it: THE GIFT OF ..L.s.o%.p ^.^[±l±?:. Cornell University Library HV 9305.N72E4 v.1-2 Report and proceedlnas of the State Boar 3 1924 024 885 067 QJornpU Ham ^rI|onl Hibrary Cornell University Library The original of tiiis bool< is in tine Cornell University Library. There are no known copyright restrictions in the United States on the use of the text. http://www.archive.org/details/cu31924024885067 REPORT AND PROCEEDINGS OF THE 5TATE BOARD OF CHARITIES RELATIVE TO THE MAN AGEM ENT OP THE STATE REFORMATORY AT ELMIRA. TRANSMITTED TO THE LEGISLATURE MARCH 19, 1894. ALBANY : JAMES B. LYON, STATE PRINTER. 1894. State of New York, No. 89. IN ASSEMBLY, Maeoh 19, 1894. EEPORT AND PEOOEEDINGS OF THE State Board of Charities Relative to the Management of the State Reformatory at Elmira. STATE OF NEW YORK: Office of the Commissioner of the "] State Boaed of Chaeitibs. Fiest Judicial Disteict. V 54 William Steeet, New Yoek, March 17, 1894. J Hon. Gbokge E. Mal-ry, Assembly Chamber, Albany, N. Y.: Dear Sir. — I transmit ia you herewith, in obedience to a resolu- tion of the State Board of Charities, a copy of the r^ort of the speieial cioiimiitftiee of tlhle Boiairti to inTtestHlgaitle the nDanagemieinitiof the Steiibe RefonnJatotPy ait Ehniiraj, which fepMitl was by foraual resoiutiiion unanimously aidoptledl ats-thie report of thleBoarf toithe Legislature. Following the report are recommendations relating, to the man- ' agement of the said institution, which were also unanimously adopted, by the State Board .of Charities, and are respectfully sul> mitted for the consideration of the Legislature. I have instructed the secretary of the Board to place a copy of the report in the post-office box of each Member of the Ajssembly on Monday Evening, the nineteenth instant, at 8 o'clock. With great respect, yours very truly. WM. R. STEWABT, Presid&nt. REPORT. Office of the State Boabd of Charities, ) Albany, March 16, 1894. ) To the Honorable the Legidatiirp of the State of Mew York: The State Board of Obaritlesi, im compliance with; the statur tory otoligations imposed upon it, herewith respectMlyi transmits to thei Legislature of the State of New York ithe report of the special committee of the Board appointed to investigate the management of the State Reformatory at Elmira with its findings and ctonclusioiis. ^ This report was unanimouMy adopted at a special meeting ' of the Board, held at itsi office in the Capitol at Albany, on the 16th day of March, 1894, and was by formal resolution made the report of the State Board of Charities to the Legiislaiture. The State Board consists of eleven commisisloners, of whom ten were present and voted, one being abroad. The recommendationsi of the State Board of Charities, in rela- tion to the management of the State Eeformatory at Elmira, which are based upon the report above mehtiohed, were aleo unaniimoiusly adopted, and follow the report. They are' respect- fully submitted for the consideration anld action of the Legislature. A copy of the eyidencei tafcen by the ispecial committee, com- prising thirteen bound volumesi, in all 3,812 pages of typewriting, including copies of nearly 1,000 lettersi written by convictsi to the committee, are herewith ■fransimitted to the Legislature. Copied of records and the originalsi of the letters named are filed for' reference in the office of the State Board of Qharities. By order of the Board: WILLIAM E. STEWAUT, Bresident. AtteBt: t/HABLKS S. HOYT, Seoretary. REPORT OF THE SPECIAL COMMITTEE TO THE STATE BOARD OF CHARITIES, BY EDWARD H. LITCHFIELD, ACTING CHAIRMAN. [Note. — Page references are to typewritten copy.] "Hie undersigned, a committee appointed in August last, by tlie Startle Boai"d of CtLairities, with, ihe appiroivai of th.© Govemor, to investigate the internal administi-ajtion and the g&ieml con- dition of the State Befo(mia±ory at Elmii'a, and to inquire into the oases of alleged cruelty or Injustice towaird' the inmates, tiere- witih submit to the Boatrd their report of such' iniveistigaition and inquiry. Tlhe committee cooosisted; of the lartei Osicar Craig, of Eociheslsa', then president of the Boairti ; Dr. Stephen Smith, of New York, and Edward H. Litchfield, of Brooiklyn. Immedi'aitely thereiafter anmounoement was made in the public paiesa calling on all persons who had or shoidd wish to make aUegatioDs against the disciplinaiy or financial mamagemenit or the general administration of the said ref<)lrmia|bcMiy, or againist any of its officers or managers, to file wiritten copieis of suoh alle- gartioms at the office of the State Board of Ohairiities on or before September first last, whereupon numerous written allegations and charges were made and filed with said Boiar^ in complianice with the said notice, eiubstiaaitially as foUowisi : Fimt That the general superilotendent, Z. R Brookway, was guilty of unlawful, uBJust, cruel, brutal, iTiihliimMiTii, degrading, excessiTe and unusual punislbmeait of tnmatesi, frequemMy causdng permanient injuries and disfigurementsi. Second. That he was guilty of mismianaigemenit, incomjpetency and neglect in his administration of "the reformiartotry i!n the fol- lowing pairticularis, among others, to wit : In the infliction of cor- poiral punistunent for unsatisfactory sioholamsihip; in his particular method' of using the inmiarte monitor isystem; in requiring the perfoarananee of unir^sonaible and excessiivei d^ly task® in the sihiapg; in lailowing caadessniess and neglect in the medical siuper- visSoM of inmatesi; in countenancing brutality oni the part of officeira and- keepers; and in various others ithings wlhich will not be repeated here. There were no charges or allegations made againsit the flnani- cial mamagement of lihe (reforlmiajtoiry, nior have any such, been- oomiaitdeired. , Til The iiivesrti'galtitKni beigam Sepfcemliefp 26, 1893, latb tike Elmira RefoMDja'toiiy, on whiicti, oocajsiioini thje course of fntoicediire alone waia ooiiBidefried. The taking of rfcestiimony began Ootdbeirsevieiitli, at iihe samie place, the .superin- tendent has ever gomie ujyon the records of the board? "A. No, sir." And again (p. 3678): . "Q. The time whiem it should be inflicted^ and the maiiiner in which it should be inflictied', the extent to , which it should be inflicted? " A- All left to his diiscretion ; we had entire confidence in him." An examination of the minutes of the board of managers shows that the above statements are true^ B. That the sadd boarfi of mangers ha« never been present, either as a board or individually, when the general superintendent inflicted , corp<5ral punishment upon inmates ; therefore, they know nothing as to the occasion for or the severity of the same, except ing through such, statements as the general superintendent or others may h^/ve chosen tO' make to them. Ex-Keeper Winaile testifies (p. 2689): " Q. With reference to the punishmientsi that were inflicted, do you know that any one of the board of management were ever present, at the time when those punishments were inflicted? "A. Neveii preaentJ' , ' President^ Wey, of the boaj?d of managers, testaflesi (p. 3677): " Q. Do you know of any odoaision when th^ board of managers were present during the administering of the cotrporal punishment? " A. I have never witnessed it." And again (p. 3678): " Q. Do you know of any other member of the boaiPd that has ever been present? "A. I don't believe any member of the present board cm" any past board has ever witneeeed that opeiratiion." ii viil advocate of such, a court. Assistant Secretary James O. Fanning, of the State B»ard of Charities, acted as secretary for th.e com- mittee. Messrs. John B. Stanchfleld and T. E. Babcock were present as counsel to watch the case for the managers and the general superintendent of the reformatoi'y. By th.e direction of the committee, such books and records of tbe reformatory as were needed were placed in evidence, from which voluminous extracts and abstracts were made, and are filed berewith as part of the proceedings. At the suggestion of the general superintendent, concurred in by th.e committee, a general invitation was extended to the convicts to address sealed communications tO' the commit- tee, containing any statements tbey might desire to make, and, in consequence thereof, over 900 such leit!tersi were received and examined by us, copies of which letters are annexed to this report. The witnesses examined included a large number of present and former inmates of the reformatory, alid convicts' who had been transferred from the reformatory to Auburn and Clinton State prisons; men who were or had been oflScersi, managers, or employes of the reformatory; medical men; clergymen; the county judge of Erie coumty, and various ofiicersi of Aubium' aaid Clinton prisons, and others. From the immense mass of testimony and proofs tbus taken, and very largely from that of General Superiai- tendent Brockway himself, as corroborated by that of present 'and fonner oflacers of the reformatory, we report the following as some of the facts established by the investigation : FINDrNGS OF FAOTS. First. A. That the board of managers bad never passed or adopted any rules, reguiatibus or resolutions governing the method of punielhin«nt and discipline now or. heiretofore in use at the refo!^na^ tory, but have left such, matters entirely in the handsi of tbe gen- eral sfuperintemdent, lalthough, the sttatute oomfersi upon tlhem only the power of making " aU rules and regulatiotns necessary and proper foir the * • * discipline * * * of all thei convicts in said reformatory " (chap. 711, Laws of 1887, § 11). The general superintendent testifies on this point as' follows (p. 145) : " Q. Have there been any rules or regulations adopted by the boaird of managers with reference to the discipline of Inmates? "A. No rules and regulatibns." " Q. (p.! 146) Is the met!hx>d of punishment regulated by a reso- lution or direction, resoluttHotn passed by the board! of maaiagers, or diriecitioiii from the Iroard of managers, or is it regulated by yourself? ; . , , 1 "A. It is regiilated by the general isuperinteiident, with the approval, tacit otr expressed, of the board of managers." " Q. (p. 147) I understand you to say that yon are not aware of the boajrd adoptSlng or passing any resolution regarding that matter? "A. No. " Q. So that the matter is left toi t!hje superintendent to decide and determine when and in what manner punishments may be inflicted'? "A. Yes." Dr. William O. Wey, president of the boaiTd of managers, when interrogated on thi^ point, testiflesi (p. 3668): ''Q. Authorized it by foirmal resolution? ■'A. No; I think nothing in regard to that matter has ever gone upon the eecretairy's recoid. " Q. Nothing ishowing direction by the board tOi the superin- tendent has ever gome upon the records of the board? "A. No, sip." And agadn (p. 3678): . " Q. The time when it should be infliotedi, and the miaminier in which it should be inflicted, the extent to, which it should be inflicted? " A. All left to hiia diisicretion; we had entire confidence in Mm." An examination of the minutes of the board of managers shows that the above statements: are true.' B. That the said boarfi of mamgers ha« never been present, either as a board or individually, when the general superdntendent inflicted, corporal punishment upon inmates; therefore, they know nothing as to the occasion for ov the severity of the same, exoepti- ing through such statements as the general superintendent or others may h^ve chosen to- nxake to them. Ex-Keeper Winnie testiflesi (p. 2689): " Q. With reference to the punishments that were inflicted, do yoii know that any one of the board of management were ever ' present, at the time when those punisihments were inflicted? " A. Nevei^ presient" ' Presidenii| Wey, of the board of managers, testiflesi (p. 3677): " Q. Do you know of any ooc«ision when thel board of managers were present during the adinindstering of the corporal punishment? " X. I have never witnessed it." And again (p. 3678): " Q. Do you know of any other member of the board' that has ever been present? "A. I don't believe any member of the present board or any past board has ever witneesed that opeiciation." ii There is abundant other testimony to the same effect. C. That the doctor or physician of the reformatory doeei not examine the inmates before corporal puniishment to ascei-tain whether or not they are unfit, because of illness, physical or mental weakness or othesrwise, to undergo severe punishment; that said physician was never present, during the administering of said punishments; that said physician never but five or six times ejcamined any of ssadi inmates after such punishment was over. On these pointe the general superintendent testifies (p. 213): " Q. Is the physician of the reformatory ever present at theet spanMngs? "A. No, sir; there never has been any occasion for it." And again (p. 212): . " Q. Have any of those cases after punishment been examined by the physician of the institution? "A. There has been one case where the physician was called and that is the only one I recollect." Ex-Keeper Wianie testifies (p. 2662); "Q. Was the physician ever present? " A. No, sir." " Q. (p. 2665.) Were these men ever examinad by the physi- cian immediately before, or* immediately after, punishment? "A. Not that I know of." Keeper Sample testifles (p. 3088): "Q. I think you have testified you were present when this man with the truss was paddled? "A. Yes, sir. "Q. Was he examined by the physician before he was paddled to see whether or not he was a fit subject for paddling? "A. No, sir; not on that day." The physician -of the reformatory, Dr. H. C. Wey, himself testi- fied (p. 3*529): " Q. Were you ever present at any tiine when inmates were pun- ished in the bath-room? "A. No, sir." And, again (same page): "Q. Did you ever ask to be present? •"'A. No, sir." And, again (same page): "Q. Are you always consulted with reference to the propriety of administering such punishment, in every instance? "A. No, sir." And, again (p. 3551): " Q. There wa® no. regulatioiu requirimg you to visit these patients immediately after pumshih'eiit to see what injury, if any, had been inflicted upon them by the punishment? "A. No, sir." And, again (same pag^): " Q. Asi a matter of fact, did you soi examine them before pun- ishment, as a rule? "A. No, sir." ■ , There isi much more testimony corroborating the foregodng. D. That many convicts are punished by siolitary confinement for long periods of time in cells constoioted of bWler iron, and known as " seclusions " or " solitariesi," on short allowance, wh^-e they are frequently manacled by nthe hand tO' a sliding ring on a bar on the wall, or to a dng in the floor, bbth day and night, so that they can not stand upright; or manaclpd by the handsS during the day, for at least eleven hours at a time, to the iron gate of such cell, in a standing position with the handj^ at the height of the head, and that disgneiting conditions frequently follow thisi method of restraint; that said cells are sometimes made totally dark by the cioising of certain shutters in the adjacent windows, which absolutely excludes aU light; that such punishment is extremely severe to the health, particularly if con- tinued for more than several days at a time. ' ■ _ X Oaipitaln of thie night watoh, Rickey, testifies (p.3252): •' Q. Have you ever known inmates to be chained by one hand to this ring in the floor ? - . "A. Yes, sir. • " For how long a time ? '• A. My recollection of it would be, say anywhere from one to five or six; I never kept a record of it." Ex-Keeper Beach testifies (p. 49?) : " Q. With reference to the length of time that they were chained to the sliding bar that you refer to, how long have you known them to be chained ih that way, how long a time ? " A. I believe we have had men chained to that bar for a hum- bef of weeks at a time." And again (p. 490) : ^ " Standing at the door, as a mode of punishment, I have never known a man to be compelled to stand in that position, to my knowledge now, longer than ten (10) hours, generally the working hours of the day might possibly have gone over that, but that was the rule or regulation to have them stand there while the other prisoners twere working. Fastened to the ring or to the sliding bar they have been confined in that way for a number of weeks at a time. • • • » This is corroborated by a great number of Witnesses. Tbat the pliysician of the reformatory does not visit such prisoners nor prescribe as to their allowance nor examine into the state of their health while thus confined; that said physician is not required by any rules or regulations of either the said board or the general superintendent to visit such prisoners daily or at any other time, although the policy of the State in such matters, as indicated by chapter 82, Laws of 1889, section 88, regarding State prisons, requires that '' the short allowance of each prisoner so confined shall be prescribed by the physician, whose duty it dhall be to visit such prisoner and examine daily into the state of his health until the prisoner be released from solitary confinement and returns to his labor." On this point the general Siui>erintendent testifies (p. 308) : " Q. But thero is nothing in the rules or regulations requiring him to do it ? "A. Ko, sir." Ex-Keeper Beaoh tesitfifles (pi 493): " Q. While they were chained in the cells did the physician visit them daily ? "A. No, sir; not unless his attention was called to them. I don't think that he did." The above is corroborated by other evidence. That said physician is not required by the rules and regulations to be a resident at the reformatory; that he resides over a mUe and a half away therefrom; that he attends each forenoon fr-om 8 until 12 or 1 o'clock, and that he devotes the rest of the twenty- four houi-s to his private practice, except whep summoned by tele- phone; that during his absence the medical care of this large insti- tution of nearly 1.500 inmates is left wholly in the hands of an ordinary hospital attendant, who is neither a licensed physician nor pharmacist, who is sometimes himself a convict; and this, although the evidehce shows that there is often occasion for the immediate presence of a trained' physician both by day and night. That the present doctor or physician of the said reformatory, i Dr. Hamiltdn C. Wey, is the son of Dr. William C. Wey, president of the board of managers of the reformatory, and that such appoint- ment, whether or not according to law, is obviously against sound public policy and is detrimental to all good discipline, inasmuch as any shortcomings or omissions on his part would naturally be overlooked by the managers or superintendent. Dp. H. C. Wey himself testifies (p. 3524): " Q. You are a son of Docftor Wey, the priesidentt of tihe boaM of maniSigerB? A. Yes, ^." E. ThjaJt the form of corporal pumHlhiinienifc known as spamking or* paddling adopted by th,e giemeral siuperinitendemt, and tacitly recognized by the miaioagieiiis, is a very severe amid orael punilsih.- nient, capable of doing serious injury physicfilly and moirally to thje ooiKvict punisSied thereby, and wMich., if used at all, shoaild never be applied except in extlreme oaises. The testimony ahoiws that ilt is inflicted by suicih general siuperintenident far the sligihteat aauses — fbr misitakes in military drill; fbr' failure to make partiiciilar mairkinigs ae ginades in istudy claisses, or iu tihe trade schools; for failure to accomplish the tasks set in the shops oa* trade schooils, althouglh the' individual miay not be physically equal to such tasks; ftvr failure to observe and kee^p all the infini- tesimal rules and ragulajtionisi of the inistitatiocDi, although the sole printted book or copy of euah' rules and regulationis furnished to each convict was coijiplied and primted in 1884, and isi not a com- plete copy at the rules amd reigTiliaitioins nioiwi exisitiing, but on the contnairy contaims many rules now obsolete and conltaine none of tihoise adopted since said year, 1884. TMs punishment is inflicted with especial iieverity upon such men as lajre fomid with tobacco in their possiesisiooa, or whoi affie suspecitfid of having it, or who have been feUowi-ceUmiatesi with men' who have been found with toj)acco in thgiir possession or were suspieioted of havihg it, aaid thija, notwlttotandtug that officers amd eaniployefii of the reffbrmia- tory usie tobacco in the outer offices or ito theSir quairteirs, and smoke in the presence of convicit% who for any cause are in said offices or quartena, and undoubtedly ocioasiomially carry oigara or tobaocv> into the refiormaltory itlself in their pocfcelts, thereby exposing the oootwicts to temptaltiomi and yearning for the forbidden thing, and affording them opportunity for surreptiti- ously obtaining the same.. F. Thiat corporal punisllmient or spanking and punishknent by confinement, as aforesaid, on shorit iallowiancie, or chaihed in the seclusion ceUa or isolitaries, is laliSo inflicted for tiie purpose of com,peUing confessions. The general superintendent himself .testifies (see p. 321) : " Q. Have punishments ever been inflidted to your knowledge for the purpose of obtaining confeasion or admissions of guilt with reference to any particular thing? A. I have in some insitancea proceeded for ^tiie purpoisie of securing teatimony where a man refuses or neglects to give (his itestimony." Ex-Keeper Halpin testifies (p. 2809): " Q. And did he finally While he was standing at the window receiving the punislmient, did he finally say he would answer the questions ? A- He did, I think." xlv . " Q. (P. 2810.) That is, the officers or superintendeBt were requiring this man to give certain information against himSfelf and these other imnatea, isn't that so? A. Yesi, eSr. " Q. And he finajly consentted to give tihat infonmation? A. That is my opinion. "Q. Upon condition that they would stop punMiinig himi? A. Yes, sir. , ' "Q. And upoii that condition lihe punistoieiiifi did stop? A. Yes, sir." G. Thait "spanMng" or " paiddling," as applied by the gen- eral superintendent under the fanciful title of "physdical treajt- ment," is frequently inflicted by him in a very brutal and inhuman manner. That the instrument' or paddle used is a beavy leather strap one foot ten inches long, three inch.es wide .and nearly a quarter of an inch thick, affixed to a strong hickory handle one foot two inches in length; that the said paddle weighs one pound when dry, and is soaked in water before being used, thereby gain- ing two and a half ounces in weight and becoming very much moi-e effective! through a close contact with the skin. Tjlat it is always applied on the bare skim and nominally on the right but- tock, but that no care is taken to confine the blows tO' that spot, and thi&y reach sometimes as high as the shoulder blades and over the kidneys. Begardiag the severity of the blow from this paddle the general superintendent himself testifies (p. 193): "A very slight blow will leave a mark, a temporary congestion or ecchymosis." A former hospital steward, Malcolm A. Breese, testifies (p. 466) : " It brought the blood to the surface of ihe plan so it showed very prominently in some instances." Ex-Keeper Winnie testiflesi (p. 2628) : " I have seen the flesh' purple from the effect of the bloAv." And again (p. 2693): " Q. The bloT^'s were usually about as severe as could bd given with the instrument that was used? '' A Yes, sir." Ex-Keeper McMsh testifies (p. 2755): •' Q. Did you see any of these inmates' backsi at the time' they were punished? ''A. Yes sir. "Q. What marks if any, did you discover on their backs at that time? ''A. A purplish blue. '■' Q. Many of them? "A. Yes, sir. " Q. Nearly all of them? XV "A. Yes, isiip." Keeper Sample testifies (p. 3044): " Q. Did you observe Ms buttocks after lie reod.ved puniisluiieiit?" "A. Yes, sir. " Q. What was the appearance? " A. A reddish, purple color." And again (p. 3122): " Q. Those casies wliere you saw their backis withini a few min- utes after the punishment ceased, what was. the appearance ? " A. A red purple color, dark red, some plaoeis purple. '* Q. Isoi't it true that these inmates frequently, while the ^un- ishmemt was being inflicted, would cry with pain? " A. Some men would cry. " Q. And would ' holler ' because of pain? ' " A. They would howl." The evidence shovre that thfe buttocks become badly ddtecolored, black and bluel or purple, and often remain in a raw condition for some (lays after paddling, so that the underclothes stick to the wounds, add the patient is unable to sit or lie on the wounded parts. As to thein appearance Eev. Father Bloomer testified as to- an inmate (p. 452) : "He says: 'I want to show you my' condition;' I don't know the name; I looked around, and the boy pulled hisi ishirt up from his pantaloons and exposed his whole back to me and I was 'astonished to see the condition presented. There was everything there but a natural color; it was all black, purple, blue and dils^ colpred from his hips up to his shoulders. I aisked him what was the matter, with him. He said he had' been paddled a number of times." - Eev. William Searles testifies, in another' case (p. 1228) : " He turned about and dropped his pants and lifted his shirt, and his whole body was lacerated in tjie most feprful manner." (P. 1230): * » * "'They were festering; it was very offemsiive; I didn't get over it in a week." " Q. Over what jwrtion of his back? ' "A. Across the top of his hips — the whole buttock; I should say, twenty places; abrasions of the skin, festering; still bloody, some portions of the skin' was." Cases have occurred where convicts have been spanked several times in one day, or two or more days consecutively. Convicts have also been struck in the stomach with the paddle. They , have also been, pacjdled on Sunday. The punishment is so severe that the "patient," as the general superintendent describes the individual undergoing' the punishment, frequently falls to the floor, and ia such cases he is usually handcuffed, a snap cord attached toi the handcuffs and run through the ters of ■&£ window overhead, and then pulled upon his feet and the whip- ping renewed. Oocasdons have ocouiPred where he has been hoasted completely from his feet and suspended by said hand- cuffs during the remainder of the whipping, as testified to by njany convicts and others. The general superintendent himself testifiea (p. 185): "Q. In the first place he is handcuffed, then the cord is attached to a link? "A. Yes. "Q, And then fastened to the bar above? «A. Yes. . " Q. So thait really when he is hung up be is suspended by his vrrists, if at all? "A. If he is suspended from the floor — you must not mis- understand me — when the cord is attached the man is not pulled trotai the floor; usually he stands on his feet. As I have stated, there have been instances where for a moment I have directed the man to be raised. "Q. You mean during the entire epanMng? "A. Oh, no, sir; just for a moment or so." And again (p. 186): " Q. Whenever this suspension oocum yon say it is only for a moment; how long a time? ,, "A. I never took a watch and timed it; my recollection is noi; more than one minute, as near as I can state it." Ex-Keeper Winne testifiesi (p. 2669): "Q. Have you ever seen men suspended during the punish- ment by manacles and cord from the bar? "A. Yes, sir. "Q. Ever seen them raised clean from their feet? "A. Yes, sir. «Q. Often? ' "A. Not very often; no, sir. "Q. You have seen it several tames? "A. Several timea "Q. How long were they suspended in that way? "A. A few seconds." Keei)er Sample testifies (p. 3117): "Q. What per cent of the inmates do you say vrould resist and you would have to subdue them and haul thetm up by the aid of the shackles and cord? "A. Ten out of eveiry hundred. " Q. Out of the eight hundred you refer to, about eighty would have to be handled in that way? "A. Yes, sir." And again furtter on : '' * • * You asked me Ilow many men I ever seen hauled up to the window? I told you ten per cent. Some men didn't •resist." 'ti'N H. Thait during tlie spanking the patient' is required to stand with his fingers on the sill of the window above him and keep hie head turned to the right away from the paddler, and that if I'or asking mercy, or from the anguish of the spanking, or any other cause, he turns hiei head, he is immediately struck a blow over the head or directly on ithe face by the general superin- tendent, who is invariably the paddler, with the heavy paddle, frequently causing What iis called a black eye, or cutting ' the sikin oif the face or head so' as tO' cause bruises, and at times causing the blood to flow from the eontvict'si nose so as to daub the wall in front of him and the marble floor, on which he stands. These blows are also sonletimes struck with the wooden handle of the paddle, with like effect. The following extracts from the testimony of witnesses called on behalf of the general superintendent and managers of the reformatory are quoted as fully sustaining and proving these fintjings. * \ ' . The general superintendent himself testifies (p. 201) : "Q. While undergoing the punishment the convicts turn their face away — bave yoii ever gtrijck them in the face ? ''A. With the 'gtrap I have; the prisoner is unable to observe the direction." And on page 202: ' " ♦ • ♦ I iiave, in one instance, where soft hand and soft strap seemed not so serviceable, have taken in the middle of the handle, that handle, and just rapped them lightly until he turned , hia head the other way, and it may be proven, as I affirm, not admit, that in one instance a very thin-skinned man, an abrasion was' made here which required court-plaster." And again (p. 203): «» » » * ^''iiere a man has braced himself I have surprised him Ify a spat on the top of the head, and, in some instances by a misadventure, by accident, he has got a black eye from the end of the strap that has come over." > . , Ex-Keeper Winnie testifies (p. 2628): " Q. Have' you seen inmates with black and blue bruises ujKjn their faces or around their eyes ? >, "A. Yes, sir. , " Q. Made by the strap ? "A. Yesi sir. xviil "Q. The force of the blow over the head with the strap was sufficient to cause that appearance ? "A. Yes, sir." And again (p. 2666): "Q. They were given not"'because of anything he had done before he was taken to the bath-room ? "A. No, sir. ' " Q. Not because of anything he did in the bath-room, except he failed to obey orders in looldng in a particular direction or par- ticular point ? « A. Yes, sir." And again (p. 2701): "Q. Was there ever any occasion when blood was upon the floor of the bath-room or upon the walls of the bath-room, left there by the inmate® that had been punished ? ' " A. I have seen blood on the floor in small quantities; when a man would be stnick across the nose, his nose would bleed. " Q. And blood on the walls; as it ran down his waist, it would spatter on the walls a little — the wall on each side where he stood up next to the window ? "A. Yes, sir." And again (p. 2706): " Q. This blood on the wall that you refer to wa« right opposite ? " A. Eight in front of them; it came down their waist on their clothes." Ex-Keeper McNish testifles (p. 2742) : "Q. Ever see any blood upon the wall of the bath-room ? "A. I think I have; yes, sir. " Q. On the floor of the bath-room ? i "A. Yes, sir." And again: " Q. Do you remember whether in cleaning vou observed blood in the bath-room ? "A. Yes, sir; I vriped up blood drops that was on the floor. ' "Q. Different times? " A. Yes, sir." ^ ' And on i>age 2743: " Q. Were you ever present in the bath-room when the prisoners, from blows which they received, when the blood flowed from them? "A. I have seen men have the nose bleed." And again (p. 2744) : " Q. WhUe you saw these punishments did you ever see the superintendent strike any of the inmates with the strap over the head? / ziz "A. Yes, sir. " Q. On several occasions ? "A. Yes, sir. " Q. For what reason ? " A. For turning their heads. " Q. Ever see him strike them over the head for any otheir reason ? "A. No, sir." ' ' And again, same page: " Q. Ever see the inmates' nose bleed from a blow over the face or head upon more than one occasion ? "A. I think so; yes, sir. " Q. Several ? "A. Yesi, sir." Keeper Sample, who had been present at eight hundred (800) punishments, testifies (p. 3091): " Q. Upon how many different occasions, in all, would you say you have seen the blood flow from an inmate ? " A. I couldn't say exactly." » * » And further on: "Q. Caused, sometimes, by th.e blows you sfinick, and some- times by the blows the others struck ? '' A. I have seen it from the strap, never from my own blows. " Q. From the blows the others gave ? "A. No, sir; only Mr. Brockway. "Q. Never saw it flow, except by the blows /given by Mr. Brockway ? " A. Yes, sir. " Q. Those Kvere blows given by the strap ? " A. Yes, sir." And again (p. 3093): " Q. You said upon fifteen different occasions you saw bloodv? "A. Yes, sir. ",Q. Was that, in every instance, from the inmate's nose ? "A. Yes, sir." And again: " Q. Were you present upon one occasion when the handle of the paddle was used upon the head of the inmate ? "A. Yes, sir. " Q. By Mr. Brockway ? " A. Yes, sir." And again (same page) : " Q. Ever see an inmate struck over the head or across the face with the handle of the'' paddle more than once ? "A. Yes, sir. XX " Q. About how niany times in all have you seen them ? " A. Half a dozen times — six times." And again (p. 3104): " Q. ^^^^at was the handle made of ? " A. Hickory, I believe." Ex-Keeper Winnie testifies (p. 2669): " Q. The blow from the handle of the paddle could loosen a tooth? "A. Yes, sir; certainly." Keeper Sample again testifies (p. 3118) : " Q. I ask you how many in aU, what per cent of the 800 were, while they were receiving this punishment, struck over the head by the superintendent with the strap or across their face yfith. the strap ? "A. I will say five per cent. " Q. What portion of these were struck with sufflcient severity to cause the blood to flow from thpir noses ? " A. One per cent." Ex-Keeper Halpin testifies (p. 29l3): "Q. You state that you saw blood in the bath-room on two or three occasions; do you know whe their that came from the nose 9 "A. From the nose." And again (p. 2914): "Q. From the nose caused by a blow aoposisi -the face? * "A. By a slight tap of the strap — by the bloiw of the strap across the face. "Q. And by a blow of the handle of attrap? "A. Yes." Floorman Spencer testifies (p. 3170): "Q. Did you ever see any bruises upon them? "A. I have seen them where th.ey have a little black eye." Captain of the Mghtwatch Bickie tesitifles (p. 3247): ''Q. Did you see any bruises or marks upon him, indicating he had received severe punishment? "A. His nose might ha^e been bleeding a little; I think that it was." And again: "Q. Did you see Mr. Bnockway upon those occasions strike any one of those inmates over the head with the strap, or across the face? "A. Yes, sir." ' The foregoing testimony, taken in connection with that of convicts and ex-oonvicts and others, makes the evidence on these points both cumulative and conclusive: I. That very Ijrutal treatment is inflicted upon any copvict ' wlio resists tie sjpanking, or wlio isi slaw in disrobinig! for it. In such cases, two oi^ more powerful 'assistants sei'/.e tlic! man and usuaHly throw him to the marble floior, where he ils kicked and pummelleid intO' subjection, the blows being given on the fa;ce, in the head, or in the stomach, or anywhere that can be reached. This is diome in the general superintendent's presence and with his tacit approval, and is a regular practice, and constitutes a part of the punishment. As td this we quote from a few witnesses called for the manageirs. ;'^^ < i The geiiieral superintendent testifies as follows (p. 209): "Q. When would ^ the bioiw from the closed fist of the officer be given? "A. While the patient is on the floor, usually. "Q. There are two officers there? "A. Two' officers there always." And again: "Q. Where are the bfows delivered in such cases'? "A. Anywhere. 'i " Q. In the face or on the head? "A. The face and head. "Q. The eyes? "A. Anywhere. ''Q. ^Nose and mouth? ■ "A. Anywhere. "Q. Teeth might be knocked out? "A. It is possible a man's head might be injured seriously, but no case of that kind has ever occurred." ,, Ex-Keeper Winnie testifies {p. 2621): < " Sometimes when a man was told to stand up to the wall he refused to stand up; he would jump at one of us^ or' something of that sort, and we would catch hold of him and throw, him do^wn; jump up, and be a free for all fight for a minute, or two, and he would fight, or perhaps kick, or do anything to subdue the man for the moment." * * » And again (p. 2622): "Q. Where would you hit him ini trying to isiubdue him? "A. We never had any particular point we aimed at. "Q. Anywhere? "A. Anywhere. " Q. Head or face? "A. Face. « • *" And again (same page) : ' '.,.■ "Q. Hit him anywhere you could get at him? XXIX «A. Yes. "Q. Wltetlier the face, stomacli or back? "A. Hit him any place." And again (p. 2631): "If a man laid down on tiie floor 1 would not kick Mm, but when he would jump around — bobbing apoaind and striking I would kick Mm with my foot, or upset Mm, or do aniything to quiet him. " Q. Strike Mm, throw Mm down or kick Mm.? . "A Yes, sir." And again (p. 2645): "Q. Did you ever kick him in tbe stomach at all? " A. I do not know, the only time in thils' rough scramble. "Q. You may have done so in the scrimmage? "A. Yes, sir." Ex-Keepet McNish testifier (p. 2758) : " Q. When you struck them where did you hit them? "A. Most anywhere.. "Q. Anywhere you could get at them? "A. Yes, sk. •' Q. Struck them in the face? "A. Might have. " Q. Ever caused a bloody nose by doing that? " A. I might have; yes." The evidence of other oflficersi and of convicts satiisfles your com- mittee that the punishment inflicted on the occasions above referred to was of a most brutal and viciouia character. Further- more, with the force of robust offlcera preserat such brutality was absolutely unneceSSiary, for the tetimony shows that many of the convicts who have suffered it were lads' of slight physique, often weighing leas than 120 pounds, whUe the officers present were always strong, atMetilo and heavy men, weighing each from 180 to 225 x>oun)dS. Thte evidence further shows that kicks and blowis we frequently administered by the keepers upon inmates outside of the bath- room, and when the general (superintendent is not present. •J. That anotheaJ method of dicipline or corporal punishment consists in blows with the open hand or cloised flst given with more or less severity by the general super! nteindent upon the head or face or body of the convict brought -before him in the bath- I'ooni for admonition or punishment. These blows arc character- ized by Mm "physiteal contact." The general superintendent himself testiflies (p. 200) : " » » » Sometimes I hit them a little butt on the wrist or on the shoulder, or even under the jaw, not a severe one; I do not want to be misunderaitood! about this, because it is not a blow, an XXUl irritation or paesion, it is not a blow a,t random, it is an applicar tion, it is the maJdng of "physical contact" between myself and the " patient," as I might call Mm, that ronses hiisi mind to active attention to that for which I wish to confer with him, and brings about the same result that would be had if I had without this sent him over under the window and applied the sfpankimg." And again (p. 201): ",Q. At such times did you regard it as necessary to strike the convict in his face? "A. Sometimes. "Q. How? " A. Sometimes with my open hand a little slap like that, some- times with my closed hand, a light blow. "Q. Whereabiouts in the face? '• A. Anywhere, on the jaw or chin." Ex-Keeper Beach, whose fairness is admitted by counsel for the managera (p. 517) testiflesi (p. 512): ' " Q. Whereabouita in the face was the party struck? " A. On one occasion, if not omi l^oth, the siuperintendent eitrucik him in the mouth, because I know he cut his finger a little on the tooth." And again, (p. 513): " Q. But it cut BroCkway's hand ? « ' A. Yes, sir. , " Q. On his teeth ? "A. Yes, sir. '• Q. So that his hand bled ? "A. Yes, sir; it bled a little; one of his fingers: " Q. On both occasionsi ? " A. I believe so." i The evidence shows that these blows are sometimes given with gi-eat severity, and that the convict is oftentimes greeted with them as he enters the bath-room, and before a word has been spoken to him by the general superintendent. Second. That the number of spankings or paddlings given yearly, as taken from the recorcis of the refonnatory, is increasing very much more rapidly than the actual number of convicts confined in the institution. The whole number of convicts in said institution at the end of each fiscal year since the opening in 1876 is reported as follows: By actual count, September 30, 1876 164 By actual count, September 30, 1877 139 xxiv By actual count, September 30, 1878 248 Bv actual count, Septemiber 30, 1879 ^50 By actual count, September 30, 1880 *°^ By actual count, September 30, 1881 J°5 By actual count, September 30, 1882 516 By actual count, September 30, 1883 *95 By actual count, September 30, 1884 580 By actual count, September 30, 1885 .667 By actual count, September 30, 1886 711 By actual count, September 30, 1887 747 By actual count, September 30, 1888 828 By actual count, September 30, 1889 944 By actual couut, September 30, 1890 1,102 By aictual count, 'September 30, 1891 1,409 By actual count, September 30, 1S92 1,396 By actual count, September 30, 1893 ■. 1,409 During the first five years after the opening of the reformatory, ending September 30, 1880 (at which particular date the -number of prisoners was 482), the number of paddlings inflicted during said period of five yeai-s amounted to only ten (10) in all. The general superintendent testifies (p. 3760) that he paddled '• To the extent of ten (10) occasions during the first five years of the early history of the institution." 'The number of spanlcings or paddlings have been collated from said records for the five years last past, ending September 30, 1893 ; but your committee think from the evidence bd:ore them that these records do not show the full extent of th.e paddling nor of the number of blows struck. During the last five years the number of different individuals paddled or spanked was one thousand one hundred and forty-six (1,146), but, however, many of these men were paddled more than once, some of them as many as ten times; therefore, the total number of paddlings or spankings during the aforesaid term of five years is as foUows: For the year ending September 30, 1889 261, For the year ending September 30, 1890 480 For the year ending September 80, 1891 535 For the year ending September 30, 1892 621 For the year ending September 30, 1893 681 Or a total of 2,578 ' Thus the spankings were very few, only amounting to ten (10) im gJl during the first five years, during which the numiber of XXV ( prisoners was 500 or under, or an ayerage of only two per year. But wheia. in 1889 saidl prison population had inoreaeed toi 944 .tlhe Bipainikiniga had reached 261; and) when in 1893 the populaition reiajdhed 1,409 the spankings had grown to 681. It is aleo to be noticeid thait while the population fbtri the year ending Septemher 30, 1889, was 944, and during five years omly injcneasied about one-half tb 1,409 in 1893, yet the ispankinga in the same time have nearly trebled. Theise spaoiklings are enteired on the recioirdls against the con- vict's name, and inidieaited by the usie of the wordsi "No. 4," aind the number of blows ao-e also entenedi, but designated by (the lettens of the alphabeit — "A" meaning one blow; "B," two blotwisl; "0," three blows; "D," foun blows, efc. The maiximum number usually inflicted conisdis'ted of " L," or twelve blows. The reicord shows as foiUows' (see p. 3803) : 19 received A, or one blow. , 71 neceived B, or two bloiwB. 143 received C, or three blowa 390 received D, or four bloi^. 170 , neceiVed E, otr five blowa 410 neoeived F, oir six blowiSt' 68 received G, or sevem blows. 337 reicieiveid H, or eighit blowsi 64 reoeiKned I, or nine blows. 24 received J, or ten blows. 182 neioeiVed K,, or eleven blows. 577 received L, oir tvi^elve blowa 6 ipecelYedl M, or ithiiriteetn blows. 7 received N, or fourteen' blows. 18 received O, or fifteen blows. 23 dieceived' P, or sixteen blows. 3 Moeived Q, or isievemteen blowsi 11 received Ei, or eighteen blows. 10 neoedved L plus L, or tweii%;-fouri blowa Othera reoeivBd blows variously desioribed as L plus B, L plus F, L plus R, e*c., which will not be repig'artieid henei An analysis of the above list shows that very few men received tihe minimum numlber of blows of one or twoi, the flaivotrite num- bers biedDig four, isix, eight and twelve blows, and that while only eieveaiityj-oaie men received two blows, by far the greatasit numJber, to wit, 577 men received the numibfer of L or twelve blows. The total numlber of blows struck during this peribd of five yeairs footis up nineteen thousand four hundred and nimetjyjsievein (19,497), averaging 7.56 for each spamking. iv zxvi It ifl an extraordiruairy fac*, and a painful one to conaideri, tliat thia enormous amount of paddling, averaging the last year nearly two oases a day, bas been in every case iaflicted by tlue general superilntendent hamiself. An eixamination of tlie figures sbows tbarti this method of punisihment hiais nearily (firebled in the last five years. It does not seem possible to your committee that any human being could inflict upon others such severe punishment, so constantly and in such amounts, without being absolutely brutlaildzed t!hjea'«lby and loHdnlg aU sympartihy with humam suffetriing. Third. Thia/t the laiw governing tramsfena under indetennioate sen- tences has, in the managemiemt of ftihe refoirmaitoiry, been tuimed from its benefloent purposes into a niioeit tleirtrible emiginei of oppres- sion. The evidence shows thaJt 608 oonviota hiajve been transfer- red diuring the fiscal year ending Septemlber 30, 1893, fiom the refooimiatoiry to the State priisonis. Some of tihese men have been transferred mecrely to deair the refoirmatoiry of iita overcrowding; others as the result of chiairges nmde agadneifc tihemi by conviiot officers, oiT on statements extotrted flroan otihieiE oonviotis^ ototiaamed through punishment; and othera again, on aocaumb of fajfllure to oo(nfo(rm to some of the general fiiuperinjfcemjdlenit'si neiquiilriemienrtiSi oar ooming under hia ddispleaisure from ajny canxse. CMet CHerk Osoar Hoppe teetiflesi (p. 3613): / "Q. Oollectiveiy, ithe fact thalt the reformaitory wasi over- crowded was one of the causes which produced a transfer of about fifty inmates from the reformatory to State prison? "A. That is right" The reformatory year book for 1893 assertsi (p. Q. 18): " Inmates of the second grade whose conduct shows no. improve- ment after a reasonable time are temporarily classed as 'incor- rigible;' and, whenever the crowded condition of the reformatory makes a transfer of prisoners to other State penal institutions necessary, the incorrigibles are generally selected! to depart." The peculiar injustice of transfenrinig a convict from the reformatory to the State jwison without due cause under the ilndeterminate sentenice law may require e'xpla|nation. The policy of the State being that young oflendjers shoiuld not be con- fined among old and hardened crimikials, but that they should be Imprisoned by them^lves in what might be termed a great trade school, with a view to their reformation. The trial judge natur- ally conforms to this policy and sends the prisoner to the State reformatory under the supposition that in about one or two years he will be released. If there ■were no reformatory and xzriii ttie judge liad to seaatence him ta State prisoa or the peniten- tiary, 'h.e would sentence him for proibably niot exceeding a year, or fon a very sh.ort time, even if hje did not in many such cases suspend sentence altogether and sieud hirn back to the care of parents or friends, trusting to effect a reformation in that manner. However, ttie young man enters tte reformatory and failing to make marks enoughl in hisi classes, or in the trade schools, or for some other cause, is transferred to the State prison by a vote of the board of managers made upoiu the recom- mendatiou, of. the general superintendent. Once at a State priaioii he must serve out the full remainder of the maximum tenn. for which he^ might have been senteniceid originally, eveu though this is five, ten or twenty years. He thus becomes a felon and loses his citizenship. The tesitimony shows that the convicts are transferred from the reformatory to the State prisons by the board of managers, upon the mere reconmiendation of the general superintendent, and with no examination, usually, into the different cases. In one instance, a number of convicts were transferred by the general superintendent himself upon the individual permission of members of the board, afterwards ratified by a vote. President Wey, of the board of managers, testifies (p. 3689): "Q. It is almost invariably the rule of the board to^ adopt the suggestion of the superinten(ient? "A. It is, in the main. "Q. So that substantially he fe the one that controls! that Bulbjeot? "A. He has to do it; that isi true. It arisesi from, this very fact; under the auperlntendent's direction the whole history of the' man, his progress in school work has been marked out and made out. "Q. It arises from this fact, that the entire control of the reformatory, the entire control over the methods, etc., are placed in the superintendent; you, as a board, pay but little attention to it? "A. The superintendent is like a great schoolmaster whoise recommendations are regarded." The case of Frank L. Wallace (pp. 1244-1257), corcoborated by letters of the general superintendent, and by the testimony of Judge Seaver, of Buffalo (pp. 1257-1270), illustrates this. The testimony isi too lengthy tO' quote. Wallace was sent to the reformatory by Judge Seaver for a first offense for a theft of supposing that he would get out in a year or a year and a half at property of the value of forty-one dollars and fifty cents, the judge, the utmost. Wallace, arriving at the reformatory, refused to give tUe address of hJs parents to the general superintendent, stating that he did not wish, his disgrace to be known toi them. Upoir persisting in this refusal he was taken to the " solitaries," chained down by one hand to the floor, and kept in darkness and on short allowance for seven days in all. Still maiutaining his refusal, he was subsequently transferred to various other cells, kept on short allowance, and at the expiration of about four months transferred as an " incorrigible " to Auburn, where he is now serving out the remainder of the maximum term of five years. Now, the only evidence of incorrigibility in his case is this refusal to disclose the address of his parents. So that this refusal, which is not a penal offense, and which may have been actuated by honorable motives, became the means of increasing the dTira- tion o'f the sentence inflicted upon liim from that contemplated by the court which sentenced him to one three times as great as that court would have inflicted. Thus, he became a felon and lost his citizei^hip. And all this was done, not as a judgment by a court of justice, but merely at the whim and caprice of the general superintendent, and probably as a vengeance for refusing to con- tribute to his criminological statistics. One quotation from Judge Seaver's testimony wiU suffice (p. I2(i9). It should be noted that the prisoner had made the same refusal before him. " Q. If the prisoner had plead guilty, and you had not a refopn- atory to send him to, how long a sentence would you have given him out of flve years — would you have given him the whole term ? "A. Oh, not at all; I would have sent him so he would have gotten out of tlie workhouse — the Erie County Penitentiary — about the middle of the next summer — about a year's sentence." Again, about January, 1893, about fifty inmates were brought before a court, styling itself a court-martial, composed of four members, to wit: An ofScer of the institution, who was then a paroled convict; a clerk, who was an ex-convict, and two other men, civilian offlcers of the institution. This so-caUed court- martial pronounced judgment and condemned ' nearly all of the accused, one witness testifying that but one man escaped unscathed, another witness testifying that eight in all were acquitted. In many cases the accused were not confronted by. their accusers. In other cases, although confronted, they were not allowed the opportunity of questioning them; in other cases, statements used to convict were extorted from the accusers by spanking or other punishments. No evidence or statements were made against them under oath. The head of the so-called court made an oral report of the proceedings to the general superin- tendent, for the proceedings of this court and the statements of xxSs tkf convicts made before it were not taken down ta writing, but only the charges and the names of the witnesses. Upon tMs oral report the general superintendent, with little or no further inves- tigation, recommended to his board of managers the transfer of the convicts to State prison, and as a matte- of fact they were very shortly thereafter so transferred- William Facey, a. coimvict traJisferredl tOi Auburn, testified before your committee at that prison (pp. 1046-1090), that he was brought before that court-martial, accused of certain offenses, and that, denying his guilt and refusing to incriminate others, he was taken two or three times to the bath-room and spanked, until, in fear of his life, he confessed and' incriminated a number of parties, whose names were suggested to him by said court-martial. "NATien he appeared before your committee and was under oath, he , testified that the charges against him were false, and that the names of the parties were extorted from him simply from the pain and fear of the punishment inflicted upon him, and that said parties were innocent of the charges. Testimony taken before us subse- quently corroborated his stoi-y to the' extent that he was punished to compel Mm to testify, and that his testimony thus extorted was used to convict other men, notwithstanding their strenuous denial of the charges, and that they were subsequently transferred toi State prison upon the strength of this' oomfessioo. Some of these transferred men aliso appeared before us sub Auburn and under oath testified as to their innoctence of the charges. Colotael Bryan, the'ptresident of said court-martial, telsitifles (p. 3226): "Q. The court was made up of two inmate oflScers and two oflflcers that were not inmate officers? " A. Yeis, of two who had been inmates'. " Q. Halpin,' was then on parole? "A., Yie«, sir. » " Q. Ho(ppe had been an inmate, but he waei fully discharged? "A. Yes, isir." And again onl page 3194: "Q. Do you remember an inmate that was brought ^before you as a witness by the name of Facey? , "A. I do." And again (p. 3195): "Q. Did he aclvnowledge his guilt when he wasi first brought before yoiu? "A. No, sir. " Q. Did he deny it? " A. He) did." And on page 3196: " Q. It was not until after tkei interview in tlie baA-room witu Mr. Brockway, wteii lie waia spankedi, that he finally confessed? "A. As I remember mow." Again on page 3197: " Q. All you know is tliat upon tiie different ocoasioesi wheu ne was brought before you, before; he was punished, he deniedi that he was guilty? "A. Yes, sir. , : " Q. After he was puniAed then he admitted his guilt? "A. Yes, sir. " Q. Yoai do norti know hotw many timesi he' was punished? " A. I do not" CMef Clerk Oscar Hoppe testifies, as to compelling- testimony fromFacey (p.3620): "Q. Was Facey's evidence material? x "A. Oertainly; I think I have answered! that. " Q. Do you remember th^e four or five that Facey made state- ments against? " A. Xo ; I couldn't recall their names." And again (same page): " Q. If that was soj then, why did you send Facey back to the bath-room twice for the purpose of compelling him to give evidence? " A. Because I considered it necessary for him to give evidence." And on page 3621 : " Q. When you sent him to the bath-room it was for the purpose of either receiving threats or punishment such as would compel huu to make certain staementlsl before you? '■' A. I .sent him to Sir. Brockway with the report that man had refused to give any testimony at that court-martial; that he was putting obstacles in our way of ascertaining the truth about these crimes that had been committed. I made no other repommenda- tioin." And on page 3622: " Q. Wl\at was he sent to the bath-room for? "A. To «bey. " Q. Obey what? " A. The court." And on same page: "Q. What order had the court made that he was refusing to oibey? "A. To give testimony." And on page 3626: "Q. He may have been punished, and you understood he was punifihed once? "A, I underatood he was. "Q. Youi also know that after he had been taken to the bath-room the second time he gave the required statements? "Yes^ sir. " Q. Facey, with the others^ was transfeiTied to Auburn prison? "A. Facey was one of the fifteen or sixteen men." And again Colonel Bryan testifies asi to the second hearing before the general superintendent (p. 3231): " Q. Whether or not that man who denied the charge, whether he was ^ven an oppoBtunity to have a statement made by his aoousfers, the men themselves, before Mr. Biodkway? "A No,' sir. " Q. So that Mr. Brockway, so far as the accusation was con- cerned — the truthfulness of the aocusiatiiion was concerned — had to rely entirely upon this count-martial report; isn't that so? "A. Tha, among which see the cases of Walters (pp. 1460-1484); Dohetty (pp. 1091-1127); Crumby (pp. 1128-1138), and Cohen (pp. 20G4-2090). Sixth. That an examination of the annual reports of the reformatory for the last five years shows from the figures submitted to the I^egislature by the board of managers, a steady decrease in the good results obtained by the reformatory, and we are satisfied that the percentagesi of reformatitomsi stated in said reports' are specious and unreliable. Ihirthermore, said reports contain no allusions whateyer to the corporal punishments visited upon prisoners, but it - is evident that' the intention was to k^ep the knowledge thereof secret as far as possible, for the evidence shows that they were inflicted solely in the presence of a chosen few ofQcers; tiiat the managers them- selves never witnessed them, nor knew the extent and severity thereof, and that the records made of them upon the books of the institution were in cabalistic letters and signs, unintelligible to the general reader. Lastly. It will be observed that thel foregoing flmdings are based almost entirely upon tlie records, of the institution and upon the evidence given by the general superintendent, keepers and other witnesises called on behalf of the reformatory. But your committee has an immense mass of testimony before them, which is herewith sub- mitted, given by the convicts and ex-convicts and others, which not only substantiates the above findings, but convinces your com- mittee' that the brutality practiced at the reformatory has no parallel in any modern penal institution in this country. CONOLUSIONS. The oomoluBions of the committee are: First. That the charges and the allegations against the general supeiv intondent, Z. E. Brockway, of " cruel, brutal, excdssivn degrading and unusual pnndsbmmt of the inmates" are proven and most amply enstalEaed by the evidence, and that he is guilty of the same. V That tha general superintendenit! in punisliing conviotsi by bloiws across tlie face by the paddle, and the handle tliiereoif, not beoause of any offense committed by tkem, but because tiiey happen to turn their heads, often for the puppoise of pieadiijg for metroy, is griilty of needless cruelty and gross inhumanity. That the general superintend'ent permitted and encouiiaged officers and keepers to strike, kick, beat and otherwise practice brutality upon, the inmates, when in his presence in the bath-room, and that therefore said officers and keepei-s were eoicouragedl to exercise brutality upon the inmates elsewhere and when norti in hi^ prepienlce. We therefore find the general superintendent guilty of the charge of "permitting, countenancing and enoouragfing brutality on thfe part of the ofllcera and keeper-s."" Second. That corporail puniishmiemt! as pra'otliced iini the rejformatory should be prohibited by law. Third. That the general medical supervision of the reformatory is inadequately provided for, and that the appointment asi pbyslcian of a relative of a member of the boa/rd of managers should noit be tolerated. Fourth. That the law governing transfers of convicta from the reforma- tory to State prisons Should be amendfed so ael to prevent a recur- rence of the hardship and injustice proven toi have exisited in the management of the reformatory in this respect. Fifth. That the laws authorizing the rearrest of paroled inmateH of the reformatory should be amended So as to preivemt the reinoarcera- tion of isuci prisoners, exoept upon proper judicial inquiry. Sixth. That the system of employing conivicts a® officers, keepers aaid monitors, if continued in the reformatoiy should be amiended so as to prevent the recurrence of such abuses as are eihown td have grown up under the presienit method- XXXV Seventh. The present boardi of managers of the iieformiatory, which is composed of but five membensy a miuiber so small that it admits of no divided responsibility, ahouM have known of the existence of the facts as disclosed by this investigation j and yet the evidence shows they knew little or nothing aboait) tjhem. They were requested by the Uoremoir, at the begiraiinig of thiei inquiry, to suspend the general superintendent pending the samue, which they did under protest. When the prose^cution; had closed their side of the case, and the testimony for ithe managers was only half submitted, they proceeded fa reinstate ^ l iiTHi by a formal vote and resolutiou declaring their continued aaid enduring confidence in him. Thus they have assumed direct respomsibility for his cruelties and inhumanities for which they were before only moirally liable. At the same tiime they have aipparently gone out of their way to offei^ a wanton insult td the executive. Eighth. Thart; the maximum number of convicts to be confined in the reformatory Hhould not exceed 1,000. In the opinion of your committee the reformatory is very much overorowded. Many expertis in penology claim that no reform- atory should contain more than five hTindred (500) inmates', so that the general superintendent sliould be able to have an inti- mate personal acquaintance withi each prisoner, such' as a physi- cian must have of his' patient beitare he can cure him, which personal knowledge he can use fop the attempted reformation of the convict. It is absolutely 'impofeisible for any human being to remember the personal chaa-acteiriettics of one thousand four hundred andi nine (1,409) prisoners where' the population is con- tinually changing. The general superintendent himself testified before your committee that hiiSi "beau ideal" of the maximum number should not exceed one thousand (1,000) or twelvel hundred (1,200). vWe believe that the cruelty and inhumanity that we have found to exist has come largely from thisi overcrowding, as the testimony eihows that when the nimiber of inmaities was but nine hundred and forty-four (944) the amount of spankings inflicted were only two hundred and sixty-one (261) per year, and that when the number grew to oiie thousand four hundred and nine (1,4'09) the spankings were six hundred and eighty-one (681), or nearly treble. It seemsi to usi that this remarkable growth in the punishment and in the severity thereof, for the number of xxxn blows inflicted increased with like ratio, is portlj due tJo th.e attempt of the general superintendent to cope wltih. the question of maintaining the discipline of this large and rapidly increasing number of oonvicts. WMle the number was smaller, and he could stiU Imow the personal chairacterlstiicsi of the convicts, be managed with less punishment, and, as his own reports show, accomplished better resulta But, aa the nujnber of men grew, and it became less and Iciss possible .to knioiw the dhanacteiris of his prisoners^ he substituted severer discipline and more cruel punishment for the personal influence that he could no longer wield. The committee further conclude that the overcrowding of the institution has resulted in an undue amount of licentiousness', owing to the forced doubliing up of the men ia their oella The State Board of Charities evei" since the number of inmates reached aibout 000 has repeatedly advised against the further inrrease in the size of the reformatory, and your committee think tiiat the slate of affair-si disclosed by this investigation has more than sustained the position of the Board iu opposing such increase. Respectfully suibmitted for the committee, EDWAUD H. LITCHFIELD, Acting Chairman. March 14, 1894. State Board of Chabities, ) Albany, New Yoek. j To the Honorable the Legislature of the State of New Ynrh : The State Board of Charities, at its session in its office in the Capitol at Albany, on the 16th day of March, 1894, unanimously adopted the following resolutions.: Eesolved, That the report of the special committtiee of the Boat^i to invesrtigate the management of the State Eeformatorj' at Elmira, presented and read at the session of, the Board on the fifteenth inst., be now accepted, in all things approved, and made the report of the Board to the Legislature, in the matter of the investigation of the said institution. Eesolved, That the special committee be discharged, with the thanks of the Board. WILLIAM E. STEWAET, President. Attest: ; Chaeles S. Hoyt, Secretary. xxixvil RECOMMENDATIONS OF THE STATE BOARD OF CHARITIES IN RELATION TO THE MANAGE- MENT OF THE STATE REFORMA- TORY AT ELMIRA. 1. The appointment of one or more resident chaplains to the reformatory, whose duty it shall be to perform religions services under such regulations as the hoard of managers shall prescribe, to attend to the spiritual wants of the inmates, and generally to perform such other duties, consistent with their\ profession and calling, as will promote the contentment, welfare aJid morality of the inmates, and the order and discipline of the reformatory. 2. That an experienced and properly qualified physician should be required to reside in the reformatory. Prompt and continuous attention to the sick; questions relating to the physical ability of inmates; daily visits to those in conflnenient; accidents of an, emergency character; inspection of the quality and quantity of food supplied; supervision of the sanitary condition of all parts of the iiistitution, and careful examination of all recent arrivals are but a few of the duties which should occupy the whole time and attention of the medical oiBcer. 3. That the managers and general superintendent be prohibited from apiwinting to any office in the reformatory any person who is related to either of them by consanguinity or affinity within the , third degree. 4. That the parole system in vogue at the reformatory be retained, but with such amendment of the law as will permit the fact of alleged violation of the conditions of parole to be judicially determined by a court of recx)rd, and that the return to the reform- atory shall be in the discretion of the court. 5. Being satisfied that gross wrongs have been perpetrated under color of law through power given the board of managers to transfer prisoners to the State prisons for the full maximum term which might have been originally imposed for their oflfense, whereby they become felons and lose their citizenshlpi, and believ- ing that the power to visit an offender with such extreme penalty of the law should only vest in a competent court of criminal jurisdiction. xxxvm We recommend that no convict shall be transferred from the reformatory to a State prison until he shall have had a hearing before a court of record, which snid coiirt shall have full power and discretion to determine whether or not such convict shall be BO transferred. 6. The present law limits the detention of a prisoner in the reformatory to the maximum term provided by Inw for the crime for which the prisoner was convicted and sentenced. Prisoners are thus subject to varying terms of detention; some can be detained for but one year aind others for five, ten or twenty years. We recommend that the trial court shall determine and fix in the sentence the maximum term for Avhich thi; prisoner may be imprisoned in the leformatory, or in the reformatory and State prison if subsequently transferred thereto, the prisoner retaining ,the privilege of earning his freedom in a less Y'^iiod, as un(Jer the present system^ The trial court to have full discretion to commit to the reformatory or to State prison, as shall seem most expedient. 7. EXpei'ts in penology differ as to the use of corporal piimsh- ment as an aid to reformation. The tendency would seem to be in the direction of its abolition. Conceding, however, that in extreme cases corporal punishment may be advisable, or even necessary, its administration should be so regulated and restrioted as to protect the reformatory from any suspicion of its abuse,' and the individual from the eff(^cts of its ill-judged infliction or undue severity. We therefore recommend: Firet. Tliat the In.w prohibiting its use in State prisons should be so amended as to extend to and include all Slate reforma- toiriesi; or Second. That , if the use of corporal punislunent is to be con- tinued in State mule reformatorie:s it shall only be administered upon the judgment of a majority of the board of managers sitting as a court, after opportunity to the accused to be heard in his defense and to be confronted with his accusers. That said judg- ment shall determine the character of the punishment to be administered, and if b\- paddling, tbe number of blows shall be stated. That the punishmenti sihall be administered by a subor- dinate ofiacer of the institution, designated for that purpose by the board of managers only, and who shall not be the general superin- tendent, and that af least two meanbers of the board shall be present to witness each case of punishment. That the board of managers shall record in a book kept for that purpose a full and XXXIX clear statement of their disposition of each case of corporal punish- ment brought before them. That the judgments of ' punishment of the board of managers be published to the inmates in general owiers by the adjutant of the reformatoiy regiment, oi' in some other general and suitable manner before the punashment is inflicted. It is further recommended that the physical condition of each inmate under charges which may result in his corporaL punish- ment shall be ascertaihed by the physician audi reported to the board of mianagers sitting as a court, before judgment of corporal punishment i^ pronounced against him, and that the e?iid physician shall be present at; the' time the punishment is' inflicted. That at the time of puniishmenit, if by paiddling, the peraon of the prisoner be so protected by" a stout leather jacket that no umneoessiairy injury may be done him; that' he be properly secured, and not hoisted in any manner from the ground. That the general isiuperintemident and physiciian be ■required to join in written quarterly reports to the State Board of Charities, duly yeiifled and' made on the first days of Ftebrniary, May, August tod ISToT^ember in eaJch year, showing in detail each case of .corporal pr.nishment for the period named, ai^ giving the date, name of inmate punished, accusation brought against him andl by whom, the judgment of the managens, the nature and extent of the pun- ishment thereaftein inflicted and ini whose presence. 8. The Board earnestly renews the recommendations heretofore repeatedly made in its annual reports to the Legislature, and in the repQirt'S of its standing committee on reformatories, againsit the further enlargement 'on any pretext whatever of the accommoda- tions of the State Refoimatoi-y at Elmira, and as earnestly recom; mends the immediate esta^blislmient and organization of, anothem reformjatory for men, to be located in the eastern part of the State, where it will be convenient of access from the metropolitan district of New York and Brooklyn^ The organization of such new reformatory would lessen the demands upon the present institution, and in a short time decrease the number of its inmates, which isi now, audi has been for a cou'- sida*able time, largely in lexcess both of itsi accommodations and of proper reformatory treatment. The necessity of associating two 01" three inm;ates in the same cell lis a very seirious evil of con- vict conflnemeniti eisipecially with the youthful prisoners of the reformatory. The licentiousness shown to have existed in the reformatory at Elmira., and for whiioh the system of "doubling up " is largely responsible, is so vile as to be almost incredible of belief. xl This Board ia of the opinion and haa lomg maintained thiat the maximum number of inmates of a reformatory should not exceed 500 or 600. The facts developed by the investigation of the special committee fully eustaini the State Board in this' position, yet oomsldeiring "that tihe Stiartje Befoirmiattiory ait Ellmiiina hasieoiitaible accommodatioD] for about 1,200 inmates. The Board further recommendis that it be enacted tJha^t the maxi- mum number of convictH to be conifined' in the State Reformatary at Elmira shall not ecsoeed 1,000, and that if the number of pris^ oners confined in any State refonnatory shall exceed' that number at the date of the passage of the law, that no more convicts isihall be sentenced to such refopmatory umtU its piriisoni popoilartion be reduced below said maiximum. The BoHiTd further reoonoaniendis that it be enaotedl that no other State reformatory, eitheii for males or femalas shall be authorized to receive over five hundred (500) inmatea No such institution in the State except that at Elmira now contains, or is provided with isuita.ble accommodations for more than three hundred and twenty-five (325) inmates. 9. The government of the State BeformatGiry has been" con- fided to a board of five managers, a number so small as to impose special individual obligations upon them and quiasi eiiecutive functions. The evidence taken by the special committee sihaws: 1. That the board of managers never passed any rulesi or regu- lations governing the administration of corporal punishment, notwithstanding the fact that the discipline of the institutioi is confided to them by statute. 2. That in the absence of such regulations the administratior of corporal punishment has been greatly abused and at times ill judged and cruel. 3. Tliat transfers to State prisons have been carelessly and improperly made ini great mmaibers with] liitMe conMdieraJtiloln for the rights of the individuals so transferred. 4. That the son of the president of the board of managers wa? appointed iby them and is the doctor or physician of the reform- atory. An appointment which gihould not have been made. ' 5. That pending the investigation by a committee of the State Board of Charitiies the board of maiiagers, at the request of the Governor, susi>ended the general superintendent, and before the termination of the investigation, but after nearly all the evidence upon which the report of the committee wasi based had been xli received, reinatated tte general superiaatendent, witk a resolutioa of comfldemce ajid, approval, who is now cliisckargiiig' the duties of his office. This action! was disrespeottul to tihe Grovemor of the State, and by it the managers aesiuned full responsibility for th.e l^ast aqta of the general superintendent. In oonsdderation of the facta above specified, the State Board of Gh.aiiti€S kolds the managera priaiaj:ily and morally respon- sible for the various grave abuses found to exist within the reformatory, and strongly recommends th.eir immediate removal. Failure to remove the managers would impair the future use- fulness of the reformatory, and, coimtrued as a condonation of negligence and maladministra,tiaD, might be expected to pro duce far-reaching and unfortujiate results throughout the State. 10. While the inveeitigatiom by the special conunitt^ has clearly proved that tihe general superintendent of the State Eeformatorj- has been guiliy of numerous acts of iujuatice, inhumanity and cruelty to the inmates of the institution confided by the board of managers to' his absolute control, and that his tendency towards such tujustice, inhumanity and ,'cruelty is eontinually increasLng. Yet the State Board, considering that the general superin temdent is the appointee of the board of managers, and respon- Bible only to them, abstains from making any special recom- njendation in^ hi^ case. 11. Notwithstanding the abuses which the State Board now learns with profound regret through the report of its special committee exist below the surface within the State Reformatory, and which could not have been discovered by ordinary inspec- tions, but only brought to light by sueh cruicifial and searching special investigation upon oath as has now been made, the Board is of the oroinion that wisdom was shown. in its establishment and organization, and that there is much to commend in ate practical operation, especially in its educational, technological and military features. The reformatory should be preserved as such under its present State superdfeiotn-, and should not become part of the prison system of the State. It should stand with the eastern reforma tory now projected, and the three reformatories fop women • aih-eady established, intermediaJte between tte juvenile reformar tories om'the one hand and the State prisons on the other. To transform the reformatories into State prisons would be a public misfortune. vi zlu The object of the State Board in making ttie htregoiag recom- mendajtians is to preserve! the State Beforma*ory as such and to destroy the abiisee which hare grown up within it. The Starte Board is of the opinion, that these ajhuses are of a comparatively recent origin in the history of the institution. The foregoing recommendations were unanimously adopted at a meeting of the State Board at its office in Albany, the 16tb of March, 1894. WILLIAM E. STEWART, President. Attest: Chaeles S. Hoyt, Secretary. CHARGES AND STATEMENTS. New Yoek, August 31, 1893. To the Hon. Osoae Cbaig, President Nem Torh Sbke Board of . Cha/rities, The Capitol, Alhcmy, N. Y, : I0 cKMnpldiaince wiUh. tlie amaoianipemeniti iasaed by y0ui om) itihe IStlh. da^y of Augus*, 1893, thaifc all perstons -w|hjo iniay wilsiij tlo niiaike aUegatnoiiiS against tflie ddkciiplimKuiy nDamagememt on? ilnitiemajl or general administration of tte New York Eeformatoiry ait Elmira are imvited to put such afllegaitSlotaB in wiriitliing amid dieiBveiri thje same tlo yiou alfc tihe OapiM, a* Alliiainy, om oaC il)lefoire itlte Ist dlay of Selpitetaiibeir, 1893, the Worid hetpeib-y specificality' cliairgieS: ' 1. Tlhlatfc Z. R Biroiokwiay isi guilty of unlawifuil, unguisifc, ciruel, bnitai ktnld inhumiaiii tireiaftimeinit atn)d ^ceBlsi've, unusual and. degrajdlilng punishinteaiit, ajid tb!rtuife of ilnlina*esi of said New York State refonnatofy at Eimiria, fr-equently prodhicing pennanenit phyisioal iajuries and the miaiminjg, crippling and dSisBgulrding of victfimei flor life. 2. ThlaJt isaid' Z. E. Brockwapr ila guilty of milsWamagemeinit, inieoanpetenoy, incapacity and neglectl im hi* admioMiredibn of the said Ne^\^ York Btate reformatoiiy at Elmiira, toi wit: (A.) In thle inffiotito(n of coippoirajl punlsihimjetnifc ae a penalttyi for umsiatiiisifiaiGitloffy sidhio!llarislhj[{p. (B.) In tiiie miethlGd of gofyepninent feiy imnate kee|pieirts'aiad tihe reigulaJtaiojn of dasciplSnle by ilnaniate monitioire, who are enwuiragied to actt ais 'Spiteigi. (O.) In itihe requiried petrfoomaJnice of daily tasks wMtih are uHtpeasiOinlabie, escesisiive, and beyond physical enduTiaiiice. (D.) In thle inadequate general medical isuperviisaolni of tbe insti- tutiom, gemeral amid spetedlfio negleot of palbietnltlB, ainfl! ejscesBiVe iBBIamity and dealtlh alaltleis. (Nolfie appended, memoimndum A) 3. Thlait siaiid Z. R. Bnockwasy hiabitually violates the laws of the State of New York, 'and knowingly pelrlmitis and encourages the vMiarttidn of law by hia snbbcdinaittei otfficens amd keeper^ to wit: (A.) In the ilnfliotaiotni of coirpioial pumlshment upon Inimaitles in vibla*iK» of seatitotii 221 BiTdiseyie, page 2341 (being sectffloin) 10, dhaipiter 711, Laws of 1887), taken in conneotioii with, sectim 87, page 2317, Biniseye, bietog the law gOTeminig priBODS wherem me punMumeet of thte ctraciifix, etc., amKJ blows were aboldslied. (Note appended^ memioiramldumi B.) (B.) In permitting, countenancing and encouiaging IlamilUm D. AVey, phyeician of said rcforniatoiry-, to violate section No. 88, I)tij;o No. 2317, Blrdseye, being the law governing prisons, wherein it is made the duty of the prison physician to visit prisoners m solitary confinement daily, to examine into the state of such ptisoners' health while in such solitary confln^memt. (C.) In permitting, countenancing and en.couraging officers, keepers and subordinates to strike, beat, kick, bum, bruise or otLi'iM-ise unlawfully inflict bodily pain and injury upon inmates. ■\. Th&t Z. E. Brtickway is gruilty of issuing wUlfuUy false and incorrect istatements and"^ statistics, cunningly devised and tabu- lated, with intent tlo mislead and deceive as to the alleged reforma- tion of inmates of said New York State Reformatory at Elmira. (Note appended, memorandum G.) In further complianoe with your announcement, the World herewith submits sLxty (dO) 's^■rittell slatements in support of the abovre dhargeis. Additional eA'iden.ce is, being prepared The) unsigned statements api)ended are those of witnesses now confined in the State prison in Auburn. Respectfully submilited. 0. H. JONES. Mitor The World. MEMORANT)UM "A." The records in the Clinton and Auburn State prisons and inquiry of tihie prison pKyBfLtedalns will elhow tbaltl a conisidleiriable per- centage of the men transferred from Elmira arrive in distresising physical condition, and subsequent to their arrival, die, become insane or secure special commutation of their sentences from the Governor on the statement of the prison physicians that they can not live. The matter, we are informed, has been made the snl^ jeot of official oaprespondence. The records of the State Insane Asylum for Criminals will show the number of inmates secured from the Elmira reformatory direct. The reiMWis of the superin- tendent of the asylum to the State Superintendent of Prisons do not appear tio agree with Mr. Brockway's reports, as issued annually in his year book. In the report from the Clinton prison to the State Superintendent of Prisons for the fiscal year ending September, 1892, speciaJ attention is called to tke fact thM during the year seven Elmira traniSiferis were sen.t from (limton prison to the State asylum. In the year book of the reformatory for 1887 the number of Elmira convicts released up to date fi-om the ajsylum at the expira- tion of their maximum terms is given as ten; while in the year book for 1888 the number is given as only five; MBMOBAICsTDUM " B." Sectioin No. 221 Birdlseye, page No. 2341, beinig eeotiom No. 10, ,'' chapter No. 711, Law^ of 1887, is to be interpreted in oomieotion with section No. 87, page No. 2317, chapfceiri 382, Laws 1889, being the law govemiug ptrieous, whereini the pun- iehment of the ciniciflx, etc., and blows were aiboiished for the sole reaeooi' that they were regairdled from long expeiiiieinice aa the meveinsie of reifoirimlatloiry, slo that ttie section is in fact an official declaration by the Legislature, wMoh ig. the highest authoirity, that even as to State prdsoms with the highest grade of admuials, such as are tranisferaed from the Elmira , reform'atory as hopeless, the punishment by blows is not reforma- tory disoiplime. ' ' , So that when they enacted in the law creatamg the reformatory that the diaoiplime should be reformaitory, the disciptlinie to be per- mitted is to be inferred from the interpretation of the pirevious section in canneotion with section No. 10 and the deiclairatioiQ as to refoTim. MEMOEANDUM « 0." ' The latest instamce of the offense charged in section No. 4 is found in the seventeenth year book of the reformiatory on page D 5 in 'the following table: / Ratio of Probable Reformation. Whole number paroled (of these 111 were pairoled twice and eleven 'three times) 3,289 Of these there served well and eajmied their absolute release, 2,002 Serving well on parole now ' 1^^ One-half of those lost sight of • 1'^'^ One-half of those disoharged by maiximum expiration 219 Absolutely released because paroled out of the State, ooare- ispondence an;d condnQt maintained for six months or more • • •■• ^^^ One-ihalf otf "tiiose who, being semt out of the State aioA abso- lutely neleiaBed at date of parole, ceased correspaadence and were lost ^gM of , Total 2,689 Or 81.3 per oemb. The ratio of "probable reformation," it will be seen, is calcu- liiled by dividing; 2,089, the whole number claimed as " probaMy reformed," by 3,289, the whole number paroled; but the true per- centage of "probable reformation" (admitting the number of "pr-obably reformed" to be correct, which it is not), should be ascertained by dividing 2,689 by the whole number of men sen- tenced to the reformatory up to the time thkt the table was com- piled. The Seventeenth Year Boob, page D 1, shows that the whole number senteB.oed ' to the reformatory at the end of the litjcal year in question was 5,899, so that with Brockway's own " probably reformed " figures, the true percentage of reforms ^volild be the quotient of 2,689 divided by 5,899, or 45 5-10 per oent. Mr- Buockvra.y'fl divi^r does not inidude the mien tratusr ferred to Auburn and Clinton, prisons, those who died, thoise who were pardoned, those who were transferred to the State insaaie asylum or those who' served out maximum terms. In the firat case of " probably reformed " persons, noted in hie table, Mr. Brockway has taken it for granted that those who " served aacII and earned their absolute release " will not go back to evU ways. It is a matter of record, howe\'er, in Brockway's own books, that many of his graduates are now in State prison. His biographical register, we are informed, will show it ; and if so. he must have known it when he compiled the table. At one of ihe more recent prison congr-esses, we are informed, Mr. Brush, then warden of Sing Sing prfeon, remarked publicly in Mr. Brockway'* presence that fifteen per cent of his prison's pojmlation was made up of Elmira graduates. There are those to be considered whc may have left the State, and those who may have remained and commit^ed crimes at which they were not detected. The aslsump tion of Mr. Brockway that half those lost sight of are reformeid is merely assumption and nothing more. A much fairer assump tion would be thait they have all gone to the bad, inasmuch a« ''those lost sight of" have violated their agreement with the institution to report once a month as to their whereabouts and employment. By violating their parole, "the lost sight of' inmates rendered themselves liable to rearrest and imprisonmenjl at the reformatory. It is equally fallacious for Mr. Brockway tc assume that one-half of those discharged by the expiration of theii ioaximum. terms of inlprisoiimeiit will become good cMzeinR The fact 'tJiat he retains them for that maximum, teim in his institu- tion indicates i^hat he does not consider them fit to re-enter society. An inanatej accoirding to the theory of the institation, iis Bever kept beyond the period when his cha^aicter and geaierail conduct \\arrant his return to liberty. The same method of reasoning will ajjply to the two remaining classes of inmates menitioned in the table as "probably reformed." Arthur P'Leary QSTo. 3009), No. 417 Eajst Fifty-ninth street; sen- tenced from New York for forgery in the third decree, May 7, 1889 ; paroled May 11, 1889. I was made chief derk by Mr. Broekway upon entering the I'eformatory and had frequent oppoi-tunity of witnessing the cruelty practiced there towards the inmates. Among some of the worst cases that came under my notice were the following: Frank Hanlson (1693) ; sent to the reformatory about 1884 and Sfi'ved the full five years' sentence, during which time he was paddled very oiften and spent six weeks in the solitairy ceUj chained to the floor, with but one meal a day. Kdly (1684); a mere boy, whose oonstitution was completely broken down by excessive paddling. After serving four yeaJB and eleven months he died in" the hospital. Dr. Wey gave pneumonia as the cauise of death. Orowley (1698); sierved four years and ten months. He was made so desperaite through inability to perform the task set for him that he poured molten iron on Ms foot and waei laid up for two months. Brockway refused to let him remain in the hospital after the first two days, but made him draw brushes H his cell. Kerwin (1724); spent full five years in the reformatory; was paddled a number of times, and spenlt weeks in solitary confine- ment on one meal a dajy. Faihey (1734); a yoramig toy wlhosei frequent paJdling aad close confinemjent for triydial reporlts oausied has dearth^ four years and sax months 'after entrlance. Cause of deatih, aooordin® to ,Dr. Wey, phltMsffia Faihey was almosib sitarved, wlhiitei itn| sioMltary oooifinementt, and I firequenitS|y ibriouigMi him slices of bread at the risk of severe punishment to myHtelf . NidhloilslotD (1873) ; attempted suaidide when abOiut to be punished Ue cut a gash in his throat, but as soon as it was found that he was not seribusiy injured, Keepers Irwiiing' amid Winne knocked him senseless with a chiatlp. On recoverinig he was locked up, and afterwards paiddled aind beiattieni with fists. i Day (2031); a delicate boy who was severely paddled for his geneiroBiiity in giving tia anioltlhleip inmate a suit of warm under- clotMng. Died afben serving fonir yeairs and TMtag frequenitly paddled. Eugene KJeJley (2112); was comfined two nuomtto in the soatary oeU and paddled daily foo- twelve days for trivial oflenaes. ChimnJiiglDam (2330); bainrlaaded Wa ceU whteni threatened with pimiahmmt and "waa forced out with, hioit ironi toloiks. He was sen* to CllnteQ peimm, eanined Ms commuitaitSioin and is now respeotialbly employed in. this city. Lynidh (2360); wia® hieM for foou' yeam, although appeanmg before eaeh. 'board for paw>le, but was .al-ways hiel,d for further test. Thie plain reasora for Ms diettieiiiltioii wa® ttDat he was itibe supeminitiendeWs barber, and could niott easBly be replaced. Dohjerty (2385); wajs released on parole and put to work as a gnurA; afterwards became school teacher at thirty dollars' per month. Game to New York, siome 'momiths 'a,gio, but bias not yet received the nlinieity dollars due bim for igervices, altlhiouigh be has frequemtly written to Brockwiay about it Smith (2805); was put omi guard duty, while on citizem's parole, , and aiflterwiards came to New York oiity. Bnockway oiweis him tihiiiiity-four doLLars for hSis servioes, but claiknis ithat Smith has forfeited 'it for nmti reporting megiularly sinioe leajving the inistitutioin. > ' ' Huested (2981); taken from his cell at 10 p m. and tmmerci- fuEy beiateu by Head Mgihit Wartldbmam Johu Muiiia, who was drtuik at the time. liaurier (2989); a IVeinloh dook, whb imaniedliatleiy upon hk arrival was made cbelf tio the superiniteinde|nt. Was never required to attend sdhool or onefllgious service, but devoted ihils wboie time to the eniperihiteind'enlt'si kUfcehen. Distelhoirst (3110); paddled regularly for minor offenses and was terribly cut and blackened from blows. Morris (3241); refused to give full pedigree on the entrance examination owiuig to insulting questions put by Brockway and was sent to solitary cell for three months. Brockway invariably asks 'his victims about their mothers and sisters. His quesibioins are most insulting, and his excuse for this indignity is that he wishes to ascertain their "susceptibility and sensitiveness." He h^s a scale running from to 3, and gave the latter mark to a boy who threw an inkstand on his head when Brockway pro- pounded the usual question regarding the boy's sisters. Gartier (3231); a Sbaten Island boy, who through continuous exercise in the physical culture class went insiane. He was toutally beaten by a guard, Berthold, and finally transferred to the insane asylum'. Dotnsey (1479); afteri eeirvilnig a flYie-year naasmmn. sientmoe was held wifflioiut isaQCtioni otf law/andl tpamsiferiPed to 01in*oini prisom, from wMcih hie was promptly disohjaiPged. During his stay in the ref ormjatoiry he was bmtaUy beaten waA some of his teeth knocked out. He has died since hils releasie. Smith (2236); was refused admission to the hospital by Dr. Wey, although dying. , He worked fireit in the broom-shop. For con^ tinuoue petty reports he was regularly paddled. He was confined in a dairk cell nmfeU. unable to walk. He frequently told me that he never expected! to get home alive. He asked lie if I got home before he died t» tell his parents that 'his 'death was due to BTOickway's treatment. His neck was all swollen and on one side so that his head hnnig over on his shoulder, but Birackwiay never allowed him to go to the hospital for treatment. His com- dltiom at last became so alamiing that Brockwiay became fright- ened, and on the amval of the boy's mother from New York a specilal meeting of the board of manaigera was called and Smith was unconditiomally paroled. He died at home soon after his. release. ' Pairtrid^, whose number I have foi^gotteni and who' worked in the printLng offlce, asked Brockway for med^cial attendance, as he was very sick. Wey oirdered him repoirted for malinigering. A half hour lajtetr Pajptm'd'ge dirbplped to the flootr M a faint and was taken' to his cell. He was sick for three -weeks with a fever. He wais never taken to the hospital. This was in the latter part of 1888. ', [ Garjniettttl (2110), coloiiieid, wlolrked in the! hlollow-wairie shbjp grind- ing sad irona He was paddled on an averaige three timefei a week for not completing hils task. I saw him once returning from the bath-room with the blood flowing from wo^unds in hiS' back inflicted by the paddle. Oonikl'in (2911); isiuffered from hjemotrrajghies; wag colmpeiled to work in thie tin shop at a task that madfe hib' ailmienit wopse. On'ce whien he Wad an ajtitack of hemloirirhJage he wasi refuisled a ' basin, and, when the Mood sjfllled' ion the floor he wasi irepoipteid. At another time, when inMne going to breakfast, he haJd an attack and fell on the floor next to the hleater. Wbrd was sent to the Uosjpitial iteward, who replied that 'it was too early fOr him to- get out of bed, lanid Oonklin wasi ^allowed to Me there for fonty miniates befblre aslsiistanoe was btrOnght to Mkn. When a man was' oonfinied to his cell iSick, no attempt was ever! mladb to cleaU hiis ceLL He was ajlowied to Me thlelre iln alooumulating filth' umlfeil hb was oajraied lOpH deald lOr mianiagedl Oct go back toi wotrk. The fbod lalfi the netPoimiartJoiry was entSinely unfit to eat. I know of a case where a mousie was' feundl inl thie hash by a man, but he ■wiais cotDipelled to eat (tihle tasih; op gO -wSitfaoiu* fdod. - At amxiher tune am undersMrt was fouinid in the hasih. cihiqppen. On anoUier occasiaa a dJeoajved ttootih was found in a mam'si plate. Thie bbaM of mamiageiw never hiaid anythling to isiay in the mJaititef of graiatilng pairoie toi the men. Bitockwiay dictated to^ them and his woixi waa law. I know this 'beciause all the ibusilneBis ipelaitlimg tto the panole of a miam piaslsed thiwragh mj Wanda. Juslb toeffioire the meeting of each boacd Bnoickwiaiy -woiuld call for th^e nepioirtts of the dififerent menj, and he woiuld mark on some a cihieck, whacih slilgnified that thtose men were to be paioled; on othtersi hie wonld maiPk a diffeirienjfc check, which meatat th'ajt the boiaird wais to reftaisie parloie, esven though the ma^ deserved it, aocoirdlinig to the negula- 1 itions of the refoirmiatooy. In this way he fnequiently kept mieni M. the refkMTnatory for .tine maximumi terms, althloiuigh they hiad ^neally eajnoied theilr releaisie long before. ABTHUR O'LEABY. AuguBlt 23, 1893. Greorge Brown (right name withheld) (No. 1880); sent to Elmiaa February 8, 1885. Transferred to Clinton prison in 1889. Beleiased, 1890. AddlresBi: 258 Sevemth avenuei. " Pot the flrat nineteen months of my eommitmenit my recoird was fimt-class, but I finally had two manks on myself for faUiUg behind in an impossible task. One day Deputy Warden Winnite, Head HaUman McLaughlin, Hallman McMsh and the yardman, Barry, ordtered me out of my cell. I knew I was in for a beating, and as I knew the terrible treatment received byotherei, I had a tfiTor of whart was coming. I refused to leave my cell. Tlhey stuck into the ceil an iron rod with a two foot hook on the end, heated red-hot, and poked me with it. I tried to "defend mysielf with the bed, but my clothing took fire, and the iron burned my ' breast. My breast is deeply scarred to-day from the bum. They also had a shortened hot poker, which burned my hands. I have those scars, too. I flnally surrendered, was handcuffed and taken to the bath-room. I asked Brockway if I had nbt been punished enough. He laughed at me, and said, ' Oh, yes^ we have just fixed you up a little, though.' With that a hook was fastened into my shackles, and I was hoisted off the floor. I got half a dolien blows with the paddle right acroBS the kidneys. The pain was so agoniz- ing that I fainted. They revived me, and when, I begged for mercy, Brockway struck me on the head with a strap, knocking me iUsensible. The next thing I knew I was lying on a ooit i!n thje dungeon, shackled to an iron bar. This was about 2 p. m. I stayed in the dungeon that night and the next day shackled, and received only bread and water. The foUoiwing day I was again 9 hoisted up and beaten, retiiirned to tke dungeoa, and after one day's rest, beaten again. Then I was put in a cell in, Murderer's Bow, wheire I remained for twenty-one days on bread and water. The doctor did not see me, and the terrible burn gave me the greattest agony. I had no medical treatment. Dr. Wey did not come near me. Wheoi I went back to the foundry I was too weak for my tasks^ but under threats I managed to puU through. " Some time after this I was ^ent to the dungeon for thirty days for chewing tobacco. I got only bread and water, and developed dysentery, and, the doctor as a joke gave me some stufE wMch nearly mined my stomach. They' called me a fakir and laughed at my plig'ht. ! '' I could tell you hundreds of instances of brutality worse than my own. It was a common occurrence for the keepers to strike the boys. Often when a man went to Oflflcer McHenry with a complaint, he was kicked off the stand, with the exclamaltion, ' Get to heU down off here,' and the man only escaped a siavage kick by ninning. Brpckway is the cruelest man I ever met, and has sur- rounded himself with ex-convicts and roughs as assistants. ) " GEORGE. BEOWlSr, " 356 Seventh avenue." WiMiam Parksl; alddlress 1.31 Mott street, sent to Elmira refo!miato*y March, 1885. Transfert-ed to Auburn October, 1885. Keleasedi January, 1889. " When I went to Elmira I was assigned to the foundry, where the work is very heajvy. The flrat day I friund the work too hard and was esamiiiied: by the doctor. I told him that I haid a weak back, ^nd they put me in' my cell with two chalk marks on my door, which meant that; I was to be pnnished the next day. I was taken befoire Brockway. He asked me what I wanted. I told him I wanted lighter work. He said: ' I will fix you,' amd ordered me dragged to the bath-room, vpihere he paddled me himself. Then I was remofyed to the dungeon and kept there on bread and water for three daya They said they would make me do the work or kill me. " The fotuirth day I vras taken back to the foundry. After that I was axjcused of hiaving tobacco^ and when I denied it^ I was struck in the stomach and knocked down. When I was going to dinner that day, I saw the principal keeper waiting for me at the door with a big stick in his hand. I thought he would km me, and to get away fnom him I rani up to the third tier. I was headed off theTfe by Keeper Meddaugh, now) in Auburn prison. I coiuld not get any further and was afraid to. turn back, and hardly kttowlng what I did I jumped off the third tin- to the flagging 2 10 below. I was senselesa after I S'truck, but I have beem told tJiat tOie pTJncipaJ keeper kicked me severely while I was uniconscioTis. Both my legs were broken at the anklesi, and I was caught by th.e collar and hauled 200 feet to the hospital door. There a prison orderly was directed to examine me. They tried to stand me up, but I fell on my face. It was some hours before Dr. Wey came to me. I was iu the hospital four month®, and was tt-amsfeTred to Auburn ajfter I had been seven momtths and a half ini Elmirai, and there served out my term. I had no difliculty tni gettiug alouig in Aubum, and got my sihoirt time. I am crippled for life. "WIIxLIAM PAUKS." GhjristJam Rhodes (4174); adidrieBlB Ifo. 138 Newell street, Bnooklytn; sen* to Elmira, Septennlbeli', 1890; disclhlargeid MaiPch 8, 1893: " I was first paddled after I had been in Elmalria abtoujt eiglht momftlhis. Under the maPldinig system fbr cooidiuct, lajblor aiid situdy I reoeiineid three blows across the black; two moathis laJteri I was called up again for the same offense, anid was greeted by Browk- way as I emtered the barth-rooin, with a blow in the mouth with Ms clenched fist. It loosened my teeth, so that thejy afteiwarlds had to be taken out, ainld sent me staggering acrossi the room. This time I received five blows with the paiddle. The thiiirdl timie I was paddled was on Septembier 17, 1892. I got seven or* eSght blows that I counted and then I could not count amy moire. My back was so aooce and covered worth welta that I had: to Me on my belly for five or six days. I had so.me trouble in Jamluary last witth an Inmartie officer whJo hiaid bteen maMnjg repoirtji againlst me. I tdld Mm my time was nearly upi a^nd thiartl I did not caire how much more I was reported. He repeated this to the colonel, and I was chaitaed up in the solitary over Sundlajy, and bronghit befoire Brockwiay in the biath-aioom Monday nOon. Brockwajy blaokenled 111 y (^ye for me, but did not paddle- me. When a man is paddled he is generaly nMjdie to stand against the wall with his hands as far up on the windowTsiil ajs far ais he can neach. Sometdmes he is strung up. He has to turti' hiis face to the right fllnd, look the principal keeper in the eye while Brockway piafldieis. If he moves his head he getfa the paddle aepoisis the face or anywhere thait Brookway can hit him, and if he drops his head or Ms hands even in esihlauHtion or shows other siigns of collapsing the poSncipal keeper braces him up with an upper-out in the face. I have seen men who had been paddled before and become so ftighltenied when they were taken to the bath-room for more punishment that they could mot walk thjsire without help. I saw the man Clare carried fnom the biath-iioioni to the hospital after he had been nearly ' \ 11 kUleid there, and I mm DouglaBa (5328), carried fl?oim. tShie feath,- jnoom. to Ub GieHL " OHEIS. EHODES. "AiiguHf! 23, 1893." Eugene Kelly (2ll2). "I was sent to the Elmira reformatory in October, 1885, Some time in 1887, while working in the taru^ shop, I was ordered /by. Keeper Phelps to remore some waste that was under my bench, and that had been put theine by the man behind me. I told him that the waste did not belong to mfe, when he punched me in the face. I struck at him in self-defense, as I dodged the blow, and the next minute Phelps, Gardner, Hugh ' l«-ockway and Warren jumped on me, OTerpowered me and carried me to my cell. The njext day I was brought to the bajtln^oom, where I found Superintendent Brockway, Principal Keeper Beach and Keeper Winnie. I was handcuffed up against the wall and jiaddled by Brockway until I became uneonacious. When I came lo, 1 was laid on a slab and afterwards taken to my cell, where I lay for two days on a diet of bread and water, twice a day, before Dv. Wey came to see me and sponged my wounds. During that time I suffiered intense agony. Alter I I'e'coveped I was put in the tailor-shop. Some time later one o[f, the oarpentertsi named Thomp- son said 'to me: '■' A box was made for you, ' this side up with care,' to be shipped to your folks in New York. You'd bettdr look out for youipsalf.' "As Thoanpson made aU the boxes in which the dead bodies wiTe shipped froan the reformatory, I understood by this that my death had been expected. "In i890, while drilling with tl^e military class, I was unable to! go on the double quick as fast as the rest of the boys, owing to weaknesis. My captain, an inmate named Woods, asked me why I did not get around as quickly as the other 'boys. I told him. ,it|hat I couldn't, as I was too weak, and he said: 'H you don't I'll knock your head in with this aword.^ I said, ' Go and do it.' '' 1 was then taken to my ceU, reduced from the first to the third grade, and kept on bread and water in solitary confinement for forty-two days. , "I afterwards, through good behayior, became head hallm^n, and ba,d charge of 420 men. In that position I saw men taken to the bath-Toom every day to be paddled. When the noise of the mfm sicireaming was so loud that it could be heard by people out- side the prison walls, Brockwa,y would order the steam tum,ed on in the bath-room to deaden the noise. " I know of the case of James Garey, whose right name was McGee, who was paddled daily for about three weeks for the 12 offense of tallcing- in the stop. At the end of this time, he was taken to the hospital, wheine, after two weeks' conflnement, he died, Brockway gave the cause of death as consumption. I knew Carey before he came to Ehnira, and he was a strong, robust boy. While I was head haHmam, Thomas IVIaloney was brought to the reformatory. He was a weak boy, and was at once put in the physical culture dam. He often, complained to me that he could not stand the hard work in the gymnasium. " One night, after Maloney had been there for less than a year, he called me to his cell and asked me to get the doctor, as he was very sick. Dr. Wey was not in the reforaaatory at the time, so I sc-nt up to the hospital steward, who was an inmate. The steward refused to go to him, and I rang up Mr. Brockway and told him that the boy was dying. He ordered the steward to go to the cell, and the latter gave Maloney a sleeping potion. The next day, «hen Keeper Phelps went to the cell, he found Malomey dead. When the coroner's inquest was held the same day, I was told to keep out of sight with my ha.llmen, by one of the keeperSL '• I am wiUing to make affidavit to aU of these facts." Statement of William dinger (Not 2104), of Oadroi,ancisco now, and Dr. White, at the Long Island College Hospital, about the condition of my right side. Dr. White told me 1 would have to undergo another operation. I consulted' Dr. Smith, of Binghamton, N. Y. He, also, said that I would have to undergo an operation. They all told me that my eicknesB was due to the fact that I was struck with the paddle. Dr. Smith! performed an operation on me at his residence. Since then I have been operated on three times by Dr. GrifiSn, of Hudson, N. Y. Various physicians and surgeons whom I consulted have informed me that I would have to undergo an operation at least once every two yeaiPS. I do not believe that I can stand any more. Mr. Brockway is the direct cause of my physical disability. He has made me a cripple for life. If I die to-day I know that he is the cause of my death. He would then be guUty of murder. "WTLLiEAM OLESTGEE. "Augu'st 22, 1893." ^ i George S. Acfeermlam, ooniSeoutive No. 1004, Bent tloi ElmliiKL refonmaJtory, I>ecem.bie!r 3, 1881, b|y Eeicorder Smytlh, dSischiairgied June, 1885. AdldlreBs, No. 304 Bushwiok avenue, BpoOiklyoQl: " Whlen I larrived at the ref omnlatbirjy, I waa plaoeld in iihe stetddnd grade, wilth the undeirlstaniding thajfc I would ble put in finsti grade in six monthia if I eartaed isix straigihit nSmesi. I tried hlai^dl toi do so, but aH in vain. When! I isiuoceeided! iii peiflfoictming my task the task was ilnicmeasieid, so thiait I conld nbt do ilt Fop thils I was led out of the sihlop by Beach, thienl the principal keeper, intb cell No. 4, fipom which I was taken to the sloJitairy, Htrippied and hiung up on an iroh sitairway. In this positilon, I waJsi beaten with a rulbben hose untBl I was unldolnlsioibus. I triled to beg for mercy, but the only mericy I got wasi a punch in the jaw from the pdtaiciipial keeper. It was Bnotokway himsielf whio uBted the hose on me. I was punishied Sleverlal tunetg i!n this mamaen; atametSimeis two or thiree tames a week. Afteii I hiad received seiveiral of these 15 beataings, I got m thiat ai f eiajr wfliqld ooiae over me w'Mle I was at work [thatt somaelblodiy wials after mie, oTi thiat I wla^ goding to be puBlil^ed. WWeta thiesle f ea)rs oame, I wooild begin to tremble all over, afnid would! faiUl dtownl er hauled off anjd struck me fuU foirce with his clendhed fis*, knocking me from the stand, wMch waei abbut three feet above the floor, biackwards upotni my tock. He knocked out six upipter frotnit teeth' by tWe blow, m tliJat Dr. Wey ihad to- pull lihe stomps. After he was tlhlriongh, Mr. Brioickwiay paddled me, Ithen threw me inito itihe solitiary for three weeks with' twio riatitons daiily of buead. and wiateir aaid hia^ once ai week. At the end of thiree weeks I came froni tlie solitary almost blilnded and half inteianie. I often golt on my bted' and turned on: the gas with the bumler in myi mlonth!, so asi .tO put myself beyond the, biruitality of Bitoickway. OH, dleajr sir, ywu can nX)t imiagine the miteiery we had to undergo. I was in the Kitag'a County Htoispital, 'at Flatbusih, a greater part of the time fon four yeairis 'after my nelea^e from the Seforanatory. Someltiimes I would be out for a few day8i,-butt I aliways had to go 'back. TIhe do'ctoirs often asked me if I ever had a fall or met with, an a;ecident to account for my coniditilonL I was also exjamined at B'ellievue Hospital, in ISTew York, by Pnofessloir Dianiai, and Pitofesisioir Hammond. I frequently suffered wtiile in Ehnira, from tlirie'dinesis 'and weailmesis iki the small of the black amid about the Iddneyis, and sometimes Wad to' give up while stand- ing over my vilse. I lam prepared to meet Brocfcway ffeice tO' face, -even if I Wave to saerifloe myself to slave othersi from Ms deistei'citive hJaUdsi "GEO. S. AGKERMAN." Walea H Duniham, sent to Elmira September, 1888, for forgery, released May, 1891: " The only punishment I ever received was being placed m a solitary for thirty days on bread and water. The punishment was for not doing my task. It waS' an impossible task. I knew ■of a greait many others who wei-e punished. I saw a man, Ben Blanchafrd, taken to the bath-room, wlhere the punishment was aJdministered because he would not tell wWere he got some tobaloco' 16 thsxb wais found on Mm. Wh.€!ni h.e caime oiuitJ l^W hiSi eyes were blackeoedj his bax>k was Wacfc and blue -witih weitB', and was bloody wihere the skin was birobetQ. The paddling had been] admin- istered from the shoaalders dowtn beloiwi thJe small of the back. He oanld not lie on his baick for some time afterwiaird. " Lynidh, consecutive No. 3411, 1 saw earned out of the bath'^roomi, where he had been sent for punisihmenit, by two keepers;' one 'liad hJTti by the shoulders and the other by the legsi Hi® face was aJl out up and his eyes blajckened. He seemed to be unconsciotus. " Tenney, consecutive No. 3674, 1 saw hit in the face byKteeper Sample while taking rations from the table, where they were kept. Instead of taking the pan next to him he reached for a larger pan. He was aJso sent to the biath-roota- om maoce thjaai one oocasion, and as I roomed with him I uisedi to see his woiunds after ho came oiat. There were alsoi marks on his face 'at times where he had been' hit with the paddle. " Clear, the young man who has brought a suit against Broickway, I saw in the hospital, and several times after he got otut of the hpspital I saw him walking about the yard on crutdhes. "Wilson had his eyes all battered up. He was punish;«l for the same offeuBe that Clear was — for, taking out exiaminiatiOin papers from the printing office. " King, comisecutive number 3141, who is now deaid, I saw afben he was paddled. His back was all miarked up. • There wiaa 'an inlnate named Scott who was found with tobacco. He daimed that he had found it. Brockway didn't beHteve k and tried to pound a confession out of him. He was horribly beaJten and reduced to ithe third ^aJde. Afterwlaird iBrookway' d'isoowered that he had made a mistake and that Scott was not guHty,' and he restored him to the intermediate grade. '' There was a little fellow niamed Ford, comsecu'tlve Na 2271, I saw him chalked in to be punished. Keeper Sample reported that th,eire had' been smoking in his' room. He was taken to the bath-room, but as he was to be releaJsed from the reformatory he was not paddled, as Brockway neven liked to send men oujt from. the institution with m'airks on them. After he -was taken from the bath-room by Keeper Sample he said in reply toi something. Sample had said to Mm: 'Well, I am going hlomie to^mo!r^otwl, they can't paddle me any more.' Sample had in his hand one of the big oeU keys. They are about seven inidhes long and weig'h several ounces. Sample raised this key and struck little Foord/ right under the right eye. It cut a deep gash that bled very' freely and left a scar that the boy cajrried away with him, " I saw a man named Spencer pom" molten metal into his shoe purposely, so as to! burn his foot. He had told me a few days 17 before tihis that he was going to do^ it, saying tihaib he was being paddled nearly every day for task shortage in the founidiry, and that as his task was impossiible and there was no prospect of the punislmient ceasing lie pneferred going to tlie hospital with a burned foot to -s\ioirking the foundry with the prospect' of piwl- dlings. ' There were a gi-eat many others in the foundry wlio foumd it impossible to perform tlie tasks aillobted to them and who were paddled for it. " Disitelhiotrst was a little fellow Who was paddled frequently for trivial offensjes. He had a. black eye nearly every week. This Mvithout exaggeration,. Brockway told me once that he had Mm a.s an example for other offenders. "Tlhefre was a main whose name I ciam not neciaill, but others there remember him, , who wajs subject to epUeptic fits. ' At first IJroclvway tbought he was malingering, and he was taken to the bath-room and punished for it. Dr.- Wey also accused him of malingering. I do not suppose any of the inmates saw the pun- ishment inflicted on bim in the bath-room, but there, were plenty who saw his face (myself among tbem), after he came out. He 'had received a ho-nible beating. After this he was placed in thie gMnnasium, and Dr. Wey saw him nearly every day, and learned he AAas not malingering, but that the fits were genuine. " One of the gneat eviUs of the institution is the practice of piut- ting the inmate keepers in dhiarge of otbeii inmates.- TlheyhWe absolii'te power to reidUpe men in griaJde or to have them paddled; their wofrd is taken against any number of men under them. To th.e fact that inmate keepers bave keys to the celis is due to a con- siderable extent the great prevalence of sodomy at Ehnira. "WALES HENEY DUNHAM, "127 West Forty-seventh street, New York." Giabrlel M. Sachs. AdldlneBis, 281 Market stireet, Newark, N. J. St'Ut to Elmira, June, 1887; transferred to Auburn State Prison June, 1890; discharged April 3, 1892. Grand larceny. "J have pleaded giulty on condition that I should be sent to Jliaira. On my arrival I was put on hall duty, and had to clean the balls and serve other inmates with meajs. My duty gave me a chance to see how things were carried on in the cells an,d inthe bath-ffloiom. I was placed under Hall Keeper Murphy, a convict, and, of course, had to obey his orders. When I had been there three months. Murphy told me to steal a new hair-bruish and to swap it for a plug of tobacco. I stole a brush, for I feared Mur- phy, a,n^ put it in a cell. It was found there an,d reported to Mr. TJrockway. He at once reduced me to convict grade and ordered me to the bath-room. I found him there with Principal Keeper 3 18 Winnie and two otter keepers. He asked me where I got the bnish, and I told him I found it, for I was afraid to give Murphy aAvav. " 'Found it, heih? IV^und it? How is it we camPt fluid siuch thinjis around here ?' •'Without another word, Brockway struck me as hard as he could full in the face, blackening both my eyes and knocking me ■down. Then they made me strip the lower half of my body. They put handcuffs on my twists and triced me up to the bajrs on a "vcindow. " ' Turn your head, you,' yelled BrocKway, who wais at my left; 'turn your head to the right land keep it there. We'll make a man of you or kill you.' " Then he beat me with a leather paddle. The pain was terrible. I don't think it could have been worse if he had run red-hot i^ons into me. I counted eight strokes, when I fainted. When I came to Brockway cursed me, and aske^ me again where I got thait brush. I told him I found it. T was then sent to the solitary cell, where T wa« fastened by a ring around my waist to a sliding bar on the floor. Each day in that cell I was given one slice of bread and a half pin.t of water. After two days I was taken to the bath-room, strung up and paddled. I counted five or six strokes. " •' Where did you ge|t that brush, heh ?' yelled Brolckway. ' Will you tell now, heh ? You wUl be crooked, heh.' " I could stand the agony no longer, and I told htm Murphy told me to steal it. Murphy was reduced to the third grade. I was sent to the l^'rush sihop, where work was hardeslt. Foiu" or five men out of thait eihop were paddled every afternoon because they were physioally unable to do their tasks. In the fall of 1888 the military wais organized, i wais' put in the first company, under Captain Tait, who had a personal hatred for me. Men in the companies were forbidden to speak to their superior ofBcers. Captain Tait said to me, 'You are talking there.' I said, 'I am not.' He reported me for calling himi a liar. I was put in the lowest grade and paddled. Then he locked me up for nine months on short rations. I was not permitted tO' take a minute's exercise. "By becoming licfcspittl© and hypocrite, by m'aking all kinds of promises, I was put in the tailors' shop. After six monithis' of perfect record there I was raised to the first grade. After four months more with a perfect record I went before the board of managers and asked for a parole. They held my request for a further test of conduct. During the three monitte that passed, before their next meeting, my recond was perfect. I reappeared 19 tefoire the board, and at Brodkway's siuggestioni my parole was again postponed for further test. I lost all heart then, belleTing that I was treated imjustly, and that my efforts went for naught. ■ I did not oare what became of me. One day I swore at Tait, abd for this I was paddled with a rubber hose. Brockway and Winnie punohed me all over the biath-room. Yooi cam eee for yourself (here the witness opened his mouth) where the teeth were that they knocked out. They put me again in murderers' row, as We caM. it, om half riatiians, laind ketpt me theine for six moaths. "At last, I got into snch a condition that I Icoew I waal goinjr cleaji maid. My cheeks were sunken; my eyes were hollow; my body was as thin as a rail. I demanded, to be tfken before the board of m'anagers that I might ask them to transfer me to State prison — me, who hadl pleaded guilty that I mig-ht be sent to the reformajtoiy. I believed my physical and mental condition scared ■ Bi^ckway. He would rather transfer men^ to Auburni than have them die oni his hanxte. IJe let me go beftotre the board. Old Dr. Wey, at flmst, refused my request for a transfer. "'Behave younself here,' he siaiid 'and you will get along all right.' "'Doctor,' I said, 'I have been trying to do right for nearly three years. I had fairly earned my parole. It was kept over twice. Poa? pity's sake let me goi /and finish mj^' time.' " I was tranisfeirred to Auburn prison in June, 1890. I wa0 in very bad condition physically. In the twentv months I was in ' l^-uibum I eiamed four momthsi for gt^od conduct. I beli'eve I am a better man to-day than any of those who m'ade life a hell for me : in the El'mira reformatory. ) ' " GABEIEL M. SACHS." Joseph McBridie, No. 3074. Sent to Ehhira from New York, July, 1888, for larceny in^ the secondi degree; served three yeairB and eight months. "Noyy living ;at No. 728 Ninth avelnue. " I was sentenced ta Etoira," he said, " in. July, 1888, and while there had many opportunititeis to observe the running of the inistitutiioin, as I was working on the guajrd-noom floor or buisineiss ofii'ce for some time in 1890. " There .^as one coloired' man whose niame was St. Clair, that had a very severe absoesis on) his neck and complained of being unable to work. The mian istoyed in his room on Molnlday morn- ing, wheii the tagte sounded' to unlock the dloons^ and when the doictor came at 10 a. m. he chased him out, anidl siafid that he was malingelrtng, giving him a flust-olaiss ^repoirt, which meaaiit the loss Of one mouth. But when the dinnier hour came "the man stayed in Mis room again, and was dleiad in the moaminig before the dOictor aarived. 20 "Another case is that of Huomas MJailootey, whose righft name was MtiMwvni^v, of the IV)urtteieailth. wajrcl, New York. He was recelTed at the Tetcammborj, in 1890, and died in a few months of ill tnrartimeliit, and without medical attenidamce. I know of this mam going to the doctor, day lafter diay, with his complaint (fever and inttenise headaidhe), and being unalble to partake of food that was allowed a man in tojis'griade, he was failing very fast, but he goit no siaitiisfiaictiom from the doctor or isupeiintendesnit, and was allowed: to die iini his cell. The numibieiP of the cell it 453, south extension. His father had his body taken home and burLed, and gave a startMng detsioription of the fate of his son, who a few months before was the picture of health. His father lives in this city, lapd Ms staitemeiDrt; can be had ia a very short time, if neora- sary. His 'address is No. 36 Grianid street. "Another case was that of James O'Brien, No. 2879, who was uranercifidly paddled. He wais paddled several times to my knowledge, and in one case haid to be taken to the hospital and have Mb wounds djresiseid by the doctor. He wais put in solitary confln)em'enit fifty -nilne days, and would probably have been kept there longer if his maximum had not expaned. " Tenlney (8794) was unable to dio hia itask in the foundry, and was paddled every other day f6r sieveral weeks. I' hajve seen ihim come ouit of the bath-room with one of his eyes closed up, as from the effects of a blow. "Another case is that of Glare, who had to be taken to the hospital after a paddling he had received, and kept there for weeka The Kev. lather Bloomer, of Ebnitna, had an interview with Clare while in the hospital, and to the best of my recollection, had the case exposed in Elmira shortly after. " There was a gnaird there by the name of Burley, who had been discharged because he expressed his willingness to make an affidavit as to the treatment Clare had received. This man^ is now working as a brakeman on the Delaware, Lackawanna and Western railroad. "I was sentenced in July, 1888, and had to stay there for thi'ee yeairs and eight months before I wasi allowed to go. When I first went there, I was placed in the brush-shop, making brushes, until the Yates law went into effect. So far, I got along vers' well, but then the military regiment was formed, and I was placed in the seventh company. I got along there fbr the first week all right, with the exception of repoarte^ but the second week I was paddled until I fainted for replying to' a commis- sioned officer when spoken to, and I was then placed in the third or convict grade. 21 " I was wiorkJing on the guard-rooim floon ab the tiine, arad sitayed then; until tlie Faissett bill pawed, and was tiken placed in tite fonndtty as a nioider, with, a task of eighty-eight mioids of good casjangs far a day's woipk. At that time my weight was 127 pounds, anfi from living on bread and water, it was not very long before I wtas completely run dmvm I complained to the doctor, but it was of no use. It was the same old case. They called it mMingering. I would' stay in my room in the momaaig until the doctor came, and then he would ohaisie me out to work. This went on ftoir abomt mne days, umtil I was compelled to> sit down in the fouiidiry and wait foir the dortoir toi oome. ^ ' " My hands anid legs were all swollen; my eyes were sunk away in my head and looked like oysters, and, on the whole, I never expected tc« see the outside world aigaam unless isometihing was done ait once. " The doctor ordered me to my cell, with itebmotioiis to lie diown and be quiet. I did lie down, and it was three mo^nitihs and two -weeks before I got up out of bed. Then I was put to work in thfe yard for a couple of daysi, but -nas too far gone to sitamd on my feet any lenlgth of time, and had to gW back and lie down 'again. -TMs, 'however, was for a few days only, amd v^en the doicffcor thought I was able ttoi try again, I wasi placed ia tJie physical torture (culture) class for a few^ monitto unta I was able to eat. I was then placed in the foundry again to^ 'put up the same task as before, but failed. Then I wasi made a coremiaker And continued that for the rest of my time in the foundry, which was very eihort However, I miaide a perfect record for the first four months, and was taken out and placed in the trade school. When, I left there fifteen monrtihsi ago, I was unable to work, and"^ was allowed to go home in order to build myself up. The food at Elm Ira, was very bad. The hash was frequently isiour aind the coffee was simply burned bread put in an old saicte that had been fliscardod by the stable men, and boUed in water. One day I saw a pan of hash served to "the men "at the band table, of whicii Eanfcin had ohiarge. Bankin found two mice in the hash and returned it to the kitchen. For this offense he received a report. '' There are many inmates of the reformatory to-day who are being tortured and worked toi death. One of these men is Ooioke, No. 183'2, who was sent to Elmira about the begitaning of 1885. IJrockway tells Cooke that Ms sentence is ftor forty years unless he can make a perfect recolid. " Oooke has been there now nearly nine years, and the only thing tha* keeps him from making a perfect record is his inability to acco'mplish his school tasks. 22 "Amotiiep tustanoe is that of Mlcliaeis, No. 277G, wihx) tried once to escape from tlie reformatory'. In punishment for this Brock- way had t^vo heavy iron balls, weighing about twenty pounds, riveted about his ankles for three uiontkss. During that time h.e had to work eva-y day in the oabinet-sihop, without ever being permitted to bathe or take off his netker gairmentis. " JOSEPH MoBKIDE. •' August 21, 1893." , (Jideon J. Hare, 402 West Thirtysecond street, city, said: > ' la IfciSG 1 wafi employed by the Cheney & Hewett Iron, Works, ot (ireenpoint, L. I., who had the contract to do the iron work of the new east wing of the reformatory. I was at the reformatory off iind on for about three months, and during that time had acii'ss TO almost e\ery part of the building, and consequently saw what A\as going on there. I have seen inmates taken to the bath room in squads, sometimes as many as ten at a time. I lia\e heard the screams of pain, and saw them come from the rmjm hardh able to put on theii' clothes, their backs covered with \\\lt:^ fi-oin the effect of Bro'ckway's paddle. The flesh was raw. 1 triiw (me of the men carried out. The ironworkers were quite near to tJie bath-ixxim, and we could hear the screams of pain every day for about an hour and a half. ' I remember the case of one inmate, who had been given a clu'v of lobacco by a bricklayer, and had been detected. He was ttiken to the bailnroom and paddled, then sent toi the solitary cell, np to the time of my leaving, thx'ee weeks later, he was still thcTe. I have seen an inmate stmck over the head by a keejier in the shoe-shop. He used a« a weapon a long stick with a licavy iron ferrule. I have frequently seen the inmates in the yard and the shops who were scarcely able to inove around from rhc eticet!* of the paddling which thej' had received. They fre- (luenily sliowed me their backs and sides, which were covered with- tla- marks of punishment. One inmarte in' the haondware shop., whose body was eovei-ed with raw bruises, begged me to get hiTn seme ointment to relieve his pain, for which the doctor would, do nothing. > - " Gn)EON J. HAEE. " August 24, 1893." Jacob Shinsky, Xo. 2461, aged 25, of 121 Lewis street, was sent to Ehnira from New York for grand larceny on November 27, 1886, under name of J^cob Myers; transferred to Clinton, June, 1889^ and released June 20, 1891, af^ter earning six months' commutation. " I was paddled once for talking; received two blowa Another 23 time, when I was unwell and tinable to finish my task, I received three blows and fainted. Winaiie kicked me ta the side, and when T was nearly nnconsicions piclced me up and threw me down on the ground. All this time McNish stood over me with a knife, to stab me, I suppose, if I oiffiered any resistance at aU,. Brockway several limes hilt m,e on the head. I. tried to do weU and had five nines. I only heeded another nine to bfe put into the highest gmde. JE , .found, however, that the keepers were down on me, and Brockway would never give me any satisfaction because I, tried to oonceal Di.y real name from' him on entrance, in order to save my family from disgrace. ~" s '• One day while cleaning the hall I saw McLaughlin aud Winnie liurn a man out of his cell. He had refused to come, out to be punisliod. They poked long pieces of iron that had been heated into hie cell, and I could smell the burning rags and hear his cries of agony. ■' There was one little boy named O'Brien who was very weak' ijind could not do his tajiks. He was frequently paddled and often ( omplained of the hard treatment, whi'ch he said was Idlling him. "JACOB SHINSKY. " August 26, 1893." Alfred Field, No. 203 HeOry stneet. Sent to Elmiipa, June 7, 1890, un^der the namue otf Alfred Johnson (No. 4075), PajPoled Augasit 20, 1892: " I worked in the hiall mibslt 0(f my tSlme at Elmira, and was a ■ wBttoeisis of .the buiming of imniatle Ounlnlinighiam, who was forced out of his cell with red ho* ironls. " I kniofw of a number of ciases where men who were really sick wetne cmmpelled to go to work by Dr. Wey. On one occiasiom a man whio had been, thnsi compelled to work while sick was found dead in hiis cell. The names I have forgotten at thite moment. "One day I quarreled Mvxih an- inmalte named Hughes (4198). We were both taiken to the bath-room and severely paddled. While 'being paddled, I happened to turn mjy head aind' received a blow, iu the month feom Brockway, which Hnocked out three of my firoot teeth. 1 "AI/FEED FEEM). "August 25, 1893." Haiitold W. RoBienthal, adidreiss, care G-. Edmund^ Iffo. 219 East Eighty-fifth sitteet; isent t6 Etoiifla, December 12, 1891. PaJitoled March 25, 1893: . ^ ^, ^ " I never received any physdlcali tineaitjmeiiit in Eloniira. I had a perfect record for fbiur mohlths, 'amd made the blue suit at the 24 end of sis and a tolf momtihla I warn kept back f<^ a monitii because I would nott risk my life on a ladder. I was derailed to paint thie outside wiaJl in dtairge of a keeper nlaimeid Foley. He ordered me tio cUmb on the ladder up to a windjaw-sill, whidh. was flvie feet above ^tilie top of the ladder. I got up and stood not only on the top round of the ladder, but on the > vexy en'dis' that rested agiajuist the wall. Then I conLd* get just hlalf of my hand on the window-sdH. I told hn'tn I could nioti dOi it. He isaid there was no snch wx>rd' as ' can't ' in the refoirtaiatoiry. For a failure to get Ola the window-sill I was kept behind iu my recoird, land put in the fonndTy. While hi the foundry I was prtmiotied to the rank of first lieutenant in the miMtairy. During the month' of Februarty, 1893, Ool. Hialpin, then piineipal keeper^ put me in charge of thte uphoilstery shop store-room, toi put a sitiop to the evil practices amon^ the inmatesi I remafflnied thfere until my parole. The system of inlmate officers was responsible for a greaiti deai of tiie vice. »Chere were paroled offioerte in the halls and inmiate officers not paroled on the galleriiels. Theiy- had keys to the cells, and both classe.s of officers, as well us'' tlie men in their charge were in league ^vith one another in their evil prac- tices. Some of the cellsi were known just as well asi the regniiar public house is known. Many of the inmates were absolutely shameless. Young boys newly arrived' were always preyed upon. ■' Tobacco wonld do anything. You would give tobaccioi tO' the librarian and he would give you the latest magazine; to the laundpyman, and you would giet clean socksi; to a keeper and he would not report you; to an inmate teacher, and he would fix up your examination papers. The rule agaAnst the usie of tobaoooi, a viO'lation of which was always severely punished, wasi at the bottom of half the cruelties' perpetrated there. There ^\■'as scarcely an inmate of the institution that did not regularly see some evidences of cocuelty. It was an every-diay occuTlremce to see men oome ont of the bath-room with faces disfigured, disoolored and bleeding. p]very military day, i. e., twice a week, every man in the regiment can see the candidates! for punlsihment taken into the bath-room and see the squads coming out- limping and marked up, and sometimes with bleeding wounds. I saw Faoey. who was so badly beaten, before he wasi transferred tO' Aubura. His face looked as if he had been through a mill. I reme'iixbcr several other cases of cruelty. "All the time I was in Elmira I was teaching olasses in lan- guages and arithmetic. One day the superintendent asked of uw' teachers to think of some scheme to' reduce the number of men iu the convict grade. I siuggested noti reducing them for marksi in their studies. He replied, ' We can't doi that; we can't do that. 25 They hme got tlo pass tihieir exaimiiiiaitiomi ' I can state my wior>d tiliat many men in my olaeses could not get along because the4 studies were too far advanioed for them. I told ^liiool Secretary Van Etten seven'al timeis that oentain men w'ere olasBied too high, and he would/ reply that they were fakirs, and that after they had been in the batlh-foom a few timeet, they wflUld be able to get along. ' - " Ttore is no man that goes' thiwugh that institution that dofes not cnrae it, and those who sent him thei^ There w no such thimg as refooftn at the reformatory. Honest meh can not get out of there. You hare to be deceitful and broolsed to secure your releasie. The tables' which Brodiway has in his annual repiort, purporting to, sihow the pei*centaige of piisioners refomned by him, oam be piroYfin tb be moansensie. "HAROLD W. ROSENTHAL." Ohajrilea Briajmst, 2882, address, 407 East Mfteemth. shreet; sek to Elmirai February 10, 1888. Released February 9, 1893. "I was put to work in the broom-shop on my arrival in Elmirai,, ' My first paddling was received after I ihiad been there two' weeks. I igot itiwieive or tlhainteen welte foe putting wrong stock into- my broom by mistake. When taken to the bath-room and ordered to strip I refused. Brookway kicked me in the stomlach, knocking me dolvn. He and his keepem kicked and paddled me while I was dowm any place they could hit me. My knee breaks open noi^' at intervals from one of the kicks I received! The second time I wais paddled wasi a,bout 'six months la1«. That was when I got the Scar ove'r my left eye. | Under the torture, I had turned to asik for mercy, and Brpckway struck me across the face with the paddle. . i .' " I was paddled altpgether twenty-five or thirty times, generally for talking. ISTot ome-eixteenth of the reports on which I was paddled were true. The reports were made by inmate offtcers, who had td make a considerable number of reportR or lose their shoulder straps. '' I have a lump back of iny ear, and a scar on my ear, wMch I received in the coiirseof the severest punishment I got there^ which was far assistting Micbaiels, 2776, to elseapa lamsweredtohisiniajme when the loll was called in school. I was put in, the solitary over night, and in the morning, Principal Keeper Winnie came around and said to me, 'You 11 wish you had never been born when, you get through with us.' Then they took me to the bath-room, and T !jot aboid fifteen raps to make me tell who was implicated with Michaels and me. I refused, and they brought out Michaels and paddled Mm to make him tell. He would not, and they brought 4 26 nit> back again. I was stripped naked, and they gave it to me from my eyes down to my toeg. I was blinded so tbat I could not see for tJiree days, and there ajre small marks where the skin was torn oil all over my body. After they were through with me the second time, they succeeded in getting a confession from Michaels, and then they beat me again for not telling. " I know of several cases of cruelty besides my own. In 1888 a man was chalked in.'-cell 603 to wait for punishment. He com- mitted suicide through fear. Another man named London, who, I 'think, is in New York now, attempted suicidg^ by hau'ging in Ms cell by bed sheets, because he was fearful of being punishjedi. That was in 1889 or 1890, I think. A case that caused a greait deal of talk at the reformatory was that of a man who, about 1890, was talcen sick and laid in his room. He was in the physioaJ culture class. He complained to Dr. Wey that he was unable to leave his cell, but the doctor ordered him out three days in suc- c(!8)^ion, complaining that he was malingering. On the morning of tlif' foui'th day, the man died in his cell. The talk about the reformatory was that while the man was dying,, they told him that they wtre going to put him in a blue suit and tranefer him tO' tlie first grade. I told a carpenter named Conley, who was working in the institution, about this case. Foster, in the physical culture class, is one of the men who told me about it. Head HaUman Muri)h3 knew of it. I know of the case of Harry Day, whO' was paddled and put in the solitary sometimes for a month at a time. It broke down his constitution, an.d he got so he could hardly \\alk to his work. They kept him at work till a:bout two weeks before he died. I know of other cases of cruelty. " CHAS. BEAMST." Joseph Smith (2805), .reception office, city hospital, BlackweU's island, New York. Sent to Elmira November 30, 1887, under the name of Robert Smith. Grand larceny, second degree. Parole authoi-ized October- 25, 18SS, and again January 25, 1889, but owing to failure to secure employment parole suspended until April i, 1889, when he was made an officer. Left Elmira August 8, 1889. " I had no trouble with Brockway duiing my term as an inmate or as an officer of the night watch until on August 3, 1889, when I asked Brockway to let me go to New York city on, a cheap excur- sion. I was then a paroled officer, and had saved sixty-seven, dol- lars, which was in Brockway's posseission. Immediately after asking Brockway for permission to go on the excursion^ I was locJced up in murderer's row, and kept there umttl August sixtih. I wore citizen's clothes at the time. On the latter darte I was brought before Brockway, who told me that I was not fit to be a 2T /. keeper, owing to my lemlemcy to the men wh.o had been inmateB w ith me. He asked me how much money I had saTM. ' I told him sixty -seven doliars. He saLd, ' I will give you thirty-three dollaps, and hold the rest as an anchor. Yon may go to New York, and if you need the money I will send it to you. If you can't get work Clime back.' " I wr«fte to Brockway on December 15, 1892, ftxr tihie money due me. I haid been 'steadily employieid nip tlo that time, bnt was thlen out off work, and needed the moojey. I received the followSIng amsweir: " 'Yours of the flfteemth received. . This is pretty cool, anwway. AccordilDjg to a reisiolutibini of the board of managers, paslsed Jajnu- ary 1, 1890, you 'are liablJe tb be rettumed for faSluirle to repoort. You have now aboiut twia yeato more to serve, I take it if it were not for the fact ithat the pniBlOn is aLready overcirowded wiitih just isuch slcamipa as ]yoiu are, I woiuld sand down lajnld have you lacked up.' " It wala custbmiary for Hea|d Mght Waitchman John Munn,, to borrow money from the paroled guiards umdier bliim, and v^ho were thus examptied from, reportisi froml him. I giave Mm, at diifferienit times, Slums amoumtSng tio fifteen dollars. « JOSEPH SMITH. ' "August 24, 1893." Michael J. Ouriiey,) No. 421 Ea;slt N'imeteenth ^sbheest, entered Elmira February, 1879, for assault, and was paroled May 30, 1881: " I worked in. the Ijjaridware shop witth Htzsimtmotnsi, the inmiaite who afterwards MMed Prinicipal Keeper McKelvy. We were empilfoyeld in! griiniditnjg fceftti'es, atad our task wasi gradually inicreased untal it was 125 kettleB a diay. It wasi abeolutiely impossible for us tb do thfils, ajnid after bteihg frequenttlljy paddlM with Timothy McOarlthy, John Smith, Milchael Wallace, oitiher inmartes empHoyed in the isame dejjairtimeint, were put in solitary comfimement. We were kepffc in comflnement fbr sieyi* montthis, chained to the floor, land welrje taken out and paddledl ataoistt evetry other dlay. Brookway someitfimeis gaVe ai man ai choice of being paddleid or dropped ibtlo a tub of boiling waiter. I have gone through IMS latter punishraenit, and my body Sitill bear® the marks of it. I wias also subjected to the shower-blath, which conisiBts of sit'atnding umideT a flow of water untai the doctor, who hlolds your pulse, diecid'ed thaJt you could noit isitaind amy more. On several occiasdloins, when Bnockway's arttfcenrtiioni was' callied' to the fact ttat I was not crying when he was paddling me, he would put salt in my wouuids. Aftfer the seven months of soltary oonflnement I hajd to be sientt to tihe hiospiltai. My eyes hajd been nearly 28 blinded from wounds which I had received in, the head from. .L>ix)ckway, and an operation was necessary. Then I did hall duty for a few days, until the time of my release. While I was in solitary confinement my parents came to see me. Brockway came in Li'fore them, patted me on the head, and, while my chains were ly.;ing taken off, said: ' Don't say anything. We will have you out in three months.' When my parents c^e in I told them of the cruelties that had been inflicted upon me. Bitockway shook me of|; v;ith the remark, 'That boy is crazy from .sielfnabuse.' I eutei'ed the reformatoiy with pei'fect physique. When I left I was quite deaf, almost blind .and walked on orutichesi. I was in such i\ bad condition that Hugh Brockway ^escorted me all the way to Jeirsey City from Elmira, and delivered me to my parenitis. I was not able to do a stroke of work for nine months after getting home. I still suffer from deafness, and my body is covered with, wounds from Bixxskway's paddling. My eyesight is still bad. When I came home an operation was necessajry for water on the hi-art, which the physician told me must have been caused by hard work oa* punisihnient. I was one of twelve inmates who testi- fied for Fitzsimmons in his tiial for the murder of Prdn.cipal Kfi-per McKelvy. Before we left the reformatory to go to the court-house, Brockway came to us and said: 'You are going there to-day (referring to the court-house), but do not know where you will be to-morrow.' When we came back we were given- to understand that we were going to be badly beaten. One of the twelve, Henry Eeddin.gton, became so frightened that he hung himscdf during the night. The rest of us were terribly paddled the next day. ily body still beans the marks of "that paddling. For oi'.e year of my .'^tay at l^llmira the inmates were fed on nothing but mush and molasses and coffee witliout milk and sugar. While I was in the hospital, just before my release, Thomas Maney, on.e of the inmates, died there. My mother had jusit sent me six new undershirts, and I gave one of the undershirts for Maney to be buried in, and when Brockway heard of this he sent for me to the b.itJiroom and I was paddled thirty-seven, times. One of the inmates named Malone was hung up by Brockway in his cell for punishment. "V\%en Brockway passed by the cell during the day Malone asked him for a drink of water. Brockway opened the cell door and struck Malone in tjie face and said, 'Drinlt your blood,' and left him there. Malone ^as taken down at dinner time, and shortly afterwards, when^ some of his companions came up, they found him dead. He had hung himself. ( " MICHAEL JOSEPH OURLEY. '■• August 25, 1893." 29 , Cornelius Hoiiliiiau, 165 East Tliirty-first street, sent to Elimra - under tlhe name of Thomas CallaJian (1926), March 15, 1885, rob- birry and assault; transferred to Auburn, June, 1890; released December, 1$92. " I was flpst ]nit to work 'in the office, and was there about two ^^ eelvs, when I wais accused of giving a file to a man who attempted to escape. I was paddled and knocked down bj .Prockway, and then sent to a solitary cell, -where I was chained to the floor ^^ith nothing to eat for ten days only a f>int of water each. day. At the end of that time I was taken, to the bath.-rooni and paddled til] I fell exhausted. ■ I was then put to work in th.e foundry, but ' was too weak to do my work, and in consequence was sent to tie solitairy cell, after being hit i^ the face by Brookway. I was sent 'back to w^ork, but could do nothing, and had to lie in, for two days. Again I was sent to the foundry, again I was unable to do my work, and was paddled for two days for the same ofEense, rour' months later I struck an inmate named Henning, who was continually annoying me, and Beach took me inito the hall and hit me on the head witlh his heavy stick. I bled a great deal, and in that condition was taken to tbe bath-room and paddled. I was then left in my cell for two .weeks. At the end of that time th.ey sent for me to go again to the batli-room, but I was made so ■ desperate hy fear that I barricaded m.j cell door and th,ey got niP out by setting fire to the bed witih red-liot irons, and then bu'.-ned my legs and arms. The marks^are still on my body. '•I was kept forty-flve days in the solitary cell on a slice of brcjad andNwater, ;Jor not telling Brockway the name of th.e inmate who had given me a chew of tobacco. I was working in the foundry the day before my transfer to Auburn, and ruptured myself, and when. Dr. Wey came to see me he said, 'You -will die a sudden death/ some day, Callaban.' The same day Brock-way came to see me, and told me that I was to be tfansferred to A (iburn. ' We could not kiU you here,' he said, ' but I guess they can do it at Auburn.' " COENELIUS HOULIHAJ^." ■ Michael Coyne (40241; sent to Elmira May 1, 1890; burglary in tlhe tfiird degree, paroled December 9, 1892; present address 791 G-ates avenue, Broioklyn. " I was paddled the first time at Elmira because I could not do my task, which was to sew tw"enty-nine umbrellas a day. While 1 was being paddled 1 looked around and Brockway hit me twice in each eye. As a result I have lost the sight of my right eye and that of the left is greatly impaired. I was punished daily for three weeks until the doiotoir was called in. He^said that it 30 was impossible for me to do tte work aesigned to me. Suoh beattings did I receive tJiat I fainted many times amd then was picked up and thrown into a large bathtub of watw. In addi- tion to the loiss of my eyesight I suffered from a verv severe kidney trouble as the result of the paddling on my back, and since my release I have suffered a great deal. I went to Elmira a strong, healthy boy, 17 years old, and came back a total wreck, and now have to depend upon otheiis for support. When Brock- way hit me in the eye once he said: 'Is^ow, you young devil, you can go to bed.' It was tiiirty-six days before I could siee any- thing and since that time I have not been able to read. While I was lying in bed, Brockway and Dr. Wey came to see me, and Brockway said that unless I got well soon it would be cheapeo^ to bui'y me than' to feed me. At another time when I went up for an interview he asked me how long I had to remain^ and, when I told 'him eleven months he asived: ' Oam you live it out? ' I told him I was trying to do the best I ooiuld and hoped to go back to my parentp as soon as I could. He siaid, 'Well, you are likely as not to go back in a vrooden overcoat.' After I had been rendered helpless by the brutal treatment I received I wais sent to Auburn. When I wais almost blinded at Elmira and the pain was sTioh that it almost drove me insane, all I had to eat was bread and water and sometimes a little sour milk, served in a dirty, rusty pan. They did not put it into my hands and I wiaia oom.- pelled to grope about my cell for it. As though this was not bad enough, the}' often placed a bright light in such a, manner tbat it slione against my eyes until I was forced to lie ypMi my face to the ground to escape more pain. " M. COYIsdE. "August 25, 1893." \ WiUiam Doherty (.3002); 336 East Sixty-first street; sent to Elmina May 11, 1888. Paroled August, 1889. " One night I was talvcn ill with cramps, and forced toi scream from pain. I was reported by the hall officer for disturbing the peace, and next day Was taken down to the bath-room and pad- dled seven times' by Brockv^ay. After the palddling I was seen by the doctor, who prescribed for me and advised me to remaiii' in my cell, where I was kept for four days ill. s "WILLIAM DOHEETY, ' "August 25, 1893." Patrick Haley, No. 1724, aged 25, '408 East Sixity-third street; sent to Elmira August 5, 1884, from New York for burglary in 31 the tliiirid degree, uuider the name of Pajtrick Kerwin. Served maxinraml sentence otf five years. " I did my best from the first to get along. I had been there abomt a year "wiheni I was caught with a chew of tobacoo. I was in the second graide then. For punisihnient I was reduced to the third degree and paddled four times. *'My second punishment came aboiut six months laitei*. I was woi'king in the hail, and one of the men on the inside gave me a pair of shoies to exchange fo* tobawciO'. I gave them ixf a man, working in the yard who was trying to malce the tirade with some citizen bricklayer employed there. The man I gave them to' was caught, anid infoirmed Keeper Beach that he got the shoes from me. Mr. Beach asked me where I got them and I told him I found them in the hall. That was Saturday night, and Monday morning I. was taken to the bath-room, laid on ai marble slab, and there Brpickway gave it to me with a strap. I was sent back to the sioiitary and brought out again the next day, when the dose was repeated. I was paddled six days in succession, and the last four days 'tied to the baiis of th(* window in the baithfroom. I used to g^ punished every once in a while after that. " The las* time 'l was paddled was because I complained that I didn't get; a full ration at one of my meals. Keeper McLaughlin took me into tbe bath-room. They never asked me one word. They told me to undfess and I wouldn't Then the superintend- ent, with Keepers Winney, McNish and McLaughlin), got at me. I was knocked down, and when I fell they started to kick me from one side of the bath-room to the other. Superintendent Broclway started la on me with the paddle, and when I turned my head at the first shock he let me have it across the eye. I could hardly siee out of the eye for ten days. , "Some time during 1887 I had a fight with a prisoner named McG-ibney. I was taken downstairs, and the superintendent asked me if I intended to run the prison. They strung me up until the tips of my toes only touched the floor. Brockway stood on one side and gave me six belts ^^-ith the rabber hose. It left welts as big ais your wcist. I was m sore for days after- wairds that I could not lie on my back. " I saw many exhibitions of cruelty to other prisoners while I was in'Elmira. A prisoner named JameB Flaherty was given an impoffiible task for a day's work, and marked several times for not performing it. He told the officer who marked' hipi if he did not let up he'd kill him. Flaherty weighed about 105 pounds. Keepera Winney, MoNi^h and Warren got him. in the hall amd threw him down, and Winney, who weighed nearly 300 pounds, 32 jumped on bis chest. WarreB kicked him. ,He liad to walk with, a stick for some time afterwiirdSL "I was also a witness in tke case of I'ai-kes', whoi jmi)i>«l ^^'"^^ the third tier to the flagging of the court in ordci- lo escape punishment. Both of Parkee' ankles were broken and he ^yaH unconscious. I saw Keeper Beach jump on him and lack Mm, and he was then dragged away to a cell. " Fahey, 2\'o. 1734, was paddled and starved on a di<'l of broad and watea- until he died in the hospital. "John Brown, >'o. !).3.^, had his right arm A\renched off by a- wringing machine whUe I was present. Instead of liaving his tasks made lighter after that, he -nas kept at worli m soon as he wan sent from the hospital, and wa^ conistajitly icpoTte'd for not being able to keep np with his tasks. "Henry Day, Xo. 2031, was n weak little felloAv, who for some slight offenses wa.s kept in the '.rest-cui'e ' for so long that he was po-aotically s.tarved to death. I omce gave Mm some of my breaid and was flogged for it. Day was takefti to (the hospital a/t laist-, and as he was going away he said good-bye to me, and told me that he Ivnew he would ne\<^r come out of it alive. He died tliere. " I am willing to swear to the above sitatement. "PATRICK HALEY." -Tames Keegan, Xo. 2521; address, 105 Cherry street. Sentenced" In Eliuiia refoi-matory by Recorder Smyth for robbery, January 9, ISST; released January 10, 1892. '• The day after my airival at the reformatory I had an, inter- \iew A\itli ilr. Brock\\ ay at his office. He asked me where I camp from. I answered, ' From the fourth ward.' Brockway punched lue in the face. Then he repeated his question, and I replied, ' lYom Clieiry street' Brockway struck me again. I was put in the lirst primary class, where I was kept for five years. I was sent to work in the brush shop, where I worked for a period of nine mouths. " 1 ^as paddled the first time March 17, 1887, because I was unable to do my work in the brush shop. After I hkd been, chalked in, I rubbed the marks off my door, and went to work as vsual. iTincipal Keeper Winnie came to the brush shop, and struck me in the nose. He kicked -me down stairs, and I fell. I could not get up. I Mas helpless. Officer Warren came along, and kicked me while I was lying down. He pulled me up by my hair and stood me up against the wall. Then I was taken to the bath- room. Brockway asked me why I had rubbed the marks off my door. 1 denied it, and he struck me in the inouth with the handle 33 of the paddle. I was handcuffed, triced up, and received twelve lashis with the paddle. Upon leaving the ba/th-room, I found a pii'co of gieen ribbon, which I tied to my coat. Officer Phillipig assaulted me wliile trying to take the ribbon from me. I had a fijlht with Phillips. Two other officers came aad knocked me sense- l"s.«i. 1 was taken to the bath-room, and after I came to again I wiia I handcuffed and paddled by IJrockway. He knocked me senseless. Wheal I awoke I was in cell No. 139, in. murderer's row. I was kept there twenty days on bread and w;ater. The last night E was in the cell I was taken sick, and asked to see the doetoir. Otheer Jack Munn gave me «ome powders to take. The follow- ing day T wenit to wor]i in. the foundry, and there Officer Munn told me that he had mixed bedbug powder with the medicine he had given me. " Altogether while I was working in the foundry I wais paddled twenty- nine times. I was paddled three times bne day, and twice andther day. Once I received forty-one lashes from Brockway with the paddle. The offense was fighting. Dr. Wey was present in the bath-room at the time. After I had received the twenty- nine lashes, Brockway had me put in a tub of water, and afta* leaving it received more lashes. When I had received altogether forty-one strokes I was bleeding, and Dr. Wey instructed Mr. Broclvway to let up .on me. '' One day when I was to be paddled I put the iron bedstead against the door of my cell so tliat they could not get into the coll from without. Officer Winmie and Officer McLaughlin took two long bars of iron and forced me out of my cell. They kicked me down stairs, and took 'me to the bath-room. Brockway had' nio cTjained hand and foot to a marble-top table. He paddled me with a rubber hosie until I was senseless. I had to be earned to my cell. Four days later Halpin came to me and told me to come out. I asked him what for, and he said it was none of my business. I said I would make it my business. Then he struck me. 1 caught his arm to defend myself, and he knocked me down. t managed to roll over him, but before I got up Keeper McLaughlin .stniok me over the head with his club. I was taken to the bajthi- room, my head bleeding from the wound, and paddled twenty-flve lashes. Then Dr. Wey took me to my cell and sewed up the wounds of my head. T was sent back to the foundry, but asi I foun.d I could not do my work T deliberately poured some molten lead on my foot and had to be sent to my cell, where I remained for five months on bread and water. When T gpt well agai^n I was sent back to the foundry, but found it imi)Oisi- slble to do my task, which was the molding of 100 grindstone shafts a day. Then I was sent shoveMng 5 34 who heaWd me make thSIsi e:^lanation, said, ' If I had been an oflacer I wonMi put aj buHet through your head.' "After that I was put to work ahoivelliDg coal in the finehhole at night, and wiaa petmiitted to chew and. emoke and do aboutl aisi I pleasied unttiLl the tSnie of my irteleiasie. The ndlght befbire my dis- charge I sianig a Song wtoSich annoyed Bnockway, and I was knocked aioujnld and struck by the keepeins. I wias kept at the iieifoirmaitary one 'dlay over ttkne. "I reaniembter the case of a Germain inmate, wihio had ithe oeM next to me, and whjo hung himself o^nie nigbit: because he was to be taken to the baJtih-room thle niext day. "I Saw Keeper Winnie pour nuoltien irion on a man who had conoealed himself in a hole in the founidiry floor in order to escape, atod who had iiefulsied to come out when oaderled to do so by Winne. "JAS. J. KEEGAJSf. "Auguait 28, 1893." John Berkley (No. 2548); address, No. 391 Pearl street, New York city. Sentenced by Eecorder Smyth tcv Elmira refoi-ma- tory Januairy 31, 1887, for burglairy in the third degree; released February 2, 1892. "After my arrival at the reformatory I was 'put in the awkward squad, where I served thirty days. During that time I was repoirted for talking and taken' to the bathnroom. I was hand- cuffed and hoiisited to the window. Then Superintendent Brock- way paddled me five times. "After serving my time in the awkward squad I was transferred to the pipe-shop. I was only 16 years old at the time and unabk 35 to do my task. For thia Brodtway padldled me ten times. The skin was taiken off my right side. Tlie maipk is there yet. " Six mjODiths laiter I was taken to the batih-rooim again to be paddled. After I had been handoufEed Pirincipal Keeper Winnie strack me witb. bis flsit in the face, knocking me down. Brad!:- way thjen paddled me fifteen timeiS. Ttiree months later Brock- \\ ay paddled me ei'gbteen times. About a year after thait time I was paddled, reoeiTkiig twenty laisihes. Upon that occasion I was pnnisbed because I was behind m ajrithmetic. I fainted wihile Brockway paddled me. Offlcers McNisK and McLaiugMin bad tO' oairay me to my cell. I was in the red suit at the time. Brock- way then sent me to tjhe physical culture class. There I remained six months, when I was- aissigned toi work in the yard. " When I was about to be paddled the thirdl time, I was kept waiting in front of the baith-room door, while inmate Murphy (3411) was being taken to the bath-room. H^ was in the bath- room about five minutes. I could hear him cry. When Keepers McNiah and McLaughlin dragged Murphy out of the bath-room I saw that his head was cut and bleeding. " I saw innaiate Joseph Smith taken to the solitary. Three days later I saw him on his way to the bath-room. When he left the baith-roota he was so weak that be was barely.able to crawl along. ? ' " JOHN BERKLEY. "Anguist 28, 1893." James Parks, alias James Manning; addressi, 240 Mulberry sitraeit. Sent to Elmira January, 1887 ; released September, 1888. " When I reajohed Eilmira I was sent to the brush block factory, and Instructor Howard asked if I cooild run a circular saw. I replied that I had never seen one. ' Well, you will have to learn,' was the reply; ' get over there.' He ran two blocks through the machine to show me how to do it, and left me to go to work. Fifteen minutes later my hand was sawed off. My parole was authorized at ,the end of thirteen months by the board of man- agers. As Brookwiay said nothing about it when the time came, I went to make inquiries. Instead of giving me any satisfajction, he istruck me across the table on the guardroom fioor, with his fist, and had me locked up eleven days on bread and water ta the solitary. Then I was told I could not go until I had learned a trade. He kept me till Sep'tember of that year, in spite of the fact that the boaTd of mamagers had aflithorized my parole. " JAMES J. PARKS." ' 36 William Mott (No. 3591); No. 1088 Park avenue, New York oity; sentenced to Elmira, Auguist, 1889, for assault in the second degree; jiaroled December 9, 1891. " M'hcn I ^\ent to Elmira I nndei-stood tliat my senjtence was for tv\ o and one-hialf years, but I was informed there that it was for ijve years. When I went t« Brockway to ask him about it, he kicked me out of the room. I Avas sent to the awkward squad and ^as rejjorted by tJie convict captain for a mistEike in drill. Eor this I A\as paddled without a hearing. Five days, later I was reported falsely for calling the captain a liar. Brockway and a lu'eper knocked me down and kicked me, then tied me up to a window and paddled me. From the effects of this paddling I was laid up for two months with a big abcess. Through neglect this abcess was followed by fistula. It ate away the flesh and necest- sitated an opei'ation. Later I was given an 'impossible task to perform, and for failure I was paddled. My sysitem was' run down; and 1 was so weak after the paddling that I had to be held up A\ hile my clothes were chang-ed. Finally I was placed.in the physi- cal culture clas.s to buUd up, and from there was sent to do' easy ^^'|)rk in the superintendent's garden. I remember the case of Smith, a colored Inmate, whom I saw coming ont of the ba;th-room one day stripped naked, with the marliS of the paddle on hiis body. .\nother case was tliat of McDonald (3583). He wasi about 16 years of age, and not a strong boy. For his failure to do his task in the pipe shop he was frequently paddled. One day Winnie told him that his mother was dead. The same day Winnie kicked him around the shop, and afterwards he was paddled by Bfockway for not doing his full task. There was a boy there named Maloney. I iiave forgotten his number. He was severely paddled one day and then sent to his cell. The next day he was found dead. \ , "WILLIAM MOTT. " August 23, 1893." •John ifcCormick (right name James McOaiTen), consecutive No. 3902; address, No. 142 Gold street, Brooklyn, N. Y.; sentetmced. to ilie FJiuira reformatory by Judge Moore, o(f Brooklyn, for burglary iu the third degree, March 5, 1890; transferred to Cliniton priison December 10, 1890; served maximum term of two years and six months; released July 11, 1892. " I'pon my arrival at Elmira, Mr. Brockway asked me insxillting questious about my parents, brothers and sisters. I informed him that 1 did not lUie the way he talked to me. I wajs put in the awlvward S(]uad, where I sierved one month. After that I was put to work in the tailor shop, where I was employed for ten days. Then I was put to work in the umbrella shop. While in the 37 awkward squad, MaTteh 19, 1890, a gun was broken at drill. Con- vict Officer Valentine reported me to Brockway, saying that I }i^e^^' who had broken the gun. As a matter of fact I did not. I was taken to the bath-room. Mr. Brockway asked me who had brukt'u the gun. I replied that I did not know. Then Principal Keepei- Winnie asked me the same question, and I made the same reply. Winnie struck me with his flet on tlie light ^ cheek. He knocked me down with Ms foot. ]My head struck the marble floor with such force that I became uncoijscious. Winnie threw water over me till I riegained cons'ctousmeeis. Brockway them paddled me, applyilog the pajdidle five tftmes. I wiaisi put m a red isuitti and iSient tb ithle umbreilla ishop. The niest dlay I wlala taketii to the biath-rloom again. I again dieniied know)i!ng the peinson who had broketm the gun. Wimni'e land Hail Keeper McLaughMini knlook^ me down. While I was otn the fliooa? WinMie kicked mie. Hiieln I wasi paddled by Brioickwarf ; reoeiyed five oir six lashes. Whlen I left the bath- room I waia fmiabie to walk srtinaiiight on aiccount of thie pa^ddling I had neciedved. Alslslilst^jit Hall Keepteir MclTiish threw me into a cell. The third dlay I was paJdIdled agajta. WhUe in.' thJe umbrella shop I conld not do my task. The work wasi tooihairldftor mie. I was paddled altoigethiem about twenty times by Broiokwaiy, between March 18, 1890, a|nid Septeimibter 19, 1890. On Septemiber 19, 1890, Brockway sent fbr me. He asked me whether I was able to do my task. I told himl I could not. His ir'eply was that hie had a way to make me do my task. Broickvmy ordered Intmiate Oflaoeffl Haipin to take me ito the ' resit ourie.' I was taken to a cell on thati second grade tier in the first Mock knowni as: ' murdleretrfsi row.' The cdl was a dapk cell. The fumittiire consisted' of a bed, a tJii cu,p and a bucket. I was oomfinied itui that cell from September 19, 1890, untm Decem- ber 9, 1890. Once leveiy two weeklsi I wasi allowed toi take a bath. I was giVeml nio wash-water whole ini the oel. The tier- man empltied. the bucket for me. The meals I received while hi the dlalrk cell laveaiagedl twoi slices of bipeaid amd one cup of water a dlajy. I reoeiTed about two painis of sibnp every week. I was so hnngry that I asked HaU Keeper McLaughlin, one day for moirie bread. The same day I was taken to the bath-room, where Brock- way applied the padkUe to me six times. " When Brockwiay had me trathstfenreld to Olintom prison I was hlatrdly able to walk. While confinied in the dark cell I sent ftw the doctor t\v^ce. He did not 'anisweW to my call. I Wasi veir|y sick at the time. Uiponi my arrival at Clinton' prlislon!, December 10, 1890, Dr. Eamsom, examined me. He said I siuffered from spinal curviattupe. This was due to the pajddlinig Brbckway gave me. I thus inifoirmied Dr. Banisom. 38 I remenil>er iramate Briaidy. I saiw Mm when he oaime out o; t!hie batlhMlotori one day. His faice was cut to pieces'. Tiu paddlikiig I received at tihe luaflildis of Brockway hais made me i cripple. I am unaJble to do a day's work. ; "JOHN McCOBMICK, 3902. "August 24, 1893." George W. Bradford, aged 27, entered the reformatory in Janu ary, 1S80. Paroled April 16, 1890 j charge, grand larceny, eeconc degree. His consecutive number, 1983. At present he is th< manager of a factory, married, and lives at jSTo. 779 Third avenue " I A\a(S put to work in the brush shop, where a man named God dard was once accused of stealing brushes. Goddard wasi pad died by Brockway, and iinally told Mm that I was implica-ted ii the steal. I was entirely innocent, but when I told Brockway so lie only ordered me to the bath-room and paddled me until ; had a faecal passage. The torture was so great that I finally, ii order to escape further punishment, confessed that I was guilty although^ ais a matter of fact, I was absiolutely innocent. Bott ^A'innie and Brockway struck me over the head, and when I lefi the bath-room I had two black eyes. That punishment has had i permanent effect upon my bowels. I have suffered froir chrome diarrhoea ever isdnce, and have at several times been laic up for a week or more with bowel complaints. " One of the cases of cnielty tha,t came under my notice wMle ar iiiiuaAe at the reformatory «as that of Day (Ifo. 2031), whO' wa* charged with stealing some clothes, and on protesting Msi inno cence was paddled b^- iirockaway and afterwards sent to soli tary confinement for thirteen days on bread and water. He has since died, and I believe it was from the effect of the punishmeni he received at Elmira. "GEO. W.'bKADFOED. " Dated, New York, August 22, 1893." Leomce C. Tesitut (2960); address, notrtheaat ooimeir Glenmoipe and Obiriisitopihjefr avenues, Bnooklyn; laelnrtienced to Elmllra refonmia- toi*y, April 11, 1888, by Judge Moare^ for foBgery; pajroled Septem- ber 24, 1889 ; traansferred to Aubum prison, June 25, 1890 ; releiaiSied Septemiber 5, 1892: "After my arTiVal at the refbrmlaltory, I was put to wioirk in. the brush shop, where I remanmed oni&hialf day. The nes± day I was appointed an inmate insittrtuictor at the printing office wMch position I hdd until my pamle. I was reteketa beciausie I failed to comtinjue wtritiiiig to the refqrmaitlolry- TJpiomj my return to Elmina^ Febmiairy 16, 1890, I was put in Btolitairy confinement, 39 whlere I wiEuS ktept om a die* of bireadi awd wajtert for a period of two motntlhk I WM tteunisfeimeld ito Aubtiiini a}tl my olwin rtequesifc. A week before my transfer to tliat prison, was put to work ia (the Timibtreilla elhopu " I memjembfefr tlie case of Smilth (2034). OE© wla» 'employed, in tlhle plrimtiliiig office. He was paldidledi lait am ayeiriagei of thi^eei ox tame tfilmieis a mioiitih.. He was takem tb itihie Ibiattihl-rooom fnom my place. "I iPemiemlbieir Lynicih (3211). He wa® aLsio emplkayed in tlhie pm!nttli% office. Friom tihiere he was taken, to tlie bathL-roOm to be padldled tbree oEf four tSmjes a week. Wfajein I fiirsit met I^cb, be was-iemijoyilng excellent bieialitlh. Whtetn I left tihie instltiution,, Lynich, was a peirlfect wreick physiciailly. I sawi Ihim, bare sitripes om his back, ,d!ae to Bnockway's palddMng. I nemiemibetr his coming from, the 'batlx-rtoOm obe day 'after hiavinig been paidldled. Hi& eyes hiaJd beenl bilackenied. " Kimg (3041) waia also eonpjOyied ini the iprilnlting office. He was tajken from, there on several oocai4'0'i'® tb tlhte! biaJth-troom to be padidled. He was paddled McLaughlin, who returned with a red hot mm, which was puisihed between the bars of the ceU door. I cotuld hear Cunninghiam's screams, aaid ^ell his burning flesih. " THOMAS FLANAGA]Sr." John Davis, oomsecutive No. 1932; sent to Ehnira March. 14, 1885, foo- burglary in thfe third degree; released July 2, 1889. . Address, 857 First avenue. " I !had been in EOmira abouit two weeks when I was' paddled the firs* time. It was for talking. I got eight welts' across the kidneys, and every welt left a mark. I Avas paddled aboiut tiliirty times altogether ftor talking, having tobacco' and task eihopbage. I got stx'uck twice aorosis the face for turning around while I was being paddled. Mr. Brockway T\ould s\\img the paddle towards youi' face, and would not care whether it hit you in the eye or nofc I got it once in the eye, and the eye was swelled up and blackened for some time afterwards. " I saw a good many fellows come out from being paddled in the bath-room while I was waiting to be. taken in. I remember one fellow, named Conovan, who was paddled very often, ajid dropped from 220 to about 140 pounds. I belie\^e he is dead noiw. I was on bread and Mater for a.boujt eighteen months on a stretch, with the exception of a little soup that I would get at dinnea* timeis. . I was sick and laid in for a time, but they chased me ouit to \\ork, although I was as weak as a cat and all played out. They would not send men to the hospital till they were ready to drop. They would charge you with faidng. I am living at home now and doing light work, but have no steady employment. My father helps to support me. " JOHN DAVIS, 1932." Dennis Doyle, 2389 Bathgate avenue, Fordham, N. Y.; No. 2389; sent to Elmira November, 1887; releasedl December, 1888. " I was never paddled myself, but I saw many with the marks on them after they had been to the bath-room. I knew of 'the burning of Cunningham. He showed me while at Elmira the marks and scans on his body. I knew of the punishment inflicted on BakesP and Bramst. Baker escaped in the fall of 1888. " DENNIS DOYLE. "August 24, 1893." 43 Fraink KimWal, (3219); No. 196 Myrttle aveniue, Biicligepottb, .domln.; sentt to Elmina Deciemiber 5, 1888; from Madifeon €00111%, N. Y.; for burglairy in tlhle IMiPd degree, amd esoajpe from jail; paindedMay 12, 1890; (retainiied, to Eihimia, Augusib 11, 1890; from <-)n'.-ida, N. Y., where he was working in a ma-chiae sliop, for morfe education; paroled September 1, 1892: " I wais employed in tlha office m, mesisengeip on tlh.e gu!ajrd-room floor, 'anld it was my <3)uity to take prtfeoneira to tlhe slhop. and to itte hospital. I remembeip tlhle case of aln inmiaite named Gray, who had been ia the lefoirmiatory only ten d'ays', when ihie was f oxuid taking a note to a. man miameid Kert (3001). Gmy tefuiseid to tell Brockwiay who had given him the note, 'amid GiPay was paddled ftor ten dayia negulaa-ly. At the end of that time I helped! to canry Gr'ay to the hospital. His nieck was swoUen to twice the natural size land his eye wa.s black 'and swollen. He was not permittted to go np to 'the hospital omi the eleyator, bnt wiasi oomipelled to walk up, amid was so weak, that, even with help^ it took neiairly three- qnajptecps oifi an hoiuin to get (there, from- Ma cell in ithe sonth Mock, He was in the hospital two weeks, and was then plaoeid in the awkward squad, where he behjavedl all riight , At the end of two weieks, liiolwieTer, he wasi tnajnefeaneid to the State prison as incorrigible. "vyiolther case was thait of Mnrph|y, whio tjrieid to' escape. He was fonnd hidden in the foiumdry, and Winnie poiuired moltemi iron on him to bring him out. I helped to cainry him to the hoHpital, and isaw the wounds on him. A^ioitlheir inmatei, named Maloniey, laid in his oell one dajy, complaining of being sick. Dr. Wey ordered him out, but he returned to his cell, as he waS' not able to do any work. He was oapdeiied out again by (the hostpi'tal etowaird, but salt latrounid the shop all afteimoon. The next moirfnjtig hie was was found dead in his cell. When I was' bnought biaick to Ehnira, after my flnsit parole, I was put in solitary confinement for five days, without beang gnamlted an interview with Brocfcway ,to leam why I was bnougfat back. Wheln I finally did see Brocfcway he told me I had been brought back fom mote edncajtion. That was aU the isiaitiisfacti'on I got from him. At the end of isdx .monibhsi 1 was placed in the highe8.t grade, and after being there for six months I m'ade application to the iboatid for parole. I wasi held oyer fbr ' funtheir test,' and ' fuitheir edtocation.' As a matter of fajct, I wais employed in a ireaponisible position of sharpeniing drills in the hardware department^ and tthey had no 'ome else to take my place. During m)y 'Siecomd term 'at Elmira, there was an epidemic of dyisienteiry, amd one day fifteen of us were ladld up in' the oeMa When Dr. Wey dame around to' my cell I told Mm what wasi the maltter wtthl me, amd he said, ' There are too many lying in wttti 44 thjH alneiaidy; yoia ge* addled, only punched om the guard-room floor. I ^\ as ke]>t in Elmira thi;ee years. T\Tien I had earned my parole at the end of the fli'st year I was reduced, after reaching the finsit grade. I knew of several cases whore men: were very badly treated. A man named Day died there, we all believed, from paddling. He was paddled many times, and used to harve heomor- rhagei^ in the brush-shop. The doctor gave the cause of death as consumption. Thompson, an inmate, was accused of talking; in the shop. He was trying to exjdain to Keeper WalTeu:, when the latter drew hi.s billy and struck Thompson on top of the head. He fell in' a heap before all our eyes. Kelly (2112), another inmate, was paddled fearfully, and I have seen him like a skeleton, with marlvs of the paddle on him. If a man humed his foot half off in the foundTy he got punclied and sent to his cell on bread and water till the foot was well again. I have seen men in the foundry walk up to the cupola crying because they could not do their tasks. An officer named G-ardner was discharged while I was there because he failed to shoot a man whbi tried to- esoajpe; ; " THOS. DECKER." 47 William Facey, Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira NoTCm- ber 13, 1891, for burglaiy; tramsfeiTed to Auburn January 14, 1893. " Wben I wentt to Elmira and was taken before Superintend'enrt. Brockway, be began by asking me if my mother was a faist woman, if my bTOitber was a thief, the same as myself, and if my sisiter was a f ajst won^an. I replied ' No ' to all the questionBi, adding that my siist.er wais otoly 6 yeaiis old. I was placed in paper-box shop, amd affcerwaird in the printing office, first as ajsmstant fore- man and then as foreman. I was raisied to the firsit grad(^ at the end of eigibt months, and helped to^ get out the seventeen year book, as the laist annual repoirt was called. Brockway promised to release me at the next boaird of parole — the boaird that met the last Thursday in January. I was made an officer in the institution, amid, as keeper, had charge over men in the blue suit. My record was good and everything was running smoothly when the siodomy charges were brought up in January. I was airresited early in January by Keeper Sample, and was placed in the solitairy. I found fire other' inmate officers there. Thie men who investigated the charges were Lieutenant-Ooloaiel HaJpin, Ool. Byran, Oscar Hoppe, Va^ A,tten and Sample. "When I wias brought before them Halpim said: 'You aire a nice one to be miaide am officer.' C5ol. Bryan got! oiat a isheeti of ptaipeir and pirejpaired to write. He isiajld, * Tell us aill you know, and we diom't want amy moiikey businiesia lajboiut it.' I asked hSm what I was dhiargied vritih, and he siaid Fitzpiatrick, anoltlhen inmate, hiad told hftm aU about me, ^imld' that I was imipliicatteld in the soidomy ohajTges. They brougbt Mtzpaitrick before me, and he denied it. I also denied it. Osicar Hoppe jumped up and, sadld: 'If you do not teill all I will take you to the bath-room.' I decliuied to tell anytlhinig, as I was iininooenit, and was locked up till lafter dinner. Thten I was taliem to tte blaith-room. Mr. Broekwiay, Ool. Halpini and Hoppe were tihere; alnd las I ent'iiieid Brocfcway pumdhed me in the face, with the exclamaltioin: 'Why don't yoiu teU these men wihiait you kniow?' I told him I knew nothinig. He siaM: 'You lie; go down asD& tell theise men wlhait yoiu know; if you don't I will take the whole soaAp off you, aoid leave you witMn am inch of yoiuir life.' Then he iSiaJld to the keetpers: ' Take hSm back, and if he don^t tell you, bring him in amid I v?ll make an example of him.' They toofc me to the eolitairy, anid then, because I refused to conjfeBlsi to wihait I was noto guilty lof, I was brought back again to thle bath-room. Bnockway amid' Ool. HalpiJi bbtlh pumdhed me whiie I wasi taking down my panife. Iwasoirderedi to put my hiamdis up lagainislt the wall, amid golt flfteem on seventeen Mows acTOBia tlhte simiall of my iback. I fell down tiwa or three 48 times diurtng the pad|dlki|g; and every tdme I fell, Brockwiaj oaugh-t me 'by itlbe throat amd lifted me up again. They drew blood out of my back; my eyes were blaiokeoaed, and my nose was bleeding. I was taJsen back to the isioMtairy, amd on my way Ool. Haipin, who \via^ lieading me, said: 'Facey, why don't you tell what you know? Tell sioanethdng lajnylhow. If you don't they will m;ake an example of you.' That same d)ay, ikii tlhe aftemiofni, I was taJien to tSxe bath-room, questioned again, and again piaiddled. I do not know how majDjy blows I receiyed, bijut they weakened me so! that I hajd to be carried back to the solitary. While thiey hiad me down tiherie, they had Mtapatrlck up in the baith-noom^ trying to get him into saying that I was guilty. I was taken to itlhle baltih-room a fourth time that siame afternoon, aind beaten with a ruibber hose till I could not move. I know I counted fifteen blows, and after that I could not nemember anything. When, I came to myself, Haipin was over me with a glasis of bran|dy puitting it in my mouth. ' You may as well teJl,' he said, and I replied ' I wiU say anything, but don't hit me any m'ore.' I was taken down to the cell, and that evening Haipin ordleped an officeir'ia suppep for me. I was in' the cell till Wedne«iday oir Thursday. I was not alble to stand on my feet, and I couM not lie down on my back. Wednesday or Thursday I was' brought before the superintendlenit Bryan and Hoppe were there. Hoppe said: 'Thiils is Faoey. He has eight chaipges agfainst him and he admits thlem all.' 'Do you admit thjem, Facey ?' asked the superfcntendemt. I replied, ' General superintendent, you have got mie innocent. I had to admit them. If I did not I would not be alive to-day.' Brockway replied, " You bet, you would not. That is ail I want. Take him down.' I was kept in the cell till Saturday, and thieni tramistfemeid. Up bo the time of the sodomy charges, I had a perfect Tiecord. I never had any improper rdlationa with any of the inmates." Thomas Dougherty; address, AubiuTJ. State Prison. Sent to Elmira January 28, 1891, for burglary and grand larceny; trans- ferred to AubuiTl January 14, 1893. "After I had been se^en months to Elmira, I was put in the first grade, and eight months more the board of managers author- ized my parole, to take effect in June. In the middle of May Brockway said that it would be best for me tO' remain in the institiition and take employment there, rather than go outside. He appointed me a keejyer. I had been promised a good position outside the prison, and I wanted to take it, but Brockway would not let me go, so I accepted his offer, and became an offlcer. In Kovember, 1892, I asked the superintendent to consider my leav- ing. He complimented me for my past duties, but suggested thart 49 it "would be better to remain on salary with, him until I could get clothing and money accumulated. At that time I had saved $100. In January I heard of the trouble which caused the court-martial. A^alentine was the first man brought up. There were twelve others iiccused of the same offense, who were paroled men. On January niTitli I was crossing the floor with two other paroled men when Lieu- tenant-Colonel HaJpin, who was principal keeper, called me over to him. He said he was sorry, but he was obliged to lock me up. I questioned him, but he did not tell me what for. On the way ,to the solitary, ("Colonel Bryan met uis and asked me if I wajs guilty. I told him I did not know what I was charged with. He told me, and said Mcholson was my accuser. He said, ' Dougherty, I am surprised; I can't believe it.' " ' Why do you,' I said; 'what evidence have you got ?' " ' T have Nicholson,' was the reply. •' I was locked up without having a hearing. Brockway came down Wednesday morning witb Hoppe. After their talk with. Crumby, they came over to my cell. I demanded to see Nichol- son, and after some objection they bad him brought down. Hoppe s:aid that Mcholson had made the accusation in his preslence. I as'.ked Nicholson : ' Did you tell this man (pointing to Hoppe) any- thing about me ?' Nicholson hung his head and said, 'Yes,' and that ended it. I told Brockway it was false, but he said: 'Dougherty, you're all in it. You are all guilty,' and before I had time to say anything more he walked away, leaving me in my ceU. Then I was transferred here. I had no trial, and tike only evi- ' , dence against me was the uncorroborated statements of tbat low creature, Nicholson. I do not blame him so much, because he was beaten and threatened into making the statement. When I left Elmira I had saved $150 in money and f 100 in clothes. Brock- way has confiscated these. "I have seen many other men who were brutally trelated in Elmira. No. 4743, Jolly, was one. I saw him chained in the soli- tiiry and clubbed and beaten three days in succession. That was not the only time he was punished, either. He was so sore for a long time that he could not sit down. No. 4429, Dwyer, was another. I think he is still in Elmira. He has been, there two and a half yeans, and two years of that time he has been in the red suit. He used, to be paddled every other day. He told me that he could hardly stand up to work, as the life was being fairly knocked out of him. Facey, another paroled man, who was tr'ansf erred here with us, was terribly beaten because he would not confess. He had to be sent to the hospital, where they injected ; ^mulants into him, I was told, and then carried him to a cell. A roan whom I reported for stealing tobacco, whose name was Walsh, 7 50 was tiaken down and an attempt was made to force a confession, from him. He was thrown into the solitary for a day or two and then fearfully beaten. He came back to work with black eyeS' and a bloody nose and all broken down. He is now in Auburn prison. Eobert Colbert and John Sullivan got about the same treatment at Elmira that Facey did." James Oumby; address, Auburn State prison; sent toi Elmk'a May 9, 1888. Ttamsferred tO' Auburn Starts prison Jaimiaiy 14, 1893 ; comvicted of robbery. " I was an officer on paiPole in the reformatory in Jamuaay last, having earned my parole by perfect markei amd good oonduct. I was among the pairole offlcersi here charged by other inmajbeN. falsely, with sodomy. I aseierted my innooence aind demandiedi to see my accuseirs. I was told thait that wasi not necessary aM was locked up. The next morning the superintendeint came airaund. I insisted on seeing the man tihat accused me. He siaid that I could not, and I argued that T had the right toi see him, being a free man at the time that the charges were made agaaJosib me. Then they brought Wylie amd Mcholsoai before' me as my accusers.- I asked Wylie if he knew anything agajinst me and he said that he did not. Hoppe siaid that Wylie Wad memrtioned my name to Van Etteni, the school seoipetary, but- Wylie denied this, and said that it was another man that he had memtioinied. I aslcai Brockway if he were siaitisfied soi fair as Wylie vms con- cerned of my innocence. He only shook hi« head. Then Mdhol- son was brought before me. Birockway did not give me a chance to question him, bnt stepped up to him, siarying saJvagely: 'Youi made tihie charge ajgainst thils man; ia it true or not?' I asked Brockway if he could bring any other p(roloif aside from; this man, and he said: 'No.' 'And you would take hisi word against mine? ' I demanded. He replied, 'Yesi.' I was put into the red suit and transferred here. As the charge for which I wtas sent to Elmira was robbery, I have a maximum of twenitfy yearei to serve. I had fairly earned my freedom in Elmira. T was a majoir in the military, and the guard'-room floor officer, whicih is one of the highest positions ever given to a paroled man. I am entirely innocent of the offense chjarged by Nicholson; a.nd since maktog ■the charge he has told me that he was forced to lie about me to save his own back. He made this statement in the presence of the chaplain and the deputy warden here in Auburn^" James H. Nicholson, Auburn State prision ; sent to Elmira June 21. 1890; transfared to Auburn June 14, 1893. "After being a year in Elmira, I was in the upper flnsit grade, and appeared befolre the board of manajgers to have my pan^ole 51 authoipized. My parole was autlhioirized' to take effect in Sejptem- bei". Before tlliait tirae arrlTed I was rediiced in grade, and the authiorizatioii of papole taken, away, because it was claimed tihiat there was crookedhiesB in keeping the records on the guard-fi'Oiom floor, where I was employed. In Jannairy of thiis year I waw hroxight in connection with the sodomy cases, and foirced to swear to somethinig of which I was innocent, implicating two paroled officeTO, James Crumby and Thomas Doiugheirty. I knew nothing of the chaa^ges until the Sunday before I was tranisftewred from. Elmira. That was Jami'airy eighth or tenth; I did not know that eight or ten others had been kicked and b'eaften to make them confess. I wasi called ,for by Keeper Sample and taken down to the room next thfe soiitaiy. Mr. Hoppe, Col. Halptn and School Seca-etairy Van Ettem wene seated a^bout a table there, and I was given a ch^iiir in front. .Col. Bryan aeiced if I had not expected to be nm. in, and I replied thait I had not. 'Isi your oonscienioe clean?' he asked; ajid when 'I said it was he called me an infernal liar, and drove his fist into my face with all his force. Then Hoppe walked around back of my chair and told me I'd have to tell thfe truth), and while he talked he cuffed as' hard as he could, first on one side of the face and then on the other. He said the mem who occupied ceUs on either side of me had given me away. I per- sisted in my denials, and finally Mr. Hoppe handed me over to Keeper Sample, with th.e injunction: 'Take him back and Mr. Brockway will knock the truth out of him.' " Keeper Sample told me on the way that another man had been badly punished the day, before for not confessing. He said I could not stand the punishment, and that I'd better admit what was charged and beg for mercy. I was afraid I'd be killed or perma- nently crippled if I did not, and I made a statement implicating Orumbv and Dougherty, both majors in the military. " I was called up to face them the next day in the solittajry chamber, and after that was tal^en to Mr. Brockway's P^va^ office. Me, Hoppe and Colonel Bryan, were there with Mq. Brockway. " ' Does he admit it ?' asked Mr. Brockway. "'He does,' said Mr. Hoppe. " That was the last I saw of Mr. Brockway. A day or two later I was transferred with others to Auburn prison. The charges I made against Crumby and Dougherty were wholly without found'a. tion. I have a maximum of ten years to serve." John Witzman; addfessi. Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira, July 1889, for burglaa-y; transferred to Auburn January 14, 1893. 52 " The first time I was paddled was for pusMhg a boy oat of th.e line. I got twenty blows on the small of the baok, and could not lie on my right side for some time afterwaiTds. The second time I was paddled was in October last, after I had been made a lieutenant in the military. I was accused by anothei- iiamate of giving him tobacco. I had a perfect record, and woidd have been paroled by the next parole board. I was called to the guard-room floor, and Halpin, who was principal keeper then, said to me: ■ Did you give this man tobacco ?' I did not give him the tobacco, and I replied, 'No,' in a surprised way. 'You are foolish,' said Halpin; 'teU me the truth and I will keep you from going down.' T persisted in my innocence, and was talcen to the solitary. Hal- pin asked me what I liad done with the tobaocoi I 'had. I told him I did not have any, and asked him what proof he had except the word of one man. Halpin replied: ' I did not bring you down here to cross-question me,' and with that he hit me a punch in the stomach, and I fell on the floor for want of wind. He siearched me and found nothing. Then he threw my clothes into the solitary and after I had dressed, I was chaatned down. ' I will leave you there till nMyming,' 'he siaid, ' anid let you tlhlink about it.' Next day Sample came down, and nam me up to the batih-room in double lime. Buockwtaiy wais there, amd siaid to Balpini 'Who isi this?' 'You are eot-Iieu/teaant Witzmaai,' replied Halpin, 'the man whom Wilson aiccuses of giving him tdb&icco.' Bnockway said 'WeU, Witemiam, did jma give Wilson tMisi tobacoo?' I replied that I dad not. ' Oh, yes; you did,' saM Brockway, ' Wilson says you gave it Ito him.' I toM' him I ooiild not help whiajt Wilson said, and he (Md me to get over against the wall and take down my pantsi, aind he would find out. I refusied, and Halpin and Sample grabbed me and tore off my clothes. I put my hands up against the waE, and Brockway hiit me about fifteen ttmes, anid I fell to the floor. Then he put handcuffs on me and hauled me up to the window. My feet were albout fifteen inches from the floor. He hit me five blows, and let me down agailn, and I fell in a heap. Brockway siadd, 'Nolw, will you tell the trurthl?' I said, 'I have told you the truth 'and more I can nlot iceU, and I wlU eitick to it if I die.' ' Oh, no; you have not told me the truth,' said Brock- may. ' ISoiw, if you do not tell me, I vnil kill you. Oh, darn him,' he exclaimed, turning to the keepens, ' takie him out of here and bring him to-mocrtPOW, andl I will give ilrim some moire.' I ■was taken down to the solitary and left till Thursday. That day I was hung up and paiddled again vsdth my feet off the floor. I was struck twenty times, and I saw more starsi than.'l evepp saw in heaven. He hit me twice on the hteadl that da(f with the paddOie, and drew blood. My back was like a liver, anid blood was 53 , runniDig dowra my back. I have scars to Aow it plainly to-day. I was takesa down to the eoMitairy agaiinl, arid back the next day, and padJdlied till I was imoonscilouiS. Wheni he leit me down, I was gone and sank down' on the floor. He safld, 'Damni^yoiu, get np,' and kickeid me once in the rieok. 1 have a scar wMch you can see plaiMy stM, ajnd a lumip from thie kick. I was also Mt in the ear by one of thfe keepiensi, amd over the eye. Thetne is a mark over my eye "HtiU. Saturday I was brought up to the bath-room again. I could scarcely walk. 'Brockway was in) the hall m I was broug'ht aliomg. Murphy, thi^ keeper, who hiad me in chiaiPge, said to me, ' I do not know what is the martiep with Brockway. You had bertrter igo and have a tlalk with hSm,' aiod he led me over to him. BdOickway had a contemptAble, mean smile on his face. He would juBit as lief laugh in your face oine minute and punch you the next He said' to me: ' little boy (the witness is a good-sized man), come over here till I have a talk with you. I do not want to cut you all up.' 'You have done itha± already,' I replied. ' Oh, no; that's nothing,' he said. * K I kill you it iisi all the same.' I was so weak that I ci4edi like a little child^ feajring ttiat he might paddle me again. I did not know what tjo do. ' You had beititer tell the tirutili,' siaid' Brockway, ' or I wiH take you in iind paddle yon 'ag'ain.' 'I have told the titurth,' I p^salsited. 'Well, I hope you have,' he replied, ' but it looks kind of 'stirange. You have "been here thiree yeanai amd two months, and hlave liever beenj in any orooked busineislsi before, and it is strange that you woidd be aieioused mow.' I said: ' It is a fine time to think of that niow, after th^ cruel beatSngs you have given me.' He walked over to Hailipini, and I heasPdl hiTn i isiay in an undertone: 'There is that young miam, who ^hais been here thjnee yeaatei ;an|d has got a clean record. I dio not know wheithea* to believe he is guilty or not' Halpin eays; ' I do nott know what to think of it.' BrockiWay Slays: ' Oh,' damn it, wash ham up, apd throw hdtm lOut, and let him go where he belongia.' My face was all sweEed up, and I was bruised ftrom hea|d to foot I stayed in my eoMtary for three weeks." Herman Miller, Auburn State prison; sent to Ehnira April 6, 1891, for grand larceny, second degree; from Utioa transferred to Auburn March 3, 1893. "I waB paddled the first titne because I could not get along in school. Brockway had told me that if I lost one more mark, I would be taken ourti to the bath-room. After I had received two blows I could not restrain myself from .taking my hands down from the wail. Brockway knoicked me down and kicked me in the faoe.- It was so swelled I could not see for two weeks. 54 I wenrt; to see Dr. Wey about it, and ke said to keep out otf the bath-room. Brock"way beoanie angiy f/vith. me, becauiae I asiied the boajrd of miaiaagers to traji&fer me to Auburn StaJte prissou. For nineteen months I wslb kept ou bread and water, mostly foa* a failure at school. I got food t^ftice a day. T\no days before I was tranefeiTed to Auburn Dr. Wey took me up to the hos- pital. Tihe "hoBpital steward, a comviot named O'Brien, was also there. T!hey laid me out on a table and chloroformed me. I did not know what tliey intended tO' do. When I came out from the influence of the chlorofoi'm, I found a ring over the head of my penis, fastened fo the .skin and flesh of the penis by four smaller rings. It was verj- painful to me. Dr. Wey told me tihat tlie euperi.ntendent had ordered tihe rings placed upon my penite', and that they ^\■ould have to stay till lie had ordered them off. I iHsmoTed ttie iTngs four days after my awi^-al in Auburn. There ai'e men hea"e, taeludmg the doctar, I believe, who isaw the rings on my penis. I undeocstand that three O'ther men M'ere treated in the same nmn^ ner that I was by Dr. Wey, and on tlie same day that I was. The scars are still on my penis where the rings were inserted." James Boyd; addreisis, Auburn State prison; sent to ELmira July 23, 1889; transferired to Auburn Januarj- 14, 1893, for forgery in the second degree. " I was perfect in my reooird at Elmira for fifteen months, and art the end of that lame was pairoled, and made an officer in the reforaiatoiry on a salary'. After I had been am officer for ses'en montihs, I loaned a citizen officer some cups and saucers belong- ing to the institution. He was going to christen hisi child. 1 was sfcewaird of the domestic budldtag and the crockeiy. was ia my departmenti. For this 1 was reduced to tihe convict grade, because I did not ask tihe superintendent's permission to loian tbe dishes. All the money I had saved, about |100, was for- feited, and aU my clothing. These consisted of twO' suits of citi- zen's clothes and twoi uniforms that I paid for myself; thirty doUaons worth of linen and underclothes. The propea'ty of every paroled man who is reduced is always oonfisicated by Brockway. After fifteen months, I woriied myself baxdi into my parole^ and was put in charge of the laundry at a saJairy of thirty dollars per month. In December, 189i2, Col. Bryan came to the laundry and accused me falisely of sending two letters out for a con\ict. I proved to his satisf aofcion: that I was not guilty. The man for whom the letters were sent out was placed in a dungeon for eight or ten days, and then taken to the bath-room, where he 55 confessed that Citizen Officer Lynch and not myself had sent the letters out foi" hkn. < " In the eaiTly part of January came the investigation of the charges of sodomy. The investigators were Lieutenant-Oolone] Halpin, Mr. Hoppe (both etx-oonvlctsi), School Secretary Van Etten and Colonel Bryan. They chaii'ged me with holding licentious con- versation with John Mullen. Mullen denied it at first, but he was lacked and paddled till he consented to make the charge against me. I asked him afterward why he accused me, and he said that he had to or he would liave been killed. " TTie first I knew of any suspicion against me was on a Sunday morning, when the lieutenant came to me and said it was his painful duty to lock me up. I asked him what for, and he said that my name had been mentioned in connection with the sodomy charges. I was taken to the solitary and locked up in the dungeon with my citizen keepei-'s uniform on. They never made any pre- tense of giving me a hearing, except on the following Wednesday, when Superintendent Brockway and Hoppe came to the dungeon, and the superintendent asked if I wanted to see hiTn, I said, ' Yes, I want to know why I am locked up.' Brockway turned to Hoppe and said to tell him. Hoppe then read some tj-pewritten matter, charging me with sending out the lettersi the previouia month, for which I had been deemed not gTiilty, and also chargiag me with being implicated in the sodomy charges. I told the 'superintendent the charges were liesi, an,d that I could prove them so. He said, ' All right,' and went away. That wasi the nearest approach to a hearing that I had. Friday my citizen's clothes were taken from me, and a convict suit given me instead, and at 4 o'clock Saturday morning I was sihackled hand and foot and sent here to Auburn. Since my other money tmd clothing had been conflsicated I had saved up about ninety -eight doUars and about forty dollars' worth of clotlheK These, too, were ooiifiscated. There are' eight men here in Auburn who were sent here at the same time that I was on the sodomy chairges, who were paroled officers, and who came here practically without a hearing. They got the male prostitutes, who were recognized as such in the insti- tution, to make the charges against us. The superintendent has a list of these in, his office, under the head of N. D's, which means no double, i. e., they are not to be doubled up ia the cell with - other inmates. They try to make Elmira out an ethical institu- tion. It is all done for show, and whenever we have visitors, such as the G-overnor or members of the State Board of Oharitiesj, things are arranged temporarily for their benefit. Ogden, a notorious prostitute, was compelled to make charges against a great many men. He was so persecutied that he attempted to cut his throat 56 with a knife in the solitary, and was taken to the hospital bleeding and near dead. I believe it was against Halpta's grain, to hit the boys, but he had to do it to keep in Broekway's favor. Three times whole I was a pai'oled officer I saw him come up to the officers' quarters with a swollen hand. When I asked Mm Avhat was the matter, on one occasdon, he replied he had to paste one of those boys. " Fred Prescott, of Elmira, was one of the inmates whom Brock- way wrecked by paddltag. "The story told about the institution by tue principal keeper concerned an idiot named Cox. The fellow knew nothing, not even what he was ia Elmira for. For the breach of some rule he was sent to the bath-room aD,d his pants taken down. The super- intendent siaid to him: 'I will give you one good welt; if you do not turn your head I will let you go.' Then Ck)x braced himself against the wall to receive the blow, and the smperintenden/t shuffled his feet behind him, "and Cox turned his head and got the blow across the face. The superintendent repeated this operation several times in successioin, and I saw Cox come out of the bath- room with his face covered with blood and knocked all out of shape. "An inmate, known as Nigger Johnson^ I have seen leave a trail of blood from the bath-room to the iso'litary. On this oooasion he was carried between two keepers with an old coat thPOiwn over his heajd to hide the state it was in. " The boys in the foundry have to do much larger tasks than the able-bodied men who are in Auburn prison. An inmate at Elmira with a stripe on his arm can make any other inmiate serve out his full tlime by giving him reports. Conivict keepers carry keys to the cells, which is accountable for a large amount of sodomy practiced there. ' > "No. 4819, Smith, a delicate and refined boy, about 14 years old, who, I believe, is still in Elmina, was spanked time and again untU he becaime a physical wreck. "A young man of the name of Earl, who I believe is still in Elmira, became a perfect idiot from the poundings and kickinge he got. " I know that three letters were sent to^ the World from the Elmira refomiatory, but I do not think that they ever got there." Frank Starr; address. Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira November, 1889; transferred to Auburn January, 1893; charge, ajseanlt and robbery. " I was in the black siuit three months after readhing Ehoirai, and then was reduced to the red suit. It was for loss of maicks. I made the black suit agaia in five month®. Then my room-martie 57 ^ liad me reduced for hsming tobajcco. I got tweiiifcy-f our blows cxver the small of tke back. I was laid up for two weeks in mv cell. Dr. Wey saw me the morning that I was beaten, and saw the marks, but gave me no treatfcmemb. He told me to stay in my ceL. tai I was weU enough, to go to work again. Winnie gave me one punch for tui-ning my head while I was getting paddled Fmally I wasr promoted to the blue suit and made a sergeant in the mUitary, and was placed on cell duty. One Sunday morning I forgot to lock two cells and mme of the inmates went up to the class im ethics who had no 'right to go there. For that I was reduced to the black suit and put in the foundry, and was obliged to forfeit trade instruotioii. I wais taken o,iut of the shop for tranisfer to Auburn wihile I wore a black suit, and whUe my matrks were good. I was not charged with any offenise. I was transferred, m far as I know, without causey audi without pre-vdous notifi'cation. I kliow of several cases of cruelty. " No. 4118, McCarthy, died about Januarj' 1, 1893. About six week^ before he had been reduced in grade on a charge of having improper relations yvith- a man named Bonner. He was paddled and laid up in the hospital or in his ceil, and I do not think was ever seen alive afterwairid. Before the paddling he was a fairly healthy young man. I knew because he used to stand next to me in the military. "Diamond, another inmaiie, complained to Dr. Wey nearly every day about pains in his cihest. He had been punched and paddled a good many times. An inmate officer in the packing room, named No. 2702, Nollie, ihad it in for him, and kept report- ing him.. Tlhat was why he was paddled so often. When he oomplained to tbe doctor, he would put him off and tell him noth- ing was the matter with him. Finally he was taken lip to the hospital and exanlined one day, and the next day he died. " Brunswick was another inmate who was badly padidled. He had been a paroled captain. The week before he went away, he was taken to the bath-room and paddled so that be could not walk out, and he was carried down to the solitairy. His face, when he came out, was aU out up and he had black eyes. He served out his full term of five years, spending the last five weeks in hospital, or else laid up in his cell. He wenti out about a year before I was transferred. "Beoauise I am now transferred to Auburn I now have a ten years' sentence to serve ou.t. I pleaded guilty to the ohaffige against me in New York, with the understanding that I was to be sent to the reformatory, and I am sure that the judge who sentenced me had no idea that I would be obliged to serve out my fuU term." 58 Judsou J. Ide, Aaburn State Prison; sent to Elmina^ February 22, 1889, for biirglaJiy, from Oorintlh!, Saaiatoga coTinty; traost- ferred to Aubum, May 25, 1892: " I was flogged three timea The flist tdme was Ajpriil 27, 1889. It was while I was in the black suit foa* i*epoirts against me. I was atruck nine times, and hit arounld the ihead because I took my hands down from the window. The piaddie caught me in the eye, and I could not see ftr a week. I want to Dr. WeJy. He asked me if I conld see, and I told him ' No.' That is aJl he diid- About January, 1890, was the second time I was paddled. It was for breaking a machine iui the shop. I could not make it work, and they woiuld not fix it. I was' chalked in and taken to the bath- room the nexlt day abo-ut noon. I wasi padldled thirteen timea Aboiujt Ajpiil 1, 1891, I got two or three notes of warning. One of them read as near as I oanj recollect: ' Ide, are you either a lunatic or a jackass? If the foTmier, you slhloulid be sent to an asylum; if the latter, you should be knocked on the ihead.; and if you don't impirotTC your (reooird, whatever yon may be, I will knock j'ou on the other end.' Shointiljy after tihese repoirtts, I was taken to the bath-oxxwm, an|d after receiving three blowisi, I could not stand the paini, and took my hands down from the window. I was ordered to put them uip again and did. ABter thinee otr fbur blows they came down again. Then Brockway ordetred Mr. Winnie and Mir. Sample to get a onope and cuffs, and they Iheld me up fully three feet oflf 'the floor. I was up there flve minutes. It was an awful strain. Then I asked if I coaild keep my handisi on the window while I was being paddled, and I promSsed' and they let me down. Then I was forced to put my hands up to the window and I'eeeiyed two more blows with the paddle. After beinjg paddled you haye to crtm ooit just as you are wMh yoiur olotheisi down. I could hartlly use my hands tar fow days after being strung up. My wrists were aU swollen. There is a little spot on my vision which was caused by a blow in the eye froon ,tlhe padjdle. It looks like a fly when T move airound.' Harry Walker, Auburn State Prison, sent to Elmira June 16, 1S89, from New York, for assault; trausferred to Auburn, May, 1892. " 1 was paddled after I had been in Elmira three months, for not doing militarr properly. I got fifteen cracks with a leatber strap across the shoulders, kidneys and bottom. I still have the Miulis. 1 fainted away while I had been paddled, and they kicked nie in the mouth after I had fallen down. You can see a small mai'k on my lip stUl. After I fainted, they put me in a bath- tub of cold water. They had to carry me from tlie bath-room to 59 my cell. I wa« too weak to. walk. I was left in my read and watei- fo uiv bi-eaMast and supper, and was not allowed to ^^■rite or receiv any letters. 1 1\-as sent to Elmira on a charge of burglary m th third degree, and received a luinimuiu sentenice of five years b going to the reformatory. It was Judge vSeaver that sik-nt me aw a; T was sent to Clinton prison in July, 1892, and clasised as one c the liroekway young men beyond reforming. I had three yeai and seven months to serve when transfea'red to ('linton prison, an deducting my allowance for short time, leaves me one year an nini- months'yet to serve. 1 am at pi-esent working in the waif facMvy. Xow, father, do all you can to get me out, and you wi never ha^■(■ occasion to inie the day you did so. I am a change boy from what I Avas when I left home, so now, fatheii*, I wi (Icjiend on you to get me out. I would be thankful if you woiil send me a little money to help get a few thiings to help bull m\self up. There is a village outside the prison where I coul purchase little things in the eating line. So now, father, I mm close. I really can't say much. I am so overjoyed at what yo have said in your letter. So, trusting to hear soon, I'll clos- I'ondest love, I am a loving son. , " ALBERT , No. 1811." " The father went away yesterday to see his boy and learn jui what condition he is in, physically and mentally. "The letter \Aiis A\Titten by a prison attache, which leads th father to believe that the boy is u}ia.ble to write.'' ST.vTEMENT OF JOSEPH GRIFFEST (PAROLED), NO. 22 SE]SnEpA STREET, BUFFALO, N. Y. fFrom Buffalo Evening News, August 10, 1893 ] "Editor ETeming News. — WMle tihie couintry is u,p in anm against Brockway and his brutail treatment of prisonierisi under hi oonSax)!, I think it is tunie for me to sieind yvm my little mi!b6. C aU thelettera you have pulbiished, of late, not one can I sa exaggenarted the truth. ■' Now, to show you where his system, is rotten, he will take tw men who go down togeitheir, one whlo has alwaysi led a good lif for assault and barttdry, and antother an haibitaal criminal. H will put them in the same grajde and give them tha sam.e trea ment. If they are in too adAamced a class in school or get son petty officer down on them, into tJie red siuit tih^ go, and fro; the time they go ia until they get out of that suit, tihey are candidate for a paddling for a trifling offense. I was one of tl 83 few who meveir got a paJddling myisieif, tutl I worked' in) the hall, and liave heand ithfeir isidi'ieialmisi of agony laiad theliir' (pleiaidlings for mercy, along with Broickway'S icold, cynical lanigh. "Another thing I would Mke to write about is BTOictewiay's pOAver orer his slajves. If there was lam investigationi he wotilid call up to his private oflaoe the pirfeoaier® that he wouM ha^e up before the opmmititee, and say to them, 'Ate yooi going to tesitify against me?' ajid the piri;sianjer, not daring to isiay 'his sioul was his owdj, would, of course, say no. And if any mYeatigiation ever comes up and a m'^ testifiea againBifc Tinm, anld he doesi not lose his office, I woidd not give a dollar for that man's laJbop for tihie coursie of ' his whole natural Itfei " I have known him to paddle mien for having itobaccoi in their possession, aii|d then lock thletm up in isolitary contflmement for one month, two oir thJr'ele montthis. This sioMtairy ia a oeU in the same block with itihie rfesttjbuiti it has two doore. One isi 'the iwm bar door; the otheir is a heavy scirieen door, woven soi close ' together that you lOould hardly isitick a pin thtaugh the hioifes, and nothiii|g but lan old bedltiick to sleep upon. There i^ no reading to paw aiway the tima Yet, tihree months of thiat, hialf starved all the time, is emough to miake am idiot of a man, land leave him a physical wreck, unfit to laisislokaartie witih the oiitside world " Such is life in Elmiira reformaitory. "Youins resipectifuEy. «J. G." " The object of the reformatory is the correotiom of ohaCPa,cit)er of boys guilty of minor offenses, not habitual oriminalsL Petty •theftis, breaking into' wine oellaris, assa.tilt and battery and such offenses are followed by commitment to the reformattory, where the 'cadet sysitem ' and ' indeterminate sentences ' are supposed to have a, correcitave influence. Twoi young men whoi went down a little oiver ai year ago are Joseph Griffin and John Powers. They Bitole lead' pipe from an empt|y house. Grriffln ' got through ' in one year. Powers is in the reformaitory yet. A News reporter asked Griffin yesterday how he succeeded so well. " ' I ^ood in,' he siadd. " ' Good behavior? ' '"Good behavior was pai-t of it. I was careful. But good behavior alone won't get you through; you've got to make fWends of the officers.' " ' You mean Brockway ? ' "'No; Brockway never notices a man more thlam a machine. He nlever spoke to me but three times — when I went in, when I went into the blue siiit and when I came out. I got my parole 64 '• Stun Deiitch, No. 3409, now released, was employed in tlie lio]]owT\are shop at the time, and he told me that Diamond fell do-svii twice at his machine the morning before he died. ■'I lemembra- that another man was found dead in his bed one morning by Keeper Berthold. It was before Diamond died, I think some time in the year 1890." Thomas Walsh; address, Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira AprU 12, 1889, for assault in the second degree; transferred to Auburn January 14, 1893. '• On the let of July, 1889, I was flogged, with about six others, \\ ho were excavating for the gymnasium building, because I pro- tested againsit the small quantity of food given us. I got about ei.aht blows across the kidneys. One man, who came from Eoiches- tcr, ^\as paddled so badly that they had to put him in the bath- tub to reAive iilm. Shortly after this I got noticre that if I did not make a pei-fect record I would be flogged every day, if necessary. After that I was flogged at least t\\ ice a month. In Jaaiuary, 1892, three of us had alcohol, and T\e were put in the solitary for it. ^^'(' -wtn' severally flogged for that, and we were put in the rest cu^-e for nine daj-s on one slice of bread and water a day. I have sei'u the walls and floor of the bath-ioom spattered with human blood." Thoanas S. Cook; address, Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira January, 1891, for burglairy in the third dtegree; tranisif erred Januairy, 1893. , '' I was flogged four times and once hit oai the head with the paddle, becan.se I would not stand up against the wail. I have a scar cm, my right temple %Ahere Brockway's ring struck me' when he punched me mth his flst. I was transferred to Auburn on the sodom^v charges, with the gang of fifty who came here in January last. There was noi evidence against me except that of a male prostitute named Brinkman. Although he had claimed that I had practiced sodomy upon him, he was retained in Elmira while I wais sienit here." Frank Wallace, address. Auburn State prison; sent tO' Elmh'a October 30, 1892; tramsf erred to Auburn March 3, 1893. "I was sent to Elmira by Judge Seaver, of Buffalo, and was transferred to Auburn by Superintendent Brockway, because I woidd not give the name and address of my parents. Judge Seaver hais been to see me since I have been in Auburn, becaiuse I wrote a letter to hini comiplaining of the cruelty practiced uijton me in Elmira by Brockway. BTOckway admitted the cruelty to 66 Judge Seaver, and the laiter lias putolidj anaoimiced that he will send mi more prisohers to Elmira) under the present regime. Brcckway had me up in a dungeon, chained to the floor, -for seven daj-s. He called' me up then, and as I still refused -t)oi tell him my parents I wa^ put iu- solitary comflnemieiit on short rations fot' 0vei four months, oir until Majrtih third, when I was tuansferred to Auburn. I was bCTxtaOy treated while I was in Elmira, and among other thing®, BroicJiway kicked me in the face. I hare had no nepnooif sinioe I haye been in Auburn State prison." Waiiam Walters; address. Auburn State prison; sent to Elmira November, 1890; tranisf erred to Auburn January 14, 1893; for grand larceny. ' "My recoird a.t, Elmira isi one of the best ever miade in the insti- tution. My parole was authorized after I had been there eleven and a half months. Two weefe after I had been paroled Cfelonlel Bryan came to smell tobacco on my breath, and I admitted, that I had been chewing. Two nightsi later I was- infopmed that my parole wias fotrfdtted. MJ7 parole was renewed tht'e© months after. Brockway offered nie a position in the inistitutioni I told him I did not oare to talce it. He insisted,' and said that if I was dissatisfied I could leave at the end of six months. I served six. months as a keeper on' salao^, and then wrote a note and asked him to let me go. He told me to wait; tiU after the ^ next board met. After that he said I had better wait till I had some money saved up. He kept putting off my release till January, when the sodomy charges were institTifed. It bfecame noised around thait there was a conspiracy toi get rid of the paroled ofBcera. I do not Imow how true that was. It is a fact, 'howl- evei', thaii boys, whose reputation was the worst, were kicked and paddled and knocked senseless to force them to implicate othens in the sodomy charges. Brockway gave orders that no jiaroled men should go outside of the cage, although previous to that we had had what is known as the lawn privilege. Sunday fJanuarj' eighth) I went up in the ofQcers' quarters, when Colonel Halpin came and arrested me. I wais Jocked up and saw no one except Sample, who brought me food, tUl Tuesday morning, when Colonel Bryan passed. I aske^ him vvhat I was accused of, and he replied, ' The same as the rest, sodomy.' I askeid who my itoc users were, and he isaid Sergeant Miller and Sergeant Mullens and a notorious inmate named Jacobs. I told him I would like i() have them face me. ' Oh, that's not necessary, Walters,' he j-eplied. 'They admit it; that's enough.' I was never faced with any of them. Broidkway came around two days later, and as he jiassed my cell he asked if I wanted to stee him. I replied, 'No, sir.' I supposed then that I was to have a trial by court-martial, 9 66 liut T i\as transfenred the folloTV'ing ?5utTirday without a hearing. I had saved fl40 in money, and had, besides, a new valise, two umbrellas, eight white shirts, half a dozen suits of heaA'y under- wear, two or tliree suits of light underwear, threie pairs of shoes, a suit of citizen's clothes, three siiits of uniform and other prop- erty-. After I got to Auburn I sent to Brockway, asking him to forward isome of my heavy underwear. Attached to 'this state- ment ifc the reply he sent me, telling me that all my money and propeny had been conliseated. " \^Tiile at Elmira, I saw Colonel Bryan knock a boy down once. I had seen men come from the bath-room many times all marked up, ^vith blood dripping from their wounds. " A little f ellovi' named Gretion, a Russian Hebrew, who under- stood almost no English, got reported right along and got paddled. T used to read his repoits for him right along, because he could not read English. Once T t»aw him (-i-ying, and asked him what was the matter, and he showed nie his back, which was coyered with Avelts six inches wide. The flesh was livid. This was in October. The boy was paddled after that, and I saw a lump over his eye." The following is a copy of the letter: " Elmika, N. Y., January 2«, 1893. " William "Walters (23117), Elmira Transfer, State Prison, Auburn, N'. Y. : " Yours of the t^x enty-second. I regret I am unable to send you any.imderclothing. You will ha\'e to rely upon the management of the State prison for aU such necessaries. All of your clothing and money, under the rules of the reformatory, were confiscated, and I can not, therefore, find them again and send them to you. "Yours, etc., " Z. R. BROCKWAY, '■'• General\8uperintendent (-&")." John Comisky; address, Auburn State prison; sent to Ebnii'a February 1, 1889, for burglary in the, third degree; transfejred tO' Auburn ]\Iay 25, 1892. *' I was paddled the first time for not putting up my task in the hollow-ware shop. I was weak and could not. I had been in the hospital. I was sent to the bath-room, and Brockway gave me six blows with the paddle over the kidneys and one over tiie head for turning around to look at Mm. It left a big lump. Another time I Avent to Dr. Wey and asked him if he would not excuse me, because I was sick and could not put up my taisk. He said 67 ' You ain't sick.' I said, ' I am, and can not put up iny task.' He sflid he coTild not excuse "me unless I had consumption. He ordevt'd me to the shop. I did my best, but could not perform the task, and was punished for it. The siecond time I wm put in the rest cure, entering August twelfth, and being kept thiere till October first. I only received one ration a day there. I was near dying, and they put me in the physical culture class. I got built up a little, and they put ine back to work in the foundry. I had been there a short time when I got beaten again for B,poiling some work by accident. There were seA'ei'al men in Elmira who had scars on them, fwhere they had befen paddled or stbruck by ' Brockway or the keepers'." J. Lymch; a-ddiness, Aubtum State prisioni; sent to Elmirai April 12, 1893; tspajnisiferired to Aulbum, August 8, 1893; fom burglary in the third degr'e©: ' "WheoQi I went to Elmilra, I told my teacher in school that I had no edtiioEUtioni. His name was Rushmoire. He had me at the blacktoard one diay to dio a pTOblem in raultiiipllcaitiioni I could not. d!o it, and he asked me how much five beers wonM cost at fire cen;ts each. I ttoM him twenty-five centsL Tliem Ke asked me how much eight apples would cost at fouin cents a,piece. I cornld not tell him, and thiouighit he wanted to make a fool of nae, and told him so. Monitotr Eenton gave me nine reportisi for thisi, and I was taken from the shop next day to the bath-room. Keeper Sample and Superinitemdent Birockway were there. As soon las Brock-way I'ead the change agiainsit me, Sample hauled off and punched me in the eye. I got seven blows with the paldldle acrloslsi the kidneys, and five acrosis the head. One of them, struck me in the eye, and my right eye htag awag^ down my cheek. My face was bleeding, and I was such a sight that they covered my head up with my coat when they led me out I wais put into a cell, and from there sent to the solitairy foir five aoad a half dayisL I coiuid not see out of the eye. Dr. Wey came anid looked at my eye oiloe, and when I told him I could mot see out of it, he siaMl, 'Thafs all right.' The sight of the ^e is almost destroyed. I can only stee my hand just a little bit» when I hold it up befoire my face. When I hold my head down it makes me dizzy." Statements Filed by the Buffalo Evening News, September I, 1893. STATEMEl^T OF THOMAS INGEBSOLL, TONAWANDA. ' "I went to the reformatory, March 22, 1886. I livai in Pulton N. Y. at the time, and was sent from Syracuse, by Judge 68 Noirtlinip. I was sent for fire years. On, the twenty-third of MaiPoh, I was brought up ibefore Brcfckway. He began, to. a^k me about my relaMons, if my 'bnorthiers or father hadi been thie\'cs, and if my mother or sisteii's wei'e prostitutes!. I thought this \''as Yerv meani, but I ansAxered Ills questions. I told Mm I ^^'as the only one of the fatmoly who had ever got into ttouble. At that time there were not four tirades, and I Avas put intoi the ^e'l-oud grade for fbui" months. After that I Avas put down in the tbird grade with a red suit on. I was put down for getting too many reports a.gatast me. I couldn't get along in school, and then there are marks for 'ansiwerinig back to an officer, Ifor' epiittinig on the floor, and for a thousand little things, so I Avasi put down. I remained there for four months, when I got back into the second grade. I stayed there about eighteen months. Then, put bayck into the third grade again, and was put ontBiide into the yard to work. One day, while laying wood block pavements, an officer disicoA'ered me with a chew of toba.cco in my mouth. He searched me and found labout two chews more inl my clothes. Then he took me re for six days. Then I began to get better. He sent me to 70 iny room and told Brockway that I was all right, and lie could ]jaddle me again if I did not tell. I know from a certain Bource that he told Brockway this. That forenoon. Brockway came again to see me, and asked if I was ready to tell where I got the tobacco. I told him no. If he was going to torture me any more for God's sake to take an ax and knock me in the head He laughed at me and pulled his whiiskei^ in that sneering way he has, and put that ugly scowl on his face and said, ' Oh, ha, oh, I don't know.' He took me into the bath-room again. Mr. Mack was there at that time, so was ili-. Winnie. Mack stepped up and said to me, 'Now, you had better tell.' I stall refused. Then he chained me up and paddled me again. He gave me about twenty-two straps, and then, put me in solitary confinement for forty-six or foi"ty-eight days on one slice of bread and half a cup of water a day. I used to get once in a while a ration of hash in the morning, but it stunk so I couldn't eat it. After the soiltary coraflnememt I Ava-s in such shape that they took me to the hospital, where I remained for five weeks. I was very bad' off and Ihiey thought I would die. I was suffering from the pounQing I had beemi given by Brockway. After I got out of the hospital they put me in the yard as a runmer; a kind of errand boy. Brockway saw me in the yard one day and said: 'You're the only man itlhat evei* beat me.' " I got the tobacco of one of the guards who had been a prisoner himself, and I T^ouid have died before I would 'have squealed on him. "I served my fuH five years in the reformatory and was pad'- dled two or three times after that for common offensies, such as not doing my work properly, and once for what they cfaiUmg sHeal- ing work for the other boys, to keep them from getting paddled. "My father and mother are still living in Fultoni, Oswego county. I am at present employed as a boat captain on tlhe EWe canal. I ami 29 yeaiis old and mamed. "THOMAS ESTGERSOLL, " Eoom 5, PoBt-oiflflce block, Tbraawanda. " Care Mr. Slatterly. " Buffalo, August 30, 1893." 71 STATEME^S^T OP AUGUST ULBIGH. ,, ,, ^ " Buffalo, N. Y., August- 28, 1893. " Mr. Editor : ' ^ j " D^ Sir.— Being a foitner inmate of the Elmira reformatoiry,'! am interested: in tJxe noble work of the News in, trying tq. down tlie demon (Brockwaiy), and doing justice toi the inmates now confined in that insttitutaon. I would also- like to tell of my experiemce while down there. I was sent there when but 16 years old 'biy Judge Hammjondfoiri receiving sltolen proipiaPty. When I first enteredi the place, and not kno-wing much of' the rules, I made a email knife with a blade about an inch long to sharpen my pencils with. When Keeper Beach kicked me for it. When there about twenty months an inmate, who had charge of the floor in the shop, tried toi make me do auother fellow's work, which I would not dk>, so he told the officer a lie about me, so I struck him. Mr. Broekway never investigated the matter, as he should have dome, but had me taken toi the bajtih-rooin. He then 'asked me why I done it. I told him that he tiried itb; make me do work that did norfc belong to me, and that! my temper got the best of me, anid am willing to take a piunishmenit for it. Tlheil he told me t^ undress, which I did not do fast enough for hiin, so he hit me in the face, told me to hurry on. When undressed he told me to stand against the wall, then he struck me another for not loO'king the other way, then he paddled me over the bare spine about ten times, then struck me over the face with the paddle, knocking me unconsoiousi, than he kicked me all over my body till I came to my senses again, them put! me in solitary con- flnemen/t. The next morning Officer McLaughlin came toi the cell to bathe my face aiod body, which was ail bruised and swelled. My eyes were blackened and my face was swelled so I couldn't see for three days. I was kept in solitary confinement ten days on bread and water, then taken out to work when I was so weak I could hardly stand on my feet. I told the doctor, who gave me three piUs, which done mie no good. I am weak tu' the spine to^day yet from the results of that paddling. Hoping you wUl kefep on with your good' work and bring Broekway to a hasty judgment, " Eespectfully yours. "AUG. ULRIOH, " 371 Glenwood avenue, B^iffalo, N. Y. " P. S. Please withhold my name from publication. My number was 2340; sent from Buffalo in 1886. 72 " Please answer in everybody's ooJumin if the board of charities yvW. beaa* expenses of witnesses in tliait investigatioai to be held by them" as I could noit afford it, and oblige "AUGUST ULEICH." STATEMENT OF MES. EDWARD SULLIVAN. " Buffalo, August 29, 1893. " My son, Joti^ SuUItcuq, wais sent to tike Elmira ref otranaAory in 1889. His number was 3691. He was there, 'ajbout two' years, and was then tmaisferired to ClLntoin pirisioii by SuperSLnteindent Brockway. While he was at Elmira I visited him once. That wasi August 14, 1891. Wheni he went there he was a stpoirjg', healthy bO|y. The day I sam^ hiTn he was veay weak, and I haindly kne^v him. I brougM: liim som.e fruit and cake, but Supeirinitend'ent BTockway refused to allow me to give it to him. I aisked my boy then how he fared at the refonniattory. He siaild he wasi not given enough to eat. He said the soup was like dishwaiterj amid he did not get enough to keep him in good health. He said the meats were ^rotten. When he was isick he was made tibi go to work, the doctors (telling him to go and drink vinegar. He wasi tnansf eirred to Clinton pri.son, I think, January 10, 1891. He was ihi Clinton jmson until Febtniary of this lyear, when Goiv. Flowelri paJrdoned him. I brought him home dying. He lived nine weeks after ireaching Buffalo. He frequently told pie on his deaith-ibed he had seen Supeirlii/tendent Brockway kick boys in the face, sitaipip on them, and treat them brutaiQy. He told me he heard boys cry from the suflering they had undergone, and the boys told him lots of times they had been paddled until they were insenisilble. I feel sure Bnoiokwaij' is responsible for his death, foir I aim confl)den.t he beat my boy omeEy. My ison did not wish to tell me of his treatmenit, because he knew it would worry me. His number was 3691. "Mrs. EDWARD SULLIVAN, "70 Artkur street, Buffalo, JSf. T. "Dictated to Wm. H. Gonnar, Buffalo Evening Newsi." LETTER AND STATEMENT OF FE7y!irK L. WALLACE. " AuBCKN Prison, July 23. " Judge Seaver : "I>ear Sir.— I read the article in the Buffalo News of July second, which I obtained through the kindness of a prisoner in 73 regard to my treatment at Elmira, and saw immediately that I had you to thank for it and for any help that I may obtain through it. This is the first opportunity tliat I have had and I thank yooi very much for the interest you have taken in my case. I should ialso like to thank the reporter who wrote it up so nicely, but I neglected to ask hm name. He reported what I said correotly in the main, but uiade two or three mistakes. I did not say tjiat I was under an assumed name, and it was Ms suggestion rather than mine that " llr. Brockway study the character of Jean Valjean." T did not say tkat I was chained to the floor by both wrists. It Vr-as bad enough by one, however. Also, I had been there two weeks instead of one day when Mr. Brockway kicked me. I think the rest was aU correct. Mr. Brockway denies kicking me. He seems to be able to forget at pleasure. It occurred on the main (g-uard-room) floor, right in front of the office. There were twelve ov fifteen clerks (prisoners) working in the office, the officer Jln charge of them and the guard at the front entrance (cage), who must have seen him; also several haUmen who probably did. It was without the slightest provocation. He also says, that the dun- geon is not dark. 1 saw two small windows, but they are covered with shutters, which look to be made of thick boards, like small doore, and when closed it is absolutely black. One can, not tell where the windows are, nor see anything at all. They are kept closed all the time except a minute when the guard brings down the bread. He says that it is lighted by electricity and heated by steam. There is an incandescent light there, which the night guard turns on when he comes down at night for a minute and turns off when he goes away. It is heated by steam, and terribly hot; too. It was like lying in the hot-room of a Turkish bath, wiith all my clothes on, for seven days. He says that he doe® not know * whether I wais chained to the floor or not, and tries to give the impression that it was the side of the wall instead. He ordered it himself. I think Mr. Sample took me down the finst time. Mi'. trample, Mr. Murphy, Mr. Spencer and a guard called ' Big John ' saw me there. ■ " Mr. Brockway was very careful to have the windows open when he took the reporter there. He has a habit of calling a great many things by their wrong name. It does not look very much as though he had me chained to the floor for security when he said: ' Take him down in the dungeon; chain him down; keep him on bread and water till he does tell.' " Thank you for saying you will send no more boys to Elmira. There is a great deal of good left in a great many people who have committed crimes, and I can not see how there can be much honor left to anyone gx)ing through such a place suocesisifully. I 10 74 don't believe any more (if as many) people reform after leaving there as here, or any other prison, aJtliougli they are nearly aH lipst offenders who are sent there, Mr. Brockway's .statistics to tSie contrary. " I sent a statement to the ' Buffalo New®,' as the reporter a®ked me to, the day after he was here, but do not know as he ever received it. Mr. lirockway is said to be over 70 years old, instead of 50. '• ] wrote to Gk>vernor Flower the day after you were here (May twenty-fimt) and received an answer from Mr. T. L. WUljiamfii, saying that the Governor would not consider my case at that time, but for me to malie an application later. I shall write again the fourth Sunday in September, and hope that he will consider my case favoraibly then, and hope to be free Ocitoiber twefntjyHsecond. Please kelp me, as you so kindly have done already. " Very resptectfully. " rHAJWC L. WALLACE, 23198." [Buffalo Sunday Morning News, July 2, 1893.] " When Wallace was sent for to comie into ttie prison receptionnroom he did not know who wished to siee him and looked somewhat perplexed until he learned wlhat was wanited. He had a slip of paper in his hand which he nervously rolled and folded until it was nearly woim out. It was hJs pass througih tihe guards to '' the front " and return. He is an initeiligemt yoiung man and speaks with more than ordinary fluency and correctiniesis. There is gi'eat earnestness in his manner, with none of that cant and cringing about him so frequently found in experieniced convicts.^ First of all he was told that the truth, with no exaggeration, was wanted above all things. '■ ' I wDl teU you the trutii and nothing more,' he said, in a way that showed he meant it " ' First of ail let me say that Mr. Brookway, the keeper of the Elmirai reformatory, is the most cruel, hypocritical man that I ever knew of or heard of. Ttuly, I did not believe that snoh a fiendish man could be found among enligh.tened people.' " •' Bu* I want to know in detail what your treatnuemt was? ' " On my arrival at the reformatory I wajs taken before Super- intendent Brockway and asiked a great many questions. , I answered everything to the best of my ability until he caime toi the question about my home and my parentk I refused to give any information on these points. ' Please excuse me, sir,' I said; 'from, answering these questiona I will tell you anything else 75 ia my poiwer, but I oam't tell you tiiose tilings.' He asked mie wliy and I toidi Mm. I explained to himi thaitl my mother was in poor health, that I thought a great deal of her, and that I believed it would lull her if slie knew what end I ihad come toi He kept piretsstinig me, but I would nolt tell. HileiDl liie became sairicastie aud asked me if I didn't know that he could loosen my tongue in just five minutes if he wanted to. I only replied that I was willing to obey all rules if he wotuid only not piiesis me on ttoiese questLonsL Then h.e became angry and ordered a guard to tlake me to the duB'geon. What I suffered there that first night I can never fort- get. It is a small cell without a ray of light and eoi far beloiw ground that all noise is eibut off. The guiard took me there and leading me to a comer made me get down on my knees', and then he snapped shackles on both my wrists. ,1 could hardy realize what had taken place until the door had been looked and I attempted to straighten upi. Then I found that I bad been chained to the flooop in a dark, suffocating cell, and tihat the chains! were so diort that I could not get up on my feet I was forced either ■ to lie on my stomach or partly on one side. I could not turn over on my back on account of the shortaesis of the Chains;. It was at a time of year when tbe cold weather was jviBb beginning to come on, and the steam-pipes that rani tlhirough the cells were kept so hot that] I nearly suffocated. I tried to work my coait and clothing off during the nighty but was shackled so tight that I could only remove my clothes from the front part of my body. Toward morning the air became so stifling thati I thoughit I should suffocate before anyone would come to me. " On the day before, when I biad refused to answer questionsi, Mr. Brockway had said to me : ' I have a mind to flog you within an inch of your life, you d d little thief,' and as I lay th^eire roasting through the long nightl I wished he had done that instead of putting me in the dungeon. " On the second day, toward night, I was taken out and taken again' before Mr. Broekway. He told me to sit down, and asked me how I felt. ' *' He took a seat directly oj^posite and very close to me. There were several others in Ihe room who can testify to what took place at that time. He again asked me the questions .about my home and my parents, and I again refused. Then he flew in a terrible rage, and kicked me on the right side of the face as I sat with my head inclined like this. Without anything further he ordered me back to the dungeon, where I was chained for six days and nights with little tq eat and no light or air and no sleep. I have pretty o'ood nerves, but several time® I prayed that I might die to end mv sufferings. The whole matter was 'such a shock to me that T6 I became almost insane, and began to think that BroOkway him- self T-as insane and might intend to keep me there forever. A day tind a night seemed like a year, for I co-uld not teU when it ^^ as day and when it was night, except by the arrival of the guard to bring -my bread and water. My wrists, arms and back ached so that it seemed to me that I coxdd not endure it. " On the seventh day he had me brought before him again an,d asked me if I was ready to answer his question®. I replied that I would do anything el^, but that I would not do. I would die first. 'All right,' he replied, 'I'll pnt yora where yoTi' won't last long, and then what do you want done with your bones ?' This ke said with that hateful smile that he has. I aniswered that I would as soon my body should go to the dissecting table as anywhere else, if they Avanted it. '' So then I was put into solitary confinement, where I wasi kept for four months. This place did not bring the pain that tte dun- geon and chains did, but it was terrible to bear. "It was a small screen cell, with everything removed from it and nothing to read and no one to speak to. I was kept on half rations and not allowed to see anyone. How I prayed for some- thing to read. I could have devoured anything. I am not par- ticularly religious, but I begged for a Bible; I sent to Brockway, and he replied in quite a long note. I committed that to memoiy and never can forget it." Then Wallace repeated the words of the note, whith was.' toi the effect that it remained wholly with himself whether he enjoyed equal freedom and privileges with the other prfeoners. When he would submit to Brockway's request he could have what he desired to read; but until then he would remain where he was and as he was. ' "So there I remained, week after week, until at last I was sent here in March, when it was found that I would die before I would answer their questions. This 'place is a palace compared to the reformatory. It is just what I imagined a great prison to be. There is hard work and the strictest discipline, but no cruelties, so far as I have seen. Since I have been here I have found that other prisoners have had very much the same experi- ence at Elmira that I had. There are himdreds of men in here who say that their health was broken down there on account of the teiTible floggings and hardships they received. Out of one draft of fifty sent here from there, I am told that thirty-five died within a year. A great deal of this is due to weakened back and kidneys, caused by the terrible floggings that are given at the reformatory. "The men are stripped and held by two strong guao-ds, whiie I{rockway flogs them across the small of the back with a piece of rubber hose filled with, water. That is what is principally used." Y7 " Were you eyer flogged there ?" "No; but I have daily heard the cries of men who were being floigged, and haive & «!.+ P"^«^.^lBo,ttotbe Ne^^'Yol•k State reform^lbl-y at Ehnira. aj at .tihat time, although only 18 years old, I had ah4ady heard ft ^'IT f-! '""^ brutaJitie. practiced fteo-e, and felt certain that that institution wooiH not reform me with such waotioe..; and aWiough young and inexperienced mN- judgment proved to be nght as the sequel proves, not only in my case but in man^- many otheris. "I was thewe fourfeen' months and then transferred here, whei-e i am to servfe the maximum sentence, such as is impoi«d on proh fessional criminals, and am I honestly believe you ne^^ intended for me. And not only must T serve the maximum penalty, but I must cairry scain three to foxir inches long, on head and skin, and am minus a tooth, all of which was inflicted personally by tihat velvet-handed tiger, that glib-tong-aed brute and scientific deformer (God save us from calling hiin a; reformer), Hon. (?) Z. E. Brookway, superintendent of the New Yoi-k State reforma- tory at Elmira. These same scars are visible to the naked eye. These eiame scans were inflicted by this, same Z. R. B. for the 'great crime' of my protesting, in a pos.itively gentle- manly manner ati first, againsf the report made by an about-toi-bs- paroled oonvidt who said I was talking on the gallery. Finding I was protesting in vain and kno^wing I was telling the truth, and knowing thiwt I would be bni tally punished, T made up my mind before going to the ' notoiriouH bat|hi-roiom,' to get satisfaction ont of this 'lying stool pigeon,' so I picked up and hurled at him a glass molassies jar and. blacking box, such as ail oonviots have, without hitting him. Hurriedly two convict keepers grabbed me, ' blackened both my leyes, inin me to the bath-roiom (more propei-l^' ' executip'n-room ') -^here the idol of prison reform cranks ham- mered me with a lead loaded paddle cracked my head, cut my leg, knocked a tooth out, knoicked me into insensibility (Broi-k- way's Physical Culture,' you know). " Then, when, I came to, was moved into the solitary dungeon, was taken out after four days and received some more ' Physical Culture,' Brockway branid, and then ttanslerred to a lonely out-of- the-Vray cell and kept there until wound on head healed, and for the reniiaiining eight months always kept in the lowest grade and fed on bread and water only, and finally to save me from expos- ing him I was tranHferaed here. " Noiw,, honorable sir, as I was sentenced by you and you under- stand my caise 'tlboroughly, I think you can but coincide with me in believing I am more than severely punished and had more than ftiy deserts, but being helpless in the matter I appeal to you to do 80 sometMng for me — that is, gettmg me released from hei-e. To keep me bere longer would not only not reform me, but would posi'tlvely degrade me and instill into luy mind that spirit of vengeamce wMcJi one who is deeply wronged and helpless in the mattei' without resources of any kind feels. "Kindly giTe this matter due consiideration and endeavor to sec justice done me. I am helpless A\ithout your aid, and I can but reiterate the hope that you will see me released. '■ Trusting you will kindly advise me at yonr earliest con^ vcnience as to what action you will take in the matter, I have ,"he honor to sign myself as, sir, "Yours very respectfully. " HUOH LA VPJEY, No. 1291, '■'■Jilmira reformatory, Consecvtive No. 36S2. Judge Hammond has written a letter to Governor Flower, ask- ing that Laveiry be pardoned at once. (.'asi' of AJbert Men-itt, Buffalo (now at Dannemora). Father's addressi, Thos. L. Merritt, 212 Pine street, Buffalo. " ?\ot a day passes that some new infamy of Paddler Brockway docs not come to light. f " Not only does he paddle inanates who are as healthy as an iiniiate of Ms place of horror can be, but he paddlas consumptives and the feeble-minded. " This the Ne^s knows, for it coiries to light in a tale of soicih bai'baric cruelty that it outshines the tales of terror which have been told before. ■' In 1891 there wei'e half a dozen boyis in this city who gave their relatives considerable worry. They were not partiiculariy ^ icioas boys, so far as can be learned at this time, but seemed to rather content themselves with petty little thefts of candy and cigarettes and flowers and the like. One time they stole some poiatoes and went off into a vacant lot and built a tire. They \vcrc roasting the pota,toes when they were arrested. •■ fSuch acts as these seem to be about the extent of the criminal caliber of the boys. " The father of one of these boys is well known m Buffalo. At one time he was considered strong in politics and was the friend and confidant of John C. Sheehan. His boy's mind was weak, and he could do little with him. In addition to this thte' boy was a sufferer from tuberculosis, and was very thin and weak all the time. I "It was for this rc^ison more than anything else that the boy ^\ as not punished severely by his father. Finally the boy got tx) going out nights with his companions, and his father, after taking* 81 advice, went before ^Tudge Seaver and had the boy sent to the Elmira reformatory. " He hoped he would improve physically and mentally under the ' physical ' treatment so widely advertised by the arch paddler, and there was every reajson to hope that, with light occupation and constant end on you to get me out. I would be thankful if yon would send me a little money to help get a few thiings to help build myself up. There is a village outside the prison where I could X>urchase little things in the eating line. So now, father, I must close. I really can't say much, I ajn . so overjoyed at what you have said in your letter. So, trmsting to hear soom^ I'll close. Fondest love, I am a loving son. , " ALBERT , No. 1811." " The father went awa\' yesterday to see his boy and learn just what condition he is in, physically and mentally. ' The letter was written by a prison attache, which leadsi the father to believe that the boy is lyiable to write." STATEIVIENT OF JOSEPH GRIFFIIsr (PAROLED), NO. 224 SENIPA STREET, BUFFALO, N. Y. fFrom Buffalo Evening News, August 10, 1893 ] "Editcr Evening NeiwiSL — While tihie country isi up in arms against Brockway and his brutal treatment of prisomjerai under his con9»l, I think it is tinue for me tx) slend yon my little mite. Of all the, letters yon have pulblislhed, of laibe> not one can I say exa^geSpEutied the truth. ■' Now, to show yon whecre his syis*em. is rotten, he will take two men who go diown together, one wto bias alwajisi led a good life, for assault amd baitteli^y, and aniother an habitual cmninal. He will put them in the same girame petty officer down on them, intkj the red isiuiit they go, and from the time they go in until they get) on* of that snit, Weiy aire a candidate for a paddlimg for ai tirifting offense. I was. one of the 83 few who meveir got a palddling myisielf, "buti I wwkedl in th.e hall, and have lieand ithteir isidneialmia of agony lajad tiheiifr ipleiaidLngs for mercy, aloD|g with Bnockway's coM, cynicall laiagh. "Another tihing I would Mke to write about is Biwdkiwiajy^is power o\-er his slaiveis, If tlhene wais lam investigatibm he would call up to his private ofBoe the pufeoners that he would have np before the committee, and say to them.', 'Ate ywi go4ag to testify against me?' and the prisoiner, not daring to isay 'has ^soiul was his own^ would, of cona-sie, say no. And if any investtilgiatitoi) ever comes up and a mjun testifies againsit hdm, anld he doesi not losle hlsi office. I would not give a dbllar foin that man's laibor fkw the coursie of ' his whole niatural life. " I have known Mim to paddle m'en for having itoibaccOi in their possession, anld then lock them up in solitary comiflnement for one month, two off thiriele montths. TMis sOilitary isi a cell in the siame block with (the 'rtestt,butJ it has two doors. One ilsi the iron bar door; the other ia a heavy scneen door, woven soi close together that you oould hajrdly isilick a pomi through the hoiesi, and nathii)|g but an ol'd bedltiick to sleep upon. There isl noi creading to pass ajway the tlima. Yet, ithiree months of thiat, half starved all the time, is enough to onlake ani Iddott of a man, and leave him a physical wreck, unfit to laisisiocdate with the outside world. " Snch is life in Elmira reformatory. " Youns restpeotfully. «J. G." " The object of the reformatory is the conpeotioo of otato, whfich mark I wiU carry to my grava I would be 8T wiJling to swear to the above statement and a great many more tilings which. I know of, if you desire to call upon me for a witness, as 1. stived four years and a ha,lf in the reformatory, and know of a few things which came under my observation, besides my own ciiso. If you desire to call on me you can address me as follows: "JOHN J. DELANEY, . I "No. 10 Tillary sl^'eet, BrooTclyn, N. Y. " ]'. S. — My consecutive number in the reformatory was 2909, but, thank God, I am now absolutely released from the retormatory. ■ ^' " Yours respectfully, t " JOHN J. DELAXEY." "Sing Sing, August 22, 1893. ^^Sfaie Board of Charities : ."Ueai' Sir. — I now send you these few, lines to let you know T was under Brockway's care for two years and two months, and I can give you a good statement of the Elmira tortui'e-house, and will be glad to do sio. I was paddled nine times, day after day, and handcuffed twenty-one days in the dark ceU on one meal a day, and loclied up |or nine weeks. " DAVID McOAJSTN, "Montagory street, Sirug Sing, N. Y. " Please call and see me. David McOann, Montogory street, Sing Sing, N. Y." "jBuj-falo, JSr. X, August 23^ 1892. " Hon. OscAE Ceaig : " My Dear Sir.— Exceedingly regret inability to see you person- ally, but the next besit thing I could think of was to call at the Buffalo Evening News office and explain to them my grievances, and wa« duly advised to write yoii, setting forth the cruel infliction received by my son at Elmira. I am in recdi|pt of a let tti' to-day from my son — the first I have received since he was sent to Elmira, 1891. Motherless and inclined to waywardness!, and v'eak-min,ded and easily influenced by the street urchins wftth whom he associated, he became involved in several petty thefts — causing me much worriment and expense — until, acting iijxi'n the advice of the then superintendent of police, Mr, Moriui, I did not interfere in the last case, and he was sent tO' Elmira, 88 where, as I was led to believe, lie would be benefited mora'iy, mtoitaJly and physically. When he was sent to Elmira he was in the iacipliient state of consumption, being, besides., otherwi!^ physically deranged. I supposed he was recedving the good treat- ment and benefits I had hoped for, until I had read somje of the charges against Biockway. I accidentally learned he had been removed to Uannemora, and immediately wrote him there. In answer 1 received a letter this morning, detaMing the honible treatment he had undergone at Elmira. Now, I shall take imme- diate isteps to procure his release, and in closing wish tio assiure you that I will be glad to have you command me in the forthcom- ing investigation. '" Sinceriely yours. " THOMAS L. MERRITT, " v:12 Pine street, 'Buffalo, M. Z." "12 SuMNBE Ave., Bkooklvn, August '25, 1893. "OsoAE Cbaig, Esq. : " Beair Siir. — As I am one of thloBie that hasi cause to make a complaind of the Elmira re&Kranator'y. I have a young man there, Joseph Ei'ancis DeTMeray, No. 5373. Last Sunday I went up to Elmira to see him, and it was with hard begging, and through tlie kindness of a Mr. Jamea B. (Dolbuon of the City Gazette, toi inter- cede for me that I got leave from Oomiai , for five minutes, and in that I had only buit a few heried wordsi witth him to learn that he had been flogged mOst unmercifully mieney times'. Pe, at that tim^ had a lajrgie slottte on has hand, ais large asi a dioiller peace, and had itowoirk with the eiame, do whiaAl I coiuld to do rilghit, it was imposatole nortMnig but charges all day long. Aftleir part- ing with Mm, I was shown hia lecoonda I find that he had been beeten five times, and' far the whole loit to^eitheir would noit amount to one. There is one charge shown to me of him cought amoving. I say if the wead haJd niot beeni there to tampt him he could not have had it, (it is like this), if I have sipite oni one manTget ajnoiiher to lay the tnaps w'hile I do the mean work of catching tihe victima My boy hiaH been theirle foir nearly two yeara He had only been there one modth when he was put in the loiwestt grade. This is dun to pitevent hiim from wrMfihg to his frendfei like all offlers. He was sienteinlceicll to one year, if good^ and not oveir five, and when your invesifcigiatang commiititee sleitsi, I shoiuld like yon to call up my boy for one of the helplesls^ that will tell the trough; and I now ©onclued. ' " Yoiuirs moBitl leslpieiotifully, "G. P. DeTHBBKBY," ' 89 " Buffalo, August 28, 1&98. '^State Board of Charities : "Dear Sta. — Wlhlilei coanflmeid to tttie State refoinmartwry ati Elmira, N. Y., wihieii ttihierie meariljy two years, I reoeLviedl 'brtital pimdsiiiiiieQt at the hands of Mr. Brocik'w'ay, whicih. if aay of ymir body "were to witniess woaldinioit alloiw any kmger in this Stqtte. I wals taifcen! to ithe bath-roiom, laffcer Ibeinig mudajeBsed, was told to istanid againlst tfce wiajE, lie struck me i>n thie face witih Ms fist; thjen about ten blows om the toajpe spine with thtei paddle; he then struck nue din the fsuctei, knioicking me uncoiDsicioiusi, then kicking mte a'll overt the floor till my eyeel weire blackened an|d my face was iswelled and mff bodly birjuisied; then put me i!ni solitary oonflme- menlt for about ten days on two ratiomia of bread and water a dlay. " I was pai-ioleid fromi the place in May, 1889; raoeiived my abs*> lute neleaae, Novemlheir, 1889, and= have led an homeet; life ever since. I woiiild Mke to be a witniess in thilsi investigatiom, but can ntvt beiair the eKpenlsle, as I am not working at present. Every wond this letter -ooiitainsi m the truth, so help me God. " Eespeotfully youra "AUGUST UlitlGH, "37.1 Greenwood avenue, Buffalo, If. Y." Clinton Prison; Dannemuea, N. Y., August 29, 1893. Statement of William Hogan, late a keeper in the New York State reformatory,! and who was reduced, from parole and ti-aniS- fenred to Clinitlon prison 19th July, 1892. " The Hon. Osoae Ckaig, President State Board of Charities, Albany, N. Y. : « Sir.— At an interview to-day with W. N. Thayer, Eisq., a^ent and warden of the above prison, I was infoimed that a legal investigatiotn is soon to be made regarding the management of tbe Elmira reformatorj'. Ini regard toi ithe recent ohai'ges of cruelty, and inhuman and unlawful treatment of many of the helpless inmates of that much boasted xeform' institution. " Thatt you desire from inmates and ex-inmatles of that insti- tution evidence and infon'mation of all acts of injustioe, craelty, ill-treatment and wrong-doing upon the part of the general super- intendent and oiiher officials of tiie siaid inistitution. 12 90 " I was sent to the reformatory November, 1888, on a charge of forgery in the second degree, which was forging a clueck for twenty dollair»; by my good beha^r I was released on parole on the 2d of December, 1889, and was employed as a paid official of the reformatory. In tlhat capaciity I reonjained for tihe space of eigMeen months, doing my dnty to the siatieifacition of tihe general snperuntendent and board of managens, for which I wa» promoted' in position and advanced in my salary. " In the month of Maj', 1891, I borrowed some articles of delf from the steward (the officer in' charge of the officensi'-kiitdhen), for a party I was gi^■ing in honor of my child's chrisitening. I was reported for so doing to the general siupertnitendenit, and with- out even an exiplanaition for my doing so, or being brought before the general superinitendenit or board of maniagersi, I was reduced from parole and placed in the third grade. By my good behavior I worked my way up again until I reached tihe upper first grade, which was on the 1st of January, 1892; a few days after, I was placed in charge of the trade schoolR After holding that position for the g|)a)ce of three monitihs I wais ag'ain paroled and employed as a paid official of the reformatory and remained in thiait capacity until the 18th June, 1892, when a charg'e of immoral conduct was nuade against me by inmate 3261, Bonner, one of the worst char- acters of itlhe refonnaitory, which could noit be prorven or 8U,b- stantiated against me. " I was placed in solitary confinement, still wearing my officer's uniform, and fed on bread and ^\'ater, until the evening of the 2i)i]L of June, 1892, wheir, after a kind of a star<5hamber examina- ticui, conducted by Colonel Bryan and ex-convicts Hoppe and Halpin^ I was reduced from parole, placed in the third grade, and again placed in solitary confinement and fed on bread and water, and Avas', on the 19th of" July, 1892, transferred to Clinton prisoiL , " .My conduct since my arrival in Clinton prison has been .excel- li'iil, to which the warden can vouch for, and I am at present itolding the resi)onsible position as accountant in the manufach Turing department of the prison. I was not allowed to either write or receive any letters from my wife previous to my transfer to (Jlinton prison, and whatever the general superintendent told her was bis reason for transferring me to Clinton prison I never cO'uld learn, as I only recei-^ed one letter from my wife since my am-ival liere, -and which was dated from her home in Ireland, and which was couched in a rather cold manner; since that I have received no letters from my wife. "Under the rules of the i"eformatory an inmate yeleasled on ]iai'ole after six months' good beihavior, to the satisfaction of the general 'snperintendent and boai'd of managers, receives hiisi abso- ' 91 lute release, wMcli was denied me, as I was an ofBicer of th.e insti- tition (so tie general superintendent infonned me when I asked him after my six monthis on parole), but under what law or rule I ¥/as denied that privilege (as i;iotliMig to that effect was in my parole pai)eris), I have never been able to find out. " Now, honorable sir, after heaiing :stated the fact in. a concise^ ttnutlhiftoL and punctaiail mmiinier, aind poisi'tdlV'eiljy' assertiiinjg my inmo- cence as regards the charge of immoral conduct, and feeling I am the victim of an atbitraxy act (an,d such acts are not uncommon in the said Elmira refoirmatory), I appeal to you to allow me to testify before the committee at the forthcoming investigation. '■ During my time of being an officer of the reformatory many acts of injustice and cruelty came under my pensonal notdJoe, and many more were related to me by the poor victims that have been subjected to the most inhuman cinielty and physii,cal torture. One case which came under my personal notice while I was officer in charge of the hardware finishing department was the cruelty that wais pnactioed. on a young maaii by the name of Johnson, who was working in the hardware department, and who was unable to do the impossible tasks that were required of the men of that depart- memt. Winnie, the piiincipal keeper, took the poor fellow, punched and kicked him about the floor as if he was some kind of a foot- ball instead of a human being. The man's body was covered with bi'uises, and he was unable to stamd at hi® machine, and I had to send him to his cell. " Another case that also came under my personal notice was that I oE 3360, mines (since transferred from Clinton pirison to the insane asylum). I and three more men were ordered by the offtcer in cliarge of the stone-cuttinig depai;tment to take Hines to the hos- pital (Hines was subject to fits, and ^vas after having one at the time we were ordered to take him to hospital, and had fallepai down and cut his head). We met the principal keeper, Winnie, at the oenibeir! gattle, and he 'asked wh.eirie we vrarie takilnig HineS' to. I replied that he had had a bad fit. Winnie told us to lay him down in the middle of the road and get back to our work. He was let lie in that position until the doctor came along and ordered him to the hospital. " Another case was of 3682, who was paddled twice in one day, knocked down in the bath-room and kicked by Officer MoNish in the head and cut open. The doctor was oWiged to put several stitches to close the wound. " Another case was a young man by the name of Oox, who was a regular imbecile, and who was taken to the bath-room and hit across the eve with the paddle, which kept his' eye closed for sev- eial days. He was transferred to Clinton prison, and liaa since been transferred to the State asylum at Matteawan. "Another case A\ajs 4249, paddled so often (simply for rejwii'tsi) that he could not keep the record of them. He was plaiced in the phjTsioal culture class, under Keeper Benthold, who used to punch and hi'tl him with a stick when, fro'm weakness, he was unable to go through the exercises. I am quite willing and feel it a duty I not only owe to myself an.d otihens that have sraffered at lihe hands of Supei'initendent Brockway and his bath-room officials, and in the interest of justice and humanity, to testify before your committee, if the opportunity is given me, to tell under oath of the cnielty and injustice I have experienced and wit- nessed, both while an officer and an inmate of the Elmlra reforma- tory. I can not bring myself to finish thjsi sitatement without stating one or two more caisea that happenied during my sojourn in the reformatoiry. " The case of 5178, sent to the reformatory 1892, dnd employed in the novelty works. Had a perfect record, was reported for making a hoi«e-hair chain and giAnng same to an officer and was reported for so doing. Reduced to tlie third gradei, taken to the bath-room, hung up by the wrists amid paddled, seized by the throat by ex-Convict Halpin and kicked by Brockw'ay, taken, back to the solitary and brought to the bath-room the next day, punched and kicked about the floor to tell who he gave the chain to. He refused at first to tell, but in order to save hie life he; liad to confess, was taken back tlo the solitary, wasi takem orat and placed in a cell by Dr. Wey. He was afterwards transferred to Clinton prison in the month of July, 1892; been only foiur months an inmate of the reformatoory. " The last case I wish to state of the hundreds I (X)uld menitlion was one by the name of Burke who, because he resented a report that was given him by another inmate officer, was struck on the head -mth one of the wooden guns that they use to drill the men in the regimerut, by a paroled officer by the name of Dough^' erty. The foirce of the blow laid Burke's head' open. He had to be taken to the hospital to get 'his head attended to; then he was placed in the solitary cells and chained toi the floor. Now, sir, trusting I may receive an aclmoA^ledgment to the above stelfie- ment, and hoping you will see justice done me, I beg tlo remain'sir, " Respectfully youws'. "WILLIAM HOGAlSr, No. 1788. "P. S. I forgot to mention that the warden of Clinton prison has promised to aid me in getting transferred back to the reforma- tory, but I think that under the present administration I would 93 not gaia ajniytihlmg by being sia tpaJisfeM^fiid'. If ajftj* the intvesti- gation itfliere should: be a ohange maide in the goivernmeut of the refomnatoiy I would feel thankful toi those Avho -would geit me tramsiferaed, but under the present system I am better off in State pirison. " BespecttPuUy. i "W. HOGA^, No. 1788." " Wellseoeo, Tioga Co , Pa., August 29, 1 893. " Hon. OscAE Geaig, Bochester, JSf. T. : "Belair Sir. — My boy was isieoat to the Eltmiiria refoTinatary laist November. "I did it myiseif because I wasi deceived.- " I went thaxKugh the inistitntioni and Brockway'ia fine talk, his theolrieis, hia lies, made me believe he waJs presidSng offlcep otf a high gmaJde ref omn school, aaid the woird pirisoini was an insult to the insitatuMoni. "I eiaid to BrtJicikway thait if I placed my boy there it would be beldainjsle I had confldence in him to take a fafther's place in discipline over the boy; teach him steady habits, and the valne of money. " I was tireatted with the gneartiest respect 'and oourtesiy. " I sent my onie baby, a noble boy, up there. "I dirove up in the laftieimoon, as' per agreemjenit, to see my friein/d, Mr. Brockway, 'arad get the btoy's clofthing. "I was met by the tiger. He showed his' teeth. I wasi only the motheai of ome of the beasts in his cage. I stagfeeneid OTit amd honaie. I have lived, have prayed sioi earnestly that my, strength would hoild out for the yeiair, ^m* I thonght Brockway ooiuldi not go back ooi hiisi woind to send my boy tk)i me in a year. " I have seen my child but 'once; he was put down in that grade of homoris. " I .wrote to Bi^oiokway; I plead to him, only toi receive a letter ,oif inlstult. " My boy was lane of the aninuals placed in, a higher cage in July, the seven mionthls losit not eoiutatSlng towards Ms release. "The is/traili was so great my health was rnilied. I am an invalid. I oomid molt ■i'isit hiim. I sent one of our town merchants to (See amd teM him why I ooiuld not vMt him. "The gentleman not 'allowed to see him. My faJther went; c0Uld only see hfilm five mihiutes with 'a keeper istanding close. 94 " He is looMrfe bad. Ealtbeir asked if he wm pmiiisihieid. Reply, ' I can not siay a worti,' hat a few whispered woMs tell of awful horrors. " My health will not pemndib me to resbd of this matter in papiers OiT hear Mends talk of it much. "I only loioiw therei isi ito be or that yon a^e to conduct an inresiti'gatioii'. I wianti to s'ee you; I must see you. I ^^&3ii to flee you for youx services. Tlie boy expects gnajde reducrtaioni'agiaiiin, as he will neyetp miafee a tool for Brockway; hence his dislike to the 'boy. We fear he will not live toi oome out. " I expect to go to OooMiig, any day, aflter the thiiitieth tnisitaiiit, to see Ool. Lath'iop, inspector of prSsloms, an|d twan there to Elmira, and I wish to know wiheai and where I may siee yoiu. "And, now, ISIr. Oraig, I diepend iipon your hioinoir as a gentie- ma'n, niolt to use in lanywiay, one woird of this until I see youi,, and know what ihe result is' to be, for Brockway mulstt niot know thiat u^- boy has hinited at the horrore of which he kmoiws, for he says it would result in a most cruel death for Mm. I trust you with this because I am acquainted with you by reputaftion, asi it ilsi only four yeajra since I moved from Eochester to thiiisi plaice. " I can refeii you to influential fWlemdls there, if it will further my object. " Mr. Oradlg, do not refuise Ito siee me tecaiusle of thlinking to nueet a crying, hysiterioal wotmien. I have no teairSi for tbisi tnoublie; sympathy will not help me. I only wanit justicie, and I am capalble of dkang buslilD|ess in a businesisi-like way. I awiait amrioulsiy your reply, for which! I iniclose isttampsi. ' "Mk3istl respeictfully. " Mrs. LEE SMITH." HAIIRY LABLAJSrOHE^ 1821. "Clinton Phis'N, "Danxemoka, N. Y., September 12, 1893. " To the Hon. Oscar Cbaig, President State Boa/rd of Cha/rities Albany, W. T. : " Deal- Sir. — Hearing of the investigation of the Elmira reforma- tory, f.nd being a victim of said institution, calls to my memory some very brutal sights and experiences which I srhall endeavor to here relate, and also how I became a convict at the above place. On the 5th of June, 1801, my partner in crime and mwelf were sentenced. My partner, being the actual criminal, and standing trial, was sentenced to two years and three months to Sing Sin"-. 96 Myself, pleading guilty, and merejy implilcated, wa^ sent fcoi Elniii'a, ^^heI'e I was told I could get out am one year. The thir- teenth. of Jun.e I arrived there. The superintendent i(nterTiewed me privately. He asked me numeTOus questions, one being was I uiai-ried. I told him I A^as, also when, and where, when he said: 'OKI YeSs, I isiee; a. very likely sforf. Your wife isi siome whore ; an old prostitute; a Boweiy street walker, is she ?' and forbid me to write to her. Some time after I interviewed him again in regard to' writing to my wife. He let me write a letter, but never mailed -it, as the librariau, a friend of mine, told me he never seen it (he dmiecitjs aiE nOuail). Oomlslequeiitily never Iheaird) from hter, as shie was ignorant of my trouble. Six months later by chance I heard she "Aiis dead. I endeavored my utmost to comply with the rales of the institution and earn my parole. But hard as I would try, luck Wcis against me. I say luck, because it's only a matter of luck — dhajnice.. I was working in itihe hiaill, and all wluo enteradi or came from the bath-room had to pass me; and daily he would have a list of victims to visit the bath-room, but by the appearance of the victims upon being released it seems his physical developer dis- agreed with them, for when they would not be covered with a coat or blanket and carried up to the hospital unconscious, they woidd exit staggering from Mealcness, as if drunk. He not aloae paddles, but pounds, stamps, kicks, not alone the kidneys, but all over the head and body. To be cut, scarred, marred and beaieu entii*ely out of shape is a very frequent occurrence, and very often with a wide red nmrk across the face, resembling a birthmark. But the birth of the mark originated from Brock- Avay's oiled strap. The rescue cells were on my section, and on numeious occasions they failed to feed the uien, ^N'hich I, not wilhout a great deal of risk, fed. ^V year ago last June the water was unfit to use, from the stench and filth; it looked like coffee, with abundance of milk. The officers were entitled to' clear spring water. One day T took a drink of tJie spring water, and got a report for it. On another occasion I was troubled with cramps in llie stomach; it was during military. I had to go to the closet. I got a chocolate report for it. That loses one mark, and they stand. Wlien, you tell the colonel, he gives you the choice of going in and get a chocolate or go back to ranks. I had endured such life and sights of brutality as long a.s, I could, and told another fellow that I would like to escape. He told the superin- 'endent. I was confined to solitai^, an. iron-bound cell, chained on my iback to the floor and left itiher^ for weeksi, to lie in my own excremjent. My wrist wasi siwoMeni so larlgie thie shackle was sunken belo^A- the flesh. On asking them to loosen it. they would reply, 'O, 1 guess you're all right.' On, being released from solitaiy I 96 cimld not walk for a time, and could not keep my eyes open froi tlio i>ain tlie light caused tkem. I was also reduced to the low€ grade, and sent to the iron foundry to work, where, no ma.tt€ \\]i(^iier the iron is cold or hot, we were compelled tO' eave or work. I toave seem men pour molten inom in Itiheip sihoeisi in, onde to get out of there for a few weeks, but if burnt purposely c aiccidentaUy they are all tireated alike, thus: Oonflned in ai empty cell; a hard' bed and water-cup is all tlhey have, and fen on bread and waiter omoe a day. I toiled and slaved so hard ii there, asb times I had to stop or faint, and stop mean® a repoor for loaifing. Such was thfe enormity of thie talsk nequired and th food so insuflScient. My back often paiiJed me; I hurt it fiv yeairs ago. I seen the doctor, told him I had a weak back, beinij caused by a stra.in, and withotit examination or even tlouohinj me 'he said: 'You're a falte. Did it ever bottftuer yon outside? 'Not veiry oiftran.' 'What did jyaa work at?' 'Tlheatricate 'ami show business.' ' You're a bum ; a loafer ; go back to work am , don^t bother me again or I'll chalk you in,' which means a flog ging. I gained the second grade in six moniths, and asked 't!h superintendent if he would not take me out of the foundry, a I thought I received enongh punishment for the errror I mad while a new man. (He fined me 153 marlas for attaupting t escape. That barred me fPoim parole oir shonti time.) He sia^xi was not put in the foundry for puniisihment Not thinking, I said ' 'i'es ; I was.' He said nothing but struck full from the shoulde at me. I ducked the blow and he siaid; 'Ah, pretty fly, eh You stay in the foundry; we want good, qnitek mien tiheiria' Neeic less to say I thought so too. Three months' aifter gaining th second grade I was drafted to ClintO'U prison for attempting t escape, it can hardly be called planning 'tlo escape, and 'this is tih only thing they hare against me. In his drafting me I hav nearly three times as 'long to serve in prison as the actual crimi nal. who wms released from Sing Sing the sixth of l£ist April, would by far rather prefer tO' remain here my maximum fiv yeiirs than to chance tlhat place again. Upon another ocoasioi on entering my cell I noticed a piece of paper on the floor; picked it up. Count was O'n, and the oflfioer seen' me pick it n and asked for it; I gave it to him, not looowing its contents o ev-en opening it. He sitlated that much to the colonel. Abou fifteen minutes later I was talten out of my cell and put i solitary. Next morning the colonel came to see me. I told hit how it happened. I think he believed, as I wasi only left ther for three daysi; then' they put me in the rescue for a week. No^ I misised two nights in the physics class, and the sainie night was releasied Was examination in physicis. I told them I ha 97 missed two ouijUnes, being absenit. THiey statedl it wiais nioiti their fault I f aileid and spoke to tJie superiniteiiidteait about it, and said I hia/d a nalnie, if Ihe would elscusie my failuiriei in physicis, asi I blaid no oiutlinielSi, beiug absent two nightts on. aocoiuiilt otE beinig in solitary for somethiiig I knew nothing aboiuit. He saidi I would not be put' in soilitairy if I didn't have something to do with it. Then I siaid the colonel has fully investigated my case and is satilsffljeid I am. imiioicemjt and know nofcMng aboult tte ujote, and "moreover to oonvinoe you of his belief I ireoeived no repont^ wlhicih I should if I was guilty, or if he even for a moment thought so. Superintendent, Well, I'll see that you get a report,' and I got one, a oliocolate, fining me three dollairs. I sent it back with note attached, asking the colonel, if after investigating my oasie and finding me inmooenit, I was to get a report for it. He canceled It. The superintendent would not excuse my failure, but politely informed me I had no business to get in trouble, and I wouldn't miss no outlines or lectures. I dropped him a note stating I couldn't see how he expfected me, or any other person, to pasB' an examination they know nothing about, and ask h im to recon'sider it. This note I thought would pat me to' th.e bath-room. The fact was I was completely discouraged and did not care. But , no, he didn't paddle me, but put my name on the tpamsfer-list, and the following week I wiais drafted for an ineorrigible chanaioteir. . I write the nature of my case and experience fon the purpose of showing clearly how unjust I have been usiedl — also hiow unjust I am yet remaining in prilsian. Whereas if I had any chance 'alt all I should have earned a parole. An'd as far as being incorrigible, my record of fouitieen months at the place being absolutely perfect, I think sufficient to convince you other- wise, and sincerely 'hope you wiU take my ease into consideration and see that I neoeive justice, which I think I ought toi at least be entitled to. . ) l " Thanking you for the interest you have taken in our behalf, "An unfortunate. "H. LABLAJSrOHE." 13 PROCEEDINGS. Present. — Hon. Oscar Graig and Dr. Stephen Smith, members of the committee; Hon. Francis R. Gilbert, Depiity Attorney- General; James O. Fanning, eecretaiy of the committee; James M. Knso, stenographer of the committee; Dr. William 0. Wey, Mr. M. H. Arnor, Mr. James B. Rathbone and Mr. Benjamin Jj. Swart- wood, of the board of managers; Zebulon R. Brockway,, superintendent. The conunittee met at the 'State reformatory a;t Elmira, N. Y., on Tuesday, September 26, 1893, at 10 o'clock a. m., when the fol- lowing i)roceiedings were had: Inquiry haTiag been made as to whether newspaper reporters should be admitted, direction of the committee was given to admit aU reporters and correspondents of newspapers at the opening of the investigation, and until further ordered. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Litchfield, the third member of the committee, has not arrived. If there is no objection the proceedings -will begin, and continue without his presence, and until he can be present. Before the formal opening of the inT€6*i:ga,tion, the pre- liminary question will be considered, namely, whether the heaiv ings for the presentation of oral testimony shall be public or with closed doors. Mr. Brockway. — May I make a remark ? Mr. Oaig. — Certainly; you are invited to. Mr. Brockn^ay. — It seems to me that question ought to ble divided into two questions; there are two classes of testimony to be submitled, as I understand; there is the testimony of the indi- viduals, whose testimony has been submitted in the fonn of your formal charges. iThere is the testimony of persons not now con- nected with the reformatory, and then there is the testimony of the prisoners within the reformatory. I suggest, without expressing any opinion about it, that it might be well to consider the question under those divisions, a very important difference betAveen an open session for outside testimony und the introduction of the public among the convicts of a priBon establishment on such an investigation. 99 Mr. Craig.— I think tlie dlTison of ihast queigitloii into the Ifwo bi-anches is very proper to be considered apart. Has'tte president of the l)oard of managers anything to offer ? Dr. Wey. — Not anything, sir. Mr. Craig. — Has the present acting superintendent anything to sugg(S3t on tha/b point ? Dr. Wey. — He is not here at the moment. Mr. Craig. — We will wait for him. Mr. Eathbone was sent for and appeared in the committee room. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Eathbone, you are the acting superintendent of the reformatory at the present time ? Mr. Eathbone. — Yes, sir. Mr. Craig.-T- Pending this investigation ? Mr. Eathbone.— Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — The preliminary question is before the committee, namely, whether the hearing at the sessions shall be with open or closed doors, and the soiggeslion has been made that that question should be divided into two quesitions, namely, whether the hear- inf^s away from the reformatory should be with open or closed doors, and, second, whether thosie, if any, within the reformatory should be with open or closed doors, and you are invited to make any suggestions on those points. Mr. Eathbone. — Well, Mr. Craig, I have no suggestions to make in the matter at present. Mr. Craig. — Will the Attomey-Greneral advise ? Judge Gilbert. — I think it hardly proper for me to say anything in reference to the matter until it is determined in what ca/paioity I am to appear here. Mr. Craig. — That is the point that will come up after the foisnal opening. Judge Grilbert. — Until that is determined I tMnk I ought not to express anything wha;tever. After consultation with Dr. Smith, Mr. Craig said: The com- mit it e have come to the follo-^ing conclusions: That, obsielrving the distinction that was suggested resolving the question into two S!ib-()uestions, the first question being whether the hearings and sessions away from the reformatory building and premisies shall bo open or closed; the decision is that on that branch of the ques- tion the hearings shall be open. With reference to the second rpiesfion there is more embarrassment. There are obvious advantages aud disadvantages in eithter course, as is apparent to anyorje familiar with the history of priison ihvesttigatiomsi. ^ The disadvantage of an open session within prison or reformatory walls as shown by the history of such investigations, includes the danger, or, perhaps we might say, the tendency to incilte revolt 100 ov imsurrection, and the violation of proper prison or refoomatory rules. But, giving due weight to that consideration, the committee liave come to the conclusion that even the hearings within the reformatory walls must, within certain limitations and reaison- able conditions to be imposed by the committee from time to time, be open. A reasonable limitation to that is thait the public at large shall not be invited or permitted to enter, and that admisr sions shall be by cards or other proper tokens or assurances that the persons who come here are entitled to come. All reporters and correspondents of newsipapers who come here in good faith to report the proceedings will, under this rule and limitation, be admitted to the hearings within the reformatory walls. Another condition is, and it ought not to be necessajy to mention it, but the history of such investigations makes it proper and advilsiable that it should be mentioned here, that all persons who are. admitted to the hearings within the reformatory wall.^ shall observe the rules of the reformatory and shall carefully and absolutely rt-frain from any communication with or attempts to communi- cate with any of the convicts^ directly or indirectly. There shall be at no time any communications of any form or nature with any convict within the reformatory ^\'alls without the permission of the acting superintendent or the managers or the investigating com- mittee. Of course, any violation of any of these conditions would forfeit the right of admission to any future hearings or sesslilons. 3Ir. Brockwiiy. — "SVhether any reporter who has already violated that would be admitted, I would like to ask. Mr. Craig. — ■ This caution has been given, by the committee, and I don't think we ought to go back and nunc pro tunc, as we would say in courts make any ruling on that subject. Mr. Brockway. — Start in on the supposition all reporters are honorable men. Mr. Oaig.— We have no right to start in with any other supposition. Mr. Brockway.— Except they have shown it. Mr. Craig.-— We have no right to start iu with, any other supposition, and any masieo'nduct on the part of anyone not con- nectejd wiUi the ve&mmsboij prior to the opening of ihm investiga- tioD^ of course, dom't come within our jurisdicition, but any mis- conducJt, pendimig iJie investlgatiom, would be conisidered as barriing such pereoott from future 'admissfiion,. Now, having disposed of that preliminiairy question, I will make the following statements ■ iq the formJail opening of tihe inivelsltigation. 101 STATE OF ]NEW YOEK: State Boahd of Charities. ) Capitol, Albany. j Amnonrniaeimeiilt is hieiteby msD^e tlhiat iJke invesitftgaJtioini iinitjoi tbie iiitemiiai adiministpatioiii and gemleiPal ooaixiitioiii tof tte State reformiatrary, lait Elmira, with, inqtury into cases of lalleged crnelljij CO" injuisti'ce toiWiarid inmattes, wliicfh. hiajsi Tjeem already ordered ^by the Stiaibe Board of Clianitieis, wiU be condtujcted befora its oom,- mittee of ttaee, coDipioised of itis presidleiat, Oscar Craig, amd otne of its memlbena firioim: the city and county of New York, SitlaJte fJo(mmisisione advices foom Mr. Faflwmni I have postponed th^ opening of the inlvesitSgartiiioia untSLi TueSdlay' the twelDty-saxtih iastant, at tte mme hour and places and have tel^maphed the pdsrtjponemmt to eadh one of (you. i hiave telegraphed to Dr. Smith; both a* New York anjd TajrTytx>wn, and 103 to Mr. Utdh&eia, or Mb ©lelrk, Fo. 59 WaU ,atpeeti New York cjty A lettlter of Mr. LitcMeld, of SefptemSber se^^emtih, ladTisted me thait lie wm to go imto the AdinpiQdacfca, but did not give me hiis aiddmess tlhjem I tmstt, tLbweiveir, luBi clerk will telelgWaipflii to Ihiim. My telegmta to Mr. Fairnning, requested' Mm to ajdvis© Mr Bmoickway, Dr. Weiy, the Atltoimey-Geinieral, the New York Tribune the New York W;orld, tbe Buffalo New® and all parties i^ mtenest, amd the Asisiociialted Press, of the poisitpo-Dlement. I hiaTC just dictated a 'circular letter' to thie memibtersi ol the boiani, who mustt nartiurally feel some solicitude over tbe inrestiiga- tiom,, explaining jihe procedure, the reasionis! for the delays^ atad tbe gemieral isatuatioii, copies of whicih wiH be mailed' to- you. ;' "Simicerely youra OSOAR CEAEa, President To Dr. Stepihieiiii Smith, E|dwaaid H. LitdhfleM, Esq., merabersi of io'vesitigaiting committlee, and J. O. Famminig, seciretary of thje committee." Mr. Qraig. — The imvestigatioui of tbe New York State E.efor'mar ■tlory at Elmira, wMob, on the request of its mauaigers, and with tbe apiproval of tbe Goivemor, bas been ordered' by the State Board of Obarities, is now opened. It will be conducted by the special committee of tbe board, appointed for tbe purpose, with the counsel and' aidi of tbe Atttorney-G-eneral. It ■w^ be con- tinued until proofs shall be obtained of tibe general facts relating to tbe discipline, tbe management, and the comditiO'n of tbe imstituttion. Tbese general facts of 'administration' aire tbe ultimate points of inquiry, by wbicb tbe relevancy and impoirtanoe of particular issues and cases will be determined. It is tbe purpose of tbe investigajting committee to comflne tbe examinartion to evidence which may be conoluisiye or conivin)oing» and to exclude that wbicb would be merely cumulative. It will be itbe endeavor of the dotmmi'ttee tlo limit tbe el^HeKditurefS of tbe moneys of tbe State and of 'tbe tune of its servants, sO' fair as may be practicable, and to make tbe bearings an'd proceedings as concise as may be consistlent with tbe discovery of all ^e material facts. This investigation will be without fear or favor, unmoved by public clamor and uninfluenced by tbe high repute of the reforma- tory 'and its superintendent with tbe penlolo'gistsi 'and oruninal antbropoloigiHtB of America and Europe. If hitherto there has not been fuU revelation of practices or events which Aould 104 influence suoli neputatioiii, oip alwrve all, affec* the oharaoter behind it> they will now be dieooyered amid dieoloisied. This invesitigatioiQ is begun with the legal presumption tihat all the charges which have been reduced to writinig, t&igned by the oomplainanits and filed in the office of the board ini the capital, are unfounded until eatablishedi by proofs. In determiniag the oomh petency of evidence, its technical rules may be dipegairded, but its underlying and goA-emmg principles wlU be observed and followed. The oral testimony of witnesses will be taiken under oath, subject to the pains and penalties of perjury, sancitloaied^ by the 'Statute which empowers the board to make the invesitigatioai. In addition to the evidenice on the hearingsi, it will be legiti- mate for (the iniveistiigaitikig committee toi observe f aicts! and obtafln proofs by personal inspectaon, in pursuance of the provisionis of statute, as well as in analogy to the procedure of. a court of chancery, and of the powers of the Supreme Court of the State ou' its equity side in relatiom to State institlutions. The statute has received judicial construction to the effect that the State Board of Charities may direct its investigations in its own ways, omitting or excluding counsel, and holding open or s(?cret aessionis. Inquiries have been made respecting these points of procedure; the investigating committee has just decided to make the proceedings open, reserving the right, however, to reverse the rule and for the present limiting it to oral hearings and even to only such of them as may not tend to interfere with the proper discipline of the reformatory. Personal inspection wiU generally, and until further order, be jjrivate. It is proper to say, further, that the Attorney-General, having bleean invited b(y the committee to presemtl tlue evildenioe which may he offered in affirmance of the charges, and all evidence in behalf of the reformatory, its managers and superintendent which may be suggested in denial or justification or mitigation, the exanoination of all witnesses will be conducted by him, unlesis otherwise ordered. On this point, however, the procedure may be regarded as stiH opem for revieiw atod decfflsioD, aaiid the couuisel for the siujpe(rla- tendent and managers is invited to present his views, if any, in favor of admitting himself or other counsel in the examination and cross-examination, of Avitnesses. If, as has been contemplated, the Attorney-General shall alone represent both sidesi, and one side as much as the other, in analogy to the judge advocate in a court- martial, private counsel and all persons will be invited to present to him witnesses and interrogatories on both direct and ctosb- exaiuination. But iitf, on the contrary, private counsel shall be admitted to take part in the hearings, the Attorney-General will 105 be couTWted into prosecutiag cbunisel for the presentation of but one side. This counse lias seemed to be nn.called for and unwise. But it is hoped that all the parties in interest may take the oppo^ site view of what is the proper procedure in thisi matter. , Mr. Oiaiig. — I would ask tihe president of the btoaird of mamagietrs whether any iclounsel represienting the managersj or superinii tendent of the reformatory is present. i>r. Wey. — No, sir. Mr, Craig.— I would then ask the president, any proper person, to state his views, if any, on this suggested point of procedure, as to whtethJer coiunisiei oitiheii? tihan the Attotmey-Geoemil sihould be r.dmitted to examine and crossi-examine witnesses^ Dr. Wey. — I think we should reserve our judgment in regard to that until the inquiry progresses, and learn something of its drift in that direction. I suppose the right is given to the man- agement at any time, if they desire, in the course of this. The order that has just been read by the chairman I suppose could be suspended or revoked, could it not ? Do I understand an order given at the beginning must prevail to the end ? Mr. CkaSSg. — Not nieiceBislairiiy, no. The pointfe' ilnl all qujeistions of procedure are to be considered with reference to what is the best procedure to get at the merits of the case. Dr. Wey. — Exactly. We want to see that matter p&eA, to see its worldng. At present we acquiesce ia the decision of the court in nesipect to thie mianmen ttoi be pnrsuedi here in conducting the invesitigatliion. Mr. Cnalg. — Hap the Attomiey-Geneirai atnjythfilng to siay on that subject? Judge Gilblerit, — NotMnig further than tMsl I a,ppear ia bteWalf of the AttoMJiey-Geneml, under inlsitimctSonisi to aid, as f aa" aB I am able, thlte conmiutitee in getting at the truth, witih irelferieiiLce to the isiubject off tiha^ inquiry. As far asi I am able, to probe the miatrtJett to tihe very Tbottbrn', lapd add tihe commititee in presienting all proof that cian toe presented shotwing the manner in' which thisi institution has bieieliij nDatnteiiged, 'and! i am instractied' toi do tihisi without negand td it^ effect upon any individual or set of indi- vildualis, m the conslequences which may follow, arid if it is decided oin thle part io(f the managttnemt!,- and of the siuperinftendent, that I shall ocoupjy the position of narther a neutral oir indifferent posi- tiion, under obligation to oaM out the facts upon- boith' sides, investi- gaifce aia thiorwu'glhly otn' the pairt of the people m I would on the part of tihe mlanaigement, or thle 'stuperintfendent, and as thomoughly on tiheam piairt as I wonld! on! tihe other side, I will emdeavoE to diisldhtage tharfi durftf to my best ability. It wUl be a very hard pobition, I concedve, to fill priopelrlly. If, on the otiher haod, it 14 106 shoTold be determilnied; a* amy itime, as iutimatedi on tihle pairt of tlie board of miajniagers or on itke pairt of tiie siuperintelideati, tih;at tliiey will appeal by conmsel, then, Mr. Qhairiman, it must be distSmcttly undenstbood tharti firom tlhat moimjent I will not oocnpy tite neuffcral position refeinred to, but' I must be permitted, bo far ais I am ooflolneoted with, tihe inquiry, to represent the people with full opportunjity to examine, in cldief , siu'oh witneeisies laisi may be* pne- senited in tlheiiE behalf, and to cmofes-esamine to eiucli extemlt asi I may deem proper, aind as the committee may deem p(tx)per, those wltnessies that are binougiht m siuppoait of the malnaigememt. But a very ilaiK)rtant question airises in my mind, as to whetlhjeiri or mlot tte boiaipd of manjagemient, on the sujjeruiteMient, should be per:- mitbed to appear by coiunisel, after the p(PO!ceeidi!agisl haye been commenced amid witaesisies esaminfed^ because youi will obslenve that if I peifkJTm the duty which I am nequired to perfbrm, in endeavoirilng to obtain the f&cits upon one side aisi well asi upon the other, thiat the witnesisies prodtuced down tO' the point whlen they shall appear by counsel, might be dealt with einltlLMy, itni a different mianner, and they might be stubjected toi a very differieaxt examination from what they would be subjected to if I was reprle- senting solely the people; so I think that they ought toi determine now, deflniitely, as to wlhether they wiU on wiU not appeaa? bjy counlsteiL Mr. Craig. — Before you enter upon the examination of any witnesses ? Judge Gilbert. — Ye«, sir. As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, it Ls the duty of this committee, and it is the duty of the represen- tative of the Attorney-GetDieinal, to obtain as fuUy asi possible ail faio(tsilelaitingtathema|ntn)etriiii which, thisl imstit'utioni hasi btetn oomiduicted. If it is true that it bas been condtictedi iu a manmeir and is accomplishing the purpose which was designed in its estab- lishment, then the people are interested in having that manage- ment continue; they are interesited in having this institution car- ried foiTvard as it has been. If, on the other hand, the manage- ment has not been what it should be, the people should know that. We ought not, in short, to be engaged in an effort to tear down what i.< right or to injure the institution if it is conducted prop- erly, and I should feel it is just as much my duty, so far as my (;oniiection with this proceeding is concerned, to seie to it that the truth is presented with reference to the management, and if it is I'ight that the people should know it. They are entitled to know that facL, and it is due the management and due the superln;- tendent that they should know it, and on the other hand, as. I have stated, if it is true that the institution is not conducted in such a manner as to secure the ends which the people had in view in 10? ostablMiing it, that should be known, and I wUl endeavor to make it known. I do not know that I have anything further to say. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Brockway, we ought to hear from you on that subject. Mr. Brockway. — I am entirely satisfied to go on, as' far as I am interested, in any way that the commisBion shall decide. And I wisii to make a single remark, with no view to changing the atti- tude of the commission toward the question under consideration', and ihat is that thene is a prosecuting oflScer or officers now just outside of the door. That fact ought to be fairly understood. Mr. Craig. — I do not understand what is meant by that. Mr. Brockway. — If you wish me to explain I will. The fact is that a powerful newspaper,, with a corps of artists and reporters, with, as I am credibly informed, a most liberal expenditure of money, is pros.ecutii!ng us. They have opened a series of roomsi here, an office in Ehnira, and are hunting evidence and quoting witnosLses, and stand just outside of the door prosecuting this thing. 1 make that statement, thinking that possibly the presi- dent of the commission and other commissioners may not be so well aware of it as we are, and I repeat, I make it with no wish or espectation tx) change the decision of the commission or the attitude taken by the Attomey-Greneral in his remarks, and so far as I am pensonally concerned, I am perfectly satisfied to go on without a counsel. Mr. Cmdg.^ — Have you any preference, Mr. Brockway, on that subject? Mr. Brockway. — No. Mr. Opaig.: — You understand the point. If the Attorney-General goes on representing both the complainants and the persons impli- cated in the charges^ one side as much as the other, even then private counsel may be present and present to him, as all per- sons are invited ttoi present to him, the names' of witmesses and inteoppogajtbries, but on that line of procedure private counsel could not take part in the examination and oross^examinatioin! of witnesses. On the other hand, the question is whether private connsel sihall be admitted to tialie part in the hearings and in the examinajtionis and orossi-ex'aminlatiO'nBi of witpietssesi. Now, wha:tever may be the conviction under which the committee has hitherto acted in that matter, and the conviction under which they invited the Attorney-Gener'al to represent all parties in interes*, the committee are prepared, as I think the Attoimey- Generai ils prepared, to concede the oppo'site course, if requested by the late superintendent, or the acting superintendent, or t!he maniagens. That is so, Judge CUbeirt, so far as you represent the Attorney-GefQeral? 108 Judge Gilberti. — Yes, eir; as I TiiMieiPstaii!d it tlte Attomey- Geneiral — his view is this: That if th.e nuanaigemeiit or tlie superintendent desire to be represented by counsel upon this hear- ing, they ^tould have an opportunity to be soi representled. Mr. (>aig. — One expression which I used there waisi impromptu and should be corrected. I should nob have said, perhapsi, "the late superintendent," beoaiuse the suspension or retirement volun- tarily by the sraperintendent, pending the investigation, would not designate him as "late superintendeniti." Perhaps' it is not important to sayj but I did not intend any implication beyond the fact, whatever it is, by that foocm of expression. I want to say that it is evident that the decision of this question of pro- ceduire rests with Mr. Brockway, and with the acting superin- tendent and with the managers. They must decide it for them- selves, but the decision, in accordance with ithe suggestion of the Attomey-Gemeral, should be made now, or within a reason- able- time, and before he enteira upon tRe examination of wit- nesses. Mr. Brockway. — Since I am on my feet, I will give you my final view about it, and that is that I am perfectly satisfied to go on without counsel. ' • Mr. Craig. — You understand, Dr. Wey, asi president of the board of managers^ that yOu are called upon •tio make yonr decision now, for the reason given by the Attomey-G«neral, which seems to be quite reasonable and satisfactory to the committee. We do not ask it this very moment, but before the Attorney- General enters upon the examination. Judge Gilbert. — Permit me to say this, that of course it would be impossible for counsel toi properly present the facts upon either side unless his attention was called to the witnesses. That is, unless the witnesses were produced for examination, and 'his attention was called to the particulajr facts which those wit nesses would probably testify to, and I should therefore expect that the 'witnesses which are produced for the purpose of sub- stantiating the charges would be presented or brought forward by someone, and that my attention would be called to the faicts which they would probably testify to, and I should also expect, on behalf of the managers and the superintendent thait they would produce for examination such witnessies as they believe would disprove the charges, and they would also call my attention to such facts as they claim the witnesses produced would testify to, and upon each side that such question might be suggested as vyould be proper to be put to the witnesses^ and that would be likely to call out the facts, because it would be impossible for me 109 to familiarize, myself so thoroughly with the entire case upoii both sides, the witnesses, the facts which, iiiej might testify to, and all, as to present- it properly to the committee. I would expect that Id reference to influences that may be at work about the commit- tee, I think that they will have no weight with anyone further than it is probable that parties interested in carrying forward this investigation wUl be active in productnig the proof. As I under- stand it, the management and Mr. Brockway wUl be before the committee with full opportunity to present their witnesses' and the facts^ they may expect to prove on their part. I hope no injusr tice will occur in conseqijgmce of any such opposition as 'tliat refeiTed to by the superiutendent. •^ Mr. Craig. — Of course, as has already been announced in the statement made at the formal opening, on either line of procedure, private counsel, and all persons, are invited to present the names of Tidtnesses and interrogatories, and the committee can make no distinftion. We can not go into the investigation of the conduct ' of any person outside of this investigation in order to mate any disiinction as to who shall present the proofe here, so long as the -conduct within the hearing of the committee and sessions held by the committee is proper. The committee desire to be prepared to make an unqualified and absolute statement to each convict within the walls of the reform- atoiy, and each convict on parole who may be called upon to testify here, either for or against the administration, to the effect tliat he vdll be protected in giving his evidence, l^ow, it ha^ occuiTed to the committee that some such provision as this would enable the committee to offer that guarantee to every such witness coming upon the stand, a resolution to be passed by the board of managers that no such witness should be punished on account of giving any testimony against the reformatory or the adminis- tratiou, or any of its officers, or tending in, that direction, and f urtiher, in order to carry out that general provision, fliat no such Tvitnesses should be subjected to any serious punisihment for any offense whaltever without the express vote of the board of mansgers. Dr. Wey. — In connection with hSs testimony. Mr. Craig. — Yes. On, those points we desire to receive sug- gestions from Mr. Brockway, and the acting superintendent, and the president of the board of managers. You see at once that the inlent and object of these suggestionis are, I want to protect the witnesses, and to give them the assurance of protection, so that their testimony shall be free and without fear. To Ulustrate, if their testimony sbould be in favor of the superintendent and man- a<'ement, it will have with the committee all the more weight, and lie oil the other hand, if their testitnony should be suppiressed on account of fear, then it would be with th.e loss of truth, which, is tlie final object of this investigation, I do not see, while the time in not occupied in responding to my invitation, any serious objec- tion to this, because it has often been advanced by those familiar with prison and reformatory discipline and management, that no sierious punidiment should be inflicted without the decisioin of a (Mips of ofSoers or manager®. Without expressing any opinion on that point for the present, there could be no serious loss or disad- vantage in applying such a rule provisionally, and to the limited nvunbei' of convicts who would be witnesses on the stand. Is that your view. Judge Gilbert"? Judge Gilbert. — I think some such assurance as you suggiefet ■■•hould be given to the witnesses on both sides. Mr. Craig. — Befbre th^ are called on to tesiiSfy? Judge Gilbert. — When caJled upon to testify, and befbre giving their evidence, I thSnk they ishould be entitled to tha* aaisurajnice. Mr. Qilajfe.— Fuartiher, thje coomnittee would mot u!n|d:eirfcaik© to give an assurance which they can not guarantee, and it as with reference to thait that these suggeisitioins ajre made as to the modus operandi, and we would be pleajsed to' hear from the president, nuamagem, aotiing supeirinitendjemt and Mr^ Bmockway. Mt. Brodkway. — The presMient asiks me to Tieistpomd. Without interposing 'an.y objection to the sdhiemie, for tihte sake of com- pleten'eiss in what I wislh to say, I remark, that I dapreoajte the sx)reading ui)otni the managers/' pipoceedings, the recoirids of tihe reformatory , an implicatloii of that kind upon the general super- intendent. I depnecate 'any utterance beCoire a company of prisKHieins, uulder a good government, unxier an[f government, the tone or tendency of which is to suggest to them that they aire iiepiressed fnam telling the truth, and if they will make statements against those over them, some good friends, from the oatside, will pome in and oaire foir them. Let me irefpeat, that I may not be miaundieMtiood., I make these two poatots, not asoibjectioins but as suggestions, and for completeniesB, as to what will tolow, what I think I have siaid. Now, I have a propositioai to m'ake to (the commi'siaion, which I think will coven tiilat and more too; it is that after your pensonal examination, of the retformatflTy, such pontioiDis of it as you have signified', you may possibly desliipe to vilsit this afteraioon, we asisemble this eviemimig the whx>le 1,400 amd more of the prisomers in om" leoture hall foi' a half hour pineviouis to the tegular school session. That there ehjall be pneBemlt the acting superintendent, the actuiai superintenident, who ils temporairily relieved from duty, the commiisisionens, thie stenoigrapher, and amiy managers who may be pjleased to atteinki, tha± ttueiie I shall hiave Ill an opportuiiHy to make ijo ihB Whiole home & atlaJtemetnitl, a puiblio declanatikjiii, -tihlali mo miam sihiall suffer loir alaytiiiiig lie mlay saj, aoid *hjat w) mian shall mlake asnjiMag Tby amytihimg hie shall say on the omitsiide, and whria I have finished what I have tb say, if the commisBion feel thMl I hajve not put it f aiirly, and desSre to m.'v anything moirie, th-ey aire at full Miherty to do it. Tha* theai we dilsitirihujte to these mem at the close of iMe school se^iom, which must he ahom* 9 o^oLadk tbi-mSghti, if we take a half homr before they go in, a gummed envelope aiddressedi to the chalrmam of this commission, comtainlrag ai half sheet of note paper oir sio, and that at the expiratiom of an hour they all be gathered np, sealed, and turned oyer to the commisisiom. We thusi get am expression from every prisomer in the house who is interested im it to wirite otut what he -wishes to say. How will that meet the case? Mr. Oraig.— - The committee will conisider that. Have you any- thing to say on that, Judge Gilbert? Judge Gilbert. — Nothing. Mr. Craig. — The -committee feel under obUgatiom to Mr. Brock- way for making the suggestit>m which he has made; they think it a very good plan to adopt, but they think it does not cover the whoile ground, and aire of the opinion thart both measures should be 'adopted. Of coturse we enter upon this investigatiom with the legal presuimption that, the management of the superintenid- ent hais been right;, that we are bound to do by all the analogies of legal procedmre, but that doles* not pireclude such! provisioms as may be deemed necesiSiary to get at the free and unbiased te'sti- momy of witnesses who may be called in support of the charges. The very reason of indulging thilsi legal presumptiom is a reason' for goimg to the bottom of the evidence and getting at the evidence of facts by a free and fearless testimony of witnesses. Now^ the adoption of the plan suggested by the committee would by noi means imply any personal belief on their panti that the superin- tendent would so far demean himself as to influence the testimony of witnesses or visit them with penalties for giving testimony. We disclaim any assumption of any such belief on our part, but we have to look on all sides of the question, and wMle we indulge the legal presumption that we have already stated, it is- our duty for that very reason to open all the avenues of evidence in a free and unobstructed course for the testimony before this committee. T think this committee would be satisfied with no other provision or without some provision similar to the one suggested, and having th(; same effect. So far from the suggestion of the superintendent that the course suggested by the committee reflects' on him per- sonally, a committee believing in Mr. Brockway would be quite as apt to suggest a course as one holding a contrary view of belief. 112 Mr. Brockway. — Mr. Cliairaian, permit me to say that I had no thought that the committee intended such an implication. ISie difficulty is that the moment we announce it the prisonere so imply. I rise to make that explanation. Mr. Craig. — We think it very natural you sihould feel sensitive about this, but let me say in reply to your last suggestion ttat it is not necessary at all to state to the prisoners the means by whicl'. the committee are enabled to make the assurance to tiem absolute that they will be protected in their tesitimony. Mr. Brockway. — That would be entirely satisfactory. Mr. Craig. — Of course, we did not contemplate telling them what resolution the board had passed. Mr. Brockway. — It was my understan,ding you desired that announcement to be made to the witnesses. Mr .Craig. — No; we desired to make the absolute announce- nieut they would be protected, and to that end we siugg^itedi cer- tain action by the board of managers. Dr. Wey. — The inference and language was that announcement should be made to the witnesses. ]\rr. Craig. — IS'o; the announcement should be made to them they would be protected, and to guarantee us in making that annoimcement we desired the action of the board of managers. Jiid}iT> Gilbert. — May I make a suggestion ? Mr. Craig. — That is what we want. Judge Grilbert. — I am iratheri under the impiresisioin thatt if Mr. Brockway's plan was carried out it miglht give the immaities 'an impression that this is an attajck upon a proper! syistem of dis- cipline to be carriied out in an iastitutioiD) of thSs' kinidi. It seems to me they sihould be impreslsieid with the idea that thjsi isi mot an effiort to initenfere witoh or break down a proper systtem of dis- cijfline. That they are to understand that they are to dbey thte ruiea that airle estabUslhed for the purpose of itniaintainling dis- cipltne in the' refownatonny. I think if that plan isi carried out it might give them a differeint impresiBion, amd I think we ought to %vp to prevent as fair 'ai^ we esax thteim getting that idea. Ab I understood this aissiuraracie was only to' be gveni to the wiltnelsB after being placed upon the stand. Mr. OraSg. — Yes; after being sworn amid ibefore! queisrtaoim aaiked him. Judge Grttbert — It is not to be startled to the oonjviots generally. Mr. Craig. — Oh, no. It is for the influienicie? upom the miind of the witness to free him from all fear or influemce of ainy kiiad. Dr. Wey. — Would not a suggeatiion ftom thie dhaalrmaa of the board to the witness at the time aausiwier every purpose; t!hat he is protected in his irighta in giving testamony? 113 Mr. OPaig.— I could not to a nuap whbi isi no* a friae majai, -whoi is subject to the will amd oonitirol of otihieirls, giYei ihiiim my albisloliite assua-arace ia goibdi faoitlh, wMhomt flnsiti ktoowing tihte gromaad® of such amuramce, you see, in the nature of the case. I might have a petnsomal Ibelief, but I havie no right tlo siay to lai pirilsloiiiein that "jv-ofu 'are aWsoliitieiy prioitlected," unlass I kmioiw thie mieianis of pro- tection. It rwoiuld be an act of badi faith ota my own paint, and I sttnonld nespiect hSa manhood laaid hiis (right to absoibite good faith on my part, jrasit aia much as if he were a fneie mia(ni iNow, it did stTike the committieiej somiecsv^hat in the li|^t priasented by the Attopnejy-Geinieral, niaameiy; thjat' the declanatiotni by the auper- iateUdemt to the inmiatesl lasis'emMeld iln chiapel might reflect on him a gneait! deal moooe than the coranse suggested by the com.- mattieie, and ilf in any eWeailii it should bfe carried out 'aftetn fuirtheir conMder'atiomi, it iig suiggesrtiedl by the comiinitltee that it ought to ble with the aiddiitfioin, what hasi been suggelsttled by the Attoiraiiey- Gietnlenal, some .sitatements mMe by the Attomey-G-eaieirlail on ithe conamittee to the effect thaJtl we airle not hene to interfere with the proper disciplime of the prasOiii. We aire here aisi State officeBH, in olbedienice to Htatutoiry duty, to maikie iniquiiniJesL How would it dta, if the superdntendietnt desdiileS to carlry out hisi plan of |he prognam, to puinstue that as ome of thie courisiast with thiisi additiioii, the sitatemletalt mlade in behalf of the Atfoimiey-GelnieiPal or the committee? Judge Gilbert. — Well, my idea is, of course, I have no experi- ence whatever in the mfinagement of an institution of this kind; 1 know nothing about it But it occurs to me that this investiga- tion shbuld not be spread out before the inmates of this reforma- toiy more than what is absolutely necessary in order to get at the tr-uth, and that no one should be made acquainted with our pro- ceedings here except such as are required, and it may be neceisi- saay for them to attend before your committee. fThe superiur tendent'a suggesition is that they all be permitted, in the form of a communication to this committee, to present their complaints. In one view that is a very proper thing to do, and yet, when we take into consideration the fact that here are about 1,400, ais I understand it, confined in this institution, that any a,ttempt at nevoilil mlilght be attended with very serious conisequeuicesi, and I think that proceeding should be conducted, if possible, ia a mianmeiri to avoid any such oocumrenc© asi that. Mr. Craig. Of course, it is no light thing to go within the. walls of a reformatory or priison and make an investigation. The committee understand that. Tker are somewhat familiar with the history of those thing's, and it has all to be attended with all piKudenttiai measiures, so far m they will not ihterfete with getitamg 15 114 at the 'ti'uth; that is the fli-st thing, and then so far as is con- sistent with procedure to get at the truth. "Die one pmne pur- pose should be to refrain from interfering with, the discipline of the prison. Th.e committee think the suggestion first made by tiie committee tshould be carried out, and that in addition, if Mr. Brockway is willing to malte the declaration whlcli he hasi sug- gested, attended with or wlthomt admonitions from the committee or the Attorney-General that we are not here to interfere with, the discipline of the prison, simply exercising om- statutory duty to make inquiries, we ^\ill be satisifled Avith that, too, and would be glad of it, but we do want some assurance such as was stuggested by the committee, and I would say further that the managers and the acting superintenden.t, Mr. lirockvvay, may "wish .some reason- able time to decide whether they will have private counsel to take part in the examination and cross-examination of witniesees. I suppose they can ha^e their counsel here in a short time. iAwait- ing that, we might make an, inspection of the reformatory, or par- tial inspection, and we may leave this question of the suggestion by Mr. Broclvway open for fui'thei' consideration and decision, but so far a'S the suggestion coming fi'om the comihittee asi to action by the board of mauagei's it would be well n.pw to have that decided, inasmuch as we should want some action before summo^nr ing witnesses and pending the hearing on the other questtion and decision of it. The board of managers might assemble here, all being present. Dr. Wey. — All but one. , Mr. Oraig. — Where is the other one ? Dr. Wey. — ^Ir. Peters is not here. Mr. Craig. — You could have him here. Dr. Wey. — T do not know whether he is in town or not. Mr. Craig..^ If it is a special meeting called without due notice it would be advisable to have all present. That would cure any defect in notice. ' Dr. Wey. — W^e may be able to communicate with him by tele- phone. I infer from the fact he is not present he is not in the city. A Gentleman. — He is in. Chicago. Dr. Wey. — Then he is not procurable. Mr. Craig. — Then I would snggesit a meeting of the mana,ge!rB who are present, pending a hearing on. the question of proioedure after the arrival of counsel for the managers find Mr. Brockway. Dr. Wey. — Let me aslc in regard to your hours of meetingi here. Mr. Oraig.— The committee desire to do all the work possible every day, and we are all busy men, and it is advisable for otlier considen-ationis, also, that these proceedings should not be unduly delayed. Of course we would wish to consult the convenience of 116 the Attorney-General and the priyate counsel to any reasonable extent. What hour of opening wonld you suggest, Judge Gilbert, in the morning ? i ' ■ Judge Gilbert. — You can't make it too early for me. Mr. Craig.— Say 9 o'clock, Dr. Wey ? Dr. Wey. — Yea, sir; that will suit. Mr. Oraig. — To-morrow morning. j>r. Wey. — Do I understand the res* of the day will be occu- pied witJi the inspection or will you have a session after dinner? Mr. Craig. — What is the opinion of Mr. Brockway as to the length of time required in the inspection ? Dr. Wey. — We would like to have your inspection very thorough and inspect and examine e^ery porfjion of the reformatory. Mr. Craig. — It undoubtedly will take the remainder of the day to maJce the inspection, and even then that may have to be fal- lowed by further inspections, and I would suggest that we would like to have the counsel of the managers' and of Mr. Brockway present in the morning to be heard on this question of procedure; T say to be heard, if he, representing them, elects to take part in the examination and cross-examination of witnesses. That is all there is to, it, and he will enter at once upon his duties. Dr. Wey. — ■ That matter we will decide in the interval. Mr. Craig. — W^e would like to have your counsel present if you have any, and I infer you have, because he has asked me about questions of procedure. In the meantime you will hare oppor- tunity to pass some snich resolutions as have been suggested and to procure and present here the plans of the building and the giwinds, and if you have any photographs of elevatSongi and interiors we would like those; anything that we can file for the purpose of contributing to proper descriptions. Dr. Wey. — They can be funnisihed. Mr. Craig. — In the morning ? Dr. Wey. — Yes, sir. Mi*- Craig. — Them^ if there is no objection, and no one wishes to be heard on that question, when we do take a recessi, we wiU take a recess until to-morrow morning at 9 o'clock, at thisi place. If there is any other matter to be considered before the recess iis taken we would lUie to have it considered now. .Judge Gilbert. — ^ Wouldn't it be well enough at this point to consider the manner of proceeding so far as the order in which proof will be called ? Mr. Craig. — Yes; all those considerations we had better enten- tain before we take a recess. Jud'g'e Gilbert. — I suggest that the pi-oof that is tO' be intro^ duced in support of the chao-ges be fii"st introduced, and when that 116 is closed, tlien that tke proof proposed to be introduced for the purpose of disproving the charges should be introduced. In that ^v■c^\ it will avoid confusion and it will present the majtter, it seeius to me, in a clearei* and better light thaoi though a, few wit- nesses be called in suppoi't of the charges and a few witnesise® called to disprove them, and so mingle the evidence all the waJ^ tlirough the investigation. Mir. Ciilaig. — Oh, yiesi; I itMQk the committtee would be very clear on ithiart podjnt. Of oouTisie it woraM niorti pineivient thle icommiltltiee ftpom miaking an oipder iai a paartitoular caisie to exajmine aj wittnless out of order if it was naceisisajry, but the gieraeiria)! proicieldiuirie ishjoiuld be, in case there' are two cwunsel, on© fon? the aiffinniainice, amd ojne ftw the denial of the offein|sie, -the case of the affifrtoDamice or coan- plainants shoiuld be flrsit miajde. .WOiuld yoiui miafce ai dMinictiiioii betweieu the conirlsie whein two oomii^ell rjelpirtasieinit thie respective sides ajnd the course proposed, you iPeprtelsieiiutiiing both sideisi? Judge Gilbeirt. — The diffeffletnicie is «njply ithiiisi; if the mamage- ment, the superiintieaidenit, lare not reprieisieiiitleldl by cooinisel, then thi's is in onie senise a M'ai; it is isamply an inyesitigaltiibm. Mir. Onaiijg. — -Inquiry. Judge GrUbeirib. — Inquiry; yes. If, on ithte oitheir hiajaid, cwunlslel repreaenit the m'amiaigemenit amd sfuparinrtietndieint, and couinisel repite- sent the people, then it at once assimiesi th'.a,na:ture of a ti%l and would piracieied, I pinesiume, isiubistamtially as tirfiLaJIis oocidtttaiarily pino- oeed in oomint'. Mr. Oraig. — SupposSlng the cooiijlsiel foir Mir. Bnockway and the authorities appears here to-morrow morning and says he is pleased to have the procedune as indicated, v?hen *he Aittoim'ey-Getaeml was invite(d to eomte initio thie prioceedliiig, viz., tlhat he should, aj>peair for tvm -sides, amd all panrtileisi; then! would you thiDk it better to exhausit th]e p|rtoO(f a for the aotoplainiainiti 'blelfbirie you take up ax(Y etvidenoe? t Judge GriiUbieirtt. — Perhaps not; in thaltl levemrti, I thatak, it' would be no miofre thab just' to Mr. Brockway to allow Mm, at the out- set, to come bteftfflia the cioanmittee, lawi staite what he daiSms' with ref enenice to 'the matttler. Mr. Qcaig. — We will deteromine it to-morrow moiming. I wi!sh to repeat the aujuonncement that it was made in the formal sitajte- ment in the opesning of the investSgatiWnj, thiat on thielsle oocasions of personal inistpectiloin by the committee, thef wUl ble accom- panied by the secnetary to the oommittele, by the isltenolgipapheir, to the oommiittee and, of ooursie, independetiltily by the Attiomey- Geneflai, aind any pniYaite counsel, but that other pecsotnBi wiU be exclu|died for the reaison that a large f oUowiing in thle close inspec- tion! which we meaiq| t^ miake would no/t, im aooordlajnce with in experience of the past in the investigation of prisons, interfere with, ittue dteciplinle of the prison. Onji} stemograjplhier' will take notes, aB dSictat^d by the cominittee, aisi, we pmoeied ia the kuspec^ tioinl of the prisoM. Are thletne any other suggesltionlsl to te mMe befoiTie we take a ireceHS nlmtlil toi-mKxrinow moijiiuig? Judge G-ilbert.. — I want to siuggest this, that there may be some records in connection with the management of the institu- tion which it will be necessary to examine, and if it did not take the entire time between thisi and eyening to examine the institTi- tion that then the committee ha^s'e an opportunity to examine those records. ^ Dr. Wey. — What records do you refer to specifically; the records are all open to you. Judge Grilbert. — That is all; I snggest that to the committee, not knowiD.g myself about the records. Mr. Craig. — I think the records should be presented at the pub- lic hearing, so long as we have our hearings public, and if we contemplate to hav^ them presiented and marked in evidence before to-morrow morning that ^Ye should adjonm, until some time this afternoon or evening, so that any one representing am^ party or wishing to be present among those who are entitled to be present at any hearing can be present at the production of the records. Judge G-ilbert. — The only object I had in view was this: I did not know but what there might be some records on the part of the management or superintendent that they desire tO' call the attention of the committee to or that there might be some records or memorandum connected with the management or those inter- ested in the prosecution might desire to call the attention of the oommittee tot, anid that we niigiht save some timie by dioiii|g th'at tMIs atttemooni. Mr. Oralg.- — You would suggest we take a recessi until 4 or 5 o'clock, instead of 9 o'clock to-morrow morning. We do not want to keep those present who wish to be present at a further hearing here on uncertainties. In my opinion, judging from experience, we will have more than we can do this afternoon to make the inspection. Judge Gilbert.— You know better about that, than I do. Would jou suggest, 'Mr. Brockway, if you were to make that declaration to the inmates, it shonld be this evening? Mr. Brockway. — Yes, sir. Your time will be occupied to^^day and this evening, with no opportunity for a session to continue your inveistigations. I was going to suggest to the chairman to mv mind the testimony divides itself into three grand divisions or classes of testimony; there is the testimony of the formulated 118 cliaxgesj there is th.e testmionj of persons not at the reformatory, the second class; then th.ere is ttie examination of witnessises who are prisOnens or olificers witfcin the reformatory at presient, and to ask, if possible, that you take up the latter diTision, the exami- nation of the prisonersi and officeire first, that we may geit rid of the embarrasisment, the progTess of the business and general management of the reforma!t|ory, more or less of which obtains, until we get rid of the embargo. I offer that as a sTiggestion. Mr. Craig. — That is to say, if you api)eaii' by counsel in the examination of witnesses^ and the aflanmative is to be flnst exhausted, we require the complainants to pijodnce su«h of the convicts or officers as they rely upon here in tlie first instance .before going elsewhere. Mr. Brockway. — Whatever testimony is to be had from inmates and officers engaged in the reformatoiy, I snggest it might be well to take up first. I suggest that will constitute the bulk of the time to be occupied in the investigation at the institution itself. Mr. Craig. — On either line of procedure you suggest that. Mr. Brockway. — On either line; yes; I am not particular about the line of procedure. Mr. Craig. — Then so far as the public hearing is concerned, unless some further suggestiton is to b€ made, recess will be taken to 9 o'clock to-morrow morning at this place, and it is so ordered. The committee then adjourned to Wednesday, September 27, 1893, 9 a. m. Wleldlnlelsday, Septemlbtein 27, 1893. Tlhje coanmittee mettl pnms/uialniti to adjommmenit. Pnesleni. — Hon. Oisiear Orafife amdl Dn Stejiihien SmitlL Mr. Qnaig. — The time now hiaa oomie to opiein the pinoceiedling'a Judge Gilbeiit. — Theme tojs beem plaoedi be&Hie nue a copy of thie Msloluition which was paaisied by (tihie boapA of miajniag'ensi in aoooridanoe with the suiggesitionis hlerie naiadiev I thStnik thjat oiugiht to go on our record. I wili ask the ppleBlideinIt of the board of mamjagiere if this rteBoiutioini, signed by Mlm, as pmeislMefiKt, isi a copy of the one adopted by the board yesiteffldlaiy? i Die. Wey. — An exact cojpy. Mir. Onaig. — And entered' on. thle mintuteB oif tihle bbaird? Dr. Wey. — It wiE be entened oni the n[iilmiteisi of the board. Mr. Oraig. — TIhe board wi&b to make no quaMficajtIion to thait? Dr* Wey. — If it iisi siartisfadtory toi thet committtee. Mr. Qrlailg. — It is sartiisf aotioiry to the commitlteeL It will, tihlene- f ore, be put in eivSdieiiicie hlere, and emtiared on tNe wecords of these pnooeieidiDgis. < ' Tlh:e folloiwimg is a dopy of itUe sarnie: "At a mie:ettjiig of the miajaiageirB of tihJe New Yoacik State Klefoirinia- toiry jhjeld Septembelr 26, 1893; pflelsielnttl WiM'aan G. Wey, M. H. Amolt, James B. Eiarttobone ia(ndi Benjaimia L. Swainfawolod; it -w&ts, on moitioini of Mir. SwajitwOod, " Biesoived, In vitew of itihe ikiveistlifeatlloiii noiw im pjroigressi at thje nefaftnaitioirlJ, of a comimliitltleie of tihie Sitaitie BoarS of Chairities, aad in ajoootrdiaaice wltlhi theiE requ'ast, nxj coirpotral or sievere pntniisih,- meottt f oiri amy offleooise sihiail be inflicted herieiafteip upoin aso^ inmyarte giTiug ttelstttLmioaiy beftaPe eiudh, coramitltlee, e|fflcapt after oooaferieace witlhi, amjd thje conicuTiretnce of thie maniagerB. "WM. 0. WEY, '"J-'resident." Mr.. Qnadig. — Tihje niext piodnit is with, inefeirteiuce to pprilvate, ooiumiael. I have beien adyised tlliat hag beem seititled by the boiaird of mamaigiers, biut we slhloiuld be officially 'adviisled, aiod it iShOiuid be enteined on tihie reteoirdi of tlhielsie proceeidinjgis, wihieitiher oir no the board of mamagieti'iS wiU have private doranBiel to tafce paaA im the exaimlniartliloaii, and croisis-examiniaitSoini of iwitpesisieisi. DnB. Wl^. — MJr. Ohiaiiimian:, the bbatrd do not desire the pneBenice of icoiunisiel for the isiake of taldng pairt in tnaversing tMsl miattler, buit we diesdire onir oouMsiel tb be prieSieoot to isragaest to Judge Gmbert Such qujeistiiotns to be put to witnesisies as miay be deepned beist foir the inteooesitsi of the pefoirimatoiry. Mr. Gnaig. — Thialt waia ootnteiiiplajtjeidi iim 'any evenit, in any cooKlsie of ppocedtulrle, as I umdietnstaind it Dr. Wey. — To mieelt thiat dietmiand o>r nieoeislsSlty Mir. Stanchaeld, ■fttiio is present, irepffleisenta usi in that oapiaeiiity. 'Mir. Oraig. — Mr. Stamchlfieild' itei notified to be pineisient, by the inveistigating commiltttiee, ainjd we haorie conteniplatedl fWoni Ithe begdinnihg if the Attoonaey-G-eneml should pnesient the evidieDQice on both 'Sides, auid, 'as we sajy, one isidle ais much as the other, that 'he would need the suggestiooois of prsouisi familiair wilth the claims of the respeotiVie isiidlels as tlo names of wittneisBies amd iutearoiglattoirieK. Mr. Stamidhfleld. — I think we 'willl have noi difficul'ty in^ gettitog alomg. Mr. Onaig. — It is settlefl then m far asi the fonm'ai hearing is coniceamied, amd the esiaminialtioin amid crosBi-exanmi'ationi of witnesises, the Attoimey-Geinienal will conduct .the pro'ceediogs alonie amid witho'ut othelr counisiel. SonuethlDng was' said, Judge ailbent, iabout putting in the Irtelrtwdls ithe &mt .thing tihte morning. Judge Gilbert — I would aisk whether the committee proposes to clomplete an examination of the inistitultion at tihiis hearinig, and if so, w!hjeit!hie(p they would oompilJeitie it befioipe initjriodiucing any piroof or laftem tHne recotiids aine imtrioduoeii Mr. Oralg. — ■ I would sniggesb tihait tlhie fuintihier tnis|piectaoiii of the instiltotiota nuLghlt be riesierweid flor oddi hioajirs whlai^ tlheirie is am iatettruiptiiloiii: of tihe pinoiceed!Lii:gia aisi aftea oocuips iml pfnoiceedtngs otf this kmid, so we cam, miake tttue mosit of our timie, amid thialt we slhoiuld call in now Major Hoippe, wihia haJs charge 0f the record®, ^amd have them pawved amd nijajrik.ed, amid' tlhem put in evidence, the letters thajt I hlave ipeoeiveid, amd han^e them put in charge of the seoretajry to the committee. Is th'at agjueealble? Judge Gilbert. — I think islo; I thiuik ilti wouiid be ppjpar for aomueonei, om behalf of thiose whio are ilnitariesltedi in suistainiing the ohjajnges^ amd those inlfeidestied in diispioivimig them, tO' siuggest what ineoords they desdine to have introdiuioedi, amd: that such records be inttt>duced, amd also stach neaords laa the committee may think it is proper to introduoe. I am unaJoquaiiDtted with the reoondla of the institiution:, I do not know juisit whiajt they are, amd, thleirefoTie, I shall be dependent aknoisit enttirely upon ,the suggesttiloiijjs majdie by those who aire acquainted with themi 'amd know what shiould be iatroduced. Dr. Wey. — It may be proper to say there is ;iot amything in comneotion witli the institution not open to the inspection of this committee. The records, biographical records, and records of conduct, labor and study, and in all respects, are very full and complete, and they are entirely at j'our disposial. IVIr. Craig. — Major Hoppe has charge of the records? Mr. Brockway. — He has been using them to get at some faicta. Mr. Craig. — Who has charge of them ? Mr. Brockway. — There are fortj' or more books, very large ones, a dray load. If somebody could go and see them and mark them. ^ Mr. Craig. — What ai'e the books now in daUy use in the office of the iastitutflon? Mr. Brockway. — Some of them are in daily use. Mr. Craig. — WTiat are booksi now in daily use? Mi". Brockway.— A conduct register, a book when it is ojyened, twenty-eight inches by two feet, a big, heavy book, six or eight of them, and twelve or fifteen bibgraiphical registers, about four inches thick, the same size. They are for daily reference. A large number of those books have been filled full and are filed away, to which we haA'p had to refer in getting up these facts. They can be examined and marked up there perhajys. Mr. Craig.— How far back do these books that you refer to go? How many years back? Mr. Brockway. — Seventeen years. 321 Mr. Craig. — Say tke last ten years, how many, condnot registers? Mr. Brockway. — Probably two dozen. Mr. Craig. — How many tike last year? Oscar Hoppe. — We have six in daily use now, for the present number of inmates, each containing about 200 accoimts. Mr. Craig.— Suppose Major Hoppe brings in one volume of each class so we may have a general idea of the books. Judge Gilbert — We offer in proof the regieteiis of 'the inslti- tution known as the biogTaphical registers, or so much of them as either party or iside may desire to call the attention of' the committee to, or so much of them as tlxe committee may deem proper to be placed upon the records. I now oJBfer in evidence the ledgers known and designated as conduct ledgers, or so much of them as either party or side may desire to introduce in evidence, or sio mnich of them as tihe conamittefe! may deem proper to be plajced in evidence oiri intiroiduced in evidienicie. Also offer in eviidelnioe ithtei reciords kniown laisi the " Becoird of Meaii in B«(oms," or so muidh of thoise as eithetr painiiy may dieeare ito iinltiraduice iu proof or so much of them, aisi the comm.i)ttee nuay desire to initrolduce in. proof. OslcaiT Hoppe, bieing duly isiw^otrai, teiHfifted: ExiamiUnled by Judigie Gilbe(i^t: Q. Aine you conneobed with the New York Statbe Refomniaitary at Ehniira? A. I am. Q. How long have you been ooumeoted with it? A. Eleven years. Q. In what oafp'aoity? A. Cleriioal cajpiacity lof diffieremt kinda Q. In what ciapaciity as a delrlk idid yiou fi^rst aeirive? A. derk in, . ohairgie of the guiard-room offl'oe, itih'e offiiae in which tbiesie reooirds awe kept Q. How long di|d you conJtiniue dni that poaitiian? A. Twio, three or four yeaff^. Q. Aifter tihait, in what capacity did you serve? A. Then I was em,ployieid more or less about the offices here; the buslilneias offices; and had general cleirioai duitd'es conuiecifceld with the vajrious miain- tematnioe departmjetnJts, not neoesaairily restriotdlng my seirvices to the guajridrcoom office. Q. You laire f amdliar, with the vaTiouis reoords that aire kept in the inisltittution? A. Thorougihly. Q. Describe partioulairly lasi you' cam the recoirld kmlown as the Miolgraphlicial register? A. The 'biographical reoond is a. copy of aiU the iinf oramation! that the supesintendient gathetns from his fliBrt) interview with the p(mis|o!n|eir, covering the Mistoiry of the prisomer 16 122 Ijefoirie ootming helite, as fair 'ais it can 1* laiscelrtialiiiled' from Mm; covenfcng tlie history of ihSis parentis; getting some accoumitl of Ms pthysiioal conditioiii; Ms memtal oooQdJittLoin!; iMa aeoMtiveiijesis, siemisi- bili'tiy; and aketcMng out some plan of tneatimieinft for the prisionjer dtHfcQig Ms stay at tihie nefotnmaitK^i^; on tIMs 'bdtofgrajplMcal recordi is also ein/teried, from ttoie to isme, the chlaniges in gnade tihlat ooours to ithie prisoner; the progiiesH ota laick of prioigireisisi "While here; his pajpaTe, land any infoomiaition thiat can "be aaoertainied abiout Mm, after he leaves the insittitraittlon. Q. Is that aU? A. Thiait ist all. Q. How many of these negisteoclsi have! you? A. About iten^ Q. The|y commiemce at Na 1? A. Yea Q. And contimxed up to the (hiLgiheisit numbeai? A. To the presient oonisecutive number. Q. What is that? A. It isi albbuit 6,000. . Q. (Mr. Craig) Yon mean conisiecutiTe numlber of tihe inmaitesi? A. Yes. Q. Is there anything upon thait necord indii'oartiilnig the metihiod of discipline that ia adopted with iriefelpencie iix» inmialte®? A. There is Bjoit in this (record. Q. What are the eontenta, geaenally, of tte reooird kniown as tihe Comjduct Ledger? A. Thie Oonlduict Ledger cotataiinisi lan accounifc with each iomatle, e(hoiwiD|g, for eajcih miajn^ a mionthiy summatty of Ms reoclrld in labo(r, in school amd ia demeanoir; this molDithly summairy is f urthetr, explatnied in the Oonidtict Ledger, by indkaatLog the principal offenses for wMch losses that are niairked in this ledger aire iaouiTied; 'aisiide from, thie mjonitMy summary the ledgier also conitains any grade changes wMch may have taken place, proanotiolns or nedTicttionls, or even pamotlei ftom the inlsititu- tion or transfer to some ortflneir institutikwi. On this ledger aire recoa;|ded, from diay to diajy, as itlhie isnpeirnntendienlt coammunicates with the priisonerSi, 'any reprooifisi, and the date! thlereof , any admoni- tionia, warnings oa* spankings that have iaaken pilaoe in the baith- room. Of liate nearly in every instance, by of late, I mean perihiaps six yelars back, aside from the fact of hliis Hpajnjkinjg, there is recorded in tMs regisfce(r in letteffls the number lof Mows that have been inflicted lat each partiiiculiajr spankinlg. Q. What would the letter A designate? A. The leitter A wouM indicialte one, the letter B twoi, and so on. Q. Win you sitaite the number of lettteps sliowni by thesie irlegisttielPs thJait were usied? A. The lettersi used aire; from A to. L; you will find, in a few 'instanices, where L has been exceedied; asi far as I can .remember from having gone thjrbtugh these irecordls, I doni't think ilt wiU be 'ainy more thani half a doaenl instanceis. Q. L indicates what? A. L indLcaifceis twelve. 128 Q. Aa yoiu fieloolteot it; wtot m 'tiie Mghmt niuinlbleir itfat thieBe regisibeins would mda'ciate or s!how tIJie blows used? A. T!h,e Mglieisit mumibei' w LL; wMch. meaas L plius L. Q. WluaJti is ibhe greaitasit nuuibeiii of blows emlbraoed or covered ^y L plus L? A. L plus L is twenty-fomr. Q. Tlhie apegilsiteiris do mot show any aaae lori imteltlajiice wilieirie blbws im exceefe of twenity-foiur were used or given!? A. The record stiowB every spanking that has been inflicted, and if there were move blows than L plus L it would appear on the record; as far as I have seen the records L plus, L is the largest number that I have obiserved. Q. Are there any other records which you have in the institu- tion ishowing the punisihments inflicted or the number of blows which you refer to? A. The record made on this conduct ledger is a copy of the memorandum taken by the supenntemdent in the bath-room at the time of the spanking, and written there on the original report of the prisoner; from that the entry is transferred to this ledger, and the original reports in all instances aire in existence. Q. You don't claim to know of your own knowledge -that this register contaiDS a full and complete record of all the blows given upon the occasions of theste spankings? A. No; I have never been jffeseut at a spanking. Q. Does the record shoiw any other kind of punishment, that is^ corporal puniishment, than that inflicted on those occasions which you designate as spankings? A. There is no other kind of punish- ment employed at the reformatory to my knowledge. Q. I am requested by the chairman to ask you if these records show anything witb. reference to the methods which were resorted to, or which were used in connection with these spankings, for the pui-pose of compelling the person punished to submit to the punishment? A. There is no record of that; but I ^ve found in examining these records for this occasion.; I have found in one or two instances it is stated that a man reflised to leave his cell was talven out by force, the method of what was meant by force is not stated in the record. Q. Nor you haven't knowledge, thiit is, peisonal knowledge, of the character of force used? A. Yes, I have. Q. You may statie that? A. I know that at one time, I think it was in 1883 or 1884, the only case that I have seen, a prisonei' who had banicuded himself in his room and brought in fr-om the workshop in which he was employed a large Imife, dangerous knife, which he refused to deliver to the keepers in charge, was tiiken out witli irons; the bent iron gas pipe; I think somlethtng of that desci'iption, with which he was drawn from the comer in 124 the cell in which he had concealed himself, to the door amd hand- cuffed to the door and taken out. Q. Aji iron pipe? A. Yea Q. Was that pipe heartBd? A. I have beeini told it wias; but' I haven't seen it myself. Q. (Mr. Craig). Waisi it ned tot? A. No; it waJSi blaick whem I saw it. Q. In what clasis o( cells was the prisoner at that time? A. It was near the foot of tftue sitairs^ a* tihe dioor lieadiinig. near itte guamd-iiooim office into the yaird. ; Q. Use the desciriptiTe tertm? A. It wias om the lotwieisit tier of the south block; either cell No. 602 to 605; it wais a regular cell, occupied by am inmata Q. It was not in the cell oalled or fctnown ais slditary? A. It was not. Q. One of the regniliair ceUisi? A. Itegxilain cell. Q. I am requested ailso to ask if ithene is anjyitliliiig in the recoird indicarta)ng injuries rdsultHiig from a corppnal pmnlisihimeint? A. The'tle is no injury even recorded. By Mr. Onaig: Q. Is ihere amy reciord of amy le^xamiliniajtliion. dhiawitojg am^ esami- inatioii to aisicertaim what ithef injuiry; tlhie effeiet of corptoTal pumMi- ment by paddling? A. I have neveir kmoww of a eaise of injury that has occuffined or that hlas resulted from amy isipiamking at tbic refioiraniatory; the onl^ iriecords of examinlartiom of priisonensi by the physiciam, which are in here, are examinatlomisi made on the adtaSsisiioin of the priisoooeir; if the prisionier claimia that he isi mot iu good health, he is at once turned oven to the phyisi'dalg for examinajtSOn, amd Ms report is entered ora the plage of the biographical record. , Q. Is there amy reoond or meonioirialnd'um shiowinig any examima- tiom mjade to asteertlain whether there is amy inijury, or whait is the 'effect of corporal punishimenit by spanking? A. Thjeme isi no reooad in these books. i Q. Is there amywhere? A. Not in amy book that I know of; it is possible the physi'ciaffii mlay have siomething in the Ihtoeipital register; I do not know abomt thatb. By Ju<^ Grilbert': Q. Is there anythin|g in this ciecord or ed'ther of the reoordls whjidi we h)ave mow introduced, inidioartdng the number of visitsi or the attienltlitom given by the pfcysSlcianl? A. The visortlsi of the phyisician are mot recorded in these booksi 126 By Mr. Craig: Q. Is tlhteipe a book in wMtihi they arte recordieid? A. In oiider to aoQiswep tHnat I would' have to isoniieiwhiat dlesionibe hoiw the physiclian exercises his duties at the reformatory. All meiui who ane 'sick oir (feel that theji- arei stek haivfe thel ptHvileige to' remaimin their ce'ir insitead of going tQi-e niunaben of mem oaJied tt> the baitlh-rioom eveiry day, only a very few received corpoinal piiitnilslhlmieltit; bmt the ladimionisihmeaiits atne administered in the bath-room by the siuperin- temdemit; the initeimiew held with these men for discipline takes plajce in this bialtlnrioom Q. TMa Tiecord sihbwis mot only the casiesl whierei immates! hiave receaTied ooirporal punislhment; but also iJnstamictes in wMcih they are required to appieam in the bath-room, no maitlten fbtp whJait pur- pOlsle? A. I think I can answer that with yeis; tihiere may be a siiglit leKceptaou' oiocaJsiomally. By Mr. Craig: Q. I understand you say that for thfe present and for some time pa's* there have been no coi-poral punishments except by spanking, as youi undetnstauid, is thelne amy column ori ^spiaioe in the rieaord for the en.tiry of any corporal punishments other than those of spank- ing? A. The corporal punishment is indicated in these ledgers by the term No. 4; Noi. 4 signifies the room in, which these trams- aictions took place. Q. This bath-room? A. Yes, sir; bath-room years ago was kno-wTi as No. 4 and has retained that name. Q. Whenever we find No. 4 in this book it indicates there was tt'ieatment in this bath-room? A. In, this bath-room. Q. You say all treatment in this bath-room is not necessarily spanking? A. Yes, sir. Q. How is it indicated on the record whether it is is spanldng or ot|ier treatment? A. No. 4, always indicates spanldng; any other treatment, admonishment or reproof is written out on thJe ledger admonished such and such a day. Q. Has there ever been a time in this institution when there ha« been corporal puniishaient by confinement in dark cells, or dungeons, or solitary cells, or screen cells? A. I vdsh to oor ect now what I, have said before; T did not think by the term "cor- poi'al punishment" you included confinement in the rest cure cells or in any cells; I wish to add therefor that any confinement in our seclusion cells or in the rest cure cells' is entered on the ledgena as well as in this record of men in rooms; in each instance the itten in rooms wiU show the exact number of days any man. has beien undleir tneatment in' resit cure or seduMoini oir in the reiceptliion room. i' 138 Q. So that tihe entry of both, paddling and seclusions in cells are upon t^vo books? A. The* paddling or spanking rather, as we t^}, is upon this convict ledger. Q. Will you describe the different sei'ies of celk in which, seclu- sion has been practised? A. Under seclusion we understand the eilglhrtl threie coomier cells tJnat are located in; the new .sioiuth wing extension; they are three corner iron cellti. Q. Now describe the other cells? A. The reception rooms are thi*ee cells of the ordinar)- size; I can"t give the siize in feet; hn-ated in a separate room in the same south wing extension; the s;aue pa\ilion in ^^■hich the hospital is located. Q. Those cells, I understand, are used for convicts who conle at night? A. They are used for various purposes. Q. They are used for thiait? A. Foir thiat. (I. Viliixt else ai'e they u'sed for? A. They are used for tem- porary lock-up for a prisoner whom it is neceasairy to remoive 'temporairily fnom comtaict with other prisomlens. (i. Ave they used for punisihmienitj? A. IMey are not used. Q. T'sed for detention? A. Yeis. Q. Very much in the relation to the punishment cell that a jail \^'ould be ito a, prison? A. Exactly. Q. Defiicrabe thie oibher oells? A. The ntemaininig cells aire ail the same exoept they differ itai size somewhJait; im our moirth wi'nig we have the cells which, when the insititutioe was built ori^iniaiUy, wene kept for first graide men; aire isomewhkt laaigier; 'all lihe other oeUs aire aJbout unifoirm in slize; that is, lail, with tihe exception of tihosie Tiegular ceUs in the soultih block. Q. The south block is 'ajt right amgleis to the isloiuith wing? A. Yes; the "rest cuTe" cells, A\'hich are regular cells equiiipped as the oirdinary isteicond- grade men cellsi, apid iBl wMchJ prisioneinsi 'aire detJained fora such time as is neaessary in the different 'CiaBies. Q. TMiat ife the longest caSe of deteuitdioini entered uipon the books so far ais you reoolleot? A. I think thirty or fontjy dayis a man hag speuit in tflnelse cells. Q. Hoiw majny isuoh caises? A. N-ot mlaay. Q. Appirgximatiely? A. Perhajpsi half a dozen oir mioiie; I miay not have iseem them all. Q. Hoiw many olf twenty days would yo.u recall? A. I can't aniswei" thalt question, because I haven't gone through the books. Q. Furthed describe the cell; each of those cells hasi what we wiould 'call a screen door? A. No, sir,; only two of the' cells on this " rest cure " gaUletry has a sorieen door ; the sicreen door is a door ■n-hich conisiists of a fine wire netting ; fine enotugh that no article can 'be piaisisied into the cell bjr any pTfiisoraers who may cieajii atiid paeB tliieire. 129 Q. Not oibetruiotdmg the ligM? A. Not obBltructtng- tihe liglub. Q. Thjere is in addiltdjon tb tihleiste! screetal doOra solid dOors? A. Ttoene ia a wooideai' door. Q. Wliilclh, would oibisttaiot the light ? A. Whidh "wtould, if cloisieid, olbisitipuict tlhie Mglhti. Q. Bwve ycni examiitneid lall the cells in, wihich prfsomeirs are puindlslhied oiti 'seckudleid'? A. I have examined aJl tlhie eels; I desaxie to ladld,, hiorwever, ijn oaideir not to be misiuinldemtood, itihlatl when I Bitated mien have 'beeul twenty and tMrty dajya in " neistt cnra," I , 4a niortJ mean in the isiorieein oeillis tou.t in the reguilar open oellfeL ,Q. Without darkening of the cell? A. Without darkening. Q. Without soreen door? A. Without screen door. Q. The ordinary door of tjie ordinajry cell? A. Ordinary door of the ordinary cell. ' Q. With what rations? A. With regular rations); two rations a day oiccasdonaEy; occaisiomiaUy with bread and waiter for a short length of time. Q. Hare you examined all the cells? A. I have examined aU the cells. j 'i Q. I want to show what entries on those books, either the books showing the men in rooms or the conduct books, designate the paipticular cells in which convicts are puniished or secluded? A. The number of the ceU. Q. Tlje nimiber of the cell is entered? A. Yes, sir. Q. The num.betps «f the oeMH in the reflotomiaitoiry "tihefni are in' con- secutive order? A. Not in consecutive order; in order to facilitate the numbering of the cells each tier commences with a round number. Q. It gives not only the number but the tier, the entry? A. The cell suggests the tier; the corner cell on the lowest tier may be 101, and the correlsponding cell on the next tier wUl be 201 and the third tieir 301. ' i Q. Does it designate the wing or block? A. The numiber itself deeignaAes the wing; there is only one cell of each number. ■By Judge Gilbert: , Q. How are the solitary cells designated? A. Seclusion. Q. When prisaners have been confined in tlbe seclusion ceUs have you ever known any of them to be chained? A. 1 have never seen them chained. Q. Are there any appurtenances or anything connectled with the cell by which a prisoner could be chained? A. There is in the seclusion cell. Q. That is in the eight cells? A., In the eight seclusion cells; an iron bar fastened to the wall on an incline way on which a 17 130 ring slides, to \\'Mch I'ing aD,d to avMcIi bar the prisoner may be handcuffed; one hand so that he can do himself no injury while being under treatment. Q. Tlie^ seclusion cells are three, corneir cell)s? A. rHifreel corner cells. Q. In which prisoD.ers are confined that aire regarded as dangerous with reference to injuring others or with reference to injuring themselves? A. Yes, sir; the three corner cellsi weire constructed after a sad experience here in a four corner cell; in attemipting to remove a prison.er our principal keeper was killed 1)T him, and the three comer cells wei'e built to prevent a reoccur- rence of this and to enable the keeper to see any pant of the room in which the pri^ner is. Q. In those oeUistiherieiisawater-clioBieti? A. A bucket; the same la® in the other cells; they are supplied witlh a bedu Q. This iron bair thiaifc you refer to rums to thle floior at one end and then gradnally risies as it lapproiaidhes the other Mie o* comer of "the cell? A. Yels; I oan't teM yon exiactljy; I have meven? &snm- injeid it closely to tell yoni whether it truntei tc* the fliaon or not. ■Mr. Qraig. — I aisfceid hilm about tihe ciellsi sOi asi to make him understand what tihe entiriteis would be in irleferenicie toi tihe ceiUia. Q. In reference to tlhefiie cellsi; whiarti aire thie dlooinsi; tihe c'hiairaiciber of the dooiris; tihe aolitiairy cellsi? A. The dloions aire open doors^ miade of iron, tihe same ais tihe othiefl cell dloloirls in usie- iw tihe inisltitutiom. Q. How are they arranged with rafeneinice to tihe Mlgbit; cam tihe light be obstiruoted:? A. Not from, the oeUs tiherie is niotlMmg; there is no other door with which tihe opendimg into tihe ceU oauld be covered so the ligiht could be 'shjuit onti from tihe cell. ' Q. Is thiene any means by wfhich tihe light cianf be excluded from this part of the prison? A. Not that I know of. Q. Do you know of any cells blelow tihe tiier 'of oelisi called or known as slolitaiies? A. There are nioi cells below. Q. There aire no cells or placesi in tihe insMtutiiton where persons or inmaties oami be confined below tihe tier of the cetUisi that you have iiief erred to and desiigiiated a;s saMitairy cells? A. There are not. Q. Whajt caia you ^' with reference tio thesle ceHs,! tihas lower tiea- of cells being lower or about even witih the grade or tihe gHounid outside of tihe reformiajtioiiy? A. They aire even wirtlh the gilound outside, as even ais all tihe otiher celte. ' Q. And the floors? A. The floonsi are level. Q. And laid upon tihe gnotunid? A. Laid tipon tihe ground; tihlere is no ceUajT undemeatih. Q. Is there anything in tiMS recoffd! indicatiulg tihe manner or the poisition in which the inmaite ilsl pjaiced or tihe poisitiiiolQ which. 131 he is riequired to tabe wMe beSiiig apankod? A. There ob nott; I iausiwietped tJi'ait. Q. Is there amy tha^gitntlhie record sUowimg tha* InmMes have been htog ap, as it is teraoad, 'by thb wriistta m*. tJbluiafte om im amy other -way? A. Thene has been: «> hanging Tip of thiait kind bem dpoie edlnioe I have bleeta oonniected with thje refomiarttory. Q. (Mm. OnaigD. You doiift speaik fnom fenowiedgei, I siuippoee; you mielanl tlo say you have not been- inforttpedl? A. I hame not beien infoameid ; never heaid' oi it. Q. (Mr. CJnaig). Thie questtion is, is tiheirie aji^ entry? A. Thtere is no entry; tbeire may be an entiy if suidh puniahlmieiit has beien iaflioted yeans before J -wals oonneoted with the inefoirmaitoTy; aiD) entry of such punfehment may appeiar on the necotPdisi, but I haven't Seen it. Q. (Mr. Onaaigi). It may be 'Old wooiidisi? A. It may be old weooindlsi. Q. Have you nefeinriedi to uldn't that be obviated ini tlhis wiay — Mr. Brockway. — They were gatlheired by tvrantty men, pnoibajbly, iiimaJtes, and put into these boxes. Judge GUbert. — Suppose Mr. lir-ookaway concedee those are communications from the inmates. Mr. Craig. — That might not be legal proof if they are all in his favor, admissions in his own, favor. Judge Gilbert. — I don't know why each side ought not to be willing to take that concession. Mr. Eatlibone. — They are all sealed. Mr. Brockway. — I vrill concede these' aa« communication from prisoners. ,1 Mr. Oraig. — I was spealving of the form of proof by concession, not whether it would be sartisfaiotoiiy. If it wias in proper form it worald be sartaslfaictoiy. Mr. Stanohfleld. — It would be binding upon us. Mr. Onaig. — Where it is in yoiur favor i)t mighit not be binding upon th.e otlier side. Mr. Stanchfield. — ^We wouldn't waint to be bounid by the con- oelslsioln of the facts stated. There is no .trorable i!n our making the coincessdom that thtee aire the letters tbatl weme handed in. Probaibly wie ooulidin't' maike the pirioioif in any otherl way. Mr. Ctoaig. — If there is no otbgectiom they will be received, as thie letteH Juidge Gilbert. — I undtensltand the oitheir .side woultd priefen to have mme proof of the fact that they are the communioabionsi. Mi^. Onaig. — That is proper ilf they wish. Mp. Biaithbone. — There were ten or flfteeni men that gatherai "tiheim. Mr, Bnoickway. — Mr. Wooley, who received them, wiU be able to tell, I think. Mr. Craiilg. There are presented heite transicripts or condensed sitattemjenrta from the books inj evidence, relafcltng to. oases in tihe 136 aillegattiKnis on file; wiltlh: tlie stjartietmenit in eaciu caisle, are originial entmies frooi -wiMdh. thie reoondfei have 'been) maide, aW. also cor- responidence of prliSoaeria on pairole 'and ottJiem oirtlginiail' paperts. K these were to be used only ait (lieafrimgs "witMin .tihe waJls of tihe ipefoomaltory, they couldl be idanilMed ass msfed, but it iS' altoigethjer piPObaMe theff would be taken friom ome place to. anioitiher, including some, if not all the Sta/te prdsons, because the books* cam not be caMed aboiujt; anid if idientifleid ait aU they will hare to be idemitifled here; it will be rajthier of a; slow pnocess to idemtify all these copies; I tthink it would have to be done, unless Mr. Hoppe aoooonpanaes the commiiasiomi to the differerat places of hearingsi, aoud ideintifles the paipetrs as they ajre toi be used there. Judge GHbeiit. — Let me suggest this; as I undesrslbaind it, Mir. Hopipe hais prepairad an estinact from tihe recoirdl reJiarting tb all lihieise different caisies, and that efitraxrt; will contain^ probably, or does conltain the faicte irelatiug to the pundlshmenttei inflicted ilni these vaiiiioius oaees. If tihe secretaiy of the colmimititee oouid have thart; extract he could aompaire it with the recotrd wihich ihe hais, or the chairges which aa'e filed with your board. Mr. Craig. — That 'has been agreed upom Judge Griiber*t. — Then upon that ©xaimalnjattiloin, where he fluids thalt th^ facts set forth in the abstracit, correspotajd with the fiaots or coanoiborate, the charges corataioed or filedl in your depaint- mlent, it would be unnieoaasairy to initroidiuoe orthan proof than' the statement itlself, anid ini those casesi where the extract differs or dloes mot coiprespoaiid or coairoboirajte the cjhjapgeisi filed', themj, in thosle cases, when wie comje back here tihe oirnginiab papers could be esaimiLned, if neceaslalry. Mr,. Craig. — In any case if jar" ahargea are ^trme; an I imdeirstand it, the iavestiga- tio)a is as to whether oir mot the emtire mamagement of this iustituitlom so fan? as disicipliae, etc., is coniGeirmedi isi correct. It i® olatimed tiheire laiie vieiry mamy ifijsitanoeis where it would be nece& sajry to esamiiiae the recoirdis, amd get from them the f actsi relaiting to different inmiatesi that are mot refenred to in the cihargesL Mr. Stamiohfleld. — Tbat would be a Tiolatiora of precedent. You let Mn. Wlhite isiu,ggest to you the niame of lamiy single caise he wajDfts, lamid wie will furnish a certified copy lof the complete record. Any niame mot colntained in the dharges, ailthough ome oiidinariily prepares a case om the dhairgeia ais ipiresented. If Mr. Pamning f would sitay here we woml|d be eminenltly sfetisiflied, or the istemo- girialpher would stay; we would take amybody who is coMU'ected or laHied to you. Mr. Oraig. — Bo far as the wriitteim dhlarges 'aire ciomcermed, the aMegatioms that have been flleid, we have certified triamsaript of the reooirdsi, which is mow offered here, lelatinig to every case, could be isoom veriaed Istj am agenit of the commitittee in comparing the ibramisorilpt with the book, amd the transiciript could be takem by the commiittee. So far as the suggestioto comes from the com- plainiants to the Attorney-G>emeBal, given by 'hfilm, that it is /desineid to look intoi the necbmte' to see if there, are cases not 'aJleged, those tram^ciriipts wouldn't amswer the purpose. Of oourse, this investigation is not comiflmed to the paMiioultair cajses, afllegiatdoms of which are ffled. That is under the statute, lamJd it is (broader, but I think that while I know of no reasom why Mr. WMtie would not be a^ good a person as aajjy o(ne else to make those tnamaciripts oir memoirandum, that the conmnittee -should be 140 govemed Somewhiait by fhe saggeiBbkmB coming fitHn tilie manageirs aa to tJie appointtmient of a perarai wliw has ii'Oiti 'been co|ninie0ted witihi eitlhiei' side. MiT. Steinicihflelid- — Tiliiait is 'aB. we ask foi^. Mr. Gradg. — Wliat woiuld yoiu say kx refenemce to tbait? Judlge G-ilbent — • I am hiai-dly in a positdjon ito siay atnythamg in refenemlce itio i* ftw tine reasK^ tlhiaJt I am ^ ' Judge Gilbert. — Tihese pnoceedingisi ouiglDt not to be continued longer, tHian possible, and, as I undersitand it, from vairLbusi reaaonsi, \\e will be obliged' to postpone ithis hearing until some future time, and e^'ery opportunity slionld be given to each, side thiat can con- sistently be given to them, iso that when we comie togeither agaiji we isihaill proceed, 'and, a® far as possible, complete thiei investigar tion, and every opportiuniity should be given to' each sidie to get their witnesseis, to know who are material and necessary, and all ttoait. I hope some liberal arrangement wUi be made' in refeirenice to thaig maititer bedaiuse I iseesi it bearsi directly. Mr. Standhfleld. — Yon have been upon the bench iin- this disr triiot You know *he Elmdra bar; yOiu indicate anybody you wanit to come hene. Judge G-ilbent — So far as that is concerned, if I was satisfied thait the members of the' bar in Elmirai were interested in this prosieciution to thart; extent that they would miaike a thotroiugh examination of these recordsi. I can not see any reaon why they should not be selected as well as anybody) else. Mr. Stanchfield. — They would do anything you requested them to do in the premises or the complainantsi, any reputable lawyer would. Mr. Craig. — Suggest somebody in Albany or Blnghamton ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — Or send somebody here from Rochester. Mr. White. — We are not authorized to engage counsel or take any such step. Mr. Craig. — It is reduced to a, nutshell, it seems to me. The committee will appoint Mr. White, if the objections are withdrawn. The coiumilttee knows of no reason why llr. White is not a proper person to go in there and examine those books, and we think, in the nature of the case, we think the committee should be gov- erned by the wishes on both sides with reference to the person to examine these books, especially as it is requested that they go beyond the allegations, and the commitf ee has suggested that some person, member of the bar, representing the complainants would be appointed by the committee if nominated by the comr plainants, and counsel for the insititution has 'said he will agree to ajiy reputable lawyer. Tbe further suggestion, is that during the adjournment that agreement may be effected. The representa- tives of the World say they are not authorized to' retain counsel. I suggest to the defendants that they, if possible, with the precmi- tions that have been suggested here, that no exti-acts shall bie used for publioatiion until piwed by the commitltee, that it will 146 saVe a great deal of time and trouble and dispute here if tihey vithdraw their objection to the appointment of Mr. White. I do not believe Mr. White will abuse his appointment. Mr. Stanchfleld.— The difficulty is, it is contended on the part of the board of managers he has done so. Mr. Oraig. — He has had no trust before. Mr. Stanchfield. — He hasi been here. Mr. Oraig. — If he is appointed it will be a trust. Mr. Stanchfield. — He has been false to what he has stated here. I am stating tha.t for the board of managers. I do not know Mr. WTiite personally. That is the principal objection to him. Mr. White. — As far as I know, I have been perfectly fair. Judge Grilbert. — I would suggest, suppose Mr. White was per- mitted to examine the books by himself here, not comiag in con- tact with anyone, but the books could be handed to him to make sueh extracts as he was a mind to; he can not carry any of the records away; he can not injure them in any way. Mr. Eathbone. — Why insist upon Mr. White ? . Judge Gilbert. — ^ Simply for tiiis reason: I suppose that he is the most familiar with the case, and those matters that would be necessary to be inquired into upon the examination. That is the only reason I know of. Mr. Craig. — And he says he is not authorized by the complain- ants ' to retain counsel in their behalf, toi make this examinaition. Judge Gilbert. — Some room could be assigned him, and when a book is wanted, it could be brought in' there and Jie could examine it and make such extracts as he desired. Dr. Wey. — Mr. Whilte'si pnevariiciatiotns in respect to communica- taomig in the World, his perversalon and substtitaittion of evidence would make him thjoiroughly unfit. You say he can not carry away the records, butt he eould dairy away the records of the recoiids. He can 'sdbverft them'. Judge Gilbert. — I think yoiui lose sight of the object of this examinartion; it is simply torn 'the purpose of getrtfinig isu-eh infbrma- tion lais may enable them to prepaire for the 'hteairitoig. Dr. Wey. — It seem® to mie, inasimiuich as this person repre- senting the New York World has made thtese chiaipges:, and has perverted the truth again and again, and has suibomed people to do it in this community, he should not^ in any way, be a party in this 'tmamsaofcioin. 39 146 Judge Grilbteirt.— I do not itMnk, Mr. Wey, tihis is a piroper time or ocoaision to say anything one wiay or the other that ■will reflect upon the Tepa;city or integrity of amy. Dr. Wey. — I am simply opposting the proposdrtiooi which it seems Mr. Oriaig ife anxibius Mi-. White is to be appomted. I under- stand from the language of Judge G-lhert he is favoraHe to it, also-; it seems to us eminently impawper thait person should have anything to do with it. Mr. Wlhite. — We have not shown anything in the liae of per- vension or anything of that kind. ' Mr. Oraig. — ^This is my position, Dr. Wey; I do not know why we should assume Mr. WTiite should be untrue to tlie trust. I do not know if anything wrong hals been done by the World or how far he ia responsible for it. I have some impressiions of Mr. White, pensonaJly, that are not quite consiistent with the allega.tionis made against him here, but however ttuat may be, assuming for argument's sake, that Mr. White ma,y not have been altogether discreet, I think under the appointiment of the committee he would be true to the trust, and that he would observe the stipulation not to use amy memoinamda taken from the bboka or any infoirmation taken from, the books until the same ishjaJl have been received her© in evidence. Yoiur botod have been mamifestly libei'al in putting in evidence which you have gathered for yourselves for general purpoisesi here and in other ways, amd I suggest you extend that liberality on the impires- siom of the committee, that thisi trust wUl not be abused, amd while the committee 'do not feel up to' the present time, they haive not felt they sh.ould go contrary to the usuages of couirtsi, amd appoint la nominiee who is objected tO' om the other ;side, we think it would avoid a great deal of dispute and delay, amd facilitate the proceedings if the boaird of mamagens will vraive their objection. Dr. Wey. — The managers protest most earnestly against such an appointment, with all due respect toi the commiittee. Mr. Oraig. — I wish the counsel for the manageris would consult with them, in view of what I have just stated, and], funther, in view of my further suggestion that the committee would hedge about the examination of these books with such preoautioms thfat the trust could hardly be abused. Dr. Wey. — We will retire to have a conference. (Tlhe bterd of managers here retired.) Boibert Wooley, being duly sworn, testified: Examiimied by Judge GrUbert: Q. Are you connected with the ELmira refooramatory? A. I am prison olerk. 147 Q. Hoiw long a titnje hJaive you been? A. Two yeans. Q. "Wlhiait was your employmieiat betfoire you were eunplbyed as •dlsioiii clerk? A. I was employed in iih.© biusiness office of th.e liisoai. Q. Hjow lonig a time were you employedl i!n tke ibusiness office? ._Two yeaira Q. Wliat was your employment before tliait ? ley, reoaUedi: Examined by Mr. Craig : Q. You have already testified to these letters here, and that you delivered them to Mr. Hoppe; do you know how many there were ? A. I do not; I think there were about 900. Q. You delivered th«m in two parcels ? A. Two boxes. Q. Did you deliver them two different times? A. No; both together. Q. Were tbey received this morning ? A. There were probably twenty-five or thirty received this niorning. Q. What did you do with those ? A. I sent them down to the superintendent. Oscar Hoppe, recalled: Examined by Mr., Craig: Q. Erom whom did you receive tbeee twenty-five letters^ mot>e or less, this morning ? A. I think it was Mr. WooUey, up at the guard-room oifice, at tbe table; it may have been Mr. Busih; I think they were both at the desk, and he said he had twenty-four more; I think it was Mr. WooUey; I am not positive. Q. He just teBa lie deliver^ them to the siuperitebendent? A. No; he handed them to me; he must be mistaken; he handed mo twenty-four ; I counted them, which contained one from a man in the hospital. Eobert WooUey, recaUed : Examined by Mr. Craig: Q. When you say you handed twenty-five letters, more or less, to the superintendent, did you mean the acting superintendent ? 160 A. I didn't hand tkem to him; I addressed a note to the snperin- tendent, stating they were coUefted by the night watchman. Q. What superinttenideait? A. I presmne Mr. Batbbone, just 9ui)eirdnitendenrt; of the prison. Q. Did you receive all the other letteins in one pajckage or more? A. In two boxes. Q. At two differemit itijmes? A. iSo; we had edght clerks at them; each brought in some, and I placed themi in tihe boxes. Q. To whom did you deliver these boxes? A. To Mir. Hoppe. Q. Did you deiivei" Tnim amy paclaaigie of letters outside of the boxes afterwards? A. I think it ^as Mr. Hoppe I handed the letters to this morning; up on the floor. Q. I thought you haaided them to the siuperintendeint? A. No; I addressed them to the siupeirLntendent. Mr. Onaig. — As I understanid, there are no witnesiaes soib- poenaed for the complainiantsi here thfls morning; I wUi ask the represientatives of the compMnant. Mr. White. — No sir; there are none. Mr. Oriaig. — Thiere will have to be time for the secretary for the committee to examine these letters, and examine the memor- andum from, the books, lamd I will say in comjiectiom with what we are considering now, that it will, therefoTe, be neoesisary to have an adjouimmeiit, and ithe ladjoummemt, when it takasi place, . wiU be to this place. This very committee of the boaird has pend- ing lam examination in New York city which is adjourned to the first part of next week, but after coaisul'tation with the Attorney- General, it is deemed that it will be practicaible for them to be hea-e on the fifth; will that 'be convenient to all parties concerned? Judge Gilbert — As I understand it, the committee dtesires to be present at the reformatory duriqig one Sabbiaith. Mr. Onaig. — Yes. Judge Gilbert. — Why not commence the investigataomi on Satur- day, which will be the seventh, and proceed as long as we can? Mr. Oraig.— We could not proceed longer than Monday evening, bectanise the secretary of the committee will have to be at Albany. Judge GUibent. — Could not the secretary give us another day; we can get in a great deal of proof in three da^? Mr. Oraig. — Can you remain until Tuesday evening? Mr. Fanning. — I shall have to; it will be very tnoonvenlent. Mr. Oraig.— Unless we adjourn umtdl after the meeting of the board, which would be the thirteenth, we would have to adopt the Attorney-General's siuggestion. Judge Gilbert. — ■ There are several things why I think we ought to have the next heairiiiig las soon as possible. In the first place, these hearings are held at this inisititurtioin and it more or less must 151 interfe're wiitt ,the affaiirsi donmectled with iti, and in the next place Mr. Buockway is suspended. It is due Ihim that these ptro- oeedinigH be aamed forwaird as istpeedHly as possible and closed, and if we do not have a hearing nnitil after the eleventh, we have got to have tte saime nurabei? of heairings, and it is going to extend the matter too long. Mr. Cnaig. — If there is no objection it is dipeicted that when thesle prooeedingB 'aire adjonimed they wUl be adjourned to 9 o'clock, SatuiPdia^f mjoiming, October seventh:, at tihis place. Now, Mr. Stamohifleld, have you' anything?' Mr. Stanicihifleld. — I tMnk this tribunal wUl bear me out in the aissentitna that in everythinig that has transpired so far, with refeipemoe to the conduct of this investigation, the boani of miajnagers of this institution have thrown wide the door, with, referenoe to the fullest and completestt tnquiory. Speaking from a istiiictly legal standpoint, I do not know that I agree with the attitude that Judge G-ilbeirt has; taken lais to what it is incumbent upon ithe board of manageirsi oir the defense toi show,' or, at least, ^vhat would be their attitude with reference to. exposing their books to public gaze and scrutiny, but we ha^^e acquiesced m htm ais acting as a judge-advocate of court-maitial, laind we do it cheer- fully and with the greatest cooofidence in his integrity, and the fact that he will ciaopafuUy represent both sides of this litigation. The board of managers, if. the committee please, emphatically now, as we did before, object to the "personality of Mr. White, as the man to miaike the investigation of these books. We do it becaiuise of the fact — ■ I am aisiseirting now what the ■ board of miaaiiaigena say as a body, and individually — ^becaueie of the fact that upon other occasions he has come here with one pretense and has used inf brmaMom that he has elicited f-rom ihB institlution for a totally diffeirent purpose; in other words^ that he hasi dfeoeived the OTiperlntendent, he has deceived the board of mianagers with refer- ence to the object of hisi inquiries here, and the use to which he would put the infbomaation so obtained, and it is beoauise of the fact ttoat we have, had that -experience with him in the past, fhut we have made the objection to his acting in this capacity. Now, the committee in language, which, at least, I, as a lawyer, can ~ understand lamd appreciate, have seen fit to intimate their desire thajt we withdraw objection to the personality of Mr. White, and that- he be allowed to make this 'examination here. Now, with the thorougih underteitanding at the outset that the committee take the responsibility, I mean yoiuirseE and your colleiague, tliat this trufit shall not be abused, and that you will asisume the responsibilily for what happens in the futuire, and see that every safeguard is thrown around this inquiry, and that what he gainsi 152 or obtadiis from the booikia of this inistilraftioii arei not uisied for mewis- papens purposes, and are not to appear in the coltumms of the New York World, or in any paper paWislhied; the boaind of maniagers have inistructed me to siay that tinder sucih condition® that we will accept Mr. White. Mr. Oaig. — Of conirai^ we can exesrcise, discbjarge such a responsibility only by tnistuig Mr. White, and I think that aifter consultaitioin' we are of one mindl, that we will trust Mr. White on his sitipulatiom to be entered on the opea record h.ei'e, that he wiU not use the informaition which he obtains', in any way, directly or indirectly, until after it shall Ihave been received in eTidence in the open bearimg, in this proceeding. Judge Gilbert. — What do you say to that ? \ Mr. White. — I am willing to make that stipulation. Mr. Craig. — That is a personal stipulation from you, not from jour principal, and not from tbe World, and tbe information belongs to you and to nobody else until it is used bere. Judge Gilbert. — I think it would be perhaps well enough to say that is information for the purpose of enabling counsel to present tlic matter. Mr. Graig. — There is a further stipulation that Mr. Wbite will be called to enter iato, and is customary in such investigation®, that he will not directly or indirectly communicate witb any inmate of the institution or attempt to do so.. Mr. White. — I wUl enter into that S'tipulation. Mr. Oraig. — We wUl axid to the condition, " without the permis- sion of the acting superintendent." Mr. Stancihfleld.— It is further asked, such examination that he makes is to be in the presence, of such oflicer or offloial as the act- ing superintendent may designate for the purpose. Mr. Graig. — Always would be. Mr. Stanchfleld.^ And further, that contemplates simply the admission of Mr. White; it does not include the staff of the New York World. Mr. Oraig. — Not at all. Mr. White in person, and no one else, without further orders. Mr. White.— I would like to understand clearly just how much thi& permission is going to allow me, whether I can go in and ask for the records that will sihow how many men have died in a cer- tain period of time. Mr. Graig. — I don't understand there is any limitation in those respects. ^ Mr. Stanchfield. — No. He might make inquiries that the records do not show ; that I do not know anything about. Mr. Oraig. — He is entitled to see the records he wants to see ? 153 Mr. StancMeld. — Yes. Mr. 'WMta — There is no limitarfioiii to tJie necoird.®. I can see any record there isi here? Mr. StancMeld. — Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — There is notMug further to be considered, unless somq one hais some matter to propose. Judge Gilbert. — Permit me to say, further, that we should be , furnished, or some metbod should be agreed npon, in reference to procuring the attendance of witnesses, so when we come together next time — Mr. Craig. — -To whom shall the subpoenas be delivered for the complaina»nts ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — It would be difficult for us to subpoena any- body nhtil we knew what the evidence was. Judge Gilbert. — If you should want ahy subpoenas, Mr. Fanning will furnish, them. Mr. Craig.^iAnyone can obtain subpoenas by applying at the oiijce of the board by person or by mail. If any person to-day wants any subpoenas they will be sent to him. Judge G-UbeiFfc. — Penhajps this majtber shooild be refenredl to; a® I imderstand it, it has been thought best, as speedily as poissible, to close this investigation so far as this institution is concerned; in that view you shall have an opportunity when the af&rmative proof is introduced, so far as affirmative proof is to be in.tro- duced here ait the reformatory, that you shall have an oppor- tunity immediately to bring forward your proof, and it might be necessairy for you to have subpoenas in order to procure the attendance of witnesses on that part of the inquiry. Mr. Stlanjcbifleld. — That wotild be true; another suggestion, if we could be fumisihed with the names of ■witnesses that were to be sworn in a given half day, wherever we had record® or any- (thing of that kind that would be applicable, we could have them here ajb call. Mr. Craig.-- It would facilitate the proceedinga Mr. Stanchifield.— Unquiestiomably would. Mr. Oraag. — Mr. White, do you wish any subpoenas? Mr. White. — Yes, sir. Mr. Oradg. — Give your requesit to Mr. Fanning, with the num- ber of subpo'en'as yoiu want, and they wiU be fuimisihed to you. Give the witnesses as far as you cam. Judge GUbenii — I think aJl witnesses that can conveniently attend here had better be summoned here. Mr. Stanchfleld. — Would you expect us to produce the evidenice for the defense by pieoemneal? 20 15* Mr. Oaig.— Judge Gilbert has suggtwted we get through. wWlh the affirmiative before the' defense is taken up, but with this quali- flcatiom, that the request of the board of managers — they \\'ish us to get through here lais fast as poesiiblei, so I suppose Judge Gil- bert would make it convenient to take up both sides so far as witnesses to be sworn here. Judge Gilbentl — That is my idea, aoid aifter that the manage- ment would not be expected to produce their proof until the afflrmance was through. :Mr. Craig.^ It may be explained so it will be understood that subpoenas are issued by the board very much asi they are issued by court. There is a form which we follow, and they have to be served precisiely the same as subpoenas issued by a court, show- ing the original, and delivering a copy, and paying tb,e legal fees, which are fifty cents a day and eight cents a mile, if the person lives more than tlwo or three miles from the building. The board does not furnish the money, it furnishes the subpoenas, and in cases of indigence and poverty, if a witness is unable to come, that would be something for special consideration, but we expt-el-, the witnesses that come hei'e will, as a rule, come without pay- ment from the funds of the board. Mr. White. — -About the seiwing of the subpoenas, will T be allowed to serve them? Mr. Oaig. — Anybody can serve them. You undertstand no witness is barred out on account of his povertly. Tlie money will, not be furnished by the board to pay the witnesses, it will be iurnished by the respective sides to the allegationis; that is the- general rule, if there is' a case that sihould be an exception it will be considea-ed by the board. We do not want any testimony excluded on account of inabilitj^ If there is nothing further to be presented the investigaMon will stand adjourned, as before ordered, that is-, to 9 o'clock on Saturday, October seventh, at this place. AdjoiuTied to Saturday, October 7, 1893. PROOEEDESTGS EST THE CHAPEL OF THE REFORMATORY, TUESDAY EVENING, SEPTEMBER 26, 1893. Mr. Brockway. — We oug'ht almost to aipologize for dragging you up these long stairs — we have just now dragged oursehcsup — and takinig half an hour from youin school tiime, but there are circum- stances that seem to render it neceslsiairy that some announce- ^ ments should be made and infoiraniartion given you, and requests 155 made of yom, wMcih will ajppear later! oEq ini tthie very few remarks 'tlhiat I may have to miake. One impoirtanit aimoiuaiceimeait I shall makie at the close; sucih a one' as has never been made in any prison isince Satan comsitriucted them. The fost thing I want to «ay is you wiU see Manageir Klaitlhibone aoround here a great deal for a few days or weeks — oh! I will ibe within hail; but I am going to hjave a day off. (Applause.) Noi sierLouis iatenruption to the oirder of procedure, and no deprivation of en(teiritaimm.eQts and inistrucition will take place. Juist as soon as this eleotro^motor is adjusted you shall have yoiur organ concent and the grand opening, which we hope will be next week. Mr. Wilkinson is coming down to give us that from Eoich.ester. We will enideajvom, on that occa- sion, rto introduce someithing more than tte otrgan*. A fine bari- tone from Eochester is coming. At th;e endi of October, Air. Adamis, of the New York Sum, an expert in his line, will give us one, perhaps three, UkiBitirated lectures) on Airica and other obscoxre countries. , Those you will be very much tpter- esited in, I have no douibt. After (that, Dr. Oaidlwell, of OormeU, wiU fill his engagement to give us three lectures, the flrstt one on the, chemiical comibination of common things — you will excuse the alliteraition, but there seems to be no other way of expressing itx The next one will be on hiisitary, brief outliooes of history of chemical discoveries, then a prophetic outlook as to the value and prospect of chemistry in the future. That is all on that isubject. I w^as going to say the grade chauges this month, which take place in a few days, will be made by Mr. Eathbone, and the prepanaitiooQi of the list of men to go befod'e the boiard for parole, will be made by Mr. Eathbone, with isuch assistauoe as the clerks can give, anid such advice as the laubscriber can 'suggest. (Applause and laughter.) I have had a mind to give thena some fatherly advice, but I can't do that this month; it will interrupt my vacation^ so I want to give one or two points to the whole house thartl, really, I haven't, myself, thought of until lately; points )of the greatest service to you; first, thoise of the red bamd whOi are going to take off their color and put on the neutral color; I antioipate there wOl be a large number of you coming out of ithe low grade. I want to give you one or two isuggestions how to stay there; precisely the same as I have given to some of these men now in diark gray clothes, when I have seen them in the school^room, after their proimotion. One of the reasons men go down after they ha,ve gone up is they would make & mistake as to the value of reports. Many of you know, because I have told you; siome do not know it, because I have neglected to tell you "Jthat a man can get three second-class reports and he is short ninety cents, but he does not lose his month. 156 lS reformatory. It is the duty of ever\' inniate hereto obey the rulee we are not here, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the proper discipline and management of this reformatory; that should be ; understood by every inmate. But there will be no discipline on account of any statement tliat may be made in these sealed , envelopes addressed to me. (Applause.) The committee then proceeded to a further inspection of the reforma4;ory. Elmika, Saturday, Octoher 7, 189', 9 a. m. The committee met piirsuant to adjournment. Present. — Hon. Oscar Craig, chairman; Dr. Stephen T. Smith and Edward H. Litchfield. Deputy Attorney-Greneral Prank E. : Gilbert. For the board of managers, John Stanchfield and E. T. Eabcock. Mr. Craig. — I believe all the parties in interest are present, and v>'(t are ready to proceed. Judge Gilbert. — I think it would be well enough, Mr. Chairman, to introduce here a copy of the by-laws, rules and regulations relating to the management of the institution. Mr. Stanchfield. — Are these the ones in force at the present time ? 160 Mr. Brockway. — Yes, as far as they are applicable to the present situation. Mr. Craig. — The intent is to have all the by-laws and regula- tions which affect the discipline, government and administratio'n. Mr. Brockway. — That is all printed, except those to be fmind in the penological pamphlets and reports, which we wUl submit. It is many years since those were prepared, and the syeitem is greatly changed. Mr. Oraig. — WUl it be convenient to suibmiit them aU ait the present time? Mr. Brockway. — The new series are not yet in writing. We are about comparing a new series. Mr. Craig. — Does this comprisie mow all that ajre in presBi; all thart; aire printed. That isn't the point, all that are in force; all the by-laws and regulations? Mr. Brockway. — Those aire not by-laiws and regulations of the board of managers; they are oopiesi of the rules and regulajtions for the government of the institution. There aire no formulated by-laws, I think, of the boa.rd of ma'nia^gement. Do you know of any? Dr. Wey. — I am not awaire of anjy of that kind. Mr. Craig.— The statute reposes tiie government and adminis- tuation in the board of managetrs; that is a point of law. The point of fact is what action, if any, has the board of managers taken under the statute. Yon see the intent; we want all the by-laws and regulations and ndes of the boairdi of managers or referring to them; isn't that wihat you want? Judge G-Ubert. — Yes, sir. Mr. Broclvway. — We should have a record of the proceedings for seventeen or eighteen years, but they are in no sense by-laws, rules or regiilations for the government of the boaird. Mr. Oraig. — Whatever tihey may be called anything ,that relates to the discipline, government or admdiustiration of the refomnatory we ought to have compiled and presented in fomn. Judge Gilbert. — Mr. Brockway; we will swear you now, Mr. Brockway, unless you have some objectiO'n. Mr. Brockway.— I am entirely at yonr service, but I think theie may be some objection on the part of our adviseri^, about intro- ducing the defense before the accusations aire piroperly before the commission. I will ask their pleajsiune aiboiut it. Judge Gilbert — Let me say that my idea is, that^ so f ajr as these specific charges, etc., are concerned, thartj you ought noit to be interrogated in reference ito those until thje proof has been intro- duced on the part of those who expect to siustaim them, but the examination, if yon are sworn now, will relaite to matters of a 161 generaJ charaxjtei' oomxeoted witili the miaaiagenieiit of tihie msrtjitutiomj. Mt. Staniclifleld.^- We ihave hewe this book of rules which runs back to 1873; it containis, piriactically, what tih.Bre is tni printed farm and used so far as atpplicaJble; that is aboiut the' best ansAver I cam give you. Mr. Oraig. — When was this c^mpileld. Mn. Stamchiield. — I shOiild judge from the date, certainly, as far back as the inioefptioni of the. inistitntion, isflo/t it, Mr. Broickway? Ma". BTOickway. — I dpn't nemember! the da|te. Mr. Craig.— Can you give each member of the committee and the Attomey-Greneral a copy? Mr. Stanichfl.el4. — I think so. Zdbulon R. Bax>ckway, being duly iswomi, testifled: Examined by Judge GrUbeirtt: Q. Yolu aire supeiinifcemdemt of the Elmina reforanatory? A. I am. Q. How long have yon been siuperintendient? A. Since the 12th of May, 1876. Q. Oonitinraoiusly? A. Contkmoiuisly. Q. Had you been connected with any institution prior to that ois a manager oir in any either capacity? A. I had; I had: been connected for ten years or moire as siuperintendient of the Detroit Honise of Detention; opened, completed' and organized it; I had, for sevien years, 1854 to 1861, been superintendent of tlhJe Monroe oonnty penitentiary, opened it and organized it; previous to^ that I was first officer in the Albany penitentiary and previous to that, the beginning of my — I Q. (Int'g). How long were you connected with the Albany peni- tentiary? A. I think about three yeaiis; I won't be certain; I was at the Conneotlicut State prison; clerk of that prison. • Q. How long were you clerk of the prison? A. My recollection is a yeaiP; I am not definite as toi date. Q. Wliat is yoTir age now? A. I was born in 1827. Q. Wliere,were yoiu born, what State? A. I was bom in Oon- nectliont. Q. So that nearly your entire life — A. My entire life with jHie exception of three years — Q. Has been connected with some of these penal institiutions? A. Yes. By Mr. Oalg: , Q. At Albany yon were associated with Mr. Pillsbury in open- ing and organizing that penitentiary? A. The Albany peni:feiitiiaiEy 21 162 had been opened, but I was tJiere in tbe yearn of its active development three or four years. Q. i£r. Pillsbury was the bead? A. Yes, sir; Mir. Pillsbury the elder, the late Gen. Pillsbury. Q. Did you ajcoompany Mr. Pillsbury there? 'A. No, edr; I went there from the Connecticut prison at his solicitation. , y Q. After be haJd gone there? »A. Yes, sir. By Judge GUbert: (}. Have you any profession, tbat is, are you a pbysician? A. No, sir. «i. Wbo consfcitiute the board of mana/gemeniti of this institution now? A. Dr. William C. Wey, M. H. Amot, Jamesi T. Rathbone, WUliam H. Peters, Benjamin L. Swartwood. Q. Ha;ve you by-laws, rules and regulations, undei' wbioh the institution is managed? A. The copy that hasi been sub- mitted constStute the printed byjaws. Q. Is this the one? A. That isi the volume. ' Judgie Gilbert. — We will iatroduce that or so much of the record as may be required as maitlerial by the committee oi' may be desired to be introduced on the paa-t of either party. Marked "Exbibit No. 1, October 7, '93 — J. M. R." By Mr. Oraig: Q. Do I understand these by-laws have been formally adopted? A. They were; when tlhey were formulated formally adopted by the board of managers. Q. That was what year? A. The date will appear there, I think — there isn't any date here; say 1885 at a guess, about 1885. Q. Adopted by the board of managers? A. I tbink I will have to go back further than that, along soon after 1880 ; I will change that statement; they have been in operation many yeairs. Q. How long was that after you came? A. I caflnei here in 1870. Q. Wbat did you have intermediate? A. We were eKperimemll- ing, evolutiag. Q. You didn't have any formal laws? A. No fomnal rules or regulations tbe first three or four years. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Have these by-laws been amended? A. Noti formally by tbe board of managers in any written proceedings. Q. You say not formally, have they been informally amended? A. Allow me to explain; to go back to tbe beginning, tbe law and the system was quite new in tbe management of prisons. 163 and we proceeded experimentally, step by step, in evolving a new and improved sfystem. of prisoii administration, anid sd of neces- sity a good deal of disciretioii was left; it came down after a w'Mle (:f> a period where we formulated theise rules and regulationa In the growth, and development of the institution, coneitant changes of industry, particiularly the changes that were inaugurated at the passage of what is known iis the Yates bill, abolishing all labor, instituting the military system. Many of those rules, particu- larly those relaiting to the taste in trades not n,ow in the institu- tion, which were abolished by that law, and the mdliitlairy system brought into, use, various rales and regulationis which appear in the military manual, which I will also submit here, and fromi tilme to time similair matters of administration required some' new regulationis to meet an exigency, which the superiatendent had had discretion. > Q. I, will call your attention more particularly to that portion of the by-laws which relate to discipline; have the by-laws, relai- tive to the discipline of the prison, been materially changed sinice tliose were adopted ? A. No ; the by-lawis have not been materially changed. Q. Have there been any rules or regulations adopted by the board of management with reference to the discipline of the inmates ? A. No rules and regulations. Q. Do I understand you to say that there are none that have been adopted by the board of management relatin.g to the manner of disciplining the inmates except such as are contained in this printed volume ? A. I believe not, except as ispiecial cases came up, such as the authorization of a parole and matters of that sort brought before the managersi ait their regular meetings!; a special resolution would be passed^in relation to that particular thing, and that would appear in the proceedings of the managers'. No for- miulated rules and regulajtlonis seriously amending those has' to my knowledge been' prepared by the board' of managersi Q. Have the board of management since 1890, or even sin.ce 1885, adopted any resolution directing the manner in which inmates are to be disciplined or punished ? A. Noi, sir. Q. Is the method of punishment regulated by a resolution, or direction, resolution passed by the board of management, or direc- tion from the board of management, or is it regulated by your- self ? A. It is regulated by the general 'superintendent, with the, approval, tacit or expressed, of the board of managers. Q. What do you mean by " tacit " ? A. That a disciplinary treatment is a matter of conversation, and conference at the monthly meetings; it is understood by us all as being in usie. 164 Q. So we are to understand, with reference to the particular manner or method of disciplining or punishing an inmate for any particular ;^-iolation of the rules of the institution or for any aUeged misconduct, that is not under the direction of the board; that is, they had hot by written instruction to you, directed you how or in what manner to punish an inmate for that particular offense? A. Oh, no, sir. Q. That is left to the supa-intendent ? A. That is left to the superdntendent. Q. I uD,deiistand you to say that you are not aware of the board adopting or passing any resolutions regulating that matter ? A. Xo. j\Jr. Craig. — Right at that point I think notice should be given to have the record found which contains the resolution or action of the board adopting that exhibit an.d produced at a convenient time; that would be the written evidence, instead of oral evidemce. By Judge Gilbert: <4. So that the matter is left to the 'siipeidntendent to decide or determine when and in what manner punishment may be inflicted ? A. Yes. Q. In reference to this branch of the subject, are there any questions, Mr. Chairman, you would like to ask ? i\Ir. Craig. — Xo. 1 would like to call attention to the point I just suggested, about that record proof. The Witness. — We will have that found, su-. Mr. Craig. — On this question of authority by the board, I have no questions to isuggest. Judge Gilbert. — Have you any questions to suggest, Mr. White ? ]Mr. White. — J^othing. . Judge Gilbert.— Have you any questions, Mr. Stanchiield, in referen.ce to the authority ? Mr. Craig. — I would request Mr. Hoppe or some one furnish the Attorney-General and each member of the committee a copy of this exhibit. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I asked him to get those; they are looking them up. Judge Gilbert.— I will suggest, after Mr. Brockway's examina- tion closes, perhaps it would be \\ell enough to put upon the stand one of the managers, who perhaps will be better able to testify in refei'ence to what resolutions, etc., have been adopted by them relating to the discipline, and then they produce whatev^ records they have. Mr. Craig.— Precisely; this is an exhibit now and each one of us would like a copy. 165 Biy Judge Grlll>ert: Q. What are the different methods of discipline adopted or used heire in the insltitution; state as near as you can recollect in general? A. The marking system under the so-caUed indetermi- nate sentence law constitutes the principal means of discipline, moral means, to deisci'ibe which would occupy you for some time. Q. On thii^ quesition I merely a«.k you to simply state the dif- ferent methods without goimg into any lengthy explanation? A. The markinig systean, the grade changes with the loss or increase of privileges, constitute the bulk of the moral disciplinary means; the only means of compulsory physical discipline in use in this rc'ixiirana/toiry, with yeiry slight amd iiJsiignlflcant exceptiioinja, is what is known as spanking; we have, as you saw, the seclusion cells, that up to the time of my relief from my dutj werei rarely or never used for disciplinary purposes, more for temporary deten- tion; we have, as you saw there, the reception rooms; those are not for punishment; they are us^, h,s I explained to you the other day, mainly for the detention of men pending inveistigation; we have on one of the corridors "rest cure" sign, scarcely a means of ^unishmenit, although a meansi of discipline; men who euve found intractable and for whom we make every effort until it is found that, ail onr effoirtB avail lititle or nothing', are someitlmes put on that gallery, in an ordinary cell, being idle, with only two rations a day, never going out; called " rest cure " because it gives a man an entire rest from the iiTitations and requirements of the ordinary discipline in the shops; I think I have stated, if I remember correctly, the various means of discipline in a very concise and summary way. Q. You may describe more definitely the cells known as soli- tary cells ? A. There are eight iron cells, built four ye'aris ago, in the new addition, four or five years ago; they are one-story; thfey aire above ground, on a level with the corridors; they are in. a division, the extreme division, lower story, of the new south wing. They are flat-iron shape, the dpor being at the smaller end of the flat-iron; they are, 'as near as I can remember, about eight feet on the long parti of tihei flat-iron and two i or three feet, prob- ably two feet and a half where the door isi on thei small part, and about nine feet deep, four on one side and four on the other; th(; doors of those cells are substantially the same as' the doors of the cells in ithe coinriidore, maide of thre&foiurthis or fiveseSiglhtihis round iron bars, two inches or two and a half apairt and open to the corrida. Ey Mr. Craig: Q. Will you designate the location in the new south wing of those eight cells? A. In| the extlreme west end of it, in the lower stocpy. 166 Q. On the ground' floor? A. On the ground floor. Q. Noit basement, but ground floor ? A. No; ground floor. By Judge Grilbert: Q. What fixtures or ajppajraitius is there in these cells for the piupose of confining the itnniates? A. There is a bar running aoTOSB the back end in an inclined position or siantinig posiition about four feet long, as near 'as I can remenibei*, to which there is attached a sliding swivel; those were put in, having been suggested by the experience we had in an ordinary cell with, a prisoner, homicidal, who. kiUed another and whom we were obliged to detein 'hea^e for sOmje mxwitlh!si, pieniMng hiis beiing biroughlb to trial; he was very ingenious inventing methodsi of injurinlg ithe officers who came to supply bim with hisi ratioaisi and took care of Ms room, so thait itt became, necessary toi secure him by one haaid to tihis eliding aairangement or socket on tihe bar; he could lie down by sliding it down to the lower end, or he couldl stajad and get his exercise by sliding his socket up to tihe upper end. That constartnites,, I think, a fair desciription of it; then there is at the base of that in the side waU, a smlall oirdinajcy ring bolt; the use of that is not for punisiunenit prLmanUy but security against escapes because of a single niaii over there, we doi not always send em officer, and security of the' prisoner ihimself againist self injury, in a moirbid or bad mood; men who aire confined toi rtihat lower ring bolt are confined by tihe hajidcuff ajbtadhed to one wrist aaid t!he other handcuff into the ring bolt, giving themi, I sihould siay, fuUy 1:welve inches or more of play; th.ey aJwaysi lie on a bed and blanket. By Mr. Oraig: Q. You staited to give one particular case as. an occasion for some chjange, but you didn't complete it? A. I said tihe comstruc- tion of these ceils wias suggesttedi by fthe expetriemice we had with a prisoner who was confined' in an ordinary call many years ago. By Judge GilbetFt: Q. From the experience you had with prisoners you found thait this form of ceU was the besib form toi be adopted? A. Yes, sir. , Q. The blanket and the bed which you refer toi, were they so placed that when a pirilsoner was chiained to' that lower ring, the ring anid bolt in the floor or side of tihe ceU tihiati ihe could lie down? A. Oh, yes. 167 Q. But it held Mm. iai ciloisfe comfinement to ttati potat? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Omig. — EiglLt here, I rtMok Mr. Brookway did.' mot complete hia .atatemeiit of this jiairtiiciilairi case because he staited that these diotuble rings or meams of lattachment were intetnidedi toi prereut self injury, land dMn't staite whait hap'pemied to^ thait roiaoi. Judge Grilbert. — I suggested to coumsel tlnajb that would lead to the inquiry into a particular case, and it sieems toi me we ought not, with Mr. Brockway, ait this time, toi go intoi any of these isipecial oases. Mr. Oraig. — If it is among the allegaAioms ; I didn't uniderstand it wiais; our secretary isaiysi it is niot among ithe allegationsL Judge GrUbert. — : It wouldl be a proper matter for Mr. Brookway when he comies to introduce proof to disprove fee charge®, toi show the neoesisity of his adopting certain meansi of punishment; I thought we had betteiil, att thiei stage, as far as we could, avoid introdnctag such pr<«)f. Mr. Qnaiig- — Very weili. By Judge Gilbert: Q. These eight cells are all in the same form? lA. Yes, sir. Q. And all 'have the same iron or ring attachment? A. They have. Q. Will ypu be kind enough to produce or Exhibit the, chain or handcuff by which prisonersi are confined? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was there a prisoner or inmatle last confined in one of those cells, as far as you recollect? A. Somel there now, I am told by the acting superintendent, , Q. I mean of your own knowledge? A. For punishment? Q. There for any purpose? A. I couldn't 'Ml you without referring to the record's; I could ascertain upstairs; previousi to the time of my relief from my duties I couldn't tell you; I will have 'tb go badi and find it there. Q. How long a time is the longest that inmates have been con- fined in one of those cells? A. I would be unable to amswer that without! reference to the records, definitely. Q. For what offense or violation of whait rulesi are they usually confined in those ceils? A. There is no sipecial department of rules or particular disciplinary offense for which that treat- ment is prescribed; the disciplinary treatment about which I am giving testimony is not administered, whether it is cellular con- finement or any other treatment, as a penalty for an offense committed. Q. I desire to know why prisoners are sometimes confined iu those cells in the manner in which you have stated? A. An 168 arrest, in our population of 1,500 for any purpose when a mam in found disoiTderly or dangerous, or wiken fan any reason it is desired to seclude him fmra the rest of the population, as in a city or Tillage when a oiYilian is drunk or disorderly, or charged with crime, it becomes necessary to arresit him and place him in a station-house; the use of these rooms is quite anialogoius in our oommunity to the use of a station-hOaise in a city or town. Q. This handcuff presented is- one similar to those used'? A. I think so; they differ somewihat. Q. I notice that the length of the chain between the handcuffs is only about two inches. A. Some of them are longer stOl, I think; this is suJHcient; one in the i-ing and one in the wrieit. Q. When the piTSoner is coaiiflned to the lower ring by a hand- cuff of this description he has' but small opportninitv to move about? A. He can lie dowm or sit up. Q. With power to move his arm or wrist about tliree or four inches? A. He can move his ami or wrist the length of the handcuff. Q. When attached to the .sliding ring then he can move* the whole length of one side of his cell? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there occasions when the foot is fastened to a nng by a handcuff of this kind? ' A. No, sir. Q. It is only used for fastening the hand? A. Fastening the hand. / Q. You don't mean to say the foot of a. convict at any time is fastened to either ring? A. No; sir. Q. Only his hand or wrist? A His hand. By ilr. Craig: Q. Do I understand you properly in this way, that each case confined in- one of those eight oeUs you have just designated is fasteooied by one wrist) to the sliding arrangement on this bar, and tliat there are oases where they are ooniflned by both? A. No, sir; not to my luiowledge; the use of the sliding baof — there is no use of the sliding bar mm since we haven't had a homicidal case in there; if a man is hancuffed at all; not all are handcuffed. Q. What pcoportion are handcuffed? A. I couldn't tell you that without referring to the record. Q. Can yoni tell appowiximiatiely? A. No. Q. What is the rule? A. The i-ule isi they are to be handcuffed at night; the majorilty of them, I preslume, are handcuffed down. Q. Is that confined to one wrisiti or both wrists? A. One wrist. Q. Is any inmate ever handcuffed by both wrists? A. I have nevesT known' it. Q. There are two rrnigis theire? A. There aire two rings theirie. 169 Q. Eaic!h itimiate Ihajs one lliamid' and' anl airim freiel? A. Yes, sir. Q. And the other slides up and down so !hie oami sitlapid or lie on the gtraiunid? A. The oither ainmi. Q. The oither wriist fasitenied: by the hanidcnff slidesi vup^ and dowii? A. He is only fastenied by one wrist; the othetp arm. m enitipely free. Q. One arm is fnee and the other ajriin isi confined? A. Yesi, eiltihen to the ilng bolt below on* the sliding mag. Q. Wlhat is the rule? A. The dng bolt below. Q. So theipe is not a moTeiment up atud down? A. No'. Q. In itihe majority of the caises the man could not stamd? A. The man could ndt sitamd. Q. la that in the day. time as well as' the night? A. Nighlts usually, buteometimea in the diay time. Q. Whjqt is the rule aboujt the 'day time? A. TTieire iSi not any foranuilated- rule about it; it is usually left to tlie dlilscnetiom of the officer. Q. What about the miagorilty of casies? A. My recollection is a:hout half and half; a man' pult in there this mominig might or might not be haindcufPed down, dependiag upon the character of the man. ^ • Q. Half and half by day andl majoirity by night? A. I should think, so near as I ca>n recoUeot albtout it; I can giive you, I think, some accurate statemtenta albout it by conisultdug ttue oiflicer, over thene who Jias charge of that depaartment. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You say the length' of hjis coDfiniem.ent, 'ate., is left to the mlaiQ over there? A. Not th© length of his confinement; whether he elhall be handcuffed down or not^ whatever the primcdpal keeper, the first officer, orderis in relation to it; ilt is quite com- petent for the man who makes the arriest toi miaike ai suggestion; the arrests lare all made by the flnst or isecondi officer. Q. Ape the UMnates ever placed in these cells excfept by direc- tion of the suj^rintenld'ent? A. Never placed in those cells except by the direction of the superlmtendient or his first or second assistant. Q. Are tliey placed there by the oocdier of the first land second assistant! sometimes? A. As a man would be placed in the statiom-house by any jwlicemani; they are arrested and placed thierie .andunmediiaitely reported; a record is made ia the office. Q. Whetiher they shall be dhainied to this bar or ring is left for the officer to determine, in charge? A. The general practice is for security against escapes and security against self itojury, for an officer to handcuff the man to the lowen ring bolt by the wrist. 170 By Mr. Oraig: Q. I understand for sarnie time past they have not confined inmates by meajis of the islidimg anTajnigiemen.t on^ the bar? A. No; not been used. Q. That is lesis sieveiie, of course, thaai the rdlnig bolt in the wall near the floor? A. I don't think there is veiiy much difference; I never have assumed there is; nedther of those resitnaints are intended for punifihmenitL Q. It may be severe, neventiheleisls!, a nmn confined to the ring bolt in the wall near the pavennienife coiuld not stand? A. No'; the ring bolt in the siidtng bar is plaioed there to be used when, for a long time, it is necessairy to detaim ai mam; itemporairy detentions it is not used. Q. How long is a man chained to the ring bolt in the wall near the ground without being able to sttod? A. Without referring to the records about it, T should say the longest time I can remem- ber is four daya I Q. That would be in the discretion of the subordinate officer? A. He could let him up. Q. Or in his discretion chain him down, or .being the rule he would be expected to? (No answer.) Q. I understand the superintendent — no inmate could be placed in those cells except by the direction of the siuperintend- ent? A.. The general superintendent? Q. The general siUiperintendent? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Or the flnst or second officer? A. The flirst or isecond officer who makes the arrest may take him there if he! thinks it necest- SE'iy. ' Q. Then when placed there, whether^ he shall be confined to either one of these rings, is left to the judgment or discretioini of the officer in charge? A. At that time? Q. So far as that imprisonment or oonflnement is conoemed, it may occur then without either the action of the board of ananage- uient or the action of the superintendent? A. Not without the knowledge of the superintendent because it is immediaitely reportled at the guard-roOm office. Q. It may be immediately reported A. Yes. Q. And it might not? A. No; it migbt not be. Mi>. Craig.— I am advised by the secretaoy to the commiflbee there aire witnesses in waiting on ±he specific ohargesinthe allega- tions for the complainants, and in accordance with the general rule adopted I would request them to retSire to another room during the examination of Mr. Brockway. All the witnesses who have been subpoenaed in support of any allegations are requested to retire to another room. 1 171 The "witnesB. — I do not say ttiat. M could not esioape being reported dnrimg tlbe day; tiie whiereaiboiuts of every prisonein is accoTiDited for every diiy. Q. The wheireaiboiits of every pri^ner is aiocJoiunted for every day by the keeper? A. By the records, by the count which takes place seven timeH a daiy. Q. That ooiunt is made by some of the siubordinatesi? A. Oen- taiuly. Q. I waa going to aisk you ihoiw often did yoiu, as superintend- ent, visit thesie oellsi so as toi know of youir own knowledge whO' were in fact comflned there, and alsoi the length of time they had in fact been coraflned? A. I derived my knowledge — ^you can understand how accurate it is and see the importlance of a slip of that kind. Q. Simply answer my question — how often did you, asi super- intendent, visit these ceUs so as ta knotw of your own knowledge who were, in facitl, coniflned there, and alsoi the length of time thej' had in facib been confined? A. I did not visit these cells to ascertain that because I had knowledge of it otherwise. Q. Now, you may explain how you obtaimed knowledge other- wise? A. By the open daily journal that liesi upon the desk under constant obsarvartjon^ and by the seven cO'unts which appear in the couniti book, sitating where each division of pirisoners is, and if anyone was in seclusion it would be so unmistakably entered there. Q. You, as superintendent, had to rely upon the accuracy and the truthfulniessi of the reports and entries made by these subordi- mates? A. I did not hwie to becajuse it was perfectly competenit for me to ^deit any part of the prison, but I did rely upon it as sraflficient. Q. Now, witlhi reference to' the manner in which these cells were lighted, what is the arrangement or locatiooa of the cells with reference to lights? A. Four of them aire located on the eoiuth ' side of the block oppoisite windows; I think there are four, three or four large windows opening out into the park or yard; those on the other side have the open door, but they open eight, or ten, or twelve feet from a blank wall ; the light on the other side in such as is distributed aroiUnd the block from the windows on the south side. Q. As I understand it these eight cells aire located we will say in a large hall or room in the centler with a hallway or vacant space all around the cells between the cells and the walls? A. Yes. Q. And upon one side there are four windows? A, Yes. Q. But upon the ends of the hall and the other side there are no windows? A. No wimdow®. 172 Q. Wbat, if anytMQg, is there by wMdh. the light could, if tsked, be excluded' from the side of the hall upon which the indo'ws are located? A. There are blinds om the inside; they ere not placed there for the purpose of darkening the apartment, ]t rather to be closed when men are conflned on the south side id invalids from the hospital are taking their airing in the yard jpoeilte these windows to prevent communication. Q. Are these blinds closed, tight blinds? A. Closed blinds. Q. When closed do they exclude the light? A. They would Lclude the light if closed. Q. I understand you to say that this tier of cells was the lowest er of cells in the reformatory? A. No, sir; I say they are on a vei with the other cells; same level. ) Q. Are there any cells below that level? A. No. Q. That is, these are the cells then, the lowest cells in the iformaitory, with reference to the grade or story? A. Yes. Q. la there a cell in the insititutioin under ground? A. There not. Q. Novvhere? A. Nowhere; never wasi , Q. No prisoner or inmate has ever been conflned in any cell or iace beloiw or lower than the tier of cells which you are speaking '? A. Never. CI Who detennines the length of time, or under what cipcum- -ances may an iqmate who is conflned in one of these soliltary "lis be released? A. Grenerally the superintendent directly or irough his agents. Q. When you say " directly or through his agen.ts " what do you ean by that? A. I mean I say " Bring that mam out, take hilm at of seclueloaa; put him in the neception room'; bring himi out f the receptionriroom; puit him in the gmaird-hkjuse; take Mm. out I the guard-housie; put him to^ rest cure; biritaigi him , to me on the iiai'd-room floor," and thfen I have a conveirsaitioin with him. Q. When you say under the direiotion of others whait dO' you leam by that? A. I miean I direct. Q. What do you mean by " through his' aigemts?" A. Thait isi, I ill, as I have explained a moimenit ago, send my flirst oflScer to ring him out, or I wlU tell ham to ddnecit the hall keeper to send im to me. Q. Does the agent hawe the righit without yo'un authoirity or ireotions to change the character of his impri^somoient ? A.' No, ir. By Mr. Craig: Q. Wouldn't the flristt or second officein have the right to say to man siimply detained iu one of those cells thiat he be talsein out 'ithout conferring with you? A. No; if he poits a man over there 173 thie monient lie is ,piuit over tlhjece a xecord is nmdie, entered ia a book, as I JiaTe explained, and it iis Hiien broiaght to my aititention; and they do noft] send tbem of any dungeons or dark cells? A. 'Nay I have not for a great many years. Q. How many? A. T^venty yeai's, I think. Q. Have you, Usance you came here as superintendent, made use of any cells lower than the grade of the ordinary cells on the ground floor? A. No, sir. Q. It is suggested to me by one of the committee that he would lilie to have you explain the use that is' commonly made of those blinds on one side of the corridor, on one side of the hall? A. Like this, they are in halves; the use that is made of them is to close the lower portion to prevent communication when the men are taking their airing in the yard outside; the windows are low, only about three feet. Q. Do you mean to say the upper halves are not closed? A. Not closed. 176 Q. Never ? A. I don't know/ thaJt 'ttiey have even been closed, except tlwoor three days; Mr. Eathbone says he found them closed and immediately ordered them opemed. , Q. That is sinoe you were relieved? A. Yea Q. The edfec* of thiat wall would be t0 m^ake those cells dai-'k? A. Yes, eiir. Q. With the blindls open, though tlhere are noi windows on the end of the halls, each of these eight cells i® lighted, as I unden stand you? A. Yes, mc; more or less. Q. HJoiwi lighjted^? A. On the south sMe they are light asi tihis room; on the other side they are as light as' it would be if a heavy screen was erected hte're. Q. Not light enough ttorread? A. No. Q. One side light enough to read? A. Yesi, sir. Q. The other side not light enough to read? A. That would bu a very fair explanation. Q. We want to understand you correctly — hap^e those blindsi, as a matter of fact, doiwn toi the time of your retirement from active duty, ever been closed during the occupaucy of any one of these eight cells? A. Never by my direotion or with my knowl- edge. I Q. Have you been informed they were? A. Never been informed they were. By Judge Grilbert: Q. I am requested to ask you what are the rations given to prisoners confl'ned in these solitariesi? A. Thd sitanding rule, from which there is no vacation except by special direction, Ls twO' regular rations a day instead of three. ' Q. What are the regular rations? A. The ration in the morn- ing would be mieat hash with bread, and at supper bread with tea or bread and water according to the grade the man isiiln; the bread and water treatment I have, as I have abandoned the dark cell treatment^ practically abandoned for many ye'arsi and yet there are exceptional casies where I appeal to the stomach by giving bread and water once or twice .a day; I dion't know now of any instajnce; I have no particular instance in mind and couldn't recall one; but that is sometimes ^one. ' Q. When bread aud water is given what is the amount of bread and amount of water? A. A cup of water, quart cup two-thirds full, is the usual quautity supplied toi the other men in the ceUs at night, and btread, half a pound', would be tiie regulation qiiantity, but it is never weighed and more than that is given, two or three slioeis; the officer is quite at liberty to give them as much bread as he pleases. 176 Q. Yoiu say in special cases that is Avhere bread and waiter ie giveDi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are theiie any instances where or liave there been cases where inmajtes have been kept for a length of time on nothing bu(t bread and water? A. Dou't know of any instance now; it is pos- sible a man mav have been kept a day or two on bread and water; I could ascertain, I think, about that by going back itb th.e records. Q. With refereoce to the dark cells, as they are called, 'have yon any dark cells in it!he ref oimatorj- ? A. There are two cells on the .rest oui"e gallery which you saw the other day; you will remember the location of it by tbe term at the lower end of that gallery and opening out into the open comdor and have wire sc-reens ov&^ them; the screens are sometimes closed to prevent the hall men from passing back and forth, from passing in, things and the inmates from passing ont things, and there is. totbese two blind doorsi; they have not been used I can't remember w'hien; the reason for the blind doors' placed there at. the. time tliey were placed was that these men in these screened cells sometimes halloa, communicate with the crowd in the street or corridor below and a sure and simple way oif correcting that was to close, tbe door temporarily; but they ^\■e!^e erected for the purpose of punishment of men in dark cells; I ha,\en't used tbe dark cell as a feature of prison discipline for a great many years; I attach nO impoa'tamce to it; a light cell is a,s good as a dark one; nolthing gained by a dark cell. Q. You say a screen dooi*; is thc^re a regular bar door besides? A. RegulaJr bar door inside and wire screen door outside. Q. Is the regular bar door locked in the ordinary way? A. Yes. Q. Outside of that and next to it is what you call a screen door made of wire ? A. Yes. Q. And fine meshes? A. Yes, sir. Q. Oiiltsiide of that is this tight board door? A. Yew, sir. Q. AMien (tlhat door is closed then the cell would be dark? A. The cell ^\ould be dark except the light that would come in over the top of it or under the bottom of it; there is an inch or two I bteliev^ • !; Q. You say those cells are not used for penal purposes? A. No, sir; except as I ha.ve described the use of the corridor. By Mr. C5raig: Q. When they are used what is the rule as to whether the ordi- nary bar door or screen door is used? A. The screen door is never closied unless there is some special reason for it. Q. Such as to prevent the passing in of things? A. Yes. 177' Q. So that yoiui are able to say in ordinary oases of confinemeait in tEoHe two cells not tlhe wooden door for darkening and not even itte screen door is used but only the bar door? A. The closed door is not used; hoiw often the screen door isi used I am unaible to say; it makes very little differeoice with the appearance o^ the cell inside; they get substanitiaUy the same light, somewhat dimmed by the sci-een of course, but i^t isn't considered an addi- tional hardsiMp. Q. Those are the two cells we examined the other day in inspect- ing the institution!? A. Yes, sir. Q. There are no two othep cells like them? A. No, sir. Q. Are you sure that on the ground floor there are not two screen cells? A. Perfectly sure on the first gallery. Q. Those you are speaMng of are on the firist gallery? A. Yes. Q. There are none on the ground floor? A. None on the ground floor. Q. Aire there no dark cells on the ground floor? A. No. By Dr. Smith: Q: Are there not two cells north of those eight ceEsi? There are three reception cells^ but they are not dark; they are open to the light of the corridor there. Q. They don''t front a window? A. They front sideways and the windows are on the side like the windows sihihe in to this room; they are called reception cells. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You say that these tight board doors were made for the purpose of preTcnting the prisoners confined in those two cells from calling tb persons outside; what change has there been made with reference to the surroundings to make it unnecessarj- to close thoise tight doors now? A. No change in the surround- ings, but we have not happened to have a prisoner in there who has violated that rule or regulation so as to necessitaitle the using of the blind. Q. When, so far as you recollect, was the last prisoner con- fined in either of those two cells when the solid wooden door was closed? A. I have no recollection of their use at all; there may have been some time, but I have no recollection. Q. Are prisoners never placed in that cell except under your direction:, either of them, or are they sometimes placed there under the direction of the first and second superintendent? A. Every odl -vve have in the institution is occupied and more than occupied, so they might be used, the cells would be used as other cells are every day. 23 178 Q. I mean with, those doors closed? A. What is the question? Q. If the prisoners would be placed in those cells by the direotlon of the first and second superintendent? A. PriKoiiers would be placed in those cells the sianie ae they ar-e placed in any other for ordinary use. Q. Would the first and second superintendents have the right or authority to close those wooden dooirs if they saw fit? A. Yes; temporairily. Q. So they may have been closed without your laiowing it? A. Certainly, a short time. Q. Are these portable wooden doora which may be taken from one cell to another? A. Not now; there were a number of years ago, before we had the new wing. Q. How recen/tly have those been used? A. I couldn't state; not for yeans, that is as near as I could state it ; I don't recollect. Q. The first and second officer may have used them? A. No,, sir; I thinik there are none of thosie now in existence; I think there is not one of those now. Q. You refer, and there is a good deal said about the three reoejxtion cells that are upon the same floor with these solitaries; you may describe those? A. I think they are eight by twelve feet iron cells, with an open bar door, like tlhlfe doors in the cor- ridors; the ordinary cells; there are no ring bolts or blansi in them. Q. Is there any funniture in those? A. Only a bed; when we pul; a man in we ^ve him a bed ; nO' fumAtuTie. Q. What is that bed? A. Straw bed; aU oiuir beds aire straw; we use straw all over the place; ordinary bedsi as other men have in other cells. Q. These reception ceUs are used generally upon what occasions and for what purpose? A. They are used for the same ulse as I described the arrest, us© of thie iSeclusion ceUs; and more fre- quently when there is one man; if there are two or threie so thiey oonmmniciate it might be deaiiirable to place one around the other Slide of the partition; they ane used in case we kave an insane prisoner who distnorb® the corridors and had to be renooved at 'once to the asylum; they are used in case we receive a batch of filthy prisoners from a county jail so late at night they could not be cleansed; they are used when we make up a transfer at even- ing to go early morning; fill the whole place with them down there; we use just for the night until they are sent off aifter break- fast in the morning; .they are used for arrest, as I have previously stla.ted. Q. Is there anything about thesie ceUs that would make the impriisonment or conflnemenit any worse than in the ordinary ceUs in the prison? A. Except the isolation of them from the hum 179 amid life of itihje place which 'ihe cells in the othjer comdoira come in ooaitlajcit with, and! they aare noftJ so pleaiaamit; Hot so light as the othieirs. Q. Very mnidh will probaljly be said ia neferenice to another poom on paait of the priisoai called the bath^ioom? A. Yes^ sir. Q. "Whene is that located? A. It is located' in the southeast oomer of the soiuth' wing; isoiuth block, straight south' wing. Q. -Describe the room? A. The room' is about eightieen by twenty feet square, two windows, one opening on ithe lawn in front, the oither opening on the lawn on the south side; I should think it is fourteen feet high; it contains eight baths; iron b&,th- tuibis and a padiator foip wajrming it^ and' I Teraly iblelieYe nothing else. Q. These windows are coivered with the oirdinairy prison bars? A.' They have heavy iron grlaitingis. By Mr. Cnaig: Q. How high is the window sill from the pavement of 'the floor? A. I should think about six feet Q. This is not the general bath-room; it is the bath-room? A. Eieoepibion bath-room; where the pri^ners are reoeiv^, cleansed and clothed. By Judge GrUbert: Q. For what other purposie is that room sometimeei used? A. That is used for interviews of the geu'elial isiupeirintendent with reoaioitirant inmates whom he has ordleired in for admonition; for treatment. , Q. When you say ordered in for ti'eatmient what doi you mean by " treatment?" A. Left in their ordinairy room at noon, insifcead of bleing sent out to the iShops lat work with the othersi Q. What is the discipline or the method of treatmpnt which the iSiuperintend)ent adopts where inmiates aire brought into that room? A. First adtaonitibn, oral communication under the peculiar oircnmstances of the time and place, more impressive th'an ithe caisual admonition in th^ crowd; siecond, spanking where that is found necessary. Q. You slay ,spanking where found necesisary; w'hat, under the rules and regulations, would warrant or authoirize the adlministr'a- tdon of that punishment? A. The judgment of the general siuperintend'emt. Q. What violations of the rules usually lead up to that punish- ment? A. Any continuous disregaird of the regtulations from which the prisoner can not be re8nal instances a'cbrd is attaiched tia the gratinig with a snap hook in the end of it, and ithe main wouM. be handcuffed and the handcufPs attached to the snap; to expladhi that I should have to go in it asi I did before, or I would have to give answer to the other question, an explanation for 'the reason of it; I isimply state the fact now that is sometimeB' dome. Q. (Mr. Craig). I would like tO' get the proportion of oases atpproiximartjely? A. I should stay one per cient or two per cent; something like that. Q- Gould you presieniti the string or cord soi- as tO' shbw us the insitrumlent by which he was held up? A. It isl simply an o(rtliniary sash cord with a snap attlaiched to the end of it. Q. And about how lotng? A. They ane not radlsed from their feet usually; it is simply toi steady them. Q. You say they are not raalsied? A. In one or twx> instances they have been where the mam ooulidm't stand stUl on wioiuldn't stand istill, for a moment, just for a mioment; we never siuspendi a man as they do ih State prison; that piuniishimient iisi not iu uBe here; this is a part of the process of applyinig the spanking. Q. In connection with that isomletimeis is thei handcuff used? A. A mian must be handcuffed before he could bie attached, with the cord; the cord ia attached to the hamdcuiff. 182 Q. I wish, if you wiU, you will poxwiticie tihie cwd and -wltih. tiie hamdiouff, and show the comimittbee the mjaamep in which this is done? A. A sfoap hook would be hookied in therei (Showing haiDidcuffs.) Q. In itihe first place he is haiodciuffed, then the coard iB atta/ched to a link? A. Yest Q. And then fastened to the bar ajbonro? A. Yesi Q. So tha,t, neaUy, when he ils hung up he is suspendfed by Ms , wriistia, if art; aU? A. If he is suspended from the floor; you must not mdsnndenstaind me; when the coird' is attached the man is not pulled from the flooi'; uisuaUy he stand® on has' feet; as I stated, thjere have been inBtamces where for a moment I hiaive direeted the man to be raised. By Mr. Oradg: Q. You mean duiring the enitilre spaoikimg? A. Oh, nioi, sir; just for a moment or so. Q. How many such casies where they aire raised enrtSiriely from their feet witiiin your recollection? A. I can recall only twoi at this moment. By Judge Gilbert: Q. So .tliat the prisoner is not really suspendted by the cord; the cord bfeing attached to his wrist suispended in thalt way? A. No, sir. , Q. That isn't the wiay he is held; it is only by meamsi of the handcuffs ajid the cord? A. Yes. Q. Wheuever this suspension occursi you say it is only for a moment; how long a time? A. I jneresr took a watch and timed iit; my recolleotion is not more than one minute, as neaa* as I could srtiate it, Q. What insitrumetnts wetre used in ajdminiHtelring thisi punish- ment? A. The istrap wM'ch I showed the commissioners the other day. Q. Will you produce that? A. I think I can. By Mr. Oraig: Q. You handed out a key to a safe or some iteoepibacle for: the stnap; why do you keep it locked? A. I lacked up the stmp because I was informed that the gentleman who I mentioned oyer there was endeaToring to steal it, or get somiebody eisie to steal it. i Q. It hasn't been the history? A. No, it is left open; it is only now diMnig the etxoitement. ^ 183 MJr. Stanohfleld. — We can prove wlieire offers of $100 in monfey Ixave beem offered for this eitrap. We can demonaitrate it if we saw fit. Mr. White. — We would be glad to have you do so. Mr. Stanchfield. — There is no use of our having a war, there may comie a day when you and I will show our hand® in that con- troversy. We do mot purpOiSe to left the New York World come out-^ith an illustration of that isitrap. Mr. Oraig. — I did not know but it was to prevent the first and' second officer or isome officer from using it. (Strap is here produced.) (J. This is the injatrumemt which you use on those oooasioniS)? A. Yesi, mc. Q. This is the only instrument you have ever used? A. The only one I have now; there is amother, part of another thiat was used many years ago; smaller than that. Q, Have you th'at? A. I have it, yes; I haven't seen it myseiLf in some time. i Q. Win you please meaisiure the sitraip? A. One foot ten inches - long, and the handle ii& one foot two; the width is three inches; thje tMckniesB of it isi oooieHsisteenth; lesis than a quaartler. Q. Have you weighed this strap? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know how much it weighs, either wet or dry? A. Noi, is^^ Q. Have you any scales? A. There are some in the house; I could have it weighed if you wish it. Q. I wiisih the weight could be taken, handle and all, asi it is dry, and thien its weigihib, handle and all, when isoalkied? A. Yes^ sir;, Jlr. Hop.pe weigh it and then stick it in the water as I do^; it will soften at once; we never soak it. Q. You say you have no other instrument used for that pur- pose? A. There is one; it was used years ago (producing siamie); has not ^een used for many years. Q. YoTi may give the measurement of that? One foot six, the strap to the handle; two inches and a half ,wide; one-eighth thick. • Q. (Mr. Oraig.) Beveled edge? A. It is roiundedi oyer; tihe handle at present is seven in,ches long; it was probably twelve. Q. These two instJrumeflits are the only ones that you have ever known to bie used for the purpose of punishing or paddling? A. Yes, sir ; the only istraps that we ever used. " Q. Was thiere ever any othier inlstrumeniti used? A. Never habit- ually used; they are exceptiomally used, because it hasi been charged, I am so particular to mention it, th.e time this handle broke some years aigoi, fell down and broke off; it was rotten; I did uile on one or two occasions a piece of very light hose I found 184 there, rutober h,ose; not filled with water; a piece of old hose used to conduct water from serdoajs, peimDament injury; these little matters that I have desicribed to you sometimes occur, but there has been no case in the institution of injury to the spine or kidneys. Q. So far as you. know or, have been infoimed? A. So far as I Icnoiw and I would know; they would, be tireated if they were injuiied. Q. In the i)ersonal contact by means of the closed hand or flsit have you ever loosened lany teeth? A. No, sir; so fair aei I know;^ of course, all the istatements I give here are to the extent of my knowledge and the best of my belief, and I am very poisitive about ttat ibeoauise I am sure no blow I ever inflicted anywJhlare in the 191 vicinity of the teetti coiald! hiaTe any saich. result; exoeedinigly trifling and light Q. In meeting tlie convict ait tlue door and in the pneliminairy ti'eatanient either before it is determined wluetiher the spanking shall occur or not do yoiu make any use of exclamations and expletivesi? A. Yes; but not profanitiieis. Q. I was coming to that; have you ever used profane languaige? A. There iis la choice of adjectives for effectiveness; but I am not a profane mam. Q. Whait dJo you understamd by prof ame language ? A. The taking of the nam^e of God flippantly upon the tongue; I have said this is the extent of my use of vulgar 6r exceptiional expletives, as I said to a Tecent comipany of men Mho came in from New York after diescirilbinig to ithem the asinine conduct that had excluded them from free society and immured themi in a refoTmatory prison, 1 siaid to them that I have heard that there are fools and damn foolsi, what arie you, and they all with one accord exclaimed " damn fools." Q. t will remark that the criminal code defines profanity which is the taking the name of God, or Ohrist, or of the Holy Spirit in vain; I believe it is not defined by a statute or any law that the word damn is profane? A. 1 found the word damn exceedingly effective with oeirtain classes of people occasdionally ; I am not in the habit of using it. Q. What do you refer to? A. I am not in the habit of using the word damn; I use it oicoasionally, when it is the best adjec- tive for the purpose in hand. Q. How often do you find it 'the best? A. Very raj?ely; I don't remember when I said damn last; peAaps somebody around the place might. Q. You mean before this experience with the New York com- pany which lately came in? A. Oh, yesi, sir. ) Q. You speak of the spanking being made a matter of record, and you say the records will correctly indicate, if they are cor- rectly transcribed? A. I assume they are. Q. From what are they transcribed? A. Transcribed from my notes. Q. Are the notes in existence? A. Yes, sir'. Q. They are now on file m the original memoranda? A. The original memoranda. Q. When are those memoranda made? A. Made immediately after ; on the siame day. Q. Not oni the very oocaslon? A. Do you' mean my notes? Q. Yes? A. On the very occasiouu Q. In 'the bath-room? A. Yes. 192 Q. In the presence of the prisoner? A. In the presence of IJhe other officers. Q. Is the attention of the other officer called to it? A. Not specially. Q. They wouldn't be witnesses to the correctness of the meinoi- randa as original notes? A. No; you will have to, I suppose, accept the accuracy of the superintendent's) record. Q. These records or transmitted records are contained in one of the books iu evidence? A. In all the b^oks, in a number of the books. Q. That were put in evidence at the last hearing? A. Yes. Q. Designate the books? A. The conduct ledgers, a dozen or more. Q. There was one conduct ledger as an example of the other conduct ledgers? A. Wa.s shown here. Q. fe there any other book in which those punishments are transcribed? A. They are transcribed on the page of the con- duct ledger as hotel clerks put doiwni fire and wine on the face of a hotel register. Q. What are the facts which are recorded, the number of blows? A. Yes, sir. Q. The severity of the blows? A. Oh, no; there isn't any possible way to indicate that. Q. Personal equation would come in there that you couldn't determine? A. Couldn't determinie. Q. Are the directions as to the turning of the face or placing of the hands entered? A. Noi. Q. Are any blows upon the face or upon the head designated on the face of the record asi blows on the head? A. Noi; they are included in the number recorded. Q. So that if a patient received nine blows from the strap and two over the head it would be entered eleven? A. Yes, sir. Q. I want to ask as to the means that are employed toi reduce a refractory comict to submit to the blows? A. In the bath-room? Q. Yes, sir? A. If a man resists he w overcome in the same way that a policeman would overcome a resisting man whom he desired to arrest, with this difference, that when the point in , the contest is reached by my asisistant where the policeman woiuld be justified in using his club the assistant might use his' closed hand. Q. How severe would be the blow? A. It Would be difficult to tell. 1 Q. Be severe enough to knock the patient down? A. No; they are usually inflicted during the scrinimaige on the floor; I never saw a man knocked down; they clinch and down th^y go. 193 Q. How many officers, whose duty it is to reduce the paitient to submission, are present? A. .Two. Q. Could not two reduce the patienit without clinching and throwing him on the floor? A. No; I don't think soj when a man finds there is no opportunity for argument after the fight beguiB. Q. When would the blow frbm the closed fisit of the officer be given ? A. WMle the patient is' on the floor, usually. Q. There are two oflicers there ? A. Two offieersi there always. Q. The rule is, I suppose, that where there are a sufficient niunber of officers to reduce a refractory person whom they are ti'ying to put under aiTest, sufficient number to control the man withouit hitting him with the club or fist, that they should refrain from such blows ? A. That, is an excellent rule, and should be obser-rod; and the blows inflicted upon a man when down with the closed hand are not by the direction or with the approval or permission of the superintendent, but they spring up in the strimmage; they come before you are aware of it, and they are not very censurable, if nqt inflicting anj injury in s.uch exigen- cies; they often result in the submission of the prisoner, and less' of struggle and perhaps of injurj' would occur otherwise; I call off that thing always, " Don't hit or strUve the man." Q. What are the blows delivered in such cases ? A. Anywhere. Q. In the face or on the head ? A. The face and head. Q. The eye ? A. Anywhere. Q. Nose and mouth ? A. Anywhere. Q. Teeth might be knocked out ? A. It is posisible a man's head might be injured seriously, but no case of that kind has ever occurred. Q. Do yooi know of any case where teeth have been knocked out ? A. I do not. Q. How many blows have been delivered on such an ocfcasion ? A. I do not know. Q. As many as five ? A. I am unable to state; I should think so. Q. To the patient on the floor ? A. At different times. • Q. I mean to the same patient on the same occasion ? A. At different points in the struggle, possibly as many as five. Q. While the patient is on the floor ? A. While the' patien,t is or. and up and about, floundering. Q. How many such cases are there approximately in proportion to the whole number of cases that are spanked "^ A. I should say about one-fifth of one per cent. Q. That is, those who receive blows from the officers on, the floor ? A. Yes, sir. 25 194 Q. How many are reduced to submission by tbe interference of these officers who are in attendance ? A. I don't know of ajny- thing beyond what I have given you- Q. About one-fifth of one per cent ? A. One-fifth of one per cent would be the number of men that require the interference of an officer; sometimes they would get a blow, and frequently not. Q. You ga^e nine cases during the last year in which the ordi- BUTy maximum of twelve blows wais exceeded by one or more blo^s'S ? A. One or two. Q. And one case where the maximum of twenty-four blows; how many cases during the last ten years have there been the maxi- mum of twenty-four blows ? A. I should think I could count them on the fingers of my two hands; the records would show, by going through them. Q. How many within the last three years ? A. I don't know any other now; there may be another one. Q. In the last year ? A. There may be another, but I don't recall another within three years ; I wouldn't be very likely to remember that and be able to call it up; I only know there are none, or nearly none. By Dr. Smith: Q. Did you always have some one person ini the bath-room? A. Y(^ ; the re_ason for it is some officer must bring in the man. (i. Has there ever been an instance where tiie punishment has been inflicted without some persion by ? A. Not in this institution. Q. Have any of those cases after punislhinent been examined by the physician of the institution? A. There has been one case where the physician was called, and' that is the only one I recol- lect; not. called because of an injury the prisoner received, from me or from the officer, but after five spats, which I remember very -well, because it alarmed me very much, he, like a passionate child, threw himself at full length over on the marble floor, and for a moment we were alarmed about him; in that case the physician was called, but said it was a matter of no conisequenca Q. Did he strike on his head? A. Struck on the back of his head; it wasn't anything I did to him or the injuries he received from the application of the spats., Q. Have any been sent to the hospital after the punishment? A. I think not; I don't know of any instance unlesis it was this man; T am not sure whether this man was taken to the hospital or taken to the reception-room; I think neither; I think the hos- pital nurse was called to him; he might have been) taken to the hospital afterward. 196 Q. Yoii doo't inflict this as a punishmemt; tlhey don't go to the bath-room for punishmenit, but yott get a certain mental effect? A. Yes. Q. What number are affected, withoiut punishment, by meeting you there and talking with them? A. I can give you a very accurate statement about that; out of 552,145; that is a yery accurate atatement; I happen to have those figures in my raind this moment; were admoniehed and dismissed without the appli- cation. , Q. It isn't an uncommon thing that after ^dmoniBhing them and talking with them you proceed to punishment and don't punish because you get the memtal effect you aa^e looking for? A. . Something lUie sixteen or seventeen' per cent of the whole number that I interview that are thus dismissed. By Mr. Litchfield: ; Q. Is the physician of the reformatory ever present at these spankings? A. Np, sir; there never has been any occasion for it. Q. After the prisoner has been spanked once and it becomes necessary to spank him the second time^ how soon does the second spanking occur after the first? A. When you come to the formu- lated charges, I have there taken off the whole course of treat- ment for each man and that will reveal itself; usually long periods; in some instances- a few days; not the same day. Q. Ne\'er within forty-eight hours? A. No; it is some new occasion for it must arise; this ha® been done, however, where the application of twelve spats have failed to effect; a man has been put away until the next day and brought down again at noon, when usually nothing, sometimes a very slight castigation accomplisihes the rasult; I have in mind a very definite idea as to that, practice; a case a few months ago of mutinous conduct on the part of a man about the time the newspapers began to pub- lish this stuff on uis, who lead sis others; after long conversation with hi!m, in which I couldn't induce him to agree to go back and da the square thing, I spanked him with twelve spats; when I had reached my usual limit he said he would return if the others would; if I would bring in the othensi and get them to say they would go back he would] ^o; I put him away over in the reception-room or in the seclusion until the next day at noon, when T brought him up and he made the same stiatement, to which I replied: "We had no coooference of inisiuiPgents here; we treat our men one at a time and unless you can now, in the exercise of your good sense, come around to our view of the matter and let us run the place and you do the best 196 jou can in your place in it, I shflil hart'e to treiait ymi again as I did yesitei'diay;"' on refusing he went oTer to tlie window and took two spats, put out Ms hand to me and we sh.ook bandsi; he hjas been a good man since; that is about the wlay of it. Q. So that man was spanljed twiloe in tihe twenty-four houra; received two spats on the sfame place wh.te!rei he was spanked the day before? A. Yes. Q. It has occurred in that case, has it occmred in either instances in twenrty-fonr hours? A. I don't reooilleot any other now. Q. Have you ever 8l\'en any moire than two spats? A. Yes; I should proceed on the second day if it was neoesBiary up to miy limit. Q. Twelve spats in some cases and twenty-fouir in others? A. Twelve spats on one application. Q. If necessiairy would it be continued the third day? A. I have never done that ; I never reached that. Q. Doing it the second time has always been snocesisful? A. Isiially been, successful; a man visually changes after the applica- tion first. By Mr. Oraag: I Q. You speak of mutinous conidlict lead by this man and you s]»oke in connection -n-ith thalt of tihe cihairges publiteihed; did you h;ive evidence that thosie imsiurgenita fcniew of tihosie charges? A. l*he stupidity of a foreman in tihe piiiuting office losit a newspaper about, the beginning of tliis land we could trace the leffectls which we reasomably attributed to that; as wie couldn't tartitnilbuitie to any- thing else here and tihea-e and 'there amd there; tihe statemjente I make that it was attributable to that cause is made without having any m^an slafyinig I have read a paper, therefore, I will do so and so, but we seemed to discover the linieS of diversion from the printing office, one place and another, and mme dUfleulliieis of that kind occniTed at that time; it is quite possible that tlie neoessit}' for reduicing the population by the transifei' to tihe State prisonja miay lead somie men who are not making good progriess here, wlio belong to the convict clasia, who want the good time abatement of the State priision and the tobacco and the railroad lide to qualify by conduct of that sort; but it is 'the conduct I was speaking about. Q. Wer'e Ms associates pundislhed in any wiay? A. To go into that whole ease, thea-e wei^e six; twoi of them re^emiislted' imme- diatcly, two wi'w spanked, perhaps tM'ee re-enlisted and one claim- ing to be unahle to d^ the work in the foundry wais put over until the physician made a careful examdamtion of Mm the next da^ and then was spanked ligiMly and went baick to work. 197 Q. What were the mutiDJOiuisi acts? A. At tike poiuritig off ifaiour in the grade foimdiry wihetnj the tot iroii togins to come down, yvhesa this isecitiom of m^en were oalleid, (tjhie six men] put on their coats and refuiseid to take amy iron. Q. Any attempts to take any instrument ? A. No; they were mapcihed in. Q. Haye you ihad any otlhler acts of mutiny .sdinc© the puiblioatioai of these charges? A. No ovent acts; we dflsicoiV'ereid seditiouis com- maimilca'tioinis and puipoises of inisrarenictiO'n with a lot of men wMcih didn't come to a head becaiuse we discotYered it. Q. Wliat were thie mutinious acts wMichi yon diaooiv^red were threatened by these orttai". men? A. There was a Avritten pledge signed; ithis was a written pledge that tihioise isdx men hiad; I found it in the po'ssesBiioin of the man whose treiatnueintt ■ I haye been describing to yon; the other I don't remeonbeir whethiei' we found the wirittten pledge or wheitiher it was commnnioated by half a dozen men when they were brought up about it; twenty -six men pr&posed to l^efuise to pour otf, and one of them proposed to dis- able tlie steam fire engine, wliich is opposite the foundry, bum ' the bams, and then, with such others sus they could get, to make an effoi'i to escape; this A\'as the plan; now let nie say, since I haye stated to you frankly and fully about this plan, that not too much importance should be attached toi such schemes in prison ; they rarely ever come to a head; you put one convict, one man of the convict class, in among others, and he will work those things; usually given away by some of the other men, and veiy frequently without a serious settled purpose on the part of the man himself, only to distinguish himself as a smart convict, who knows how those things are done;' not to^ much importance should be attached to those schemes that never comc^ to a head. Q. What was done with this other batch ? A. They were sent away at that time, fifty, to reduce the population, and we sent away quite a number of them; some others that I did not feel it. best to send away on our own account ought not to go; we selected the hardest and most incomgible of that lot and put them in a gang of fifty; some others were persuaded, and others were placed temporarily on the rest cure, until they could get over the mood ; I think none of those men ^^ea-e treated at all in the bath-room. Q. How many were sent a^ ay to prison, of these ? A. I can find the names. Q. Find the names and give them to us ? A. Yes. Q. What prison were they sent to ? A. Auburn. Q. What reasons, if any, did they assign fop refusing to work ? A. They did not refuse to work; they proposed to refuse to work. Q. If their scheme — A. The first proposition, was to go before 198 the managers; thev were almost all of the red grade, and a«k for the dietary of a better giude; that was one of the first proposi- tions; that was very early abandoned; they didn't care for that; anything that would form a pretext for a revolt, il doesn't make much difference what its effect, and the next proposition was the one that I have described to you, by this negro^ in which lie and two or three others, that they might effect their escape, but the great mass of the twenty-six probably not very serious. Q. Of the six; who actually refused to work on the other occa- ,sion, were there any who gave any reason for their refusing ? A. " I can't get along herej^ I will have to go to State prison." Q. Did thtey say this ? A. One of these men said, " We can't get along." ' Q. What was the name of the man you paddled twice for this ? A. I will give you his name; Connelly, I thtii|i, or Connors; I will give you the man. Q. The names of all the others of his associates and the names of the other company who were sent to the State prison. ? A. Ye&, sir; you shall have them all. By Judge GUbert: Q. Upon those occasions when yo.u were punishing the convicts in the bath-room, did any of them ujKyn any occasion faint ? A. Not to my knowledge; I don't remember it. Q. Tliese occasions when yon say the convict was thrown to the floor ? A. Threw himself to the floor; the newspapers will siay he was thrown to the floor by the .superintendent; that is not so; he threw himself to the floor. Q. He was, tjien, resisting ? A. 'No, sir. Q. You refer to the case when the man was being punished ? A. Yes. Q. I refer to those cases where the attendants threw the inmates to the floor — were those cases where the inmate was resisting ? A. Yes, sir Q. Was the treatment he received, or they received, necessary ia order to subdue him ? A. It ^^as, in my judgment, except the_\ might have exceeded technically an exact line of necessity iH the -excitement of the scrimmage; I am careful to make my state- ment as near accurate as possible. Q. You referred to one case where the inmate, whUe being pad- dled or spanlied, assumed the attitude of virtually saying, " Why, I wUl take all you will give;" now, in applying upon that occa^ sion, and upon all occasions, the first blow you give, is it a moder- at<' blow ? A. The term is an indefinite one; a moderate blow, yes, and yet it is intended to produce effect. 199 Q. Is it intended to be of sufficient force so hei will feel it ? A. Yeei, sir. Q. As you proceed, and yon find that an inmate does not give in or show indications that the reformatory process has com- menced, is additional force given to the blow ? A. No; the appli- cation is substantially the same one by one; one good, sharp spaA at the beginning sometimes saves many. Q. In tlie case 'Where the inmate showed by his bearing and all that he didn't propose to give in^ do you mean to say the twelfth blow was no haa'dea- than the first ? A. There isn't a gi'aduation of the strength of the application. Q. You mean to say that, no matter what the beaiing or con- duct of the prisoner may be, you don''t allow that to affect your bearing toward the prisoner ? A. Not at aU. Q. Yon think you have siuch a complete con.trol over^your tem- per or passions that you can safely say that the last blow was no heavier than the first upon an occasion of that Mn^ ? A. Yes; the man who has ajiy feeling springing up with the exercise of this means of discipline should not exercise it at all ; any one who feels stirring within him^ the feeling that you deserve should be excluded from the use of this treatment forever and always; per- mit me to say I am entirely beyond and above that, if I knowl myself. Q. That is, in other words, you never allow a punishment to be inflicted when, you are at all jn passion ? A. I am not in passion. - Q. Never ? A. Never; yon have now, by the use of the word "passion," and by the line of \'our questions, made it necessary for me to recur to the« admonitions, in which, without feeling pas- sion or any desire to hurt or any retaliatory se'Dsation at all, I do for the effect upon a man, often assume that of anger, as I appear to the man; what I wish to say, that I can not recall, since the earliest day, foolish days of my prison life, any feeling or disposi- tion to in.flict a retaliatory blow or penalty of any sort, any dis- position to hurt any man; if you will allow me to make a stUl further statement, as I don't intend to recur to myself again, I will isay, as far as I know, on oath, I -have never inflicted upon any prisoner, or pennitted, when I could prevent it from being inflicted upon any prisoner, any treatment that I wouldn't desire to have inflicted upon the same man under the same circumj- stances by an officer similar to myself, if he was my brother, the son of my mother; in.deed, 1 say on oath, that I would be indig- nant, and deem that man recreant to his duty, if he did not do precisely what I have done t» rescue my man; I make that states ment without mental reservation. 200 Q. So tkat, in fact, whenever you kave ap^^ared to prisoners as in a passioii, it is only in appearance, and your i>assionsi Were not excited, in fact ? A. A prisoner usually over-eBtimates the treatment h.e receives; the largest possible impression with, the smallesit possible effort is the idea. By Mr. Oraig: i Q. Do you ever purposely allow aj prisonier to receive the unpres- sion that you are angry or indignant? A. Oh, yasi, sar. Q. If, as a matter oif fact, it is beititelP that you should not be angry or indignant when you apply the treatment^ why is it any better that the patient sihould believe you 'are not angry or indig- nant? A. The mamifesitatioin of anger, the dramatic angry act is never in the application of the strap ; it isi always at the admoni- tion point of the treatment; different men should be impressed differently; the soft, pleading, gentle tones sometimes bring an exjjresision of tendetrnesis on the face, of a man and for those men that is used; then there are others who temporarily need to feel til at that is a dreadful place; they don't care to come down again; but in my intercourse with the men ajfterwards and about the place there is none of it; they come to me at interview very oft^en, the very next evening or the same weelc, and we have a pleajsant, friendly and social chat about the matters iconstituting the pur- pose for which they come up; the leaving of the prisoner, you say, with the im])ression that I am angry with him, dioies not sieem to me to be a matter of very gi-eat importance, or if it is matter of importancje, it is a salutary way for a particular individlual to leave me, because he knows, and everybody knows, about the place, that there is nothing in the disposition and tempei' of the general superintendent that would in' any way prejudice his pro- gi'ess or do him any injury; that is' generally understood. Q. You mean aifter the punishment? A. YesL ' Q. But the question was whether the importance should not ooiTespond with the reality for the best effect upon the prisoner's mind? A. I see the line of your thought, but it is possible it may be impracticable to- explain; I see my flrsit officer in con- veiisatioH with a man who is now making one statement, and in the next breath another exactly contradictory; he calls his attention to the dlsicrepancy of statemente over and oveii, over and over and over, and by that marvelous and wonderful instinct of siome of these men he seems to be unable to get from him a definite, serious^ clear answer; now, I come along and say^ in explosive tones: "Why don't you answer him?" he will answer him inunieldiately, and give a correct answer, and they will go on with the rest of the examination; some such effect as that is 201 wroiuglit an tiie mind of a man by Trhat you denominate as ibe appearance of anger, wihicli is scaiPoely thaU; it is inidgnatiom; one of thie men said the other day to Profeesoir Monea, "Yon get along all rigM with the old man unleiss yon lie and then| it is a cyclone; " ^tihat] is the impresBiom he had; thait] is a good impres- sion ito get. Ml'. Oaig. — That is all. We will now take a recess until a quarter after 2. Recess. AFTERNOON SESSION Zebulom R. BpoiokwaQr recalled: Exaimination conitdmued by Judge Grilbenfc: Q. How many gmdes arei the inmialteis of thtei reformatory divided into? A. PractacaUy three, theoretically forar. Q. When a convict is received into the reformato(ry in which grade is he usiually plajoed? A. AJwaysi into the intamiediajte of the three grades when first received. Q. Before being reoeivedi inta either grade is he interviewed by yofu in the mammeir you have indicated? A. Yea Q. That iai, queistiomed with reference to hiis history, etc. ? A. He is washed and cleansed anid the clothinig of the ihteimiediatie grade is placed upon TiiTn and his meastuipement taken andl property disi- posieid of before he is brought to me; to my glUJalrd^noonl floor office. Q. What is the garflW of the ihtiermiedjiaite grade? A. Black coat and vest with gray panitlSL Q. What are some of the leading priiviiieiges wMch he, in that grade, poteessies in distSnctiion' from the otheirsl? A. The inter- mediate grade in which he is receivied supplies iiim vdth the clothing I have named in distinictitan fromi the oltothing of the other grades, vpM'ch I will desciribe in lai moment. Q. Sim.ply answer in reference to this gradte, then I wUl ask in referemce to the others? A. He hasi a room or cell with sheets, slippers and chair; he is privileged to have a cairpet if his' friend's send it to him; that is the only thing we do admit; he has Ms meals in hiis roiomi, land he is isnppliled vrith tea and ooffee vrath his meajls; he has the privilege of conrespondence accoorded that grade, which is less than the upper flnst grade and mtoi'e than in the convict grade. Q. Desciribe a little more minuteltf the privilege of corre- spondtenioe? A. We have come dovpn to omie letter out and one letter in^, every two mionths, ail letterls being from father, mother, 26 202 brotliieR, sisitter, wife, unl^s- tthere is somue domestite situation or some busamess mattter that requireg an extra privilege; the geinieipal iTjle of this grade is one letter out and one letter in foirl eaicli momth, and all lettens are i-eatricted to the immediate meunbeiris of the faanily. Q. What reading ils he peinnitited to hajv©? A. All grades aire supplied with books fnom the Ubrary. Q. With reference to his fare oir artides of food? A. Has the same comsitituenjtS' of the rations which aire supplied the other grades, sabstontially the same; the upper first grade has some- thing more, and he has tea and coffee, which the red grade or new second grMe men are depHiTed of. Q. I think, perhaps, it would be as well for you to istate what the faoie is? A. It changes a good deal; I wUl give you fuller rnfiorma- tion about that; the reguliair ration of meat and vegeitlables im' breakfast and dlmier served twice a day isi supplied mem in this gTade, and any additional food they require is supplied with bread and that aJone; they itake the meat ration and' vegetable raltioin that is dished out, the tea anjd coffee is cairied around and poured into their cups through the door, and they are supplied with bread as much as they please. Q. This grade take their food in ceHs? A. Ini roomis; yesi, sir. Q. Are the cells occupied' by this grade isimilar to the celis that are occupied by the other grade? A. They aie the same eaae; the difference in furnishing is that that lower grade have a bed and blanket without sheets. Q. From this grade how aire the inmatesi, or in what manner are the inmates transferred to the other grades^, and what are the othei- grades? A. There is one lower grade and one upper grade. Q. The upper grade is called what? A. Upper flrsifc grade, the intermediate grade or lower first grade, land the low grade or second grade; there is theoretically a third grade. Q. Speaking of the lowest grade, the term second grade is usually used ? A. Yes, sir. (}. Speaking of the highest grade, the upper first grade iS nsnally used ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Thtei convicts from the intermediate are advanced, or they are lowered, according to the marks \^■hich they receive ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who generally makes this scale of marks ? A. That is, who determines the transfers ? Q. Yes. A. The general superintendent, always. Q. The superintendent determines the question whether the inmate shall be advanced or not, or whether he shall be put into the lowest grade or not ? A. Yes, sir. 203 • / / Q. What I mean is, who is it that furnishes the evidence or the marks upon which this change is based ? A. You will have to oblige me with quite an extended statement. Q. I don't wish to talte up very much time. A. I could only possibly explain that by going into the whole marking system. Q. I will withdraw that quastioni for a moment; as they improve they ai'e advanced to the first grade ? A. Yes, Q. If they show they are retrograding insitead of improving, they go into the lower grade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are these punishments which you have referred to usually in cases where the prisoner has been in the lowest grade ? A. He must be in the lowest grade in order to receive corporal pTinishment. Q. ThiOse in the intermediate or first grade are nevei' subjected to the piuuisihment you refer to ? A. No, sir. Q. There are men employed at different kinds of employment in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir; quite a variety. Q. What are the leading industries ? A. The largest industry we have, and well nigh the only one that results in any coni- sidei^able earnings, is the foundiy and hardware department; speaking roughly, about 125 molders, and perhaps < 125 in. the hardwiaire flnishimg dlegaartmiemit'; I caiui give yoiu tihoisie figuires exactly. Q. What is the next prominent industrj' ? A. The manu- facture of clothing, up to the middle of September, when, owiQg to the dullness in the trade, it was discontinued temporarily, took the largest number of men, in the neighborhood of 200; the manu- facture of umbrellas employed, until the stringency and dull times, sixty-five to seventy, perhaps seven.ty men; the manufacture of fumiturte, fine tables, a hundred men in there when running full; the nianufacture of pipes, uipbrella sticks, we oaJl it, the wood- turning novelty department, I think thirty or thirty-five men are there now; then cane chair seats, Ave were employing a hundred men at ^ntU we closed, and somethiag like twenty-five or thirty men were engaged in closing out our cabinet business, which had been substituted by this table or furniture business, of which I have just spoken, employing a himdred men; then we had most of our own mechanical repair work, carpenters; I have a complete list of the distribution of the population eveiy day; we have a munber of men enlarging the reservoir outside; we employ ten to twenty-five men on the farm and lawns, etc.; the domestic department, cooking and laundry work, tailor-shop, shoe-shop, all absorb a good many men, and something like a hundred men. are witlidrawni from syisteAatic industry as defective!, pJijylsieaily, mentally or very seriously, moral defectives, and are turned over 204 to the physical training depai'tment or our large gymnasium, where ther are put through exercises and baths and treatment under the direction of a phyisician, and a competent instructor in that depai'tment; that is a rough outline. Q. So that the initentidn is to give employment of some kind to all that are physitoally able toi perform service? A. The whole, prison population has always, in the history of the institution, been actively engaged, except for brief periods like the last month, when I had thiiee oir ftrar hundred men idle. (>. In the foundSry department what are tbe number of hours that each iimiate is required to sei've? A. Eight is the maxi- mum, eight hours a day. ; Q. Is there any fixed amount of work which (hey mnsit per- form? A. Oh, yes; inmates are tasked wherever ttie industry will enable it. mean to say that in all the vajriousi employmenits that eight hours constituted a day? A. Eight hourisi is the maximum of a day's work. By Di'. Smith: Q. There are t\\ o uppei- grades? A. The upper first, the lower first and the second constitute the three. Q. There are four gradas? A. Fonr grades theoretically, thl^ee practically. Q. I thought there were five practically? A. Only three praxrtd- cally. , Q. 'WTiat is y(ym' four theoretically? A. That is the third grade. Q. I thought yoia said an upper first? A. Yes; I divide the first grade in two departments; I will give you the reason for tliat wliicli will make it perfectly clear to^ your mind; at the enactment of the statute of 1889 the superintendent of prisons -was directed to divide the prisoners of State prisons in three grades, and it was held by the Attoimey-General that in the matter of labor we were included first grade, second grade and third grade, and the statute provided that the first grade migiht be employed at instructive labor, the learning of trades, fitting them to earn an honest and satisfactory living aftter thev were released, without regard to income; we corresponded with the Attorney-Cieneral then, and took the ground that aU our men in this prison belonged in the first grade, which would enable us' to 205 v, takfl up IJie matter of imstruction. in t'radies, as; we never had been able to do ; be replied! in Hiubstance that it was bairdlyi possible to clalssify all tlie inmates of the reformatoiy, already divided into three gi'ades, firsit, second and tbird, as tbe terminology ^am at tha t time into the first grade, but we had a perfect right,' under the 'Statute, to name our grade whatever wd pleased, amd it was ui>on that suggestion of the Abtorney-Greneral tha* we put these two upper grades intoi the first grade and subflivided' them for the piirpose of beeping up the old actual distinction in adminis- tration. By Mr. Oradg: ' V, Q. One ais to labor and two as' to general discipline? A. Yes, sir. By Judge Grilbert: Q. I am requeisifed to asik, the fact of a mam entered in the upper first grade or lower first grade, does not insure him against physical punishmenit? A. Oh, yes; physical punishments are only applied in the lowest grade. Q. If the superdnitendent want's to paddle an upper grade man hei reduces him and paddles him si'multanefoueily? A. The two things may 'Come A-ery near together; he is reduced! in grade and after- wards is in that grade; he is declaired in Ihe second grade. Q. He m not to be punished until his conduct is such that under the rules and regulations of the reformaitory he should! be reduced to the gecond grade? A. Th the second grade. Q. Upon ithe occuiifence of a punisihmKmt he is reduced to that gradle? A. Yes. Q. By gxDod coriidaift muisrt riaiise himsielf to the middle and the flriiit grade? A. Yes, sir. , • By Mr; Ci'aig: Q. What propomtioini of thoise whlo enlter the lower first grade rise to the upper first grnde withoutl going down tOi the second grade? A. I am unable to answer that — peirhiapBi your intent Avill be realized when I sitiate the usual ratio now of men in the lowest gnade ils about thirty per cent; a, few of those may fall fnom the upper first griade; but mainly they go from the inter- mediatie grade; rarely, does a man go down to the red grade from the uppei- grade except for some specific, sei-ious offense. Q. I hiave a question suggestied' to me, whetlher I have designated the three grades properly; upper fiirat grade, lower first grade and the second grade, those constitute the thiriee; grades for discipline and two grades for labtoir'? A. YesL Q. That would make about twot-thirds who entea-ed the lower fl*st grade who do rise to thie finstt grade witJiouit being reduced to 206 tihe second grade? A. That would appear' from '&ue etatemient of thaurtj' per oenit Q. Yoiur isecond grade is the convict grade, is it not? A. Yes. Q. Your second gnaidte' in name, but third graide in fajct? A. The old third graide. Q. That is the convict gradfe as. you designate it? A. Yesi. Q. What is the fourth grade ta thieory? A. These mien Mvha< aa-e confined in the rest cur© for some weete would he in thati graxile when we establiahed it; I estahlisted it with the aoncurremce of the majiagers; we intended if any m,am was put aside in Msi room and relieved from the activities and disicipiinie of the house tem- porarily, put aside for some considei^'aible time, he should be denominated in the ithird grade; but in annual praiOtitee there is s'lch a trifling amount of that tliey have practically abandoned thait in our books and the third grade does not appear there; he is simply in the second grade; in rest cure: Q. There is no one in the rest cure who dOesi not belong to the second grade ? A.I don.'t know that there is. Q. Is there ever? A. Hardly; I don't remember a case; it is possible a man may be put there temporairily ftor a few days. Q. There is no minimum by statute as to the length of time of service there? A. No, sir. Q. Is there a mindmium eiatablished by tdie by-laws ? A. There is. Q. What is that minimum? A. One year. Q. So a man ha® to be Mx months in the lower second grade before he rises to the upper first; and six months there? A. Yes. Q. That is the minimum of the time in the institution? A. Yes. Q. Is the statutory maximum which the coui't could have fixed in a sentence to State prison? A. C5oiirect. Q. What proportion of your inmates iSea-ve the mlaximimi of this sicatuitory term? A. I think the report, would show. Q. Last year's report? A. I thiinlc so; a Tery smiall number. Q. I would like tO' get it on the record. Q. TSTiat proportion iSeiwe the minimum of the term laisisii'gned by the by-laws ? A. What proportion go out at the expiration of one year? Q. Yesi? A. Out of 4,193 released up to the date of this report, indefinite sentenced prisoners^ 244 remainied foir the full raaximnm term : the maximum term, as you know, is frequently, too frequently, two and a half years, anid I suppose a vers' large praportion of that 244 were the two and a half year men; in actual administration it is foun.d that a two and a half year maximum does not constitute a sufficient motive for a man to voluntarily exert, himself, irksomely, sometimes painfully, to overcome his habits, so that that is about five per cent; now, you , 207 ask me what proportion of these meu go out at the end of a year, or very soon after; there is a table there which will give you that fact; here is a table that shows the ratio of progress as to relea^d prisoners on parole for only twelve months, 7.6 per cent. Q. You have given a proportion here as to the minimum, here you gave the actual number as to the maximum, as to the per- centage relating to the minimum ; I would ask whether that per- centage is as to the whole number of prisoners or whole number dischairged ? A. The whole number paroled. Q. Not the whole number received ? A. No. Q. Can you have that figured out ? A. Yes. Q. What proportion, or what numb,er, of prisooiers to State prisons ? A. We show that there in that table. ' Mr. Stanchfleld. — I would like to spread that on the recoi'd. Q. I want to get at the point now, when you give the propor- tion, whether it is the proportioD. of the whole number discharged only or of the whole number received ? A. In. answer to tlie question what proportion of men transferred to the State prison should, to be rightly understood, be accompanied with a statement of the purpose for which they are transferred. Q. I think, in going over these general points for facts, we wish to receive - explanations in a concise way as we go along; I will ask first that question which yoii have not answered directly, as I have understood, and that is, whether the proportion of the men sent out on parole after twelve months, the minimum term, is the proportion of the whole number of prisoners discharged or thi' propoi'tio'n of the whole number of prisoners received ? ^V. The percentage I gave ;\ou was the proportion of prisoners discharged by i>arole. Q. 'Smv, ns to the v^hole numbep received; what would be the distinction between the whole number of prisouens discharged after parole and the whole number of prisoners received, what would be the elements that would come in there; first would be those sent to State prison ? A. You are confusing (beg your pardon) the term "discharged"' with the terra "parole;" the dis- charge occurs after a period on parole; the number paroled are men who leave the enclosure and go out, and that is the class of prisoners upon which this percentage is computed ; the difference between the number of men paroled and the number discharged ffom the encloisure consists in the fact that some men serve out tlieir maximum expiration, some are transferred to State prison and to the asylum, some die; I think that covera it; some escape. Q. You gaA^e the propoirtion of those who are paroled; what is the proportion of those who are discharged, including those who 208 are pai-oled, then we will get tlie proportion as to the whole num- ber received in that way ? A. Mr. Hoppe will figure that out. Q. Will you give us the projjortion of those who are ti'amisi- f erred to State prison ? A. Certainly; in answer to that ques- tion I asked to explain; the explanation is that the number of ti-amsfers to State prison is almost entirely governed by the over- crowded condition of our institution, so thait the nunibei" trams- fenced to State prison, if your object is to ascertain what per^ centage of the prisoners is incorrigible, wouldn't be coiTect data to estimate that fact; we transfer becausie we ape overcrowded, and, of course, select those who ai'e least tractable men for ^'h«se eao-ly release by parole reformation there is the last hope be re+ransferred while this institution remains crowded ? A. The remark I would not transfer if there was room was not intended to communicate the thought that the men are unfit for transfer, that they are eus- 27 210 coptible subjects, but this is what I had in, mind, the influ^ce upon those who remain of transfer is bad, and the ideal establish- ment is where the three grades are detained within the same institution or under the same administration, so that if I could have it just as I wanted it, \\ith room enough, I would retain these men -who are so fit to be transferred in our estimation until the expiration of their maximum, or until they should improve and earn their way out. i Q. I understood, of course, they were less susceptible to improve- ment than those who are retained, and aA the same time it occurred to me it might be well contended that it is for the benefit of the average inmate here that those transfers should be made in order to avoid the crowded condition, mitigate the effect of it; at tlie same time it seems to me that for the persons transferred there may be great injusitice under that system, and on this ground that a man whose maximum tei-m by the statute is ten years, might by the court, if not committed here, have been senteuoed to the State prison for less than, the maximum term, but having been committed here, with the prospect that he would be discharged; during the maximum term. He is transferred to the Slate prison, and is there held for the maximum term, less the abatement by good conduct. A. Allow me to make twoi states ments; in the first place, the statute defines what men may be transferred; they must be apparently incorrigible or insane; then they are sent to the insane a.s\lum, or shown to have been con- \'icted of felony previously and served in pri*»on, or be over age, so that there is a limitation, a .statutory limriation, upon the dis- cretion of the managers to tran.sfer, from which I aver it is alto- gether improbable that susceptible prisoners would be transi- feri'ed under that general provision of the hiw, and with our knoAvledge of them, so great injustice would be done them in that respect; then your remark near the close of your statement brin.gs in to the treatment of prisoners, reformatory prisoners, an element that does not exist, under the law, and that is the fitting penalty to crime; you say a man might stny in a. state prison, transfen'ed from the reformatory, longer than he would if he had been sentenced directly there by the judge; oh, yes, the prisoner is sentenced to the reformatory not to be pun- ished with imprisonment for a given time for an oflen^ he is sent hene for ihe pfUgtecifciOin of society so long a® he is orimtnis, and though thie court] mi^t have' isienibenced him for a shorter period in tihe Stafe prison ttaam' he actnuaily serves in the r-eformatoiry, it is perfectly' justifiable with us^ and the true ideal to hold him so long as he isi lai dangerous man until there isi some evidetaice given thait he is reasomiaibly fitted to gO' out; whether that ' 2fl is juist or not ihaA is the tlhieoiy upon wMclh. he is sentenced to- tlie ref owmatioiry to be kept n« longer than the maximmn limit of tUe law of thei offense for, which he ils comdictedi; iso it tennis to me the oompaMson between the time a man might have served, and you miaiy add have an opportunity to commit amoither crime, had he been isien'tenoed tinder the old law diaMcitiy to the State pri,son, and the time he ^ does actually serve ujidter wise and intelligent suipeirviision, and efPoTt for Ms prepajpartioin for isociety, is not a just cotnjpaMison. Q. I a5>p!reciate the distinction you miake, and it wiaisi in part to have it istated that the interaoigaitory wiaisi put, but I stUl insist that the prDsioner who isi tpamsferred, might undler your general statemeoQit that he is not transfeTred beaause he isi a hopeless case, but on account of the cwowded condiltabn of the institutiBoni, might, if he remiainedi hene, be reformed withiin the maximum limit ; whereas, if 'he is sent to the State prislon he has tloi serve the maximum limit less ithe statutoocy abatement? A. Unless he is retumied; now you are leaving out the claim thatl the State ] prisons are reformatory. Q. They are reformatory by statute? A. Chaplaini Searles pub- lished in one of hiia reports that niniety-sdx per cent of the men dis- chaipged from Auburn prison were refbrmed; you have expensive agents for the reclamjatibn of these men, and it does not neces-' aarily follow because one of these men, who can not get on itnder our 'System iB tnamsfeired to the Stiatie prilsion that he miay not improve; indeed, they do improve; we have a itaajn cominig back this week from Clinton prison; he bboiught back a number who have isleeni.the differem'cie between' Ithielr sittuattion ther^ and eaimestly petitioned to be brought back, and on the certifleation of 'the warden of the prison where they are confined they have been buought back, and are bWought back; and have an oppor- ttmity to work their way out agaim. Q. Assume for argument'si sake your suggestion!, the State prisons, aire, if not in the samie djegree, stiil, in 'the same sense, Tefoa-matory, as this institution, still the m^an who is tram^sferred to the State prison is iinpriisomed there, notwithstanding he may be reformed within half the maximtun term, whereas,^ here it would be your duty to discharge him after hiis reformatioa, that still remains .true; a man committed 'to this metitution, the punishment for his crime being in the maximum ten yeans^ might be dischairged by you withiu twelve months, if reformed? A. Yes, sir. Q. If he is isent to State prismi and becomesi retormed in eighteen momthSi he is stil retained there ten years, less the statutory abatement? A. He may be returned undea- this resolution. 2^2 Q. It isn't very pirobaMe? A. I woiildn't be wiUing to accept tiiat. Q. The question is practically, whetlier it would mot be better to infofrm ithe coTirts of the crowded condition and not have fuiture cases sent here, ipather than to make TOom for them by trans- feiTiTig men who are not hopeless oases or incorrigible? A. Allow me to reply to that; we have haid that linder careful con- sidtemation, and we found this state of facts, that State prisons wei'e also crowded, and that the question resolved itsielf intx) thig, shaU we notify the courts ami have new case®, smsceptible vfiung men, sent to the State prisons, already overcrowded, to associate with and be contaminated by the convict atmosphere of those establishments and the convict assocdations, and retaSn here the convict class, appairentiy incorrigible, or shall we transfejr , the apparently incorrigible 'and take these iiew, fresh, hopeful caees here as the least of two evils? It Seems to me there is only one answer to that. Q. That may be; these interrogatories are put to get the siug- gestiona and answers; this question has been handed to me in a^idition to the interrogatoiries I have put; in the case of an inmate being transferred under a maximum long term, and hav- ing earned allowance for good conduct, soi that he is about to be discharged, can not the reformatory authorities demand his retransfer and compel him to seT\e the full term? A. The reformjitory authorities under the law have a right to require the return of any man, and when he returns he sustains the same relation to his release, so far as the law and managers are con- cerned, as he woxild if he had been first admitted, or as he woiuld in the same grade here into which he is received frotm the State l)rison, and while it is true that the managers might hold him if they so elect for his maximum term, so they might hold every man who comes in here for his maiximum term. • By Judge Gilbert: Q. As I understand it, the board of management, with the con- currence of the superintendent, may transfer to State prison the inmates of the reformatory; first, for the reason that the inmate is regarded as incorrigible, and also for the reason that the reformatory is overcrowded? A. I say that constitutes the reason for the selection of men: Q. Selection of those inmates that are transferred to the prison? A. Who came under the category of the law. Q. In ord«- to prevent the injju.stice occurring referred to by Commissioner Craig, in your judgmenit, ought there not" to be some amendment to the law by which, when the reformatory was 213 ' / accommodaMng all tliat it could accommodate, that then the courts should send to the State prisons the cdmTiots which might otherwise be sent to thia institution, for the reason that if a oon- ^dct was sent to this institution under the law as it now is, and then transferred to a Statfe prison, he might be compelled to serve the whole maximum term which is fixed as a penalty to the ' offense, while if sent to the State prison direct by a court he would only serve the length of time with abatement which, in the judgment of the cour.t and the factS' presfented upon trial, ajid circumstances suiTounddng the case, entitling the prisoner to favor- able consideraition might limit, his term of imprisonment to a very much less term, and ought not there to be some provision made by which su6h an injustice as that might be prevented? A. I expressed myself k moment agoj I fear you did not quite get it. Q. I think I caught it; I merely asic you now? A. I say noi; I thinli such a statute would be injurious for the reasons I stated, iti would send to the State prisonsi, which aiie overcrowded, for a number of years, the new first offender, the possible susceptibly prisoner, and would retain in the refoirmaitory the apparently incorrigible class; that would be an evil. ii. Isn^'t it a greater evil to be compelled to transfer to State ,- prison an inmate who would be entitled by 'his conduct, the r( cord which he makes here, entitled to be reclaimed in the reformatory, to send him to State prison, where he would be compelled to serve the full maximum term ? A. As between the fiesh convict and the apparently incorrigible prisoner, if either had to be transferred, manifestly, I think the apparently incort rigible prisoner should be transferred for every consideration except the matter of his own detention, and as already explained, he is not obliged, as contended ia the tiewspapers, to remain for his maximum term. Q. Probably we have giyen this subject suflacient attention, at least to bring it out, giving it that prominence that if any report is made to the Legislature they can see about it. By Mr. Craig: Q. I did not intend to imply any opinion on my own part, simply to* get the points ont clearly and have them stated on the minutes. A. I will give you the figures. Mr. Hoppe. — Whole number of indefinites received since th^ ftpening of the institution to the 30th of September, 1892, 5,511. V^Tiole number of indefinites discharged, , including those paroled, 4,193. Whole number of indefinites paroled, 3,289. Percentage of number discharged, including paroled,^ to whole number received, 74.27. Percentage of number paroled to whole number 214 liscliarged, 78.44. Paroled after only twelve months^ 251. Per- centage paroled after only twelve montlis to whole number dis- charged, G per cent. Percentage paroled aiter only twelve months to whole number paroled, 7.6 per cent. Number discharged from let'ormatoiy at expiration of maximum term, 224, or 5.3 of the whole number discharged. ^ Total number transfeiTed tO' State prisons, 519, or 12.37 of the whole flumber digicharged. Number of indefinites remaining at the reformatory, 1,364, or 24.75 pei' ci-nt of the whole number received. ' By Mr. Craig: Q. Mr. Hoppe, you have been sworn. ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The statistics which you have just given are within your special department, as an employe of this reformatory ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — You s.tate them now, under oath, to be correct ? Mr. Hoppe. — Correct; yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Bpockway, you believe tiieiDD to be correct? Mr. Brockway. — I do. Q. That is on t]ie basis of the last annual report, of^ptember 30, 1892 ? . - , Jlr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. . /' Q. Are these marks or grades determined from reports of ii mates resulting from loss of marks, or are they made by cour \ict monitors or officers; whether they are made by coiivict officers oi" monitors, I ask that for the reason that ^\'e find a great deal of complaint is made because of tlie rei)Oi'ts made by the convict officers or monitors ? A. .Judge; you wUl remember you came up to that point a while ago, and I said to exjplain it I would have to go into it at quite a length; that is a very important feature of my testimony. Q. Let me say before we are through I hope you will call our attention to that, so it will be fully explained. A. Must be put in somewhere. Mr. Craig. — I think we will get this in a complete statement of who the officers are, what are the respective capacities in which they .serve, both the citizen and the inmate officers, and have this point specially elucidated; why isn't this a good time to go over it ? Judge Gilbert. — lit requirtesi some sitaiMstics amd so' on which Mr. Brockway may not have at hand ahd my idea, of the matter is aU this wiU come uip more properly on Mr. Brockwky's being reoailled, and when he comes (to explain the situiaiion. Mr. Craig. — He is willing to give it now, and iism't it a part of the gemeanal description of the aJdkninisitirafcion? 21S Judge aatjert. — Very wdl. ' ' Mr. Opaig.— I tMnk tlhie^gepjeml fiacits already called 0uJt from Mir. BroiokWiay should be acoompainied tiy mclii explaniatiora a^ he sees fiit ito make. Judge GMbert.— Very well. Mr. Broickway yioiu may proceed. The quesition is whether or not tihey are made up ftrom reports? A. Amy mian, prasoiuer, officer, employe om teajcher, may make reponts againisit amy other man, officer, oooupying lamy portion here.; it is like the coomplain.itl-boiok, the making of reports is amaiogous to l£e eompl^alit-bboik opened in the office of the mayor of a ca*y, where anybodj' makes a complaimt lagadmstt anybody elsiesaud isdigns his maame; now, I have to shtow whalt is dome with these nepoirte in oird'er to give a coiTeot unideratamdinjg upon the grade chamges. - Q. (Mtr. Oradig.) "Why not begin at the Itegijmtnig^aind give a state- ment of the offioetps and emiployes of the institutibn^ with tiheir respectilre duties, and then' come ito this ipoint aaiid elucidate this point In the light which you have already given usi? A. I am perfectly willing to da that; when I startie anybody can make a repoorti, it includes all. By Mr. Qrai'g: Q. We would like a igenieral statemenjti of the officers of the institution? A. The officers proper are the boaird of majiiagersj general superintendeait, the phyniciain, and the law comtemplated resident dhaplaKn, perhaps; the next rank is nowi the military i inisltrluctor, who^ is the first officer. Q. Under what tiltie? A. Military irustructon is his title; we call Mmi colonel; store^keeper, at present, whoi is assigned toi look- ing after the ecomomies of the place, and the progress of reports, andsooin,aiidhasmoreorleis8ofrei9poinisibilityas to the discipline, a soort of chief of 'police^in thialt regard; them .there are derks, quite a numibier; then tihere aire guards, all the rest of the civil service officers, with, parhiaps^ the exception of the clerk amd telegraipher would! be umder the head of guards; that inicluides what is commiomly known iln the old law as keepers; there is a disitiiiiotioiii in the old ^w between guards and keepera Q. You didn't observe thaJt diistinictiom^? A. We don/t observe th&it disltinctiolii; then we coniie to the mechainlcB, superintendent of repairs, armorer, blacksmith, machinist, and iso oH; then tihere is a hall keeper, amd wie em.ploy inmates far monitor service more or lesis; I think thiat covers it 'aJJ. Q. Please state which of these assostamtsi, this class or order of assistamtis, may be either citizen or inmate asBasitamts? A. May be; you say. 216 Q. Who is under your regulations? A. Any of \hem. Q. WMch. aire in fiaicit ait ibe, paaeiseinifc lalne? A. We luave two clerks who swe not ininateB; wto ajpe iniintarties? Q. Yes? A. Oh, only monilboow; torn majoirisi whio are asisignjed to paitrol duty.; a monitor ait one place or anoitlier, w'hoi affie paaxded ininiajtes; thioughout the place tihiey aire put up to-day and taken down to-moiTow; a weeik laJtiei? an inmate officer as a monitofr to observe wliait is going on in the slipp. Q. You mean an inmate officer in each shop ? A. In some shops; in some of the large shops there is a bItU service officer with an iiynate monitor in another part of the room to assist him, to overlook othei- portions of it; the number of, those I can give you very easiiy fnom the book upfitfeailiH; t!he flrst officer noiw polices the place, and h.e changes those from day to day and time to time, as become necessBiry to caJi!y on the business. Q. Please state the duties of tte flrpt officer ? A. He has par- ticular charge of the military, and lie Sipends alnioist Ms entire time in. the auditing or examining of the reports that are sent in. , Q. He is the same man you, designate as military instructor ? A. Yes; colonel. i Q. WhaA is his title, military instructor ? A. Military iistructor. i Q. You have referred to him several times as first officer ? A. > H* is the first in rank below the superintendent; he sjyends most of his time every day in the auditing or examining, trying at chambers, as you lawyers would say, of the demurrers to demeiat reports sent back by the prisoners; now you have come back to the original question again. | Q. Now is a good time to elucidate that point ? A. I have stated any prisoner or prison officer or officers may file a report against any other; all these are taken up by tbe first officer, mUi- ti;r\- instructor, colonel, evei»y morning, a pile of them, most carefully sorted and examined, such of them as bear on their face evidences of carelessness or inaccuracy or anything that he seems to feel needs investigation he takes up and gets rid of as many as he can of them; they are then turned over to the chief clerk and numbered consecutively on the back with a numbering machine; then they go to another clerk, who writes out a notice of report on the same color, same grade, specifying if the man, has been reported before, encloses it in an envelope and sends it to every prisoner who i» repo^rted; every prisoner has a pad and pencil ; he may write an explanation and i;^tum that to the chief clerk, addressed to the general superintendent, or he may make a positive denial audi send it back ; if the explanation seem® to have any reason in it or any weight it is inquired into and an answer is returned him. 217 Q. By whom is thef answer returned, and by whom is the inves- tigation made ? A. The investigation is made by the colonel, a report of his investigation comes to me with the result, and I sign what ainswer shall be sent; if a denial; then he takes up the matter and tries it with the utmost care at chamber^, as you would say, peripatetic court, going about from place to place, and calling up the ditl'drent parties, makes i a report tO/ the superintendent. Q. These notices that were sent through the clerks, who dic- tates them ? A. They are simply an abstract of the report; it is a copy of the report. i Q. Of the colonel ? A- Reports that have been overlooked by the colonel, and such as ar^ manifestly inaccurate or need atten- tion, but the great nmnber of them go to the numbering machine. Q. These clerks may be inmates ? A. 6b, yes; most of that work is done that way. Q. The machinery is oarried on^by the employesi? A. Yes; if a man sends back his report denying the fact, the colonel makes the best examination he can, and' makes report to the superin- tendent; if the denial is not stustained he gets a first-class report Q. If the denial is not sustained? A. He gets a first-class repOT't for denying' it'; if tihe charge is not sustained the^ reports are three classes, first, second aoid third class. ' Q. You sa,y if the denial is' not sustaamed? A. If thechairge is not sustained; his denial not sustained; that is, if the charge is sustained. ' Q. Hoiw coiuld he get' a first>class report; what dtn you mean by that? A. If he pleads not guilty, and if he is found guilty, not only the charge sitamds, but he getsi sitill aaiotheir report. Q. What do you mean by first-class report? A. That is the highest class repoirt, that which has the - most effect upon his standing. Q. Not a firstt-class standing, but firet-class report? A. The most serious repoirt; since on the face of it that seems a little rough, I wUl be obliged to explain the reason fori it. •Q. You were upon the point of the duties exercised by the first ofSoer in the examination of oases where the general denial was put in and you had come to the point in a case where the general denial was not su^Stained; you said that called for a finst-class report; you meant a report not giving the con\ict first-class, but first-class in its effect Upon his standing? A. Yes, sir; I beg to say aside, explanatory, the reason for that is that it wasi found that the love of the contests, inquiry, as to the accuracy of the report, was such a delight to these fellows, so gratified their love of ■ finesse, that it would take a large number of men to examine I as 218 reports on their denial, if the denial cost them noitihing, so we make it a eerioiua business; if a main says, on. hia honor, that thajt ii-I>i>rt ija not true, iu West Point it would be aicoepted; here we acceprt it so far as to use the'~whale machiaery of the establislir ment to try and aficertadn about if, and if his denial proves toi be faLse then he gets an additional penalty for falsehood; that is the explanation of that; we found it absolutely neoeissiary in adminis- tering the syeifcem. Q. How many of these examinations ai^d findings or con- 'Clusions do you pa-sooially review? A. Every one of them. , Q. So far as to go into the evidence ^d weigh- it? A. The ,cplon€l sits down with me with the reports' and he saysi: " Hei% is the charge, I find so and so; the evidence is this way, and that way;" and I make up my judgiment; I cancel it or modify iit( or order it to stand. (^. You then review it on Ms Sitaitement of the evidence? A. Oerrainly. j Q. Not on any indej^endent staitemenit? A. Noi, sir; he has examined it as a court and makeei his i-epoirt; he is a referee. Q. What are these cases which he examines; are they simply reports of omissions? A. Anything. Q. Reports of seiious offenses? A. Serious or trifling. Q. So the most serious punishments may hang upon his exami- nation? A. Oh, noi, sir; I haven't finished my statement; now, if the man still denies and there is any basis for denial, which any initelligent mam can tell at once, if iti is' simply an issue of fact, and the consequences are quite seriousi, I order a court- martial, at which the colonel or first ofQcer, military instructor, presides with two others, usually the ^ool secretary and! the second officei', or one of our chief clerks, and there the testimony is taken; not always, but if it is a serious and impoirtaiLt case, we talce a stenographic report of the telstimioiny. / >; ., Q. You don't mean, of cotu'se, testimony under oatih ? A. There is no oath; statements; tbey make up a verdict and we allow the Scotch verdict, " Not proven." ii. So there are three verdicts ? A. Three verdictsi Q. Are you present at those court-martials? A. Not lately; I used to try them all myself. Q. Down to what time did you ? A. Four or five years ago. Q. Do you review all those court-martials ? A. They make a- report to me, with a copy of the testimony without finding; I read it carefully, set. it aside, modif\' it, affirm it. ^ Q. Do you carefully examine evei-y one of those cases ? A. Oh, \es; every one of them. Q. Do I understand you correctly when, I understand your teb- timony as already given, that there is no serious punishment ot 219 serious consequencje which follows from any examinatiom by the fii'st officer until alter this court-martial has foUowed and your reviLn\- of 'the flndin.gs of the court-martial with the testimony taken ? A. The inquiry at chambers or by oourt-martial and my rt'Tiew resent ? A. One name is Decker; ar other name is Lazen.by; two Lazenbys. Q. Who has charge oi the halls and cells at night ? A. Mr. Rickert is captain of the watch. Q. Before we get any further, there is a distinction, I suppose, may be made between inmate officers who are on parole and inmate officere who are not on. parole ? A. Yes. Q. Are the inmate offlcei-s genei-ally paroled men ? A. Gener- ally, with the exception of the mounting services in the shop, and some of those are paroled men. Q. Take the case of a man who has once been absolutely dis- chdyrged and been returned here or retained here as an officer; you don't include him among the inmate officers ? A. No. ^ Q. He is a citizen officer ? A. He would be if we ever did such a thing,; we have one man recently put on who was a ^23 plumber; been here onlj a few days, who was absolutely — who has sen-ed his maximum, then we have one man who has served out his maximum here — Mr. Hoppe. Q. After he was_pai-oled ? A. After he \\ais pai-oled; he was, paroled an.d employed here, the full period of parole was sei-ved out here; our habit is not to give an absolute release to a paroled man employed here. Q. ^\. man whohis employed here as an inmate officer or employe is retained during the maximum term ? A. If he desii-es to remain. Q. Ilis discharge begins then ? A. Yes, by limitation of the maximum. Q. You recall now only two cases of discharged men being here employed ? A. After the maximum has expired. Q. AVhen you designate officers as inmate officers you mean men while on parole ? A. Still on parole or not paroled. Q. Now proceed and give the duties of the officers ? A. I have given you the hall-keepers and the clerk; then, there is a hospital steward, allowing my mind to go in that depar-tment of the prison where these men are engaged, ^\■ho has charge of the hos- pitals, the distribution of the doctor's prescription and visits with the doctor ; cells and shops ohi the morning call ; in the af tiernoon, I think after dinner, he goesi aroiund; tol the cells toi >see whether any man who may remain in requires any medical attendance; his whole diities art^ confined tb the hospital, and, thiis other ser- vice which I have so briefly described; the clothing man I think I described; now, you come to the kitchen, the dnmesitic depart- ment; we have a cook,- competent cook, who has general charge of the preparatibin: of food) and serving, siO' fai' aei the officers are concei'ned; we have an asisistant down there who is a paroled man at present; we have a civilian there, Jlr. McLaughlin, Avho has. been with us a great many years, and we have still another paroled man as sort of a monitor; in the laundry we have a prisoner in charge, which opens odif the kitchen; then you come to men in charge of- shops; their dnty, I suppoee, everybody undensitands, substantially the same here as in any prison — keeps order. Q. Yoni don't call them keepers here? A. Guardis. Q. Yoiu have one guard to each shop ? A. We have one to each shop, one or more, one or more guards or monitors. Q. Some Shops you don't have a guard in? A. Some have g'uflird and some have motnittor. Q. What' are the duties of the guards in the sihops; see that the prisoners dO' their work and make reports? A. See that the rules of the shop are enforced, good order is maintained, thait 224 the work goes on; gire peimisBicto tO' the mem to^ leave their place. Q. The duties of monitors? A. The monitor is to do^ the same thing m his portion of the shop. Q. Some of the monitoiis in the shop are not even paroled men? A. Yes. Q. Did you tind them trustA\orthy? A. Yes. Q. Which is the better oflSoer, ithe citizen or jomate ofilcer in such capacity? A. The mondtoriail service that we get is better fi-om the paroled otticer or the prisoner officer, who has been trained in the ranks. (l In what respect is it better? A. He is more watchful, more obsei'vant. Q. Does he make more reports? A. I don't think there is any difference about that. Q. Not in the number of reportsi,then?; A. Na ' t^. In the quality of his reports? A. The greait service, valuable scrxioes of the monitor or guard in a workshop, where large num- bers of men are confined, is that he is observant; and has good, judgment; that is about all of his duties any way; he doesi not gi'ti down and go among the men, but he signals; there aire 100 men working; they have to constantly move in order to main- tain order; they must move witli permission; he ite supposied to sec a. hand raised anywhere. i (i. He has authority to give permission? A. Yes; to go here and there. (J. To come to the duty of guards, as I understand, under the designation of guards in this institution, you embrace both classes of officers in prison, viz., guards and keepers? A. Yes, sir; the general duties of guards are on the outpostsi, on the walls, on ,u:niin*d mount; they are to be vigilant and observe whatever tran- si)ires within the range of their vision, and they are armed with TN'inchester rifles to pre^'ent escapes and to notify us of any suspicious circumstances that take place within the yards or anjNvhere; they are to be on their feet during the hours of ser- vice and when they come off they have in regnlaa* turn a dut|y, monitorial duty in the school or trade schools; in the evening take their turn at that; those ai-e all citizenis on the guard posts. Q. T\^at are their duties as keepers? A., Their duties! are the same as the others I have describedi as belonging to the paroled monitor in the shop. Q. Have they no dlity in the hail? A. Oh, yesi; all those men have. Q. You say they comie off the walls — how long laire they on the walls? A. On the wall duiring the d'ay; eight hodirisi; come off at noon foe dinner. 22!^ Q. Yoiu dom't keep mem on the waUs diiniiig the wiluole time in which pirisoneps are out of theii" cells? A. Yjesi, sir. Q. They aiie oalit of their cells duTong schlool hoaira? A. After the dioioms airie cloisied then we halve a night force of watchmen. Q. Whose special duty it is to wialtoh the priisanensi in the halls and in the cells as well as in the shop and nuaike reports thiroiugh the daytimte and mg]^ects; I _waht to be frank and candid about it; if there are such men in an institu- tion like this who are highly trustworthy, of course they would 227 be tnistworthy as witnesses on otlier issueei; on pther questions ? A. Certainly. Q. Aside from the questioiis of the management in which they took part as officers; how, how many of the inmates of this insti- tution are in sucli a category sufflcientiy trustworthy in their character to be f adrly credible when they come to give testi- tuony before this investigating committee ? A. Im{)ossible for me to give an answer, numerically. Q. The proportion ? A. I don.'t know how many men there are in such a position to-day; I have been out, you know, for ten days. ' Q. Say a month ago ? A. How many men- were acting as monitors ? ■ v , Q. How manyi men in the institution, would come relatively to the point of trustAvorthiness sufficiently to be presumably credi- ' ble ? A. I am unable to answer you. Q. How many of the first-grade men, of the upper flrsit-gradie men ? A. The fact, he was in the upper first-grade wouldn't be conclusive one Avay or the other. , '■■ .,Q. Then the question is how do Vou determine the truetworthi- nfess of the men whom you constitute inmate officers ? A. By the man and th^ circumstances. • i ■ Q. May not a man make a good record simply from a motive to get out; of course, that is a valuable motive, because it is a, valuable motive with a citizen outside to keep him in order aB.d obedience to the law, at the same tinie it is not an a,bsolute or a very highly relativp ,test of trustworthiness' of character; how do you test the trustworthiness of an inmate officer aside from his general record? A. By his record; by our personal acquaint- ance with him and the impressions we get from constant inter- course; by antecedent facts, etc. Q. It isn't simply then his obedience to the rules? A. Not necessarily that ; that is one factor in it. Q. What particular thing isi it that enters as an element ,in that problem, aside fronn his record? A. The o])8ervedi probity of disposition and o^iaracter of the man. Q. Has not-^his insifitution come toi a point in itsi growth, with its large population, where you have not a personal acquaintance with each inmate, -n-here you can not continue that personal government and contact with each imnate which you observed when it was a small institution? A. The institution is very much larger than it wasi; the assumption of the quesitiom isl that for the hmt administration the general siuperintendent in person m\i8t be on the most intimate personal relationis with every inmate; that I should dtemur to; under the new and improved .228 system of pi^son adininistration ; but all tlie prisonea'si who nw'd discigline, all tlie defective pnisonePs, come under *tilie personal pervue of the general superintendent; the fact is, eighty per cent of o\w men grind out in this disciplinary machine, inspired aa it is, and the smaller, the twenty per cent, who require that pereonal adminisitration, I am unable to get' at. , , / Q. Yonr personal government and knowledge of the inmates is still kept up in relation to the twenty per cent of the worsit elements, is that so? A. And the pt^r'sonal knowledge of the record, progress or want of progress in labor, in schooling, in behavior of every man: (2. But not the same perooDal knowledge of the inmat'es at large ,_ a.s of the inmates in the lower grades? A. Well, I should hardly feel lilce giving yom a correct statement tO' say that the personal knowledge of inmates by the general superintendent is deter- mined by the grade because there are many mem in the lowest oit convict grades who get on. Q. Of those who need the most watching? A. Those who most need it get it. Q. What I am coming a't is this; the inm;ate officers are not taken from the class that you give the most attention to? A. They ai-e tal?en froan a class whoi are higher than that. (>. They are taken froni'a class of which you personally know tlie least? A. That is hardly true, because they are taken from a cla«--.s who have been here the longest time and with whom we have nalurallyl from that fact alone, made a close acquaintance; they are employed usually, ' those mouitors and prison oftioei^, also as military officers, and they ojme under the very careful and close observation. Q. You stated this mourning that thisi syst'em here is in evolu- tion, and, of course, if that be so, unless it is going bac-kwaT'd now and in process of dissolutixjn, it must be sitill moving forward in the process of evolution? A. I hold it is. , Q. This system of governihg by inmate officers is one of the things which has been developed here? A. Yes. Q. It nlust be if the evolution is still going on more or less on trial still, and it is in respect to this partiailar system of inmate officers that many allegations have been made, and what I want to get at is, what is your persoilal knowledge of the men who are apix)inted as inmate officers,i before they are appointed? A. Xo men are appointed as inmate offlcetis except on my approval. Q. Is it your approval on| the knowledge of your subalterns or your own personal knowledge? A. A man is recommended' to me; I turn np to his conduct record, that I am constantly at every month, I promote Ifim' oi^ reduce him, or mark him or oaraoel; I 229 turn to tiie bioigraphioai sketch, which, brings the man as in a mirroi" befome my mind and in same cases where •thme t~vyO' soiuices pi tafoirmaMon are mot ^sufficient I send for hiLm and taike a look at him and talk witih, hian and' I am sietltiled abbut it; the temporairj' changies from on© place to amothjer, militatry officansi anid monitoirsi, are rainely made without consultajtLoni with myisidf,, but in | the exigencies of the adminilsttlnation, certain illness oir abisenoe of a man, it bacomieis neciesisiairy for the colomei to exepoise his own discretion. Q. Hx)w maaiy inm'aite officersi are theire? A. Some sixty oom.- misisdomed officens. ^ Qj In the miliJtary ? A. Quite a number of tihemi arte doing more or lesia, tampociairily or perman.etn)tly,, mionirtoiciai serviice; I am unable to tell yoiu the nuaiilber; pea^hjaps twelve to. twenty monitoins'. , Q. How many immiatte Officers aa?e serving in oitiher capacities, such alb dlerbs or assistants and bookkeetpensi? A. About twemity or twenty-five clerks: -( , Q. How many in other oapacdties? A. Thiere arie; clerksi amd monitora tihjat oomstitute the pirincipal portion of it. Q. Are there any other capacities? A. Official oapaoities. yon refer toi? Q. Yes? A. I don't recall any at tlhis miomient. Q. I infer from your statement that ^the monitors are taken from the commissioned officers of ihle military ; by what system, are the coonmissioMed offltoers appointed? A. The commissioned officers and the isergieamtsi are included.; they aa'e appointed on the nominiation of the colonel to' the general snperintendJeint. Q. What are tte grouilidis foi- their iselectlon? A. Adaptaltiom to the mlliitlary duties, good record, and I take intoi consideration other things, when I go over the bioigraphioai register and con- duct register, their previous record, previous to coming here. Q. You name fimst adaptation to hiilitairy dutiesi — is that tihe chntef element? A. You will oWsierve the miiitairy officer in select- ' ing hds' assistants wiU sielect a man that is adapted to the duties he is desired to have done; I do' not allow him toi make tluese ajppoinrtiments for tine reason other considerations' must enter into thiem, 'and he has now miore or less i regard to other conisiderar taonsi-; it becomes worrisome to bi-m toi nominate m,en that he knows when tbey come to tb.e suiperinttendent will be thrown out. Q. Wh'at proportion of his nominations do you oonflrm by appointment, approximately? A. Latterly he is very careful about it; I should say now something like ninety per cent of them. Q. How long has that been true? A. Thlat has been true for five or six months; occasionally when we are out by the process of setectaon and release of the fittest good men, and he Ms to' make 230 sieleotibiis from amoithjer class, I knock out more of tihem; whJaitl I am giving you now — Q. (Interrapifcing.) How long iLas he been ooloniel? A. Four years. Q. What was the proportion when he began? A. I couldn't give you the percentage, very much more. Q. Percentage of those rejected by you ? A. Those I rejected. Q. Da you ever appoint any one in the miiitary who is not first nomiilniart^ed by the colonel? A. 'No; pnacticiailly not Q. You don't go outside of those who are adapted to militairy duties, no ma.tteri how high their record is or hJow tirusitwontlhy tliey m'ay appeain to be to you pensionially in your appointment of laonitors in the shops ? A. MUitarj officers; monitors are aippodlmted sometimes outside of their mdlitlairy officers. Q. How often? A. Rasrely; I don't kniow how often. Q. The point of adaptartaou to mildtairy duties is, thePefoipe!, the leading consideration ? A. No, sir; the adaptation is the initial conisideration. Q. No matter how-^ good the Tecord or a mlatn may be or how trustworthy he may appear to you to be, or really is, he is not appointed to bt' monitor in a shop or in the halls so that we are reduced to. a comparatively .small number frofn which to select persons of good character to be the monitors and keep watch and n.s.eist in maintaining the discipline of the institution ? A. The number of suitable men is comparatively small. , , Q. The number of men adapted to military duties is compara- ti\ely small ? A. Yes. Q. Do you find the men adapted to military duties are, as a rule, better men than those who are not adapted ? A. Better men for monitorial service. Q. In trustworthiness of character and in. general record ? A. I don't know; the adaptati^i to jnilitary command is a valuable "qualification for one \\ho has to serve as a monitor in command of a department. i ,Q. In executive ability and spirit of command, but it wouldn't give him truthfulness or trustworlMness of character ? A. The fact he is in the military would argue that he is as worthy as anybody we could jKissibly select for that qualification enters .into it through the general superintendent, to whom he is nominated by the colonel, this military qualification. Q. There must be a much larger mmiber outside of those adapted to military duties who ai-e equally or perhaps more trustworthy in his general character ? A. There are some trustworthy men, but hewers of wo6d and drawers of water; they haven't the peculiar quality that enables us to place them in conmiand of ; ' 231 otiers, not because they are crooked or disiidnorable, but they lack the qualifications; many mem can, not control others; that is, tliey would get nothing dome. Q. Perhaps I have spent too long a time on that ? A. I would like to say in this matter it is a verj- important matter, which wUl , come up again, I suppose, that while the employment of prisoners as m'onitors in, charge over other prisoners is objectionable in an oi'dinaiy convict prisoner, universally conceded to be so, perhaps imjirae;tical, it is while nigh essential in a refoomiatory prison, and this opinion was held by McCornhie, of the Norfolk Island prison, and I have come out of the Old prison administrg,tion and came to this view rather reluctantly, and now quitte agree with htm; another thing I would like to siay, that in liability to injustice from the employment of monitors, injustice to other prisoners is an incident ofUheir communal life; we move into a community where the character of the population is low; we have to be tried by their juries; arrested by their policemen, and abide by, the decisiion of their courts; we, as members of that community, and the evolution of a reformatory sj^stem, look toward a conimunity in which there shall be more and more of the life of a community outside, industrial life, and in the self government of it; and these riien, if they do receive what they esteem to be injustice, do it by virtue of the community in which they dwell and into which they huve introduced themselvas by their own act, volun- tary OP otherwise, and one of the essential elements of training for these men is to learn to bear inevitable injustice and thait' ,' medicine which I give to these I am trying now, rdyself, to express and manifest; that is an important Element; I often say to a mam for whom we have exhausted every resource, tO' ascertain the t.rnth, and he stUl feels that the decision is unjust,' I say, "Well, you and I know, you have the samie chance I had to learn to bear ( without going to pieces and destroy yourself; that which is inevit- able, bear it, like a man; as far as I know, as far asi myi judg]- ment goes, I believe the decision is just; at any rate we have ('exhausted all the sources of arriving at^ the truth you coxiTd have in society outside," and they often say, "Yes, I' IjDow that; " still they may aflarm, they- are noti justly treated; with those two remarks I will say nothing further on the subject unless you ask me a question. Q. You si)oke of reluctantly introducing the system of inmate officers; how long has it been in existence here? A. I don't know, /particularly since 1888; since th-e introduotion of the military system; ithat really enabled it. Q. The inferenibe, from my examinationi with reference to ' inmaiies who are trustwoirthy, and sltill not adapted toi military 232 duties, is tliat there are more trustworhy men in' the institution who are nioti inmate officers than there are who are inmate otfioem; is that coiTec* according to your understanding? A. \'ery likely. Q. Xot as a mere inference, but as a fact? A. The inference from that fact would not be justiflable. , * Q. What is not justiflable? A. We never- select our officers from 'any but the upper first grade. / Q. That I am assuming; but you are restricted to trustwoirthy men who aire adapted to militairy duties.? A. In the) upper first grade. , ' i Q. I assume from what you have already said that there ai'e more trustworthy men who aire no* adapted to military duties than there are who are adapted to them? A. More in the upper firs grade ? ' \ Q. Yes; it is a. limited number who are adapted tio militairy duty? A. Trustworthinesls, as you use that term, is a little elastic. Q. INIen who are of character, so far asi you know or can judge, equally good with those who are appointed as officers? A. I have no disposition to be captious or technical, but I really think the term " equally good " is. also an elastic term. a': Q. I don''t< siee how " equally " can be an elastic tenn? A. There isn't any such thing as equality of goodness betAveen any two men. Q. Eelative? A. Equally good for amy specific scheme. » Q. I mean eqiially g-ood so far as truthfulness, ti-UNtiWorthiniesis, in that, sense? A. Oh, many a man in the lowest primary olasis or in the experimental class might be ais instinctively truthful as the most educated luan we have in the place. Q. Habitually truthful; tlie point is this, you appoint this kind, and you wouldn't appoint one whom you didn^t believe toi be truthful and tmstwoi-thy ih character, but you are linlited in yom' appointment to those who are nominated as adapted t() jnilitary dutiesi? A. We are not limited' by amy rule of law; we ohooise to do that; th^re are exceptions to it. Q. But that is the general nile? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don't you know that these men who are nominated as adapted to military dutdesi are only a minority of the class who are truthful and trustworthy in character? A. Ivet me give you an illustration of what is in my mind? Q. You. wouldn't appoint a man who is not truthful? ' A. No. Q. You wouldn^t appoint a man who is not adapted to militairy duties? A. I do in some instances; not as a rule. Q. Tlie point is, are there not as many and more men who are truthful and trustworthy who are not adapted to military duties as there are of those who are adapted to military duties ? A- I'ou are asking me for estimates relative to percentages for which I 233 I Lave no data; T will give you iny impreseioii; I would like to say that the implication tliat men migM be assignM to moni- tciial duty wh.o are truthful and trustworthy, althougih not adapted to military duty, and that they ought to be, perhaps. Q. That wasn't my implication ? A. I know what you are c<'ming to. Q. I ajn couiing to this point, as to the comparative number of inmates here who may be considered as truthful and trustworthy in characteir when they come upon this stand and give testimony, under oath, before this investigating committee. A. I couldn't give you any estimate of it. * Q.' You would say, presumptively, a monitor is truthful ? A. ' In certain relations. Q. Wonld you appoint; a man as monitor whom youdidn^t believe to be truthful ? A. I wouldn't appoint a man ae monitor whom E didn't believe capable of being truthful, likely to be truthful in the sphere and for the duties assigned him. ■: Q. Might he not, in his peculiar sphere as monitor, have more temptation to swerve, from the truth than he would in ordinaay, relations'; than he would if he came before this investigating ' com:iiittee toj^'ve testimonj- ? A. T coiildn't state, you see, sin, ,-• the truthfulness of the average man is very largely determined in his truthfidneiss in any statejnent he is called upon to make, by the (iiroumstanees of the time, and occasion; all Of us are liable ifi some great exigency, perhaps, to swerve; I remember a lawyer who ^\a^ asked a question in court here, a man of the utmost probity of character, which if he answered would give away, his client, and which if he did not answer would give away his client, ' and we asked him what he did; he said, "I lied;" a man of unquestionable probity of character. Q. Do you mean to say he is a man of unquestionable probity of character and yet under the solemnity of a transaction in court he deliberately ^ied ? A. That is what he said. - Q. You mean unquestionable probity of reputation ? A. Reputation. Q. Not of iunei* character ? A. I don't know about inner char- acter; I don't discuss that; 1 gave you an illusti-ation where a man felt his high moral duty was to depart from the truth under the circumstances. i Q. We have gone ovei' the ground with those men, who were r.ominated to you as specially adapted to military duties, whom you have investigated and believed to be tnithful and trustworthy, were appointed monitors ? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is, they are appointed officers from whom the mbni^ tore are selected ? A. Yes, sir. : 30 2S4 Q. You don't go outside of tiiose nomineee, as a rule, to appoint ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I have inferred, also, from tlie examination, that there are some men outside of those nominated who are adapted to mili- tary duties, who are of the same general oharactc^r of truth, and ti-ustv\'orthiness as thoae you investigate and appoint on the nominartion ? A. Moi'e or less, there are some outside who are as truthful, probably, in their sphere as these are in theirs. Q. You say only ten per cent are rejected of these nominated ? A. Yes. Q. If such a small number are nominated and only ten' per cent of th(-ui rejr-cted as \iiuni1hful or untrustworthy, or for olher reasons, my infeieucc would be thaA outside of those specially adapted to military diuitiesi there would be a still larger number who are truthful and trixsitwoiirthy, and I wamt to get yonr loiowledge or your impresisaon? A. I haive noi impiiesisiiJon aboiut thiajt; the fallacy of tlie reasoning, if you- wall allow me to be so > plain as to siay what seems to me — Q. Thait is what I want to find ouit? A. If John Doe of Bochesiter would tell the truth as to the cost of a, hat foi" Ms boy may we not reajsonably infer that A. B. of Bimighlatmtom would tell the truith giving his testimony in a court. Q. I think that is mare speciouis than sound fom thisi reaison^ A. (InteaTiupting.) The thought, in nly mindl, is thlalt tlie monitor for a particular sphere and dnties limited, that he hajs to dO, mlay be, entirely reliable in some other place in the inatatutiofli; he nlight not be. Q. Would he be reliable in coming before thisi investigaitdng conunittee? A. It is for the committee themBelves to judge as to the credibility of testimomy; under the clrumistanicesi I think I can not be called to give an impresision as to testimioiny which may be for or against me. Q. It seems to me a man who is appoilnted! to have watch and ward oveo" fellow convicts and on whose aoeusatiloaisi reportlsi aire investigated, and on whose testimony, in chief, coiaviotionisi aire due, must be presumed to be truthful and trustworthy so that he Avould be credible when he came before thisi .injvestigathxg com- mittee? A. The ohairanan is entirely at liberty to make suchl a presumption if he choosies to do^ sol Q. What do you find in your experience thjaiti in sOi fair as these monitoips err they err in favor of the prisomier or agailnist him? A, I find no peculiarity about that, sir; they aire quite accuaute in their reports; there are some errors of course; I don't now recall any inistanice of manifest tendency or pajrtiaMy one way or the other; I think the repbirts of these 'monitoa^ are as inteOijgemt, 235 qTiite as initlelligeiiut) wiheire flhey have iitlhie ajyietnage aanoiuiiit of edmcar tiom, as the reports of tlie cdvil, service bffiicierisi \ Q. Do you tihink ais truistworitJiy? A. In sio far as they aire imteiUigeiiit tiuey aire, equally tnustwoirtliy, abd I coiuidn't make a general rsitlatemen't about that; if aay paitttlitatLlair caise eihioiuld come up I n]iJglDt_ say yes, the stajtementi of this moiniitoirs is fully as truistlwor'thy as anybody else and the other ome not. Q. Gifving youir eisitknaite ais a aupedmitendemt and speciMisit in favot of the sitatememt of inmate monitoons' you muslt ihlave some opinion am tio the ifcrustwoirtthineisis^ whetheiri they are more or less tiiuisltwoartihy th-am the citizeni? A. I isay the service we get fnom thlem, wilih tihe selecition amid asisignmuenit of lihe general supeirta- tendemt on .the nominajbLom of the colonel and the guaa'disi aad sufpfervMofo, that it, is ai very siattdsfactory service, with, some exceptlous which would wadily occur to you. Q. As a rule aiocusatiOns begin with them, do they no*; aud exiaiininiatiOn for alleged offemsiels begini on their reporbsl? A. Many accusationjs begin with (them. Q. As a rule? A. Perttapsi so; I should ithink so; the mililtlaffy officers and thte monitors and tlie civil service oifflcerisi mairie most of the reports. Q. I wislx to suggest; I don/* mean to expn^s ajny opinion ait the present time on the monitor syisitemi, including inmate monitorsi, if iny questions steiem to be anrtagnoisltic it is to get at the points; is there anything further you would Mke to sitiaite ? A. I am not miaking a sitatemenit; I am- ready to answer any quelstion. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. How many inmate monitiorsi did you say there were emiployed usually? A. I made a rough guess t|oi-d!ay; I think there are about twenty; I, could give you, in a few momenitsi the exact nimiber on' duty to-day; it was a rough statement, put- ting it twelve to twenty. By Mr. Oraig: Q. Is this institution upon) the general plan of any other insti- tution in the world, or is it unique? A. I should say there are some- other institutions tha/fc are on the general plan of this. Q. That begani after thife dteivelopedl? A. Yes; thisi is the, first reformatory of this class in the United State, and I rather think in the world; I don't know of any other. By Judge Gilbert: ^ Q. 1b the conduot of the monitors subject toi review by anyone connected with the institution? A. You refer toi their duties in the conduct of the shop? Q. As monitolrts? A. Oh, yes, sir. Q. Is there anyone who can reviewi their conduct with refer- 236 enc*? to th.e tliorougllmess and vigilance wMioh. they exerciise as monitons? A. Yes, sirj it woiiildl manifest^ itself in tlie condition of the shop. Q. If t±Lej are derelict in that negaixl may tliey, aisi pairole coin- nets, lose their grade? A. They would hardly !«*, except for con'upt conduct Q. I don't refer to whether it would be corrupt or nio't, but from any otiher cause may tliey lose their positioni? A. They are liable to lose 'their positiom. Q. So tharti it' is 'a matter of greait interest to themi to bd vlgi- ' lant and tl^oirough in the discharge of tiheiiP duties im monitors? A. A strong leverage upon ttem. ' Q. And tp manifest in tlie performance of that duty a degree of conmiendable interest? A. A sitirong motive in that direction there certainly is. , Q. Have there been case.^ where those paTOle convicts acting in that cajiacity have lost, their grade and faJlen to a lower gr-ade? A. Yes, sir. i Q. Can \ in anything else except water? A. Neva:'. A 237 Q. Was there ever any instance where a conA-ict was given his choice to say whether he woiild be paddled or whether he would be put in hot water? A. Xo, sir. i Q. Have there ever been any instances where a convict has been put in hot waitea-? A. No-, sir; I think I recollect what has suggested the quesition; many j'ears ago, before the last investi- gation, peT'h;ips before the first, a. prisoner committed suicide here and whs cnl down and taken to the batli-ro,om, the doctor \va,s there, and for resuscitation he was placed in hot water, not htot water, but "narm waiter, isubsequently, asi is not infrequent, T think ,' M'hen. lie was taken to Albany 1o be buried 'there was some I'brasion of the skin, some portion of the body here, and an ignor- ' ant physician assumed tliat he must have been scalded; he was not scalded; that Avas shown conclusi^•ely by the testimony of our physician on, that inxestigation; if he v,m it was only an accident in the zeal for his resuscitation. Q. Had that convict been punished just previous? A. No, sir. Q. Or threatened with punishment? A. It is so many years ago; thei^e was nothing about the con\-ict; it was- one of those abnormally light fellows, tJiat gc^ discouraged. Q. In cases /where the convict was punished, taJven to the bath-room and punished, T understood you to say tha,t the physi- cian was not present'? A. No, sir. Q. l)o yoti know of any case A^iiere the attention of the physician WHS called to a case soon or immediately after ?, A. Only the one I gave you in my testimony. Q. "VVTien prisoners are confined in the solitaries, or resit cure, or dark cells, is the physician required or is it hiis custom to visit such imnates ? A. He would naturally, in hisi visits, visit all the men in the rest cure. ' , Q. For instance, a prison:ei' is confined in a solitary, is it made the duty, and do you know, the physician iierforms it, of visiting that inmate daily to see what his condition is ? A. It is acces- hible to him, and it is optional with himself whether he goes there or not. Q. There is nothing in the rules or regulations that would require it ? A. No, sir. Q. Does he regulate or determine the kind of food that shall be given him ? A. No, sir; not in the seclusion cells; he may inake any siuggestions or recommendations, or he may issue an order, if he pleased. Q. But there is nothing in the rules or regidations requiring him to do it ? A. No, sir. Q. In answer to a question which Mr. Craig put to you, you referred to the duties of an attendant, a hospital atteadant, is he 238 a physician ? A. J^o; he comes here after a long experience in the Willard asylum, as an attendant. Q. I understood you to say he would visit the patients and prescribe for them ? A. No; he would visit the patients after the noon hour; the doctor spends the forenoon here. Q. What portions of the day or week does the regular physician attend here ? A. He spends every forenoon here, from 8 o'clock in the morning until 12 or 1 o'clock, or more, as may be deemed necessary, and is subject to call by telephone at any time after . that. Q. He attends e^ery day the forepart of the day ? A. Yes. Q. And is subject to call at any time ? A. Yes; sir. ^ By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Has the shower bath evei' been used here as a mjethod of treatment or punishment ?, A. No, sir. By Judge (lilbert: Q. In connection with this matter of pimishmentsi, something lias- been said, and perhajm a good deal more may be said, about the using of a hot iron in order to take prisoners out of thefe cells; state what there is about that ? A, I gave it to you the other day. Q. Now we are taking it under oath ? A. I would state pre- cis-ely what I stated then; that is my best statement about it; I know of but three methods in use in any prisons in the world, four methods of removing a dangerous prisoner who is armed in his cell; one method, one I used when I was General Pillbury's first assistant, was to go in and talce him out; men did not have knives then, as they do now days. Q. Knives in shops ? A. They had Isnives, but the impulse to arm with knives .^eems to have sprung up in prisons since then; a dangerous man, arnied with a limife, must be "removed; the- necessity for his removal is the damage of any delay throughout the whole establishment; yon have a contest on between a con- vict and the government, and as men go to a horse race or prize fight or cock fight, they would, if they could, leave their several plaws and gather around to see the fun, see who was coming out ahead; the influence of delay in removing a man thus armed and boisterous and noisy is very serious; he must come out immedi- ately ; in Italy they use chlorofonn, break a bottle of chloroform in the room; McClaughry, of Joliet, told me he found yery effective a ball of candle wick, saturated with turpentine, arid ignite it and throw it in the room, and the man soon, falls suffocated; I have never used those methods, for the reason, for fear I might^ have a fatal reeult on my hands, and that is the only reason; I 239 take the ruder, more summaiy method, since we don't allow our offioers to go in any more and bring out a mam who is armed with a knife, since one was killed, and that is, we take what you saw the other day, a piece of gas pipe. Q, I didn't see it. A. The gentlemen saw it; a piece of gaa pipe nine or ten feci long, bent two feet. - / Q. What diameter ? A. About, three-quartei' inch gas pipe, and pull Mm out; he will barricade his door, put up his bed, and go in the back en.d of his cell, and we can't persuade him to come out; many are x>ei'suaded to come oil fc after a few moments, reach around him and pull liiui xxp to the cell door, held by the hoolc, and then almost always they will give up their knives and the door may be opened and he may be removed; sometiSnes a man will seize this bar in the room; he has the long end of the lever; you can.'t do anything with him at aU; now, we heat it, send it out and heat it, and I'lsually when he finds he can't take hold of it he will come up and give it up; some instances' theiy have had to be pulled out by irons; since he could not take hold of it it would hook about him. Q. The hook or bend is so large it will go around his body ? A. Yes; pull him up to the cell door and get his knife; he need not suffer from the hot iron if he choose to obey the order to come up and hand "out Ms knives. Q. If he will step up faster than the iron comes hp ? A. Yesi; I haven't been personally present; I tMnk the officer stated the other day that it was a number of yearsi; I don't know but he said seven years. By Mr. Craig: - Q. An attendant said it was seven years? A. It was seven, years since we have used that; allow me to say for your informa- tion that there is sort of contagion in prison ais there is of accidents and crime out of prison; they run for a season and then, cease; thc^re was a time when we had several of those, then ifc c«asei3, and that is the end of it;, it is manj' yeaiis' since they h^d such a case; the charge that a man is punched and burned I regard as false, although as I say to you, I have never been present watching the process; it is only a inoment or two, the man comes out; there is one officer here who has always been presient, ajid will be able to give yon testimony in that regard; whatever he swears to will be reliable; the allegation, perhaps I had better not speak of that until it comes up, that men have burned in the breast, I believe to be utterly untrue; I have nevea' known of an instance; I fhould have heard of it; if any ' serious wound has been inflicted the physician would have been called to treat it, and I am sure no such thing ever occurred. ■ , 240 Q. This year-book, as it is called, No. IT, is the one issued by the reformatory' for the year 1892? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that issued by the superintendent under the authbrity and direction of the superintendent and board of managertj? A. Board o^ managers and superintendent, Q. The superintepdent and board of management are acquainted with its contents and statements? A. Must be. , ^ Q. There is one staitement here I don't fully under^^tand, tak^ ing it in the light of the explanations! you have been making here to-day, \^itli reference to the objects which the management and I'he superintendent had in view in adopting the modes of punish- ment, which they say they have adopted, and I will call your attentdon to it, so you may explain it while you are upon the rttaud; speaking of the ti^atment of the men in the lower grade this stiiteiiHMit is made: "The 'tu'eaitment of men in the convict grade;" that, I tMnk, is in the lower grade? A. Yes, sir. (i. " Is calculated to maike the offender taste to the verV dregs the bitter pairt of prison life; w)iat do you mean by that? A. I did not compose that; I siuppose' it means that of the three cf)ii- nditions of prison life, he lias the lowest, the most uncomfort- able — the lowest perhaps would be a sufficient term to diisdi-ibe it; the langiiage is too strong; it was not AMitten by myself; it means, as I have stated, that, of the three •conditions here he has the lowest and, if you please, bitterest, although I think that is a very improper word to use in that comnectioai ; it means that his cell is furnished with a stu-aw bed and blankets, insteiad of sh(-e(s and a chair; that he hajs food the same constituents as the other grade, but he has no teaJ or coffee while he remains in that grade, he has no correspondence with rehitives while he reiiiains in that grade; he is subjpct. asi I described this morning, in that grade only to physical treatment; I suppose that would be a fair exposition of that text. Q. That is, in short, that he is subjected to the sieverest punish- ment that a comict, under the circums't'ances, could under the law be subjected to; isn't that about what there is of it? A. That is the way it reads. Q. I asOv you if that isn't about the meaning of it? . A. No, sir; the eeveresti punishment that a coinvict could under the law be subjected to — I think I could devise, if I was a Caligula, penal- ties that might, under the law, be more severe than any convict in this prison — Q. (Lntenrnpiting.) T wiisih to be fair with you, and I wish, if possible, you could explain just what this meains; if it means anything else than this, that the convicts that are confined in this institution which, you claim, is an institution wherein the 241 ocm-viots ajre to be riefoiranjed ; under wikait law or by wbat auitbolrity hai\-ie tibe maaagemjeinit or tb© euperiiiteindeiit a rigbt to say tbat tbe ooDivicts are subjeoted', tbat is, tbose im the convict grade, are iruade to suffer to tbe extireanie extent the sfeiTeiriitieBi of impiisom- mient; wbiat I wiamt to get ait isi this; bow isi it, if tbis inBttdrtution is qgtabliisbed for tbe piurppisie of nefotnmiiinig prisomerisi, tbat pris-, oners, under tbe managemenitj, aire maide to suffer tb© severiitAes of impriiaonnDent to tbe extenit wiblch you bave expreeisly declaned in tMs repoirt that they are isabjectled to; that is wbati I wiant to know? A. Tbe explanialtibn I gave you of the undue stinenigtb of language and the low oondiltaton of the men in the convict gradle is itbe flipst reply I wish to call your attention to witbiout repeaitiing it; now, as a meansi of refoiiiiation, there is fundanientally a diffei'ienice of grades, land where you bave a high grade, if you blave any diffeipence, you mustl have a lower one, and' the mien wbio' aire redti'Oed to the low grade aire noiti reducied rtherie to: pay them with retriiburtiive penialties for any lovent actis^ but they 'are neduiced thleine that itbef may be iSiurrounded with additional mOtiveei, the love of animal comf oirt — sincie the love of liberty has piroved unavail- ing; wie cut them off one thing after another until they move upward again for dinner or for comfort; on account of these animal comfonts they move up towards^ the standlard which we bave esitaiblished as the condition of tbedr release. Q. If this ^^iiole procesis is reformiaitoii'y why are not measuir'es adopted with reference to those in tbe lower gradle which would be likely to reform tbeiu instead of beins. jierhaps, more likely to make tbe inmates stubborn and unja elding? A. Tbe assumption is the reduction ol' a man and the deprivation of the comfoi'ts of an upper grade makesi him' more situbbom; we don't admit tbait; tbe object of bisi redbctilon lis for bis reformaitilon. Q. Yoiur itheory is the more sieveire imprisionment or punisib- ment, 'the probabdlity isi that the improvement will be moire rapid? A. Noi; I donft think that is a fair statement or inference from the language. ' Q. May be it is because I don't understand thisi refoinmatory pnooesa that I got this iimpreasioiii, but let me ask you tbisi; I aisk ' it more for my own inf ormiatiton, 'than anj'thilQg else, becajufie I have a peculiar notion of my own in reference to' it; haven't you found from jiour own experilenee, that in almost every ilnisitance when a piTjsioner bals been bronghit before you that you have found some- where in bis character some redeeming quality? A. N'one are all bad, none aae aU good, but a redeeming quality, some excellence I should prefer to siay every man posisesises whO' isi sane and not feeble-minded, some excellenee, be may be able to be a good father, a -good husband, and a, tfliief . 31 242 Q. Now, why is it, upon what theory do you claim, that where ymi find that vein of excellence nunidng through the character of inimiaAes why it isn't betlter to toiy lamd budid a man up, to refoim Mm by building upon that pairticular excelltence than' it is to subject a man to the abuse and hardsihips' which you haive refera-ed to? A. I don't undersitlanid that it in your mind when you say building up on that. Q. I meian refomung them, impax)iving them? A. Befonniag is a general teim; your ideas in relation to the rofoi-mation of criminalis are doubtless so immaitimed and oleair that yoiu woraid be able to tell me how you would commence building up on a SMigle trait of (-xcdlenee in a mian, thie balance of whose character is i^Tossly bad; that is a thing I want to know abtove aU thingsi; I have been trying to find it out for a gxeiat mamy yeans. Q. I think if I was undertaking to reform a man that I would adopt such a process as would be likely not to crush out and destroy the little good that was in him. A. T don't know that has ever been done in mr administration; the assumption a man reduced to the third grade has crushed out of him tha* little (xceUence \\'hich we ha:\'e discovered is an unwarrantable one; tliat is not true in any instance T know anything about. Q. Isn't is generally true that these convicts are men of a good deal of wUl and determination; rather strong-willed men.? A. Tlie opposite, altogether; they ai^e men without strength of char- acter as a rule, creatures of instinct, unstable as water. Q. I don't say it is true, but my attention was called to a case that struck me, for instance, a case where the inmate, when. I>rought before the court and interrogated with reference to his parentage, etc., claimed, out of respect for his mother's feelingsi, and so on, refused to disclose his mother's name, and it is claimed he wa.s punished; I don't say that he was, but take a case of that kind, would you think it would be proper, in order to inaugurate the reformatory system in connection with that person, to pun,ish him severely because he ^'as trying to respect the feelings of his mother; isn't that the evidence of one good trait ? A. The hypothetical case would call for one answer, and the actual case for quite another. Q. I bring that as an illustration ? A. If you assume that a criminal such as that one is, the most adroit one, accidentally falLs into a reformatory and is then actuated by the noble senti- ment he pretended to have, then I should say I would have treated him very differently from what I did this one, but that is not the case. Q. I don't say it is. A. I never would have had such an issue with such a man, such men rarely come to us; occasionally we 243 ■tind a man with, natural afEection, normal and stroDg, but as a rule it is a. minus quality, except as they can utilize it for the recovery of their liberty; I do not nieaiu to say by this remark prUsomer® are ge]ierall,\- devoid of natural afBection, but the natural affection they have does not hold thean with that strength to the ties and the duties of home and family that natural affection seems to affect in others. Q. I suppose a large number of inmates are persons who at least in their early yf^ars hardly knew what it was to be sub- jected or un.der the control of anyone ? A. A'9 a rule they have never known' of healtlrful control, prompt obedience. Q. One of 'the first efforts on the part of the management is to teach them to obey, to submit? A. Yes; the habitual con- duct of the man needs to be promptly arrested and new activities instituted. Q. Have punishments ever been inflicted to your knowledge for the purpose of obtaining confessions or ajdmissions of guilt with reference to any particular thing ? A. I have, in some instances, proceeded, for the purpose of securing testimony, when a, man refuses or neglects to give his testimony. By Mr. Oradg: Q. Wben he has denied the fact alleged, or denied knowledge, have you ever subjected him to physical treatment? A. If I have positive evidence of amyonle'iS guilt I desire no more^ so far as the change of grade and loss of marks is concerned; I have um-a veiled the net, find this man- tO' be guilty; so long as he denies his guilt he is not in any frame of mind! to progressi along the lines oi reformation; he is guilty <)f a lie;, he is living a lie every day; and the corruption, deterring effect of that upon his subjective character is serious; so lomg asi he does tha'^ he is in antagonism to the gorvemment here, and h& is semti here to be trained in obedience and loyalty to government; now, after due persuasio:^ and explanation, if he still denies, I say I don't want any information, but you can't get on here on that basis, you must begin from that point by truth tellingy and if you vdll not tell it on my persnasiong then I will see that you doi in some oitJher way; there are instances of that sort. Q. Have you ever subjected a man to- this physical 'treatment who denied the fact alleged, or denied any knowledge of it, on your belief that he knew, but without positive evidence that he knew? A. No, sir; without satisfactory evidence. Q. What would you call satisfactory evidence? A. It depends upon the casie; I would be perfectly willing to give you any case. Q. To go back to ttie case of an inmate momiltor, if an inmate 244 monitor stated th^ fact alleged, and! the prisioiier accused denied, knowledge of the fact, or denied the fact itself, would you sub- ject him? A. If those were the only facts of evidence I should not proceed in thait way. By Judge Gilbert: il Could you make a list of the number of convicts that have been sent to the insane asylum from this institution during the last six years? A. Oh, yes; easily. Q. Could j'ou also have it made in such a way that it will show what number was sent from the first grade; what number was sent from the second grade and what number from the third? A. Oh, yes, sir. Q. And the per cent which it would be for each grade? A. Yes, sir. ,Mr. Rathbone. — How far back did you 'wish us to look for the inmate oflficers? Judge Gilbert. — I would suggest four or five' years back. Q. I am requested to make another request, and that is for the benefit of the committee; ask if you could make a list of all of the inmates of the reformatory, say a month agO', or when this investigation opened, with their gi-ade and their erapl6yment? A. You want it drawn off from the books? Q. Their names thieir consecutive numiber, ithajt were m the reformatory on the twent;\-six1h of September, when this investi- gation opened? A. We can get that up. Q. And also the number that have been transferred to the State prison during the lasit six years, by name, and thel date of their transfers? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Craig: Q. I want to ask Mr. Brockway to put ui)on the* record now a statement of the grades with reference to labor, as Compared with the grades with reference to labor in the State prisons; as I understand the statute, it makes three grades relating to labor, the first grade has primary and paramount reference to the instruction and reformation of the prisoner, vHth little, if any I'lfwence to the economilciai featuries or fateitorsi in the quesitiion; the second gradfe relartles perhajps equiaJly to each matter, firsit the instbrucitibin of the prlistomier with reference to enabling him to support himself afiter h© itei disichiarged; and secomidly, to his maintenanoe in the prilsom. The third grade relaited primarily and principally to his madmiteniaince in the prison and the prbflts of the Stiaitie, very Mtltle, if any, refereoiee to his 245 iflstniction for Ms raaiintenianoe when he is dJuslcitairigieid from the pirisioin:; now, with ithiait undlepsltaindimg of the law, I uiiidieirisitiaiiixi the fact to be alao umider tWait law that in the State piriislODtisi, if the third grade is not exolusixely the grade the second' and thMl grades aire exclnisively in pnaicrtdteei, andl thlere are nonie priactioally or few,, if any, imdler the first grade; aisi I underisitand the fact to be in this neformatory, the revteaiaie is true; if the flrstl ginade isi mot exclusivei then the flreit and second gi'ades aT-e exclusive, and the Third grade does not come itii; is that yonr understanding, Mr. Brocikwiaif? A, Yes, sir. Q. If that rfeTerse order isi ithe fact, asi I umdemsitand it to be, and as you understand it toi toie, it would have lajni important bear- ing upon the compartaitive cost of miainrtienanice of thisi nefoimnatlolry and of the State prisonsi, the net cost OTer and aborre the earnings, and I wanted those facts toi come out clearly on the record while we laire on these subjectsi of a general' niartune, and imiport; that is onie of the important questibnsi which has been agitated in con- nectdlon with thesie complaintsi; you eiiniinatie 'ttue third grade where ithe classiflcatioa relates toi self maintemanoe after dds- ohairge; the Staite pirisons pwactiicaMy eliminate the first grade, where the 'principal and parajmiount ireiference isi toi self nDainten- ance after i discharge, without referenice to mainteDaamice in, the prison, and the revensie order makes a different problem aJ-ttotgether; there ane no tetrtms of conxpajriison for ithe net cost of this nefoirmiatory and the net cost of mainitenianoe of State prisons, unleeis you say thie revense order is legitimate, but the reverse order, it isieems to me, is rnheirent in the system of a. reformatory? A. The earnings here are incidfeaital; the eamings in State priHon® are piincipal. Q. I would like nevertheleasi, lais a matter of facti, toi have some comparison between the teachings; of the tradlas and industries to the inmates of this reformatory, and the teachings of trades and industries to the inmateisi of thie Auburn State prison, which I harve regarded asi the biest prison in its orgianizarttion of trades and indusitiries, and as to whether they are beitJter pnepared here for iself maintenance th'an they are or weire undte'r Mr. Durston in the Auburn State prison; j'ou can give the facts as to this pmison, what they are, that is, the number and variety of trades and oocujpatioms, and the degree of proficiency which they attain in thesie respective departments, lamd we will find out at the Auibuirn prilson the facts in comparisoni there; they ha^-e a great variety of tnades there? A. I suppose .the chainman appreciates the difference in the elficiemcy of instruictiftn in instructing in trades also; where the object isi to earn the value of the trade instruction is reduced to a miniimum, we have come toi feel heme 246 wMh. some excepitioos, two jnirpoisies caia hardly be incliidied wiiih. the beist advainitiage to instructdon anywheaie; so we kave turned over our trayde sohool very largely to tlie evemLng sessions; I hope jxni win aittemd on Mondiay evening, some of the tradesi aire yet pTMsued during the day; for instance, the molders' trade; this has incidental earnings, but the great mass of trade insitriiotion her© is without any regard at all to production, amid is caaiied on in the evening. Q. ^Vt the time of the investigation in Clinton prison, the great mass of occupation of prisoners was without any reference to teaching them to self support after they were discharged; I don't thinlc that was so at the Auburn prison; I think that is a ques- tion this in\estigating committee should inquire into as to wheliher you teach the trades an,d occupations here more thoroughly and completely than they do in ^Vuburn kState prison. Judge Gilbert. — 1 ^\■ould a.sk whether the instruction and cfticiency, etc., given here in tlie various trades taught, whether that is really a matter in question or dispute; I suppose about the only question that was really to be investigated and examined was whether or not the methods so far as the discipline is con- cerned were propei-, assuming that so far as the instruction that is given and the improvement that is made in the convicts, that that is conceded to be very complete ; I have rather conducted this examination upon that theory. Mr. Craig. — It is a very important question. Judge Gilbert. — 'It seems to m,e, if we are to enter into an cxiunination hea-e which will lead us into a field of comparison between what is accomplished here and what is -accomplished in the State prisons, we have undertaken a pretty large job. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Brockway seems to be tired, and if his exami- r.ation is to be continued further, we had better take a recess. Judge Gilbert. — I have assumed this reformatory was doing :i very valuable work, and the only question is as to, whether or not the methods adopted by the mana-gement and by Sir. Brock- way are as humane as they should be. Mr. Craig. — Do you wish to examine Mr. Brockway in this pre- liminary examination any further ? Judge Gilbert.— No, sir; Mr. Brockway and his counsel should understand this is merely preliminary, and will be regarded as a voluntary statement on the part of Mr.' Brockway, and as far as l)eing regarded an answer or any evidence with regard to par- ticular charges, that he ought not to be required to give any such evidence until evidence in support of the charges is introduced; a different course would be requiring a man. presumed to be inno- cent to prove his defense. 247 ' Mr. Oraig. — If Mr. Brockway wishee to make any furtlier state- ments or complaints with reference to these general matters of preliminary inquiry, he is invited to do so at the present time. Mr. Brockway. — I don't think I have an.ything to offer. You have drawn out very much, probably, in the examination of myself as a witness; hereafter all stajtements necessary to be made will oome out. Mr. Craig.— Then we have no further business for this evening. Adjourned to Monday, October 9, 1893. Monday, October 9, 1893. The committee met pursuaiut to' adjournment. • Presenli — • Same as before. Richard J. Murray, being duly sworn, teetiiied: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Whe^-e do you reside? A. Two hundred and four East Gray street, Ekniraj. Q. "What is ydur age? A. IVenty-six. - Q. What is your employment? A. Printer. Q. How long have you resided in Elmira? A. About five years. , Q. Have you at any time and in any way been connected with the Elmira refonnjatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what capacity? A. Ovei^eer of the printing department. Q. From what time to' what time? A. From the twenty-eig'hth ,oif March to fhe twenty-eighth of June. Q. What year? A. This year. Q. Were you through the variousi departments of the prison at times? A. Yes, ^ir., (}. Was your attentiorQ at any time called to the manner in which the inmates were disciplined? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was your attention flipst called to that? A. The midr die 0* latter part of May. , Q. In what manner or in what way was your attention called to it; what was it that called your attention to: it? A. I saw a young boy who had been paddled. Q. What was his name and consecutive number? A. Five thousand three hundred and fifty-five,, Murray. . Q. State what yoii saw with reference tO' that boy? A. Well, about the middle or latter part of May, there were several men in that department came to me and beggedi me to see if I couldn't get this young man into the hospital, which I told them I would 248 do; I had to take him out .of the compoeing^room of the depart- ment and put him in the press-room, becanse I saw he couldn't do his tai^k in there; he was so sick at the time; very sick; had a swelling under his aim about the size of half an orange, and looked a good deal like that; I told the men that came to me I would see the doctor about it, and the doctor used to come through every da^', and I took him out of tliei-e, placed him in the press- room, and he seemed to get a little beitter; and two or three days I had occasion to sit down and make out talking reports; one of them was against young Murray, for talking; and the follo\\'ing day there was runner came over from, the guard-room floor after Mun-ay and a young boy named St'eiucke; young Murray caane to me when the runner came and said at last he thou^t they were g-oing to ])ut him in the hospital; he thanked me very heartily for the many kindnesses I had shown to htm; and he went over iibout noon or :i little after dinner, and about 2 o'clock he came back and I hardly kne^' him; instead of going to the hospital he had been taken to the bath-room for this talking report \\hich I had sent in the night previous; hisi left eye was swollen black and blue, a ridge right down his cheek, all the way down ; I asked him \\here he had been ; he said the old' gen- tleman had taken huu to the bath-room, and Steincke wasin't vvvy much better; his right eye was swollen up all there; a big lump on his forehead ; then I learned it was from the talking report one of these two boys had got; they were taken to the batli-iXK>m; then I was taken sick myself — doing the whipping, and he got it rig'ht acTX)®s the face, and that was the cause of the ridge on his dheek. " Q. Did he say who whipped tdmi? A. Yes, sir,; he told me the suiperinrtiendenit had whipped him. Q. So far as you, know what had been the pihysicai condition of this young man just befoiie and whiaifc wias it at the time he was taken to the bath-room? A. Physically he was veiry much broken up; he was a fit subject for the hoiapiltai when he went to the bath-oTOom, I think; when I looked at that thing under his arm it nearly made me isick. Q. At (that timie what did you do. with ref,erenoe to resigning or leaving the reformiatory? A. A little while after that I resigned, and pending my resignation I was taken sick. Q. Why did you resign? A. I didn't like the' way things were going. Q. What do you mean? A. Young Murray's case, several oases t have seen around the yard. Q.-What oases had you seen around the yard? A. I saw one case; I don-'t know his, consecutive number; a. young fellow by the name of O'Laughlin, doing military duty, when I thought he ought to have been in the hospital. Q. What was the cause of that, that he ought to: be in the hospital? A. Just his looks. * Q. You aire, not a physicitoi? A. Noi; his looksi a couple of weeks before and at the time. Q. Did you send in your resignation before you were taken sick? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you afterwards withdraw it? A. Yes, sir. (i. Why did you withdraw it? A. Oh, well, I owed a good deal, and I had no regular situation down town, so I thought I would remain a little while longer. Q. Had you and !Mr. Brockway any misunderstanding about any bxisiness matter? A. Noi; not before that. Q. Have you since had some diffioulty with reference to busi- ness matters? A. Yes, sir. 252 Q. Did you ever call ihe aittention of the atteadinig piiysician, Dr. Wer, to young ^Muiray's conditiom? A. Noi, sk; I intended to do it st^veral days, but he went through too quick. Q. ^\Tiich was it that you claimed looked sick, O'Laughlin or Murray? A. O'Laughlin. Q. I supposed you were descr-ibing Murray's condition!; you also described O'Laughlin's condition? A. All the description I can give of O'Laughlin — he \\as not taken to the bath-room. Q. I am requested to a^sk you what there was in O'Laughlin's appearance that caused you to conclude that he was sick? Mr. Stanchfield. — That is objected to from our standpoint, on the ground the witness is not competent to speak. That, his condition i.s not attributable to any treatment' he received in the bath-roOTn. !Mr. Craig. — Tlie statement the witness gave was toi the effect that he snv,' this man in the military dirill and, in his opinion, he w:ig too ill to be there; not being an expert he can nioti give his opinion, but he may give facts, but he cerhaps the monitor or superintendent may be a party to a violation of the rule, and the inmate may get the discredit mark for it, may he not ? A. Yes, sir. 255 Q. And bytlie superintendents or monitors conversing or carry- ing on these conTersations, whioh are understood to be violations of the rule, may be subjecting the inmates to this discredit mark- ing ? A. There would be no danger of an inmate being marked for talking to the forreman of the depai-tment. Q. Suppose he should happen to contradict or in some way cross the supei'intendent or monitor while thus engaged in talk- ing, might he not tlien receive the diSicrediting mark, an.d isn't it a matter of a good deal of importance that, at least so far as the foreman and the monitors ai-e concerned, that they, themselves, should strictly observe these rules ? A. Yes, sir. Q. So as not to place the inmates in a position where thiey may receive a discredit mark; didn't you understand that to be so at tie time ? A. I did. Q. Were you disGhargfed by ilr. Brock way for the reason that you gave one of the inmates tobacco ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it true you did give tobacco to him ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew at the time that was a, violation of the rules ? A. Yes, sir; it wais. Q. Were you also dischai'ged ' for the rea'son that it was claimed that your relations with some of the prisoners or inmates was improper ? A. No, sir; that I never knew. Q. Was it claimed that the man to whom yoij gave the tobaoco was a sexual pervert ? A. I don't understand you. Q. That his practices were improper ? A. Yes, sir; I understand. Q. What was his name ? A. A. Smith; I don't know his number. , Q. Was he punished for any conduct or for anything that occurred between you and him, as far as you know ? A. When this tobacco was found on him he was taken to the guard-house, I believe, or solitary. (}. You don't know whether he A\as punished or not ? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. After the facts that you have referred to came to the knowledge of Mr. Brockway, he discharged you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. T am requested to ask if, under the rules, it was your duty to notify the authoritiesi of the sickness of inmates. ? A. I don't la].ow ; the doctor came through every day, and I supposed it was their duty if they were sick. (). Under the rules and regnlatioms each inmate had! an oppor- tunity to communicate with the physician? A. He did. Mr. Babcock. — ThaJt supposition is hardly fair. Mr. Craig. — I don't think it is proper; sitrike it out. , Q. Was it a fact that the inmates could communicate with the physioiaai if- they desired? A. Yes, mr; they could. 256 Q. I am requested to ask if either you or the monitors didn't each day send to soane superior officer the names of persons who claimed to be sick? A. The monitor did that. Q. Do you Ivnow. whether the monitor sent MuiTiiys name 'to the superior officer or not? A. I do not.. Q. Don't know anything about it? A. Xo„ sir. Q. You know you did not? A. No, sir. Q. Wasn't it your duty and didn't you generallj* do this, report to the monitor those who wei^e siciv or claimed to be sick? A. Xo, sir; they did that themselves. • ii. These monitors are placed in the rcwms where ithe men usually are employed? A. Yes, sir. (i. And placed _in siuch a position that they can observe what is going on with reference to the conduct, etc., of the inmates? A. Yes, sir, Q. In such a position that he has them under his eye? A. Ves, sir. Q. And if he notices anything wix>ng in the conduct, or any- thing indicating an inmate is sick, he has an opportunity to see it, and it is his duty to make a pi-opeir i-eport to tihie proper official? A. Yes, air. Q. Every day? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do yon know whether the momitoip saw or knew anything about Murray's conditiion'? A. He must have seen it Q. Do you know whether .the monitor knew or saw, the bunch under his arm? A. I do not. Q. Do yon know the name of the monitor at the time? A. He is not here now ; I can't think of his name. Q. Was his name Carroll? A. Xo, sir; it wasn't Carroll; Car- roll wa-s in tlie room at the time. Q. Was there anyone eLs<' who saw Murray's condition, or saw this bunch under the arm? A. He had shown it to the doctor, I believe, a day or two before thajt. By Mr. Craig: Q. Do you know it? A. X^o, sir; I do not. Mr. Oraig. — Then that is improi^er. Strike that ant. A. The doctor stood there with him ; I didn't see him show ithe bunch. Q. You say before he was taken to the bath-room you saw him with the doctor? A. Yes, sir. Q. Dr. Wey? A. Dr. Wey. Q. How long before he was taken to the bath-room did you see him with Drj Wey? A. About a week, I shoidd think. Q. Where? A. In the printing office. 297 Q. Was the doctor then going through, that departmemt for the purpose of observing the physical condition, etc., of the inmates? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Did the dootoi; at that time examine Murray'® pereon; at the time you satw talking to Murray did -the doctor examine his person!? A. Yesi, s.ir; I' saw Murray putting on hisi shirt right after talking to the doctor. By Mr. Oraig: . Q. That is proper; you saw him' putting on his shirt, you say? Ai Yes, sir. Q. I would like to ask the witnessi if the rules and regulations governing foremen were ever known to you? A. No, sir; I never was presented with a copy. Q. Was it ever stated to you by anyone what the rules and regulations were? A. Yes, sir, Q. Who sitated to you? A. The superintendent. Q. Did he sitarte to you it was your dtitiy not to give toibaoco? A. Yeisi, siiir. Q. Did he srtlate it was your duty not to talk' with tihe inmiates? A. Yes, islir. Q. Did ;he state to you it was your duty to repoirt inmates who were ill to the physician? A. No, isir. Q. Or to lany of the authorities? A. No, ,s4r; I thought thlat the mofnitor'a diuty. Q. Yoiu were aisked if it was claimed that you had any improper relatioins with one of the men at the time of your disohjajrge and as the groTind of your discharge, and you said you didn't know that it was so claimed;; I wish to aisk you if it is a fact 'that you did have any isiuch improper relatiofns? A. Only with the tobacco; anid I have talked to them. Q. That is 'all; you know what I mean by " improper relatioDS;" imptraper sexuial relations? A. I do niot. Q. What did you say then in answ,er to the questibe Whether it was claimed you had such improper relations, thiat you did not know? A. I thought you meant in the matter of talking. Q. I think it is due both to the witness as well as the admin- istration that he should be made to undersitaiDd that question; I don't know what evidence may come up from other witnesses hereafter on that point. Judge Grilbert. — I don't think theine is anything claimed on .either side there wais anything improper. Mr. Stamchfleld. — I think the evidence shows what we claim, that the man to whom he gave this' tobiaooo was known' to him to be 33 258 what I cMm was a sexual pervert, and snich inferemce am one might draw from that fact; that he has admitted thiait mnch. By Mr. Craig: Q. You descriJbed ihe injury upon the face of the man' Steincke; was he Ul? A. No, sir; he was not ill. Q. You may describe more fully the nature of the injury to the eye and face? A. Nothinig only his eye was black and blue, and a lump on his forehead. Q. How large was the lump? A. Abiout as big as a hickiOTy nut. Q. Was the skin broken? A. No, sir. Q. You mean by a lump a swelling there? A. Yes, sir. Judge Gilbert. — I am requested to put im proof in this connec- tion, the i^ecord or extracts from the record in the ease of No. 5355, John Mumay. Mr. Stanohfield. — That is our side^of the oaBie; isn't it? Judge Gilbert. — As I undeirstand it, if they see fit to introduce records for the purpose of oorroboiratinig the statement they may do ®o. Mr. Oralg. — That is right; can yoiu identify the page and book? Judge Gilbert. — lam asking for the piroduction of the original record; we want the conduct record iand hospital record with reference to this case, 5355, John Murray. Judson E. Spaulding, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside ? A. I reside at 504 Madison avenue, Eimira. Q. What is your age ? A. Twenty one. Q. Were you ever in the refonnaitory or conniected with it? A. Yes, sir. Q. As an inmate ? A. Yes, .sir. Q. T^en were you Gvsb placed in the refoirmaoiry? A. On the 25th day of September, 1892. Q. How long did you remain ? A. One year. Q. Are you now paroled ? A. I have done my duty; I am a United States prisoner. Q. You had a definite sentence for one yeair? A. Yps], sir. Q. Did you, while in the reformatory, know an inmate whose consecutive number was 5355, and whose name was John Mur- lay ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you recollect of an occasion when he went to the bath-- room ? A. Well, I couldn't swear to the date or what day it was, but I remember seeing this Murray go down several times to the bath-room; once upon a tame for while he used to go every two or three days. 259 Mr. Stanchfleld. — That we object to as hearsay, unless it was stated t/O the man in the presence of Spaulding by the superin- tendent or he accompanied him there; I don't see how he can testify, ■■ Q. How. do you know he went to the bath-room ? A. Because 1 -recollect seeing runners coming up for him and taking him down there; and once or twice I saw him coining up with a swollen eye; that is how I know lie went to the bath-room. Q. You say runners ? .V. Messengers. Q. How were persons usually summoned or required to go to the bath-room ? A. The report is sent in at night, and it is inves- tigated and sent to the general superintendent, and he looks it over and at noon, right after dinner, he sends a runner up to the place they are woi'king to take the man down. » Q. Who are these runners that you refer to ? A. They are inmates. Q. Are they monitors ? A. No, sir. Q. What did you see with reference to young Murray, his con- dition, etc., when eonring from the bath-room ? A. As I said before, the swollen eye assured me of his being in the bath-room. Q. Describe the swollen eye that you refer to ? A. It was right about heine. Q. (Mr. Craig.) Under the eye an.d on the cheek ? A. Yes, sir. Q, You say that his eye was discolored or bruised; describe that more minutely ? A. It was very red and swollen at the . time; of course it wasn't black at the time, but after a time it turned black; after two or three days. Q. For what distance below the eye was it black or colored ? A. Just about around here; about half an inch below the eye. Q. Was the eye swollen shut ? A. No, sir. Q. Was it swollen at all at any time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it discolored above the eye ? A. Not that I remember.' Q. The discoloration was below the eye, mainly ? A. Yes. Q. You speak of a bruise or cut upon the cheek or .side of the face ? A. Just about here on the cheek bona Q. The bruise or cut that you saw was below the eye ? A. Yes, sir; right at the side; right about here. Q. How long was that out ? A. I couldn't say how long it remained there. Q. WTiat was the length of it ? A. About three-quarters (st an inch. Q. Do you know about when that was ? A. I do not recol- lect; it was sometime during the month of March, I think. Q. Were yom there at the time when young Murray' was taken to the hospital? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long was it before that? A. About three weeks before 260 Q. Did you see liim upon an occasion after that? A. I did not. Q. When lie was on his way from the bath-room? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see him e\ery day after that to the time he was taken to the hospital? A. Not every day; I saw him once in a wliile, because he was in the same military company that I was. Q. Was he on parade every day from that time down to the time? A. Not exactly up to the time he was taken there, because I think he was in his room for two or three days; I think he was; I can't swear to it. Q.^Did you, upon any occasion, see a gash or cut in the side of his face, two or three inches long? A. Not two or three inchesi; I say I saw about three-quarters inch. . \ Q. The cut you saw was below the eye? A. Yes, sir; right about here on the side. Q. Did yo*u see any other persons or inmates coming from' the bath-room with bruises upon them? A. Yes, sir; I cam tell their names or numbers. Q. See them when they went td the baith-room? A. No, sir. Q. See them when they came out? A. Saw them when they came ont. si! Q. Where was you 7 A. I w^ either passing thnbugih theyai'd or,;,; on military days, they have military on Wednesday and Satur- day afternoons, and they bring them right from the bath-room to theii' companies. Q. How do you know these other.-* that you saw were just com- ing from the bath-room? A. Well, I don't know, but I, mistrusted that; Mr. Lazenby or Mr. ^Murphy takes them out from the bath- room, and, of course, when I saw Mr., Murphy or Mr. Lazenby coming out with them I mistrusted they came from the bath- room. Mr. Craig. — I think we have the facts from which we can draw our own inference. Q. These two gentlemen you refer to were the two parties or officers who usually took the inmates to the bath-room? A. From the bath-roOm. Q. When tmnates have been in the bath-room for any| purpose where were they usually taken? A. They weire taken iui the bath-roKMn right up next to the window. ^ Q. Being in the bath-room, where did these men take them to ? A. They were taken to their work unless they were so abused that they had to be laid up. Q. What bruises, or what did you see upon those persons, indi- cating that they had been in the bath-room? A. There were three or four — Mr. Stanchfleld.— I move to strilce out the last ^portion of the answer, " unless they were so aibused they had to be laid up." 261 Judige Gillbert.^Tliat should be striken out, I think. Mr. Craig. — If he knows he can tell afterward. Strike it ont in this form. , ' A. At the time I was working in the photograph department; [ was a retoucher; I was working in the operating-room a»nd the physical culture-room are all taken naked in three positions, their back, fropt and side; and there was one case I recollect well, a young man next to! me ; he was taken out of his cell after 9 o'clock and locked in the. guard-house; the nexib day he Went: to the bathj-ax)om; and he was laid up in hiisi cell, I think, for about two or threei weeks; I can^t nemember just noiw. By Mir. Oraig: Q. Whlait was the name of. ttaat man? A. I ooiuldm't say his naanie • Q. Do yon remember his niumben? A. No. ,Q. Do you know Msi oeH with reference to yourei? A. I think uiy cell was 49 and him was 48 ; it waiS' the next oeU to me any way; I remeuuber going by there; paradnig by to go to my oeU, aind this man was ia bed all the while and fed on mMk. By Mr. Gilbert: Q. What was the dlate? A. I couldn't neanembeir. ' Q. Abooit the date? A. I think it was in Mjairoh!, 1893; and in about two weeks he came up in the photognajpih gallery to go in the physical culture departmeooit and he told me. — Mr. Stanichifleld. — We object to thait A. Anyway I 'saw that his body was very badly bruised; his back, rig'ht in the hollow of hisi back he was all bmoike out. Q. Descirifbe the bruises? A. They were pimiples mostly, and disieoloired a little not very much. By Mr. Oraig: Q. You have seen O'lier backs broken out where there was no injury? A. Yes; I saw one man very badly bruised named O'Brien. , Q. Yoiu have seen backs broken out in pimplesi where there . was no injury? A. Yes, sasr. Q. And on other inmates? A. Yes, sir. Q. I isuispect there are a good many of tinem? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Where, they haven't been paddled? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was it in the appearance of the p'imples or breaking out on the back of this man which imdicated to you that they were the result of padidling or injury? A. His back was all red, and I asked the man if he was Bike that befiore he went down; his 262 back was all red and biack was all broke out from the hollow ol the back up to about here, 'the middle of the ehouldens; he was taken out of the foundry and put in the physical, culture clasBi. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Was his bajck discolored, black and blue? A. Noi, sir; yerj red. Q. Simiply red? A. Yes. Mir. Stainohfleld. — Does the chairman leave in the response to youir inquiry he told him so? Mr. Oraig. — No; strike thait out. Q. How far around his person did tlhie discoloratioin or rednjess appear? A. Up the two sidest Q. How far around his peanson, from one side clear to the other? A. I¥om one side to the other; yes^ sir. Q. Was the discoloration iu sitrflpai, Uke? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any other bruises upon him? A. No, sir. Q. Did you nO'tLce or see any other inmate 'thait had bnuises upon hun that you saw coming from, the bath-room? A. No, Siir; as I said before I have seen toar. or iive but I don't know their muues or niumbers; I have seen them coming out with swollen eye. Mr. Oraig.— Where it is so indefinite as tihait^ of ooiurse, it is axitaissible if we have time to take it but it don't seem worth while to pursue it Q. Haive you ever been ia the bathHroom yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Ever been paanis(hed there? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times? A. Once. Q. IV)r What? A. For quarreMng with a miani I wa;s working with. Q. Were you paddled? A. Yes', sir. Q. How many blows? A. J had fom* blows acrosis the small or hollow of the back and two across the eye. Q. State the facts? A. As Mr. Brockway was paddling me I turned my liead Mke this; I tuimed my head twice and he struck me across the head twice. Q. With what ? A. Strap, paddle, the same thing he paddled with. Q. Whait did he say about the time he struck you across the eye ? A. " Keep your head around there." Q. How many blows did he strike you besides the two he struck you across the face ? A. Four. Q. Did he leave any marks upou your face ? A. No, sir; except my face was very red for about four or Ave days. Q. Over what part of yom- face did he strike you ? A. The strap took me right around here; right across the cheek bone. 263 Q. Strilce you with the same strap that he struck your back with? A. Yes. Q. What marks, if any, were left upon your back ? A. My: back was black and blue for a week or more, a week or ten, days. By Mr. Oraig: Q. I would like to have the witness point here where he means by the back ? A. Small of the back, right here. (2. Right above your hips ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you stripped ? A. Y'es, sir; I wasn't stripped naked; my coat and vest werp off; my pants down and my shirt pulled up. ' Q. So that the blows were upon your bare person ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How were you placed, what position were you placed iu when the spanking was given ? A. I was placed standing like this, and Luke Halpin held my head like this, and Mr. Murray, or Mui'phy, and Sample stood behind me; Sample pulled up my sliirt while he stood there paddling, and I had my hands up like this. Q. Raised above your head ? A. Y'es, sii Q. Were your hands resting upon anything ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you punished in any other way during the time you were tliere ? A. No, sir; except taken down, in the red siiit for claiming to be sick. i , Q. Did you ever photograph a man who had rings fastened into his penisi? A. I didn't photograph the man niyself. Q. Do you know his name ? A. I do not. Q. You saw the rings ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know, how they came to be placed there ? A. For abusing himself, I suppose. Q. Y'ou don't know who put them there ? A. He told me Dr. Wey put them there, Mr. Craig. — It isn't competent, if it is objected to. Dr. Wey - can say. Mr. Stanchfleld.— I don't lUce to keep objecting. Mr. Craig.— Strike out what he told him. and take what he saw and heard. Q. How were Ihese rings fastened ? A. They were fastened right through the head and skin; three rings right through the iK^ad and ^Idn and then a large ring through the tlrree small lings to keep thetn together. (>. Did yom see others who had similar rings ? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Stanchfleld.— t>oes the committee hold that is legitimate? under any of these charges, the method of treatment adopted to prevent masturbation ? 264 Mr. Oaig. — Whether it is justifiable or not would be another question, but whether the facts should appear or not would be a question; I think we ought to admit the facts. Judge GrUbert. — I suppose the reason why I am requested to ask these questions is, it is claimed they constitute a part of the evidence relating to the manner in which prisoners were dis- ciplined, and then the question whether it is proper treatment should be another matter. Mr. Stauchfleld. — This isn't discipline; this is' surgical treat- ment to preveinlt masiturbation. Mr. Craig. — That would be for fui-ther evidence to show. We take the facts so far as this witness knows. We can't know whether it is justifiable until we know the facts. Q. What, if anything, do yoiu know with reference to other inmates being severely punished while you wei-e an inmate of the leforjjiatoay ? A. Do you mean in this way you. speak to me about ? Q. In any manner? A. I remember inmates being punished severely, but I don't know the reasons. Q. What, if anjiMng, do you recollect of having seen ^\'ith reference to bruises upon others who had been in the bath-room? A. I hadn't seen any only what I photographed; what the young man photographed that I saw him photograph. Q. Did you photograph others than the ones you have men- tioned? A. One man I recollect well; I don't know his number; his name is O'Brien. ii. What bruises did you discover upon his person? A. His back was all broke out Q. That is the one you testified to before? A. No, sir. ilr. Craig. — Men whom he don't identify I don't thinli it would be proper to take evidence, unless he knows the bruises were the result of paddling; if he identifies the man we can continue the inquiry further. A. The other man named wasn't O'Brien; I think it was McGupptn. Q. Describe the bruises you saw on this man's person? A. Wlien this man came up to be photographed he was just as straight and good health before he went down as I am now, and when he came up he stood like that while his picture was being taken; I thought he was only fooling so T asked him if he would stand up straight. Ml'. Stanchfield. — I object to that. A. .\11 1 can say the back was ven- much broke out. By Mr. Craig: Q. How do you know it was the result of paddling? A. 1 know the young man was in just am good health and his face was as 265 , smooth, as mine is, and when he oame up there he was badly broke out on the face and on the back. Q. How lohg was it| after you said he wais in good condition? A. J know he was laid in his cell for about two months. Q. How long did j'ou obeierve him in as good condition as you were, and then you obseiwed be was in bad condition? A. I had been there from September lo January, and I remember, the young maai. Q. You said you obsei'ved on one occaision he was in good con- ditiota when he oam.e up to bephotographied? A. Yesi. Q. You remember a subsequent Occasion when he was in this .condition you describe? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the interval between the two occasions? A. Before he came up therfe I supposed — ^.' Q. (Interrupting.) I don'tj wamt your supposition); what was the interval of time between the two occasions? A. For about two months. ' Q. Two months between the time when you observed him in good condition and the time you observed hin^ with these injuries? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't know what occurred in the meantime? A. No, sir. Q. What do you mean by breaking out? A. His back was| all covered with very large pimples. Q. Did he strip in the room? A. Yes. Q. You spoke about his face; was that broken? A. Yes, sir. Q. Pimples? A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you know that was the i-esult of paddling? A. WeU, I don't know. Q. It don't 'seem to me that is worth pursuing. Judge Gilbert.— ITnless he saw som^liing upon his' person that showed the maai had been bruised. By Judge Grilbeirit: , Q. I lam requested to ask blow do you know youn own back was black and blue? A. Because I could see i* in the lookinig-glase and other parties isipoke tJoi me about itt ae I was down taldng a batiL Mr. Baibicoek. — That we object toi. Mir. Craig. — Yes. Q. After yoiu were disichargied from.: thtei reflormlartx)iry you went into erapiloymient; here in the citry? A. Yes, silr. Q, In order to obtaim employment did you represent to your employer that you were just from Boston? A. No, isir. Q. Or fk)m some other plaice? A. Yes^ sir; I did; I represented I was from i^forwicb, CKmn. a* 266 Q. You didn't let him know yoiu had ever been an inmate of rhe refoTmatory? A. No^ sir. Q. When you left were you in. the conricit graidte, the lower grade? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Were you in thaA graxitei nearly the whole tune you were here? A. I was in tlialt grade for about eight months all togetlieir. (l During that entire tiuie you \>ere only punisbed ouca? A. Yes, sir. Q. What we^e you pumshed for? A. Quairreliiig and fighrting. Q. (Mr. Oraig.) Can you give me liLe name of the man tiiat had lingB on his penis or the numiber? A. No, sir. Q. (Mr. i^tauchfleld.) Or where hi® cell was located? A. No, sir. By Mr. Craig: Q. Why were you reduced to the lowest graite? A. Tte first time I was reduced on the twenty-first of Matrch for quaipreling and fighting; the second time I wais reduced for claiming to be siick; I was put out on th.e reservoir and the work wiais mx)ire tihani I could stand, piokjax and shovel all day, and it knocked me out and I couldn^'t stand it, so I laid in. Q. I wiE a«k you some question® which yon may have tiie privilege of answering or not as you see fit; on what charge were you cdnvicted w'hen you were sentenced here? A. For embezzlement. Q. Was it true or false? A. True. Q. You did embezzle? A. Yesi, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. I am requested to ask the committee if the wiltneesi would be permittbed to sitate the circumstances briefly? Mr> Craig. — I didn't know but it was perjury; ilt isn't a fact thiat would affect his credibility so' much as if he was convicted of perjury; I don't think we ought to taike the tiime tio go into the ciiioumHtianjces; he says it was true., Q. You migh-t briefly sitate then? A. I was running on the road ait the time; I was stopping in Troy, N. Y., and the general agent for the house I was traveling for came tO' see me; he got on a drunk; I traveled around with him for a <\yev\^ Iceeping him away from the officers and he got sO' drunk I thought the best thing I could do would be to get him arrested, and he goit arresited FriJdiay morning, and the next day I went down to^ see ham and someb^y told me they saw him going down with a swollen eye; I though/t to myself he had been arrested; I went over to the jail and I saw hSm; while there he told me to go to t!he poBtt-oflce and mi get Ms miail and answer all Ms bufiimesisi letters; of corarse, I was pather ttard up ait the tim,e; I haid been in Troy iwo' weeks and no mooney coming in and thiere wias a letter camie there from Pitts- field, MaiSKdchnisietts, with: a poistal mote of sixty-twoi doUiars and fifty cenfbs, and I cashed the clheck' and used it myself; I wient over and told Mm. abfaut it m quick an I used it and lie didn't say anytlMng, but I went up to the jnidget ajid I got Mm out of jaal, and thJe next day I wais ai'triestied. V Mr. Oaig. — I didn't laisk the witness the question to fecredlt him, tou/t I wished to knoiw whetiher hie was convicted of of perjury, that might be a presumption stronger thjan anything t'ise against Ms credibility. , Q. What is your height and heft ? A. I think I am five fee* eight inches, or four inches ; my weight is 107 pounds. Q. You were set to work with picls-ax and shovel ? A. Yes, sir; for five weeks. ' Q. Were you degraded or put into a lower grade for disre- spectful conduct to your officer ? A. No, sir; not the last time. Q. At any time ? A. The first time I went down for quarreling with an inmate; the second time I went down for claimiug to be sick. Judge Grilbei-t. — I offer in evidence, from page 5355, conduct ledger F: John Murray, received June 14, 1892, reduced to second grade November 1, 1892; in Xo. 4 D, January 14, 1893; in No. 4 H, February 22, 1893; in No. 4 D, March 7; iu, No. 4 D, April 28; died in hospital, 2.30 a. m., June 10, 1893. Mr. Oaig. — Those entries are in evidence. And the whole page is in evidence for anything either party may wish to refer to it for. Consecuti\e hospital register begins October 1, 1891; No. 103, John Murray. Judge Gilbert. — One hundred and three indicates the number of deaths ? Mr. rioppe. — No; the running number of the admisBion to hos- pitals; Jolifu Murray, 5355, admitted to hospital May 30, 1893; died June 10, influenza and pneumonia. ;Mr. Craig. — That is in evidence. Mr. White. — I suggest we call the inmate Steincke, who was mentioned here. That will complete the evidence. y\r. Craig.-— All right. With reference to the examination of inmiata^ it had occurred to the comanititee that all officers or emploves connected with the reformatory should be absent from the room. Of course the counsel, Mr. Babcock and Mr. Stanch- field should be present. They will take care of the case, and of course the evidence will tihen be known to 'those who are 268 employed or in interest, but tliey should not be presient ait tte time of the examination of an inmate witness. Dr. "Wey. — Does that include the managers:? Mr. Oaig.— I thinlv so. If necessary you can recall the wit- ness after the oflflceits of the administration know the testimony. Emmet Hildebrant, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside ? A. At Breezeport, Chemung county. Q. What is your age ? A. Thirty-nine. Q. WTiat is your employment ? A. I am a horseshoer by trade. Q. Were you evesr in any way connected with the Elmira Stiate Keformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what capacity ? A. I was instructor in the blacksmith- ing department for a time, and a portion of the time .special officer. By Mr. Craig: Q. What do you mean by special officer ? A. Assist the transi- fer officer in transferring inmates. Q. To State prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Y''ou can specify as nearly as you can the various positions which you filled while connected with the reformatory ? A. I was instructor in the trade school, but during the time I was special officer I was doing dnty in the various positions, wherever the institution needed me, and were short an officer. Q. Specify some of these pai-ticular positions which you held ? A. I had done guard duty on the wall, keepers' duty on the stand in the difflerent shops ; I have done yard duty, patrolling the yard, reliev- ing other officers. Q. When « ere you first connected with the reformatory ? A. I came here in the early part of July, 1888. Q. And continued to what time ? A. The most of the tune until last Februaiy. Q. Were you, during a i>art of the time, employed near the bath-room ? A. Jv'ot ^ery near, only to do duty on the south bk»ck, as it is teimed. Q. "^^liile performing duty near the south block, as it is termed, what, if anything, dfi you know with reference to inmates being punished in the bath-room ? .Mr. Stauchfleld. — I suppose that calls for what he knowsi Q. What vou saw and know '.' A. I have never been in the bath-room A^hen the spanking was going on; I have simply seen theui go in and come out. 269 Q. WTiiat, if anything, did you hear while they were in there ? A. I have heard some conversation going on inliile the spanking was being done. Q. That is, in the bath-roona ? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. Can. you repeat any portion of the conversation ? A. No, sir; I could not; as the doors are usually elosfed between the south block and the bath-room. Q. WhJait did yoiui hleair that yon clan speicify or describe? A. I think I have heard the soiund of the strap, as they were being spanked; nothing further or conversation. Q. Any outcries or anything of that kind ? A. Yes, sir; on 9ne or two occasions I have. Q. Thai is what we want to know. A. That is all I have heard. * Q. What were the outcries that you heard ? A. The inmates would cry out as they were being spanked, and Mr. Brockway talking to them. '' , Q. Can you describe the outcry ? A. Nothmg more than a child would cvy out, while being punished. Q. Did you hajve anything to do in transfeirring the inmates, some fifty in number, to Auburn prison about January first last ? .V. I think I did go over about that time; yes, sir. Q. Have in charge about fifty inmates ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were many of those inmates that had been employed or acted in the cajiadty of monitors and paroled officers, etc. ?■ A. Y'es, su'; there were some of them. Q. Do you knoM' about how many of them had acted in the capacity of paroled officers ? A. I think about foilrteen; possibly sixteen. Q. Do yoiu know what was 'thjedr ranik asi piairole officers!? A.' I could not tell all of them; there was a major, or possibly two; some captains. Q. When you speak of majors and captaiins and so on, you are speaking of them as ofl^cers connected with the military organi- zation ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell in what capacity they acted as officers propei- of the reformatory ? A. They wei'e monitors on the sitand in the shops and they helped the usual number of citizen officers in, tiildng the count, etc., about the same duty as the citizen officers. Q. While employed here what, if anything, have you seen ^\'ith reference to bruises or indications of an inmate having been punisihed in those casesi where tnmmtesi had been; to the bath-room and on their return, and that you saw them on their return. ? A. I have never seen the inmates stripped to see any bruises from the effects of the paddle; I have seen several with eyes blackened; nothing further than that. 270 Q. Coming from the bath-room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Persons thai, when they went in the bath-room, their eyes were not blackened ? Yes, sir. Q. About ho^A- many have yon seen coming from the bath-room in that condition ? _ A. Possibly not more than two or three that T can call to memory at present. Q. Can you name these persons? A. The most of them, although I remember their faces I could not recall their names with the exception! of one, Wiley, who worked in the blacksmith shop. Q. Do yoai remember his consecutire number? A. I do' not.. Q. About when was that? A. Sometime during last winter; the early part of the winter; I oonldn^t tell the exact diate. Q. What did you notice with reference to the general condi- tion of the inmates when they flret came from the bath-room? A. Sober appearance, and seemed to behiave much better for a time; it changed their appearance somewhat when they ca-me OTit. Q. What, if anything, did you see with reference to officers or others aiding them, helping them as they came out of the bath- room? A. I have seen the officers' in looking them up having them by the arm as they came out of tie bath-room. Q. To -what part of the prison, were they usually taken 'after leaving the baith-room? A. I have only noticed them taken to the south end of the south block and relocked in the room. Q. What are those rooms called? A. They are common rooms OP cells, the same as any others. Q. ^Tiat. if anything, do you know with refenenoe to inmates being taken to the solitaries and locked up there? A. I know very little about that. Q. Do you know anything about it? A. I know they are taken there at times, but I :^•as only on duty there once when they were in the solitary. Q. How long a time were those men' kept there that you refra* to now? A. I could not say as to that. Q. Do you know about how long they were kept there? A. I do not; several days, perhaps. Q. Do you mean to say several days? A. Yes, sir. Q. Continuously^? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what manner were they confined there? A. The man I saw was handcuffed to an iron rod on the side of the room. Q. Was there anything in his appearance or conduct indicat- ing he was then insane? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know for what reason he was piit there? A. I don't know from observation, only what I have heard. 271 Q. Can you get at anything definite; can you state anything definite with reference to the length of time he was there? A. T could not; no, sir. Q. Do you ]v,now, of your own knowledge, that whUe he was there the attending physician visited himj daily? A. I do not. Q. Do you know anything of your own knowledge, whether or not the attending physician directed what his food should be while he was there? A. I do not. Mr. Onaig. — You don't know he was tlhere moirie liian one day? A. I could not say; I only know he wais thiei-e th.e day I was on duty. Q. I thought you ^\•ere referring to the one that was there several days; was there any other prisonier that you refer to that was there longer, as you recollect it, than one day? A. No other one that I oould swear to from observation, because I wan only on duty there occasionally a day or part of a day, but I don't know how long they were in there. Q- Did you, at any time, have con\-er8ation with Mr. Brockway while you were engaged here, with reference to the manner in which the prisoners were treated? A. No, sir; Mr. Brockway rawly appnoachied the officers in regaii-d toi those mattersi, as there were rules laid down for the oificers to work on. Q. Did Mr. Brockway freguently go through the prison, the various departments? A. Yes, sir. Q. Looking after the immatleisi? A. Yesi, sir; I have often notioed him gojng through ithe inistitutaion. Q. Did the boia^id of maaiagement frequemtly go through? A. I have sieen them, go ithrough. Q. Did they frequently go thJrough while you Were' an officer here? A. I could mot sw^ar they frequeiirtly went through. Q. Did you have conversiatians with the firstl and second asBOistJamts or principal keepers with reference to the prisomers and the manlier in which they were treated? A. Yes^ efer; I have. Q. And other officers: in charge of the prisoneirs? A. Yes, air; it was la oommion oiacumence for the officerei toi converse together about the work. Q. Did you have convensatitoms with McLaa^^hliln' and the Keeper Winnie? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. In thoBie conversationisi was the matiteir of discipline — Mr. Sifcamchfield. — We oibjeot to it if in the absience of the superinttemdent. Mr. Craig. — It would 'be' aidmiseible as binding th'PKip men themslelveis for ithieir part in the administirajtion and' nothing else; in order to bind them you want to fix the date. Judge Gilbert. — I will pu* thJe question m one suggested. 272 Mr. Onaiig. — I know you aire readimg oivea* writfcten interiroigajtloiries handed tup to you; I suggest you inject a question of your own as to thje date. Q. I AviU put the question 'a® suggestted; did you ftiequently have convensiaJtions with the keeper, McLaugMilni, land Keeper Winne, in reference to instamices 1882, that the general practice in relation to paddling was the same before 1882 as since 1882. Judge Gilbert. — I think the counsel upon the other side should raise the question squarely and the committee should now deter- mine squarely as to whether or not the report of the legislative .277 committee is to be a dividing line with, reference to ihe manage- ment of the refoirmatory so far as Mr. Brockway and the board of the management are concemM. Mr. Craig. — The dividing line of this inquiry ? Judge Grilbert.— Of this inquiry. My idea is the inquiry is not for the purpose of determining whethei- or no Mr. Brockway's conduct has been improper or the management under the board of managers has been improper for a period of five or ten yeaaS, or since 1882, but has the entire management of this institution been Iii-oper or improper, has it been of such a character that the Legis- lature oughit to see that isiomie piropen dhamge waisi made or somje propeiii saifeguardis^ were orieateid tlhat would pwevept' the abuses which; may be found to wn this whole thing open to you and virtually invited investigation, and the people are commanding ujyon the other side an, investigation; it is' the duty of this committee to make it, thorough, and let this investigation be the end of the whole thing. As T understand it, there has been two or three other investigations, but not very much has been accomplished; now, it seems to me that under the circumstaaices that this iaves^ tigation should be complete, there should be nothing left out, whether it is within the last ten years or during the first three or four years of Mr. Brockway's administration. Mr. Babcock. — I only desire to say a word, that this is not strictly a legal question now before the board, but one of policy and economy, saving of time and limiting inquiry. If this insti- tution has been, in its discipline, proper for the last ten years, I think the Legislature, the Stat6 board, would be satisfied with a report from this committee that the management has been proper and the discipline correct for the last ten years, and that there can be no apparent necessity for this committee to determiae v^'hat the management is by going back later than 1882. It seems to me to be sufficient. It is not a legal question, it is one of economy and time and strength to be determined by the com- mittee. You can see a ten-year inquiry ought to determine the general character and the detail character of the management. Mr. Craig. — With reference to the suggestion that this com- mittee sbould go behind the last legislative investigation on the ground that this investigation should be as thorough as possible, that very grouud was the basis of the preliminary suggestion of the investigating committee that the examination should be limited to the time of thei legislative tavestigatioin, in order that ithe time being reasonably limited more attenition could be 280 giren to recent ttransactionsi, and to those which, are relatively and indefinitely of more importaoioe. The ultimate points of any such inquiry as is now before us are the general aidministratiou and the general condition at the present time. In order to show those general facts relatimg to the present time we have toi go back for a reasonable length of time, that is, in the nature of pa'oof. Now, as to the legislative investigation being in the nature of res adjudicata, or conclusive upon this ootamittee, we think there can be nothing in such a position as that, for the reason tliat we are not in court. If that was an investigation! by a court of the same jurisdiction, and this investigation by a court very likely that would be true, but, of course, those rales of court and rules of law do furnish analogies which are very suggestive in investi- gations of this kind, and there is a further analogy, namely, statutes of limitatioa A\hioli are ai'bitrary, but: which have reasons which are not arbiltraiy underlying them; they are not arbitrary in this sense, that they are intended to be statutes of repose, statutes limiting the tune beyond which inquiries sliall not be made, for the reason suggested' by the counsel for the reforma/tory, Mr. Stanchfleld, that som:e of the proofs may be gone, that is one of the reasons. The committee desire to give the benefit of the doubt to the prosecution have come to this conclusion, tha/t' if it is the intention of the prosecution to show what is here conceded, 'there is no reason for it; it is conceded, and that is the end of it, namely, that the same forniB of pad- dling and the same general practicesi relating to it in respect to severity, and in all other respects, were true, before the last legis- lative investigation in 1882, that the proofs that can be made since 1882 will determine what were the facts before 1882. If the prosecution intend simply to show that thewe is no reason for distracting the attention of this committee and diverting its attention from the more maitetial things toi that period, regard- ing which the fuU concession has been made. If it be the intention of the prosecution to show that the practices prior to 1882 were more severe, then we don't care to hear that, because it would be in favor of the insititution; it would simply show there has been a gradual amelioration, but if it shall be stated by counsel, by the Attorney-General, that he is advised and expects to show thart; the practices before 1882 was less severe, and that there has been a gradual increase in severity since I882' we think, possibly, that might be pertinent to the general end of this investigation, and we would receive general proofs, as the Attorney-General has indicated, not going too much into particu- lar caeesi relating to the period prior to 1882, for the purpose of showing that the practice then was less severe and there has been a gradual increase of severity since. 281 Judge Gilbert.— I can only say in answer to wbat lias been stated by tbe chairman, tbart so far as the oharaoter of the proof and extent of the proof that is to be submitted, I receive my information, of course, from those who are prepairing or arraag- ing the proof for this prosecution, and I can only speak from the information which I receive from them. But allow me to sug- gest this in reference to what the chairman has stated in rela- tion to the sitatute of limitations or statute of repose, that the chairman will remember that this trusit, or the capacity in which Mr. Brockway has beera acting is a trust capacity; he is repre- senting the people of the State, he is holding whatever authority he holdis here as their representative; he holds it ta trust for ' them, and so far as that trust is concerned the statute of lunita- tions never runs, at least so lohg as the trust exists, and when he comes to account to his principal he is required to account for everything from the beginning to the close of a trust,- and that is just what I think he is required to account for here. Mr. Craig. — If it has been an account stated you don't go behind that ? Judge Grilbert. — No. Mr. Craig. — Perhax)s the l'egislativ,e invelstigation could be regarded as an account stated. Judge Gilbert.— ift'hat is not by any legal authority which makes it a fixed bar. Mr. Craig. — Oh, no; only am analogy. Judge Gilbert. — The inquiries I am requested to make relate mainly to this, as I take it from reading them over, that they are intended to contradict the statements made by Mr. Brockway in the first place that he never has confined or allowed any inmate to be confined in a solitary or cell chained as in a solitary, beyond three or four days, if I recollect his statement, four days. What they propose is that he has confined them in the solitary and chained there, for a period of over ten days continuously. Mr. Craig. — We think, if you are going to show greater severity before 1882 than since, it would be a fact bearing m favor of the administration, but if you are going to show the severity has increased since, it would bear against the administration, and this last part we will allow you to show. If you wish tO' show facts contradicting Mi'. Brockway, we wUl allow you to show that independently, but not go into a general inquiry relating to the prior facts, except, first, to contradict Mr. Brockway, and, second, to show that the discipline since the year 1882 or the legislartivB inquiry has been gradually increased in severity. Those two podn'ts we wUl allow you to show by appropriate evidence. Judge Gilbert. — Suppose it should be proved that the severi'ty of the punishment was unauthorized by law prior to ten years, 282 and that that kas continued right along, but though m>% increased ? Mr. Craig. — We have the concession. Judge Gilbert. — Only in one particular; that is in reference to the paxidling. air. Craig. — How is that, Mr. Stanchfleld ? 1 don't think you could make concessions as to the knocking down and all that. We think, if you wish to show anything contradicting Mr. Brock- way or those particular facts which do not enter into that stipu- lation or concesision, we will allow them to be shown^ and that he has, instead of simply knocking the pi'isoners, as he states, or hitting them with his bare hand or with his hand closed, he has ioiocked him down and matters of that kJmd, and a® I am informed that kind of evidence will be followed up by showing that that method of treatment has been continued dluring Mr. IJrockway's entire management. That is what I aim informed. air. Craig. — Not only prior to, but since ? Judge Gilbert. — Prior to and since. air. Craig. — Why not show it since that period and take the concession ? Judge Gilbert. — Perhaps for this reason the prosecution don't wish to take that position for this reason, th&/fc they are not impressed, or do not believe, that while the reformatory methods have been going on successfully with reference to the character of the inmates, that it has been going forward equally success- fully with reference to character, disposition, etc., of Mr. Brock- way, and if Mr. Brockway indulged in those things some ten year& i.go the fair presxunption is he indulges in them now. Mr. Oraig. — You mean to make it a matter of prestumption since that time from the proof given before ? Judge Gilbert. — No, sir; proofs all along the line. By Judge Gilbert: Q. While you were employed h&ve you have seen mem chained to doors of their cells? A. Yesi, isdlp. Q. Foir what length of tilmie continuoiulsly? A. Oh, anywhiere ^from a few days up to eight or ten: days. Q. You now reoaUeot of inisttianicieia whiewe ywu ktotoiw thiajti thley were cionflnied in thait manner continuously fote a pieiniiod, of eigM to ten days? A. I know centain cases; whether tihey were confined conitinuially that I couldn't say because I wasn't thlerie conftdnually, but the supposition at tiha* time. — Mr. Staniohfleld. — That is objected toi Q. You cam sttiate what you saw, the frequenioy with which you saw them; in that conditibn? A. I would siae tihem every diay ; my businiesB called mie in itheilr vicinity every diajy, ' 283 Q. "WlualtJ iniditaatioii did you, see mdicaAiiinig ttat tihjey liad been kept contttilnaiioiuBly in tlmlt comdilion? MJi". Standhfield. — We oibjeciti tJoi itjiait Mr, Babiciack. — Tlxe witmeslsi ihlaisi sitated he didm't fcmoiw. Mb. Oriafilg. — He is mow asked for the flacto teadng om ttihait qnes- tibm, peirtaps it waiS leadimg to eay indSicarting, tihaitl, biat facts ueilaitSliig to the questioin of the Itengtth of the contiiniajice in the cell, "wlhat yora. saw andl lieaird reliaibiinig to tlhiajt quesrtloiiL A. T!hie indlcartioiiis were from the way they li'ad to go to stool was to sttajid in thle isame poisitiom they were chiained to the door. By Mr. Crailg: Q. How do yoQ know tjhajt? A. I saw it; mlaniaged in the same way to get thedip paints down and, stood there. Q. Did itlhey have a stool a* aiU? A Yes, siiir; when th^ went to stool. Q. BDow majiy timesi did you siee thiait? A. I dkm't know as I cam iteU; I saw it sieveriai difteneniti times. Q. Wlilarti oapaicity wane yon on the hiall when you saw those things? A. I was a meohainic. Q. Wlien you saw them in the cell from day to day ? A. I was a mednamic. Q. Doing woirik? A Doing woirk. Q. Wlhiat was tWe woirik!? A. Doing all the iron work; I bmlt the stadiTs,' diooinsi, railings. Q. Thait was mear the cells? A. Yes, sir. By Jndige Gilbeirlt: Q. You say stools; they have a vessel or amythiQg of that kind whMi they could use? A. I ddn't see any. Q. Desciribe the majmneu in which! thi^ answered the daMs of nature? A. They stood thane as a koirse or any cattle wo^uld. Q. (Mr. Gnajig.) Wilthout any stool? A. Yes, sir. M*. Qraig. — I asked] youi if theme was any etbool and you said yes; you didn't understand; me? Q. In what manner were *ey chJafitaed up? A. To the bars of Q. How high on .the bans of the doom were they chained? A. OanTenienrtly; not very high; the doors wouldto't aUow them to be chained MgH; the first bar above the lock. Q. Whait, if ianythlng, did you see with reference to Mr. Brock- way's inflicting blows upon the convicts? Mr. Qraig — Before you oome to that won't you identify the Q. What ceEs were theSe prisdnens in? A. Whait wais ^ait that timie oaledi the soliltiaiiies. 284 Q. Where were itihiey? A. In thiC southwieslt comnier of the pritsom. Q. In any papticular block op wdmig? A. Yes; I tiunk a block of sixteen cells thBPe Q. As it then existed? A. As* it tlhen existed'. Q. The sontih wing has been put on sitnice? A. I don't know whether *here has been any addition put on the south or not. By Mr. Litchfleld: Q. Were they fastened with otne hand or botb hands? A. Both hands. Q. How high were those hands fastened? A. Probably four feet from the floor. '' By Mr. Craig :. Q. How many times did you eTer siee amy one person confined in the one cell in that position? A. I couldn't slay positiTelyj my business called me around in this part of the prison every day. Q. Can you say, as a matter of knowledge, that you saw the same pei^on from day to day in one cell for any number of daysi? A. For sereral days; yes, sir. Q. For how many? A. I couldn^t say. Q. It wasn't a different person? A. Samel person. Q. In the same cell for sieveraJ days? A. Yes, sir. Q. Several days is indefinite? A. It might have been three or four. Q. Three is properly several? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it three, five or seven? A. I know it was three. Q. You don't know whether it was any more? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. TMiat did you mean when you said eight or ten days? A. Might have been, I 'said; I didn't say positively that it was. Q. What, if amirhing, did you notice with reference to the con- dition, the filthy condition the prisoners were in that you saw there ? A. It was rather a filthy condition. Q. Describe it; use your owri language? A. Well, he was shit all over just as a cow or a hor-se would be; he couldh't stoop. Q. Did that continue during the whole time that you saw a particular man there? A. I probably saw him three or four times that way. Q. What, if anything, have you seen with reference to Mr. Bnvckway striking a convict at any place in the prison? A. I saw him knock one convict down. Q. Where was that? A. It was out in the yard. Q. What was the convict doing? A. I don't know as he was doing anytMng, except looking around; I didn't hear whether . kS 285 there was amy controrersy between them or not; I mm him fell him and then fall onl to him. Q. What was the convict doing? A. He was falling into line; getting ready to go into 1he hall ; tuiming in at night. Q. Where did Mr. Brockway strike him? A. T presume it was in the head; I couldn't say; hit him somewhere, enough to knock him down. \ Q. What, did he strike him with? A. I am: under the impie.s- sion he took the cane from McKelvey lo hit him. Q. Where did he hit him? A. I presumei in the head. By Mr. Oraig: Q. We don't take any presumptions; di€ you see him liit him in the head? A. I couldn't say; I saw him strike the blow. Mr. Craig. — Strike out he hit him in his head. You can't say you presume he hit him in the head. Q. How near were you to him? A. As near as I can judge now I should say forty or fifity feet. (}. Anyone between you and him; could you see plainly what was occurring? A. Yes, sir. Q. What, if anything, had the man done to Mr. Brockway before he struck the blow ? A. I don't know. Q. Did you see anything? A. No, sir. il Did you hear any language that was used between the? A. No, sir. Q. Any remark that the man made that was abusive or insult- ing to Mr. Brockway? A. No, sir. Q. Were you near enough to have heard anything said if there was? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you looking before the blow was struck? A. "^'es, sir; [ was waiting for rhem to ,goi into the hall so I could go out. Q. There must ha^e been something on. the part of the man that caused the blow ? A. Bhnply looking around, I presumed, at that time'. I Mr. Oraig. — Strike out the presumption. Q. What did yon see, if anything, on the part of the man that caused Mr. Brockway to hit him in that manner ? A. Nothing, unless it was looking around. Q. Do you know that he stinick the man with a cane or stick or something of that kind; do you kno\\- where Mr. Brockway got liic stick or cane ? A. From McKelvey. Q. How do you know that ? A. There was no other place to get it. TIT Tz 1 Q. Is that the only reason why you say he got it from McKel- vey ? A. Yea, sir. 286 Q. Did you see Mm get it from McKelvey ? A. I saw Mm rfeturn it to McKelvey. Q. You saw Mm liand it to McKelvey after the blow was struck ? A. Yes. Q. But .you don't know where he got it ? A. No', sir. Q. Wliat kind of a stick was it ? A. Hickory cane. Q. An ordinary cane, that is, in length ? A. Ye®, sir. Q. How tMck ? A. Oh, it was a cane probably an inch, in diameter. Mr. Craig. — Strike out the last answer, unless the witness recollects. Q. What was the diameter ? A. About an. inch, might be more, notMng less than an inch. Q. T\Tiere is McKelvey ? A. That is a hard quesibion to answer. Q. Was he one of the keepers here at the time ? A. Yes, ^r. (}. Did you evei" see him strike a prisoner in the presience of Mr. Brockway ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was that ? A. In the hall. Q. ^Tio was the prisoner ? A. I don't know his name. Q. WTiat did he strike him with ? A. With his cane. Q. Where did he strike him ? A. Struck him in the head. Q. What was the effect ? A. NotMng; the prisoner had a pipe. Q. Was he using the pipe in a threatetiing way ? A, It was a common clay pipe. Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Brockway say or do ? A. Told htm to shoot Mm; the prisoner at that time had picked up a stool and he \yas parrying the blows from the cane. Q. Did he pick up the stool before or after McKelvey had struck him ? A. After he struck him. Q. ^^Tiat wa« said or what had occurred betweein' the prisoner and Mr. McKelvey before Mr. McKelvey struck htm ? A. He demanded the pipe. • Q. What did the pri'Souer say or do ? A. He refined to give it np Q. What next was said ? A. He struck him. Q. That wasn't anything said; what was the next thing said ? A. The prisoner didn't say anything. Q. The prisoner said when Mr. McKelvey required Mm to give up the pipe he refused to do it ? A. Yes. Q. What next did Mr. McKelvey say ? A. I don't know as he said anything; he struck him. Q. After the prisoner refused then McKelvey struck Mm with a cane ? A. The prisoner picked up the stool; Mr. Brockway hap- pened along there and he told McKelvey to shoot him. 287 Q. What next occurred ? A. When Mr. Brockway told him to shoot him, the prisoner dropped the stool and gave up the pipe. Q. Wais iiheTe amy visihle hruise upon thje persion x>f the prisoner that you saw ? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't knock him down ? A. No, sir. Q. And all that was accomplished, so far as that was con- cerned, is that the prisoner gave up the pipe ? A. Grave up the pipe. Q. Have you, at amy time, seen prisoners whipped in, the bath- room ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever seen them when they were coming out of the hath-roiom after they were whipped? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever see the paddle or ispanking insitrument? A. Yes, sir. , Q. The one that was usied at ithait time? A. Yes, sir. Q. "VyiQ you describe it? A. It was a piece of sole leather somewhere in the neighborhood of ten inches, and three feet long and three inches wide, fastened on a wooden handle; the whole thing would measure five feet or more. Q. How long was the wooden handle? A. The leather was somewhere betwe*eii twenty inches and two feet; I never meas- ured it; I should judge it was isomewhere in the neighborhood of five feet or more. Q. Do you say the handle was longer than the strap ? A. The handle was longer than the strap. , Q. Was the strap of one or two thicknesses of leather? A. One thickness. Q. Did you ever measure that paddle? A. Noi, sir. Q. Did you ever have it in your hand? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see it usedi? A. No, sir. Q. Did McKelvey while he was keeper describe to you the manner in which it was used? A. Yes, ear. Mr. Craig. — That wouldn't be competent, would it? Judge Gilbert. — No, sir. Mr. Craig. — Strike it out. Q. In the presence or heairing of Mr. Broickway? A. No, sir. Mr. Craig. — Allow me to suggest that you have c»me (o The limit that the committee indicated in the examination pi-ior to 1882. Q. I will ask this; what, if anything, do you know with refer- ence td dark doors made to fit over the cell doors? A. I made a great many of them or put them up; never made them, the carpenter made them and I put them up. Q. Describe them? A. Wooden door fitted as closely as they could to the cell doors and bolted on. 288 Q. Were they portable, could tliey be changed to any cell? A. Yes, sir. j ' Q. About hxyw many of those did you make or flit? A. I put on US many as( a dozen at one time. Q. ^"\Tiat were those doors called, if they had any pairticular name? A. Bark doors. Q. By Mhom were you requested to make those doone, or directed to make them? A. By the principal keeper. Q. For what purpose did the principal keeper say he wanted them? Mr. Stanchfield. — Objected to. Q. Xot Mr. Brockway? A. I put them on aiccording to Mr. Brockway's orders and the principal keepei''s', both. Q. Did Mr. Brockway state to yon for what purpose he wanted them put on? A. No, sir. Q. In what, part of the reformatory were those cells located for ^\'hich \ou prepared this kind of a door? A. In the south hall and the smithwest hall. Q. Have you been in the reformatory lately? A. No, sir. (i. How recemtly, or when was the last time that you went thi"ough the reformat f)ry ? A. Been fourteen yea-rs. Q. You fitted these doors to the; cells by fastening upon them certain iron fastenings? A. Staples around the baips. Q. \A'ouId tlio«e dOors fit any of the cells in that tier or part of the prison? A. Yes, 'sir. Q. Is theire any else that yom nottSiced OP obteteirived duiriinig the time of importiince, relating to the manner in which the ]n-isonerH were treated? A. Nothing particular. Q. .VnytUng hidicatin<>- s(M'(^rity? A. I have seen McKelvey knock a. good mltmy different omesi down. Q. That would be stricken out unless you know it was with the knowledge of Mr. Broc]v\A'ay and by his direction? A. I don't know. Mr. Onaig. — Strike the whole thing omt thien, Q. Do yotu know how long IMr. McKelvey waB keeper? A. Some- i,A heres' in the neighborhood of five yeara Q. Is McKelvey thei keeper that was killed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you ai witness upon that trial? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Adverse to the refoimnlatoiry? A I wasn't adverse to; any- thing; I simply stated what I toew. Q. (Mr. Craig.) You weire subpoenaed by whom? A. By the defense. Q. TVhat was the naniie of the man that Bnockwiay kniocked down? A. I couldn't teU. 289 Mr. Graig.-T- If it te admiititedi at all it iis mot adlmisBible om account of his not giving .the niame; tliat aflectia tlie weiig'li'b of it; if hie can't give the name very Uttle a/btemitiODa will he paid to^ it proibably ; we can't ®ay how much new. Judge Grilheirt. — TJnlesis the dose was repeia/ted ftam time to ' time. Mr. Oraig. — That would raltoe a genieral praotica / A. The counsel miade a remark afteic I was dafeicihjanged; I wasn't disdhangied from the refarmaitory; I quit. By Mr. Qralg: Q. Why did you quit? A. I had aE of the mefownatory I wanted Q. What do you mean hy that? A. It was' unpleasant ito 'work. Q. In .what respect? A. In every respect; I di'dn^t like the mannier of its being conducted in some insitaaices, and then I pre- ferred to work outside where my time wasi my own. " John Palmer, being duly sworn, testified: Examiined by Judge G-ilbert: Q. Where do you live? A. Bethlehem, Ohemung county. Q. Do you occupy any offlicilal poisitiom in that town? A. Gol- leotor of the town of Bethlehem. Q. Were you, art any (time, enigaged at the refoirmatoiry? A. Yes, me. Q. In what capacity? A. I entered here m a guiatrd. Q. When? A. About the twelfth of April, I think. Q. What year? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-three. Q. How long did you continue to act as guard, or how long did you remain in the employment of the institution? A. It was in the lartter days of June; I think the twenlty-sevemth; if I remember right. Q. Wl)ile here whalt, if anything, did you see or know with refer- ence to comvicts being taken to the baith-room to be punished? A. Well, I never siaw one put in. there. Q. Did you take any there yourself? A. Not to be punished. Q. Did you take parties toi the bath-room? A. I took soqaje monitors there once, to bathe that is all. By Mr. Craig: Q. Why did you take monitors to bathe; couldn't they go there themiselvea? A. It was CoL Bryain's orders. Q. Did you isee them bathe? A. Yesi, sir. Q. While there what, if anything, did you observe with reference to Wood upon the wall of the room? A. WeU, now, m regard to tLa* during the time they were bajtMng there was something ^saad about that being the bath-room, and the monitor — 37 290 Mr. StanoMeid. — We olbject to tkait. ]\Ir. Oraig. — That is a miene indiucememt. A. Tliey say like tMs. speaking of the baitlxiroom — ]\rr. Oraig. — You needn^t say whait wais isiaid; ymi wen> saying somethimg else aftenviairdisi m the way of indnoement. Q. Whait is desired is this; if y the west yard, or the prison depaai;- ments that would make them particularly members of the prison in that part of it? A. I don't know as it would make a differ- ence; it was military day; they were as liable to^ be in the west _yard aa in the east yard- Q. Would they be liable to com6' through this oentejir gate? A. Yes, sir; if they were taking their placei in ranlcs somewhere; if their company was in the west yard. Mr. Craig. — I don't think this witness knowis whether they came from th^ bath-room. Q. Did you ever see the back of a man who wais confined in his cell; was ^our attention called to his back? A. Yes, sir. Q. What prisoner was that? A. I didn't ask his name. Q. What cell was he in? A. Well, I don't remember tJie cell, but it would be somewhere near 12Si8, horth extension, west block. Q. Did he show you his back? A. He did. Q. What, if anything, did you observe with reference to it? A. I wiU tell you the circumstances if you will allow, ;ks it was — Ml'. Craig. — • Go on. The witness. — I done duty on the north extension, and the man was making some, noise in the cell, and I stepped up to the cell and asked him what the matter was. He said his back hurt him. I asked him what the matter was with his back. He says Ms back hurt him. Q. What did you do? A. He said he would show^me his back; I says, " all right." Q. He did show it to you? A. He did; for Some cause or another his back was purple, something of tha)t color, 293 By Mp. Craig : Q. State who*e on the back it was purple? A. Right across thei'e (indicating). ' Q. Aboive tihe hip bomes? A. Yes, mr. By Judge Gilbert: Q. The small of tlie baiok? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — That isn't the small of the back; lie points juet^ laiboT^e the hip bomes? A. Ajsi he pulled hilsi cloitliieis up it was just abbnt thente Dr. Smith.^ Below the small of the back? Q. How far around his person did that purple streak extend? A. I didn't take very long time to discover, because that was not customary, but it was' across h.is back. - Q. More than one strip? A. About so wide, six inches I should judge. Q. About how long? A. I didn't notice whether it extended around or not. , / Q. Aa^ fan as you noticed? A. ^.croiss the back; I wouldn't be deflnitei> Q. Can you give the consecutive number of that man? A. I could not; I didn't ask him; I think, he was a man that worked in the domestic building. Q. Do you know in what particular part ? A. I do not. / Q. Do you know in what grade he was ? A. He was then in the red suit. , , ' , U. Can you fix the time definitely; any more definitely than you have ? -A. Well, I don't know but I should say it was neai the tenth or fifteenth of June. By Mr. Craig: il Do you 'say ? A. No; for 1 am not positive. Q. Did the appearance of the ifljury indicate how recently the ; injury had been siistained; could you tell by the appearance. ? A. I don't know- as I could; I should not think it was any very great length of time. Q. Several days ? A. I should think not Q. lou think within a day ? A. I should. Q. Have you anything further to say as to its appearance that .would indicate, you have xilready said it was purple, anything else to state as to its appearance that would indicate the length of time ? A. No. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Was the skin broken upon his back ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How large a space ? A. Small spaces. 294 Q. Had Ms back been bleeding ? A. That I couldn't say. Q. Tf his sldn was broken there would be blood ? A. There _ may have been. Q. ^^'a^ there, in fact, blood ? A. I couldn't say. Q. Vou don't know whether it wass simply a blister or whether the skin was broken ? A. No. Q. Did you notice wheth,er there were pimples in other parts of his back than in the space or part where you noticed it was purple ? A. Did not. i Q. Did you look to see ? A. I did not. y. Do you know whether those pimples ot the broken points ii* the skin were pimples or something else ? A. They looked like an abrasion to me. Q. Did you notice ? A. No; 1 did not. Mr. Craig. — We suggest we have ample proof here that such thing's have occurred, and it don't, seem as if it was adding to the convincing nature of the proof to bring in cases so indefinite as those. He does not know how long the injury was sustatued b<-ft)re his observation. .Judge Gilbert. — Suppose, for instance, the convicts are to be ■ brought in here, one after another, up to three or four hundred, with the same character of bruises upon their back, and they shall all say they received them from the same source, and wit nesses on the part of the defense who come foi-w^ard and say they were not paddled. Mr. Craig. — I am simply saying, in regard to the indeflnibe •nature of the proof, he does not know how long it was. He does not know that it was the result of paddling. It seems to me there must be a sufficient number of oases that are definite. Judge Gilbert. — It has been suggested this evidence Sihould be received upon the theory that each inmate is the ward of the superintendent, and that if the\- are braised or shown to have been bruised in this particular manner, it should be for the super- intendent to show how that occurred, that it was not in the mar- ner which it is claimed. Mr. Craig. — He does not give his name, consecutive number or number of his cell. •Judge Gilbert. — He does say he was an inmate. Mr. Craig.^ That wouldn't give any strong presumption against the superintendent if he did not reply to «uch indefinite evidence. If you could identify the man the burden of proof is rolled upon the superintendent. Q. Is thei-e anything else that you observed with reference to the manner in which the prisonere were treated, that attracted your attention ? A. Not from the superintendent, I should not think. / 295 , Q. Or from tlie KeieperS? Mr.. StaiDicMeld. — Tlhjat is o^er oiw objecitioiii. Judge G-ilbierit. — I woiuW siuggest tihis, wbettLei" or noit tlh.e acts of he isiuperintieiideinrtjs, who, undeir tlhie isitartkutie muisttl receive itbiedr appo^mtncDent friom the prioGipal, Mr. Brockway, whterthier lie woiold nolt he aocouutable for tjieln coinidiilct. Mr. Onaiig. — He would nofb be aocoumtlable foir tihjeiir adiniseiio[n&. Judge Gilbert. — I was gioilig to folloiw tlhalsi uip by asking what he saw with refefpenjoe to their comduct towaipd the prfeooaemsi Mop. Onaig. — That is iniadmiissijble. Mr. Stamchfleld.-^ Not in the pineseiQce of Broick*wiay? Mr. Qraig. — Yes; it is not Mr. BTOckway aloiiie, lit m the whole admiuiisitriatioii! of 'thfei priuson we aire iaiTestalgiaitiQg. Q. Wha(t did! yoiu oibslerYe with referenice toi theirs coudTict towainds the prisoners? A. You, talce thie moniitora oin lieaitenarabs in the dmllliiig of thiosie prdisQnieirHi; they wieire soimietlimesi a Mttle sevene with them. ^ Mr. Gpajig. — Thatt is our business t!o' showWheitheiriitwasseTeirie; not your businjesisi; we wanlti tO' state the facts upon which we caji diriaw the ooncluBiom, whethem it was severe or not. ^ Q. What harre you seem with refenence to the siergeamti in the military, with .refenence to Ms abusing on striking a man, a con- vict? A. I saw a fellow in the west yard, near the west gate, I -thinlc it was, in a new squad, new drill'ersi that came in. Q. What you call the awkwajrd squiad? A/ Yes; I saw htm. strikte. Q. Was it the siergeant drilling the awkward squad? A. Yes; I Slaw him hit the feUow once seveirai timiesi i Of. Hoiw? A. Hit biTTi with his flist in the sidle of the neok; in the jugular. Q. With his cleufihied hand? A. Yes^ sir, Q. Knock hun dtown? A. No; he dlidtft knioct him down. Q. Stagger him? A. Yesi Q. T\%ich was that sergeant? A. I couldn't teU his) name; I could tell ^jm if I; should see him. Q. Could you tell the man th'ait was hit? A. No; I never knew his nam,e nor his number. ^ Q. Any other military officer pnesient at that timB? A. No'. Q. He was alomle with the squad? A. Yes; he was drilling, the squad in the west yard, niear the nbrrth gate not the weist gate. » Mr. Oaig. — Thisi has a, bearing upon the question whether a sergeant ought to be left with a squaJd. Q. Did you reptotrt that tt> thJe supetpLnteMdlent? A. That was one day when the colonel sent fom mie to come from the north gate and Erastus Wolcott — and I told him in regard toi the case. : 296 Q. Who was WoloortJt? A. He cam© to reHieve m© at the west nortlh. gate. Q. Im the same capacitiy you were? A. Yesi, sir.; Q. Had you any buisimess toi tell Mm? A. Yes, sir. Q. Does that discharge your duty to tell him? A. I don't know ajs it doesu Q. That; would be the same as teUiiig yourself? A, Yeisj, sir. Q. Wasn't it your busineisisi to tell youiri siaperloi" officer? A. I suppose it was. Q. You did not? A. I did not. Q. You failed to keep the name of the sp*geant or the consecu- tive number of the man wfho was hit? A. Yes; I could hajve called h i m and taken Ms name and given him a repoirt or reported him to C!ol. Bryan or some superior officer. Mr. Craig. — We will take it for what it is worth; it is not worth as much as though he had identified the men. Q. How did you oomie to leave the institution? A. It was work I did not like. Q. You were not discharged? A. No, sir; I sent in my resigna- tion and the 'superintenderat aiocepited it. Q. You never was in tine refbrmiaJtory yourself as a convict? A. No, sir. Edward Decker, being duly sworu, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Judge Gilbert. — I am requested to say that thjs' gentleman, before he was called, refused to state wlia/t he knows with refer- ence to this matter, but stated! he was willing to state whateyer he did know uiK>n the stand, so 1 may not be able to put him questions direct. Q. Where do you reside?- A. Alpine, Schuyler county. Q. What is your age? A. Twenty-two. Q. Were you ever connected in any way with the reformaton- at Elmira? A. Not only* as guard but keeper in the hardware. Q. Wllen did you commence? A. I think it wa® in November, 1892. Q. You continued to what time? A. It was the last of .June, I tMnk, or first of July. Q. Of what year? A. This year, 1893. Q. Did you resign or were you discharged? A. I resigned. Q. Where were you stationed; in «hat part of the building were you required to perform your duties while you were here? A. I was in hardware and on the south, block; I done duty at night and I was on the waU; came off the wall. Q. You were on the wall in the daytime? A. I was when I first came, I think. 297 \ Q. Afterwards you ceased to do duty ha the daytime and was inside at niglit? A. Yes. Q. Did you know an inmate named Joiluison wiien you were liere? A. I titink I do. Q. Do you know anything about his being paddled? A.' A fellow gaye his name ajs Johnson; I oouldu't say that was his name. " Q. The name he went undeir here was Johnson? A. Yes, sir. Q. State 'What you know with reference to Ms being paddled? A. I As far as I know; I was doing duty in the south extension and he told me — Mr. Craig. — State what you know ; what you saw and heard of the paddling; not what he said to you. i A. I didn't see him -paddled. Q. What did you see? A. I didn't see that he was paddled. Q. Did you see him after he was paddled? A. Yes. Q. Did you observe any effects of the paddling? A. IVom his tell. Q. How long after was it that you heard him tell? A. I should think a week, perhaps. Mr. Oraig. — You can't say what he told. v Q. I)escribe his condition when you saw him? A. When I saw him one of his eyes, there was something the matter of it, find I asked him what was the matter, and he said — Q. (Interrupting.) You can't tell wha/t he saidi? A. I can't say what the trouble was, but Ms eye looked very much as though it had b6en struck with sometMng; I was doing duty there, until I came away ou thesouti. block and extension, and after a while he got so he couldn't see out of his eye; that is,' he told me he did ; I was talking with him about it, and he said he had spoke to the superintendent ^.bout having a doctor look at it; and he said Mr. Brockway told him he would as soon as it was convenient; that, I think, is all. ^ ' Q. Have you described the appearance of the eye fully when you first saw it? A. I dont know as I did exactly; the eye, of course, looked red and kind of blood-shot when I first saw it; afterwards it began to look white like. , Q. What, if anything, did you notice with reference to Ms face or his being black and blue about hisi eye? A. I couWn't say whether there was or not; I don't remember. Q. When you first saw him? ,A. No. Q. When was this man you saw Johnson in tMsi condition; give the datd as ne'ar as you can? A. Now, I couldn't tell just when it wasi; it was some time in the winter, this last winter. \ 38 298 Q. Pan you give the number of Johnson ? A. No; I couldn't il Oould you tell what cell he was ? A. He did lock in 85. Q. At this time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know in Avhat department he worked ? A. I think lit worked in. the hall, then. Q. Do you know id what capacity? A. No; I don't know exactly; he worked there, I thinli, under Mr. Lazenby, tlien^ (i. Do you know what his name was ? 2^. No ; I don't. Q. Was he a colored man ? A. No, sir; a \\hite man. Q. Do you know what nationality he was ? A. No; I eouldj^'t saj as to that. (.}. While engaged here in the reformatory, _what, if anything, do you know in referencie \o the imnates being taken to the bath- room, and with reference to their con,dition when they came out of the bath-room ? A. I ha^e seen them in quite hard shaipe after they came out. Q. How long after ? A. The same day. (^ ^Tiere werp you usually stationed, and doing your guard' duty, with n-ference to the bath-room ? A. I used to do duty (t)i the soutk block, but that was at nigbt when I done duty. Q. "WTiat time were the inmates usually taken to the bath-room ? A. I should judge probably between 1 and 2 o'clock. By Mi. Craig: Q. Do you kno^- where the bath-TOom is ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many bath-tubs nre there ? A. There was two there. (i- "VN'hat year was that ? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety- three. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you see men go into the bath-room ? A. I have seen them go in there. Q. Have you seen, the same men come out ? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^^Tiat was the condition of those men that you saw go in and come out. after they came but ? A. Well, of course, I don't know exactly wiien they camie out; I wasn't right there by them Tihen they came out. ^^ Q. After they caijie out you saw (-ci'tain things; what did you ^ see in reference to it ? A. After they cauic out, there used to be a man locked on south biocli; one night T went to hLs room and after he came out of the bath-room I notici^d both his eyes were swelled shut and his face, one -side, looked as though it was 'Cut some way. Q. What was his name ? A. I couldn't say what his name was. Q. What AAas the numbei' of his cell ? A. Well, I wouldn't say that now. 299 Q. Which, tier of cells was he in ? A. On the second tier on ^the least side. Q. AboTit where on that tier ? A. Nearly the last cell. (l Can you describe more fully than you have the condition of his eyes ? A. No. Q. What, if anything, did you notice about them being black an;d blue around his eyes ? A. Ves; they were black; his eyes were swollen quite bad. Q. You said there ,was a bruise or cut upon the side of his face; how long was that bruise or cut ? A. Well, I couldn't say exactly as to that. ^ Q. As you recollect it ? A. Why, I should judge, as near as I could tell, perhaps it was two inches or such a matter; perhaps more ; it had court plaster on the side of his face, if I remember right. Q. Whereabouts on the side of his face waS' that cut ? A^ I think it was on the left side of' his face. Q. Ht)w near the temple ? A. As near as — I should judge nearly across there, some place. Q. Near the corner of his eye ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you notice what the color of the skin was aboult that cut ? A. No; 1 didn't. / Q. Did you notice any other peinsoiiisi; btruisesi upon amy other person that (sa.m.e from tbe bath-room? Mr. Stanchfldd. Did he see ithait ome come fnomi iMe bath-room? Mr.'Orai'g. — He mM. after; he didn't say how lotug it waa Tlie witness.— I presume two hours anyhow. By Mr. Oraig: Q. Stlrike out presiumje; do you know how lonig it was after? A. No; I don't know posaitively. , Q. Do you know apparoximaJtely how long it wasy tihait isi, about how long of your own knowledge? A. To my own laiowledge I shofuid! judge, as near as you can get alt it two' hofars. Q. Did yiou see the man go in^ the bath-room? A. I saw him go theaie; yes, isitr; I saw him come back frmp. there. Q. How far away from the baith-room wk)s it you saw ihdm? A. I was down toward the nonth end of itihe siouithj block, near the guard-room floor when he came ou)t from tihere. Q. What time in the day was it? A. It was after dinner; I had been ouit in the hardware and came back in. Q. We don't want to show you don't know anything, but we want to ishow how much you do know. By Mr. Lltc'hJfteld: Q. Was he in thart condition when he went into the bath-room.? A. No^ BJr. 300 By Judge Gilbert: y. Ane thfiire any oitiher pairttiiies ttofc you saw after tliey came out of the bathj-room upon wbom yoiu saw bruises oir ouitsi? A. I havte sajw several of tbem. Q. Wliat tbie cooaomitttee desliire is that you ishjould i5rajQMy and promptly sfeute all you know about it? A. I hjaveni't siaw any otiher men tlhatt I could say went in and pame out, that wasi bruised that way; nor that I can say went ia tliene and was injured while they were in tihere. Q. Did you see other persoinis about there with bruises^ upon their faces? A. Why ; I have, siaw tihem with brujseei on tihedn face®. Q. You don't know whetiher they had > been in the bath-room? A. I couldn't say positively they had been in tihe baitlh-room. Q. Did you see persons witih bruises on their faces that said in the presence of the keepeiia otr officers or the presence of Mr. Brockway that they had received those bruises in the baith-room? A. Yes; I have. Q. Name those? A I couldn't teU their namea Q. In whose presence did you hear them make that declarajtion ; what keeper or what grade of officers? A. Well, now I wouldn't slay positi'vie as to that; I think it was — I know it was on tlhe south extension. • ' Q. In the presence of wihat officer, to what grade of offlcersi? A. Why, the citizen officers; they done that; I forget the officer. By Mr. Ora4g: Q. You can't recaJl the officer and can't recaill the inmate; that is too indefinite because the statements depend, on the presence of the officer even if that would qulaildfy it. Q. Were statements madei by the inmates to you as an officer? A. Yes, sir. Q. And compJamte made to you as an officer? A. They didn't make complaints; they told me of their bein^ there and being bruasied that way. Q. While you were acting as officer? A, Yesi, sir. Q. What bruises did these persons have upon their faces; describe them? A. Generally you would see a black eye or some- thing of that sort; theiir eyes swollen, neairly shut oin sometMnig like that. Q. Any cuts upon their faces or heads? A. Noi; I wouldn't say that tihere was. Q, During the time that you were there how many of the inmates, with bruises of that chairtacter upon them, made com- plaint to you as an officer, or stated to' you that they had received their bruises in the bath-room? 1 301 Mr. Standhfleld. — I don^t see why (that isn't hearsay. Mr. Craig. — I think it is to eyerybody except this officer him- self. I don't see how it is evidence to any other officer. Judge Gilbei't. — If it wa® true that petnsons' appearing here in the reformatory with that character of bruises upon them, and' they made complaint to any* officer, then wouldn't it he the duty ol tiiait officer or thoise officers to report that fact to the superior and call their attention to it. Mr. Craig. — Yes; it would be evidence as to this oharactcr, but not to implicate any other officer. * / Judge Gf-Ubert. — I was , going to follow it up and see whM he done about it The witness. — -They never complained to me; I merely asked them or something of that sort. * Q. You asked them how they came to be bruised and they told you? , A. Yes^ sir. Q. In reply to that where did they say they received their bruises? A. Bath-room. Q. FrOTu whom? » -Mr. Stanohfleid. — Same objection. Ml'. Craig. — • He says he is going to- follow it up. . The witneiss. — They didn't say from who. v [ Q. Did you report that fact'to any of yoair superiore? A. No, sir. Q. Did you take any official aotion in reference to it? A. 'No; I don^t think I did. Mr. Craig. — The evidence stands in relation toi the question 'of discharge of duty toy this witness as an 'officer. We will take a recess to 2 o'clock. Recess. !,' AFTERNOON SESSION. On reconvening the counsel for Mr. Brockway and the Ijoard of managers inqnired if the board of managers should put in their evidence to the different cases at once; and whether if, in the judgment of the committee, the charges were not sustained Mr. Brockway icould be reinstated. The committee replied that that was a matter for the Governor and not for the committee. Counsel then stated they would defer the defense until the affirma- tive case was closed. ^ ,^ Rev. Father J. J. Bloomer, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert : Q. Where do you' reside? A. In the city of Elmira Q. What is your occoipation? A. Clergyman. ( 302 Q. What denoaninaitdoDi or church, do you belong to? A. Roman Catholic cliurch.. Q. How long liave you resided at Elmira? A. I think twenty- three years past. ■ (2. During that time have \ou bci-n the pastor of a diurch here in Elmira? A. INventy-two years pastor of a church. Q. Duriug that time, or any portion of that time, have your pastoral duties required you to visit the Elmira i-efonnatory? A. I was invited to come tiere to administer tO' the Catholic inmates, which I did for a period of twelve or fourteen yeai-s, or in that neighborhood, down to two yeai^s ago last spiing. Q. About how often each year did you visit the institution? A. I generally paid four visits a month, Q. About fifty visits a year? A. A little less than that; some- times I might miss a ^isit occasiomally. ^ Q. While thus visiting the reformatory did you go thiough it iQ its various departments, or .some of its departments ? A. Not as a clorg^Tnan; as a \isitor I went through it once or twice, I believe. * ; , Q. As a clergyman what did you generally do; what portion of the reformatory did you visit? A. I held services in the chapel and gave catechetical instruction there; held service Sunday morning and gav catechetical ini^truction on two Monday even- ings during the month in the same place, on two evenings in the month, and on Saturday when I came to hear con.fessions I occu- pied different places, but principally one place. Q. Do I understand during your pastorial relations at the reformatory, that you had stated services at the reformatory until about two years ago ? A. Until about two years ago last spring. Q. Do you knoAv what other services «-ere held here by ther denominations or branches of the church ? A. I don't know what other religious services were held; I always understood there wea-e religious servicer held here by other clergymen, but what? they were I never saw for myself. Q. For the period you have referred to the Catholic church, though, you held services here at stated times down to about two years ago ? A. Yes, sir. Q. While engaged in your pastoral duties here were you brought more or less in contact with the inmates of the reformatory ? A. ^Vell, of course with the Catholic inmates, yes. Q. Those relations were such, at least to a great extent they were of a confidential character ? A. ^Mostly all of a conflden.- tial character; in one sense you might say all were confidential. Q. Did you, during that time, have conversations with thexkeej)- ers or the superintendent with reference to the inmates ? A. I have held conversations with the superintendent regarding what 303 ' I consider an improper thing, compelling Oatholic inmates to attend Protestant service on Sunday; I have time and again (^i pressed my sentiments against that practice. Q. Von insistied to the supea-intendent that the inmates should not be couipeUed, to attend religious services held by clergymen that belonged to a different denomination, from what they '^belonged' to, or wtuch thc.v believed in ? A. That was it. (,}. Do you knowoif any severe punishmenite or anything of thaA •kind tlia t were intlicte'd upon any of the Catholic inmate's because of their protesting or refusing' to attend religious services conducted by the clergymen belonging to other denominations ? .Mr. Stanchfield. — That question is objected to, as leading to hearsay. Mr. Craig. — So far as it is hearsay, if the answer is hearsay , we will strike it out. The v.ilness. — I don't know, of my own knowledge, any Catholic inmate being punished because of his faith, o;f my own knowledge. Q. Did you, at different times, have conversations with inmates upon their death-bed ? A. I have been called to inmates on their death-bed and administered to them the rites of the faith of the church. Q. From those inmates \\ ere any statements made to you with red'erence to the manner in which they had been treated ? Mr. Chairman, you will observe this question; it is very questionable' whether, under the code I would have the right tO' put the ques- tion ? A. This is a matter I am somewhat delicate about; I regard anything thart; I have got at the death-bed as sacramental. ]\Ir. Craig. — You decline on that ground, and you are excused on that ground. "\ATiile we will rule out any hearsay evidence as evidence, it will \be admitted if asked in order to give us the ' siQUrce of infoirinatdocd of what would be the best evidence, so if the Attoimey-G-eneral wishes to repeat the question, the answer to whifch was ruled out as hearsay, the witness having said that he Ivnew nothing of 'his own knowledge, if the Attomey-CTeneral wishes to find out from him any statements as soiurces of the best evidence which. we may call hereafter, we will allow tha'ti Q. I will ask if you ever visited prisoners while they wei*e confined in whart; is known or called the solitary cells? A. I couldn't say that I knew them to be solitary cells; I remember , visiting one man who wanted to see me, I believe, and he was making brushes, if I recollect rightly ; he was confined in a little cell,.- with his hands out through a hole or soiiie'thing working, or some arrangement about it; I don't know what they were; there were four or five of them there; there were several other men in there at the time at the same occupation; this naan wanted to 304 see me, and I called to see him and found Mm a* that labor and in that condition. ^ Q. How long ago was tliat? A. That must be Uii, ele^'en or I welve years ago. Q. It wasn't in a three-coniered cell? A. No; it wasn't in a cell proper; it was in, I think, an arrangement built out against the wall. , , Q. Was he chained? A. I couldn't say; he was in a small apart- ■ luent; I think his hands were out, away from him, in such a way. that he couldn't use them for his own purposes at all; I think so; I think theire was something between his hands and his body and he was working in that condition. (.}. His hands were fastened? A. No; they wex'e outside, anil I think they were so arranged he couldn't draw 'them inside. ^ Q. Do I understand you to Sfay as a general thing you didn't > converse ■with the prisoners while in their oellsi? A. I ne^'er con- \'orsed with them in their cells at all, except it may be an odd one occasionally. Q. Nor didn't visit tihem while cdnflned in their cells? A. I think not. Q. You don't know much about the manner in which they were comflned? A. No; I do not. Q. Had you, at any time, your attention called to the condition of any particular inmate, a condition produced or caused by what a]jpeared to be punislhment? A. Yes, sir; I had. Q. Can Tou give the time? A. I can't recollect the date nor the period of time; it -nas during Mr. Beach's time here as dcputj-; I had an inmate call me; I was up here for the occasion of hearing confessions, and he was one of the men that) came to - see me, and when he came in — I neVer looked at these men; hardly ever saw any of them; always had my back to the door; sat with my back to the door "when they came in; they knelt down at the table alongside of me and I never looked them in the face or saw them ; I coiildn't tell one after he left that I had seen him, that is, generally, unless they called my attention particularly fop some reason or another so I would know them; the man came in and I supposed he was coming to confession, and he says: "Father, I don't want to go toi confession to^day; I want to show you my condition." Mr. Babcock. — I desire to interpose an objection to this testi- mony as rQcompetemt, on the ground it is hearsay. Mr. Oalg. — That I suppose is a mere inducement. That wouldn't amount to anything unless it is followed by ^\hat he saw. Judge Grilbent. — 1 am instamcted tha* tlhis petrson' can be identified by Mr. Beach, and that we will be able, perhaps, to follow tihe name, number, etc., of the inmate. 305 Mr. Oiaig. — AUtliOugh: ft m!a|y be hiaaiPsiay we will take it for that puipose aardi it will lead to cDimipeteoQiti''emidteinice as evidaQce wihat thie f atbeiri saw. The witflDiess. — He say®, " I want to show you my conditioiij" I don't know the name; I looked around and the boy pull-ed his shirt up from, iiis pamtaloomsi, and exposed "Mb whole back to me ajnd I was astomislhed to see the condition pnasented; there was evarylthiiig there bnt a, natural color; it was all blaok, puirple, blue and disicoloiped from hisi hipisi up to hifei shtiuldeirsi; I asked him what wais the malttteir with hdnn; he eiaid he had been paddled a number of timesi; I aisked himi why, and he said he couldn't do hi® task; that he wasn't able to' do that, and that was what he was paddled for and he says " I am going to' be paddled, I understand, or f eair to be paddled toi-monrow again, and if I doi it will kill me, and I want you to know from my condiitLon what may be the cause of my dearth;" so, I di^dn't want to look at the boy and didn't think of it; it was crowded on 'to me; I couldn't help tlo isiee him; when I saw it I wanted to know the reason of it; I told the btoy to say .nothing about maittera; I didn't know whethem I could help him or not; to say nothing about matters to anybody aoid I would see if an;N'thing oould be done for 'hdmi; that eTeping I went down street and I met Mr. Beach and Misl, wife at thIe park; at the coiTier of Main and Chnwh stireatj, listening to a band concert,* and I spoke to Mr. Beach abotut the mattter^Msi wife wasi sitting in the buggy — and called his attention to the matter as I have stated it here; I told him thalt I ithoiughjt as far as punishment was ■ remedial thte boy had got all he could 'Stand of it; and that as far as wanting to undei^stand that be must bfe obedient and do- his work that he wais perfectly willing but he seetmed to be unajble; and Mr. Beach promised me thiat he would look aifteir the boy and see what he could do for himi; he piromised me, howeyer, ithati he wionld not be paddled again; sonje time afterwardis' I met Mr. Beach, land I aisked hiim about the boy and he told me that he placed him at some other work; that the boy got aitang first-clasis, and nevea" had a breiak afterwards; never^ met with a back-siet afterwards; that is suhstiantially, I don't mean to say woird for word, that Mr. T.each said to me, but that is, in suibstanice, the matter; I undetr^tood from Mr. Beach the boy got along all right and got out of the institution without a, brealt afterwards. Q. Did yoiu, at one time, visit an inmate, a younig lad, while con- fined in his cell -and siek? . Mr. Qraig. — Is this lai^t case fully identifled. Judge (rilbeirt.. — As far as he can identify it- The witness, — T don't know the boy's name or his number. 39 306 Q. (Mr. Oreiig.) Hhie only way you idemttify him is by thi® coraver- sation wiitlh. Mr. Beach.? A. TtoartI is all. Q. la there anyifMng further that yoiu cam state -with, veteveace to that case thiat is material on importaMfc? A. I dioia't know aiay- thiiig fm-their aibout thiat case; I don't kniow if the boy came to see me afterwards or not; the boys were in the habit of coming to see me and having conversation with mei on the flooip up here and teiliag me thedr trialisi and difBiCulties, and aisk my advice about matters; sometimes thjeir home affairsi and iso on anid ask me to writte to friends for them and sol on, and aisiked me to be the medium through wMth the news of their condition; could be brought to paiTti'es, to get them out of here, and so on; I never interfered oir amytihing Uk© that; I never thought I had a right to; I advised them, however, to lay and live up to the rulefi of the instiitution and get out tJhe besiti they could; sometimes I would have a good deal of trouble in trying to oalmi their feelings; to hold them in check. By Mp. Oraig: ' Q. This case that you have given, have you given definitely the time V A. I can't recall just the time when it was; during Mr. Beach's term. Q. What season of the year ? A. It was in. the summer time. Q. Can you tell what time in the summer, whether beginning, ending or middle ? A. I really could not. Q. The year ? A. No. Q. About the year ? A. No ; I am at sea with, these dates. C}. You can tell whether it was near the end of your duties here ? A. Oh, no; it must be six or seven years; it may be more than that. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you at one time visit a young lad who was confined in his cell and sick ? A. I visited several young fellows who were in the hospital ; there were some rooms, I believe, in one part of the building used for hospital purpo^ses, for invalids, before the building now known as a hospital was erected; I visited patients there. Q. What do you know with reference to a young lad that was very sick, and who claimed to have been punished in the bath- room ? A. Well, I have heard many of them say the|y were punished. Q. Let that be stricken out; I refer to the case of a young man that was sick in the hospital and in a very short time was released, sent home, and very soon died ? A. There was a young fellow that I called to see and found htm sick, sick in body, and, I 307 ^hink, somewhat strange in Ms m^iid, that was afterwards released, went home and died. Q. Do you know where his parents lived or where he lived or ^v]]e^e he was returned to ? A. It was New York city. Q. Do you remember his name ? A. Yes, sii'. Q. What was it — do you recollect his number? A. No; I never took pains to know these boys by name or number, except where their parents or relatives wrote me, asMng me to take a special interest in them, and look after them, and have a talk with them, and in such cas^ I always tried to call on those boys and have a conversation with them. Q. Would you be unwilling to give me, confidentiajly, the name, that I may refer to the, books for the number ? A. I wouldn't refuse at all, only I wouldn't want it ultimately to come out. Q. I will suggest you give the name to the chairman of the committee confidentially ? A. It don't make any difference to, me; T will give it confidentially; I can't give you the nimiber; I can give you his name. Q. Can you give the first name ? A. I don't know it. Q. Have you any objection to my handing this to the chairman of the committed ? A. No. Q. You may state what you saw or observed in reference to tills lad ? ' A. I was informed that he was very sick, called to see him, and he looked at me for a moment in a dazed way, and I noticed there was something wrong with him; I closed the door and when he recognized me I spoke to him; he says, "Sh," a wild stare in his eye; he seemed to think Mr. Brockway was listening at the door and ready to pick up any word he might utter for the , puii^se of punishing him,, and I was lead to infer — Q. (IntieirpupltMig.) What did he siay with reference toi Mr. Broick- way, if anything ? A. He said he was afraid Mr. Brockway would hear htm and punish him. Mr. Stanchfield. — • Does the chairman hold that is competent ? Mr. Craig. — That isn't competent, if objected to. Mr. Stanchfield. — I ask to strilie it out. Judge G-ilbert. — ^I would merely suggest, perhaps it would be better to determine whether it should be stridken out or not after the record relating to that prisoner is introduced and see wheihei' there is anything in the record which confirms the state- ment; if not, it shoidd all be sitricken out. ^ Q. Where is the boy now ? A. Dead; he died about four weeks after being released. Q. About how long was it before he was released thart; you saw him ? A. I don't know ; I think it might have been a week or two. Q. Did you, at any time, have any conversation with Mr. Brock- way himself in reference to the manner in which the inmates or 308 any particular inmate, was being disciplined ? A. I don't think I ever held anv conrereation of that nature with Brockway. Q. Did you hold any conversation* of that kind with any of the keepers ? A. I possibly may have, but I don't recollect it, except in one case, that I have already stated, with Mr. Beach. Q. What can you say from what you saw and what you know with reference to the manner in which the inmates were disciplined ? ]Mr. kStanchfleid. — That is over our objection. :Mr. Orai^. — I don't know that it necessarily does. You are ni>t to give hearsay evidence unless to go on the record for us to call those persons ? A. Of my own personal knowledge I xan't say anything at all in regard to wliat I have seen in the line of punishm(?nt; I never saw any boy punished; never saw any of the discipline of the institution put in practice; never had occasion to be where it was practiced, and never was called upon, to wit- ness anything of 1iie kind, consequently I Imow nothing at all about the administering of puniishment in. this institution personally. By Mr. Craig: Q. You may give us, not as eividence, but the information which will lead us to the source of proper eVidence, what may have been said To you by persons, that they may be called ? A. That is also impossible, because I don't know the numbers n.or the names of the men who spoke to me; I couldn't tell them if I met thein. By Judge Gilbert: ' ^ ' Q. Did yon, upon any of these occasions when you visited the reformatory, see inmaibes whxjse faces had been bruised or cut ? jS. 1 don't recollect that I ever did. Q. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Brockway in rela- tion 1.0 his methods of punishment ? A. I don't remember tjiat I ever have. Q. Or any conversations with him with reference to the reli- gious training of the inmates ? A. Yes; I have held several con- versations with him in matters of that kind. Mr. Stanchfield.— Does the committee hold that is a legitimate subject of inquiiry ? Judge GllbOTt.— I don't care to go into it. M. Did you have any conversations with the managers or any one of them 'in reference to the manner in which the inmates were being disciplined ? A. No; I don't think I ever approached any of the managers upon anything pertaining to the discipline of this institution or government of it; perhaps lately I might have s](oken to one of the managers about tUe institution and 309 gave Mm my ideas, that is all; how I consider the place and its jfovernment. Q. IHd you ever, at any time, appear before the board of man- agenient for the purpose of making any complaint or making any suggestion in reference to the manner in. which the reformatory -was being governed ? A. Not except in the line of their religion; the line of religious administration here; 1 then wrote to the president of the board my ideas about the matter, and that is about all the difference of opinion between us; outside of that I never had any talk in regard to the government or discipline of the institution. , Malcolm A. Breese, being duly ewom, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. At Hotrseheads. Q. What is your occupa.tiorn ? A. Sal^man for McLaren, Brown &0). ; Q. What is your age? A. Thirty-four. ^, ' Q. Were you ever in amy way connected with the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, hsir. Q. Frota what tune to what time? A. I think from November, 1884, until August, 1886, if my memory series me. Q. In what capaoity? A. Well, several capaoitifets; guard on the wall; I was in charge of the printing office, and I was hos^ pitaJ steward, and I acted in several other positions at different times. Q. For how long a time were you hoispital steward? A. I can't remember; I don't know when I was appointed to charge of the hos.pital; the records would probajbly show it here. Q. About how long? A. I should imagine a year or fourteen month^i poissibly longer. Q. While acting as hospital steward what, generally, were your duties? A. As assistant to the prison physician in making his rounds, filling the prescriptionis and general charge of the inmates who were in the hospital or confined toi iiheir rooms sick. Q. In what other capafcities did you act during the time you were <^onneoted with the reformatory? A. Been on the stands in different shops, hall keeper when Mr. Beach was away, and Mr. Winne was acting as principal keeper, and several positions of that descilptiop. Q. So that you were brought very generally into contact with or in the presienice of the inmates? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whale acting as assistant to the surgeon or attending phy- ^ sioian what, was your rule and whajt, in fact, did you do with reference to visiting, looking after and attending to inmates that 310 were oonflned iB the cells known as isolitajries or any otlier ©lose oonflnement? A. I had nothing to do with; the prisoners in the solitary, unless they were sick, or other prisoners, unless my attention was specially called to them, as being indisposed', or at the order or instruction of the surgeon. ,Q. Was there any rule to the effect, and was it, in fact, CEwiried out that the attendant physician or Msi assistant should rim, and did visit the inmates of the solitary eveay day? A. Only in oases of reported sickness, I believe; if a man was T'eported to be indis- posed in any way the surgeon, of course, saw him every day. Q. There was no rule or no custotm under which or by which the physicians aotuaUy visited parties thus confined ? A. !Not that I know of. Q. "What was the rule or regulation with reference to direct- ing what the diet should be for prisoners thus confined; was there any, so far as you know? A. Men who were sick? Q. No; who were confined? A. I knew nothing of that. Q. Did you at times accompany the regular! physician on his rounds? A. Always. Q. If you' always accompanied him, don't you know whether he did or did not daily visit those who wei'e cloistely confined in either the solitary cells or other cells? A. If a man was marked in as desiring to see the physician. Q. I dotft mean whether he wasi marked in or whether the phyeician's( attention was particulairly called to the fact whether a man was sick; I want to know if he generally, as part of his daily duty, visited those who were closely confined? A. Not in my company; not that I knovs^ of; I don't think that he did, although after the general rounds I was at liberty and went back to the hospital; he might have dotne so after that. Q. Do you know of th^ere being daily a statement pnesented to you or to the physician showing whO' wasi, how many and where persons were confined in closie conflniemient? A. I think every man who was in his ceil; the list was giren to the surgeon every morning. Q. While you were in the hospital oa? comjnectted with it did you ever upon any occasion see inmates brouight to the hospital that had been in li.e bath-room, as it is called? A. Do you; mean the is the reduction of a man and the deprivaifcion of the comforts of immediate time after the punishment ? Q. The immediate time or very soon: after? A. I never did; no. Q. Did you ever see any of the imnaJtes punished? A. Yes sir. Q. Where? A. Both in the old No. 4; what vrais termed the selitaiy, and the bath-room. , Q. Were prisoners punished in more thlaini one pHiajce? I think when I was first here the punishmieMfas all took place in the 311 soiiltiary om No. 4, and iihien tbieyweireinaMiig' some dhiaiiges' there, and I tlhiDik tiieiie were a few punMied) at tlhe end of the north, oorsridoir, and after thaib I think tihe batJi-rooim) was used. Q. Whien they wprie punished in thj€» place ftrat neferred to in what manmeir were they punished? A. They were spiankied. Q. In what poisitioia were they placed in' when spanked? A. In a sitaindding positioini. Q. What, if lanything, was theaie toi make thetm remiadn in posi- tion? A. In caise it was 'a big, husky miam that, they possibly antioipatted isome trofuble fnoia, he would sttand with hisi hands at eiliher side of the iron poistis that went up at the coruiersi and handcuffsi were placed airorand fthe posts. Q. He wasi chained toi the posfb? A. Yesi, sliir. , Q. Were any of them, alt any time, ch,ained in such a manner that they were lifted wholly or pantiaUy from the floor? A. No; there was no chance. Q. I am referring to the place where you say they were first puniished? A. I never saw anything of that kind. Q. WhaJt kind of paddle was: uiged^ at that time? A. Leather paddle, with a wo^den^ handle. Q. How many thicikniesHeB of leaithier? A. If my memory serves miei, I think there was two thickneseas, lalthaugh I can't remember snrtei; I don't remember diatSinctly; I ^have had it in my hand, too. Q. HoW' were the thickhesSes fastened together, 'by rivets? A. I think they were Btitched. Q. Of what materiai was the leaihietrt, sole leather or other leather? A. I tliink it wasi a good, subistanltial piece of other leather; I don't think it was sole leather; I think it was black. Q, About how thick? A. I should thitok threeHsixtieenth-inchi, or somewheres thereatoontsL Q. How long? A. I ehoiuM think the strap was poBsibly twenty inches and the handle perhaps six; or seven mone. Q. Is that the only inistrtument-that you isiaw or know- was used in commeotion vdiHa. the spankings' whUie yoiui were 'theipe? A. Yes, sir; that is the only one I ever saw used. Q. Yora say you saw inmaJtesi when they weriei paddled? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many blows wiere the most that yon ever knew toi be struck? A. I don't think I ever saw to^ exceed seven or eight; I wofuldn't be siuire but I don't think it would exceed that Q. What did you oibisenve with reference toi the inmate's body after the blows had been inflicted; what sicians, if any, or what bruises, if any, did you observe? A. It brought the blood to. the surface " of the sldin sio it showed very prominently in some instancesi. , 312 Q. Wliat do you meatn by ttat? A. I mieajn.' the spa* would make a blood blister almost; it would irritate the skiu m the blood would show veiy prominently the first two or "dhree strokes and I>ossibly aJ&ter that would bneak through the skin. Q. You have .seen the blood flow from the backs ? A. I couldn't say blood; I Lave seen a drop or two of blood, or a few drops of blood, on the back. Q. You have seen where the blow struck the body, that blood ^^'ould come to the surface and stand in drops ? A. Yes. Q. What, witJi reference to the appearance of the body, a little ^vhile after blows had been strack, in reference to being black and blue ? A. It would be black and blue in one on two instances ^vhi.'re it was black and blue afterwards. Q. "\Miere were these blows struck ? A. Across' the buttocks. (.}. How high up ? A. As high as that, possibly (Dr. Smith says not above the buttocks). Q. I'.efoii'e using the paddle, was it soaked in water ? A. Yes, sir. ! Q. Was it just dipped in water, or soaked until it wasi soft ? A. I think it is custtomairy to sio'ali it until it, wasl soft; I itMnik it wiis (jsually put down in a bucket of water and left there for a fcw -uoments. . Q. When you say seven or eight blows were given, were they L,L^ en Avith such force that every blow would raise a blood blis- ter '.' A. Possibly the first two might not, but I don't think there was much difference in the seveiity of the blows; I tjhiinfc they were all giAen there similar. Q. l>id you ever, upon, any occasion, while Mr. Brockway was admiuisTering this kind of punishment, check Mr. Brookway, or tell him to stop ? A. I thinli I told h\vn one day the man had enough. Q. Do you recollect that man's name ? A. I think, if my memory serves me, his name was Tapler; it is seven or eight years. Q. Do you remember his number ? A. I do not. (}. Do you recollect upon what part of the person the blows were inflicted upon that occasion ? A. I always saw them on the buttocks. Q. The same as you indicated here a little while ago ? A. Y^. Q. How far did the blows reach around the person; did the strap curl around him ? A. I don't suppose it curled around at all; the sitrap wasn't over two feet long at the outside, ~ I don't think. Q. Upon thiis occasion that you refer to that you requested Mr. Brockway to desist, what was the fact with reference to the blows being struck upon the beUy of the person ? A. He wasn't struck on the belly; I think, if my memory serves me, that 313 Itlr. Brockway said to me, "Don't you think twenty is abiout enougii tor this man ?" and Mr. Brockway's face was toward me but the prisoner's face wias turned away, and Mr. Brockway done it in a jocose manner,- of coua-se; I said, "I thinli so;" after Mr. Brockway had struck h.im four times he desisted, and I said, " I thinlc he has had enough," and Mr. Brockway said, "Take him hack ;" we ^idn't chain the man at all. Q. Did you eyer see Mr. Brockway strike a man, over the face or head ? A. I saw him slap a man once on each cheek with his hand, ' ' Q. At a time when he was paddling him ? A. No ; this man wasn't in for punishment. Q. .Where was he ? A. He was down in No. 4, in the old soh tary, we were taking him down,; he was reported by the doctor as demented, or was playi^g it; the doctor hadn't detei-mined which, I believe, at that time; we were taking him down to the solitary for- disturbing the corridors ; I think Mr. Prockway slapped him like that ; not severely, not hard enough to hurt the man any more than a common. cufE would hurt anybody. Q. 1)0 you lemember an inmate known by the name of Rosen- decker, a young Hebrew? A. I remember a fellow named' Bosen- decker, a red-headed Jew, I think. Q. Do you know of his being punished? A. No; I don't remem- ber of his being punished; I remember his being locked' in for punSs'hment, but he'wasn't punished. Q. For being unable to do his task? A. Toi do his task, but he wasn^t punished at that time. ^ Q. Were the inmates freqiiently punished because they were unable to do their tas.ks? A. I don't think for that alone, although I don^t know. ' Q. Give the fuU particulars in refei^ence to thisi Eosemideckeir case? A. As I remember it, his hands were sore, but 'as soon as Mr. Brockway di'scoivered that he had a sore hand he excused him from the punishment; I believe he told him he would punish him if he didn't do his task, and he was marked in and Mr. Brock- way let him off. , Q. You isay he was marked in and was to. be punished with ottieiB, and you requested Broickway to let him off, didn't you? A. I think I called Mr. Brockway's attention to the fact the man's hand was sore. j By Mr. Oralg: Q. I woilld lilfe to know who marked him in? A. I suppose the duty man on the block. 40 314 Q. On wh'sub report, from whom? A. From tlie gxuurd-rooim floor office, presumably from Mr. Brockway; I preerane the order was Mr. Brockway's. . Q. Mr. Brockway ini persora? A. Yes, sir. Q. That, in the ordinary course of procedure here, would be on report from the Aops? A. Yes; and general aocoimulations from reports, as the reports were made at that time. Q. I called your aMention more pairtioularly to> the case where inmates were flret paddled; have you seen them in another place? A. No; I never saw anyone paddled there; I never went down in the north block. Q. Did you ever see anyone paddled in what is called No. 4, the bath-room? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How frequently did these paddlinge occur during the time you were there, about how many aj day would they average? A. I have known of three or foiir men being marked in for punisih- ment, and then I have known it to go sometimes only one. And sometimes for a long time there wouldn't be any for a few days. Q. How many would it average per month? A. I couldn't give an estimate in an intelligent manner, because I think it would vary to a great extent; I know at Ohristmas time men were restored from the third to the second grade arbitrarily by the superinitendent, and men that would have been punished in the common course of events from the accumulation' of reporbsi, the reports were stricken out, and the men were resifcored to, their gra-de. and so on. Q. How many did it average a day or week approximately? A. I couldn't guess; I should say possibly perhaps twenty a month and perhaps sixty; that is as: dose as I could guesa By Judge Gilbert: Q. About how blows on an average? A. I should say four. Q. How many was the most blows that you ever knew to be given one person at one time? A. I never isaw but seven or eight at the outside. Q. How often have you known inmates to be paddled? A. I think twice is all I know of one man being punished. Q. How near together? A. I think a man whom I have in my mind was punished once one day ajid once the next, if I remember. Q. I >o Tou \•uo^\ how many blows were given him each day ? A. I think he got — the first day I didn't see Mm pilnlshed, but the secotnd day I think he was struck eight times. ' Q. Do you remember his name? A. Steiln^ I think; I don't remember Ms number. 315 By Iilr. Craig: Q. T want to call the ajteiitioii of the witnessi tO' two paddles which he holds in his hand, one with the handle intact and the other with the handle broken:; it is in evidence so far that the one with the handle intact is the one now in use, and the other Avas the one fcwmeirly in use ? A. That looks like the paddle I saw. Q. Which one ? A. The one with the handle intact. Q. You observe that paddle is one thickness of leather and that the one you saw in use here in your time was two thick- nesses V A. My memory wasn't clear on that subject; I pre- sume T was mistaken, although I was under the impression there was a row of stitching or something; I don't suppose I ever examined the paddle very particularly, altiiough I remember hav- ing it in my hand once. Q. Your present statement is the paddle you held in your hand and which has the handle intact, is simUafr to the one you saw ? A. That locks very similar to the one I saw, stUl it might be this one. Q. Might be the one with the handle broken ? A. It might be, ' only it was in a good state of preservation, although that one loolvS like the paddle I saw used. Q. The one witii the handle unbroken ? A. Yes, sir; I couldn't say either were the paddles I see; it is seven years since I was here. • . i . By Judge Grilbert: ' Q. While the men were being paddled, in what manner have you hf'^rd they requested Mr. Brockway to desist and not to punish them ? A. The thing that remains most distinctive on my mind is, " Mr. Brockway;" that is the usual thing they* would say, " Oh, Mr. Brockway." Q. An exclamation, " Oh ?" A. Yes, sir. Q. W'lien they would say that would Brockway, as a general thing, stop ? A. No; a man would say that every time he got hit; ho would be apt to say it the first time. Q. Why would he be apt to say it the first time ? A. Because it hurt, and took him by surprise. (}. Were the blows apparently, with full force ? A. I couldn't say that ; they were given vsdth quite a degree of force; they hurt all right. <-i. W'hat do yon mean by hurting all right ? A. A man'si but- tocks were bare; an arm blow with that paddle would hurt and it would hurt very severely if I am any judge of it, not having experienced it, but only from seeing. 316 Q. WheneTer the tlow was given the man would exdatm ? A. Yes. Q. Would lliey cry often ? A. Yes; I Itave heard them cry. Q. Heai-d them beg ? A. Yes; heard them beg. Q. Heard them promise ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When they would beg or cry and promise, would the blows stop ? A. Sometimes; not in all cases, if I remember it. Q. Do you remember any cases when they did not stop when the prisoner cried, begged and promised ? A. I remember two cases where the man begged before he had been spanked art: all. Q. Before he had ever been in ? A. He was down there being talked to; the superintendent was talking to him in the solitary. Q. Do you know those were cases where the convict never had been paddled before ? A. I imagined he had not, although I don't know. j Q. As a general thing when they were taken in there they \veri> very much fiightened ? A. Some of them, were, and some of them ^vere net. Q. Don't you know some of them, while they were being pun- ished, had passage of the bowels, and so on ? A. Yes. Q. While the\- were being punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. But the punishment would go right on ? A. Yes, sir; I tliinlv so, in one instance. Q. Do you know of any inistamce where the iama,tes were struck after they were taken into ithe room No. 4, by edther Mr. Brockway or the attendants in ajny other way or anytMmg else besides the j.addle ? A. 1 never saw an inmate struck with anj-thing else, but I have known of snich oases. Q. What do you mean by siayinig you have known of them? A. A man by the name of Fahey who artrtemipted to asisia iilt Mr. Beach, I believe^ got hit over the head with a cane and I sewed up his head. Q. Where was he when that blow wasi delivered ? A. At the end of the noi'th block; whjit was the end of the north block at that time befoire this extension was built. Q. Was thajt blow given? A. He was taken down there for punishment and he fouight and Mr. Beach hit him over the head with a stick, and when he came back to the cell his head was bleeding, amid Mr. Brockwiay told me I had better look after that man; I asked him whialt the trouble was' and he said Beach had knocked hiia head off; I asked him "what did he knock your head off fta*," and he said, "I wasi trying to do liim;" so I imaginieid he was attemiptiug to assault Mr. iBeach. Q. Have you seen Inmiates' who have been to the bath-room with black eyes and bruisied headsi? A. I have seen one or iwo oases whenie a man had a btruaBie; yesi. 317 Q. Where were the bruises ? A. I tliiiik one man had a contu- eioM ooQi Ma cheek there. ; Q. Whait was his njaane? A. I oan't tpecall it now; I remember haw ttue man looked. Q. Was he taken to the hospital? A. ISTo, sir. Q. Did you treat him? A. !N6, sir; the sldn wasn't broken. Q. His eyes were blackened? A. No; it was too far over here; i(; was on his cheek bone; it looited as if he had been punched on his cheek, and I presiuime he hajd. Q. Is that the only case you saw diuirinig the time you were there that an inmate had iblruiises eLther on hia face oir the side of his head? A. I thiliik ithiere was a man by the name of lApeline that , had a oontusiomi oni his jaw ; I don't know how he goit it.; 1 know he was down tLei"e for punishment and I know he had a contusion on his jaw. Q. I think you .stated you never i saw Mn. Birockway stiike a priaoneir over the head on across the face with the paddle? A. I never did. Q. About how miamy of these paddlinga did you witness? A. Not any f;reat number; I was only in the hall a few days while Mr. Beach waa on his wedding tour; a veay few tainie® aside from that time wais I ever in. Q. It waisn't pant of youin duty to accompany the prisoners to the ]>ndJling-i-oom ? A. No, sir. Q. Except a few times 'th'at you \Vepe perfo^rming dutiea in the place of Jtlir. Beach? A. No, sir; it wasn't my re^lar duty to go there. Q. What you have .stated primcipaily occunred during those few days? A. Principally; yes, sir; a short time; I don't remembei- juBtt how long it waa; whethter it was two weeks. By Mr. Oraig: Q. I would like to aisk the witness with reference to' thisi case that he has deaciriibed aa condition on the cheek indica.ting as you said he had been thumped; wasi that the left cheek? A. As I ^ remember now I think it waa his left cheek. Q. What do you meau by siayihg he had been thumped? A. As though the had been punched. ' Q. With the fist? A. Yea, sir. Q. You were iaccustomed to obiaeTive injuries and to judge of the ca.uiaes, and thait ia yoiuir opinion; is it? A. Yesi, sir; I should imagine tha* ia whalt done it. Q. What was the date? A. I can't give the name. Q. Can you give it approximately? A. No;. I can't; the books would show ait what time Mr. Beach was on 'his wedding tour. 318 Q. How long were you called upon to go into that room wliCTe these paddlingB were inflicted? A. It might have been ten days and might have been three weeks. ' Q. Did you see any man resist there, that is,, refuse to submit to be reduced to the paddling? A. No, sir; I don'l^ think I ever did. Q. Did you ever see a man thrown to the floor? A. I was called to the bath-room one day and found a man] on the floor, and the superintendent said he haxi fainted, but he hadn't; he was pre- tending he had. Q. Was he taken to the hospital? A. No; he was lying on the floor; I stooped down; the man was pale aU right, and lay on the floor in a peculiar position,, and looked as if he had fainted all right from the position he laid; I opened his shirt and put my ear to his heart, and his heart was beating. Q. Are you able to say he didn't have that condition which would mlake him fall on the floor witthoiut simiulatiinig? A. I waJsn't there when he fell. Q. Are yon able to say he did fall on the flootr wMile simnlatinig a fainting condition? A: I am not able to say that; the only thing was I pulled down his eye-lid and tested his eye and he squirmed and jumped up. Q. He might be approaching a fainting oonditioii before a recovery? A, He might have been. Q. Had he been spanked? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see anyone resist, or see anyone threatening to resiyt, and reduced to submission by fotee applied? A. No, sir. Q. They all took the punishment without resistanioe? A. They all did as far as I remember. Q. Did you ever see anyone carried out 015 supported out from the room in which the paddling was inflicted? A. No', sir. Q. Did you ever see anyone carried to the hospital who had been recently paddled? A. No, sir. ' Q. Did you ever kno^' of any cell that was underneath the cells on the ground floor? A. There never was anyi while I was here. Q. It has been alleged that there were, and I am advised it is stUl alleged, although it has been positively stated by witnesses there were not, therefore I wish to call the attention of those who might know? A. Never were amy oeHs' lower than> the regular flag. Q. Where the windows are? A. Yes, sir. By Judge G-Ubert: Q. Did you ever have anything to do with placing the prisoners in the solitairies? A. Yes, sir; I have taten' piritoners to the solitary. * 319 Q. "When taken there how did! you usually oonifine them? A. In diflerenit way®. ' Q. I ask you usually? A. Usually be handcuffed to a ring in the wall, I think there was a ring in the wall about twelve or fourteen inohees from the floor; I think we usied to put a handcuff around a man's wrist and fasten it to a ring in the wall. I Q. Tharf) was before the three-comer cells were built? A. Yes, sit. Q. For how many days have you known them to remain in tlie cell handcuffed in that way? A. I don't remember. Q. Your best reodllection? A. I should say three days, as neajr as 1 can rein-ember, possibly not over twoi; maybe longer than that. Q. Have you ^veil seen them chained in the cells in any other way? A. Yes, sir. Q. How ? A. Why, down in the old solitary there was a pair of shackles, with a chain six, seven or eight feet long between, the two, ajnd they used occasionally to put that on a man's legs and throw the chain through the bar and put it on his other leg. Q. When prisoners were chained in the old cells that you refer to, to a ring in the wall, was there any way by which they could lie down ? / A. Yes, sir. Q. Was a bed furnished ? A. Yes, sir; Q. And stool ? A. A bucket; yes, sir. Q. What was their fare wheuj confined in that way ? A. I don't remember of ever taking the victuals there but three or four times at the outsidJe, because it wasn't my duty to go in. the soli- tary, aside from the time I was in the hall, but I think' it con- sisted of bread and water, and I think at noon I took a man a basin of soup or stew of some description, although I am very uncertain as regards to that, • because I see so much victuals served at different cells that I couldn't recall. Q. You don't claim to have ever studied medicine ?, A. No, sir. Q. Or had any exi)erience as a physician further than your cour necition with the hospital here as an attendant ? A. Thalt is all. iBy Mr. Litchfleild:' Q. You stated you saw one man paddled who had been paddled the day before; how do you know he had been paddled the day before; any marks on him ? A. Yes, sir; some marks on his buttocks. ^ Q. What kind of marks ? A. Inflamed marks; the paddle leaves a mark, and they were there the next day. Q. Any abraj^ions of the skin. ? A. I don't think they were, m pin case; I don't think the skin Avas broken, but it was all minutely spotted with little corpuscles of blood, ihsd. showed through the surface. 320 Q. Where were ih.e blows applied on tlie seoond paddling? A. Where it was first. Q. On top of the little blood spots ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did it seem to burt more than a man paddled on th.e clear skin ? A. It didn't seem to hurt tbis prisoner very severely; he didn't cry or take on. Q. How many blows Avere given Mm ? A. I think eighjt. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did any of these piisoners ever, at any time, bave any treatment in the hospital for bruises or blows received ? A. Not to my knowledge. Q. Do you know what that fellow was punished for that was punished two days in succession ? A. No, sir; I think he was afterwards ti-ansfeiTed to Auburn as incorrigible Stein. his name was By Mr. Craig: ,' Q. I would like to ask you about these drops of blood; I under- stand the drops of blood wouldn't stand on the skin under siuch circumstances ? A. I don't know how to illustrate; there would bo a stain of blood on the surface. Q. Did they stain anything ? A. Not that I know of, only the skin. , Q. Might it have been a blister or blood exuding through the skin ? A. My impression is it was blood exuding through the skin. Q. It wouldn't stand on the skin under those circumsitances ? A I think it did, if I remember it; I don't think there was any quantity that exuded forth. Q. Would it stain the skin ? A. It wouldn't stain it in one continuous mass, but there A\otdd be specks of blood on the surface. Q. Could you rub it off ? A. I think so; I never tried. Z. R. Brookway, recalled: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. When did ycni flommenoe making a reoolrdi or keeping a recwd of the punishments, or the character of punisiunents inflicted? A. Always. Q. Your boobls don't show thJart,? A. The necoind isi kep* always; it is no!t laiways on the face of the ledger. Q. How far back does the record show the number of blows that were inflicted upon each oteoaeion, when a comviot was paddled or sparaked? A. The number of blowsi inflicted upon any and ■y ■:■:'' ■• 321 every ooaiYiot can be ascertained from the records, tlie conduct ledgw record; I think ^\•e began to put the number of blows on the, face oif the ledger beginning 1891; 1890, perhapa. (J. Ho that the records of the reformatory do not show the number of blows that were inflicted prior to 1890, (iv 1891? A. There is a record of the number of blows inflicted| prior to 1890, but not on the ledger. Q. Wh;ere is that recoird? A. On the oriiginal reports. Q. Those are not in book form? A. No; on flleis of papers; ten of those. Q. Would it be very difficult to find the original reports or the .original memorandum with refei*ence to the kinds of punishment, by spanking, the number of blows that were inflicted in the case ' that has been referred to by Father Bloomer? Mr. Hoppe. — I do not think it would be difficult. , . Judge Grilbert. — Will you try amd find it? Ml". Hoppe. — Ye®, sir. Mr. Staqichfleld. — Why don't that name go upom the record? Judge ftUbert. — I think a«. far as we can we ougjbt to respect the feelings of friends. Mr. Hoppe. — Consecutive numbei" 342; the reason I think this is the man iS that he was paroled on account of being fatally ill, by special order of the managers, and that he died soon after at his home; in that particular it corresponids; however, I should state Father Bloomer said this occurrence took plajce six years or so ag,o, while this man died in 1881, twelve yeairs ago. There is another, McGlyn,' there is another man by this name, consecu- , tive number 1059. Mr. Oaig. — It is understood w'hatever you state here is under your oarfjh^ Mr. Hoppe. — There is another man by that name, or has been in the institutioGm, his consecutive number waiS 1059; he made an absdlutely perfect record, was pa-roled after fifteen months, and absolutely released six months after parole; for that reason I don't think he is the man referred to. Mr. Craig. — You are almost certain the number you first gave, judging from the data of the records, correspond with the identifi- cation of the comict by the witness. Father Bloomer ? Mr. Hoppe. — I think so. Mr. Litchfield. — ISIr. Brock^say, does this official i-ecord since 1891 show the character of the punishment inflicted and the number of blows inflicted upon each occasion ? Mr. Brockway. — Yes, sir. ^Ir. Litchfield. — Without any omissions whatsoever? Mr. ,Birockway. — Yes, sir; absolutely correct 41 322 Mr. Oalg.— You have also stated the number of blows includes the number of blows ujwn the head or face ? Mr. Brockway. — Yes, sir. Joseph H. Beach, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside ? A. Elmira. Q. What is your occupation ? A. I am general insurance agent; slate treasurer of an insurance company. Q. What is your age ? A. Thirty-eight. Q. Were you ever in any way connected with tike Elmira refonn- atory ? A. I was. Q. Emm what tune to what time ? A. From the latter part of Sc^-ptember, 1876, until the first day of November, 1886. Q. A period of about ten years ? A. Ten years and two months. Q. In what capacity were you employed ? A. I was yard mastep, shop-keeper, supieiriinteiMieiit of the schbol and principal keeper. Q. Xot simultaneoiLsly ? A. I was superintendent of the school and principal keeper at the same time. Q. "V\Tien yardmasrter ^hat were your general duties ? A. Simply to look after the work being donp in the yard by the dif- ferent gangs, in a sort of general "way. Q. In the ca^pacity in which you acted were, you brought geiiar- ally in contact or were the inmatew generally bi'ought or passed before you almost every day during your employment ?• A. Yes, sir. Q. So that from day to day you saw nearly all of the inmates more or less ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever, upon any occasion, see any inmates punished in what is called the bath-room ?. A. I have. Q. Was there more than one place in which prisoners were punished ? ' A. Yes, sir. Q. Go on and describe the different places in which they were punished during the time that you were engaged there ? A. There was part of the prison at that time known as Xo. 4 ; it was a part used 3s a part for seclusion, for refractory prisoners; pun- ishments were administered tliere, also in the bath-room, and on very feA^ occasions in a school-room, in wha4^, I think, was called reformatory. Q. Have punishments been inflicted in any other place than No. 4, since No. 4 has been used as a bath-room ? A. No. 4 has never been used as a bath-room, or was never used as a bath- room during the time I was employed in the reformatory. Q. Were inmates punished in No. 4 while you were here ? A. Yes, sir. 323 Q. Stiate in your own way in wliat manner were prieoners pun- ieted in the room that you first refen-ed to ? A. Did I refer to No. 4: first ? Q. Yes, sir; tlie solitary. A. There were various luodes of pun- ialnnent, If you call it punisihment, in No. 4; men at different ti]iies were depriyed of certaiu privileges, certain rations, and at other times they were handcuffed in a stan.ding/ position to a ring or to the bars of the door, and at other timesi as a matter of restraiat, they were handcuffed toi a sliding bar, and at other times they were paddled ; tliere might have been other modes of punisluneinit: that have slipped my mind now. Q. Yoiu have referred' to the primoipal methodsi of punishment? A. Yes; I don't recall any others at present. Q. You siay that one method of .punishmyent was to handcuff them, or chain them in cells? A. Ye®, sir. Q. For how long a time, or how^ long was the longest time that you have ever known a priusoner io be coMflned in a cell chained? A. Standing at the door as a mode of punislhnienit; I have never knoffs^n a man to be compelled toi stand in that position) to^ my knowledge now longer than ten hours; generally the working hours of the day; miight possibly have gome Over that, but thajt was the rule or regulationi, to have tihem stand there while tihe other prisomieips were working; fastened to the ring or to the sliding bar; tiiey have been confined in that way for a numben of weelvs at a time, as a^atter of restraint; where they had a very refractory prdsoner, or one oonsideredl diamgerous to handle, he would be liandcuffed by one hand and be held in that position for quite a length of time, sometimes; but he ha,d an opportunity in that event of stamiding or siitting, but of not walking about the cell. I \ Q. How long have you known them to be chained to the ring in the wall br both hands? A. Only, during the working hours of the day. Q. That, you say, was where they were chained up to- the door? A. The old ring that we had at one time, as I remember it, waa just a.bout the same height as the door, but it wasi in a different portion in the cell; I even may be mistaken about that, but it isi my recollection that there was such a ring, but the man would stand in'the same" position and he would be treated in the same manner as though at the door. > Q. In the first place, about what was^ the size of the cell you refer to? A. I should judge it was- about eight by eight, and afterward there was a partltiolni put through fixim the door lead- ing back to one corner, for the purpose, of keeping the inmate in ftWnt of the door. 324 Q. The cells were so divided, paititiomed, tlhat tliey bcf-anie three-comered cells? A. Yes, sir; eihape of flat-iromL Q. So the c-ells before those paiPtition® v>-vn- ptit in, were sqiiaii-c cells, about eight feet square? A. I should judge thai \n;us^ about the size. y Q. How high fi"om the floor -was this ring in ihv wall, the sta- tionary ring? A. It. was aboiut the height that a man's hjimds would come if standing in this position; just about the height that you find the bar of the door at present, fVmr or four feet, and a half feet. Q. Whereabouts in the ix)om was it, in the corner or center of the wall? A. As I iwollect, it was about two feet from the coraer; regarding that I knoAx I a,m not absoilutely' certain; it i» ■ the beet of my kno^nledge and belief regarding that. Q. How long was the chain between the cuflfsi? A. I should judge about six inchesi. Q. So that when he wais chained in that jwBiiltion, he comldn't mov^ his hands more than about six inches? A. About that I should judge Q. You say that in no inisitance a prisoner Avaw chained and kept in that poeitioin beyond the working hourei of the day? A. I wouldn't say that in no insitance had that nccnrred, but I womld say that genei-ally it would be less than tliat, tor the reason they were handcuffed up in that position after the other inmates had been sent, to wor-k, and they Axere le# down very soon after, if not tjefore the others had been received into their cellsl from the shops. I Q. In what position werel they fastened in the cells after they were let down from the one that you have referred to? A. Most invamibly they were liberated, had the freedom of the cell during the night. Q. So that, they were not chained up in that way because they were dangerous? A. Ts'^ot generally. Q. TMiat were the-y generally chained up there for? A. (ren- ei'ally for refusing to work, and required to v-Jtand in tfeab posi- tion while the other inmates were working. Q. With refr-rence to the length of timie that the^^ were chained to the sliding-bar that you refer to, hoiw long liave you known them to be chained in that way, how long a time? A. I believe \vc have had men chained to that bar for a nuniber of A\eeks at a time. Q. Do you mean to say you never had them chained to that bar by both hands? A. Xever, one 'hand to the bair. Q. While they were chained in the cells, did the physician xisit them -daily? A. Xo, sir; not unless his attention was called to them'; I don't think that he did. 325 Q. As a general thlHig, by whose omder were prdsoners chamed ip in the cells? A. Always by order of the superin'tieindenib. Q. Didn't the first and second keeper do that -RiLenever theiy saw fit? A. Ne\er without the siuperintendemt's order. Q. Yaa say pojsdtively that no prisoner was confined, tha* is, chained in his cell, in amy way, except by the order of the superin- endpnt? A. I do^ siir. - , , , Mv. OraLg.— Do yon refer to both cilasses of cell and botih ways ■ )f clhainlng? The witness. — Yes, mr. Mr. Oraiig. — Those chained to the door for refujSMig to work r ta well as those chained a longer tame? , '';■' -' The wi+iies's. — Yes, siir. Q. Yon sipeaJc of another method of pnnisihmient, that is, that, iiey were paddled? A. Yes, sir. By' Mr. Oraig. Q. I woTild like to ask yoiu how many solitary ceUs there were luring your period here? A. In the part of the prison tihait was iesignaited as No. 4? Q. What part is that? A. That is what we called the old solitary. Q. What part is it now? A. In fajct, I do not knOw; it is ilojanged; it wais at that tdinie in the extreme sonthwest paivilioo. Q. Now, tlien, go on? .V. I think there were tiMTity'-two cells^ our on a tier, four tiers on n. sidei, and on both sideS' of the xxrriidoir. Q. Were they 'all solitai-y cells? A. We designated that as the lart of the prison, tout the cells were neatlily lighted itliiei same as :he othei' part of the prison, and were just the same only they ivere more commodionsi, with thla exception of a few cells', per- ijiips eigli't, iMiat wei-e fixed up 'as I have described, with that >ai"titiorQ through. Q. Did any of them have screened doors? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did any of them liave dark dooirsi or blind dooi-s? A. Theire viis the refj-ular ba.r doors on all cells, :then thei-e was a wire icreen door. I Q. On kow many? A. The wire screen door, I thinli was on, : know it was on four; I don't knew whether it wais on any aore; 'then thea-e was a board door, that was su'metimes ujsed, hnt around that door. Q. On four, board dooi' on tJhe same foxir as the screen door? L Ye^, sir; had the boaid dooi- al'so'; tliey weren't there all the ime. ' Q. The bpM'rd door was a, doo'i- which, if closed, woidd excluda he light? A. It womld; it wouldn^t be abiao'lutely dairk. 326 Q. A littk' crevice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tlie scrw-'n dooi* did not extlnde tlie light? A. Xo, sir. Q. Pleven ied tJie passitig out or in of inistnimenfe oi* things? A. That ^^■as the otoject of it. I Q. Do you know of any other solittajry cells? A. Thei* weire none. ' Q. Were any of those tlhMy-two beneaith (the grofond floor? A. None of them. Q. Did yon know of amy cells ia the institution benea.th the gTounid floor? A. Never. Q. Did you ever hear of any? A. I have heai-d; of tihieui, buti I was positive tlhere wene no such cells. Q. When did you hear of them? A. 'The question was asked, me a short time a^ regairding t^hat, asking if there wei'e such cells; I stated there weine none at the time I was here, and I believe there are none at present. Q. You didn't hear of it duicdng your incumibency here? A. No. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Are these eight eoiitairiesi so aiiTamged that the windows to the hall or part of the prison where the solitaries ajre construe -ted, are one side of 'the building? A. The windows in that department wei^ right opposite the cells. Q. On one side of the room; that is these eight cells are in the ' center of the large room an alley- way or open space nil aawund? A. At that time there was a centetr wall. Q. Do you know anything about there being portable doors that could be taken and placed over any cell door that you might see fit? A. There were such dooiis at one time. Q. Were prisoners soanetimeis Auit in cells when these closed dooi« weae placed over the u*om door? A. Yesi, sir. Q. There were times when pr-isoners were put in what is called close or dark roooois? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long a time have you known priisonens tO' be confined it that way? A. I couldn't say as to the length of time. Q. You must have some pretty correct notion about it? A. At the time those doors were used thaJt you refer to, I was not principal keeper; they were used in this first block, occasionally; there would be a wooden door placed over the iron door; it would be there for a few days. Q. Continuously? A. No, sir; it would be taken off part of the time; ilt would be taken off always when t'he men wei-e in there to be fed Q. But only for siuch purpose and at short intervals would it be off, as far as you know? A. Yes, sir. 327 Q, It would We kepitl oai witili the eixcepitiiom of feedimg and taJdng jare oif tihe piriisioiieips until tbe prisonew was finally released from iliat kkiid of cooaflneaneat? A. In many instamces ttie prisoueir Ma& working dtirdng Hie dlay, amd tte door was put on ait any inue; tbatl was yeaps ago; long beforei I was principal keeper. Q. How, many yeairs ago? A. I isihould judge thait must have )een sixteen years ago. By Mr. OaAg: i Q. How lomg after sixteen yeans ago did you know of diark doors lefiinig used? A. I have niever known of amy such. dooirS' being used since that titne, wirtih the excaptioin of thie few doors we have lesoMbed in No. 4, that waisi h.umg tliare on himgeisi. Q. On the f^ur ceLLsi? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Did you ever know of their bedug used on thoise cells? A. les, sir. Q. How many timeisi? A. I couldn't siay. Q. Fifty titaeH dk> you think? A. Possibly; but I hardly hink ISO. Q. You couldn't sweiar it wasn't fifty? A. No, sir. C^. What is the next time that that door was ever closed on any »ne cell, to your knowledge? A. That I couldn't eitate. (^. Stalte approximately? A. Prabably two or three days. Q. Down to what period of 'timie did those thingSi occur? A. I )eiieve that was in vogue unitil I left, which was in 1886; they i'ere rarely used. ' ' Q. But they were used? A. Yesi, sir. Q. 1- call- you]' attention to what is my present impression that oiu- recollection ditTers from the recollection of the superin- eiident, wlio s^iol^e on that subject the other day, so 1 wanted you be precise. ?>lr. Brock way. — No, sir. 3Ir. Craii;-. — Perhaps 1 am mistaken. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You sitated that those doors were used sometimes at night 'hUe the prisonfflis were working; why were they used at night? L. At that time Avhen those doors were used, it was; I think, as remember now, what was termed as No. 4, was not completed, ud they were used for prisoners that had made an attempt to jcape during the year 1876, when this wing was being con- LTiicted, and these prisoners that I refer to were working every ay on the building and at night they were placed in those cells, / thev would have no communicatioii with others' passing a the gallery. 328 By Mr. Craig: Q. Screen doora would effect tbat ? A. Yes, sir; tbere were lio screen dooz-s at tbat time, not uiitil .velars later; no wire doorst By Mr. Litchfield: Q. In regard to fastening prisoners by the two hands for ten hours, were tliey ever let down for the purpose of stooling ? A. They have been. ' (J. ^^'hat was the custom ? A. The cus.tom was if a man — one of the officei's jjassing by, if such aa operation, was necessaiy, he would be taken down for that pui'poso. By Judge (lilbert: Q. How often was it the duty of an offlcer to pass the cells ? A. There were times when there \\as no offlcei- in No. 4, except oooasionally would look in on them, and there were other times when, there was an olticer in constant attendance. By Mr. Oaig: Q. I woidd call your atteuitiou to mj fonner inquiry as to cells below the grade of the j^Tound floor, and 1 understood you to state tbat you nerei' knew of any such cells, and you never heard of them while you were in the institution ? A. I am positive there \\'tTe no such cells at that time; I «a 9 familiar with eveii'v spot of the institution. Q. If there were any such cells you would have known it ? A. Surely. Q. You say not only you u,ever heard of such cells, but you knew there were no such cells ? A. I am positi\e there were 'no such cells. By Judge Gilbert: Q. ^^'hen did you first hear there were underground cells ? A. I believe it w&fi about two weeks ago. Q. Never heard anything about it until tliat time ? A. No, sir. Q. Coming down to th^t part of the discipline which you have referred to, which we will call paddling, what do you know with reference to men being punished in that way ? A. I ha^e seen various men punished in that way. Q. During the entire time that you were there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know about how frequently that occurred ? A. Sometimes there -nould be quite a length of time intervene with- out any such punishment; I believe there hajs been probably a month without any of that kind of punisiluuent; possibly longer. Q. About how many would they average per month during the years and during the time that you were connected with the 329 ;formatory ? A. While I -Was in other positions than principal ?eper 1 wouldn't be able to give even a remote idea regarding it. Q. How long a time were you principal Iceeper ? A. I believe > years. Q. About how many tim'esi would it average per month during lat six; yeairs? A. Sometimes there would be five or six a daiy, I'her times there wouldn't be any for a week oi" so: or more. Q. But about how many would be your best judgment; would - average per' month during the six years you were principal seper? A. I don't think it would exceed ten a month. Q. Did youi witness these paiddiings? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many blows usually were given? A. I tlunk on 1 average five. Q. How many were the greatest mimber? A. I think it, was velve. Q. You say you never knew any greater number oif blowis? A. hat was my recollection anidi belief; I have the individual istance of where it was tvrelve in mind, and I think that was le greatest. ' . Q. While the prisoners were being paddled or sitruok did you i^er see them punisihed or struck in any other way than with le paddle? A. I have. Q. By whom? A. By the isuperintendent. Q. Where? A. In the face. Q. What with? A. With his hand; someltimesi his fist. Mr. Craig. — -You mean by Ma fist, his closed fisit? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have yofu ever seen them struck on any other portion of their i)dy t!han upon the back with the paddle? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? A. I have seen' them sttruck over the head. Q. Any other place; that is, in the face or across tie face? A. 'es, sir. Q. With reference to the injuries caused by the blows, w'hat ave you obser^^ed with reference to tihe injurj' upon the back, here the inmate had been 'srtruck wdth the paddle? A. I have I'ver seen any ponnanent injury from it. Q. "WTiat have you seen with reference to the effect upon the cin, cutting it, or cansing the blooid to flow? A. I have never *t'n the blood to flow ; I have seen the akin turned black by reason ! the application of the paddle. Q.' Black during the operation? A. It would blacken during le operation,, not as dark as it would be aifterward. Q. Do you say you never, upon any occasion, have seen the lood coming to the surface of the skin in drops, or run down le back by the use of th^e paddle? A. Never have. 42 .Slv 330 (>. All that yoTi liave observed was the discoloration of the^ in? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever see blisters of any kind upon the back by thie blow of Ibe paddle? A. I have seen something- tliait might reisemble a blood blister in Ike skin. Q. Would those blood blisters usually be on the surface of the baclc wlierp the blow of the paddle had stnick the back? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how far around the body would those black and blue, spots or lines run? A. (generally just across th.e back; Uliey might reach over tbe side of the hip. , Q. HoAV high up on the back have you obsei-ved th.eni? A. I have seen tban pretty cloise to tlie small of the back. Mr. (Draig.— Please stand and designate what y^'hat did von ()lis(r\(- with reference to the appearance of the inmate's head or faci' ? A. I have seen the face somewhat reddened. , (l ^Yhat with reference to the eyes ? A. On one occa.9i6n I have seen the white of the eve tm-n red. (i. 1'ell ns exactly how those blows were given and how tliey came to be given ? A. The prisoner Avas brought in for disci- pline and the superintendent was adminisiteiing the punishment, or tl]e treatment as lie generally tenns it, and the prisoner was ordered to look in a c<^riain direction; he turned his head aaid the snpeiintendent warned him not to turn his head, but keep it in the direction he had told him to, and he failing tO' do that when he lurned his head he striulv him o^er the head and reddened the side of Lis face, and in one instance, as I rejcall, and only one, it i-eddeued the A^hite of the eye. Q. Do you mean to say in only one instance you saw the face reddened ? A. The eye reddened. (i. Tn othea' cases you ha\e s<'eii the reddened face ? A. Yes; lHit they were rare. . ' Q. Wlien the prisoner turned his face the fii'st time, and before ^(r. Brockway spoke to him, wouldn't Mr. Brockway, upon any (iccasion, strike the prisoner either over the head or across the face ? A. Xot that 1 recall; I don't remember such an instance. Q. On any occasion did you obsei\e any cut or bruise further thaf what you have statt^d ? A. No, sir. IJ. Did you see the pi'isoner a day or two afteir the blow was ui\'i'n ? X. Yes, sir. < i. "\Miat did you (>bser\-e then in reference to his face ? A. In such instances the face would be clear; in instances of that , kind J ha^'e never seen, tlie face veiy much disicolored; there would b! ■ a marls; of red instead of purple on the face. Q. Do yo\i mean to say you never, upon any occasion, saw a pris- oner where there A\as either a purj)le oa* black and blue spot upon his face, resulting from the blow ? A. I don't recall such an, iistauce; the reddening of the eye below and the reddening of the face caused by tlie blow, which cleared up pretty quickly, are the ()n]\' instances I recall of the kind. Q. Did you ever see any instrument used in this paddling pro- cess except the paddle ? A. Yes, sir; I have. Q. What other instrument have yon seen used ? A. I have seen a piece of rubber hose. <}. How long was that piece of rubber hose ? A. Probably two fett and a half. ■^-333 Q. Wliat was its diameter ? A. 1 sliQuld judge what would be teJiiied fhrce quartei- inch or inch. Q. Was it filled with \\'ater oir anything ? A. No, sir. (^ The paddle you saw us<^d, can you describe that ? A. I can. (i. AA'as it composied of double ov single sheets of leatiher ? A. Hi)),gk. Q. Did yon i^vvr see more than one kind of paddlle ueied cxcepl in. the case of rubber hoise? A. Xo, sir. Q. You .say you havH seen Brockway strike pristmers in the face with his hand and also with his fist; Avhere were they; what A\ere tliey doing when he struck thciu 'with his fisit? A. \b J recall such instances as that it is only in fairness to ^ir. Brock- way to say they were exaeiedingly rare; that is tmie, and jyrisoneris brought in for punishment, and as I , remembei" those circmn- stancea, after gi\ing, as he termed it, a shock, they were fre- quently not paddled; I don't kniow as they were paddled a;t all when he would give them thiat treiartmient; I don't recollect of their being stnack with the fist and paddlle too. Q. Is that all you have tio s^iy aibout it? A. Yes, sir; that is all. Q. Is it true that the prisoner when he caime in. to room No. 4 for the purpose of being disciplined, that he was met at the door by Mr. Brockway, and without Mr. Brookway saying aiwoa'^d to him was met with a blow in the face? A. No, sir; not as I recall such circunistances as that the ;supei4ntendent undertook to per- sonally admonish the men by words of reproof, and the men would stand in a sullen why and make no reply to his questions or interrogjitories, and the ^ssuperintendent, a^ he' told me ait the time, did it to awaken his dormant intellect or stir him up. Q. Would strike him in the face? A. Yes, sir; he did that Q. Soonetimes you say it would be with the flat of the Ivand and stometimea -with the fist? A. Yes, sir; biit rarely either. Q. How often did that occui-, or how many instances of that. kind oocuJTed 'while yoiu were there, tliat you know of? A. I .wouldn't want tx) swieiar that occurred mote than twice to luy recollection at present. . Q. Will you say it didn't rwcur as miany as ten timetrepared to stiate; I do not recollect. Q. But it cut Brockway's hand? A. Y^re, sir. Q. On his teeth? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that hi« hand bled? A. Yes, sir; it bled a little; one of his fingers. Q. On both occasions? A. I believe soi. Q. But you say you didn't pay enough attention to the inmate to see whether it cut his face or not? A. Undoubtedly, I did, at the time. ■ i Q. Don't you know whether his face bled or not? A. I wouldn't want to swear positively; I think it did, but I wouldn't swear positiv'ely such was the caise ; T think more than likely it did. Q. Don't you Imow, or don't you recollect it did? A. Noi, sir; T do not.; I neither know or recollect that it did. Q. What is your best irajwessiooi aibout it? A. My judgment wmild be that it did. Q. Whereabonits on hijS face, in your best judgment? ]Mr. Stiauchfleld. — ^Does the committee hold that is eTidencc? Mr. Craig. — Have you any impression about it? Judge Wlbert. — Before I go any further with this examina- tion, T really don't know what my rights aire here. Suppose the 7)rosecution puts upon the stand, which a.pparently, or which may. in fact, be an unwilling \\itness; or suppose, for instance, that the defense puts upon the stand a witness who appears to be or may be an uiiT\illing witness, would ycni deem it proper for me in' that case to press the witness? ; iVlr. Craig. — Certainly, in the discretion of the Attorniey-Creneral. Judge Gilbert. — I may abuse any disoretion. i ]\rr. Craig. — An unwilling' witness you can examine in the nature of a oross-examinatioin and ask him leading questioms. Thi^^ objection refers to another point. Your question was proper. You asked him if he had any impression after he said he had no definite recollection, but his answer was not technically proper. I asked him if he means by " best judgment " an impressioai on your mind, not as an inference or as recalling of an event that there was blood on the face of the prisoMer, which was produced by the blow? A. Really I have no irecollection negarding that, biit that would be the natural consequence. ]Mr. Craig. — That would be evidence, but if you have no defi- nite, xKtsitive recollection you may be asked, as the Attcxmiey- General did ask you, what is your impression) or best recolleotion on the subject, but it don't call for reasoning, it calls for recalling? 335 A, I am unable to recall whatheir thieire was amy blood or not. Judge! Gilbert. — You can see it may appear to one side that 1 am not punsuiug an indifferent oounse. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I don't think when, from a witness, you don't get iprecieely the answers you expect, that it is exactly fair play, wheire you are acting as a judge-advocate, to criticise the witness as unwilling. Mr. Oraig. — I don't think the judge criticised this witness as unwilling. Mr. Stanohfleld. — I understood him to eay so. Judge Grilber't. — I didn't say that he was; I mer^ely asked for ' instructions from the chairman of the committee as to what, in his judgment, would be a jvrojTeir line of duty for me to pursue in oase I came across such a witnesis, because I can see how^ it may be, that I would fail to perform my duty if I came aci'oss such a witness and Should fail to press him about that point. Mr. Sftanohfleld. — If tou will be as vigorous on our side as you are on the other we will, be perfectly satisfied. Judgt Gilbert. — I feel I am not, in the examination of any of these witnesses, pursuing them with that vigor I perhaps ought, and certainly not with the vigor 1 would if I was upon one side solely, but I don't want to overdo the matter. Mr. Craig. — Tii don't oceur to us there waiS' any impropriety in the question. His judgment is ruled out. Q. Now^s acxxHxiing to your best recollection, did blood flow from the effect of Mr. Brockway's blow? A. I dotft remember of see-, ing any blooid. - Q. Remember the question; my question is, according to your best recollection did it flow, that is all there is of it? A. I wish I could answer that, but really I don't remember of seeing any blood, except the blood that came from the superintendent, on his own hand; there might have been on the prisoner; there might have been plently of it, but I haven't any rememberance of it; I don't remember of seeing it; it might have been there. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I suppoise we might have it stricken out, " that it might have been there." Mr. Craig. — We Strike out all evidence that appears to be an inff-rence or th« result, of reasoning. Q. now many instances, according to your best recoUectioD, did you see Mr. Brockway strike inmates over the head or across the face witli the paddle ? A. The nunfcer would be impossible for me to remember; they were rare. (-1. Let me ask right here; have you been talked to by anyone in the intei'est of Mr. Brockway ? A. Not at all, sir. 336 Q. By anyoue I'ke, edthea- fare(ntly sufiu'iently intelligent to have the niauagt^uent, or to occupy the iiiijipitant position that he has occupied in connection witli the maudgenient of this institution, ought to be able to answer ])rc)Uiptly the simple questions I put to hiiu. .Ml'. Stanchfield. — ^ Without interfering, 1 submit this witness i^ perfectly fair. We never have approached him and the other t-idc lias, and I don"r see what Wght anybody has to place amy strictures on hhn here. Mr. Craig. — ■ T tliink I am under obligations to state the impres- sion on my mind that the witii,ess has been candid, .sincere and truthful, and careful to give prifisely what he does recall; of course I can not tell how careless he has been before this in responding to any inquiries. Mr. Babcock. — It ma\ be further stated an^ shown that his rclation.s are not kindly with the supeiintendent. Judge (Jilbert. — That may be true, but I want to know the fact about it; there may be something in his way of talking that inijiic'sses me instead of the fact, his unwillingness. Ki. Did you evei-, upon any occasion, see blood flowing from the t il'ccts of a blow over the head ? A. No, sir. (l Or pimches upon the head ? A. Not that I remember of. Q. Did you ever see inmatas taken toi the hospital after the piinishnient, or soon after ? A. Xo, sir. (j. Ever see inniatf^ faint while being punished ? A. I have no jXKsitive recollection of such an occurrc-nce, yet I have a faint, if you might call it, recollection of such an occniTence at one time of a man wilting down on the floor, but wry quickly recover- iii.ii — I couldn't give his name, and 1 wouldn't state absolutely, ] isitively, that it was a faint; it occuiTed to me at the tiipe, as I ivcall it noAA', that the prisoner was feigning. Q. I am asking for facts, if you saw any such thing as that (.(■cur ? A. Onoe, I think, a man, you might call it, wilted; went to the floor. Q. I asked you if you ever saw a man. that fainted while he was vndergoing punishment ? «A. I never have. (,>. Except in the manner you have stated ? A. That is all. Q. Do yon recollect that man's name? A. I do not. (i. Do you recollect his number ? A. I do not. Q. Can you state about when, it was ? A. I believe it was in the J ear 1885. 337 Q. Do you remember the nimnben of bloiwB that were idflic&d at that time ? A. I do not. Q. Do you know wketter he was struck in any mother place thaiu ou his buttock ? A. It is my impression he was not. swear ainyrthing? A. Hundireidls of tiines ; scores of times I will say we took a priisoner m thieine for dis- cipUmairy purposes and wie inviaffilaibly searched hjim and without any trouble at aU we discovered a weapon on him without any resiistance on his paitt we take the weapon fromJ him. Q. That wasn't my quies*iom; my quesrtSon was hiajd a weapon and threatened with it; which you saild was more than twenty -five times'? A. I didn't say it was in No. 4. Q. I am' talking of no other place? A. You try to go biaek to that stiatememit. Q. I will repeat the queisitioni then, were there aisi miamy as twenty-five times that a prisoneir! had a weapon and ithpeate'ned with it in this place where paddling was adlniniistielried? A. I think there was probably twenty rfive times; the exact number would be impossible for me to st|ait)e. Q. Do you mean to say that in every case where you dosed with a prisoner and threw him he had a weapon and was threajten- ing with? A. No, sir. Q. How many times did you close with a priisonier and throw Mm when he had no weapon and was' threa'tening with no weapon in thte place whetre paddling is administaried? A. Thalt I would be unable to determine^ or, even to appsroximlate. 341 Q. You eaJi'lJ say tihiaJt it waa miarie "tliaiii' omcie, or temi tttoieis, or twetaty? A. PePliapisi, moiB itiLaiQ ten times; 'hie woiuld resist ai'tHofugli not haiviiig a weapon; lie would neisiist aflidi refuse to staMd as required, and siomietimes we would determime to Mind- cuff Mm aipid theni we would hiave a souffle. Q. Ifow, could ithere not be a eiufflcieint number of men where a piflsoner wak simply resfiisiting tlh.e proicess of kandcufflng to siub^ due bim without tbrowing him otr buutdng him? A. No, siir; you could have itbe solitaiy full 'aind be woirld resist just the same way. , ' Q. Ooiuldn't. a man take hold of one hamd and aanoither anotiher? Ai Two could do as well as a dozten. ' Q. I had supposed there could be a isufficiemit niumlber. of eitialwart men to reduce any man to submisision who had no weapon in his hand? A. Two could do it, but in a scuflBle a main might go down; sometimes he wouldn't go down; very frequently he would go .down; it wasn't strange; during six: yeans he might go down ten times. Q. How miany tinues did yon knock a raaa down who had no weapon in his hand' in this place where paddling was adminis- tered? A. I diom't recall snch a oincunnstance. . Q. How many 'times did you knock a mian after he wafe down? A. I don't reciaiU any snoh 'carcunaystamce. Q. How many times did you see 'anyone knock a man lafter he was down? A. I don't reciail any ciromnstaince of ^ithat kind. Q. It is in evidence heire that ^frequently in the excitfionent of the moment isootne one in that iroomi has struck a prisoner perhaps several tiilmeis' aflteii 'hie wajsl dowin? A,' That might pcissibiy be if a scuffle wais going on, if they were*both down it might be- blows were interchanged. Q. Having the matter called to your attention several times^ is your recollection refreshed so you are able to state that a prisoner might have been stiruok after he was down, or that you necall that he was struck after he was down ? A. I don't recall such a circumstance, but if a prisoner was resisting after he was down he might have been struck after he was down. Q. With reference to the kn<|-cking of a prisoner with a closed lisc by the superihtendent, resulting in an. abrasion of his hand and the bleeding of it, with what forec was that blow dealt ? A. That would be difficult for me to determine: it wasn't forcible enough to knock a man down. Q. But it was with considerable force, n.evertheless ? A. Oh, yes. Q. Did it loosen any teeth ? A. Not that I know of. 342 Q. Did you examine ? A. No, sir; but I think the statement woiild have been made by the inmate had it been done; I never heaa'd a word of complaint of that tind. Q. J am requested to ask if the prisoner was manacle^ at the lirne the blow was struck in his face ? A. He was no'^. Q. It was his flrsU entrance into the room ? A. I wouldn't say as to that. Q. Soon after ? A. Probably soon after. Q. "i oil have had oonsiderable experience in personal struggles, it seems, and it may be proper, if there is any objection, to it I, jierhaps, will not press the question;, for th.e witness to stalte whether, in his opinion, the blow was dealt with suflftcient force to loosen a tooth ? A. I reaUy couldn't tell as to that. Q. You can't tell one way or the other ? A. No, sir. By Judge GrUbert: Q. Did you say you have ever heard of inistan.oes where the inmates have claimed their teeth have been loosened or knocked out by these blows ? A. I don't remembei* of such an instance. Q. That is all you can say; you don't remember ? A. Yes, sir. (j. Upon these occasions when the prisoner received a paddling was he- cAer chained to anything ? A. Yes, sir; he was handcuffed. Q. And chained to what ? A. He was handcuffed and a snap snapped in the handcuff and that attached to a rope running over a little pulley, so it would secmie him in that way. Q. Was he' iu that manner strung up, as it was termed; held uj) ? A. He was; in every instance that I recall he could stand squaiely on his feet. Q. Was he, when in that manner held up or strung up, I wiU put it held up ? A. The rope was passed over the pulley and made fast to something below, so it would hold him there. Q. Do you mean to :say that never, upon any occasion, was he ri'ised so that but what his feet, or that he could stand squaiely on . the floor ? A. I have noticed in Mr. Brockway's evidence he has stated that, but I have never seen it to my recollection. Q. Can you give the names of any of these persons who were fttruc]: in the face ? A. I can not; I don't recall; I remember the fact: regajTding the name, I can't remember the name. Q. Can you give the names of any of those that were thrown upon the floor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Name some of those ? A. There was a man by the name of CImiies Bart; he was the man that I stated had the sharpened &I)ike; he was a man of unusual muscular development; in faict, to such a degree tha4; the siui>erlntendent used to show his arm to 343 visitors as they passed through; he had the fln^t muscular devel- opmenl of aiay man I ever saw; he backed up In the corner with tli^t ispike. Q. Was that' what I aisiked you, muscular developmeiit; I asked you for the name; can you name any other person that was thrown down 01' that you were compelled to subdue after being taken into tl).e bath-room ? A. Yes; a man by the name of KeUy; this occuiu'ed in the school-room, who resisted and iittempted to. strike me with a chair. Q. i refer to those in, the bath-room, whether you can mention any olhe'rs there ? A. Bai^ I recall very well. Q. 1 want you to state, as near as you can, thin names of those that were struck over the head or across the face ? A. Eeally, I couldn't give you a single name of those; I remember the circum- stances, but I couldn't give you the name. Q. In the first place how are these inmates taken to the bath- room ; are they not conducted there by some of the officers ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How is it that they are conducted there when they were aimed ? A. For instance, if a mail, commits' an assault on I another prisoner in the shop We don't deem it prudeat, or didn't at that time, to imdertake to search that man in the presence of Ihe other prisoners, and tlius get in What the boysi might call a scrap with him in the presehoe of the whole gang, liable to create aii irasurrectioD, and! the rule used tp be to require that prisoner imder such circumstances to fold his arms and march ahead of the officer, and he would be taken to No. 4, and there he would be seiarched. Q. Is the officer usually armed ? A. The offloer is armed. Q. In what manner ? A. I was armed with a revolver, {ienei'ally. Q. You captured the prdisotaer or took him in chai^ge at the poin,t where the rule was claimed to be violated ? A. Yes, sir. Q. There he was directed to fold up his arms and advance in front of the officer to the bath-room door ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why couldn't you, in the same manne^, march him to the side of the bath-i-oom; aifter you had marched him into the baifch-room why couldn't you, in the same manner, march him to the further side, or window ? A. You could do that all right; there has been, circumstances where, before they would get there, they woiuld tutn on you. : Q. When they turned on you was there any occasion for your uKing your cane or anything of that kind without drawing or showihg him your weapon ? A. I don't recollect of but one insitance where I ever drew my revolver on any prisonei- — two occasions. ' 344 Q. You think there was generally any occasion or nelcessity for your either throwing a prisoner upon the. floor or knocking him down, if you had shown tbue prisoner that you were armed and prepared ito even kill him if he didn't obey ?, A. Yes, sir; I have had a prisoner go for me with a knife when the revolver was cocked and held right on him. , Q. Was that one of the occasions you threw him down ? A. That M'ajs one of the occasions when I knocked him^ down. By MFj litchflddl: Q. Was tihartl in itlhe batih-TOom? A. He wias conflnied in the cell; in tlhe soMltiairy. By Judge Gilblert: Q. I laan speaking of ithose iinisttances wheirB you are taking the prisoner to the bath-room; matched him there toi be disciplinjed for the vioiartion of somje rule; have you ever, upon any occasion had the prisoner tium upan you tihene when you had drawn upon him your revolver? A. I never drew my revolver upon him therie? Q. You only drew yooir oane or flist upon him there? A. That is all; I want to say in justification to myself there that the only time anything of tihait kind would occur wheipe you Ts^oiuld niped to use physical force to seize h i m it would be in' a momient when you began to search that man hie would undertake to assault yoiu as quick as a flash; you can't di'aw your revolver; you have got to close with a man; you hiaive got tio< dlisairm him; you can't stiand back to Tii!m and say to him : " Why, if you don't do so an.d so, I wiU bore you full of holes;" yon can't say any words yon hjave to simply act. Mr. Ciiaig. — It would; eeemi (to me the wittnesia showed a great deal of discretion in not dinawing a nevolveir whetne it isn't absolutely necessary to kill a man-, because if an officer was in the hJaMt of drawing revolverisi betare he would know it he would use it. Judge Gilbert. — -What sibniek me wasi whefbher he couldn't mairch him. to the side of Hhe room in the same miamner in which he marched h\m to the bafth-rooni? The witness. — We always' did that, marched him to the side of the room in the same manner unlesisi he stbppall on the way and tumled on yon. Q. I am requested to ask you this question: Was the man who appeared to be faanrtSmig in the bath-troom^ was hiet, in your judg- ment, feigning? A. He was. By Mr. Onaag: Q. You were pirfesen/tl dturing the whole of tlhle punishniienit of this mian who eithler fainted on feigned! fainting? A. Yes, sir. 845 Q. Did tihe asisiiisltlaiiit in thie hlospitaJ comie imtloi t!hie room durSing thlat time? A. No, isd!r; tOie mlani was on his feiet amd pnoblably iniside of a mintutie oir twoi Q. Tluarf; idetnitMes this man as a man othieiP thlam the one thiait one witiDesis bene to^'day hjasi given eTidfence of? Mr. StaoQicihiaeld. — Do you! nefer toi the omie Mr, Brookwiaiy sjfoke of. Mr. Onaig. — Noi; a wirtmess hierie to-day, wh.o wlais aisBiistaiit in the Wspitai, whio said h.© wasi sent fotr amd bent over 'the man, on the ground and lifted hila eyelM./ The wirtnesa — I think ikajti mighifc 'have oocuirred while I was awiay. By Judge Gilbett: Q. How many blows/ hiad thals man iBeioeived before he fainted or pnetended' to faint? A. I ooTildn't sa;y as. toi the njumben. Q. Haven't you a recoUecrtiom aibout it? A The latrge^t number of 'Mowis any man evetr iPeceived. — Q. (Interrupting,) How many did thisi man receive befoire he fainted or pretended to faint? A. It ilsi my impassion .this man pretended to faint very soon. Q. AbOiut h.ow many blows accordinig to your best recoliectLoin hiad he received, or had hje j^eceived any? A. He had rieceived some; I would say three on fouip. I Q. Had he, befoirie be fainted or pretended to faint, begged in any way of Mr. 'Brockway toi istop? A. As to that T couldn't ,, remember. Q. Qan yon recollect amything that the man saiid or done before be fainted or pretended to faint? A. No; I do not recollect- any- thing unusual in bis. demieanoir. Q. Do you recall anyrtlhinig unJUBUial in th,e appearance of the man, wbetber be was pale or anything of tb^t kind? A. No', sir; the m'Oist of them wben taken down get a little white; get a little frightened. i Q. Wbat 'are tbe weapons ithat you claim to bave taken away from various prisoners wben tbey assaulted you? A. I bad a couple drawers full of knives I took from those fellows; I have taken all manner of weapons from tbem. Q. I mean from tbose that actually turned upon you? A. I have taken knives and taken piece® of slugs of iron, made into eiing-sbots, etc By Mi*. Oralg: Q. Do you know Father Bloomer? A. Yes, sir. Q. Know him quite well? A. Yes, sir. *4, 346 Q. Did you, some yeans ago, in tihe siunmer seaeon, meet Father Bloomer neair a park in the city of Elmdra, you beinig in the buggy with your wife and lather Bloomer being afooit? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did Father Bloomer call your attention to the conditioii and circumstances of an inmate in the reformatory? A. I have a faint recollection of Farther Bloomer speakinig tlo me riegarding an inmate that had reported to him of his punishments. Q. Did you examine tiat inmate afterward? A. At that time there was no punMiinent inflicted that I wa&n't present 'ait. Q. Did you, at t!he time of the oonversation, reoall th.e case to your own mind? A. I must hare recalled it. * Q. Do you know the extent of the punishment which had been inflicted on this iimiate? A. I didn't even remember th.e man's name, but I remember Father Bloomer spoke to me about the punishment inflicted on a prisoner and he istated, I believe, that the prisoner had told him in confessioio, that he was really unable to perfomn has task, thait it was impossible for him to do it, 'and he asked me if I would intercede in his behjalf ; it was my recol- lection now that I did say something to' the superlntendenrt about it, although that is faint; Father Blooimer afterwards, I remem- ' ber, asked regarding this sajne man, and I told him the super- intendent had changed his labor and he was dicing very nicely. Q. You say you don't remernber the name of the man? A. I don't remember the name; I remember the case. Q. Do you recall the boy or man by any characteristics? A. I do not; I haven't any idea. Q. You remember the case? A. I remember Father Bloomer speaking to me regarding some instance. Q. You remember afterward you did have another interview \\ ith Father Bloomer in which you s't'ated to: him something; what did you state? A. I stated to him) that this prisoner was get- ting along very nicely, and I believe now that the superintendent had changed his position; changed his occupation. Q. What you stated to Father Bloomer technically or strictly is not evidence here; does it refresh, your recollection sO' you are able to state that at that time you knew he had been changed to another industrv'? A. I can't remember to what he was changed. \ Q. Do you now recall he had been changed? A. I wouldn't swear as to that, but it is, my belief that he was chahged. Q. Your best recollection or impression, ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And having been changed, he did Ms work without any diiiiculty ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. I want to ask you if yO'U knew the extent to which that man had been punished for not doing his work in, his former occupa- tion ? A. I am not positive it was entij-ely because of his work. 34T Q, Do you know tie extent to which he had been punished ? A. I know he was paddled, undoubtedly. Q. Do you luiow how severely ? A. I don.'t know how severely, no. Q. I>o you know wh,ether it was severely loir not ? A. I know cverj' paddling is severe. Q. Do you know whethw it left maiics on his batck ? A. Tlndoubtedly it did. - - •Q. Do you know for what length of time those marks remained ? A. ^o; I couldn't isay as to that. i By Mr. Litchfield: Q._ Was he paddled ^ more than two days in, sUooeseion; ? A. I don't know that this man was; in fact, I don't know the mau.; if I remeohbered the man's name I might remember the circumstances TQore clearly. ' \ Q. Is it customary to palddle a man who has refused to perform his ta* ? A. The superintendent is the judge in regard to that; soijielimes he would paddle him for non-performancie of- task; sometimes Jfor one thing and sometimes another. Q. The superintenident always '? A. Always. C). Do you know of other instances where men are paddled sev- eral dajB in succesision ? A. I recall two or three itstaaices where a man was paddled tiwo days in succession; two of these occur- rence^; they were two very bad men; they got up a mutiny; tkese are the only cases I ever knew him to paddle a man. ais high as t\\e]ve blows; he gave twelve blows g,piece, and they were not subdued, and he ordered me to place them in a cell, and the next morning he brought them out again aud he renewed that applica- tion, and I think they got eight the next morning, and they gave in. i Q. Paddling a man the second time on the bare sikin, are not the wounds much more serious ? A. It had the appearance on the epidermis; it would make a greater -bruisie; the blood didn't come; T have never seen the blood come; it woiild break the epidermis up so it would roll up and leave the skin, blackened; it M'ould turn sort of red. Q. Do you remember any instance where a mau was paddled far dilHculties in connection, with his lessons ? A. Men have been paddled for continued lo^ of marks, and the missing of les- sons would contribute toward that, undoubtedly;, a man who would miss in school would haA^e a certain number of marks against him; I dou"r know whether^ pure and simple, for the losS' of marks, such an instance h^is occurred or not; I don't remember. 348 :\rr. StancMeldi.— Wouldn't M TaiO better to allow hitni to explain upon the record; jou ask, wlietheir a man has ever been paddled two days in' succession or not, with a good deal of em])liasis attached to that, and it does not appear on the record, tKat was lor threatened mutiny. .Mr. LiLchfleld. — I asked the witness a question I had a right to ask, and it is for the head of the "committee, to determine; I askcxl him if he knew of any occa(Hion where he knew a man had beea })addled two days in succesision. il r. istancliiield. — Should not we have the right to have upon the I'ecord the occasion of it ? Mr. Litchfield. — You have the occasion; the witness stated he knew of such a case, and he knew the reason why. Mr. Slanchfleld. — I didn't heaj" that. By Mr. CSraigl: ■ ' Q. I understand while you do not recall tihe name of the man, or personal oharaoteristics of the man referred to by Father Bloomer, you do recail the case and identify it as the case that Father Bloomer — A. Yes. Q. You do recall the fact that very man was paddled? A. I don't remember the man, but undoubtedly he was. Q. Have you amy impression or recoileotion about it, that he was paddled? A. He, having spoken to me regarding it, if he hadn't been paddled, I would have been able to say so: at the time. Q. Can you state, whether or noi^ the man' was paddled above his buttock; Farther Bloomer has stated the marks were from his shoulders dOT\'n to his hips? A. I neven saw anything of that kind; it might have occurred when I wasn't by. Q. You are not able to say positiVely one way or the other in this particular case? A. No, sir; I have never seen blows struck as high as the shoulders or up high on the bock; I have seen blows struck as high as I state. Q. But you are able to state to the best of your recollection that this man being padidled was afterward chamged' ia his occu- pation, and got along all right, and was free from paddling? A. That I couldn't say ; I can't say how long he got along. Q. You do recall that you did state to Father Bloomer that having been changed in his occupation he was getting along all right? A. Yes. Q. If he was getting along ail right he wouldn't be paddled? A. No; you ^an'ttell how loMg he did get along all right. Philip B. Jennings, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. Three hundred and seventy-thiree Thurston street, in this city. ^ 349 Q. What is your age? A. Tweittty-two. Q. Were yoiu ever in any way connected with, the Elmira refoinn- atory? A. Yes, sir. /'" Q. When? A. From the la'tter part of March until June, I should say, 1893 ; I was guard on the wall and center gatekeeper. Q. What, if anything, do you know with reference to inmates of prison being taken to the bath-room, do you know they were talien there? A. I never saw anyone faken directly there. Q. Have you seen them returning firom there? A. I ha\'e seen them thaib they have said they were retluming from there. Q. Did you see them on their way from' there? A. Yes, sir. Q. What, if anything, did you notice with reference to their faces ? A. I have seen their faces colored. Q. What, if anything, did, you see with reference to their faces being black and blue? A. I have seen their faces black and blue. Q. Whereabouts upon their faces did you see such marks? A. . Under the eyes and on the cheek. Q; What with reference to their eyes; what did you notice about those? A. I have seen them blackened. Q. Their eyes with reference to being swollen? A. I haven't seen any swollen. Q. Are you acquainted with an officer by the name of Luke- Halpin? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. What have you seen with reference to hiai striking or kick- ing inmates? A. I seen him sMke an inmate, on the guard-room floor one night. i, Q. With (w^h^t^ A. Fist. Q. With what force?. A. Sufficient to stagger the inmate. Q. Whereabouts did he strike him? A. On the cheek. Q. Did you see any mark upon the convict's face aftei-wards? A. No, sir. I Q. Did you look to see whether there was any ? A. No, sir. Q. l>id you repoirt that fact to anyone ? A. No, su". Q. Was it part of your duty to do so ? A. No, sir. (i. In what capacity' was this Halpin, serving; what was his position ? A. Lieutenant-colonel he' was at that tiime. Q. (Jan YOU state any other particular > with reference to the manner or the extent, the mannei* in which inmates were pun- ished of the extent of punishment ? A. No, sir. (J. About how many, while you were here, did you see witth tlieir fa,ces bladcened in the manner that I have described ? A. T should say three or four. Q. Did you, at any itme, see any of the inmates taken from the direction (>^' the bath-room to the hospital while you were here ? A. No, sir. .360 Q. Did you see the backs of any of the inmates wihjo claimed to ha^ o Iveen to the bath-room ? A. No, sir. Q. So yon know nothing further Avlth reference tO' the pimiish- ments ^hich were received tham what youliaTe stated ? A. No, sir. Q. What, if anything, do yon know with referenice to Mr. Brock- wav using profane language; ever hear him use any profane lanr guage upon any occasion: ? A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom ? A. To met Q. "VMiat ^\•as the language he used ? A. He called me a damn (log. Q. (ifr. Craig. ! Did he use " damn, " in connection with the name of God or Clirfet or the Holy Spirit ? A. No, sir. ' Q. pimply said damn ? A- Yes, sir. Q Ever hear his use harsh or pix)fane language to anyone else' or ujjon an\- other occasion ? A. I don't remember of amy. - ]\rr. Craig. — I noticed in a i"eport of evidence with reference to the V. ord " danm '" on a previous hearing that I am. reported as i^iiyhig that tlie word " damn '' is in violation of the Ca-iminal Code. I said precisely the opposite; at the same time I don^t wigih to be undeistood as intimating that I consider it proper for a mam to call anotlier mam a damn dog, but it isn't, as I was reported' by mistake, an.y ^iolation of the Criminal Code. (}. Yon n]ay give the whole semtemce or language of Mr. Brock- \\ ay in that coi.nection ? A. " Get omt, yoii damn dog, or I will feick you out.' Q. Do yon kuo^- of your own knowledge whether the bruise® on the face of ihe inmate you referred to were received in the bath- room ? .\. No, sir. By Mr. Craig: (,). [)o yon know any witness^ ^ho can show whether those marks weie received in the bath-room ? A. The oflQcei' who took them in l]iuld pleaise sign my cl|ileck. Q. Do you meam in thibi udom? A. In the businieiss office. Q. In the noom adjoinamg thiia room? A. The bufiinesisi office. Q. Anybody pipesent besi'des you and Mr. Brockway? A. No, sir. Q. Haye you told us all that occunred' lupoax that oooasion? A. I came after my pay, aand! I askedl him.' if would sign it; I had been infoirpied my check was all made out; I wentl tO' Mr. Brockwiay and asked himi if he ,woiuid signi it, atnd he said I didn't have amy thing coming; I told h!im I thought I had; because I had worked hard enough for it, amd he said he wouldn't sign it; I told him^my family was very much in need' ocf thfe money; he started to go upstairs, and I called to him again and asked him if he would sign it; he said, "Noi; get out^ vou damn dog, or I will kick you out." Q. Have yoiu stated all you said om that occasion? A. As near a.s I can remember. Q. You say you saw the Lieutenainit-Ooionel Haipim strike a prisoner with his closed fist? A. Yes, sir. Q. And it staggered him? A. Yes, sir. Q. You have told us where it was? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you tell us when it was? A. It. was in the evening sometime. Q. What month? A. I couido^t slay. Q. What corridor? A. On the guard^room floor', Q. Anyone else present? A. The lieutenant-colonel was talk- ing to someone, but I don't recollect who it was. Q. Anyone else? A. That is all I can remember of. Q. What was the prisoner doing when the lieutenant-colonel struck him? A. Speaking to him. Q. Do you know -what he said? A. I do not. Q. Was he doing anything besides talking? A. Not that I could see. Q. Was he making any gesiture, threatening or othewise? A. ' Not that I know of. 3S3 Q. How near were you? A. Possibly thirty feet^ Q. Did you see plainly both personis? A. Yes, eir. Q. How long bad you been looking a,t tbem before yota saw tbe lieutenant-colonel strike the prisoner? A. Juist turned around. Q. You didn't see what occurred much before that? A. No, sir.. Q. What followed that? A. The young mam went off, stood for sometime, and I went away; I was called' away then. Q. The young man went off without beirig followed by the colonel? A. Yes, sir. Q. Went off alone? A. Yes, sdir. • Q. I believe you said you didn't remember* the name of that young man? A. I did not. By Mr. LitchMeld: Q. Were you near enough to hear what the younig man «9iaid to the oolonei? A. No, sir. Q. You dom't know whether htf used insiulting kunguage? A. No, sir. By Mr. Oraig: Q. How did you oonie to leave the employment of the reforma- toi-y? A. My wife and ohUd was sick, and I -wanted to go home one night, and I went, and when I came back I was informed my sa-rices were no longer required. Q. Did you request permission before you went? A. I tried to get off. Q. And were refused? A. I was informed I could go if I could find anybody to answer my call. Q. Were youi^ wife and child dangerously sick? A. They were quite ill. Q. Was it neoessiary for you to find someone to answer your call? A. Yes, sir. Q. What danger would there be if you went away without finding someone to answer your oaJl? A. I couldn't say. Q. What was your duty at that particular time? A. It was my night off, but in ordeir to go away you have to find someone to answer yotur call. Q. Did youiild you ddStinguMi or staite what they said? A. I could not Q. Cbuld you heiair amythiing efee? A. I could not. Q. When tihey came out what was thieir appeananice? A. I didn't notice anything in particular, only they came ou* with their pants down, hanging dbwn ailwut tlheir legisi, Tjeinig run out of the bath-room by a hlaE Keeper leadiag thiem by the amni; I hare noticed them when I was out ta tha yaind' coming out, posmbly, two or three; witlh their eyes blaick amdl side of th.e fajce. Q. What did you notice with refepenice tlo the side of the face? A. Nothing only it being black, Kke a black eye. Q. Black and blue? A. Yesi, sir; black and iblue. Q. Can you give the namieS of those pensolnisi? A. I could nlot; no men that I ever had any dealiiigs with. Q. How many did you see with their eyes blackened or biriuilsles upon the siilde of their faces? A. PosisiHy tiwOi or three. Q. You say possibly two or three? A. Nolt any miore thajn thia*; I will siaor three. Q. Whiait can you say witii reference to' a young laid; small fellow; who formerly was in the reform istehool i!tt Eodhestler? A. On a certain day; 1 dbn'it remember whlemi it wajsi eccaotily; I think about dress para'dle time, the boy hid out; triied to* escape; something like that; I am pretty certain; I won't say sure wherthJar it was that day or tlhe next day, I was to the gn:rafl1d-TOom floor when he was in the biarth-roOra, and I heard his screams way to the guiard'-room floor from thie'baithl-wwm. Q. Oould you understand anything thait was said? A. No; I could not Q. Oan you describe Wis screams? A. Like a mam hieillotiig, yell- ing, that wais being hurt. Q. Did you heiar anything else beside the screamsi? A. I could not Q. Did you see the boy whien he caiuue' out? A. I did not. Q. Did you see him afterwards? A. I did not. Q. What have you seen, if anything, with reference to Mr. r,roi'!o\'ay striking the inmates ? A. I never saw Mr. Brockway strike an inmate. ' Q. Did you ever see any of the keepers or oflicers strike inmates? A. T have. Q. Which of them, and where, and who did he strike ? A. I saw Halpin, who was formerly the principal Iceepier here, strike 367 an iumatc in the yard by No. 1 shop, because ke woxildn^t keep step in line, istTike liim in the faioe and linook hiin up against the brick wall, one night after drees parade. Q. Did you isee the man afterwards ? A. I saw him at the i:iiue, and isa\v bim. when he went in; I didn't see him the next day; he stood probably as far as from here to that waU when he atruclc him and knocked him clear up into, the brick wall. Q. A heavy blow ? A. A heavy blow. Q. WTiat did the boy do, if anything, by way of crying or heUo^ ing ? A. The boy cried. Q. Wlutt, if an^yiiung, did the boy say ? A. I didn't hear him say a \\ord, and I stood right close b^ him. Q. What diid Mr. Halpin say to him before h.e sitrack him ? A. He said, " God damn you, wliy don^t you keep step ?" Q. Was it frequently the case that the same language wasi usied towards tlie inmates ? A. I have heard him use it in seveiral instances. Q What was the language that he uisually used toward the inmiaiteis wlnen he was uisiajig pnofaine language? A, "Godi damn you.'' Mr. Babcock. — Let me submit, is that admissible as against the managers or superintendent ? Mr. Grai?. — I believe we announced at the openiitg, and it is true, that the ultimate points of this ihTestigation are the general administration and general condition of the , reformatory, and any cases are matenial or relevant simply because tbey show that. We are not investigating Mr. Brockway alone, we are investigat- ing -the whole administration and any principal officer like a first keeper, principal keeper, and lieutenant-colonel, one and the same man, I think it is very imporbant to know what he does here and what he did do at th.e time. Mr. Babcock. — I referred more particularly to HbM alleged profanity. Mr. draig. — That, of course, is very bad 'and relates ta a princi- pal officer; it is a violation settting aside or pitting out of con- sideration the moral law; it is a violation of the statutory law of the State, and of the common law, by a principal officer who is set by the State to train, men to obey the laws. Mr. Eabcocl:. — Although the profanity is not brought to the attention of the managens or superintendent ? Mr. Craig. — -That is a conslideration, but we have to go step by step; it iseems to me that profanity in an institution, of this kind i9 a very griteivous offense; it is a violation of the law of the State by officers who are set up by the State to train men to obey the law. 368 Mr. Babcock. — When, it is not birouglit to ihe attention of tlie supemntendent? Ml". Craij.'. — It might be argued the superinteiadent should inform himself and not have sudh a mam there; if it was not brought to the attfmtion of the superinteiadent it is a very different matter from what it would be if it had been brought to him. Q. How frequently or upom whart; ocoasimiHi did you heairi Mr. Halpin use profane language; state the occasions, the particulars, and give the language as neaj* as ypu, can ? A. I heajrd Mm, one night aftei- school, a man on the guard-room floor; he done some- thing; some officei' brought him up there; Halpin 'accused him of lying; he »ays, '"You God damn thief, I ought to slap you in the U'Outh,'" and at tht- same time he did slap him in the mouth. Mr. Oraig. — Was this man whom hei slapped, and to whom he addressed the profane language, an inmate? A. He was an inmate, red-suit man. Q. Do you recollect his name? A. I do not. Q. His number? A. No; I do not Q. Oan you give any particulars by which the man can be identified? A. I don't know as I could; I think hisi offense was masturbation in his oeU; some officer brought him up for that; that was tlie offense he was brought up for. Q. Can you specify any other occasion when Mr. HJaJpin used profane language? A. I can remember of a number of times, but I don't know as I cam recall the oooasionisl now whien they were; I heard him in the yard. Q. What did you hear him say in the yard? A. Something to the same effect; calling them " God damn thieves," or something like tha*. i Q. Can you state about the number of times while you were in the reformatory that you heard him use profane language? A. I would say six times. Q. During those six times language of the same character that you stated? A. It was. Q. Have you stated now about all that you can say upon that subject, so far* as Keeper Halpin is concerned? A. I have. Q. Did you hear any other keepen or officer use profane lan- guage? A. I have heard Colonel Bryan. Q. What was the language you heard him use? A. I have heard him in investigaiting reports at the center gate say: "You God damn fool, stand up there, attention, God damn you, you exasperate me; " I 'have heard him use that oni probably twenty- five different oiccasions; I would be safe in saying. Q. Can you name the personsi, or any of them, to whom he used that language? A. I can not. 359 Q. Did you hear^ him use profane language upon other occasions than those yoiu have referred to? A. ISTothing, only the word " damn; " I have heard him use that. , Mr. Oraig. — You mean on these oither occasionis, included in the twenty-^ave? A. JSTo; other occasions besidesi those. Q. You mean in the twenty-five occasions he used more than the word "damn?" A. More than the word "damn." Q. Have you told all you can say upon that subject so far as Bryan is concerned? A'. I have. Q. Did you hear any other officers use profane language? A. I don't know as I ever, did. ' Q. What 'have you to say with reference toi Sample? A. I don't think I ever heard Mr. Sample use profane language at the men. Q. How with reference to Keeper Lazemby? A. I have heard him use it. » Q. State when, and where, and what? A. I don't know as I can state the occasioln®. ' Q. State the language? A. " Grod damn you." ' Q. To whom- was it addressed? A. The prisoners. Q. Can you recollect in what circumstances? A. I can; I haVe heard him use it when he was instructing me in the duty of a guard-room floor officer, at the head of the stiairB; men would come up the stairs and start to run across the floor, and he would say: "Here, God damn you, you have got to say something to me before you run across there." Q. Was that language used in your hearing more than once? A. On three or four different occasions. Q. Cain you state the circumsitanoes under which it was used on any other occasion? A. I can not. Q. Or to whom it was addressed? A. I can not. Q. Hear any other officer use profane lan'gua;ge? A. I did not. Q. How was it with reference to the sui)erintendent? A. I heard him use it once. Q. State the circumstancesi ? A. It was Sunday wheai' the men were laoving a boiler in the yard; he says, "Jesus OhriBt, you ought to have John Ennis out here to swear for .you." By Mr. CSralg: Q. W«ho were the men. that were present ? A. There was a patrolman by the name of Swan, and, I think, Vaji Hoffen was out there, an officer of the institution; I won't s'ay for sure. Q. Who else ? A. I don't know as I can recall. Q. What time waiS it ? A. I don't know whether in the morn- ing or in the afternoon. Q. The day of the month ? A. I couldn't tell you. 360 Q. Can you give th:e montih. ? A. I couldn't remember when it yras. Q. Can't you give it approximately ? A- In May, I should say. Q. Last May ? A. Last May. Q. Any convicts present ? A. There were jyoseibly six or eight ther-e that were moving the boiler. Q. Po you remember the name of them ? A. I do not. Q. Was there any particular person or persona to whom this languagf^ was addressed ? A. No, air. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do j'ou know of the officers chewing tobacco or smoking in the prfisence of the inmates ? A. In the quarters tobacco is used ; in the officers' quarters, when I was here, there was a bar- ber in there, one or two all the while; sometimes one and^ some- tunes two. Q. I assked particularly with reference to the use of tobacco in the presence of the inmates, either chewing or smoking ? A. They ilsed it in their quarters in, the presence of them. the baith-rooan, and what you .saw or Icnow with reference to their conditdbn on their return from there? A. I never was there in the ibath^coom; I never had a man taken there and I nevei' saw one paddled, and I never saw the paiddle. Q. When they came froim the bath-room, what, if anything, do you know in rdation to their condition? ' Mr. Babcock. — I submit that question isi not quite proper, biecause it assumes that this witness does not know. Mr. CJraig. — It is not in proper form because he saysi he never saw the-m in the bath-room, and the question assumes that hfe liUew they were there. , The witness. — I do know they wieire there; yes, sir. Q. Do you know of any of the inmat^ whoi were employed iin the tin department haATing been in the bath-room ? A. Yesi, siilr; they came there and took them out and taken to the bath-room direct and sent back to the shop to' work. Q. What can you say with reference to the appearances of some of those men with reference to their being bniised around their face or their eyes being blackened ? A. I have seen thedir eyes black when they came back; in fact, I don't know that I ever saw a man come out of the bath-room but what had an eye black. Q. How many, ia aU, can you 'SJiy you saw come from the bath- room with blackened eyes ? A. I can't say how many I ever saw; I saw quite d good many daring the time I was here; I wouldn't slate as to how many I saw, because I don't remember; it is ((uite a while ago' I wa^ here; six years ago, I guess, or five years ago. i 367 Q. You gay you never saw a paddle, the imstrumeint which, was used in the bath.-rooini ? A. I never did. Q. Did you, upon, any occasion^ speak to ihe superintnedent with, refenence to th.e'se inmates wkose faces were iMmiised ? A. I don't think I even did; no, sir. Q. Did you ever, upon any occasion, hear any of the officers use piiofane language to anyone in ithe presence of priisonerts; to prisoiK-rs or any other persons ? A. Why,- I think I have, yes; I don't know as I ever heard an officer swear at a prisoner. Q. Have you heaird them use profane language in' their presencie or hearing ? A. I don't know as I ever did; I wouldn't swear I did. I ' (J. Have you stated all that you know, or can recollect, with reference to the punishmenjt of the prisioners ? A. I know noth- ing cihout the punisihment of the prisoners; I never saw any of it, and all I know is what has been told me from hall-keeperis; I don't know nothing from my own personal observation. Q. As fai- as seeing the punishment inflicted ? A. No. Q. Can you give the names of any of these persons whose faces v/ere l>niised or eyes blackened ? A. Yes-; I guess I can, a few of them; one man^s name was Fishei', I remember of; he worked in the tin-fihop; another name wasi Head; I think his nam© was John Head. Q. Can you give the first name of the other ? A. No; I can not. Q. Cian you give his consecutive number ? A. No; it is so' long ago. Q. J")o you recoUeot the year ? A. I think it was in 1888. Q. Can you give ihe name of any other who had bruises ? A. This man, Dunn, I ispoke of a little wMe ago, I think his name was John, 1 couldn't be positive. Q. Was he a tin-shop man ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it the same year ? A. I thiuk it was. Q. (Jan you give the name of any other ? A. That was in my shop ? ' Q, Or amy otiher ? A. Yes; there was a Casper boy; there were two IbrOthers in the shop while I was in there, John Casper and George Casper. Q. Which one of those ? A. I think John was talien to the bathroom. I Q. I am not asking for those who were taken to the bath-room; I am asliing for the names of those whom — . A. (Interrupting.) I don't remember of Casper being bruised when he came back; I don't think he was. ' Q. Do you recolleot the name of, any whom you claim was bmised *? A. I don't think I remember of any others. 868 Q. How many, in aJl, do you recollect ? A. There was Head, Dnnn, a fellow by tiie name of Wilson, used on tlie double seamieir wc had there. ' Q. What was tiiere about Wilson ? A. He used to come baxjk bruised considerably. Q. How many time'is was he taken to the bath-room ? A. He used to be taken there every day for a while. Q. (Mr. Baboock.) Does he know that ? A. I didn't see him go into the bath-room; I don't claim that I did. Mr. Oraig. — By whom was he taken out? A. He was 'some- times kept in the cell in the morning that he didn't come out, or at noon. Q. Did you see him in the cell? A. Nol; he didni't come back to the shop and I reported him absent, ihast he wasni't to the shop to work, and ifr. Winnie took himi out of the shop, and aJsoi Mr. Warren. Q. Where wenie they employed? A. In the reformatory; Mr. Winnie was principal keeper. Q. By whom was the mam brought baick? A. He was sent back; he never was brought back as I remember off by any officer; they were always sent back to the shop; perhaps an officer migiht tave come to the ^op with them, but they always came in alone. By Mr. Oradg: Q. They were sent for and taken out of the shop, and after a definite tune or indefinite, which ever it may be, but not a long time, they came back? A. Yes, sir. Q. With their faces bruised or injured as you have described? A. Wilson did; yes, sir; a good many times at that. Mr. Craig. — It seems, Mr. Baboock, tihoisie are circumstances that might justify the inference they were taken toi the bath-room. The witness. — I thought so anyway. Mr. Babcock. — I ask to have that stricken out. Mr. Oraig. — -Yes, sir. By Judge Gilbert. Q. What did you observe with reference tol thiis prisoeers's eyes beinj,' blackened, or there being bruises ujxm his face upon those occasions when he ^as taken from your depair'timent by an oflBcer, and when he retui'ned to your department again? A. I don't know as I understand your question. Q. This man WUson? A. He most always came back with an eye blsioked, some times both of them; the last time that he was taken to the bath-room he didn't show up for three or four! days again to the shop. 369 Q. Wlhat was his appeai-anoe when lie did siHoW up? A. His appeairance looked to me as thoi^gh. he had been pretfy harshly treated; his face was blacfeened and swelled up and his eyes was black. , i Q. Have you given Wilsotfs first name? A. I don't tiMnk I ^ ever knew his first name. Q. Can yoiu give his conisecutiTe mimj^er? A. No. Q. This was in 1888? ' A. I think soi; yes, sir. Q. Any way he wasi a tin-shop man? A. Yes, sir; worked on the double seamer; that puts double seams on bottoms of paik and i)ans. Q. Do you know anything in reference to an inmate committing suicide while you were there? A. I do. ' Q. What was Ms name? A. Gresberger. Q. What was his first name? A. I don't know. Q. Gan you give his| conseoutiye number? A. Ko, sir. Q. Can you give the date or time when he committed suicide? A. No; I can't, ' Q. Give the year? A. It was either in' 1887 or 1888, and I don't know -vdiich; ■ I came here June 27, 1887, and left here August 29, 1888 ; so I can^'t tell exactly which year thisi was in. Mr. Craig. — Can't you give the season of the year? A. I think it was in summer some time. Q. I>o you know in what department this inmate was employed? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. What? A. In the chair factory. No. 1 shop. Q. Do you know of his being taken to the bath-room? A. No; I don't know of his being taken there. Q. Or his being punished there? A. Nothing, only what I heaird; I never saw him; I don't know of my own observation; I know he committed suicide, hung himself. , Q. I will ask Mr. Hoppe if he will produce the conduct record of Mr. Geaberga", and also the original memoranda, or entries or documents, whatever you may have, relating to the discipline of that prisoner? ' ' Mr. Hoppe.^Yes, sir. ; 'Q. Do you know whether Mr. Wilson was taken tlo the baith- room the time he was absent three on four days? A. No, sir, Q. Do you know of any one injured of your own knowledge that was taken to the bath-room? A. I would have to gOon and swear that I saw it.; I neVer siaw it. Q. Aa I undenstiamd it you never saw any one tiaketn in the bath- room? A. I never did. Q. Nor isaw th'em punished when in? A. I neveir dM. 47 370 Q. Witlh. refemeinice to itMsl miam, Wiisioin, oml tte ooeasdon wlieiii you say ke -was aibsenit two oip tiiree dlays? A. It might heuve been that loBg. Q. waien lie caane baick witth Ms fajce in tih,© oomiditioii whicih. yoiu hiaye described, who took him awiay from thie tin-eibop? A. I thMk that on that occasion Mr. Winme did; the prkicipial keeper; Mr. Winne took hiin out of the eihop twice while I wals theire and once he piuncheid him in tlie face all the way oiutt of the shop. Mr. Babck. — That isn't responsive, and I. ask to strike tihJat out. Judge Gilbert.— Strike that out. Q. You oam't say positively whether Mr. Winnie took Mr. Wilson out of the shiop upon the occasion when he wais aibsient two. or three days or not? A. I shloiuld 'hate to swear poisdlti>vei toi tlhisi; but I think so; I think that he did. Q. (Mr. Onaig.) What do you meam by think; thlat itei your best recollection? A. Yes; it is my best recollection; it^is qiuiitte a while ago. Q. Did you hear Mr. Winnie say anything to Wilson upon that occasion? A. I don't think I did, because he worked away down close by the door, Wilson did, and my stand was perhaps fifty feet from' Wilson. Q. ^Tiat time in) the day was it he took him out of the shop? A. I think in the forenoon. Q. About what time in the forenoon? A. I can't tell. Q. While you were employed in the refonmatory did you see any of the officers strike inmates? A. Yes, sir. Q. What officers? A. I have seen Mr. Winnie; Mr. Wan-en and another offloer had a fight with a prisoner one morning; I forget his name. , Q. State the circumstances or instances when you saw Mr. Winnie strike? A. I just stated that a moment aigOi; he struck this Wilsoli. Q. State the facts'? A. He came in and took him out of the shop; he grabbed him first and throwed him down on the floor, and when he got up he kept hitting him, and there was kind of a picket fence along whet-e he took him, and we had tinware piled in there; he didn't seem toi strike him very hard, but every time he did strike him in the face his head went back against the picket fence there; that was in the old tin^shop. Q. What did Wilson dh fii"st? A. I believe he was reported for not doing his task. Q. 'V\Tiat, if anything, did Wilson do before Winnie sitiruck him? A. I believe he didn't go out readily with Winnie as he wanted him to; he stopped and wanted to ai-gue the case a little; he didn't show no flg'ht at all. 371 Q. Was this tlie first or secoiQd time thiat Wilson had been taken from the shop by an officer? A. I think it was the second time; Mr. Wajren took Mm out once and Mr. Winnie tiwice. Q. Wheni Wairen took him out upon that oiccasioni and Wilson returned what was the condition oi| his face? A. I don't know as I can sitate o!n these different ofecasionisi when different men took 'him omt, but as I stated before he ijaoSt generally came baxik with his face discolored; his eye black or aometihlhg of that sort. Q. YoTi are positive this was the second time he had been taken out of the shop that this affray occurred ? A. I can't swear to be positive about these things; I woiildn']t give it. Q. Was that the only occasion you ever saw Winnie strike an inmate ? A. Yes, sir; the first and only time. Q. Describe Winnie, as to whether he was a strong, athletic man or not ? A. He was. Q. About how tallj? A. I should say five feet nine or ten inches. .' ,, ■ •• Q. About hiow heavy ? A. He would weigh over 200 poundst i Q. Describe the size of tliis , man, Wilson ? A. Wilson, was a man, I should think, that would weigh perhaps 160 poundsi; some- where alomig there; 155 or 160. Q. About how tall ? A. Probably five feet six or seven, but I should think about five feet six; I know he isn't as tall a nxan as I am, and I am only about five feet seven or seven, and a half- Q. I will call your attention to the other officer; istate the cir- cumstances under which you saw this other officer that you have mentioned sti^ke an inmate ? A. I saw Warren strike the same man, WiteMi. Q. What Avas ^the occasion of that; what caused it? A. I don't remember; as T remember it it was for something Wilson had done and WaiTen called him up onto the stand or on tlie step and Wanren stood on the stand with him, and Wilson said some- thing to him and Warren hauled off and hit him and knocked' him off the step. Q. Where did he strike him ? , A. On the face somewhere; fore- head, I believe. Q. What with ? A. His fist. Q. Then what was done ? A. Told him to get up and go back to his machine and go to work, and he diji. Q. What was the language that this man used to the keeper ? A. He was talking to him, and I don't know exactly what their conversation wasL Q. How near were you to them ? , A. I was right on the stand hut there was machinery nmning in that shop and very noisy. 372 Q. Yo!u didn't hear what waa said ? A. I didn't pay much atbemtjion; I don't remember what the conversaJtiom was or any- thing about it. Q. Can you describe the blow, whether it M-as witlh force or not ? A. Enough to knock him off the step; it wouldn't take much of a blow. I Q. Did you .see him aftei-wards ? A. He worked in the isliop all day. Q. bid you notice any bniises on his face afterward? A. Is'othing to amount to anything. Q. Did you see anything ? A. I saw a mai'k on his hfead or on his forehead; cuts, looked like bruises. Q. Any diiscolora|tioii| ? A., Nothin.g, only looked i-ed, w. I remember that day. Q. The next day how anus it ? A. I don't know as I noticed,' it in particular, but I noticed is tliat day. Q. Do yon recollect any other kisitance when an officer struck an inmate ? A. Nothing, only as I told you; when they got in a fight mardhing to the bucket yard one morning. , Q. I understand that was an occasion when a prisoriier struck the officer ? A. Ye«, sir. Q. That was the only instance ? A. Yes; I was sitting out in . front of Jv'^o. 1 shop, and a lot of us rnn down there at the time. Q. What did the prisoner strike the officer; mth? A. His fist; slmick him on his nose. Q. A severe blow ? A. Pretty severe; T think he bled most all the forenoon from it. ' Q. Can you give me that prisoner's name? A. I did know his name at the time, but I can''t think of it now ; he was quite a - large fellow; pretty ugly I guess. Q. Were you dascharged? A. Yes, sir; I was. Q. For what? A. Mr. Brockway claimed I allowed Iavo prisoners to escape; I always claimed I didn't; I can gO' on and explain how it was; I should like to. Q. It is suggested you may state briefly the circumstances under which you were discharged? A. They were a ganig of perhaps ' thirty; I should say thirty or thii-ty-flve prisoners outside of the north gate, grading uji befo(re the new extension was built; they wei^e either three or four officers ; I had it in my head there were four; there waa at one time I know four; I think that morning one of them had been taken off to Mr. Bowles, and an officer by the name of Cooper' and another by the. name of Evartsi was out there and had charge of those prisoners; I didn't have charge of these men; I was oni the wall; along in the afternoon sometime, 2 or 3 o'clock I ^ould say in thte afternoon, two of them sitarted 373 and rums away; none oof these three officers who had charge of those men saw tihem running, but an officer onl the north gate shot at them seven or eight time®, I should 'say; he short) at them, quite a number of timesi; I didn^t see them at ail; I was) on the wall; I had no charge ol those men whatever, and I had no ordersi to watch them; I wasi suppoised to guard the inside of the wall, not the outside; the ofScens-' guide will show that up, if Mr. Brookway wiir produce one. ^ Q. Do you feel kindly toward thei 'Siuperintendent? A. "Why, I don't Imow but I do; I don't feel as kindly asi I might/ if he had piaid ine that $140. Mr. Babcock. — That I ask' toi have sitiricken out as not resipon- sive to ih4 questioe. Judge Grilbert. — I should think you ^ould want that to remain. We will istrike it oiut. Q. When you left do you claim .there was |140 left remaining unpaid on your wages? A. I do and I guess a little' over that. Q. And that isi still unpaid? A. Yes', sir. : Q. You and Mr. Broclcway have had some disputei or question about 4t? A. Nothing, only at the 'time I left I went in and! asked for my pay, and he said I had forfeitied my pay by allowmgi these prisomers to escape. Q. The long and short of it is you dpn't feel as kindly as you otherwise would toward Mr. Brockway? A. How would you feel in a case of this character; I worked twelve tb eighteen hours a day. Q. What kind of a fellow was Wilson, submissive, quiet op turbulent? A. It was mostly for not doing his task; and the only timie;he was taken out, ;I believe, was for striking a fellow, and that was one' 'oif these Casper brothers; Oasper said something and he knocked hSm over; I believe he was taken to the bath- room for that. Mr. Babooick. — I ask to' have that stricken out. , The witness. — He was taken out of the shop. By Mr. LkkJhfieid: Q. Was Wilson a large man? A. He weighed perhaps 160 pounds, a shorter man than' I am. Q. Was he of a quarrelsome distposition? A. No;; he wasn't; I never knew of his having quarreled with anyone; he didn't^ quarrel with the fellow he hit that morning; he hauled off and hit him. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. Do you know the cause? A. No; I don't knoiw the cause; they had some disturbance or other outside the shop; that is the 374 i only time I saw him. sitrike anybody; the Casper bnotihepsi were two small feUoiWa. ! Q. He was a spirit'ed fellow, a fellow if he was coming in that doo(r, and a man should meet him at the door and hit him in the face he would resent it? A. I should think soi Judge Gilbert. — We will introduce the record of Ma.gn,us Gk's- berger, fromi conduct lediger, beginning with conBecutivc \o. 2200, paige 2534. ' ' " Eieceiyed at the institution January 25, 1887. Promoted -to first gi"ade August 1, 1887. Eieiduced to second grade December 10, 1887. December 12, 1887, admomiBihed. In Decem'ber reported for refujsiag to obey. In January, 1888, reported ajgain for riefue- ing to obey. Admonished January 28, 1888, and notified at the end of January that unless he miade a ' 9,' a perfect record for Februairy, he would be redur"*^ to the lowest grade. He com- mitted suicide March 15, 1888." ' Q. At this time your record shows nothing in reference to the puni'sihment of 'any prisoners? Mr. Hoppe.— Yes, sir; aJwa.ye; all puniishnients are entered at this time. Judge Gilbert. — The kind of punishnieaat?; Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. , Mr. Oraig. — It appears in evidence here ,that on the face of the conduct ledger the punishment of paddling did not appear in this year. Mr. Hoppe. — They 'appear since 1882. Mr. Craig.— You said 1890. , Mr. Hoppe. — Mr. Brockway stated yesterday the number if blowis he thought commenced in 1890, 'but the fact the punis'hment took place is recorded since 1882, and the number of blows may be found on the original memorandum. Mr. Oraig. — That miay be. Judge Gilbert. — What are these? Mr. Hoppe. — The original miamoraudla. Judge Gilbert. — We will introduce the ori'ginal memoranda relating 'to his conduct for the month of January, February and March. > ^ Marked "J. M.R", Mr. Oraig. — Mr. Babcock, we would like to haive a statement of all the punishments of pad'dling and of punishments in ceU within a gi^nen period. That wiU be yalualble evidence iu itsielf, and it will also enable us to avoid other species of evidence and greatly shorten the investiigation. One of the obgeetiTe poants of the inquiry will be the frequency of punishment and 'We shall not have to oaU. so many cases that would be real3|y cnm.ulati'via proofs if we can have that staJtement 3T5 Mr. Babcock. — I thmk yoni can ihave it if you will fix the time. Mr. Oralg. — Tihe periM of tike inyesitigiatiioiii from the alitegation ig ten yeaa"^. Mr. Dabcock. — We have it already pnepasred for one year. ' Mr. Hoppe. — It took about a month, to do that. Mr. Craig. — -You did a great deal more than that; yon took.; an abstnac't from the' records. Mr. Hoppe. — That is anoitiher bi^amch; I refer to these pnnisih- menita, admo'nitions amd so on. T!hat covers all the punishments a.ppMedl dtiring tihe precedinig. yean. Mir. Qraig. — We don't want to laisfc anytiiilig impractti- cable but we do wisih to have for as m'any yeaiis as practicable; we would like a istatemeooit from thp reooj?d of the punishments, the names, dates, oonisecoitive number and numb^ of blows. Mr. Hoppa^ — Would p^ou permiit me to suggest to submit a statement in thife way; that I pelect the last thousandth man or laslt twio-tihtiusandWi man if you wish ianid,give a isttiatemient of the piinishmients they have received, their numiber and name. Mr. Oraig. — How long a period will that cover? Mr. Hoppe. — Two-thousaDidth man will cover four years. Mr. Oraig. — ^ There might be a good many earlier numbers within t!hat period that have Ween paddled. Mr. Hoppe.- — Very true. Mr. Craig.— Say 500. ' Mr. Hoppe. — Beginning with tbe inmate who entered here five yeaiPs ago. Mr. Craig. — Go back on the record five yea-rs, showing all the paddling that occurred here within five years, whether they were men that entered in the Jive yeai's or men that entered before. Mr. Hoppe.- — You give mei almost an impossible task; we have no record of punishiAents as they occur from day to day, but the moment the punishment occurs it is en.tered on this man's page. Mr. Cra/ig. — How far would you have to go back in conseicutiye numbering to cover a period of five years. ' Mr. Hoppe. — If a man flv^ years ago had been here five years I would have to g'O back teii. I think all the information you deisire you would receive when you take the accouuits of all men who hfive been reoeived at the institution during the lasit five years. . ^ Mr. Oraig. — ^ We will take that in the finst insitamce, and it may be all we wHl require. Mr. Hoppe. — ^Particular. cases afterwai-d we could look up and add. Mr. Fanning takes the original memoran,da in the Gesberger case. * 876 William S. Brown, being duly sworn, testified : Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Wbieire doi yooi reside? A. At Hajrumomidlspioint Q. "WTiat is your occupation ? A . Printer. Q. Were you eyer employerl in tbe Elmira reformatory ? A. jes, sir. Q. From what time to what time ? A. I came here in the year 1887, December tenth; I resigned in 1891; I think in June some time> Q. In what department were you employed ? A. In charge of the printing department. Q. In what capacity ? A. As foreman. Q. Do you remember an inmate by the name of Cleere ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he eiuployed in your department ? A. He wai?. Mr. Babcock. — I would like to state there is a litigatioin pending in regard to that case. Mr. Craig. — I think it is propel" to consider that. In any crim- inal case it has been the precedent of our board not to extend the inquiry, and i>erhaps it ought to be the same rale in a civil case. Judge Gilbert. — I would suggest this to the coimmittee. Sup- pose thiat Mr. Brockway's conduct, or the changes in reference to Mr. Brockway's conduct reiatedl to twiemty-flve instances, in which it was alaimcd he had violated the laAv with reference to discip- lining the prisoners, and an ajction has been commenced bj^each one of those prisonei's agaibst him, and this commission was dlii'eotiad by the Governor, or requested to investigate the matters relating to the manner in which he was conduicting this institu- tion, would the committee then be of the opinion they would not have the right to investigate those cases, for the reason civil actions were pending in relation toi them? Mr. Oraig. — Probably not; tihiis investi'giation was ordered by the State Board of Qharities in the first instance without any request from, the Governor, but received the Governor's approval aftemvards. There is thisi distinction between a civil case and a criminal case; in a criminal case the heairinig of ^any issues before this ibody, a report upon it might affect the case and do veiy seri- ous injury to the ptiBOner or to public justioe either way; the case would be thoroughly tried in a criminal court, amd the presump- tion would be the district attoraiey would doi his duty and would not discontinue the prosecution, but would prosecute it as it should be prosecuted. A civil case, of co'urslei, differs. A civil case may be discontinued bj7 the whim or under amy motive of tht plamtifE, and I tidiik it is not at all paralldl with a; criimiiinial cape 877 I tiiink the board TVOTild be jaiisitftfled in a case put by Judge Gilbert of inquiring into casiea that "wienei aiiso penidiag in a 'oivii court, and perhaps in any oas© the board would be justified ; there is no stat- ute preventing it; no startute preventing it in a criminal case, and if the Attorney-General thiniks we ought to proiceed in this 'inquiry I think, probably, the committee would be bound by his opinion. Mr. Babcock. — The venue of tim action brought by Cleere is, as I am credibly infoirmed, and as I believe, inspired by the: New York World, and I think icontributing toi the expenses of that litigation. The motilon is now pending' or will be madei toi removt the venJue of that lactiion toi thisi icounty. If now this whlole matter is gone into here it goes toi the public press aiud we draw jurors from the body of the county; as you know, evea^boidy readsi the newspapers^ and it is very well calculated to either prejudice Oleere or prejudiloe the superintlendent, and I do submit there is no occa- sion for the purpose of cumulative evidence of trying that case, and I protest againisit it. Judge Gilbert. — I do not know, Mr. Ohairman, ais I ought to argue or disicuss this matter, but really, I can not see any good reason why the casia of Cleere, so far a^ it may involve a question of proper or improper ananagement is concerned, why the facs m reference to that might as properly be introduced in this inve^ti- ' gation as the islets relatiMg to any other, becausia there may be actions commenced with reference to every case thiat has been inquired into, a civil action. It may be, however, that this tesiti- moBU' is entirely immaterJall, because I do not know yet y/hether this witness is of his own knowledge acquainted with the facts, and I would like to know that first. Mr. Babcock.-^ I believe tiheire is no oajse of, Ul-treatment of Cleere in the charges. , ' Judge Gilbert. — .That I must insii^, as I would upon your side, that so far as the prosecution is concerned, it seems to me they should be at liberty to introdu(;e all material, facts bearing upon tjhis question, and upon your side you are at liberty tO' introduce all material facts showing the charges are not well founded or any ' general charge. ! Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that Mr. Cleere was ever punished in tihe barth-room or punished by Mr. Brockw-ay? A. I couldn't say whom^ he was punished by. Q. Do you know, of yoiur own knowledge that he was punished in the bath-room? A. I couldn't swear of my own knowledge that he was; I never saw anyone punished myself. Q. Did you ever see him when he was coming from the bath- rpom? A. No, sir. 48 378 Q. Do you know, of your owb' knowledge, that he was, in fact, punished? A. Only frotoi tike officers; that is all. ' Q. "What officers? A. Eeally I cotuldn''t; tell; I don't recollect who the officere wene. Q. I don-'t think it is worth while to spend any time over that case, so far as this witness is concerned; the record we will initro duce relating tio it; do you know what Mr. Cleere's consecutive number was? A. I have forgotten what his consecutive number was. Judge G-Ubert. — The prosecution will inti'oduce in proof the original report of Mr. Cleere's case. As I understband it, Mr. Cleere is living in New York, and if a hearing is had there he can be put upon the sitanid. Q. Do you recollect an inmate by the name of Lynch? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Do you recollect what his consecutive number was? A. I think I had two men in my class by the name of Lynch, one 3411, and I have forgotten the other one later ora. Q. What do you know in reference to Mr. Lynch, 3411, being paddled by Mr. Brockway? A. He showed me where he had been struck with the paddle, as he told me himself. By Mr. Craig: Q. How long was it after he was paddled? A. T!he same day, in the afternoon. , Q. You don't know how many minutes or hours? A. No. (}. Miglrt have been some hours afterwards? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — We will strike out what he said to you. By Judge Gilbert: f Q. What time did you last see ham? A. He was in my class in the forenoon. Q. Up to whaij time? A. UntU dinner time, until the men go to their cells. Q. When did you see him afterward? A. Sometime in the' afternoon; I couldn't starte what hour it was; I should think about 2 o'clock. Q. Then at that time did you see 'hi® back? A. I did; yes, sir. Q. Now, I think you may state — , Mr. Craig. — Subject to the objecrtion as before, and I would like to hear counsel at a proper time. Q. What did you observe, and whayt did you learn with refer- ence to hia case? A. I think that was the first case that I ever saw, and at that time it was very much discolored, and almost turning blue, as near as I can remember, and it was very general aU over the back from here up tio there. 379 Mt. Oraig. — Not above the buttock? A. I thJiik not; I couldn't state as to that. ■ Q. Did you see iiis back afiter thaJt? A. No, «; nob after that once ; that is th.e only time I saw it. Q. I^id lie eaiy -where he had been? A. He said he had been- to the bath-room. Q. Did he say how he received itihe bTniis^? A. Yes, sir; he^ said they were inflicted by the superintendent!, and wanted me not to report him in the future; I told ham I would have to report him if he disobeyed the rules. Q. Had you reported him. before? A. Yeei, sdr. Q. Was it in oomsequenoe of the report that you had given that he wa)s punished? Ml'. Babcoick. — The records will show that. , ' Q. la that all you can say in reference to that case? A. Yes, sir; I think that is all. , ' Q.' Do you remember an inmate by the name of Markle, No. 2;.^89 ? A. Yes, sir; I don't remember his number, because he was not in my depaitment. ^ Q. What department was he in? A. I don't know what depai^t- ' meut he was in at that time. Q. In the bindery department? A. He wasi at the time; yes, sir. Q. Do you remember about what time ? A. I do not; I think it was,, the year of 1888 or 1889; I couldn't say which. Q. Can you tell about what time of year ? A. I think it was in the fall. Q. What did you know with reference to his having a black eye ? A. He simply had a black eye, from hiis forehead down over his cheek here (indicating) ; his whole eye seemed to be par- tially closed. , Q. (Mr. Oraig.) You pointed from the middle of the forehead to the middle of the cheek ? A. Yes, sir; right oVer the eye. Q. What do you know witli reference to how he receilved the injury ? A. I don't know, only they said he was paddled and was struck by looking around. Q. How long was it before that that you saw him and he had ^no bruise upon him ? A. I couldn't siay that; I don^t knoWi. Q. Nor how long after he received the bruise, that you saw htm? A. No; I couldn't say thatj only I saw the bruise. , Q. Do you know that he had been in the bath-room ? A. I couldn't swear where^^he had been. Q. Where did you first see him with the bruise ? A. I think it was along the cells; third grade block. 380 Q. What tinie. la the day was it ? A. I don't remember exactly the day, what tiirie of daj; I rather think it was along toward eTening. Q. Yon were on guard in that part of the prison ? A. Ye®, sir. (}. Had you seen him that moiiiing, or the fore part of the day ? A. ko; I don't know that I had. Q. Was he ia the same cell in the momingsi, as far as j^u know, that he was in when you saw the bniisie upon him ? A. I couldn't say: my duties, when I was on, was to relieve isomeone else; I hardly ever took any two changes alike, unita tte last yeaa*. Q. Is there anything from Avhich you can judge how long it was before you saAV him with a bruise, that he received it ? A. No. Q. Do you know where this man is how ? A. I do not. Q. Do you know who put him into the cell that you saw him in ? A. No, sir. Judge GQbert. — ]Mr. Chairman, I think I will say, ais far as the declarations of this man, Markle, I hardly think they are proper. Mr. CYaig. — I think so, too. ' Mr. liabcoclc. — Will they be stricken from the record ? Mr. Oraig. — Yes, sir. Q. Do you know -where Markle is n,ow ? A. I do not. Mr. Brockway. — He is not here now; he has been gone a number of years. Judge Gilbert. — We ^ill introduce the record of Markle, 2389. Q. Do you remember an inmate by the name of G-rant, consecu- tive number 384fi ? A. I don't remember his consecutive number; I remember his name. Q. Do you remember his first name ? A. No, sir. ' Q. In what department was he ? A. He wa^ in my class. Q. Did you at one time examine his back ? A. I did; yes. Q. You may describe it. A. It was in the siame case of Lynch;' that is, it was sort of reddish, bluish tinge, from here up to here (indicating), same as the other. Q. (Mr. Craig.) On the buttock ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you notice, if anything, with reference to the skin being broken? A. I couldn't say as the iskiln was brokeu, but it looilfed ajs if tihie width of sometliing was a little rateed, a^ if it might be broken; I didn't examine it dose enough to find out. Q. Did you discover whether there were any sores? \. 1 don't think there were any sores that I knuw of. , Q. Do you know that he was taken to thiei bWi-room.? A. I couldln't swear that he was itaton to the bath-room; I never saw anyone .tackjen there. 381 By Mr. Craig. Q. Did Hie leave your charge that day; did any one come for hiiaV A. iNo, ^sil"; I thilik he 'vs'as cihalked in at noon. Q. So that yoiu diidii't see him leave yonr shop that day ? A. No, sir; as a rule I think they were when in their oeilte ait noon; they were chaljied in at that time. Q. Th'eire is no ciaicitimstanice you can state that wonld bear on the question whether he had been in the bath-room or not? A. No, 'sir. B]}- Judge Gilbert: Q. He was in your dassi? A. Yes, sir.' Q. Was he in your class in the forenoon ? A. Yes, sir ; he Avak Q. And wag what you call chalked in ati noon ? A. Yes; there was genenally a mark on the door; thoise that werei left in. Mr. Cra,i!g. — Did yooi see it? ■ The witni-^ss.— No, sit. Q. Did you ;see him that afternoon? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was ThaJt the time when you saw hiei back? A. Yes; along toward the afternoon siomjetikne. Q. You say you saw him in theria that aftjemoon, aaid'ixamined his back? A. I didn't examihje hisi back; I simply looked at it. Q. It was in the condition you have described? ^ A. Yes, sir. Q. At that time what did he my with reference to where he had received the bruiise? ( ! Mr. Babcock. — We interpose the same objection. • Mr. Cnaig. — Yes; take it ;sulbje;ct to the same ruling. A. I didn't ask him whene he had received the hruisies; he said that he would try and make hiis task so he wouldn't have to go to tjh'e barth-room aigain, because he saiid he wasn't capable of doing it, and wanted to know if I couldn't get his ta.sk lowered; T told him that riemained with' the superintendent entirely, and T |iad nothing to do with it. Q. Was that the time htejsihoiwed you his back? A. YeS', sir. Q. Didn't he show you anything? A. He said the superintond- *ent had punisihed him; said he had been paddled. Q. Do yoii know of his having ibeen paddled before that? .:V. I don't think I did; no, sir. ]\rr. Craig. — What time in the afternoon was it he sai4 those things? The witnesB. — Along in the aiftemoon, just about 3 ofclock, 3 or i o'clock, when the men were getting ready to go out to the military; he Came back to 'his tasik. Mv. Oraig. — It was an hour or two after he came back he isbated these things to you? 382 T\h ^\itnem. — He came back, I should tihink, between 1 amd 2 o'clock ; and this was allong abofut 3 o'ch>ck he stated this. Mr. Craig. — ^Vn hour or two afterwards? The witness. — -Yes, sir. Q. Did you know an iamiate by the name of Blackmorie? A. I did. Q. TMiat departinentt did he work in? A. I think tihe black- smithing department.. Q. "V\%at did you see with Tieferencia to his face being cut, etc. ? A. He had a very bad s.wollen eye; I had rieportied him. f or haTing a little chain ; I was on duty at noon patrolling the jsoTitlh block. By ]\rr. LitchfleJd: Q. Speaking of the last casie, of the man that complained to you that his task was too miux^h for him, and asiked you to intencede for him; in your opinion, was the task too much? A. I think the man was incapable of doing his task; he was a dullard, and not over brigbt; I don't think the man wais' capable, in my eisltiimatSion, of doing the taisk required, ' although the task was ver^i small. By Judge Gilbert: Q. If you, as his instructor, and having dhajrge of that depart- ment, believed that his task was too hard, why did you report him? A. For the simple reason that the rulesi were laid down to me td report a man if he didn't live up to hiis task; that >vas the reason I reported him. Q. Did you recommend the reduotiotn? A. Yes, sir; I think I did; I did; yes, sir. By Mr. Babcock: Q. Before or after? A. I think it wasi before this. ' Q. Do yOu know? A. Yes, sir.' Q. Was it before? A. Yes, 'Sir. , Q. Who to? A. To Mr. BrOckway himself. Q. In writing? A. No, sir; to him persona,lly in his office, that he said he wasn't capable of doing the task, the spelling was miserable, and I submitted' the proofs, what I thought was proof of his hot being capable of doing the task. Q. What did :Mr. Brookway say? A. He said, "Leave him on it a little bit longer, and see what he will do. Q. After that you made lliis report? A. I made reports every day. Q. Was it in consequence of your reporting him as having failed in his tasks that he was sent to the bath-room? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Babcock. — I don't see how the witness can know that. 383 Judge Grilbert. — He has stated he was maa'ked ou't, and thiat means to be taken to the bathi-noom for eome purpose. 13ie witness. — I don't think there is amy offlcer that knew they wen't to the ba/th-room because,' as I liave said before, they were chalked im at noon, geniera'lly by someone om the guard-room floor, by some oflfloer. Q. Do you know by /x^hat authoirlity, or under whose direction, men are chalked in, as it i® tennied? A. I couldn't say who doute it generally; one who has charge of the books on the guard-room ftoor, as a rule, Q. Isn't it true they niay be chalked in for various reasoiisi; violation of various rules? A. Y6s, sir; it is. ' Q. So when a man is chalked in from, your depajrtnient ilt does not follow you know for what' reasons? A. ifo, sir. Q. Or that he is to go to the barth-room? A. No, sir. Q. What doies that mean, "chalking in?" A. It generally means — I couldn't describe, there are so many different i^easons they could be chalked in. Q. Whaft does it mean after they are chalked in? A. It is generally an investigation of some kind ; and if he has loss of marks for one thing he is chalked in for thalt; he received a notice, he showed me the notice, unless he should make his task good in the future that he should pertainly be paddled ; he showed me the notice himself. Mr. Brockway. — Did you ever see the word ''paddle" on any notice I wrote? A. I wouldn't say "paxi'dled," that he would receive " physical treatment; " I t^ink that was the term that was on the note. Q. How long before you saw his back in the oondiltion that you refer to, was it that you saw thaA notice? A. I think he got several notices, two or three, told me he had failed, unless he made his task good; I wcm^t say what the term was; the meaning was he should go to the bath-room unless he made his task; that is about the sum and substance of it. i Q. How long b€fo}?e you saw his buttock in the condition you have mentioned, was it after you saw the last notice that he received? A. I think it must have been two or three days; I couldn't swear for cer't!ain. Q. I want the time that he received the last noitipe, andi the tune that yoiu siaw Msi bkittbiofc in the condition you have men- tioned, had yon repoirtiedl him? A. Yes, sliir. By Mir. Oraig: Q. Your wen^ boainid to Tieport the simple fact witlhout amy opinion of your own? A. Yes, sir; to fulfill my dutibs in regard to the inBtitliitfion. 384 Q. Your dtuty wiais to nepoirt tihie simple fact wiLetlieir the man had dodiie Ma task or not? A. Yesi, siir. Q. Not your opinioii aiS' to whethier he could lia,T© done it? A. No, sir. Q. I undtemsitand you to siay befoipe thisi you. had orally stated to the STiperinteoidBnt that in your opinion lie was not capable of doing his task? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Are thiere any other cases in wMcih you made simiilair ropoiits? A. I think there was oitiher cases, but I can't remiemJber thie men's names; I liad twenty odd men under my chiaji'ge; sometimieis' I had some twenty-five or twenty-ea'ghjt men. Q. Do you idientify any case in your, iiecoUectdon soi yon can give the histary of it? A. I don't know as I could Q. Do you know wlhether or not on expnesBdiag isnch lan opdniion the task was e-^-er reducied? A. Yes, sin; in some cases it was; I do remjember in one casie of a German; the taisk was reduced because he was just leaming English.; fori that rteason he reduced his task. Q. Do you remember other oasesi? A. I thinli ttue case of Dobbin was the same. Q. That you had made tlie recommendation and tta superin- tendent bad followed' your recommendatdion'? A. Yesi, sir. Q. As I understand in thliis ca*-, where the man was paddled youir fommer lecommendation on expression of opinion thiat the task sliould be reduced was not followed by, any reduction of task? A. I think the task was reduced sometwliat. Q. Was the task reduced befpre the paddling took place? A. I think it was. Q. It was for failure to do the task as reduced that the man was was paddled? A. Yes, sir. Q. After 'this reduction of task which you nlow speak; of, did you expriess any opinion to 'the supeiintendent tihiat the task sihould be further reduced? A. I did not; no, sir. Q. In youi" opinion was tte tajsik as redticed a proper one for tliis man? A. I don't think it was. ' Q. You think it was still too Mgh.? A. Yes, sir; because he was I)erfectly, what I should call an ignorant man, Q. In your recommendation to tlue saipertilnttendeiit or yoiu" expression of opinion that the task shionld be reduced; did; you indicate how much the reduction shlould be? A. I don't remember as to that; no, sir; I couldn't say. Q. You can not say then that the. taisk wasi not reduced so much as you recommended? A. I thinlc it wasi; I think we talked the matter over, andi put liim on that taisk. Q. So you think the reduictilon was in accordance with your recommendaitaxMl or expreas opdnipn? A. Yes, sdlr. 885 Q. You did npit, at tihie tkne you siaiw IdJr. Birioickwayi, recommend any fuartfeCT rediraotion? A. I did! noit. Q. You Iliad a talk oiver togietiier, amdl tine aiupemxteiudenit foiUowied your recommemidiatittni? A. We put Jhitn on tihie same task lie stanbed iai on; thiat wa^i 250 emei per hour. Q. Is that what you recommeoidied? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you hbave any evidence aiftanward that produced any change of opinion as. to whether the' reduced task was too mudx or not? A. For the same reason that I don't thimk he was a fit man ftw thfe printing departmient. , ' Q. Why didn't you ^tate .thajt?' A. On several oooasionsi I trited tb get Mm diropped fixwn thei list. Q. Before the paddling? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you say to the superintendent ? A. I told him he wasn't a fit man to learn the printer'si' trade, that he was very fr^iow, ii miserable speller; in fact he had' no education to spealc of, to go on and do 1;he printers^ trade. ' Q. After the paddling did he fill the task ? A. I don't remem- lier; I think he did after a while; the task was never raised to its full amount. * ' Q. Did it rem,ain at the point where it was when he was pad- dled ? A. I don't repiember, because I left in, the year. Q. So far as you recollect it was not further reduced after the paddling ? A. No, isir; Ms task was increased afterwaird. Q. So far as you recollect did he fill the tasili after the pad- dling ? A. T iMnlc he did, after a while. '. Q. How long after ?- A. A number of months. Q. Did you continue to report him in die meanwhile ? A. I did. Q. Did he receive any further paddliog' ? A. I don't remember; I couldn't say. By judge G-Ubert: Q. You remember the case of Blan chard ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you see in reference to his face being bruised ? A. I saw that his face was very uioch bruised; I reported him the toy before; might have been two days, for having made a little tiair chain; I received it in my — I asked him to give it toi me, I'nd he said he didn't have anything; I told him he certainly did, iind wished he would hand it over to me, and he said he didn't have luytMng, and hie partner, who was in with him, said, " Grive it to lim before you are chalked in," so he gave me this chain; tMsi was n the afternoon or eTentng, just affcen the men were in thleir cells, shut up for the evening count; he gave it to me, and I reported lim; I gave him a second-class report for having this in Ms pos- 49 386 session; Mr. Winnie asked me why I didn't make it a flmt-clasB report. Q. Never mind about the particulan's ; wliat did you see with I'li'erenee to the inmate aftei-ward ? A. Aftei'wavds I saw h im in the cell at my noon patrol, his face from here down (indicating) was, as I stated before, very much discolored and swollen. Q. Any cuts ? A. I don't think\so ; no, sir. Q. Did he say where be received the bruise ? A. I asked hilm nothing at all in regai'd to it. Q. Do you remember what that man's first name was ? A. I do rot; T don't know any of the men by their first name. By Mr. Babcock: Q. Although you undeaistood that you had no right to inspect this man's buttock or talk about it at all, whether that wasn't out- eide of your liae of duty ? A. I suppose that it was. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. Do I understajid you to say that the rules of the reforma- tory are such, or that you understand them to be such, that if an inmate is bruised that the keeper has not a right; an under oificer has not a rilghlt, to examine him ? A. I tihink that iis tihe case; yes, sir. Q. So that no mattei- how bad they may be injured, the officeins have no right to examine into the matter, or give the matter any attention whatever ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they are prohibited from mentioning it to anyone, is that so ? A. I think tha;t is the rule; yes, sir. ' Q. Either in the reformatory or out of it ? A. I don't know how it is about out, I know that was the rule in. Q. You are not to mention it or report it iX) anyone ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that rule a printed rule ? A. I think it is in the book of instruction to offlcens; it may be not quite so strong as that. • Q. Are you not permitted to report the case to the iseirgeant o]' anyone ? A. Yes, sir; I underatand you have nothing to do ■5\'ith it; that is to say, I imderstood it. Q. As you understand the rules, the instructoa", a person who has charge of these clais&es, is not permitted to talk with one of the inmates with reference to matters outside of the busiiness in which the instructor is engaged ? A. That is as I understood it. John A. Eoney, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge GUbert: Q. Are yon employed in the Elmira refonnatory ? A. Yes, sir. 387 Q. How long have you been employed here ? A. Sinice the 15th day of June, 1893. Q. Do you know anything about men who worked in your shop that have been taken to the bath-room and punished? A. No, sir. Q. What shop are you in ohai'ge of ? ' A. Brass department and molding department. Q. Whajt, if anything, do you know or did you see in reference to inmateia that worked in your department having bruises upon tlieir :?aces or blaclcened eyes ? A. I. have never seen no bruises on their faces or blackened eyes. Q. What have you seen ? A. I have seen marks on the small of the back that was sihowed to ine, that it was claimed was caused by the paddle. Q. What is his name ? A. Hogan. Q. What is his consecutive number ? A. I don't know.' Q. In what department is he employed ? A. Brass depairtment. Q. T^Ti-en' was it you |Saw these ,mlarks upon Ms back ? A. Last August. / Q. Describe the appearance of his back as fully a& you can ? A. Nothing more than similar to the width of your finger, a sci-atch across. Q. Where was it ? A. Along in there (Dr. Smith says just above the buttock). Q. (Mr. Craig.) You point two or three inches higher tjhan you did befome ? ' A. I made no measurement^ I claim along ttueire about the hips. Q. (Ml*. Craig.) Now, yon are down where you were the first time; about the highest point ? A. Right here by the small of the back. Dr. vSmith. — Tbiat is jusit on the limit. Q. Did you ever examine any other inmate's back ? A. No, sir; the way I came to notice this was when they were changing their clotheis; he showed me this when he was gO'inig out to drill. Q. How wide a space on his back was it black and. blue ? A. About the width of two fingers. Q. How far around his body did that black stireak extend ? A. It varied; perhaps that far (indicating). , Q. How near the backbone was this black and blue spot; was it more upon tihe side of the person ? A. More uiM)n: the side than it wais in the oeJiter. when I saw it. Q. Did you discover anything indicating that the skin had been broken and that it bled at any time ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know how lonig it was before you saw it that the injury had 'been Te<)eivied? A. I do nioit. / 388 Q. Do ycm know of any oihev ingtance where jer and I says,. "Wby don't you assist bim," and be said no,thing; I went along about my business; the next afternoon, about the siame time, when they were double-quicking in tbe same gentleman fell lagain in tbe isame place; be assisted him to a chair, and I isaw tbe gentle- man in his room; '^balked in bis room for three or four days after- wards as I used to paisB by and I neyer saw hSm since. 392 Q. Can yon give the name and mimibler of tlha* pensKm? A. No, sir; I dom't know him; I wasn't acquaiated with the gentleman. Q. Do yon know what became of him? A. No, sir; I don't know whetiheir he is heire yet or no. Judge Gilbert. — We desire a lis* of all the inmates ia the refomiiatory on the 26th of Septembr, 1893. ]Mr. Hoppe. — That will be furnished. Judge Gilbert. — The list of all ti-ansfers to State prison within the last six years. Mr. Hoppe. — That can be furnished. Judge GrUbert. — A list of all transfers to asylums for insane criminals within the last sis: years. Mr. Hoppe. — That wiQ be furnished. Mr. Oraig. — AH of tflioisie will be furnished ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. Judge Gilbert. — Can you furaijsh in the list in reference to the insane that have been transferred to oriminal insane hospitals, giving the grade fix>m which they were transferred ? Ml". Hoppe. — Yes, sir. Judge Gilbert. — Also the per cent of insane that are trans.- feiTed from the first grade, the per cent transferred from the middle grade and the per cent transferred from the lower grade. Also, resolution of the board of managers adopting the rules and regulations submitted. Also, a copy of all rales and regula- tions adopted by the board of management fixing or directing the method of discipline of the imnatas. Ml". Craig. — If there is nothing to be said on the question of time the coimnittec:' will, when they take a recess, take it to this place next Wednesdaj- 'morning, eighteenth of October, at 9 o'clock in the morning. Adjourned to Wednesday, October 18, 189S. Wednesday, October 18, 1893, 9 a. m. The committee met pursuant .to adjournment. Present — Hon. Oscar Oaig, chairman; Mr. Edward H. Litch- field, Deputy Attorney-General Frank R. Gilbert, John H. Stanch- field, and E. F. Babcock. Mr. Craig. — .1 received a letter from Dr. Smith, one of the inves- tigating committee, dated New York, October sixteenth, advising me that on retumiing home he found one of his children sieriously ill Avlth fever, and he says: "Should the fever continue, I shall not be able to leave home, and I trust you wiUgo on without me; I shall read all the evidence that I shall not hear." This mom- 393 ing I reoeiYed a telegram at tlie reformatofj, as follows: " Daughtef too sick to leave. Go on without me." Now, of course, ou most accounts, it is desirable we sihbuld go on, especially on account of tlie reformatory, I sfuppoise, inasmuch, as we have beem ad-vised so long as we reimain hei'e it is an occasion of dlisturb- anoe among tie inmates, but the membere of the inveisitiga,ting committee piresent would pei*liapis not feel like going on without thfe formal consent of the parties in interest, to be entered on the record. Mr. StancMeld. — Do I understand in the event tbe manaig,e- ment should prefer not to go on without Dr. Smith being here, yotu could utilize the time iu some other way, in holdinjg those private interviews ? Mr. Qnaig. — In piaa*, but we 'had hoped to utilize) ail the time this week td finish' the, reformatory, so • as not to return here except for the defense. Mr. Stanehfield. — -I thoiugiht he might be here iu a day or two. Mr. Oraig. — I think not; I thiimk he woiuld not be here before an adjonimed day, inaismusch ais it is a case of fever, amd the tel«i- gram this morning steems to indicate there are no favorable developxaents. Mr. Stanehfield.^ The m^ainiaigieimemt very much pireifer to have a full commission here; we have started thait way, and from our staindpoint both of you gentlemen would perha,ps acquiesce in the force of that situation. Ml'. Oraig. — Yes, of course; but on the other hand it doeB seem desirable to go ahead and get the matter out of the way, and if Dr. Smith reads the ©videnice — Mr. Stanchfleld. — I did not know but it would take you gentle- men two or three daf^si Mr. Craig. — -I thiik the interviews would be confined to one day; quite a numiben of lihose who- have written lettersi liave refriaineid from, maiking nuajny statements favorable or unfavorable in the lettei-s, but have expressly requested interview^'; of coui-se, those interviews won't taike very long; we can asicertain in a min- ute or two whether a mian knows anything he wants to say; if he does, then we can have him before us at a public hearing after- wards. We might get through with those interviews in half a day, and I should say probaibly in a day. It would seem a pity to lose the time this week. Mr. Stanchfiield. — So long as these private interviews were to be had, as I understood from tihe statement made here the other day, I thoTight perhaps you could make those. ' Mr. Oraig.— I do not think they would ooijsume more than a day. The private initeamlewisi would mo* be cktended; we coiuld 50 394 tell in a miirate or two wluetJier tihle maini knew apyHhiog lie waiated tx) stJate under oartii ; if sO, we could ta^ke Mb naime dbwn. Mr. Babcock. — ^Wliy mdigM tlhat not be domie to-diay? Mr. Graig. — Then Thjiirediay, Friday and' SaJtuinday wooild be thrown away. Mr. Babcock. — ^We mig'ht by that time be willing to go on If that portion of the work is to be donei, at all eventsi, wh^y no* let it be done now? At some time we miglhtl, poBisdMy, reaclh a con- olnsion to go on; of couirsie, the albisenc© of Mir. Smitlh relaJtes mome particularly to the medical member of this -comimittteie. In the previous hearings there has been some diflflicuity itn lo'ciatang the precise portion of the person of an inmate tharti iaaB been treated, and he is, in our view, quite important in that partLciuIaiT. in detiermininig. In that view we regard his pneteiemicei as important, while thils priTate exiamination is going on, we wouMI hiave further time to comsider, and we might consent to taking the tetstimoiny. Mr. Ciaiig. — Dr. Smith expressly- altatea he would oarefuUy neaid all the tesrtimiony, and it would goi without isliyiing fujrtlheir|,,tihat if there ia any part of the testimony or of the exMbits pensomally or otherwise which would require hils special knowledge itni Order, for us, to arri-ve at a proper conclusion, that sJhould be repea/ted in his presence, bnt the great maisisi of it probably wonld not relate to his special knowledge as a ispecialiSt in any manner. IMr. Babcock. — Is there any objecitSon to the committee making this individual examdnaltiofa to-day? Mr. Orlal'g. — What do you say to tihat, Judge Grilbert? Judge Grilbert. — So far as I am concerned, I do not object to it. U understand on the part of the prosecution that Mr. White is obliged to leave for Buffalo to-morrow evening, and he was in liopes that your interview with the inmates might be had while he was absent. ^h: "VNTiite. — That is a private affair, and I would be wUling to defer that ' Judge GrUbert — I know of no objection, inasmuch as you expect to have an interview with the inmatesi, those who desire to communicate with you, you might as well have thait interview to-day as well as any other time. Mr. Oraig. — I would like to hear from the Attoimiey-General Avith reference to the propriety of going on to-moarow in case we got through with the interviews to-day, so the whole matter may be properly considered. Judge Gilbert. — It would not hardly be necessary for me to express any opinion at all, proA^ding to-morrow morning the board of management and the sui>erintendent see fit to proceed, if they should not them, perihaps it would be a matte/ that sihould be dis- cussed. I can say it would be very iaconvenlemt for los to be 895 oMiged Uo come tere again to do what wie can just as well do now. Mr. Craig. — It seemed to me if you have any consideration to presieait you might as well present them now, for the ooiunlsel to have in mind. I will ajinounoe that the committee have appoinlted John Bowers, of Rochesiter, to take charge as a specialisib of that In-anch of the general examinatiou which relates toi accounts and finance; Mr. Bowers is present in the room; I have it entered on the minutes by the stenographer, and I will ask the acting super- intendent and the ohief clerk, Mr. Hoppe, to place all facUifcies ' at the command of Mr. Bowers \vhich he may ask for the proisecu- tion of hi® work. That will be done, Air. Eathbone ? Mr. - Eathbone. — Yes, s.ir. Mr. Oraig.; — Mr. Hoppe is her^ and you respond tO' that affirmatively ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. Mr. Stanchfield. — Do 1 undersitand th.e committee to deteirmlne whether iihey will go on to-day and make the inquirias to-day oa-. ri,ot ? Mr. Craig. — They haven't determined it fully, the suggestion in my mind was this, that in response tio your suggestion that we should go oin witli the piivate intea'views that have been requested to-day, we shoiild to-moiTow morning come right back to the ques- tion we are consideiing now; it. would be better to consider it now, that you should hear from the Attorney-General and fuUy consider the question now, so as to be prepai'ed to-morrow morn- ing, if it is thought besit toi go on. Mr. Stanohfleld. — ^As I understand it, at the present time we are confronted with the record. Where yon gentlemen have laid down- the rule that at the time when the examination takes place 'if inmates in the institution, no one of the board of mamiagement are permitted to be preteient, nor the siuperintendent or first officer, nor am' representative of tlie institution, barring the counsel represlented on this hearing; I think I am right in that .? Mr. Craig. — Yes; of course there iis' no rule of procedure that may be considered as fixed, so it can not be reconsidered, bctt that IS the proviisional order and would stand tmtil further ordered. Mr. Staaiohfield. — I think I voice the sentiment of the man- agement in stating that we can not at the present time consent to go on formally upon the record without tlie presence of Dr. Smith h.ere, but I do not cane to leave the subject in that cursory way without explaining to the members of this commission the reason that actuates us. Dr. Smith is conoededly a man of great ability in his chosen profession. Suppose, if yon please, a wit- ness is produced upon the stand who testifies to the fact thait he 396 has been spaiiked', if you will, eight, ten or a dozen times, and that he says, for illusitrartion, that he is suffering from some die^ ease of the kidneys, centainly neithet Mr. Babcock nor myself coaild intelligently suggest to Judge Gilbert such questioiis) as would be germane to the tesitimomy on that subject. Dr. Smith, sitting by your side, is a man learned in that line, he would have the unqueaitionied right himself to address such inquiries as he might see fit, and with an effect I am not prepared to describe at the present speaking. The answer of thel Atltomey- General toi that proposition would be this, we can call this man to-day, and such quesitioDis may be put to Mm as he sees lit dai f a.^-or of the thjeory of this- prosecutioni. He would accord us the privilege a month htence — six weeks hence, of recalling thati man for the purpose of croiss-examiinatioin, either at our own suggestion, or when Dr. Smith might be pre- sent. Our answer to that is this: I am forestalling what he might Slay, because he has said that in the room, aside, it would be -bruited through the press of the State, the testimony had here been offered in your hearing that a man had been spanked in the institution a dozen times, if you please, with results so'disaster- oua a.s to give disease of the kidneys. At this time if Dr. Smith were here he might disabuse the mind of the newspajier world, he might disabuse the mind of this commission by a half dozen questions, that the man was suffering from something else than kidney disease. There are a dozen things that might arise that he could elucidate here. I think public sentiment has a good deal to do with the result of this investigaltion. Public senti- ment may make or unmake legislatures. There is no doubt about that proposition, and we desire to go before the world as strongly presented in the columiis of the newspaper pi-ess as possible, and we certainly insist there are grave reasons why we ought to have Dr. Smith here, he being the only medical' member of the board that is sitting upon this investigation. We do not intend, and I want to make that emphatic, the slightest disrespect in the world to the other two members. llr. Oraig. — That would go without saying. Mr. Stanchfield. — I do not want to occasion any unnecessajry delay. I know it disrupts the Attorney-General's offtce and occasions you a great deal of inconvenience. We have here a magnificent institution, that is the product of almost twenty years and there are those in this couununity that love it and admire ilt, and there is a great deal behind it when I say that we want a full, fair hearing before the board, as it originally was institued. That is all I have to say, gentlemen. We do not mean by that we objected to these personal interviews. ' 397 Mr. Oaig. — You would not object tb the examiniatioii of wit- nesses outside, where the officefis and managers of the reformat tory can be present? Mr. Babcock. — I do not know whether they have been provided on not. > Mr. Stanchfield.^ That question had not occurred to us. Mr. Oraig. — Judge Grilbert, have yoii ajiything to say on this point? " I Judge Gilbert. — I do not know us I have anything particular to say, fui'fcher than this: The committee understand as well as I do the fact that it is xery inconvenient to hold these ses- sions, and it is very important that we should proceed with the investigation as rapidly as possible, and we expect, at least. I am informed, that the prosecution expect to close their affirmative evi- , denoe at E'lmina ait thiis hearing. Now, if the hearing is postponed it reqniiries us to m^eet again for the purpos© of doimg what we expedtedi to do at thiis heaiung, amd I did eiuggest, and I now suggest that it seems to me that the hearing might proceed with ■tihis nmiderstandimg, tha* if thiene were any witnesses called on the part of the prosieontion who gave evidence in reference toi injuries, and in relationi to which the defense might frequiire questtions to be put which would! call forlth anisweris or evildence which wiould be proper for an expert to "considler, that thosie witnesses might be reoaiUed when Dr. Smith was present, and re-examined by either party desdring tlo re-e±amin,e. That, so far as all other evidence is comoemed, it .seems to me, it would be proper to piroceed now and Dr. Smith upon reading that evidence, would be quite able to detemmaale its value amd weight, and if, in reference to those witnesses, either party desiired, whem Dr. Smith was present, to have them re-exiajmined, have it umdeiistood they might be re-exam- inied, but it seem to me we might accomplish a good deal and perhaps we might close the evidenioe so far as the prosecution is concerned, ajt this hearing. After the evidence is introduced, that is, paait of it which is expected to be inttroduced here, then several seissions of this committee are to be held at thei other points, and after aM of the affiirmative proof then the defense will introduce theiir proof, and we will mot be obliged, if we can close the afflmna- tive case now, we will not be obliged to retuitn here until the defense inrtnoduce their proof. Now, of course, personaily, I ought nOft to exp'fei^ any desire in reference to the m'ajtter, amid, I sup- pose, occupying the posatiom I do, I have no right to say ajiything •further than what would be proper amd just to boith parties^ but it iseem^ to me it iai juist to both pairiiesi we proceed as fair as poeisdble with this hearing now, and that we proceed in such a manner tiha* each party may still retain all the rights: w'hich they 398 may Jiave in conmeotaoli wiiih. (tMs maittesr. If we can ©lose tlie proof now it seem to me that we slioiuld. Mr. Graag. — Are there witnesses othier than the inmlaJtes wbx) are ready to be examitied? Mr. G-Hbert. — I umderstand there aire about ten witnesses tihat have been subpoenaed, or it is expected woiuld give evTidence of the same character as that introdoiced at our previous keariagB^ but it is thought that would be only cumulative, and that it is unnecessary to call them. I undensitamd there are two or ttmee witnesses who are expected to give evidence wirth referemce to a matter in relatioin to which there, has not been any evidence yet given, but whether they avtII be called now or not I do not know. • It was expected, at this hearing, the prosecution would puooeed wilh. the examination of the inmattes, and would examine up tO' the limit specdfled by the ohlainnam, nam^y, twienty, and they have been isubsitanlially selected, as I understtand it, and thiey are neady to call them. I repeat again, if in refeirence to any of those wit nessas, and I understand it is exx>ected no others will be called at this hearing, if in reference to those, if there is any one of lihem either pai-ty ujjon the hearing befoipe the full board at this place desires to have re-examined, and examined in full, they will haVe the opportunity and right of doing so. I do not know laB I have anything further to siay. Mr. Craig. — As judge-advooate, as in a court-maritial, you think it would be fair and proper toi go ahead wiitih this under those conditions, and you so advise the committeei, I undleristand, to go aihead now, without waiting for the presence of Dr. Smith, on the undacsitanding that if any party in interest wishes any witness to be personally examined before Dr. Smith, he sliall be re-examined. I understand you so advise the committee. Judge Gilbert. — I will say this, I do regard it as fair and best for the committee to proceed under all the circumistances ; I have not stated all. I have merely referred to masters relating mainly to the convenience of tlie committee, but there are other considerations. Mr. Brockway is virtually suspended %)m the control of this institution, and the longer this invesitigaition is continued, it may be that the suspension will continue, and it is fair to him that this investigation be closed as soon, as possible; that is, if there is a fair probability of supposing that he is to be restored to the management Mr. Oaig. — In any view, you do not see how any rights can be jeopardized under the condition you name, that any witness can be recalled at the request of any party in interest, and be personally examined with Dr. Smith present? 399 Judge Gilbert. — I can not see how tliere can be. The only objection that could be raised is perhaps jou are not advancing any, because it may be that all of those witneisses will be called back and re-examinied, but I take it that would not ocoilr. ^ Mr. Craig.— Some wOiuld be examined on points that wiould not have any relation to the special knowledge of am expert, 1 suppose. Mr. Babcock. — Will you allow me a word ? Mr. Oraig.-^ — Ceiteinly. Mr. Babcock. — "phe remarks of the Attomey-Gremei'al has not met the objection that was given for the unwillingness oo the part of private counsel to proceed in the absence of Dr. Smith, that ■ relates to the publication of the evidence which may be -taken here to-day. The evidence would con^sit simply of the direct examination that will be published to form, public opinion, while the cross-examination is postponed until Dr. Smith may be here, and it does not seem fair the direct examination should go forth to the world to fonn public opinion without bedmg accom- panied, by the crbss-examination, and we would be utterly power- less, mik every member of this board, Avith every offloer of tihe adm^raiistnatLon excluded, it would be impossible for us to intellv gently cross-examine a witness who claimed to have received per- manent injuries from treatment received in thisi institution. Mr. Craig. — It may be out of th^ twenty there will not be two; perhaps four or five. Mr. Babcock. — 1 o^n not tell how many there would be, but tne enLbarrassment will confront us jiist as soon, in my judgment, as a .witness is pujt upon ithe stand; we will then experience the inconvendjen,ce resulting from the absence of Dr. Smith. The examination is given aoad scattered through the papers to the world, prejudicial to the insititution ; whereasi, if we could foUow the direct \yitih the Cross it would go to the world together, and the institution would not be prejudiced by the partial publica- ion of the testimony hostile to the institution, accompanied by that. part which would right it up and do justice to all parties. That objection hais not. been met by the remarks submitted by Judge Gilbert. Judge Gilbert. — Perhaps I ought to have said siomefti^ng in reference to that, but I suppose that the report of this committee would be based mpon the evidence that was preisein;ted during the entire investigation, and that it would not be based upon public sfvntiment that had been created by newspaper publication. Mr. Babcock. — I do not mean to intimate the commission would be influenced by the public press, but the public press makes legislatures, apd I know in one instance that by the method pursued by this committee he has been prejudiced against the institutioin, whereas if he could have put this testimony, cross with 400 the direct, I am sure he would have reached m> siuoh comclusion :My allusion to public sentiment has no reference toi the commit tee being influenced in their d(?termination by any questions pre sen ted here. Mr. Craig. — It was not so sitated by Mr. Stamchfield, it hat reference to legislatures. Judge Grilbert.— I suppose whatever conduMoms 'thiis coimuit tee may come to firet, those conclusions will be based upon proof and that whate^-er report they may make will be made either tc the Legisilatufre or to^ the AJt'tomey-Genieral, and thai the Legislature, it is fair to assume, that their actioi will be based upon your report so far as this insti tution is concerned, and not upon newspaper reportisi, and i1 might as -nell be urged that we should not proceed with anj part of the afflnnative proof bbfore the defense had an oppor tunity to introduce their proof, foa' the reason that if we did sc proceed thali the newspapers ^\•ould , publish 'the affirmative prooJ before evidence was given in opposiition to it. Now, i* seems tc me the positiou is not one that sihould control the action of this committee with reference to the disposition of this question. Th€ question is, what is fair with reference to what method ought this committee to adopt, in oi-der to get before it all of the proof thai relates to the subject of the inquiry, and get it before the com- mittee fairly and fully. We can not be responsible, noi- we car myi: control public sentiment, no matter whether it is formed fi'om what is stated in papers or what is stated in the streets. and our action should not be controlled by any such consideration as that. The question should be, how can we best get at the facte and get at them in the quickest possible way? That, it seems to me, is the true question to be considered. Mr. Oraig. — There are two considerations' that have occurred to us, one is that if the committee sihould decide to go ahead to-day \it would be with a modification of the rule that no offlcer or manager should be present, and permitting the president of the board of managers. Dr. Wey, who is also an accomplished and distinguished surgeon and physician, permitting him to be , present, and with the condition further, that at your request the same person should be re-examined in the presence of Dr. Smith. On the other hand, if we should decide, in view, of your position, not to go ahead to'-day for the special reasons that you have named, that the examina- tions which we contemplate making to-day may come within the Special purview of the member of oair committee who is an expert, we should -want it understood that that should not be a precedent againSlJ our proceeding on any future occasion!, if only two meim- bera of the committee happened to be present. We can not indefi- 401 nitely prolong tliis exaamination'; there is so umoh. of it we feel oppr^sed. Mr. StajQioMeld. — I have not thq slightest idea of making any snch request; I only make this one in view of what appealed to us as a very strong array of circumstances surrounding it. Ml*. Oraig. — We are moved by it, and ajt the same time there are very grave considerations to the contrary. Mr. Stanehiield. — I concede that as frankly as you state it. Mr. Oraig. — -I think we will retire with the Attorney-General and conclude the matter on the two conditions that we have named afSrmatively, whether we decide it one way or the other. The committee hereupon retired and upon coming into the room the ohairman said: The commitifee, after conference among themselves, and with tlie Attorney-denei-al, . have come to a conclusion. We have appreciated the position of the counsel for the reformatpry, but wc- have also appreciart;ed the considerations on the other side, aa 1 intimated before, and it is a very serious question what is expe- dient, or right or proper in the premilseis, but we have concluded to give the ben:efit of the doubt to the reformatory on the express UEderstanding, as we understood before we retired, that it shall not be considered a precedent against proceeding on any future hearing when only two membei's of the committee are present. Mr. Stanchfield. — 1 was going to suggest, in reference to the - ten witmaslses, anything of that kind we would be willing to go on. Mr. Craig. — A gTeat many of those wquld be left out because tliey are cumulative proof, and they probalDly will not be called at all unle'ss two or three. The Attorney- G-eneral is in complete accord with the committee on the final consideration, as I under- stand, Judge Gilbert. Judge Gilbert. — Mr. Chairman, for two reasons I have come to the oon.clueion that perhaps it would be better under the oir- cumarances to postpone the hearing. One reajson is, as I under- stand, the nature of the proof that is expected to be introduced on the part of the prosiecution, or the facts that are expected to be swoim to by the inmates of the prison, that they relate filmost entirely to pensomal injuries, and in view of that fact it may become neceissary, if we postpone, on the condition that aU wit- neisses giving evidence of that character may be re-examined, that so far as the examination of those inmates are concerned, we would not gain much, of any time, and then the condition which is proposed on the part of the defense, that if you proceed without Dr. Smith 'that it shall be in the presence of Dr. Wey, there is an objection to that, for the reason that his presence might intimi- date or embarrass the inmates when brought upon the stand, and 51 402 under all tlie ciiMjunistances I tliink that perOiaps it wouLd be better to postpone the examination of tllie inmates until isucb. time as Dr. Smith, can be present. Mr. Criaig. — Then it is with the express undersitamding, Tih: Stanohfield, 1hat this shall not be a precedent against ppoiceeding as to witnesses other than the inmates of the Teformatory, if only two members of the committee happen to be present. Mr. StaaidhfieH. — I shall not take the attitude of asking the indelinite postponement at aU. Mr. Crajig. — There is a fuDther consideration which has influenced the oommittee in coming to their decMom, that tihe pogtponemjent is not in reality such as it is in form, as much of the time will be made use of in pri\ate interviews with prisoners, a.s they expressly desired to have interviews. Mr. Babcock. — The question as to who shall be present on the part of the institiu'tlon hals mot yet been fully deteaimiilnied, when iijmates are under examination. Mr. Craig. — The counsel for the institution, Genei^al Babcock and Mr. Stanchfield, may be present. Mr. Babcoclc. — Do I understand that you have finally passed upon the question as to who shall be presietnit? Onle of the subjfjcts for private .consultation with the committee was as to who would be present, and tihe committee decided the chairman of the boiaird might be present. Mv. Craig. — That \A'as only a provisional expedient, to do away with the objection as to Dr. Smith's absence. If Dr. Smith shall be present the tnmaites shall be examined before the investigattng commiittee, with no ofSoer, or managei', or employe of the institu- tion present except the counsel. Mr. Babcock. — The point I am emdieaToirftnig to ascentain is whether when the full committee is presiemt we may be heard upon the question as to who may be present. Mr. Oraig. — Oh, yes; if it is cooisidered reasonable. Mr. Babcock. — You will hear uis? Mr. Onaig. — Certainly. Judge G-ilbert — This' majtjter is under conisideration ; perhaps it would be well enough toi ask at what point® or what places the committee expect to hold sitting®. Mir. CSraig. — WiU you smggest? Judge Grilbert. — I hardly think that is paait of my duty ; but the reason I ask 'the quesitiian is this : Whetther or niot it might not be bertiter tx) have the next heairtng at some other point where other witmesisies can be examined. I ask the quiesition now for tihe reason ilt may be that Dr. Smirtih, owing tb the charajoter of his Wuisinesis, etc., will be unable to attend those mieiefciags, and whjether or mot it would not be besiti to ppoceed and tlaJsie thae ©vi- 403 dewce aiiJ tlhose points m 'as to. go f onward wiitii Hie inTCistigation as (rapidly as posmTale. Mr. Onai'g. — There is some quesitaioii wheithleip we shall mot be oMiged to go to on© or more of the State prisons amd examine trarasifers. Mr. Fanaiag, havie you amy isiuggestion to make? Mr. Stanehfield. — Wlien it Is determined upon, can we have furnished us a li^t of such witneBises as will be exatmined there, so we can take along such recoirds as would be germane and pertinent to such exaomination? Mr. Cuadig.-r— We havien^t got them. Ml'. Stanichfleld. — -I t\'OuM tiaike them. We should know who was to be examined at Auburn or ellsiewhene. Mr. C5riajig. — I don't see why tihlat ite not pTOpfef toi faoilitaite proceedings. Mr. Stanchfleld. — We wouldn't want Judge GrHbeirt to ask, " Why are you here, and what happened at thilsi time, and that timue, and iso on." Judge Grilbert. — I am intofcmed that ithoise i^epresenting the people desire, before they aire required to give any isuch testi- mony as that, that they have an opportunity to examine the recoirds of the refoTmaitory for the purpose of enajbling them to detiermine who they wUl call. Mr Stanohfleld. — In yoiujr capiaicity as judge-advoioate, you would not say ,that would be fair, would you? Judge Gilbert. — I am not ansiwetning questiOnlsi, I am. aisMng ttooi. Mtr. Stanchfleld. — I want to know whether you say that; is fair or .not. Judge Grilbiert. — I think it would be just asi flair for you to exhibit your records with reference to those witnesses' as it was for you to exhibit the records with reference to others. Mr. Stanehfield. — He examined all the recoirdis' of the institur tion, all he desired to. Mr. White. — -Wo, sir; I am not througfh by any means. , itfr. Stanehfield. — You have the right amid the opportunity of doing it. 'I Judge Grlbert. — I supposed it was a continuing right. I guess yoiu did not understand what I said or desire to say. It is this: That before givilmg the infotrmiation you refer to, that he could have an oppoirtunity to further examine ihe records to see what witneisises hie would call. Mt. Stanehfield. — I undienstand his right does exist right along. I di^ not know it had been albridlged or curtailed in any way; there has been no change in the attitude olf the institution toward Mr, White's ri'ght to the record. 404: Mr. Oeaig. — I do not see why it is no* pnoper, in order to ptions will take place, and also at what points, if any, tbhe examinations will be held other than at the prisons, so they may be preparing and arranging their proof for those particular hearings, and that then^ before the hearing occurs, a reasonable time before it ocousm, the names of the witnesses that ajre proposed to be examined may be fur- nished to the other side. Mr. Craig. — Yes. Say within three days. Mr. Stanchfleld. — Three days is enough. I want to make another suggestion, when yon take the whole thing under advise- ment; that the adjournment be flxedl so as to endeavor to secure the presence o^ Dr. Smith at Auburn, because the same class of witnesses will be called there. Mr. Oraig. — We will endeavor to do thait, bnt if he should happen not to be present we go ahead. My suggestion is we go to Dannemora, as during the inclement part of the year it is unpleasant reaching the place, and in any event while we are engaged there we have to go to Plattsburgh, seventeen mUes, every night for lodging, and put it week after next so that Dr. Smith probably can be present, but if he should not be presenit we should be obliged to go aihead. I want to say further, before we make the final decision granting the motion of counsel for thei refarmatbry for' postponement of that hearing on account of the absence of Dr. Smith, that it should be with the express understanding, we are not pre- cluded from hearing, even as to the class of witnesses who may be inmates of the institution, without Dr. Smith at any future hearing; that is, in addition to your stipulation. We reserve that. Mr. Babcock. — I would like tA inquire what offtcer of this insti- tution will be permitted to be present at the examination of inmates who have been transferred at other prisons. Mr. Oraig. — That we haven't considered. Ml'. Babcock. — We would like to know who wei may have pre- sent there from this institution? Mr. Craig. — It goes vidthout saying counsel may be, but we havent considered whether others may be. Mt. Babcock. — We desire, and I ask that any member of tiie board of management that chooses to attend may be present, that Mr. Brockway, if he so desires, may be present, and cer- tainly that Mr. Hoppe, the business clerk of this instltutibni, may 405 be present in ordei; to enable the refoiTaatory counsel to properly interrogartSe, ttuJougli the judgevadvoCate, the witnesees that may be produced at other places. Judge Grilbept. — I had riot supposed you had disposed otf the other quesitions, namely, as to where hearings would be had. On conference with the gentlemen representing the other side, I understand that the probabilities aire that you will be desired or reqtiested to hold meetings, one at New York, one at Albany, one at Auburn, one at Dannemora and one at Buffalo, for the con- venience of witnesses, and I think I might say here that they expect mairily to introduce proof at those points relating to the extent and continuance of the abusive methods of treatment; that that is about all. I thought it was best to call youn atten- tion to that. ' Mr. Craig. — The suggestion of the committee is, as I under- stand, that we had better go to Dannemora firsts, and we should postpone the hear/ing until week after next, hoping that Dr. Smith- would be present, but undierstanding also that if he is not. present we shall proceed. Judge Gilbert. — That yoiu adjourn to meet at this place? Mr. Qraig. — Noi; at Dannemora^ the Clinton prison. Judge CUbert. — So your n:ext hearing will be at Clinton prison ? Mr. Craig. — -Whether Dr. Smith is present or not. Mr. Stiinchlield. — Three days before that hearing we are to be furnished Avith a list of names of those who are to be examined thtire ? Mr. Craig. — That is the order. Judge Grilbert. — It is suggested that the prosecution reserve the right to call other witnesses tlian the names of those pre- sented, if, upon tlie examination of those witnesses, it is found necessary. Mr. Craig. — Oh, yes; that may be considered. Judge Gilbert. — Witii reference to Mr. Babcock's suggestion, I suppose that that question was siettled at the previous hiearing, thart during the examination of the inmates' of the prison or the pSToled priaoneirs, those yet under the control of the prison authorities; that during their examiiiation the board of man- agement, or the members of the board of management and Mr. Brockway were not to be present. Sir. Opadig.- — • So far as you stated, it wais settled afflrmatively. Judge G-iilbeT*.— Butt that the counsel for the board of man- agement and the superintendent would be present. Mr. Craig. — -Yes; but not the superintendent. Now, we come to another class transferred to the State prison, neither inmates nor on parole. There is this consideration!, however, that at the request of the reformatory they may be brought back. That is 406 tke only question, and we have not considered that. That is a ntw question. Now it comes up with reference to our examina- tion week after next to Cliniton prison, whether we slhall extend the i-ule to the tnanefeiis to the State prison. I state a comsideira- tion that applies to that new quesion, namely, ithat tihe tran'Sfers aw not there permanently by necesisiiy, but ai'e subject to retranisfer to the reformatory, as I unders'tand it. Mr. Stainchiield. — Upoe the demand of the board of manage- ment, I suppose that is tlie rule. Mr. Cradg. — Now the question is whether, under that condition, tlie same reason for the i-ule that applies to the inmates of the I'eformitory, including paroled prisoners, does not apply to transfers in the Ir^rate prison. If the reason applies of coiujpse the laile should apply. Mr. JBabcock. — ■ TMs admindHtration, the affairs of this tnsititu tion, are undei' serious charges, and I think iit fair and juiafc that au\ member of this management shoidd be allowed to be present, confronted by the \Aitnesses against them. If the committee differ with them as to the extent of the applicatdoin of the rule, \\hl(-h I deem to be jusit and fair, then I insist at least that the superintendent and, at the least, JNlr. Hoppe, must be present to enable the counsel for the reformatory to properly inlteirrogate the wiinesises adduced by the complainant. It is utterly imppsi- sjble for us to do it without tihem, and without t!he records, and I do earnestly submit that we be entitled to have present to aid us as counsel, the superintendent and any member of the board wlio desircis to be present, and by all means, if nobody else is allowed to Ih^ with us, that at least Mr-. Hoppe, who is the bnsinesB clerk of this institution, and has nothing to do with the disioipline, should be pi'e.sen.t to present the records and suggest such ques- tions as sliould be suggested to the judge-advocaite to be put to tlie witnesses. .Mr. Craig.— Will tlie board of managers pass a resolution they will not demand a re-ti-ansfer of any witneisis examined wiiithout his free consenit, so we may state to him as we do to inmiates of the reformatory that he will be absolutely protected ? Mr. Babcock. — ^^'^e do not want them back; Judge Gilbert. — I think there is a misunderattanding heiB. I ttdnk Mr. Babcock's objeotibm covers the examinaitiion of the inmates here as well as itihe paroled prisoners. Mr. Craig. — I didn't iso understand it, neitlhieir tIhe inmates nor the paroled prieoneirs. Judge Gilbert. — I wish to make tMsi eoiiggeation, as I understood from the evidence that was given upon tihe last blearing, many of those tranisf ers were mode, not because of the vicioiusness of the 407 prisoner but because of rtihle f aiot tlia/t theite weiPe BOit aocoiamioida- ttanis sufficieuit bere ait Elimina Would iib be jusit) to tihe prisomier to deprive bjm of tbe ligtut to be broiughlt bAck Uo tUe refonniatory? Mr. Onaig. — My siuggesitioin; wais #iey siuould norti ask for has reta?ajnMfer witbout bis oomisemrt. Mr. Stanicibfield.— We lane pefrfeetly wiUinig to pass sucb a resioilnitiioiii. Mr. Onaig. — Witb tihjat rasolutioin it sieeimisi to me it wUl be not only best on itbe mierits, but it ceiitainly wili be best in thie way of pTOioedure to have some officer present ithietpe in ondea" to avoid calling isuidh. a, witness again, after the exaaniaation siliail be given to tibe offloers as we oantemplalted bare. Of counse, if an inmiaite bere teetifies against thie siuperiinitendent in his absence, he isi to be made acquainted with that, 'and if be wishes may be reoailled foT ciPOias-examiination; that sbould be done, but w'beni we oome. to the prison in 'the outlying disitriicts we oan not do that very well, and, theneforei, we can have an officer of the refoipmiatoiy present with tbe protection that I bave suggested, namely, a resolution of the mianiagers. Judge €rilbert. — With tbat protection I can not see any objec- tion tb the boaaid tif miamiaigement or any member of the board of majnagement, or to tbe superintendent being present, just as tbey have with neference to the esaminlation of other witnesises, or Mr. Hjoppe being presenlt. Mr. Oraig. — It is understood thiat the lesatminationBi in the State piiisonis, if the wardens, ivFqjecttiVel}', do not object, will be made public the same as these beairinigs. Mr. Staaidhfleld, you will bave at the next beatrinig, at Clinton prison, a oertifled copy of the resoilution of yoiur managers to the leff ect tlhat I bave siuggeetedL Mr. Stancbfleld. — Certainly. Mr. Oraig. — If it is not ailready undersitood from my etatie- 111 emt, it sbould be further stated that we goi tbere with tbe per- mission of tbe Superintendent of State Prisons, and whatever we do will be witb bis permissian, and the nature of tbe beariiiB there, wbether public or not, will be swbjeot to tbe consent of the superdmtendent or of the wairden of tbe pMsom but subject to such oooQisemit^ it will be public m fair as tbe directkm of tbe tavesitigating committee is cancemed. I think any repoortier wbo wants to undiers.taind, wlietber it wll be public or not can conmiunicate with the Superintendent of State Prisons at Albany, iso as you can be assuned. Of course, we will not let in the whole ourtfaide world. Mr. Baboock. — In view of a remark made by Judge Gilbert, I desire to place upon recoird thie fact tlhati trcunsfers from this iagititution to others aire not largely because tIhe reformatory is overcrowded, but ai'e largely madte up of a class of inioorrigibleis' 408 TVhjo ciam not be helped hepe, and t!h.ey are transferred in ordar to make room for later eenteooioed inmaltes to tMs tnistltutioin. I desire to disabuse the Inen of the commisBiom and Judge Gilbert that those transfers are becauise of oyerorowding. Thiey are from the inoodn^gible class, and because they can net be helped here and not beciausie the prison is overcarowdied. It is done simply to make room for the later oonviot for whom sometteng may be done in this institution. Judge Grilbert. — I doi not wish to have it understood I have made a misstatement here, for I have certainly underistod from what occurred at the last hearing that transfers had been made from that reason, namely, that the prison was overcrowded. Dr. Wey. — That is only in part. Judge Gilbert. — I say in part; I understand Mr. Babcock to intimate none of them were transferred. Mr. Babcook. — Oh, no; I meant the greater portion of them were incorrigible, who could not be helped here and were there- fore transferred. Mr. Oraig. — The evidence would show wlren we came to look at it. » Mr. Stanchfleld.^ — About how long wiU it take ah Dannemora? Mr. Craig. — I should suppose a day ought to take care of every- thing there, but I do not know. What day, Judge Gilbert, do you suggest week after next? Judge Gilbert. — Any day that will be convenient to the com- mittee and others. Mr. Craig. — We might then adjourn directly from that to some other piisoiL -, i Mr. Stanchfleld. — Thait same week? Mr. Craig. — Yes; I would say Tuesday, if convenient to lllie others. For the benefit of anyone who expects to attend the hearing at Clinton prison, tiiere are no aocommodations at Danne- mora, and you wUl have to rely upon Plattsburgh for accommo- dations, seventeen miles distaint, and you go up from Platts- burgh early in the morning of the day of the hearing on the Ohateaugay railroad. I understand there is a small hotel a.t Dannemora for those who wish to go there and stay. Mr. Stanchfleld.— That is Tuesday, October thirty-first? Mr. Oraig. — Yes. Mr. Babcock.— Referring to the suggestion of the chairman that the committe adjourn from the OliUton priilson to Auburn priBon, in that connection I desire to say we ought to be as soon as pos- sible advised of the tranisf ers of witnesses who are to be called at Auburn. Mr. Craig. — I think those who have the names of witness*^ at hand had better give the names at once or soon. 409 Judge Grilbert. — WitMii three days. Mr. Oaig. — Yes. They shoidd do it as soon ps they can. Mr. White. — -Yes, sir; we will. Judge Gilbert. — Suppose Dr. Smith, should be able to meet with you here on that day. Wouldn't it be better to haive the next hearing, if Dr. Smith can bo present, where his presence Ik imt'st needed? Mr. Craig. — I would suggest that if Dr. Smith can not be pre- sent on that day and can be presiemtl that week here we will adjourn directly here, but that will be understood when we get there. It may be understood there may be very short adjournments to different places. Now, Mr. Stanchfleld, we called for abstracts of the records. Have those been prepared? Mr, Hoppe. — I have nearly all of them finished, but one state- ment is not quite completed; it will take seYeral days more to complete it. Mr. Oraig. — You will have it at the next hearing here ? Mr. Hoppe. — ^^ We have six or eight men at work at it, and have had them steadily. I expect it wUl take about another week. Mr. Craig.— What is the statement that is not completed? Mr. Hoppe. — The record of bath-room treatment. Mr. Craig. — For the lasiti five years? Mr, Hoppe. — Yes. Mr. Oraig. — That we want as soon, as possible. If you will send a copy in addition to ilr. Fanning, as soon as prepared, then you can verify it when we have our next hearing here. How about th.e roster ? Mr. Hoppe. — I have that ready. Mr. Graag. — Suppose you produce now everything that you have. We will change tihe rule on the record from three days' notice of witnesses to live days' notice. Mr. Hoppe.-— List of all prisomers at the reformatoiry September 26, 1 893, wMch contains their consecutive numbers^ names, gi'ades and military ranks. ; Mr. Oraig. — Is that made under your supetrivsion ? Mr. Hoppe. — It is correct. , Marked "No. 1, October 18, 1893 — J. M. K." Mr. Hoppe. — List of prisioners transferred to Clinton State prison, from October 1, 1887, to September 30, 1893. Mr. Craig^ — That made under your supervision ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, and it is con-ect. Also, list of all prisoneirs transferred to Auburn prison from October 1, 1887, to September 30, 1893. Mr. Craig. — That made under your supervision ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. 52 410 ilr. Oraig. — la it oorreot ? Ml'. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. ill'. Craig. — You make no transfers to Sing Sing. Sir. Hoppe. — We never have made aJny. List of prisoners traua- ftrred to insane asylums at Auburn and Mattea\\an from October 1, 1887, to Septembea' 80, 1893. I was asked to present percent- ages aJso; the total numbei- transferred during tbe six years wais nineteen, of which. 31.58 were transferred from the upper flnst grade, 15.79 from the lower flist grade, and 52.63 from the second gi'ade. -Marked " No. 4.'' -Mr. Craig. — That made under your supervision ? Mr. Hoppe. — Personally by me. yir. Oraig. — And it is correct ? , Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. I also have here copies of the resolu- tions of the boards of manag-eii'Si specibilly tkosie thJat refer to the adoption of the rules and regulations, submitted the other day, and also Siuth othierB as I could find relating to the methods and discipline of the refonnatory. Air. Craig. — Did you make that personally ? Mr. Hoppe.— I dictated and I know i( is coTTect. Ml". Craig. — You dictated it from the records ? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes, sir. Prom the records of the board of managers. From the original resolutions as th.ey appear om the records of the managera. ilr. Carig. — Is that a correct transcript from the recoirdls ? Mr. Hoppe. — It i.s, to the best of my knowledge and belief. Mr. Ci'aig. — DfM-s it include all the resolutions on the record and all the actions of the managers on the record relating to the by-laws and regulations and relating to the discipline of the prisonei's ? Mr. Hoppe. — I have carefully read through the entire record, and selected everything that I consider of snfflciemt importance or consider to bear ui>on the point covered by you. I wish to state that outside of those resolutions which I have copied, there are a large number refen-ing to transfers of prisoners from here. Mr. Oraig. — To specific cases ? Mr. Hoppe. — Specific cases, which I have not enumerated in here, but the general resolutions have been copied in here and the general action. Mr. Oraig. — Relating to the discipline and treatment of the prisoners is all there ? Mr. Hoppe. — It is aU thena Mr. Craig.— Wharti is tihe racord you made the tiiiainsicrip.ts from? Mr. Hoppie.— It is the pecord of the makiutes of the proceedings of the noianiageips. 411 Mir. Oadg. — For what period of time? Mr. Hoppe. — For the entire period since tihie opening of the inBititlutioiu. Mr. Craig. — In one book? Min. Btoppie. — Two boolcs. Mr. Oaig. — Who has charge of them? Mr. Hjoppe. — They are art; thie nefbrmartwry. Mr. Craig.— Who hajs charge of them? Mr. Hoppe- — They are uisually locked ia our vault. Mr. Omig. — In the vanilt of the records of the inBitiifution? Mr. Hoppe. — Yefsl, sdr. Mr. Craiig. — Who is secretary of the board? Mr. Hoppe. — Benjamin Swarbwoodl. , Mr. QnaJlg. — HJow long has he been secretary? Mr. Hoppe. — Since he has been' appointed. Mr. Omig. — When was he appoinited? Mr. Hoppe. — : About twoi yearsi aga Mr. Craig. — Who was the secretaire before? Mr. Hoppe. — ^ James B. Rathbone, 4he present aoting auperimbemdeimt Mir. Oraig. — Ht>w long was he secretery ? Mr. Hoppe. — I think .sitnice 1887. Marked "No. 5, Ocrti 18th, 1893 — J. M. R." Mr. Oraag. — AnytMng else? ■ Mr. Hoppe. — The other startiemient I wiU try to have ready for you. Judge G-ilbert. — I am reqiuieisited to ask the reformaiboiiy to pren sent a list of men paroled from hospital since Ootoiber 1, 1887, to September 30, 1893. Mr. Oraag. — You will do thart, Mr. Hoppe? Mr. Hoppe. — Yesj, sir. Mr. Craig. — This exhibit which gives the numiber of persons pajddled vrtthin the lasit five yearsi; how is it marked? Mr. Hoppe. — Thart; isi the one we are working on. Mr. Oraig. — I wish you would iuckide, aB a siupplement to it, the list of prisonerH whioi were received prior -to the beginning of the period of five yearsi, and who hla,ve been paiddled during the five yearsi, and givie the number of paddlings and the number of blowa Mr. Hoppe. — -I can prepare such a srtatemenit but it will take some time. ' Mr. Oraig. — Do the other flrst. [ Mr. Hoppe,. — Thila srtiatteiment which is at work now^ is very large and very compliete. It will be a voilume of sheets two feet by two feeib, art] least a thousand pages. I wiU have it in such form and 412 so tabxilated amd analyzed tliait itlhie miarttefr wMcJi the committee desiipes to lia\^ may be very easdly taiken from it. MJr. Oraig. — You neeidl niat wait to prepare th.e siuupplemijent b€ifoaie serving the copy of the ecdxiMt. It is undeirstood then when we do adjourn this public heaalng we sihaill a:djoiu!Mi toi a hearing at Qlinton Staite prisooi, Dannemioinai, on Tuesday, the itihirty-first day of October^ at 10 o'clock in the foirenoDm, and tihat from that place, Clinton prison, the adjounnmieiDrttei may be tiaken from day to day, at ttot place or other plax^es in ith© disk2retiom of the investigating co'mmiittee. Mr. Babcock. — If at otiher placeB we ane to have a list of witnesiaes? i , Mr. Oriaig. — That is already e/taitedL I want to ask Judge GrUbetPt if there are any wdtnessiesi otihen than tnmajtes of the reformatory who c&n be examined before we adjourn this hearing. Judge Gilbert.. — I am informed there are none. Mr. Graig. — Then I wish to call the attention of the officers of the reformatory to the importance of giving the investigating committee a secure room or place for our private interviews witih the prisoners, as we propose to have no officersi or employes' ofitJxe reformatory present. We do not Mant to take the responsibility of holding them against escape.' If we should have the intei'- views in this room they might make for any of those doors. Dr. Wey. — You may meet those men here without fear. Mr. Craig. — I suppose the room where the superintendent has interviews with the incoming prison^s, and where he receives them when they come. Mr. Rathbone. — That is in constlant use and! can halrdly be spared. If you will let a clerk be presiemt with tlie prisoner we will be responsible for his escape. Mr. Oraig. — We do not want anyone present, except our own stenographers, and the Attorney-General, if he wishes to be pres-emt. We want a private inicerview'with those prisoners whom we may designate, and we do not want to be responsible for their escape. With that intimation and understanding w^ will take any place the authorities of the reformatory will designate. Mr. Rathbone. — We have another room back of that 'we will let you have. It is a small room. Mr. Craig. — Is there anything further to be considered before we adjourn? ' Dr. Wey. — Yes; the action of the board just now in relatioi^ to the matter mentioned a moment agoi Mr. Oraig. — Were all present? Dr. Wey. — Yes, sir; we were all present at the meeting. 413 Mr. Stanchfleld. — I have tlie resolution here. The fdUowing is a copy of the same: " Elmika, N". Y., October 1'.'. 1893. "At a meeting of tlie boairtl of managers held at the reforma- tory Ootober 18, 1893, the foilowing managers were present: W. C. Wey, M. H. Aimot., Jas. B. Eaithbone and Wm. H. Peters. " On motion of Manager Arnot:; "Resolved, That as relates to transferred inmates confined in, any of the State prisons giving testimony before the investigating; committee, they isihall not be returned to the reformatory except on their own request or witii their free consent. "WM. H. PETERS, "Certilied copy. ^^ Secretary pro tevi ." Mr. Oraig. — Is there anytiung further anyone present wisihes to bring before the committee before adjournment? Mr. Babcock. — I would like to know if the stenographer is to be present at these private interviews, whether at any time oounisel to the reformatory will have aocessi to the testimony? Mr. Craig. — Thisi is the proposition, that these interviews! are for the infoirmation, to infomii the conscience of the committee, as you might say in a court of equity, and if we find that any of the prisoners who come before us in such interviewis claim to have knowledge of facts which should be presented on the record aa part of the basis of the findings of fact by the committee, they" will then be brought into public hearing and give their testimony under oath, The preliminary interview will be strictly private and confidential, and I will say further that the majority of these prisoners, and perhaps all who have requested these private inter- views do not make allegations against the reformatory; aiS a rale the interviews are with prisbners who have made no allegations but request an interview. Mr. Babcock. — Then it does not go into the records? Mr. Craig. — Isot at all. It is for the stenographer to preserve foi' our considesration. It does not go into the evildlenee from which we may make findings of fact. It is preliminary. Judge . Gilbert. — ■ Them anything won't be made pu'blic ? Mr. Oraig.-— Noi; whatever sihould be made public will be under oatJi. Mr. Babcock. — Wail go intio thie record? Mr. Craig. — \e^ sir; on tihie h.eajring. Mr. White:. — I would like penmisisaon, if I can have it, to have a stenographer or a clerk to come up iheone with mie to help me in going through these recoirdis. ' 414 Mt. Craig. — On tihe sbLpuilatilon ywu have adready made? Mr. White. — Yea, bit. Mr. Hoppe. — In oirdeir to prepare tihesie sta-temeratB on whiidh we are to work, our records are in constant use; eitiheir I would have to post^iione the statements I am preparing for [vou; I hla,ve eight men working at this statement, and each one has one boolv. Mt. TVliite. — All the bookis in use? I ilr. Hoppe. — AM the conduct hooks. Jfr. "Wlii'te. — I can not very well select my list of witnesses then. , Mr. Craig. — I tihMk yooi will haive to- nork it in together some way, yw. Hoppe. — I would be Tieiy Avilling to do' iit^ but I think I will be unable to submit the stattemeoit when I sug^sted. Judge Gilbert — .Us I umdenstood it, Mr. Hoppe was toi prepaire these sta,tement8 as rapidly as posisdlble, amd I supposei really if they are prepaa-ed and submitted befoire th.e investigation closes it will be substantially iln time. .Mr. Onaig. — We would like it beifoir(\ aooid would like' it as soon as possible. If he is interfered by Mr. White or others that isn't hip flault. Judge Gilbeit. — Inasmuch as Mr. White is required to submit hi.-i list, of \Ait]ies8es befoTie the thiirty-flret, and Mr. Hoppei has more leewaiy, he could better give way. Mr. Craig. — Yes ; Mr. "WTiite, do you undertialie for itihe stenog- rapher ajs you have undertaketn for younseif, that this is a personial matter, amd has no relaitiooa' to any newispaper or any person except yourself, and that none of it shall be published without the eon- sent of the investigation committee, and not before it is received in evidence. Mr. T\Tiite. — -Yes, sir; I wouldn't like to have it stdpulaited This ppiTSon should be a stenographer, but my assistant, a person to assist me in copying records. ;Mi-. Craig. — You maikei the undertaldng for him am you sitipu- lated foir yooinself? Mr. White. — Yesi, sir. yir. Craig. — I see no objection. He mrast ihave clerical assist' ance enongh to enable him to take memoranda. Mr. Hoppe. — Any informiation Mr. White may desire to glean f iiom our boco[nisiilstbein.t with the f aotsi. j , We havie been isttall f uritiher :embairaslsed by t!he demiamidls from the committee for very voluminous transcripts from our records — a denDamd for partdial faotsi, wlhiloh, if umaoooimpaiiied by a more full statement thiam was asikied, ils oalciuiatied to mMead. The managers swbmit finally that so much publicity has now been given t)o the proioeediinigs, thaJt it} ils wdll known tlhlat the cofloaimiittee now bave before tiheim laiLL factB' and oppontumitlies neces- sary for the mois)ti thorough i!nvei&ti'ga,tioDa, and so great is tihe public comfldenioe in tlite perstoraniel of the committtteei, tlhartJ thefre can be mo reasomalble complaiint finom tihe public, if 'this opequiesit from thie maniagfensi is complied with. And since tihe objeciti of the investigation is not tihe triumph, of the enemies of the ref orma/tiory by 'theip adroit, perveme paMioajtioras, but rather to find the truth and promote the public welfare, this appeal for the proper protection of the reformatory and itB officers is most respectfully made and siubmitted. Darted, Elmiira, October 24, 1893. WILLIAM C. WEY, President. M.I H. AHISrOT, JAS. B. RATHBOlSnEs WM. H. PETERS, BElSlJ. L. SWAETWOOD, Board of Managers. Mr. Babcock. — This request does not and is not intended ta reflect upon oi' cast discredit upon the reporter or upon the press, but it is made for tbe reasons stated in the petition, on the gi'ound disitinctly expressed that a publication of a portion of the testimony, and that portion such as is given by the prosecution, unaooofltnpanied by the publication of the testimony in full is pre- judicial to tbe institution, and let me say further that this request is made not in behalf of the management, not in behalf of any individual, but for the welfare of the institution: and to prevent it being unjustly prejudiced in the public mind by this partial publicaytion of testimony against it, unaccompanied by the testi- 53 418 mony as an entirety. We respectfully smbmit this request, be granted, and that it be incorpor'ated in tbe reoorda Ml*. Craig. — It will be incorporated in tile records in the first instance before it is ruled upon. Mr. StancMeld, have you any- thing further to say in snppO'Pt of the motion? Mr. Stanchfleld. — Not at this moment. Mr. Graig. — Judge Grilbertl? Judge Gilbert. — Mr. Chairman, I do not know thait I am called upon to say anything in reference to the matter one wayi or the other. It seems to me this is a matter addressed solely to the discretion and good' judgment of the committee and the board. Very much can be said both ways in reference to it. I under- stand very well what the position is the committee has already taken in reference to this subject, and I do not feel in the position I am placed that I am called upon or required to express an opinion one way or the' other. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I would like to make just one obseiTation of this nature; I asisurae, and I think ^\'ith prop'iety, that the last thing, the last resort, the la»t matter that the committee would wish to have happen would be such a prejudice generated throughout the State as would result ui the abolition of the reformatory system; I mean by that the refor-matoiy as at presient conducted. There has arisen here and there all through the State, perhaps not from any political party, but from individuals, people perhaps solicitous for public oflfice; others in the desire that the reformatory at Elmira should be subordinated to the sway and domination of the Superintendent of State Prisons, that sentiment is yet in its infancy, if this goes on and garbled, I don't mean garbled perhaps, but one-sided unilateral statements are made of the testimony that is taken, the diflfioulty is six weeks or two months hence, when the reformatory put in their side of this case the same clasis of people may never read it, and the senti- ruent may spring up here which may result in wiping out the entire reform system. That would be turning ms back a great many years in the progresis of penal reform in the judgment of the speaker, and we have that in yiev*^ iu. making this request, as much as anything else. I simply desire to call your attention to that. Mr. Fanning.— Mr. Chairman, if you will allow me to dispel wha,t is apparently a false inference in this paper; that is in reference to the abstract of prisoners' records; those were taken to Albany, but no person whatever has seen them except myself, not even the Attorney-General. They have not been used in any way. 419 Me. StanicMeid. — I presume the impoort of ttat was Mr. WMte, at the insitaiice of the oommlttee, had access to the odgiaal recoT(te. Mr. Fanning. — Oh., yes. I thought you referred to those that had been left with uh Mr. Babcock. — ■ Oh, no. Mr. Oraig. — The inyestigatiiig committee appodnted Mr. WMte to examine ihe records on the nomination of parties in interest, the naminatioii )being first objected to on the part of the refoirma- tory, the objection afterward being withdrawn, aaid under the diistiniot intimation from the inyestigaiting oommititee, and the imdensitiaindtng that if the oibjiaction was not withdrawn such appointment would not be made, for the reason that tbei invealtii- gatiinig coimmittee would be governed by the rules w'hich gener- ally obtain in conrts of record where nominations for appoinit- mi?|nt of referees, etc., and examiners, the coTirfc doee not apppoint tihe person nominated if objected to by the other side but make^ an 'a|)poi!n.tnient of its oiwn. After the objection wals withdrawn the investigating committee aippointed Mr. White, but it was clearly in the judgment of the investigating oommlttee for the interest , of the reformatoBy- as' well as foir the interest of the prosecution, if there is any, and in furtheranice of the discovery of truth that Mr. White should be appoinited, because there was some guarantee that he wouild ti-y to' find whatever there was that might suppoirt the chai^geis and aUegaitions filed, and if at the end of the Inveeitigiatioo the investiigating committee should find on the whole the allegations were not sustained, they would be betier justified if Mr. White was appointed. If, on the other hand, the allegations on the whole ishoiild be sustained on evi- dence found by Mr. White, oefftiainly it is in the interest of truth and justica that such facilliltiteis should be secured fbir thils investi- gation.. I do not see whteirie amyone is to suffer iby turning, the Ught on^ thiat is, unjujsltly .suffier. It seems to me that so I'air as justice and truth laire conicemed, the more light we ha.ve the btstttr. Now, on that point, perhaps I have siaid enough on the mei-its of the motion. I tertaiinly do apprehend and I trust alsoi appreciate the difficulties. In the beginning it was intimated by the investi- gating committee th'at there were diffidulties- in the question whether the inTeistilgatoidn should be ;secret or open, that i^ open so far as representativieis of the pulblic pireisB are oomcemed, and it was in full view of the advantages and dilsadvamtiagesof either couirise that the investigating committee, while lailil weire present, deliberately concluded and decided that the investigation should be open, and that 'as to the convicts in the reformatoiy no excep- tion should be made to that disposition of the question. I think I knew hgiw my iggeotciaJtes would feel if presienit, from conver^ 420 tions whicli we have had together since that decision was arriTed at. I am sure thait tihey would feel that there is no exception to. be made on this oeciaision, affld while we would deplome that the reformatory should be injured by ex parte publications, we per- haps 'ajre not in a poeitiVmi to control thait I muB* say, howe^'er, thiart sitrictly such publioations can not be considened las ex parte, for tihe reaison Ih&sb both parties have the privilege and the oppor- tunity of reporting; cam not bei ex parte while botih pairties can be represented in the reiwrtis. At the mine tinue I do appreciate that the impreseioins that may go fotrth from pea'feetily true and absolutely tnie reports of representations by convicts who aire transferred to State prison, may possilbly pnejudii'ce tlie institu- tion. That will be an inicildienital evil. I think it is an incidental evil tharti this commlittbee can Mot lallow (kv oven-ule tJhe considera- tion, which they cam not allow to oven-ule the disposition of the matter which has already 'been made. I v,'ainitf to say fur- ther that the invesitigiajting coaumittee hais taken every pivcau- tabn witihiin its poweir to prevemt any prejudiced or partial state- ment going before the puiblic. It was in this view that the superintendent of the reformajbory was flnsit called upon the stand to make his genenall statement before the partioulaa* issues or cases were taken up. I jsay it was in part for that reason; we considered it also fair to tIhe snuperintend- ent on the genePal merits of the invesitigation itself. It was in tMs view that it was protposed by the investigating committee that the refoiinaitory should mieet the issues and the cases on the proofs made by the aifflrmativ© as the proceeding went along, and for reasons, probably, umdoubtedly ■wihich are tor the best, the counsel for the reformatory have decided that they will wait until all the case for the aflarmative is in before making any reply. Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is predicated ujxya the suggestiom of the judge-advocate, remember. Mr. Cradg. — I did not so undensitand it. It was stated by the investigating committee at the last seisBion, before the appointr ments were made for this circuit, that the nefoirmatory were invited to meet the case, so far as it has gone, and it was decided in beihalf of the reformatoipy to postpone any reply until the whole of the affirmative was complete. I think it would be not only with the consent, but with the glad acquiescence', of all the members of the investigating committee that the refarmaitbry, if its repreBemtatives so desire, should meet the cases which, come in evidence in CUniton prison, before proceeding elseiwihere. I will not make any rulrng on that subject, because my asBociates are not here. We have, however, gone to the refopmatory to do 421 that yerj tiumg, and now we hsave entered upom another coinme on the decision of the representatives of the refonmatoiry iteelf. It miay be my asBOciateai would hot like to turn back in tha* coursie, because we do not want to be frivoloius; we do not want to bie fickle; we think tihils isi buainfeisis and we waart to go ahe'ad with it. In view of all the comsiderationis and sjubject to tiie approival or disapproval of my associate, Mr. Litchfleld, who' isi expiected on the 10.20 train, I must deny the motion. Mr. Stanchflield. — I wamt to set the counsel for the reformaJtory right in reference to one particular as to which you have spoken, and with some conisiderable emphasis; at the lasit hearing in the city of Elmira, Judge Gilbeirt, Mr. Babcock and mysielf had a ooDsultajtion in referenioe to the order of proof, and we were debaiting this very proposition as to whether or not the reforma- tory ought not at that time to introduce certain, lines' of evidence, and Judge Gilbert was quite pronounced in the expression of an opinion that we ought to defer the introdnction of proof unltU the case of the prosecution has closed. You muist bear in mind we are not here tiTing this case as lawyers, who areopposied one to the other. We are here in the same capacity. The prosecution are denominated by whatever suggestion, the judge-advocate makes, anid we acquiesce in it, and I think propetrly so, becaiuse wie do not wish to conflict in any way with what would be his judg- menit in reference to the conduct of the investigation. Mr. Oraig. — Very likely that occurred; I did- mot so understand it. Ml". Stanohfield.— I think Judge GUbert wDl siubsitanttiate what I isay. Judge Gilbert. — I think, Mr. Chairman, I did suggest the pro- priety of closing the evidence for the affirmative befone investi- gating any proof on the part of tihe defence, biit, as I un,denstand it, thiat was 'acquiesced on the part of the represientatives of the board of management and the superintendent. ., Mr. Oraig. — Oentainly, the investigating committee fully an,d unqualifiedly invited the representatives of the reformatory to meet the case so far as made, if in their discretion they thought better to do so. Judge GUbert. — I think my friends will agree with me in this, that I was cototroDed or left it entirely to them to say what method should be adopted to the introduction of proof, because I oertajinly did not deisire toi dictate. Mr. Stanchfield. — I did not desire to express you- dictated that, I simply meant that was yout suggestion. Judgie Gilbert. — I thouigWt, for several reasons', it would be better to take that) course, and that is all there wasi of it. 422 MiP. BaJbicoick'.-^ Let me say a wond in refeirencie rtio iiie remarks of Uhie cihjairmjaii in denyinig tlie requieeit. He ilsi ooinreciti in saying the tesitiimony wais not ex partei, btut tihiB nequiesiti haJd' reference to <&iiB ex parrbe publilcatioan, that is, thie partaial publiicajtiiau of tiseM.- mony hoBtiie to the imstiturtion, by wMch, in the jiudgmeiit of the mana^jeoia, the institution m prejudiced), amid as toi letitdhig in the Might upon! thils inquiry, I tliink the chaiTimian will bfeauinid, look- ing ajboult in the s)hop, happened to turn a;rouind and give you a third-olasls report, and staying in the bath-room three minutes over time when I was taking a baJtih, I was in the bath-room eighteen minutes, aaxd I received a second-class report! for it; that is all the repolritisl; I mig'ht have had in four montlhis twelve or thirtteeini seconds or third class reports, none sufftoLent to give me a bad rlecond, that isi, to lose a mark; on July sixth I was making a watch chain; I had' hours in my cell after I caimie from work aifter school in my cell, I was making a watch chain out of horsie hair; I was given it by a con- vict namied Smith; the hai)r to^ make it; and I madie the chain amd gave it ((jo Smith, and I was told aifteirwaaid he gaive it to a con- 425 Tiict officer by the name of Vialeaitliiiei; I reoeaved mothittg for it; BO toibaoco; I was tailseini to the giaard-room floor July sixtih, and asked neigaird's tilie waibcb. obafLni; I told Halpiiii, comvixjfc officer, tlhat I bad tihie watcih. cbaiii mysielf; hje says, "Ootme to,yoiuir! cieli aiad see it;" I went to my ceil and ithings were rapistidie down in my cell; I was excited at tihie time; I eieaincilied ^my ciothjeai and foiund a pdiefie of waitch. ciiaam aboiutfc that long, aiboiutl foiur itnicih.esi long In my pocket, and I siaid, "Tlieipe i» tihie otlhfirchiaiin;tllie second dhjain I was making;" he saysi, "Two offenseis agaiaiisit yon;" Haipia says tlhils; I siays^ "WMrtl is iti?" he Bays, "Fimt, foBP making a watch chaSiDi^ second^ for lying foa? slaying yon had) it iln yoiuin npomi, when yon had it in yonr pocket;" he sent toi Mr. Brookwayj and Mr. Biiockway looked throngh the hooks ^andl foiund he had me marked tmthfiil; he says^ " Lock him up in M). 1;" the ■&mii call as yon go down the bloick; I was locked ia No. 1 until before dumer; Haipin oame aroiund aigain and says, " Well, are yon going to: teU wheire yon got that hair?" I saysi, "I have told yon all I coiuld Mr. Halpdn;" he siayisi, "CJome on; get ont of heme;" took me down to the baiWiloOiin, and slays, " Mr. Sample, have yon timie toi give this man a ned isnit?" Mj. Sample sayei, "Yes, 'Siir;" he pnut me in a red isiuit, and coming back he metfc a conTicitl coming down in; a blue isnit, and says, " Mark' this man redittced in grade;" this con- vie*, sayia "I have him, miajiked reported;" he saysi, "Mark him nednaed in grade otr I wiLL goi np mysielf;" he bronght me back to the ceil door 'and says, " See;, if yon had told me where yon got that hair yon wouldn't have been reduced;" with that he hauled offi and pasted me in the jaw and' knocked -me biaiok in the cell, and Slays, " Don^t talk like tbkt to me," and locked the door; that was ail ought; after dinner, Mr. Biockway came down toi the biath-room; I was uishered out by Murphy, a citizen officer there, laind he took me to the bath-room; Mr. Brockway had siome reports lay- ing on the table and he isaiys, " How did youi -get aH those repjntisi?" Mr. Haipin says, " It isn't! a report, it isi making this watch chain;" "Oh, yes," Mr. Brocfcwa^y mya, "where did yoiui get this hair?" I says " Mr. Brockway, I found that hair, found it in the shop;" in fact it was thrown into a place where I picked it up; I wasn't teUing a lie to him; I tk>ld him I found' it; he didn^t ask me who purt it there; he asked me where I got it; he says, " That wiU do; that is an old .sitory; ge* over there and take down your pants;" I wentt to go over to where you hold up your hands against the window;' I turned 'around and saysi, "Mr. Brockway, I would like to esii'lain this;" he says, "Get over there;" got excited like, and with thait I waisi graibbed' by convict Haipin and a citizen, I don't know his name, "Jimmy the Tough," he is known in 'the 54 426 reformaitoiry; he is known hj all thie inmatleis' of theidrefoinnartwry as " Jimmy, the Tomgih.;" a mam that has a very tough wialk on liim. Q. GaMed Miirpihy^? A. No, sitp; it ,maK Muiripihy; dark biPown mousltajche; him and Halpin grabbed ^l^ amid downed me and threw me down on the floor, and Mr. Brockway ettood over me amid sam that time until about one day in the mUitairy there was, I guess he is a Swede, and officer; a Japanese officer; he is a maiehikiesit and engineer; he was sitandinig in tihe door and was talking veiy loud, and I was trying to heair the ordlers given in the military grounds^ isio I could execute them; I turned around like tbart; and I received a seoomd-claiss Tieport foop it; ,and that was the only report I received that monitih in Jtdy until (the ^ghteenth, when Munf^'hy came over for me in the sihoip to taike me to draft me tjo Stati' prison; Mr. Brockway came along aiftemoon, J think, looking at me; looking in Ithe cells to see who was going away; I begged Mr. Brockway not to send me to State prLslon; I told him to give me a, chance;' I had made only one miisibalie, and give me a chance and I would prove myself vwarthy of it; be says), "I will give ymi a chance; they vsill give you a dhaxuae up in Dannemiora;" I couldn't do no more only walk up land down my cell ; I was taken down in the bath-room again thajt day and iroined; put a block of iron on me that weighed I guess tan or fifteen pounda, I thinli, on my foot, and sent me to the solitlairy that nSghti, with the resit of the convicts^ that was coming away tO' State prisoni; I laid in the solitary all that night -nith that big block of iron on my leg, and the next day drafted away. Q. You were only then paddled in the bath-iidom once? A. Yes; I think I never would have gone to th^ bath-room lagiaini; they took my suspenders or I would have committed suicide; I isuirely would have done it before gioing there again. Q. "V^Tiiat was the maximum length of time you miight have been there? A. I am positive I only had two years. Q. What, was the offense? A. Five years; my maximum term of sentence; aissaadt in the second degree. Q. Were you ever conviated of any orime befotrie this? A. Mis- demeanor; yes, sir; I was convicted in Albany, I thinik, in 1888. 431 Q. Foir what? A. For dlestaxyying a bundle of biroomisi on elecitioii nighit; <&mKi wajsi am laldermam eltected. Q. Were you ever oonvicitted mone th-an oaice before thieii? A. .No, isdr. Q. Wh.er'e were you semteuiced, fliisit coBvicitiiom? A. Albany peauiteiitilairiy. ■Q. It wajs for petit laipcieiny? A. Tlhley called it petit lamceaiy; the man valued tlhiean a* two doUaj-s; I lit a mateh. to them. Q. You took tfhjose bmooms from 'Some mefohiant there? A. The buooonis stoiod in. the cormer of a grocery istoire; a young man that was with me kicked them out omi the gutter and! I lit a mutch to them. Q. (Mr. Craig.) What time did you say that was? A. Election Q. Did you take away any of the birooms? A. They were carried .down half a Modi and what wasn't destroyed we're iieltuiPDjed by a young man; I fcxnget Mis name. Q. DeSorlbe more mitautely that piece of iron that was fastened to your leg and th.e mamnein in which it was faetenedi? A. It was rivetted by a hammer by two oomviiots, wMle Louis, known in the Eeformatoiry as Louis Brookwa^j^, Mr. Brockway's brother, an oldish gentlemlan, the man that taikes you away; he sitood oyer us, and aniolihier gentlemiam, a eirtizeni offtcer, stood ithlene; hie isi a great, big mam. ' ' Q. Desicribe the iron? A. A block of iron about thatl big all ajroumd. Q. How large around, how many inches aixjund ? A. I couldn't giTe the diametea' of it, btit it was a piece of iron that thick. Q. Give about Ihe number of inches the iroip was in length ? A. I didn't pay no attention. ■Q. Oouldn,'t you tell whether a foot. long ? A. If it was open I^ think it wais about a foot and a half long; it is on one hinge one side amd the other side is. riveted;' it weighs, I should judg6, ten or fifteen pounds. Q. Do you linow what that was put on to you for ? A. To se(;ure you 'so you wouidln't run away, I suppoete, and a pair ojf handouflis on you besides, and chains runnitne- from your legs to your hands. Q. That wasn't put on to you until it was decided you were to be transferred ? A. The day before I was transferred. Q. Were you at an.y time chained in the ceU ? A. No, sir. Judge Gilbert. — 1 am requested to ofEer in conneotion Avith this man's evidence a copy of the record. It is a transciript made from the record by Mr. White, and he will verify it or it may be veri- fied by oompairison with the original when we go back to Elmira. 432 Mr. WTiite. — It is a copy of a portion of tiie conduct ledger and a copy of a po^rtion of the reports from' whic li tke conduct record, 1 undeirstaiid, is made up, which, gives some detail. Mr. Oraig. — The reporte of the recoird are tihe bfiBit evidenice. If there is no objection the copies will be received subject to cor- rection by the best eAddence. Mr. Baboock. — We do objec-t, because the record is not com- plete, and it dtevolveis upon, us to iniveistigate every one of thoee cases and compare these copies to see. Mr. Craig. — There is no rule of law which com.pielBi him tio put the whole in, but there is a rxile of law which; allows you to put the resit in. Thiere is no other wa^ than to allow a portion of the recoird offesred, and let the otheiri side put in the resit if tlhey ohooisie. Judge ( lilbert. — I will make this saiggestion, they offer this now. Mr. Oi'aig. — The objection is it should be made complete before it i'9 received at all; my suggestion Is that we receive part of the record, and it is competent for the other side to put in the residue; that must be redeived, also. Mr. Babcock. — Wlliy is pai't of it here ? A. Why didn't he take it complete ? ' Mr. White. — It would requii'e a lot of these pages tlhalt Mr. Hoppe stated. What I desk-e to offer here is what will cor- roborate tfliis man. Mr. C'raig. — I don't .see any doubt about the lode of evidence tbat that portion of the evidence is to be ruled out simply because it isn't complete, notwithstanding, however, the opportunity to make it complete, and we are bound to receive the residue if you offer it. Judge Grilbert — The entire record of this man in the reforma- tory is not produced for the reason that it does not relate, very much of it, to this inquiry, and it is only that portiou, of the record which goes to corroborate what the witness has stated that is offered. If, upon examihation of the record, they claim this copy or certified part of the record is not correct, thJen they wiU bring forward the original record. Mr. Craig. — The ruling is as before, that the copy is received siibject to correction by the original record. ;Mr. Babcock. — Let me interpose hei«, I object on the ground that it is a copy made by the active prosecutor and refers to such portion of the record as he desires. Isaafl White, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Mr. Oraig: Q. Was this part of the record which is now offered in evidence, made under your supervision? A. Yes, sir; made by me per- sonally. 433 Q. Is it correct so far ais it goes? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Craig. — I dom/t see the usie in taking up time aa^guing a question of tMs sort. It seems to me the rulel of law is also aa equitable rule, and we will receive this evidence subject to cor- rection by the original record. You wOl kajve the printed minutes; including this evidence tliat is part of the record before you take up your case, and if it isn't in accordance with the record you certainly are at liberty to show it. Mr. White. — The recoird shows he was reduced to the second grade July 6, 1892, and that he was paddled that day L. blows. By Mr. Babcock: Q. Did, you take thait from tihie record) as it there appears? A. Yes, sir; "on ascertaining the truth, L. July 6," is the correct wording; the reports have this; on information it was ascer- tJained by the lieutenant-colonel that he hail in his pasisiesisioai al Kair-chain, which he intended to dispose of; on searching his room a qutotity of hair was found, such as is abstracted from the tail of a horsie, disflgniring the horse and damaging it; GTiinn,~he, found this hair in the pipe Aop; he denied having the chain, but said it was ia his room, but finally concluded to show it up, and took it out of his pocket and handed it to the lieutenant-colonel, Halpin; the larceny and the lying, with the loss of previous months resulted in him being reduced to the new second grade for general lOiSH of marks. ■ ; By Mr. Oaig: Q. Anything said in the record about his being spanked? A. Yes, sip. ^ ' Q. That is designated by the letter L? A. Yes; the exact word- ing, " on asoertairang the truth, L, July 6." By Mr. Baboock: Q. Is that a complete copy? A. No, siir. By Mr. Craig: Q. Is it all that relates to punishment and changing of grade ?> A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Babcotek: Q. It is not a complete record relatSng to this transactiom? A. It is not. Mr. Craig. — Here we are not going not upon technical rules, but upon geneial rules, and this is to be corrected by the originals, which are in your possession. Mr. Babcock. — Then he puitis in here a part of the record relat- ing to the tramsaotioin, and omitsi part. Why ia that? 55 434 Mr. Oraig. — You can show. Mr. Babcock.— Is it exactly right for him to select outl portions of the record? Mr. Craig. — We can teU after you show us. . ^ Mr. Babcock. — I have said all I care to on that subject. EichaiPd Quinn, recalled: Examined by Judge Gilbei-t: Q. Did you and Mr. White have an interview with reference to whart you would testify to or willing to testify to? A. No, sir; I did not; not in rega,rd to whait I should tiestify to. Q. Did Mr. Eoeder or anyone else? A. No, sir; not in regard to what I should testify to. Q. With reference to what you knew abouti the Elmira reforma- tory? A. Yes, sir; this gentleman, Boeder. Q. Did you teU him? A. I told him some parts of it, not 'what I was to make a statement of. Q. Do you know how that interview was brought about? A. No, sir. Q. Where did you meet him? A. I was sent for; I did not know how it was brought about. Q. One of the keepers or officers notSfy you? A. Yes, sir ; I was notified of the interview. Q. You went to a room where Mr. Eoeder, was and had an interview? A. Yes, sir. Q. State ^^•hat, if any, suggestions were made to you with refer- ence to yotur evidence? A. None ; not by this gentleman ; neither of the gentlemen. ' Q. .P>er been any suggeistions made to you by anyone? A. No, sir; not in regard td this committee of investigation. Q. Any sugge^Oin been made to you with referenice to your evi- dence? A. No, siip; there has not; no one but my own free will. Q. Wais there amy suggestion made to you wilth retfei^ence to what you should state or whetlher you should state the truth, or'' anything of that kind? A. No, sdir; I was told to tell the: trulth. Q. By whom were you told to tell the, truth? A. This geaortle- man, Boedjer. Mr. Babcock. — I ask to have that part taken out of the reoard. Mr. Oraig. — I think tiie answer is respomsive and proper. Q. Did you 'tell Mr. Brockway that you had ibeen comvioted once before? A. Yesi, siir. Q. Did *you teH him so at the time you were admitted? A. Yes, sir. ] v Q. Did he then tell you you ouightrn't to have beeai sent to the iiefoimiiatory? A. No|, sir; he did not. / 435 Q. Where, ia faicrti, did you get tihiat liair? A. I haTe alineady told you from ,&• con-vict by itiiie name of SmMi; tkrew the hjair m thje shop whetre I found it; I dildmi't tell a He to Mr. Brockway; I did actu'ally find the hair; but it was thrown there; Mv. Broick- wiay didn't ask me was the hair put there purpoiseiy for me to pick up. By Mr. Craig: Q. Was it put there puirposiely for you to pick up? A. Yes', sir. Q. Who put it there? A. Oonivict by the niame of Smith. Q. Where did he get it? A. I do not know. Q. How do you know? A. HJe told me; he says to me aftepwaa*d, "Did you get that hair;" I told him "Yes." Q. How do you know he put it there for you to pick up? A. He came and asked me did I get the hair. Q. Did you have lany interview with thia conylct befoire you found /the hair? A. He was my inistructoir. Q. Did you say anything to him or he to you about the hait before you found it? A. I told him I knew how to miake a watch chain: out of horse hair; he says, " If I can get them of anyone I will give it to you;" when I picked 'the hair up, oiver behind the closet whpre we keep our coatsi and' hats.; I picked the hair up and put it in my inside coat pocket. Q. You then believed tMs cionTict ha^d put it there? A. JSTo, sir; not at the presient time I did not believe it. Q. When did you first IbeMeive iso? A. After dinmier; I went in to dinner and depoisited the haiir in my bed; after dinner this ooaiTict >says to me, when he came to my machine to sharpen a knife, " Did you get that hair?" Q. Why didn't you tell Mr. Brockway the con-vict afterward told you he, had put it there? A. I knew the punishment thi® oonvict would receive the same as mysielf. Q. It was because you knew he would be pumished; because Mr. Brockway didn't ask you the direct question? A. Yes, sir; that is it, poisStive. Q."'Do you know where the hair came from? A. No, isir; I do not; only suggestionis aftervcairdls belbre I was drafted that the hair came out of the blacksmith shop. Q. In the institutiotn? A. In the institutioin a 'honse had died I learned ajftenvardsi, and the hair wais taken out; they had cut off the house's tail. By Judge Grilbert: Q. How louig was this chain that you completed, was it simply a watchl chain? A. Simply a watch chain; I make different partttiemisi; I have nevei? been puniished here for it 436 Mr. Oraalg. — I want tte priBoner t» slioiw Ms aoars to Dr. Wey and Dr. ElajnBKHn^ thle prison dootar, togeltiheip. (Thfi wlitoess exMbits thie same.) Mr. Craig. — I will request the prison surgewn, ttajt his hair be clipped to show, unless it is discovered without. Dr. Ransoim.; — "WTiat soar there is is easily disioovered. Sir. Craig. — Was there a scar on the lip ? Dr. EansoDL — A slight scar on the lip. Mr. Craig. — Scair on the forehead ? Dr. Ramsom. — Hardly amounts' to a scar; seems to haA^e been an abrasion of the skin. Mr. Cradg. — How recent ? Dr. Eansom. — I wouldn't say veiy recent Mr. Craig. — May be a year ago ? Dr. Eansom. — ^Yeis. Mr. Craig. — How about the head ? Dr. Eansom. — Slight abrasion; T should think the soalp wais cut there some time ago, an ordinary superficial wound. Mr. Craig. — Dr. Wey, do you concur in those statements ? Dr. Wey. — Hardly call it, in a. pix>per sense, cut; the tissue tiere has been divided. Mr. Craig. — It might have been made so the blood would come? Dr. Wey. — No cicatrix there at all. Dr. Eansom. — It shows more an abrasion. Mr. Craig. — Could blood come from the forehead and lip ? Dr. Ransom. — Blood will come from a mere abrasion. By Mr. Craig: Q. Was any violent or profane language lused on the occasion of your punishment in the bath-room ? A. I was called a dunm convict. ' Q. Who called you so? A. Mr. Birockway; and at tihje interview he asked me was my mother a whore and my sister a whore. Q. Did you ever hear profane language from officers oi employes there ? A. From convict officers; eei'tainly. Q. What do you call profane language ? A. Such as saying God damn you son of a bitch. Q. Do yoiu regard " damn " as proflaaiilty? A. Gkvd dammi, I dlo, Q. You don't simply damn ? A. Yes, sir; I do in a vulgar way; when used in the way a man meanis. Q. Addressed to convicts ? A. Yes, sir; when, you are in lin.< and not closed up properly; " damn you, dose up tiiere." By Mr. Craig: Q. What work are you doing here ? A. I am instructor in. one of the waist factories. 43Y Q. Hare you ever been pxinished isince you have been here ? A. No, sir; I have a perfect record; I have never been reported to my knowledge. John Stephen Ryan: Mr. Oraig. — Before you are sworn, I want to say to you that the njanagers of the reformatory have passed a resolution tiiat no convict transjferred to this prison will be returned to the reforma- toy withouit his consent or requfest. If you teistity here under oath you are subject to all the patnis and penalties prescribed by statute for false swearing. The witness was then sworn. Ejcamilnied by Judjgie GrilbeUt: Q. Have you been in the Ehnira refonmatory ? A. Yes, sar. Q. When were you sent there ? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety. Q. Where from ? A. Utica, Q. What for ? A. Larceny, second de^ee. Q. Who sent you there, what judge ? A. I do not know the judge's name. Q. How long did you remain, there ? A. A little over nine- teen months; 1 went to Ehnira December ISth, and left Elmira July 19, 1892. Q. Transferred! to Olinton prison? A. Ye®, sir. Q. While in Elmilna wterie yotui poinisihieid for anything? A. Yes, stir. Q. How? A. Punislheid by paddle. Q. State the paaitliiciuljairisi? A. I dotrft undjerstend what you meaiL Q. State what it was fou? A. It was fbr pundhimg a lieuteniaM; an opoer. Q. Whait do yoiu mieani by " punching?" A. Hitting him wiith my fist I Q. Why did you sitrike him? A. I wais going out ooa tihe bucket grourads and he says, " G-et in stiep," ajidl give me a Mck in the shins, laind w'hen I came onit he foUowedl mie up, I dom't kmow whJetiher he was going to kick me or what he was gioiog to do, ajnd I turned arounid and punched him. Q. State whkt oocuirried from thiatt? A. I was tlakein from thepe to the guiaipd^room floor, in froertJ of Bryian^ anid he told them to take me down' and chaJk me in, and I was taifcen down and chialkied in, and laid in my deU unitil Monday noon amid then I was taKen to the baith-room and was punished by Biiookway. ;438 Q. How were you jmnMied? A. WiLen I first weniti in ijbjeire he asked me where I was bom — no; h.e sayisi, "You are a Utica txxugh;" I says, "No, sir;" I says, "I was iboimi itu WaiterviUe, Omedida. county ;" tilien hje told me to take off my clothes and go^ over to the wall and stand up to the waJl ; I stanted to go OTesr and take off my clothes when Mr. Winnie punched me in the eye. Q. Struck you in the eye? A. Yes, sii"; wiith his fl.isit; .then Mr. Brockway, after I had taken off my clothes, punished me. Q. How many blows? A. Sixteen^ as near as I could recollect. Q. Wheneabouts did he strike you? A. Most of it was across the small of the back. Q. On what other portion of youm person did he strike you? A. My cheeks right below that about, and two over the head. Q. What were you doing when he sitruck you orrer the head? A. I stood up to the waU and he struck me eight tdmies first, and stopped and I thought he had got through with me; I took down my hands and turned around! and with that he belted me over the head and says, " Go back there;" and' I got back there and' he giye me more. Q. What were you doing when he struck yoox over the head the second time? A. He istruck me succeeding blows over the hea,d, one right after the other. Q. Did you receive any other puniislhmenit on thiaJt oooasiom in the bath-room? A. On the same charge do you mean? Q. At that time did you recediYe amy oithefp pundshmemt than what you have sitated? A. Only when I got back, he punished me again. Q. On ithat day at that time? A. No, siia-. Q. Did the .blows leave any marks upon your head or your back? A. They did at the present time. Q. At that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. What marks w^e left upon you? A. Black and blue, red. Q. Where? A. Across the amiaU of my back and beloW it* was all red. Q. Any blood run? A. No, sir; I didn't see no bloodl Q. Leave any miarks ujMJn your head or face? A. Yes, sir; black eye. Q. Which eye? A. My light eye. Q. Leave any marks upom your head? A. No, sir. Q. Was that mark about the eye caused by the strap? A. No, sdip; it wann't. Q. What was it? A. Caused by Mr. Winnie's fist. Q. Did the strap leave any marks upon your face or head? A. Yesi, sir; it did; jusit the butt of it struck over here left a little miark; juist the tip of it came right around and struck me there. 439 Q. Do you fcnioiw what Witanie's niaimie wasi? A. AH I ever hieaind him called was Mir. Winnie. Q. What did he do about the reformatory? A. He was prin-' cipal keeper there. Q. Who was pireiseiit when these blows were struck? A. Mr. Winnie, Mr. Halpin and Mir. Sample, and Mr. Bi^ckway. Q. Who waia present when Mr. Winnie struck you in the eye? A. JVIr. Brockway, iMr. Sample and Mr. Halpin. Q. What had you been doing or saying when Winnie struck you in the eye? A. I wasn't doing nothing; I was' probably slow in getting o£E my clothes; I was walking over to the window; I may not have walked as fast as they wished; Halpin wasi going to step up behind me, and Winnie says : " iNever mind, I will help hua off with them; " and he hauled off aind struck me in the eye. Q. Were you strung up? A. 'No, sir. Q. Were you punished any other time? A Yesi, sir, Q. When? A. I was punished; I can't exactly tell you the month, but I can tell you as niear as I can to it, the date; I can tell you the first punishment and the last, the date; I was pun- ished four times while I was there. Q. What were you punished for the second time? A. My task. Q. What work were you at? A. Molding. Q. How old were you then? A. I was near 22. Q. AVhen you were sent to Elmira? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your task in the reformatory? A. Seventif-flve molds. Q. Seventy-five molds in a day? A. Yes, sir. Q. Of what? A. Caster forks and caster wheels; I was on different patterns. Q. You used to run off seventy-five of those in a day? A. Seventy-five and eigihty. Q. What was the usual task? A. That was the regular task; sometimes we couldn't get iti up. Q. How were you punished upon that occasion? A. I was punished the same way only I wasn'j; struck over the face. Q. How many blows were you struck upon the back? A. About eight or nine. Q. Leave any marks? A. Nothing, only black and red. ' Q. Were you able tlo go to work the next day? A. I went to work the same day. Q. So you are not disabled in any way? A. I am not disabled, only I have pains. Q. You were not disabled by that punishment? A. No, sir. Q. Have you anything further to say in reference to that pun- ishment than what you have stated? A. iNothtng; no, sir. Q. "^fhat were you punished for the third tirme,? A. Task. 440 Q. The same task, faUtire to perfonn the same task? A. Same Q. Punished in the same way? A. Punosihed in the same way. Q. How many blows were you struck that time? A. Abojit six I should think; six or seven. Q. Whiere? A. Acoxxaa tlhJe simiall of my back. Q. Show the committee where? A. Right there (indicating). Mr. Craig. — Is tihat the end of the spine? , Dp. Eaaisom. — Just ajbove the end. Mr. Oaig. — As far up as the spinal cofrd? Dr. Rajisom. — The spinal cord woxdd be a little below that. , Mr. Craig. — What do you say Dr. Wey? Dr. Wey.— That is over thel course otf the spinal cord. Q. Were you struck over tlie head that time? A. No, sir. Q. Struck in the face or anywhere else except upon your back? A. No, &ir; not that tune I wasn't. Q. Any profane languaige used to you by anyone that time? A. No, sir. Q. The fourth time what were you! punished for? A. Task. Q. In the same way? A. lu' the same way. Q. How many blows were you struck that time? A. With the exception. of a blow over the eye by Mr. Brockway. Q. With what ? A. With his fist. Q. What had you been doing that he struck you over tihe eye ? A. I sitood tliere talking to him, trying to explain it to him, about the task, an.d about the way the foundry was going, and he said he had a man for that purpose, and I saw I was goin^ to get punislhed, and I asked liim for mercy; he says, "No; I give you no mercy;" then I says, " God have mercy upon me," and he hit me over the eye with his list; he says, "I will learn you to call," I can't teU you what name he called it, and he says, " Take down your clothes;" and I took down, my clothes and I gOt over to the window. Q. Were you strung up ? A. No, sir. Q. Any marks left upon your person at that time ? A. Yes, sir, black eye, besides mark over my bax?k. Q. For how long a time was there a mark about your eye ? A. About two days. Q. Describe it ? A. Yellow and sort of bluisih. Q. Eye injured tu amy way? A. No^ sir; it is not. Q. (Mr. Craig.) Do you mean your eye or around your eye ? A. Around my eye. Q. Any marlcs upon your back ? A. There are not; no, sir. Q. Any marks a^b the time ? A. There was; yes, sir. Q. What ktud of marks ? A. Eed, from the strap; fronj the width of iiie strap; leave the mark. 441 Q. What did you do wMle in the Elmira refomm'tory besides woTfeing in the foamdry; did you work at any other kind of work ? A. No, sir. Q. While there did you see any of the inmates punished ? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Do you know of any of them being pamashed ? A. I do; yes, sir. Q. Any of them that received wounds or marks from such pun- ishment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is he in the refprjnatory yet ? A. No, sir. Q. Where is he ? A. He was tranisfeirred to Auburn. Q. Whait mairks had he upon him ? A. He had big yellow marks across his back, where the strap was. Q. How do you laiow they were received in the bath-room ?. A I worked next to him, and he show^ them to me and told me. Q. How do you know ? A. I do not know, only what he said and sihowed to me. i Q. Any others ? A. No, sir; that is the only one I know of that carries marks. Q. Do you know of any that acfe here that received punisjunent there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And received marks (jvr bruises ? A. I don't know wheitherx they have the marks or bruises, but they carried the marias through the yard that I seen. Q. Do you know they received them in the bath-room or only know it from what they said ? A. I know* they received it in the bath-room, because I was waiting at the door to go in when they were coming out. ' Q. When you were standing there and saw them come out whart; did you see with reference to marlis upon those that came out ? A. I saw their eye was blacked and their lip was swollen. Q. What inmate was that — can you give his consecutive num- ber ? A. No, sir; I can not; he is here^ Social. Q. Can you describe the marks upon. his face more minutely than you have ? i A. No, sir. Q. Do you know a man by the i^ame of King that was an inmate of the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Know anything about his being punished ? A. 1 do; yes, sir. Q. Were any marks upon Mm ? A. Yes, sir; I have seen them after he left the bath-room, we were both there the same day for punishment; and I seen him in the shop and he showed me the inarka upon his back, it wasn't exactly on his back. 56 442 Q. What were Hie marlcs ? A. Th.e strap, the red and Wacik. Q. Skin broken ? A. No, sir. Q. Just black ? A. Black and red; that is all. Q. TMa officer that you assaulted, was he an imnatfe officer ? A. He was, yes, sir; a lieutenant in the blue sdiit. Q. What is your employmein't here ? A. "NN'orking in the front office. Q. Doing -nhait ? A. Cleaning. Q. Have you been punisted since you have been here ? A. iSo, sij'. , Q. What has your record been since you have l»een bere ? A. I'l'etty good, I think. i Q. So fai- as you know ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your eitiployinent before you were convicted and sent to Elmira ? A. MoMtn,g. Q., Had you ©vei* been convicted of any offense before that ? A. No, sir; I never had a jail shut on me before that. Q. Had you ever been arrested before that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. No conviction ? A. No, sir. ^ Q. Ne\eir had been sent to any penal institution ? A. No, sir; never seen the inside of a jail until this time. Q. Weren't you accused of fraud at an examiinaicion at the rtformatory, deception in your examinatiouis ? A. Not' as I know of; no, sir. Q. Did you have some difficulty over th.at ? A. I don't underatand. Q. Didn't they claim you attempted to deceive the examiner when he was examining you at the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you have some trouble in tbe school or aibout your lussons and about your examinations ? A. I never had no tiouble as far as I know; I didn't get along in school and couldn't ou there ? A. With the handle of the sti'ap. Q. Any othcn- marks upon your person ? A. Yes, sir; on my hand, where he dislocated that bone in my finger. Q. "\Miat mark is it ? \. Don't you see m.y joint out of order ? Q. Any other mark upon your person from braises received v.hile in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir; where he paddled me in the back. Q. ^Y\lo dislocated your finger ? A. Sample: a Tarrytown boy, that ^Ir. Brockway put principal keeper there. Q. How did they do it? A. They jumped on. me. Q. When you were lying down ? A. Yes, sdr ; kicked me in, the ribs all over. Q. Where did thajt occur ? A. In the bath-room. Q. Was it the first time you were taken to the bath-room when you received these injuries ? A. Taken there a few times. Q. State to the committee how that occuri-ed; what there waa about it ? A. When they put me up there to stand up against the window and took my pants down, whea I couldn't stand no 447 more tihey give me a kick and put me dQwn on tlie floor and they ■wonid jump on me; Mr. Brockway would say, "You have got to stand up there, or I will kill you or knock out your brains." Q. When you were placed at the window did you refuse to stand up there ? A. No, sir; I never did. Q. Were you at any time strung up there ? A. Yes, sir; shaekel me up to the window. Q. How ? A. My two hands up against the window. Q. How were your hands fastened to the window ? A. With a pair of haaidoufEs. ' Q. Anything else attached to the handcuffs ? A. A chain. Q. Anything else, any rope ? A. No, sir. Q. While you were standing against the window did you stand on the floor ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. You weren't strung up ? A. No, sir. Q. While you were chained up in that way to the window, how could you fall down on the floor and get kicked ? A. He didn't chain me uip every time I go down there; it is only once out of a hundred he might chain up to the window. Q. Had he chained you up to the window any time beffore that ? A.. Yes, sir; several tiines. Q. Th'affJ day he dhainedl yora up? A. No, sir; he had' aibout thSlrty , or forty to paddle tJuartl day; he had a big ceU row; if he' dldln't paddle you would get a paiir of black eyiesi lanyhow. Q. Upon this Oiccaslon when you weire ttoriowm down state what oocumred ; delscirtibe it in your own way? A. He would jump on me. Q. What had you been doing? A. 'CalMng up in the chapid ; the offlcer uip there reported' I didi talk, but the officer, every ifme yo^i would talk to a man or look to a man next to you you would get a repor't for talking anyhow; they won't take our woird. Q. You were sent tO' thie baith-room on th'art; occasion for talking? A. Chalked in on Sunday morning. Q. When was it yoiu received the punishiment? A. The day after; Monday momihg. ' Q. Can you git^e the day of the month you received that punish- ment? A. I think Dr. Wey was on the guard-noomwfloor then. Q. Do you remember the diarfie yoiu-reielf ; the day of the month? A. No, isir. Q. State what oocurred in the bath-rooml when you were injured as you havB isitaited? A. That is the day they jumped^on me. Q. State the particulaiiisi? A. G-iive me a report for continual talking up in chajpel; it was; in the ethics class. Q. How did they come ta treat you in thie manner they did in the bath-room; what oociunred theme? A. I told you they paddled me and jumped on me and kicked me. M8 Q. What did yom say or do wihjem yon first went in? A. I denied the charge; " Oh get over there," he would stay; kick me; he wouldn't listen to me or anybody else down tihere. Q. When he told yon to get over there, wtaajti did yoiu do? A. Wemit over there amd took down my pamte; then I Ml diown; they put me down there. Q. When you went over to the window to receive the paddling before apy blow was (Struck you went down on the floor, didn't you? A. No; he paddled me; I couldn't stand on my feet any more. i Q. After he had pad'dled you or isltnuiok some blows you then went down on to the flooo"? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Why did yon get down on the floor? A. Coiuldln't stand up thf-re; I can't stand that strap of Brockway. Q. How many blows did he strike before yon went down? A Gave me eight or nine in the kidneys. Q. BefoiPe you went down on the floor blow many did he strike? A. About seven or eight. Q. Whati, if anything, did you siay before you went down on the floor? A. I commenced to holler and cry, " Oh, Mr. Brockway," and he would say, " shut up or I will kill yon," and would jump on me. Q. He don't jump on you before you were down on the floor? X. He don't jump on you; he has two men down there, Sample and that Tajrrytown burglar; they would jump on you, ajnd made me go up against the wall again and told me not to holler; I told him I couldn't stop hoUerdng; he 8a,id he would MH me, amd after he got through paddling he would say, " Go black to the foundry again." Q. On that occasion, when you were standing up to the window were you struck over the head with anything? A. I was all blinded from the stnap. (QuiestikMi ^repeated.) A Yesi, sir; with the strap. Q. How many times were you struck over the head with it? A. Four olr five times. Q. You say that time he struck you four or five times over the head; you don't mean to say that, do you; not upon that occajsion? A. He aJiwayis. Q. Did he on that oocaadon, strike you four or five times over the head when you were down in the? bath-room, sent there because you had got mairksi? A. Yes, sir; every time I go there — Q. I want to know at that time did he strike you five times over the head that particular time? A. Yes, sir. Q. What marks, if ajiy, did it leave on your head? A. He didn't put no marks that time on my head. 449 Q. No marks on your head at that time by the strap? A. No, sir. Q. Were any litarks madej on your body at that time with the strap? A. Yes, sir. i Q. What were they? A. The scar where he hit me with the 'Strap. Q. How many times did he hit you with the strap on the back or bnttoclvs that time? A. About seven or eight times. Q. Did that all occur before ,«" aifter you got down oni the ilooi"? A. That occurred before I went down on the floor. Q. After you got down on tihe floor did you stand up again fit the window and receive ipore blows? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Who placed you s^ the window the siecond time? A. Sam- ple-*, and they pushed me up thiere, or I would go up there myself; carry me up there, and he would jump on me. Q. On that occaision you say you received a blow on the right side of your head? A. Not. that time; didn't mark me with the strap; they kicked me in the head. Q. Whiat occurred at 'tihe time you were kicked on the right side of the head and was struck between the eyesi, and they broke or injured your finger? 'A. I didn't .say he injured my hand that time. Q. You siay in addition to the scars which you have shown you have scars upon your back received from punishment or caused by punishment? A. They might all be erased now; I have been sixteen months here. Q. When you came here to Clinton did you have any mai'ks upcin your body then caused by this punishment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you show them tlo anyone? A. Showed them to the doctor and told him. Q. Where were these marks? A. Right across here. Q. You showed them to the doctor? A. Yes, sir; I came up one day and he examined me up there, and told me I was a tough boy. Q. On otlher occa.sions when you were in the bath-room were you struck over the head with the paddle, or struck by Mr. Brock- way? A. Every time I would go down there to get paddled Mr. Erockway strikes me in the head. Q. Why? A. Because I can^t keep my hands up to the window sill, and when I didn't keep my hands up they would chain me up to the window, and then if I holler he would give it to me in the eyes and all ofver my face. Q. Didn't you, when you were in the bath-room, or on your way to the bath-room, resist the officers? A. Never. Q. Didn't you resist them in the bath-room? A. No, sir; never, 57 450 Q. When you were struck over the head what did you say or do ? A. ^Vhat could I do only holler. Q. ^^'hat did you say ? A. " Oh, Mr. Brockvvay, for God's sake don't hit me ; " he would knock my brains outl if don't shut up. Q. When you turned your head around? A^ He would give it in my eyes then and blind me. Q. Ever leave any marks on your eyes? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you show them to anyone? A. Dr. Wey; didn't I lay in bed one day when you came up tere, and you put your hand on my posterior, and just before Mr. Brockway sent me away you gave me a lecthire in there, and told me to do what was right, and I told you I couldn't do that work, in the foundry? (}. Dr. Wey will probably be examin'od; so you showed these marks to Dr. Wef? A. Yes. Q. Did you show them to any one else ? A. No, sir. Q. At any time did he make black and blue marks around your eyes ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did yon show those to any one ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know any one that saw those marks ? i A. No; not here. Q. It was true you were, quite mischievous ? A. I don't know what you mean. Q. Didn't you occasionally refuse to obey the offlcers ? A. No, sir; I never refused; therei ain't one thing true in that book; I done everything I coidd ; he would kill me if I refused to obey amy orders. Q. Didn't you occasionally have fights with inmates ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you punished for that somattimes ? A. Yes, sir; I vill admit everything that is tme. Q. Is your mother living? A. Noi, sir. Q. Was she living at the time you went in the refonuatoiy? A. No, sir; here is anothei' statement I would like to make; I am sentenced here for five years; take an old criminal sentenced here for five years; he gets a year and five montto short time off of that; why should not T? Judge Gilbert. — - That is a matter for the authoritieBi to answer. A. I would like to have it taken into couisideration ; my con- duct is perfect here. Q. You said you were convicted of burglary in 'the third degi'ee ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were guilty? A. I was. Q., Had you been convicted of any offense before that? A. No; not in prison. - Q. Had yoii been convicted of any offense? A. I was in jail ten days, five days. Q. ¥o^ what? A. Stealing. Q. Sent there by the court'? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Stealing what? A. One time stealing tobacco^, aniother time for brass. 462 Q. You were in twice? A. Twice. Q. What did you attempt to get the time you committed thie burglary ? A. I was looldng for money. Q. Did you get it ? A. I got a little of it. ' Q. How mucli ? A. 1 didn't count it ; didn't have time. Q. It was taken from you before you could count it ? A. It was. Q. Anyone with you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. They arrested, too ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How old were you when you committed the burglary ? A. SeTenteen. I <^. Who were those men ? A. Traver gave his name as Burke. Q. They both sent to the reformatory ? A. Traver was sen- tenced to the house of refuge; he was younger than me. Q. Had you ever been arrested for fighting ? A. No, sir. Q. Never been convicted of any other offences than those you have stated ? A. That is all. Q. Were you arrested in Poughlfeepsie for fighting ? A. No> sir. Q. Did you ever see Mr. Brock way strike any other prisoner ? A. No, sir. / Q. Ever see any of the officers or keepers ? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. With their 'fists ? A. With their fists. Q. Ever hear any of them use profane language ? A. Not as I remember of. Mr. White. — Received, September 28, 1889; upper first grade, April 1, 189P; I'educed new second, July 29, 1890; restored lower first, January 1, 1891; to upper first, September 1, 1891; reduced lower first, November 30, 1891; reduced new second, December 24, 1891; paddled, LL blows, December 24, 1891; rest cure, Decem- ber 24 to 28; paddled, L blows. January 16, 1892; Wanstf erred to Clinton prison, June 9, 1892. ^ Mr. Oraig. — That is received, subject to the same terms and conditions as the other records. I want to ask Mr. White whether to any one of these witnesses that have been examined this morn- ing he gave the contents of this record. Mr. White. — No, sir; we made a point not to do it, and no part of it. Augustus Boeder, being duly sworn, and testified: Examined by Mr. Craig: Q. You, with Mr. White, interviewed some witnesses who havt been examined here this morning ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you, to any of these witnesses, show his record, which has been given in evidence, or any part of his record, or tell him 463 what it was ? A. I did not stow the record to anybody; I did not tell anybody what his record was; I think, in one instance, I might have said to men, " You have a very good memory." Q. Was it before he had stated to you what the facts were ? A. No, sir; after he stated; it referred specially, I think, to one man, Mr. Hojxpe was telling about up at Elmira, that some of these men had excellent memories, that they knew dates, Eecess. AFTEENOOlSr SESSION. Jdhn H. Shermiam: ' Mr. Craig. — The manaigens. of the New York State reformatory at Elmira, pasisied a resolution that they wflill mot itake back to the irefoTim'atory lany conivlctsi that have been tir,ainsfer!red here wiithlout the eonisenit of those convicts, so you need not have amy fear, in testifying, but you should remember that you are called upon to tell the truth, amid if you don't (tell the trwtih you are liable to be inidicted and convicted and sient to prtLsom aigam after you arc sent out of prison. The witness was them sworn and testified:: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. EDave you. ever been in the ElmiTia refoirmiaijory? A. Yesi, sir. Q. When werie you sent theire? A. April, 1890. Q. Do you know thte day of the month? A. The third, I think. Q. Prpon w'hat place? A. New York city. Q. What for? A. Burglary, third degree. Q. Wag it true? A. Yes, 'sir. Q. Whait was your age at that time? A. Sixteen. Q. Wharf; had been your employment before you were sent to Elmiriai? A. Tending to a 'boileir a few weeiks before I got arrested'; working in a flat. Q. Oitheps arrestied with, you for the same offense? A. Yes, slir; two. ' Q. Were they convicted? A. Yes, aiir. Q. Did yon plead guSlty? Yes, sir. Q. Did they plead guilty? A. One of them stJood trial. Q. Were thiey younger or older than you? A. Older. Q. Do you know where they were sen!t? A. One to the peni- tentiary and the other to Elmira. Q. Two of you sent toi Elmina? A. Yes. Q. One to the penitentiary? A. Yes, siir. Q. When were you transferred from Ehnka to Clinton? A. June 9, 1892. 464 Q. Were you punisihed when you were in Elmira? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many timse? A. Fire times. Q. Each, time you were paddled? A. Yes', sdjr; five times >I was paddled. Q. How many blows were the most? A. The fliist time he gave me nineteen and three over the face. Q. The next time? A. The next time I got nine. Q. Any over the face? A. No, sir; the next time was in ^fay; I hars^e no recollection of thait; I got a black eye the first time; he paddled me three time in one momith; the month before I came away; the month of May. Q. Was that all? A. That was all; yes, air. Q. You were only struck twice over the head? A. He struck me three times over the head with that strap, tfliat was the first time; in the month of ^lay he gave me a black eye; he punched me; I was down before and he let me go; he made a punch at me and I dodged me head, and he called me a son of la blitch ; he called me a bastard the first time. Q. The first time he paddled you did you resist him or the officers? A. No, sir; I never resisted any of them. Q. When he told you to go to the window and put vour hands up did you do so? A. Yes, sir; I di4 so.^ Q. Why did he paddle you over the head three times? A. Because I turned my head when he spoke to me to answer ham; he asked me would I behave mysteif and I turned around and before I could answer him he gave me three whaicks over the face land told me to keep my head the other way or hie would make me. Q. Did he use profane laingu'age? A. He says, "You bastard, I will make you." Q. Did he leave any mairks upon your face? A. I don't know; r know it was sore; that was lall; he made littie blistere. Q. On your face or on your head ? A. No, sir; only a black eye; that is all. , ' Q. And marlis ujwn your back ? A. No, sir. Q. (Mr. Oaig.) Do you mean the skin was not reddened ? A Yes, sir; it was blue. Q. (Mv. Craig.) No permanent marks ? A. No, sir; not as I know of; I couldn't see them myself. Q. When hie eittruck you in the face did he maike any mairk on your face ? A. He made a black eye. Q. No permanent marks ? A. No, sir. Q. How long did the flesh around your eye remain discolored ? A. A week. Q. Was your eye inflamed during that time ? A. Yes, sir; Mack eye; my eye was all red; water running out of It. 465 Q. How many blowiS did you say he struck you the first time ? A. Nineteen. Q. While he was paddling you did you say anything to him ? A. No, sir. ^ Q. Ask fiim, to stop ? A. I told him I had enough, and would behave myself. Q. Did he stop ? A. No sir. Q. How many blows had he stnick you when you told him you had enough and would behave yourself ? A. One. Q. What did he say in reply ? A. Told me to stay there. Q. Were you at one time while in the reformatory charged with attempt to make a knife; that was in Novem'ber, 1890? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Did you make a knife ? A. Yes, sir; I was making a knife. Q. What for ? A. For personal use, shaiijening lead pencUs and things like thatt Q. You knew it was against the rules of the reformatory to make a knife or instrument of that kind, didn't you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you also charged, in December, 1890, with lying and neglect of work ? A. Does it say there what it was lying for ? Q. No; were you charged with it ? A? I don't remember. Q. Was it claimed you neglected ypur work ? A. I got several reports for neglecting my work; that is what I went in the red suit for the first time. Q. That was true, was it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why did you neglect your work ? A. I didn't neglect, my worlc; what I went into the red suit for was spoiling a piece of brass about the size of your finger; n,ot dove-tailing it right. Q. Did you do that intentionally ? A. No, sir ; I did not. Q. In Januaiy, 1891, were you also aga.in charged with neglect of work ? A. Yes, sir. Q. W^as that true ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In February, 1891, were you charged with fraud, with decep- tion ? A. On examination ? Q. I pr^esume so. A. Yes, sir; that was right. Q. Was that true ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Again, in May, 1891, of telling stories, lying; were you charged with that ? A. Does it say so there ? Q. I am requested to ask you these questions; were you, also, in July, 1891, charged with lying and being insolent to the officer and apparent attempt at licentiousness ? A. I was charged with giving insolence to officers that I know of, but of lying to officers or sending reports back and denying, saying I wasn't talking — Q. (Interrupting.) You were insolent to officers ? A. Yes, sir, 59 466 Q. In September, 1891, you were charged with recewing a knife and again lying, and also v/iHh fighting, wa® thait true? A. Fighting; yes, sir. Q. Fighting with other inmates ? A. Yes, sir; about that knife. Q. On more than one occasion ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you use a knife at that time ? A. No, sir; I was taking the knife away from a man. Q. In October, 1891, did you mieapprop-riate some property, did you take something and put it to yonr own use that belonged to someone else, or that belonged to the reformatory; do you remember being charged! with having done' that? A. No, sir. Q. Or using profane language? A. Ye®, sir. Q. You were charged with that? A. Yes, si!r.. Q. That was true? A. Yes, sir. i Q. WTixai was the language you used? A. I can't exactly tell you the language I used; I remember getting a report for using profane language. I Q. I would like to know what it was? A. I couldn't exactly tell you what it was. Q. Grive it as near as you can recollect? A. I don't know wheth'er it was God daAn it, or damn it, or what it was. Q. It was either one or the other? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know who you were 'addressing at the time you uBed that language? A. No, sir; I don't know the personl who it was; I think it was the instructor, Mr. Wiseleader. Q. Instructor in what? A. Foreman of the brass shop. Q. You worked in the bi'ass sihop? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what is called the trade school clasB? A. I was advanced in pattern making. ' Q. You worked at iha,t as your regular employment? A. Yes, sir. Q. "WhUe engaged in that work you used thiiS profane language to the man that was over you, your instructor? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you heard profane language used by others in the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you heard it used by the keepensi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you heard it used by Mr. Brockway? A. Yes, sir. Q. Grive the language you had heard used by the keepers and officers? A. I have often heard Mr. Wiseleader say God damn that and God damn this and God damn you. Q. Waa that before you were marked for profane language thait you used? A. Yes, sir. Q. What profane language did you hear Mr. Brockway use? A. Called me a son of a bitch and a bastard. Q, Did he use any other language than that? A. No, sir. 467 Q. Thiali is what you call profane language, so far as he is oon- cemed; were you also charged in December, 1891, with creaWiig a disturbance in the prison or reformatory, getting up trouble or isitiajrtiing tirauble; that is, yelling and cirying mat in your room? A. I don''ti recoUeeit it. ' Q. Again in March, 1892, were you charged with misappro^ priation of property, something thait didn't belonig to you? A. No, sir. Q. You were notified at different timesi thatl you had been violayting the rules of the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. You received notices frequently of that facti? A. Yes, sir. Q. And that if you didn't change your conduct that you would be taken to room J^o. 4? A. 'No. Q. Or that' you would be put into a lower grade? A. Yes, sir; he only sends jaii two of those before he rediucesi you in a grade, one call and then another or siecond' call. Q. These notices were in writing? A. Yes; type-writtetiu Q. 'Have you any of them? A. No, sir; theyl were taken away fa^ofm me. ■ ; Q. Do you 'remember thie language of any particular one of them? A. When you are in the lower first grade he ssajs: "If you don't get a 9 thisi month I will reduce you to the lower second grade. Q. What grade were you in when youi were transferred? A. Eed suit, second grade. Q. Hoiw long had you beeni in that! grade before you were trams^ f erred? A. About nine months. Q. HJad you been convicted! of any crime befoire you were con- victed of ^e crime for which, you were sent to Elmirai? A. No, sir. , ' Q. You never had been convicted of a&y offense before that? A. "No, sSr. Q. Were you charged wiltih the commissibm of sodomy in the prison? A. They chiarged me with that; there was a man in the water-closeit — there ilsi a isdign generally on the door^ out and in; and the sign was tujmed out, and I went in) the water-closet, and the man was in there; I begged! the man's pardon! what was in theire, and this officer camie down and gave me a chocolate itepoirt for ilfi. ■ Q. This fe an instance in Jimie, 1892? A. I don't know whether it was ini June. Q. With ai man named Freize, 3858, were you charged with improper conduct with him? A. No, isir; I dto't remember it, Q. You were taken to the bath-room seiveral timiesi or requiired to go to the bath-room several tiimesi vIl^^-JOti weire not paddled, 468 but were admonieihyed; isn't ttat true? A. He let me go tSupee or four tiineis. Q. How many tunes do you say you were paddled? A. Fiive taimeg. Q. See, when I call your aibtention to particulair dates if you can speak of any more tSnues; Feibinuajry 19, 1891, reioedived L markis; do you reanemiber that occaeion? A. That! was tiie first time; yes, fisir. i Q. How many miarfes do you slay you received aJt that time? A. Nineteen, and ttaee over the fla,ce. Q. Think a monuent; aire you suire? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Are you positive that upon that occBjsiom you Tieceived nine- teen blows? A. Yes, sir. Q. Thiree of those blows were ovei" the head? A. Yes, sir. Q. So it was nineteen in all? A. Yes, sip. Q. Thait 13, sixteen on your back or buttocks and thiree over. the head? A. Yesi, sir. Q. C5an't you be milstaken? A. I know it; that was the first time I Avas down there; I am positive for I counted them. Q. Again, on April 8, 1892, you received G- marks; how mainy blows did you receive at thajt time? A. Second 'time nine. Q. You say you received nine blows instead of seven; are you positive about that? A. Pretty sure; yesi, sir. Q. Again, on the 19th of April, 1892, you were paddled agiaSin; how many blows did you receive at that time? A. I don't recall that time alt all. Q. Don't you remember you were paddled twice in the month of April, 1892? A. Month of May. Q. Think a moment and' see if you wieiren't paddled twice in the month of April, 1892? A. No; it ^-as the month of May; it was the month before he drafted me. Q. Do you remember the day in May you were paddled? A. I think the eighteenth lamd twentyneighth. * Q. You say you were paddled three tinies in the month of May? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember, being paddled on the 2d day of May, 1892? A. I don't know whether it was the second of eighth. Q. And on that day you reiceived L blowsi; do you remember that? A. Yes, sir; I don't remember the blows. Q. How many were the mosit blowis you received at any one time? A. The first time. Q. How many was the greatesib number you received at any one time after that? A. I think the second time was the worst. Q. The second time you were paddled when you say you received nine blowsi, and after tliat how mamy did you ijeiceivie? A I tihilnk 469 thie next time was six; I know be left me off light; he told me he woiuldi let me off easy. Q. Do you rememfber of the nigM befoire you were tranisf erred of bedmg cibained to la man named Freeze? A.' I wasn't ehained to h.im at all. Q. Were you chained to anyone ? A. Yes, sir. Q. To whom were you chained ? A. To a little fellow; his name was — I forget his name — ■ he hurt his leg in Elmira oni the extension; he went out a short while ago-, couple of months ago; his tame expired. Q. Is he here in the prison ? A. No, sir. * Q. He ia here about the prison ? A. No; he has gone home. I Q. Do you say there was nothing improper that occurred between you and him ? A. No, sir. , Q. Or' between you and Freeze ? A. He was fooling with me; that was the day I was chalked in before I was shackled and ■ chained. Q. Was he an older or a younger man than you ? A. I don't know whether he is older or younger. Q. Was he one of the inmate offjcers ? A. No, sir; a red suit man, the same as myself. Q. Don't you know it was charged or claimed that you were caught in the act of sodomy with this fellow by one of the oflQcers ? A. I wasn't charged with anything; I was taken out of that cell and put in another' cell with a colored boy, and he was put in with a colored fellow. Q. What were the circumstances of the case which you refer to when you say they were caught fooling with you ? A. He was fooling around me with his hands. Q. In what way ? A. In the ordinary way; pulling my privates. Q. You were caught fooling in that way ? A. He was caught fooling with me. Q. Was that the iteason why you were sent from the nef otrmatory to this place ? A. No, sir; I don't think it was; my name was on the list to come here before that occurred. Q. Do you know whether your case was presented to the boaixi of management or not ? A. No sir; I do not. Q. Do you know whether the attention of the board of manage- ment was called to you ? A. No, sir. Q. Or whether they took any actiou, with reference to your case? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. You say you were charged with being insolent to an officer; in what Avay were you insolent ? A. It was an argument at work; we got talldng about work, and said I didn't do it right; I 470 told him I did it the waj he showed me to do it; he said T didn't, and 1 told him. I did. ; Q. Was that all there was of it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way were you marked or i-educed for that ? A. I don't know as I ^^•as I'educed for that. Q. One time it is referred to as fighting with an inmate, wha-t was the trouble ? A. Fighting through a knife; an inmate gave ,me a knife; that was in the black suit; and asked me, would I take the handle and solder the blade; I took the knife and got fighting over it. Q. You claimftg the knife ? A. No, sir; I wanted to take it away from another inmate; I was going to give it to another one of them. Q. What did you propose to do with it ? A. Throw it away first. Q. Didnit propose to keep it ? A. No, sir; I had one. Q. Why did you want to take it a^\ay from him ? A. They were getting in an. argument over it. Q. A fight ? A. Yes, sir; a quarrel. Q. Had the knife been placed in your custody or care ? A Yes ; he handed it to me to fix it. Q. You then working in the brass shop ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you fix it ? A. No, sir. Q. Before you fixed it they got quarreling about it ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. What necessity was there for you mixing in the fight with them ? A. Like a good many other things. Q. You happen.ed to get mixed up in it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I am requested to ask you if you too have been seen by either of these gentlemen with reference to what yon know about the Ebnira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. When "did they siee yon? A. Here the other day. Q. Where? A. Downstairs in the office. Q. I understand it is claimed you were charged with an appar- ent attempt to commit a wrong or attempted licentioiusmess, was tliere anything impi'oper that occurred between yon and any. one of the prisoners there at any time? A. I don't understand that. Q. Being intimate with them improperly? A. No, sir. Q. Buggery, anything of that kind occur between you and the other inmates? A. I don^t understand that at all. Q. Sodomj', do you know what that means? A. No, sir. Q. Yon stated that this mani was interfering with, your piPivate®? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he have his privates out? A. No, sir. Q. Was he interferuig with you? A. Yes, sir. 471 Q. In simply the way you stated? A. Yea, sir. . Q. Was lie a smaller or larger mam thainl you? A. Smaller mau. Q. How was it, he being a smaller man than yon, could take out your privates against your wUl? A Beoailee I went to the bucket to U)S6 the bucket and he got fooling with me there, and I stood up by the door and he unbuttoned my pants and took it out. Mr. White. — Some of , the reports of , this man were missing, sio I couldn't make the record complete. I found that so in a- great many cases^ that some of the reports are missing. Mr. Craig. — You mean the memorandum reports ? Mr. White. — Yes^ sir. Mr. Craig. — Did you find the book records ? Mr. White. — The supplementary record to the conduct ledger. The rejKjrts from which the conduct ledger was made up in a gTeat many cases, in getting the nmrnber of blows struck, you have to go back to those. Mr. Craig. — You haven't any record whatever of some of the occurrences which j'ou were looking after. Mr. White. — No, sir;, we found some i*ecords missing. Mr. Babcock — Do you mean the original records ? Did you, then, go to the record ? Mr. White. — We went to the conduct ledger first. The records on the conduct register are made from those reports, as I undej> stand it; loose memoranda called reports. They contain some information not contained in the register. Mr. Craig. — What was it you found missing ? Mr. White. — Eeports for some of the months. Mr. Craig. — Loose memorandum? Mr. White. — Yes, sir. Mr. Babcock. — Did you go to the conduct record and get what you could there? Mr. White.— Inasmuch as we couldn't get it complete. Mr. Babcock. — Did jou get what you could? Mr. White. — We goti some information from the conduct ledger in the first place and then turned to the reports, and being unable to complete it we let it go. Mr. Babcock. — Did you have 'the conduct record of the last witness who was sworn? Mr. White. — Yes, sir. , Mr. Babcock. — Have you got it there? Mr. White.— No, isir; only a portion of the extracts from it. Mr. Stanchfield. — He was spanked, according to the record, four times. 472 Mr. Craig. — It isn't conclusive; the record' is not infallible. Mr. Stanclifield.— Of course. The Almighty didn't have a 'hand- in it, it was made bj man. Mr. 'Oraag. — The record itself is maxie from original memo- randa which, of course, are legal evidence, if they can be found. Mr. Stanchfleld.^ We can find th-em. Mr. Oaig. — Itl might be five paddlings were true, as testified by the witness, and the record shows only four. Mr. Stanchfleld. — • He gets' the two in the wrong month. Mr. Babcock.— What do you mean, Mr. White, by many reports missing? Mr. White. — I don't know tihe exact number, but I presume in examining maybe all of tiheee cases, I fdund perha,ps twenty reports missing. Mr. Baibcock. — -Is ttwenty different oases or twenty reports in one case? Mr. White. — Maybe two or three reportei in one oafle, and maybe one report in othens, and a number in different caises. Mr. Babcock. — When you missed those you haid a right to go to the conduct register. Mr. White.— I was looking for information that hadn't been copied. Mr. Oraig. — At that timel the number of blows wagn'tl entered in the conduct register. Mr. White. — Eeceived April 12, 1890; reduced January 24, 1891; No. 4, February 19, 1891, L. blows; paddled April 8^ 1892, G blows; April 19, 1892, H blows; Ma,y 2, 1892, L blows. Clinton ' prison, June 9, 1892. George O. Zelia: Mr. Craig. — You are called here to be sworn, and I want to state to you some things. The managers of the State reformatory at Ehnira passed a resolution that the convicts from that reform- atory sent bere wiU not be returned to the reformatory without their consent, so you need not be afraid to testify. There is one thing you ought to bear in mind, and that is for any false swear- ing you are liable to be punished by further imporisonment and punishment by the Divine government, too. Tlie witness was then swo^n, and testified: Examined by .hidge Gilbert: Q. "WTiat is your age ? A.I will be 19 the seventh day of next November. Q. Have you been in the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. TMiere were you sent from ? A. Rome, N. Y. 473 Q. For what offence were you convicted ? A. Larceny. Q. What degree ? A. Second. Q. Were you tried ? A. I plead guilty. Q. Anyone convicted with you ? A. No, sir. Q< What was it that you stole ? A. Jewelry and five dollars; i. couldn't tell the exact articles; I had quite a number of articles. Q. Broke into a building ? A. No, sii; house where I was working; James Sherman, a (Jongi-essmani at the time. (>. When were you transferred- to this prison ? A. July 19, 1892. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any otiher offen.ce ? A- Never. ' ' Q. Were you punished while you were in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir; four times. ^ ii. How ? A. I was punished five jjimes ; spanking four different times, and I was in the solitary once. Q. What were you punished the first time for ? A. Eeports and fighting. Q. Did you have a fight with some of the inmatesi ? A. Yes', sir. Q. How did you come to have a fight ? A. I was coming down the. stairs at night and a man pushed me down the stairs, as it was slippeiy and icy; I rushed out of the line and punched hini once, and I was pulled away by an officer in charge of the line. (i. How I many blows did you 'receive in the bath-room ? A. Q. Who administered them ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. Did you resist the officer ? A. No, sir. Q. Whereabouts were the blows struck ? A. On my thigh and hip. Q. Leave any marks ? A. No, sir. Q. Any other blows strufck ? A. No, sir. Q. Is that all you have to say in reference to that occurrence ? A. Yes, sir. Q. About when was that ? • A. It was in October — December, I think; December or January; I am not sure which., Q. Do you remember the year ? A. Eighteen hundred aud , ninety-one. ' Q. Deoember, 1891, or January, 1892? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you punished again ? A. Must have been some- wheres near March; I couldn't say exactly. Q. What were you punished for that time ? A. Eeportst (.i. In regard to -^hat ? A. Everything; talking, laughing and whatever I happened to get them for; you get so many reports in a monttih; if you get more thjani what he likes hie sieinds you a notice, " I will send you to the bath-room and apply physical 60 474 tT('aimeiit or spank you," and if you lose a mark after tliat he takes you down and spanks you. Q. You got the number of marks under the rules that entMes jou tc a spanking ? A. Yes, sir. , Q. On the second occasion how many blows did you receive ? A. Fourteen. Q. Where ? A. Same as before. Q. EeoeiYe blows upon any other paj:^; of your body ? A. No, sir. Q. Any marks left upon your body from those blows ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you suffer any inconveniiieneie from themi? A. No, sir. Q. When did you receive the thiird punjfehmentt? A. Some time in MJay. Q. Pot what? A. That was for one chocolate report; for telling citizen in charge that I dddn't give la damn whether he gave me a hammer or not; I apologized for it. Q. What did you want with a hammer? A. Wiamibed! to use it in riveting. Q. What employment we're you engaged in then? A. Boat buoldinig. Q. Is boat building a part of the em.plO'yment on which imnates ai'e engaged? A. It is not now; wajs at that time. Q. Boats for sale? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were engaged in constructing those boats? A. Yes, sir; row boats and steam launches. Q. You requested one of the keepers to give you ai hammier? ' A. A main hired there by the moiith. Q. How many blows did you receive ait that time? A. Twenty- three or twentyi-four; I wouldn't say positive which. Q. From whom? A. The siuperintenidiedit. Q. Upon what part of your person? A. I received them all the same place as before, only I got one on the back whiere it left a soar. Q. AH received ui)on the back? A. One on the haiok. Q. And that left a scar? A. Yes, sir. Mr. Oraig. — Show where you mean by the back. (Witness indicates.) Q. Were you struck upon any other pairt of your person? A, No sir. Q. Where were you placed at the time you received those blows? A. At the window. Q. In What manner were you placed at the window? A. My hands upon the window the same as, all the other ttoeel I was down there; looking at the principal keeper; a convict the same 476 as myself; only h.e wias acting as primcdipal keeper; Lewis Halplil,' one of the Tairrytown bunglajTB. Q. Is thiat laU you have to say witlhl referemce to th.at third punisihmient? A. Yes^ sir. Q. The foiirtih.; what was thait for? A. Fou ireportsi, also. Q. Reports in relation to what? A. Everything; talking the same as the isecond. Q. How many blows did you receive that time? A. Six. Q. Upon what part of yorar peirision? A. Same as before. Q. You never received any blows over the head? A. No, sir. Q. Or upon any other part of yoniri person except lajs you stated? A. That is aU. Q. Have you anything further to siay in refereuce to the punish- ment you received? A. No, me. Q. Whiat have you to say in reference toi what you know ; what you saw with reference to othens being iseverely punished? A. I never saw lanything only one mam; I saw one man come out of the bath-poom, and I saw him jumped on after he came out of the bath-room because he was ;haIIoing. • , Q. What was he 'hallodng when he came out? A. Nothing; only halloing from the paani he suffered. Q. Who jumped on him? A. Principal keeper. Q. In the hall? A- Yeisi, isir. Q. What did lie do? A. The man that had him] by the arm ^ threw biim on his back, ^and the principal keeper jumped on his chest; then they picked him up together and carried him. to the solitary; that was Saturday; on Wednesday he w^as fetched out to the armory, and his eyes were all blood shot; that was all the marks I could see. Q. Did you see amy black and blue about the eyes? A. No, sir. Q. What wias ithe name of that person? A. AE I know is negro Adams. Q. He was a colored naan? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where did he work? A. I couldn't isay;. hollow-ware, I think. Q.'Do you know his consecutive number? A. I do not. Q. Who -wa^ the keeper that you refer to? , A. Mr. Wiimie. Q. Was he the one that jumped upon him? A. He was; yes, sir. Q. Was Mr. Brockway present? A. No, sir; he neve* comes ont of the bath-room after he goes in it, until he is through.^ ' Q. Upon these occasions, you' were punished, were others pun- ished at the same time? A. Yes, sir; they were in there and said they were punished. Q. That went with you or 'came away with you? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many each time? A. More sometimes than others; from two to half a dioizen. 476 Q. Was it iieually a certiain tiour in the day when this punish- ment occurred? A. Yes, sir. Q. Alxmt what time in the day did it taJce place? A. Bight away after diuner, after the whistle blew to 'go out to work. Q. Do you know of any punishments' being inflicted of tliia character on Sunday? A. Xo, sir. Q. Do you know anything about profane language being used by the keepers, or offlcere or superintendent? A. Profane lan- guage used by people supposed to be officers, inma.tesi the same as I was. . i Q. Inmate offlcers? A. Yes, sir. Q. By th.e resident officers? A. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Q. Or by the superintendent? A. He usedi a little bad laiQguage to me at the time I was in the bath.-room. . Q. Wliat was the bad language? A. I told him I wouldn't allow anyone to call my mother a bitch.; he says sJie was a bitdh, or I wouldn't be there; that was all the bad language he ever used to me. Q. Were you ever in the solitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a time? A. I went in, I think, on a Wednes- day and come out on a Friday. Q. Why? A. For having a knife that didn't belong tio me. Q. Was it true? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you chained in the isolitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what manner? A. There was a pair of handcuffs the same as was on me when I came here, three links in it; one cuff was chained to a ring on the floor and the other cuff on my arm; the ring was staitionary; I could just rise enough to sit on the bucket. Q. You remained there from Wednesday to Friday? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did the physician visiti you during that time? A. No, sir. Q. Direct what your food should be? A. No, sir. Q. What was your food diu"ing that time? A. Bread and water. Q. When you had that knife did you threaten lio assiault any- one? A. No, sir. Q. Sure? A. Yes, sir. <- Q. While in the prison didn't you threaten to assault the inmates or officers? A. No, sir. Q. Why did you have that knife? A. The knife was used around the boat, and the man that borrowed it was looking for the knife and couldn^t find it; and I picked the knife up in the boat where he left it at noontime; they ordered us all to the bath-room and searched; we all took our clothes off and threw them in a pile; the clothes were all mixed up; we all stood in line; the knife fell out of my sihoe; no one saw it fall out; the 477 mail that stood next to me pointed it out to Wolfe, a lieu'tenant, and he called Mr. Murpiiy's attention to it, and Mr. Mnrphy didn't know it was me that had it, bnt Wolfe said it was me; no one saw it fall out of my, shoe, but they took me on the gua.rd-1'ooin floor and put it off on me; I own up to it I had it. Q. Why did you have it in your shoe? A. I don't know; only to keep it; tha/ti is all the reason I can give. , Q. What kind of a knife was it? A. Two-bladed pocket-knife, ^hite handle. > Q. Ordinary pockei>kniffe? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not isoirt of a dagger? A. No, isir; small knife. Q. What employment were you engaged in? A. Boat building. Q. Did you use a pocket knife oocasiiomally in that work? A. Yes, isir; we had nse for the knives in the shops, .and they kept them in a cupboardi. Q. You did'nt carry knives with you? A. No, sir. Q. You knew it was against the rules to do so? A. Yes, sir; in the Ted isult; the suit I was ta; in the black suit, and blue siiit it was allowed. Q. You knew it was against the. rules? A. Yea, sir. Q. You knew you had istolen that knife? A. Yes, sir. Q. And' was concealing it? A. Yea, isir. Q. And you were punished for it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you at one time court-martialed? A. Yes, sir. Q. What for? A. For firing water off the gallery when the line was passing in the hall, at an officer. Q. Did you do that? A. No, sir. Q. Were you punished for thalt? A. No, sir; I got a report and sent it back; the colonel didWt investigate it; he investigated iihe other man; because it named' he didn't come to see me; he could see the other man without going ont in the wet; 'they called us up and court-martialed us; and they put it in the Summary; the evidence failed to sustain, or somjething like thati, arid the case was acquittal; and that is all we heard about the reports umtil the end of the month; then the superintendent sent us word the report were not cainceledi. anid that we lost six dbllarBi apiece. Q. You were docked six doUaiis apiece for them? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you were struck the twenty-three of twenty-four blows Who were present besides Mr. Brockway? A. Mr. Halpin and Mr. Samplel; thaft is all; I believe. Q. Was Winnie tihere? A. No, sir; I never was paddled under Mr; Wiamiie, although I was biefore hiin in the bath-room; I was- down to the bath-room at least a half dozen times when I didm't get ispiaihked. Q. But aidmlonaBhed? A. Yesi, sir. 478 Q. You receiTied a good many different wajminigB thiat you niuBt do tetter o(P you would be puuidhied? A. Y'eia, sitr. Q. Weren't you punisJied the second time for licentiouis condnjct with a man by the name of Bryan, No. 4580? A. No, sir; we had a report at the same time that was read off to us; we were run before Ool. Hailpin on the day the hollow-ware was on fire, and he sent us to dinner because he was yery busy; the colonel called us up on the guajnd-room floor. Mon- day noon and had us chalked in; we were spanked that after- noon; other reports were read off the sam6 afternoon, and that i(^poi"t was read* off with it. Q. You were accused of that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it true ? A. No, sir. Q. (Mr. Craig.) How much of it wag true; remember now you are imder oath, and you are not talking a® you were talking there: how much of it was true ? A. We were sitting behind tJie boat; I was after coming from upstairs, and this man called me over and asiked me about the fire; I went upstairs to looki o^ei- across the i"oad at the hollow-ware, and the officer jumped off the stand and came and said, " 1 will give you two men a chocolajtie report;" and at noon time h© says^ "These men were sitting behind the boat;" Mr.-Halpin looked at us' and says, "I haven't got time to bother with them now; go on and get your diimer now;'' and that was all that was said until C!olonel Bryan called us up Mondfiy noon, and he read off this charge, and he wanted to know whe^hter it was true, and I told him no, it was false. Q. Did jou have your arms upon this man's person ? A. No, air. Q. Were you at any time admonished in the bath-room to do better when you had been trying to do the best you could ? A. Yes, sir; I was told to do better sometimes when he would let me off without punishment. Q. Were you admonished because you hadn't done your work pTOjierly ? A. No, s.ir; never. Q. "\A'ere you admonished because you hadn't learned your les- sons or performed your duties in school pr-operlv ? A. No, sir. Mr. Craig. — You may show your back. (The witness exhibits his person.) Mr. Craig.— What, in your judgmen.t, Dr. Wey, is that; mark of the paddle. « Dr. Wey. — I couldn't say. Mr. Craig. — It is a mark such as the paddle might leave ? Dr. Wey. — Yes, sir. Mr. Craig.— That the general shape of a mark a paddle might leave ? , ' 479 Dr. Wey. — Yea, sir. Mr. Craig. — Please iiesignate the location of it. Dr. Wey. — In the lumbar region. Mr. Craig. — Over one of the kidneys ? Dr. Wey. — Over a portion of one of the kidneys, left kidney. By Mr. Craig: Q. State how long you have been here since you were trans- ferred ? A. Sixteen monlths. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Have either of these gentlemen talked with you with refer- ence to what you knew about the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Of being punished there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Boeder, this gentleman here ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you teU him what you knew about it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they write it down ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you sign it ? A. ISTo, sir. Q. I am requested to ask you a little more particularly about ""the fight you had; you stated something about a fight with one of the inmates ? A. This fellow named Bernard. I Q. What was the trouble ? A. He pushed me down the draw- ing-class stairs. , , Q. Did you fall ? A. I fell to the bottom of the stairs, because they were all ice, and I couldn't save myself. Q. Did you, slide on your back or how did you fall down ? A. I was on my feet most of the way; I tried to catch the bannisters, but I couldn't. Q. On your back or on your face ? A. On. my feet mostly, but hanging with the arm; my back didn't touch the stairs, although it wais oveir nearly to th.© siJalns; it didm't) fetch me black at all on the sitlaaina. ' ~ Q. Weren't you injured in your back at that time? A. No, sir; not in the least. Q. Didn't you consult the physician there in reference to it? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever show you back after you had been paddled to any person in the prison? A. No, sir. Q. Or coinplain to anyone there with reference 'tlo the sfeverity of the punishment? A. YfeS^, sir. Q. To whom? A. Adams, 2730; he is in this prison now under ntune of John Emiok. Q. He was your roommate at the time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you show your baxik to him? A. I did not; no, sir. 480 Q. Did you speak to him about it? A. Yes, sir. Q. He doesn't know except frwm wliat yoiu said how severe the punishment was? A. lHo, sir. Q. You never showed your back to anyone? A. No^ sir. Q. Did it bleed? A. It did; yes, sir. Q. How do you know ? A. Because I could feel the blood and had my hands on it, and I had cotton on iti besides. Q. For how long a time was your back sore? A. It was sore for quite a speU, because I knocked the scab off once in the shop -when it was getting well. ill-. Oaig. — I would like to ask Dr. Wey whether, in his opinion, tihe mark which he has designated here was made by the paddle or by an injury to the back, falling down the stairs, from the general appearance of that mairk in the first place; isn't the mark such a shape as would be mad^ by the paddle? In the second place, isn't it of a general character made by a paddle rather than an Injury sustained by falling down steps? Dr. Wey. — Corresponds to the outline of a mark that could be made by the paddle. 3Ir. Oaig. — -And that usually is made if made at all? Dr. Wey. — ■ It might be or it might not be. Q. Is it a mark that a paddle would naturally leave? Dr. Wey. — Such a mark ais a paddle could produce. .Mr. Oraig. — Isn't it such a mark as the paddle probably would produce if it made any mark? Dv. Wey. — Y^, sir. Mr. Craig. — Is it such a mark, such as the accident falling downstair.s would probably produce Di'. Wey. — Xo, sir; not in my judgmenf. Judge Gilbert. — We introduce the record which we have here. iir. "\ATiite. — Eeceived October 21, 1890; reduced January 30, 1891; paddled F blows January 29, 1892; H blows February 22, same year; L blows -April second, same year; F blows April 16, same yeai. Transferred to Clinton prison July 19, 1892. Daniel Miller: Mr. Craig. — I wiU say to you the men transferred to this ■ piTSon will not be returned to the reformatory without your con- sent. I desire to impresis upon you that you nmsit not tesitify falsely; if you do you are liable to be imprisoned for it. The witnesis was then swomi and testified: Examined by Judge G-ilbert: Q. Have you been in the Elmiiria reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you sent from? A. Oity of BufEala 481 , Q. Fon wihiait!? A. Grand lajrceoy, eiecoinidl dieginee. Q. Did yoiu plead guoHtty?" A. Yes, eiiin Q. Whiaitl is your age? A. Not quite 19. Q. At the time wheai youi were eient? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wluat hlad been your employmient befoTO you) were sent? A. I ihjad been wKxrkinig for a oonMnaiastLom honisie dritving. Q. Had you ever been competed of any offense before? A. No, siip. Q. Ttuat was your first offense? A. Yea, sir. Q. WMle in tite reformatory were you punMied? A. Yea, sir. Q. How many timiesi? A. Flour ttmea Q. When were you transferred to this placie? A. Ninth day of June, 1892. Q. You were sent wlien to tte reformatory? A. May, 1890. Q. Do you rememlber thJe maximum length, of time you mig'ht be punilsihed for thalt offense? A. I wasi told l^ Mr. Brockwiay five yeara. Q. How many times were you punilslued while in the reforma- tory? A. Four times. ' Q. What were you pumisihed for the fio-st 'tfimie? A For say- ing I would strike an ofSoer at Ud© miliitlary. Q. Why did you siay you would strike an officer? A. He inauKed me flreit. Q. What did he eiay to you ? A. He told me I was a sion of a bitcih. ' Q. What had you been doing? A. I fell down at the time in the morniing. Sunda^jr mominig, going to the bucket yard; it was in the winter; I fell down in front of the armory; he told me to get up; I told him ' I would as soon aa I could pick up my bucket; he called me a sion of a bitch; I told h i m if hie wasn't quite as tall as he was' I would Hmiaish him; thjosle are the words I siaid to him; smash him in the nose. Q. Was he an inmate offloer? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you attempt to istrike him? A. No, sir. Q. What punishment was inflicted? A. I was ipaddled by Mr. Brockway. 1 ' Q. How many blows? A. I don't quite remember the blows; I think it was five or eight. Q. Where did you stand? A. Up against the window, with my hands on top of ;the window siUl. Q. Not shackled in any way? A. No, sir. I Q. Where were you struck? A. Blight acroiss the kidneys. Mr. Oraig. — Dr. Wey, kindly state whether that is below or above the end of the spine. ' Mr. Oradlg.— Yevj near the termaoaartion of the spiinew 61 482 Mp. Oraig. — LilMe aboive. ; Dr. Wey. — Possibly a trifle; as neain as I cmM see tlmjiugih the dotihiiig. i ' Q. Leave any mark on your body? A. I ooiuMni't say whether there is amy mark there now or not; there wene miarks at the time. ' Q. Blood mni? A. Yes, sir. Q. How do you know? A. Because I felt it; felt it in my hand; isaw the blood in my haaid. Q. Were you sttruok upon amy other part of youir peiison!? A. I was stpuck across the fopeheaid. ' Q. On that occasion? A. Yes, eiir. Q. How many times? A. Onoe. , Q. What for? A. Turning my head. Q. Why did you turn your head? A. I couldn^t stand the pain and I turned my head, and he struck me with the paddle across the forehead. Q. Did you say anytthing? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ory during the time? A. I give out a little scream. Q. From pain? A. Yes, sir. / Q. Did you say anythng to Mr. Brockway? A. No, sir. Q. Ask him to stop or anything of that? A. No, sir. Q. Simply cried out with pain? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you turned around your head you say he struck you over tihe head, how many times? A. Onoe. i Q. Leave any mark? A. No, sir. ' Q. Injure you in any particular? A. No, sir. ' Q. Have you anything further to say in referen<}e to what occurred at tihat time particularly? A. In regard to the way 1 was punished? Q. I mean of this particular time, the first time? A. No, sir; not exactly. Q. Can you give the date of tihat first punishment? A. No sir; I could not; it was the latter part of December I remember. Q. What employnient were you engaged in? A. I was work ing at the plastering trade. , Q. Were you a mason by trade? A. No, sir. Q. The second time wbat were you punished for? A. Not hav ing my task finished in the umbrella shop. Q. How many blows did you^ receive that time? A, I couldn'1 say how many blows I received. Q. Why can-'t you say? A. I don't remember how many blowj he gave me. Q. Were you tied up or chained up at that time? A. No, sir. Q. Standing in the same position you did before? A. Yes, sir Q. You don't know hem many blows yon received? A. No, eii 483 Q. Wihepeaboiuts did ke strike you? A. The saiae place lie struck me the flnst time, acroee the kidneys. Q. Did the blood flow? Mr. Stanohfield. — I ask to strike that answer ouitC Mr. Qraig. — ^He saysi the same place he did before. You may strike the description out. Q. Did he Htrike you on aaiy other part of your body? A. No, sir; nod at that time. Q. You don't know w^hether he broke the skin or not? A. The same as the first; black and blue, and the skin was broke and the blood was tiherei < Q. Can you give the date of tfhat? A. No, sir; I conld not. Q. Can yon give about the time? A. It was in January. Q. Do you recollect the mouth? A. I do not. Q. About the montli? A. I do not; I know it was in January. Q. The third punislhment; when did that occur? A. January. Q. Do you remember what day of the month? A. I do not. Q. What was that for? A. For not having my tiask finished. Q. What was your task in the umbrella sihop? A. Twenty- seven unabrellas; sixteen rib nmbfrellas. ' Q. What did you have to do to them? A. Tie t|he tip. Q. The day's work was to tie the tips of sixteen? A. Yeis, sir. Q. How many blows did you receive that time? A. I couldn't say. Q. Upon tihe same part of your body? A. Yes, iSir. Q. Leave any mark? A. I couldn't say whether it left any marks or not; liiere were marks there at tte time I got paddled. Q. Blood run at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive blows upon auy other part of your body? A. No* at that time. Q. Have you anything further to say with reference tio that punishment? A. No, sir. Q. Had your back healed up or got over the second punishment before you received the third ? A. No, sir; it wasi still sore. Q. You were punished three times upon the same part of the body ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The fourth time what .were you punished for then ? A. At that time my task was finisihed, but there was an umbrella taken out. : ' Q. Do you know how that happened ? A. No, sir; it was taken out by some of the men in the shop; I had ray task done. Q. Didn't you have something to do witlh taking out thie umbrella ? A. No, sir; I did not; it was ta^ken out of my work. Q. You were marked for that ? A. Yes, sir. »* Q. And pimielied ? A. Yesi, sir. 484 Q. How many blows did vou receive that time ? A. I couldn't tell how many strokes I received that time. Q. Can't you tell anything about it ? A. No', sir. Q. Did you, upon either of these occasions, faint ? A. The last time I fainted; I received the blow from Mr. Winnie in the face and got struck acrosis' the two eyes with the paddle. Q. How many blows did you receive over the head ? A. i received one. Q. Across the eyes ? A. Right across the eyes. Q. What was the effect upon your eyes ? A. There was noth- ing left on the eye, but there was a lump aloijjgside of the eyel where the end of the paddle struck. Q. The leather part or handle part ? A. The leather part. Q. Leave any mark upon your face or produce any injury to the eye, either of them ? A. Not to the eye, but there wajs a redj spot, a little lump right alongside here at that time. Q. Upon that occaision. you say Winnie struck you? A. He struck me in the mouth; knocked this tooth out here (indicating). Q. Out your mouth amy ? A. No, sir; but there was a little sore left there after I came to myself. \ Q. Was that before or after you received the blow ? A. After Mr. Brockway paddled me. ^ Q. What had you been doing; why did Winnie strike you ? A. I turned around, made a quick move so I could dodge the blowj he struck for my head, and as I done that Mr. Winnie struck me in the face. ; Q. Dodge what blow ? A. Mr. Brockway's. Q. Did Brockway strike more than once at your head with the paddle ? A. No, sir. Q. ^Vas it the time he hit you the blow acrosis the eye you tried to dodge the blow ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Winnie struck you at the same time ? A. Yes, sir; in the mouth. ( Q. What had you been saying or doing at that time ? A. I didn't do anything at that time. Q. Are you sure ? A. Yes, sir; I am pomtive. Q. Was there any other time when you did do something ? A. No, sir; all but the first time I gave out the cry for pain, that is all.. Q. Have you anything further to say with referonce to tha^t punishment ? A. No, ^ir; I have not. Q. Were you punished at any otter time or amy other way ? A. No, sir. Q. Ever confined in the solitary ? A. I never was confined in |)he siolitary; I wia^ iloeked up in my nootuj foirf a day or two after the last time I was paddled. 485 Q. Can you give the diate of the las* puBiihment ? A. I could not; it was in the month, of Januai^; all three in the same mon.th. Q. January, 1891 ? A. Yea, sir. Q. How long was it between the puriisiunentsi ? A. I couldn^t say how long it was; how many days. Q. Did you show your back upon either one of these occasionis to any of tihe inmatesi or any of the officers? A. To my room- mate; Q. Who was your roontmaibe? A. At thati time it was BosSi; then there was another man by the name of Beck., Q. They slaw your baek? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Do you know where they are? A. I coiuldnft say whether they are in Elmira now or whether they are oditl. Q. Who was present when the blow wals sitruck by Winnie and your tooth knocked out? A. Mr. Sample and Mr. Halpin and Brookway himself. Q. Did you show that tooth' tld anyone? A. I didn't notice the tooth was out until I was put in my oeU, because I wats carried to my cell at that time, and aiCter I came to myself. , Q. You siay Winnie hit you in the face; did he knock you down? A. Yes, sir; I fell on the floor. ^ Q. Did you get up yourself? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Who helped you up? A. Mr. Sample and Mr. Halpin. Q What, if anything, wasi done by way of bringing you to? A. No(<|hing done; they carried me ia tlhe ceU and laid me gn the bed. Q. Are you sure? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Didn't you walk yourself? A. No, sir; I didn't walk; they, carried me. Q. Didn't you come to until a/fteir you went ii^to your cell? A. I didn't come to exaxstly untU I came to my cell. Q. How do you know they carried youi there? A. Mr. Halpin told me thait after I came toi; he asked me how I felt; I asked Mm how I came in my cell, and he told me he oatrried me in; I wai^ unconscious. ' Q. Then was the first yotu discovered your tiooth was gome? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you show that to anyone afterwards? A. No, sir; I didn't show it to anybody. Q. Or show] tihe place where the tooth had' been knocked oiuiti? A. No, sir. Q. Did yotU! have anyone with you in your roomi at that time? A. Bobs, the prisoner, was in there. ' Q. Didn't you call his attientioM to it? A. I didn't say any- thing to him abou* it. 486 Q. Ib tliat tte only tootii that is misisiiijg from eillter of your jaws? A. No, sir; ttere are some I hM drawn while I was here; I had tiiree drawn out while I was here. Q. On the otlher side? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you have never had any drawn upon the otiher side? A. No, sir. Q. That missing tooth wais knocked out in the manner you have stated? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you mate a sfcatemenit) to either of these gentlemen with reference to this matter? A. I spoke to the reporter Satur- day, the World reporter. Q. State to him what you' knew in reference to the reformatory ? A. I told him everything in negard to punishment 'tlhat I received there and so on. Q. Did you ever see any others that had been piundshed severely? A. Yes, sir; I have. Q. That you knew were punished — where did you see them? A. There was one man, Johnson, was a colored man; I seem him taken out, but I didn't mention this to the reporter at the time; I didnt think of it; it was a colored man named Johnson; he worked in the foundry; he was talcen tq the bath-room one day, and Mr. Brockway paddled Mm, and after I seen him come out 'tlhey had his head covered with a black coat., and blood was streaming down on the flagging, and they took him up to the solitary. Q. WJiere did you see him? A. In the hall. Q. On his way from the bath-room? A. Yes. Q. Whereabouts in the hall? A. Going from the dormitory down to the solitary; I was working in the hall at that time. Q. How near the door of the bath-room? A. I was away about fifty feet Q. Who was with him? A, Halpin and Mr. Sample took Mm down. Q. Who were the offioens that usually took the inmaieisi to the baith-room for tMs punislhmient? A, There used to be two and sometimes one; Mir. Halpin or Mr. Sample; they usually took them from the cell to the taaith-room. ' Q. Where did they take this man to? A. Toi the solitary. Q. Did you see Mm afterwards in the solitary? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know what became of him? A. I do not. Q. When was that? A. I couldn't remember the date; I tMnk it was in 1891. Q. Caai't you give the month? A. I could not Q. Any one with you when you isiaw thatt? A. There were men working around the h^U, but there was noiblody around' me. ' , 487 Qr DM you htear anyti^g aaadi bietween th!e officerisl and thJIs fellow? A. I did not. Q. BDoiw do you know tike blood wasl runminig? A. I saw it dinop dtown on thje flag tram Ms liead thTOuigh. the coaitl. Q. DM hie eay anytthing at all? A. Not that I heard. Q. Do yoiu know where Johnson isi? A. I couidin't my; I thMk he goit drafted to Auburn if I am noti miilsitakeini; I was drafted before hej I know I left him there; I think he must have got drafted .after' I left there. Q. Did you eTer tell anyone abouit losing you tooth in the manner you have stated until you told it to thigi gentleonien^ Mr. Boedeff!? A. No, me. Q. Haive you talked with Mr. Eofederi molne than onoe about it? A. No, isor; Saturday was the flnst tiimjel I talked! to ihiim' about it. Q. You ujever was istnick by.Mr. Brockway with his fl'St? A, No, sir. V I Q. ETer hear any parofanie langulage. there? A. Yeis^ sir; the fliBiti timie I wais up there for am interview I was oaMed up there for biiim .and he asked me whether my folksi were decent or fast; I told ^jlnii my folks wiene .diecient; he askedl me againi, " Haive you goitj a fiiisteP?" I says, " Yes;" sayH he, " Is she fast?" I told him, no, isir; he told me to look in hisi face; I looked him ini thie face, and he isaid^ " You are a God damned Mlair." Q. Who was piresient when he usiedi that language? A. Two or three deirkis in the offiice. Q. Can you name any of them? A. I don't remember whether I do know the names or not; it is ao lonig agoi now. Q. Was it in the offlioe or In the ex'amSnaition-room where Mr. Brockway examineis the inmates when they first comie there? A. It was at the guard-room floor in the clerk's office; all the clerks are around. Q. ThatJ was the fliBt day you got there? A. Yes, sin; fltrist day. Q. What are you employed at hene? A. I am working in the ' laundry; in' the ishippSng departmenit. Q. Have you- ever been punished slinoe youi have (been here? A. No, sir; I have la perfect recotnd here. Mr. OraLg. — It appeans that the tooth he says was knocked out is in fa«ot gone. Dr. Wey, Is there any method of determining whether it was taken out by a dientislt oir whetther. it was knocked out from' the appeariaipoe of it? Dr. Wey. — If it had been taken out by a dentiist, the tooth in its entireiy- should have been removed. If it wasi taiken out as the nesult of violence a poartion of the root might have been left behind. CEhe doctor examiniea) The tooithi hasi been broken off; la portion of the root remiainsi. I . 488 Mr. Onajg. — In comnieoitioini with, the gieneiiiaJl sitjaifcemeiniti you made is yoiur answer tio ihe queSttoin. Dr. Wey. — It might have been broken off inl vairioiuisi ways; I couldn't tlelL Mr. Gnaig. — Your infenenice is it wasax'* dirawni by a dentist. Dr. Wey. — No, sir; I should not think so. Mr. Oraig. — But was broken off by some violence, probably from some source. i Dr. Wey. — By some process. Mr. White. — Eeceived May 5, 1890; second grade, December 1, 1890; paddled, December 29, 1890, H blows; paddled, January 13, 1891, H blows; paddled, January 16, 1891, F blowsi; paddled, Januarj- 21, 1891, F blows. Advanced to lower first grade, April 1, 1891; reduced to second, February 1, 1892. Transferred to Clinton prison, June 9, 1892. Jacob Lipman: The same statement was made to this witnese by the chaii^ man as to the former witnesses. The witness was then sworn and testified: Examined by Mr. Oraig: Q. What is your age ? A. I will be 21 this February fifth. Q. Have you ever been in the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yea, ear. Q. Where were you sent from ? A. New York city. Q. What for ? A. Burglary in the second. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. 1 didn.'t plead guilty at first, but I did afterwards. Q. You didn't have any trial ? A. I had a trial, but I didnU have it before a jury. i Q. What was it that you took ? A. I went into a fan-light, through a transom, into a store. Q. What did you get ? A. I didn't get anything. Q. You were caught before you got out ? A. I got out. Q. Were any others with you ? A. No, sir. Q. You were the only one ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your age then ? A. I gave 19; I wasD.'t quite 19; within two months of 19 years. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. November 3 1890. ' Q. When were you sent to this case ? A. Jidy 19, 1892. Q. Wbat nationality are you ? A. An American, but German descent. Q. Your parents are Germans ? A. Ye®, sir. 489 Q. WMle in the reformatory at Elmtra have you been pun- ished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. By being paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times ? A. I couldn't quite tell you; I don't know. Q. About how many ? A. I don't want to, make a guess and make a false guess. , Q. Hi0w mlany toimeis do yoiu reicoilect or know in all? A. I can recollect at least ten times; it is a good deal more tlian ttat. , Q. Wbat did you do while you were in the reformatory; wliat employment were you engaged at ? A. When I first caine there I was half a day in the tailor shop, and in the oflce half a da^, and then I was put in the tailor shop all day; I wafi there nine months, when I was put in the gymnasiium; I was in. the gymna- sium, I guees, eight months; I ain't quite certain how long I was there; then from there, when I got out of the gymnasituni I was put back in the taUor shop. Q. What do yon claim with reference to your being seTerely punished while you were there; state what occurred the first time you were punished ? A. When I first came there I wasi put in the awkward squad for half a day. Q. When did you first receive blows upon yom^ person othei' than upon your buttock or back ? A. I received a blow in the eye. Q. Given by whom ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. Where were you ? A. In what we call the bath-room. Q- What had you been doing in the bath-room that caused him to strike you in the eye ? A. He claims I turned around, and he says, " That is just what you do in the shop;" that is as much as to isiay, gazing about the shop; if a man turned around he would alwla^ns sibrikie him itn the faoei or eye, wherever he could get him. Q. On this occasion did he strike you with the paddle ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Struck you once over the eye ? A. Yes, adr; struck me more than once over the head, but I had reference to the eye. Q. Upon that occasion did he strike you aver the head ? A. I can't very weU say; it is nearly three years now. Q. What was the effect upon your eyes ? A. G-ave me a big black and blue eye. Q. Was that eye inflamed afterwards ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who was pnesiemt at the tmne? A. Mr. Wiminie and lAeuten- ant-Colonel Halpin, and I don't remember who the keepers! were. Q. Did it cut your face at that time in any way ? A. Didn't make my face bleed, but my eye. 62 490 Q. Did it cut your eye ? A. I understand there is a scar theire yet from It. Mfp. Babcock. — Thiait we object to, and aisk toi have it itaikem out. Q. Was the eye cut at that time ? A. Yes, sir; it was cut and was bleeding. Q. Is there a scar there now ? A. Yes, sir; a slight scar. Q. Show it to the committee. Mr. Craig. — Show it to Dr. Wey. (The witness shows the scar to Dr. Wey.) Dr. Wey. — All I can see, Mr. Chairman, is a vein there that is somewhat large. There is no efvidence it has been out any time. Mr. Craig. — No other evidence ? In your opinion might that be the result of a blow ? Dr. Wey. — I should say not; no, sir. Q. Did you, upon any other occasion, receive other blows upon your person than those upon your back ? A. No, sir; not that I know of; he made an attempt to strike me a couple of times, but he didn't get there; he put me up against the wall and started 'to paddle me again; he would stand on my foot; I would make an attempt to get away, and he would stand on my foot and hold me by the neck and would strike out, put out with his fist, buit he didn't strike me. Q. Were you ever chained up to the window ? A. No, sir. Q. Or tied up in any way ? A. No, sir. Q. Simply told to stand up ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know how many blows usually were given to you when you were standing up in that way ? A. I couldn't very well say; I don't want to exaggerate the case, don't want to put it any lower; I don't want to say I received twenty-two or twenty- three blows when I didn.'t; I can simply say I don't know how many blows I got ; as much as twenty, though, I think. Q. At one time ? A. Yes, sir. < Q. What, if anything, did you say while he was punishing you with reference to stopping or appealing for mercy ? A. During the time that I was receiving blows on the back; that was the first time I was down there, November twenity-fifth; I said, "Mr. Brocbway, please have mercy on me;" I got down on my knees and prayed for mercy; he says, "No; I will not have any meroy for you; this isn't time to look for mercy; you should have looked for mercy before you came down here." Q. Were you ever in the rest-cure? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you show your back to anyone after you had been in the bath-Toom? A. I showed it to several persons when I was in the gymnasium. Q. Did the blood run from' yOur back a* any time from theee punishments? A. No, sir; they looked to be ouitB or scratdhies 491 like; there was blood there at that scratch, but I doirft say it ran down as if you were to take a knife and stick it iH' a man's arm. Q. Did he strike yooi aoroiSB thai bnttocte? A. I was struck right aronnd here and up here. i Q. Do you think there are emy marks there now? A. No, sir; I 4o not think. Mr. Qradg. — ^Put your finger oni the upper part and Dr. Wey . will say where it is. Dr. Wey. — Both on the buttocks. The witness. — Mr. Brookway hadi a way of striking; he would stiike.one across there and amother across there, and by the time he came to the third or fouri;h stiroke it would siwell up, aad it would come crossways, and it would ou't it krad of, and paiu terribly. Q. Did he soak the paddle every time? A. Not every time, but; soak it and after a while if it got kind of dry he would ^ak it again. Q. Every time he pad'dled you? A. Yes, sir; every time. Q. Did you see others punished? A. I dida't see them in the bath-room, but I saw them coming out getting punished, and while I was in the gymnasium; I yas in the gymnasium for nearly eight months; aod I saw a young man by the name of Block. Q. Where isi he now? A. I think he is in the reformatory; I don^t know whether he is there yet; he might have went home. Q. What did you see in reference to him? A. He was kind of clumsy; he tried to do it the best he could. 1-, Q. Whart do you know with reference 'to other inmates being severely punished in the bath-room? A. I don't know, of any being severely punished in the bath-room; I only know what I seen when they camei out; I have seen inmates with their backs livid; that they have showed me; and kind of reddish, but I didn't see them get paddled, because I wasn't in there. Q. You say you were in the rest-cure; how long were you there? A. About ten days. Q. When you came out what was your condition? A. I was in v6ry poor condition; I coulda'* pull my weight up on the rings of the bars, but when I gained my strength back; I was put in there to gain my strength. • Q. What were you put ini there for? A. For reports. Q. Were you ever chainedi in the cell ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in the hospital? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever convicted of any crime before you were sent to Elmira? A. I was put on Blaokwell's Island; twice for fight- ing, and once for.stealinlg a roll of clolth. I Q. Ever convicted of anything else? A. No, sir. Q. Did you tell Mr. Brockway that? A. Yes, sir. Q. That you had been convicted? A. I told him about that roll of cloth. Q. Did you tell Tiim while you were in the reformatoiy you had been convicted of these offeniaes? A. Yes^ sir; I aint quite sure about fighting, but I am quite sure about the roll of cloth and the once fighting. Q. While you were in the refoinnatory don't you know very many times you violated the rules of the reformatory, commit- ting acts which were regarded as offenses agadnisit the rules? A. If I deserved reporta they were against the. rules, but I didn't deserve half of them; half of them were put against me for malice, charges that I didn't deserve. Q. Weren't you accused of violating the rules very often? A. I was accused of them. Q. Accusations as high as forty, fifty and sixty a mon'th? A. I don't know; I never counted them. Q. It is true you did very often violate the rules and did it knowingly? A. I done it knotwingiy, but not with an intention; I didn't mean to do it; it was done in a way I couldn't help myself; I don't deny that I talked when I hadn-'t ought to talk, once in a while, but I deny I deserved all those reports; I have denied reports, and every time I denied a report I got a chocolate report; I never had what you might call an investigation. Q. Were many a^ these reports made against you because you didn't do your work properly or made mistakes in your work? A. No, sir. Q. What was your employment there? A. In the tailor-shop; I was charged with losing aJ knife; I loaned a knife of an officer on the stand, and while working with it it accidentally slipped out of my hand, and it went under, kind of slid under the boai^i; I asked permission to get the knife and he says no; then I asked permission to talk and he said no; afterwards I went over and talked to the monitor, and told him my knife was under there, that I dropped it out, but I could get it, and he wouldn't allow me to get the knife, and the next day he was sick and laid in his cell, and while he was in his cell I went and got the knife, and thra-e was another monitor at the'stand, and I gave the knife to him, and in the meantime I sent back the report, because I didn't lose the knife, I dropped it, but I wasn't allowed to get it; Colonel Bryan came and investigated the report and I told him I found the knife and I returned it; in the meantime I returned that knife again and went and used* it, and I took it back and give it back againi. 493 Q. You mean borrowed it from tbe man? A. I borrowed it from the next man that wae on the stand doing dnty, and' I took that knife and nsed it, and give it to him; afterwards, when Colonel Bryan came to inves'tigate the report, I told C!olonel Bryan how it was; this gentleman sayis I gave him the knife the; first time, but I didn't give it to him the secondl time; he says, " Give him a yellow report for losing the knife again; " that was two yellow reports for losing the same knife; 'that was against me on the books. Q. Whom did you loan this knife to? A. I loaned it from an inmate officer; he was on. duty on the stand; we wasn't allowed to have any knife; I wasi in the red suiti, and he was allowed to loan us a knife, proyided we used it in the work; when the colonel came to investigate it he told him to give me another yellow repoi't; I aint quite sure whether I got a chocolate report for denying that knife; I think I did, .but I aint quite sure. By Mr. Craig: Q. What is your work here? A. Finishing socks. Q. Do you do your work every day? A. Yes. Q. Have you ever been punished here? A. I was punished once; they claimed' I was stealing socks; I was put in the cooler. Q. How long were you kept there? A. Abouti thirty hours. Q. Have you ever been punished any other time? A. I lost time, five days, for passing a book. Q. Ajiy other way? A. No, sir. Q. Did the surgeon come to see you? A. Yes, sir. Q. What food did you have in the cooler? A. I guess it was about a gill of water and a slice of bread once a day. Q. Were you chained in the cooler? A. No, sir. Q. These reports that were made against you, were they made mainly by the inmate officers and monitors? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weiren't you ohaiPged with talking at examinatiOnis and lying lamid writing improper notes? A. I don't know as the note was imiproper. Q. Weren't you charged wiith that kind of conduct? A. I was chaaiged once; I don't remiember the time though; I don't say I was charged with that examlmaition; I am only saying the note. Q. Weren't you chairged wilth talking lait examdmiationis? A. I was charged with talking. Q. And also using bofeiterous language? A. I was charged with iit. Q. And also chlairgedl witttn disordteirly condiuic*? A. I was dhlargeid! with! itii Q. Anldl also charged with using tobacco? A. Yes, sir. 494 Q. Yoa knew tihat was against thle rules? A. I doDi't admit I committed all your ctiargesi; I admit I was dhiarged witli thiem, Q. Wiere you guilty of boisterous conduct? A. No^ sir. Q. Didn't you talk at the examinatajomsi, ertJo.? A. No, sir; I did not talk at the examimlaition. Q. Did you use tobacco? A. Yes, sir. Q. You know that was against thie miles? A. I know it; yes, sir. Q. Wesren't you. also olia»rged with using rulgar language? A. Yes, sir. Q. And profane languiage? A. Yes; I was chiarged with it. Q. Did you heaa- profanie lamgnaige used by tine officers? A. Yes, sir; I have often heard it used; I have hleard it used against myself. • Q. By inmate officers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Ever hear it used by citizen officers? A. No, siir; not as I remember. ' Q. Hear it used by inmate offioers in the priesenice of the citizen offioers? A. No, sir. Q. Or in the presence of the superintendent? A. No, sir; I did nolU Q. Ever hear the snperintendenit use profane language? A, I did not; no, sir. Q. Wenen'it you taken to the bath-room a good many tunes when you were not punished, only admxMiisihed? A. Yes, sir. Q. DidnTt you get as many as thirty written notices thajt you must do better? A. I domt remembier the count of them; I didn't count them; I didn't keep any track of themi but I know I got notices. Q. A good many of them? A. Yesi, A. Mr. White. — Received) Noivemiber 3, 1899. Rednoed to second grade Novemibeir 25, 1890. Paddled Novemibier 25, 1890, K. blows. Paddled April 25, 1891, E. blows. June twenty-foiurth^, same yeaj", L. Mows. August tenth, same year, H. blows. Eest cure, bread and water, August twenty-seventh to September seventh. Paddiled D. blows, May 28. 1892. Transferred' to Clinton prison July 19, 1892. Adjourned to Wednesday, Novemben 1, 1893, 8.30, a m. Wednesday, November 1, 1893, 8.30 a. m. Mr. Craig. — Judge Cilbert, with your concurrence I wiU sus- pend the examination of prisoners and call two witnesses of my own motion. 495 Judge Gilbert. — All right. Edward J. McKenna, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Mr. Craig: Q. What was your former residence ? A. Troy. Q. What was your occupattion there ? A. Detective and police captain. Q. How long were you police captain ? A. Abo^t eighteem yeans. Q. Down to what time ? A. About two yearsi ago. Q. Then what occupalion. did you come to ? A. Principal keseper. Q. Of thisi prison ? A. Yes. Q. You have been principal keeper of Clinton prison since that time ? A. Yes. ^ Q. Is the discipline of the prison administered through you ais principal keeper ? A. It is; yes, ^r. Q. What forms of corporal punishment, if any, have you iu Clinton prison ? A. Nothing but the dark cells and screen cells. Q. Do you have any paddling here ? A. No, sir. Q. Or spanking ? A. No, siir. Q. Or punishment by blows ? A. Only in self-defense. Q. Any hanging up ? A. No. Q. You say blows in self-defense, please explain ? A. Ait times we find some very unruly prisoners that won't allow vis to change from cell to cell or go to the dark cells^ or won't allow us to search them, when we attempt to do it, and they sifcrike us. Q. Then what do you do ? A. Defend ourselves. ,Q. You administer blows in response to their blows ? A. Yes, sir. i Q. Have you ever administered blows in response to their refusal to obey to go from cell to cell ? A. No, sir. Q. Aa I understlamd, i* isi absolutely in seU-defensie? A. It is. ■ Q. And that only ? A. That only. Q. Please explain the dark cell ? A. A cell without any furni- ture, or bedding, or light. Q. A closed door which shuts out the light ? A. An iron wickeit door and solid wooden door. Q. Is it'ventilated ? A. It is, thoroughly. Q. What is the punishment in that cell ? A. Bread and water. Q. Subject to the order of the physician.; how often does the physician visit ? A. He visits twice daily. Q. What is the longest time a man is confined in the dark ceil ? A. Two or three days and nights. Q. Never more than that ? A. No, sir. 496 Q. How many do you average a week ? A. Some weeks we don't have any; others, four or five; maybe the average would be four. Q. Four convicts a week ? A. Four oontoemenits. Q. Out oif hiow mainy conwicitsi ini the priisom? A. Up to last month we had .1,080 odd, now we have 969. Q. Explain what the screen cells are ? A. Similar to the dark cell, but has perforated doors. Q. Screen doors into a solid door ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is the punishment the same inside ? A. The same. Q. Without bedding or bed ? A. Yes. Q. Same food ? A. Same food. I Q. How often does the physician visit them ? A. Twice daily. Q. What is the longest, time prisoners are confined in the screen cell ? A. Sometimes a week. Q. That the longest time ? A. Yes. Q. How many on an average are confined a week there ? A. Not over one weekly; one or two; along in that neighborhood. Q. Do you have transfers from Sing Sing prison here? A Yes, sir; quite a number. Q. What is the character of those prisoners? A. The majority of them are pretty bad people. Q. Do you understand they are selected from the most hardened , or incorrigible? A. I know they ^e; that is whaJb I would do if I was sending people away from here; I would get. rid of the bad ones; I don't blame them for sending them at all. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. If you have a convict who refuses to obey orders, you wish to make him go from one side of the room to the other, how many sti'ong men do you require to saibdue the average convict? A. We nevei' had a case of that kind. Q. Would it be necessary to take such a man and tlhrow him on the floor, for instance, if you wished to have him put hands on the window-ledge, and he refused' to do so, would it be neces- sary to throw him on the floor? A. It wouldn't be necessary. Q. How many able-bodied men would it take to make him jmt his hands on the window and shackle him? A. That I couldn't answer. Q. Hi you wished him to put his hands on the window4edge and shackle him to one of those bars, would it take about fou'- or six men? A. It is pretty hard to force a person's hands aroiund the bars when he don't -nish to place them there; a small fellow would give two or three men work to place his hands. Q. How would yoii proceed to subdue him in thaA case? A. Different ways; I think the nices* way isi a> little chain or little 497 string on his hiands, yon' won't have tO' use amy violence; weiaye at times people run away, start aoidi run and won't go to tteir cell; any gentleman here could bring him right along with a little chain on his wrist. By Mr. Babcotek: Q. Is the screen-door you speak of made oflf wood? A. Wooden frame with a sheet-ironi center perforated. Q. If you place a prisoner in confinement there doi you retain him until he is willing to conform toi the requirement? A. Not at all times; I go to him and talk with him; show him how foolish they are to peroist in remaining there, and often I 'take him out. Q. Before they have yielded? A. Ye®, sir; before they are wUh ing to come out. Q. Do yoT.1 put them back again? A. No, sir; put 'them in their own cell, keep them locked there for a few days until they come to their senses. Q. You keep them, in confinement until they do? A. Yes; keep them in their own cell, but fed regularly; have the same food as the other prisoners; some of them that ai'e quite obstinate would remain there tWo or three weeks, if you would allow them to do it. By Mr. Craig: Q. You find a change from the severe regimen of the dark oeU to confinement in their own cell with the ordinary food according , to the ordinary diet table is salutary? A. Not necessarily so, a great deal in the way you talk to people; a great many of those men have never heard kind words; nob^'dy to advise or talk with them; I often go and talk with them in the dark cell, show how foolish they are, how nicely we would treat 'them if we were , allowed to do it, and take them to their cells in' a day or two; some we had here when I first came, bad men, are now good men; some yo'ti can rule with kindness, others you can't; you have to know your men pretty well before you deal with them; have a little kindness with the men, you can get more out of them than you can by cruelty; with others it is quite the reverse. By Mr. Babcock: Q. How long since corporal punishment has been abolished ? A. There has never been any since I have been here. By Judge Gilbert: Q. What has been the conduct of the following personal since they have been here: Quinn, Eyan, Roseman, Hausman, ZeUe, Miller, Lipman and Sherman, witnesses that were called bene ? A. A few of them have been reported for minor offenses; their 63 498 aTcrage is good; I could tell by my punisiunent booiks bow often they have been reported, but tiieiir average is good; ttey aje noit v&y bad. Q. How do you regard them, as incorrigible ? A. I don't con^ aider any of tbem very incorrigible. Q. These ,that I have named, what would you say of them ? A. Average prisoners; pretty fair. Q. Do you know of any of them that would not by kind treat- ment submit to ordinary prison discipline ? Mr. Stanchfield. — I don't think that evidence is competent. A. You can catch most anybody through kjmdness. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did I understand in the dark cells you ever chain the prison- ers to any one position ? A. I have never chained a man since I have been here ; never had a handcuff on them in the dark cell. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Can you furnish the prison record of those men that I have nymed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you please do it ? A. I will ; the rations are not the same in the screen, cell as in the dark cell at all timies; we have put beds in the screen cell and ^ve them the regular prisora fare where they have been in for a week or so. James I. Sart, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Mr. Craig. Q. You are the sergeant of the guard in Clinton prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been ? A. Since March, 1882. Q. You have served under what, wardens ? A. Puller and Thayer. Q. You heard the testimony of the principal keeper ?. A. Yefe, sir. Q. So far as you know is his testimony in accordance with the facts ? A. Yes, sir. Q, You were cognizant of the investigation by the commission of Clinton prison two years ago ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you read the printed report of the commission ? A. l^ot all of it. Q. So far as you know were the statements of fact and evi- dence in that report in accordance with your understanding of the facts ? A. Some parts I read I thought was a matter of fact, others I did not. Q. What were those you did not? A. I can't recall now, unless I should look my book over. ; 499 Q. Were you present when the punishments by paddling and ♦'hanging up were inflicted ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You witnessed the most extreme punishments that were in proof before the commission. ? A. A great many of them; yes, sir. Q. Paddling over a hundred blows, sometimes ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And hanging up, often to thirty and thirty-five and fifty-five minultes ? A. Was that 'fifty-five minute case the Johnson case ? . Q. I have forgotten the name. A. I think I was in Platts- burgh that day. Q. It was denied by some o^ the employes, but testified to by the prisoners ? A. I think I heard of that case from the princi- pal keeper in Plattsburgh. Q. You witnesised the most extreme punishments that were in, evidence before that commission? A. Yes, sir; I was present at pretty much all of the punieihments. ' Q. Will you please state what is the discipline of Clinton prison at the present time as compared with the discipline of Clinton prison at the time aoa.d before that investigation? A. Well, the discipline olf Clinton prison is good to-day with the privileges the men have; the discipline in form en days was good with the dis- cipline we had then and privileges they had. Q. Is the discipline as good now in general terms aa it was then? A. It is with the privileges they have. Q. What do you mean by thati? A. Men are not reported now for as it'SChniical thdnigSi as they were before, in passing niewspiaperH OP walking up and down the yard when exercising two together, or passing a chew tobacco from one to another, whereas they would be punished for it before. Q. Is the general order as good now as it was then ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How as to industries, as good work as then? A. I think it is; yes, sir. Q. The same quantity of work? A. I have nothing to do with the work. Q. Who can tell us about that? A. I think Mr. Moon would he the most reliable man. Q. Young Mr. Moon? A. Yes, sir; he is a* the factory office. Q. Will you say what the comparative amount and quality of work is now with reference to what it was before the investi- gation? A. I don't think we have as many reports for bad work now as we did in former days. Q. Do you think it is because bad work is not reported so readily as it was them? A. I should say it would be reported, because the warden would object to his keepers having_badworkif it was there, for it wouldn't be marketiable. Q. Mr, M0On i^ t^P mm of the old principal keeper? A. Yes, sir. 500 Q. Who administered the former pamishments of paddling and hanging up? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Stanchfleld: Q. What privileges do these men have toi-day which they did not have under the former administration? A. They have the privilege of being out to exercise more, walking up and down the yard together imder th€\ eye of a keeper, and they are privi- leged to talk together, and they are privileged to ejcercise more by using the dumb-bell, Keogh club and pitching quoits. Q. Any change in the use of tobacco? A. ISTo, sir; the same amount of toibacoo now that they always had. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you have a conversation! with Mr. Brockway in refer- ence to a prisoner that died here? A. Yes, sir; I did. Q. State what it was? A. We had a man that was transferred from the Elmiraj reformatory, and he was taken sick and was in the hospital, and about the time Mr. Brockway came here, dur- ing the investigation of Mr. Fuller, I informed him that sO' and so died; I can't call the man's name now, I presume I could if I looked over the records, and he says: "That is a good thing; thai is the best I have heard in a great while;" I didn't think the man understood what I said to him, and I repeated it to him, and he says: "Yes; that is a good thing for him an<^ the public at large, he ought to have been dead long' ago; " as much as to say he was a bad man out there. Q. Simply state what; he said? A. I can't state exact, word for word what he, said, it was some time ago; as much as to saj it was a good thing and a relief to the public at large atid to his family and himself that he was dead. Q. What, if anything, have you noticed with reference to thf condition of these ttransfesrsi tha* have been made from th( Elniira reformattoiry to this prison); I wUl clail your alttentioi pairltilcularly to a maitlter I dtefefilre to- have you sitaJtie' if you kmyw anything about it in referenioe to having bruisesi ujpoini their pea- son, or their conditiom as to health and a^peainaiQoe gienenaljly' A. I never noticed the bruises upon their persioni nor thdr health but I have notieed they have a bad lot of boys they send over here Q. Do you mean physically, or sO' far as being criminiaiU; iQcUned? A. Being crimiiniailly incMlniedl, toi rlafeie thle old boy ii anything they could do to make iit unpleasant for everybody. Q. What do you know with referenice tio their conduct unde your discipline, whethere they have obeyed yiouir rules or not asi i general thing, those that vrere oaMed tere as witnesses yestei day? A. I don't know who you had called ben^ m witnesses. 601 Q. Do you kmow Mr. Eyan? A. I dotift kmow ihim \yj that name. ; Q. Do yoni know Quinm? A. I fcaoiw of him imoi tlhie coiwe- spandeuoe; I don't know th® mam umieasi hie ehoiuid come before me. -' Q. On know Lipmacn? A. I dk)n't tMnk he hasi teem pianislhed over oncie since he has been lieEe; tihie conidiiict negdister would sihiow. By Mr. Craig: ~^ Q. Do thjosie men tpamsferred from tlhe refoirmlatfeoiry to Cliraboin prison aantiniue to be as tnoiuiblesom.e or mone or le* after ith.ey are receivied here? A. Not after the first draft we received; we were beitten exiperieniCied with that olajsisi of mem after the flrsit draft we receiTed tiham we were afterwards'. Q. Thie fiBSt diraift was before the inyesttigiation two years ago? A. Yes. Q. The drafts you had the laeit twoi yeairs do you bave as much trouMe with them after they bave been heire some time? A. No, sir; the flirstt draft we had put them aiU together in ome line of machineis and they were 'all together, and they cairtried out the deriltry I presume they did at Elmira; after we received drafts tmm Elmira after that we isciatteired them al over the priHOn. Q. You don't continue to have as much trouble with ithem as you did befone the last invastigaitioin? A. No. Q. PT?ior to the last investigaltiom you siubjected them to severe punishmient? A. Yes. Q. 'Now you do mot? A. No, sir; because we isepairate. them and they are not so bad; the other pri'somersi, I think encousrage them more to keep quiet and live up to the discipline of the prison om accoumt of the .privilegesi they receive under- this administratioin. i William Hogan: The chairman made the same statement to this witnesai as to the previous witne*es. « Th^ witnees was then sworh and testified! Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Have you been in the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you sent there ? A. November, 1888. Q.. From what place ? A. Owegoi. Q. For what offence ? A. Forgery in the second offence. ■Q. What had been your occupation before you were sent to the reformatory ? A. 1 was working for General Tracey. 502 Q. When were you transf erifed to this prison ? A. Nineteenth, of July, 1892. Q. While in the reformatory did you act as one of the inmaite officers ? A. I acted as a paroled officer. Q. For how long a time ? A. One year and nine months. Q. During that time you were in the reformatory what grades were you in ? A. I was in the new second grade and also flrst grade; upper first grade. Q. When you entered you went into what ? A. In the second grade, as it was called then. Q. Were you afterwards promoted to the first grade ? A. Yes, sir. ■, Q. How isoon after you entered did you earn your parole ? A Twelve months. Q. How much of that time did you act as officer ? A. I was paroled on the 2d of Decemibei', 1889, and I entered them on my duties as an officer of the institution. Q. You wesre reduced tlhen to the new second gnadle? A Ye«^ sir. Q. The red suit grade ? A, Yes, sir. Q. For what offence ? A. For borrowing some articles of delf from the kitchen keeper. Q. What were they .? A. Cups and saucers; I boorowed those things for a christening I was having at my house at the time. Q. Afterwards did you earn your first grade again ? A. I did. Q. How long were you in the lower grade ? A. One month. Q. Then you, were raised to the first grade again ? A. First grade, and paroled again as an officer. Q. How long did you remain in that grade ? A. Three months. Q. Then what occurred ? A. There was a charge of immoral conduct brought against me. Q. Were you reduced in grade ? A. Yes, sir; I was reduced to the new second grade again. Q. Eed suit ? A. Yes, sir; and kept ia solitary confinement one month, and then transferred here. Q. Was this charge ^f immoral conduct true ? A. No, sir; it was not. Q. Had you a hearing with reference to it ? A. One kind of a hearing; that was held at my — down at the solitary cells; Mr. Hoppe was one of the members of the court; Colon.el Bryan and Colonel Halpin were the other members. Q. As a result of that investigation or hearing you were reduced in grade and transferred to this prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. I am requested to ask you to state or describe the hearing that you had ? A. T was brought out of the solitary cells about G.30 in the evening and I saw Mr. Hoppe, Colonel Bryan and 503 Ooloiael Halpin there; I wasi Md to taike a sieatl, amd the flnait wit- ness brought in was this boy I was accused of using inxmorally; ho gave his evidence, and whatever other evidence that was brought against me by either Mr. Hoppe or the other members of the court, whoever had got thait evidence; the evidence against me by Bonner, 3261, was that I made a proposition to him on the 14th of June, 1892, to give him tobacco to allow me to take this boy to the darmiitory ; thisi he claims was made on, the' f oiurteeintlh of Ji?ue; that was Tuesday, if I recollect well; on the eighteenth, he made this report to Mr. Hoppe, that I had made this proposition to him; Colonel Bryan was then ordered to investigate it and he questioned the boy as to the affair, which the boy denied; the boy was taten from that and put in solitary conflnement, which Colonel Bryan stated to me in the solitary that it took him a long time to get the truth out of the boy; the question was then tbat if he told the truth it would save his grade and the conee'- quence of that he would go in the bath-room if he didn't tell the truth; he knew what he would get in the bath-room; the boy then acknowledged that I did the act to him; when i this accusation was made against me by Bonner, which the books of the reform- atory will show bears one of the worst records in the institutioin, and Avhich I can bring proof that is in this prison now that he has been reduced for something of a similar nature to that which he says I proposed to hiui, that has been told to me since the young mjui came here; he is here under the name of Emlok; it was Adams in the reformatory; when Colonel Halptn asked Bonner what proof he had as to the statement he had made to Mr. Hoppe, Mr. Hoppe siaid it was no good going into the details of the case as the boy already had acknowledged the fact; I should fancy, if : such a thing had been committed. Dr. Wey's — Mr. Babcock. — We object to that. The witness. — AiS the boy said such a thing was done to him, he had a right to be examined by medical authority, to prove such a thing had been done. Q. Was there any other witness called against you except Bon- ner ? A. ]!fo witness to substantiate either the statement made by Bonner or the statement made by Haraup; there were other witnesses called there. Q. What statements were made by the other witnesses in sub- stance ? A. There was one statement made by Livingston, a monitor on the stand in the trade school; he stated he had seen Haraup come and take a bath just before the whistle blew at noon; Haraup, when he came out of the bath-room, said his instru- ment was up in the bath-room; the band had gone out to the halls, and he went there witii me to get his instrument; there was aJso another young man that had done some late printing in the office, 504 named Cordes; he started tJiat lie went there with, me, and hie stated also on the investigation tliat he left me locking the iron door when he went out; he didn't say whether Haraup went up to the dormitory with me or whether he didn't. Q. Do you say upon that trial or investigation the oidy dkect proof that was given against you was the evidence of this boy, Bonner ? A. Tea, mr; the evidence was I made the proposition to him. Q. You insisted then, and insist now, that the whole statement was false ? A. Was false, sir. Q. Do you claim it was upon the strength of that that you have been transferred to this prison ? A. Yess, sir. Q. Do you know whether this matter was ever brought to the attention of the board of management of the refoirmatory ? A. Not as I know of. Q. Do you know whether they ever took any action with refer- ence to it before you were transfen-ed ? A. No, sir. Q. You know nothing about it ? A. No, sir; I was in solitary confinement all the time; one thing I would like to state, as Bonner said I made this proposition to him on Tuesday, on Thursday I had occasion to report him for neglect of duty, for not being out in the parade ground with the band when the band was pi'acticing; and he turned around and made this statement to Mr. Hoppe on Saturday; he said then I had made a proposition to him on Tuesday; there was four days had intervened between the time I made the proposal to him and when, he reported it; in the meantime I had reported him fbr neglect of duty. Q. Had he megleoted hisi d^uty? A. Yes, bSit; he was sitaiiding im the passageway leading from the tnade school inltjo the freSiCOing class. Q. Do you know where Banner w now? A. I believe in the refoirmiaitarif ' Q. Before you were traineifenred did yoiui have lamy talk with Mr. Bmokway abouit it? A. Mir. Brockway caame dowax to the soilitairy cells, that was before thiis imveeltfilgalioini took place, and asked me if I had anything to aay; I told him no; I was ehtSiiely inmooentl, and he waJked away. i Q. Did you have any convensatiotn witth him in nefetrenice to it at any other time before you were taken, away ? A. No, sir ; I hiajd not; excepting that he came down on the isiolitairy and I asked him what he intended to do with me; hie said he intended to transifer me to State prison. Q. Hiad you ever been convicted of any offienisie before this con- viotioin? A. No, sir, Q. Did you stand trial in: this casie or did you plead guilty? A. I pleadedi guilty. 505 Q. Before you were piit iato the loiwiest gmdie tihe last tinie, and lajftiea" jairole officer thait gaive you permJisBion? A. Boyd. Q. Do you liuow where he is ? A. I don't know ; I left him in the reformatory AAhen 1 came here. Q. Weren't you also charged the same time with having in your possession books that belonged to the reformatory ? A. No, sir; I wasn't charged with anything; I didn't even as much as) see the superintendent. Q. Weren't you accused of having' stolen from the refoofmatory proper^V of various kinds that belonged to the State ? A. No, sir. »Q. Weren't you reduced in grade on that account ? A. There was no charges made against me at all ; Mr. Winnie was the man that asked me where I got them, and I told him I got the loan of them from Captain Boyd; T was taken on the guard-room floor and Mr. Winnie^ent down to the front office and saw the super- intendent, and'^me back and told Mr. McLaughlin, the store- keeper , the superintendent ordered me placed in. the new second grade and put on the restrcure gallery. Q. Was.the charge ever made to you, or do you know the charge ever having been made against, you, that you had taken other property, books, something of that kind, that belonged to the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. Wasn't there an, investigation in reference to it ? A. No, sir. Q. Weren't you required to maike a sitiatement ta relaitibni to it? A. No, sir. 511 Q. You say you know nothing about anything of that kind at all ? A. No, sir. Q. If any such charge was made against you, you never had any knowledge of it ? A. I never had any knowledge of it. Q. Do you linow there was some property found at your house that belonged to the reformatory and was returned by your wife ? A. That was the dishes I borrowed, as far as I know. Q. You don't know of anything ^lee ? A. No, sir; if there were any books at home I was allowe'd the privilege of getting the loan of books from the library. I Q. These disihes were borrowed for the purpose of chrisitening ? A. Y^ sir. Q. You had a wife and child ? A. Yes. sir, Q. Is she living ? A. She is at home with her parents. Q. You had children ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew it was a violation of the rules of the prison to taka things out of the prison, take those dishesi ? A. There has been many an, officer got the loan of things that way from one another; any little thing they might want to do at home, and broTight them back again. Q. You knew at that time that it was against the rules for either the inmates or officers or anyone to take out or take away from the institutiom, anything that belonged to the State ? A. Without Mr. Broclovay's consent; anything at all, for that matter. ^. At that time you say you were an officer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. These things were obtained from an olfieer for 'a temporary purpose ? A. Yes, sir. Q. At the time you were transferred to the prison wasi there anything due you for services rendered there ? A. Sixty-three dollars, as far as I made it up. Q. Has that been paid you ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is objected to as incompetent and improper, unless the contract between the man and the managers is produced. Mr. Craig. — I think we wUl allow that. A. There wats no writteni coratraotl bettivf^eeoa uisi; I signed: no papers when I was paroled, between mysdf and the officers of the reformatory. Q. Do you mean to say now that at the time you were put back into" the second grade the second time, that you were then a paroled officer'? A. Yes, air; I was put in the solitary wearing my officers' uniform, and fed Saturday, Sunday and Monday on bread and water. Q. What rank did you hold as officer? A. Captain audi major. Q. What was your diet for the three days? A. Bread and water. 612 Q. During the TVhole montt? A. Yes, sir. Q. How' many times "a day? A. Twice a day; I never saw the doctor while I was in the place. By Mr. Craig: ' Q. In regard to your two accusers for unmoral practice, what were ithe names you gave? A. Bonder was the man who made the first statement, and Haraup the second. Q. Did they relate to two differenti offenses? A. Bonner made the statement I made pi'oposals to him; Hai'aiip said under pres- sure in the solitiarlee I had committed the offense with him, Haraup. Q. That made two alleged offenses? A. Yes, sir; one was a proposal. , . Q. You said something about one of the witnesses having been punished here for immoral practices; which one was it? A. I stat(^, Bonner bore one of the worst charactlers in the reforma- tory, and he had been reduced! for writing a note of an immoral nature. ' ' Q. At the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^^'here is he now ? A. In the reformatory, I suppose. Q. Where is IIarau]i? A. I suppose in the reformatory; the man this note was given to by Bonner to transfer to a young man named McCarthy in the reformatory, Adams gave this note to an officer named Baker, a paroled officei" doing duty, and Baker gave the note up to the authorities; that I was told when this young man came here. By Jlr. Litchfield: Q. Bonner made a charge against; you voluntarily? A. Volun- tarily. Q. Haraup made the charge voluntarily or under pressure? A. Under pressure in the solitari^. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Bonner only stated you had made a proposal to him? A. That is all. Q. The other is the one that stated in the bath-room that you had in fact? A. He stated that in the solitaries. Q. Have you had the money paidyoui thatiyou claim? No, sir. Q. Don't you know it was paid to your wife? A. No, sir; how would money be given to my wife withouti my receipt? Q. Do you know a man named Cox? A. Yes, sir. Q. He was the one that was cut over the eye? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don't you know that man had a fight with an inmate just before you saw that out? A. He wouldn't be able to strike a 513 Herring, as tliQ saying is; lie was a feeble imbecile: lie has been *ranstfeiTed to Matteawan aSylnm from this prison. Q. Do you know this man Cox had a fight with an inmate inst before he was punished? A. No, sir; I do not. Mr. Stanchflpld.— We ask to strike out his statement that he couldn't " fight a herring." Mr. Oraig. — Yes. Q. IJpofli this investigation before Mr. Hoppq and Bryan were you pemnttfid to put in all the evidence that you desired to' A. No, sir. Q. Did you offer any evidence that was rejected? A. No sir- I did not. ' ' Q. Did you' *brlng forward any witnesses to make statements before this board? A. Thte ouly thing that there was in it was when I came out of the solitary tiL&'e was the court ready to convene; I wasn't asked, rather I wasn't told there wa^ to be an investigation, had I any evidence to call or anything else. Q. Were you aUowied to maike the sitatementi youmself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were these partiels tihiat made statemente againistb you and were you youirself swoom? A. No, soir. Q. Juist miade jvouir istatememtfei? A. Yefe, sir. Q. Were those boys piMSent that ,aiocu;sed you? A. Haraupwas present. Q. Was "Bonner pnesianit? A. Yesi, si!r. Q. When you made your statement? A. The gimple statement I made was that I deniled the charge, the position I held then I had a right to a fair triial; I was in one way of fepeakinig' a citizen, and if T committed any charge I had a right to have a fair trial outside. I By Mr. Qi^aig. Q. What d^ you mean by "outside? " A. Im a ooulrt. Q. What court? A. CJourt of juistice. Q. Outside of the institutioui? A. Yeisi, sir. Q. You hJad noi right to Waii; you were a paroled man; the only (luestion is whether lyou 'had a failr triial iu the inistLtution? A. 1 didn't know being a paroled man I vras subject to: the vales of the institution, Q. They can send for you and take you back wilthout giving any reaision at aE. By Mr. Baboock. • i Q. Whaat nationality are you ? A. English. Q. Wlhat iJs your age? A. Tihirty-five. Q. Your weigb*? A. I weigh jaow 195 piouudls. 65 514 Q. Whait is your 'teiigliit? 'A. Five feet eight. ' By Mr. Oai'g. , ' Q. You 'are not coa-pcileiiit; sliows^voax alne a pretty etrong man? A. When I came hetrie I ■di'dm't ■weigh somiethilng like 160 poundis. Q. How long have you heen herei? A. Going on sixteen months. Q. If you want to explain anythSmg about the warot of fairness of taial in the instiibution we want toi heair it; we don't \^'!ant ta hear anythinig about a trial outsilde? A. The only thing I would wish to ea.y was this, that I think that I wasn't faMy dealt with. Q. Tell us the reason? A. The one way the statement was made against me was false. f r Q. Did you have a chance to ishow it was false? A. There was only isimply the evidlence there agadnst me; one man; and that e\"idence wias given under presisuire and what the boy would receive if he didn't say so. Q. That was Haraup? A. Yeei, siir. ' Q. How about the other man? Mr. Babcock. — How did he know thialfc? Mr. Oraig. — He referred to the martrter ta ihis direct examinaltdtoin. , Q. How near together ■n'erei these twoi acicusatibnisi? A. Bon- ner's report wap that I offered hiim totolaopo to take thdte boy up to the doimitory for kn'moinal purposeis. ' Q. How near was it to Hairaup's confesisibn? A. Hamaup's con- fession in the solitary? i Q. How long after was it? A. That same day. Q. Both the same day? A. Both the same diay. Q. Wetre you called! up on 'both chargesi the same time? A. No, si"r; "tihe &vst thing I knew albout it was in the afternoon; Mr. Sam- ples cam.e for me and said he hiad orders to put me la Na 4; that was the solitaiy. , ' Q. When you werei called toi fact the accusers;, were you called to face both at the same time? A. No, jsiir. 'Q. Which one were pou 'called to face first? A. Hararapi. Q. When were you called to face the other one? A. Monday afternoon; two days intervenied. Q. On either occasibn did you have wi opportunity of making your explanati'on and eaUing lany witness'esi? A. No, siir; I did no*. '' Q. Did you make amy statememte ? A. I simply denied it. Q. Did you have any witnesses to call ? A. The other wit- nesses were there. Q. What witnesses ? A. Men that were brought there; I don't know who brought them in there. 515 Q. Who Were they ? A. Livingsitone was one; I forget the other man's name. Q. What did he say ? A. Sipiply what he stated was that he saw Haraup take a late bath. , Q. Were there any witnesses -that you wanted there that you, weire deaniied? A. I nefVieT got aj chiamce to call my wiifttnessesi. Q. Did you have any witnesses to call ? A. Any witnesses I would have called would have been men in the trade school that had never seen,me in the dormitories with the boys. Q. Your comtpliaint iSi thene was nioi regulair trial in the insifciltu- tion to give you an opportunity to defend yourself ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your complaint, further, is the word of this man was taken against your word ? A. Yes, sir. Q. There were two men, different transactions, and we can't prove one transaction by another. By Judge G-ilbert: . Q. What position, if' any, do you hold here ? A. I am account- ant in the factory office. Q. How long have you. been in the position ? A. Ever since I have been here; Bonn.er stated I made the proposition to him on Tuesday, and he never makes the report until the following Saturday, four days intervening between' th& time he says I made the proposal. • By Mr. Craig: Q. Did yoiu have any unpleaisant rielationjs with Bonner before that time ? A. Except reporting him, in my duty. 1 Q. Had you reported hiin ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many witnesses were there called on that inquiry ? A. I don't know as I could ;|ell you how many. Q. Several ? A. There was no evidence elicited from any of them that woiuld show any guilt upon me. Q. They simply testified to circumstaii.cesi that were claimed to have- relation to it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not to the direct act ? A. Iv^t to the direct act. By Mr. Stanchfleld: Q. Haraujp, when he was brought in, denied you had held these immoral relations with him ? A. Yes, sir. Q: He was locked up how long in the solitary? A. Unitil Tuesday morning. Q. From the Saturday before ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon the Monday before he testified that you had held these liiimoral relatione, with him ? A. Yes, sir. 516 J3y Judge Grilbert: Q. What, if anytliing, did you hear said between these men, Bonner and an officer, with refei-ence to the statementg that he n>ust malie or he would be punished ? A. C!olonel Bryan told me in the solitary, when I was put down there, after lie had spoiken to Haraup about tte question, Haraup had denied it; he said it took him sometliing- like an hohr and a half; he had" visited the solitary several times during that period, and had asked the boy the same questions^ and he denied it; then he turned around and told him that if he told the truth aibout it he would save hunself a high grade; he was in tlie first gi^ade at the time, but if he didn't that they would get the truth out of him in the bath-room; those are the words almost; Cblonel Bryan told me himself. Q. Do you know the boy was taken tO' the bath-room after that and before you had yom- trial ? A. I couldn't swear that boy was taken to the bath-room, only what I heard myself from Mr. Sample, that told me he. was in the bath-room; he tx)ld me he was taken to the bath-room and paddled. Q. How many times ? A. He didn't tell me how many times. Q. What did he 3a,f he was takemi there fom? A. For whait he confessed ix) having to do with me. Judge Gilbert. — We will put tni the necord. Mr. Stanichfleld. — We miaike the same objecltioai as befoire. Mr. CSriaig. — Yes. IMir. White. — Keoeived Nov. 24, 1888; promoted to first grade June 1, 1889; i)aroled Deo. 2, 1889; ffletluimed for vaiolation of pairole in new second grade May 22, 1891; lower finst, July 1, 1891; upper flnst, Dec. 25, 1891; paroled April 8, 1892; retoirmed for violatiloini and in second grade June 21, 1892; trian'Stferried to Clinton pirlson. July 19, 1892. Mr. (>aig. — That is received on the same teinnus and com- ditions as the other records. [ Mr. Babcock. — I would like to know i!f the committee is advised that these convicts who were placed in' the corridon to be ciailed as witmessies are .permitted to oonversie with eaich othier there. Mr. Oraig. — I have no advitee on the subject. Mr. Baboock. — That is the fact; they are in convieinaation land oonMnunioation with eaich other, probably a dozen or flfteeh of them; Tindoubtedly that wasi the case y^terdlay. Mr. Oriaag. — An officer has been put in charge of this room; will somiebody call him? Mr. Oajig.^ Have the prisloners been allowed to converse togeth'eir in the haE? The officer. — Yes^ sir. 517 Mir. Orailg.'— T!h;e reques* is made you wiM not ailloiw thidta to converse on wxy siibjeot wh)aJtletv€ir while tJiey aire waMmg as wltnesaea Aililbieritl Metcriit: ' Thie dhialiimian made 'tJie isamie sttaitlement to tHuB witness as to foranjer witnlesisies. Tihe wiitniesis was itlheni sworn and tesrtMed: ' Examined by Jnidlge Grilbert: , Q. Have yom been in tih,e Elmir'a lefoirmatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wluen wetre yoiu sent there:? A. I think it wasi the 8th of Febtouiary, 1891. Q. Whiene fmm.'! , A. CStty of BuifEato. Q. For what? A. Ilobbery, third dfegree; bireaking in- a store. Q. Were other sent with yoia? A. ISToi, sir. Q. Did! yoii plead guilty? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Wh'en were yoiu tnamsfeirred to Clinton? A. I think the 22d o(f July, 1892. Q. When yoiu were in thie nefomuajtory were yom punished? A. ' Yes, sir. , Q. Taken to thie bath-room:? A. Yes', sir. , , Q. While in there being pimilshed were you. etruck aniywiliere else upon your person except upon your b&jck? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wheirfe? A. Bight aciroiss the face with the istaiap and hit undernteiaJth the chin with, the back end of the strajp by Mr. BrOck- way ihilmself. , ' ' Q. How many times were you in the bath-room ? A. I don't exactly luiow. Q. How niany times were you paddled there ? A. I don't (xactly know how many times I was paddled there; I never counted it; I thinli about nine times. <^. How many was the' greatest numiber of blows you received at one time ? A. I don't know; I never counted them; I wasi glad to get Out when I got in there. Q. Was it the first or second time you were paddled that you were struck over the head ? A. The first time. Q. How many times were you struck over the head ? A. Once across the face with a strap; had a big black eye lUce that. Q. Any other mark' made upon your head except that ? A. No, sir. Q. Your eye inflamed afterwards ? A. Yes, sir; big, swelled eye; I went to see Dr. Wey about it. Q. What did he do for you ? A. Didn't do nothing. Q. YouDg Dr. Wey or hisi father ? A. Only one Dr. Wey I know there. i 81« Q. What did lie say to you when you spoke to him about your eye ? A. Told me to behave myself and I wouldn't get it. Q. How long a time was your eye swollen ? A. About two ^seeks; perhaps longer. Q. How long a time was the flesh around your eye disicolored ? A. I don't exactly know. Q. What were you employed at at that time ? A. Physical culture class, and I also worked a little while at my trade ; wanted to learn one trade, and he wouldn't put me at that; I wanted to learn the barber trade, and he put me at wopd turning. Q. What were you struck with under the chin ? A. The back end of the strap, the handle; he didn't paddle mp at that time, he just hit me under the chin and sent me out. Q. He told you to do better ? A. No, sir. Q. How did he hit you under the chin ? A. Like that. Q. With thejeather part or wooden part ? A. Wooden part. Q. Make any mark upon your chin ? A. Swelled it up for a little while. ' ' Q. Didn't cut the skin or make it bleed ? A. Gut the skin a little. Q. Were those the only two occasions when you were struck over the head ? A. I was struck pretty near every time I went down there over the face with the strap when. I turned my head. Q. What did you turn your head for ? A. Because it hurt, I suppose. Q. Did you cry when he was paddling you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ask him to stop ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Every time you turned your head ? A. He hit me with the strap. Q. Did it leave any marks on your back or your buttocks ? A. Black and blue marks where he hit me with the strap. Q. Break the skin ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Bleed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any marks upon your back now ? A. No, sir. Q. You have a scar upon your forehead ? A. I had that there before I came ttere. Q. How did you get that ? A. I fell down stairs when I wasi a child. Q. Do you know an inmate by the name of Cox ? A. Yes. Q. What, if anything, do you know in reference to an officer striking him ? A. Mr. Berthold stnick him with a stick, struck him across the face and across the hands and good many other places; he pretended he didn't know, and if he put out the wrong hand he would hit him with the stick on the face or across the back; he hit me, also. 519 Q. Didn't leave any marks upon the boy, did lie ? A. I don't know. Q. He dMn^t leave lamy marksi upon yau when he Mt you in that way in .the exepcises theire? A. liiey would heal np after awMte; made nit black and bine; I madtei ai repoiriJ toi the siupedn- tendent aiboiut it but I didn't ge* no siaitiaflacition; Mr. Benthoid aUoiweid the pirisoinierisi to use itheii" own pcmislmient if they didn't do it; if you didn't do whait tlhe inmlaite insitruotor told you he had the priivilege of 'hfittling you a slap in the face or wherever ho felt Mice doing it. w Q. This stick that (}iou refer toi wiaisi a stick or rod that wias used m itihe exerciises? A. Yesi; two different sizes; nearly aa big around ais ai eent. Q. Befoire you wene paddled you hiaid 'been told or adimoaiisihed several tdmes, hadn't yoiu, that you must do teitter or you would be piunished? A. Yes, sSr. Q. You kept right on? A. How could I help it? Q. What were you ohaa'ged with; what ruilejs had you been violating? A. Differeant omes, talMtng; I dou^t exactly know; talking, langhing and fooling and one thimg and amother; the imnatas there have a good deal to ■ say thiere; 'they have a good deal to do with the 'plaoe; the 'inistruotor don't ihave 'hiis eg'es over you; it is the inmajtea Q. You mean the inmate offloeffl? A. Yes, sir. Mt. Orai'g. — Here i^ a tramiscripit from the records made by Mr. Hoppe, whdich I think, isi in e^iidence las a whole; I want to call special attention to transcript consecuta've number 4451, Albert Merrit, that is specially mentioined now, tending to show that the witness is defective lamd degenerate; waia jso when he lentered the institution. * Judge G-ilbert.— This vratneqsi? Mr. Cradig. — Yes, sir. It raises tiie quesitiooQ as to whether it is legitimate to subject to paddling a boy of this clasis. Ml". Babco'ok. — I want to say as to your statement as to the oanditon of this man, refterring ta the abstract, that th'at only refers to his physical comdition and has noi reference to his mental condiition. ^Mr. Oraig. — As I umdersitand it criminal anithropologists of whom the tnstitutioin at Elmiira and its representatives are dis- tinguished exponents, they claimi the phyisioal and mental are coirelaited. , ' ' ' Mr. Baibeock. — I want to ask that witmess whether he had been isnterviewed bt7 a World irepresentaitive. Judge Gilbert. — I think it will be conceded Mr. Boeder or Mr. "VS^te interviewed aU the witnesseis that will be called.* 520 Gredrge Wogaai: Same sitobement wais miade to tiite witoiesis by tike cihlaoinmaii &b to tibie fomaer wiitaesses. ISxe 'Witnees wajs tteni isiwoim and testifited;: Exairmned by Judge Gilbert: Q. You ha,Ye been ia the Elmira reformiatoiy? A. Yesi, sir. Q. "V\%ea Were you sent there? A. Third day of Janujary, 1890. " Q. From whart; place? A. New York catby. Q. For what off erase? A. I pleaxied. guilty to my chairge; I don't know what tihe charge was; I guess it was robbery in the second or third; I don't know which- r Q. Whait was it tlhait you had taken? A. A wiatdh off a gentle- man in the street,, Q. You plead guilty? A. Yes^ |Siir. Q. WMle yxm were in the i^etfoiimatoiry were you puniteihed? A. Yeg^ sir. , , , , Q. How old were you when you wetre sent there? A. SeYenteem yeans old. I Q. Anyone else -sent with you or convioted ait the samje time? A. No, sir. Q. How many times were you pumilsihed while you ware in the reformatory? A. Three times. ^ Q. For what were you punished the first time? A. Throwing a belt offi LQ the shop, off the »haf t. Q. How wa-e you punished? A. Paddle; I received eight raps; I was sent in and Superintendent Brockway stood me against the wall and I received eight raps; and when I couldn't stand any more I feU.to the floor; Superintenden Brockway said: "Mr. McLaughlin, fetch your shackles out;" and Mr. Mol/aughlia' brought the shackles out with a rope; put a rope toi the windbw, handcuffed to your hands, and pulled me off the floor; I received one rap, and after one rap when I was hung up I didn't know nothing until I was otitside in another cell. Q. When you were raised up in the manner you speak of, were you raised off the floor? A. About the height of the bar of the window, and the way I was pulled I should judge it to be about a foot. Q. You couldn't touch the floor? A. No, sir; T could not. Q. How long a time were you hung up? A. I couldn't tell; I know I was up long enough to receive one rap from the strap; after the first rap I didn't know any more. Q. Where were you struck at that time, what part of the body? A. The»flrst eight raps — seven raps I was struck right across the buttock; on the eighth rap I was struck above here. - §21 Mr. Graig, — Dr. Wey, where is that; aibove tike lower point of ' tKe siffcae. Dr. Wey.^ The upper portioii of the buttock.! Mr. Oraig. — Does it take in the spine at all? Dr. Way. — Yes, sir. Mr. CSraig. — Tak,e in the spinal cord? Dr. Wey. — The spinal cord traverses the space he puts his hand over. ' Q. We were speaking about the first punishment; what was the first thing you knew after this eighth blow was struck? A. After (the eighth blow I fell to the flooir on my kneesi; when I was struck across here (back) Superintendent Brockway says to me: " Get up; " I says: "I can't get up, superintendent;" he says: "Get up;" and I wouldn't get up; that was the second time _he told mfe; he says: ^'McLaughlin, you fetch in the cuffs;" Mr. McLaughlin fetched the oufls in and a rope, and attachecjl the rope to them and put the rope through the bair of the windolw and iron, and pilt the shackles around my wrist, tightened them on my wrist, and puUed me off the floor; Mr. Winnie was behind, McLaughlin was behind me; it was between themltwo gentlemen I was pulled from the floor, and Ij reoeiyed one rap, and when I received that one rap, I didn't know no more until I was in another ceU. Q. You don't know whether, you received more than, one rap or not? A. ^o. Q: On that occasiqin were you struck over the head? A. No, sir. Q. Or struck upon an other portion of your body, except as you have stated? A. No, sir; no other portion. Q. What were you punished the next time for? A. The next time I believe I was punished for reports; I couldn't say for certain. ! Q. How were you punished that time? A. I was just brought in; Superintendent Brockway says: " Stand over before the wall; " and I stood over before the wall and he gave me three raps behind, and struck me one on the forehead, and let me go; tha,t was four raps^'all together. Q. What did he strike you with on the forehead? A. With a strap he had. ' Q. Did it leave any mark? A. No; he hit me across this' way and knocked my head across the iron window. Q. Is that mark on your head now? A. No, sh; it was just where it was bruised, raised out, swollen. Q. Was that all the punMunemt you receivied upon thajt occa- sloh? A. Yes, isair; that was all. , 66 522 Q. The tihiTid time what wieir© you pumHieid for? A. There were a few men in the shop named Smith, Oanrol and. Hailey, and) I was .among them, planning to esciape; Haley planned to do tihe escapdlng -with ns men, and he sent wcoA oiuit to the officer on tIhe stand and he sent for Mr. Winne, and he caifcohied Smith under the flooa:i; the four of us weire broaigiht to the guaird-rocwm fflooir and the two men thajt told were let go; biut they wene impHoated in it; and tihey punished one mian thalt was not impliicajted in it. Q. Punisih you? ~ A. Yes', efir. Q. How? A. When I went and aisiked Supeirlnitendent Brock- way I told h i m I was no* trying to escape; ihe sayB|, " I wiU. not punisih you for thait; I will punisih you ajs befing aKicessory to the faot; why didn't yon come down and teili mie that?" . Q. Weipe you one of itihe .pairtiesi that weope trying to escape? A. Yes, sir; I was one of the .parties that was in the plan. Q. How were you punilsihed tihait tune? A. By facing oner to the wall; I received four raps. Q. Wlhere? A. Eight aorosis herie; he didn't sitrike me no more on the kidnieys from the flrstt time I was hung up; struick aciroiss the cheek of my beihind. Q. You weren't punislied in any other way except as you have staited? A. And lost 144 markis and deprived mie of eaiming a pairoile inside of a year. ' Q. (Mr. Craig.) You were jufitiy puniahfed fom tirying to escape? A. Yes, sir. , ] Q. (Ma OraAg.) You should have been punjishied in some form? A. Yes, eir; I was punislhed' in there, too. Q. Did Mr. Brockway ever strike you amy oftiheir time? , A. Yes, sir; he did. Q- Wherie? A. I went up to see him a week after I was pumdslhed for being an aecesisory to the facit, and I says, " Super- intendent, I would like to know can't I eaim a; pairole ontsdde of this place inside of a year;" he 'Sayisi, "No, you will sitay here three years and six; months ;" I turned around and says, " Now, supertu- tenden/t, I would like to know what the reason Isi?" he saysl, " Get out of here;" and struck mie, and knocked this tooltih so it was like that; I went to my cell and took it out like that and threw it in the tacket Q. (Mr. Oraiig.) Stirtuck you wi^ wbiat? A. With' hils flst. Mir. Qrajg. — Will Dr. Wey lolok at that tooth amd see whether the roots are in there? Br. Wey. — No riootsi remaiining. Mr. Craig. — Would a blow of that kind loosening the teetii, as the witnleeis eitates, and afteirwiaird pulled by himsieif, as he sttates, take out the root? 523 Dr. Wey. — If ttHie toottUx iim irts emtliireity was sound and was loosened, it would be ipoisisdlble for liim, toi extnact it inimsielf . Q. Did your, mouiiu bleed? A. Y-m, isdlr. Q. Wliat did be siay to yoto? A. Thiat is' all be -say^ " Get oiut of beipe." I \ H^. Were you even? bittl by Mr. Biwckway upon, any otluetr, oocia- stLon? A. l!fo, sir. ; Q. Ob by amy of tbe inmaifces)? A. 'Noi, siir. Q. Or by any of tbe oiflaciensi? A. Yes, islirj I neceii^ed a caiiflng on tbe guard-room floor. , Q. Mo punishment by wbicb yoiu reoei'vied niarks or soars? A. NO|, sir. i Q. WtoJaifc is your record (hjere? A. I losit flvie dayisi isinice I have been bene. * Q. Wblat did you do wbiea you wene ini Ebniina? A. I worked ia tbe book bdtodery for a wb£e and after I lost my grade I went to tih.ie pipe Hihiop. ", Q. Wbat do you do bei-e ? A. Instructor m ladies' wrappers. Q. Wbo was present wben you claim Mr. Brockway struck you in tbe face ? A. Oiiicer Barber was on tb'e guard-room floor. Q. An inmate officer ? A. No, sir; citizen officer. Q. Wbo was present in tbe batb-room when you were strung up ? A. Mr. Winnie and Mr. McLaugblin. Mr. tVbite. — Eeceived, January 2, 1890; second grade. May 1, «1890; paddled, July 30, 1890, L blows; Augtst 22, F blows; Sep- tember 16, D blows; and October 16, tbe report is missing, giving tbe number of blows; transferred to Clinton prison, December 10, 1890. Mr. Baboock. — Tbat is received under tbe same objection. Mr. CraigT — Certainly, aU of tbese statements are received, sub- ject to correction by tbe records and subject to tbe rigbt of tbe opposite parties to put in tbe residue of tbe records. Samuel Potter: Tbe same statement was made to this witness by tbe chair- man, as to tbe otber witnesses. Tbe witness was tben. sworn, and testifled: Examined by Judge Gilbert: • Q. Were you in tbe Elmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you sent from ? A. New York city. Q. For wbat ? A. Grand larceny. Q. While you were 4n tbe reformatory were you pxmisihed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In any other way except by being paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q- Were you ever in iibe solitary ? A. Ye^ sir. 624 Q. How long a time ? A. Five daya Q. Chained ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How were you cliained ? A. To the floor. Q. HandcTiflfed to the floor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. To a stationer^ ring ? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Halpin took a euff, put it around my aimi, and it was dark, and he went' to work and put something like a chain in the wood and he fastened it there, and I was chained to the floor. Q. You were there how many days ? A. Five days. Q. Any bed there for you to lie on ? A. Yes, sir; a tick. Q. Could 3'ou stand up ? A. l^o, sir; could not stand up; I could sit up. Q. During that tiaie were you released or the chain taken oflE from the ring so you could stand up ? A. No, sir. Q. How did you take your meals ? A. With my left hand, bread and water. , Q. Bread and water during the whole time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any physician to see you during that time ? A. No, sir; hf! wasn't down there at all. Q. 'VSTiat were you put in there for ? A. They got me down ' for assault of the principal keeper. Q. Was it true ? A. It was np assault on my part ; I wais defending myself; he struck me. Q. What keeper ? A. Mr. Winnie. Q. Where did he strike you ? A. On. Wednesday he came to ' 'die umbrella shop and said to me that the superintendent said if I did not do my task that he would i>unlsih me; he goes to work and calls out Goldstein, and speaks to him; 4 o'clock I askedl (loldstein what he said to him ; G-oldstein tpld me; that night Goldstein writes me a note an.d coming from school he hands me the note, and I was in the cell reading it and Smith, the night watchman, asked me for the note; I gave it to him; he goes to work and puts' two chalk marks on my door, and ten minutes after he comes back and takes the chalk marks off; the next morning, going out to work by the pipe shop Winnie calls Gold- '" stein and me out; when we got near the principal keeper he hduled off and struck Goldstein pretty near off his feet, and Jjefore I knew it he had me off ; he struck me, and he got us in the pipe shop and sitruck Goldstein again, and Goldstein went away from him, and he saw me there, and he sent for me, and by th|e engine-room there are some glasses, and he got me in the comer and pumped my head against the corner an.d broke the glass;, and he went to take me with his right hand and I held his hand and while in that position he took his teeth and bit me in the head by the ear; Mr. Hughes, a convict keeper, comes and separatesi me from the principal keeper; as he does it, Hughes on one side, the 525 /. principal keeper on this side, and both, of them try to trip me^ finally I fell; when I fell I heard a squeaking, and I saw Min., Winnie jump in the air and was going to jump on me and he fell, and I got up and he made a grab for me again, and in the clinch; I fell and he fell on top of me; Hughes got this hand out andl kneeled on me; Winnie held me by the throat and with the other knee, I was laying that way, right straight down, Hughes on this side and Winnie on that side; then he choked me and asked me did I give in; I couldn't speak, and he let go of me and took me up from the floor and asked me was I going to be a good boy; I didn't answer him; then he, made a blow for me again; I hap- pened to see a hammer by the plumber class; I picked up the 'hammer and was going to peg it at him, and he took the hammer away from me and stood mfe in the corner and Halpin comes and takes me in 603 cell, and I am stripped by him and McLaughlin, naked, and about half an hour after that he took me down to the solitary and stripped me there, and Mr. Winnie examined my head' to see if I had anything in my head, and I showed him the mark where he bit me; blood wa® runuing down.; I wasi chained to the floor,' after dinner I was taken to the bath-room and Halpin lashed me over to the window and W'innie grabbed my clothes' otT of me; I received six blows. Q. You didn't receive any blows there except upon, your back;, jour buttock ? A. That is all. Q. Why were you taken in the solitary and chained there ? A. I'or that." Q. Were you put in the solitary at any other time ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you punished any other time, paddled; with your pants down, with clothesi on ? A. With, my clothes on I was hit and blackened my eyes. Q. Who hit you ? A. The superintendent. Q. What did he hit yon with ? A. With the strap and with, his hand. ' Q. Where ? A. Down in. the bath-room. Q. Superintendent Brockway ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. WTiat did he strike you with ? A. With strap and with his hands. i Q. He didn't have you stand up to the window ? A. No, sir; only once. Q. What was there with reference to your being injured while woridng upon some portion of the prison ? A. The time I got the black suit T was getting along nicely; the siuperintendent put me in the bricldaying class, and Winnie put me on the extension carrying a hod; I told Mr. Winnie I was nervous and afraid to fall ofE from diizinees; he says, "Damn you, damn you, I want 526 you to carry that hod; if you don't you must talce the conse- quences;'' that meant the third grade; Saturday about 10 o'clock, I think, I fell off; I had a hod on this shoulder and men, on th|e scaffold, and I went apast them, and the brick slipped and I feU on my face, right straight down ; I was taken up to the hospital and Dr. Wey put some stitches there and one there and put me in bed; the following Wednesday scabs were here and my eye was sore and sprained hand; Dr. Wey sent me out to work, the same thing, carrying the hod; instead of going out to work I stayed in my cell; they sent for me and forced me out to work, and I went up to the drawing school ; the next morning I was put out to work a^gain; I stayed in and Dr. Wey gave me a chocolate report for faking. Q. Anything more about your being injured while working upon any other part of the prison than you have stated? A. No, sir. Q. Were yon reduced in grade for not doing that kind of work? A. Yes, sir. Q. To the lower grade? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long was it before you were sent away? A. A year after, I think, eleven months. Q. Were you in the lowest grade' all the while until you were sent here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you convicted for any othfer offense? A. Never in my life. Q. Never was in any other prison? A. No^ sir. Q. Weren't you in the New York Juvenile Asylum for two years? A. My mother put me there. Q. Weren't you in the Monroe county penitentiary for six monthls? A. No, sir. Q. Did you tell the superintendent you hadi been in a prison before? A. Yes, sir; I did. Q. Why did you tell him that? A. Because I wanted to get transferred; I couldn't get along there; that is the reason I told him; I wanted to get away from^ the prison. Q. Did you go under the name of Gharles Jomeei? A. That is wha;t I told Mr. Brockway at thait time./ Q. Was that your true name? A. No, sir. Q. What is your true name? A. Samuel Potiter. Q. Why did you give him a false name? A. A party had been therd and told me about the place, so I wanted to get transferred, so 1 took this man's name, and told him I had been there; I didn't want to stay there. ' ' Q. Ever been confined on Blackwell's Island? A. Never in my life. Q. Did you tell the superintendent that? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was unitrue? A. Yes, sir. 527 ,Q. Did you tell him you had been confined at one time on Hart's Mand? A. I told, him that. Q. That was untrue? A. Yes, sir. Q. You told these stories for the purpose of being transferred? A. Yes, sir. Q. And as you understand it you have been tlransf erred to this prision because the isuperinltemdenit there supposed thlait you had been ooin'victed and limporiisioned before? ANIToi, isilr; ifihie tinue he took me out of the rest cure he told me he wrote to my mother; my miothier. said I hadn't been to ;thio®e. placesi lat al, amd I told him not to mind it. Q/ Have you been punished 'hieirie? A. Yes^ sir; oince. , Q. How? A. I was confined two days and locked up over night. Q. For whart? A. Foir slapping a boy named Smith; he called me namiea. (The wiitneissi is a colored mian.) * Hugh Lawrey: The same stiatement was made to this witness by the chair- man as to the previous wii The wDtneHs was then siworn and tesittified: Examonied by Judge GiUb'eirit: Judge G-Ubert. — We hiave other witneislsies coming in the clan's the invesifciigattilng commftitee ciaH cumuliaitive. There are two the proaeoution ddldm't kmow^ of until they caime here and they would like to oaJl thetm. , Q. Hajve you ever been in the Elmirai ireformaitoiry? A. Yes, sir. [ ' Q. Where were you sent from? A. Fi^oim Buffalo. Q. When were you sent theme? A. October, 1889. Q. For what? A. Eeceivitaig stolen piroperty. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes', siir. Q. When weiPe you tronistferrted to thaisi prison ? A. On Decem- beir 10, 1890. ' _ Q. While you werei iin the refoirm'atory, w^ere you praniished? A. Yes, isoir. Q. How many timesi? A. Three tim.^. Q. What were you pundlstoed ftor the first time? A. For getting too m>an.y reports. Q. In whajt? A. In the military school and shop all over. IQ. How W'cre you punished the first timei? A. With a strap, hung up to the window with the hapdcuffls. Q. Yoiu (Say you were hung up ix> the window? A. Yes, sir. 528 Q. How were jmx Jmnig up? A. Witlh a pair of hjamdcuffs to tke window', one cuff put tbrougli thie window and fia^temed on my wriist. Q. Hung up so yoiu couldn't stand on tike floior? A. Yeia, sir; I was adl of six or eiglit imcilies from the flow. Q. How many blows did you receive? A. I don't know,; I didn't count thHui. Q. Was tiiiat all tl«fe pnnisihment you Teeeived at thab time? A. 'So, sir. Q. "Wliat further pumisihiment ddld you receive? A. I got knoioked down 'before he put tbe 'hamdc^iffs on me; kicked me in the head and in my ishitns and tooth knocked out; chaised me aawiund ttue table in order to catch me and put the 'hiandcufBa lom mie. ( Q. You objected to beSIng ihianidcufied? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were knocked down? A. Yes, i^iir. Q. ^V\vdt. did you dt>? A. I asked Mm wo'uld 'he give me a chance to explain myself. Q. Dild you resiist them? A. J^To, sir. ' Q. Did you try to keep-thettn from patting the handciuflis on to you? A. Yet^; I tried to stop them from puttitag the hand- cuffis on. Q. What did you do? A. I run laround' the table; got away from them. , Q. They caugiht you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't know who struck you? A No, siir. Q. Show your mouth to the committee and see whether youa* tooth is out. Mr. Oraig. — Will Dr. Ransom please look and see whether the root is in there? Dr. Eanisom. — The root is out. Mr. Oaaig. — Might the root be knocked ont at the same time? Dp. RaMsom. — It might not and it might; if it wasn't too firmly held it might come away. Judge G-ilbert. — Will you examine the mouth arnd see what tooth it was? A. Piinst balciuspid tooth, lower jaiw ; on the left side ' the teeth an-e lail intact except thiis one. Q. Did you receive any other injury at that time ? A. Yes, sii'; a cut here in the side of my head. Mi". Craig. — Show it to Dr. Ransom. Dr. Ransom. — There is a scar. Mr. Craig. — Do you find it. Dr. Wey ? 529 Dr. Wey.-rYes, eir. Mr. Craig. — Please describe where it ia Dr. Ransom. — I find a scar on. tke left side of the head over the JTmkjtion of the temporal with the parietal boioe, about twO' inches from the radial line. The scar is one iach long; was evi- dently a superficial scar of the scalp made some time ago; I should say several years ago. Judge GUbert. — With reference to the depth of the woun^ can you judge anything about it ? ' Dr. Ransom. — It has not reached the periositeum, a superficial ore; one that does' not cut down to the periosteum, but cuts 'through the outer layers of the skin, scalp. There are no adhe- sions of the periosteum to the bone. The periosteum' was not injured; if there had been inflammatory trouble it would have adhered to the cranium. Q. Did you receive any other injury at that time ? A. Yes, sir; one in my right shin. (Witness shows his shin.) Judge Crilbert. — Describe it, doctor ? Dr. Ransom.— A circular scar on the shin bone over the breast of the tibia ; it is about the size of a silver five cent piece, perhaps half an inch in diameter. Q. Did you receive any other injuries at that time ? A. That is all. Q. Who injured you in the head; how did you come to get that scar ? A. I know^ it wasn't Brockway done that; it was either McMsh or Winnie. Q. Who did it on your shin ? A. Either one of them two. Q. Who knocked your tooth out ? A. Brockway done that with the strap. Q. Knocked your tooth out with the strap ? A. Yes, sir; the hfindle of it. Q. Where were you when he struck you with the handle ? A. With my hands on the window of the bath-room. Q. What was -yon doihg that caused him to strike you in the face ? A. I looked around at him. Q. What did you say ? A. I didn't say anything; I simply looked to see when he was going to strike the next blow. Q. What did he say to you ? A. Didn't say anything. Q. I understood you to say a moment ago that you didn't know who it was struck you that knocked your tooth out ? A. No, sir; I said my head and shin. Q. Now you say your tooth was knocked out hj a blow from the handle of the paddle, struck by Brockway ? 'A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were chained up or tied up to the window ? A. Yes. 67 530 Q. How many blows did he strike you in the face or over the head ? A. I got several of them. Q. I mean at that one time ? A. About three to four; I ain't sure which. Q. Did you cry ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you use any vicious language ? A. Yes, sir. Q. "Whalt did yiou siay to him ? A. I didn^t say anything^ directly to him; I swore, but it wasn't at neither one of them. Q. What did yon say ? A. " You God damn son of a bitch, are you trying to kill me;" that is all I said. Q. That is all you said before receiving the blow from the handle of the paddle ? A. After I received it. Q. What had you said before that ? A. Nothing at all. Q. You had tried to get away ? A. Yes; but I didn't say nothing. \ Q. What did they say to you ? A. Didn't say anything, only when I wemt in the bath-room he told mie to take dlown my pants. Q. Any profaine lamguiage used by either of the tihree? A. Winniiie called me a God dammed housle of Tietogie baeitaird. Q. Had you been confined in amy pmiBoni befoine going to the refotnmarttory? A. I wais in the refuge. Q. Hadn't you been in the Erie county penitentiary'? A. No, sir. ' Q. Hadmt yiou been con-viioted of steaOinig? A. Noi, sir. Q. Did yoiu ever steal any graini from cans? A. Ye©, sir. Q. Werte you convicted Yes, sir. Q. Dr. Wey was present when your head was bandaged ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When your tooth was knocked out was the flesh about your mouth cut ? A. No, sir; my tooth stuck out; it was a crooked tooth. i Q. Before you were hit your teeth were not even; that totothl stuck out from the rest ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn't yoiur face cut at all by the blow ? A. No, sir. Q. Did the paddle leave any mark upon your face ? A. No, sir; when I got a crack across the eyes I had black eyes over each; those are the pnly marks I had. ' 533 Q. How many times did you say you were paddled ? A. Three times. Q. Each time did you receive blows over your head ? A. Yea, sir, Q. From those blows you say your eyes or around your ey€^ was black and blue ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you give the dates of those punishments ? A. I can give the date of one; I can give the month of the first one; I got tliis out in March, 1890; that is the only one I can remember. By IVlr. Craig: Q. Might it have been February or April ? A. No, sir; it was March; I went before the April board and showed them my head; the condition it was in; it was all done lip. Q. Could it possibly have been February ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you punished in February, 1890 ? A. I don't know; I couldn't say. Q. I tell you, for your own ben.efit, the record shows you were paddled February 12, 1890 ? A. I don't know, Q. ^^d that you received eight blows ? A. I received more than that; I was paddled three times. By Judge Grilbert: Q. Did you receive any blows over your head at any other time except when you turned around ? A. No, sir; that was the only time. Q. Why did you turn your face away each of those times ? A. To see when he was going to strike the next blow. Q. Hadn't you been told or instructed not to turn your face ' away from the window ? A. Yes, sir; but you can't help to turn it. Q. Were you told you wOuld be struck in the face if you did turn your face ? A. No, sir. Q. Or over the head ? A. No, ^ir; simply told me not to turn my face either ways. Q. Did you see any others that were struck over the head in the bath-room ? A. No, sir; I have seen some come out of there that coul/in't walk, from getting it across the l^idneys. Q. (Mr. Craig.) How do you know they were hit across the kid- neys ? A. I have seen it in the shop. Q. How did you know tihey received the injury in the bath- room? A. There wefne tihe marks of the straip. Q. Yoiu didm't isee them come out of the bath-room.? A. Yes; I seen them coming out of the hall witlh the* Burgeotn. Q. After tlhat you siaw them in the shJop with, thoisiei miarks on them? A Yes, sdir, ^ 533 Q. Oani you naane Uhiem? A. I can name tllMee or tour of them; Kelleir, MoDonaM, Potfceip; iMit is all I can maime; I seen McDonaM come oiut of thlere wiltlh Ms fajce all fim^eiUed: np amid hM lips and Ms back. Q. Where is McDonald? A. He was in tlie refomiatiory when I came away. Q. Do yoiu remeanlbeir an imnaAe najne^ Johnson? A- Yes, sin; a coloireid fellow. ' Q.' Do you know of hiiis being tiaiken to tihe 'batlh-room? A. Y€^, sir. Q. Wlhat do you know, if anytHuiiig, in refeireinoe toi his ha\ding bruises upom Mm? A. I seen him when he came out; thjart was the time I was in the nest cure. Q. Whiat did you see about Mm? A. I saw. he couldn't walk. Q. How dio you know he couldn't walk? A. Thene was an offi- cer on eadh side of hi\m suppoirting him. Q. Anything oiver his head? A- Yes^ ^siip. Q. What? A. I couiidn't say what it was; I couMm't see plaam through, the screen. Q. How do yodi know it was Johnson? A. A fellow told me in the hall. ' Q. Di'd you Hee any blood? A. No, mc. Mr. Babcock. — ^I ask to have that testdiaDony stricken out; he only knows it wa^s Jotonsiom from! the fact he wias toiid. Mr. Cnajigi — We shall take Into consMeration he didn't know. Q. You don't know of your own knowledge that thiei man you saw was Johnaon? A. I know it W'as Johnson afterwairdB. Q. You don't know exceptinig what you weaie told'? A. I knew it afterwards; I didn't know it at the time. ■ Q. How did you know it fafterwardisi? A. He was mieising in the shop, and I miade inquiries. Q. Did you isee him ajfterwaxids in his eel? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know anytMng about who it was except what someone told you after you saiw him? A. I am sure it was Johnson. Mt. Oraig. — it is mere hearsay. We wil' take his direct evi- dence that Johinsoe was missing from the shop after paddliteg; that was the oircumistances. Q. How do you know he was naislsing in the jshop? A. He wasn't there. Q. Did you work your full hours in the sh.op? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he work ini the same shop? A. Yes, sir; ita the pipe shop. Q. I thought you ware m the (reist cure? A. Aften I came out of the reisit cuine. 534 Q. . How 18I0KH1 did yooi 00101© omt of the irest oune aJf ter you saw Joiliiisoin im the haM.? A. Atiouit thieei daya Q. Did anyoee wirite a letter fon yoiu? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wito? A. I don't know What Mb maane is; lie is over in the ehoj); tihey call hdm Dick. Q. Wmittem by one of the inmiates? A. Yes, sir. Q. One of the coraviioljsi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you admit in the reformiatoiry you picked tup a glaiss moiajssiea jar aiad hiurled it at one of the keepens? A. Yes, sir; that was what I wae puniilsihed for; that and reportsi; the repoitts done i* though. Q. Did you state in that letter thijsi strap was loaded with lead? A. It was loaded with somethalng. Q. Do you isiwear to that now? A. Yes, sir; I didn't isay what it was loaded with. Q. IThis strap when it('walsl used was it) wetj on dlry? A. It was wet. I ( Q. Did you see it dipped in water before it was used? A. Yes, su'; seen him pull it out every time; pull it tihrough' his fingers; pull the water off. • Q. Why do you think it was loaded? A. It was so heavy when he struck me with it, a solid blow. Q. Leave any marks upon your back? A. No; I oarftl say as it did. Q. At the time were there any marks upon your back? A. Yes, sir; I came here with marks. Q. Came to this prisoni with marks? A. Yes, sir; Dr. Eansom can testify to thaitt Q. Did you show them to anyone? A. Dr. Bansom saw them when he examined me. Q. Can you describe the marks? A. About an inch and a half wide and seven or eight inches long. Q. How long was it before you' came here that you had been paddled? A. I couldn't say; I don't remember when I got pad- dled. , Q. Can't you teU about how many weeks or months it was? A. I should say about a week or two weeks. Q. Do you remember how many blows you received that time? A. No, sir; I never counted them any time I went down there. Q. Did you show those marks to anyone else besides the doctor? A. Hogan seen them. Q. The witness who has been sworn here? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wihat has your record been here? A. It has been pretty bad. Q. Have you been in the hospital here? A. Yes, sir; com- plaint of tlie kidneys. * 535 Q. Were you treated by th.e doctor for kidney difficidty? A. I couldn't say as to that ; I know that was what was the -matter with me. By Mr. Oradg: Q. Are there ainy soars on you now, oa your back? A. No, sir. Q. How do you know? A. Nobody said anything to me about it ; I have been taking a bath regidarly in the battiMOom,. Q. Have you asked anybody to look? A. No, sir. Q. Put yo^ur hand where you say you were hit? A. Right across there. , . Mr. Graig. — That is below ihe kidneys, but the lower part of the spinal column; is that right? Dr. Wey. — The extreme lower portion possibly. Mr. Oaig. — There is a provisional impression on my mind, subject to correction and qualification by further evidence, that a boy like this who says that he was running away to avoid punishment, but who, if he actually resisted (which w6 may assume for arguments sake) was, according to his aitory, sub- jected to these injuries in three different pla!ces, raises in my mind a question whether it is legitimate for two stalwart men, besides the superintendent, to reduce to submission a mere boy, slight as he is, even under stout resistance, by such procedure. In State hospitals for the insane a man would be disciplined, two men ii they leftl marks upon the body of a man not so stal- wart as either of tbem. in reducing them to submission, and that is the rule, to call enough to reduce a man, to submission without leaving marks on him or injuring him. Here is a boy, slight; no matter what he did, why couldn't three men reduce him to sub- mit to punishmenti, paddling, without leaving these marks on him. My remarks are on the supposition his story is true; we have got to find that out^ but there have been quite a number of such cases there, slight men. Mr. Stanchfleld. — The chairman probably has not had much practical experience in physical encounters! of that kind. I have brudlsied around enough in college ih, know smiaU things sometimes are the dangerous onesi to tackle. This matter of phyisioal experience I know something about, and it mighit well take twoi or thiee men — I thinki the doctoris wiU bear me out — to handle that boy. Mr. .Oraig. — That is where you meeb men on an equality amd hlaiveu't the authorlity. Mr. Stanchfleld. — He is in open murtliny, Mr. Oraig. — I say what I do simply to get the replies. Jndgie Gilbecrt. — I would asik ought here of ithe doctor, if he esamined the boy'si bteudk whien Txe came hene? 536 Dr. Bansom. — I examine all oomyicts rieceiTeid in priBomi aaid a' recoiEd is taken at iihe time of tkeir reoeptloii, but in; hia caee tlie records previous to Jwmaany, 1891, were dlestroyed by the Are; thaJt is, my records; all received since then I have a reco(rd of; I haven't any record of hdm, I hiave a hospital irieooipd of him. Mr. Oriaig. — What was he ijireated for in the hostpital? DfT. Bansom. — I would have to refer to my record. James J. Newmam: i The same sbartjement was made tb this witness by the cliair- man as to the other witnessea The witness was then swoain and tesltifledi: Exiajmined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Were you in the Ekniira reformialtoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you sent frooi? A. New York. Q. For what? A. Grand lairiceny, seciorad dleginee. Q. When were you tnanafeawed to thfe paisoin)? A. Nineteenitih July, 1892. Q. Were you punisihed while you were in the ireformiatory? A. Yea, sir. Q. How many times? A. Four: times. Q. Paddled? A. Yes^ siir. Q. How mamy blows each time? A Nine up to twenty-one. Q. Oajn you give the dates? A. No, sir. Q. Can yoa give the months? A. No, eoir. Q. What were you punisihed the flrat timie for? A. Striking a mam with a wooden gun in self-defense. Q. One of the convicts? A. Yes, sir. Q. How were you punisheid? A. Strang up to the bans of the window; two handcuffs put on my hands, one on the right hand; and they lifted me up and passed the other apound through, the bar and put it on my left hand. Q. Standing on the floor? A. No, sir; that mucih of the floor Q. YoQ touched the toes? A. Yes, sip. Q. How long were you kept there? A. Seven momths. Q. How long were yOu Hfcming up? A. Albout twoi miniutas. Q. While you were in that position were you sitiruiok upon amy othen piartt of your body than upon your back? A. No, sir. Q. Were you at any time sitruck upon any other part of your body thiat upon your buttock or back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you struck? A! I was pnndhed here. Q. In your montth? A. Yesi, sir. Q. By wiwMn? A. Mr. Brookwiay. Q. For wliat? A. Telling him I wouldn't go over and stand up anid taike down my jjanta; t said, "No; I ain't no soiblool boy;" 537 with; tlhaJt hie puDiGihieid' mie in thie moiatlh. and knocked me on the floKw. i Q. Waa that the first tune? A. Yes, slir. Q. Bid yotuir moniith bleed? A. Yes, biLt. - < Q. Is theme any iscar or miairk upomi youir miouth? A. Yes, sir. Q. Show it \to thie docitior'? (Th.e doctou exjaaiiinies the witniesa' miauitlL) Mr. Eiamsom. — To the leift of the nuediumi line of the lip about a quarter of an inch in length, showing the membrane had been cut there, i Mr. Oraig,-^ Do you agree to tiiat, Dr. Wey. Dr. Wey. — Yes, sir. Q. Wlien; you were handcuffjed at the window were there) shackl^ upon your feet ? A. Yes, sir; to keep me from kicking. Q. (Mr. Oraig.) Had you kicked before ? A. Yes, sir; I started to kick, and he put the shackles on my feet. Q. Kicking at who ? A. Trying to break away. Q. Break away from who ? A. From the officers. Q. Then they put the shackles on. you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wlieai you were struck in the mouth what effect did it have ujwn you ? A. Just knocked me down; didn't make me unconscious. Q. When' down whiait oociuirred? A. Tke officers overpowered me; Mr. Murphy, the hall-keeper, went out and got two pair o^fi handcuffs and shackles and put them. on. Q. Who was present ? A. Mr. Sample, the store-room keeper; Murphy, Mr. Isemby and Mr. Halpin and Mr. Brockway. Q. Wbere were you taken to from the bath-room ? A. Taken out to the shop. Q. You wereji't injured so' but what you cou^d go to work in| the shop ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you at any other time struck upon any portion of your body except upon the back ? A. No, sir. Q. This was the only time ? A. The only time. Q. Were you ever confined in the solitary ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever chained in any cell ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever convicted of an offense before you were sent to the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. What was your age when you were sent to the reformatory ? A. Seventeen years of age. Q. What was your weight then. ? A. Ninety pounds. By Mr. Oaig: Q. What do you weigh now ? A. I don't know. 588 Q. Have yon grown sine© you came here, in height ? A. Yea, Q. What did you weigh when you came here ? A. I don't know. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Are there any scars or marks ui)on you you r/eceived at that time ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Babcock: Q. Who conducted you into this room to give your testimony ? A. Mr. Hanlon. Q. Who camie initio the doon ibehiindl you? A- A nepprtein. Q. Eeporter of the World, Mr. Boeder ? A. Yee, sir. Q. Who flnst sajw yoiu aboiuit itesitimony, albomt what owoivrired in the Elmira reformatory ? A. Nobody, until I was brought from the shop to the office. Q. Who was it you met there ? A. Mr. Hanlon; I met the World reporter in the office. Q. When ? A. Day before yesterday. Q. I« that the one that- brought you into the room here ? A, Yes, sir. Mr. Boeder. — The chairman requested me. Mr. Craig. — Mr. Fannjmg, the secretary to the committee, has been absent during the examination of the last two or three witnesses. I was not aware I had made any special .request for the gentleman to bring i^i this man, but it is proi>er he should. Judge Gilbert. — I requested him to bring these two witnesses in after their names had been given. Mr. Craig. — He left his keeper in the hall and was received aft the door by the reporter of the World. The witnesses, when the secretary of the committee has been present, were met at the door by Mr. Fanning. Dr. Bansom. — My records show this man's weight was 111 pounds when he 'C!am.e here, naked; tihajt wtais 'the time I neoedtved him. Judigie Gdillbert— Have you the recond heire ehowiinig wihat you treated thiis other boy fon? Dr. BanisttuL — I have the hosipitiall neoord. Laviriey wiap ireoeived Decenilbei^ 10, 1890 iln prisoin; aidmitted to the hioispitiajl Setptembiein 14, 1892; he was treated for inflammiaition oif the bladder, la hemior- irhage ■from the b'ladlder, the neck of the bladdleri, aandl he wais diB- charged firom the hospitial Novemiber 21, 1892. Mr. Onaaig. — Does th'at hiajve amy coimection with amy injury, or might it? Dr. Bansom.— I woiuld 'be uniaJMe to istlEute; not rtiha* I could discover; he reoei'ved mo injury heire, amd tihere were no evMenoee of injuiry uhleej^ seif-infli^sted: injuirtiesL S39 Mt. BaibcoiGk. — You daldin't tpeiatt hhni tor any kaldney diiaeaise? Dr. Eainsoiin. — ^I ddid' molt; I lam treaibLng iuki now more or less foir diialbetdic tironble; h.e sJibws a 'lititle sugiar in lusi urine. iMJr. Babcock. — You never diecorv^ered any trouble wolth. his' kMney? Dv. Bansoim,. — I dMn't at the tdlme be was ia tbe ibospdltal; I tbouigb* lately, d!n the la«it specimiensi of M^ urdne, I tihougbt be showed isdgns of pynettuis (?); be bais bad some syimptomH of tbart; kind of latte. Mr. Babicock.— Tbat can come from legitimate cau^Si? Dr. Eianlsoan. — Yea Mr. Oraiig. — Tibe oondeir is that notitee isbiail be giiven to "tibe refoiraniartxMy of tbe names of laill wittiaessiesi toi ibe examined at Anbujrn next week IMlday or Saittuirday, togietber witlb tbe names of witnesses from Buffalo ofr elsewbeire to be . exaimiined ait tbe siarae place on olr 'before Mondiay of next week. The committee alpo decide tbiat when we aidjoum fnom GUtatoM prison we sEiall adjouim to meet at Aubuma ^tate prdison on IMdiay morning November 10, ait 9 o'cloick in tbe forenoon. Gbiarleis Moon, beitnig duly swoam, tesitified: Examined by Mir. Craig: , Q. You ane am officer or employe of Olimton prfeom? A. Yes, sir. Q. In wbiaft capiacilty do you act? A. Bookkeepeo" at tbe factory. Q. Noit bookkeeperi in the clerk's office? A. No, sdlr. Q. How long hiaye you been in that oapiaicity? A. Nine yeaa:s. Q. Under WaJrden Puller and under Wainden Tbayer? A. Yels, sir. Q. UMer IMnciplal Keeper Moon landl undert itibe present prln'oipal keeper? A. Yes, jsiir. Q. Principal Keeper Moon wiais your fartber? A. Yesi, sfflr. Q. He was tbe principlal keeper under Wandem Fullter? A. Yes, sdlr. Q. As bookkeeper in tbe factory you lia,Te knowledge of tbe quanitity of work tbait is done, biarve you not? A. Yes, isir. Q. Oan you give us a comparative statement ajs to the quantity befoire the investigatikwi by tbe coonmaission twoi yeairs ago and tbe quantity now per oapitia per day oi- week, whether it was moM OF less tben tham now? A. I isuppose I could give it to you; I could make out tbe isttaitement Q, Hofw kmig would it take? A. I think I could get it out this afternoon. Q. Before we go ait 5 o'clock? A. Yeei. 540 Q. Have you amy itmlpries&iian or knowledige as to wih.eitlh.er more OB" less work is dtoe now by each, eonvict per diay or weiek tihian was done before tibe last investiiigartioii two yeaire. agO'? A. I don't know as I would be oomipeitJent to judlge thM; it is somertlhing I dion't meddle witih the woirk up staiins. Q. Wouldn't tbe oreootrd! ®bow it? A. Yeia Q. Yon wouldn't know ais to ttibe quialitiy of thie work!? A. No. Q. Wbo would know ais to thiait? A. Our foreman itiheme; 'tihe aupeiinitlendient, Mir. Keraniedy. Eeeess. , AFTERNOON SESSION^ ThlomaH J. McKee: Examined by Mr. Onaig. Q. Wihjait is youir consecutlT© numbieir!? A. Two tlhloualanidl eigM bundaied and nineity. Q. What did you wamit to say to us? A. I waia oonvioted of MgHway robbeiy, ftpst dteginee, iini 188; I wiaisi sent to tihe New York State Ref onna.toTy ; I was there six monthis in tihe blaiok Built; I wais put ta We Mue; I was ini titue bluie unttH July b^oard, 1889 ; I was paiPoled; I went out Augusit sevenitlh] on pajrole to work for Hugh J. RUey, govemment contrajctor, in New Yoorik city, wihiie there my mother was taken >sick at Cwoton Dam; I went to see ben; I eitayed tihene from August to November and' came out and Totied fan the electLom and retuimed and eitayedl Hhieipe umtSl Febiruairy; in KhJe meanitame reportinig every monithl mnial Petamairiy wihiein I was aent down to my brothier, a membea" of Uhie poilSice f otroe, New York city, and he gave me tihirty-sievemi ddUlainsi, whAch I appoBoipiri- ated to my own usie, gettiiiig dmnk tu the bangaiin; I then stoyed away from home aaid wetnit to work for Mr. Smitth; I neponted my sSx months; in June, bettween June nikuth amd the twesnity-fiftih. Officer Fagan picked me up on Sixtieenrth sttirieeti, tooik mie to the ^tartion^hlorase, and HUdebirandit plaiced me im a caib audi took me over to Jersey, without taiking me before a judge; I waisi tak!eiiii to Ebnikai, amd amT«d there 11 o'clock aA night; Mi*. Brookway met me at the door, and says^ "Well, my boy, tecfe fori eduicartiott?" I siayis, " Yesi, sir;" I was haif drunik, I aidmiitt tihait), wihien I aanrived there, but sober enough to know what I was doing; hie tamed me over to Waitclunan Laaeniby amd I was pilaced i!a the neceiilving cells; not the solitary. Q. Did they puniish you there? A. Yes, sir; when I was retuTDiedl from pairole, l^ Mr. Brioiolkwiay. Q. Wiaait ils your complaint? A. Ttey traaisf erred) me for no dartiBie; Msp. Bmekway claimed my foUssi said. I had beeoo) in State prieiom; ihaib I wais a comvict; tMs I dlenied amd I wanted, proof of it, ajnidl this man, Mr. Hoppe, waisi stiandlilnig' oni thei gnaird-room floon -wliien he blxDaigihltl mie up toi put me iiii a redl suit; he says', " Doio't lie to me," audi he isitiruck ma in thie eaire. Q. Whta sitmck you? A Mir. Broiekwiajy; Mr. Hoppe saMi theire wais empliy benchteis in the founidiry; Mr. Brbicikway thfen asslgnied me tia tlue foundry, and kept me to the foundiry until Septemlber, when I was sholrt of task, and he took me down amd padldlted me; I irieceSvied! four cracks or se^ieM ciraicksi Q. Where did he Mtt you? A. Acirosis hfeire. Q. Wene you paddled' any otfeer time? A. Yesi, sSir. Q.''W!he!Pie did they hit you? A. AcrosiS hlere. - , Q. Any other place? A. STo, sir; I went before the boacd of managers and asked them for satisfaction; I wanted the charges proven I was aoi ex-couTict; Mr. Brockway wais standing behind the chair by the table and Mr. Wey, that gentleman's father, i was at tiie oente* of the table; Mr. Rathbone or Mr. Arnot was sitting at the endl of the table; Dr. Wey says: "What do you wieh, young man? Do you wish to seei the man?" I says: "Yes, sir; Mi*. Brofckway claims my father said I was an ex-convict; I want this to be proven; " Mr. Brockway turned around and says: "It is nice weather; " looking out of the windbw; as I turned my head to see whaiti Mr. Brockway was doing he hauled' off and hit me, and Mr. Wey turned his penoU up with the point up; Mr. Brockway went out amd Mr. Wey says: "Mr. Brockway will let you know all about it ; " when I stepped out in| the 'hall I asked Mr. Brockway would he tell me and he hauled off and struck me again; he then put me to work on brackets; I was working on brackets the next day. The witness was thei^ sworn: i Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Were you an inmate of the Elmira reformatory at one time? A. YeS, sir. Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York city. Q. What for? A. Highway robbery. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. No, sir. , , Q. Had a jury trial? A. Yes, sir. Q. And was cowvicted? A. Yes, sir. Q. When in the reformatory were you punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive while there blows upon your pei-son on any other points than on your back and hips? A. I received a scar the work? A. I could not db the work;. I tried hiaird. i 69' 546 Q.,Wh.o were present wiueax jaa wetre paddled? A. Mr. Winnii and Mr. Brockway; I don't know tihie ortJhjer. Q. What did Mr. Broickwiay say tO' you whien you went in th ■bath-room? A. He said I was reportted for hjollerdng on tjh gaJIery. Q. Thialt was tiha jQrst time? A Yes', sdir. Q. Whait was the second time? A. He told me I dAdb't do mi work; I had so many per cent bad work; them I wasi paddled. Q. Where were you hit? A. Over tlie boldy. Q. Anywhere etee? A. No; I was knocked down a couple o tunes; I fell down. Q. Why do you say you were knocked down otn fell down? A I couldn't help it; I wasi hit over the kidneya Q. Show where you were hit? (Witness iindioattleisi.) Q. ThM isn't your kidney? Dr. Wey. — That is the buttock. Mr. Qraig. — The end of the spinial column. Dr. Wey. — Yes; the ispitnal column extenidls down toi tlie amm Mr. Craig. — Is it th;e epiniai coirid? Dr. Wey. — I should say it wasi below the spinal coirid. Q. Ha/ve you told all about ithe second paddling? A. Yes. Q. Now, the third paddling? A. I wasi paddled fom the sam thing — ■ work. Q. Sow long after the second? A. About month after or twc Q. Were you paddled for flghrting also? A. Yeisi; but I was ia the rights. Q. When was that; which paddling wa^ it? A. A good whili after these. Q. State tbe third paddling? A. I don^t recollect whep I wa paddled for fightiug. ' Q. What did he do to you? A. He asked me; I had some ba< work and I losit nine mark® for flighting. Q. Did you fight? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Who did you fight with? A. With a mam that sitruck me i: the jaw first and went to use a bucket over my head; somie ma tihrowed dirt on him and he blamed me with it, and he sitruok m undeai the jaw and I knocked the man down. Q. How many blows did yoa receive thlat time? A Five. Q. WePe you pointed at befoire? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Anywhere else? A. Noi, sSr. Q. When were you paddled afterward? A That was the las time. Q. What were you transferred her for? A. I went up and aske Mr. Biiackway if he would please let me out of the fonndiiy and h said he would, and in a few days lafter that I was tramisferired 647 I hiaive a bum on my foot; I aocidenttlally goit buinned in tihe foiBiidry, and Mr. Broickway fed me oim breaid amid wiaJtieir. I Q. Fod" bow long? A. Tbree weeks. Q. Wbetne was it? A. Six hiundlried and eleyeii. Q. In yotuir own oeil? A. Yes, siLr; I was taifcep. over to anottlLer ceE. Q. An ordinary cell ? A. Yes,, sir; Mr. Wey; I asked him what was the reason he fed me on bread and water; he says', "Well, outside you have to pay for a doctor's bill; you diminish your food in here to pay for a doctor's bUl." Q. Where did you ask Dr. Wey that ? A. At the cell door. Q. Uo you claim there is a scar on your foot now ? A. Yes, sir. By Judge GrUbert: Q. Were . you struck in any other way except by the paddle while you were there ? A. No, sir. Q. What, if anything, do you know with reference to one of the inmates being burned with a hot iron ? A. I seen that man, named Buckley; he Yfus trying to get away; he dug a hole there, I guess, about five feet, I should judge, and about thtee or four feet back. Q. In what ? A. In the foundry under' the bench, and Murphy was handing' him down a pail of water and Mr. Randolph came and asked where Buckley was, and Murphy told him he didn't know, and he bappened to see him, and he sent out for Mr. Winnie, and Mr. Winnie came in and asked Where the man was, and he went over and got hold of a ladle or a screw of red hot iron I and he threw, it down in the hole and burned the man; I saw the man when he came up; he « as burned in the neck and on the arm. Q. Do you know what time in the day that was ? A. In the afternoon; I should judge it was about 1 or 2 o'clock; 2 or 3 o'clock. Q. Do you know the year and the month ? A. Yes, sir; it was in 1890; I think it Mas* either April or JNlarch. r Q. Did this man work in the same shop you did ? A. Yesi; right next bench to me. Q. Was he out to work the next day ? A. No, sir; laid in his cell. Q. Do you know how long he was kept in his cell after that ? A. I couldn't tell; I should judge a couple of months. Q. "yVas he in the hospital ? A. No, sir; he was in his cell, as far as I know. By Mr. Stanchfleld: ■ Q. Did you siee this performance of Winnie; were you present in tlhie foundry; did you see tihiat dtoe? A. Yes, sir; I was in the foundry. ; 548 By Judge Gilbert: Q. Describe that ladle of red-hot iron? A.I don't exactly; I think it was either a ladle or a screw; it is about thai^ big. Q. Was the molten iron thrown into the hole ? A. Yes, sir; it was red-hot. John B. Coary, being duly sworn, teeitifled: Examined by Mr. Craig: Q. Tell your story ? A. I was held down while I got kicked. Q. Begin at the beginning of that occurrence; where was it ? A. In the bath-room, on the twenty-third day, shortly a^ter Wash- ington's binthday, February, 1892. Q. ^Tio were present ? A. Sample, Mr. Brockway and Mr. Halpin. Q. What were you taken to the bath-room for ? A. I spoke to a man in the shop in regard to book business; I made some books, and they were locked in the cupbo'ard ; a man named Acker handed me the books, and I kept two of tbem; on that day or the day after I was taken out of ranks right below the armory, and the colonel asked me if I had any books; I franldy told hun I had a book; I produced this booli; says he, "Have you got any more," and I took the other one out of my shoe and gave it to him. Q. That is what you were sent to the bath-room for ? A. Yes. Q. What did Mr. Brockway say ? A. The first thing he asked me was it so, and the first thing I knew I went sprawling over the floor, from a punch by Mr. Brockway; I tried to plead with him and tried to explain it to him, but it wasn't no go. Q. When did he receive the punch? A. As soon as I got in there; he was fooling with his whiskers that way and he says: " Was tha't so; " and the first thing that' I' knew he hit me with the ring he had on his finger. Q. Where did he hit you? A. Over the eye. Q. Make any mark? A. He didn't hit me very hard; it was kind of swelled out there. Q. Didn't knock you dovra? A. Yes, sir. Q. What occurred then? A. He says: "Get over there and take your pants down; " I got over there and was helped^ to take my pants down; Halpin took my pants down and he spoke to me, and I went to turn my head around to speak to him, and tht first thing I Imew they threw me on the floor. Q. Who did? A. Mr. Halpin. Q. How did he throw you? A. Got hold of my neck and twistec it ai-ound and down I fell; I was wiUing to fall at the same tim to avoid the punishment he was giving me. , 549 Q. Who was giving punisbment then? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. What oocnrred on the floor? A. He put me over in 602. Q. The paddling wastft at an end then? A. After he put me on 'the floor Mr. Brockway kicked me; there is the mark. Q. Are you sure it was Mr. Brockway? A. I am sure it was Mr. Brockway; he was speaking to me at the time. Q. What did he say? A. Called me a criminal and one tMn^ and another, and told me I w£te a loafer, and some names like that, and took me unawares here. Q. Have yoiu a soar? A. There is one there. Mr. Craig. — WiU Dr. Wey kindly look at it? *Dr. Wey. — The scar is oblique from within outwards an inch and three-quarters from the middle line over the left eye, and half way between the eyebrow and the margin of the hairj- scalp. <3- What occurred after Mr. Brockway kicked' you? A. He says my eye was aU bunged up here where he hit me with the f>addie. Q. With the leaither part of the paddle? A. Yes, sir. ,Q. When you were on the floor do you mean? A. Yes; they clubbed me while I was down. Q. Did he hit you with the paddle before; he kicked you? A. Ye«, sir; three times he hit me; I Was hamging om to the' windows and he spoke to me, and I turned around toi him, and as I did Halpin twisted my neck. Q. What occurred first when you got down on the floor? A. He was speaking to me, if I ever do it again and all this buei- nesa, and he hit me with the paddle. Q. Where? A. All around the kidneys. Q. When you were down on the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he hit you on the head when you were on the floor? A. Yes; he would hit me any place he would get a chance; he says: " Get him out of here; " and made a shot at me and kicked me. Q. Was anything done to you after he kicked you? A. Took and dragged me out a® far as the door. Q. WTio did? A. Mr. Halpin and Mr. Sample, and put me up in 672, a screen cell. ,Q. How long were you kept there? A. Three days. Q. What was your diet? A. In the beginning I got hash, and at dinner time just the same as the rest, only I sent for the doctor. Q. What did you want the doctor for? A. In regard td my eye; my eye Was all swelled out; the doctor told me I deserved it. Q. Were you ever punished any other time there? A. Oh, yea, sir. Q. Where were you punished? A. I was there about three weeks and I got out of step one day, and the man told me if I didn't get in step he would punch me in the nose. 550 Q. Wlio told you? A. The lieutenauft ; he got a sihove at me and I turned around and give him a look and he gave me a report and says, "I am repoi'ting you for talldng;" I says, "All right;" " [ will give you another one, now," he says, " for answering back;'" I got mad, and says, " Make it a few more;" I was only a green man at the time, and i got three or fom* offences, and the firsit t})ing I knew I was locked in 601; that is where they chalk men in. , ^ Q. How were you punished ? A. I generally got from eleven to fifteen oi' twenty raps. Q. Where ? A. Paddled across the! kidneys* j Q. Where are your kidneys ? A. Here. ' Mr. Craig.^Tlhat is his kidney, isn't it? ^ . Dr. Wey. — No; that is way below. A. He hit me on the back and on the face. Q. How many times were you paddled there ? A. I was pad- dled more than fifteen times. Q. How many times were you hit over the head ? A. That is the first place he made a rap for me; he knew me. Q. Did you ever resist ? A. No; to tell you the truth, I was going to resist one time; I had an iron bar; T didn't get as( far asi Mr. Brockway with the bar; I had it in 601. Q. Did Mr. Brockway come to you in 001 ? A. No; IVIr. Lazenby and Mr. Murphy came to me and searched me like that, and run me down the hall to get me wanned up before they took me in the bath-room ; I meant to either get done or do' somebody else. Q. What did you do ? A. I was going, in case one came j, up, only one, that was all, I would jump out with the iron bar. Q. Knock him on the head ? A. Certainly. Q. Why didn't you? A. There were two men; th^y kflew me. Q, Did they find out you had the* iron bar ? A. No; I left it right there; to tell you the honest truth they were all dead on to me; I was always getting in trouble, talking to a man. Q. They knew you and they knew you were liable to resist; was tliat it ? A. No ; he knew I had a pretty bad temper, and knew me from going down there quite often. Q. Do you claim you have any other scars on you ? A. I lost a tooth ; I got a punch in the cheek here. . Q. When was that ? A. The first year I was^ here, latter part of 1891. Q. Where was it ? A. In the bath-room. Q. When you were being paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q. ■V\Tio punched you ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. How do you know, were you looking at him ? A. Yes- I generally ^know who punches me. 651 Q. Wlio were present ? A. Mr. Halpin and Mr. Sample; Mr. ^n,ple was feeling pretty good at the time. ' Q. What were you doing when he punched you ? A. I went in there, and he got looking at the reports, talking such and such a man, was it so; I siays, " Yes, sir; I admit it;'' the flrs.t. thing I knew I got a punch, and says, " Get over there;" I got over there, and paddled me until I wasn't hai'dly able to walk; after that tliey took me out of there, and after I got out I found I had a tooth gone. Q. You didn^'t know that before ? A. I didn't know it at the minute, I was taking all I was getting. Q. When did you find it ? A. When I got in 622 I found out my mouth .was all bleeding. Q. Did you know before that you were punched ? A. Oh, yes; I knew Uiat; that was the first thing I got; when I went in Mr, Brockway asked me was such and such facte; I told him. yes; I was talking to two men there; I denied one report; with that he told me I lied or something, and hit me with his fist; hit me right there. Q. On your right cheek ? A. Yes, sir. / Q. Show us where your toottih is gone? A. Right here. Q. Show it to Dr. Wey. (The witnesis exhibaits his month.) Dr. Wey. — -It is the first mwlar. Mr. Craig. — Are there any roots in? Dr. Wey. — No, isit. Mr. Graalg. — Might that tooth haive been knocked oait in the way he ^ates? Dr. Wey. — I should doniM it; such la tooth a;s that, so fax back I should' think it would be rery hard to break it off. The witness. — My jaw-bone is al broke there; it is all broke; the whole gums. Dr. Wey. — No eviidiemce there of breaikage. Might haive been a tooth, pulled oait there one time with a piece oif caries bone attached) to the tooth which would leave the little depression I feel there. Mr. Onaig. — fe his theory, pos[siible? Dr. Wey. — ■ I ^should veiry much douibt it. (Dr. Ransom looks at it.) Dr. Ransom. — Nedtheir tbe bone or process is broken. There is one. tooth absent on the left .''ide and one on the right side, the '. companion of this tooth; he complains of precisely the same in Mr Oraig.— Both the surgeons state the proicesis on the lower jaw just opposite the tooth of whi'ch the prisoner complains, is in predfeely the same ;atate as the one he diescrilbea 552 Dr. Eiansom. — Practically the same ' ilr. Oraig. — In your opinion, might tbe tooth in the upper right jaw been removed by the blow fvam outside witlh tihe fist? Dp. KiamsomL — I should consider it extremely doubtful. That tooth, if the tooth was fm-ther forward, but a molair tooth is very difQcuilt to knock out; I never hiive iseen it dona. A tooth in that locality is veiy difficult to dislodge. Q. You s^av, Mr. Bwckway hit you with ihis fist? A. Yes, sir. Q. "V\Tiere'did he hit you? A Right there. Q. Point? A. Eight thei-e. Q. The right side of the face; w-hfm was it after yon <'iitere(i the room that he hit yoai? A. Just as i^oon ap I got in tiherr he asked me was it so, pulled out a bunch of repoirts, and told me I was getting too many repoartsi; if you get four yellow reports' you lose oiif marlc. Q. \Miere Avais he stumdins- when you went in the roam? A. Right by the radiator on the left-hand side a.bouit four feet from the door. Q. ^Tien did ,\-xyu first diworer your tootih was gone? A. M'hen I got in (;22. Q. Did you see your tooth afterward? A- Noi, sir; I did not. Q. Ycra weren't paddled on that occasion? A. Oh, yes; I was. Q. He took you over and paddled you? A. As soon as he hit me they got me over tL(^re and pulled down my pants and flogged me anvAvhere they conld hit me. Q. ^Miere did they hit you? A. AH over; from here up to there and ovei" the head. Q. Hhow how far he hit you np? A He hit me from, here toi there. yh: Oraiig. — I should say from thei butltocks up above the kidneTO. > Q. Did he hit you over the head? A. Yes, sir. Q. How^ many times? A. On that occasion he hit me only tmce. Q. Leave any mai-ks? A. Just left the mairk of the paddle; that was aU; every time he hit you it wai* black and tolnw. Q. Are there any marlcs on your buttock no^^•? A. I don't think there are. Q. Have you anything else you want to ^staAe? A. Yes, sir; sliartly before I came here I was locked up and Dr. Bamsom can tell you I was only here about ten daysi and they offered — wanted to put me on crutches; I was offered a pair of cratches by one of the keepers and canes and one thing and another; Mr. Hanley oailed the attention of the doctor, I believe, and got me np in the hospital; the doctor examined me; I don't know what opoDilon 653 * lie came to, but lie let mie in tlhle hloBipital, amd! I lajy beate in tjie hoisipditial. ' < Q. How- long were yoiu in thie, hostpital? A. I was heaie atooiut ten diaysi, I ttilnk. '■ i Q. Shiortly before yooi weinfe transferiried! tope, you were locked up? A. I was cliained diown in th.e aoiitiairy; ithiey wecne on my leigs and <)n my hands. Q. WHat were you chjadned for? A. On tbJfe btoiok business; ' there weire four of us, a man named Daley, a man thlat went out of hene isihortiy, 4426; Fay, anothier man, iamoittoeiri, Aokeaa, 3633; lie was sent to Auburn; he cam.e down ome day, the colonel did, amd ^ asked me was I going to tell him about thisi book affailr; I toldi,him I didn't knjorw anything more aibout it thiam I made two of the boioii, andl I told him I didn't taike ttaem out of thle cupiboaird; I didn't tell him who did take them out; anyhow lue^ gave me a kick i!n the ribs and told me, I was lying; Mir. Blrockway came down and took me up to the bath-room thiat afiternoon, and they pladdled me once moire; I got paddled twice for that - Q|. How long was that before you came heire? A. I don't exaictly know the date.' Q. Whiy did you say you were in the hiospitai heire? A. Ttot was fpomj getting chiained down. Q. How llong were yoiu chiained down? A. I was locked in 72, and I wais chained down Teay near two months off and on; they let me out for about twoi weeks], I think. Q. What did they |*ujt you back for? A. I got taLding in tlie sihiop to a man and I got fooling airound; I got talking to a man amid one thing and another. Q. Were you fooling around mem? A. Yes; just shoving them and one thing and amolliher; , thiatl isi all; I was nearly knocked crazy ; I thiok I am copazy from getting paddlied so much, too. Q. HJow long do you make it you were chained dbwn? A. I wiais chained down three or four nights and daysL Q. How long were you confined in the cell? A. I wias ia 672; I don't know how long; the doctor ought to tell you; I spoike to hiTTt ome morning aibout my eye; my eye was all out like that; he told me I deserved it; I didn't think I was coming up here or I might have tried and remembered; I got am awful deal down there. . ' By Mr. Litchfield: Q. I thought you said you were chained down for two months? A. I was in the dark cell off amd on for twoi monhs; I was chained down three nights and four days. 70 554 Q. Wbaib did jrei; you may go on and istate what you were nibout ^to say then? A. I was tellling about where I was trying at Eknira to get along as good as I could and I was reported and talten down to the batth-room, and Mr. Brockway paddled me, and after he gave me a couple of riajp|S' I commenced hoUeriing, 558 and TViimie Jiit me iti ihe eye witli hw fist; gave me a black eye; I keipt quite ^agadm, and BTorkway paddled me ajgain; T turned my head to Brockway, and lie hit me over the head wiih the sti-aip; I kept quiite again and he jmddled me again untM he was done; as I went out he gave me a push. Q. Who did? A. Brockway; and I fell, and as I fall he kicked me in the side. Q. WTio did? A. Brockway. Q. Did you see him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where; in the isdde? A. Rilght here. Q. TVTT.'a,t "Wias ^lour consecutivei number? A. Three thoujsa,nd fonir hundred and thiirty-tm^o. Q. What else occurred on that occiaeion, if anything? A. Thai was a;H. Q. Then you were taken out ? A. Yes. Q. Were you paddled any other time ? A. No, sir; that was the only time. Q. What were you x)addled for? A. Being repoirted for talking. Q. Show ^^'here you were kickedi on the side ? A. Right here. Q. How long wais this before? A. This wais in 1889, montli of August. Q. When were you tra nsfen-ed herei? A. June 9, 1892. Q. Hut of the sand, when I saw Murphy run over and Buckley lay iown in the hole. Q. Who dug it? A. I couldn't say; I never noticed the men. Q. He was down there to escape? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where was it, in the foundry? A. Yes, sir; after I saw him there Murphy walks over and covers him up with a little dirt. Q. Who was Murphy? A. An inmate. Q. So as to conceal him ? A. After he got him covered up with iirt he put a box over hitn; aft.er that he went fooling around the sand again. Murphy did, and Eandolph came in and looked wound for Buckley and could not find him ; he was foreman of the foundry; after that he went outside tO' look for Buckley and KJuldn't find him; and he siaw Murphy and mistrusted Murphy wae ioing something; Murphy was placing some more boxes over 30 it would not be noticed; Eandolph went out to the cujwla and then Winnie came in and looked at the piace, and Winnie sent :. 563 Eandolph. out for a ladle, which, he came in, with, half a ladle of 'iron; Winnie makes a hole in the center of the sand; the man don't m'ake a moT^ or stir. , Q. H« pouned molten iinora through that hole? A. Yes; about half 'a ladle of molten iron. ■ Q. Do you know whether it reached the man,^ A. I should say lit dlid on some parfe of his pants; he isient Mr. Elandolph, out for a red-hot ixoai; it is used for opening the cupola; he caime with the reid-hot iron and 'run the iron dtown ajcross up by the man.'s head amid buruteid hilmi by the neck. Q. Was tihat beftore he aekedi the man to com.e out? A. Yesi, me. • ' ' I Q. No one told thiait man tO' come ouft before he wias bumed? A. No, siop. Q. Had the mam been told to come out of thiajt hole befoire he waJs touched with tlie htot iron? A. Noi, sir. Q. Y50U ane sure of tfeatt? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Didn't Mr. Wimuie 'oall to him at all? A. No, siir; he looked at the place amid isent the man out for the ladle of iron. Q. Wh-o was present? A. Several men ai^ound me; Litvingstone was one mian; he is an inmiaJte. Q. Any keepiers there? A. There was a f^iremam there; Ean- dolph waa there. Q. Is he 'there now? A. I couldn't siay. i ■ Q. Who else was thiere? A. Several icupolaJ men laiwmd' there; I think Mr. Kerr wlas there; he came over 'aifteir the man go* out of the hole. Q. Anybody else that you rememeiber? A. No, sir. Q. Any other complainit you want toi miake to usi? A. While I was up to Elmir'a I laid in several times iln my akiom; I wlaS not able to go to work, and Dr. Wey gave me several cihociolate reploirtfe that I tihinik I did mot deserve. Q. What; was the mlattem with you? A. I had a fever^ I think, and still he sent me out to the shop to work. Q. Do you know whJat is the matter with you now? A. Yes, sir; rheiimatii^im;. I got 'it in,' that institution. ' , Q. Is lit chroniic Aeumataism or acute? A. Th^ait Dr. Wey will tell, you. ' i i III Dr. Eansom. — He iis suffefrfng now from arti'culate iriheumatism, the kniee- joint especilally. Mr. Litchfield. — That mlay come frolm dampness; expojsuire to '^weathei^? Dr. Eamlsom. — Yes, sir; oo'nistitutitoal Condlti'on. Q. How' many feet aiway were you standing when you isaw the iron poured into the hole? A. I gihould eay It was about eight feet. 564 Q. From where tlie hole was? A. Yes, sir. Q. From where the iron was pouTed in? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you at yoiur own worlc-ibenicih? A. I was at my own work-bench, only I stood by the stoive. Q. Did you stop Awrk to look? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you stop work? A. UmtU I saiw the mam jump out of the hola Q. Was he bunned? A. Yes; burned aorose the neek; there -wm a scar aibout that long (inditaatimig) from the looks. , Q. Wliait -was done with him after thait? A. He was taken into Ms room and stayed there about two months. Q. How do you know — did you see him there? A. I tvas told he was in his room, becaiuse he got tramjsf einred a:£terwaird. Q. Was he working in the same Aop with yon before thait? A. YeSj sir. Q. You didn't s(»e"him in the shop afterward? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know whei-e he was transferred? A. To Atiburm. Q. Any other complaint that tou have to make? A. No, sir. Ohairl^ Moon, recalled : Examined by Mr. Craig: Q. We want now the comparaitive quantity between October, 1891, and October, 1892; peiriod before the punislmients were abolished and period now? A. -Talse any hi (these mionthis, :\rarch, April or May, 1892, or June; October, 1891, numlber of shii'bs made 1,700 6-12 dozen, 100 men. Q. TMiat is the per eapitaj? A. We don/t fignirie it out that way; we figure that out monthly. Q. Whialt Ls the per capita? A. Sevenity-two! amdi nine-twelfths dozen daily aveiajie during the year; eighty -eight and ^ix-itwelfbhs daily average; a daily average of the men sietvenlty-itwo and nimie- twelfthte for the nine naOniths. Q. I want to get ait whertlher the men do mioirie work now or less than when you paddled? A. I oan^t tel you whether ttihere was a man punished hene from one montlh to siLx monithR Q. You Know there weirie punishm.ents in O'cltolber, 1891, paddling and hanging up; don^t you? A. I suppose thesne were from the books; I couldm'it swear to it. Q. Whaft wais the nnmlbetr of ishirts per oaipSjtia per week or month priioT to the abolishing of tte hanging up and paddling, and whatt is the per capitlaj mow? A. Octbben, 1891, we made 1,700 6-12 dozen shiPfcs; 100 miemi. Q. Take Octoiber, 1892? A. They were not making shirtsi then; June, 1892, nnmber of shitntisi made during thiati mionith was 1,586 6-12; average number of men ninetly-flve and one tweraty- sisth. , 566 Q. ,Per capiita^' were iSamxt mone sMrte miadie iln Octtioibleir, 1891, oir in June, 1892? A. More sihirtis made in Octoiber, 1891, per man. Q. Haw mjainrf miare? A. One humdired and floiuiPteeni dOzem. Q. HJoiw miany per mam mx)re? A. I cooildn't teE you ihaib; tJlere mnlgJit ihiaTe been mioire wMkinig diaysi 'in Octoiber tJuaiii in .June; ,yioiu want to know whiait work wais donie wihen tilie punishniemits were going on, and yooi wamt' .to know what work thiey wePe doing after itWat was 'ajboilMied? Q. Yesl? A. I will sient it to yoiu. Adjourned to IMday, NovembietP 10, 1893, 9, a. m., aifc Auibium State pird'Sion. Aubum, Friday, 'Nov. 10, 1893, 9. a. m. Thie conMnittee mfet punsuamt to ajdjoiurmnenit Plrwent'. — Edward H. litcMeld. Mp. LitoMeld. — Before, iprioicieediag I should! 'sitate ttot itihte obaiirjiniaji! of our commiittee, Mr. Craigj is dlettladlnied by illnassi, asad Ke hlais wriititen to us requiesttSnig us toi pawceed withloiut waitijng for him. My other coUeaigue, Dn. Stephemi Smith, m alsoi detainied by iserdofli'S illness iii his family amd ciam niortl be pireiseMt, and if we pwoeed, I think, it ehjoiuld be by the comsient' of the parfties entered on- the mecoird. , Miti. StaiQichfleld. — We have nio oibijeicitd0n. Jaanies najrneU., being duly swoimi, tesitMedl: Examinied by Judgei Grilbeir*: The same statement was made to this witness as tO' the wit- nesses aitl Daraniemoirtai State prislon. Q. Wherie wane yoiu sent fitom? A. New York. Q. Were you first sienifc to the refoiima^toiry? A. Yesi, sdir. Q. When were you flrisit eieint to the refoimniajtlotry? A. In April, 1890. Q. Hot whalt? A. G-rand! larceny. Q. Did youi plead guilly? A. Yeia, sir. Q. How long were you iini the reformiaittepy? A. I was thene not quite a year. i i Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offence before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever been in any asylum ? A. Yes, sir; Juvenile asylum. Q. Whereabouts ? A. About One Hundred and Fifty-fifth street, I think it is. Q. It was in New York ? A. Yes, sir. Q. New York House of Refuge ? A. Yes, sir. Q. While in the reformatory were you punished ? A. Yes, sir. 56« Q. Paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times ? A. From seven to nine times. Q. I mean (tow many different times were you taken to the bartli-room ? A. Seven to nine times. Q. What were you sent there the first time for ? A. For having too many reports and not doing my task. • Q. Were you sent to the batli-room for ajiy more serious charge than that ? A. No, sir. Q. So that, in every instance when you were sent to the bath- room, it was because you had failed in performing your tasks ? A. Not always; sometimes I would get quite a niunber of reports for talking and turning my head. Q. Had you ever been sent to the bath-room because you had committed any crime, stealing, or anything like that ? A. No, sir. Q. Sure of that ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Or for assaulting an oflScer ? A. Never asisaulted an oflfloer while I was there. Q. Weren't you once sent to the bath-roon^ because of having taken an umbrella ? A. Not to my recollection. Q. As you understand it, you ,were sent to the bath-room each of these occasions, from seven to nine different occasions, for not performing your task ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it a task you were to perform in school or work ? A. Work. Q. While being punished were you struck on any other part of your body except on the back ? A. He made a couple of attempts to do it; he struck me in the face, and I went down; right across the face with a strap; across the eye. Q. State the circumstances relating to that punishment ? A. As soon as he got done paddling mef, I happened to turn around to go out, when he tpld me to go out, and I turned my head around to go out, and he struck me across the face with his paddle. Q. Leave any marks ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. What mark did it make upon your face ? A. Made a lump right here (indicating). Q. Where ? A. Eight across the eye. Q. (Mr. litchfleld.) The left eye^brow? A. YeB, Bir., Q. What ktn.d of a mark ? A. Eed mark. Q. Was it anything more than a red mark, was it black andl blue ? A. It was getting black and blue. Q. Any other marks made upon you ? A. Across the kidneys here, Q. What mark was there across your back ? A. Three or four of them; black and blue. Q. That was upon the occasion when you say you said some- thing about your falling ? A. I didn't speak about falling. 667 Q. Upon any oither occasion were j Q. Wete yotu occupying any official poisitiom in the prison? A. No, sir; I was in the blacksmith shop' and umbrella shop. Q. What is yonr age? A. I was 16 when I went there. Q. When you wene traiusferred to the Aubumi prison you were about 17? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was it you wer^e charged with having stolen? ' A. I broke in a jewelry store window. Q. What did yolu take? A. Watches and rings. Q. Anyone else with you? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. How many? A. One. Q. Was he convicted? A. No, sir. Q. Was he sent to prison? A. No-, sir; I turned him out of it; I pleaded guilty and he golt let go. Q. As you understand it, what is the maximum length of time that yoiu may be imprisoned? A. Five yeans. Q. Have you parents living? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? A. New York. Q. Is -your father in business there? A. Blacksmith. Q. Either of your pairents or your brothers or sisters been con- victed of any offense? A. I haven't any brothers or siisters. Q. Any of your near relatives? A. No, sir. Q. You are the only one in the family, so far as you know, that has been convicted of aJiy offense? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you pleaided guUty was there anything said to you to the effect' if you went to,Elmira and conducted yourself prop- erly your conflnement would be short? A. Yes, sir; Judge Fitz- gerald told me that. Q. Are you sure you didn't commit some offense in the reforma- lory which caused them' to send you here to this prison? A. No, sir. Q. Are you positive the only thing about it was you failed to perform your tasks there? A. I was getting too many reports; talking and turning my head. 668 Q. And for taUdug aaid turnimg your head your sentence was changed STibstantiailly from confinement in the reformatory to imprisonment here at Anbnm for the full maximum length of time imposed? A. Yes, sir. Q. I am quite anxious to knoiwi whether or no you may nolt be mistaken in reference to the reason why this change was made, because it seems to me pretty hard? A. All I ciin give the reason is this; there was nothing said to me at all; I was in the blacksmith shop working right along, and getting along flmt-rate. Q. In the black suit? A. Yes, sir; and one day McLaughlin came down and took me out and challced me in for two weeks. Q. Were you ever charged with stealing molasses? A. Yes, sir; that was when T first went there; I wasn't there two' weelvs. Q. "What was there about' that? A. I took a little of my room- mate's molasses, and he went and told an ofQcer there, and I got a chocolate report. Q. You had a room-mate? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is there about the molasses? A. I took a little of his molasses. ' Q. What is there about molasses being in your cells? A. I broke my jar; I didn't have any. Q. A certain amount placed ia the ceU for each inmate? A. Yes, sir. Q. There was a certain amount placed in your cell for yourself, and a certain amount fori your room-mate? A. Yes, sir. Q. You took some of your room-mate's molasses? A. Yes, sir. Q. That belonged to Mm? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is that the only stealing you were guilty of while you were there? A. That is about tiie only one I can think of. Q. Was there any other? A. I have took umbrellas, but I don't remember of getting caught at it. Q. "V\Tiat do YOU mean by taking imibrellas ? A. I was tipping a,nd (tying in, and I couldn't do my task, and I took the umbrellas behind me. Q. Did you take them for the purpose of disposing of them or using them ? A. Using them for myself, toi get my task done. Q. How could you use an mnbreUa in the reformatory ? A. Four o'clock he would come around and take up all the umbrellas; I would only have tWenty done some days, and the task was twenity-seven, and I would take seven, umbrellas, and my tasik would be done. Q. If you lacked seven you would talce seven from some other person ? A. No; it was fixing up the old umbrellas on a bench right by me, and when he would get don6 with it I would talie it. Q. You would take the umbrellas that had been finished by one iDmate and put them with the number you should have flniished ? ' 569 A, This man was not on a task; he wais doing umbrellais that were broke. , Q. You took a oeriain number to fill up your complemen.t ? A; Yes, sir. ' ' , Q. You didn'it dispose of them ? A. No, sir. Q. Or talie them out of the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. You were marked in for that and you were punisbed ? A. I never was punislhed for that, not as I recollect of. Q._ You wei'e once charged with theft, were you not, and you were puniisbed the first time for tihat? A. No; I don't recollect I was ever punisbed for it; I know when I took an umbrella I got a chocolate report for it, but nobody ever caught me that I , recollect. Q. Isn't it, true before you were pimished at all that you had been warned several times; there had been several reports made against you, and finally reports to the number of about /fifty -one before you were punished ? A. Never. Q. Wasn't complaint made, against you for defacing the W9II ? i\. Yes, sir. ■Q. Weren't you marked in for that ? A. No, sir. i Q. Weren't you pimished for that ? A. No, sir. Q. The date that the complaint was, made against you was in June, 1890; do you remember being punished in. June, 1890 ? A. I know when I defaced the wall, but I didn't go down the next day for it; I went down about three days afterward. Q. Weren't you punished ? A. Yes; I never knew it was for that, th.ough. ' Q. In May, 1890, weren't you charged with theft, and weren't you punished in May, 1890 ? A. I migM have been. Q. That was the first time you were punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you. punished again in August, for stealing umbrellas, that was the charge made against you ? A. I don't recollect. ^ , Q. Didn't they charge you with lying about it ? A. No, sir. Q. You didn't tell them you stole an. umbrella ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You didn't tell them you had taken any more ? A. No, dr. Q. In November, 1890, weren't you again punished for lying ? A. I don't recollect; I pass 'all recoHectiori of that place. Q. Isn't it true that you were taken to the bath-room eight or nine times, but on three occasions you were 'simply admonislied, you weren't punished ? A. That might be. Q. And you were only putished five times ? A. Oh, I was paddled more than that. Q. How many blows were you struck one time, the greatest number ? A. From twelve to fifteen. 72 570 By Mr. LitcMeld: Q. Did you ever count the number of blows while they were being given, to you ? A. I never counted them. Q. So it is only guess-work on your part ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever in the solitary cells ? A. I never was in the solitary ceUsi; but I was chalked in on the flrsit gallery twO' weeks. Q. Before you were paddled, didm't you recei-^'e notice;^ wamimg you unless you inipiroived in your cooaduct you would be pmnlshed? A. Everybody receives that. Q. You had. su^ch notices? A. Ye,si eir. Q. They were typawritten notices? A. Yes, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you know how old you were T\'hen yom were sent to the houise of refuge? A. I never was in the house of refiuga Q. What do you isay you were in? A. Juvenile lasylimi. Q. Do you know hoiw old you Avere when you were sent thene? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know who sent yoiu there? A. My mother. Q. Do you know why phe sent you there? A. Not going toi school. Q. Were you punished while you were in the asyluim? A. No one gets punished there like you did in Elmira ; you hold out your hand there, and I was only a little fellow. By Mr. Litchfield: ; Q. I see you have a scar on A'our foreheaid; where did yoiu obtadiQ that sear? A. I fell down in the cellar at — Q. (Interrujptimg.) That was when you were a little b<}y? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whem you lare discharged from here have you any home to go to? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where? A. New York. Q. Your parents ? , A. Yesi, sir. Q. In these raiiouB offenses that have been referred to, olaiLmed you committed in the,reformiatory; did you intend toi comjmit crime there; did you understand you were committiimg crime at the time, and did j-ou intend to do it? A. No, sir. Q. I ask this for the purpose of finding out whether or no you are inclined to commit criminal acts? A. I didn't like to go down in the bath-room so often for not doing my task, soi I had to yet nu task done one way or the*other. Q. Weren't you able to perform your task if yoiu had been diligent and applied yourself thoroughly? A. I wasn't able to do my taj^k the firet six months, I had to talce the umbrellas from the man 'behind me; noibody in that shop can do that task 571 the first six mooo/tlus; I have seen himdiredis of men in the jsaane fix I was; they jvooild igo down in the tath-room, every onei of them. Q. The reason why yiou-took these TunlbreBas was to avoid the punisihmenjt you were receaving in the bath-room? A. Yeis, sir; I eofuldn't stand it. Q. After receiving tha punijshm.ent, wereai't you then able to perform your task? A. After six months they put me 'up front, and I had to do my task as hard asi I could do it; took me every mjinute of eight hours to do it too. Q. What has your conduct been here; have you been punisihed here? A. Yes, sir. Q. What for? A. Kefusing to wwk. Q. In what oQuanmer were you punished here? A. I was in the ^creen ceU. , Q. How long a itime? A. Three days. Q. Chained? A. No, sir. Q. Why did you refuse to doi your work here? A. They had a Oonvict fOireman over me here,^and I wouldn't stand him. Q. They put a convict foreanam over you and you wouldn't stamd that? A. Noi, sir. Q. There were convict foremen over you in Eimira? A. I had to take ilt there. Q. Do you have tobacco here? A. Yes, sir. Q. CJhewing and smoking? A. Not smoking; chewing. Q. Are you put in school here in any way? A. No, isir. Q. Taught anything from books? A. No, sir. Q. Simply required to work? A. That ijs all. Q. What iis your employment here? A. Woodcarving. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. dam you read and write? A. Yes^ sir. By Judge GUberti: Q. I am requested toi ask you if you have been interviewed by Mr. Boeder or Mr. WJiite? A. Yes, sir. iUbert Jolivet, being duly sworn, tastbified: . Examined by Judge G-Ubert: i Jpidge Gilbert. — I propose to state, as I underetand it, th^ object of calling thi^ witness, as well as the calling of the first witness, and calling one or two other witnesiseB, is to show the injustice that may arise under the law as it now is, relating to the management of the Eimira reformatory, and relating to the confinement of convictis in that institution. That is, there is a great deaJ of complaint over the alleged fact! that young lads 672 tluat are sent to the reformatory for tlie purpose of being reformed are transferred to State prison wliere they are compelled to ufidergo the full maximum punishmiefflt, wiitihout 'having com- mitted any real offense, or without there being any good reason why the transfer should be made._ In skaeb, they think the penalty of the imprisonment should Bot be changed from the reformatory' to a State prisoni for slight causes. The same statement was made to this witness as to the jteior witnesses. Q. Have you been comflned in the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. When were you sent there? A. I arrived there the 25th of February, 1890. Q. From what place? A. Troy. Q. For what offense? A. Burglary, third degree. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yesy sir. Q. What was your age when you were sent there? A. Sixteen. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before that? A, No, sir. !* Q. Had you ever been in prison before that? A. I had been in th.e house of refuge. Q. Where? A. Randall's Island. Q. How long were you there? A. A year and nine months. Q. T\Tiat were you sent there for? A. My father had me seoit there. Q. Why? A. I didn't behave myself. Q. In what respect? A. I was running around, kept away from home. ^ Q. Because you wouldn^t stay home? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you charged with any offense; didn't yom commit any crime? A. No, sir; not when I went there. Q. Not until you were sent to the reformatory? A. No, sir; I committed one, but I was let goi; I was desltroying property. Q. Weren't you convicted' for that? A. No, sir; I was dis' changed. / Q. You say positively you never was in any prison before? A. Except the refuge Q. While in the reformatory were you punished'? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times? A. Punished about six times. Q. For what? A. Talking and fooling and such things like that. Q. What do you mean by fooling? A. I would turn around in the shop. Q. Did you ever have any controversies with! the inmates? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Occasional fighting? A. No, sir; I never fought there. 673 Q. When you were punished upon what part of your body were the blowB struck? A. Eighttl there (mdicatimg). Q. Were you sttuck upon any other part of your body? A. On the head; when I wouldn't turn my head right. ^ Q. How many times were you struok o^ver the head? A. Couple of times. Q. Was that all? A. That was all. Q. During the four or five punishments you had? A. The first time I went down there. Q. Did you receive any Mowsi oTer the head after thiait? A. Not after I was down there a couple of tlinies. Q. Whiasb were you struck over the head with? A. Hamdliei of the isitrap. Q. Jaea,ve any marks, upon your face or head? A. No, sir. Q. Q. Any member of your family been convicted of any crime ? A. No, sir. Q. When yon are discharged you have a home to go to ? A. Yes, sir; I have a good home and decent family; it was the down- fall of myself. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you not understand if you failed to make the whole number on one day, buit at tihie end of the mointh yon miaide enioiuigh to cover the deflciency; do you not understand you were given) ci'ediii for that ? A. On the tub legs I was working om there was no oiredit at all; no ci'edit given, nio maitteir whiethen you pat up sixteen molds. Q. If you made only twenty molds one day and in th.e course of the monitJiis you were able to oatchi uip the otihiep teni, you weire not given oredit for it? A. No, isiir. Q. Was it not the rule of the refoTmiaitoiry you should be given orediit for it? A. Yes; whjeaii yoiu were wwrMuig om the beiwjh; when I worked on the tub legs, I didn't geib no credLt for the work I done; we were allowed on amy day's work we put up. Q. Do yon know of your own fcniowledge you were not given oredlit for the extra work you did? A. Yes, sir; I know of my own knowledge I never was given credit for it; there wajs no trouble completing it when I had a majn to help m© in doing it. Q. Alone you could not complete the 'Hiirty? A. I could if T went tio work like a horae and get nothing to eait for it. Q. Did you ever complete youir enitire number of thirty? A. No, sir; I could complete twenty mold allowed for one man tio do; thirty for two men; I comiplleted twenty. 581 By Judge Giltoeirit: Q- Do I undenstamd you 1x> isiay, whale working at itihis work, two men worked together, when one worked alone twenty molds was a day's work? A. Yes, sdir. Q. When two men, worked together upon the same molds then thiTty TTOS a day's woirik? A. Yesi, s|Lr. Q. And i when you worked ^alooie you' could ajooom.plish your task of twenty? A. Yesi, isSr. Q. But you couldn't aicoompllBih. tine task of thirty working wdlth the other maul?- A. I could accomplsh it, but if I didn't have him I couldn't accomplish it; I couldn't put up thirty molds with- out I had a miam working with me. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you not undensamd twetnty wals ai task foir a single man and thirty for la mian and a laborer? A. Yes, sir. (ji. In that case you were able to do twenty ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you were able to dO' the thilrty whan you had a laboirer? A. Yea, sir J I fulifiUed my task all right, but when it came to be bad wo(rk I got the nepOirtis foir it. Q. You could fill the tlaick biut coudn't dW the work well? A. Whlen I got cold' inom I couldn't poun my woirk. By Judge Grilbiert: Q. Yqu were reported foi; diefecitiTB work; inuperfectb work? A. Yes, sir. Q. And not for not havimg molded ithe numiber of molds required? A. When I went ou tfalatt paitteimi flusiti, when' we get om a new pattern we are isupppised to get what they ciail a six day'si average finst day, for task next day, thTeie-quiatrrtier task, and isia ou; I went on thioBie famcy tub legs, aud' I didin't knjow I was ou the fuU task, twenty molds, aud I wals ruuiiing .there for not putting up ttwenrty, latnd I got reporlts for that; short amid ibad at the siame time. Q. Weren''t you accused while iu the reformiataty of lying? A. To whoml? Q. I don't know? A. liTo, sir; I uever lied to anybody. Q. Weren't you taken to the bath-room m July, 1892, for that reasom? A. No, sir; it wasu't for that reason at all; it was for talking. Q'. Weren't you taken to the bath-room' im August, 1892, for dis- obedience; not obeying orders!? A. No, sir. Q. Weren't you admomilshed by writtein notioesi or typewritten Diottibea, some iten or tw^elve timiesi, before you were taken to the bath-roomi? A. No, sdr; I got three notices while I wasi there; when I went into the bath-room Mr, Broickway reiad' the reports 582 aver to me; sartj riglit in fromit of me^ amd reaxJ Ijlie repoiPts; what I was gieltttSlig pamaBliieid for; read every report I had; who I wias taJMng wiith. By Mr. Litohfleld: Q. Do you know why you were tramaf erred toi Auburn prison? A. No, siP; that is what I would like to know. By Judge GrUbert: Q. Did you request to be sent to prison? A. Yes, sir; I did when I went there flrist!, I went up and told Mr. Brockway I would like to go where I oooild get something to eat, for I was starved out with the work I was doing. Q. What was the food you received? A. We got a ration of soup there, it was all in one pan'; you run your ohaiuce if you got any meat; you goit all the bread you wanted, buit you oouldn't vei"y well live on bread. Q. Before you were transferred to this prison wereh^t you noti- fied you were to be transfewed? A. No, sir; I was not; never notified until I was taken out of my room, that nighitl Q. What time of day were you taken' from the reformatory? A. Six o'ol'ock in the morning. r Q. You didn't know anything about it until the nigh.t before? A. The day I went in the red suit I was' taken out of my room that night for school; after all was looked up, andl I wient to the solitary, and I seen u lot of men all looked up with shackles on thedr feet, t^vo men together. Q. You were taken to the solitary? A. Yee^ ear. Q. Were you chained? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you requested to be transferred to the prison ? A. I requested when I went there flrst, because I didn't like the place, but after I tihought I could stay there and get! along the best I could, I wouldn't lose my, citizenship, and I would go out better. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. How long after you were sent to the reformatory did you make that request? A. I think i't: was the second month I was there. Q. If a man makes a request to be sent to Statle prison is it necessary or customary to notify him in advance? A. No, sir; Mr. Brockway told me he wouldn't send me to prison; he never give me. a notice he was going to send me here. Q. You at no time withdrew your request to be sent to the prison, you didn't notify Mr. Brockway you had changed your mind? A. No, sir; I knew he would never send me if I could da my task; I suppose he got sick of me,| beeaiuse I went in the 583 red suit again; I went up and seen liim the day* I goib the labor report; I didn't ha,Ye any flask or sand to do the TS"oirk with; I asked him if he would cancel it, and he said he would see about it, and I got a chocolate report for having it investigated. Q. Were you redubed to the r'ed-suit grade more than onoe? A. Twice; that was my second time. Q. Because Mr. Hoppe failed toi cancel an untruthful repoJft? A. Yes, sir; that report I got would save me for^ losing a mark; I yvouldn't have went in the red suit. that time if I hadn't lost that mark; I asked Mr. Hoppe to do me a favor to cancel that, report, and he wouldn't do it. Q. Did you have, a heaodng at that time before, the officei's or any of them? A. Yes, sir; I did, Q. Who was it made before? A. It was made before me and two other coamots. ' Q. What offlcers? A. You mean the man that gave me the report? Q. You said there was an investigation, who was that investiga- tion before? A. Before the school secretary, I and ancjther otfiicer that was on the stand. Q. Was Mr. Hoptpe, one of those? A. No, sir. Q. Was he present when the investigation occurred? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know what the repont was that was made by those oflflcers? A. Labor report; they told I stopped molding befbre the whistle blew to shut down; I admitted I did stop molding, but I was clamping my mold for the iron to come down. Q. Were those ditizens! officers? A. Noi, Siiir. Q. I didn't understand you, the school secretary was a civilian ofQcer? A. Yes, sii". Q. He was not a convict officei'? A. No', sir. Q. Who wajS the other officier? A. Only one officer, and fthat was the one that gave me jbl report. Q. You were tiriied before ^two officers, or school secretairy and one convict officer? A. Yes, sir. Q. The co'nvict officer was thei one whoi made a report against you? A. Mr. Van Etten; the school secretary tried me. Q. You were tried before one man? A. He was the one, and the other man, Mr. Van Etten and the conviiot; they. were the two I was before. Q. What was the name of the oonviot? A. Shetland; he was out on parole and came back again. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Were other convict^ brought before *hofee offioens to make their start ements? A.Yesi, sir; the m^ that workBd next toi me; his name was Foresit. ■584 Q. Did lie testify in joav favor? A. I cmMa't say. Q. Didn't you kear what lie had to say? A. J was brought away wLeoi lie went in. Q. Wasn't there anyone else there when you were maiking your statement? A. Exceipt the offieei^'; thait was all; then he called Foi'^st. Q. Weren't you present when othefrs' were makiaig sta-tements? A. No, isir; ttoait is a thing that never was dome. Q. You don't know what he said? A. Noi, sir, Q. Until you received the decisiion of these officeris? A. No, fiir; I know the miext night I got a dollar report; that wais to show I was guilty. By Mr. lAtchfleld: Q. Where was this investigation held? A. Under the band- room. By Judge Gilbert: Q. The oharge related entire^ly to your not perfonming your work the time you were reduced to the red suit the second time? A.. Yesi, edir. Q. You stated ibefore you were also marked for talking and looking ai'ound and so on? A. Poa* talking; that isi the only oifense I have been charged wMh. Q. 1 am requested to a^ you if you har^e been imteiriewed by Mr. Boeder or Mr. White? A. Yes^ sir. WHMam Facey, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness by the chairman as to the fonmer witness^. Q. What is your age? A. TT\'enty years old the tenth of last month. Q. Were you ever in the Elmira reformiatoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you sent there? A. I was isentenced there November 1.3, 1891, and I was received in the reformatory Novem- ber 17, 1891. Q. From what place? A. New York. Q. Fbr what offense? A. Burglairy, third degree. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you informed before you made your plea that if you plead guiltT and was sent to Elmira reformatory that by good conduct you could procure your release at the end of a year or a few months? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you in th^ reformatory? Aj. Going on fourteen rnxwiths. 585 Q. TShen yoiu were transferred to tUis prison? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you pamiiBihed: wihile in tlie, reformatory? A. Y^ sir. Q. How many times? A. One day I Was paddled tlie wlioie afternoon; .they done mothing but paddle me all tlie time. Q. I ask you how many times were you paddled; how many different times were you taken to the bathroom during the time you were in the refommatoiry? A. Fonr times they took me thex"e; the first time he didn't paiddlle me at all. ; Q. How many different times were you talien to the bathTOom during the en,tire time you were in the reformatory ? A. J was ttere one day only; that was the week before I was drafted here; one afternoon. Q. Do you remember the day of the month you were trans- ferred, from Elmira to Auburn ? A. Yes, .sir. Q. What day was it ? A. January 14, 1893. Q. When before that were you reduced to the red suit grade ? A. It was in the week, January seventh, was on Saturday; was ^vliien I was taken out of the shop and fetched to the solitairy, where I was examined on the charges they sent me here on. Q. Up to that time what had been yom" record in the reforma- tory ? A. Grood. Q. Had any charges been made against you before that ? A. No, sir. Qi Had you at any time been marked in to be punished ? A. ' No, sir. 1 Q. What was your standing in the reformatory ? A. I waB second sergeant in the blue suit. Q. How long had you been second sergeant in , the blue suit ? A. I was promoted to the blue suit September 4, .1892. Q. And remained in the blue suit until about a week before you were transferred to this prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You may state the facts relating to your being reduced to the red suit grade, and also the facts relating to the punishment that you received, if you did receive any punishmen/t, before being transferred ? A. On January 7, 1893, I was in the printing office doing my work, and Keeper Sample came over and asked for Facey; he came behind the press and says, "Put on your hat and coat, you aire wanted." Q. What had been your employment up to that time in the reformatory ? A. Printer. Q. What particular work were you engaged in doing ? A. In the pres^-room; I was making ready on the press, when Keeper Sample said, "I'ut on your hat and coat;" I put on my hat and coat and went over to the solitaay; I got in the door, and Mr, Hoppe and Colonel Bryan and Colonel Halpin and Van Etten U 586 were sitting down on a dhair, and I aat down on a chair; Mr. Halpin addressed me, and says, " You are a nice young man to be made am officer;" I asked h.im to explain what I was there for; Col- onel Bryan produced a sheet of paper, and says, " Now, Facey, we know all about you; you might as well tell us;" I says, "I don't know anything about this;" with that Mr. Hoppe jumps up, and I stood up on the chair, and says, "If you don't teU me what you know I will send you to the bath-room;" I says, "I don't IvEow nothing about tihis case at aU;" they wouldn't take that talk; they took me to one of the cells and left me until after dinner; that is to be known I was to be taken to the bath-room,; I was taken down to the bath-room, and when I was fetched in the bath- room, in the small comer, I was put up against the corner, Mr. Brockway standing in front of me and Colonel Halpin was on the right hand side of me, Mr. Hoppe and a lot more of them was standing thei-e, and the superintendent says to me, " Facey, why don't you tell these men what you know about this;" I says, " I don't know nothing about this, general superinitendent," and with that he hauls off and punches me in the ohest; he says, " Co down and tell these men what you know; if you don't," he siays to the men, "fetch this man up and I will make an example of him;" they fetched me down to the solitary amd asked me tihe same questions again; I explained the same answers; I didn't, know nothing about it; they took me back to a cell and left me there for fl^e or ten minutes, and went up to the floor and got the generfal superilnteindlenifc down and when he came down he says, " Get over there and itake down yoiuir panifcs/' aind he slays, " Put your hamds up agiainst the waU;" I had my hlainds up ajgainsit the waM, and he paddled me I don't know how many blowis I got right across the back; he paddled me all the time; he didn't care wheire he Mt me; he was hitting me oveir the face amd aU my teeth were loose where the sibnap wpiuld come aciross her©, and eveiy ttme I would go to fall down Halpini woraJdl grab me by thje throat ajnd lift me up to ithe wiaJU again; aiPteiri that he say^ "Now, go down and tfell thesie meo whlajt youi know;" I went down to the solitaoy andl I told them. I dldnft know nothtog, and going down to the solitary Colonel Halpin had me by the arm, and saysl, " Facey, why don't you tell thtem awnetMngi; you wiU have to teU something; if you don't they will make an exaimple of you; they have gob you here now, amd you will have to do something; you might as well tell whait you kmiowi;" I says, "Colonel, I don't know anything;" he says, "Why don't you tell somietthSing; you wiU have to teU somiethliinlg;" thiey chamged me from the baiih-room to lihe solitairy, amd thJey had' a mami there naaned IHtzpatiilck; that was the only mam I seetni; they nevier 687 fetlditeidl a witlniesls bteifbire me oiri auiyitiMiag elaie; dSldin't give mtei no chance at all; all they were doing was to take me to tke bath-room land toaicik aigadn to the solitairy; goSnig' down agaiini they hield Fitz- patricK there, and while I was in the soiiitairy they hiaidi MtizpaibniJck to the bath-room laying him about the same as they were laying me, I believe, trying to get me to admit the chargesi I didn't know> amiyrtMng laibonit; the second tdime I waai fetched down there I kept to the isame ajnawen I didni't know amything aboiuit it, 'and they f etichedi me baxsk to the bathnroiomi again and made nue go up aigalEnst the wall latnd when he got tired of paddling me, I waisn't alble tia move; he goit me on tihfe floon and' kicked me ^aO^ over; he dMn't oaine whlartl he done. .Q. Whio Moked yoM? A. The general siuperikitendenifc amd also HJalpin. ' Q. Where dSldl he kick yoiu? A. Kicked me airoamd the body amd on the legisi; I have a sm'all scajr thetre where he kicked -me and kicked mie in the head; I imvet two soars toig^ther whe^e he kicked me iin the heaid. Q. Anything fuarther you wiant to sitiaite? A. Yeisi, isiir; I want to state when I wasi fetched up to my cell 'aifter gii#ag me the licking whether I ajdmiltbed the chairgesi or not I do nioit know; I do not know what they had against me but they came around every five mimntesi; it was as muich asi I could doi to lajy down; I was all black and blue; my eyes weire lall black; my nioise waisi all out ol shape, and is oiu* of shape yet fpom it; they wonld call' me up to the dioor and say, "Come Faicey, let us know whaiti you Imowi," aggtravating m'e, trying toi getl me toi tell them som.ethinig; a couple of days befofe I caime aiwiay they fetched me up befoire the generial superintendent), and Mr. Hoppe was there and says," "This is Facey, and he has eight charges against him;" tte geneml superintendlentl sar^si, "Doi you adtaiitl these chairges;" I says, " General siuperiniteMdent^ I donft know amything about iit;"" he eaiys, " Take him out; that wiU do for him." , By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Didn't they state to yoiu what the eight chairgeis were? A. No, sir; they had not read them off to me or 'anythllnlg else; I don't laiow what the charges were. Q^Didn'tltheyknow-^aittheyclaimeidyiouiQiadjIbeenidioing? A. Yesi; Colonel Byran saysl tbi me when I was down in) the ball- room "You aire known as a briute yourself; you might a® well toll it'" doi I look like a man that woiuld bfe down a;t the reformat toiry amy taine at all dtoing my grade having a record that I had there" doing my best to get home, and then fall into such conduct as thaJt? ! 588 Q. Dom't you know it wasi claimed you ha/d been doiug offense against nature? A. Yes, sir. Q. You did know tliat was claimed? 'A. They claimed that Q. You knew that at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they tell you that was the nature of the charge against you? A. No, sir; th6y didn't explain it to me at all. Q. How did you know tha/tl was the charge? A. That is what they told me; they said: "You had comneotion with Fitzpatrick and othere." Q. You did know the general nait'ure of the charges? A. Yes, sir. By Judge Grilbert: Q. You may be a little moire specilfici if you clan in refeiiseaioe to the nature and severity of the punishment that you received there if you cam remember; you say that you were taken up to the window and compelled to sttmd up facing the vrtndow, and put your hand at a certain point while yooi-were beimg paddled? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you stnmg up in any way? A. I was strung up the last time, the third time I was there. Q. How many times under those charges were you taken to the bath-room and punished? A. Three. Q. When do you say you were taken there the first' time and punished? A. Eight after dinner January 7, 1893; the second time and first time he hadn't paddled me alt all. Q. I am speaking of the times you were paddled; the first time you were paddled was in the afternoon of the 7th of January, 1893? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know how many blows you received at that time? A. I counted fifteen or sixteen, I am not sure which. Q. At that time were you strung up, as it is termed, to the window in any way or in front of the window? A. Not the first time I was not. Q. Were you struck at that time on any other part of your per- son, except on the buttock or on the back? A. Yes, sir; he didn't care where he hit me. Q. He struck you att other places? A. Yes, sir; across here. Q. What part of your person? A. Across my neck. Q. Anywhere else about youn head? A. Yes, sir; across here; my forehead was all black and blue. Q. I am inquiring of the flrat time when you were paddled? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many blows did you receive over or about the head upon thart; occasion? A. I received about five blows over the head. 589 Q. What were you dtting just before he struck yotu over the head? A. I went to turn around to try and plead to him to let me alone. Q. What did you say? A. I sajB: " General superintendent, please let me go; I am here innocent; I don't know anything about it; " he says: " I will make an example of you; I will make you wish you never was born if you don't teU those men what you know." Q. Were you art of your body ? A. My mouth, was bleeding, and nose; that was all I know of that was bleeding. Q. Was the skin broken upon your back or any portion of your body by reason of the flogging you received ? A. I don't know whether it was or not; I know it ^^■as so sore I couldn't lay on my back at all; I couldn't lay on this side or even on my stomach; I had to stay on my left side. Q. Were there any scars on your peiison caused by the bruises you received in the bath-room ? A. Not as I know of. Q. Did anyone examine your back after you received this pun- ishment to see whether there were any markfe ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you eisaiminie yotun back yoranseilif after the piundHhrneiit to see whether it was black, or blue, or not ? A.I couldn't turn around and see my back, but I could see my legs here, all the way down, where they were black and blue. Q. Were you taken to the reformatory hospital after that and treated there ? A. No, sir; I was not Q. Did the reformatory physician examine you ? A. No, air. Q. Was he present at any time when this punishment was tnflicitiedj? A. No, sir. Q. Or see you at all whale yoiu wer suffeirdinig fromi tihie effeots of the punishment ? A. He woaild come up to the cell in the morning and look in, but never spoke to me; just come in and look in; Colonel Halpin used to come around and say, "How do you feel now," and also Mr. Sample would come around and ask me how I felt. Q. As you understand it, who was it that made the charge, if any one, against you ? A. They hain't told me. Q. Now, who do you understand were the ones that made the charges or were the principal witnesses ? A. They hadn't any witnesses against me only Fitzpatiick, and I never had any deals v/ith the man at all; that was the only nian'w name they men- tioned to me. Q. What do j'ou know in- reference to their punishing Fitz- Patrick about the time they were punishing you ? A. He was waiting at the door until the general sujyeriiitendent got through paddling me, and then tiey would fetch him in, and paddle him. Q. He was standing at the door waiting his turn while you were getting your portion ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don't you know of any other witness against you except Fitzpatrick ? A. That is the only witness they fetched against- me. Q. You still say, under oath, those charges were false ? A. Yes, sir; I do ; all of them were false against me. Q. Up to the time your record had been perfect ? A. Yee, sir. 695 Q. You had been raised from tlie citizen suit grade to the blue suit or the highest grade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And was then paroled ? A. No, sir; I wasn't on parole; I was an inmate officer. Q. How long had you bben an inmate officer ? A. I don't remember how long I was an officer there, but I remember when 1 vtas promoted to the blue suit. Q. You had been there about a year ? A. I would have been there fourteen months the 17th of January, 1893. Q. Had yoTi made application to the board of managejrs in any way to haive your case inquired into aiud see if you could be paroled? A. No, sir; I was up to the interview with the general superintendeout Wednesidiay, and hei was speaking of my pairole and wanted me flrsit: "Facey, hoiw would you like tO' go to worilt in the refooranajtory; how would you lilce to stop at the reforma- tory?" I says: " I hajve been here over a year and I would like to go home and see my folks;" he says: "We will see abont that the next board thiaJt jmeets;" that would have been on the twenty- eighth of January. Q. Your parents are living? A. Yes, eir. Q. Had you evei* been convicted of any crime 'before? A. No, sir. Q. Ever been confined in any penal institntion before? A. I had been in the Tombs in New York for twenty-five dayst Q. Wlhat for? A. For throwing a bos of pilgeons off the roof. Q. For a larceny? A. Yets, sir; we were on the roof playing and there was a box of pigeons there and wei took them and threw them into the back yaa-d. Q. It was a mischief? A. Yes. Q. Yon didn't take any property or earrj' it away? A. Noi, sir. Q. Malicious m&chief? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know what Fiitzpaifcri'ck's first name was? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. Or what his consecutive niumber was? A. No; sir. Q'. Yoiur paTents are living whlere? A. New York city. Q. Has your father any employment there? A. He ii-^ working in the De Vinne presis-room. Q. Any of your family e^er been convicted? A. No, sir; none of them was ever in prison. Q. You say the only charge made against you or the only offense tJhat you committed for which you received marks was this charge that you refer to? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anytiing about this Fiitzpatrick ihaving stated since thajt the charg€5S madei a,gainst you were untrue? A. No, sir; I do not. 596 Q. Did you have a final interview with. Mr. Brookway with, reference to tlie ciharges made against you? A. Yes, sir; that was on Wednesday or Thursday, and the follo\\ ing week I oaine away fixwn there. Q. What was your interview? A. ^^'^len 1 was biwught in before the general suiperintendemt he was sit ting, before me and Colonel Bryan wais sitting tbere and Mr. Hoppe tberei, and he motioned me to sit down in a ohair in front of the general suiperin- tendent, and Mr. Hoppe s^ys to the general superintendent: " This is Facty ; he has eight charges against him ; " the genei'ai sui>erintendent siys to me: "Facey, do j'ou admit these charge;s?" I says: " Geneiul superintendent, I don't know nothing about them;'' he sara: " Taike Mm out, I don't want to have nothing more tf> do with him;" when I was fetched to the reformiaitoiry fimsit off, when I was brought in there, the general superintendent siayp to me — no; when I was in the ofBce he says to me: "Hello;" when I wae going out of the door, " There i® another one ; we have got more like him ; 'ne will soon get rid of them all." ' Q. Wa.s that before or after you had been punished? A. After I had 'been punished. Q. As I understand you, up to this time you had been trying to make the best, record you could in order to gain your liberty as soon ap poesilble? A. Yes, pir. Q. Do you know what the maximum penalty isi; the length of time you may be imprisoned for the offense with whiiOh you were charged? A. Yes, sir; five years. Q. Had you requested in any way to be transferred from the reformatorv to State prieon? A. No, ear; I had noi occa- sion to; I could get along at the refoirmatO'ry ais long as I minded my own buisiniess and done wihat waisi night and lived up to the rules and which I had done while being in 15he refomuajtory; I waia received there in November; I remained in the black suit until September fourth, when) I was) promofted to the upper first grade; I never remained in tte black suit as long ajsi I had if my record wasn't perieot; I wouldn't have remained in the Muie iHuit up to the time the changes were brought agiditaist me if my conduct wasn't good; they never would have miade me an oiBcer and give me charge as dutyman while I wajs there. Q. How long a. time had you been in charge? A. I can't remember how long it waB. Q. You wasn't reduced to thte' red suit at ail befoire you were transf erred? A. No, -sir; the flrsit time I waa thlere in the red suit was when I got transferred here. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. At the time of the investigatioin of these licentious charges did you not volunitajrily admit having commuittied offenHieis agiaiinsil 597 I natnre wMi certiato mem? A. I did after being pumisihied; I bad to do it to save myislelf ; if I hadn't adlniititiedl iHie ciiaipgeei I don't believe I would be sitttng Jiene to-day toi tel yoiui so: Q. Did yofu admit baving committed offenlsies witih Oaptain BDudas oni moore than one occajsion? A. Yes, s&p; I lajdmitted aiftieir the palddling. ' Q. And with Mght Watchman Witzman? A. Yes, isir. Q. HUdlebrandt? A. Yea, sip. Q. Lynieh? A. Yes|, isir. Q. Yoiu voinntairily admitted all those? A. I ladknitted aiter gettiiiig licked, but the chauges weren't true. * Q. Do you say now under bath the charges wene not tnie? A. Yes, siir; I say under oaith the charges were not t!rue. Q. Were there amy witnessies to some of thosie offiensesi? A. No, isi'r; they hadtai't fetched any witnesBes befoire me at all. , Q. Did you admit the siame nature of (bffenisie with Cook? A. ^o, sir; I do not. Q. You didn't estate then voluntarily you did what wasi not right with Cook? A. No, sir; they hadn/t mientioniedl Cook's name at all. Q. This is the first timia you heard of Cook's maanie? A. Yesi, eir. Q. Ooleison did you adlmit? A. No, sir; I didn't admit! to that; he was a room-mate of mine; that was the flnslt quastion they put to me; I never had any dealiinge with Ooleisoni; he was tough; I never! talked to him wMe I was in there. By Judge G-Ubert: Q. Do you still insist you were uii the barth-iroom' upon three diffleqient oeoaisibnjs and; paddled thnee diffeirent times? A. Yes, sin; I do. ' Q. In the presence of the pensomsi that you have named aliready? A. Yesj, silr. Q. You still insist upon it? A. Yes, siir; I doi. Q. Isn/'t it true that you weire only ini the bath-room twice on the 7th of Jamaasry, 1893? A. Noj, sir; I was there four timea Q. And that you neceived upon that oiocasion on that day only foum MowBl? A. No, sir; I received sevemteen blowis; I remember counting fifteen blows; fifteen or seventeen, I am not sure which. Q. And you were neduced to the isiecond grade; that is to the red aiuiit gnade on the eleventh of January? A. Yes^ sir. By Mr. Litohfield: Q. Whali date were you punished? A. January seventh. Q. What grade were you occupying then? A. Blue suit. Q. You were not reduced tol the second grade until four days after that? A. Foxir dayia ajfter that. 598 Q. You were still wearing the blue suit during tlie time you were punisliedi? A. Yes, sir. Q. HAd you ohe^Tons? A. Yes; I had my sergeant'a eitlrip<^ on. Q. 'V\Tieu were your clothes changed? A. My clotlicw were changed during the week; I don't know which day it wa.s. Q. Changed before you were punished? A. Aftw I was pun- ished. Q. Immediately after? A. Some days after. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Didn't you voluntarily admit being guilty of the foJlawing offemsee; first, tlie offense of sodomy with Hudis, the captain on top gallerj' cfi north wing extension? A. Yes, sir; I admitted it, but it wasn't true. Q. Also the offense of licentious conducit with Hudis at cell door? A. Yes, sir; I admitted that. Q. Did you give the names of these pensions I now refer to vpluntarily? A. No, sir; ithey mentioned the namw to me. Q. You didn't first mention the names to them? A. No, vsir. Q. Do you know how they found out the namesi? A. No, sir; I do nott. Q. You state positively you didn't mention them?. A. Yes, sir; I state positively. Q. Weren't you also accused of the offense of sodomy with Night Watchman Witzman in dormitory quairters? A. No, sir; I remember telling that though. Q. Didn't you gi\e them the name first? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. And also sodomy \^•ith Hildebrandt, he acting the part of a female? A. No, sir; they mentioned his name to me with another man by the name of — I don't know the other man's name; some tall man that done duty over there. Q. What did yon tell them in reference to those last, two casas? A. The;\- had those names against me, and when I told them T didn't know nolthing about them they fetched me to the bath- room and licked me there. ' Q. I am requested to insist upon your stating what you said to Brock^\'ay or the others in reference to these two parties, Witz- man and Hildebrandt? A. When they asked me about them I told them I knew Hudis used to do duty over itJiere, and Avais an enemy of mine, and pretty near all enemy; I didn't care much about; I told the lies on so as to save myself from getting pun- ished; I told them Hudis came to me one time up there and took his privates out before me and shook them in front of the door; I remember telling them that. Q. You did furnish the name of Hudis? A. No, sir; they fur- nished it theinselves; I would have never mentioned his name; 599 I didnU know about the man at ail, but they mentioned the name to me and insisited I w£is to tell something that I knew, so-metMnig abouiti it, and tha^t was the only way I couldl get out of it was to answier. ' Q. Why did you give Hudis' name? A. They mentioned it to me. Q. YoTx say Hudis was an enemy of yours? : A. When they men- tioned bis name, and be is an enemy of mine, I went up and made up tbe isltory. Q. Why was Hudis an enemy of yours, do you know of any reason wby be sbould have ill-feeling against yoiu? A. I ^^•as bead duty rnaoQ and be never liked me. | Q. Had you marked Mm in at any time? A. No, sir; he was over me; be was a paroled offlcer, Q. Weire these person* I have named so far paroled offlcers, Hudis, Witzman and Hildebrandt? A. Hudis and Witzman was paroled officers; Hildebrandt wasn^t a paroled officer. Q. Didn't you also admit impreper conduct witb Lynch ? A. There were two Ljndhs at the reformatory; First Sergeant Lyncb. ,Q. Consecutive No. 3411 ? A. Yes, sir; tbat was tbe men I told tbem I bad improper conduct with, but I bad not. Q. What did tbat improper conduct consist off; what did you say to them wben. you made your admission or confession ? A. I told tbem yes; I says, "Lyncb did have connection witb me," and be says, Mr. Hoppe says to me, "Wbere, in front or in tbe back;" I :say8, " In the front;" be says, " Do you know of anybody else;" I says, " Yes; I know a man by tbe name of Murray." '' Wbat I Murray is tbat," be says; I says, "5355, Murray in the jirinting office;" young Murray had told me Lyncb had asked him if be would let bun take bis penis. Q. Did yooi also admit improper relations witb LjTicb, 4902 ? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. Didn't you tell tbe offlcers you had ? A. No, sir; I baxin't told tbe officers anything about tbat Lyncb at all. Q., As (Seen by a man named Pfunde ? A. I don't know Mm. Q. Didn't you admit improper relations occurred between you and Lyncb, and seen by this man, Pfunde ? A. No, sir; I bad not. I Q. Do you know janytMng about tbat ? A. No, sir; I don't know tbe man, Pfunde, at all. Q. Do you know Lyncb, represented by consecutive No. 4902 ? A. I know Mm by sigbt, going around on duty at tbe extension. Q. Didn't you admit you bad been in bis room ? A. No, sir; I bad not. Q. And tbat wUle there these improper relations bad occurred ? A. No, sir; I bad not. 600 Q. Nothing of tte kind ? A. Jvo, sir; I hadn't admitted any- thing of the kind. Q. Didn't you also admit sodomy with Colson, your room-mate ? A. ]S"o, sir; the only ehai'ges I admitted to them I remember myself; that was with this Hudis and Lynch and "Witzman; them is the only men I admitted the charges. Q. Didn't you also admit receiving many vile propositions from inmates and paroled men ? A. No, sii"; I had not. Q. Didn't you say so to them ? A. To avoid punisiunent; when they would come to the door I always thought they were, coming to take me down to the bath-room again; every fifteen or twenty minutes they came to the door; if I had to submit to all the chai"ges they brought against me it would be pretty near all the institution. Q. Didn't you say that you knew of many other cases of sodomy committed on your gallery ? A. No, sir; I had not. Q. .yid you had not reported the same ? A. No, sir; I had not; anytliing I seen I reported it there. Q. Isn't it true that all th^e admissions were made by you before you were ever taken to the bath-room at all ? A. No, sir; they were not; I didn't admit to any of them at all. Q. Weren't you accused of these offences, and being in posses- sion of the knowledge referred to before you were taken to the bath-room, and weren't the names of the different persons with \\hom you had committed these improper acts, were not those names mentioned to you before you were taken to the bath-room ? A. No, sir. , Q. Weren't you accused specifically of these various offences and weren't you told by whom the facts could be established before you were taken to the bath-room ? A. No, sir; I was not. Q. Do you mean to say, and do you still iasist upon it, that the first time that you admitted the commission of these improper acts was when you were on the floor in the bath- room and immediately after you had received the third seyere punshment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't jou admit thejsie things in yoiur cell or imteirviews held with the oificers aA other places and before you were taken to the bath-roomj? A. No, sir; I had not. « Q. Don't yon know there was an investigation made or had with reference to these changes before you were interfered with at all? A No, sir; I do not. Q. Weren't you before that board and weren't you interro- gated by memlbers of the board in reference to what- yoiu kneiw about those offenses before you were marked in, a.s you term it or before you were taken to the bath-room at all? A Yes, sir; I 601 was bpouigilit to tihje solitary irgM from tlie stop to wtere tJiey were iioldiing their court majrtial. Q. They were iholding a coprt martial 'aA tbe time wlieii yoiu were taten fe'om thei aliop — what shop? A. The printing office. Q. When yon were taken from the printing office they were then holding a court martial? A. Yes', sir. Q. Wiheire? A. Right outside of what you call the reception celiljS. Q. You were taiken before that board? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you taken from the shop, as you term it, the print- ing room, bbfore the investigating board or court martial, and didn't you there irefuise to admit or state what you knew about it? A. Yes, !sdr. . , , Q. Then weren't you taken to the bath-room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. TTien you were paddled? A. Not the first time; the general superimtendent only punched mei, and sayjs: "Take him back." Q. The first time you were taken to the bath-room, didn't you tell the superintendent or the others there that 3'ou would admit, what you knew about it? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Then' weren't you taken back befoi-e the board for the pur- pose of giving your statement? A. Yes, sir. Q. Or admissions? A. Yeis, ;sir. Q. Then, didn't you refuse to admitt anything with reference to this improper conduct? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then weren't you taken 'back again to the bath-room? A. YeSb sir. Q. Thetre you received some puniislument? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Then didn't you at the time promise Brockway or the others that were there that you would admit 'what there waisi about it and then weren't you taken back to tjhe solitary again? A. No, sir; I promised Mr. Brockway I would. Q. Didn't you on that first occasion when you were first pun- ished,, you promised you would admit what, there was aibout it? A. Yes, slT. Q. Then you were taken before the board the second time? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. After you were taken before the board you refused to admit it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were, taken back again to the baith-room? A. Yea, sir. Q. Then you were punished the second time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then didn't you promise to tel ? A. I promised the general superintendent; when 1 went to the solitary I hadn't told him anything. Q. You promojsed you would tell? A. Yes, sir; I had. 76 602 Q. Then you were taken back to the bath-room the second time and j'ou refused to tell? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then j'ou were punished again? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were taken ba-ok before the 'boaffd agadn? A. Yes; I was taken back before the board and I 'admitted then to all the charge.-' they brouigiht against me. Q. The admiission you made wa« made before the board for the first time? A. Yes^ sir. Q. It wasn't roade for the flnst time when you weire on the floor ill the ceU, on your back a® you istiartied? A. When I came to on the floor I said Oalomel Halpdn was over me 'ajid was telUmg me I would have to tell what I knew ; he took me by the arm him- self ajnd fetched me to the solitary and thesre I ladmitted tb all the charges brought againistt me. By Mr. litchfleld: Q. You only claim to have been paddled twice imi one diay; you were taken to the bath-room three times? A. I was paddled three times in the one aftemoom; I was fetched there twir timies and paddled three. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You state posiiitLVely you were, noit guilty of any of those chai'ges? A. Ye®. Q. You made these admissiionBi in order to avoid Jfunther punish- ment? A. Yes. , Q. You now testify positively they were all falsie? A. Yes; they were all false; if I had- a chamcie to prove my innoceaice I would have done it, but I had no chance against flve of them; it wasn't a slap across the table with a, hat; it was on this side with the hand. ; '" Q. Have you any scars upon your pensom anywhere ireeulting from the punisihment that you received? A. Yea, isir; there is one scair right over anothfir, one here that I received. Q. Show the one on your foot? (Witness shows la scaa* on his left shim.) ; Mr. Stanchfleld. — We claim that is a scar that was upon hiTin when he went' there. (Dr. Wey looks at the scar.) Q. Thieiie aire upon your limb two scans? A. Yes. Q. One scar you had when you went to the refomnatary? A. Yes. ', i ; \ ' ' , Q. One scar you say you received at the time jr caused by punishment ? A. At the reformatory; Earl, after coming out, I believe about two or three days afterwards), he came out after getting the kicking, and his eyes was blackened; tliat was all I could see; his face blackened up; and another man that worked in the printing office by the name of Fiola. , Q. Can you give his consecutive number ? A. No, sir; I seen him coming out after getting paddled ; he showed me his back. Q. What did you observe in reference to his back ? A. AH black and blue across where the' general superintendent had licked him; he came behind the press and showed me, after coming out from the bath-room. 604 Q. How long was it after being in the baibh-room ? A. TKe same afternoon. Q. How do you know he had been in the bath-room ? A. He told me; I knew he was to the bath-room for no other stripies would make the same marks on him which he had. Q. You didn't see him go to the bath-room ? A. I seen him cLalked in his cell. Q. That was art noon ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What time in the afternoon was it you saw him with the marks upon his back ? A. About half-past 1 or 2 o'clock. Q. Do you know of any others that had mark® upon their person ? ^V. I A\ant to tell you about an imderground cell; it is under Ihe domeSiic building; they have got an underground cell; all I know is a man that worked there as a machinist, by the name of Taylor, had been do^^n there fixing the steam pipe; I know there is an underground cell there. Q. Whereabouts in the prison is this underground cell that you refer to ? A. Under the domestic building, where the inmates eat their dinner; the first grade inmates eat their dinner; right under it there is a cellar under it and there is a cell there. Q. Have you ever seen that cell ? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know anything about it only what you have heard ? A. Only what I have heard about it. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. TMio do you say knows about it ? A. A man named Taylor; lie had earned a paix)le. Q. Do you know his consecutive number ? A. No, sir; I did not; he had charge of the machines. Q. What is his first name ? A. John, I believe. Q. He is now doing parole woi'k ? A. He went home on parole before I left the reformatory. Q. Do you know where he is from ? A. New York city. Q. Do you mean there is anything more than a cellar ? A. No; there is more than a cellar; there is a cell there, buUt; when he camel up and told us about it was the first time I knew it was a cell around the steam pipes; he says it was so dark; he went right into the cell; that is built into the cellar on purpose for punish- ment; whether it was ever used I don't know. Q. Did he describe the doors to it ? A. No, sir. Q. How do they get into it ? A. I don't know anything about that. Q. No staircase ? A. There must be, or they wouldn't have the cellar there. ' Q. Have you never seen that staircase ? A. No, sir. 606 By Judge Gilbert: Q. You are testifying now to wliat some one else liaa told you; you know nothing about it of your own knowledge ? A. No; only wbat Earl — I have seen Earl myself, with my own eyes, getting punished there; I hav^ seen the colomel punchj him fi-om one end to the either. Q. As I undenstaaid you, you don't know anything ait all about this underground cell that you have been referring to, except what someone else told you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't know, of your bwn knowledge, there is a cell thei^e; you don't know anyone has ever been confined in one? A. No, sir. Q. With reference to Earl being punished by Halpin you said he was kicked? A. Yes, sir; kicked and punched; no matter what he had ; the poor mam they had to carry him, I believe. Q. You first stated you saw him kicked from one end of the extension to tbe othen? A. Yes, Q. Now, you say you saw him, struck? A. They struck him when he came out; I saw him kicking him from' one end to the other, and also punching him. Q. What had Earl been doing? A. Hollering in his cell to the man next dotir; what he was hollering I do not know. Q. Do you know of any otthens that had m^rfcs upon them received during these punishments? A. I have seen the marks upon them. ' Q. You had charge for a long while of a. certain hall, a certain^ part of the prison? A. Yes, sir; I bad. Q. While TOu yyere performing you duty in thalt part of the prison, what, if anytbing, have you seen or do yon know with reference to prisoners having been severely, brutally punished? A. I wasn't in that class; I was over the first-grade men. Q. You didn't have an opportunity tb see what was going on with reference to the lower grade? A. No, sir; I had not Eecess. AFTERNOON SESSION. Thomas Dougherty, being duly sworn, testified': Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made by the chairman ito this witness as to the former witneeses. ; Q. Have you been confined in the Elmira'reformaitory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you sent from? A. Kings' county, Brooklyn. Q. When? A. January 28, 1891. 606 Q. When were you tramsf erred to this prison? A. Saturday, January U, 1893. Q. ^Miat had your record been in the reformatory up to about the time you were transferred? A. None could be better; first class. Q. Had you occupied any official position there? A^ I held as an inmate officer almost any position that an inmate could hold; that is, from oopporal up to the major. Q. Do you mean in the military? A. Military and through discipline. Q. When wa^ the first charge made against' you, so far as you know? A. January 9, 1893. Q. Up to that time, as I understand you, no chai-ge or com- plaint had been made against you ? A. No, sir; first offense. Q. ^^>re you ever in the red suit grade ? A. No, sir. Q. So that you m ere in the highest grade when a charge was made against you, January 9, 1893 ? A. I was actually a free man; I was a parole officer; I held at that time one of the highest positions an inmate could obtain in the institution, g, major, receiving a salary- of sixty dollars a month. Q. Had you been i)aroled by the board of managers ? A. I had been paroled in April, 1892, for the month of June, but as Super- intendent Brockway claims I could not find steady employment, he paroled me in the month of ilay, violating tihe rule of the board of managers; the board of managei-s authorized me paroled ' for the month of June; I wrote several letters, bjy permission of Mr. Brockway, to fii-ms in New Yorlv, and received answers back they were sorry they could not help me at the time; I applied if I could write out of the city ; he gave me that permission ; I wrote to a fimi in Chicago, asking for employment; that was about the 5th of IVfay, 1892; one week after that I received a note on a ^^aturday, ]\Iay fourteenth, from Mr. Brockway, stating I could not find satisfactory emplojTuent, and it would be best for me and the management of the institution that I should accept a position, there; I knew what it was to refuse Mr. Brockway's propositio»n, all hough he claimed I wasn't compelled to accept it; I can prove \\hat I say; I know what it was at that time to refuse Mr. Brock- way's proposition; it was to take another grade or remain in the insTiturion until he saw fit to let me go; the board of managers had nothiiii; to do with that; on Monday, May sixteenth, I was sent for, pla,ced in an officer's uniform and brought before Mr. Brock' way: I had the usual interview with Mr. Brockway; he handed me some papers to sign, which I didn't know; I put my name down to withdraw from my account; there were some letters the clerk handed me, and Mr. Brocliway then told me I could go out and take charge of my company; I was art; that time a captain ia 607 the military; I didn't have time to look at the letters until that e^'ening; on looking at the letters! found I had received one from the firm in Chicago; they had written me, telling me they would employ me, give me employment at one dollar and sixty cents a day at my trade for two weeks, and at the end of the two weeks they would raise my salary to the regular journeyman wages; during this here time the young gentleman I wrote to, who would look after me until I received luy first month's salary; during that time, if he found I changed my habits, he would have nothing to do with me; this letter Mr. Brockway daims is unsatislfactoiy employment; could it be any more satisfactory; this he claims was, unsatisfactory; this letter still remains in my trunk that they . conHscated from me, and other property. Q. What was your age when you were sent to the reformatory ? A. Nineteen years old. Q. What were you convicted of ? A.. Grand larceny, second dtgi-ee. I Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. No, sir. Q. Yqu had a trial ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn't the charge true ? A. Yes, sir; the charge was true. Q. Had you ever been oomviioted of amy offenise before that time ? A. No, sir; first time. Q. Never been in prison except in the reformatory ? A. That is all. Q. Were you punished while you were in the reformatory ? A. No, sir; not any more than receiving a report occamonally. Q. Were you ever notified by type-written notice that you must change your conduct in any respect or you would be taken to the bath-room? A. No, sir; I eseaipeid 'that, but I did receive a notice when I was in the lower flrsit grade when I was first there; I had missed one month; I received a notice if I did not make a 9 the previouis month I would be reduced to 'the second grade; the next month I made a 9. Q. What was yonr employment whilei you were in the refor- matory? A. I learned part of the mason's trade, plasterer. Q. bo you knoiw why you were transferred toi this prison ? A. I simuply got an idea of it, that is all; I don't know the details of the matter ait all, isimply the outline of iit. Q. Wera any charges made against you? A. Not to my face, only what Mr. Broiokway and Mr. Hoppe brought down; I had no hearing whatever. Q You may go on and istiaite, so far as you know, the facte and cireumstance^ relating to your being transferred from the refor- matory to this prison? A. Would you advi,se me to begin from the beginning and tell how I felt? 608 Q. No;'y(ra must simply state the fa<;ts? A. My feelings would bring forth some evidence that would be satisfactoiy to the .coommSlt'tieie, to sihow you why I was transfeimed amd tlhe reaisoins for it Mr. Stamchfleld. — Th'at is ovea- my objection, anything exctipt the fact. Q. You, as a witness, can only state the facts and they will show peTha,]>s \Ahat your feeling's might naturally bo or might not; state what occurred between you and the of&cers ^and all you know A\"itli retferenea to the reason ^hy you w(n\' transferred from the refoi-matory to the .Vuburn prdson? A. Would you only have uie begin from the time the Officer laid hands on me, or from the b(>ginning and tell how I progressed in the inisititution a.s ;ui inmate until I received the position as officer and par-oled, and tell how I got 'along as an officer, and ho'w the superintendent amd (nerybody appreciated me? Q. I Avill ask you this: .Vre your parents living? A. Yes; but I have ne\er commiunicated with them. Q. Where a.re they? A. Philadelphia. Q. You were residing in New Yorlv? A. Yes, sir; Brookl.yn. Q. Do they know where you are conflneid? A. No, sir. (i. Have you OA'er given your right name? A. Ye*?, sir. Q. Do you know of 'any other member of your family that ha^ ever been cfinvicted of 'an oifense? A. No, sir. Q. What business is your father engaged in? A. Railroad I 'ngineer. (}. You may state what the circumstances or facts are relating to your transifer to this plaice and what your record was before? A. I arrived at the Elmira reformatoiy Wednesday, January 28, 1891; I had been notified by the .superintendent, and it wais my flmi deteimination after hearing what the superintendent had said, to lead ais good a. lifi' and obey and confoirm with every rule in the ingtitution, and earn as quick parole as possible; I went forward and he told me the traide I was to learn, that was, plajS'- tering and part of the mason'.-- trade; I progressed very rapidly, and 'the seiventh of September I was promoted to the first grade, after seven months in the lower first grade; shortly afterwards T was made an officer in the military, promoted to corporal and within two or three days I was m'ade a sergeant, and from that an unusual occurrence took place and I wais madel second lieuten- ant, which very seldom takes place, and this took place on account of my comipetency in the military, as I was then assistant instruc- tor in the awkward squad at the time being and jsome benefit to the colonel at the time, helping him in his military duties, which brought myself to be looked upon, and I iwais shortiy 609 afterwayrd'S made a captain; T ppogree^t'd very rapidly, and the cdlonid approajohied me one dlay and told me he had heen looking <>v(n' my school record, and it had been very well, and he intended to take me out of Bichool and make me a mlonitoir, whiich is^ a oitiaeiii officer's duty or pajoldd officer'isi duty; I wais taken out of school in March, 1892, amd madei a mjonitbr; in the month of April I wais broraghtt before the board of manageirisi, land my pairole was authodzed to take effect in the month of Jume. ' Q. "What do you mean by "parole?" A. That JB, I was author- iaeid by the boiard of managers ttoait I coiuld seek employment out- side of the Inistitutibn, protvidSng I found employment, I could go, eiaitiisifaiotory %> thie management. The firist week in May, I wrote laeverail letters to Kiew York firms and received aooiswers back telling me they were sorry, at the timie buisiniesB was very dull, bait they would try and do something for me; I saw an inmate officer who I was acquainted with, and asked him if he' knew anylbodly I copld write to, and he says, yes; he had a brother in CMciaigo, doing the same business that I was' learning; he was a oomtipaictioir!; I asked hiim if it would be rightl toi write, him; he says, yes, I ishould write Mm and undoubtedly he would find me ■employment; so on the fifth of September I wrote this letter to Chicago, with the isupeirinrtjendtenfs permission <\ioi "write from the State^ because you have to get hSIs permisision to writte out of the State; I didn't receive any answer from them until I went on pairole; Saiturday, fourteenth of May, tine siuperinttendenit sent me this note notifying me it woiuld be bes* to goi on parole duty theire aig an offloer, but he didn't compel me to go on, he left itt to my own discretion whether I should aoceprt. or no*; it waisln't my dhmcB to accept this positi'on as a parole 'officer; I waS' against it, and this feeling made me aocept it, this feeling, knowing what would become of me if I didn't accept it, because T can relate a hundred cases in the reformatory where the etaper- inltendent wished men to ,g;o ri>vm? A. I told yon I became dissatisfied. Q. And you had an inter\'iew with ^Mr. Brockway; at that time, had you, by the action of the board of management, been paroled, so you could leave the insititution if you saw fit? A. Pro^ading Mr. Brockway let me. Q. Xow you may go on and give the interview between you and ilr. Brockway? A. I sa.vs to ^Ir. Brockway: "Will you please consider my depairture? " at first he said: "Oh, yes; sit down;" I sat down and he asked me what the trouble was; I told him I was absolutely, entirely dissatisfied with everything 611 in the insrtitution ; he asked me what caused this; I told hini the feelingis I had with the other officers audi the prejudice they held agaimst me ; if I didn't do my duty I would have been reduced ; if I did do iuy duty I was slandered, I was traduced and e'very- thing else a man could think of; I was hounded by the other' officers, but they dare not show it; he asked me why didn't I complain of this before; I says': " It was no use; if I told you this thing before and mentioned these officers names, Q^uch as Colonel Halpin and Colonel Biyan, and these officers' action.s, the tirst thing I know I would be reduced in the red suit, and you wouldn't know anything about it, only I was redhced ; '" he began to reason with me; he says that he would remedy all these thing-s and he oomplimenlted me as an officer; he says: "Dougherty, I am sur- prised'; I would like to see you remain a while; your trade iiowi is at this season very dull, and wouldn't it be best for you to remain hero until next spring, pi'oviding your salary was raised, and pro- \iding I gave you suitable quarters, and providing you could have a vacation;" I says: ''Superintendent, I am absolutely dissatis- fied with the institution and everyltjiing else;" he says "Throw that aside and try and get satisfied; itjhese things will happen and you must take tiiem;" I know what it "wais tJien; I didn't want to contradict hinior ax'gue with him, and I told him I Avould do my best and I left him; he says: "I saw jaa in part of the institution carrying out your duties; not like the rest " ^- refer- ring to the citiizen officers — "and everybody else; I am glad I can have one or two men to depend on ;" I felt a little relieved at what he thought of me; I felt he didn't thinli 1 was doing wrong, and Itliought that he had a good deal 6f respect for me; that, is, that he felt I was carrying out my dUfy as he| wanted it ; I left under these impressions, that Mr. Brock^ay would in a short time consider my release and let me go next, spiing probably; nothing material happened after that until January came; the first or second of January there -was a nmioi" . around Officer ^'alentine Avas accused of sodomy with a young man named Beilly; A'alentine was taken and locked n^i that is all I know what became of him, that he was locked in solitary for a week or two; another officer was accused of it, and still another officer, and so on; there was finally ten of them accused of sodomy with Inmates, and they were supposed to have a court-martial; tbe court-martial consisted of two ex-inmate officers, Mr. Cdlonel Halpin and Mr. Oscar Hoppe, and an officer, Mr. Van Etten, and Colonel Bryan; that was the combination. Mr, Stanchfield.— I ask tp strike that 6ut, the expression of an opinion. Judge Gilbert.— Yes; that may be stricken out. 612 The witness. — These are the men that constituted the court- martial. Mr. Brockway had nothing to do with the^ court- martial; he left it all to those men, whethe^r these men were guilty or not; Colonel Halpin, as fai' ;i*i I can kno^-, was inti^ mately acquainted with a good many of those paroled oflficers; that is, he had his select choice. Mr. StancMeld. — Is that competent evidence ? Judge Grilber*. — I can't see how it is material, but let him go on. The witness. — Oscar Hoppe. Mr. Stanchlield.— Why, has he a right to describe the personnel of the court ? Judge G-ilbert. — I don"t see as he ought to be permitted. Expression of opinion is not evidence. Simply state the factii Strike out what he said in reference to his opinion, of these ofiioens, their ability and so on. < Q. You state these charges were made and that ten inmate officers were accused ? A. Yes. Q. Then what occurred ? A. This brought us on to January ninth, Monday; ^Monday noon, or shortly after noon, an inmata approached me, a first-grade man, and asked me, saying, "Major, may I 6i)eak to you for a few minutes' ?" Q. Was he an officer ? A. No, sir; he was not an officer. Q. An' inmate officer ? A. No, sir. Q. You were notified there was something wrong ? A. No; I ^^ as notified that these men in the dining-room had been using my name, slandering me. Q. What next occurred in referen.oe to yourself ? A. That ^londay afternoon I brought a young man before Colonel Bryan as talking about me, being accused of talldng about me in the dining-room, saying thei'e was somebody in this deal that would appear against me and cause my reduction. Q. "^Tio was that ? A. Hasselbower; the colonel says — some- thing unusual, because he always used to pa.\' strict attenlion to eA'ery case I brought before him — he says, " Dougherty, this is nothing; it is simply a general accusation among the whole insti- tution; all the officers ai-e accused of this." Q. Wbo was saying this to you ? A. Colonel Bryan; I reported tliis man, brought him to the guardroom floor and reported him to Colonel Bryan as passing rumors around; Colonel Bryan told the man to stand aside, and says, " Dougherty, I must not mind this; it is only a general accusation; all officers are accused of this, more or less." Q. What was it ? A. I didn't ask him then what they were accused of. 613 Q. What was the accusation whieli they were circulating ? A. They didn't mature, they simply says, "I wish there waa somebody in this deal would accuse Dougherty," or something else; I didn't understand what the accusation was to be, buit simply they wished somebody would accuse me, and cause guy reduction; it was a very good time for it; this brought me on to Monday evening; I was on duty as regular, in charge of the trade school; I was always in charge of the trade school when it was running evenings; nothing was said to me in regard to my being locked up; I simply carried out my duty that evening the sgme as usual, and the duty was over and I counted and nothing was said to me then ; along with a clerk that used to work in thq» front oflBce at that time and another officer who was a monitor and Oumby, a major at the time; we proceeded to the north quarters amd had a game of pool for a half an hour or so and we adjourned to Luthauser's room', a ci&rk; we decided to- go to our rooms; we then locked in the south quarters and to go to the soutlh quarters we hajd to cross the guard-room floor; the dining- room is always left open; Crumby wanted me to come under the dining-room, and I ihad a key in my pocket; I ;says: "No; I will g-o up; " at the time we ^\ent up we met Mr. HJopipe on the guard- room floor, and we went down 'the other side of the stairsi and Mr. Hoippe came down this iside going in the north quarters and we to the eeoith quarters); on reaching the bottom of the stairs we saw Colonel Halpin coming up from toward thp store-froom; we went around -the oither end of the south block and HaJipin caiaie up on a fast walk and before we got around there; he called: " Major,'' and Qfumlby turned around and ^ays: " Do you want me colonel? " He says: " Yes; both of you '' he says to Burns: " Yoiu can go on;" Cnumlby ^sipoke to him; I says: "What is the nuaitter, colonel?" He says: "I don't know;'' just ait that Mr. Hoppe came through from the other side of the dining-room; in;sitead of going to the north quarters where we had started for, Colonel •Halpin and those two were standing at the bottom of the stairs, on the souith side of the guard-room floor; he made some remark- to Halpin; I don't know what it was, but s)hortly after that Halpia told us that we were to be locked up; we asked him what for? He he;sd)tated awhile and sayd: "The same; as anybody else; it is all around; we are all guilty of it; me, myself; it is all I can do to keep out of it mysielf ; ibhey ane trying to put me in it;" "Who is trying to put you in? " " Don't you know -nho Ls trying to put me in? Sample and all of ithem;" he says: "Dougherty, you go down firsts, and Crumlby go after you so it won't look as if anything is the trouble, and I will be after you; " he meant for u>s to go in the solitairy; it wajSl half -past 10 Monday night; we isitaj^d down to the solitory. 614 Q. Didn't he tell rmi what roii were charged with? A. Xo, sir; I know, he says just the same. Q. Didn't you know what the general rumor meamt? A. Yes. ii. Charge of sodomy? A. It got to he rumored all around the Institution these officers ^^•ere aci'used of sodomy ; wi' couldn't get any more out of Colonel Halpin at the time; we started for the solitary and reached there all right, and when we \\ent into the ante-roomi who was there hut ( V>lonel Bryan, Mr. \'an Etteii and ilr. Sample; I wais the first one in; he says,: "I am sunpriaied, Dougherty;" "What are yoiu isurpriteed aihout, ccilonel?" He says: "I can't helieve you guilty;" "Believe me gTiUty about what?'' t^ays he: " I am -sorry but you are accused of sodomy and I can't hardly believe you are guilty ; " I says : " What jiroof 'have you got?" "Xichol'sou," he .'^ays; this wat' an inma,te; I was tlien an officer with all the confidence of the suiperintendent; an inmate had accused me and his word wap taken, and all I could dO' was to go down there and be loclved up; I ^^■as accused and condemned befoine I had reaiched the solitary; all that was left for me to do was^ to be locked up; I had been a,ccus'ed and condemned without a healing or anytliing else but locked up; "There you are Dou|gh- erty; you iwv reduced; that is all the consolation you will get;" " Colonel, am I to get a hearing in the morning?" He siay^: " 1 will see the supi-rintendent about it;" ''Oan't you give me noi defi- nite ansiwer; is this all I am to get, simply to be accused without a hearing?" He says: "I Avill see the ;superintendent," and he proceeded to Crumby; I couldn't stand it any longer; I had to break out and I certainly did cry; I broke right down when he accused me of that crime; I couldn't help it, amid Mr. Van Etten couldn't help but sayinig, " Dougherty, I don't bellieve you are guilty," and Cotonel Bryan alterwardSi came oiver to me, and says, " J can't see how tou are guilty, after being the man you have been the laisttien or fifteen months;" "WTiy do you believe me guilty?" '' Simply because the siuperinrtlendenit hlas heard Xicholson accuse you and .you aire supposed] to be locked up; the superintendent might attend to yo;^ ail right;" that conr soled me a little for that ereninig; the next moimiing came and I asked him, " Colonel, am I to have the regular inmates' -rations?" he siays, " I wiU see the supealintemdlent what I can do for you;" I thought probably it wais I was simply to be locked up until I was to receive a hearing; the next momning nniblo'dy came but ilr. Sample with a pan of hash and two pieoas of.bnead; thBre was my ratikms ; that was the officersi' food Colonel Bryan was to see I was to get; the next morning was Tuesday; we sent for Colonel Haipin; Crumby and I; Orumiby wasi locked in one cell in the isolitary ; those three cellsj I wasi locked in tihe one neajpesit f 615 iMe hlallway aMdl QrulnTjy was on ttfe tihiirdj; we asked Mr. Sample if hje would ;seiid for Colonel Byran or Oolomel Halpto; somebody thiait/we could see if we couldb't get aj heaiiug'; Ooilooiiel Halpin oamie down about 10 or half paisit 10 and 'sayis, "Do you want to see mie?" I ;siajysi, "Yes;" I says, " Whiait aoPe yoiu going to do; aire you going to give us a bearing?" be sayis, "A b,eairing;, wbat is tbe use of a beairing?" OoioneL Halpin tben was coniidentalj; be began to tell uBi, "Wluait ils tlhle use of a bearing; tbe man bas isiaid itti, and bie would say it in front of all of use;" I says, " Tben we aitle las niuab as oonvicted and con- demned alueaidy;" be says, ''As far as I cian see tbeme is no way out of it; tbait is all you bave got if you don't get any more; the super- intendent beard tbis Nicliolson, and tbiarti is lail tbiere is about it;" I couldn't be satisfied witb tbat; I abnosti implored with Halpin to bring me beftoire tbe superintendenit and' bring the' evidence they had; toe says, "It won't amount to anytbinig; that hearing;" the neixt day, Wednesday, oamie and I was bound to isee tbe supiapiii- tendent or somebody; I asked Mr. Sample to let me see the superithtendtent; tell the isupeirtiintendemt I wanted to. see him; that afternoon the supfiriiniteMdent, along with Mr. Hoppe, came < down and i says', "Doi you want to see me?'' I says, "Yes; superintendent; what am I here for; what evidence bave you got; bow is itt you accuse me and condemn me before I get la hearing; do you' tiafce this man^s vropd, and me being an officer I have be^n, and you having tbe con- fldenoe in me you have had?" he says, "You aire all guilty, Dougherty;" I says, "Let me see 'somie of the evidence that you have got ;" he went to Oumby, and asked Crumby if he wanted to see him; I could bear every word thalt was isaid; Crumby says, " Yes; let me see this mam, Niohoison;" hie says, to Hoppe, " Have Nicholson sbowed in;" Nicholson ciame in; Mr. Brockway says, " Mcholson, tell these men what you told Mr. Hoppe in a court- mantial;" Nicholson with a bowed head faced Crumby, and says;, " Is this man guilty; did. he have any connection with you?" this iis Brockway addressing Nicholson, " Did this man (pointing to Crumby) have any connection with yoo, in an immoral man- men?" Nichoi'Soni, with a bowed head, said), " Yes, sir;" that wa^ all and he wais rroshed out; I hoUoned to' Hoppe, "Let me see this man, Nicholson;" he was near the door; Nicholson was shtow^ed back and stood ^iithin ajbout fifteen fee* of my oeU, and Hoippe was closer to me, and he saysi, " TeU DougbBrrty what you told me; is Doug'herty guilty of anytblng connected witb you?" he says, " Yes^ isir;" that was all; Nicholson was then hurried out; Qmmiby wasn't satisfied witb this hearing, and he asked Brockway toBhO'wMmitaWylUe; Wylie had accuised Crumby in froeit of the 616 same court-martial; Wylte was showed in and Mr. Brookway sayw to Wylie: "Now, Wylie, ttell Crumby what you told Mv. Hoppe;" W\lie looked at Crumby and said: "I didn't say any- thing to Hoppe about Crumby;" "You didn'ifsay anything to Mr. Hoppe about Crumby;" and Mr. Hoppe got kind of excited and said: "You did teU me something about Mm;" Wylie .say.s: "No, sir; I didn't mean him;" "Who was it?'? "Dougherty;" wilh that he was shoved out and I didn't see Wylie or hear a word from him ; the man had confronted Q'umby and when confronted by Crumby he didn't have courage enough to say, alithough he probably did tell Mr. Hoppe Crumby did have coimectioin with him ; this man Wylie was a prostitute and had been in the red >siiit ten oa- fifteen times and had been paddled, as far as I can under- stand, about as many times, and his word didn^'t go anywhei'e; he had been an officer once and reduced, and had been charged with this crime time and time again; he was known thi-oughout the institution as a prosititute, and his word was taken against officers who had held the highest positions in the instituition, and with all Superintendent Brockway's confidence in them ; Mr. Hoippe or any other repi-esentative of the reformatory can't deny it; 1 asked hmi if he considered my past record; I asked Mi'. Brockwa\'. Q. ^Miere did you see him? A. I was in the solitary; Mr. Brockway and Jlr. Hoppe caioe Wednesday afternoon; after hear- iifg Nicholson's oonnplaint, he says: "Whalt have you got to say about that ? " I couldn't find words to express my feeling at the tune; I says: "Oh, Mr. Brockway, I am. innocent of) this; I have not dona any nuch thing;" he says: "Oh, that is all nonsense; you are all guilty of it; ' that was all the hearing I htid, uo fur- ther; ]Mr. Brock\\ay left me. Q. This was on the ninth? A. This' was on the eleventh; il was on the ninth I was locked up. . , Q. ^Miat further occurred in reference to your case? A. That was all that I saw of Mr. Brockway; I didn'^ see any more of him, or hear^ any moire of hinL) Q. TMiat further have you to say in reference to your version of your being sent to this prison? A. Mr. Hoppe read from a paper other charges of sodomy againsit me; he read one charge of Clark; sodomy with Clark in the filter-house; to show you such a thing couldn't take place in the filter-house at the farther end — at this time I was major; at any time I was an officer, and known throughout tte institution as an impartial officer, and with all the enmity against me, if I had committed this crime I wouldn't haA'e lasted five minutes after; I wouldn't have went and offered a man five minutes after without being accused of it and reduced ; Mr. Brockway look at the absurdity of it; he says: " This charge 61Y "took .place two or three weeks od a moaith.; " he never told me a time; another charge he accuised me of having sodomy with Mullen on the top floor, where the frescoing class it. Q. What time of the day or night? A. I don't know anything at all about that. Q. Was there no charge made of the time? A. No; simply Mullen and Clark, charges of sodomy. Q. Didn't they tell you whether you were accused of doing it in the daytime or evening? A. No, sir; they didn't think it was peoesaary; all they wianted was to have some big form to shoiw they had done som.ething in the matter; Mr. Hoppe says I had sodomy with M)illen in the fresicomg clasisi; if I had been guilty of tlhis Aviitlhl the officer, I say it woiuldln't have lasted five minnites; I would have been reduced ; my reduction would 'have been inside five minutes aftier; these three chargesi were all that were made against me, as far as I know, as far as was read to me; Mcholsion, Clark and Mullen; that was all I saw of Mr. Brockway that Wednesday; I didn't hear anything more of him; that Wednesday afternoon after Mr. Brockway had been away, I suppose, he authorized me to be reduced and placed in the red suit; Mr. Sample came down and told me that Crumby and I were to be placed in the red suit, all of us; Walters, Boyd and Oliveu had been in the three cells back, of us; I had never been back; they were three paroled officers who Mr. Brockway went around to talk to; Mr. Sample came about 2 or 2.30, and told us we were ail to be reduced to the red suit; receiving clothes and putting thean on, I says to Mr. Sample, "Do you still believe me a guilty man;" he says, ''Dougherty, between you and me, there is no more innocent man in this deal than you are yourself; you are as innocent as I am;" that is a fact, and I can prove it, if I only had Mr. Sample there; he was there during this Monday evening when Colonel Bryan told me I was locked up on a charge of sodomy, and I had good reasons why to ask Mr. Sample, because I knew he ,was acquainted with the workings of ihose com-t- martiale. , Q. You claim Mr. Sample told you he didn't believe you guilty ? A.. Yes, sir. Q. What next occurred? A. That was all that occurred; I wa« then reduced; then, on Friday, I was shackled, and Saturday I was transferred. Q. We have got down to the poitut where they s^hackled you, in preparation of transferring you to this prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have any other hearing, or did you have any other opportunity to vindicate yourself than what you have stated ? A. No, isdr. 78 618 Q. Do TOTi know whether the board of management, were con- sulted in any ^^■ay with, rrfei-ence to your case? A. Xo; I 'didn't know whether they were consulted or not. Q. You claim, solely upon the strength "of the statements of these single individuals aa ith reference to this offence, you were transferred from the reformarory to this prison ? -V. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Were you confronted with Olark '! A. No, sir. Q. Were you confronted with Mullen ? A. No, sir; Nicholson was the only man. By Judge Gilbert: Q. \Miat do you say now, imder oath, as to whether these charges, or any of them, «ere true or not ? .V. If God was before me, gentlemen, 1 am as innocent a man. as there ever waa in the case; can I tell you any more; when I came to this institu- tion I labored under impressions if I could only bring this mami before honorable men and ha-^e him confesis to the truth, how he was intimidated to confess against me — (i. (Interrupting.) You are refen-ing to Nicholson ? A. Yes, sir. , Q. If there is anything you know in reference to NieholsoDj, what you heard Nicholson say or saw him do, while before this board, that you may state, ihat is before this inyestigating conv mittee or this court-martial ? A. The only way I can express it, he acted cowardly. 1 Q. Were you before that court yoiu-self ? A. No, sii'; I wasn't before any court-martiaJ, only simple this man, Nicholsion, on ^S'ednesday, with the compa.ny of IMi'. Brockway and Mr. Hoppe; Mr. Brockway stood to the right, and .Mr. Soppe to the left, and this man, Nicholson, about flfteen feet from the cell. Q. Were you in your cell ai that time ? A. Y'es, sir; locked up. Q. They were outside ? ^V. Yes, sir. Q. TMiate^'er in\'estigation. was had was had while you were locked in yonr cell and the others were standing ontside? A. Yes, sir; exacth'. Q. T\liat cell were you in at the tim(- that occumd? A. Seclu- sion '>r isolitary. Q. One of the three-comer cells? A. No, sir. Q. The reception cells, as they call them? .V. Yes. Q. How long la time: before you -nere transferred, were you put in chains? A. On Friday afternoon I was chained, shortly after dinner, and Saturday morning about half-past 5 or o'cloick we were trauiSiferred. Q. For the purpose of testing the accuracy of your statements and so on, I am going to press you ^\1th some other questions? A. I wasih. yon would- 619 Q. Ais I understigxid you, you claim tbe only chainge that was ever made against you whUe you were in the reformaljory was the charge tlia.t you were guilty of isodomy? A. Yee, sir. Q. That was made a few days before you were transferred toi tbe AuJbum prison? A. Yes, sir; it was made five days, on a Monday and I was transferred on a Saturday. Q. Weren't' you charged with being . present on one ocacision when one Thayer hugged and kissed a man named Pacey? A. ]^o, sir; not to my knowledge; all I understood Mr. Hoppe to read were these three nam.ejs. ' ; Q. You didn't know suich a charge was made? A. Xo, sir. Q: Was that true? A. No, sir. Q. You undierotood if that had been true it was your duty as ' an officer to report it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know Facey admitted or claimed that was true? A. No, sir. Q. Or that 'he corroborated it in any way? A. No-, sir. Q. Or that it was oorrobo;rated by Fitzpatrick? A. No, sir. , Q. You knew Fitzpatrick? A. I knew him as an inmiate. Q. You knew you were charged by Nichollson with haTing com- mitted spdomy with Mm? A. Yes, sir. Q. But you »ay you nes^er was pemiitted to investigate the matter before either the superintendent or before the court mar- tial? A. No, jsir; I never did. Q. You also knew you were charged with this offense of sodomy with- Clark? A. Yes, sir. Q. That, you say, was faiise? A. Yes, sir. Q. And also with iluUen? A. Yqs, sir. Q. That you claim was false? A. Yes, mt. Q. You, kninv those charges were made? A. Yes. Q. You have already stated and" now insist under oath that all ithiasie cbiairges were false? A. Yesi, siir. Q. You say yoti were convicted of larceny in the second degree? A. Ye.s, sir. ' ^ \ Q. Was that tlie offense you were charged with, or wasn't it burglan-y? A. Burglary and grand larceny. Q. Do you know vihich you were convicted of? A. I do not; simply I was sentenced on one of them; I know grand larceny being the one I heard of in court. Q. You were tried' before a jurj'? A. Yes, sir. Q. What lawyer defended you? A. Lawyer WTieeler. Q. Where?; A. In BrooMyn. Q. What were the facts in regard to the crime? A. It was burglary and gi-and larceny. Q. What bulding was it you broke into? A. A tailor shop. 620 Q. What did jou get? A. Gk)t some clotMng, valued at seventy- five doMans, I believe. Q. Do you know what the maximum tenn is? A. I did at tluat time; yes, sir; five yeare. Q. Were 3'Oiu ;Siwoim as a witness in your own behalf on that trial? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you testify on the itrial you were inHocent? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Denied the whole thing? A. Yes. ' Q. You admit the etory you told under oath was untrue; you uow admit you were; guilty ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say yiui wci-e an otticer for quite a length of time; M'luit, if anything-, did you siet- or do you know with reference to- other inmates being cruelly treated ? A. If I should reply to this 1 am ouly stating my own case as an innocent man. Q. Dp you know any fact relating to other inmates beingi abused in any way; what you saw and what you know ? A. jS'obody can say they .>m the bath-room regularly. Q. State, if you can, any instances where you saw one of those inmates wheu he came from the bath-room with bruises or marks oi- cuts upon him ? A. I will relate one case that is positiveljjj tiue; I was then major; there was a case reported to me in the umbrella shop; there were notes passing from one man to another, raising a mutiny, and a young fellow was pointed out to me as. having the note in his possession; he was in the water-closet; I waited until he came out, and I says, " Jolly, have you a note;" he says, "No, sir." , Q. Was that fellow taken to the bath-room ? A. Yesi; I brought him myself, and reported him to Colonel Bryan. Q. What was his name ? A. Forty-seven hundred and forty- three, JoUy; this man I brought before Colonel Bryan for having tobacco; the colonel asked him where he got the tobacco. Q. What did you see with reference to that man being ill-treated? A. He was locked up the day I brought him in; he was placed in solitary; two or three days following tMs I had another case, and T brought this man. Ward, in; he was charged, •with giving this man, Jolly, his task; I met JuUy standing in) front of Colonel Halpin, almost unable to stand, and he says to 621 me, "Major, what is the trouble;" I says, "I have another caaie here," referring to Jolly; he asked me the trouble; I told him Ward was accused of giving Jolly his task; he says, "Jolly, is that true," and Jolly couldn't hardly speak; he was doubled up like, and Jolly says, "No, sir; I done my task;" and Halpin says, " If yodi dom't Ml me tlie tmith I will knoiofc^ yon down those slaim; we don't want to take you to the baith-room any more;" the little fellow broke down crying, and says, "I can't stand it; I done my task ;" Halpin says, " The superintendent and I don't A\ant to beat you any more ; you have got enough already, haven't you;" the little fellow says, "Yes; I done my task." Q. What marks did he have upon his person ? A. I didn't see any marks, only th.e position he was in. Q. Were there any cases where you saw bruises upon the inmates that you know they received in, the bath-room ? A. Yesi, sir. I / Q. State all of tliem ? A. I worked in the plastering claisKi with a young fellow named Dwyer, 4429; he frequently went to the bath-room. Q. State what you saw and how you know that the bruises you saw upon him, if you did see any, were received in the bath- room ? A. One day he came to me, I was an, inmate at the timei, and says, "I am unable to stand." Q. Tell what, you saw ? A. The little fellow pulled down his tTousers and showed me the marks'; I saw that he had been beat by some instrument or other; I couldn't tell whether it was a strap or board; T- saw the red stripes right across his kidneys where somebody had been striking him. Q. The sikim brtofeeni? A. No; only red. Q. Any oither onei iihat you saw? A. Not that I know of. Q. Was he "^oat to the blood? A. Bed marks as fair as I could see. ^ ' Q. You say acTOSS hSis kidmieys — w'heneiaJboiuts? • A. Eight, across here. (Indicating hi® butltbck.) By Mr. LitcMeld: Q. Was thiere any enmity or quaroellimig between you and Nichlolsoaii? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever reported him? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Had yoiu reported hiim often? A. Not ofttener than whait he required it; I couldn't exactly say hxjw ofiteni I did report him. Q. Had you reported him oftenietr th^an other pdisiomers? A. No, sir. , , Q. You don't know of his having any ill-feieling agiaims* you in oanlsiequemce? A. Not ajs far las I can understand; I never ga;ve hiim suDiy cause. 622 Q. How about Clark; bad you any I'ows wirtfli Clark? A. This man was known throngtout ttie institution as a crank; lie had some personal feelings agiainst me. Q. Did you liave any rows with, kim? A. Eeiporrting him; not quaiiTellinig wiitih. him. Q. How about Mullen; had you haid aaiy quarrel with Mulleoi? A. Xo, sir; I hardly know the boy. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Bu(t you had reported Clark and Nicholsion? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you reported tHiem several times? A. Yes^ isir. Q. Poi" what? A. l»ro(bably talking or laughing. Q. Do you know whethea- they' had -at any time been marked in, in consequence of your report? A. No, sir; noit as I know of. Q. Had you erer reported Mulieiii? A. No, isiir. Mt. White. — I would like to make a statement in reference to those men. I wish to enter an exact copy of their court-martial record. There is no record on their conduct regiistter. I ajsked Major Hoppe for all the rc^cord he had in iief e-Pence to tihie couiit- miartial proceedings, and lie gaive me a paper, and this is an exact copy of it, and we have talcen off the part in type-writer, that wa« in type-writer, on his repoi't, land the part in lead pencil thai, was in lead pencil on his report. ]\[r. Litchfield. — The defendamts can offer the, original or correct this if they see fit Case of Major Dougherty. — 4424. Ckargfes. First, Being present when Thayer hugged and kisBed Facey. Admitted by Facey. Oorroborajtiedl by Fitzpartrick. ' Second. ilau.\' offenses of sodom\', estimated at fifty, by Nicholson, with, 4107, Nicholson. Third. One offense of isodomy with Clark, 4290, in filter-houise. Major Dougherty made many lile propositions to Clark at his room. FourtJi. Sodomy witih Mullen in fresco class'. Admitted by Mullen. Pfundie, Ni|chx>lson, No. 1. Faoey, Mdholson, No. 2. Clark, No. 3. MuUem, No. 4. New second grade recommended. 628 J Jameis Orumtoy, being duly e^vora, testified: Exiamiued by Judge Gilberlj:,' The same statemeult! was made to this witness by the ohairmaB as to the former witnesses. ! ' > ' Q. Have you b^en ooniined in th£ Elmira refo!rmatory? A. Yes, sir. , , Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York oity. Q. When? A. Tenth day of May, 1888. Q. WhaJt' foi"? A. Robbery frOm the peraou. Q.. Mustt degree? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is the maximum length of time you can be imprisoned fori that offense? A. Twenty years. Q. What was your age at the time you wei'« oon^^c(;ed? A. Tv^'enty. Q. Did you plead) guijty? A. No, sir. Q. Had^ trial before a Jury? A. Yes, sir. Q. The jury found you guilty ? A. Yes', sir. Q. Was the verdict correct? A. Yes, sir. ■ . ' i Q. What vs>-as it you robbed the party of? A. A watch from the pexHOu. Q. Ypu rp-bbed aniau of his watch? A. Yes, sir. « \ Q. Did you assault him? A. No, sir; there were two partiee; myself and another one; the ma,n thaiti was with jne assaulted him; I took the watch from him. Q. When were you transferred from the reformatory to ithls prison? A. Fourteenth of January, 1893. ' Q. Were ypu infomne^ before you were sent to the reformatory that if you -conducted yourself properly that you would be released aftei- a few months) ? A. One year; yesi, sir. Q. After you were sent there what watei the record you made, good or bad? A. I should say it was middling. Q. Were you marked in at any time? A. No-, isir; I never received a lock-up or chalked in in my room; never been found in any crooked work of any kind; once I lied; onoe I was reduced foi' noii being able to hold up my task in the factory, and I wasi reduced on another occasion for lying to save a man from the bath-room; that was both cases. Q. Those were the two charges made against, you for which you were reduced? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were reduced from fh.e citizen dress graide to the red suit? A. At this time of transfer here I was. Q. Were you reduced at any time to the red grade before you were accused of the charge ma.(Je againstl you before? A. Yes, sir; to the red suit on one Occasion. , 624 Q. What grade were tou in when the las* charge was made against von ? A. I was a paroled officer receiving salary. (J. HoAV long had yow been acting as a parole officer? A. Ten monthfl. Q. What was the salaiy von were to receive ? .V. Thirty-live or forty dollars a month andi my boaM. Q. Do you know at the time you were transferred how much of this salary you had standing to your credit? A. I couldn't remember sure; it was $150 cash- Q. That was standing to your credit eamt^. as wages? A. Yes, sir. <2. Have you received thaJt? A. No, Mr. Q. What were the circumstances or facts relatiUj^ to your transfer to this prison? A. The facits and circumstances wer^ all false relating to my transfer here; I am here innocent; the nine months I have been here I have suffered innocently; Khere were three charges made against me; two of the nlen have adjiiitted it, one there, one here, and Ihe other remains there, Mho, by the way charged me a year previous with the crime. Q. Who was it that made the lir.st charge against, you? A. I don't know who the first one wa-s ; the three were, a man named Xicholeon, a second one Ogden, and the third, "\^"ylie. Q. ^Iiat was the charge that was made? A. One made the charge said I made him masturbate me; Hie other made a charge of' sodomy and the third made a charge of sodomy; I was con- victed of these charges, not knowing I was convicted, a man, that \\ as in my iiowition, supposed to be a free man to a certain extent, of course I was under the rules; at'half-past 10 o'clock at night I was called down to the siolitary myself, and'a fellow officer, l>ougheiity; we were told we were convicted an,d charges made against us of sodomy; I \\anted to know if T was convicted; yes, I was convicted, without being present I was convicted; T asked to see my ai-cusera, and I was told it wasn't necessaiy, thereuponj beiug locked up that night; the next morning, I requested toi see the superintendent, and he came down and we had a little talk; it was altogether a noisy harangue, to make the best of it; the first man, Nicholson, was called in there; he told the superihtenden.t tliat I made him masturbate me; I asked him if he could prove it ; I asivod the superintendent if he could prove it ; no, he couldn't prove it; his word; that ^as all there was about it; the next man that was called in, I believe, was Wylie; I asked him myself if I ever had anything to do with him in any way, shape or manner; he said no; he never said so, but he said thisi man, named) ' Dougherty ; he told Mr. Hoppe and Mr. Brockway that he never mentioned my name at all; the next man that came in wasi Ogden; he wasn't a man, he was a boy; he stood up there and 625 cried diuring the whole talking; he said I committed sodomy with him -a yeaj" previous; that is, two months before I was made a piirole officer; I asked Mr. Brockway if he had ajiy other ofiQcep outside of this mian's word; no, he didn't; I asked him if he took these men'si word against mine; he said yes; now, it seems to me kind of sti'ange; I asked him why it was; I was iu; a position of triist, I rose gradually in his estimation and in the estimation of all the officers of the institution; I was, to a certain exten'^, over a good many citizen officers, inasmuch as they were subject to my dictation in some things; after placing all this /trust in me he takes an inmate and brings him before me and takes hisi word against mine; thos'e men couldn't prove what they said; in one case, where, I believe, this man named Dougherty was. not locked up together; by the way, the superintendent was going out, and he said he could prove his innocence; of course he couldn't prove his innocence, he was only a little excited; the superintendent turned around and asked him,to prove it; there it was; this man accuses me; I am an officer" and he is an inmate; he says to mej, " Prove' what this' man says isn't so ;" I says, " I can't prove it, I \:an only give you my word it isn't so;" this man accuses me, and I saj^ "Why don.'t you make him' prove it is so;" it wasn't necra- sary; he didn't ask that inmate to prove what he said, but he| wanted me to prove what T said was so; an inmate he dioesnt want him to prove. Q. Was that all the hearing that you had ? A. ThaA was all the hearing I had: Q. All the opportunity that was given, you ? A. All the oppor- tunity that was given me. Q. Do you know a man by the name of Woodworith and another by the name of "Shortel ? A. I knew them there. ^ Q. Did you know they also made charge against you, or gave proof against you ? A. Not as I know of; Mr. Hoppe read the charges of three men; I don't know of any more. Q. Were those charges, or either of them, true ? A. No, sir; none of them. Q. Had you, as an inmate officer, reported either one of thesle parties that you have named for shortage of their work, or for failure to comply with the rules of the reformatory in any] respect ? A. Not as I remember. Q. Are you sure of that; you don't know tho-e was any Ul-feelL- ing on the part of any of those toward you ? A. I couldn't answer that questioni yesi or noi; I ooiuldn't exactly remember whett^m I reported them otr mo* now. Q. Can you give any reason why these men ishbuld be mlaklLng f aisle charges against you? A. Afriaiid of phyisiiical treaitment. 79 626 Q. You don't know of any rea.son why tihey shioiild make false statements against you? A. Notfiiing outside of tluait. Q. Had you ever been con. vie ted of any offense before you were convicted of the ctrimle for wMcli you wene ^enit to tiie Eimira reformatory? A. No, slir. Q. Had you a trade when you went to the rieformatoiry? A. No, sir. Q. Wharti employment had you ibeen engaged in befoire you went there? A. Anj'thing I could get a position at. Q. Weren't you am expert ia making cane seiait ohadirs? A. No, sir; I understood how to make cane seati chairs., Q. Where did you learn that? A. When I was a boy 12 years of age sent to the Lawrence Indusitriial School for istaying away from school. Q. Where is tha*? A. Lawireaice, Massachusetts. Q. Was it a penal inistitution? A. No, sir; there were thirty boys there, truants. Q. How long were you confined there? A. Two^ years. Q. Under what name? A. James Orumby. Q. Have you ever went under amy othBP name besMes James Orumby? A. No, sir. Q. When you went into the refoiTmatoiry, did you inform Mr. Brookway, that you understood thait trade? A. No, air. Q. You concealed that fact from him? A. I didn't conceal that; he didn't aisk me. Q. Did you tell him tha* you had even been confined in this Lawnenoe reformiatory? A. Ye®, sir. Q. That is an industrial school? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You had a trial before a jury? A. Yesi, siix*. Q. Were you sworn' as a witness in your own behalf? A. Yes, sir. Q. You tesibtfled you were not guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. ThaA the charge waism't true? A. Ye®, afep. Q. What do you say now? A. I say I was guiity. Q. What you then stated under bath wasn't traie? A. Yes', sir. Q. You now insist, howe\'er, under oath tihait all that you have stated with ref ertence to your being sent to thiisi prison both with reference to the offense that you were accused of lamd everything connected with it; that what you have stated it true? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had any encouragement been held out to you that in a short time you would be paroled, that is, be permitted to go out of the reformatory and get employment? A. Yes, sir; that I would go the finst of April that timie. 627 Q. Who hyajct you coBSulted -wiitlli referemoe iio tlhiat? A. Mr. Bnockwa^. Q. "Wiia* wiais it tliait hje 'said 'bo joa upon that ocoasian? A. I was oajptain 'ait thaJt time; I wajs up to Mm befoTe that asking JhilTri to go oiart, amd he told me I bad better wait imitil' I got about |500 beforie I should .tihiuk of goimg; two months aftep that, I thii^ it was, he caJled me down and told me he was going to make me major and he thought best I Aoiild stay unitil the first of April and aocumulate more money, and on the flust of April he would let me gio. Q. Anything further thatt oiocuTred between you and Mr. Brock- way in reference to your being paroled of^anything else? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever made amy demand upon him for the money you olaiim was due ytou? A. No, sir; mot since I have been here. Q. You say the offense you committied' was, ypu and another fellow knocked a man down in the street and took hie watch? A. Yea, sir. / Q. Did you take anything else? A. No, sir. Q. What kinid of a watch wias it? A. A small watch woirth three doUans. Q. Gold or silver watch? A. Silver watch. Q. Man drunk or sober? A. He claimed he was sober on •the trial ; it seemed to me he was' a little intoxicated. Q. Were you under the influence of liquor when you took the watch? A. No, sir. ^ ' ' Q. Had you occasionally been under the influence of liquor? A. Never was under the influence of liquor but once in my life. Q. Whatever you done you^ done deliberately?, A. I done it deliberately. ' ' Q. Were you advised by counsel or anyone elsle to go upon the stand and swear you were noitl guilty? A. I wasj advised by my lawyer to swear I was not guUty, and siwear I was not guilty when I went to the reformatory also. Q. Did you tell the lawyer before he gave you that adivice that you were guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yet he advised you to go on the stand? A. Yes, sir; h^ told me he couldn't actually take the case in hand and work it the way he ought to unless he actually knew whether' I was inno- cent' or guilty; so I told him I was guilty. j Mr. White. — I would like to offer the same paper I offered in the last case, a fac simile of the court-maartial proceedings as near aa we could get, ' 628 Case of Crumby. Charges. • Firet. One offense of eodomy a year ago with Ogden. Second. One offense of sodomy with- Moholson. TMrd. One offense of propoisdng siodomy to NicLolson, Donu school claBS. Fourth. One offense of sodomy with WoOdAvorth, admitted by Woodworth. Fifth. One offense of sodomy with Shortell, admitted by Hhortell. Guilty — Colonel Bryan, "^"an Etten and Hoppe. Sentence — Second grade recommended. James H. Nicholson, being duly sworn, testified: The same statem'enit was m'ade to this witness by the ohaiiman as to the former witnesses. Q. Have you e^^eir been confined in the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where weve you sent from? A. NeAv York city. Q. What for? A. Forgery in the second degree; the forging consisted of indorsing a check for twenty-five dollars. Q. What was your age at the time? A. Eighteen. Q. WTio was the check forged against? A. W. H. Olarkson, 115 Broadway Q. "UTiat were your relations to him? A. None. Q. You forged a check? A. I was in the employ of J. L. Doug- lass, 115 Broadway, room 109; this check came to our office by mist&Jve; instead of turning it over to Mir. Clarbson', I kept it, forged the check and passed it on a restaurant keeper. Q. You forged the signature of the person named in the check? A. Yes sir. , Q. On the trial did you plead guilty? A. My lawyers pleaded guilty and asiked for the clemency of the court. " Q. You were sent to Elmira? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it with the undierstanding if you obeyed the rules of the reformatbry and conducted yourself properly you would be discharged after a comflnement of a fewj months? A. The judge said nothing of the kind, but my lawyers, as I understood it, had talked tb him, and they came to the understanding if I wouldn't stand trial and plead guilty I should be sent there, and my lawyer told me I would get out of there ini a year. Q. While in the reformatoiy were you punished about the time you were tlransferred to this prison,? A. Never. Q. What Avas your ccxnduct up to the time of your transifer? A. I went to the reformatory in June, 1890; the following year, 629 July, I wetot before the parole court, and my parole was autkor- - ized ito take effect in September; tlie Mlowiug October I was reduced to the convict grade; I was complicated in school fraiUds; I was school clerk om the floor; I wm reduced to the redJ grade and kiepltl locked up forty days altogether; and; I was put in the shop in tlie hard-wood! , finishing class, and four moraths after I wajs let out, making five months in all I wasi in the red suit; I was ajgain advanced to the black ^ade, having earned my pro- motion; six rdonths later I was again advanced to the upper fiist grade on October, 1892, and January niath, I think it was-, 1893, I was called in from the shop aaid taken to the solitar-y and charged with itlhe crime for which I ami here. Q. What wais your- age when you were first sent to the reforma- tory? A. Eighteen. Q. About January, 1893, what was the condition oif your health? A. I was never strong and healthy; I am chicken breasted; I have never ,known what disease is^ but I wasn't roibueit. Q. Aboujt what was your weight? A. I could not say; my weight I should say was aboiut 115, probably. Q. You may go on and state what occurred, aaid what led up to your transfer from the refoirmatory tX) this prison? A. On the fourth of Jaaiuary there was started a deal th'ere for licentious conduct; to use the words of the reformatory. Q. You say a deal started, what do you mean? A. There was a good many complicated, a lorusadte; I don't know what word to use, and they call it a crooked deal in the reformatbry; tihis was a wholesale slaughter on the men for lioentiousi conduct; from the fourth until the ninth there were men chalked in, and by the ninth there were about forty men chalked in in the solitaiy and on the rest-cure gallery. Q. ^Vho were those men, principally the convict officeiB? A. I should about thirty per cent- of them were convict officers!, the rest were men in all the grades). ' ' Q. Who were the principal ones in gettang up this "deal," as yoi] express it? A. Major Valentine wasi chalked in with another man, what one told from one to another caused' the chalking in. Q. You don't know why the story was started? A. One man gave the thing away on Valentine, that is the way it started; Valentine and another man were chalked in, as Valentine was major in citizens' uniform, parole uniform; thei'e were about forty men chalked in on the ninth; I was taken in from the shop; I was taken down to the solitary, and I was confronted by Mr, Hoppe and Colonel Bryan and Mr. Van Etten; I was taken from the shop by Mr. Sample; I was taken in; I sat down in a chair. Colonel Bryan aat on a chair on my left; he asked me if I didn't 630 expect to be chalked in; I saysi: "No, sir; " he sayei:| "Your con- Bcience is clear?" I says: "Yes, sir;" h.e called me an infernal liar and punched me with, his fist. Q. Wliere did he strike yon? A. In th.e face. Q. Who did you say this was? A. Colonel Bryan; Mr. Hoppe wa, silr. Q. Also receiving impraper propositions from, a man named Love? A. No, sir. 80 634 Q. And ajs being kuggiad and! kisised; by O'Domiell and reoeivmg vile pipopositions from him? A. No, sir. Q. When before tMs board, ija making youi* staitecoienit, was your statement taken down by lanyome? A. Mr. Hoppe liad papeirs "theire; I don't know wihiait lie wrotie down. Q. You don't know wS-etlieir he wrote do^wn in full your sitaitie- ment or not? A. No, sir. Q. Don't you I'ecollect your attention wia® called to it that you ga.ve the particulars or circumstances', the time and tihje place, and the pairtiicTfkurs with reference to nearly all of these occujTencesi or claimH relating to your hiavimg committeid the offenisie of isodomy? A. No, isirj it is not so at all; beciaiuisie I didn't; I Ixadi no connec- tion with them. I Q. In your statement before these offlcens did you go initoi par- ticulars, stating the tinie wliein these improper reiationis oocuired between you and Doughjerty; isitating the placei, tihe time, the paffiiticulairs, how it came aJbout, land all iabou;fc it? A. I really don't know what I did say on that day. Q. Didn't you say tliat you had this improper relation with Douglierty upon one occasion in the school-room before tlie class ca.me in? A. No, sii-; because I never called a roll where Dougherty wias on duty. Q. You said a moment ago Dougherity would have been the last man yon would have named, and that Dougheirty was the last man you named w hen you made the false charges? A. Yes, isir. Q. "^Tiy do you say that? A. Because he was so severe; there wasn't a man in the place thaiti he would eveni give anything to or have anything to do vdt'h; Ihe was sitmot^ miuded his own busi- ness, and attended to his own business and bothered nobody; severe he was and sent in many reports. Q. Isn't it true in consequence of Ms severity, his being rigid aa an oflflcer and accurately or fully reporting all violations of rules, etc., isn't it true that some of you fellows had a little bad feeling ifowards him? A. That is what it was down for, and I was used as the tool to down him. Q. It was true that you, with the rest, in consequence of Dougherty's severeness in reporting you all, that you shared part of that feeling toward him, unldnd feeling? A. No, sir; I did not; and I deeply regret it that I was mixed up with it; ithese charges were made against me by these two men; I was taken down there and I was compelled to admit it. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before you were sent to the refoTma)tory? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. What was the offense you have been convicted of? A. I M as in the employ of a coal merchant and he agreed to pay ihe 635 teu per cent and he didn't; he only paid me five; I took a bill and went to collect it and he had me arretsted; I wouldn't tell who I was in court; I said my folks were in Baltimore; it, wasn't so, my folks were in New York. Q. What name were you convicted under, ajud what name were you sent to prison under? A. James Hunter. Q. What was your real name? A. James Hunter Mcholson. Q. Your name now is James A. Meholson? A. I am here under the name of James H. Q. Are your parent^ still living in New York? A. My mother is, my father is insane, my 'Sitepmother rathei", my own mother is dead. ' Q. Have you any brothers or sisters? A. One brother in Chicago. Q. What business is your brother in in Chicago? A. WTien I lasti heard from him he was on the Chicago Evening Post; under the rules of the reformatory I could only write one letter' in two mouths, and I only wrote to my mother. Q. Where were you confined in New York for this offenL=;e? A, House of refuge. Q. How long were you confined there? A. About eight! months. Q. You were employed by isome coal dealer? A. Yes, sii-. Q. For your services or wages you were to receive a certain percentage? A. Ce?rtata percentage of the amount collected. Q. You claim it was ten per cent? A. Yes. Q. Your employer claimed it was five per cent? A. When he settled with me he only paid me five per cent. Q. You had retained out of the amounts coll6c:t'ed five per cent ? A. I had three bills that would have made it up ; when I collected the first one he had me arrested; he had written there and given instructions that if I came there to have me arrested; I really didn't get anything at all. Q. Did you plead gnUty to any charge made againist you? A. I don't remember; all I know I was taken there, and I know I wa.s taken away, and a few days later I was t^en to the house of refuge; I had nobody in court. Q. On the last charge did you plead guilty, or did you have a regular trial? A. I pleaded guilty. Q. On the supposition you were to go — A. (Interrupting.) To the New York State reformatory. Q. AjQd if you obeyed the rules you would be soon released? A. Yes; ge^t out in a year'^ time, and I went there and earned my parole ; my general conduct was good as far as the school was concerned ; was in. the higesti ciLass and' I could pass my examina- tion la hundred per cenitj, becausie I had been educated at a private schoiol; I had pasised throiugji all the higher studies before I went titeire. i , : , , \ • ■ ^.. _, 636 Q. "WKeire were yoiu edncajtiedl? A. SouWi Side Seminary, Patdh.b'guie, Ijong IsiLamd; I was educajtedi by my umcle. Q. How old were you wiiemi you were sent toi tOne hioiufiie of refuge? A. Over 16. / Q. How old were you whem you were sent to th.te' refoiimaboiry? A. Over 18. Q. Do you know what the maxinijuiin lenigtih of time isi as a penalty for the offense you, were comvicted of? A. Ten yeairsi; as I undenstand it. I Q. You sitiH insfet under; oa,tlh fhajt becaiUisle of feair of puniisii- ment you stated an umtrutih, with reference not only to yo^ur own conduct but the conduct of otherisi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which! has resulted in thtei dhiamging of your sentence from a sentence to the reformatory foe a few moaaitlhlsi, aisl you isupposed, to a senitence of impiisonment in a State piriBom for a term of ten yeara less the length of tune allowed for good behiawtor'? A. Yes, silT- Q. Your a.ge is now what? A. Twenity-one; I will be 22 in March; to hare it ch'ar so' there will be nothing thait wUl revert on m|e aJt all, what I said down in that' solitairy that diiy is not clear to my mind;" I may have said things that I can't recall now; I dioDi't know what I said, but what I said I said friomi fear; I was compelled to say it; I had mo defense ati all. Q. What you state now isi true? A. Whiaifc I istate now is true; I istand heire toKiay innocent of the charges) made against me; I would be willing to stand a fain trial befoire a judge and juiry for the charge made agaiost me, and with the same evidence birought ajgainst me before a judge and juTy I would never have been convicted. Q. What have you to say in reference toi those two parties? A. They are as innocent as I am; and I cam isay that amd ei\^ieair to it; I have said so to' the chaplaini, and the deputy. Q. They t^o are suffering imprisonment here in consequence of youir falsehood? A. They ame; you understlaindl I had no other al'teWnati've to do it. By Mr. litchfleld: Q. You aire acquainted with Dougherty, you know himi person- ally? A. I never knew him before I went to the reforanaitoiry. Q. Do you know Orumiby? A. No, sir. Q. Hare you ever noetl him in this prtusoiD? A. I see thiem; but I am in different company; I am in the marble shop office. Q. Have you ever held any converisatian with them, on this subject? A. No, sir; except tihe day w© were here in the office with the deputy and the dhajplain. 637 Q. Haivie tbey spoikeiQ to you on IMis sulbjecit ouitsidle of tihis roooa? A. No, isir. Q. Tliarti is tme? A. That is true. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You w^ere initieinviewed' by tlhlese two gmtlemieni? A. TMs gentiemiaiii Jiene. Q. Did, yoo isitaite to* Mm. wHiait you have sitated hierei, substiam- tiially, tine niadui facts? A. Yeis, sdip; itoi dietail I told hini eTeiry- thing from the minute I wm taken) froan the shiop untU I was sent here to the prisioai. Q. You ane rather timid laaiyway; 'arie you wot? A. Nervousi ' Q. Never have been a boy engaged m many flghtts? A. I never was puaiished in my life; mevier knew what a rod, ruler or stra-p was; that was AVhy ihisy had me oomplete'ly in thleir continol. Q. Didn't' Crumby laud Dougherty thirleaten you with physical videacte! or threaitien to whi^i you orpunash you omi your way over here, because you had made sitatoemieinte against them? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't they make isuch threats or threats of a similar char- acter on the train, ia the presence of the officer that had you in charge? A. Not to my hearing; the only thing that hais been said since I have been here was the first day; we came here out in the bath-room; when we were getting a bath a man named Caisiey, that came with us, said Dougherty would put a knife in me if he could; we locked in the flags for a time; Dougherty never attempted to do anything with me or Crumby eiither ; we marched in the same line. Q. Didn't Dougherty say something in the presence of the officer on the train? A. Not in my hearing; Dougherty sat in the rear on' the train, and I five seats from the fi-ont. Q. Who were you chained toi? A. A man named Eggleston; Dougherty was on the other side of the car. I Q. You couldn't speak to each other? A. We weren't in speak- ing distance; I never spoke to anybody coming up except Kerr, who sat behind me, and the man that was chained to me. Q. You have seen Dougherty here in the prison? A. No, sir. Q. You spoke a moment ago — A. (Interrupting.) I was in this room with the deputy and the chaplain with Dougherty. Q. How did you come to meet here? A. The deputy sent for me. Q. Do you know how he came to send for you? A. These men said they were innocent, and I believe they are fighting to get out of here, aud they asked the deputy to bring me in and hear my statement. / 638 Q. DoTNTi to tliat time had you stated to anyone what you had stated at Elmira was untrue? A. The chliplain from the day I came here, and to my mother in my letter. Q. To everyone you have conversed with from the time the accusation was made there, you have insisted that the stbry which you then told was untrue? A. Yes, sir; ever since I left the rrfonnatory and came away fiom Brockway; since I came hei'e there is not a man in the prison, but I keep it away from who- ever I can, because I have a poeition here. Q. TVliat is your position, here? A. Booklieeper in the marble A\orkis, and I don't lilte everyone to know it, and those who do know it I have always denied it^ and I dton't think any of them believe I was guilty. Q. Before you left the reformatory, didn't you, in private con- versatioil that you had with Brockway, admit to him, your guilt, and the guilt of these other parties? A. Noi, sir; I was' called \^) on the floor; that is, IMr. Samplei took me up; I was taken to the office and the superintendent sat there; C?olonel Halpin sat there ^^■ith some papers there, and Colonel Bryan sat a little in the rear ; I .«at down; he called my name, James Nicholson, the super- intendent did; he turn's to 'Mr. Hoppe am.d says: "He adtnlts these charges against him?" Mr. Foppe says: "Yes;" he turns to me and says: " Do you know what you are here for? " I i-:ay.<: " Yes; " he soATS: "You know what your maximum sentence is?" I saysi: " Yes; ten years; " he says to :Mr. Hoppe: " Degrade him and' sieind him to State prison for the rest, of his maximum term; " it came like a shol^ to me; T had been expecting tOi go holme; it was my swoiid time near home, and I begged and he wouldn't have it at all ; I went out and that was the last I saw of him, and Saturday moniing I came here. (}. Did you deny the truth of the charges? At No, sir. Q. Haven't you admitted the truth of these charges to other inmates in the reformatory? A. No, sir; never. Q. When you made the charges against Dougherty and the other were you put under oath? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever make any statement under Oath before in refer- ence to that? A. No, sir. Q. So whatever charges were made thi-ough you against these parties, they were not made under oath? A. No, sir; it was done to defend myself. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. What day of the week was it on which you 'had your conver- sation with Mr. Brockway; the laisit omie? A. I think it was Wednesday, the eleven*h dlay of Januairy, and on tflue fourteemth day of January, Saturday, I oamie hem. 639 Q. Ttoee days befiore yon were treunistfeaireid? A. Thr&e diays before my transfer, and Monday, Jauiuiary nilntJi, was wtLem I was in tfee blue suit, and taken fnom thie shjoip. Q. Tlhe elevenitb. was tlhe last day yoiu! hiad tbe comyeipsation with. Mr. Bnoickway on thd® nuaittefr? A. Yes, sdir. By Judge Griibetrt: Q. How long were yoiu kept in chaiiinisi befoTO yom were brougbt here? A. The chaimsi weire poit on oibout 3 o' clock thtei previoius aftermioon, irons tliat weAgbed about twemty or twenty-five poninds; it was put on my rigbt taot and on ihoisi lelft; we laid there all night wiltb it on from, about 4 o'clock thie previtoiusi aftemoom until the niexit morning, and tben we bajd to walk dowin the hill with the whole fifty, and when we got here we were taken in the bam amid taken off with a cold chisel. Q. In ithis interview which you bJave referred toi; didnft Mr. Hoppe, a member of the couirt-martiial, oir in tohe presence of the dooilrt-miajrtlial, say to you or ask you if you undeirstood the' effect thjait thie staitemientsi would have upon your standing agailnst these pairties; that it would lower your grade? A. No, isdir. Q. And did -you liot answer toi that saying yesi, you understood it; but yoiu wanted to have a clear consiciience and sta/te all you knew about it? A. iSTo, sir; I wais told I had no grade; I trjed to defend my grade; I tried to dftfenid my honor and everytlhing else, because I knew whjat I had done and what I haid not done; I knew froto the time I entered thie reformatoiry I bad tried toi do whlat wajs right; I may add here bad theise things been true, and tbat I made a charge;.! couldn't bave repoirted it; this thing is siutpposed 'to bare oiccuirred tbe previons isummer; it was brought up in January; there was nothing sieien or heard, simply tbese twio nien's words, and m.j own forced confession; and that is What I told this gentleman, and what I told everybbdj*. By Mr. Litchfield: i Q. Wbat has your conduct been Siince you have been here? A. Exjcenemt. Q. Yon haive not been punished? A. Nerer. By Judge GHbetrt: Q. Yon remember you have stated that you were eo confused or from some oither cause that when you wene below you didn't know Ideally what .you did siay? A. Yes, sir. Q. How is it you recollect isio aicounately whiat wais said? A. That was when I first went in; I went in; the fli^st thing ^aid to 640 me I -wias cliarged and I denied it, and I ref erined to my griadie and lie saj-s, '' You liave got no grade; " that wa's tlie first thing that was isiaid to me; I wiais ia tiheire, don't know hiow long. Q. YouiT mind is perfectly dear, waisi'then, and yorar memoiy ia dear with refeience to what was said down to the tiniL' «'hen you beoamxe so Intunidlaited by threats that you didn't know ? A. My mind is dear up to this time I sia.ti thiere and was proseiouited; I don't know what othep vford to use, and chjainged! I denied it; I was charged with licentious conduct; I was told I had noi grade; yet I spoke out and denied everything; then I wasi handed over to Mr. Sample, and thait gave a.wiay; my whole mervousi systiem gaA-e away, and I begged for mercy. - Q. You were willing toi admi* anything? A. I was willing to admit anything us sioon as I 'saw I waisi to he handed over to Mr. Brockway; I gave way everything; I begged for mercy. Q. Then is the time von don't know exactly what you; did say? A. I don't know whait I did say. Q. H(vw long has your father been insane? A. He was insane when I was 4 years old, and he was ingiane for a good many years 'because I ^^■als under the cara of my uncle; then he returned to the city and remamed in 1886 and took me from my uncle in 1887, my brother and myself, and my brother wouldn't stay with my father. Q. Is your father insane now? A. Yes; sir; he went in 1888. Q. In what asylum? A. New York city, on the island; my unolci is in Xo-w York; he don't know that I am here, and I don't want him to know I am here; he is president of the New York college. ' Q. When did your mother -die? A. When I wa® 4 years old; my father took caw oif me from April until Octotoer; then he went out of th& city and he didn't comei back, and the lady we were with sent us to our uncle and my uncle sent my cousin for us, anS lie had us from that time until 1887, a^nd ed^icated us in a private ;school, mostly on my account because I was :sickly and he put my brother with me. Q. Yoiur uncle does not know where you are? A. No, sir; he knew I was at the reformatory. Q. "^^'lia.t was your business ^^hen you were sent to the refor- matory? A. I was clerk in the office of J. L. Douglass, real estate office; the uian that caused my arrest and my employer and all want me off ; I have done all in my power. :Mr. White. — I want to put in the same paper in rc^ference to his easel, a fac simile of the court martial report and not a part of any conduct record on any book. 641 The Mlowing ia a copy of tlie eame: Case oi Nicholson. — 4107. Chwrges. First. Receivinig vile pro>poisitiODis from Majoa- OrumWe. Second. One offense of ;soidomy witlh. Major Grumfbie. ThiTd. Hugging and kissing with. Oaiptain Burke. Fourth. One offense of isodomy 'with Major Valentine. Fifth. One offense of isodomy with Oaptain Kelly, not here now. Sixth. Eeceiving viie propositions from. Oaptain Boyd; also receiving tobacco -from him. Seventh. One offense of sodomy with Mght Wiatich. Kelsot Eighth. Sodomy with Wlhltman, ■ and Receiving tofoaoco from same. Tenth. Eeoeiving tobacco and vile propoedtioms from Oliver. Eleventh. Sodom.y with Thayer' and receiving tobacco from same. Twelfth. Receiving toltoioco and improper proposition from Captain Love. Thirteenth. Eeoeiviilg viie propositions from Langer, 4062. Fouiteenitih. Rieceilving vile propojsition^ from. Wilson, 4054, and also tobacco. Fifteenth. Being hugged and kiased by O'Donnell, and receiving vile propositions from him. Sixteenth. Numerous offenses of sodomy, about fifty, with Major Douigherty. An the above is ^admitted by Nicholson. John Witzman, being duly sworn, testified: The same statemjenit was made to this vidtness by the ohairmaa as to tbe former vidtnesses. Q. Were you ever confined in the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Where wei-e you sent from? A. New York city. Q. Whati for? A. Burglary in the third. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Under a statement if you were sent to the reformatory and obeyed the rales — A. No, sir; they asked me wa« I guilty. Q. Had you ever been in prison before? A. No* sir. Q. What was your age when you were sent to the reformatory? A. Twenty-five. Q. What had been your occupation? A. Cooper. ' Q. Were you punished while you wei"e in the reformatory? A. Yea, sir; I was. Q. More than once? A. Yes, sir, . 81 642 Q. State the diffei-ent punishments you received and (he reasons why you were punished? A. The finst time I was punished I was paddled for thi-eatening an officer; I was going up through the yard eai-ly in the morning, with my bucket! in my hand, and this man seemed to be imposing upon me, which was ai lieutenanib; I told him: " You want to let up on your reports now, if you don't you might feel the oomsequen^es of it;" "Get up there inl line;" caught hold of me and give me a shove; I says: "You let me alone, I ain't no dog;" he siiys: "You want to keep in line the Same as the rest of the men, or I will pull you out; " I isays: " Pull out, and be damned; " he brought, me out in front of the colonel, and the colonel locked me' up; told the colonel I called hiin all kind of \'ile names, and I was paddled for it. Q. How many blows?) A. I believe I received at least fifteen. Q. Where? A. Across here (battook). Q. Any blows struck on any other part of your body? A. I received two blows over the face at the time for turning my head ajid halloing for mercy. ' Q. Did you cry? A. T did; yw, sir; I cried like a child that had been whip]>ed. Q. What was said to yon when you turned you head and you received the blow ovei- the head? A. I was halloing: "Please don't, Mr. Brockway, and I won't do it any more;" he says: "I hope TOU don't; '' and when he let me down he sayiS to me: "Do yoii ithiuk you can behave yourself now?" I siays': "YeS." Q. You say when he'let you down? A. When' he let me away from the wall. Q. You weren't stning up? A. No, sir; not that time. Q. Were yon punished again? A. Yesi, sir. Q. What for? A. They accused! me of giving a boy a chew of tobacco; I had a room-mate. ' Q. At that time were you an officer? A. Yes, sir; I was a lieutenant officer; I was rooming with a young, man named Wil- son, and he was looked up for giving a boy a chew of tobacooi; he was locked up for two days; I was rem'aining in the same roOim, and one Monday night I was called on| the guard-room floor and asked by Mr. Hatpin, he Says: "Witzman, did you give WUsom, " this is another Wilson understand, " any tbbaocoi? " says I: " 'No; " he say.s: "Look here, Witzman, don't give me none of that; this is an old fake; we undersbajnd this business'; " I says: " Mr. Halpio, I know nothing about this;" he says: "We will iind out;" he walked away and came back aigain to me and says: "Here, Witz- man, I will tell yo'U what I will doi; you tell me where' you got that tobacco and I will save you from going down in your grave; if you don't 'tell you wiH only get yo'ur arse broke till you dO' 643 tell; " I says': "Mr. Halpin, I am, an innocent mam; I know noth.- ing aboiut any tobacco;" ^'WoU," he says "we will see;" so he went in; Mr. Brookway was sitting in the inside of the cage there, in the back departknent, and he asked him, spoke to him aibou* Bom€*hing, and Halpin saysi: " Oome along wiii me; " so Mr. Halpin and the drum' majoir whoi was there at the time, he had the biuttons on Mm, a paroled prisoner; two officers took me down in the solibaiy, imstrijpped my c-lothes naked, examimed, me, smelle'd them, is^arched them in eveiy way, and foiund no sign of toibaocOi; he says: " You are pret.ty foxy ; " i says: " Mr. Halpin, I don't know what yon mean by putting me down here; I am lan iunoceut mau;" he sayvSi: "Wilson says you gave him tobiaeooi;" I says: " Wh'ait else could he say? " and he hauled off amd gave me a punch in the stomiaioh, and said: " Gtod damn you, I didn't bring you down here to crose-quiestion me; I want you 'to understand it;" he fired the clothes in a. cell, and sa.ys: " (ret in here and put them on; " I was left thiere until the next day, noon; Tuesday I was brought dkDwn to the bath-room. Q. That wais in one of the ordinary cells? A. Just befoire you go into the back part of the solitary, kind of receptito cells. Q. Any bed in there? A. Yes; there were a couple of blankete in thei'e and an old tick ; I wae^ talien down to the solitary Tuesday alter dinner; I was taken down in a hurry, run down there; I got down in the liatlh-room and he saJ^iS: "Who'is this?" he isays: " This is Lieutenat Witzroian who gave Wilson aj chew of tobacco." Q. Who ;said thait? A. Mr. Halpin, to Mr. Brockway; I says: " No, siir; I didn't do no such thing; " " Oh," he sayisi; " Don't tell me that; I will knock you down; now, I want you to tell me, or I wiU skin yolu aJive; " he-\yent ait me in such an angry passion that I actually didn't know what toi do; I stood there shivering and him halloing at me, iand he, says: " Damn you, get over to the wall and talie down your pants; " I says: "No, sir; I don't deserve no pad- dling; " he isaye: " If you don't talce them down we will take them down for you ; " there wa.s noi more said and they took down my pants in a. hurry; I held up my hands and he commenced to pad- dle me, and gave me twenty whacks, and I fell down on my knees several times, begging for mercy; he knocked me down on my kpees once. Q. Where did he strike you? A. Eight across here, and he saye : " Take bim out, damn him, and 'bring him down here tohmor- row ; " I was rushed out in a, .hurry, and I didn't know what "to do; I was discouraged to thinlt I should get paddled for that man saying I gave him a chew of tobacco, where he had another man locked up foT two days; he, siaid; "This man gave me a chew of tobacco," 'and two days after he turned aixjimd and said: " I miade a mistake; it was Lieutenant Witzmau save it to me;" 1 was taken down and cliained down in tJie solitary (ken. Q. At tke end of tlie second paddling you were taken amd chained in the solitary? A. Yes, sir; I was chained down by tlie wrist. Q. To what? A. To a handcuff, twoi handcuffs*; there was a. small cihain between the two handcuffs, and one handcuff was attached to a ring close to the floor and I was down to it. Q. Any bed there? A. Yes, sir; there was; I was brought up Wednesday and paddled again, and he istruck me, five times and I fell to the floor, begging for mercy. Q. That was the third consecutive time? A. That was the third consecutive tim.e I was paddled in the refomiatory; I was hung up; h(^ sa.yjs: "If you don't stand up>, we will haug you up;" he put a pair of handcuffs on me and hoisted me up to the win- dow about that distanci- from the floor; I should judge about close to a foot; I couldn't see down below me because I was up this way (indicatinig). Q. Your feet didn't touch the flooi'?' A. No, sir. Q. Nor your toes? A. No, sir. Q. You hung entirely clear of the floor? A. Entirely clear; I reached up and I held on the rope so the handcuffs wouldn't hurt me, and I hung thej-e until I couldn't hold any more, and down I came about that distance, and then I couldn't touchi the floor; paddled me there; I guess he gave me eig-hteen or twenty whacks, untQ I was most unconscious, and! he hitl me five or six blows across the face, Avhile T was hanging up there, and says: "Damn you, shut up." ' Q. Wliile he was paddling yon what did you do? A. I was beg- ging him for mercy's sake to leave me alone, because I was an innocent man; God knows I never gave that man a chew of tobacco in my life. Q. "When you received the blows over yon head, was thalti when you turned to beg for mei-cy? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that the only pui-jiose? A. That wasj the only purpose. Q. Anything further? A. "VMien I was let down I wasn't able to walk; I leaned up against the wall like this (indicating), and Mr. Brockway says: "Oh, damn him, take hihi ont;" sioi I was taken out; Mr. Mnrphy led me out and lodged me up in one of the cells, and when he got through paddling with the other boys he took me down and chained me down again. Q. In the same cell? A. Yes, sir. Q. In tihe same way? A. Same way, and brought me up Friday, and Friday I was hung up right away, at once ; nm me right over there and says: "Damn you, if you don't tellj I will kill you;" I 645 was Imng up there anid lie padded me, amd I was halloing for mei'cy ; the whole side of my face was allj skimied with the pad- , dling where he hit me with the paddle, and when he lettl me down I was taken out to the same thing and brought down to the solitary again and! chained down again, and Satuixlay I was br-oughtl up again/ he A\as standing in the hallway right on that, coi-ner near the registei'; he stood on this register, and he saw ■ me coming up the hall and says: "Little boy, come iwev here;" Mr. Murphy was going up with me through the hall; he saysi: " Go ahead oiver, and have a good talk with Mm; " I srtlaggered over till I got oiver to the register, and he sayisi: "Little boy, come ~ over here, I want you to tell me who gave you that) tobacco'; " says I: " Mr. Brockway, I know nolthing at all about the tobacco; " " Look here," he sa!,ys, " I don't want to take you in and outi you all up;" I says: "You have done that;" he says:' "That is noth- ing; if I should kiU you it would be all the same; " I shivered, and I didn't know what to doi; he says: "Witizman, here you have been here over three years, and never was in crooked business before, and you ishould start in now, it looks kind otf strange; " he walked over to Mr, Halpin, and says to Mr. Halpin: "I don't know what tlo make of this; I don't believe the man fe guilty," Mr. Halpin; " Oh, the God damn liar; " the superintendent -gays: "Oh, wash him up and send him up where he belongs;" I was jusli as glad to get out of there asi I would if I was going home to-ndght, and more so. Q. What marks, ii any, were made upon your person by those blows? A. There is one of them right here (indicating); the whole side of my face was skinned. ,Q. Any other marks made? A. The whole side of my cheek was all raw. Q. Any miark on it now? A. I believe there is. (The witnlese expoises his buttock.) Mr. Litchfield. — Bee if you can find a scar on his fate. Dr. Wey. — • There is a small pit, three-quartens of an inch above the outer margin of the left eyebrow. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did the leather strap reach around on your stomach? A. I should judge it came to about there; I went in my room after coming in from military. Q. Were you punished again? A. No, sir; I was not; I was guilty of several little deeSis after' that;| I felt] as if I didn't care anything for myself. ' Q. You weren't taken to the bath-room and punished any more? A. No, sir. 646 Q. Were you, in fajdt, guilty of giving thiat inmate totaicoo? A. No, fiin; I was not Q. Anything to do with, it? A. NoitMng at all, whatsoeyer. Q. What bad your recotrd been up to the time wlien the chairge "Was made against, you that you h.ad given this innuate tobaioco? A. The only MIut© I tad against me wais in scikodl. Q. You had been an offlceai for how long? A. Close up to two months. Q. What suit were you in when you were paddled flnst? A. Lieutenant's suit; that was the ftrsit graxle. Q. Do you know why you have beeiii^trainisferined to this prison? A. The only reasoja that I know of is simply beoauise Mr. Brock- Avay thiough/t that I was one of th,'esie men that wouldn't tell if they did know, or was gmlty of this chiarige. Q. WeiPe you ever charged witi. the crime of sodomy? A. No, sir. Q. The only thing you know anything albout is that you wouldn't confess or admit when you were charged with cuime or vidaition of tiie rulw? A. Yes, gir; tliait is the only thing. Q. Did ;^'ou ever refuse upon any other occaisiion to discloise what you knew or were you punished any other time for not telling what you loiew? A. No, sir; I wiais not; here isi a thing just called to my mind; I wais looked up for four days, iand was chained down in the solitai'A'; IVIi". Winnie accused me of trying to make my escape; he said I had a box I was gotnig to hide myisielf in it in order to make my escape. Q. Were the blinds open or shut while you weie in the solitoiry? A. I didn't see no blinds; it was dai'k in thJe solitary; it was dai'k duanng the day; it was light at night time, because 'there was a light close in front of tihe cell. By Judge Gilbert: Q. In which i"ow of those solitaries were you in; were you in the I'ow next to the windows? A. No, sir; on the back side. Q. Do you know whether there were 'any blinds drawn over those windows oi" not? A. That I couldn't say; I remained there for four days; Mr. Winnie threatened me with blows; said he would come in there and punch me, and siaid, " Damn you, I will make you tell if I come inj there;" when I came out I went to my room, and the night or two after that I received a flrst-elass chocolate report for communicating with a man named Brady, attemjpbing to make my escape; says I, " That will go bajck in the morning;" I sent it back in the moraing to be inivestigated, and ■two weeks after that (Monel Bryan called me up, and says, " Witzman, this is a very serious charge we have against you, and I will give it a thorough investigation;" siajyis I, " Thank yon;'* he 647 says, " It may cost yoiu yoiun slBoirt time if you are foiumd guMty ;" says I, "I hope ycu -will give it a tho-roaigh. iBTeertdigatiioii; you will find out I am an inmoicemt man;" a day or two after thiat tie gave me a court-mairtiial, and I wias called into tke snfpetriai- tendent's room on the g■nard^^oom floor, and aisked me whiatl I knew albiout this; I says, I knew jnst what Mr. Winnie had told me; tha/t was all; he wanted to loww what that was; I told him Mr. Winnie had told me that he nudenstood that I had a box I was going to hide intqi; I said that was all I knew; says he, " Is that aU you know?" I saysi, "Yesi, sir;" he ,siays, '"Ehat will doi;" I heard Mr. Halpin make the remark, " That man knows nothing about this; you can't convict that man;" a young man named Pat Bnady; it was Mm trytnig to make his esciape; he cut a.U the wires; it was told to me afteirw^ardis." Q. You had nothing to dO' with attempttinig to escajpe? A. No, sir. , Q. You were tried and lacquitted? A. Yesi, sic; I reioeived a chocolate neport; undoubtedly canceled. Q. Were you ever convicted of any other offense? A. No, sir. Q. Ever in prison before? A. No, sir. *Q. Eveir aooused of' amy cirime before you were sent to Elmira? A. No, sir; just that one I was sent toi Elmira for. Q. Were you tried, or did you plead guilty? A. I took a plea. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. When you said you were in the isolitaory celH were you in the thi-ee^eoimer ceEs, not squarei cells? A. Three-.eomer cells; I sihould judge they were three-corner. Q. Do you reaiiemiber the date? A. Not exactly to the date, but it is a year ago last month that I ihad been paddled three times in one week. Q. The. date you were confined in the isolitary cells; do you remember that date? A. No, jsir; I do not. Q. Or the month? A. No', sir. Q. Was it a yea,r ago? A. I should judge it was two years ago, if not over that. Q. When you were paddled, how many times in all, do you say you were paddled? A. I was paddled four times. Q. Oan you give me the dates, about, of those paddlings? A. The last three paddlings I wceived was a year ago last month, if I am not gireatly misrlaken. Q. You were paddled ithree times in one day? A. In one week. Q. That would be October, 1892? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were: paddled three times in one week then? A. Yes, sip. 648 Q. Wken did yooi receiTCi tiie fourth, paddling? A. Before that, about a year before that. Q. Aibout October, 1891? A. Somewheres in thaA neigbbor- hood; I dom't exiaotiy remember. By Judge GrUbert: Q. You sa.y you were indicted for buTglary, third degree? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were the facts in reference to it? A. I went into a boirading-ihou'se that I was acquainted with, and took a coat amd vest. Q. In tihe n%ht-timie or day-liime? A. In th.e afternoon, about 2 or 3 o'clock. Q. Weren't you indicted for some higher offense? A. No, sir. Q. Whose coat and vest was it? A. Belon'ged to one of the buys tbat wais boairding in the boarding-house; I was intoxicated and I went up to see one of the iboys, and I don't know what possessed me in the world, but I put that coat and vest on and walked out. Q. How did you get into the house,? A. Through the basement door; the basement door was open; there was nothing broke in at all; I was well acquainitied. Q. Had you been frequently in the liouise? A. Oh, yes; I had a brother-in-law who boarded theire quite some time ; I knew mostly all the bo3's that wene in the bouse. Q. That was the only offense you ever committed? A. Yes, sir; the only one. Q. What ip the maximum lengtlh of time you may be punisbed? A. Five years. Q. Before you were puni&hed the firat time you received several typewritten notices that unless yoraip conduct was better you would be punisbed? A. I received one that I can remember. Q. Weren't you taken to tbe bath-room several times and admonished you muist do better? A. 'No, sir. Q. Were you ever taken to tbe batb-room and admoni^sbed and not punisibed? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times? A. Once. Q. Was that before you were paddled the first time? A. No, sir; after tbe last time I was padffled. Q. Before you were paddled tbe second time, before you were charged with tbe offemsie of giving an inmate tobaocoi, weren't you admomfebed several times? A. I don't remember ajs I was. Q. Don't you know; aiPter you were punisbed the first time and before you were punisbed for giving tbe inmate itobaoco? A. I received one notice after that; after I had been paddled once; 649 it was quite some time aifter tiatl; I eikcraldl judge about aix mouths aiter that; lie sent me another notice. Q. Wharti grade were you in then? A. The red clpthea. Q. How long after you went into the reformatory before you were reduced to the red clothes? A. I believe it was four or five months. Q. Then you were raised to the middle grade again? A. Yes, sir. Q. From, that you were raised to the fest grade? A. No, sir. Q. Weren't you ever in the first grade? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you raised from the second grade to the first grade before you were isient to the red-suit grade? A. I was in the red suit then; then I went in the black isuit, and from, the black I went down in the red, and from the red to the black, and from the "black to the red, and from the red to the black, and from the black itto the blue. Q. You were in the blue-suit gi'ade at the time you were pun- ished the three times during one week? A. Yes, sir; I was reduced to the red suit. Q. Weren't you chaa-ged with sielf -abuse? A. Nd, isir. Q. W'ere yiou charged with pretending to be sick; false pre- tences? A. I will tell you how that was; I was working — Q. State whether you were charged with 'that? A. I was unjustly. Q. You claim that was not true? A. That wasn't true. Q. Weren'ti you charged! with theft? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember what it was? A. I do. Q. What was it? A. It wasi emery. Q. Was it true? A. It wais a little emery; I rolled down about ' ten barrels dowmstlairs, and I had spilled a little on the fioor, and I picked it up and took it in my room to polish my tiuiware with, but it was talcen from me. , Q. You were aocused of stealing of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't mean some other convict stole it from you? A. Oh, no. > Q. You were charged with that and there was some truth in it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were charged with lying too? A. Yes; that was on account of that tobacco. Q. Was it mainly in reference to that? A. I can't just remem- ber whether it waiS or not. Q. How was it in reference to fighting; you were a little inclined to that? A. I should call that unjust; there was no( fighting so far as my part was concerned. Q. Didn't you threiaiteDi to lick the inmiatesi, some of themi? A. No; not in one way, and in another way I merely protected myself; 82 650 a young man pushed me out of the line three times, and as I stepped in every time he pushed me out Q. Weren't you also charged with creating a disturbance in the shop? A. No, sir; not that I can remember — yes; I was; I can remember that. Q. There was something of that? A. Yes, sir; I received a mark for firing a paste-board box. Q. And also charged with destroying property? A. I can remember; that was that paisite-board box thait I threw at a boy; I threw it in the comer at him. Q. Weren't you also charged with smoking? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that true? A. No, siir. Q. When you were an officer didn't you' simioke? A. No, sir. Q. Also accused of making threats? A. That was the time I was paddled. Q. Weren't you charged with| receiving one dollar from a man by the name of White to buy tobacco? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was true? A. Yes, sir; I acknowledged that. Q. Also for alcohol? A. Yest, sir. Q. That was true? A. Yeei, sir. Q. Wias this before or after you 'had beem pumishied? A. After. Q. As you undersitand it, when did these various tpansactions occur to which I have specificially called youa" ajttenitioin'; did they occur before you reached the last paddling? A. Two of them after I got the lals* pa.ddltnig 'and the rest of itihem before; I got paddled the last time. / Q. Which two were after ? A. Alcohol and the dollar. Q. Do you know the leason w^hy you were traiOslferired' to this prison? A. No, sir; I don't know.' Q. Wasn't it because of these tiwo last ohairgesi? A. Thait I couldn't say; it mighjti have been. Q. While you were being piumishied did Mr. Bixnokway use profane languiage to you? A. He did; he b&js, "Damm youi; I will kUl you." Q. Any other profane liaaiguiage than thlaiti? A. No, sir. Q. You have stated, in anaibstlajnce, all the paroifanditlijefii that Mr. Brookway nsed toward youi? A. Yesi, sir; " Dajmn you;" that is all. Q. Did you hear any of the officers ujsle profajne lainguiage to the inmates? A. No, sir; not that I could rememlber. Q. Do you know of the officers using tobiaccoi in' amy form in the preseoice of the immiatesi? A. I doi Q. In what Avay? A. They chew and spLt out' thlereL Q. The citizen officers? A. CMizen officerisi and paaxde officeais. Q. How was it in nefeirenoe to dmokingi? A. That I never saw them, da , 651 Q. Hoiw waa i^t in riefepemce fo tiliie officers), painoledl on ciiSzen offioefflsl, using profame lamguage to 1jh,e piriisiofiieira? A. I never heaiP amy of litem.' that aanoumt to laniythiiig. Q. What, if anytihing, did you isee in refetpemce to prisoners being seivierely bnuAsed or pumislhedi by any of the officiere? A. I halve seen a paipoiled inmate go up and hit a prisoner a punch ia the nose; that is, prevent a man from partinig apother. Q. So fan as punsiuments received in the baith-roomi; known of any to have marks upon them or bruise® upon them? A. I have seen lofta of men come out of that bath-room withi big siwelled eyes, etc., and lanne. Q.' That you saw themi asi they came out? A. Yes, siip. Q. C5an you name any of them? A. I can name one man particulairily that wais paddled on Sunday. Q. Whia(t,wasi Mb name? A. John Sullivan. Q. Oan you tell about whaiti tinue in the year it wa®? A. Eijgtotth of las* January. Q. Do you rememiber has consecutive number? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see any bruises or m'arbsi upon him? A. Noi, sir; I didn't take any particular notice; I know he got quite a seveire padldling from the aotioihis of the man; he wiasilamB; eevenal othJerB got paddled vditih him; I don't know itheit- names. Q. Do you know what for? A. I believe it was for talking from one woom to the othier. John, MjcCormiok, bieinig duly iswora, teBtiifled: The siasne sibatement was made ,to this witness by the chiaLnnan ais tto the formeiri witnesises. Q. Have you been confined in the ELmiria refotrmatory? A. Yes, eiiir. , ' Q. Wihere were you sient from? A. Nen' York city, July, 1891. Q. For what? A. Girand larceny, second degree. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yeisi, eilr. Q. What was your age when you were sent? A. Eigihiteen years old. Q. When were you transferred to his prison? A. Sislih of Septeanber, 1893. Q. Before you entered the reformatory, had you ever been imprisoned in any other place? A. Yes, sir; New York penitentiairy. Q. For how long a time? A. Five months and two months. Q. What for each time? A. Petit larceny. Q. Did you teU Mr. Brovkway that? A. Yes, sir. Q. H&ve you ever been in any other prison than that? A. No, sir- I told Mr. BixDckway I was in Moyamensinig prison, but I never was tihe:5e. 652 Q. You now state you have 'been in the penitentiary twice? A. Yes, sir. Q. You hsuve only been imprisoned twice in tbe penitentiary before you oaome to Elmira? A. Ye^ sir. Q. Do you kniow the reason why you were transferred to this prison? A. Yes, sir. !> Q. T^Tiy? A. I laid my aa-m on a block and pounded it with an iTon mallet Q. T\Tiat for? A. To get drafted; I wanted to get sent to State prison. Q. You would rather be imprisoned' in State pinsion than in the refomDatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you been punished in the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times have you been taJien to th.e bath-room and punished? A. T^'ice. Q. Had you e^ier been operated upon for a rupture before you came to the prison? A. Twice. Q. Had you been rujptured before tliait? A. Yes, sir. Q. On iboth sides? A. On both sides. Q. Had you been operated upon on both eidejS? A. Yesi, sir. Q. AVTiat oc'Ciirred in the prison with reference to your rup^ ture? A. They took me down to the bathiroom and paddled me, aud a fe^v' days it came out on one si'de, and I kept suffering from it all the time; I went to see the doctor. Q. What did the doctor ;say when you showed it to- him? A. Said I wae a miserable fraud. Q. Wliat, if amytliing, did he do for you? A. Didn't do anytliing. Q. "WTiait, further, if anything? A. That is all at thait time; he wouldn't do an.^'t'liing for me; I iha4 to drill and erery thing else; it painjS me now. Q. Had the hernia healed when you came to the reforanatorf ? A. YeSi sir. Q. Were you exaanined by the physici&,n? A. I was; examined by the hospital steward. ' Q. A reoord made of your examination, as you undefmtamd! it? A. I believe there was. Q. You jsiay that after you were paddled the ruptuire came out again? A. Yds, sir. Q. You spoke to the doctor aibout that; what doctor? A. Dr. Wey. Q. The only thing he said in reply was that you were a fraud!? A. A miserable firaud; he examined me and tried to shoive his finger up under me, and I couldn't stand the pain and he siaid I was a miisieiiable fraud. 653 Q. fe that all you deealrie to^ jsay in reference to tiie nipttune? A. That is aiU on ttiait sdide; I went down aifterwards; I wasi car- ried on both, sldes^; I went doiwn in Jamua.ry, 1893; I was paddled there and when I wetnt down on my knees I had a kick in here. Q. You say yon were paddled twice? A. Yes, sir. Q. The first time hiow miany blows did you receive? A. I am not sure how many I recei'ved, but I got eight or nine on my back, and I got four aicroes' ithe head. Q. Wha/t wei-e you doing when you received blows across the head? A. I had my head turned the wrong way. Q. "What did you say? A. I didn't say anything; I only kneeled whenever I got hit. Q. You would cry out with pain? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you beg for mercy? A. Yes, sir'; laid. Q, Then you received blows across the head? A. Yes, sir. Q. Leave any marks upon your face or head? A. Yes, sir; I had one down the side of my face, my ear was swollen up and my face; then 1 got one across the fod'ehead, and the others were on top of the head. ; *. Q. Did it leave any marks on thel side of your, head or across your fotrehead at that time? A. Yesi, sir; black andl blue. Q. At that time you say the rupture came out again, from whioh side? A. The first/ time it came out thdsl side, the right side. Q. The second time? A. The second time I was kicked. Q. What were you punished for the second time; what had you been doing? A. There wasi a man next to me had a piece of umbrella, he wanted to get rid of it so he could loaf; worth about two cents; he toiok it and tore it in half au'dl gave it to me, and I threw it in the scraprbox ; that is ^\'hat I was paddled for. Q. The second time how many blows did you receive? A. T don't know; I thinlc eight or nine. Q. Were you istrung up either time? A. No, sh. Q. Simply directed to stand up facing the window, and puti up your hands? A. I had to turn my head to the right toward the keeper. Q. What occurred the second time? A. The second time when I was getting clubbed across the back I yelled, and he got mad and pulled out and gave me a kick in the side. Q. Who kicked you? A'. The supeiintendent. Q. Who was present at thati time? A. Mr. Sample and Mr. Halpin. Q. Stand up and show the committee where tou were kicked? A. Eight in here (indicating). Q. In the groin? A. Yes, sir. ! Q. WeW!. you standing up or lying down when you were kicked? A, I was isitlaniding up; when he hit me I went down like that (indi- 654 eating) ; as soon as I went over I got a kioK, and! then I got chased out of the bath-poom. Q. ■\\''hat" effect had thati upon you? A. My testicles were srwollen up, and some of my intestines came down inside, some in the back end. / Q. After the second paddling- you had a rupture on each side? A. Yes, sir. I Q. Are yon still ruptured? A. Yes, sir; one side can'ti be noticed much; it generally c^n be noticed when 1 lay down, when I work hard, but this one of the testicles ai'e down all the Ifime. Q. On the left side? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^'ou may .show? (The witness exhibits his person.) Judge (lilbert. — Do you find" any rupture there now? Dr. Wey. — Xo, sir; the intetjtine is not down in the scrotum; Mhat he claims is a rupture pearance has existed since you received these blows down to the present! time? A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. In the pairticulara which you have indicated, doctor, is the right eye different in appearance from the left eye? Dr. Wey. — Yes, sir; a greatler degree of congestion in the right eye than in the left. Q. What do you say in reference to the size of the eye, the ball? Dr. Wey. — I don't, see any difference; the eyesi appear to be 1ihe same in size. Q. What were you employed ait ta the reformatotcy? A. Molder. Q. What were you employed at before you came to the reforma- tory? A. I worked in an oil refinery. Q. Had you ever had inflammation of the eyes before you came to the reformatory? A. 'No, sir. Q. In the re&wmarfjory you say you worked in the foundry? A. Yea, sir^ Q. What are you working at here? A. In the enamel-room. Q. Were you ever convicted of any other crime? A. No, sir. Q. Ever in prison before you wenit to the reformatory? A. No, sir. Q. In a prisoli of any kind? A. No, sir. Q. Sure of that? A. Sure of that Q. What was the offense of which you were conviofled? A. Burglary in the third. Q. What are the facts, did you enter a house? A. They said I entered the back of a store; this woman couldn'tl identify me aa the man, bull the officer said it wais, because I had a cut on my wrist. 659 .Q. Whoever entered, did they break a windofw? A. ThariJ is what -they claimed. ' Q. You had a cut on your wrist? A. Yeis, dr. Q. Claimed to haVe beeai made by) glaiss? A. Yes, ®ir. Q. How did you, in fact, get the out? A. I was fighting about ten minutes before that with a Mlow. Q. In tihe neighborhood where this burglarv ooourred? A Yes, sir. Q. Did you have any of the proiperty? A. No, sir. Q. Any of the property found near you or upon your person? A. No, sir. Q. Wbat was, taken? A. He claims notihing. , Q. Simply breaking into a buUding? A. Just breaking in. Q. What proof was there against you? A. That was the ooly proof he had against! me; he told the judge I never worked at anytbing, only banging aronnd the corners; bie arrested me on suispioion; they didn't hold me in the stations-house. Q. Where are yotur people? A. They are pretty near all dead now; I have two brothers and a sistter living. , Q. Your parenta are niot living? A. Noi, sir. Q. Any of your relatives been convicted' ofl crime? A. No', sir. Q. Any brothers? A. No, sir. ' Q. You say your employment before was what? A. In an oil refinery. Q. Haven't you a brother ttoti i^ ini the penitentiary now? A. No, sir. Q. Sure? A. Sure. Q. Haven't you had a brobber in the penitenltiary? A. Never, not to my knowledge^ Q. Didn't you tell the superintendent when) you entered the reformaitoiry you had a brother ih the penitentiary? A. No, sir; I tt)ld him that he was goiinig to the penitentiary; that he got ten days in jail. Q. For what? A. For being dinmik. Q. Did you occasionally geij drunk? A. Once in a While I would get a little drunk. Q. How wa« it on the occasion when they claim you committed this burglary? A. I was standing about 250 feet away from this place, standing aliiitaipy iom? j^. TVw not doling my work. Q. Wasn't it for Tefusing to do yoop work? A. Noi, mc-fiJ d0n't think it was for not doing my work. Q. Did you try to d^o your work? A. Yes^ sin; I didn't want to have no trouble in that; I couldn't get ailong in tbiajt Q. Weiren't you, wMle about your work, pretty misohdevoue in distujrbing the other men and aneating dasltnTbamceis in the shops? A. No(, sio". Q. WhUe you were chained in the solitai'y what wasi your food? A. Bread and water for a oouple of daye^ andl then he gaive me two meals a day. Q. While you were in there didn't the keepers, from time to time, come to siee you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't they tell you, hex^e, if you only dio your work you oan be (released from here? A. Yesi, sir; thiey told me >tihait loitB of tilmieB. 663 Q. Why didn't yb-u tdl itltiteimi yoiu woiuldl dloi it? A. It was pfnetty hard to do; I oouldn't do thiem. 135 flajt irotois a day, going over sdx -whieielsi. Q. You had to polisih. the faqe of the flat iron, agiajiiait an emeiry wheel? A. Yes; you had to go oyer five or sdx wheels with them, grind them down, and emooitlh them om the edideis^ and grind thean on the sides, and shine tihem, and take 'anotiheri wheel to make them ismorther. Q. When the kieeipers promi'sed you they would ineleasie you from the isolitairy if you would perform your task, you couldn't promise for the reason you could not perfoirm it? A. Yeei, sir. Q. How many couldl you polish in a day? A. Abouit a hun- dred of ithem; I couldn't get no further than that; I would geit up to a hundred. Q. Don't you know that otthers in the siamie shop, engaged in the isiaoiie work, pdlishi,ng the siame size of smooitlhiLng ironisi, couW. poiEsh the number that was fixed 'aisi youir task? A. Yes, sir, there was lots of them done it there. Q. Why couldn^t you do it? A. I dion't know. Q. What were you employed at before you went to the reforma- tlory? A. I never worked' outride; I wasi too young. Q. What had you been working at in the reformatory before you were set to polishing the smoothing-irons? A. In the umbrella-shop, and I was working iu the britek-laying clajssi; I went in there flrat, when I went there. ' Q. WhaJt were you looked up in the screen-cell for? A. For not doing my work. Q. The same thing? A. Yes, sir. ; Q. When you were transferred to this prison were you then, and had been for isOme time, locked up in the screen-cedl? A. No, sir; I was in one right there, and then' he took me down and gave me a bath and put me in for draft. Q. Were you ever in the seclusion more than once, or in the solitary? A. No, sir; I was in there once. Q. During the entire two week's you say you were kept in tlhat one position? A. Yes, sir. Q. How could you eat? A. Lay there and eat; couldn^t get up any other way. , By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Were you chained tlo the floor? A. Yes, sir; tol the ring in the floor. / > Q. Were you not chained to the sliding ring? A. No, sir. ^ Q. Were you not chained standing up? A. No, sir; I wa^ chauied laying down on the flololr. 664 By Judge Qdltferti: ' Q. Were your fe^ib ohained? A. No, eiir; only chained; by the wrist. , ' Q. Who chained you, what ofl&cer? A. Mr. McLaughlin. Q. What officei's attended to you? A. Mr. McLaughlin. Q. He all the while? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did Brockway call to see you during the entire time? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see any, of the keepers except McLaughllu? A. No, sfir. Q. Or any of the officers? A. No, sir. Q. Did you have a bucket that sat near you that you coidd use?, A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have a bed? A. Yes, sir. Q. And blankets? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^Miich tier of cells were you' in; the one thaiti was the tien facing Ihe windows, oi" the tier in the rear? A. In the rear, not facing the windows. Q. Did you ha.ve any light there? A. Noi, sir; there was no light. Q. Could you read? A. No, sir, , Q. Have any books to read? A. No, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q Do you slay, none of the officers of the reformatory visited you except McLaughlin? A. Thait is the only one. Q. The doctor did not visit you? A. No', sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You say the only reason why you were placed^ in that cell for that length of time was because you failed tlo perform your regular task? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. You could have been releasied any time that you wofuld agree to do your task? A. Yes, sir. Q. Hoiw did you ilnally get out? A. I gave in t|o it and tried to do better. Q. Did you afterwards succeed in dbing your task? A. No, sir. Q. Did you do the best you could? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the number of irons you were able to polish aftjer you came out? A. I could only get up to a hundred all the way through, as long as I was in that shop. Q. Then what work did you do? A. I went out on the new extension they were building. Q. Working at mason work? A. Carrying the hod. 663 Q. Were you ever confined in eiiJier a gcreen cell or a soliibary for any other offense or for any otter reason than failing to perform yomr task? A. No, sir; tihiat is all that botihejied me. Q. Did you jSiend for the doctor, or did you ask to see him? A. No, sdr. Q. Did he ever come around through that pant of the prison so far as you know, to eee what the condition of the prisonems was? A. I never see hion come around. Q. During that two: weebs^ do you know of hisi being around in that part of the prison? A. No, sir. Q. Were oithen prisomeip confined in the other solitaries during the time you were cooafimed iu the onei you were confined in? A. Yes; two toeisddee mie. Q. Oan you name them? A. No, isir; I couldn't na,me them now. Q. Do you know how lomg they were there? A. No, ear. Q. Were they there when- you were first copfined tu your celi? A. Yee; they were there two days before I weat in itiere they told me^ ' Q. Were they there, when you were taken out? A, Y^esi, sir; they came out with me. Q. Were they confined there 'during the entire time you were there? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know whether they were ehadned or not? A. I couldn't tell whether they were chained or not. Q. Do you know how they were fed? A. No', sir; I don't know how they were fed. Q. When you had your regular rations weren't you unchained? A. No, sir. Q. You still insist you were not unchained or let up during the entire timei, two weeks? A. No, sir. Q. Was it two' weeks? A. Yes^ sir; it was two weeksi Q. Just two weeks? A. Just two weeks I was in there. Q. You were rather on the lookout for a little sport all the while weren't you? A. Yes, sir. John W. King, being duly sworn, testified: Uxiamined by Judge Gilbert: The chaiiinan made the same statement to this witness as to the former witnesses. Q. Have you been confined in the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you sent from? A. From Newburgh. Q. Whait for? A. Burglary, third degree. 84 Q. Did yoiu plead girilty? A. I did. Q. And was sent to the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wlhart; is your age? A. Twenty-four. Q. When were you eeiit to the reformatory? A. Eighteen hun- dred and ninety-two, February elevenitlh. Q. When were you transferred to this pirison? A. March 3, 1893. Q. Do you know why you were transferred here? A. No, siir. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any crime before you were convicted of the crime for which you were sent to Elmira? A. Disorderly conduct and cruelty to animalsi; fighting game cocks, roosters. Q. How many different times ha^^e you been in janl' befoire you wei'e confined in Elmira reformatory? A. Twice. Q. WTiere were you confined? A. Kingsiton, Ulster county. Q. In the jaU, at Kingsiton? A. Until I settled for the dis- orderly conduct. Q. Was ipent. there for disorderly conduot? A. Yes', Sir. Q. C!onflned how long a time? A. Three nights. Q. Them where did you go? A. I wiemt up to Albany for three or four months. Q. You were put in jail in Kingeton to wait for trial? A. Yes^ sir. Q. You were tried and found guilty of dieotrderly conduct]? A. Yce, sir. Q. And sent to the penitentiary? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the disloi'derly conduot? A. Fighting roosters. Q. Hadn't^ you been in jail in Newbnrgh for 'dtunkenness? A. No, sir. Q. Never been in jail any other time, except what you have stated? A. Twice. Q. Were yoiu once in the house of refuge in New York? A. Yes, sir. Q. What for? A. I don't remember what it was for; it is a good while ago. Q. Waisn''fl it for stealtag? A. No, sir; I believe it wasn't. Q. Larceny, grand larceny? A. No, sir. Q. Don't you know what it was for? A. It is iilmost nine or ten years ago. Q. How old were you at that time? A. Must have been going on 12 or 13 years. Q. You don't know what you were sent to the houisie of refuge for? A. It wasn't for stealing anything; my companions had secreted things in a shed belonging to my father; my father helped send me to the refuge. 667 Q. You and, ofthers were accused, at leaett, of isieo'eting stolen liropcirty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your fa/tter ajad otHiers cauisied you to be sent to the house of refuge? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you there? A. 1 was theiie about between eleven and thipteemi monthis. Q. While you were in the reformatory were you punished there? A. Twicej Q. Twice in the bat^-room? A. Yesi, sir. Q. What were you punished for the ftret time? A. Once , demeanor; it was gettimg a report for missing a step in the mili- tary ranfcsi; I gotl a report and the report run over a dollar's worth; when you gelt over al diollarl you are punished. Q. The varijous reports; mjaide agaimst you, , taken together, amoiunted to what you tlerni a dtollar's wotrtih? A. Yes, islir. Q. Then you were taken to the bath-room.? A. Yes, sir. Q. How were you punished there? A. There is a window as you go in, that you put your hands again^, anid Piineipal Keeper Halpin, sitamds to your right, and you are siupposed to look him in the eyes while Mr. Brookway hits you wiitih a strap. Q. On your bare back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he strike you anywhere else except upon the back? A. Struck me two blows here (indicating). Q. Across you back? A. Through here, and one there and one here (indicating). Q. One across your shotilder, one across you hip or thigh, and the other two across your bottom? A. Yes, sir; the small of the back. Q. Did he strike yoto any^hiere else? A. Not iihat time; no, sir. Q. Did you cry or beg? A. No, isiir; I didn/t do no begging, I hollered. Q. What were you punished for the second time? A. The teacher in school asiced me to write a sentence on my ^slate. Q. Was it not obeying the rules of the sdhooil? A. This time I wasn't hardly responsible for it; I wasn't able to write the sentence thajtl he required of me; it was an interrogative islentence he wanted clianged, or someifihing, and he asked mie didi I have it down, and I told him yes, sir; and ha calledl for, the slate and it was an exclamatoay sentence in its place; so he tlooik my slate and I got a three mark i-eporit that time; it would count three dollars, and the next day Mr. Brockway fettehed me to( the bath- room; that day I didn't get hilt with the strap; I got kicked in the knee and Halpin hilt me at the same time. Q. Who kicked you on the knee? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. Kick you only once? A. Yesi, sir. 668 Q. Wliart; did Halpin do? A. He hit me with his hand here. Q. Struck you asidie the head ? A. Ye8, sir. Q. TMietreaibouts in the hath-room were you when you were kicked by Mr. Brookway? A. Ajs you go in there is a heater to your left, and he had the reports on there tO' the heater, aaid he stood a little to that side; Mr. Halpin stooidi to my right, and he asked me what kind of monkeiv work I was dodmg in tihe school? I sayia, "Mr. Broekway, will you let me sipeak a few words?" Then Halpin hit me and I stagigervd and fell, and Mr. Brookway hit me a kick and said, " Get out of here;" he didn't Mt me with no strap. Q. Is that all thart occurred between you; ail that you isiaid; did you say to Bnockway, "Let me esplain a little?" A. Yes, sir; that is 'all that was said between us. Q. Then Halpin -stiaick you? A. He struck me here with hia list. Q. Wha;t effect did that hare upon you ? A. It knocked me up against the heatiei- so I kind of fell down, and Mr. Brockway kicked me. Q. Before anything of that kind occurired, hadn't they told you to step up to the window? A. No, sir; they had not, because I asked him to speak; I wanted to explain a:bout this sentepoice part of it ; I thought may be, if I explained atoout the sentence part of it he might not lick me; I knowed what I was going down there for, that 1 couldn't help it. Q. Was there! any nuirk or sioar made upon you, either upon your head from the blow you received from Halpdm or upon your body, or lump from the kick you receiTed from Brookway. A. The kick I received from^ Mr. Brockway swelled my knee u!p so I couldn't walk very good in the ranks; I had to walk at the tail of the line in the morning for sixteen or seventeen days. Q. Is there any scar upon your knee? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you limp when you went out of the bath-iroom? A. It didn't hurt so Aery bad for four or flvie days. Q. Did it cut tilie skin? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did your linib bleed? A. A little; came kind of a little sore; festered, 'and I picked that off and then it bled. Q. Have you thie sear upon yonlr kineie noiw? A. Ytes, sir. Q. Show the •.■Jca.r? (Witney exhilbits his knee.) Q. What scar is that above? A. I fell at the same timei I was kicked. Q. Did you hare those scars there before you, went toi the refor- matory? A. No, sir; indeed I didn't. Q. You got all those scars at the reformatory? A. Yes, ^. Q. When did you have a bath last? A. Eveiy two weeks. ■ Q. The last time you were in ihe biatli-iioom yoiu were not pad- dled? A. NOj sir. Q. Do you rememlber th.e date of the other time? A. A year last August, soimewhenes between the twelfth and twentieth; I couldn't say what date it -wap. Q. Between the 12th ajid.20th of AugnSt, 1892, you got pad- dled? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Do you remember the day of the week? A. No, sir; I do not. , ;, ; ■ Q.^ Wlio was preisent wheta you were paddled? A. Mr. Brock- way was the man that paddled me himself; the principal keeper,, Halpin was standing to my riight, and I had to put my hands against the window aud turn my head and look him in the face. Q. Nobody elise but Brockway and Halpin? A. Mr. Murphy and Mr. Sample was there too. Q. Thipire were foui* present? A. Three, Mr. Murphy was on the outside of the door; I isupposed he was, because he took me frottn the cell tbi thJe doioir and istiotod there when it wais shut. Q. On what pairt of your knee are these scares that you frefer to? A. On the cap. , 'Q. What was thie eiffect upon 'tlhle knee? A. Iti fe swielled around hiere(in'ddJoaffSiiig), anid kind of Wuilsh. Judge Gilbert. — Dr. Wey, will you examltne tihie kniee and tell us what you find with; reflerenoe to there being aoans and where- labouts on the limb i&my atne? Mr. liohfleld. — You find somie isloaira there? Dr. Wey. — ^ Yes, sir; one is about half an inch in length' and the other is oblong, above, 'Over the left knee cap, more repineseDrtifflg an aibnaision than a cut. Q. Do you still say that at the time you went to the refioirania- tory that you didn't have isaansl upon your knee? A. Thait is whaft I swore to. • Q. Did you injure y&w knee in some oitilier way, from' wihich you Tieoeived those scars? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you say, w'hUie giving your evidencie a moment ago, in referring to the upper scar, that wias caused by a fall? A. By a kick at the same time I said; at the same time I was kicked; it was included in the kick, because I duopped on my knee beside the heater. Q. What did you sitrike your knee against to cult it or bruise it in that way? A. I wais kicked; I didn't strike against any- thing ibecause I came on to the floor. Q. Were you kicked more than once? A. No, sir; only once. Q. IJow could orae kick make two" isicairs? A. It is tbierei and I was kicfc^ and there were two cuts tliere. 670 Br Mr. LitoMeld : Q. Did they bleed at the tjanle of the aooidea't? K. A little, yea, sir; feeltOTed up and gat Miusih; I didn't walk in the line for stxteen or eighteen' da(ys; it was swelled and yom couldn't get along limiping in the line, beaajiise yon haive to keep the step. Q. When you say you fell by the side of the 'hieajteri what do you mean by that? A. I mean when I got; thie kick it pained so much I ihad to drop on my kneeei; knocked my legs from under me, Q. What did you strike on? A. On the floor, right beside the heater. Q. A radiator? A. Yesi, sir. Q. When Mr. Brookwiay kicked you were you facing likn? A. Yes), isilr. Q. WMich way did yoai fiali when he kicked you, did yioiu fall forward? A. Yesi, sir; Mud of forwaid; about forty diegireesi. Q. You sa\- yon struck your Icnee upon the floor ? A. Yes, sii'. Q. Y^ou fell clear down ? A. Yes, sir; fell down on. my knees. Q. Who helped you up? A. You had to help yourself up; pretty quick too, sometimes. Q. Anything furtlher you wish to state in reference to that transaction? A. Yes, sir; I was put into the red suit because I failed in my lessons at school; I failed in. my arithmetic; tbat was all; oitlherwise I made a perfect record, and in my ari.thmetio I only failed three or four per cent; I was required to get seventy- five and I didn't get it, and that was July, 1892, and I was: put into tihe red siult. ; Q. You didn/t receive any other punishment than what you have stated? A. No, sir; no whippings or anything; that red suit was near as bad; you wouldn'tl get no coffee or tea to eat with your breakfast or at night. Q. What is your weighjt? A. I weighed 133 pounds two weeks ago. Q. What was your weight at the time you received thia injury? A. I couldtfli tell thatj Q. Your height? A. Five feet four and a quarter, I believe. Q. Do you stUl insisti you were not resisting the officers upon that occasion that you refer to? A. Yes, sir; I did not resist the officers; I wanted to speak to Mr. Brockway about that report I got in school. Adjourned to Saturday, November 11, 1893, 671 ATibtirw, Satmrdlay, ISToivemlber 11, 1893, 8.30 a. m. Rev. William Searles, belmg duly sworn, testtMed: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. Auburn. Q. What is your pfofession? , A. Clergyman. Q. Have you acted as chaplain of -the Auburn State prison? A. Yes, sir. Q. For tuorw lonig a, peiriW? A. Overt flftaeni yeatrei. Q. While acting in thaib capacity haA^e you frequently been brought into personal communication with the inmaJtle^? A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. Have you, at dlfferemt times, seen the imnateis that have been transferred flPom the Elmira reformatory to this prison? A. I miilghit in paa'entll'esisi siay aisi so'om aisi amy pirSkjateiri comies! Hiey paiss to three oflftces, first the front office, then tihe medical office, , then the chaplain's. Q. So far as your depairtlment is concernied, what record do you usually make? A. Our reopnd is age, plaoe of birth,' occupa- tion, whether you have been in prison before or not,' family rela- tions, temperate habiits; I used toi take three titnes the time of examining them, so far as their education was oanc^eimed, as they would in the front office; a man would oomie inj anid they would say temperate or intemperate, and they would p'U)t it down modier- ate; I used to follow that out; we made no record of those items only temperate or intemperate. ' Q. Did you, at any time, examine the persons tkJ see what ma^ks, if any, they had? A. We made na,i;eco!rd of that unless the mark was visible; some exposed their person to' me; two or three have. Q. Yoiu may state the first case to which yoiur attention was pai-tioularly chilled that yoiu now recoiLleot? A. A man came in halting as he was steppinig. Q. Can you give the nam,e? A. I can noit; I can only remem- ber one single name, but no* in this line, that came from Elmira; thati is, because he denied here. , IVIr. Stamohfleld.— That is over our objection, unless the name ia given. / , Q. Do you remember about the time? A. No', sir; they were coming in transfers for years, anid making noi record of it; I could not tell. Q. Abk>ut how long ago was it? A. I can only fix that by eompanative — when Dr. Condon was physician hei-e. ■ Q. About what year was that? A. I can not fix the date; I ihave nothing by which to measure it, only I know Dr. Oongdon was phyeiciain. 672 Ml". Stiandhfleld. — I object to ihils comvepsiation and excelpition. The iwitness. — I said, " Wihat is t!h.e iaatter " — Air. StancMeld. — I object to his conversation with him. Q. Just stat'd what tou saw? A. He turned with an ajwlogy accusing the Elmira reformatory — : Mr. Stanchfleld. — I ask to strike thajt out. j, The witness. — -He turned aibout and dropped his pants and lifted hie shirt, and his whole body was laceiuted in the most feai-ful ma.nneir, and he isadd it was tA\o days 'before he was transferred Mr. .Sitanchfield. — I ask to stiike that out. Judge' flilbert. — Strike out Avhat he said. Q. You may state how long it was after he came to this prison before you saw him? A. It was only pei"ha,p]Si the next day; we caU them right up. Q. Wa.s he one of the number that had been translerred from the reformatm-y to this prison? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do yoxi know aibmit how many were trausf erred at that time? A. No, sir; I couldn^t fix that; they used to come in squads of twenty, thirty and fifty. Q. You are quite po^itiv*- it is within a day or so after they were bi'ought here? A. Yes, sii'. Q. Did you isee them when they were brought into the prison? A. \'es, sir. Q. Were they in chains? A. Here at the hall. Q. Did you see them as they were brought into the prison? A. ^^o, sir. Q. You can't recollect this pi-isoner's nam;e? A. No, sir; I reme^mtj^f f>nly one single name, and that was from the fact of his falling downstairs, not from any whipping or anything oif the kind, Q. Oan you give about the number of years ago that was; give us your best recollection in reference to that? A. I would only have to guess; perhaps ten years ago; seven, eight, nine or ten years ago; somewhere,'? 'along in there. Q. Is that all you can recollect x>articula!rly in reference to that case? A. To that one case; yelSi sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Wben you saiw those wounds on the buttock of the pri'soner, did they appeiar to you of very recenit date? A. Yes, sir. Q. Bo recently the thing might have oiccurred in thi^ prison? A. Xo, sir; they were festering; it Avais very offensive; I didn't get over it in a week. .673 Q. Over wtat portion of Ms back? A. Across tiie top of hie Mps; the whole buttock; I should say twenty places aJbrasions of the skin festering'; still bloody some portions of the skin was. Q. Wilis he a. young man? A. I slhould say, approximating, 30. Q. Do yon know in what cell oir what pairt of the prdison hei-e he was confined? A. No, sir; I kept mo' record of that. Q. Can you state any fact or particular from wihioh his identity might be ascarrtained ? A. I don't think I could. Q. Do you know what officer brought him into your department? A. The officer didn't come in; we would send down a ticket for so many men to qome up and they , would bring them up to the hall. Q. Was there lanyone present at this examimation? A. No one only a prisom clerk. Q. Do you know who the prison clerk was ? A. He is a dead mam; William A. Sterne, one of the . brightest men that was ever in this prison J he was pardoned! by Governor Cleveland. Q. Do you think you could in any way identify the man by refe-rring to the record? A. No, 'sir; I made no. record of it. Q. You think you have fuUy' stated all the particulars relating to the identity of the man? A. Yes, sir; I don't think I could go fui"ther with any safety to myself. Q. You may refer to the next inistance to which yonr attenjtion was called in oonneotiom with which there was an appearance of bruises or injuries? A. I wouldn't be certain whether it was the same gang of men or not; there was another man not so severely mutilated as this man, but the circumstances were just about the same, only the lacerations were not as bad. Q. Lacerations uponi the same place? A. Yes, sir. , Q. The second one yon' refer to was in the same gang? A. I am not certain of that! Q. Do you remember his name? A. I can not remember; I only remember the name of one man. -Q. Was that a man that was in the same gang? A. No, isir; he was a man', that used to,b6 a clerk over there by the name of Hill; he was sent out of our hoigpital as feigning sickness, and the next morning fell downstairs. Q. You may state the facts relating to the next instance that you can recollect beyond the' two you first mentiomed? A. That is all; I declined to see others that offered! to show their persons. Q. Of that gang? A. No; other gangs, two or three; quite a number came here whUa I was here; I was here a long while. Q. In fact, during the entire time that you aotedj as chaplain, you only examined those two cases? A. That is all. 85 674 Q. Otibiens offered to show then- pereotis, but you refused to examine them? A. Yes, sir. , Q. You may state the particulars relating to this maji HUl? A. I caB only fix that date a& 'the time of Dr. Oongdion ; I- tMnk he had been a clerk iq some department in Elmira; a man of a good deal of ability, a Hebrew by religious faith; he got out a habeas coi-pus against Sir. Brocliway, and the cour't! decided the ground was well taken, but he could not sit on the eonstituu- tionality of the law; he came here and claimed to be sick, and was under treatment here for soone little time, and Dr. Oongdon finally practically di'ove Mm out of the hospital and says: " I turn htm over to the principal keeper; " the principal keeper is not here; he is dead; Major Boyle and Dr. Conigdom is dead; and coming down the stains I heard sometliiDig fall; then heard a gurgling as though water was runming down the stairs, and there was Hill fallen on the stairs and vomiting; and he was borne down to his cell and the next mdming was found dea|d in his cell. Q. How long was that after he was brought to the prieom? A. A few months. Mr. Stanchfield. — I ask to strike that out as far as the Elmira reformatory is concerned. i Q. I will ask a few more quesltions first; you say thite occurrence upon the stairs occurred several monrtihs after the prisoner was brought here; so far as his having been sick in the Elmira reformatory, you know nothing of that? A. No, sir. Q. Only whalt he claimed? A. That is all. Q. Do you know when he came here there was anything in his appearance that indicated' to yotu, as you Baw him, that he was sick? A. Several of us thought SO; I was one of them; he was pade; looked as though there was a failure of cdrculationi some- where. Q. Have you now stated all you can state in reference to that, particular case ? A. That is all. Judge Gilbert.; — I tMnk thjab evldlenicie should bie stiricikem out as far as the evidence shows ill treatment on the part of the Elmira Reformaitxwy. Q. Do you know whaft necoPd was sent frmo. tihle ireifoinniajfcoii^ ■tlo tine prison here relating toi IMsi niaiQ? A. I didn't see the record; I only know Dr. Oongdora told mie. Mr. Stanchfield. — I object to that.' A. I didn't see the retcotrd. Q. When prisoniers are tramsiferred from the Elmira Beformla- tony to this prison is i)t usiual for the officer at Elmira to siend vd.th thle prisoner a record? A. I am unable to answer that; none ever reaiched me; I know rumors usiedl to come am thouigh. they wiere. 675 Q. Isn't there sioimetUiig that aoootoipaiiieis the prisoner that ,giTeft aiuthiorijty td the officials here to confine him, in prison? A. ,1 poieisuime it Is a waiririaiut of ttramiatEeip; I knioiw niotthmg of tihlajt; thiaJt. Is lodged in thiei frotnit office. Q. Nor do you kniowi thJartJ there lare amy pajpensi or ajnyitMlng sent with the priso'ner indiioajtinig what Mi9 reioolrd wasi in the TOforanlattoiry or w!hat hiis comidatiiion was aisl to health? A. I saw a few thM thje groitmdiS of transfer, werie incomnigilble or ajboveage, but pmimicipaJly imcorrigilble; I saw some of those Imt I dldai't siee ■emyMing in reference to amy olthetr featburie of the caisie. By Mir. Litchfield : Q. Do I undensitand you thiisi priHO(ne!r that oamie froim Elmira , EefortnaJtblry that yoiu isiaw hijnl immediiately after hiis amriyal; and them hte a.ppeared toi We ouit of health? A. Yea, sir. Q. And toe was takem' inxmediately to the hbispital? A. He was not hlouised! in the hospittai, 'biut it waisi understood in the prilsiom; he was umflavotralbly reported. Q. UnfavoTalbly reporteid; wlhat dbl you meam? A. Thalt he was a fnaud; that We waisi playilng silck.* Q. Sotaife miomthis aftleir thiaiti he fell doiwn tlhetse istaSirsi amid was foiumdi diead the nexit mxHjnlinig? A. Ttoe niesit mloimiinig im his cell. , By Judge GUbfeirt : Q. Did you see him bet'weiemi tlhei tume he amrtived iamd thie tSkne hie fell? A. Yes, sSr. , ' Q. Holw frequemt? A. Neaa-ly every diay. Q. Wlhlerie wiais hie? A. I pwesnune toe walsl in wtoatt they ulsled to ciall the skate eihop; posisilbly the old tailoti stoop. Judge G-ilbert. — I can't sieie in* wWat way thlalt bleana upom the qu'eisitibii ais to whtettihier thiisi miami WiaH il-ttraaitedl oir niot. Mr. Litchfield. — I think it might be stricken out with safety. Q. Is t'here any other instance that you can call to mind where the prifiomer evidently toad been ill-treated? A. Ttoere was one ttoat was passing ttoe toall below, ttoe batto-room used to be below wtoere we are; the principal keeper'a deputy servamt, Oobum, tois name was, ttoe great pugilist of New York; I was passing and he says: " Ctoaplain, look here; " and I simply stepped' to the door, and the man' was just out of the bath-tub, and his laceratioms covered his back perhaps a doKeni places, buttock and back. Q. How high up? A. Clear up to tois shoulders. Q. Over the kidneys, as you understand it? A. Yes, sir; I should say so; it was isipotted like a ne^frwork, not large wounds, but quite a speckled back. ' Q. Do you know how long it was after they had been brought to ttoe prisom? A. Ttoat was ttoe freisto gang; ttoey were taking their btutto; I oami not give toilsi name. 676 Q. Can yoTi state wlieii' thait was? A. No, sir; I haven't the slighteist reooixi to fix the date. Q. Can yon tell about how many yeains ago it waa? A. I oonldn'li nnless I Ishooildi Bay ten) yeaiB ago; I have been |avi'ay tin^e years the last of nexit; month. • Q. Who succeeded: you as diaplain? A. Mr. Yates. Q. Mr. Yates is here now? A. Yes, sir. Q. "\Mien you speak of lacerations aU over his ba«k can you say from the appearance what caused thosie lacerations, or that appearance; may it not have been some disease, skin disease? A. I should hardly say so from their length; it was as though some strap or something or other had abrased' the skin. Q. Was the skin broken? A. Yes, sir. '; Q. Was it black and blue? A. Reddish. Q. Did they extend appajiently around and across the back or up and down the back? A. Crowways. Q. Do you recollect of any other instance? A. No, sir; I could not. Q. What, if anj-thing, did. you observe about there being bruises upon their faces? A. This one that I saw had a black eye here; he didn't say who struck him there. Q. Can you remember the name of that one? A. No, sir; I wouldn'it for the to^\n venture to give the name for I can not da it' Q. Was he one of the prisoners you have referred to? A. Y^, Q. Did you see any other bruises upon him except those upon his back and the eye? A. No, sir. Q. Do you recollect any other instance where you observed uiarks upon the face? A. No, sir; I can not recall it. Q. Is there any other fact that you can state with reference to the condition of the piisoners when they were brouigM here from Elmira indicating that they had been harshly treated? A. No, sir; I think not; only as I have said several showed a diflaculty of sitting down and wanted to show md land I wouldn't isee any more. Q. Did you ever have a communication with any of the Elmira reformatory ofifldals -n-ith reference to the prisoners or in refer- ence to their manner of disciplining? A. Only orally at a conveur tion in N«?iw York we had a little ^seance with Mr. Brockway. Q. What did he there state with reference toi his method of discipline? A. I was challenging the number reformed and stat- ing in the convention at New York, it was at the Fiftih avenue, tiiat the basis of his estimate of rieform was all false and without any foundation; that he discovered about eig'hteen per cent 677 retutmed to prisicm somewheire, and tberefore hB readied the con- clusion eighty-two or edighty-ithree per cent were refoirmed, and I said th'at same figure would woi-k well in all prisons; that he dumped in a hundred a year here, and yet we don't show more than about twenty-five peir cent returning to prison, therefore we will ^conclude iseventy-flv© in our ordinary piisons were refoirmed; " Well,'' I said, " You have means we do not have; you can elimi- nate the iaoorrigilble; you have thei parole sysitem; you have first offender under 20 years of age; " and I challenged the basis of reform, and then I isaid, " You hajve corporal punishment which I don't 'believe in^ and the State hasi aibolished it in every ia;^titu- tion but that; they have no businesis to inflict corporal punish- ment in this priison; they can shut a man up on bread and water but they can not aipply stripes and pains. Q. What, if amytbing, did he state in reference to his method of punishment? A. It is only a matter of memory; he believed in punishment and paddling, and it was talked over there; some indorsed it and some didn't; I rememlber of remarking this, that I didn't believe that one man's person should be exposed to another for lany purpose whatever except for medical treatment for that mian's good; I think it is the most humiliating thing in the world to strip a man bare in the presence of another unless it is a physiician. Q. What reply did Mr. Brockway make? A. He justified it because the severity of the ofiense demianded severe treatment, herodic treatment he called it, or something of that kind. Q. What, if anything, did you say to him then in reference to the appearance of- the convicts that had been tranisferred from Elmlra to the priision herei? A. I thiink I remiarked this, that thoise he sent away here as incorrigible were on a par with our average well-behaved prisoneir^, and', I think, that is true. Q. What, if anything, did you say toi him by way of describing the appearance of ^some of the prisoners 'that had been trans- feirred from Elmira to this place? A. I don't think I did that; I didn't become so personal as that; it was on general principles. Q. Thm was a discussion mainlj' between you and Mr. Brock- way? A. Hardly between me and Mr. Brockway, but we took part in it and his system of punishment was under consideration. Q. You advocated thei abolition of capital piunjishmeut while he advocated retaining it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that a meeting of the representatives of penology? A. Yesi, sir. > i ; Q. Was there a report made- of the proceedings? A. I think it was publisihed. Q. Do you know about what year that was ih? A. I am at a loss on that'; Mr. PiUsbUiy was superintendent. 678 Q. Was it h.el know I was in prison, my mother, sisters and friends. Q. Where does yoiu mother, siisiters and fi'iends live? A. They live in New York oitly, bu)t I don't want to teU any nearer. Q. When did yotu flrsit nefuse to give theiif plat» of residence? A. The first day when I arrived' there, about three houirs after I amived. 680 Q. What occTirped wh.en. jou' arrived th6re? A. I think it was about 11 o'clock I was taken and had my clotlieis changed, had my dinner; then about three hours after I arrived thiere I was taken before Mr. Brockway in Ms private office; I answered hic-i questions until he asked me where my people lived, and I toldi him. New York, ajid I wouldn't tell any nearer; he asked me a few more ques'tioois; he ordered I should be taken to the solitary confinement; to the dungeon; I was taken there by Mr. Sample, I think, and! chained by one hand to the floor; the dungeon wa^ perfectly dark, so dark I couldn't see my hand before my face, and I was only kept there until the next day, and taken again before Mr. Brockway for perhaps a half hour and sent me back. Q. When you were taken back the second time before Mr. Brockway did you still refuse? A. Yes, sir; but I did it in a respectful manner; everything I said was respectful, and I thought I had the right to refuse, and I did. Q. Did you tell him why? A. Yes, sir; I gave him the reasons. Q. Then what was done? A. I was seniti back; he says, I think ift was at that time, or else it was later, that " I coiuld take this out of you in abont five minutes if I wished; I will flog you within an inch of your life; " he sent me back and I was six days longer, seven days in ail, solitary and chains. Q. Chained how? A- By my left hand to a ring in the floor, nob the bar; that was there, but I wasn't chained toi that. Q. Wliiie ohlained in that manner could you stand up ? A. No, sir. Q. Was there a bed proivided for you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Blankets? A. I think so'; I didn't meed' the blanket, because it was very warm. Q. What food did you have while you were there? A- The first day I had bread and water only; after that I had a little hash in the mominig and molasses at night. Q. At the end of the week yoiu refer to, what then was done? A. I wa9 again brought before Mr. Brockway in his office; I was taken in another office on the other side, it wasn''ti his private office ; he asked me the rest ofl iihe questions, I answered what I could and refused the others. Q. Eefused what, the same ones? A. Questions about my people, and he saj^: "I will put you in a dark place, you won't live very long there; " and says: "What do you want done with your bones when you die?" that was all at that timie; he senli me to a screen-ceU and two weeks later, I am not positive whether two or one week, I guess it was only one week; he called me up on the floor tn the front office, the guard-room floor, and he asked me the questions over again, and 081 I made the remark in a vea*y respetetful mamier, but he seeimed to think! I hnplied somethdiiig; they tried very hard in Buffalo to find out where I lived, but they didn^t go to this extent, and I had oajiy gort out these woirdis when he raised his foot and , kicked mie in the face sol it nearly knocked me over; it hurt me conaidierable; oif coureie, there was no permanent injury; I made no remonstrance, said nothing, and he sent me back to the ecreen-cell. Q. Were you stamdinig up at, the time? A. No, sir,' I was sit- ting on the guard-room floor right in front of the office; all the clerks in the office must have seen it, and the guard at the cage " myst have seen it. Q. You say this was about two weeks after you arrived there ? A. Yes, sir; I had been in the screen cell a week, I think; I was sent to the screen cell again, that was the twenty nsecond of C)ctober I arrived there, and I was put in the screen cell the twenty -ninth, and I was kept there until January; they took me out once in a week or ten, days for a bath; the only other tinie I was out I went to have my pictiu'e talcen to the photograph gallery; 1 think that was the only tinie I was out of the screen cell; they wouldn't allow me anything to read or anything at all; in January I went before the board once; everybody else had a paper there once a week they printed; I asked severak times to have that, and they wouldn't allow me to have that; I was taken before the board of managers once and asked them to put me to work; Dr. Wey, I think it M'as, seemed to be the chairman; a man with a smooth face, and told me I would have to settle it all with Mr. Brockway; they couldn't do anything that day, nothing to do with it; I asked them if they couldn't put me to work, and if they couldn't to transfer me; it was getting terrible, being there alone; tliey said they couldn't transfer me; then I was put in another cell soon after that; that was before I was called up by Mr. Brock- way; he called me up to tell me he was goiijg to S6n,d a dra^t away about the first of January, and he would include me in the draft; he says at that time, I can't think exactly how he Siaid it, '■'I don't want to send you away; I will give you a few days to think about it; I have felt kindly toward you all the time; you only irritated me the other day; you are a young boy an,d I 'don't want to send you away;" I was put in another cell and chalked in the same as a screen cell, only it wasn't a screen cell; I was kept there until March, when I was sent away; he gave me one yellow report once because the keeper found a paper in my cell, a Summary in my cell, one of the dutymen had given me; that vras the only report I had of any kind; I wrote a note to Mr. Brockway once an.d asked him if he would allow me a book, or paper, or a 86 682 Bible; he replied, " I would be very glad to supply you with, every comfort and privilege supplied to tbe best men here whenever you axe willing to place yourself in my care for such cure and cultiva- tion of your criminis characberlstics as your admission to this reformatory intended you should receive; until you do that I will not take up the matter of making you more comfortable; I will have nothing to do with it at all; it remains entirely with your- self whether you are comfortable or uncomfortable here;" but he wouldn't allow me my Bible to read. By Mr. litchfleld: Q. Did you ask in your note to be allowed to read your Bible ? A. To have a Bible. Q. Did you get any answer to that note ? A. That was the answer I got; there was nothing said about the Bible in the answer. Q. Did he say anything about refusing to afford you any read- ing matter ? A. Any comfort or privilege is the way he expressed il-. Mr. Litchfield. — I think it ought to standi, then, if he asiked for the Bible ispecifically in the original note; if was included in the denial. Mr. Stanchfield. — I have no objection to his stating what was ia the note to ISIr. Brockway. By Judge Gilbert: Q. What was your food while you were in the screen cell and in the other cell ? A. The same all the time; there was a little hash in the morning and bread and water; and at 4 o'clock bread and molasses and water. Q. While you were chained in the solitary did the physician visit you ? A. No, sir ; he did not. Q. Did the physician vfeit yoiu while you were in the othetr cell? A. No, sir; I •was visited not by the physician but the atssistaiit came and vajccinated me once, two or three months after I was there, and once I stopped Dr. Wey aftei- I was taken out of the screen cell and asked him for some medicine for oataorh, but I nevei"got it. Q. Did he exajmine you toi see whethietr you needed it or not? A. Yes; he asked me some questioms and I amiswiered him; I had no f ajult to find with him. Q. Did he go into your cell? A. No, sir; not at that time; I had no fault to find with that. Q. Who sentenced you to the refoirmatory? A. Judlge Seaver of Buffalo. 688 Q, (PresemtiDJg same.) 'Did you write that letter to Judge Sea- \i;r? AA'eSj sir; tliat i^ my widliuy:. (Marked "J. M. R." for identificatiioii.) Q. You cam read that? Mir. Stauchfleld. — ThM is over my objection. •Judge Grilbert. — lu comneotion with whajt followed 'between Judge SeaYer and Mr. Brookway, on the stneaigtih of this letter a correspondence commjetnced and was caamed on between Judge Seayer amd Mr. Brockway. Mr. Stanctfield. — We wouldn't 'have any objection to it when Judge Seaver is upon the stand. Mr. litchfieid. — ^You wish, to prove a ceitlain latter? Judge Grilbert. — That we have proved; now, that the boy is upon the isitand and as it is in his handwriting I thought he could read it more neadily than anyone else. By Mr. litchifleld: ' ^ Q. Did you plead guilty to the charge on which, you were sent to the reformatory? A. The lawyer that took my case told me if I would plead gudty I would get a lower sentence and in the court I ®aid I didn't commit the act but I would take the sentence without a trilal. Q. Did you commit the .act you were ciharged with; wajs the charge true? A. Ann I obliged to answer that? By Judge GaJibart: I Q. It can't affect you in any way because you can't be pun- ished again for ithat ofiense? A. I have never said I committed the ofEensie, and I would rather not; I was charged with taking a watch and ring, valued at forty-one dodlars, from a hotel. ' Q. Wliere you were stopping? A. Yes, sir. Q. You refuised to mi^ whether you were guilty of the charge or nM? A. Yes, jsir; I oflfered to take the sentence without a triial, because the' lawyer reporesented to me I would get not over a isix-nionths' sentencia Q. Have you now given your true name? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Did you give your true name to Mr. Brockway at the refor- matory? A. Yee, sir. Q. Your name is, in fact, Frank L. Wallace? A. Yes, sir. Q. The only thing that you refuse toi di^sclose is the residence of your mother and sisters and so on? A. Yes^ sir. Q. You didn't refuse to disctose your true name? A. No, sir. Q. And never have? A. No, sir. Q. Did you refuse to diiscloise the facts relating to: your own history wtoem you were questioned at the reformatory? A. I €81 don't rememiber; he questioned me; he came to tih.e question, asked me where I liyed and I told him New York, the street and nmniber, and then I declined; I think it was the end. Q. Did you give him the time numiber? A- I didn't give him the number. Q. You knew while yooi were being confined in this solitary cell and the screen cell and the other cell, that any time you would give the resLdemce of your mother and sl;ster, that you would have the liberty or some of the libepties thait other priisoners had? A. Yes, sir; I did; this is, I suippose so. Q. You claim it was out of regard for their feelings that you refused to state their residence ? A. Yes, sir; it is. Q. That was the o'nly reason ? A. The only reason. Q. Haven't you ever communicated with her ? A. No, sir. Q. As you understand it, is sihe ignorant of the fact you are h€l'e ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you know before you were transferred to this prison what the maximum amount of the penalty was for your offence ? A Not positively — 1 heard from other convicts it was five years, but I didn't know; Mr. Brockway gave me to understand it was five yeajs. > Q. You say the only reason, so far as you know, why you have been transferred from the Ehnira reformatory to this prison is because you have refused, out of reg£|ird for the feelings of your mother and sistera, to state their place of residence ? A. Yes, sir; that is the only reason; I think Mr'. Brockway admitted that himself. I Q. Didn't you have conversation with Mr. Hoppe with referenct to your imprisonment and with reference to your refusing to givt the place of residence of your mother and sisters ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't he state to you it couldn't make any difference, for the reason that a statement of your offense and your name and all would appear in the papers, and your mother and silsiteips would see that, and that they would know from the name tihat was given that you were in prison? A. Yew, sir. Q. Didn't you, in reply to that, say, " No," they wouldn't know, for the reason you hadn't given your right name ? A. I did not; I never have said so; I know in the Buffalo News it reported an interview I had with a reporter or some one connected with it tliat I said I was under an assumed name, but I never siaid so; the reporter said, "I wiU not ask you what your right name is," but I 'didn't say anything; at no time did I say I was under an assumed name, because I am not. Q. Did yon escape, or ait^tieiniipit to escape, 'from ihe Buffalo jail? A, No, sir; but from the police court. 685 Q. Was that after you were arrested for this offense ? A. Yes, sir. (The witness read the letter.) By Mr. Litchfield: . Q. You say you were sent to a dark cell when you first arrived there; was that one of the reception cells ? A. They call them solitary cells. Q. What shape was it, square ? A. In the farthest part of the prison, about the level of the ground or below; there were probably eight cells, four on each side; there were two windows on the outside wall that were open untU I was put id. the cell, and I was chained down, when an officer closed them; the only other time they were open is when the. officer came down with food. Q. When you returned to those same cells were they light ? A. I was out perhaps a half hour. Q. You wei*e returned to the same cell ? A. The same cell; while the officer was there he open.ed the window and took me in there and cloised them when he went out. , Q. How long did you remain there ? A. Seven days and seven nights. Q. During that time were not those windows open at all ? A. Only when the officer would bring my food in the morning and ' afternoon; about as dark as it was possible to be. By Judige Griibeirt : Q. Did Mr. B'rockwiay visit you whMie you were confined in tihe eel? A. No, siir; he did no*. Q. This cell you were confined in you iSay tihieire was a rding in the colmuer? A. Yeg, -siir; m the flototr. Q. Was tihe cell a three-cioimer cell? A. Yes, sir. Joseph V. Seaiver, bieinig duly swrom, tesibifijed : Examihed by Judige G-ilbeirt;: Q. Where do you residle? A. BuflialO. Q. Whait ilsi yoiur iprofesMtom? A. Lawyer and county judge of Etrle coomrtiy. 1 Q. How long, have you been county judge of that county? A. The laisit of the foiumth yeiar. _ Q. You aire still engaged in the practice of yoiur profesisiooa? A. I doii''t praicitiice at all; we are enititled to praotice but there .is too much biuisanesis for us to attend to. Q. Do you remembier a pTisoiiier by the name of Frank L. Wal- laide was sentenced by you as ooun:ty judge of Eciie county? A. Yeis, isir; I recollect it. Q. Do you reooillect whetlier lie plead guilty or not to the ofleoioe he waa chajiigied with.? A. That is as I recolleot it; tlbere wase't any trial. Q. You sentenced him to the ElmiiiaElefoiriinartloiriy? A. Yeei,isdr. Q. Have you oaraesponded with Mr. Brockway, the superin- tendenit ol the Elmira Re&HranatcKry, with TefereiDce to his oaBe? A. Yes; upon receipt of tMs Idtter I sent a copy of this, Wallacei'a lertftter to Mr. Birockway with a iPequeslt that I would like to hjear from hiilmi . Judge Gilbert. — ^I offer that. Q. Did yofu receive a letter from Mf. Brockway in neply to that? A. Yes, sir. Q. (Preisienting same.) Is that the letter? A. Yea, sir. Q. Is tMs an inclosuiie in the letter? A. Yes. Q. Please read it? (Witness read the same..) Judge Gilbert. — We offer first the letter written by the prdlsiODiea", Wallace, to Judge Seaver and them we offemia evidence t!he letter -RTiltten by Judge Seaver to Mr. Brockway amd his reply. The following are copies of the isamie. Starte Prisonj Auburn, N. Y., March 26. Judge Seaver: Dear Sir. — I was sentenced by you on October twentieth last to the Elmira reformatory, on a charge of larceny of property valued at forty-one dollars by the grand jury. I waiS induced by Mr. John J. Colgan, a lawyer, to accept a sentence without a trial on the aasurance that my sentence would not be greater than six months imjffisonment in the penitentiary while, if I put the county to the expense of a trial, I might receive a year. Mr. William Colgan, a brother of John J., had come to the jail two' or thi'ee da.A^ after my arrest, called me to the cage and offered to doi what he could for me. I gave him only six dollarsi, as I had but seven dollars, and was very foolish to expect any help for so small a sum, but he talked so well and expressed what seemed to me real sympathy for me, that I actually trusted him, intending to pay him as soon as I should be released. I afterwards found out that he was a personal friend of Police Captain Eeagan, who seemed to be .trying very hard to get me a long sentence. I then, when too late, realized how badly fooled I had been; I declined to give my address when: in Buffalo, wish- ing to shield my people from disgrace, and as I already had had too mucih cheap notoriety, I was the more ready to forego the publicity of a trial; instead' of a six months sentence I was sent to Elinira. I never before heard of an " indetermiaate sentence," 687 but -wiieiiii I found out what it was, T resiolved' to try my lon'e] best and get out in a year. The first day that I was there, Mr. Broc.kway, the superintendent, called me to his office and, among other qnestions, asked me my address, I declined to give it, as I had in Buffalo. He thens had me put in a dungeon, chained lo' the floor, where I remained seven days. He called me up then, -and ais I did no* tell him I was placed in siolitary confinement on short rations for over four months, or' till March third, when I was taken to Auburn'. I certainly had a moral right to decline giving my address, and I believe I also have a legal right. Mr. Brockway intimated that my sentence was five yeansi, but 'I have noli been able to find - him that the purpose of our insistance that he should give us information about himself was only that we might be able to ascertain about him and find why a young man of his intelligence should fall into xrime, and thus get at the cause of his criminous conduct and cure it, assuring htm that the information we desired would not be communicated, and without it we could do nothing foi him. He stiU refused to give the information, and was returned to his room on the corridor. On the eighteenth of November, at the meeting of the board of niiinageis, I called their attention especially to thisi case, and to the then situation of Wallace. On the twenty-sixth of January, this year, Wallace appeared before the board of managers him- self. At that meeting he asked to be sent to State prison, which A^-as refused; he also asked to be put to work on his own basiis, which was refused. At the January transfer of the surplus inmates I seriously con- sidered including him in the gang, but it seemed on thfe day before the transfer a little softened, and I deferred it. Continu- ing in his obduracy, and we being really unable to undertake any particular improvement of this man without the full information desined, we did, in March, include him with a company of fifty who were transferred from the reformatory, mainly, tO' make room for others more susceptible, but, particularly, because they are the least promising of our inmates. Wallace is not sentenced to the State prison, actually or practically, for the full period of his maximum term, but may be returned, at aoay time, under the standing rqaoiution of the board of managers, copy of which I aittach. I am, my dear sir, very respectfully and siinoelrely yours. Z. R^ BEOOKWA.T, Oeneral Sv^ervntendmir." To Hon. Joseph V. Seavee, Buflfalo, iN". Y. " Resolved, That whenevefP, at any timie not lesis than sfix mouiths before the expiration of his masimum term, the agent and warden of any State prisou to which immateB from, the nefor- matory are tramsterred, shall cesPtiify ita wiiiting that amy thmiate so transferred (not havitaig previously aittemptted to esicape) Ihais shown improvem^emt warranting the opinion; that if released such released imnates will live at liberty wi'tihotut violatrnig the law, then the general superintendent shall return isuA iamajate to the reformatory, as pro.vided by law, and at the flnsit managers' 'meet- ing theireafter bring :said inmate before the managers for exami- natibn 'and action- asi to his release." Resolution of board of managers of New York State Refoaranla- tory, June 12, 1892. ' ,Q. When you sientenced yoiung Wallaioe to the Ehnimi reforma- tory, did you miake any istatement to him Tvith reference toi the t/erm of his imprisonment or the length of time he would proibably be confined to the reformatory, providing he oteerved or obeyed the rules and regulations of the reformatory? A. jSTo', silr. Q. Do you 'Call to mind thel circumjsrtances which were disclosed at the time he was arradigned with reference toi his offense, so that you will be able now to say or judge what length of time you would proibalbly have confined him in prison if you had sen- tenced hilm to a prison or pelnitentiary? Mr. StancOifield. — That is over our objection; that is: iinpro|)ieir and incompetent evidence. The witness. — I had no notion of sending him anywhere else except to thel refoTmatory; I thought he wais a proper subject for the Elmira reformatory, eamiing his time, as I understood it, in a 87 690 yeair and six montlis, getting oiut witli proper toehavior, was tihie proper punishment for 'hitn. Q. From tlie prisoner's age, Ms appajrent intelligence^ etc.? A. And Ms crime. t Q. In yonr judgment, you thonght the nefonmatoiry was the proper place for him? A. Yes; the proper place; aifter I receiwd tMs letter from ]\Ir. Brockway I called im the district aittoimey, Mr. Quiniby, and delivered over to him the comm'Uniteationa Mr. Stanchfleld. — That I objeict to as incompetent and improper to what instructions he ga,ve to the district attorney or what he- said to him in the absence of any representativesi of the institution. The witness. — I delivered' them oveir to the district attorney oif our county; since then I have taken no step in the matter whait- ever, except when called upon by subpoienai toi appear here. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. If the prisoner had plead guiltj^ and you had not a refonruar toiy to send him to, how long a sentence would you hawei given him out of five year.'.;; would yon have given him the whole term? A. Oh, not at all ; I would have sent him so he would have gotten out of the worMiouse, the Erie county pemitentilary, aibout the middle of the next summer ; about a yeair's sentence. Q. In your judgment, from the testimony, you think ai yeair's sentence was sufQcient? A. If I sent Mm to the peni- tentiaaT; I thought from his appearance itAVasn't the pirioper place to send him, the proper place was the refortaatory; it would be better for Mm to be sent there, even if he had to stay; as I under" stand its it takes a year and six months to get out of the reforma'- tary on proper behavior. Q. Have you sent other prisoners to the reformatory? A. Up to this case of Wallace's' we have sent a great many; we thoughlj a great deal of the institution before, the district attorney and myself; since then we have' not. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I ask to strike that out. Q. You say, from the best of your recollection, as to the major- ity of those oases you sent to the refownatory, whether you would have sent them for a full term or fractional term, if you had no reformatory? A. I would not have senit them for the full term, youthful convicts. Q. In this case you would have sent the man for one year? A., Frma the appearance and character of this young man, and the crime. By Mr. Stanchfleld: Q. You never give anybody a maximum unless' it iis upon a, second or third offense, or an habitual criminal ? A. We try not to< 691 James Boyd, beimg duly sworn, testified aa follows: Examined l^ Judge G-ilbert': The ciiaairman made the same statement to this witnjesis as to the foirmer witnesses. Q; Were yodi ever confined in the Elmira. refownatoTy? A< Yes; for three years and! six months. ^ Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York city. Q. For what offense? A. For attempt at forgery in the second de^ee. -Q. While s,i the reformatory were you ever reduced to the red- fiiuit graide? A. Yes, 'Sir; I was fifteen' months in- the refo[rma.tory, and I earned my paiole and wais paroled, and kept there as am ofifloer, and after being kept there five months as an officer I was reduced to the convict grade for lending another ofl&cer cups and saucers without ^perintendent Brockway's permission; all my clothes were coaifiscated; all my money was kept from me; with- out any hearing I was reduced to the convict grade, and had to gd through the same roll again, the black and blue sniit, and earned a second parole; this has been uniju^ly taken' from me again; I have been reducedl to the red suit without a hearing of any .kind or pretence of a trial, and locked up on very gross charges, and kept locked up for six days, and didn^t see anyone until Mr. Hoppe and the late superintendent of the reformatory came to the door and said: "Do you want to see me, Boyd?" I says: "Certainly I do; what am I locked up for?" the superin- tendent turned to Mr Hoppe and says: "Tell Mm;" Mr. Hoppe then read from some copy he had in his hand a lot of charges. Q. Before going any further you may go back and commence and give a statement of those mattera relating to your first redux> tion to the lowest grade; you say that was because you had loaned to aii^ officer some cups and saucers without the permission of the superintendent? A. Yes, sir. Q. Up to that time what had your record been? A. First clasis; there wasn't better in the reformatory. , Q. Had you received any marks for violating any of the rules of the reformatory, as far as youi knoV? A. ISTo, sir; I didi not; I made up m^ mind when I see the way of things in the reforma- tory, to cater to Mr. Brockway'igl whims; that is the only way yom can possibly get along. i Q. Down to that time your record was perfect, as you under- stand it? A. Yes, 'SirJ Q. Who was the officer to M'hom you loaned those cups and saucers? A. A paroled officer, with two years good standing, a* married man, that lived outside of the, reformatory, as the privi- lege of going ouit like' &i citilzen and Mr. Wilnintle hfitbed botih iM» 692 affl'cer and myself Mtrtwrly and I was caUedi on the guiaird-nooini floor Q. GriTe the offloeri's nOimie to -whioim, yoiu loamied tihiose saiicens and cups? A. WiUiam HogianL Q. Do j'O'U know whiere lie is now? A. Yelsl, sin; he is Dan- niemioiPa Staite pimisioini. Q. How many cupsi and siaucefrs did you loam tO' him? A. I dom't know the exact numlber; six ait the moisit. Q. What for? A. His wife was going to have a ohriJsiteiniing the following Sunday amd' inltended to hiave a; cihrisitenilng; I wajs sttewaird of the dooneistic 'buil'ding, and Hogam camje to me and asked me "Boyd, I am going to haivB' a clhriistteninig next week; it isn't worth while for me to go to the expense of buying cups and saucers and thitags thalt will be mo eajrtJhly use toi me after tlie choisitening is over; if you will kindly lendi me a few out of thosle three baifflels extra we hiaive laying, theire;" I said I \\<)iildn't like to do it; he said it would be all right; I ispoke t/o the principal keeper HalpSn about it; hie said; "I wouidni't do it; the flust thing you know you wUl be gertltSng a dtengireleiable type^ writer: from the suiperintenidlenit aboiufc it;" I ran dhianicea oi get ting a diSagneealble typewriltler aiild I lent Hoigani the cups and siauoens. Q. Do you remjember the diay of the week you loajnied them? A. The twenty-flisit of May it was. Q. Were thesie cups and siaucerei rettumed? A. All netujmed tb the refonnatory. Q. Do you nemember the day of the week they wene returned gni? A. Noi, sir; they weren't neturMed until I had! beeniredluiced. Q. Do you know how many days thiey were refcadmed by Hogan? A. He was to retuinn; tihjem to mie the foltowdng Mbmdiay. Q. They were loaned to Hogani on Pridiay? A. For iMe chirils- tiening on Sunday. Q. Were they returned on Monday? A. We -^(fere neducedl in the mjeanrtime. . ' Q. What day in) the week were you ireduioedl? A. On Friday, the twenty-seconid of May; I am not sure of ithe day. Q. Were there any oitiher dlsihes loaned him? A. Noi, sSr; only the oups and saucena Q. Whait kind of oups? A. Why, a dollar and a half would buy the whole lot. Q. You say for that and that alotne you were reduced to the loweist grade? A. Yes, siir; Mr. Winnie wenlt) out' to Mir, Brock- way I uuideristood after. Q. You need not state what you heard, but previous to that you had been an inmate officer for how long a time ? A. For five months and a half. 693 Q. What position did you fill ? A. Steward of the. domestic building. Q. What name or title was that officer known by ? A. I was a military captain. [ Q. It was the duty of the military captain, as you understood it, to take charge of the department you had charge of ? A. Yes, sir; I had full charge of the citizen offlcers under me. Q. Do you know whether, before you were reduced, whether your case had ever, in any manner, been presented, that is, your application had evei' in any way been, presented to the board of mauagemenit flor your paiH>le ? A.. X wa^ paroled when thia happened. , i Q. To be paroled so a® to go out of the prislon ? A. No, sir; there never was any talk at all about that. ' Q. Were you ,perniitted in the parole that you had to go outside of the prdisoo you recollect, in the charges, that were then made against you that this letter that you have now been speaking about was one .of the charges? A. Yes, sir; one of the chaiitges they made. 696: Q. You sajy altb.oiuig'h. that ocourredi twenty montlis before and althouig'h. yoni had 'been rednced to- the red-suit grade after that and had eamad the first gTade by good conduct afterward? A. My fltost redti'Cition wajs for the cupsi land ^saucers alone; then I went through the grades agiadia; now. I was reduced for this letter and the other ciharges. Q. Isn't it a fact that this lett-er, the dire'cting of that, oeeumed about two weeks before you were sent here? A. About thi-ee weeto; Q. I understood you it was several months- befoTie? A. Oh, no. Q. Whatever itihe charges were which ca.used you to be triausF ferred froan the Ehnina Beformiatory to this prison, did you have a hearing before a court martial or befor;i any of the officers, of the refoiinatoiry relating to the chargesi? A. No, sir; nor a pre- tense of any kind, 'Only Mr. Hoppe came to the dungeon ia wjhich I was and read those chiarges off to me, and I newer isiaw itlxe courb(mjaiit|aiI. Q. Didai't you see the 'Witnesses, or weren't you confronted with the witnesses who made statements against you? A. No, sii;; never isaw oinia of my aocusersi; didn't get a pretense of a trial of any kind; I was simply locked up Sunday night; was kept lofked up Sunday, Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, the supernm- tendent and Mr. Hoppe came to see me, and asked me, " Did you want to sea me?" I said, " Yes; I want to know what I am locked up for;" he said to Mr. Hoppe, " Tell hihi;" Mr. Hoppe read these charges off to me; Friday morning they came to me with a red suit and threw it down, and said, "Put that on;" I says, "What for; I haven't had any triial;'' "I don't know; that is my order from th;e superintendent;" the same to a man named Walters, althouglh when Mr. Hoppe read the charges to me, I told them they were all a tissue of falsehoods tmux beginning to end, and if- 1 had 'the slightest chance I could prove: them tnfamous lies, but I got no. hearing of lany kind; but simply locked up and shackled hand and foot, and sent here Saturday, February fourteenith, packed off here without a hearing of any kind; there was a oourtmartial sitting to hear those charges and investigaite but I never saiw the court-martial. * Q. You isay before you were reduced the first time for having loaned the dishes you had standing to your credit about seventy- six dollars? A. Seventy-six dollars to my credit. Q. At the time you were trajusferred to this prison had you, in additon to that, lany money standing to your credit? A. About the same amount or a little over it. Q. Do you mean that you had by employment in the prispn after you had reached the first grade the second time, that you were acting in the capacity of am inmate officer? A. Yes, sir. 696 Q. Amd that as suchi you were receiving pay for your services? A. Yes, sir. Q. And tliat you had again, the second tome earned seventy- six dollars? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that in all you had about |150? A. Yes, sir. Q. Haive you received that? A. No, sir; H have received noth- ing but a suit of red flannels he sent me here, eunA thati is what they call clothes, without a handkerchief, or euspenideie, or any- thing else. Q. When you were notified that you were to be tranHferred to this prison, whait did they do with you? A. They didn't notify me at all; jus* shackled me hand and foot. Q. How long was it after you were notified thait you would be transferred to this prison before the shaddes wei'e put ooi to you? A. The night before I heard omly through hearing inmates talk- ing that I was going to be sent to State prison the next morning, but ofi&cially I knew nothing at all about it. Q. The first intimation you had of it was the night before the shackles were put upon' you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remember the day of the week? A. Saturday morning. Q. How long al time were you shackled before you were taken from the reformatory to this prison? A. Friday night, shackled to another man; the Irwo of us were thrown on| the floor in the solitary together; two men are shackled togerther andi they are thrown on the floor in the solitary, two mem in a dark cell. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before you were sent to the reformatory? A. No, sir. Q. ipiad you ever been in prison? A. No, sir. Q. That was your first offense? A. My first offense. Q. Up to the time that you were transferred you say to this prison no other charges had been made against you except those which related first to your loaming the dishes, seoond, with refer- ence to immoral conduct, and relating to the writing of the letter? A. That is all ; all right along my conduct was perfect. Q. Were the charges relating to immoral conduct true? A. No, sir; they were infamous lies and I could prove them. Q. Do you know who was your accuBer? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you know his name? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't Hoppe or anyone else state to you the name® of your accusers? A. He read it off to me on the papers; I was locked up for three da,ys then in the solitary, starved; I hadn't my proper senses ajbout me to take in anything; he might as well be reading Greek to me. Q. When he read the charges to you, didn't he say to you that you could have an opportunity to go before the board and investi- m gate the matter' if you, wished to? A. No, sir; I saidl when Mr. Hoppe flnieihed reading': " They are all a tisisne of lies from begin- ning to end, and if I get a chance I can prove them; " Mr. Hoppe' didn't make an anmver and the late superintendent didn't make an answer. Q. Did you, in any way, notify the siuperintendent that yoa desired an ' opportunity to appear before the court-martial to investigate this? A. Yes, sirj riglit then. Q. Did you, tu aiiy otlier way, except through Hoppe? A. No, sir; I couldm't. Q. Do you know or have you any knowledge of the fact that Hoppe reportedl to the superintendent that you did desire a tear- ing before the court-martial ? A. The superintendent and Mr. Hoppe were together. Q. When you stated to them that you desired to have the mat- ter investigated, that you could prove yourself innocent, what reply did Mr. Broekway make ? A. None; he went to the next door and said to the man, " Do you want to see me;" that is the only trial of any kind I tad; that is what they call my trial, I g'uess. Q. Do you know whether your matter was presented before the board of management ? A. I know it wasn't. Q. In short, you iasfet so far as your case is concerned, that you were transferred from the Elmira Eeformatory, to the Auburn State prison upon charges that were made against you that you never had an opportunity to refute or dispute ? A. That is it, exactly; yes, sir; I never had any opportunity to refute amy charge miade against me. Q. Do you understand whaA the maximum penalty is or the length of time you may serve in prison ? A. Yes, sir; five years. Q. What year was it you were sent to the reformatory ? A. July, 1889; if I did all the five jeaxk. Q. The maximum would expire next July? A. I have earned good time here, and I go out in April. Q. Wha;t has your record been since you have been here ? A. First-class. Q^ Have you been punished in any way ? A. No, sir; any man who minds his own business and does bis work here can get along. Q. What is your employment ? A. Stock clerk for the hard- ware department. Q. What was your employment in, the reformatory ? A. Steward of the domestic building; different occupations; I was in the business office under Mr. Hoppe; in charge of the foundry ledger. ■ .^ _, , ; 698 Q. What was your employment before you were sent to tlie reformatory ? A. Bookkeeper and bartender. Q. What is your nationality ? A. Irish.. Q. Born in tMs country ? A. No, sir. Q. What was your age when you were sent to the reformatory ? A. Twenty-sdx. Q. Married man or single ? A. Single. Q. Were you acquainted with a colored imnate by the name of Johnson ? A. I knew him weU. Q. What^ if anything, do you know in reference to hisi being severely punished in the bath-room ? A. I know for a little disi- ti.rbance in the foundry he was chalked in and he wasi to be brought down, as is the usual way there, after dinner to the bath-room, and instead of allowing him to enter the bath-room, as they do all inmate, Halpin and Sample stood behind the door and the moment he came in they pounced right on him and pounded his head into a jeiliy; I saw Johnsom camed: .thW)fughtih.e hall. Q. Did you see them as they assaulted him ? A. No, sir; no one can see that but Mr. Brockway and the two men. Q. You don't know ttat tihiey ajtjtaickedl Mm iii the way yoiu say except from what you heard from others ? A. That is all. Q. I want to know what you saw in reference to Johnson ? A. I didn't see him get beat; I saw him carried through the hall with a blanket or an old coat or something thrown, over his head and brought from the bath-room down and locked up in the solitary, and left a track of blood all the way down through the hall. Q. Who carried him down thi'ough the hall ? A. Sample; I Vion't be sm'e who the other was; I was watching Johnson. Q. Did you see Johnson after that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What marks or scars ? A. I wasn't close enough to him for that; all I could see him wa;s in his company. Q. You weren't close enough to him after that to observe whether there were any scars upon him; what do you know in reference to his having been taken, to the hospital Oi^er that ? A. I don't know anything about that. Q. Do you mean to say he was earned dowmi tjhroiugjh the hall? A. He was shoved, half diraggied!, pulled! alouig.; Johmsiotn was on hie fteiertj I believe when they did get down mieair the tsioiIitair|y tlhiey lifted him bodily off the gnoftuid altogerthjer; pajsisiLng me ajt tte other end of the hall hie wiasi on hist fteietL Q. You couldn't say whiethari they liiftedi him off ihiis feet or not.? A. No, sair; the distance is too far down from] the sitjorei room to the solitelry. MjTt Stanichfield. — I ask tO' strike that ouit tlhjeia 699 Mr. Littdhfleld. — Sttniike thJartl oluit. Q. Give yoiii retaisonsi wliy yom itihitik tiiey lifted him; to the oeill? A. I Slaw thiem. istop whieoa Utey caime neain tihje solitary; 1 dioiDi'it koiow wbettojeir tJbbey liftltedi h ' jim' up or moib. Q. Wharf; oell wais he tiakieni to? A. It was oaiUed Nol 4, the soltafry. ! ■■ Q. Do yoiu know hoiw long he leimjainiedl ini tiliat cell? A. No, sir; I dio mot. j Q. Do you know wh.etlhe(ii he was clhained in. tbie cell? A No, slLri. \ ' \ Q. As an officer werei yoiu required to jperfbrim, laaiy of yoiur durtSes in that hall? A. Noi, eiih Q. You don't know panticulatriy what wais going on? A. No, sill; I was just paisising thlrotug'hi thle hall. Q. Wh.at if anything do yow know in nef emence toi olthein inimates or jxrfeoneiTs toeing omelly tneiartied? A I seen an inmjatte named Lynch, 3411, on two oooalsliionisi binoiightt otuit from rfjhle hiaM to wheire he wotpfced ta the printing office and his neck aiU coivieired with bloiad and his face all marked up; Mir. MciLaughln wae taking h|iiTTii oiuit halmiself . Q. Do you know whiene he receiyed thiosie blruisie^? A. In the barffti-Ttooni. \ j Q. How do yon know thiait? A. I eeen him cioaning out of th.e bartturoom; coming from the Iblalth-iroom. Q. Do you know anything abiouit the numlbelr of tdmiesi hie warn padldled? A. Not, sir; only conunon talk. Q. You don't know of your own kniowledgie how mjany blows he neceoivied? A. Noi, sdo'. Q. Whjaib if anytMng do, you know aibout otheT! iomarties being hlaipshly ideated? A. I was dloinig dluty on the siourtlh wing one day and I waia paissiing a jioom and I heard moaning andl I looked in and aisteed the man what was the miatter. Q. Starts what you saw? A. Ttoe man'si bteick, from' his shjould- em to the snuall of hisi baick, hfa posttieriolr and thighs were in suA lai naiW state that I could eat mo dinnerL Q. (Mr. Litohifleld.) Stand up and show how high up it was? A. His back hfere, the small of the back here and here and down to hiene, and one of his hips was swelled out. Q. No marks on his shoulders? A. No marksi on his shoulders. Q. (Mr. litchfleld.) Describe those marks; were they bleeding? A. Yes; bleeding, the skin all broken and his raw flesh, exposed; tbe side of his .face all drawn dJown; hie wias laid iii about ttnee weeks with it; I won't be positive how long he wasi in. Q. Laid! in where? A. In his room, unable to work. Q. How long was it aftier he reoeiTed' the punishment that you saw him,? A. The next day, I think it was. 700 Q. How do you know it was received in the bathj-room? A. No man cooildn't be in tJiat condition, except b.e is in tlie bath-room. Q. Do yon remember Ms name? A. John Witzman; he is in this pirison here. Q. Do you remember any other instaaioe? A. Nothing that I could point out as evidence. Q. Do you know a man named Earl? A. Yeis; he was duty man while I waa an inmate; when he came there he was qitite a bright young fellow; he is an undertaker, sent from Brooklyn; he is now a perfect gibbering idiot from con^ant beating. Q. What do you know about his being beaten? A. The man telling me himself. I Mr. Stanohfield. — I ask to strike that out. Q. What have you seen with reference to bruises upon him? A. I haven't see bruises. | Q. What have you see with reference to his going to and from the bath-room? A. I have seen him chalked in to go to the bath- room; the officer comes around and puts two chalks on his door. Q. What did you observe with reference to his appearance after he had been chalked in? A. I don't remember particularly about marks. Q. Do you remember about how many times he was chalked in? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. What department was he employed in? A. Printing. Q. How old a boy? A. About 16 or 17 years old. Q. Strong? A. No; frail. Q. Do you know what he was chalked in for? A. I don't know; talking and laughing. , Q. Where is he now? A. I presume in the reformatoryi yet. Q. Do you know a man named Smith (4819)? A. Yes; a little boy named Smith. Q. What do you know about him? A. To get paddled for tobacco; for having a chew of tobacco in his possession he got a paddling. Q. Leave any marks upom' him that you observed? A.i No. Q. Did you know an inmate named Cox? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know anything particularly about his being pun- ished? A. Yes, sir; he was a perfect idiot; no sense at all; oonldn't tell his own name if you asked him qnicMy; I have seen him come ont of the bath-room; he was so disfigured I couldn't tell who he was; two eye-ballsl were out here; aJl his face dis- colored. / Q. You saw him as he was coming out of the bath-room? A. Yes, sir; andj received a graphic description that night from the Iffincipal keeper of how he got paddled. J, 701 Q. Grivie the naime of the keeper? A. PjAncilpal keeper, Hailpiii. Q. Wlhat did Halpin tell you? A. Halpdin told me the usual way for a, man to walk up to the wall and put Ms hand up to the window and turn hils head aside from Brockway, amd Mr. Brock- way gets behind Oox, getting into position ; "Now Cox, whatever' I do, don't turn your head;" and the poor idiot, nervous, would stand to the wiimdow that way, and Mr. Brockway kept jshuffltng and Co'X would hold out as long as he could and wiould have to turn (hils head, then he would give him a rap of the paddle on his face; he was trying to make Cox undenstand, "If you don't turn your head, I will let you go with onei rap;" then he would get Cox in position aigain and get behind Oox and dance again until Oox, meirvous fellow, would t*um his head thisi way, and he would give it to him again; Halpin told me hiigi heart actually^ bled for the poor idiot; he had ho sense at ail. Q. You saw *0ox afteir this puniisihment? A. Oh, yesi; it was notorious in the insititution, Cox's punishmient. Q. How sooji a.fter the puniishment was it that you saw him? A. I think it was the next day; I can't exactly state. Q. Did you see him as he wasi coming out? A. No, sir; I saw him in the tin shop working the next day. Q. What miarksi did you see upon him the next day? A. His two eye-balls swelled out and his face disfigured in a ruthless manner; hils face was in such shape. Q. Was it cut? A. No, sir; but blacliened and bruised and swollen. I ' Q. Do you remembier the State Board of Charities or the Grov- ernor called at the reformatory at any time? A. The Chemung grand jury I have seen; I have seen the Grovernor there; Mr. Hoppe escorted him around the inistitution. Q. When it was known that tlie institution was to be visited by officials, what difference, if any, wias there in the management or with reference to the fai-^e, etc., which the' inmates received? A. They would get an apple, or an onion or something of that kind. Q. That ail the extra fare they would get — I want to know whether there was any changei in the mamagement or any improve- ment in the management of the reformatory or any change made in the 'food whicth thle ininuaibeBi rieoeired upon thtoBB' occasionisi? A. No; the food itseif, the isoup and the meat, they would be exactlv the same, but there would be more care talcen with the dining-room; white cloths and laid out better and kept cleaner; Comstock, a man was there as — Q. Simply state what you saw? 702 Mr. Litchfield. — Do not tihiey give Hhem aipples regularly? A The apj>le is a feast; get them three or four times a yeax, og special occasions. Q. On other occasionjs than tlioee of Tisits of odBciate? A. Yes sir; I have heard Brockway say to Colonel Halpdn, "The granc jury "wUl be here this ajftemoon; is thei*e anyone below?" "Yes there is one man;'" the principal keeper, Halpin, has told nue him self, "I was through the solitary tMs afternoon with the gram jury and there was one fellow in there chained but he didn't ^stir and I was afraid he would open his month or make SMne noise and the atmosphere was at eighty degi'eee; we all came up per spiring ; we had to use our handkerchiefs, and imagine that pooi fellow down there chained tO' the floor with the heat of the steam pipes turned on; I was rerv^ glad he made no noise to attract tlh( Ohemung county grand jury. Q. When was that? A. On one occasion; I don't know tlw exact time. - > Q. About how long ago was it? A. I couldn't really tell. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you mean to say you never had applee unless ym M ere visited by officials; did you not get apples sometjimes ? A. In my experience I only got about three apples in all my time in three years and a half. Q. Can you specify those tliree occasions ? A. No, sir; I can not. ' I Q. Did you always get them on holidays ? ^. No, sir. Q. Or other fruit ? A. A banana, sometimes an orange. Q. Don't you get bananas frequently ? A. No ; holidays we get a banana; those are all exceptional times. Q. You do have fruit at times other than times when, officials pre accustomed to visit the reformatory ? A. There was one time we got them as we passed in at the silide; each man was banded an apple, but I forget whether it was a special occasiion or not. By Judge Gilbert: Q. "WTiile you were there as an inmate officer did Mr. BroCk- way, upon regular occasions, visit the ^ai'ious departments of the reformatory ? A. Oh, yes; he did. Q. He would go around through ? A. Go arouud through and examine them thoroughly. Q. How often would he do. that ? A. Once a day, at least. Q. So that Mr. Brockway didi during that time you were there, of your own knowledge, give his personal attention to the entire refonnatory, its workings, its management, etc. ? A. Yes, sir. 703 Q. He didn't leave it for Halpin and the under officers entirely ? A. Yes, sir; a good deal is left to them. Q. He had a general snpervision daily over the whole thing ? A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were there what do you know in reference to the board of management going through the institution ? A. The board of managers meet as an audit board once a month and parole board board every three months; when they meet as a parole board — Q. (Interrupting.) That I don't care so particularly about, but I want to know whether the board of managers go at stated times, went around through the institution, to see how it was being- managed ? A. I have never seen them; I have seen them pass through the domesitic building, stand on the grass plot during dress parade. Q. Do you know whether the board of management were per- sonally at these punishments' ? A. No, sir; they knew nothing at all about them; a man is chalked in at 12.30 and he is spanked before 1 o'clock. Q. The hour for punishments is usually between 12 and 1 ? A. Yes, sir, called the "matinee" by '!'e inmates; when there is no paddling las wx exception; it is a red letter day in the refoDranajtjory. Q. How is it on Sundays ? A. On Sundays there is no pad- dling or a day the board of managers are there or any special visiting, but the men are kept chalked in until the following day. Q. What do you know in reference to men being chained in the solitaries ? A. I don't know much about that; that is all kept between a man they call the colonel, Bryan and Halpin, and the superintendent and the hall-keeper, Sample; while the paddling is going on the old entrance to the main building, there is an inmate stationed to that door to allow no one to pass down through the hall; no one is allowed to pass down through the south hall. Q. Sample was the officer who had charge of the corridor or hall ? A. He was the store-ix)om keeper. Q. That part of the prison where the paddling occmred ? A. Yes, sir; Sample is the man that does all the thumping. Q. Do jon know in reference to officers striking inmates ? A. It is a regular thing; I have seen it several times. Q. Who have you ever seen struck by an officer ? A. A man named Pearce, struck in the mouth and face and knocked down by Sample. Q. WTiat had Pearce been doing ? A. Nothing, . generally; he was under nay charge. Q. Wasn't he assaulting.an. officer or one of the inmates at the time ? A. No, sir. 704 Q. "Wliere was it ? A. It was on my report this happened him. Q. What did yon report him for ? A. Spea.kint; to Halpin, not ofiScially; I said Pearce was a pretty fresh fellow; Sample said " Yes," and s^vore, " I tliink he is,"'' and went right for him right there and hit him in the face and knocked him down and jumped 0:1 him whUe he was down, and said, " I only done tha;t to you to let you see I can do it, that you are a cur, that you ain't a man, that you ain't aJble to fight me hack." Q. Hadn't Pearce said something ? A. No, sir. Q. Who was present when that occurred ? A. All the men that worked in the laundry and myse\f. Q. This was in the laundry ? A. fo. the laundry, where I had charge. Q. You rei)orted that, it being your duty ? A. He knew all about that. I ; - ' Q. It waa yom- duty in the first place to report what this Pearce had said to the keeper ? A. No, sir. Q. You simply made a statement to him ? A. Simply made the statement. Q. Wasn't it your duty to report to the superintendent the fact that this officer had assaulted Pearce in the way he did ? A. No, sir; I didn't consider it so; he was a citizen officer at fifty dollars or sixty dollars a month and I was an ex-cbnvict officer. Q. Didn't you know it was your duty to report that to the superintendent ? A. I supposie come down to a real fine point, I should go and tell it to the superintendent, but I really know what would be the outcome of my telling the superintendent. Q. 'i'ou didn't report him ? A. No. Q. You say the reason why you didn't report him, you feared ihe consequences to yourself ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did Sample swear on this particular occasion ? A. Yes, sir. Q. WTiat did he siay ? A. By Jesus. ' Q. Do you know of an officer strildng any other inmate ? A. Yes, sir; I hare seen Halpin strike an inmate named Grilmartin ill the laundry. Q. What for ? A. For talking to another inmate while wash- ing shirts at the tubs; he called over Grilmartin. Q. What did Halpin do ? A. He says, " What are you talking about;" Grilmartin gave him some excuse, said "This man spoke to me first," and Halpin punched him in the jaw. Q. Struck him with his fist ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Cut his face ? A. No, sir. Q. Leave any mark ? A. No, sir; gave him a thump in the face. 705 Q. Knock him down ? A. No. By Ju^ge Gilbert: Q. WTien Pearce. was struck did it leave any mairk upon his face ? A. No, sir. Q. Draw blood ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know of any other ? A. Yes, sir; I have seen Colonel Bryan strike a man for not understanding what the word " urinat- ing" meant. Q. Whiat are the circumistances? A. This mam Millar was accujsed of a very igrave charge, and another man; CJolonel Bryan came to investagate the matter, and Miller was explaining toi the Colonel the charge against him was false and he could explain it to be so; ithe colonel said, "Were you urinating at itihe time the oflBceir went down in the ceHar?" and MiUer said, "Was I what?" the colonel uised the 'Common expreslsion for urinating, and struck , him in the face, and says. "Now, perhajps you understand that." Q. Colonel Bryan did that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he leave any mark upon his face? A. No, sir. Q. What was that m'an'si name? A. TweniTf-eight hundred and eighty-onei, Miller, and tfce other ihan's name was Treto. Q. Was that Miller the same oine with whom you were accused of having an .offense against natune? A. I don't know who my accusers laxe. Q. Did you not know among the men you are charged with—? A. It couldn't be that MUler, beeause th.e Miller I speak about has been in this prison a couple of years, I guess. Q. Do you recollect of any other case where an oflftcer has assaulted men? A. I guess that is all that came under my supervision. Q. In reference to th6 use of profane language, do you know of any officers using profane language? A. Oh, yes; a common thing in the refonmatory. Q. I mean to the inmates, while controlling an 'inmate? A. Yeis. ^. Can Jim specify any particular instance? A. No; I can not; lit is too common a thing; I never took any notice of it. Q. Do you recollect of the superintendent using profane language to the inmates? A. No; the only thing ever I heard the superintendent say was, " Damn you," or " pamn it." Q. Did you ever see the superintendent strike an imnaite? A. Oh, yes; I have seen the superintendent strike an innaate. Q. Can you Specify? A. Yes; 4022, Nevins. ' Q. What did you see him do? A. I saw him coming out of til^e laundry and thump him in the face. 89 706 Q. Specify the partiicular imstance, if you can? A. Nevins was accused of having a handkereliieif and piece of blaick string they wore foi' t.ie« in the refonnajtory in his possession; he should not have it in hie possession; and Mr. Upton reported him to the superintendent, and the superintendent came down and it was I unlocked the dooi* to let the isuperintendent pass, and he ;says, " Da.nm it, I will stop this commierce," and passed ^\ith a quick gait down through the domestic buUding into the laundiT, and I -went after Mm, and he went to the photo- graph gallery where Xe^insi was emplofved, and he graihbed Nevins there and thumped him in the face sevei-ail times, and I turned my Mck and went up to the other end; the superintendent was in such a rage, I didn't know but he would go for myself for allowing such things to happen. Q. You were in charge of the laundry? A. I was in charge of the domestic building. Q. GIto his language ^nd state the facts relating to the assault? A. I don't know, only the superintendent paissing me said, "Damn it, I will .stop this commerce;" he went right for Nevins, and be then was ajboutten yards away from me when I saw htm assault Ne'^ins. Q. Did you hear any remark from Nevins? A. JJ^oi, sir; I did not. Q. Hear Nevins say anything at all? A. No, sir; only put his hands up to defend himself; I went back to the domestic building. Q. Did you see Nevins very soon afterwards? A. No, sir. Q. See any marks upon Ms face or bruises? A. No, sir; he was locked up for quite a time after that. By Mr. litchfleld: Q. Did Nevins strike at the isuperintendent? A. No, sir. Q. Did he use any language to him? A. No, sir; not a word; he hadn't time; I was right behind the superintendent, about ten yards, watching the superintendent without saying anythingj thumped him. ; By Judge Griibert: • Q. How many times did he strike him? A. Three or four times whUe I was there. Q. Did he strike him in any other way than the flat of his hand? A. With Ms fist. Q. Knock him over? A. Yes, sir. Q. Knocked him down? A. Yes, isir'; knocked him over. Q. After he got up did he strike him again? A. I don't know; just as Nevins got the last thump and went down on his knees. — Q. He didn't knock him flat? A. No, sir; I heard tMngis I can't ispeak of here about the matter. 707 Q. 'Afltenv'ands did the saperintenident say anyiMng to you about t? A. No, sir; just- oonyictg. Q. OfQ'oers? A. No, sir; no officer was a witness to it but Qyself. Q. How long was NeTins locked up afterwardei? A. I don't :now exactly; a few days h.e was abaent. Q. Do youj know what cell !h.e was placed in? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever present upon any occasion when convicts vere flnst brought to the reformatory and examined by Mr. Brock- vay? A. I was myself. Q. Did hcj upon that oiociaslon, strike any of the convicts? A. sTo, sir. , Q. You never siaw him upon any occasion of that kind sitrike I convict? A. No, sir; except my own flrsit interview with him. Q. He didtft strike you? A. No, sir. Q. When did you ever see him strike any other convict but STevins? A- That is the on^ly special time.' Q. Did you ever see any other officer, either cdtizen or .inmate )ijtic.er, strike a convict with his fist or hand? A. No, sir.. Q. When you were livings in New York youl lived a pretty fast ife? ' A. No, sir; not so very bad. Q. Didn't you* pass under the name of the Queen down there? ^. No, isar. ' • Q. Weren't you laocused of the commission of the crime of lodomy in New York? A. No, sir; never. Q. Were you ever accused of any such crime until you came Elmira? A. No, sir; this is all a trumped up charge. Q. Yoiu say thaiti tihatt was never chairged lagaiinisit you? A,. Never. Q. No such charge as that was ever made against you until Lere in the reformartory? A. In the reformatory. Q./ As you stated twice under oath, iiioee charges are utterly alse? A. Utterly false; I wrote a letter to a paroled inmate named Spillane, and in the letter I called him by the name of i^lossie, and also said : " I will be out shortly and be queen of he turf once more;" itlioise were all quotations from 3428, Meere, s'ho is known in the reformatory as a common prostitute; no ne thinks of speaking to Mm, a^ he or him, but only as she or er; lie has been on the list to be transferred to State prison even or eight times,- and every time Hoppe will go| to the super- atendent and figiht and argue and entreat the superintendent to ake him off tbe list. ' ' Q. How do you know that? A. I have seen' a letter laying on ly desk the last tnainsifer from the superintendent ito Hoppe: Hoppe, you had better make arrangements to have Meers^ place lied for I will surely transfer him, this time; nothing wiE stop 708 me;" words to that effect^ writtien in pencil to Hoppe; but Meers remained ttiere all the same; I have had lle^i-s reduced to tlie ihird grade for licentious conduct; notes' that I produced that he "vvTote another boy, addreesing him a lot of nonsense and j^ibebrish, darling boy and like that; Meea-s was reduced to the convict grade and ever since that Mr. Hoppe never liked nue; up to that time I was always friendh- with him, everything went along smoothly, but J saw a change in his manner right away from that day out, and this fellow Tloppe never let up on me until lie reduced me again; came to me and called me to his ofBce one day and says. "Boy, I smell tobacco on your breath;" I says,. "Yes; T found_ it going ovei- to the store-room;" "That is all right; but if the superintendent knew that he would reduce you for it;" he spoke very nice to uie, just like a father; I s'ays, " I am fiery much obliged to you, Mr. Hoppe^ I promise you it won't occur again;" he ^^ent right away to the (superintendent and reported the matter and had me reduced from first lieutenant down to the ranks, but I kept my grade; this matter about that non- sensical thing about trying to bring a charge like that against me, I can bring evidence from any place there is nothing like that can be brought against me. By Mr. Litchfield: , ' Q. I want to ask you of a man named Hogan ; did you know you were accused of stealing the dishes with him ? A. No; all I know Mr. Winnie called me up and said, " Say, Boyd, tMere is a grave charge against you about giving Hogan those dishes;" I said, "I just lent them for the christening;" he says, " Stay where you are and J wUl go up and see the superintendent." Q. Were you accused of loaning any other property at that time ? A. Nothing but the disiies. Q. Are you not aware of the fact the charge aga,inst you was larceny of dishea and other state property with Hogan ? A. I gave Hogan nothing but cups and saucers; we went into the store- room together; to my knowledge there was nothing but six cups and saucers. , Q. Who was Hogan ? A. A major of the regiment; fifty dol- lars a month; a paroled otHcer. Q. As. paroled officer, where did he reside ? A. Outside the prison; down at Carr's Comers. Q. Whait was going on at his house «for which he wished the dishes ? A. A christening. Q. Whose child was it; who was the father of the child, so far as you know ? A. Hogan. Q. He was a married man ? A. Yes, sir; with three children. Q. Was his wife there at that time ? A. Yes, sir. 709 Q. Were you aware of the fact that Hogan was charged with committing the crime of sodomy ? A. Yes; that is a year and a half after. Q. It wasn't at that time ? A. No, sir; he had gone through the grades again and was made a military captain again and put under pay when this charge was trumped up against Hogan. Q. Wasi he a parole man at the time the charge was made against him of sodomy ? A. Yes. Q. Was he then residing outside the prison or inside at that time ? A. He was residing outside of the prison. Q. At the time the charge was made against him ?' A. No; he was residing in the reformatory then. Q. How long had he been residing in the prision before the charge of sodomy was made against him ? A. About two months. Q. Had he been residing outside of the prison with hi^ wife ' prior to that ? A. When he was on parole the time before that. Thomas F. Walslh, being duly awoim, t^tilfied : Examined by Judgei GrUlbeint v The chailranan made the isiam,e istaitemjent to thisi witnests asi to* the former witnesBieis. . ; Q. Haye you been conflnied in the Elmilra Refoirmiatory? A. Yes, isfflr. Q. When were you sent theaie? A. Thilrteienth of Apdil, 1889. Q. Where from? A. New Yoirk city. Q. WhiaJt for? A. Assiaiult in ttlhe seicond degineie. ■Q. Were you guilty? A. Yesi, mc. Q. Did you plead guiltty? A. Yes^' siilr. Q. When wieire you sienit ttoi (tihfei prilsoni? A. Ig^ouniteenitih of January, 1893. Q. While in the refoinmiaoiry were you punished? A. Yesij'sdlr. Q. How many. tim|efii? A. Abloiutt eiighlt tlimieis. Q. Anywhiene elsie iexG|efpft upjon your iblaoK? A. Thierie w-as' miairkH after I recedved punMunenit Q. Weire blowisi sltruck on lany otiheir powtlikMi of your blody exciepit oni your back? A. Yesi, sir; I was isitiruiok acirioBSi thie face. Q. How many timieB? A. AbOuit twdloe. Q. WhaA for? A, Tuiminig my head. Q. What did you turn your heiad for? A. I coiuldnft help tuim my head. Q. Did you ory w'hile you were being punlistaed? A. No, eSir; I did niott Q. Did you beg? A. I lasiked him to let me go. Q. Wasthatt when yoiuttuimed yourheiad? A. No,8ir;befo(reit. Q. Did yott piromiisle ^ do beitteir? A. Ye^ sliir. 710 Q. AiS isaom as you promiisied did be «.toip bealing you? A. No, efilr. Q. WlhM did be say wben be was puMaihSiig you and wben you pinoimjjsied to do betiter? A. I bope you wilL Q. Did be stop tben sitriking you? A. No, eii". Q. How miainy blows did you retciedlrei tbe moat la^i one tame? A. About twelve, Q. You sltoted wbem you were trajisifeaffed to itblis prison? A. Yes^, sar. Q. Wben were you in itibe baitlb-rooim ilbe laisit ttime beifare you were IJramsifeinried? A. I wias in tbe ibaitb-room I tbiuk about tbe 6tb day of November, 1892. Q. Wbait did you notlibe, if anytlbLiig, in nef enence to Mood upon tbe waJl of tbe baitib-room? A. I inotioed one timie, it wasn't in tbat year tbougb, blood; Jobn Rudolf, bad been in tbe batb-room previous to me; tbat was in 1891. Q. Whjajt did you see witb rfiferemoe to blood upon tbe waiU? A. Tteirie wiajs on ittiie side by tbe bloitttiom Mine a pajrtfiittion epoits of Mood. Q. Wbo ibiais been in tbeie just befbirie tbat? A. I don't know wbd bad been in there tbat time; tbe time I was in I see tbe blood on tbe floor about 1891 ; Jobn Rudolf be iai uj^ bet-e now. Q. Was be punisbedi in tbe batb-room? A. Yes, isir. Q. Did you see Mm wben be came out of tbe batb-room? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see bim soon after tbat? A. He was locking on tbe same gallery about two cells away from me. Q. Wbat, if anything, did you notice in reference to scars or bruises upon bim? A. I didn't notice anything, because I didn't bave a chance. Q. Were you ever locked' up in tbe solitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. For bow long a time? A. From January, 1892, tbe twenty- first to about tbe twenty-third. Q. Only about two days? A. Yes, sir; tben I was put up in a place called tbe rest-cure. Q. Were you ever locked up in tbe solitary more than once while you were tbere? A. No, sir; I was not. , Q. Wben in tbe soHtary were you chained? A. Yes, sir; I was. Q. How? A. Cbadned by tbe wrist to a piecei of iron in the floor. Q. A ring in tbe floop? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn't it a movable ring upon a bar of iron? A. No; I wasn't chained to tbat. Q. Chained to tbe ring at tbe bottom of it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you stand up? A. No, siir. 711 Q. Yqu were there from the twenty-first to the twenty-third f Janmary? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were you fed whUe yon were there ? A. I got hash H the moKQlng and bread. Q. What were you put in there for? A. Alcohol they claim. Q. You were charged with having alcohol? A. Yes, sii-. Q. In your possession or been drinking? A. Been drinking. Q. While you were confined in the solitary were the blinds over he windows closed; was the solitary dark? A. Yes, stk. Q. On which side of the solitaries were you confined; the tier acing the wiudowa or the rear tier ? A. The tier facing the I'indowa. Q. While you were there were the inside blinds closed over the s'indows? A. No, sir; they were not. ' Q. Did Dr. Wey visit you while you were in the solitary? A. fo, sir. Q. Then you Were sent to the rest-cure? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you remain' in the rest-cure? A. About nine Q. What did ypu have while you vs'ere there to eat? A. The lame; hash in the morning and two slices of bread. ' Q. As a general thinig, what were yon punishry ? A. Yes, sir; I would like to bare a lawyer before I go any funtiher. . 713 Q. We will take care of yoji; wliere were you semt to tke refonnatopy from ? A. New York. Q. When ? A. Eighteen hundred "and ninety. Q. WTiat time in 1890 ? A. The fourteenth or thirteenth of February. Q. "V^Tiat for ; what offense were you accused of ? A. Taking stuff out of a hotel. Q. Did you plead guilty or did you have a trial before a jury ? A. I pleaded guilty. \ Q. When were you transferred to this prison ? A. Seventeenth of March, 1891. Q. While in the reformatory were you punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times ? A. Once. Q. For what ? A. For not doing my task. Q. In what ? A. In the foundry. Q. Had you, before you were punished, been warned you njust •perform your task ? A. No, sir. - Q. What had you been to work at; what was your employmenit before you were sent to the reformatory ? A. Waiter. Q. Upon thei oiocasion when you were punishesd, were you struck anjTvhere else except upon the baiok? A. No, sir. CJ. Were you struck by any offiicer at any time while you were in the reformartx)ry an;f other place except upon the back? A. No, sir; I was punched in the back by Mr. Winnie; punched against the wall. Q. What did he do? A. He punched me. back of the neck and my back. Q. He struck you? A. Yes, sir; it| is the trutii I am telling now. , Q. Make any mark upon your face or back? A. No, sir. Q. Struck you with his^ fist? A. Yes, sir. Q. Why? A. Bleioause I couldn't get up> after getting the paddling; I couldn't stand. Q. While you were down you received a blow from Mr. Winnie? A. Yes,, Mir. ' Q. Were you also kicked while you were down? A. No^ pir; this is the truth I am now telling. Q. He only isifcruck yoiu? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon your back and your head? A. In the neck. Q. But didn't leave any mark upon you? A. No, sir. Q. While in the reformatory, what, if anything, do you know in reference to, a convict or inmate dying in his cell? A. I carried one dead man out of , the reception cell; they called them recejp- tion cells, but it is more of a solitary. 90 71* Q. One of those large, square cells? A. Yes; tihe same size ap the ones here. Q. Do you know when the man was put in the I'eceprtion cells? A. I do not.. I Q. Do Tou know how long he had 'been in there? A. I used to see him coming down once in awhile to get shaved; I guess he was in three or four weeks. Q. In the cell or in the reformatory? A. I don't know whether he was in the solitary or not, but I cai'ricd hiim. out of the soli- tjary, but he came from the solitary to where the hospital is. Q. Who helped you carry him out? A. I do not know the man's niaane, but McMsih was there, a keeper. ' Q. Do you know the name of the convict that died? A. Old Hank they used to call Mm. Q. Did you kno\\' hie consecutiA'e number? A. I did not. Q. Do you know what he died with? A. I did not. Q. Do you know whether heTiad been in the hospit-al before* that or not? A. I never seen him in the hospital and I couldn'it isay. ^ Q. Was there aHhed in the cell? A. Yes, sir; I scrubbed the cell out and carried the bed out, and tliere were some craclieriB on the floor aaid some waiter thei^e; took hiis cap and clothes and shoes out. Q. Did you hear Keeper McWsh call thei doctor's attention to "this man Hanik? A. Yes, sir; in the morning when I was taking up the buckets. Q. The morning you carried him omt? A. I carried him out aifter dinner; the keeper spoke 1x) thei doctor about it and the doc- tor laughed. Q. What did the keeper say to the doctor? A. I am not sure' what he says ; I think it was, " He aint eat anything." Q. What reply did the doctor make toi that? A. I did not hear. Q. What did you see the doctor do? A. I saw himi walk away; the two of them laughed together, McNish and the doctor. Q. Did the doctor go to the cell? A. I could not say; I stayed where my buckets was. Q. You wcfut into this mean's cell for his bucket that morning? A. Xo, sir;'! couldn't get in there; I was in the hall working. Q. The biickets you referred to were the buckets that were in the hall? A. Yes, sir. (.1 You weren't in Hank's cell that morning? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know whether he was alire in the morniijg or not? A. No, sir. Q. Only from what was said between this oificer and the doctor? A. That is all; I carried him out the same day diead. 715 Q. Ry whose order did you carry_ Mm out? A. By McNisih's. Q. Where did you carry him to? A. On the elevator. Q. Where did you leave him? A. I was put out then; I don't know where they took him; I suppose took him* to the hospital; when the men came down I asked them how*, was Hank: " Oh, he is dying up in the hospital." Q. He wasn't de^d when you took himi out of the cell? A. He was as cold as ice; I put my hand on his forehead; a^ stiff as a board. Q. ]iVhat doctor was it this officer spoke to? A. The genitleman that is behind you; Dr. Wey. Q. Da you know of any other name that this deceased inmate went by except the name of Hank? A. I do not. Q. Can't you recoUect his consecutive number? A. No, sir. Q. Can you recollect the department he was employed in? A- No, sir, Q. Do you recollect the part of the prison he was confined in before he was put in the solitary or reception ? A. I do not. Q. Do you recollect when this 'occurred? ^. No, ^ir. Q. At this time did you occupy any official position? A. No, sir; only hallman. Q. It was your duty to look after the hall? A. After the men's cell. Q. To clean the hall and sweepi ilt? A. Yes, sir. Q. And see that these buckets were emptied and properly looked after? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had youl ever been ini that cell before you went in to take this man out? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know that it was one of the three reception cells, as they were called, large, square cells, or was it in one of the three-comer cells? A. It was in the end cell of the reception, the comer cell. Q. A cell about seven or eight feet square? A. Yes, sir. Q. You 'Stated when you were transferred here it was in 1891? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long was it before your transfer here that you took this man out of his cell? A. I don't recollect; aU I know I carried him out. Q. You can't tell whether it was a week or a month? A. There is no good of my guessing. i Q. Whether it was in your besit judgment a week before or a month before? A. I don't' wish to^ state; I don't remember. Q. You were only there thirteen months? A. Yes, sir. < Q. Did this occur immediately after your arrival there? A. Might have been a few months before I came here. 716 Q. Was it in the winter or the summer? A. It was summer because the men were coming down to get »ome fresh air that was sick; I asked them the quesition and they said he was dying; they wouldn't come down in the winter. Q. How many were with you when you took thia man out of the cell? A. Three. , Q. Two besides yourself? A. Yes. Q. Can you name the keeper's name? A. MoMsh. Q. Can you name the other inmiate that was with you? A. I can not. Q. When you removed him from the cell did you remove him aa you would remove or handle a dead man; was he cold and stiff? A. Certainly he was as cold and stiff ais he could be, and thin as a rail, toa \ Q. Was he dead? A. He must have been dead when he was stiff and cold. Q. As you understood it, he was taken out to the hospital? A. Put on the elevator that goes up to the hospital. Q. By what name is that elevator known ? A. I do not know. Q. Is that the only elevator that runs up in that part ? A. All I know. Q. Had you ever noticed this man before ? A. Yes; he used to come down my flags whei'e I was working to get shaved. Q. What was there peculiar about hiiii that you noticed ? A. All I know, the mam wa^ sick audi lame and had at stick. Q. Went with a cane ? A. Yes, sir; he wasn't the only one that went with a cane. Q. Can you describe his appearance, the colorof his hair ? A. No; I didn't pay much attention to the man. Q. Or whether his hair waa gray? A. I didn't pay much atten- tion to his hair; all I know 1 carried the man out. Q. Do you know whether he was in the hospital a part of the time when you saw him with the cane ? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Did he go out with the gang of invalids that you referred to ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know where those invalids came from ? A. No, sir. Q. Whether they came froih the hospital ? A. Oh, yes; they came out of there; Cod knows where they came from when they came out of there. Q. How did you take hold of this man ? A. By the legs and the head; I was at the foot of the man.. Q. Anyone have hold with you there ? A. Another convict. Q. Where was McNish ? A. He was walking alopg. Q. He didn't take hold of the body at all ? A. No, sir. • 111 Q. Can't you tell whether that occurred a week w month before you were transferred ? A. No, sir; I know it was in the summer. Q. Never saw that man after that occurred ? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. I am requested to ask you if you were ever Imprisoned before you were sent to the Elmii-a reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you state to Mr. Brockway on entering the reforma- tory that you had been imprisoned in Liverpool ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in Liverpool ? A. No sir. Q. What is your nationality ? A. English. Q. Were you born in this country ? A. No, sir; London. Q. WTiat was your age when you came to this country ? A. About 15. ■ Q. Do you say it isn't true that you were in prisi?)n ta Liver- pool ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you imprisoned at all in England ? A. No, sir. Q. Or in any reformatory institution there ? A. No, sir. Q. Or any place of confinement ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in any place of conflnamenf before you came ti Elmira ? A. Yes, sir; on the Island, for dninkenness and dis- orderly conduct. ' Q. How long were you there ? A. Six months. Q. Were you ever there more than once ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you (ever in any other penal institution or place of con- finement in this country before going to Elmira ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever accused of any criminal offense before you were accused of the one of which you were convicted and sent to Elmira ? A. No, sir. Q. Sure of that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever tell Brockway or anyone else that you had once been, confined in prison in Liverpool ? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you do that for the purpose of being transferred ? A. 1 done it to save my life; that was the game up there to tell him they were convicts to get sent here. Q. Didn't you tell BroCkway or the ofScers that you had been convicted of crime in England ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And imprisoned in Liverpool ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then it is true ? A. No, sir. Q. It is true you did tell Brockway that? A. Yes, sir; I told him that. Q. You say it isn't true that you were impri'soned? A. No, isir. Q. Didn't you make this statement to Mr. Brockway when you were first interviewed, when you were first taken to the refor- matory, didn't you ,make that statement to him then? A. No, sir; I did not 718^ Q. Didn't you state to hini then that you had been conncted of crime before? A. No, sir. Q. You didn't make a statement that you had been impri>»^ed in Liverpool until just before yoii were transferred? A. When I got in the red suit. Q. How long had you been in the reformatory before you got in the red suit? A. Seven or eight months. Q. What had your recoi'd been up to about the time you got in th<^ red suit? A. It wasn't vei'y bad. Q. "\Miat were you put in the red suit for? A. Schooiing; not passing in school. Q. You were not charged with any other violation of the rales? A. Yes, isir. Q. T\'ihat other violations wn-e you chairged with besides not keeping up with your class? A. Once for fighting. Q. Fighting who A. One of the inmates. Q. Didn't you state you were imprisoned in Liverpool under the name of Edward Sweeney? A. No, sir. Q. Thait you were in rurdalp priison, and the first time six months, second time, fifteen months for sho^-lif ting ; did yoiu state auA'thing of that kind? A. When I got in the red suit I stated that. Q. Was that true? A. No, sir. Q. .Vlso "was five yeairs in St. 'George Industrial School, liver- pool. England? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever in that? A. No, sir. Q. And tjhat you moved from England at 11 years of age; Aug- ust 1, 1890, reduced to new second grade; is it true that you were but 11 years of age when you came from England? A. No, sir. Q. What iis your aige now? A. I couldn't siay. Q. "^Tiat was your age when you came from England? A. 1 guess about 14 or 15. Q. You were reduced in grade, as you say, for quarreling, in the haU? A. No, isir; schooling. Q. Wasn't it true you quarreled with an inmate in the hall? 2S.. Yes, sir. • Q. And you were also charged with malingering? A. Yes, sir. Q. And also charged with lying? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know you were ever charged with that? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever charged' with fraud at work? A. Yes, sir. Q. Th.ese charges were made against you and filially you were reduced to the red grade? A. I was in the red grade when I. got some of them; T w^^as reduced for schooling. 719 ' Q. While you were in the red gmde then you were punisihed? A. Yes, sir. Q. In tbe manner thut you have 'Sita.ted; before you were pun- ished, did you receive wriitten^ noti<>es that you must improve in your conduct, or you would be punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did yon receive more than one such notice? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you remeanber how nuany. notices of that kind you I'ecelved before you were paddled? A. No, sir. Q. I am requested to ask you what there was about your being accused of fraiid in your work? A. I had a task of gentlemen's umbrellas. Q. Do you know how many? A. I think twenty -seven gentle- men's; I lam not sure. Q. What was there about it? A. I took the handles off the gentlemen'is and put them' on the ladies. Q. Wh'at did you do that foe? A. To square my work; you had to put more ladies' out than you did gentlemeni'is. Q. You lifted handles? A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. In wha,t way were you punished for that? A. Eeport. Q; Have you been punished here at this prison? A. Yes. Q. What for ? A. One for taldng a delnsion. Q. What do yoiu mean by that? A. Running out in bare skin. Q. How were you punished? A. Five days in jaU. Q. Chained? A. No, sir. * Q. Bread and water? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wh^t is your employment here? A. Enameling. Q. Have any trouble in performing your task ? A. I have never been punished for my task; I always done it. William Clark, being duly sworn, testified : Examined by Judge Grilberb: The ehairmah made the same statement to this witness' as to the former witnesses. Q. You* have been in the Elmira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. When were you sent/there? A. In 1890. Q. What for? A. Burglary. Q. From what place? A. Albany. Q. Was that your first, offense? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your age? A. Sixteen. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. I had to plead guilty. Q. Why? A. The thing was found on me. Q. While you were in the reformatory were you punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times? A. I should think about seventy times. Q. I don't mean how many blows, but how many different times? A. Just a;boiut seventy timjes. 720 Q. How long were yooi in the reformatory? A. Something over two years. Q. How often were you taken to the bath-room and punished? A. I was paddled some months three times; some months four times; I hardly ever skipped a month 1 wasn't punished. Q. How many blows were you eitruck at a time? A. Different amounts. Q. The greatest number at one time? A. Twenty-four. Q. How many times did you receive twenty -four blows? A. Once. Q. About what was the number of blows you received the other times? A. From seven to ten and twelve. Q. Ever struck on any other part of your body except your back? A. Yes; struck my face; kicked my face; throwed on my face on the floor. Q. Were you ever strunn- up? A. No, sir. Q. IJo^' many times were you struck in the face or over the head? A. Dozens of times; I had to hold my' head that way; he would hit me and I would turn my head that way, then I would catch the strap around my head; I would say: "Mr. Brock- way, please stop; " and he would give me anothei- harder one, and he would say : " That is my name." Q. What would you say further? A. I couldn't do nothing further, only hoUer. Q. Did you cry? A. Sure. Q. Beg? A. Yes, sir. (i. Promise to do better? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you would turn your head for the purpose of promisi- ing, beggiag, what did you get? A. I got 'the strap around my head, and told to turn my head the other way. Q. After you' promised to do better would the blow^ still con- tinue? A. Yes, sir; until I suppose he thought he had given me enough blows. Q. Why did he say he wsm punishing you ? A. See if I couldn't get along better. Q. What was the trouble with you? A. Eeports. Q. Bepopts for what? A. TalMag and not doamg my task. Q. Were the repoirtls true? A. Half of them were trae; I had a task I couldn't do. Q. What was your task? A. Pipe poliisULng. Q. What kind of pipe? A. Wooden pipea Q. What was ymir ta=k? A. Accoi'ding to different sdae pipes, different task for every size pipe. Q. You say you weire kicked? A. Yes, sir. Q. By whom? A. Mr. Sample. " 721 Q. By any onie elisle? A. Yes, sir. Q. WIlo? a. Keeper Wininiie. Q. Anyone eJtee? A. No, sir. Q. Wluere were yoni wheui yoiu wieipe kicked by Sample? A. In the ba"tih.-rioQm. i Q. Wtere in the barth-woiom, whieitheii standing or lying on the floor? A. I got thiikKwed on the fl.ooin; I -woiuld get paddled soi I coiddti't stand up aaiy longer; I wonld be weak and I would fall down on the floor, and 1 would either get a kick or a wipe side of the head with the isitlr|ap. Q. Then what did yoiu doi? A. They would lift me up and stamd me up 'again and givie me twoi or tthlree moire whiaoksi wjirth the strap and thi-ow me outside the door on my face. Q. Did you ever fainrtJ aiway? A. 'Not, sir. Q. Becomie umconjsciiouisi? A. No, sir; I don't faint away -v^ecj Q. Wha/t do you say abonit the# tlhrowing yooi on youiP flaice? A. Just as isoion as they were ithklough thley wotuid 'run me out of that door and out another one and ishove you on youin face; the man ouitslide takes you and tocksi you up; yoiu get ijp the best way yoai dan. \ Q. Ever leave any mairbsi on you? 'A. Yes^ isilr. Q. Whait marfcsl? A.1 The| niiair|kl f bread a day amdl half a cup of water ; that was my regular diet. Q. The whole time you were there? A. Yes, sir., Q. Weren^t you taken out of the cell during that time? A. Yes, sir; for a bath omly. > i Q. For how long a time? A. About ten or fifteen minutes'; not )ver twenty minutes anyway. Q. Have anything to read while you were there? A. No, sir; lid not; I had nothing to wash myself with. Q. How many bath^ did you have duringi that flffcy-nime days? A.. Seven baths. ' Q. Were you confined in any other cell during the time yota ivere in the reformatory? A. No, sir; I was not. Q. When you were in the cell chained, the solitary, do you mow which tier you were in, whether you were in the tier facing bhe windows of whether you' were in the rear tier? A. I oOuldn't tell; it was darl^ when I went in there; the windows were shut; the man that took me in there had a lanitern.. Q. Was it dark aU the while you were there? A. No, sir; I 30Uld see a little in there, but not very much. Q. Could you tell whether the Minds were closed over those ivindows? A. No, sir; I could not. Q. I understood you to say the ring you were fasltened to was 3ie ring that was fastened to the floor ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did any officer of the prison visit you while you were there? i. Yes, sir; every morning Mr. Sample visited me. Q. Any other officer? A. No, sir. Q. Did the doctor of the prisoni visit you? A. No, sir. 724 By Judge Gilbert: Q. Durinig the fifty-nine days yoiu were in the screen-oell did the doctor visit you? A. No, sii". Q. Did he give you any direction whatever in reference to food? A. Not that I know of. Q. Were you ever in the hospital? A. Yes, sir; I was once in the hospital; I was up there about an hour and a half. Q. What was the trouble ? A. I was in the shop; thjere were big lumpa coming out all over me; I told! the offlcer oni the stalid and I was taken to the hospital and got something to wash myself down wifth and was put in my room. Qr. When you were in the screen-cell flfty-ndne days, I under- stood you to say that during that entire time your food consisted of bread and water once a day? A. Yesi, sh*. Q. What was your actual condition when you came out of the cell at the end of the fifty-nine days? A. I was weaJk and couldn't walk; I couldn't possibly walk half the length of this room myself; half the time 1 twas in) there I couldn't get^out of\, bed; I laid on the bed; I was a skeleton when, I cami' out; aiffcer I came out for three weeks I got toast and coffee. Q. Whci furnished you that, what otlicer? A. Mr. Sample! and sometimes Mr. Murphy; sometimes Spencer; different officers. Q. How many times a day did you receive it? A. Twice a day. Q. In what cell were you then placed'? A. Six hundred and sixty-five. ; Q. One of the regular convict cells? A. Yes, sir; about five cells down. Q. Did you receive any other extra kind of food besides toast ,and coffee? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know under whose directiotn you were furnished that kind of food? A. I do not. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. What time of the year was it that you were confined in the solitary cells? A. Summer time. Q. Are you sure you were not confined in the rest-cure instead of the solitaries? A. No, sir. ' Judge Gilbert. — He says for seven days he was confined in the solitaries, but fifty-nine days he was confined in the screen cell. Q. The record does not show he was confined in the solitaries; you say it was in the summer; what date was it you were con- fined in the solitaries ? A. In July. Q. Can jaa give me an idea of the date, about ? A. About tlie leventh. of July, on Wednesday after the fourth.. Q. What year was it ? A. Eighteen, hundred and ninety-two. Q. Fromj the seventh to the seventeenth of July you were con- iDied in the soliitary cells ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you confined ten days ? A. No, sir; I was confined leven or eight days. Q. Beginning about the 7th of July, 1892 ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you were chained down with both hands ? A. k^es^ sir. , Q. Were you chained to the ring in the floor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did you manage when you came to eat ? A. I had to iquat down. Q. How could you attend to the wants of nature; were you ■eleased to use the bucket ? A. Pull the bucket around. Q. Do you mean to say you were not unchained at all for any )urpose during the seven or eight days ? A. No, sir. Q. Not once during that whole time ? A. No, sir. ,- ■Q. By being chained what do you mean; do you mean the ihacldes were fastened on to' your hand and the chain of the ihackles passed through the ring ? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how long is that chain between the shackles ? A. ibout four or five inches, and the ring takes up that much. Q. Was there a bed in there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And blankets ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Stanchfield: Q. Were both hands chained through this ring at one and the tame time ? A. My hand was in each cuff and a ring run through iie center of the handcuffs. Q. Do you say you could handle a bucket in that jsliape? A. Dhe bucket stood by the side of me. Q. Could you reach out and move it around ? A. Yesi, sir; as 'ar asi I wanted to. By ^T. Litchfield: Q. You could move the bucket with your hand olri with your eet ? A. With my hands. Q. I don't see how your hands fastened in that way yon could nove anything very far from you ? A. It was sitting right down n front of me. Q. It remained right alongside, of you all the time, then ? A. Zes, sir. . ■ By Judge Gilbert: Q. Your feet were not shackled ? A. No, sitr. Q. The chain was attached to the two cuffs or held the two handcuffs together, that chain was passed through the stationary ring in the pmon floor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You could move your hands as far as the length of the chain would permit ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say the bucket was sio placed thait you could get art it and more it under you when you wanted to use it ? A. Set right alongside of me. Q. "What, if anything, do you know with reference to one of the inmates being taken out of the rest cure while you were there sick ? A. Forty-three hundred and fifty-five, Lawlor, died not long ago. ' Q. How long was he kept in the rest cure ? A. Long after I came out. Q. How long was he in there before you went in ? A. Two or three days, I think. Q. And was confined there until after you came here ? A After I came out of the rest cure. Q. Was he transferred to this prison with you ? A. He was tiansfeirred here before me. Q. Is he living ? A. No, sir Q. He died before you came here? A. He died not long ago, a little over a month aigo. Q. Do you know where he was transferred? A. I couldn't posi- tively say. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Are you aware of the fact the record does not show you were ever confined in the solitaries? A Then my record must have been miade over; if my record was coirrect it would show. Q. Descrilbe the cell you say was a solitary; was it a square cell? A. No, sir; threei-oomer cell. By Judge Gilberti: Q. Before you were convicted of the offense for which you were sent to thei reformatoiiy at Elmlra, were you ever convicted of any offen^? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in any prison? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in the house of refuge? A. No, sir. Q. Or in any place of confinement whatever? A. No, sir. Q. Sure? A. I think I was fifty-nine days in Troy. Q. What for? A I had no place to go to. \ -^7 Q. What was your ajge then? A. Sixteen; the aame year. Q. You wiere 16 when you were semt to the reformatoiy? A. Yes. Q. That year you were isent to the house of refuge in Troy? A. No, isir. Q. Wlhat place? A. The jail, I think. Q. Were you sent there as a ragrant or iramp? A. Because I hadn't amy place to go. Q. Hadn't yon been comimiltting- some offense? A. No, sir. Q. Hadn't a complaint iheen made befoire a magistrate or court against you? A. No, sir. Q. Do you siay you never were convicted of any offense before this? A. No, isir; ^never. Q. WMe you were in the reforanatory you were charged with having 'committed iseveral violations of their rules, were you not? A. Yes, isir. Q. It wias cliaLmed you were constantly making misirepresenta- tion in reference to various matters and that you weren't dili- gent, that you were loafing and that you were deficient in military discipline, qtc; isn't that so? A. No, sir. Q. Weren't there complaints made againjst you for that? A. There were complaints made against me. Q. Yooa 'Say they weren't correct? A. They wasn't correct. Q. You were charged with telling stories and lying? A., How did they kno\^' whether I was lying or not; I am second lieuten- ant; I am a convict; I give you a report; I will give you a report; I Willi send you that report back. Q. While I was examining you a moment ago I said I would refer to your grade; how long did you remain in the middle grade before you dhanged? A. About a month, I think. Q. To which grade were you changed? A. Lower grade. Q. Did you remain in the lower grade untU you were trans- ferred to this prison? A. No, isir; I was in the black suit once. Q. You gained the black-suit grade? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you remain in that grade 'before you were sent back? A. A month. Q. Then you lost your grade? A. Yes, sir. Q. And was in that grade when you were transferred to this piison? A. Yefe, sir. Q. During the time you were in the reformatory were you fre- quently taken to the bath-room land admonished by Mr. Brock- way? A. Yes, sir. Q. Bieiquested to do better? A. I didn't get much request to do better; I got taken down there. 728 Q. Weren't you taken tJiere at different times and admomaihed and not punished? A. I don't know as I was; yes; once. Q. Weren't you taken to the bath-room and admonished as many as nine times? A. No, sir; I was not. Q. You insdst upon it yon were only tlakeaa itiheire once wtiien yon wieme admonishjed and no'ti puniisihed? A. Yeis^ sir. Q. Do yon eitdU inislilsifc levery time you. were t'aken to the batih- TOom except that one time ymi wei-e punished? A. Yes, siir; I was punished. Q. Wereu't you aiccu^edl of writing obsicene niotesi? A. No, siir. Q. Do you know what you wei'e sent here for; why you were titanisifenned to this prilsioin? A. I do not. Q. Weren't you accused of the offense of sodomy before you oamie here? A. Yes, sdlr; I wias. Q. Do you know whjo' your accuisei* was? A. I dtoi not. Q. Weren''t you infotnned by isomie omie what Mb name waisi; was Doawxvan the nanae? A. No, sir. Q. WhM was ithe name? A. L\"nch. Q. Who told you it wiaia Lynoh? A. Superikiitiendleiut) Brockwiay. Q. Did you see Mr. Brockway in reference to the charge before you were fctiansif erred? A. I did; yeisj, sir. Q. Did you go befoire him lat amy paintjicuiLair: pjla«e or did he oome to your cell ? A. He caniie ta> my oeli. Q. Wh.o was with him? A. Nobody. Q. Whlait did he say to you? A. Asikedl me if I was going to tieii the tmtih; I told hiimi I hiad no truth tio> tel. Q. Truth about whaA? A. The buisiniesis thiajt a loti of people wiei'e in for; he siaid if I didn't tiell the ttrultlh hie would take me to the battih-room. y Q. Was it true thait you wetpe gulfty of stoidomy? A. No, sir. Q. Were you taken before the offlcansi ca> any of thle offlcetps to be exaiminfad in nefereooicie to it? A. No^ sir. Q. Or did you go before the couint-mlajrttial? A. No., sir; I did molt. Q. Weire any stiajteanienits made agaihHt you by anyone im your hJearLnig oir preisemce? A. No, isir; not thati I kniow of. , Q. The only one thlait spoke to you about it oir rttold you of whB,t you wepe aoouisied o(r by whom' you were aioouisied wasi Mr. Brock- way? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are you sure of that? A. Yes^ sir. Q. What evidence did IVEr. Bittckway stay Ue hiad aigainst you showing your guilt? A. He said he had tihe olther man'si word for it; I told him tbe otthier man's word was noi good. Q. Whiait did he isay tihe other mamfe name was? A. Lynidh. 729 Q. Weren't yiotui aioctiisiedl of tte Gommiiislsliioia of Uhle offlenisle of sodlofmy wltih, a mian hj ihe niaime of Doiwwani in 'the, j^ansiagewlay leading firotm. itihe bufflng-irootmi aisi iitl is ciailed to (tihie elteamiing-rooin im ihB pij)iel shpp? A. No^ laLr; I wiaisi not Q. Did you w(^rk in the pipe sliop ? A. I did; yes. Q". Didn't you know you were accused of h.aving committed that offenise in that pksaageway ?^ A. No, sir; I did not. Q. With tliis man, Dono'van ? A. JSTo, sir. Q. You knew Donovan ? A. Yes, sir; worker! with Donovan. Q. Was he your room-mate ? A. No, sir. Q. Don't you know you got a written report for that ? A. I got reports for so i^any things I don't remember. Q. Was that tmie tliat you did have that improper relation with Dbnovan ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know where Donovan is now ? A. I do not know where he is. Q. He wasn't one of tlie prisoners that was transferred ? A. I don't think he was. Q. While you were in the reformatory you were quite mischiev- ous, weren't you ? A. No, sir; 1 was not. Q. Tried to do the best you could ? A. I did. ■ Q. Tried to obey the rules ? A. Yets, sir. Q. Tried to do your task ? A Yes, sir. Q. Oan you expMn why it was you were confined in the screen ceU so long ? A. Because I couldn't do my task. Q. Didn't the oflicers tell you from time to time if you would p( rfomi your task that you would be released ? A. The foreman saw I couldn't do the task and told Colonel Halpin, and says, " Clark can't do his task;" he says, " The other men can do their task, and if they can do it he can do it." Q. Did you tell the offlcer that had, you in charge that if they woxdd let you try you would try and do your task ? A. Yes, sir; I did. Eecesis. AFTEENOON SESSION. James C. Stout, being duly sworn, testified : Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Are you the warden of the Auburn State prison ? A. Yes, sii*. Q. How long have you been holding that position ? A. Siace May 1, 1893. 92 7S0 Q. Were you connected with, the prison before that time ? A. Not at all. Q. Since you have been warden of this prison have any of the prisoners been transferred from the Elmira reformatory to the Auburn Staite prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many ? A. Fifty; I think the record will show. Q. What authority, if any, is delivered to you authorizing you to receive those prisoners ? A. I receive my authority from General Lathrop, Superintendent of Prisons. Q. Is there any document or warrant of commitment, or any- thing of that kind, forwarded to you or to the clerk of this county fiom the Elmira reformatory authorities ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Directing you to receive or authorizing you to receive prison- ers from that institution ? A. I wUl' have my clerk produce the papers. Q. All documents and everything relating to those transfers, so far as you know, are eithef in the hands of the clerk of the prison or the county clerk? A. All that have ever been received at the prison are in the hands of my clerk; I know nothing of what is in the hands of the county clerk. j Q. Since you have been in charge of this prison what is the character or nature of the discipline to which the inmates are subjected; do you inflict corporal punishment in any way? A. My principal keeper has entire charge of that; I would rather you would call him ; I hold him responsible for the discipline. Q. What are principal trades or branches of employment or manufacture carried on here at this prison? A. Brooms, horse- collars; we have a wood- working department in which we manu- facture different kinds of woodwork, bath-tubs, water-closets seats and covers, and general branches of woodwork; we have a fur- niture factory, hoUowi-ware plant; that is about all; the other industries burned down before I came here. Q. Have you anything to say definitely in reference to whether the prison is now self-sustaining? A. It is not this year, sir, as our industries burned down we had no earnings.. Q. The short length of time you have been in charge you are unable to state anything definite? A. Yes, sir; I will say this, several industries were burned down just before I came here; that, of course, cripples our industries and cuts off our earning capacity. John W. McKnight, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge GilbCTt: Q. Do you hold an official position connected with -the Auburn State prison? A. I am clerk of the prison. 731 Q. Fop what length, of time have you been clerk? A. Will be two years in March, I think. Q. During that tune, on different occasions, hare prisoners been transferred from, the Elmira reformatoiy to this prison? A. There have. ; Q. Will you state what documents, if any, accompany the trans- feips, and wha.t recoird, if any, is made here or anywhere els^ so far as you know, relating to those transfers? ' A. Well, prior to August of laeit year I don't think the document accompanying th.e transfers came into my hands; I think they went to the warden of the prison, the commitments in regard to each prisoner were given to me, and they weire entered • on the books asi com- mitments, giving the time, description, name and' so on; during the month of August of last year 1 think there was ai transfter of fifty ; we had a notice of the transfer of fifty, twenty-four of which came at one time, twenty-four at another, and two have not yet been received. '' ] Q. (Presenting same.) Examine that document and see if that WHJS delivered to you about that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is that document? A. We would call that a notice from the superintendent of the Eknira reformatory and of the transfer made, giving the names of the convicts' transferred, and/ with them there should go, and ^perhap^ did, a list of the names|, giving more definitely the reasons for their being sent here; I think I had with each one of these a list of the names other than thia. Q. You think, in addition to the list of names specified in the document now in your hand that there was another list, and connected with the names of each were stated more particulars relating to the reasons why the transfer was made? A. I think so. Q. Can youl produce that document accompanying this; that is bearing date August 17, 1893? A. Yes, sir. Judge GUbtert. — We wiU offer that in evidence. The following is a copy of the same. Elmira, N. Y., August 17, 1893. James 0. Stout, Esq., Agent and Warden, State Prison, Auburn, N. Y.: Dear Sir. — In accordance with the authorization of the Superin- tendent of State Prisons, and in pursuance to an order of the board of managers of this reformatory made at their meeting on the fifteenth instant, we transfer to your prison toKlay, in charge of Assistant Transfer OflScer Patrick McLaughlin, fourteen pris- onena, as follows: 2588, Frederick Jonea 4622, Patrick Flah.erty (attempt to escape). T32 4683, Patrick Sullivaii. 4794, John Herboldt, 4821, Charles McKeever. 5142, Frederick C. HUl. 5397, Jacob Emgels (attempt to escajK?). 5457, Joseph Dimintra 5639, Harry King. 5646, Frank Woods. 5642, Wm. B. Straits. 5737, Wm. T. Simonson (attempt to escape). 5769, Harry Henneasy. 6024, James McTadge. Inclosed please find copy of the resolution of the hoard of managera directing the transfer of these prisoners, the permit of the Superintendent of State Prisons for their tmmsfer having been forwarded to Autoum with the transfer last week. The afladavits of the attempts to escape, together with the Btatement of any moneys deposited to theiir credit on enibrance here with a check to cover the same wiU be forwarded to you with the twelve other prisoners to -complete tjhe fifty, authorized in a few days. ' Yours truly. Z. Bl. BKOCKWAY. I indose aflQdavits of attempts to escape made by 5045, Joseph Johnson; 5397, Jacob Engels; 4622, Patrick Flaherty; and 5546, John Savercool, who were includ'ed in the previous rnstailments of this transfer. There sitill remains of the fifty authorized, a balance of two men, whom we expect to send to you islhortiy. Yours truly. Z. E. BROCKWAJT, General Superintendent. At a meeting of the board of managers of the New York State Reformatory, held this day, the 15th of Auguisit, 1893, present: Managers — Dr. Wm. 0. Wey, Hon. Jas. B. Bathbonie, Hon. W. H. Peters, Hon. Ben. L. Swartwood. It was resolved that, consent having been obtained' from the Superintendent of State Prisons, and, in accordanioe with the p^o^ vision of chapter 711, section 11, Laws of 1887, the general super- intendent is hereby directed to temporarily transfer to State prison, the following named fourteen prisoners: 2588, Frederick Jones. 4622, Patrick FlahCTty (attempt to escape). 73a 4683, Patrick SuUivaiQ. 4794, John Herboldt. 4821, OharleB MoKeever. 5142, Erederick O. Hill. 5397, Jacob Eingels (atbempt to escape). 5457, Joaepih Dimintro. 5369, Harry King. t 5642, Wm. B. Straits. 5646, Frank Wooids. 5737, "Wm. T. Simomsom (atttempt to escape). 5769, Harry Hemniesisy. ^ 6024, James McTaige. Auburn, N. Y., Novemiber 14, 1893 Statement of the number of deaths, and transferB to the insane asylum from Auburn prison during itihe five (5) fiscal years lajsti past. ! 1 During the year ending October 1, 1889, there wei*e no transfers from the Ebnira reformatory. There were received 368 prisoners, ■ of these tbirty-two died, and forarftleen were transtferred to the insane aisylum, / During the year .enlding October 1, 1890, there were received fifty (50) men from the Elmijra reformatoiy, of thesiel four (4) died, and four (4) were tiransferred to the insane asylum. Received from all other sounces 304, of theise twenty died, and eleven were transferred to the insane asylum. : During the year , ending October 1, 1891, there were received fifty (50) men from tihe Elmira ireformatoiy, of these seven died, and two (2) were transferred to the insane asylum. Beceiived from all other sources 520, of these twenity-seven died, and twenty- tbree were transferred to the insane asylum'. During the year ending Ootoiber 1, 1892, there were received from the Elmira reformatory 100 men, ,of thesie tbree (3) died, and two (2) were transferred to the insane asylum. Eeceived from all otiher sources 385 men, of which ten died, and eighteen were transferred to the insane asylum. During the year ending October 1, 1893, there were received 148 men froni the Elmira reformatory, of these there have been no deaths as yetl, or no transfers to the insane asylum. During this year 281 men were received from all other isouroes, of whicK two (2) have died, and three (3) have b^m transferred to the insane asylum. 794 ' ' Atlbiim, N. Y., NoiTCmber , 1893. STATE OF NEW YOEK, ) Cayuga County. j ' ' John W. McKndglit, clerk of Auburn priBoiii being duly swom^ deposes and says that ifflie several exhibits herewith., are copies of the originals now on file, and form part of the records of the clerk'^ office of Auburn prieotnL ^ J. w. Mcknight, Glerh of Avburn Prison. Subscribed and swara to before me this 14th day of Noveniber, 1893. ' T. H. Murphy, Nota/ry Ptihlic. Q. On or about the 7th of September, 1893, did you receive from Mr. Brockway the document which you hold in your hand ? A. Yes, sir; we received this, I think. Q. It contains a list of names of transferred puiisoners ? A. I luight say in connection with this, we received a commitment. Q. Received a commitment of each man ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Where are those commitments ? A. In the safe. Judge Gilbert. — I offer this in evidence. The following is a copy of the same: Elmira, N. Y., September 7, 1893. Jas. C. Stout, Esq., Agent and Warden, State Prison, Auburn, N. Y. i Bear Sir. — In. accoiTdance with the authorization of the Super intendent of State Prisons, and pursuance to an order of the board of managers of this reformatory, made on the sixth inst., we transfer to your piison to-day, in charge of Transfetr Officer Hugh B. Brockway, ten. prisoners, as follows: 3fi2.'i, Joseph Bloom (attempt to escape). 0929, Clarence 5Iurch. ' 4768, John McOormack. 4820, James Williams. 5233, Albert Smith. 5429, John Creighton, Jr. (attempt to escajye). 5486, John 0. Caimey. 5610, Alfred Wateirs. 5682, James Flannagan. 6001, Benj. W. Sco*t. 736 Enclosed please find copy of the order of the board of managers directing the tranisfer of these prisoner's; the permdt of the Super- intendent .of State Prisons for their transfer wasi foiiwarded to All bum with a transfer of twenty-four men on August eighth. Elmira, N. Y., September 6, 1893. COPY OF ORDER OF BOARD OF MAJSTAGERS. The supeilntendent is hereby directed to transfefn to Auburn State prison the following men: 3625, Bloom. 5682, Flannagain. 4768, McOormack. 3929, Murch. 4820, Williams. . 5238, Smith. 5486, Carney. 5610, Waters. 6001, Scott. 5429, Oreighton. (Signed.) JAS. B. RATHBONE, M. H. ARNOT, WM. H. PETERS, WM. C. WEY, Pres%wing tJiey had been tramstferrred or by what anthoirity th.ey had been tnansferired from the refonnatory to this prison? A. Your question embraces so far ais the clerk is concerned? Q. Yes; so far las you know? A. I don't know «f any other docnmlent. Q. Is it your duity, as clerk, to receire .the dooumemtsi, oommit- menita or whatever authority is given by the .court, or by any other authority tha)t'iis directing you or authjoiizinig you to hold a prisonei' from any quaipteir; is that doicument deliviered, or record (Mivered to you, is it part of your duty aisol'eirk of the prison to receive it and take pro^xT charge of it? A. Well, I might aniSAver that by saying I assimite it is; all prisoneiis isent here; all commitlments and ;bll ipa.peiris laroompanying prisionens sent here aire left at the clci-k's office, and, of couiisie, we li;ive to look over the cammituirnte and figure the time as to commutiaition, and see whether t.liey go out. during th^ montliH presicribed by law, and if mat oon-ect we might notify the coiurt, and aisi ouir office keeps all the pj-iwon records, I presume or assumie, we ishould have full knofw'ledge of the papers. Q. Have you ever reccivt^d from the Elmirai refoTOiaitoiy oir i)tia officials any docunit^mt puii'[)oa'ting to be an authorizartion by or from the board of manaigenwiit, and frran Mr. Brockway direicttng you to i^cei^'c^ and hold in ciisilTjdy the jKrisoneiis from, the reforma- tory prior to .Vugust. 17, IS!*:;? A. I don't think that I have. Q. Havr^ you Itecn requested l>y am- memiber of the State Board of nharities or l>y its siecr-(^iaTy to examine yoiua' reoordsi to see if you have any niemorandimi, or note or record showing that you had received an\' such authority froui the refoffmatory officials pilioii to August 17, 1893? A. I have not. Q. Have you inadie any sncli. examination? A. I Ihaive endeavored to see if there v\'iais any papers c»f that character on file in the office, and I fail to find anATthing^ oif the kind; T might say that I said there was a memorandimi accompianying the com- mitment of each man stating why he was sent; this is the miemiarandum; thia, together ^ith the commitmient, is the only dooument I have ever received. Q. (51r. Stanchfield.) Don't you get the authorization from the Superintendent of Prisons ? A. I said prior to August, wet generally got a memopandum of the reasons of the transifer of 737 eajcii mam; iihiat ila as fain las we have any knioiwledge of it ; as to amy aiurftonizatioa, we BeTCir tave hiad it in ihe, clerk's office. Q. The document you last referred to, does tha* relate to the' last transfer of priisoners, or does it refer to all the prisoners? A. I meant to 'be. underotood that dnring the past, year, we have recei'vied forty-eight conivictsi from Elmlna; the paper stajtefl there would he an instailment of fifty authorized to be tnaiisferred, twenty-foTiir of which were sent at one time, eleven at another; there were two ^short of the fifty that hare not been received. Q. This document which you have handed Mr. Stanchfield relates to those, fifty- or forty-eight ? A. Yes, sir. Judge G-iilbert. — I will put that in. The following is a copy of the same: 5688, Lawrence O'Toole, age, 22; received December 24, 1892; grand larceny, second degree; maximum, 5 years; expires Decem- ber 23, 1897. Offenses here. — Being concerned in a conspiracy to refuse to work' in the fotmdrf; reduced to convict grade once, 5546, Savercool, age, 29; received 'October 15, 1892; burglary, third degree; maximum, five years; expires October 14, 189T. Ofiemses here. — ^ Fraud, hiding out and attempt to escape; reduced to convict grade once. '5756, Edward W. Pelkey, age, 18; received January ^ 28, 1893; burglary, third, and gramd larceny, second degree; miEiximum, five years; expires, January 27, 1898. Offenses here. — -Profauity, disturbing hall, lying, threatening officer, disobedience, attempt to escape, being iconcemed in con- spiracy to refosie tb work in the foundry; redliiced toi cioe&i marked? A. I rather think not, as this inoerpoiPates the fifty that were to be sent in August. Judge GiJibent. — I, will offer that. The foUowinig ife a copy of the siame : "At a meeting of the aboard of m'anagem of the New York State Reifoirtmaltoiry, held thiisi day, tihe 7tih of Ajuigust, 1893. iPneslent: Managem W-m. C. Wey, M. H. Aiiiot, James. B. BatlhJbone, Wm. H. Peters. "Resolved, IHia/t consent having been obtained from the Super- intend'ent of State Prisons, and in acoordance with th^ piro visions of section 11, chapter 711, Lawjs of 1887, the general superintend' ent is hereby directed to temporarily transfer to State prison, the following-namied twenty-four prisoners: 4041, Robert Oliffoird. 4087, Jacob Porr. 4222, Michael Meehan.. 4285, Horajce Ruger. 4543, Joseph Bleranett. ■. 4654, William Aiken. 4686, Eugene Reynolds. 4894, Lee Hamilton. 4919, Peter Waaren. 4943, Eiobeirt Farewell. , j 4960, Bruce miie. 5045, Joseph Johnson. 5216, Edward Theall. 5245, Daniel Bicberton. 5522, Benjamin Fields. 5546, John Savereioiol. 5611, Richard Toohey. 5628, PhdUiJ) Reiardton. £^688, Lawrence O'Toole. ^121, John G-regory. 5756, Edwaa:vi Pelkey. 5892, John Lynch. 5893, John Smith. 5999, Joseph Mayebte. W. H. PETERS, Acting Secretary. Q. Is this warrant of committment substamtially like those under which jou have receiyed the forty-eight prisoners that you have refersred to? A. Yes, sir. Judge GrUhert. — I will have that marked. The foUowing is a copy of tibie same: At a court of general sessions of the peace, holden in and for the city and county of Ne^' York at the city hall of said city, on ^londay, the sixth day of February, ini the year of our LoM, one thousand eight hundred and nine;ty-three. Present — The Honorable RufuS B. C5oiwing, city judge of the city of New York, justice of the sessions. The People of .the State of New York againsit Hairtry HJenniesisy, on con\iction by confession of grand larceny in the second degree, goods, etc., of Dwighti Ashley. The court being satisfied that the said, Harry Hennesisy is twenty years of age, and has not been previously convicted and sentenjoed for a fe'lony; wherempotn it is oirdereid and adjudged b} tile comit and the said Hari>- Henniesisy, for the felony aforeh said, whereof he is convicted, be imprisoned in the New York State Reformatory at Elmira, there to be dealt with aocoindinig to law. A true extract from the minutles. JOHN P. CARROLL, Cleric of Court. Description of the offense for which priisoner is convicted, to wit: Indicted for grand larceny, second degree, January 31, 1893; stealing six pieces of silk; value, $240; goods, etc., of D wight Ashley. Where born? A. New York Occupation? A None. Single? A. Yes. Place of residence? A. One hundi^ed and fifty-four Mott street. JOHN F. CARROLL, ' Clerh. 1^ 74a " Eeaolvedl, That whenever, at any time not lees thani six moinths before ttie expiratiioin' of h!ils maximum tenn, the agent and warden of any State pirieoi^ to which inmatesi from the iieifoamatoiry are transfen-ed, shall cefrtify in writing that! any inmate so trans- feired (not having previoueily attempted to escape) has shown improvement warranting the opinion that if released such released inmate will live at liberty without violating the law, then the general superintendent shall retuTn such inmate to the refonna- tory, as provided by law, and at the first managers' meeting thereafter bring said inmate before the mamaigens foir examina- tion and actdoD as to his release." — ^Eiesoiutioni of boki-d of mana- gere of New York State Reformatoay, June 12, 1882. Q. You have' produced, so far as you know, all the original records you have in your oflSce relating tlo transfer of priisooers from the Eilmira reformatory to this prison? A. I have in my offloe a dlokjumetnlt of itlhis aharaoter that goles back to 1891, gwinig the name of the party sent and the crime for which convicted, and the' maximum term, and the offense for which they were sent here. Q. Will you also make a copy of that from 1891 to the time this conmaenoed? A. I only have the one in 1891. Q. You have been here about two yeans? A. Yes, sir. Q. During thati time, or since you have been here, how many piTisoners liave been transferred from the Elmira reformatory? A. I think 150. ^ Q. In each one of those cases have you a record furnished you by the reformatory relating to the offense for which Ae pri'soner was convicted, setting forth the maximum length ^of itSme and the reasons why he has been transferred; is that a memorandum made by you or a memorandum made by the author- ities at Elmira? A. Made by the, authorities at. Elmira. Q. I will call your attention once more to this point7 what authority ;have you to receive and retain in custlody these several prisoners other than you have already given? A. As I understand the duty of a clerk of a prison, so far* as receiving convicts, they are brought heire by an officer and he. produces a commitment for each and every man he brings here, leaves it with us, and we figure the commitment to see whether or not the court in sentencing the man has complied with the law, so he goes out in the prescribed limit within certain months of the year with the oommitmeut, and the prisoner, we assume it is our duty to receive him, enter him on the books and turn him over to the principal keeper. Q. How is it in those cases where the term is not fixed by the court, but you are directed by the commitment to keep in custody 744 the prisonei" the full maximum tenn fixed by statute ? A. We have no other guide other tlian th.e couunitment, and the indorse- ment made on the commitment that the man's term is five yeansi maximum or ten years ma.ximum. Q. Supposing the man is sentenced, as in this case, he is seat to the reformatory and is trajisferred from the reformatory to this pilison, and the maximum term of imprisonment for the ofEenaie charged is, we will say, five yeara; how are you enabled or by| what authority are you authorized or permitted to discharge thatt prifionei* during that poi-tion of the yea)ii T\hich the statute declares that a court shall sentence a prisoner, so that his tei-m of imprison- ment shall expii-e during a certain portion of the year; how do you mamage in a cajse Avhere there is no such time fixed by the sentence ? A. I shall Jjave to concede I am not acquainted with the law that gives the right; in speaking to Walrden Durston I found some men, by reason of expiiation of the sentence, was figured they went out in January; I called his attention to it and said I thought we were not allowed to discharge men in January; he said in. all cases from Ehnira, according to statute, they were allowed to do that; all men from Elmira, whenever their terms expired by reason of commutation of sentence, they are disr charged; why that is so I don't know. Q. In that respect the statute differed relating to the prisoners ccmfined at the Elmira reformatory and transfeiu''ed to this' prison from tho!Se cases whei'e prisoners are sentenced directly to State prison ? A. I so undenstand it. JSir. White. — I would like a list of all men from the Ehpiraj* reformatory, transferred, who have died or who have gone insauei, or been specially paroled because they weie ill to such an extent that they thought they could not recover, during the last five yeairs. Mr. Litchfield. — I should think there would be no objection to having that. Mr. Stanchfield. — We want it made complete during the same period of time, all those her-e, irrespective of where they oomie from. Judge Gilbert. — As I understand it, so far as the prosecution are concerned, they make the request just stated; on. the other hand, as I understand it, Mr. Stanchfield, you request the. clerk to make a complete list of all those who have died, gone iu'Siane or have been discharged by special commutation during Urn same period of time. The witness. — That carries with it a great deal of work. If theme has been any man discharged from prison from the fact their health was failing, the doctor thought they ought to be discharged. 74S tliat nepont would be made to the Governor and request would be made by the Governor on the warden to give a Mstoiy of the man making application for discharge^ and among the quesitions asked is as to his health; that is referred to the physician who, after he makes his irleply, stating sometimes that the man isi. in bad health and sometimes in good health, sometimesi isuffering from pulmlo- nary affections, he follows that out. We send that to AJbany and keep no record of it. We don't say he is discharged because of ill-health; we simply say because he is discharged by commutation of sentence on such a day. We don't know why, whether he is discharged because of Dl-health or what. I can tell you how many men have died. Q. And how many have been sent to tihe ikusame asylum? A. Yes; and how many have 'been discharged by commutatioii; I couldn't say whether they were dfijsdharged by reason of amy ailmenit. . | , Q. Oan you furnish the date whein thoise who died or went inisiaaie oame in here? A. Ye^ mr. Q. Is there any record to show v/imb they were ill, with? A. Oh, yea Mr. Sbanohfl.'eld.— I We would like that. Judge GUbert. — -I think Jt would be better to change the request, first a record sfhowing the niunber of deaths, and a record Showing the number that have beootme imlsiane, and thajt recoird win irelaite to ithose that have been traaslfeimed tlo this prison from Ehnira, while the necord ;iiequesltedl by Mr. Stanichfiield will refer to :all prijsomersi ireceived from! all isotunoesL The witness. — If you want the recoird for the past five yeaans it is quite a task. ^ The following statement was submiitted by Jamies C. Shaw, the principal keeper: Eecolrd of punishmenibs in Aulbuam pnilsoii, from, Septtietmber 30, 1891 to October 1, 1893: • i Index of Months. Pages. October, 1891 '■ 1, 2 Novemlber, 1891 2, 3 December, 1891 3, 4 Jiapuary, 1892 4> 5, 6 Fle(boraary, 1892 ,....,.. 6,j 7, 8 March, 1892 '■ •■ 8, 9 April, 1892 9, 10 May, 1892 10' 11 June, 1892 H 94 746 Pages, July, 1892 11,12 AuigUiSti, 1892 .' 12, 13 September, 1892 13, 14 October, 1892 14 Novembeir, 1892 15 December, 1892 15, 16 Jiamuary, 1893 16, 17 Feibraiatry], 1893 17, 18 MaJicb., 1893 18, 19 Apfffl, 1893 1 19 May, 1893 ' 19,20 Jvme, 1893 20,21 July, 1893 21 Auigusit, 1893 21 Septemiber, 1893 22 Record of punishment in Auburn prison froim. September 30 to October 1, 1893: , \ j 1 QQ1 t Nights In j.Oi7±. sci'eencell. Oct. 5. William Nolan, 22179, quarreling 3 Li. Frank Kelly, 22154, insolence 4 7. Benj. Eosentbal, 211o4, quarreling 4 8. Philip Hymenson, 22321, talking in uiess room, 2 8. Albert Jolivet, 22234, disorderly and talking in line 3 10. Henry Washington, 21780, talking in cell and disobedience 4 10. James Jackson, 22235, disobedience 4 14. Wm. Meehan, 22103, disobedience 2 14. Wm. Hayden, 22149, disobedience 2 15. Geo. W. Hermann, 22396, talk in shop , . . 3 15. John Grallagher, 22183, disobedience .*. . 2 16. Geo. Reppert, 22413, quarreling 4 20. John Dunn, 20498, quarreling 3 20. Thomas Gallagher, 22020, quarreling 3 20. John Farley, 21882, quarreUng 4 21. J. S. Williams, 22124, fighting 5 22. Chas. Smith, 20861, disobedience 2 22. Henry B. Olsen, 21769, talking in line 2 22. Joseph Eomain, 22162, talldng in line 2 24. Franli Ward, 22172, quarreling 4 24. Matthias Willing, 22500, disobedience 3 24. Patrick Burns, 21992, talking in shop 3 747 1891. NigBtsln " • screen cell. Oct. 21. Joeepli Cosgrove, 22383, talking in cell 3 27. Thomas Grallagher, 22020, disobedience 5 29. Wm. O'Brien, 22246, disobedience 3 29. Geo. Reppert, 22413, quairreling 4 31. Leon Connor, 22441, talking in shop 3 Nov. 2. AaTon Kahn, 22237, taikiag, in -shop 3 3. Andiew Clark, 21939, refusal to work 3 7. John Erown, 22305, insolence 4 9. Chas. Nathan, 21944, refusal to work and insolence . , 6 9. John Rebham, 21472, talking in cell 4 9. Peter McGurley, 22330, fighting 4 9. John Ryan, 21392, fighting 4 9. Lawrence Cardineir, 21174, fighting 4 9. Ed. Goutremont, 21592, fighting 4 9. John Gibbons, 22229, stealing 4 9. Aug. Maas, 21325, short and bad work 3 12. John Moore, , 21916, fighting 5 12. Wade Pollard, 21943, fighting ' . 3 12. Geo. Reppert, 22413, refusal to work 4 12. Aaron Sowles, 21974, stealing 5 16. John Welch, 22354, refusal to work 4 17. Ed. Hall, 21584, imsolenoe 3 17. George Mullen, 21118, fighting '. 3 18. Frank Bruck, 22380, qnarrelinig 4 18. F. Drisooll, 21892, shoiiti and bad work 4 19. Ed. Mosely, 21765, imsolence 3 19. Irving Hndisiomi, 21752, refusal toi work 5 23. Jacob Lindengtein, 21761, short and bad work. . 4 23. Pedro Brambetto, 22072, talking in meiss-rooim, 2 24. Samuel Gilmore, 22468, talking in shop 2 24., Joseph Doyle, 21435, quarreling 3 27. Joseph Rowe, 21873, insolence ,3 27. James Hogan, 22151, noise in cell and shams insanity 3 28. Charles Smith, 20861, refusal to work 5 28. Charles Warner, 21905, refusal tO' work 5 28. John Reilly, 21923, refusal to work 5 28. Ed. Fogarty^ 22144, refusal to work 5 28. Aug. Maas, 21325, refusal to work 5 Dec. 1. Wm. O'Brien, 22246, disobedience 4 2. J. H. MuBTay, 21965, disobedience and refusal to work 3 4. John Gibbons, 22229, aissanlting fellow convict, 6 748 I.CQI Nlgbtslu -^ *- •' * ' sareeu cell. Dec. 4. Ckm. SulliTan, 21031, disobedience 4 5. Wayerly WiUiamie, 31860, quamielinig 4 7. Ed. Oanrol, 22457, ^^"aBltiD!g bread 2 7. Tim. Healy, 22092, insolence 4 7. Ed. Weigle, 21778, fighting 4 8. Albert Donmovan, 21547, fighting 4 8. Danl. Wagner, 20713, fighting 4 8. John Gallagher, 22180, wastiiQg bread 4 11. B. Eosenthal, 21134, quarreling 2 12. Geo. Simpson, 21716, talking 3 15. Alfred Hooper, 22233, fighting 5 15. J. Dougherty, 21881, short work , 4 15. Chas, Schultz, 21973, disobedience 3 15. John Kirk, 21107, insolence 4 17. Geo. Reppert, 22413, insolence 3 17. Joseph Smith, 22554, noise ajid shams insanity, 6 21. John Bland, 21742, refusal to work 2 22. Saml. Williams, 219(58, fighting ■ 3 '22. Joseph Goats, 22311, fighting 3 22. John Gain, 22576, talking ^ 2 22. W. Smith, 22615, short work 2 22. Ghas. (J!urcio, 22384, short work 3 22. Fred. Mayer, 22323, short work 2 22. O. Schultz, 22168, jShort woirk 3 22. Luigi Gariano, 22145, short work 3 22. John Hazard, 22231, talking 2 2(1. John Lemp, 21450, noise in cell 2 2(1. Thos. Strowbridge, 21802, noise in cell 2 28. Frank Murphy, 22102, fighting 5 28. Luigi Gariano, 22145, refusal to work 3 28. John Brown, 22812, disobedience 3 28. John miey, 21924, ioisolence ajid baxi work. . 3 30. Chajs. Waomar, 21935, insolence , 3 30. Bock Kildhue, 22448, fightinig 3 1892. Jan. 1. Ed. O'Oonnoir, 21480, quarneiitag 3 1. John Geier, 22146, quarreling 3 2. Geo. Andepsom, 22272, talking 2 2. John Murphy, 22320, refusal to work 3 2. Wm. Began, 22487, refusal to work 6 2. Chas. Miller, 21623, refusal to work 4 . 2. Joseph GUlette, 22394, talking , 3 4. Geo. Sullivanoi, 20864, dapiobedience 3 4. John Hall, 21642, fighting 4 749 1 892 N'Biits m ■i.wv««. screen cell. Jan. 5. G-eorge Byani, 21952, telMng aaiid! dilsioibte'dieiice. . 3 6. H. Hjairtman, 22018, quarreling 3 6. W. O'Brien, 22246, flgbting '....'. 6 6. G-abriel Sachs, 21853, fighting ' 6 7. Geo. Funnell, 22496, talking 2 12. Jos. Martin, 22035, fighting 3 12. John Somers, 21605, fighting 3 12. Ohas. Yafeel, , 22499, flghtihg 5 12. 0. Hickey, 22474, fighting 5 12. Fred. Preston, 21589, disotoedienee 2 13. Frank Callahan, 21891, talking 3 14. Thois. M. Cowaai, 20882, quarreling 3 14. Geo. H. KJane, 21981, disoihedience 3 14. W. S. Eiussell, 22535, talking 2 14. Riciuaird Barry, 20818, fighting .' 3 14. Theanais Doraien, 21434, fighttog 3 17. Archit). Leslie, 22568, stealing 4 18. Thomais West, 22117, quarreling 3 ' 18. Frank Kdly, 22154, fighting 4 19. Paul Friewald, 22531, bad work . . ; 5 19. Herbert Bradshaw, 21700, refusal to work. ... 5 19. John Smith, 21513, short work 3 20. Wade Pollard, 21943, refusal to'work 3 20. John O'Nieil, 22308, refiusal' tioi work. 4 20. A. Rysidyke, 22414, diteiobedienice and insolemcei, 4 21. Ed. SteTODB, 2065O, rrfuislal ttai woirk. 2 22. Stephen: Ricktei, 22107, disoibedieMce ' 2 22. Aanon Sowls, 21974, shoiti work 3 23. John Bedlly, 21924, diilsiobeidtiieiiDcei 4 23. Ohiais. Warner, 21935, diilsobeditetnic'e. '. 4 23. Ed. Fogaa^ty, 22087-, diteoibtedienice 3 23. Thos. Gallaighter, 22020, telkihg in slhJop 4 25. Jam'eis Fainey, 22057, shtoirt woirk 4 25. Thiosi. Qultom, 22664, ishlo^it work 4 27. John MuU%an:, 21071, fighltibg 6 27. G-eo. WilsODi, 21597, figWttIng 6 27. Ed. Bniindle, 22214, refusial tloi wioirk 6 29. Wml. Weaitoni, 22051, disobfediienice 3 29. Fr^nk Atkins, 21527, esoape from b^myaird. . 6 30. Ghartes Hacisbii, 21342 dilsobedlfenice! and inisolanioe .\ 3 Feb. 2. Josieiph Doyle, 20131, disabiedienicie and Aam sicknieisis 4 2. Jaa Walsh, 22120, qulairneilnig 4 750 -I or 9 Nights In -to ^- screen cell. Feb. 2. Jolm Rudolph, 22553, quaareling 4 4. Jno. Brown, 20324, quameliing 3 4. Jacob Swears, 21759, quarrdiiiig 3 4. JoisephJ PalmeP, 22058, fighting 3 5. Joihn Pureell, 21922, figihtliinig 4 6. Joseph Eomam, 22162, bad work' 4 6. Henrv Hnlsanan, 22230, refusail to wotrk 3 7. Dennisi Maione, 22033, bad work 3 7. Ananias Rysdyke, 22214, quarreiling 3 8. A. JoliTOt, 22234, fi.gh«ng 5 10. A. Lawson, 21427, figh{ting 3 11. Ed. aamcan, 21783, flgihitjinig 6 11. Saml. Williams^ 21968, quaTneiiiiig 3 11. Timothy Healy, 22092, fighting 4 11. John Farley, 21882, fightiinig' 3 12. James Coyne, ^2217, stealinig 4 12. Geo. H. brew, 22586, stealing 3 12. John Brown, 22305, insolence 4 13. Edward HnU, 21584, quarreling 3 13. Thm. Smith, 22198, Aort aM bad work 3 13. James Goggins, 21902, fighting 4 15. Thos. Consin, 22506, talk in ishop 3 16. James Keegan, 22656, tiallt in shop 3 19. James Thompson, 22049, insiolencie 4 19. John Piepson, 22611, short work 4 20. John O'Neil, 22001, refusal to work 7 20. Robt. Cliristie, 22079, quaimeling 4 20. GkK). H. ( 'rane, 21981, short work 4 22. Stephen Flyim., 22590, short work 4 23. Joseph ^Vilson, 20536, refusal to work and sham insanity 4 24. Wav. Williajiis, 21860, insolence 3 25. H. Washington, 21780, reading newspapers in ranks 2 25. Wade H. Gollard, 21943, insolent threats and assault with knife 11 25. Frank Barney, 21897, fighting 6 26. Thos. Quinn, 22664, short work 7 26. Jacob Sin eay, 21759, disobedience 5 27. Richd. Fitzgerald, 21568, short work 4 27. Frank Kelly, 22154, disorderly conduct 4 27. Con. Sullivan, 21031, stealing 3 28. A. Hungerford, 22512, talk in cell and bad work, 4 Mch. 1. Chas. Reilly, 20044, disobedience 5 751 1 899 Nights m ^°o£i. screen cell. Mar. 1. A. Ryiadyke, 22414, insolence and threats to foreman 4 5. NicholaiS Steinmetz, 21926, talk in ranks 3 5. Joseph. Coats, 22311, disobedience' 3 5. John Gillespie, 22467, disobedience 3 5. Ohae. Diiyden, 21518, quaiTelin,g 3 5. Wm. Eussell, 22535, disobedience 2 8. Chas. White, 22052, insolence and disobedience, 3 8. Michael Lyons, 22239, insolence and fighting . . 5 9. John Bland, 21742, short work 3 9. Emile Schmidt, 22616, quarreling 3 9. Joseph Wyn,n, 22426, quarreling 3 11. Patrick Merkell, 21385, insolemcie aaid sihlort work 5 11. James O'Connor, 20908, insolence and short work 3 13. Joseph Smith, 22554, stealing 3 13. Michael Manion, 21291, quairreling i 4 13. Henry Hayward, 21903, quarreling 4 13. John, Brady, 22213, quarreling 3 14. Wm. Brown, 22012, breaking ranks and disobedi- ence 3 14. Oo.niieliuis Adamsioin, 22207, bireiakimg panks: and disobedience , . 3 16. Jas. Sutherlaud, 21615, insolence and bad work, 2 17. Phil. Hyjuenson, 22321, disobedience 2 17. Aloise Fisher, 22643, quarreling 3 17. Barney Franks, 21S97, fighting .8 21. ITios. Hallett, 22676, insolence and threats to olfioers 6 22. Harry Young, 22536, talk in shop and insolence to officer i 24. Paul Smith, 21931, talk in shop 3 24. W. D. Pierce, 22339, talk in ranks 3 24. Mat. Brennen, 22576, talk in ranlos 3 24. John Willard, 21211, short work 3 24. Dennis Malone, 22033, short and bad work .... 6 24. John Kirk, 21107, fighting 5 26. Wm. Downing, 22691, refusal to work 3 26. Wm. Watson, 22173, stealing 3 26. Ohas. Ackert, 22574, talk in shop 3 28. G. Hamilton, 21487, disobedience and insolence, 3 29. Jas. Daley, 22373, quarreling 3 Ajvril 1. Wm. Edwards, 22313, disobedience 2 752 1 .,09. Nights In -*■ ^ *■ screen cell. April 1. IrA-ing Hudsoii, 21752, refusal to work 4 4. Michael Manion', 21291, threats and insoileiice to foreman 3 5. Cod. Sullivan, 21031, fighting 5 5. II. Gilmore, 22593, fighting 2 5. Framls; Scott, 22421, flgfhitang 2 6. Arnold Weiss, 22174, inHolence 3 7. Danl. Ining, 21531, refusal to work 2 . 7. John Purcell, 21922, fighting 5 11. Ohajries Eowe, 22341, breaking pattleirms 3 12. John Shoe, 22111, fighting 2 12. Geo. Young, 22349, fighting 2 13. Peter M. Quinkey, 22336, sham insanity 4 1 4. Wm. jSmier, 21070, fighting 3 14. LeoM Shertman^ 21598, refusal to work 3 14. Joseph Brown:, 22133, fighting 3 15. Wm. Butler, 22009, quarreling 2 1.^. Jas. Sutherland, 21615, fighting 3 15. Franlv Driscoll, 21892, fighting 3 16. Harry Lester, 22400, fighting 3 18. Eichd. J. Bristol, 21703, refusal tO' work 3 •1?,. John Kelly, 22327. talking in shop and diSh obedtenoe" 3 2:!. Ohas. Nathan, 21944, noise in cell 3 25. Lawrence GaJ^dner, 21174, fighting 3 20. Walter Cahill, 218!)(), insolence to foireman' .... 3 27. Antonio Dominico, 21634, disobedience 4 28. Wm. Fink, 21170, fighting 3 20. Fred. MUler, 22606, fighting 4 29. John Keller, 22509, fighting 4 ^lay 1. Geo. Wilson, 21597, attemj^ted assault on officer- 5 1. Sam'i Smittih, 21857, noise in ceU and insolence to guard 4 1. Fred Ferris, 22540, disfiguring cell 5 5. Patrick Phibbtei, 221 61, fighting 3 5. L. Bergman, 22074, fighting 3 11. Jos. Palmer, 22058, insolence 3 12. John Kelly, 22327, quaa-reling 3 12. Tim Healy, 22092, refusal to work and sham lSticl{(QGSISI .,..., ,. . 5 12. Jacob Coats, 22311, refusal to work and siham sickness 5 19. Cha«. White, 22052, disoibedience' 3 753 1>?92. Nights In screen cell. May 19. Fraaak BmM, 21665, nefuisiail itiol woirk 9 19. W. S. Ru^ll, 22535, diisobedieiice and talk . ., 4 25. Eioib't King,' 21535, refusal to work 4 26. Lawrence O'Briieaii, 22404, fligMimg 3 26. Johxk MTirpky, 22335, flghting 3 26. Cbarleisi Nathjam, 21944, noise in ceiU 6 27. Geo. Hesmdlewsloini, 22650, flgttinig 4 27. A. EyBjdiyke, 22414, figMiiiig 4 31. Thos. HaUiett, 212646, flgMinig 2 31. Joaieph Palmeir, 22058, disOibeidlieiicei amd linso- lenice , 5 Jnne 1. Wadie Pollard, 21943, strikimg keelper . . . . .|. . . 4 2. W. Sniltli, 22615, fighting 3 2. A. Fisiclier, 22643, fighting 3 3. A. Schultz, 21972, fighting " 2 7. Ohap. Yakei, 22499, fighting |. 3 7. John Johnson, 22545, fighting 4 7. Alfred Hoopei", 22233, short woirik and. talk in shop , i 3 10. Joiseiplh Bruen, 22133, talk and growling ini meSB^ room' ., : 4 16. James Dirennan, 22017, fighting , 3 16. Ohais. Mayette, 20547, fightilng 3 _ 22. John Brogan, 22456, fighting 4 24. James Farley, 22768, fighting • 4 30. Geo. McGowan, 22159, fighting '. |. . 3 30. A. Jolivet, 22234, fighting 3 30. James Kemnedly, 22769, fighting 2 July 1. Ed. Simmons, 22763, fighting 2 1. Ed. Flynn, 22462, refusal to^ work ; 5. Jamels McGinnis, 21580, fighting 4J 5. Joa Jarviis, 21447, fighting 4 5. Jas. Walsh, 22120, fighting 4 5. Joseph BQingeir, 21307, fighting 4 8. Perry, OMyelii O., 22738, insolenlce anid thireaitls! td offi'oeiil ....I .] 9 8. Vito CaiBbOi, 22137, refuBlal tioi wotrki 7 11. Edwd. Mynn, 22462, refusial tlo work 3 11. Wm. Freeman, 22279, refusial tb work 8 18. Frank Duffy, 22224, fightatag 3 21. Johnl Lawiloai, 22771, qnaTtelinlg 3 21. John Comisikey, 22788, qnajrineHing 8 22. Altfined Hooper^ 22233, quiajpreilDig 2 22. Wm- -Gunini, 22393, shjoi* and Wad work . 4 »5 1 754 1 QQQ Nights In xot7i, screen cell. July 22. Alfred Poppiart^ 22551, shofrt aaud bad work. ... 4 26. Joha BTdgam, 22456, shjont woa-k 3 26. Jota Kelljy, 22327, talk ta Aop audi disabedlieiiice, B . 27. Jeremiaih, CoUioiBi, 22140, shoirt) wofk 2 28. A. JoHvet, 22234, short work 3 29. Geo. Witaon, 21597, diisoibedieinicie 3 29. OajTresie Vinaeaizo, 22309, groiwlinlg in mesisHrooim, 7 Aug. 1. CShJaa W. Daney, 22856, refuisal tot work and ishaim. inisaiiity ,. ... 5 2. TLmlotaiy Abbott, 22006, refuBial toi work 2 3. Jno. J. Duam, 20498, flgJitimg 4 5. Jos. PaJmer, 22058, flgMing '. 5 6. Geo. Ungliisik, 22359, sihioipfc work 5 8. Josefph. Eloiinajij, 22162, sbiart work 6 10. Johai McCSabe, 21424, disjoibedience 2 12. John Muirpliy, 22335, shOirt larad bad woirk 2 12. O. W. Davey, 22856, tihireats and ddisolbediieinicie. . 8 13. AbraJham. Keteem, 21908, steaJinig 3 13. Sylban Diana, 22375, steailiinig 3 15. Bemj. Pemberton, 21949, sihoirti work.., 4 17. Ofbto Wendt, 22729, (refusal to work and insoienice to foireimjam 2 17. Joihn Smiitih, 22921, short work 2 19. Edwd. Brindle, 22214, sihiaim. illneislsi 4 19. James Lyncih; 22908, shami ilmieisBi 4 22. Loiuis 'Wil'beirrt, 2275^ stealing 3 23. W. J. BeiUy, 22163, disabedienicie 4 23. Petter McGinithey, stom insamty 10 29. John Nomls, stami altoieisisi 4 30. AjTchib. Leslie, MMng in mnks , 3 30. Mooes Swaintsi, slbJoir* amd bad work 3 Sept. 4. Jais. Harding, 22567, stealing 3 7. Eugenie Koihin, 21907, talk in cell 3 7. Wm. Snydler, 22842, imsdlence , 3 8. Joseph. Zabrfeki, 22539, qiuiainrielinig 3 8. diaiPles Drydeni, 21518, [refusal toi wotPk 2 10. Victor Horej', 21541, fighting 4 HO. David Hart, 21904, fighting 4 10. Moses Swarte, 22926, refusal to work 6 12. Stephen Flynn, 22595, refusal to work 4 12. LawlPence Gaifdner, 21174, fighting 4 12. Michael Hayden, 21176, fighting 4 16. Ckxmelius Walsh, 22655, fighting '. 4 16. John Gillespie, 22467, fighting , 2 ( 755 1892. Nlghtain screen cell. Sept. 17. Stepken Flynn, 22590, refusal to work 3 17. James Lyions, 22825, flgMing 3 24. James Kennedy, 22769, flgkting 5 24. Eickue Rocco, 22448, refusal to wolrk 5 26. Mattkew Wkalen, 22558, quairelmg 3 26. Riokd. McDonald, 22607, quarreling 3 27. Lawrence O'Brien, 22411, disobedience 3 29. Carl Koekler, 21645, disobedience 3 Oct. 4. Jokn Eegan, 22041, flgkting 4= 4. Warren Skipman, 21558, figktmg - 3 4. Tkomas Ryan, 21772, assanlt 4 10. Wm.'O'Brien, 22246, insolence and di'sobediemce,' 3 11. Okas. CKaffee, 21977, disobedience ■ 2 11. Ckals. Dandelion, 21747, disobedience 2 18. Frank Ba;m.ey, 21897, tkreats and insolence ... 4 18. Fried Griger, 22187, flgkting 2 18. Josepk Martin, 22035, Noise in cell and diatobedienoe 2 19. Rickard Wood, 22863, quarreling' 2 19. Rickard Bristol, 22073, quarreling 2 19. Jokn Cassaniga, 22721, skort work 3 21. Qkarles Sinclair, 22759, talk at mess 2 21. Mo'ses Tall, 22258, disobedience '. 2 21. David Dennett, 22781, talk in skop 2 21. Patrick McCartky, 22794, skort and bad woA.,. 2 21. Henry Van AMyne, 22618, skort and bad work, 2 24. Fred Buck, 226S6, flgkting 4 24. Fred Miller, 22606, flgkting 3 Nov. 2. Harry Williams, 22204, flgkting 4 2. Ckas. Lekmamn, 22826, flgkting 3 2. Rock Rickue, 22485, refusal to work and skam aiaess 4 5. Saml. WUliams, 21968, stealing and disobedience, 4 5. Peter Brown, 22760, flgkting at mess 4 7. A. Jolivet, 22234, skort work 4 17. o! C. Perry, 22738, attempt to escape 25 18. Benj. Grakam, 22206, flgkting 2 18. Jokn ColemaJi, 22809, flgkting 2 18. Fred. Bnrtota, 22737, insolence ; 6 18. Jokn OasisanJga, 22721, insolence 6 21. John Farley, 21882, skortJ wotk 3 22. George Cowan, 22222, insolence 2 22. George Westfall, 22256, flgkting 4 26. Defter Wrigkt, 22619, skort work ; . . 8 756 Nights In screen cell. 1892. Nov. 26. Wm. Snyder, 22842, refusal to work 3 28. Theo. Carter, 22652, insolence to fotreman 2 29. Martini Garvey, 22673, flghtamg 3 29. Wm. Smith, 22845, fighting 3 29. Dennis Enland, 22934, short work 3 Dec. 1. Jolm Kammeres, 22907, talk in shop 3 3. John Wilson, 21211, short work 3 5. Frank Gannon, 22865, disobedience 2 5. John Pierson, 22611, aseaiult on keeper 5 5. Ohas. Yakel, 22497, disobedience 3 6. O. C. Perry, 22738, insolence and threats 4 8. Jas. L. Ryan, 22918, fighting 5 8. WiUiam Tenny, 22617, fighting 5 \ 8. Fred. J. Burton, 227^7, striking officer and insolence , 9 9. Dexter Wright, 22619, short work 4 9. George Walter, 21558, shioirt work 4 10. Hainrils Greeny 22790, breaking ware 3 11. Wm. Wa«i, 22791, disoibedience 3 11. Pa*se\' McOajrthy, 22794, dllsiolbedlienoe 3 12. Wm. O'Bden, 22246, shorti wiork and insolence, 4 14. Louis WHbert, 22754, refuBlal to "wWrk 3 21. Hauliife Green, 22790, sihocrt and badi work ..... 4 23. Wm. Dinkdttt, 22813, fighlting 2 23. Ed. JohjQison, 22952, fighting 2 23. John Ferris, 22540, attempt toi escape by hiding in yard 9 23. O. C. Peary, 22738, striking keleper, tihrearts and insialenoe , 8 29. John J. Hogan, 22877, short work 3 1893. Jan. 4. Wm. Mitchell, 22913, short anid bad wOlrk 4 4. Geo. McGowan, 22159, shoirltl woirk 4 5. JoOxn Farley, 21882, iDBOlenicie 3 5. Ohias. Bums, 22943, insolence and short work. . 3 6. W. S. KuisB/eli, 22535, disobedlilence 2 6. Jamies MaiPettbe, 21015, talking . . 2 7. John) LajWloir, 22771, refusal to AVork ...... 3 7. THieo. OajPter, 22«52, fighting 3 7. Eaymond Wright, 22497, fightinig 3 7. Chas. Newman, 20961, groaning in mess-room. . B 18. James Farrell, 22227, refusal to work 3 18. John Callahain, fighting - 3 19. LawJ^nce O'Brien, 22411, stealing 3 ' 757 1 SQ3 Nights in '■^oO. screen cell. Jan. 19. Joseph. Brennan, 22577, stealing 3 19. Miclialer Hayden, 21176, assaulting guard with. euspidop 3 , 22. John Lawlor, 22771, fighting 3 28, Saml. Williams, 21968, figkting 4 23. John Darmody, 22460, fighting ; 4 23. Eichd. Hill, 22994, fighting 3 27. Wm. Weston, 22051, stealing . :.". 6 28. Ed. Bond, 22703, talk in ,'3h.op S 30. Geo. Fitzpatrick, 21599, fighting 3 30. Ed. Eobs, 21851, fighting 3 31. Slgmund Huddis, 23092, fighting 4 31. .Frank DufEy, 22224, fighting 2 Feb. 1. ThoB. Smith, 22198, stealing 4 1. Geo. McGowan., 22159, insolence to keeper 4 3. Edwd. Carroll, 22457, fighttag 4 6. Sami. P. Gross, 22774, fighting 4 10. John Kaaimeres, 22907, talk in shop 4 11. Geo. Westfall, 22256, sitealing 3 I 14. Ant. Laprettoi, 22157, fighting 5 14. Michael Bnm®, 22745, stealing 5 20. HerbefPt Bradshaw, 21700, talk in shop and threats to keeper 5 21. Win. .Sherman, 22881, short work 4 21. Fred. Wilkinson, 22123, bad work 3 23. JaS. F. Byan, 21225, fightinig 3 23. Wm. O'Brien, 22246, fighting *....' 3 25. John Brady, 22213, fighting 4 25. Joseph Bland, 21742, fighting 4 25. Peter Dowmann, 23027, fighting 4 25. Jas. Famier, 22938, fighting 4 27. Harry Alright, 22802, fighting 3 27. Jos. Murray, 22404, fighting 3 Mch. 6. Tim Healey, 22092, insolence 3 8. Richd. Bristol, 22073, quarreling 2 8. Gea Von yaiembarrg, 22749, quarre'ling 2 11. Cornelius Tyalsh, 22655, fighting 4 11. Michael Bums, 22745, fighting 3 14. Patrick Moarow, 23006, nefusal to woi'k 5 14. Edwd. Doran', 22895, fighting 5 18. John Dilon, 22225, fighting 4 20. Ed. Lawn, 23001, noise in cell 4 21. Frank BeynWldsi,, 22868, refusal toi work 5 21. Ed. Bnilndle, 22214 sham iilness and noise in cell, 5 758 1 Qqq NlgbtB In io»7u. screen cell. Mar. 22. Wm, Boimm, 21164, #iort work 3 22. Louis Wilbert, 22754, refusal tO' work 4 23. Jae. L. Rjasi, 22918, tialk in, shop 3 27. Joisephi JakiesM, 22539, quajraieiliiig, 3 27. Ohais. CJainmody, 22954, quairirieiLiiig 3 29. -Geo. A. dairk, 22891, nioise iUi cell 3 29. Emil Ohiaibirillap, 21889, dasloibiaM^CTce 3 29. Johh C. SuHilvsun], 22192, diisobedienice 3 29. Jos. Morris, 23063, dSsabediemce 3 29. Jas. L. BiyenD], 22918, ayttlempt to assajult keeper, 8 30. W. S. EUBBeli, 22535, groamlimgi in messi-ix)Oiai. . 5 30. Thos. Dotraen, 21436, flghltiiiig 4 31. Jos. Buowmi, 22133, flgfetmg. 4 31. Heniry ApjAetioiil, 21884, flgittluiigi 4 Apfrii 6. Ohas. Siodaiir, 22759, disloibedliienlce 3 6. Joa WUaloin, 22425, disidbledijeiice 3 10. Qhias. Gilbeirt, 23169, dSsioibedienice 3 10. Wm. HaiDi, 23144, disoibedieaice 3 10. Albert FLtzganald, 22463, flgiMing, 3 10. Jas. SuUivmi!, 22928, figMding 3 10. Edward Jahmsonv 22952, diBOibeidieiiice. . . - 4 14. Joihai' Smiith^, 22921, refusal tbi woirk 4 , 18. Wm. LeBpeicihjti, 23176, disfiigurang' cell 3 1 18. ThiOS. HaJleitit, 22646, eihiaim inisaaiilty, 4 19. Tboia Oaflwoll, 22725, disloibediieinice. 2 21. Frank Reynoidls, 23013, refuisiaa tk> work 2 21. Philip Heaishberg, 22787, diiaoflbtedieniae 5 21. Wm. Straw, 22689, nioisie in oeill 4 24. Beaij. Pempertom', 21949, ahort work 5 24. Geo. W. Smitlh, 22761, sihtoirifc work 3 29. Dam'l Oaldwell, 22310, flghtliig 4 29. Tbm. Byiam, 23045, fighting 4 29. PaMck McGarty, 22794, short and bad work ... 4 May 3. Hemy Hutamanm, 22230, moise in cell 1 3. G 2 22. Andrew Olark, 21939, fightiin,g 1 22. Francis Connelly, 22682, fighting , 1 22. Koeso Richue, 22448, fighting .'. . '1 22. Louisi Moingun, 23178, fighting 1 27. David Myer, iijefusal to work 3 27. Frank Garter, refusal to work 3 28. John Eudlolph, insolence , 3 July 10. Albert Jolivet, disobedience 3 10. Patrick McCanthy, quarreling 3 14 Ed. J. Lawn, fighting 4 14. Jacob Labor, fighting 4 14. JaiS. L. Eyan, refusal to work 8 17. Harlry Walker, 'fighting with knife 8 17. Archibald Leslie, talking in mess-room 3 22. Danl. Caldwell, talking in mess-room . . .\ 3 Aug. 2. Joseph Collins, insolence and refusal to work. . 4 . 3. James Bums, refusal to work 3 3. Alfred Tyler, stealing 3 3. Egbert Eowe, stealing 3 8. John Paddock, short work 3 8. Tim. Healy, assaulting convict with hot iron. . 5 9. Michael Burns, fighting 4 14. Chas. Simmons, fighting 3 15. Geo. W. Smith, short work 3 18. Richard Dudley, fightJlmg , 4 760 1 QC Q NlgbtB n ioro. . _ screen cell. Aug. 19. James Boaoli, bajdi work 3 19. Ed. McGowam!, inHolenacie 3 21. Auig. Eieinheilti, quairirielitng -. 4 28. JoJm Lyon, short work . . . ; 6 28. PaMck Browia, inlsoleinice 3 29. Joihin O'Brien, inBOlence 5 Sept. 1. Joltm Holhien, nefueal to wolrk 5 4. Joiseph GoUins, short work 2 6. Josepih Keairaiey, flgihlaaig 4 6. Cbiairleia Yaikeil!, fighltang 4 7. WtOliam Miibclhell, shiotpt work 3 7. nnank GaiPtier, refusilnig to work 3 7. Louia Wilteiilt^ ipefusi'nig to work 24 8. Timoitihjy Dolan, fighting 4 13. Pranicdia Comnleilly, stioirt) work 3 15. G-eorgie Wilsoaii, feedinlg piilsoiniers unidier ptuniMi- m'enib 5 16. Tiinoitlhy Bealy, refusinig wooik '. . 7 19. OhairileB Holden, eihoirt work 3 20. Louis MoiPgaai, r^ifusang wotrk 3 22. Joseph. CoQlinB, idlemeisisi andl eihort work 4 22. JoihQ (jonmoips, nefmsiiiig- work 4 ^. Edwanid Tucker, sihorit work 3 25. Fratok Garter, short work 3 26. Louis Wilbert, learing shlop wiltlhout petrtmislsioiii, 5 James C. Shaw, being duly swom, anid testified: Examiaed toy Judge Gilbeiti:' Q. Aire you principial keeper of tihe Auburn StaJtle prison? A. Yea, sir. j Q. How long a itfiime hiawe you been? A. A year amid a haif. Q. Were y6u oonnieoted witlh the prison before tlhatt time? A. Yes, sir. Q. What capacity? A. Kitcihen) keeper. Q. Who was the principal keeper before tlhiajtl? A. Boyle. , Q. Where is be? A. He \m dead. Q. How long was he prinicipal keeper? A. Ten or twelve years, I think, if nob more; as mudh as tihat ajnyway. Q. Did you have anj'tlhing to do wdith ttoe goveraimieiiltl of the prison prior to your appointment aia principal keeper? A. No, sir; only the Mtdien deparitmient. 761 Q. Yoiu wene liene ootmiiecttleid witlh. ihe prison dtoimg the fbiime, 0* some partiom of tlue time, wllxeiii coippoipal pimiislhimeiut wiae iaiflicitedi? A. I think noit; six or eiglhit yeaais ago they aiboiMied oarporal piumiisihmieii'fe. Q. Oarporal piiiiiielhm.e!nt is not mesorted to in the pfriison diisioi- pline? A. No, isar. Q. Do yotu regard the discipline of the prison nioiw, and itlhe discipline durinig the ttroe thait you imve been pirinoipM keeper, good ajnd thoiroiuigjh? A. It hasn/t been whiat it used: to he, I don't think; it has been fair. Q. Yom haven^t aaiy troiable in mlanaJging or controlling the prisonens? A. Fair; ma trouble. Q. When prisoniers are 'ttaams'fieiTed htere firoim; the Elmira reformatory, what doCnMnents or wlilait is priestented with the prisonieip showing yoiu that you have authoiritiy itlo recelTe the prisonena and.keeip themi in custody? A. That has uisuially been turned otver in the office; I take them in and send themi to' their cells; wihaterer ordens there aire aiie ]brouiglhit to the office. Q. T!he ipirijsoners are bnouigM from Elnuira by an officer who IhJas them in custody, and that officer brings with him the ddicumentB or authority by wMcih, or under which, you have a nght, oir you receive the prisoinier and retain him? A. Yes, sir. Q. Those doteuanenttia, whjatever they may be, are rtlumied over to ihe prisonl clerk? A. Tamed over by the wiardlen fifflt, and he turns them, to the clerk. Q. Prion toi August 17, 1893, 'do you lecoUect what documents, if any, were presented to you by the officer 'haying the pcrisomerB in ohaipge? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know wlhether tthere was any document at aU? A, No, sir; I ihave seen the commitments in ttihe office afterward. Q. Was there anything else except the oommitmients? A. Not that I knowi of. , Q. You never reoeiveid any other document? A. No, sir. Q. Durtnig the year and a half or moire that you have been occupying the position of principal keeper, you -would receive the prisoineirs from the officer and the documenltls, whatever they might be? A. I don't receive the papersi; I receive the prisoners and they bring ithe paipens into the office, to (the clerk's roiom. , Q. Is there -any other officer connected with the institution that receives oir has authority to receive th^e diocum'ents exceph the -prision clerk? A. The warden; tlhey have to receipt for them wlien they bring them here. Q. There were fonty-eiglhlt prisoners brought heme about August seveint.eenth anid September seventh; how ha® the dharacter of tlioBe piriisomers oompaired, oi' their submission to prisom disci- 96 788 pUne, coimpared witihl thie dtihler pirilsomers in the' puiHoin? 'A. I tihiiik tihiey would average witlh. thie ottlieiris that we had; the oittier imriialties. Q. Did yoiu examime any of them, whem thjey caane ihepe, their peasons, to see whether there weipe broiisies or marlas npom) them? A. No, eir. Q. You didn't exaimiiiie any of them? A. Not a* all. Q. Did you observe any bruises upon them ? A. No. Q. Did you see them wlMn they were undressed ? A. No, sir. Q. Was there any oilicer of the prison that did ? A. Yes^ sir; I sent an officer .there to bathe them. Q. W!ho ? A. I think his name is Mitchell. Q. Is he here ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wihen did you receive the installment of prisoners before this forty^eight, August 17 and September 7, 1893 ? A. I doii,'t remember; I think it was in January. Q. About how many did you receive then ? A. I think atont fifty. Q. Did you examine any of those to see whether there were any bruisies- upon them ? A. No, sir. Q. Did anyone connected with the prison examine them ? A. All the examination they would have, we usually bathe them, ajs soon as they come the officer takes them over to the bath; we can) bathe twenty-four at a time; they are stripped there. ' Q. Did you notice any of them had black and blue spots upon their faces ?, A. No, sir. Q. Or that they were black and blue about their eyes ? A;. No, sir. Q. In your judgment are any of these prisoners, the last forty- eight transferred, whait you would regard as incorrigible prisoneM? Mr. Stancbfield. — Objected to as incompetent. Judge Gilbeint. — I will not ask that. Q. Has the conduct of these forty-eight prisoners brought here iKSt summem^been such as to indicate that they were inoonriglble; that is, since they have been in your prison ? Mr. Stanohfield. — That is objected to as Incompetent tesitimony. Mr. litchifield. — I understand it is entirely as to their conduct since they bave been here. Judge Gilbert. — It is suggested for two reasons. One is as bearing upon the question as to whetheri or not these prisonerB are incorrigible prisoners, and upon the other question as to whethei? or not tbe method of the discipline adopted in the reformatory are better than the methods of disicipline adopted in this prison. ISIr. Litchfield. — It seems to me it is a perfectly proper question to put to him, as to what the conduct of those men has been since 763 they came here. They hare been here long enough for him to form an opinion upon those he has seen or otoaerved. ' The witnesa. — In what sense would you mean, as a convict here ? ' , Q. Yes. A. No; it hasn't. Q. Of coulrse you don't know anything about what their conduct was befo^re; J^ am requested to ask yoiu what aire the fonns or modes of corporal punishmenit how in vogue in this prison ? A. The screen cell or jail, we call it here; we have used the pullfiiy; long ago; we haven't used it lately; it is not usied now. Q. Do you meian hang them up so their feet would not touch the floor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a time ? A. That has not been done lately, but a vettiy short time. Q. Has it been done since you liave been keeper ? A. I have done it. Q. For how long a time have you hung them up that way ? A. A few seconds at a time. ' Q. Is a physician present when that is done ? A. No, sdr. Q. Whjem you have the prisoner confined in close confinement, does the prison physician visit him ? A. Yqs, sir. Q. How often ? A. Just when I notify him; if I think a mam ain't well I notify the doctor. Q. Doesn't he comply with the requirements of the p-ison^aw, with this, that he visits them once every twenty-four hours when tbey ajije thus confined ? A. . I couldn't say that he does. Q. Does the prison physician reside in the building ? A. No; resides in the city. Q. Does he remlaiin' in the prison duiinig the day? A. Yes, sir. Q. So as to be relady to give immedi'ate and prompt attemitioin to prilsoners when oalied whlo require itb? A. Yeis, sir. Q. Does he ardesr whlat kind of food shaR be given tloi a pdisoner when confined in ciosie oonfinBment? A. No; it has not been cusitamairy here. Q. Have you examinied the law with reference toi that? A, I hajve not. , Q. Your artitentabm hais nroitl bleen ciaiU€d to tthle factt that it is his duty to direct what the food sihall be? " A. It is wholesome food, bread and water. Q. And thiat he ia required to viisiilt priisonHPs confined in dose confiniemenit every twenty-fouir houirs? A. Yesi, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Is this system otf hanging up by thie pulley sitiU in vogoe? A. No. i 764 Q. Ijti is utterly abolMued? A. Yes, sfc ' Q. How long since ? A. Two or three months, I presume. Q. Done away with two or thnee monithis ago? A. Yes; more than thia/t; a yean ago. Q. With any intention of reiieiwlng it, or is it enitLrely ahiandkwieKi? A. Wouldn't unless in eixitpeme oaisesi; tlhieire mdight be such things as we would have to do it; a nevoilt, oie sometthing of that Mod. Q. Not foiT ordinary punistaaent? A. Na Q. Kegaipdinig the punMmieaQit in the cell; is it a diark ceil? A. Dark ceU with la wooden door; a gnate dtoor and then a woodemi door. Q. So it) is albsoiutely dark? A. Yes, sii:. Q. While the prisoner is there do yooi chain him down? A. No. Q. Do you consider there is any benefit ini diiscipline to chain a prisoner under those oircumistanoes, if he is conflned in a dark cell ? A. Just for safety. Q. Not as a mettihod of discipline? A. No; we have never done it. Q. A man put in the daa'k ceU is isimply locked up ta there unless you hare reason to thlnli he is going to lescaipe? A. That ia aU; we never have done it. ■ ^ By Judge GUbert: Q. Could you fumiisih a written stlatement shiowing the number of punishments inflicted during the last two yeairsi? A. I have prepared one for you Q. Will you present it before we adjouim? A. Yeel, aar. By Mr. Litchflead: Q. What is the extreme length of timie yon leave a prisonien in the dark ceU? A. The ayerage would nioifc be ovea? four days. Q. The extreme length of time niecessary to laooomiplislh the punlsihnient? A. I had one case this summeir where I left a man twenty -four days; between three and foxisr. days is the average; thetne are otiher things connected with that; he got a hole throoigh from another ceU, and they were feeding Mim. Q. That isn't the usu'al case? A. No, isir. Q. Eliminating that one case, where the man was fed!; what is the maximum term? A. The avetragie would not be over tthaiee daya ' [ By Judge GilbePt: [ Q. WiQ yon also pfrepame a eitatemenit alhowing the various trades and oeouipations of the piniBon? A. I taiUcedl with the wanlani in 765 ipegaflMj to tihjait; hie itlhoraght maybe it womld bfe btettein to tafe thfi lajs* afliniiiial nepartL Q. TOiat lattimaail nepofrtl cioiriTectly slwvwis? A. Yes, siT. Q. Were you ooauiecteid: wiith. ithe Elmira Tefoimiiatory? A. Yes, sir; albkyut tliree miooltlhis. Q. In wliait ciapacirty? A. In t3x'e flni'sihing situop. Q. Hadm't atiijytiliing to do with, the miainiaigemieat'? A. No, sir. Q. Did th.e chairman of the Board of Charities submit to you Tor siend yon a letter making a request with reference to furnish- ing a statement in relation to Viarious things connected with the priison ? A. Not to me; to the warden. Q. You have been shown tliat ? > A. Yes, sir. Q. In wthich he requests a statement showing the various tradies and occupations, etc., of prisonens, together with a state- ment showing 'how far the net proceeds of th.ese trades and occu- pationis provide for th.e jnaintenance and existence of the prison, and I understand you to say all that can be fuUy sihown by your report ? A. Yes!, sir. i Conant Sawyer, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Aire you the prison physician at Auburn ? A. I am. Q. For bow long a time have you been ? A. Since August, 1888. ' , i Q. Have you at different, times sieen or examined prisoners ti'ansfeirined from Elmira to this prison ? A. Always examine them. Q. What, if anything, have you observed' with reference to bi'uises or anything upon their persons indicating that thiey had been subjected to severe punishment ? A. We don't have to strip them; theiy are asked a certain line of questions, and among those quesfcions they are asked, "What is your health;" and we take their answer and place it upon the book, taldng tteir oiv\'n aDSWer for it. Q. So that you know notlhing about their physical condition or what injuTiles they have received from severe punishment or alleged severe punisJunent except what they have stated to you ? A. That is all. i Q. Have you ever, in any instance, had your attenti'on called ^ to any particular bruise or anything particular showing the prisoner liad been subjected to severe punishment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You may state one instance ? A. I couldn't individualize any particular case. Q. State about when it was ? A. I couldn't pick out any paarticular case. 766 Q. State about when it was ? A. I coiildTi't pick out any paas .ticular case; what would draw my attention more particularlyi would be when a' man was birought to the hospital, and he would tell me what his condition was and what caused it. Q. In examining their persons whatfc, if anything, did you' observe indicating severe punishment ? A. I have never obsearved anything in particular ' as to that, nothing about their persons to attract my attention in that way. Q. Was your attention particularly oaUed to the condition of any petrddm ? A. Yes; I would ask a man, fo0 instance — Q. I am asking you what you saw if you never examined their persona ? A. I understood your question to be when they were first brought before ma Q. That or very soon after ? A. Whenever they would be brought to the hospital and I wo\dd have to diagnose theJJn ease I would strip them and look theon .over. Q. Tell us what you saw under those circunis!tan,c6Si ? A. One man in particular, who couldn't hold his urine; the nurse comi- plained to me he wet his bed; I went in and siays^ "You want to stop that; it nialces it very offensivfe;" he said he couldn't control it; I ajslaed him why. Mr. Sban.ch(ield. — What was said I object to'. Q. Can you specify any particular case or can you speak of any instance wheiie you found upon the person of an Ehnira convict or prisoner transferred to this prison from Ehnira anything indi- cating that he had been severely punished; what do you know in reference to one of the convicts ha^^ing an Injured eye, and give the name of the prisoner ? A. I don't know as I can give his uajue here. Q. Would Tou know him if you could see him ? A. Oh, yes; he ^\a9 transferred here and was afterwards discharged from the prison; his time had expired. Q. Was his eye damaged when he arrived ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what manner ? A. His eye was gone; the right eye, I think it was. Q. How long ago was that ? A. T should think it was 1891; I am not suine; what makes me think of the casie is this; he oame here and by some mistake he was kept over two or three months, an .error in the books, and he importuned me to attend to it, andi it was investigated, and it was found out thei-e was an error. Q. It ^^-wuid be easy to identifv that man by an examiniatiooi of the books? A. Yes, sir; I asked him how he lost his eye. ^ Q. Can yon think of any other instance or case? A. I couldn't individualize them. . ^ 767 Q. State what, if aniytlhiiiig, you observed in tike aippearamcie, etc., of the forty-eaght oonTicts traailaf erred, last exunimeir, indicating they weire in a low pihysioal comditioii? A. I didini't noitice amy- thing of that kind. Q. Anything indicating tjiey had!a''ti been pTOpeifly piroivided for so far ata ftood? A. No, sir. Q. 'Oam you tell xis sometMng about bimiises that yioiu may hiave seen upon any of yonr patienitfei in tihe hoispital; did you see amy bruises of marked importance that attracitied your aMentiom? A. Some wwuld complain and I wouM sitirip them' and look at them, and some would be black and blue. Q. On -wihat pairt of tiheiir bodies? A. Across the buttock. Q. Nowhere else? A. I siaw nothing thajfc would attradti par- ticular attenitiom. , Q. You may state more definitely wihat seeuied to) be the mattep with this man's eye? A. I made no careful examination, only the eye wias withered 'and looked as thouigh ilf. luad been injured at some imxe and the sight was gone. Q. Can you teJl wihatl the injury was to' the eye? A. I dMn't give it thkt amount of aitbenltioini; there was no inflammatory condition of the ^e at that time; might hare been ten years and might have been ten montihs before. Q. Oould the eye have been injured by a blow over tlhe head, with a heavy leather straip or ajoross the eye? A. A blow in the eye. * I > Q. Might have caused it by a blow in the eye from such an instrument? A. Yea Q. In answer to a question put toi you by the chairman, can , you tell aibout how many of the conviots transferred you dis- covered black and blue marks upon their backs or buttocks, more than one? A. YeB, sirj Q, Can you give amy idea of the nuioajber? A. I should think ithere might have been four or five of them that I exiamined; I never went throuigh. Q. Cam you stiate aibOut where those marks were uponi the back or buttocks? A. I couMn^t say because I diidn't put much cre- dence to it. Q. Can you describe the width! and lenlgth of these marks thaiti you observed? A. No, sir. i i Q. Do you remember a convict that bad been' operatedi upon for a (rupture? A. I could tell if T knew his name and could refer to the book; I recoleoti solmebodly compiainiea he was ruptured there. Q. Did you examine him? A. Oh, yesi; kept a record of all iiKose examiinatiaiDis. , 768 Q Do yoiu kmoiw a man namied Mtunay who hals been trans- feii^ here from Elmira? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is ke noiw Ib ihe tioepital? A. Ye®, sdr. Q. Do youi knioiw what the tromWe is with himi? A. Diarhoea or dyseratery. Q. AnytMng peculiar about it, bloody dysentery? A. He has it at timiesi; it is lack of power toi control his dischairges. Q. What was his oonditioii when he came here? A. Very poor. Q. Did he then' have tihas same disease? A. YeH, siir. Q. In examinlmg hun did! yom find any miarks' ,or bruiises upon him indicating he had been severely punished? A. Noi, sir. Q. Did yoTi make an examination? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Do yoiu know what Ms first name is? A. I dto mot; he is in the hospital nowt Q. How long has he been in the hospital? A. Ever since he came here. i <^ You put him in the hospital? A. Yes; we may let him oiut a little while; we have two hospitals; one where our convalescents are. (J. He is theine and is being treated for that same disease ? A "i es, sir. ' Q. The injury to the eye m|Lght have been caused by any e>:terr()al violence ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not necessarily caused by a blow from a strap ? A. No, sir. Q. And it may have been fifteen or twenty years ? A. I didn't give it only casual examination; I simply noticed the eye wasi gene and asked him the cans© of it. Q. Do voii remember the case of Altamont King ? A. Yes, sir; he died in the hospital. ' Q. Was he transferred from Elmira ? X. Yes. Q. About how long after he came here did he die ? A. He( died within a yeni% I think. Q. What caused his death ? A. Consumption. Q. \^Tiat A\'as his condition when he came here ? A. ^''ery poor. Q. Did he then have consumption ? A. We didn't diagwoae it as such. Q. He continued to mn. down ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Soon after he came here was he put in the hospital ? A. ^Ve thought first he was making his sickness; tried to get work out of him and couldn't work; took him up in the hospital and made up our mind he was a no-good fellow and let him stay there; hf broke dowTi in. the lungs and finally resulted in death. Q. Do you knovA- of any other fact, that any of the prisonersi transferred from Elmira to this prison were severely punished at Elmiira ? A. Only what they said. 769 Q. Not ftaom wlbjat yOu saw olr kMoiw? A. No. Q. Did yoii en^ev have anj couimunication with any of the oiBcials at Elmira or the physdcian in. charge of the Elmira reform- atory in reference to any of the prisoners ? A. Only for statiistics since this investigation. Q. Didn't have any coTlrespondence with them with refeirence to the discipline of the prison ? A. No; I received one letter from Dr. Wey explaining as to the conditions tha.t one of the transfers had to some arrangement he placed upon his penis to prevent h4s maistnrbating; he followed that matter because it had been recom- mended by a doctor in. the Illinois State prison. Q. What did he say ^^•ith reference to tha± being the usual treatment ? A. He said that was us«i, I thinli, in that prison, and they had used it in the prison from which this man came. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you adopt the same line of treatment here for such, cases ? A. No, sir. j By Judge Grilbert: Q. Do you consider that proper or humane treatment ? A. No, sir. j By Mr. Litchfleld: Q. What would be the method adopted here for such casfeis, and what have you followed here in similar cases ? A. We have to bear it, mostly. Q. I am requested to ask you to describe, as fully as you can, that method of treatment. Mr. Stanchfield. — That is objected to, unless the doctoir haa seen it applied. Q. You isaw it ? A. I saw the whole an-angement. Q. Describe it ? A. There was a small brass ring placed over tlie glands, and then it was fasten.ed on with some coppjer on brasis wires -^o the prepuce, holding it there so the. ring couldn't get off; pulling that iidng over the glandsi so it was uncomfortable for them if they should have an erection. Q. Are those wires passed tlirough the foreskin ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Much in the way a ring is put through the nose of a hog to prevent his rooting ? A. It would save this fellow rooting much. Q. Is that not ai custom: adopted by foreign physicdansi at timJelsi? A. I have never heard of it. Q. (Judge G-ilbert.) Doctor, will you eixamine John Eynch'si righ* eye and see what you oibseiwe? (John Lynch is brought into the mom and the doictioir ieKaminies; his eye.) A. Tlie pupil of tihe rdghit) eye is enlairged; thiat is lali I can me. 97 770 Q. A little largieir thiam itihie otJier? A. Yes. Q. What, if anything, do yxra. oihaenne in refei'ence to iMi sdglit? A. I oouldn't tell an^-tMng of that witthiont 'having a sitronig glaiss. Q. You say there is a diffleramce in the aiize of 'the eye? A. Size of the pupil. Q. What may have ciaiused it? A. A great many oauisiesi; maybe genital. Q. May have been canisied by a blow ? A. May have been. Q. What did you obsierve with mefenenioe to its beding inflaimM more than the other? A. I should not think it would aittract any pafftticular attentiom; looks as though he might have beiein' nuibbing it. ' Q. It has the appearance as if it 'had been irritated? A. J don't know. Q. Is there any way by which you can detteainine whetfiBr the visiOm has ibeen imp^iired or not? A. Yesi; there isi a way; by use of the ophrthalmoscope. j Q. You can't deitennine by the aid of lamy inistrument you hiatve? A. Noi, sic. Q. Did you see this man Lynch when he flTSit came here? A. I oan teU you by my books; that is alt. Q. Have you ever treated his eye in any way? A. That is the only way I cami teU. Q. Who is your assistant.? A. Dr. COmpton. Q. Is he here now? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is Compton a regular physician? A. Yeisi, sir. (The witness, John McOormick, is brought into the room and exhibits his person to the doctor.) Q. What do you find in reference to thene being a rupture theire now? A. It isn't a, ruptujrie, I should not think; there is no indica- tion of a rupture; one of the testSicleis is gone; I don't see any rupitune thesre. Q. Do you discover now there is any indication of Mbi being now mptured? A. I can sefe an indication he hajs had a rupture and had an openattion for it. ° Q. Do you see any indication i^howing he has not been cured of it?. A. There is, I think, am' imperfect rupture theire. Q. That is on the right side? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now try him on the left sidle? A. Thait is obliterated' by the openatito. Q. (Mr. Rtanchfleld.) Ckrald 'that be the testiicie presBtiiag down on that sidle? A. That might be possibly so. Q. (Mr. Stanchfleld.) Is there any stoar there showing the tesftticle hais been removed? A. Yes; there is a soar thene down on the scipotum. 771 (TUe name of ithie penson neoeiVeidl is Micliaiel Coyne, 22578; necedyed, ]Sr«vemlbe(r 25, 1891; disicihlairged, DaciemJbleir 9, 1892.) Dr. Oomiptoin!, 'btedbig duly isiwoim., -testified as foJHowsi: ExiaBnimed by Judge G-iibiert: Q. A^e yoiu ai regnlar pihysiiciiiain)? A. Yefe], sdir. Q. DM ytoia ati atay timle 'examine Lynicih's eye? A. I don't nememlbeo? of lever eKamiinilng. it. Q. Aboiuiti the time some ferty-eight puisomem were tranisferreid from ElmiTa to tiiiis prisoni, on? twenrty-fbiur? A. I woiuldn't say as to thiis mlan; I 'examine so many I oan't pliace tlie man. Q. WHiat is yonr impression of it? A. I taven'ti examined him. Q. Jmsit examine his eye and see if yon "think yotu have examined his eye befoire? A. The pupfl is enlarged in the orilglht eye; it loolss as thoraghit miglht have been injured in soime way. Q. What is there abont the eye thia.t indicates it mighlt poisBibly have been injtiireid? A. The pupil is largeT in) the right eye. Q. Is that an indioation it has been injured? A. Either due toi that or, a briain troiuble. Q. E33amine it closely and see wh.eth.eir yoiu diisciover an impedi- ment of the viMon? A. I don't see but he can see OTJJt of it, unless the nerve iH injua?ed, and I couldn't say to that. Q. Soon after this prisoner was brought here yWu examined his eye, and upotn examination you stated that the si'ght had been injuTied, and you examined it by the aid of a glaisB otr instrument, and that the whole inside of the eye had been knocked out, and you coulidn't do lanytihilig for it; do you remember anything of that kind? A. I couldn't did auythang for the eye if the nerve itself waJs injured. • ' Q. HaA^e you any instrument by the aid of whiioh you oam deter- mine whether the eye has been injured or the vision impaired? A. Youi can tell by ani ophthalmosiciope, posisibly, if aj man was a spejcialisit) in that line; I am not a specialist. Q. Dotii't you remember of examining his eye? A. No. Q. Did you examine the prisoners • brought here from Elmira? A. T suppose I did. Q. Did you see a great many of thtem when they were brought here ? A. I saw them when they were here: Q. Were you present when they were baithed!? A. No, sir. Q. Does your book sh'Otw whether you treated this man or not? A. Supposed to if he was treated. Q. If you simply examined tihe eye and came tio the couclusion you CDuidm't do anything for him, would your booiks show tOiat? A. The books would sihow he came up for treatment. 772 Q. Suppose he* didn't get amytJimg any furtlher I ban an oxami- nation? A. If he came np there we alwaijis asik for the naane and it is put down in the book. Q. "Who keeps the record? A. The docitor keeps the i-ecirt'd; I don't keep the reooi-d. Q. On exaanining theise transfer\s fi'Oiu Ehnira, did tou, at any time, examine their backs or their peirBloins to see whether they bore marks of ill-treatment? A. Not particularly any caMe. Q. Did you examine to see whether there were any marks upon th.eiir pereion, indi^cating they had been punSlslhea seveiriely? A. Possibly, yesi; if any man came there and made a complaint. Q. Can you recollect anyone? A. I do nCt, any special case. Q. Do you remember any ca^e where the prisoner from Ehnira was examined or looked at by you anid you found upon him marlas or bruises indicaiting thart; he had been subjected toi severe pimishment? A. I remember one case where a man had a ring on his penis; tbey said he had one; I didii't see him; I wasn't there at the time he came in; that is the only case I can remem- ber of. Q. Was there any case where you examined the peinson of a pniisomer brought from Elmira upon wMtoh ^Xtu isaiw indicartibms or bruiseia indicating the prisonei" had been subjeicted to .seAore punishment? A. I couldn't tell you what man it was; I remem- ber of a man coming up there had an injured pupil; I don't thinlc it was this man. Q. Did you see any person ^^'ho had bruises upon his back, indi- cating that he had been subjected to severe punishment there ? A. Yes; I remeuiber some ca^s where they had si>ots on thjefir back; I don't know what was the cause of it. Q. Black and blue spots or marl?* ? A. No. T. DeRouchers, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Are you one of the oflicers connected with the prison here at Auburn ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been connected with this prison. ? A. Seven yeairs. Q. In what position ? A. Keeper and guard. Q. Were you ever employed at the Elmira reformMory ? A. I'es, sir. Q. When ? A. Eighteen hundred and eighty-six. Q. For how long a time ? A. Ten months. Q. In what capacity ? A. I acted both as guard and keeper. Q. While there what did you obser-ve or see with reference to the punishment of prisoners ? A. I never saw anybody punished. 773 Q. Whait did you see with, reference to the effects of punisih,.- ment ? A. I saw one man ; Ms name ^^•as William DeGraf . Q. Do jou remember Ms consecutive nuJliber ? A. No, sir. Q/Wluit marks did you see upon Mm ? A. His face wais svelled; Ms eye. Q. Black and blue axound Ms eye ? A. His face was swelled considerable. Q. Was it A^eiy soon aftej the paddling that he made the sta,te- ment to you, or some time after ? A. May have been a day on two after. Q. Do you know be wais marked in for paddling ? A. No, s;ir; T see Mm goiD.g througb the gallery counting. Q. Did you see hitii going to the bath-room or from the bath,- room ? A. No, sir; I saw him going by his cell counting. Q. Did yoii see any marks upon him ? A. No; I wouldn't have known tbait if he hadn't told me Mmself. Q. While you were there did you see any prisoners that bad upon them mai-ks indicating they had received severe punisb- ment ? A. I tMnk not. Q. You say he was counting ? A. I was counting. Q. Did you .see, wMle you were tbere, any inmate struck by an officer, either citizen offioer or inmate officer ? A. I did, once; I don't know whether he was an officer or not; he was connecte)d with the hospital; 1 think his name was Breese. Q. State the circumstances? A. I tMnlc be wais taking — I don't know the man's name — taking a man from the cell to the hospital for treatment; he cut Ms tbroat; it looked so, and bei abused the man going up; be struck him. Q. Wbat did be strike him witb? A. His fist, I guess. Q. How many times ? A. Once or twice ; it didn't ' last very long; I wasi on duty at the door, is the way I came to see Mm: Q. Was be carrying him ? A. No; he was' walking. Q. Was the prisoner be was taldng to the hospital, was Ms throat cut ? A. Yes, ^ir. Q. Bleeding ? A. Bleeding. Q. As you understood it, be had attempted to commit suicide ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did this keeper say to him ? A. I don't remember; I don't knowf as be said amything to Mm wben he was taking Mm up to the bospital. Q. Can you give any reason wljy he was struck ? A. No, sir. Q. Or bear anything said showing the reason why he was struck ? A. If be had any' reason it must have been before be got to me, because be came right ,around tbe wing and I stood there by tbe door. 774 Q. Do you reooUect liie name? A. I dtom't recollect tike nairoB; I kmoiw tlie officer 'tihat had himJ, but I don't rememibier tike com- ■vict's maane. Q. Do you recollecit eeeing any otker prisonjer stinick thiere? A. No, sir. Q. Eiemember of Keainmig profaiiie lam^uaige used iby thie offloeoB? A. NO|, sir. Q. Since you have been' here, duning the lasit twoi or three .yeiajrSj, have you seen the Elniii'a meu wheal they aire brought in? A. Yes^ sir. - > Q. Wihait, if auytihiag, do you know with refereaoice to their havtag upon tihledr person bruises or niaa'tsi, indicating they had been siubjected to severe punisihnient? A. I never siaiw anylMng until the lasit draft that caime here; I was in a place where I could see it, and I saw two meai — I don't know wihiat their names ajre either — -one man daimied his eye wias paartly knocked ou*. Q. What did you see iadicarfinig it? A. I isa,w his eye was injured and I asked him. Q. You saw his eye had been injured? A. Yesi, mr. Q. Whiat did you see in I'efenence to the otiheir nuan? A. I don't know aibout the otther; whether it was his face. Q. What did yon see with I'ef erence to 'their hiaving bmiaes upon their backs? A. I never noticed anytihlmigi; I never looked for any; I was not in a position to isee amything of that kind only the last year or so. Q. Your duties were not such as to bring the prisoners under your charge or eye paiticularly? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever examine any of them while they were bathing, soon afiter they came? A. I did once; that is the only time I saw anylMng. Q. On that occasion what did you see? A. That isi the man I told yon about, that had the injured eye; theie were two; I don't remember what the other one had. Q. Do you mean the flesh around the eye was black and blue? A. Yes; his eye was bloodsihot. Q. Was it this man Lynch? A. If it was one of the last draft it must have been him; he is a small man that weighs about 115 or 120 pounda Q. How does the discipline here of the prison compaire with the discipUne in the Elmira refommatofry, where they have corporal punishment, and here they have not? Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is over my objection. Q. I wiU change -that; what do you say with neifeirence to the conduct of prisoners here under a disoipMne where corporal 775 Jiamilsliment is not aHorwed', ami the comduot of prisomers in Elmira ^otranaitoipy where coaipofnal pmnMimemt is allowed? A. I don't :ihlnik your corapiai-ison is fair becauise th^ere yoii haT© ai lot of twys that a man can not hiandle veiy well, and hieire yon have a lot of men and occiasiomally one boy, and he is generally the best jf tlhe lot; bnit you take 100 on 200 boys from 14 up to 20, and you aanft ©aniipa.re them with men in State prison. Q. How is it with reference to the forty-height men that were biroug'lit here last isummer; what has their conduct been here under the method of discipline adopted in the prison? A. They behave just as well here lais thie oithei- beoaiuse'they are not asked bo do so much; tiiere is no study here to keep up; all they have here Is their work and beihaviOir. Q. Under the discipline you h.ave adopted here have you kny trouble or diflaculty in comtroilling tlioise men without resortdmg to Qorporial punisihment? A. No, sir; I think not. Q. Are they incoirrigible ciiminalis? A. Some of tlijem are. Q. As la general tMnig? A. No; not as a general tMmg; a great many of them are that oome from there. Q. I am ispeaking of the last forty-eighth; how many of these would you say were incorrigible criminals? A. I don't knoTV as I am able to eiay whether they laire or not. Q. DO you know that any of them have made you any special trouble here? A. I might know occasionally of one, but I wouldn't know about all of thein, »because they don't come under my super- vision; they are scattered around. Q. When you say a prisoner is incorrigible, what do you rtfean. by that ? A. If a man won't work at all, or if he does work, distnrbs the \\hole shop, they must put him away from the men, so his influence won't spoil the rest of the men that are wUliiig to work. ' { Q. They are those who are constantly rebelling or ready to rebel against all restraint and ready to disobey all rules and rf'gulations of the prison ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you mean to say among the foorty-eight prisoners that came from Elmira last summer you have among tliem any such prisonei' as that ? A. I am not in a position to tell; I probably didn't hav^e one of those men under me; they ane scattered around in different shops^ all over the yard. William D. Tenny, bdng duly sworn, testified: Exam|ined by Judge Gilbert: The chaiirman made the same ,st-atement to this witness as to former witnesisea. 776 Q. Have you ever been confined in the Elmira reformatoipy ? A. I was sent there from Batavia, G-enesee county. Q. For ^'hat offense ? A. Stealing guns and revolvers. Q. What was your age when you were sent ? A. Nineteen. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever been confined in any prison ? A. No, sir. Q. Or any refonnatory ? A. No, sir. Q. While iu the reformatory wea^e you punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. By being taken to the bath-room and paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many different times ? A. Every month while I was there. Q. Wh.en were you transferred to the Auburn prison?^ A, November 25, 1891. Q. How often were you punished there at the refoipmaftoiry ? , A. Every month, regular. Q. For how many mon.tlis ? A. A year and eleven months. Q. Oftener than once a month ? A. Y''es, sir. il How many times iu all ? A. I can't exactly state; I waa punished the last month I was there eight times. Q. ^^^lere were you strack ? A. Across my back, the small of ray back (j. Struck on any other portion of your body ? A. Struck me across the shoulders a couple of times with a strap. Q. ^\ny other place ? A. Aixmnd my legs. Q. Any other place ? A. He kicked me on my knees, on mi^ legs. • Q. Strike you with anything else ? A. With his fist. Q. Where ? A. In my chest. Q. Where were you when he .stnick you with his fist ? A. In the bath-room. Q. Where were you when he kicked you? A. In the bath- room. I Q. Do you,knovv why he struck you with his fist ? A. Because 1 was getting too many reports from the convict that was over me. Q. WTiat did he my to you ? A. He asked me what was the cause of it, and I told him they were giving me reports I hadn't ought to have; he said, " Behave yourself and you won't get them;" and I told him that I didn't lilce to be punished; that it didn't do me any good; that 1 done the best I could, and he up •with his fist and hit me a couple of times an,d sent me out. 'Q. Did you know why he kiclved you ? A. Yes, sir; because I wouldn't stand straight for him and let htm paddle me. Q. Whait did you do ? A. Standing with my kneefe bent a little, having your hands up on the stone; the first l^ime I was ipi 777 Itiere I didn't understand, and 1 stood with, my knees bent a little bit, and be wanted me to stand witb my legs stiff, and be kicked nie on that knee, tbe left knee. Q. Leave any mark? A. No^, sir. Q. Wbat was your employment? A. In tbe founidiry . Q. Yoiu were marked! becauise you ooiuldn't wrform your task? A. Yes, sir. i Q. MaiPked foir any otber reason? A. Sobooling. Q. Not fperfoirming your task in sobool? A. Yes. Q. Diso'beying tbe rules in scbool? A. I never disobeyed any rules in scbool. ♦ Q. Were yom marked for any otber reason tban wbat you bave stated? A. For military conduct. Q. Noitl perfo'noing properly tbe military dtuty? A. Yes', sir. Q. Aniytbing elsie? A. NotMng I can tbink of. Q. Were any bnoises or mairks mad© upon your body by any of tibe blows tbat be gave yooi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wbat iniarkei? A. Witib tbe strap. Q. Wlbat marks were made upon yoiu? A. Blaok andi blue marks acroiss tlbe middle of my back. Q. More tbam onoe? A. Yes, sir; once I was down in the bath- i?oom and he wouldn't piaid^dle me because the marks were too bad on my back. Q. At any time was tbe skin on your back broken or cut by the sttrap? A. It was out so tbe blood ran three different times. • Q. On three different occasioinis you were strapped tO' tiliat extent that the Mood ram down your back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wbat bad you been doing those times? A. One of the lieu- tenants that was over me — I made a mistake one military af teii- noon. Q. Was tbat for failure in your military duties or failure to perform your task ? A. Once for military and once for task. Q. Tbe third time what was it for? A. Tbe same offense; task in the fotundry. Q. At any time did you see the officers there, citizen or inmate officers, srtrike tbe prisoners? A. Yes, sir; strudi me. Q. Wbat ofticer struck you ? A. Sample. Q. How? A. With bis fist, in my face. Q. Knocked you down? A.' No; didn't knock me down. Q. Cut your face? A. No. Q. What for? A. I was going to take a ration of a fellow that didn't belong to me aaod he didn't like it. Q. You were .going to take some oither prisoiieT« ration? A. No; the ration, pushed to me; there wasm'ti enough m it, and' 1 98 778 reacihed over to take anotheir ration^ and with thai he hil' me in the fax;e. , , Q. Struck by nny other officer? A. Yes, sir; Winnie. Q. Where? A. In my face. . Q. Witli ^^•'halt? A. With, his fist for not performing my task. Q. Knock you down? A. No; he didn't knock me down, but he came very near doing it; didn't lack very much of it. Q. Did either of the officers use profane language to you, or in your presence? A. ^Ir. Winnie and Mr. Broc]v\\iiy did. (^ What language did they use? A. It was damning me. (i. Anything mere than that? A. They oouldn't do anytbing wxirse, I don't think. Q. Take the name of the Maker in vain? A. Yes. (i. Give the languaige? A. " (lod damn you, I will kill you if you don't do your work;" tbat "wais Mr. Brocio\'ay"s -noirds to me, and four other men behind me; one m ius Sample; one was Winnie and the othei- was the hallkeeper. Q. WTiere -were you? iS.. In the bath-room at that time. Q. Had yon been paddled? A. No; I was just goinig to get paddled. Q. Did yon get paddled that time? A. Yets, sir; iflwelve stripesi; that ^\ a.s the language he used to me before I was paddled. Q. Km- use ]irofane language to you at any otlher time? A. No, sir; only when he got me in the bathi-room. Q. ^^^lat was the language Sample used? A. "God damn you, take that ration of meat or go witihioiat," amid Mr. Winmd© saidj, " I A\ill kill you, damn you, it you don't do ycnw, work." Q. AMiat was yonr tasik? A. Ninety -five mClds. Q. Of what? A. Of soickettei Q. How many could yon perform? A. I could pout up my tiaBk all righit enough but I didn't get any, whiait you would call " over ttue ta-sk;"' the task was too big; I had to put them ujp anyway in order to get them up. Q. The tirouble was defective work? A. Yes^ sir. Q. "V\Tiat has your conduct been since you haive been here? A. Pretty fair. Q. HJaive you beien punished in here? A. Been punished a Uttle for my work. -, ^ Q. Defebtive work? A. Yes. Q. What do yoiu work in here? A. Fonndry. Q. How have you been punished? A. I have been in the screen cell four tSmies; I have been' hung up twice and four timesi I have been let go: Q. What were you hung np for? A. For my work. 779 Q. Defective woirk? A. Ym, islLr; beicause I couldn't keep up my itaeik. Q. Are you noiw aomfliiied in you cell? A. I am. at work. Q. Performing yom ttaisk? A. I can put up my task and fouin or five over, but I can't keej* my motIc a,s I would like to; I do all I can. Q. How long bad you been in tbie neform^aitofry before you were put in the red suit? A. Ttiriee montlnsL Q. After ttiat time did you always remain in the red grade? A. I remijained iui tbe red: griajde until, I think, it wajsi July, then he put me in the second gnaidie; I was there tbreei days amd he reduced me to tbe third grade. Q. Were you in the third grade wbem you were sent to this priisoiii? A. Yes. Q. Wluait weire you neduoed for? A. One of the officers wasi going along aud I waisi using; a bucket and hie claimed I wias masitiuirbating, aud be gave me a. flrsit class report for it; I bad Colonel Byran investigate it for me, but; Brockway said whatever the officer siaid wo'uld stand. Q. Do you know why you wiere trajnsfeirned to this priision? A. No; mot exactly. < Q. Ha,d you lever been convicted of auy otber offense? A.- No, sir; I ihjaive never beeM in nio other prisioin. Q. Did you tell Mr. Brock'way you bad been confined? A. Yes, sir; beoanise I wanted to toe ttransf erred from there. Q. You finally did tell the superintendent that you had been con- victed beftore and that you had been impriisoued before? A. Yes, sir. Q. But those statiementsi were untrue? A. I lied to him. Q. Made for the purpose of getting a, transfer to this prision? A. Yes^ -sir. Q. Did you know at thte time you were making tihx)ise statements the maximum extent of the puuiisbiment you migbt be sinbjected to for the offense whicb you committed? A. No; I didn't think any- thing about that because I knew notMng about law ; but I asked anortlhier mian there who waiSi workimg by the side of me, and he siaid the only way you cam get away from here is toi tell Brockway you were convicted before, and I got a special interview with Mr. Brockway and told him I couldn't get aloug there; that I waa 'an' ex-convict. By Mr. Litcbfleld: Q. Do you say you were hunig up here? A. Yesi, sir. Q. How. long ago the last timei? A. Last monith. 780 Q. Hoiw long weiie you hung up? A. Five secondis. Q. The time before that how long ago ^Yas thiarti? A. It wae in the sprang. I Q. Hung up a certain length of ttimie? A. Yes, sir. Br Judge GUbert: Q. Were you charged "with oflfense that caused you to be taken to the bath-room besides those of failure to perform your task^ we^re those charges true ? A. Part of them were true and part of thean \vaisn't; if another convict had a grudge against you, all he has got to do is to sen.d in a report, no m'atter whether it waS true or not; I had a number of fln^t-class reports in my cell that v>asn"t true at all. 'Sh: "VMiite. — I wish to introduce a portion of the reformatory record. The biograpliical register says that this wiitues®' state- ments with refereuce to his Laving previously been confined in prison ai-e made probably to aid in securing his transfer. WiUiam Walteits, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert : The chairman made ihe same statement to this witness as to former witnesses. Q. Have you ever been confined in the Elmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. T\Tien were you sent there ? A. The first week in Novem- ber, 1890. (i. From what place ? A. New York city. (2- For \\hat olfense ? A. Grand lai'ceny in the second degree. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you ever committed any offense before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Never convicted of any criuie ? A. No, sir. Q. Ever confined in any prison or reformatory ? . A. No, sir. Q. Or house of refuge ? A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a time ? A. About three months. I was told by Colonel Bryan T was ciharged A^ith sodomy. Q. Were you told you ^\eve transfeiTed on that offienKe by auy- ome eise? A. No; I was not told; I was transferred. Q. That yon! were ohargedl with that? A. I was charged with that before I was redaiced toi the red snit. Q. After yon were told that that rhargie wasi made against you and before you were actually transfeiTed to this inison, v.hat hearing, if any, did you ha\'e before the board of officers or the courtj-martial? A. None, whatever.. Q. You isay you never were brought befoa-e- the court-martial to give your statements witli reference to thati? A. No, wir. Q. Witnesses were never broUglit before you? A. No. sir. Q, Or before the court-martiial in your preisence? A. No, iiir. 782 (}. XeA'ea* mai(l»i any statements to tHieni witli reference to yomr case? A. Xo, sir; not in mj' presence. Q. Didn't you go before tlie oonrt-niartial and make yoair o^vn statement? A. No, sir; I was cooaflned in a eell. Q. You imdeiTstood a eliarge was made against ymi tliat yon •wi've guilty of the offlense of sodomy? A. I was told so by (^'olouel Bryan. I Q. How many days was tJiat before you wei'e transferred to this prison? A. Two dara before I was transferred and two days aftei' I was first looked up; I was lockeid up in tihe .■-■olitary cell two days and no one came near me except the officer that brouglht bread and water to me. ■, ( ►. ^Vt the time, or before you were locked up in the solitary, wereii'tl you informed by anyone that a ohaiige had been made aaainst you that you were guilty of sodomy? A. The night I was locked ujp by Colonel Halpin I asked him what for; he told me he was locking me up by the superintendent's order; same evening I Avas off duty; he tbld me first that he didnft know; I insisted on questioning him about it; as I was about, to go in the cell he told me: "Walters, don't blame me foTi this; I am^ obliged tlo jmnch these people, kick them, in ordei? to sihow these other people" — he meant Hoppe, Colonel Bryan and Van Ettlen'; that he wasn't afraid how far they carried that investigation; he ways: " If they keep on they will have me in it myself;" I asked him who wa*! itl aroused me of sodomy; he said he didn't know, but I would find out in the mourning; the morninig came, and Officer Sample, the store-room keeper, came in with bread and water and left it on the floor and went out ; came in that evening again with bread and water, and tihe next morning, Tuesday morning; Tue: him he happened to glance in tihe cell where I was confined and stopped and' says: •'"^'alters, I am surprised to see you here; if every man in this institution, every officer, was to be dharged with the crimes you are charged A\ith, I aaouM expect you to be the last man;" I didn't ask him what I was charged with; says he: "Don't you know?" I says: "No, sir;" he says: "I will come back again;" he went out to get a slip of paper and read froan it or pretended tb read three names; he says: "Sergeant Miller charges yon with having committed sodomy with him; Sergeant Facey charges the same offense and Sergeant Mullen, he dharges. you with having held licentious conversation with him; I told him I didn't recall these ' 783 people at tHie time, that there wei'e many men confined in the irstitution, nnder the same names, aad I asked him to explain; who they were; he say«, "Here is Jacobs; surely you must know; him; he is a notorious cock-suckea*;" those are his own words; I^ dc-nied knowing him; he said, "I am very loath to believe you)' guilty of those charges;"' I says, "Do you believe I am guilty;, does the superintendent believe I am guilty;" he says, "People claim you are;" I says, " If that is the case take me outside andi- have me tried in a court of justice;" I knew I would get no justice there; he says, "The superintendent wouldn't think of such a thing as that; you would get twenty years;" I says, "No, sir; I wouldn't get tA\enty minutes; bring my accusers here in front of my face and have them tell me ^^'hat they have told you ;" he says, " That is not necessary; they said so; that is enough; they told me and the siuperintenfient;" I says, "Bring them here, anyhow; where did these crimes take place; what time and place in this institution;" he says, " I don't know; I suppose it must have been in the north extension, where so much of it has been going on;" 1 says, " Bring your duty charge hei^e;" he was the offlcer that had assigned me to duty, and he knew I never done a day's duty im tJiat part of the building A\hile I was on parole; he says, "Youl were seen on the north extension;" I was there for count duty or on Sunday for twenty minutes oir so as a relief offlcer, but always in the presence of a citizen officer, and I aslved him to bring the citizen offlcer there and p^o^'e it was impossible for me to commit those crimes at that time and place; he says, "They say so; what axe you going to do;'' I sa.ys, "Have they any eviden.ce against' me;" he wouldn't an.s^\er that; then I began to reproach him for the manner in which he abused these creatures, and I said, " Won't you belie^'e I can go outside on the galleiy and by thj-i same method I could brin.g in half a dozen of those ci'eatures who would accuse you of the same charge;'' he says, " I don't know about it;" he went away then. Q. This was on Tuesday morning ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What cell were you placed in ? A. In a solitary cell. Q. A three-comer cell '! A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you chained ? A. A^o, sir. Q. No chains were put upon you ? A. Xo, sir. Q. Was the cell dark ? A. No, sir. Q. Proceed from there and give a histoi'y of the matteir ? A- Before he left he told me, 'You are not condemned yet;" I says, " I am here ; I have an officer's suit on." Q. Down to Tuesday morning ytni had retained your offioers' snit ? A. Yes, sir. 784 Q. You Avt'ie still a paroled ofRcei- ? A. As fai- as the suit was (f'ncei'ned, yes. (}. As far as any reduction or change in grade was concemied, a^ far as yon knew ? A. Yes, sir; Thursday, right after dinner, the >«upei4ntendent came there and Mr. Hoppe came down. Q. Four days from the time you wen- first put in ? A. Yes, sir; I heard the superintendent speaking to a man oonflned in another cell, about two cells from where T was locked, and the man asbed the superinf|endent what he was charged "with; he turned to 5Ir. Hoppe and says, "Tell him;" Mr. Hoppe read from, the paper several charges of sodomy, and something about a letter; I couldn't catch e\'er\thing he siaid; when, he got through! talking to this num he came to where I ^\as confined, and, without glancing in the door to see who he was talking to, he sajBi, "Did you want lo see me;" I says, " No, sir; I want to see my accu-sers;" he walked right on. I Q. AMio was with him ? A. Mr. Hoppe; probaWy fortj" minuttes or an hour afterwards Keeper Samipl© camie theire wittih a third grade suit^ land I was fonced to put it om. Q. I ^^•ant you to he ptw-ticulair as to what actually ocouirred l>etween you and Mr. Brockway and Hoppe at that interview on Thursdiay? A. That is all that was siaid; he simply asked me if I -uTjshed to see him. Q. Y^our reply was, " No, sir; I want to isee my acoiisens?" A. Yes, sir. Q. Wh;at reply did he make to that? A. Nome Whatever; he passed right on; never glanced at me; never looked at me; he kept his face stiaight ahead. Q. Have you stated everything relating to the manmen in whicih you Avei^e acc-used, and the mianner in which the accausatiomisi were inquu-ed into, and the manner in which they were disposed of juet before your being tnansferred to this prison? A. Yes, sdr; as near as I can remember. Q. So far as you know, ^solely upon the strength of wbalt you hav(> stated or solely upon the accuisiation made against you, as you hare stated it, and without any other oppoirtunity to inveisiti- gate the matter or to show whether the charges were false or true, your sentence in the Elmira neforaoiatioiry, or puniehment, or confinement in the refonnatory was changed to confinement in this prison? A. Y''es, sir; I demanded of Oolonei Bryan to bring the«e men in front of my faee, aooid he woiuldn't listen; said it wasn't necessary; I don't know what his reasons were. Q. When were the chains put upon you? A. Friday afternoon. Q. "VMien \\ere you talten to this prision? A. Saturday morn- ing we left ElmJTia. 785 Q. Duiitag ihtait emitSre time youi were! aootfinied in the solitaxy? A. Yes, Sim. Q. "Wtofc food did'yoiu ha-T©? A. Third gnade food. Q. What was (tiuatt? A. Bread and water -and hjaslh in the moming and bread and wiater' and moiasisies for supper ; atPfcer we were reduiced to *he third grade we were tlakeh frooni the solitary aiidi for one day we were placed on tihe sOutih blofck. Q. Did yon know at the time whiarti thje maxkntim. arnxMinit of time was tlhat yon miigh-t be semt toi plrlilsloni foir the cirime ©hiaicged a.giaiinBt you? A Yes, isiir. Q. Whiaifl was it? A. Twienty yeaa-is', I bdileve; I wa» not sure. Q. So your impdisonmienlt in this manner hjaisi Waem clhjangied< from the Abrt teirm you migUti ihave heiem confined in the refoirmatoiry to a twenty yeans conflnem,e(ntt ini State pniison unliesis the time ©aimed by good behavior? A. I dlonft quite unidenstlanid yoju. Q. Aren't yon miilsitak'en: in reference td the maximum length of time; five ye'alisi; isn't it? A. Five years for the cihairge I waa under. \ Q. Youi were sent to Elmipa in what- year? A. Eighteen hun- dred and niniety. Q. Wene you ever taken to the bath-room? A Noi, sir. • Q. Never was puniislhed ita amy way? A. No^. sir. Q. What do you know of convictsi being ipunMiied iSevieirely thiere? A. I saw a young boy named Greslh'am, a Russiiam Heiblrtew, with, a contused eye, one evening aisi I wasi passtnig the cell. Q. Do you know whethier te haid been taken to the bath-room or not? A. He told me iSO. Q. Did you see him go there or rettum. from there? A. 'No, sdr. Q. You saw Mm in his cell? A. I saw himi in hte cell. Q. With wh.at mark uponi h.im? A. HiiS eye blackened; he stripped 'himiself and elbowed m© Msi back, and it waisi blaick and blue; livid, like the color lotf liver. Q. Over what portion of the back? A. AbourtI there. (Dr. Wey .says from the sihort riibsi dowm.) Q. Did you see any othiens? A. Yes; a mam named Edwaird Ryan; he was punishedi two or thiree days in suoceisaion; he toM me isoi; he bad been confined for that timie; I know the night they released: him and sent him to his oeU; I happened' to be on duty and was tcvW toi lock him' up; he could hardly walk; he was sore all over; I asked ihim what ha,ppened to him; he showed me his back; he was all black and blue and bloodi; his back was out; his posterior also, from the beating he received'; it had been bleeding. Q. Was his shirt stuck to it? A. Yee^ sir. 99 786 Q. How high, up was he cut oo the back? A. About the same and further down too. , Q. See any other marks on him? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see bruises upon any other inimiate? A. I did on Witzman; I saw his head bandaged up and his eye blackened; marks about hi® body I did not see. Q. You saw him with his head bandaged? A. Yeis, sir. Q. See any marfe^ upon his face? A. Yes; blaok eye; bruised od his face. Q. Any outs on his face? A. I couldn't positively say; he w^ confined in the cell at tihe time; he wouldn't look you straight in tbe face. -S Q. Do you know of any others? A. I do, but not by name; I saw them. Q. Were your duties such that you were required! to remain in a position where you could see pensrais going to and from the bath-poom? A. Befone I went on parole; yesl, salp. Q. What, if anything, did you see with reference to Others, as they came from the bath-tx)om, haiving upon them marks or evi- dence of having received severe punishment? A. One day I was working on a scaffold, buiWing the iron siMrway leading up to the chapel, and right after dinner, I saw Sample,, Muipphy and Lazenby, taking men in and' out of the bath-room; they run them in, and after a short while nin them out, some of them, with their pants dragging behind them; not givinig them time to pull tJhem up; I could see bloodi on one or two, trickling downi their lege, and tihey were rushed into the oelte at the end of the south block. Q. Do you recollect any others? A. No, sir. Q. Do you recollect the names of those? A. No, sir; I was u]) on the scaffold at the time; I didn't take notice who they were. Q. Did you ever see any of the ofaeere strike inmates? A. I saw Colonel Bryaai strike a boy one day with Ms fljst*;' struck him in the face in the office. ■ , Q. What wag the effect of the blow? A. Knocked him down; staggered him; he accused him of having been talking; tbe boy denied it, and he insisted on claiming the boy had been talking to another one standing- outside the window; the boy still denied it; Bryan called the boy a liar and struck him: Q. What reply did the boy make to that? A. None whatever. Q. What did Colonel Bryan do? A. He struok the boy and knocked him down, Q. Did you see any officer strike an inmate? A. No, sir. Q. Hear Mr. Brockway use i>rofane language? A. No, sir. Q. Did Mr. Brockway strike any convict in any other way than by the paddle? A. No, sar. 787 Q. Do yoTi rememibw 'the name of the boy Bryan sbnick? A. No, sir; I 'dt» not. Q. Can't yoiu tell wih£ire the boy worked or state anything by which he can be identified? A. I believe he worked in the Turjfbreila shop; I am sure; I linow the boy's face; as to his nam.e, I couldn't say. Q. Did you know the colored man, Joteson? A. Yes, sir; he worked under me in the fotunidry. / Q. Did you see hiimi at the time he was punkhedl? A. No, sir; after I had charige of the foundry I domi't believe he was punished. Q. Did he remain in the foundry down to the time you left ? A. Yes. - I Q. After you had charge of the foundry you believe hie was, not punished ? A. Yes. Q. Do you know about his being punished before ? A. I heard soi; I didin't eiee any marks. Q. Did you ever hear Mr. Brockway or any of the offlaersi uae) profane language to inmatesi ? A. No, sir. Q. What is your record here ? A. Good, I believe; I have never been punished. Q. What is your employment here ? A. I worked in Hie collar shop, running a sevdng machine on the leather. Q. Are your parents living ? A. My father is. Q. Are you a married man ? A. No, sir. Q. Where does your father live ? A. San Francisco; that is my. home. '^ Q. Was that your home when you were convicted ? A. Yes; I had been in New York but a short time. Q. What was it you stole ? A. A watch. Q. From whom ? A. From a person named Shafer. Q. Whereabouts ? A. In, Allen street. | Q. Night-time or day-time ? A. Day-time. , Q. Anybody else with you ? A. Yesj sir. Q. Assist you in taking the watch ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The man drunk or sober from whom you took the watch ? A We were all drunk. Q. Was the man who assisted you in taking the watdi, has he been convicted ? A. Yes, sir; he was sent to the reformatory. Q. Is he now in the reformatory ? A. He wen,t out on parole. Q. What was his name ? A. Thomas Allen. Q. Was he sent to the reformatory the same time you were ? A. Yes, 'Sir. Q. Both together ? A. Yes', sir. Q. He remained in the reformatory to what time ? A. Until New Year's Day; fimt of January, 1892. 788 Q. Were you, at the time he obtained his parole, in tiiie same grade that he was ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you also jxaroled ? A. Our parole was authorized at the sanne time. Q. Did you remain there under promise of pay ? A. I first — the board of managers authorized our parole to take place in November, 1891; 1 wrote for employment. Q. Did you both have an even standing there at the time when he was discharged ? A. My record was better than his in every respect. Q. By rciison of the occurrences which you have related, instead of your being out on parole as he is, you have been, transferred to this prison and are confined here ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was there anything said to you with reference to your remaining in the reformatory as an inmate officer under pay after your parole had been renewed ? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Brockway told me if I would accept a situation there. Q. Did you accept of a situation in the reformatoiy, as a paroled officer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you act in that capacity ? A. Nine mohths'. Q. What were you to receive per month ? A. Thirty dollars to start with, and then my salary would be advanced if my record was good. Q. You continued to act as a paroled officer down to the Sunday night that yov were lodged in this cell ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Under that promise to pay ? A. Yes, sir. Q. At that time what balance was dne you', as you understood it? A. About |150 in money. Q. Have you received that? A. No, sir. Q. Or any portion of if? A. No, sir; I received part of my salary every month. Q. About 11.50 was still there? A. Yes, sii-. Q. Do you know whether under the rules and' regTilations of the reformatory it is claimed' that you have lost all right to that money? A. Mr. Brockway 'has wrote to me since I came here, and said ail my olotlhing and' money, under the rules; of the reformar tory, were confiscated. Q. Not only your tienm' of imprisonment has been extended by these chargea, and this manner of sustaining them against you, buifc you have also had taken from you the earnings which you were entitled t'o under the arranigement yoiu made with Mr. Brock- way for the amount of about |150? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tlhat without any trial, investigatibn or anything else in which you had an opportunity to present the faotis as you claimed them? A. Y^, sir. ' 789 By Mr. LitcMeia: Q. When you said yoiir clotMng was confiscated, which, cloth- ing do you meaji? A. The clotMng I purchased while on paipole. Q. Waa it citizen's clothing or military clothing ? A. Citizea's and mUitairy both, and linen underwear, shoes and everything else. Q. Those were purchased by you with money you earned in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell us what you had ? A. Three suits of military imiform, one .citi/ven's suit, hat, three pairs of shoes', and probably close on to a dozen shirts; 1 can't say exactly, and socks and handkerchiefe and linen, umbrellas, rubbersi, half dozen suits of underwear. By Judge Gilbert: Q. What businessi is your father engaged in ? A. He is in no business at present; for some time ^e has been confined, sick; he was in the express business. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Wouldn't the military clothing be the property of the reform- atory, anyway ? A. No, sir; we purchase them. Q. When a man leaves the reformatory is his military uniform givem to him ? A. I believe, if he wishesi to take theuL, he can totke them with him; thiey wouldn't be no good to anybody outside of the reformatory. i Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, the discharged men do take their uniform with them ? A. No; I have heard so, >ut I couldn't say. ' | By Judge Gilbert: Q. Who furnishes the military suits, the State ? A. The flrsit suit; after thati I believe you are charged with them; in fact, I know so. Q. You have credit for a certain amount of labor that you do, and you are charged with the value of the military suit? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is in that way this clothing was obtained ? A. Yea, sir. Q. All of it ? A. Only the militaa^. Q. How did you obtain the citizen's clothing ? A. All send down by some of the officers. Q. How did you pay for it ? A. I paid the officer who purchased it for me. Q. Pay it out of mop.ey paid you for your services as a parole man ? A. Yes, sir. 790 Q. The same for your imderclolMiig ? A. Yes; part I pur- chased myself on a visit to the city. Q. Paid for with money which you had earned and which w«il9 yours ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did you get this money ? A. Every month we received a check for a certain amount, whatevei^ we would ask for. Q. Whose check, the check of the institution ? A. On the Chemung Oanal Bank, signed by Mr. Brockway, as superiatendent of the refoirmatory, and Dr. Wey, as president. Q. This parole which you had entitled you, if you could find employment outside, to go outside and engage in work ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. You had that parole at the time you accepted the position of inmate officer ? A. Yes, sir; Mr. Brockway gave me to under- stand when I accepted that position, at the end of six monthsi if 1 was dissatisfied he would allow me to go to outside employment Q. Had you reonained there six months or over after that promise had been made to you ? A. At the end of six months I made application to the sui>erinteiident and he answered he had no objection to my going, but he would like some definite idea where I was going, and what at; I told him I was going at the butcher business or machinist, the trade I learned at the reforma- tory, for the time being; I would go to New York city or some othei' city until I could obtain my absolute release, and then I was going to California; he wrote back I didn't have quite money enough at the time; if I should wait until after the board of mfinagers met that month he might probably let me go; after the board of managers met I asked him again, and he told me not to become impatient, to wgjt; shortly afterwairds he passed me one evening in the stairs in the trade school, aaid asked me how much money I had ; I told him about |125 ; he says, " Do you wish to go to California;" I says, "Yes, sir;" he siays, "That is right; that is where I want you to go, but you haven't money enough;" I told him $125 would carry me there safely; " Oh, but you would have to leave flOO behind;" I thought that was rather severe, after being so long on parole there under his very eye, and I had known him to give other men that were going to California without holding a cent; they didn't have any money to leave behind them; he says, "You have not got money enough; they will require you to leave |100, and they will send it to you when we give you an absolute release^ and you should have flOO in your pocket when you reach there;" I reminded him of his agree- ment to let me go at the end of six months' time; he says, " There will be time enough in April;" I proposed then I would stay untU T9i the first of January, if he would allow me to go then; he says, " No; you will have to stay until April." Q. And January you were sent here ? A. Yes: I had to stay or run away, one of the two. Q. Have you had any conununication with the other inmates ? A. Yes, isir'; I wiaih to remark that I am glad you reminded me of it; Facey, one of my alleged accusers, has worked with me in the same shop since I came here until a few weeks agp, and I have repeatedly a^ed him why he charged me with sodomy; he denies having mentioned my name at all; if he done so he must have been unconscious and didn't know what he was doing; I have advised him time and agata, since I heard this investigating committee would be here, to tell the truth, and tell why he done so, but he eitai denies it to me; I don't know whether he did make a statement or not; Mullens is still here, but I didn't have a , chance to spetik to htm; we have always been separated. Q. Have you had an interview with Mr. Eoeder oir Mr. "White ? A. This gentleman ; a few months ago. Q. '(Mr. White.) Haven't seen me since ? A. No, sir. Q. Anything further of importance that you wish tp state ? A. No, sir. 1 By Mr. Litchfield: ' Q. Do you know Nicholson ? A. I know him by sight. Q. Is he one of the men who accused you? A. No, sir; two of dnese men are in the institution now, Facey and Mullens. By Judlgfi Gilbert: Q. How long hiaid yoiu been in New York when you hfud com-» mitted this offense ? Ar Not very long; 1 had been in England. Q. Wh.at is your nativity ? A. An American. Q. You had been in Emglaiad)? A. Yes, sir. Q. When you committed, the offense thiait you have refenred tb you say you were under the influence of liquor ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever convicted of an offense before you ware ma- victed of the offense for wMch you were sienit to Eknlra? A. No, sir. Q. You state that poisitively? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You never were confined there? A. No, stiir; except' the ihouse of nefuge in San Framcdisioo. Q Weren't you auffieritag from venereal disease whieni you were admitted to the refoaraiiaitary? A. Aq ulcerated leg, vamioose veims. 792 Q. Gbmusum? A. iNo, we. Mr. WMite. — We hja-rei seyeml more tlhiatti aire cumojlatiVe; under the UDideiiisitanding at Elmfljria wie will moiti aaiU amy mioiPe Adljommied' to meet ia New York city, Firid'ay, November 17, 1893, 10 a. m. Tlie place to he amioiiiiiiced. liiesm£t<&r. Ntewi York, lYiMayi, Nov. 17, 1893. The oominibtee met puinsiuiaimt toi adljoiuirDmeat. Preaenlt.— Edward B. laltchiaeld', Eteiq., amidl Dn. Stephen T. Smitbh. Mflichiael Hoiwaid, beinig diuly awomj, tesitSfled: EtsamiiiiM by Judge Q-ilbert: Q. Where do yooi resdde? A. Two luundired and! sixity-foiuir Third avenue. Q. Have yoiu ever been in tihe Elmira Tiefblrmiajtoiry? A. Yes, sniri; I hiave been there two yeans. Q. Erran what place were you sent? A. From New York. Q. What far? A. Fon receivitnig stolen gooldls. Q. Did yotu plead guilty to tihe indictmerat? A. Yes, sir; I did. Q. How long were you comflnied in itihe nefonmaitoiry? A. Two years. Q. Were jeii* like thait airoimd the pofet Q. Etid thiat paiH© you from thje flooir? A. No, sLr, Q. You istood upon the flood"? A. Stood upon the floor; yes, sir. Q. Buit held faist by the maimer; indicated to the post? A. Yes, sir; every time he stanxck me with a padldle the effect of it was so sbrioaaig upon me that I would sometimiesi slide down, and I wouldn't stand up perfectly as he wanted me toi; therefore, Mr. Beach sitlruck me several timeisi, and my facie wasi all Mackqned; my eyes were blue, and I was pretty well bruised uip. Q. The fleeih was bruisedl aboiut your eye? A. Yes, sir; from there I was put in the solitary cell, when they got thromgh flog- ging me, and I was in tjiere four days and four nights. Q. Were you chained when you were iu' the solitary? A. I was chained down to the floor. , , Q. Describe th.e manner in which you were chained'? A. There was a chain about four or five feet apatrt of each other; there was a handcuff on each one of these chains; you would have tb put yOur hand out like that, and they would chain your hand on each one of those. Q. Were you chained to a ring in the corner of the soiitaiy cell? A. Yes, ear; right om the floor. Q. Was the ring upon a bar, a sliding ring? A. There was on the side wall, but I was chained on to the floor. ^ Q. Were you chained to the ring in the comer of the cell? A. Yes, edr. I By Mr. Litchfield : Q. Where are those cells situated? A. Right above the plaice where I was paddledi in No. 4, the same pillar that I was pad- dled to supports the stairs that leads to those cells. By Judge Gilbertl; Q. Was it a three-corner cell you were ini? A. No, sir; it was square cell; thei-e was a row of them. Q. This was what was called the old solitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not the new solitary? A. W wa^ there in 1887. Q. Do you know whetfeeir the new thiree-coimer isoiitairy cells were miade before you left the refoamajtary? A, I never was in one of them; I know nothing about it. Q. How long do you say you remained in the solitary chained? A. Four days and four nights. Q. Were you chained aH the while? A. I was chamed all the while. 795 Q. Hoiw" dia you maniage "to eat? A. Mr. Wiranie oaiae up thiere sevetral times with a dish, of gniiei or someitlhijiig to eat, anidl I refused to eat it, ajid| he didn't umchaiiii me; I euipipose he would have unohadned me wihile I eat, but I didn't oaire what became of me at t!he time; I was deepondenit. Q. Have a bed? A. Tihere was a part of an old ma had me in tbe solitary he called me unspeakable language; it is too dirty to mention, 'the language he used to me, before anybody; he insiulted my people, too, without knowing any of their baisiness; he called my mother vile names and my sister vile namesi before me; he told me I came from bad people, and everything; my people are well respected people and live in the city. Q. What is your business now ? A. Pa.per hanger. Q. Were, you ever convicted of any other offense than the one you have referred to ? A. Not before I went to the reformatory; I got myself into a little trouble after that, a petit larceny case, but that was all. Q. Were you convicted of that ? A. I served six months for that. Q. Since you left* the refotrmatoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long ago was that ? A. About ten months after I left the reformatory. Q. Did! y*ii defend that charge? A. I didn't plead' guUty. Q. You were tried ? A. I was tried. Q. By a jury ? A. No; by the court. Q. Were you guilty of that offense ? A. I wasn't exactly guilty, of the offense, but I was complicated in it» Q. Do you wish to explain it ? A. I don't think it would be necessary to explain it. Q. Were you guilty of the first charge that was made against yon ? A. I was; yes, sir. ' Q. Where were you bom ? A. Sixty-seventh street. New York city. / Q. Do you remember what was Wahly's name ? A. James Wahly. Q. Do you know how that name is spelled ? A. I think it was spelled W-a-h-1-y. Q. I am requested to ask you just where this paddling that you have referred to, when you saw other inmates referred to, where that occurred and where you were at the time? A. I was in about th.e sixth cell from the end of where that post was, about The fifth or sixth, T don't remember exactly which; as near as I can ,guess it happened in what they called No. 4 at the time. Q. The paddling occurred in another cell from the one you were jD ? A. 11; occurrpij JB the hallway; it was a private hallway 804 tliat was locked up, so tiie sound coiUdn.'t be heard outside from the walls. Q. The paddling tou referred to upon that occasion occurred in the hall ? A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were in the cell ? A. While I was in a cell, I could look right out and see it; the other party could see the first party paddled, too, and he lives in the city now. ' Q. Can you give the date of that ? A. I can't exactly give the correct date ; I never kept account. Q. Was No. 4 what they called the bath-room ? A. No, sir; no bath-room. Mary A. McGlynn, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you ever visit the Elmira refonnatoiy ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have an interview with Mr. Brockway while there ? A Yes, sir. Q. In reference to what ? A. My brother, who was there. Q. Please state Avhen it was you made that visit ? A. About the time, I think, my brother was sent there; in, May, 1879; that I am not positive of; I went there two months after; I remember ' going the Fourth of July, as it was the only day I could stay away from business; the fourth fell on Sunday; I think it was 1879; I \\ ent there in Jiily of that year, two months after he went there; that was my first visit; I did not see Mr. Brockway that time, but I saw his brother. Q. Did you see your brother at the time ? A. Y'es ; I saw my brother; he was in the third grade, and they refused to let me see him, but I met one of the board of managers, and I think his name was Tousey; I am not sure of that name. Q. That is your impr^sion ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You saw at least one of the board of management, as you, understood it ? A. I met him coming up the steps, and they refused to let me see my brother; I told him I came from Newi. York, and I conldn't afford to come again, and I must see him, and he went back. Q. Did you see your brother upon that occasion? A. I saw my brother for about seven minutes; he was brought downstairs to see me. Q. What, if anylihing, did you see indicating that he had been severely punished? A. I didn't seie' ajnythang on that'diay lait all. Q. Was anything said to you by this memiber of the board of to your brother ? A. No; not any; Mr. Tousey, if that was the management, or by any of tihle offi cers of the ref oirtaiatloiry in relaibito name, simply interceded for me to see him. 80g Q. So far as yomsiaw you hme stated' about aU that oicioiirred? ^. On iStrnd ftmt visit. Q. Did: you visit tlie refoi^matory tte second timie? A. Ye®, sir. Q. Whien was thkuti?' A. I can/t tell; I tried to think last night; ihis thing I have tried to drive out of my mind the last twelve w tliirteen years, but I remember seeing him uptstaiiw on th.e second floor; my broitJier then looked very badly, and there was a nan sat in a cage like, and he could talk to me, but he couldn't )efore Brockwajy's brotber. Q. Upon that occasion did you see Mr. Brockway? A. Yes; I saw Mr. Brockway when I came downistairs, saw him in his office. Q. Did you have any conversation with him? A. Yes; I did, 3Ut I can't remember just exactly now what the conversation was >n that second visit. j Q. Was there anything! pairticular occurred at that time» which ^ou now wish toi sitlate? A. Not on that second visit. Q. Did you visit the reformatory again? A. No; my nuother lid; my mother and sister. ; Q..Did you, at any time, have a conveonsation ^ith Mr. Brock- way? A. Yes;; I did. Q. When was it? A. I would have to^ te'U you about my mother ind sister going up there after that., ' ^ Q. You may state what you know about your mother and sister going there, but you meedh't state anything they said; did your mother and sister go to the reforinatory? A. Yes; my mother ajid aister went to the reformatory; I had a petition of pardon taken out; there was an inmate of thajt place discharged wrote to our place that he could come and tell something about my brother. Q. As I undierstand your| statement so far, you made an effort to get your brother released? A^ Yes, sir. \ Q. In connection with that effort did you see Mr. Brockway? A. I oorresponded with htm. j Q. Have you any of his letters? A.i No', sir; I haven't. Q. Have they been dest.'royed? A. Yes, sir; I know when my brother came home, before I took him home, I destroyed them; I had no wish to keep them. Q. I underatood you to say a moment ago that! you saw Mr. Brockway? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see him in connection] with your effort to get your brother pardoned or released? A. I did; yes, sir. Q. You may state what was said between* you? A. My per- sonal interview with him was in January, when I went up to take my brother dqwn, when this man came and told me he was dying, after my mother had come back; Mr. Brockway had prom- ised my mioitlier wheni the boiaird of managers would meet — 806 Q. They obj^ to any^ing that was toM you, they insist you shall state what you saw and what you know; youi went up your- self to the reformatory? A. Yes, sir; tiharti was in Januajry, I think from the twentieth to twentyi-fourth of 1881 ; wlien I went up to him I tad — the day before Mr. Brockway !had telegraphed me; I telegrapbed hiTn would I go up after my brother; he told me my brother was dying and couldn't leave at' all; what dis- position he would make of tbe body; I telegraphed I was cooning there; I got there early that morning, and I went up and saw my brother was still aUve, and didn't .thiiik he would live during the day; I telegrapihed my mother I had foundl him aMve and wouldn't leave the place until I brought his body, dead or aJive; they told me Mr. Brockwiay was in Binghamton; I went in on my knees and implor^, saying h.e had promised my mother he would be home; I went on my knees for his wife, and sisite^, and his mother and mother-in4aw, and it was througb tShedr influemce he bad promised to let my broitiher go; he senit for me and brought me to his oflflce, and asked me he told me my brother wouldn't live to go to Jerisey; be saM, "For a young woman like you it is a great task to itake himl; will you promise me you wUl consult no lawyeirsl, paaitiiculiarly Howe & Hummel," and I gave himl my woa'd I wouldn't; all I wianited was to get my brother home to die; the day I dressed and) went up in his room my birother's back was a mass of soires and bruisies down almost from the shoulder blades to the lower part of his back, and he told me himself, his dying words — Q. (Mr. Litchfield.) Was your brother dying at tbe lame he told yoiu about bis wounds? A. Yes|, sir. Q. Was he aware he was aboujt to die? A. Yes, sir; he knew. it. Mr. litdhifl^d. — We wiU take the sitaitement. Mr. Stamdhfleld. — Over our exception. The witness.— He told me the day I went up there, I was sitting in his office with him, and I banded, when he was brought dowii, ithlait was on the occasdioni of my first visit — when I banded to him a little scapula^- medal beloniginig to the Catholic chuincih, Brookway's brother — Mr. StaQctfleld. — Is this competenit* proof? Judge GriLbiert. — She is now sitating what occurred between betr and Mr. Brockway 's brother; the point I desire to •understand OT' know is this, wbetiher Mr. Brockway's brother, ati thiat tStoe was one of the officers connected with the reformatoa'y? Mr. ^tanchfieid. — He bas always been tbe transfer officer. Mr. litdhfield. — Then what be said would be admissiiible, being an offioeir. 807 Thje "witness. — My broitiliieiii sipoke. — Q. Yooi starbed laonaetMiig thlait occiuiriried wJiesoi Mr. Brockway's another was presemt and whefn your own bTOthiep wajs ^piresieiiit? ^:. That wa)S on the oocaision of my finest visit, wheM I wais sitting n ttue office. Mr. Staxtchifleld. — Ovier oiur objeotioin and esioeiptioii. The witness. — I handed Mm in' 'the enveloipe a little scapulia; Mjr, Brocikwiay's brother got up and tore it out of my hands; I svas paissing it to him, and I took' it out of the - envelope and showed him what it was; my brother went up staiirs land made some reanarkis; and he was punished; he was put into the cell. Q. What, if anything, did Mr. Brockway's brother say? A. , That was laJl that he said to me when" he took this scaipula out of my hand. . ; Q. What did he do with it? A. I don't know what he did with Lt; he told me I couldn't give it to him; I don't know whether rhe netuimed it to me or not, or kept it; I am not sure of that. ' Q. He is^d you couldn't give it to your brother? A. He isiadd I couldn't give it to him. Q. Didn't he say toi you it was agadnsit the rules? A. No; he didn't ,siay anything of the kind; I dion't rememibleir of his having any talk; while he might have said such a thing, I dom^t onemjember his saying isiuch a thing; I know he snatched it out of my hands and, of course, my ibrother felt badly about it. Q. After that what oocuirred, was your brother taken to somje pa,rtli of the irefomiiatoiry, to another part of the refonnatoiry; you didn't see your brother punSished? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know anything about that ? A. Only what he told me himself; he was dying. Q. A inoment ago you commenced' telling what occurred or what was said between you and your brother at the time you say he was dying; the committee say that you may state what was said and what occiu-red. Mr. Stanchfleld. — O^^er our objection and exception. A. For taldng this scapula of me he was punished and put in solitary confinement, Thanksgiving Day, that was the last day I remembered he told me he was punished; he was strung up by the hands so his toes didn't touch the floor; notwithstanding Mr. tirockway told me he was in the third grade, I would wiite every week to Mr. Brockway. Q. Simply state what your brother said to you upon this occa- sion, that you have referred to ? A. He expected me to go and see him on Thanlisgiving Day; I had wrote him I would come. Q. What the committee say is this: That you may state to them what your brother said to you ? A. That is what I am trying to tell you. 808 Q. Did he tell you these various things you are referring to ? A. Those very words; he told me on. ThaaiksgiTing Day he was strung up by the thumbs. Q. Strung up how ? A. By the hands, at least; he was tied lip by the hands so his feet didn't touch the floor, and my brother was glTen a task he couldn't do, and I wrote to Mr. Brockway innumerable times aelring to give him a lighter task. Judge Gilbert — That may be stricken out. The witness-. — He ws® strong up by the hands; T have tried for all those years to forget those tilings; he was sitrung up, and I solemnly swear he told me on his dying bed his feet didn't touch the floor; whethei" it Avas his hands or thumbs I couldn't tell; he told me he had a ball and- chain on his foot, and kept for three weeks in solitary confinement; I swear to that before G-od; after going to confession and receiving tlie solemn communion of the Catholic church ; he told me, also, he had three hemorrha,ge8, and he was forced to go back in the shop working on brushes ; I went to Brockway and asked him to take away the task, because the binashes were killing him; he was carried in the hospital three times. Q. How soon after the Thanksgiving Day did your brother die ? A. I brought him home from the twentietji to the twenty-fourth of January; I went up there some day between the twentieth and twenty -fourth of January ; I got there at 9 o'clock in the morning, and I left that night at 12 o'clock ; my brother died less than four weeks; I brought him home Sunday; four weeks from the following Sunday he was buried. Q. Where were you when you had this conversation with your brother, when he told you the facts ? A. In, the house I lived in; in my home, because I took care of him at night; I sat up all night long with my brother, and coming back on the train, and Henry Ward Beecher's brother and a party gave me all the assistance possible; on the train he related some of those things to me coming back. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. We are trying to get at the dying statement; remarks made three or four weeks prior to his death are not what we wish; did he make any statements to you when he knew he was dying and actually on his death-bed ? A. He had to be carried out, and he supposed he was dying; Mr. Brockway telegraphed me he was dying. Q. He did not die until several months after that ? A. Three weeks. 809 Q. If he made any statement on his death-bed, not weeks before, but tdwards the end of his life ? A. I would call that, two or three days ahead; you don't mean the last hour, but every day; it wa« a thing he repeated to us, the cnuelties he was treated. Q. Did he make amy statement the day of his death? A. He didn't lose coneciousneas until the moment he departed. Q. Did he repeat it the day of his death? A. I wouldn't say he did that, but I will say he did it the night before, from 10 •o'clock until 6. Q. What did he say to you the night before he died about the oauHe of his injuriesi? Mr. Stanohfleld. — 'Hiat) m over our objection and exception. A. I don't think I uniderstand you quite. (Question repeated.) A. Because he was beaten. Q. About, his being strung up by the hahdis? A. Thiat I will solemnly swear he told me on Thanksgiving Day, whether he did afterwards or not I couldn't say. Q. He didn't isiay anything that night? A. I coiuldn't say; it was just that night; this was thirteen yeaois ago, and I haven't tried to keep tho»e things in my memory. Q. We don/t want what he said four months pirioir; I think that ought to be stricken oiut. By Jndge Grlberti: . , Q. Can you call to mind anything that your brother said to you daring the last conversation that you had' with him, or the cooii- versation that yOu had with Mm; the night before he died, relat- ing to the manner in which he was treated in the reformatory? A. Just exactly what T told you; I don't say it was just the nlgiht before he died, but it was during the time he was home; within a week's time. i Q. It was' after he was given up; it wasn't expected by anyone he would live; didn't expect himsielf to live? A. Father Bloomer telegraphed me and Mr. BrOckway telegraphed me my brother couldn't live until morning. Q. Can you state with any degree of deflniteness just when this conversation that you are referring to occurred between you and your brother? A. It occurred most every day from the time that he came home; he came home the twenrty-foturth of January, until the twentieth of February; I cotuldni't state just what day; it was aai every day talk; they didn't think I would reach Jersey City with him that night. , Q. When you took him from the reformaitory at that time, were there then bruises upon his back? A. His back was a mass of bruieea at that time. 102 .- .-^ Q. Did you treat idiem in any way; did you do amything for him? A. Kept vaseline and linen, om him. 1 Q. While you were tiius treaitlng his back did h.e make any statements in reference to those matters? A. The very state ments I told you, telling me how he got them; that he was abused. Q. How high up on his back did tihey extend? A. I should say about the shoulder blades ot below the shoulder blaides; I should say about the shoulder blades. Q. How fair down? A. I should say down to the thighs ahnoBt; down to the small Of the ba/ck. Q. The hips? A. Just about the hip part. Q. Did he say why he was punished? A. Yes; he was pun- ished One time for asking a boy for a drink of water in the brush- shop; he was punished another time for nofi dodnig his task; he told me he wasn't able; I believe the timeis he was punished par- ticTilarly was for not being able to accomplish the task given him. Q. Did he, in this conversation, refer to Father Bloolmeir? A. I don't remember tha* he did; I couldn't say that; I don't remember. Q. Did he refer to anyone a.s having seen his back? A. No; I don't think he did; there was an inmate in the place that saw his back that wa« there at the time; when he came to be talcen home; I dressed him myself; I was afraid taking him out of the bed; Father Bloomer came in and said it was a very wrong thing for him to die on The way; I put an extra shirt on him. Q. It seems before you' took htm out of the reformatory you had a conversation with some one in reference to the condition of yom' brother ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was Ml'. Brockway or any officer connected with the reform- atory present ? A. No, sir; it Avas up in the room off the hospital; we were alone with this inmate of the nefoimatory. Q. Did yon have a conference with the reformatory physician with reference to the condition of your brother before you removed him from the reformatory ? A. I think the doctor came in there; t don't remember the name; I am not quite sure, but it seems to me the doctor came in the room. Q. Wa« anything said between you and your brother, or between you and the doctor, upon that occasion in reference to your brother's condition, or in reference to the prop-iety of moving him ? A. No; I don't remember that; with Mr. Brockway there was; he told me my brother was dying from consumption. Q. Did the doctor, upon that occasion, examine your brother ? A. I don't think so; I don't remember that. Q. Or prescribe for him ? A. No; not before I came away. 811 » ,Q. How old was your brother whan lie was sent to the refoimai- tory ? A. Nineteen. Q. What was his physical condition ? ' A. Strong, healthy yeung man; best of health. Q. About what was his weight ? A. I couldn't siay; he was very tall. Q. About how tall ? A. I should say then he was about flye f t>et seven. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did your brother have a physiciain when you brought him to your housie ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he pronounce to be the trouble with your brother ? A. Dr. Leaihy and Dr. Patrick B. Clark, they said he had — I don't remember what they said exactly; we told them 'how he had been treated. Q. What did the physicians say your brother was dying of; was it consumption ? A. It wasn't consumption; I don't remember what they said. Q. Did either of those physicians examine his back ? A. Cer- tainly they did; both of them examined his back. Q. Are those physicians living now ? A. Both are desid; one died soniie time tMs isummer. Q. When did you fljnst see youjr bWjithler'Bl back? A. The night I went there to take him home. - Q. He was stiU in the reformatory at that time ? A. Yes. Q. You saw his back whUe he was in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. iQ. Are you sure they were not bed sores ? A. My brother wasn't ia bed five days; though he was dying on his feet; he was in bed when I went to see him, but he hadn't been in his bed, as I understand, five days before that; those things I couldn't swear to, because I don't know. Q. Did Mr. Brockway tell you Thanksgiving Day he wajs dying of consumption ? A. No; I didn't see him Thanksgiving Day; I wasn't there; I had promised to go and see my brother, but I didn't go ; he said on the day I took my brother away he said that. Q. When you took your brother to your house did he go to his bed then ? A- We had to carry him out; my brother couldn't walk; he had two or three keepers carry hina out to the sleigh; my bi^other couldn't sit up. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You referred to some letters that you received from Mr. Bnoctoway and thatt weinei diesitroiyedi by yoiui; did Mr. Biioickwlay> in; 812 those letters, aay amytMnig ini reference to thfii owixiMoiii of yooir bmthier or in refeneuoe ito hi0 coiiidiuicti oip in neferenlc© to thje pmiisilLniieiite lie hM Mioeived? A. No; Ihe never refierred to amy puni'sihmenit. i Mr. Stauidhifleld. — Thaifc is over owr oibjeotiiota as unfaiLri proof; we corald! hsuve had the lettersi hiere if you hJaid given us potice. Judge Gilbert. — As I undiemtand tlie rule, amd I am trying to keep IMlh sdles close to tihte irulei, it m i\hm, wheire thle letter or document has ibeen destroyed that th.leni seoonidairy evidence may be given in reference to itL Mr. StaiQchfld.'d. — You don't ciadm thait secomdary evidence is admojsisSibleuinitil you give us notice tbi producie it. We may have the origimai, and we ajre entitled toi have it go upon the leoordi. Judge Griibert — I thinik the papen sent to thie wittaiessi muist be negBiiided as the principal paper. Mir. StaiacOifield. — We aire emtitled to have notice to proidiuoe tlhja copy. ' MJr. Idtokfield. — By whom were these lettersi written? Judge GUbeirit. — By Mr. Brockway; th.e o'bjectiloni they nadse is we can't give secondary evidenice of the coratenitsi of thle letters withoult having flnsit seirved upon them a) notice to prodtiice what thiey caJi the original letters or copdesi I think her statements of the contentsi of the letter can be given. Mr. Litchfleld. — If the evidence isi not matariial we had better disipens© with it, las it is a great many yeajnsi ago. Mr. Stamdhfield. — I ask hierei in order to pirotect the legal rights, to strike out thie tesrtamony of the laist witneasi that was taken, upon the theory that it was evi'dtenice adtaoiissibile in con- templation of death, upon the ground that it does not come within the (rules thiat the courts lay down as appMicaMe to that sort of evidenca I undansftanid thie rule that surrountdsi that isort of evidence is a very stringent oma Tlwoi thing must occur, a man must believe he is about to die, and death) miuat ensue. If a man makes a istialtement to-day in contemplation of approadhiing death, suiriPaunded with thtei requisite formalitiesi, and to-monrow stould: be killed by a railroad tnain, or a week hence, and die from some other causei, it woiild be incomjpetent evidence. Thisi examinatloai soattters the dying decimation all along for a periodl of three months; with some experience in the praotilce of law, I do not think any such evidence ajsi ithlat is competent. Mr. Litohiield. — It seemsi to th.e committee very muich; as Ma\ Stanchiield says. The tesftimoay given by this witnesBi as to the statements made duiring that period ought to be striloken out. Jud^ GUbert — As I understond hen, 8h.e said these etate- ments were miade duxlngi the last week of his illuessi, amd eihlei aim 813 states tiiait wlieii sh.© ixmk Tiittii tomie sihle mw the evidence tupoini him: of isieveirie pimielmiemt, and tttait iti wajs in coimecitibiiii wiith tlhlat thaib the staibenuerabsi wepe made, smA. undeiri a rnilinig -whiclii Was been made by this committee, it seemsi to m© tha* the evidtenice is proper, at least, under thait (Puling it is propier, fofP the reason it wiaa mlaide at the tunie when she was examiminig the bruises that were upon him that had been recently made. Mir. Stamchfleld. — That isi not the evidence, if the commission please, we do not disiagnee upon the law, but we do not agiree upon the facts. The fact that ish© saw hisi back, I do not asik to strike out; I ask to sttrike out what she saysi he told her principally upon the BaUroad train and other occasions coming down' here.. You asked her if it wias the night before, and she. told you she couldn't state any thing upon the subject; Mr. Uitohfleld. — Bhe says he did make certain statements the night before he died ; I think those may stand. Judge Grilbert.. — And in that connection sihe said that those statements were made during the last week of his Ulness tliat' she nefienred to. While occupying the position) I do I can't very weU take a very posiiitive position one way or the other in refer- ence to this matter; I must leave it ahnosit^ entirely to the judg- ment or discretion' of the committee, but my view of it is that the evidence it is piroper for two reasons; one isi that these con- versations were 'brought out or oiOOuiTed in conneotioin with the exa'mination which she made or the treatment which she gave, or the facts which 'she learned with reference to the marte upon his person, and that if the cO'niverBations whi'ch she referred to occuirreid dtiring the last week otf his illness, when it is conceded by aJl, by Mr. Brookway and the boy's friends, that he was upon his death-bed, it seemsi to me it is proper. Mi'. Litohflel'd. — I tried to get her to state definitely .when her brother made the statement to her, and the only one I could pin her dbwn was to thtei night before he died. That undoubtedly can stand. It seems to me statements made by her brother at the time she j&rst saw hikn and first examined' hisi back and saw his injuries, that might stand. All conversationis olccurring betweenl covering a peribd of three months we think ought to be stricken out. Judge Gilbert. — If it appears that these statements were repeated or made 'd'uring the last week of his illness^ that is, dur- ing 'ihe last week of his life, with full knowledge that he was upon his death-bed', it seems to me it would be proper to allow them. to stand. i Dr. Smith. — To my mind she did not connect 'them at all. They were scattereid oiver a lonig period. Thanksgiving Day, I 814 underisitiaiiid: her, was tJie one, and yetl slie says she didn't see him ThamkHgiving Day; she scatters 'tthem over the whole period. In regard to the injuries she saw on his ibaiok, I shotuld think would be very incompetent; may have been sores, siuldh as are very colmmon with that class of persoms. , Jndige Gilbert. — I undersitood her flnsit as ymi did, but after- ward I undersitood her to say he told ha* that som.e of the injuriesi were received upon Thaniksgiving Day; She didn't mean to siay she had oomversatiouis with him Thaniksgiving Day. Dr. Smitlh. — M is all so indefinite. I Mr. Litchfield. — We will decide to strike out the conversations held between, but taking the remarks ftos* made — strike out all that occurred between the time when she flus* examinedl his back, and the last conversation she had! the night prior to his death, whem he made certain statements to hen with full knowl- edge of his death. i George S. Ackemman^ being duly siworn, testified': Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. One hundred andl sevenitly Bleecker street. - ' . Q. What is your occupation? A. Broommaker. ' Q. Were you ever in the Elmtra reformatoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. When? A. In 1881 to abont 1885. Q. Prom what place were you sent? A. From New York by Judge Smyth, Q. On wha-fl charge? A. Grand larceny. Q. On wha/t plea? A. Guilty. Q. When were yooi discharged from the refotrmatooy? A. I couldn't give the date, but I think 1885. i Q. How long were you confined in the reformjatory? A. About four years, I think. ' Q. Were you punished whUe you were there? A. Yes, sir; several times. Q. How? A. By being beaten with a rabber hoisie and by being hit in the :^ace. Q. In what cell or place in the ref oi-matory did the punishments occur? A. In the solitary all punishments occurred in my time. Q. Describe the cell called the solitary? A. It was off the guard-room floor some distance; I couldn't say whether the north wing or south wing, but going upstaire I was punished right at the staii-s; hung up at the stairs. Q. Describe the first punishment you received ? A. The first punishment I received I couldn't do my task, and I was put in 815 there; I was giTen a lecture and let go; the next time I was taken in there and beaten .with a rubber hose which was soaked in a pail of wa^er; stripped naked, hung up against the stain baaiisters with the cuffs across an iron bar at the first landing of the steps. Q. How long was the chain connecting the cuffs ? A. About a foot long, I sihould think. Q. When in that position did you stand on the floor ? A. No; I stood on a small three-legged stool, and the stool was takem from underneath me. Q. During the punishment your feet didn't rest upon anything? A. No; when I was punished and swinging, Mr. Beach held on to my feet so the body should not sway too much; that is about all T can describe of the punishment; I didn't know when I got through with it, I seemed to be dizzy. Q. Did you become unconscious ? A. Yes; when they let me down they set me down on the floor, on a stool, I suppose, until I came to, but tha,t isn't the severest punishment I received. Q. How many times were you taken to this solitaay and pun- i&hed ? A. Several times; one time I was taken two or three times a week. • Q. Can you give iabout the n,umber of times in all ? A. No, sir; I could not. Q. How often during one week ? A. The most was about three or four times during one week. Q. You may describe the sever^t punishment you received ? A. I was paddled with a rubber hose and let to go out in the shop again, and being angry at the time, I had big task to do, and of course I couldn't do it; they got talking to me there, and cut out the stitches; they weren't quite to the number of brooms; I told the foreman I would break his head if he cut out any more; I wajs called up on the stand, and there Mr. Kennedy spoke to me, and I admitted I told Mr. Atwater I would break his head if he cut out any more brooms; they called Mr. Beach in and when I admitted I had said it he hauled off and hit me in the mouth, breaking my teeth. Q. Wbat did he strike you with ? A. With his fist; knocked out aJl these upper teeth; Dr. Wey set the jaw at the time. Q. Were you afterwards treated by Dr. Wey for the injuries inflicted at the time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know when that occun-ed ? A. No, sir. Q. When was it ? A. June, 1883 ; Mr. Kennedv waa in the shop. Q. Can you name anyone in particular who was present ? A. Fellow named Walsh, Johnson and several others; Woods; lots of them were present at the time. 816 Q. Wliat did Dr. Wey do by wa^^ of treatiiig you ? A. He treated me very kindly. Q. By way of treating the injury ? A. He drawed up the teeth and fastened the low^er ones together there. Q. With what ? A. I don't Imow whether sUk or wire. Dr. Wey examines the witness' mouth. By Dr. Smith: Q. Dr. Wey afterwards pulled out the root ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was that all done with on,e blow ? A. One blow. Q. What wag the effect on his face ? A. I don't know; it was sore. Judge Gilberl . — ^\Tiat eyidence of injury do you find ? Dr. Wey. — The absence of teeth; whether they were abstracted f 01- decay or not I can't say ; there is no evidence of fracture. Judge Gilbert. — Do you mean to say there is nothing inidd- cuting his teeth may have been knocked out or broken by a blow. Dr. Wey. — Nothing that indicates lait the presieoiti time; no, sir. Judge Gilbert. — Do you mean to say his teethi may not have been knocked out by a blow? Dr. Wey. — .They might have been. By Judge Gilbert): Q. Now, you miay give the pajriiou'larisi, with reference to the injury, if you can state them more definitely than what you have? A. I don't know as I can srtjaite them more defini'tely beoauise my jaw was broken lait the time and tthe uppefl teetth wene broken off, and I told Dr. Wey ait the time I got a punch in the jaw from Deputy Beach, andl I told him I was supported! by Mr. Kennedy and they didn't seem to cane much; Dr. Wey treated me very kind. Q. What effect did thtei blow have upon yon in refeirence to knocking you down? A. Seemed! to stun nae, everyrtihing eeemied to be going around. Q. Where were you when you received thie blow? A. On the keeper's strand. Q. Standling or isititing? A. Standing. Q. What was the effect of the blow uponi you? A. It was situnning. Q. Did it knock you down? A. It knocked me down off the stand on to the floor against one of the broom vises. Q. Then what, if anything, occurred? A. I wlais taken in the solitary shortly after I had my jaw fixed and was punidhed ithat wiay, and I nemember being punished with a rublbem hose for 817 picking up la ciigai' stainp itibtene; G-rwver Qlervelainidi waia Tiaiiting tihape one tume. Q. AdPter TeoeiTing "tlie bloiw uikmii your jaw you wieire! taken to "the solitairy and punisihjed? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Whene were you struck at that time? A. I was struck on my nadced i>ension. Q. On your back? A. Yea, sir. Q. Anywhere else? A. No, siir. Q. Is tJiat all you diesire to state in reference to thlat punish- ment? A. ThjaJt is all I desire to state iu referetnce ito that punislunenrtL Q. You say you were taken to the solitary after thlat? A. Yes, sir; I had. solitary conflnement for a long time. Q. Have you any complain to make or any .statement to make in reference to the manner in which you were punished in the soMtaiy after this oeourrenioe you nefer to? A. No., sir. ■Q. You say while you were confined at Ehnira in the reforma-' tory you were confined in the isoiitaries? 'A. Yes, isir. Q .How were you confined? A. Locked into a dark oeU .there. Q. Were you chained? A. No, sir; once I was chained to the waM. Q. Foir how long a time? A. I .should judge about two or three hours or more. Q. Only a short' time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Par what? A. For refusing to do my^ work. Q. Do you know the neaison why your hands were fastened? A. I don't know no reason why. Q. Were your hands chained? A. Yea, isir; to one solid ring in the solitairy. Q. Whereabouts in the sOlitairy was the ring? A. In thie laide wall. Q. How Mgh up? A. About three or four feiet. Q. Only chained there for ttiree or four hours? A. I should judge about that time. Q. Were you ever confined in the isolitairy for any length of time? A. Yes, sir; three weeks one time, Q. What was your food that time? A. Hash, bread and water and coffee. Q. Were you ever confined in the solitairy ajt any other time? A. No, 'Sir. Q. What were you confined! in the solitary that time for? A. For labor and conduct, I think. Q. Your conduct had been' reported? A. Yee^ sir; talking and out of plaice in the shop; I would talk to the fo>reinan without thinking amd ttoen I would be marked' for it. 103 818 Q. Since yoai left the reformatoi'y have yon liccn in tlie lioispital? A. Yes, sir; most of ilie lime; I was undei^ l'n»res«)r [)ani(4s' care and sex-ei-al pi'ofessonsi in r.ioolclvn. Q. To be ti-eated for what? A. For epileptic spells, but I never had amiything like that in my life before I went onitl there. Q. Were yoni ever convieted of any otiher offeanse than the one you were sent to Elmira foi'? A. ~No, sir. Q. Yon say yoii don't knoiw whac yodU were lockedl up in the soli- tary for, or chained in th." s<)lit;\,ry for? A. It miust have been fk)r conduct and labor and nothing elvse; it ooiuMn't ha.re been. , (l AAliat were yoai c(mvictied for? A. Gi*aiid' laroemy. Q. ^A^lat was ycrar plea? A. Guilty. Q. "V\Tiat was it that you stole? A. I took a large satchel of clothing and things fi'om my employeir; I had been engaged in a house. Q. Didn't you rob another man's house named Banman at Wood Haven, Long Island? A. Yes, sir. ii. Taken in Ids employ? A. Yes, sir. (^ And afterwards robbed a snbvsequent employer? A. Yes, sir. (.i. 'i'ou say you were accused of other offenses? A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were in the refoi-matory you were put into the red suit how many different times? A. I couldn't tell you; a great many tiiiiHs. Q. You would '\\ork your way up tlo the secon^d or higheist gi'ade? A. 'Ilie second gTade w ;i» about thei highest I ever reached until pretty near the time I came out; then they puti me in the first grade. v Q. Did yon stay in the refoimiiaitoiry the maMmum lemgtli of time yon might 1m^ imprisoned for? A. I didm't know the maxi- mTian term. Q. Y'ou say you never were put in the higheat' grade? A. Once. Q. 'S'^'ere yon in that g^ade when you were discharged? A. No; I was in the second grade. Q. Did you e%'er act as an imnate officer in amy way there? A. No, sir. Q. You were charged Avith being insolent to the foreman, weren't you? A. Yes, sir; I was supposed to.; the time I told him I would break his head; that was about the only time. Q. For that you were punished? A. Y''e8, sir. Q. After you were discharged didn't you write to Mr. Brock- way and to the board of managers? A. One time, I think. Q. Did you keep a copy of the letter? A. No, sir. Q. Do you remember what you wrote? A. No, sir. Q. Do you reco'llecft you expressed to them your thanks; that you thanked them for the kind manner in which you had been treated? A. I probably might have^ I don't know, 819 Q. Do yoii know why you dome tbat if tlioise sitatements, wMcli you have made were true? A. I wrote it while my father was looking at me, I suppose. i Q. Look at that letter and see if you wrote thait? A. Yes, sir; I wrote that. Q. Are the statemenrts contained in that letter true? A. Yes; I wrote that. Q. Was that written before your parole expired? A. Yeisi, sir; it was wrd'tlfcen before; that was writteni while I have been there. Q. Will yon read the letter? A. (Eeaditnig.) " Dear Sir. — I take my pencil to 'write yoiui these few lines, hoping that you will believe them foir I nefvea" would! otr ever did speak an unttruth to you. Dear sir, I have been pretty Imd about this month ftotr I received three yellow reports, but as true as I Jive I will make a solemn promise to you from this day, the eighteenth January, you shall never see me cranky or saucy again. I, have made a fool ol myself for three years here, but by God's help I will be honest and industrious and sober man. Dear sir, consider what I have learned here; when I came here I could no't write my name oir tell you how much twice nine was; now I am in the highest class and near a hundred per cent. I now have thre^ ninesi and two eights in finst grade, and hope to get my freedom by the April board. I love aD.d worship j'ou as I would a father, for you have been a father to me, and I shall never forget you again, and will obey you even when I become a free man, but I have no desire to leave here yet to go into the cold, world to struggle. Dear.gir, I will never in all my life tell you a lie ; I will sooner be beaten to death than be false and deceitful to a true ' friend, an unworthless prisoner. Believe me to be eVer, "Your humble servant. "GEORGE AOKERMAN." Q. That was written while you were in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many months before you were paroled ? A. I couldn't tell you. Q; About how many times ? A. I couldn't tell you, because I can't Judge how many. Q. How came you to write that letter ? A. I don't know; I must have been in pretty good humor at the time. Q. You weren't in such good hmnor that you couldn't teU the truth, were you ; is the substauce of that letter true ? A. No; part of it ain't true, I admit; I didn't admire him as a father, because hg Wja® top tgugh and rough a father, I should think. 820 Q. Is there any other reason you ean give for wiriting such a letter ? A. :So; 1 can't; I don't know what reason I woaild give; T thouglit at the time it woiild give me a chance to get out sooner. (2. Wasn't it claimed — \\ere you accusied of being a mastur- bator ? A. No; I wasn't. Q. Nothing of that kind ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you write a letter to the doctor ? A. I think I did. Q. (Presenting same.) Will you look at that; is that your hand- writing ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now look at those, both of those in your hand ? A. Yesi, -sir. Q. Written where ? A. Both by me; written in cell 416. Q. Both written in the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. ii. Will you read those ? A. I won't read those aloud. Q. They are in your handwriting ? A. Yes. Q. Are the statements in those two letters just shown you ti'ue ? A. Yes, sir;, every one of them. Q. Don't you aijmit in those lettere you are a masturbator ? A. Yes, sir; I do in them. (l That is true ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't .\ou state a moment ago that you weren't one and weren't accused ? A. I didn't think of anything like that at the time. - . (l (Presenting same.) Is that your production ? A. No, sir. (I. Isn't your signature at the bottom of it '! A. That is my signature, but I didn't write that; I know who wrote it, Q. Wlio ? A. A boy by the name of Commo. Q. Wh\' did you sign it ? A. I doubt if that is my signing; I doubt that signature very much. Q. What do you say ? A. That is not my signature. Q. Did you ever see it before ? A. Yes, sir. Q. , , here did you see it ? A. It was thrown in my cell as Commo passed the door. Q. By one of the inmates ? A. Yes. I Q. Are yon positive of that ? A. Positive. Q. Will yon look at the fost one and see what you oani siay to that ; i^n't that in your handwi'iting? A. Noi, sir ; I don't remembm' writinig thait.; it isi not my hamdwritinig. Q. Do you know how Mr. Broickway om the officers came by these two papers? A. No; I can't remember. Q. You rememiber it was thrown intto your cell? A. Yes; but I can't remember hoiw it was) taken from me; after it wasi taken from me it was either left in the cupboard or taken from me in the line. Judge Gilbert. — I offer tihlese letters in evidemce. 821 Q. (PresemtSng isame.) Wh,a(t do jnu say now in refiesrence to that plaiper? A. I say it isi not miy signaitnine. Q. Wliy did yoai say a- moment agoi, yom didni't tMnk it was yaunsi? A. Because I know, it ism,'t. Q. You know now it is noit? A. I know by the way I signed; I didn't understand the woird mlaisturb'atiom arti the time. Q. You understooid the meaning' of the woi^d when you wrote those letters? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Youjr' memory iis pi'etty good, but you had forgotten? A. I know of sending themi toi Dr. Wey personally. Q. Yoiu rememibeir thiait well? A. Yes), sir. By Mr. LitcMeld: Q. &« back toi the tame you claim ito have been struck by this officei" in the mouth; hbw soon after you were so eifcmck did you show your mouth to Dr. Wey ? A. Same day. Q. ilow soon latfter he saiw it did he draw the stum.ps of your teetih? A. I think the following afternoon. Q. Gk) back to the time you say you Tverie paddled; I under- istood you to say you W;ei-e fastened by the hatods and tied up to what?" A. To the first landing of the iron stairs. Q. You sfpo'ke about a stool? A. I had to stand on that stool to reach thle cross-bar. Q. Was that sitool kicked out aooidentaJIly? A. It was taken away by the deputy. Q. So you were .left hanging? A. Yes. Q. How were you ^suspended? A. By the wniste. Q. By the handcuffs? A. Yes; isiir. John McCoirmiok, being duly swoom, testifled: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you live? A. Brooklyn; 142 Gold. Q. Were you ever in the Elnmra reformaitoiry? A. Yes, sitr. Q. When? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety. q'. From what place were you sent? A. From Judge Mooi^e's cooirt, Brooklyn. Q. For what offense? A. Burglary. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were you in thie reformiatoay? A. Kine montihs and five days. „ , ^r • ^t ^ Q Were you sent to any other pnson? A. Yesi, sir; Oimtoin. q'. How long did you remain there? A. Nineteen months and on day. 822 Q. WMle in the refamnartioiry were you puiiiisih.e!dl? Au Yes, air; eeveml times. Q. How? A. With; a paddle down in the toth-Tioioim); a big learttop strap Q. Any other way ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How ? A. The first time I went down there I was beaten and knocked down, and I got a cut on the forehead OTjer th,e temple by Mr. Winnie and Mr. Brockway. (The witness exhibits the scar to Dr. Smith-) Dr. Smith. — I find a cicatrix about an inch long half way between the eyebrow and the hair on the left side. Q. With what were you struck over the eye ? A. Mr. Brock- 's ay's fist; I got hit in this eye first and I turned airound and dropped alongside the edge of the bath-tub, and I hit it with my temple and made a mark there; I was thrown on the floor and got beat there, and I laid there aJmost uncouiscious, and then I A^'as put up and whipped with the paddle. Q. How many times were you punished while you were there ? A. Once to twice a month. Q. How many times had you been punished before receiving tills blow over the eye ? A. That was the first time I did get pimished. Q. How were you placed when you received the paddle ? A. I put my hands up against the window and my shirt was turned up. I Q. How many blows did you receive ? A. About five blows. Q. Leave any marks or bruises ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Skin broken ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you receive any other blow on or about the head ? A. No. Q. Whatt were you doing when you received the blow which left the mark over you eye ? A. I went in there to get whipped. Q. On the first occasion ? A. Yes, sir; I was reported for cursing an. officer. ' Q. What was done or what occurred in the bath-room or in the solitary which caused them to strike you over the eye ? A. Nothing at aU; when you go down for your first time you get thrown all over the floor, so you won't go down again. Q. Didn't you resist the officers ? A. No, sir; you can't resist them ; if you resist them you get a worse beating. Q. What were you doing when you received the Mow over the eye ? A. I just walked right into the bath-room. ' Q. When you walked into the bath-room who did you flist meet? A. Me. Winnie, the principal keeper. 823 Q. What wais said between you and Winnie "' A. Nothing at all. Q. Who was in there at the time ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. Anyone else ? A. Mr. Spencer, and then men brought me in, and I no more than reached inside than he locked the door and went out; Mr. Brockway and Winnie were the only persons in there. Q. What did Mr. Brockway first say to you ? A. He said after 1 got hit OTer the eye and knocked up against the biath-tubj, " Why did you call this man. a name;'' I was in the awkward squad and I was learning how to drUl, and I didn't know how to do the business, and he said something to me, and I said, " I am a son of a bitch if I am going to let you bluff me;" then I got reported for calling him a soa of a bitch; then I got taken up and whipped; 1 got five or six lashes. Q. How did you get the first blow that made you fall against the bath-tub ? A. I didn't know either one of them before; Mr. Brockwaiy had the gray whiskers, and no more than I entered the bath-room, I walked inside, and he looked at me and he hit out with his fist and hit me over the left eye, and I turned and fell against the bath-tub. Q. That was Mr. Brockway or Mr. Winnie ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. The scar you have upon your forehead over the eye was caused by your striking your head against the bath-tub ? A. I'es, sir; Mr. Brockway hit me in the eye and knocked me oyer. Q. Anything further you wish to state in refeirence to that occasion ? A. Not on that part; then I got punished various times between it. Q. Severe punashnienlts'? A. No; noti very sevepe; from five to eigM laislhes. , Q. Any blows over the head? A. No, sir. Q. Blows upon amy other portion of your body from amy of the ofSoetTB? A. No, sir. Q. At any time? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever punished for breaking a gun? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever locked up in the solitary? A. Yes sir; in the rest-aune; I went there September 19, 1890, and I was kepti in there until the 9th of December, 1890, and on the tenth of Decem- ber I go* slentt to State prison. Q. Whaiti was your food while you were in the rest-cure? A. For morathis two meals a day ; sometimes one meal a day, and the next toy twc(. Q. Of what? A. Bread and waiteir. Q. Bread and water entirely? A. Yes, sir; if you knew the tier- man you could get some soup off of him. 824 By Mr. Litohfieldl: Q. How mtiny times were you paddled in gll? A. I can't exactly remember. Q. Can yon give me the date of tike finst timie? A. EigMeenth of March, 1890. Q. How many blows? A. Five lb six. Q. Do you remember the date of the next time yooi' went to the ba*h-room? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you know about how many times you' were in the bath- rw)m ? A. About ten or twelve times. Q. How many was the greatest number of 'blowisi you received at any one time? A. Either, eightl or ten Mowb; I tiiink ten was what I received. , Q. While you were in the solitary did you send for the phy- . sician? A. No, sir. ^ Q. DidI you, ait any time, send for him? A., No, siir; I couldn't get no lead pencil or paper tu there; nothing toi write with. Q. Did the doctor ^isit yotu while you were .there? A. No, sir. Q. Did you see him while you were theirei? A. No:; I often saw him waJking along the floor flagging undteirtieath; Mr. Brookway came up twice to me and looked in, and aiSked me how I was get- ting along, and that is all. Q. Were you ever taken before Mr. Brocikway? A. No, sir. Q. Were you' ever taken to the batK-room when you didn't receive punishmentl? A. Yes, sir. I Q. "V^^le^ you ^\el?e admoeisihed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever taken there more than onice when! yoiui were simply admonished and no* piunAsihed? Al No', sir. Q. While you were in the refoipmaitory were you taken to the hoBipital for treatiment at any time? A. No, sir. Q. Aftei" you went to Clinton prisiotn were you taken to the hospital? A. No, sir. , Q. Were yoil in the hoislpitlal at Oliniton prison? A. No, sir. Q. Wene you' treated for any diseajse otr any ailment while you were in Clinton prisioM? A. No, sir. Q. Had you any disease at tihie timei you went to the refoocma- tory? A. No^ sir. Q. Have you at the present time spinial curvaibure? A. Yes, sir. Q. How Ipmg have you had tihaitl? A. Since I left Elmilna reformatory; I never had it, but when I weiniti there I got it, while I was in the reformatory. 825 Q. Hoiw long was it aftiCT yoiu gffb to tihel refamiiatory ihaib you felt yofui had tih'ait disease? A. After I was piuife iin ihe rest-cure. Q. HaTC youi been treated foi- that diisease lately A. No, sir. Q. Whiat is your employmeuit! now"? A. Setting up balls for pool taible. Q. Haive yon hiaid amy physlMaa examine your back? A. No, sir. Q. Can you stland up sttnaaghit? A. Noi, sir. Q. Do you remiemlber the name youj gave whiem you were con- victed? A. Ye®, mc\; Johni MeCtoirlmick. Q. Is that your ibmm maimie? 'A. No, sir. Q. Wh'ait is youm tirae naimie? A. James' McOarren. Q. Where were you bomi? A. BrookljTi. Q. Whlat natiomaility? A. Irieh. Q. Why didn't you glvie your true' namie? A. I didn't want to disgnace my people. Q. That thje only neasoni? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Had you ever been arresiced before? A. No, eiir. Q. Halve yon lever been coravicted of amy other offense? A. Noi, sir. • ' Q. Ha;Te you been in prison sitiice yon left tihe mfomiiajtoiry? A. No, ear. Q. Have yon been aamestied for amytMmg:? A. YfiBi, sir; once. Q. Siiice you were in the frefoirmatoiry? A. Yesj, sir. Q. For what? A. Being intoKioajtedl Q. How imany times have yon been airrested foiri thatt? A. Once. Q. Were you put in prison floori that? A. Noi, ,sir; I only got one day; I was let out lat 12 o^clock. Q. Weren't you arrlested' foir asBault before you went to thle ■ reformaitory? A. Noi, sir. Q. SuiPe of tlhat? A. Sure of thait Q. Did you tdl the superitotemdiemt you hlaid been? A. Ye®, sir; to gie* drafted. Q. lb get tnansfeirred to prison? A. Yes, isir. Q. Didm't you majie tlhiat statement when you went into the rieaEkwTmaitoiry? A. I didn't want to have nothing at all to do with him; when I was in' jail I goiti told enough albout him; I wanted JudJgie MooTie to isend mie to the penitentiairy. Q. Ware you informed under the law if you had been convicted of amy othetr offensie you could be senit to State prison? A. No, sir. Q. Di'dn''t know anything about it before you were takesa to Eknira? A. No, isiifr; I was gtetting on my fifteenth yeair. Q. Do you why yon told Mr. Bi»ckway you had been in prison wUenl it waisni't true? A. I go* told in the jal the best way to do wias to try amd ge* on the dmift. 104 826 Q. You had been told you could be sent to State prdBoii if it was true itliart; you had been couyictied of another offense ibesddu® the one you were sent to the reformaitory for? A. Yesi, sfir. Q. So^ when you were examined by Mr. Brocikway on your entering the reforanaitoiry, you miade this statement? A. Yes, sir"; that I was convioted of a ciliuie befoa-e. Q. That was untinie? A. Yes, sir; it was uutrue; I wouldn't swear tto anything except What wasi the truith. Q. You weren't ever- couifinled in any datck cell? A. Nol; I was confined in the sareen cell two monthsi and twenty daya Q. Was that the time you refer when you say you were con- fined in the rest cure? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were in the screen ceU aill the while? A. Yes, sfir. Q. Was the wooden door to the ceU closed? A. Noi, sia?. Q. The cell wasn't entiriely diaa'k? A. ISTo, sir; it wasn't enitLrely dark- Q. You (aire sure that the scar which you have over your eye was canised by your sitrihing your head against the bath-tub? A. Yes, ear. - ' Q. Where were you sitainding with referenoe to the door and the bath-tub at the 'time? A. I was standing betwieen the baith-tub and the marble table he has the reports on when you gO' down in the bath-room. Q. Was the bath-tub front or back of you? A. Back of me; I sitruck, and I ituomed right around and I struck on my face. Q. Do you mean to say ^^•hen you were passing Brockway, before he struck jou, you stood face to face, and the bath-tub was behind you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. He sti-uck you upon the left eye ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The scar is over your left eye ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The bath-tub at the .time he struck you was behind you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you explain how it was that you struck the bath-tub with your forehead ? A. Yes, sir; I was standing like this; when I went in to him and he looked at the report and let out with his fist and ketched me in the right eye, and I turned around like that and dropped on pij face, and my head hit the bath-tub. Q. You whirled clear around ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any other mark or scar upon you made upon that occasion ? A. No, sir. Q. Had you any scar upon your forehead when you went there ? A. Only one right here on. the right side. Q. Is this sc^r that you refer to that was made by striking your head upon the bath-tub the only scar there is upon the left side of your head or forehead ? A. No; there is one over the left eye. 827 Q. You liaye two scaxs ? A. Yes, sir; that was done before I went therie; Q. You claim there is another scar directly under the one you received by striking your head against the bath-tub ? A. Yes, gar. Dr. Smith. — There is a scar in, the middle of the eyebrow, a vertical one, evidently from an injury. Judge Gnbert. — Do you find another scar under or nearly under the first scar he describes ? Dr. Smith. — That is the one I refer to. Q. Did you have that second scar at the time you went into the reformatory ? A. All was on me except that on.e here. Q. How did you receive that second scar tliat you have over your eye ? A. I was going to school; I fell on the ice; I was a little bit of a child. Q. Didn't yom receive it in a fight ? A. No; I am not one of them fellows. \' Q. While you were in the reformatory weren't you accused of being guilty of violating the rules ? A.' Yes, sir; often. Q. What were the rules you were violating ? A. Talking and looking around in the stop. ' Q. Weren't you charged at one time of having aommitted a theft there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was there to that ? A. I wanted to get my task done in the umbrella shop. i ^ Q. What was it that caused them to charge you with that theft ? A. The man that was working alongside of me had his task done and had a few umbrellas done, and he told me to take them, and I took them, and the reporting oflflcers saw me and accused me of the theft. Q. You hadn't completed your task ? A. No, sir. Q. Another man had mote than compleljeld his tasik? A^ Yes, sir. Q. So you took some of his umbrellas to put with yours to make up the balance of your task ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You didn't appropriate to your own use anything ? A. No, SU'. Q. Were you punished for that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many blows ? A. I don't exactly remember; you can't count them, they come too fast, and knock you on the head. Q. Weren't you also charged with being disorderly, yelling in your room, making a disturbance ? A. I never remember that. Q. Do you remember being punished at any time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were charged with that and you were ■ punished for that ? A. Yes, sir. ; Q. You claim it wasn't true ? A. Yes, sir. 828 Q. Do you say it wasn't true ? A. I say it wasn't true. Q. Didn't you make an unneoessary nodse ipi your cell? A. No, sir; wiiieneTer I M'ent into my cell I aliway® wenit fo eieeip. Q. Do yoiu Icnow toiw it was you were punished for thajt? A. Yes, sdlr; it was tJhree dOors below me tke noise was miade, and I told him to shuli up I wanted to sleep, and. I go* the report; I whispered to him and said: "Shut up, I wamt to go to' sleep;" instead of him getting a report f(ir making a nodisie in, tjhe room I got it. Q. Yoai wei-e both niakinig some noise? A. 1 was maikiaig no nodse; I was asleep. Q. Yooi couldn't ha^e been asleep when you were halloing to him? A. Oh, no>; not then. Q. You had been tio sl'eep? A. Yes, sir; was dozimg right otf in a sleep when he woke me up, about hall-past 8 in the night time. Q. Weren't you accused of insuibordinatiomi; that is, not mind,- ing, and punished foin tihati? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know in what respecit, what partioular, you were insubordinate? A. I gott insuborddnatiOm iui the umbrella shop, as I turned arounxl to see if the closet was emjrtiy, and he reported me. Q. One of the inmate officers reported! you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you punished for that? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many blows? A. I can't count them. Q. I see by this memorandum that I have before. me tharti upon several of these occaeSons you' have received L or twelve blows; what do you say about that? A. I think itj is true. Q. You said during this examination you received seven or eight? A. Eight to ten. Q. Upon any of tlh'ese occasions were you uniconscijous duritog any portion of the time? A. No, sir; only the flrsit time' that I went down there. Q. Are there any marks upon your back caused by the paddle? A. Only this mark here; I can't sttaffl up straight. Q. Is there a mark or scar upon our back? A. No; it is over two years now since I got paddled last. (Dr. Smith examines the bald?; of the witjnessi) ' Dr. Smith, — I doBcovered noi curvature of the spine, it seemed to be a healthy, well-formed spine, in goodi condition. Recess. 829 AFTERNOON SESSION. Gidieon James Hare, being duly swom, testified!: Exaimined by Jxidge G-ilbenti; ' Q. Where do you reside? A. Pour iLUMdired and two Wesfi Thirty-secooid. ' , Q. What is your employment? A. At presenit I am employed as a carpenter. Q. . Had you, at any ottfeer time, any otiher employmeni:!? A. Housesmith. • Q. Were yon ever employed at tihie Elmiraj reformajtoiry? A. I was. Q. To do whaib? A. On tJie ii'on work, putting up the new wing; I liiuk it was in the fall of 1886 or 1887; I was there I should say t-wo months or over. Q. Do you know where the room is located known as the bath- room? A. I did at that time. Q. TSTiat, if anything, do yoix know with referemioe to convicts being punished in tha1^ rooim while you were there? A. Whajt I know in regard to them; I have often iseen the boys taken' in, thei'e and heard the screams of them wihiich was terrifying; and I have seen 'a young man brought from there, half dragged from that iwom, wilii the blood on his back. Q. Can you give the name of that young man? A. I can not'. Q. Give his conseciuitive number? A. I could not. Q. Can you give abouit the day of the month and thje year? A. I could give the moaxtlhis and year, it was about the latter part of October, 1886. Q. Did you see him wlhen te was taken in the bath-room? A. No, >isir. , Q. Who was with bitm wtLem you saw him? A. T'wo keepers:; one was dressed in a gray suit; he was one of the first-grade men. Q. Did you see Brockway at that time ? A. No, sir. Q. Or about that part of the prison ? A. I seen him going in that room shorftly before. Q. The room this man was taken out of ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you describe any more minutely than you have the appearance of this man ? A. He was a short, thick-set man; he w as a boy, about 18 or 19 years of age. Q. Can you describe any more particularly ? A. He had a dark reddish hair, dark brown hair. Q. The injuries or wounds you saw upon him ? A. I couldn't tell. I 830 il You saj you saw blood running ? A. There was blood on his back; his sihirt wasn't clean down over his back at the time. Q. Did Yon see blood upon any other portion of his body ? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Do Tou know whei-e he was taken to ? A. I could not teU; I was at mv woi'k. Q. About what time of the day did you usually hear these screams in. the bath-room ? A. Between 10 and 1 o'clock. Q. How often ? A. Pretty much every day in the week. Q. Could you, at any time, hear anything that was said ? A. No, sdr. Q. Have yoii anj-thing further to state in reference to the pun- ii-hments inflicted that you saw, that you know ? A. The timje we were bringing in the iron work there was a truckmaji there, Elmira, I can't bring his name to recollection ; thlsi truckman was unloading ,some heavy ironwork in the yard, and one of the heavy iron pieces fell from the truck and broke his leg; on.e of the boys, a \oung man, used to carry Avater to the masons, and I believe thei-e was one of ^the boys, I knowed the boy by eyesight at that time, happened to turn abound or" look at the man, 'and we dildini't see the boy for three weeks, made remarks of that. Q. Which boy didn't you see ? A. This boy that turned around and looked. Q. Not the one that had his leg broken ? A. He was the truck- man, a citizen; he happened to turn his head around, or some- thing, to look at this truckman as he laid there in agony, and they sent for the surgeon, and we didn't see that boy for two or three weeks; the reason why, 1 remember, it was he used to carry water to the masons; when we did see the boy he was nearly bent double. Q. Can you give the boy's name ? A. No, sir; there were only four of us there from New Yonk, and we couldn't tell any name or number. Q. Do you know that boy wsts pimished ? A. That I couldn't say. Q. You can't, of your own knowledge, give the reasons why he did not make his appearance during the three weeks ? A. No, sir; can not. Q. Anything further ? A. The boy in the hardware shop asked' me and Mr. Decker to bring him in some liniment; we brougiht him in some liniment. Q. What fiu'ther occurred ? A. Nothing further. Q. Did you apply the liniment ? A. No, sir Q. See it applied ? A. No, sir. Q. See his back ? A. No, sir. 831 Q. Anything f itrtlier ? A. Yes, sir; a young man. spent five y('a.i'is in the reformatory, and one night he was two days over time, and he had made a great liick first he said, made a disturb- ance in the reformatory before he was so^ much over hisi timei, that he should be out, and he was let out at 8 o'clock in the evening, between, 7 and 8 in the evening; we boarded at the foot of the hill with a man named Mr. Brockway, no relation of the superintendent; we met htm as we were going to post some letfens to our folks in New York; we brought liim doiwni toi the depot, because he didn't know his way; he couldn't tell where he was standing; he stood by the lamp-post; that young man lives soinewheres on the east side; he was sent there for attempted hoiuseibreaking in Eighttjy-isieoonid; hisi name was Patrick; I douldn'it tell his number. Q. Waisn't his namie Itelly? A. 1 couldn't te'll; hisi name was Pat; thfei flnst name; he waisi tlhree years in the third. Q. AnytMng furthier? A. NotMng. Q. What I aisked you) to! tell was this; what, if anytliing, you kno^v in neference to ihie inmiates ireceiVing se.v6re puniishmient wiMle they were in the refbmniatory? A. We could see noitihing except what we could se-e in negard tt> the inmiattesi; we could slee no punishment. > Q. What, if anythinig, have you seem or do you khiOiw in refefflenice to the inmates afteiP thiey have bfeen in the bath-room, having upon them marks or evidence of severe puniishmenti? A. I seen the mlariks of this boy's back th'ati I speak about that was in for five yeains; was thjree yeara ini the gnade; his baick looiked like liver at the timle he came out. Q. That: was the boy 'that wemtt to the statiton? A.. Yeisi, sir. Q. How long was it belbire he left the refowniatory thiait you slaW his back last? A. I sihould say about an hour or soi, not longer; beioause wie went directly to the sitiation with him afitetrward and he took the train to New York. Q. How did it happen thajt you suuw his back? A. He Aowed it to us. Q. Where waia it thait he isihlowed it to you? A. On the roaid, by lamp light. Q. Who \\as with you? A. A party by the ooiaane of Patniok Domaihoe; a, mam that worked' with usl Q. "V^Tierte is Domahoe? A. I couldn't teU you where he is; he is in Brooklyn or New York; he mafrried a girl from Elmira while he was up there. Q. Anything else you know in regard to severe pimishmenits bieinig inflicted there? A. No. 8^ Q. Wihat, if amyljliing, do jed under a light ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And he exhibited his back to you ? A. Yes, sir; because we heard so much of it and knowed so much of it, he showed it; he li\'ed somewhere in East Twenty-second street. Q. Can you give the month or time when, tliis occurred ? A. Somewheres in October, the latter part, 1886. Q. I am requested to ask you to describe more accurately than you have the sticks or canes that you saw these keepers have? A. Something about three-quarters, from that to an inch in diameter, and some of them about an inch and a quarter; some were walking canes, and I am positive I saw one or twosticte; the stick I saw with the keeper, I won't be positive whether the suspender shop or hardware shop, whichever one it was, that one was a stick with an iron ferrule on the end, and I should judge about three and a half feet long, about an inch and a quarter in diameter. ; Q. Do you know what kind of wood it was ? A. No, sir; I couldn't tell you that. Q. Do you mean that you sa,w half a dozen different keepers at one time have sticks or canes ? A. I do. Q. Did. you see them haive oanes at diffeo-ent Mmiesi? A. C5efr- tainly; more than once in the yard; I never eiaw themi have canes inside; in the yard. , Q. You never saw them have oanes or sticks inedde the refoirima- tory building? A. No, sir. Q. In the yards and airoiund "ttie building, and when the men were going to and from their work you saw offlcem having camies and stiokB^ as you describe? A. Yes, sir. 836 diaries Braust, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Wliere do you reside? A. New Yoi-k. Q. Wbat is your occupaition? A. Oairpenter. Q. Have you ever been iai the Elmira refoi-matoi-y? A. Yee, sir. Q. From what place wene you seot? A. New York!. Q. \\^at for? A. Burglajry in tbe third degree. Q. Undei' what plea? A. Guilty. Q. How long did you remain in the refoirmiatory? A. Five yeare; from 1888 to 1893. i Q. What was your age when isemt to the refbranatoiry? A. Nineteen. Q. Were you punished while you were in the refonniatory? A. Yes, sir; veiy ofteoL Q. You are now engaged in businessi in the city? A. Yes, sir; amd I have a request to make, that my niame be not published in the city. i Q. You were punished iseveral 'times? A. Yes, sir. Q. How ? A. For very small peasons; I was taken to the bath- ivmn amd paddled. , Q. About how naany times in ail? A. I couldn't recollect exactly; I should »ay between fifteen amd a hundred. Q. Different times you were taken to the bath-room and received for punishment? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon amy of those occasions did you receive very severe punishment? A. Yes, sir; I did. Q. State the facts with reference to the punishmHnit you claim to be severe ? A. At that time I was in the old armory, and I was passing a note to a fellow namled Clark; ian of&cer seen me aaid took the note oif of us, and had us chalked ini lait night, ajnd the next momiag I was taken down in the bath-noomi, and asked what I ^\■as passing this note for; I told Mr. Brockway everybody could read whait it was for; it was for tobacco; Mr. Brockwa/y asked me what I -i\ anted of tobacco; I told him to use it; I had/ to unstrap; I don't remember whether I gave amy resistance or what it was, anyway he struck me with the handle of the paddle across the eves, and closed my eyes nearly up for two days; I was put in a cell and wasn't let out for two days afterwards. Q. On that occasion how many blows did you receive from the paddle on the back? A. About twenity-four. Q. Did you receive blows on any other part of your body? A. Yes; two on my face with the paddle, amd two moire with the hamdle. , 837 Q. Wiliat marks, if any, were miaide upoiq yomr fajoe m liead? A. Tluisi-niiar'k aoroiss my \mm; thjere isi a scar tibJena (The -nitn'ess exhibits the scar to Dr. Smith.) Dr. Smith.-- A small scar about half an inch, long, vertical, just over the edge of the left eyebrow. ' Judge Gilbert— Do you find any other scar upon his head ? Dr. Smith.— No. Q. Were you injured in any other way at that time in such a manner as to leave a scar upon .your person ? A. Not at that time. Q. Have you stated all you desire to state in reference to that punishment ? A. No, sir; I tlhink it was 1890 when a man by the name of IMichaels was trying to escape. Q. In referteoice to that particular punishment is that iall ? A- Yesi sir. Q. Were you punished severely aij; any other time? Aj. Yes, sir; I think it was in 1889, we were marching out on the parade ground; it was snowing heavily, and somebody picked up a ball of snow and struck the captain, and they told him it was me; when we got tlhrough with the company ground we were given places, rest, and I stepped out to the captain, saluting him properly; at that time we were allowed to talk to anybody in the ranks, and he gave rne permission to talk to him, and I told him it wasin't me that fired that snow; Mr^Hoppe was standing up on the stairs of No. 1 shop, and he shouted down to the captain to haA^e me chalked in for talking with him; that night I sent for Mr. Hoppe and asked him what I was chalked in for; he said to me, "You had no business to talk to the captain;" I said, "I did; I have business to talk to anybody;" I told him to overlook this matter and let me go ; he said no, I ought to be skinned alive, and the next noon I was talcen down to the bath-room and given the regular dose and I was kicked all around the floor, in' the leg here, right on the knee; I can sihow the scar now; I have the sore there; sometimes the sore opensi, matter comes in it and runs out; ttere is a big scar on my knee now. Q. How many blows did you receive from the paddle at that time ? A. About twelve, I think. Q. Any over the head ? A. Yes; over the eye. Q. How many ? A. One for looking around at Mr. Brockway. Q. What was the effect of that blow ? A. Bruising the eye up and maldng it black and blue. Q. You stated the first time you were struck twice across the eyes; what was the effect upon your qyes by those two blows ? A. Black and blue, the one eye. 838 . Q. Wlien did you say this was ? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-one, I think it was. Q. That was tihe time you were kicked ? A. That was in 1889 j this is another time. , Q. Who was present at the time you were kicked ? A. Mr. Winnie was there, Mr. McLaughlin, Tom Warren, I think, was his name. Q. Anyone else ? A. That is about all I can recollect; there were four or five persons in there. Q. When you received the punishment how were you placed or made to stand ? A. On the west side of the building there is a window, and up there you. have to stand and put your hands up and put down your clothes, and Mr. Brockway \vUl stand on this side with a x>a^ I think., Q. Ui)on your back ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive auy over your head ? A. Yes, sir; both eyes were blackened at that time; the next morning after that I was taken in again for an offense similar, talking; Mr. McLa,ughlin reported me in the shop for talking. Q. You wei-e paddled two days running ? A. Yes; two days after one another. Q. Are you sure of that ? A. Yei^, sir. Q. ilay you not be mistaken ? A. No, sir; two daysi in succession. Q. Can you tell what time of year that was ? A. That was in 1888; I think in April. Q. What had you been doing on both occasions ? A. Simply talldng. Q. How long were you in the red suit ? A. In all, two years and a half; not at a stretch. Q. In which grade were you in when your sentence expired ? A. In the intermediate grade. 84=1 Q. Were you ever in the first grade ? A. Yes, sir; I was lieutenant. Q. In inmate officer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. For lioiw long a time? A. Two weeks: ; Q. Did you ever occupy any other official position while you were in the reformatory ? A. No, sii'. Q. What were you reduced for ? A. For giving away my medals; I "had won at the drill; those pteople told I had sold them to them for tobacco, which I didn't do; I didn't receive as much as a pinch of tobacco from them. Q. After you were reduced from the first to the second grade, after that how long did you remain in the refoimatory ? A. About six months. Q. You stayed to the end of the maximum term of the iniprisonment or penalty imposed for the offense which you had committed? A. Yes, sir. Q. You weren't paroled at all ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in the solitary cells ? A. Yes, sir; I was. Q. Ever chained there ? A. Yes', sir. Q. How long a time werie you kept in the solitary? A. Two nigh,ts and three days. Q. Chained diuimg the emtlitre titne? A. Yesi, sir; I was hiamdl- cuffed and chainied om the floor so I couldn't moviei my hand from the flooiT. Q. The cell youl refer to — was it one of the threehooimier cells? A. Thnee-coimeir ceils. ' Q. Were you chainied to the sili'diing ring or toi the ring in the comer of the cell? A. The ring in' the comer of the cell. Q. What was your food? A. Bread and water. Q. Did the physdlciian visit you while you were there? A. No, ■sir, Q. Were you ever confined) closely ini lany other cell? A. Yesi, sir; in what you call the solitary; the rest cure; I was there for I forty-five days. Q. In the sicreen oeU? A. No, sir. Q. What was your food when you were confined there? A. In the morning I was aUowed a pan of hash and two islioesi of bread and a cup of water; lati night I was allowed a cup of watfer and two silices of bread. Q. Were you confined in any other ceU except the ordinary cell? A. Noi,'sir. Q. Were you lever chained in any oither cell? A. No^ sir. Q. Have you now stated suibsianti'ally all thene^ is: in reference to the severity of the ptuniisHument which you received while you were there? A. YeS, sir. 106 842 Q. What, if anythimg, d)o yoiu know -mtK refepence to tihJCTe bedinig other dark cells in ihe refoimiatory besides the cells knioiwn as the solitaries; the three-oomeir cells? A. I dio; there is' one between the boiler-honise; the nuain flre-hole andl the D. B., as you go down the flre-hole; alomgsildtei of the flre^hiole isi a dark gangway, and as yom walk in there yoox haye toi step over the staaani pipes, and as soon as yoni are over ihe siteam. pipesi, and jusit before it there is a cell made otuit of stones this side, and this side there is a little window coivened withJ ibarsi and' as yoox pass , along you pass along th.e doors with, bars two inches in, diameter. Q. When did you see this cell? A. I seen thite cell twicie; I think it was in 1890, when the trade school startled up, and I was sent to work for Mr. Bajrber, the center gate-keeper; hie sent me down to get a ladder; they gave me a lamtiem, and told me to search for a ladder in the dark gangway, ^and I walked along and seen this cell, and I seen it again in 1892; September on Octofber; I was working on the flre-hole, and I walked down tliere toi waMn myself, and there was la lot of men working in thje siub-ceUaa*, and I went to see them, and as I passed by I saw this dungeon down there; it must be under the street; it isn't flfteem fteet! away from the entrance to that gangway. I Q. What, if lanything, did you notice with reference to the lock upon that door? A. I nofbiced there was a doior there, and heavy bars. Q. Oan you describe more particularly the size of the dungeon and the window to it? A. The window was about two by two, I think, and might have been five feet wide and eight deep Q. The ceil? A. Yes, sir. Q. The bars in the window? A. About half to three-quarters of an inch in diameter. Q. What time in the day was it you were there? A. In the morning, and also in the afternoon; flrst in the morning. Q. Were there any windows to this alleyway? A. No, sir. By Mr. litchfield: ! Q. Where was thiait window situated'; art the top of the cell? A. No, sir; on the side. Q. Where did it open? A. Didn't open at aU; it wasn'tl a window; it was simply a hole wiith baira Q. Did it open into the general room or out doors? A. There was no daylight there at all; it was dark. Q. This window opened from one dark room intO' anothjer diark i-oom? A. Yes, sir; into the gangway. Q. Is that anywhere near the dining-room? A. The dining- room is located further west and underneath the dining-room is 843 a saboellar, amid a® yoiui come from the subcellar towafrd tke flre- hole joiu — Q. It is on thie mad from the cellar to the boilers? A. Yes; you can only get to thaiti cellar frani the fire-hole. , By Dr. Smith: Q. Did you go initio it? A. No, edr. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Describe the fli'e-hole? A. When yoiu come from the parade ground you have to turni around the comere, wha;ti they call now the laundry, and aa you walk down you Avill hare to cross thutl atreet, go over thJe flue-heatei' and go down wooden stains., and as you get down the wooden stairs' there is a iw\- of boilers and fires, and' theiPe is this dark gangway; as yoiu step in you walk around it, you W|aJlartment. ' Q. You were charged with what ? A. Larceny; stealing and distribuling examination papers. Q. The examination papers which were ordinarily distributed among the inmates who were in school ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Relating to their grade or standing in school ? A. No, sir; merely to the examination they had in particular elates. Q. Was that charge true or false ? A. False. 107 850 Q. What puuishments did you receive ? A. Beaten across the back and kidneys, also over the head. Q. How were you plated when you received the punishment ? A. Two heels together and my hands over my head, leaning tov^ard the window. j Q. ( rive, in your own language, the facts ? A. I was called cut of the printing office and brought before the superintendent in the bath-room, and I was there charged with larceny, with stealing and distributing examination papers; they told me there was no need of my denying, because they already had proof from people there before me that I was the guilty party; I asked the peo- ple be brought before me; I also asiked if their evidence! would be taken in preference to mine, if I had no say whatever; they told me there was no use of my denying, because they had the evidence; I was ordei-ed to be paddled, and 1 was placed against the wall, and my clothes were ordered off of me, and I was paddled right there. Q. Did you undress yourself ? A. I didn't undress myself; ithiey were dragged off me by the principal keepeir, Mr. Winmdle. Q. Who was present ? A. Superintendent, Mr. Winnie^ Colonel Halpin and Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Spencer, and Mr. Murphy; I was beaten, about ten blows, I guess, and then he v/ould ask me a question over again, if I was satisfied, and if I was willing to confess; I told him I had noticing to confess to, that I was not guilty, and with that I would get a beat across the head; then he would commence beating me across the back, ajid he would ask the question a st'cond time, and I was isupposed to turn my head toward him to give an answei", and I would do so, and if the answer was noit satisfactory I would get the same beat across the head; from there I was tak(*n to the solitary and chained down, hands and wrist, and given a slice of breiad and cup of water for a day's i-ation, and the next day I was taken down the same way and the third day they let me remain in the solitary cell. Q. What were you struck with over the head? A. Paiddle; liMe strap. i Q. Leave amy mai'ks uxron your head or face immediaitely aftter? A. Yes, sir; hiead wajs aU. swollen up and back. Q. Any upon your f^e? A. No, sir; my face wasn't toiuched. Q. Struck you eimply over the head? A. Over the head. Q. Not over the eyesi? A. 'No, sir. j Q. At the end of the first paddling you were taken to tihie soli- tairy? A. Yes, sir. , Q. There yoii wei^e chained until the next: day? A. Yes, siir. Q. In what manner? A. To sort of am inclined bar wiitih a runninig ring; chained with tihe wiilst, amd ■aim chained by tlhie fooili. 851 Q. To whiat was your fooit chiadinied? A. The floor. Q,. ThJH cell tihat yoiu weire oomflnedi in, was a thiiee-coiiiier cell? A. Yes^isir. Q. YoiuiT foot was drained to tJtiie sftatioiiiary ring in the cotmler of the cell? A. I couldn't exactly say, becaiase the plaice wias so dark; but it was chlained in isticIl a positaon I couldmi't mioive it. Q. Do you iiemeniber in wMjch. "tiep of i the solitary cells you weire ini; whether you were in tihe itier that faces the windows m tliat part of the prison, or whether you wene in' tte rear row of cells? A. I was in t!hfe rear whei-e there are no' windows about; perfectly dlart. Q. Do you know whtetlher the wooiden bMnds were closed over the windows? A. T do not. ' Q. You think you were in the rear cell? A. Where' it was per- fectly dark. I Q. Youi remained there in that condition; chainted in that man- ner unM the next day? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your food? A. Breicid and water. Q. How often was it given to you? A. Once a day. Q. What was the quantity? A. One slice about eSlx inches long and about four inches wide', about half lan inch thick. Q. What was the quiantlty of water? A A catni of water; a small cup they have (fliere; abont eight inohesi highl Q. A quart of water? A. A quiart. Q. That you had onoe a day? A. Yesj, sir. Q. While chained in that cell did the physician visit you? A. ~No^ sir. Q. The next day what occunred? A. The siamie thing; I was taken to the bath-room and agaiin) beaten. Q. What time the next day? A. I couldn't exactly siay. Q. About what time? A. I wouldn't Mke to' stay aibout what time; because I couldn't tell whether it wais day or night. Q. What month was thife? A. In April; a.bout the flfbeemth or sixteenth. Q. Of what year? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-oliie. Q. How many blows did you receive the second time? A. I dbn'ti know. [ Q. Did you count? A. ISTo', sir; I counted first; I couldoa't count the second time in the blath-room, all I could do wasi toi hold myself froim falling down!; if I hadn't fallen down I would have been kicked, and cnffis plaiced upon my wrist to hold me up. Q. Were you ever istrung up; as they call it? A. ISTo^ dr. Q. Who was present the isecond timtei? A. To the best of my knowledge the same parties were there as were there the first day Murphy, MclHughlin, Spenicer, superintendent amd Colonel Halptm. 852 Q. Before Mr. Brocikway commeDioed paddLLng you tike second time; I am refenriiig now to' this axicaisartion or puniisihment given you, what did he say, if anything, toi yoia before he commenced pnndisihing? A. He asfced me the questiomsi if I tlhoiugh.t I was sartdsfied now witih whiat I hiad already nnderwenitl, and if I was willing to confesis, and I told Mm no, there was n» need of my confesBing, because I haJd noithing to confess to; with, tihaf he said he would have to get it out by some other way besides talking to me, amid he otrdered me against the wall and com- menced paddUing me. ; Q. You can't tell holw mamy blows yon reoeivedl? A. No. Q. Did he effcrike you over the head? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many blows? A. I couldn't just say, and whenever he would ask me the question I wonld look that way, and I would have to answer him and turn my head toward him, and the answ'er would not be siatisfactoiry to him, and he would come do^vIl across my head and demand my head toi be put the oither way; a ooiuple of times he had ordered me to turn my head, and sooner than take a chance to get strTick in the face I would hold my head that way. Q. Did you confess? A. I confessed to noi guilt; no, sir. Q. After he finished paddling you what was done then? A. I was taken to the solitary again. Q. How long were you kepf there? A. The next day he let me stay in the solitary the whole day. Q. Were yon chained? A. Yes, sir. Q. In the same manner as befoire.? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you remain in the solitary that time? A. I remained in the solitary then until the fourth day, when I was taken again to the bath-room. Q. Then what occurred in tihe bath-room? A. A repetition of, what ocoiirred before; I was beatlen in a like manner, but I couldn't! give any other answer, but whait I had alneaJdy given to him at first; the question would be whether I was willing to confess my guilt; I had no guilt to confesla,' and' I would have to stand punishment for it. Q. How many blows did he give you that time? A. I couldn^'t say. 1 ' i Q. Did he strike you on anyi other part of your body than the ba«k? A. Across the back and kidneys and head. Q. How many blows did he strike you over the head? A. I couldn't exactly say. Q. About h^)w nuany upon the other occasion? A. About two or three timeis across the head. i 853 Q. Leave amy mai'ks upon yotur keajd or faoe? A. Th-ere aine marks I oan'ib account for; my lueaid was aH rapped up at the timie; tbat is, aJi battewi up; no bandages. , Q. Stirike yon wiftb anything else except tKe strap? A. 5^o, sir. Q. Can you describe the strap? A. A weapon about the length of that (inidicating). Q. Grive it in inicihes? A. About eighteen inches. Q. How wide? A. .Tluiee or four inches wide, i Q. About how thick? A. About half oir quarter inch thick. Q. Was theme any hole ia the strap? A. It was perforated. Q. Do YOU know what it wais soaked in? A. Eirtiher water or Tinegair, taken from, the bath-tub; I saw tlhem take it from the tub. Q. The strap was wet? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whether it was water or something else you can't tell? A. No, sir. ■ Q. Have you stated that it was wet with something else besides water? A. It may be wet with vinegar or water. , Q. Haven't you stated? A. No, sir. Q. Have you stated all that you desire to state iu reference to that oitb.er beatinig? A. Yes, sir. Q. At either one of the three beatings which you have referred to were you thrown in any way upon the floor of the bath-room? ■A. No, sir. I Q. Anid received uio puuisiunent while upon the floor? A. No, sir; all the pundsihmenit I received I received wlhile standing up. Q. What was done witih yon after the third paddling? A. Taken to the solitary. ' Q. "S^Tiat was done with you there ? A. Let lay there. Q. Were you chained again, as before ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How long did you remain, there ? A. I remained there until I got the last paddling; that was about seven days in the isolitary, and from there I was taken to the batb-room again. Q. And received the fourth paddling ? A. Yes, sir. Q. During the time, from the time you were first confined to the time when you were relea^d from the solitary, was your food 1?he same substantially as you have stated before ? A. Yes, sir. I Q. For each twenty-four hours ? A. Yes, sir. Q. During the twenty-four hours did the reformatory physician visit you ? A. No, sir. Q. Did Mr. Brockway visit you ? A. He did, on one occasion. Q. During that time ? A. Yes; he came down to see me at one time, and asked me the same question; he asked me in tbe bath-room if I was willing to confess; I told him I had nothing 854 to confess to; lie commenced swearing, and said the only way to make me confess was — Q. Give the language he used ? A. He says, '' Damn you, we wUl take it from yon in the bath-poom." Q. Did he use any other language ? A. No, sir. Q. When you were taken to the bath-room the fourth time ^\hat occuiTed ? A. I wais beaten there until I was unconscious; irom there I was taken to the rest cure. Q. Can you give the day of the month that occurred ? J^. No, sii'. Q. Can yon give the day of the week ? A. No, sir; I lost what day of Hie week it was. Q. Wiat month it was ? A. April. Q. Who was present on that fourth occasion ? A. The super- intendent, Principal Keeper TV'innie, Colonel Halpin, Mr. Murphy, Mr. McLaughlin and, I believe, Mr. Spencer was there the last occasion. Q. How many blows did you receive before you became uncon- scious ? A. I couldn't say. Q. Upon what part of the body were you struck ? A. Across tlie back and kidneys. Q. Did you receive blows upon any other part of your body ? .V An occasional blow across the head. Q. (riven under the same circumstances as, you have stated ? A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were being punished did you plead for mercy or anything of that kind ? A. I did; T asked the superintendent; I told him he was beating me unjustly and without cause; he gave nie no satisfaction ; the only answer I would get would be a laugh and another blow. Q. Did you cry ? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. When you came to where were you ? A. I was in, the rest cure cells on the first gallery. Q. Do you know bow you came therfe ? A. I have a faint idea of being brought there. Q. By whom ? A. By Colonel Halpin; I don't know exactly who; the man who has the right of taking the men from the bathroom. Q. Do you know whether you walked or whether they carried you ? A. No, sir; I know I couldn.'t walk; I was too weak. Q. At tbat time had you any bruises or marks upon you caused by the punisbment which had been inflicted ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were they ? A. Tbe skin was raw all over the back; my head was all bunged up with, lumps; I was laying in the soli- tary cells on the first gallery; Dr. Wey came there to visit me. 855 Q. What can you state yourself before you rest the rest cure upon that occasibu, with reference to there being bruises upon your person caused by the punishment which you had received ? A The skin Avas all raw over the back, and I wasi soce so I couldn't stand; I could hardly lay in any position in bed; I had to lay on my belly and stay that way. Q. Did youir back bleed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you describe any more deflnditely or partaiculairly than \\-hat you have? A. I couldn't exactly see my back. Q. Can yon tell how many places the skin waisi bnoken upon your back? A. No, sdr; I ean niotl; my back was pretty well broken up; the shirt was stacking to it and full of bloiod'. , Q. This was at the endl of aboot the isevenith day; that is, you were taken to the rest-cure aboiut the seventh day aifrber you were fiiwt taken to the barth-roomi ftoir thisi cause? A. Yes, sir". Q. Hiow^ long did yon remain in the resti-cuTe? A. Two days. Q. During that time who, if anyonie, came to see you? A. The second day the superdnitemdent came toi eeie me. Q. Anyone with him? A. Mr. Sample. Q. Was there anything saaid bettween' you and Mr. Brookway upon that occasion? A. Yes, siiir. Q. What was said? A. He commenced; preacMng me, telling me what a fool I wa;s, tellinig me he' would take me down a^d try me before a court; I tloid h im tiiere would be nothing better that would please me; he walked away tod sltopped talking a little while longer, and he went away himself anid Dr. Wey was the next one I seen. i Q. That was the se«ond day? A. Dr. Wey came the third da;y. Q. Did Dr. Wey come the same day to see, you that Brookway came to see you? A. No, sir; in the morning. Q. What time in the day was it Brockway saw you ? A. In the afternoon. , Q. Did you show Brockway youir back? A. No, sir. Q. Did yoiu call his attention in any way to your condition? A. He could see itt; I did. Q. rou had your clothes on? A. Yes, sir; but I oofuidn't! stand; I was all dTawn away in flesh; I had no flesh on me; I was skinny, drawn down. Q. The third day what occurred? A. Dr. Wey came in the moim- ing and examined me, amid sotoin after I was up in the hospital. Q. What did Dr. Wey siay? A. He asked me different questioms, if I was ever afflicted with any disease; I told him no. Q. Then you weire taken to the hospital? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long did you stay in the hospital? A. Quite om three nwxnths. < Q. For what were you tlreated wMle in thie hoBpdital? A. For an abscess, aaid my back was diiiessied. Q. Wheneabouts upon yooir person was the abscess? A. Bight kere (indioatinig). , Q. Hare yoai the abscess still? A. Yes, sia-. Q. When did that fimt show itself? A. The flnat! time it showed itself was when Dr. Wey came up to see me in the mborndng; I didn't know what it was, nothing bnt pain all the time; the night watchmian came around that night; I was gpoaiuing; he asiked the reason and I told him; and Dr. Wey was theire the next morn- ing and he seen it and ordered me to the hospital. Q. Before you were taJien to the hospital j'^oii had a severe pain in your side? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which side? A. Right. Q. "VS^ereabouts, near the groin? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Dr. Wey examined that? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did he find there? A. A big lump there. Q. When did you flret discover or know there was a lum.p theire? A. I didn't know, bmtl it may have come froim the beating; I discovered as soon as he commenced tapping me ainound. Q. Did you know it was there before Dr. Wey came? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever had anything of that kind before? A. Never in my life. Q. Had you ever been troubled with sorofula? A. No, sir. Q. Or any skin disease? A. No, sir. Q. Ever been under a dootolr's care before? A. Never in my life. Q. Had you ever been doctored for anythinig asi fair as you know ? A. No, sir. Q. Had your health up to that time been good in every respect? A. Yes, sir. Q. When taken to the hospital wfajat were you treated for there? A. The abscess. Q. What else? A. I don''t know anything else they could treat me for there; they fixed up my back. Q. What did they do for your back? A. Put salve on it. Q. Who did that? A. Mr. Myeirei, under Dr. Wey's direction!. Q. The assi'Stant applied it? A. The steward. Q. 'Did you hear Dr. Wey give hijn direction in reference to the manner in which he should treat you? A. No, sir. Q. Or what applicartion he should make? A. No, sir. Q. What, if anything^ did he do in referemoe to the abscessi? A. When Dr. Wey had lanced it Myers, the hospital stewaird, always cleaned it Q. How long was it affceip you were taikiein to the hosipital before it was lanced? A. I coraldn'fti siay; I went off into unioonsciousiQesa 857 Q. Yoiu were umcoinisioiioiuia for a while in tihie Woaipital? A. Yes, sir. Q. Hc)w long a time ? A. I couldn't exactly say. Q. Oan^'t yoiu give amy idea of it? A. No^ sir. Q. WaM it moire tHiam a day? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Several d'ayisi? A. I slwiild say iU wias a few days I knew nortiMng. Q. You don't know anything about how long youi were m thiait ciomditiom? A. No, sir. Q. Wh.at is tli'e last tMng you ocecoUectt before yoiu went into that stajte? A. I recollect 'sitting in bed in the hoisipital. Q. Who was about you? A. Myers ; Dr. O'Brien, the surgeon alt the time, or asisistant, and Dr. Wey, and different pa;tients around the bed. Q. How many days was it after you were taken to the hospital btetfor© you went itnto that sitalte? A. I should say aibout a day or two. Q. Whatt is thte! first thing you recollect when you returned to corasiciousnesis. A. Finding myisieM bandaged up. Q. How bandaged? A. Around the waist here; I was ficsed up around here for the ajhsioess; my back was ail smart; the minute I would take off my shirt the shiirt would stick to tlie scab. Q. Were there any isoresi upon your back before you were punished? A. No, sir. Q. Do you know of any cause for the sores that were upon your back when you canue to coiisciousmess, except the idjury you received from the paddle? A. No, sir. Q. How long did Dr. Wey or the physician continue, to treat you in the hospital? A. All the 'time I was there; atooult three months. Q. After that time where did you gO'? A. As soon as I could get out of bed I walked on crutches; soon after I went out and worked around the yard. Q. How long did you use crutchesi? A. J guess a week. Q. Then were you put to lany employment? A. No, sir; I had my work to do; I was busy aax>und Hie hospital after Kitiat; then Dr. Wey gave me work to do out in the yaird. Q. How long did fm. remain in the reformatory after you left the hospital? A. I made a perfect record lafter that; after I left the hospital was about a year. Q. What had your record been up to the time the charge was inade laigatnist you that you had been impiPoperly disltrilbuting theee blanksi? A. Perfect; sttraight nines. Q. Had yoiu ever been in the red suit before thait? A. Never. 108 858 Q. WihuaJt is the fact with Teferenice to (tihis abscess comibiimiiiig? A. It giTes me coratinual paim; I oam't work at my trade; 1 am. a compostoip and I canft stand at) my case without a coutinual pain ruuning through the right leg; the le^g is swollen up \evy stout and heavy; I can't work enough so asi to satisfy my boss; requires too much walking. Q. Show Dr. Smith where that abscess is ? A. Here (indicating). (Witness exhilbitts the aBsoess to Dr. Smitlh and Dr. We^.) judge GUbert, — Dr. Smith, what do you find ? Dr. Smith. — ^I find a cicatrix there quite deep, about an inch long, about a couple of inches from the anterior superior spine, the middle liae, about the region where the abscess forms, and in these cases of appendicitis I should say, from the history of it, is something of that nature. I should judge from hie description of it it was an injured gland, but I feel no gland there injured. That \\(iu]d leave the symptoms he complains of, stiffening of the leg. Q. I wish you would .show the doctor of the committee how far around your body these bruises that you referred to extended ? A. They extended around here. Q. State how far they extended around on the side ? (The witness indicates.) Q. How near to the point Where you cl^m the abscess is ? A. About there. Q. When you were in the solitary what opportunity had you to he down, straighten out in bed, or amy thing else provided for you ? A. I had to lie down in order to be chained. Q. You were chaiaed in such a manner you couldn't stand up ? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that during the entire seven days you were in tihe soli- tary you were compelled to lay down? A. Yes, sir. Q. On the stone floor, tlie iron floor ? A. An iron floor, I believe, and had a mattress in there. Q. What kind of a bed did you have ? A. Merely a mattress. Q. About what was your weight when you went into the reform- atory ? A. I guess about 120. Q. What was your weight when you came out ? A. They recorded in my papers, I isuppose, 125. Q. About the time you came out of the hospital were you w^eighed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you weigh then ? A. I weighed the first time I was weighed after I came out of the hosj^ital was when I came home, 125. ^ Q. Were you weighed jmt before you went into the liospitaJ after you came out of the rest ciu'e ? A. 2i(o, sir. 859 Q. There is a little mis'understan.ding in reference to the time when you were taken to the jsolitary and the trme when you were taken to the hospital; how many days was it between the time you were paddled the last time and the timie when you were taken to the hospital ? A. Three days at the most, part of three days. , Q. As I understand it, the lagt time you were paddled you were taken directly to the rest cure ? A. Yes, sir. Q. From the rest cure you were taken directlv to the hospital ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Therefore there were only about three days between ;the time you were paddled the la,st time and when you went to the hospital the last time ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You were taken to the rest cure from the solitaries ? A. Yes, sir. ■ ' Q. At what time did this abscess begin to form so you were taken from the rest cure ? A. While I was in the resit cure it began to develop ; I didn't know it was an abscess until Dr. Wey examined me. Q. How long had you been in the rest cure when you first dis- covered the trouble ? A. I felt the pain right along; the second day it bothered me a good deal. Q. You stated in, our testimony the paddle was perforated; liow do you know it was perforated ? A. I could see by the dipoppings as t!he paddle would be held up, a little bilt of perfora- tions. Q. Are you sure of th^jt? A. Most poisdtive. Q. Was it laj-ge or small? A. Smiall. j Q. Did it enteaid the whole length of the paddle? A. Tliere weren'ti imidh a large lemgtlh of them. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Have yooi anythiiiig you can say wiltla referenice to the force with which those blows were given? A. I can say they were given with good foixje. Q. Mr. Brockway take off his coat before using t|he paiddle? A. He did; one time he flew in a rage and took his ooat off. Q. Whait did he say? A. Ordered me over to tlie AvaU and com- mended paddling me. Q. Whait did he say while he was taking ofi his| ooat? A. He would make me confess; he says: "There is one way of doing it and we wiU get the confession from yon;'' I toM him' he oonld get no confasisioiDi I was innooent of. m.: 860 Q. Was the pain severe caused by the blows? . A. Yes, siir; art first after tliat I could hardly feel them; seemed to be dead to the f eeltag. Q. Didn't you finally confess to Mr. Brockway you had dis- tributed those pa.pers? A. No, sir; I did mot. * Q. Not in the presy the parties interested upon both sides, but I will 862 suggest this, that it would seem to me to be unnecessary to put questions to witnesses which, do not bear in some way upon their credibUitj, and while it may be proper to put that class^of ques^ tions, I think it is entirdv for the committee to say how far that shall be carried forward. Mr. Stanchfieldl— I care nothing about that particular question. ilr. Litchfield. — I think you have carried that far enough. By Mr. Litchfield: ii. You claim you wene unjustly accused of an offense against the rales of the reformatory; I would like to ask you about the trial you had, if there was any trial ? A. I was first brought to the bath-room. (l You were tlien asked if yOu had stolen those examination papers ? A. Yes. sir. Q. You denied it ? A. Certainly. (i. ^Miat happened thereupon ? A. As I have said, he asked me if I wouldn't confess, beforie he had to resort to some of these (reatments; I told hinS no, I had nothing to confess to^ and he paddled me. , (J. After asking- you whether you had committed this offense, on your denial he went on and paddled you without confronting you \^'ith any of the witnesses ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he tell you who thei witnesses were ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ask to be confronted wiih those witnesses ? A. I did. Q. You had no opportunity given yon of really tirying the, que^on as to whether you were guilty or not? A. I had no opjKjrtunity whatever. Q. Do you remember how many of' these witnesses there were against you? A. I asked the question, "Even if the people had told you that tihey may be telling falsehoods; I am not in league with any of them, and I am not guilty of any of them; I have bad a perfect record;" he aeiked me how many nines I had; I told him; I was in the blue suit at the time and was holding a poisitiom in the military; a position of truist. ' ^ Q. "V\Tiat position did yon have in the militairy? A. First sergeiant. Q. You wei'e not bronght before a conrt-mairtiial of any Ijind at all? A. No, sir. ' Q. You are perfectly sm-e you didn't know lanytihing about it until you were taken to the bath-room? A. Noi, sir. Q. Who were the witnesises against you? A.* Prescott and Wilson; I believe he said WUsom had told on me, and theire was no nejoeseitjy of my ta.king a denial. 863 Q. Theirei wene precisely two ■wTitneases land no mjore? A. Yes, mr; Prescofbt and Wilson. Q. Wlhen yooi were flrsit sent for to go to No. 4, was it iiten Col. Bryan cianae to you? A. I 'believe it was Ool. 'Bryan. ' Q. Did he not reaid to you tlien aj sitatemjenit ini writing wMct he iiaid witli him as to what you were aiccused of? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whiatt answer did you make? A. I told htm 1 was not guilty of it. Q. Are you snre you told Mm you were not guilty? A. Yes^ ^. Q. ■ Are you STire you did not; reftise to edther deny your guilt or affirm it? A. I denied nothtnig or affirmed nothing; I tiold hin;i I knew nothing at all about it. Q. After that you were taken to No. 4? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was th.e siame isitiatement read to yon again by Mr. Brockway? A. I don't recollect whetlier he read that same statement or not, but I know he made an acousationi against ipe tliere that tihese people Wad given np. Q. Whiat answer did you give Mr. Brockway? A. I told him I was not guilty. Q. This statement that Col. Bryan read to you ; did it not pur- port to be thJe istatement of two witnesses, Wilson and Presicott? ^ A. I am not exadtly isure what witnesses it wais. Q. It purtpopted to be the statement of some witnesses? A. Yes, sk. ' By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you know whe+lier you were punfelhal, paddled, before or after you vrere reduced in gnade? A. All the time I was punished I had a blue suit on me; I hadn't my clothes changed until after I was taiken from the bath-room. Q. You had your blue suit on when you were chained in the solitary? A. Yes, sir. Q. And down to the end of the sie\'en days thaiti you refer to? A. I lam no quite sure whether the last day or not; I know I had my blue suit on most all the time I was paddled, and I had the blue suit on in the solitary. Q. How does an imnate know that he has been reduced to the lowest, grade? A. When he gets his clothes ehamged. Q. Not until his cloithes are changed? A. No, sir. Q. Can you tell us how mai^ dayis it was before you were taJcen to the hospital that your clothes were changed from the blue to the red? A. I know it was after one of the paddlingisi I got; I am not exiactly sure. 864 William Parks, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. WTiere do you reside ? A. New York city. Q. Wliat is your occupation ? A. I haven't any occupation at all; I ain't able to work; I am a cripple. Q. AATiat is tlie trouble ? A. I had both of my legs broken in the reformatory. Q. You have been in the P]lmira reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you sent there ? A. March, 1885. Q. Fi'om what place ? A. From the New York Tombs, to the Elmira reformatory. 1 Q. For what offense ? A. Burglary in the second degree. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Yes, sir; and asked to be sent there. I Q. When were you released ? A. I was transferred from there the same year; I wasn't released. Q. Ti'ansferred ^^ hwe ? A. To Auburn prison. Q. TSTien a\ ere you released from Auburn prison ? A. Eighteen hundivd and eighty-nine, January. (}. Were you punished in the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Ho\\ many limes ? A. Twice; I have been pa.ddled once, btut and kicked before I ^\ as paddled; I have beea paddled once, but the punishment I got before, threw down a flight of stairs, was worse than paddling, and punched. Q. "\^Tien was that? A. In.Mftrch, the same month I went there; I -nas only there four days about when ft happened to me. Q. What had you been doing ? A. I was asisigned to the foundry and put on heavy work, and wasn't able to do the work; [ was chalked in one day, they sent over to the foundry to me on,e day to go with one of the men to the hospital ; Dr. Wey examined me, and told me what was the matter ; he examined my back, and said I was young, and must get used to hard work; I got semfc back to the foundry again, Q. How old were you then ? A. About 22 years of age. Q. What had been your employment before you, went to the reformatory ? A. I tended bar for a while; I never done any hard work. Q. St/ate the particulars in reference to the punishment ? A. The day I was chalked in and sent to tlie guard-room to be pun- ished I was kept in at dinner time and there were two chalk marks put on my door; after all hands had went out to work a little after 1 o'clock some one came to my door and brought me dowm to the guard-room floor; the superintendent and Mr. Beach wei-e there; they looked at me and Mr. Brockway said, "What 865 IS the trouble with, you, Parks;" I told Mm I wasn't feeling well and I wasn't able to do the heavy worik, and begged of him to give uie a lighter pattern to start in on; he siays, "No, you won't get a lighter pattern; you have to do the work I give you," and he gave me a smash ta the jaw, and he says to Beach, " Go along;" I started to go along a big flight of iron stairs, and I got a kick or punch and drove down the flight of stairs, and before I could get on my feet they were down on top of me, and I got kicked and punched there and talien to the bath-room and paddled; I was paddled while in the second grade; I got degraded in the third grade, and brought in the solitary and chained down, hand and foot, three days and nights; they fetched me in a little soup, but T was sick and couldn't eat it; Mr. Beach, came and says to me, ''Axe you ready to receive your medicine;" I says, "There is no use of your punishing me, I ain't able to do the work; give a man. a show for his life;" he says," I will fix you, I tell you;" I says, " I am willing to do anything you tell me;" he siays^ " You have got to do what I put you at;" I saw there was no use talking; he went away, and came back Mon- day or Tuesday and says, "Are you ready ta receive your Tnedicinie;" I says-, "If you are going to give it to me; I suppose you will give it to me anyhow;" he sayS': " I am going to send you out to work to-day; " I saysi: "I am will- ing to dio .ainything I can;" he broughiti me outL , ij. On this occasion that you were punisbed how mamy blows did you receive? A. I guess twelve or fiffceeiu Q. "Wbere? A. AoroBs the baxdi. ' Q. Did you receive amy blows over your hiead? A No, sir; not while in tihe batlh-room;; before I went in the bath-room; I received plenty of that. ' Q. Leave any marks upon you? A. No. Q. You don't clatml to have amy scaffs caused' by that beatinig? A^ No. Q. WbUe ini the solitary were- you cbained down? A. Yes, sir. Q In wibati manner? A. The left arm and the left leg. q' The righJt arrii was chained to what? A. My left ann was chained to the comer of the cell; there was an old mattress there. Q. To what was your leg chained? A. To the other end, of the wall. „ „ T 1- T Q It was a three-corner' oeU? A. Four-comer cell, I believe. q! Did the doctor visit you during that time? A. No, sir; he *^i)°^%at food do vou say you had? A. Brought me some soup f>ti w some stuff; the keeper says: "Why don't you try to eat something, young fellow?" I says: "I am sick; I couldn't touch it," 109 866 Q. Where did ttey take jou to fvom. the cell? A. He sent me ouife to tlLc foundry in that weak condition, after being in there tihpee dajjs, to do tihe mnne work I wasn't] able Ui do before that; [ tried to put up a moild, and the instructor wnis hel|>ing- me, aJid the men wasn't in half an hour ^'he'n tIhe big brute, Beach, came out and accused me of having tobaicooi. Q. Was it true that toii had tobacco? A. No, sin; I never chewed tobacco in luy life, even to tMs day; he si.^'**: " Wliepe did yniu get that tobacco;" I says: "I haven't go no toibacBOi; I never chewed tobacco;" he says: "Yon lie; do ycni tell me to my face you haven't any tobajccoi; " I s<)\'«: "Certainly, I don't use toibaioaoi;" he says: "I will fix yon when I get you inside; yon have tobaccio;" I sayw: "No, f^ir; I have not;" «hen ho went to walk away from me he hit me a punclh in the stomach. Q. ^\^Ialt do you mean by punch? A. He punched me as he wal]^(^ a^^ay; "I -will fix ^on when I get yom inside;" Mt me a ^tranoh unaware; it knoclced me riuhl down; I didn't attempt to do nothing; I stood right there until 12 o'clock; I seen them wait- ing fni- me inside. Beach and Winnie; I lid! you beg of him to stop ? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. Did he stop ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you, while he was paddling you, promise to do better ? A. Yes, sir; he let up on me that day. Q. How wajs it an the other occasiomls when you promis;ed tO' do beitJter? A. He siays: " I wiQ make you do it now oir I wiU IdM you." Q. While he wais punishing yotu, did you, at any time, become unciomisoiouis? A. Noi; oooe time I felt all dizzy iii' my head, but I meveir was unconscious. Q. Did you, at any time, fall upon the flototr? A. No, sir. Q. Were you, ai| amy time, umaible to retuim to your cell? A. No; I was weak afterwardisi; the next day I was weak' ajnd' had pain in my back, and I could hairdiy goi to work. , « Q. WaJS theire any occasion when "they had toi carry you from your celi? A. No, sir. , ■ ^ 870 Q. Were tikere any marks upon yoaiir back made by the paddle? A. Yes, siir; a mark right there. Q. Is thieire a mark theire now ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was the skin broken:? A. Yes, sir; it tuimed all brownish from it. Q. Did the' blood run? A. Yes, sir; it was bleeding. '' Q. Upon each occasion whein he paddled yon did he bireak tte sldn? A. Jso, sir; only the ante time. Q. You have the scar on you now? A. Yes, sdir. Q. Is it plain tlo be seen? A. Yes, sir-. Q. Will you show it to Dr. Smith? A. Yes, sir. Q. Tell me whait you had been doing that caused him to punish you at that lime? A. Because I couldn't do my task, and for a couple of reports I had. Q. WTiat was the task you were obliged tio do? A. Moke a thour sand pipes in the pipe-shop. Q. In one day? A. Yes, sir. (Witness exhibits his person to the coouniittee.) The witness. — I never had that before. Q. On which side is that scar? A. The right side. Q. Had you any soair there before yon wemt into the refonmar fory? A. Xo, sir. i Q. Do you swear positive that scai" wais made by the blows you received fromi ^h: Brockway? .V. Yes, sir. Q. Are there any other marks upon our body causedi by the blows you i-K-eived theire? A. No, sir. Q. Did any of the otiheoq officers oif the refoirmialloiry strike you except yiv. Brockway? A. Mr. Winnie hit me once in tlie face when I waM in the bath-axxmi. Q. ^ATio was there? Mr. Winmie, Mr. McLangihltn and Mr. McM'Sh. . .i Q. Wheire did he strilce you? A. In the face, on the side of the cheek. \ Q. On your right cheek? A. Yes, sir. Q. Leave ajiy mark? A. No, sir. Q. Strike you with what? A. His fist. , Q. Knock yon down? A. No, sir; just oame over and he punched me in tlie face. Q. Did you stagger? A. I staggered up agaiinst the wall. Q. ^^liy did he strike you? A. I db'u't know. Q. Hadn't you lieen saying something to him before thaA? A. Xo, sir; lie shoved me in the doorway and says: " Got over there; " and as I gortl over he pulled out amd hit me and knocked me against the wall. ' Q. Anybody else sitrike you? A. Noi, sir. 871 Q. Did yooi siee amy other immafte struck by any ckwiay. (}. AMiett'e? A. In the bath-room. ld me he M^ould let me gO' off easy, land asi I was going ooit of the room Principal Keeper Winnie gave me a kick and sent me six or seven feet acroBs tlhe hall. Q. You say you Avere struck fonr oir five blows? A. Yes, sir; at that paddling; I didn't connt' the strokes on ithe face; lie gave me abooit seven all together. Q. Did they leave any marks upon yonr body from that paddling? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you the marks still? A. Yesi, siiri; I have. Q. On your ba«k? A. Yesj, sdir. 879 Q. Make youir tack bteedi? A. Yes, sir; lie dSId. Q. Who was preaaniti? A. Principial Keepem Winnie, Ool. Halpin, Mr. liazenby anid Mr. McLaiughMn,' and Mr. Spencer wias ,sitaiidiinig outside the door; tliajt ifei his general poisb; it basi a little window in the dtoor, larad as soon as be sees one mian cioimng out be opens tbe doon. i Q. Were tbere seveipal otbens paddled at tbe same time? A. Yes, sir; aboi^t twelve or itbiirteen men. Q. Is tbiajt all you bave to' say in reference tO' tbat pumishmeait? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yoai may stafte tbe facts relatling toi tbe next punishment, wblicb you daim was severe? A. The isecond paddling be give me I wrote a note; I put down, " Grentlemen: Please give tbis man fifty dollars on my name;" only fooling, and I put Mr. Brockway's zip on tbat; bis signaiture; be bais isort of a "B." witb a line coming tbrougb it; be was sitting tbere and took it up and read it; the man on the istand, StaatS, a. convict, called hiin up and wianted >to know wluat it was; be brougbt tbe note up and Staats made a report ont; tbis was on Satturdlay; Monday as I ciame into' my room at 12 o'cloick, I was cbalked in; I belie^ne I was tiie first ot second man bnoiugbt in jthie batb-roomi tbat day; Brookwiay held the reporlt up to me; "Forging tbe general superintendent's sign'^ture on a note;" be aisked me did I do it; I says, "fYes, sir; I did;" as isoon ais I said, " Yes:, sir; I did;" be bit me a pumich; be siays, " I will giive you fifty doUians on my name; get up there." Q. Wbcere did be istJrike you? A. In tbe face, between tbe eyes, and! I remember pilain I bad two blue eyesi and my nose was knocked apart for about a week or soi; it wasi bleeding every day. Q. Maike your nose bleed at tbe time? A. Yesi, sir; there were spots of blotod all over tbe bath-room from the place vv^ere I got istruck over ibo the window. Q. Are you snre you stated aU tbat was siadd between you and Mr. Brockwiay upon tbat oocasioin before tbe blow wasi struck? A. Yes, .sir; on that occasion. Q. Go on? A. He hit me, and says, " Goi over there;" I got over there and be paddled me, and I held up my bandis and pleaded for mercy; I sayss "Mr. Brockway, let: m'e go; please let me go," 'and as I tumedi ai^ound be gave me a lash: across tbe faioe; I turned airoiund again and be saygi, "Keep your eyes on Mr. Winnie;" but tbe blows were too severe and I turned around again and be kicked me in tbe stbnes; in tbo bag. ' Q. Which side? A. Thie right side. Q. What further oiccurred, if anything? A. I couldn't tell you wblat. occurred after tbat; I was uniconscioas, and I woke up and I found mysielf in a cell oveir on the south block. 880 Q. Whiait condition were yon in -when yon woke up or cam© to? A. I was laying on the bed, and ttere was a blamke* around me; my pants and clothes were off and there was a blanket wrapped around me; I began tx> cry out, "Where am I," amd tlhe hall man comes around and siayB, "You are all right, G-roes;" r says, "Did they cut me;" I didn't know what I was about; I hollered out, " Did they cut me; did they cut me." (}. Have you felt any injurious effect from the kick since then ? A. "i'es, sir. Q. Btate iu what respect ? A. About two or three weeks ago, as 1 Avas walking along from the shop, I felt the pain in here; I couldn't Avalk any more; in the reformatory I often suffered from it; 1 often went to Dr.- Wey and told him there was something Uie uiatler with the rupture, and he said, "Lay in," Q. I>id Tou have a rupture before you were kicked ? A. No, sir. (J- Did you have a rupture immediately after the kick ? A. ' Yes, sii- I Q. folate what there was about that ? A. My bag was swollen u'p. if I am allowed to use the term, that part was all swollen up and 1 was swollen up here! I can remember well that I couldn't move ujy feet or my body; all I could move was my head and my hand at that time; I coulda't move at all. Q. UcAv long were you in bed confined that way ? A. I was *:i!nfined tliere at least a day; then I was taken up in a hospital. Q. \Vho treated you ia the hospital ? A. Dr. Wey. <>. For what ? A. For the rupture. Q Did h(! furnish you a truss ? A. Yes, sir; he did. Q. J )o you wear the truss now ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Ha\e you worn it during the entire time since then ? A. Yes, sir; 1 couldn't do without the truss; taking the truss off of me is talking my life. (i. Who was present when you say Brockway kicked yoii ? A. ^[l•. Winnie,. Colonel Halpin, Mr. McLaughlin and Mr. Murphy or Mr. Lazenby, one of those two men; I believe there were five in that bath-room at the time. (.i. Where were you standing at the time he kicked you ? A. TTp at the window-sill, with my hands up. Q. 1 v/ish you would state fuUy and minutely all that was said hei-ween you and Mr. Brockway before he kicked you ? A. He told me to go up to the window when I first came in the bath- room; he read the report to me; the report read, "4346, Gross, forging the general superintendent's signature on a note;'-' the sn]>eiiuterid€nt says to me, "Did you write that note. Gross;" I says, "Yes, sir; I did;" he says, "Get up there; I will give you fifty dollars on my name," and he hit me; I was in a corner like 881 this; there were four or five keepers aTOund me, and Mr. Brockway was standiDg over to the wall; as I told TiiTin I wrote the note he punciiof] me and told me to go up there. Q. How many strokes did you get ? A. Three strokes; it was oulv a lew days after he paddled me the second time; the marks were fresh yet on my body. • ' Q. Confine yourself to answering the questions I put; I want to ' know ju,st what was said and what occurred iinmediately before you claim that he kicked you ? A. He told me to turn around; I turned around to him once, and he struck me across the face t^ice, and he says, "Keep your eyes on Mr. Winnie;" I turned around pnd looked at Winnie, and when the next blow came down it was so severe I turned around and looked at Mr. Brockway and fays, "I lease, Mr. Brockway, let up;" and with that he kicked me; 3. says, "Oh, Mr. Brockway, I will behave myself;" he says, " That is my name, that is my name." ; Q. Have you stated everything that was said immediately before you received the kick ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you say or do anything except what you have stated? A. Ko, sii-: I believe that is all I can remember; I am pretty sure that was all. Q. Yon may show your rupture to Dr. Smith and Dr. Wey. (The witness exhibits the same.) Q. Do you claim you still have marks tipon your body cauged by the paddling you received ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Show those marks to the doctor. (The witness exhibits his baok to the doictors.) i ;: Dr. Smilth. — There is nO apparent mpture there now; the cont- ditions are such that if he didn't wear a truss the bowel would oome down. I should say there was a rupture there. There' are one or two somall red marks jusltl on the edge of the band that goes around his body on the left hip ; 1\ should thtuk those were catised by 'something else than the band, lower down) on the left hip; n grate; they put a pair of handcuffe right, here, and as soon as they opened they put another pair here; the\' took these ones off and took me down to the bath-room; Mr. Winnie takes down, my clothes; Mr. Brockway comes in and tiaps me on the shoulder; " Ounninghaan, I have got you; " with tha* he strikes me in the eye with a big ring he wears on his right hand!, and marte me here. ! i 896 Q. Cut your face? A. Yes, sir; a liMe scratch, right here; it wa^ only a scratch like, because I turned my head as soon as 'he tapped me on the shoulder; as soon as I saw it coming I ])ut my head one side, and with that tlhey took me down and chained me do-vnx for four days. Q. Did you dodge tlhe blow? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then he didn't strike you? A. Yes; he did strike mie slightly. Q. Slanting blow? A. Yes, siir. Q. Did it leave any mark upon yoiur face? A. No, sir. Q. What other punishment did you receive at that time? A. Tliat was the only punishment; the paddling and that. Q. How many blows did you receive? A. I couldn't count them -they came so quick. Q. Break the sldn upon your back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did it bleed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were you taken to ? A. To the solitary conflnelnent. Q. Were you chained in there? A. I was; yes, sir. Q. How long a time? A. Four days. Q. In what manner were you chained? A. Laying down; the in)H bar runs that way, and I was chained with this hand; the right one wais free; I had a bed and cup, and that is ail. Q. Were you chained by one hand to the sliding ring upom the bar that nms along one side of the cell? A. I was. Q. What food did you have while you were there? A. Two slices of bread and molasses, a cup of water, and' it was dirty watei' at that. Q. Was that all you received each day? A. Yes, sir. Q. You say you were there four days? A. Four days. (I. Did Dr. Wey see you while you were there? ' A. Only once. Q. Where were j'ou when the salve was applied to your neck? A. In the solitary. Q. So thart; his assistant saw you while you were there? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he see you each day? A. Eaeh day he came around. Q. Were you iu the solitairy at any oth-eT time? A. Never; that wa^ the only time I was ever there. Q. What was your record be/ore they claimed you failed to perform your task? A. First class; I was only punished twice. Q. What was your task? A. One 'hundred and twemty-flve brooms, and 150. Q. You worked in the broom department? A. Yes, sir; there were three grades of the broom, six, seven, eight and nine; four grades; you had to do ninety-two of one, 110 of anoither, 125 and 150 of another. ' ( 897 Q. Your task on two grades of brooms wm 125 and 150? A. Yes, sir. i Q. Why couldn't jou perform your task? A. Because I didn't have time enougli to learn the businesis. Q. What had been your oocupatiom before? A. Driver. Q. How maaiy could you do? A. I could pretty near do jsixrfcy or seventy; land then vs^ihen I igot brq^e into it I could db' it ail easy too. • , Q. After you were punisihed; after you were released from the solitary, did you perform your task? A. I did. Q. Had no troubte? A. No, sir; but another mian, Lord have mercy on his soul, he is dead now, helped me when I ^rst came out. Q. For how long a time? A. For two months. Q. After you learned how to do the 'Work you had no trouble? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Wa^'t this the trouble; didn't you absolutely refuse to per- form ypur task? A. Never; I told them I would do the beist I could. Q. Do you jsay in every other respect your record was: good? A. Good outside of sohoioling. » ' Q. In school you weren't a success? A. No; I was not. , Q. Were you ever reduced in grade before refusing to per- form your task or failing to perform' your task? A. Only once. Q. You had been placed in the red grade before? A. Indeed I was. ' . I Q. Were you in the red grade at the time you failed to perform your task? A. About one month. Q. Were you ini the red gradtei atl the tiimie it was cliaimed that you had failed to perform your task? A; I was not. Q. What grade were you ini tthat time? A. Second grade. Q. Had you been in the red' grade befoone that tiknie? A. No, sir; I was not. ■ > ' I Q. So that up to thalt time you had been trying to keep youu standiug in the reformaJtiofry? A. I did. Q. Trying to work your way up imto the hilghesiti gnadie? A. Yes|, !sir. I I ! ) By Mir. Litchfield: l Q. Oan you give me the time at which you claim you were burned out of your cell? A. I don't know whether it was" 1887 or 1888. 1 Q. What was the shape of the cell you were in then? A. JtM ai square. , Q. Waani't ithreet-oomeiried? A. Not, sir. . . 113 Q. WMdh sMe of it. were jdk !a way thajt you believe they understood and knew you would use the knife iuj that way if you had la chance? A. Yes, sir. Q. Before they used the iron did you tell ithem' you didn't have that knife? A. I did; I showed them' eviery pockett I had in my clothes; turned them inside and out'. Q. Why didn't you say to them, " If you jviU not us© the iron I will come to the door volujitajrily?" A. They didn't give me a chance to speak, all don© quicldy as if you came in ■thart door pretty near^ Q. Thart is the only explanation you can give of that? A. That is all. , Q. At the time that you were making ithpse tlhreats did you believe that you hadn't been fairly dealt with? A. Yes^ sir. Q. And up to the time you aame to the conclusion' ithaft you were unfairly dealt with, you had maintained a ^ood recoojd there? A. Yes, isir. ) Q. You say your employment is tliat of a firiver? A. Yes, siip; for Mr. Waliers on Greene isitreet'. ■ ^ Q. What has been your recomi since yOu aame O'ut of the prison? A. Pnetttiy good, * .' ^ Q. In what respect? A. Worked every day isince I pame out pretty near. / Q. Have you committed any ottense? A. I did. Q. Wihat was that? A. Stole a roil of clorfMng; I don't go bajck on lamything. ; Q. Were yo'U convicted? A. Indeed I wajs. Q. Where were you imprisoned for that? A. Sing Sing; and semt from Sing Sing to Aubumi. Q. How long were you in prislan? A. Twenty months. Q. When did yo'U return? A. Twentieth day of October, 1892. Q. What 'has your record been since that? A. Veiy well; I will never go back any more. / Q. You now feel you lare reformed? A. Yes, sir. • 904 Q. Wihere do you tMnk you received the greatest portikm of your refonaation, in prison or ia tlie reformatory? A. In prison, in Anbnm; I would nattier 'be thetre than flye minutes in Ekniia. Q. You say, ;So far as your experience goes, and so far as inipiTiSomment or confinement, has ■worked a reformation in you, the reformiation has been btrouight about by your confinement in prison and not in the reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. The reformatoiry reformation had the opposite effect? A. A. Indeed it did and it will have the opposite effect of whoever is sent therej ' Q. Didn't you receive some of your reiformatary improvemenit, or pome of the improvement at Clinton? A. Clinton is a palace to Eknira; there is the man that went with me and he only gave me one saadwich iustead of two. Eugene Patrick Kelly, being duly sworn, testified as follows: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Were you ever in the Elmira refo!nma(tO!ry? A. Yes, sir. Q. From what place were, you sent? A. New York. Q. Eor whiait? A. Called it burglary, first degree. Q. What do you caU it? A. I called it intoadciaitibn. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. No, sir; I did not. Q. Had a trial? A. Yesi, adr. Q. And was convicted? A. Yes, sir. ( Q. ^Tien were you released from the refoirmatory? A. Eight- een hundred and eighty-nine. Q. Were you transferred to amy other prison? A. No, sir. Q. WhUe in the reformatory, were you puniislied? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you claim you were severely punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon how many differ^t occasions? A. Only once I was punished; that is, physical punishment x Q. Who punished you? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. How many blows from the paddle did you receive? A. iSvelve or a little over; I am not sure. Q. You may state the facts relating to that punishment? A. I wUl; I was working in the brush ^op/at this time and we had a task to do; each man had a tapk to perform and there was some waste stock thrown by some men behind me, alongside of' me, and Mr. Phillips came along and told me to pick up the stock and use it, and I told him it didn't belong to me and I should not use it, that I had my task to perform; he says, " Pick it up;" I says, "No, )str; I wUl not," and he grabbed hold of me to compel me to pick it up and he made a blow at me and I istruck back in self- defense; Mr. Warren Gardner and Hugh Brockwaj^ brougiht me in 905 from tte shiop iinto tlie cell and dbaJfeed' me in; tie next diay Mr. Brioiokw'ay, Mr. BeaidH and Mr. Wairreii binoTiglit m© down in tUe bath-room; had a rope thepe, handcuffed me, put the rope through and pulled me up to tihe iron bar. Q. When they hauled up before the window, did you still stand on the floor? A. They just hold you up purposely so every time he hits you wiih the piadldle you will not get down. Q. "Wiera you sttanding on th^Tfloor while yoiu were receiVinlg the paddliogi? A. Held by a nopie; Mr.' Winniei sitajnds one side hold- ing that rape and' Mr. Beaioh sttiands tMa side;, and Mr. Broickway sitandls this side; I got twelve or a little more and! one over thfe eye; that was the oady time I was punished there outiside oi getting Bolitaipy confinieonent oni bread and water. Q. Did the blow over your head leave any mark ? A. Yes, sir; I had a mark across here from the paddle and black and blue. Q. Out the flesh ? • A. No; just a little blue; not much. Q. Was the skin upon your back broken ? A. Oh, yes; my skin was broken. Q. Bleed ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. Have you anything further to say in reference to that pun- ishment ? A. No. Q. Were you at any time in the hospital ? A. No, sir; I never was in the hospital. Q. Were you at any time confined in the solitary ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Chained there ? A. No; I wasi not chained. Q. How long wer& you kept in the solitary ? A. Forty-one or forty-two days. Q. Do you mean in the three^corner cell ? A. No ; the rest-cure cells. Q. What was your food while there ? A. Bread and water twice a day. Q. What were you put in the rest cure for ? A. For refusing to get around double-quick time in ttie yard; Mr. Woods had charge of me that time, an inmate in the prison; he told me to get ai"ound, and I was sick at the time. Q. What had your record been up to the time you refused to use that material in the brush department ? A. I was only there a short while that time. < Q. How long had you been there ? A. I wasn't quite there a year. Q. What was your record up to that time, good or bad ? A. Pretty fair record. Q. What was there in reference to Oaptain Woods' or'dering you around in the yard ? A. I was sick; kind of short taken, and he told uM to get anouinld in double-quick time; I tdd him I wasn't 906 capable of getting around; he said he would take the siword and break it over my head if I didn't get ai-ound; I told him he would do nothing of the Idnd; he ordei-ed a couple of the sergeaoits to take me in, and I was reduced to the third grade and got in soli- tary confinement. Q. At tlie tinif were you unable to parade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was the matter ? A. I was sick in the bowels. Q. While you were confined in the reformatory did you act in any olficial position ; were you an inmate officer ? A. I had charge of men there the last few months I was there. Q. "\^liat was your duties ? .V. I was head hallman; had charge of so many men; in charge of the extension and the block, and the other hallman had Sunday work. Q. T\Tiat, if anything, do you know in reference to other inmates receiving punishment ? A. I have reference to Thomas Maloney; every time that he was sick he would be tpld that if hje came back again, he was in tlip physical culture class, he jwould be paddled, would be sent out; one evening he sent down word for me to come up; at that time Dr. Wey wasn't there, and I sent word up to the guard-room floor Maloney was vwy bad, sick, and wanted to see the hospital steward, and the hospital stewaa'd refused to come down, and Brockway seiut word up for Mtti to come down and s(^e Jlaloney; he came down and examined Maloney and says, "His puLsp bt^ats all right;" I says, "The siiperin- tendent says you had better give him something that will put him to sleep;" he says, " I will give him something to put him to slx-p," and the n<'xt moming he was dead; n coroner's inquest was held, and McNish C4ime along and told me to keep, my men ouit of the way until the thing was oveir; he was one of the hall-keepers. Q. Where was the inquest held ? A. In the hospital; that is where his body was brought. ' Q. Did you, as hallman, keep the men from going to the hospi- tal ? A. That was my orders. Q. Do you know who held the inquest ? A. No, sir; I do not; I didn't know it Q. Do you know whether this boy — what he had been doing the day before he died ? A. Yes, sir; he was ooit in the physical culitune class runntug anid trainiinig, I supposie, with diumlb- beUs, etc. Q. Had he been engaged in any employment a shotrt time befooie he died? ' A. Xo, sh. I Q. Northing except that' he was in the physical culture dass? A. That is all to my knowledge. _ > Q. What did yoiu slay to the assistants, if aaiythinig, with refeir- ence to what was the matter witlh this fellow, or what he claimed to be the matter? A. I didn't get noi orders to ttati effec*. 907 Q. You eimiply nequeisltedi tte asisiBtanlti to goi and' see ihim? A. Yea, sir. t / Q. Do yoiu kMW wihatl taanie ctf ikhe night it was that yow reqnieisiteid tih.e assistant to go and see him? A. I comldni't give the exact timie; it musit have been between 7 and 8 oi'olook in 'tlhe evening. Q. Do you know where Dr. Wey was at the timei? A. I do not; he wiasm^t at the pefoimiaJtbiry at that tiuue. Q. Do you know what tinie of the ni^t thisi boy died? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. Do you know whether antyone was in the cell with him, dur- ing the night? A. No, sir; there was ndbody in the cell with him. Q. About what time in the evening did yoiu leave him? A. I left him abont 9 o'clock. i Q. So far as yoiu know from tliafd time until .morning there wain't anyone in the cell with ihim? A. There was: not. Q. What time in the morning was it you leaimedl he wbb dead? A. "WTiein tfliley were taMng count in the morning. . Q. Do you remember an inmate by the namie of James Carey? A. Yesi, sir; 1 db. Q. What do yon know in reference to him? A. I was person- ally acquainted with him befoie he went to thel Elmira reforma- toy; he wias a strong, vigoromg fellow; he was getting physical' treatment for not doing his task. Q. What do you mean by physical treatmlent? A. Gretting pad- dled; that, is tiie phrase Mr. Broiclrway uisiesi; I know he had no oonsumption when he entered the institution; when he died it came in the Snmimairy, James Caney when he entered the insti- tution had consumption and died 6t oonsmniption. Q. What do you know in reference to his being punished from, time to time? A. Seeing him brought in and for writing nOtles to me. Q. What marks or bruises did you see upon him? A. He had a black eye and outs ora his face sieveral times to mj knowledge. Q. Did you see Mr. Winnie or Mr. Brockway strike this boy? A. Oh, no; inmates can''t see that. Q. Did you see him when he went into the bath-room? A. No, sir. Q. Did j^ou see him when he came out of the ba)th-room? A. Yes; I saw him after he came out of the bath-room. Q. When he came out, or after he came out, what marks did you see uipon him? A. You could see black and blue marks upon his face; he couldn't very well show me what miarks he had on his side or across his kidnieys. > Q. Did you ever examine his back after he had been to the bath- room? A. No, sir; only on his face. Q. How many differemfc oiccasiaiiB did you see h.e had marks upou his face? A. I\>vir or five different times. Q. Do you know when he was taken there the lasltl time before he died? A. No; he was in the hospital for a length of time befone he died. Q. Do yon know whaA he was taken to the bath-iobm for? A. Talking in the shop and not performing his task. , Dr. Smith. — I don't suppose he knows anything abont that pepsonaUy. I think all he said there aboult coinBium.pti.om sihioiuld be stricken out. \ Q. What do you know about inmates being burned oiut of their oeU, or taken out of their ceR with hot irotnis? A. I only know when I wap working in the hall at the time George Brown was burned; I didn't see him getting bumed, but I saw the irons brought to bumi him; George Brown isn't his right name but it was the name he went under at the reformatory. Q. Describe the iron you saw? A. I couldn't very well now; the way they hold it you are -not allowed to stand ajx)iund' when the matinee is going on. Q. You couldn't take a very close observation of it? A. No,^!p. Q. Can you teH when that occun-ed? A. No, sii*; I don't rtanember the e^iet date. Q. Give the particulars as far iis you can in reference tO' that? A. Wlien Bi'own was in he told me he was determined — Q. (Inten-upting.) What did you see in reference to the iron; who had it? A. Mr. Winnie had the iron. Q. Whei-e wa« he bringing it from? A. From the slide; I was on the extension turning; I might get physical treatment myseM if I went d<3wn there to look on ; I sum Mr. Winnie coming along with the iron. Q. What was the shajpe of the iron? A. I couldn't give you a full description. Q. Was there a 'hook to one end of it? A. Just a little .bit; not much, that you can shove through the baois andi turn it ajTound to get hold of a man inside. By Mr. Litchfield: i Q. How do you know George Brown was bumed out of his cell about that time? A. I was' working in the hail at that time. Q. Did you ^e him buimed out? A. They don't allow you to see anything like tliat taking place. Q. How do you know he was burned out? A. I was passing down on the extension and' I happened to look around that way and I seen Brown; I knew Brown was in the cell previona; 909 before Mr. Bnockway comes doiwn to pTmisih. thfii mem you get your orders to stay out of the way. f Q. How do you know lie was there? A. Becaupie I saw Brown therej I saw ihiim: ia his cell. Q. Was he baricaded in his oell? A. Just marked in; he fired a molasses jar otut because we had to clean the niolasses aifter and put up his bed and cupboard agaiawt the door. Q. How do you know the iron you saw was used on George Brown? A. There was nobody else going to I'eceiVe physical treatment that day, \and he wasi determined' they weren't going to get , him out, ajid' that is the only way they eau get a man if he shows any fight in him. at ail. Q. You don't exactly know that pairticuiiar iron was ujsed on George Brown? A. Oh, no; I wo'ulidn't take an oath to that effect; I saw George Brown afterward and he showed me the way he was burned from the effects of the iron. \ Q. Where wto he) burned? A. Around the neck; and hiS' hands weire burned, too, where he ignaJbbed the iron. Q. Do you remember when thils occurred? A. I can't esaotly give you the diates. Q. Give me as nearly as you can recollect; you were in the refor- matory fbur years? A. Ye,s; a little over. Q. Was it when you first went there? A. About the middle of the terra I was there. ' . Q. You went there in 1885; was it lalbbut 1887 or 1888? A. Between them ttwo years I think. Q. I thinlcyou have stated you had been in the bath-room? A. Yes, sir. ' ; Q. How many times were you in the bath-room? A. Only once. Q. About when was that; about whiaJtl date? Eighteeni hun- dred 'and eighty-six. Q. Winter or summer? A. Spring. Q. How miany blows did you receive? A. Twelve or more. .By Judge Gilbert:,. Q. Are those three letters in your handwriting? A. Yes. Ifettere marked for identification "J. M. E. — Novemlber 18, 1893." Q. Do you kDjOw of any other men being burned out of their cell ? A. rl heard a good deal about Paddy Cunningham. Q. You didn't know anything about it personally ? A. No. Q. What do you know about inmates being struck by the ofHceifei? A. Maybe a punch in the eye or kick; I saw a man named Frank Flaherty get abused terrible, kicked in the hall; I wasi bread mam at thait time. , 910 Q. By whom ? A. By Mr. Winnie and Mr. Wairen. Q. Wliat had the boy been doing ? A. I don't know what he done at that time. Q. What did you see them do ? A. They got him down and tramped on him and lacked him and abused liim terrible. Q. State what they done ? A. Punched him and kicked him. Q. ^\Tien did that occur ? ^V. Noon time, coming from the sliop; I Vi'Bs giving bread out at the time to the men. Q. What year, what month ? A. I couldn't exactly give you them dates. Q. Can you tell about when it was ? A. No, sir; I can not. Q. What marks, if any, did you see upon this fellow afterwards, indicating that he had been injured ? A. His head was all lumps and his eye was all bandaged up. ne I think IVIi'. Brockway had, had a little wooden handle to it, and came out like this, and the large one was almosrtl squiaire as far as I rememibep. . Q. The h;indle was ahmost. square? A. No; the sitiia|p; the big one; the small one wasn't, quite sO' square las the big one; there was also a handle to that. Q. How long was the lai'ge strlap? A. I couldn't give yoiu a definite idea, of that; might have beeni a foot and a half; some- thing liliie that a.s far as I can remember. Q. How\ wide do you think it was? A. One of the straps I believe was. — Q. (Interrupting.) I am sipeaking of the largest) strap? A. I think that was about six inches wide. , Q. It looked wide and long to you? A. The end of it was larger than the whole strap. Q. Do you claim the end of the sitrap was wider than the striap at the handle? A. Oh, no. Q. Did you notice the handle of the small strap? A. I think it was a little wooden handle. Q. Did you notice whether the handle had been broken or nolonel Bryan; he was the investigating officer; I asiked Colonel Bryan as I crossed the floor; Mr. Brockway stood a* his interview desk that miorning; I asked him if T i-mild speak to the superintendent before I went to the storeroom; he said no; he, wasi oocdeiPed; to' reduce me and that he should do without an interview; that was the evidence against me, which in fear of punisihment and reduc- tion he gafve against me; in order to secure the place, which I can prove by other members of the company that were there, in order to secure my poisition that I held there; I waS' on my way home at that time — Q. What was the position you held? A. Over other InmjateB; sort of a foreman; what you would call in a shop here foreman. Q. Were you a monitor? A. Yes, sir. ' , Q. In thite case the testimony of a prisoner wajs^ taken agaanisf that of a monitor? A. Yes, sir; I was tlien reduced without an interview; I wrote on' the day which is appodlnted for lower grade men for an interview, on Friday; Mr. Brockway sent me a polite little note he didln't wish to see me; through my efforts at; (School that night I went across the floor and I stepped land got in line and seen the superintendent; I aslied hiiia several questions; he said he didn't want to talk to me at all ; told me if I didn't go to my school and to my room he would punish me; I told him. I thought I was privileged to have a little word in my own defense; he denied that; he said while I was there I was umdei; the law. and the law ruled; I let that go and J wasi put in the hollowHvare sihop inl the packing department; in there l^got into a little rumipusi with one ■ of the boys through a little alcohol ; he was a messenger from the shop; he brought alcohol into the shop ajid gave it to me to pass fo amother ; I had it in my possession and! was about passing, it to another wheni one of the boys told on me; told the officer I had it and I was searched and it was found on me ; all that I could say wouldn't ^suffice to prove I wasn't guilty of stealing; I had no way in which to get the alcohol myself, because the alcohol was across the yard from the shop; only the runner was permitted to go there. Q. (Dr. Sinith.) You knew that was a violation of the rules for you to ha^e it ? A. Yes, sir; he punished me for that, and during that punishment I received — 926 Q. (Interfnipting.) Whei-e were tou punished at thait time, in the bath-irooni ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Mr. Brockway punisiied you ? A. Yes, sii"; I was taken down and told to strip. my clothes off; I did so; my face to the \Aall, which was the usual way, and he started in and he struck me ithree or four blows, and asked me where I got the alcohol; I refused to tell him; he struck me a couple mone, and I refused the second time to tell him, and he said if I didn't tell him. he would kill me before he got through with me; I told him he had better not, thari; I had folks who would look up such things asi that if anything happened to me; he went right on and punished me. Q. How many blows did he strike after thait. ? A. I guess I receiyed in the punishment thirteen blows, all together, coundng the one on the head; he stinck me across the face for looking at him, turning my face ton aid him; I said something to him in reference to i*triking me across the face, and in, a lit of anger he sitruck me with the handle of the paddle right here on the head; that finilshed it; I ne\'er was punished after thait; I left the insti- tution without being punished again ; during 1888 I was punished the second time; he sitruck me in the front here across the face with the paddle and broke i^\() of my front teeth in that way, chipped the both of the teeth so the nerves were exposed. Q. Stnick you with the leather part of the paddle ? A. Ye®, sir; the effect brolae my teeth and cut my lip; I went to iUe physician, of the institution the next day and he seen I was in pretty bad shape, and asked me where I had been, if I had been fighting; I said, " No; I have been in tlie bath-room;" no remark was passed from liim persiiiiall.\ ; he did for me all I could expect in prison, and I had my teetli extracted after he had examined me to see "h hether I was fit to go under the influence of chloroform; I had my teeth extracted hy the dentist. Q. The teeth wei-e broken off at the time ? A. Yes, sir; the bottoms of tliem; broke them diagonally across. Q. Did he use the handle or leather ? A. Leather isi what slnick; the larger paddle; he had two at that time; I have been punished before, and I knew which one. Q. Describe those paddles to ns ? A. My dt^sicription, of the small paddle would be a regTilar piece of leather belting. Q. Were those paddles both alike ? A. One was larger than the other. Q. No holes in them ? A. No, sir. Q. They were not perforated ? A. No, sir; they were soaked in water before we were punished. Q. Not soaked in salt water or vinegar ? A. No, sir. 927 Q. Simply, tte water that imn in the bath.-tub ? A. Yes, sir; before I left, -ttiere, I lefft there on the twenty-ninth of Octobeir, my time waa up on the thirtieth, and 1 was let go that afternoon, Mr., Brockway asked me if I had any special regrets of being in the institution; I- toidhim no, only wilth reference to the punisb- iment I had received, and the unjust way in which I had beeai treated by some of the officers, which he wouldn't listen to under no condition; any inmate that swore against; him his word was taken; I was on my way to parole. Q. You were a monitor ? A. 1 was at that' time. Q. Yet the word of an inmate waa taken, against that of a monitor ? A. It was, in case they had extraordinary confidence in certain inmates ; there was a class of inmates that were placed above others; termed up there asi stueliem, the bOys do. Q. WaJs not the testSlmoiny of monitoirisi taken as aigaimsib thati of inmiattes? A. Not aito^getiheip; if yota two geaitlemen' were offtcers and Mr. Stanchfleld should ajccuse me' of chewing tobacco, awd you swiore it wasn't sq, tiharti you hiaid' been in' tihe shop all day alomg;- >s4de /of thils mjatnla!ndjhe||hadlHWoimIhiaditiobajccioi, yoiursteifiemenit wKxoldM't count; that watsi with nefeirenjoe to mie; if I was acousied I was down. * , Q. It was found om you:? A. At that timie; yes^ sir. Q. Weine you confined in thie soiitarilesi? A. 'No, isiir; on thie iiast ouJ?e I was. Q. You never wene confined' in la dlark cieM 'situiatled somewiueirie in the refomDatory? A. No, sir; I know of Suiclh ai plaioe; I have derailed them out. , ' Q. Actiuailly seen them? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where were they? A. Undjer the priisom hoispital. Q. One cell or several celisi? A. ThB door isi on am angle in the hall ; you pass the elevator that leads to the hospital and you go ini amotiher dioor, and paisH the machinery that hoitete tihe efeviator; as yom ga b^ck there are four ceyisi fajcding you which, are reception ceEs. Q. You mean what are callfedi solitaries? A. Ttose aire called reception.; you pass by tihtem at 'the end and goi around the comer and tihere are the solitairiteB. By Dr. Smith: Q. You said you had a great deal of trouble of getting am inteir- viiew with the superintendent; don/t you have a pad in yorar cell and pencil on which you could write himi? A. Only on certain days; Monday thJe first grades; Wednesday the second; and Friday the third grade; I wrote tio hiim ttoee suodessive notesi; I got one answer stating he didn/t care to talk to me. 928 By Judge Gilbert: Q. WJio W9JS presenit when you say joa recedved ai blow in tlie niKKU'tih. "tiliat broke your teeth? A. Mr. Molfljugidini, Mr. Eiokard and Mr. Winnie. ' Q. What dentist pulled out your teeith? A. Dr. Kerr. Q. Oam' you g^ive the date? A. I dout know the daibe; it was ia 1888. Q. How soon after the injury? A. Probaibly ini three days; two or three dla/ys. Q. Show the sicar upon your head to Dr. Smith? Dr. Smith. — There is a smaE cicatrix on ithe left side of the verijex a,bout an inch long. ' ', Q. How was the injim' upon youTi heajd made? A. With the heel of Mr. Brockway's ishoe. Q. Where were you when it was made? A. In the bajth-room. Q. Whereabouts in 'the bath-ix)om? A. At the left-hland side of the wall asi you go into the bath-room. Q. How wei'e you rsituated? A. I wasi on the floor. Q. How did you come to be upon the floor? A. Mr. Brockway stru'ck me and 1 fell from thi^ blow. Q. Were did he strike you? A. Onl the sm.all of the back right above the hip. Q. With the paddle? A. Yes, sir. Q. You fell to tlie floor? A. Yes, ma: i Q. After you fell to the flooa- what was done)? A. I wais told to get up; I couldn't avf up; I was ratheii weak, and he miaide a kick foi- me, and his foot misised me, and am it ca,me back his heel stnick me right in the head. Q. And cut the scalp? A. Yesi, siir. Q. How large a wound was made? A. I couldn't steute that. Q. The scar is there now which you have Aown to Dr. Smith? A. Yea, isir. , By Mr. Idtchfleld: Q. How do you know it was Mr. Brockway? A. I know whiait foot struck me; my arm as it st^ruck me went over his head, and he almost went in the store-rOom dooa?, which leads into the store- room where they keep extra things. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You saw Mr. Brockway's foot, not the foot of some other man? A. Not the foot of some other man. Q. Did the cut bleed any? A. It did bleed'; Dr. Wey dressed it. 929 Q. Have yoa anything f urtiieir to eaiy in refeiPenice to that injuiry .' ^. No, sir. Q. What language, if any, did' Mr. Brdckway use at that time? \.. He called nue several thing®, a housiq otf refuge rat!, and suicih Mngs as that. * Q. 'Can you recodteot any oitlhe!r language? A. Only in referemoe :o one interview. Q. At that time? A. No, sir. Q. Witih reference to the injury to the mouth; you say that wais lone witlh the strap? A. Yeisi, sir. Q. You started a moment ago to describe the tstraps tJiat we*e ised when jmi were puniished? A. Yeisi, sir. Q. Desicirlbe the isttrap; flrist ^ihle lajnge strap? A. Atoloiut twienty inches long, I shonid jndge, outside of the handle; about three ind a half inches to four inches widte. Q. How thick? A. About three-sixtletemtlhlsi. Q. Now, the otiher paddle? A. Abont eighteen inohes long; the 3nd w^as half rounded; the other had the hjandle. , Q. Did you noftioe one of these paddles he used on yoiu the tiandle was broken? A. No, sir.' i Q. Wlhioh paddle! did h& use upon you, the small padidle or the large paddle? A. The small paddle. Q. Whiat paddle did he use upon you. when' yoiu claim your teeith were btrokeu!? A. The large one, called them the new strap. Q. Upon these oiocasions did SlJr. Brookwa.y use profane language bo you? A. No, sir. By Dr. Smith,: Q. At the tinae you hiad: your teeth) broken, did 'hie strike you from 'lieihind or in front? A. In front; I keptl my face with 'ham! with what youi would call a look of contempt, 'and he struck me again, and the edge of thei ;stirap struck' me right here. Q. Did it hit you anywhere else except your teeth? A. Eight across thfe lip. Q. Not all over youir faice'? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert : Q. Did yoW moutU bleed'? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which teeth were broken? A. The upper. Q. You say your mouth bled; which lip was cut? A. The upper lip. ' ( Q. You have now an entire set of false teeth? A. Minusi one. Q. Have you ,an upper and lower set of falsie tteth? A. No; minus one. 117 930 Q. Yoti liaven't amy natural teeth. ujKmi yauiP upper jaw? A. One right liere, Q. Ba«k tooth.? A. Yes, siir^ Q. ^ATiein did you have your teeth extracted frotm, the upper jaw »nd the plate put in? A. In the year 1888. Q. Do you know a convict namied Cleere? A. Yeis, sir. Q. Did ywui, aib any time, know of his being taken to the bath- room? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see him when he left the bath-room? A. I know he went in there and was pundshed, and he wasi t!he only mani that went in there, and there was no other man that could have beee brought out but him; punished at thait timei except he was up in the dormitory; there was a man brought out as we weiie taken around the south ft-ing; when he was brought owt that man went to a cell. Q. Did you clean the bath-room after Oleere was puniislhed;? A. Yes, sir. i Q. What, if anything, did you ntottdoe m.' obsea've? A. 1 sluouid say from tht^ loolis of the floor there was about a gill of blood, about two foot from the edge of the wall where the feet are gener- ally stood. Q. AMitre the inmates were usually placed when they were paddled ? A. Yes, sir. Q. (Jr where they were strung up ? A. That is the same place, except you laid on the slab. Q. This blood at one particular point or a,t different points in the room ? A. ^Mtliin a space of about three feet square. Q. Did yon see Oh-cre after he come out ? A. That night on my way to school he w as in the cell where that man was put that came from the bath-room. Q. What did yon see in reference to his having bruises or marks ui>on him, indicating he had received sevei'e punigihment ? A. His face was blackened around the eyeis, also the side of the face was swelled very much, the right hanid side. Q. Anything else ? A. No, sir. By Dr. Smith: Q. Have you any pain in your head ? A. I have at times severe headache, as if a knife was penetrating. Q. AMien you press on it is it tpnder ? A. Not just now; it has been previous to my leaving the institution. Q. What is your present (-mployment ? A. I am a mason; tbat is my trade; I learned in the reformatory. Q. Did you have any trade or occuj^ation before you went to the reformatory ? A. I had been learning clothing cutting. 931 Q. Did you give your true name when you entered the reforma- tory ? A. Yesi sir. \ Q. Were you ever convicted of any offense before you were senit to the reformatory ? A. No, sir. ' Q. Were you ever in prison ? A. No, sir. Q. Or arrested before you went to the refoirmatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Before you were arrested for the offense of which you were convicted ? A. I wasn't convicted; 1 had a hearing and was sent to the reformjatory at the request of a firiendi of oiu-ra whoi was captain of the cohrt squad in general sessions. Q. Were you arrested for any other offense than that before that ? A. Yes, sir. ^ \ Q. What offense ? A. Petit larceny. Q. Were you convicted of it ? A. No, sir. , Q. Were' you tried ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And acquitted ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever been convicted of any offense since you left the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you been arrested since you left the reformatory ? A. No, sir. ■Q. Has your record been good since you left the reformarto'ry ? A. Yes, sir. '■ ' Q. "V\'Tiat is your record in the reformatory so far As obeying the rules and regulations ? A. Very bad. Q. In any particular respect in relation to any particular line of conduct ? A. Small infractions of little rules, that I didn't siee fit to obey ; stubbornn.ess more than anything else. Q. Do you mean to my while you were in the reformatory you were really stubborn', and you didn't mean to obey the rules ? A. In some cases; yes, sir. Q. Was quite inclined to talk ? A. Yes, sir; whenever I wanted to talk nobody could stop me; my fsCther says it don't run. in our blood to be dictated to. Q. In short, you were rather inclined to rebel againist the rules and regulations ? A. That which I thought was more than should be under the laws of this State. Q. Did you sitay there unta the full limit of the macsimum pun- ishment or time.? A. Every hour. Q. You didn't ha^e the benefit of any good behavior afc ■all ? A. I had the first grade at- one time; I had the privileges of the first grade for two or three months. Q. You weren't regarded by either the superintendent or by the board of management as a reformed boy? A. I never appeared before the bpaird pf oroanagers. 932 Q. You stayed the full extent of tJie tim.e? A. Yes', sir. Q. For which, you might have been sent to prisom for the offense? A. Yes, sir. Q. Since you came out of prison has your conduct been proper, been lawful? A. Spotless ' Q. So that you feel you have in fact been reformed? A. Not by the authorities of the refomijatory. Q. ^Tien you committed the offen^ for which you were sent to the reformatory, wei'e you undeT the influenjce of liquor? A. No, sir. ' , Q. Do you evei- get intoxicated? A. No, sir; never touch a drop of liquor. i Q. T\Tiat business is yoiir fatber? A. Clothing cutter. Q. Is your mothei* linng? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wliat were you sent to the reforanatory for? A. Graiid larceny, second degree. Q. TVTuat was it you l<(ok? A. I prefer not to say. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. No, sir. Q. Did you have a ti-ial? A. No, sir. Q. You wore 7-econim ended? A. My mouth wasn't opened when I went befid yon plead guilty ? A. Y*, isir. Q What was your age at tke time you were sienit? A. Seventeen. Q. When did you leave the reformatory ? A. I couldn't exactly say; it was 1887 or 1888. Q. Were you transferred to one of the prisons ? A. No, sir. Q. You were paroled ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Wliile in the reformatory were you punished ? A. No, sir; I had no punishmout whatever when I was kept there; I was In the flrlsit grade two years and a half; that is the highest grade in the place; I went there, according to the lecture Ma". Brockway gave me, if I was good I should get out in a year; I tried to pass and studied hard and got all my nines; I went before the board and was held over for education; I asked Mr. Erockway why he held me when my father had work for me; he said it would be all right the Bext board, and patted me on the shoulder; I lost a nine one month, and got an eight; he put me before that board; went befoire the board again, and I got held over for educationj I went up tO' him again and sii^-k, "IVIr. Brockway, why hold ma over; I would like to get home; I have got my nine and every- thing;" I was getting disgusted; he says to me, " If you were my son I would put you thorough A class," and he did put me through A class befoire he let me out of that place; I wiasu't hiis eoin, and' he had no light to treat me as such; he hit me across the table; I Sfjys, " Mr. Brockway, I ain't your son," and he pulled out and hit me; Winnie stood outside of the raU and he grabbed me and done the rest. Q. You say Brockway hit you; Whence did he Strike you ? A. On the guardroom tloor, across a small table; he struck me in the face. Q. What with ? A. With his hand. Q. Hand or flst ? A. Fist. Q. Leave any mark or do you any particular injury ? A. He done particular injury to my body; I -have never been healthy isince I left that place. Q. Did he knock you over ? A. He knocked me over. Q. Did Mr. Brockway, when he struck you vdth his fist in the face, knock yon down. ? A. I was sitting in a chair and I stumh bled over. ,' Q. Did you fall upon the tloor ? A. Yes, su- Q. After that what occurred ? A. After that Mr. Winnie took hold of me outside; I ran'around the table and he catched me and took hold of me and give me a good clubbing; he used his fist on me, catched me by the throat and punched me. 936 Q. Stnick you on what part of youir body ? A. Face and all over tiie body, and jabbed me in the ribs. Q. Leave any wounds upon you ? A. I had majrlta the next morning on my body. Q. Any mark upon your face the next morning ? A. No, sir. Q. None of the blows were sufficiently severe ? A. They were severe enough to injure my health. Q. None of them so seivere as to leave marks upon your face ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever punMied in any other way ? A. No, siLnj only ouce, I was locked up. • Q. At the time you refer to have you stated all that you siaid to Mr. Brockway or to Mr. Winnie ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you give them any other reason for striking you than what you have stated ? A. No, sir. i Q. You Idealize you are under oath ? A. I know I am undieu oath. i Q. You say when you iieplied toi Mr. Bnookway after hlis sitarting to you th'at if you were his own son thiatt he vrould put yoiu throiuigh A class, and you replied to hlLm, " Mr. Bnockiwiay I am niot your son;" hfe (then, withourti saying amottheir woiid, toi yoiu or wittiloiu't you isajing another word to Mm, sitruck you squarely in the faice with his fist and knocked you off your sieatl? A. Yesi, sir. Q. How did it happen Winnie chased you airoumd there; what were you 6>t&a^^ that caused him to follow you? A. BCe thoraghit I was going to turn ota Mr. BrockVay. Q. What move did you miake? A. I done nothing; I got up, when I fell, I got up audi raiu back thaiti way aaid ram aix>und the desk aind Wiunie oaime iu and caitched mie. Q. When you stairted to rua ajround tihe diesik dSdn't you sttaut to rum toward BTOckway? A. No, sin; I knew better. Q. Or run toward his side? A. No, sir; I tried to get' out of the dioor. i i i Q. Did Winnie knock you down? A. Yesi, sir; h.e did. Q. How many timesi? A. Onice. Q. Who saw this affray? A. I think I was the last interviewed that night Q. Who was presenit? A. There was a clerk thjeine. Q. Do you remembeir his mmB? A, No; Mr. Hoppe might teU you his name; a small Jew tlhere. Q. Were you punisihed art; amy otheiri time wMle you were in the reformatory? A. No, air. ' ^ Q. Did you see otheir inmiartesi severely punMiied)? A. Yes, sfilr; I seen plewby of them. 1 ; 937 Q. Can you mention any one in paartSlciuiar? A. I was runnei? of the foundry at tJie itime; Smitih. and WiUiiaimisi Juad the quairrel at the foiuBiday; they wetre ttakem oveir by Mr. Winnie and Mr. McLaughlin, the man ittot hjasi charge of the store-rooim and in the hall I saw Mr. Wikmie and Mr. MoLaughlini aaid the assisttlanit hail keeper get hold of "WiUiamisl and. giye it tio him^ amd then thley were itaken iu tihe baith-toom. , Q. What do you mean by tharti? A. PuncMmig him; they had him shackled thart; way. , : Q. Whait ha;d Williams been doing? A. He had isome quarxel in the foundry with Mn McKennia. Q. Was he an offtcer? A. Yeis, sit. i Q. Williamisi and he had some troubfe? A. Yea, isir. Q. Don't you know at thEut time Smith and Williams had aisisauited an officer? A. Yes^ sliin; I knew it; I know McKemna hilt him firist a kick in the ohin under -the srtJand; tha;t is what staiPted it. / Q. Did you isee it? A. Yesi, mc. Q. Did you see the commencement of the controTerisy? A. Yeia, sir; he was about that wiay to McKenna. Q. This offtcer kicked rtliie inmaitei in the manner you hare sitated? A. Yes, sir. ' , Q. Thiait stiarted th'e controversy? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Wha)t punishment wais inflicted upon the two inmates because of thait laffray? A. According to whiaitl I could hear inside they got five years apiece; Judge Dexter was teaicher there and he was the man thait seniteuced them. Q. What pomishment, if any, wiais inflictted in the refoiimatoay upon thesie two inmiartles-foir their pairticipation tu thait affray? A. They were paddled. ' \ Q. Did you see them paddled? A. I seen one of them paddled. Q. Weite there any paxtiiculair nmrks made upon them or bruiseBi made upon them lart; that time? A. Wlieu any one gets paddled ithaJt way you aire kept back in ithe hall ; »you aren't allowed to get neiaiP it within a hundred feet. Q. While these men were on their way to the biaith-room whait, if anything, ooeurned in reference to their being beaten? A. Northing as I know of; I saw them coming out of the bajth- room; I seen them getting carried out by two inmaites; having inmalte instructors, favorable or unfavorable ? A. They could help the ofSoers. Q. Did you hear any complaints about the inmate instructors ? A. No, sir; only some; you get hard priisoners as well as officere; they think they are all and all, and they are juist as hard as an offlcer, and harder. Q. As a rule aire inmate monitors severe on inmates ? A. Some of them are. Q. Not as a rule ? A. Not as a rule, they are not. Q. GreneraUy tiiey are fair, and make proper reports ? A. Yes. Q. Do you regard it as proper ? A. No, sir; I do not. Q. Why not ? A. If I have a grudge against a man, I don?t like him, I take a dislike, all I have got to do is to rejwrt him; he goes up and says, " Mr. Brockway, I didn't do this;" my word is taken'; I am monitor; I have authority; what right have I by law to have that authority ? Q. Wouldn't an outside citizen be likely to do the same thing or even Avorse ; don't the inmates have sympathy for each other ? A. Some of them do. Q. As a rale ? A. As a nile they do. Q. Did YOU hear them talli about what they were doing in the way of reports ? A. I have had a man come up to me, "Here, Decker, I am going to take a nine off of you this month if you don't look out;" T had one repoirt and that wais^ because I talked. Q. That was a simple admonition ? A. ,Yes. Q. You had violated a rale ? A. Yes, sir; I violated one rule of the aiiny. , Q. It was a proper thing for him to admonish you ? A. Yes, sir; I had a report for that. Q. Nothing against the inmate monitor ? A. No, sir; that ain't. ' ' By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Now about the citizen inatructor; would not a citizen icstructor be as far down on the boys as an inmate officer' ? A. Certainly he can be as hard ; I can be good-natured and I can be hard; if I have the authority I can use it, can't I ? Q. Don't your experience show you the citizen instructor would be as hard on the inmates as an inmate instructor ? A. A citizen instructor, he might take a dislike to me; he gets ray card to mark; I might be a good bricklayer and might be a bad one; if he marks me beloiw seventy-five per cent I get a mark. Q. I understand that; didi you not! find thie citizen instructor was just a0 bad to mark you as am inmarfje instructoir? A. Yes, sir; the same thing. 941 Q. No differenice between tSieiii? A. No; one wais giTenl as mucih. authority as the other. ; By Dr. Smith:, Q. Why do' you object to imna'te momitoins? A. Because I don't think' there is amy law for a priisoner being over a prisoner to keep him there; that is why I object; if me and you are in prison, you have a gruidge agaiast me, yora have the authority; let the officeiiis do ihsbl Q. You^ say the same would happen with a citizen monitoi'? A. The same would happen ; that is his duty to do right and report yon every time he catches you talking. , Q. You object to the system of monitor, anyway? A. Yes, sir; I don't think it is right; when a man is getting paid for it he don't report a man to i!:et a little credit foir himself. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Were you in the New York House of Refuge before you went to the refotrmatory? A. Yes, sir. , / Q. For ettealing? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Have you seen any of the gentlenten of the New York Woi'ld before you came here? A. No, sir; I was sunmuoned this morn- ing; I didn't come here for any credit of him or any credit for anybody else. Q. Have you been promised any consideration foK coming here? A. No, sir. ' .Q. You have been in the New York World office? A. Yes, sir; I was sent for. Q. Did youi receive any consideration, or do you expect any consideration? A. No, sir; I 'didin^t ask for ^uny. , Oharles E. Bnown, being duly sworni, testiLfled: Examined! by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. Tjiird avenue, between Twenty- eighth and Twenty-ninth. ' Q. W^ere you ever in the Elmiira reformatOiy, comflned theire? A. Y^, sir. Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York city. Q. When? A. March 14, 1891. i Q. What for? A. For' stealing from a private residence on, Madison aveniue. Q. Did you pleadl guilty? A. Yes, sir. 942 Q. While in the refoiriniatory did you know aini inimate by the name of Murray? A. Yes, sir. Q. TXTiat, if anytliing, do you know in reiferemoe to his being severely punisihetl? A. I had an interview wi^ him. Q. Not what AXMi heard' him say, wihait did; yom see? A. I seen him beat aci-oss here; I suaa- the marks. Q. Mai'ks acinoss his ba«k? A. Yes, sir; the lowen part of bis spine. I Q. Across the lower part of the back? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Desniibe the miarks you isaw? A. Red amd blue. Q. Sldn broken? A. It was broken; the skin was a little peeled. Q. Did you see where the blood hiadl, flowed? A. I seen some aongealed blood, kind of clotted blood on the leftl side of his back. Q. Did you see Mm going to the bath-i-oom? A. No, sir; I did not. , Q. Did you see him when he was coming from the bath-room? A. I seen him when he came back. Q. Did you see liis back upon more than one occasdoni? A. Only on this one ocxjasion. (i- M'eie you ever taken to the bath-room, and punished your- self? A. Xo, sir. I Q. You were discharged mthiu a few months after you, enitered tkf reformatoi";)' ? A. I served my full maximum term of two and a half. Q. Did you see other inmates that were taken' from the bath- room, «as there anything upon them indioatrnig they had been eevei'ely punished? A. Yew, sir. (i. Can yon mention any of them? A. One was Carr, 3838; he shoii\ed nie his back in the closet of the book bindery; he had several deep marlfs across here. ii. Oleaa' across his back? A. Yes, sir. (j. I)e«-ribe them? A. Probably one-eighth of an inch deep across his back, like ridges. Q. Horn- wide? A. Probably alboiit my finger. Q. ^A'hat was the color of the flesh? A. TIhe flfesih was blue. Q. Skin broken? A. "^'es, sir. Q. An indication of blood having flowed from the wounds? A. ^'es, sir. j , Q. What indications did yon see? A. The same as little Murray, clotted bloiod. il Any upon his shirt? A. Yes, sir; his shirt was a little stained. Q. WTiere was this clotted blood that you saw? A. On his shirt. Q. Any upon his person? A. Yes, sir; upon the flesh. Q. Any other marks upon him indicating he had been severely punished? A. No, sir. 94a Q. Recollect any otiher inmate tlhat haid the appeajrance of hav- ing been severely pnnislied? A. Those are the only Wo I know of. Q. Did yom ever see ani officer strike the inmates with his fist or anything otf tlliat kind!? A. No, sir. Q. In what department were yon employed? A. I was in the book bindery. Q. Was thart; the department Muway worked in? A. He worked in the printing office. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did you see his back? A. Yes, sir. Q. What comidition was it ini? A. Kind of blue and biaiok. Q. .Across what you ciall the small of the back? A. Yes, sir. Q. No blood? A. Yes, sir; there was congealed blood on his back. ; j Q. Did you act as lai momitoir wihUe yotu were iin the opefotnnaJtory, or act in any other capacity as an officer? A. I acted as their sergeant, and doing key duty on the gallery; gallery man. Q. While acting as monitor or sergeamt did you have am inten- view with Mmray? A. I spoke to him; y^, sir. Q. Did he, at that time, show you the woumds upon his back? A. Yes, sir. , , Q. Was there any conversation between jon with reference to the maainer or how he came to be woiunded? A. Yes, sir. Q. What w^ere you con-victed for? A. I took a gentleman's over- coat. (2. Whereabouts? A. Madison avenue, near Thirtieth street. Q. Private house? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whati time of the day was it, or night? A. I think it was in the afternoon. ' ., Q. What part of the house did yon get it? A. Parlor flLootr. Q. How did you get in there? A. I had a letter to see him; he was a doctor. .^ ' Q. Can you give the num.ber' of that 'house? A. I cotild not. Q. You claim' you had a lietter to the oacupan/t of the house; a doetop? A. Yes, sir. Q. You called to the door; did anyone aidmit you into the house? A. Yes, (Sir; the servant girl. Q. A servant you- were aicquaitntted with? A. Not, isir. Q. Did you ask this waJiter to siee the doctor? A. Yes, sin; I handed her a letter and she took it up ia the doctor; while she wais up there I took the ooait. Q. And slipped out? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Who wiais the letter from'? A. From myself. Q. Hi was pmpaired for the ocoaisiom? A.^ YeS, sir. 944 Q. You weren't sick? A. Noi, sir. Q. Whlat did you prepoiPe thie leitrber for? A. I wamited to bave aa interviieiw witii h i m to see if lie wouldn't be kind! emoug^h: to give me emjploymeiit. Q. Why didn't you wait to liave the interview? A. I was undier the influence of liquor ait the ttme. Q. K you were undeip the influence of liquor to that ecstent that you didn't know what you were about, how coiild you plam to have an interview with him? A. I wasn't whartj you miajy say stupidly drunk. Q. You intended to geit the coat or soniethiag elsie and you got it and was punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you evei- airresited for any other offenale? A. I was aorested for being drunk. Q. Foil any ciime? A. No, sir. Q. Before you were arrested for the offense that cianisied you to be sent to ELmk-a? A. I was arrested onoe ini Jensiey. Q. For crime? A. Yes, isir. Q. Were you imprisoned? A. Yes, sij-; in the penitentiajpf- Q. For how long a time? A. One year. Q. Is (hat the only time you had been in pTaddling I got twelve cracka , Q. You got only one blow ovvr the head during aJl 'tihe tilne you were there? A. One blow of the paddle and one blow of the fist. Q. Who struck you with the fist: ? A. Mr. Brockway. Q. Whlere were you when he struck you witih hisi fieit ? A. Standing up. Q. Where did he strike you ? A. In the eya Q. Which hand did he strike you with ? A. I believe it was the left; that is the only hand he had free; he had t&e paddle in his right hand. ; Q. Have you stated all you desire to state in reference to the I>!misliments you received ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were there five years ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What portion of that time were you in the lowest grade, the red grade ? A. Six montJis the first time. Q. How long were' you in the upper or first, grade ? A. T couldn't state; I was in it three times, but I couldn't state how: long I was in it each time. 947 Q. How many times were you in the red grade ? A. Five times in the black grade. Q. How majiy times were you in the red grade; were you there more than once ? A. Three times; one time I was reduced Djy mistake; I was only in it proper twice. Q. Did you, at any time, act as a monitor or as an officen? A. I was instructor in the wood-turning class. Q. For how long a time ? A. About six months. Q. Were you ever shut up in the solitary ? A. I worked in solitary confinement. Q. Were you imprisoned in, the solitary cell ? A. No, sir; I worked in a little booth paj-titioned off from the rest. Q. You don't claim you were put into a cell and kept there in order to punish you for any violation of the rules of the reforms atory ? A. It must have been some punisihment or I would noit have been poit in a solitary place by myselt; I wag in a little booth about the size of an election booth; if I didn't do my task I was paddled jusit the same. i Q. Where was this place you were shut up in ? A. In the brush shop. Q. You never were chained in a cell ? A. No. Q. Do you know of any other inmate that received severe pun- ishment while you were there ? A. I know a man named Mead; oD.e Wednesday aftefmoon we were going out to the armory drill and a fellow sg.ys Mead was chalked in; Mead came out about half an hour later, and his face all around here, both siides of his face, was all scarred up, marked up, and the skin was all broken, and he was beside me in the ranks and I asked him how he got it. Q. What did.ypuLSee? A. 1 saw his face all cut up. Q. Did you see him when he came out of the bath-room ? A, Yes, sir; I saw another young man, named Lynch, a little boy, 16, come out with his face all cut. Q. Blood flowing ? A. The blood wasn't flowing just as if there was an abrasion of the skin; the blood didn't flow, and yet you could see the raw flesh underneath; I didn't see no blood. Q. Any others ? A. I saw several men come out with blaoK eyes; I can't recollect their names; again I saw men coming out with their faces all red, where thej got blows acrosis the face with tihe paddle, and yet not enough to blacken, them; it would take two or three blows of the paddle before your face would get black; so I judge from that he got only one or two blows across the face with the paddle. Q. Do you call to mind any others ? A. I saw a young mam named Smith come out with a black eye. 948 Q. You didn't give the name of the other party ? A. I saw! :v.i:H'), Smith, from Greenpoint, Brooklyn; I saw him come out with a black eye; that was in the same class of drawing wiilli me. Q. Can you name any others ? A. I know different men that came out, but I never saw any bruises on them. Q. About Avhat hour in the day did this paddling occUiP ? A. If the flnst-grade men got through early enough it started a quarter to 1 ; if not, half-past 1; as soon as all the inmates were out the superintendent went down in the bath-roiom and gi)l the keex)ers, Winnie and McNish, or Sample, or HaJpin, they would get detailed to take out the inmates. Q. About how many were paddled per day on am average, if you know? A. I could see them coming ont of the building, because I worked right in front of the building. ' Q. I won^t press that; what, if anything, have you ever seen in reference to ilr. Brockway or the other offioens striking the inmates with the fist or kicking them? A. I seem Winnale take a man and strike him, and then when the mam was tluming around and trying to gain his balance, I have si'en himj run up and kick him and punch him, in the gymnasium one night we werel down foT' physical geography with Professor Monies. Q. Could you see any marks upon the face, titie effects of the blow afterwards? A. No, sir; I didn't see hiim, for about ai week afterwardsi; then lie h;id a big ankle on his foot like a large hand- cuff; I guess it weighed about thirty pounds. Q. This fetter \ oni! I'efer to is a chain and a piece of iron fastened to the inmate"^ lijut):? A. A gi-eut, big piece of iryjn; no chain about it; it was riveted on. Q. What passed aiwind the inmate's leg; it was; ani iron' that was fastened around the inmate's ankle, riveted there? A. Yes, siir. Q. About how he;i\y? A. About thirty poundR Q. Mow long a time did he wear it? A. I giiess about a moportnnity to the board of managers tO' croisis^ examine. ]Mr. Stanchfleld. — I remember the time when it was up here we were inquiring as to who might be present. I should suppose Mr. Litchfield would remember that, and the question was whether Mr. Hoppe could be here or Dr. Wey, the president of the board of managers. If you gentlemen have made up vour minds no one is to stay here — Mr. Litchfield (interrupting). — This is a peculiar case. These men are under the absolute power and authority of the board of managers and ofiicers and they might be intimidated by the presi- ence of anyone of thenr, and we are not so liable to obtain, a full and free expression of the state of affairs from these witnesses 953 if any of those officers are present. It is different from an ordi- nary case. Mr. Eathbone. — Mr. Hoppe is not an officer. Would you allow him /to be present ? Mr. Litchfield. — He is practically an officer; he is in the employ- ment. The same ruling would apply to him. He has judicial power over these men, as the testimony shows, if the testimony is correct; he has presided or assisted in court-martial. Mr. Rathbone. — Is the prosecution to be present, Mr. White ? Mr. Litchfield. — The judge, of course, has to be present. Judge Gilbert. — I hope I will not be regarded as prosecuting. Mr. White. — I don't think my presence will intimidate any of the witnesses. Mr. Litchfield. — It is a question of intimidation more than, any- thing else, possible or suppositious; it is to get a perfectly tre^ and frank hearing from these men. We do not wish to do an injiistice to anyone. We will give you eveiy possible oppoirtunjLty to go over their record and croesi-examine them, recall them and cross-examn,e tihem. ^ \ Mr. Fanning. — With the understanding that the reformatory i shall hereafter have the fullest opportunity to recall any of the witnesses ; would not that satisfy Mr. Stanc'hfleld's objection, with the written evidence before them ? Mr. Stanchfield. — I suppose this might be done after a witness has been sworn and given his evidence. Mr. Ruso could go out and read that over, if there is anything we want to bring up at that time we could do it. There certainly can't be any objection to that. Mr. Litchfield. — No objection to that. Mr. Stanchfield. — It taJies time; that I understand. There is a good deal of consequence to it. We want both sides, as far as we can, presented at the same time; there are many reasons that might be stated why that should be so. Mr. Litchfield. — It is also understood the same arrangement applies here that applied in all the State prisonsi we visited, that none of these men sthaU be punished in any way or given physical treatment. Mr. Stanchfield.^ We passed as full a resolution as we could on that subject. , Mr. Litchfield.— I thought it best to recall that, as the affair seems to be in doubt. Mr. Stanchfield. — They intended to cover that very fully. Mr. Litchfield, — The committee understand the witnesses now to be called before us consist of men selected from among the|se letter writers by the prosecution. They have gone over the letters 120 954 and picked out certain men. They are entirely unaware of their identify, these men' being knoiwn to us by niumbers and not by their conseoutive nrambers, and; the numbers have not been fto- nished the proseoutioe and will only be given out by the secre- tary m fast as a par'ticular man is called for. Have you said all you wish to say on that subject? Mr. Stanchfleld. — There isn'b probably anytlhing more I could say. If you gentlemen have made up yotur minds abontl it I am made up of that iSoirt of material that I don't care to spend an hour dis- cussing a proposition thait has already been disposed of. If you think it is to "the interest of the investigation not t|o have a repre- sentative of the institution here that' is the end of iti, but I didii't want it understood that we were precluded by the reoordbi from raising it. You don't grasp really what I am driving at. In a civil litigation I undenstand you have th^ arbitrary power or unquestJioned powen to conduct any sort of ami inquisition or sitar chamber proceeding that you please. Your power to do it I don't stand here questioning; the poliut in the solitary? A. No; I wasn't down in the solitary; I was in the reception-room; the four rooms there. Q. Chains put upon you ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you any particular complaint to make with reference to the punishments ihat you have been subjected to ? A. No more than what I wrote; I informed you of the fact I was reduced and a few other things I seen whUe I was hallmam Q. I am speaking now in reference to yourself; I want to know if you claim that you, yourself, have been subjected to any severe, what you claim to be severe, punishment, further than what you have already stated ? A. ^o. Q. What, if anything, have you seen with reference to others being severely punished ? A. To explain it, myself and Hallman William G-reeSe, who held position as hallman on the first block next to the guard-room floor, we used to stay up on the top gallery, to tell you the truth, and get down on our breast and look over the gallery while the paddling was going on, and I have seen them come out of the bathroom after being paddled, different, oflsoer^ have fetched them out, wheme they have beelQ pulled out, dragged out, and fairly kicked ou)t, and where thene hare been coats over their heads and sheiets over tlheilr heads, and chuck themi im ttaere along in 621, 622, along on the other side, back; and I have seen them taking them down to the solitary after they have been paddled, and where they couldn't walk an officer on each side carried them 958 down there; McMsh., a citizen, that used to occupy the position of head hallman hei-e, he has instructed me to go along and clean, drops of blood up going tvom. the baJth-room to the solitary, and I had to do it. Q. Upon more than one occasion ? A. Yes, sir. Q. About how many times did you clean up the blood in the hall or passageway ? A. J have cleaned up blood, I would positively say three times, and I cleaned up something else besides that, wlif.Te men had their pants down and \inable to hold — (}. Unable to govern their bowels ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Can you name the prisoners that werti punished at that time ? A. Yes, sir; there was Vsm. AM^jTie. Q. Do you recollect his consecutive number ? A. No, sir; I can't tell you that; between 3750 and oSOO; I know he came up l'<'rc at the time T did. Q. What did you se<^ in Reference to Vani Alst^Tiie as he wa4 t(-ing taken from the bath-room ? A. His eye was all black, swollen up, and he had a rut in the side of hisi head. Q. Describe it ? A. It was cut very bad there. <^ le, \<)ii mean ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it bleeding ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What further did you see in reference to Van Alstyne ? A. No more than whal thc\ look him down iind he couldn't walk, and ihey carried hiiu aloiij;, dragged him along. Q. Who canned him ? A. Priiicipiil Keeper Winnie was one; I wouldn't say positive, but 1 l3iink it was McNish on; tfae' othieir side of liim; it is so long ago that I have for'gotiten. (}. Is that all you can say particularly with reference to. Van .Vlstyme ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you know where he iis now ? A. He was trajnsfemed away from here, I understand; transferred to Aubuipi. Q. Tan you stat/e the name of any other prisioner that you saw that you claim to be severely punished ? A. Yes, siiir; 5248, White, came out in the shop for not doing his task, and his back- side was all cut open and black and blue, and all up around his back down here; he showed it to me; 5413, Keynolds, T think his name is, 54 something, I saw his backside afte:r he had been paddled. Q. Describe more particularly the condition of Rej'nolds' back ? A. It was all cut kind of, and drawed up in and around. Q. Ridges across his back ? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^^T:!.at was the color ? A. Black and blue. 959 Q. Skin brokeoa ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Blood ruEining ? A. Yes; you could isee it kind of dried. Q. How far up tlie back ? A. Across tlie kidneys. Q. Sh.ow Dr. Smitii how tar up on, his back you saw those cuts and braises. (Th.e witness indicates on Ms person.) A. Bigihjt across about tbere. Q. Put your finger on the upper mark ? A. I don't know just how, but along there. Q. Name any other you saw bruises upon him ? A. .Thirty-one hundred and two, McAndrew®. Q. What did you observe with reference to him ? A. He shoAved me ooae time, he came out in the shop; he had a black eye and he had been paddled very severely; he was crying; I asked him what was the matter. Mr. Stanichfleld. — We object to what he stated, Q. Did you see him when he was taken to the bath-room ? A. No, isir. Q. Did you see him when he came from the bath-room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How soon after you saw him coming from the bath-room T/as it that you saw him cryimg and saw him with a black eye and saw his back ? A. Three or five minutes. Q. State what he said ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is over our objection. A. He told me that he had been paddled awful hard, and he says, " I am so sore now I can hardly turn around," and along at night he stopped work and said, " I can't bend over, I am 'SO sore." Q. Did you s'ee his bade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Describe it ? A. Up aax)und there-, as I showed the doctor, just about the same place, and that was all Idnd of drawed up in round ridgas, and looked as if it was clotted blood around there where tbe skin had been drawed up, around. Q. Had it been bleeding? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Blood upon his ishirb? A. I didn't notice that. Q. Clothes? A. I diidn't notice thiat. Q. Can yoiu name any other tlhajt yom saw who claimed to hia;ve beeni isievariely punished? A. Thirty-nine hundred and forty-five, MJalomey. Q. What did yon observe in reference to him? A. He showed me soars that bad been on him', in the room; I used' to room with htm; he shiowed me scars where he had been pad^dled. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I ask to strike that out as hearsay. Judge Gilbert.— Yes; strike it out Q. Wha* do yon know in reference to Maloney having been taken to the bathroom? A. I wasi lajyinig in sick in' 621, and I 960 saw him taken from 604; taken down in thie bathruoom, and then taken back again as th'^ were aanrying him biaok. Q. Who took him back? A. I couldn't say positive. Q. You say, " Take hinm back;' lead him or ciaray Mm? A. Garryiaig him on his ami; leaaaing n him? A. He had 'been cuit aoTOss the eye like that, and his eye wias all swollen up. ■ Q. Did you know he had been taken to the bath-ti-oom? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Did YOU see him taken there? A. Yes, sir. Q. See him when he came from the bath-room? A. Yes, sir. Q. How soon after he came from the bath^xjom did ypu see the cut over his eye? \. Ten minutes. Q. How long was the cut? A. About an inch long. Q. Bleeding? A. Yes, sir. Q. Over which eye? A. Over- the left eye. Q. \^Tien was tiiat? A. That was in 1891. Q. What officei-s were with him when he oamie fiv>m the bath- room? A. I am sure I couldtfti teU that; I have forgotten; I wouldn't want to say pcmtiTely. 961 Q. Diki yoiu see Ms bajck? A. Yes, siin. Q. Wliat was tiie oondiitioiiii of lus badk? A. Sometihiifflg eimilar to whait I desicTiibied the otiheiris; birui'Sied; there weire no ridiges xm theirei, biut it was bruised. Q. Wiais it bleeding? A. ISToi; it wajs all red. Q. Do you recollect any other instanoe wliere am inmate ipecedved severe punishment? A. No. Q. Oomie back to theise three oocaaioiasi when you cleaned blood from the floor on the hiaJi; you have named one, cam you niaime the other two? A. No; I couldn't; if I had time to think of it I might. ' Q. You spoke of one inmate being taken from the bath-iroom wl'th a fiJieet over him? A. Yea, gdir. Q. Do you recollect whk> that wias? A. Four tliousandl and forty Glare. Q. Wien did that ooour? A. It was April, 1891. Q. Did you see him after he had been inj the bath-room, did you see his face and person? A. Yes, sir. Q. What bruises, if any, did you observe upom his face? A. His face was all iswoUen up around his dheiek. Q. On whicih side? A. I couddra't say; I looked up on the galieiry and saw it. Q. Was his cheek cut? A. Yes; he had been isbruok with the strap. Q. Was Ms skin broken? A. Yes, sir. Q. Bleeding? A. 'No; it) wasn't Meeding, it was kind of stopped!; he had his ihanidkeiPohief up to it like that; he islhowed' it to me. Q. When you saw him with a sheet over him who was with him? A. I couldln't say whoi was with hilm; there have been so many ofScers iui that business. Q. Was he walkiug or were they oarryiug him? A. Oairrying him. Q. How many were oarryiug him? A. Two. Q. How? A. Had holft of each arm and oaiitiyinig him between them'. ' Q. He staudlnig on his feet? A. Nc; he was leaning over on them; they were partly dragging him alomg. Q. Carried him from the bath-i-oom to whjat place? A. His cell; I cotuldn't name the number of the cell, but it was riight ba,ck of 620 and 621.- Q. How soon after he was taken toi his oeU dM you see him? A. About fifteen minutes oir tta minutes. Q. You were then acing as hyimaai? A. No, sir; I was ini the hall then; in sick. Q. Did you me his back? A. No, sir; I didn't see his back. 121 962 Q. The only braises jooi saw upon him were upon his face? A. Yes, fflT. , Q. HaA'e you described them all? A. Yes^ sir; hils eye was out; I Avill sar positive; I liiiow he did; one' side of his nose wasi cut, but wliaitl side I couldn't say. Q. Bleedimg, was that? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was he the one that had the sheet oiver his head? A. Yes, sir. Q. If he had the sheet over his head how ooiuld yoiu see? A. He was in the cell; he had been takeni to the bath-rooau; they took Mm from the' bath-i'oom; they took the siieeb off his head. Q. You siaw bim in his own cell? A. Not in hisi own oell, but the cell tlhey generally pl'aoe them in. ' Q. Did you afterwards dean the blood from the hall floor in that case? A. No, sia"; ini Van Alstyne's case I saw the blood and cleaned it up, and the othei' oases I can't decide the bloiodi I did clean up. I (^ fan you desci-ibe more definitely 'than youi hare the particu- lars relating to those other two oasesi? A. Noi; I couldn't; I wouldn't be sure about it. Q. fail you state anything with reference to Avhaitl bniises or outs you .saw upon him? A. He had his head cut open on top. Q. Did you see 'him when' he was taken toi the 'bath-i'oom? A. Yes, sir. Q. How soon was itj after h<^ came fi'om, tihf' bath-room that you saw hils head cut open on the top? A. Two days; he came out tlie morniiif^ of the third day to Avork. Q. You saw him in the shop? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whi\t shop? A. HoUowware shop. (>. WTiat was his name? A. O'Brady or Brady; I can't give his numbei". Q. Were you wor-ldng in that shop at that time? A. Yes, sir. Q. AAliat department do you work notw? A. Hoilowware shop. Q. ('an \ou give any particular.-* in refereujoe tO' the tliird instance when you saw blood upon the floor? A. No; I couldn't, for I just went out then; I was moved from my place and I couldn't give the other- man's name. Q, Have you stated all the oases to which your attention was called, or which you now pecoUect in reference to inmates Teoeiving severe punishment? A Yesi; aU that I can now remembe!r. Q. Did you eve^r clean blood off of the floor in the bath-room? A. Yes, siT. Q. How many timies? A. I can safely say I cleaned scars of blood where it spaJttered' up against the wall and scrubbed' the wall off a dozen times; in fact; every day aften ithey paddled I would have to go in there and clean the iDiaith-room. 963 Q. Clean up excrememt from, tihe ffloioir? A. Yesi, adlr. ■ Q. How oftBDi Hare yoiu had to do tliat? A. Ok, I b. si •Q. You fiajf positively these oasea you refer to occurred? A. 'No; X dou't say > that; I saw them, after tthey weiie ouit in the slbop. Q. How many tuues did you find Mood spattiersi during those twenty , times against the wall or on the floor? A. I couldn't positively eitatte just how many times, but I cam slay six or eight times. , I Q. Out of the twentty times you only found blood isix or eight titaoies? A. 'Yejs^ sir.) ' Q. The rest consdsted of mastiness you found there? A. Yes, sir. By Dr. Smith: Q. WhJaft part of the baith-rioom did you find tihe blood? A. The window facing this Outside; right up agaimsit it Q. Were you ^ever told to wash the blood' off in iSo maoiy words)? A. Yes, sir; McMslii, an officer, used to tell me to go in there and clean; the bath,-iioom.. Q. Were you told to wipe up the blood spatters and sitainsi? A. Yes, isSr; the istains; whatever there wias. Q. At the time you found blood isitains and wiped them up in tlhje hallways, do you know what, part of the body itihe blood came from? A. It was on the head and one was on. the iside; he had his heald over like tlhat. (Indibating.) Q. None from the back that you know? A. No' sir; I have other stuff to clean up from the back. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You were not present at any of the paddlings^ so you couldn't of your own knowledge know where tlhe blo'od came from? A. No; no prisoners are present at the paddling only tliose being paddled. Q. Your knowledge of where rtlhe blood came from is deraved ' from the fact of sedng the man hold his head over coming from the ba-th-room? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yow havp .actuaiHy seen blood drop from his head? A. Yes^ sir. ' 964 By Dr. Smitlj;: Q. You spoke aboat a wound on a miaai's heaid tlhiat caime tx> tlh.e hollow-ware room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see Hhajb wound? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long was it? A. A cut' on tbie top of itlie head an inch and a lialf. / Q. Was there amy dressing on it of any kind? A. Had some plaster; kind of cut three different ways. Q. Yon saw the plasteri; you didn't see the cut? A. I saw the cut because he washed it out in the holioiw-wiane and pnt clean plaisteiri on. { By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you give the name of that one? A. Brady or O'Braidy. Q. Do you know where he is mow? A. He wasi tnansferTed away from here to Clinton or Auburn; I wouldn't say. Q. 0am you give his consecutive number:? A. Not sif; I couldn't. ; Q. In reference to the one that hiad the cut on the side of the head, did you see any plaster upon that ? A. No, sir; that was right out so you could Jock at it and see it. Q. Do you know of any of the inmates being taken to the hos- pital after they had been paddled ? A. Clare, 4020. Q. WTiat do you know about him ? A. He was up in the resit ' cure, and was taken right after that trouble about outline, school outlines, he was taken up in the hospital and kept there quite a length of iime. By Dr. Smith: Q. Did you see him taken there ? A. No: I didn't see him any more after they took him up. Q. Did you see him in the hospital? A. Yes; thene wasi a man cut his finger very bad, and I took the man up in the hospital, and I saw Clare. Q. How long was that after this punishment that you speak of ? A. In May, 1890. Q. How long altefr the punishment did you see this man in the hospital ? A. About three weeks; two weeks and a half. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you know how soon it was after he was punished that he was taken to the hospital ? A. I couldn't say to the number of days, but It was six or eight days. 965 Q. You didn't see him taken there? A. Noi Q. Did you see Mm between tlie time that lie was paddled or puamalbeid lamd the time he was taken to the hoepital? A. Yes, sir. Q. What, if anything, did you see in reference to bruisea ? A. Hi^ ©ye wials swollen. By Dr. Smith: Q. Where did you see him that time ? A. Dp in the rest cure. Q. YoTl don't know that he was taJcen to the hospital from the balih-room or from any punishment he received in the baith-room ? A. No; I couldn't sa;^'. i Q. You didn't see him there until three weeks after the punish- ment ? A. Two weeks and a half. Q. In ithe meantime you saw him in the rest cure ? A. Yeei; between that time aaid the next time 1 saw him up ia the hospital. By Judge Gilbert: Q. What did you observe with reference to bruises upon him when you saw him aJ'ter he had been m the bath-room ? A. His face was cut on the side, around his eye, somewheres around here, and his eye was all black in under here. I Q. Under the eye ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you examine his back ? A. No. Q. Do you know where that inmate is now ? A. New York or Bi"0Oklyn. Mr. Stanchfleld. — That was Cleere he refers to. He was) sworn in New York. Q. At any time did you hear the prisoners say anything or cry out with pain or anything of that kind when^ they were being punished in the bath-room ? A. Yejs; they were accustomed to keeping soft soap that we cleaned up the hall with under the siteps of the hall, that the bath-room led off through the door to the left; I thought they wene through one noon, and the oflflcers were busy, and they were just in the act of paddling the last man, and they came out right after that; I was in a hurry; I opened "the door and went in to get a pail of soap; he says, "Oh, Mr. Brockway, I never took the hose ;" he sayis, " I hope you didn't." Q. What I want to find out is whether or no during the time that you were acting as hallnian you heard anyone that cried in the bath-room ? A. This case that I just cited to you, that cried in the bath-roiom. Q. In reference to hearing the prisoners ciy out with pain oir anything of that kind while they were being punished ? A. This boy giwuied; the case I just cited he hollered otit and said that to the fimperinitendeaiit. 966 Q. Did you see the boy aftenvai'ds ? A. Yes; I saw him come ouL Q. Any marks upon him? A. No^; I didn't notice that. Q. Any other tnstanoe when you heai'd! the prisoners ray out with pain or anything of that kind while they wei'e in the bath- room? A. No, sir. Q. Has anyone spoken to you with reference X0 whatl you would testify to upon this heiarin'g? A. No, sir. Q. Is Reynolds and the rest of those heiie ? A. Reynolds and White is here. Q. They are both here? A. Yeis, sir. By Mr. SUanohfield: Q. is McAndrews here? A. No; he was an officer in the inisti- tution and he wemt aw*ay; hiis time has expired now. Q. Is Maloney here? A. ilaloney is ini the city of Elmira. Q. Do you know what his first name is? A. Noi; I couldn't say; I think it was Miohiael Malonej'. Q. Is Aldridg© here? A. No, 'Sir; the las* I heard 'he was in a place called! rortlandville, . a short distance firom the city of Albany, working foa* Burr Bros., sash and blind factory. Q. Is Brady or O'Brady in Clinton or Aubum? A. I couldn't say which. ; Q. Do you remember the datle youi saw him with his head cut open, the month or year ? A. It was in 1891. Q. Caa yoiu gire the month? A. No; I coul^Mt positively ^ve- the month to be sure; I liave foir|go*t|en. By Judge Cxilbert: Q. How long were you hallman? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety, part of January, Febniary and March. By Mr. Stanchfleld: Q. No other time? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Hiare you seen Mr. Brockway around in the priison lately? A. Yes, sir. ' ' Q. Whereabouts? Mr. Stanchfleld. — How is that material? Judge Grilbert. — I am requested txj a,sk it. Q. On the guardrroom floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. You don't know of his giving any orders or taking any actiive part in the management? A. I know in the barber shop the 967 other aight lie told the stenoigTapher noitl to come dowu in tke bai-ber shotp any more; he wooiH find' somethmig for him to do hereafter. _ Q._ He was there simply getting shayed? A. Yes, sir; but he didn't want him to be down there; to speak plainly, he called, him down fooj being there; he would find something for him to do'; to 8t,ay on the guard-room floor. Q. He wias in the barber sihiop getitinjg shajved? A. Wbo^ Mr. Brockwiay? Q. Yes sir? A. No, sir; he was going around tihraugh the trade schools in tihe evening; he donr't get shaved down there. Q. Don't he get shaved by immates? A. I never saw him, and I have been down there a number of times when' he waiS pmsing througih there. That is all. Frank Koenig, being duly iswoirn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Same 'statement was maide to this witness by the chairman as to the fomiier witness. Q. Whajt is your full name? A. Pranik Koenig. Q. Whiat grade are you now in? A. Black suit. Q. Were were you sent from? A. Brooiklyni. Q. What offense? Burglairy in the third. Q. Did yoiu plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were ymL sent? A. June 17, 1891. Q. Were you ever in the red grade? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How long after you had been in the reformatory were you placed in the red grade? A. I was here three months and placed in the red grade fifteen months. Q. You have been in the red graide fifteea raontlhs? A. Yes, sir. Q. You are now in the second gTade, have you ever been in the first grade? A. No, isir. Q. While you liave been in the reformatory do jmi claim you have been sieverely punished ? A. ^ esi, sir. Q. In what manner ? A. Punished for having a little piece of tobacco, and taken down in the bath-room and had to put my aiims up before the bars there, and got six riight oyer my Ididneys and five on my head. Q. With what on the head ? A. A strap. Q. For wihat ? A. For having a little piece of tobacco. Q. For what did you receive the blows over the head ? A. For not telling him who I got it off of. 968 Q. Weneta't you paddled because you Avouldn't tell wh.o you got tb.e tobacco from ? A. Yea, sir. Q. Wty did h.e strike you over the head, instead of strikiag you upon the back ? A. I don't know what his reason was for- doing HiaiL Q. Didn't you turm your head when he struck you over the hieadi? A. No, sir. Q. How many blows in all did you receive at .that time ? A, Eleven.. Q. Did you finally tell from whom you received tobacco ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he stop puni.shiiing you just as soon as you told him who you received it from ? A. Yes, sir. Q. During the time that he was infliofctng the blows did hje repeatedly ask you if you would tell who you got the tobacco from ? A. Noi, sir; I told Mm myself I would tell hlim if he wouldn't hit me any more. Q. Did you tell Mm that more than once ? A. Yes; I asked him would he please let me go, and still he kept Mtting me. Q. When you asked him if he would please let you go if you would tell Mm who you got it from ? A. I menrtfioned it once, and he says, " Get up there, get up there." Q. When you wene being punisihed that time were your hands chained up to anything ? A. Yes; I was chained around my ^^Tist and strung up I guess about two inches from the floor. Q. So your feet didn't touch anything ? A. Yes, sir. Q. During the entii'e time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. That you were receiving all these blows ? A. That was the time I received the blows on the head; some one grabbed my head back, and I received one ac'ros:s my nose, one a.crosB my lip and one here. Q. Did it cut your head ? A. Cut my head ; blood was running down, I couldn't see out of my eyes; a man in the noom with me kept putting water over my head. Q. Do you mean to say you received all that jyuniiishment wMle you were chained up in front of the window, and in such a manner that your feet didn't touch the floor ? A. Yes, sir; the flve blows I received on the head. By Mr. Litchfleld: Q. Couldn't you touch the floor with your toes ? A. No; just about an inch; I got a little jei-k down; somebody held me, I believe; then I would touch them, and they would pull me up again. 969 Q. Your weigM entirely held by yoiu" wrist ? A. EigM around your wrislt. Q. Someone was holding yon up? A. Yes, sir; some man was tliere, I believe, pulling up the rope, held me up thej?©. Q. Didn't he hold you up by taking hold of your 'arms ? A. ]Sb, sir; had a pulley above on one of the bans, and a rope run across. Q. And he was pulling the rope ? A. Yes, sir; hoisting me up. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Were you punished at any other time ? A. I was pimished onoe for fighting. Q. Did you, upon this occasion, faint, the first time ? A. Nb, sir. Q. Did! they commence punching yoiui in ajny way before they strung you up ? A. He hit me acroeis here six raps. Q. Didn't he hit you the isix raps across the back before yoiu were strung up ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And then the only blows you claim hei struck you after, you w^ere srtirung up weireover yonr head? A. Yes, siir. Q. What had you been doing and what did. you do' aftem you tfieoeived the six blows on the biack ithaifc caused them to string you up? A. I don't know what wiap the cause of sitringing me up. Q. Didn't you slay something to the offlcens? A. Didn't say a word. Q. Didn't you do somathimg? A. No; only stood there and holleired. Q. Because of the pailn which yon suffered? A. Yesi, sir. Q. What did you holler? A. I a^ked hiim to let me- go. Q. Did you cry? A. Yesi, siir. Q. What was your age at the time? A. Twenty. Q. Were you ever punishied ait lany other time when you claim the punishment was isevere? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ever see anyone else severely punished? A. Yes, sil". Q. Who? A. I don't remember his name; but I know where he locks; he was all right when he first ciame up here; he could speak and hear as plain m any miani; he can't hear now. Q. Do you claim yon were permanently injured' in any wiay by the severe punishment you received? A. I didn't! feel good aftter I received that punishment; I wasn't worth nolthilng; the next day I went to work in the D. B., doiwn below, land' I couldn't lift five pounida i 122 970 Q. Ane yoai suffering now from the effects of iMait injuiry in aJiy way? A. 'No. | Q. You dom't claim your lieairlng hiais been afleofcedi or your ^e sighst been affected? A. My eye sdght don't iseein as' good am it waiS then. Q. You don't claim seriofusly that you wene petmiaiDenitly injuiried in any way by tlie punishments you received ait that time; who was this partj' that you I'efeTtred toi that you claim was seTeirely pmiiis(h.ed? A. I don't know thiat painty? Q. Do you know his cell numiber? A. Foiuir hundired and twenrty-nine; I believe. Q. His con^cutive numiber? A. I don'tl know hisi consecutiTe numiber. i Q. When was it tha* thiisi party waisi iseverely punished? A. About seven months ago; six or seven months lago. Q. Is he still in the insitltutiom? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Do you know he was taken to the barth-TOom? A. Yes, sfir. Q. Did you see him taken there? A. Yesi, sir. Q. See him when he came from: the bath-roomi? A. No^ edtr. Q. See any marksi upon Mm after he was taken from the baA- roonx? A. No, sir. Q. You don't know lanything about him except whaitl he told you? A. He didn't tell me nothing; I had been workiing with the' man; yvhim he first came here he could' heatr well eaoiugh; nioiw he is deaf; couldn't hear nothing. Judge GUbert. — The evidence in relatioii .to the hearing ehould be irtiicken out. \ Q. What do yoni toiow in ineiationi toi the offioema on amy of them, siuperlntendent or any other offlcer, istriking inmaite® other thain pajddlinig them? A. No, sir. Q. Haven't seen, anything of that? A. No<, sir. Q. Usiiig profane language toi them? A. No, sda*. Q. Did you write a letter; to the committee? A. Yes|, sir. Q. (Presenting.) Is this the letteo" you viTotei? A. Ye®, mr.' Q. Weaie you ever convicted' of aaiy crime befoire yoiu were senit to the reformatory? A. Yea, sdr. ; Q. How many differenit timies? A. Onoe. Q. For what? A. Petit larceny. Q. "V^Tiat prison were you sent? A. Orofw HMl. Q. For how long la tunie? A. Three monlthis. Q. Who was praseut at the time you claim you were isifcrang up? A. I don't remember. ! Q. Do you nememiber any of the officers' names? A. No, sir. Q. State when iU was? A. November eleventh, a year and two months ago. ,. ■ 971 Q. What had yom been doing, whait did tlhey claim ycm had been doikiig tiha* camsed them to pmisih you.? A. I (hjad; a littte piece of tdbajoco. 'Q. Are you sure tlhaA; wasi it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you accused of masituiibation? A. Noi, sir. Q. T!he only ohange was you got toibaccoi from; sotmeouje? A. Yea, si'F. Q. Can you describe the paddle that was used wheu' you wa-e punis^hed? A. There were two tihere; they were laying in a bucket of water; I don't know whether it was' viniegair or w!ha* it was; they were lajyinig in ai pail. Q. Botih of thoise srtraps? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litcihfleld: Q. Did tihey w!hip you with bottjh of tlhem or only one of them? A. I dqm'it knoiw. James Joeeplh Edey, being duly sworn, testified: Exjamimed by Judge Grilbert: The same statement was made to thiis witness as tip the former witmiesess. Q. Wharfj is your full name? A.' James Joseph Riley. Q. Where were you sent from to the reformaitpry? A. Sl^aten island. Q. For what offense? A. Fongery. Q. What did you forge? A. A check. Q. What amount? A. Fifteen dk>lars Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your age a* the time? A. Seventeen years. Q. When were you sent to the ireformatolry? ' A. August 5, 1891. Q. Have you been punished since you have been in the reforma- tory? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times? A. Six times to my knowledge. Q. How many was .t|he greatest number of blows you received? A. Eight. Q. Did you receive any upon any other portion of your body than upon your back? A. Yes, sir; upon my head. Q. What had you been doing when you were struck over the head? A. I was looking around toward the man that was lick- ing me. ' Q. Before receiving the blow what] did you say? A. I didn^t ' sa V anything; I turned my head toiward the left and I was struck. Q. Did you try? A. Yes, sir; I did; I hollered as lould as I could. 972 , Q. Before you were struck over the hieaid? A. No, sir. Q. HoW many had j see me audi see my conditictti. Iklr. Stamchfleld. — I would like it to appear on the' record he was in snibsitantially the same condition! when he came heire. .Q. When you caime here was your physical condition Mb- stiantially the same as it isi now? A. I had tMisi whem I came here; but it hiais grown worse: since I came here. Q. You had' had am opera-tioni pemfonued befoire you came here? A. Sure; more than a year before that. Q. Mot© than one? A. I had it all done ait once. Q. More than one? A. Tesi, sir; Ave of them. Q. Before you came here? A. Yesi, isir. Q. Have you had any operation pelrtonned on you of a surgical characiter sinice you oame here? A. ISTo, sitr. Q. Has Dn. Wey done anything ajt all foir you? A. Noi, siir; neveip eiven looked' at mei, only when I finsit came here as a new man hie took me downstains on thie guaird-TOooni floor amd exaiiii- inied mie tio see if I was fit to be put in military; he saw my con- ditioni then. Q. Ivet me undetrstteind this, becamse Dr. Smith will be asked to eixamSne you to see whether you have been neglected; do you raeami to say, positivery, that durinig the' entii"e 'time you liave been here Dr., Wey has not treatied you eWier Iby any siurgical operaMon or by giving you medicine of any kind? A. For the diiairrhloea he has given me mediicdne; in November I had a serious artJtacK of dianrhoeai for fbur weeks T laid in my roomi; he gave me milk for that, and them he gave me some kind of a black powder; I have ai poirtion of it in my iroom yet; mieveir had any effect otn mie; I told him it was not doing me any good; at the end of fotun weekiS I think I laid in; Mr. Sample haid ei job for me; 981 am eaisy joW; tto sort rage oiut; and I was takem' out of my room still with itihe diarrfxoea, and pmt a£ itMs raig sotrtilnig. Q. He nieTCir has exajmined' yoiui at lall? A. ISTo^ sir; only thiat once when I oaime iiene as a mew mian, Q. What did he siay ttuen in -refepeiQce to your comdirtion? A. He didn^'it giiYe me ma isiatistfaitioai. Q. What did he them siay; did he say aaxythiing asi (to what was tlhle matter witETyoiu on what treatment should bei adopted? A. No, isdrj aili he dbne was this; I haive to keep' here a comtiaual pad of oakima aaid gauze; wnapped ia gauze; this is a thing I hare had a great deal oif difficulit^^ in getting from his steward, throuigh his neglect; here is: my poimt; tihiis stuff I hare to keep it there oomtinually, and this pad' oi oakum and gauze he gaive me ini bunches of oakum that size, and two or three yards of gamzB; I tear it up and make a sm'all pad of it, and put it there, and them I haTe a bunch the shape of a T. Q. Isn't it true that isimce you have ibeea' im the refonmatolry the woirk you have been required toi doi is of .a very light chairacter? A. For the first five month here I worked im the maichiime shop. Q. Doing what? A. Leajming the maohiaist tnade; I woirked with a hammer and chisel fom the flnst two months, stranding on my feet lat the vise; chipping a Mock of iron; I was in en great dteiai ibetter condition th^en; I oouidDa't do that mow; I held out for' five momths; then: I broke down; 'the change of food caused am eruption to break out. : Q. Now you 8a,y you are guard at that gate? A. Yw, sir. Q. How lomg have you been in that j)oslitiom? A. Only (two days. Q. What were you doing befoce that? A. Going about the yard isweeptng. Q. How long have you been engaged ini that? A. Whem I was reduced Maa^ch siecond of last year, oir of thisi yeajr, at least; I was mfindinig a door ini the foundry, opening amd shutting' the door to let mem in and out of the yand; that is where I lost my parole and my gnade. 1 Q. What was the charge made against you; how did you come to lose youa^ parole? A. To allow another man ,ta asila visitoim for tobacco, and accepting a piece of it myself. Q. You were reduced because yoii yoursielf accepted a pdlece of tobacco ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any other cliarge made against you ? A. ISo, sii". Q. At amy time since j'ou have been here? A. No, sir; I have never been in any crooked buisinessi before them or since, Q. The only charge madiei .against you is the one you have mentioned ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In tJie trade schools you work at wha* ? A. Maohinie departmeoilt. Q. Whait bave you doaie for tJie last few weeks in <&mt claas ? A. On a platne. Q. Do you stand ? A. No, sir; I sit ou a eifeool foiP that; all the olther work except tttis ome particular work you arei allowed, to isit at. Q. It is true that since thei officials have undierstood your coni- diltiiomi they have given you as a general thing, light employment? A. Yes, eiir. Q. So tharti your whole complaint is narrowed dowm to tMs', you thiTiik the physdiciami hasi not given you the attention he omght? A. YeBL sir. By Dr. Smith: Q. Who operated on you outside ? A. ProtfesBor Stimson; I was in the New York hospital; Professor Stimison, Professor Bull and Professor Ware attended my opeia-tiom. Heniry Sohultz, being duly swooi, testitfled: Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as' to the former witnesses. Q. What is your full name ? A. Henry Schultz. Q. W^ere were you sent from ? A. Medina. Q. Foa? what? A. I was going Ito break: intoi a place and they caught me at it; nothing was taken. Q. You were atbemptiaig burglary ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Yes^ sir. ' Q. They sent yoiu to the refoirmatlolryi? A. Yes, sir. Q. How old were you at the time they sent you to the reforma- tory ? A. Eighteem Q. When weire yon sent ? A. Year ago last June. Q. Ace your parents living ? A. My motheri is liviilnig; my father has been dead foiurteen years. Q. Had you any employment before ? A. Yes, sir; I worked in a meat market for over a year, and worked in a pa/il factory. Q. Had you ever been convicted before tiha:t ? A. Yes, sir; once; I took a pair of shoes near Tonawanda. Q. Were you put in prison for that ? A. Yes, sir; thlirty daya , Q. Ever convicted of anything elsie ? A. Yea, sir; I got a little fine, but I always paid my fine. Q. Had you paid iseveral before that ? A. Only one; that was seven dollars. 983 Q. And was put in. jail onoe ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were sent heire ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Since you have been here have you been a pirefbty good boy ? A. Pretty faw. , Q. Eveir beem punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In ithe bath-room ? A. Yes^ sil". Q. Did you write to the committee a letter ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You sitafted in that letter you never had been, in the batlh- noom youmsielf ? A. Yes, sir. Q. (Presenting.) Is this your letter ? A. Yesi, sir; that ilsi mine. Q. Is it true you had been in the bajth-room ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. How many times had you been punished ? A. Thneei timesi Q. Punished each tiiue ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What were you taken to the baith- they ajre ? A. Pearce is one. Q. In what depaiTtment is he in ? A. I don't know thait he works art; all now; he is deaf; he is an idiot now. Q. What do you know in reference to Pearce ? A. I know last year he was second sergeant in my coompany, D Oomipamy, as lively as I am; now he is deaf and more like an, idilot; he can't hear, and has a funny, cirazy walk; acts lilce a drunken man. Q. Wliat have you seen in reference to bruises upon him ? A. I have seen him goinifi in Hhe bath-room and coming out, and seen him handled roughly in the hall. By ^Ir. Litchfield: Q. Who handled him roughly in the hall ? A. Colonel Halpia wais one and Mir. Murphy the other. Q. A^liat did he do to him ? A. Struck him. Q. In what way ? A. With his hands. Q. With the flat of his hand ? A. Clo'sed fist. Q. "\Miere did he strike him ? A. Face and body. Q. What did you see in the appearance of Pearce indicatingi that he had. been cruelly or se\'erely punisihed in the balh-room ? A. I saw them rt^ake him in there and saw him run out, and run after him on the guai-d-room floor and get him on the noir|th side and kick him amd hit. him and strike hJim with their closed hands and taJie him in the bath-room, and canry him out. By Judge GrUbert: Q. Ton saw him when he was carried out ? A. Yes. Q. How was he carrried otit ? A. One man hold of his feet and one man hold of his head. 991 Q. "WJialt, if amjiilimg, did you observe in ref enemce to blood ? A. I was om tllie toip gallery. • Q. Diid yOTi see any marks or bruises upon >iiTr! af tonwairds ? A. Yea; hje was swollen aU over his fajce. Q. Desmbe it; was it discolored ? A. Yes, sdr; black; his ej'es were closed. ; Q. Was Ms face cut in any way ? A. No, sir; I didn't have a close view of him. Q. Did you see him afterwairdis so you had a close view of him? A. Not untU quite a while aifber. Q. Is that all you can say in' reference to: this man Eeapce? A. That is all I remember; I don't remember their names. Q. How long ago was thajt? A. About a year agoi; isomewheres aawmd wiarm weajthetc. Q. A year ago thisi last summer? A. Yeisi, sir. Q. Can yoTi give his number ? A. Fifty-thnee hundred amd forttf-four. ' I Q. You say you saw themi knock this Pearce down im thie haiU; desoriibe what you saw there and who was eingaged? A. He struck Mir. Murphy; PieaiPce did. i Q. Didn't Pearce knock Muanphy down? A. No, sir. Q. He first assaulted Murphy? A. He hit hiim so he stepped back. ^ ' ' Q. After assaulting Muirphy he ran? A. Yes. Q. And the officers after ihim? A. Yes. Q. You didn't see Peairce injured or struck by anyone until after you ^saw him strike the officieris? A. I only isaw him struck by the officers. Q. You didn't see thie officers strike or attempt to injure Peairce untU after Pea^oe had struck the oflfioer; did you? A. No, sir. Q. When you say you saw them striking Pearce and assiaulting him in the hall it wasi after Pearce had struck ttie officer? A. Had run away; yes, sir. _ , Q. Pearce struck the first blow? A. 'that I couldn't isay; I couldn't see under the gallery; "I could only see their being out from the gallery. ' i Q. If you can mention any other particular case; do so? A. That is all I know of.' Q. Is there anything else you desire to statie in reference to the manner in which prisoMera are treated? A. That is aU. ■Q. Who was it that carried Pearce out in the mianuier you have desciribledi? A. I believe it was Mr. Miurphy, and I don't know who the other one was; I know there was two. Q. Where did they take Pearce to? A. Down, to the solitary. Q. Did you see Pearce afterward in) thie solitary? A. No, sir. 992 Q. Do you know how long he remained in the solitairy? A. No, eir; I do not. By Dr. Smith. Q. Who m Mr. Mahoney; do you' know him? A. Yes, sir; he used to worlv with me in the hail. .Q. What about his case? A. 1 don't know anything aibout it. Q. He died; didn't he? A. Yes; they said he died *9udden- Q. Any relation between his death and the bath-room? A. Not that I know of. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You saw him when he was taken to the biaith-roomi; Mahoney? A. Yes. Q. You saw him when be was taken away from the bath-room? A. Yes. Q. Did they carry him away or did he walk? A. I didn't see him come out of the batli-room. Q. "^Tien did you se^e hinx? A. Tic was walking; he was healthy. Q. AA^a.9 it right away aitJer he had been in the bathj-room that you saw him? A. I didn't see him until a few nights aiCter in the bri'ddaying class. Q. Did you see any marks or sca.w ii|>on him? A. Yes, sir; saw hia eyes closed; a black and blue spot around his eyes and his lips swollen. Q. How long 'after that was it that you heard that he was dead? A. I don't know. Q. About how long? A. About two weete. Q. Do you know how long te had been in the hospital? A. No, sir. ' Q. Do you know whether he was in the hoispital at all or not? A. I know he was. Q. About how long af tier you saw him in the Olass) befoire you understood or knew that he was in the hospital? A. A young fellow told me, out of the hospital, Mahoraey waJs up there in] the hoisirital. Q. How long was that after you saw him' in the clasps that you unidenstood or knew he was in thie hospi'tlal? A. I know he went in the bath-room^ and from, the bath-room to' the foun'diry, and he got sick in the foundry and they pu'tl Mm ini the hospital. Q. Waisn't it Sam^ple that took Vearae to the bath-room? A. Xo. sii'. Q. Can you give us any particular in reference tb Mahoney, so we could identify him; what was he working at? A. Bricklaying trade. 993 ' Q. What ciell did He ocoupy? AL That I don't knotw'; lie waei om the soutih sidle. -, Q. Wh.at grade was he in? A. When he went in tihe bath-room he was in the black grade; he went ini tairtioulars in reference to that? A. That ttme he paddled me so much I wasn't alble to ^stand up; he gave it to me hard; I knowedthere was blood on my iback; that is, where he paddled me; he didn't hit me laicroiss the head that time. Q. How many blows did you receive that time? A. About seventeen or eighteen. Q. Were yon chained up or tied' up? A. Noi, sir; at that tiimle the iShirt was throwed over my head, and I remember that time Sample was down there alone; Hiaipin wasn^t there. , Q. Nobody there but Brockwiay? A. Mr. Biglin, Sample and Brockway. Q. Is that all >'ou have to say in reference to that occasion ? A Yes, 'sir. ■ ;' f '^ Q. Wais there any other occasion when you claim you WiCre severely punished ? A. Not acrosis the head; a number of times I received too much punishment. Q. Have you stated all occasions when you received blows over the head or any other part of your body than your back ? A. Yes, 'Sir. ■ > ■ . ' . , ' 996 Q. Upon any occasion weire the blows so seveire that they caused the blood to run from your back ? A. The last time I mentioned. Q. How mamy blows did you receive tlhen ? A. Seven.teen or eigktieen. Q. Describe your back to tlie committee? A. I was sO' I couldn't sit down in school for a week after without jjain. Q. Did the bloiod run ? A. Yes, sir; the blood run for a while after tliat. Q. Did you aihlow your back to anyone ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you able to walli out of the bath-room younself after that punishment ? A. I was thrown out; I didn't have to walk out. Q. By whom ? A. Mr. Sample. Q. You say thrown out; What did he do ? A. Grabbed me by the sihiirt and baick of the neck and gave me a isling, so I went head first into a ladder outside the door, and there Mr. Murphy was to assdislt me, and he put me in a cell Q. Did' you faJl as you went out of tihe door on to the floor or pavement ? A. Into the iron ladder. Q. You were taken to a ceil, what cell? A. I don't know the numbers. Q. You know what is meant by the isolitaries? A. I Diever was ia the solitary. Q. Never had chains upon yon ? A. No, sii Q. What yoii claim is you were severely punished in the man- ner you have stated ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wliat had \mj been dodng; what did they claim you had been doing that caused them to punish you so ? A. 1 diau.'t do no severe offen'se; the last time I no more than went in than the superintendent says, "Talking;" 1 says, "Yes, sir;" "Get down your pants;" that was all. Q. That was the only charge made against you ? A. Yes, isir. Q. Talking to who ? A. To some man in the ohapel . Q. Anyttihing said 'in reference to the manner in wliich you had been talking?' A. No, sir; simply said, " Talking," and I says, "Yes, sir." By Dr. Smith: Q. When, were yon pimished last ? A. In January; a year ago tliis January'; T couldn't say the date. Q. You said you had been to the ba:tih-room sixteen timies; you were not punished every time ? A. No; a couple of times the superiaitendent let me go. Q. You were only punished three times ? A. I was punished twelve timieB. 1 ' 997 Q. Four tiru'es you went ftiheiie and were n,ot punished ? A. Yes, 'Sir. By Judge' G-ilbert: Q. What do yiooi know in neferenoe to otliera. being ptinislied ? A. I saw a number of men come out there with, b'laick eyesi; I seen one man led aroumid tihe inistitution. fan a week. Q. Who was that ? A. He is a first lieutenamt now, McLee, so that he wasn't able to see.; two men wea-e leading him. around the inistitu!ti,on. Q. Describe his face ? A. liis face was perfectly black; from there up; fron^ his Mp up, so that his eyes were swollen way out. Q. Swollen shut ? A. Yes, siir. Q. Did you see him when he was taken to the bath-room ? ' A. I seen liim when he was chalked in, and I sieem him when he came out. Q. You slaw him during the week following ? A. Yeis, sir. Q. How did he look when he wais chalked in? A. His face was all right befone he wenft in the bath-room. Q. How loeig wasi he chalked in before he wenit to the blatih- roomj? A. Chaiked' in for losing a doUar. Q. How long before? A. Half am htoun; he got chalked in ait 12 o^clock. Q. Hofw soon after he was in the batth-room did you siee, him? A. I got' chalkeid m the same day. Q. Did you see, 'Mini' com,e out of the bath-room? A. I didn't eee Mm when he came out. Q. How long was he in the baitih-roomi? - A. About ten minutes. Q. Hia face was all swoUeii up? A. It was, all swelled up, but it was not as bad as it wasi an hour after. Q. Do you know whoi went in thte- bath-roomi with Mm or who was with liimi in the ba,th'-room? A. No; I couldh't say aibout thait. Q. Did you see any officer with Mm? A. Mr. Samiple was at the baith-noiom. Q. Do you know where this man is now? A. Yesi, sir; in the inBitit;uiti'On. Q. And is an inmiaite officer? A. Yes, ear; first lient^amt. Q. TM® man yo;u are ispeaking of? A. Yes, Siir. Q. His consecutive numiber? A. Forty-eight hundred and fointy, I ithink; sometiMnig liktei that. Q. Oan you state any other where they received severe punish- ment? A. I known one man, Murray; I know aiboioit' him; I know that .Murray used to lock next door to' me; I know he was in good health, and one week he got chalked in and got taken to the 998 battsh-rooiin; lie got sdick from that and go* put m the gymnaisium, and he wasi in tlhe gymniaBdiuin I couldn't say hioiw long'; about tihree weeks or a month, aad he went downi to the batih-room agiain for isomething, and he wa«i out of ihie bath-room a little while wihen he wiais taken in> the hospital and died up there. Q. Did you see him' after he was punished the flnst tiine? A. Yes, sir. Q. What, if anything, did you see iudioatlnig that he had been severely punMied? A. He got a black eye. Q. Did you see any other nmrk upon hisi face? A. No, edir. Q. See any other mairks upon his person? A. No^ sir; I did not. Q. After that lie was taken to what class? A. Physical culture class. • Q. Wias there how long? A. I couldn't say exaictly how long, a month OP month anid a half. Q. Did you see him aoon after the second punishnient? A. I seen him chalked ioi; I know a man that dM see him. Q. You didn't see him yourself aifter hie was punislied the second tune? A. Noi; I know he was' in good health' befoire that. Q. Do you know of any other instances where an inmate was punisihed iui the (bath on' three consecutiye days? A. Yes, sir. Q. Oan you give his name? A. I don't know his namej he used to work in the hairdwHire shop. Q. Can you giye his number? A. No Q. Can you give the cell he was confined' in? A. He used to lock on the top gallery. Q. Can you give the day of ithe month on which thisi occurred? A. No, sir; I seen the man, though. By Mr. litchfleld: Q. (Presenting.) Was this the siirap with which you were pun- ished? A. Yes, sir. Q. That is the identical one? A. Yes, sir; I didn't hare much of a chance to. examine it while I was in the bath-room; but it looks like it. Q. You never were punished with anythinig else but this paddle? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you ever see any of the inmates sitmck in any other way except with the paddle? A. Only what I have heard them saj'. Q. Have you ever seen them? A. No, sir. Q. Or kicked? A. I was kicked myself. Q. By whom? A. By the superintendent, and I was hit in the face with, his fist oxuce. 999 I Q. Where were you? A. In the bath-room. Q. Where did he kicik you? A. In the shinis. Q. Why? A. I don't knoiw why; he saye: "Get over and take down your pants; " and (give me a kick. Q. Hurt you? A. Yes^ mr; it did hurt. Q. Where were you when he struck you with his flsit? A. Stand- ing right in front of him; that was the only time he let me goi. Q. You say upon one of these ocoaisionsi when you were taken to the bath-room and wasn't paddled the euperinitendemt struck you with his fist? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was that with reference to your going inttoi the bath- room; was it just aisi yoiul entered the bath-room? A. No; he read the reports and I denied them all; I said I didn/tl dee^erve them, and he says: " Get out them; " and hit mie for ail he was worth in the face with his flst. Q. Whereajbouts did he isittrike you? A. In fronit of the face. Q. Leave amy mairksi? A. My lip was swelled up. Q. Have you staited all you said to him oni that occasion? A. Yes, sir; he (read the neports off, anid I would tell him I didn't deserve them. Q. That was all you siaid? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Then he gave the blow you stated? A. Yes, sir. Q. At the time he gave you the sevemiteen blows upon the back during 'that punishmient did you say anything to him^ by way of asldmg him to stlopi, or begging him tOi stop? A. No, sir; he give me about eight, and I commenced to shiver or ;stom.ethiing like that; he says: " Stop your shivering; I wili give you something to shiver; I will give you something to heat you up; " and he gave me eight more, Q. Did you cry? A. No; I went like that; he -says: " Stop your shivering." Q. Wasm-'t it claimed you were quite mischievous? A. Yes, sir. Q. A good many rules you understood that you didn't observe? A. Yes, sir. Q. And knew at the timte you weren't observing them? A. I didn't think; I would talk to a main and wouldn't think. Q. You didn't think it amounted to much, at the same time you knew you were violatinig the rules? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You got a great many reports? A. Yes, sir-. Q. Re'ports for talking, reports for not performing your task and various kinds? A. 1 aiwaysi done my work; I never got any labor reports; I got a good many reports I didn't deserve, and I got reiiort.s I did deseive. Q. Do you think you got puniishment you didn't deserve? A. Yes, sir; I have. 1000 Q. Can you| give Hhe diaite of a piuiisilmiemt wihioli. you received that yolu didn't desierve? A. The time I got the sevenrt»eni raps. Q. Oaui you give the month or day of the monith when that oceuTred? A. I coiuldm't gire the day; I think it was in Auiguist or September a year ago. Q. Is ithat the liast time you were punSiahleidi? A. No, bSt. Q. You have been punished' since you receiveid the seiventeen raps? A. Yes, sir. > Q. How^ majiy times? A. I didn't goi down; many times after that, about four or five times, I should think. Q. When was the lasit time you were punished? A. About a year ago in Januairy. Q. These t\relve pundshments you received ini about what length of time? A. About a year. Q. Your experience is that these twelve punishments you rei;ei\'ed has refoirmed you, so that dui4nig| the next twelve mouths you haven't been punlsilied at' all? A. No, si*; I don^t think that, because I didn't get out of the red' suit until onie day, proolam.a- tion, I was laying in bed ; I thought I might asi well try and get home; I heard from my home. Q. Just as soon as you tried to do right, tried to get the upper grade, then the punishment stopped? A. The bath-room, punisih- ment did; when I got in the black suit I doin^tl think I got many repooits I dasierved; 1 got repio.r(tiS' I didn't desierve; two oiontlhs ag-o I got t^o chocolaite repoirts in a month I didn't desei've, amd I got a chocolate report and sent it b^jck, and I got amother one; I didn't deserve tiiem. Q. Oan you tell who was pnesient at the time the superin- teindenit kicked you or srttruck you in thte face with his' flsit ? A. Colonel Halpin and Mr. Sample. Bobent Hajnigan, being duly awom, testified: The slame sttaitemenit was made to this wiltness ais to former witneHsies: Q. For what offense were you sent to the reformatory ? A Grand lalifcetny, flrsit degree. Q. Wha* place ? A. New York city. Q. Wheu ? A. Fourth of June, 1890. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Not at flnst. Q. You finaMy did plead guilty ? A. Yes, air. Q. Are your ipanents living ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your age when, you were siant tO' tihe refonmatory ? A. Seventeen years old. Q. WTuart had been youlr occupation ? A. I worked a,t a news atand once, and I worked in a tia factory about two moairthis. 1001 Q. Had you Tbieen to school ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wialt school ? A. Not over hei-e. Q. Anywhere ? A. I was i|n St. Joseph Ind-uisitrial School. Q. Had you ever been in college ? A. Yeis>, sir. Q. Since you hare been, in the i^efotmiiajtoiry hiaA^e you beiem pun- ishied ? A. Yeis^ edir; I hajve been piunished eciighteani timest Q. G-enieraily for what ? A. Repdntsi ' Q. ItepoiTits for -what ? A. Laboor- and 0:ther things. Q. Not performing your task ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You iSlay tm- ortlher things, what other things ? A. I got paddled twite for two dhiocoiate reporte Q. Do you claim lany of these punMiments were very severe ? A. Yesl; I -wenlti down theire juany a time; I waisi willing to take the puni'slhmient every time, and a|S soon, as I got ten simacks ovfer my behind I wooildai't hold my hands up any longer; it was impos^ sible ftw me to do oft', and he says, " Get your handsi up there;" I eayg^ "No, Mr. Brockway, it is impoissible for me to do it;" and he gave mie one adrioss ithe neck and gave me a big gash acroisfe my neck; I says, " If you take me out of here dead I couldn't dJo it; I aim too weak," and my right eye was completely closed up; I wouldn't get my hands up, and flna,lly he hit me a kick in the stomach, and I got ciarri'ed out;, and he put me in a back cell on the sofUrth side and' left me there, and chased me to work a half an hour afterwards!. Q. Yoni Slay while being punished at that time he kicked you in the stomach ? A. Yes^ ear. Q. Where wierie you whfen he kicked you upon the stomach ? A. I was stiandinlg up on the floor; as soon ais he hit me one whack wiUh the strap by the side of the neclf, and I put my hands up, and he siays, " Are you going to put youi' han,dis up ;" I says, "No, sjir; it is impossible;" and he gave mie a whack and it kind of dazzled me; I siayisi, " I can^t do it," and he gave me a kick in the belly, and I feO, and I was carried out. Q. Who carried you out? A. I don't know; I wasi insensible; I didn't know where I was. Q. Who was in the room when he kicked you ? A. Mr. Winnie wafe here that timie; Coilonel Halpin was here, and Mr. Sample wals here; I guess that was. all. Q. Were you isftrumg up at that time ? A. No, sir). Q. Is there a isicar upon, your neck where you were struck ? A. Not thlere now, I don't think; impossible for it. Q. Did the bloiod run from any wound niade on yoiu" head ? A. The blood wasn't rumnjing, but it was kind of damp ; I would put my hanidkerchief up to it and keep it djry. Q. Did it bleed ? A. Certainly. 186 1002 Q. Wais the skin ttroken upon your baick? A. Yes, sir; I will leave i* to amy doctoo"; I have beeu paddled' so maoiy tdmosi I aim a Clippie for life. Q. Any mairks upon your back made by tlie blows you received; is there now? A. Not at pnesent. ' Q. Were you pad'died severely at any other time? A. No, sir; not so severely; I ain't kicking about the paddling; I was eartos- fied to take it every time; there is no necessity getting a man up thene and making Mm do wihat he oain't stand or do. Q. Were you, at any time, strung up? A. No, sfiur. Q. (Presenting.) I« this itlhe paddle you were paddled! with? A. Yes, sir; that is it; it was soaked in water heavy. Q. You never were paddled with anything else but that? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in the solitary? A. No, sir. Q. Or dhained? A. Noi, sir; I hiave b^sn Ini the rest cure. Q. How long were you kept thfere? A. For six 'da^ys. Q. On what food? A. One slice of bread and dtink of water eA'^ery afternoon. Q. Were you ever in the 'hospital? A. Noi, sir. Q. What is your employmenit? A. In the umbrella faotbry. Q. Why couldn't you perform yooir task? 'A. Imtpolssible for me to perform the task we had that time; the tiaisk is lowered down and I can do it now. Q. How long ia it since you received your last punishment? A. Over two and a half years now. Q. How long is it since you have been in the red grade? A. It is over two yeans and ten months. , Q. Have you been in the first grade? A. Yes, sir; omoe. Q. Eedtaced to the isecond? A. Yes, sir . Q. Now in the second; have you ever held any poisitioin as inmate officer? A. No, sir. , Q. What, if anything, do jmi know in reference itb other inmates being severely punielhed? A. I don't know how they get pun- ished at all, only I see them with cut eyes the same as I wasi; I never knew about their punishmenf, how they got it; all I know, is myself; I have been in the resit cure, but I don't know what I was in the rest cure for; they had me! in thfere! for six dayisi, and I 'had a perfect record'; I was justi after .eVtting out of tlie seoomd ^^e, and thfey took me out of the s!hop i^^id took me in tflie store-i-ooim, and put me up in the rest cure for six days. Q. When was that; can you give the month,? (No ansiwier.) Q. Have you been- disabled in any way by these punisihtments which you have received? A. Yes, sir; my rigttt leg isl all out of shape; it isn't as stoiit as m'y left leg. 1003 Q. What do you mean? A. It isn':t as stout; it iia all out of slia.pe; aJl sunk in right dtown near my right hip; I suppose T will be crippled! for life. Q. Whait was your condition when you came tO' the refoirmatoiriy? A. I was in the besit of liiealth when I oajme itoi the reformutory. Q. Are you now lame? A. I ain't exaiotly lam;e, but I get a pain once in a while in my right leg; just the same as rheum.i- tism; would lasft me about half a day or sio and clear up again. Q. Any other didBScuity that you know of? A. My tnisidiesi; when I went out td see the physician a couple of times; the iirsitl time we mowed in the esitemsibm it sunk right in my bomesi; I ^as going out to see the physici'ani; he said it was no'thing; I went out again and he said he would give me ai dose to clear me up; that ni^t the hoHipdtal stewaaJd gave me a tumbler full about thaf, size, 'and it ma-de me sick, amid my insides were going upiside down; ever since, if I was in a room by mysielf, youi could hear theniisingiug right up and dbiwmi here. Q. Anything elsie? A. Noi, sir. By Dr. SmiitE: Q. How long ago did he give you this medicine? A. Over two yeans ago. Q. The effect comtinuesi srtiU? A. Yes, sir; I was out to see him abourti eight months ago lalboult it, and he said it was eating my food too fast, land I took a timible, and I eat very Uttie every day, and eat as slow as I could; but ilt is the eiame thiag yet. Q. Any trouible about your lungs? A. No, sir. Q. Have you comsumptilon? A. I don^t know whether it is consumption or not.' Q. What do you mean! by consumption? A. Eight 'here in my throali I spit very bad; some thick stuff. Q. You call that consumptiom? A. That is what I called it; I went iO(ut to see the doctoir about it, and he said it was catarr'h, and I know catainrh was kind of sMmy istuff. Q. Thd.t is what you mean by consumpitiOn? A. Yes, sir. By Judge GUbertt; Q. Where were you bom? A. Ireland. Q. How long have you been in this country?? A. About three yeairs. Q You never: were in any penal institution toefope you oame h«rie? A. I wias in an industrial school; I was not in a prison. Q Where were you in the Industrial school? A. St. Joseph Industrial School, Clamel, in Ireland. 1004 Q. Wlieii you were sent tluere wliart: was yorar age? A. I d'e ? A. The left eye was entirely blackened; I was I'et down, unshackled, and went out to work; that was the flusit experience. Q. Did you go out to work that aftemonn. ? A. Yes, siir; I went 6ut to work thait aftefrnoora; I was put in one of those ceils and in about half an hour I was let oujt to work with the rest of the men that were down that day. Q. bid your back bleed from that punisihmenit ? A. I couldn't tell whelther it was bleeding at the time,'becau'se I had my trousers up, buit I noti'ced here they wer(e all covered with blood; there: was an L on my loin from the comer of this sitrap; there was a sharp ooimer on the strap; that iisn.'t the strap, I can siwear to that, noiw ; it cut a L in the flesh t|here. Q. Is there 'any iscar there ? A. I don't b^eve there is now;, bccamse I looked; it M removed now. By Dr. Sm)i)th: Q. That was the end of the strap that hit you there ? A. I think it was manipulated with *a jerk. Q. That came acrossr your back ? A. I was stiruck from the left and the blow fell on my right; he was on my right. Q. The end of it wounded you ? A. It didn't come around my back; I wais isitiruck friom' the right; he was using his right hand, a'nd it catme on my right. Q. Did he hilt you from behind or hit you directly in front ? A. He hit me direictly like that, in front; the last, that left the mark, was the end of the strap, and it left an L. Q. He muiSt have isltruck with his left hand ? A. He struck ,with the righ*, if the blow came on my right. Q. Were you struck across the abdomen ? A. Across the abdomen. 1008 Q. Most of the blows were struck from behind? A. Yes; those I got across hew were struck in front. Q. You only had one aeross you? A. Oh, no; I had five or six across my stomach; the minimum I will say was four. Q. At the same time? A. At the same time. Q. You stood in that position all the time and received them? A. I stood in tihat position; I went down; there was a big gash in my neck, and Cd. Halpin grabbed me by ithe neck. Q. When you were struck in the abdomen were you held by a cord? A. Not art; rthait time; when I was held by a cond I got it iu the face. Q. Werie you istruck froon behind then? A. I was struck t'he same position as I was when I got it across the istamaoh; I could see the superintendent; he struck me straight in the face. Q. Yon turned around and he struck you four timeis in the stomach? A. As near as I cam calioulaite, four times. Q. You didn't stir during that time? A. I didn't change my position; Col. Halpin kind of manipulartled me in such a way. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Have^ou stated all you desire to state in, oielCerentee to the first punlsihment? A. Yes, sia*. Q. You say you were punished the isiecond time? A. Yes, sir. . Q. State the paoitioulars in reference to thiat? A. The second time was most severe. Q. ^Miat pai-t of it wais most sevene? A. I was disfigured so badly; on my head was one mass of — I wasl groggy; my head was all puffed up, and my eve was shot out as if I had got hit with a Gratling gun; something like that; they done me up iu such a fashion. ; Q. TMiat did they claim you had been doing when you were punished the second time? A. I received a chocolate report; I had a portion of the New York World; I was reading it; I didn't have any library; I was discouraged; I got hold of a World in the shop. ; Q. When was that? A. That was on the twenty-fourth of October, I had this pa.per. ' Q. What year? A. The date of the paper was about six months old; 1S92. Q. .V year ago? A. Yes, sir; an inmate paroledl man was doing duty on the gallery; he is a. dog; he came along and happened to see me have 'this paper. | ' ' Q. It was claimed you had a paper, which was contrary to the rules? A. Yes, sir. 1009 Q. What Mloiwied? A. I was taken down in the batih-room and T received treatment the next day. Q. Wlxat was the treaitmenit aside from tihe paddling? A. I was kieked in the head, and in the ribs and -71101™* treatment. Q. Were you sitining up? A. I was eibning np that day, and tihis eye was emtiiridy ctosied; it was all bnlgied oiut; after they took me \asi unlortumate in coming across this inmate; he made a practice to- chalk in every one he could, no matter what it was for. Q. Isn't it true, so far uiS! your experience goes, that where the inmates have houesitly tried to observe the rules, and perform their tasks, that they hart^e got along easily with the oflflcials; isn't thajt 80 ? A. No, sir. Q. Oam you caU to mind any instance where you know the iiimajt^ tried to otoerve the rules and yet was- unjustly treated ? ^\. I don't take any obser\'am'ce — as a general luie I 'Siay the inmates do not get just treatment; 1 can't give any one as an example. Q. Did this too severe punishment you received so emMtter you againsft the officers luid their metliod of discipline a® to malce you vicious and create in you a, determiutition to violate the rules ? A. Xo; I can bonestlj' say I have tried to endeavor to make a record, but it is impossible. Q. It has not been impoissible for you to observe the rules for the last year and two months? A. You can keep within a cei'- tain bounds; T ^\ould as leave go out there and talk all the after- noon, because after I got a couple of reports I wouldn't care if I get a dozen more. Q. AVTiether or not these punishments which you have been subjected to, whether they created in you a spirit of rebellion or spirit of submission ? A. A« far as I can say it don't have any efl'ect either way; I try to regain my liberty. Q. On the first of last April weren't you reported for smoking in the wiater-closet ? A. I was reported for it. Q. Was it true ? A. No, sir. Q. By an inmate ofiSeer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You had a hearing ? A. The colonel gave me a hearing. Q. The report was cancelled and decided in youi- favor ? A. Yes, sir; I was a new man then; tteit was April, 1892. Q. You have been present at these hearings when charges, against inmates have been investigated ? A. I have never been; I have been in the line. Q. You have seen the boaixl as it ife organized, and usually it is oomposied of whom ? A. Colonel Bryan,; that is all; he is the only indi\'idual except it is a count-nKurtiaL Q. If ^'Wi are accuised by anyone, either an officer or an inmate, of violation of any rule, you go before Mr. Bryan and make your statement ? A. You make a statement. 1017 Q. The ajccTisei' makes his statement, and he judges between you ? A. Yee^ sir. Q. That isi as' you understand it ? A. That is the way. Q. Wasn't that dome when you were accused of talking ? A. Xo, eir; I didn't send the reports' back at all. ' Q. You understood or knew at the time that if you had requested an iiwesitigation tihat on.e would have been given jou ? A. It would have been given me. ■! Q. That you understood ? A. I understood that. Q. liuf you didn't make a request because you believed that you would not have jujsticie done? A. That' is the reasioni I didn't ask for an investigation. | Q. You had, p'evious to this, been denied? A. 1 think I have sent three or four repoirtisi back for an investigatiomi, and on my evidence they have not bteen suistaiQied; I have always been found guilty. • Q. You were only punisihed twice? A. Tlie wiay they 'pundished ■ I presume 'is by the amount) of thiesie reports'; suppose I got a yellow; I send that back; that yelloiWi is thk'ty c-entsi; and it isn't sustained; thati is one dollar .aiid thirty cents; as soon as it is three dollars you get a notice. ( Q. You were dharged' with making lead pencil marks on the wall by a citizen office!r? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Upon the occasion when you were ohargedl by the citizen otfficea* you sent back a denial of it? A. Yes, su-. Q. Yoai had a iearing on that change? A. NO'; the iieason I sent that report back, the man' that wasi in the ceU wi'tlh me — I didn't ihave any, hearing — the man tihat made the marksi on tlhe wail a^mittied it. Q. Afteni you sent bacik a denial? A. Yes, sin; I sawi it iwasi a sure thing; the man acknolwledged he made the marks on the wall. By Mr. Litdhfleld: Q. Why didn't you ask for a hearing about tihat talking? A. If I asked for it it wouldn't make any diffierence; I would get a doDar's wortlh moirie. By Mr. StanchifleM: Q. Were you charged with having dirty rags and socksi in your cupboards? A. Yesij there happemxl to' be two cupiboiards iu the room. Q. You demanded a hearing? A. Yes', sir. Q. That was decided' in your favor? A. Yosi, sir'; the man acknowledged he had it in hlis closet. 128 1018 Q. Who was your juidge? A. CSolonel Bryan; thartl was oo evi- dence; there was no ^vay of getting ajround; I believe I have gotten reports, as near as I can calculate, about sixiy dtollare worth, minor offenses, sinice I liave been here. By Dr. Smith: Q. When you dom-'fj ask for a hearing yoiu mean the evidence is against you, and you can't prove to the contrairy? A. The evi- dence isn't againist you, but you haven't ajiything that is- positive that you aire so sui^e there is no way of getting it off; .thei-e are two men in the room and this man acknotwlediges he does a thing, and I am repotrted for it it is differenti; if someone says I am talking there is nio way of getting around that. Q. You judge for yourself, jxm estimaJte your chance? A. The chance, nineteen tio one that you do nob get any decision. Q. Have you not had a hearing every time youi asked for it? A. Yes, siv; that is sysitematic; that is all arranged. Q. So far as your knowledge goes, it has been so with oalher men? A. Aa a general rule they do not get jusit) decisions; they have a hearing, if they so desire; as a genettiair inile men) do not send back their repoi'ts unless they are new men, unless they have a case they can positively get around. By Judge (jUbert: Q. Suppose they aslv for a hearing and their denial is; not susi- tained; then do tiiey receive additional marks? A^ They receive a dollar's worth more. Q. That is one iieason why? A. That is the main reason.' Daniel Leahy, being duly sworn', tastifled': Examined by Judge Grilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as toi former witnesses. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory? A. Tenth of March, 1892. I Q. Prom what place were you sent? A. From the EoohJester House of Refuge. Q. How long had you been in the house of refuge? A. I got sent there in 1889, and I got sent to the penitentiary there; and I wnas there a year and five days, and they brought mei back, and I was there two weeks, and they sent me up here. I Q. WhaJt were you sent to the house of refuge for? A. Stealinig five dollairs. 1019 Q- WhiaJt were you isenit to the ^penMiemstiias-v fom? A. Bsmpims from tiue refuge. Q. You were first sient tO' the houfie of refuge, then you escaped fixxm 'thCTe, auid you were sent to the peniiteatiary for escaping? A. Yes, sir. Q. Them you were returned to the houses of refuge? A. Yes, ear. Q. Was there atoout two weefcsi? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you were sent there ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was (the only offense you committed the sitlealing of five diOill;airis? A. Yes, sir; that is what I got sent toi the refuge for. Q. What were you sent here fon? A. Not going; td scihool down to itihe iKfuige. Q. Did you commit an offense wliich caused them to send you h,ere ? A. No, sir; I wouldn't go to school; that was all. Q. And they sent you here because you wonddn't go toi school? A. Yeis^ sir. Q. You were sent' here when? A. Eighteen huudred aud ninety- twK*; tenth of M'aircih. . , Q. Weren't you ever couTicted of any otheir offense than stealing that five dollaipsi? A. I was sient toi the refuge twice. Q. Whjait were you isent to the refuge the fiiislt time fon? A. Steailing a box of candy and twoi painsi of rubber boots. Q. How long did you stay in the hiouse of refuge that time? A. AJbout three yeans. ', Q. So you were in either the house, of refuge or penitentiary in tbie neighbonhoodi of four or five yeiars before you came herei? A. Yes, sdlr. ' ' ; Q. How old were you when you came hei-e? A. Eighteen; going on 18. Q. Skuce you have been here have you been pundished? A. Yee, sir. Q. In the bath-room? A. Yes, sir. ' . Q. How many tunesi? A. About thirty times. Q. How many was the greatest numberi of blowsi you received at lany one of those punishments? A. About' twenty or twenty- one. ' I Q. Whien was the last time you received the punisihmemt? A. About five months agoL Q. Have you been in the red siuit nearly all the time since you have beeu here? A. I was in it thitteen months the first time, and he took me out of the red suit, aud I wasi chalked in; he put me in the' bhick isuit, and I was there three months, and I went down. Q. Do you claim that the punishments you have received' in the barth-room wei'e isevere; some of them? A. Yesi, sir. ia2o Q. How many of ttem do yoiu dadm were sevieire? A. Pretty near all of theiiii were severe. Q. Have you received any other pupishment than blows from the paddle? A. Yes, sir. Q. State the first instance whe!re you received blows upon yoiur head or blows from anytMng else than the paddle? A. I, received blows froan the flist and I was knocked down and kicked in tihje face, and I got a tooth knocked out here. Q. Who knocked yon down? A. Halpih. Q. Where were you when you were knocked down? A. In the baithriTOom. • ! Q. Is the root of the tooith in your mouth? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Who kicked you? A. Mr. Sample. Q. Were you knocked down and Mcked art; the same time? A. Yes, siir. Q. One knocked' you down and the oither kicked you? A Yes; they choked me, and I hoUieired, and they kicked me in the face to make me stop hollering Q. Wei'e you on the floor ? A. Yeisi, mv. Q. How did you get on the floor ? A. They knocked me down. Q. WTiat did you say the day before they knocked you down.? A. 1 had my hands up there ; I couldh'ti stemd it. Q. How- many times had you been isitruck before you were knoc]ied down ? A. About eigM tikneiSL Q. Whereabouts did they hit you when they knocked you down? A. Hit me on the head and all over. Q. Leave any mark ? A. Yes; I had a big black eye when, I ciijiie out, two big Imnps on my hetid. Q. Any marks upon your back ? A. Yes, sir; a mark here where they paddled ine. Q. Blood run ? A. No, sir. Q. Blood run from your mouth where they kicked you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Who wais there at that time ? A. Mr. Sample, Mr. Halpin and Mr. Brockway. Q. How much did you weigh at that time ? A. I don't know ; I never got weighed in here. Q. About how much ? A. I couldn't tell you ; when I came here T weighed 103 pounds Q. How tall were you theni ? A. I don't know. Q. Is that all you have to slay in reference to thajb pun^ishiment ? A. Yea, sir. Q. What other sevei-e punishment did you receive ? A. Pretty near every time I went down there. Q. Were you punisihed in such a manner (there were bruises left upon your person ? A, Yesi, sir. 1031 Q. Whaffc wene you struck with, -Hieii ? A. Filst. Q. "Wihepe.? A. In the ftuqe, and head, and all over. Q. By whom ? A. By Mr. Broickway. Q. Leave marks upon yonr face ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wha,t kind ? A. Black eye. Q. What had you been saying tO' him when he struck you ? A 1 turned my head around. Q. Was he paddling you at the time ? A. Yes^ sir. ; Q. Then he sibruck you with his fis* ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you cry wheal he was paddling you ? A. I hoUered. Q. Beg of him to stop ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Priomise to do better ? A. Yes, sir. •Q. "V^lien you promised to do better didn't he stop ? A. No, sir. Q. Kept right on ? A. Yes, sir; as soon as I turned my head around he punched me in my mouth. Q. You said in the eye ? A. He punched me in the mouth and all over. , I Q. How many times did he strike you on that occasion with hi^ fist ? A. Thi'ee times. , Q. How maaiy times with the paddle on your back ? A. Six times. Q, Were you strung up at that time ? A. 'No, sir. Q. Were you strung up at any time ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. How many times were you sitrung up ? A. Two times'. Q. So your feet didn't rest on the floor ? A. Xes, sir; put the handcuffs on. me and put a rope thi^ugh the handcufte. Q. How many times did he strike you with it ? A. About nine- teen the first tihie. Q. Strike you anywhere else except on the back ? A. Yes, sir; on the head and all over. . Q. Did he ^sttrike you any before you were strung up? A. Yes. sir. Q. Why did he string you up ? A. Because I couldn't stand ; I fell down, Q. How many blows had you received before you feM. down ? A. Eight. Q. I am refeiTing to the first O'ocasion yqu were strung up ? ' A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you struck with the fist or kiclced before you werfe sit:run)g up ? A. Yeis, sir; he struck me and said, " Stand up there," and I told him I couldn't stand up; then: he put the hand- cuffs ou and strung me up. Q. Who helped string you up? A. Mr. La^senby and Mr. Sample. 'Q. After you were strung up what was done? A. '^They pad- dled me. 1022 Q. Wene yooi stk-iicik over the head, on the faoe? A. A'cs, sir; I commenced! to holler amd he struck me over the fajcg A\'it'h the strap. Q. AATiat was the condition of your face when you left the baith- room tlhat day? A. All bruised up. Q. Were you bleeding from the face? A. Yes; my noise was bleeding. Q. Waia yotur back bleeding? A. No, sir. Q. The .seoomd time j'ou were strung up, etaite the particularisi in reference to that? A. He spanked me, and hit me three or four times over the head with the strap, and gave me about fourteen or fifteen rarpisi, and let lue down and asiked me If I would behave myself, and I told him. yes. Q. Didn't he commience punishing you befoi'e he stlrunig you up? A. Yes, sir. Q. At tihat time didn't you fall down on the floor' againi? A. I kept turning my head around and taking my handsi off the win- dow; he said: "Keep yoTir hands up there;" and I wouldn't d6 it; I oouldn'ti put my hands up there, and then he ^ttunig me up. (>. That time you didn't get on the flooir? A. No', sir. ' By Mr. Litciifleld: (i Did he lift you off your feet? A. Lifted me off tlie feet. Q. Couldn't you touch your tops to the floor? A. \No, sir. Q. Sure of that? A. Yes, .«ir. Q. How was it the first time; were yon lifted off your feet llie first time? A. I couldn't touch the floor. Q. How long ^\el■e yon kept up the second time that way? A. He kept me up there long enough id give me eighteen or nine- teen rajis. (.i. Did it hurt your wrist any? A. Yes, sir; there were big marl^s on me. Q. Marks there now? A. No, sir. Q. Did the men who were pieisent hold yo^ up at. all, take the weight off our hands? A. No; Sample caught me by the throat to keep me from hollering. Q. (Presenting.) Wac< this the paddle you were paddled with? A. It was one like that. (i- About the same thing as that? A. Yes, sir. Q. It was I not any larger or any smaller? A. No, sii\ By Judge Gilbert: Q. Did you receive any other punishments that you olaim were severe? A. No; not so sev»e. Q. Have you stated all that you desire to state in referenioe, to j'ourself ? A. Yes; I would like to ask hiortv long have I Igot to 1023 Bitay here; fellows cotnue here and imve got two yeaim; and ihey, tell me I hla,ve to Stay until I am 21; the rest of*themidlo.ne two yeans and went home. * Q. Are your parents liAdng? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where do they live? A. Brockpo^rt. (i. Hare yoiu written to them? X. Yes; I wrote Avhen I was in the black suit, abo^it three months ago. Ml-. Hoppe.— He is senteniced until lie is 21. It is under the recent law which enables the directors of the induHtrial school to sentence rcfi-actory prisoners to the reformatorry. Judge G-ilbei't. — You have a case where a, boy whd steals five dollars is sent to prilsttn until he is 21 years of age? Mr. Hoppie. — So it appears. Mr. Litchfield. — The board of managers has no power toi parole Mm? ' Mr. Hoppe. — No, sir; I think he cmx be retrarned to the refuge. By Jud'ge Gilberti: Q. Whien were you pmnished the laet time? A. Four or fl^e monithiS ago; I was in the redl ^suit the first time, then he! put; me in tJie black suit; about a. month before he put me in tihe black , I was do'wn in the bath-room. Q. For five months you haven't been punished at all ? A. Ntk, sir. Q. Has your recoood been pretty good during the first months ? A. Noi, slir. ' Q. You could have done better, could you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What is your employment ? A. I am a tinsmith in the night time, and I work in the tailor shop in the day time. Q. What offense are you generally accused of; what rules one you usually charged with violating ? A. Fighting and chalked in now; I am ooi the gallery now; chalked in Sunday night for stealing a lieutenanit's hat and running downstairs with it. Q. Inteniding to keep it ? A. No, sir. Q. Or were you playing a trick on somebody ? A. I took it and stuck it on my head and run downstairs with it; when the lieu- tenant Came I threw it downsitairs on, the floor. Q. It was a blue hat; they are in th,e high grade ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You waait one end of you, at least, dresised in high grade clothes, wanted a blue ca^i) ? A. Yesi, sir. ' Q. You haven't any trouble in performing your task, hatve you ? A. No', Slir. By Dr. Smith: Q. You understand the rules; you know when you broke these rules ? A. Yea, sir. 1024 . Q. Do jaa scream and make a good deal of noitee in your cell ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do tLat pui^sely ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Accustomed to swearing at anybody passine- by you amid use bad languiage genenally ? A. No, sir. ii. Don't you ever ? A. Once in a while. Q. You know that is against the- rules ? A. Yes, sir. ■ Ml'. Stamehfield.^ — Since Mr. Bixjckway retired he has passed most of Ms time in ttie seclusion ceUsi. Q. Have you been coiiflned in the seclusion cells ? A. Yes; I just got out the other day; I was in fom' weeks. Q. AMiat were you put in there for ? A. I forgot now what it was. Q. Were you chained ? A. l^o, sir.' Q. Have you ever been chained? A. Yes; I was down to- the solitaiy chained to the door. (i. Recently ? A. Thej' put me up on the rest cure cell, and I w as hollering up tlicre and they took me down t\^'ice while I wa)s in there four weeks. (i. When was it you wei-e put in (he solitary and chained to the df'or; since this investigation, commenced ? A. Yes, sir, ii. You haven't been punished since the investigiavtion confr, meuiced, exfejit by being chained to the door of the iSolitary 1\ A. Yes, sir. I Q. ^A'hat wt'H- you screiioning for, and hollering for ? A. The fellows hollered down, at me, and I would holler back at ihem. ii- You ne^er were chained in the solitary ? A. Yes; chained to the door. | (i- I mean cliained to the rings in the wall or corner ? A Once; when I was fighting wdth the major, Dougherty. <^ You had a fight with him ? A. Yes; he chained me down with one hand on a bed. ■ Q. He chained you down ? A. Mr. Sample and Mr. Lazenby. Q. How long did they keep you chained there ? A. From I'^tuixlay until Monday. Q. Then you promised to behave yourself ? A. They brought me do^n in the bath-room and spanked me and let me go. Q. Did you promise to be a good boy then, ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchflela: Q. How long ago was that ? A. Last January. Q. TSTaen you wei'e shut in the solitaries could you see around in there ? A. No, sir; it -nas dark. Q. TMiich side were you on, tx)ward the window or away from the window ? A. The side away from the window. 1025 Q. That is what made it so dark ? A. Yes; it im dark down there a,U the time; before this investigation, committee came h«'e they had all the window® dosed; woodieni windows over thiem; anid it made it dark down there, eund now rtluey have them ' open, and they chain -the f ellowiS up thieiDe instead of paddlijig. Q. Before that it was customary to keep the windows shut? A. Yes, islir. i ' Q. Were you often in the eolita^ before the Inveaitigiatlon begam? A: Once. Q. That; tune the windows w«ire kept shut? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Foe Imdw long; the whole time yoiu were there? A. The whole timje I was there. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you know what you were sent here far from the house of refuge? A. I didn't go to school. • By Mr. Litchfleldl: Q. Befoire you letft the housi^i of refuge did you sa,y anything naughty or bad to the superintendent? A. No, sir. Q. Were you not sent here for saucing the superintendent? A. No, sin; he isaiid I would have to go to school; I feiaid I couldn't; I didn't know nothing labout school; I came from the penitentiary; he says, " You will have to;" I Says, " I ain/t going to go to school." Q. For saying that he sent you here? A. Yes, sSir. Q. You were really sent here for answering him back? A. Yes^ sir. Q. How old -were you when you were sent to the house of refuge first? A. Twelve; I was sent by Judge King in 1887. Q. Is that the time you stole the five dollairs? A. No. Q. When were you sentenced tar stealing five dollars? A. In 1889. . ' By Mr. Stanichfielcl;: Q. Were you sent from Rochestea- to the house of refuge for stealing five dollars? A. I was sent from Buffalo. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you perform your task? A. Yes, sin; I am in the lowest class now ; I used to have some trouble. John Van Deusen, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge GUlbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to the former wJtnesisesi: 129 1026 Q. Where were you sent from? A. Fonda. Q. When? A. Eighteen hundred aaid ndneity; somiewheneis along albouiti thM tdime. Q. What month? A. February twenty-fiiist. , , , Q. What were you sent here for? A. Burglary. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. How old were you at tihe time? A. Sixteen at the time. Q. Any one conyioted witli you? A. No, sir. Q. What was it that you stole? A. Somje cigairta amd other situff, candy. Q. Were you ever convicted of any oifltense before ^tihat? A. Yes, sir; twice before that. Q.'What were the oififenisies you oommitltled befoa'e? A. Taking come money of my mother, and the other time takingi some ^iff out of thJe house thati didn't belong to m'e. Q. How' much money did you take from your motiher? A. Fifty cents. Q. How long were you punisihed for tihat? A. I wasi locked up in the jail for about sixty days. Q. You say you took some thingsi out of the houise, wOiai were those? A. That was my father's watoh, and I wore it on my vest. Q. Were youi sent up for that? A. I was sent to :the houise of refuge for that. Q. How long were you confined in the house of i-efage? A. .\ year and four months. Q. How long were you out of the house of refuge before you committed this burglary and were sent here? A. I couldn^t exactly remember how long it was. Q. About how long? A. Somewheres near three years'. Q. You must have been quite small when you took the fifty cents? I A. Only a little tad. j Q. You are not much above tha* now? A. I wiU be 21 on the fifth of February, coining. " Q. Have you stated all the offenses you committed' before you came here? A. I commitited one move; I got sent to the -iVlbany penitentiaiy for sixty days. i Q. What was that fotr? A. Getting intoxicated; my mother catched me and senitl me down there for! sixty diaya Q. Have you given ub a list of aJl youri oiffienisesi? A. Asiffar m I can remember. Q. Do yon mean to say you cam't remember all your convictions? A. 'No, sir. Q. So many you can't remember? A. So many T can't remembea-. Q. Have you been punished since you have been here? A. Yes, sir. 1027 Q. AVh'at for? A. Eeports aamd obhev offenses. Q. Reports fop wliat? A. Loiaiiig marlis and for tesk, and iising imipaiotpe'p lanigiuage in the line coming in to oflficews' and inmates. Q. Do you oladim' yom were pumislliedj severely atl any time? A. Yes, SOT. Q. Hoiw mamy times have you been pimmsih.edi? A. I couldn't rememljer it is so many timiesi; I think aboutl seventeen. Q. Paddledi? A. YeB, sdxi; once or twice let gio. Q. Were you eveip puniahjed in any oithier way Itofli iieceiving blows upon your back? A. No, sir; no oiher. way; always was talten in tliere and' paddled. Q. Ever eitiruck over ttie head? A. Yeisi, sir; severai times acroisis here. Q. What for? A. I would sftanid up there the way the supem- intemdent tela us to stand up theire, and if you turn your head towaa^d him he wouldj hit you across the faioe with the sttrap* and if you di'dn't k^p your head tioi the right; if you kept/ your head all right you wouldn't get! so many, but. if you turned your head that way he would give it to you. Q. Evec struck you haird enough to make a miairk ota your face? A. It was all cut open here. | Q. So that youir face bled? A. Yes, sn*; you cam see acrossi the top of the nose a scar. Q. You say you were, struck across the, face so it out your nose and made a scar? A. Yes, sir. By Dr. Stni*hl: , Q. How long ago was that? A. A year and a half ',agol; I haven't been punished for the last eighteen miowthsi. Q. That looks like an obsolete cut; I can't see it? A, I havie other scars here om my back from' the pa-ddle. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. "Wfere you 'ever strung up? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. How mamy meui did it talce to stWng you i up? A. Just took one; hoisted me up like that; they put the hamdcuffis on me. ' Q. Who was present? A. Mr. Sample; I couldh't rememlber who the other officer was. ' ' Q Why did they string you up, couldn't they, hold you except bv stringing you up? A. The paddling is, it hurts you so when he hit you such blows, when the strap strikes the flesh; I don't know whether it has pin-holes; he draws tha* a,way amd that sucka rightl|in your flesh and' when he pulls itt away itipuils the skin Tight off. 1028 Q. When the stmp is wet whem they come to draw it away it draws the skin with, it? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Did they ever break the skin upon your back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Make your back ;bleed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Blood run down your back? A. Yes, sir. Q. Down 3-our legs? A. Yes, sir. Q. On more than ome occasion? A. I ,should say on five or s^ix times. Q. When did you notice the blood; how soon after? A. After I got takem out of the room. Q. Immediately? A. Yes, sir; when I got out in the other room. Q. Blood on your clothes? A. Yes, sir. Q. Efow taU are you? A. I couldn't 'say; about four feet and something. . Q. How much do you weigh? A. Ninety. , Q. Were you Strang up so your feet wouldn't touch the flooir? A. Wouldn't touch the floor in no way. Q. How long a time were you up in that way? A. Three or four minutes. Q. Ever ^Strang up more than once? A. No, sir; just once. Q. How many blows did you receive at that time? A. Six. Q. vT\Tio were present at the time? A. Superintendent and Mr. Sample. ' Q. Anyone else? A. I couldn't tell; there was another officer there T couldn't tell. Q. Do you say you still have scars on your back? A. Yes, sir; I have scare on my back. Q. From the paddle? A. Ye;s, sir. Q. (Presentihg same.) Look at that and see if you think that is the one that was used upon you? A. Yes, sir; that is the one. Q. That can go around you twice? A. I can tell it by the handle, because I made the handle myself; the order came out in the pii)e-shop, and I turned it out. Q. Did you nail the ^sit.rap to it? A. No, sir; just made the handle and sent it in and the next day it was used. Q. How long ago did you turn that handle? A. Aboui two years ago. Q. You had been paddled before ,that? A.' They broke the other handle. Q. You had been paddled with the old paddle up to the time the handle broke? A. Yes, sir. Q. You madf! a new handle for a new paddle? A. Yes, sir. Q. What kind of wood did you make that handle from? A. That is made out of hickory; I never was paddled with that (refer- 1029 ring to the old paddle); I will take that back; that is the one I was paddled with. Q. Which hurt the nwsit? A. The old. Q. Why was it the worst? A. When it is wet it curls right up and when it strikes your flesh it draws hack; he has it behind your back like that curled up in his fist and when he gets ready he thr'owls it out and lelp the whole length of it sti'ike you. Q. Wlien he was paddling you, did he strike the blows with force; werti they heavy blows? A. The first twoi blows he don't. Q. The first two blows are light ? A. Yes.; and the rest are hot. Q. Do they increase in force as they increase in number? A. Yes, sir. Q. So the lajst blow is the severest blow of all? A. Yes, sir. Q. During the time the blows are, administered does he stop to ask if you will behave yourself? A. He n^ver did me. Q. Did you during the time ha was administering the blows promise if he would stop you wOUld behave yourself? A. Yes, sir. Q. Would that make any difference in reference to the num- ber of blow;S or the force of the blows? A. Yes, sir; it did. Q. He would stop ? A. Yes, sir; sometimes when I would come in the room- T would fall on my knees and aisk hint to let me go; "Get over there, get over there; I haven't time to waste on, you; I will make mince-meat of you." Q. 1 asked you a moment ago if, while he was admiaisterlnig the blows, if you begged, or promised that you would do better he would then desist from beating you ? A. Yes, slii'. Q. So that the number of blows depended very najuch upon whether the person being paddled would agree ixy behave himself ? A. Yes, sir; if you told hiin you will behave yourself he will let jou go on three, sometimes fow. Q. He will stop as soon, as you promise ? A. No, sir. Q. Whether he continues the blows after you promised ? A. ,Yes, sir; he does sometimes. Q. The physical treatment isn't complete yet upon a mere promise of behaving yoursielf ? A. No, sir. .Q. You say there are scars upon your person caused by the blows you received ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Will you show your person to Dr. Smith ? A. Yes, adr. (Witness exhibits his back to Dr. Smith.) By Dr. Sruith: i Q. When were you punished last ? A. Eighteen months. Dr Smith. There is a very small spot there that looks as though there had been a little blister; very slight; probaibly a little blisiter. lOBO By Judge Grilbert: Q. Did you shaw your back to anyone after you had been pun- isihed ? A. No, sir. , Q. How did you know yaa had that noark on your back; howi do you know you have it now ? A. By looking at it. Q. Can you look around there ? A. Yes, sir; on one side half way; the minute you come out of the bath-room the fellows will look back and see if you haire any marks. Q. Did you do that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you find blood upon your clothes' ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What had you been doing when you received those severe punishments ? A. Gretting reports. Q. What for ? A. When you don't do your task; when you get, four banners, a labor report, you get taken, down to the bath-room and get strapped; that is one thing I got paddled for. Q. Before you had been punished hadn't you been stealing some- thing or fighting some of the inmates ? A. Never fought a man since I have been here. , Q. Did you fight some of the officers ? A. Never had no oppor- tunity; don't wish to. Q. Were your reports all labor reports ? A. Labor reportsi and other reports; if you get a yeUow report he takes you down, too; one yellow report will take you down. By Dr. Smith: Q. You got reports for bad conduct, breaking the rules that you knew about ? A. Yes, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. What do you mean by " banner ?" A. Eeports; we call them baumers. Q. What emjployment have you been engaged in principally ? A. Several places; I have been in the pipe shop, hollow-ware, , gymnasium, trade school, cane shop ; that is as far as I have got Q. You attend school ? A. Yes. Q. How do you get along there ? A. I get along all right thera Q. Don't get any mai'ks there ? A. I do, sometimes. Q. Gret any marks for not performing your task ? A. Yes; scvmetimes I tail in school and T get a chocolate report; beloiw) fifty, it is two marks; above fifty, one mark. Q. Do you say that you have given no other cause or occasion for the severe punishments which you claim you have received eMepfi that you have failed in your ta^ at times, failed in getting your lessons, etc., in school, and some little thing like that ? A. Yes, sir. ' * 1051 Q. Do you say you never have been guilty of any vicioius act ? ■ A. No, 'Sir. Q. WMck should cause them or the officers to inflict the severe piinishmqat you have referred to^ ? A. No, sir; I never did. Q. I think you stated how many blows wws. the most you received at one time ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You say you have been paddled in all seventeen thnm ? A. Yes, isir; in ail. / Q. Y^ou haven't been paddled during the last few months ? ' A. ISo, sir; I have been laying in about four montlis. Q. What do you mean by that ? A. No work; idle; had no work for four months. By Mi<. LitcMeld: Q. You say in your letter you were licked so the blood ran down your leg; is that so ? A. Yes. Q. Do you mean, under oath, that was reaUy so, the Mood ran down your leg ? A. Yes, sir; the minute I came out of the room I saw it. • i Q. Where did you see it ? A. Eunuing right down on my leg first, and then dropped on my pants and on the floor. ■ Q. Didn't drop outside of your pants ? A. No; it was inside my pants; nobody didn't see it much. Q.. Nobody saw it but yourself ? A. That is all. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. What do you know, if anything, in reference to ot^jBrsi being severe'ly punish^ ? A. I know of one man; I don't know whether he got killed by the superintendent or not, or starved by the isuperintendent; his name was John King. Q. What was his consecutive 'mimber? A. T couldn't tell you that. Q. What do you know in reference to his being severely pun- ished ? A. He worked in the quarters; he must have done some- thing crooked and he was taken down and put in the solitary and locked there about four days; was taken to the bath-room and punished; then he was put back in there again, and about -six or seven days after that he was brought back again and punished again; put back the same way again; that continued about four times, and I was in the gymnasium at the time he came out; the super- intendent let him out to see if he couldn't get along- ; he wasi over to the gymnasium a little over a month and a half and was 'taken back to the hospital and died. 1032 Q. How do you know ? A. He told me. Q. How do you know lie was taJien to the bath-rooin and pun- ished ? A. I locked in 621. Q. This fellow was locked where ? A. I could see him come right by there as he came up from the solitary, and I could see clear over on the extension, half the extension. Q. You saw him taken down toward the bath-room ? A. Yesi. Q, And saw him taken back ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you see any bruises or anything upon him ? A. No, sir; I neAer saw no bruisiea Q. You don't know he was really punished, except by what he siaid ? A. That is all. Q. Strike that all out back ais far as* where he saysi he was stai'ved to death.; what do you know -about otliers being severely punish.ed ? A. I have seen men go down there and get banged over the face and come out, face black aud blue. Q. Can you name any of them ? A. No, sir; I couldn't. Q. Do you know anything about the iamate, Murray ? A. I don't know anything about him. Q. ]>id you see inmates coming from the bath-i'oom. bleeding? A. Yeis, si!ri; in the face and eye and' niose. Q. Can you name oooie of them? A. I don't know .((heir name. Q. Can you tell about how many you have seen coming froim the directian of thei bath-roolm with, their nose bleeding? A. I could say eight or ten. Q. You oan'ti name them? A. No, sir. Q. You can't give their consecutive numbensi? A. No, sir. By Dr. SmitiL: I Q. You doii't knotw they went in the bath-room.? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Did yoiu see them go in? A. Yeis, isir; wihen I got chalked in I could see tliem,; they would leave me untU the laist one. Q. Did you see them^ go into the bath-room? A. Yes, sir; I used to stand outside the door, and sa^' them' as quick ais I came oultl; olialk them in like that; the soiperintendent would say: "What is his number, 3356?" or sometlhlng like that; "Bring him in here; I ain't goit time; come on; take doiwn your pantsi; get oiver there and hands up aside the wall ; " and after he had given me tlha«ee or four cracks I would say : " Let me go this time now ; " he would say: " Can't waste much time on you; " give me a couple moie and send mie out. Q. How is it you haven't; been punished in eighteen niontto? A. Good bdhavior; I have obeyed the rules. Q. You didn't before? A. No, sir. loss Q. m is polseible to stay here eighteen months!, anid not get puni- isked at all? A. I haive only nine weekis ajid foui' diaysi yet to do and thera my time is up. By Mr. Litdhfleld: Q. When you; have been reported have you aeiied for an investi- gation or have you always been reported truthfully? A. I have asked several times -foir an inivesitigationi. ' Q. You have always had investigation when you asked for it? A. Yes, sir. Q. You got justice as a rule? A. No, sir; the officei' would stand' here and the colonel would ask me a few questionsi; " How is this; do you deseipve thia report?" I would say no^ mr; he would ask the oflacer and he would say as far as I see he desei-ves the report; and I give it to him and he would make som^ other words, and the colonel would say: ''All right, go. out." Q. By the officer you mean the witness against you? A. Yes, sir. Q. You were confronted with the witness? A. Yes,, sir. Q. You always were confrouted with the witnesis against you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Always had' a trial when you asiked for it? A. Yesi, sir; never got refused. ' Q. This was colonel who? A. Colonel Bryau and Lieutenant-' Colonel Tate. Q. la Colonel Bryan an Inmate offioea*? A. No; citizen offlcei". By Judge Gilbert : Q. All these punishments were received in the flr.sit few months after you caone here? A. Yes, sir, Q. FoT the last eighteen months vou haven't been punished at all? A. No', sir. Q. You state for the reason you have observed the rule? A. Yes. Q. You think the punolshmen't you received has refomned you some? A. Yesi, sir; has some. By Dr. Smith: Q. You think one can get along without punishment? A. There is one thing a man cau't get along in this place;, that isi, if thej- would stop! the inmates from reporting; let a ciltjizen! officer have the place and there would be no reporting; if yoU' show your authority and say you are going to see the sivpeirihtiendent, the inmate will give you a first-class report. 130 1054 Q. Isn't it liecause he knows a great deal more than a citizen ? A. No, sir; I say a convict; I don't -call this a reformatory; I call it a State priteon, as far as my knowledge., Q. That don't prove anything againist an inmate officer ? A|. A con.vict isn't allowed to report you, but that is to help the superintendent along, to keep the peace; the superintendent makes those mlea i Q. You think the inmate officer is more severe, does injustice ? A Yes, sir; than a citizen oflflcer; I was in the came shop — no^ the pipe shop; there was an officer on the stand; I was under hi^ charge for eight or nine months; I never re'ceived a report off of him while I was there; he was a citizen officer. Q. What did you attribute it to; to his neglect of duty ? A. I couldn't say; I always oibeyed' him; he never catched me in any; wrong dealing while I was there in the shop. Q. Perhaps you were a little too smart for him ? A. When I see a man, treating me good I treat him the same. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Do you claim tte inmate officers make false reportsi ? A. Sometimeis they do. '; Q. Any more than citizen officers ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Li*ohfield: " Q. Do the citizen officers make false reports, too ? A. No, sir; I never heard any since I have been here. ^ Q. Citizen officers do not moke false reports ? A. No, sir. Q. You think inmate officers do ? A Yes, sir. Q. Many false reports ? A. I know I have got several of them, and have sent them ha.dk and got them cancelled. : Q. Did you get all the false reports cancelled that you had ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then you had a fair trial every time ? A. Yes, sir; between the hoih of us. • Q. According to your experience you found the colonel was a good, fair judge ? A. Yea, sir; good enough for me; I don't find no fault with the colonel here; he always treats me good. Q. It is his honesit endeavor to see justice done between you and the accuser ? A. Yes, sir; always. Q. As far as you know he has proved the same with other prisoners ? A. Yes, sir. ! ■James J. Shortle, being duly sworn, testified : Examfflned by Judge Gilbert: The same stlaltememit was made to this wittnass as to fommier witniesaeB: , loss Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. ■April, 1891. Q. Wliat for ? A. Stealing a watch, in the Union League Olub. Q. Sent from New York ? A. Yes, sir. . ' Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Were yop. at any time punished while you were- in' the relormatoiy ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many timesi have you been punisiied ? A. I can't remember ihow many tiujes exactly. Q. About how many times ? A. Nine times, I believe. Q. How many were the greatest number of blowB received at one time ? A. Nineteen. Q. Any of the punishments that you claim were very severe ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many of those nine punishments do you claim were exceedingly severe ? , A, All except one. Q. In what respect were, they severe ? A. The last time I was dovra, tlhewe I got a blow in jthe eye; I can't see out of it yet; I can siee a little & out of it, but I can't reaid' or amytihin'g witih it. Q. Were you ever istrung up? A. Only the other day in solitary. Q. Yoiu never were strung up in the bath-room? A. No, sir.. Q. Why were you strung up in the soilitary; what did yahy ?" A. Yes, sir. Q. 'Wliat do yo)i mean by that ? A. Just a joke; just kidding ' another man. Q. To whom \\as it addressed ? A. Forty hundred and fifty, Bellinger. i Q. Were Bellinger and you in the same cell together ? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever been, ? A. No, sir. Q. Had you ever been at any point in the reformatory together? A. He worked in the same shop. ' Q. ''Baby: I am vei'y sorry I disappointed you to-night, but I got hit on the tender part -Monday;'" you wrote that? A, A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you mean by that ? A. Remind him of the spanking I got. Q. What disappointment was that to him ? A. I was going to write him out some songs, i Q. You didn't refer your privates had been injured in the spanked? A. No; he knew I was chalked in. Q. Was this fellow called " Baby " among you fellows ? A. No, sir. Q. Why did you call' him " Ba.by ?" A. 1 was only ju^t kidding him; that is all. ; Q. Did you room at one time with a man named Brinkman ? A. Yea, sir. ,— ' Q. Weren't you confronted by him before the court of inquiry, where each of you were accused, the one of playing the part of a 1041 woman one nigbt and th.e other the next ? A. No, sir; I was taken up there and I denied it, and they put me in solitary and I admitted it; they said he said so; afterwards I said ye®, it was true. Q. When you wrote that note didn't you mean your bottom was so sore you couldn't hold intercourse, and that was the reason Tou were sorry you disappointed him that night ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you write songs for the boys ? A. I was going to write some for him. i Q. Were you in the habit of doing that ? A. Anybody ask me I write them for him. Q. He knew that ? A. I suppose he did, or he wo\ildn't ask me. Q. He had written you before ? A. He asked me. Q. In the shop to write a song for him ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You, in reply to that, wrote that note ? A. Yes, 'sir. Q. Had you agreed in the shop you would write a song for him that night ? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. When were you to give him the song ? A. The next morning. Q. Instead of giving him the song you gave him that note ? A. He never got it. ■Q. You wrote it ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Couldn't you have written a song as weU as you could have written that note? A. I suppose so; yes. , , Q. You weren't slo sore in that tender spot but what you could vrnte thie note? A. I didn't incline to do it; thait ilsi all. Q. Tliat tender part was in such a comditiofli^ you didn't feel musioai? A. No, sir. , Adjourned to Wednesday, Deoember 13, 1893, 9 a. m WedniesdSiy, December 13, 1893, 9 a. m. The committee met pursuant to ad'joummeiKt. PtresefDit — Same as before. CJharieis Johnson,, being duly sworn, testifledi as^ follow® : Examined by Judge Grilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to' former witnesises. ' ' Q Your name isi what? A. Charles Johnson] I go by here. q'. What name did you go by before you came here? A. My right name is James Johnson. Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York. 1 131 1042 Q. For what; offense? A. Grand larceny. Q. Did you plead gnilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. \Miiarti "was yoiir age at tlie time you were sent here? A Eighteeai. Q. When; were yon sent here? A. July 9, 1890. Q. Have yon been. pnniAed since yon have been here? A Yea, sir. Q. Do you daim you have been severely punished? A. Yes, sir. Q. In what way do you claim yon hajve been seviei"ely punished? A. Taken down in the bath-room, will be twoi yp'ar.'^ ago next month, for some trouble I had in the foundry, and I was put down in the ^litary. Q. Before going to the bath-room how long were yon kei>l in the solitary? A. Pouir days. Q. How were you kept there? A. Chained dtown by my right hand. Q. To what? A. To a ring in the floor. Q. So you couldn't sta,nd up? A. No, sir; couldn't stand up. Q. You say you were there four daysi? A. Ye8y| sir. Q. During that foxir daysi wais the chain talcen off of your wrist' A. No, edr. \ Q. Did the physician ^isit you during that time? A. No, sir. Q. What were you fed' on? A. Bread and water; that is all I had. Q. From' the solitary where \\ ere you takeni? A. To the bath- room. Q. What occnirred there? A. I was punished by Lieutenant- Colonel Halpin, and I was also kicked' in my face by principal keeper now. Sample. Q. Who wei'e in the bath-room at the time? A. Mr. Brockway and Lieutenant-Oolonel Halpin and Principal Keeper Sample. Q. Were there any others there? A. No, sir. , Q. Werei you chained up or strung up? A. I -naH afteT tliey got through kicking me and punching me; they strung me up to the window. Q. Where did they strike you? A. Striick me over here with the strap. Q. Before they stning you up yon say they puncihed you — where did they punch you? A. Punched me in the face when they had me up and after they got me down Mr. Sample kicked a hole over my eye. Q. You can show that mark tO' Dr. Smith. (Witness exhibits the mark to Dr. Smith.) Dr. Smith. — A slight mark there; not a deep' one. Q. You Slay you were kicked' when you were dowm? A. Yes, sir. 1043 Q. How came you to be dbwni? A. Ttey giot, me down in tike comer and cotamenced to puncih m,e. Q. Blood run' from your face? A. Yes; gusfeed fromi my liead. Q. After that wliat did they do? A. They stirunig me up tb the wipdow, Mr. Brockway did, and Mr. Sample got the rope around my wrists Q. Bppe or handoiiffls? A. The handcuffs, and the rope was attached to the handcuffs; and Mr. Sample, while he drew me up, Mr. BTOCicway hit me with the strap. Q. How many hlOwis did you i-eoeire? A. I don't remember. Q. Did our bacit bleed? A. No, sir; it "hurt' me though for a week afteir; I cotuldn't lay on my back. Q. Before they struck yoUi, what did then- tell you to do? A. Told me to go oivier to the wall. Q. Did you go over there? A. I walked over there, and I tm^ned aa'ound, and when I tutrned around they commenced tb punch me. ,Q. Is that all yon done? , A. That was all I done. Q. Think a little, are you sure that is all you done? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you offer to strike back? A. No, sir; I didn't offer to strike back. Q. Nor kick? A. No, sir. Q. Did they tell you to take down your plants;? A. Mr.; (Brock- way told me to go over there, and I \\ent to gO over there, and turned around; then he jumped along me and cotamenoed to punch me. Q. Didn't you say something to: them? A. No, sir-; I didn't say nothing; didn't say a word. Q. Why dad you turn around? A. I don't know; T Was| pretty weU stirred up; I was weak down in the solitary and pretty weU stirred up. Q. "W^at do you mean! by being pretty well stirred' up? A. I was kind of — I don't know. Q. Weren't you excited? A. Yes. Q. Didn't you exhibit that excitement by talking and strik- ing at the inmiateis? A. No, 'sdr; I didn't strike at nobody down there at all. Q. Who first struck you? A. The lieutenant-colonel firet struck me. ' Q. Where did he first hit you? A. Up here on the side of the face. Q. With what? A. With his fist. Q. Strike you in the face more than once? A. Yes, sir; he struck me more than once. Q. When he struck you the first time why didn't you turn around? ,A. I couldn't because he had hold of my arm, and when I turned around! Mir. Sample had hold of me. 1044 Q. Is thaut all you have to say in reference to that piunishioent? A. That is all I haye to say. • Q. When you went out of the bath-room were you able to walk? A. Yes, sir; I was able to walk; when they goti through tlu-.y put me in a little place and let me wash my face, and Mr. Brockwuy said he would kill me if I didn't brace up and do better. Q. What trouble wad it you goti intoi? A. I had some trouble with a prisoner, he was a lieutenant in the military. Q. Didn^t you assault him ? A. No, sir; I didn't assaidt him, Q. What trouble did you have with him ? A. I had a knifei, small knife, and he didn't asli me for it in a manly way, and I wouldn't give it to him, and he told me to get my hat and coat on and go up to the stand, and when I gx>t to the stand he sent for the colonel and the colonel came in there and he asked the lieutenant about it, and the lieutenant told him some things, right and some things wasn't, and when 1 told him it wasn't right, I cut across him and told him that wasn't so, and the colonel told me to keep still, and I wouldn't keep still, and the colonel took hold of me and tried to throw me down, and we had a clinch there, and four or five of them got on me and the prisoner jumped off the stand and took an iron bar and hit me in the leg with it, after tliey had me down, and then they run me in. Q. Were you placed in the solitary in consequence of that fight you had ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you ever been comicted of any offense before you were sent to the reformatory ? A. No, sir; I never was in prison before. Q. When you came out of the bath-room upon that occasion was there anything thrown o\er your head ? A. Yes, sir; a coat was thrown over my head. Q. Who put the coat over your head ? A. Mr. Sample. Q. What for ? A. To keep the inmates in the hall from seeing me, what had occurred to me. Q. Was your face then bleeding ? A. My face was bleeding and head was bleeding and face all swelled out. Q. T^^len you were strung up were you sittmding on the floor, did they allow you to stand on the floor ? A. My feet just touched the floor; my toes. Q. For how long a time were you strung up ? A. I don't know ; I was strung up until they got through. Q. Were you unconscious when they got through with you ? A. 'No, sir. Q. Still you don't know how many blows were striuck ?• A. No, sir. Q. You can't now ' give us a correct idea of the length, of time you were strung up ? A. No, sir. _ i. lu-. ^- 1045 Q. Do you claim you were severely punished at any other time ? A. No, sir. . ( Q. That is the only severe pums'hment you have ever received ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever been paddled more than once ? A. I was down there once before, in 1890, about two monthsi after I came up here; Mr. Brockway only give me two and let me go. Q. Did you at that time px'omise him you would do better ? A. Ye^ sir. ' Q. Did he let you off a® soon as you made that promise ? A. He asked me if I was ever paddled, and I told him no; he says^ " Gro over there and I will let you know how it feels;" I got over there and he gave me two and let me off. Q. When was it you were strung up ? A. I was etrunig up in January-, 1892; will be two years ago next month. Q. Have you been in the bath-room since ? A. jSTo, sir. Q. You have no complaint to make with reference to the treat- ment which you have received since that time, have you ? A. So far as I was in the blue suit in July, I think I was unjustly reduced. , Q. No complaint unless it is for being unjustly marked or reduced ? A. That is aU. Q. Have you anything further to say in reference to the manner in which you halve been treated here in the reformatory ? A. I think in that case I was treated cruelly. ■Q. Have you been in the solitary at any other time ? A. Yesi, , sir; I have been in there three times. Q. When were you in th^ solitary the seopnd time? A. The second time I was in there two years ago. ■ ; Q. You were in the solitary once before that? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long were youi in' the solitary the first time? A. Nine days. Q. Were you chained? A. Ye®, sir; all the time. Q. How were you chained that time? A. Handtouffe around one Wirist. ' Q. And chained to tlie ring in the corner? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you kept there during the entire ninie days? A. Yes, sir. Q. Weren't you let up at all during that time? A. No, sir; couldn't get up. i Q.Did the physician visit you during that whole time? A. No, sir; he didH''t. Q. What was your food at that time? A. Bread' and water. Q. You say you had been im the solitary a thmj time, when was that? A. I was' in there in the latter part of last July. ^ Q. Holw long were you in the solitary that time? A. I went iu Tuesday and came ou'ti IVidlay. 1046 Q. Chained? A. No, sir; I wasn't chained. Q. What had you been doing that cansed them, to siend yon there in July? A. I was put there unjust, and I wasi reduced to the red suit unjujst; about two dozen men in the foundry claiin thej' had me on the list^ 'Some list they wei-e getting up to refuse to work; it was claimed my name was on it, and the colonel came in and invesitigated, and I told him. I knew nothing aibout it ; he said my name was on it, and he says: " It don't look like your writing, but we will haye to hold yoh amy how ; " sol they put me down in the solitary. i Q. You claim you didn't sign your name? A. I didn't isign my name. Q. Do yon claim you didn't authorize anybody to sdgai it? A. I didn't authorize anybody at all. Q. Wasn't there an investigation before the officer? A. The colonel didn't inTestigate it; if he investigated it right I don't think I vTOuld have went down in the red suit. Q. Weren't you brought before the colonel to make a state- ment? A. I was talien out of the foundry Tuesday night and put down in tihe solitan', and I asked the officer to see the colonel, and the next day colonel came down there and I told Mm how it was; I had nothing to do with at all; he says: "Your name is on there and it don't look like your writing, but your name is on there anyhow;" and he didn't say no more; I stayed down there until FWday and. I came up and they put me on the resfrcure gallery 654; I stayed there about a week before they put me in the red suit, and in seven or eight days they put me in the red suit. Q. When were you restored to the citizeni's suit, the black suit? A. The first of December. Q. HJaa^e you been able always to perform your task? A. Yes, sir. Q. Whicih tier of cell® were you in? A. In the dungeon. Q. In the three-oornenedl cells? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you in the rear tier or the front tier? A. I was in, the first cell as fou go ini the doofr oin) tlhis side. Q. Was the blind closed over the window? A. It was pretty dark when I was there, daa'k all the time I was' down there. Q. Were the blinds closed over the windows? A. When the officer came doiwn to give me something to eat he opened them up. Q. They were closed with the exception of the time they were giving you something to eat? A. Yes, sir. Q. How was it when you were in there four days ? A. The samp thing; they would open them up ^\'hen they came there to give the men something to esit and then close them up. 1047 Q. Upon the occasion when they threw the coat over yoiiip head where did they take you to ? A. To the solitary. Q. How long did you remain in the solitary that time ? A. I remained there a week. Q. Were you chained ? A. Yes, sir; I was chained by the right hand. Q. Did the physician visit you during that time ? A. The hospital steward did. Q. What did he do for you ? A. Sewed up my eye. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You were in the solitary for a week ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And chain.ed aU that time ? A. I was let up two or three days before I came out. Q. You were: only chained about half the time ? A. Half the" time. Q. Chained night and day or only in the daytime ? A. Night and day when I first went down. Q. To the sliding bar ? A. To the ring in, the floor. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You say the steward sewed up the gash over your eye ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many ■stitches did he pnt in, do you know ? A. No. Q. Put anything over the wound ? A. He sewed it up and put something there; I don't know what it was. Q. How many times did he dress it ? A. He came down in the afternoon as soon as, I got taken down there, cam,e down, he and Mr. Sample, with a lamp, and he went back to the hospital and got some cotton and some things and scAved my eye. Q. Do you know hdw long the wound was that you received ? A. No,, sir. Q. What, if anything, do you know in relation to others being severely punished ? A. I know other men, were doAvn in the bath-room and got pretty well beat up. Q. Can yon mention any of them ? A. One man went down there, he got beat pretty bad, but he is transferred now. Q. What is his name ? A. Sullivan. Q. What was his consecutive number ? A. Forty-six hundred and eighty-three. Q. What did you see about him indicating he had been severely used ?\ A. He went down for not doing his work, and when he came out in the foundry again he showed me his back, and Ms back was all fiery red. 1048 Q. Any wounds upon Ms head or face ? A. No, sir. Q. All you observed in reference to him was his back looked red ? A. His back was red. Q. Can you call to mind any other instance ? A. I have heard a good many say — Q. Anything you have seeff yourself ? A. No, sir. Q. What kind of a knife was it you had upon the occasion when you haxi the controversy with the colonel ? A. A little piece of a knife, the blade wasn't an inch long; I got it in the sand pile; there was no work in the foundry and I found this little knife in there, all rusty. Q. You knew that it was against the rules for an inmate to carry a knife ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How lon^ had you been carrying this knife ? A. I just got it in the sand-pUe and laid it on the bench right there, and the officer on the stand seen it, and he wanted it, and I wouldn't give it to him. Q. Where was the colonel at this time ? A. The colonel hadn't came in yet. Q. Hadn't you and the officer commenced the affray before the colonel came in ? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that you were fighting when the colonel came in ? A. W^e weren^t fighting, we were quarreling. Q. Had he clinched you ? A. I didn't clinch the lieutenant at all. Q. Hadn't you clinched the one that asked you for the knif^, or struck at him ? A. I didn't strike at nobody. Q. Weren't you clinched when the officer came in ? A. No; the only man 1 was clinched with was the colonel. Q. Didn't you get the colonel down, upon the ground ? A. No, sir; I didn't get him down at all. Q. I mean the lieutenant-colonel ? A. The lieutenantrcolonel was in the bath-room. \ Q. Was it the colonel or lieufenant-colonel that you had the afEray with in the foimdry ? A. The colonel. Q. Colonel Bryan ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Which struck first, you or the colonel, out in the foundry ? A. Nobody struck, only he had got hold of me, he grabbed me; I says to the officer on the stand, " I will get you for that," and shook my hands, and when I shook my hand the colonel grabbed me around the waist like that. Q. Did eitlier of you go down ? A. Not then; we got to wrestling there, anid, of conrse, I had a Uttie the best of it, and the colonel went up against a pile of boards there. 1049 Q. As you were getting a little the best of the colonel didn't some of the othjers turn in an.d help the colonel ? A. Yes. Q. They finally got you down ? A. Yes. Q. That is the time you got the bruise upon the limb ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Didn't you attempt to use that Imif e upon, anyone ? A. No; I gave it to the colonel before. Q. Didn't you resist the officers in the bath-room and have a rough and tumble fight there ? A. No, sir. Q. They trying to get you down or control you and you trying to get away from thean ? A. No, sir; I wasn't trying to get away fiom them; I first went down in the bath-room and asked Mr. Brockway to let me explain fnyself, and he says', "No; go over there," and I turned around and the lieutenant-colonel got hold of ray arm. Q. During the four days between the time you had the affray in the foundry and the i;i.me wlien Mr, Brockway came into the bath-room hadn't you seen Mr. Brockway ? A. No, sir; I hadnt seen bim at all. Q. Had any of the officers seen you to talk with you about it ? A. Noi sir. Q. Or find out what you claimed about it ? A. No, sir. Q. So the only opportunity you had had to make your state- ment to Mr. Brockway or the officer was when you were taken into the bath-room ? A. Yesi Q. You asked the privilege of doiag it ? A. Yes; and he said no. Q. This controversy was with the colonel ? A. Yes. Q. He, as I understood it, had made his statement to Brock- way,' but yofu hadn't made yours ? A. Yes,' sir; that was it. Q. you uuiderstood these inmates whose names appeared upon that paper were jntendilmg toi act together in reference to their getting out or rebelling against the rules and ofllcers of the insti- tution ? A. Yes, sir. Q. If you had yourself put your name thei-e it would have been for sohie such purpose as that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you admit that you knew all about it, and that you oonsemted to join them ? A. I didn't know aU about it and I didn't consent to join them, but I had heard a little of it in the foundry. Q. Had you heard about it before the officers got that paper ? A Y^pis sir "'Q. Hadn't you also heard that your name was on the paper with the rest ? A. No, sir; I didn't hear that at all. Q. Before the officer came? A. I hadn't heard anything at all about it. 132 1050 Q. You had heard there was such a scheme on foot ? A. That owcuirred the last otf July; I heard that while I was lui the blue suit. i Q. Hadn't you also heat'd that your name was spoken of in eonnectioin with it? A. No. Q. Auid your name was upom that paper? A. I hadn't heard that even. , Q. You say you didn't know your name was on the paper until after the paper had gotten in' the hands of the officer? A. I didn't know it at all. Q. Oan you name some whose namesi were upon the paper? A. The man in the foundry, the colonel asked him' did' I isay any- ,thin.g to him about it, and he eiaid no. Q. I aslted you if yon can. give us the names of some ofP those whose names were upon the paper? A. 'No, mr. Q. Do you know Gregory? A. Yes. Q. And O'Toole and Aliim? A. Yesi Q. Didn't you know their names were on the paper? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't they claim you were one of tlie ring leaders? A. That is what they todd the colonel; the colonel came downi in the soli- tary and fold me — Q. Weren't you taken in a room before the colonel with some of the others, and didn't they make their statementis to the colonel, and didn't you also make voiir statement? A. No, sir; I was taJcen down in the solitary. ' By Dr. Smith: Q. Did they ask yoii to join it? A. Noi, aiir; I heard different men talking aibout it. Q. "V^Tiat did tihej' say to you about it? A. I heard them talking in line; the first man I heard i^^ax anything about it was O'Toole; I think he waj^ talking to some other red-suit!. man; at that time I A^ as in the blaick suit and I stood behind them. By Judge Gilbert: Q. You heard them talking among themselvea, or did they talk to you? A. They were talldng among thenuselves. Q. Did they know you heard what they said? A. I suppose they did. Q. They spoke loud enough and they knew they were talking loud enough so you could hear? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you know it was your duty when you heard that they were getting up a scheme, to notify or infonn the officers? A. I would have reported, if I hadn't went down from the blue suit to the black suit; I was reduced from the blue suit. 1051 Q. Wliy were you reduced) from' tite blue suit to tlh.e black suit? A. 1 went two moiiths with an imperfect record. Q. You were reduced jiist abomt tbat time from the blue suit to the black suit? A. Tlvat was about a week before, week or two before. i Q. Had. yoTX heard anything about this scheme or miitiny before you were reduced from the blue grade? A. Yes, sir; heard about it. Q. .When yoni were in tihe blue smit why didn/t you iufotrm the officer when you knew it was your duty to do soi? A. I didn't pay no attenition] to it. , Q. You kne^v it was an impor'tant matter? A. I wiU tell you'; I didn't thiiU'k it was worth while for me to report it to the colonel ; he didn't take no ettock in what I said anyliow; he didn't believe me; he wouldn't take my word; he knows I haJd a pretty hard . record here, and I was looldng at them points; I knew he wouldm't, take my word at all. Q. You had a pretty bad record here before that? A. Yes. Q. You mean a bad record in, the reformiaitoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. How did you get in The blue suit if you had a bad record ? A. I was getting aiomg pretty good when I came out from the bath-room; I was im the red suit in Jauuary until July; then I got in the black suit, and in March, 1893, 1 got in the blue suit By Dr. Smith : Q. You haven't been to tibue bath^irioom. in two years? A. Yes, isair. Q. You find you oajn get along withouiti getttinig pumilshjed? A. Yels^ sir. Q. Dou't find it very difficult, do you? A. I don't flud it very difficult if the inmialtieisi only leave me alone and not connect me with thkiigBi I don'it kmiow anything abouifc. Q. WhJalt inmates dio you refer to? A. This July, aiboiut the st!rike ttoey had me in the founidiry; I had nothing at aU to do with it; I was birought into it and I didn't have noi chance to explain myseilif lanid I wiasi puJt in! the red suit; and put on. the rest ewe gal- lery for a month! amd kept on bread and water andi liash. Q. You cajn geiti along and anyone ^oould without punishment here? A. Yesi, sllr; I can get aloii^g. By Mp. Litchfleld : Q. You have not been) in; the aolitiariteisi fior a lotiilg time, have you? A. The laeit tikne I was down there was in July. 1052 By Judige Gilbertl : Q. Wlhat is yoiur buisataeBB? A. Molding. Q. Have jmi beea in tlhe foiunidry ever simce yoiu ihiave been here? A. Yes, sir. ' Q. YoQ liavtita't aii|y trotuible in pesrfbinmfltng' your task? A. No, sir. Q. How long was it before you recovefred from ittie bniise you reoeivedi upon tihisi occasion? A. I don't know; my toadl hurtsi me thisire now once ia a while; my eyes mn tlo waiter quittle frequently ; my eyes is weaiker. By Mir. liteMeJd : Q. Wtenj you liave beem anarked; for diodmg otae tihinig or anotihjer do you ever ask fop an investigajtion? A. WhMi do you mean? Q. Wbien yoiu get a iieport doi you. a^k fori an iiLvestigiation ? A. If I goit) a report I sent i* back. Q. They always give you a heajriing? A. Yes^ sdir. Q. You sometimes get tihie report camcieiledi? A. Veay seldom. Q. You bave somteitlimjesi got it caincelled? A. Wheni \^e offlceiis make a misteke I got it cancelled; otheri times I sentl tke report back ; if I got a report tor talking and I don't deBierve tihe report and I send it back tlie colonel looks toi the officer wiio gave it to me; but he won't take my word at all. Q. WL,oi do you go to wilien you send it baick? A. Send the report back to tlie superintendemtt amidi lie giveSl it to the colonel for invesfcigatioin. Q. That is Colonel Bryan ? A. Yes. Q. Doesn't the colonel try to be square arid honest with, the men ? A. I don't think he tries to be square and honest with' me, other colored men here, too, say The same thing. By Judge Grilberfc: Q. You think be dilsicriininates against the colored people? A Yes^ sir; against me. i By Mr. Litchfleld: Q. You do not lueiair the -nMte men complaitti bei is not square with them ? A. He don't sfem to lUie a colored man, any bow. Q. The wbite men do not complain against Mr. Bryan and tbey think be is square, do tbey not ? A. I don't know about them. Q. You baven't beard them complain ? A. I never beard them complain; every time be investigated my report I genefraUy got another one witb it 1053 By Judge Gilbert: Q. Before you liad the atlray your standing was pretty good, wasn't it ? A. I had failed in school. Q. You tried to get along before you got this punishment ? A. I tried to get along since. Q. Didn't you try to get along before ? A. I did try to get along, but I got a report right straight along. Q. Do yon think you are a better man since you received the punishment in the bath-room; that is, you have a better disposd,- ti'on^ yo,u are more inclined to do right since you received that punishment than you Mere before ? A. I think I am better, but I don't think that did me any good, though. Q. How do you think that improvement has been brought about ? A. I tbink it has been brought about by keeping me here. Q. Have the officers. treated you any better or differently since;, that is, in a more kindly way since you were punished so. severely than they did before ? A. They treated rae roughly, they always treated me good. Q. With the exception of that one time ? A. Yes, sir. FraD.k Finch, being duly sworn, testified: Exaimlned by Judge Gilbert: The siame statement wasi made to this witness as to former witnesises. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. !March, 1891. Q. Wliere were you sent from ? A. Watertown. Q. What f or ? A. Burglary, T think; I won't say for sure. Q. You don't know exactly what you were indicted for ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you plead guilty to the indictment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your age at the time .? A. Seventeen. Q. What had been your occupation before ? A. Eailroadihg. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any crime before ? A. No, sir. Q. "V^Tiat was it you were charged with stealing ? A. Breaking into a baggage car. Q. And taking what ? A. We were drinking, and the railroad officer caught us in, Q. You broke into a car ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you attempting to take anything ? A. No, sir; we were driinMag; we •were geittiiiig out! of the weti; it' was raining that night. Q. Broke into the car for the purpose of obtaining shelter ? A. Yes, sir. 1054 Q. Since yon liave Tjeen^ in tlie ireftMimatoiy have you been jiunished? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times have yoii been punished in tlie bath-ixwrn? A. I foiuld not say how many times. Q. Can yon tell when yon were firet pnnished? A. No, sir. Q. About what time? A. 1 A\-as here about five monthis vilicn I "was punished first. Q. Do yoxi remember how many blows you' received the fii'st idme? A. I think it was six. Q. Can yon tell how many times you have been taken to the bath-room? A. About foni-teen times and let go t-s\ice. Q. 80 you ha^•e been pnnished about tA\elve timesi? A. Yet<, sir. Q. How many blows was the most you evm' Tccei^i'd at one punisfhment? A. Twelva *' ' ■ Q. Did yon evw receiA'e any blows on any other part of your ])od,v than on your back? A. No. sir. Q. Never received any over your head? A. No, «ir. Q. Any across your face? A. No, sir. Q. Did you write a letter to the committee? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you statte in that letter truthfully the way you had; been treated? A. Yes, sir. '/ Q. (Presenting.) Ts that your handwriting'? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Sure? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can yoi read it? (Witness readsl the letteit".) (}. Now, you say you never was struck over the head'? .\. Kid- neys it isays there. Q. Were you, at any time, struck on the mouth, across the mouth? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. With what? A. With his hand. Q. By whom? A. The superintendent. Q. Were you ever struck at any oilier time by_ anything else except tlp.e paddle? A. He struck! me across the momtih with hisi hand. Q. Did he, at that time, knock you down? A. No, sir; I was standing in the corner by the radiator. Q. You stated in your letter at one time he gave you thirtly- frvvo rajps with the paddle; is that tlrue? A. Twelve or fifteen. Q. Do yon mean he gave you thirty-two blows all toigether at the different puniishments? A. He gave me more than that. (>. You state in your letter he gave you thirty- two' ajt one time; what do yon say to that; you state in your letter he gave you thirty -two blows across the kidneys, is that true? A. He never gave me thirty-two cracks across the kidneys. Q. When yon wrote that ^\hat do you mean? A. It must have been a mistake; tJwelve to fifteen cracks. 1055 Q. ►Yooi also sfbate in your letter ibat he knocked you down? A. I was standimg in the comer when be Mt me; he conldin't knock me down. By Mr. Litchfldd: Q. He did not knock you dioiwni? A. Xo^ sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. When he had you down did he hit you with anything; did he strike you when you were down? A. Noi, sir; he did not; he told ipe if I eTer came down^ again he would spanlt me for every report I got after that date; if I got reports enough after that date and kept comilng down there he would spank me until he killed nie. Q. When wa^ the last time you were spanked or paddled? A. January. Q. Lasit January? A. Yesi,, sir. Q. Haye you ever, at amy time, been in the hospittd ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When were you senit to the hoispital? A. November, I think it waisi; a year ago. j v Q. What were you in the hospital for? A. I went up there right after I was spaiuked, and I was all swelled upi Q. How lomg before you went to the hospital were you spaaked the laist time? A. Abonit three weeks. Q. Were there any bruises upon you at that time ? A. Ye®, sir ; T have a mark on my hand. Q. Were there bruises upon you when you ^eie taken to the hospital ? A. No; only the one I had on my hip; I ha.ve it on my hip now. Q. What were you taken to the hospital for ? A. I was all swelled np with somethino'; I don't know what it was. Q. Swelled up where ? A. Legs and ankles and body was all swelled up. Q. Had you been in any such condition as that before you were punished ? A. Winter before last I was. Q. You were in that condition the year before ? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that whatever trouble existed it was not a n,ew thing ? A. No, sir. Q. You went there to be treated for something that had existed before yon were paddled at all ? A. I was spanked before this thing happened; I never got it outside. Q. Did you hare any such trouble before you were spanked ? A. No, sir; not here. Q. This difficulty, whatever it was, did it exist before you were punished ? A. No, sir; after I was punished. 10B6 ;■ Q. How long were you in the hospital ? A. Three months. Q. What did the physician say was the trouble ? A. He didn't tell me what was the matter with me. Q. Who doctored you ? A. Dr. Wey. Q. You were in the hospital for three months ? A. Yes, sirj winter before last. Q. Was the last spanldng that you received in January, 1892, or January, 1893 ? A. I do not remember what year it was in. Q. Was it last January or January of the year before ? A Last January. Q. Eighteen hundred and ninety-three ? A. Yes, sir. Q. "V^Tiat grade were you in at the time you were sent to the. hospital ? A. Red suit. , Q. Have you been punished since you came out of the hospital ? A. No, sir; I have not; I have been in the black suit for a year. Q. "N^Tiat suit were you in when you were sent to the hospital ? A. Eed suit. Q. How soon after you came out of the hospital were you put in the black suit ? A. I M-as put in the black suit up in the hospital. , Q. And have remained in the black suit ever since ? A. Yes^ sir. Q. fan you state to the committee, give them any. idea or infoi-tnation with reference to what you were tal^en to the hospital foi- ? A. T couldn't know, and the doctor never told me what was the matter with me when he had me there. Q. At what time were there any sores upon your back ? A. When that scar all healed up on my hip. Q. You say there is a scar there yet ? A. Yes, sir. Q. WUl you show it to Dr. Smith ? A. Yes, sir. (The witness exhibitsi his hip to the- doctor.) Q. Had you always been in good health before ? A: Yes, sir. Q. Had you ever had a physician before you came here ? A No, sir. Dr. Smith. — There is a scar there about two inches long, I should think. Q. How was that scar made ? A. With the strap. Q. What had you been doinsr for which you were punished ? A. Eeports. Q. Reports for what? A. Crooked note they said I had written'. Q. ^Tiat do you mean by that ? A. Writing a note to the man locked next door to me. Q. What was that note ? A. Asking him for his knife; I asked Offenoock to hand me Hind's knife, the feUow that locked next door. 1057 Q. You passed things in ttat way to each, other ? A. Fo, sir; w€ ain't allowed to. Q. Ydu knew it was against the rulesi? A. Yes, aiir. Q. What did you want to da with the knife? A. Out my finger nails. , ; Q. Did you get the knife? A. No, sir-; he tokjk the note and took it to the flow and gave it tol the colonel. Q. Did you know, at the time, it was againist the rules toi write a notet A. Yes, mr. Q. You eiay the only charge that was made agains* you, for which you received' that punishinient, was the writimg of a raoite to one of the inmjates requesting him to let you take his knife for the purpose of paring your nails? A. Yes, sSr. Q. When did that oiocuir? A. Last fall some time; I dotn't rememibeu just "What month; it was in 1892. Q. Were yoiu ever' in the isolitary? A. Np, siir. Q. Never was chained ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Lijtdhfield: Q. How many times in all have yon beetn taken to the bath- room to be spaiudied? A. Twelve or fifteen tuneft Q. A're yotu siiure of tha'JD? A. Yes, sir. Q. Your record, I believe, clainus you have been spanked only four times, yet you claim you have been spanked twelve or fifteen times; do you mainitaini it? A. Yes, sir. Q. Casa you give any of the daites upon which youi have been spanked? A. No, sir; I can't. By Dr.. SmithI: Q. HoiW late was the last one? A. In JaJnraairy, I tlhink. Q. They all ooourred before Januaay? A. Yea, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You daim you were spanked the twenty-fifth of Jamiairy last:? A. Yes, sir. i . . , x j ' Q And then oni the thiortietli of last January; is that :so; do you mean last January or a yeair before liiat? A. 'He says I was iq the holspital last Jaaiuairy. . -^ -. ^ Q This letter of yours says you were taken to the bath-room la^t' January on the twenty-fifth of the mcm\h and me thirtieth of the month- "He had me down again and spaaiked me agam, and two weeks after that I was taken to the hospital; '' that must have been tbe middle of February you were taken to the hospital. 133 1058 Mr. Hoppe. — He is all riglit, except iti was in 1892 he was spanked. Q. Do you not mean a yeaa' ago last Jannairy? A. Mnisit be a yeai' ago last January according to the way they have got it there. Q. Then your memory i^ notl very g^ood? A. I remember I got spanked in Jaamajry. Q. Last Jamnairy? A. Must have been' a year ago| the way he has it down there. Q. How is your own memory, when were you spanked last? A. In Jamuairy. Q. Last January? A. Yes, siir. Q. Sure of that? A. Yes, sir; I am siui-e I was spanked in Jannary; I was spanked twice and admonished a month after. By Dr. Smith: , Q. How was that scar prodnoed upon you? A. Down in the batli-room. Q. What time, which spanking? A. In Jannary it wias. Q. This last January? A. The last time I was spanked. Q. You didn't have any wound there before? A. Noi, sir. Q. Did you have a running sore there? A. No; it wasn't mn- ninig; just a out, and they put a plaster on and it healed up. Q. Healed iip at once? A. It didn't heal up at otnce. Q. Did it discharge matter? A. 'No; there was a soab came over and it healed up gradually. Dr. Smith. — I don't think that cicatrix could be produced in that way by a mere cut' that healed up. By Mr. litdhfield: Q. Did you have a- btodl when you wentti tio thel b'ath^Poloni? A. No, sir; I didn't have a scratch before I camie here. By Judfee Gilbeirt : Q. Juisiti before you went initio the hJoispiytlaJli lasiti t&ne you claim you were punlifihed'? A. Yesi, silp, Q. Was) ithat tihei tfime when you claim you received the wound where it left the scar which van. now haivel? A. Yes, sir. Q. Aflie you sure of thiait? A. Yesi, isSt. Q. You say you were in the holspitJal in January, 1893 ? A. I am pretty sure. Q. The recoird' showis thatl you were ita. the hospital in January, 1893; it 'ailSo shlows yon wetnrti itnltioi the hlospital in Decemiber, 1892; noWj hoiw lonfe vcere yiou iki the hospital? A. Three months the fiTist time; thlree miotnths and a half the second time. 1059 Q. Thiiis was the lastt timie yoiu were ini itihie hoapiitjal, in January, 1893? A. Ym, eip. Q. Are yora sure tblajti yoiu didn/t goi ilniboi the hospital in Decem- ber, 1892, alad! ooinitinuiel in ijhie toispifca!!! miM Janu'ao^y or F*r;iary, 1893 ? A. I don't nememibier. Q. Yoiu didn't keep the daJtieei? A. No, sir; I did not. .. Q. Yo(u do m>y pioisiti-raly it wiasi juBit fbefore that yon received the pujndjsiinient? A. Yes, Bir. Q. Yon alsioi say poisiiivieily yora reoeiVedi punliiahments; ,that is, was, paddled upon as many as twelve different occaisioms? A. Yes, stiir. Q. What were those pu|niishmentlsi for mainly? A. Eeports. Q. In comnection with what? A. Talking. ; Q. I asked yon what were the chapges principally that were made agaimstti yon and yon said! taJUdlng ; weren't yon also adcui^d of insulting the officers? A. Yesi, isir; once or twice I was; Mr. Currier, an iimmiaite officer that was here, grabbed me by the throat and nndetrtook to chloke me, amd I woiuldnft tiake it. Q. Weren't you allso chaa:;geid with having used' profane lan- guage? A. Ijvas. Q. Can you state what the laiaguaige wias that was used? A. 'No, sir. ■ . ~ , Q. Have yon ever heard the offioensi use profane languagei to the inm'atels? A. Yes, siir; I have heand iiranate offi'cers. Q. Have you heard the isTipedntemdent use profane language tio the inlmates? A. No, sir. Q. Yon tonew itl wajs lagainsti the rnleisl oif ^the refomniatoiry for an inmate to use p.noifaine language? A. Yesj, sito. Q. Didn't yon aJisio refuse to obey onderlsi giivetai yon by the mili- tary officer? A. Yes, sir. Q. And in connection with that refusal used profane language that yon were aoouisied of? A. Yes, eic.' Q.'Was the word yon used in eonneCtion with the refusal to perflonm properly the militairy dnty the word " danmn? " A. Yes, sir. Q. Had ymi heard the officers of the instittition upon different occasions use that .same word to the inmates ? A. Yes, sir; I have. I Q. Did you hear them connect with that word any other pro- fane language ? A. I have heard them. Q. Give the language ? A. I have heard them say, " God damn you, get in ranks." Q. Can yon name the person that used that language? A. Denny Leap. I, . Q. What official position did he hold ? A. Second lientenant 1060 Q. He was an inmate officer ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Not a citizen officer ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you reponrtl him? A. No, sir. Q. Have you heard citizen officers swear ? A. No, sir; I haven't i Q. Only the iimiate officers ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You never heard the supeiintendent swear ? A. No, sir. Maurice Mansfield, being duly sworn, testified: Exa mi ned by Judge G-Ubert: The same statement was made to this witness as to former "wdtnesses. Q. "What is your full name ? A. Maurice W. Mansfield. Q. Since you have been in the reformatory what has been prin- cipally your employment ? A. I have worked in the printing office entirely. Q. From what place were you sent ? A. Albany. Q. For what offense ? A. Forgery. Q. Forging what ? A. Check. Q. What amount ? A. Thirteen dollars. ' Q. Against whom ? A. I can't tell the lady's name; the name was John, 1). Parsons, of the firm of Weed & Parsons. Q. Since you have been in the reformatory have you been pun- ished ? A. Yesi, sir. , Q. For what ? A. A great many thinga Q. You have been punished in the bath-room ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you claim severely punished ? Al Not brutally. Q. Anything more than being struck upon the back with th,e paddle ? A. No, sir. Q. Skin broken ? A. No, sir; it was not. Q. While in the bath-room were yon struck with anything else beside the sitrap ? A No, sir. Q. Were you, at one time, whUe in the bath-room, choked' ? A. As he took me over to take down my pants Mr. Sample caught me by the coUar, and as I twisted away from him he choked me; I don't know whether it was intentional or not, but I was choked somewhat when I was going across the rodm to take down my clothes. I Q. What language was used ? A. As I went in the superin- tendent asked me — held up the report and asked me what I meant by that; I told him; he, says, "What do you mean by this;" T said I wasn't guilty of that offense; he said, "This isn't the Concord reformatory;" he aUuded in that way to the fajct I had been at Concord; it wasn't the Concord reformatory, by a damn sight I 1061 Q. Wliat furtheT, if anything, was said ? A. He said notMng more then; after he had struck me a few times he as.ked me what I would do; then. I told him I would try to do as weU as I could, and he gave me two or three more and said he didn't want me to try, he wanted me to do it; 1 said, "Yes, I would do it;" he says, " If you wiU do what is right I wiU try to treat you kindly and let you go." Q. What was the charge made against you ? A. He didn't read the charge through, but the report I got was for fraud in putting up my task. Q. Was it true ? A. It was not. Q. Had yon ever been convicted of any offense before ? A. I have, before coming here. Q. Confined in priisoin? A. In thie Ctonooird reformatory only. Q. Whaiti was the offenisie of which you had been convicted before? A. Receiving sitdem propeirty and dfeposdnig of it. Q. Was that true? A. Yes, sir. / Q. Haid youi ever beeni coomvicted of any other offense befoire? A. I never had been tried for amy other offiense; I had been arrested for an offense, but my people disponed of it!; I wasn*t tried or convicted. i >. Q. But yon were gtulty of it? A.' Yes; siir. Q. Before you, canre to thie reformatoiry what had been mainly yoTir emp'loym.ent? A. For the last eight yeams I Wave been a printer. Q. When do you say yoiu were isenit to the refoimiatory? A. In May, 1892. T Q. Dd yoiU: remember the date of thle first spanking? A. I remember it beoauise it was a year to a day after I came hlene. Q. Eighteen hutnidred and ninety-thr^e? A. Eiighiteeni hundred . and \mnety-tlhree. ' Q. Was that the only thne yoiu were punislhiedi? . A. That was the oinly timie I was taken to the bath-room. Q. What was the effect of that punishment ujpolm you? A. I was sore and lame tiwoi or three days. Q. Oonfimed to your.oeU? A. I was left in^ my cell for four days. ^ Q. Why? A. The superinitendent told me afterwards because he didln't imtend I should go to wsolrk a.gain) ini that place; it was by miktjake I was let oiut of my room and told to go|'to) work, and told me he wantedl to talk with me before I went toi work. Q. Why did he isiay he wanted to talk vTith you) before youi vront to work? A. He ajsked me: "I would like to know what is the state of your consicafenice, hbW you feel about going to work?" he 1062 asked me tihat two or three days after I went to work; wheji he found ouit I had been to workJ Q. Did he say anything further? A. Nothing further; if I behaved mySelf he would help me all he could. Q. HJave you had any difficulty since? A. Nothing except ti-iflin^ offenses; I haive been reported once or twice for talking ajid thing's of that kind, but northing of any consequence. ' Q. Since that time you have 'been able to get along very well with the officers? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever in the hospital? A. Noi, sir. Q. Did you' know a man named Munuy? A. Yes, sir. i Q. Did he work with you in youi' department!? A. I wiasi fore- man of the department, and! he wotrked under ma Q. You were fareman of the printing department? A. Yes^ edr. Q. For hoWi long a time had you been for'emani of that depart ment ? A. It was Ike flrst week, a yeai* agr> last Septembei'. Q. As foreman of that depfirtaiein't^ -nhat are imataly youii' dutieisi? A They were at that time — I am not now — they were at that time to receive the ordeins for pnintingi aaid) eixecuite them. Q. See thjey were pi"opeiiy executed? A. Yes, sir; get out the Weekly Simmiaiy and the p'intjng that was done, the general run of work of the inistitution. Q. Substantially wlhat we would undterstand by the team. managing editor? A. No; I wasn't editor; I didn't writie any- thing for the Sunuuary; simply the mechanical work, setting up the tj-pe. Q. Seeing it was properly dome? A. Yes, sir Q. "^Tiati part of the work waiS Murray employed at? A. He was learning the straight composition, as it is called, learning to set type at the case. Q. Wbat, if anything, do you kno^w about Murray being pun- ished? A. He was punished the flrist time, Ij tiMnk, fot bedmg in wlhat was called the sodomy deal last, February; after that hJe was punished two or three times for receiving reparts. Q. WhaA, if anything, do .you know in reference to the severity of those punififlimenits'? A. We know what, the repolrtis before — think, of ooraiisie, there was some excuse for his talking, and that the punishment was severe. Q. VVTiat did von siee indicating ihat he had been .severely or brutally punished? A. I don't think there was' anything; I saw his back after he came back from the bath-room the last time; I didn't see it at any other time, but he complained of its smarting so he didn't wish to work, and the monitor on the stand said he would have to work if he Avas in Hie shop; I told him he could go in the bath-room adjoining the priating office and take 1063 a Kath, and I looked through, the door at him and mw his back; hc! had several black and blue spots on his back, and around his hips, a mark across his .face where he had been struck with the strap. ' By Mr. Litchfield: Q. How did it appear ? A. Simply an outline of a strap, a black and blue line across, his face. Q. Across his right cheek ? A. I couldn't say whether the right or left cheek; it was one of them; 1 think it was his right cheek; I won't be sure. Q. Describe the marks on his back; how high up did they reach? A. They were nearly all of them from the hip bone down on the fleshy part of his^ bottom. Q. Not high up on the back ? A. No. Q. On the right ^de, principally ? A. Principally on the right side. Q. Anything thajt looked like a cut or sore there ? A. The skin was broken and blood oozing through; it was like an abrasion, a bnuise; it waah't a cut; the blood was not streaming, but the skin was broken and the blodd oozing through. Q. About how large were the wounds ? A. The black and blue spot was as big as my two hands. Q. Sis inches each way ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was blood oozing from all, that surface ? A. Only part of it; the part where the end of the strap had come with the mosit force the skin was broken, an abrasion as if it had been parted, and the blood was oozing through. Q. In your judgment the damage was done by the end of the strap ? A. Yes, sir; the distinct mark of the end of the strap; the round mark could be seen very plainly; a little, curving mark. Q. At the '/time you were spanked you say in your letter you were charged . with larceny, and that ^ou were spanked for that charge; is that correct ? A. It was marked larceny on the report, , putting up task; taking somebody else's work and putting my name over it for credit, but on my report it was fraud in putting up task. ! Q. You say it subsequently transpired the charge upon wMoh the punishment was given was false; how was that found out that it was false ? A. Mr. Murray, some time after we moved over in the otheri printing office, told me that if he had knownj the ciBcumstan'ce he would not have reported me for it; the cir- cumstance was brought to his attention by an inmate, Bonner, with whom I had isome trouble, and he accused me of it^ and the charge was absurd, because I told Murray at the time I could 1064 prove it if he would let some of tlie other inmates talk about it; Murray was put in there over me as foreman, and he and I had some difficulty about the work, and there was not good feeling between us, and he didn't investigate the report^ but sent it in, and the management of the institution took his word for it in preference to mine. . Q. Was there no investigation by the superior officer ? A. 1'he colonel called me up on the floor that day and asked me how it was, and I tried to explain it to him, and he told me he had| received Mr. Munray'9 sitatement, and he probably thought I was lying about it. Q. Were you confronted by him with Mr. Murray ? A. No, sir. Q. You were not brought together ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you ask to be confronted with Murray ? A. I didn't. Q. You didn't ask the colonel to confront you ? A. No. Q. Did yth& other was am imnate? A. Yes, sSir. Q. At)0ut how — I was in charge there, and he didn't do his work; Mr. Snyder was oyer me then, superiiitendent of the prouting department. ' Q. WhJaJt did yooi say tlo Mr. Snyder? A. Eepritaaaded the boy for not doing Ms work properly; he says: "I can't dof it; I don't take any interest in it;" and I reported that to Mr. Snyder; he "didn't take any interest in it;" and Mr. Snyder repoi'ted it to the superintendent, and he was pixnished foir that: Q. You were the inmate offloer at that time, a moDitor over this boy? A. Yea, isiir. Q. It was on' youa- report as an inmate offioeT* he was whipped? A. Yes, air. I By Dr. Smith: Q. Did! yon think a whipping would 'stir him, nip? A. I didn't think he would get a whipping. 1 Q. Didn't you reoom.mend he woiuld be stimed up? A. I wanted him to do hiis work; that was all. i Q. Didn't yon reoommend he, should be stirred up? A. No, sir. By Mir. Litdhfleldl: Q. Did he do his work any better after the whipping? A. I thinik he did. , - ' ' Q. Was he a bright boy naturally ? A. He is not a bright boy naturally; he is a little dull, slow, Imt he done his work ever since. Q. You think the paddling was beneficial? A. I thinli it woke hiax up and he paid more attention 1x> his business and done better. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. Do you think it is niecessary, in order to wake a man up, to blacken his eyes? A. I^o; I do not; very often they refuse tlo taJie their clothes off to be punaished, but they have to do it in the end. Q. Hare you been punished since the time you refeo? to? A. That is the only time I wasi at the bath-roOfm in that way. ^ Q. Do yoiu think, as fan as jya are concerned, thaft that kind! of treatment has a tendency to reform, to improve; yonr disposition and your manhood, etc.? A. Well, I don't know as tld.all that; it certainly made me reflect that. I was in an institution where I had to obey orderlsi, and I think I have idomidit ever^istaoe; if I didn't the consequence would be sievere; it brought me to a realiz- ing sense that I wasn^t a free man any more. 1068 Q. That tlie autliorities would not be trifledl with? A. Yes, sir. Q. WTiatever rules they made they intended they should be obeyed? A. Yes, sLr. i Q. And if the inmates violated those rules they wouldl be pun- ished? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yofu think as soon as the inmates underatood that to be the situation, and that there was no evaiding the consequenices, that it has had a beneficial effect upon the inmates? A. I have seen a numiber of men who I knoiw have been to the batlh-room who, before that, ^\'ere what we caU in tihe institution misohievoiuis and trifling, and since the time they came out olf the bath-room their progress has been considerably better; before I went the superintendent had shown me considerable leniency, and I thought he wonld oonrtinue to do it in certain ways, but he didn't; he reduced me to tIhe red suit. Q. How many blows did you receive at the time you were tlheire? A. I coiddn't swear to the nmnber; it wajsi over a dozen, and less than eighteen. Q. Diu'ing the time they were being adminietered did Mr. Erockway stop or ask if you would obey the rules or conduct your- self properly ? A. Yes, sir; he gave me eigbt or ten, and stopped and asked me how I was going to do. Q. .cVfter giving you two or three blows did he stop and say, '■ Will you obey the rules ?" A. No, sir. ' Q. Or, "Will you comply with whatever we ask;" anything of that kind ? A. No, sir. Q. l?ut continued the blows, you say, right along until be gave > on about a dozen blows ? A. He had given me nine or ten, and then he stopped. i Q. And asked if you would obey ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. What reply did you make ? A. I told him I would try as ha-rd as I oould. Q. Then he made the remark that wasn.'t what he wanted ? A. He gave me two or tbree more and stopped again' and says, "We don't want any trying now, wiU you do it." and I, of course, told him I would do it. Q. (Presenting.) Is that the paddle that was used ? A. I thinlj; it; is one of those; T think this is one. Q. Can you say anything with reference to the severity of the blows that were struck, whether the first blow was as severe as the last ? A. I think it was; of course tiiey were not light by any means', but I have been punished harder than I was here Q. You have been punished in other institutions ? A. No, sir; never in any other institution. Q. By whom ? A. At home. 1069 Q. Your own parents ? A. My father. Q. The sitrap that was used was wet ? A. I don't know. Q. When the blow was given did the leather seem to adhere to the skin, when, it was drawn from you did it hurt you or pain you? A. No. Q. Was it simply the blow that caused the pain ? A. As soon as the strap struck it came, off, it rebounded. By Mr. Litchfield : Q.What is your idea as to the difference in the force of the blows ? A. The lasit blows were more painful, because they aU came in the saooae place. Q. Were all the blows struck in the same place ? A. Within the space of my hand. Q. He didn't pick out a new spot for different blows ? A. No. Q. Ajk: you pqsitive about the n.umber of blows you received at that paddling, did you count them ? A. I did not, but I know? they were over a dozen. By Dr. Smith: Q. Do you think you could estimate the number within three or four ? A. I should say fourteen or fifteen; after he gave me nine or ten he stopped and asked me how I would do, and I said I would try; then he gave me three more, I should say, and asked me how I would do, and I told him I would do better. Q. You have been an inmate monitor ? A. Not a monitor; I have been working ail the time either on the floor or at the case. Q. You know something about the feeling in regard to inmate monitors in the institution ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are they popular, as a general thing'? A. No, sir; not at ail. Q. Why; you have been in an institution where citizens were the officers altogether ? A. There is no doubt but what an. inmate monitor has considerable advantage over those whom he is over, if he has any pensonal spite. 1 Q. Hasn't he an advantage over a citizen because he knows the tricks of the institution ? A. Yes; to that extent. Q. He is more likely, then, to be efflcient ? A. He isi more likely to know when a man is doing right or wrong. Q, Where does the evil come in ? A. I have known monitors in here who wonM accept what the inmates should give toi them, either in the way of tobacco or oither thinigs^ for tine sake of not reporting them, and if they didn't give them they would report them, and I have know monitors to vent their spite on a man and repoirt himi unjnistly. 1070 Q. is tha.t sufflcientlv frequent to be a general rule,, tliaiti tbey are easilT ppejudiced and that they exencise tihait kind! of feeling? A. Xo; that! isn't a general rule. Q. It is rare? A. It is only occasional. Q. Bnt siufficient to prejudice the inmates agaAnlsft them? A. Againsit tOie inmate monitors; I knew almost any inmate would rather see a citizen on the stand than an inmate, unless that imnate was a personal friend of his. Q. Rather because he has more libeir'ty under the citizen? A. Y«<, sir. Q. Not becaoiisie he has more julstice? A. The citizen has not the same interest m holding 'his position the inmate has, and he does not know so often when a man is doing things as an inmate might know. By Judge G-ilbert: , Q. Under which do yo^i thinic the inmate endeayotosi to obey most perfectly the rules of the refocmatkDry, under the citizen monitor oa* the inmate monitor? A. If he kiWwis the inmate monitor is not a friend of his and will report him, he will obey one as quickly as the other; if neither one has anything to do with him except to report hira for oifeiises. Q. T am t-tjiealdng generally; doi the citizen momitotis obteiin bettei' results so far as compliance with the rules are concerned on the part of the inmat(« than the results obtained by the inmate monitors? A. I think they do; yesi, sir. Q. They are mm-e \\illing to observe the miles when the;\- know there is a citizen monitor o\'er th^m than they are wheti there' is an inmate monitior over them? A. Yes, sir; I think they are. By Dr. Smith: (i. You have been in an insiti'tutiom whei'i- this physical treatr uient never w^as practiced? A. They had no physical treatment at Concord. Q. How do the two metho'ds com.paire, in your' estimaition; you hare seen both sides? A. I naturally prefer, if I waa) to be incar- cerated in an institution I would pi'efer Concord. Q. I speak with refwence to the general classi of immiatesi, take the class that ai'e liable 'it!lie insititutio'ii? A. Yes, bSt. Q. Yotu iMnk tihle tnoiral tonne of tHiat iastdtuifcibni is better Itliaii tihis? A. I do; at tlie time I was theae. ' Q. T>o yoii attrilmte the lower moral tome here to the punisih- ment; methodis of discipline? A. That I couldn^t m.j; I tynK if a man knows he is goinig to be sieYerely puniished he wiU, if he, is going to do wrong, he will do more wrong and lie aibout it a gi'eat deial more than if he knowis the piunfehment is slack; he will take more pains to conceal his wrong doing; there are a greart) many men here who come from New York whosie character is lower tha/ni those, as a general thing, in Concord; a different set of man here. ; Q. That is what I Wanted to know, whetther yon thought the grade of the red-grade class was the same asi it is of thie lower class at Concord? A. I think 'the men at Concord, as a general 'thing, are men of higher moral and intellectual sitaniding, than a good many of these here. Q. Yon think with this ciasis the same methoidls of discipline in Concord wonld tend to improtve their moral tone? A. There are more than; twice as many here as there were at ithat time; I don't isiee luow they could nee the siame meithloids here; [ don't beMeye pensonlaiUy in corpoiral punishmenifc for any man; I don't think it has an uplifting tendency to a man' to bei floigged, although it may! make him veaMze he iis itni a position where he has to obey, if he dom/t obey by any oitlh«lr puniishmient. By Mr. litchfield : Q. WihJieh isi itihe better modie ofl pnnMimeint iml TOur judgment;, the floggJmg or conflninig -the prilsoinier in! the siolitadeis chained up with IhflBi hamidisi to the grate? A. I stoiuld rather ha.ve a (logging than lio be ctoStnedl up aE dayj By Dr. Smitlh : Q. Whab siubstiitJute, on the whfAe, would you maice ini the insti- tution if you had the same class to deal with that you ha,A-e here, and yoiu required they shoiuld obey the iiules and obey them prorapttily, anid if they dildnilt) you had to compel it; you arei an expert in tihasi buisineBIs, youi oiuigiht to bei able to' tell what substi- tute would ans.wer the siame pujrpoislei on- even a betitieo- purpose, and have a higher and ele\^ating inflnence on the class that is punished? A. Thajtf I dtom't know; I kniow that mosti of the: men here ])refer almosti any puniishmieint nartiher tlhian to go into the ^olitan' and be alome for two or three diayis; T know thati isi dreaded by almost any of them. ' i L 1072 Q. More than goiag to ihe ba-tih,-noioiin? A. Nati generally more tlian going to the bath-room, becaiise they liave am idea, going to the Taath-roioim means sometlhiing nioTe than it really does; I know most anyT\here a man would rather tlaJie a aoirpoiral j>unishraent and get oveir it quicidy than to sitay iiii comflnemet. Q. If the punishment was between solitairy and! physical treat- ment a man would pirefer the physical tneajtment? A. t tliink he ■n'ould if he knew the extent of the phyisilcal' treatmejnt. Q. Does the solitary confinement, does a man, come out of it more improved than he does by physdioal treatment, In your expeirience? A. I hardly know what you mean by " impixjived.-' Q. More likely to obey the rules? A. I tlhiink he is more likely t») obey the rules. i Q. Doi you consider it more effl«aiciouisi? A. Yesi; it leave mi semBe of pensonal spite against a man; I think if amy man is flog- ged he holdsi siome pensonial evidenioe of gnuidge otr spite against the man who flogs bJTn. By Mr. latchfieMi : Q. TAhereas if put in the siolitaMesI and chaitied up he does nivt hi)M any resentment? A. N'ot slo muich, because he knows it is a regular rontine of puinfiishnnetartl more tlhian the flogging is. Q. Would the men r-onisider it asdegnading as toi be Hogged? A. No ; I don?t think a mam wilth 'any eellf ■^^espect wiouH comsWer it as degrading as it would to be flogged. By Dr. Smith: Q. "^Tiat do yon think is the influence of having two or three inmates occupy the same cell together; elevating in moral tone or not ? A. It would be in some instances, and some it wouldn't; I knew of men who have been benefited; I have known, men who ask to be doubled up so thej may study better; two or three in the short -hand class have asked it lately, so they may talk to each other, and others ask to be doubled up for immoral purposes. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Would it not be exceedingly diflicult for the superintendent to decide what men should be doubled up ? A. I think, if a man ia a judge of character, after a man has been in this institution for six months and gets a blue suit he ought to know him well enough to judge whether he would be a fit man for another one. Q. Didn't the investigation last January show a good many of the blue coat men were involved ? A. Yes. 1073 Q. Many of the officers ? A. Many of the paroled men who nohody supposed; the inmates said they were in it, at any rate. By Dr. Smith: Q. Yon have personal information enough to know whether that kind of vice is very common in OTch institutions ? A. It is oommon in a good many institutions; it was practiced to a cer- tain extent at Concord, although the men had more liberty there tham here to circulate among each other; it was not so well known. Q. StUl it is a vice that does exist ? A. Yes. Q. I would lUve to inquire about the food here generally, you are familiar with that; how is it as to the uppen grade ? A. I never have been in the first gi'ade; I don't know what they do get, Q. How is it in your grade ? A. In, the second and third grade ib is by no means so well as we might ask for; it isn't as well as at CSoncord. Q. As to the effect upon the health of inmates; from your observation are they not generally pi'etty well preserved men ? A. I think if a man eats what he gets reasonably without injuring himself in personal ways the food will keep him in a healthy manner. Q. la. the food good ? A. It is good when there is plenty of it; there is not much variety to it; it is good food; the bread is very good, and you can have all you want of it. Q. It is uniformly good ? A. Uniformly good. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. How is the water ? A. The water last summer was' very poop, a year ago; this sunimer it has been, better, and a year ago last summer they gave us spring watei-; they brought it in barrels; generally the water is good; the water last year we got through ,the pipes was very poor. By Dr. Smith: ' Q. In Concord did they have any military discipline ? A. ]Sio. Q. What do you think is the effect of that on inmates ? A. I think it has a beneficial effect in some ways; I don't in any way approve of having one inmate over another where the report he might give against him is going to affect the other inmate's stay. Q. Does that apply to the military part of it any more than any- where else ? A. No; the oflScers in the military, as a generiaJ thing are the oflScers chosen for monitora. Q Wouldn't you think the system of having inmate officers is likely to stimulate persons to do better and try to obtain those . 135 1074 positions ? A. It does some men, but th.ey are a great many who have no ambition to be an offlcen; I think the military is very good for a man's health, giving them two 01 three hours twice a week in the yard and evei^ night an hour; if a man had been T\'orking in the shop all day it is biHlwr than going from the shop to the cell. Q. But you object to the inmate officer, as a rule ? A. Yes. By Mr. Litchifleld: Q. I think I undenstolold yon to say that' you didn't think it wfus right tihe report made by an inmate officer* should affeob a man's stay in this iniati'tntioni? A. I dtwi't; I dbn't tihimk a report one imoate should give a/nother imnate should 'have anything to do with his stay in the inisibiltuitioin. i Q. If the inmate officens in the i"egtment, through their re][)orts, could subject a man to the usual miUtary discipline, such as erbra guard duty in the military' school, that you wouldn't object to? A. No; and I tihink it would be beneficial, because !tlhe health of the man is improved, as a general thing, by the mUitaay. Q. In a military boairding school the junior officers are taken fpoon tihe ranks and th.ey have power to miaike repoirts, but the boy's stay in sdhbol is not lengthened there; you thinlk a man's stay may be lengthened by these reportsi? A. An inmate officer will give another man an order, and if the man whom^ he gives it to replies in a disrespectful manner, he gets a flrait-dass report; if that is given at the time when he iia exneoting the blue suit) it might keep him here a year longer. By Dr. Smith: Q. Hasn't every man the righti of an appeal for a trial or courv martial? A. Only to the colonel, unless he isf an officer. Q. A man on e\'ery complaint cion make an appoal? A. He can maJse appeal to the colonel. j Q. Doeis he get a trial? A. He gets an inveisitigaJtiom; is call eel up with the man who reported him. Q. A ooiurt-martial system? A. Yesi, sir; it is well understood the colonel upholds the officer, and will take the officer's word in preference to tihe inmajtels. Q. That is iright? A. As &t rule it is oragh* to have discipline; there have been a good many instances where the man in giving the report the colonel has ackn.owledged the report was unjusit, but as a general thing if the captain or lieutenant state that man waa talking or replied- in a sulky or disrespecltiful manner, and the man denied it, tihe officer's word would be taken and tihe report would stand. 1075 By Mr. Idtohfleldi: Q. You mean by saying if lie is reported and gets a mar-k that if a man is abou't reacliing a turning point a aingile report miglit result in Ms being kept here a year longer? A. A mian must get six nine's to get a blue suit; if he h^s five, and in the company some day an officer gives him an oirder, asl I have heaii'd them do •sometimes, in a sullen way to do so and so, and the mian replies in a disrespeclttful manner, in a vulgar or profane way, he is liable to be redujoed to the red suit, by going down to the red suit three months in the red suit and six more in the black keepsi him nine moniths longer in getting the blue suit; that report^ might do it; it is possible to do it. Q. Have you know instances where it has resulted in that way? A. Not that I could make any staltlemient of; I know imstanoiw where one report has kept a man from getting a blue suit, and where if he had had his blue suit he wouldn't be in a position to get other reports perhaps, because men in the blue suits are allowed to talk to eadli other. By Dr. Smitlh: Q. What isystiem of _trades have they in OoncoiM, and how do they colmpaipe? A. At the time I left Concord they W'ere inauigu- rating the ^tirade school system; tihey had a printings office there and shoe shop; thley-madei a great many shoes by contract; thiey had some four or five hundred men in the shoe ishopi Q. Do yon think it has a beneficial effect here? A. I don't think, a man could go through Concord in ten months and learn as much aibout a trade as he coiild here; I think a man learns more in trade and ,in school here than he does there. Q. The discipline and methods are better hei-e ? A. They are more stric,t; you have to learn more here; j'our school and trade, ii'struction there didn't count on Your release at the time I was there, although I think it does now, but it does here, and a man has more interest in doing well. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you know whether tlie monitors are expected to show their efficiency by making a given number of reports in a year ? A I have heard Colonel Halpin at certain times tell a monitor he didn't think a monitor was doing his duty by making a grea-ti many reports; if he reported a man when he deserved it, and the man knew it, he wouldn't give him a chance; if I knew the moni- 1076 tor would report me everjy- time I violated the rule I wotildnlt violate the rule very often. Q. The tendency is to discoui'age indiscriminate reports' ? A. Yes, sir. John J. Hogan, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to fonner witnesses. Q. Where were you sent from ? A. New York city. Q. For what purpose ? A. Burglary. Q. Did you plead guilty ? A. Yes. Q. When wei-e you sent to the reformatory ? A. Sixth of December, 1890. " \ *; Q. What was your age ? A. Eighteen. Q. What had been your employment ? A. Worked on the elevated railroad. Q. Had you ever been convicted of any offense before ? A. No, sir. Q. Is this the first time ycm ever had been in prison ? A. I had been arrested for fighting; I was out on straw bail. Q. Since you have been in the refomlatory have you been pun- ished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. TaJiefn to the bath-DSom ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How many times ? .V. Three or four. ■ Q. When were you taken there the first time ? A. I was taken there, but I wasn't paddled, in December or January, 1891. , Q. When were you first paddled ? A. In December, 1892. Q. When were you paddled the last time ? A. I don,'t know whether March or April. Q. This last March ? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^ATiat were you punished for ? A. I was implicated in a crooked deal the first time fbr tobacco smoking, and I think the next time I went down on reports, breaking work in the iron foundix, and sending it in. the mill-room, and T went down again for a bottle of alcohol. Q. You had alcohol in your x)ossession ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were those mainly the offenses you were accused of ? A. Ye®, sir. Q. In what respect do you claim the punishment was severe ? A I claim it was severe, not having sufficient proof to give, it to me for. Q. You claim yon were unjustly accused ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wasn't it true yon had tobacco ? A. It might have been true, but they didn't know it, at the same time it was true. 1077 Q. Wasn't it true you had alcohol ? A. I didn't say I was unjustly treated; I thought T deserved that; I admit that they had stfflclent proof there. Q, Were you unjustly accused of breaking the articles in the foundry? A. No, sir; I don'tl claim I was unjustly treated there either; the only time I was unjustly tireated was when I was reduced on an imnate'a wp less tlian a year; Februiary 6, 1889, I was paroled. Q. Your condliot during tih!at time was good? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have any marks against you ? A. They were all can- celed to earn my pan-oie; I lost a mark for trivial offense. Q. You were released a little less than one year from the time, you came? A. Yes, sir. Q. Then yoiu were afterwards sent back to the reformatoiry for the same offense? A. No^ sir; for violation of parole. Q. It was a part of the same punishment that foUowe'd the convictiion that you refer td, you- weren't convicted of anything else? A. No, sic; I wasn't arrested only by the officersi hei-e. Q. When did that occur? A. July 10, 1889. Q. Yon have remained in the refonmatoiy from that time to this ? A. I was transferred to Auburn State prison, on June 25, 1890. Q. How long did you r^ain there? A. Twenty-two months; until Apria 2, 1892. , Q. Then yom were broiught back here? A. Yes; on recommenda- tion of Mr. Durstoni; he claimed if I was released, in his opdnipn, I would live at liberty without violating the lawi; since I have earned the firs* grade and was reduced on a trivial matter to the lowesit grade. ' Q. For what offense or what charge have yom been- reduced from the firs* grade to the lowest? A. They claim it was con- niving with anotiher inmate, because I da4n't report him for mail- ing mistaikes in sending in reports; I am sure if you saw the evi- dence yon wonld acknowledge it was a trivial offense to be reduced from the upper first grade to the lower grade after being here eleven motntihs; I was in a position of trust at the time. Q. Who was it miade the charge against yon? A. An inmate broughlt it before the notice of a paroled man, and! the paroled man maJde out a report, which was really a tissue of lies and grosseis* exaggeration unishments, etc. ? A. 1 was in position all but the time of Harry Day's treatment; Q. In what manner were the facts that were tO' be entered in these books obtained and presented to the clerk for en.ti^ ? A. The superintendent would place down here No. 4 and L; L would indicate twelve sti-olces, and the date over itj after! he came back from the bath-room he would thro\\' them down on my desk, either the superintendent or Colonel Halpin, and I would place the entries in the registers. <2. The entries in the book were obtained from that memoran- di'ui ? .\. Yes; the superintendent's own memorandum on here. Q. Was there any other memorandum furnished you by which the entries in the book ^^ere obtained or authenticated '! A. Nothing was given verbally; there is always something to show for it. ; Q'. Nothing more than simply that memorandum ? A. That is all. ii- Left with yon by eithcT the superintendent or some officer of the institution ? A. That is it. Q. As to whether that memorandum was a correct representa- tion of the facts as they existed you had no knowledge, that is the entiw clerk, or means of ascertaining, except from that memo- randum ? A. I have often spoken with men. Q. Have you any other means of learning what the facts really were except from the mernorandum ? A. That is the only way. (2. So that the clerk entering these things in the book couldn't 'say of his own knowledge whether the blows received were L blows or LL blows ? A. That is the idea. By ]\Ir. Litchfield: Q. The clerk was instructed to faithfully copy all those data "/ A Yes. ] Q. And he was not allowed to omit any blows ? A. Not to our knowledge, but I have known from what they tell me — Q. You were instructed as a clerk to take that paper and copy it faithfully ? A. Yes, sir. ^ Q. You would have been punished if you had not done so ? A. I would have been reported. ^ - Q. In whose handwriting were these data that were given to you ? A. The snperintendent's. 1091 Q. Was there any data or meuiorandum given you ahowing any other punishment, infliction of Mows, than those inflicted with the paddle ? a., As a rule admonished or reproved. Q. I am speaking of blows ? A. Admonish would be con- sidered sometimes a blow, as I understand it, but admonished would be put on, tliat would be another memorandum placed in the books. Mr. Stanehfleld.— I ask to strike that out. He is altogether too wiUing to transilate expressions. Q. Were you ever in a juvenile asylum ? A. No, sir; I was in a Hebrew orphan asylum; T never was a delinquent. Q. What age were you ? A. Eight years old; 8 to. 14. Q. Are your parents living ? A. No; sir. Q. Were they living when you were first sent to this school tliat you refer to* ? A. My mother was. Q. Have you any brothers or sisters ? A. No, sir. Q. Yoil are the only surviving member of the family ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you any near relatives in this country ? A. Only two uncles. Q. What is your nationality ? A. I am a Hebrew, American born. Q. Your parents Germans ? A. Yes, ^ir. Q. How old were you when you were arrested for this offense ? A. Twenty years old. Q. Did you ^have a venereal disease at the time ? A. At the time I wasi arrested; no>, sir. Q. At any time ? A. Yes, sir; I have had it. Q. Did you have it when j^ou came in the institution ? A. No, sir. By Mr. Stanchfield: Q. At what age had you had venereal disease ? A. Eighteen or 19. " - ij. Do you know what ? A. Gonorrhea. Q. At the time when you were arrested for violation of your parole where were you living ? A. Twenty-seventh street, 157. Q. In rooms that you rented ? A. Furnished rooms. Q. That you rented ? A. Yes; myself and another young man roomed together. Q. What rent did vou pay for the rooms ? A. Five dollars a week. ', Q. Were you working right along for six weeks before your firrest ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Sure of that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Where ? A. New York city; I was working for myself. 1092 Q. Doing what ? A. ■^^'ell, 1 was gambling. By Mr. Litclifield: Q. While yon were hei*e as clerk in charge of the books von had to make entries in the discipline records ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Haye j^oiu found those recofrds correct, as fair as .von know anything about them? A. If a man got twelve and thoiught he received more — Q. As fai' aia yon know you found they were correct in all par- ticxulaiH? A. Only from what other inmates would 'tell me; those that received punishment; they would tell me .tihey received tw enty, and the book would probably show eight, that would be the only way I would know. ^Iv. Stanchiield. — I ask to stiike that out as heaopsay. Mr. litohifield. — That isheaimay. The witness. — As far as I know, I only had ttn take the super- intendent's woi'd what he gave them waisi correct. Q. As far as yon know you found the record® were faithful, correct? A. Yes, sir; anyway those records would be; I also: wish to show from ('\idence you have had, pire\'ioui9 that paddliing is only put ten a month at the time of Mr. Beach's ■ time in the refonnatoiry. , Mr. Stanchfleld. — I auk to strike that out as hearsay; the records shows what that was. The witneRs. — -I wish to know if it isn't poisisiible for a man that comes back from States prison — Q. You want to know whether a prisoner returned from the State pri'Son to the reformatory would have a ri'ght, whether the authorities would have a right to discharge him. before the expiva tion of the maximum length, of time for whjch he might be sen- tenced under the law ? A. Yes. Q. I think so, if their behavior is such that they would feel authorized? A. Don't you think, under all oircumisit.ances, I oug'ht to receive a parole? ,, Q. That is entirely for the boai'd of managers to detennine. A. They always tell me I have to stay until I earn a parole; when a man coaiiea back from State prison he comes here with the idea of earning an early release; aiocording to that I am detained longer than I ought to be. Q. You will have to abide by their rules and earn your parole; the injustice in your ca.«e consists in reference to the manner in which you were brought back, and the manner in which you wei-e transferred to the prison; while the officers in charge of this insti- tution and the State officers would have a right to interfere in your matter or use their influence in your behalf, all expect that you wiU abide as strictly as you can to the rules, and: comdtid) 1093 yourself in such, a manner' as to earn yoiiT parole, and when they are mtisfied yon are doin.g that they will do whatever the law) will permiti th.em to do in youir behalf. ' By Mr. Litdhjfleldi: Q. You stated certain men' told yon that they had received more blows than the necoird .showed? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you tell me their names and oonisiecntive! nnmbers? A. At that time I never took any ispecial note. Q. You oan^'t give me any name or nnmber? A. No, sir. Charles Williams, being < ,Q. Have you any furtlher complaint to make? A. No, sir. Q. What have you seen in refeiren(;e to others? A. I saw one man severely punished by the name of Woods ; got transferred to Auburn prison; he hit an instructoir over the head with a ohair; iie had botih eyesf black, and the man couldn'* stand up; they wouldn't let the man lay in. Q. Di'd yon see his back? A. Yesi;,I saw him when he was hit; I -was at a distance; he stood in the closet and pulled down liis pants, and we were working on the machine across the way, and I conld see the stripes; I could justi see red marks across his back. Q. Couldn't see the .skin was broken? A. No', sir. q. Or that the blood had been running? A. No, sir. Q. Anything else that you' know of? A. No, sir. Q. You haven't any, difficulty in getting along? A. No, sir; not since! have been trying to behave mysdf; things have quieted -down; things are not like they we^eVhen I was in the red suit. , Q. When yon were in the red 'suit you didn't feel like obeying the rules? A. That mig-ht have had something tol do. Q. Did you feel as ambitious to tiy and obey the rules m when you were in the blue snit? A. Not when I first went down in ' the red grade; I didn't appear to do well, but after I was down a month or m I tried to get along, but I couldn't; I was down nearly five months; I went down the latter part of December and came out the first part of May; the first month I was down I didn't care nuuoh about it. Q When they flust sent you down yon were kind of angry and mad' A The first month I was here was December, and I was put in the squad, and officers would give us reports because we coikdn't do the m'annal; I don't see how they could expect m to do it when we first come here. Henry Pieroe (5344). , ' 1096 This witness was called, but* owing to tlie fact he claimed to be very deaf, was etscnsed. "i Judge Gilbert. — The prosecutioni wotuld like to have the refor- matory record introdnced in evidence relating to the last vvitnews upon tihe stand. (The record is prodmced.) Judge Grilbert. — The prosecution offer in evidence the record made at the refooMnatory at the time he entei*ed the institution relating to Ms health. Mr. Stanohfleld. — Offer the whole record? Judge GrUbert. — Yes; the whole. " Claims rupture, good general health; medium type; long ear line." Mr. Stanchfleld. — I offer the whole of the record and wUl read it: "Name, Louis Henry Hoffmau, aliasi Henry Piex'ce; 1892, Ocitobor flfth. Admits, voliiDtarily communicates, impelled by his alleged desire to get on a tinithful grounding, and as an aid to future good behavior, but really influenced by the rule here which maikes it for the advantage of an ex-convict to communicate the fact; tells the general superintendent that he has served fifteen months in the Nebraska State prison in 1889 for horse stealing, and has been tramping eight or nine years; was in 1889 in the New York juvenile asylum; taken out, and, has frequently moved from place to place, principally tramped, and in jail many times. Lived at home until this winter, quarreled with his mother about licentiousness; took furnished room; traanped to Wayne county." Judge G-ilbert.' — We offer now the conduct record. "jS'oivember 14, 1892. No: 4 H, February 11, 1893, No. 4, L blows. February 11, into seclusion; out of seclusion February 13," Mr. Hoppe. — We want to put in Pierce ;* after having been received at the reformatory remained in the lower first grade for five months, was reduced to the second grade October 31, 1892, having in that month seventeen second-class, six third-claiss and one flrs1>class report. The first-cla;SS report being for fraud at trade school examination. He remained in the second grade until December twenty-fifth, Christmas, when he was restored to the lower fij-st grade again; was again reduced to the second grade on February 11, 1893, and this month of February he had seven second-class and four first-class offenses; he remained in the second grade until July 1, 1893, when he was restored again, to the lower first, in which he has been since. He was last spanked February 11, 1893; he continued to attend his lessons in school and passed his examination successfully during March, April,' May and June, 1893. In July he began to fail in his examinations 1097 and the pencil memorandum, in tlie record h,ere siiows that he claims deafness and that some allowances has been made. ]Mr. Litehfield. — Tlheire is nothing in the recoird to show whether' he was deaf when he came here. Mr. Hoppe. — There is nothing. Mr. Litchfield. — The inference is he was not deaf. Mr. Hoppe. — That is the inference. Mr. Litchfield. — It seems to me- that a man as deaf as he i« to-day shonld have had some record. Mr. Hoppe. — He has been for some time under Dr. Wey's super- vision. He continued to pass successfully at examinations until July, lango^age and arithmetic. Dr. Smith. — Is he in class now ? Mr. Hoppe.^He has passed his last, examination in Octobesr and Novemiber he had nothing at all for examination. Memo- randum : " His losses in school not to affect- gi-ade on accoun.t of deafness and pending further experiment as to caipacity." Dr. Smith. — Of what, hearing ? Mil. Hoppe. — Yes, sir; I suppose so. Dr. Smith. — That don't attach in regard to his punishment. Mr. Hoppe. — Seems to be no connection between the two. Dr. Smith. — It occurred several months after and then progres- sive. It would be a subject of very careful medical inspection for a considerable time. Mr. Hoppe. — He is and has been in the gymnasium since the ■ twenty-eighth of August. Dr. Smith. — It is a recognized fact he is deaf in his class. Mr. Litchfield. — The fact a man. is in the -gymnasium is sup- posed to show he is under the doctor's particular inspection. Mr. Hoppe. — It does; aU the men in the gymnasium are under h^ia partiouiar care and are placed there on his special recom- mendation and aftler his examination. This man has been in the gymnasium since the 28th of August, 1893. Mr. litehfield.— That ifei cloBlely foUmriag hisi complaint of deafness. Mr. Hoippe. — Yes. Mr. Litchfield. — ^Within a month of hais oomplainit? , air. Hoppe.— Yes. Judge Gilbenli. — When' was he placed in the solitary the last time? ' Mr. Hoppe. — February eleventih. Judge G-Ubent.— Hoiw long did he remaiin in the solitairy ? Mr. Hoppe.— Two days. Judge Gilbert.— Does the book show whether he was chained? Mr. Hoippe.— No, sir. i 138 1098 Mr. LitcMeild. — Is there a memorandium m lead pencil? Mr. Hoppe. — Yes; cladms deaf. Mr. Litchfield. — Whose handwiriting is that? Mr. Hoppe. — It looks like Mr. Brockwaiy's, buit I am not sure; I am not positive. Judge Grilbert.— We will in'tlradnice tike evidence relating to the weight of the jjaddle, and caM Mr. Hoppe. Oscar Hoppe, recalled: Examined by Judge GUbert: Q. Have you weighed the largest paiddle to-day? A. I have, in connection with Mr. Boeder. Q. What do you find its weight to be when dry? A. The strap, including the handle, weighs sixteen! ounces. Q. When the sitrap is just dipped in wa,ter, and moved two or three times through the water; after doing that did you weigh it? A. I did. ' , Q. What was its weight then? A. One-half ounice was added; so ; that its toM weight, inclusive of handle, was sixtjeen and one-half. Q. Did you afterwai'ds ,soak the strap for quite a length of time in water? A. It was soaked in cold water for tenminutesi; allowed to remain for ten minutes, and weighed again; then it weighed eighteen and ome-half ouuicesi. By Dr. Smith: Q. Did yoiu soak it in hot water? A. A little hot water runl in it in the istart, but we shut it off and' soaked it in cold water. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Was the strap usually isoalied in cold water before it was used upon the inmates? A. I have never been present; it has been testified to it was simply dipped in cold water. Q. Do you know? A. Not to my knowledge. Judge Gilbert. — • On the part of the prosecution' they desire to have introduced all the record 'that there was showing the reso- lutions or actiodJl thart was taken by the board of managers with reference to the transfer of prisoners from tlhe reformatory tx> the State prLsooQia, when you can comivenieintly fumiish it. Mr. Hoppe.— Do you wish each time the transfer isi made; you ^T.sh a copy of the resolutian? Judge Gilberid — A copy of the resdution or the action which was taken as faoj as the records show by the board of managers in reference to the transfer of priisoners from the reformatory to 1099 tlie priisioiii. They ateo desii'e toi have furnished tihem tihe dates wlheu the trarusf er wiais actually made. Mr. Hoppe. — We already have the dates amd names! of those traaisfeiria, at least for six yeans back; tlhat is, m far as the com- mittee asked ua tio fuimish. them. Judge Gilbert. — It may be tlhat is all they desire you to give with reference to the resolutioiiis and aotioni th'at the board' have taken. Mr. Litcihfleld.— I tMnk that will be far eooioughJ Judge (Tilbert. — I think if they go back and sihow the resolu- tioms which Ihave been adopted during tihe last five or isix years that is sufficient. Mr. litdhfield. — Wouldn'ft the bettielr way be to have the minute book put in evidence ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — We wouldn't want the records of tte reform- atory to go a.way. Ml'. Litchfield. — These other books are all la evidence. Mr. Stanchfleld. — The book of minutes was put in evidence originally. Judge Grilbert. — Is it here in the reformatory now ? Mr. Hoppe. — Unless the secretary of the board has talcen it away; he sometimes takes it to write up the minutes. Judge Grilbei*. — Will you aisoertaiD: that and see if he can have an. opportunity to examine it ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — I am positive the book was put in. Judge Grilbert. — Suppose that is regarded in evidence, so much ' of it a)s either side may desire toi ueie. ( Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is all right. I think you will find it in now. Judge Gilbert. — If you will allow Mr. Fanning an opportunity to examine that'book, perhaps it will relieve you of the necessity of furnishing that copy, a copy of the resiolutions', and if you wUl S])eak to the secretary or whoever has it in charge, perhaps Mr. Fanning can have an opportunity to see it. Q. You were requested to furnish a copy of the records relating to the punishments ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you made such a recoi'd ? A. It has been made under my supervision. Q. Are those the records so made ? A. Yes, sir; the three volumes. Q. Are they correct ais far they go? A. They are. Q. Thev show, do they, the number of corporal punishments that haA-e been inflicted and upon whom they have been inflicted, and for what length of time ? A. I might state exactly what they contain; they contain the names and consecutive numbers of 1100 everj- inmate who has been in this institution, during the past five years; they contain the number of days that the inmate spent here up to the first of October, 1893, the dates of any writteoi notices that they have received from the superintendent, the dates of each admonition, the dates of ea.ch bath-room treatment, pro^ v'ided they have received any at all. ! Q. You mean punishment ? A. I mean punishment, and the ^vhole of the spats inflicted, with, the exception of perhaps eight or ten, where it was not possible for me to find the original memoranda; eight or ten instances; not eight or ten men; the different occasions of rest cure treatment, the n.umber of days spent by each man at rest cure and the dates from and to; also the same with reference to any seclusion treatment that the inmate has had, and then, in, other columns, the man's relation to the reformatory on the 1st of October, 1893, that is, whether on that day he was here stilly and if so in what gTade, whether he was pdiifoled or transferred to State prison or discharged by maximum expiration; I was asked for two statements; I was first asked to siubimit this statement with reference to the meni received during the past five yeara, and afterwards was asked for a supplementary statement to include alsoi those who were here on the firat of October five years ago, so as to cover all these records of disciplinary treatment that has been inflicted at the reformatory duriing the past five years; the first volume is that supplementary statement; the second and third are the first statement asked for. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do those statements show the total number of men paddled in tliat space of time ? A. They will; yes, sjr; they are not footed up. Q. Will you have them footed up, year by year, so the committee can Itell ? A. I couldn't give it to you year by year, but I can. give yon the total. Q. That will do. Mr. Litchfield. — ^What the committee would like, take the total number of men paddled and adding them up. Mr. Stanchfleld. — The statement we will put in will show that. Q. Can you state the number of punishments that have been inflicted in the bath-room upon inmates during the last five years? A. I can by footing it up.. , Q. Can you now ? A. I can not give you the actual figures; you wish first the number of men spanked, and if any of those men have been spanked more than once — you wish the total number of men spanked and the total number of oceasioiis ? 1101 Mr. LitcMeld. — Yes; if one man was spanked twenty times in a year I Avoiild lUve to have that appear. The witness. — We propose to furnish that during our defense, in connection with some other infonnation which would show the percentage. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I have had that prepared to use for the defense. Mr. Litchfield. — We will wait then. Judge Gilbert. — As I understand it, the eviden.ce on the part of the prosecution is closed. The witness. — I was ajsked to furnish a list of namesi of all prisoners paroled from the hospital from October 1, 1887, to Septembei* 30, 1893, the total number of men paroled from the hospital in the sis yeai's was twenty -nine; of those there were paroled regularly, after perfect record and upper flmt grade for six moD,ths, or more, twelve; the number of those receiving a special parole from the hospital during the six yearis was seven- teen, ^d attached are the names of those different ones. The following is a copy of the same : Paroled from hjosfpital from October 1, 1887, to September SO, 1893: • . ' 2531, Wm. Templeman, March l2, 1888, regular. 2075, F. aiiller, March 23, 1888, special. 1623, W. Dart, May 16, 1888, special. 2833, T. Eobinson, September 4, 1889, regular. 3078, R. Scommodan, March 20, 1890, special. ' 3267, S. Will^ April 7, 1890, special. 2704, Jas. Williams, May 1, 1890, special. 2942, Jno. Gillan, July 31, 1890, special. 3605, Sol. Samuels, August 30, 1890, special. 2811, Lincoln Wyant, August 7, 1890, special. 3829, Hy. W. Hansom e, February 28, 1891, regular. 3400, Jnio. Kilt, November 19, 1890, regular. 3754, G-eo. Katohum', Febtaary 11, 1891, special. 2814, B. MoPtimer, September 14, 1891, regular. 4306, Edw. G-reen, February 4, 1892, reguiair. ' 3387, Ernest Kemp, November 17, 1891, reguiair. 4478, Wm. Fletcher, FebTuary 5, 1892, regular. 3728, Jno. BtWwn-, March 22, 1892, special. 4433, Jno. Shafier, March' 2, 1892, regular, 4274, Harry Seairs, September 29, 1892, special. 3566, Loiuis Portaliep, January 5, 1893, special. 2774, Wm. Weeks, December 1, 1893, regular. 4388, Herbert Bills, Janu'aay 26, 1893, spedal. 4884, Jno^ Do^vnimg, May 6, 1893, regiilair. 1102 5572, Ohas. ETesoni, Marcli 24, 1893, special. 5339, Geo. EUiJs, May 10, 1893, special. 3076, JnO. Gilligan, June 17, 1893, special. 4564, Jas. O'Lau'ghlin, Aaigiisit 15, 1893, special. , 4060, Horace Stockton, Septtember 5, 1893, regnilar. Q. How early in tlie history of the instituitioo did the spanking method coanmenice? A. I aim unable to say; as long aisi I have be-en connected with the institutiomi it has beetn in exisitence. Q. "When was that ? A. Eighteen hundred andi eighty -two. Q. You know nothing about it before 1882? A. I do not. Mr. Standhifleld. — T think Mr. Brockway iteistified it has been in vogue since the inception' of the ins/titution. Q. You think that in 1882, l.'^S3 and' 1884 the percentage of ])risoners spanked or paddled was ais great asi it is now or was before it ^^'as stopped? A. I can only give you my impression, and my impression is the percentage was not as large as it has been during the past five years. Q. In making up this recoird did you have occaision to refer to the original memoranda or data which wasi furnished by the officer to the clerk who had in charge this part? A. Ye®, sir. Q. WhartJ wasi tihe fact witih refarenice t6i your finding that the books in every case correisponded exactly with that memoT^andlim or report? A. I turned to the repdrts toi ob'taiii the information that the boolvs did not contain ; the books simply conit'ained that a certain spanking took place on a certain date, and I would turn to the report and ascertain the number of spats applied' at the spank- ing; I have not searched through the original reports and ascer- tained whether all the information.! contained on them is con- tained on the ledger. • Q. In so far as the information on the book that wasi contained on th.e memorandum, did they agree? A. The book did not con- tain this memorandum of letters. Q. The memorandum and the book did not agree so far as the number of blows was concerned? A. The book did not contain that information. Mr. Stanchfleld. — The book didn't pretend to contain it. Judge Gilbert. — It leaves off part of it. Mr. Stanchfleld. — That is a fair statement of it; it worfd not be fair to say they didn't agree, because the book didn/t purport, to state it. Q. (Dr. Snmtih.) There was a time when that book was com- plete, contained! the letter also? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did they agree then? A. I didn't have any occasion to look for them; where the entry was complete I didn't turn to the originial report. 1103 / Q. Didm't ytra, fluid' insibancieis wihene tKe memorandium stating the puniiislimjente, tihie numbems of blows, etta., tbat were given; that in some calsies nd rieooird.' at ail was made in the books? A. No; I didn't find may such case'; the case Mir. White refers to is that I have totinid' on the ledger in two or thi-ee instances, I thinls, the entry of a bath-room pTinishment, .and I have turned to the original memorandium of that montli to ascertain the letter, and didn't find the oiiginal memorandum; I found a discrepanoy in so far that the ledger page contained the entry; the bath-room pundshimemt, and on the original memor'andum it didn't emst; moreover, that the reports I had befoire me showed that the mapi'a Tecord wasi appiajrenitly of such a naiture', tihait noi spaiuking would have taken place, and thje imfleretnoe wMtlh I direw and explained toi Mr.. White ait the tlilme wag' ttihat the clerk in makinig tihis entiry had apparenttly tiumed tickpocket when I came here;. I think when I go out I can eam a living; I think it has done me good; I think thlsi plaxje hasi done me good,. By Judlge Gilbeirt: Q. Are yoiu holding amy official position in the refoiranatory now? A. .No^ iSiLr. , , ; Q. What is yooir pomtion in the mlitairy? A. First lieutienant.' Q. You -and Qoionel Bryan we on excellent teimisi? A. IsTo, eir; I never spoke to Colonel Bryan only oin busineisB about report since I am an offloer, and had no dealings with him ;> the lasib time I spoke to Coloinel Bryan was about a month ago abomt a report. Q. Were reports made against you that you denied ? A. Yen, sir. Q. That you claimed were unjust ? A. Yes, sir. Q. In those cases would you send them back ? A. Yesi, sir. , Q. Would they be inyestigated in every instance ? A. Yesi, sir; I sent back a report. Q. Would you send the reports ba,ck and would they in every instance be investigated ? A. In my case; yes, sir. Q. Were they in every instance corrected ? A. . Yes, sir. Q. So that you never had a report made; against you but what you succeeded in getting it cancelled where you put in a denial ? A. Every time I sent back a report I got it ctocelled. Q. Upon the hearing you convinced the officer that it was false? A. Yes, sir. ' ,Q. Wasn't there a report made against you November 15, 1891, for disturbing the hall by long and loud whistling ? A. I didn't deny that report. Q. That stood against you ? A. Yes, sir; that is the report I received and I sent that report back and didn't deny it; I didn't deny I whistled; I deserved it, and it stood. Q. Did you ever see any of the inmates severely piunished or see any of them that had been severely punished ? A. I seen one said he was severely punished. Q. Did you see anything indicating that he had been severely punished;; any bruises or mar'ks upon him ? Mr. Stanchfleld. — Is that proper cross-examination ? Judge G-Ubert.; — My idea is this, that so long as the witness, upon his direct examination, has not stated aaything upon that subject or has not been requested to sitate anything upon that 1112 subject by Mr. Stamchfield, or by the defense, that he ought not to be interrogated upon the subject or give evidence of that kind for the reason that it is really opening the affirmative side of the case. Mr. Stanchfield. — I do object to it; I don't ask him in reference to anything of that kind. I put him on to show generally what he thinks of the reformatory and its influence upon him, that does not open the door for them to ask h\m what he has seen of fellows who have been punished. Judge Gilbeirt. — I think the evidence ought not to be intro- duced. We may as weU raise the question here. Mr. litchfleld. — The committee will rule in that way, reserving to themselves, however, the right, if thtey so choose, tO' ask any questions on any subject- pertaining to the investigation. Unless we ask such questions they are ruled out. Mr. Stanchfield. — I haven't any objection to that, but wouldn't want to be furnishing ammunition here. Q. I am requested to ask you if you were ever paddled upon more than one occasion ? A. No. Q. You say you only received three blows upon that occasion ? A. Yes, sir. Jefferson S. Lowman, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to former witnesses: Q. What is your consecutive number ? A. Fifty-eight hun- dred and sixty-nine. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. Twenty-eighth of last March. Q. From what place ? A. City of Elmira. Q. For what offense ? A. Forgery, second degree. Q. Were you even convicted of any offense before you were convidted of the offense for which you were sent here ? A. No, sii". Q. What is your age ? A. Twenty-seven. Q. Had you any trade before you came here ? A. Yes, sir, watchmaker. Q. What was the offense you were charged with ? A. Forgeiy. ' Q. What did you forge ? A. A check. Q. What was the amount ? A. One hundred dollars, and I received thtpty-flve dollars. Q, Since you have been in the reformatory have you been pun- ished ? A. No, sir. 1113 Q. Have you ever been in the red grade since you have /been, here ? A. No, sir. Q. You have gradually advanced until you are now in the high- est grade ? A. Yeis^ sir. Q. Do you find any difficulty in getting along here so long as you oibiserve tihe rutesi oif tihe relomiajtoiry? A. Tha* is all; I have nkj tlroiuble whatever. Q. Haive you any ddffl'oulty! ini peifoinmiinig' yiouiH task? A, No^ sir. Q. Either in school or in the employment ? A. No, sir. Q.' Have you leiamued amy trajdie eilnce you hiave.beeiii) heire? A. No, sir. Q. Wluat hajsi bleen. your prinicipiajt employmeMtl? A. I take caire of lihe' ciloicksi of tlhei inisitlitu'tiioni and waAclhes and work at the bnaisisi flnisMng' ttnade hiene. ■ Q. Have you ever hadl oicicialsliloini tlo fllnd fault with -the momaitiors, either thie immiateisi momittoms' on the citizieni mjonitoirisi? A. No, sir. Q. Have yotu ever teen pepoirted foir tihei viblatita of 'any rule? A, Yesi, sliir; I ipeceiveid twio or tihlreie repoirfta; I needed tfeem, tiiough. Q. They were all right? A. Yesi, sir; talking wiltlhoutl permis- eiion in tflie stop. Q. Are you in the school, too ? A. I attend a drawing school; mecihamiicial drawing.; ' Q. What caJn: you say tirultlhifuly wiltlu neferiemce to jom iimprovemeat biothi withi refecietnce tlo yoiuai knowledge or with reference to you tnadle? A. I think I hlajve received a great deal of benefit byi bednig sienifi tioi thliisi inBtituitaioni; I tihSlnik anybody will be, if therf live up tloi the nules anidl nefe!ulatiomsl of the place I doln't think they wUl have amy trouble whatever; I know the sichooling has done me a great deal of good and also the mechanical draw- ing, the trade whilch I am lelaffiMing; a person receiyeisi a great deal of valuable knowledge here if they attend strictly to their studies, Q. Do yioiu. fnequently see the siuperintendenlfc goiing throaigh the reformatory ? A. Yes; I see him occas-ionally going through. ' Q. In conversiation oip ijoterviewing the imtnates? A. Our shop he hasi giolne thinough ocicaisdiomajlly but he diom^t go tlirough out shop perhaps m he doesi some of the oithers. Q. I meaai piritoir to thlisl invesitii!gaffii«5m? A. I hajve seem him go through the shop; that isi all I oan siay ilnl regard to that part of it; paisis through the shop. Q. Then from your esperiiemoe and fctom your observation you claim that any inn^aite tha* wil howestliy endeavor to obseirve the rules 'a|n|d obey them and will make an honest effort to per- foiran has taska either ini school oir ilnl MbI employment wHl have no tpomble Sm getting along? A. I thSmk my inmate that is seut 140 1114 hiere tihat livcsl upj tio tflie ruileisl ajndl regulaJtSlons of the place will have no trouMe Tvihiaterer. By Dr. Smith.: \ Q. Didia't you fiiwJ it very difficult to obey tllie rulea? . A. I don't find it so; some people are imcllnied to be orooked and doing things against the rules and regulations of the place; I thiiik they get their just deserts by being reduced in gi'ade. By Mr. Litcihifieid: Q. Were you deaf when you camje here? A. I was inclined to be a little bit so, bu* I am more so than I wais. Q. Do you know what made your deafness increase? A. No, sir. Q. Has the doctor examined your ears ? A. No, sir. Q. Does the doctor know you are growing nnoire deaf? A. I couldn't say. Q. Yooi never compladnied to him about! it? A. Not By Dr. Smitih: Q. How long have you been deaf? A. Little oiver a year now; I noticed it before I came here; it is gradiually getting worse. Q. Don't yooi find a great many rules and regulations here that are umneoeissarijly| stringent and severe? A. They have rules and regulaftioms all laid out to them when they first ent>eir the insti- tution, and I don't see anything to hindeil anybody from making an early parole here; nobody has initierfeped with me; all the reportis I have received' I have been' subject to them; (the monitor has to be strict in his shop to get along with some of them. Q. All depends upon the p^nsom himself? A. Yea; some people can't get, along in school as others can; but they have lower grades in school; they can reduce those people; I don^t see why anybody can't get along nicely; nobody has interfered with me since I have been here; I have attended strictly to my own busi- ness, and I think if everybody else would do as I have dome they wouldn't have any tirouble. By Judge Grilbert: Q. As you understand it there are three dijBEeremt classes of rules, are there not, one foS" the first class or gradle, one for the second grade and onie for the tlhiird' grade? A. Yea; three difFei-ent classes of repoortls. Q. Those repowts relate to the violation, of different rules? A. Yes. Ills Q. Weren'* ycra. repoirtedi by Oolonel Bry,ain fori trying to avoid military dtilty because of deafness? A. Yes; I iMnk I went up to see Coloniel Bryan one night td 'Susk Mm.* about my ©are, and I received a yelloiw report for it, thirty cents. ' Q. Thjatl stood 'ajgaLnst yon? A. Yesi; ifwouldni't have stood if I bad tried to get it cancelled', but mot' affecting nue) any for the month I let it goi; I didn't give an explanatioto to it then. Q. Why didn't you senid to the doctor .and let him oom:e and see you about your eiartsi? A. I th,ou)ght I womid ,get out of here before long. By Dr. SmithI: Q. Did yodi have any tneatmient befdre you came? A. No. I By Judge Grilbeipt: ) Q. Your great desire is td so conduct yourself that you will get out of the reformartiory as soon as poissible? A. I want to get leave from here as soon as possible, certainly. Q. Can yoM say that that desire has nothhig whatever to do with the evidence you are giving here om this investigation? A. I am telling things just as straight as they; ane truthful; I think it is the best thmg ever happened to me; that I came toi this institution. i ; Q. I aea byfthe repoirtB that were filed against you that tliere have been several repoi-ts made? A. I don't know exajotly how many; there have been some for talking in military. Q. Have you, during the last few weeljs, had a cionveirsation with Mr. Brockway, or last tWo or three months ? A. I don't think I have had any conversation with him on any subject what- ever; do yoii mean in regard to reports ? Q. In regard to anything ? A. No ; I have had no conversation any more than in regard to clocks; something like that; that wasn't more than five minutes' in teryiew. Q. Haven't you had some conversation with him or some other ofBcer in reference to this investigation ? A. No-, sir, Q. In reference to the evidence you should give upon this hear- ing ? A. I have had no conversation in regard to anybody whatever. Q. Have. you had any conversation with any one in refertence to the evidence which you should give ? A. No, sir; I have not. Q. Taken no other action in reference to it except simply to write the letter that yoa wrote to the committee ? A. That was all- I have had no cwnversation with anybody in the institution regarding the investigation at all. 1116 Q. So that whaterer Htatement you have made here upon the stand has been made because of the fact that, so fan as your experience goes, you have had no trouble whatever in getting afong in the institution ? A. Yes, sir. Charles Ketcham, being duly sworn, testifted': Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to the former witnesses. Q. Where are you from? A. SayviUe, Ixxng Mand. Q. Where were you sent from ? A. Rivenhead. Q. For what offense ? A. For a/^ault, I believe. Q. Assaulting who ? A. A woman. Q. What is your age ? A. Nineteen. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. Seventeenth of December, I believe, 1892. Q. Since you have been in the reformatory have you had any diflfieulty, any trouble in getting along ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you, at any time, been punished ? A. I have. Q. In the bath-room ? A. I was down, there once. Q. Did you receive punishment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you think you received any more than what you deserved? ' A. No, sir. Q. You deserved all you got ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What have you to say, so far as your experience goes, as to whether a person who tries to observe the rules and tries to per- form or do what is required of him, having any difficulty in get- ting along ? A. T don't think they will; no, ear. Q. What charge was made against you when you were required to go to the bath-room ? A. I was using tobacco. Q. la that the only offense that was chairged againsit you? • A. Yes, sir. Q. You knew at the time you were using it it was against the rules ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. So far as your experience goes, and so far as what you have seen is concerned, it is your belief if a man should behave him- self and try to do right he would get along all right ? A. Yes, sir. Q. When was it that you received this punishment ? A. Some timein April, 1893. .' , Q. Since that time have you had any trouble ? A. No, sir; I h£.ve not. Q. You have obeyed the rules ? A. Yes, su*. Q. Have you been reported for anything since that time ? A. I have been reported for various little things, such as talking. 1117 By Dfi-j SmliUlb Q. What grades have ywu bieela dm? A. The grade I came in whemj I aame here amid the ned, suit. Q. What brought down into the red? A. When I went down 'flor Itdhaicoo. By Judge Grilbert : Q. How miany Mows did you receiYei when you were punished? A. Abouti three, I believe. Q. Don't you know how mamy you received? A. As neair as I oaln tell I diotn't think I received amy more. Q. W^e they very severe? A. They was quite. Q. Didn't bireaJv the sikim or oanise the blood' to run? A.- No. isir. Q. If the record sayisi you received fonr you claiim the record is wrong? A. I cooiilidnt swear to iti exactly; I don't know. Q. Were yon ever charged with lying, a rettioirb malde against you for that? A. Yes, aalri. Q. More than once? A. I don't remenbieir how mainjjr times. Q. Wasi that repiort trniie? A. Yee), ,8011. Q. Eeportl made againist you fop nsilag profane language? A. Yes, sir. . ' ' Q. There wiaei one riepoirt, of thatj kind? A. I don't know what I got the reports for, bnt I ha^e need it since I have been here. Theodoms OiynthuiS Doug-lasis, beiD(g duly affirmed, tes'tafled : Examined by Jnidlge GiUbesb : ^ ' The same stiattement was made tO) this witness as to former witnesses. Q. What is your narta^nality? A. I was bom in Athenis, Greece; I have been educated in the United Sbaiteisi. Q. WTiere? A. Prinoipally at Yale college. Q. Did you ever graduate ait Yale? A. I did not ga-aduate; I remiaained there three years and a 'half. Q. You were in the senior claisB? A. Yes^ sir. Q. When were you sent to the Elmnra Keformatory? A. Seventeenth of , April of this' year. Q. From what place? A; City of New York. Q. For what offence? A. G-raind larceny, second degree. Q. Did yon plead guilty to the charge? A. I did. Q. Had yon ever been convicted of an'y offense before tliat? A. never. Q. Or imprieoned hefore? A. Never. U18 Q. Wliat was 'ii&e protperty that) you took? A. The tiechnicaj charge tihat ^ras made agadnerti me waal ttie nemoVal olf two rafe bookB fnoan the Astor 'Hlbrary. Q. That wais the sole ohaiPge upcmi wlhiclhl yoiul were etenit here? A. It wa& Q. Since you have been in tlie reformatory hai^ you had any dMoTilty in getting along? A. WeU, no, I cam't siay that I have; T haie i-ecei\td occasionally a report of no particular importance, than occasionally received what is conmionly termed a serious report, a three doUar chocolate, a three-mark chocolate. Q. TVTiat was it claimed yoQ had done ? A. Insubordinartion. Q. Have you ever been punished while you were here ? A. >«'ever. Q. MTiat can you say with reference to inmates', getting along easily if they wiU observe the rules or try to observe the rules end try to perform what is required of them ? A. That is a very jieculiar question; no two men ane alike; one man might get along tinder certain circumstances where another man wouldn't; 1 iia-\e experienced no difficulty; it may be owing, to some extent, ui the position which I hold. Q. What is the position which you hold ? A. I am at present editor of the Weekly and Monthly Summary. Q. You reply, T presume, refers somewhat to the difficulties A^ hich editors find when editing jmpers of a puj)lic character ? A. None whatever. Q. What do you mean by saying that your difficulties may eriginate somewhat from the peculiar nature, or may have been can fed somewhat by the peculiar nature of your employment ? A. I think you misunderstood what I said; my employment made it easier for me. Q. For the season, I suppose, that if you thought that there was likely to be trouble arising in any particular quarter by a jurticular article, I will say, in your paper, you could remove or dlspoise of the tmuble ? A. Xot at all; the idea is this: I am sub- ject to but one authority, the superintendent himself; for that reason, if I do get into trouble, it is through something which I ha^^e done and for which the superintendent makes the charge against me; when I first came here I was under another; it was at that time I received the report of which I have spoken; the first-class report. ', Q. For how long a time have you been editor of the paper ? A. I have been editor of the Monthly Summary for five or six months, five months and a half; of the Weekly Summary about one week. 1119 By Mr. litchfleld: Q. I imderstand yon are noT under the ardinaJY and nsual discipline, the same as the others ? A. I anii, but the depart- ment is a department of itself; there are but three persons work- ing in it ; I receive my orders direct from the superintendent and submit all my work to him. By Dr. Smith: Q. What were you doing when you wea^ reported ? A. It was the result of a misunderetanding; the superintendent told me he had given me charge of the Monthly Summary, and the person who had had charge of it told me to do something which I father thought wasn't proper to do, and I refused tO' do it at the timje, until I had Se^n the superintendent; inasmuch aS' he had not been officially notified that I had taken charge of the monthly, he rfrported me for it, for insiibordination to the superior offloer; the superintendent was not here at the time; the report was not taken up and investigated; that was owing to the fact I did not ask to have it investigated; it was a matter that I thought it would be best to let drop. Q. The truth is your employment is of such a character that you don't come under the monitor system ? A. I do not. Q. Do YOU drill in the regiment ? A. I did for .six months. Q. While you drilled in the regiment were you subject to the ' oflBcers over you and liable to get reported for insubordination ? A. Yes, sir. Q. The same as any other ? ^A. The same as anybody else. ' Q. Yon had six months experience of the regular every da.v working of the institution? A. In that one respect. Q. Were ;^otu then conniected with the paper? A. I was. Q. That did free you after ail from some of that monitor siys- tean? A. It did. Q. Have you been conmected with the paper ever since you came? A. Ever ^ce.I'oaime. Q. Yon' nevem have been quite the same asi the ordinary and every day man who comes here? A. Allow me to malce on sligiht mjodiflcation of my statement; I say I have been connected with the Summary •evet isiinoe I came;- that is 'not quite true; when I came here I was placed in the editoiial-room and asked to write' somethinig; I wrote something, whether it gave dissatisfaction I ' do pot know, but I was removed from the editorial-room and given other work; I was put in what is known) as the cane-seat Q. Then you were occupying the same position as any other man who arrives? A. Ye^ sir. 1120 Q. How long dM you remain in Uiait}. situatiom? A. If I remem- ber rightly it was about three we^ka ^ Q. During that time yon had monitoirs over yon? A. The same as anybody else. Q. What is your observation in regard to the monitors^ as to the difference between the inmate monitor and the citizen moini- tor? A. Well, there is a great difference; a veiry ^eat diiference; I do not know that I can make myself dear without using too many words. Q. Try and describe the difference. Mr. Stariichfleld. — Use all the woirdls yon please. The Ti\itnesis. — Without taking up too much of your valuable time is what I intended to have said. What I was about to say \\'as this : A citizen ofScev is a x>erson who is generajily impartial. He has no intereisits either way ; that is, he isi not personally intei'- ested in the man whom he is reporting, either to promote his interests or to do Mm injury. The initnate offioer, who has gen- erally been id the institution at least six months previous to his uistaJlment as an officer, has contracted friendships, intimates, various acquaintances, and he would naturally cater to his lilies and dislikes in reporting those under him, and as to whether this tendency to cater to his likes and dislikes is at all manifested in his actions, I am flnnlr convinced that it is. ' Q. Do you wish to say anything more on that same subject while yon are on it? A. Yes; I do; since I have been in the insti- tution I have devoted some little time to the study of crimtuology and writing on the system, and I have often thought of the moni- tor system; it seems to me that the only solution of the problem Is this; of course I recognize the fact the State could not go to the expenisie of employing a large number of men to taJie the places of inmates who seem to perform efficient service, and for that reason the old system could not possibly be abolished, and yet if it could not be abolished! why could iihere not be placed over a certain number of inmate monitops some man who is i)eT- fectly impartial and disdnterested in the entire affair, and make it 'tnoumbent upon the one who does the reporting to obtain the signature of this superior officer; he could, for instance, make — well, you might call it a preliminary examination of the charges which is made against the inmate; if he authorizes the report to be sent in he could sign it, and then if the inmate whoi has been reported denies it he could return it, the notification of the repprt which he has received, he could return that notification' to the colonel or superintendent, I should have said; then the colonel, who investigates the matter, could investigate it; he would have then several witnesses to the entire affair ; I haven't been placed 1121 xactly in alpoisi'tion to see mtich. of ihe momitor sjysteini, but I nave seen sercraJ imstances where men Lave beeni repoirted for offenses whUsh they did no* oommit, several inisftaoQces from inmatea. By Mr. Stancbfleld: Q. Aa to jhe efficiency of the inmate as against the citizen monitor? A. An answer to that question would ' dtepend upon AAliat you term " eflaciencyi'Vwhat would you term efficiency ? ' Q. I wouldn't want to define it. A. "With regard to the ^stem itself, what would you term eflaciency ? ,- Q. Whether an inmate monitor, having served among th]e od polloi himself, when he goes upon the platform as a monitor,, wouldn't be better acquainted with their ways, their! conduct, their tricks, vices, an.d be more alert, if honest,^and a better moni- tor than a citizen who wasn't posseissed of that Knowledge and information ? A. Your idea is, then, it requires — Q. (Interrupting.) lam asking you; I don't know anything about it. A. If that is j I shloiuld certaiinly Biay. — Q. I don't put it in that way. A. You speak of this man hav- ing received his qualifications from having been one of the oi poUoi himself. Q. Workin.g in the ranks the s'ame as you did for three weeks, becoming acquainted with all the resources that there- are and the tricks of people who are endeavoring to evade theii* task, whether, in your judgment, such a man who has been through that experience, wouldn't make a better and more efficient monitor, than a citizen who hadn't that knowledge or information ? A. Perhaps he might, bi).t is there not something else to be considered? Q. I didn't want you to speculate; I didn't know but you might istate from the experience, something you had witnessed upon that subject or know; I don't care about your theoretical opinions on tie subject ? A. I .could not ispeak from experience. By Dr. Smith: Q. You report three instances where you know the report was wrong; have you any proof that was maliciously wrong ? A; No iK>siti've proof, but I have reason to suspect it was wrong, and it was the result of maliciousness. By Judge Grilbert: Q. Did it resiult in severe or great injure- to the inmate ? A. Oh, no; mere trifle; the offense might give a man a second or third-class report, .always small reporfs; no serious charge 11^ By Dr. Smith: Q. Your plan would be to have a mixed system, inmate moni- ters for immediate care and watchfulness and a citizen monitor, having charge of a number of those ? A. Exactly. By Mr. Litchfield: ' Q. Asfsuming the State can not afford the expense of citizen •monitors all through ? A. Yes. ^ Q. Did I understand you correctly you prefer the citizen moni- tor all through ? A. I would. By Dr. Smith: Q. Wouldn't you get the excellencies of both systems if you had it mixed, the minute knowledge of the inmate monitor and the supei'vision of a citizen monitor ? A. The fact that it is possible for an inuuite to become a superior in position offers a certain incentive to the inmate to live in accordance with the rules and regulations of the institution; that would be one of the benefits of the system; if, for instance;, a certain number of men ijcted as monitors and had superiors, much of the damage which I think is at present under the present sysitem would be abolished. Q. If the malicious or vicious action of them could be taken out of it they would be the best monitors ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Provided they had supervision that would make them cautious about all the work? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You consider citizen monitors more impartial than, inmate monitors? A. From the! fact he is disimteresited; he is inifceirested in no particular inmate; he is unde!r no obligati'ansi to any par- ticular inm.ate; no inmate is under any oibligaitiom; toi him. Q. Have you observed enough of the workings under the two classes of monitors ito say firom your oiwn observatdon whether the discipline is better under the one; under the citizen monitor, or better under the inmate monitor? A. Well, no^; I can not say that ; I haveni't been broiught into oomtact very much with the men. Q. My question refers not' toi the disicipline in the ranks of the regiment}, but to the discipline outside of that, in the shops or elsewhere, where the monitoiria do their duty? A. In regaird to the work in the shops I have had! no experience at all with the exception of three weeks; I received no reports during the three weeks and performed the task. Q. You can not answer that questioni flrom your own observa- tiom? A, No, sir. / 1123 By Juidge Gilbert: Q. Your idea i^ lOm; that titers should be a supervisor, officer or board -that shoiuld examine thesie reports before any acbioto was taken iipon thlem, ajt leaisit iuj such oases' as would be liteiy to reeult in an inijirry 'to .the.inmate? A. No; yon don't quite grasp my idea; I will nioit say anything about the repoartimg system; that is, the' investigation of reportsi as If is done tohday. Q.- Thjat would ciome after the report from this superviteihg board? A. Not a board but a single officer. Q. You IMnk tha* wOuH be better? A. I certainly do. Q. As I uMderattaind it, your idea is this; that thilsi inmate moni- tor systein, from^ tte faot that every inmaite is seeking to advance his own interest sio f ar as a speedy release is oancemed, ft-om your experienice or obsiervatiom, you think that bie iis too lajpt to try to advamice bimself to the injury of other inmatesi? A. Well, no; I do not really think the men, aJ great majority of the men here, are inspired or moved by any such loifty motives'. By Dr. Smith): Q. The idea the judge has, they are stimulated to| their action by a desire to get out audi they take advantage of i-tl tol 'do harm to others? A. You speak of reporting a main. , Q. Yon said they were stimulated by a desire ta become! moni- tors? A. Oh, yes. Q. A» monitors do they anticipate any advantage in the way of pfpomotion or getting out of the inBti«itutLon by falise reports? A. I do not think so; the only advantages which I can see which Would accrue to the otne who holds such a position would be the^; that he would be exempt from, the reports of petty officers; he would receive reports then only from his superior^ and the higher he rises in the ranks the less number of superiors he would have, ^ and therefore the less reports he would receive; when he has reached the upper rung of the ladder he can receive no report unless it is a report received from some citizen officer. By Judge Gilbert: Q. From your observation and experience what have you to say in reference to the educational department or methods ? A. I think it is very good; I havei acted as teacher; when. I first came here I taught three or four men to speak English, one a Slav, one an Arab, and I took several foreigners who understood no English at all ; finally they got in other classes, and since then I have been teacher in the regular class of letters, and I think the system a most excellent one. 1124 Q. What would you say in reference to this system of rulea, etc., that is, the, nnmerous rules wdth reference to that class of inmates, being diflficult for them to get along where they do not understand our language ? A. Well, it is quite difficult foa* them to get along, and I can recall several inBtances whei-e my men, that is, the men who were receiving instructions from me siome live or six months ago, received reports owing to the fact they didn't understand the English language. Q. The greater the numjber of rules the more embarrasisment ? A. Exactly. Q. TVTiat have you to say with reference to the manner in which you have observed that the superintendent treated the inmates ? A. Well, mj' experience has been very limited; all I can^ say of the superintendent's treatment of the inmates, purely the result of personal experience, is the way in which he has treated me; I think he has treated me very fairly. Q. What have vou to sav in reference to the manner in which other officers have treated inmates since you have been, here ? A. I might make almost the same answer; I can only judge from the treatment I have received, of course, imless you specify some particular officer I could not answer you the question. Q. Have you had any experience in connection with the trades 01' trade schools ? A. No, sir; I have visited the tfade schools, particularly drawiug classes, on Uxo or three ocoasions, and intended to visit them this evening, but I have never been in, any of the classes and know nothing about the instruction; I think, though, that it is very good, comparing it with what I have read with regard to the instruction and system in vogue at otiier institutions of a similar nature; I think it compares very favorably. Q. You can't speak with any degree oi -accuracy from experi- ence ? A. Certainly not. Q. You have never been in any other institution. ? A. Other than what I have read. ■i Bv 3Ir. Litchfield: ' IJ! Q. You are making a study of pendlogy ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you thought at all about the modes of punishment used here in 'this institution, and if so, which A\ould you think would be "he moie efficacious, the paddling or the mode of confining a man in the solitary, chained there ? A. Thai is a peculiar question; no two men are wholly alike; I am firmly convinced there aa-e men within the T\alls of this institution who could be more effectively punished by paddling than any other way; it is ioke one method of punishment which would ever produce any lasting impression 1125 upon them; there are others to paddle whom would be very detri- mental to them; I haven't mingled very much with the men; of course I see them; watch them, study them in my own way, and ' pass judgment upon them with regard to their pectdiar psycho- logical isltatus, as it were; the statement which I have just made -is the outcome of that observation. Q. About the proportion between the two clasises. of men, those whose s,usceptibilities are in their hides and those whose suscepti- bilities are more mental, what proportion exists in this institu- tion ? A. It would be a very difficult matter for, me to say. Q. The .same niunber of each ? A. Oh, no; I should certaiuly say that a great majority of men] htere ought not to; be punished; that is, by paddling. By Dr. Smith: Q. Three hundred and sixty-five, to 1,450, three out of every -fourteen ? A. Possi'bly that would be the proportion. Q. The puTiisihimenrt of one a day yoiu ^ wouldn't regard as extreme ? A. I would not; in, fact, 1 think it is' very mild. By Mr. Litchfl^eild : Q. The paddling of one a dlay? A. Eadldlinig one a .day. % Tfpi SmSttjln: Q. It would be atauti the propointiiioiii thatt wouM be benefited' by that methiad of dlilsicipline? A- Yea By Judge Gilbert : Q. I suppoisie yooir views wiouM be somiewihiajfc modified if you had 'had soime actual eixperimce in the bath-rooto? A. They i -uinddubtediy wouM have been. "^ Q. Have you ercr had corpooM punlilslhmeiBit lapplieid to you? A. Since I have bean here? Q. At all in your life asl a school ibioy? A. JSTot that I recollect of; my parents idled when I was veapyl sWajIl dhild and I don't '•recoUeot of ever (havilng been puiulilslhed in any wiay or restricted in any way. Q It is entirely theoreetiicial wiitih you? A. I have witnessed no punlislhment. -,^^ By Judge Gilbert : O Take war own temiperam^enrtl, dilspoistiitiioaii am'd spirit, do you- thSk corpoml punishment would improve you any? A. No; I do m±; I «ii^ ^* ^'°** ™^^^ ™^ ^*^ ^^**^' 1126 Q. Havea'ti youi am idea fttMn yotar reading and your obeerva/- tiooQi in referenice to thie miatiber tlliat wiltih. a parsoB of spirilt, a person who prides himsejlf upojn Msi mainihoodi, would) be likely to haYC the same feeliici|g about corporial pTinliisttumeinrt) that you have yourself? 'A. I do possibly, with now and thetn; anl exceptjoii. Ajdjoumed to Thuradiay, Decamlber 14, 1893, 9 ai. m. Thuaisday, Deoeimibeir 14, 1893, 9 a. m, William L. Corley, beuig duly sworn, ttestifled: Exairmimed by Judge Gilbeonb : The saame stiatenaent wasi majde to thlsl witjiiess as to forjuer watneis|ses. Q. Where were you sent from? A. New York city. Q. For what offense? A. EeceiTing stolen' goodsi. Q. Did yiou plead. guMty? A. I did. Q. Had you eTer been conviatedl of any offense before that? A. No, eir. Q. Never bad been in prison before? A. No^ sir. Q. When you were brougblti to the refiormartjoiry were you brougiht be(tai»e 'Mrij Buockway? lA. I wajsj Q. Did he make ilnqutrieB of you ini reference toyoun own hifl- tory, conditiofni, etc.? A. Yea, sir. Q. Whait wials hds beajring /on tbefatim^t towainds) you? A. Favorable; treated me preitty fair. Q. Since you hajve been in the redfoounatoiry tove you been puniahed? A. No. Q. Have you hfl;d any difficulty, any trouble in obeying the rules of the refoirmiatoay, or perifiarmiing youm 'tasks, or atnytlhiing of thiart; kinid? A, I hiald a little di£fljcail% in) doing my task in the foundry. Q. When the matter, was brougbt to th^ attention of Mr. Brockway, whaitever was wrong about it was it corrected? A. None that I rememlber. Q. How did you get along? A. I bad tol strive along the best I possibly could; I applied to Mr. Broekway to tlaike me out of the foundry; he told me wbeni I received the blue suit he would take me ou-t of the foundry; I received "the blue suit anidl beSngi up in the hospital he thouiglht I wasn't oapajble of being taken out of the foundry, and' he left me there a little longer, anid a couple of weeks ago he took me out of tihe ftranldry; ini the month of, June I i^eceived labor repoiFt, wMch, I #iii!nik,| I dhjouid not lia.ve 1127 got; Mr. Hoppe aaad he would see wihiaifc hie coiuM dlo; titbepe were two rnem/'a work, and I was geijtingi tiue reportl for the two. Q. When were you sent to the refoaMatoiry? A. Novemlbei' 19, 1892. Q. You haven'* been in the red suit at aM? A. Noi, etiip. Q. Advanced tlo the blue sudlt? A. Yea, sdr. Q. WhaA have ywi to isay for or laigiainis* the offlceim, etitihec Mr. Brockway oca any other officer? A. I have miothiiiig to say againist Mr. Brockway; he has trealted me fajiai amid sqiuiare dur- ing my stay ini the ikiBtitlatioin. Q. What idia you slay with iP^epemoe to any oif the okimateBi if they will obey the rules and regulations ? A. I say they receive the same treatment I did if they obey them properly, but there is a lot here, I have seen them in the foundry, where the toughest class are suppased to be, they said they would be '' God damned if, they worked," and the consequence was they were bicought down, in the bath-room and probably tlogged or something, I don't know what was done with them, when they refused to work. -Q. Do you attend the night schools ? A. Yes, sir. Q. WTiat have you to say with reference to whether you have improved or n,ot in education ? A. I have improved wonderfully. Q. What with nefeajehce to your employmenit; have you leaiW-Gd a trade ? A. I have. Q. Had you any trade before you came here ? A. I had a pretty fair Jiuowledge of it. Q. Whait? A. Engineer. Q. Upon a railroad ? A. Yes, sir; locomotive erigineer; I was employed by the New York Central and Hudson River railroad. Q. What trade are you learnin.g here ? A. Molder; I am now in the machinist class in the day time. Q. So that, if you were discharged to-day, you can say that you have improved in your education and also in your knowledge of the' trade ? A. I can. By Mr. Litchfield': Q. Have you been reported ? A. I have been reported where I should not have been reported, and I have sent back a report t ' , Q. Wiiere were you sent fromj? A. New York city. Q. For what offense? A. Grand larceny. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had yoiu ever been Q. What ? A. Bricklaying and plastering. Q. Do you claim that you have been improved in this respect, that you have, since you have been here, learned a useful trader ? A. Trade and education,. Q. How does your present physical condition compare with your physical condition when you entered the reformatory ? A. About the same; I have never been sick. Q. Have you any complaint to make in reference to the manner in which you have been reported or in relation to the manner in 1133 which, you have been treated in relatiom to those reports ? A. I don't tlilnk I have; I desierved the reports. Q. Did you, at any time, ask to have the reports investigated or any of them ? A. I never did, because I fully deserved them. Q. Do you say now that you deserved the punishment that you received ? A. As it was, I did. ' Q. You haven't any complaint to make in relation to that ? A. No, sir. i By Dr. Smith: Q. Why were you punished, because you draDk the alcohol or because you didn't teU who gave it to you ? A. Because I draiik it; it was agaiust the rules to obtain it. Q. Not because you didn't inform of those/ who gave it to you ? A. No; it was found out right away that I got it. Q. What reduced you to the red grade first ? A. The first was school; I couldn't get along in school; I was put in "I," only the class waJs too high for me. Q. What reduced you to the second grade ? A. This alcohol deal. By Judge Gilbert : Q. (Note isihownj wWDjelss) Looik, ait! that note aad see if it ia in your hajudwritdlnig? A. Yes, sir. Q. Abtout Junie 11, 1892, wasi a) irelport' made aigaauMtl you charg- ing you with stealing molasses from inmate D. R, and taldng it to the bake shop? A. Yes-, siir. Q. Did ATOu deny thaitl report)? A. I ddld. Q. Waei it invesitigditied? A. ^No, slir; thte' officer I received it fnona the day befoaiej so it waism't ilnfveistigated ; I was called lip, but could no* be i|iiivesit%ajtiedl on acoounrtl 0(fl his leaving here. Q. It was laJloweid ta standi against; yoiu? A. Yes, sor; I think it did; I am no* sure alblouit it. Q. You sadld a moment ago thaitl you never denied any report; tliiatt the repioirits wenei always just? A. This report was lafA investigated. Q. Y9U did deny it in writing? A. I dldn'tl thitak oflf the fact tben, biit the report was not investigated then; it was not canceled. Q. Youii- ansiwer to my laisti questdion isi thiait you didn't think of this ri^ont when you saidl that you ules-er haid de|n)iied any -reports becatise they were true? A. Yes, sir. Q This report you .ddld deny anidl ttey failed to invesitigatie it ftor the reason that the officer who had charge of the matter had left the reBtarmiaitoiy the day before? A. Yes, sir. 1184 Q. Didn't lie return ? A. No, sir; lie was dischaxged; Mr. Camp- bell, I think it was. Q. Was liiait report true that you did steal molasBes? A. No, sir; it isn't true. Q. Don't you think it was nmjust for the officiaJe to allow a ohairge of .theft to stiamd ajgalilnst you upon the records here when, in) fa>cit, you were nlot a. thief? A. Weili, yes; the man who stole the molasses received the saimc report. Q. Now, upon reflectioii, when your attention is called to that tranisaetioai, you will mot rcow say that you were treated^ always treated justly? A. As it was, the report could mot be inivesti- gated then. Q. But my questtion is at to whetlhefr or not youi now consildieir It was just or Tight for ti^e authjonities to allow a record to be made against yon here iShowing that you had committed a theft? A. As regards that case, it was. Q. I think it is proper now you shjould be alloweid to state, anld it iShouM go upon the record if it is true, that you were not guilty of that; you should be permitted to explainl it; have you aiuy explanation to maike? A. Yes, sSr. Q. Make you statement ? A. Forty-six hundred and sixty- two, IMever, came from the dining-room with a can of molassesi; both of us worked! in the bake-shop; Mr. Campbell seen him have the molasses and he reported the two of us for stealing it; he only had one can; I caane in from dinner at the time; we went downstairs together and he reported the twO' of us; I did not steal the molasses and knew nothinig about it. Q. Did yon steal any portion of it? A. Noi, sir. Q. Had nothing whatever to do with it? A. Nothing whatever. Q. Was it a citizen or inmate officer that made the charge against you? A. Citizen offioer. Q. Wasoa't a report also made against yon on the ninth, of October, 1892, charging you with putting bread in the oven when yon hadn't a piroper fire to bake, and when asked about it, why you did so, said never had a, fire there while in charge of the bakery, this mominig caaised th.e loss of 'tHventy-eight pounds of bread; was such a charge madfe against you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Didn't you deny it? A. I denied the fact that the bread was lost, but the bread wasi baked and was used. Q. The record shows that report stands against you? A.. It did. Q. As a chocolate report? A. It did. Q. Do you think you were justly, treated in reference) to that? A. The fire was not properly made. [ Q. Do you think now you were properly diairged' or justly accused? A. I don't think so; noi 1135 Q. Your attentiotQ wasn't called to tliat^ when you statedi upon your diiireot exaaninationi tUati you thought you had always been juMy used by the offtcecra? A. As I uudensitood it, reports whioh I hare been pumsihed' for; I have not been punished for this fLmt-olass repoiFt. Q. When you said you had always been justly treated you m.'g'ant you had not been actually punished or loist your grade by reason of them ? A. No, sir; neyer did. Q. You had been reduced t'o the red grade? A. For .this alcohol j^portj. Q. Had you ever been reduced to the red grade more than once? A. Twice. Q. "What were you reduced to the red grade the first tkne? A. School and demeanor reports, and the second timie for this alcohol. Q. At the time you were accused of atealiuig molasses and at" the time you were accused of neglect of duty in the babe-shoip, were you actually trying to do the. best you could? A. I always did. Q. Yet you were, as you claim, unjustly repotted? A. For these two offenses, I think it was. Q. Hoiw many blows were you struck in the bath-ro'omj? A. Five or six, I think. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Is Meyer here yet, that you complained a!bout? A. Yes:, sir. Q. Wliat is hisi number? A. Four thousand six hundred and sixty-two; he workis in the officers' dining-room now. Frank Van Voorhis, being dnly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge G-ilbert: The same istatement was made to this witness as to former witnesses. Q. What is your ooniseouti^^ number? A. Five 'thousand one hundred and forty-iseven. Q. Where were you sent from to the reformatory? A. New York -city. Q. When? A. On the twenty-eighth of February. Q. What year? A. Eighteen hundred and ninety-two. Q. For what offense? A. Attempt at gi-and larceny. Q. Was it true? A. Yes, sir. Q. You plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. Had you ever been' convicted of any offense before that? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. What? A. I was sent to the house of refuge in New York for not a*tenidinlg to school. 113B Q. Was that the otnly time toii were ever in prieon before tou came here? A. Yes, sir. Q. TVTiat ^as it you attempted to steal ? A. Watch and chain. Q. From someone in the street ? A. No; from the gentleman r wa s working for. Q. When you came here you had an intervie'w with Mr. Brock- way ? A. Yes, sir. ^ ' Q. How did he treat you at that interview ? A. Treated me all right. , Q. What instruction or advice did he give you, if any ? A. He told me the rules of the institution, and how to abide by them. Q. ^Tiat did he say the result would be if you did abide by tbem ? \. That I could make a parole in one year. Q. I see now you are in the red suit ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How soon after you came here were you reduced to the red suit ? A. About nine months. Q. Were you in the red suit before this investigation com- menced ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you state when it was you were reduced to the red-suit grade ? A. Last October, last year. Q. Had you gained the black-suit grade before the investigation commenced ? A. Yes, sir. 'i!' Q. Did you continue in that grade untU after it commenced ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you reduced again to the red suit before the investiga- tion commenced ? A. Yes, sir. 'Q. You are now in that grade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What have you to s^y with reference to the mailner in which you have been treated by the officers since you have been ' an inmate ? A. Never done me any harm ; what I have got I brought on myself. ' Q. Do you mean to say you haven't any complaint to maJte against the manner in which you have been treated ? A. No, sir. Q. Have you ever been taken to the bath-room and punished ? .\. I have been taken to the bath-room, but never was punished. Q. Admonished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You tried, I suppose, to be better ? A. Yes, sir; I did for a time, but didn't succeed, though. Q. You lost your grade, as you have stated ? A. Yes, sir. Q. With reference to your duties in school, what have you to say whether you have improved or not in your education, ? A. I expect to go in the highest class here next' term. Q. You have been gradually advanced in school until you are about prepared to enter the highest class ? A. Yes, s.ir. 1337 Q. 'WTiat occupation had you before you were sent to the reform- atory ? A. Plastering. Q. Have you been learning a trade since you have been here ? A. Been working at plastering since I have been here. Q. Have you the trade pretty well learned? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that, if you were now discharged, you could say you have not only improved in your education but also improved in your knowledge of a trade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do yo'u n.ow concede that all the charges that have been made -against you or reports that have been made against you were justly made ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you, at any time, make any complaint that they were not true or justly made ? A-. iS'o, sir; only two or three of them; that is all. Q. "Upon those occasions did you have a hearing ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yon applied for a hearing ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you obtained it ? A. Yes, sir. , Q. An.d the result was satisfactory to you ? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You have been l^ere long enough to know the differencei between citizen monitors and inmate monitors ? A. Yes, sir. ■ Q. Which do you get alon,g with the easiest ? A.' The citizen monitors. . Q. Get along better with citizen monitors ? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Why is that ? A. I don't know, sir; some of them will try to put you down; some lof the iramatJe monitore will try to put ywi dawn. Q. They have prejuidliiees? A. Yes', mc. • Q. Do molt the citizen- inomitors) try toi put you down' ailso? A. No, Sr. By Dt. Smi1±- : Q. Isn't it beaaaiise tihe inoniatie miomjltlofrl knows more aJbout what lis going on -than the citizen? A. Yes, sair. Q. He is up to the tiricks of the boys more!? A. Yesi, sir. Q. That is' the reaistm you doaa't like tlhem? A. Yesi, sir. q!' Any special parttilaMl'ty? A. No, «; mot tlhat I have seeni Q. The immiate monitoi^ a,re perfectly ilmpai'ilai' inl reporting? ' Q They don^t report one man more than anothe'r? A. No, sir. q' It is beoajuse they are quicker? A. Yesi efiir. 143 1138 By Juidge Gilbert : Q. Do you recollect a report was made agaiuBt you the SOth day of June^ 1892, foi' talking iinl sohool to Na 5142, HiU, during recitatdomsi? A. Yes, eSu. \ Q. Do you remeonber that you denied' ttet ctaiige? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you aisk. for a hJeaPtnig? ^ A. Yes, sir. Q. It wiaa given you? A. Yea, sir. Q Tlhe decision was tihait Uie reporft sihofuld stand as true? A. Yea, ear. Q. If tihat was true why did you d^y ilt? A. I deny it yetl, I wasn't taUdlng to that man ajt alL Q. Thajt report was mob true? A. No, sir. Q. You were found guilty of tlhat whidh you were imnocent of? A. Yea, sir. Q. Do you now claim thait was just? A. No, sir; that wasn't just Q. This isi quite a amous report lafelainst you, what is called the chocolate reportt; they issiued in connection with this a chocolate report? A. Yes, sir. Q. That was an importlamt report? A. Yes, air. Q. Would reduce you in grade? A. No^ sir. Q. It didn't follow? A. No, sir. Q. Can you teU wRy you were reduicfijd in girade two different times? A. Loss of marks. Q. If you had been, truthfully reportedl or honestly reported, then yoiu wouldn't have lost so many marks ;aoid, perhaps, would not have been rediuced in gnade, would you? A. Yes, sir. Q. Now, can you say that you Ihave not beem .reduced in grade because of the unjust marks made against you? A. No, Sir. Q. It may be that you are now in this low gradtei because of tlie unjust manner in which you have been marked or judged? A. No, sir. Q. You were piroperly reduced in grad©, notwithstamidiing the fact ffiat those charges wMcib you refer to were not true? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were yoa ever sent out to work when you claimed that Tou were sick? A. Yes, sdsr. Q. When they were cihargiQ'g you witth maJiingering? A. Yes, sir. Q. And they ouglrt ndt to harre sent you out? A. Yes, silr. Q. Was there more -tihan one of those oocamwusi? A. There were two or more of those occasions. Q. Did you refuse to go out? A. No, sir. i Q. You weren'* marked for that? A. I was marked 'once for it. 1139 Q. Is that oaie of the thfiee times that you refer to wihea you said there -w^ce two or thiree tiiuies that you unjustly marked? A. Yes, sir. Q. Hayem't you tried to escajpe sdnice this investigajtion cwu- menced? A. Yest, sir. Q. Did you succeed iii gettinjg out of the refbirmatOTy? A, Yes, sir. _. Q. For Jiow long a time did you have your llTaerty? A. One iiiglht. Q. You were brought back? A. Yes, sir. Q. If you had been so kindly treated! here and are so satislied wit]), the manner in which the officers are 'ttreating you, why did you try to escape? A. T had to go or else I would have got a red suit, just the same asi I have noiw. Q. Your condncit/had been snch thaitl you knew jcm had reached a point where you woiuld have to^ be reduced, to the red' suit? A. The other two men had gone, and if they got away I woiidd have been rediuced anyway on account of tlheir getting out where I was w'orkinig. <" Q. You and' the other two were confederates? A. Yes, sir. Q. The three had planned to escape? A. Yesi, sir. Q. And that, inasmuch as the scheme had been carried as far tis it had that it would not be any worse for you if you ooanpleh d the job? A. IS'o, sdir. Q. You wrote a letter toi the committee, didWt you? A. Yes, sir. Q. In which you statled substantially wihat you have stated upon the stand here with reference to the kind manner in which you had been treated; when/ you wrote that did you write i* with the expectaitiota that you might receive favors* from the officers? A. No, sir. Q. If you would compliment therai?, A. No, sir. Q. Or speak kindly in reference to them? A. No, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Did yon show that letter to any of the officers' before you sent it to us? A. No, sir. Q. How were you punished when you came back from your escape? A. I was put down in the solitary for one day. Q. Have you ever been paddled? A. No, sir. By Judge Gilbert: Q. When yon were put in the solitary were you chained? A. No, isir. Q. Were you ever in the solitairy before that? A. No', sir. 1140 Oscar Hoppe, reeaJled: By Mr. Litclhjfleld: (^ We W0uld like to have you explain liliest* repotrts? A. The offenses are dlTided into thi'ee clasisesi; Qnst, second and third class; the amonnt of fines which a man must have in order that, his record for a month be affected is -one dollar; anything less than one dollar doeg not affect his record; and the pink reponb isi tllie third-class report coverinj^- most trivial offenises, and the fine fw such a report is fifteen cents; therefore, a man may have six of those in a month before his record is affected; the yellow is a second-class repoi't for which thirty cents is fined ; and the bi'owii or chocolaite is first class, usually costing about a doilair, some- times more, depending uponi the nature of the offense.' ' (}. It can be increased? A. It can be increaiseid. Q. To what extent? A. I tliink as high as nine dollars lias been charged for that single offense; the gray report is o^ne used for labor offenses; it is of the siame value as a second-olaiss report. By Di*. Smith: Q. la the chocolate report the sum tolbal of the oithers? A. No, sir; a chocolate report covers the most serious offense' that- can be committed in' the inistitution. Q. That coverai an offense in itself? A. Yes, sir. Q. It is not a isumming up of the others? A. No, sir; I wish to add that the offenses which are printed on here are those which most frequently occur, and they are printed to facilitate in making out the r^ort, instead of writing it, and in each case the officer only has to check the offense. By Judge Grilbert: ' Q. Have you a list of the entii'e offenses which an inmiate may be charged mth in the refomiato'ry? A. No, isir; because offenses may be committed tO-day which never- have been committed before. Q. A list of the rules? A. We have a copy of the rules a^nd regulations which covers the conduct of the prisoner ais it should be. By Dr. Smith: Q. Are these offenses printed, and posted anywhere so that every inmate knows them ? A. There accompanies each offense a. notice to the prisoner; evei'.i' time he is reported a notice of his offense is sent to him, and that is sent on a similar blank. 1141 Q- He is not fuimislied with that when he first comes in, ai printed form. ? A. Not tills report, hut he is furnishfed a copy o£ the rnlea and regulations. Q. A list of th6 offenses he might be punished for ? A. No. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Has a copy of the rules and regulations been introduced in proof ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How large an account must the inmate run before he loses hift grade ? A. Thab depends greatly upon circumstances; the rule is that a man is liable to be reduced from one grade • to another if for three consecutive months he has made an imperfect record, any serious offense showing dishonesty, or any criminal offense he may commit will at once reduce him to that grade. Q. How high must his account nln for oifenses specifled in these reports before he will be reduced for those offenses to a lower grade ? A. There is no fixed rule about it. Q. Then why is it measured in dollars and cents ? A. Because the law of 1889 jirovides that a certain percentage of the earn- ings of the prisoners in the institution may be disbursed to them at the time of their release, and that for any misconduct in the prison, finest may be instituted; we credit each man eadx day on the ledger page with the amount of work he does in dollars and cents; we charge against that any fines against Mm. Q. Do I understand you to say that if- a man's account runs in this manner up to nine dollars or eighteen dollars that that has nothing whatever to do \\'ith the change of his grade ? A. Oer- tainly it has something to do; I can't tell you at what particular time or what particular amount of dollars and cents a man has to lose in order to be reduced to a lower grade; there is no such - standard. Q. So far as the dollar and cent account is concerned, that is a matter that atfects his account generally with the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. So that, whether he is reduced or not, at the end of his con- finement he loses according to the fines tha/t have been imposed ' in this manner against him; that is, suppose that if his conduct had been perfect to the end of his confinement and he was entitled to the sum of ^flOO, then there would be deducted, under your rules, an amount which might equal the entire sum ? A. I don't quite understand it or you don't grasp what I said. Q. I want to see whether or not the inmate is really punished in two ways; first, he is punished by losing his grade; next he is punished by losing, the money that he would otherwise be entitled 1142 to ? A. No; he isn't punished by losing; he simply haanfc eai'ned the monej' he might have earned. Q. He has earned it and it is taken from him ? A. It is not taken from him; it is not credited to him if he gets reported; if to-day his labor and his economy is worth fifty cents to him, and on this very same day he has reports coming in against him of sixty-flve cents, his account T^■iU be debited with fifteen cen.ts. Q. That is, by labor at the end of the day he is entitled to fifty cents ? A. He is not entitled to it, unless his conduct is perfect. Q. Suppose hia conduct is perfect at the end of the day he is entitled, we vfIU say, to fifty cents; n.OAV, there is over him an oificer, a monitor, who is constantly making a debtor account against him, so that when he gets through the day, instead of his being entitled to half a dollar, he is in debt fifteen cents ? A, Quite likely. Q. Then, I say the system is such thaJt he is not only injured by being reduced in grade, but he iisi injured ateo by having his account reduced? A. I cam't answer that;, because o£ the term " injured " I would object. Mr. ,Li)teMeild,^ — The ertJemiognalpheir will majrk ■'ithiese rejwrts as exhibilB and extenid them on the mdnutes in full. The follo\\ing are copSesi of the reportlsc Demeanor Fine. $ N. Y. S. R. Report of First Class. Datie Grade , Time Cons. No , Xfl.me , , , . ....,1893. Reporting officer , Absent from shop, class driU or parade without proper excuse. AiiaT\ering for amother at roJl'Call. CritiCiBiinig reportiiig officer. Disobedience of ooqders. Disresipectful conduct tKxwardl ai amperiior. Defaicimfe or injuring poibUc proiperby. DesertHing rainksi. Fighting. Fraud. Lying. Lajroetatf. MSsaipproprdia'tiioin. MaUngerilnig. MaMng incorrect report initentiotaailly. 1143 MaJdjng; iimp?o|pen neply to repontiiing oiilcer- Not salutamg an officer (willful or imt^ntliioiiiial). Kefufidmig to give naane or couisecutive numiben tM officer, ypeakinig to a reporting officer without pemuBisiiioii. Ttoeateninjg' neportiDig officer, Usiag proifiame language. Uedng provoMug or reproachful language to anotiier. -^ WiUful or intentional neglect, of duty. Explanation: Offenses. Cell Na N. Y. S. R, Demeanor Report of Second Class. Fine, $ , Time , Date , 1893. Cons. No Grnade Name Reporting officen iUtering part of dress' from presioribed pattem. Ajssfuimption of authioriity. Aibsent from roll-call (unintenitfiional). Bread in room. Bread in bucket OommTomcatimig by signa Oontendinig for a place in' ranJjsi. Creating a disrtiurbaaica (Jrowding in nanksi Carelessneaisi at dress parade. Dismrbing stop by loud langhlng. Damaging or soiling library book or other property. Disorderly conduct iat amy parade or driU. Failing to comply promptly with, an order. Inattention i|n ranks. Iiiatten,tiO!n' in; school. Losing iam article of outfit. * Laiig'hinig and fooling. . ^ Mut.teririg in nanka. Not answering name at roll-oaill (uniiotentionial). Not wearinig belt or gloves at dress parade. Obstinacy in nanks. Rendering improper excuse. Rei>lyinig whemi spoken to in ranks. Talking. 1144 Talking foodi from TOom to eihjoip. 1 nnecesBiarily lea.Tiixg shiOip to vimH store-room. I imintentiioiial neglect of duty. Usin/g improper langiiaige, Explanartion: Offenses. on No. N. Y. S. E. Demeanor Report of Third Class. Time Date 1893. Cons. No Grade Name i ' Eeporting officer , Arms not folded. Answering tO| name in improper manner. Answering to name out of ranks. Bed not properly made. Bucket not in proper place. Clothing nod in proper order. Cup not inTerted. Carlesisinesia in ranks. ' Carrying anytliing in hands marching to or from duty. Chianging place in ranlis. Changing step in ranks. Ghewiing in ranka Coat not buttoned! throughout Dropping an artide in ranks. DUatoiry. Dirty room. Dirty mil furniture. Disorderly room. Disorderly cupboard. DlKtUiTibing hall by loud tajlking in room. Disturbing hall by scuffling in room. Falling out of ranks. Falling in ranks with disordered uniform. Gaping about the «hop. GazLEg about in ranks. Hair not carefully brushed. Inattention at drill. Late at any roll-call or parade. Leaving light burning. Langhinig in ranks. 1145 Not giving commands properly. Not wearing outside elliirti. Not caiTying out bucket. Not wearing slippers to ecliooi or cJiapei. Not at dCOir for coiunt. Not weairing necktie.; Not promptly oiut of room wlien brake is drawn. Not rising wiieni talking to teadlier in school. Not wearing Suindiay pants. Not ansiwerimg to name at roll-oall (miintentional). Not properly equipped at di;-ill or parade. Not reporting from hospital or permit. Not wearing reguiatioii' isMrt to school, service or interview. Out of place. Out of step tni ranks. Passing between aaa officer and his company. Putting on any article in ranks, Eailsing hands in ranks. Sleeping in roiom with light burning. Shoes oiut) of order or not polished alti parade or roll-call. Spitting in *ank®. Signaliinig momiltoir improperly. Swinging hands or armsi in ranks. Talking after "taps." Talking to floomnan, no permit. Not answering to name loud enough at roll-call. Water cup not on door-stone. Wearing slippers in yard. Yawning in ranks. Explanation : Offenses. . N. Y, S. E. Labor Report. Time Bate , 189. Cons. No Grade Name < Employment , • • ■ Eeporting officer Loafing. Carelessness in work. Negligence in work. WastefidnesB. 144: 1146 Poor work. Bad work. Task sliortage. Explanation: Offenses. Arthur Gra/Ser, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: The same statement was made to this witness as to former witnesses. Q. Where were you sent from ? A. New York. Q. When ? A. Fifteenth of March, 1893. Q. For what ofEense ? A. Grand larceny. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. Yes|, air. Q. What is your age ? A. Eighteen. Q. Had you ever t>een in prison before ? A. No, sir. Q. Never been convicted of any offense before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Do you mean to say that you were sent here last March ? A Yes,, sir. Q. How long had you been in the reformatory before you were reduced to the red gi-ade ? A. Two and a half months. Q. For what were you reduced ? A. Not sending in bad work; I kept the bad work out; I didn't send it in. Q. When you came to the reformatory in what manner did Mr. Brockway treat you when you were interviewed by him ? A. He asked me why I came up here. Q. Did he treat you kindly ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did he give you any instructions as to what you should do ? A. He told me all about the reports. Q. What did he say would be the result if you obeyed the rules of the reformatory ? A. I would get out in twelve months. Q. Have you any complaint to make against any of the officers on account of the manner in which you have been treated since you have been here ? A. Not a great many. Q. You haven't a great many complaints to make ? A. No. Q. Do you claim you have been uniformly treated kindly and fairly ? A. Treated kindly when I came up here, but they didn't ask me what I wanted to work; they just put me in the foundry at a job no one likes; they didn.'t ask me what was my job outside; he just asked me what I was working outside; I told him a bar- keeper, so he put me in the foundry. j Q. Did you expect you were going to tend bar here in thje reformatory ? A. No; but I expected to go into a business I liked. ■ 1147 Q. Didn't h.e ask jou wkat tra,de you would like to learn ? A. No, sir; I wrote a note to the general superintendent to take me out of the foundry and put me in the wood-carver shop; tu the old country I was in the wood-carver shop, and was two years learning the business, and couldn't geit a job. so I came over here an.d went tending bar. Q. You were borni in; Gretranamy? , A. Yes. Q. Came to( this oounitiry when? A. Pifteenith of July, 1890. Q In the old oountry yon woijked at wood-xarving? A. Yes, sir. Q. Undeirstood that airt or toad'e? A. Yesi, ear. Q. In tthiils oouimtiry you were unable to get employment at that tradeT A. Yes, sir. Q. Did yoiu epeak Englissh when] you came tloi thisi oounti-y? A. No, sir. Q.\What I desire ita fcnowi is thisi, whether you iire s^atisifled with the treatment which you have receilved from, the o Ulcers h^'re or whether you are dissiajtSeified? A. I am half satisfied and 1 am half not. Q. Haive you been taken to tihe bath-room? A. Once. (i. Puniahed? A. Yes, sir. Q. liow many blows did you receive? A. Five. Q. Upon any other part of your person than the back? A. No, sir. Q. For what were you taken to the bath-room? A. They say I was hoiierimg in a room. Q. Were you ever oonifijied ia the solitary? A. No, sir; not i here. ' Q. Do you thamk you) were justly punisihed? A. Not quite; they didn't ask me anything; they didnft ask me if I was hoUertllnlg on niot. Q. Didn't give you ami oppoirtluniity to explain what there was aJbolut it? A. No. Q. Took youi *o the bath-room and gaive you. the punishment? A. Yea. By. Mr. Litchfleld : Q. Did you ask for an inivesrtiigatlion? A. No, sir; the colonel oame up anld asked my name 'and niumber and went down and in the afternoon I wenti doiwn iln rivi- lege of going into the dininig-rooim and taking my seat; I was transferred from A company, a blue suit company, to M com- pany, a black suit company, anid was made a first sergeauit; I came in with M comjpany upon the soaiith' siMe, and. ndb know- ing then that the rules that I had a. post. idiut\' to do at that time, I came around with dhe compaiujy to the' slide; returned back until the company had gotten into their rooms, returned back over to my own room on the north side, went back again because I saw the others found a nnim,ber of lieutenants stand- ing together near one of the heiatere; I said, "What is the matter, bo^'S, don't we go m now or do we waiti for a signal?" they said, " We wait for a .signal ; " I then, stood alongiside of a heater and there was a dutymain by the name of Draper doing duty on the flags at that time anlij I ispoke" tldi Draper ; he was a bhie suit man; there wa» a parole man by the name of Young also doing duty near me when the signal came to clap up; I walked up throughi the south hall of the south block as far as the east end of it; I tunnied to fall in the line there and was passing Mr. Sample; in the meantime Mr„ Young had went to Mr. Sample and spoke to Mr. Sam;ple; Mr. Sample siaid, "All righjti. Young," smileid amd went away; when T reached ^ir. Sample, he saild, "Fentoinl, what is your nuimiber?" I said, " 5390 ; " the next day I receitved a first^classl report for talking while on duty ' it any further, because I won't stand it any more; I am going to defend myself; " and I took the carpenters hatchet, and put it under my amn; when the runner came back I said: "You can't find Mr. Bigley, and Mr. Sample, you say, has gone somewhere else; you go into the floor and tell Mr. Rathbone or Mr. Brookway that I would like to see thipuv out here; thait^ there is a fight; that I don^lj ttinl?; I am safe out 'here; in, tte meantime this red-suit man, when he was attaddng me, said: "Oome on^ boys, we will . do Mm up now; " the boys kept wihere they werej but they kept holleirlng: "Give it to him, Smith;" aiding him on; finaJiy the runner got a far as the gate and told tihe colonel, who happened to be in the center' gatekeeper's house at that time, and the colonel sent Mr. Muirpihy up; Mr. Murphy came up and says: "Where is this man,;" I says, "There he is;" "Why don't yo,ul stand up here;" I says, "He has just been standing me up;" he says, "What is the trouble, Smith;" Smith then told him, and he says, "Wbat have you got to say," turning to me; I simply told him as it was, as 1 have stated ; he says, " What have you got that hatcbet for;" I says, "To defend myself;" then he took Smith in; Smith was chalked in; I don't believe in one inmate being over another; I think they ought to have citizens over us, men who we can look up to; not one thief over another thief; of course, we are not all thieves; we are supjwsed to put that aside and lead a different life, at the same time T think we ought to iave some one to look up to, who has never committed a crime, who is honor- able in the eyes of all men. By Dr. Smith: Q. That is your idea ? A. That is my idea of the monitorship dutyl ' 1158 Q. You thinii Smith wouldn't have aLtackud a ciiizeu monitor ? A, There is a citizen monitor there; Smith does what he is told; he is as humble and meek as anybody else. By Judge Gilbert: Q. From your experience and knowledge that you have acquired in the reformatory you claim that this system of inmate monitors and inmate officers is bad ? A. I do; yes, sir-. Q. And that the condition of the inmates would be improved and they would advance in the work of reformation, that is expected to be carried on, more rapidly under citizen officers and monitors than under inmates ? A. I honestly believe that is true; just as you have stated. Q. And very many oi the hardships and abuses and severe punishments which they receive would be avoided under the citizen officer system ? A. I do ; I think many men do things that they wouldn't do if they had citizen officers. Q. Let me show you this record; see what explanation you have to make in reference to those ? A. The first one, "Having your company out of step going to dfess parade;" we have been infonned by the colonel, at a meeting that was held before the officers one Saturday morning; he told us we should inform our men they should keep in step with the music and not to keep step with the men in front X)t them ; if he would get a report for being out of step he would give excuse, he was in step with the man in front of him; this night that I got this report the band was standing \^ay over in that L, close by the wall; they were playing a new tun(% two times in the music, a six and eight time in the music, when the band changed from one time to the other. Q. Let me stop you here; the point is this, as to whether or no in the first place that report, whatever it was, was denied by you and you requested an investigation, and whether an investigation v-;is had, and the result of that was ^atiefactoiiy to you ? A. No, sir; it wasn't satisfactory to me. Q. You think you were unjustly treated ? A. I was, because other men had received a yellow report for the same offense and I received first-class report; the reason the men couldn't get the- step was there was an echo; the band were playing close to the binlding and an echo was carried to the south side and carried to the gate whei-e we enter; the men were all out of step and I told the colonel that in my explanation;' we couldn't be expected to have the step; there v>'as an. echo in the music; I have another thing 1 would like to speak of; my attention is called to it by this report; leading bucket in cell; when I first came here I didn't receive any rule book for a couple of days, and I received 1159 one or two pink, reports lor it; when I did get a rule book I couldn't tell which, was the head or tail of it; it is a rule book iseuedi in 1876, I believe, and the rules have been, entirely changed since then. Q. How many rules were there ? A. Many rules. Q. How many in all ? A. It tells about how often you can write home, every two weeks or once a month; it is not true; you are not aiUowed to do thaili; the rule-book iis, a back date; it is uselesBi; you might as weU hand a man a piece of paper. By Mr. litehfleld: ii. Yoti have no copy of the rules amdl regiilations, of the insti- tution? A. As they are to-day there is no way of learning them only by reports, and that is the way most of the men have to learn tiheini. , m yoiur t^xpp'pience or knowledge of the worldngs of the institu'tion with reference to 1;he inmarte officer^ being more likely to make incon'ect or false reports against an inanate thani a citizen officer? A. Eveiy man that is reported has his redress; he sends that refKjrt back with a denial ; he denies he was talking. Q. Whether you think that the results from the inmate officers acting as monitor and residts fi'om a citizen officer acting a-t a monitor are more unfavorable to the ■ inmate than \he resiults fi'om the citizen officer? A. In that light I don't know, except there might be some enmity existing between the inmate monitoa' on the stand and some of the men under his charge, whereas if there was a citizen officer there would be no prejudice; there might possibly be a prejudice. Adjourned to January 3, 1894, 1 a. m., in the city of New York, the place to be designated hereafter. FrFTir AvEMLTE Hotel, ) Nkw Yoek, Wkdnksday, January 3, 1894. f Committee met pursuant to adjournment. , Present — Ediwand H. Litchfield and Dr. Stephen T. Smith. Mr. Litcl;iifield.— The commitJtee wish to annoumoei that, owing to the death of Hon. Oscar Craig, tlie president of the State Board of Charities!, ajnd the dhjairmani of this committee, wbich occuireid yesttendia^y ait Boicheisteiiv thaifc ouit of respect to hiei 1165 memory, this invielstigatloii will stand aicljaamied luitil Momlay next at 10 o'clock, at the sa«me pliace. The committee have consulted both the parties in, intei-est and we understand they are both agreed to that adjoiumment. Mr. Babicock. — The atlbitude olf the defense was not to object to the adjO'Uirmmeait out of respect to the memory of IVIr. Craig; we do not object. Mr. Litohfleld. — We have the «ame expression of opinion from the gemltlemen on the other adide. Bothi sides dO' rpt object to the adjournment. Mr. Baboock. — The defense do not object. Mr. Litchfield. — I under.stand both si'des make the same agreement. Mr. White. — Yes, sir. : Ajdjoumed to Monday, Januairy 8, 1894, 10 a. m. Moinidiay, January, 8, 1894-. The commititee met imri^uant to adjoinnment. Present — Ed. H. Litchfield, , Esq., and Dr. Stephen T. Smitih. Eev. Adolph Ealdin, beinig duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge GilJbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. Sevenrt^-tiwo Ea&t 104th' street, New York city. Q. How long teave you resided 'in thisi city? A. Since three years and a lualf . Q. Whaitl is your ocoiiipaition? A. Jewish mimiister. Q. Where ^did you reside ibefore coming to New York? A. Elmira, N. Y. Q.^IVm- how long a time did you reside there? A. From Sep timber, 1884 — next April it will be four years since I left Elmira. Q. What was .your ooupation whUe ini Elmira ? A. I was. min- ister of the Jev^ish congregation, and at the same time T was moral instructor a* th,e reformatory. Q Par how long a time did you act inl that capacity? A. I arrived in Elmira in September, 1884, and I commenced iny ministries in the reformatory, if I am not mistaken, in March or April. „ i » * -d Q ;How frequenitly did you visit the' reformatory? A. Kegii- lerly 'as an instructor onlce a month, 'but in the last year T also addressed the upper classes of the Elmira reformaliory, not 1166 only Hebrews, but also Ohriaitiaii'Si, besides my ministries; I eame there frequently to visit prisoniens, when I received letters from their' pai^nts and tbey couldn't see them because they were iv the criminal grade; I could see them at any time; I informed them about their parenits; I admonished them to obey; some- times when they were sick I ^ilsitied soane of them in their cells too. Q. You visited all of the inmiates that desired to see you? A. Yes; all the Hebrew inmaites. Q. Did you visit only those that weie ol your faith or did you visit all? A. 'So, sir; only those ithat belonged to my faith; I would have visited them all, but they did not asik fori me. Q. Were your intfrvieT\'s with them of a coiiifldential char- acter, mainly? A. Jlost decidedly, sir. Q. In those intei'viewis, what, if anythinig, did you learn Avith reference to the mamner in which tihey were disciplined? A. They very weldotm complainedi about the disciplime; to be sure, I had such young meni who also complained that they have poor marks because the keepers or other officials are partial against them, but my exjTerieiice was that those who have com- plained, as far as I have learned their antecedents, they were really bad and the good ones did not 'Comi)lain. Q. That is as far as your experiemce enaibled you to judge 01' say, those who are dilsjiosed to obey the rules of rliie reformatory had no difficulty in getting' along? A. None whatever. Q. Those who ^\-ere not so disposed had ? A. Certainly. Q. Were you ever in the room known or called the bath-room ? A. Xo, sir; I was there when it was finished; T saw the gymna- sium and I saw also the bath-room. Q. You never saw any punishments, corporal punishments, inflicted ? A. Xo, sir; but T knew of it. Q. You knew of it ? A. Oh, yes, sir. Q. Did you ever have your attention called to any instances when the inmate claimed that he had been severely punished ? A. Not a single one said he was cruelly punished, although they tcld me they were punished, several of them, even many of them told me that when they were punished there Mr. Brockway tried to scare them, and one of them repeated even Mr. Brockway said to him, "I am very sorry I have to take refuge to such means against you," and he gave him, he says, only two blows, and that was all. Q. Do you recollect any instance when you saw bruises or cuts upon the prisoner which he claimed had been caused by severe punishment ? A. I saw some of them, blue eye and so on, their 1167 fingers were hurt, and some of them I asked what was the matter, aD,d he told me he caiisht his finger while at work; I don't know whether it was the case or not, but not a single one, since I am connected with- that institution, ever told me it wa-s the conse- quences of a paddling, and so on. Q. Do you mean, to say that in those instances when you saw the inmates had black eyes or bruises upon them, that they never claimed to you they received — . A. They did not" tell me they received it from paddling. Q. Did you ever ask them how they received these ?~ A. Some- times I asked, \\h^n he came ^^ith his hand bound, what was the matter, and he told me he hurt himself while lie worked there; if he got a blue eye, maybe, he fell down, or so on; I never inquired about it. Q.^Did you ever ask them how they came to have that black and blue eye ? A. jM^o, sir; I remember in.stances where I asked him, " What is the matter, why do you keep your arm so bound," and he told me he hurt himself while he worked. Q. What did you observe with refei ence to the general appear- ance of the men, with reference to their being in a healthy and proper condition, as a general thing ? A. Very favorable; just the contrary, so many young men brought to the Elmira reforma- tory, and they looked morally and i)hysically degraded, and I saw when they went out they regained color in their face an.d they looked very well. Q. What did you observe with reference to the effect upon the inmates, the educational discipline which They were subjected to ? A. I must candidly confess that I always was very favorably dis- , posed toward these institutions ; I don't know about the percent- age, but at least T know immy young men of whom I know that they were thieves, liars and they came out, after they went in the Elmira reformatory, two or three years, good men, and some of them are visiting my house, and I am not ashamed to introduce them into the circle of my friends and acquaintances. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. How many of these blue eyes did you see while you were there ? A. I could not recollect; not very many; very .seldom I saw thein; to tell vou the truth, I never thought of it that these blue eyes 'should be the consequence of punishment, because I knew if they aire punished tihtey never get blows (iter; s(;metimes even I went in the office, looked in the records and c;i]led his attention to the necessity of siubmitting to discipline, but always you know they say tihey are inuoicent. (i. What I waait to get at is the conneobiom between the wounded hand or the workshop; did that young man have d wonnded hand? A. Yes; but he did not say it wasi from the baith-room. Q. The sore flngens all came from the workshop? A. So they told me. Q. Didn't come from the bath-room? A. No; not a single one. Q. There is no connection between the wounded fingers and the disci pline? A. I don't thinic so, am far as I know. Q. I understood the A\itnes(a to say that those wounded fingers oame from the workshop in vairious foirms? A. Yes,. sir. By Judge Gilbert: ' ' Q. Since you have left Elmira have you visi'ted the refomnatofy occasionally? A. Oh, yes; quite frequently; I come once in three months; I am the apiK)inted chaplain of the different jjenal insti- tutions of the Srtate, appointed by the Jewish congregations, or rather by the board of Jewish mindstens, and I visit the reforma- tory quite often, oftener than amy penal institution of this State. Q. About- how many inmates did you have under your charge, or did you regaixi as under your charge'? A. I commencedi about nine wars ago, or rather to say eight years and nine months ago ; twenty-eight; but the number has rapidly increased; the last year I had ninety-eight Hebrew inmates. Q. Do you recollect an inmate named Leopold Oohn? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ever have conTersatioms with him? A.. Oh, yes; he wasi an imnate of the orphan asiylum, if I am not mistaken. Q. Before he was transferred to Auburn prison? A. Yes; I ^>aw him before he was transferred; and then I saw biin again when he caime from Auburn pri^son; I visited the refonmatory and 1 found him again in the reformatory; if I am not mistaken Waixlen Durston requested Mr. Broclvway he shall give him another chance, and he oame there back. • Q. You made a statlem.en,t, as I understood you, upon your direct examination, that you sa,w inmates witt black aindi blue -jyes 1169 and tlliait jm knew *h.at tJiey didn't receive the injnriesi; bliat inidlcated all punisihlmeait tkey received in the bath-room? A. 1 did not know Iwcavise 4hiey did not teU mfe Q. You don't know whether they received .th.e iaijnry there or not? A. No; when I saw a bine eye I never asked them how it is; I tihohght they fell down and so on; I only anked them when I saw thiem keep their haada banaged, and I asked what was the reason, and neiually they told me they got it in the work. Q. You didn't make any inquiries in refeuenoe to the bruises on the face? A. No; I never thought iti would be the consequemoea of corporal punishment. Q. You also stated they didn't strike the inmates over their faces wihUe being punished? A. Not a single one ever told me so. Q. You dom't know anything about it? A. No; when I asked them how they are punished they always told me they got on the back. By Mr. Litchfield : Q. What did they tell you? X'. That they got it on the back; I asked them: "In which way are you punished;" and they told me they got it with the strap on. the back. ' Q. Did they say they got these bruises on the face in the bath- room also? A. They never told me; I neven asked. By Judge Gilbert: , Q. Had you known that those bruises had been received while being punished, you wouldn't have approved of that ? A. To be sure not), but they never told me so, and I candidly confess if one of the Hebrew inmates would have told me I assuredly would have interfered in their behalf before Mr. Brookway. Samuel Booth, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge GrUbert: Q. Where do you reside ? A. Brooklyn. Q. For how long a time have you resided there ? A* Sixty-five years. i Q. Tor how long a time have you been mayor of the city ? A. Two years, in 1866 and 1867. Q. One term ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Have you ever held any other public position there ? A". Lots of them; supervisor, and alderman, postmaster of the city. Q. Have you, at any time, acted as the agent of the Elmlra reformatory ? A. Only in a voluntary sense; I went there on the 8th of November, 1882, prompted by what I had read in the paper of 147 1170 the institution, I went there witli a couple of Mends, and some- how I worked into the work of attending to these young men being out of business. Q. State in ^at capacity or what particular you acted as the agent of the reformatory ? A. I did the best I could to find parole men places to work, and also to receive reportsi on the six months' parole. \ Q. That is, after men had been so far discharged from the reformatory that they were on their parole, you would look after them, trying to find places for them and receive their reports ? A. Yes, sir. S Q. And sent those reports to the officers of the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir; they sent their own reports. Q. So that, in that way, you came into personal contact or communication with a large number of people that had been, inmates in the reformatory ? A. About 200 Brooklyn men only. Q. You didn't look after any other tenitory ? A. No, sir. Q. What have you to say with reference to the reformatory or its reformatory effect upon the inillate ? A. I think, as a general thing, it was good, many of them doing well, too; I encouraged these men, as soon as they earned money, to put a littje in the savings bank, and many of them did, I know. Q. With reference to those 200 that you have become more or less acquainted witli, what have you to say in reference to their becoming good citizens ? A. I think for the most part they have become good citizens; I can't give you the precise number. . Q. You have no personal knowledge of the method of discipline that is actually adopted in the reformatory ? A,. Only by inter- course with Mr. Brockway. Q. I am requested to ask you, did any of these 200 make com plaint to you that while in the reformatory they were severely punished ? A. I don't recollect one instance of it. » Q. What, if anything, do you know in reflerence to their having acquired useful trades in the reformatory ? A. I know many of them did acquire useful trades. Q. Were there ahy of these men that you knew before they went to the reformatory ? A. I can't say that exactly; probably I did, but it is my custom, after sentence by Judge Moore, to go to the jail and let them know just what they had to go through. Q. All you can say of them is what you observed and learned of them after they returned ? A. Yes, sirl Q. Have you, at different times, visited the reformatory ? A. Once a year until the last two years. Q. During those visits did you converse with the inmates or any of them ? A. Let me state, generally at the chapel service 1171 Mr. Erockway sat on the stage alongside of me, as the men passed out they would hand him slips of paper; "Can I have ail mterrvie-w with Mr. Booth?" I have had five or six at a time with a request to call ora Mends or write to them. Q. During those Tiisits were amy compilaints made to you by the inmates with, refeireaace to the maimer in which they were discSpliiied? A. Ifot ome; I don't suppoBe it was to their in,tere»t to make aaiy complaints before me. Q. Did yoiu ever reoedve amy 'oomplaintisi from any of the inmates, either oraUy or in any other way, with reference to the isevene mannjer in which they were dilsioiplined? A. No, sir; I dloin't recollect a single umtanjce. Q.^ You don't know, of your own knowledge, whether any of the inmatesl were, in fact, 'cruelly puniislhed or Bioit? A. No, sir; I doni't kn'ow of a stngle tnistaince of it; I suppose they would keep that matter to theniseiveBi, quite likely, if tbey had) been. ' By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You said they handed slipsi of paper up asking interviews with, you? A. Yesi, sir. , Q. And that yon held a large miumiber olf interviews? A. Every year. Q. 'The committee do not clearly underetand the language of .four remark; you were asked' if they made any complaint tc yon, and you mid noi, and then you/ said something abont they wouldn't be likely to make complainjbs? A. They feared I would report to someibody in the inistithltijooi. Q. "WTiy wouldn't tihiey complain! to you if they were iU treated? A. I thinJi I answefed it. ' Q. Because yoraj milght repori; the fact to the institution? A. Yes, air. Q. Did you give any particular attention to these discharged inonates after their parole had terminated, after they had gained their liberty? A. Yes, sir; sometimieB; I have interviews Avith them now; had one within a week, in fact, two or three of them vsdthin the last two or three' weeks. Q. Can yiou give any idea aisl to the i>er cent of the 200 Avho continued to be goold citizens after their parole had terminated. A. No, sir; I conldnft reduce that to the percentage; I know some of them have gone to State prison since, three or four of them. : By Mr. Litchfield): Q. Your experience shows it is very important to watch thesi^ young men after they leave the instiitutioni, to care for them and help them to find employment ? A. Yes, sir; decidedly so. 1172 Q. If iHhit is mo* so tBiey are aiptJ iJo go toi thle bad againj? A. Some of them do. Q. Comstanli im.piroivemen.t reqixires. much, watchf ulmesa atier leaTing tfhe inisitBtbutaion as well as the treatment iteielf there? A. Yes, dr. By Judge Grilbert: Q. Oau you give the per cent of the 200 whidh you now* believe are liTing 'hjomiesit liTes? A. I wouldn't undertake to do that; 1 couldn't do it. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Do you think one-half of them have remained good citi- zens? A. I wouldn't like to ispeonlaite on that question at all. Q. Would you think? A. I ^ould think so. Q. Would there be more itham that? A. Perhaps 9o. Q. Nearer a third? A. Yes; might be half. Q. When visiting "the reformatory, what, if anything, did you observe with reference to Mr. Brockway's method of disciplining the inmates? A. I think he is remarkably kind to them, always in my presence. (^. You saw mothimg whateveR -as to the manner iq which they were disciplined; you know nothing about that? A. Xo, air; I always found him a/pproadhable; if a young man came up he would treat him as quietly as you would. Q. That is while you were present? A. Yes, siir; one of the most uoipleaisant interviews I had vnth him was when about a dozen or fourteen young men, chiefly from New York, were taken in his room, and he sat them in the middle of a semi-circle and lectured them with a blackboard before them; told them vrhat they had to go through to get out in good time. Q. That was when they were received into the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir; an interview of that kind appeared in the New York Observer, which I have somewheres about me; I would like to state that whatever service I have rendered the institution has been without compensation. So we understand. Mr. Stamchfleld. — I suppose the question, will come up as to what is to be done with the testimony of those who have been former inmates of the institution, and I think, speaking for the management of the reformatory, the only desire we have in the world is to secure to the people who come forward here absolute immunity in consequence of ha^dng given their testimony here; I am perfectly wiUing to trust every newspaper man in this room 1173 wb.0 will say to you before these men are presented here as witnesses, that their names will not be published, nor will any steps be taken by them to discover the identity of the man giving the proof. Of course it is proper you should know who that man is, and the name will be handed to Mr. Fanning. It is proper Mr. White should know, and I must say hei'e in pasising, I have not furnished him with the list of names of the former inmates we purpose to call, for the reason I am now addressing to this tribunal, that I did not desire to have their naanes become public property, and for this reason I have conversed with many of those inmates and since their incarceration in this institution some of them have married, they are fathers of families; others are in various lines of employment, some occupying positions of trust, and in many instances neither their wives nor employers are cognizant of the fact they have ever been inmates of the reform- atory. It would be simply inhuman and brutal to publish in the columns of , the public press the names of such men and advise their families and employers of the former status of these men, because it would serve no good purpose. I assume there are some men in the room who are not members of the newspaper fraternity, those I should assume would be requested to retire; I am perfectly willing to trust any of the gentlemen who will say to you the names of these men T^ill not be made public. Mr. Litchfield.— We will take that testimony on that basis; I think there is no objection. Mr. White. — We will be handicapped by not having been given, those names; I understood Mr. Stanchfleld was to give them to us ; when I went to him for them he said he couldn't, that he had since changed his mind; if we do not have the records of those men for the purpose, of cross-examining them we will not have the sanje opportunity they had to go over the record of these men, when they had five days' notice from us. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I vpill say in response, we have here, for his use, certified copies of the record, and I will furnish him with the material he says they are in need of for. every man that takes that chair. , Mr. White. — He does' not furnish it until the man goes on the stand; while he is testifying I am listening to his testimony. Mr. Stanchfleld.— The same record we had. Mr. WTmte. You had the opportunity of examining the records for five days before the men were called. Mr. Litchfield.- Have you anything, to say, Judge Gilbert, on. the subject? In the case of twenty witnesses called, neither party had access to the records in advance. 1174 Mr. White. — I refer to the ex-imnates we called, aside from those who are inmates of the institution. Mr. LitdMeld. — There were men called isiuddenly, without notice to the other party, down at the Astor House. Mr. "White. — Those that came in and offered their evidence. Mr. Litchfield. — The same objection would have held;, and Ihe committee! ruled then the witnesisea being -tiiere it was thought to be wdse to take their testimony; in many oases these wit- nesses would not come forward; if tihey had the lig'htest doiubt on the fiuibjeot of their idtentity. Mr. Whitie. — We could have foun,d a great mamy more if we had the same opportunity of assuring. Mr. Litchfield. — I think it is better to waive any objection to that, and let uis gol on andi take the teistimony of those men ; the committee aire very desirous of taidng the tesitimony of some of those witnesses who are very shy of appearing; if you can go on with it in this way it will save us taking some other steps to get at it. Mr. White. — Would you be willing to give us those records this noon? Mr. Stanchfield. — It would not do you any good because the name is not with them; we wiU call John Doe; I will hand. Mr: White the reformatory record of Jo'lm Doe. Mr. WMte.^ — With his name or without it? ' Mr. Stanchfield. — Without it. Mr. Litchfield can give you his name if you want it. Mr. Litchfield. — We will take the teetimomy of no witness unless we have his name. Mr. White. — I think I am enjitled to the name and number. Mr. Litchfield. — I undenstood the name was to be furnished to Mr. White. Ml'. Stanchfield. — I have no objection to your showing the nam© to Mr. White. ! Judge G-ilbert. — Coupled with !h.e understanding if after^vard Mr. White desired to examine the witne^ that you would pro duoe him. Mr. Stajichfield.— At some hearing; T have nO' objection. Mr. White. — If the defenise will produce him. Mr. Litdhfield. — I think we would have to, if Mr. White wished to examine the ^vyitneee funtiher. Mr. Stanchfield. — T have not the slightest objection to it. I want to do anythiag that is fair, and I want to p^>tect the identity of these men. Mr. Litchfield. — We are desirous of taking the testimony of that, class of witnesses in the easier* way. Eegarding tihe gen- 1175 tlemen who are present, we want the pledge of tihe newspaper gentlemen. John Doe, No. 1, being duly sworn, tesitifledl: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Were you ever in the Eimira reformatory? A. Yes, sir ; I was. Q. When weoie you sent to the reformatory? A. In July, 1887. Q. June or July? A. July. Q. You say it wasn't June 16, 1888? A. I 'thinik it wasi July, 1888. Q. For what offense? A. Forgery. Q. Did yotu plead guilty? A. Yes, sir. Q. What was your .age at the time, you were sent? A. Twenty- one. Q. Didn't you give your age as 19? A. Maybe, I wasi bom in 1868. Q. When were you disoharged from the reformakxry? A. First of September, 1890, I think. Q. Eighteen hunxired and eighty-nine or 1890? A. I was twenty-seven months up there. Q. You "were in the reformatory about two yeans and three months? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wh'en were you absolutely or entirely released? A. About six months later. Q. About MaiTch 13, 1891? A. Yes, sir. Q. While you were in the reformatory were you reduced to the third grade? A. Yes, sir; once. Q. How long did you remain ia the third grade? A. I think seven months; I dloaa't know exactly how long. Q. For what offense? A. For mimoir offenses, laughing, fodliug. Q. Anythitag diae? A. No, sir. Q. Smoking? A. No, sar.. Q. While in the third giradiq, were you, taken! to ihe bath-room amid pomished? A. Yes, sir; orace. , Q. How many blows did you receave? A. Two. ■ Q. Where; upon what part of your person? A. I am sitting on it. Q. What was your employment while you were in) the| reform- atory? A. I was in the militaiiy, and in the store-room and wash -department. Q. Did. you leartn' a trade whilef you were there? -A. T did. fresco painting. Q. Had you any trade before you went to the reformatory? A. No; I was a bookkeeper. Q. What is your employment ni&w? A. I haTe my own store. Q. What kind of a store? A. Ooal and wood seller/ Q. How long have you been engaged in ibusiniess for yourself? A. In 'tihe summeri time out in^ tlhe counti-y, aaid in tke wintw time in tlie city. Q. You have been engaged m bTisinesB for younself bow long? A. Two or three summers. ' Q. While you were in tbe reformatiory were you in ckargii; of ithe store-room? A. Yes, sir. Q. EDow was that located with, irefiereinlc© ito tihe bartb-TOom? A. Opiposite. ' Q. Just aerose the ball from the batb-lroom? A. Yes, sir Q. Did you see the inmates frequently taiken into the 'batb- room? A. I did. Q. Frequently coaning out of the batb-noom:? A. Yes, sir. Q. For bow long a time did you oocupy tibat position? A. For nearly a year. Q. Keeping tbe same aipartmenit or noom? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Were you in tbe batb-rocwn frequently during tbat time? A. Yes, sir. Q. Can you state wben tbat eleven months commenced? A. I was restored to tbe second ^ade again one year before I went out of tbe reformatory. Q. Were you in dbange of the stocre-nooon up to the time yon were disobarged? A. Yes|, ear. Q. During tbe time you were in cbarge of tbe stot'e^room you say you frequently went into tbe batb-room? A. Yes, ssir. Q. How frequently did you goi there? A. Nearly every day. Q. What, if anytthing, didl you see or observe in reference tx> blood upon the floor? A. I never saw any blood upon the floor. Q. Do you say there was' none there? A. I say tbere wasn't none liEere. Q. Neither on tbe floor iiior-wall? A. No, sar. Q. You say you were punished once in tbe batb-room yourself? A. I did. , Q. Was that punisbmenT^all right? A. Yes; it was. Q. You deserved it? A. I think I did. Q. Do you think it benefited you, improved you? A. Yes, Sir; it did. ' Q. After tbat you didn't have any trouble? A. Never. Q. Do yon remember about Avihen it was you were puBlisbed in tbe bath-room? A. Yes; I think it was two or three months before I got restored to tbe citizen grade, to the second grade Q. Aboiut two months? A. I think it was. 117TI Q. Wiheji do you say you were restored to tilxe citizea grade? A. One 3'ear before I went out. Q. Do you remjember when/ it was that you were restored to tte black-suit grade? A. I weaut out ia September; it must have been August or September tbe yeair before. Q. September, 1889? A. Yes, sii-. Q. Wasn't it about May 24, 1889, you were taken in th.e bath.- room? A. I think it was-. i Q. So it was more than two months ? A. It may be. Q. You say you only received two blows ? A. Two or three, I think. ;^ Q. Are you not mistaken ? A. No; I am never mistaken. Q. Did you receive six blows ? A. No ; I did not, sir. Q. What would you say if the reformatory record showed you received six? A. It was a mistake; I am sure of that; Mr. Brockway told me he would give me a chance, he only wanted to show me, to see if I could better myself ; I never got six blows. Q. The record is in error ? A. Yes, sir; mistaken. Q. Do you remember what you were punished for ? A. Yes; for laughing and fooling in the military. Q. Was that the only thing? A. That is the only thing;, I never done any crooked work. Q. You say you saw the inmates taken into the bath-room and saw them coming out ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Wbat do you say with reference to their — some of them Ijiaving bruises upon their faces ? A. Yes; I saw men having black eyes, but I deny emphatically — ^ Q. Wait a moment; what have you to say with reference to seeing inmates coming out of the bath-room with bruises upon i their faces, indicating they had received severe punishment; did you "see any such ? A. Yes; I saw some of them. Q. Can you give about the n.hmber ? Mr. Stanchfield. — Do you hold that is proper cross-examina- tion ? We have not asked him about anything of that kind. ' Pe is called specifically to prove there was no blood upon the floor or wall. I asked Judge Gilbert at the time, that I did not wish to go into the question of punishment. It is not cross-examination. Judge Gilbert. — If the evidence which the witness gave with reference to seeing blood upon the floor or not seeing it there, or upon the wall, has not so far opened up the question of punish- ment as to admit the proof which this question calls for, then I think the question should not be answered. Mr. Stanchfleld.— We have had that up once. Judge Gilbert. — I tiink Mr. Stanchfleld is strictly correct in this, that unless the examination of their witness is such as to 148 ,1178 open up questions of matters relating to th.e prosecution or the aflfirmatiTe part of the case, that further afflnoative proof should not be introduced, even though it was coming from their witness.' Mr. Stanchfleld. — I called him in reliance upon your ruling on a similar situation; I call this man to disproive a certain epeciflc fact; I would not have called him, for illustration, if we were going into the main merits of the case; I do it as a lawyer, and I was guarded in the question and called Judge Gilbert's attention to it when it was asked. j Jndge Gilbert. — You wil observe my peculiar position. I\Ir. Litchfield. — I would like you to come out of your peculiar position. Judge Gilbert. — I will say, as a lawyer, proof of this character should not be introduced from the witness placed upon the stand b^' the defense, unless the examination which has been conducted in behalf of the defense, under their direction. At their request matters have been called out which would justify the introduction, of proof really of an affirmative character. Mr. Litchfield. — Do you consider the question put in about the blood would lead up to any question about bruises he saw upon other prisoners ? i Judge Gilbert. — My idea is it is not. Mr. Litchfield. — I think we might strike that question out. Q. I am requested to ask you if you could explain why it was that you were so frequently in the bath-room ? A. I had to dress the men when they got reduced to the grade. Q. When they were reduced in grade were they taken to the bath-room; were their clothes changed in that room? A. TaJte them in the hall ; the hall is next to the dooip of the bath-room. Q. They were noit taken in the bath-room and their clothes changed there? A. A ma>n goit punished first and then reduced to the grade. Q. He was punished before he was reduced in grade? A. Yes, sir. Q. Direcrtily after the pxmishment you woaild change Msi clotheis? A. Yes, isoiT. Q. Put on the red suit? A. Yesi, sir. Q. The red suit was not put on until after he had been pun- ished? A. No, sir. Q. These suits were not chaiiiged in the bath-roomi? A. No. Q. Or in the hall? A. No. Q. CSan you explain why it was you were so ffi-equently in the ba^Jh-TGOm, you said you were there nearly every day; how came you to be there nearly every day? A. I went in there. Q. What for? A. I had to go in there sottnetiimea; men left some stuff in there, jackets or coats, or anything like that, not every day. 1179} Q. Gan you explain any more partiotilairly tliaii' yom have, why you went into the bath-room so frequently? A. Men got baths in there; I had to go in there sometimeH after Mr. Broekway left the bath-room. Q. Did! you ever deaji up the bath-ioiam, floor? A. I did. Q. Clean the walls? A. Yes; but I never had anything to clean on there. Q. Then why did you clean the wails? A. I didm't clean the walla. Q. You isaid you did a moment ago? A. I didn^ dean tM: waUs. Q. Did you clean the floor? A. There was nothing to clean on the floor. Q. Did you clean the floor ? A. No. Q. You never oleanedl the floor or wall? A. No, Q. Didn't you say a moment ago you didi? A. I did not clean th€( floor or wall. Q. You didn't go in there for that purpose? A. No, sir; I did not. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Was it your duty to clean the bath-room if it had to be cleaned? A, If the head hallman wasn't there I did. Q. There was another mam whose duty it was to tSlean the room? A. Yes. Q. It wasn't your specific duly to clean it? A. No, sir. By Judge Grilbert: Q. You never did clean it? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever in there when the room wais cleaned by iSiomeone elsie? A. I was. Q. Who cleaned the room generally while you were in control of the store-room? A. The hallman. Q. Who was the hallman? A. I can't remember his name. Q. You say the hallman uisuaOy cleaned the floor? A. Yes, sir. Q. The floor of -the bath-room? A. When Mr. Broekway left — the door got locked!, nobody could get in there, before the men got dressed and went out. Q. You said ai moment ago there never was( anything in there to clean up? A. There wasn/ti anything to clean up. Q. Why was^the hallman in there cleaning it up? A. The gen- tleman asked me if aiJybody had a specific duty to clean upi the bath-i«oom; the hallman had. Q. The floor was a marble floor? A. Yes^ sir. Q. As a general thing it was cleaned every day? A. Yes; couple of times. ii8o; Q. It was used as a bath-room? A. Yes; every afternoon-. Q. Was it generally cleaned right away after prisoners wei-e punished? A. No, sir. Q. Were you ever accusedi of any otiher offense than the one for which you were sent to the reformatory? A. No, sir, Q. Never arrested before that? A. No, sir. ^ Q. Ever arretted since? A. Noi, sir. Q. Ever accused of any offense since? A. No, sir. By Mr. LitcMeld: Q. You testified you only received two blows? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you say whether they were severe or not severe? A. No, sir; -SoBj were not severe. By Judge Gilbert: Q. My attention is called to the recolrd of the reformatory, as made of your conduct, and' one of the offenses you were oharged with was lying? A. Yes; for sending back a repOTt. Q. Was that true? A. There may be some mistake. Q. Is it true that you were guilty of lying while you were tliere? A. I know I was not. Q. You say the charge was true or not? A. No; I -don't think it was true. ' Q. Do you think you were justly treated, charging you with Ij'ing and conduct of that character? A. Yes, sdr; I think it was in that respect; there were only two men to believe, the officer and I; the officer is put over me; more confidence put in the officer than in me; I am an inmate; no proof is given me; here was one side to believe. Q. The report was made against you by an inmate officer? A. No; the report was given me by a citizen officer. By Mr. Litchfield: Q ]>id you always have a fair trial? A. I did. Q. If YOU had a fair trial, how was it you didn't get justice done you? A. There couldn't be justice done; that man is a citizen; I couldn't prove. Q. Yoiu think tlhey would take a citizen's word aB against you? A. That is so all over; you put a man over another man, you have confidence in him, you would believe him. Q. As between your word and an inmate officer, one word was as good as another? A. No; I don't think it is. Q. Do you think they would take your word as against an inmate officer? A. Yes; the inmate had a better conduct; I was reported beforel for talking. 1181 Q. You hare no objection to inmate officers? A. I have some objection. Q. You do not complain you 'had any injustice from inmate officers? A. No. Q. You said your duties were in the stoi-e-room'? A. Yes, sir. Q. Are there not two stotre-roomia in that bath-room pajssage? A. No, sir; one room. Q. The!re are two rooms, one on the right-hand side and one on the left-hand side? A. When I wias there there was O'nly one store-room department; and when I go* througih with the store- room I had to go to the! waisb depatrtmemt. > Q. What do! yow oall' the room on thei left-hand side? A. That is a private room next to the biath-room. Q. Your duties were oni the right-hand side? A. Yes; opposite the bath-room. Felix Adler, being duiy sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Where do you reside? A. New York city. Q. How long have you resided here? A. Ever since 1857. Q. What is youi^ principal oooupation? A. I am the lecturer for the Society of Ethical Culture, New York city. Q. Have yOii ever visiitled, the Elmira reformatldlry? A. Repeatedly. Q. About how often? A. I should judlge about four or five times; I can't remember exactly. Q. About how much time did you sipeud upon each occasion in the reformatory? A. I should say I spent about a day every thne I visited the institutliion. Q. For what, purpose did you visit the institution? A. In response to thie invitationi oif the superiintenident to conduct the Sunday evening exercisis, or deliver the Sunday evening address. Q. Your visits were usually upon the Sabbath? A. Usually; I arrived there on Saturday, the day before, and sjpent a day or little more. Q. In short, you- have lectured biefiore the inmates upon four different occasions? A. I am ntot exactly certain of the number, but I have repeatedly lectured before the inmats. Q. Did you ever visit the reformatory upon amy other occasion than those four that you' refer to? A. I think not. Q. What siiibjeots did you lecture upon? A. Ethical suibjects, moral subjects; I remember my last address was on the life and death of Sir Thomai^ Moore, the English ohanceUor. Q. About what time in the day did you arrive at the reform- atory? A. Eeally, I can't recall, exactly; 1 have many lecture 1182 engagemeints, and the time of day dioea noti fix itself ini my memory. \ Q. Did you remjain there over might? A. Yes, sir. Q. And leave the reformatory irn the morning? A. Often. Q. State what opportunity yoci have had to see or converse with the inmates, and what opportunities you- had to observe or get informatioai witih reference to the manner in whleih the inmates were disciplined? A. As to the manner in which the inmates were disiciplined, I had very little opportunity for obser- va'tiooa; my chief intei-estj in the refomnatotry was concentrated upon the system^ the pemolo'gical system there pnrsiued; the reform £,'tory system has always interested me as one of the most notable and creditable experiments that has ever been mad'e in the reformation of young criminals; I wajs, therefore, extiremely interested in studying the system and methods, and had not many opportunities of observing the discipline; I rem'ember only one occasion on wMch something in reference to the discipline came tioi my knowledge; that was during a conSversation with one of the clerks in the office; 'he seemed to me a bright and intelligent man, and I questioned! hijm as to the cause which had brought him to the reformatory and asi to the treatment to vphioh he had been subjected. Judge Grilbert. — That evidence is objecitedi to by the proscu tion, upon the ground that it is hearsay; I think, so far as convevsntions between the inmates and, the witness, or betiveen the officers, if olbjeetd to, and the witness vrouH' not be proper, but. I think he should be permitted to stiate generally what he observed, what he lea.med' and whait he saw, and from the examination he made in reference to the mancieri an which the reformatory was coniductied. Mr. Litchfield. — The objection is a right one, that hearsay testimony should be stricken out. The witness. — I intended to answer the question put to me as to what I knew of the discipline; I understand the conveilsa'tioin between me and the inmate is objected to. Q. That is excluded. A. Then I can only say, I have been present at the ethical class, conducted by Professor Monks on Sunday afternoon, that I have repeatedly read and carefully studied the examination, papers in the department of literature, history, etc., and T visited the shops and I have formed a general impression as to the cultivating effects of the methods of the reformatory upon the minds of its inmates; T can only speak of the system therefore pursued ; I have, of course, been interested in v.hat Mr. Brockway called the bath-room treatment, and have conversed with him on the principles in obedience to which he 1183 acts in this matter, but that question would be a conversation I bad with one of the officers; I am very glad to answer any questions. Q. I would like you to statp what experience you have had with j-eference to visiting or having in charge reformatory insti- tutions or reformatories of the character of the on.e or simflar to the one at Elmira? A. I have had no such experi- ence; I have had experience as an educator; I have been iu charge of a school myself, based on the modern principles, the new edncatiouj and have had considerable experience in visiting schools abroad. Q. What school have you had charge of ? A. The worliing- men's school of this city. Q. Is that a penal institution ? A. No, sir; a day school. Q. Have you l^een connected in any way with any penal insti- tution ? A. Not at all. Q. Neither as instructor nor in any other way ? A. Not m any way. Q. You have made penology a study ? A. I have been very much interested in- penology ; I don't liuow whether this testimony is at all pertinent, but I should like to say I regard the system pursued at Elmira a great credit to the State of New York, and I believe it is so regarded; the educational system is so regarded by all who have given attention to it. ' Mr. Litchfield. — ^That is hardly relevant, because the commit- tee consider the institution one of the best institutions in the world. Judgp Gilbert.^ — That you strike out. Mr. Litchfield. — I think I will leave it in there. It simply agrees with the impression on the mind of the committee. Judge Gilbert. — As an educational institution that is not in question at all. Mr. Litchfield.— No. Mr. Stanchfield. — I think Professor Adler, predicating , his opinion upon comersatio^s "vvith Mr. Brockway, would perhaps express a similar opinion in regard to the discipline in force. Judge Gilbert. — An opinion of that kind might lead to a cross- examination in reference to his knowledge and opportunity to judge, etc. Q. What opinion, if any, did you form with reference to the method of discipline that was adopted in the reformatory, that is from what you learned from observation and from communi- cation with the inmates or officials ? A. If I understand your question, it covers a somewhat large field; the method of disci- plin,e adopted includes the grading system ? 1184 Q. Ygs; it would include the grading system, and would include CTery thing which is adopted there as a part of the method of dis- cipline ? A. I believe that the grading system adopted in the reformatory is most admii*able; I believe that the system of send- ing men out on parole is an admirable means of discipline; I , believe also that corporal punishmerit, when the execution of it or the carrying out of it is placed in the hands of a wise and humane father of a community, is indispensable in such institutions. By Mr. Litchfield): Q. 'Do you believe that the superintendent of such an insti: tution should inflict the punishmenit himself, and become the exe- cutioner of his own decrees? A. I sihoiuld believe no other way of inflicting such punishment desirable or permisisible. Q. l>o yoai remember that in the army and navy, when men were flogged, that it was never done by the official who decreed Jiie pimiKhment; the practice of mankind haiS been to de'legate the punishment itself toi some officer or under linig? A. Yes; as I understand, tihe praotdce of flogging wais, in those oases,* a meaaie of punishment, whereas in the case of a reformatory imstitution I do not regard it, and D do not thinlc it is regarded asi a means of punishment, but as a means of education. Q. I undlensitand you, you never were present at any punish- ment? A. I never was present, and I can only say in general that this method of education^ lUie all methods, is safe only in the hands of a wise, competent and humane man. Q. If that man were not wise or not competent it would be a dangerous weapon ? A. It would be an extremely dangerous weapon. Q. It all depends upon one person? A. It aU depends upon the character of the man, in my estimation. By Judge Grilbert: Q. What would you say in reference to the effect uxxtn the man who inflicts the punishment, as to whether a repeated or frequent infliction of corporal punisihment would have a tendency to harden the man who inflicts it; that is, to makei him more cruel, heartless? A. I eihmild say it would have t|jat tendency ujion a man who was unfit for his office. Q. AVouldn't you say, generally, that would be the effect? A. No more than the frequent perfownance of surgical operations would have the effect 1o make the surgeon bloodthinsty: Q. Doesn't it, in fact, make the s«5rgeon a little more callous in reference to the operations than it would men in general? A. It 1185 will make him less emoiMonal perhaps, but I tliiiik if he is the right kind of man it will not make him cruel. Q. It all depends upon this, as to whether or noiti the man who is inflicting the punishment is the right kind of man? A. Entirely. Q. Hais in him the right kind of spiriiti? A. Precisely. Q. Suppoise he haism't that right kind of sph-it, then would you think it was safe and proper to giye him the right or authority to, inflict corporal punishment in the exeoutioaa: of his own decrees or demand? A. You introduce another quastiom when yoai aiak: "In execution of his own decrees;" I have spoken only of the carrying out of this deca-ee, amd not as to who ehoiuld issue the decree. Q. SuppoiSe' it is no decree really that is isHued or pronounced, so far as the number of hlows, for instance, to be inflicted; sim'ply a decree that corporal punishment shall be inflicted, and the number of blows is determined by the person who inflictis them while in the act of punishing; wouldn't he be likely to increase the blows according to. the sipiriti iU'which he was inflicting them.? A. Undoubtiedly. Q. Would, it be safe to give to any man the right to inflict just, as many blows as he might see fit, while the isplirit in which he vs^as inflicting them was undergoing a change which was incident to the work he is engaged in? A. I think that if the managers of the instituijioin or the commumlilty in general is not perfectly oonfldent) that the spirit of this officer will not change while he is inflicting pnmiisihm^nt, in other words, that he will not be liable to the influencie of personal rancor while he is di^hayging a very 'high, delicate and dangerous duty, that it would be the businpss of ^otsie in authority to remove him from his place. Q. Wonldn't you «a.y this, that where oo^rporal punishment is to be inflicted, and it is to be inflicted by blows upon the person, upon the back, we will say, that some authority, some one above the person who inflicts them should determine the number of blows that should be inflicted, an,d not leave that to be deter- mined by the person who inflicts them ? A. I think I should in all eases desire that the person who inflicts the punishment should give an account of the manner in, which he has proceeded, of the number of blows and of the reason why, in each case, he inflicted so many, to a competent authority, but that he should not be limited beforehand by any authority. Q. Your idea is that corporarpunishmont should be inflicted as a means of discipline or method of disciplining the inmate, and that the blows should be inflicted as a punishment for some viola- tion of reformatory rules ? A. Not as a punishment, by no 149 1186 means as a puuiehment, but as a means of recalling the inmate to his sense of duty, as a prod. Q. Your idea is this: That the blows inflicted should not be inflicted as a punishment, but Siimply for the purpose of indicating to the inmate that he must comply with certain rules and regula- tions in order to make a proper progress ? A. Entirely; -that he should pull himself together. Q. Suppose while the officer inflicting the blows and inflicting them solely for the purpose which you have stated, should strike ai; inmate over the head simply because the inmate happened to look in a different direction from that in which he was directed to look, what would you say to that, can you justify it upon any ground ? A. I must say that any action of that sort would seem to diminish the value of the treatment. Q. In short, is there any theory upon which you, as an. expert, can justify a blow of that kind ? A. I should be somewhat at a loss to justify theoretically. Q. Let us go a step furthei'; and suppose that blow was suffi- ciently severe to make the face black and blue around the eyes, or cut the flesh upon the side of the head, or upon the top of the head, or make the eye bloodshot, could you justify any such blow as that ? A. If I saw my way of justifying a blow upon, the head or in the face at all, it would not make much difference whether the eye were black or bloodshot. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. I understand you can not, in your own mind, justify a blow ou the head as a matter of physical treatment ? A. Except, of course, in case the inmate resisted authority. Q. That is not our idea; as a matter of physical treatment,' simply as physical treatment ? A. No ; I could not see my way ; no theoretical justification for that. By Judge Gilbert: Q. Suppose, for instance, when the inmate is placed in a posi- tion where he is to receive this corporal punishment, he is directed to keep his eye upon a particular point, and while he is receiving the corporal punishment he turns his eye away from that point, and then, for that, the -blow is inflicted over the head, can you justify that blow ? A. It seems to me, the question you now put to me is the same, identically the same, as the one already answered. 1187 By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Your opinion as to corporal punfehment is, it is very much a matter of degree the kind of punishment inflicted; yon do not justify corporal punishment of all kinds ? A. By no means. Q. You would limit them very strictly ? A. Entirely so. Q. Do you feel all prisoners should be subjected to physical treatment or corporal punishment, or is there not a certain class of men who ought not to be treated in that manner ? A. I think e\'eryone will agree there is a certain class of men who ought not to be treated in that m'anner, but I should leave it to the judg- ment of the superintendent and managers as to which particular inmate belongeid tc thati class and' which of the innnates did not belong to tihat class. Q. You have been at the head of educatiomaL institutionis? A. Of a school. Q. In that school you find aU mannep and varieties of boys, some are delicate and shrinking and othersi loud and coarse in their manner, and you would not administer oorporal puniisihment right through? A. I adiminisiter corporal pfaniishment to no chiM; oo'rpoiral pnnislunent is siMctly exicluded. Q. If joxL had the right to iD/flict it, would you inflict it? A. I made those rules myself; I am striotly opposed to corporal punisihment in ordinary sichools, but the opinion! I have expressed here is based on the frequent conviction) that the criminal class is an exceptional and oftieiii ani abnormal class, aind that what w^ould be cruel in case of the ordinary child and unicalled for, is often mercilful in the case of abnormal human beings. Q.. lYom your exaiminatibni of the reforma/tory, what propor- tion of the abnormal men woul'dl you say existiedi there; you have seen these men; you have lectiured to them; you have watched their faces and have iConveMed, prolbaibly, with very many of them? A. I can only base my opdinion) uponi the merest impres- sions, and I could not fix any propodfion, but, judging fromi the faices, I should say there wafi a oonsideralble number of abnorm'al persons ini the reformatory, personisi withi crimMal dispositions, but that ife a mere loose statement, without any definite faotis to go on; but itl does seem to me, in! judgin'g of am ihstitutiboi for the reformation of criminals, you! should not apply the same standards which are very dear to us, wi^th respect to the normal man and the normal youth. Q. In vitew otf the administration! of 1,400 <^ 1,500 criminals, would you think it safe to be left entiirely fb you the question whether a man should be pumisihed: with corporal punishment, or would you ratheri be guided by a boaM' of mainlageps? A. I 1188 would ratker 'be guided by tike judlgment of tlie board of manageiis. Q. Itl would be dangeax)usi to leave it to ome maii, iai your opin- ion, to decide entirely on tttie 1,400 young mem? A. I am not prepared to say i-t would be dangerous; it would be a respon- sibility which. I would rather shaine witlil others. < ' Q. Withdrawing the question) of dangerons, would it be advlis- able to leave it solely to one person to judge as to whether or not corporal punishment should be admiriiateredi? A. If a board of mamagers conld sit daily ia the instliitutioin, fbe constantly near so that their opinion might be called in, I should think it advis- able, far more advisable ia the case of corporal punishment and the grounds upon which it is proposed to inflict it should be previously sub-mitted to the judgment of the board of managers; I ought to add tliat my opinion has nort' the A\'eight of one experi- enced in penology; I simply have had expetrienice as a lecturer of an ordinary school based' on the principles of the new educa- tion, and I have read penologicai works, but 1 am mot am expert penologist and I Avish that my opinions oniay not have even a semblance of weight that does not belong to them. Q. Yet yon are decidedly iopposed to corpoirial puriishment in school? A. Decidedly, in the ordinary school; I am so absolutely. Q. Yet you must at times have some very tough young boys come under your care? A. I believe the methods of the new educa- tion are enfflcient to deal with all ordSniajry cases, and I am of the opinion that all such boys whio ought to be- treated by cor- X)oral punishment shonld be sent to a special ischool, modeled •soraewkait on the principles of the Elmira refortnaljH'y ; it is my hope and aim that somie day we shall have a school for abnormal children who have not yet gone into the ways of crime, anjd who, by proper treiatment, may be prevented from becoming criminals, but inl the ordinary school which deals witk nioraalal children ooqporal puniishment should be absolutely excluded, in my opinioiL By Judge Gilbert: Q. Your work mainly is connected witk schools here in the city? A. 1 have had charge of a sckooil and kinidtergarteni in tkiii city for sixteen yeans; the institution has been gradnially built up; begin- ning witk a free Idndergartien it kas grown to be a sckool of 350 pupils, from the age of 3 to 4, and evening classes for young people from 14 to 20. ' Q. As I understand! you, in yonir opinion, corporal punishment shonld not be inflicted uix>n any child from the age of 3 up to 20, upon any noaimai child. 1189 Q. Or any ohMd wMcih. iia attending a aoliool of the cliaracter of the one which, jaa refer toi? A. Any public school, any ordiiiary school. Q. Da you say that in every instance the student that attends the school that you refer to, there is nothing a,bno!nnal about hini, nothing of a criminal character about, him? A. When you aisle, me whether there is nothing abnormal, about any of our pupils, you ask a question that it is difficult toi answer. Q. I understand you to say, that so fair as the discipline adopted in school is concerned, of the character of the one you ha.ve charge of, that you are opposed td ail kinds of corporal puniiahment? A. That is so. Q. What I want to get at is this; if you are opposed to inflict- ing conporal puniisimient upon children or young men, and young- women from ithe age of 16 toi 20 in your school, why wouldn't you be oi)poised to it being inflicted upon people of that age in any reformatoiry? A. Because our school is not a refooranatoiry ; it is a school;' moreoa^eo' these young people — the atteindiance of these young people is pm'ely* voluntary; we have no control over them, but if it were not there would be no thought of corporal punish- ment in connectioth with normal youths; I think the daisttnotioia' between the normal man and the abnormal mam is sufficiently clear to warrant a discrimination between the school and the reformatory; the normai cluld or youth belonsja intoi the school; the abnormal into the reformatory. Q. Are you particularly acquainted with Mr. BrOckway? A. I have had the privilege of meeting Mr. Brockway whenever I have gone to the reformatory. Q. Tlhat is upon four ocoasionisi? A. I wisih I were more certain of the numbier, but on repeated occasions, and I have also met Mr. Brockway in ttdsi city; I admire him exceedingly. Q. You have never seen him while engaged iUi administering iOorporai punishment to anj inmate? A. t have not. Q. You have never observed him upon any other occaeiotns except those that you have referred to, wheni you have met liim, in the city or met him at the reformatory, when you were caUed upon to lecture before the inmates? A. Precisely. Q.'Can you say whether, in your opinion, Mr. Brockway is a proper person to have ttie authority to adminisiter corporal pun- ishment upoin inmates — ^I am requested to ask that question? A. I know of no man whom I should consdder' more safe and more proper. Q. Suippose thati you knew that upon different oioc.aBio!ns he 'had stnack men over the head with such severity as to make their eyes bloodlahoft and the flesh black and blue around them, and 1190 out the fleeihi on ihe sade cwf their iheads, and over tiheir eyesi what wotdd yotu then say? A. I should say that unlessi always Mr. Brockwa.y had aoted in self -defense, or to resist an attack, I should believe liiat he had, in my opdinkxni, commi'tited' an error of judg- ment. Q. That he had dome wrong? A. Yes; thiat' he had oonunitted an erroip of judgment^ and I should, if I were iu authoirity, endeavor to convince h m , tihat his judgmemtt had been erroneous, but I should not believe Mr. Brockvray had acted from rancor. Q. fSuppose it was his custom to inflict blows of that kind upon all occasiOiDs when an inmate, while he was receiving corporal punishment, turned his head or his eye from the point toward vvhich he was directed to look, and suppose upon every occasion when the inmate turned his eye from that point he received blows of the character I have referred to, what would you then say as to whether he is a proper person to be clothed with tha't right, to iuflict corporal punishment ? A. I should still say, in view of Mr. Brockway's career and his merit, that a rule of the board of managers indicating such methods of treatment, would suffice, and I should be strongly inclined to favor continuing him in his office. Q. That isn't what I ask; I asked what would you say as to his being a fit person to be oloitihed with tihe right to imflict corporal puhishment upon inmates ? A. The answer I have just given seems to imply the opinion that he would be a safe man, because otherwise I should not wish to see him continued in office under the new rule; if Mr. Brockway'is proved to have given these blows, that he has done so because he desired to gain a certain psycho- logical effect; he wisth'ed the inmate to become trained enough to look at that particular point in the waU, and he used this means to impose restraint upon him, to help him to self-restraint. Q. Used what is termed a paddle; if he used the hanxile of the paddle, struck one of the inmates on the side of the head, cutting a deep wound in the side of the head, would you justify that ? A. Fi'om what I have already said, it would follow a fortiori. Mr. Stanchfleld. — No such case is proven. Mr. Litchfield. — -Mr. Brockway testified on one occasion at least he had struck an inmate over the head with the wdoden handle of the paddle, 'and that an abrasion had resulted there- from to the extent of letting blood from it. Mr. Stanchfleld. — I think he admitted to an abrasion in the skin. Mr. Litchfleld. — Th^t on one occasion he had struck an inmate over the head with the wooden end of the paddle, and that it was 1191 done with, suclt force that a cut and blood had resulted therefrom. , Mr. Stanchfleld. — I think he said it had made an abrasion of the skin. lifl*. Liltdhfleld. — 'He ■roluntaxily testified he had struck the inmate over the head. Mr. Sta>nchiield. — ^ Judge Grilbert uses the expression "a deep wound." Judge Gilbert. — ■ An abrasion of the skin sufficient to cause the /blood to run, what would you say in refereuce to that? A. I should regret any such action, and considei it unwise. Q. You couldn't jusi^y it upon any tfceory, conduct of that kind? A. I siaidi deliberately unwiise, because I bteliere that whlatevteir Mr. Brockway does in such cases is done in the belief that it wUl tend to the reformation of the criminal, and that, therefore, if he should adopt methods they would be due to errors of judgment and not to th'e influence of passion; if I believed him to be capable of acting in a passionate spirit I should not be wairranted in saying that he is a safe man. , Q. From what you believe or think you know of Mr. Brockway,' you think he never, upon any occasion, would allow himself to become excited or allow his actions to be governed by passion in any way, that is, while engaged in inflicting corporal punishment? A. That has been my idea of him. Q. If tbat idea is incorrect, if he is not such a man as tha^t, then you would not entrust him with this power ? A I certainly should not. Beoess. APTEKNOONi SESSION. Ered. H. MJEsi, being diuly siwloimi tesiifieid: Exaaniiinied! by Jiudge Gilblert: Q. Wlfitefpe do yon rieside? A. New York. Q. Whiaitl is your oocupaltioin? A. Maniufaiotujneir aitl pnesieiit. Q. In wtot pairtltadair line of goods? A. Severail Minieisi of goods tihait are miadie in the prisons. Q. Dealer imi lairtilcieH made in tihie variouis pirdisofosi in tthm Staltie? A. Yes, flilr. i Q. Hajve you dieialt in arttficlleis manulactbuired inl the Elmiira refooranatary? A. Yes, sir. ,Q, IToln how lomig a period of tune? A. Abototl twelve yeansL Q. Any painticnliair line? " A. Biooimisl aaid Wajrd'warie and fuaMiltinlre. 1192 Q. Diiirtag thle time tUait you have been dieaJing in airti'clea mami- f actuined art; itte iiefo!nniartiary> hiave you luad oooaisioB frequently to visdt tihe reformiatoiry? A. Yes, sdr. Q. Gam you giine us an idea about often you' ihiaive visiited it during tih.e taime youi JuaT^e (heen^ engaged in puncliasiing itilie articles? A. During tlie flrsit five yeairts I had cbiarge of the manufaotuming buisiness at tJie rtefoirinatoiry, and I wa® there sub- fltantijailly all the while; during the la^ five years I ha.ve been there occasiomally; that is, once in two weeks or once a month. Q. From .about 1884 »to 1889 .yooi resided ait the refonnajtoiy? A. Yes, stiir; amd from 1879 to 1884, I was clerk of the, refoimiaitory. Q. Fiiom 1889 to 1894? A. I have been thefte ocoaisiJonally once in two on three weeks or a momth for a day or two at a time. Q. While ttaiis employed land thus connecited in a buisiness here with, the refoimiatapy, you have learned' conisideriable with fefer- ence to the manaer in which the Teforaniatoiry is conducted? A. Yes, e&r. Q. Did you, during the time, learn anything in reference to the manneii in which the inmates were disciplined? A. Yes, Mr. Q. Whiait hare you to say with refarenoe to that; with refereace to the discipline; the maoner in which the inmates were dis- ciplined? A. I don't just catch your qoiestion; that is, whether the discipHnie was good? Q. Did you observe anyrtMng particulaiily with reference to it? A. I observed the general discipline of the instttution which I consider to be all right. (Quesrtilon repeiaited.) A. I should say that the law undier which the reformatory was conducted was carried out, which includes the discipline. Q. That is all you can say about that? A. I could go on and detail. ' Q. You may do iso; flusit, you may refer 1x> the monitor system so far as yiou observed it? A. When I was there constantly in '84 and for the five years following that — Q. Grive us the particularH with reference to what you observed while you were clerk, before '84? A. During the 'time the men were sentenced under the indtefinite law of 1877, were, at that time, placed on their arrival in the second otr pmobatioinary grade and a careful account was taken of their daily actions, and theii' daily progress in siohool, in Mibor and. in conduct, and that daily routine was reported as accurately from it by a system of blank reports, and as the man progressed through the institution, six months of parfeot marking in the second grade entitled him to promotion to the first grade and six months of perfect penfoiimf ance in the grade enititleid him to a co'usideration before 1193 tine board of mamagenai to deiteinninie lais to the pinoiba.- bdlity of iuis , living art libetrty witJiout TidLartiLnig tte law and on tlie detenninai^on of the boaird h^ was lalloiwied to go at large after a ai)tuart4om was pixwided for kim, and a report eiveiry nionth, to the superintendemt or man- agers; six moetli® of perfect perfoiranaiiice on parole and the discretion of the maniagensi emtitled hika tO' an absolute release; on -tiie other Ihand, if he wais not perfect he was relegated, to the third or convict grade and go ttoough. the same routine again. i Q.' What have you to say with] reference to tlhe trade schools, etc. ? A. There wasi a very 'oomplete Bysibem of tnaide instruction which, the men were, at the time I was there, given, instruc- tion mostly in the evening, and in the sitenognaiphy and telegrajphy branches with which I was moist famMiair; I taught the class in stenography for isome time; I found that the men progressed and quite a large proportlkMi of them were proficient enough when they were released to take positions and have aided a good many of the men tO' get on after they have left the institution. (J. Have you, to quite an extent, kept track of the ex-inmates to observe their conduct or bearing 'after they were ddschainged from the reformatory? A. Yes, sdlr; I meet them very often. Q. What can you say, from the oibseirvaitaon which you have made, with reference to: the reformationi that has been effected in those prisons? A. I know, perhapsi, 100 that are now gxyiid, self-snistaining citizensi; I dom/t know but more, but I know of that miamy, at least. Q. Doi ycln know of any or cam you' give the per cent of those that have failed to become good, self -isuistalning citizens? A. Do you mean the ratio of the numlber of my acquaintances? Q. You say yon know of a hiunjdred? A. I say a. large pro- portion, above seventy -five per cent, of the men' that I have met . that have been released are doSln|g' well. Q. What have you toi say of the other twenty-five per centi? A. I should say I have met them and they are out of prison. Q. I am. requested to ask you i!f the 100 that you refer to were e&inmates who, sol far' as you can say andl know, are making good, self-sustaining citizens, and that youi know of about twenty- five others that are not; is that the way you wish to be under- stood, or' that you know of about 100 ex-convictsi of whom about seventy-five ^are doing well and about twenty-flve are -not?" A. That isl it. ' , Q. Yon know in all about lOO ex-convnictsi? A. I .say a hundred; I say it without thought; I thiiilk fully a hundred or, perhaps, more. 150 1194: Q. Aiboufb sevemtiy-flve <# those are idoinig well asoA aJbout} twenty-flve are not, as fan as you can judge; I am requested to ask you if you ever testified: for Mr. Brockway upon any previoms iitvestigation? A. I testified at p-evious investigations. Q. Do you recolleict wikeul tihiat was? A. In 1886 audi 1882, I guess. Q. This is the tMrd time you have been a witness for thuej insrtSitution? A. Yes, air. Q. For aibout ten' years you have been dealing in goods manu- fax;tu!Ped, you say, at the refonaatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were they manufaotuxed for you, or did you purchase them as gxx)ds manufactured at the reformatory? A. Some of them were made for me and others I ipurchased. ' Q. Made under the contract system? .A. Yes. Q. Other goods you purohased the same as you would purchase from any other manufacturer? A. Y^ sir. Q. "WhUe you were mamuf aicturing by the day of iinmate labor, you were brought into frequent contact with the inmates of the prison? A. Yes, sir. Q. The opinions, etc., which you have gflvem and) the state- ments which you have made are based largely upon the infornia- tion you derived when you were thus related or connected with the institution? A Yes^ sir. By Mir. Liitichfleld: / Q. You were asked if you knew amjything about the discipline of the institution; do you know anything about the punishments inflicted as part of that discipline ? A. T Imow generally about it. Q. You do not know of your own knowledge ? A. Never saw any inflicted. ; Q. You never saw a man paddled ? A. No, sir. John Green, No. 2, being- duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Were you ever confined in the Ehnira reformatory ? A. I was. Q. When were you sent to the reformatory ? A. March, 1888. Q. For what offense? A. I refuse to answer. (Question repeated.) A. Manslaughter. Q. Bid you plead guilty ? A. No, sir. vQ. You stood trial ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Upon conviction you were sent to the reformatory ? A. I was. Q. What was your age at the time ? A Eighteen. 1195 Q. Did you give your age to the prison authorities as seven- , teen? A. I vFas convicted in one year and sentenced in the next. Q. Did you appeal from tlie conviction ? A. No, sir; I did not Q. Had you ever been arrested before that ? A. No, sir. Q. Are you now engaged in business ? A. Yes, sir. .Q. Business of your own ? A. Yes, sir. Q. How long have you been engaged in conducting a business of your own ? A. Going on fourteen months. Q. You say you went to the reformatory March, 1888 ? A. Yes, sir. i Q. When wei-e you released? A. I think the latter part of August, 1892. Q. Wheui were you absolutely released ? A. March, 1893. Q. While in the reformatory . were you punishted ? A. I was. Q. How many times ? A. I think it was twice. Q. Were you reduced to the red grade ? A. I was. Q. How many times were you reduced to that grade ? A. Twice. '! I Q. Was it while you were in the red grade the first time or the sc-cond time that you were punished ? A. I think I was punished whUe I was in the first time and once while I was in the. second time. I Q. How many blows did you receive the first time ? A. I can't exactly remember; about eight. ■ Q. How many the second time ? A. About eight; about three the first time. Q. After tbe second punishment you worked your way out ? A Yes, sir.-' ' ] Q. Hov(r long did you remain in the second grade that time, the red grade ? A. Six months. Q. How long did you remain in the second gi'ade, the black suit grade ? A. Six months. ; Q. How long did you remain, in the blue suit ? A. About four or five months. Q. Then you were released ? A. I went befor^e the board of managers, and they authorized my release. Q. 'What have you to say with reference to the effect of the punishment on yourself ? A. It done me all the good in the world; if it hadn't been, for that I think I would have been in State prison to-day; if I hadn't beten brought to a sense of my duty I would have went on in my old way, and the final result would be I wouldn't care an iota what became of me and the first thing I know I would have been landed in Clinton prison. 1196 Q. You claim the punishment you received caused you to observe the rules of the reformatory ? A. Yes, sir. Q. And conduct yourself in such a manner thkt you gained your freedom ? A. Yes, sir. Q. What trade did you learn while you were there ? A. Iron molder. Q. Had yoiu any trade before you went tihere? A. No, sir. Q. What tradle or otccupaitibn aiPe you following now ? A. Tr-uolc- man. Q. What have you to 'say with referemce to the inma,te monitor sj'Stem.? A. I think it is very good, Q. What are yOur reaisons for sayiuig that? A. A man placed in that position works his way from the lowest grade up to the top; confidence is placed in him; he i!a put over his feillow-inmateis ; he knows what a report means, whait' it calls for, amd wliat the inmate lolsea by getting a report; he will carefully weigh in the, balance befbre giving an inmate a report and see whether he deserves it or not, and if he de'sen'es iti he will give it to him; if there is any evidence the man couldn't help ,doing the act he oommitbed he won't report him,; on the other hand, the citizen officer dlon't take that into consideration at all; he is puli tihere he thiffllts, and from a sense of duty he has nothing to do but report a man ; if he sees a man doing anything out of the way he will write out a report; he don't care) what a man loses or is to gain by it. Q. You mean the inmate monitor is more careful or solicitous with reference to the rights of the inmate than the citizen moni- tor? A. Yes, sir; because he understands the result better than the citizen officer. ^ Q. I take it, from what you say, you haven't anyf complaint to make of ,the markiDig which caused you to be reduced from the citizen suit grade to the third grade ? A. I deserved all I got. Q. Both in marking anidi puniishmenti? A. Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. You say you were punished by going into the bath-room, ajud you had several blows the first time and' more the second; were those blows .serere or moderate blows? A. Very moderate. Q. Were you hit anywhere else? A. No, sir. Q. Not struck on 'the head or shoulders or anywhere else? A. Only on the buttocks. By Judge GrUbert: Q. What were you punished for? A. The first time was for stealing a pair of glove®; the second time was for receiving, I Huiik, somewheres around nineteen yellow reports in one monrtJi. 1197 Q. You say the charges were true and yooi were justly pun- ished? A. Yeis, sdr. Q. Won't you reflect a moment anid see whether your answer was correct when you stafiedi that you never had been an-regbed before you were arrested for the offense for which you wprei sent to the reformatory? A. Might have been arrested for malicious conduct, or something like that. , Q. Didn't you state to' the authorities at tlie reformatory that you hajd been arrested twice before? A. I might have been; it islips my memory thoiugh. Q. Is your mem.ory so fraiil now that you are unable to tell that, you can't recollect whether yoiu were an-ested twice before? A. It is just this way; every time I got arrested I don't -v^^ant to keep that fresh, in my memory; I want lb bury the past; I don't want U1 keep that in my mind or thi'nk of it; it ism't what ami young man ought to think of; yon can't blame me for making a mistake. Q. Have you been arrested at any time since you came from th.p reformatory? A. Onioe; yes, sir. Q. TVTiat was that for? A. Taking a little too much on a oer tiain occasion. ' Q. Intoxication? A. Yes. Q. Have you been arrested for anything ejee since that? A. No, A'. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Were yoai punaslhed in any other way at the reformatory ' except by being paddled ? A. No, sir; I was put down in the rest cure until that afternoon. Q. You were put in thie rest cure cells; were you ever put in the solitaries ? A. They have two kind of cells there, one set they call the solitaries and the other, set they call the rest cure; I was in the rest cure. Q. Were you in the square cells or three-corneired cells ? A. The cell I was in was three-cornered. " Q. Those are the solitaries; how long were you there; how many times were you there ? A. Only the once. Q. How long were you confined there? A. I went there in the morning and was taken out the next afternoon. Q Were you chained down ? A. No, sir; I was not. q". Were the solitaries light ? A. Yes, sir; they were; the one I was in. By Judge G-ilbert: Q. On this occasion when, you say you were confined that wa« in the three-cornered ceU ? A. Yes, sir. 1198 Q. I see by th'e record furnished that you were received in the reformatory ]\Iarch 1, 1888 ; when do you say you were convicted ? A. In January or February, I think; I was tried in January, 1888. Q. Do you say you remainied in prison from January, the time when you were tried, until March first, when you were taken to the reformatory ? A. I was brought up first in January, and my trial was put bacli in Februaiy on account of one of the associate judges breaking hie leg; my trial took place in February and took three days, and th^n I was remanded to jaU to receive my sen- tence, and after receiving my sentence I was remanded in jaU until the transfer officer came after me. Q. What is your birthday ? A. Twenty-flve in January. Q. Your age at the time you were convicted was 17 ? A. That age was given for one certain reason. Q. Why did you give it ? A. My crime was a capital crime, • and' my friends thought if I went over that the difference would be very great. Q. You gave your age a year younger than you really was ? A. J didn't; my friends did. Q. Did your friends answer for you the questions which the court put to you in reference to your age, occupation, etc. ? A. No; I answered those myself. Q. You gave the statement you were 17 ? A. Yes, sir. Q. "VMien in fact you were 18 ? A. I can.'t say whether I was or not. Q. You Ivnow yon were convicted or sent to the reformatoiry IiJarc-h 1, 1888, and yon say you were sentenced on the last day of- February, 1888 ; A\hen you were called up to be sentenced then, you had to answer certain questions in reference to age, birth, occupa- tion, etc.; my question is thisi: Did you at that time say that you were 17 or 18 years of age ? A. I can't remember what I did say. Q. Didn't you tell the officers of the reformatory when ydu were taken there that you were 17 years of age and didn't they so make a record? A. It is so lomg ago I forget it. Q. You said you stated you were 17 for a reason ? A. My friends had the reason; I didn't state whether I was 17 or not; I don't know whether I did or not. Q. Did I understand you to say you stood trial ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you go upon the stand as a witn.ess in your own behalf ? A. Yes, sir. , Q. Were you sworn as to your age ? A. I couldn't tell you whether they swore me to my age or not. Q. Have different parties requested you or spoken to you about giving evidence upon this investigation ? A. No, sir; nobody at all. 1199 Q. Didin't somebbay mk you to appieiair hleope? A.. Mr. Happe asiked. mie if I would come. Q. Did he ask you wiiajt you would state if called? A. ISPo, sir; I stated to Mr. Stanchfleld what I would state if 1 was called. Q. Mr. Stauohfield and HJoppe weire toother? A. No, sir; Mr. Starachfield was alone in the room lati the time; Mr. Hoppe was in the front office. WiMiami Smith, No. 3, being duly sworn', testiBed: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Hare you (fver been in' the Elmireu refoirmartiory? A. I haive. Q. Wheni were you sent to the reformiatoiry? A. Decemiber 15, 1891. ' • Q. What offense ? A. Grand larceny. Q Did you plead guilty? A. I did. Q. What was ylour age at the time you were sent? A. Twenty- three. Q. Have you now employment of your own? A Yes^ sir. Q. Carry on businesB of your oiwn? A. Yes, siir. Q. Whait iH jOTir businieas? A. If I dOn?t have to state that I wouldn't like to state it; it is a business which would give away my identSfty; there aire only three in New York and Bbwklyni in that line of businesa Q. One side is insisting upon the answer? Judge Grilbeirt. — I will say thasi, that I think it isi no more than right, if ex-convicts appear in here to testify iu reference to this mjatter- and they, ia consequence of their soiciial oir business rela- tions, desiiire to have their busiaess kept seciret oir theiir plaioe of pesidenice, oir place of busSnessi klept secret, I think it isi mo more than right they should be permitted toi do so. Mr. White. — I undietrstand thiS' man is engaged in a disi- reputable busiiness at the pacesent time and I think it should be known to the coomiittee, at least. The witness. — I will give the committee my^ card, and isee whether that business is a disireputaible one, as you say, Mr White. — I^ think I Atould! Ible made aware. The witnesBL — I refuse toi give it. Mir Litchfield, — I think the question can btei so modified asi to meet the point. '-, Judge Gilbert. — Fom the priesent I will withdraw the question. Mr. Litchfield. — The committee will insist on knowing what bumness the' witnessi isi in; otherwise we wouldn't want to take the testiknony. . ,' Mr. White. Haven't I the right to know, as representing the pjxMecutiion, what has oooTipaitkra is? 1200 Mr. litidhfield. — The undieinstajidiBg was tte mame and tte plae monifor. Q. So far as your experience goes yota claim that the oomviot monitors were more favorable to you than the citizien monitor? Ai Yes, sir. By Mr. Litchfield!: Q. Were you ever a momdtoir yourself? A. Only in ithe night school and trade school during the day ; after I was mustered out of school I was assigned as monitor in the night sohooil and also the iTade school. Q. Were you an officer in the military? A. Yes, sir. Q. What rank? A. Lieutenant. By Judge G-ilbert: Q, I am requested to repeat the question, what is your present occupation ? JIT. Babcock. — Thaitl we will object -to because the witneiss objecta. , . ^i. . Judge Gilbert.— As I understand yOu you refuse to state , that publiCily, but are willing to startle it to the. committee and also to Mr. White, whkj represents the prosecution. Mr Litchfield.— The commitbee rules the witness sihould give us his business and we will esdiibit it privately to Mr. White, but : it will not go ouiil in the public records. 151 ' 1202 By Judge Grilbert: Q. While you were in the reformatory were you sick"? A. Yes. Q. In the hoapital ? A. No, sir. Q. Did you apply for medical treatment ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you receive it ? A'. Yes, sir^ Q. Were you eyer charged with malingering, claiming to be sick when you were not ? A. Once. Q. Was it true you Avere , pretending ? A. I wasn't charged V, ith malingering, but Dr. Wev Claimed I was worrying and not really sick, and he so reported to the superintendent, and I had a special interview with the superintendent. Q. Didn't they make that charge against you ? A, Yee, sir. Q. Weren't you marked for that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you ask for an, investigation ? A. No, sir. Q. You submitted ix> the charge ? A. I submitted to the charge. \ Q. So the records show you were charged with malingering and jou didn't deny it or ask for an investigation ? A. No. Q. Were you also charged with lying and marked for that ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did] you ask to have that charige investigated? A. I did. Q. Was it investigated ? A. I didn't get aay regular investi- gation; I went and saw the superintendent and he said the Evi- dence was so conclusive that he couldn't do anything about it, but afterwards I had spoken to Colonel Bryan, the officer who made the charge against me, and proved it was a mistake on his part and the report never hurt me; it stood against me, but as far as my I'elease was concerned it didn't affect my standing. ^ Q. You now claim that charge was not true ? A. I do, sir. Q. It was made by a citizen officer ? A. Yes, sir; that is the only report I ever got that was really unjust."" Q. By whom was the' charge that you were malingering ? A. That was by the physician. Dr. Wey. Q. That was unjust, wasn't it ? A. I was able to go to^ work, only I didn't feel as though I cared to go anywhere, I felt down.- hearted and worried; shortly after that flrst-class report I got fbr lying I worried over it and fretted and didn't care whether I went to work or not, and I laid in. Q. You begun to think there were indications you would dfop into the lower grade ? A. Yes, sir. Q. That aiSected your mind to such an extent that you were unable to work ? A. I don't know as I was unable, because when I had to go out I could work; I thoTight I was unable. Q. How many occupations have you followed sin.ce you haTe been released from the reformatory ? A. Only two. Q. How long did you follow the first occupation ? A. Three occupations. Q. How long did you follow the first one ? A. Two months. Q. How long the second one ? A. About four months. Q. How long the third ? A. This is my third month. Q. Were either of those occupations an occupation or trade you learned while in the reformatory ? A. No, sir. Q. So far as your employment was concerned since you have left the reformatory you have moti adopted! the trad© you learned there? a. No, sir. Q. Will you also state to the committee and to Mr. White all three of the occupations you have followed ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you object to stating two of tke occupations in public ? A. Awning maker and collector of insurance. / / Q. Your present employment you object to stating? A. Yes, sir. ' , By Mr. Litchfield: Q. Is your present employment that which you gave to me ? A. Yes. , By Dr. Smith: Q. Did you like cabinet making ? A. Yes, sir. Q, Did yoiu imve the choice of it when yoiu wetntti there? A. Yies, sir. By Judlge GUbertl: Q. I am. requested to aaik you! i!f, sinioei your release^, you have been iln! any way connected with or if you frequenti the race- connse? A. Not llaMy; did before I went up there. Q. Have you since? A. I have been there sievenal timesi? Q. Do you come under the title of "tout?" A. No, sir. Q. Or "caipperi?" A. If I dbi I would be betten off, probably. Q. Yoiu denjy you have so conducted' younsielif that you can be classed umider either one of those names? A. 1 do. ' Q. Did you have any ooouifition at the tnack? A. No, sk. •Q. Did you have amy business) there? A. No, sir. Q. Neither by way of gambling in' any form or shape? A. When I wenit there I uised td bet Q. Were you still on! parole when' you were first spoken to about .coming before the committee? A. Noy sliir; I never was spoken to; I offered my evidence aiftier I received my ■abm- lute release. 1204 Q. Did you offer to give evidence befoipe yow received your absolute release? A., No, sir.. Q. Who did you, make ttie offei- first) to? A. To Mr. Brockway himself by letter. Q. That was after you understood! the investigaition bad 'been inaugurated? A. After the investigation, it was iwaugurated for quite a while; it was only last Decemiben I made that offer. Q. To whom did you report monthly? A. Mr. Ivimbell. Q. A resident of the city? A. The agent of the reformatory. Q Have you been charged with the comanissiou of amy offense since you left the i-eformatoi-y? A. No, sir. Q. Haveni't been arrested since? A. No, sir. Q. Were you e\'er arrested for any other offense than that which you were sent to the refoiTnatory for? A. No, sir; I had , about a dozen affidavits settinig that forth when I was sent up tliere. ' 1 Q. "What was it you were charged with having stolen? A. MisappipapriatLng f 100 was the specific charge. Q. What employmenlt were you emiga'ged in before you went to the reformatory? A. roUector. Q. For whom or what? A. T wmildn't like to eiay that. Q. For whom were you collectxw? A. There's a give-away question. \ Q. That would disclose your M entity? A. Yes, sir. Mr. White.- — It is a matiter of record I'm the! courts. Q. Were you charged with having misapprapri&ted moneys ■ that you collected as a collector? A. Yes, sir. Q. Y sir. Q. While you were acting as an inmate moinitor were you ever accused of reporting inmates falsely, making false marks against them ? A. I never was accused; they would send the repoft back and deny it, say it wasn't so. ' Q. Would that charge be investigated ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Was it sustained ? A. If he considered that he was womg at the investigation the report would be cancelled after due investigation. Q. Isn't it true a great many of those reports you made against the inmates were cancelled ? A. I don't understand the question, Q. That the charges you made against the in:ij|>ates were can- celled because they were found not to be correct ? A. I couldn't answer that question, because I don't know whether the reports were cancelled or not. 1207 Q. Isn't it true the inmates very generally claimed that you made false marks against them ? A. It is generally a custom in the institution if a man gets a report he gets it for nothing; that is generally the cry. Q. How was it when reports were made against you, by which you were sent from the second to the lowest grade, were they all correct ? A. I didn't deny the reports,; it was true; I was caught in the act. Q. Caught in the various acts charged against you ? A. Yes, sir.' Q. It was true you were properly charged with disturbing the hall ? A. Yes, sir. Q. True yon were properly charged with breaking a machine ? A. I thifak the third month or second month I broke the foot of a machine in the brush shop. Q. That was true ? A. Yes, sir. Q< You were properly charged with fraud at the? examination ? A. I will have to get around about that case. Q. You can say ? A. According to the investigation of that report I was, and take it in the other light I was not. Q. You say you were not in fact gmlty ? A- There is two ways about it; I beuiig a new man in that institution, the second exami- nation I put through, one man sets next to the other, and I hap- jvened td turn that way towami the end of ihh ix)om; by doing that T was charged with looking over a man's examination; I didn't know at that time when a man was examined he was supposed to set there and not turn; according to that the report was right. Q. Didn't you turn your head in such a manner as to gain some information in reference to tiiat examination ? A. I don't think I needed the information. , Q. y^on sa/ that so far as that matter is concerned it may be regaiPded as fraud and may not? A. I ^n't think it would be regarded as fraud. Q. Then the report is false ? A. I think that question ought to be taken out. , ^ Q. Certain charges were made against you, and one was you practised fraud at an examination; you can answer yes or no, whether that is true or not ? A. I wiU answer yes. Q. You were also charged with lying; how about that ? A. I did lie; yes, sir; An order to save a report; save myself from the third grade. Q. Out of place — was that true ? A. I have been there. Q. You were accused of being impudent ? A. Yes; I was impu* dent to Instructor Upton. 1208 Q. Violating rules while in a position of trust — is thiub true ? A. Yes, sir; I did. ! Q. Receiving tobacco — that you concede ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Is it true you frequently assisted another man at his woric ? A. I did; yes, sir. Q. You received warning and admonitions on various oocasions^ something like sixteen times? A. ]!fotic€jsi in regard to what? Q. Everything, including parole notices and all? A. Yes, sir. John Doe, No. 5, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Grilbert: Q. Were you ever in the Ebnira reformatory? A. Yes, sir. Q. "V^lien were you sent there? A. Im July, 1883. Q. For what offense? A. Grand larceny. Q. Did you plead guilty? A. No, sir. Q. Stood trial? A. Yqs, sir. Q. Found guilty ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were you ever arrested before th^t? A. No, sir. Q. HaA^e you ever been since? A. No, sir. Q. When were you discharged from the reformatory? A. May 30, 1885. Q. When were you absolutely released? A I never got one, because I went direct from there to my home in another State. Q. You were then a resident of another State? A. Yes, jsir. Q. Where was the offense alleged to haive been committed? A. In this city. Q. What State were you then a resident of? A. At that time I was a resident of this city and this State. Q. After your discharge you went into another Stabe? A. I went to my piarents' home. • * Q. What was your age^when you were ^nt to the reformatory? A. Twenty-three. , Q. What was your record while in the reformatory? A. Fairly good. Q. Were you ever ill the red-suit grade? A. No. Q. Were you ever punished in the bath-room? A. No, sir. Q. Did you learn a trade while you were there? A. No, sir. Q. What was your occupation mainly while you were in the reformatory? A. Storekeeper for the hoJiow-ware contract. Q. During the entire time you were there? A. Within the last two months I was taken sick. Q. What was your occupation before yoiu went to the reforma- tory? A. Bookkeeper, 1209 Q. WMle in charge of that diepartmenil; were yom tihrough all parts of the reformatory? A. Ye]S, sir; I had th.e privilege of the entire grounds. Q. And frequently isiaw the inmates in the various deparitrnents oir parts of the refoimatoiry? A. Yes, sir. - Q. Did you frequently see them communicattiig with Mr. Brock- way? A. Yes, sir. Q. What did you observe with reference to the manner in which he treated the convictjsi? A. Nothing more than he would speak to them; I don't know what particular things he was talking about; I never saw anything that would injure the inmate or the superintendent in my eyes. Q. What doi you know with reference to his using profane language to the inmates? A. I never heard him use it in my life. Q. Or the officeiris? A. l^ever. Q. What did you hear or know in reference to the officers using profane language to the inmates? A. I only heard of on^ and he wapi't there very long. Q. So far asi you saw oir know, you; claim: that Mr. Brockway's treatment and conduct toward the inmates was kind and consider- ate? A. Yes, sir. Q. What busiiiess are you folil owing now? A. I am in busines|9 for myself now. Q. What is that business? A. I would rather not state it. Q. What have you to say with reference to the reformation that was brought about in you by being confined in the reformatory and pubject to the treatment there? A. I think my after life has shown it has been salutary. Q. You think, iso fai- as you are concerned, it was beneficial? A. Yes, sitr. Q. Id) what respect? A. It has learned me to look at a great many things in a differen* Ighit tmrn what I did before I went there. Q. Win you be more speciflo? A. Weill, I can'tl say that I coa, only I looked at thingsi in a frivolous way that, siinc© I have been there, I look at more serious now. Q. Did you gO' ow the standi as a witness] in youri own vbehalf on the trial? A. Yes, sdtr. Q. Did you, upon that tirial, testify that you were not guilty of the charge that wasi made against you? A. Yesi, sir. Q. Were y«u, in fact, guilty? A. No, sir; I was) not guilty of it" I had one! jury disagreement, and I wasi convicted- on the second trial. Q. You still say yoiu were not g^ty of the chaipge made against yoiu? A. I sitill say &L 152 1210 Q. Wh.at was tihe diarge? A. Grand larceny; I hadi ctuarge of a branch ofBice down town^ and there was some money mifiBing from that oiBce on Saturdiay 'aifitJepnoon; I was not in the office at the time i* was takemi; I had twoi boyel and salesmen there under me, but the money was takeaoi fromi my deeik. aaidl I was supposed to be the only one thiartl had the key to that drawer. Q. What was the amount? A. One hundred and fifty dollars. Q. You still say, under oath, you were innooemiti of that entire charge? Al I still say it. Q. I am requeste|d to ask yoiu how it happened you. appear here as a witness? A. I was asked to; when I read of the accounts in tihe paperi of all itihesei persons I wroite to Mr. Brock- way and told hiTn if I could be of lany service tO' hi inii I would be glad to do so. Q. From the treatment you receiitved and the bemiefits you receiTedi you felt kindly towairdi hiim: and' wanted to do what- ever you could to aid him in this investigaitioni? A. Yes', sir. By Dr. Smith: Q. Did they have inmate manitons while you were there? A. Only two. Q. You hadn't much experience wiltih the Intraatesl? A. I haven't much faith with them. , Q. You prefer citizens? A. Yes; while it might be all right in a general way, it works hard, beciause sometilmesi you get a man -who is domiineering, and sraneltalmes there are revengeiful feeHtogs in a miami; I should not care to be a monitor myseM. Richard Eoe, 'No. 6, being duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge OUbert: Q. Were you ever confined in the Elmira reftormaifcoryt? A. Yes, sir; I arrired there April 1, 1892. Q. What was your age at the time? A. Twenty. Q. Where were you siemt from.? . A. New York city. Q. For what offense? A. Attempted burglary, third degiree. Q. What was your age when you were sent there? A. Twenty. Q When were you paroled? A. August 9, 1893. Q. Have you reoeiTedi your final dilsidharige? A. No, sir. Q. You are now on your parole? A. Yes, sir. Q. And are ^making your monthly report? A. Yes, sir. Q. Were yoiu ever arrested for any either offense than the one you were sent to Eknina for? A. No, sfilr. Q. DidI you pleadi guilty? A. Yesi, sir. 1211 Q. While in' the refomaatoty were you puiniisih.eid? A. Yes, sir. Q. Howl msmy tunes? A. Omcei. Q. How many blows did you reoeiye? A. Tliree. Q. Sure? A. That was all I receiTed. Q. For what offense? A. StriMng a mam with a gun. Q. Wihile you were perfoiranitng military duty? A. Yes^ sir. Q. Were you reduced to the second grade while you were there ? , A, Yes, sir. Q. Were you punished more than once in the bath-room ? A, No, sir. Q. Sixuck upon any other part of your body but upon your but- tock or back ? A. Ifo, sir. Q. "What trade, if any, did you learn while you were there ? A. Plumbing. Q. What trade have you following since you came out ? A. Plu3](ibing. Q. Engaged in that now ? A. No, sir. Q. What business are you engaged in ? A. Beach powder. Q. What have you to say with reference to the reformation that was brought about in you by the discipline, etc., that you received at the reformatory ? A. I think the place, the way it is, is a very good place; while I was there if I had had the sense I did have when I cajne out I never would have went there in the first place; I know a good deal more now than wbat I did when I first went there. Q. After you had received the punishment, the spanking, were you then more careful, did you observe rules more carefully than you did before ? A. Yes, sir. i Q. What have you to say with reference to any inmate who tries to observe the rules, as to whether he would have any diffi- crlty in getting along ? A. The rules up there are very easy to get along with if you undfecpstand them; when I get punished I didn^t undenstand them; I was only there three weelas. Q. Before you got punished ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You went there April 1, 1892, and I see by the record you v,'ere punished April nineteenth ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Yoxi say at that time you didn't understand the rules ? A. I didn't understand the rules. Q.' When.yoiu flrist enitleiped the mefoirmaJtbipy didn't Mi-. Brookwiay caution you ? A. Yes, sir; he gave us all an interview. Q. And informed you that you must obey certain rules, and it you did obey them that you would have no trouble in getting along ? A. Yes, sir. < Q. And if you did not obey them you would have trouble ? A. Yes, sir. 1212 Q. You say up to April nineteenth you hadn't made yourself familiar with the rules ? A. Yes, sir. Q. After thart you had no trouble ? A. No, sir. Q. Were you permitted to work outside of the reformatory at any time before you were discharged ? A. No, sir. Q. The record shows April 20, 1892, you were reduced tb second grade; you were punished before you were reduced ? A. Yes, sir. Q. You may describe the punishment you received, the treat- ment you received in the bath-room ? A. I entered the bath-room; Mr. Brockway says, " Striking boys with a gun;" I says, " Yes, sir;" he says, " Get over there, and take your pants down;" I got' over there and took my pants down, and received my punishment. Q. "WTiat did he tell you to do when you went over to the place where he told you to go; what further did he tell you to do, if anything ? A. Told me to put my hands up. Q. What dse ? A. That is all. Q. Told you to look at a certain place ? A. Told me to turh to my right, turn my head away. Q. While in that position you say you received how many blows? A. Three. Q. What else did he say to you while you were there, anything? A. No, sir; not as I recoUect. Q. What did he say as you were leaving the bath-room, any- thing ? A. No, sir. , Q. That is all he said to you ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any others there ^ith you at the time ? A. Yes, sir. Q. Any others punished at the same time ? A. Yes, sir. - Q. Did you sec them immediately after they were punished ? A Yes, sir. ' Q. What have you to say with reference to Mr. Brockway'si treat- ment so far as you are concerned ? A. I think the treatment he gives is deserved; it isn't people that get hit' there unless they deserve it. i i Q. I am speaking with referenoe to yourself; whait have you to say with refenence to his treatmen* of you? . A. Hife treatmemit was very gOod to me. Q. You think you deserved whaitever treatment you received ' there, so far as haush tireatmenti is concerned? A. Yeis, sir. Q. What 'have you to say with reference to the inmate monitor system? A. I think iti is a very goofl idea. Q. Were you am inmate momitor'? A. Yes, sir. Q. For how long a time were you inmate monitor? A. I guess It was four or five months. ' Q. Was it an inmate monitor tlhat reported you arti the time you were reduced to the low graide? A. Yes, sir. ' 1213 Q. Wliat did youi think of the inmate mooittor system a* tlhat time? A. I didn/t think much of it at ihasb time. ' Q. After you liadl been made an inmate monitoir . yourself you tShought more of the 'system? A. Yes, sir. Q. Foir how lonig a time did yoTi act as an inmate monitor? A. I c^n't say, for sure; I say four monthgi. Q. You state noiw that at the time you were sent to the reform- atory yon Avere 20 years old? A. Yes, sir. Q. T see the record shows you were 18? A. That isn't necew- sary to explain that, ijs it? Q. It seems a milsitake? A. It isn't neo^sary to answer that; whien I went down there I thought a sentence wouid go lighter on mie if I should say I was younger than what I really was. Q. Did you make the statement that you were 18 yeaais of age* when you were sentenced? A. Yels, isLr. Q. You were sworn then, weren't you? A. No, sir; he asked me when he says: "How old are you, Reilly;" right in front of the bar; it waisn't on' tlie stand. • Q. You were called up to the bar after yom were convicted? A. Yes, sfia*. ■ Q. You were requeslied' to stiate how old you were? A. Yes, sir. (J. And you stated you were 18? A. Yesi, sir. Q. You knew at the time it was not cowect? A. Yes, sir. Q. Don't you remember you were required' to; hold up your hand and, make oath' to 'that? A. No, sir; I wasn't asked: to' raise up my hand at the tjime. Q. You are sure of that?, A. I am positive of that. Q. You knew at the tlime you were stating that which, was not true? A. I knew it wasn't true. Q. Are you sure that you only received three blows; the record shows you iPeoelved' F blows; as we understand , it that signifies six blows? A. I received no six blows;' I received three or four; it, mii,'ht have been four; it couldn/t be more than four. By Mr. Litchfield: Q. It was only three weeks after you got in the reformatory when you were paddled? A. Yes, sir; a boy alongside of me kicked me in the leg; I told him to stop; he kicked me twice, and he kicked me again, and I up and struck him witfa the gun. Q. Didn't the court-martial pronounce it was self-defense? A. No ; I had no business to strike him ; he was paddled^ for kickimg. Q. What was the name of the man?^ A. Barber, 5212. Q. Did you plead guilty to the charge made against you?' A. Yes. sir. 1214 Q. I>d you know how you happened to be caMedl here aiSi a wit- ness? A. No, sir; I do not. ' Q. Had you written to INIr. Bi-ookway? A. No, sir. Q. Or to Mr. Hoppe? A. No, isir. » Q. Did you see Mr. Hopjie or Mr. Starachfield in reference to your being a witness? A. f saw them in Fifteenth street. ^ Q. You saw them at the rooms of the prison aissociation? A. Yes, sir. Q. To ^Yhom do yoiu report? A. Mr. Kimball. Q. You report monthly? A. Yea, mr. , Q. Did you nepoirt obp state to biin thait yoiu would be a witnieisis? A. No. sir. Q. Whlo wequesited you tb ajppeam here? A. I ireoeiTeid a telegnaini first; then I received a typewrittitlen nioilje asking me when he could see me at my addi'ess on different dates of the month; I wrote and I received a subpoena on Friday. Q. In pumstuancie of tihat subpoena you haivie appeaired) heire? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did you have conversation with anyone with reference to the evidienice' yotu should give Were? A. No, sir. Q. Didn't you stfcajtle what your vietwis were in iiefeinencie to the m'annier in which the refonnatoiry is conducted!? A. No, sir. Q. Or ia reference to Mr. Brockwiay? A. No, sir. Q. You must have had some conversation with someone in refterenlce to your being swom here as a witniessi? A. I didn/t ha-ve no coniversatabn what I intend:ed tbi say. / Q, You talked with siomeone in referienice to your being willing to give evidence? A. No, sir; I haven't spoken tb nobody thajt I was vdlling. ' Q- You imderstand until your pairole expires, until you aire finally dBscharged you are liaible to be arrested and taken bax^k to the nefamnaitoiry? A. Yes, sir. Q. You undenstanid that? A. Yes, sir. Q. When, as j-ou undersand it, will yonr parole expire ? A. 1 will be home six months Februajry eleventh. Q. Is yorar levidence influeinlced in any way by the faict' that you have not yet received! your final discharge? A. Not at all; no, sir. By Dr. Smith: , Q. How is it you didn't know thie rules; you said' you didn't know the rules? A. You oan't learn the rules up thieire in three weeks; they talk 'tia yloui albbut 9'is making nine; you don't know what ai nine means when you go there. taas Q. Was it not eKplainedi tb yoiui? A. It iia explaiilnied) to yle gwDiundi? A. YeBi, sir. Q. Doeisn't thie book contain a list of offienisies; theise little noticea that 'aire aent to you conltaim a liBifc of offenses? A. A repoirt. Q. Yes; none of thiose are fuimSishjed you ini addition? A. No, sir. By Dr. Smith: Q. YoiU' isay you were, in thle batth-room when another was pun- ishled? A. Whien I came out of the bteuth-room. Q. YOu di'dni't see >the other one punished? A. No; the question waia aisiked me whethJelP I saw him when he came onit. Q. You were nlOt in the baithnroom whJltei he was bedlng punished? 'A. 'NO' sair. Q. Whiait you were punished fom was an infnaction of military discipline? A. YeS, sir; it was breaking the rulesi of the nefbrmartoiry; etrikinig a man' wilth the gun. Q. That iB a special rule? A. You have no busiiiess to hit any- body back. John Brown, No. 7, beitag duly sworn, testified: Examined by Judge Gilbert: Q. Were you ever in the Elmira reformatory? A. Ye®, sir. Q. When were you sent there? A. In 1889, I think it was. Q. From what place? A. New York; I was living in Brooklyn at the time ' 1216 Q. For wliat offense? A. Grand lairceny. Q. Did yon plead gniltv? A. Yes, sir. Q. ^ATia.l «a« your age when you were sent there? A. Xineteen. Q. T\Tien weiv yon inleaKcd? A. May, 1891. Q. On your parole? A. Yes, sit. Q. Have yoai 'been finally discliarged? A. Yes, sir. Q. TSTien were you diisclxarged finally? A. I think it was in December; I can't remi^nibw exactly what month. Q. Wasn'l it the Ifith of Novenil>er, 1891? A. Or November. Q. WTiile in the reformatory what was yonr record igeneraUy? A. I think my recoi'd was fairly- good. Q. Wei-e you <»\er taken to the bath-room and punished? A. NTo, BIT. Q. Were you cvci- reduced in grade? A. No, sir. Q. Did you l(^ani a trade "while you were there? A. Yes, sir. Q. '^Miat? .'\. Brass flnisliing. Q. What is yonr occupation now? A. Is it aibsolutely neces- sary I should auswer that que,stion? <^ Your occupation is a. legitimate oue, isu't it? A. Yes, sir; I have been at it evci- since I came down from the reftmnatory; I have held if for the last tbrec years. Q. Wha/I. occupatifui had you before you went to the veiovEoa.- ton? A. T was clerk in a dry goods' hoiujse. Q. What wajs th(» offense you were accused of? A. It waB the larceny of a diamond. Q. HaA'e you any objection to explaining the circumstaJicies? A. I have kind of unpleasant recollections labout the circnmistan- ces which I don't care to repeat. Q. TMiat have you to say with reference to the refoTmiation that was brought aJbout in you by being subjected to reformatory dis- cipline? .V. I was ven- wild before I went up to the institution, and I was quieted down considerable while I was there, and when I cajne out I caime out with the idea of doing what was right because I knew it was best for me. Q. Yon learned it was better to' do right? A. That there was only one way to go through life, and that was the rigiht way. Q. So far as you ob^served, what do' you say was Mr. Brockway's treatment of the inmates, whether it was kind or otherwise? A. Entirely dependent upon the way you behaved yoTirself; if yon behaved yourself and done what was right you couldn't be treated, better than what yon were treated there under the cinoumistaacesL Q. "\Miat can you say in reference to ^Ir. Brockway using pro- fane language upon any occasion? A. That I never heard; he always treated me ajS if I was a gentleman while I was there. 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