
 make these falls if he wanted to; he 
 could not prevent them if he wanted 
 -to. If the agreement passes without the 
 words, "care of the roadways" In it, 
 it still requires him to brush his road 
 and keep It four feet high. That 
 means he must do as ihuch brushing 
 at thei face as he does now to put in 
 Tiis buildings, otherwise the agreement 
 will require him to go back and brush 
 it again as soon as they get less than 
 four feet high. Now, we don't ask to 
 be relieved of that resiJonsibllity but 
 the question of a fall coining on a road; 
 now a miner in the Wilmington field 
 <:annot by any carelessness make a fall 
 in his own roadway. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— But he can do this: 
 He is passing back over his road more 
 than anyone else' in the mine and has a 
 better opportunity of knowing when 
 there is any danger of a fall in his road 
 than anyone else, and if he sees that 
 the roof is going to break, if he has The 
 care of the road he will take care of it 
 and see that it is not a bad fall, but 
 if the company has got to do it he will 
 go under it as long as he dares to go 
 and let her come. That Is where the 
 troilble comes in. We want hlmi to feel 
 some responsibility of taking care of 
 that road so that there will not be a 
 lEall that will cover up the whole road 
 and block the coal company out. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— Well, I can't un- 
 ■derstand why the men in the Wilming- 
 ton field are the only miners in the 
 state of Illinois that are required to as- 
 sume that responsibility for oaring for 
 a thing that they have absolutely no 
 control over. The most skilled miner 
 in the State of Illinois, the most careful 
 miner in the state, is as liable to have 
 U as the most reckless and careless 
 one. It would absiolutely be beyond 
 his control. He has taken all the care 
 that is possible for a man to take in 
 making his roadway and still a fall 
 comes on and the miner is required to 
 clean that fall regardless of hoTV 'ong 
 it takes him to do it. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I can tell you Why 
 
 we require that to be done. Because 
 oui' mining prices and 'Our dead work 
 conditions are such as to practically 
 bar us out of the market. There has 
 never been any time since I have been. 
 ©Iterating In that field for thirty years 
 when there has been so close and severe 
 competition from other parts of th? 
 state as there Is at present. We are 
 absolutely selling our' coal at less than 
 it costs for railroad contracts, absolute- 
 ly, and if it were not for those railroad 
 contracts we could not ketep the mines 
 so that we dould work them in the 
 winter time. We could not get work 
 in the summer time enough to keep the 
 mines in order. You know that; yoii 
 have wO'i^ked there; you understand 
 how it is there, and the railroad busi- 
 ness this year has been taken at less 
 than It absolutely costs us. Our dead 
 work expenses, as you all know, are 
 rather above any other mining district 
 in the state of Illinois, and now to pile 
 upon us another expense here — why you 
 might just as well close the mines. Jt 
 is not at all ceiPtain that thely won't 
 have to close after all. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — It would be a good 
 thing. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— You will lose your 
 job if they do. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I dom't care if I do. 
 I would like to say, Mr. Sweet, that I 
 would rather lose my joto than to see 
 such conditions exist. It would be Just 
 as reasonable for these operators to 
 come here from your distrlcst and say, 
 "Why, weJ are going to have a mining 
 price established that will carry along 
 the care of the roadway in our fields" — 
 
 COL. SWEET:— We simply ask you 
 for a price that has been established for 
 25 or 30 years. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Sweet, they had 
 slavery established In this country for 
 25 or 30 years and then sitopped It. It is 
 no sign It was right. I don't see why 
 other operators do not come here and 
 demand that a mining price be made 
 covering the care' of roadways in ihelr 
 fields if it Is so essential. There is 
 no more reiason why tbelre should be a 
 mining price existing in that field com- 
 pelling the miner to bear the burden of 
 things that it is beyond his power to 
 prevent — there is no more reiason why 
 siich a state of affairs should exist 
 there than down in Danville, in the 
 third vein or any either part of this 
 stiate, and since you have ajU been very 
 emphatic in saying that you will not 
 change this under any consideration, 
 1 only wish, that being the case, *.hat ' 
 you did close your mines down. Yoii 
 cruld not confer a greater favor on the 
 mineirs in that field than to close those 
 mines down and never open themi again. 
 It would have been a blessing, to the 
 miners in this country if they had 
 never been opened up along with the 
 third vein today. I, for my part, will 
 ntver vote for any agreement here that 
 is going to impose conditions upon o 
 miner that it is not within his power 
 to prevent, asking him to be responsible 
 
310 
 
 Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 for something that God Almigihty Him- 
 self does. It Is preposterous and out- 
 rageous, and I for one 'WIU never agree 
 to It. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I do not believe these 
 complaiints come from the m.lners. They 
 are perfectly contented. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL;— I don't know 
 what Mr. Taylor's attitude on this ques- 
 tion would be if he we're here, and I 
 do not want to express my opinion of 
 what it would be in his absence, but 
 I do want to state one instance that 
 arose under a complaint of this kind. 
 A fall came on a roadway in Mr. Tay- 
 lor's mine and the tniners contended 
 that the company shooild clean it up 
 at their expense. The case was car- 
 ried through the reigular channels iin- 
 t'l it finally reached Mr. Taylor and 
 the state executive board. I was in 
 Chicago the day the case was taken 
 up and took part in the meeting and 
 an allowance was made for cleanmg 
 the fall. Mr. Taylor, however, said it 
 was not to be regarded as establishing 
 any precedent. He said he simply 
 would pay the man for the work he 
 performeid in cleaning that fall. Now, 
 I feel that Mr. Taylor, In doing that, 
 at least recognized the injustice of re- 
 quiring a man to clean a fall that 
 came in a place in his roadway over 
 which he had no control and I feel 
 that if Mr. Taylor were here that he 
 now would recognize the same element 
 of justice and right in considering thi» 
 case that he did in paying for that or« 
 fail. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— He did this under 
 this last year's contract? 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes, sir. 
 COL. SWEET:— Well, you can trust 
 him to do it again. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I wouldn't trust 
 him any more than I would you or 
 any other operator, Colonel, friendly 
 as he and I are, but we don't want it 
 that way. We don't want it as a mat- 
 ter of generosity from Mr. , Taylor or 
 any other operator in the Wilmington 
 field; we want It as a matter of righi. 
 MR. PERRY;- 1 want to say that all 
 people are not Harry Taylor either. 
 An instance occurred there in one mine 
 to show toi what extrenie they carry 
 this thing. A man had his roadway 
 full fooir feet high and the entry 
 needed grading. They sent their com- 
 pany men in along the entry, and 
 graded the road some two feet, laid 
 the roadway, and left the batch ol 
 bottom at the mouth of the miner's 
 room. The miner had to eo back to 
 connect his track and grade that road 
 for two or three pair of rails, take rock 
 out of the bottom so that the road 
 would connect. Had to take care of his 
 working place. Something that was 
 not his fault, somcething that he had 
 nothing to do with, when he already 
 had his road four feet high. Now, Mr. 
 Taylor said he did not consider that 
 was using the man right, but the other 
 fellow that made him do it considered 
 
 it was, so they are not all Harry TTay- 
 lors up there. 
 
 MR RYAN:— Mr. Sweet, why do you 
 require the miners In the Wilmington 
 field toi perform more labor for the pro- 
 duction of a ton of coal than you re- 
 quire your miners in the third ve\u 
 
 field. ^ ^ ■ t^ 
 
 COL SWEET:— When I went into 
 the third vein field the rules were es- 
 tablished there and I simply have been 
 working under those rules. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you require a miner 
 in the third vein field to' clean a fall 
 that comes on his road after he has 
 dene everything he is paid toi do for 
 76 cents per ton? 
 
 COL. SWEET:— We do whatever it 
 la customary for the past 25 years. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I am asking a question. 
 I would like to havei it answered, yes 
 
 or no. 
 
 COL. SWEET: — I don't know. I am 
 not familiar with it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Don't you know, Mr. 
 Sweet, that the company takes care of 
 the road after the miner has brushed 
 24 inches? 
 
 COL. SWEET: — I presume they do. 
 It is the contract. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Then why should Iho 
 miners in the Wilmington field do any 
 further work on their road after they 
 have complied with all the provisions of 
 their contract for which you pay them 
 81 cents per ton? 
 
 COL. SW^EET:— Simply because It has 
 bt-en the custom for 25 years. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We admit that, Mr. 
 Sweet, under protest year after year 
 from the miners. The miners have not 
 only offered you five cents a ton over 
 and above the third vein price, but they 
 have offered you the entire 15 cents, 
 and you do all the brushing and build- 
 ing. It has been a continual protest 
 as long as I remember anything about 
 it in the field and that has been a good 
 many years, and as I stated here yes- 
 terday in your absence here, whether 
 it is agreed to here or not, the miners 
 are going to contest that proposition 
 until they get rid of it. I contend tljat 
 when we are doing everything we are 
 required toi do for the 81 cents, that 
 is to brush the road and keep it four 
 feet high and properly build the walls 
 and mine the coal, we are not respon- 
 sible for anything else. I take the 
 same position that President Mitciiell 
 and Mr. Perry and others took on that 
 question^ 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— May 1 ask a 
 question or two? You are talking aboui 
 the third vein field. Isn't it a fact 
 that they never pay anything for cross 
 heads on the ton? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— That is another prop- 
 osition. We are contending that Is jusi 
 as unusual in the Wilmington field. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Don't they A' 
 that in the Wilmington field? 
 MR. RYAN:— Yes, they do. 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Why should thr: 
 do that there when they don't in tlT 
 third vein field? 
 
Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 311 
 
 MR. RYAN:— It is up to you on botJi 
 propositions. 
 
 MR^BUCHANAN:— Would you con- 
 sider it is fair for us to ask the miners 
 to do something in ithe Wilmington 
 field that they have done In the third 
 vein field? Why is it that you ask a 
 seven-cent machine differential all over 
 the state of Illinois where they use ma- 
 chines and give a ten-cent difflerentlal 
 at Danville? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Because we know It is 
 fair. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN: —Because you 
 know you can force it and for no other 
 reason. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We do it because 
 the operators themselves agreed to it 
 specifically. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Under protest, 
 Mr. Mitchell. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't know that the 
 question has anything to do with the 
 case at the present time, Mr. Buchan- 
 an. W^e are not dodging the issue at 
 all. 
 
 MR. • BUCHANAN:— It has as much 
 bearing on the question as the reason 
 you gave Mr. Sweet, every bit. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Not by any means. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— It is a difCerenc* 
 of opinion, Mr. Ryan. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — The operators have 
 conceded and acknowledged that the 
 seven-cent differential ia fair and they 
 are making money on that proposition. 
 We contend our miners are not. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Mr. Ryan, if you 
 come down to that question of eamlimg 
 capp-city I will say there are men work- 
 ing for me toiday that under the exist- 
 ing conditions can earn more money 
 than they are earning today, if thev 
 choose to work. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I want to say then, 
 Mr. Buchanan, that there is not a 
 better class of miners in the state than 
 yours, and they work just as hs^rd and 
 just as regularly. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I want to say 
 that we have men in northern Illinois 
 mines that five years ago we would 
 not have had around the place. If 
 they were all like the miners that were 
 In the field when you were there your 
 contention might be a good one, but 
 they are not. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — They are jusi as good; 
 I know theni now just as well as 1 
 knew them then. And another thing I 
 want to call your attention to that 
 you admitted yesterday that there 
 was nothing of the kind in the rules. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I did nothing of 
 the kind, Mr. Ryan. You asked me if 
 the contract specifically^ stated, in so 
 many words, all the duties. It loes 
 not. We are not contending that 't 
 ever did. We are, contending that we 
 arc working under conditions that have 
 always existed. by your testimony here 
 btfore this committee yesterday as to 
 what you had to do when yiou were 
 working in the Wilmington field — what 
 Mr. Mitchell says he had to do in the 
 Wilmington field. I maintain they were 
 
 emergencies. However, your very tes- 
 timony, out of your own mouth, shows 
 that the condition did exist, and we are 
 not asking for anything that has not 
 always been the custom In the field; 
 nothing more, nothing less. ' 
 
 MR. RYAN: — We are simply con- 
 tending for our rights under the rules, 
 and the rules are bad enough, God 
 knows. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Mr. Ryan, why 
 do we pay five cents more in the Wil- 
 mington field than they do in the third 
 vein field? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— For the extra brushing 
 that the miner has to take in order 
 tc keep his roadway four feet high, and 
 that is all you pay It for. W^e will 
 give you the five cents and take the 
 whole business. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— We ^on't want 
 it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Certainly you don't. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— We would not 
 take the brushing at that price. We 
 could not do it. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:- 1 want to ask Mr. 
 Buchanan is It not a fact that if in the 
 third vein the miner is paid for ihe 
 opening of closed places where it is not 
 the fault of the miner? 
 
 MRr BUCHANAN:— They are in the 
 Wilmington field too. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— They are? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— la there any rule or 
 anything in the agreement that com- 
 pels the company to pay any miner? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— You havei there 
 the Wilmington coal agreement. You 
 can see everything that is dolwn in 
 there. i 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— There isn't a thing 
 in the Wilmington agreement that com- 
 pels the company to pay a miner for 
 opening a closed place. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Very well, there 
 was in previous years. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— There isn't any- 
 thing at present. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — There never was. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— And I want to say 
 I had a case up not very long ago 
 where the mine manager contended 
 with me that the miner must be re- 
 sponsible for what God Almightv sent 
 upon that place; that was his conten- 
 tion. I have but very little to say in 
 regard toi this matter. I regret to say 
 that ,th^' condition in the Wilmington 
 mines IS deplorable as compared with 
 any other field iii the state of Illinois, 
 I care not where you go or what field 
 It is. I want to say, as I have heard 
 operators say, that if an injustice has 
 been done these men and it has been 
 carried on from year to year, and it 
 has been forced upon them, that the 
 time will oome when that injustici* 
 must be remedied. So far as I am 
 concerned, individually, I believe that 
 the time has arrived now. iThere is 
 not, as President Mitchell has said, a 
 single field in the state of Illinois, 
 whe're the miners are compelled to d^ 
 the amount of dead work that they do 
 
312 
 
 Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 in the Wilmington field without com- 
 pensation, either in the room and pillar 
 work or in the third vein. There is an 
 agreeTneint in the third vein that if 
 a miner has mad© his roadway the re- 
 quired height, and a fall oomes upon 
 that road the company shall clean that 
 fall within 24 hours; if not the miner 
 is compensated for it. Tet you people 
 wl'th only an Imaginary line between 
 you contend that- the miner must do 
 aJl this work. I want to say, as Mr. 
 Perry has said, that it Is simply out- 
 rageous, it Is not fair, there is no jus- 
 tice in it, not a particle, and I think 
 that the time has come when It should 
 be remedied. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I believe Mr. 
 Perry — I think it was — a moment ago 
 cited a case when a roadway was 
 changed past a miner's place and that 
 man had to put in considerable extra 
 time in reconnecting his roE^dway with 
 the main roadway. May I ask Mr. 
 Perry where that occurred. In the third 
 vein or. the Wilmington field? 
 
 MR. PERRY: — In the Wilmington 
 field. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I will just call 
 ycur' attention to article 14, in the 
 Wilmington local agreement. "That 
 where the company raises a track and 
 switch past the miner's room the com- 
 pany ^hall coTinect the miner's roadway 
 and leave it in as god condition as 
 before." That is the rule, and It would 
 be the same If the track was lowered. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It didn't used to be 
 the rule. That happened something 
 like a year or possibly more agOL That 
 is- how the clause came to be put in 
 htre. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Of course, we 
 can only legislate for the matter and 
 we cannot hold down all of our opera- 
 tors any more than you can all thei 
 miners. There was no objectioln made 
 to putting that in there so I think it 
 is hardly fair to ge^ up here and hold 
 it up as being directly unfair in cases 
 of that kind. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You people have con- 
 tended that one reason why you don't 
 want to change is because St is an old 
 established custom up there: it was 
 the custom that a man should con- 
 nect his roadway up to until a year 
 ago, when this case I speak about came 
 up. Now you agree you have changed 
 it. Will you please tell why you chang- 
 ed that particular part of the custom 
 and the rest of it is not to be changed? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I beg to dlSer 
 with you. It has not been the cus- 
 tom. It has always been the custom 
 as far as I know, and I think Col. 
 Swe^t will say the same, that we do 
 I'joit compel a man, where the company 
 goes in and disconnects that road, to 
 put in a whole lot of time in cutting 
 down the road a foot or two to re- 
 connect it. The pit bosses are not in- 
 fallible, any more than your miners 
 are infallible. They may have been 
 overbearing in occasional cases but the 
 custom has not been that way. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: — Mr. Buchanan 
 said a few moments ago that the men 
 In the Wilming'ton field. If they would 
 work, could make more money. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— They can earn 
 more money. , . , ,, „ 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Now I think it Is 
 work that those fellows are huntmg 
 and not money, or they wouldn't stay 
 there. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— My answer to 
 that is thait I think a maji If he is 
 in a field where he canntft earn enougti 
 wages, and there are other fields in 
 the state where he can, is a fool to 
 stay there, and I don't think they 
 would stay there but for the reason 
 that they are earning good wages. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I wlU second' tihat mo- 
 tion. I would like toj ask Mr. Sweet 
 cr Mr. Buchanan what the miner Is ex- 
 pected to do for the five cents per ton 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— What has been 
 customary? 
 
 COL. SWEET:— Just what they al- 
 ways have done. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— Tell us what it 
 is. 
 
 COL. SWEET: — Take care of the 
 road, keep it brushed four feet high. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Any more than that? 
 
 COL. SWEET:— I don't know; it has 
 got to be kelpt open. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Now, Mr. Sweet, you 
 stated just a few moments ago that 
 the extra cost to you if you would 
 consent to this demand would be five 
 cents to eight cents per ton extra more 
 than your coal now costs you. Didn't 
 you makei that estimate? 
 
 COL. SWEET:— Yes. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— And then you expect 
 the miner to do for five cents what 
 you say will cost you from ten to thir- 
 teen cents per ton. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— No, the miner that 
 properly takes care of his road and 
 watches it Will save that amount, 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I believe you made 
 that statement, Mr. Sweet? 
 
 COL. SW^EET:— Yes, I did; but I ex- 
 plain it in this way: That the miner 
 going back and forth In Ms road everj 
 hour in the day, almost, will discovf:i 
 any Indicatioin of a break and take 
 care of it and it will practically cost 
 him nothing; while if it was left until 
 it fell, then the company has to go 
 tc work With three or four men, oi 
 half a dozen men, and clean it up. 
 There is where the expense comes 'n 
 but the man himself can take care ol 
 it at very little expense. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— He has nothing to d^. 
 but take care of the falls. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— The fall does noi 
 necessarily coime if he takes care ol 
 his room. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— He is something- lik< 
 the Irishman, I suppose, who wrot( 
 back to the old country and told hi: 
 friend that he should come over, as i 
 was so easy to make money here. Hi 
 was getting a dollar and a half a day 
 and all he had to do was to carry tin 
 
Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 313 
 
 brick and mortar up ten stories, and 
 the fellow on the top did all the work. 
 
 OOL. SWKE3T:— You remember when 
 you were working in the . shaft you 
 used to brush your road four fest high, 
 and when you went out at night it was 
 level and when you came in the morn- 
 ing you had to crawl in on your hands 
 and knees, but it was good work. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I will admit that I 
 worked in a good place there. I was 
 one that happened to ge.t a good place; 
 but. I want to say to you in that 5rao,d 
 place — and your i^it boss will endorse 
 "What I say — that we carried over eight 
 feet of brushing; not four feet, over 
 eight feet. 
 
 COL.. SWEET:— It may be. We 
 closed it because we did not want you 
 to do 'it. We did not expect you to do 
 it. We closed the mine because we 
 could not do it. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We didn't do it without 
 "kicking and are kicking yet. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— We were losdnR 
 TTion&y and had to close the mttne. 
 
 MR. , PERRY: — Mr. Taylor stated 
 here the other day that the five cents 
 above the 76 cents that they paid in 
 th^p W^ilmington, was big pay for the 
 i.iiners for the extra work that they 
 had to do more than the miner in the 
 third vein. He said men had got well 
 off at it by taking contracts at that 
 price. He stated that it was paying 
 them well for it. Now, that is a ma,t- 
 ter of record. I will leave it to the 
 operators right here on the flooT ther.i- 
 selves — you needn't to answer it for I 
 knov/ you won't, but can in your own 
 minds — if we are willing to give Mr. 
 Taylor and Mr. Sweet that five cents 
 which they themselves have stated has 
 a fortune in It. and let them take the 
 work with their company men, could 
 there be anything fairer in the worUl 
 than that? Could a man offer anv- 
 thing fairer than that? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I think 
 Mr. Perry mistakes that a little, un- 
 intentionally. My recollection is that 
 Mr. Taylor said that money had been 
 made by people contracting the entire 
 brushing and maintenance of the road 
 there at 15 cents, and not contracting 
 to do over 24 inches of brushing for 
 five cents. I may be mistaken but 
 that ife the way I understood it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to have 
 the records on that if they are here. I 
 know I am right because I spoke to 
 Mr. Taylor after about it and he reit- 
 terated what he said. I spoke to Mr. 
 Taylor afterward about it and we were 
 talking about it and he said five cents 
 per ton was big pay for keeping those 
 roads free. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I know he said that 
 about the 15 cents but I don't think he 
 said the other thing about the five 
 cents, that men had made big money 
 on contracts at five cents. He referred 
 to certain contracts of the whole thing 
 Cor 15 cents. Wasn't that it Mr. Ryan? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Well, what is the dif- 
 ference? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Well I will let that 
 part go, but he did say that the five 
 cents was big pay; that they were well 
 paid for it. Now, if we are Willing to 
 give them the five cents aren't they 
 willing to be fair by us and let us have 
 the same rules and customs that apply 
 on other places and -then take charge 
 of the roads? Now if anything can be 
 fairer I don't know what it is. 
 
 COL. SWEET:— Mr. Perry misunder- 
 stands Mr. Taylor in the remarks that 
 he made. , It was a, contradt niade by 
 Ramsay & Peart, and others for the 
 whole of the underground dead work. 
 It included the brushing, and every- 
 thing, and they did make money at it 
 and so did we. The dead work of the 
 mines at that time was so enormous 
 we could not get them reduced until 
 finally Ramsey and the two pit bosses 
 took a contract to do it at IS cents; 
 that is about 22 years ago, and they 
 made money at it. Why? Because they 
 transferred the men from one shaft to 
 another and one run today and anoth- 
 er run tomorrow and they used one 
 man on the same shaft day after day 
 and we could not do that, but they did 
 make money, but he didn't intend you 
 to understand here that the contract- 
 cr.s made a fortune out of that at five" 
 cents; not at all. He never intended 
 that that should be understood in that 
 ■waiy, but a contractor who took the 
 contract to do all the dead work did 
 make some money, and we made some 
 money by it, because when the contract 
 was through we got it done at the same 
 price they contracted to .do it at. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — Since I have so many 
 dispute what I say, I say I was correct 
 and I demand that the records be 
 brought here and read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There never was a eon- 
 tract of that kind. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I don't care whether 
 there was or not. I know what he said. 
 We were talking about five cents and 
 I asked Mr. Taylor if he considered 
 the five cents he paid over the 76 cents 
 paid by the third vein was equivalent to 
 keeping these roads, and the answer 
 Mr. Taylor made was this, he 'said: 
 "Yes, sir, I consider they have been 
 well paid. Some of them have made 
 fortunes." Then he kind of modified 
 that part of it and said, "At least they 
 have got well to do from taking con- 
 tracts." Now, then, if he referred to 
 the 15 cents contract he had a very 
 strange way of answering my question. 
 More than that, you yourselves .have 
 agreed that he did say five cents paid 
 the men well. He made that assertion 
 did he not? 
 
 MR. BENT:— He at least said it paid 
 them sufficiently; yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— All right, sufficient. 
 Now if it is sufficient to the miner 
 oughtn't it be suflBcient to the opera- 
 tor? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 don't agree with Mr. Perry on that, 
 and I explain why. 
 
314 
 
 Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then what is meat 
 for the goose Is not meat for the gan- 
 der. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Not In this case 
 Mr. Perry, and I Will give you a good, 
 honest reason why. You know that al- 
 though in the northern field we have a 
 much larger number of company men 
 In proportion to the tonnage, than they 
 do anywhere else in the state, that 
 they are not the same in number as the 
 miners. Now, as Mr. Sweet stated, it 
 is a good deal on the theory of a stitch 
 in time saves nine. The miner in a 
 majority of cases, in going to and from 
 his work and attending to his road, ob- 
 serves indications of a fall. It fre- 
 quently happens — I myself have seen 
 such cases — where a piece of rock was 
 getting loose at one end, the cracking 
 extending across the roadway onto and 
 above the building on the opposite side, 
 where a miner t)y simply sticking a 
 prop under the end of that stone, held 
 it up there securely for the life of 
 that road, until it was cut off. Now, 
 if he had not doije so the probabilities 
 are that there would have been a large 
 fall at that point. We cannot, you all 
 know — I am saying this now without 
 wishing to be critical or unreasonable 
 — and we do not get the same results 
 from the day man as we do from the 
 piece workman, that goes without say- 
 ing. We cannot begin to get the same 
 results in the examination and care of 
 those roads with company day men 
 that the miners are giving them today. 
 We maintain that the prioe paid Isi am- 
 ple to recompense the miners for what 
 we require from' t'hem. We are not ask- 
 ing anything today that we have not al- 
 ways asked. We have no intention of 
 doing that. I think Mr. Mitchell will 
 agree with me that we are less exact- 
 ing on that point today than In years 
 past. We could not, if you paid us 
 several times the prioe that the min- 
 ers are getting for brushing and keep- 
 ing the roads, we could not at the pres- 
 ent scale of wages that is paid to day 
 men, get the work done for the, price, 
 nor for several times the price. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman, that 
 being the case, that statement that Mr. 
 Buchanan has made, I do not see how 
 Mr. Bent operates his mine, I do not 
 see how an operator in the third vein 
 field operates his mine, if what he 
 states is true. They tell us they are 
 selling the coal almost at cost, or be- 
 low cost, and then they come up and 
 tell us — now Mr. Bent and the third 
 vein men have told us they are selling 
 their coal just as close as' many in 
 the Braidwood district, on just as close 
 a margin, and yet these people come 
 up and say if they had to keep their 
 own road it would cost them many 
 times the amount. Isn't that It? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— That is true. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Now it must be cost- 
 ing Mr. Bent about ten cents more a 
 ton than your coal costs you. There 
 is something radically fnconsistent. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Not necessarily. 
 
 There may be better roof conditions. 
 Certainly Mr. Bent is not paying for 
 some other things we are paying for. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— What are they? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Cross roads and 
 headings. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Oh, all right, I am 
 giad you spoke of that. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— It is always wise 
 to take into consideration all the con- 
 ditions when you are comparing con- 
 ditions. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do you mean to say 
 you are paying one man, one driver,, 
 an arbitrary extra tonnage price, not 
 because he is deserving of It any more 
 than the fellow that is In the room, or 
 anything like it, but simply because 
 you give it to him to equal and balance 
 up your district with another? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Not at all Mr. 
 Perry. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It sounds pretty much 
 to me like it. We are paying it Mr. 
 Perry because it has been customary 
 to pay it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then I suppose be- 
 cause of it being the custom your men 
 won't give it up. Now, you ask vis to 
 give up something that has been cus- 
 tomary on the one side, and on the 
 other hand you would as most assur- 
 edly refuse to give up something which 
 we might just as reasonably ask you 
 to do, because it has been customary 
 for you to get it. The woman's reason 
 foi doing a thing is "because" and this 
 one that you people have given this 
 morning is in my opinion, nearly as 
 foolish as the woman's reason. It is 
 custom, that is the reason. Now I 
 know men with whom it is customary 
 v>hen they go home at night, to give 
 their wives a pounding — it has been 
 for years. They come home drunk, it 
 is customary for those men to go home 
 drunk every night and black their 
 ■wives' eyes if they say anything to 
 them. Do you suppose they would not 
 be allowed to break that off because it 
 has been customary? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Mr. Perry, on 
 that ruling would you be willing to 
 give us the ten and nine-tenths cents 
 off on cross roads in the Wilmington 
 field? 
 
 MR. PERRY: — No, sir; because cur 
 reason is not custom by a long shot. 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Well we won't 
 i give it up for the reason that in ad- 
 dition to its being custom, it is going 
 to add to the cost. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then I would like tc 
 ask you why it was if custom Is a good 
 reason, in the third vein field they tool 
 it away from us. It was not custom- 
 ary to take it away from us when thej 
 did it. It had been customary to pas 
 it to us in that very field. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— Why was it 
 when it was not customary to pay it ir 
 the W^ilmington field, you put it on us 
 MR. PERRY:— I am not so posltiv< 
 about that but I think you paid it ai 
 long in the Wilmington field as yoi 
 did in the third vein field. I want t< 
 
Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 315 
 
 say now that I think it Is not much 
 worth while to argue it any longer but 
 I am going to say here and now that 
 there w'ill be no agreement between the 
 committee appointed in the First dis- 
 trict and the operators of that district 
 in this committee, that will carry with 
 it anything pledging the miner to dtf 
 something that is entirely beyond his 
 control. I will never agree to it, and 
 if yoi^ think you can get it in the open 
 convention, go and try it. Tou are 
 welcome to it but you will never'get it 
 from me. ' 
 
 MR. BUCHANAiST:— We maintain it 
 is not beyond the miners' control. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Do you think he can 
 put his back against the roof and hold 
 it up? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Why is it that we con- 
 tinually go back to ancient history? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Because it was cus- 
 tom. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Because it was custom. 
 I think gentlemen we want to talk 
 about the situation as it exists today 
 comparatively, and the relative rules 
 and conditions between the third vein 
 and Wilmington fields today, repeated- 
 ly referred to by the gentlemen on both 
 sides here, and I think it is necessary 
 to say in a few words what was said 
 last week; that the position of the op- 
 erators in the third vein and Wilming- 
 ton fields both, is that we are on a 
 competitive basis, selling olir coal in 
 common markets at similar prices with 
 coal of equal grade. We are on a com- 
 petitive basis of cost as near as it can 
 be arrived at, taking everything into 
 consideration. It does not detract from 
 that statement at all to show that in 
 minor details there are inconsistencies 
 in the way the money is divided up 
 among the miners in the third vein 
 field or divided up among the miners in 
 the W"ilmlngton field. Contract work 
 is not on a basis of a day wage 
 and there are inequalities as between 
 miners in a good place and miners in 
 a poor place, and we have never at- 
 tempted to claim that in all the details 
 there was exact justice between the 
 different men. We know of no way of 
 arriving at that. Our one broad state- 
 ment is that we cannot add to the 
 cost of our coal in either field and that 
 the two fields, on the whole, taking ajll 
 items into account, are on a dead level. 
 Now, you have attempted at various 
 times to equalize these questions that 
 the miners speak of by a leveling up 
 process that would throw one field out 
 of relation with the other or both fields 
 out of relation to the east and the rest 
 of Illinois, but we never doi have the 
 men coming to us to level down or get 
 rid of any inequalities among the min- 
 ers, or level on the average that ■nrould 
 equalize the cost of coal. That would 
 be a business proposition, and it has 
 never been presented to us. I don't 
 know that I have anything more to 
 .say. In speaking about the relations 
 between the Wilmington and the third 
 vein field, it is acknowledged that the 
 
 mineJ-s do more work in the Wilming- 
 ton field than the miners in the third 
 vein field, and yet the cost of the field 
 is the same, hence it is argued that 
 there Is something inconsistent in that. 
 Mr. Perry certainly realizes that the 
 physicaJ oonditSons of the two places are 
 different and on this very question of 
 the brushing and keeping of the roads, 
 the conditions are different. It does 
 not follow that there is any gain to 
 the operator in the Wilmington field on 
 account of there being more brushing 
 to handle by the miner than in the 
 third vein field at all, even on the five- 
 cent scale or any other scale. The roads 
 are entirely different. The mines are 
 nearer the surface in the Wilmington 
 field, and the roof works differently; 
 but that does not affect the question at 
 all of the cost, of coal on the top in 
 the two fields, one at 76 cents and the 
 othrer at 81 cents; one hias the cross 
 roads price and the other not. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You say that the 
 roof is different in the two fields. Which 
 one is the costliest to maintain, the 
 roof in the Wilmington field or the 
 roof in the third vein field? Which 
 cost the most? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Why Mr. Chairman, 
 others can answer that better than I. 
 I never was in a Wilmington mine in 
 my life. It is a matter purely of hear- 
 say. I understand from statements 
 made that the roof comes down more 
 readily, I don't mean the falling, I 
 mean settles more readily in the Wil- 
 mington field than in the third vein 
 field, and that is why they have differ- 
 ent rules there frojn those in our field 
 and pay more per ton for the coal on 
 that account, but I don't know any- 
 thing about that. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — You say they pay more 
 for coal in the Wilmington fields? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I say they pay a high- 
 er rate per ton on account of the extra 
 work in maintaining the roof and the 
 roadways in the Wilmington field over 
 the third vein field. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— But it does not nat- 
 urally follow because It is a harder Job 
 than in ours. Simply because they do 
 it in theirs and we don't in ours. 
 
 MR. BENT:— No, it is because of 
 everything connected with the case. If 
 the Wilmington roof settled less, didn't 
 require as much brushing before the 
 room is worked out as it does, there, 
 perhaps, didn't require any more than 
 In the third vein field, there would not 
 be the difference in the mining price 
 that there is, and there would not be 
 the difference in the rules. Each takes 
 physical conditions into account and 
 makes the cost of the coal combined. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Then you maintain it 
 takes more work to maintain a road- 
 way there than in our field? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't know. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We don't know tbat 
 they pay any more in the Wilmington 
 field than they do in others: at least 
 we cannot get It tout of your rules. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like to isle 
 
316 
 
 Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 Mr. Buchanan, does It cost more to 
 maintain a road in that Held than fn 
 ours? 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— That Is a ques- 
 tion I cannot answer. I am not fami- 
 liar with the third vein field, except 
 what I have heard here in this meeting 
 and former meetings. I have not talk- 
 ed on that question. I know nothing 
 Vifhatever about it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like Mr. 
 ■Sweet then to answer that. He has a 
 Tnine in both fields. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— You can answer that. 
 You say my coal costs t^n cents a ton 
 more in the Seatqnville mine than any- 
 where else in the field. Yoiu probably 
 know more about it than I do. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— The -reason I asked 
 that question was they stated so. Mr. 
 Buchanan said a moment ago th^re 
 v/as qu'ite a difference in the roof. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— I bepr to differ 
 -with you, Mr. Perry. You asked me a 
 question in regard to it, and I said 
 there might be difterence's. I didn't pay 
 tliat there were because I don't know. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Well, you have left 
 an Impression amomg people there that 
 there is. We have a No. 1 mine in the 
 valley where the roof is just as hard 
 to maintain. Of course, the bottom 
 doesn't heave in those mines in the 
 valley, and that Is one thing they have 
 less to contend with than they do up 
 here. 
 
 MR. BUCHANAN:— There are lots 
 of places where they don't. It is rather 
 the exception where it does. There 
 are mines in there that are very wet, 
 consequently the bottom will heave; it 
 will heave in any mine that is wet, 
 where if it was that same mine was 
 ■(Svy It would not. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is all very well. 
 I thought when we came to the ques- 
 tion of laying down, they would not 
 get up and leave the Impression here 
 that it is any harder to maintain the 
 road up there than it is here. There- 
 fore they cannot say xnat is any rea- 
 son why the operators should keep it 
 there against the operator in the third 
 vein field. It would not cost you one 
 iota more than the aggregate price 
 •down in that field for the operator tr> 
 maintain liis road than it does the op- 
 ■erator In the third vein field, not a 
 cent more, and I doubt whether ;t 
 w ould cost as much. 
 
 (On Mr. Mitchell's amendment the 
 operators voted No, the miners voted 
 Aye, and the amendment was lost.) 
 
 (On the substitute for the 16th clause 
 presented by the special committee, the 
 operators voted Aye, the miners voted 
 No, and it was lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:- Since Col. Sweet 
 has conae here and conferred with other 
 representatives of the Wllmiington 
 Held, I would like to ask if it would 
 be agreeable to them to take back to 
 the sub-district the question of treat- 
 ing falls in the roadways after the min- 
 er has complied with all the provis- 
 
 ions of the contract, to have it ad- 
 judicated there. 
 
 MR SWEET: — ^I understand it Is ro- 
 ported here that Harry Taylor has 
 tacitly or in soime way left the impres- 
 sion that he was willing to do that, 
 but I don't know about it. He has 
 never said a word to me about it. I 
 think this Interests him more than 
 anyone else in the field as he has wet 
 mines now and is in the same trouble 
 that I was in the Braidwood field years 
 ago, and I could noit answer that ques- 
 tion without having Mr. Taylor state 
 Wis position in regard to it. One ob- 
 jection I would have to doing it is 
 that we have trouble enough now re- 
 ferring matters back to our local set- 
 tlement without having more piled on 
 us, and even after we have our 
 local settlement, we have everlasting 
 trouble all the time, and We want to 
 avoid that as much as possible and 
 inake our settlement here. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Will you deny the 
 right of the miners In the Wilmington 
 field to take this matter up for local 
 settlement? 
 
 MR. SWEET: — I would If we made 
 a settlement here under the last year's 
 agreement. I do not say that I would 
 not do it in an extreme case, bat 
 with the last year's agreement If there 
 was an extraordinary case came up 
 like Mr. Mitchell has cited here It would 
 be very unfair if I did not tsike it up 
 and try and adjust It honorably and 
 fairly. I don't believe thete is any- 
 body but what would do It. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I would like to say 
 to Mr. Sweet that I don't think he 
 need have manifested very much un- 
 easiness. I don't think there is a dele- 
 gate here from the Wilmington field 
 that will agree to take it back there. 
 I don't think there is a delegate from 
 the Wilmington field but what Is de- 
 termined that question Is going to be 
 settled here at the convention, and un- 
 less it is settled here I don't think there 
 is going to be an agreement. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I want to say to 
 Mr. Perry that in asking Mr. Sweet 
 about that I spoke advisedly, and it Is 
 not necessary for him to Inform me 
 that any suggestions he makes would 
 not be acted on favorably, because I 
 know what I am talking about. But in 
 taking it back for sub-district sett.-- 
 ment I will be responsible to the Wil- 
 mington delegates for any motion I 
 make here; that we want it understood 
 as- far as I am eoncerned that thit 
 means taking it up for adjudication. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If they will agree to 
 lake It back to adjust that Is a differ- 
 ent thing; but simply to take It bark 
 simply toi say it was taken up, that is 
 another thing. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That was the in- 
 tent of my question to Mr. Sweet, to 
 take it up for adjustment. We cin 
 take 'it up to talk about it here. I 
 don't want to prolong this comflict un- 
 i:ecessarily, and there is no one more 
 anxious to get away from here than I 
 
Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 31T 
 
 am myself. I am staying here in the 
 face of stromg dem,ands and promises 
 tO' be elsewhere, and I would like to 
 see this convention over toda.y. I have 
 known tho Wilmington operators for 
 about as many years as anyone here. 
 In mosit cases since we have been or- 
 ganized they have met Issues fairly, 
 but I want to say now, and I say it 
 earnestly and honestly, that I doTi't 
 think this issue is being met fairly. I 
 don't think this issue is being met with 
 that degree of fairness that has char- 
 acterized the operators of Illinois nr 
 those of the Wilmington field on ccher 
 occasions. Here is a case wher^ it is 
 demonstrated that it is absolu'-^ly be- 
 yond the control of human endeavor 
 to prevent a fall on a roadway where 
 the fall Is as liable to come on the 
 roadway of the most skilled and pains- 
 taking miner as upon the roadway of 
 the most reckless or carieless miner. It 
 is something that no human effort ^nn 
 Jfrevent. It simply means the squeez- 
 ing of the surface, something that no 
 building can prevent, no timbers could 
 prevent; the strongest steel structure 
 you could put up would not withstand 
 the pressure of the surface which comes 
 upon the roadway, and if a fall comes 
 there after a miner has exercised every 
 care that it is possible for mining skill 
 to exercise, still the miner Is required 
 under this rule to go and clean that fall 
 at his own expense. Now, Mr. Buchan- 
 an referred to what he said he believ- 
 ed w^ere emergencies. I am free to 
 confess that these falls of large mag- 
 nitude do not come often, but I remem- 
 ber in my own experience while work- 
 ing at Col. Swee't's min'e where we 
 used to go back at night and clean the 
 roadway, and go out in the morning 
 and find a fall, on the roadway. The 
 desire of the company toi get out coal 
 made it imperative for them to hoist. 
 We would go back at nighit, and some- 
 times it would take all night. A large 
 fall would come. We would put up 
 large timbers. That was done without 
 compensation, though I don't believe 
 that is required today. There have 
 been many modificaiti'olns in the old rigid 
 rules that governed the Wilmington 
 field in days gone by, but in many cf 
 those cases if has simply been a 
 question of generosity on the part of 
 the mine foreman. They have recog- 
 nized the equity of our claim, but there 
 has been no rule that they have recog- 
 nised that entitles us to compensation 
 for the work, and we say, gentlemen, 
 that it is unfair to ask us to clean 
 the falls that come on a roadway aft :r 
 wt have taken care of it. There would 
 be just as much fairness and justice 
 were the room and pillar operators to 
 ask us to take care of their roadways, 
 and I dare say there is not a room and 
 pillar mine in Illinois where if one car 
 fell on the roadway thte miner would 
 be. required to clean It, and they never 
 would raise the quesition as to whether 
 or not the miner should clean It. The 
 company would do it. In the third vein 
 
 field it is done. I recognize the d'ifCer- 
 er.ce of five cents a ton. I recognize 
 what Mr. Buchanan says, that the 
 miners can keep the road\\ray better 
 than the company can keep it. That 
 is absolutely true, but it is not a qiies - 
 tion of brushing the roadway now, the 
 miner will brush his roadway just a.-i 
 high as he! 'ever did, he will put in 
 his bu'ildlngs just as carefully as he- 
 ever did, because he Is relieved of 
 none of the responsibility that comep 
 from careltess building or low brushing. 
 Thete is no more chance of a fall com- 
 ing on a roadway where two feet of 
 brushing has been taken than thtere Is-, 
 v^here four feet of brushlne has beeri 
 taken. Those falls do not come be- 
 cause of there being more or less brueh- 
 Ing taken. They come becausle of the 
 road squeezing, settling down, prob- 
 ably settling more on one side than the 
 other, a weak spot here and thtere. We 
 do not ask relief from any of Ithe re- 
 sponsibility of keeping our roadway as- 
 we do now, except that where falls 
 oome after we have performed all those 
 duties, the company shall be required 
 to clean them at thfeir ovyn expense. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— It is apparent, I thinks 
 to every miner, and possibly toi every " 
 operator, that under the strict rules of" 
 the eight-hour working day thfre 
 would be if we had to take care of 
 thes'e rooms, cases where the men. 
 would go out when the eight- nour 
 day's work was done, and where they- 
 would .<iee a road that needed a little 
 attention, and they would go out ind 
 leave it because the company was goin^ 
 to take care of it. But if they hari 
 to take care of it themselves they would, 
 before their eight hours were over tak'2 
 care of those falls and prevent them 
 coming down and making them more- 
 trouble than they would if they were 
 not allowed to come down. That is- 
 one of the objections to doing away' 
 with the miners taking care of the 
 roads. Now I want tt distinctly under- 
 stood that I am not in the position I 
 ought to have been in. I have taken 
 the butt end of the argument In the 
 Braidwood field btecause in our opera- 
 tors' meeting in Chicago before we 
 went to Indianapolis I insisted that one 
 operator from each district was enough 
 to go to Columbus, and I also stated 
 that I would entrust my interests -in 
 the northern field to Mr. Taylor and Mr. 
 Dalzell and in the southern field here 
 to Mr. Lukens, but I did pot propo'^e 
 to go to Indianapolis, and did not take- 
 any interest in the matter there for 
 that reason. And ' I also stated ttiat 
 whten ■w'e came home and wanted to go 
 to Peoria that I didn't propose to go 
 there, that I would still leave my In- 
 terests with Mr. Taylor and Mr. Dal-- 
 zell, but Mr. Dalzell and Mr. Taylor 
 are both sick and laid aside, and the 
 burden is largely thrown upon mte, and. 
 if I had known that it was expected 
 of me to take the butt end of this argu- 
 ment, I Should have had my superin- 
 tendent here and would have been bet— 
 
318 
 
 Morning Session, March U. 
 
 ter able to" maintain.' my ajgnment. 
 rut I have depended largely on what 
 Mr. Taylor has contended' from the 
 first. He did It in tWe Indianapolis con- 
 vention. We; distinctly insisted upon 
 it being put upon record there, that 
 we should not come back here with any 
 increased cost of our coal saddled upon 
 us. He stated it here in the joiint con- 
 vention. He stated it here on this floor, 
 and I don't see why Mr. Mitchell 
 should call us unreasonable because we 
 are standing on what Mr. Taylor has 
 lepeatedly said in this convention and 
 elsewhere. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I want to .say 
 there is no one regrets more than T do 
 the absence of Mr. Taylor when this 
 matter is under discussion, because I 
 would tell him that I should regard 
 him as very unreasonable If h'e would 
 refuse to grive this matter conSid«ra- 
 tion. Col. Sweet has referred to there 
 being a rumor that there was some 
 tacit understanding while Mr. Taylor 
 was here. I know nothing of It. 
 Mr. Taylor has not in any manner, 
 f peaking for anybody, agreed to change 
 that condlti'om there. Mr. Taylor has 
 Ftated in my presence and in the pries- 
 ence of a great many others that he 
 was always ready to meet the issue 
 -ivhen it aros'e. I presum'e he may have 
 referred to doing It as he did in one 
 other case when a large fall did come 
 on his roadway. But I do feel that If 
 the fespotislblllty has beien placed upon 
 Mr. Taylor, and If Mr. Taylor were here 
 feeling all that responsibility, and hav- 
 ing to speak for all the interests, that 
 he would meet this issue fairly, and IT 
 he did not I would tell him very quick- 
 ly as I have said now, that I regarded 
 him as unreasonable. 
 
 (Mr. Perry here took the chair.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I move you that that 
 part of the 16th clauste relating to the 
 long wall mines in the Wilmington field 
 be referred to the coming sub-district 
 .convention for adjustment, whatever 
 agreement may be reacWed there In re- 
 gard toi this matter, to become a part 
 of the 16th clause of the state agree- 
 ment. (Seconded by Mr. Heftl.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We want it understood 
 that the only thing Intended In jiy 
 -motion was the question under di&cus- 
 sion here this morning. That Is the 
 <;leaning of the fsills on the roadway 
 where the roadway has belen and waf 
 fcur feet high. 
 
 Before a vote is taken, I want toi ij.y 
 to the operators of that field tb..c it 
 lias been the custom, if you are going 
 sotmuch on custom here, for the- miners 
 and operators to take up for adjust- 
 ment any question that existed between 
 them. I believe that Mr. Taylor on 
 .two or three occasions in this conven- 
 tion, speaking for the operators of that 
 field, is on record as saying that they 
 were ready at any time to take up any 
 matter where a difference existed be- 
 tween th'em and the minters, and in 
 making this motion we are not asking 
 -for any more than has been customary 
 
 in that field in years gone by and par- 
 ticularly Since we have been working 
 under the provisions of this joint agree- 
 ment. 
 
 (On Mr. Ryan's motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners voted Aye, and 
 the motion was declared lost.) 
 
 (Mr. Ryan th'en resumed the chair.) 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— It seems to me 
 that all the time that we arei putting 
 in here is unnecessary. The operators 
 at the present time are standing firm 
 by the ultimatum that they gave us 
 at the commencemtent of this conven- 
 tion. I don't feel justified In remaining 
 here with the hopes upon the othe!r girt* 
 of getting me tlr^ed out so that at the 
 last moment I will vote for the vire- 
 vious proiposltlons that have been voted 
 down here time and timte again. We 
 came h'ere the second time for the our- 
 pose of taking up the various clauses in 
 the agreement to go over them to see 
 what we could get from the operators 
 out of them, and we have donei it, ami 
 when that was dome I believe that out 
 work as th'e joint sub-scale committee 
 was ended, and I think the time nas 
 come now that any of those clause.9 in 
 the agreement that have not been voted 
 upon should be taken up and voted 
 upon and reported back toi that joint 
 convention. This is not going to be 
 a convention of freeze-out at all. It is 
 a convention for our rights, and them 
 we are going to maintain th'em before 
 we have to leave here by being forced 
 by the other side not being able to 
 meet us half way. I am ready to go 
 home, and the. district I represent will 
 go home too If we cannot be treated 
 fairly. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The committee on the 
 lower b'elnch of Jackson county will re- 
 port. 
 
 MR. ZELLERS:— Our reiport is sub- 
 stantially the same report that we 
 made yesterday morning. There has 
 been no new matter come before the 
 committee, and we have talked over 
 the matter again, and I reiterate that 
 I have met the operators' committee 
 half way In the proposition and they 
 have seen fit to stay by their former 
 position, and the committee has dis- 
 agreed. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I move you that 
 the report be accepted and the com- 
 mittee discharged. (Secondted and car- 
 ried.) ' . 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is there no way 
 now that we can provide for somebod.v 
 to make an Investigation of that lower 
 bench matter and maJce a soaJe? There 
 is two cents' difference between the 
 miners and operators, practically one 
 now. The miners originally asked for 
 57 cents, and the operators offered 53 
 cents. They got down where the min- 
 ers offered 55 cents and the operators 
 offered 54 cents. It seems to me where 
 ar. important matter of this kind is sc 
 close to settlement that we ought to 
 be able to find some way of settling it 
 definitely. I have no plan in mind my- 
 self, but It does seem to me that that 
 
Morning Session, March 11. 
 
 319 
 
 thing could be Straightened out with- 
 out must trouble. I know last year 
 there' was a plan provided to make a 
 scale, but I am not familiar with the re- 
 sult of their action. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Nothing was done. 
 I think we ought to have somebody 
 gc there and maJce a scale; go there 
 and assume the responsibility of mak- 
 ing a scale, and make that scale' stand, 
 regardless of whether the operators get 
 the'ir price or the miners get their 
 price. 
 
 MR. HULL: — Mr. Chairman, in view 
 ot what has been said by President 
 TMitchell, I move that this matter of a 
 price for the lower bench in Jackson 
 c(.unty be referred to the president of 
 the Illinois Coal Operators' associa- 
 tion and the president of the United 
 Mine Workers of Amer'ica. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — Change your 
 motion so as to make it the president 
 of the Illinois branch, because I can't 
 • give it attention. I have soi many 
 things to do now that I will be con- 
 stantly away from here till the 1st 
 of April. 
 
 MR. HULL: — The matter was re- 
 ferred, last year toi the president of 
 the Illin'ois district of the Mine Work- 
 ers of America and nothing was done. 
 Why, I don't know. I am not criticising 
 that. I am trying to get a new com- 
 mittee. That is why I make that mo- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I will accept the 
 responsibility, but I can't do it per- 
 sonally. Someone else will have to take 
 my place if the scale is to be made 
 before the 1st of April. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I want to say that 
 the president of the Illindis miners will 
 not act upon that committee. ' 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Mr. President, I 
 contend that there was something done 
 down there. 
 ' MR. JUSTT: — There was no result. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: — There was no re- 
 sult, but somfething was done. I have 
 tried to get them together down th^re 
 after the commission and the president 
 failed. I tried the full year to get those 
 people together and make a settlement. 
 
 MR. HULL: — Just a word. I want 
 to modify the word I used there. I 
 meant no conclusion was reached. It 
 ' was not in the spirit of oritioism, 
 merely that the comimlttee had '.yee-n 
 -appointed and no conclusion reached. 
 
 MR. KEEPER:— All I intended to 
 say was that the object in miaklng the 
 motion in regard to the operators was 
 simply as tax as possible to put the 
 subject in the hands of the highest 
 authorities they could 'in the asis'oola- 
 tion. Last year they endeavored to do 
 that, and as I understand it did laboi- 
 hard- to reach a conclusion, and failed. 
 It never is any reflection because a 
 cc-mmittee fails to agree, to put the 
 same question into the hands of an ■ 
 other committee. We do that right 
 along here in our joint committee, and 
 Since the comtmissioner of the Illinois 
 Ccal Operators' association and the 
 
 state president of the United Mine 
 Workers of Illinois did labor so hard 
 to reach an agreement it wooild seiem 
 to be an imposition to puit It on their 
 shoulders again. That was the idea 
 in making the motion, to put It in the 
 bands of the president of the Illinois 
 Operators' association and th© national 
 president of the miners. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I don't want any 
 wrong impression to go out here as far 
 as Mr. Russell was concerned. He was 
 ill at the time the matter was taken 
 up. He was not able to go there, and 
 we gladly consented to the substitution 
 of Mr. Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds went 
 to Murphysboro and spent the gr'eater 
 part of the day there. Both sides 
 stated their case, but no conclusiion 
 was reached as to what should be done. 
 That was the idea I wanted toi give 
 out. I certainly don't want toi con^rey 
 any idea that there had not been an 
 effort made. I believe I have told sev- 
 eral that there has been, but We 
 couldn't get together. No conclusion 
 of any kind was reached. Mr. Russell 
 was not able to come when Mr. Justl 
 first went into the district, but Mr. 
 Reynolds w'ent representing him. Now, 
 gentlemen, I do feel that we should 
 not delay the matter any longer. Thei 
 miners having said 55 cents, we 53 
 cents, and I offering 54 cents, it looks 
 to me as if this sub-committee should 
 take some a,ctlon on the rate. I feel 
 It would only be fair. On the other 
 hand if we can't do that I don't want 
 — I know what President Mitchell has 
 on his hands — he has his hands full. 
 I would be willing to accept any man 
 that he would name to serve in his 
 stead. I want to show you that we 
 - are trying to get together in the ut- 
 most sincerity. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— We understand that 
 Mr. Hull's statement was not made in 
 a fault-flnding spirit. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I think I know 
 the feeling of those men. We have 
 tried awful hard to get them together. 
 I tried to get them to consent to take 
 the rate you are offering, and when I 
 got back from St. Louis I sent Bagwell 
 down th'ere and they jumped on us 
 for even offering 55 cents, and I be- 
 lieve that a 55-cent rate would be as 
 low as those men would take down 
 there under the conditions of working 
 that ooal. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — The question of price 
 is not before the committee. The mo- 
 tion is to appoint a special committee. 
 
 MR. JEREHIAM:— It will be just 
 like it was last year. If they can fix 
 ic here I would like to see it done, but 
 I believe the committee have given the 
 closest figures they could get. There 
 is only two or three that we could 
 send down there that would get a.s 
 near together as these three have here. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move the sub- 
 committee now rise and report to the 
 joint siiale committee at 1:30 and th^ 
 joijnt scale committee report to th'e oon- 
 
320 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 11. 
 
 \entiO'n at three o'clock. , (Seoonded 
 and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Before the committee 
 adjourns, the Chair desires to say a 
 few words. ' During your deilberation.s 
 there have been times when the dis- 
 cussion was somewhat heated and 
 times when the Chair has probably 
 been somewhat hasty, and may have' 
 ■ offended some of the members of this 
 committee. If I have done so I desire 
 now toi apologize, and to say that there 
 is no feeling whatever so far as I am 
 concerned. I have tried to do the best 
 I could, to do exact .lust'ice to all, and 
 I believe in trying to maintain order 
 I have been just as severe on the min- 
 er.« as I have been on the operators and 
 vice versa. I want to repeat that every 
 session no matter how severe I have 
 been on any person, he and I were just 
 as good friends at the close of the 
 session as any time during our de- 
 liberations, and that feeling will be con- 
 tinued by me in relation to each and 
 every member of this committee. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Before this committee 
 rises, on behalf of the operators, we 
 wish tO' speak our appreciation of the 
 Impartiality and ability of our chair- 
 man, of his avoiding technical rulings, 
 Ms absolute fairness', and his efforts to 
 dispatch business. I am not proud of 
 the rtcord of this committee, but I 
 du not think our chairman is to blame 
 for our having consumed such an un- 
 warranted amount of time. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 March 11th, 1902. 
 The joint scale committee was caJled 
 to order at 1:30 p. m. by Chairman 
 Ryan. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— The sub-com- 
 mittee is here under instructions to go 
 over the ground and get as good a 
 settlement as possible. They are now 
 ready to report. Mr. Scroggs will re- 
 port to the committee. Is It the desire 
 to have the secretary read the sections 
 In full that have been agreed upon, 
 prices, etc., or just s;tate the districts 
 in which the prices have been agreed 
 to, and read the rules and regulations. 
 I think it might be well for him to pre- 
 sent the report in full so that everyone 
 will understand what has been agreed 
 to and what has not. 
 
 REPORT OF SUB-COMMITTEE. 
 The secretary reported in detail the 
 mining prices and conditions agreed 
 to which were, in brief, the mining 
 prices shown in the agreement sub- 
 sequently adopted, except the third 
 vein, Wilmington and Clarke City lower 
 seam in the 1st district, the Jackson 
 county lower bench and Williamson 
 •county in the 7th district, and the 
 third vein In the 8th district. The 
 resolutions or conditions of the con- 
 tract approved at this time were those 
 shown in the agreement subsequently 
 adopted except the 1st, 16th and 29th 
 sections. 
 
 MR. MOORSHEAD:— Mr. Chairman, 
 would it not be well for you to ex- 
 plain? 
 
 (Note: Section 6 as reported at this 
 time was not identical with the section 
 as ^t appears in the conifract finally 
 adopted. It was afterward reconsid- 
 ered and slightly modified, as shown 
 in the record of the P. M. Session, 
 March 12th.) , 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I don't know that there 
 is any explanation to make except what 
 was made in my opening statement 
 to the committee. I understand the 
 committee was instructed to go over 
 the ground fully, make the best agree- 
 ment they could, and when they had 
 completed their work to report to this 
 full committee. Now, they have done 
 that. They have threshed out I think 
 carefully every phase of the present 
 agreement, the prices, situation, and 
 everything else, and have reached the 
 point where they could not agree on 
 anything more, and according to In- 
 structions have called this full com- 
 mittee here and made their report, r 
 don't know that there Is anything else 
 can be said along that line. The mat- 
 ter is now in the hands of the scale 
 committee. 
 
 MR. HEFTI:— Mr. Chairman, I don't 
 think that the committee desires to 
 take up the report In detail. I don't 
 believe that they desire to enter into 
 a discussion of this kind, as to whiether 
 or not to ratify this agreement. But as 
 some disposition must be made, and in 
 order that we may arrive at some con- 
 clusion I will move you the adoption of 
 this report, that is, as far as agreed 
 to, and that the committee rise and re- 
 port to the joint meeting. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. HEPTI:— The suggestion is 
 made by Mr. Bent that we strike out 
 the word "adopt" and substitute the 
 word "receive" the report. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The motion is to re- 
 ceive the report of the sub-scale com- 
 mittee and report to the joint conven- 
 tion. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 vdted Aye, and the motion was adop- 
 ted.) ' 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairman, I be- 
 lieve in voting upon a proposition the 
 other day that I wished my vote 
 recorded and reported as voting against 
 It. I still wish when this report Is 
 made that my vote be also recorded as 
 against that. I think I have tha;t right. 
 MR. BENT:— Let us all do the same, 
 Mr. Ohalrman. We all voted against 
 some things. 
 
 MR. F. J. MORRIS;^! want to be 
 recorded as voting against sections 3, 
 6, 12, 13, 15, 18, 20 and 24 of the agree- 
 ment that has been now read. 
 
 MR. O'NEIL:— I want to stand on 
 the same ground with Mr. Perry on 
 that. 
 
 MR. JOHN GREENE:- 1 don't think 
 we are willing to adopit anything Mr. 
 Chairman; we are voting just to ac- 
 cept the report. 
 MR. RYAN:— The chair understands 
 
Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 321 
 
 fully that nobody Is vO'tlng here now 
 to adopt anything'. At the same time 
 there has been no hindrance diurting 
 the sessions of the sub-commSittee or 
 this commiittee to any member thereof 
 going on record in any manner he may 
 desjre. That is a priivilege that the 
 members of the committee have. They 
 have a right to avail themselves of the 
 opportunityi 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— I would like to un- 
 derstand If I am. to report p.ny excep- 
 tions !to its adoption. I did not under- 
 stand there was anybody votSng- on 
 I this matter except the miners and 
 operators. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The statements made 
 by the delegates are a matter of reoocd 
 and will so appear in the offloial rec- 
 ords of the meeting. "We wiU stand 
 adjourned to report to^ the joiint con- 
 vention at 3 p. m. 
 
 THE JOINT CONVENTION. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 11, 1902. 
 
 The joint convention was called to 
 order at 3 p. m. by Chairman Justi. 
 'the CHAIRMAN:— When we ad- 
 journed a few days ago, gentlemen, 
 we adjourned subject to the call of the 
 joint scale committee. The joint scale 
 committeie has adjourned to repoft to 
 this convention. The conven'tion will 
 now be in order to hear the report of 
 the secretary and chairman of the 
 joint scale committee. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Chairman. Ac- 
 cording to the instructions of the con- 
 vention the scale co-mmittee selected 
 a sub-committee. They have been over 
 the ground fully and have agreed to 
 recommend a report to this conven- 
 tion. They reported a few miinutes 
 ago to the full scale committee, having 
 done all they possibly could to get aji 
 agreement and having failed to agree 
 on some of the matters submitted to 
 them, they thought the time bad come 
 to bring the matter back here and 
 let this conveption say now whait fur- 
 ther action shall be taken. Secretary 
 Soroggs of the scale committee has 
 the report In full and will submit it to 
 you. 
 REPORT OF SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 The secre^tary reported in detail the 
 mniing prices ■ and conditions agreed 
 tO' which were, in brief, the mining 
 prices shown In the agreement sub- 
 sequently adopted, except the third 
 vein, "Wilmington and Clarke City low- 
 er seam in the 1st district, the Jackson 
 county lower bench and "Williamson 
 county in the 7tb district, and the third ' 
 vein in the 8th districit. The resolu- 
 tions or conditions of the contract ap- 
 proved alt this time were those shO'Wn 
 in the agreement subsequently adopted 
 except the 1st, 16th and 29th sections. 
 
 (Note: Section 6 as reported at this 
 time was not identical w'ith the Section 
 as it appears in the contract finally 
 adopted. It was afterward reconsid- 
 ered and slightly modified, as shown 
 
 in the record of the p. m. session, 
 Mgj:'ch 12th.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I move 
 that the report of the joint scale com- 
 mittee as read be received and placed 
 on file. (Seconded by Mr. Garrison.) 
 
 MR. PARMER:— What do you mean 
 by placing it on file? We understand 
 that to do away with it altogether? 
 
 MR. BENT:— The motion means to 
 receive the report and afterwards dis^ 
 pose of it in any way the convention 
 may see proper. As distinguished from 
 laying it on the table, It is debatable 
 afterwards, while if tabled St is not. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the motion to receive 
 the report was carried.) 
 
 MR. FARMER:— I move the non- 
 concurrencei in the report of the joint 
 scale committee. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The miners voted Aye, the operators 
 voted No, and the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. FARMER:— I move you that we 
 adjourn sine die. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. J. B. "WILSON:— "Will the Chadr 
 entertain a motion to adjourn? 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— The Chair has 
 not entertained the motion. 
 
 MR. J. B. WILSON:— I move thaJt 
 the joint convention adjourn and the 
 miners stay in this hall. 
 
 THE, CHAIRMAN:— Under the rules 
 the adjournment would be until 9:30 
 in the -morning. 
 
 (The rniners voted Aye, the operators 
 voted Aye, and the joinit convention 
 adjourned until' 9:30 a. m. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. 
 
 Peoria. 111., March 12, 1902. 
 
 The Joint scale committee was called 
 to order by Chairman Ryan ^ut 9:30 a: 
 m. 1 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I desire to state to 
 the committee that the miners have 
 held a meeting since our joint mteeffing 
 and they have decided to refer the scale 
 back to the scale committee, that they 
 might take up the disputed points, and 
 if possible, enter into ah agreemenit 
 upon them and bring back a fuU re- 
 port. Our convention 'had no desire to 
 take any action upon the scale until 
 it was completed. 
 
 MJl. BAG"WILL:— I move you the 
 matter of scale be referred back to sub- 
 cornmittee. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. JOHN GREENE:— Mr. Chair- 
 man, I am of a different opinion in 
 regard to that. The sub-committee 
 has met, they have had a great long 
 siege of it,- and It didn't seem that they 
 could agree, and I don't think that it 
 will do any harm, although I didn't 
 belong to the sub-committee, I am 
 satisfied to be ruled by the majority, 
 I don't think it would do any harm 
 for the whole scale committee to be 
 present. The matter seems to have got 
 down to a serious fight and I believe 
 it would be wiser for the whole com- 
 mittee to be together. That is my 
 opinion. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I desire to caJl the at- 
 
322 
 
 Morning Sbssion, March 12. 
 
 tentlon of the miners to the motion 
 adopted at their meeting last nlg-ht to 
 refer the whole matter back to the 
 scale committee, with instructions to 
 bring- In a ' complete report. That is 
 the motion. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— I don't see any 
 necessity for referring it to the sub- 
 scale committee. Nothing has come 
 up before the sub-soale committee that 
 we don't want the full scale committee 
 to hear. I am in favor of having the 
 full scale committer remain here. 
 
 MR. DEaLiBCHAJSTTY:— I feel the same 
 way. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— How will the operators 
 vote? 
 
 MR. BENT:— We wish to vote as the 
 miners prefer, we will pass it. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I ddn't believe that the vote of the 
 miners here to adopt the motion thait 
 has been made, would be in accordance 
 with the motion adopted in their con- 
 vention last night. It says the scale 
 committee, referred back to the scale 
 committee, and I don't believe it would 
 be policy on our part at this time to 
 go against the wishes of our own con- 
 vention. 
 
 (The miners voted No, the operators 
 voted No, and the motJion was lost.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— I move we take 
 up the disputed points in their con- 
 secutive order. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: — Do you mean to start 
 at the first place of dispute in the scale, 
 that is the price, and go right through? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- 1 mean the first 
 scale of prices. If we don't agree we 
 can pass them and go on to the next. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The secretary will read 
 the first portion of the scale that has 
 not been adopted. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— "Third vein and 
 associated mines, including 24 Inches 
 of brushing, 76c." 
 
 MR. BENT: — I move the adoption 
 of that clause in the present agreemient. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Garrison.) 
 
 MR. DEGAN:— It seems to me this 
 is where we are at a standstill— ^that is 
 the joint scale committee. "We are 
 asking for different conditions govern- 
 ing those northern fields. Now, I un- 
 derstand this scale committee meit this 
 morning to see whether or not the oper- 
 ators were going to make any conces- 
 sions at all there. If not we are to 
 try and complete a full scale and re- 
 port to the miners' convention. Now, 
 I believe it lies with the operators. I 
 think it is well understood the position 
 we are in, whether we are going to 
 concede or not. I believe the time haa 
 come when we must do business on that 
 line. I can see no other way of getting 
 at it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators are pre- 
 pared to answer that question. They 
 stated explicitly more than a week 
 ago that they could not increase the 
 cost of coal in any district In this state. 
 They have not changed their position 
 since. THiat is their position today. 
 Gentlemen, this joint movement In 
 
 Illinois is dangerously near the 
 breaking point. We havp been with 
 you patiently in interstate convention 
 and protesting against the discrimina- 
 tions against the state of Illinois. We 
 reafllrmed last year's agreement whdch 
 was for unchanged prices. We have 
 come home here to this state conven- 
 tion and have labored with you patient- 
 ly for over two weeks, making no de- 
 mands upon you whatever to reduce 
 the price of mining in a single district 
 of. this state. We are here willing to 
 pay you as much for the coal you pro- 
 duce this year as we did last, which ■ 
 is the spirit of the interstate agree- 
 ment, and which is actually what Is 
 being done in other states. We have 
 been here now over two weeks. In the 
 interstate meetings the miners have 
 constantly said that the conditions in 
 Illinois were far more favorable to the 
 miners than in any of the other states 
 In this competitive movement, and that 
 your programme was to secure in these 
 other states conditions already secured 
 in Illinois. We held our peace when 
 you argued in favor of mine-run, 
 though we had things to say upon that 
 subject showing the increased percent- 
 age of small coal which would destroy 
 forever your opportunity to get the 
 mine-run system In this competitive 
 field. We said not one word to hurt 
 you. We came home here and have de- 
 voted all this time, yet one of the stages 
 where the operator enjoys more advant- 
 ages than perhaps in any other state 
 of the competitive field (at least where 
 you most bitterly complain of the con- 
 ditions) they make a settlement in 
 state convention In three days. I refer 
 to 'tJie Pittsburg district. And the 
 agreement is almost if not quite un- 
 modified from last year. Now, we are 
 here giving you the things your or- 
 ganization Is after. We are giving 
 you the mine-run system; we are giv- 
 ing you a machine differentlaJ which 
 is very different from other states; we 
 are giving you all that you ask. We 
 are giving you full and entire recog- 
 nition of your union both in the state 
 and locally. We are hiring none but 
 union labor. We are giving you the 
 check-off system which gives you the 
 funds with which to maintain your 
 organization. We are co-operating 
 with you in every reasonable thing 
 that you desire, to advance not only 
 our joint interests but your interests 
 as a labor organization. We are at- 
 tacking you nowhere. These things are 
 indisputable, and yet we are here to- 
 day with our men, after two weeks of 
 'argument, showing wny we cannot add 
 to the cost of our coal; and our men 
 here are insisting upon fundajment^ 
 changes. All that we are asking here 
 Is to continue the cost of our coal as it is 
 for another year,, in the face of the 
 fact that we got less for it last year 
 than we did the year before; and to 
 get such reasonable measures of pro- 
 tection for the operation of our mines 
 as will prevent abuses of the conitract 
 
Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 323 
 
 and give us continuous operation and 
 harmony, without oppressing a single 
 Individual, with grood machinery for 
 the arbitration of any grievance real or 
 fancied. That is our position. We gave 
 it to you a week ago, we repeat it now; 
 we canndt add to the cost of our coal 
 in a single district of this state. 
 
 MR. BAGWILL:— Mr. Chairman, if 
 that is the position of the operators I 
 see no reason in detaining this com- 
 mittee any further. We might as well 
 report back to the joint convention. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 I believe that in compliance with the 
 instructions of our convention last 
 night this scale committee is bound to 
 take back a full scale. Under those in- 
 structions, and seeing that there is no 
 necessity, or in other words that there 
 can be nothing gained by remaining 
 "here any longer, except to add to the 
 cost to both the organization and to 
 the operators of the state, it seems to 
 jne we are bound to accept the propo- 
 sition from the operator as fulfilling 
 ou;- duty, and to report it back to our 
 own body for them to take action on it. 
 I don't see that we are going according 
 -to our instructions from that body if 
 we remain here any more than to go 
 over there and take back the ultim^atum 
 of the operators to the organization 
 -tor them to say whether they -Will ac- 
 cept it or reject it, and I hope we will 
 just go through and take their ulti- 
 matum and both sides vote to accept 
 It and take it back to them with the 
 understanding that our body has got 
 through in Peoria. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— 1 would suggest to this 
 meeting that you proceed with the 
 other two disputed points on the price 
 question and that the operators iSB.uie 
 the same ultimatum that the miners' 
 delegates wiithdraw for two or three 
 minutes and cast their vote one way 
 or the other and then you will know 
 Just what they are doing. I make that 
 without taking any decided vote now^, 
 because the statement made by Mr. 
 Bent is equal to any vote they can 
 deliver to this body. Call up the other 
 two and ask their position in regard to 
 the other two points and then you will 
 know what to do. Is the position of 
 the operator in all dis.trlcts where the 
 prices are in dispute, that they will not 
 inorea.se those prices under any circum- 
 stances? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Yes, sir, it' is. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — Well the miners 
 -might as well withdraw now. 
 
 (The operators then withdrew, and 
 after they returned at 10:30 a. m., the 
 joint scale comnnlttee was called to or- 
 der by Chairman Ryan.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The secretary will read 
 the first clause In the agreement on 
 which we have disagreed. 
 
 (The secretatT^ read the clause In 
 question, and Stated that a motion to 
 adopt that was pending before the In- 
 termission. The miners voted Aye, the 
 operators voted Aye, and the clause 
 -was adopted.) 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— "Wilmington and 
 associated mines, including Cardiff, 
 long wall and Bloomington thin vein, 
 including brushing, 81c. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the clause read. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I would like them to 
 teU us w'hat they mean by brushing. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chaarman, we have 
 been telling you that for two' weejts. 
 I don't know that we dan add to any- 
 thing that we have said In that matter. 
 Brushing means what it has always 
 meant there. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— There isn't going to 
 be any argument froni Perry on this 
 question this morning, gentlemen. I 
 will take it back to the convention and 
 if this is going to stand that you are 
 going to tack on this and not going to 
 do anything only exactly wliat it meant 
 last year, then even this coming back 
 is all foolishness. I think common 
 sense will teach you people right where 
 we are at today and right where you 
 are at today. I am not expecting a rise 
 in price, never did expect it. I have 
 been trying to get some reilef from 
 those conditions. You know that is all 
 I have been trying to do. I will go 
 back and do everything in my power 
 to keep from having a strike, taut It 
 looks to me like some of you want one 
 ajid if you get one I hope you will be 
 satisfied; that's all. Some people will 
 never learn a lesson until after they 
 have had one. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is unfol^unately 
 true. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I would like to ask the 
 operators from the yViltaitLgton field, If 
 they have changed their mind to any 
 extent in regard to the position that 
 ^ve have taken, that the delegates here 
 have taken, in regard to the cleaning 
 up of falls where the. miner has cosoi- 
 pJied with all the requirements of the 
 a greement. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— I will say In regard to 
 that, Mr. Chairman, that we are will- 
 ing to stand on Mr. Taylor's interpre- 
 tation of that business; that we will 
 consider any question that comes up. 
 I think if Mr. Taylor were here he 
 would say that. We had a~^ dispatch 
 from him yesterday and his position In 
 regard to the matter, and there Is no 
 objection I think, to that being includ- 
 ed in the agreement. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^Well now, as a repre- 
 sentative of the miners of that field 
 directly, I want to serve notice on the 
 operators in the Wilmington field that 
 that point will be contested In the sub- 
 district meeting. I want to serve not- . 
 ice now before the vote is taken and 
 have it a matter of record. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Sweet and 
 Mr. Bent have let me and others see 
 the telegram from Mr. Taylor. Is there 
 objection to it becoming a part of the 
 record? 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, our pos- 
 ition is this, acting under Mr. Taylor's 
 instructions before he left; if the para- 
 graph here in regard to the Wilmlng- 
 
324 
 
 Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 ton field business, using the lang- 
 uage that it does, and the sixteenth 
 clause as reported by the oonimittfee, 
 as it relates to long wall mimes, is 
 in the precise language there einplo£_- 
 ed, ajid no objections go in the record 
 modifying the language, we are will- 
 ing to have Mr. Taylor's telegram, go 
 into the record as explaining what the 
 status is in regard to that one specific 
 point in the Wilmington field. 
 
 MR. MITCHBI/Ii:— Mr. Chairman, if 
 the votes of this committee are passed 
 in favor of that proposition then we 
 ask that that telegram be made a part 
 of the records. 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye and, the motion was adopt- 
 ed). 
 
 MR. RYAN: — 'We undertsand now, 
 Mr, Mitchell, from your remarks that 
 the t&leetram is- made a part of the 
 record. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is it satisfactory 
 to have it made now? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Chairman, in con- 
 nection w^ith the passing of the six- 
 teenth clause. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL;— Very well, we will 
 withhold it. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— The secretary will read 
 the next disputed point. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— Clarke City, lower 
 seam brushing in coal — 66 cents." 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the clause as read. (Seconded and car- 
 ried). 
 
 MR. "SCROGGS:— "Lower Bench, 
 Jackson county, for shipping mines.". 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I move that the 
 rate be 54 cents, brushing be done by 
 the operator, or if proper, I will make 
 a double motion to the effect that the 
 miners can do. the brushins: and we 
 will pay them 58 cents; the miner do- 
 ing the brushing, ,58 cents; the operatpr 
 doing the brushing, 54 cents; the min- 
 ers doing 14 inches of brushing. The 
 miners can have the option, but I would 
 like to have them decide when they 
 start to work which basis they will 
 work on. I don't want to have them 
 change around. (Seconded). 
 
 MR. RYAN:- In other words, you 
 would like it specified in the scale 
 which it will be? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Specified in the 
 scale which it will be. They can de- 
 termine. (Seconded). 
 
 It has been suggested that I with- 
 draw my motion at present. I am will- 
 ing to do so and mak,e it ,a flat prop- 
 osition' of 58 cents, the miner doing 
 the brushing. (Seconded)'. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — ^it has been moved and 
 seconded that the price for the Ipwer 
 bench in Jackson ccunty shipping 
 mines be fixed at 58 cents; the miner to 
 carry 14 inches of brushing. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I just wanted to 
 state, Mr. Chairman, that it specifies 
 there In the scale 14 inches of brush- 
 ing, and if it is not necessary to take 
 that exactly 14 inches in places, there 
 will be no contention. Mr. Gartslde 
 is not present, is he? 
 
 MR. GARTSIDE:— Yes. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I talked with hinv. 
 yesterday. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Mr. Gartslde, will you. 
 state how much brushing you will re- 
 quire. 
 
 MR. GARTSIDE:— Sufficient brush- 
 ing for a large mule will be sufficient. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We have had some ex- 
 perience in that kind of work. The 
 stipulation that Mr. Garrison makes I 
 will not accept from anybody. Kesp- 
 the road high enough to get a large 
 mule in. You might get a six-foot 
 mule. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Not exceeding 14 Inch- 
 es, of brushing. 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I said not ex- 
 ceeding 14 inches. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— With that stipulation, 
 added in Mr. Garrison's statement, it 
 is sufficient. 
 
 ' (The operators voted Aye, the min- 
 ers voted Aye, and the motion was car- 
 ried). 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The secretary will read. 
 the next disputed point. 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— "Williamson coun- 
 ty. 42 cents." 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— I mo.ve you that 
 the rate in Williamson county be made- 
 42 cents. (Seconded and carried). 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— "Fulton and Peoria 
 counties thin and lower vein (third veia 
 conditions) 76 cents." 
 
 MR. BENT:— i move the adoption of 
 the clause as read. (Seconded and car- 
 ried). 
 
 (The secretary read the first clause 
 of the present agreement). 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Chairmg-n, I move 
 to amend by adding after the word, 
 "provided" the following: "In this or 
 any other agreement between the oper- 
 ators and the United Mine Workers of 
 America." (Seconded by J. F. Mor- 
 ris). 
 
 MR. BENT:— The operators have al- 
 ready stated their position that they 
 propose to settle the cost of their coal 
 in the state convention and will not 
 sign away their liberties and then have 
 the question of -the cost of their coal 
 come up later in sub-district conven- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— This is no time for 
 (juibtaling, Mr. Bent, and whether you- 
 want to sign it or whether you don't 
 want to, what we want to bring up at 
 district meetings, we will bring up. I 
 want to say now that we have got a 
 flght on our hands in taking the posi- 
 tion we did this morning. What does- 
 this amount to? It says, "provided," 
 provided where. It means just the 
 same as I have got up and said. Why 
 don't yo.u let us put the words in wheB 
 it makes it sound all right and doesn't 
 make a bit of difference. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It means talking for a. 
 week in sub-district convention. We 
 do not want to be in sub-district con- 
 vention a week this year, gentlemen. 
 That is not a threat. It is a business 
 proposition. We are worn out. ir 
 there is any language that is different- 
 
Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 325 
 
 ihat means not deciding the question 
 •of the price of coal In sub-district con- 
 ■vention, we don't care about the lang- 
 ^lage, but that Is the position. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I claim the way this 
 reads now it doesn't hinder us taking 
 it up in sub-district. There Isn't a 
 bit of difference between the sense of 
 that, as it is already In here, and the 
 amendment put to it. I simply want 
 to make it so we will have some chance 
 without having- some people who don't 
 understand things quite so well mak- 
 ing such a fight to get it through. 
 There isn't a bit of difference. I want 
 tO' say now that we will never go back 
 ■to that convention with the first clause 
 as it is now without getting that 
 through if you are so obstinate. 
 
 MR. SWEET:— What is the use of 
 TiaVing any agreenient with the Inter- 
 slate movement? What is the use of 
 going to Indianapolis or anywhei'e else 
 or cornilng here to Peoria 'if wio have 
 g'ot to go back to the sub-districts and 
 make settlements as we used tol in the 
 years past and then fight it out In 
 separate departments. Now, if these 
 conventions are w^oorth anjrtMng, they 
 ought to settle the whole question ex- 
 cept in such cases as we are proposiwg 
 to refer back to the Braidwood field 
 and that is done for the purposp of 
 preventing this whole state Wf Illinois 
 beiing tied up simply on account of falls 
 in the roof. We consented to allow 
 that change to go In for the purpose 
 -of trying to get a settlenuent here; but 
 if, as Mr. Perry suggests, they are go- 
 ing to bring up everything under the 
 heavens that the sub-district can tack 
 •onto us, then we have made a Mistake 
 in coining here, and we have to go 
 back to the old way of settling our 
 -difficulties and I hope that that will 
 not be done. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 want to ask a 
 question here now. , If the operators 
 had a condition 'imposed on them last 
 year by the local or sub-district meet- 
 ing, would they 'oome there 'and ask 
 for that condition to be ehang-ed? I 
 want you to answer that question. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Mr. Chairman, answer- 
 ing Mr. Jeremiah, if the question of an 
 unjust or unwise regulation, yes; if a 
 questioai about the cost of the coal, 
 no, settle it here. That is our attitude 
 about the sub-district meeting. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— It may be a con- 
 dition that would add to the cost of 
 •coal. 
 
 MR. BENT: — We will discuss it here 
 then, Mr. Jeremiah. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH: —Well, I don't 
 Tinow of any particular ease, but I am 
 just asking if you have a condition 
 that was imposed last year and went 
 iDack to sub-dllstrict and found 'it was 
 a condition that was imposed ton yooj, 
 would not you ask for a change of 
 that condition? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Yes; we would as'k for 
 -it here and dispose of It here. 
 
 MR. J: F. MORRIS:— Under last 
 year's agreement, we have taken up 
 
 matters in the sub-district convention 
 that we did not settle last year. There 
 are conditions imposed upon soime of 
 the operators of our district that we 
 intend to impose upon them all this 
 time and we don't propose tO; taJte oft 
 those conditions from those wWO' are 
 now bearin,g the burden of them and 
 place them on the men who are work- 
 ing for those companies, and w« want 
 it understood here, if you want to 
 know some of the conditions that are 
 going to be enforced in our district, 
 that they are the laying of track, whlcn 
 the operators refused to take up In this 
 convention. There are operators in our 
 district that are laying all the track; 
 there are others that are la3^ng none 
 of it. TThat matter was taken up last 
 year in our sub-district, and I want to 
 say regardless of what has been said 
 here that it will be taken up In sub- 
 district and fought out if it takes all 
 summer to do it. 
 
 MR. DREWS: — I can't see why the 
 operators should be opposed toi tha 
 amendment. I remember last year in 
 our sub-district convention , the six- 
 teenth clause was adopted. W© offered 
 the operators to insert the sixteenth 
 clause in our sub-district agreement 
 time and time again and they held u.s 
 there for two Weeks to straighten up 
 the sixteenth clause in the sub-dis- 
 trict convention. It isn't all the Lime 
 the miners who' want tO' take up mat- 
 ters that need adjustment in sub-dis- 
 trict conventions. It is the operators 
 who ask that as much as the miners. 
 They want the privilege, but they don't 
 seem to want to grant us the privilege 
 of talcing up matters there that have 
 worked an injustice on us. They say 
 they fix matters in the state conven- 
 tion, but I remember that last year 
 when they didn't fix it to suit them- 
 selves satisfactorily they came back 
 there and insisted that we give a defini- 
 tion of the sixteenth clause after It 
 had been adopted at the state conven- 
 tion, and It was not the miners that 
 held that convention there last year. . 
 II was the operators who held It there, 
 and I should think that they would 
 grant us this much, grant us the 
 amendment, in order, if there is any 
 grievance to be taken up that we may 
 take It up. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the amendment was 
 lost.) 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the clause 
 as read, the miners voted No,, the op- 
 erators voted Aye, and the motion was 
 dfcclared lost.) . 
 
 MR. SCROGGS:— The next is the Ifith i 
 clause and I suppose the question would 
 better be on the substitute reported by 
 the committee. 
 
 (The secretary then read the substi- 
 tute clause.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the substitute. (Seconded.) 
 
 (The operators voted Aye.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Before the miners' vote 
 is cast, spealSing for tfhe miners of the 
 
326 
 
 Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 Wilmington field again, we wish the 
 same stipulation as was In the prior 
 question. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Wha.t was that? 
 
 MR. RTAN: — Tou remember I made 
 a motion here to refer that portion of 
 that clause relating to' the ■Wilmington 
 field, back to the sub -district, with 
 the same stipulation the matter be 
 taken up there. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We cajinot pass that 
 clause with ariy stipulation or qualifi- 
 cation whatever, as a clause. If it 
 ptands as a paragraph, meaning just 
 what it says, we are willing thait there 
 shall be introduced intoi the, record, just 
 followiing It, the telegram referred tc, 
 sxplaining' the status of the miners 
 a,nd operatprs, under the leth clause, 
 pi'ith relation to that one point in the 
 Wilmington field, which has been dis- 
 :ussed here. No statement on either 
 side regarding it, except that it is in- 
 troduced as showing the status in sub- 
 l?strict donventloB. That was thie ques- 
 tion. 
 
 (The miners vffted Aye, and the 3ub- 
 ilitute was carried.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— rollowlng that we 
 would like to introduce a telegram. 
 Che telegram is the property of the 
 )perators, but they let the committee 
 )f miners have St tio try and straighten 
 yut that matter, and I think I have it 
 u my pocket somewhefe. I might ex- 
 plain to the committee that in trying 
 !o reach some agreement on the 16tli 
 ilause, statements were made regiard- 
 ng the attitude of Mr. Taylor, who was 
 impelled to leave here, and a letter 
 vas sent to Mr. Taylor by the operators 
 ind this was his reply. It was s^ven 
 c part of your sub-committee for the 
 jurpose of trying to, satisfy them as 
 o what Mr. Taylor's attitude would be 
 fn this question. The telegram is as 
 allows: "Herman Jusiti, Peoria, Tlll- 
 lois. Tour letter of tenth enclosing 
 tatement from Mr. Bent. Have taken 
 natter up with Mr. Taylor and he 
 tates as follows: 'The rules of the 
 Vilmington field require that men shall 
 )rush and maintain road four i-eet 
 ligh from the rail to the first switch, 
 yroViding it does not exceed 100 yards. 
 4en are responsible for falls on men's 
 oads. Anything new pertaining to 
 hese falls is purely a local question, 
 'he wording of last year's scale agree- 
 aent covering Wilmington field must 
 :o into new agreement in exact lan- 
 11 age. We have always been willing 
 o take up local questions with our 
 aien in sub-district meetings. (Signed) 
 . D. Ca.vanaugh." 
 
 MR. JOHN GREENE:- 1 wouid like 
 rj have that section read over in re- 
 ard to the inspector, where the in- 
 pector comes in. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— That is the docking- 
 lause. 
 
 MR. JOHN GREENE:— Tes, the coal 
 ispector. 
 
 MR. RTAN:— Let us get through 
 r'ith the disputed points first. Tha 
 
 secretary will r^ad the next disputed 
 point. 
 
 (The secretary then read the 29th 
 clause of the present agreement.) 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I move we adopt 
 the 29th clause as- read. 
 
 MR. BENT: — The operators' substi- 
 tute for tMs is somewhat more sweep- 
 ing and we understand is objectiomabte 
 to the miners. Mr. Ryan has expre^- 
 ed himself about that, but it includes 
 In it one thing which the miners havi 
 frequently held and thfe operators have 
 frequently held. It is sufllclent to let 
 the statement go into the record, and I 
 believe it wSll be of benefit to both 
 sides, that any agreement made In sub- 
 district or locally which Is 4n violation 
 of the inter-state or state agreement 
 Is null and void. That point has been 
 frequently made by the miners and if 
 it goes in the record. It is all that we 
 care for. 
 
 MR. RTAN: — We are all agreed on 
 that proposition. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— I think the 2.Srd 
 clause of the agreement would cover 
 that. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We want it made May 
 1st instead of April 1st. 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN:— Make the date 
 to suit the occasion. 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the 29th 
 clause of the- present agreement ap 
 read, with date changed, the oiperators 
 voted Aye, the miners voted Aye, and 
 i; was carried.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask the secretary to read the 20tli. 
 I clause of the agreement. Wa© any 
 change made from last year's agree- 
 ment? 
 MR. SCROGGS:— No, it is Identical. 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move toi strike 
 out the word "shall" and insert the 
 word "may."- (Seconded and carried.) 
 MR. BENT:— I move the adoption of 
 the first clause of the present agree- 
 ment, with the date changed so as to- 
 read "Beginning April 1st, 1902," and 
 changing the word Columbus, to In- 
 dianapolis. (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move to amend 
 by Inserting after the word "provided," 
 the words in the 29th clause. (Sec- 
 pnded.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— That Is simply another 
 way of putting the thing that we have 
 been discussing. The first clause re- 
 lates to one thing only, and the 29th 
 clause relates to matters in general. 
 The first clause is designed to declare 
 out of order at sub-districts and local 
 meetings questions that add to the cost 
 of coal which we are determined here 
 shall not occur in the different dis- 
 tricts of this state. The 29th clause is 
 designed to -revent local demands> 
 except what are made here or in sub- 
 district convention. There are ques- 
 tions that can properly come up ire 
 sub-district conventions and which we 
 do not intend to rule out at all, but the 
 29th clause is to prevent demands being 
 made after the sub-district conventions 
 have been held. The question of the 
 
Morning Session, March 12. 
 
 327 
 
 cost of coaJ we cover by tlie first 
 clause, which says that these ques- 
 tions are in order here, and are not in 
 order anywhere else. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:-! will have to 
 differ with Mr. Bent. I asked him a 
 direct question In regard to change 
 of conditions awhile ago, and he re- 
 served the answer. The 29th clause 
 says, how those provisions shall come 
 up ah local and sub-district meetings, 
 and If we have no local and sub-dis- 
 trict^ meetings, they can be referred to 
 tJie United Mine Workers and the par- 
 ties interested. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The record a year ago 
 shows plainly that "except as may be 
 provided," and It was distinctly stated 
 a year ago, that questions that affected 
 the cost of coal could not be taken 
 up in sub-districts. 
 
 MR. MirCHEL,L,:— There isn't a 
 single condition that you take up in 
 suib-dlstrlct meeting that doesn't in 
 some way affect the cost of production. 
 It doiesn't matter whether It is t!he 
 most immaterial regulation governing 
 the employes or the management of the 
 mines it will indirectly affect (often to 
 a very small degree) the cost of pro- 
 duction. A regulation that will In- 
 crease or decrease the output of a 
 mine, that will require the men to be at 
 their working places, or conduct them- 
 selves In any particular manner wMile 
 at their work, affects to some exrtent 
 the cost of production, so that if you 
 propose to carry out to its logical con- 
 clusion the statements you have made 
 here that you will not consider the 
 question of anything that will Increase 
 the cost of production, at your sub-dis- 
 trict meetings, then you had better 
 not hold any sub-district meetings', be- 
 cause there isn't anything that will 
 come up there that will not Indirectly 
 cover the cost of production. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The intent is not to rule 
 out those things that have the slight 
 indirect effect that Mr. Mitchell speaks 
 of, because I must agree to his state- 
 ment about that, but the things that 
 have a direct effect upon the cost of 
 coal — material effect, are the things 
 that we refer to. Mr. Perry has in 
 ^ind a matter that he wants to bring 
 up in cur district that is a very good 
 illustration. It is entirely in order in 
 the sub-district meeting: It would 
 have a slight indirect effect on the cost 
 of coal. It has no material effect on 
 it whatever. It is a question of ad- 
 ministration in the mine, and is en- 
 tirely in order. 
 
 (On the amendment proposed by Mr. 
 Mitchell, the operators voted No, the 
 miners voted Aye, and the amendment 
 was lost). 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- 1 cannot see how 
 the operators could vote "no" on the 
 amendment and leave the 29th clause 
 in there, because the first clause un- 
 doubtedly refers to every clause in 
 that agreement, including the 29th and 
 including the 20th clause. It says, "ex- 
 cept as may be provided" and the pro- 
 
 visions of that agreement is what it 
 applies to. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The first clause refers 
 to the cost of coal; the 29th clause re- 
 fers to all other things. 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Every clause in 
 that agreement applies to the cost of 
 coal. 
 MR. BENT:— Not directly. 
 MR. JEREMIAH:— Not directly but 
 indirectly. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — If an' agree- 
 memt is reached between ithe opera- 
 t'ors and miners in this convention 
 the operators are not going toi be the 
 supreme court to pass upon the inter- 
 pretation of the agreement, their de- 
 cision is not going to be final as to 
 what .the agreement means, and re- 
 gardless of what construction Mr. Bent 
 may place upon the 29th clause or the 
 first clause, he is speaking for the opl- 
 erators, and that is not final. We too, 
 are going to pass on it, and while I 
 believe that the only proper way to in- 
 terpret any agreement or any provi- 
 sions of an agreement is to do it joint- 
 ly, still if one side is going to attempt 
 to do it alone, the other side is going 
 to attempt to do it alone. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Don't you believe that 
 the proper place to consider the ques- 
 tions that directly and materially af- 
 fects the cost of coal is in the state 
 a,nd interstate conventions and that the 
 work of the sub-district meetings 
 ought to be confined to matters of car- 
 rying it out and of administration. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I do believe that 
 as far as it Is possible to close up our 
 agreement we -should do it in our na- 
 tional convention, and failing in that 
 I believe that we should try and close 
 it up in our state convention, but 
 where we fail because' of diverse inter- 
 ests in the state conventions, we have 
 got to refer matters that are merely 
 local to the sub-district, back to the 
 sub-district. The trouble has Ibeen In 
 our national and state conventions that 
 so many diverse interests are repre- 
 sented that often one particular dis- 
 trict is not permitted to pass upon the 
 merits of various questions we may 
 bring up, because of the danger of it 
 being construed by the miners and the 
 operators as a help to enforce condi- 
 tions in other districts. I feel saJe in 
 saying that, because I know that the 
 operators from the Wilmington field 
 would not have taken the position 
 they did on some questions here, were 
 they the only interests that were rep- 
 resented here. 
 
 MR. BENT:— This is not a northern 
 Illinois question, because we are not 
 apprehensive about the northern Il- 
 linois situation. It is the question of 
 the principle involved and for the fu- 
 ture. I take it that we are not afraid 
 to meet ooir men In any sub-district of 
 this State on, this or any other ques- 
 tion. Our position relates wholly to the 
 consumption of unnecessary time arid 
 doing the same work over and over. 
 Mr. Mitchell certainly agrees with us 
 
328 
 
 Morning Sbssion, March 12. 
 
 that, there is no excuse whatever for 
 the Eumount of time we have taken 
 this year to make a settlement, and vre 
 almost waste th-e time in inter-state 
 convention, and I will say this, were 
 it not for ttoe sympathy we have for 
 the work that the national organiza- 
 tion isi striving to do, and the feeling' of 
 respect for the present administratd'on 
 under Mr. Mitchell in trying to accom- 
 plish that Inter-state work, the oper- 
 ators of Illinois would not have been 
 at Indianapolis this year. It is hard 
 for Mr. Mitchell or anyone to show 
 what we'' got there. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Did anyone discover 
 what we got? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I give it up. We want 
 to promote the honest business ideas 
 wWich this moveinient represents and 
 ' doesn't carry out; that is why we were 
 at Indianapolis. The time we have 
 taken here is a grave element in help- 
 ing us to determine whether we will 
 go to any more inter-state conventions 
 or not. Now, that is the whole ques- 
 tion, gentlemen. Over two weeks here 
 and still the sub-district meeting com- 
 ing. We are busy men and we cannot 
 consume so much time. But back of all 
 this, there is one great objection, gen- 
 tlemen, to the procedure as it now 
 stands, and as you would have it stand 
 in tlie sub-district, and it has always 
 existed, and it is this: we meet one set 
 of men at the inter-state convention; 
 we meet to a considerable extent an- 
 other set of men in the state conven- 
 tion who are not posted about what 
 already has been done, who represent 
 new ideas, and then we meet almost 
 entirely a different set of men in the 
 sub-district convention, whoi require us 
 tO' go over again the same work that we 
 have done before, and men who are not 
 in' sympathy ■w'itti the work you do 
 here, are not the same character of 
 men, are not business men, are not 
 posted men, and sometimes are not 
 men of character. We respect the ma- 
 jority of the men that we meet hefe In 
 these conferences, and the same thing is 
 not true of a great -nany men that we 
 meet in sub-districts. It is purely a 
 business proposition; not because we 
 are afraid, but because we don't want 
 to do business over and over, that we 
 want to do less business at the sub-dis- 
 tricts and help to make the joint move- 
 ment a success. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I know that ev- 
 erybody here is anxious now to get 
 away, and while I recognize that there 
 is some just cause for criticising our 
 metliods of doing business, that the 
 movement is not all that either the 
 miners or the operators hope i' will 
 be, still the miners are no more re- 
 sponsible for these details and the pro- 
 longation of our discussions than are 
 the operators. I dare say that more 
 than one-half the time of the scale 
 committee and the sub-scale commit- 
 tee has been taken up trying to adjust 
 questions of very little importance. Day 
 after day we stayed in here trying to 
 
 fix prices for mines that had a tonnage 
 of two or three thousand tons a year. 
 Men here representing thirty-five or 
 thirty-six thousand miners, operators 
 representing untold millions of capital, 
 here trying to fix the price for a mine 
 that happened to have four thousand 
 tons output In a year. If the jrant 
 movement fails to come up to that 
 standard that we all hope It will come 
 to, all the responsibility does not rest 
 with the miners. I want to say for 
 the joint movement, with all its fail- 
 ings. With all its faults, that it Is the 
 best movement of employers and work- 
 ers that we have in America. It Is a 
 movement that has done more for the 
 coal operators and coal miners than 
 all the strikes they have had in the last 
 thirty years, and we hiave got to bear 
 with its imperfections with the hope 
 that it will grow better. We hope for 
 that, we expect that. I don't know 
 any good reason why we shouldn't meet 
 here and settle our disputes in less than 
 one week and ge't all out of it that 
 either of us get now, but that time has 
 not come yet, it is not here, much as 
 we hope for it, but it does seem to me, 
 gentlemen, that the Illinois operators 
 can ill afford to again do as they did 
 once In the history of the joint confer- 
 ence movement. They can't afford to 
 be responsible for its failure by with- 
 drawing from. it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Chairman, I think 
 we can heartily indorse practically ev- 
 erything that President Mitchell hgs 
 said. What I before said was simply 
 to point a moral, and to show why, ad- 
 mitting all the imperfections, as Pres- 
 ident Mitcliell and I both do, show 
 cause why we want to eliminate those 
 imperfections as rapidly as possible, 
 and one way that we can reduce the 
 length of time taken and take away 
 much of the irritation that now exists, is 
 by doing our work as much as possible 
 in one place and not making so much 
 of the sub-district meetings, especially 
 till such time as you will let us meel 
 the same business men there that we 
 do here, men that respect each other, 
 look into each other's eyes and talk 
 sense., 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted No, and the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: — I don't see why yoi 
 want it in there. I think, a motion tc 
 strike it out of the agreement woulc 
 be the proper thing. The subject mat- 
 ter is fully covered. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like t< 
 oifer another amendment to the firs 
 clause. I would like to make it rea( 
 as follows: In the last line strike ou 
 the words "be provided," and make 1 
 read "except as may be contemplate! 
 in the 29th clause." (Seconded by Mr 
 Perry.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't think that th 
 miners are aiming at anything harmful 
 
 MR. RYAN:— We never do, Mr. Beni 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is wihy I made tii 
 statement; but the amendment is Si 
 indefinite and will lead to any amoun 
 
AFfERNooN Session, March 12. 
 
 329 
 
 •of confusion and extended discussion 
 and controversy in sub-districts and I 
 think that what I say of that would 
 pertain to ajiy amendment that could 
 "be made. Our object is to end the 
 discussion of the cost question here In 
 this state convention, except the inci- 
 dental and Indirect effect on the cost 
 lay administrative measures. It has 
 been stated by your officials that It is 
 a closed contract anyway and changes 
 can be" made only by consent ©f both 
 parties. That is true, and protects us in 
 the final event, but it does not gfuard us 
 against all sorts of demands and the 
 consumptipn o* a gTea,t deal of time, 
 and for that reason we are not In favor 
 of any amendment of that character. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL,:— Mr. Chairman, I ' 
 cannot see the objection of Mr. Bent 
 and thie operators to the amjendment. 
 He says that It does not, guard them 
 against the consumption of time. I 
 Wish to say that under the 29th clause 
 of the present agreement, you have the 
 same difficulty to overcome. Tiie 29th 
 clause provides that any matters that 
 ■are taken up must be agreed to mutu- 
 ally, and President Mitcihell's amend- 
 ment Is, "except as may be contem- 
 plated in the 29th clause," which means 
 that If a miner tries to Introduce some 
 matters in the sub-district meetingsi, 
 that it must be agreed to, mutually as 
 to whether It shall be taken up or not. 
 If an operator attempts to introduce 
 somiething it must be agreed to before 
 it can be taken up and discussed. 
 
 MR. BENT:'— Pardon me, Mr. Russell, 
 what would be the effect if It oamie 
 :Erbm a miner or an operator if the other 
 side didn't agree to it? 
 
 MR. RtrSSELL: — Under the 29th 
 -clause It could not be taken up and 
 discussed. 
 
 MB. BBOSTT: — But under your plan if 
 -one side asks something and the other 
 •side denied it? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— It would be exactly 
 the same thing as we have been going 
 through here for several weeks. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It would mean no 
 ■change at that place and a closed con- 
 tract ? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That is all that I 
 can see in It, Mr. Bent. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— President Russell, 
 is it not true that there has never been 
 a strike in Illinois ■wiiich has gro'wn 
 out of demands made in a sub-meet- 
 ing? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— There never has. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It has been threatened. 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I am simiply stat- 
 ing my understanding of the 29th 
 clause, and I cannot understand where 
 the first clause with the amendment can 
 in any manner change it. Perhaps I 
 did not understand Mr. Bent's ques- 
 tion. He asked me would it be a closed 
 agreement. I answered the question by 
 saying thait it would remain in just the 
 same position as we have been here for 
 the past two or three week?. I don't 
 consider but what under the 29th clause 
 today, if you might stay there for a 
 
 week or two weeks, arguing any mat- 
 ter as to whether you should take up 
 and try to adjust any matter. 
 
 MR. BENT:- What I meant by rny 
 question was, supposing you had dis- 
 cussed the matter and failed to agree 
 upon any change, then does the condi- 
 tion remain as before and the work 
 continue, or If the operator makes a 
 demand in sub-district convention and 
 the miners refuse it, has he a right to 
 shut do'wn his mine to get it, and if 
 the situation Is reversed, have the min- 
 ers a right to strike in any sub-district 
 if a dem,and of the men in the sub-dis- 
 trict conventon is not granted, or if 
 there is no mutual change, do the pres- , 
 ent rules in the sub-district continue? 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— That would . be a 
 pretty hard question to answer here. 
 I would not be prepared to ans'wer Iti 
 
 MR. JEREMIAH:- The reason the 
 miners are insisting that be put in> 
 there is, there may be a provision im- 
 posed upon an owner he doesn't like, 
 there may be a condition imposed on 
 the miners in sub-districts they don't 
 like, and they may get together and 
 trade, and it won't injure either one 
 of them very much. Lots of times you 
 trade horses and don't get any more 
 valuable 'horse, but ' one that suits you 
 better than the one you traded. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Sometimes it doesn't. 
 
 (The operators voted No, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the amendment was 
 declared lost.'> 
 
 MR. BEINT:— Mr. Chairman, I have 
 here a suggestion which is aimed at 
 meeting the purpose of the miners as 
 expressed here, and at the same timfe 
 safeguarding the sub-district conven- 
 tions from attacks that will make the 
 meetings unnecessarily protracted, com- 
 ing from people wht^ are not familiar 
 with what has been done in the state 
 convention. I offer for discussion, witii- 
 out rrialdng a motion, the omission of 
 the first clause and amending of the 
 29th so as to read as follows: "There 
 sltall be no demands made locally that 
 are not specifloaliy sot forth in this 
 agreement, except as agreed to in 
 sub-district meetings held prior .to May 
 1st, 1902; provided that mo demands 
 made and denied in atate convention, 
 or demands directly affecting the cost 
 of coal, can be enforced in any sub-dis- 
 trict or local meeting." 
 
 Adjourne(^. 
 
 JOINT SCALE COMMITTEE. ■ 
 Peoria, 111., March 12, 1902. 
 
 The joint scale comndttee was called 
 to order at 1:30 p. m. by Chairman 
 Ryan. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The first clause in the 
 present agreement was under discus- 
 sion when the committee adjourned. 
 Did Mr. Bent's motion meet •with a 
 second ? 
 
 MR. BENT: — I made no motioli; 
 I offered that as a suggestion to this 
 committee as' a solution of this' matter. 
 I move the adoption, of the mo'dlflciition 
 
330 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 12. 
 
 of the 29th claJuse which I sug-geste'd 
 before adjournment. (Seconded.) ' 
 
 (The operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted No, ajid the motion was lost.) 
 
 MR. BEaSTT:— I move the adoption of 
 •the first clause of the present agree- 
 m^ent. (Seconded and adopted.) 
 
 MR. RTAN:— I believe that comipletes 
 the adoiption of the disputed points in 
 the agreement. What Is the pleasure ' 
 of the committee? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— There is one question 
 In the sixth clause, I believe it is, about 
 the docking question. Now, I am not 
 getting up here to regrister any protest 
 or anything of that kind against that 
 clause, because personally I think It is 
 as good a clause as we are capable of 
 getting up, but there Is one little point 
 in it that a great many of the miners 
 have registered a kick agadnst, and in 
 fact it seemed as if there wasn't a man 
 in the whole convention who could pos- 
 sibly grasp the idea that there was any 
 fairness In the clause from, one end to 
 the other, but I think that can be over- 
 come tO' a great extent. But there is 
 one point in it, the matter of discharge:. 
 They asked me the question, supposing 
 a man was discharged- for loading dirty 
 coal in an aggrsLvated case, or even 
 for the third offense. Supposing it came 
 to the last resort, and he was dis- 
 charged and he would make a protest 
 saying that he liad been unjustly dealt 
 with, and the sub- district president 
 would be sent for. If, when the sub- 
 district president came to examine into 
 this case there was no provisions for 
 that rock to be shown up, how could he 
 adjust the matter? Now, this is a ques- 
 tion of some moment. Certainly no 
 man can investigate a case unless there 
 is some grounds tO' go upon. I want 
 to suggest to the operators that we 
 have an understanding to thei effect 
 that in cases of discharge the inspector 
 will take care that there is the rock to 
 show in such cases where the question 
 of discharge came in. I don't think 
 there is anything unfair about it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That is satisfactory, 
 Mr. Perry. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Just so that is a mat- 
 ter of record, that is all I ask. 
 
 MR. JOHN GREEN:— To fully un- 
 derstand that clause I would like to 
 have it read. 
 
 (The secretary read the clause in 
 full.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL,:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 don't rise for the purpose of question- 
 ing at all the good intentions" of the 
 committee that drafted that section, 
 but I do believe that it is ambiguous 
 and susoeplble of misconstruction. I 
 believe that you will g-et the same re- 
 sults by eliminating some of its ob- 
 jectionable features. You, gentlemen, 
 noted with what der'ision it was re- 
 ceived in the miners' convention yes- 
 terday. For myself, I think that that 
 section of it which inflicts greater pun- 
 ishment for the first offense in a month 
 following a month in which offenses 
 were committed, should be stricken out. 
 
 and that in the month following a. 
 month in which there "was one or more 
 offenses, the first penalty should only 
 be inflicted upon the person commlitting- 
 the offense. I believei that that section 
 which fines the miner, or anyone who 
 seeks to embarrass the inspector should 
 be eliminated. The fact thiat , you re- 
 move the inspector from the jurisdic- 
 tion of the local union or the pit com- 
 mittee is sufficient. If he lis not under 
 the authority of the president of the 
 local, the pit committee or the local 
 union themselves, they will not seek to 
 embarrass him, and I believe the best 
 thing you can do is to ellmBnate those 
 two. objectionable features.' If I un- 
 derstand the oomplaints of the opera- 
 tors properly — and I have heard them 
 hundreds of times— 'their principle ob- 
 jection to the present agreement is that 
 the check -weighmen or the car trim- 
 mer and check weSghman being re- 
 quired to pass upon the evidence of an 
 offense, and they being under the jur- 
 isdiction of pit committees and local 
 unions, that has prevented them from 
 performing Iheir full duties, and acting- 
 impartially. I think it would be bet- 
 ter to eliminate thos^e two o,bjectionable 
 features. I move that section six of 'the 
 ^proposed agreement be referred to a 
 spedai Oommittee for modification. 
 (Seconded by Mr. Garrison.) 
 
 fThe otiRrato- ' voted Aye, the mi;i>-rF 
 voted Aye, and the motion was adopt- 
 ed.) 
 
 MR. RYAN: —The miners will appoint 
 William Hefti, H. C. Perry and Eugene 
 Zellers. 
 
 MR. , GARRISON :— The operators, 
 Messrs. Cutts, Berit and Keefer. 
 
 (The committee then withdrew for a 
 few minutes and the committee took a 
 recess.) 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Ohadrman, your 
 committee recommends as a substitute 
 for the clauses already adopted by this 
 committee the following': "In case 
 slate, bone, clay, sulphur or other im- 
 purities are sent up with the cool by 
 the min^, it shall be the duty of whom- 
 ever the company shall designate as 
 inspector tO' report the same, with the 
 estimated weight thereof; and the min- 
 er or miners go offending shall have 
 such weight deducted from the estab- 
 lished , weight of the car, and for the 
 first offense in any given month shall 
 be fined fifty cents; for the second of- 
 fense in the same month, he or they 
 shall, at the option of the operator, be 
 fined two dtollfirs or suspended for 
 two working days; and for the third or 
 any subsequent offense in the same 
 month, or in malicious or aggravated 
 cases for the first or any subsequent 
 offense^, the 'operator may Indefinitely 
 suspend or discharge. The company 
 weighman shall post in a conspicuous 
 place at the pit head the names of all 
 miners deialt with hereunder. The in- 
 spector designated by the operator shall 
 be a memiber of the U. M. W. of A., 
 but in the discharge of the duties here- 
 in specified shaJl not be subject to the 
 
Afternoon Session, March 12. 
 
 331 
 
 jurisdiction of the local union or pres- 
 ident or pit committee^ and agalinst any 
 miner or committee mian seeking' in any 
 way to embajTass the inspector in, or 
 because of the discharge tjf, soich- du- 
 ties the provisions of the mlmeirs' state 
 constitution shaJl be invoked and in ad- 
 dition he shall, at the optiom tof the op- 
 erator, be suspended for two woilctng 
 days. In case it shall be alleged by 
 either the local representatives of the 
 miners or by the operator that the ipi- 
 spector is not properly perfoirmling his 
 duties hereunder, it shall be so repomted 
 to the miners' suib-dlsitrict president, 
 who shall within forty-eight hours aft- 
 er the' receipt of notification taJce it up 
 with the superintendent of the com- 
 pany for adjudication ;anid if It shaJl 
 be found that the inspector is not faith- 
 fully performing such duties he shall 
 be discharged or transferred to other 
 duties, ias the operator may elect. The 
 proceeds of all fines hereunder shall be 
 paid to the miners' sub-district seore- 
 tary-treasurer, and under no circum- 
 stances' shall any suoh fine be remitted 
 or refunded." 
 
 MR. RUSSELL:— I move the adop- 
 tion of that clause. (Seconded by l^r. 
 Garrison and adopted.) 
 
 MR. MORRIS: — Have you come to an 
 agreement on all the sections attached 
 to that scale? 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I think so. 
 
 MR. J. F. MORRIS:— If so, I move 
 that we now adjourn' and report back to 
 our respective bodies. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- 1 am in favor of the 
 motion that the brother made. I would 
 lUc© to have it made this way though, 
 that we now adjourn to mieiet in joint 
 convention tonight at half-past seven. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't think iit is 
 very important about the meeting. If 
 the miners' convention decides tO' ac- 
 cept it, they will instruct their officers 
 to execute the contract. If they 'will 
 not accept it and this is all the opera- 
 ors propose to dO', this is final, and we 
 can notify them and go home. There 
 ^isn't any use in our comlijg back to 
 the oonvc'n'tion tO' argue the matter. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The representatives of 
 our association can be found at this 
 hotel to execute a contract if that is 
 the decision. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— There is one oth- 
 er thing. I presume if it were neces- 
 sary to ask a committee tof 'operators to 
 visit our hall, to explain arty matter, 
 that we could get you at the hotel? 
 
 MR. GARRISON:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I don't know that 
 that request will be made, but we want 
 to know if it will be satisfactory to 
 you. 
 
 MR. GARRISON: — We -nail stay 
 around hera where w^e can be reached. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Is it ne<}essary to move 
 a reconsideration of the motion pro- 
 viding for a joint o&nventioii this even- 
 ing'? 
 , MR. MITCHELI,:— I think not. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— The motion has not 
 been carried. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like the 
 operators to show the explanation of 
 the docking clause. Possibly the agree- 
 ment iltself might not convey the In- 
 'tenit of it to every delegate. You ob- 
 serve that one part of it provides for 
 the remlovail of the insnector in the 
 event of it being claimied thaJt he; 
 wasn't performing his duty. That 
 means ithalt he may be removed ©tthcr 
 upon complaint of the miners or of the 
 operators. If the miners claim he Ifa 
 not acting fairly to them and the com- 
 plaint is made to the sub-district 
 president, he may take it up with the 
 operator and have the inspector re- 
 moved. The oi)erator may do the same 
 thing. If the loperator claims he is 
 nlot performing his duty, he may take 
 St up with the district president and 
 have the inspector removed, so that our 
 rights and our protection under the 
 provision are equal. Is that correct? 
 
 MR. BENT: — Tha/t is corect, except 
 it should be added simply that lif he 
 is to be rem'owed from that position 
 he may either be discharged or trans- 
 ferred to siome either woi'k, as the op- 
 erator nuay elect. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Yes, sir that if 
 
 THE CHAIRMAN: —Any further 
 business before this commlittee? If 
 not, the oO'nMrilttee will stand adjourn- 
 ed sine die. " 
 
 Springfield, 111., April 4, 1902. 
 O. L. GARRISON, Esq., 
 
 Preslidenit Illinois Coal Operators' 
 Association. 
 Dear Sir: — We deeim it necessary, in 
 order to make the record of our joint 
 convention complete, to report to you 
 the action of the United Mine Workers' 
 convention after adjournmenlt of last 
 joint session. When the complete re- 
 port of joint scale committee wias read 
 to the convention, a motion was made 
 to instruct Presiident Russell to cast 
 vote of convention for the pro'posed 
 agreement. On this motion the roll was 
 called, and it resulted in the following 
 vote: 216% for, 152% against. ' The con- 
 vention then, by motion. Instructed 
 President W. R. Russell, Vice Presi- 
 dent Thomas J. Reynolds and Secretary 
 W. D. Ryan to sign the agreement in 
 behalf of the United Mine Workers of 
 Illinois. 
 
 Yours truly, 
 
 W. R. RUSSELL. 
 
 THOS. J. REYNOLDS. 
 
 W. D. RYAN. 
 Immediately following the adjourn- 
 ment of the miners' meeting April 13, 
 1902, the oflHcers of the respective or- 
 ganizations executed the following 
 agreement: 
 
 WHEREAS, A contract between the 
 operators of the Competitive Coal Fields 
 of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana and Illi- 
 nois, and the United Mine Workers of 
 America has been entered into at thft 
 City of IndianapoliSi Indiana, February 
 8, 1902, by which the present scale of 
 prices at the basic poin'ts as fixed b.v^ 
 the agreement m'ade in Indianapolis,. 
 
a32 
 
 AFTERNOON Session, March 12. 
 
 Indiana, February 2, 1900, lis contiimed 
 in force and effect for one year from 
 April 1, 1902, to March 31, 1903, inclus- 
 ive;, and, 
 
 WHEREAS, T^his contract fixes the 
 pick mining priice of biituminous mine 
 run coal a't Danville at Forty-nine cents 
 per tons of Two ThousElnd Pounds; 
 therefore, be it 
 
 RESOLVED, That the prices for pick 
 miin^d coal thi-oughout the state for 
 ■one year, beginning April 1, 1902, shall 
 be as follows : 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 
 Streajtor, Cardiff, Clarke City and 
 associated mines, including To- 
 luca thick vein 5Sc 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, 
 including 24 inches of brushing. 76c 
 
 'Wilming'tbn and assioclated mines. 
 Including Cardiff long wall and 
 BloomingtoD tWin vein, including 
 brushing 81c 
 
 Bloomington thick vein 71c 
 
 Pontiac, Unoluding 24 inches of 
 brushing 81c 
 
 Pontiac top vein 58c 
 
 Marseilles $1 09 
 
 <Rate at Marseilles to continue 
 until September 1, 1902, at which 
 time the condlitlons are to be in- 
 vestigated by President Russell 
 and Commissioner Justi, and 'if 
 conditions are changed, as now 
 contemplated an equitable ad- 
 justment shall be made.) 
 
 jMorris and Seneca (referred to a 
 committee composed of Coimmis- 
 sloner Justi and two operators 
 and President Russell and two 
 miners to fix mining prices, which 
 shall, become a part of this con- 
 tract; the same to be considered 
 before May 1, 1902.) 
 
 Clarke City lower seam, brushing 
 in coal 66c 
 
 SECOND DISTRICT. 
 X)anville, Westville, Grape Creek 
 and associated mines in Vermil- 
 ion county 49c 
 
 THIRD DISTRICT. 
 NSpringfleld and associated mines.. 49.7c 
 
 Uincoln and Niantilc 53c 
 
 Colfax 53c 
 
 FOURTH DISTRICT. 
 Mines on C. & A. south of Spring-, 
 field, to and including Carlin- 
 ville; Including Taylorville, Pana, 
 Litchfield, Hillsboro, Witt (Pais- 
 ley), Divernon and Pawnee 49c 
 
 lAssumption long wall, under pres- 
 ent regulations 65%c 
 
 Moweaqua room and pillar 53c 
 
 Mount Pulaski, room > and pillar.. 66c 
 Decatur, present conditions 64c 
 
 FIFTH DISTRICT. 
 
 den Carbon, Belleville and asso- 
 ciated mines, to and including 
 Pinckneyville, Willlsville and 
 Nashville ...' ', 49o 
 
 •Coal five feet and under 54c 
 
 SIXTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Duquoin, Odin, Sandoval, OentrajUa 
 
 and associated mlines 45c 
 
 Salem and Klnmundy 50c 
 
 SEVENTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Mount Vernon 50c 
 
 Jackson county *5o 
 
 (All coal five feet and under, 5c 
 extra per ton; this not to apply 
 to lower bench, nor rolls or 
 horsebacks). 
 Lower bench, Jackson county, for 
 shipping mines, miners to carry 
 
 14 Inches brushing 58c 
 
 Saline county 45c 
 
 Williamson county 42c 
 
 Gallatin coupty (price to be deter- 
 mined by Thomas Jeremiah and 
 Commiissi'oner JustS and become a 
 part of this contract). 
 
 EIGHTH DISTRICT. 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, thin 
 or lower veiii (third vein condi- 
 tions) 76c 
 
 Fulton and Peoria counties, No. 5 
 vein 56c 
 
 Astoria No. 5 vein (Fulton and 
 Peoria counties conditions) 56c 
 
 PeMn (price of 60c per ton con- 
 tinued under provision similar to 
 those in state agreement for year 
 ending April 1, 1902, viis. : Price 
 of 60c per ton with Fulton and 
 Peoria counties conditions to be 
 lin force for 90 days from April 
 1, 1902, during which time a rec- 
 ord is to be kept to determine ^ 
 cost of removing dirt, etc. Should 
 this rate be found to work a 
 hardship it shall be re-adjusited; 
 if it transpires that it is equit- 
 able it shall continue during the 
 Jife of tWis agreement. It is un- 
 derstood that the Pekin operators 
 and delegates will determine by 
 what method the re-adjustment, 
 shall be considered). 
 
 Fulton and Pearla counties, No. 6 
 vein (referred to, a committee 
 composed of Commissioner Justi 
 and two operators and President 
 Russell and two miners to fix a 
 mining price which shall beoome 
 a part of this contradt; the pres- 
 ent rate of 59c per ton to con- 
 tinue in force pending adjust- 
 ment by said committee. The 
 same to be considered before May 
 1, 1902). 
 
 Gilchrist, Wanlock, Cable, Sher- 
 rard and Silvis mines, 60c per 
 ton With last year's conditions. 
 In case of deficient work, where 
 miner and mine manager cannot 
 agree as to compensation, the 
 mine committee shall be called 
 in; and if they cannot agree the 
 dispute sihaU, be carried up under 
 the 13'th Clause of the present 
 scale. 
 
 Kewanee and Etherly 65c 
 
Afternoon Session, March 12. 
 
 333 
 
 Pottstffwn No. 1 seam, scale to be 
 the same as Gilchrist and Wan- 
 lock, except in the brushing of 
 the top, than shall be settled by 
 the sub-district. 
 
 NINTH DISTRICT. 
 Mount Olive, Staunton, Gillespie, 
 Clyde, Sorento and Coffeen and , 
 mines on the Vandaliia line as far 
 east as and including: Smithboro, 
 and on the B. & O. S. W. as far 
 
 east at Breese 49c 
 
 Coal five fe^elt and under 51c 
 
 1st. The Indianapolis convention 
 having adopted the minling and under- 
 ground day labor scale in effect April 1, 
 1900, as the scale for the year beginning 
 April 1, 1902, no changes or Conditions 
 shall be imposed in the Illinbis scale 
 for the ^ coming year that increase the 
 cost of production of coal in any dis- 
 trict in the state, except as may be pro- 
 vided. 
 
 2nd. No scale of wages shall be made 
 by the United Mine "Woriiers for mine 
 • manager, mine manager's assistant, top 
 foreman, company weighman, boss 
 drivers, night boss, head machinist, 
 head boilermaker, head carpenter, night 
 w^aJtchman, hoisting engineers. It being 
 unders^tood that "assistant" shall apply 
 to such as are authorized to act in that 
 capacity only. The authority to hire 
 and discharge shall be vested in the 
 mine manager, tap foireman and boss 
 driver. It lis further understood and 
 agreed that the night watchman shall 
 be exempt when employed in that ca- 
 pacity only. 
 
 3rd. Any 'operator paying the scale 
 rate of mining and day labor under this 
 agreement shall at all times be at lib- 
 erty to load any railroad cars what- 
 ever, regardless of their ownership, 
 with coal, and sell and deliver such coal 
 in any market and to any person, 
 firm or corporation that he may d^ 
 sire. 
 
 4th. The scale of prices for mining 
 per ton of 2,000 pounds run-of-mine 
 coal herein provided for, is" undersitood- 
 in every case to be for coal free from 
 slate, bone or other impurities, loaded 
 in ,cars at the face, weighed before 
 screening; and that the practice of 
 pushing coal by the miners shall be 
 prohibited. 
 
 5th. (a) Whether 'the ooal is shot 
 ajfter being under-cut or sheared by 
 piick or machiine, or shot without un- 
 der-cuttiting or shearing, the miners 
 must drill and blast the ooal in ac- 
 cordance with the state mining law of 
 Illinois, in order to protect the roof 
 and timbers in ithe interest of general 
 safety. If it can be shown that any 
 miner persistently violates the letter or 
 spirit of this clause, he shall be dis- 
 charged. 
 
 (b) The system of paying for ooai be- 
 fore screening was intended to obviate 
 the many coniten'tions incident to the 
 use of screens, and was riot intended to 
 encourage unworkmanlike methods of 
 mining and blasting ooal, or to de- 
 
 crease the proportion of screened lump, 
 and the operators are hereby guaran- 
 teed the he^arty support and ooi-Oipera- 
 tlon of the United Mine Workers of 
 America in disciplining any miner who 
 from ignorance or carelessness or other 
 cause fails to properly mine, shoot and 
 load his coal. 
 
 6th. In case slate, bone, clay, sul- 
 phur or other impurities are sent up ^ 
 with the ooal by 'the miner it shall be- 
 the duty of whomever the company 
 shall designate as inspector to report , , 
 the same, w'lth the estimated weight 
 thereof, and the miner or miners so 
 offending shall have such weight de- 
 ducted from the established weight of 
 the car, and for the first offense in 
 any given month shall be fined fifty 
 cents; for the second offense in the 
 same mtonth he or they shall alt the 
 Option of the operator be fined two 
 dollars or suspended for two working ■ . 
 days; and for the third or any subse- 
 quent offense in the same month, or in 
 malicious or aggravated cases for the 
 first or any subsequent offense, the op- 
 erator may indefinitely suspend or dis- 
 charge. 
 
 The cOiinpany weighman shall post in i i 
 a conspiclous place at the pit-head the 
 names of all miners dealt with here- 
 under. I I 
 
 The inspector designated by the' op- 
 erator shall be a membel; of the U. M. 
 W. or A., bu't in the discharge of the 
 duties herein specified shall not be sub- 
 ject to the jurisdiction of the local 
 unl'on or president or .pit committee, 
 and agalihst any miner or committee- 
 man seeking in any way to embarrass- ' ' 
 the inspector in or because of the dis- 
 charge of such duties the provisions 
 of the miners' state constitution shall 
 be invoked and in addition he shall at 
 the option of the operator be suspend- 
 ed for two working days. 
 
 In case it shall be alleged by either 
 'the local representatives of the miners 
 or by the operator that the inspector is 
 not properly performing his duties here- 
 under, it shall be sO' reported to the 
 miners' sub-district president, who shall 
 within forty-eight' hours after the re- 
 ceipt of notifioatlton take it up with 
 the superintendent of the company for 
 adjudication; and if it shall be found 
 that the inspector is not faithfully per- , 
 forming such duties he shall be dis- 
 charged or transferred to other dutiesj 
 as the operator may eleot. 
 
 The proceeds of all fines hereunder 
 shall ^be paid to the miners' sub-district 
 secretary-treasurer, and under no cir- 
 cumstances shall any such fine be r;e- 
 mStted or refunded. 
 
 Tth. The miners of the s'tate of Illi- 
 nois are to be paid twice a rponth, the- 
 dates of pay to be determined locally,, 
 but in no event shall more than lone- 
 half month's pay be retained by the 
 operaJtor. When any pumber of men: 
 at any mine so demand, statements 
 will be issued to all employes not less 
 than twenty-four hours prior to pay 
 day. No commissions will be charged 
 
334 
 
 Afternoon Session, March 12. 
 
 for mioney advanced between pay days, 
 but any advances between pay days 
 shall be at the aption of the operaitot. 
 
 8th. The price fpr powder per keg 
 shall be $1.75 — the miners agree to pur- 
 chase their powder from the operators, 
 provided it is furnished of standard 
 grade and quality; that to be deter- 
 mined by 'the opei;ators arid expert 
 miners Jointly where there is a differ- 
 ence. 
 
 9th. The price for blacksmithing for 
 pick miniing shaJl be six-tenths of a 
 cent per ton for room and pillar work 
 and twelve and one-half cents per 
 pay per man, or twenty-flve cents per 
 m'onth for long wall for pick and drill 
 sharpening. 
 
 10th. rt is understood that there is 
 ■no agreement as to the prtice of oil. 
 
 11th. The inside day wage scaie au- 
 thorized by ' the present agreement, 
 i. e., the Columbus scale of 1898, plus 
 an advance of twenty per cent, shall 
 be 'the scale under this agreemenit; but 
 in no case shall less than $2.10 be 
 paid for drivers. 
 
 12th. The above scale of miniing 
 prices is based upon an eight-hour 
 work day, and it is definitely under- 
 stood that this shall mean eight hours' 
 work at the face, exclusive of noon- 
 t'ime, six days a week, or forty-eight 
 hours in the week, provided the opera- 
 tor desires the mine to work, and no 
 local ruling shall in any way affect 
 this agreement or impose conditions 
 affecting the same. 
 
 Any class of day labor may be paid 
 at the option of the ^operator for the 
 number of hours and fractions thereof 
 adtually worked, at an hour rate based 
 on one-eigh'th of the scale raJte per day. 
 Provided, however, that when the men 
 go into the mine in the morning they 
 shall be entitled to two hours' pay 
 whether the mine hoists ooaJ (two hours 
 or not, except i-n 'the event that they 
 voluntarily leave their work during this 
 time wiithout the conserit of the opera- 
 tor, they shall forfeit such two hours' 
 pay. Provided, further, that overtime 
 by day laborers .when necessary to sup- 
 ply railroad chutes with coal by night 
 or Sunday, w^here no regular men 
 therefor are exclusively employed or 
 when necessary in order not to impede 
 the operation of the mine the day fol- 
 lowing, and for work which cannot be 
 performed or completed by the regular 
 shlft during regulax hours wlthiout 
 impeding the operation of the mine, 
 may be performed' and paid for at the 
 same raite per hour. 
 
 13th. (a) The duties of the pit com- 
 mittee shall be confined to the adjust- 
 ment of disputes between the pit boss 
 and any of the members of the United 
 Mine Workers of Ame'rica wiorking in 
 and around 'the mine, for whom a scale 
 is made, arising out of this agreenxent 
 or any sub-district agreemenlt made in 
 connection herewith, where the pit boss 
 and paid miner or mine laborers have 
 failed to agree. 
 
 (b) In case of any local tnouble aris- 
 
 ing at any shaft through such failure 
 to agree beltween the pit boss and any 
 miner or mine laborer, the pit commit- 
 tee and the miners' local president and 
 the pit boss are empowered to adjust 
 it; and in the case of their disagreement 
 it shall be referred to the superintend- 
 ent of the company and the president- 
 of the miners' local executive board, 
 whefe such exists, and shall they fall 
 to adjust it — and in all other cases — it 
 shall be referred to the superintendent 
 of the company and the miners' presi- 
 dent of the sub-diStrict; and should 
 they fail to adjust lit, it shall be re- 
 ferred in writing to the ofHclals of the 
 company concerned and the state offi- 
 cials of XJ. M. W. of A. for adjustment; 
 and in al'l such cases the miners and 
 mine laborers and parties involved 
 must continue at work pending an in- 
 vestigation and adjustment until a final 
 deci^on is reached in the manner above 
 set forth. 
 
 (c) If any day men refuse to continue 
 at work because of a grievance which 
 has or has not been taken up for ad- 
 justment in the manner provided here- 
 in, and such action shall seem likely 
 to impede the operaJtion" of the mine, 
 the pit committee shall immediately 
 furnish a man or men to take such va- 
 canlt place or places at the scale rate, 
 in order that the mine may conltlnue 
 ajt work; and it shall be the duty of 
 any member or members of the United 
 Mine Workers who' may be called upon 
 by the pit boss or pit oommittee to 
 immediately take the place or places 
 assigned to him or them in pursuance 
 hereof. 
 
 (d) The pit commiittee in the dis- 
 charge of its duties shall under no cir- 
 cumstances gt) around the mine for any 
 cause whatever unless called upon by 
 the pit boss or by a miner or oompany 
 man who may have a grttevance that he 
 canndt settle with the boss and as Its 
 duties are confined to the adjusitment 
 of any such grievances, it is understood 
 that its members shall not draw any 
 compensation except while actively en- 
 gaged in the discharge of said duties. 
 Any pit committeeman who shall at- 
 tempt to execute any local rule or pro- 
 ceeding in conflict wiith any provision of 
 this contract or any oither made In pur- 
 suance hereof, shall be forthwith de- 
 ixised as committeeman. The foregoing 
 shall not be construed to prohibit the 
 pit committee from looking after the 
 matter of membership dues and initia- 
 tions in any proper manner. 
 
 (e) Members of the pit committee 
 employed as day men shall not leave 
 their places of duty during working 
 hours, except by permission of the op- 
 erator, or in cases involving the stop- 
 page of the mine. 
 
 (f) The right to hire and discharge, 
 the management of the mine and the 
 direction of the working .force, are vest- 
 ed exclusively in the operator, and the 
 U. M. W. of A. shall not abridge this 
 right. It is not the intention of this 
 provision to encourage the discharge of 
 
AFTERNOON Session, March 12. 
 
 335 
 
 employes or the refusal of employmenit 
 to applicants because of personal 
 prejudice or activity In matters affect- 
 ing the U. M. W. of A. If any em- 
 ploye shall be suspended or discharged 
 by the company and St is claimed that 
 an injus'tice has been done him, an in- 
 vestigaition to be conducted by the 
 parties and in the manner set forth 
 in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this sec- 
 tion shall be taken up promptly, and 
 if It is proven that an injustice has 
 been done, the operator shall reinstate 
 said employe, and pay him full compen- 
 sation Sot the time he has been sus- 
 pended and out of employment; pro- 
 vided, if mo decision shall be rendered 
 within five days, the case shall be con- 
 sidered closed In so far as compensation 
 is concerned. 
 
 14th. The wages how bettng paid out- 
 side day labor at the various mines in 
 this state shall constitute the wage 
 scale for that class of labor during 
 the life of this agreement; provided, 
 that no top man shall receive less than 
 $1.80 per day. 
 
 15th. In the event of an instantan- 
 eous death by accident In the mine, the 
 miners and underground employes shall 
 have the pr'lvilege of discontinuing 
 work for the remainder of that day, 
 but work at the option of the operator 
 sha:ll be resumed the day following, 
 and contlinue thereafter. In base the 
 operator elects toi operate the mine on 
 the day of the funeral of the deceas- 
 ed -as above, or where death has re- 
 sulted from an accident in the mine, 
 individual mliners and underground 
 employes may alt their option ab- 
 sent themselves from work for the 
 purpose of attending such funeral 
 but not otherwise. And in the event 
 that the operator shall elect to operate 
 the mine on the day of such funeral, 
 then from the proceeds of such day's 
 operation each member of the U. M. 
 W. of A. employed at the mine at which 
 the deceased member was employed 
 shall contribute fifty cents and the op- 
 erator $25.00 for the benefit of the fam- 
 ily of the deceased or his legal repre- 
 sentatives, to be collected through the 
 office of the company. Except in case 
 of fatal accidents, as above, the mine 
 shall in no case be thrown idle because 
 of any death or funeral; but in the 
 case of the death of any employe of the 
 company or member of hi^ family; any 
 individual miner may, at his option, 
 absent himself from work for the sake 
 of attending such funeral, but not oth- 
 -erwlse. , 
 
 16th. (a) The scale of prices herein 
 provided shall include, in ordinary con- 
 ditions, the work required to load ooal 
 and properly timber the working places 
 in the nyne, and the operator shall be 
 required to furnish the necessary props 
 and timber in rooms or working face. 
 And in long wall mines it shall Include 
 the proper mining of the' coal and the 
 brushing and care of the working 
 places and roadway according to the 
 present method and rules relating 
 
 thereto, which shall continue unchang- 
 ed. 
 
 (b) If any miner shall fail to proper- 
 ly timber, shoot and care for his work- 
 ing place, and such failure has entail- 
 ed falls of slate, rock and the like, the 
 miner whose fault has occasioned such 
 damage shall repair the same without 
 compensation, and if such miner falls 
 to repair such damage he may be dis- 
 charged. 
 
 Any dispute- tha,t may arise as to the 
 responsibility under this clause shall 
 be adjusted by the pit committee and 
 mine foreman, and in case of their 
 failure to agree shall be taken up for 
 settlement, under the 13th section at 
 this agreement. 
 
 In cases where the mine manager di- 
 rects the placing of cross-bars to per- 
 manently secure the roadway, then, 
 and In such cases only, the miner shall 
 be paid at the current price for each 
 cross-bar when properly set. 
 
 The above does not contemplate any 
 change from the ordinary method of 
 timbering by the miner for his, own 
 safety. 
 
 17th. The operators will recognize 
 pit committee in the discharge of its 
 duties as herein specified, but not oth- 
 erwise, and agree to check off union 
 dues, assessments and fines from the 
 miners and mine laborers, when desir- 
 ed, on proper Individual or collective' 
 continuous order, and furnish to the 
 miners' representative a statement 
 showing separately the total amount 
 of dues, assessments and fines collect- 
 ed. When such collections are made 
 card days shall be abolished. In case 
 any fine is Imposed the propriety of 
 which Is questioned, the amount of such 
 fine shall be withheld by the operator 
 until the question has been taken lip 
 for adjustment and a decision has 
 been reached. 
 
 18th. The operators shall have the 
 right in cases of emergency work, or 
 ordinary repairs to the plant, to em^ 
 ploy in connection therewith such men 
 as In their judgment are best acquaint- 
 ed with and suited to the work to be 
 performed, except where men are per- 
 manently employed for such work. 
 Blacksmiths and other skilled labor 
 shall make any necessary repairs, to 
 machinery and boilers. 
 
 19th. The erection of head frames, 
 buildings, scales, machinery railroad 
 switches, etc., necessary for the com- 
 pletion of a plant to hoist coal, all be- 
 ing in the nature of construction work, 
 are to be excluded from the jurisdiction 
 of the United Mine Workers of Amer- 
 ica. Extensive repairs to or rebuilding 
 the same class of work shall also be in- 
 ctaded in the same exception. The em- 
 .ployes thereon to be excluded as above 
 when employed on such work only. 
 
 20tb. When any employe absents 
 himself from his work for a period of 
 two days, unless through sickness or 
 by first having notified the mine man- 
 ager and obtained his consent, he may 
 be discharged. 
 
336 
 
 AifTERNooN Session, March 12. 
 
 21st. (a) Except at the basing 
 point, Danville, the differential for ma- 
 bhine mining throughout the state of 
 Illinois shall be seven cents .per ton 
 less than the pick mining rate. It be- 
 ing understood and agreed that the 
 machine mining rate shall include the 
 snubbing of coal either by powder or 
 wedge and sledge^ as . conditions may 
 warrant where chain machine is used; 
 but it is understood that this condi- 
 tion sh^ll not apply where two men 
 have and work in one place only in 
 the same shift, except at the option of 
 the miner, and it shaJl also be optional 
 with the miner which system of snub- 
 bing shall be followed. The division of 
 the machine mining rate shall be fixed 
 in joint, sub-district meetings. , 
 
 (b) The established rates on shear- 
 ing machines and air or electric drills 
 as now existing, shall remain unchang- 
 ed during the ensuing year. 
 
 22n(l. Any underground employe not 
 on hand so as to go down to his work 
 before the hour for commencing work 
 shall not be entitled to go below except 
 at the convenience of the company. 
 When an employe is sick or Injured, he 
 shall be given a cage at once. When a 
 cage load of men comes to the bottom 
 of the shaft,, who have been prevented 
 from working by reaSon of falls or oth- 
 er things over which they have no 
 control, they shall be given a cage at 
 once. For the accommodation of in- 
 dividual employes less than a cage load 
 who have been prevented from working 
 ' as above, a cage shall be run mid- 
 forenoon, noon and mid-afternoon of 
 each working day; provided, however, 
 that the foregoing shall not be permit- 
 ted to enable men to leave their work 
 for other than the reasons stated above. 
 
 23rd. This contract is in no case to 
 be set aside because of any rules of the 
 TJ. M. W. of A. now in force or which 
 may hereafter be adopted; nor is this 
 contract to be set aside by reason any 
 provision in their national, state or 
 local constitutions. 
 
 24th. All classes of day labor are to 
 work full eight hours, and the going to 
 and coming from the respective work- 
 ing places is to be done on the day 
 hand's own time. All company men 
 shall perform whatever day labor the 
 foreman may direct. An eight-hour 
 day means eight hour.s' work in the 
 mines at the usual working places, ex- 
 clusive of noon time, for all classes of 
 inside day labor. This shall be exclu- 
 sive of the time required in reaching 
 such working places in the morning 
 and departing from same at night. 
 
 Drivers shall take their mules to and 
 from the stables, and the time requir- 
 ed in so doing shall not include any 
 part of the day's labor; their time be- 
 ginning when they reach the change 
 at which they receive empty cars^ — 
 that is, the parting-drivers at the shaft 
 bottom, and the Inside-drivers at the 
 parting — and ending at the same places 
 but in no case shall a driver's time be 
 docked while he is waiting for such 
 
 cars at the points named. The Inside 
 drivers at their option, may either walk 
 to and from their parting or take with 
 them without compensation either 
 loaded or empty cars, to enable them 
 to ride. This provision, however, shall 
 not prevent the inside drivers from 
 bringing to and taking from the bottom 
 regular trips, if so directed by the op- 
 erator, provided such work is done 
 within the eight hours. 
 
 The methods at present existing cov- 
 ering the harnessing, unharnessing, 
 feeding and caring for the mules, shall 
 be continued throughout the scale year 
 beginning April 1, 1902; but in cases 
 where any grievances exist in respect 
 to same they shall be referred to the 
 sub-district meetings for adjustment. 
 
 When the stables at which the mules 
 are kept are located on the surface and 
 the mules are taken in and out of the 
 mines daily by the drivers, the ques- 
 tion of additional compensation there- 
 for, if any, is to be left to the sub-dis- 
 tricts affected for adjustment, at their 
 ■joint sub-district meetings. 
 
 25th. Mission field scale is referred 
 to Danville sub-district for adjustment. 
 
 26th. The company shall keep the 
 mine in as dry condition as practicable 
 by keeping the water off the roads and 
 out of the working places. 
 
 27tli. The operator shall keep sufli- 
 cient bluankets, oi}, bandages, etc., and 
 provide suitable ambulance or convey- 
 ances at all mines to properly convey 
 injured persons to their homes after an 
 accident. 
 
 28th. The operator shall see that an 
 equal turn is offered each miner, and 
 that he be given a fair chance to ob- 
 tain the same. The check weighman 
 shall keep a turn bulletin for the turn 
 keeper's guidance. The drivers shall 
 be subject to whomever the mine man- 
 ager shall designate as turn-keeper, in 
 pursuance hereof. 
 
 In mines where there is both hand 
 and machine mining, an equal turn 
 shall mean approximately the ' same 
 turn to each man in the machine piart 
 of the mine, and approximately the 
 same turn to each man doing hand 
 work; but not necessarily the same to 
 each hand miner as to each man work- 
 ing with the machines. 
 
 29th. There shall be no demands 
 made locally that are not specifically 
 set forth in this agreement, except as 
 agreed to in joint sub-district meetings 
 held prior to May 1, 1902. Where no 
 sub-districts exist local grievances 
 shall be referred to the United Mine 
 AA^'orkers' State Executive :^oard and 
 the mine owners interested. 
 THE UNITED MINE WORKERS OF 
 
 AMERICA, DISTRICT NO. 12. 
 W. R. RUSSELL, President. 
 T. J. REYNOLDS, Vice President. 
 AV. D. RYAN, Sec'y-Treas. 
 THE ILLINOIS COAL OPERATORS' 
 
 ASSOCIATION. 
 O. L. GARRISON, President. 
 E. T. BENT, Secretary. 
 
 Peoria, March 1?, 1902. 
 
Afternoon Session, March 12. 
 
 337 
 
 ATTENDANCE. 
 
 MEMBERS OF THE ILIilNOIS COAL 
 OPERATORS' ASSOCIATION. 
 
 Name. P. O. Address. 
 
 Acme Coal Co., Streator, 111. 
 Alden Coal Co., Wanlock, 111. 
 Assumption C. & M. Co., Assumption, 
 
 111. 
 Astoria Coal & Mining Co., Astoria, III. 
 Athens Mining Co., Athens, 111. 
 Bailey Bros., Sunfield, 111. 
 Barclay C. & M. Co., Springfield. 111. 
 Beck-Walker Goal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Belleville & O'Fallon C. Co., Belleville, 
 
 111. 
 Big Pour Wil. Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Big Muddy C. & I. Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Black Diamond Coal Co., Springfield, 
 
 111. 
 Bohlander Bros.. Pekin, 111. 
 Braceville Coal Co., Braceville, 111. 
 Breese Coal & Mining Co., Breese, 111. 
 Brookside Coal Mining Co., Danville, 
 
 111. 
 Cahill, James, Estate of, Peru, 111. 
 Canton Union Ooal Co., Canton, 111. 
 Cantrall Co-Op. C. Co., Cantrall, 111. 
 Cardiff Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Carlinville Ooal Co., Carlinville, 111. 
 Carterville, Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Catlin Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Centralia M. & M. Co., Centralia, 111. 
 Chicago & Big Muddy C. & C. Co., 
 
 Chicago, HI. 
 Chicago & Cartervllle C. Co., Herrin, 
 
 III. 
 Chicagio-Herrln Coal Co., Herrin, 111. 
 Chicago-Virden Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Chicago, Wil. & Ver. C. Co., Chicago, 
 
 111. 
 Christian Co. C. Co., Taylorville, 111. 
 Citizens Coal Mining Co., Springfield, 
 
 111. 
 Citizens Coal Mining Co., Lincoln, 111. 
 Clifton Coal Co., Harrisburg, 111. 
 Coal Valley Mining Co., Rock Island, 
 
 111. 
 Colfax Coal & M. Co., Colfax, 111. 
 Consolidated Ooal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Corcoran Coal Co.. Morris, 111. 
 Crab Orchard Coal Co., Marion, 111. 
 Crown Coal & Tow Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Davenport Coal Co., Harrisburg, 111. 
 Decatur Coal Co., Decatur, 111. 
 NiarttiCj 111. 
 Devlin Coal Co., Toluca, 111. 
 Dick Coal Co., (Robt), Carterville, 111. 
 Donk Bros. Coal & Coke Co., St. Louis, 
 
 Mo. 
 East Colfax Coal Co., Colfax, 111. 
 Economy Coal & M. Co., Danville, 111. 
 Empire Coal Co., Gilchrist, 111. 
 Etherly Ooal Co., Galesburg, 111. 
 Parmington Ooal Co., Parmington, 111. 
 Foley, W. E., Mapleton, 111. 
 Gardner- Wilmington C. Co., Chicago, 
 
 111. 
 Gartside Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Gerinan Coal Co., Mapleton, 111. 
 Girard Coal do., Girard, 111. 
 Glendale Coal & M. Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Grant, L. & Son, Pekin, 111. 
 Green Ridge Mining Co., Green R^dge, 
 
 111. 
 
 Greenview Coal & Mining Co., Green- 
 view, 111. 
 
 Greenwood-Davis Ooal Co., Duquoin, 
 111. 
 
 Harrisburg Coal Co., Harrisburg, 111. 
 
 Henry, Ph., Kewanee, 111. 
 
 Himrod Coal Co., Danville, 111. 
 
 Hippard Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 Howarth & Taylor Bros., Edwards, 111. 
 
 Illinois Third Vein 0. Co., Chicago, 111. 
 
 Jones & Adams Co., Chicago, 111. 
 
 Junction Mining Co., Springield Jet, 
 111. 
 
 Jupiter Coal & Coke Co., Duqutoln, 111. 
 
 Kellyville Ooal Co., Danville, 111. 
 
 Kerens-Donnewald C. Co., St. Louis, 
 Mo. 
 
 Kewanee M. & Mnf. Co., Kewanee, 111. 
 
 Kewanee Coal & Mining Co., Kewanee, 
 111. 
 
 King & Pfanz, Pekin, 111. 
 
 Kinmundy Coal Co., Kinmundy, 111. 
 
 Kramm & Bro., C. B., Peoria, 111. 
 
 LaSalle County Carbon C. Co., Chi- 
 cago, 111. 
 
 Lincoln Coal Co., Lincoln, 111. 
 
 Litchfield M. & P. Co., Litchfield, 111. 
 
 Little Muddy Ooal Co., Sparta, 111. 
 
 Lumaghi Ooal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 Madison Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 Mjinufacturers' Coal Co., Marseilles, 111. 
 
 Maplewood Ooal Co., Peoria, 111. 
 
 Marquette Third Vein 0. Co., Daven- 
 port, la. 
 
 McLean County Coal Co., Bloomington, 
 111. 
 
 Missouri & Illinois Coal Co., St. Louis, 
 Mo. 
 
 Monarch Ooal Co., Parmington, 111. 
 
 Monmouth Coal Co., Canton, 111. 
 
 Montgomery Coal Co., Paisley, 111. 
 
 Moweaqu^ Ooal M. & M. Co., Mowea- 
 qua, 111. 
 
 Muddy Valley M. & M. Co., Cairo, 111. 
 
 Muren Coal & Ice Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 
 Murphy-Keenan & Co. C. Go., Braid- 
 wood. 111. 
 
 Murray, Hugh, Nashville, 111. 
 
 New Ohio Wash. C. Co., Carterville, 111. 
 
 Newsam Bros., Peoria, 111. 
 
 New Virginia Coal Co., Lake Creek, 111. 
 
 Nilwood Carbon Coal Co., Nilwood, 111. 
 
 Norris Coal Co., Norris, 111. 
 
 Oak Hill Coal Co., Belleville, 111. 
 
 O'Connell (John) Coal Co., Danville, 111. 
 
 Odin Coal Oo., Odin, 111. 
 
 O'Fallon Ooal & Mining Co., St. Louis, 
 Mo. 
 
 Oglgsby Coal Co., Oglesby, 111. 
 
 Pana Coal Co., Pana, 111. 
 
 Penwell Ooal Mining Co., Pana, 111. 
 
 Perry County Ooal Co., Duquoin, 111. 
 
 Phoenix Ooal Co., Peoria, 111. 
 
 Plttenger & Davis M. & M. Oo., Cen- 
 tralia, 111. 
 
 Pontiac Ooal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 
 Reents, S. & Son, Kramm, 111. 
 
 Republic Iron & Steel Co., Springfield, 
 111. 
 
 Riverton Ooal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 
 Roanoke Ooal & Mining Co., Roanoke, 
 111. 
 
 Royster & Ziegler, Peoria, 111. 
 
 Salem Ooal Co., Salem, 111. 
 
 Sandoval Ooal Oo., Sandoval, 111. 
 
 Sangamon Ooal Co., Springfield, in. 
 
338 
 
 Afternoon- Session, March 12. 
 
 Shell Bros., Peoria, 111. 
 Skellett Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Sorento Prospecting & M. Co., Sorenttov 
 
 111. 
 So. 111. Coal M. & W. Co., Chicago, 111. 
 South Mountain Coal Co., Petersburg-, 
 
 111. 
 Spaulding Coal Co., Springfield, III. 
 Springside Coal Mining Co., Pana, 111. 
 Springfield Co-Op. C. Co., Springfield, 
 
 111. 
 Spring Valley Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Standard Coal Co., East Peoria, 111. 
 Standard Coal Co., Seneca, 111. 
 Star Coal Co., Streator, 111. 
 Starnes Coal Mining Co., Springfield, 
 
 111. 
 Staunton Coal Co., Staunton, 111. 
 Sunday Creek Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Sunnysdde Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Tallula Coal Co., Tallula, 111. 
 Taylor, Joseph, O'Fallon, 111. 
 Taylorville Coal Co., Taylorville, 111. 
 Tirre Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Trenton Coal Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Trutter Coal Co., Springfield, 111. 
 Victor Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Virden Coal Co., Springfield, 111. 
 "W^abash Coal Co., Quincy, 111. 
 Wantling & .Son, Isaac, Peoria, 111. 
 Wenona Coal Co., Wenona, 111. 
 West End Coal Co., Springfield, 111. 
 Westville Coal Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Whitebreast Fuel Co. of Ills., Chicago, 
 
 111. 
 White Walnut C. Co., Pinckneyvllle, 111. 
 Williamson County Coal Co., St. Louis, 
 
 Mo. 
 Williamsville Coal Co., Selbytown, 111. 
 Willis Coal & M. Co., St. Louis, Mo. 
 Wilmington C. M. & Mfg, Co., Chicago, 
 
 111. 
 Wilmingon Star M. Co., Chicago, 111. 
 Wolschlag Co-Op. Coal Co., Peoria, 111. 
 Woodside Coal Co., Springfield, 111. 
 Silvis Mining Cto., Carbon Cliff, 111. 
 Lincoln Park Coal Co., Springfield, 111. 
 
 DELEGATES. 
 
 REPRESENTING THE U. M. W. OP 
 A., DISTRICT NO. 12. 
 
 JOHN MITCHELL, National President. 
 W. R. RUSSELL, President. 
 T. J. REYNOLDS, Vice President. 
 W. D. RYAN, Secretary- Treasurer. 
 
 STATE EXECUTIVE BOARD. 
 
 W. E. Smdlth, Coal City, 111. 
 James Beiattie, Spring Valley, 111. 
 John J. Wilson, East Peoria, 111. 
 John B. Wilson, Westville, 111. 
 Bdv/ard Cahill, Virden, 111. 
 Peter McOall, Glen Carbon, 111. 
 Thomas Jeremiah, Duquoin, 111. 
 
 Assumption— Ed. Bradley. 
 Assunaption — Mike Osolo. 
 Athens — Clarence Sprouse. 
 Athens — Eugene Zellers. 
 Astoria— Edward Hanon. 
 Auburn— Peter Egan. 
 Alma— James Highly. 
 
 Braceville — J/ohn J. Jones. 
 Birkner — F. W. KnoUman. 
 Bartonville — Elmer Morse. 
 Breese — Wm. Mahlandt. 
 Breese — Morgan J. Reese. 
 Belleville — John Green. 
 Belleville — Evan Owens. 
 Belleville — A. Severit. 
 Belleville — Arthur Powell. 
 Belleville, (or Lynn's Stat.)— David Al- 
 len. 
 Belleville— Nick Shilling. 
 Bryant — Henry Van Slaack. 
 Braidwood — John Grace. 
 Braid wood — Wm. Monoghan. 
 Barclay — Jobe Hill. 
 Bloomington — Alfred Klang. 
 Bloomington- — Otto Helman. 
 Bloomington — Frank Houser. 
 Coal City — David Dagon. 
 Coal City— Frank Liddell. 
 Coal City — John Dagon. 
 Centralia — W. D. Richardson. 
 Centralia — J. M. Zimmerman. 
 Cuba — Robert Gilmore. 
 Colfax— J. White. 
 Clarke City— C. D. Rollandelli. 
 Clarke City— Mark Knott. 
 Cutler — Thos. Stevenson. 
 Colchester — John Hunter, Jr. 
 Cantrall — Thosi. Burke. 
 Central City — John H. Jones. 
 Clear Lake— Frank O'Neaii. 
 Coffeen— Wm. Heftl. 
 Chatham — Geo. Hillier. 
 Carlinville — Al Pouscher. 
 CoUinsville — John C. Schuck. 
 Collinsville — Jos. Wilson. 
 CoUinsville — Louis Dieu. 
 Carterville — John D. Phillips. 
 Cable — Wm. Murray. 
 Crab Orchard — Wm. A. Bunn. 
 Coal Valley — Dougles Gregg. 
 Cardiff — Wm. J. Rogers. 
 Catlin — Jas. Jones. 
 Catlin — Thos. Cooper. \ 
 Carbon Hill — Peter Cavaletto. 
 Clyde— C. L. Mercer. 
 Dunfermline — D. J. Nichols. 
 Dunfermline — C. W. Carson. 
 Decatur — Thomas Day. 
 Dubois — Chas. Q. Corgan. 
 Divernon — Thomas Gardner. 
 Dutch Hill— Fred Albers. 
 Depue — Charles Hulsens. 
 Dawson— Wm. Hood. 
 Donkville— T. J. McDonald. 
 Duquoin — ^W. T. Morirs. 
 Duquioin — R. J. Wheatley. 
 D.inville — Geo. Barton. 
 Danville — Tom Kenner. 
 Danville — Fred Drews. 
 Diamond — ^Wm. Osborne. 
 Diamond — John Tracey. 
 Edwardsville — D. Collins. 
 Edwards — Samuel Edwards. 
 Elkville— W. C. Dowell. 
 Elkville— E. Spillers. 
 Etherley — J. Rioblnson. 
 E. Peortta — Thos. Maloney. 
 B. Peoria — Geto. Walmsley. 
 Fainpount — Nelson Chrlsterson. 
 
AFTBKNOON SESSION, MARCH 12. 
 
 339 
 
 Farmington— Wm. Spinney. 
 
 Fred'onia— Albert Shanklln. 
 
 Freeburg— Geo. Hills. 
 
 Glen Carbon— H. L. Grodteka. 
 
 Glen Carbon — Albert Neutzling. 
 
 Grape Creek — Sylveeter Palmer. 
 
 Grape Creek — James Cottrell. 
 
 Greenvlew — James Brady. 
 
 Green Ridge— B. A. Seaton. 
 
 Gillespie — Henry Seibert. 
 
 Germantown — J. H. Meier. 
 
 Herrin— W. J. McLean. 
 
 Herrin— Fred MKchell. 
 
 Herrin— John R. Moak. 
 
 Herr<in — John Henderson. 
 
 Herrin — Pat Gilloly. 
 
 Herrin — R. P. Hammond. 
 
 Herrin — Groce LawrSnoe. 
 
 Hanna City— W. H. Thrush. 
 
 HlllsbOTO — ^Alf. Furry. 
 
 Hilliary- J. M. Stine. 
 
 Harrlsburg — H. M. Evans. 
 
 Johnston City — Ben Pulllam. 
 
 Kramm — Geo. J. Patton. 
 
 Kinmundy — John Harper. 
 
 Kingston Mines — Milton H. Smith. 
 
 Kewanee — John Felloiws. 
 
 Lincoln — Wm. Downey. 
 
 Lincoln — John O'Neiil. 
 
 LaSalle — John Maddison. 
 
 LaSalle — Wm. Thompson. 
 
 Loding — Edward Stoehr. 
 
 Litchfield — G«o. H. Harland. 
 
 Ladd — Frank Iseatt. 
 
 Ladd — John Ricei. 
 
 Lauder — Chas. Payne. 
 
 Lebanon — G. W. Boyce. 
 
 Ledford— J. W. Ledford. 
 
 Lenzburg — Wm. Church. 
 
 Marian — John Clarida. 
 
 Marion — G. L. Brack. 
 
 Marion — Jas. Walker. 
 
 Mapleton — G. L. Weekly. 
 
 Marquette — Louis Bradi. 
 
 Marquette — Anton Jentz. 
 
 Marquette — John Gillon. 
 
 Marquette — Amel Bullard. 
 
 Mt. Olive — Henry Jacksion. 
 
 Mt. Olive — Theodore Schmidthousen. 
 
 Himrod— R. H. Kelley. 
 
 Mlddlegrove — Wm. Wilson. 
 
 Mariissa — W^m. Xtoak. 
 
 Morris — Robert Condom. 
 
 Moweaqua — David Cameron. 
 
 Mascoutah — Henry Herpin. 
 
 Mt. Vernon — John Follis. 
 
 Murphysboro — David Huggins. 
 
 Murphysboro — P. H. Strawhun. 
 
 Murphysboro — ^Alex. Robertson, jr. 
 
 Murphysboro — Allen Stivers. 
 
 Murphysboro^ — W. W. Gurley. 
 
 Murphysboro — J. C. Clem. 
 
 Norris — Thos. F. Dickinson. 
 
 New Baden — Gus Fritz. 
 
 New Baden — Pat Higgins. 
 
 New Athens — George McBrien. 
 
 Niantic — James Stinnett. 
 
 Odin — Peter A. Brod. 
 
 Orchard Mines — F. Spudlig. 
 
 O'Fallon — W. D. Davidson. 
 
 Oglesby — Duncan McDonald. 
 
 Oglesby — Chas. Bennett. 
 
 Pana— H. H. Sorrell. 
 
 Pana— Wm. Goforth. 
 
 Pana — Nicholas Walraven. 
 Pana — Bernard Murphy. 
 Pana— Frank Davis. 
 Pana— Thos. Duddy. 
 Pawnee — H. D. Friel. 
 Pinckneyville — Hosea A. Taylor. 
 Peru— Peter Wirsching. 
 Peru— Eug. Piller. 
 Peru— John Sheehan. 
 Peru — H. C. Perry. 
 Peoria— N. Thioma. 
 Plank Road — Cor. Saurs. ' 
 Percy— H. C. Short. 
 Pottsitown — Edw. Mareston. 
 Pontiac — Jas. Champley. 
 Pekin — Wm. Rundle. 
 Peitersburg— Chas. Dong. 
 Roanoke — ^Jules Prevost. 
 Rutland— J. W. Malonev. 
 Raymond— T. F. Henry. 
 Riverton — Chas. Foster. 
 Riverton — W. C. Pearsons. 
 Riverton — Peter Dowdel. 
 Relachler — N. B. Teasdale. 
 Springfield— John Tuney. 
 Springfield- J. F. Morris. 
 Springfield— John Welsh. 
 Springfield- Alb. McKinney. 
 Springfield— Thomas Hiscock. 
 Springfield— Daniel Clark. 
 Springfield— John Kane. 
 Springfield— Fred Denton. 
 Springfield— Harry Hayes. 
 Springfield — Robt. W. Burns. 
 Springfield- Pat J. GaflEigan. 
 Springfield— J. W. Dunham. 
 Spring Valley— Thomas RadclifC. 
 Spring Valley— J. M. Dixon. 
 Spring Valley— Peter Clinton. 
 Spring Valley— Peter Murphy. 
 Spring Valley— John McPherson. 
 Spring Valley— Edw. Heales. 
 Spring Valley— Daniel McNally. 
 Spring Valley— Daniel McDonald. 
 Spring Valley— P. J. Farmer. 
 Spring Valley— Ed. Flood. 
 Spring Valley — Wm. McGovern. 
 Spring Valley— Wm. Liddell. 
 Spring Valley — John Reynolds. 
 Spring Valley — James McGraw. 
 Spring Valley — James Dewey. 
 Spring Valley— Wm. Rierton. 
 Spring Valley — Robert Milburn. 
 Spring Valley — Jos. Corner. 
 Streator— A. D. Barta. 
 Streator — Matt Charlton. 
 Streator — Jas. Monahan. 
 Streator — James Cnossen. 
 Streator— John Padgett. 
 Streator — Benjamin King. 
 Sparland — J. H. Walker. 
 Sherrard — E. Essex. 
 Sherrard — Geo. Armstrong. 
 Staunton — John Deppe. 
 Staunton — Walter Purslow. 
 South Wilmington — Wm. Watklns. 
 South Wilmington — David Richards. 
 Sandoval— Wm. Campbell. 
 Spillertown — Henry Gahn. 
 S. Danville — ^Wm. Hayes. 
 Sato — Henry Williams. 
 Sorento — John B. Mills. 
 Seatonville — John Lawrence. 
 Spauldlng — Thomas J. Farnsworth. 
 
IC 
 
 AFTBRNOON Session, March 12. 
 
 t. David — Jacob Palding. 
 lalem — Joseph Pope, 
 ^oluca — John Leonard, 
 'oluca — Lawrence Falletto. 
 'hayer^-Wm. B. Mitchell, 
 "hayer — Wm. Bryan, 
 'allula — Jas. O. Connors. 
 ?roy — Thomas White. 
 "roy — Sam Cartwright. 
 Venton — F. Menzl. 
 'aylorville — I. G. Proud, 
 ''irden — P. P. Delehanty. 
 ''Irden — Luke Cummins. 
 Vestville — Evan Evans. 
 Vestvllle — Mark Roberts. 
 V^estville — Henry Plumer. 
 Vestville — James Dunn. 
 Vestville — ^John Morris, 
 parta — Jas. L. Rogers. 
 Iparta — Paul Berryman. 
 Vanlock— F. M. Guthrie. 
 Vanlock— W. G. Miller. 
 
 Williamsville — John Currle. 
 Witt— Andrew Bruke. 
 Worden — John Watson. 
 Williamsville— Fount Russell. 
 Williamsville— Fount Clayton. 
 Wenona— David Griffiths. 
 Litchfield— Geo. H. Harland. 
 Marion— Geo. Badders. 
 Danville— W. R. Taylor. 
 Springfield— A. C. Foley. 
 Breeds— T. H. Picton. 
 Westville— Andrew Appanaltls. 
 Marysville— D. A. Reed. 
 Canton— W. Phillips. 
 Kangley— G€orge Clay. 
 Kangley— P. J. Murray. 
 Wesley City— Prank Hammond. 
 Carterville — James Kelly. 
 Missionfield— Hugh Crargmyle. 
 Carterville— Ed. B. Williamson. 
 Schullne— Geo. Bagwell. 
 
APPENDIX. 
 
 Reports of Special Joint District Meetings held in Peoria 
 
 during the progress of the Joint Convention, the 
 
 results of which are referred to in 
 
 the foregoing proceedings. 
 
 First District February 27, 1902. 
 
 Eighth District March 7, 1902. 
 
MEETING OF 
 
 MINERS AND OPERATORS 
 
 OF NORTHERN ILLINOIS. 
 
 Peoria, Illinois, Feb. 27, 1902. 
 
 At the morning session a motion was 
 made and carried that the operators 
 and miners' delegates from the long 
 wall mines of the third vein field of the 
 First district meet in the committee 
 room at 2 d. m. 
 
 On motion of Mr. Bent W. D. Ryan 
 was made chairman of the' committee. 
 Duncan McDonald, of Oglesby, was 
 made secretary. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— In order to get this 
 matter clearly before this committee, 
 I will say that the miners have present- 
 ed a proposition to the operators of 
 northern Illinois, or what is known aa 
 the First district, and the operators 
 have presented a proposition Va the 
 miners on the scale committee. This 
 matter has been argued at considerable 
 length, but we failed to agree. I will 
 read first the proposition ma.de toy 
 the miners, and then the proposition 
 made by the operators. 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 
 Streator, Clarke City, Kangley, in- 
 cluding Toluca and Cardiff thick vein, 
 58 cents. 
 
 All coal four fe&t and under, 68 cents; 
 the minimum height to be three feet. 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, Wil- 
 mington and associated mines, Pon- 
 tiac, Cardiff long wall, including Streat- 
 or and Bloomington thin veins, 81 
 cents; including twenty-four inches of 
 brushing. 
 
 Cross roads and headings, 9 9-10 
 cents extra. 
 
 Bloomington thick vein, 71 cents. 
 
 Pontiac top vein, 58 cents. 
 
 Corcoran, $1.10, with third vein con- 
 ditions, (Morris). 
 
 FIRST DISTRICT. 
 
 Streator, Cardiff and associated 
 mines, including Toluca thick vein, 58 
 cents. 
 
 Third vein and associated mines, in- 
 cluding twenty-four inches of . brush- 
 ing, 76 cents. 
 
 Wilmington and associated mines, in- 
 cluding Cardiff long wall and Bloom- 
 
 ington thin vein, including brushing, 
 81 cents. 
 
 Bloomington thick vein, 71 cents. 
 
 Pontiac, including 24 inches of brush/- 
 ing, 81 cents. 
 
 Marseilles, Seneca and Morris (Wil- 
 mington conditions), 81 cents. 
 
 Clarke City, lower seam, brushing in 
 coal, 66 cents. 
 
 The only two points on which both 
 sides have agreed are the Bloomington 
 thick vein, 71 cents, and the Pontiac 
 thick vein, 58 cents. Those two points 
 received, the affirmative votes of both 
 operators nad miners in the scale com- 
 mittee. They agreed, so far as the 58 
 cents was concerned, for Streator, Car- 
 diff and associated mines, including To- 
 luca thick vein, but there was a condi- 
 tion brought up here which has pre- 
 vented the operators from casting an 
 affirmative vote on these points. The 
 operators have taken the general posi- 
 tion that the changes offered by the 
 miners will advance the cost of coal, 
 and for that reason they have been un- 
 able to agree to it in the shape it was 
 presented to the scale committee. 
 
 We thought best to eliminate outside 
 miners and operators in this confer- 
 ence this afternoon. The committee 
 has reached the stage where all the dis- 
 tricts which have not agreed have de- 
 cided to go into meetings of their own 
 this afternoon. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— That is a cor- 
 rect statement of the situation of the 
 scale committee. 
 
 (It was moved that the miners' scale 
 for the First district be taken up ser- 
 iatim). (Seconded and adopted). 
 
 (The First district scale presented by 
 the miners was read by Secretary Mc- 
 Donald). 
 
 MR. BENT: — This is only a meeting 
 of the long wall representatives. Our 
 intent in voting for that motion was 
 that it should include the thin vein at 
 Streator, not the thick vpin. A sepa- 
 rate meeting has been arranged for 
 that. 'The action of the committee this 
 morning meant the long wall mines. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— That will come 
 up later anyhow. It might as well be 
 
314 
 
 Appendix — Bebruary 27. 
 
 taken up now as later; we will have to 
 consider It. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think Mr. Bent is 
 right when he says this meeting Is call- 
 ed for the long wall mines. I agree 
 with Mr. Ryan that it is a technicality, 
 and that the others will have to be 
 taken up sooner or later, and I think 
 we might as well face the matter 
 squarely here this afternoon and take 
 up everything in connection with this 
 field. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— The operators 
 for whom the meeting of the thick vein 
 representatives had been called said 
 they did not care to call it until after 
 this meeting, because they were inter- 
 ested here. 
 
 MR. BENT: — My purpose was ntot 
 technical; it was to expedite business. 
 A large majority of the people In this 
 room are not interested in this question 
 and it oould be handled much better by 
 them in a separate meeting. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that coal 
 four feet and less In the thick veins of 
 the First district be referred back to 
 the sub-district for adjustment. (Sec- 
 onded by Mr. Perry). . 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:- This only afEects 
 two mines at Streator. We believe the 
 coal there is less than fouc feet in 
 height. The operators do not admit 
 this. They say they cannot see how 
 co.al ciould go from eight feet to four 
 feet. If they are right, we will not ask 
 more than the regular price for coal 
 in that vein. The mines I speak of are 
 the Kangley mine and the Barrackman 
 mine. In the Kangley mine the coal 
 driving towards the river does go be- 
 low four feet, and we would like to 
 have a satisfactory scale for that coal. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I would like to 
 ask the representative from Clarke 
 City hovii. thick the coal is there. 
 
 MR. KNOTT: — We are not working 
 the thick vein in Clarke City now. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The evidence given 
 before the scale committee by the del- 
 egates would seem to me to be conclu- 
 .slve proof that this matter does not 
 belong in a state meeting. They admit 
 that the Barrackman mine has a sat- 
 isfactory agreement, and the conten- 
 tion comes down to some thin coal In 
 the Kangley shaft, a shaft that is so 
 old that it Is back about a mile and a 
 half. The mine is practically w^orked 
 nut; there will be nothing gained by 
 making a scale for the few acres that 
 are left. They siay the coal has oome 
 down from eight feet to four feet. 
 When they were working that coal 
 over six feet they never took less than 
 the scale for the twto feet above the 
 Fix. The operators there contend that 
 the average of the coal is over five 
 feet. It is not probable that the shaft 
 will run the next scale year out. If it 
 was a new mine it might be fair to 
 bring it up here; but there is not a 
 man in the room that does not know 
 that the Kangley shaft has but a 
 fhoTt time to run. I don't think it Is 
 fair to the convention to withhold a 
 
 settlement in two districts where we 
 all agree on a price of 58 cents, by 
 trying to tack on a condition cover- 
 ing a few rooms in an old shaft. The 
 miners have come at us with a proposi- 
 tion to put in the staje contract the 
 referring to the sub-district of coal 
 four feet and under. I was never yet 
 in a local meeting where the miners 
 failed to 3.sk for what they thought 
 was coming to them, and I don't see 
 why they can't do it in this case. 
 
 DELEGATE:— There are places 
 there below four feet. It is very defi- 
 cient work, and I think the matter 
 ought to be taken up in this conven- 
 tion. 
 
 DELEGATE: — There are places 
 says is correct, and the Kangley mine 
 averages five feet, they will not be 
 called on to pay a cent extra. I say 
 that not more than twenty of the 
 rooms will average five feet. If you 
 were to go down there to work you 
 would find this to be true. There are 
 places working there today where the 
 coal is only three feet, four inches. 
 They are paying for rock here in this 
 Peoria district. Where you get this 
 low coal you have from four to ten 
 inches of rock there. I worked there 
 and my two sons and I handled over a 
 thousand tons of rock in the three 
 rooms. If that don't want taking up 
 here I don't know what does. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Do you advo- 
 cate fixing the price on the average of 
 that mine, or in the respective places 
 that are low? 
 
 MR. CLAY:— Mr. Taylor spoke of the 
 average in the places being five feet. 
 I was referring to what Mr. Tavlor 
 said, and I say if what he said is true 
 there will not be anything to pay. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: — The miners are 
 not asking to have the scale fixed on 
 the average. W^here the coal gets 
 down to four feet and less they have 
 a right to take it up at home. Mr. Tay- 
 lor says they don't want to have the 
 whole district tied up because of two 
 local mines. We agree with him. We 
 want to adopt the scale we have pro- 
 posed, but we want- a right to take up 
 the low coal scale back there. If the 
 operators would rather have us fix the 
 scale for low coal here, w^e will vote 
 for that proposition. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— In order that I may 
 make the record clear, I will say thai 
 my statement about the average of the 
 coal was based upon a telegram from 
 the officers of the Starr Coal Company 
 in reply to a request from me for this 
 information. 
 
 "The thickest coal is five feet ter 
 inches: the thinnest is four feet; the 
 average of the doal five feet strong." 
 MR. RYAN:— That being the fad 
 why do you object to sending back tc 
 the sub-district for settlement anj 
 coal under four feet if you haven'1 
 got any? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — I believe this coa 
 Is like almost every other case wher( 
 the thickness of coal in a mine become* 
 
Appendix — February 27. 
 
 345 
 
 a question between the miner and the 
 operator. I feel personally that as Mr. 
 Rathbun is here and knows all about 
 the Kangley shaft, and I do not know 
 about it, that we should appoint a little 
 committee of Mr. Rathbun and the 
 delegates from Kangley, ask them to 
 retire from this meeting for a confer- 
 ence among themselves, and report 
 back to this meeting. We are trying 
 to discuss something we don't kruoiw 
 anything about. I move that such a 
 ■committee be appointed, and that they 
 retire fr^om the committee room and 
 take up this question. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— If there are 
 TiO' objections this will be done; a mo- 
 tion is unnecessary. If Mr. Rathbun 
 and the delegates from the Kangley 
 "mine wish they can withdraw and take 
 this matter up and report back here 
 as soon as they can. 
 
 (Mr. Rathbun and the delegates from 
 the Kangley mine retired from the 
 committee noom.) 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 include in the matter referred to. the 
 •committee the Barrackman mine. 
 
 CHAIRMAN JIYAN:— If there are no 
 objections the question of the Barrack- 
 man mine will also be taken up at the 
 same time. Who represents the Bar- 
 rackman mine on the side of the op- 
 erators? 
 
 MR. BENT:— I don't think he is here 
 "today. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— In order to sepa- 
 rate these two questions, I move that 
 the scale for the Barrackman mine at 
 "Streator be referred back to the sub- 
 district for settlement. (Sedonded). 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- 1 understand that 
 the contract has always been between 
 the Barrackman Coal Company and 
 their own employes and the officials of 
 the miners' organization. I would 
 amend the motion by referring it back 
 to the Barrackman Coal Company and 
 their employes at Streator. (Second- 
 •ed). 
 
 MR. KING:— This has always been 
 taken up with the Barrackman Coal 
 ■Company, the men employed there, and 
 the miners' officials. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I wish Mr. Taylor 
 "would change his motion so as to pro- 
 vide that it shall be taken up by the 
 Barrackman Coal Company, the men 
 employed there and the miners' offic- 
 ials. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— There is noi inten- 
 tion on my part to get away from the 
 officers of the organization. We sim- 
 ply do not want it in the sub-district 
 meeting. 
 
 fOn the motion to refer to the Bar- 
 rackman Coal Company, the men em- 
 ployed there and the miners' officials, 
 the operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the m'otion was declar- 
 ed carried). 
 
 MR. BENT: — Is it in order; for the 
 secretary to read the second clause in 
 the miners' scale? 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN: -You don't de- 
 .«ire to take any action on the price in 
 
 the thick vein until the other matter 
 is reported back, do you? 
 
 MR. BENT:— No. 
 
 (Secretary McDonald read the sec- 
 ond clause in the first district scale as 
 presented by the miners.) 
 
 "Third vein and associated mine^, 
 Wilmington and associated mines, Pon- 
 tiac, Cardiff long wall, including 
 Streator and Bloomington thin veins, 
 81 cents; including 24 inches of brush- 
 ing." 
 
 (It was moved and seconded that the 
 clause be adopted as read). 
 
 MR. BENT:— I would offer as an 
 amendment: "Third vein and assoc- 
 iated mines, including twenty-four in- 
 ches of brushing, 76 cents. Wilmington 
 and associated mines, including Car- 
 diff long wall and Bloomington thin 
 vein, including brushing, 81 cents." 
 (Seconded by Mr. Taylor). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 have Mr. Bent define what he means 
 by brushing in the W^ilmjngton field. 
 
 MR. BENT;— The existing coaditions. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I would like to 
 have Mr. Bent explain what he means 
 by "existing conditions." 
 
 MR. BENT:- 1 thought that every 
 man who has lived in the northern field 
 of Illinois knew what the Wilmington 
 rules were as at present existing. It Is 
 hearsay with me; but I have heard It 
 ever since I was a boy. The op- 
 erators offer the existing third vein 
 conditions and the existing third vein 
 price, and the Wilmington price as at 
 present, with the present Wilmington 
 rules. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We have not dur- 
 ing the past year been able to agree 
 what the rules in the Wilmington field 
 are. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I am not familiar 
 enough with them to answer; someone 
 else will have to answer your question. 
 
 MR. THOMPSON:— I think our dis- 
 tinguished fellow committeeman, Mr. 
 Bent, is perfectly familiar at the pres- 
 ent time, and has been, with the exist- 
 ing conditions. I want to have those 
 existing conditions changed. For the 
 81 cents they now make us put in our 
 cross roads and drive tour headings 
 without any compensation, and we 
 want to get what belongs to us for that 
 work. 
 
 MR. BBATTIE:— I rise to a point of 
 order. We are rtot discussing cross 
 roads, we are discussing the scale read 
 by the secretary. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I was about to 
 call the attention of the delegate to 
 tho fact that the matter he speaks of 
 will come up in the next section. The 
 section now before the committee re- 
 lates tlo the price of mining coal. Mr. 
 Bent was asked to explain what he 
 meant by existing conditions In the 
 AVilmington field. 
 
 MR. THOMPSON:— That is what I 
 am talking about, the existing condi- 
 tions. In my opinion if you pass that 
 we will be under the same conditions 
 and the same price as last year. That 
 
346 
 
 Appendix— February 27. 
 
 is the stand I take. We want the ex- 
 isting conditions changed. 
 
 MR. TATLkOR:— The operatois want 
 to hear froirf every delegate that has 
 anything to say on this subject, and 
 we don't want any rules that will stop 
 a man from talking on this scale price. 
 We are here to discuss this matter 
 freely and squarely, and we want to 
 hear from everyone. 
 
 MR. BEATTTE:— I understand that 
 the condition we asked Mr. Bent to ex- 
 plain was the condition of brushing. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Every person 
 here has a right to make any state- 
 ment he wishes on this matter. We 
 want to get all the information we can 
 on the matter. 
 
 MR. BENT: — There is no disposition 
 here to take any technical advantage 
 whatever. The conditions we speak of 
 are not entry prices. The passing of 
 this here does not mean that, until we 
 come to that particular question. "We 
 have a chairman who has served notice 
 that he will not make any technical 
 rulings. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL.:— We dSsagree as 
 to what the rules in the Wilmington 
 field are. The operators contend that 
 if a fall comes on the roadway after 
 it is brushed, and is more than four 
 feet in height, the miners must clean 
 it up at their price. The miners dis- 
 agreed with them, and say that if a 
 fall comes on a roadway at a placei 
 where it is more than four feet from 
 the rail, it ought to be cleaned at the 
 expense of the company. We want to 
 be perfectly clear in this maitter. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — A question was ask- 
 ed about the W^ilmington field. Mr. 
 Bent could not answer it." If you wish 
 to ask me the question I will answer 
 it. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN: — The amend- 
 ment was made by Mr. Bent. Part of 
 his amendment was: "Wilmington and 
 assiociated mines, including Cardiff long 
 wall and Blooniington thin Vein, in- 
 cluding brushing." Mr. Bent having 
 made the motion I thought it was 
 proper to ask him to explain what he 
 meant. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I meant existing con- 
 ditions. 1 am not an authority as to 
 those in ithe Wilmington field. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— In reference to that 
 pait of the Wilmington rules regard- 
 ing the maintenance of the roads, the 
 rule Is that the road shall be main- 
 tained four fee't from the rail to the 
 first switch, providing it does not go 
 beyond a hundred yards from the face. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— It was seventy- 
 five. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— It is one hundred 
 yards. There is one shaft in the field 
 that voluntarily keeps it seventy-five 
 yards on account lof some conditions 
 there. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Did you not 
 state yesterday that it was seventy- 
 five yards? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Only at Braceville. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— You did not 
 mention BracevUlIe. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL: —Supposing the 
 road was six feelt high from the rail 
 and a fall came there. Would the min- 
 ers have to clean that at their expense? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— A man is responsible 
 for his road one hundred yards from 
 the face, or to the first switch, provid- 
 ing it does not exceed one hundred 
 yards from the face, and he must keep 
 tha!t roa;d. 
 
 MR- MITCHELL:— Supposing a fall 
 comes at a place where it is four feet 
 or more from the rail, would the miners 
 have to clean that at their exi>ense? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR: — Under my under- 
 standing of the rules there he must 
 clean it. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I claim, and I 
 took the same position last year, that 
 a miner does not have to do anything 
 of the kind. I contend that under the 
 present agreement the miner complies 
 with all the ordinary conditions under 
 the rules when he makes his road four 
 feet high. He has done everjrthing he 
 is paid for under the agreement whett 
 he keeps Ms road four feet high. I 
 contend that if a fall comes there it 
 it an extraordinary condition, and he 
 has nothing to do with it, and the 
 company should pay the men to clean 
 it up or pay the miners for doing it. 
 That is the only proper interpretation 
 of the agreement; that is the only in- 
 terpretation that can be placed on the 
 present rule. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Wilmington coal op- 
 erators claim that in paying five cents 
 above LaSalle they pay a price which 
 covers this work. They would not pay 
 five cents higher than LaSaJle If it 
 did not cover it. LaSalle pays ten 
 cents over the price and Wilmington 
 pays fifteen cents. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— The miners in 
 the third vein field get 76 cents a ton 
 and all they are asked to do is to take 
 24 inches of brushing. We get five 
 cents more in the W^ilming'ton field to 
 take the road four feet high. If the 
 miners in the third vein field had to go 
 back and clean a fall after they took 
 the 24 inches of brushing there would 
 be something fo your argument, but 
 they don't do it. We comply with all 
 the rules in the Wilmington field for 
 that 81 cents when we make that road 
 four feet high, and we should not be 
 called upon to do any more than the 
 miners in the third vein field are call- 
 ed upon to do after they have taken 
 24 inches of brushing. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The miniers In the 
 third vein field are relieved of the care 
 of the road because the company does 
 this work. If a fall comes probably 
 the company cleans it up; but if the 
 miner in the Wilming'ton field gets five 
 cents for thait and for maintaining it, 
 the duty comes on him just as it does 
 on the company in the third vein field 
 to clean up that fall and maintain the 
 road. 
 
 MR. ISEATT, Ladd:— Do T under- 
 
Appendix — February 27. 
 
 347 
 
 stand that the Wilmington men want 
 tO' Surrender the five cents they have 
 over and aborve the third vein and let 
 the operators have that? 
 
 MR. MONAGHAN:— No, slir. 
 
 MR. ISEATT:— Wait untU I explain 
 myself. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:—! think he means 
 that they fix a uniform price between 
 Wilming-ton and the third vein field. 
 They are willing to surrender the five 
 cents they have over and above, but 
 the only thing, I think, that interferes 
 for the present is in making the pres- 
 ent agreement, that In asking for thla 
 five cents to be surrendered to the op- 
 erators they also ask that the northern 
 field ask five cents of a raise. That 
 will make them 81 cents, and the Wil- 
 mington field is willing to dig that coal 
 and take 24 inches of brushing for the 
 81 cents. If the operators contend that 
 they have been paying five cents over 
 and above for brushing of the roads 
 one hundred yards, I understand they 
 are willing to surrender that to the 
 operators in order toi see if they can 
 clean it cheaper than the miners can. 
 
 MR. ISEATT:— We want 81 cents a 
 ton and take two feet of brusMng. 
 After that let the operators take care 
 of the roads. I believe it is right that 
 the operators should try to make as 
 good an agreement for themselves as 
 possible and I believe we should make 
 the same contention. I don't see any 
 harm in this. If the operators think 
 that five cents paid the miners for ex- 
 tra work is enough, I don't see why 
 they should not take that five cents 
 and do the work themselves. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- Do I understand 
 that you make a proposition to dig 
 the Wilmington coal, and let the com- 
 pany do the brushing, and stlill pay 
 you 81 cents? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We are willing to 
 dig the Wilmington coal alt the present 
 prices, you to do the brushing. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- Tou would like to 
 keep your price ajid let us do your 
 work for you. I move that we talk 
 business. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I would like to ask 
 Mr. Taylor and Mr. Bent, taking the 
 interpretation they have given us of 
 the present conditions existing in the 
 Wilmington field, i( they think it is a 
 fair position? I don't say between 
 company and man, but beitween man 
 arid man, IS it fair? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I believe it is abso- 
 lutely fair. The company could take 
 that road for five cents and make 
 money at lit. In the days when con- 
 tracts were let in the Wilmington dis- 
 trict men got rich taking these con- 
 tracts at five cents. Nowj to get away 
 from this cross firing, I want to say 
 to you in all sincerity, and I shall 
 answer Mr. Perry as sincerely as he 
 has asked me to, that with ail the con- 
 tentions about northern Illinoiis not be- 
 ing able to give their men the wages 
 they have in other parts of the state; 
 your operators have been few in num- 
 
 ber, they have been in mining industry 
 most of them for twenty-five to thirty 
 years and have had.long and close con- 
 nections with railroads, and have been 
 able for that reason and because of 
 their integrity in carrying out their 
 contracts, to get even terms with their 
 competitors at the delivering points. In 
 order to work these northern mines we 
 must work them steadily. If we only 
 took the business that brought a high 
 price the mines would be idle so many 
 days that the cost ■ of opening them 
 would be so high we could not operate 
 them at all. Therefore we have gone to 
 the railroads with which we have close 
 connections and have taken 'large rail- 
 road contracts and manufacturing con- 
 tracts at prices so close to the labor 
 c<>st that it has not even neltted them 
 enough to make any return for the 
 prices paid for the coal land. It is 
 safe to say thaJt 80 per cent of the 
 coal in northern Illinois is under these 
 contracts. The free coal we get a good 
 price for, but Sn order to kee'p the 
 mines running the Worthem niinods op- 
 erators have had to take a larger per 
 cent of the contracts than they other- 
 wise would. We have demonstrated to 
 those whom we wanted to show our 
 books to, or . could trusit our Inside af- 
 fairs to, these facts; and I don't be- 
 lieve with all our spats in norithern 
 Illinois, but that the miners know 
 when it comes to a show-down we 
 can substantiate these facts. When 
 we talk about prices we are telling 
 the truth. There is nothing in the 
 northern Illinois situation that will 
 permit us to pay one cent in price or 
 add to the cost of the coal by condi- 
 tions and continue to sell our coal. 
 In our Wilmington field last summer 
 we got a contract which we thought 
 would last through the year. We did 
 not have it a week before we met com- 
 petition, and were told we had to 
 meeit the price, and we were compelled 
 to let lit go. Coal that we used to 
 send to Chicago for railroad consump- 
 tion has been taken away from us, and 
 it has been only through the outlying 
 connections that we were able to hold 
 our trade this year. We have been 
 forced to lower our price, and we have 
 had to do it to hold our tonnage and 
 to run the mines enough days so that 
 we could run them' cheaply enough to 
 keep on the market at all. 
 
 We realize that we cannot make a 
 change until conditions all over the 
 country will warrant us Sn doing so, 
 until conditions all over the country 
 will warrant a higher selling price. The 
 prices have been nipped off every year 
 since the large advance in '97 or '98. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— This may all be true, 
 and I don't think Mr. Taylor would 
 get up and state' what he does not 
 believe to be true, but we all have 
 differences of opinion. It does not 
 seem consistent to me that when coal 
 is sold on such close margins, that in 
 that very field — where I can see no 
 hopfes of getting a better profit next 
 
348 
 
 Appendix — February 27. 
 
 year tban they got last— in that very 
 field the largest shaft in the world has 
 TDeen sunk during this depression. This 
 shaft is not only the largest one in the. 
 ■country, but it is equipped with all 
 the modern appliancesi Not only that, 
 but at others they have torn down 
 their old towers and have built new 
 ones. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— In the Wilmington 
 field? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— In the third vedn field. 
 You have lincluded that; in speaking 
 of your price you have based them 
 alike, claiming that five cents is in- 
 tended for brushing. In your own argu- 
 ment I gather that you say they are 
 alike in price; that the cost of mining 
 is the same in both fields, and you 
 claim the five cents is for the brush- 
 ing. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think they ar© 
 relatively the same; that is my con- 
 "tenition. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— That is the under- 
 standing. I don't think a man would 
 put in capital and tie it up to get 
 his coal out of the ground and get 
 nothing but the royalty out of the coal. 
 T don't think it is necessary to go over 
 all the arguments we went over in the 
 scale committee. Some of the delegates 
 were not here and some of the opera- 
 tors were not here. I think I shall cut 
 that all out. But I do want to say 
 this: You said you thought the condi- 
 tions in the Wilmington field were just, 
 and that these conditions had been in 
 vogue for a number of years. Is it 
 not true that in all these years the 
 miners have looked upon it as a bur- 
 -den, and that every year they have 
 made an effort to throw that burden 
 ott"! They have not accepted it meek- 
 ly; they accepted it as something that 
 could not be helped. Is this not true? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— No; It is not true 
 that they have endeavored to throw 
 ■off the brushing. I don't want to have 
 ga unchallenged the words, "five cents 
 for brushing." The brushing there is 
 fifteen cents. The five cents is the 
 price we pay above the third vein field. 
 Almost every year the miners have 
 made the same contention, to throw off 
 the brushing but maintain the price. 
 "They want the price, but they want to 
 get rid of the work. But they have 
 never offered to throw o.ff the brushing 
 and throw oft the price with it. It Is 
 dangerous to commence changing the 
 •condition in a field where it has been 
 established for many years; because 
 you will open up contentions, through 
 the field that cannot be avoided, and 
 it will eventually get the companies and 
 their employes in a fight, and we want 
 to avoid that. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— You say the miners 
 liave been endeavoring to throw off the 
 brushing. Because this has been in 
 vogue for many years is no reasion why 
 it is a just rule or why it should be 
 maintained any longer. It may be 
 ■dangerous, but I don't think so, because 
 we have often changed conditions that 
 
 have existed longer than this has ex- 
 isted. We have not found it damg-erous, 
 and it has certainly proved a great suc- 
 cess. I know it was for the benefit 
 of both the miners and the operators 
 when we changed conditions in the 
 southern part of the state, and some 
 of those conditions had been in vogue 
 longer than the conditions we are dis- 
 cussing have existed in the Wilmington 
 field. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Perry has spoken 
 of one thing that requires explanation. 
 This is in reference to aditiomal capital 
 being invested in the northern field. 
 He says that this indicates that busi- 
 ness has been profitable. If anything 
 has been so obvious Ini the past few 
 years as to cause comment, it Is that 
 while new shafts are being sunk here 
 and there all over the state and there 
 has been a growth In tonnag'e, the con- 
 ditions in the third vein field, with a 
 solitary exception, which I will explain, 
 most of the mines have been stationery. 
 On the line of the Illinois Central the 
 changes are inconsequential. Shafts 
 are not being sunk and operated, and 
 as against increased capacdty in one 
 mine there is decreased capacity in 
 anoither. I don't believe the output on 
 the Illinois Central has been increased 
 in ten years. With a single exception. 
 That exception is Spring VaUey. When 
 the Spring Valley mines were first op- 
 ened business was taken that had been 
 enjoyed ajt LaSalle and other points, 
 and caused a great hardship for a 
 few months, and somewhat of a hard- 
 ship for many years. But it is now a 
 great many years since the business at 
 Spring Valley has been done "at the 
 expense of the rest of the third vein 
 field. The Increased business at Spring 
 Valley of late years has not oome at 
 the expense of the First district. 
 Everyone knows that the Northweetesm 
 road furnishes the principal business 
 for the Spring Valley Coal company. 
 This increased business formerly went 
 to mines in Iowa. It is well known 
 that mines in Iowa that formerly fur- 
 nished coal for the Northwestern road 
 are being exhausted. The road is nam 
 preparing to get an increased amouni 
 of coal at Spring Valley. The facts ir 
 the case are, that with a single ex- 
 ception — the exception being Spring 
 Valley, which is no more crlterioti foi 
 the conditions existing in northerr 
 Illinois than if it was in some othei 
 field — with this single exception thert 
 has been no growth. Mines are nol 
 beiing put down or developed. Th< 
 business in the northern field woulc 
 show a loss if the country was nol 
 lin an unusually prosperous condition 
 As far as competitive busine!ss is oon 
 oerned, both the Wilmington field ant 
 the third vein are losing ground. I 
 was noticable to everybody, and espec 
 ially to the miners, in the hard times 
 It is still noticable to us, but not s> 
 noticable to the miners. In all com- 
 petitive markets we are losing ground 
 The staltements show it month b; 
 
Appendix — Pbbruary 27. 
 
 349' 
 
 month, and it shows for the whole year. 
 Our coal does not go as far as it did 
 last year in 'the northwest, nor did it 
 g'O as far last year as it did the year 
 before, nor does it go in such large 
 quantities. Bast em coals, especially 
 Hocking Valley coal is making steady 
 gains in our territory, largely by "way 
 of the head of the lakes, and possibly 
 by all rail via Chicago. Business is 
 very active in the east and Hocking 
 Valley coal is higher at the mines than 
 it was, yet it remains that with high 
 prices and inadequate tranaportatiom, 
 Hocking Valley coal, via CMcagov is 
 going into our territory more than ever. 
 "When those conditions have ceased, 
 when Hocking Valley coal is selling at 
 the mines at a normal price and the 
 railroads have sufficient equipment to 
 let the coal go west of Chicagio, it is 
 obvious that vre caninoit hold our place 
 in any part of the western market, 
 even that nearest hom,e, agains't Hock- 
 ing coal. There are various, things that 
 have caused this change. The coal go- 
 ing across the lakes goes very much 
 cheaper than formerly. I can remem- 
 ber when the lake rates were from two 
 to two and a half times as high as 
 they are now. The car ferry takes coal 
 across in the winter months as well as 
 in the summer, and freight rates have 
 befen pared down to Chicago to an 
 astonishing extent; but the largest fac- 
 tor lin that is one well known to your 
 leaders at least, because your efforts 
 have been directed to eradicating it in 
 every national convention in late years. 
 I refer to the machine differential in 
 Pennsylvania and Ohio. "We believe 
 the ditEerential In Illinolis is unjuslt to 
 the' operator; that seven cenlts Is not a 
 proper differential to jusitify the invest- 
 ment of capital in mining machinery. 
 We believe the machine differential in 
 Ohio and Pennsylvania Is far more un- 
 just and away from right the other 
 way than is the Illinois differential. It 
 is 24 cents In the Hocking Valley, and 
 pick mines camnot send coal across the 
 lakes at all. That ooal, instead of 
 being mined at 80 cents, is being m.ined 
 at 56 cents^ — 24 cents of a differential. 
 We are supposed ito be on a scale com- 
 petitive with Hocking Valley. We are 
 really far off the scale. We are not 
 dealing with five cents, we are not 
 dealing with the four cenlts we Wrong- 
 fully conceded two years ago, which 
 we ought not Vo have conceded, but 
 we are dealing with twenty cents. We 
 are out of line that much with Hook- 
 ing Valley now. 
 
 Tou ask how nor'thern Illinois has 
 been running, so steadily the past two 
 years. Tou say if we have lost ground 
 in Chicago and the northwest, how is 
 it we are running so steadily? We ad- 
 mit we are running steadily; bult the 
 increase in our business comes frtom 
 the same ralilroads we have been sup- 
 plying all these years, no more rail- 
 roads, and it only represents their in- 
 creased consumption on accounit of the 
 increased prosperity in the country. In 
 
 the summer they take the maximum, 
 and in the winter they take more than, 
 the maximum, and their tonnage is 
 larger than for ordinary times. The- 
 railroads that always buy in the Wil- 
 mington field are taking more coal than 
 usual. As soon as this period of busi- 
 ness activity ceases, then the opera- 
 tors will find jusit how far they are out 
 of line, and they will be unable to com- 
 pete. 
 
 Mr. Perry said that because we were- 
 not asking any change in the contract 
 was evidence we were able to success- 
 fully comi>ete for business. This goes 
 to show that the operators are unwise- 
 to continue to pay that four cents in- 
 stead of telling you that they can no 
 longer pay it. Thalt matter has receiv- 
 ed serious consideration at our hands. 
 No mistake was made in 1897 in that 
 se'ttlement, and your side frankly ad- 
 mits now that no mistake was made; 
 but we conceded it because we did not. 
 want any more contention about it, 
 and because the sentiment existed that 
 it had been taken away, we conceded 
 it in the Interest of peace. It was 
 those arguments thaJt made us concede 
 the four cents. Biiit when we did do it 
 we stated distlniotly that it would 
 throw us out of line in ordinary times; 
 that we could only pay it during the- 
 continuance of the good trade condi- 
 tions that then existed; that when those 
 conditions were not in force we would 
 ask it back. The next year we re- 
 newed the contract. The prophecy we 
 then made was fulfilled. I don't know 
 of a single railroad comtradt In north- 
 ern Illiniois that was not scaled down 
 last year, and you did not help us bear 
 the burden. 
 
 Mr. Perry stated that he did not 
 think it was reasonable to believe that 
 sensible business men would take con- 
 tracts for a price that would not pay 
 them for the coal in the ground. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I said It was unrea- 
 sonable to say they would Invesit more 
 capital in the developing of mines. 
 
 MR. BENT:— If you did not make the 
 other claim, Mr. Perry, I shall not an- 
 swer it. I have explained why the In- 
 vestment was made at Spring Valley, 
 The question now narrows down, to 
 this: It is not a question of rules or 
 conditions; it Isn't a quesitlom of entry 
 price; it isn't a question of two feet 
 of brushing. The only thing the opera- 
 tor cares about Is the cost of the coal 
 on the cars. It is now costing too 
 much, and it -will not stand any more. 
 We say there are strong reasons why 
 the rules In the third vein or the 
 Wilmington field' should not be chang- 
 ed; but the strong reason back of it 
 all Us, we are not able to pay any 
 more for our ooal, and you are attempt- 
 ing to change conditons so that you 
 will get more pay for your labor. It ia 
 remarkable how easy it is to state a 
 proposition ini a suave way, so It will 
 seem to mean something harmless, and 
 how easy It is to istate it in another 
 way. It has been stated that you are 
 
350 
 
 Appendix— Pbbruary 27. 
 
 noit asking Wilmlington operators to 
 take part of the brushing and still pay 
 the 81 certts, but you are offering to 
 give us the five cents. The only differ- 
 ence between them is the way you state 
 it. You give the operators the five cents 
 in one line, and in the next you ask 
 them to give it back to you. Tou ask 
 for certain things you like to one field 
 and something you like in the other, 
 and ask for both in one fieJd. Tou like 
 the two feet of brushing, and you offer 
 -;t to our friends in the Wilmington 
 field, but you want to retain the price 
 of 81 cents. 
 
 If there is any par't of the competitive 
 field, with the excepition of Hocking 
 Valley, that has long-existing condi- 
 tions thaJt have been recognized, that 
 portion of the field Is northern Illinois. 
 We see nothing to be gained by chang- 
 ing them. We say when the cost of 
 mining is too low we will advance, and 
 when it is too high we will lower it. 
 
 MR. WILLIAM MONAGHAN:— The 
 last speaker has given us what I sup- 
 pose is a statistical review of the find- 
 ings in the field in comparison with the 
 decrease of coal. To me he has brought 
 to mind the fact that machinery is a 
 large factor, in this way. I want to 
 correct him by saying that ithere are 
 not so many human machines in the 
 field as there were in the past. The 
 men are leaving that field, and have 
 been doing it, still Ihe increase in pro- 
 duction is there. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Mr. Bent has 
 made onie Statement I don't propose to 
 let go unchallenged. The operators of 
 northern lUiinols have endeavored to 
 fill the records, by saying that they 
 gave us four cents for sen/tlmemital 
 reasons, and because we said there 
 would be no peace in Illinois unless 
 they gave it. Tou didn't give us four 
 cents at all as a maJtter of sentiment 
 or as the price of peace. Tou gave it 
 because we were entitled to it. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Thalt is no't the case. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— Is it not true that 
 the mining priice was advanced ten 
 cents a ton in the Chicago agreement 
 in 1898, and you gave three cents In 
 northern Illiniols? 
 
 Mfe. BENT:— I answered that State- 
 ment yesterday. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— If I had been in 
 that meeting in Chicago I should have 
 protested to the last against the ac- 
 ceptance of three cents a ton as the 
 equivalent of ten cents screened coaj. 
 WeT were entitled to> ten cents a ton, 
 less one-sixth for screenings, which 
 would have given us 8% cents a ton 
 advance linstead of three cents. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RTAN:— Instead of the 
 operators giving that four cents for 
 peace, we gave it to them in Chicago as 
 the price of peace. We had just got 
 through a Strike, and the operators 
 claimed that was all they could pay 
 in northern Illinois at that time, and I 
 was one of those who favored the ac- 
 ceptance of It, not because we thought 
 it was all we were enitltled to, but in- 
 
 stead of their saying they gave it up 
 as the price of peace two years ago. I 
 will say we gave it up as the price 
 of peace in Chicago, and waited two 
 years to get It back. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:- 1 want to call your 
 attention to one thing. At the time of 
 the Chicago agrreement we had come 
 through a big strike and we all want- 
 ed peace. Mr. Mitchell has stated three 
 or four times in the convention, and I 
 have raised the point before, that he 
 has contended that the three cents ad- 
 vance in mine-run in Illinois was not 
 equivalent to the ten-cent advance on 
 the screened lump coal. I want to 
 say that if you go a little further we 
 will say Illinois gave up the screen en- 
 tirely — the only state in the four that 
 did it — gave you mine-run, stopped the 
 contention that went with the screen, 
 and gave you the mine-run for the 
 state. Pennsylvania gave up one- 
 fourth inch on the screen, and kept the 
 screen, for nine cents. They paid just 
 one cent advance in Pennsylvania and 
 gave up one-fourth of an inch on the 
 screen. In Hocking Valley they paid 
 ten cents and got the uniform screen. 
 In Indiana they got the double 
 standard, and Mr. Bogle of Indiana 
 has stated on the fioor of the national 
 convention that if he did not have that 
 screen to protect him it would cost 
 him 25 per cent more to produce hla 
 coal. I have never been able to under- 
 stand how Pennsylvania figured out 
 nine cents on one-fourth of an inch on 
 the screen, and still kept the double 
 .standard. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— They haven't got 
 it. 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— What have they 
 got? The national agreement does al- 
 low them to mine mine-run coal. Mr. 
 Blackburn made the statement that 
 they did mine mine-run coal. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— The national 
 agreement says that Ohio and Pennsyl- 
 vania shall be on a screened coal basis. 
 There are a few places only where they 
 mine mine-run coal by agreement and 
 with the consent of the officers. As fai 
 as Indiana is Concerned, while the 
 agreement gives the operators the op- 
 tion, the fact of the matter is that the 
 miners have the option, and Mr. Bogle 
 pays for run-of-mlne coal. 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— They do run In 
 Pennsylvania in many of the mines or 
 a mine-run basis. They have the sin- 
 gle standard, but they run mine-rur 
 where it is g'ood for them, and they rur 
 lump coal when it is good for them. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RTAN:— As I under- 
 stand Mr. Taylor, he said they gave 
 ten cents of an advance and took the 
 mine-run system. Tou say nothing 
 about the 12% cents we gave you foi 
 the mine-run system. 
 
 MR. TATLOR:— I didn't, because ] 
 never knew anything about It. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— In regard to th( 
 third vein and the Hocking Valley 
 When we accepted the price In '97 W( 
 claimed that was the base, the basii 
 
Appendix — February 27. 
 
 351 
 
 •of Hocking Valley. When we got three 
 cents advance in '98 we had only 17% 
 per cent slack over a % inch screen. On 
 the same kind of a screen Hockins 
 Valley would produce more screenings 
 than we did. If we were not entitled 
 to 'that 8% cernts, who in God's name 
 was entitled to it? I claim we were 
 entitled to it. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I admit that you are 
 pretty well posted on Hocking Valley. 
 I would like to know where there was 
 any % inch screen used in the Hock- 
 ing Valley? 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— I said over a % inch 
 screen she would produce more screen- 
 ings. 
 
 MR. TATIiOR:— Did you ever see a 
 % Inch scjreen in the Hocking Valley? 
 MR. BEATTIE:'— No, sir. 
 MR. TAYLOR:— How do you know 
 it? 
 
 MR. BEATTIE: — I know more than 
 you do about it. 
 
 MR. BENT: — Did you ever mine coal 
 there with machines, Mr. Beattie? 
 MR. BEATTIE:— Yes, sir, I did. 
 MR. BENT:- The point Is right here. 
 It is not 80-cent coal in Ohio; they did 
 not advance. from 70 to 80 cents, they 
 advanced from a lower rate to 56 cents. 
 If you would give us the 80-cent rate 
 in the Hocking Valley the competition 
 we oomplain of would cease. The com- 
 petition we complain of in the Hock- 
 ing Valley is justificatibn for a lower 
 scale than we have today. The com- 
 petition would cease so far as the east 
 is concerned, and it would be an Illi- 
 nois question alone. We conceded four 
 cents two years ago. We cannot look 
 into the minds of Mr. Mitchell and Mr. 
 Ryan and know the thoughts that gov- 
 erned them at the time the scale was 
 made; we can only remember what 
 was said. Neither can they look into 
 our minds and know what our thoughts 
 were; they can only be governed by 
 what we said. Our motive two^ years 
 ago was to end the agitation and dis- 
 content in northern Illinois, and for 
 four cents to bring about peace and 
 ctontentment for as long a time as we 
 could afford it, and only so long as 
 that. The men thought they had lost 
 four cents in Sprinefield in 1897. The 
 argument used to get us to concede 
 that was the question of the agitation 
 for the four cents ever since the con- 
 vention in Springfield in 1897. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE;— iHave your conten- 
 tions for eighteen years been in regard 
 to the Hocking Valley, and at that 
 time Hocking Valley was on the pick 
 
 MR. BENT:— When they were on 
 the pick mining rate and their rate 
 across the lake was 60 to 70 cents a ton 
 we were on a Competitive basis with 
 them. Now we are out of line. It was 
 pick coal we were" competing with then 
 and now it Is machine competition and 
 we are out of line. 
 
 MR HE ALES:— We don't thank the 
 operators for giving us mine-run coal; 
 the government gave it to us. If we 
 
 waited for the operators to give it we 
 would never have it. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I am not going to 
 agree with Brother Heales that the 
 government of the state gave us mlne- 
 nm. The United Mine Workers of 
 America gave it to us. As long as I 
 can remember the operators of north- 
 ern Illinois have contended for lower 
 prices, or refused an advance in the 
 mining rate, upon the pretense that 
 they could not compete with coal min- 
 ed in southern Illinois. I remember 
 hearing Pana talked year In ahd year 
 out. They said years ago that if we 
 would bring up the south they would 
 be willing to advance the rate in the 
 northern field. We have brought up 
 the south. 
 
 MR. BENT:— And we have brought 
 up the northern field. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— You are paying a 
 lower rate in your field than was paid 
 thirteen years ago, and the rest of Illi- 
 nois is paying the highest price that 
 was ever paid since the mines have 
 been sunk. It seems to me that in view 
 of the fact that the mining rate has 
 been advanced in every other oonapeti- 
 tive field there should be a greater ad- 
 vance paid in northern Illinois. You 
 speak as though you surrendered some- 
 thing to us when you gave us run-oif- 
 mine. I say we paid for it. We took 
 three cents in the state of Illinois when 
 we ought to have had ten. 
 
 MR. BENT:— You did not take three 
 cents to buy mine-run with, but to ad- 
 just this state with Indiana. The op- 
 erators wish to be perfectly frank 
 about their competition. Mr. Mitchell 
 is partially right when he says we used 
 to talk about competition from the 
 central fields of Illinois, and especially 
 from' Pana. He is not correct if tie 
 means to have it understood that we 
 talked exclusively about the central 
 field. It is not true, if Mr. Mitchell 
 meant to have us understand that we 
 have ever talked about central Illinois 
 as the only competition that regulated 
 our scale. We have always' talked 
 about the competition from the east. 
 We were perfectly frank yesterday, 
 and will be now. We do not claim that 
 we are unable to hold our railroad bus- 
 iness as against Pana any more; but 
 we do claim that we are unable to take 
 any business away from Pana that she 
 used to enjoy or ought to enjoy now. 
 We are on a competitive basis with 
 Pana. We complain now of competi- 
 tion with Hocking Vajley, in the first 
 place, and of the condition of affairs 
 that exist in Chicago, which is the bas- 
 ing point for our product. The rail- 
 roads that buy our coal in the inter- 
 ior of Illinois buy Indiana and Illinois 
 coal in Chicago. The prices we get are 
 based on what they have to pay for 
 their coal in Chicago. While we do not 
 have the direct competition from the 
 interior, we are governed by prices on 
 their coals and Indiana coals in the 
 city of Chicago and that competition is 
 due partially to the cost of their ooal, 
 
352 
 
 Appendix — February 27. 
 
 but more largely due to the paring 
 away of freight rates from central and 
 southern Illinois and Indiana to the 
 city of Chicago. We have never claim- 
 ed that our case was an Illinois case 
 solely, or a Hocking Valley case solely; 
 it has always been both. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— When speaking of 
 the machine differential he has been 
 takine a 24-cent differential in the 
 Hockins Valley as against a seven- 
 cent differential in the state of Illi- 
 nois. That is incorrect. Remember 
 that your seven-cent differential in Illi- 
 nois is on a run-of-mine basis, and the 
 twenty-four cents in the Hocking Val- 
 ley is on screened coal, so it would be 
 something like 19 cents as against sev- 
 en cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Mr. Perry is absolutely 
 correct. I didn't go into details, that 
 is all. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I remember distinctly, 
 and it is true, and I wish Mr. Daj- 
 zell was here. I know he would bear 
 me out in it, that we have always had 
 southern Illinois thrown up to us in 
 the north. They have said, "Bring the 
 south up and we will bring you up. 'Do 
 you mean to tell me that the price paid 
 for coal today In the northern district 
 is on a relative basis as against the 
 prices they pay in the south today, 
 with the prices paid five years ago 
 against the price at that time In the 
 south? 
 
 MR. BENT: — I do mean to say so 
 competitively. I do not mean to say 
 £0 historically. Taking the respective 
 coals in common markets today, and ■w* 
 are competitive in just the same way 
 we sought to be years ago. The differ- 
 ential in freight from southern Illinois 
 and central Illinois is less than it was 
 years ago, but competitively it is true. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Competitive condi- 
 tions may change wonderfully, but 
 that certainly would be a wonderful 
 change, because today you have a 76- 
 cent rate based on the run-of-mine as 
 against a 49-cent rate on the same bas- 
 is; whereas, a few years back you had 
 a 90-cent rate in the north as against 
 a 16-cent rate in the south, in many 
 places. Coal was mined in the south- 
 ern part of this state for such low 
 rates at that time. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Not coal that went 
 north? 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Not longer than sev- 
 en years ago, when I first came into 
 this district, I remember hearing Mr. 
 Dalzell speak of it; that was the day 
 before we had conventions quite as 
 good as we have them today; and he 
 made the remark that as long as ooa,l 
 was mined in the southern part of the 
 state for such a low rate, it would be 
 suicidal to talk about even paying the 
 rate they were then paying in the 
 north. I will leave Mr. Ryan to finish 
 that argument, and answer the ques- 
 tion you asked about whether this coal 
 was shipped north or not. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I wish to give one or 
 
 two instances to shtow you that on the 
 contract coal we are on a competitive 
 basis with central Illinois. The Chi- 
 cago and Great Western railroad is lo- 
 cated where logically it should get all 
 of its coal in northern Illinois. It has 
 usually done so; they are nearest the 
 third vein and the Wilmington fields 
 of any coal fields and furnish their 
 own oars, and it is a hardship to send 
 them far from their own lines; yet 
 they found it advisable this year and 
 last to divide that business between 
 central and northern Illinois for pre- 
 cisely the same territory. They buy 
 some coal at Spring Valley; they buy 
 some coal at LaSalle; they buy some 
 at Springfield and that notwithstanding 
 that the price was scaled down this 
 last spring more than five cents per ton 
 without any decrease in the price of 
 labor, in the hope of holding that busi- 
 ness in the third vein and W^ilmlngton 
 fields where It belongs, and a part of 
 it at that price still went to Spring- 
 field. To illustrate further. The mines 
 of the Madison Coal Company are ship* 
 ping their coal into the northwest arid 
 introducing it altong the line of the 
 Illinois Central where coal from that 
 field was not known, and successfully 
 compete with us. We are not making 
 an attack on that district: you are 
 making an attack on our rate. 
 
 MR. ISEATT L.ADD: — I believe we 
 should appeal to the intelligence of 
 men and not to the passion and Ignor- 
 ailce of men. I have come here to 
 learn. The ojyerators say they are 
 selling their coal to the railroad Com- 
 panies at a price that will not warrant 
 them in paying the five cents we aslu 
 They claim that they come in direct 
 competition with the Hocking Valley. 
 It seems to me that is the only thing 
 that confronts us. They say on ac- 
 count of the competition of Hocking 
 Valley the railroads will not pay a 
 price that will enable them to pay the 
 miners more. I think if we can con- 
 vince the operators that they are not 
 warranted in making that statement, 
 our position will be well taken. If 
 they can convince the railroad com- 
 panies that we are right in our de- 
 mands they would get enough of a raise 
 in the price to warrant them in giving 
 us the price we ask. I don't know any- 
 thing about the Hocking Valley; I was 
 born and raised in Illinois. I can speaJc 
 for the southern part of the state and 
 for the northern part. They have ad- 
 mitted that they get good com,pensation 
 for their retail trade, but that the 
 contract coal has not compensated 
 them. I would like to have those who 
 are acquainted with the eastern field 
 enlighten me. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I will make one state- 
 ment. Our competition for these large 
 coal contracts for the railroads comes 
 from Illinois and Indiana; direct oogi- 
 petition from Illinois, and competition 
 from Illinois and Indiana coaJs in 
 Chicago, and only indirectly with any 
 eastern coal. Our competition on 
 
Appendix — February 27. 
 
 353 
 
 our domestic trade Is principally from 
 the east, and principally from Hocking 
 Valley. We make our money out of 
 our domestic coal. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Mr. Perry said 
 something about competition that you 
 complained of from the south at a time 
 when coal was mined there in places 
 for 16 cents a ton. I do not understand 
 that you disputed his statement. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— He did not dispute it, 
 he asked if that coal came north. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Did you not 
 complain about the competition that 
 came from Pana when they were min- 
 ing coal there for sixteen cents a ton? 
 That coal was shipped north on the 
 Illinois Central and came in direct 
 competition with your coal from Ogles- 
 by. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We did complain of the 
 prite, which was very low at Pana, 
 and at one of the three mines at Pana 
 on an estimated capacity of their pit 
 car, at the price per box. It had es- 
 caped my memory at that time. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— In 1897, when 
 I first went to Pana, we found men 
 mining coal there for sixteen cents a 
 ton for which they are now getting 49 
 cents a ton. 
 
 MR. BENT:— That condition did not 
 long exist there. It was one of the 
 causes of our 50-cent rate. 
 
 MR. RYAN: — The cause has been re- 
 lieved to some extent. 
 
 MR. BENT: — I have admitted that. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I have been informed 
 that Mr. Monser, of Wenona, comiplain- 
 ed of the same thing. 
 
 MR. BENT: — We cheerfully admit 
 that th^ competition from Pana was 
 the most ruinous in those days. We 
 admit that on the present scale we 
 are on a competitive basis with Pana, 
 and we are not hurting them nor they 
 us. It is a closed incident. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Did you not say that 
 if we brought up the southern field you 
 would advance us. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We did make a very 
 substantial advance, the one that was 
 agreed upon with your people at the 
 time, and we have kept step ever since 
 with advances in the state, and gave 
 you four cents besides. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— At the time they min- 
 ed coal at sixteen cents you paid nine- 
 ty cents a ton; today you are only pay- 
 ing 88% cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— We were on the screens 
 then, and are not now. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Certainly; you are 
 paying the equivalent of 88% cents. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Why cannot we close 
 this phase of the controversy by say- 
 ing that we are on a competitive basis, 
 now, and proving that we are by say- 
 ing that central Illinois and we share 
 in the same contracts, and that in or- 
 der to hold our share of a single con- 
 tract this year we scaled it down five 
 cents, and they still held their part of 
 the contract. The operators are not 
 complaining of their competition. When 
 any district of this state, let it be 
 
 Williamson county or any other, is 
 competing with other districts, the 
 operators will be the first, to feel it 
 and know it, and you will hear from us 
 about it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I believe the gentle- 
 man means to be true in that; but 
 when one part comes in competition 
 with another part, sometimes they sit 
 here and fall to say anything. 
 
 COLONEL SWEET:— Mr. Perry re- 
 marked a while ago that he consider- 
 ed it very unreasonable that a company 
 would expend such a large amount of 
 money as they have spent at Spring 
 Valley — I suppose he meant for such 
 elegant equipments and preparation 
 for a large tonnage at a new shaft — 
 if there was no money in the business. 
 I suppose Mr. Perry understands that 
 the Northwestern road encouraged 
 them to do that, and that they expect 
 to do a large portion of their business 
 in that field, and they practically have 
 a monopoly of that business so long 
 as Spring Valley Coal Company can 
 take care of the business; but the fact 
 is that an Indiana company is deliv- 
 ering two hundred thousand tons to 
 the Northwestern road in Chicago, and 
 other companies are . delivering one 
 hundred and fifty thousand tons of 
 coal. Mr. Dalzell is equipping this large 
 shaft with new improvements, double 
 cages and hoisting facilities by which 
 he can reduce his deadwork to a point 
 where he can take care of the North- 
 western business and stop this compet- 
 ition from the other fields. He is com- 
 pelled to do it, because the Northwest- 
 ern road demands that he shall do it. 
 He wants to stop this hauling coal 
 from Indiana and other places. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I can understand why 
 they should do that at some mine that 
 has already been sunk and in which 
 they have tied up thousands of dollars. 
 It is very reasonable to suppose that 
 such a state of affairs might exist, and 
 that they would be compelled to ex- 
 pend many more thousands of dollars 
 to equip that hole in the ground so 
 that they could get the coal out at the 
 least expense: but that does not ex- 
 plain why, at a time when things look 
 so dull, another hole should be put 
 there and equipped in a more costly 
 manner. 
 
 COLONEL SWEET:— There is a 
 market on the Northwestern road for 
 the coal from, that new shaft, and he 
 is guaranteed it. He is not guaranteed 
 it in the Ladd shaft. In my opinion 
 it is a mistake to expend the amount 
 of money he is expending there, be- 
 cause I don't think there is a market 
 there on the C. B. & Q. 
 
 MR. PERRY: — I was speaking of No. 
 E. I can readily believe he would put 
 down No. 5 under these conditions, but 
 why should he put money in the Ladd 
 mine — overfiowing with water — under 
 the same conditions, I don't understand 
 and pay $250,000 for that hole in the 
 ground. 
 
 MR. BENT:— The conditions at 
 
354 
 
 Appendix— February 27. 
 
 Spring Valley have been explained; 
 and the reason why they have an in- 
 creased market and are digging the 
 No. B shaft has been explained. Busi- 
 ness is going to be taken there from 
 the Northwestern road which does not 
 come from any other mines in this 
 state, but comes from falling mines in 
 Iowa. This same reasoiT has caused 
 the Northwestern road to reach the 
 Peoria district with a new line. Our 
 contention is that the peculiar condi- 
 tions that exist in Spring Valley cannot 
 be taken as a criterion for the rest of 
 northern Illinois, unless you wish to 
 see many mines abandoned and other 
 mines shrink. Even In the case of the 
 Northwestern road at Spring Valley, 
 where the relations are evidently so 
 intimate, it is a matter of personal 
 knowledge to me that they were com- 
 pelled to lower their price, in the face 
 of Mr. Dalzell protesting that the price 
 before givep was very close, and that 
 without any help from his miners. 
 That condition will be repeated, and 
 yet it is asked that we add five cents 
 more 'to the cost of our qoal. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— In the face of thalt he 
 went and put money in the Ladd shaft. 
 
 MR. BENT:— Does not the gentlemaji 
 know that the contract with the North- 
 western road and the Spring Valley 
 Goal Company is for ninety-r>ine years? 
 That railroad was built to SpPing Val- 
 ley at an enormous cost to the North- 
 western road under contract with the 
 Spring Valley Coal Company to furnish 
 it coal. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I don't see what the 
 Spring Valley Coal Conapany's sinking 
 shafts has got to do wl'th the principal 
 question. No one cain prevent Mr. Dal- 
 zell fronx spenidinig his money as he 
 wants to. At least I am not going to- 
 try it. In the Wilmiington' field we 
 have not Increased our tonnage. Some 
 new shafts have been sunk there; they 
 have been sunk to 'take the place of 
 old shafts that have been abandoned 
 and toi make up the output of shafts 
 whose ou4;put has been decreased by 
 the eight-hour day. In 1896 we lost a 
 large amount of tonnage; in 1897 we re- 
 gained a part tof it, and this year we 
 are about 113,000 tons short of our out- 
 pu)t of last year. You cannot always 
 keep your tonnage at one plaxje; but the' 
 fact that the Spring Valley Coal Com- 
 pany has made 'this enormous improve- 
 ment is the Spring Valley Coal Com- 
 pany's own business. 
 
 (A point of order was made that the 
 discussion was not on the quedtloin be- 
 fore the house.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Thte chair is 
 aware that this discussion is not ecxaot- 
 ly in line, but I thought it advisable 
 to give the widest latitude, and to al- 
 low everyone to say what he had to 
 say about the matter. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I think thaJt is right. 
 
 MR. ISEATT:— I will ask Mr. JVtit- 
 ohell if he thinks it would be to our 
 Inrterest to raise five cents on the ton 
 
 coal that lis brought into competition 
 with ours? 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is certainly 
 a hard question to answer, because I 
 dora't know what the railroad com- 
 panies are paying the operators for 
 coal. I do know what they are selling 
 coal for in the open market. I don't 
 attempt to claim that the mining price 
 ought to be based on the open market 
 price for coal. I have been of the 
 opinion for several years that the 
 prices of the thin vein coal of Illinois 
 were not high enough. I have believed 
 this from the fact that northern' Illi- 
 nois could pay more for nxining and 
 still sell their coal in competition with 
 anybody else. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I desire to 
 have someone designated to do the 
 voting for the miners. I would suggest 
 that Mr. Monaghan, of Braidwood, Mr. 
 Perry and Mr. Klang sit together and 
 agree upon the vote for the miners. 
 
 MR. MONAGHAN:— I would like to 
 be excused; I work for the smallest 
 mine in the northern' field. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— I dorft think 
 that cuts much figure; you understand 
 thfe question about to be voited on. . 
 
 (On the amendment offered by Mr. 
 Bent, the operators voted Aye, the 
 miiners voted No, and the amendmient 
 was declared lost.) 
 
 (On the original motion the operators 
 voted No, the miners volted Aye, and 
 the motion was declared lost.) 
 
 (Secretary McDonald read the next 
 clause, as follows: "Cross roads and 
 headings 10 9-10 cents extra.") 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I move that that 
 clause be adopted. (Seconded by Mr. 
 Perry.) 
 
 MR. RYAN:— Is that intended to 
 cover cross roads and headings dn both 
 the "Wilmington and third vein? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Yes, sir. Possibly the 
 way It is put in the clause it might be 
 made to apply to all mines. It was not 
 intended to. It should be cross roads 
 and headings in the long wall mines 
 of the northern fields. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We are not going 
 to drive those cross roads and head- 
 ings in the third vein field for nothing 
 any more. We have done it for several 
 years, and we are not going to do it 
 any more. ThaJt ten cents was taken 
 off us arbi'trarily by the operators at 
 thfe end of the strike of 1894. 
 
 MR. BENT:— I wish to say for the 
 third vein field that we are not going 
 to add to the cost of our coaJ. It is 
 purely an academical question whether 
 or noit a miner is at a disadvantage in 
 an entry as compared with a room. 
 The division of the mining rate we care 
 very little about, but we do care about 
 the cost of our coal on the carsv The 
 question as between us and the Wil- 
 mingiton field was settled long ago, and 
 not only the entry pr'ice was abandoned 
 at the time Mr. Mftchell speaks of; 
 but it has since been voluntarily rati- 
 fied by the miners and operators in 
 convention. I do not say that it was 
 
Appendix— February 27. 
 
 355 
 
 satisfactory to the miners or to the op- 
 erators, but it was ratified by them in 
 convention by mutual consent — "mutual 
 coercion." I thinlt they called it in 
 Indianapolis. It was said at the time 
 the entry price was abandoned — and we 
 did not know whether It was true or 
 not— 'thalt there would be trouble in 
 keeping good men in our entries If we 
 did not have this price. It was said 
 that St was essential that the entries 
 should have picked men in them. We 
 had to concede at 'the time the entry 
 price was given up that a miner had 
 the privilege of taking the branch in- 
 stead of remaining ini the enltry. That 
 right has been, preserved, and it ds a 
 right the men in entries do not uni- 
 formly avail themselves of. The 
 prophecy was not correct. On account 
 of a sentiment that existed for a few 
 weeks or months there was embarrass- 
 ment to the operaitors about it, but 
 there never has been' since. It was 
 said we could not keep good men in the 
 entries if we did not pay this price; 
 but we did keep them. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I dare say there 
 is not a miner from the third ve^in here 
 who will agree that he would not drive 
 a cross enltry if he could get anything 
 else to do. The miners in the third 
 vein 'take the first branch they can 
 get. I have driven entries myself, and 
 even if a man in an entry would get 
 ten cents more he would no^t be com- 
 pensated for the extra work he does. 
 The only reason the men stay there is 
 because those roads are kept higher 
 than the branches are; they keep the 
 entries brushed higher than a road 
 w^ill be that is driven up a considerable 
 distance. That is the only reason why 
 men stay in the cross entries in the 
 third vein. The third vein operators 
 ha\'e never asked for a price less than 
 five cents a ton lower than was Ipaid 
 in the Wilmington field. At the close 
 of the '94 s(trike the operators took off 
 the ten cents for entries in the thin 
 vein field; the operators in the Wil- 
 mington field continued to pay it. Bad 
 as they are, they have been fairer 
 than the third vein field in that re- 
 
 MR. BENT:— It was admitted in 1894 
 that ' the third vein coal was costing 
 more on the cars than the Wilmington 
 coal was. These things were discussed 
 by the operators, and for a long term 
 of years I have not heard a lisp about 
 It, and you all know that Mr. Taylor 
 and I are Intimate friends, competing 
 as we do for the same railroad con- 
 tracts, both supplying the Milwaukee & 
 St. Paul road a large amount of engine 
 coal, and it has never been alleged 
 that we could undersell them a cent. 
 Since the re-adjustment there in 1894 
 we claim that the third vein amiA Wil- 
 mington field are on an absolutely 
 competitive basis. We say we cannot 
 add to- the cost of our coal either In a 
 direct or indirect form. 
 
 MR. ISEATT:— I don't think the op- 
 erators goit any advantage by taking 
 
 lofE the ten cents a ton. In my little 
 experience in the nlorth it seems to me 
 it would be to their advantage to pay 
 a practical miner 20 cents extra on a 
 ton rather than to have a greenhorn go 
 into, the mline. It would not only be of 
 benefit to the operators but to the min- 
 ers that turn off those branches and 
 get into the places in order that they 
 might open out and load a little more 
 coal land load it easily. Some times 
 we have green miners and they enter 
 the mines, and they don't know much 
 about building, and in consequence of 
 putting in bad buildings the brushllng 
 begins to come down, and when it 
 comes down so far it causes something 
 to loiosen at the top, and thaJt top will 
 come down, and the miner will have to 
 watch for this when he goes along the 
 road. I honestly bellevei it would pay, 
 and pay well, to put a practical miner 
 into an entry and pay him ten cents a 
 ton lextra. I don't think those large 
 piles of dirt would be taken up and 
 spread over thie counltry if that was 
 done; Many times this cuts down the 
 wages of those that are employed In 
 the mines. They have to go home in 
 consequence of falls. They have one 
 fall after aniother. Sometimes after an 
 entry is started they have falls for a 
 week. I believe it would pay any op- 
 erator toi give' ten kients extra to a 
 pradtical miner to work the coal prop- 
 erly. If we did thaJt I don't tljink we 
 would- have miore than half the dirt 
 to be handled and sent out by the com- 
 pany men. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- A statement has been 
 made by Mr. Bent that they have no 
 trouble iin koepling eratrymen. I wish 
 to say that if yoU' did not have any 
 trouble las't year I had a lot of trouble 
 in trying to get a fellow out of an 
 enltry into a branch. It iseems as If 
 they might have hard work to get men 
 to drive cross roads because they will 
 not pay for it, and when they geit them 
 there they find it hard tO' get out. I 
 am referring now to Mr. Wyatt. 
 
 MR. BENT:— It is voluntary with 
 the mem? 
 
 MR. PERRY:- At Mr. Wyatt's mines 
 a miner went into turn an entry, and 
 when he turned a branch he desired 
 to take it, biit the boss would not per- 
 mit him to take it, he said he would 
 have to drive cross roads all the time. 
 
 MR. BENT:- What was the final de- 
 cision? 
 
 MR. PERRY:— It went so far the 
 men became -exasperated and tO'O'k it 
 on their shoulders and stopped the 
 mine, nnd it was s'topped for fifteen 
 minutes. They did try to force 
 that man to drive an entry and they 
 would not pay him for doing it. This 
 lis in direct conflict with our agreement. 
 Mr. Wyalttt did refuse, until he wrote 
 to Mr. Bent— 
 
 MR. BENT:— He asked me and I 
 told him that was the agree'ment. You 
 can always get your rights, and you 
 always do get them. Brother Perry. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— They ought to be able 
 
356 
 
 Appbndix— February 27. 
 
 to interpret the agreement. We don't 
 have any trouble in that way. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— How do you 
 vote? 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Before the operators 
 cast their vo"te I desire to say that in 
 the Wilmington field we do pay 10.9 
 cents for the cross roads coal, and it 
 is not the intention of the Wilmdngton 
 operators to change the oondition. We 
 don't expert to have the miiners change 
 them either. Coupled up, however, as 
 this question is here we will have to 
 vote against it. So far as the Wil- 
 mington field Is concerned, we expect 
 to pay for the cross roads coal as we 
 have in the past. 
 
 (On the motion to adopt the clause: 
 "Cross roads and headings 10 9-10 cents 
 extra," thfe operators voted No., the 
 miners voted Aye, and the motion was 
 declared lost.) 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— We have set- 
 tled the thick vein field In Blooming- 
 ton. 
 
 MR. TAY.L.OR:— I believe the Kang- 
 ley committee Is ready to report,' and 
 when they do we can vote on the first 
 section. 
 
 MR. KING:— Mr. Ruthbun has agreed 
 to take up that matter at Streator 
 in sub-distridt settlement. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I desire to say for 
 Mr. Mitchell and myself, who were call, 
 ed into their meeting, thait Mr. Rath- 
 bun made the statement that he con- 
 trolled oraly the Kangley mine at 
 Streator, and that the men would be 
 met aJt the time they made the sub- 
 district agreement at Streator, and he 
 would take up the places in the Kang- 
 ley mine which the men considered de- 
 ficient for adjustment, with the men of 
 the Starr Coal company and the offi- 
 cials of the United Mine Workers. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is correct: I 
 move that the scale at Streator, Clarke 
 City, Kangley, including Toluca and 
 Cardiff thick vein be 58 cents. 
 
 (The motion was seconded by Mr. 
 Perry). 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— That is made with 
 the understanding that the question of 
 the thin coal is to be taken up In 
 
 MR. 'TAYLOR: — IXWi't mislead this 
 committee. The statement made by Mr. 
 Rathbun was that he controlled only 
 the Kangley mine, and that he would 
 meet the men employed there by the 
 Starr Coal company and take up the 
 places the men considered deficient on 
 account of thin coal with them for ad- 
 justment, and that there should be 
 present officials of the United Mine 
 Workers. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— We are not in- 
 cluding the settlement at Barrackman's 
 mine In this motion. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— We have already 
 passed a moltdon that the Barraokman 
 c^>mpany take up the oondlClon with 
 their employes. 'We don't! want to mlake 
 a general rule that cani be dragged 
 into other fields or other shafts. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— I think there Is an- 
 
 other question in this first clause. To- 
 luca is in the same category that 
 Kang-ley is. It has low coal too. 
 
 MR. RYAN:— I take it for granted 
 that if the operators will consent to 
 take up this and admit something iS 
 wrong with lit, it will apply to their 
 competitors. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Mr. Taylor says the 
 only thing referred back are the two 
 shafts in question. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— So far. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— I stated that, and I 
 don't want any misunderstanding about 
 
 it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- We want an agree- 
 ment, if there is low coal in Toluca, 
 that will provide it can be taken up 
 too. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— That Is not contem- 
 plated lin this moltion at all. That 
 applied only to the Kangley shaft and 
 the particular places in the Kangley 
 shaft where the men claim there is 
 low coal. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— I move to amend 
 that we add the word, "Toluca" after 
 the word "Kangley." 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— That would 
 not be an' amendment to the motion as 
 it stands at this time. 
 
 MR. MITCHELL:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Duggan if he would be willing 
 to take up the scale for low coal if he 
 opens that vein, again. 
 
 MR. DUGG-AN:— The vein is idle and 
 is not working. I would not like to 
 take this up, because I don't know 
 where you would draw your limit. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Ini this Kangley de- 
 cision the delegates from Kangley shaft 
 and the operator who owns the shaft 
 discussed the i>articular case in ques- 
 tion, and after this discussion they 
 called us in to make the statements we 
 made here. It means just what It says, 
 neither a word one way or the other 
 different from what I have stated. 
 There was no discussion about Toluca 
 or any other place in that one decis- 
 ion. Another mdtion referred to the 
 Barrackman' Coal company, and the 
 matter was referred to the Barrackman. 
 Coal company and the men. The state- 
 ment was plain enough. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Mr. Perry and 
 yourself occupy practically the same 
 position. You both say you do not 
 want any misunderstanding. I think 
 Mr. Duggan could well afford to an- 
 swer Mr. Mitchell's question: directly 
 at this time. He only asks If he will 
 take up the question of low coal if he 
 sees fit to operate that vein at Toluca 
 during the coming year. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN:— I don't see any oc- 
 casion for bringing that up. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— We will have- 
 to bring it up if you see fit to again 
 open that vein. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— If he Isn't going to- 
 open up the mine again his agreeing 
 to take it back and have something 
 settled won't affect him if he never 
 works it. If he does intend to work it 
 
Appendix —March 7. 
 
 357 
 
 ■he had better have it settled now than 
 undertake to have it settled at that 
 time. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— We don't ask 
 to have a price fixed; we simply ask if 
 he will agree to take it up for adjust- 
 ment if he does open it. 
 
 MR. PERRY:— Will Mr. Duggan 
 agree to take the matter up with the 
 men employed there and the ofilcials 
 of the organization should he see fit 
 to operate that mine during the com/- 
 Jng- year. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN:— As long as the mine 
 is not working, I do not see why it 
 should affect the men now. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Are you pre- 
 pared to say you will not operate the 
 mine during the coming year. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN:— I don't know wheth- 
 er I shall or not. 
 
 MR. PERRY:- It seems strange to 
 me why he says it should not come up 
 here. They have brought in a scale 
 for that very vein. If he does not think 
 it should come up here, then It should 
 "be cut out of the operators' scale. You 
 ask us to make a scale for the vein, 
 and now tell us we ought not make one. 
 T don't understand it. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— We are wait- 
 ing for an answer from Mr. Duggan. 
 
 MR. DUGGAN:— I have answered 
 you, Mr. Ryan. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— The Barrackroan 
 mine is a local mine, and has extraor- 
 dinary conditions; they made a special 
 settlement with their men with the 
 oonsent of the operator of that district, 
 the Kangley mine is an old mine near- 
 ly worked out. Owing to the wonder- 
 ful change which they claim, but ' 
 Tvhich we don't admit, the operator 
 from that mine agreed to take up this 
 matter. We do not admit the broad 
 question; we do not admit your right 
 to make a man answer a question about 
 a vein he is not wiorking. Mr. Duggan 
 is perfectly right in refusing to make 
 any other answer at this time about 
 that vein: It is not being worked at 
 the present time, and he is perfectly 
 right in not answering. 
 
 MR. BEATTIB:— If that is not fair 
 Tsecause he is not working the mine, is 
 it fair for him to come here and ask 
 us to fasten a price on that vein of 
 •coal, so that in the middle of the next 
 scale year possibly he may open up 
 that mine and get the benefit of the 
 58-cent rate for all that coal. We only 
 ask him, in case he does open that mine 
 if be will be willing tO' take up the 
 xjuestion of low ooaJ in that vein. We 
 don't ask him to take it up unless he 
 opens the mine. If that is not fair, ij 
 is not fair for him to ask us to make a 
 scale. 
 
 MR. TAYLOR:— Mr. Duggan is not 
 asking to have a price made; it is al- 
 ready made. We are not making a 
 scale for that vein of coal. It is al- 
 ready established; we are simply ask- 
 ing to have it re-affirmed. This is not 
 a sub-district meeting. 
 
 CHAIRMAN RYAN:— Are you ready 
 to vote? 
 
 (On the motion the operators voted 
 Aye, the miners voted Aye, and the 
 motion was declared carried). 
 
 On motion the committee was ad- 
 journed to report to the scale commit- 
 tee at nine o'clock Friday morning. 
 
 MEETING OF THE MINERS AND 
 
 OPERATORS OF THE EIGHTH 
 
 DISTRICT. 
 
 Peoria, 111., March 7, 1902. 
 
 Minutes of meeting held to discuss 
 rate at Cable, Sherrard, Gilchrist, Wan- 
 lock and Blossomburg. 
 
 On motion, Mr. Justi was selected as 
 chairman and F. M. Guthrie as secre- 
 tary. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I trust you will be as 
 brief as possible in your statements, 
 in order that some plan can be agreed 
 upon as tO' manner of procedure. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 move you that Gilchrist, Wanlock, 
 Sherrard, Cable and Sylvis mine at 
 Carbon Cliff be sixty cents per ton, 
 with last year's conditions. (Motion 
 seconded by Mr. Cable). 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Mr. Chairman, I 
 move to amend that Gilchrist, Wanlock 
 and Sylvis mine at Carbon Cliff be six- 
 ty cents, the company to guarantee 
 the miners $2.25 per day of eight hours 
 work, net of expenses, same to be av- 
 eraged on the half month, the operator 
 to have the privilege of changing such 
 nf>iner to another average place if op- 
 erator desires and to put another min- 
 er in his place. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I second the mo- 
 tion. It seems to me that the proposi- 
 tion of the miners is a fair one and it 
 is also in line with last year's under- 
 standing. It says that "the mining 
 rate for Cable, Sherard and Blossom- 
 burg shall be sixty cents a ton and 
 that each miner shall be given a work- 
 ing place in rooms and entries by him- 
 self; that each miner shall have a sin- 
 gle turn except when drawing pillars, 
 when two men shall have one work- 
 ing place; and that suitable arrange- 
 ments be made toward the payment 
 foi' deficient work." I think that the 
 proposition, or the amendment offered 
 by the miners, is in line with last year's 
 understanding. The only difference is 
 that there was no price per day agreed 
 upon, but I do not believe there is any- 
 one that would expect a miner to work 
 at deficient work for less than $2.25 per 
 day. In the thick veins in Illinois, jn 
 the Belleville district, and in fact in 
 every thick vein in the state, a miner 
 will not agree to do deficient work for 
 any $2.25 a day; the only scale that we 
 have ever made, that is a day scale for 
 mining, has never been less than $2.70; 
 therefore, I think the proposition of 
 the miners for $2.25 a day for mining 
 co^'l in deficient places is a very reas- 
 
Appendix— March 7. 
 
 onable proposition and I cannot see 
 why there should be any objections to 
 it, especially when they have coupled 
 to that, giving the compajiy the right, 
 if they are dissatisfied with the work 
 of the men who employed to do this 
 work, to change them and give them 
 another place and put a man there 
 who they think is competent and qual- 
 ified to earn the wages we now ask. 
 
 MR. SCHULBR:— The amendment 
 reads Gilchrist, Wanlock and Sylvis 
 mine. Mr. Reynolds states that the 
 conditions last year were that suitable 
 arrangements should be made to pay 
 foi deficient work. Such is not the 
 case. There were no arrangements 
 made at those three places for anything 
 of the kind. The scale was sixty cents 
 and a contested scale at that. We con- 
 tested our scale last year. The condi- 
 tions you refer to were at Cable and 
 Sherrard, which were settled by the 
 commissioner who was appointed to 
 arrange a suitable price at that place. 
 There is nothing that states that low 
 coal should be deficient work. I do not 
 see from what standpoint that is tak- 
 en. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I have nothing to 
 go by only the agreement horeandifyoai 
 wish I will read the whole thing but I 
 do not believe that anyone here will 
 deny it. It starts "The following min- 
 ing prices were fixed in the manner 
 prescribed in the foregoing state agree- 
 ment, to- wit: 
 
 "Cable, Sherrard and Blossomburg. — 
 Messrs. Russell, Ryan and Beattie, rep- 
 resenting the United Mine Workers, 
 and Messrs. Justi, Duggan and Lukens, 
 representing the Illinois Coal Opera- 
 tors' association, met in Chicago on 
 April 25th, 1901, and agreed to the fol- 
 lowing, to become effective May 1st, 
 1901." 
 
 Then comes the agreement I read to 
 you first. I wish to say in advance to 
 you that the miners there, under this 
 agreement, I believe at Cable and Sher- 
 lard lost four or iive cents a ton; All 
 they secured out of that was the privi- 
 lege for the men to work single in 
 places, a privilege that men in the low 
 coal always enjoyed prior to that time. 
 The men working in low coal secured 
 nothing out of the loss of four cents 
 a ton only the promise of the company 
 to pay them for deficient work in low 
 coal. As I stated before, in the thick 
 veins, in our district, coal four feet 
 and under is deficient work and they 
 make a scale for it and it is no $2.25 
 for that kind of work either. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— It is a fact that at 
 the time that the commission first met 
 in Rock Island to consider the price for 
 Cable and Sherrard, the proposition 
 that was presented by the operators 
 was that the price should be sixty 
 cents per ton, the same as Gilchrist and 
 Wanlock. It came up before that 
 meeting, or that body of men that the 
 low coal was to be taken into consider- 
 ation. That is my understanding and 
 I was there through that whole meeting. 
 
 Now, then, as Mr. Schuler says, even 
 though it is the case that Cable and 
 Sherrard was to pay for this deficient 
 work, their place in that commission, 
 was not mentioned. We, in last year's 
 agreement, fetched Cable and Sherrard 
 down to the same price as Mr. Sohul- 
 er's mine. Then if Cable and Sherrard 
 has a right to pay for this deficient 
 work, as agreed in Chicago, they shou.d 
 do the same thing and we contend that 
 we have a right to ask for pay for that 
 low coal. There is no operator that is 
 working in that low coal but what says 
 that he is willing and has been paying 
 foi that low coal. If this be the case, 
 what objections has the operator got to 
 make a stipulated price for paying for 
 that low coal, that will be satisfactory 
 to both sides interested, instead of hav- 
 ing officers there on these grievances 
 in the coming year. This is the place 
 where it should be settled. It should 
 not be left unsettled and then have a 
 continual fight on this question during 
 1902. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— Mr. Picton repre- 
 sents that there has been a great bat- 
 tle carried on up in that country. I 
 am not aware of any officials being up 
 there to straighten out the question of 
 deficient work in one instance. I do 
 not see where there is going to be any 
 more trouble in 1902 than in 1901 and 
 when the commission met in Chicago 
 and Rock Island to settle this Cable 
 matter, all of the companies, and their 
 conditions were taken into considera- 
 tion and were based upon that Hue, and 
 those conditions exist today as they 
 did then. No changes have taken place. 
 We ^dmit we have low coal, but never 
 in the history of our mine has a scale 
 been made on that basis, and we think 
 fixing on us a fixed day rate, there are 
 as many deficient men as there are de- 
 ficient places and by accepting this con- 
 dition, we would naturally fix a rate 
 on ourselves for the poorer class of 
 work, which we could not get away 
 from. We have men up there that 
 oculd not earn $2.25 a day, under most 
 any condition, and I do not think It 
 would even be fair to yourselves, that w^e 
 should have a man in a place he 
 thought deficient and we would be ob- 
 liged to take him out because we did 
 not think he was doing his work as an 
 average man would do. We would 
 have to place a better man there and 
 that would work a hardship on him. 
 That would not be fair to the better 
 man. For that reason we do not want 
 a scale fixed upon us. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- If my memory 
 serves me right, a year ago the oper- 
 ators from Cable and Sherrard were 
 contending for the same price and con- 
 ditions of Gilchrist and Wanlock. The 
 miners did not see their way clear to 
 grant that and finally as a compro- 
 mise the matter was referred to this 
 commission. That commission decided 
 to reduce the rate of Cable and Sher- 
 rard down to or equal to Gilchrist and 
 Wanlock. They are both working un- 
 
Appendix — March 7. 
 
 359 
 
 der the same scale prices at present. 
 If that is a fact, that commission must, 
 at the same time, have thought that 
 the conditions at Cable and Sherrard 
 were also the conditions at G-ilchrist 
 and "Wanlo<;k. If they thought It was 
 fair for those men to be compensated 
 for deficient work in Cable and Shfr- 
 rard, since they wanted the same min- 
 ing price, and the operators were 
 there backing them up, I say they are 
 also entitled to the same conditions so 
 far as deficient work is concerned, as 
 settled fo'r Cable and Sherrard. There 
 is one difference between us and that , 
 is for a better understanding as to 
 what this price shall be. You have 
 agreed they shall be paid for deficient 
 work but you have no understanding 
 as to what that price shall be. We be- 
 lieve the price we have offered is rea- 
 sonable, more so than in any other dis- 
 trict in the state of Illinois. In our 
 district, the Belleville district, there is 
 no scale for mining no I'efes than $2.70 
 per day and we do not pick out men 
 to do the work. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— In order to facilitate 
 the work of this committee, it seems 
 to me proper to state that the joint 
 scale committee desires further infor- 
 mation, as I stated a few minutes ago. 
 The opinion was expressed by the 
 Chair and by the representatives of 
 miners and operators that there was 
 not sufficient information before the 
 joint scale committee, with reference to 
 what had been paid to certain men for 
 deficient work, and my understanding 
 of the instructions of the committee 
 were that the representatives of the 
 miners and operators from these differ- 
 ent fields should get together and 
 should get more definite and specific • 
 information to present to the scale 
 committee in order that they can deter- 
 mine what action Is to be taken. 
 
 MR. SCHULiER:— That is exactly the 
 point. Mr. Reynolds stated that these 
 conditions at Cable and Sherrard would 
 necessarily equal those at Gilchrist and 
 Wanlock. There were other conditions 
 at Cable and Sherrard; that was not 
 the case at our place. Sixty cents was 
 the price fixed for mining. Tou make 
 a claim there were miners who have 
 not received pay for deficient work but 
 we have no evidence here that anycne 
 has been deficient or not paid for that 
 work. That is what we are trying to 
 bring out. If they have not been paid, 
 they should have been, and I do mot 
 know of any evidence here that Wan- 
 lock and Gilchrist or Cable and Sher- 
 rard, that has proven that, and in or- 
 der to sustain your theory, you ought 
 to have something to show that before 
 you can make demands. 
 
 MR. PICTON:— In reply to that gen- 
 tleman who just spoke. In the first 
 statement he made, he said that there 
 had been no officers called to his imine 
 in regard to low coal. I want to state 
 that on the 11th day of February of 
 this year, I was called to his mine on 
 the low coal question, and it was stat- 
 
 ed there before Mr. Gilchrist, by the 
 pit committee, that the way they had 
 been paying men for working this low 
 coal was by giving them single work 
 and this was not disputed by Mr. Gil- 
 christ. So far as the gentleman's 
 statement is concerned-, probably not 
 to his knowledge we had been called 
 there, but I was called there on that 
 case. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— What has that 
 reference to, entry driving? 
 
 MR. PICTON:— Room work. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— I will state for the 
 benefit of this committee that we have 
 always, more or less, given single 
 places when it got that one man could 
 do better than two. In four foot coal, 
 one man can do better than two and 
 when the coal gets low, we single them 
 up. We claim they receive good pay 
 and there is no deficiency. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS;— I believe" Mr. 
 Armstrong has a statement to make. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— As I stated in 
 the convention, or the joint committee 
 room there, we did not oome here with 
 statements to show anything concern- 
 ing this deficient work, and the matter 
 of taking up statements of the com- 
 pany to prove that we have deficient 
 work and have not been paid for it, it 
 is almost useless, and I stated in there 
 the reason why. The facts in the case 
 are this, we have not been credited 
 with the number of days we actually 
 worked. The first I knew of anything 
 about these records was a year ago 
 this winter. We had 165 men working 
 at Sherrard, at our place; that was the 
 estimate; and the report of Mr. Lee, I 
 believe, showed an average number of 
 something like 130. Was it not? 
 
 MR. LEE:— Yes, sir. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— That was leav- 
 ing thirty-five men out of that mine all 
 winter through and I began to wonder 
 where they kept these men. They *ere 
 not on the streets and not at home 
 and after making an investigation, we 
 found were In the mines with the 
 exception of five or six: We natur- 
 ally expected a very few oi them would 
 be out. They were In these bad places 
 and loaded no coal perhaps, and perhaps 
 loaded one car of oaal and they were 
 marked absentfromthemines. Now, this 
 being the fact, it is worse than use- 
 less to try to show statements that we 
 have not made a reasonable d^y's 
 wage. If they want to continue this 
 committee and allow me to goi hom,e, 
 I can bring a number of statements 
 that will be so far below the one I 
 have heard here, that I think it would 
 convince this committee that we have 
 not been paid for deficient work • at 
 that place. If that is the kind of evi- 
 dence you want, I can produce state- 
 ments that will prove we have not 
 been paid. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — Do you wish to present 
 your statements? 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— I have them 
 here. They can look over them if they 
 wish. The object of bringing these 
 
360 
 
 Appendix — March 7. 
 
 statements here was ta show the dif- 
 ference between this high and low cool 
 there. There was three months' state- 
 ments here, May, June and July, which 
 shows the gross earnings of $66.44; I 
 have a statement here showing the ex- 
 penses of the miner In producing this. 
 They were, I believe $27 within a few 
 cents of that. I earned $120.14 In the 
 month of January, In an average place, 
 in that mine, the mine expenses, as 
 near as I recollect, I have a statement 
 some where, was $30.80 and the object 
 in producing these statements was to 
 show the difference between a good and 
 a bad place. I thought this proposition 
 would be presented by the operators, 
 they would say. If I fetched it, they 
 would say it was the man, he could 
 not do any more. I brought the two 
 to show^ if I had a fair place I could 
 earn a reasonable day's wage. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— You had in your 
 statement, the other day, I think where 
 you showed these expenses of $27 for 
 May, June and July, you stated 36 days 
 worked. Mr. Chairman, I think If 
 these gentlemen want to present these 
 accusations that they have not been 
 treated fairly, they should have an op- 
 portunity to do so. "With reference to 
 this particular case, which has been 
 cited, Mr. Armstrong's figures are, I 
 think, correct as to the amount of 
 m'omey that he earned in June and 
 July. In the month of May our mine 
 worked 15 days and according to our 
 statement, to our figures, which he says 
 th*y would be willing to take in mak- 
 ing this investigation, we had hijn cred- 
 ited with but eight days; his gross 
 earnings at $24.80 and his average daily 
 gross earnings $3.10. I might Include 
 in the $24.80, $1.85 for a roll; in the 
 month of June the mine worked 12 
 days and according to our records Mr. 
 Armstrong worked 10 days. His gross 
 earning^ were $27.66; his average dally 
 gross earnings were $3.76; In July the 
 mine worked 9 days; it was being shut 
 down a large part of the month as 
 they were re-timbering the shaft and 
 some company work had to be done. 
 In July we, credited Mr. Armstrong 
 with four days' work; his gross earn- 
 ings were $13.98; his average daily 
 gross earnings $3.49; I took the figures, 
 I got the other day from this state- 
 ment but which I estimated Mr. Arm^ 
 strong, In which he says showed his 
 expenses for that period of three 
 months at about $27. I find, after mak- 
 ing the deductions for the expenses 
 that in the month of May, the eight 
 days he worked, he averaged $2.32 net; 
 June $2.82 net and July $2.60 net. I 
 did not carry out all the fractions but 
 I consider the figures are corrfect with- 
 in a few cents. In the months of June, 
 July and August, our mine worked 36 
 days. We credited Mr. Armstrong 
 with having worked 22 days. One of 
 the days we credited him with work- 
 ing was on the 28th day of May when 
 he sent 1900 weight of ooal. They 
 claim we did not count the man unless 
 
 he mines three tons of coal. That was 
 one of the days I counted. In first 
 making up these figures, Mr. Lee omit- 
 ted that day, but I told him we wanted 
 it for the benefit of the committee and 
 I counted that day in. Our records do 
 not show that Mr. Armstrong worked 
 at all during the first fourteen days of 
 May and if our recollections serve us 
 correctly, he was away at that time. I 
 bring up these figures because I think 
 Mr. Armstrong must be mistaken in 
 some of the statemens he makes as to 
 the amount of money he was able to 
 get there, and while I have no way to 
 show that he was wrong. It Is hard to 
 see how he could have 25 cents a day 
 expenses in May, June and July. I 
 want to say that from May until the 
 eighth of November, 1901, Mr. Arm- 
 strong was working in the same place, 
 I do not remember the number, and 
 on the 8th of November he was chang- 
 ed to another place In which he still 
 is. He worked In that place including 
 December and up to the present time 
 including this present month, of which 
 he speaks. I speak of this, so that the 
 committee will not have the Impres- 
 sion that he was changed to this place 
 at the beginning of January, when he 
 earned $120.14. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— I would like to 
 ask Mr. Cable if he did not make a 
 mistake in stating the number of days 
 worked in June; I think you stated ten 
 days and that I drew' $27 I think it was. 
 I think it was an average of $3.76 per 
 day. Is that correct? 
 
 MR. CABLE: — I have not re-figured 
 it. My figures should be $2.76 In the 
 month of June. As to the number of 
 days, I can only make It ten. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— Mr. Cable's re- 
 marks concerning the number of days 
 worked by me, I want to call your at- 
 tention to the fact that he admits on 
 a certain day I had 1900 weight of 
 coal and Mr. Lee had not given me 
 credit for that day's work but In or- 
 der to give me the benefit of an extra 
 day's work as I had claimed more than 
 their books show, he .added It. That Is 
 one of the points I wish to make, they 
 did not keep a correct account of the 
 number of days worked by the miners 
 and It is a fact that if they wish to 
 continue this committee until I go 
 home and return, I can bring evidence 
 to prove to the committee this is a 
 fact. 
 
 MR. CABLE:- As to the day of 
 which Mr. Armstrong speaks, when we 
 made up these figures, we were work- 
 ing together g,nd from the check sheets, 
 it appeared that this was a car that 
 came out in the morning of that day 
 and it was suggested that we should 
 not count it, as it was the assumption 
 that it was coal loaded and made ready 
 the day before. But to give him the 
 benefit of the doubt, we counted it. Mr. 
 Lee agreed with me that we would be 
 sure to be fair to do that, than we 
 would be to eliminate it, but it was 
 
Appendix — March 7. 
 
 361 
 
 ■suggested that it ought not to be 
 ■counted. 
 
 MR. ESSEX:— We ■want to say on 
 Ijehalf of Mr. Armstrong, that Mr. Lee 
 himself, fwo years ago, ■went to the 
 state convention and he had the out- 
 put of the mine some thousand tons, I 
 ■do not remember just ■what it was, and 
 he had the number of men that done 
 that ■work 135' and at that time ■we had 
 165 men, I think. I asked Mr. Lee ho^w 
 It come that there ■was 135 miners had 
 the average of the output of the mine, 
 ■which made $4.70 a day. He had the 
 records in his pocket and he ■wanted to 
 ■produce them. I asked him ■what be- 
 came of the other 35 men ■working In 
 that mine. He said those ■were men 
 ■who ■worked every day, 135. He said 
 "Where the men loads two or three cars 
 a day, we do not give hiin credit for 
 that. I said to him that those men 
 have got credit for 135 men for the 
 whole output of that mine for the last 
 "year and he said yet, they had. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I think the figures of 
 Tvhlch Mr. Essex speaks must be fig- 
 ures of the average daily earnings of 
 the mine. If the mine workedl 20 daya 
 and a man worked nineteen, it would 
 not be fair to give him 20 days and 
 ■count him twenty days. If a man works 
 ten days out of twenty, we must take 
 the number of days h6 T^orks and the 
 amount of earnings he makes, and di- 
 vide the earnings by the number of 
 'days worked to average his earn'ngs, 
 to get a daily average of the men in 
 the mine. You would not, if you had a 
 mine with ten men and one man work- 
 ed one day and two men ■worj^ed ten 
 days and seven men worked 20 days, 
 you would' not consider him when you 
 went to ascertain the average daily 
 wages of those men that have all work- 
 •ed 20 days. Tou count one man one time 
 and two men three times, seven in all 
 and seven men ten times making 70 or 
 77 days worked. Use that 77 as divis- 
 or for the full amount of earnings to 
 ascertain the average daily earnings. 
 
 MR. ESSEX:- Mr. Lee, you would 
 not think it fair to give 135 men credit 
 for what 160 men did. 
 
 MR. LESS:- Not if 160 men did It. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I want to make it 
 ■plain, if these gentlemen want time to 
 bring these cases against us, we are 
 willing to give it to you. It would be 
 unfair if we did not want to give it to 
 them. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — Tou have heard the 
 statement of Mr. Cable, that if you de- 
 sire time to bring further testimony 
 and to bring in witnesses to present 
 further testimony, we have no disposi- 
 tion to oppose you. 
 
 MR. ARMSTRONG:— The figures that 
 the operators at Cable and Sherrard 
 produce here, show that every man is 
 making from $2.50 to $3 a day clear 
 money and in the face of that, if it be 
 a fact, I do not see why they should 
 refuse to accept a proposition offered 
 "by the miners to pay them $2.25 a day 
 "When they are compelled to work in 
 
 these places where they are unable to 
 earn a reasonable day's wage. If all 
 of their figures show that the men of 
 that mine never come that low, there 
 certainly would be no trouble come out 
 of an agreement of that kind. 
 
 MR. CABLE: — Our principle objec- 
 tion to accepting the proposition of Mr. 
 Armstrong is that we do not want to 
 put a premium on poor work or put 
 ourselves in a position where we have 
 to do so. 
 
 MR. ESSEX:— If it does not suit you 
 to pay me to work in a place you could 
 take me out but I do not understand 
 that you have a right to take a good 
 man and put him in another place and 
 work a hardship on him. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— That would indicate 
 to give up the management of our 
 mines and we would not consider any 
 proposition to do it. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I would like to state, 
 we are willing to go ahead with the 
 consideration of this question as long 
 as desirable to do so, but I would like 
 to remark again that what the joint 
 ■ scale committee, who is to decide this 
 whole matter, desires to know is more 
 definite information in regard to the 
 charges made in the committee rocm 
 of the failure of the companies to prop- 
 erly pay for deficient work. 
 
 (Adjourned until 1:30 p. m). 
 
 AFTERNOON SESSION. 
 
 MR. CABLE:^I made a misstate- 
 ment this morning which I desire to 
 correct. "When I made the statement 
 of the fact that the net earnings of Mr, 
 Armstrong for the months of May, 
 June and July were $2.32, $2.87 and 
 $2.60 net per day, respectively, for the 
 three months, I said that tliese figures 
 were arrived at by taking Mr. Arm- 
 strong's own figures as to what his 
 expenses were. The statement was not 
 correct. I had the gross earnings fig- 
 ured for the year and the net earnings 
 I put opposite those three months in 
 light pencil mark. In figuring the net 
 earnings, we use what we thought his 
 expenses might possibly be in the 
 neighborhood of fifteen cents. I can- 
 not find the figures I used exactly. I 
 do not care to make a misrepresenta- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- 1 believe Mr. 
 Guthrie has a proposition here. It 
 seems the one presented this morning 
 did not satisfy the operators and we 
 are going to submit this one tO' you 
 and see if it suits you. 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— We beg leave to 
 submit the following proposition: 
 
 "Where the miner, on account of low 
 coal, or other deficient work cannot 
 earn $2.25 per day, the company agrees 
 to make said mijier up to this rate, this 
 to be based on a fair day's ■work; and 
 be it further understood that in the 
 event of other places being started or 
 where vacant places are to be filled, the 
 miner working in deficient work shall 
 receive the preference, in said place 
 or places, if he so' desires." 
 
 I 
 
362 
 
 Appkndix — March 7. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— I do not think that 
 changes the point any. It is just put- 
 ting it in different language. It means 
 the same; you have only made it bet- 
 ter for your own conditions. I think 
 we are getting away from the question 
 entirely; just as Mr. Justi said, the 
 joint scale committee wants evidence 
 to show that the earnings that have 
 been made at these mines have not 
 been living wages or a fair wage. I 
 think that is the point under consider- 
 ation. The language of this new reso- 
 lution just means the same thing as 
 before. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— This morning, 
 there was not an operator here that 
 denied but what they thought it was 
 right and fair that they ought to pay 
 for deficient work. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— Every operator in 
 the state thinks that. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I think so too, 
 outside of your district. I am not ac- 
 quainted with your district and only 
 have the evidence received here this 
 morning. Why do you object to every 
 plan by which we can agree what is 
 fair for this deficient work. This agree- 
 ment In regard to Cable and Sherrard, 
 carried with it the right of the miner 
 tO' be paid for deficient work, and as I 
 said before, when you was fighting for 
 that rate a year ago you was fighting 
 for the same prices and conditions that 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock enjoyed. I say, 
 under that decision, we certainly ' have 
 a right to be paid for deficient work 
 and the only question I can see for this 
 committee to decide now, is by 
 what method can this be done. We 
 have no system now, none at all 
 and it seems to be absolutely in the 
 hands of the company whether they 
 shall pay for this work or not. We do 
 not • consider that fair, since we are 
 doing business jointly. If it is a one- 
 sided affair, we object. All we ask is 
 some method, anything that is agree- 
 able, so that we can go home and take 
 the cases up and see that our people 
 are compensated for that class of labor. 
 If you have any proposition tO' make 
 that will cover the case, that is any- 
 thing like fair, we are ready to ac- 
 cept, 
 
 MR. SCHULER: — I do not under- 
 stand that this committee was appoint- 
 ed to settle any question in regard to 
 Gilchrist and Wanlock and there are 
 conditions imposed on Cable and Sher- 
 rard that you wish to fasten on all 
 mines up there. We do not consider 
 that is right. I think the motion I 
 made will cover every point. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— According to the 
 state agreement, this question, should 
 be referred tO' the sub-district for ad- 
 justment. It is the rule in every sub- 
 district in the state of Illinois. Every 
 one of these cases are taken up and 
 settled. You deny the right to take it 
 back to the sub-district and have same 
 adjusted. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— As to the scale. We 
 have sub-district agreements and we 
 
 comply with them. We have not vio- 
 lated any of them. It Is the quesUon 
 of arriving at a scale. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Are, you willing 
 to take it back to the sub-district? 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— It belongs here. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— I want to have a 
 better understandiing in the agreement 
 entered into. We do not want to dis- 
 cuss this and say we will do this or 
 that. When a case comes up before 
 the pit committee and the mine mana- 
 ger, the mine manager says there is 
 nothing in this agreement. W^hat we 
 want is to have it in black and white 
 so we will know where we are at. We 
 go up against things where there Is no 
 record and they say it is not in the , 
 agreement. We are here to gSt It In 
 the agreement. 
 
 MR. CABLE: — W^e ore more or less 
 out of order. It seems to me accusa- 
 tions have been made and the gentle- 
 man on the other side of the question 
 has started out to prove the accusa- 
 tions or show facts that would sub- 
 stantiate them and I understand we 
 are here from the sub-scale committee 
 to hear what they are. WTiile what 
 Mr. Beattie says may or may not be all 
 right, but I think we are off the jmlnt. 
 
 MR. ESSEX: — As far as having 
 proof, only the mien themselves can 
 give that. I could not produce any of 
 that, only what they have told me, be- 
 cause as I said before we had 
 men who would leave our mine be- 
 fore they would be compelled to woiJc 
 in this low coal and not get paid for 
 the deficient work. We have had men 
 to leave on that laccount. I say we 
 can get evidence sworn to before tt. 
 justice of the peace. That was the 
 reason they left. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— For the benefit of all, 
 the instructions from the scale com- 
 mittee seem to me too plain. WTiat 
 they desire is more information in re- 
 gard to the charges that the men were 
 not paid last year for deficient work, 
 as provided in the agreement reached' 
 by the commission which m^t in Rock 
 Island and afterwards in Chicago. 
 
 MR. ESSEX:— As far as Mr. Lee- 
 saying what deficient work is, I say 
 they were paid under that. We do not. 
 deny that. The question is and he 
 says it is so and that we have nothing 
 to say about it, he places deficient 
 work at two and half feet and under. 
 W^e are here to make am agreement 
 so we will have something- to say as 
 to what deficient work is. If they have 
 agreed to it, I am satisfied. The ques- 
 tion is to get it down in black and 
 white so we will have something to say. 
 The settlement in Chicago did give us 
 that right. It was to be taken up and 
 we was to have the right to decide with- 
 Mr. Lee and Mr. Cable what that defi- 
 cient wloTk wias and what was to be 
 paid for it. We have never had that 
 settlemerrt yet and for that reason we 
 worked one year and lost four cents 
 on the ton, for the conditions we ex- 
 pected to get last year and we did not. 
 
Appendix — March 7. 
 
 363 
 
 get them yet. We are only asking for 
 something fair. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I want to say, I cer- 
 tainly do iiiot pretend to state that I 
 doubt his word and I "would not make 
 such a statement in regard to his work, 
 but I do mot state that he might not 
 be mistaken. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— There is no charge on 
 either side. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— As to the men not 
 being satisfied with their wages. That 
 might or might not be true at any 
 time. It is a question of whiait they 
 would be sartdsfled with. Simply be- 
 cause a man gets 29% inches or 30% 
 inches or thirty inches of coal is no 
 reason why he should or should not 
 be allowed money for deficient work. 
 If it is even thicker, then that is not 
 any good reason why he should be al- 
 lowed it. I do noit think the height of 
 the coal should cut any figure at all. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:- 1 want, to ask, if 
 it was understood when' this agreetoent 
 was s'igned, that the miner hiad any 
 right or voice in the making of the 
 price for this deflclenit work. When 
 the agreement was reached, the ques- 
 tion was asked whether the Cable and 
 Sherrard companies would pay for 
 deficient work and Mr. Cable, as I re- 
 member it, answered that it would. 
 
 MR. CABLE: — I have the m'inutes of 
 the meetings here. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I will take your 
 word, Mr. Justi. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I was going to say, 
 Cable amswei'ed that they w^ould con- 
 tinue to do what they had been doing 
 in the past. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— According to this 
 agreement, it says: "Two men shall 
 have one working place and that suit- 
 able arrangements shall be made for 
 the payment of deficient work^" Then 
 what does the state agreement say in 
 regard to that. It is a fact since we 
 have been doing business jointly, under 
 a certain clause ini our agreement, if 
 the miners disagreed about any clause 
 in the agreement or had any disagree- 
 ment in the mine about working places, 
 there was a certain method provided 
 in the agreement under which this 
 matter should be taken up. That being 
 the case, if a miner who has deficient 
 work and is dissatisfied wiith the price 
 being paid him, would he have a right 
 to object and take that- matter up as 
 we would any other matter under the 
 slaite agreement? 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— Your (Juestlon, Mr. 
 Reynolds, is answered in the 13th clause 
 of the state agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— A part of that as. 
 
 MR. JUSTI: — I would suggest, as a 
 possible help in this matter, inasmuch 
 as the action of the commission, which 
 met lin Rock Island and afterwards in 
 Chicago, is brought into this discussion, 
 that the minutes of those two meetings 
 be read and made a part of this record. 
 
 (Records of the meetings of Rock 
 Island and Chicago were pr^ented by 
 Mr. Cable, as follows:) 
 
 MINUTES. 
 
 April 8th, 1901. 
 , Committee appointed pursuant to 
 resolution in Springfleild to' consider 
 Cable, Sherrard and Blossomburg rate, 
 met at Rock Island in Harper house, 
 Apriil 8th, 1901. 
 
 Present— W. R. Russell, W. D. Ryan 
 and James Beattie for miners; and 
 Herman Justi, R. Duggan and F. W. 
 Lukens for operators; also miners, Mr. 
 Picton and Mr. Horton; and operators, 
 Mr. Schuler, of Gilchrist; Mr. Lee, of 
 Sherrard, and Mr. Cable, Rock Island, 
 emd J. J. Hart. 
 
 Meeting organized upon motion by 
 Mr. Justi (duly seconded). Mr. W. R. 
 Russell, chairman; J. J. Hart, secre- 
 tary. 
 
 Mr. Schuler, upon request of Mr. 
 Justi, through Chair, made a statement 
 of conditions at Gilchrist and Wan- 
 lock. 
 
 Moved by Mr. Ryan and seconded by 
 Mr. Beattie: 
 
 "That niining rate at Cable and Sher- 
 rard remain as at present (64 cents) for 
 the present scale year ending March 
 31, 1902." 
 
 Moved to amend by Mr. Lukens, sec- 
 onded by Mr. Duggan: 
 
 "That the rate at Cable and Sherrard 
 for the present scale year (ending- 
 March 31, 1902) be fixed at sixty cents.'' 
 
 "Vote — Operators, Aye; miners, Nay. 
 Lost. 
 
 Then on original m'otion: Operators, 
 Nay, Tiiiners Aye. IjOSt, 
 
 It was then moved by Mr Lukens 
 and seconded by Mr. Duggan: 
 
 "That the miner's take up the bottoni 
 at Sherrard, Cable and Blossomburg, 
 and that such be included in the min- 
 ing price." 
 
 Point of order by Mr. Beattie: "That 
 the "bottom digging was settled in the 
 8th sub-district meeting.'' 
 
 Chair rules point of order was not 
 well taken and not sustained. No ap- 
 peal. 
 
 On a vote on the motion: Operators 
 voted Aye; miners. Nay. Motion lost. 
 
 Then moved by Mr. Duggan (Beattie 
 seconded) that we now adjourn' until 
 9 a. m. April &th. 
 
 Operators, Aye, miners. Aye. Carried 
 9 a. m. April 9th, 1901. » 
 
 All present except Mr. Schuler. 
 
 Mr. Rvan called attention of com- 
 mittee to the fact that the 8th sub- 
 district had referred to this commit- 
 tee the matter of drivers' wages and 
 c-onditions governing, and had electeu 
 Messrs. Schuler and Lee as a special 
 committee to present thereto' and at- 
 tend thereat such question. 
 
 Mr. Lukens moved and Mr. JusH 
 seconded: 
 
 "That in veiw of Mr. Schuler's ab- 
 sence this matter be defered tempor- 
 ar-ily for information." 
 
 Vote thereon: Operators, Aye; min- 
 ers. Aye. Carried. 
 
 It was moved by Mr i^ukens (Mr. 
 Duggan seconding.) 
 
364 
 
 Appendix— March 7. 
 
 "That the price of mining at Cabte. 
 Sherrard and Blossomburg, be slixty 
 •cents a ton for present scale year end- 
 ing March 31, 1902." < 
 
 Upon vote: Operators, Aye; miners, 
 Nay. Lost. 
 
 Then moved by Mr. Lufcens (Mr. 
 Duggan seconding). 
 
 "That there be no change In the pres- 
 ent method now in effect at Cable and 
 Sherrard mines, regarding the timber- 
 ing of the working places: where cross 
 bars are paid for, the price shall be 
 •30 cents each when properly set." 
 
 Moved to amiend by Mr. Picton, sec- 
 onded by Mr. Ryan: 
 
 "That after the words 'properly set' 
 there be inserted the words 'as provid- 
 ed for In the state agreement.' " 
 
 Vote on the amendment was: Oper- 
 ators, Nay; miners, Aye. Lost. 
 
 "When recurring to the origiinal motion 
 the operators voted Aye; miners Aye. 
 Carried. " 
 
 Moved by Mr. Lukens, seconded by 
 Mr. Duggan: 
 
 "That the price named in the 8 th sub- 
 ■district agreement for 'rolls,' 'horse- 
 backs,' 'clay S'llps,' etc., .'hall include 
 the taking down of the roll or of going 
 through a horseback or clay slip, at 
 and in Cable and Sherrard mines." 
 
 Adjourr'm'.'nt moved bv Mr Ryan 
 and seconded by Mr. Jiisti, until after 
 luncheon. Carried. 
 
 Reoonvewed. All present. 
 
 It was asked and grarjied that the 
 following should be added to the mo- 
 tion and regarded as part of the ori- 
 ginal thereof, that after the words 
 "Sherrard minies" the words be added 
 "except Ithat nothing shall be paid for 
 rolls, ' when pillars are being drawn un- 
 less some shall come down after being 
 properly propped; in which case the 
 Sth sub-district rate shall be paid.!' 
 
 The amended motion was unanimous- 
 ly considered as the original motion 
 and upon vote the operators voted 
 Aye; miners. Aye. The motion as 
 changed was carried. 
 
 Moved by Mr. Lukens (seconded by 
 Mr. Duggan) . 
 
 "That the mining rate of Cable, Sher- 
 rard and Blossomburg, shall be sixty 
 cents a ton and that each miner shall 
 Td© given a working place in rooms anili 
 entries by himself, and that each min- 
 er shall have the single turn except 
 when drawing pillars, when two "men 
 shall have one working place." 
 
 Moved by Mr. Justi (seconded by Mr. 
 3eattie) : 
 
 "That action on resoluttom just offer- 
 ed be deferred until a future session 
 of this committee to be held 5n Chi- 
 cago, previous to May 1st, exact time 
 and place to be determined upon by 
 Mr. Russell and Mr. Justi. 
 
 Vote: Operators, Aye; miners. Aye. 
 ■Carried. 
 
 Moved by Mr. Ryan (seconded by 
 Mr. Lukens) : 
 
 "That meeting do now adjourn to 
 meet in Chicago upon the call of 
 Messrs. Russell and JusU on such date 
 
 and at such place as they designate; 
 and that Messrs. Lee and Schuler at 
 such meeting present for consideration 
 the question of drivers' conditions, re- 
 ferred them by the 8th sub-dlstrlct 
 meeting at Peoria." 
 
 Vote: Operators, Aye; miners, Aye. 
 Carried. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 J. J. HART, Secretary. 
 
 In accordance with the adjournment 
 on April 9th, the committee appointed 
 to consider the mining scale at Cable, 
 Sherrard and Blossomburg met in the 
 commissioner's office, Chicago, at 1 p. 
 m., April 25th, 1901. 
 
 •There were present the full commit- 
 tee and Mr. Russell presided; there 
 were) also present Messrs. Schuler, 
 Armstrong and Rushbach. 
 
 The following motion, which was laid 
 'over from the meeting April 9th, was 
 before the meeting for consideration: 
 
 "That the mining rate of Cable, Sher- 
 rard and Blossomburg, shall be ^ixty 
 cents a ton and that each myier shall 
 be given a workijig place in rooms and 
 entries by himself and that each min- 
 er shall have a single turn except when 
 drawing pillars, when two men shall 
 have one working place." 
 
 The motion was discussed at some 
 length and at 2:35 p. m. the meeting 
 adjourned upon motion' of Mr. Justi, 
 seconded by Mr. Duggan, to meet at a 
 later hour as arranged by Chairman 
 Russell and Commissioner Justli. 
 
 The committee met in McCoy's hotel- 
 at' 8 p. m., with the same attendance 
 as at the previous meetings, and in 
 addition the other members of the 
 miners' state executive board. 
 
 The pending motion was read to the 
 meeting and it was moved by Mr. Ryan 
 and seconded by Mr. Beattie, to amend 
 the S'ame by adding "and that suitable 
 arrangements be made toward the pay- 
 ment for deficient work." This clausie 
 to be embodied and become a part of 
 the original motion. 
 
 Mr. Cable stated that it had been 
 the policy of the Coal Valley Mining 
 company, to properly and promptly con- 
 sider any and all cases of deficient 
 work in the past and that it should 
 be in the future the same way, and 
 that being the case he would accept 
 the amendment. He caJled for a vote 
 on the motion las modified by the ad- 
 dition of the foregoing amendment and 
 the operators voted Aye, the miners 
 voted Aye, and the same was declared 
 adopted. 
 
 It was ordered that the agreement 
 become effective May 1, 1901. 
 
 Messrs. Lee and Schuler representing 
 the operators and Messrs, Picton and 
 Boland representing the miners, re- 
 ported that they had agreed that the 
 drivers in the 8th district should be 
 allowed overtime for whatever time In 
 excess of fifteen minutes more than the 
 usual timte required to be at the bot- 
 tom in order to reach the face at start- 
 
Appbndix— March 7. 
 
 365. 
 
 iiLg time, is required to take the mules 
 from stables located on the surface to 
 the bottom. The same rule to apply 
 for drivers taking their mules out af- 
 ter quitting. 
 
 Upon motion offered by Mr. Lukens, 
 seconded by Mr. Justi, the meeting ad- 
 journed. 
 
 JOHN HART, Secretary. 
 
 Following is a copy of the agreement 
 reached In regard to overtime for driv- 
 ers referred to above: 
 
 "Rock Island, AprU 24, 1901. 
 
 "As agreed by the commission, in 
 Rock Island, lApril 9th, 1901, iii regard 
 to se'ttling the .time to be allowed for 
 drivers fetching their mules from the 
 stable to the bottom of the shaft, where 
 stables are located on the surface. 
 This question was referred to Mr. 
 Shuler and Mr. Lee for the operators, 
 Mr. Picton and Mr. Boland for the 
 miners. This committee met and 
 agreed that the operators would pay 
 for all time over fifteen, minutes re- 
 quired to take the mules from the stable 
 on the surface tothe bottom oifthe shaft; 
 that is to say, the driver shall take the 
 mules from such surface stable to the bot- 
 tom, reaching the bottom in time to go 
 from there to .the parting so as to reach 
 the parting at the starting time — and 
 if this occupies more than fifteen min- 
 utes in excess of the time usually em- 
 ployed In getting from the bottom to 
 the starting place-^such excess shall 
 be paid for by the operator at the scale 
 rate per hour or fractional part of an 
 hour. The same rule" to apply when 
 drivers return the mules to the stables 
 after quitting." 
 
 For operators: 
 
 C._ SHULER. 
 ROBERT LEE. 
 For miners: 
 
 T. PICTON, 
 
 Sub-IMst. Pres. 
 JOHN BOLAND. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I contend that 
 as that committee was appoin'ted by 
 the last state convention to settle the 
 matter in dispute, at that time, be- 
 tween Cable and Sherrard, Gilchrist 
 and Wanlock, I say that from the fact 
 that Gilchrist and Wanlock was there 
 backing up the operators from Cable 
 and Sherrard, I think the records will 
 say they were entitled to the same 
 prices and conditions, if that Is a fact. 
 That coCTimlssi'on was appointed to go 
 there and make a settlement along the 
 limes 'Of our state agrreement, and I 
 contend under that agreement, they luid 
 no right to make an agreement, only in 
 line with our state agreement. Ac- 
 cording to this agreement. If the mine 
 was dissatisfied with the price which 
 the mine manager said he should have 
 for that work, he had a right to pro- 
 test against it and call on the pit com- 
 mittee and let it go up as a grievance. 
 According to the statements of opera- 
 tors from both places, they deny our 
 people that right. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— I do not think 
 anyone has been denied that right. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— You do not deny 
 them that right then. Do you deny 
 them that right, Mr. Cable? 
 
 MR. CABLE:— I may question, when 
 there is any contention as to the mat- 
 ter of pay to the miner. I understand 
 the miner has a right, under the agree- 
 ment, to take it up with the pit boss 
 first, and afterwards with the pit com- 
 mittee and foreman. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— If you recognize 
 our right under that agreement; when- 
 ever there is a dispute, you certainly 
 ought to be willing to make an ar- 
 rangement so that this work can be 
 settled for. If you are opposed to any 
 proposition we have made up to this 
 time, will you refuse then to go back 
 home and take this thing up In the sjib- 
 district or locally for adjustment, and 
 meet our people fairly on that proposi- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— There is a way to 
 take up all grievances. "W© do not 
 have to agree to anything of that kind. 
 If we have any cases that are not set- 
 tled In a satisfactory manner, you 
 have a recourse; you can take it up. 
 We do not deny you that right. We 
 do not consider we have any griev- 
 ance here. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS: —You certainly 
 have denied that right up until now. 
 We contended we had that right from 
 the very start but you would not agree 
 to any such arrangement. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— We have deficient 
 work in our sub-district as much as 
 they have In the northern field or any 
 other place. If there Is a place that 
 the pit boss and committee cannot 
 agree, they call out the superintendent 
 and sub-district president and they 
 both go in the mine, and I go down 
 myself in my district, and we always 
 adjust the matt^-r in the different 
 places. You do not have fifteen or 
 sixteen places all in one time. Prob- 
 ably you have one case in two weeks, 
 and sometimes one In three weeks. 
 You take it and adjust it just as you 
 would a roll or horseback. EJverythlng 
 goes through the proper chanaiel. It 
 goes there properly. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— As I understand Mr. 
 Beattle, that is taken up in the 13th 
 clause. I certainly think they have a 
 right as the agreement says, "where 
 the pit boss and mine laborer, or miner, 
 have failed to agree, the pit committee 
 and the miner's looaj president and the 
 pit boss are empowered , to adjust It," 
 etc. It seems to me that Is very broad. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— Mr. Beattie, one 
 question. In making those statements, 
 have you reference to any individual 
 case? 
 
 MR. BEATITIE:— You can miake tha 
 proper price on one place; one might 
 be more than the other. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— Each place should 
 be settled on its merits. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— You can adopt 
 
366 
 
 Appbndix— March 7. 
 
 some plan here by which we can tako 
 these cases up and dispose of 'them. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— L/et me ask ypu if any 
 better method can be deMised than' is 
 prescribed in the 13th clause 'of our 
 agreement ? 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I wish to say 
 every plaoe, we have deflcdent work, it 
 comes under 'that clause. They also 
 have a rule to take these matters up 
 and if they disagree then 'the matter 
 comes up and it will save trouble- if 
 we have an understanding. If a dis- 
 agreement comes up, or If a ininer 
 thinks he is imposed on, he has protec- 
 tion in the 13th clause. We ought to 
 have some understanding by which to 
 tnianage these cases, some locajl un- 
 aerstanding. Any local understanding 
 ive adopt here would be subject to that 
 :;lause anyhow, as all other cases sure. 
 We have an understanding in each dls- 
 ■rict in the state how to take up de- 
 Icient work, subject to 'that clause. 
 Everyth'in'g is subject to that state 
 igreement. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— I would like to ask Mr. 
 Reynolds if he thinks any better plan 
 :an be devised, sub-district, locally or 
 mywhere else, than the 13th clause. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— We do not object 
 o the 13th clause. We have been 
 ighting for that. We were denied that 
 )ut you now recognize our Pight. T'ou 
 ;laimed the matter laid in the hands 
 if the operator altogether. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— If you refer to the 
 ^hair, I correct you. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I mentioned op- 
 irators. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— Mr. Chairman, I do 
 lot know of but one case where there 
 las been any dispute in the past year 
 ,nd -it was something 'like the case that 
 ilr. Schuler cited the other day. A 
 ase where a miner, as 1 understand, 
 ailed on the pit committee to have 
 lis ca.se taken up and I am informed 
 hey would not do it, simply because 
 hey thought lit had no merit. This 
 lan went to Sub-district Presadent 
 'icton and he came down there and 
 ook the matter up of this man getting 
 ome deficient pay. Mr. Lee told 
 Ir. Picton the man was not entitled to 
 ny, he was making, at that time, gross 
 3.77. I think he also told Mr. Picton 
 bat if the man was tentitled to amiy- 
 tiing he could have it. It transpired 
 tiat the inside boss had promised him 
 amething. The matter was reported 
 > Mr; Lee's son and he reported It to 
 is father and he said if 'the man was 
 romised anything he has got to have 
 ;. The man was then making $3.77, 
 ut as sio'on as Mr. Less found out that 
 le pit boss had made him that prom- 
 le, ycu recalled him and notified him 
 le work was not deficient. That is the 
 iJy case that Mr. Lee recalls now that 
 as brought up there. There may have 
 sen others. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:- 1 was caught in 
 le same way. He paid one man $5 
 
 day. 
 MR. MURRAY:- 1 recall the case Mr. 
 
 Cable speaks of. The deficiency was 
 not in the coal. He was making 
 enough money at the coal but there 
 was dirt coming down and he loaded 
 so manly oars of dirt out and he be- 
 lieved he was entitled to compensation 
 for tha:t dirt. The pit boss had prom- 
 ised him this and it afterwards oame 
 out 'that he was not paid for it and 
 that was where the kick was made. 
 
 MR. ROBT. LEE:— I went and saw 
 the parties at once and had them 
 Drought in before me. I asked them if 
 he understood what deficient work was. 
 He said he did not. I asked the mine 
 manager if he understood. He said no. 
 I asked this man if he knew what his 
 average a day was for tfte two w^eeks'' 
 pay. He said not exactly. We figured 
 it and showed him $3.77. That was 
 the average for two weeks. I said I 
 did not consider he was entitled to that 
 if he included the dirt that had come 
 down. I asked him how the dirt came 
 down. He said from the roof. I asked 
 if the blast brought it. He said It did. 
 I asked him if he 'took any pains to 
 timber, tio keep the roof from coming 
 down. He said he did not. I asked 
 him how it happened. He said it was 
 after the blast. I was asked if he was 
 entitled to pay for deficient work and 
 I said no, and wheiU' it came to paying 
 it he asked why he was not paid for 
 deficient work. They told him it wae 
 because he was not entitled to it. He 
 appealed to the committee and the 
 committee did mot regard he was 
 and he then went to the district 
 president and took the matter up 
 and he just dropped it. When we 
 found he had been promised pay for 
 this deficient work, my son asked who 
 had promised it. He said the mine 
 manager. Then I Insisted that he 
 should have It. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Chairman, we 
 have 'talked this matter over and we 
 are willing to take this matter back 
 locally and make any kind of a. local 
 understanding, as to what deficient 
 work 'is and how it shall be paid for. 
 Whatever ruling you have shall be 
 subject to the 13th clause. Thajt is, if 
 the operator feels he has been im- 
 posed upon, he will have 'a right to 
 the protection of this clasue and so 
 will the miner. I believe that is just 
 as fair a proposit/on as any man can 
 ask. We are not asking for anything 
 we are not entitled to. We want you 
 to have some local ruling that will 
 save you a great deal of trouble. You 
 would not want every case referred 
 up and by having some tocal ruling, I 
 ha^ie no doubt you can come together 
 as you have admitted under this agree- 
 ment, made, we have o. voice in what 
 shall be and what shall be received for 
 deficient work. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:-Let me see if your con- 
 struction of this matter is the same 
 as Mr. Seattle's, that is, that no fixed 
 rule can be fixed for all different cases 
 that arise in the difCerent mines, there- 
 fore, if a case comes up in a mdne 
 
Appendix — March 7. 
 
 367 
 
 "Where there is no question as to 
 ■whether the work Is deficient work or 
 not, It shall be taken up by the miner 
 and the pit committee together, as 
 prescribed in the 13th clause of the 
 state agreement. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— In the first place, 
 "we would like to have a local ruling 
 like other places, as to how these 
 thing's should be taJcen up and if there 
 is, then, any dispute as to whether it 
 is deficient or can. be paid for, if 
 either side feels imposed on, then they 
 can take it up under clause 13. Tou 
 "know all our local rulingrs and sub- 
 •district rulings are subject to the state 
 agreement. "If any operators or miners 
 cannot agree as to their right, they al- 
 "way lare handed up according to the 
 state agreement. T'ou all know that is 
 the case. It is the ruling in all sub- 
 •dlstriots. All of our local and sub-dis- 
 trict rulings are subject to the state 
 agreement. TMs is line with our 
 method Of doing business and In Hn,e 
 with the state agreement and I do not 
 Itnow how anyone can refuse to accept 
 it. I do not want anyone Imposed on. 
 I would Mke to see them both get to- 
 gether and adopt some rule that would 
 tie both fair tb the operator and miner, 
 and let that rule be subject to the 
 state agreement. If you are willing' to 
 ■do that we are willing to agree with 
 you. 
 
 MR. liUKENS:— This is where the 
 place is to make such a ruling, if 
 there is going to be one made. That 
 Is what such ootiventions are for, and . 
 it is dome in all other cases and should 
 be done here. This seems to be a case 
 ■where it is a ffood deal like con- 
 struing that 16th clause, as to what an 
 ■ordinary condition or an extraordinary 
 condition is. It is largely a matter of 
 judgmejit and opinion. Tou take the 
 16th clause, one man will say a shot 
 -was a reckless shot and the miner is 
 to blame for shooting it. A miner will 
 turn around and say it was a proper 
 shot. In this particular case, I am 
 familiar with the entire ciircumstanoes 
 surrounding it, as I was one of the 
 committee appointed last year to settle 
 it. I have listened to more' or less 
 arguments on both sides and it seems 
 to me the only waly you can adjust it 
 in a satisfactory manner without fric- 
 tion lis to do as they have done In the 
 past, having in mind the 13th clause. 
 Take each case up on its merits. As I 
 said before, it seems to me the way 
 to do would be to re-enact last year's 
 scale, having in mind the 13th clause. 
 I take it there has not been many 
 causes for complaint doTvn there; there 
 may be a few but from what I know 
 of this, genltlemen, I believe they are 
 Inclined to treat their miners fairly and 
 justly. I do not think you will have 
 many oases to refer for settlepient. 
 
 MR. ESSEX:— What part of the state 
 do yooi live in? 
 
 MR. LUKENS:— The central part. 
 
 MR. RETNOLiDS:- My reason, for 
 making the proposition to take the 
 
 matter up locally, and try if possible 
 to come to some understanding about 
 how this should be taken up and paid, 
 is that I believe that nobody as well 
 qualified to decide those questions as 
 the people at home, the miners, at 
 home, and if their judgment is at fault, 
 they still have the protection of the 
 13th clause. This will keep the state 
 officials away from a great deal of 
 trouble, 'and they are really qualified 
 toi settle these questions, as the man- 
 agement of that property know the 
 companies thoroughly and the miners 
 know the companies thoroughly and 
 they both know what is fair better than 
 either Mr. Justl or myself. I believe 
 if they can get some local rule, subject 
 to the 13th clause, so anyone canot be 
 imiM>sed on, it is the best way out of 
 this question. It will save lots of 
 trouble for both. I believe the opera- 
 tors want to be fair, and if they don't 
 want to be fair we have the 13th clause 
 to make them be fair. 
 
 MR. SCHULER:— That is the point 
 exactly. The same conditions have 
 been thrashed here as will be at home. 
 This is the time to act upon It. If the 
 miner thinks he has been treated 
 wrongly, he has recourse: we have tls* 
 same recourse. Tou cannot fix this 
 matter up any better at home than you 
 can here. Tou have to take them up 
 as they oome. 
 
 MR. RETNOLiDS:- 'From what ac- 
 quaintance and from what dealings I 
 have had with operators in that field, 
 and the miners in that field, I believe 
 they are just as intelligent and just 
 as capable to settle their affairs locally 
 as any field in the state of Illinois. I 
 do not think it is fair to either the 
 operators or miners of that field to say 
 they cannot take up a question of that 
 kind and settle it. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— They have not done it 
 up there, so far. 
 
 MR. RETNOLDS:— No, sir. But It 
 was simply the operators said what it 
 should be and that ended it. 
 
 MR. CABLE:— We appreciate Mr. 
 Reynolds' bouquet as to our ability, but 
 I believe as Mr. Seattle does, that 
 when a case comes up where there is 
 any discussion about the work. It 
 should be taken up and settled right 
 there. Mr. Beattie said it was done 
 there before. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— There was a time 
 in Spring Valley when we never could 
 get any consideration at all and under 
 the state agreement, the 13th clause, 
 when there came up a grievance, it 
 was taken up by the pit boss and In- 
 di'v'idual in dispute. When they dis- 
 agreed it was referred to the pit com- 
 mittee ajid mine manager and after 
 they disagreed it was left to the sub- 
 district president and superintendent, 
 and all w^ent down in the mine together. 
 I went do'wn sometimes, instead of the 
 sub-district president, with the super- 
 ■ intendenit and we 'always made an ad- 
 justment of the trouble by going in and 
 seeing the deficient places. 
 
368 
 
 Appendix — March 7. 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— Mr. Chairman, 
 after 'talking thii^ matter over, we find 
 the operators haye serious objections to 
 any local understanding, and we are 
 now satisfied to agree to the price and 
 conditions. I do not believe there is any 
 dispute about the prices and condi- 
 tions; the only dispute is reg-ardlng de- 
 ficient work. In addition to that, as to 
 deficient work we want added to that, 
 for deficient work: "In regard to de- 
 ficient work where a miner has a de- 
 ficient place, the operator will come 
 into that place and offer a priioe; if the 
 miner feels the price is not fair, he 
 will then have a right to take it up 
 jus.t as we do any other grievance, by 
 calling in the pit committee. If they 
 cannot agree, then It shall go to the 
 superintendent and on up according to 
 the 13th clause of the present state 
 agreement. 
 
 MR. BEATTIB:— I move that Mr. 
 Schuler and Mr. Reynolds go out and 
 draw up one and present it here. 
 (Seconded.) 
 
 MR. GUTHRIE:— The following is 
 what we have d'edided on: "Gilchrist, 
 Wanlock, Sherrard, Cable and Silvls 
 mine, 60 cents per ton, w'ith last year's 
 cooDditiOTis. In case of deflcdent work 
 where the miner and mine manager 
 
 cannot agee, as to compensation, the- 
 mine committee shall be called in Sha 
 if they cannot agree the dispute shall be- 
 carried up under the 13th clause of the 
 present scale." 
 
 MR. REYNOLDS:— I move Its adop- 
 tion. 
 
 MR. JUSTI:— We have heaxd the, 
 motion. It will be necessary to with- 
 draw the amendment. Will you move 
 that this be accepted in lieu of what, 
 has already been done, proposed by- 
 both miners and operators? 
 
 MR. SCHULER: — ^I withdraw my 
 former motion. To get into this a 
 little further, the question came up 
 vMat would be necessary to first decide 
 where the deficiency exists. I wish this- 
 to be referred to Mr. Beattie and have 
 him give us a dtefiniition as to w^hat a 
 man should do to claim deflcdent work. 
 
 MR. BEATTIE:— In case of the 
 miner getting into deficient work, and! 
 the same continues fior a period of 
 time, then his case shall be taken up 
 and adjusted and he shall recel-ve oom- 
 pensajtion for the same. If he has not 
 made wages while working in said de- 
 flciitenit -wiork and such settlemeots are 
 to be made at each pay day. 
 
 Adjourned. 
 
 UNION 
 PROCEEDINGS 
 
 THIS MATERIAL 
 
 IS FOR USE 
 
 ONLY 
 
 IN THE 
 
 LIBRARY 
 
Cornell University Library 
 HD6515.M7I31902 
 
 Joint convention of the Illinois Coal Op 
 
 3 1924 002 335 747