ry} i a age Ran Pia iene Carey Wapioh ty 0 La HR Cain PRA tH HP CMe aia Pat! it pu ee it ALBERT R. MANN LIBRARY NEw YorK STATE COLLEGES OF: AGRICULTURE AND HoME ECONOMICS AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY ‘ornell University Libra griculture appropriation bill; hearings AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL HEARINGS BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SIXTY-SIXTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION WITH REPORT No. 596 ON THE _ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL, 1921 es WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICH 1920 311629 COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE. Hous OF REPRESENTATIVES. GILBERT N. HAUGEN, Iowa, Chairman. JAMES C. McLAUGHLIN, Michigan. GORDON LER, Georgia. SYDNEY ANDERSON, Minnesota. EZEKIEL 8S, CANDLER, Mississippi. WILLIAM W. WILSON, Illinois. J. THOMAS HEFLIN, Alabama. CHARLES B. WARD, New York. THOMAS L. RUBEY, Missouri. WILLIAM B. McKINLEY, Illinois. JAMES YOUNG, Texas. ELIJAH C. HUTCHINSON, New Jersey. HENDERSON M. JACOWAY, Arkansas. FRED S. PURNELL, Indiana. : JOHN V. LESHER, Pennsylvania. BDWARD VOIGT, Wisconsin. JOHN W. RAINEY, Illinois. MELVIN O, McLAUGHLIN, Nebraska. EVAN J. JONES, Pennsylvania. CARL W. RIDDICK, Montana. J. N. TINCHER, Kansas. 1. KUHIO KALANIANAOLHB, Hawaii. L. G, Hauacen, Olerk. ay :.GRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, House or REPRESENTATIVES, , Tuesday, December 9, 1919. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. The CHarrman. The committee will come to order. I have called the committee together this morning to consider the estimates of appropriations for the Department of Agriculture required for the service of the fiscal year ending June 30, 1921, submitted by the: Secretary. Full and open ‘hearings will be held on the estimates during which we will have before the committee representatives and chiefs of the various burcaus of the department, as well as others interested in the various items who may wish to appear and be heard. The policy will be to scrutinize each item in the estimates most carefully with a view of practicing strictest economy, but of course allowing all just increases which will tend to promote agri- culture. We have with us this morning Mr. Harrison, assistant to the Secretary, from whom we will be pleased to hear first. SUMMARY OF ESTIMATES. STATEMENT OF MR. F. BR. HARRISON, ASSISTANT TO THE SECRETARY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. _ Mr. Jones. May I ask Mr. Harrison just what official position he has? “Mr. Harrison. Assistant to the Secretary. Mr. Jones. Of the Department of Agriculture ? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. ‘Mr. Jones. What are the initials ? Mr. Harrison. F. R. Mr. Trncuer. What estimates are you going to discuss? Mr. Harrison. The regular annual estimates of the department. I will merely make a general statement to the committee about the estimates as a whole. The estimates for the fiscal year 1921, which you are about to consider, aggregate $37,528,102, compared with $33,899,761, the amount carried in the appropriation act for 1920; that is, the current fiscal year.. They involve an apparent increase of $3,628,341. Taking into account, however, the fact that $121,229 is merely transferred from other acts (the sundry civil and the wheat- price guaranty acts), the net increase is only $3,507,112. It should | be pointed out, also, that the item of $1,000,000 for fighting and - preventing forest fires (an increase of $850,000 over the present 3 4 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. appropriation), the item of $1,000,000 for combating foot-and-mouth disease, and the item of $240,000 for the eradication of the pink bollworm of cotton, are simply insurance funds and will be used only in case of necrssity. The committee will be interested to know that, according to the best estimates I can secure Mr. Jones. Are these items increases over the last ? Mr. Harrison. The last items to which I referred are not in- creases, except the appropriation for fighting and preventing of forest fires, which involves an increase of $850,000. ; Mr. Jones. Over your request for that same purpose last time? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. The committee will be interested to know that, according to the best estimates I can secure, the receipts from the various activities of the department, including timber sales, azing privileges, water-power permits, and the like, will amount, uring the fiscal year 1921, to approximately $6,925,000, compared with $6,885,000 during the current year. The amount recommended by the bureaus totaled $41,953,483, an increase of $8,053,722 over the appropriation for 1920. After giving careful consideration to each and every item, and bearing in min the financial situation of the Nation, the Secretary, as you will note, made reductions in the bureaus’ estimates aggregating $4,425,381. He is firmly convinced that the increases approved by him are reasonable, and that they are necessary for the effective prosecution of the work of the department during the next fiscal year. I have prepared the usual statement summarizing the estimates, which, with your approval, I shall be glad to insert in the record. The Coarrman. Does that give the estimates in detail of the bureaus ? Mr. Harrison. It gives the increases by the individual items. We inserted a similar statement last year, as well as in preceding years. I might refer briefly to a few of te larger items. The Secretary is renewing the recommendation, which he made at the last session of Congress, that the name of the Office of Farm Management be changed to ‘‘Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics,” that it be placed on the same basis as other bureaus in the depart- ment, and that an appropriation of approximately $612,000 which represents an increase of about $300,000 over last year, be provided for the conduct, on an adequate scale, of the enlarged program for studies in the field of farm management and farm economics, in- cluding the cost of producing agricultural products, as outlined by the reorganization committee. A plan for the improvement and extension of the crop and live stock reporting service in the Bureau of Crop Estimates, calling for an increase of $550,000, has been developed and is incorporated in these estimates. We are asking for additional funds for administering and protecting the national forests, for investigating important forest preblems <3 Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Before you leave the other matter: Has the plan been set out and the arguments in favor of it in the rint ¢ : Mr. Harrison. It is set out in full in the estimates under the Bureau of Crop Estimates. As I was about to say, we are askin: also for additional funds for protecting and administering the nationa AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 5 forests, for investigating important forest problems, and for aiding private owners in bringing about the practice of good forestry on their holdings- Mr. Jonss. Is that Mr. Graves’s subject ? ‘ Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir; we are also asking for additional funds: for the market news and food products inspection services in the Bureau of Markets. In order to secure greater coordination in the publication and informational work of the oa We are pro- posing to transfer the office of information and the office of exhibits to the division of publications, consolidating all these services under the supervision of the chief of that bureau. We are suggesting increases for the development of other important. lines of work in the various bureaus. I think I ought to call the attention of the committee to the fact that, during the war, prac- tically no provision was made for the extension of research activities other than those which had a direct bearing on war problems. Many of the increases which we have included in the estimates, therefore, contemplate merely the prosecution of work which should have been, and probably would have been, undertaken some time ago but for the unusual conditions growing out of the war. Other increases are made necessary by reason of the large advances which have occurred in the cost of labor, materials, supplies, transporta- tion, and the like, and do not contemplate any increase in the work. In view of the fact that a joint congressional commission is actively engaged upon the task of reclassifying the salaries of Government. reg in the city of Washington and expects to make its report: to Congress in the near future, it was decided to make no provision in these estimates for increases or readjustments in compensation. We have included some new places, however, and the usual transfers have been made from the lump funds to the statutory rolls. I may add that one of the most pressing problems we have before, us now is that- of securing and retaining an adequate, efficient, and con- tented personnel, but we are hopeful that some relief will come through the action of the joint commission. If it does not, we are certainly facing a further decided lowering of efficiency throughout. the service. If the committee has no objection, I would like to insert in the record a letter which the Secretary recently wrote to the Joint. Commission on Reclassification of Salaries with reference, particu- larly, to the salaries of the chiefs of the bureaus in the department, emphasizing the fact that the present compensation is entirely out of proportion with the responsibilities involved. I think it would be interesting to the committee to have the Secretary’s views about this matter. ; The Cuarrman. Without objection, it is so ordered. (The letter referred to follows): OctoBer 13, 1919, Hon. Anprteus A. JonEs, Chairman Joint Commission on Reclassification of Salaries. Dear Senator Jones: In connection with the reclassification of salaries of Govern- ment emplovees, there is a matter which I imagine your commission has in mind but with reference to which I am taking the liberty of expressing my views. I refer to the status and compensation of such responsible officers of the department as the chiefs of the various bureaus. I shall not undertake to express any opinion at this time regard- ing ue status and compensation of the rank and file of the employees of the Govern- ment. 6 -AGRICULTURE -APPROPRIATION BILL. I have’ been impressed for some time with the fact that democracy, if it is to succeed, must be willing to secure and retain in positions of marked governmental responsi- bility men of the highest ability, qualification:, and experience. Many positions in the Government service involving the supervision of vast enterprises now. have attached to them inadequate salaries. The Government is constantly lésing men of the sort I have in mind and is compelled to satisfy itself with replacements of men who, in the judgment of executive officers, may not be thoroughly qualified for the tasks assigned to them. In this department I think the compensation attached to the position of chief of bureau should be increased. The minimum should not be lower than $5,000 per annum and the maximum might well be placed at $7,500, and should certainly not be less than $6,500. At present the salaries of chiefs of bureaus, with one exception, range from $3,500 to $5,000 per annum. The latter figure is less than that now paid by many educational institutions to professors doing no administrative work or to deans of departments, including deans of departments in the agricultural colleges. You realize, Iam sure, what tremendous tasks such bureaus as those of Plant Indus- try, Animal Industry, Markets, Farm Management, Chemistry, Weather, Public Roads, the Forest Service, the Solicitor’s Office, and others have in hand. When we consider the scope of. their work and the responsibilities attaching to the position ol chief, the present compensation seems singularly small. I shall simply give a few illustrations of the magnitude of the tasks involved. Take, for instance, the Forest Service. The chief of that service has under his jurisdiction all the national forests, embracing about 155,000,000 acres of land. The forests have in them one-fifth of the standing timber and involve timber sale operations on a great scale. They support approximately 11,000,000 animals grazing under special permit, giving rise to many important and difficult problems and touching the interests of many thousands of stockmen. Furthermore, the forests contain about 30 per cent of the water power of the Nation and 42 per cent of the water power of the West, and there is invested in water-power projects in or in connection with the forests something over $300,000,000. There are also vast responsibilities involved in the various special uses that are made of the forests, as well as in fire protection and reforestation. All told, the Chief of the Forest Service has under his direction approximately 3,000 employees. Similar facts obtain with reference to each of the other bureaus. The Bureau of Animal Industry, for example, is charged with the administration of many important laws, such as the meat-inspection act, the 28-hour act, and the animal quarantine acts, the direction of the forces engaged in eradicating such important animal diseases as hog cholera, Texas fever (cattle tick), scabies, tuberculosis, and the like, the promo- tion of better live-stock methods, and the betterment of the live-stock industry of the Nation as a whole. There are approximately 5,000 employees in this bureau. The solicitor has many responsibilities. He now has under his direction about 45 lawyers and is the principal legal officer of the department in respect to the administra- tion of about 35 important laws, including the Federal aid road act, the grain and cot- ton standards acts, the warehouse act, the food and drugs act, the meat-inspection act, the animal quarantine laws, the Weeks forestry act, and the laws relating to the national forests. He also advises administrative officers regarding all the rules and regulations of the department, prepares, for submission to the Department of Justice, cases arising under the various statutes intrusted to the department for administra- tion, and cooperates with the United States attorneys in their prosecution. I am also strongly of the opinion that the present limitation of $4,500 on the com- pan that may be paid to scientific and technical employees should be increased. eare called upon to secure the services of some of the most highly trained experts in the Nation, many of whom are sought by industrial enterprises, and it has become increasingly difficult to secure and retain men with the requisite qualifications whose services are necessary in order efficiently to do the Government’s business. While I realize that the Government can not compete with industry in the matter of salaries, still I think that further leeway should be permitted. I sincerely trust that this matter may receive the most earnest consideration of the commission. I recognize that the chiefs of bureaus in other departments are involved, but, as a matter of fact, some of them now receive larger compensation than similar officers in this department. Very truly, yours, ' D. F. Houston, Secretary, Mr. Harrison. I have merely attempted to give the committee a general idea of the estimates and of what they contain. Of course, the chiefs of the bureaus and other officers of the department will appear before you and give the details. Prof. Marvin, Chief of the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 7 Weather Bureau, is here, and, with your permission, will present the estimates of the Weather Bureau which appear on page 25. We will defer until later the estimates of the Office of Secretary and the Office of Farm Management. I may add, in accordance with the pieeestion of the chairman, that I have suggested to the chiefs of the bureaus and others of the department that they prepare brief statements setting forth just what they wish to say about the various items in the estimates, and T believe most of them have done so. We are hoping that they will be given the opportunity to make a connected statement about each item. That, also, is in accordance with the suggestion of the chairman. Mr. Ruprey. Have the various departments made their annual reports ? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. We have 25 complete sets here this morning, and also 25 copies of the Secretary’s annual report. They are available here and can be secured by the members of the com- mittee. I would also like to insert in the record a brief summary of the estimates which I have had prepared. (The statement referred to follows:) Estimates, 1921, United States Department of Agriculture. Increase. Appropriations. ; Apparent.| Actual. Statutory salaries (not including $1,673,540 transferred to new lump-fund item for salaries of forest supervisors, deputy supervisors, rangers, and guards) $536, 960 $86, 180 Lump-fund appropriations 3,091, 381 3, 542, 161 Ota ie cieis' cinialeictye u vintaiansynie aiatara ciarn wi iatoniatarereeimictinisisicre/cmrcicinisicnemi bial mietace aire. 13, 628, 341 | 13,628,341 Appropriation, 1920 ardeare Estimates, 1921, as submitted by bureaus. - 41,953, 4 Increase, 1921, as submitted by bureaus..... - 8,053, 722 Estimates, 1921, as approved by the Secreta 37,528, 102 Increase, 1921, as approved by the Secretary............ soar 3, 628, 341 1 As $41,509 of the increase for rent in the District of Columbia is transferred from the sundry civil act, and the increase of $79,720 for the enforcement of the cotton-futures act merely replaces, in part, certain funds available during the current fiscal year under the wheat price guaranty act, the net increase is $3,507,- 112. Furthermore, the item of $1,000,000 for fighting and preventing forest fires (an increase of $850,000 over the present appropriation), the item of $1,000,000 for combating the foot-and-mouth disease, and the item of $240,000 for the eradication of the pink poll worm of cotton are merely insurance funds and will be used only in case of necessity. ‘ : It is estimated that the receipts from the various activities of the department, including timber sales, grazing privileges, water-power pe and the like, will amount during the fiscal year 1921 to approxi- mately $6,925,000, compared with $6,885,000 during the current fiscal year. : 8 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Statement giving comparison between department estimates and bureau estimates for 1921 . -and appropriation act for 1920. Increase Increase ( Increase . | (4) over or over or | Appropri- are oF apart decrease taj overD Bureau or office, ation in = : —) below | (_) below Tae (—) below | estimates, | }ureau or | (— ; aaa jagricultrual| . office esti- | 23icultural 1920, ° ‘| act, 1920. mates, 1921,) 9, 1920. Office of eUay se Sees $500, 520 — $23,380 | $475,860 |— $1,280 |— $24,660: Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics.......| 302,590 + 309,400 611,990 |...-.......- + 309, Weather Bureau..........- -| 1,880, 21 + 585,460 | 2,228,150 |— 237,520 |+ oon ‘Bureau of Animal Industry...] 5,783, 231 +1, 138,056 | 6.118,451 |— 802,836 |+ 335, Bureau of Plant Industry: .... 3,379, 638 + 540,460 | 3,606,898 |— 313,200 |+ 227,260: Forest Service........- -| 5,966, 869 +1, 096,558 | 6,557,895 |— 505,532 |+ 591,026 Bureau of Chemistry - 1,391, 571 + 110,840 | 1,424,511 |— 77,900 |+ 2, 940 Bureau of Soils...--.. 491, 235 5 |+- 129,810 620, 950 |+ 128, 860: Bureau of Entomology-.. 1,371, 360 + 792,580 | 1,219,260 |— 944,680 |— 152,100. Bureau of Biological Survey... 42,170 + 540, 978, — 304,650 + 235,835 Division of Accounts and Dis- Siac a avai Lp 6: 000 i ores [irini se miniaie eieie ® 7 240, 140 + 138,890 362, 480 16,550 |-+ 122,340 371, 102 + 793,613 967, 782 |— ,196,933 |+ 596,620 Library 50, 160 + 10,920 61,080 |.--.-..--.-. 10, Miscellaneous expenses, De- partment of Agriculture. .... 175,500 — 22,500 141,000 |— + 12,000 34,500 Rent in the District of Colum- : esac emrenmnrn anion 100, + 0, 000 150,000 |........-.-. + 50, 000° States Relations Service... 4,905,820 + 67,680 | 4,968,540 |— 4,960 |+ 62, 720 Bureau of Public Roads.. 594,320 + , 100 748,120 |— 26,200 |+ 153,800 Bureau of Markets..........-. 2, 811,365 + 642,480 | 3,023,395 |— 430,450 |4+ 212,030 Insecticide and Fungicide WAL since cinieinieietaiasnicioicrcmmmernte! 123,940 + 17,970 141,910 }............ + 17,970 Federal Horticultural Board. . 129, 000 + 117,500 236,500 |— 10,000 |+ 107,500 Total, Department of Agriculture, for rou- tineand ordinary work | 31,355,361 +7, 222, 822 | 34,692, 542 |—3, 885,641 |-+ 3,337, 18% MISCELLANEOUS APPROPRIA- TIONS. Demonstrations on reclama- tion projects. ... 3 48,600 — 41,600 47,000 |............ — 1,600 Fighting and prev npiatsigetiyey ribie eieis |eyainyaiaisiSva'aiuitie +1, 000,000 | 1,000,000 |............/+ 1,000,000 Cooperative fire protection of forested watersheds of nav- igable streams..............4 100, 000 + 400,000 200,000 |— 300,000 |-+ 100,000 Experiments and demonstra- enaishe tions in live-stock produc- tion in the-cane-sugar and cotton districts of the United | EE wn wnt mor icinrninis igieratocate 60,000} 60,000 |......... oe 60, 000 |..... i ed tse nine Experiments in dairying and live-stock production in Semiarid and irrigated dis- | tricts of the western United TACOS .2.:cscrarorarars rare crayarerciscreyatars 40,000; 40,000 /............ 40/000) | cv sicsenterseiuee| ascrermerieiacie c Eradication of the foot-and- mouth and other contagious diseases of animals.......... , 000, cparcnoebenbieat 7000; 000 cceaesccccs eesureeconen Eradication of pink bollworm.. 595, 800 — 22,500 388,560 |— 184,740 |— 207,240 Acquisition of lands under the |. Weets 1aW oc cctvwinveneiands 600, 000 OOO 000 ccc cnen pu al ara ae, — 600,000 Plant-dust explosions and fires.|...........- + 155,000 100,000 |— + 55,000 | 100,000 Agricultural exhibits......... is 100, 000 = 100,000 | ccweenncncil ciccewcennc + 100,000 Grand total, Depart- : ment of Agriculture... .| 33,899, 761 +8, 053,722 | 37,528,102 |—4, 425,381 |+1 3,628,341 AGRICULTURE APPRUPRIATION BILL. 9 ‘ Statement showing proposed changes in the statutory. rolls of the Department of Agriculture ' for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1921. Number. Increase. | Total. New placeS......00c-ccccenanennnnnes ene napensesesasecesnenesccscenenesces Ties in salary of 1 laboratory aid, Division of Publications, to correct typographicl error in agricultural appropriation act for 1920............. Places dropped 1.0... 20... cec ee cen cece seer e enc en eect ence eeeceennccnnes wee Actual increase... 1.2... 22-22... eeeeenee eee ee ee cumbosutecuueserenans Transfers from lump funds, with corresponding reduction...............-. Apparent ANOTOASO sd. -'o- so sents eeveaendeiesetueseectoess pine cineiSieesis $113,390 |.......... ABD || ere aces +8113, 840 aaaseenee — 27,660’ -86, 180 eseeuieecte: 450, 780° mae’ 536, 980 Not including 1,402 places, aggregating $1,673,540, transferred to a special lump-fund item under the Forest Service for the employment of forest supervisors, deputy supervisors, rangers, and guards. Note.—On Oct. 31, 1919, there was a total of 21,364 employees in the Department of Agriculture, of whom 5,490 were carried on statutory rolls and 15,871 on lump funds. Statement showing proposed changes in lump fund appropriations of the Department of Agriculture for the fiscal year ending June 80, 1921. Items. Increase. Decrease. Actual. Appar- ent. Actual. Office ofthe Secretary: (108) Extralaborand emergency employments. . Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics (31) Farn nanagementinvestigations......... Weather Bureau: (53) Expensesin Washington...... 54) Printing office........... 55) Expenses outside of Washingto: 56) Traveling expemses....-...--.--- is (57) Establishmentand maintenance of aerological stations aa Forest fire warning Service (NeW)........------+---e-ee 59) Marine meteorological work (neW)-.....--.---+---e-00- Bureau of Animal Industry: (60) epee and quarantine ..-.......--2-ceeeeeeeseeeee (61) Tuberculosisin vestigation and eradication .. 62) Tick eradication..............-..- Raters areata 63) Dairy investigations...........-.....-.-- (64) Animal husbandry investigations....... (65) Animal liseaseinvestigations............. ten Hog cholerainvestigation and eradication. . 67) Dourinein vestigation and eradication ..... (69) Meat insnection . .. 2.2.22... 2.2 sence eee eee eee eeeenee Bureau of Plant Industry: a Investizationsin plant pathology......---.------.--+-- 80) Fruit diseaseinvestizations...............++- 81) Citrus canker eradication .........-..---s+0++ 82) Investigations in forest pathology......... 83) Eradication of white pine blister rust..........-------- 84) Investigation ofcotton, truck, and forage crop diseases. . 85) Crop physiology and breeding investigations.......... 86) Soi] bacteriology and plant nutrition investigations. -. 87) Soil fertility investigations .........-.-.--.-0++-cer-0 89) Drug plant, poisonous plant, physiological, and fer- mentation investigations 92) Seed testing............----2-6-- 93) Cerealinvestigations.........-----------;-++ pala acs cine 96) Alkeliand drought resistant plant investigations 99) Dry land agriculture investigations. .........-------+++ 100) Western irrigation agriculture investigations.......... 102) Pomologicalinvestigations ..........02--2ceeseeeeneee 104) Horticultural] investigations ..........-.0-eeeeeeeeeees 105) Nursery investigations (NeW)..........-2--eseeeeeeeee 106) Arlington farm..........2--------0ee eee eeeeee os 107) Foreign seed and plantintroduction...........-....-- fit) Purchase and distribution of new and rare seeds...... 110) Forage crop investigations............-0..2seeeeeeeees $297,190 Note.—Numbers in parentheses refer to items in the committee print of the estimates. 10 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Statement showing proposed changes in lump fund appropriations of the Department of Agriculture for the fiscol year ending June 30, 1921—Continued. Increase. Decrease. Items. Appar-.| actual. | APP&t | Actual. Bureau of Plant Industry—Continued. Pe i General administrative expenses... ...-.--+--+---6+-- 112) Purchaseand distribu ‘ion of valuable seeds. ....--.-- ; Forest Service:! : (239) National forests and general administration obese seine 342} Fighting and preventing forest fires....... 242) Insect control......-..-..- an Supplies and equipment......-. 244) Forest products investigations...... (245) Range investigations.............-------++ ass Silvicultural investigations........-..---+-+-- (248) Reconnaissance of forest resources... (249) Miscellaneous forest investigations. . : (250) Improvement of national forests........-------------- Bureau of Chemistry: (66) Collaboration with other departments...........------ (68) Poultry and egg investigations........--.------+--+--++ re Biological investigations of food and drug products. ... 72) Color investigations..............-..22020e-eee eee ee eee rn Enforcement of the food and drugs act........----- (77) Dehydration inves‘ igations a eiaiesele ave acarewssiciaideaetsiens (79) Leather and tanning investigations (new) Bureau of Soils: (33) Soil physical investigations. .........--.2---2--eeeee eee 3) Investigation of fer tilizer resources. 35) Soil survey inves‘igations............--------+- 37) Potash investigations, stclais ‘sictaise evened wists tr laiwiaieiwinialaclecieieeion Bureau of Entomology ee Deciduous fruit insect investigations-....... P Saraislciciaisieiacs 3s) Cereal and forage insect investigations . (34) Control of European corn borer........-- . Bb Southern field crop insect investigations. = Forest insect investigations 37) Truck crop and stored product insect investigations. 38) Bee culture investigations..............-2...2---2060- '39) Tropical and subiropical fruit insect investigations. (48) General administrative expemses...............---- 44) Preven ings nea of AMES vo joiasn in 6 Se eicinsewietssa siaistersionaen Bureau of Biolovical (29) Main enance of ofa miata and bird reservations.........[° 5,135 BASS: | cieisecneicigie| a /adicrcisieeise (31) Economic inves.igations (food habits of birds one : mammals, etc.) 110,560 | 118,960 nt Enforcement of the migratory bird treaty act... ; 107,500 General administrative expenses = 4,240 4,240 Division of Publications: (78) Labor-saving machinery........-....---0see--eee seers - 1,000 1,000 (79 peuguety and materials. 2 1,500 1,500 (80) Office furniture and fixtures. 280 2 (82) Communicaiion and transpor 150 150 et Miscellaneous expenses......-......-+ 350 350 - (85) Agricultural exhibits 2.............-.---- 50, 000 50,000 |. Bureau of Crop Estimates: Lib (20) “Administrative expenses and field investigations. ..... 550,000 | 550,000 |..........).--.2.-..- ibrary: (16) General expenses.......-. 22-22 ee eee eee ee ener eee eee Miscellaneous expenses. ...........--- Rent in the District of Columbia States Relations Service: > (36) BY eee of the Hatch, Adams, and Smith-Lever ain Extension work in northern and wes‘ern States. 38) Extension work in southern States.......,..... 4) Farmers’ institutes and agricultural schoc s. Insular experiment stations..........+.. rt Home economics investigations. . General administrative expenses........--..------.---- Bureau of Public Roads: = Road Tena Sorient investigations.........--.---------- Road building and maintenance investigations . distal a wieiicrtesierd Road material investigations. ............... --| 30,000 2 Farm irrigation investigations. ---| 20,000 58) Farm drainage investigations..................--..----- 30, 000 (59) Rural engineering investigations............-.-........ |, 000 1 A new lump fund item of $1,673, 540 is recommended to provide for the em) a ee of forest supervisors deputy SUREUHIOEE, rangers, and guards, transferred from the statutory roll, without increase in the total amoun 3 Transferred from “Miscellaneous” section of the bill. 8 Includes $41,509 to be transferred from the sundry civil act. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 11 Statement showing proposed-changes in lump fund appropriations of the Department of Agriculture for the fiscal year ending June 80, 1921—Continued. Increase, Decrease. Items, ‘ & ppar- ar- : pper’ | Actual. | “PPT | actual. Bureau of Markets: a : 80) Marketing and distribution...........................- 81) Market news service on fruits and vegetables. . (82) Regulation of stockyards.............-.-.----. (83) Market news service on live stock and meats......... . i. (84) Market news service on dairy and poultry products....)..........|....-..--- 10, 820 |...-.....- (85) Market news service on grain, hay, feeds, and seeds... aa 5,4 (86) Food-supply investigations. .............--....---- eS Market inspection of perishable foods. ......- 89) Cotton standardization and cotton testing... (90) Rural cooperation ........-...--.--2-2--.---- 91) State cooperation in marketing work. . 92) Grain-standardization investigations. .... 93) Enforcement of the standard-container act- aa Enforcement of the cotton-futures act...... Pe Enforcement of the grain-standards act. . 97) Administration of the warehouse act..-..............-. . 45, 45, : (100) Completion of work of Domestic Wool Section of War Industries Board...... mai scisuiGled vie we enw eoeem eee | hace a seta lees 35, 000 35,000 Enforcement of the insecti¢ide act (20)....-.........--...0-200- 16,770 17; 970 locosseseeclsomeseees Federal Horticultural Board: (20) Enforcement of the plant-quarantine act..-........--.- 97,750 | 100,000 |........-.|---------- Miscellaneous: - (1) Demonstrations on reclamation projects.............-..|.-...--.-.|---------- Dy GOO sianerrecivic 2) Fighting and re oaee forest fires (new)....-...----.- 21,000,000 [21,000,000 |......-...|-.-----++5 3) Cooperative fire protection of forested watersheds of : SORV UAL ESSEC AIG nin nin nike entrar ila dla 100,000 | 100,000 |...-......|..-. cutie (9) Eradication of pink bollworm i 207, 240 197, 400 Ks Acquisition of lands under the Weeks forestry la’ 600, 000 600, 000 (13) Investigation and prevention of plant-dust explosions and pee Waserisinlentesiitesccsee se] | 1005000"! 100,000: (19) Agricultural exhibit: graleciensieeerney : Total. -[4,927,761 |5, 126, 091 |1, 836,380 | 1,583, 930 INGboees Sent ee eee ne render enmnaunen ne cmammeneeuees 3,091,381 |3, 542,161 |..........]-.-.2----- 1 Inasmuch as $100,000 is made available from appropriations under the wheat-price guaranty act for expenditure during the fiscal year 1920 in carrying out the provisions of amendments to the cotton-futures act. and as only $6,100 has been transferred to the statutory roll of the Bureau of Markets for the fiscal year 1921, this represents an actual decrease of $20,280. 2 Includes $150,000 now provided in the item for fighting and preventing forest fires, under general ex - penses of the Forest Service. : 8 $50,000 transferred from this item to the Division of Publications. CHANGES IN PHRASEOLOGY, BUREAU OF FARM MANAGEMENT AND FARM ECONOMICS. Name of bureau.—The name of the Office of Farm Management has been changed to Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics. (31) Farm management investigations—New language has been substituted for the present lump-fund item for farm-management investigations, as follows: ‘‘To investi- gate the cost of production of farm products; to study economic problems connected with farm financial relations, farm labor, land utilization, ownership and tenancy, and rural-life conditions; to compile and publish the Atlas of American Agriculture; and to encourage improved farm-organization and farm-management methods.” WEATHER BUREAU, (57) Establishment and maintenance of aerological stations.—After the word ‘‘phe- nomena” has been inserted ‘‘and the issuing of weather forecasts, advices, and warn- ings,”’ after ‘‘in aid of,’’ the words ‘‘ military, naval, and civil’’; after ‘‘aeronautics,”’ the words ‘‘and in the development of navigation of the air’’; and before ‘‘other” the word ‘‘all.”’ (60) Sale of Mount Weather.—A new paragraph has been added authorizing the sale of Mount Weather, including land, together with buildings and other improvements, the net proceeds of the sale, after deducting the expenses incidental thereto, to be turned into the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts. 12 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY. (61) Tuberculosis investigation and eradication.—After the amount the words “of which $500,000 shall be set aside for administrative and operating expenses and $1,000,000 for the payment ofindemnities” have been omitted; also the words ‘within the limitations above provided” in the first proviso. (69) Meat inspection.—The words ‘‘including the purchase of tags, labels, stamps, and certificates printed in course of manufacture” have been inserted before the amount; and the balance of the paragraph, relative to the inspettion of equine meat has been eliminated. The provision auhcrizing payment for overtime work at meat- inspection establishments has also been omitted. ~ i BUREAU OF PLANT INDUSTRY. (93) Cereal investigations.—The words ‘‘leaf rust” have been inserted after the words “black rust.’ ; . 4 (99) Dry land agriculture investigations—After the amount the following proviso has been added: ‘Provided, That the limitations in this act as to the cost of farm buildings shall not apply to this paragraph.”’ (107) Foreign seed and plant introduction.—The following language, after the amount, has been omitted: ‘‘Of which sum the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to ex- end $50,000, or so much thereof as may be necessary, for the purchase of not to exceed ifty acres of suitable land near the city of Washington, District of Columbia, and the erection thereon of all necessary buildings and equipment, and for the establishment. of a plant-inspection and detention station: Provided, That not to exceed $10,000 of this sum shall be expended for the purchase of the land.” In place of the language eliminated the following new proviso has been inserted: ‘‘ Provided, That the Secre- tary of Agriculture is hereafter authorized to acquire by gift, devise, or by purchase for a sum not to exceed $1 for each site, the sites now occupied by field stations at Chico, California, consisting of about eighty acres and used for propagating, testing, and distributing new plant introductions; the site at Bellingham, Washington, consisting of about sixty acres and used as a bulb station and for propagating, testing, and dis- tributing new crop plants, and the sites at Buena Vista, Florida, and Savannah, Georgia, consisting of about twenty-five acres, and about forty-six acres, respectively, and used for propagating, testing, and distributing new crop plants peculiarly adapted to the warmer pais of the United States.’’ (108) Purchase and distribution of new and rare seeds, and forage crop investigations.— This paragraph has been split into two items, the forage crop work being segregated from the new and rare seed item without change in phraseology. FOREST SERVICE, (80) Introductory paragraph, general expenses.—The proviso relative to the erection of buildings on the national forests has been amended so as to raise the limitation on the cost of buildings from $800 to $1,500, and the words ‘‘or improved” have been inserted after the word ‘‘erected.”’ (81) Employment of forest supervisors, rangers, and guards.—-A new lump-fund item has been inserted oe for the salaries of forest supervisors, deputy supervisors, rangers, and guards, heretofore carried on the statutory roll, without increase in the total appropriation. (82) Dee. maintenance, improvement, and protection of national forests.—The words “of other employees” have been inserted after ‘‘salaries.’’ (111) Cwur @ Alene National Forest.—The following proviso has been added after the amount: ‘‘Provided, That the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to use, not to exceed $500 of the funds herein appa for the Cceur d’ Alene National Forest, for the marking of the graves in Wallace, Idaho, of thirteen men who lost their lives while fighting forest fires in the employ of the Forest Service on the Cwur d’ Alene National Forest on August 10, 1910, including concrete curbing for the graves, and seeding, co , and improving the plat.” (118) Custer National Forest.—Before the amount the words ‘“‘and South Dakota” have been added. : (159) Minam National Forest.—This item has been omitted, as it is proposed to consolidate this forest with the Whitman National Forest. (165) Monterey National Forest.—This item has been omitted, as the Monterey National Forest has been consolidated with the Santa Barbara National Forest. (198) Sieux National Forest.—It is proposed to consolidate this forest with the Custer Naiional Forest. The item has therefore been omitted. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 13 (240) Land classification and entry surveys.—After the words ‘authorized by law” the fcllowing new language has been added: ‘‘And for the survey thereof by metes and bounds or otherwise by employees of the Forest Service under the direction of the Commissioner of the General Land Office.” (241) Fighting and preventing forest fires.—This item has been omitted and pro- vision made for the work under the ‘‘ Miscellaneous” section of the bill. (246) National forest planting.—The proviso authorizing the purchase of land used as a forest nursery site for the Michigan National Forest has been omitted. (250) Improvement of the national forests—Aiter the first proviso the following language has been inserted: ‘‘ Provided further, That the Secretary of Agriculture is aalthorized to use not to exceed $5,000 of the funds herein appropriated for the pur- chase of lands needed for ranger stations.’” In the next proviso the word “hereafter” has been inserted after ‘‘that”; the words ‘‘any funds appropriated for the Forest Service” substituted for ‘‘the money herein appropriated”; the words “in and” and ‘‘this appropriation” eliminated, and the word “law” added. In the third proviso the word ‘‘hereafter” has been inserted to follow ‘‘that”; the words “this appropriation” eliminated; and the words ‘“‘any funds appropriated for the Forest Service” substituted for ‘‘this appropriation.”’ BUREAU OF ENTOMOLOGY. (35) Southern field crop insect investigations.—After the amount have been added the words “‘of which sum $25,000 shall be immediately available.’’ BUREAU OF BIOLOGICAL SURVEY. (30). Sullys Hill National Park game preserve.—This paragraph has been amended by inserting th words ‘‘and maintenance” after “improvement” and changing the word “preserves” to ‘‘preserve.’”’ : DIVISION OF PUBLICATIONS. ¢7T) Introductory percgraph, general expenses.—Before the words ‘‘as follows,” at the ont of the paragraph, the words and information and exhibit work” have been inserted. - ? : (81) Photographic equipment and materials.—In the first proviso, after ‘‘that,’? the word “hereafter” has been inserted. (85) Agricultural exhibits—This paragraph has been amended by eliminating the clause relating to the National Dairy Show, and the clause limiting the amount that may be expended for any one fair to $5,000, and by adding at the end of the item the words ‘‘including rent and employment of persons and means in the District of Colum- bia and elsewhere.”’ (87) Details to and from the Division of Publications.—The following new paragraph has been inserted: ‘‘Hereafter employees of the Division of Publications may be detailed by the Secretary of Agriculture for publication, information, and related work in any of the bureaus or offices of the department, for duty in or out of the District of Columbia, and employees of the bureaus and offices may also be detailed to the Division of Publications for duty in or out of the District of Columbia, traveling expenses of employees so, detailed, when necessary, to be paid from the appropriation of the bureau or office in connection with which such travel is performed.” BUREAU OF CROP ESTIMATES, (17-20) Administrative expenses and field investigations.—The two items ‘‘Adminis- trative expenses” and ‘‘Field investigations” have been consolidated and the hraseology of the item amended to read as follows: ‘‘For all necessary expenses, including salaries and the employment of labor in the city of Washington and else- where, freight and express charges, official traveling expenses, office fixtures, supplies, calculating machines, and other equipment for collecting, compiling, abstracting, analyzing, summarizing, interpreting, and publishing data relating to agriculture, including field printing of special forms or schedules, and State crop reports; for making crop and live-stock estimates, including acreage, yield, number, and value, losses by diseases, insect pests, and adverse weather conditions, requirements, and consumption of seeds, fertilizers, insecticides, and fungicides, and marketable sur- pluses on farms, by counties, recognized producing districts, and States, independ- ently or in cooperation with other Federal and State departments and agencies.”’ 14 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. MISCELLANEOUS EXPENSES. Miscellaneous expenses, Department of Agricultwre.—The following clause at the en4 of the item has been omitted: ‘‘Of which $33,000 shall be for necessary repairs to the. central heating plant of the department.” STATES RELATIONS SERVICE. (41) Insular experiment stations.—The immediately available clauses in the Alaska and Guam subitems have been omitted, as has also the proviso granting leave ot absence privileges to employees assigned to permanent duty in the Virgin Islands and allowing accumulative leave to employees of the insular experiment stations. BUREAU OF PUBLIC ROADS. (55) Road material investigations.—At the end of the paragraph new language has been added as follows: ‘‘For conducting laboratory and field experiments, and for studies and investigations in road design, independently or in cooperation with State highway departments and other agencies.”’ ; : (59) Rural engineering investigations.—A clause has been inserted at the end of this paragraph making $50,000 immediately available. BUREAU OF MARKETS. (95) Enforcement of the cotton futures act.—After ‘‘cotton futures act” the words “as amended March 4, 1919” have been inserted. : (96) Enforcement of the grain standards act.—The following proviso has been added at the end of the paragraph: ‘Provided, That section 6 of the said act is hereby’ amended, effective on and after the passage of this act, by striking out of the first sentence the words ‘sold, offered for sale, or consigned for sale, or which has been shipped, or delivered for shipment in interstate or foreign commerce shall have been inspected,’ and substituting therefor the words ‘shall have been inspected by an inspector licensed under the act,’ and by striking out of the last sentence the words ‘made after the parties in interest have had opportunity to be heard.’” _~ ; (98) Administration of the warehouse act.—The paragraph amending sections 6 and 18 of the warehouse act has been omitted. : ‘ (99) Authority to administer oaths, examine witnesses, etc.—The paragraph empowering - the Secretary of Agriculture to administer oaths, examine witnesses, and call for the production of books and Pp in connection with the performance of the duties. required of the Bureau of Markets in the administration or enforcement of the pro- visions of the acts relating to the Department of Agriculture, has been eliminated. FEDERAL HORTICULTURAL BOARD. (22) Plant quarantine in the District of Columbia.—A new paragraph has been inserted, amending the plant quarantine act of August 20, 1912, so as to authorize - the Secretary of Agriculture to regulate the movement of plants and plant products, including nursery stock, from and into the District of Columbia, and to control injuri- ous plant diseases and insect pests within the District of Columbia. MISCELLANEOUS. (8) Eradication of foot-and-mouth disease and other contagious diseases of animals.— “Fiscal year 1919” has been changed to ‘‘fiscal year 1920” and “1920” to “1921.” (10) Loan or exchange of American bison.—This paragraph has been omitted. . s ta} Mileage rates for motor vehicles.—The year ‘‘1920” has been changed to “1921.” 14) Actual traveling expenses.—The following new paragraph has been inserted: , “Officers and employees of the Department of Agriculture during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1921, while traveling on official business away from their designated posts of duty may be allowed not to exceed $7 per day for subsistence, but in no case shall they be reimbursed any sum in excess of expenses actually incurred by them.” Ap) Per diem traveling expenses.—The following. new paragraph has been inserted: ‘The Secretary of Agriculture, during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1921, is author- ized to prescribe a diem rates of allowance not exceeding $6 in lieu of subsistence . to officers or employees of the Department of Agriculture engaged in field work or: traveling on official business outside of the District of Columbia away from their’ designated posts of duty.” AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 15 (16) Leave of absence for field employees.—The following new paragraph has been inserted: ‘‘The employees of the Department of Agriculture, outside of the District of Columbia, may hereafter, in the discretion of the Secretary of Agriculture, be ted leave of absence not to exceed thirty days in any one year, which leave may, in exceptional and meritorious cases, where such employee is ill, be extended in the discretion of the Secretary of Agriculture not to exceed thirty days additional in any one year.” (17) Accumulative leave of absence for employees in Alaska, Hawaii, Porto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands.—The following new paragraph has been inserted: “Hereafter if any employee of the Department of Agriculture assigned ‘to poner duty in Alaska, Hawaii, Porto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands shall elect to ostpone taking any or all of the annual leave to which he may be entitled, he may, in the discretion of the Secretary of Agriculture, subject to the interests of the public service, be allowed to take at one time in any calendar year unused annual leave which may have accumulated within not to exceed four calendar years immediately receding and be paid at the rates prevailing during the year such leave has accumu- lated.”” (18) Cooperation.—This paragraph, restricting the use of funds contributed by Seen outside of the Federal Government for use in cooperative work, has been omitted. (22) Wrapped meats.—This pane p rs making the word” ‘‘package,’’ where it occurs in the act amending section 8 of the food and drugs act, applicable to wrapped meats, has been omitted. (23) Leave of homesteaders.—This paraeranes excusing homesteaders from residence on their lands because of serious drought conditions, so as to enable them to seek employment elsewhere in order to obtain the necessaries of life, has been omitted. (24) Protection of employees of the Forest Service and the Bureau of Biological Survey engaged in the enforcement of law.—The following new Rateges h has been inserted: “That section 62 of the act of March 4, 1909 (35 Stat. L., 100), entitled ‘An act to * codify, revise, and amend the penal laws of the United States,’ is hereby amended by inserting after the name ‘Bureau of Animal Industry’ where it occurs in that section the following: ‘of the Forest Service, or of the Bureau of Biological Survey,’ so that the section will hereafter read as follows: “Sec. 62. Whoever shall forcibly assault, resist, oppor, prevent, impede, or inter- fere with any officer or Baployee of the Bureau of Animal Industry, of the Forest Service, or of the Bureau of Biological Survey, of the Department of Agriculture, in the execution of his duties, or on account of the execution of his duties, shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and whoever shall use any deadly or dangerous weapon in resisting any officer or employee of the Bureau of Animal Industry, of the Forest Service, or of the Bureau of Biological Survey, of the Department of Agriculture, in the execution of his duties, with intent to commit a bodily injury upon him or to deter or prevent him from discharging his duties, or on account of the performance of his duties, shall be fined not more than $1,000, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.” CoMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, House or REpresEnTATIvE, Friday, December 19, 1919. AFTER RECESS. The committee met, pursuant to the taking of a recess, at 2 o’clock p- m., Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. Present: Members of the committee. OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY. The Cuarrman. The committee will come to order. We will pro- ceed with the hearings. We will next consider the estimates for the office of the Secretary, page 9. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Reese, chief clerk of the department, is here, Mr. Chairman, and will explain those items. STATEMENT OF MR. R. M. REESE, CHIEF CLERK, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. The Cuairman. Do you desire to make a general statement or do you desire to take up the estimates item by item? Mr. Rezssz. I will be very brief, Mr. Chairman. The statutory roll of the office of the Secretary provides for no increases at all. The items in brackets—items 11, 13, and so on—indicate transfers to the statutory roll of the Division of Publications, in accordance with a plan to consolidate all of the publication, informational, and exhibit activities of the department. Mr. Harrison. This is a part of a plan to consolidate all the publi- cation work into one division. The Cuairman. Under one head ? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. You propose to take it from under the office of the Secretary ? Mr. Harrison. Yes; we propose to take the publication units now in the office of the Secretary and place them under the Division of Publications. The Cuarrman. It is changing back? Mr. Harrison. No. The office of information and the office of exhibits, which heretofore have been directly under the Secretary’s office, will be transferred to the Division of Publications. The work 1s now supervised by the chief of that division, and the purpose of 164315—20——2 17 18 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. ae ceeness is to effect the necessary adjustments in the appropria- tion bill. The Cuairman. As I understand it, you are putting the publica- tion work all under one head ? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And taking it from under the Secretary’s office? - Mr. Harrison. Of course, the work of the Division of Publications will continue to be done under the direction of the Secretary. Mr. Rzzsz, The other changes noted are unimportant. Item No. 34 is a change in the designation of one clerk in lieu of one auditor at the same salary; that is proposed simply to give greater flexibility in filling the place in case there should be a vacancy. The Cuairman. In order to give flexibility in filling the place. Is this in the Division of Publications? Mr. Rezsr. No. The Cuarrman. Item No. 18 is a transfer of one assistant at $2,000 to the statutory roll of the Division of Publications? Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And No. 11? Mr. McLaueuuin of Michigan. No. 11 is one assistant in charge of information, $3,000, to be transferred to the statutory roll, Divi- sion of Publications. Was that the salary paid in the other division? Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutuw of Michigan. Was he on a statutory roll in the other division ? ; : . Mr. Reese. As you will see, he is now on the statutory roll of the office of the Secretary. We are proposing his transfer from that roll to the statutory roll of the Division of Publications. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. It is transferring him from one statutory roll to another? Mr. Reesz. Yes. All these cases are transferred from one statu- tory rol] to another at the same salary. The Cuarrman. My understanding is that a year or so ago these places were transferred from the Division of Publications to the Sec- retary’s office. Are you now transferring them back? Mr. Harrison. Two or three years ago several editors on the rolls of the Division of Publications who were engaged in reading manu- script under the direction of the assistant in charge of manuscripts in the Secretary’s office, and who had been doing that work for some time, were transferred in the bill to the latter office. Since that time we have worked out a plan for the consolidation of all the informa- tional, exhibit, and motion-picture activities in the Division of Pub- lications, and now we wish to transfer to that division these editors, together with all other employees in the Secretary’s office engaged on informational, exhibit, or motion-picture work. , The Cuarrman. On what basis is the recommendation made? Mr. Harrison. The general plan, as I have said, is to bring to- gether all our publication activities under the supervision of the Chief of the Division of Publications in order to promote efficiency and facilitate the handling of the work. The informational work is merely one phase of our publication activities. The same is true with regard to exhibits and motion pictures. The Cuairman. That was true in the past just as well as it is now; why are you making the changes now? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 19 Mr. Harrison. It is a better administrative arrangement, and is a great improvement over the present plan. The Cuarrman. After trying the other? Mr. Harrison. We are convinced that the arrangement we are proposing is the best. As I say, the Chief of the Division of Publi- cations, by administrative order, has been charged with the supervi- sion of all the publication work, even though a part of it is in the Secretary’s office; and the purpose of the changes suggested here is merely to effect the necessary adjustments in the appropriation bill. The Cuarrman. What I wish to have explained is why you are switching them back and forth. Mr. Harrtson. I explained a few moments ago that a few editors- were transferred to the Secretary’s office because they were detailed to and actually working in the Secretary’s office, under the immedi- ate direction of the assistant in charge of manuscripts in the Secre- tary’s office. This assistant has since been made Chief of the Divi- sion of Publications, and we are now bringing all the publication work together under his supervision. The changes proposed here, including the transfer of the editors, are necessary in order to effect the consolidation. The places to be transferred to the Division of Publications are listed on page 14, and the Secretary’s roll has been correspondingly reduced in each case. They are also shown within the heavy parentheses as you go through the statutory roll. The Cuatrman. The trouble in that is that that will not appear in the record. My idea is to have it all in the record. Why do you change one auditor to a clerk? : Mr. Reese. That is to give greater flexibility in filling the place when it happens to become vacant. As a matter of fact, the auditor actually does some clerical work. The Cuarrman. You have auditors in every division ? Mr. Reese. We have an auditor in each division. That is required by law. That is required by the Dockery Act of 1912. : The CHarrm4n. The auditor does the auditing work? Mr. Harrison. The auditing work is done in the different branches of the department. ; The Caarrman. What is done under the Division of Accounts? Mr. Harrison. The Division of Accounts is the disbursing office of the department. The Cuarrman. It has nothing to do with the auditing? Mr. Harrtson. It does no auditing. However, it examines the accounts submitted to it for payment in order to determine whether they represent a legal charge against the appropriation and whether the extensions and totals are correct. : The Cuarrman. That is, it determines the legality ? Mr. Harrison. The Division of Accounts, before it will pay an account, must necessarily determine whether or not, in its opinion, the account comes within the scope of the appropriation. The func- tion of the auditor is to ascertain whether it complies with the admin- istrative and fiscal regulations of the department and the accounting rules of the Treasury. The Dockery Act of 1912 requires that the administrative examination of accounts shall be made by the various bureaus. Formerly we had a centralized accounting system, but this was changed after the passage of that act. 20 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. How about the checking inthe bureau? Mr. Harrison. I do not quite understand what you have in mind. The Cuarrman. Does anybody check up the bureaus and pass on the expenditures and salaries? : Mr. Harrison. The matter of salaries is an entirely different mat- ter. Before any appointment can be made in the department the chief of the bureau must make an appropriate recommendation to to Secretary’s office and the recommendation must be considered and approved by the Secretary before the man is placed on the rolls of the department. ae) , The Cuairman. How about the other expenditures? Mr. Harrison. The other expenditures are examined by the auditors in the various bureaus. The Cuairmay. Is there one for every bureau? Mr. Harrison. There is one for each bureau, and he has such assist- ants as may be necessary to handle thd accounts of that bureau. The Cuatrman. But what does he determine? Mr. Harrison. The financial clerk of each bureau checks the ex- penditures of his bureau and determines whether they are adminis- tratively correct, whether they are in accordance with the comptroller’s decisions and the fiscal regulations of the department and whether they comply with the instructions of the chief of the bureau. “Then the chief of the bureau examines the accounts to ascertain whether they are reasonable and proper, and if he approves them they are forwarded to the Division of Accounts and Disbursements for pay- ment. After payment has been made, and- sometimes before, the accounts are transmitted to the Auditor for the State and Other De- partments for examination, = = 5 The Cuarrman. Who is held responsible? . Mr. Harrison. The disbursing ‘clerk of the department and the chief of the bureau. c. The Cuairman. Who is responsible as to whether or not the ex- penditures are correctly made# = Peas Mr. Harrison. The chief of the bureau, in the first instance. The Chief of the Division of Accounts, of course, is the bonded disburs- ing officer of the department, and he is liable under his bond for any illegal expenditures. The secretary’s office also, through its office of inspection, inspects and examines the accounting work of the various bureaus from time to time. - The Cuairman. Ts there any further checking up? Mr. Harerson. Not in the sense that we make a complete audit of expenditures at the close of the fiscal year. The chief of the bureau c administratively responsible under the terms of the Dockery Act of 1912. Pee hs . ; The Cuarrman. The responsibility is there, but who ascertains whether it is properly done ‘or not? aes Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I suppose the chief of the bureau is the man who is charged with carrying on the work properly in his bureau, and he makes recommendations to the secretary, and esti- mates are made as to the amount of money that will be necessary to carry on that kind of work and the men to be employed. The au- ditors you speak of simply determine whether or not the money is spent in accordance with the law, and the chief of the bureau keeps AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 21 track of the kind of work that is done, sees whether it is properly done, and whether there is sufficient funds to justify the expendi- tures. . Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That kind of a system is no good, or at least I hope no one will think it is. _, Mr. McLaveutun of Michigan. It depends on the man at the head of the bureau, whether he can be in touch with the work that is going on and is able to say whether the money is being expended wisely or not. The Cuarrman. Suppose a chief of a bureau should decide to give a man a trip around the world and pay all of his expenses, which would cost, let us say, $10,000. There is no one to question whether or not that money is rightly expended—no one except the chief of the bureau? Is that suificient? Mr. Harrison. I did not intend to create any such impression. The Cuarrman. What I am trying to get at is what kind of check- ing up is done? Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, we have a volume of fiscal regu- lations which indicate and limit the authority of the chiefs of the bureaus in connection with expenditures. The auditors, of course, must see that these regulations are complied with and that the neces- sary authority was given before the expenditures were incurred. The Carman. .That is what I am trying to get at. Mr. Harrison. Take the special case you mention. The chief of the bureau can not authorize, nor is there anyone in the department who can authorize, a trip around the world without securing the approval, in advance, of the secretary. The Carman. Limitations are one thing and checking is an- other—two entirely different things. Mr. Harrison. As I said, Mr. Chairman, no one in the Depart- ment of Agriculture, except the secretary or the acting secretary, can authorize a foreign trip. : The Cuarrman. I am not discussing the limitations when I am talking about checking. What assurance have we that this money is being properly expended? That is what I am trying to get at. Mr. Reeser. There are letters of authorization that are sent at the beginning of the fiscal year to the chiefs of the bureaus which direct them to conduct the work of their bureaus under the law and the fiscal regulations. After that. has been done, all the expenditures of the department are reported to Congress in detail. : The Cuairman. That is getting away from the question again. What I want to know is whether or not there is anyone who examines these expenditures with the view of determining how the money has been expended, and whether anyone knows whether it has been prop- erly expended or not? That is what I am trying to get at. ; Mr. Harrison. I think we have an adequate number of checks in the Department of Agriculture to prevent unwise expenditures. Mr. McLavcuttn of Michigan. As I see it, clerks and auditors are assigned to determine whether or not the money has been expended in any particular case in accordance with law. That isn’t a difficult matter—that sort of checking. I suppose the head of the bureau, when he has to make disbursements of money, determines whether 22 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. or not the kind of work shall be done. If they have the money, they have a trained force for that work, and he employs men to do or directs men to do it. It is left to his judgment to decide whether it is properly done, whether the results he hoped to obtain have been accomplished, and whether, in his judgment, it ought to be continued, and if there is any change in plans he directs the change, and so on. The Cuarrman. What I have reference to, to be perfectly candid, is this: If he wants to send a man out in a certain State on the pay roll to do political work, drawing a salary from the Public Treasury, who passes upon whether that is a proper expenditure of the money? Mr. Harrison. I may say that a chief of bureau can not begin a new project or a new line of work without the prior approval of the Secretary. He can not authorize purchases in excess of $100 except in the case of the Forest Service and the Weather Bureau, where the limitation is $500, without securing the Secretary’s approval in ad- vance. He can not make appointments without first obtaining the Secretary’s consent, except under certain unusual conditions in the field, and even then all the facts must be presented to the Secretary for consideration. We require the fullest sort of formation in each .... case, including the previous history, training, and experience of the person concerned, and determine, on the statement of the chief of the bureau, whether the person’s services are necessary and whether the salary recommended is reasonable in all the circumstances. No travel can be performed, except in certain limited areas, with- out the prior approval of the Secretary. Every day travel letters of authorization come in for the consideration of the Secretary, and he determines whether the travel is justified, whether the expenditure involved is warranted, etc., before he gives his approval. No one can attend meetings, except local gatherings in the field in line with work of the department, without submitting the matter to the Sec- retary. No foreign travel can be made without the previous approval of the Secretary. There are numerous other checks on expenditures prescribed by the administrative, property, and fiscal regulations of the department.. The limitations in these regulations prevent chiefs of bureaus and other officers of the department from incurring any expenditures of consequence without securing the advance approval of the Secretary. They operate as very eisctive checks and the checks are made before it is too late, before the obligation has been incurred. - The Cuairman. Too late? You could put a man in jail for that sort of acrime. That would be the remedy—to put him in jail. Mr. Harrison. That would be true in the case of illegal expendi- tures The Cuarirman (interposing). I am not criticizing any thing in the department. I merely want to find out about the checking. Mr. Lesuer. What system of checking is used? Mr. Harrison (continuing). A man can be put in jail, of course, where he acts illegally ; but an unwise expenditure is a different thing. Perhaps I ought to say in this connection that the Secretary’s office, in addition to the limitations and checks to which I have referred, is constantly calling for statements from the bureaus about expendi- tures of various sorts. These statements are examined. carefully, and if it seems desirable, additional instructions regarding them are issued. We have a committee on finance and business methods, whose AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 23 duty, as its name implies, is to consider various financial and business problems arising throughout the department and to make appropriate recommendations to the Secretary for consideration and action. As I have explained, Mr. Lesher, we have an auditor in each bu- yeau, a financial clerk, who is charged with the duty of checking ex- .penditures to see whether or not they are in accordance with the law, the fiscal regulations, and the comptroller’s decisions. The chief of each bureau is administratively responsible for the expenditures in his bureau, but no expenditures of any consequence can be made without the prior approval of the Secretary, as I have already indi- cated. In this way there is a constant check on the propriety, as well as on the legality, of expenditures in the Department of Agriculture. Going back to the question of auditing, the accounts, after being examined by the financial clerk and having received the administra- tive approval of the chief of the bureau, are transmitted to the Division of Accounts, where they are again examined to see whether the extensions and additions are correct and whether they are legal, because the chief of that division is the bonded disbursing officer of the department, and, if he makes an erroneous payment, he is respon- sible under his bond. The accounts go from the disbursing officer to the Auditor for State and Other Departments, where another exami- nation is made and, in some cases, they may go to the comptroller. If the auditor disagrees with any payment made by the disbursing officer, he will make disallowances in his account, and, unless the disbursing officer can secure reimbursement from the person in the bureau who was responsible for the expenditure, the disbursing officer must make good the amount involved. I shall be glad to submit to the committee for its information a copy of our fiscal regulations in order that it may see just how ex- penditures in the department are checked. The Cuarrman. That is what I have been trying to get at, Mr. Harrison. Mr. Harrison. I am sorry that I did not understand at the begin- ning of the discussion just what you had in mind. I thought you were of the opinion that we ought to have a force of employees as- signed especially to the task of checking up the wisdom of expendi- tures, say, at the close of each fiscal year. The Cuarrman. The expenditures should be checked in some way. Any business concern would require that. It possibly is not being in all the departments of the Government, which may account for the extravagance and waste of expenditures. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, I would like to— The Cuairman (interposing). I am not referring to your depart- ment particularly. , Mr. Harrison. I shall be glad at any time to lay all our records before the committee. So far as I know, we have nothing to con- ceal. Before any charge of waste or extravagance is made, it seems to me that the facts ought to be fully ascertained. Only in this way can the committee determine whether there has, in fact, been any ex- travagance or waste in the Department of Agriculture. The Cuarrman. I am charging the various departments of the Government with waste; I am not referring specifically to your department. : 24 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Harrison. That includes the Department of Agriculture. The Cuarrman. If you will read the speeches on the floor of the House and the evidence produced before Congress, I think you will find all of that to be correct. Mr. Harrison. Of course, we can not accept any responsibility. for what some other department is alleged to have done. I take it that, in any event, the Department of Agriculture can not be charged with waste or extravagance unless the facts justify it. The Cuarrman. I am charging waste to the Government as a whole; I do not think that can be contradicted. All this committee can do is to find out about the one department, the department we are responsible for, what it is doing. You may proceed, Mr. Reese. Mr. Rersr. The next is item 37, on page 10: Eighteen clerks, class 2 (decrease of four by transfer to statutory roll, Division of Publications, and one new place, making a net decrease of three). Four clerks of class 2 are transferred from the statutory roll of the office of the Secretary to the statutory roll of the Division of Publications. All the transfers from the Secretary’s office to the Division of Publications are brought together in the table at the bottom of page 14. Mr. Anprrson. You are centralizing the exhibits and publications and informational work in the Division of Publications? Mr. Reese. Yes, sir; as Mr. Harrison explained at some length, the idea is to bring all the publication and informational work to- gether, so that it will come under the direction of the Chief of the Division of Publications. These transfers involve no increases in salary whatever. Mr. Anprrson. On page 12, item 59, you have— Ten firemen, at $1,080 each (by transfers from lump funds, one from meat inspection, Bureau of Animal Industry; one from black and stripe rust, one from blister rust control, and one from administrative expenses, Bureau of Plant Industry; two from food and drugs act, Bureau of Chemistry; one from deciduous fruit insects, Bureau of Entomology; one from farmers’ cooperative demonstrations in North and West, States Relations Service; one from food supply investigations, and one from cotton futures act, Bureau of Markets). Mr. Reesz. Yes, sir. Mr. Anprrson. I would like to have an explanation in regard to that item. Mr. Resse. I will give the history of that case. In August, 1918, the firemen were receiving a salary of $720. Vacancies occurred which we could not fill at that price at that time. The matter was taken up with the Government Employment Bureau, in order to secure some men to fill the places, but it was impossible to obtain firemen for $720. In fact, it was practically impossible to secure them at any figure. Then a committee of firemen waited on the mechanical superintendent and informed him that they could not exist on a salary of $720 and presented what was in fact an ulti- matum, that they would leave the service the next day if their pay was not increased. The work of the department has to go on; its power plant has to be operated; the department can not get along without it. Rather than see the power plant closed down and its operations practically hamstrung, we advanced these firemen to a _ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 25 wage of $3.35 a day, placing them upon the lump-sum rolls for that purpose. Their compensation was later changed to $1,080 per annum. We now propose in the estimates to transfer these firemen from the lump-sum rolls, on which they are now carried, to the statutory roll of the office of the Secretary, at a salary of $1,080 per annum, and to reduce the lump-sum rolls correspondingly. Mr. Russey. You have been paying these men out of the Jump- sum rolls? Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. Mr. Rueey. And your purpose is to place them on the statutory roll as indicated here? Mr. Ressr. Yes, sir. The expense was apportioned among the various bureaus in order not to deplete too heavily the funds of any one bureau. Mr. Tincuer. The department, then, is really placing these men, who are now on the lump-sum rolls, on the statutory roll? Mr. Rexss. Yes, sir. Mr. Hurcurinson, What is the reason for this? Mr. Rezss. To carry out the established policy of transferring from lump-sum rolls to statutory rolls employees whose work is per- manent and continuous. As already explained, it is proposed to transfer these firemen from the various lump-sum rolls from which they are now paid to the statutory roll of the Secretary’s office, and to reduce the lump-sum rolls accordingly. | Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. These men are all employed in one place? r. Reese. They are employed in the central power plant of the department and in the supplementary plant at the greenhouses. Mr. Rusey. One is paid from one roll, and another man is paid from another roll, one is paid from meat inspection, and another from black and stripe rust, and so on, and that has been done since last August. Mr. Rersz. August, 1918. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. They are all doing the same sort of work? Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. And one man is paid from the funds of one bureau, and nother is paid from the funds of another bureau ? Mr. Reese. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. How long has that practice been going on? Mr. Reeser. Details may be made to and from the office of the Sec- retary under the law, and they have to be made in certain cases. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. I asked how long the practice had. prevailed of having a number of men working together, doing ex- actly the same kind of work, at the same place, one being paid from the funds of one bureau and another paid from the funds of an- other bureau in the department. Mr. Harrison. All these firemen are now detailed to the office of the Secretary and the purpose of these changes is to bring them all together on the statutory roll of the Secretary’s office. 26 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL, Mr. Anprrson. This is a recommendation to strike out 10 firemen a me on lump-sum rolls and to add 10 firemen to the statutory rolls? Mr. Reese. Yes. Mr. Anprrson. You add 10 firemen here to the statutory roll by transfer from a number of lump-sum rolls, evidently to replace fire- men who were previously on the statutory roll. Then, under item No. 61, you drop four firemen at $720 each. Mr. Rerss. That is a decrease in the number of firemen at $720. We have added some more firemen. Mr. Anvrrson. That is what I wanted to know about. Mr. Reese. The task of firing, as you doubtless realize, is a 24- hour-a-day proposition for 365 days in the year. Our firemen were required to be on duty practically all the time. They only had two days off a month. They did not get Sundays and holidays like the rest of us. We thought that was unfair to these men, and we in- creased the number of firemen so as to give each three days off a month. Mr. Anverson. What is the increase? Mr. Reese, Six men. The Cnartrman. How big a power plant have you? Mr. Rexsz. The central power plant with the small supplementary plant at the greenhouses for winter use aggregate 1,700 horsepower. There are eight boilers, and the plant furnishes heat for the depart- ment and generates electricity. Mr. Anprrson. You have one central heating plant? Mr. Resgsr. We have one central heating plant and a small supple- mentary plant at the greenhouses used in winter. Mr. Awverson. You have eight boilers. How many firemen all together ? Mr. Rerse. Fifteen. Mr. AnpErson. How many tons of coal do you use in this plant! Mr. Reesr. Nine thousand tons. The Cuarrman. How many firemen are you transferring from $720 to $1,080? Mr. Rezsss. Ten. The Cuairman. This is a larger item Mr. Anperson. They didn’t have that many. _ The Cuarrman. How many did ‘you transfer from the statutory. roll to these lump-sum rolls? Mr. Rezsz. Eight. The Cuairman. They were on the statutory roll at $720? Mr. Reesr. Yes, sir. § ees Did you transfer them to the Jump-sum rolls at 1,080? Mr. Reess. At, $3.36 a day and later (July, 1919) changed them to $1,080 per annum. The CuHarrman. And you now want to transfer them back to the statutory roll at $1,080? Mr. Reeser. Yes, sir; exactly. es The Cuarrman. They are doing exactly the same work as they di before ? Mr. Reese. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. They have no additional responsibilities? Mr. Reess. No, sir. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 27 The Cuairman. That is absolutely contrary to what we have been told here a number of times. Mr. Rusry. They have set out here, Mr. Chairman, what they have done; they have given us all the details, and have shown why it was necessary to take the course they did. This was an unusual case; there was nothing else for the department to do, and I think we ought to be fair about it. The Cuarrman. But have they the authority? Mr. Rusey. We ought to be fair enough to the department not to say that this is contrary to what we have been told, when they are coming here and telling us what has been done. The Cxairman. They are telling us—— Mr. Rersr. We had to have the firemen or close down the plant. These men came to us and said that they could not live on $720 and were going to quit. The Cuarrman. Mr. Harrison, how do you explain that? Mr. Harrison. You may recall that last year, when I was before the subcommittee, I quoted the language of the law dealing with transfers to lump-sum fund rolls. Originally, the law prohibited absolutely the transfer of anyone from a statutory to a lump-sum roll at an increased salary unless there had been an increase in his duties and responsibilities. It was later amended by Congress so that it now contains this proviso: Provided, That this section shall not apply to mechanics, artisans, their helpers and assistants, laborers, or any other employees whose duties are of similar character and required in carrying on the various manufacturing and constructing operations of the Government. The comptroller has held that this proviso is applicable to laborers and mechanics employed in the Department of Agriculture. There is, therefore, no restriction on the transfer of the “ mechanics, arti- sans, their helpers and assistants, laborers,” etc., and such transfers can legally be made even though the duties of the employees involved are not changed in any way. The statement has been made here repeatedly, in general terms, that the law prohibits transfers from statutory to lump-sum rolls at increased salaries unless there has been a change in the duties and responsibilities of the employees concerned, but, as I have indicated here to-day, and on several other occasions, Congress made a special exception in the cases of “mechanics, artisans, their helpers and assistants, laborers, or any other employees whose duties are of similar character and required in carrying on the various manu- facturing and constructing operations of the Government.” The Cuarrman. The fact of it is that Congress has had nothing to say about the matter in this case. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, this is what happened: These men were transferred— The Cuarrman (interposing). These men were on the statutory roll. They were transferred to the lump-sum rolls at an increased salary. Now you are.transferring them back to the statutory roll from the lump-sum rolls. It appears that Congress has had noth- ai say as to the salaries. r. Rusey. I want to make a statement in that connection. This is a clear case of where the Department of Agriculture had to have men to fire their boilers or shut down the plant, and, in order to 28 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. get the men, they had to pay them more money. Hence they took this course. Now, so far a am concerned, I think they did the right thing. The matter is now before the committee and will be before the committee when we go into executive session to discuss what shall be done, and the committee can pass on it at that time. I think the department has been fair. They have told exactly what they did, and why they did it, and we have got the record before us, and the Congress and this committee have got all the information in a fair, square, open way. Mr. Harrison. I would like to say a word here. The department simply could not close down its plant and it therefore took the course described by Mr. Reese to retain its trained firemen. We could not secure the services of any sort of firemen at the sRUntony rates avail- able, especially in view of the fact that the Potomac Electric Power Co. was paying $5 a day. You can imagine what would happen if our power plant, the artery of the department, had been shut down. The damage would have been incalculable. Mr. Lesuer. What would have happened had you closed down the plant? Would the department have been compelled to lay off its clerks and paid them just the same? Mr. Harrison. It is difficult to indicate the disastrous effect which the closing down of our plant would have had on our work or what it would have cost the Government. , Mr. Resse. The operation of all of the elevators would have been paralyzed without the operation of the power plant, and no artificial light would have been available. a There are four places as firemen at $720 each, which are dropped for the reason that we can not permanently fill the places. Mr. Rupey. These 4 are up here among the 10? The Cuarrman. Why were they dropped ? Mr. Reesz. We can’t fill the places permanently at that salary. The Cuairman. Why not say they are dropped because they are employed at an increased salary ? Mr. Resse. These four places under item 61 are actually dropped. The Cuarrman. You had four more than you needed ? Mr. Rexsz. At that salary. This note explains that we are drop- ping four places because it has been found impossible to fill them at this low salary, $720. At the time these estimates were made up the places were vacant; they have since been temporarily filled by men appointed “ pending certification,” who will be dropped if these estimates are approved. The Cyairman. You are going to employ others at increased salaries? Mr. Ruzsz. Not necessarily. : The Cuarrman. An increase in salary is provided under item 59? Mr. Reese. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. You propose to drop four of them at $720 and to add six at $1,080? ‘ Mr. Reese. The 10 places at $1,080 are added by transfer from the lump-sum rolls. The men are being carried this year on theses lump-sum rolls. Now we are simply asking to have them trans- ferred to the statutory roll at the salaries they are now receiving. The action suggested here does not involve any increases in salaries. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 29 The CuHarrman, You mean to say that you have four men more than you need, whom you are going to drop? Mr. Reesz. We have four places at $720 more than we need. The Cuairman. You are proposing to replace them ? Mr. Reesr. We are dropping those places because we can not get the men permanently at that salary. The Cuarrman. Is it not a fact that you are going to drop those four men at $720 and employ others at $1,080? Mr. Russe. No. The Cuarrman. You are adding six at $1,080. Why do that if you have four at $720 that you do not need ? Mr. Reesz. We wish to drop four places at $720. The Cuarrman. Those vacant places have been filled at $1,080, have: they not. Your note states that four firemen are dropped at $720, and you are employing other firemen at $1,080? Mr. Reese. I will endeavor to clear up this situation as to the firemen. At the present time we have the following firemen: 10 firemen at $1, 080 1 fireman at. ee : 71, 080 1 fireman at____ oe 840 8 firemen at a oe 720 The one temporary fireman at $1,080 will be dropped at the close of the heating season. ; Of the eight places at $720 per annum four will be dropped if the estimates are approved. Meanwhile they are filled by men “ pend- ing certification,” as we can not secure permanent men at this salary. The four men occupying those places will be dropped. At present they are employed as coal passers and for relief at the greenhouse power plant. If the estimates are approved the depart- ment will have in the next fiscal year the following firemen: 10 firemen at $1, 080 1 fireman at. 840 4 firemen at : : ae 720 A total of 15. This number is the minimum at which the power houses can be successfully operated. The Cuarrman. Under item 101 you have one carriage driver at $600, changed to one messenger or laborer, $600. You state in the note that the position of carriage driver is now vacant and that it has not been possible to fill it at the salary provided. The services of an additional laborer, however, are needed, and the change in title suggested will permit the use of the place for that purpose. What does he do? ‘Mr. Reese. We desire to change that place from one carriage driver to, one messenger or laborer at the same salary. “The Cuamman. You are going to dispense with the carriage aae aes ‘Mr. Rersg. Yes, sir. : The Cuarrman. He is not to be employed at all? Mr. Reese. Not in that capacity. The Cuarrman. Will he do the same work? Mr. Rezse. There isn’t anybody in that place. The Cuarrman. What do you propose to do? 1 Temporary. 30 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Reese. Our purpose is to change the designation from car- riage driver to messenger or laborer. The Cuarrman. And pay him how much? Mr. Resse. $600. The Cuarrman. Who takes this place as driver? Mr. Ressz. No one. The Cuarrman. There is to be no driver from now on? Mr. Resse. Not in that place. We have other carriage drivers, carried at different places on the roll. The Cuarrman. What are you going to pay them? ; ‘ Mr. Rese. There is another carriage driver under the item for skilled laborers at $960. The CHarrman. You are increasing the salary from $600 to $960? Mr. Rezxsz, No, sir; it is not the same place. This $960 place is for another driver. The Cuarrman. Is he doing the same work that he has done here- tofore? . a Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Then you are increasing his salary $360? Mr. Rezse. No, sir; there is no increase in this man’s pay. This $600 place is merely a change in title. The Cuarrman. You say you are going to continue the services of the $600 man? Mr. Reese. Not in that place; not that man. The Cuarrman. Not the man; but the job. Mr. Rersr. We have a carriage driver’s place at $600 which was vacant when these estimates were prepared. The Cmarrman. It is vacant? Mr. Harrison. I understand that we now have a laborer in that place. The Civil Service Commission gave us permission to em- ploy a laborer until we could get the title changed. We are, there- ar recommending that the title be changed to “ messenger or la- orer.” The Cuareman. Is this the situation: You had a carriage driver at $600? Mr. Resse. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. You had to dispense with his services because vou could not fill the place at. that salary, and vou are now employing another carriase driver at $960 on some other roll or under some other designation? You find it necessary to do ‘that, nobody finds fault with it, bunt we should have the facts—are those the facts? Mr. Reese. No. sir. We have had two carriage drivers, not count- ing this man at $600. One is paid $960 and is carried under item 95 as a skilled laborer. Another carriage driver is paid $840. In addition to these two, we had this third place. under item 101, which we could not fill with a carriage driver at $600. But. as Mr. Harri- son has explained to you, the Civil Service Commission gave us authority to fill the place with a laborer at $600, with the understand- ing that the department would recommend in the estimates that the title of the place be changed, and this we are now proposing. I am trying my best to explain it, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Harrison has explained that the Civil Service Commission gave us permission to employ a laborer at $600. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 31 Mr. ANnpERson. You have here now one carriage driver at $960? Mr. Reese. Yes, sir. Mr. Anpverson. You have another at $840? Mr. Rezsr. Yes, sir. Mr. Anverson. Another at what? : Mr. Reesz. Another place at $600, which we have filled with a laborer, not being able to get a carriage driver. Mr. Anperson. There is no driver in that place, and you can em- ploy a laborer at $600 to drive the carriage? Mr. Resse. No, sir; we want a change in designation. Mr. Harrison. He will not drive the carriage except possibly as a relief. - The Cuarrman.. How much are you paying the laborer? Mr. Reese. $600. Mr. Anperson. And he is working as a carriage driver? Mr. Harrison. He is working and will continue to work as a laborer, although at times he may relieve the carriage drivers. The Civil Service Commission suggested that we change the designa- tion of this place to that of laborer. . Mr. McLaveuturw of Michigan. How many carriages have you for which you provide drivers? Mr. Reesz. We have four carriages, but not four drivers. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. For whose use are they? Mr. Ressr. For the use of the Secretary and of the disbursing officer when he goes up to the Treasury to draw money to pay the employees, and for other official] business. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Has the Secretary’s Office any automobiles ? Mr. Harrison. No, sir; it has not. Mr. Lesuer. Could it save time if it had any? Mr. Harrison, Unquestionably. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. How many horses do you keep for that particular service? Mr. Rerse. Six. Mr. Rusey. I had supposed that the Secretary used a carriage because he preferred to drive horses rather than use an automobile, as I notice that some of the other Secretaries do. The Postmaster General likes to ride around in a carriage, and I have noticed two other Cabinet officers riding in carriages, and I supposed that the Secretary of Agriculture preferred them. Mr. Harrison. As a matter of fact, he does, Gov. Rubey. At the same time he recognizes full well that automobiles are great time savers, especially in covering considerable distances—for in- stance, in going from one section of the city to another. Mr. Rusey. Is it really cheaper to maintain automobiles than it is to maintain carriages and horses? Mr. Harrison. I imagine that is true. As a matter of fact, the department has a real need for some machines here in Washington. You know that the department is located away from the center of the city and away from the other branches of the Government. It is an exceedingly difficult place to get to, and the time consumed annu- ally by the officers of the department in going to the other places is 32 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. enormous in the aggregate. The car line does not render very satis- factory service. Altonether jt would be a real saving to provide a few machines to be used solely for official business. Mr. McLaueuttn of Nebraska. Do you suppose it would be pos- sible to get a few of these Army cars that are rusting away? r. Harrison. Under the provisions of section 7 of the Post Office appropriation act of February 28, 1919, some cars have been turned over to the department for use in connection with road-building oper- ations under the provisions of the Federal aid road act. Most of _these cars have been distributed to the States, but, in accordance with the law, a small percentage of them have been retained by the depart- ment for the use of the district and field engineers of the Bureau of Public Réads in connection with road-building operations. A few are assigned to district No. 10, the headquarters of which are located here, but the machines are used in inspecting road projects in the States covered by the district—Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and other States. The Cuarrman. In the maintenance of these automobiles you have not authority to repair them nor to buy gasoline, but you have authority to hire machines. Mr. Harrison. A law passed in 1914 prohibits us from purchasing or maintaining motor-propelled passenger-carrying vehicles without | specific authority from Conese We can not buy any passenger- carrying machines for use in the District of Columbia, but this is not so with reference to trucks. ate CuairmAn, New legislation will be required to take care of that ? Mr. Harrison. New legislation will be required before we can pur- chase any passenger-carrying machines. The Cuarrman. And maintain them. Mr. Harrison. And maintain them either. The Cuarrman. I am told that you can hire a car, but that you can not buy gasoline with which to operate it. Mr. Harrison. Yes; we can hire machines. We have requested Congress to give us authority to maintain the cars which we have secured from the War Department under section 7 of the Post Office appropriation act of February 28, 1919. A provision carrying this authority has been inserted in the Kahn bill, which has been favorably reported by the Committee on Military Affairs. he CuarirMANn. The Reavis bill is a substitute for the Kahn bill; I believe no legislation will be added to that. Mr. Harrison. We would like very much then to have inserted in the Agricultural appropriation bill a provision giving us authority to maintain the machines secured from the War Department. The Cuarrman. Will you submit a suggestion? Mr. Harrtson. I shall be very glad to do so and I hope that some legislation will be enacted to take care of the situation. The Cuarrman. How many Assistant Secretaries have you? Mr. Harrison. We have one and one vacancy. The Cuairman. The law provides two. ,; Mr. Rupey. It provides for two, but one is not filled. Mr. Anperson. You are having some difficulty in keeping them. Mr. Harrison. You will recall that the men who occupied the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 33 positions created during the war were borrowed from the States and they came here to serve merely during the existence of the emergency. After the emergency was over they returned to their former duties. I refer to Mr. Pearson, Mr. Ousley, and Mr. Christie. It was necessary for Mr. Pearson to return to Iowa before the ex- piration of the war. We had three Assistant Secretaries during the war. One was provided for in the regular appropriation bill, and the other two in the food production act. In the appropriation bill for the current year Congress made provision for two Assistant Sec- retaries regularly. At the present time we have one Assistant Sec- retary and there is one vacancy which has not been filled because of the difficulty of getting the right sort of man for the place at the compensation available. The Cuarrman. Is there anything more, Mr. Reese?’ Mr. Rexsz. I have nothing to add, Mr. Chairman. The Caarrman. Thank you, Mr. Reese. (The committee thereupon proceeded to consider the estimates of the Bureau of Entomology.) 164315—20——3 CoMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, House or REepresENTATIVES, Friday, December 19, 1919. The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. The CxarrMan. Mr. Harrison, whom do you desire to have heard first? ; Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, Dr. H. C. Taylor, Chief of the Office of Farm Management, is here, and if it is agreeable to the committee he will present the estimates of that office. Bureau or Farm MANAGEMENT AND Farm Economics. The Cuatrman. I might say to the committee I have a communi- cation here from the Secretary in reference to the Office of Farm Management which, without objection, will be inserted in the record. (The letter referred to follows:) WasHInerTon, D. C., December 12, 1919. Hon. Giupert N. HAvGEN, Chairman Committee on Agriculture, House of Representatives. ‘DEAR Nik. Havcen: In considering the estimates for the Office of Farm Management for the fiscal year 1921 I would like to suggest that $50,000 be made available for expenditure immediately upon the passage of the appro- priation bill. As you will readily understand, it would be highly desirable to begin the cost-of-production studies contemplated by the estimates with the opening of the crop season. If funds were available, therefore. for expanding the studies by the 1st of March or the ist of April, it would be possible to do a large amount of effective work during the coming season. On the other hand, if the increased funds recommended are not provided until July 1 of next year it would be necessary to defer much of the work until the following spring. I have asked Dr. H. C. Taylor, Chief of the Office of Farm Management, to discuss this matter in detail when he appears before the committee. Very truly, yours, .D. F. Houston, Secretary. The Carman (continuing). We will be glad to hear from you, Dr. Taylor. STATEMENT OF DR. H. C. TAYLOR, CHIEF OF THE OFFICE OF FARM MANAGEMENT, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Dr. Taytor. I have put in your hands a brief of what I wish to present. On the. first page is an outline of the different lines of work to be undertaken by the Office of Farm Management, as out- lined by the special committee called by the Secretary last January and February to draw up a plan for the reorganization of the Office 35 ' 36 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. of Farm Management. You will see that it includes the cost of pro- duction, farm organization, farm finance, farm labor, agricultural. history and geography, land economics, and farm-life studies. _ I wish to give special attention to the subject of cost of production. Preliminary work has been started in this field. Necessarily it had _to be on a rather small scale, but cost of production studies have been made in the cost of producing cotton, wheat, tobacco, and sugar, and special, detailed studies have been undertaken in those regions where the agriculture is of a mixed character, such as in the Corn Belt, where you can not find the cost of Paice one specific product without getting detailed records from the whole farm. In a number of States special work has been organized to give detailed results. This work is going on in Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, and Montana. I wish to give you some notion of the kind of results that can be gotten from the cost studies. Mr. Tincuer. Let me understand you: Is this [referring to Dr. Taylor’s detailed outline of work] to go in as part of the hearings? Dr. Tayzor. If you like. I have prepared this statement espe- ially in order to get the matter before you, and thought the simplest way would be to put it in your hands and then to discuss the points involved. ; Mr. Tincuer. Do you think it ought to go into the hearings, Mr. Chairman ? ; The Cuarrman. All of it? Mr. Trncuer. Yes. The CHairman. It occurred to me that we might print the first page here. That gives in detail the projects. take it you will cover most of it in your statement. I am not sure that the charts can be printed without special authority from the House. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, we can eliminate the charts. I think it would be very helpful to the committee to have the statement available in the hearings. It will cover only five or six printed ‘pages. The Cuairman. Do you expect to cover this fully in your re- marks? Mr. Tartor. I only expect to refer to it and to discuss this chart which can not well be printed. The Cuarrman. Then I believe it had better go in. Mr. Rusry. Yes; it had better goin. _ (The statement referred to follows, the charts being omitted :) STATEMENT OF THE CHIEF OF, THE OFFICE OF FarM MANAGEMENT IN SUPPORT oF THE ESTIMATES FOR THE BUREAU OF FARM MANAGEMENT AND Farm Eco- NOMICS FOR THE FiscaL Year 1921. “THE IMPORTANCE OF EXPANDING THE WORK IN FARM MANAGEMENT AND FARM ECONOMICS. Farm management and farm economics is an important branch ‘of agricul- tural research that has not yet received adequate attention in the Department of Agriculture. The problems which relate to the improvement of varieties of plants, the in- troduction of new plants from foreign countries, the improvement of cultural methods and practices, the control of plant diseases, insect and animal pests. the problems of soil fertility, the improvement of breeds of farm animals and AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 37 in methods of feeding and handling them, and the control of animal diseases— in short the problems which relate to the growing of particular crops or kinds of animals—have long received more adequate attention than have those which bear upon the effective organization of the farm. It is the function of the Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics to study the problem of combining all these individual lines of production into balanced systems of farming that will make for more efficient use of land, labor, and equipment, and the more intelligent combination of crops and live- stock enterprises, to the end that costs may be reduced, profits increased, and agriculture as a business put on a more satisfactory basis. Until recent years little attention has been given to this problem. Marketing, with its numerous economic questions, is now beginning to get attention in some measure com- mensurate with the importance of the problems involved. The next important step contemplated by the Department of Agriculture is the expansion of the work in farm management and farm economics in order that this important line of activity may be developed to the point where the demands for infor- mation in this field may be adequately met. OUTLINE OF RESEARCH WORK IN FARM MANAGEMENT AND FARM ECONOMICS AS RECOMMENDED BY SPECIAL COMMITTEES ON THE REORGANIZATION OF THE OFFICE OF FARM MANAGEMENT. I. Cost of production: 1. Final records. 2. Enterprise records. 8. Complete cost records. 4, Price relations. 5. Basic unit factors of cost. II. Farm organization: : 1. Types of farming. a. Determination of enterprises. b. Plan or combination of enterprises. 2. Size of business. , 3. Farm plan or layout. 4. Effective use of labor and equipment. . 5. Intensity of production. 6. Business methods. III. Farm finance: 1. Methods of financing. 2. Insurance. 3. Taxation. _ 4, Other financial relations. IV. Farm labor: 1. Supply and movement. 2. Trend of population. 8. Living and housing problems. 4. Creating new productive enterprises for farm labor. 5. Standards of supervision and compensation for farm labor. V. Agricultural history and geography: 1. Trend of agricultural development. 2. Shifts of agricultural production. 8. Relation of American to foreign agriculture. 4, Supervision of Atlas. VI. Land economics: 1, Land resources. 2. Land values. 8. Land ownership and tenancy. 4, Land settlement and colonization. 5. Land policies. VII. Farm life studies: 1. Rural home life. . 2. Opportunities for social contacts in typical rural communities. 8. Rural organization. 4, The relation of educational and religious institutions to farm-life problems. 38 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. ‘VII. Farm life studies—Continued. Benin 5. The relation of health and the various forms of disability to rural ‘welfare. 6. Social effects of the various types of farm labor, tenancy and land- lordism. COST OF PRODUCTION AND FARM ORGANIZATION. Cotton-cost studies have been made during. 1919.in 10 areas in South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, and,Texas. When completed these studies will show the basic elements of the cost of producing cotton on 830 farms. Wheat-cost data are being obtained in Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Minnesota, North Dakota, and South Dakota on approximately 650 farms. The study of the cost of pro- ducing sugar beets has been continued, cost data for about 260 farms having been obtained this year. These farms represent five areas in Utah and Idaho. The cost of producing tobacco is being studied on 150 representative tobacco farms in Kentucky in cooperation with the State experiment station. In cooperation with the experiment stations in Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Missouri, and Nebraska, accounts are being kept this winter on 25 farms in each State with a view to determining the cost of fattening cattle and the place of cattle feeding in the organization of the farm. In addition to these special studies, complete detailed accounts are being kept on about 150 farms in cooperation with the State colleges and experiment stations in Ohio, Kansas, Minnesota, and Montana. Such accounts are especially valuable in studying the problems of farm organization, and they contribute material information regarding the basic elements of cost. Farm-business analysis surveys have been continued in Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, West Virginia, New Hampshire, Ohio, Indiana, Iowa, and Wisconsin. Coopera- tive work in this line has been started in Maryland, New Jersey, Washington, and Idaho. In the application of the accounting method to the study of cost of production ‘much of the work can be carried on most effectively in conjunc- tion with studies in farm organization. This is especially true where more than one crop is produced on the same farm, as is generally the case. It is recognized that in cost studies many times the number of farms covered thus far should be studied to insure results that may be considered as authori- tative. With the limited funds available for this year the aim has been to develop practical methods of investigation which will yield the results desired when carried out on the more extensive scale contemplated in the present budget. There is an insistent demand for a study of the cost of the different kinds of farm power. In this day, when so much attention is being given to the in- troduction of mechanical power, it is a matter of great consequence that cost data should be available which will give the farmer a basis of deciding which kinds of power or which combination of the different kinds of power will enable bim to farm most effectively. Plans are being made for the starting of this work so soon as funds are available. EXAMPLES OF COST PRODUCTION DATA—COST OF PRODUCING COTTON IN 1913 AND 1918, SUMTER COUNTY, GA. In Table I is shown the number of farms producing cotton at various costs for the two years 1913 and 1918. For 1918 the costs are shown for 534 farms, 268 of which are white-owner operated farms, 49 white tenant, 31 colored owner, and 186 colored-tenant operated farms. In 1918 there -were 550 farms, 280 of which were white owner, 56 white tenant, 48 colored owner, and 166 eolored-tenant operated farms. These figures show a wide range in the cost of production on different farms for each year. In 1913 six farms produced cotton below 7 cents per pound, while three had costs above 30 cents per pound. In 1918 only two farms had costs of less than 13 cents per pound, while on 10 farms the costs were above 50 cents per pound. Seventeen per cent of the farms, producing 17 per cent of the cotton in 1918, had costs below 10 cents per pound, while 19 per cent of the farms, producing only 9 per cent of the cotton, had costs of 16 cents or more per pound. In 1918, 16 per cent of the farms, producing 25 per cent of the cotton, had costs under 20 cents per pound, while 16 per cent of the farms, producing only 7 per cent of the cotton, had costs of 35 cents or more per AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 39 pound. The'chart shows that in 1913 over 50 per cent of the farms produced cotton within a range of 10 to 14 cents per pound, and in 1918, 50 per cent of the farms produced within a range of 20 to 30 cents per pound. TasLe I1.—Variation in the cost of producing lint cotton per pound on different farms in Sumter County, Ga., 19138 and 1918. 1913 1918 Cost in cents per - pound-of lint. | white | White | Colored | Colored} All | White | White | Colored | Colored | All owners.| renters.| owners. | renters. | farms. | owners.| renters. owners. | renters. | farms. Farms. Farms. | Farms, e WON OO RH ito ooor oe So _ 1 7 6 7 3 3 6 3 1 1 1 2 Pet ND et et ROC OO AI COM iS] a co > © wo pane ~ w a a oe) > & o a a > Go _ D> oO an a o 40 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Taste Il.—Distribution of cost of producing cotton on farms opérated by white , . owners, Sumter County, Ga. . [1913-268 farms; 1918—280 farms.] 1913 ‘ 1918 ot ee “SCSMOL COSG rR RESS SRR Se inet oIt 7 pe ae Sign [eae ae cee Per cent | Cost per Per cent | Cost per. Cost per | “of total | pound of | ©St Per | ‘of toial | pound of acre. | cost. | lint. ace cost. lint. $0.051 $34. 46 45| ~$0.108 [019 9.23 12 "020. - 003 “1.76 2 005 - 033 21.37 28 .067 - 016 9.64}, 13 + 030 1122 | 76.46 |. 222.2200 239 Table II shows the items that go to make up the cost of producing cotton, divided into five groups: Labor, fertilizer, ginning, use of land, and “ other costs.” Labor was the largest single cost connected with the growing of cotton. The labor cost in 1913 was $16.52 per acre, or 5.15 cents per pound of lint, and $34.46 per acre, or 10.79 cents per pound of lint, in 1918. The expense for the use of cotton land, including real estate overhead expense, was second in im- portance. This cost in 1913 was $10.44 per acre, or 3.26 cents per pound of lint, and $21.37 per acre, or 6.9 cents per pound of lint, in 1918. The cost of fertilizer was $6.11 per acre, or 1.9 cents per pound of lint, in 1913, and $9.23 per acre, or 2.89 cents per pound of lint, in 1918. Ginning amounted to 93 cents per acre, or 0.3 cent per pound of lint, in 1913, and $1.76 per acre, or 0.5 cent per pound of lint, in 1918. “ Other costs,” including interest, shelter, and depreciation on machinery and mules, and minor items, amounted to $5.28 per acre, or 1.65 cents per pound of lint, for 1913, and $9.64 per acre, or 3 cents per pound of lint, in 1918. The total cost on these farms was $39.28 per acre, or 12.25 cents per pound of lint, in 1913, and $76.46 per acre, or 23.9 cents per pound of lint, in 1918. A ‘comparison of the figures for the two years shows a marked increase in cost, but a striking similarity between the two sets of figures showing per cent of total cost. Taste III.—Basie requirements in producing an acre of cotton. [Laurens County, Ga., 85 farms, 1918.) Range. Range. Aver- - Average, age, 85 . Remarks. 85 farms-| Lowest | Highest | farms. Tye a 10 farms. | 10 farms. farang farms Elements of cost. Unit. Quantity. | Quantity. | Quantity. | Dollars.| Dollars,| Dollars. 142 60 202 3 sO syayevs 63 42 90 Pounds.| 294 185 550 Man-hours. . Horse-hours. Fertilizer... ‘| On farms re- porting. Do. AMG crouse d Loads. .. SCO sarnierercisyssisiziernian Bushels. Sacks, baskets, and |.....:..-- sheets. Ginning, bags, and !.......... ties Do. Insurance and taxes. 30 28 -85 | Owned farms. Machinery on : . + Overhead.......... os 4,21 2. 88 6.09 3.18 8.80 | 46 owned farms. 3. 46 6.72 ]15 cash-rent MUS@SOL ATG oi 2ssie 5.5.0.0 | aie ainpernton ie aatiniait se ATMS cselcsein'n | e'siomiarclornies 7.33 farms. 7.37 | 12.79 | 22 cotton-rent farms. Yield per acre....... Pounds.| 277 168 459) | Lcanisealloacetced mmeeene a Lowest and highest, 6 farms reporting. AGRICULTURE. APPROPRIATION BILL. 41 Table III shows the nature of the cost data that are being collected for various farm products. ‘he elements or items of cost are expressed, wherever possible, in terms of quantity requirements... Not only averages of cost items but arrays and ranges of costs are calculated in order to bring out the wide’ variations that exist in crop-production costs. In this illustration (Table III): the data represent the results of a cost of cotton study on 85 farms in Laurens’ County, Ga. The range is shown by presenting as extremes the average of the 10 farms showing the lowest requirements for each item, and of the 10 farms showing the highest requirements. An important consideration in any compre- hensive expression of cost, in which many individuals are concerned, is that of the variations that exist, which are usually lost sight of in a general average. This is well shown by the differences in the various elements of cost between the two groups of farms illustrating range. : To calculate the money cost per acre or per pound of lint cotton from the data shown in this illustration it is necessary to place current prices on the labor, fertilizer, manure, and seed items in order to express the quantity ele- ments in dollars and cents. In the final determination of the cost pcr acre or per pound of lint, it is important to have in mind the type of cotton production— that is, whether the crop is produced on owned farms by the owners, under the cash-rent system, or under the cotton-rent plan—inasmuch as there is a wide variation on farms in the three tenure groups in the item of land rental, as well as on farms within each group. This is illustrated in the ar: ompanying example under the item “ use of land.” FARM FINANCIAL RELATIONS. During the past year attention in this field has been confined to agri- cultural insurance—loss by fire, windstorm, and tornado, loss of live stock by death, and loss of crops by hail. Especial attention has been given to the introduction of approved systems of accounts for the use of cooperative insur- ance companies; the improvement of their management through suggestions as to the most successful and equitable means of raising funds for payment of losses; and the prevention of losses by thorough systems of inspection of risks. In addition to insurance investigations the budget contemplates the study of a number of economic problems directly affecting the welfare of the farmer. Improvement in the methods of financing and maintaining efficient rural telephone service operated on a cooperative basis demands attention. Effective- ness of our present credit system in aiding landless farmers to become the owners of the land they till, together with the degree of efficiency with which needy farmers are able to secure season-to-season operating capital, are mat- ters worthy of deep consideration. Matters of rural taxation are important. There is a question of double taxation in those cases in which the farmer pays. a tax on the full value of his land, half the value of which is covered by a mortgage, and who at the same time is compelled to pay an increased interest charge to cover the tax on this mortgage. The relation of the personal property tax to the improvement of agriculture deserves careful consideration. The general problem of taxation in its relation to the problems of land ownership- and tenancy should receive attention. It is proposed that facts be compiled which will aid the correct solution of these rural financial problems. FARM LABOR, The farm-labor problem is becoming increasingly serious in the United States. It is especially important that studies be made which will point to the mainte- narce of an adequate supply of efficient help on the farms if American agricul- ture is to meet the demands made upon it. It is desired to collect the facts relating to the supply and movement of farm labor in the different parts of the United States and to ascertain the trend of agricultural population in its relation to the future labor supply. Living and housing conditions essential to a contented life for the hired man on the farm, the provision of continuous employment, and the adjustment of the question of compensation for farm labor demand special attention. Continuous employment ard satisfactory com- pensation are closely connected with the problems of farm organization and the introduction of new productive enterprises which will provide a more even demand for labor throughout the year and yield a return which will justify its employment. No funds being available no special work is being done on these subjects during the present year. 42 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. AGRICULTURAL HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY. The work in this section consists in bringing together the historical and See aphical facts which lead to a better understanding of agricultural con- ons. we? Especial attention is given to the history of agricultural development as in- fluenced by geographic and economic forces. Studies of this kind are now being made of sheep, wheat, cattle, ard dairying. The purpose of these his- torical studies is to show the effect of change in prices on production and to show which conditions are temporary and which are permanent in order to interpret present facts and forecast future developments. The geographic studies show the relation of climate, soils, topography, markets, the character and density of the population, and other geographic facts, to the utilization of land, farm practices, size of farms, and to the kinds of crops and live stock which can be grown with best results in each part of the United States. This work contributes to the solution of problems in farm organization, land economics, and various other lines of research by supplying facts which give breadth of view and balance to judgment. The responsibility of preparing the Atlas of American Agriculture is assigned to this section of the office, though much of the work is done in other bureaus of the Department of Agriculture. Much information has been accumulated in different bureaus as a result of the investigation of special problems. In the Atlas it is attempted to bring together and organize the best information available regarding the history and present condition of agriculture in every section of the United States. ’ LAND ECONOMICS. The relationship of the farmer to the land is becoming a more and more serious problem. Tenancy is increasing rapidly in the best of our agricultural regions. Land values have increased to such levels that it is becoming more and more difficult for the landless man to acquire the ownership of a farm. In fact, speculation in land has pushed values so high in many sections of the country that an ordinary farmer can not earn enough profit on the value of the land to pay interest on the investment in it. Frequently it does not pay to buy land for the purpose of farming it. A recent investigation made by the Division of Land Economics showed that nearly one-half of the large increase in the price of lands in certain sections of the Corn Belt durivg the past year has gone into the pockets of people who are not farming the Jand—a large number of them city speculators. Enormous areas of our best farming lands are controlled by absentee owners instead of by the farmer who tills them. The condition is all the more unsatisfactory because the relations between landlords and tenants have for the most part not been adjusted satisfactorily with a view to stimu- lating good methods of agriculture and the conservation of the soil. In the semiarid regions of the West is an area of land in extent as great as the original Thirteen Colonies where the conditions under which the land is beld are such that there is little effective control over the use of the range. In the Southwest alone losses of livestock aggregating millions of dollars have occurred during the last two years because the relation of the ranchmen to the land precluded any effective conservation of the range in anticipation of drouth. There are considerable areas which are on the border line between farming land and grazing land. No land policy has yet been devised which is suffi- ciently elastic to provide properly for these aiternative uses. In certain sec- tions thousands of farmers have experienced tragic failure during the past few years because they have been induced to settle lands that were unsuitable for successful farming. In the great areas of cut-over lands and swamp lands no careful studies have been made to determine what classes of land can be economically used for farming and what classes should be reserved for other purposes. Little prog- ress has been made to determine what methods of improvement and utilization will prove most economical. Such questions as those relating to the cost of rendering the land available for use, the present tenure and prices of the land, what agricultural enterprises would prove most profitable, minimum size of farm required to support a family in comfort, kinds of equipment needed and methods of improvement to be employed, sources of credit, marketing arrange- ments, and conditions of transportation remain largely unsolved. At the present AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 43 time settlement of these lands is being promoted by methods which result in an enormous number of failures, so that many sections that are capable of de- veloping a prosperous agriculture have been given an evil reputation which retards their development. During the past year, with the limited funds available beginnings have been made in the investigation of the following subjects: (1) Methods of renting farms in dairy, wheat, and cotton regions with a view of determining what kinds of lease contracts would result in improved methods of farming and a fair division of returns. (2) Land valiés and land speculation in the Corn Belt. (3) Relationship of land tenure’ to use of land in the western ranges, (4) Methods of land settlement in the cut-over lands of the Great Lakes 2 region. ; (5) Causes and effects of the increase of tenacy in certain regions— especially in the Cotton Belt. (6) Methods by which tenant farmers acquire land. (7) Classification of land resources and economical methods of land utilization in the cut-over lands of the Great Lakes region. Because of the limited funds available the scope of these studies has been greatly restricted. The proposed budget contemplates an increase in the extent and scope of these studies in order that the information may be obtained necessary for the development of land policies that will remedy the serious ae maladjustment in the relation of the farmer to the land which e tills. FARM LIFE STUDIES. In every effort to improve agriculture, one important question repeatedly comes to the front. How is the life side of farming to be developed and en- riched so as to keep step with the upward trend of the economic side of farm- ing? This is by no means a question to be answered lightly, nor is it one to be solved by any single, simple remedy. Prosperity alone on any particular farm, for example, will not solve the life question for the family on that farm. This is true because the satisfactions of life are so largely a matter of community life. community activities, community institutions, and commu- nity ideals, all of which are developed slowly and not purchasable with money. In fact, many a successful and high-spirited farmer, on attaining a competence, has left the farming enterprise and farming community fo resi- dence in town or city in order to obtain the satisfactions of life which he has earned with his industry and thrift, but which he has failed to find in the country community. His place on the farm is altogether too often filled by a less efficient farmer with a family whose attainments and ideals are undeveloped. Such a turn of affairs just at the time when econoniic pros- perity has been achieved on the farm, is a distinct loss to agriculture as a whole and to the country community in particular. The deficiencies in country living conditions are many. Moreover the com- munity ailments of our farm populations are in danger of becoming more or less chronic. There are altogether too many sections of the United States, it is to be feared, where the farmer is badly handicapped in; his attempt to maintain a thorough-going American standard of living for his family. The serious deficiency seems to be primarily one of institutions—institutions of a nature, moreover, which in town and city have become commonplace. How to furnish our farm population with the adequate social instruments of a full American life is an important matter for inquiry. In the unstable conditions of family life on the farm, scientific agriculture finds a peculiar impediment to its rapid advance. If the well-known tendency of progressive and successful farmers to leave farming on becoming prosperous should long continue, a still more serious hindrance to.modern methods of agriculture would present itself, for tradition and custom rather than up-to-date methods would then quite likely have right of way in farm practice, and business inferiority would menace our rural citizenship. This condition of general rural social instability should be carefully investigated. Farm-life studies have been designed to inquire into the deficiencies of country living conditions. It has been demonstrated that rural life is sus- ceptible of scientific investigation. There are no lines of research more worthy of Federal support than the scientific study of farm life and the discovery of methods of giving to farm life permanent satisfaction. A4 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Only a small beginning has been made in this important field, Preliminary studies have been worked out on community centers, rural organizations, the social effects of tenancy, and the essential educational basis of a sound country life. DEMONSTRATION ACTIVITIES. The end in view in the work of the Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics is better farming and better living. It is essential, therefore, that the results of investigation be carried to the farmers. It is also essential that the educational work done through publications be supplemented by demonstra- tion work carried on in cooperation with the States Relations Service. Farm management demonstration work is now being conducted in 26 States. The demonstrators are maintained jointly by the United States Department of Agriculture and the agricultural colleges. A The farm management demonstrators constitute a trained force available for giving immediate attention to economic problems. The duties of the farm management demonstrators are: - 1. To work with county agents and other agencies in bringing to the attention of farmers, in terms of their own farm operations, the principles of farm management. ‘ 2. To demonstrate to farmers a practical method of recording, summarizing, and analyzing the farm business to serve as a basis for modifications designed to increase the effectiveness of their work. 3. To demonstrate to farmers the importance of efficient organization and administration of the farm business. 4. To furnish farmers with standards of excellence in farming taken from farms in their own vieinity that will enable each of them to see by comparison the weakness of his own farm organization and the improvements required to secure desired results. APPROPRIATIONS REQUESTED OF CONGRESS FOR THE FISCAL YEAR ENDING JUNE 30, 1921. For the prosecution of the work of the Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics as outlined above the Congress is asked to appropriate the sum of $611,990. It ig proposed to use approximately one-half of this amount in ascertaining the cost of producing the staple farm products. About one-fourth will be devoted to the study of land tenure and other land problems. The remainder will be used in carrying on work in farm organization, farm financial relations, farm labor, agricultural history and geography, and farm-life studies. In asking for this limited sum of money, which is less than 10 cents per farm in the United States, it is recognized that it is not commensurate with the importance of the farm economic problems to be dealt with. It is planned to develop the work gradually on sound lines. In fixing upon the amount asked for expanding the work this year the number of men with proper training who can be secured at this time has been given primary consideration. With the funds requested it is believed that results can be secured such as will lead the Congress to desire further expansion as rapidly as men properly trained for doing satisfactory work in this field are available, to the end that in the course of a few years the Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics will be able to meet in an adequate way the demand for farm economic facts. Dr. Taytor. I have brought down this morning a number of copies of the reports of the special committee on reorganization of the Office of Farm Management, so that in case members of this com- mittee are interested they may have copies. I would like to call your attention especially to the chart in the brief which I have distributed. You have here the figures on the cost of producing lint cotton, and I present this simply as a sample. You see, for the farms covered by the study, the cost of producing cotton in 1913 and in 1918. In the left-hand column you have the cents per pound of lint cotton, and in the right-hand column you will find the number of farmers who produced at these different i: AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. “45 costs. For instance, you find in 1918 two of the farms studied produced at a cost of 5 cents a pound, four at 6 cents, but the great numbers were producing at 10, 11, 12, and up to 16 and 17 cents. In 1918 you will find that the costs were generally higher. There was one man producing at 11, one at 12, and seven or eight at 13; but when you get to 20 cents, between 20 and 30 cents, you find more than half of the cotton produced. I bring this before you to show the wide range in costs and to call your attention to the fact that the average is perhaps not the impor- tant thing in cost studies, but getting the range of costs. . In the table at the bottom of this chart you will note the percent- age of the cotton raised on the farms covered by the study that was produced below different costs. For instance, in 1918, 91 per cent was produced at 16 cents or below; 77 per cent was produced at 14 cents or below; 56 per cent was produced at 12 cents or below, and only 17 per cent of it produced at 10 cents or below, whereas_in 1918 81 per cent of it was produced at 30 cents or below. In the application of cost figures to the problem of a necessary price, these ranges need to be taken into account, and consideration needs to be given to the question of how high the price needs to be in order to secure the bulk of this product. Obviously, if the price equaled the average cost, all producing at a cost above the average would be producing at a loss; those producing below the average would be making a profit. Mr. Vor You do not show the average cost of production here, do you? Dr. Taytor. I do not on this statement. In Table II are figures that show the averages. The real purpose, however, is to show the distribution of costs as between labor, fertilizer, ginning, use of land, overhead, etc. And there you see the average was 12.25 cents for 1913 and 23.9 cents for 1918. It is our opinion that the emphasis should not be upon the average but upon the range, and of course it is not to be expected that a price should be high enough to cover the costs of those men who are producing at an exceedingly high cost. There is another very important use, of course, of figures of this kind, and the matter of first importance is that of farm organiza- tion. The men who are producing at high costs need to know the methods that are being used by the men producing at the lower costs. In other words, the cost of production statistics give the starting point for the study of better farm organization and better manage- ment of farms. : Mr. ‘Anprrson. Have you discussed, Dr. Taylor, the method pur- ‘sued in arriving at these costs and figures? Dr. Taytor. I have not. That can be discussed at this time if you ‘desire to have me do so. Mr. Anperson. Whenever you think best. Dr. Taytor. The method we use when we have a single crop is.a less expensive method than where we have a number of crops com- ‘bined. It has not been the object in getting cost figures in cotton to ‘get all of the information with regard to every activity on that farm, ‘for the simple reason that it costs too much to get the material. 46 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. In 1913, over 80 per cent.of the income on the farms studied came from cotton and so we concentrated upon getting the information for cotton by what is called the survey method. Each of the farms was visited and the man who was making the survey, with his blanks be- fore him, asked questions and got together all the information with regard to the receipts and expenditures (the total receipts and ex- penditures) on that farm. Special studies of cotton are being made which will show the amount of labor that was put in on cotton, but it is not attempted to find out what the man was doing all the rest of his time; merely the time he spent on his cotton. A few of the elements, of course are looked into—the labor costs, the fertilizer costs, the ginning costs, and charges for use of the land. _ Mr. Anprerson. May I ask you a question there without interfer- ing with your plan of procedure? - Dr. Tayzor. Yes, at any time. Mr. Anperson. I take it from what you say that these figures are not arrived at from accounts kept by those people concurrently with the doing of the work, or the incurring of the expense? Dr. Tayxor. No elaborate records. These are based upon the sur- vey method. There are several] methods that can be used in getting costs. We have found the cost of securing the figures on a farm vary greatly according to the method we use. What we want to do is to use a method that is sufficiently accurate for the particular subject involved. Now when we make a cost-accounting study in a region where there is a great diversity in the farm business, and there are three or four important, separate, enterprises, then we give more at- tention to detailed reports of the labor, so that we get a report of exactly what was done by each worker each day in the year, in order that the labor costs may be distributed to the different enterprises. Where, however, the major part of the labor is put upon one enter- prise, we distribute the entire costs of the labor according to the. re-. ceipts. In this particular case, I-should explain that these figures for 1913 were dug up out of surveys that were made in Sumter: County, Ga., for the year 1913 and the materials in the office were rer worked with a view to getting them in this form. And they are based upon the survey method, which is not as accurate in every de- tail as the detailed cost-accounting method, which is in use at the present time on about 150 farms, more largely in the regions .where farming is diversified. Mr. Hurcuinson. Do you consider the production in your cost system at all? In other words, suppose I raised a bale of cotton to the acre in 1918 and in 1913 I only raised half a bale to the acre. Dr. Taytor. Yes. The variation in yield is one of the principal occasions of variation in cost per pound of lint. Mr. Hurcuinson. That is what I supposed. ~ Dr. Tartor. Yes. So that when you get the costs for one year on one farm you do not have what is necessarily the cost for the next year on that farm. There is not only a wide range from farm to farm but a wide range on a given farm from year to year. Mr. Hurcuinson. You raised a great deal less cotton in 1918 than - you did in 1913? Dr. Taytor. Mr. Peck, what are the comparative yields? : Mr. Pecx. It was slightly less on these farms for 1918 than fot 1913—on the farms pictured here. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 47 Mr. Hurcuinson. Then you add your cost of fertilizer and labor to the cost of producing that cotton, do you not? Dr. Taytor. The cost for fertilizer per unit of cotton would be greater in 1918 if they used as much fertilizer. f Mr. Hurcuinson. I understand. Dr. Taytor. But I think they did not use as much fertilizer. Mr. Hurcuinson. That is the reason for this lower production? Dr. Taytor. It was, perhaps, one factor. 3 Mr. Hurcuinson. It really depends on production how much you get for costs? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. Hurcuinson. My experience is that you will find one farmer is very successful and another one is not, and you must add that to the cost of production. Dr. Taytor. Our effort is to portray the facts as they are, and that is what we are trying to do. We are not trying to find—we doubt if there is such a thing as the one cost of producing cotton. What we want to do is to portray the facts which will show there is a great diversity in costs of producing cotton and, taking that as a starting point, there are two or three important things to consider. The one of first importance is fatm organization, with a view to bringing up those farms with such high costs. And that is one of the major functions, as we look upon our work. Table I is a detailed table of these costs distributed on the basis of whether or not they were white owners or white renters, colored owners or colored renters, and you find the range of costs in both instances very similar. In Table III we attempt to present what we call the basic re- quirements in producing cotton. In studying the costs for 1918 on over 800 farms in 10 different areas in the Cotton Belt, the results of which are not yet available, we got at the number of man hours required, the number of horse hours required, the amount of fertilizer, manure, seed, sacks re- quired, the charge for ginning, insurance, taxes, machinery, overhead, and the use of land. Having gotten those elements of ‘costs, we are now getting the production for 1919. We got the acreage last spring and now we are getting the production per acre on those same farms. As soon as we get that material in we are able, on the basis of those facts, to figure the cost of this year’s crop on those farms. Once we get this work started the amount of work each year is very..much less. Mr. Anpverson. I dislike to interrupt you, but I would like to inquire while I have these things in my mind, if it does not disturb you-— Dr. Taytor. It does not disturb me at all. ; Mr. Anpverson. Do these studies indicate anything with reference to the relation of management to cost? I mean the relation of man- agement to cost in its relation to production ? Dr. Taytor. There are certain things very clearly indicated in this Sumter County study, in comparing management in 1913 and 1918. One important change is that the percentage of the total income from cotton fell more than 10; that is, it was above 80 and it fell down to 70, or below 70. In the meantime, the velvet bean -had come in and they were producing more hogs and better hogs. In other words, the educational campaign which had been going A8 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. .on there for a more diversified type of farming was becoming’ ef- fective, and that was clearly pictured in the comparison. A study of this would, of course, take in specific cases. You take ‘the farmers that have the high cost and those with low cost and you will tind part of the difference is due to yield. Then the explanation of the difference in yield in part goes back to nature and in part .to the character of the operations, the way in which the farming is carried on; for instance, a type of farming that keeps the soil in good condition as against the type of farming that reduces the soil and results in low yields. : Mr. Anperson. What I am getting at is whether these cost figures are sufficiently indicative to point out deficiencies of management which would, if corrected, result in greater production with smaller cost ¢ Dr. Taytor. That is exactly the thing they are intended to do. And as these reports are analyzed more and more carefully from year to year, the skill with which we are able to point out the de- ‘ficiencies in the management and make suggestions with regard to better management is ever increasing. Of course, when we go into .a@ given county and make a survey and find certain conditions, we feel we must be rather conservative about giving advice until we have studied the matter long enough to understand the whole situation. Mr. Anverson. Then let me ask you this question: I take it from what you have said that there is at present no cost system developed which will give you exact data upon which you can determine the _ deficiencies of management and so forth. What you are seeking to do primarily, at first, is really to work out a system of cost accounting ? ; Dr. Taytor. That is the first and fundamental thing and the work this year has been in samples by different methods with a view to finding the methods that apply to particular types of farming. We do not expect when the best systems have been developed that the same system will be used for all types of farming. We have just this fall started studies in the cost of fattening beef cattle. We have these started in five States. The method here is to go into a community and take a general farm survey of 100 farms which give the general view of the agriculture of that region. While taking that survey, we get detailed information .regarding those farms. From this number 25 are picked out, on which they are going to feed two carloads of cattle or more, and, of course, : keep hogs, during the winter; that is 25 farms are selected and a man is employed to make it his entire job to continually visit those 25 farms to keep the detailed facts up to date, so we will know exactly what has been fed to those cattle and the labor require- ments on the cattle and all of the cost facts relating to the fattening of those cattle from the time the cattle are put in the feed lot and what they weighed when put in the feed lot, until they go on the scales and are sold. Me Lesuer. Have not some of the State colleges been doing that work ? ; Dr. Tartor. Yes. Mr. Lesuer. For years? Dr. Tartor. Cornell, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois have . been doing work of that kind for several years. Mr. Peck, who is AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 49 here this morning, who was at the University of Minnesota, and who for several years had charge of the detailed cost-accounting work there, and has published a very considerable amount of work—the best work, I think, that has been issued from any agricultural college on costs—has been brought to Washington to take charge of all these cost studies. Mr. Lesner. Don’t you think it can be studied better at these col- leges than it can on the farm? Dr. Taytor. You mean on the college farm? Mr. Lzsuer. They can keep the costs, prices, and everything that enters into it? Dr. Taytor. Of course, the costs at college farms are very abnor- mal for various reasons, because experimental work is in the fore- ground rather than production for profit. But that leads me to call your attention to the fact that in these cost studies, in accordance with the recommendations that were made to the Secretary last spring, the effort is to cooperate with the colleges as far as possible. And these beef-cost studies that are being carried on at tHe present time are in cooperation with the colleges on a 50-50 basis, so that the man who is doing the detail work is constantly in close touch and under the direction more or less of the man in charge of the farm-management work at the colleges. Thus there is no duplication of work, but a harmonious relationship between the Department of Agriculture and the colleges in carrying on this work. We have exactly the same beef-cattle feeding project carried on in five States at the present time, which also involves the hog feeding, so that the results in those five States can be put together. The dif- ficulty is, with the funds available we were not able to start this on an adequate scale, but we decided we would start in with a quality of work that would be satisfactory, with the hope that we would be able to expand it the second year. Furthermore, we feel it will be necessary to carry these beef studies through a period of five years in order to get adequate results. Mr. Tincuer. Suppose you had had sufficient funds and had been able to know the exact cost of production of all meat products, say, for 1918—I wish you would put in the record just what advantage that would be; how you would use that information to advantage? Dr. Tayxor. That material would have great value from at least two points of view. From the standpoint of the general public, if we had adequate and satisfactory figures of cost, it is believed that there would be greater willingness for the farmer to receive a fair price for his product; from the standpoint of the farmer, that he . would be more likely to get a fair price. And if he gets a fair price, he is happy to continue regularly in the business. So that from the standpoint of the farmer and consumer, it will run more evenly from year to year. . Mr. Tincuer. If you had had the exact cost of production of those products in 1917 and the public had had the full information, or had had it in 1918 even, and the public had been fully informed of the costs of producing all those articles, would not that have had a tendency to cause dissatisfaction with the farmer in 1919? Dr. Taytor. On the ground that—— Mr. Tincuer. That the increased cost has been so much? 164315—20—_4 50 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Taytor. Of course, the costs to the farmer have increased rapidly during the war period. Wages followed the prices up. The cost of raw material of various kinds followed up. So that the costs have been rising all of the time. Since you ask that question, I want to proceed to say, however, these cost studies have value not only from the standpoint of the relation of cost to price but also from the standpoint of the better organization of the farm, and each --. individual who is producing at a cost that classifies entirely too high has his attention at once called to the fact and it awakens him to the necessity of reducing his costs. And that is the starting point for the work of reorganization whichis fundamental in the work of the Office of Farm Management. 5 Mr. McLaveutin of Mihigan. How is this called to their at- tention ? Dr. Taytor. In the case of the specific farms where the records are kept of course he gets’the information for his farms of exactly what his costs are, and by having these records published he sees what other people’s costs are. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. How long after they are taken is it before they are published ? Dr. Taytor. That depends upon a variety of circumstances. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. How long after they are taken are they published, I ask? ; Dr. Tarror. I will say this, that the materials regarding the crop for 1919 are not all in in the office as yet. The basic factors of cot- ton costs are in the office, so that as soon as we get the yields on each of those farms we will have the material. Then, the amount of time that is required for tabulating means a few months, and I should say that by the lst of March—is that too early, Mr. Peck? Mr. Pec. No. Dr. Taytor. By the 1st of March the cost statements for those 800 cotton farms will be ready for publication? Mr. Prcx. Yes, sir. Dr. Taytor. That will be about the time he starts in on the pro- duction of his next year’s crop. Mr. Anperson. How many cost of production studies are being followed now; I mean what particular lines do you follow? You referred to cotton? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. Anvrrson. And to beef production. Is there anything else? Dr. Taytor. Sugar in Utah and Idaho; the cost figures on sugar. ‘Then I mentioned the beef-cattle studies, and tobacco is one project which is in cooperation with the State of Kentucky, or about 150 farms. That is being carried on by the more detailed method, where a man continually visits those farms. Mr. Anverrson. You expect to extend those studies this coming year to other projects? Dr. Taytor. The expectation is first to expand to an adequate basis the work that is already started. For instance, these beef studies we want to expand those to three units in each State, so that instead of 125 farms in five States we will have three times that many; that is, instead of 25 farms in each State, we will have 75 farms in each State. And the wheat studies are entirely inadequate at the present AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 51 time; we were unable to get records from more than 600 farms this year, which is entirely inadequate. In addition to the expansion of the work that is started, the addi- tional thing we want to do, one of the special things we want to do, is to get some new material on the cost of farm power. At the pres- ent time, as you know, there is a very great demand on the part of the farmers to know the relative costs of horse power and tractor power, and projects are being planned and the States are glad to cooperate in carrying on studies along that line. Mr. Anverson. I would like to ask where the wheat studies are being conducted or will be conducted? _Dr. Taytor. The wheat studies are just in progress now for the 1919 crop. Can you name the States, Mr. Peck? Mr. Peck. In the winter-wheat area, Kansas, Nebraska, and Mis- souri; in the spring-wheat area, Minnesota, North and South Dakota. Mr. Anverson. What part of Minnesota? Mr. Pec. I believe Clay and Traverse were the two counties. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. These units are 25 farms each in the beef studies? ; Dr. Tartor. In the beef-cost studies, one man is looking after 25 arms. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. And you have a man for each unit? Dr. Taytor. Yes; we have a man for each unit and we have just one unit in the State at the present time, and we would like to have three locations of that kind in each of those States. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You were speaking of the cost of production of sugar. Dr. Taytor. Yes. a ie tAUeH EOS of Michigan. You are working in Utah and Idaho? Dr. Taytor. Utah and Idaho this year. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. I presume the sugar manufacturers all operate in about the same way. They make a contract with the farmer to deliver his beets at so much a ton? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Regardless of the cost of produc- tion to the farmer, beets cost, the manufacturer of sugar just so much? Dr. Tartor. Yes. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. And he must keep a very accurate account of the cost of production of sugar from the point of the purchase of the beets. What can you do in that line? Dr. Taytor. What we do is to study the cost of production on the farm, so that the farmer may have some basis for determining meeuier or not he can produce beets at a price which the factory will offer. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. Can he not tell at the end of the year when he gets the money from the manufacturer whether he has made any money or not? Dr. Tayxor. If he is producing beets and nothing else, it is a rela- tively easy matter for him to know whether he has made any money or not; but if he is producing beets as one crop in combination with a large number of other crops he can not tell whether he has made or lost money on any one particular enterprise without the cost studies. 52 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _ Mr. McLaveunry of Michigan. What are the manufacturers pay- ing the farmers in Utah for their beets? : Dr. Taytor. I believe $10.50 was the basic price. I have not seen their contracts. They probably get $1 a ton for every cent sugar sells for above 9 cents. That is the way the contracts are drawn in Wisconsin; so that the price varies with the price the factory gets for the sugar. The Cuarrman. How are those prices arrived at? Dr. Taytor. The price was offered by the factory. | f The Cuairmay. Is it some agency of the Government in Washing- ton ¢ ; Mr. McLavceuuin of Michigan. It is a matter of contract? Dr. Taytzor. It is a matter of contract. The Cuamman. The Government does not exercise any authority over the matter ? Dr. Tarzor. Not as I understand it. The CHairman. It has not for the current year? Dr. Taytor. As I understand, there is no control over that; it is simply a private contract. The Cuarrman. Do you know what the increase in price made to the farmers for beets has been during a series of years? Dr. Taytor. Beets were predict in Wisconsin for $4.50 a ton before the war. The Cuarrman. The contract price between the farmers and the manufacturers has not been as low as that for a long time. Bi Taytor. It has gone from $4.50 up to $6, and then it jumped to $10. The Cuairman. How long ago was it $4.50? a Dr. Taytor. That is 10 years or so ago. I grew a crop of beets in 1917 and I got $6 a ton that year. The crop was grown by a share man on my farm this year—— The Cuarrman. Was that on the basis of the sugar content? Dr. Taytor. Without regard to the sugar content. The factory furnished the seed and charged for it, of course, so that they, in a way, controlled the kind of beets that were being grown, and it was without regard to the sugar content. The Cuairman. Were all contracts the same as that? Dr. Taytor. Probably not. The Cuarrman. I supposed there was an increased price paid to the farmer depending on the percentage of sugar in the beets? Dr. Taytor. That was tried in Wisconsin, and the farmers found a great deal of difficulty in getting a satisfactory test as to the sugar content of the individual crops. And so in that case they went back to paying on the basis of the net weight per ton without regard to the sugar content. The Cuairman. And then an increase of so much per ton as the price of sugar in the market increases? Dr. Taytor. Yes; that is in the contract for this year. Mr. Vorer. When you find a farmer whose cost is excessive in producing cotton, wheat, or some other crop do you go back to him and try to show him what the cause ‘is? Dr. Tayror. That is exactly the idea, through the farm manage- ment and demonstration work, through the States relation service which is cooperating with the office of farm management. The man AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. ‘53 who is in charge of farm management demonstrators has his office on the same floor with mine and is closely connected with the Office of Farm Management, makes it his business to keep in close touch through the county agents and with the farmers throughout the country and to get them to keep accounts themselves. Ulismately this job will be completed when every farmer has been taught to keep his own accounts and see where his difficulties are, but that will take a very great deal of time. Mr. Voter. Do you go back to the individual farmers on whose farms you have kept account of the cost of producing a given crop? Dr. Taytor. We send the result of his figures back to him. The research workers do not make it a special business to go back and talk with each one of those men. That is the demonstration phase of the work. Mr. Vorcr. Have you any knowledge whether the individual farm- ers who produce at too high a cost are visited or written to by some- one and the cause pointed out to them why the cost is too high? Dr. Tartor. The analysis of these results is sent back to each one of those farmers. But when it comes to visiting each one of those farms, our attempt is to get back to them through the farm-manage- ment demonstrators and the county agents, who are the personal contact men. And I wish to say that the special work of the farm- management demonstrators is to stimulate, at the present time and has been for several years,-accounting on the part of the farmers so that they may know what they are doing and in each case to point out to them the way in which they are falling down. It is obvious, however, with several million farmers in the United States, it is only individuals here and there who can be touched by people in the Washington office. But through cooperation with the State organi- zations and the county agents, it is possible to touch more and more of the head men who, in turn, touch their neighbors. Mr. Voict. Say, for instance, in 1918 you found that there were a number of farmers whom it costs 30 cents a pound to produce cotton. Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. Mr. Voier. Do those men who produced that 30-cents-a-pound cot- ton find out through you, or from you, that you have figured out that it cost them 30 cents, and do you tell them where the difficulty is? Dr. Taytor. That is our effort; yes. Of course, I have been with the office only since the 1st of April so I do not know what was done -with regard to these particular men. I wish to say we reworked the material that was in the office, went back to the original records that were taken, in order to get the material in this form. I think it was figured on terms of average in the first instance, instead of showing the range in costs by individuals. : Mr. Hoenn. I know a farmer in my county who produced 50 bales of cotton in 1918; this year the same farmer produced 35 bales. It cost him more to produce 35 bales this year than it did to produce 50 bales last year. ; ; Dr. Taytor. Very probably. Now, with the materials we have col- lected Mr. Heri. The boll weevil is in this section I am talking about. Dr. Taytor. Yes. That is a factor in the cost per unit of produc- tion. 54 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Pecx. I just want to state that, when a study like this is com- pleted, each farmer receives a detailed statement of his own business, with a letter pointing out certain factors that appear to make that cost hs than the cost that his neighbors have. r. Vorer. That is what I am trying to get at. Mr. Pec. Yes; each man gets a statement. Dr. Taytor. He gets it—not simply him own, but the ranges of the others also. Mr. Pecx. The comparison of his farm business with the others. : The Cuairman. And the variation is due to the elements, the cot- ton boll weevil Dr. Taytor. Yes; the cotton boll weevil. The Cuairman. Not altogether to the man himself? Dr. Taytor. No. The Cuarrman. Would you be able to give advice for overcoming difficulties caused by the elements? Dr. Taytor. Advice with regard to the whole problem of growing cotton, of course, is not attempted by the Office of Farm Manage- ment. The Cuairman. In line with the case cited by Mr. Heflin, in my section of the country last year we produced about 20 bushels: of wheat to the acre; this year probably 8 to 10, less than half of what we produced last year. It cost practically as much to produce 8 bushels as it did to produce the 20, and we got just as much for the 8 bushels, per bushel, as we did for the 20 last year. Hence the cost this year 1s much more than it was a year ago. The cotton-boll weevil and all elements enter into it. Dr. Tartor. Yes. Now, the purpose of getting cost figures is to get all the facts of cost and to lay them clearly before our minds in order that we may better judge what todo. : The Cuarrman. I am sorry to add that we have had such attacks for 40 years in my section of the country. We have had the black rust. The object is to know how to deal with it. Dr. Taytor. The Office of Farm Management does not deal with those phases of the problems. Those questions of plant pathology and entomology, etc., are dealt with by the various bureaus having charge of those specific problems. Our problems relate primarily to the questions of farm organization and farm finance and the eco- nomic problems of organization. Even in a given year, with given conditions to meet, some farmers do very much better than others. The Cuarrman. Under the same conditions? Dr. Tartor. Under the same conditions. And the hope is to bring those who are lagging behind up to a higher level and then to enable those who are in the lead to see more clearly how to adjust them- selves to market conditions, labor conditions, and all sorts of condi- ° Hons in order to produce at a lower cost and get a larger margin of rofit. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. How many people are employed in the field—the entire number—in this line of work?> =. Dr. Taytor. I will ask Mr. Peck to answer that question; that is a line of work of which he is in immediate charge. Mr. Peck. Counting the cooperative work of the States where the States contribute 50 per cent of the cost of conducting the investiga- tions, this past year, roughly—— - he ae ia ee oa AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 55 Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. Have you not the exact number? Mr. Pecx. Our maximum has been 80; that is, there were different numbers employed at different times. This work was started in the spring. At one time we had 11 scientific men on the cotton study, and four went from there to the wheat study. There may be three or four weeks on one of those studies where the State men have come out and helped us to take the records; so it is rather hard to say the exact number carried through the season. I would say 30 would be the greatest number at one time employed on all the cost studies we are making. A : an Me VAUBHENN of Michigan. How many are employed in Wash- ington ? Mr. Pxcx. The total number of the whole force in the cost of pro- duction and farm organization section is 58. That counts the scien- tific men, clerks, and stenographers that are on these particular projects. , Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. It takes 58, then, to tabulate the work done by 11 or 30? Mr. Precr. No; the 58 includes all the people who have been em- ployed in these sections. That counts in the scientific men, it counts in these men I have given you as 30 at various times. We have 17 straight clerks and typists, and we have a man in charge of the crop work, a man in charge of the live-stock work, and a man in charge of the farm-power investigations. We have 17 straight clerks who do nothing else but tabulate the field records, and then there are certain times of the year when the men in the field do part of the tabulating and summarizing and preparing the data for publication. Mr. McLavcuurn of Michigan. It takes 58 employees, officers, and so on, in Washington to tabulate the work of 30 in the field ? Mr. Rusey. I understood him to say those 30 were included in the 58. Mr. Pecr. Yes. ; Mr. McLaveuurm of Michigan. I did not get that—— Mr. Rusey. Let us see whether he means that or not? Mr. Pecx. Part of these 30, the 30 employed here the year round, whose whole salaries are paid out of our funds, are included in the 58. They are only in the field part of the time; we do nof. have men in the field the year round. ; Mr. Trxcuer. How many do you have that do not go in the field, who stay here? ; Mr. Prcx. These include the 17 clerks who do not go in the field, and there are perhaps only two or three besides those who do not go in the field. : Mr. Trncuer. Out of the 58 there would be 20 that do not go in the field ? : : Mr. Pec. Yes; I would say that. I believe the number is tabu- lated in the printed report. So ees The CyarrMAn. You are asking for an increase of appropriation. The appropriation for last year was $302,590 and this year you estimate $611,990. Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. : The Crairman. An increase of $309,400. How many people will be employed next year? 56 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Taytor. The major part of that is for extension of the cost of production and farm organization work. The Cuarrman. Will you state just the number to be employed next year while you are on that? : Dr. Taytor, I have in my hand the way in which it is planned to distribute these funds next year. To live stock cost studies, which will include the beef cattle in the Corn Belt, that is the fattening of cattle, some studies on the range, and the sheep and wool studies, $50,000; cotton cost studies, $20,000; wheat cost studies, $20,000; milk cost studies, $25,000; sugar costs, $10,000; fruit costs, $15,000; tobacco costs, $5,000; farm power studies, $50,000. And the detailed cost studies which will be made in this region The Cuairman. How much for farm power ? ; Dr. Tayxor. $50,000. And for the detailed cost accounting, where the farm is of a mixed nature and we can not get at the cost of one separate thing so well, the work we have called detail cost studies, SoU g0e That accounts for $245,000 to be expended in these cost studies. Mr. Anverson. Are you now engaged upon studies on this milk proposition ? : Dr. Taytor. We have no studies in milk, excepting some coopera- tive studies just being started. Mr. Anpvrrson. How about fruit? Dr. Tarzor. The cost of fruit in New York has been studied to some extent this last year. Mr. Anperson. Have you started the farm-power project? Mr. Taytor. The farm-power project has not been started; it is just planned. There was a conference held in Chicago in the fall, and it was urged by all classes interested in the farm-power question that cost studies be made as a basis of comparing relative profitable- ness of using different forms of power. Mr. Anverson. These detailed cost projects are now under way? Dr. Taytor. They are now under way in three States in coopera- tion with the colleges. About 150 farms are being covered by that method at the present time. Those are usually on a 50-50 basis. Mr. Rusey. Do you expect to take up each one of these projects and tell us what you are going to do under each? Dr. Tayxor. I am glad to have questions. Mr. Rusey. I could like very much to have you tell us what you expect to do under the farm-power proposition, whether or not, in connection with that, you are going to take up the question of water power on the farm or just simply motor power ? Dr. Taytor. The major problem is the pulling of machinery— that is, the major thing is to know this, to what extent is it going to pay the farmer to dispose of his horses and get a tractor. That is a thing that millions of dollars are being expended for at the present time, and we want to give the information that will enable this new move to be taken along intelligent lines. Mr, McLaveutin of Michigan. Where you are carrying on these meta lines of work in the States, you have experts in each line, o you! Dr. Taytor. Yes. Of course the same man may be working on one line of costs a part of the time and on another line part of the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 57 time; that is, the detail man. We have one man, for instance, who specializes on the cost of producing these crops which are special crops, like cotton, sugar beets, and so forth, where a method can be used that requires less detail than where you have to get all of the information from the whole farm. And now on the farm power studies the aim will be this, to get enough records from specific farms to show the kind of power that is needed at different times of the year, what percentage of the power is used in drawing wagons, what percentage in harrowing, cultivating corn, plowing, or disking, and at what time of the year is this demanded. Then our aim is to see how much of this can be undertaken by a tractor, for instance, rather than by horses; which it is physically possible to do. Some of this work can be done by horses and not well by tractors; other parts of the work can be done by tractors. Then if we find, for instance, a part of the work can be done by tractors a certain part of the year and all of the horses have to be kept in order to provide power at another time of the year, so that the farmer can not reduce the number of horses by keeping a tractor, it is obvious the total cost of power on the farm would be increased by getting a tractor. The object is to make such a study as will show how the power required on the farm can be secured at a reduced cost. Mr. Trncuer. Have you had any- appropriation before for the farm power project? Dr. Taytor. There has been no appropriation for farm power. Mr. Tincner. Don’t you think a good safe way would be for the Department of Agriculture to simply issue a statement to the farmers that the best power so far, the most reliable and durable power, is the mule, and then let the machine companies that are pushing trac- tors advance their interests (and they will do that quick enough, or too quick in most instances); for us just to stand for the mule and save this $50,000 until there have been further developments ? Dr. Tayzor. Is it not entirely probable that by saving that $50,000 we are asking for farm power studies you will leave it entirely to the manufacturers of tractors who have but one interest (and that is to sell their tractors), to give the information to the farmer, in- stead of the department providing it for the farmer? Mr. Trxcuer. My idea was to take a definite stand, without spend- ing $50,000, and to advise the farmer to stick to the mule and just save $50,000; say to him “ You stick to your mule,” and then let them press their claim. We can do that without spending any money. . De Taytor. Then, in turn, the manufacturers will say we have made the statement without any investigation whatever, and they will be in a position ai Mr. Trncuer. You tell them you have made an investigation, that you talked to one of the members of the Committee on griculture who knew something about it, and he was willing to take the re- sponsibility of advising them to stick to the mule and save money. [ Laughter. ] . - Mr. Rusey. You might state, in that connection, that the gentle- man had talked with Mr. Tincher of Kansas. [Laughter.] . Dr. Taytor. I have no doubt but that the gentleman knows exactly what to do on his own farm—— 58 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rusery. We from Missouri, of course, are with the mule. Av the same time we realize that a great deal of this work can be done better by tractor power in that State than it can be done by the mule. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. In how many cases do you use the same man for different kinds of work? You have a wheat investiga- tion and a feeding investigation, and a beef investigation—— Dr. Taytor. I will ask Mr. Peck to answer that question, since he is in immediate charge. Mr. Peck. We are attempting to build up a corps of experts who can meet various problems. I do not care to have a man just on wheat and one on cotton and one on cattle and one on hogs, because it is not conductive to efficiency. The same man may be the cotton man this year, and then part of the time he may be on wheai, and also on sugar beets. Mr. McLavenun of Michigan. Those sections of the cvuntry where those three products are raised are widely separated. Mr. Prcx. Yes. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. A man can not be doing all those things at the same time. Mr. Peck. Exactly. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. But in a_beet-producing State, a wheat-growing State, and a corn-growing State those activities are all carried on at the same time by the same farmer. Mr. Prcx. In the survey method we have to visit the farm imme- diately after the end of the year to take the previous year’s record; that is under the survey method. In the detailed accounting method we have to have a man in the State all the time to visit those farms regularly. That is the difference. But one can make a wheat study by the survey method and spend two or three months making that study. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. Is that man while engaged those two or three months doing anything else? Mr. Pecr. No; he gets the cost of growing wheat and its relation to the whole farm business on the wheat farm; that is all he does. Mr. McLavueuurn of Michigan. And somebody else gets the data on the same farm for the production of beets? Mr. Pecx. No; on the special crops we pick out farms that are specializing on that product. On the big wheat farms we do not study beef, for example. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Beef, however, is produced in con- nected with the corn farms? : Mr. Prcx. Yes; perhaps as a secondary consideration to the corn production. That is another proposition. If we were to study corn, we probably could combine the studies very well; that is, the man who visited the farm right along on the beef could get the facts as to corn. But these special crops like sugar beets, cotton, and wheat are studied on farms that specialize; that have a larger percentage of their receipts from that crop than any other enterprise. | ‘ My Lesuer. You get the data from the farmer—the man on that arm? ‘ Mr. Pecx. Yes. We take the same man, as I say, who makes the cotton study during three months of the period and send him imme- diately from cotton to wheat to take the wheat records from the wheat farmers. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 59 Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. There are many farms, in the aggregate a very large number, that are specializing in wheat? Mr. Peck. Yes, Mr. McLaveuttin of Michigan. But, unfortunately, a larger num- ber are engaged in general farming, growing wheat, growing corn, CUE stock, and engaged to a more or less extent in producing milk. Mr. Pecx. Yes. Mr. McLaventr of Michigan. Do you have different men for those different lines of study ? Mr. Prox. For the mixed types of farming you mention, that is, where we establish our cost-accounting studies, or cost-accounting routes, In cooperation with the State, we have a man who lives entirely with the farmers for the entire year and keeps the detail records on all the various products. That is the distinction to be made between the survey and the detailed cost-accounting method of investigation. Detailed cost accounting is where we have the re- ports kept by the farmer and the statistician, or route man, the year round. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. I am very glad you have found a man who can do two things. The difficulty hitherto has been that we have had to have an expert for each particular line of work. as Peck. That would be a mistake in our line of investigational work. Mr. Jacoway. Have you men in the department who are experts on the growing and culture of wheat and beets and on cotton also? Mr. Pecx. Yes; in the separate bureaus we have men on the cul- tural growing of those crops. Mr. Jacoway. Does any one man in your department understand all of those different items? Mr. Pecx. I would not want to say : Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. This man does not instruct as to how to best grow those crops; he just takes the actual cost of pro- duction, regardless of how the work was done; he ascertains how much it costs. Mr. Peck. Ours is just the accounting work. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. Then they have another man to teach the farmer how to grow corn, and another man to teach him how to grow potatoes, and another man to teach him how to grow wheat; but no one of your men can do two kinds of work? The Cuarrman. Have you in mind investigating and ascertaining the relative merit of every make of tractor so as to advise what tractor to buy by testing out each make? Dr. Tayzor. One idea is not to make a special study with regard to each tractor, but to study the power demands of the farm at the different times of the year for different kinds of work, to see to what extent a tractor that operates successfully could displace horse labor. And then the next question is to find how much more or less it costs to perform that work by the tractor or by the additional horses that would have to be kept. That is the specific advantages that we see in order that we may answer the question under what conditions will it pay a farmer to get a tractor, if he can get a good one and knows how to operate it. 60 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. But, in your opinion, is there not as much vari- ation in the value of the tractor as there is in the value of the crop? Dr. Taytor. Exactly. The Cuarrman. One type may last 30 days and another may last for a season? ; , Dr. Tayxor. It is not our intention to make a study of the different types of construction of tractors. | : The Cuarrman. What value will the information be unless you can advise as to what tractors will do? . Dr. Tayxor. There are other sections of the Department of Agri- culture that deal with the tractor from the standpoint of construction. The Cuamman. I am afraid we would be charged with duplicating this line of work. What I want to get at is the line of study you ursue, . Dr. Taytor. It is the cost aspect of it, the way it fits in to the whole farm organization, that we expect to deal with. What we pro- pose to do under this project will not duplicate in any way the work of any other branch of the department. : The Cuarrman. Have you made any investigation as to the ad- visability of substituting tractors for the mule, as suggested by Mr. Tincher # . Dr. Taytor. The Department of Agriculture has not carried on any investigations in that line. The Cuarrman. I understood investigations were made and re- ports issued. Dr.:Tayzor. From the detail cost studies that have been made in Wisconsin, Illinois, and Iowa through a series of years past (a few detail cost accounts have been kept on a few farms), it is possible at the present time to analyze the labor demands, because they kept the demand for horse labor each day in the year right through and showed what those horses were doing, and then we are able to answer the question, “ Can that work be done by a tractor?” And by study- ing those reports we got a notion of the general way in which the matter can be studied if we had the up-to-date facts. But none of those studies at the present time, the ones that were made in the past, answer the question, nor were they intended-to answer the question, me regard to the relative cost of power by the tractor and by the orse. Mr. Tincuer. Seriously speaking, do you not think it would be a safe policy for the Department of Agriculture to advise against the purchase of tractors? Don’t you think there are 10 tractors pur- chased where there ought to be 1, and don’t you know and realize that the trouble the farmer is having now is paying his tractor bills? That is the situation not only in one section of the country, but in all the United States. Dr. Taytor. Our desire is to be open-minded on this question and to make it our business to get the facts and lay them before the public seu than to go into the investigation with our conclusions already rawn. ‘ The Crairman. Is it not a settled fact that the tractor is im- practicable on the small farm, although it may be practicable to use it on the larger farm? : ‘ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 61 Dr. Taytor. I think such statements have been issued by different agricultural colleges that would indicate that the farm must have magnitude enough to give scope for the tractor. The CHatrman. There can be no question about that. Dr. Taytor. Yes; there can be no question about that. The Cuairman. You can not farm with a tractor alone. You must have horses with the tractor; and if one has a small farm that can be operated with. two or four horses, it would be useless to go to the expense of buying a tractor and allowing the horses to remain idle, would it not? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. Jacoway. Doctor, does your statement show how many acres were planted in cotton in the South last year? Dr. Tayzor. The Office of Farm Management collects no material on that point, and that is not presented here. Mr. Jacoway. You can get that, can you not? Dr. Taytor. From the Bureau of Crop Estimates; yes. Mr. Jacoway. If I remember correctly, it was about 50,000,000 acres. Does your testimony show how many bales of cotton were raised from 50,000,000 acres? Dr. Taytor. No, sir. Mr. Harrison. Information of that sort will come from the Bu- reau of Crop Estimates. Mr. Canpvter. This division does not do that kind of work. Mr. Jacoway. Where a farmer has four children who help him to raise his cotton, do you take into consideration the labor of the chil- dren and the wife in estimating the overhead to produce a pound of cotton! ~ Dr. Taytor. Oh, yes; and we enter it in at what it would have cost to have hired that labor done. Mr. Jacoway. Do you put in the living expenses? Dr. Taytor. Whatever this labor would have cost if it had been hired, which would include living expenses. The Cuarrman. Your investigation is carried along on the same lines as it was carried on in Dane County, with, I believe, 60 farmers? Dr. Tartor. Yes. The Cuairman. Was that work in Wisconsin carried on by you? Dr. Taytor. Yes; that was under my direction. The Cuairman. It was conducted along the same line? Dr. Tarxor. Yes, sir. The Cuamman. You propose to continue along the same line? Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How much of this variation of cost is due to poor management and the things that you hope to overcome or advise against ? Dr. Tayzor. That is a question it is impossible to answer. But when you have in a given community given conditions—that is, the weather conditions are the same and the animal pests and the plant diseases are the same on both farms—and you find a wide difference of cost, I would be disposed to credit most of the difference in cost to the difference in the man, not all due to the management of the Particular year but through a series of years. Good farming is 62 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. cumulative. A good farmer is ever bringing his farm to a higher standard of culture, so that his crops are ever better and his live stock is ever better, so that he is gradually coming to this higher plane. A man who is on the lower plane can not jump at once to the higher plane, but we can point him the direction to take in order to gradu- ally rise to that higher plane. . The Cxairman. I think it would be of great service to furnish advice as to the methods of farming; but, of course, as to these other matters, as to the elements, that would be impossible. Dr. Taytor. We would not attempt to give advice as to that. The Cuarrman. Do you make a study of the soil? Dr. Tayzor. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Would you make suggestions as to how to treat the soil? Dr. Taytor. No, sir; we would leave that to the specialists on the roblems of the soil. Our special problem is that of adjusting the arm organization and farm management in such a manner as to re- duce costs and increase profits. The Cuarrman. You would suggest the use of fertilizer, would you not? Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. The amount to be used, the heavy spread or the light spread, and what kind to use? Dr. Taytor. In the first instance, I would say that that is a study for the specialist on soils rather than the Office of Farm Manage- ment, although where men are using fertilizer in different ways we get at the difference in cost per unit of product resulting from those frequent applications of fertilizer, but any special study as to the relative amount of fertilizer, etc., is primarily a question for the Bureau of Plant Industry and the Bureau of Soils to make. Mr. Canpter. The object of your work, as I understand it, is to determine the cost of management on the farm, to find where the difficulty is and where the losses occur and advise the farmer in reference to that, so as to remove as far as possible all the difficulties and get him as near perfection as possible in the management of the er in order that he may secure the greatest results from the work e does. Dr. Taytor. Exactly. In the first place, what crops to grow and the proportions between the different crops. If, for instance, you have corn, oats, and clover, in order that you may have a continuous demand for labor—— The Cuairman. You can give the results for one year, but next year it may depend upon the elements. Suppose you should find that an oat crop was more profitable than corn this year, you would not advise the farmer to plant oats next year just on the strength of that? Dr. Taytor. Three crops like corn, qats, and clover fit together and require labor at different times of the year. You can start in with seeding oats and put in your oat crop, and then put in your corn crop and cultivate it, harvest your oats, and then comes the corn harvest, so that you have work throughout the year. Even if your oats are not as profitable as your corn, the thing you want to know is whether or not there is anything you can put in the place of oats that will pay better. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 63 In the State of Wisconsin we have the choice between oats, barley, and spring wheat, and we want to know which of those three to grow. What we have found out practically is that one year and another we practically eliminate wheat, but we do not eliminate oats or barley. We put oats on our lighter land and barley on our righer land, be- cause oats go down so badly on the richer land, and in that way the barley pays better on the richer land and oats pays better on the poorer land, so we combine the two and produce about the same acreage of the two as we would of either one if one paid better than the other. ; In other words, it is a problem to get those facts which enable us to fit the parts of a farm work together in right balance. The Cxairman. But the price of barley changes. Barley may be worth $2 one year and $1 the next year. I have often sold barley for less than 50 cents. : Dr. Taytor. That is entirely true, that in any given year we lay our plans for the year on the basis of what we think will probably be the price. The Cuarrman. But it is based on the yield and does not take int« consideration the fluctuation in price? Dr. Taytor. What the probable price will be, and keeping in mind what the probable yield will be as a basis for comparing the relative profit on oats and barley, for instance. On one particular piece of land I have in mind, for instance, I could not hope for more than 25 or 80 bushels of barley to the acre, whereas I might hope for twice the production in bushels of oats. On that particular piece I put in oats with the price in mind that I will probably get. On the other piece of land, if I put it in oats I would expect the oats to go down and not expect it to fill. I would have a great. deal of difficulty in harvesting it, and my operating expense would run high, and my yield would be down, whereas with barley, the expense would be down and the yield higher, and at the price barley would probably pay better. Mr. Hurcninson. Do you work with the farm agent? Is that a part of the farm agent’s work or activity ? .Dr. Taytor. The county agent, yes; and also our office man in charge of farm management demonstrators, through whom we keep in touch with the farm management demonstrator, who is in touch with the county agents, which is one of the routes through which we attempt to get the results of this research work out to the farmer. The Cuarrman. I take it they could assist you in research work also, as far as the bookkeeping and some of the other things. Some things could be done by the county agent, could they not? ’ Dr. Taytor. They stimulate the farmers in keeping records, but, of course, they are very busy men. Through that method all farm- ers are stimulated in keeping records, and this helps the research men to get specific results when they go out for them. The Cuarrman. It is largely a matter of bookkeeping, is it not? Dr. Taytor. Largely a matter of keeping the records of what is done, and what it costs to do it. The Cuarrman. What would you say to the dairyman that would be of value to him? ; Dr. Taynor. On a dairy farm the farmer is probably producing his feeds largely, is he not, and where detailed records are kept on a 64 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. dairy farm, we keep the records of the cost of different kinds of feeds, so he knows whether it pays better to produce his concen- trates or buy his concentrates, which is one thing he wants to know. Another thing is in regard to the method of handling his cows, whether he should handle them in the barn the year around, or run them on pasture a part of the year and in the barn a part of the year, Of course, the amount of labor involved in keeping cattle in the barn the year around and feeding them silage and hay is very much greater than to keep them on the pasture. The yields may be higher, taking the summer through, but his costs are greater. What we want to do is to get at those elements of cost, so he can figure on these two different methods of work and know how much more his profit is going to be if he uses one method or the other, so he can decide what to do. Accounting is of value as it points toward what to do in the future. The Cuatrman. You speak of labor. You have reference to: milking machines in the dairies? Dr. Taytor. I have reference to the huaan labor, the power re- quired in the fields, the horsepower, etc., and also the question, of course, of the relative cost of getting this work done by power methods and by hand methods, and, of course, the problem of the—— Mr. Hutcurnson. It is not your intention to keep a man on the place all the time? Your officer is going to depend largely on the farmer ? : Dr. Tayzor. We will depend largely on the farmer. We will have one man who will look after, say, 25 farms, and he will con- tinually visit these farms and help them to keep these records up in detail so that they can be tabulated, and we will get the results from them. Mr. Trncuer. Would it be practical to get the records from the different county agents? Dr. Taytor. No; because these county agents are so busy doing various other work that they have not the time to do it. Mr. Tincuer. That is the very point we are getting at. I talked with several county agents while I was away, and they were not overbusy, most of them. A great many of them would be glad to furnish the reports, if you went to them. Dr. Tayxor. We can give plenty of work to any of them who are not busy and would be glad to get their cooperation. May I just give a few words regarding the remainder of my state- ment on this question of farm financial relations? The Cuairman. Would you prefer to finish your statement and have questions asked later? Dr. Tayzor. If that is satisfactory; it is all the same to me. With regard to farm financial relations, the work that is being done this year relates primarily to insurance, farmers’ insurance companies. There is one man and two or three clerks who have been working on that during the year. The supervision of this work was trans- ferred to the office of Farm Management from the Bureau of Markets by the Secretary at the beginning of the fiscal year. In addition to that, the financial problem of farmers, telephone companies and the financial problem of farm credit has come up, and it is desired to give special attention to the question of the forms of farm credit, and especially personal credit. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL, 65 _ You will remember when that matter came before the Congres- sional committee last year, the question was raised as to whether or not this work should be done by the Federal Farm Loan Board in- stead of the Department of Agriculture, and no appropriations were made for the current year for the study of forms of credit. As a matter of fact, however, the Federal Farm Loan Board does not contemplate investigations in this field, and for that reason we woud like to devote some attention to farm credit in our studies during the coming year. Farm credit is especially closely connected with problems of farm crpanicntien on the one hand and the problem of farm tenure on the other. , Anticipating the probable raising of the question of whether or not the Farm Loan Board wished to do work in this field, the Secre- tary, at my suggestion, addressed a letter to Mr. Norris, and received the following reply: TREASURY DEPARTMENT, FEeperaL Farm Loan BuREAU, Washington, November 29, 1919. Hon. D. F. Houston, Secretary of Agriculture. My Dear Mr. SEcRETARY: I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 25th instant in reference to the investigation of the general subject of rural eredits. I have discussed the matter with my colleagues, and we are unani- mously of the opinion that studies on this subject should be conducted by the Department of Agriculture rather than by this board. We have no appropria- tion available for the purpose, and if we were to undertake the work it would be necessary for us to build up an organization of experts which would, in a measure, duplicate the work of the Office of Farm Management. I presume that with this expression of opinion from this board you will in- clude in your estimates for the fiscal year 1921 the provision of funds for the prosecution of the farm finance project and will be in a position to assure a congressional committee that this appropriation will not duplicate any work which is being done or is to be done by this board. If you think it desirable, however, that there should be any further conference between us, I need not assure you that we are at your service at any time. I am, Very truly, yours, Gro. W. Norris, Farm Loan Commissioner. Mr. Jacoway. Have you made any investigation as to whether or not the individual farmer is satisfied with the Farm Loan Board system of getting money from the Federal Government? Dr. Taytor. I have not. Mr. Jacoway. I understand that they are complaining of the red tape they have got to go through with. They state that they have to answer 266 questions, first, last, and all the time, from the time they make application up until they get the money. Have you had any discussion of that with the farmers in your investigations? Dr. Taytor. As I say, we have had no funds for investigating the credit question this year, but we wish especially to investigate the farm credit question from the standpoint of getting credit suited to the needs of the farmer. . Mr. Anverson. What is the character of the work which you do on cooperative insurance? Dr. Taytor. In cooperative insurance a study of the different forms of farmers’ cooperative insurance companies has been made. Some of the insurance companies represent very small areas; others 164315—20—5 66 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. represent larger areas, and Mr. Valgren, who is in charge of this work, has through a series of years been making a very careful study of the success of the different types of cooperative insurance com- panies, and he has also studied their methods of keeping records and the type of organization, so he is in position at the present moment to give valuable advice to the companies. : Mr. McLaucuuin of Michigan. Advice to the companies? Dr. Taytor. Yes; the cooperative companies, these farmers’ com- panies. Sometimes they are county organizations, sometimes they are just township organizations, and sometimes two or three town- ships in a mutual fire insurance company, for instance, and he is able to give them advice that is very helpful in geting them organized on the proper basis. Only a small amount of the fund has been put into that, but the letters we have received from the different parts of the country with regard to the value of the service that has been rendered in connection with improving these cooperative insurance sompanies are very reassuring. On the question of farm labor Mr. Hurcuison. Before you leave the banks, I understood you to say you wanted to investigate the matter of loan credits to the farmers? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. Hutcutson. Do you think the department here in Washing- ton can tell better than the local bankers or local people around whether a man is entitled to credit or not? Dr. Tayror. No. I wish to state that we believe the local people are the ones who can answer that question, but let us take a specific example. Let us take a little town down in Texas at Red Springs. Each one of the individual farmers around there, as an individual, perhaps was not worthy of credit, and the bankers up at the county seat would have found it entirely too expensive to have looked up each one of those farmers and to have arranged to give him credit, but when the farmers at Red Springs organized into a group in a credit association, with all the resources behind any particular loan they made, all the bank had to do was to look up the credit of this whole group and then loan the money in a large amount at a time to this association, which in turn did the loaning of this money to the individuals. In other words, a local cooperative credit associa- tion was what was needed as the go-between between these little individual farmers, some of whom wanted to borrow $50, let us say, and the bank at the county seat which had the money to lend. Prior to this time it had been done in this way: The banker had made the loan to the storekeeper who, in turn, had made advances or sold on time to these farmers at prices which corresponded to time prices, of course. Instead of lending him the money under the new organization, the money goes to the association, and the associa- tion members are able then to buy for cash and buy to so much bet- ter advantage. The bank has the same work in either case, lend- ing the same amount of money, let us say, and the farmers are very much better off as a result of the cooperative credit association. In North Carolina credit associations of this kind have been de- veloped. There is a great need of improving this aspect of farm credit. It is not a matter of taking business away from the banks. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 67 It is a matter of better organizing the farmers for getting what they need from the banks. Mr. Anperson. What did you have to do, or what did your or- ganization have to do, with the creation of these credit associations ? Dr. Taytor. In this particular Red Springs case it happened that I was personally acquainted with the man who was partly on pay of the Department of Agriculture, and partly from the State of Texas, in connection with the extension work. He was the man who helped ° these people organize and showed them how to do it. Organizations of this kind are not new. They exist in many countries. Our first work is to study the different ways in which the farmers may organize to get this credit, to see how these different forms are adapted to different regions with different kinds of farming, the amount of credit that is needed in the different districts, and the form of credit needed is very different in the dairy district fron that needed in the cotton district, for instance, and we propose to study the needs from the standpoint of better farming, that is what are the needs and just how the farmers can organize to get in touch with the bank and the credit system that exists. It is not expected that an entirely new credit system for the United States shall be organized to take care of the farmers. It is a question of how the farmers can articulate with the credit system that exists in such a way as to get funds when they need them, in order to in- crease the effectiveness of agriculture. Referring again to the brief I have put into your hands I wish to call your attention to the studies in history and geography, the pur- pose of which is to bring together the evidence from the long time point vf view. and from the broader territorial point of view, that gives a better balance to our judgments in regard to the proper types of farming. Here you will find some maps that illustrate what I have in mind. For instance, the shift in the wheat production, and if you will look at the charts you will find where wheat was produced in 1840, and just below you will find where wheat was produced in 1870. You find that by 1870 the wheat production in the Middle West had developed to very considerably proportions. On the other hand, by 1910, the area in Wisconsin, northern Illinois, and Iowa that was important in 1870 had ceased to be a producing area. In other words, these changes in production are going on. In any one year we do not know about it, but all those who are studying these aspects from,the standpoint of the economic changes that bring them to pass, can give very important additional advice that can not be gotten by the cost-study method. We are making the study not only from the standpoint of what is going on now, but what has been going on through a series of years, for instance, what changes have taken place in the State of Wisconsin, which used to be a wheat country. Now it is a dairy country. What are the forces that have brought that about? We contemplate in that particular case a studv in detail. There was a special bulletin published in Wisconsin on that particular point. On the other page of these charts is given the price of wheat through a long series of years, from 1825 up to the present time. Notice the shifting from. year to year in the wheat price. Notice the very high price after the Civil War, and then note the gradual 68 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. fall in the wheat price during the series of years after the war, until you get to the low level of 1895. Then, in connection with that, note the great expansion in wheat production, and notice that Kansas, Nebraska, and the Dakotas, and al] of western Minnesota came in and threw their great quantity of wheat into the market, and how that tended to sag the price. : ces The point I wish to make is simply that by studies of this kind we can better understand what the trends are, and understanding the trend, we are in a better position to give advice with regard to readjustment in farming to fit new conditions. : . In regard to the subject of land economics, that is a question of land tenure. The Cuarmay. In regard to this shifting, that was due last year to the Government advising people in our section, and other sections, to grow wheat, much to our regret. It cost the farmers millions of dollars, and it decreased the food supply, instead of increasing it. Dr. Taytor. You could have produced more of the crops which your experience, through a series of years, had shown you paid best on your farm ? The Cuarrman. Yes; we would have produced more oats, barley, and corn, more than enough to make up the supply of wheat; but that has nothing to do with your work. : ; Dr. Taytor. The next subject that we wish to give special atten- tion to is that of land tenure, that is the question of land ownership and tenancy. What is the trend? Are more and more farms going into the hands of tenants? What are the methods that can be used to make it easier for tenants to become owners, and then, to the extent that they do remain tenants, that is for a series of years, at least, while they are getting enough money with which to make the first payment on a farm, how can the relations between the landlord and tenant be adjusted in such a way as to guarantee better farming and fairness between the landlord and tenant? Those are questions that are receiving some attention at the present time. Then there is also the question of land settlement. In a number of States where new land is being settled there are various methods of. settlement, some of which are very much more satisfactory than others, and those are being studied with a view to improving the methods of getting farms. This goes right along with the problem of showing the young man how he can hope through the years to become an independent farmer, owning the farm which he operates, which we believe is very essential if he is to be contented as a - farmer. Mr. Anpverson. Before you leave this. land economics business, I notice in the estimate here that you have five subdivisions, the first of which is land resources. What are you going to do about that? Dr. Taytor. Land resources is the question of studying the re- sources of the country from the standpoint of economic utilization. All of the land in the United States is not in farms,.and it should not all be in farms. Of the land that is not in farms, which should be brought in and which should not is a very important question from the economic point of view. Mr. Anvzrson. That is going to regulate itself under ordinary economic processes. You can not regulate that by governmental regulation. - AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 69 Dr. Taytor. What we want to do is to study the matter and clarify thought on that subject in such a way that action may be more in- telligent. , Mr. Anperson. How are you going to get this information in the -first instance, beginning at the beginning? Dr. Taytor. Information in regard to land ? Mr. Anperson. Yes. Dr. Taytor. A very great deal of information is available at dif- ferent points in the various services at the present time. Mr. Awprrson. There may be a whole lot of it made available after this next census is taken. Dr. Taxytor. Yes. Mr. Anverson. Why not postpone this proposition until we get that information? Dr. Taytor. The idea is this: The census does not show much about what is going on on land not. in farms. Let us take the ex- ample of what has happened on lands that are now in farms and some people believe should not be in farms. Take the so-called wheat - lands of eastern Montana. Justa few years ago, as you will remem- ber, the real estate agents made a big move toward selling lands, which were good grazing lands, to people who knew nothing about those lands, as wheat lands. Their method was to advise them they could buy the land and sell it at a higher price, and they unloaded it on a great number of people. As you know, people started out in that country and tried to grow wheat on that land. It was grazing land, but they plowed it up and put it in wheat, and, as you know, for three years the crops have been a failure. A very great deal of damage has been done to the people of the United States, not only to individuals who went out and lost all they had, but also to the people of the country, from the standpoint of the price of beef, because a large part of the land which would be good grazing land is not producing anything because production was mis- directed. The idea is that the different forces in the Government. service are gathering various materials which should be correlated and appraised from an economic standpoint in order that this move- ment toward new land may be more intelligently carried on. That, however, is only one of the aspects of the land economic studies. Mr. Anverson. If you are going to chase up all these land specu- lators and tell the people that what we are trying to sell them as wheat land is not good land for wheat, you have got a considerable job on your hands. Dr. Taytor. We will perhaps not chase the speculators, but look _ up the land and publish information and try to get it in the hands of the people who otherwise would be mislead by the speculator. Mr. Anpverson. Now, tell us what you are going to do about land values. Preliminary to this question I want to say this: A good deal of this work is new. The ultimate cost of this thing is going to de- pend very largely upon its scope at the beginning. We are up against what I conceive to be a period of economy in Government ex- penditures, and consequently we must exercise such care as we are able to with a view to see that we do not enter upon activities that are going to cost a great deal of money and which are not going to result in economic advantages corresponding to the cost. Conse- quently it is very important that the committee should understand 70 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. as nearly as possible the scope of these various activities which you are proposing. That is the reason that I am making these inquiries. Dr. Taytor. So far as the land economic studies are concerned, the major attention will be given to the problems of the relations between landlord and tenant, and the problems relating to the ac- quisition of land on the part of young men who perhaps start in as hired men, and become tenant farmers with the hope of becoming owners. If they can look ahead to being owners, they may be happy to go through these preliminary stages while they are earning money to make a part payment on a farm. : If the outlook is not promising, they will probably look to some other line of activity; so I say that is the thing that is especially im- portant in maintaining upon the land the right class of people. Turning back to the question of variation in cost, the cost of pro- ducing farm products in the future is going to depend more largely upon the quality of the men upon the farms than any other one thing, and I should say that the hope of owning a-farm is the thing that is outstanding in connection with the young man who is figuring ue remaining on a farm. It is one, at least, of the outstanding things. With regard to the question of land values, this last summer, when the land boom came on in the heart of Corn Belt, we at once pro- ceeded to gather information in regard to what had actually hap- ened there. That information will be ready for publication in a -few weeks now. If you are interested, the information that we got covering that matter was of two forms. First, we visited a large number of counties and got over 1,000 cases of land transfers, that is each farm is a case, whether transferred once, twice, or eight times, and then we wanted to know how much these farms increased in price be- tween spring and fall, and we found it running up into very large sums, up to $125 and more an acre, and then we wanted to know who got the money as between the price that these farms there sold for at first, and the price later, and found that about half of it went to outside speculators, men who were stimulating land transfers, and we found that in most cases these transfers were made on a very nar- row margin. When a speculator comes in and buys a farm he pays only $1,000 down, in the first place, and then before March 1 trans- fers it to another and another, each one taking a margin out of it, and some farmer holds it at the end at a price appreciably above the price of land last spring, and if it is held with the idea of farming and paying interest on the new high valuation, he has a burden much larger’ than he would have had the year before. What we tried to do then at the same time was to get the facts. It. happened that the Iowa College of Agriculture had surveyed a large number of farms in 1914, so that they knew just what was happening on these farms in 1914. We arranged in cooperation with the college to go back to these same farms and find what had ‘happened in 1918, in comparison with 1914; that is, how. much more was the earning power of these farms in 1918, as a basis of increased -land values, and the increase will show how much interest these farmers could pay on the new price and still get wages for them- selves, and I can assure you in advance that the rate of interest they AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 71 can pay upon these high prices of this last summer will be a very low rate. Mr. Anverson. That is all very interesting, but just what are you going to do with it? What economic advantage is coming from the gathering of this information? Dr. Taytor. We expect these facts to be published so that if a land boom starts next spring we will have the facts in regard to the situation that can be put in the hands of the people so that they can act intelligently, and we believe it is very unwise for a young man, who is a tenant, to buy at the very extraordinary high prices which are based on the high price of hogs, and the high price of corn, with the expectation of paying that debt through a long series of years, when the danger is, whether we like it or not, that the price levels will be lowered, and the burden will be more than he can carry, and he will go to the wall, and bring on an agricultural depression. In other words, it is closely related to the whole problem of land ownership on-the part of men who till the soil. Mr. Jacoway. I think the statistics to-day show that there are more tenants in the United States than there are farm owners? Dr. Taytor. The statistics for 1910 are the last statistics we have. Mr. Jacoway. Do you know anything about it? Is that true? Dr. Taytor. About 37 per cent of the farmers were tenants in 1910, and about 62 per cent of the farmers owned land; about 52 per cent owned all of the land they cultivated, and then there was approxi- mately 10 per cent that owned a part of the land they cultivated and rented some land from a neighbor, and then there was about 1 per cent of managers. _ Mr. Jacoway. The information I got is that there were 51 per cent tenants and 41 per cent land owners. That is erroneous, is it? Dr. Taytor. That may be perfectly correct for some districts or some county or some particular State. In Illinois the percentage of tenancy runs above 50 in certain counties. In certain other regions in the southern part of the United States the percentage-of tenancy runs very high. On the other hand, in States like Wisconsin, the per- centage of tenancy is only about 14, but that does not mean that is true for the whole State. In the southern part of the State it is 39 or 40 per cent in some counties, and in the northern part of the State, where there is cheap land, little or no tenancy at all. Mr. Jacoway. In my judgment that is one of the most lamentable things in this country—the way the tenant class is increasing. Dr. Taytor. That is one of the problems we want to give very special attention to, and our study of land values has a very close relation to the same subject. ; Mr. AnpErson. What is contemplated now under your fifth sub- division—land policies ? Dr. Tayxor. Under land policies the idea is to furnish such in- formation as will form the basis of better land policies in regard to land settlement, let us say, in regard to the utilization of new land. We want to furnish the basis. We do not want to be advocating or promoting the introduction of new legislation, but you take in the State of Illinois at the present time, the question of land policy is be- fore the legislature, or was before the legislature last winter, and there was a commission appointed for the purpose of getting together 72 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. information which will be the basis of intelligent action in that State, where tenancy has come to be such a dominant factor and where everybody believes it is a menace to the agriculture of the State. _ Our notion is that we should be able to gather the facts that will form the basis of intelligent action in regard to what to do in order to improve that situation. The State will establish some policy in this regard. : Mr. McLavucutiin of Michigan. The more prosperous the section of the country, the more tenants; is not that true? : Dr. Taytor. In the sections of high land values there is more tenancy at the present time, as a rule, than on cheap land. Mr, McLaveuttn of Michigan. The farmer who has become very prosperous does not want to continue to follow the plow and do the work, and he does not have to, and he can rent and live in ease and comfort. It is a pretty hard question to handle, it would seem to me. Mr. Trncuer. A lot of the tenants on those farms are sons of the owners. Dr. Taxror. With regard to the farm-life studies, the purpose there is to get at the basic facts which enable us to understand what are the various reasons for farmers leaving the farm, instead of look- ing upon country life and farming as a satisfactory life throughout their lives. Studies have been made of a careful scientific character on this subject, which tend to show that in the country, as a rule, many of those conveniences and those forms of organized social life do not exist which would, if present, tend to make the farmer look ahead with satisfaction to spending his whole life in the country. Mr. Jacoway. Do you not think the building of good roads, a com- prehensive marketing system, and cheap money will make farm life attractive? Do you not think that is the solution, in the main, for making farm life attractive? Dr. Taytor. The country-life side of it is a very important side—- transportation, etc.; and, in addition to that, it is desirable and nec- essary that the farmer have his contacts. In country life the indi- vidual is isolated and needs to be organized into groups. Mr. Jacoway. Good roads will bring that about. Dr. Taytor. They will help. At the present time you will find a group around a certain locality who are especially favored and are getting the advantages of schooling, etc., whereas those outside of certain circles are not getting those advantages. I just happen to have a chart here of Dane County, Wis., which shows that inside of the circles they have railroads and schools, and those out about so far from these centers seem to take advantage of the schools, but outside of those circles they are not getting high-school advantages. In other words, the farther away from these centers of life, the less likely the farmers are to have the contacts that makes the life satisfactory. The appropriation is asked for carrying on these studies from the standpoint of making the farm life more attractive. Mr. Anpvrerson. Have you got a statement showing how these proposed expenditures are subdivided ? Dr. Taytor. Yes. Mr. Anperson. Among these different projects? You stated you would put it in the record. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 73 Dr. Taytor. It is already in the record. The Cuarrman. In connection with good roads, I find on page 5 of the report of the committee appointed by the Secretary ag Agri- culture to consider the subject of farm life ae language: If paved streets are desirable and necessary in the city, roads in the country which can be used both winter and summer for the transportation of farm products and the easy and convenient movement of the people between country and town are equally necessary and should be provided. ; Are we to understand that the Government is committing itself to the building of paved roads in the country ? Dr. Taxtor. That is a question for Congress and the Bureau of Public Roads. The Cuairman, It is the recommendation of this commission. Dr. Tayxor. The idea is this: In Walworth County, Wis., Dr. Galpin made a special study of each farmer to see what his con- tacts were, etc., and he showed, for instance, that those who lived within these black areas [pointing to a map] had high-school advan- tages, and those outside of those black areas were not using the high schools. Of course, the question of roads is very important. If you have better roads, you can go farther. The Cxarrman. This statement is very extraordinary—“ are equally necessary and should be provided.” In the city 100 vehicles pass over a mile of road to every -1 vehicle in the country and 100 people are taxed and contribute to building the road where 1 contributes in the country, hence the cost per individual is 100 times greater. The average length of road, as I understand it, is about 1 mile to the quarter section. The cost of building hard-surface roads is about $20,000 per mile; to build half of that mile it will cost $10,000 for every quarter section of the land. The average width of a residential lot is less than 4 rods and of a business lot less than 2-rods. The two combined, less than 6 rods, which makes it only one twenty-seventh of the length of road along the quarter section. Is it practical for the Federal Government to commit itself to these hard surface roads? Is it not safe to leave it to the State legis- latures and the people in the respective communities to determine what roads they will build? Why not leave it to the good judgment of the people? Mr. Harrison. I do not recall the exact wording of the statement, but it does not mean that there ought to be concrete roads all over the country. The Cuarrman. I take it to mean exactly what is stated in the report. It was made clear before this committee that the Depart- ment of Agriculture would not commit itself to paved roads or any other hard roads. . Mr. Harrison. The department has not committed itself to any particular type of road. This is clearly indicated by the action that has been taken under the terms of the Federal aid road act. Many sand-clay and gravel projects, as well as hard-surface roads, have been approved by the department under its provisions. The CuarrmMan. You may put whatever construction on the words that you please; the word “ paved” is used; yet this committee never 74 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. was committed to it; the Secretary promised the committee that he never would commit the department to hard-surface roads. Mr. Harrison. No reference is made in the Federal aid road act to any particular type of road. It requires, however, that all roads constructed under its provisions shall be “substantial in character” which means, according to the Secretary’s report for 1919— that the road must be so constructed that it will carry the prospective traffic with such maintenance expenses that the total annual charges will represent a reasonable expenditure for the public service rendered by the highway. It is to the interest of the States that the roads on which Federal funds are used be substantially constructed, because the law requires them, or their civil sub- divisions, as a prerequisite to receiving further funds, to maintain properly all roads built with Federal aid. There is nothing in the law which restricts types of construction between narrower limits than those established by sound finance and good engineering practice. The Cuarrman. I am referring to the statement made to this com- mittee before that bill was passed. It was stated positively that that department would never commit itself to hard-surfaced roads, and here we find a recommendation: Mr. Harrison. As I have said, the department has not committed itself to any particular type of road. The Cuarrman. The word “ paved ” is used. Mr. Harrison. I want to say again that the statement to which Mr. Haugen refers was not intended to commit the department in any way Mr. Jacoway. What does it mean, Mr. Harrison ? Mr. Harrison. ‘It refers to good roads, roads which are “ substan- tial in character,” and this phrase must be interpreted in the light of present and probable traffic and other conditions prevailing in the particular sections where the roads are constructed. I have already given a concise definition of the term. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I think Mr. Harrison is right about that. Mr. Harrison. There is no doubt about it. The Cuarrman. There is a definite statement there. “ Paved” is used. Everybody knows what a paved road is. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Chairman, several constructions can be given to many words, and I am stating to you now the construction placed by the department on the statement you have quoted. As a matter of fact, the statement says nothing about “ paved ” roads in the coun- try. If you will examine it closely you will:note that it reads this way: “If paved streets are desirable and necessary in the city, roads in the country which can be used both winter and summer for the transportation of farm products,” etc., “are equally necessary and should be provided.” This statement, so far as it relates to the coun- try, says merely that roads which can be used both winter and sum- mer—in other words, roads which are “substantial in character” within the meaning of the definition I have given here—are necessary and should be provided. The Cuarrman. Is there anything else, Dr. Taylor? Dr. Tayuor. I think that is all. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Dr. Taylor. (Thereupon, at 12.40 o’clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2 o’clock p. m.) AG RICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 75 Allotment of funds, by projects, for fiscal year 1920 and estimated for 1921, Bureau of Farm Management and Farm Economics. Allotments, 1920, Estimates, 1921. Projects. Increase. , De Statu- « Statu- CECA Oy Lump. tory. Total. | Lump. tory. Total. 1, Administration.............. $35, 565 | $36,830 | $72,395 |......... $46, 660 | $46,660 |......... $25, 735 2. Cost of production. . 0 3,680 | 23,750 |§243,090 | 19,320.| 262) 410 |$238, 660 |....... 3. Farm organization........... ‘i 18, 740 | 103, 535 , 000 440 61,440 |......... 42,095 4, Farm finance and farm rela- = LOIS Wirt ace cieute vais sayel reticent meceeos eal eanmeceuts 20,360) 3,800] 24,160] 24,160 ]....... 5. Agricultura history and By s2ceiacasncocene 7 32,180} 28,100} 9,900] 38,000] 5,820]....... @. Uaaeeonemics 3,780 | 35,550 | 110,520} 14,220 | 124°740| 99,190 |-.....- 7. Rural life studies! . e 1, 2 9,960 19, 360 2,40 21, 760 1,800 |....... 8. Demonstration activities (extension work).......... 18790 |x ccerors sce 14,720 | 32,820 |......... 32,820 | 18,100 ]....... Statutory vacancies .........]....-.... 10, 500 10, 500): ersersteree ca rams baa arose cu llomiteoravas 10, 500 Total esseecuscsseeeesees 218,160 | 84,430 | 302,590 | 506,250 | 105,740 | 611,990 | 387,730 | 78,330 1A lars part of the work of the project on rural organization of the Bureau of Markets was transferred propriation of $15,780 and a statutory arm financial relations (lump, $4,150; statutory, $2,600; total, $6,750); rural life studies (lump, $11,630; statutory, $1,200; total, $12,830). to the Office of Farm oe appropriation of $3,800. Net increase—$309, 400. ent, together with its lump-fund a ese funds were allotted as follows: ie CoMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, - Hovse or REPRESENTATIVES, Tuesday, December 9, 1919. The Cuarrman. We will be pleased to hear Mr. Marvin next. Weatuer Bureau. STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES F. MARVIN, CHIEF OF THE WEATHER BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Mr. Marvin. Mr. Chairman, in accordance with the program which Mr. Harrison has just outlined, I have prepared a statement here on the estimates for the Weather Bureau. With your permis- sion I should like to read this, and I think the hearing may go along more rapidly that way. The Cuarrmay. Is it brief and to the point? Mr. Marvin. I think so; yes, sir; probably more so than I could state it myself. In view of the fact there are a number of new mem- bers on the committee, I have taken a little time to briefly outline the work and functions of the Weather Bureau. No more concise statement of these can be given than that found in the organic act of the bureau, which in part reads as follows: Sec. 3. That the Chief of the Weather Bureau, under the direction of the Secretary of Agriculture on and after July first, eighteen hundred and ninety- one, shall have charge of the forecasting of weather, the issue of storm warn- ings, the display of weather and flood signals, for the benefit of agriculture, commerce, and navigation, the gaging and reporting of rivers, the maintenance and operation of seacoast telegraph lines, and the collection and transmission of marine intelligence for the benefit of commerce and navigation, the reporting of temperature and rainfall conditions for the cotton interests, the display of frost and cold-wave signals, the distribution of meteorological information in the interests of agriculture and commerce, and the taking of such meteoro- logical ohservations as may be necessary to establish and record the climatic conditions of the United States, or as are essential for the proper execution of the foregoing duties. (Act Oct. 1, 1890, c. 1266, s. 3, 26 Stat., 653.) I quote this language to show that agriculture is only one primary interest which the Weather Bureau is required to serve. Congress has placed the Weather Bureau in the Department of Agriculture, and the law says the Weather Bureau must serve com- merce and navigation as well as agriculture. This point is empha- sized in order that this committee, whose primary interests are of necessity chiefly in behalf of agriculture, may neverthless clearly recognize how comprehensive and far-reaching is the oe service which the Weather Bureau is required to render. ithout 77 78 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. exaggeration I can confidently say that there is scarcely any impor- tant industry or activity of the Nation which is not to a greater or less extent influenced by weather conditions, and therefore needs the advices, information, and economic benefits which flow from the ol and efficient administration of all the duties of the Weather ureau. If you go back, gentlemen, to the joint resolution of Congress which created the Weather Service in 1870, you will see that the pri- mary object was to benefit navigation—marine navigation—to save life and property on the Great Lakes and the Atlantic coast. Nearly 50 years of splendid service to the Nation now stands to the credit of - the Weather Bureau, and to-day navigation of the air for both civil and military purposes is a complete realization. More than ever before the-science of meteorology is now called upon in aid of aerial navigation. Lives and property engaged in aeronautics must now be spared and conserved, and the estimates of the Weather Bureau make provision for much-needed extensions in this direction. This service by the Weather Bureau in aid of aviation is’of great impor- tance to the Army, the Navy, the Post Office, the Air Service, and all interested in the development of civil aeronautics. It is important to recognize that the outcome of the war has brought us face to face with an entirely new set of working conditions, and these impose upon the Weather Bureau large extensions of its work if it is to continue to fully serve the public, the industries, commerce, and navigation, especially the present-day navigation of the air and of the oceans. Meteorology applied to military operations accomplished many wonderful results during the war, and even in peace time its advices and information are indispensable to many branches of the military, such as the Air Service, the Coast and Field Artillery, the gas-war- fare section, and to the Navy in its operations of heavy gunfire, navigation of the air and the oceans, and like activities. - During the war a proclamation of the President charged the Chief . Signal Officer with the duty of organizing and directing the meteoro- logical work of the Army. In a public address on aeronautics in the United States, Gen. George O. Squier makes the following statement with reference to the meteorological work of the Army developed during the war: The success which the meteorological service has attained would have been wholly impossible had it not been for the intimate and effective cooperation which has been extended to it in all of its projects by Director C. F. Marvin and the entire staff of the United States Weather Bureau. That effective cooperation is still in full force, as far as available funds permit, but the hand of the Weather Bureau must now be strengthened so that it can properly meet all the obligations imposed by post-war conditions and devolving upon it by force of the pro- visions of its organic act. No other agency of the Government now has like authority of law to engage in or perform meteorological . work, and if the Weather Bureau fails to meet requirements it will certainly become necessary for other Federal agencies to undertake’ ’ the wore Obviously this would involve much wasteful duplication and call for far larger ultimate expenditures, en 2 There should be one and only one strong Government agency en- gaged in conducting all lines of work in meteorology. Its service AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 79 of advices, information, warnings, and observations must at all times be made available to every interest needing them or benefited thereby. Failure to meet any of these obligations opens the way to segregation of functions, duplication, and waste. During the war the expenditures, personnel, and activities of the bureau were held to the absolute minimum. Important lines of work were curtailed, and urgently needed extensions were restricted or deferred. The funds, formerly sufficient, are now inadequate to con- duct the same activities. The time has come when the appropria- one of the Weather Bureau must be adjusted to its new responsi- ilities. These estimates are not intended to provide for anything but urgent necessities. I wish to emphasize that our program is a great actual service to the whole public based upon a long experience of the bureau in doing like work. No large expenditures upon ques- tionable schemes of investigation or developments with doubtful outcome are contemplated. It is altogether a question of normal legitimate growth. We can not stop the Nation from growing, and the Weather Bureau must grow with the Nation. I appeal to you, gentlemen, simply for funds to rehabilitate the bureau from the consequences of the war and to enable it to meet the new demands it now faces. It is impossible to close this general statement without a brief discussion of salary increases, notwithstanding that all provisions for increases are excluded from these estimates because of the plans for the reclassification of Federal employees. The salary situation, however, is distressing, and I mention this unpleasant subject here only because it is so vital and because the salaries of employees of the Weather Bureau were fixed many years ago, and have remained: nearly stationary ever since. As a class these men were decidedly underpaid before the war as compared with many employees in newer branches of the Department and Government. The bonuses, etc., afford no adequate remedy for this. situation, because insufficient, and they do not and can not extend even-handed justice. Loyal, faithful, and efficient employees of our bureau pa- triotically held their posts under distressing conditiens during the war. Great unrest and discontent are now growing among these faithful public servants, as they feel more keenly the pinch of the high cost of living and see the wages of the plumber, the carpen- ter, the mason, the printer, in fact, of the mechanic in every grade, as also the pay of miners, railroad men, and ordinary uneducated labor- ers, including the salaries of professional and technical men in the in- ‘dustries, going higher and higher. The average daily wage of 26 building trades in New York City, as issued November 8, is $6.87. The average daily wage of the helpers in these same trades is $4.75. The average daily basic pay of the 500 technical field employees of the Weather Bureau, calculated on a basis of six days to the week and 50 weeks to the year, and with an average length of service of 15 years, is $4.38. That is to say, the technical and scientific men of the Weather Bureau now receive less pay than the wage of me- chanics’ helpers; based upon service six days a week. As a matter of fact, the average daily pay of Weather Bureau field employees is considerably less-than $4.38, because they are required to be on duty every day in the year, Sundays and holidays included. More 30 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. than that, a large part of them perform work that carries them well into the hours of the night. Mechanics would receive time and a half or double time for similar hours, which is not available to our Gov- ernment men, and which, if added to the average of $6.87 per day shown for mechanics, makes the comparison all the more significant. The service performed by our meteorologists is unsurpassed in its ‘scientific technology and importance to the Nation. In the nearly 50 years of the existence of the bureau, its experts have brought the service of meteorology applied to the welfare of the Nation to a highly. advanced stage of perfection. Great atmospheric disturbances visit with relative frequency one section of the country or another. Violent storms, cold waves, frosts, freezes, hurricanes, floods, heavy snows, and the like, repeatedly cause destruction of property, such as shipping on the Great Lakes and coastal waters.of the Nation and in recent times the lives and property engaged in aerial navigation. ‘Crops and farms in flooded districts are laid waste. Lambs, live stock, and meat animals in the stock ranges of the West are killed by ‘blizzards and cold waves. Orchard crops, truck gardens, and vine- yards everywhere are damaged by frosts and freezes. The men of the Weather Bureau are the sentinels ever on guard against these injurious natural forces. By forecasts and warnings, issued and ‘disseminated well in advance, great economic benefits and saving accrue to the Nation through the precautionary measures which can be taken on timely advices to minimize or ward off injuries which otherwise inevitably attend the great atmospheric phenomena men- tioned. Efficiency in the execution of this work requires military -promptness and fidelity in the execution of orders and frequently entails continuous duty, day and night, whenever exigencies arise, and regardless of the conventional hours of work, and on Sundays and holidays alike. ; The educational qualifications, devotion to the science, and the ‘intellectual attainments of the men competent to perform these im- portant functions and conduct the researches and investigations es- ‘sential to progress and the development of science are of the highest -order. These men now appeal for recognition—plead for simple see in the form of adequate compensation under existing con- .ditions. The present plans for the reclassification of salaries of Govern- ment employees applies only to employees in Washington. Nearly 70 per cent of the Weather Bureau men are in the field, and I must urge with all the sincerity within my power that this Congress ex- tend quickly to these men in the field the relief so long delayed, so _justly deserved, and so urgently needed. Passing from these generalizations to the more detailed features of my estimates, I must emphasize again that every increase re- -quested is now deemed urgently necessary to enable the Weather Bureau to meet the new conditions which it now faces. Our appropriations have remained nearly stationary during the period of the war and it is necessary that they now be brought up to working conditions at the present time. At this point, Mr. Chairman, I should like to proceed to the de- tailed estimates, which begin with the statutory roll, page 25. ‘The Crairman. Will you take them up item by item? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. $1 Mr. Marvin. Mr. Chairman, I should like to read a brief state- ment in regard to that roll, covering the few minor changes, and then we can go to a discussion of the items. The Cuairman. Kindly refer to the page of the estimates, the mee of the item, and read the first line of each item in the record. Mr. Marvin. Page 25. This is what is called the statutory roll of the Weather Bureau. Mr. Hurcuinson. Before you start, may I ask you a question: Which item here is it that comprises these field operators, the ones who work outside? Mr. Marvin. Those will come in item 55—it is further along in the estimates; the field men are item 55, on page 29. I would like to take that up in detail later. The statutory roll calls for no explanation, because, under the De- partmental instructions, no material change was permitted except to make a few necessary transfers from the miscellaneous rolls which have been reduced accordingly. : The Crairman. Will you point out the increases? Mr. Anprerson. After making these transfers to the statutory roll, will you still be carrying any clerks on your lump fund appro- priation ? Mr. Marvin. No, sir. The CHarrman. Will not the lump sum appropriations carry salaries? Mr. Marvty. Oh, yes. Mr. Anderson spoke about clerks. The Cuarrman. Future appointments made under the lump sum appropriations will not be carried on the statutory roll. So you may have a number outside of those appearing on the statutory roll. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; scientific and technical men, but not clerks. There will be a number of employees on the lump-sum appropria- tions; none, however, of the character that go on the statutory roll according to the plan by which the statutory rolls and the mis- cellaneous rolls are differentiated at the present time. These trans- fers, Mr. Chairman, to which I referred are the transfers which are made in accordance with the plans under which we have been working for several years. The scientific and technical men are carried on the miscellaneous rolls. The clerical force, laborers, and men of that character, are carried on the statutory roll. These transfers, for example, of two clerks at $1,200 each. Mr. Jones. That is subdivision 10, is it not? Mr. Marvin. On page 27, near the top. The Cuairman. It would be well to take them up from the be- ginning, starting on page 25, item 10 (82 clerks, class 1), there is an increase of two by transfer from lump fund. Mr. Marvin. Those are the two I am speaking of. Mr. Jonxs. You reduce the clerk hire there, too, don’t you? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. It makes the difference between last year’s request of $37,200 and this year’s estimate of $37,600? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. Your next change is down in item 24? Mr. Marvin. (Item 24, one supervising instrument maker.) Yes, sir. | 164315—20——6 82 : AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Jonxs. That is true. Those are all the changes there are on -that page. Mr. Marvrn. Yes, sir. Mr. Jonzs. Then on page 26, in article, 31, you have a change? Mr. Marvin. Item 34. (One assistant engineer, $1,200.) : Mr. Jongs. No3 item 31. It is $840 in here, and it was $720 in the other. ; Mr. Marvin. One skilled mechanic, $840, according to my copy, item 31. Mr. Jones. Yes; a difference in last year’s appropriation; 34 is added, is it not? : Mr. Marvin. Thirty-four (one assitant engineer, $1,200)—that is a new place. Mr. Jones. The next one is 89 (one repairman, $1,200). Mr. Marvin. The changes in the statutory roll are summarized on the top of page 27: New place, one assistant engineer. Transfers: Two clerks, one supervising instrument maker and one repairman. Those are the only changes in the statutory roll. Mr. McLavcuiw of Michigan. And those men were formerly carried on the lump sum? Mr. ‘Marvin. Yes, sir; new men taken on during the year. The Cuarrman. And a new place submitted ? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; a new place submitted, for an assistant engineer. . Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Those men transferred were car- ried on the lump sum at the same salaries? Mr. Marvin. The same salaries, yes, sir. Those were new places which were required and for which there were no places on the statutory roll. Under the law, we can appoint those men on the miscellaneous roll and in the next estimates, transfer them to the statutory roll. That is the plan followed at the present time. Mr. Anverson. I notice all through these estimates that apparently ues your lump-sum appropriations you do not estimate for any clerks. 5 Mr. Marvin. No, sir. Mr. AnvErson. But somehow or other during the year a lot of clerks get on that roll and then the next year they appear as trans- ferred from the lump-fund roll to the statutory roll. Mr. Marvin. Mr. Anderson, in that case, in the present Weather Bureau case, you will notice, three. of those places are on the aero- logical roll. That is a new line of work that Congress gave us money for the development of a year or two ago. We could not foresee at the time the estimates were made, just exactly the number of clerks we would need. The law gives us the authority to employ clerks under those exigencies in the development and expansion of new work. We are authorized by law to employ those clerks on the miscellaneous roll and to pay them from the miscellaneous fund until the positions are made statutory. Mr. Anperson. Those are temporary clerks; not permanent? Mr. Marvin. They are permanent, not temporary. We transfer them in the next estimates to the statutory roll and reduce the mis- cellaneous fund accordingly. Now, Mr. Chairman, if I may proceed here with my statement, I would like to call attention to a situation that is not set out in AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 83 these estimates at all as I think you should to be acquainted with the conditions under which we are struggling. The Cuatrman. Before you leave this item, explain the new place item 34 (one assistant engineer, $1,200). Let us dispose of item by item, and clear it up as we go along. Mr. Marvin. This new place is for an assistant engineer. The Weather Bureau has its own property at Twenty-fourth and M Streets, in this city. We have buildings and grounds and operate our own light and power plant. Men are on duty there from 6 and 7 o’clock in the morning until 10 and 11 o’clock at night. The forecast work requires work at nighttime, and our power-plant employees must be on duty there all this time and keep the plant in operation. We have one engineer now and we are asking for an assistant engineer. The plant is in charge of a fireman when the engineer is off duty. He can not be on duty all the time. It is unsafe and unsatisfactory to leave that expensive plant in charge of the fireman. We want an assistant engineer there at $1,200 to take charge when the engineer is not on duty. The Cuarrman. You say from 6 in the morning until 11 at night? Mr. Marvin. Mr. Calvert, at what time do they start up in the morning ? STATEMENT OF MR. E. B. CALVERT, CHIEF CLERK OF THE WEATHER BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Mr. Catvert. The engines are started at 7 o’clock in the morning; observations begin at 7.30. The CuHarrman. How much of a force have you there beyond the seven hours? Mr. Catvert. The map force consists, all told, of about 15 men, including the telegraph operators. These men are engaged on the scientific features of the work. The Cuatrman. The whole building has-to be heated from 7 o’clock in the morning to 11 o’clock at night? Mr. Catverr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. With one engineer? Mr, Catverr. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How many firemen? Mr. Catvert. May I make this statement? Up to a few months ago we had a fireman and steamfitter at $840, who had been with us a great many years and who was competent to take care of that plant. He resigned and is receiving now, as I understand, $7 a day in the navy yard. The Cuarrman. How many firemen have you? Mr. Catvert. We have five, including the fireman and steamfitter. The Cuarrman. How big a plant is it? Mr. Catvert. We have two large boilers. The horsepower de- veloped, I can not say off-hand. The two boilers heat a group of sauilenies that is, one big main building and annexes which are entirely separated from the. main building. In addition they fur- nish the power for all of the printing presses and machine shops. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. These five men are not on duty all at the same time? 84 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _ Mr. Catverr. Oh, no; we have two firemen on duty from 7 o’clock m is morning until 11 o’clock at night, and one fireman after 11 o’clock. Mr. McLaveurin of Michigan. None of them work more than eight hours? : r. Catvert. They work a full eight hours; we have an eight-hour shift for the power-plant employees. The Cuairman. Do they work Sundays and holidays? Mr. Catverr. Sundays and holidays included. Mr. Hvurcurnson. You said you had two boilers? Mr. Catverr. Two boilers. Mr. Hurcurnson. What is the power they generate? Mr, Marvin. Rated at 100 horsepower each. The CuarrMan. Can you give an estimate of how mutch coal they consume ? 4 Mr. Catvert. We consume a ton and a half to two tons of coal a ay. Mr. Hourcuinson. It takes four men to fire a ton and a half to two tons of coal a day? Mr. Catvert. We only have two employees on at a time. Mr. Hurcurnson. But you have four or five firemen? Mr. Catverr. They work in 8-hour shifts, 24 hours a-day, and there are not more than two firemen on at any one time. Mr. Hurcurnson. Don’t you suppose it would be cheaper if you would fire them and get two good men in their places, and that you would get better results? Mr. Catvert. I doubt very much whether we could get men who would work 12 hours on a stretch. Mr. Hurcurnson. You can not get good men on the salaries you are paying? Mr. Catvert. That is true. The CuarrmMan. How much coal did you say is consumed in 24 hours? : Mr. Catverr. About a ton and a half a day. I have not the exact figures. The Cuatrman. And it takes five men to shovel a ton and a half of coal a day? Mr. Catvert. There are only two men on duty at one time in the lant. The Cuarrman. But in all there are five men? Mr. Catvert. In all there are five men. The Cuatrman. On the three shifts? Mr. Catvert. On the three shifts. Mr. Jones. Why five; why not six? How do you manage your third shift? Mr. Catverr.. Simply because after work is closed down at 11 o’clock at night, it only takes one man to keep the fires going. They are banked or semibanked. Mr. Hurcuinson. He is a watchman, then, after that? Mr. Catverr. You may call him a watchman, but he has to keep the fires going from 11 o’clock at night until 7 o’clock in the morning. . Mr. Lesuer. Would not those fires keep going without him? Mr. Caxvert. I believe it would be unsafe to leave the plant alone. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 85 STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES F. MARVIN, CHIEF OF THE WEATHER BUREAU—Continued. Mr. Lzsuer. If that is all the coal those men shovel, they are not overworked. Do you know what a fireman usually shovels? Mr. Marvin. I do.not, but we must have a man there whether he is busy shoveling coal or not. Mr. Trncuer. Supposing the manufacturing interests and busi- ness interests, outside interests, were to work on that basis, how would they operate? If they had to have four firemen on in order to handle a ton and a half of coal a day, how much would get done in this country if individuals managed their business in any such manner as that? Mr. Marvin. That depends on what kind of a plant they operate, of course. Mr. Tincuer. It does not make any difference what kind of a plant they operate. If you have two boilers, furnishing 100 horse- power, and keep two firemen on hand .to keep those boilers run- ning—two firemen on duty on one shift to keep those two boilers running—any business man would say there ought to be a reform in the business, I would think. Are the boilers so separated that one man can not put coal into both of them ? Mr. Cauverr. The boilers are closely related. Mr. Hurcurnson. Do these firemen do any other work but fire this ton and a half of coal? Mr. Marvin. I think not; the firemen do only the firemen’s work. Mr. Hurcurson. All they do is to handle this ton and a half of coal a day, these five men; is that all? Mr. Catvert. That is all they do, and take care of the general plant. We assign them to no other labor. Mr. Hurcurnson. What other work does a fireman do except put in the coal ? Mr. Marvin. Of course, he has to: keep the engine room clean and to take the ashes out and see to the hauling of them away, and see that a man calls for the ashes, and all that. Mr. Trncuer. But a man calls for the ashes? Mr. Marvin. He has to place them where he can get them. We have a little hoist in the basement room that takes the ashes out. Mr. Hurcuinson. That is about two or three wheel-barrows full? Mr. Marvin. They are put onto the hoist in cans, or in receptacles of that character—fireproof receptacles. The question here is, whether it is proper administration that this heating and power plant, two generators, and all that machinery which is kept in opera- tion up to 11 o’clock at night, should be left in charge of a man who is not an engineer, especially the kind of fireman you can employ for $840; or whether we should have a responsible assistant engineer at higher pay to do that work. ; The Cuatrman. Have you made investigations as to the number employed at other plants outside of your department, and how many should be required to run a plant of this sort? Mr. Marvin. I have not made any comparison of that sort. We have submitted this because we believe it to be a reasonable provision, and we think it is not an unfair comparison with other branches of the Government where they are operating under similar conditions. 86 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. This plant is by itself and, as I have explained, we have a printing plant and machine ‘shop, and the power is used for running the presses and machinery. The engines are in operation all during the day, from 7 o’clock in the morning on holidays and Sundays. We have thé night forecasting, which is rarely completed before 11 o’clock. Then there is the heating of the buildings in cold weather. It is a pretty long stretch on duty, and it is simply impossible for one engi- neer to do that. : Mr. Jones. I concede probably you are justified in asking for an assistant engineer. One engineer can not stay on duty in a plant and watch the machinery, the engines and dyamos, for 24 hours if they are continuously in operation. But is it your opinion that two firemen should be engaged at the same time, just to fire two boilers closely related and that do not consume any more than a ton and a half of coal a day? Mr. Marvin. I think this condition of the four firemen at $720 has been in operation for some time, and we have felt it necessary to have that number. Mr. Jonzs. Necessary, why? To run the boilers, or for some other reason ? é Mr. Marvin. No, sir; those men are engaged not only on firing work, but must look after the engines and dynamos, which require frequent attention. Mr. Jones. Then is it your opinion it takes two firemen to fire two boilers that are closely related and burn only a ton and a half of coal a day? Mr. Marvin. My experience is it is necessary to have two men on duty at one time. Mr. Hurcuinson. Suppose a manufacturer were to run his busi- ness that way. How long do you think he would run it? Mr. Marvin. I am sorry to say I am not a manufacturer. Mr. Trycuer. That is, in all six men producing a hundred horse- power in 24 hours—five firemen and one engineer. Now, it takes 100 horsepower to run many private institutions in the country, and if any one’ used six men in producing 100 horsepower he ought to buy new equipment if he has such equipment as that. What kind of engines are they ? Mr. Marvin. These are internal-combustion boilers. Mr. Trncuer. The rest of it is electrical machinery ? Mr. Marvin. The rest of it is electrical machinery—two generators and -two engines. ; Mr. Trncuer. Of course, a private institution, in private business, would use three men to perform in 24 hours, one man for each 8 hours. That is what you would have to do if you were running a private business; but here you have six and are-asking for seven. The Cuarrman. The number seems large. In my country one engi- neer would shovel a ton and a half of coal and run the engine Lata without the firemen. That matter should be looked into, octor. Mr. Marvin. I would be very glad to consider a reallotment of that force if it is possible to work it out. I would like, Mr. Chair- man, with your permission, to give this matter further considera- : tion and submit a statement to you in regard to it. Mr. Tincuer. Where is this plant? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 87 Mr. Marvin. At Twenty-fourth and M Streets. Mr. Jones. What coal do they burn; soft coal? Mr. Marvin. Soft coal at the present time. We formerly burned hard coal. The Cuairman. You have Item No. 35 (one fireman and steam fitter, $840). What does he do? Mr. Marvin. That is an additional fireman to the four that are in the previous item, and his duties, in addition to fireman, are to look after the maintenance of the steam-heating and plumbing work vf the bureau. He is called a fireman and steam fitter, simply be- cause he has this additional qualification. Very little of his time should be devoted to the power plant, but it is necessary under pres- ent conditions. The Cuarrman. That is outside of the engine room? Mr. Marvin. His duties carry him outside of the engine room; wherever the heating equipment or plumbing of the building requires alteration or attention or maintenance. * The Cuarrman. You have Item 39 (one repair man by transfer from lump fund for station salaries, $1,200). What are his duties? Mr. Marvin. That is the case of an employee in the field. This is a line repair man, what is called a repair man of the telegraph line. We have a telegraph line down the Atlantic coast from Cape Henry to Cape Hatteras. _The Cuarrman. It is outside of Washington? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. The CuarrMan. He is outside of Washington? Mr. Marvin. He is outside of Washington. Mr. Trncuer. What is Item 87 (one captain of the watch); is that in this main building? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; it is on this property. Mr. Trncuer. He is a different man from these others? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Trxcuer. Then Item 88 (one electrician)——he is in the same building ? Mr. Marvin. That is the Weather Bureau property. The Weather Bureau property consists of a central building with a wing or exten- sion running around the grounds. Mr. Tincner. This electrician has to do with the machinery that is operated by this 100-horsepower boiler? : Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. We have also the lighting, the heating, and the power of our building operated from this power plant; the elec- trican looks after all wiring, installations, etc., as well as the large number of batteries used in the operation of automatically recording instruments, signals, etc. gos Mr. Trncuer. That is all the power he has any jurisdiction over, the electricity that is furnished by this 100-horsepower plant? - Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. : Mr. Trxncuer. And the captain of the watch, does he look after the same building? Mr. Marvin. He is in charge of the watch force and the laborers of the bureau required in and around the grounds and the messengers who carry the maps, forecasts, and so forth, into the city routes, and the general supervision of the laboring force. 88 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Jones. Item 39 (one repair man), that is a man out in the field? That is right? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. What is Item 40 (one repair man, $960) ? Mr. Marvin. That is another repair man. Mr. Jonrs. Out in the field? Mr. Marvin. He is in the field; yes, sir. Mr. Jones. How about Item 42 (four repair men, at $840 each) ? Mr. Marvin. They are repair men who are in the field. Mr. Jones. And Item 48 (six repair men, at $720 each) ? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. Item 44 (four watchmen, at $720 each), where are they stationed ? Mr. Marvin. They are in Washington. Mr. Jones. For how many buildings? Mr. Marvin. We have one main building and one auxiliary build- apne extends around two angles of the square. he CuarrMan. It is all in one block, is it not? Mr. Marvin. It is all in one block; yes, sir. Mr. Jones. Why four watchmen for them? Mr. Marvin. It is required; we could not properly guard the build- ings with less. : Mr. Hutcnrnson. Why could we not consolidate these four watch- anes wilt the four firemen and give them more money and get better service ? Mr. Marvin. I do not think so. Mr. Hurcuinson. Why could you not get a man for $720-—— Mr. Marvin. If I may ask Mr. Calvert—he has more knowledge of the watch force and the firemen’s work—and if he can make a statement it may help to provide an explanation here as to the number of watchmen required. ae Cuairman. What. is the total cost of operating this heating plant ? : Mr. Catvert. I have not the figures, Mr. Chairman; but we can very easily secure them for you. We have a very competent en- alia who is intrusted with the details of the operation of the plant. , The Cuarrman. We would like to have an approximate amount, if you can give it. Mr. Catyert. That is, you wish the coal and material— The Cuarrman. To heat and light the buildings. Mr. Catvert. I would not venture an opinion, Mr. Chairman, because it would be a guess. The CHarrman. How would it compare with the general charge the city. makes for light ? Mr. Catvert. That has been investigated a number of times, and it was ‘found more advantageous to continue our present arrange- ment. * The Cuairman. Would not the cost be considerably less? Mr. Catvert. When you figure the new equipment required in changing over from direct current to alternating current equipment it is very much more economical under the present arrangement, Mr. Tincuer. You mean, the cost of current in Washington is: such that you could operate a 100-horsepower plant with this kind of expensive plant cheaper than you can buy the current? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 89 Mr. Catvert. A few years ago the matter was investigated, for the purpose of changing from our own power to city power. I was not among the men who investigated the matter, but the report showed it to be more economical to retain the present plant. Mr. Tincuer. Do you know what the power price is for current? Mr. Cauvert. For an individual, I tank it is 10 cents. Mr. Trycuer. Oh, no; for power? = Mr. Catvert. For power; I do not know exactly; probably 3, 4, or 5 cents, depending on consumption. Mr. Anpvrrson. How long ago was this investigation made? Mr. Catvert. About five years ago. Mr. Anvrrson. Your plant is a direct-current plant? Mr. Catvert. A direct-current plant, yes, sir. Mr. Anperson. That means heavier wires? Mr. Catverr. You understand the power required principally is in connection with the printing plant and machine shop, which are near the generators. Every press and machine has its individual motor, and it would require a new motor for every press or else new conyensts to switch over from our own central plant ,to the city plant. Mr. Tincuer. Why is that? Mr. Marvin. Because you can not use an alternating current to run a direct-current motor. Mr. Anperson. What do you have now, 220 volts? Mr. Canvert. One hundred and ten. Mr. Anperson. Direct current? Mr. Canverr. One hundred and ten voltage, direct current. Mr. Jonzs. There is a machine, just one machine, that makes that transfer from direct to alternating current. Mr. Lesuer. The transformer. Mr. Catvert. You have to convert from alternating to direct cur- rent, which is expensive, I understand. Mr. Lesuer. Oh, no; up where I come from we change over right -along. It depends on the amount you want to transform. Mr. Marvin. That is a transformer from a high voltage to a low voltage, not converting from alternating to direct current on a rotary converter. The Cuairman. It costs at least $16,000 a year to run this plant, does it not? Mr. Marvin. I think we could make progress if you would permit us to submit a supplemental statement covering the cost of the operation of the plant on definite data we can easily get at the office. But we have not come prepared, not expecting this particular ques- tion to arise, to answer your inquiries in regard to this point. The Cuarrman. After all, this is the place to thresh out these questions, but you may insert a statement. STATEMENT REGARDING THE HEAT, LIGHT, AND POWER PLANT OF THE WEATHER BUREAU. The Weather Bureau maintains its own plant for producing heat, light, and power. Two boilers of a capacity of 100 horsepower each are used. The electric current for light, and power is generated by two separate units, an 80-horsepower engine attached to a 50-kilowatt generator;and a 30-horsepower engine connected with a 25-kilowatt generator. The work of the Weather 90 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Bureau requires that this plant be in active operation from 7 a. m. to 11 p. m.,, and sometimes later, every day in the year, Sundays and holidays included. The present force employed in the plant is one engineer at $1,300, one skilled mechanic at $1,000, one fireman and steamfitter at $840, and three firemen at $720. Another fireman at $720 per annum on the statutory roll is on duty at Mount Weather. This place will be dropped when Mount Weather is sold. The engineer is in charge of the plant. He can not be expected to be on duty for the full period of 15 hours that the engines are in operation. Therefore, the skilled mechanic and the fireman and steamfitter serve in his absence on regular eight-hour shifts. A pressure of 80 pounds of steam is carried. Two employees must be on duty during this 15-hour period, one in the boiler-room and the other in the engine room. The man on duty in the engine room must keep the engines, dynamos, and switchboard under constant surveillance. It would be unsafe to leave the engine room unattended, as one man can not feed and attend to the boilers and be in the engine room at the same time. The force is divided into eight- hour shifts. Two men must be on duty when the engines are running during the period of at least 15 hours, practically two shifts. : From-11 p. m. to 7 a. m. only one fireman is required. Therefore, five men must be on duty each day. In order to give these men relief one day in seven and to provide for leaves of absence and. sick leave another man is required. This man is the fireman and steamfitter who acts as relief fireman. If an assistant engineer is provided, it” will insure the safety and efficiency of the plant and enable the steamfitter to ~ devote his time to the duties relating to his position and.be available for - firing only in emergencies. It is difficult to secure a good fireman at $720 per annum, and to secure a man competent to take charge of the engine room at the pay of an ordinary fireman is more than can be expected. The per-annum cost of maintaining the plant during the fiscal year ending June 80, 1919, was approximately as follows: Salaries (not including bonus) $5, 300 Coal, oil, etc ‘ sae 2,227 Miscellaneous expenses, including repairs and materials___._____._-___.. 497 Total 8, 240 The question of using current supplied by commercial companies was care- fully considered a few years ago. It is practicable only by the installation of ex- pensive machinery because the Weather Bureau is outside of the direct-current area and would have to use alternating current. All of the motors, fans, and other electrical equipment in use are for 110-volt direct current. It was found that outside current could not be efficiently and economically used at the prices for outside current and machinery cost prevailing at the time the question was investigated. It would be less advantageous to do so at the prevailing high cost of labor, machinery, and material that would be required to purchase and install new apparatus. Commercial current could be used advantageously after installing new apparatus if only electric power and lights were needed, but steam must be generated in the summer months for the testing of instru-. ments and for other purposes and to heat the buildings during cold weather, making a steam plant necessary throughout the year. To produce steam for heating and other purposes and at the same time purchase current would entail useless cost. An exact comparison cost can not be included in this state- ment because of the considerable time that would be required in securing quo- tations for the cost of new apparatus and installation. It is believed that no economy would result in the purchase of current and that the work of the bureau would materially suffer if a change were attempted. However, the whole question will be given a careful investigation, and any changes that will effect economy and efficiency will be made without delay. Mr. McLaventtn of Michigan. Will you indicate where these re- pair men (items 39, 40, 42, and 43) are employed, whether in the city or outside. There are 12 of them whose salaries aggregate nearly $10,000 for repair men. You say the first one, number 39, is a tele- eraph-line repair man outside of Washington; number 40 is the same. : How about the item 42 (4 repair men) and the item 48 (6 repair men), where are they employed? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 91 Mr. Marvin. Those are outside of Washington, also. Mr. McLaueuurn of Michigan. Then all of the 12 are outside of Washington ? ; Mr. Marvin. All outside of Washington; yes, sir. I think that is correct, is it not, Mr. Calvert ? Mr. Catvert. All are- outside of Washington. The Cuarrman. What is the nature of the work? Mr. Marvin. These telegraph lines are run in very difficult places where no commercial company will run a line. That is the reason we have put the lines in. There is one running from Norfolk to. Cape Henry and from Cape Henry to Cape Hatteras, along the coast. It is the only telegraph line on that coast. Originally it was erected for the Weather Bureau’s work alone, but it is now used by the Coast Guard and the Navy Department and they aid us in main- taining it. Some of these repair men are on this line. We have another line in the State of Washington, running from Port Angeles to Tatoosh Island. The Cuarrman. What is the length of the line? Mr. Marvin. That line is about 50 miles, I think. The Cuairman. Fifty miles? Mr. Marvin. Fifty miles in length. The Cuairman. How many repair men are there on that line? Mr. Marvin. It runs through a densely wooded tract and is very difficult to maintain. _ Mr. Catverr. Which line is this under discussion ? Mr. Marvin. Port Angeles-Tatoosh Island line. Mr. Catvert. There are four repair men on that line. It is the most difficult line we have to maintain, because it goes, most of it, through virgin forests. The Cuairman. How long is it? Mr. Catvert. I have the exact length of that line, 95 miles. ' Mr. Marvin. It is not a very long line. None of these are very ong. - The Cuarman. Can you give the length of the others? - Mr. Catvert. The Cape Henry line is 162 miles. The Cuarrman: How many repair men are used on it? Mr. Catvert. There are only two, because it runs through a coun- try where, the repair work is not nearly so difficult. The Cuarrman. Can you give the length of each? Mr. Marvin. The San Francisco-Point Reyes Light line. ‘Mr. Catverr. The San Francisco-Point Reyes line is 70 miles long. ue Hurcuinson. How much time do these men give as repair- men? Mr. Catvert. These men, you might say, are constantly on duty. Mr. Hurcurnson. All the time? “Mr. Catverr, All the time. Most of them are at isolated places along the line. In addition to taking care of all the repair work necessary in their maintenance, they are telegraph operators. Mr. Hurcurnson. Do you have any trouble in filling the positions ?- Mr. Catvert. We do. The Cuarrman. Item No. 41, one gardener; what does he do? Mr. Marvin. The gardener takes care of the grounds of our prop- erty that I mentioned. 92 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. The property here in the city? Mr. Marvin. Here in the city; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. It is about a quarter of a block? Mr. Marvin. It is about a third of a block. It is Twenty-fourth and M. Streets. The Columbia Hospital and the Weather Bureau occupy the whole block. The Cuarrman. What are his duties? Mr. Marvin. We have the gardener to take care of the grounds around the building, to keep them in presentable and respectable appearance. In the wintertime he does work with the laboring force in the buildings. The Cuarrman. You mean mowing the lawn? Mr. Marvin. Yes sir; and keeping a few flower beds and the shrub- bery in proper condition. The Cuarrman. How about item No. 45, 28 messengers? Mr. Jones. There are 166 messengers. The Cuarrman. Yes; but I am referring only to those under item 45, at $720. . Mr. Marvin. There seems to be a large number of the messengers, but most of them are in the field. We have 200 stations, but not every station has a messenger. Very many of them have one mes- senger at least, and sometimes we are obliged to put in two messen- gers under the existing conditions. We have difficulty in securing them at the low salaries allowed. Mr. Trncuer. What do they do? Mr. Marvin. They work in the offices in connection with the prep- aration of the forecast cards and operate addressographs and dis- tribute maps and bulletins. They also do other work about the station in connection with the maintenance of the instrumental equipment and things of that kind. ue Cuarirman. How many are employed at each station in each town ? Mr. Marvin. We have a small number of stations with only one man on duty. The Cuairman. About how many? Mr. Marvin. I should say there are 15 or 20 that have only one man. The rest of the stations, with a few exceptions, have from two to seven men, and a few of the large ones from 10 to 15. Mr. Jonzs. How many stations did you say you had? Mr. Marvin. In round numbers, 200 full reporting stations. Mr. Rusey. I notice you have a gentleman who comes over to the Capitol every morning and fixes up the map over there. What is his title? Mr. Marvin. He is a meteorologist. We have work of that char- acter in a considerable number of cities. Some of that work had to’ be discontinued during the war. We want some increases to en: able us to restore work which was suspended from necessity. The Cuairman. Will you prepare a statement as to the cost of this lighting plant? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. And also an estimate as to the cost of the service from the outside? Mr. Catvert. You say a comparison between what it will cost for outside current alone, and what it costs to maintain this plant? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 93 The Cuarrman. Yes. Nore.—This information is incorporated in the statement on page 15. Mr. Marvin. Now, Mr. Chairman, before we leave the statutory roll, I should like to bring to your attention here, because J think the committee should know it, a feature of the statutory roll that is not covered in the estimates. I would like to invite your atten- tion to item 20 (one printer or compositor), item 21 (six printers or compositors), and item 22 (five printers or compositors). The Cuarrman. I understand you are not asking for any increase in salaries? ' Mr. Marvin. No, sir. The Cuarrman. And we are not teking that matter up for con- sideration at this time; it has not been estimated for. It will be left for future consideration. Mr. Marvin. These men work in the field and the reclassification work is supposed to deal with people in Washington; but they are carried on the statutory roll. . Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. All these men you employ under items 20, 21, and 22 are in the field, you say ? Mr. Marvin. Are in the field. We can not keep these places filled. There are vacancies occurring in them and it is impossible to employ printers at the low salaries of $1,000 and $1,080. We have been com- pelled to employ emergency printers at union wages on account of the vacancies. Mr. Jonrs. They get the bonus, do they not? Mr. Marvin, Yes, sir. We have been compelled to employ emergency printers at union wages, at wages much higher than this. More than that, we have to pay their wages from the miscellaneous roll. The salaries provided on the statutory roll go back into the Treasury. We can not use that money for the emergency employments. It has to be taken from the miscellaneous roll at a cost higher than that paid the printers in item 19, of $1,300. What I desire is to have these places made the same, $1,300, to equalize them. The work of the Reclassification Commission does not extend to the men in the field, and these men are in the field. There also is the case of one skilled mechanic at $840 (item 31). Now, I do not need to argue that you can not employ much of a mechanic at $840. Mr. Jones. That is item 28? Mr. Marvin. That is item 31. Mr. Jones. You have one skilled mechanic in item 28 (one skilled mechanic, $1,300). Mr. Marvin. That is true. Mr. Jones. Is that the same thing? : Mr. Marvin. It is not the same mechanic. The skilled mechanic at $840 to which I refer is a man who has been with us for a number of years. He is engaged very largely in making kites which we use in aerological work. Mr. Jones. I made a notation of $720 with a minus sign of the amount appropriated for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1920. The Cuairman. If you are through, I would like to call your at- - tention to a communication from Judge Moon as to the salaries in Chattanooga and Knoxville. He advises me that the Government 94 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. observer at Knoxville is getting $400 a year more than the observer at Chattanooga, and says: I write to call your attention to this matter, with the hope that you may be able to do something in the interest of the observers in the class in which Mr, Pindell belongs. How do you equalize salaries? Are they all paid the same? Mr. Marvin. Mr. Chairman, I doubt if there is any branch of the Government that is measuring out justice, the even-handed justice, to its employees in greater degree than that which characterizes the administration of the salaries of the Weather Bureau men. : For several years we have had in operation a plan which the Sec- retary introduced in the department of classifying the employees in the order of their merit, ability, and efficiency, and claims for .ad- vancement, and all that. The efficiency ratings are prepared by a committee of employees and promotions are made accordingly; that is, whenever it is possible to make promotions. We can not make promotions until money is available, but when promotions can be made we give them to the men who have the highest positions on the register. Now, there are lots of deserving men (Mr. Pindell is one of them) who ought to have more money than they are receiv- ing, but to take it away from some other man and give it to Mr. Pindell would not be right. The Cuarrman. You pay $400 more to one than to the other be- cause of their duties to the city that they are in? Mr. Marvin. It depends not only on the size of the city but upon the value of the man’s service, ability, and qualifications, and all that. we Cuatrman. The size of the city does not enter into consider- ation ? Mr. Marvin. It does enter into consideration to a certain degree; but you can readily see we can not fix the salary of an employee based entirely on the size of the city in which he serves. We are obliged to change men from one place to another and to follow such a plan would necessitate changing salaries with every assignment. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Is the work in the different cities largely the same? Mr. Marvin. It differs with the cities. It is not any more the same in the different cities than the cities are the same them- selves; there are all sorts of differences. One city may be compara- tivly unimportant in a civic sense, but may be very important from the standpoint of our work. But to a certain degree the salaries of the men in the larger cities are uniformly higher than are the sal- aries of the men in the smaller cities where the responsibility is less. But the question apparently raised by that letter (I should like to read it a little more carefully) is one of discrimination between the two men. Mr. Hurcutnson. The men in the two cities have the same titles, do they not? : Mr. Marvin. Both are meteorologists. Mr. Horcuinson. All of them? Mr. Marvin. All of our station men engaged on scientific work are meteorologists and observers. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 95 Mr. Hurcuinson. And you have it fixed in the law, the salaries each one of them shall receive, and can not vary it? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; there is no law which tixes the salary of these men. Mr. Hurcuinson. You have no bulk appropriation, have you, out of which to pay these men ? Mr. Marvin. They are paid from lump-sum appropriations. Mr. Hurcuinson. That is a lump-sum appropriation. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; lump-sum appropriations; but it has no reference to this particular roll we are discussing now, which is statutory. The skilled mechanic to which I have made reference has been making all of our kites in upper air observation work. He has been with us for a long time and is getting only $840 a year. The Cuairman. In this connection, let me call your attention to another communication, which reads: I am informed by the Chief of the Weather Bureau that it has been neces- sary for the bureau, on account of lack of funds, to discontinue the publication of the daily weather map in about sixty cities in the United States. Among them are Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Minneapolis, and Milwaukee. Have you any comment to make on it? Mr. Marvin. We have included in the estimates funds to do that. We want to restore that work. However, that pertains to the field and has nothing to do with this part of the estimates. The Cuarrman. We will come to that later, then? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; I will invite you attention to it when we come to the item. Before closing my remarks on the statutory roll, I wish to ask that these printers, and this mechanic, be placed on a par with the other men. Mr. McLaveuut of Michigan. Which mechanic is that? Mr. Jonzs. Item 31—one skilled mechanic, $840. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. The particular man there is certainly en- titled to $1,200. He is a man we could not replace from any carpen- ter trade in the country without a long training to do the particu- larly difficult work of making kites. Mr. Hurcutnson. Is he just as good a man as 28—one skilled me- chanic at $1,300? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; in his line. Mr. Hurcurnson. Then why should you make it $1,200% Mr. Marvin. I have only asked you to make it $1,200. Mr. Tincuzr. What does the item “28” at. $1,300 man do! Mr. Marvin. That is one skilled mechanic at the central office at $1,300. He is a carpenter? Mr. Catvert. He is our foreman carpenter. Mr. Marvin. That is what I thought; I was not sure. But only in this one respect, that he is our foreman, is there a reason the me- chanic in the field should be paid less than the one skilled mechanic at $1,300. Mr. Trncuer. What is number 28’s name? Mr. Marvin. That is Mr. J. A. Balster, I believe. Mr. Tincuer. What is number 31’s name? 96 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Marvin. Dahl Baxter. ; Mr. Hurcurnson. You say number 81 is a man in the field. Do you pay his expenses when in the field? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; we pay no expenses. Mr. Hutcuinson. You pay no expenses to anybody ? Mr. Marvin. Only when traveling. Mr. Hurcuinson. He is located at one place? Mr. Marvin. Yes, he is located at Drexel, Nebr. Mr. Lesurer. How much printing do these printers have to do each day?- Mr. Marvin. I have brought samples of their work with me. They get out these leaflets and bulletins that we issue every day at the different stations. Here are the different kinds of publications we issue. They vary somewhat at the different States. This work has ot to be done on the minute. The observations shown on the maps issued at statioris all over the country are made at 8 o’clock in the morning, and at half past ten or eleven they are ready for delivery to the people. That is rapid work. Sr aaa A part of a whole lot of these forms is set up right along ? Mr. Marvin. It is set-up work, but changes require busy printing work during the rush hours. After the maps and bulletins are issued they have this kind, the State climatological reports, to do. These are prepared in the field, one of each of these each month, at certain of the field stations. We have 200 stations, and there are only, as you will notice there, a comparatively small number of printers, about 30 altogether. As a rule one printer does the work on two State reports. ~ The next item of the estimates, item 52, the general language re- mains unchanged. Item 53 is for the maintenance of the printing office in the city of Washington. There is a slight increase of $2,200 asked for in that item. Mr. Jonzs. Where is that? Mr. Marvin. That is on page 28, at the top, General Expenses, Weather Bureau—Continued, item 53, “ For necessary expenses in the city of Washington incident to collecting and disseminating meteoro- logical, climatological, and marine information, and for investiga- tions in meteorology, climatology, seismology, volcanology, evapora- tion, and aerology, $116,190.” Mr. Jones. That is $116,190? Mr. Marvin, Yes, sir; an increase of $6,940. Mr. Jones. That is the whole thing, is it not? Mr. Marvin. Item 53 is for expenses in the city of Washington. Mr. Jonrs. What I would like to know is this: We have gone over this statutory roll. You have this for maintenance. It is not item- ized at all. It is $116,000. It is itemized down below here, em- ployees? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. It is the same form as in -previous years. for appropriations of this kind. ne Jones. And none of those items are included in this statutory roll? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; it is an entirely separate statement of ex- penditures. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 97 Mr. Tincuer. You had $109,250 in 1920 that was spent under this item. Would it not be possible to itemize that for the committee? Mr. Marvin. The actual manner in which that was.spent-has been itemized. Mr. Tincuer. I guess it is right on that page, is it not? Mr. Marvin. Yes; it is itemized. _Down at the bottom you will see that we spent for salaries so much money, and so much: for stationery, equipment, and material, telephone and telegraph and ‘ miscellaneous items. : Mr. Jonzs. You expended for 1919 $102,503 for the same things that you ask for now $116,190, is not that true? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jonres. Why do you ask for this additional $6,940 increase in what you estimate for 1921 over what you expended in 1919? ‘Mr. Marvin. The addition is required for proposed extensions of work in the field which we explain later in the estimates. Mr. Jonss. $10,000 of it is in salaries, and then you deduct the dif- ference from your salaries? Mr. Marvin. Those extensions of work in the field necessarily en- tail more work at the central office in compilation, study, and super- vision. We ask for $6,940 for salaries, $5,500 incident to the vessel reporting work in the field, and $1,440 is for the work involved in taking over the control of certain work in the field that is being con- ducted by the Bureau of Plant Industry. It is meteorological work. The administration of these two lines of work—the vessel reporting and the western planes observations now controlled by the Bureau of Plant Industry—justify an addition in the central office expenses of $5,500 in the one case and $1,440 in the other. Mr. Jones. What I want you to explain is: You expended in 1919 for 29 employees $46,232.17 ; now you are asking in your estimates for 1921 for 28 employees $56,700, almost $9,000 more. Mr. Marvin. There is a hiatus there of one year. The amount we expended in 1919 and what we expect to spend in 1921 are shown; no figures are shown for 1920, the current year, and they must come in to clear up the comparison. Mr. McLaveuturn of Michigan. You propose to employ fewer men than you did in 1919, and with a great deal more work, you say, and you. performed that additional work by paying your men about $10,000 more money. Mr. Marvin. The comparison must be made with the 1920 appro- priation and the 1921 estimate here, I think. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. The work has increased over what it was in 1910, has it not? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. You are doing it with fewer men? The Cuairman. According to your statement, you propose to pay $10,467 more to 28 men in 1921 than you did to 29 men in 1919. There will be an increase in salaries there, will there not? | Mr. Marvin. There has been an increase of salaries during 1920. The Cuarrman. I mean over 1919. , Mr. Marvin. Mr. Calvert will explain this. Mr. Jones. It is carried on here as temporary employment, and now you want to make it permanent employment. , 164315—20——7 98 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Marvin. The temporary employees are carried part of the time, of course, and it makes the total number appear larger. Mr. Jonzs. In 1919 you expended $102,503.45, in 1920 the appro- priation allowed was $102,250; that is right, is it not? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. E ee Mr. Jonxs. And for 1921 you ask $116,190; that is right, 1s it not? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; that is an increase of $6,940. Mr. Jones. Over 1920, an increase of almost $14,000 over 1919. Mr. Marvin. That is the increase which came in 1919 and 1920. Mr. Jones. Yes; and nearly $10,000 of that increase is in salaries, with a less number of men in the period of the years 1919, 1920, and 1921. Mr. Marvin. I do not think\we can make that comparison, unless we consider 1920. Mr. Jonzs. That is a fact, is it not, from your statement that you have rendered here? Mr. Marvin. It is a comparison on account of these temporary em- ployees. Mr. Jones. Yes, I know. : Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. How many were temporarily em- ployed in 1920? ; . Mr. Marvin. The employment of the 28 men in 1921 includes, of course, this estimate of the increase of $6,940. The question is simply whether the appropriation of $109,250 which we had last year should not be increased $6,940 in order to take over this vessel reporting work and the western planes observations of the Bureau of Plant Industry. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. I can see how there should be this additional work, Doctor, but you are doing it with fewer men than you had before when you did not have it. Mr. Marvin. The seemingly fewer men there is explained by the fact that many of these men in 1919 were temporary men. Mr. Trxcuer. This shows how many were temporary, one tem- porary, seven part time, one temporary and one temporary. ; Mr. Marvin. That was during the war time, as you see, gentlemen, and some of our men in the central office were on military duty at that time, and we had some temporary men and part time men. Mr. Catvert. As a matter of fact, the average of the number of men employed during that time was not over 25; the number en- gaged at any one time was not over 25. Mr. McLaueuurw of Michigan. Do you not account for a part of that increase that you ask by the fact that you have increased some of the salaries that appear in that first column ? : Mr. Marvin. No, I do not think so at all. These changes that occurred in the rolls during 1920 belong to the 1920 estimates. Mr. Jonzs. This first column shows the rate you will pay them in 1921 over what you paid them in 1919? Mr. Marvin. The first column shows what we are going to pay next year. Mr. Houtcurnson. Is that an increase in there, or is that the same as it was last year? Mr. Marvin. We ask to have it increased $6,940. Mr. Hurcurnson. On any one item, or is that on all of them? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 99 Mr. Marvin. It is on the general item, $109,250. We want that increased $6,940. Mr. Hutcuinson. That means additional men—not an increase of each one of these men’s salaries? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; it is not for promotions; it is for addi- tional men. Mr. Hutrcuinson. In other words, the work in the Weather Bu- reau has not been increased in the last four or five years, has it? Mr. Marvin. The work has increased but the pay of the office force on this roll has remained nearly stationary. Mr. Jones. Let me get that understood. I do not know whether I understand you. On page 28, Mr. Marvin, under the column “Rate,” you have salaries there for meteorologists and so on, pro- fessor of meteorology, and so on down the line. It is not totaled. Are those the salaries you are paying now? Mr. Marvin. Practically the salaries we are paying now; yes, sir. Mr. Jones. What did you make that up from, from the salary Ll mls now, or from the estimated pay roll that you propose to make ? Mr. Marvin, That is made from the pay roll we are working under rows with the addition of several new places that we are asking for ere. Mr. Jonrs. Then that is based on your requests, and not on your pay roll? Mr. Marvin. Yes, on our requests based upon estimated additions to the present roll. Mr, Jones. That is what I am trying to get at. It is not what you are paying now? Mr. Marvin. Partly, but it is an estimate. Mr. Jonzs. Have you got a list of what you are paying these same men now? Mr. Trncuer. There it is there. Mr. Jonzs. That is what they contemplate paying. You have esti- mated in here for one meteorologist at $3,960. Have you got one man at that salary now? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jonzs. You have a meteorologist at $3,500. Have you one at that price now? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jonzs. You have another one at $3,250. Have you one at that price now ? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. Then you have another one at $2,160. Have you one at that price? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. One at $1,800? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir, but we wish two new places at that salary. Mr. Trvcuer. They have three at $1,800 and they are asking for five. , Mr. Jones. You have three at that salary now and you are asking for two new ones. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Raney. There has been no increase in salaries, but the in- crease of $6,940 is caused by four new men. 100 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincuer. You have a lithographer at $1,500. That is some- thing you intend to add? You have not that now? Mr. Marvin. That is another case of a temporary employee. Here is the statutory roll which gives us a lithographer for $1,200. We worked months trying to get somebody to accept that salary as a lithographer. We could not get one to accept it. We had to take a man and pay him $1,500 out of this lump fund, and we kept him for a little while and dropped him when we could cut off some of the work, but in the meantime the money for the $1,200 place on the statutory roll was going back to the Treasury, and it was difficult to do the work, and, in fact, we had to drop some of the work later. The Cuarrman. In this connection it may be well to have an ex- planation of this table, and a statement by what authority it is in the record. Mr. Harrison. I think we ought to make it clear, Prof. Marvin, that the form used in presenting these statements is prescribed by the Treasury Department under a provision in one of the appropria- tion bills. We have no discretion in the matter. You will note that the statements show the expenditures for the last completed fiscal year, in this case the fiscal year 1919. I will have inserted in the record a copy of the law which requires this statement. (The statement referred to follows:) [Act. Aug. 1, 1914, 38 Stat., 680.] AMENDMENT OF SECTION 6, ACT AUGUST 24, 1912, CHAPTER 355. Sec. 10. That section 6 of the sundry civil appropriation act approved August 24, 1912, is amended to read as follows: “Src. 6. That there shall be submitted hereafter, in the annual Book of Estimates following every estimate for a general or lump-sum appropriation, except public buildings or other public works constructed under contract, a statement showing in parallel columns: . “ First, the number of persons, if any, intended to be employed and the rates of compensation to each, and tht amounts contemplated to be expended for each of any other objects or classes of expenditures specified or contemplated in the estimate, including a statement of estimated unit cost of any construc- tion work proposed to be done; and “ Second, the number of persons, if any, employed and the rate of compensa- tion paid each, and the amounts expended for each other object or class of expenditure ard the actual unit cost of any construction work done, out of the appropriation corresponding to the estimate so submitted, during the com- pleted fiscal year next preceding the period for which the estimate is submitted. “Other notes shall not be submitted following any estimate embraced in the annual Book of Estimates other than such as shall suggest changes in form or order of arrangement of estimates and appropriations and reasons for such changes.” Mr. Rosey. Let me ask you right there—in 1919 we appropriated $109,250. Mr. Harrison. That is 1920, Gov. Rubey. Mr. Rusey. The same in 1919. In 1919 the appropriation was $109,250. Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. Mr. Rusey. This last column here, “ Expended 1919,” totals up $102,503.45, or a difference of $6,746.55, but they turned that $6,746.55 back into the Treasury, did they not? Mr. Harrison. All unexpended balances go back into the Treas- ury. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 101 Mr. Rusey. Then you actually expended the $102,000? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. You gentlemen appreciate that we have to allow some margin. There is a law which makes it a criminal offense to exceed appropriations, and at the beginning of the year we have to apportion our funds in such a way that we will not exceea them. There is always an unexpended balance in every appropria- tion, but the amount will vary in each case. We have to protect ourselves. Then men do not want to go to jail. _ There are many explanations why the full amount appropriated is not expended. For example, places may be provided for new employees, and it may take us three months to get the employees. That means that we have a salary charge for only nine months of the year. Then there are temporary employees. There are eight temporary employees shown in the table before you. Mr. Russy. You have estimated for $116,190. Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. Mr. Rusey. I will ask you is it probable that at the end of the next fiscal year, 1921, for which this is appropriated, you will not have expended quite all of that sum? Mr. Harrison. That is entirely probable. In one year under the food and drugs act we turned back into the Treasury nearly $100,000. Mr, Rusry. There is another point about it and that is this: We make these appropriations along in January, and the bill which is passed and becomes a law goes into effect the following July, and you have some four or five months there in which to get ready for the Ist of July and find your men if you can find them. Mr. Harrison. Except for the last two or three years when our appropriation bill became a law around October or November. There is another thing which ought to be considered. We begin making these estimates up in July. Just think of the difficulty of having to estimate exactly what our expenditures are going to be at the close of the next fiscal year, nearly two years from the time we began to make up our estimates! I think you gentlemen should bear that in mind in-considering these matters. They are estimates. They are the best estimates we can make, based on long experience, but it is an exceedingly difficult undertaking. Mr. Rusey. While I am on that proposition I want to call your attention to the estimate there set forth on page 28. It shows here the appropriations for the previous years. It shows the appropria- tion for 1911, so much, and then it goes on and shows the estimate for 1912, $114,000, and then back in the first column it shows the appropriation for 1912, $106,000. Now, for the benefit of the com- mittee I think you ought to reverse that whole business and put down your estimate first, and then on the opposite side, on-the same line, you ought to have the appropriation made for that year. Mr. Harrison. We will be glad to do that next year, Governor. Mr. Rusey. You have got to start in there and look backward and downward to find out what the appropriation was. Mr. Harrison. If you will follow this column you will see, for instance, the appropriation for 1911, and then the next item is the appropriation for 1912. Mr. Rusey. You ought to put the amount estimated for in the first column, and the amount appropriated in the next column. Mr. Harrison. We will do that next year. 102 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rusey. It would be more convenient for the committee in look- ing them over. : : Mr. Harrison. We will be glad, indeed, to make any changes in these estimates that the committee may suggest. Our sole desire is to put them up in the most satisfactory way and to give the com- ‘mittee the information it desires. We will do that next year, Gov. Rubey. This is the first time these tables have appeared in these estimates. They were inserted at the suggestion of Mr. Haugen, Mr. Rusey. In looking over these estimates, I find in the Bureau of Markets that they followed that plan of putting the estimates in the first column, and you put them on the same line. ; Mr. Harrison. We will be glad to comply with that suggestion next year. Mr. Marvin. This appropriation of $109,250, you will note, has been in effect since 1917; that is, the fiscal year ended June 30, 1917. Mr. Rusey. You have not had any increases? Mr. Marvin. We have not had any increase, but now we ask for an increase of $6,940. The Cuarrman. Are there any further questions on this item? Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What is this new work that you are going to do in connection with the Bureau of Plant Industry? Mr. Marvin. A few years ago the Bureau of Plant Industry, in connection with the problems of determining the best processes in dry-land farming, put up certain stations on farm lands in the West, in the semiarid regions, for determining the evaporation of water and temperature conditions at points at which the Weather Bureau had no stations, and for which we could not furnish specific meteoro- logical data that they needed in these investigations. The work has been going on, and they simply made observations in connection with that study. It is important to continue that work and to assemble and collect the meteorological observations and publish the results. That is properly the function of the Weather Bureau. Mr. McLaven in of Michigan. Item 53. Mr. Rupsey. That is an increase in force necessary to carry on that work, for which you ask an increase of something like $69,000 in that item. Mr. Marvin. In that item; yes, sir. It is a part of that increase, but the amount intended for investigations is ‘very small. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Previous to this time, then, the Bureau of Plant Industry has been making those observations itself, and your bureaw has had nothing to do with them? Mr. Marvin. We have had nothing to do with them. Plant In- dustry men have been making the observations, compiled the data, and studied it to a certain extent, but in its present form it is un- available for general use. Mr. McLaveuturn of Michigan. Why unavailable? Mr. Marvin. It has not been published. It is the duty of the Weather Bureau to take up and publish that sort of observation work, and under an agreement with the Chief of the Bureau of Plant Industry, and with the approval of the Secretary’s office, it is pro- posed to transfer that work to the Weather Bureau, which will have to have some additional appropriation for the purpose. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan, At these several stations the Bureau of Plant Industry has had men to do that kind of work? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 103 Mr. Marvin. They are making those observations yet, and will continue to do so, without any expense. Mr. McLaveu.in of Michigan. Until you take them up? Mr. Marvin. And after we take them up. The two bureaus will cooperate.. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Then your representatives and the representatives of the Bureau of Plant Industry will both be there doing the same work? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; no representative of the Weather Bureau will take the observations. We will continue to use the plant in- dustry men in the field to make the observations, but the records will come to us. You will notice the expense here is in the city of Washington for that work. The observational work in the field costs very little, simply for material, forms, and records, The work will come into the office, and we have asked for $1,440 for the services of one man in connection with tabulating, compiling, study- ing, and publishing the data. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. Up to this time, into what office here have those reports been made? Mr. Marvin. The Bureau of Plant Industry; but they have never been ‘published; they have been used only in connection with one project for which the observations primarily were taken. Mr. Harrison. Professor, have you made it clear that the Bureau of Plant Industry has not employed anyone to do this work solely ? As I understand it, it has been done incidentally by the men at these field stations of the Bureau of Plant Industry in the course of their regular work. Mr. Marvin. I did not so state, but that is the fact. The men at the field stations of the Bureau of Plant Industry are there for other purposes, and have done this work incidentally, and will con- tinue to do the other work just as heretofore. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. The work has been satisfactorily done? : Mr. Marvin. We think so; yes, sir. It has been under the super- vision of a very competent man. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. You do not propose now or at any time to put any of your agents there? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; not at all, because as long as they are willing to furnish us Mr. Harrison. It merely transfers the supervision of meteorologi- cal work to the place where it really belongs, namely, the Weather Bureau. Mr. McLavenun of Michigan. You keep the records here? Mr. Harrison. We keep the records here. Mr. McLavenutin of Michigan. The reports made by the agents of the Bureau of Plant Industry? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. Of course, the work will be supervised by the Weather Bureau, and they will suggest forms on which the reports should be made, and will improve their character so that they will be generally useful in connection with meteorological work. This meteorological work ought to be done by the Weather Bureau, in cooperation with the Bureau of Plant Industry. It is simply an attempt to put the work where it really belongs and to avoid any duplication of effort. 104 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. ‘Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. It looks to me like it may lead to a duplication of effort. Mr. Harrison. Not when it is supervised by the Weather Bureau. Mr. McLaventrn of Michigan. It will, if all of these meteoro- logical investigations they are making out there are being made by the agents of the Bureau of Plant Industry, and later will be carried on by the agents of the Weather Bureau who later will be employed there from the Weather Bureau to do that work. % Mr. Harrison. That is not in contemplation at all, Mr. McLaugh- n. Mr. Marvin. Mr. McLaughlin, that observation work is practically: the same as what we are doing all over the United States in a similar way by men who receive no compensation at all. We have nearly 5,000 stations in the field where we obtain abservations somewhat similar to these, for which we pay no salaries whatever. The men are public-spirited gentlemen. They make observations once a day or oftener, and receive no compensation. In this case the men of the Bureau of Plant Industry make the few observations a day re- quired, in addition to their other duties, which absorb practically all of their time. We take the results of those observations and make them useful in meteorological science. The results of the observa- tions are the things that the Weather Bureau takes over now. The actual reading of the instruments will be made by the members of the Bureau of Plant Industry, for which they receive no additional compensation. There is no intention to expand that work particu- larly, and all it is going to cost you is this $1,440 in the central office administration of that work, and there is $900 for the work in the field, in the maintenance of the instruments, and occasional travel to inspect the equipment at stations, and incidental expenses of that sort. Mr. McLaventtn of Michigan. Do.they find by their observations that different conditions exist one year from another, and so on? Are there not certain settled well-known conditions out there, or in a brief time can be known? Mr. Marvin. Those conditions have never been minutely studied in connection with the operations of farming in semiarid regions, where it is necessary to conserve every ounce of rain that falls, and it was necessary to institute these stations in order to collect definite information along that line. Now, the data collected so far has been of value to’ the dry-farming work. I am not prepared to speak in regard to the dry-farming operations themselves, but the meteor- ological conditions in connection with it change year after year, and they want a sufficiently long record to show what the fluctuations are from year to year, and on what basis dry farming can be advocated and prosecuted successfully over a long time. The Cuarrman. In regard to this figure, $6,940, it is proposed now that the service shall be paid for out of that fund instead of the Bu- reau of Plant Industry’s fund? Mr. Marvin. There is only $1,440 in that. The Cuarrman. To be paid by your bureau? Mr. Marvin. By my bureau. There is $1,440 to be paid by my bureau in Washington to enable us to take over work in dry-farm- ing sections. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 105 The Cuarrman. Has any reduction been made in the Bureau of Plant Industry ? , Mr. Harrison. There was no reduction because, as I explained, these people in the Bureau of Plant Industry are merely doing: the work as a part of their other duties. They’ are not employed to take these observations. They are employed for other purposes, se study of scientific problems in connection with dry-land agri- culture. : The Cuairman. You propose to employ help in your bureau to: do the work that is being done by them? i Mr. Harrison. No; as Prof. Marvin indicated, we do not expect. to employ any people to do the work. The Cuarrman. You increased it $1,440? Mr. Harrison. That is in connection with the office here, and involves the supervision of the work, the checking and compilation ‘of the reports, and putting them in form for publication so that they will be available for use in connection with general meteorologi- cal matters. The information has been used solely heretofore by the Bureau of Plant Industry in the study of its scientific problems. The purpose of it is to make these data available for general use. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan, Will you be able to dispense, then, with the services of anybody in the Bureau of Plant Industry here who has been receiving and keeping those records? Mr. Harrison. No. sir; we will not, Mr. McLaughlin. If you wish to go into the details about that, Mr. Taylor, when he comes before you, will explain the situation. The Cuairman. Is this $1,440 for the compilation and dissemina- tion of the information. Mr, Harrison. It is for compiling and putting it in shape and checking up the reports as they come from the field stations of the Bureau of Plant Industry. The Cuairman. Was that done before by the Bureau of Plant Industry ? Mr. Harrison. Yes, it was done in the regular course of their investigations. The Cuarrman. Why should there not be a corresponding reduc- tion in the Bureau of Plant Industry? Mr. Marvin. I do not think the Bureau of Plant Industry has done all they would like to have done with the data. The Cuarrman. You propose to enlarge upon the service? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; we propose to collect those reports that have been made in the past, and continue them in the future, and put them up in tabulated form and publish them so that they will be available for students of agriculture. The Cuarrman. What was done in the past? Mr. Marvin. Nothing but making and recording the observations That is the point. It has not been done in the past as completely as it should have been done. The Cuairman. Of what value were they if they were not com- iled ? " Mr. Marvin. They were used by the particular individuals that were actually engaged on that work, but because they were not pub- lished and are not in systematic form, they are not available for the 106 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. general study of agriculturists at experiment stations and elsewhere who are interested in that work. We want to get them together and put them into our monthly publications along with other meeoro- logical data, so that one can have these reports hereafter, not only the past reports, but the new ones. ‘That is the reason it 1s imprac- ticable to consider a reduction. The Cuarrman. Then it is to compile, publish and disseminate the information; is that it? : Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. Rusey. The total cost will be $1,440? Mr. Marvin. $1,440 in the city of Washington. That brings us, Mr. Chairman, to item 54, “for the maintenance of a printing office in the city of Washington for the printing of weather maps, bulletins, circulars, forms, and other publications.” The Cuarrman. There is an increase of $2,200? Mr. Harrison. An increase of $2,200. Mr. Marvin. We ask for that in order to meet the great increase in the cost of paper, ink, and printing supplies. Everything that we. pay for must be paid for at a higher rate now than formerly. It is a small increase. Item 55 is “for necessary expenses outside of the city of Washington, incident to collecting and disseminating meteorological, climatological, and marine information, and for in- vestigations in meteorology, climatology, seismology, volcanology, evaporation, and aerology.” ; There is an increase in that fund which has been alluded to in the previous remarks a number of times. In the note at the top of page 80 this increase is explained. It says there that there is an apparent increase of $69,200, but an actual increase of $70,400, be- cause $1,200 has been transferred to the statutory roll. The increase is for severa] different items of work as follows: (a) Rehabilitation and normal growth of the regular forecast and warning work of the bureau, which has fallen behind and been curtailed under sta- tionary appropriations during war conditions and high cost of supplies, services, etc. ‘ (b) Extension and betterment of the vessel weather-reporting service in the Gulf and Caribbean Sea, also to extend this service to the Pacific coast, where it has been needed, but only now practicable by the presence in these waters of merchant vessels equipped with wireless. (c) Enlargement of the fruit frost work. (d) Inauguration of 48 to 72-hour advance rain forecast at certain times and in certain places for more effective spraying of orchards. (e) Extension’ of the cattle region service to Montana for aiding in the rais- ing of live stock by reporting weather and grazing conditions, giving notice of damaging storms, etc. The Cuarrman. What is the character of the service last men- tioned ? Mr. Marvin. In the cattle raising regions we secure a number of reports from the ranges and grazing tracts occupied by cattle that show the amount of precipitation and the general weather con- ditions there during the summer time, to determine the availability for these animals of field food, and grazing. In the winter season we keep the cattlemen informed as to the severe weather conditions so that they can herd up their stock and give them protection from the severities of the weather. It is a very important service, The Cuarrman. Can you state an instance where you have been of particular service to the cattle people out there? ‘AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 107 Mr. Marvin. This is for an extension of that work in Montana. We have this work in Oklahoma, Texas, the Pan-Handle region, and Colorado, and the stockmen think a great deal of it. The Cuarrman. Is it possible to forecast as to the storms with any degree of accuracy in a particular locality ? Mr. Marvin. We do that, Mr. Haugen, so successfully that the people are clamoring for this service. We do not claim to be in- fallible. There is not any doubt in my mind about the value of the service. It is certainly beneficial, and the economical value of it to the cattle raising industry is unquestionably large. They save thou- sands and thousands of dollars. One forecast of cold weather, for instance, in the northwest has saved thousands of lambs. We received testimony of that from the people in the field. The Cuarrman. For instance, when you forecost the weather con- ditions in the northwest, does that mean a particular locality or one quarter of the continent? Mr. Marvin. In the case of cattlemen say, whenever they receive a report of very cold weather or snow they send out their herdsmen and bring in their cattle and give them protection, those that are weak and feeble. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. In the State of Montana, where you are going to establish this work, how many observation stations will you have? Mr. Marvin. There might be half a dozen stations or more added to the work in the field. Those stations simply report weather and temperature conditions by telegraph, and receive a small fee for making observations and telegraphing the reports. 7 Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. They report actual conditions after they arise. Do they make forecasts and predictions of a change of weather? - Mr. Marvin. Those reports show actual present conditions and come into our central office or district center. It is on those reports that we make the forecast of the conditions. These forecasts are sent out from the district center, in that case, probably Helena. Mr. McLauenun of Michigan. Then the observations in Mon- tana will be made at the different stations in Montana and reported where? Mr. Marvin. And reported to Helena. That is the center of that district. These reports will go into that station, be.bulletined, and distributed. Mr. McLaveuin of Michigan. And then the forecasts and pre- dictions will be made up at Helena? | Mr. Marvin. Not exactly. The forecasts of severe and all other weather are made at the district forecast center, which is Chicago in this case, and sent back through Helena to the cattle interests. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. What means do you take to spread the news through Montana so that the cattlemen may know what your information of the coming weather is? Mr. Marvin. It goes first into the newspapers, and then it goes into bulletin cards that are distributed to the cattle raisers them- selves, to owners, to bankers, and to the others who are interested in that industry. We send it to them, and they see that it goes to the 108 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. individual herdsmen who round. up the cattle and give them pro- tection. ; Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Those forecasts are published. in the newspapers. Do you have to pay for those? Mr. Marvin. No, sir. Mr.. Harrison. They are telephoned, too? Mr. Marvin. They are telephoned in many cases. ; Mr. McLavcuun of Michigan, They are disseminated in other ways by cards that you speak of? es Mr. Marvin. By forecast cards and by bulletin. The printing I” spoke of a moment ago includes those bulletins. I think perhaps I have a cattle-region bulletin here. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I was trying to find out. how your forecast reaches those that are interested _in it. Mr. Marvin. Take for instance, at Oklahoma City, where the service is in operation, and at Amarillo. . The cattle industries in those sections are organized to a considerable extent. We place our information at the centers of the industry. The information goes to the bankers, the cattlemen, and stock interests. They see that their constituency are advised in regard to these conditions. It goes to Amarillo, Tex., and other cities in Texas, and each cattle interest is on the mailing list to receive this information from our office at certain places. At certain other stations it is telegraphed directly to some particular individual who agrees to disseminate it. In some other cases, as Mr. Harrison calls my attention to, it is telephoned from the local office at Amarillo, Houston, Oklahoma City, or some of the other stations, to those parties who are on the list, and who we know are interested. You may be sure there is nothing left undone to disseminate this information. Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. After you make the forecast what expense is involved to your bureau in this dissemination ? r. Marvin. Merely the telegraphic expense; in some cases very little. There is very little expense involved in the dissemination after we once get the result and the information to disseminate. The expense to us is in collecting the information and working it up and making the deductions, the scientific deductions from the reports as to ae the information should be. That is the large expense in- volved. Mr. Trycuer. I do not understand yet. You get this information. Kansas has this service, you say ? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; perhaps. Mr. Tincnerr. You have your observatories in Kansas, you have places where they get the information, and then they forward you the information, and you issue bulletins showing what the weather is or going to be. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveu.in of Michigan. You get that information at your central office by wire? Mr. Marvin. In most cases the information comes in by wire. That is a part of the expense. Mr. McLueuuin of Michigan. Then it would not be worth much, unless it did, would it? Mr. Marvin. No, sir. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 109 Mr. Trxquer. You spoke of Amarillo. They have a chamber.of commerce there. Of course, cattle being one of the principal indus- tries, they notify the people of the weather forecasts. Do you know how they get their weather forecast that they depend upon, the chamber of commerce at Amarillo, how they get it there? Mr. Marvin. They get it from the Weather Bureau, I think. Mr. Trncuer. No; I just want to suggest something to you. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that the railroads, for economic rea- sons, are very much interested in keeping the stations informed as to weather conditions# I do not know what project you have for. notifying the chamber of commerce at Amarillo, but I know that they get the information they act upon through the Santa Fe Rail- road stations. They depend upon them for their weather forecasts. Mr. Marvin. The Santa Fe gets it from the Weather Bureau, and they are distributing agencies in that sense in their own interest. Mr. Trncuer. Yes; the railroads are doing that. Mr. Marvin. They cooperate with us to the extent of passing along the good work, and that is true of almost every activity. The rail- roads are vitally interested in shippers’ forecasts and cold-wave fore- casts which affect the shipment of perishable products. The com- mission merchants are interested in them. As soon as the informa- tion is available at the Weather Bureau it is passed over to the rail- road-operating officials, and they pass it down the line. The same is true of commission merchants. Mr. Trncuer. You say the railroads depend upon the Weather Bureau for their forecasts? Mr. Marvin. I do not know of any source of forecast information that is authentic and based on bona fide data that does not originate with the Weather Bureau in the last analysis. The Weather Bureau is the only agency in the Government that is engaged in the practical conduct of meteorological work. No other agency is making authen- tic, reliable observations of temperature conditions, and we do not know of anybody who understands the art of forecasting as well as the Weather Bureau. Mr. Trncuer. I do not know. Suppose they receive a telegram stating that a storm is coming from Washington? Mr. Marvin. That comes from the Weather Bureau, probably. Mr. Tincuer. I do not know but what it comes from the locality of the storm. Of, course, they have to have reliable information. Mr. Marvin. The source of authentic forecasting is lodged in the Weather Bureau. There may be agencies which offer forecasts, but they are not what go over the country generally, as far as I under- stand. Mr. Trncuer. Does your department communicate at all, we will say for instance, with the chamber of commerce at Amarillo, Tex. ? Mr. Marvin. Yes. The official at Amarillo is in immediate con- tact with the chamber of commerce, and we supply many of these chambers of commerce with maps such as you have over her in the lobbies of the House and Senate. The chambers of commerce are most clamorous for information. It is difficult to satisfy their re- quests. : Mr. Jonzs. You have this net increase about $70,000, and you estimate it will be necessary to meet about six different propositions. 110 .AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Have you in your own mind figured out how it is divided among these six different items, (a), (b), (c), (@), (€), and (7), so we will get some idea as to the way you are classifying it? Mr. Marvin. The amounts are not set out in detail. Mr. Jones. About how much of this $70,000 additional would you need under subdivision (a), for instance? Mr. Marvin. Under subdivision (a), about $40,000. Mr. Jones. And under subdivision (0) ? Mr. Marvin. $9,500. Mr. Jones, And (c) ? Mr. Marvin. $9,000. Mr. Jonzs. And (d) ? Mr. Marvin. $7,000. Mr. Jonzes, And (e) ? Mr. Marvin. $4,000. Mr. Jonzs. And (/) ? Mr. Marvin. $900. Mr. Jones. That makes $70,400, does it? Mr. Marvin. $70,400. Mr. Jones. In your tabulated statement—this is simply for in- formation—you have again the same thing called up before as to what was expended in 1919, and your estimate for 1921 still has that lapse of 1920 between, but under the heading of observers and as- sistant observers you have for your estimate for 1921, 38, and you extended in 1919 to 312 persons, temporary and part time, of course. The question I ask is whether you expect to get the same amount of service with 38 permanent employees or observers and assistant ob- servers as you did out of 312 in 1919? Mr. Marvin. We expect to get more. Mr. Jones. Why. Mr. Marvin. I would like to give you, if you will permit me, Mr. Chairman, a statement in regard to these increases that will apply ‘to that question there and to all of these items. This is the question of service. Service is impossible without men. The man power of the bureau is at the lowest possible ebb. During the war nearly 175 Weather Bureau men entered military service. Replacements were made mostly by young boys, in several cases by women and girls in a temporary status. The trained men remaining on duty carried the major burden of the work, and in addition they had to train and instruct the new men. A slight increase in the total number of em- ployees occurred at this time, because it was absolutely necessary in some cases to add two or three inexperienced and untrained men to take the places of one or two who had gone on military furlough. Nearly all the men have now returned to duty. Some of them have not returned because they can get more money outside. The tem- porary men, including the excess, have been let out, and our service has been reduced to the prewar strength as regards the number of men. I would like to ask you gentlemen to recognize how rigidly Con- gress limits my so-called lump sum for salaries. The language of the appropriation reads, “including not to exceed $672,500 for salaries.” Mr. McI.auenuin of Michigan. Where is that? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 111 Mr. Marvin. It is on the bottom of page 29 in the heavy brackets, “including not to exceed $726,800 for salaries.” My appropriation for salaries this year is $672,500. This is already in effect a statutory roll and has been ever since the appropriation of 1915, when this form of appropriation was adopted. At that time the item carried 465 men. The amount of the roll has been slightly increased in the meantime, and so has the number of men employed. We now carry about 483 men. That is the actual roll made upon December 1. The amount of the roll has been slightly increased in the past several years. Mr. Jones. Is that your pay roll or statutory roll? Mr. Marvin. That is the men on this misceilaneous roll, not the statutory roll. We now carry 488 technical and scientific employees on that roll at an average basic pay of about $1,375 per annum. Dur- ing the past five years this average per annum pay has remained nearly stationary. At least 200 ofthe officials which go to make up the average per annum pay are in charge of the 200 stations of the bureau. These are representative men in their communities, and are of coordinate importance and responsibility to postmasters and city officials, and yet their average basic pay is $1,375. I think you must see that this is a state of affairs that should not exist. Moreover, this explanation is offered to refute the charge that ex- travagant increases in pay and in granting of promotions are pos- sible in lump sum appropriations and are prevented in statutory rolls. No maladministration of salary appropriations is possible with the lump sum appropriation of the Weather Bureau. You have given me a form of appropriation there that absolutely forbids any excess. The Cuarrman. In what respect does it differ from the appro- priations made for other bureaus? Mr. Marvin. The maximum sum that can be expended for salaries is fixed, which automatically limits the maximum number of em- ployees. It is a “not to exceed” amount. Mr. Jones. When that sum was fixed, was it not fixed with a view to reaching the largest possible service, and was it intended that the maximum should be exercised even though the service was not necessary ? Mr. Marvin. That was true at the beginning, but under the stress of the present times and the high costs of service, the slight un- obligated surplus or working reserve normally essential for this kind of a fund has been absorbed. The Cuarrman. Before you get away from lump sum appropria- tions, I understood you to say that it was not in the power of the bureau to advance salaries. Is it not customary to transfer an em- ployee from one roll to another, and’ then back with an increased salary ? Me Marvin. That is absolutely forbidden by law. We can not do that sort of thing. The Cuarrman. I believe it was stated here last year that that was being done. Mr. Marvin. I can not recall any such statement. What I mean to say is that it is forbidden by law to transfer a man from the statutory roll to the lump-sum roll and increase his salary. If we 112 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. do so there must be an entire change of responsibilities and duties. You certainly can not ask me.to take a man who is an assistant in charge of a station, and put him in charge ‘of an important city station, make him move himself and his family to that station and fo pay pin any more salary. There is not any justice in that, r. Hurcuinson. You say you have 200 stations around in differ- ent parts of the country. Is there different pay for different sta- tions? , Mr. Marvin. The pay depends upon the responsibilities and the ability of the man. Mr. Hurcuinson. I was going to take up the Trenton, N. J., sta- tion. We have a splendid service there, and an efficient man. Can you tell me his salary? Do you recall it? Mr. Catvert. $1,800, not including the bonus. Mr. Hurcuinson. Do you know how much help he has? Mr. Marvin. He has two men, I think, and a messenger. Mr. Hurcutnson. That is the best salary you can give that man for the service he does? ‘ Mr. Marvin. That is the best salary we can give. You see, for 483 men the average pay is $1,375, and if I need an extra man I have to demote 10 men $100 apiece to get a new man at $1,000, sim- ‘ply because the little reserve in this salary fund to which you have ‘limited me is now fully obligated. Mr. Hurcuinson. Where is his title in this? Mr. Marvin. He is a meteorologist, he appears as a meteorologist. Mr. Hurcutnson. You have some at $2,880? Mr. Marvin. Yes. Mr. Hutcutnson. Why is the man at Trenton only worth $1,620 -when they get a aes deal more? ‘ Mr. Marvin. The man at Trenton is one among 40 who receive $1,800. Mr. Rupry. And they get a bonus in additon to that? Mr. Marvin. Yes; they get a bonus in addition to that. Mr. Ruseyr. That is $2,040. Mr. Marvin. Yes; $2,040 for the Trenton man. Mr. Jones. Are those salaries fixed according to the station, or according to the length of service? : Mr. Marvin. By the length of service and experience of the man, his ability, and the responsibility of the station duty. There are 75 stations that are practically on a par with Trenton, N. J., in service. There are 40 men, I should say, that are practically on a par with the official in charge of the Trenton station, and those men receive $1,800 apiece. : Mr. Hurcurnson. Do you do that by civil service, or what? Mr. Marvin. They are all ‘civil-service employees. I explained a while ago that the status of the men in their different salary grades is fixed by this efficiency classification. There is no service of the Government, I do not care what branch it is, where greater _care and justice is done than in the Weather Bureau and the Depart- ment of Agriculture in determining the amount of pay and oppor- tunities for promotion of the men. The man at Trenton is in a -place where there are many others like it. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 113 Mr. Hurcutnson. Where is this man located that gets $2,520? What office is that? Mr. Marvin. The official in charge of Philadelphia gets $2,520, as I recall, and the man in charge of the New York station gets $2,520. Mr. Hutrcuinson. Then you do consider the size of the city, do you not? Mr. Marvin. To a certain extent. I stated a while ago that the size of the city to a certain extent determines the responsibilities of the men. The Philadelphia station is what we call a section center, and he takes care of all the observations in the State, and he has a number of other interests to look after than the station at Trenton, N. J., which is also a section center for a smaller State. Mr. Hutcurnson. I do not see how you can keep them. We give more money to men who shovel fertilizer than you do to those men holding those positions. They have got responsible positions. I notice that in 1919 you had 921 men, and this year you ask for 658, and still ask for $56,873.18, the same as you expended in 1919. Where does that go? Mr. Marvin. The comparison, as I said a while ago, in connection with the central office work, that covers a large number. It covers a turnover among 900 individuals employed. The Cuarrman. Would it not be well to state the temporary em- ployees in 1919 and the number now to be employed permanently, so that we may get this correct? Mr. Marvin. You wish a comparison of the number of permanent places we carried in 1919 with the number we expect to carry in 1921. This estimate for 1921 is the best estimate we can make for the permanent number of employees. The CHarrman. We want the reason for the increased appropria- tion for less men than you previously had. Mr. Marvin. You can not make that comparison, for the reason that this condition in 1919 The Cuarrman. It is for us to explain this matter to the members of the House when the bill comes up on the floor. We should have it clearly indicated in the record. By stating the number of tem- porary employees that you intend to make permanent, I take it, will explain it fully. We should have the exact number. Mr. Catvert. I think I can make that point plain to you, Mr. Haugen. As has been indicated before, it is rather difficult to draw any clear comparison from these tables in the form we are required to submit them. Even the men who make them up have difficulty in doing so. But the 921 figure there means the number of individuals that were employed on that roll during the fiscal year 1919. It does not mean that at any one time 921 men were on the rolls. As a mat- ter of fact, the average number on the roll at any one time comes nearer to being 500 than 921. The Cuarrman. If you stated that in 1919 you employed 921 men, and stated the number temporarily employed, and that now for 1921 you propose to employ 658 on the permanent roll, that would account for the increased appropriation. Mr. Catverr. Yes, sir; that is a very fair statement. 164315—20-—-8 I 114 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. You had better state the number here in concise form so we will not have to run through the hearings to get the facts in order to explain it to the membership of the House when the bill comes up for consideration. Mr. Rusey. I have figured it up from this table, counting those who were employed temporarily and those who were employed part time, and out of this 921, 240 were employed either temporarily or part time. ; The CuarrmMan. How many are to be employed permanently in 1921? ; Mr. Marvin. I think we can straighten that out in a statement we will submit. _The Cuarrman. I believe you should prepare such a statement, so that we may have it. Mr. Jonzs. Why was the decided increase from 1919 to what you estimate for 1921, and for what you had in 1920, for meteorologists at $1,620? In 1919 you had seven early with five temporarily employed. You apparently had in 1920 73 permanently employed, and now you ask for 75. Why was the jump from 7 to 73 from 1919 to 1920? Mr. Marvin. That is the number we expect to carry in 1921. Mr. Jones. I say why was the jump from 7 to 73? Mr. Marvin. It was provided in the estimates to take care of the men we had on the 1919 rolls at that time. Those men were in- creased, the number in that particular grade. There were some re- ductions in other lower grades. ‘ Mr. Jones. Then from 1919 to 1920 you jump on meteorologists from 7 to 73. Mr. Marvin. 738; yes, sir. Mr. Hurcurnson. I would like to ask you another question. I notice here you have got $726,800 for salaries. Do I understand you can not apportion that to a certain number of men, for instance, 500 men or 600 men, or fix the salary according to your own judgment? _Mr. Marvin. We can; yes, sir; that can be done, but we must be fair and just to all the men in doing so. - Mr. Hurcurnson. Do you not think you can go to work and give a little more salary to fewer men and get more service? Mr. Marvin. You ask about less men. I have just explained here that the maximum amount of money I have to expend is $672,000. I can not dispense with a single man. In fact, stations are begging for more help. Mr. Hurcurnson. Why can you not? Mr. Marvin. The man power of the stations is at the lowest. pos- sible ebb. We must have more men to extend this service. We are taxed to the utmost to do what we are doing now. We have not had any material increase in this appropriation since 1917. The Cuamrman. Then, Professor, are you contending for an in- creased appropriation over the estimates? You say you can not get along with less men. Mr. Marvin. I am trying to explain that we would use this money for more men; we would increase the number of men we have. The Cuarrman. Do you propose to employ more than 658 men? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 115 Mr. Marvin. No, sir; that number is greater than at present, but the number we estimate for 1921. The Cxairman. The 658 are enough to take care of the service? Mr. Marvin. That is the idea. They are all to be made permanent with the exception of short period or emergency employments that will be required from time to time. Mr. Jones. Nine altogether? The Cuarrman. Why so many temporary employees in 1919 and so few this year? Mr. Marvin. That is simply because every man whom we could employ that had not a civil-service status was called a temporary ' man. He was taken on temporarily because the Civil Service Com- mission could not furnish eligibles. We can not get them now. The turnover during the war, due to military furloughs, resignations, etc., was very large. I have got some so-called temporaries now. Mr. Hurcuinson. Do you have to take the civil service men? Mr. Marvin. Yes; these are all civil service men, if they are per- inanent men. Mr. Hutcuinson. Will you prepare a table indicating the number of temporary men in each instance and the number that have been made permanent? Mr. Marvin. Mr. Calvert reminds me that there were nearly 175 * men who went into the military service. Those places during the war time were temporarily filled by this large number of men you see there. Mr. Hurcurnson. I call your attention to this one item here of ob- servers, assistant observers, vessel reporter, apprentices, and mes- senger boys, $960 to $480. In 1919 you had 187 temporary and 8 Bert time. Now you suggest only 4 part time. That is a reduction of 191. Mr. Marvin. Mr, Chairman, I am sorry, indeed, that there is this confusion from trying to make up from this particular table which we were required to submit to comply with the law and which does not show the real facts of the case. The total number of men in the 1919 appropriation is the number that were actually paid for out of that fund at that time, the number of individuals. They were not all on the rolls at the same time. Mr. Jones. They may have had nine men working for a period of one month. Mr. Marvin. We had many cases where several men held the same position in a short time. Mr. Jonss. I think the suggestion of the chairman is a good one, that you should show how many men were employed on the perma- nent roll and how many were employed for a temporary period. Mr. Marvin. We can do that and will be glad to make the whole matter clear. 116 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. General expenses Weather Bureau. IN WASHINGTON EXPENSES (ITEM 53). July 1 to a ‘i er, 1, stimated, Title. Rate. 1919 | 1919 (fiseal| 1921,” * year 1920). Number. Number. Number, Meteorologist. $3, 960. 00 13 3 3 D 3, 500. 00 1 1 1 3,500 00 1 1 1 Meteorologist... ..- 3, 250. 00 i al 1 Professor of meteorol 2, 880. 00 1 1 1 DO ses cossecnene seid 2,520, 00 1 1 1 Climatologist and chief of division. -| 2,520. 00 1 1 1 Meteorologist 2, 160. 00 21 1 1 Dore-save 1, 800. 00 13 3 5 Do.. 1,620.00 5 5 6 Observer. . 1, 440. 00 1 1 1 DO a ccnesecmcane 1, 260. 00 1 1 1 Assistant observer... 1, 080. 00 1 1 1 ODI oa oso sjaiuiateicivie ayereisimisloiseiciaseieintorsta 1,200.00 |..........-- 1) cetnisesinscs qatervislug instrument maker. . 810.00 |............ 2] 2] DUN OR ADDL aus csencicunncamemaiimdanmete ameamewees 1, 500. 00 2M caceistnswceed|dgdeasacete, Ot ccgesccenecnewsse Seetieae Rene IER RMSE sciec eRe 22 23 25 Salaries permanent employees -- |? $46, 232,17 |8 $50,300 00 | 3 $56, 700.00 Other expenditures ......... -| 49,524. 73 | 2 58,950.00 | 259, 490. 00 Tuned Back Lo Tress yaaa wncmnnnanencancceasnninniinn E «| 6,746.55 |... 2c eee eee edeeee ene eeaee Total of appropriation...........22..0..eceeceeeeefeceeceeeenee 102, 503. 45 | 109,250.00 | 116,190.00 STATION SALARIES, OUT OF WASHINGTON—(ITEM 55). Number. Number. Number, Volcanologist $3,960. 00 1 1 1 Meteorologist 3,960. 00 1 1 1 i 3, 240. 00 3 3 3 Do 2,880. 00 1 1 1 Do 2, 520. 00 8 9 9 Do 2, 280. 00 14 14 15 Do.. 2,160. 00 17 at 18 Do... 1, 800. 00 30 31 35 Doszececes 1, 620.00 59 63 68 Local forecaster . . 1, 440. 00 1 1 1 Meteorologist... 1, 440. 00 7 7 7 Observer. . 1, 440. 00 78 81 87 0. - 1, 260. 00 89 113 119 Me be OF OL OG 1St ete oar jnrnyaiesssninrasizie) ncpacnre oistendloinicintateicinis 1,080. 00 22 22 22 SOT VOI ieee et emcinr eer cntnimcaeeemenatee 1,080. 00 5 5 5 Assistant observer. 1,080. 00 58 51 101 Local forecaster . . .. 1, 000. 00 22 22 22 eeesenree sstaa's 1, 000. 00 2 1 1 eso ieraetaysyaielciardatassisletataletaiss 900. 00 82 BY bese cenenlis 840.00 |......-....- 21 21 Sid) eaRiame Eerie: 720.00 |..-......22- 21 21 sh iain ge RNS aaa la se 600. 00 1 1 1 wistssicisisinieis 00. 00 21 21 21 Hoo nme atts . 540.00 fo... eee. 21 21 aisianeiprerercvels 500. 00 21 21 a1 Peete ass 450. 00, 21 By | eisriselsioos 1,000. 00 fs | re acetceleesa re letersi Beau 1,440.00 }............ 1 1 neltee pigs L200 OD | crn rcrnwewas To ieeeteetans ¥, ' cs: sla}gisisieiereverarererars need DV loceses neces amcesenes i esse] reporter . 160. I MOCHA YEO ccxcuneey axe nee waaveaesee 1,000.00 |............ 1 1 Apprentice..........--.ceeneeeeeeee 720.00 1 5 DOcesiceee 600. 00 7 10 1 Ds vcwisna seatirenterenctespnnecesssnenicseen a easenne 480. 00 24 21 15 11 part time, military furlough. 2 Part time. 3 Estimated. 2 Sy 4 Tabulation shows the permanent commissioned force of the Weather Bureau. The aniount expended on emergency assistanceis never paid to permanent commissioned employees, but is used for the emergency employment of messenger boys, printers, assistant observers, etc., for periods of a few days and very seldom in excess of 30 days. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. General expenses Weather Bureau—Continued. 117 STATION SALARIES, OUT OF WASHINGTON—(ITEM 55)—Continued. \ Tal i sei a + ec. 1, Estimate Title, Rate. 1919 1919 (fiscal i921” year 1920). iz Number, | Number. | Number. WADOPGE : .5.siscis onesie cna vteawived cs secacbessasdacanmencens $600.00 Did esarciviun tonatd | Setearneaiaieeeis DO essere ciesopeie/a cimiciacsisine'a ciclo. ciclose nieiunciniecinciniceiarssisibeleee 480.00 |........-... i 1 MOtal siacissces asccenawaceceoauavooubasacaccecwecee| sesaaeeeenes 501 488 | 521 Salaries permanent employees.............-2--seeeeesee[eeeeee een e ee $665, 596. 49 |1$667,500.00 18721, 800.00 Emergency assistance... ; 330. 33 000.00 | 15,000.00 Turned back to Treasury . 2, D1 8i18i |v ceieisssssieauleikw cweeaedac Total of appropriation..............--..eeeeeeeees 672, 500.00 | 672, 500. 00 | 726, 800. 00 AEROLOGICAL STATIONS, IN AND OUT OF WASHINGTON (ITEM 57).2 | Number. | Number. | Number. Meteorologist cic ccesecssevesceweciweesceseeesereseceees $3, 600. 00 Do 3,240.00 |.... : 2, 880.00 |. 2,280. 00 2,160. 00 1, 800. 00 1, 620. 00 1, 440. 00 1, 260. 00 1, 080. 00 900. 0C 840. 00 1, 200. 00 1,000. 810. 720.00 betes a ia 41 40 93 Salaries permanent employeeS............22--2eeeeeeeee[eceeeecenees $43, 662.35 |1$49, 290.00 |1$134, 660. 00 Emergency assistance ase a-[-- 1, 288. 83 | 11,300.00 13/600. 00 Other expenditures ...... 2.0... ee scence cece eee ween eens 40,490.42 | 134,450.00 | 1142, 760.00 Total of appropriation..........-..---22-ece eee eee[ece eee eennee 85,441.60 | 85,040.00 | 281,020.00 1 Estimated. 2 Tabulation shows the permanent commissioned force of the Weather Bureau under the items mentioned. The amount expended for emergency assistance is never paid to permanent commissioned employees, but is used for the emergency employment of messenger boys, printers, assistant observers, etc., for periods of a ee days and very seldom in excess of 30 days. 8 Part time. Mr. Marvin. In regard to this restoration of service that I have been speaking about, Mr. Chairman, and the necessity for more men, I would like to have you make inquiries as to the necessity for this work. Ask men, for instance, like the Lake Carriers’ Association at Duluth, Detroit, and Buffalo. The Cuarrman. In that connection let me ask you just a few ques- tions about these forecasts. In forecasting a storm do you advise he Pee locality which will be visited by that storm ? r. Marvin. Yes, indeed. n The Cuarrman. How closely? Is it not a fact that at times you forecast storms in certain sections of the country, which are diverted and appear a distance of 100 or 200 miles away from the locality warned ¢ Mr. Marvin. Sometimes that may be true to a certain extent. 118 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. Is it not quite general ? Mr. Marvrn. No, sir; but we do not claim to be infallible, Mr. Haugen. We make a verification average, according to the most fair examination that we can make of the data, of something like from 88 to 90 per cent. The Cuarrman. What does the 88 per cent mean? Mr. Marvin. It means that when we forecast.a cold wave or a “storm in a particular locality that storm will be found there at the time indicated in the forecast 9 times in 10. The CHarrman. By locality do you mean a county, a State, or several States? Mr. Marvin. In the case of storms it may be a State, or in other cases it may be a dozen States. A cold wave that we forecast, for instance, will sweep over a dozen States or 20 States before it dis- appears. Each forecast for a particular locality or State will be verified about 88 per cent of the times. The Cuarrman. If you should forecast a storm for St. Louis, and that storm should be diverted to Galveston, would that be included in the 88 per cent? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; that would be an absolute failure. We would not pretend to count such a thing. The Cuairman. If it was diverted only 100 miles, would not that be included in the 88 per cent? Mr. Marvin. If it came within 100 miles, and if it was a general storm, it would; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Fifty miles? Mr. Marvin. It would be given a proportionate value in the veri- fications. We take into account the percentage of the States that is covered by the precipitation, if it is a precipitation forecast. The Cuatmrman. Of what value is the forecast of the storm to St. Louis if the storm appears within 100 miles from St. Louis? Mr. Marvin. It might not be of much value if St. Louis were not affected by the storm; but if forecasts are verified 88 per cent of the time the benefits that come in this 88 per cent more than offset the failures in the remaining 12 per cent. The Cuarrman., Is it not true that frequently you have forecasted a storm for a certain day that has turned out to be clear, while other days you have forecasted clear weather that have turned out to be stormy? What is true as to Washington is true as to my section of the country and I believe true as to every section of the country. I would like to ascertain the accuracy of these forecasts and what value they are. What are we getting for the money expended ? Mr. Marvin. There is an enormous economic value to the Nation from our service. While the value is enormous, we de not know the amount of saving that our bureau effects in dollars. The Cuairman. That is rather indefinite. Mr. Marvin. The benefit is not so much, Mr. Haugen, in the fore- cast of a little rain that may not come to-day or to-morrow, but the benefit is in the forecast of great storms on the Lakes, the seacoast, and the Gulf of Mexico; the great cold waves that come from the northwest and affect tremendous areas of the country, freezing orchards and fruits. It is the service to these specific interests that is most beneficial. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 119 It is of the greatest economic value to the people. I can not con- vince you from my own statements that these services we are render- ing are valuable.. You asked me, as I understood you, about the veri- fication and what good this has been to the people. I was trying to speak to that point. : Now, as for the need of the service, people who need it are asking us for this extension which we have requested. In the middle of September, about, we sighted a hurricane down in the islands of the West Indies. That hurricane appeared there as the most innocent looking thing. The observations that we had upon which to base our deductions were very meager; but we were immediately on the alert, every man in the Bureau and on the Gulf coast was on the alert at the time of the appearance of this storm, because hurricanes, as you know, are fearfully destructive storms. Well, every 12 hours or oftener we had additional reports; we called for special observations between the regular ordinary observations of 8 a. m. and 8 p. m. That hurricane was headed toward our southern coast. It would move through the Florida Straits, accord- ing to our calculations. It struck Key West with destructive force. We sent warnings well in advance. We have testimonials from the people of that city of the splendid work of warning that was given of the approach of that storm. We could not prevent the storm, but the people there took protective measures to avoid the effects of the hurricane, which they could not have done without our warn- ings. Shipping left the track of the hurricane or stayed in port. As the hurricane went west of Key West warnings were sent to all the stations along the west coast of the Gulf and all intermediate points. For five days that hurricane was moving westward. The fact of the matter is, Mr. Chairman, that our warnings were so effective that from the time that hurricane left Key West we got no reports from it. There were no vessels out in the Gulf to report to us by wireless where the storm was located. We got no reports. Why? The vessels had been told to remain in port, and they did remain in port. They heeded our warnings, which indicated to them the region of the Gulf in which the storm was located. The consequence was that we had only the observations that could come from the coast stations 100 or 200 miles from the storm center. It was very difficult for our forecasters to determine exactly where the center of the storm was. We knew that it was somewhere south of New Orleans, some- where south of the Louisiana coast. The study of the sea and the pressure observations on the coast indicated that that storm was near Louisiana, we could not tell just ‘where. At one time, the conditions led us to believe that that storm was moving closer to the Louisiana coast. We made an announcement accordingly, and we warned all the people to the west of that storm. Warnings were flying at that time on all the west Gulf coast. The observations that came in in the afternoon and that night showed that the storm instead of moving toward the Louisiana coast as we had surmised, and as we were justified in surmising, from the information we had, was really continuing its westward course toward the south coast of Texas, and by Sunday afternoon the storm had reached Corpus Christi. You know something prob- ably of the damage it did there. 120 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The storm was several days in crossing the Gulf, and finally went inland south of Corpus Christi. I could not say how many millions of dollars’ worth of shipping were saved by the warnings we sent out. Every man in the Weather Bureau in the South was on the job. Many of them were in their offices all day and all night. Those men are faithful men; they are worthy of the highest con- sideration for their ability and fidelity. : The Cuarrman. I am interested in knowing with what accuracy these forecasts are made. Mr. Marvin. Those forecasts save millions and millions of dollars, It may be there was some dissatisfaction. We can not quite satisfy everybody. We are not professing infallibility, but we certainly feel confident that we are rendering a mighty service to the Nation. I doubt not but that if those interests that we are serving were asked, they would testify at once to the great value of the service, not- withstanding the fact that we make occasional failures. Mr. Jones. You can not figure in dollars and cents the service rendered, because you do not know what transportation has been saved on vessels in obedience to your warnings. Mr. Marvin. Shipping generally heeds the warnings of the Weather Bureau. Mr. Jones. And the testimonials which we have from the shipping facilities and from the Great Lakes shippers, and those people who are directly interested, what do they say about it? Mr. Marvin. I am prevented, gentlemen, from asking any of these people to say anything to you. If I were to ask the Lake Carriers’ Association, or the chambers of commerce in the cities where we install these weather maps, or any of these people in the. West that are interested in forest-fire protection, if I were to ask them to say anything to you about our work, I am afraid you would consider that I was influencing legislation. There was a law passed at the last session of Congress that would put me in jail if I did any such thing as that. But I do wish you would do it yourselves. I can not bring in the testimony of these people as to the value of this service, but I certainly would like to have you ask the ‘people whom we are serving in these ways as to the value of this service. Ask some of the cattlemen in Oklahoma City and in Texas as to whether our cattle-region service is of any value to them. The Cuarrman. I have talked with a number of cattlemen and have looked into this matter considerably. I did not bring up the subject to criticize the work done by the bureau, because I know of the efficiency in the bureau, but the question is are these appropria- tions justified? Is the service of sufficient value to the cattlemen? That is the reason for my raising the question with what degree of accuracy you forecast these storms? Mr. Marvin. My answer is 88 per cent. For instance, in this forest-fire warning service that we are asking for we will undertak to tell the people, and especially the forest rangers, that the dry conditions and the prospect of winds are very favorable for the inception and spread of forest fires or of the coming of rains that will check forest fires. Now, the percentage of verification there is high enough to make that a very profitable piece of information to these interests. They want that information. They want us to give it to them, and we are trying to get the means to do so. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 121 The CuHarrman. The committee will now recess. We will hear Mr. Marvin further this afternoon. (Thereupon, at 1.15 o’clock p. m., a recess was taken until 2.30 o’clock p. m.) : AFTER RECESS, The committee reassembled at 2.30 o’clock p. m., pursuant to recess. Wearner Bureau—(Continued.) STATEMENT OF MR. CHARLES F. MARVIN, CHIEF OF THE WEATHER BUREAU—Continued. The Cuarrman. The committee will come to order. Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Marvin? Mr. Marvin. Mr. Chairman, when we took a recess I think we were‘ practically through with item No. 55. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Before you leave that, Mr. Marvin, I would like to call your attention to that item, or that subdivision, in which you ask an increase for some work that you are going to take over, that the Bureau of Plant Industry has been doing in the arid regions. You ask for an increase in one of the other items to take care of it. 7 Mr. Marvin. Mr. McLaughlin, that work that the Bureau of ‘Plant Industry formerly performed, and which we are taking over, we will estimate will cost us $2,540. I have explained that in the fund for expenses in Washington we want $1,440 for the central office participation in and supervision of that work. Here is $900 additional for the work in the field. Finally, there is an increase of $200 for traveling expenses in item 56. That makes up the $2,540, which we consider necessary for the conduct of that work. Now, this $900 in the field is for the purchase or renewal of instruments for the maintenance of that work in the field. Mr. McLavcnun of Michigan. I supposed the reports would reach your department the same as they used to reach the Bureau of Plant Industry. In fact, I think you said that those returns would be made to the Bureau of Plant Industry just the same; that they would be made to you also, and that you would tabulate them. They don’t have to be sent twice, do they? The expense of sending them don’t have to be added here, does it? Mr. Marvin. The Weather Bureau, under the proposed arrange- ment, must prepare and supply the forms and the record sheets on which those reports are made and replace instruments that are worn out and have become no longer useful. Mr. McLaveuturn of Michigan. In the first item there is mainte- nance expense. We have provided for that. Mr. Marvin. Which item do you mean? Mr. McLaventrn of Michigan. The first item we spoke of this morning, where you ask $1,440. There is maintenance expense in that and there is maintenance expense here. Mr. Marvin. That is true, the (a) item for the restoration of suspended work. Extension and growth of the work is really a very different class of work from this of these plant industry stations. Mr. McLavueuttn of Michigan. I am speaking about the subdivi- sion f under 55 and carrying with it the note under 53. 122 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Marvin. I will refer to my note on 53. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. In regard to this work that you are going to take over from the Bureau of Plant Industry, or the work you are going to do in connection with the Bureau of Plant Industry, how many items of increase of expenses do you have in connection with that? Mr. Marvin. The whole work requires $2,540. We have work in Washington and work out of Washington; also a small item of $200 for travel. We have divided the amounts of this $2,540 into $1,440 in Washington, $900 out of Washington, and $200 for field travel. Mr. McLaveutn of Michigan. Why do you need any work out- side of Washington? I gather from what you said before that the work in the field is to be done just as it was before, but that the data was to be sent to your office for tabulation. Mr. Marvin. That is true, as far as the work of the observer is concerned, but you must recognize there are expenses for paper, forms, records, and all that, together with instrumental equipment at the stations. Mr. McLaueutrn of Michigan. The instrumental equipment is there, and they are using the same men that you are going to use under the new arrangement? " Mr. Marvin. The instruments will not last forever. There is a certain depreciation which must be maintained. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You mean that you are going to take over the supply and maintenance of those stations, where here- tofore they were supplied and maintained by the Bureau of Plant Industry ? Mr. Marvin. Exactly. We take over everything; yes, sir. We take over the supply and maintenance of those stations. Hereafter the Bureau of Plant Industry will have nothing whatever to do with them, but their man will make the observations and fill in the forms and send us the reports. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I didn’t get that idea from what you said this morning. I thought everything in the field was to be done just exactly as it has been done, and that the data was to be. sent to your hands, to be looked over by your people and tabulated and published. : Mr. Marvin. If that is the impression you got from my previous remarks, Mr. McLaughlin, I would like to correct that by saying that this does contemplate the future maintenance cost in the way of new equipment and to the supply of forms and records on which the observations will be entered and all new equipment as required, all of which will be paid for from our funds hereafter. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. Has the amount that has hereto- fore been allowed provided for that kind of work under the Bureau of Plant Industry been reduced so as to take into account the amount that has been spent by you for that work? Mr. Marvin. I think Mr. Harrison said this morning that there was no reduction for this, and I believe he also said that Dr. Taylor might make a statement in regard to that transfer when he comes before you. Mr. McLaveuu of Michigan. The amount of money involved is small, but it looks to me like a duplication, and you know some of AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 123 these small matters attract more attention on the floor and cause the chairman more trouble than large amounts. Mr. Marvin. That is quite possible. I can assure you that there is no attempt to duplicate or to do any unnecessary work in this connection. The amount is small, as you say, because the work that we expect to do is relatively small, but we think that amount is necessary. We can not do that additional work without some cost to us. Now, elsewhere in the hearings I have tried to impress upon the members of the committee that we are at the last limit as to what more work we can do with the men we have. We are just up to the breaking point now. : ‘ The disposition of the bureau is to render every service possible to anybody that wants the service whenever we can give it to them, and we have taken on work here and there, a little bit at a time, which it would be ridiculous to come to you for an appropriation for, but we can not do that any more. We have come to the place where we can’t take on any more work, no matter how trifling or insignifi- cant it seems. We have got to have a little working balance of money to do any new work with, and my whole increases here are simply to rehabilitate this service in the field and put us in a position to meet the demands as they present themselves to us to-day. During the war we have conscientiously refrained from presenting increases in our estimates here, because the money was needed for other pur- poses. We have.refrained from asking for any increases, and our appropriations have remained nearly stationary. J can not refrain from asking further increases now, because I think the country is entitled to the service, and I think it is proper and just. I am trying to give you exactly the needs as they come to us. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. The chairman of the committee directs most of these matters. We are only humble members of the committee, but I have in mind that it is the duty of this committee to cut these things to the bone, in view of the fact that with all the revenues that are available we are going to have a deficit of over $3,000,000,000 next year. Mr. Marvin. Yes; I know. My duty as an administrative officer, I think, is to cut the thing to the bone, and I believe we have cut them down to the utmost. Now, we have come to the position where we have got to cut off more service. Our men are unable to do more service in the field with the number of men we have. You can readily see that there is certainly a limit to the amount you can do with a given amount of money and a given number of men. The purchas- ing power of money has not increased; it will not pay for as much work and service now as it did a few years ago. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. There is no doubt about that. In- creases of salaries must be provided for; men must have more money. I don’t know of anybody who wishes to see men work for less than they are worth. Mr. Marvin. These are not for increases; these are for additional men; of course if we fill these new places with men now in the serv- ice they will be given the salaries intended for the new places and appropriate to the duties and responsibilities required. 124 / AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. When it comes to additional men, to extensions of service, there may be a question whether this it the time to extend the work. Mr. Marvin. Of course, I will have to leave that to the judgment of the gentlemen of the committee. Mr. Anvrrson, Perhaps you have referred to it already, Mr. Mar- vin, but I notice in the note here on page 30 you have a reference to the inauguration of a daily corn and wheat service. What does that contemplate ? Mr. Marvin. Just what item is that? Mr. Anprrson. On page 30, near the bottom of the note under “e,” you have this statement: For the extension of the cattle region weather service to Montana, where the live stock in 1918 was valued at approximately $1,500,000, and to inaugurate a daily corn and wheat service in sections of the country where large quantities of these cereals are grown, but which the bureau has been unable to. cover because of lack of funds. : Mr. Maryin. That is in conjunction with the cattle region work that we were speaking of this morning, and that has reference to the reporting of weather condtions, both for the cattle region work and for the corn and wheat regions, where those products were not previously grown to any considerable extent. : Mr. Anprerson. What does that service contemplate which is not contemplated by the ordinary weather service bulletins? Mr. Marvin. The service consists in securing reports from outlying stations by telegraph, and concerning weather conditions that show the effect of the weather on the growth of these important crops. These reports are tabulated in little bulletins like this. [Indicating.] I haven’t a corn and wheat report with me now, but it is very like one of these, it gives the weather conditions in the regions in which these crops are grown—corn and wheat. We already have that serv- ice in operation covering all the great grain-growing States, except that now we have to extend it somewhat to cover those regions in which extensions of agriculture of that kind have occurred in the past few years. I said a moment ago that we can not expand any more with the funds that we now have. Mr. Anvrrson. I take it from your statement then that this is not forecasting service at all? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; it is not exactly forecasting service; it is a statement of the conditions in those growing districts, in those agricultural districts. Mr. Purnety. How are those reports distributed ? Mr. Marvin. These reports are distributed very much as I ex- plained this morning, from the outlying stations to the chambers of commerce, the grain exchanges and to individuals that are interested in those products and commerce therein. Mr. Anperson. Do they get them on application ? Mr. Marvin. There are certain people that apply to receive those reports every day, and they are on the mailing list. They are also posted in the exchange. The distribution is made to those regions that can be reached immediately during the day, say. There is no telegraphic dissemination of the information in those bulletins, but it is a telegraphic service for collecting the information. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 125 Mr. Anprrson. Are these bulletins used at all by the Bureau of Eton, Estimates in determining the conditions of the crop at a given time? Mr. Marvin. The Bureau of Crop Estimates makes considerable use of the information in regard to weather conditions that we issue in‘this way, but I can not say that it is a determining factor in their estimates of production. Mr. Anprrson. Then, the principal value of these reperts is to the speculator on the stock market? Mr. Marvin. I have no doubt that the speculator is benefited, but that is true of all the crop information that is issued, whatever the source. This can not be avoided. All persons interested in crops, in- cluding growers, millers, bona fide dealers (and these constitute the larger number) find the information invaluable and demand it. It is a statement showing the atmospheric weather conditions over the country from week to week. It is the authentic statement of the con- ditions as affecting agricultural products. It standardizes and sta- bilizes the information. It furnishes it from an authentic source, and if that were elimited from the Government work, I don’t know how the interests affected would get along without it. Mr. Purnety. What would that elimination mean? Mr. Marvin. That is a hypothetical question, but I think it would mean fictitious reports sooner or later. Mr. Hurcuinson. Professor, do I understand that this is a depare- ment of the Weather Bureau that is reporting the conidtions of wheat and corn? Mr. Marvin. Not the conditions of the crop; no, sir; simply the weather conditions in the wheat and corn and grain-growing States; crops, rice, sugar cane. They take the conditions of the weather on a given day and summarize it week by week in these grain-growing and agricultural States. It is a service that has been in operation for many, many years, and is comprehended in the organic act of the bureau. We would not administer the bureau without doing that, under the terms of the organic act. Mr. Hurcurnson. We have some department now in the Depart- ment of Agriculture that does get these estimates and reports con- ditions of the grain. Mr. Marvin. That is the quantity of production; this is the weather conditions over the agricultural districts as it affects the growing crops. . Mr. Horcuinson. Do they use that? Do they use your informa- tion ? Mr. Marvin. They make use of it afterwards to a certain extent in arriving at an estimate of production, but we give this information on the day of the observation or at the end of a week, as the case may be. Mr. Horcurnson. Supposing it does not rain; it is real dry about all the time; do you report dry weather ? Mr. Marvin. We report all weather conditions, but not the crop estimates. They may refer to our reports of dry weather, but we make the report of the weather conditions, and the Bureau of Crop Estimates untilizes that information. They consult our chart of weather conditions when they make up their quantitive estimates of 126 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. production. But I would like to emphasize the difference in the two kinds of work; we are dealing with the weather and its influence on crops, and they are dealing with the crop production. Mr. Hutcurnson. It looks to me to be a duplication. They have men all over the country—I don’t know whether it is under the farm agents or what it is—that reports the condition of grain. Mr. Marvin. I think they do not report the weather. Mr. Hurcurnson. Does that have any effect on the crops? I mean your reports? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; the reports do not affect the crops, but we state what the weather conditions are in the crop-growing districts. The Cuairman. If you will quote from the report that will give the conditions of the crops. Mr. Marvin. The past week was generally favorable for crop growth and farm work, the last three days being particularly pleas- ant for field operations. The rains are becoming lighter and less general. Showers in excess of one-half inch were confined to the southwest quarter of the State, although there were a few showers north of the Missouri River from Clay to Carroll, thence north to Livingston County. They were heavy enough to locally interfere with work in the counties of Livingston, Clay, Pettis, and Dent. Wheat, rye, and oats harvest has become general; in the southern’ counties thrashing wheat has begun. Farmers are having some dif- ficulty cutting the river bottoms because of soft ground, and a small amount will be lost. The wheat crop as a whole is rated as being good to excellent. This is a portion of a report of Columbia, Mo., issued Tuesday, July 1, 1919. The Cuairman. To whom do you send out those printed reports? , Mr. Marvin. This is disseminated from Columbia, Mo., to every- body that this report can reach within this 24-hour period. The Cuarrman. Do you publish similar reports each day to send to all subscribers? Mr. Marvin. I don’t know what the issue of this is. There are a few hundred copies sent from Columbia, Mo. Now there is a similar report of that kind from other States. Here is a report from Boise, Idaho. These are simply sample reports of the kind that are issued at stations, and they differ from each other. Mr. Purnew. I would like to know how a report of that kind could possibly benefit a corn raiser out in Indiana or Iowa, for in- stance. Mr. Marvin. That is only a sample of the reports that the bureau issues for the crop-growing districts. The fact of the matter is that this is only part of the service designed for the farmer. We give him also a weather forecast for the day in order that he may plan his farming operations. It is difficult to impress upon you the great variety of service that is given by the bureau in the different in- terests and in the different sections of the country. It is an extremely varied species of service, the distribution of the forecast, the dis- tribution of these corn and wheat region reports, the distribution of the cotton region reports, of sugar cane, cattle region reports, and forecasts of frost, to orchardists, stages of rivers, minimum tempera- tures for shippers, etc. Each of these constitute a species of service in particular sections, according to what they are interested in. We AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 127 apply the atmospheric conditions for the benefit of the community in which we disseminate: the information, and we make it useful to them in the conduct of their commercial and industrial operations. The Cuairman. What amount do you estimate for this service? Mr. Anverson. There is an increase there for that service of $4,000. The Cuarrman. How many items are carried for equipments in the bill? Mr. Marvry. This one item—— _The Cuairman (interposing). Is this the only item carried in the bill for equipment for your bureau? ‘ Why don’t you put all of the equipments under one head for the whole bureau ? Mr. Marvin. This form is the same as in every estimate we have submitted before. The Cuarrman. It is now divided up into smaller units. Mr. Marvin. That is true. Now we have a few new items, and we set out these increases based on the purpose of the work rather than material required to do the work because it seemed to us easier for the committee and for Congress itself to see just what we wanted to do. For instance, later on we come to an item—— The CHamrman (interposing). I know; but wouldn’t it be hetter to have it under one item? Mr. Marvin. It would simplify our administration of the matter if the committee prefers to have us do that. We can consolidate this all into that one item. The CHarrman. Why not put all the equipment for the bureau under one item? Mr. Marvin. Just what should we include in equipment, for ex- ample, in order that I may understand just what your idea is? You understand that when a form of bill is once agreed upon we adhere very closely to that form. Now, this form has been running for several years. The Cuarrman. But, after all, it makes more bookkeeping and overhead expense. Whenever you divide it into divisions and bu- reaus there is, of course, an overhead charge. Mr. Marvin. I don’t think so. I think the consolidation of this into one large appropriation would make it more difficult to set forth the purposes of the expenditure. We have segregated these items at the present time in order that they may be considered independ- ently of each other on their respective merits. ; : The Cuatrman. That is proper, applied to certain projects; but when it comes toe equipment for the bureau I take it that all might better be under one head. Mr. Marvin. You refer now to equipment—instruments? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Marvin. And chairs and office furniture? ; The Cuarrman. Yes; everything in the way of office equip- ment. Mr. Marvin. If the committee wants us to make the appropriation bill on that basis, we would be very glad to make it up in that way; but, as I said a moment ago, we have submitted the estimates here in one form, according to the previous practice, and if you wish us to change this form we will be glad to do so. 128 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. I think it is proper to segregate the projects; but, for instance, under the heading of.“ Equipment,” a number of these things might just as well come under one head and thus simplify the bookkeeping and materially reduce the expense. Mr. Marvin. I don’t understand how there could be any artifice of classification or allocation of expenditures which would lessen the cost of doing the work. We now have this appropriation about which I am speaking, of $1,373,480. The Cuarrman. What is the next item? Mr. Marvin. The next item is on page 56, “ For official traveling expenses.” The Cuarrman,. You are asking for $28,200. Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; $28,200. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. This is extra expense for meteoro- logical observations for the Bureau of Plant Industry? r, Marvin. There is $200 added there for traveling expenses in- cident to that work. The Cuarrman. That work is growing? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. The next item is No. 57. Mr. Marvin. Item No. 57, “ For the establishment and maintenance of additional aerological stations, for observing, measuring, and in- vestigating atmospheric phenomena, and the issuing of weather forecasts, advices, and warnings in the aid of military, naval, and civil aeronautics, and in the development of navigation of the air.” That is for the meteorological work in aid of aviation. I don’t think I need to enlarge on the development of aviation within the past two years. We have made certain changes in the language there simply to make the language more specific and include the work that heretofore has been done under the appropriation. The original appropriation for this particular purpose came during the war and was made on the Army appropriation bill. The next year the appropriation was transferred intact to the Agricultural bill. It was first made on the Army bill, because the Agricultural bill had already been passed by Congress and the Army bill was pending and the money was needed immediately in connection with the military operations. As I stated this morning, nearly 175 of our men went into military duty. Many of those men went into that part of the military duty that had reference to meteorology, and our work in military operations was confined almost exclusively to upper air meteorology. We now want to bring that work up to the growing demands of military operations and civil operations in the develop- ment of aeronautics. There is an estimated increase there of $200,000. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. The second paragraph of the note on page 32 says: Through cooperation with the Signal Corps, the Weather Bureau has inaugu- rated a limited forecast and warning service regarding upper air conditions et about 20 Army stations, together with five additional stations operated by the ureau. Now, will you tell us what you do at one of those Army stations? Mr. Marvin. The Army stations are maintained by the Chief Sig- nal Officer at the military post. At the present time those stations make observations with what we call “pilot balloons.” Now, a pilot balloon consists of a little rubber balloon something like the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. °129 children have, only a little bit larger. It is filled with hydrogen and is tied up tight and released. One or two men with an instrument which we call a theodolite watch the flight of that balloon just as far as they can see it. It ascends through the air at a known rate. We know pretty accurately how rapidly it ascends. We obséfve its position with this theodolite once a minute. The position is written ‘down and a graph is made showing the track of that balloon through the air, both in its horizontal wanderings with the air ‘currents and also in the vertical ascent. We chart those observa- tions and they tell us the direction of the motion of the wind in the levels that the balloon occupies successively, and when we get done we can tell you that at 1,000 feet the wind is moving 3 miles an hour or 10 miles an hour in a certain direction; that 5,000 feet up it is moving at a very different velocity and in a different direction. Mr. McLavcuttn of Michigan. How many of those observations do you make in a day? Mr. Marvin. Generally two; sometimes more at each station. We make an observation in the forenoon and another observation in the afternoon. Now, at the present time—when these estimates were written the number was a little less—we have 11 stations making those observa- tions. The Signal Corps had 20 at that time, but they now have 12. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. Are those entirely reliable? Doesn’t the direction and velocity of the wind and the different currents way up in the air change very rapidly sometimes? Mr. Marvin. Not so rapidly as they do at the surface, Mr. Mc- Taughlin. - Mr. McLaveutiiw of Michigan. Not so rapidly, but do they not change quite rapidly? Mr. Marvin. They do change but are more stable than they are at the surface. Now we have made observations of the surface winds twice a day, morning and evening, and that is our telegraphic report. We make these balloon observations twice a day. In the intensive military observations in France, they made observations six times a day with these balloons. — Mr. Jones. Why did they do it? Mr. Marvin. To take account of very local conditions, of local changes, possibly; and to make sure that they are on the right track. Mr. Jones. Then they thought it was subject to change every hour or two, didn’t they ? : Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; they did. They wanted to make sure that there weren’t any changes there. It is not necessary that the changes do occur, but if they did occur, they wanted to know it. Mr. McLaueutrn of Michigan. Can you tell us how they governed their ascents and the operation of the balloons in line with your suggestions, or in line with your findings? Mr. Marvin. The aircraft going into the air learn the direction and velocity of the wind by these reports. The artillery wants to know what that direction and velocity is, even more minutely, becduse they want to know what kind of resistance is operating against their big projectiles; and these more frequent observations are more for artillery purposes than they are for aviation purposes. However, the aviation man wants all the information he can get. 164315—20—_9 130 AGRICULTURE AEPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Is the work you do there so par- ticular and so technical, requiring such highly trained men that it must be done by men in your bureau? Couldn’t it be done by other men employed around that station and engaged in that general work of aviation? Mr. Marvin. Some of the aviation men might be able to do it. They could be trained. When the chief signal officer of the Army had the task of forming a personnel to do this work, he called upon the Weather Bureau to assist him. We spread about 150 men from the Signal Corps throughout our stations and gave them intensive training for a couple of weeks. That happened at the very early stages of the war. 150 men were not sufficient. They wanted to train more men and they established a military school at College Station, Tex. We gave them a high grade meteorologist and assistant and they employed another one, and these men went down and for several months they taught a school of over 300 recruits at College Station in Texas. Gave instructions in these matters that I am speaking of pilot balloon observations, clouds and meteorological observations o all kinds. The flight of balloons is one of the most difficult kind of _observational work in meteorology we have. It is much more techni- cal than reading a thermometer. It takes a very capable man or a pair of men to start up these balloons and get the observations with sufficient accuracy to give us reliable results. The work is difficult. In addition to these pilot balloon stations, my estimates here con- template work with kites. We now have six stations at which kites are flown once a day or oftener, and sometimes continuously throughout 24 hours—36 hours when the conditions permit of it—and with the kites we are able to get observations of temperature, pressure and the humidity in the free air. We get the velocity of the wind in the free air also by means of a little instrument that is attached to the kites. Mr. Purnety. At what altitude—what is the highest altitude at which you can take these observations? Mr. Marvin. With kites? Mr. Purnewyi. Yes; or with these balloons, either one? Mr. Marvin. Some of these pilot balloons have attained altitudes as high as 10 miles, I think, or more. Mr. Purnezri. I mean these balloons that you release. How high do they go? Mr. Marvin. Ten miles in extreme cases. Mr. Purnexy. You can observe them 10 miles away? Mr. Marvin. That has been done. In the ordinary average case the altitude attained is lower than that, say, 4 or 5 miles, and lower, according to the visibility of the sky. Mr. Purnetu. How high can you fly a kite? Mr. Marvin. We have gotten over 4 miles with kites. That repre- sents the limit. Now, the pilot balloon work gives us motions of air up to, say, 50,000 feet. e can go higher in exceptional cases. Kites will go up to 10,000 or 12,000 feet under ordinary working conditions. We frequently get that. We want to use—and I provide in the language here for still a different means of exploring the free air by what we call the “ sound- ing balloon.” The sounding balloon is larger than the pilot balloon, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 131 or we take two big pilot balloons and hitch them together and attach an instrument to the system. The difference between the pilot bal- loon and the sounding balloon is that the sounding balloon carries an instrument. That instrument makes a record wherever that bal- loon goes, and it keeps on going until the balloon bursts. There is a little parachute attached to it that permits the instrument to return gently to the earth, and we recover the instrument and get the record. The sounding balloon goes to very great height in the atmosphere under favorable conditions, over 20 miles in extreme cases. Our mechanicians in the Weather Bureau during the past year de- veloped instruments to be used on sounding balloons which are ex- tremely light; therefore, the balloon that is able to carry them is much smaller. We made observations with these sounding balloons before the war to a limited extent, but the rubber balloons that we needed for that purpose were all obtainable only in Europe. Mr. Purnett. Do peace-time conditions justify the expense and pains that it takes to carry out this work? Mr. Marvin. I can not too strongly emphasize -how valuable the information which the Weather Bureau collected during peace times from its one aerological station before the war proved to be at the time of the war. It was almost the only information of the kind we had of the conditions in the free air within the United States. Mr. Purnety. I can see how that might be very. valuable during the war, but I am asking you whether or not in your opinion this expense is justified during peace times?. Mr. Marvin. I think as a peace-time proposition it is abundantly justified. Mr. Purnety. Is the principal object of it the conservation of human life? Mr. Marvin. The application of the knowledge obtainable only that way to the conservation of human life is one of its vital features. Mr. Pournetw. Is that the principal feature of it? Mr. Marvin. That is, and the advancement of science. We have learned more about the science of meteorology probably since these methods were developed for investigating the upper air—the free air—than we ever knew before, because it has been within only the past 20 or 30 years that means were generally available to get into the upper air with instruments. Of course, there were a few cases where manned balloons went up, but these sounding baloons and pilot balloons that we sent up can be employed in considerable numbers, and nobody is killed or hurt. The balloon goes up with an instru- ment. Once in a while we lose the instruments but not often. Mr. Jonzs. As a general rule, about how far away from where they started does that instrument drop? ; Mr. Marvin. The distances vary; sometimes it is 200 or 300 miles, sometimes it is less. And a peculiar feature about it is the high percentages of returns that we get. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. What is the percentage? Mr. Marvin. I am hardly prepared to say in figures. Eighty-five per cent, I should say. We expect at least 90 per cent of recoveries over the United States. __ in Mr. Jonzs. What is the value of the instrument? » 132 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _ Mr. Marvin. The instrument costs us about $100 at the present time, I think. We used to get them for about half that amount, but ee at the present time costs a great deal more than it used to, Mr. Purnerxu. How long before that information is available, if the balloon goes up several miles? Mr. Marvin. That information is not information that we can use telegraphically. It comes in a day late or several days late, but it serves to coordinate the surface observations of the conditions when that observation was made with the conditions in the free air. Mr. Purnexy. I would like to know what particular value that information would be after it is recovered four or five days after the experiment is made? Mr. Marvin. It tells the metereologist. what the conditions in the air were when he had certain conditions on the surface of the earth. Suppose we knew nothing about the atmosphere at all, except what we could observe at the surface. We are unable to determine the ‘great motions of the atmosphere and the phenomena going on in it without the ability to explore the free air. Now, even if it takes us several days to make an investigation of that kind it has a bear- ing on the information which is before us to-day in regard to surface conditions, because it enables us to understand and interpret thosé surface conditions more fully and intelligently. Mr. Jones. You and I and the rest of us here—suppose we are out in the field to-day; we know it is a drizzly, foggy morning; you send up your observation balloon and two or three days it comes back mae convinces us that it is foggy that morning. What benefit is that? Mr. Marvin. We want to know why it is foggy. If we understand why it is foggy, we know a good deal more about it than we would to know simply that it was foggy. Now, it may be that these instru- ments will show that in a certain condition of the air the temperature was very abnormally distributed and that that foggy condition was the result of that abnormal distribution of temperature, and that that abnormal distribution of temperature was due to the overflow of winds from some particular condition of the atmosphere which we could see on the surface. It might have been the overflow from an area of low pressure or something of that sort; and it is the knowledge of the complete system of circulation in the atmosphere that we are trying to get at by means of these observations. Mr. Jones. We can understand that phase of the knowledge part of it; what we are trying to get at is the benefit to be derived from it. -Mr. Marvin. The knowledge of the laws of the circulation of the atmosphere is the thing that enables the forecaster to make his pre- dictions. If he is ignorant of the fundamental principles governing. the motions of the atmosphere, he is at a loss to make an intelligent forecast. Mr. Purnett. Isn’t the science developed far enough now so that you are able to determine those things without this? Mr. Marvin. Mr. Purnell, we feel that we have done a good deal, but we feel we have not reached the limit. The science of metereology is a most difficult and complex science, because the phenomena of the atmosphere occur on such a gigantic scale. I can not take here in AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 133 the laboratory a piece of the atmosphere and make any approach to studies of the circulation of the air, of the systems that we have to deal with in making the forecast. Those systems of circulation cover thousands of miles in diameter, and we don’t know what the condi- tions are in the vertical altogether. We are trying to find out by these means what the conditions are in the vertical. We have hun- dreds of pictures on the weather map as to what they are at the surface, but we are coordinating those surface conditions with the free air conditions at the same time. It is an important contribution to the science of metereology, and it also enables us to aid those engaged in aviation by telling them the kind of flying conditions they are going to encounter when they go up into the air in the dif- ferent strata. . : Mr. Rusey. We have a mail route from here to New York and one from New York to Cleveland and one from Cleveland to Chicago. Are those aviators getting information from your department from day to day? Mr. Marvin. I don’t think they make a flight without knowing what our forecast is. We give it to them every day. Mr. Rusey. For instance, they leave here at 10 o’clock in the morn- ing; before they leave do they get from your department the weather conditions and atmospheric conditions between here, say, and Phila- delphia and New York? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; We give them the flying conditions, the visibility, and the currents of air that they are likelv to encounter. The inauguration of this work, gentlemen, was taken up in Novem- ber of 1918 with Gen. Kenley, then director of military aeronautics, and forecasts began to be furnished the military service and for the flying operations every day in the regions where they were flying at that time. Under the present administration of the Air Service of the Government under Gen. Menoher, the present Director of Mili- tary Aeronautics, we have extended that system quite a bit. We have divided the United States into 13 zones. Mr. Chairman, I would like to have you examine these charts [submitting charts]. These are the zones in which we are making observations and furnishing forecasts. The Cuarrman. Will you kindly go into details as to this chart and the different zones, in order that it may appear in the record? Mr. Marvin. Here is one more sheet that I will ask you to examine, and which shows on a small map of the United States the location of the present stations of the several kinds, also of those we desire to establish and maintain with the increased funds requested. The other map shows that as a mere matter of convenience we have di- vided the United States into 13 zones, so that we may say to the Air Service, for example, “For zone 2, good flying weather to-day; gen- erally clear sky and good visibility ; moderate varying winds, surface and aloft.” Every day we supply to the Director of the Air Service forecasts for these zones, and they send them to their pilots wherever flying is in progress. : = Mr. Jonzs. These boundary lines of the zones are arbitrarily drawn? Mr. Marvin. They are purely arbitrary. We might have a dozen or less. 134 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Jonzs, Then you are apt to pet the same conditions in part of zone 1 as you do in parts of zone 2? : Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; the forecasts would be similar in that case. Or we sometimes say in the northern portion or the southern or the eastern or western, etc. These forecasts are sent to the Air Service every day. As I was going out this morning at the recess I met an officer in the Air Serv- ice. He had been before the Military Committee, and he said to me, ““We were just telling the committee how valuable the work was that the Weather Bureau was doing in regard to aviation.” That was rather gratifying to me, and we had some pleasant words about the matter. I can assure you that this service is sought for by the Air Service. It is needed by the Air Service to conserve the lives of the flyers and the property employed in aviation. : Mr. Purneitt. What has been the practical effect of it? Has it proven to be effective and valuable to the flyers? Mr. Marvin. I believe so. I have no statistics to show just how good it is) When they wanted to make a trans-Atlantic flight, the very first thing was weather conditions, and the Secretary of the Navy asked the Secretary of Agriculture to have the Weather Bureau help them out on that proposition. We obtained the cooperation of Great Britain to furnish certain reports from overseas and we fur- nished that information. I might say that the start of the flight awaited the advices of the forecaster. He told them when to go on that trans-Atlantic flight. He told them the conditions that they were going to encounter. It proved that those conditions were almost identical with what they did encounter. Mr. Harrison. I suggest that you tell the committee what the Secretary of the Navy said about the flight of the R 34. Mr. Marvin. The same thing is true of the British dirigible. When that came over here that great craft was anchored there in the open air on Long Island. The weather conditions were exceed- ingly important to that airship. We took special observations at different times of the day, and furnished the reports to the officer in command in order that he might safeguard his craft. Finally we sent word to the commander that we advised him to leave at a certain time if he wished to escape a severe storm that was approach- ing. He left at midnight, if you will remember, and safely accom- plished his get-away and the trans-Atlantic flight. The Secretary of the Navy wrote a letter—I haven’t it with me—expressing his appreciation of the valuable service that had been rendered to the Navy and to the British people cooperating with us at that time. I will insert it in the record. - Navy DEPARTMENT, Washington, July 18, 1919. From: Secretary of the Navy. ‘ To: Chief of Weather Bureau. Subject: Visit of R-384. 1. The work done by the Weather Bureau before, during, and after the visit of the British dirigible R-34 has been keenly appreciated by the Navy Depart- ment, and by the British officers connected with this flight. The reports re- ceived were most reliable, and the last report sent by Maj. Bowie on the evening of July 10, undoubtedly was the prime agent in the safe departure of the ship. JOSEPHUs DANIELS. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 135 Now our regular daily aviation forecasts are valuable too, be- cause they tell us so—I haven’t the statistics that will unequivocally prove that, perhaps, but there isn’t any question in my mind that it is a bad proposition for any considerable flying to be undertaken in this country without advices from the Weather Bureau. It is important to the shipping of the ocean that they should seek the information of the Weather Bureau as to the state of the sea over which they expect to sail, how much more important is it to the air- craft that they await the advices that we are able to give them before they venture out and risk everything—risk disaster ? Mr. Rosey. Can you tell us what they are doing in England and France along this same line? Mr. Marvin. The meteorological service in England is in the air service. : Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Right along that line, we have the Air Service in the Army, the Air Service in the Navy, and the Air Service in the Post Office Department. Shouldn’t something be done so that there won’t be a duplication of this work, and some agency take hold of it for all of them? Mr. Marvin. That is just what I wish to do, Mr. McLaughlin. As I said in my previous remarks, there should be one and only one meteorological service. We are serving the entire country. The Air Service of the Navy and the Army are willing that we should do this work if we will only do it, but we can not do it without an appropriation. They are not doing it because they are waiting for us to do it, and this estimate of increase is for the purpose of the Weather Bureau doing this work. We have the skeleton organiza- tion and the stations and arrangements by which we can collect this information, prepare the forecasts, and issue the advices and warn- ing and information. We have all the organization for that; all we require is some additional funds that will enable us to make the ex- tensions to our existing organization to do this new and additional work. The CuarrmMan. Are we to understand, then, that this is at the re- quest of the Army and Navy? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. That this service be extended in this way? Mr. Marvin. They cordially support this extension. Mr. McLavucuuin of Michigan. Aren’t they building up services of their own, each one of them? ‘ Mr. Marvin. I don’t think so, gentlemen. If the Weather Bureau is strengthened in this work, I don’t think you will have any trouble from any other department wanting to do this work. The Cuarrman. Does this come at the suggestion of the two de- partments? Mr. Marvin. Not officially; no, sir. There is an interdepartmental committee on which there are representatives from the Army and Navy and the Signal Corps and the Weather Bureau. These bureau representatives support me in these increases in my estimate, and the taking over of that work; and the object of this interdepartmental committee or board is for the purpose of coordinating and making this work effective between the various departments, so that what the Weather Bureau does will be suitable for and will supply the needs of the other bureaus. 136 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. What assurance can we give the House that there will be no duplication of this work? Mr. Marvin. There is no authority of law, Mr. Chairman, for anybody else to do it. ; The Cuarirman, I understood you to say that it was the suggestion of the other departments that this work should be carried on by you and by no other bureau or department. ; Mr. Marvin. As I understand the authority of law in this matter, it is this: The Weather Bureau has adequate authority under the organic act, which I read into the record this morning. During the war the President by proclamation assigned to the Chief Signal Officer the responsibility of developing the meteorological work in the Army. The Chief Signal Officer operates under that authority at the present time and we are in close cooperation.. So far as I know, the Air Service is not making any meteorological observations. The Navy is conducting certain meteorological observations at naval _ base stations. I think at only two or three at the present. As stated, the Weather Bureau gets the observations. The Cuarrman. Then that work is carried on in three different branches of the Government? Mr. Marvin. The pilot balloon observations are made by the Navy and Army at the present time. That is not a duplication, however, Mr. Chairman. I wish to make it clear that there is no duplica- tion, because we do not have a station where they have a station. You can see by the little red dots on the map that they have stations in certain localities, which do not duplicate but supplement our sta- tions. The Cuarrman. It is carried on in three distinct branches? Mr. Marvin. To a certain extent that is true. Mr. McLaveuurw of Michigan. And I thought it was your purpose to have a station at each one of their stations? Mr. Marvin. No, sir. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. It says that about 20 Army sta- tions here. Mr. Marvin. Those are operated by the Signal Corps. Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. This says that through the co- operation with the Signal Corps, the Weather Bureau has inaugu- rated a limited forecast and warning service regarding upper air conditions at about 20 Army stations. Mr. Marvin. That is a service of information and weather advices that we render these stations at the military posts. The observations are made by their men and telegraphed to us. We give the advice based on all our observational data. As I said a moment ago, there are now 12 Army posts. The number has been reduced since we pre- pared the estimates. Mr. McLauveutin of Michigan. Tell us why it would not be ad- visable to have your station at the flying station. Mr. Marvin. The ultimate thing will be to have a pilot balloon station, either at a flying field or near a flying field, according to where it is best located to get the information we want. It is not necessary in order to make forecasts that the stations be at the field exactly, but near there. Mr. McLaveutan of Michigan. To serve that field? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 1387 _ Mr. Marvin. To serve that locality. The small map in front of you, Mr. McLaughlin, shows approximately, by the symbols, where the stations are at the present time and where we expect to put new ones. Mr. Lez. That is where they have permanent stations? Mr. Marvin. Our stations will be permanent. We will not put any stations where an Army or Navy station exists, or would be placed. Our stations will be only at places that we properly occupy. The: cooperation of the service operates to utilize stations at other places. which the Army and Navy maintain, at Pensacola, and a few coast. stations which the Navy may occupy. We would not put a station at. Pensacola, for instance, but the observations supplied by the Navy station at that base are very valuable to us and necessary. . Mr. McLaucuun of Michigan. Now, these aircraft are going to start from a certain station, and it would seem to me that it would be advisable for them to know—if it is necessary for them to know at all,. and, of course, it is from what you say—I would think that they would want the information as to conditions there. Mr. Marvin. That is just what we give. We do not have to have a station at every place to which we send forecasts. We have 200 sta- tions now which show the conditions over the whole continent, and we don’t ask for any additional stations covering the general surface condition. We now have only 11 of these pilot balloon stations. We want to add. 25 more. You can see that that doesn’t cover the country very exten- sively, but we need stations in the far West to cover zones and fields in which flying will be conducted. The Cuarrman. Professor, I take it that the practical and economi- cal thing to do would be to bring all of this under one head. Are we to understand that this service is to be conducted by your bureau and. also continued by the Army and the Navy; or did you come to some agreement as to who shall conduct this service? Mr. Marvin. I think the agreement—the understanding—is that the Weather Bureau should do the work. The Cuarrman. It seems to me that you could get together and agree as to who shall be charged with this service. Mr. Rusey. The only way to get at that would be to find out whether the Army is going to ask an appropriation for this work and whether the Navy is going to ask for it and whether the Post Office Department is going to ask for it; and if they are not going to ask for it and are willing it should be done by the weather Bureau, that would probably settle it. The Cuatrman. I am frank to say that, unless we can know, we will cut out this appropriation. We can not consent to the setting up of duplicate services in each department of the Government. Mr. Harrison. I think it ought to be pointed out that this appro- priation was originally suggested by the National Advisory Com- mittee on Aeronautics, composed of representatives of all these agencies appointed by the President under authority of law. Mr. Marvin. It started in that way originally. Mr. McLavecutin of Michigan. What committee did you say? Mr. Harrison. The National Advisory Committee on Aeronautics, appointed by the President in compliance with a provision in one of the appropriation bills. 138 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _ The Cuairman. It seems to me there should be sufficient coopera- tion: between the different departments of the Government to settle such a question. ee Mr. Marvin. I think the question is settled, practically. The Cuarrman. Have you a definite understanding ? Mr. Marvin. This interbureau board is entirely in accord as to the Weather Bureau doing this work. The Cuarrman. We are taking up a lot of time. I suggest that you take the matter up with the other departments. If you come to an agreement, we will give it consideration; but I take it that, until you do, we will hardly appropriate funds for two or three different departments to carry on the same work. It goes without saying that it would be a proper policy, or at least economy, to do that. We will pass this for the present. Mr. Jones. The other departments have made a book of estimates, haven’t they ?. : Mr. Marvin. I don’t know of any provisions in any other depart- ment for work of this character. Mr. Jones. Have you examined them? Mr. Marvin. I have not. Mr. Chairman, item 58 is new language- and a new appropriation. It reads: “For the establishment and. maintenance of special stations in national forests and elsewhere, the collection of reports and the issuing of forecasts and warnings in connection with the protection of forests from fires, in cooperation with the Forest Service, State and other organizations, including salaries,. travel, and other expenses in the city of Washington ard elsewhere, $15,000.” Several years ago it was found that the reports of the weather bureau in the West could be made very valuable in the prevention and suppression of forest fires. Mr. McLavcutun of Michigan. How? Mr. Marvin. By sending out in advance to the foresters, fire wardens and others warnings of the weather conditions that were favorable for the spread and inception of forest fires. During rainy weather and wet seasons there is little danger of forest fires, but when the weather becomes dry and droughty and hot, and the winds spring up and blow firebrands about, and where logging opera- tions are carried on, it starts and spreads conflagration. The people in the Northwest, the lumber interests in the Northwest, went to our Oregon men to know if they could not give them advices in ad- vance in regard to where the unfavorable conditions of weather would be. They took the matter up and worked up a service on that basis, and that has been in operation under scarcely any ap- propriaticn—it is like these other things that I said the weather bureau did every now and then to help out, up to the limit of our ability. That was done very successfully. A year or so after that, we asked Congress to give us an appropriation for this matter, and it was included with some other estimates. Half of the amount we asked for was granted, but the language in regard to the fire-fight- ing work was omitted, and we have felt that we were not justified in spending any considerable amount on the work. We would have taken this matter up two or three years ago more vigorously if it had not been for the war conditions. Now it AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 139 seems that we must bring this matter up at the present session be- cause the work is so greatly needed. a Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. It is difficult for a layman to question or cast out on statements by you scientific gentlemen, but you speak of dry conditions under which fires are produced. Fires come generally and naturally, I would suppose, after a long-con- tinued dry spell. It would not seem to me that it would take any weather observations or scientific investigation to disclose that con- dition when it comes and prevails for a long time. Fires come then, and it doesn’t do any good to foresee it, does it? Mr. Mervin. I think it does. Resolutions have been passed on numerous occasions by forestry and fire-fighting associations of the West, recommending increased appropriations for this service. The extensive and destructive forest fires that prevailed this summer in the Northwest emphasize the need for this service and its ex- tension. The value of the service is shown by a letter from the chief fire warden of the State of Washington, if you will permit me to read it, dated Seattle, Wash., August 11, in which he asked to have it arranged that telegraphic warnings of fire weather conditions be sent to some 200 or 300 logging operators in the logging camps under the supervision of the association. He says that more than one-half of the fires reported for this year have occurred in log- ging camps, and that the only way to prevent these fires is to cease operating fire-emitting engines during extremely hazardous weather, The plar. *s to advise the operators that telegrams will be sent them advising them of the approach of dangerous conditions and suggest- ing that they close down upon the receipt of these advices. Mr. Jones. I can not agree to the statement that one-half of the fires reported this season have occurred in logging camps. In the first place, the lumbermen themselves are more interested in the prevention of fires than any other class of people; and the fires in the forests are started by hunters and campers, 95 per cent of them. That is true in the Adirondacks, and I think it is true everywhere else where hunters and campers assemble. Mr. Marvin. We are performing this service to a limited extent at the present time. Here is one of the cards that we send out [indi- cating]. That is part of the service. This gives the forecast of the conditions where forest fires are likely to be aided by weather con- ditions and contains cautions against the production or starting of forest fires and solicits cooperation. There is educational work on this card for the use of campers, excursionists, logging men, and everybody to whom these things will be distributed. .The object is to get hold of the excursionists and the campers. We place ad- monitory words there. Mr. Jonzs. I think that [referring to the forecast card] is cor- rect. That is the reason of the fires, too, the reason set forth there as the cause of the fires. Mr. Marvin. Now, I am not advocating anything in my own be- half at all. I am simply trying to satisfy the demands that are made upon us. We have on file also a letter from Hon. Burton L. French, repre- sentative from Idaho, to the Forest Service, together with a copy of the acting forester’s reply, urging that funds be set aside for the 140 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL: use of the Weather Bureau in connection with weatlier forecasts and forest fire work. In transmitting this correspondence to the Weather Bureau, the Acting Forester says: . The Forest Service will appreciate any favorable consideration which car be given by you to the suggestion made by Mr. French as to the inclusion of a $10,000 item in the appropriation estimates for the fiscal year 1921 for forecast work in Montana and Ilaho and Oregon, with special reference to forest fires. “As you know, the present season is one of the worst which has been experienced since the national forests were taken in under the adminis- tration of the Forest Service, and the expenses this year convince me that accurate weather forecasts would be of great assistance in shaping an organ- ization for the prevention and suppression of forest fires. The amount named by Mr. French, $10,000, is insufficient, under resent conditions, and we are asking that the amount be set at 15,000. . The Cuarrman. Who is that from? Mr. Marvin. Hon. Burton L. French, Representative from Idaho. The Cuarrman. Is that to establish a new station? Mr. Marvin. The purpose of this? The Cuairman. This $15,000 item? Mr. Marvin. The $15,000 is to enable us to put in certain instru- mental equipment of a limited character for measuring wind velocity at forest stations, under care of the Forest Service and under care of the State forestry organizations. We pay no salaries for any of the information furnished. The CuarrMan. It reads: : For the establishment and maintenance of special stations in national forests and elsewhere. Does that mean the establishment of new stations? Mr. Marvin. Not new stations from the point of view of the big city stations. We simply put in an anemometer and a wind vane, perhaps. ' Mr. Jonzs. Where will these operations be placed ? Mr. Marvin. They will be placed where they are making these fire observations. At lookout stations and where they give useful information and where they can be cared for by men already there. Mr. Jones. Fire control posts? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; and these men will give us the readings. The readings will be telegraphed into our forecasting offices, and the information will be put on the weather map or charted otherwise in order to aid the forecasters in determining the localities in which these warnings should be issued, and the nature of the warning. We ‘will then distribute the information to those regions where it is most dangerous. Mr. Jones. Isn’t there telegraph and telephone service now where each of these fire wardens is located under forestry protection ? Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir; and because of the existence of such means of immediate communication we can administer this service. Mr. Jonus. Isn’t their telegraph and telephone service taken care of in their appropriation? You ask for telephone and telegraph service in connection with this $15,000. oe Mr. Marvin. Any messages going over their lines is free, and none of the money would be spent in that way, but the message, must go from the terminus of their lines into our system through AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 141 commercial lines to reach us; and it is that service for which we must pay. ; Mr. Jonrs. To give you a concrete example, the fire warden on top of a certain mountain, for instance in the Adirondacks (he is placed there under the supervision of the State Department of New York) ; he has got his observation station there and stays there throughout the dry season; with his telescope he can look all around the surrounding territory; if he sees a fire start or smoke emanating from some particular place he phones to the nearest available point and says there is a fire in such and such a lot and such and such a territory. How will this service of yours aid him in the stopping of that fire or putting it out in case it does start? Mr. Marvin. It would not aid him in stopping that fire, possibly. he value of warnings of the production of forest fires would enable he fire wardens to observe the greatest precautions in those districts which were the most threatened. Now, after a fire has started it may become a question of when it is going to rain and help put out the fire; that is all included in our forecast. Mr. Jones. When they see a fire they will put it out and not wait for rains. Mr. Marvin. They may not wait for rains, but it would be of much value to them. Mr. Jonzs. They might have to wait three or four days. Mr. Marvin. Of course, but it is of value to them to know what is coming, and that a rain coming in a certain section. The forecasts of coming rains in the dry season are of value without fires. Mr. Jonzs. They will not wait for a rain. Mr. Marvin. . They may not wait for a rain; the fire may burn until the rain helps to stop it. At any rate, this is represented to us by these people as a useful service that we ought to render. The question is, What are we going to do about it? There is no other agency of the Government that has the organization to do this and it can not be done otherwise. It is simply a question, Are, we to do it or let it go undone? AsI said a moment ago, it is a thing that grew up several years ago. If the associations in the West inter- ested in forest conservation are asked, they will testify to the value of the services we have already rendered. I think this letter from the Chief Forester indicates that, and as I say, it is a question whether the bureau is to be furnished with funds to do this work or must it be left undone? Mr. Hutcutinson. Professor, I would like to ask you a question right here. I see in the table below here you have “special ob- servers, from $1 to 50 cents per observation.” I would like to know if the observer that gets this enormous salary of $1,260 can get that? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; the “special observers” are private citizens who are willing to give a part of their time to do this work. I spoke this morning of 5,000 observers that we pay absolutely nothing. We give them certain publications and the like. Now, when we ask a man to prepare a telegram and file that at a telegraph office within a few minutes we are willing to pay him 25 cents per observation, and sometimes a little more, but at the maximum we can not pay that man more than $300 a year under civil-service rules. Under that less than $1 a day is the maximum we can pay. 142 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION: BILL. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. When he goes to a telegraph office with a telegram, what does he put in the telegram? Mr. Marvin. It may be the state of the wind, or the temperature, or the stage of the river, possibly ; in this fire-weather work, it may be the amount of rainfall or the reading of the anemometer; in some cases it may be a cipher message to convey a lot in a few words; in that case he has a code book and must take out the words that will ~ convey the observation. We pay a small fee for those observations. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. If he reports that there is a high wind, what is done? Mr. Marvin. He reports the reading of the anemometer, 28 miles per hour, northwest, or cloudy, or whatever may be the state of the weather; he does not tell us anything about a forest fire, or any- thing like that. When the forecaster receives the report the obser- vations are entered on a map of the region and go to make up a great picture of the atmospheric conditions, and the forecaster makes his deductions and forecast. Mr. Hurcuinson. Right there, I want to ask if you have in your bureau any men drawing two salaries? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; not contrary to any law. Mr. Hurcurnson. Perhaps not contrary to law, but have you any? Mr. Marvin. I think that in proper cases the law authorizés men to receive two salaries, providing the aggregate amount does not ex- ceed $2,000. There are no men at the present time in the Weather Bureau receiving two compensations from the Government. The CuHarrman. Was there not an order issued during the war to the effect that they might draw salaries up to $2,000? Mr. Harrison. There is a law which prohibits any employee of the Government from drawing two salaries if the amounts aggre- gate more than $2,000. The Cuairman. But they may draw up to $2,000? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. ' : The Cuarrman. You have 5,000 of these local reporters? Mr. Marvin. We have nearly that number. The number who re- ceive 25 cents a time for observations is roughly 1,500, I should say; that is, the corn and wheat observers and the observers on the rivers, and we pay a large number of. men who make an observation and file a telegram this small compensation. The Cuarrman. They are the ones who were formerly paid a yearly compensation ? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; we never had men of that-class; these men are given so much for an observation. In some cases there is a monthly wage not to exceed $25. The Cuarrman. About 5,000 of them? Mr. Marvin. About 1,500. The Cuairman. Altogether? ; Mr. Marvin. One thousand five hundred that receive this kind of compensation. : The Cuarrman. How many altogether? Mr. Marvin. There are 5,000 men that receive no compensation and about 1,500 this small compensation. The Cuairman. That averages nearly two to a county ? Mr. Marvin. One to a county. AGRICULTURE APPRUPRIATION BILL. 143 The Cuarrman. There are about 3,500 counties? Mr. Marvin. There are a few cases with two in a county. The Carman. And they are to continue without salaries? Mr. Marvin. Without salaries. The Cuarrman. What have you to say about item 59? That is a new item, “For the extension of marine meteorological work, the collection of weather and water temperature reports at sea, the prepa- ration of charts, the determining of fog zones, the distribution of marine meteorological information in the aid of navigation, and to carry out the provisions of the act of Congress approved June 17, 1910 (36 Stat. L., p. 508), for the collecting and furnishing of meteor- ological information to the Hydrographic Office of the Navy De- partment for use in the preparation of pilot charts, including salaries, travel, and other expenses in the city of Washington and elsewhere, $50,000.” Mr. Marvin. This is in connection with the extension of our marine meteorological work, the collection of weather and water temperature reports at sea, and the preparation of charts, etc., and like the item with reference to weather warning, it is a new item. It has been conducted in an inexpensive way for very many years. ‘For many years the Weather Bureau has been engaged in the col- lection of meteorological reports from vessels at sea, the principal object of which has been to supply data required for the pilot charts published by the hydrographic office of the Navy Depart- ment, as required by act of Congress. This work has been con- ducted with very little expense. The observations are made under cooperative arrangements with vessel captains of ships of all nationalities. No payment is made for the observations other than for the marine information and meteorological publications fur- nished, and the correctness of the barometers when the ships enter ports at which Weather Bureau stations are located. The only addi- tional expense has been for salaries of a few clerks engaged in charting and filing the data now furnished the hydragraphic office. The placing of so many United States mercantile ships on the seas has created a greater demand than ever before for definite informa- tion pertaining to the surface meteorology of the ocean, which is necessary to further develop the existing service. Employees of the Weather Bureau at stations located in impor- tant seaport cities must visit ships and confer with vessel mas- ters and enlist cooperative reports, check instruments, and supply observers with information. Maps and bulletins must be prepared and issued containing the current meteorology of the ocean as far ‘as possible, especially the great highways and lanes of marine travel, in order to make available accurate information as to stormy regions and occasions. Up to the present time, masters of vessels have provided their own instruments, and experience shows that observations are often highly inaccurate. However, it is not the purpose of the Weather Bureau to supply instruments to vessel masters, except possibly in the case of a very limited number of selected ships plying waters where data are now deficient or entirely lacking, or where vessels render reports by wireless in important regions. Recent scientific studies of these matters lead to the con- clusion that the surface-water temperatures of the ocean exert an 144 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. influence on the weather of coastal regions. Because of the slow changes in water temperatures the necessary information haz a forecast value with reference to the future weather conditions. In special cases the ocean conditions may justify a forecast several weeks in advance. The present project will contribute in an important -way to this and like studies. : The object of this is to extend. our domain over the ocean and -yehabilitate the conditions that existed before the war. Before the war the vessels of all the nationalities of the world were furnish- ing us with reports by mail; they come in by mail when the vessel reaches port. The observation is made by the masters of the ves- -sels, who receive no compensation. During the war the ships were withdrawn from traffic, and England especially withheld permission -to furnish reports and we lost most of our observational work. We _are now striving through the marine agencies at ports of entry to rehabilitate this service and extend it. The Shipping Board has extended its good offices to us in encouraging the masters of vessels -to furnish information to us, and the information we are able to - give to them is sufficient to justify them in taking an interest in the ‘work, the best that can be done. The other nations will come in on this and ships of foreign nationalities will furnish us information in exchange for the information we give them. We intend to develop a map, issue especially to show weather conditions over the great, lanes of travel of the North Atlantic. Forecasts will indicate what ‘kind of weather they are going to encounter on their various trips. ‘These requests are made to us, and it is our effort to supply that information. Our law requires us to perform our service for the benefit of navigation and we are now undertaking to do that in this way. Sait of this upper air work will be extended over the ocean. You have seen during the past summer the Atlantic Ocean has been navi- gated twice by aircraft, and it is imposible to anticipate what will ‘happen in the future in regard to oceanic aerial navigation. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. You have taken care of that in -another item. Mr. Marvin. Of the upper air work, yes. This is for the surface conditions of the oceans from ships’ reports. In the course of the next few years the ocean will-be covered by many ships from all points, and if each makes an observation once a day and makes a report on arrival at port we can chart those observations in con- junction with like reports from vessels at other points. Thus we have a picture of the meteorological conditions on the ocean. The Caarrman. Are we to understand that this is a transfer of activities from the Navy Department? Mr. Marvin. No, sir. The Cuarrman. The notes read, “Up to the present time mas- ‘ters of vessels have provided their own instruments, and experience ‘shows that observations are often highly inaccurate.” Mr. Marvin. In some cases instruments are inaccurate. i the Cuarrman. Is the Navy doing any of this work at the present ime? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; the Navy, of course, is not occupying the .ocean except in a very incidental way. During peace times they may AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 145 patrol the coast, or go out on manouvers, but the number of merchant ships on the ocean is far in excess of anything the Navy could do. The Hydrographic Office prints a map of the ocean on which the average weather conditions are shown. The Cuatrman. Is the Hydrographic Office doing anything of this ‘kind now? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; the law provides that we give to them the results based on the information we receive. Mr. McLaveuin of Michigan. You spoke of reports made by masters of vessels after they reach ports telling of the kinds of» weather through which they passed on the voyages. Mr. Marvin. ‘The observations give us the pressure of the air, the temperature of the air, the temperature of the water, the direction of the wind, and the cloudiness and all those particulars, the same as we observe at our continental stations. ; Mr. McLaueuun of Michigan. What good will that do you for the future? Mr. Marvin. It is a case of understanding the great question of the circulation of the atmosphere; of the laws governing the changes in weather from day to day. These daily weather maps we construct give us a picture of the atmospheric conditions over the land. We know little of what conditions are over the ocean on any given day except as we go out there and observe them. a McLaveuurn of Michigan. Are those conditions ever twice alike ? Mr. Marvin. Hardly ever. When the trans-Atlantic flight was planned we went into the past records and we examined map after map, both from Newfoundland direct to Ireland, and from New- foundland to the Azores, to Portugal and England. We gathered all the information we could in regard to the atmospheric conditions on the ocean, and that was drawn upon to aid in the advice to the ‘Navy in planning that flight. A paper has been published setting that information forth, and it enables us to formulate an opinion on certain conditions which favor or prevent a flight of that character. Now, we must wait until conditions come which are favorable. We have to wait, and we gave the Navy information at Trepassey Bay when to start. They had to wait several days and we gave them in- formation and it could not have been done without the information we had collected during long past years. We do not want to stop now; we want to continue that collection of information. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. How do you justify the purchase of these instruments and the gift of them? ‘Mr. Marvin. We do not purchase them and give them away. i Mr. McLavenun of Michigan. There is something about that ere. Mr. Marvin (reading) : However, it it not the purpose of the Weather Bureau to supply instruments to vessel masters except possibly in the case of a very limited number of selected ships plying waters where data are now deficient or entirely lacking or where vessels render reports by wireless in important regions. There is a qualification there. ; The CuarrMan. Why should you furnish any of these vessels with instruments? : 164315—20—-10 146 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Marvin. Mr. Chairman, if we knew there was a vessel plying far north in the Atlantic, for example, we might consider it a very proper investment to lend the master a barometer worth $25 or $30 to get that information, because there are very few vessels go into that region, and we would like to have that exception made so_that we could furnish a few instruments in some cases. We do not expect to furnish instruments in any considerable number of cases. The Cuamman,. If that is all, let us hear something about the remaining item, No. 6, which reads as follows: “The. Secretary of Agriculture shall cause the premises known as Mount Weather, situate at Mount Weather, in the counties of Loudoun and Clarke, in the State of Virginia, and comprising 84.81 acres of land, more or less, together with the buildings and other improvements thereon, including laboratories, cottages, sheds, stables, shops, heating and power plant, kite shelter, and other buildings of whatever nature, together with all the rights, easements, and appurtenances thereto belonging, to be sold at public sale and conveyed to the highest bidder for cash, first having given not less than 30 days’ public notice of the time, place, and terms of sale immediately prior to such sale, by publication in at least two newspapers having a general circula- tion in the county or sections of the counties where the premises are situate; the net proceeds of the sale, after deducting the expenses incidental thereto, to be turned into the Treasury as miscellaneous receipts.” Mr. Marvin. The only remaining item is for language in the ap- propriations to authorize the sale of Mount Weather. ase The Cuarrman. How much money has been expended at Mount Weather? Mr. Marvin. In response to action by the Congress in 1914, I think a statement was submitted showing the original cost to the Govern- ment of the properties and improvements made at that place; a com- plete outlay of $209,581.70. There were $28,000 used in replacing one building which was destroyed by fire, a balance of $181,581.70. The Cuarrman. What building was that? Mr. Marvin. The original observatory building, a stone building, originally occupying the site of what is now the main building. The large building replaced the stone building destroyed by fire. Mr. McLaventurn of Michigan. The Government does not carry insurance on any property ? Mr. Marvin. There was no insurance on that property. The Cuairman. Can you describe which building it was? I was up there last year. , Mr. Marvin. The brick building with the large columns. The Cuarrman. Is $28,000 all thst building cost? Mr. Marvin. No, sir; that is not the cost of the building itself, but that was the cost of the building originally there that was lost. The Cuairman. What is the cost of the building that is there now? Mr. Marvin. That cost $49,848.98. Mr. Jonss. When was that burned down ? Mr. Marvin. The original building was burned in 1907, I think. The Cuarrman. What is the cost of the upkeep of the place now? Mr. Marvin. In 1914 we removed all of the activities from that station, except certain observations, and placed the property in the hands of a caretaker at a cost of—I think we are paying $1,400; this statement does not show that. We have a man in charge temporarily of the property, and he is making certain observations for us. We removed all the activities from that station, after having been in operation several years, and I wish'to say this, that we hardly AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 147 could have foreseen the value which the observations and data col- lected at that station came to have during the war. They were almost the only observations made in this country in the upper air, and that gave us the first data to answer the inquiries in relation to the upper air to military departments. Mr. Jonss. I would like to have a little history of it; this is all new to me, and I would like to know why was it established, and what was done with it, and why was it disbanded ? Mr. Marvin. The history of that institution would be a very long one, but briefly it amounts to this: The Chief of the Weather Bureau in 1902 bought a tract of ground up there for the purpose of erecting a laboratory and a scientific institution to pursue a number of lines of work and put up a number of buildings. That work was carried on for a number of years. In 1909 we began to carry on the kite and balloon work there. During that time a number of buildings were erected. Some were used for magnetic observations. Other buildings were designed for investigations in meteorological physics. - The Cxarrman. Mr. Harrison has a copy of the report made by the secretary to the Speaker which gives full information. What is the committee’s wish as to inserting it in the record? [After some informal discussion by the members of the commitee.] We will have the report incorporated in the record. (The report referred to follows:) DECEMBER 9, 1914. The SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Siz: Pursuant to the instructions contained in the act of Congress approved June '24, 1914 (Public No. 122, 63d Cong., H. R. 13679), entitled, “An act mak- ing appropriations for the Department of Agriculture for the fiscal year ending June 30, 1915,” viz: * * * * * * * “The Secretary of Agriculture is hereby. directed to report to Congress at its next session the present condition and value of the tract of land consisting of eighty-four and eighty-one one-hundredths acres of land, more or less, known as Mount Weather, and located in the counties of Loudoun and Clarke, in the State of Virginia, the original cost of said land, together with the cost of the improvements thereon and the present value of such improvements, the amount which in his opinion can be realized from the sale of said real property, includ- ing buildings and other improvements, at private sale, and whether in his opinion it would be most advantageous to sell the same at public or at private sale, and to advise Congress as to whether it would be better for the Govern- ment to sell said property or to lease it. And the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized, in his discretion, to discontinue the use of Mount Weather as a weather station and if necessary place a keeper in charge thereof for its pro- tection and care, the expenses thereof to be paid out of the appropriation made herein for necessary expenses of the Weather Bureau outside of the city of Washington.” * * * * * * * J have the honor to report, as follows: ; Description of property——Mount Weather (Virginia) is the name given’ a group of buildings erected by the Weather Bureau for special aerial and re- search work on top of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Loudoun and Clarke Coun- ties, about 20 miles south of Harpers Ferry and 47 miles in a direct line west of Washington. It is 6 miles south of Bluemont, Va., the nearest railroad station and present terminus of the Washington & Old Dominion (surburban electric) Railroad line. The grounds have an area of 84.81 acres; are roughly square in outline, lying on both sides of the ridge, the top of which is 1,725 feet above sea level, and about 1,200 feet above the valleys on either side. It overlooks to the west the entire Shenandoah Valley from Strasburg to Harpers Ferry, and to the east all that portion of Piedmont-Virginia Valley between the Blue Ridge and the Bull Run Mountains. 148 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION EILL. Original cost to the Government. Land, first purchase of 67.25 acres (September, 1902) _-__-_-.------- $1, 863. 15 Land, second purchase of 17.56 acres (September, 1903) ------------ 650. 00 ‘Total cost of land_ 2, 513. 15 Buildings and improvements. Administration and observatory building, erected 1909; brick, tile, and concrete; three stories and cellar; 18 rooms; cost________--_ $49, 898. 41 Machine shop and balloon shed, erected 1904; two-story frame and ; stone building; 8 rooms; cost . 8, 817. 00 Central heating and power plant, erected 1909; one-story stone build- ing; boilers and electrical equipment sufficient for supplying heat, light, and power for the entire plant; cost______________________ 11, 964. 74 Absolute building and variation building (for terrestrial-magnetic work), erected 1906; 2 one-story frame buildings, used in connec- tion with investigations in terrestrial magnetism; cellar under each; the walls are about 4 feet thick, of double construction, packed with sawdust to secure constant temperature conditions within; cost 15, 904. 55 Stables: 1 two-story frame and stone stable and 1 two-story frame SE SUD ORS COS Ee an A aaa hand ee he ht Na ele nd eas a cla nel eee, 2, 800. 00 Farm cottage for dwelling purposes, remodeled 1905; a two-story frame building; 9 rooms; cost. 1, 300. 00 Physical laboratory, erected 1909; three-story stone building; 16 rooms; cost : 387, 521. 51 Cottage for dwelling, erected 1909; three-story frame building; 15 rooms; cost — 11, 246. 34 Reel house and kite. shelter; a circular frame building, 9 feet in di- ameter ; cost 1, 738. 69 Repairs and permanent improvements. 87, 823. 31 Administration building destroyed by fire; cost____.-.____-_.______ 28, 000. 00 Total cost to the Government_______-___________-_---_-____ 209, 527. 70 Or, omitting fire losses ($28,000), original cost remains____________ 181, 527, 70 Most of the buildings are new, or have been maintained in thorough condition of repair. The present valuation is, however, placed at 60 per cent of original cost, or approximately $108,000. And, including $4,250 for the grounds, gives a total of $112,000. PRESENT CONDITION AND VALUE. Grounds.—Condition, as a whole, excellent. More than one-half the tract is rocky, covered with trees and shrubs, and not suitable for any agricultural pur- poses except grazing; remainder cleared and about one-half acre is utilized for growing garden truck, ete. Ground improvements consist of some clearing of trees and underbrush; laying out and constructing necessary roads and drive- ways. Latter, about the upper part of the grounds, have been built of crushed stone in good substantial manner, and connect with the public highway, county road, from Bluemont. Entire tract well inclosed, partly by a stone-wall fence and remainder by wire fencing. : Land values—lImproved lands between Mount Weather and Bluemont have been sold within the past year or so at prices of from $40 per acre, for orchard purposes, to $100 per acre, for summer residence sites, location and outlook adding considerably to values for residence sites. The Weather Bureau tract is well situated for residential purposes, and is considéred by those having a knowledge of local real-estate values to be worth $50 per acre, not including, of course, the value of the improvements. The special scientific investigations heretofore conducted at Mount Weather have been transferred to the new station established near Omaha, Nebr., and to Washington; and most of the scientific instruments and apparatus have now been removed. The chief obstacle to our continued use of the property is the present poor condition of the road from Bluemont, affording access thereto. Arrangements AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 149 have been made, however, to continue all needful meteorological observations at Mount Weather, including preservation and care of buildings and grounds, at a cost of less than $2,000 per annum. — : The buildings and grounds have been inspected by officials of other bureaus of this department and are not found suitable for their use in any way. _ The buildings are of good, durable construction, are fairly well arranged, and could be adapted for use aS a summer hotel or country club, a sanitarium, or possibly for school purposes. Whether this property should be sold at private or public sale is, we think, a question that should be left to the judgment of Congress, with a recommenda- tion that the present valuation of the property be set at $112,000. Based on personal observation of the Chief of the Weather Bureau extending over the entire period back to several months before the date of purchase, it is believed the location of this property is such that neither the buildings nor grounds could be leased to advantage in any way, either as a whole or in part, and such action is not recommended. It is also impracticable to dispose of the property to advantage at forced sale at this time, and it is recommended it be held for sale later when a reasonable price may possibly be had. Respectfully submitted. D, F. Houston, Secretary. Mr. Jones. In a few words, why was it given up? Mr. Marvin. After five years we found it costly to maintain it. The property is located on the Blue Ridge Mountains, about 6 miles from the terminus of the Old Dominion Railway. Supplies have to be hauled in, and the men were more or less isolated there and were not contented in the conduct of the work. We had about five years of observations at that point in the kites and balloon problems, and it was not such a good place for that kind of work, because we were - too near the ocean. We could do the kite work, but some of the balloon work could not be conducted there, because the balloons would move eastward and drop in the ocean. Mr. Jones. Was it reestablished at some other place? Mr. Marvin. We established a station at Drexel, Nebr., and moved equipment out there. __ Mr. Trncuer. What kind of land is it? The Cuarrman. It is one of the most beautiful sites in America. How many acres have you there? Mr. Marvin. Eighty-four and eighty-one hundredths acres. The Cuamman. What did the department pay for the land? Mr. Marvin. The original cost of the land was $2,513.15. The first parcel of 67} acres was purchased for $1,863.15; a second parcel was purchased for $650, or a total of $2,513.15. Mr. Jonzs. You say it is 8 miles from a railroad? Mr. Marvin. Six miles from the terminus of the Old Dominion Railroad. ; Mr. Jones. What point is that? Mr. Maryrn. Bluemont, Va., about 60 miles west of Washington. The Cuatrman. Does the $209,000 include the roads? Mr. Marvin. That includes everything. The Cuarrman. Are you through, Professor? Mr. Marvin. I believe that is all, except in concluding I would like to say that this work we are asking money for is all legitimate work of the bureau and will help to strengthen the hands of the bureau in meeting demands made upon it from outside sources. I hope you can see it from that point. The increases are made necessary from the 150 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. : fact that our appropriations stood still all during the four years of the war. We must now rehabilitate the service along all lines. A ONCE ENON: Professor, did the war increase your activities at all? Mr. Marvin. Very little, except the appropriation for aerological work. That was an appropriation for $100,000, made in the Army bill originally. That was made for investigations and experiments in aid of air navigation and the future needs of aeronautics justifies the continuation of that. Aviation is still with us, and we must still do the work to comply with a very plain requirement of our organic act. Mr. Hutcuinson. I notice you are asking for $347,000 more than you did last year. Mr. Marvin. That is the total aggregate increase. Mr. Hurcurnson. That is in the items you speak of, $20,000-——— Mr. Marvin (interposing). For aerological work. The Cuarrman. The estimate carries a number of items. Will you ascertain whether the activities are carried on by other departments and furnish the committee with the information ? , ’ Mr. Marvin. Yes, sir. (At the suggestion of the chairman, the following letter from the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics on the subject of the aerological work of the Weather Bureau is submitted for the record :) NATIONAL ADVISORY COMMITTEE FOR AERONAUTICS, Washington, D. C., December 18, 1919. Hon. Grrperr N. HAvuGEN, Chairman Committee on Agriculture, House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: At the regular meeting of the executive committee of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, held on December 18, 1919, careful consid- eration was given to the increasing needs of aeronautics for improvements and extensions in the making of meteorological observations in the free air and the issuance of forecasts and warnings for the promotion of the safety of naviga- tion of the air over the land and the oceans. . The work of this character now being done by the Weather Bureau is con- ducted under an appropriation of $100,000, which was originally granted by Congress in 1917 upon the recommendation of the National Advisory Com- mittee for Aeronautics. The organic act defining the duties and functions of the Weather Bureau clearly requires it to render this important service. The making of'local mete- orological observations by the Army at certain military posts and by the Navy at base stations and aboard ships is necessary for local needs, and obviates the maintenance by the Weather Bureau of stations at those points, which would otherwise be necessary, There is no duplication of work and expenditures whatever in these activities, the work of the Army and Navy in this connection being wholly supplementary and complementary to that of the Weather Bureau, the observations being tele- graphed to the Weather Bureau daily for its use in conjunction with reports from over 200 stations of its own. Accordingly, the executive committee strongly approves of and supports the recommendation of the Secretary of Agriculture for the increase of $200,000 requested, viz: Item (57) of the committtee print of the estimates. The execu- tive committee further unanimously authorized its chairman to address this letter to you because it is convinced that the funds requested are now necessary to enable the Weather Bureau to meet the requirements of aviation and to safe- guard the lives and property employed in the navigation of the air. The mem- bers of the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics present at the meeting referred to are: Dr, Joseph 8S. Ames, chairman. Dr. Charles D. Walcott, Secretary Smithsonian Institution. Prof. Charles F. Marvin, Chief United States Weather Bureau. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 151 Maj. Gen. Charles T. Menoher, United States Army, Director of Air Service. Lieut. Col. B. Q. Jones, United States Army, representing Col. T. H. Bane. Rear Admiral D. W. Taylor, Chief Constructor, United States Navy. Capt. T. T. Craven, United States Navy, Director of Naval Aviation. Gen. Menoher and Capt. Craven have expressed their desire and willingness to present their views personally to you on this matter. Respectfully, NaTIoNAL ADvisorY CoMMITTEE ror AERONAUTICS, JosrpH 8. AmrEs, Chairman Executive Committee. Activities under lump-sum items, Weather Bureau. g j Allotment,| Estimate, Project. 1920. 1921,’ | Increase. Expenses in Washington... ....-...22.-22+.+ 202-2 see eeee eee cere eee $109,250 | $116,190 1 $6,940 Printing in Washington.......... 2.22.02 ee cece eee ec ene eeec eens 12, 800 15,000 2,200 Expenses outside of Washington: (a) Forecasts and warnings....---...--------+-22e++eeeceee eee ee 841,620 891, 120 2 49,500 (b) Agricultural meteorology. 84,000 104, 000 3 20,000 (c) Climatological work..... 356, 310 357,210 #900 (d) Seismology... ....-. : es 2,000 (e) Voleanology.. 10, 000 (f) Miscellaneous. ....... 2.22. -ee cece ce eee eee cee e eee e cee e ees 10, 300 _ |_1,304, 230 | § 1,374, 630 70, 400 Traveling expenses ...--.-----2-0-e-eeere reece rete eee ee eeenere ee nen 26, 000 28, 200 2,200 Aerological investigations.............22..200 222 e eee cece eee eee eee ee 85,040 | 6 285,040 200, 000 Forest fire warnings (NeW)............202-ccenececennceceneceneseces|[pcaceweceres 15, 000 15, 000 Marine meteorological work (new)......--- 2-22-22 eee eee eee eee eee fee eee ee eee 50, 000 50, 000 Toba aoe areas on scsorcs menas shatter da tnetish glee veel insisted eaticteierd 1,537,321 | 1,884,060 346,740 1 Includes central office administrative expenses in connecticn with (a) vessel service, $5,500; and (b) dry farming observation work, $1,440. : 2 Forecasts and warnings, $40,000; vessel weather service, $9,500. 3 Fruit pot service, $9,000; orchard spraying forecasts, $7,000; cattle, corn, and wheat region weather service, $4,000. 4 Dry farming observation work. 5 Includes $1,200 transferred to statutcry roll. 6 Includes $4,020 transferred to statutory roll. The Cuarrman. Thank you very much, Prof. Marvin. ; (Thereupon the committee proceeded to take up the estimates for the Bureau of Animal Industry.) ComMiTTEE on AGRICULTURE, Hovse or REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, December 10, 1919. (The morning session of December 10 and most of the time of the afternoon session were given to a consideration of item No. 61, in the estimates for the Bureau of Animal Industry, for the eradi- cation of tuberculosis of animals. The record of the hearings on this matter will be found in subsequent pages of this report.) Bureau or ANiMAL INDUSTRY. The Cuarrman. We will be pleased to hear from you, Dr. Mohler. STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Dr. Mouter. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the first item in the estimate for appropriations for the Bureau of Animal Industry will be found on page 37 of the book of estimates. This item refers to the salaries on the statutory roll. You will note that there is no actual increase in this amount, but there is an apparent increase of $105,640, on account of the transfer of some 78 clerks, 3 skilled laborers, and 18 messengers and messenger boys from the lump sums over to this statutory roll. Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. In each case was the transfer made at the same salary? Dr. Monte. In each case the transfer was made at the same salary and the lump sum decreased accordingly. Mr. McLavcuutn of Michigan. Are any additional men asked for on any of these items? Dr. Monter. No, sir; and no promotions. The next item will be found on page 42, item 60: For inspection and quarantine work, including all necessary expenses for the eradication of scabies in sheep and cattle, the inspection of Southern cattle, the supervision of the transportation of live stock and the inspection of vessels, the execution of the 28-hour law, and the inspection and quaran- tine of imported animals, etc. oS You will note that the appropriation last year was for $525,000, while this year we are asking for $557,660, which is an actual in- crease of $40,020, when the transfer to the statutory roll of $7,360 is added. There are three items which are included in this increase. The first item is for $10,000 increase for the eradication of scabies in cattle and horses. 153 154 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. In certain areas in the Western and Southwestern States? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Are those largely range cattle and range horses? Dr. Mouter. Largely so. The principal project under this appro- priation is the regular eradication work of scabies in sheep, which is carried on in cooperation with State authorities in 21 States. In addition, assistance is lent to authorities in other States upon request when circumstances warrant. New outbreaks of this disease oc- curred in several of the Western States in the last two years. As the war emergency rendered it inadvisable to impose severe restric- tions upon the movement of sheep to feed lots for fattening and to markets, and because of the shortage of competent personnel at that time, it was found difficult to confine these outbreaks to the original areas. The disease, therefore, attained a considerable spread, espe- cially in the larger sheep-feeding States in the Central West, through the introduction of sheep from the range States. ue the past season intensive efforts were made by the bureau and the State authorities and considerable improvement was effected. It is important, however, that the campaign be continued so that the ground gained may not again be lost. We have kept a complete record of the number of bands of sheep that were found affected in the central, western, and extreme western States. There were in all about 2,722 bands found infested with scabies last year, involving over 2,000,000 sheep. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. How much money was spent on that this year, under this $525,000 appropriation, under this subdi- vision A? : Dr. Moutzr. For sheep scabies $151,378 was allotted for the current year. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. This year you propose to make it $160,000, an increase of $10,000? Dr. Mouter. The increase of $10,000 is for the cattle and horse scabies work, not the sheep scabies work. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. For that same work last year it was $151,000? _Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. That was for sheep scabies. We are not asking for any increase on that. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Under this subdivision A, you are asking for an increase. ; Dr. Mouter. The $10,000 increase requested is for the eradication of scabies in cattle and horses. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. How much did you have last year for that? Dr. Mouter. $59,500. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. That is what I wanted to get at, the amount you had for that last year. Dr. Monter. The cooperative work looking to the eradication of scabies in cattle and horses is regularly carried on in 13 States. Dur- ing the past two years there has been a considerable spread of. cattle scabies infection in the western States. This was largely due to ex- tensive forced movement of cattle from drought-stricken areas, dur- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 155 ing two successive severe droughts in the Southwest and one in the Northwest. These droughts occurred in regions in which the infec- tion exists to the largest extent—that is, Texas, eastern New Mexico Montana, and northern Wyoming. : : Cattle shipped from these areas were not in condition to be dipped nor would the pressing nature of the emergency. permit the delays incident to the application of all preventive sanitary measures. In fact, they could not get enough water to drink, let alone to dip them in, on account of the severe droughts. © r. McLavenuin of Michigan. Last: year the work seems to have gotten away from you, on account of the emergency. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; there was a considerable spread. Mr. McLavueutin of Michigan. In previous years were you making satisfactory progress ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. As I stated last year, the territory quaran- tined for cattle scabies was released, but this year we found these numerous outbreaks in different herds of cattle, and we have called upon the States to put these herds under local quarantine until they could be dipped. Mr. McLavenuuin of Michigan. Is that liable to recur, or is it something that you can prevent or eradicate? Dr. Mouter. We can control it very readily when we have the proper facilities. Most of this cattle scabies was brought from New Mexico and Texas, and from the Northwest. As I said, we realized that the owners did not have enough water for the cattle to drink, let alone to dip them in the dipping vat. Notwithstanding that we have had the setback I referred to, there were only 1,431 herds that were found infested, containing about 205,000 cattle. As you know, in the case of sheep scabies, some of the infested western range sheep came up from New Mexico into your State of Michigan and spread infection in about 54 bands in Michigan. Mr. McLavenuw of Michigan. Yes, we thought. we could in- crease the food supply by bringing in some sheep and feeding them on some vacant lands; and they brought in some disease. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; that 1s right. The next item is a $25,000 increase, in connection with the super- vision of the interstate transportation of live stock. The present allotment this year is $150,000, and if the $25,000 become available, it will bring the total up to $175,000. Recent years have wit- nessed great increases in the amount of work required in supervising the interstate transportation of live stock. Regular public stock- yards inspection and supervision are conducted at 42 live-stock markets, and in addition, work is performed as occasion may require, in 85 or more other cities. These points are scattered throughout the entire country. The duties in connection with public stockyards inspection have been broadened and greatly increased. Receipts of live stock at the central markets have been mounting, and the spread of sheep and cattle scabies infection, as already indicated, has made it necessary to exercise the greatest vigilance. The records show that during the fiscal year 1918, 17,019,386 sheep were inspected at public stockyards, while during the fiscal year 156 AGRICULTURE. APPROPRIATION BILL. 1919, 20,516,548 were inspected, and during the first four months of the current year 11,250,764 head of sheep were so inspected. — Smaller but consistent increases are shown by the records covering inspections of cattle. Due to the spread of scabies infection to the sheep-feeding States, the authorities of several of them have promulgated regulations re- quiring the dipping, under Federal supervision, of all feeder sheep moving from public stockyards into their respective States. This has increased bureau work at the public markets tremendously, as is shown by the fact that during the fiscal year 1919, 884,294 sheep were dipped under supervision, while during the first one-third of the current year, 2,277,137 head were so dipped. The assistance of bureau employees at public markets is also re- quested by the State authorities in the handling of numerous other details of the traffic in live stock from such markets into the various States. Another item in which there has been a very marked increase in the volume of work performed is that of supervising the immuni- zation of swine at public stockyards for movement therefrom for purposes other than slaughter. The number of hogs immunized under Federal supervision has more than doubled each year during the past three years. For instance, in 1917 we supervised the im- munization of only 94,720 hogs, while in 1918 there were 254,731, and in 1919, 614,673 hogs immunized at public stockyards, all of which meant considerably more work. This work is a very important item in the greater production of pork, as the animals immunized ordinarily average about from 100 to 110 pounds in weight, and after fattening in the country are returned to the markets at about 250 pounds average weight. If this Federal supervision were not maintained the animals now being immunized for shipment to the country would either have to be sold for slaughter without fattening or, if their distribution were per- mitted, would spread swine diseases all over the country with resulting tremendous financial losses caused by such diseases. Swine immunization is work that requires the very closest super- vision, because of its technical character and because large quanti- ties of potentially dangerous products are handled. It therefore adds greatly to the cost of supervision over the interstate transpor- tation of live stock. Following its policy of cooperating with State authorities to the fullest posable extent, the bureau also supervises the immunizing of swine for intrastate movement when it is requested by the State authorities. In addition to the above factors there have been salary increases to employees in order to enable them to meet to some extent the advanced cost of living: This has been doné especially with lay inspectors, whose salaries in former years were very low, and a conics number of whom are assigned to duties at public stock- yards. The next item is paragraph ©, which requires the appropriation of $3,020 more for the supervision of the importation of animal by- products, including hides, wool, forage, ete. ts ae Cuarrman. This is for the inspection of the importation of ides? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 157 Dr. Mouter. The importation of hides; yes, sir. The work under this project is conducted in accordance with joint regulations of the United States Treasury Department and Department of Agricul- ture, which confer upon this bureau the authority and responsibility of supervising the sanitary handling and disinfection of hides, skins, wool, etc., after arrival in this country whenever such mate- rials come forward from a foreign country. without certificates showing freedom from the infection of certain diseases. The United States has become one of the great markets for for- eign hides, skins, wool, and other animal by-products, and with foot-and-mouth disease and rinderpest and anthrax prevalent in many of the countries supplying materials, it seems even more essential than ever that a careful supervision be maintained over their importation. The present allotment of funds for this work is proving inade- quate and will not enable the bureau to continue efficient control over shipments of this character. A large percentage of these im- ports are entered at the port of New York and from our records it is possible to show the increased volume of unrestricted hides, skins, and wool constituting such shipments handled by the bureau during July, August, and September, 1919, as compared with the same period of 1918. It may be a matter of interest to know that for those three months in 1918 there were 33,394 hides imported, while in July, August, and September of 1919 there were 1,436,000 hides imported, an increase of over a million hides. There were 2,170,000 skins imported in those three months in 1918, while for the first three months of the fiscal year 1919 there were 8,400,000 skins, an increase during those three months of over 6,000,000 skins imported into the country. The same is true with bales of wool. The Cuarrman. How do you account for the large increase in the importation of hides and skins? Dr. Montrr. The great demand for the raw materials to be made up into manufactured goods by our textile workers in the United - States. The Cuarrman. Is that permanent, or just to meet the war emer- ency ? . Dr. Monter. I am afraid it will not be permanent, because Ger- many before the war imported more skins and hides than we did, and I am afraid that we will lose a great deal of that business as soon as the textile workers of Germany get back to their industry. The Cuatrman. The hides and skins are imported and manufac- tured into finished articles? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The same thing is true as to bales of wool. There were 1,632 bales of wool imported in 1918 for those three months, and for the first three months of this fiscal year there were 3,275 bales imported, an increase of 1,643 bales of wool. Mr. Rusery. That increase in the importation of hides, I suppose, accounts for the price of shoes going up? ; Dr. Monter. I do not know. It seems paradoxical, and it is in- deed pretty difficult to explain why the price of shoes have gone up so tremendously. 158 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION ‘BILL. The last item in that appropriation is $2,000 for the inspecting and testing of animals for export. The expense in connection with the exportation of live stock has been greatly increased, due in part to the shipment of cattle to France and Belgium for restocking the devastated areas of those countries. There were included in these shipments in the four months, July to October, 1919, 10,492 dairy and breeding cattle gathered from many different States and for- warded to Newport News for embarkation. All of these required bureau inspection and tuberculin testing. ; Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. I thought you were going to do that under the previous item. Dr. Mouter. Which item? Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What the gentleman spoke about when the tuberculosis item was under discussion. One of the gen tlemen said that he went down to South America and worked up a big foreign trade for cattle and was talking about inspection for tuberculosis in animals that were to be shipped abroad. Dr. Monier. That item you refer to is the $1,500,000 for the eradication of tubeculosis. This export work does not help to eradi- cate tuberculosis in this country by the accredited herd plan. It merely helps to build up an export trade. We have specific authority for fostering an export business in live stock and their products. The Cuarrman. How much was appropriated for: this last year? Dr. Monter. $7,000. Mr. Lez. What type of cattle are we exporting to France? Dr. Moutsr. Seventy-five per cent were Holstein grades. The re- maining 25 per cent were high-grade cattle, mostly of the dual pur- pose type. The cows were not pure bred but all the bulls were pure- bred Holsteins. Taken as a whole they were a high-grade type of dairy stock. The Cuairman. The export business is increasing ? Dr. Mouter. Very much so. The Cuatrman. I take it that.the export trade is more or less tem- porary. Dr. Mouter. Yes; but I saw while I was in Chicago last week an order for over 800 dairy cows to go to Mexico. Cuba also is buying a great many dairy cattle, and, as Mr. Harding said this morning, the increased demand from South American countries has been enor- mous, not only for cattle but also for hogs. The present allotment of funds for this work is proving inadequate and will not enable the bureau to continue efficient control over shipments of this character. The exportations of sheep to Canada has likewise been unusually heavy. Thus, as compared with the entire year ending June 30, 1919, during which 5,163 sheep were exported, 10,938 sheep were ex- ported in the first four months of the present fiscal year. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Does Canada accept any inspection by State authority ? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; she does not. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Why? Dr. Monten. It is pretty difficult to give the reason for the other person, but I imagine they have found that these health certificates, especially the tuberculin test charts that they have accepted in the ast, have not been satisfactory; so they require a certificate from a federal inspector. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 159 Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. If the Government did not do it, what would ultimately be the result? The States that are not carry- ing on a proper inspection would come to find it necessary, would they not? They would be compelled to encourage a proper system of inspection, to carry it on, or their people would lose the trade? Dr. Mouuer. I think what would happen, Mr. McLaughlin, is that if the bureau did not make the inspections of cattle, hogs, and sheep the Canadians would not get anything of that character from the United States. I talked with the veterinary director general last week in Chicago, at the International Live Stock Show, about ac- ‘cepting the States’ tuberculin certificates from the State men, and he told me very frankly that he was not in a position to accept those certificates at this time. He is, however, in position to accept cattle from our accredited herds without any further restriction, and to allow them to come into Canada on an accredited herd certificate; but further than that he would not go at this time. That is the posi- tion you will find the Canadian authorities have taken with reference eC the various certificates from State officials for cattle, sheep, and ogs. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. I have no doubt that is their posi- tion now; but if the States learned that their people could not do business with Canada, pretty soon they would come to the conclusion that it would be better for them to establish inspection services and do it right. Dr. Mouter. Yes; I agree with you. The Cuatrman. According to your table, you employed 265 in '919, paying them $464,000. For 1921 you estimate for 251, with an expenditure of $557,660. Dr. Mouter. On what page is that, Mr. Chairman? The Cusrrman. The table is on page 48. Dr. Monter. What is your question ? The Cuarrman. You are asking for fewer men and more money? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That is explained, I take it, by the fact that a number of them were employed part time or Lemporary ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; and you also understand that the amount under the column for 1919 is the actual expenditure that has been aid, while the amount for 1921 is purely a pro forma estimate. hat is the best approximation that we can give you so far in advance, but you will notice that 88 men who in 1919 were veterinary inspec- tors at $1,800 were promoted, so that in 1921 they will get $1,920. There is the same number of men, but they have been increased $4,560 in salaries. The same thing obtains right through the list, which explains why a smaller number of men may receive a larger total in salaries. The Cuarrman. Are your salaries in general satisfactory? Dr. Monter. I would not say they were satisfactory, but they are much better than they were this time last year. The morale of the force has improved 50 per cent;.so much so that a number of. men who resigned before the 1st of July have returned to the bureau service since the salaries have been increased. However, the entire bureau force is expecting more adequate adjustment of their salaries as a result of the labors of the Congressional Reclassification Com- mission, and therefore I shall not discuss this subject now. 160 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION. BILL. The CHairman. What would you say about including on the statutory roll a number of these new places? Dr. Mouuzr. I am very strongly opposed to— The Cuatrman. There is much oposition to the lump sum appro- priations in the House. It is contended that they should be placed on the statutory roll so that the House may know exactly the num- ber to be employed. ° Of course, you give an estimate of the number here, but that is not definite nor entirely satisfactory to the House. Dr. Moutuer. Personally, I am very strongly opposed to putting these scientists, laboratory workers, and inspectors on the statutory roll. The present plan of having them on lump-sum rolls makes the service a very flexible organization. As an illustration, if, like at present, we are spending pro rata more money than is available for tuberculosis eradication, instead of laying off or dismissing 100 men, we can bring them over to our meat inspection service. The winter sea- son is starting, and the amount of meat inspection is greatly in- creasing. There is more live stock being brought for slaughter at this season of the year than at any other time. We can bring those men in and put them into meat inspection work, and in the spring we can send them out when hog cholera is starting to appear in the country. When you have them on the statutory rolls, you can not make that transfer without causing a great deal of hardship. The Cuatrman. In what way? Dr. Mouter. If we had a man who was drawing a certain salary on a statutory roll in tuberculosis eradication, and we found that our money was short, we might have to transfer him to a vacancy in the meat inspection work which might be of so subordinate a character that it would be worth $300 or $400 less than he received. Or he may be working alongside of a person who would be getting considerably more money than he. There is no way of controlling these things on the statutory roll, as is evidenced by the repeated experiences with the clerical statutory roll, where two clerks doing the same kind of work may get a difference of $300 in salaries. The Cuatrman. You transfer them back and forth? Dr. Mouter. We make the force as flexible as we can. We do not want an expert on tuberculosis who knows nothing about ticks, or an expert on meat inspection who knows nothing about hog cholera. We try to keep all our inspectors fully informed about every line of work in which we are engaged. The Cuarrman. You transfer them at the same salary? Dr. Monier. Yes, sir; we do. The Cuarrman. Why would it not be just as well to put them on the statutory roll at once? Dr. Mouter. If we had the statutory roll under tuberculosis eradi- cation, and had 80 men, 380 of whom were getting $2,200 and 50 $1,800, when we came to transfer them to other lines of work they would naturally be placed in work vacancies where they are needed irrespective of the amounts they may be drawing on the proposed statutory roll. At the present time we can adjust things without fear or favor. If there is a vacancy we can promote the most de- sirable man. -This statutory roll proposition, so far as I can see, is a very serious thing to a wide-awake, outstanding young man. He has AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 161 to wait for the man in front of him either to resign or die. There is no vacancy that he can fit into because they are all occupied. Fur- thermore, new places on the statutory roll must be estimated for by the bureau. practically a year in advance, and such places must be approved by the Secretary, your committee, and Congress, and may always be stricken out by a simple point of order from the floor. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Under item 60 there are a number oes kinds of work, for which a lump sum of $557,000 is pro- vided. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLavcuiin of Michigan. We are often asked on the floor how much money is being used for a particular piece of work, and how much for another piece of work, and how much for another piece of work, and sometimes we are unable to answer. I think, as we go along, where an item contains a number of different kinds of work, you ought to help us by stating how much money you spend for each particular kind of work. * Dr. Mouter. I have that right here and would be very glad to tell ou. : The Cusamman. The note indicates the number to a certain extent but when grouped it is difficult to ascertain the exact number of each. Dr. Mouter. The present appropriations covered in this item are as follows, for sheep scabies, $151,378. The Cuarrman. That is for the current year ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; that is for the current year. We have not asked for an increase in that item. For cattle and horse scabies, $59,500, and we are asking for an increase of $10,000. That makes $69,500. Interstate transportation, $150,000, and we are asking for an increase of $25,000. For the 28-hour law, we have $27,840, and we are asking for no increase there. For the mallein testing of animals for interstate shipment we have $5,000; for the importation of ani- mals, $64,980; for quarantine inspection, $12,000; for the importation of by-products, $16,980, and we are asking for an increase of $3,020. For testing animals for export we have $7,000, and we are asking for an increase of $2,000 there. For the inspection of vessels we have $2,500. For the laboratory work, including the dipping outfits for scabies and the work of manufacturing mallein and the preparation of dips and disinfectants for the disinfecting of hides, we have $15,000. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. You spoke of some by-products. What are they? Dr. Monter. Animal by-products. That would be knolls of wool, bones, hoofs, horns, hair, and different products of that character. The Cuarrman. That is $15,000? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; $16,980. That is the item for importing by- products where we are asking for $3,020 in addition. The Cuarrman. Is that for the current year or 1921? Dr. Mouter. $16,980 is for the current year, and we are asking for $3,020 in addition for next year. — The Cuairman. $16,980 for the current? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; $16,980. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. You have to inspect those by- products to see that they do not carry any disease ? 164315—20——11 162 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter, Yes, sir; and if they are not accompanied by a cer- tificate, they are all disinfected so that we shall take no chances of bringing in foot-and-mouth disease, rinderpest, etc. Mr. McLaveurtn of Michigan. Have you particular places where they are permitted to be brought into the country? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; principally New York, and also Philadel- phia, Boston, and Baltimore. They are all coming in under inspec- tion. Also camel’s hair, hog bristles, and things of that kind would all be included in the by-products. ’ Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. How about coming across the line from Canada by rail, or from Mexico? .Dr. Mouter. We have the customhouse officials of the Treasury Department working in cooperation with us, and they notify us whenever anything is coming through. They very frequently are allowed to enter the country, in bond, but they have to be disinfected at destination, if necessary. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. -When the Treasury officials notify you, do you have a man to go in answer to that call and make an inspection ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; we have men scattered along the Canadian border at different points, especially at railroad centers. The Cuairman. Why not put all of the veterinary inspectors in one group at a certain salary and then apportion them as you think best? Dr. Monrer. It would not work out well, if you are going to confine this number of veterinarians each at so many dollars per annum on the statutory-roll basis, for the reasons that I have already mentioned. It is submitted that in a work so extensive and com- plicated as the meat-inspection service and the great eradicative meas- ures handled by this bureau, including foot-and-mouth disease, if necessary, it is absolutely impossible to predict a year ahead how many employees will be required, with their salaries. The transfer of technical and scientific employees to the statutory roll, such as is now provided for the clerical force of the depart- ment, would, in my opinion, be a calamity. It would not be a ca- lamity to scientific workers alone, but to the Government and people of the country as well. It is a well known fact that the adoption of the statutory roll for clerical employees, making it necessary for the clerks to depend upon the resignation or death in the service of em- ployees to secure promotion, has in no way tended to increase the efficiency of the clerical force. It has made promotion so slow and opportunity for advancement so remote that many of the best em- ployees have resigned and others who are of high natural ability have lost interest and refuse further to exert their best efforts. Such action would undoubtedly cause the best men in the scientific and technical hranches to leave the Government service as scon as the opportunity offered. Promotion at present is extremely slow. The salaries of Govern- ment workers are now below the scale paid by State institutions and far below that paid by commecial institutions. Not only would capable employees gradually leave the service, but the service would not attract men from the outside. It is difficult enough at the present time to obtain satisfactory scientific employees, without increasing this difficulty. € AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 163 I believe that, if possible, the salary system for scientific em- ployees should be made more elastic than it is at present in order that those who prove their efficiency by the results accomplished may be rewarded -promptly. This would, in my opinion, give a tremendous stimulus to the research activities of the Department of Agriculture. The appropriations for the salaries of scientific and technical em- ployees, which at the present time can be used as the work requires, could not be economically administered under a statutory system, and there would be a tendency to maintain continuously a larger staff than necessary in order to be able to meet emergencies. It is also my belief that fewer applications will be received for appoint- ment in the bureau service if this class of employees is placed upon the statutory roll. I might add that the turnover in our bureau in the last 12 months has been almost 40 per cent. We have lost 1,956 employees in the last fiscal year. Mr. Russy. How many men, approximately, did you dismiss dur- ing the year? Dr. Mouter. Eight. My. Rusey. For inefficiency ? Dr. Mouter. For various reasons. i Mr. Harrison. That does not, of course, include reductions in orce. Mr. Rusey. I am just asking for the number dismissed. Do you have difficulty in dismissing a man from your service who is just simply lagging along, doing what he is required to do, but doing it about as inefficiently as he can and at the same time keep his place? Do you have any trouble getting rid of that sort of fellow ? Dr. Mouter. It is a very difficult thing to get rid of a man who is just about on the border line. Mr. Rosey. Under the civil-service regulations you can not dis- miss a man without charges being preferred against him, can you? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; we can not. Mr. Harrison. The procedure is prescribed by law. We are com- pelled to prefer charges against a civil-service employee before he can be dismissed and frequently it is exceedingly difficult to cite specific instances wherein he has been inefficient. The natural result is that many people stay in the Government service who would not be retained by a business organization. Mr. Rusey. I just wanted to call that matter up. Mr. Harrison. I think it is safe to say that it frequently takes from a month to two months to dismiss an employee from the service. Mr. McLavucuuin of Michigan. Before whom do you have to ap- pear and make your charge against a man? Mr. Harrison. We do not have to appear before anybody. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. You spoke about the necessity of making a showing. To whom do you make it? ; Mr. Canpter. Do you have to take it up with the Civil Service Commission ? ‘ Mr. Harrison. We do not have to take it up with the Civil Service Commission. We send the record to them after we have acted. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Does the Civil Service Commis- sion pass on your complaints against your own employees? Mr. Harrison. No; they do not pass on our complaints; we merely file with them the papers showing our action. Here is the difficulty. * 164 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. We are compelled to cite specific instances of inefficiency, assuming that is the charge, and that is exceedingly difficult in many cases. We may know that the employee is generally lazy, or a number of relatively minor things may have occurred which indicate that he is generally inefficient. You can appreciate how cases of this sort will arise in a large organization, yet when it comes to preferring specific charges, indicating specific instances of inefficiency, it is an exceed- ingly difficult thing. All cases involving disciplinary action other than a reprimand are considered in the Secretary’s office, and, if the charges are not sustained, the employee, of course, is not dismissed. Mr. Rupey. If the man himself is not satisfied he can go to the Civil Service Commission and take it up with them and ask them why he has been dismissed, can he not? Mr. Harrison. Yes; he may take it up with the Civil Service Com- mission, and at times the Civil Service Commission has communi- cated with us about particular cases, but, so far as I know, it has never objected to our action. Mr. Canoter. If the Civil Service Commission does not approve -your action in discharging a man, can they reinstate him? Mr. Harrison. No; they have no power, as I understand it, to revise the action of the department. The Cuairman. Why not put all of the veterinarians in one group? Mr. Harrison. One of the greatest difficulties is that we are com- pelled to make these estimates so far in advance. We can not even guess with any degree of accuracy what the conditions are likely to be next year. It seems to me that some latitude must be left to the department in the handling of its personnel. -The Cuarrman. You have a veterinarian listed on several pages. Why not put them all under one group? Dr. Monter. That is according to the procedure adopted by the department years ago and is, I believe, in accordance with law or at least with the requirements of the Littlefield committee. The Cuairman. We write our own bill. When we appropriate a lump sum we do not know how the salaries are apportioned. You make estimates and, of course, we know that you expect to carry them out in good faith and that these are the salaries that you ex- pect to pay. It amounts to the same thing, but a statutory roll is a more comprehensive and intelligent way of doing it. Dr. Mouter. I object to putting them on the statutory roll and confining a certain salary to a certain position or to a certain man. I have been told that there were statutory positions established some years ago for scientific workers, and it was abandoned because it did not function satisfactorily. Mr. Harrison. Some of the States have tried it but it has been a miserable failure. Dr. Mouter. I know that is true. The Cuarrman. This is practically the same. You are indicating to Congress just what you expect to pay in salaries. You start on page 43 with one veterinary inspector at $3,500, one at $3,000; and so on. That is what you state that you expect to pay. Why. not- write it in the law? Dr. Mouter. At the present time the Secretary- can reduce that salary or raise it, but if you state in the law that the Chief of the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 165 Quarantine Division must get $3,500, it takes it out of the discre- tionery power of the Secretary entirely. This chief might leave and the next man might not be worth $3,500. But you must fill it or have the money lapse into the Treasury. The Cuarrman. We could specify out of a $100,000 item intended for salaries that $75,000 should be paid at certain rates on the statu- tory roll, and carry $25,000 in a lump sum so as to give you some dis- cretion and leave it flexible. It seems to me that the lump-sum appro- priations are unjustifiable, and an unbusinesslike way of doing it. Congress has been criticized for it. I believe that this committee has reported bills carrying a larger statutory roll than practically all the other committees together, but I believe it can still be improved upon. If Congress is to determine what salaries are to be paid or are to have anything to do with it, it should be done in the act. Dr. Mouter. Congress has already stated that the Secretary will be permitted to pay $4,500 as a maximum salary for scientific workers, and he has not abused that privilege. I think it is much better to leave these lump-sum salaries ‘to his discretion rather than to make it compulsory, for instance, that the Chief of the Quarantine Division, or the assistant chief, be given just that amount and noth- ing more or nothing less. That is where the hardships of the statu- tory roll, to my mind, come in; it is so absolutely inflexible. The Cuarrman. If these tables in the estimates are not to be adhered to they do not amount to anything. We, of course, expect you to make certain changes, We know that you carry out your estimates in good faith. When we get on the floor we are criticized for lump-sum appropriations. It is stated that there is nothing to indicate what they will be used for. The only way of answering the criticism is to call attention to the estimates and the plans indicated therein. Mr. Harrison. The department, of course, can not say absolutely what it will be necessary to do 12 months from now. The Cuarrman. I do not ask to state exactly, but to come some- where near it. : Mr. Harrison. This is our best estimate. This is what we intend to do so far as we can determine on the basis of present conditions. The Cuairman. It should be something more than an intention, it should be written in the law. Mr. Harrison. There are many arguments in favor of lump funds, especially in connection with the prosecution of scientific and techni- cal work. The matter was thoroughly discussed and a statement prepared by a committee working for the Joint Commission on Re- classification and printed in the Star of November 9. The committee has indicated some very specific, and I think sound, objections to statutory rolls, and I would like to read the statement to the com- mittee. It is a long statement, but the matter we are discussing is one of the most fundamental problems in the Government service to-day— the question whether the hands of administrative officials are to be further tied by statutory rolls or whether they are to be given some discretion in the administration of the work authorized by Comgress. The Cuarrman. I do not want to tie their hands, nor do I want to leave it entirely to them as at present under the lump-sum appro- priations. . 166 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveutty of Michigan. If we could get rid of the respon- sibility and give it to you, I would be very glad to do it. : Mr. Harrison. If Congress authorizes the expenditure of a cer- tain amount of money for a certain kind of work, it is then up to the executive officers, the men who are doing the work, the men who are actually responsible for the results secured, to carry out the purpose of Congress. The Cuairman. But it is the duty of Congress to know how they are going to spend it. Mr. Harrison. Next year we will, of course, report the results to you, and, if Congress does not think that the expenditures we have made are justified, then it should cut the appropriation. I think anyone in the Government service holding a responsible’ po- sition will say that the one thing that would seriously disrupt the Government service would be to put the scientific and technical workers on the statutory roll. The absolute hopelessness that prevails among employees on the statutory rolls, knowing as they do that they may stay there for years without material advancement, that their ability, ambition, and energy will not be adequately recognized, is very demoralizing. We have come here year after year with recommendations for pro- motions on the statutory rolls, but they rarely ever go through. You gentlemen know that we proposed a readjustment in the lower grades on the statutory rolls last year, but no action was taken. There have been very few changes on these rolls in the last five or Six years. The Cuarrman. Your statement would be an argument in favor of the statutory roll. I am perfectly willing to accept the statement and the judgment of the department. I do not believe anybody wants to cripple the department. We do not want to cut salaries. We want to give all they are entitled to; but I do like to do busi- ness in a businesslike way, and the ordinary business man would not continue over the new year if he did not have some system of doing business in a regular businesslike way. The only way to do business is to know exactly what your money is to be expended for, and it is the duty and the function of Congress to absolutely determine this. Then it is left to the department to expend the money accord- ing to the direction of Congress. r. Harrison. Is there a business organization in the country, operating on a large scale, that tells its general manager just what he may pay in salaries a year from now? It is not my understand- ing that the board of directors of a business organization limits its general manager in the handling and pay of its personnel in the manner that the executive departments are limited. It might be said that Congress is the board of directors of the Government service and that the head of each department is a general manager. The budget of a business concern is usually fixed a month or two, perhaps less, in advance of its fiscal year, and even then much dis- cretion is given to the general manager in connection with the pay of the personnel. Furthermore, a meeting of the board of directors can be called at almost any time to deal with any unusual situation that may develop, so that, in any event, a fixed salary roll in business would not present the same difficulties that exist in the Government service o-84 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 167 The Cuairman. The general manager submits his plans to the directors, and the directors determine it. Mr. Harrison. Certainly. The Cuarrwan. It should be so with the Government, too, as with any well organized business institution. Mr. Ler. I do not believe there is any man in the world who runs his business a year in advance. The Cuarrman. Let us leave some latitude, of course. If we are to accept the statements of the department without writing it in the law, we will have to say to Congress, “ Here is what the department expects to do,” as we have done from time to time, and for which we have so often been criticized. Dr. Mouter. It is just a matter of integrity. That is the point I want to emphasize. There certainly has been no abuse in any buréau of the Department of Agriculture of this lump-sum roll, and I am sure you will find it would be the worst thing that could happen in our department, particularly to our best men, if they felt that they were going to be shackled by the statutory chain of a certain salary for a certain job. Instead of losing 1,900 employees we would lose practically all of our best men, and we are losing them fast enough under present conditions. sai We know the psychology of these men, and we know the psychol- ogy of our clerks under the statutory roll. We run our offices with a lower average grade of clerks as compared with what we would have if a lump sum were available to pay them from. The same thing would obtain if we had to put our scientists on the statutory roll. Mr. McLaucuiin of Michigan. There is an appropriation of $557,000 and you might expend all that for salaries if you wanted to. Dr. Mouter. No; that is unthinkable. That is what you gentle- men seem to understand generally. We could not put all of that in salaries. We have a certain amount of work to accomplish, and if we paid these men $557,000 in salaries, when we came here next year we could not show you any results. I keep coming here every year and keep showing you that we are protecting the live-stock interests of the country and giving you results. We could not possibly do that if we were only paying salaries. Mr. McLavcuriwn of Michigan. The statement that was made a few minutes ago was that it was the duty of Congress to make ap- propriations and put them in the hands of the executive departments to do with them just as they please. Mr. Harrison. I do not think I made that statement. Mr. McLaveuurin of Michigan. I do not believe that is the limit of the responsibility of Congress. I do not like to assume respon- sponsibility I do not have, but I feel some measure of responsibility as to how this money is spent. ; Mr. Harrison. I did not mean to suggest that Congress should not put any limitation on appropriations that may seem to it to be wise, but I was merely trying to point out, Mr. McLaughlin, that some of the limitations handicap the executive officers, and to express the view that it is necessary for Congress to trust such officers to do their duty. These men feel their responsibilities and will, of course, en- deavor to carry out the wishes of Congress as best they can. This 168 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. tuberculosis matter is a case in point. The department urged Con- gress not to place any limitation on the expenditure of the appro- priation, realizing then the situation which was explained to you this morning would develop. I was answering Mr. McLaughlin’s statement, and was referring to a specific case where Congress exercised its judgment, as it-had a perfect right to do, and refused to trust its executive officers. As a result importayt work that ought to go forward has been held up and it has been necessary to discharge a number of men. A consider- able sum of money, appropriated by the Congress for the eradication of tuberculosis, can not be used for that purpose because of a, limita- tion of the appropriation and it is going back into the Treasury. Will it not be time to raise that question when there has been an abuse of the authority and of the leeway you have given us? The Cuarrman. My contention is that we should do business in a business way. As a private individual, I would not expect to do business in this way. It is a question as to whether I do my duty as a Member of Congress, or turn everything over to the Executive. : Of course, I have confidence in the Executive, but that is not enough. Mr. Lesuer. To what extent would you suggest that these salaries be put on the statutory roll? : ~The Cuairman. I would not put them all on the statutory roll, but a large number of them. Mr. Lesuer. Put them all on the statutory roll? The Cuarrman. No. Not all of them. Here is an item of $527,- 000, with not one salary on the statutory roll. I can not conceive of any business man saying that that is a businesslike way of doing business. F Mr. Harrison. It is not my understanding that any business organization has an inflexible roll which can be changed only once a year. Mr. Rupey. Mr. Chairman, I want to study this question and I want to get all the information I can on it. Mr. Harrison a moment ago called attention to a statement prepared by the commission on the reclassification of salaries, and I believe it would be a good idea to print it in the record so we can look it over carefully. The Cuarrman. I have no objection to that. Mr. McLaucuurn of Michigan. By whom was it prepared ? Mr. Harrison. It was prepared by one of the advisory committees, Mr. McLaughlin, appointed by the Joint Congressional Commission on Reclassification, a committee consisting of Mr. Manning, Chief of the Bureau of Mines, Mr. Myers, chief clerk of the Treasury Depart- ment, Mr. Ryan, of the Bureau of Education, and Dr. E. B. Rosa, of the Bureau of Standards. They set out under various headings the disadvantages of the statutory roll. The first heading, for instance, is the “ Difficulty of foretelling statutory positions needed,” under which the committee indicates very clearly the impossibility of any satisfactory. estimate, so far in advance, of the positions required. We can not say now what salaries it will be necessary to pay next July. Congress authorizes a new line of work and we go ahead and organize it, securing the best available men at salaries they are willing to take. We can not tell in advance what we will have to pay them. Other headings in the statement are “Inequalities and AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 169 injustices under statutory salaries” and “ Unused statutory vacan- cies.” Year after year we have many low-salaried statutory places which we are unable to fill and the money goes back into the Treas- ury. The committee cites many other disadvantages of statutory rolls, but I will not attempt to enumerate them. Mr. Russy. May that go into the record? The Cuarrman, Yes; I have no objection. (The matter referred to follows:) Lump-SumMm Wace APPROPRIATIONS ARE Favorep.—107,000 Unitep States Em- PLOYEES AFFECTED BY SUBCOMMITTEE’S PROPOSAL.—STATULORY SCHEDULE MEETS. OpPposiTION.—THOROUGH RECLASSIFICATION OF SERVICE PROVIDES FOR ADEQUATE PROMOTIONS. _ Lump-sum appropriations for salaries as opposed to statutory fixing of in- dividual wages for the 107,000 Federal workers in the National Capital was recommended to the Joint Congressional Commission on Reclassification of Salaries in the District to-day by a special subcommittee composed of Van. H. Manning, Chief of the Bureau of Mines, chairman; Paul Myers, chief clerk of the Treasury ; W. Carson Ryan, jr., Bureau of Education, and Dr. E. B. Rosa, of the Bureau of Standards. “The object of Congress in establishing statutory positions is to retain con- trol of the salary schedules of the Government service,” declared the summary of the elaborate report. ‘The object of the administrators in advocating lump- sum appropriations is to secure sufficient freedom to do the Government work efficiently. OBJECTS NOT TO CONFLICT. “The two objects are not necessarily in conflict,” continued the summary. “A thorough reclassification of the service, with adequate provision for promo- tion and a strict supervision by a central agency, will accomplish both objects. “ (bo) The commission, by the very fact of making a complete classification’ of all positions, will answer the demand of Congress by assigning definite salary scales for all positions, which will be approved by Congress. The question of- Jump sum or statutory will, therefore, if the commission’s reclassification report is adopted and a budget system introduced, be settled by incorporating the best features of each into the new, system. “ (ce) The central agency that will be set up to carry on the classification— supposedly the Civil Service Commission—should have representatives in every department to cooperate with the department heads in personnel matters and to check up the whole system for the Government. Full reports should be made to Congress annually, showing the working of the system and suggesting any necessary amendments of it.” The reclassification commission has taken no action as yet upon the recom- mendations. The full report, with the exception of the summary already given, follows: . “4, STATUTORY SALARIES. d “ Statutory positions are fixed by Congress for each bureau or administrative unit in the service in the annual appropriation bills, the number of positions of each kind and the salaries of each being specified in detail. These positions are of two kinds, (a) where the salaries and titles have been standardized, and (bv) where the salaries and titles are recommended by the bureau chief or head of the particular branch of the service concerned. No change can be made in the title or salary of any position after it is granted except by Con- gress, and this is done only in the annual appropriation bills. Moreover, any increase of salary is subject to a point of order in Congress, and hence even if the appropriations committee has recommended an increase in any given case it can only be granted by unanimous consent. “This fact alone, namely, that Congress has provided no regular method of revision of salaries or making promotions in statutory positions, and can not do it if a single Member objects, is one reason for discontinuing such a system. As estimates are made out by the departments at least 9 months before the beginning of each fiscal year, it is 21 months from the time the estimate is 170 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. made until. the end of the fiscal year during which the money is expended. Of course, it is impossible to foresee the requirements of a bureau’s personnel or of the personnel of any particular line of work in a bureau accurately in detail a year or more in advance. No matter how carefully the work may be planned, condit:ons change ard it is usually necessary to modify plans and make changes in personnel, sometimes very considerably, to meet changed con- ditions. “2. DIFFICULTY OF FORETELLING STATUTORY POSITIONS NEEDED. “But even if external corditions did not change, it is impossible to foretell how work will develop and just how many men of different kinds and grades will be reeded for a given investigation. Suppose, for example, an investiga- tion is undertaken which requires physicists, chemists, mechanical engineers, statisticians, and clerks. To estimate a year in advance how many men of each kind will be needed and the salaries of each would be little better than guesswork. When the work is undertaken the men in charge of the several branches of the work develop the problem gradually, and they gather their personnel as needed and as they can. It is partly a question of what is needed to do the work as it develops and partly a question of what men can be found who are competent and available at the salaries that can be paid. “Tf man who is splendidly equipped for some part of the work is found who can be had at $4,000 a year, it is very awkward if the highest statutory salary available is $3,000, and only statutory salaries are available. Perhaps: two chemists are needed and only one has been. estimated for; or perhaps two mechanical engineers were provided and it is found that one would better be an electrical engineer. In short, to be hampered and embarrassed by restric- tiors of this kind which do no good and make it impossible to carry out work efficiently is exceedingly undesirable. “Under a lump-fund appropriation the bureau chief is free to employ the men most needed and to make salaries fit the men, instead of trying to fit the men to predetermired salaries. Under this plan the service of anyone may be discontinued when not required and the money used for some other position. The plans for the work may be developed gradually and the division of funds between salaries and other expenses may be determined by the needs of the -work and not by a guess made a year in advance. “3, PROMOTIONS. “Under a statutory-salary plan promotions are made by advancing men to vacancies at higher grades. These vacancies usually arise either by the securing of new positions at higher salaries, or by resignations. In a bureau that is growing rapidly there are apt to be many new positions, and if these are secured in the upper grades, promotions can be provided for. It is impos- sible, however, to foresee a year or more in advance where promotions are most needed, and it is also impossible to foresee what vacancies are going to occur by resignations. Hence it often happens that it is difficult or impossible. to make the promotions that are most deserved, and one is obliged instead to. make such as can be made. That is, promotions can not be made strictly on merit, but must be determined to a large extent by accident. It may happen that two men of the same salary are equally deserving of promotion, but there is only one vacancy. Perhaps the next higher vacancy is $400 above the given salary. The just action would be to give each $200. But that is impossible with statutory salaries, as the salaries can not be changed. One must be given $4 and the other nothing, or else neither promoted and the position left vacant or filled by an appointee from outside the bureau. “Such distressing situations often arise where statutory salaries prevail, but do not on a lump-sum basis. Where a bureau is growing slowly or not at all there are vacancies for promotions only as resignations occur at the top, or salaries are increased by Congress. Vacancies at the top due to death are usually too slow to provide promotion. Hence resignations must be depended upon, and these are apt to be from the men that are most useful. To lose the best in order to promote the rest is very detrimental to the service... A lump- fund plan that will permit promotion of those who deserve it most without sacrificing valuable members of the staff is extremely important. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 171 “4, INEQUALITIES AND INJUSTICES UNDER STATUTORY SALARIES. “Tf a position has a special title and there is only one of a kind in the bureau, promotions can not be made without special action of Congress. For example, chief chemist, chief clerk, chief mechanician, chief engineer, secre- tary, librarian, and a great many other similar positions may occur only once in a given scientific bureau. The holders of these positions frequently go on year after year without promotion, and although they may be especially de- serving. Sometimes they resign for this reason; sometimes they are trans- ferred to other positions where they can be promoted; sometimes their salaries are raised by Congress. The latter action is relatively infrequent, however, and this partly because the bureau chiefs are often instructed not to ask for any increases in salary. Bureau chiefs should be encouraged to equalize salaries when they become unequal—to correct injustices when they occur. However, it is well known that promotions and equalization of salaries are being made for lump-sum employees, and for statutory employees where there are vacan- cies. Nevertheless, all departments are frequently requested to ask for no in- creases in statutory salaries, even to correct the most glaring cases of injustice that may arise through the inflexibility of statutory salaries. This is one of the strongest reasons for discontinuing statutory salaries. 5. UNUSABLE STATUTORY VACANCIES. “At the present time there are a great many statutory positions in the Gov- ernment service vacant because the salaries are so low-that they can not be filled. In such cases the monéy can not be used for any other position or pur- pose but reverts to the Treasury.. This puts administrative officers under pres- sure to fill positions as best they can, even though unsatisfactorily, rather than get nothing out of them. This is not an efficient use of the money, but may be justified as being better than leaving the position vacant and neglecting work that is calling for more help. It hurts the service to have such cases occur, and they never do occur under a lump-sum plan. “6. OTHER DISADVANTAGES OF STATUTORY SALARIES. “Tt is inconceivable that a private corporation employing the services of scientific and technical men, and employing labor on a large scale, would operate on a statutory basis, as it promotes inefficiency and destroys the morale of the workers. If merit can not be rewarded when it is deserving, the result is loss of efficient conduct of the work. If not rewarded, the employee be- comes discouraged, and if he does not leave the service, his work usually deteriorates in quality and diminishes in quantity. As the number of such discouraged employees increases from month to month, the working morale of the force is weakened and the output soon decreased. The statutory salary does not encourage initiative, enthusiasm, or ability, and it holds the employee with these qualities to the salary level of employees lacking them. In the economical conduct of some special work, it is sometimes not advisable to promote the understudy for a particular piece of work to the salary vacated by the chief of the division or section where there is a wide range in sala- ries. This promotion should not be made until the successor to the section chief has shown his ability. Yet under a statutory system, it would often be necessary to promote the understudy to the chief’s position or leave the posi- tion vacant. Emergency work or work in an overburdened section can not be eared for, because of the special character of the work, for which men in any other section are not properly qualified; and even when so qualified, their as- signment to the overburdened section will usually mean embarrassment to the work of the section from which they are taken. “7, FILLING POSITIONS OF SPECIAL CHARACTER. “Probably never before has the overwhelming importance of the personal zquation been so fully recognized as it is to-day. One man makes a brilliant success where another has failed totally, although having the same advantages at his disposal; another, surrounded by every advantage which could reason- ably be expected, permits the decay and dissolution of a great business built. 172 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. up by a predecessor under the most adverse conditions. The reason for the success on the one hand and the failure on the other is directly due to the man involved. Therefore, people universally recognize the importance of se- curing and retaining the services of the right man, and no commercial organi- zation would consider depriving itself of the power to pay a larger salary than usual in order to obtain the services of the right man for a particular line of work. Therefore, if the head of a bureau is authorized to make certain inves- tigations which required a man of unusual talent who could not be obtained for the salary fixed by law he would lose the opportunity of obtaining this man; whereas if some elasticity is provided the services of the best man could be secured. : “8, OBJECTIONS TO LUMP FUNDS. “ Statutory salaries present so many difficulties and disadvantages that in some bureaus lump funds are in vogue much more than statutory funds, and in some almost entirely. One of the principal objections to Jump funds has been that the various bureaus are enabled to fix salaries without con-. forming to a common scale, and considerable inequalities arise. It is true that the character and quality of the work varies in different cases; and. the salary scales perhaps vary less than they appear to do. But it must be granted that there are differences for men of the same qualifications and responsibilities, and if proper coordination and standardization of positions and salaries had been carried into effect the objections to lump-sum salaries would have been less felt. “ Another objection to lump funds has been that men could be transferred to- them at higher salaries than they are getting on statutory rolls. This was so strongly felt that it led to legislation forbidding this. However, we believe that difficulty arises primarily from the fact that because promotions were im- possible on statutory funds it was sought to do justice to men in the only way possible. Thus the legislation resulted in either driving men out of the serv- ice or depriving them of promotions to which they were entitled. It may be in some cases that men have been promoted who did not deserve it. But that can happen under either plan. “Certainly the advantages of a» lump-sum plan are very great, and if its principal disadvantages can be eliminated statutory salaries could be largely or entirely dispensed with to the lasting benefit of the Govenment service. “9, A STANDARDIZED PERSONNEL. “The congressional reclassification commission is engaged in classifying all Government positions in the District of Columbia and proposes to make oul a system of standardized titles with the duties and qualifications for each. A range of salaries for these various positions will presumably be suggested. If Congress adopts the report and fixes the salaries, it will be setting very definite restrictions and giving very definite instructions to the bureaus in making appointments and promotions. If funds are provided to the various bureaus for their work in accordance with some kind of a budget, in which the work to. be done is described and the money to be spent is estimated, together with an approximate list of positions of various grades that it is expected to fill, then the bureaus will be free to spend the money as efficiently as possible and not be tied up by fixed numbers of fixed salaries as-under the present statutory system, nor left as free from restrictions as to salaries as under the present lump-fund system. The disadvantages of each plan will largely be done away with and the best features of each preserved. It will, of course, be necessary under this plan that the permanency and stability of statutory places be secured for the permanent positions in a bureau. It will also be necessary to have some sort of effective supervision of promotions, such as the Civil Service Commission gives to appointments, to see that the scheme of standardized salaries is followed, that exceptions or special cases are justified, and that the interpretations of the terms expressing the duties and qualifications of the various positions are substantially uniform in the different bureaus and depart- ments of the Government.” “10. PROMOTIONS UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM. “How promotions shall be made under the new system has not yet been decided. It is very important that they be made according to merit, rapidly for those who develop rapidly, slowly for those who progress slowly. Any ‘ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 173 system which makes it impossible to promote men and women according to merit can not be satisfactory or right. Automatic promotions which put all in one class and offer no incentive to industry and effort are of course out of the question. On the other hand, if there is no automatic promotion there should be provision for systematic revision of salaries and frequent promotions for all who deserve them. Some method of recording the quantity and quality of work done and the responsibilities carried would seem to be necessary for all grades of the service. If this can be provided and the range of salaries specified can be made adequate and sufficiently flexible in some way so that they can be maintained comparable with salaries outside the Government service, it ought to be possible to maintain a high grade of personnel and to conduct the Government efficiently on a business basis. “11. SUPERVISION OF THE NEW SYSTEM. “The Civil Service Commission, if enlarged and strengthened, could effec- tively perform this function of supervising promotions and transfers as they now do and see that the standardized system of titles and salaries is followed. It would be desirable to have a representative of the Civil Service Commission permanently detailed to each one of the large bureaus to cooperate with the chief clerk or. appointment division in matters of appointments and promotions. Other representatives of the Civil Service Commission could go about among the smaller bureaus giving assistance where needed and seeing that ‘there is satisfactory compliance with the system established by Congress. This will give Congress more adequate control over salaries and positions than here- tofore. without unduly embarrassing the bureaus in carrying on their work.” The Cuarruan. The function of Congress here is to determine these salaries, and unless ‘we do that we are not performing our uty Shall we surrender them to the Executive as we have in the past ? . Mr. Rusey. I at one time was a member of the appropriations committee of the State Senate of our State. Our committee made appropriations for every institution in the State, and we made lump-sum appropriations. We could not do anything else. We ap- propriated so many thousand dollars for the State University, so much for the different insane asylums, so much for the penitentiary, and so much for the different institutions throughout the State, and the State of Missouri runs its affairs in that way to-day, and gives to the people who have charge of the expenditure of that money in the institution the distribution of that money and the use of it in the way in which they think will be for the best advantage of the institution. Every institution, of course, reports to the legislature the following year how much of this money has been expended and the details, and the name of every man that has received a penny is on that list, and when they submit their estimates to the com- mittee they set forth their estimates for every person they want, and the salary they expect to pay him, but they do not always know that they can get him for that salary, and sometimes, as has recently happened, they have had to pay him twice that much in order to retain him. The president of our university, Dr. Hill, is now on the point of going to California at a higher salary, but they will prob- ably pay him that higher salary to keep him in the University of Missouri. If, however, we said, “ You can pay Dr. Hill $7,000,” they could not pay him any more, and they would have to let him go. Dr. Monter. The point I tried to cover was that there has been no abuse of this lump-sum appropriation in our department. In fact, the Secretary has given the $4,500 maximum salary that he is permitted to give by Congress, to only a very few of our most effi- cient and outstanding people. 174 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. - The Cuarrman. You are limited, of course, to $4,500, but you can put everybody up to $4,500? Mr. Harrison. The records will indicate that we have not done so. The Cuarrman, I do not question the integrity of the department. it = talking about business methods, and I am trying to do my uty. Mr. Harrison. It is merely a question of what “ business methods” means, and people will differ on that. I doubt whether there are many business concerns which do not vary their plan of operation to suit their own particular needs. . The Cuamman. One would not be in business very long if he con- ducted his business,in this manner. It accounts to a certain extent for the inefficiency of the Government. It is the loose way that Gov- ernment business is transacted. I do not know that we can look for any remedy or reform it. I know that I could make certain changes that would be to the benefit of the Government, but that is not the trend at the present time. The executive naturally wants all the power he can. Why have Congress unless it exercises its rights and prerogatives? If we are going to turn all these matters over to the executives, what is the use of Congress spending any time on them? Mr. Harrison. Congress, of course, controls the appropriations and indicates the manner in which, or the purpose for which, the money may be expended. : The Cuarrman. We ought to have something to say about what it is going to be used for. You spoke of checking up. Can any one point out where Congress has checked up anything? We have had one report from the Committee on Expenditures in the Department of Agriculture. I think we have had about three reports on these expenditures in these 20 years that I have been in Congress. Mr. Harrison. The department, of course, is not responsible for that; we submit a report on expenditures every year. The Cuarrman. That is a different thing. You are a part of the executive branch, and we a part of the legislative. It is the duty of the legislative branch to check up just as much as it is your duty to check up. Mr. Harrison. I do not think the department should be made to suffer on that account, and it will suffer if all salaries in the depart- ment are placed on the statutory roll. The Cuarrman. I stated at the outset that we wanted to make it as flexible as possible, but not as loose as it. is at present. I am criticizing Congress, not the department, for this method. Mr. Harrison. We are suggesting in these estimates that you authorize the transfer of the forest supervisors, the forest rangers, and the forest guards. These employees have been on the statutory roll for several years, and the arrangement has proven to be an absolute failure. e are merely asking you to give us in a lump sum. the total of the statutory salaries provided in the present bill. The only. alternative is to considerably increase the salaries of the men at present employed. We are not asking for any increase in the amount appropriated but, with a lump sum, we will be able to handle the situation with the same amount. I take it that Congress is primarily concerned about the total amount provided for a par- ticular purpose. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 175 The Cuarrman. You have $140,000,000, all told; you suggest that we give you $33,000,000 in a lump sum to go out and expend it as you see fit. . Mr. Harrison. I think such an arrangement would enable the executive officers to perform their functions much more effectively and efticiently, but, of course, I am not suggesting that any action of this kind be taken. The Cuarrman. Why do you not suggest that so many million dollars be appropriated, and Congress stop with that? Mr. Harrison. We are merely contending for reasonable latitude. The Cuairman. I am perfectly willing to give you reasonable latitude; I am perfectly willing to do that. Mr. Harrison. Congress turned over $21,000,000 to the Internal Revenue Bureau in one lump sum. The Cuairman. Yes; and we regret that we did it. It was neces- sary. That was during war times. : Mr. Harrison. I understand that it was done this year. The Cuairman. And the pity of it is that the truth will never be known. It was necessary to do it under war conditions. Mr. Harrison. I do not think there is any bill that comes before Congress that is so completely itemized as this bill. The Cuarrman. When it comes to salaries, as I stated at the out- set, we carry. nearly as many, if not more, on the statutory roll as are carried in all the other appropriation bills, but that is no excuse for not doing so all along the line. I believe this committee is en- titled to more credit than nearly any other committee, as far as that goes, but, after all, it can be improved upon and should be improved upon. That has been my contention. I have talked about this until I am pretty nearly tired of talking of it. I have talked about it anumber of years. It has taken a foothold, and Congress has given it a some attention. I still believe what I am contending for. I do not want to suggest anything radical, but anything we can do along business lines to improve the methods ought.to be done. With the unrest in the country and everything else taken into consideration, I believe it is time to give some consideration to these matters. I do not want, to iniure the department or anybody. Mr. Harrison. I don’t know of anything that would more seri- ously cripple the department than to put the scientific and technical force on the statutory roll. I think that statement will be supported by everybody who has had any responsible experience in the Govern- ment service. Mr. McLaveuiun of Michigan. How many of these 252 men on page 43 would be called technical men? Mr. Harrison. They are all technical men. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. There are several executive clerks there. Dr. Mouter. They are all technical or professional men except those in the last eight lines. The latter include messenger boys, an executive clerk, clerks, and laborers who would not come under the lump-sum appropriation this year, as they were transferred by law to the statutory roll on July 1. The Cuairman. This is a matter that we will have to take up carefully. I intended to bring it up, and have discussed it with a 4 176 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. number of members who I believe have it in mind. Some day we will have to discuss it further and settle it one way or another. We will go on with our hearings now and take this up as a separate proposi- tion. When we write the bill it will be a question whether we will write the salaries on the statutory roll, or whether we will make these lump-sum appropriations. That is a matter of policy for the .committtee to determine. Mr. Harrison. Will you not give the chief of the various bureaus an opportunity to tell you just what effect such action would have on their activities. They are responsible, in the final analysis, for the work under their direction. The Cuarrman. I will be very glad to do that. We want informa- tion, we want to discuss it with you. I do not know what the com- mittee may have in mind, but I have in mind exactly what I have stated to-day and all these years. Mr. Harrison. May I inquire whether the committee thinks of acting in advance of the report of the Joint Commission on Reclas- sification? That commission is investigating the whole subject and will make its report to Congress. It has accumulated a mass of data about the Government service. The Cuairman. There is no more consideration to be given to that commission than to other commissions. I take it we will lose nothing by taking action. Mr. Ruzey. When do you expect that report? Mr. Harrison. The commission is required by law to submit its report during the first week in January. ie Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Is that the commission composed of Mr. Keating, Mr. Cooper, and so on? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. It has secured complete records of 107,000 Government employees here in Washington, their duties, and sala- ries, etc., and it has classified them into a number of different serv- ices. It has also accumulated a great deal of information about sala- ries paid by outside agencies. The Cuairman. The committee will now recess. ~ CoMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, House or REPRESENTATIVES, Wednesday, December 10, 1919. Bureau or Anrmat Inpustry—Continued. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. The Cuarrman. We have a number of gentlemen with us this morning interested in the tuberculosis appropriation, from whom we will hear first. This is found in item 61, page 44, of the estimates, “For investigating the disease of tuberculosis of animals, for its con- trol and eradication, for the tuberculin testing of animals,” and so on. Mr. Smith, who is live-stock commissioner of the Chicago Live Stock Exchange, will take charge of the order of the witnesses, suggesting the names of those who desire to be heard. Mr. Smirn. Gentlemen, we appreciate very much the opportunity of being given this hearing, to come here and express some views we AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 177 have on this situation, and I would like, first of all, to have Mr. Brown, who is president of the Chicago Live Stock Exchange and president of the National Exchange, which is an organization taking in all of the live-stock exchanges in the United States, say a few words, first, on the general subject. The CuHarrman. We will be pleased to hear Mr. Brown. STATEMENT OF MR. EVERETT BROWN, PRESIDENT OF THE CHI- CAGO LIVE STOCK EXCHANGE. AND OF THE NATIONAL EX- CHANGE. Mr. Brown. Mr. Chairman, as well as having the titles that the honorable professor has indicated, I was appointed four years ago as chairman of the sanitary committee of the Chicago Exchange, which has actually to do with the work on tuberculosis, the promo- tion of the eradication of tuberculosis, and I was chairman for that time. We feel that we have accomplished a great deal on that work in assisting the different departments of the Government who have had that under supervision. I may say, in starting, that we had a gathering in Chicago on the first night of the International Live Stock. Exposition, representing 32 States and representing all the breeding associations in the United States that were interested in this eradication of tuberculosis. Prof. Smith will present to you, I think, the resolutions which were offered at that time and carried unanimously by that aggregation of gentlemen. I am particularly requested to present to you the request of the National Exchange, the Chicago Exchange, and our sanitary committee, in the hope that the unused appropriation passed by the last Congress—which, I un- derstand, is approximately $800,000—may be distributed so that the operating expenses of the Bureau of Animal Industry—which have been, I understand, restricted because certain amounts of this fund have been particularly appropriated to cover the operating expenses and the other part of the fund the indemnification—that that fund which now remains, of $800,000, which was intended only to be used for indemnification purposes, should be distributed to permit the proper operation of the Bureau of Animal Industry so that they could proceed, and that the indemnification amount would also apply so that this fund could be used in its broader purposes in the eradi- cation of tuberculosis. The last Congress appropriated $1,500,000 for the eradication of tuberculosis during the fiseal year ending June 30, 1920. Of this amount, $500,000 was appropriated for operating expenses, such as the preparation of tuberculin, payment of salaries, and general administration, whereas $1,000,000 was set aside for the payment of indemnities to the owners of reacting cattle slaughtered. The fund for operating expenses is now nearly exhausted, but there is still left in the indemnity fund something over $800,000. Ap- parently it has not taken as much money for the payment of indem- nities as many of us predicted. In order that the work may be continued through the year it is hoped that Congress will pass some kind of resolution giving the Bureau of Animal Industry authority to draw on the indemnity fund for the payment of operating ex- penses. It is further to be hoped that in making the appropriation 164315—20—-12 178 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. for the next fiscal year the law can be so worded that the bureau will be able to draw on the entire fund for either operating expenses or the payment of indemnities. In connection with this we are looking forward, gentlemen, to what we hope will be an increase in the appropriation in the next Congress. We believe this work is so important that we hope your committee will recommend to the next Congress an increase in the appropriation and in connection therewith, and I desire to present to you that the Chicago Live Stock Exchange and the other exchanges in the United States favor liberal appropriations for the eradication of tuberculosis for the following reasons: Statistics from the Division of Meat Inspection of the United States Department of Agriculture show that approximately 10 per cent of all the hogs slaughtered in the United States are affected with tuberculosis. These statistics also show that the disease is very prevalent among cattle, more especially among dairy and breed- ing cattle in the northern half of the United States. That the large quantity of beef'and pork annually condemned for tuberculosis means not only a great waste of valuable meat, but also a waste of feed that went into these animals. -We frequently get reports of cattle that die on farms from tuberculosis. The loss on meat condemned by Government inspectors in packing plants, while borne for the time being by the packers, eventually falls back on the producer. Tuberculosis has been costing shippers of hogs to the ‘Chicago market an average of 15 cents per hundred during the past year. That tuberculosis is a hindrance to the breeding-cattle industry and discouragement to production. That while tuberculosis is causing a greater annual loss than any other disease of farm animals, it is not highly contagious and can be eradicated. Control work that has been in progress in some of the States and in the Nation-wide campaign inaugurated two years ago by a congressional appropriation of $500,000, conditional upon State cooperation, has already shown results. The percentage of cattle retained for tuberculosis affected with the disease at the Chicago market during the fiscal year 1917 was 4.34 per cent, and during the fiscal year 1919, 3.09 per cent. The percentage of cattle condemned for tuberculosis at the Chicago market has been reduced from 0.94 per cent in 1917 to 0.57 per cent in 1919. The percentage of hogs retained for tuberculosis at the Chicago market has been reduced from 16.28 per cent in 1917 to 18.21 per cent in 1919. The percentage of hogs condemned for tuberculosis has been reduced from 0.34 per cent in 1917 to 0.21 per cent in 1919. If the percentage of condemnations in cattle killed at the Chicago market during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919, had been as high as dur- ing the year 1917, 24,282 cattle would have been condemned or 9,830 more than were condemned during the year 1919-—worth, at $100 each, $983,000. Had the percentage of condemnations in hogs at the Chicago market been as high as in 1919 (0.21 per cent) as in 1917 (0.34 per cent), the number condemned in 1919 would have been 28,424, or 10,535 more hogs than were actually condemned in 1919, worth, at $40 each, $421,400. Lastly, tuberculosis in hogs comes almost entirely from cattle through infested milk and droppings. If the disease can be eradi- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 179 cated from dairy and breeding cattle, it will disappear to a large extent’ from fattening cattle as well as from hogs. The sentiment throughout the country is favorable to the plan of testing all breed- ing dairy herds with tuberculin. There are a large number of farmers who have made application for the test, but it can not be given them because of a lack of Federal and State men to do the testing. .A much larger appropriation is needed to carry on this work and we hope it can be made an annual appropriation until the disease is practically eradicated. Now, gentlemen, if there are any questions you would like to ask me regarding this work, as far as I can give you any information, I will do so. The Cuarrman. My understanding is that the item in which you are most interested is the one of $500,000 for~administrative and operating expenses? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Thank vou, Mr. Brown. May we have some in- formation as to that item, and as to what is required ? Mr. Suiru. My idea is that you should have an adequate sum for indemnity ? STATEMENT OF MR. HOWARD R. SMITH, LIVE STOCK COMMIS- SIONER OF THE CHICAGO LIVE STOCK EXCHANGE. Mr. Smiru. As I understand the situation, when this first came up many of us thought that the money required for the payment of indemnities should be greater than for the payment of expenses. I personally thought so, and I remember I talked with Mr. McLaugh- jin, of Michigan, and I thought it would take a good deal more money for the payment of indemnities for the actual cattle slaughtered than would be required for the operating expenses, the payment of sal- aries, etc. But we have, many of us, been fooled, for this reason: The price of beef has been very high, the highest on record in the his- tory of the country, all during the year. Beef has advanced in the last 15 years nearly four times. Top cattle are selling in the Chicago market for $21.50 a hundred. That does not meari the show cattle, but what we call the best cattle on the market. Beef has been selling very high and the salvage that beef men get or the proceeds they get from the sale of the salvage is high. I think you understand that - about 80 per cent of all the reactors slaughtered pass for food; that is, according to our own statistics, at the Chicago market about 80 per cent of all the cattle which have tuberculosis, pass for food. In other words, the disease is localized. Now, the facts are that beef brings almost as much as strictly healthy cattle would bring, and the result is this, that the farmers have been able to get a very good revenue out of that beef—what we call the salvage. And I think you men understand that the law is worded so that cattle that react on the test are appraised on the basis of the breeding value and the difference between the proceeds from the sale of the meat and the breeding value of the animal, that loss is borne, one-third by the Federal Government, one-third by the State, and one-third by the owner. I want to say to you gentlemen that that has proved to be a very valuable provision. The law is worded so that the loss 180 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. on the basis of the breeding or dairy value is borne one-third by the Federal Government, up to certain limitations. The Federal Gov- ernment does not pay in any case to exceed $50 as its share on a pure bred, or $25 on a grade. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Do you understand that the ap- praisal is on the breeding value alone? Mr. Suiru. Yes; on the breeding value. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Does the law require that? Mr..Smiru. Yes; the dairy or breeding value, Mr. McLaughlin. It is worded so that it is limited to a rather small sum, but it is on the basis of the dairy or breeding value. Now, the difference between the value of the meat of the animal and the breeding value of the animal represents the loss sustained. I can put it in this way: Sup- pose I have a dairy cow that reacts and the appraisers value that animal at $150 and that animal goes to slaughter and the meat passes inspection and the meat brings $75, which is not unreason- able. Now, the difference between that value of the meat which I get and the $150 which represents the breeding or dairy value of the animal means a loss of $75 to me. The Government pays one-third of that loss, which is $25; the State pays one-third of that loss, which is $25, and I stand the other one-third. The Government does not pay more than $25, no matter how valuable the animal is. If that animal had been appraised at $200, I would not have gotten a cent more. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. The law, as I understand it, is as follows: That out of the money hereby appropriated, no pay- ment of compensation for any tuberculosis animal destroyed shall exceed one-third of the difference between the appraised value of such animal and the value of the salvage thereof. I do not see any- thing about breeding value in there. Mr. Smiru. It says appraised value. Mr. McLavcuurn of Michigan. Yes, appraised value, for beef, for dairy, or for breeding purposes. Mr. Smiru. The appraised value would necessarily represent the real value for whatever purpose it is intended. — Mr. McLauecuttn of Michigan. That is it, for whatever purpose. So are you entirely right in saying that that appraised value is for breeding purposes? That is the question I ask you; I do not think you are entirely right about that. Mr. Suir. I do not know that it is definitely stated in the law, but practically all of those cattle are breeding cattle or dairy cattle; there are practically no steers whatever, but they are prac- tically all breeding cattle or dairy cattle. I think I am right in that, Dr. Kiernan, that nearly all of these cattle are breeding cattle or dairy cattle. Dr. Kiernan. Yes. The Cuairman. The contention was that it would not, be neces- sary to protect steers. Mr. Suiru. No. What I was trying to bring out was this, that the proceeds of the sale of the salvaged meat, being very high, have gone a long way toward reimbursing these farmers, and that the one-third of the difference paid by the Federal Government and by the State has not been as great as it would be if the meat were lower AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 181 in price. I think you see the point there, that the meat value of the animal: has gone a long way toward reimbursing the owner and that the difference, representing the dairy or breeding value, is com- paratively small and the result has been the money required for the payment of indemnities has not been nearly as great as we an- ticipated; while the money required for paying the operating ex- penses has, of course, been heavy. Now, as I understand the situation, we found in Illinois that some of the Federal men, that their services had been discontinued, and naturally we made inquiry as to why their services had been dis- continued. Other States were in the same situation. Through in- quiry we found it was necessary because the operating fund was getting very low, whereas there was a little over $800,000 left in the indemnity fund. Now, in order that the work may not be hindered, that it may proceed through the year, up to June 30, we are hoping that some sort of a resolution will be passed authorizing the bureau to draw on the indemnity fund for the payment of operating ex- penses. If that can not be done, of course the work will have to stop long before the end of the year and there will still be a good surplus in the indemnity fund. That is the point we wanted to bring out. Are there any questions on that. The details, of course, on that will be presented by Dr. Mohler or Dr. Kiernan, represent- ing the bureau. I think possibly you may have questions to ask them a little later. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. One question naturally arises, and that is, how much of this inspection work should be done by the Federal Government. Some may think the work is of such a charac- ter that it does not require the highly expert work of officials of the department. The testing of cattle can be done by any veterinarian. Is it necessary and is it proper for the Federal Government to go into a State and do all that kind of work? Mr. Suir. I would like to say in that connection, Mr. McLaugh- lin, that the people as a whole look upon the work of the Federal testers as being about the best work that can be done along this line. There are, we are sorry to say, a good many local veterinarians whose work can not always be depended upon. If we ship cattle to Canada, the Canadian buyers insist upon Federal testing, insist upon the work being done by Federal men. And cattle that go into some of the States must be tested by Federal men rather than by State men. Now I understand it is the plan of the bureau to work out a scheme whereby many local veterinarians will be able to do some of this work, so long as their work remains reliable and good. That will probably be brought out later on. The Cuairman. Is not the State work generally accepted? Mr. Smitru. The State Work is generally accepted; yes. Mr. McLaventrw of Michigan. You say when cattle are shipped from one State to another, they are only shipped and only accepted by the State into which they go after Federal inspection? Mr. Smrru. Not all the States, but there are some States that want them tested by Federal men. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I understood the State certificates were accepted quite generally. Mr. .Smrru. I say the State certificates are accepted quite gen- erally. 182 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. Have you knowledge of any State certificates not being accepted in any other State? Mr. Smiru. A few years ago some States would not permit cattle to be shipped from the State of Illinois. » Dr. Mouter. Wisconsin was another. Mr. Smiru. They would not take it at all. Mr. Brown. They would not take it during the foot and mouth disease; during that trouble they would not take the State cer- tificates, The Cuairman. That is during an emergency, of course; which is different. Mr. Smiru. That is true of the tuberculosis also, is it not, Doctor? Dr. Mouurr. Yes. Mr. Suir. Some States will not accept cattle unless they are in- spected by Federal men. Mr. Tincuer. There is no experiment about the testing any more, is there? Mr. Smirn. No; not to any great extent. The tests now are con- sidered very reliable, but there are different kinds of tuberculin tests under investigation. Mr. Tincuer. What I mean is, have you not gotten a test that is not an experiment? Mr. Smiru. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincuer. Any graduate veterinarian could make that test? Mr. Sorry. Yes, sir; any graduate veterinarian could make the test. Mr. Tincuerr. Do you know any place where Federal men are mak- ing the tests now, and have, during the last year, made the tests? Mr. Suirn. Where Federal men have been making the tests? Mr. Trncuer. Yes. Mr. Smiru. The Federal men are making the tests in nearly all of the States. Mr. Tincusr. What do you mean by “ Federal men”? Mr. Suir. Men employed by the Bureau of Animal Industry. Mr. Tincuer. You mean they are actually making the tests? Mr. Suiru. Yes. Mr. Trncuer. I looked the matter up while at home and I found the tests being conducted there were being made by the local veterina- rian, who was appointed by the State veterinarian. Mr. Smiru. That is in Kansas. Mr. Tincurr. And was being paid for making that test by the owner of the stock. Mr. Surrn. Yes. Mr. Tincuer. And all of the Federal money was being used for demonstrating, as far as my State was concerned, as far as I could find out. Mr. Surry. The situation is this: If a man in your State, Kansas, sells a breeding animal to some other State, he can have that animal tested by the local veterinarian if that local veterinarian is approved by the State authorities. Dr. Mouter. Right there, I wish to state that Minnesota has re- fused to take any cattle from your State, Mr. Chairman, unless the _ inspections are made by Federal inspectors. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 183 The CuHatrman. How recently? Dr. Moner. Over a year ago. Every dairy or breeding animal that goes into Minnesota from Iowa is inspected by a Federal inspector. Mr. Tincuer. Here is the point I am making: Here we have a test which is no longer an experiment. If we have a serum or whatever you call it, a tuberculin, which is no longer an experiment, it does not make much difference whether one State sets itself upon a pinnacle and says “ We won’t take live stock from another State unless certain authorized men make the test” or not. For instance, I raise hogs; there is no occasion any more for the Government to appropriate money to make experiments with reference to hog cholera tests. I know how I can keep the hog cholera out of my herd; I know how I can be careless and let it get into my herd. But the Government has found a serum, and I am using that. Now, is not the tuberculosis test the same kind of a proposition, and if I want to follow the pre- scribed rules by your department I can get rid of tuberculosis in my herd of cattle and I can keep it out of there? Dr. Mouter. Many breeders are doing that through the employ- ment of private veterinarians. Mr. Trxcuer. I suppose the theory on which the Government origi- nally got into this thing was that they would benefit the industry by certain researches and investigations that would make it possible for aman to do that. But the Government can not eradicate by appro- priations and can not hire enough men to wipe out the tuberculosis of cattle; that is, to go and do the testing of the herds to do that. They have to have the cooperation of the owners of the herds of cattle. Now, if it is no longer an experiment, and if we have the method for doing that, is it not about time to let the individual take some responsibility ? Mr. Suiru. I think I can answer that question, Congressman, and I say there are some breeders who are hiring their local veterinarians. Now, they are doing it for this reason: There are many breeders that have very valuable cattle, worth a thousand or two thousand dollars, and if they put those cattle under Federal or State supervision they have pretty nearly got to have them slaughtered, and they can not afford to lose those valuable animals. And they are doing it in a private way; they are hiring local veterinarians and segregating those reactors and keeping them on the farms to raise offspring, and later on they will have them slaughtered. Now, there is nothing objec- tionable about that. Every man has a right to do that, which is a very good way. But in regard to private veterinarians I want to say this, that the reason some States will not accept the tests of private veterinarians is because we have found that a great many private veterinarians are not honest; they will do things in order to pass the animal, to give a certificate of health. They will sometimes do what we call plugging the test—it has been done frequently—by injecting tuberculin before the regular test is made. A very common thing among private veteri- narians is to make out a chart and not take any temperatures at all. They are working for this man, and he wants to get the animal through, and the local veterinarians is paid a little fee for making up a false chart. That is the reason a good many States will not accept 184 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. the work of a local veterinarian. The Federal man can not afford to do anything of that sort. The Cuairman. But how about the State veterinarians and their assistants? They are the ones to whom I have reference. I think in my State the State veterinarian has an assistant in nearly every county in the State. Mr. Smrrn. We have in Illinois State veterinarians and assistant. veterinarians. We have recently adopted a new plan in Illinois. The old plan was to have a sort of civil-service examination, and a man by answering certain questions could be put on the list as an assistant veterinarian. We had a lot of trouble with that plan; we had a lot of men on that list as assistant veterinarians who did dishonest work. At the last session of the legislature it changed that law, and we no longer have assistant State veterinarians ap- pointed in that way. The State veterinarian now appoints as as- sistant State veterinarians men who are reliable and will do that work satisfactorily. We have to have men who are dependable men, who do strictly honest work in making the tests. When that: is done they ought to accept State tests just as readily as Federal work, and I feel sure it is the plan to employ more and more of those local veterinarians who will prove themselves honest and capable. If a man sells an animal, he frequently hires his local veterinarian, but the local veterinarians, as yet, are not employed ‘to any great extent in conducting the whole-herd tests. You see, in this work of eradicating tuberculosis we have got to test the whole herd to make any progress. You can not go in and test one animal or two animals; you have to go through the whole breeding herd and clean it up, and either slaughter the reactors or separate . them. They usually slaughter them. That is the only way of making any progress in eradicating this disease. And to-day that work is being done to a large extent by Federal and State men, and it is planned to employ local men to a large extent in doing that work. / Mr. McLaveutrxn of Michigan. The idea advanced by Mr. Tincher, of Kansas, is that-it is the duty and entirely proper for the Federal Government to make the investigation and work out a plan and evolve ideas, principles, and so forth, that can be applied. When that is done, the application of them, after that, is simple, and it is a question of the physical labor and expenditure of money, and it is up to the local people to furnish that money and to do the work. I remember very well the statement made by Mr. Scott, of Kansas, formerly a member of this committee, and a very able man, who resisted the appropriation for work in the States in carry- ing out the plan evolved by the Federal Government, and he said that when the Government had worked out a plan and developed a principle, and there is no question about its successful opera- tion, and there simply remains the matter of carrying out, in- volving the expenditure of money and work, that in his opinion it was up tothe States to carry it out. I did not agree with him at the time as to the particular matter that was up before the com- mittee, but the more we see of demands of States for Federal ap- propriations and the employment of Federal agents to go into the States and do the work the more I come to think ‘that Mr. Scott AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 185 was right. It may be that this should be an exception in this case; perhaps the work is so big and there is such a general interest in it that it exceeds State lines and all that. But if Mr. Tincher is right, and you answered his question when you said there was no doubt about the efficacy of this testing proposition—if he is right about that, then it is simply a question of spending money by the States and hiring the right kind of men. And it does not seem to me that you answer the question when you say some of the State men are dishonest. Mr. Coox. I think I can give Mr. Tincher a little information. Take it in Montana: We have what we call the tail test; the inter- dermal, I think, is the proper name for it. Many States will not accept that test. We can not ship into Minnesota and many other States. We think that test is all right; the other States do not think so and they want a Government test. If we ship into Canada, they won’t accept our test there at all; they insist on a Federal test. I Imow some bulls shipped up there, tested by a man who was abso- lutely all right. He got them to the line and could not get them across. I went to Ottawa myself on behalf of the man (who was a friend of mine), but I could not do anything with them. They just absolutely refused to have anything to do with any tests made by any of the States. And we ship a great many cattle into Canada, and if the accredited herd system means anything at all, it means when you issue a certificate it is accepted anywhere. ‘Mr. Tincuer. Do you know the test that is approved by our de- partment ? Mr. Coox. That is the subcutaneous test. Mr. Trxcurr. Yes. Now, I do not know just how we can help your trouble, if your State is using a different test which is not ap- proved. It is not just clear to me. Mr. Coox. Other States are using it, too. Mr. Trncuer. I use the test approved by the Government. The veterinarian says it is all right. Just follow that out to its logical conclusion and see what would happen. Suppose we should say that no part of the appropriation should be used, because the Govern- ment has found a real test. Now right on that subject, Mr. Smith, you see I follow the test approved by the Government; I take the trouble to take care of my herd; my neighbor don’t: Is it your idea that the Government can force him to do so? Mr. Suir. Not necessarily. I do not think it is desirable. Mr. Tixcuer. Say you could not eradicate the disease from cattle generally in the United States—you could not get rid of it (you could not anyway, so far as that is concerned, by reason of its being a germ disease). Mr. Smiru. We can get rid of nearly all of it, Congressman. Mr. Tincuer. I do not suppose in this serum appropriation be- cause the disease is so prevalent, the germ is so prevalent—I do not suppose it woud be contended that we would be able to appropriate enough money to entirely eradicate the disease. Mr. Smiru. I just want to say on that, first, that all we know is that tuberculosis in hogs comes from cattle—almost all of it—and we know tuberculosis in fattening cattle comes to a large extent from breeding cattle, and we have every reason to believe we got this con- 186 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. tagion in this country from early importations from Europe of pure- bred cattle. Europe has a great deal of that disease, and those cattle were brought over here and they were sold to various breeders over the country and the disease was scattered. And I feel sure if we can go through those breeding herds and clean up those breeding herds you would see a big reduction not only in the breeding herds but in bhe prade cattle. It has already shown results. r. Trncuer. Is it your idea for the Government to appropriate enough money—say I have 100 head of cattle in Kansas, is it your idea that I can have them tested without cost to me? Mr. Smiru. Yes; by the State and Federal Government. Mr. Tincuer. That any man who has a breeding herd can have it tested ? My. Smiru. Yes, sir. Mr. Trxcuer. Without any expense to him? Mr. Suirn. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincuer. Then you are not beginning to ask for enough money in this appropriation, are you? Mr. Smiru. He should have the privilege of having his herd tested under State and Federal supervision. Mr. Tincuer. Free of charge? Mr. Smirn. Free of charge where he has his whole herd tested and where he signs up an agreement to abide by these regulations that have been provided, the sanitary regulations, etc. Now, the plan is very favorable for this reason, that it leads rather than drives. No man is compelled to have his herd tested, but the conditions are made such that he wants them tested; and if the testing is done free of charge and if the State and Federal Governments will share with the owner part of that loss, he is willing to have his whole herd tested. Mr. Trxcuer. When would you stop this law; when would you quit that; how long would you keep that up? Mr. Smrrx. It would seem as though it ought to be kept up until the disease is practically eradicated. , Mr. Trncuer. You can not eradicate a germ disease, can you? Mr. Smrru. You can reduce it to a very large extent. Mr. Tincuer. We have all had the experience with the cholera in ‘hogs and things of that kind. Mr. Smiru. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. How many years would you advocate keeping up this offer of a free Government test to all breeding animals in the United States? Mr. Suiru. I believe, Congressman, if this work continues, say, for 10 years, you will see it down to a pretty low point. Mr. Tincuer. With the money appropriated, it won’t begin to be enough to offer that free test to all the breeding herds in the United States. Mr. Smiru. It has been enough to cover something like 10,000 herds of breeding cattle this year. Mr. Tincurr. That would not cover my congressional district, Mr. Smith. Mr. Smiru. We are not encouraging the testing of all grade cat- tle. We are encouraging testing breeding herds, the thoroughbred herds, first, the seed stock. They are the most dangerous, and they AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 187 have the highest percentage of the disease. Further than that, these seed animals, as we call them, are scattered here and there over the country and they carry the disease with them. The general trend of the grade cattle is to the market, and they are not so dangerous; that is, the genera] trend of grade cattle is from the farm to the market, and they do not scatter the disease over the country. The pure bred cat- tle do scatter the disease, and I believe we ought to confine this work to a large extent to the pure bred herds first. Of course, in the grade herds, where we know it exists, we should extend this privilege. I believe that is the logical plan, to undertake the testing of the pure bred herds of cattle and those grade herds where we know the disease exists. Myr. Trxcuer. If you are right in that theory (and I do not doubt the figures at all given by the gentleman, that you have made a great saving in meat production)— Mr. Smrru, Yes. Mr. Tincuerr (continuing). If you are right in that theory (and we absolutely know now, as a scientific proposition, how to keep cholera out of hogs, and we know there is not any comparison with the figures of tuberculosis as to the loss of meat produced in hogs every vear by cholera), why not offer free to provide the vaccine and treatment of all the hogs in the United States by the Government? Mr. Smite. The Government is cooperating in vaccinating hogs. Mr. Trvcuer. A man raising hogs and observing the rules spends just so much money on every hog he raises to vaccinate it at a certain age. at Smiru. Really it would not. be a practical proposition for a man to have his hogs vaccinated unless he knew they were exposed. Mr. Tincuer. I differ with you there, that it is not a practical proposition to have the herd of hogs vaccinated. When you vac- cinate every one of them at a certain age, that is the only way to have an immune bunch of hogs. : Mr. Smrru. I have herds in southern Michigan, and they are never ' vaccinated unless I know cholera is in the neighborhood. Mr. Trncuer. That may be true in certain neighborhoods. Would it be practicable, within the next ten years, to have cattle that were not tested for tuberculosis, if you are going to eradicate that disease ? Mr. Surry. To have cattle that were not what? Mr. Trxcuer. That were not tested for the disease. Mr, Smrru. I think all the breeding cattle should be tested, be- cause you can not tell by looking at the animals whether they have tuberculosis or not. Mr. Tincuer. I wonder if the same situation does not prevail with cattle that prevails with hogs? It just occurred to me since we have been talking—I spoke of the fact in reference to our way of handling hogs in our locality—that the only safe way to raise hogs is to take them all at a certain age and have them vaccinated, and whert we do that at a certain age we are going to be free of cholera. I presume that is not true of the locality you mentioned. Mr. Surru. No. Mr. Trncurr. And probably that would be the same situation with reference to the cattle. 188 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Sirz. Yes. Mr. Tincuzr. But we know the treatment for hogs, and any man can buy the vaccine for so much and have it administered: The Gov- ernment found that out for us; we appropriated the money, and it has ascertained that treatment. Mr. Smirn. Yes. : Mr. Tincuer. Now they have done the same thing with reference to cattle. The only thing worrying me is where we are going to stop. I am for the cattle and for the appropriations necessary, but it looks to me like an awful big proposition to appropriate enough money to give free tuberculin tests to all the cattle in the United States if a man wants it. Mr. Surry. There is this difference: You can always know when there is an outbreak of cholera, but no man can tell when there is tuberculosis in a herd of cattle until they are tested for tuberculosis. That is the only way to tell, to have a man go through the entire herd and make the test. Mr. Trncuer. It is too late to tell with hogs after they get the cholera. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. We have been told by some scien- tific gentlemen that tuberculosis is not transmitted to the offspring. Mr. Smiru. It is not, Congressman, ordinarily. A calf can be weaned from its mother and can be raised a healthy calf if it is taken right away. If it is left to nurse the dam, it is in great danger of contracting the disease from the mother, or if it is left in the stall and eats out of the same manger there is great danger of its con- tracting the disease. But if the calf can be removed from the cow it can be raised a healthy calf, and many are doing it. Mr. Tixcuer. It is exactly the same proposition as tuberculosis in the human being; it is a germ? Mr. Situ. A germ. Mr. Trxcuer. And there is not as much probability of eradicating it in the catttle as there is in the human family. ~ Mr. Smiru. I just want to give you the figures to show the actual progress that has been made in the last two years: The following table, compiled from data furnished by the division of meat inspection of the United States Bureau of Animal Industry, shows the number of cattle and hogs slaughtered at eight Middle West markets. the number and per cent retained (tagged) for tuberculosis, the number and per cent sterilized and the number and per cent condemned because of this disease during the fiscal years ending June 30, 1917; June 30, 1918; and June 30, 1919: Passed, Per Con- Per cent. | sterilized.) cent. | demned. | cent. Total Retained | per for tuber- slaughter. eulosis: 2,160, 899 93, 896 4.34 4,757 0. 22 20,293 | 0.94 - 2) 563, 572 99,105 3.86] 5,864 23] 18,153 | .78 2) 593; 819 80,223] 3.09] 5,684] .22] 14,552] .57 1, 318, 550 8,727| .66 404; 04] 2,197] «17 1; 572, 342 97518} .60 561} .03| 1,718] .W 1} 528, 295 6,863 | 45 534] .03| 1,279}. .08 866, 340 14,953} 1.73 874] 10] 2,178] .25 967, 714 13,796 + 1.42 941 :09] 1,881 | .19 997; 462 13,821! 1.38 62! .06! 17805! 118 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. -189 Total ere Per | Passed, | Per Con- | Per slaughter. culosis. cent. |sterilized.| cent. | demned. | cent. CATTLE—continued. East £t. Louis: 1917. . 670, 818 3, 163 0. 47 223 0.03 } - 856 | 0.13 714, 120 3, 706 ~52 7 238 - 03 +928 +13 683, 786 3,055 44 376 +05 710 -10 . 850, 147 2,832 -81 103 +03 750 +21 451, 238 2,974 - 66 128 202 631 +13 472, 006 2,457 52 127 - 03 398 - 08 267,737 13, 703 5.12 380 +03 2,880 | 1.07 299, 728 5,774 1.92 192 - 06 1, 403 247 256, 413 5, 232 2.04 206 - 08 1,145 45 237,777 7,745 3. 25. 299 +13 1,193 - 50 308, 237 9,037 2.91 284 -09 1, 555 «50 345, 322 8,271 | 2.36 335 -09| 1,309] .38 94, 536 4,375 4.62 121 13 907 +96 108,727 3, 689 3. 39 182 «ll 622 57 118, 632 5,717} 4.81 131 ll 889} .75 5, 966, 824 149, 394 2.50 6, 591 -12 31, 254 52 6, 983, 728 147, 599 2.11 3,390 - 05 26, 891 38 6, 995, 735 125, 639 1.79 8,021 «ll 22, 087 -31 SWINE. 7, 550, 530 | 1,229,297] 16.28] 31,274 41] 25,791 | .34 6, 692, 697 i 016, 171 | 15.18 27,840 -41 18,152 | .27 8,359, 895 1, 104; 631] 13.21 35, 677 39 17,899 | .21 2, 890, 627 105, 137 3.64 3,377 AQ 5,897 | .14 2, 775, 329 128,348 | 4.62 3, 951 14 3,534 | .13 4,011, 475 192, 508 4.79 5,551 .14 4,189] .10 2, 236, 715 189, 441 8.47 8,079 36 4,614) .21 2 132) 068 171, 468 8.04 8,121 -38 3,670 | .17 2, 841) 140 236, 027 8.32 9, 466 33 5,359 | .11 1, 653, 839 159,817 | 9.67 2,895] .18 2,170] .13 1, 490, 954 119, 723 8.03 3,439 «23 1,865 | .12 1, 954, 694 141, 361 7,22 4,111 21 2,080 | .10 2, 109, 540 80,638 | 3.92 1,360 .06 3,527] .17 1, 772,773 68, 776 3.88 1,418 08 2,059 | .11 2, 167, 416 76,746 | 3.54 2, 087 09 1,860 | .08 1, 229, 235 74,227 | 6.04 991 .08 1,452] .12 1, 190, 948 , 5.05 1, 440 42. 1,063 | .08 1,345, 770 78,922 5.86 1,851 13 1,340 | .09 1,360, 469 244,591 | 18.00 7, 744 .57 3,233 | .28 ; 232, 741 216,313 | 16.34 6, 359 48 4,476 | .34 1, 523, 563 179,331 | 11.77 6, 724 44 4,984 | .32 1, 042, 223 246,540 | 23.64 2, 956 28 1, 873 18 i 121} "361 272,651 | 24.31 3,191 27 2,064) .18 di 577, 398 334,300 | 21.18 2,723 17 2,859 | .18 20,073,178 | 2,329,688 | 11.60 58, 676 29 49,157 | .245 18, 408, 871 | 2,053,579 | 11.16 55, 759 30 36,884 | .200 23) 781, 351 | 2,343, 816 9.85 68, 190 24 40,570 | .17 If the percentage of condemnations in cattle killed at the Chicago market during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919 (0.57 per cent), had been the same as in 1918 (0.78 per cent), the number condemned in 1919 would have been 20,232 cattle or 5,680 more than were condemned worth, at $100 each, $568,000. If the percentage of condemnations in cattle killed at the Chicago market in 1919 (0.57 per cent) had been the same as in 1917 (0.94 per cent), the number condemned in 1919 would have been 24,382, or 9,830 more than were condemned worth, at $100 each, $983,000. Had the percentage of condemnations in hogs at Chicago been the same in 1919 (0.21 per cent) as in 1918 (0.27 per cent), the number condemned in 1919 would have been 22,572, or 4,673 more than were condemned, worth at $40 each, $186,920. Had the percentage of condemnations in Chicago in 1919 (0.21 per cent) been the sanie as in 1917 (0.34 per cent), the number condemned 190 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. would have been 28,424, or 10,535 more than were condemned in 1919, worth at: $40 each, $421,400. The reduced percentage of condemnations on both cattle and hogs in Chicago in 1919, effected a total saving of $754,920 as compared with 1918, and $1,404,400 as compared with 1917, assuming that the losses on cattle and hogs retained for tuberculosis, but not condemned would offset the value of the salvage on condemned animals. On the same basis of valuations, the reduced percentage of condemnations. on both cattle and ,hogs at these eight markets in 1919 effected a total saving of $2,136,860 as compared with 1917. It is apparent that the tuberculin testing of herds of breeding cattle, the elimination of the reactors and the adoption of better methods of sanitation is reducing the prevalence of tuberculosis is both cattle and hogs. For example, in 1917, 0.94 per cent of the cattle killed at Chicago were condemned for tuberculosis. In 1919, it was only 0.57 per cent. That is the best barometer of the conditons we have, when we get. these reports from the division of meat inspection and see the actual conditons at these various markets. J have here all the Middle West markets, and the situation with reference to hogs in Chicago is this. The percentage of condemnations has been reduced from 0.34 in 1917 to 0.21 in 1919. Now, something is causing this to begin to go down. It had been coming up all the time until this appropriation was provided two years ago. I think the farmers are cooperating well. I want to say to you men that in my work as live stock commissioner TI come,in contact with men from all over the country, farmers and stock men, and they are all very greatly interested in this work of eradicating tuberculosis. We find the shippers and feeders are all of them anxious to cooperate. They realize it is a real menace to the live stock industry. And I maintain that the testing that has al- ready been done and the improved sanitary conditions that have been brought about on our farms has been a big factor in reducing the prevalence of tuberculosis already. And that is the reason I do not hesitate to say if we can continue this work just the way we have been doing for 10 years, you will see, Mr. Tincher, that the situa- tion is so well in hand in this country that it can be controlled. I had a herd of cattle in southern Michig‘an and I had it tested five years ago and wherever I found reactors I disposed of them and I have a clean herd and have had no trouble since. And I know any number of breeders who had that done. Mr. Tincuer. Who tested yours? Mr. Suiru. A Federal man. Mr. Tincuer. Do you have him keep up the test? Mr. Smrru. Yes; every year. Mr. Tincuer, Is there a local man appointed by the governor? Mr. Smits. This work has been done = a Federal man entirely. Mr. Trncuer. Sometimes the Federal man is a home man, too. Mr. Suir. Ordinarily the Federal-man is stationed at some cen- tral point, and they go out and do the inspecting free of charge. Mr. Brown. From where was your inspector? Mr. Smrru. Detroit. He is stationed at Lansing now. And I have a great deal of faith in this accredited herd plan which has been launched through provisions made by this appropriation. The accredited herd plan is this: It gives every breeder a chance to have his whole herd tested annually, and he simply signs up an agreement to have the Federal or State man to make the test every year, and if they find reactors they tell him to send them to slaughter AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 191 or else to put them off by themselves so they won’t expose their cattle.. If they own real valuable cattle they frequently like to keep them until they get some offspring from them, and they are allowed to do that, but if they have an accredited herd they must have no tuberculosis cattle on the premises. After they pass a second test and are shown to be free from the disease they get a certificate show- ing their herd is free from tuberculosis. When they have that cer- tificate any breeder can ship cattle from his herd to any State of the Union without any special tests. Every State of the Union will take those cattle. This is proving to be a very popular plan and breeders all over the country are making an effort to have their herds cleaned up. They lose something; the Government pays a small part of that cost, the State pays a part, and the breeder loses the rest of it. But he is willing to stand that loss to have a clean herd and the fact that he can make interstate shipments without restrictions gives him an advantage. I am confident the way this thing is going to-day that in a few years we will have tuberculosis practically eradicated from cattle, pure-bred cattle, and I am satisfied it will make a great reduction in the prevalence of the disease among grade cattle. The way the work has been going we feel it is most en- couraging, and we simply want to give all these breeders an equal chance to have their herds tested. The facts are there are over 3,000 breeders to-day who have made application to have their herds tested and the Government and State men can not get to them. They have too many applications on their lists. And I be- lieve we ought to keep this up, and it is going to take more men, but as long as the breeders are willing to have their herds tested I believe we ought to make every effort possible to furnish the necessary number of men to do that work. Mr. Tincuer, What would you think of this proposition? We know what the test is; now, why not pass a law requiring before they can put their produce or stock in interstate commerce that they must make the test, that they comply with the law requiring that test individually. Mr. Suirn. That is frequently required now. Every State re- quires a test. Mr. Tincuer. Not for the produce, not for the butter. Mr. Sarr. Not for the butter; that is true. For the produce that is not usually required, but any animals must be tested you know. Any cattle sold into another State have to be tested for tuberculosis before they can go into that State. Now I would like to have Mr. Harding make a statement on this, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Smith. I will ask Dr. Mohler a question first. I would like to call your attention to the note in the book of estimates. It reads: “It is only necesary to point out that during the month of July, 1919, the department expended approxi- mately $35,000 for salaries and expenses and only $7,000 for indemni- ties, to show how the department is hampered by the restriction placed on the expenditure of its appropriation.” $35,000 would only be $420,000, and we are giving the department $500,000. I take it that is correct, Dr. Mohler? 192 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Dr. Mouter. This book of estimates was prepared back in August, so that the only month we had to base an estimate on was July. Since that time, for the first four months of the fiscal year, we have spent almost $200,000. At that rate, we will spend $600,000 this year, or $100,000 more than the appropriation provides, which means we will have to lay off 100 inspectors between now and the first of July, in order to reduce our expenses about $20,000 per month. The Cuairman. The estimates call for only $1,480,440, and we gave you a million and a half last year. Dr. Mouter. We are asking now that the proviso which Congress saw fit to put in last year be stricken out, which. proviso sets aside $500,000 for operating expenses and $1,000,000 for indemnities. The Cuarrman. But, after all, the indemnities are the most im- portant part; the inspection amounts to nothing unless you have money to reimburse the owner? Dr. Mouter. For’ the first four months of this year we have spent nearly $200,000 for operating expenses and we have spent only $52,000 for indemnities. At the prices which hides and meat of animals bring to-day, it has required an expenditure by the Federal Government of only $29.19 per head for indemnities, so you can slaughter a great many animals and keep within the million dollars for indemnities at $29.19 a head. The Cuarrman. My recollection is the States appropriated about $1,800,000? Dr. Mouter. Almost $2,300,000. The Cuarrman. I mean as it was presented to the committee last spring. I understand other appropriations have been made since, but at that time it was about $1,800,000? Dr. Moutsr. That is right. The Cuarrman. And I believe you estimated you would require about $700,000 for the operating expenses? Dr. Mouter. Fifty-fifty, we thought: $750.000 each way. The Cuarrman. And after consulting with you, the subcommittee decided to give you $500,000 for operating expenses and $1,000,000 for indemnities. We wanted to be certain that we were appropriat- ing enough money to pay the indemnities. We were off on the esti- mates of the operating expenses; however, we accepted your esti- mates. Dr. Mouter. As I say, at the present rate we will expend $100,000 more than the appropriation for operating expenses. The Cuairman. What would be your estimate next year for operating expenses ? Dr. Mouter. As stated there in the book of estimates, we would prefer to have that left open. The Cuairman. That is rather indefinite. Dr. Monter. Then to be more definite, we would rather have what the Senate put in last year. You remember after the House passed the bill it went to the Senate committee and the Senate’ committee made the recommendation of $800,000 for operating expenses and $700,000 for indemnities. That was passed by the Senate, but in conference the wishes of the House prevailed. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 193 The Cuarrman. You can readily see it would not do any good to appropriate money for operating expenses unless we had money to pay the indempities. The inspection would not be any good, ieee the cattle can not be slaughtered without paying the in- emnity. Dr. Moutzr. That is very true, but the best indication of what we need for the future will be what has been spent in the past. And as I stated in the first four months, July, August, September, and October, the indemnities which have been settled were only $52,000. The Cuarrman. The contention is that the free inspection should be limited to those who enter into this agreement. Dr. Mouter. That is true. The Cuarrman. That is on a 50-50 plan? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And outside of that a fee should be paid? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; in private practice, but the department per- mits no fees to be charged. The Cuareman. Is it not safe for the Federal Government to ac- cept the findings of the States? For instance, a State tests the cat- tle and it agrees to pay on the basis of 50-50? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; we are accepting the findings of the States every day; we are cooperating with 45 of the 48 States and accepting their State men’s work. Bs The Carman. Do you cooperate with them in the inspection and testing, too? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; we cooperate in every way. The Cuarrmay., Is it not safe to accept the statement and findings of the State veterinarians? , Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; and, as I say, we are doing that; we are ac- cepting the State men’s findings; we are accepting their appraise- ments and their tuberculin tests also. We are cooperating in the full- est sense of the word with the State officials and breeders in 45 out of the 48 States. . : The Cuairman. How many applications have you for inspection now ¢ Dr. Montzr. There are over 3,200 applications that can not be taken care of. Your State has 241. Eis Ae The Cuarrman. They are willing to enter into this agreement? Dr. Mouter. 3,200 herd owners have made applications already that can not be filled and they are coming in every day. Instead of completing this work for them, we will have to stop it. ; The Cuarrman. Is any of the work done by the States entirely? Dr. Montzr. No, this is all cooperative. The breeders enter into a contract between the State and ourselves that they will take care of the herd in the manner approved by the State veterinarian and -the Federal inspector. ; The CHarrman. Can you not cooperate with the States and the State make a certain number of inspections? Dr. Mouter. That is being done right along, every day. The State is divided into zones, some of which are under the supervision of State men and other zones are under a bureau man. Each accepts the work performed by the other, so there is no duplication of effort. The Cuarrman. How many inspections have been made altogether during the year? 164315—20-—13 194 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter, The number of herds under the supervision of the various States and the Federal Government is 21,447, which include 421,264 cattle. The number of herds that have already been ac- credited is 1,891, containing 36,205 cattle. In addition to these, there are 16,341 herds that have passed one successful test and are on the road to be accredited. They contain 232,847 cattle. There are now on the waiting list, to be tested, 3,257 herds, containing 80,184 cattle. This work is being done by about 181 of the bureau’s veterinarians in cooperation with almost the same number of State veterinarians and assistant State veterinarians, and they are scattered all over those 45 States in the various areas. We do not have a man from the bureau go into the same territory where the State has a man, but we try to cover the entire State with a certain number of our bureau men and a number of men that the State veterinarian supplies. There is no duplication of effort in any way. Mr. McLaucuuin of Michigan. And the State can do it? Dr. Mouter. The State can do it, and we accept all the work the State men do and they accept all the work the Federal men do. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. If the State fails to do it, though, you send a man in there? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Then the greater the neglect of the State to do its duty, the more responsibility rests on the Federal Government ? Dr. Moutzr. That is true, but they have already paid more and appropriated more money than the Federal Government has appro- riated. Oe, McLaveuuin of Michigan. Why shouldn’t they? Dr. Mouter. I am simply stating the facts. The Cuarrman. How many inspectors did you say you had? Dr. Monter. About 180 at the present time. The Cuarrman. How many in each State; how many in Iowa, for instance ? Dr. Montrr. About 7 in Iowa. We have cut the the force down by 20 in nine different States during the last 30 days. ‘The Cuarrman. How many are there in Illinois? Dr. Mouter. There are about 8 in Illinois. The Cuatrman. They average about four to a State? Mr. Tincuer. How many are there in Kansas? Dr. Monter. There were six, but we had to take two men off. Mr. Rainey. As I gather it, the gist of the proposition is that Congress has appropriated a million and a half dollars for this work and limited you in operating expenses and the number of employees. You are now asking for an increase of a million dollars, about $2,- 500,000, and you want that in a lump sum so that you will be able to have enough to go out and locate tuberculosis and you will not pay indemnities unless your inspectors locate the disease. Dr. Mouter. That is the point, but we can not locate the disease unless we have the inspectors, who may be termed detectives, to locate the trouble. And you may be paying just as much operating ex- penses to locate a healthy herd as to locate a diseased herd. If a herd is 100 per cent tuberculous, it costs the bureau no more to pay the operating expenses of the man to find that large herd of tuber- culous cattle than if there were no tuberculosis at all in the herd. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 195 The Cuarrman. If we omit that clause and make it all available for one purpose or the other, $1,480,440 will be adequate? That is the estimate. Dr. Montrr. That is the department’s estimate; yes, sir. These gentlemen have another proposition’ which Congressman Rainey just spoke of. There is nothing in the Book of Estimates about this $2,500,000; that sum is what is presented there in the resolution. I do not want to get this confused in the record. What we are asking for in the Book of Estimates is the elimination of the phrase which limits the appropriation for operating expenses to only $500,000, which is practically no more than what we had last year. The Cuairman. What was estimated by the bureau ? Dr. Mouter. This year? The Cuarrman. Yes. Dr. Mouter. Practically a million and a half dollars. The Cuairman. The bureau estimate was a million and a half? Was that cut by the Secretary ? Dr. Mouter. $1,480,440, the decrease being due to the transfer of $19,560 in salaries to the statutory roll. The Cuairman. The Secretary allowed the bureau’s estimate? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The only difference is where some clerks were employed during the year and are now to be transferred from the lump-sum to the statutory roll, so it reduces—— The Cuarrman. I was trying to ascertain the amount needed to meet all your requirements. Dr. Mouzer. That is the estimate, approximately one million and a half dollars. oe Mr. ‘tincuer. If it is changed in that way, it would enable you to have at least double or three times the number of veterinarians that you have now? Dr. Mou er. Not three times, but we could double the number. The Cuairman. You can only go as fast as the States go; you just keep pace with the States, do you not? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The UnarrmMan. How many of ycur inspectors are devoting their time to the inspecting of animals for export and shipment to other States ? Dr. Mouser. That comes under another provision here, under the provision for inspection and quarantine work. That is an entirely different proposition from this tuberculosis item which is for the purpose of the eradication of tuberculosis in herds in the United States. Our work on exports is done by the quarantine division and, as you know, we have inspected practically 11,000 dairy cattle to go to France in the first three months of this fiscal year. We had no money for that particular line of work, because we never exported dairy cattle before to Europe. The Cuarrman. I mean shipping from one State to another or in interstate commerce? Dr. Mouter. That comes under this clause here. The Cuatrman. That comes under this clause? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; but not the export. The Cuarrman. How much of that are you doing? Dr. Monier. We are doing a great deal. We have men-at all the public stockyards to enforce the regulations about the interstate 196 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 5 shipments of dairy and breeding cattle. We have about 42 stock- yards where that work is being done, and wherever the owners send in cattle to public stockyards we make the test free of charge. If we have to go around the country and make such a test, we charge the owner for the railway expenses and he has to put up the inspector at his home for the 36 hours required to make the tuber- culosis test. All that work is being done under this appropriation of $1,500,000. The Cuarrman. It would be impossible for the department to re- spond to all the requests and applications for inspection for ship- ment in interstate commerce, would it not? Dr. Mouter. That is what Congressman Tincher just said. We are only doing a certain portion of that; the rest of it is being left to the States to do and the. States are appointing their best local practitioners, approved by the State and O. K’d by the Government, and then the other States accept these tests. And the herd of this man the Congressman just spoke about, the herd of that man you referred to in your neighborhood, can go to any other State when accompanied by this approved veterinarian’s health certificate. The Cuarrman. Are you extending that service? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. To what extent? Dr. Mouter. We are covering every animal that is intended to go into another State for breeding or dairy purposes. The Cuarrman. The purpose of this act is to exterminate the disease of tuberculosis and to get rid of it just as quickly as we can. I do not think anybody would stop at a few million dollars of ex- penditure if it can be exterminated; but when you go out in the field to inspect herds for export or interstate shipment, that is a different thing. I have been engaged in shipping for a number of years and I have never thought of asking the Government to inspect my herd or a carload of cattle when shipping to another State. Dr. Monter. No, sir, we are not doing that. The Cuarmman. We ought to leave a little bit to the States and to the shipper. Dr. Mouter. We are not doing that except at the public stock- yards and for special shipments. For instance, if a breeder wishes to make a shipment to Canada, we go to his farm and he pays the traveling expenses of our man and puts him up overnight, because Canada requires a Federal certificate. And we do that for you in Iowa when you are going to ship to Minnesota, because Minnesota will not accept the Iowa State certificate. The Cuarrman. They do not accept the State certificate? Dr. Monter. No, sir; and we do not like it, because it is placing a great burden on us and is not getting anywhere, but it costs us both money and time. The Cuarrman. Now, to be frank, I think the State of Iowa and every other State should provide the inspection. If they have not the necessary law, they should pass it. If they have not proper veterinarians, they should get them. Dr. Mouter. I am just referring to the exceptions. The regular plan and rule is for our men to be at the public stockyards- to test for tuberculosis the cattle that are going to a breeder or dairyman in another Stata. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 197 The Cuarrman. I agree with you on that, but I do-not think it is possible to do it on every farm in every State. Dr. Mouter. We are not doing it except where we are obliged to do it by State laws, and we do not like to do it. The Cuatrman. The inspectors employed in Iowa are located in Sioux City? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; the inspector in charge is Dr. Thompson, located at Des Moines, and the other men are scattered over the State. When the State sends their man we do not send our man; we are all cooperating. Mr. McLaveuiin of Michigan. What I am speaking about is going out in a State and inspecting private herds, and you said you were not doing that unless you were compelled to do so by State law. Dr. Mouter. That is right. . Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What do you mean by that? Dr. Mouter. I mean, as Mr. Smith has stated, certain States will not accept cattle from certain other States without a Federal cer- tificate. Mr. McLauveuurn of Michigan. Why? Dr. Mouter. Because the certificates that were coming with cattle from these tabooed States were considered to be of no value. Mr. McLaueuurn of Michigan. The State inspectors have not been efficient in doing their duty; they have been dishonest ? Dr. Mouter. I am not in a position to say that, but that is the in- terpretation of the other States. Illinois is not now but it was in this position several years ago, and a number of the western States would not take any cattle from Illinois without a Federal certificate. Prof. Woods just tells me that Maryland will not accept cattle from New York unless a Federal inspector has made the tuberculin test. Mr. McLaueuuin of Michigan. Why? Dr. Mouter. I do not know. You will have to ask Prof. Woods about that. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Dr. Mohler. We will hear Prof. Woods. Mr. McLauveutrn of Michigan. The men in New York have not been doing their duty; they have not been honest, perhaps. STATEMENT OF DR. ALBERT F. WOODS, PRESIDENT, MARYLAND STATE COLLEGE. -Dr. Woops. That is the reason. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. If the State has the Federal Gov- ernment to make the test and does not need to spend the money, does not that lead to more dishonesty among the States and the more Federal money is necessary ? Dr. Wonps. Our experience is the State is very loath indeed to have this quarantine issued against the State veterinarians. We had it issued against us once before we got our service up to the standard, and we hastily got it up to the standard, and it was only operative for about 30 days. Now we have issued it against New York, operative day before yesterday, simply because the New York State ‘veterinarian service has been shipping plugged animals into Maryland. We have spent a lot of money to clean up the State of 198 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Maryland, and we can not afford to have those animals shipped down here and reinfect our pure-bred herds which are now clean, and consequently we have issued this quarantine. New York, probably within 60 days, will find out these veterinarians who have been doing this sort of thing and will eliminate them from their list, and it is one of the most valuable educational methods to clean up the veteri- narians as well as the herds that I know of. Mr. McLaveututn of Michigan. I do not see how you are going to educate them if, when you refuse to accept their dishonesty, the Government goes in and does the work for them. It seems to me it would be almost to the interest of the State to be dishonest, in order to have the Federal Government step in and do this work. Dr. Woops. The State can not afford to have that stigma upon the reputation of their service, and the fact is they do clean up as soon as a step of this kind is taken. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. Then, when the State realizes that, it gets to the front and does its own work, does it? Dr. Woops. Very largely; yes. Mr. Trncuer. I do not think you could appropriate enough money to make New York be honest. Dr. Woons. It would be a very serious thing if it would not be possible to transport animals from New York to our breeding herds. There must be some means of doing that. We will only accept Fed- eral veterinarian inspection up to the time New York gets satis- factory inspectors. : The Cuarrman. What would you say to charging a fee for making the Federal inspection ? Dr. Woops. I think that would be all right, and I would like to say here The Crarrman. In addition or outside of the regular salary men? Dr. Woops. Yes. é The Cuaarrman. Of course, we should provide for men at these large shipping points, but, if it is neessary to have a man for every locality, I take it that the Federal Government could not afford to hire men to place in every one of the 2,900 counties, and I take it a county is about as big a territory as any one man can cover. Dr. Woops. It is absolutely necessary for all these pure-bred breeders to import animals from other States. They have to keep exchanging bulls, selling and buying, to keep their blood lines up and, in doing that, even after you get cleaned up, from those States that are not clean they are constantly introducing the disease, and for that reason we feel that some greater effort than the State has the power to put forth ought to be made to clean up the breeding herds, as Mr. Smith has said. The Cuarrman. Inspection ought to be provided, there is no ques- tion about that. Dr. Woops. Our breeders would very much rather have a Federal man come in there and do the inspecting and cut out the indemnity entirely. The indemnity is hardly worth mentioning compared with the losses that a herd will sustain if they have to destroy 10 or 15 animals worth anywhere from $500 to $5,000 apiece. The Cuatrman. Do you think we could make headway in eradi- cating tuberculosis without the indemnity provision ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 199 _ Dr. Woops. I do not think we would have made any beginning on it, but the thing is going now pretty well and my own opinion is if you have to cut out anywhere, cut out the indemnity. I do not know about the experience of other men, but that is true in our ‘State. In Maryland, if you have to cut off anything, cut off the indemnity; we will stand the loss. But we do want to know, when we stand the expense, that we are through, and we do not want some plugging veterinarian,.for 50 cents, to come and plug a cow so she won’t react, and to send us an animal from some other State that we can not depend upon. For that reason we have issued this quarantine against New York and won’t accept any animal from New York State, unless she has a Government certificate, until they clean up. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. Two years ago we had quite a con- troversy here as to the amount of the appropriation, whether it ought to be $250,000 or $500,000. I think I have the amounts right. We were told by the Department of Agriculture that there was no need whatever of increasing the amount of the appropriation to $500,000 unless measures were taken to provide an indemnity; there was no need of doing it at all unless we provided an indemnity. Dr. Woops. I understand there is a constitutional limitation upon the destruction of property without paying for it, but I do not Imow why, if the owner agrees to stand the loss, that would not cover the constitutional prohibition. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. And following that very discus- sion in the House and Senate, over the question whether or not this amount should be increased from $250,000 to $500,000, the Senate added an amendment, a crudely drawn affair, to provide for in- demnities; and the amount was increased under the statement from the officials of the Department of Agriculture that there was no need of increasing the amount unless indemnities were provided. Dr. Woops. That was so 10 years ago, but I believe the breeders have realized the great importance of this move, and while they of course want the indemnity, they want the skilled supervision more than the indemnity. That is my opinion. The Cuarrman. This matter was under consideration for a num- ber of years, appropriations were withheld, a number of the mem- bers of the committee contended that there was no use appropriat- ing large sums of money unless we provided a definite plan that would prove effective. We came to the conclusion the only effective way of doing it was to provide indemnities so we adopted the same plan as in the foot-and-mouth disease. Dr. Woops. I do not want to be misunderstood. I believe the system you have is the most effective system that could have been devised to get this thing done. The breeders would not permit our men to come on their farms, and every herdsman of blooded cattle would say I am honestly in favor of this thing, of cleaning up the herd, but I can not afford to stand the entire loss. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Dr. Woods. Now the question is, how far do we need to go; my question is how would it do to pro- vide a part-fee policy? It seems impossible for us to provide inspec- tion and testing for every farm—to take care of every shipment. What have you to say as to a fee system? 200 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. FURTHER STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICUL- TURE. _ Dr. Monter. I would like to say that what Mr. McLaughlin stated is absolutely true, namely, that this committee of the House, in 1917, did propose an appropriation of $250,000 for the eradication of tuberculosis, but it had no indemnity feature in it at all. The Cyaan. I made the fight for it myself. Dr. Mouter. When asked about the indemnity, the Department of Agriculture’s attitude was, if indemnity was to be allowed, $250,000 would not be sufficient, but that $500,000 would be needed if indem- nities were to be included. The House bill provided for $250,000, but did not include any provision for indemnities. The Cuarrman, That was the first appropriation ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Then we decided on this plan and gave you $500,000, then we jumped to a million and a half. The question is, How much is required now ? Mr. Tincuer. You stated there were 3,200 applications for in- spection ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, 'sir. Mr. Tixcuer. Do you not know, as a matter of fact, that that is only a beginning, that those 3,200 applicants have reported to their neighbors that the fund is exhausted and they can not have it, and if it was possible for the Government to give the inspection, there would probably be an aggregate of 10,000 applications right now instead of 3,200? Dr. Mouter. I would not be surprised at all, Mr. Tincher. This thing is growing by leaps and bounds and it is getting far beyond us. I want to say here, with reference to the possibility of eradica- ting tuberculosis, that I would like to go on record as asserting that tuberculosis can be eradicated in five-eighths of the United States in the next 10 years. J believe that in the State of Mississippi, which Mr. Candler represents, the disease can be eradicated in 10 years, and in a great many of the other Southeastern States as well. In Georgia, which Mr. Lee represents, I would like to have a contract to eradicate tuberculosis in 10 years. But when you come to some of those badly infected Northern and Central States, which I do not care to mention, I would not want to take a contract even for 50 years. I believe we should take part of the country and exterminate the disease, and we could exterminate it in a relatively short period of time in certain sections. Then we could put a quarantine on or a barrier around the badly infected States and tell them. to enforce stringent inter and intra county restrictions on the movement of tuberculous cattle, if they wished our cooperation. But we have to be the leaders in this as well as in every other thing, like hog cholera and tick eradication. Where would the States be to-day if we had allowed these matters to take their own course? The Cuarrman. Why is it possible in one State and not in another? Dr. Monzer. Because in one State they have a 33 per cent infec- tion, where it has existed for years and years, and in other States, like Georgia and Mississippi, they have kept their native stock prac- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 201 tically free from tuberculosis and only get the disease by buying pure-bred bulls and females from these badly infected States. . The Cuarrman. The further north you go the longer the cattle are housed throughout the year, and as a result the disease is more prevalent among them. Dr. Moxwter. That is very true, and some of the Northern States are cleaner than other Northern States. The Cuarrman. What do you say as to a fee system? Dr. Mouter. I am aposel to a fee system. ; The Cusirman. In conjunction with what we now have? Dr. Morer. I am opposed to a fee system at all. I think it will be entirely unsatisfactory. . Mr. McLaucuiin of Michigan. There was a bill before the House Monday for the District of Columbia, providing for the inspection of all weighing apparatus of different kinds in all the stores and the measuring of containers and so on to see that they were exactly in compliance with the law; and it was urged that a fee be charged by the Federal inspector each time he made the inspection. The chairman of the committee, Mr. Mapes, read a long statement from the sealer of weights and measures of the District of Columbia, as I remember his title, against the fee system, claiming that it led to fraud and collusion between the inspector and the merchant whose machines were to be inspected, and that after a trial over a term of years the fee system had not been effective, and there was fraud and dissatisfaction, etc. What do you think of that? Dr. Mouser. That is very possible. You are running right into the personal element when you commence to allow an official to col- lect fees, and you are also running against the private practitioner who has to make his bread and butter in that same territory. The plan of the bureau is to keep abreast of this constantly growing list of requests, but to let these accredited herds go back to the prac- titioner in the locality where the herd is situated after they have been under Federal and State supervision for two years. And that is going to help solve the problem; we will turn over these accredited herds to the private practitioners with the idea that the local veter- inarians will keep them clean and allow us to go into new fields. _ Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. The fact that the inspection is optional with the owner of the herd, you might think he would not. consent to have his herd examined and tested and run the risk of having it condemned; but you think he might consent to it if he had some assurance on the side, in a dishonest way, that he would give him a clear certificate if he paid the money ? Dr. Mouter. That is a possibility. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. You think that would grow up under a fee system ? Dr. Mouter. I am afraid it would. The personal objection I see to it is the fact that we will go right into the territory where the practitioners are located and compete with them by testing these cattle for a small fee. With the method I am speaking about, the accredited herd would only stay under Federal and State super- vision for two years (but, of course, we would have the right to go in at any time and make a check test), and then it would be turned over to the practitioner in that community. 202 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. The practitioner is in private ‘practice and he makes a charge, I suppose? . Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. McLaveuttin of Michigan. Where State inspectors do the in- specting, do you know of any State where a fee is required? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; not with the tuberculin test, unless it is South Dakota. I know in inspecting for certain other infections— for scabies, glanders, etc.—a few States have a fee system, and there is.a great deal of criticism of that method. I think that South Dakota has a fee system for tuberculosis inspection at the Sioux City stockyards. That has caused a great deal of criticism. In fact, we sent Federal inspectors to do the testing at Sioux City for that very reason, because we heard that the man was going around looking through the rails of the stockyards and the slats of the stock cars and then making out health certificates without applying any real tests. There is one of the advantages of this aceredited herd proposition, because all of the States will take cattle from accredited herds without any further test and we will allow cattle from any accredited herd to go to any State in the Union, and Canada will also accept these cattle without additional tests. So there is a big advantage in making interstate shipments as a result of having a large number of accredited herds. Mr. McLavexutin of Michigan: This statement. that one State will not accept a certificate by a State official and as to another State it will accept the certificate of the State official does riot ee to me. It is evident that where a State is honest and its officials have been doing good work the certificate is accepted, but where they have failed to do their duty and where their. officials have not been on the square their certificate is not accepted. So that if the Government takes up that work and assumes to make the inspection in every State where the local inspectors have not done their duty, it is practically putting a premium on inefficiency and crooked work. If one State can inspect its herds in such a way that another State will accept its certificate all of them can be brought up to the same standard. Dr. Mouter. It might seem to work out that way, Mr. McLaugh- lin, but in reality it does not. Wisconsin has had seven States at various times refuse to take any charts from the practitioners-of Wis- consin but that number has been reduced greatly. I do not know now whether there are more than one or two. [llinois was in the same position. There were four or five of the western States that refused to take any certificates from Illinois men. I do not know any that will now refuse to take the certificates from Illinois. This case Prof. Woods just spoke of is a new case to me. I am not surprised, however, from what information I have had from Mary- land breeders. I do not think however that this deplorable condition is growing; I believe it is being greatly reduced. And I think what New York will do is to try to comply promptly with the require- ments of the Maryland State officials so that they can ship anywhere on their veterinarians certificates. Mr. Trncuer. What you are asking for in this appropriation is to make the $800,000 that was not used in paying indemnities last year, available for administrative purposes for the coming year and carry- ing practically the same appropriation we carried last year without AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 203 that restriction? Which will give you practically $1,500,000 more ae purposes for 1921 than you had in 1920; is that right? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir, practically so. Mr. Trncuer. That would be, then, $1,500,000 for administrative plnposes: And what was it you had in 1920 for administrative pur- poses ? Dr. Mouter. The whole thing is a million and a half dollars and we are asking now that we be given the privilege of using that money as we see fit. vs Mr. Trxcuer. That would give you four times as much in 1921 as you had in 1920? Dr. Monter. No, because we got $500,000 for operating expenses this year. Mr. Tincuerr. That is what I say, and then you have $800,000 of this year’s appropriation to be made available for next year? Dr. Moutrr. What we are trying to do is to correct this condition right now. We are not asking that this $800,000 be carried over to 1921; what we want is to have a joint resolution of the House and Senate making available the indemnity appropriation of the present fiscal year for this year’s operating expenses; otherwise, we are go- ing to have to transfer or dismiss 100 inspectors and we are going ioliave to disappoint most of these 3,200 breeders. The Cuarrman. Are we to understand, then, that $1,300,000 is to be used for testing and only $200,000 for indemnities? Dr. Mouter. In this item here? The Carman. Yes. Dr. Mouter. No, sir. The CHarrman. Now, this $800,000 would mean that you have $1,000,000-— _Dr. Moutzr. Yes; but we are going to expend, the way we have been going, only $200,000 of that million dollars for indemnities which means $800,000 will be turned back into the Treasury. I am not objecting to turning money back into the Treasury; I think it is a good thing; but we are given credit for having one million and a half for tuberculosis eradication, and the funds are tied up in such a beh that we are not going to be able to spend more than $700,000 of it. The Cuarrman. But in the note here it states that you are spend- ing $35,000 a month. Dr. Montrr. That is only for the month of July. The Cuairman. How much do you expect to spend for the testing ? Dr. Mourer. We will spend, at the rate it is going now, not $35,000 a month, which was true in July, but $600,000 for the year, since $198,000 have been already spent in the first four months. Mr. McLauveutin of Michigan. $50,000 a month? Dr. Mower. Yes; it is at tht rate, or $600,000 for the 12 months, which is $100,000 more than we can expend. The result will be that we will have to cut off 100 inspectors between now and the 1st of July unless something is done to remedy that condition. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Then you only want $100,000 more between now and the Ist of July? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; if we must keep within our present limits. 204 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. What you want is $100,000 more between now and the 1st of July? , ; Dr. Monier. What I want is to eliminate this proviso that limits the appropriation for operating expenses to only $500,000. _ The Cuarrman. But that is a question for us to determine, and I ae it Congress or the committee does not care to change that policy. Dr. Mouter. That is up to you, gentlemen; but you are asking what we want. The Cuairman. There is no reason why we should make $800,000 available if only $100,000 is required. : Dr. Mouter. It will require $100,000 to make up the deficit that is going to occur if we keep going at the present rate. We dismissed 20 men on the 1st day of November in order to cut down the ex- penses. The Cuarirman. Then $600,000 is required, and that is all that will be necessary ? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; that is not all that will be necessary. The Cuarrman. Just how much will be required ? Dr. Mower. What I would like to see done is to have this proviso eliminated this year by a joint resolution, so that we may use as much of the million-dollar indemnity appropriation as we may need for operating expenses. We won’t use any more than we have to use. The Cuarrman. Personally I want to give you every cent that is required, but it is not necessary to appropriate more than is required. If you will state the amount necessary for the testing and aminis- tration, so far as I am concerned I am willing to give it to you, but not one cent more. Dr. Mouter. To do that, I will go back to the figures which a year ago the other branch of Congress, the Senate, gave favorable consideration to, and these are $800,000 for operating expenses and $700,000 for indemnities. At the rate we are going this year, under present condi- tions, we won’t spend near that amount in indemnities. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. It will only be necessary to release $300,000 for the rest of the year? Dr. Mouter. That is right. The Cuairman. But you said you would only spend $600,000. Dr. Mouter. No, sir; I say we have spent $198,000 the first four months of this fiscal year. For July we spent only $35,000. That leaves $163,000 for the other three months. So that we were spending more than $54,000 a month for the last three months. Mr. Heruin. You state that one State will not accept the certificate of inspection from another State. Could you not help that work by cooperating with the State authorities in this way, by having inspectors appointed that you could give a certificate to of character and ability? For instance, let your department give to the State inspector a certificate reading like this: “This man’s ability and character is such that an inspection by him will be accepted by us and should be accepted by all parties concerned.” Dr. Monter. Mr. Heflin, we do that now. We have a number of people in New York State whose certificates we will accept for inter- state shipments. Mr. Heriin. Do they have any certificate they can show publicly? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 205. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; they do. Mr. Hertrn. From you? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; from us. We approve of the men that are approved by the State people. As I say, I do not know the case Prof. Woods referred to. It may be one of the men we have ap- proved; maybe not. But if we find this man is one we have approved or if we find a man who is not doing the work according to our methods, we will remove him, and we remove our own men some- times. We do not have an infallible system ourselves. Our men are not all perfect. I am far from perfect myself. But we remove our own men when we find they are not working in accordance with our methods. And if we find it is a State man, we drop him from the list. This case that Prof. Woods referred to is where a man is evi- dently falling down; whether he is on our list I do not know. We have between 6,000 and 7,000 men in the 48 States approved by the State officials, and. who are approved by us. The CHarrman., They inspect? Dr. Mouter. They inspect. The CuarrMan. Do they charge a fee? Dr. Monuer. They charge a fee for inspecting interstate ship- ments from one State to another. There arc almost 7,000 of those men cooperating with the bureau. The Cuairmay. Their certificates are accepted ? Dr. Moutrr. Minnesota does not take them from those men we approve in your State, and Maryland won’t take them from the. men we approve in New York now. That is the present condition. Dr. Woops. There are one or two or maybe three or four of those men that the Government has approved that we have not gotten spotted yet. But this procedure will stop their doing dishonest work (and we have the evidence here) and they will be removed just as soon as we find out who they are. The Cuarrman. They give the veterinarian more money to in- fluence him? Dr. Woops. Here is a veterinarian and here is a man who wants his herd inspected. The herd owner wants his cattle to pass, and the veterinarian thinks it is all nonsense anyway, and he says, “I can take care of that for you.” It is only a case of locating those dishonest assistants or locating those dishonest practitioners. Mr. Tixcuer. Take our State live-stock inspector: If he recom- mends a veterinarian in Kansas to you for a certificate, you give him a certificate? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; not in every case. Of course, in your State there are some graduates from nonrecognized colleges and when one of these men has been recommended we say to Mr. Mercer “ This man is not acceptable to us.” Mr. Tincurr. He would not recommend anybody but a graduate? Dr. Monter. They have to recommend somebody we will accept, and sometimes they recommend a man from a college not approved by the United States Civil Service Commission, the War Depart- ment, or the Department of Agriculture. We try to accommodate Kansas, because they have that big western territory, where they do not have very many veterinary practitioners. Some of these practi- tioners are from one of these nonrecognized schools, and we say to 206 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. those men we will allow you to take an examination and if you pass the examination, solely on the subject of tuberculosis, we will accept you for interstate testing. Mr. Trxcuer. I will ask you if it is not true that you know it to be Dr. Mercer’s practice that he does not appoint a man a State man unless he is able to get you to approve him as a Government man? Dr. Houter. Yes, sir; for regular State work. However, there are one or two fellows he thinks very kindly of, close personal friends of his, that we have not approved for interstate testing. STATEMENT OF MR. HOWARD R. SMITH, LIVE STOCK COMMIS- SIONER OF THE CHICAGO LIVE STOCK EXCHANGE—Continued. The Cuairman. Dr. Smith, have you anything else to say? Mr. Smiru. I just want to say, Mr. Chairman, that to my know]l- edge the States are making an effort to secure high-class men for this test work. In our State, in Illinois, we have recently changed the law. I think this will answer your quesiton, ‘Mr. McLaughlin. Heretofore, any man who passed the examination could become an assistant veterinarian. That examination does not include honesty; itis purely a technical examination. The result has been we have had a number of men in Illinois who have not been honest, as assistant State veterinarians, and the Illinois Legislature, last winter, changed the law and those men must now be appointed by the State veterin- arian and the State veterinarian has authority to cancel the license of any man who proves dishonest. That is going to give us a good honest lot of men in Illinois. ; Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Is there any provision for punish- ment ? Mr. Sort. He is simply dropped from the list and can do no more testing; that is all. He is taboo from any further testing. Mr. McLavueutin of Michigan. Is his license taken away from him ? Mr. Smirx. I do not know whether his license is taken away from him, but he is no longer an assistant State veterinarian. I think the States are all making an effort to meet this standard. In regard to this matter of Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You said that would answer the question I asked ? Mr. Smirn. You mentioned the fact the State men are dishonest and the very fact the Government would do that work for them encouraged dishonesty. I believe that was the question. That is true until the States get a better lot of men, and I just want to say Illinois is endeavoring to get a better lot of men. That is all. I think that is true of other States, also. In regard to this other mat- ter, I just want to call attention to a statement that was made and passed unanimously by the representatives of 12 national cattle- breeding associations in Chicago last week: In view of recent orders from the United States Bureau of Animal Industry discontinuing the services of a number of field inspectors engaged in tubercu- losis eradication work throughout the country, which action we find upon in- quiry was made necessary because of a lack of funds for the payment of operating expenses, we, the representatives of the 12 American cattle-breeding associations— AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 207 That takes in all of the important associations, the Shorthorn, Hereford, Guernsey, Jersey, Holstein, and so on— in convention assembled at Chicago, Ill, December 1, 1919, urge Congress to make some provision whereby the United States Bureau of Animal Industry may be empowered to draw on the indemnity fund for the payment of operat- ing expenses in order that the work of tuberculosis eradication may be con- tinued without interruption through the present fiscal year. . That is all we are asking for, is to draw on the indemnity fund for paying operating expenses. Now, one of our men has to leave early and I would like to have a statement from Mr. Frank Harding, one of the best-known short- horn breeders in the United States. He is also secretary of the American Shorthorn Breeders’ Association. The Cuairman. We will be pleased to hear Mr. Harding. STATEMENT OF MR. FRANK HARDING, SECRETARY OF THE AMERICAN SHORT-HORN BREEDERS’ ASSOCIATION. Mr. Harpvrne. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I will take a short time. As Mr. Smith has stated, I have a valuable herd of short- horns in both Wisconsin and Illinois, whose veterinarians have not. been very favorably spoken of here to-day, and I am secretary of the American Short-Horn Breeders’ Association. I would like to present what I believe is the general view of our breeders, of the American Short-Horn Breeders’ Association, that tuberculosis eradi- cation is very important and they approve of the work that has been done. And they have in mind this large waiting list of herds that are anxious to have free tests—accredited herds—and they are also advised without further funds this work will have to be curtailed, and they are very much interested in its going on and this arrange- ment made, if possible, to make this indemnity fund or such part of it as is needed available for inspection. They also believe that this work is of national interest. Figures have been submitted to you that show, through the work of the department and the States cooperating, the reduction that has been made in the number of tubercular cattle in this country. The breeders of the country have been educated by this work that has been done. They possibly had different views and recommenda- tions when this fund was provided, as it was, that more would be used for immunity and less for inspection; but they are so pleased with the work that they are anxious it should go on. It is naturally important and if it saves the cattle breeders of the country a large amount of money through lessened condemnations it is along the line of conservation and the lowering of the costs of living. There is another point I would like to mention, because I have been in close touch with the sentiment, at least, and that is our export trade. The American Short-Horn Breeders’ Association sent me to South American countries four years ago, because I told them I believed I could present points down there why they should buy our cattle as against Great Britain; that at least they would consider and give us a trial; and the result.has been that since my return, although two years’ interruption occurred on account of the. war, we have sent over 200 head of shorthorn cattle‘to Argentina,’ 208 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Uruguay, and Brazil. These cattle have all been Federal tested. To my knowledge there have only been two reactors out of that large number that I have personally supervised and sent through our association. Now, the results of shipments from foreign coun- tries are very different than the shipments from this country, and the sentiment is getting strong in South American countries that they can come to North America and get clean cattle. We are able, through the results we have made in shipping pure-bred cattle to these South American countries, to insure them against the retest which is required down there. They do not accept the test of any country in the world; they only accept'their own test after the arrival of the cattle and we are able, after the good results we have secured on the cattle shipped from the United States, to get a rate of 8 per cent. Three per cent of that rate, approximately, is to cover the risks of transportation and the other 5 per cent the risk of death from any cause whatever, including reactions to the tuberculosis test, on the retest that is demanded by law in those countries. By compari- son it is less than half and in some cases one-third of the interest rate charge from any other country. And that is the class of cattle that are wanted in South American countries. I just thought that was a point worthy of bringing up, that if we want to build up our North American trade in those South Ameri- ean countries, which is possibly of advantage to all of our citizens in the way of export trade, the sooner we can get a practically free country, as far as bovine tuberculosis is concerned, the more of that trade we will secure. The Cuairman. When you speak about an accredited herd, that applies to those who enter into an agreement to slaughter or segregate ? - ae Harpine. Yes, sir; or segregation. This meeting has been referred to in Chicago, on the Ist day of December, where repre- sentatives of these associations were present, and I have a resolution to present from these 12 registry associations. These registry asso- ciations were represented in this meeting by the thtee members of the board of directors of each association and the secretary of the association. The resolution reads: As representatives of the 12 American cattle breeding associations, in con- vention assembled, Chicago, Ill., December 1, 1919, we indorse the action of the last Congress in providing on appropriation of $1,500,000 for the eradication of tuberculosis—a disease that is causing a loss of millions of dollars annually for meat condemned and for cattle that die of tuberculosis on our farms. We heartily approve and commend the plan adopted by the officials of the United States Bureau of Animal Industry cooperating with the State live, stock sanitary officials in combatting this disease with the resulting that this menace which has heretofore been increasing in its destructiveness is now actually declining. We urge that the present Congress provide liberally for the continuance of this important work, that a larger force of field inspectors may he appointed to take care of the increasing number of requests from breeders for the annual tuberculin testing of their entire herds, in the performance of which work the present force is inadequate. . We recommend and urge Congress to make an appropriation of $2,500,000 annually, the entire fund to be available for the payment of either operating expenses or indemnities, as necessities may require, under the terms of the jaw now in force, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 269 The eradication of tuberculosis will not only conserve for human consump- tion great quantities of beef and pork annually condemned as inedible, but will also encourage the production of both meat and dairy products, That is signed by the representatives. The Cuarrman. On what is the estimate of two and a half million which you speak of based—how did you arrive at that figure? Mr. Harpvine. That the work is increasing for the elimination of tuberculosis, and, to continue it all over the country, it would appear it is getting larger in volume and there is more work to be done. Mr. Jonrs. That is for the organization expenses and indem- nities ? Mr. Harpine. Yes, sir. Mr. Jongs. I thought you said your indemnity was down to about a minimum now. Is it getting less? ‘ Mr. Harpine. I believe there is a possibility that some day the indemnities may increase. As Mr. Smith has stated to you, we have ‘had the highest prices these last two or three years, this last year particularly, in the history of our particular business for beef cattle, and the people who are having their cattle condemned and are mar- keting them are not receiving any indemnity, from the fact that it is fully covered by the salvage value. The time may come when they won’t receive as great an amount for salvage and more will be needed for indemnity. That is a conjecture and not a certainty, but the work is enlarging and the desire for accredited herds is increas- ing all the time. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Harding. Mr. Trncuer. What is your post-office address, Mr. Harding? Mr. Harpine. 13 Drexell Park Avenue, Chicago, Il. Mr. Surrn. I would like to have a word from Mr. A. B. Cook, president of the American Hereford Breeders’ Association. Mr. Cook is from Montana. The Cuatrman. We are glad to hear Mr. Cook. STATEMENT OF MR. A. B. COOK, PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN HEREFORD BREEDERS’ ASSOCIATION. Mr. Coox. Mr. Chairman, I do not think it is necessary to take up the time of this committee. I think that what has been done in the last two years proves that this is a very necessary work, and I know that the Hereford breeders feel that the department has accom- plished wonderful results, and we do not think they should be ham- pered for the want of enough money to carry it on satisfactorily. The CuHarrman. Thank you, sir. Mr. Smiru. Mr. Shoemaker would also like to say a word. He represents the American Guernsey Association on the executive committee. The Cuarrman. We will be pleased to hear you, Mr. Shoemaker. STATEMENT OF MR. S. M. SHOEMAKER, OF MARYLAND, REPRE- SENTING THE AMERICAN GUERNSEY ASSOCIATION. Mr. Suormaxer. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I do not know that I can add anything to what has already been said. I can fully indorse everything Mr. Smith has said, and I feel that your idea of cutting 164315—20—_14 210 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. off the inspections would meet with the violent opposition of about 99 per cent of the breeders with whom I have come in contact. They would, unfortunately, rather give up the compensation. The intelligence with which this work has been carried on by the department has secured the confidence of the breeders; and it is a real tribute to the work of that department, the way the people speak of it, “Why, a bureau man made the test; there is not any question about it.” Now, the economic value of this thing, I think, is enormous. Its educational value has been tremendous in Maryland. We needed for the Federal Government to come and tell our people that our State officials were right. We have a prominent man in the State, and I spent several years as a member of our State board of agri- culture endeavoring to convince him that the tuberculosis test was a necessity and it was breeding high-class cattle. He eventually real- ized the Federal Government would not get behind this thing unless there was something to it, and he had his herd tested and he lost 56 out of 59, I think, and now he is the most ardent advocate of the tuberculosis test to-day that I know of; certainly one of them. As I say, its educational value is tremendous. Now, it may be entirely reasonable to cut off the compensation in the near future; it may be wise to charge a fee for these tests after a while; but I do not believe it would be good policy to do either one at the present time. You are educating the public in a way that I do not suppose it could be done in years and years. You are getting results. The people are cleaning up their herds and they are under pledge to keep them clean. I believe it is accomplishing a valuable work, good financially to the country, and I believe you should give the department all the funds they need for these inspectors. I do not know that I can answer any questions, but I will be very glad to give you any information I have. The Cuarrman. You and I agree as to the inspection; we ought to provide for the inspection and testing. But the question is, How much is required and how can it best be accomplished ? ; Mr. SuHormaxer. I do not believe you can improve on the work the way it is being handled at this time. : The Cuarirman. I believe it would be impracticable at this time to provide inspectors in 3,000 counties, and I believe a county is prob- ably as large a territory as any one person could properly handle. It would take a tremendous amount of money to take care of that work. I do not think it would be possible for us to go to the extent of testing in every county. Possibly it maybe done in connection with a fee system. Mr. Snormaxer, I think eventually you can require a fee without retarding the work, but I do not believe it would be a wise thing to require that just now—just as it was necessary to provide the in- demnity to get the work started. The Cuarrman. The subject has not been discussed in the com- mittee; it was merely my suggestion in order to get the ideas of the breeders and the department. ; . Mr. SuHormaker. Its educational effect—instead of its working as the gentleman suggested, that the States lay down because the Fed- eral Government will do it, as a matter of fact it is educating the AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 211 veterinarians in the States to the fact that they can not do that sort S work. Incidentally, of course, States are bringing pressure on them. The Cuairman. Of course we ought to leave a little for the States to do. This country is pretty big, and we ought to divide it up be- tween the States and not undertake to take charge of all the things to be done throughout the country; and it occurred to me the State should meet us half way. Dr. Mouter. Maryland is doing that, Mr. Chairman, very nicely. The Cuarman. I take it most of the States are. Mr. SuHormaxer. Yes, most of the States are; they are all co- operating in this kind of work. ’ Mr. Smiru. Before I call on Mr. Munn, who is president of the American Jersey Cattle Club, I wish to say I agree with Mr. Shoe- maker that the time has not yet arrived for discontinuing indem- nities. It would drive out of business our young breeders, i think you will agree with me, that the young man who hasn’t a lot of money, if he should put his herd under the supervision of the State and Federal Government and say to those people “Test my cattle and slaughter the reactors,” it would simply drive him out of busi- ness to the detriment of the whole country, and we are not ready for that yet. These well-to-do men, the experienced men, can stand that loss, but: the young breeder, the man with limited means, we have to protect. We simply want to take off enough of that rough edge so that the young man can stand part of the loss without driv- ing him out of business, and that is what we are doing. They are anxjous to clean up, but they want the support of the Federal Gov- ernment and State to that extent. Mr. Hurcurnson. I am confused in my figures Dr. Mohler, and I am asking for information. If I understand it, the appraise- ment of the thoroughbred is $150, and of the grade, $75? Mr. Suiru. No. The Cuarrman. That is the maximum? Mr. Hutcuinson. That is the maximum. Mr. Smiru. The maximum paid by the Federal Government is $50 for the pure bred. That is true. The Federal Government does not pay to exceed $50 on a pure bred and $25 on a grade. The Cuarrman. That is not the total loss? Mr. Smit. That is not the total loss. Mr. Hurcurinson. The meat is worth something. ? Mr. Suir. The meat is worth something. Mr. Hurcuinson. $75 is pretty high salvage on a grade. Mr. Smrrn. No, the animal is appraised at its dairy value, as a rule, or breeding value. If the salvage is more, he gets nothing; but the salvage is never more. Dr. Monter. The salvage per head has been $41.20, that is the average. Mr. Hurcuinson. I understood Dr. Mohler to say the average was $29 and some cents, the salvage paid by the Government. _Dr. Montrr. That was not the salvage, that was the indemnity, $29.19. Mr. Hurcurnson. The hide will bring more than that. The packers are getting $19 for the hide. 212 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. The hide is included in the $41.20 for the salvage. This $29.19 is what the United States Treasury paid out per animal to the cattle owner. This $29.19 indemnity is over and above the salvage of $41.20 which the butcher gave the owner of the tuber- culous animal as an average. Mr. Hurcutnson. I can not make my figures come together. Mr. Smrru. I will now ask Mr. Munn to make a brief statement. Mr. Munn is president of the American Jersey Cattle Club and also president of the National Dairy Council from St. Paul, Minn. woe Cuairman. Thank you, Mr. Shoemaker. We will hear Mr. unn. STATEMENT OF MR. M. D. MUNN, OF ST. PAUL, MINN., PRESI- DENT OF THE AMERICAN JERSEY CATTLE CLUB. Mr. Munn. With reference to indemnities first, the States vary, as I understand it, in the method of payment. Minnesota, I think, is the most progressive State we have in connection with the accredited herd. I know so far as the breeders of our association are concerned we have more animals in accredited herds in Minnesota than in any State of.the Union, and I think we have more animals of all breeds than any State of the Union in accredited herds. We have been kind of progressive out there in that respect. We do not pay anybody out there in accordance with what I understand from Dr. Mohler and Mr. Smith some States are paying. The law is there you can not exceed a certain amount, and $150 is the limit for a pure-bred in Minnesota. The salvage does not go to the owner. If there is any salvage it is deducted from the allowance made by the State and the State gets the salvage. To come back to the question of the appropriation, I do not know the relation which exists between the indemnity and the overhead and inspection, and I shall not say anything about that other than to suggest it seems to me the relation should be one which would carry on the work in the most satisfactory way; that is, you must have a salvage which will induce those who are not now having tests made of their herds to test. And, of course, to get this test, you must have a sufficient fund to carry on the inspection work. And I agree with your chairman that there should be cooperation between the State and the Federal de- partment in that respect. I do not think it is entirely wise to take it away from the State, because you will get more inaction in that way than in any other. At the same time, you have got to have the Federal Government lead in this work, and it seems to me it is largely a matter of food economics. And if you view it from that stand- point, our food comes from two sources; it comes from the land di- rectly or indirectly and from the water, and most of it comes from the land; about 90 per cent from the land. And of the total expendi- ture for food, over 50 per cent comes from animals. Those are figures which are available and about which there can be no controversy. That means in protecting these herds, by the eradication of disease, you are conserving our sources of food supplies which, it seems to me, is the real question. Because if there is any lesson that has come home to us out of this war above any other, it is that the source of the food supply is the most vital thing we have to consider in our na- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 213 tional welfare. And by eradicating a disease like tuberculosis and getting healthy herds, we are conserving our sources of food supply and the money expended by the Government in that respect is very well expended. ° Whether it should be two and a half million, three million, or five million, I am not prepared to say. I am prepared to say this, how- ever, that in my judgment you could not go too high so long as you can economically carry on the work. If $2,500,000 will do that, $2,500,000 it should be; if $5,000,000 will do that, $5,000,000 it should be. In other words, if we are going to clean up, let us clean up as rapidly as we can economically rather than to dribble along year after year. And if I had my say about it, it seems to me in fixing the amount, if I were a Member of Congress and on this committee, I would want to know how rapidly this work can be done and then I would fix the appropriation accordingly. The Cuairman. We are up against this situation: The heavy de- mands on the Treasury under the present condition, and the esti- mates of the department are less than $1,500,000. The question is are we warranted in increasing that appropriation? What the com- mittee would like to know is whether additional appropriations are absolutely required in excess of $1,500,000. Judging from the action taken in the past, I feel sure the committee wants to meet the re- quirements in every respect. Mr. Munn. Those figures, of course, would have to come from the department. It seems to me $2,500,000 could be very well expended. The. Cuarrman. But the department estimates less than a‘ million and a half, or $1,480,000. © Mr. Munn. That is a matter of opinion. I look upon these ex- penditures a little differently, perhaps, than some. We speak in billions these days. Now, when we are conserving food, it seems to me that we should give consideration to the results rather than to dollars. Dr. Monter. The Department of Agriculture does not say that is enough to do this work. The Cuarrman. That is the estimate. Dr. Mouter. It is the estimate. In view of all the various activi- ties of the department, and in view of the state of the National Treasury and other things, the Secretary of Agriculture did not feel that he should ask for any more than that million and a half. He is, of course, not opposed to any action which this committee might take for increasing any of the estimates if it so desires. | The CuarrmMan. That is the figure arrived at, taking all the con- ditions into consideration ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; that is it. I did not want to have it under- stood that the department would object to an increase. Mr. Jonzs. You understand the trouble the committee have in ap- propriating more than a department has asked for, do you not? Dr. Mouzer. Mr. Lever wrote a letter to the Secretary last year on this $500,000 basis, and asked the Secretary if he thought $500,- 000 was enough, and the Secretary replied that he could spend ef-. fectively twice that much money. Mr. Jonss. I understand that, but I say you understand the trouble the committee would have in convincing Congress to appropriate more than was asked for. 214 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BIL: <_. Dr. Mouter. They had no difficulty last year. They appropriated three times more than the Secretary asked for in that budget last year. The Secretary only asked for $500,000 in the budget last year and your committee appropriated a million and a half. So that it is a similar condition this year to that which obtained last year. Mr. Tincuer. Do you not suppose the Secretary took into con- sideration the fact, in making his estimates, that the receipts of the Government this year would probably be $3,000,000,000 short ? Dr. Mouter. That is one of the points I referred to, but I do not want it to be understood by the members of the committee that the Secretary has fixed that as enough money for tuberculosis eradica- tion and would oppose an increase, if in your wisdom you considered it essential to the welfare of the live-stock industry. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. The chairman of the Committee on Appropriations and the chairman of the Committee on Ways and Means say we are facing an inevitable deficit of at least three billion and a half. A large part of that money comes from the income tax. The President has recommended the reduction of the income tax. He knows why, I suppose, but he has not told anybody. The Secretary of the Treasury has said there would be no deficit. He has said that more than once, that there would be no deficit, although these two chairmen have said there would be a deficit of about three billion and a half dollars. The Secretary of the Treasury has said, also, there would be no bond issue. He has said that several times that there would be no bond issue. When it was pointed out to him that some bond issue’ would be inevitable, “Oh,” he said, “there will be a bond issue that the bankers will take.” He said, “ What I mean is, there will be no bond issue like the Liberty loan bond.” The CuHareman. You should not say “bankers will take,” but “bankers will have to take.” That is the way to put it. Mr. McLaventuin of Michigan. So that this committee while it handles very small amounts of money, relatively, yet it is looked to to be as economical as it can be. The Cuarrman. Personally, I believe this is.the most important work the department has ever undertaken. Dr. Mouter. And the most popular The Cuarrman. Personally, I would do everything I could to meet the situation. Thank you, Mr. Munn. We will now hear Mr. Brown. FURTHER STATEMENT OF MR. EVERETT C. BROWN, PRESIDENT OF THE CHICAGO LIVE STOCK EXCHANGE AND OF THE NA- TIONAL EXCHANGE. Mr. Brown. If you will allow me to say a word, I think the live- stock commission men come in contact with the producers, and the farmers want this more than any other agency in any line of work. This work of the department is the most popular work that is bein done by any branch of the Government, to my certain knowledge. am speaking for the farmer direct. I think the department estimated four years ago that the loss by tuberculosis as $25,000,000 annually. Because of the appreciation in values of live stock, which has occurred during the war, I think we can estimate now, conservatively, that the loss by tuberculosis in food AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. ; 215 animals will reach fully $50,000,000. Now, if you can make an ap- ean of two and a half million dollars that may save even 10,000,000 to the producers of this country, it seems to me it is a corking good investment. I want particularly to bring out one point that has developed in the controversy here this morning, and that is the Federal inspec- tion on the point of confidence. I can speak for the 27 markets that I represent, and they are the largest live-stock markets in the country, that the Federal inspector has the entire confidence of the producer and the State inspector has not. That is true in all mar- kets. I think any hampering or reduction of the inspectors under the supervision and employ of the Division of Meat Inspection, Bu- reau of Animal Industry, would be a great blow at the live-stock industry throughout the United States. I think this inspection is of much more importance than the indemnification. We feel, at the large markets particularly, great markets like St. Paul, Sioux City, Omaha, St. Joseph, Denver, and Chicago, where the man comes in to buy a carload of breeding heifers or cows, when they go out he wants the Federal inspector to inspect them, and it is under protest in most of those markets that he accepts State inspection. He does not want it. He wants to have Federal inspection. The Federal inspection has obtained the confidence of the country as against State inspection (more in the foot-and-mouth trouble), and, in a way, as compared with State inspection, that never can be eradicated in the mind of the producer, the farmers of the country. They felt that the Federal inspection was absolutely on the level; they felt that the State inspection was not. And I want to say, as representing these markets that I mentioned, and all the markets in this country, there is no bureau of the Government that has more the confidence of the people, every producer in this country, than the Bureau of Animal Industry has; and I hope there will be no restric- tion in any way on this inspection. Mr. Canpier. Then, you think it is more important to look after the extension of the inspection than to take care of the indemnity ? Mr. Brown. I certainly do. Mr. Canpier. And if there is to be any enlargement of either one or the other, it should be along the line of inspection and not along the line of indemnity? Mr. Brown. I do, sir. Mr. Canpter. That the producers—the breeders—would prefer to stand the loss, to some extent at least, as far as indemnity is con- cerned rather than to have the inspection curtailed in any regard? Mr. Brown. I absolutely think so. And in saying that, I think I represent every live-stock market in the country. And I think it is borne out in the figures shown of the work in the last year, that the indemnification has not been drawn on the way the inspection has. The pure-bred breeders, the grade men, the fellow buying a load of cattle in a big market—he wants the inspection; he wants to be absolutely sure. Mr. Canpier. Then you would favor the recommendation urged by Dr. Mohler that the limitation be taken off, so that the depart- ment may be allowed to use its discretion largely in pursuing the further extension of the inspection work and only utilize what is 216 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. nae. absolutely necessary for the indemnity work, in order to keep up the encouragement as to the development of grade herds and the development of grade cattle? Mr. Brown. I certainly would. I think the Bureau of Animal In- dustry has the confidence of the people, and there has been no reason why that confidence has been shaken; in fact, every year that confi- dence grows. Every farmer who knows anything about this work has the utmost confidence in the Federal inspection. Mr. Trncuer. Does the average purchaser, say, of a carload of heifers like you speak of, keep the cattle there at the market for the 36 hours required for inspection ? Mr. Brown. They have to under the Federal rules, Congressman; that is a requirement. Mr. Trncuer. When those cattle are inspected, who takes the loss? Mr. Brown. He takes the loss; the animal is thrown back—has to be thrown back and killed. Mr. Tincuer. The purchaser takes the loss, does he? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. No inspection of heifers shipped on to the open mar- ket is required ? Mr. Brown. No. Where they are shipped on to the open market, chat is not required; but where they go back into the country for breeding purposes, they are obliged to inspect; and they are followed back on to the farm, and when they come back on to the market. For instance, they are also inspected for commercial purposes, for feeding purposes, to see there is no shutting down out on the farm in the country. The department watches that, and the State in- spectors also watch that. Mr. Trncuer. When he buys cattle he has the Government man in- spect them? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincyer. And the point you make is he wants an authorized Federal inspector’s certificate ? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir. Mr. Trycuer. That encourages him, if the market has that in- spector, to pay the price for the heifers? Mr. Brown. Yes, sir; and when that animal goes back into the country, the farmer is so much more encouraged or pleased with that Federal inspection, than he is with the State inspection, that that herd is worth more money. Mr. Trncuer. It would not take many inspectors to accommodate all the markets? Mr. Brown. No; it does not. The fact is that they are right there; they do not have to travel around the country; they are right there when that load or two, or three loads of stuff goes out, perhaps 10 or 15 or 20 a day, and they are right there where they inspect that stuff, and they do it right on the spot. Mr. Trncuer. And there are not enough stock markets like you mention so that it would take any great number of inspectors? Mr. Brown. No. That inspection should not be hampered in any way, but. should be increased. As Dr. Mohler could tell you, I think’ all of the markets now are asking for more inspectors, and that is the inspection that really counts more-than anything else, because it is the dissemination of these animals all over this country. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 217 Mr. Trncuer. It is the inspection that costs less? Mr. Brown. Yes. Mr. Tincuer. And it is this traveling around over the country that represents the largest cost? Mr. Brown. Absolutely. Mr. Canpier. You believe it would be better to take away the limitation and leave it to the discretion of the department. itself to utilize the funds where they will do the greatest good to this in- dustry ? Mr. Brown. Absolutely. a Monn. Did you say the loss was stood by the man buying them ? Mr. Brown. On the reactors. Mr. Munn. I do not want to throw discord in here. I agree with what has been said about the inspection where the animals go back to the shipping point, to the farm, but I can not say to do away with the indemnity and just have the inspection alone, because you could not reach the source of trouble that way. These animals come to the terminals and some go back again. They all come from the farms to the cities, and there is where the diseases start, and if you are going to eradicate it, you have to go back there to eradicate it. Of course, the city detects it by inspection at the yard and that is highly important to see that those animals do not get back on the farms. But if you are going to eradicate this disease, you have to inspect on the farm to do it, and you can not get condemnation on the farm if you have inspection alone, because the farmer won’t allow his cattle to be inspected. The Cuarrman. I think we all agree we should provide indemnity. Mr. Brown. I do not want to be understood as stating the inspec- tion should stop altogether, but I want particularly to impress that this work at the terminal market, where the stock is going back to the country, is one of the most important. Mr. Munn. I think that is one of the most important where the stock is flowing back to the farm. The Cuarrman. The question is on going onto the farms, visiting every farm, and making the inspection and test. Mr. Trncuer. It is conceded that the Government can not appro- priate enough money to have complete inspection of all the cattle on all the farms. What would you think of this as a fixed definite policy: That we do furnish sufficient inspectors for the markets and Jet the States understand that the Federal Government is furnishing sufficient inspection for the markets and the owners of the cattle understand the Federal Government is furnishing sufficient inspec- tion for the markets, and then, in order to insure good markets for their own cattle, the State will have to exercise care, and the owner of the cattle will have to exercise certain care or he will be up against the proposition that the Federal inspection in the market will actually reduce his price in view of the fact that the Federal Government can not defray the total expense. What would you think of that as a policy? Mr. Brown. That is the policy strongly favor and, as far as the appropriation will stand, I also hope they will cover the farms as much as they can. But I think we all agree that the inspection at 218= AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. the great public markets where the stock is disseminated through the farming districts is of paramount importance. Of course, tne pure-bred breeders may differ with me on that. (Thereupon, at 12.40 p. m., the committee took a recess until 2 o'clock p. m.) The committee reconvened, pursuant to the taking of the recess, at 2 o’clock p. m. - FURTHER STATEMENT OF MR. A. B. COOK, PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN HEREFORD BREEDERS’ ASSOCIATION. The Cuarrman. Please give your full name and address to the stenographer. Mr. Coox. A. B. Cook, president of the American Hereford Breed- ers’ Asociation, Helena, Mont. I have been thinking of the appropriation that the department has asked for, which, as I understand it, is something like a million and a half of dollars. Am I right in that, Mr. Chairman? The Cuairman. Practically, in round numbers. Mr. Coox. The States within the last year have appropriated something over $2,200,000. The breeders met during the Inter- national Live Stock Show, and it was the unanimous opinion of all the breeders present that it would take more money than they had been getting for the department. As I understand it, there are a little over 3,000 herds that have requested to be tested, and you can not do it for want of money. I know that the word has been passed -out throughout the country that it no use making application, be- cause they have not the money to do it with. I think it is fair to say that if it was known that there was money there would be fully ‘five times that amount, and maybe ten times. It is hard to estimate what it should be. I do not think that you should curtail Dr. Mohler and his department and shut.him off on money to carry on this work. I do not think it is fair to the breeders. He certainly can not give ‘us results unless he has the money to do it with, and I think it is up to this committee to try and get him that money; and I am positive from what he said this morning as to what his requirements would “be, and the way it is increasing, that $1,500,000 will not be sufficient. The stockmen and the farmers pay a good part of the money that js raised in this country, and I think that we are entitled to that _much recognition. We are paying a good part of this money and ‘I think we are entitled to a little recognition that way. Thank you. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You speak of the amount of money that the States have appropriated. Do you know how that is .divided—how many States there are and the amounts that they have _ppropriated ? Mr. Coox. I think every State in the Union, with the exception of Colorado and Delaware, has appropriated. I have not the figures handy. I think that is right, Prof. Smith? We were discussing it this noon. Mr. Smrru. I wrote to all the States. Mr. Coox. You wrote to all the States and got the total amounts, ‘end at that time what it would be. Two years ago in our discus- .sions here it was asked if the States would do their parts, and almost AGRICULTURE ‘APPROPRIATION BILL. “> O19 every inember thought that his State would be willing to help out and go 50-50 on the proposition. Dr. Moutrr. All of the States, with the exception of Arizona, Ar- kansas, Colorado, and Louisiana, have made appropriations, totaling $2,211,850. I have a list here of the different States. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Is that for this particular work? Dr. Montrr. That is solely for tuberculosis eradication, in co- operation with the Federal Government. If you want to know about any particular State, I shall be pleased to tell you. Your State, Mr. McLaughlin, has appropriated $100,000 per annum for this work. Mr. McLavenuin of Nebraska. What has Nebraska appropriated ? Dr. Monzer. $37,500 per annum. Mr. McKiniey. How much is Illinois’s appropriation ?. Dr. Monter. Illinois, $50,000 per annum. Mr. Jonrs. Give us Pennsylvania. We will get them all in. Dr. Mouter. Pennsylvania, $100,000 per annum. Mr. McLavenuw of Michigan. Have you a list that you can put in the record? Put in the whole thing. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; but I am going to speak on this later, and I thought I would put it in then. The Cuarrman. Will you go on now, Doctor? é ne Mouter. Would you not prefer to take care of these men rst ? ii The Cuarrman. I understand that they have finished. Is there anybody else, Mr. Smith ? Mr. Surrsx. I do not think so. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Cook. Now, Mr. Kiernan. STATEMENT OF MR. J. A. KIERNAN, CHIEF OF THE TUBERCULOSIS ERADICATION DIVISION, BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DE- PARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Mr. Kiernan. Gentleman, the tuberculin test was discovered in 1892. It has been in operation in this country from that time. Veterinarians in every State have been educated on the technique of the tuberculin test and have been applying it in every State. Notwithstanding the efforts of the individual veterinarians and the individual live stock owners of the United States, however, tuberculosis has spread to practically every State in the United States. In the older dairy States it is more prevalent than it is in the newer States and in the range States; but, nevertheless, it is spreading from State to State, and the meat-inspection regulations show that for a period of 10 years it was spreading among swine at the rate of 10 per cent a year, so that for 1918, out of every 40,000,000 swine slaughtered at the establishments where meat inspection was maintained practically 4,000,000 of those hogs were affected with tuberculosis. It became so alarming that the live stock owners of America said: “Something must be done to control and eradicate tuberculosis, if it can be eradicated, because if it goes on at the rate at which it has been progressing for the last 10 years, the time will come when all of our swine and also all of our beef herds in the United States will become affected with that thing.” 220 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The live stock owners came here to Congress two years ago, and Congress provided a small appropriation to carry on this work. There was no work done, from a national standpoint, up until two years ago. The only work that was done by the Federal Government up to that time was the eradication of tuberculosis from cattle in the District of Columbia. That work has been carried on for several years, and it has proven beyond a peradventure that tuberculosis can be eradicated from live stock. Here in the District they had, at the inception of the work, practically 19 per cent of the cattle infected, and each year the disease has been diminishing, and last year the official tests showed that very much less than 1 per cent of the total number of cattle in the District were affected with the disease; and the department feels confident that the disease will be totally eradi- cated from the District. : Now, with this appropriation that you made the Bureau of Animal Industry in its work started from the ground floor without any State cooperating, and in two years the work has been built up so that to-day there are 45 States engaged in this work, cooperating with the Department of Agriculture, and it has been mentioned here to-day, those States have appropriated an aggregate of $2,200,000 for tuber- culosis work this year. There were 33 States last winter where the legislatures met and considered tuberculosis work, and there were only two of. those States that did not make appropriations. They were the States of Colorado and Delaware. But since then in the State of Delaware they have obtained a fund of $15,000 or $20,000 from private sources to carry on the work, so that they could carry on the cooperation with the bureau. The plan of this work as set forth to-day is the eradication of tuberculosis from pure-bred cattle, the plan known as the accredited herd plan. That plan is in operation in 45 States, and that it has been a success is borne out by the testimony of the gentlemen who ap- peared here to-day representing every pure-bred cattle association in the United States. ; ; In addition to the pure-bred herds, of course, we have got to look after the grade herds—the farmers’ herds. ae ; Last year when the breeders and the State live-stock sanitary of- ficials and Dr. Mohler and the other bureau men got together in Chicago, we came to the same conclusions. And I want to emphasize, gentlemen, that this is our plan of cooperation, not a coercive meas- ure, but we are working together in this eradication work, the farmer, the State official, the pure-bred breeder, and the Bureau of Animal Industry are going as one man in this campaign as has been shown here to-day ; there is no contention between them; there is no division of plan. The plan is “ Now we have got together and we are going to stick together until we control and eradicate this disease ”—gentlemen, we have made a canvass on this proposition. There are upward of 3,000,000 square miles in the territory of the United States, and of that vast area, two-thirds is comparatively free from tuberculosis. Tt exists to such a minor degree in two-thirds that the department is confident that in 10 years it can free that area, as Dr. Mohler said this morning, and preserve that area from tuberculosis. And what is that area? A large part of it is the Southern States, where there is the greatest development of live-stock industry growing in that territory that there is in any section of the United States to-day. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 221 _At the International Livestock Show, Mr. Chairman, where you visited last week, from the Southern States, where 10 years ago they did not raise anything but a $10 cow, they produced this year the gand champion short-horn of America, the grand champion Here- ford of America, and the grand champion Angus of America. It is in that territory that the live-stock industry is developing, and it is just as important for the United States Government and for the _ State officials and for the live-stock owners in general to preserve that territory free from tuberculosis as it is to develop any branch of agriculture. We can do it to-day at a very much cheaper rate than we will ever be able to do it, and by our precautionary measures to keep tuberculous animals out of that territory we are going to pre- serve at this time that territory in which the greatest advancement of the cattle industry will come about in the next 10 or 20 years. The balance of the territory, as Dr. Mohler says, is a different proposition. Tuberculosis exists in it to the extent of from 5 per cent to 30 per cent among the cattle. , Only a month ago I was up in Otsego County, N. Y., where they have 5,500 farms, and where they have cattle on 5,000 farms. I went before the county bureau there and discussed tuberculosis. I told them, “Gentlemen, we are not coming in to ask you to create any new laws or to put any coercive measures on the people of this county. We are putting up the proposition to you that tuberculosis is a men- ace to the live-stock industry, and therefore a menace to the whole United States; that tuberculosis can be eradicated; it has been demonstrated. It is up to the people of this county if you desire to eradicate the disease; and the State will cooperate with you, and as far as possible the Government will cooperate with you.” They adopted the tuberculosis accredited herd area in that country as a five-year plan for eradicating the disease. Gentlemen, the place to eradicate tuberculosis is back on the farm, and the only way to do it is by taking the herd as a unit. You might work from now until the end of time, tuberculin testing cattle at public stockyards, where you get only one animal out of a herd or only two or three animals out of a herd. That does not eradicate tuberculosis if it exists in the herds back home. The place to eradi- cate tuberculosis is back on the farms, and the farmers of this coun- try have shown their willingness and their appreciation of the oppor- tunity of cooperating in this measure in the extermination of the disease by going to their legislatures and getting appropriations of $2,000,000. This is a new work, two years old. It has met with almost universal approval. They are engaged in it in 45 States, and we know that within the next year or two the other three States will be actively engaged in the work. It is only a proposition of keeping pace with the demands for the work. Of course, it is the right of the States to look after the live-stock industry in the States; but this is a national proposition. Cows that dre in one State to-day may be over in another State to-morrow, and unless you control this disease of tuberculosis, it is no respecter of State lines and it will go across. The people have demonstrated that they want this work, and when I had the pleasure of coming here before I remember some of the members stated that it ought to be done on the cooperative basis. That is what we have undertaken to do, and I believe that it is on a cooperative basis, it is on a logical basis, it is on a plan that if 222 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. carried out can not help but succeed in eradicating tuberculosis, or reducing it to a very small percentage. There was some mention made this morning about employing the services of private veterinarians. Our plan for this work is, we recognize the fact that Congress will never, and probably it should not ever, appropriate a sufficient amount of money to employ enough ‘officials to go around the country testing all the cows, and supple- mented by congressional appropriations. The 48 States would never appropriate a sufficient amount of money to go around and test everybody’s cows, and I do not think it right that they should. But it is necessary to make a demonstration in all these States and to get this thing on a working basis. We contemplate under this accredited herd plan—and that is the plan adopted by the breeders and approved of by every State in the United States and by the Bureau of Animal Industry—that after a herd has been accredited two years, that herd may be turned back to the private veterinarian and the department get rid of that herd, so as to be able to take on new herds. The private veteri- narian will be paid by the private individuals. In addition to that, as Dr. Mohler said this morning, there are about 6,000 private veterinarians in the United States who have been approved of to test cattle for interstate shipment. We contemplate that the time is coming when these 6,000, or maybe 10,000, of the veterinarians of the United States will be engaged in this official work of eradicating tuberculosis, not paid out of the Government’s funds or paid out of the State treasuries, but paid by the owners, And we are building along those lines, getting everybody acquainted with the work and building up efficiency of the veterinarians throughout the United States, so that in time they can serve the purposes for which they were educated and help in the control and eradication of the diseases. Another project in this work is the eradication of tuberculosis from an area. Take a county, for instance. In several States we are now engaged in the eradication of the disease from a county. In the State of Mississippi, in Hinds County and Clay County, the people voted on the proposition there, “Shall we eradicate tubercu- losis from livestock?” By very substantial majorities that was car- ried in both elections, and they are so engaged in the eradication of this disease from those counties. After they clean up the disease in those counties, then they will have to be protected from the infec- tion of cattle from other States. And another advantage is that after they clean up the disease from those counties the work will spread from county to county until it embraces a large area of the State, and probably the entire State; and then, when that area is clean, the county, or a group of counties, or the entire State, may become clean; then the interstate shipment of cattle from that terri- tory may be permitted without any further tuberculin testing. So that you see it is all working to that time when the interstate movement of cattle can be facilitated without restrictions. That is what we are working to. But until that time comes every State and every breeder must exercise eternal vigilance to prevent, as far as possible, the movement of diseased animals from one State into an- other. ee eee AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 223 In the Western States, in the arid section of the West, tuberculosis is not known among the range cattle, or it exists to a very insignifi- cant degree. The only place you will find the disease there is down in the valleys where they started little dairy herds and brought cat- tle in from the older dairy States. There you will find a good deal of the disease. So that it is in those areas we must put forth the great effort to free them from what little disease there is, and then preserve them free from tuberculosis, and in the other areas carry on this work according to the demands of the people, That is the whole plan we have in mind; not to get any drastic iaws and make it compulsory to have animals tested, but to build up among the live-stock owners of America a confidence in the ability to control and eradicate this disease. Thank you. The Cuarrman. You were speaking about the dairy herds. What are the conditions as to introducing new stock into a herd? Mr. Kiernan. Into an accredited herd ? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Kiernan. Before an animal can be introduced into an ac- credited herd it must have had two tuberculin tests, separated by a period of 60 days. The Cuarrman. That is a part of the agreement? Mr. Kiernan. The owner signs an agreement to that effect; yes, sir. Mr. Raney. You heard the discussion this morning between Mr. Brown of Chicago and Mr. Munn from St. Paul. There seems to be a conflict of understanding with reference to this appropriation. Mr. Brown suggested that in his estimation, inspection was para- mount; that indemnity should be allowed, but if either one were to be curtailed, probably it would be preferable that indemnity be cur- tailed. The gentlemen from St. Paul suggested that the farmers might strenuously object to that. s your idea of the situation this: That the amount to be allowed by Congress should be given to the Department of Agriculture in a lump sum, and that they should pay for inspection whatever inspec- tion is necessary, and that they should also apply the necessary amount to indemnity ; and in applying the amount to indemnity that will necessarily lower the amount appropriated that they can use in salaries, but that the department should have discretionary powers, that it should be voted in a lump sum, and that it should be an elastic appropriation, and that you men who go about this particular thing should use it in that way? Mr. Kiernan. Yes; those are my views on the subject. Mr. Rarney. In that way you could provide for the inspection now, and at the same time take care of the indemnity also as it arises? Mr. Krernan. Yes, sir. It seems only reasonable to me, if the State or the Government, after testing cattle, condemns them and takes them away from the owner for the welfare of the live-stock industry, that the State or the Government should reimburse the : owner for the loss, or partially reimburse him, at least. .Mr. Rainey. In the appropriation as it stands you are limited to a certain amount for indemnity, and a certain amount for inspec- tion, and the amount allotted for inspection does not give the depart- ment opportunity to comply with the innumerable requests that have been made for inspection ? Mr. Kiernan. That states the case. 224 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. . { _ Mr. Ratney. The only way you can carry on your work effectively is to have a more elastic fund, so that you can send out the inspec- tors to discover this disease by inspection? Mr. Kiernan. That states it exactly, according to my view of it. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Kiernan. Mr. Ratney. The last time I was here I made a plea for the veteri- narians, to increase their stipend. Dr. Kiernan is a veterinarian, and I think he is wasting his time working for the Government. He ought to get outside where he can make more money. Mr. Smiru. You mentioned a difference of opinion between Mr. Brown and Mr. Munn. Mr. Brown represents the various live-stock -exchanges throughout the country, and he feels the great importance of stock-yard inspection to prevent the shipping out of these animals from the yards to the farms; but in his belief in that work he also believes just as heartily in the testing out on the farms. I know Mr. Brown very well, and I know that he feels greatly encouraged over the testing and accerditing of herds in the country. I think both of them are equally important. It is absolutely true that the disease exists in the stockyards because it exists on the farms first. And so Mr. Munn is right in saying that we ought to give greater attention to this cleaning-up process on the farms, and that would decrease the disease in the stockyards. Just one other point I want to make with regard to our produc- tion of live stock, and that is this: I mentioned this morning that we had now the highest prices on beef in the history of our country. Top prices for beef were 21 cents in Chicago yesterday. Those are the very highest prices, and that is due to scarcity. We have not a sufficient number of cattle in the country, and I fear that unless we can stimulate production we are going to see prices higher, to the detriment of the consumers. We have a shortage of cattle in this country. The range is no longer able to supply the demands of the feeders. The range has reached its limit. If we are going to have an increase of cattle throughout the United States, they must come largely from our farms, and if we are going to stimulate the production of cattle on our farms we ought to do everything we can to build up the industry on a healthy basis. We can not build up any industry on a diseased basis. So that this is right in line with our campaign for progressive production to eliminate this disease. which is a positive hindrance to development. I want to make that clear. The Cuarrman. Have you any others to be heard, Doctor? Mr. Smrru. I do not know of any others. The Cuairman. Mr. Hays, do you wish to be heard? Mr. Hays. Yes, sir. STATEMENT OF MR. MARTIN HAYS, OF BOSTON, MASS., COUNSEL OF THE NEW ENGLAND FARMERS’ AND LIVE STOCK DEALERS’ ASSOCIATION (INC.). The CrarrMAn. Please state your name and residence. Mr. Hays. I am from Boston, Mass., and I represent the New England Farmers’ and Live Stock Dealers’ Association (Inc.). That is a Massachusetts incorporation, organized in 1918. Mr. Jones. What position do you have in that association or or- ganization ! AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 225 Mr. Hays. I am counsel for them. Mr. Jonzs. It is an association of farmers and whem? Mr. Hays. Massachusetts farmers and live stock dealers. That association .has a membership at the present time of about 150 farm- ers, cattle raisers and cattle dealers in all the New England States. The market for cattle for those people is the Brighton stockyards at Boston, Mass. Until July 1, 1919, the cattle at the Brighton stockyards were under State inspection. On that date the Federal Government took over the inspection. I am addressing my remarks to this honorable committee in refer- ence to tuberculin tests. These tests are made in accordance with regulations with which you are all familiar and I will not take up your time with the details unless you, Mr. Chairman, or any one of the other members of your committee desire to question me. After a cow has been ordered killed by the Government inspector because of the fact that the chart after inoculation shows her to be a “reactor” there is always a post-mortem examination. If after such a post-mortem examination no lesion is found there is no way of showing that the animal was tubercular. Under the present condi- tions the owner of this animal has no redress. That is the grievance of my clients. We find no fault if an animal is ordered killed and a post-mortem examination shows lesions, but it seems to us that a great hardship and wrong is inflicted upon us if through no fault or act of ours an animal is condemned and ordered killed because it is decreed tubercu- lar and thereafter is found healthy and free from tuberculosis. Since the Government inspection on July 1 last and to date about 150 milch cows were wrongfully killed, and I beg to present herewith a copy of a letter and inclosure from Dr. E. A. Crossman, inspector of the Bureau of Animal Industry at Boston, Mass.: Novemser 12, 1919. Martin Hays, Esq., 18 Tremont. Street, Boston, Mass. Dear Sir: As per your request, please find inclosed list of cattle slaughtered and no lesions found covering the period from July 9, 1919, to October 30, 1919, inclusive. Very truly, yours, E. A. CRossMAN, Inspector in Charge. Then follows a list of cattle slaughtered, with the names of the owners, which is as follows: List of cattle slaughtered and no lesions found from July 9 to Oct. 80, 1919, inclusive. W. A. Ricker : 32 | G. B. Parr -___---__--___________ 2 D. A. Walker 3 | Putnam Bros____--_--_------___ 9 R. J. Blanchard 2:| B.. Crosby. 22-2 3 Bie Toy BADD YS See eee ecco Ss || Gi Tali IGS Oso 2 eS ns 6 W... G, Savages _ 0. a eee Dy | cAtW00ds a. asx ene eee aoe 2 Burlingame _-------------------- 3 | MeSatyre 2222-25. 2502 --- 2} 1 F. O. Thompson_-_-------------- Tl) Coney 2c oe eee te 3 Austin Brooks__---------------- T |, A. “Clark= one 2 F. L. Brown & Son___----------- di. | JU@VIN@L S22 ee ee 1 V. Hans0tse2-<-2 sess cee ene 2 | Gl@RSOR 25am eae 1 Gy... Hanson aces ee ee dy | (MOP cc saesede ce tense sae eee 1 Dorand Bros___----------------- 5 — ID: Simon: 4-555-2-se2-ss-5-55 1 PO tea be os the Sor Riese 102 I ase os iaihioh section denon i 164315—20——15 226 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. How many are there, altogether ? Mr. Hays. The total is 102. oS McLaveuuin of Michigan. What is the percentage of the total ¢ Mr. Hays. If my memory serves me, 318 were ordered killed, and 131 were found without lesions. : Mr. Witson. Nearly 50 per cent? Mr. Haxs. Nearly 50 per cent, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Wuson. In this list there were 102? Mr. Hays. That is by Dr. Crossman’s figures, from July 9 to Octo- ber 30, 1919. Mr. Jones. Your data are for the year? Mr. Hays. They only commence July 1. Previous to that we were under Massachusetts State inspection. . Mr. Jones. Within what period of time did the slaughter of 131 animals take place? Mr. Hays. From July 1 up to date. Mr. McLavucuttn of Michigan. Those inspections must have been largely by State inspectors? Mr. Hays. They were entirely by Federal inspectors. The State inspection ceased on the Ist day of July and the Federal inspection commenced. , Mr. Canpter. Do they not have State inspection ? Mr. Hars. There are State inspectors there, but this is all under the supervision of the Federal inspectors. Mr. Canpuer. Do the Federal inspectors report to the State in- spectors? Do they work under them? Mr. Hays. No; they do not. The tuberculin testing in that yard I am informed is entirely by the Federal Government. The Cuatrman. The men are employees of the Federal Govern- ment? Mr. Hays. Mr. Kiernan made an investigation of that. Mr. Kiernan. They are employed by the bureau and State. Mr. Wuson. Is that the percentage that is usually found without lesions? ’ Dr. Mouter. No. I think the Brighton tests show up the poorest of any for reasons which I will mention later. We have all the tests at the various stockyards here and many of them will show as satisfactory as tests on farms. Mr. Hays. Permit me to illustrate how that affects my clients. I quote from a letter addressed to me by Mr. William A. Ricker, a cattle dealer from St. Johnsbury, Vt., dated November 17, 1919: Cow No. 41788. My No. 3416 proved to be all right; no lesions at all. Now, I had this cow sold to Mr. Coburn for $125 and I realized from same for beef purposes: only $32. Now, here isa loss to me of $93. The loss in these cases will probably average $100 per animal, and inasmuch as the people whom I represent are to a large extent small cattle dealers it has resulted in some instances in such great hardship that the profits of an entire year were lost and in one or two cases has put the cattle raiser and shipper out of business. The laws of Massachusetts provide for reimbursement in instances such as I have cited and until July 1, 1919, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts reimbursed the owner in all instances where no lesions AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 227 were found after an animal had been ordered killed after tuberculin tests and no lesions had been found. : We earnestly desire your favorable consideration for an appro- priation so that the United States Department of Agriculture will have the right to pay the difference between what the carcass brings for beef, plus the. value of the hide and the value of the animal before slaughter. I have been in conference with Dr. J. R. Mohler, Chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry at Washington, D. C., with Dr. E. A. Crossman, in charge of the Bureau of Animal Industry at Boston, Mass., and with other veterinarians connected with the department and they are unanimously of the opinion that such legislation as I am asking for should be favorably acted upon. Inasmuch as there is no opposition to the proposed legislation and necessary appropriation and as I can conceive of none from any source, I am not going to burden your honorable committee with any extended remarks. If the principle involved appeals to your sense of fairness and justice, I believe you should make the taking effect of the legisla- tion retroactive to July 1, 1919, so that those persons who have suffered because of the conditions which I have described, through no fault of their own, may be reimbursed, subject to the approval of the Department of Animal Industry. Having presented a situa- tion which admittedly requires alleviation, I leave the cause of the people whom I represent to your consideration and I earnestly urge speedy action. I might supplement this, if I may be permitted, Mr. Chairman, by stating that our situation is not analogous to that of the gentle- man who preceded in the other hearing. When an animal is con- demned, and there are lesions found, the people that I represent ask for nothing from the Government, and are perfectly willing to. have the animal slaughtered and to pocket their loss. It is only when an animal has been slaughtered under the direc- tion and by order of the Government, and the Government can not prove its case—in other words where no lesion is found in the animal, and it is therefore presumably liealthy—that I ask that the men I represent be not burdened with a loss which they: did not contribute to in any way. Mr. McLaveuurw of Michigan. What is the proceeding in-a case like you speak of there? The writer of this letter had a cow which he said that he had sold for $125 before it was killed. Mr. Hays. For $125. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. But when the butcher handled it, it was worth only $35. Mr. Hays. Only $32, in this case. Thev run from $30 to $50. _Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. There was an appraisement of the value of the cow before she was slaughtered, was there not? Mr. Hays. Not necessarily. He brought the cow there for sale, and sold the cow for $125. These are dairy cows, you know. The Cuairman. He sold the cow subject to test? Mr. Hays. No; I do not think so. The cow was sold subject to the test, of course. There is no liability to produce the cow. “Mr. Jones. If he sold it, he could have got his money under the sale. 228 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. I understand that where the Bu- reau of Animal Industry, cooperating with the State authorities, slaughters an animal, there is an estimate made of its value for breeding purposes or for beef, so that there must have' been an esti- mate of the value of this cow before she was killed. Mr. Hays. You mean an estimate by the Federal authorities ? Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Yes. Mr. Hays. None that I know of. oe McLaveutin of Michigan. I supposed that was the pro- ceeding. Mr. Jonss. That would not make any difference if he had sold the cow for $125. Whatever estimate they made on it, he would not be bound by their estimate, but the Government would have to pay for it on the accredited value. Dr. Mouter. This was an interstate movement through a public stockyard. The Government under present regulations does not pay for animals that react except where the whole herd is under supervision and the owner is cooperating to get a clean herd. r. McLaveuurn of Michigan. Was not this done under this ap- propriation ? Mr. Hays. Not under the accredited herd provision. It was done under the interstate movement of live stock. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Under the authority under which you are acting, have you the right to. compel the killing of the animal? Dr. Mouter. No; but we have a right to prevent its shipment, in- terstate, from the public stockyards, and it could not get out of the stockyards, to move intrastate, without the consent of the State offi- cials, if it reacted to the tuberculin test. Let me explain that this is not connected with our accredited herd work. The cow in question came from Vermont into Massachusett, and for the convenience of the owners, we have permitted cattle from other States to go into the Brighton Stockyard, at Boston, where they are held for the tubercu- lin test. This was a dairy cow, coming from another State into Mas- sachusetts, and she evidently reacted to the tuberculin test, but on the post-mortem no visible lesions were found. Mr. McLavueuun of Michigan. Acting under that law, can you compel the creature to be killed ? Dr. Mouter. No; but as a rule they are killed, although they could be quarantined. ‘ r. McLavcuutn of Michigan. Whether the owner wishes it or not ? Dr. Mouter. They are either killed or quarantined. They can not be moved interstate, under the organic act of 1884. Mr. Jones. Any you pay no indemnity on these animals? Dr. Mouter. No. This is not a question alone of getting rid of tuberculosis, it is a question of protecting the buyer from purchasing diseased cattle in interstate trade. Mr. Jones, That is not done under this act? Dr. Mouter. It is not done under the project for the tuberculosis- free accredited herd work. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. What course would you have taken if you had quarantined that animal? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 229 Dr. Mounier. We would have called in the State, and the State officials would have disposed of it according to the State regulations. We had no control of ihe animal except ag an interstate product. Mr. McLaveuturn of Michigan. You can forbid the shipment from one State to another? Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. Jones. Then I understand that under your interstate pro- visions the Government has the right to take an individual cow and slaughter it, without paying any damage to the owner of any kind? Dr. Mouter. No; the Government does not order the slaughter, but if the cow is killed there has been no provision made for indemni- fying the owner of an animal shipped in interstate commerce. The CuarrmMan. You did not order the killing of that cow? Dr. Mouter. No. We have no authority to order reacting animals killed. Mr. McLauveuurn of Michigan. But the cow was killed under your direction ? Dr. Moutsr. As the result of the cooperative test with State in- spectors. Mr. McLaventuin of Michigan. But you did not order her killed? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. _ Mr. McLavertr of Michigan. And were not responsible for the killing? : Dr. Mouter. No, sir. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. And the Federal Government did not pay anything toward it? _ Dr. Montrr. No. That is what the gentleman is referring to. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. But what is the effect, if you say a cow can not go any further? Mr. Ler. It is to quarantine. Mr. McLaventurn of Michigan. But if it can not leave the quar- antine for any other purpose, that compels it to be killed? The Cuairman. Under the law it has to be returned to the State from which it came? Dr. Mouter. If pure bred it could be returned to the State of origin, under the regulations. We can not compel it to be slaugh- tered. Mr. McLaueuuy of Michigan. So that the owner of that cow could have taken that cow back where she came from and put her in quarantine, or she could have been killed? Mr. Hays. I suppose possibly he might, but it seems to me, in listening to the arguments this morning, it would be diametrically opposite to what this committee would desire, if a cow is tubercular that it should be returned to the place of origin and be allowed to be at large there. : Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. They were operating under a law that we were not considering this morning. Mr. Hays. Yes; of course; but the contagion that might arise from that cow would be the same in the case of a small dealer that has only half a‘dozen cows as in the case of'a larger one. The people that ship their cattle to Brighton have anywhere from one animal up, and it is a public stockyard and they send their cattle there for sale. 2300 | AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3 Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. You speak of being a small dealer. I think it would be pretty small if the cow was worth only $35. Mr. Hays. That is all she brought. She was worth $125. She was sold for that. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. She was worth $125 as a dairy cow, but only $32 as meat? Mr. Hays. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. I would like to get this thing cleared up. Do you understand that when that cow was quarantined by the Federal Gov- ernment the owner of the cow had a right to take the cow back home? Mr. Hays. I did not know that. Asa matter of practice Mr. Jonus. As a matter of fact, he authorized the killing of the cow? pone owner acquiesced in it? Was there anything else for him to do? Mr. Hays. I will ask Mr. Ricker to answer that. Mr. Ricxer. The man there under Dr. Mohler’s charge ordered these cattle killed, and I had‘no redress from it. Mr. Jonrs. Who ordered them killed? Mr. Ricxer. The Federal bureau. Dr. Monter. Did they serve you with a notice, or how did they order them killed? Mr. Ricxer. I do not know. They ordered them killed. Dr. Monter. Our inspectors did not kill them, of course. Mr. Ricxer. They take them to the slaughterhouse and they are killed. Mr. Hays. I know they ordered them killed; and, as I undersand, they were killed, and we got no compensation. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. The Government officials are usu- ally very competent and very careful, but sometimes they make mis- takes, and if we had to make good all the mistakes that officials of the Federal Government make, it would take a good deal of money. Mr. Hays. Mr. Chairman, I might say, in answer to that, that if I understand the feeling in the department, which I have gathered from conversations with various veterinarians, they would rather kill 10 healthy cows than to let one unhealthy one escape; so that if there is any doubt, if there is any temperature shown, whatsoever, on the test, they order the cow killed; and while it might be a hard- ship in some instances for the Government to pay for the mistakes of all its agents, nevertheless in the law, as the Congressmen well know, it is the theory, and it is a greater hardship on an individual to stand it, it seems to me, than for the Government to do so. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Let me give you a case showing an instance of the way the Government deals with some of its people. There was a lady in my congressional district who was informed, upon inquiry, that certain land was open-to homestead entry, and she took up 80 acres of land under a homestead entry. She made a proper filing and went into possession and improved that property to the extent of $2,500. Later she found that another patent had been issued previously to hers, and the land was taken away from her by the owner who had the previous title. She put.the matter up to the Land Office here, and the Land Office said, “ Why, the Govern- ment does not issue quit claims, and we can not do anything for you.” Mr. Hays. Mr. Chairman, I do not think that is analogous. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 231 _ Mr. McLaucuuin of Michigan. I do not think so, either. I think it is highway robbery. ’ Mr. Hays. She should have examined the title. Mr. McLauveuutn of Michigan. Oh, pardon me, she did. She asked the official representatives to tell her from the State records, and they told her that the land was open to homestead entry. How could she know ? Mr. Hays. I should also imagine, Mr. Chairman—not wanting to deviate from the subject—that she has so able a Representative in Congress that she will probably be reimbursed. [Laughter.] Mr. Jonzs. He might take this cow case for you. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Who represents the congressional district where this loss was suffered ? Mr. Hays. Those animals come from several States. We have not any direct Representative on this committee. There are no New England men on this committee. Dr. Mouter. May I say something with reference to this point brought up by Mr, Hays? As you all know, it is against the statute for diseased cattle to be shipped in interstate commerce, and one of our regulations requires a tuberculin test for dairy cattle mov- ing interstate. As an exception to that rule of not permitting cattle to move into any other State without examination, and for the convenience of the owners, we are allowing these cattle to be shipped to the Brighton stockyards and examined there. I think we have records of 322 reacting animals killed, which were shipped to the Brighton stockyards, 217 of which were visibly tuberculous, and the difference between 322 and 217, or 105, showing no visible lesions. That is an accuracy of about 68 per cent, so that it is slightly more than the figures given by Mr. Hays. But the point is that we are doing this as a convenience to the owners of the cattle, and it was not proper for the man who was doing this buying to ship 217 diseased cattle into Massachusetts. The whole problem can be solved by Mr. Ricker, as I have told him, by having the cattle tested in Vermont, and if they are diseased held in Vermont and not brought into Massachusetts in interstate traffic. That is what I think is largely being done now. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. If those cattle had been examined in the State of Vermont, a certificate would have been issued there ? Dr. Mouter. Yes; and they could have come into Massachusetts under that certificate. Mr. McLaueuuin of Michigan. And would that have been accepted by you? Dr. Mouter. Yes; and by Massachusetts also. That is what is being done. There are more animals being tested to-day in Vermont .and New Hampshire and Maine for shipment to the Brighton stock- yards than ever before. Before the 1st of July the cattle that came to the Brighton stockyards, as Mr. Hays has stated, were tested by the Massachusetts officials. They did not take them all on one test, but if they reacted they held the reactors over for another test, and the result was that they were sometimes able on the second test to pass animals. A number of those that reacted the first time were con- sidered clean the second time. But they were not all considered clean. There were still those that would react to the second test. 232 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. When those animals are tested in Vermont before being shipped out, by whom are they tested ? Dr. Mouter. By anyone considered satisfactory by Commissioner Baer of Vermont, and approved by us. r. McLavenun of Michigan. You do not require them to be inspected by a member of your bureau ? Dr. Moutrr. No. That is done by these 6,000 or 7,000 veterinari- ans who are approved by the bureau. We do not claim that the tuberculin test is infallible, although we find that it works satisfac- torily on animals on farms in 95 per cent of the cases. These Brighton stockyard animals are dairy cows, and they are bagged up and fed high and brought on there in a strange environment to be sold. The chairman knows how very hard it is on the system of a dairy cow to be bagged up and fed high in order to make a good showing on sales day, as everything is against the tuberculin test when applied to cattle under those conditions. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. When they get to the post-mortem examination and there is no lesion found, is that considered con- clusive of the fact that there is no tuberculosis? Dr. Moutszr. No, sir; it is not. ; Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. A cow may be infected with tuber- culosis although no lesions are found? Dr. Monter. That is often the case. As I said, we have had a number of glands from no-lesion reactors sent to our laboratory in Washington for miscroscopic examination and the last figures I had show tuberculosis in about 50 per cent of the glands sent in from these no-lesion cattle that are killed, while the other 50 per cent are normal. ’ The Cuarrman. What was the remedy for the owner in this case? The cow could have been shipped back to Vermont? Dr. Mouturr. Yes; if it was a pure-bred cow. Pure-bred cattle can be returned to the State of origin, but no other kind can be so returned. That was allowed by our regulations two years ago. I understand that this was a Holstein cow. The Cuarrman. Under the the rules and regulations it could have been shipped back ? Dr. Mouter. Yes. . The Cuairman. The law permits it? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Hays. My people would be satisfied with a reasonable test, and it seems to me that if the Government can not show, either by an examination of the glands, if the Government thinks that is neces- sary, or by the ordinary test that is applied and finding of lesions, and if the agent has made a mistake and there is no tuberculosis in the carcass, then the owner should not be asked to bear the burden, particularly as under our State inspection he was not asked to do so. There was no difficulty about it under the State inspection. The Commonwealth paid the bill. If they found that they had killed a cow and there was no lesion, the Commonwealth paid for it, and that was the end of it. Those were the conditions up until the 1st day of July; and I trust you gentlemen will take into consideration that while there were 171 or 270 animals killed, they did not come from one or two or three or four or five shippers, they came from AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 233. a large number of small shippers; and that you should not penalize one unlucky fellow because there may have been a bad actor in some section of New England. ‘That is the situation here to-day. We are here with a wrong, without any remedy, unless you gentlemen give it to us. The Cyarrman. Would the 50-50 plan be satisfactory to your State, and would your State put up an equal amount? Mr. Hays. I think not, as long as it is under Federal inspection. I have talked with Dr. Howard, who was the head of our board of animal industry, and he did not favor it at the time. What ow: legislature would do I am not prepared to say. he CuairMan. The department has no discretion ? Mr. Hays. Not if we pass an act. The Cuarrman. On the 50-50 plan? Mr. Hays. Not if we pass an act. But whether they would want to do that when the inspection is Federal and the mistake is Federal, 1 am not prepared to say. I do not really see why the Common- wealth should pay for a mistake of the Federal Government. It would be different if we paid for every animal that showed tubercu- lous tendencies—that would be one proposition—in order to eradicate the disease, and if the owner of the animal was satisfied with that. But we are in a different position. Whenever the animal is tubercu- lous we are perfectly satisfied to have it killed for our mistake. It is only when the animal is not tuberculous that we appeal to you. The Cuarrman. There seems to be some question as to who is re- sponsible for the condemnation, whether the cow is condemned by the department or by the State, or voluntarily by the owner. Mr. Hays. As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, the test is made by the Government. The Cuarrman. Yes. ' Mr. Hays. And the Government inspector condemns the cow to. death, and it is killed without much loss of time. That is the practi- cal working out of it. The Cuarrman. I understood the doctor to say that the test was. made there as a matter of convenience to the owners. Mr. Hays. No; it is a matter of necessity. The matter of con- venience is that it is at the stockyards, and that convenience works. just as much for the benefit of the bureau as it does for that of the shipper and dealer. Here is one central point where a large num- ber of the cattle of New England are sent, and it is much more con- venient for the Government than to have its men travel all over New England testing these cattle. Dr. Mouter. We would not attempt to do that, of course. Mr. Hays. You could not attempt that. We have had an exper- ience in having our animals tested before shipment. I might state an unfortunate case that happened, where they were cited for re- testing, and when I made complaint and said that this man who ex- amined the cattle was approved by the Federal department, and asked them why they retested them, they said, “Oh, he did some things we did not like, and we had to retest.” In other words, the department has not got that confidence in all veterinary agents that. it might have; and we have no way of knowing whether the veteri- narian who would test our cattle in the States stands in the good graces of the department or otherwise. 234 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Hurcuinson. These cattle were brought: from Vermont to be slaughtered in Boston ?. Mr. Hays. No; for dairy purposes. _ Mr. Horcurnson. Not to be slaughtered? i Mr. Hays. No; they are brought in from New Hampshire and Vermont and a few from Maine, into Massachusetts. Some of:them are sent to the other New England States, and some are sold to Rhode Island and some to Connecticut, and some stay in Massachusetts. Mr. Jonrs. And some might be sold back to Vermont? Mr. Hays. Yes; some might be sold back to Vermont. Brighton is.a suburb of Boston. That is the great market in that part of the country. Mr. Horcuinson. There are none of those cattle that come in there without a certificate, are there? Mr. Hays. No; they have the option of being tested in Brighton. Mr. Hurcurnson. Who gives them the option of being tested in Brighton ? r. Hays. The department, as I understand. Mr. Hurcuinson. Suppose they stopped that; would not that rem- edy the case? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Hurcutnson. That is what they ought to do. Dr. Monter. The Secretary’s regulations allow these cattle from one State to go into a public stockyard in another State and be tested there, purely for the convenience of the shippers and not for the sake of the department at all, because it would be less work for us to have tests made in Vermont through State men and have the ani- mals shipped into Massachusetts with the Vermont test charts. Our man at Brighton, instead of taking 36 hours to make a. test, could see if the test chart was all right, and then O. K. it in five ininutes, Mr. Hurcuinsoyn. That is what you should do. Dr. Mouter. Yes; I think Mr. Ricker has been doing that for the past few months. Mr. Hays. I would say, on that, that at many points in the States no veterinarian is accessible, and an examination there would entail a large expense. It might cost $25 if a man had one or two cows that he wanted tested, and it would be unreasonable; and they would not know to a certainty that that test would be satisfactory to the department. The owner would not know but what that particular agent had gotten in bad with the department and that his test would not be satisfactory. Dr. Mouter. He is not the agent of the Government; he may be the agent of the State. Mr. Hays. He becomes an agent when he is approved. The word “agent” is used in this broader sense. A veterinarian may out- wardly, at least, have the approval of the department, but when these papers get to Brighton the dealer is likely to find out that the papers have no value in the eyes of the department. The Cuarrman. You have no authority to appraise animals except on the farm ? : Dr. Monter. Not under the present law; no, sir. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 235 Mr. Hays. I would like to call on Mr. Ricker to make a statement. The Cuamman. The only remedy in this case is to ship the cattle back to the States? Dr. Mourn. The owner can do that, of course, only in case the cattle are pure-bred animals. The Cuamman. That preference given to pure-bred animals is through a regulation of the department? Dr. Monten. In the law of 1917, I think, you will find that it states only pure-bred animals could be returned. That, I think, was in the original-act for accredited herd work. The Cuamman, It states that the Secretary of Agriculture may in his discretion, under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, permit cattle which have been shipped for breeding, and so on. . There is nothing about pure-bred cattle there. Dr. Monter. Then it is a regulation, which prescribes pure-bred cattle. I thought it was in the law. Mr. Hays. No. May I not ask, would not that defeat the object of this honorable committee in regard to the eradication of tuber- culosis, if, assuming that an animal is tuberculous, it should be allowed to be shipped back? ’ The Cuairman. That was put in the law in order to make it cer- tain that they were not to reimburse the packers, but would reim- burse the farmers. The packers definitely make an allowance, or such reductions necessary to make good the losses through tubercu- losis. We thought it would be too big a proposition to reimburse the packers, and I think all who appeared before the committee agreed with us. Mr. Hays. That does not deal directly or indirectly with the farmers. It is only the small dealers in New England who are in- terested and concerned in this, and I would like to have you hear from Mr. Ricker. Mr. Canpier. I do not understand about the functions exercised by your State authorities. Since the 1st of July they have had no authority at all? Mr. Hays. So far as tuberculosis is concerned, no. That is en- tirely Federal. Mr. Canpter. They have gone out of business so far as that fea- ture of it is concerned ? Mr. Hays. So far as State inspection is concerned. The State does not function. The Federal Government has taken it all. Mr. Canpier. That is relating to these interstate shipments? Mr. Hays. Yes. Mr. Canpter. So far as the State is concerned, the State authori- ties still exercise authority over that business? Mr. Hays. Yes. Mr. Canpiter. This is merely in respect to interstate shipments coming into the State that the Federal Government has control? Mr. Hays. Yes; there is no tuberculin test, as I understand it, of State cattle. In other words, if a man from Massachusetts brings his animals into the Brighton yards, there is no test. Mr. Canpter. As I understand, and I am a little surprised to learn that, there is no cooperation between the Federal Government authorities and your State authorities. 236 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Hays. So far as I know, there is not. Mr. Jacoway. Ever since I have been on this committee they have been making vast appropriations for this work. What progress have you made in the last five years in stamping out or eradicating’ tuberculosis among cattle? Mr. Hays. I do not think that I can answer that question. I do not know. I found out this morning when I asked, when Dr. Moh- ler was reading the list of appropriations, that Massachusetts ap- propriated last year $53,000. The progress that has been made T am not conversant with. Mr. Jacoway. You have some superficial idea of it, have you not? Mr. Jones. Mr. Hays is an attorney, Mr. Jacoway, representing “an association here. He appears only in that capacity. I do not think he is qualified to answer that question. Mr. Jacoway. All right; I just wanted to see what was being ac- complished. ; Mr. Hays. There are some other questions to be answered, and I would like to call on Mr. Ricker, who is president of the association and is a cattle dealer and cattle raiser. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Hays. We will hear Mr. Ricker. STATEMENT OF MR. W. A. RICKER, ST. JOHNSBURY, VT., PRESI- DENT OF THE NEW ENGLAND FARMERS’ AND LIVE STOCK DEALERS’ ASSOCIATION (INC.). Mr. Ricker. I want to correct Mr. Hays in the name that he gave the association, if you will pardon me. Jt is the New England Live Stock Dealers’ and Farmers’ Association. You gave it, Mr. Hays, as the “ Massachusetts” association. It represents all of the shippers of the New England States shipping into what we call our Brighton market, there, which, is the same for that part of the country as the Chicago market is in the West. I do not know whether you want us to tell the story, or whether you want to ask me questions here. I will do either one you want. We have a veterinarian to go and represent us after these cattle are condemned by the bureau, and he gave me some figures here. He examined these cattle that the Bureau of Animal Industry killed since the Ist day of July, since the Bureau of Animal Industry took the testing of the cattle away from the State of Massachusetts, and his figures show that 318 cattle were destroyed and 131 proved to have no lesions. f Now, all that we are asking for is to get an appropriation here some way, or to get a bill through, so that we can be reimbursed for these mistakes. We think it is a hardship on us. I have got the names of the owners of these cattle and the number of head that were killed at different times, and belonging to different shippers, and the numbers that were condemned. Take myself. I shipped 105 which were killed cattle during this time, and 43 proved to have no lesions. As he says here is a personal letter. to me, some of those they have sent to be examined in the laboratory in Washington, and he has had no report ever made to him on that. Mr. Wirson. Were the 105 cattle you speak of those that were killed ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION. BILL. 237 Mr. Ricxer. One hundred and five were killed, and 43 proved to have no lesions. Mr. Wizson. These cattle were your own personal property ? Mr. Ricker. My personal property. JI have about 75 men buy- ingastock for me throughout Vermont and New Hampshire, and shipping to Brighton anywhere from 110 to 125 milch cows to the Brighton market. It is almost impossible to get them tested in, the country before shipment. We realize that we have been allowed to ship them into this quarantine station, and that is a great help, but we think we are being put upon pretty hard when you take 48 out - of 105 that are sound animals; nothing can be shown against them on examination without a microscope or anything else. Mr. Jones. What is your understanding of what you can do when you are notified that these cows are in quarantine? Mr. Ricker. They are condemned and the Bureau of Animal In- dustry orders them slaughtered. Mr. Jones. Are you given any notice that they are subject to the quarantine ? Mr. Ricker. They are subject to quarantine the minute they arrive there. We can not do anything else with them. Mr. Jones. Are you given notice that they are killed? Mr. Ricxer. We are right there on the ground and see the opera- tion. They put chains around the necks of the animals and if they are free from tuberculosis the chain is removed: Then if they want to hold them for another week for a retest, they put another chain on. them. Mr. Jonrs. Have you any remedy in the matter, or do you know of any? : Mr. Ricker. I do not see that I have any, sir. The Cuairman. Who condemns the cattle? Mr. Ricker. The Bureau of Animal Industry. ; The CuarrmMan. There seems to be some question about it. I un- derstood Dr. Mohler to say that they did not condemn. them. Dr. Mouter. They are condemned by the tuberculin test, as react- ing to the test for tuberculosis. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. By your men? Dr. Mouter. Sometimes by our men and sometimes by the State men who are always there. In fact, the testing is done cooperatively, the State having the same number of men as the bureau. A cow may have one temperature taken by a bureau man and the next by a State man or vice versa. : The Cuarrman. They are declared to be tuberculous, but you do not order them killed, do you? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; we do not order them killed. The Cuatrman. Who orders them killed? Dr. Mouter. Mr. Ricker knows more about that. Mr. Ricxer. I know of no one else but your man that orders them slaughtered. = -Dr. Mouter. But they are shipped there subject to test, and the understanding is that, if they are tuberculous, they can not go any farther, and they are then subject to State regulation. Dr. Monter. The man that injects the tuberculin is not the man who does the post-mortem work. 238 ’ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. on Ricwer, But the man that inspects them tells them to kill them. Mr. Jones. Who tells them to kill them ? Dr. Mouter. I do not know, I am sure. Mr. Jones. What do you know about that, Mr. Ricker? Mr. Ricxer. All I know is that some one of those men takes these cattle, and they are driven down to the cattle house and killed. my Hays. Is that a State man or a Department of Agriculture man ? Mr. Ricker. I do not know. Mr. Hays. Who orders them killed? Mr. Ricxrr. I do not know. I ani-not in touch with that. Dr. Mouter. The man in charge of the Federal work at Brighton stockyards is Dr. Crossman, while the State work there is in charge of Dr. Howard, who has three representatives present all the time. Dr. Howard is the chief of the department of animal industry of Massachusetts, and he and Dr. Crossman cooperate in the friendliest way, each in accordance with his authority. Mr. Ricxer. Dr. White? . Dr. Mouter. Yes; he is there, representing the State of Massa- chusetts. Mr. Wizson. Who makes the post-mortem examination ? Dr. Mouter. If the animal goes to a Federal-inspected establish- ment, the inspector of the Federal meat-inspection service makes it. Mr. Witson. I am talking about these cows, now. Dr. Monter. I have not specific data on these cows. Mr. Witson. Where clo they go; to the packing house? Dr. Mouter. To the packing house, or a slaughterhouse of some kind, that is under Government inspection. ‘ The CHarrman. Do. you know who makes the post-mortem ex- amination ? Dr. Mouter. If it is done in a Federal plant, the Federal Gov- ernment makes it, but I can not give you the name of the man. Mr. Ricxer. I think it is Dr. White. Dr. Mouter. I do not know. The only Dr. White I know of in Boston represents the State of Massachusetts at the Brighton yards. I always supposed that it was a State man that permitted these cat- tle to be killed instead of holding them under State quarantine. The Cuairman. Is it not a fact that the law of the State requires the killing of these cattle ? Mr. Ricker. I can not answer that. Mr. Hays. So far as I know. Are you certain that the State rep- resentative has not been there for the purpose of detecting anything in connection with tuberculosis? I am informed by Dr. Ellsworth here, who will testify in a few moments, that the killing is ordered by the Federal agent, and that the post-mortem is made by the Fed- eral agent. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Mr. Ricker. Mr Jones. If there is somebody here who has the facts let him testify. Let us get through with this. The Carman. We will hear Mr. Ellsworth. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 239 STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH W. ELLSWORTH. Mr. Exxsworrn. I do know that the Federal authorities have charge at the Brighton yards and work through the State authori- ties, and what is done there is this: The cattle are ordered to be killed by the Federal authorities, and are driven to the abattoir and killed. The cattle that go down to the abattoir are driven there by the Federal authorities. Mr. Jones. May I ask what happened to Mr. Ricker’s cattle that reacted to the tuberculin test, in general, before the Federal Gov- ernment took charge there? Mr. Extswortn. The State took charge of them. Mr. Jonss. And the State killed them? Mr. Extswortu. Yes. Mr. Jones. And the State paid for them? Mr. Extswortn. They paid for those that did not show lesions after being killed. Dr. Monter. As I understand, this same class of cattle have always gone to the abbatoir? Mr. Ricker. Yes. ‘ 5 ae Montsr. The State ordered them killed before the 1st of uly ? ce Exiswortu. Yes. Mr. Jones. You do not mean to say that the State would order them killed now? Mr. Ex.sworru. I do not think so. Mr. Jonus. If the State ordered them killed and paid for them before the Ist of July, you do not imagine that the State would order them killed now and wipe out the indemnity, do you? Dr. Mouter. I do not know. Mr. Jones. You do not imagine they would do that, do you? Dr. Mouter. I do not know; but whoever ordered them. killed before July 1 has, in my opinion, ordered them killed since July 1, and I feel certain no Federal inspector has overstepped his authority to that extent. The CuarrmMAn. Have you any authority to order them killed? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; we have not. Mr. Exasworrn. I know that on the 1st of July the State authori- ties stepped down and the Federal authorities stepped in, and they have been getting cattle just as before. . Dr. Mouter. Since the Federal authorities became associated with this work on the 1st of July the owners have not been paid for no-lesion reactors by the State. Whoever ordered them killed before probably did not have to order them since that time, because the procedure had become routine, and most dealers prefer slaughter to quarantine in these cases. r. ExuswortH. Only that the Federal authorities ordered them killed. Mr. Canpuer. If they were killed under the State law before the 1st of July, then after the Federal authorities took control, I take it, they were killed on whatever the Federal authorities found. Or were they killed under the State law, which does not permit them to remain in the State? 240 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Exisworrn. Before the 1st of July the State authorities took charge of these cattle and had them killed. The Cuairman. Thank you, Mr. Ellsworth. Mr. Canoter. If, prior to July 1, they were killed under the State law, then the State must evidently take the examination of the Fed- eral Government as to the existence of the disease, and the penalty is inflicted by the State. Mr. Jonzs. ‘Their argument is that the State repealed the prior law as to indemnity, but still continued to exercise the right to kill these cattle. I think that is unreasonable, and-I do not think that any State would do such a thing. r. Mouer. The only feature I know of that might have a bear- ing on this point is the fact that the Massachusetts State law is very stringent in regard to the bringing into the State of diseased cattle, and they would not allow cattle purchased in Massachusetts, and subsequently found tuberculous on the 60-day retest in another State, to be returned to Massachusetts, even though the Federal Government might permit it.. The Massachusetts State law prohibits any tuber- culous cattle coming into Massachusetts. Mr, Jonzs. If there is a State law of Massachusetts which pro- vides that where cattle do not have tuberculosis the owner should be reimbursed for the full value of the cattle—if there were such a Jaw I do not know and I do not say that there was such a law. If they repealed that law as to the indemnity and still kept the right to kill the cattle, do you not imagine that that would create such an uproar in the State that everybody would know about it? Dr. Monier. Yes; but your premise is wrong. There has been no law’repealed. This is an act of the chief of the department of animal industry in Boston, and his view, as he explained it to me, was this: That he was going to stop the shipment in there of dis- eased cattle from other States, and that he did not propose for Massachusetts to be a dumping ground for diseased cattle and then have the taxpayers of Massachusetts reimburse the breeders of other States. Mr. Jones. You mean there was no law of Massachusetts whereby the State paid for the cattle killed at Brighton? Dr. Moutzr. There has been no repeal of such a law. Mr. Jones. Was there such a law? Dr. Mouter. I do not know whether there was such a law or not. I know that since the Ist of July the chief of the Massachusetts department of animal industry decided that he would not pay. r. Jones. Under what authority does the State pay money if there is no law to pay it? Dr. Monuer. I did not say that there was no law, but there has been no repeal of such a law. Mr. Jonrs. Was there a law? Dr. Mouter. I do not know; but I repeat there was no repeal of a law. ’ Mr. Jonzs. Then the law is still in force? Dr. Mouter. J am-not arguing: Mr. Jonzs. If there was such a law and it has not. been repealed, it is still in force? Dr. Mouter. Certainly. _ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 241 Mr. Jonzs. Then why does not the State reimburse these fellows who bring their cattle into the State, which are killed under these circumstances ? Dr. Mouter. I shall endeavor to find out for you. Mr. Jonxs. Massachusetts is not liable, or they would pay it; is not that true? Dr. Mouter. I should think so. Mr. Jonzs. Yes. _ Mr. Hays. So far as the law is concerned, if I may clarify it a little, I am not familiar with all the statutes there, but I am and have been for the last 15 years a member of the State legislature, and I know there has been no law repealed. The legislature was in session until the 26th of last July, and is in session at the present time. We have a law that provides for the reimbursement for cattle such as I have described, when there are no lesions, and appropriation has been made annually for that purpose. There has been no repeal of a law. Mr. Jones. Why did the State refuse to pay ? Mr. Hays. Because we did not order the animals killed. That is the whole answer. The animals are ordered killed by the Federal authorities. ‘ The Cuarrman. Are they not ordered killed by virtue of law? Mr. Hays. Massachusetts law ? The Cuarrmay, Yes. Mr. Hays. I know of no law which would compel the killing of a cow that is affected by tuberculosis. Mr. Wiuson. I notice that a little over 40 per cent of the cattle that hhave been killed, as Mr. Ricker says, did not have any disease. What was the percentage of the cattle killed and found to be all right under the prior supervision by the State? P Mr. Hays. I have not the figures, but I think that what Dr. Mohler says is correct. Under State supervision, if I am correctly informed, a large number of the reactors were held for a retest, and again, if I am correctly informed, very frequently when a cow is subjected to a retest within a week or two weeks after the first test, if she does not react within a certain time, she is turned loose in the community ; so that I should say that the percentage of killing was less; how much less I do not know, but that it was considerably less. Mr. Wuson. This looks to me like a pretty big percentage of mistakes to make; does it not to you, Doctor? Dr. Monter. That is a larger percentage than we have in other places. We have a number of stockyards where the accuracy is 100 per cent; but I think that we can explain why the errors are more frequent at Brighton. The cattle there are mostly milk cows, and they are bagged up and fed high for a sales day. They are fixed up and put in fine condition so that they will bring good prices on sales day. : The Cuarrman. Are these cattle sold at auction? Mr. Ricxer. No, sir; at private sale. Mr. Canpier, Was this appropriation, made by the State, to pay for Massachusetts cattle? Mr. Hays. No, sir. Mr. Canpizr. That was to pay for any cattle? Mr. Hays. That is, to pay for an animal any time that our inspectors made a mistake. e settle for it. There would not be 164315—20——16 242 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. \ an appropriation made until 1920. Whether there will be one made next year or not, I do not know. I presume that if there is no State inspection there will be no State appropriation, but I am not certair as to that. The CuHairman. Do your State authorities desire to return to State inspection ? Mr. Hays. I presume that the people I represent would be satis- fied. How the State would feel about it, I do not know. I would be very glad to bring Mr. Howard down here, of the department of animal industry. The CHarrman. Dr. Mohler asked whether the people of Massa- chusetts objected to paying the losses on the cattle of other States, Mr. Hays. I never heard of any objection. I think Mr. Howard, of the department of animal industry, would be satisfied to go back. I do not believe there would be any objection on the part of the Commonwealth. I know there would be none on the part of the people I represent. The Gein Why was the transfer made from the State in- spection ? Be Dr. Mouter. Because Brighton was a public stockyards, where cattle were brought from all the States in the New England terri- tory. This all goes back, you know, to over a year-ago, when the court of appeals in Kansas City ruled that Missouri had no power to issue regulations with reference to bringing cattle from other States into Missouri that did not conform to the Federal regulations. As soon as that was done, the people of Missouri felt, inasmuch as this _-ruling rendered all of the Missouri regulations governing the im- portation of live stock ineffective, that it was necessary for the Government to protect the live stock of their State, and they wrote ‘to the Secretary. Senator Reed and several others, and Mr. Rubey also, indicated strongly that it was necessary to protect Missouri. We could not protect Missouri without protecting the other 47 States; and as the result of what the court did with reference to this case in Missouri, the Secretary on the 1st of July issued regulations prohibiting the movement interstate of any dairy or breeding cattle unless the tuber- culin test had been applied. In order to facilitate the movement and to prevent any hardships to shippers, he stationed men around in the stockyards, and Brighton was one of the yards where he put men, in order to accommodate the owners of cattle. The Cuarrman. These cows are subject to Federal control while in interstate commerce ? Mr. Hays. Yes. The Cuairman. The Government has men in Massachusetts and in other States? Mr. Hays. Yes. ; Mr. Ricker. May I ask, Dr. Mohler, whether the cattle there are killed that are condemned under your inspection? ; Dr. Mouter. As a rule they are slaughtered. Mr. Ricker. Under whose order? Dr. Monuer. Either the owner or the State. There is no order issued by the bureau. There is usually a request from the owner to get them slaughtered promptly. They could be shipped back to the State of origin in case they are pure-bred animals. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 243 The Cuairman. Cattle might be required to be examined before coming from these other States? Dr. Mouzer. Yes; we are only doing this as a matter of accommo- dation. — ; » Mr. Ricker. Mr. Chairman, we appreciate this accommodation very much, but we do not appreciate this shock. Right here, August 11, I had 12 animals condemned by this bureau and 7 of them proved to have been sound and all right. That entailed a loss to me of over $1,200 on those cattle. I had animals in there, grade animals, for $250 apiece, that did not bring: me over $35. Dr. Mouter. Would the State of Massachusetts be willing to have cattle shipped in from Vermont and New Hampshire and other States, found to be tuberculous, killed, and then the State of Massa- chusetts pay for them? Mr. Ricker. No, sir; and we have never asked for that. The State paid when they made mistakes—just such mistakes as the Fed- eral Government is now making. When they killed sound animals, then they were willing to pay in full. In the case that has been spoken of here I had that animal sold for $125. The Federal man— or the State man before the Government took it over—would take that sale for the price of the animal. If the animal was not sold, the agent of the bureau would come around and fix the price of that animal. Mr. Jacoway. Jt is against the law to ship tuberculous cattle in interstate commerce ? Mr. Ricker. Yes. Mr. Jacoway. Is it not a great privilege to allow the shipment of cattle into Brighton market in this way ? Mr. Ricker. Yes. Dr. Mouter. Of course, it would cost considerable money to test these cattle, 75 to 125 every week, in Vermont and New Hampshire. Mr. Ricwer. Yes. All that we are getting at is these cattle that prove sound. That is what we want to impress on this committee’s minds. . Mr. Wizson. Does it not appear to you, Doctor, that your inspec- tion there is faulty ? Dr. Monter. I believe we have made‘a number of unpreventable errors there, and I think there is a great deal of merit’ in what Mr. Hays and Mr. Ricker have stated. I should like to see it so that when we make these errors we could reimburse the owners of the animals, especially where no lesions are found. Mr. Witson. I think that the inspectors there should be inspected as much as the cattle. That is the way it looks to me. Mr. Jones. What is the opinion of the department as to the gen- eral proposition of making no reimbursement if the cattle are found to be.tuberculous and full reimbursement where the cattle are found not to be tuberculous? I think the owners ought to stand the loss if they are tuberculous. Mr. Ricker. The owners are willing to. Mr. Hays. You understand that we do not object to that? Mr. Jonzs. Yes; I am asking Dr. Mohler. Dr. Mouter. My general opinion is that in the work of tubercu- losis eradication we would not make as much progress if we elim- 244 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. inated the indemnity. I think it is the wiser policy for us to con- tinue the indemnity in the tuberculosis eradication work for some time to come. I think Prof. Smith made the point this morning that it isa great encouragement to a young man who has a large percentage of infection in his herd to know that he is going to get something for those animals that are found to be tuberculous. Mr. Jonrs. Yes; and would it not come about the same if it were not tubercular ? Dr. Mounier. No. The amount of unpreventable error onthe farm is only about 5 per cent. The amount of these errors in the Brighton yards, according to our figures, is 25 per cent. The error in Chicago and Kansas City and some of these other yards is far less than what the Brighton figures have been. The only way that I can explain the great number of no-lesion animals found there, after reacting to the tuberculin test, is just as I have stated, that these animals are all dairy cattle, and they are being forced and bagged up in order to make a good appearance for sale. They are bagged up, fed highly, and pampered, in order to make the very best showing on these two sales days. Mr. Jonxs. There is no Federal legislation whereby the Govern- ment. could reimburse these men for the losses where the cattle are found to be tuberculous? Dr. Mouturr. No, sir. Mr. Jonzs. The only remedy would be by additional legislation ? Dr. Mouter. Yes. . Mr. McLaveu tn of Michigan. I am very sorry, indeed, to hear of this faulty inspection by the Federal authorities, because this morn- ing we were led to believe that the Federal inspection was the only one that could be relied on, and therefore it was necessary to have a Federal appropriation. ; Dr. Mouter. I think that the inspection is more competent than is indicated by the figures. I think Mr. Ricker will admit that the results are no worse since the Federal inspection began than when the State had entire control of the inspection. The difference is that we do not pay any money to Mr. Ricker, and he is objecting because we go net reimburse him for the no-lesion reactors, whereas the State id. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Mr. Ricker and Mr. Hays both said the percentage of mistakes was less under State inspection than under Federal inspection. Dr. Mouter. Have you figures, Mr. Ricker, to prove that? Mr. Ricker. I have not. Dr. Mouter. That is not the point you are making, as I under- stand, is it? Mr. Ricker. Not at all. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. I inquired what the percentage was under State inspection as compared with what the percentage was under Federal inspection, and I believe they said they thought it was less under State inspection, but they said they did not have the figures. eDr. Mouser. There were two tests permitted under the State in- spection. An animal was injected on Monday, and if she reacted she could then be reinjected on the following Monday. But you AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 245 never get the same results the second time as the first time, so it has become almost universally accepted that “once a reactor, always a reactor.” Mr. Ricker. May I ask Dr. Mohler a question? I have 20 animals tested in Vermont to-day, and I will bring them down to Brighton next Tuesday, and you will not accept the gentleman’s test that you approved of a month ago, so you go to work and test those animals on that shipment within less than a week. Your men go right to ore and do that week after week. How are you going to get by that ¢ Dr. Mouter. I do not know of any man in Vermont who has been approved by Commissioner Brigham and O. K’d by the bureau whose tests we do not accept after the cattle reach Brighton. Naturally if the charts have been improperly or falsely prepared, or prepared by a man not approved by the bureau, we could not accept them. Mr. Ricxer. I will hand you a few cases. Mr. Jones. We are here on this appropriation bill, which is a very different matter. This thing can only be cured by new legisla- tion. This is more like the trial of a lawsuit. I suggest that we go on with the matter of this appropriation bill. The Cuarrman. Were you through, Mr. Hays? Mr. Hays. I think I might suggest a thought. In talking it over I thought I had prepared a new bill, but it was suggested to me that an amendment could be made to your act. I am not familiar with your practice here, but was told that an amendment could be made so that a part of that $500,000 which is now appropriated for that “purpose could be used. The Cuamman. It would be new legislation, and subject to a point of order, but if it had sufficient merit the point of order might not be raised. That would be the quickest way to handle it, though I am not sure. We will have to locate the responsibility. If Dr. Mohler will locate the person responsible for this destruction of property, and also ascertain what the ultimate cost will be, I think that will help to clear the matter up. It would probably, cost more to take care of this phase than it does to take care of the eradication. Mr. Hays. Assuming that there were 131 cattle, the total amount. involved would not exceed $20,000. The Cuarrman. In Boston? Mr. Hays. In Boston; so that the aggregate amount could not be large. It is large to the individual, but not as a. Federal matter. The Cuamman. The remedy, of course, would be to have the in- spection made before you ship in interstate commerce. Then, it would be up to the State to meet the Federal Government on a 50-50 plan. After it passes the State line the department has no discretion in the matter. 3 Mr. Hays. The answer to that is that they retest them at Brighton in most instances. They have the right, and they come down there with the papers and they retest them. The CHarrman. You mean the Federal Government? Mr. Hays. The Federal Government; yes, sir. The Cuarrman. They would not go back on the test made in the State? . Mr. Hays. If the cattle come from outside of the State, they test them before they leave in their home State. They test them by ap- 4 246 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. proved veterinarians, and when they get down there the State tests them again. _The Cuairman. Under the law they would have to be tested ‘pre- vious to shipment. They might be entitled to reimbursement before the animals entered into certain limits, but, as I undérstand it, it is simply a matter of convenience. It is very unfortunate, because these gentlemen should be reimbursed; I think we all appreciate that. We are not sure, however, as to the responsibility for the killing. Of course, the Government is in a way responsible for errors made in the inspection, and, if it is possible to improve on that, it is a very important thing and it onze to be done. The committee will take the matter under consideration, and if we can find a way out, we will do so. Mr. Houtcutnson. I want to ask about this particular cow. Do I nan Mr. Ricker, that the cow Mr. Hays spoke of was your cow ? Mr. Ricrer. Yes, sir. Mr. Hurcurinson. You were offered $125? = Mr. Ricker. I had her sold for that. Mr. Hurcurnson. You lost all control of it and had to take $32? Mr. Ricxer. Yes. That was one case in 43. ate Horcuinson. You had nothing to say as to how it should be sold? Mr. Ricker. Not a word. Mr. Hurcuinson. And the hide, too? Mr. Ricker. That amount includes the hide and meat. Mr. Hourcuinson. It brought more than $32, did it not? Mr. Ricxer. It did not in our market. The hide brought about 25 or 28 cents per pound at that time. Mr. Hurcurnson. Do you know anything about what the animal dressed ? Mr. Ricker. I have the papers at home giving that information. Mr. Hutcurnson. You have those papers? Mr. Riocxer. Yes, sir. Mr. Hurcuinson. They were given to you? Mr. Ricxer. The slaughterhouse where they were slaughtered sent me a certificate of the slaughter of the animal and a check for $32. Mr. Hays. I think it would be very interesting to the committee to see those papers. Mr. Ricker. I can send plenty of them in. Mr. Smiru. I just want to ask one question of Dr. Mohler. Is it safe to assume that if no lesions are found, the animal can be declared free from tuberculosis? In other words, is it not true that the ordi- nary Government inspection of the tuberculous carcass is really a general and not a special examination, and that if the carcass were dissected which, of course, would destroy the carcass, we would fre- quéntly find tuberculous lesions where they are not found in our Government inspections. Dr. Mouter. That is true. Mr. Smiru. Therefore it is not safe to assume where there are no lesions on an animal, that it has not tuberculosis? Dr. Monter. You understand, Mr. Chairman, that our inspectors in their meat-inspection work do not go in to determine whether the carcass has any little nodule or not. They endeavor to determine AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 247 ‘whether a carcass is fit or unfit for food. If they found one little tuberculous nodule, this would show why the animal reacted to the tuberculin test, but it would not determine that the carcass was unfit -for food. It would still be fit for food. So the Government meat- Inspection work is not intended as proof for the accuracy of tubercu- lin, at least it is not practicable to make it that satisfactory, although we try to get our inspectors to make a most careful examination when these reacting cattle come in, as accurately as they can without de- stroying the meat, and as a result of that work they find more small and localized nodules when they know they are working on reactors. ‘They go through a great many more lymph glands and cut the lung, ‘liver, spleen, etc., into smaller slices. The result of that closer ob- servation means little from a meat-inspection standpoint, because ‘the carcass can be passed for food even though it may have more localized lesions than are required to make the animal react to the tuberculin test. The Cuarrmgn. There is a certain deduction. Dr. Moutuer. Yes, sir. Mr. Witson. How many inspectors have you at this yard? Dr. Mouter. On the tuberculin inspection ? Mr. Witson. How many inspectors have made these inspections of these 318 cattle? Dr. Monier. We have about three men now at Brighton stock- yard and the State has an equal number. “ Mr. Wiison. Do you know whether the same men made all these amistakes or not? Dr. Monten. No. We investigated this several months ago, back in September. The Federal and State inspectors have all been mak- ing these tests, and they all average about the same; as I said be- fore, the State had about the same experience. The stockyard is a pretty difficult place for making a tuberculin test. The animals are coming in from more or less lengthy trips on the trains into un- familiar quarters, they have new attendants, they are watered out. of ‘buckets, and it is a great strain on these dairy cattle, some of which ‘have just calved or are about to calve, to have the tuberculin tests applied under such conditions. Mr. McLaveuun of Michigan. The best thing to do is to require ‘an inspection in the case before they are shipped out. Dr. Mouter. That is what I said at the beginning. The solution of this problem, to my mind, is to have certificates issued before the cattle leave the State of origin. The Cuarrman. Doctor, will you investigate the other point, as to the responsibility for the destruction of the animals, and furnish the committee with the data? Dr. Monurr. Yes, sir; I shall be glad to do that and insert a state- ment in the record. The Cuairman. It will be some time yet before we report the bill. “We will give it further consideration. Mr. Hays. Would it be agreeable, Mr. Chairman, if I assisted in sending such information as I can obtain? The Cuarrman. We will be very glad to have it. Mr. Hays. And if you saw fit, we might bring the chief of the ‘Department of Animal Industry here in person and let him testify 248 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. a have the value of his testimony so that we could come here with it. The CuairMan. We will probably be in session for several weeks. . We will be glad to hear you at any time, so as to get the matter straightened out. We would like to have all the facts. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. The chairman has asked Dr. Mohler to get the facts as to just how the business is transacted there. You might take it up with Dr. Mohler and find out just where the responsibility rests. : STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE— Continued. Dr. Mouter. At your request, Mr. Chairman, I beg to submit the following statement regarding the tuberculin testing of cattle for interstate shipment at the Brighton public stockyards, after con- sultation with Dr. E. A. Crossman, inspector in charge at Boston, Mass. : ‘ Prior to July 1, 1919, the tuberculin testing of cattle at Brighton was con- -ducted under the supervision of the Massachusetts Department of Animal In- dustry. On this date regulation 7 of B. A. I. Order 263 became effective. This regulation required that all cattle moved interstate for dairying or breed- ing purposes, unless consigned to recognized public stockyards, must be tuber-- culin tested prior to shipment by an authorized veterinarian of the State or bureau. Accordingly, a conference was held at Boston, where representatives from all the New England States were present, and it was unanimously decided ‘that in justice to the shippers of milk cows into the State of Massachusetts that a public stockyard should be established at Boston, Mass. In order to accommodate the shippers of cattle who for many years had been making consignments to these yards for weekly sales, the bureau agreed to establish a public stockyard at this point in cooperation with the State officials. The commissioner of the Massachusetts department of animal industry, Dr. Lester H. Howard, proposed to the bureau that the State should furnish an equal number of veterinarians or lay inspectors to those assigned by the bureau. All cattle that passed the tuberculin test were to be tagged with a State tag bearing a serial number and furnished by the State of Massachusetts. These propositions were accepted by the bureau and have been constantly in effect since the establishment of inspection July 1, 1919, at which time four bureau and four State veterinarians and law inspectors were employed. As the number of cattle to be tuberculin tested decreased the number of veteri- narians and lay inspectors decreased accordingly, but, on the same basis, i. e., one State employee to each bureau inspector. At the present time three bureau inspectors and three State inspectors are employed at the yards. Prior to July 1, 1919, the State of Massachusetts paid the owner of an animal which reacted to the tuberculin test and where no lesions could be found on post- mortem examination, the full amount of the appraisal. The State department of animal industry was at that time, however, making a charge of 25 cents per animal for applying the tuberculin tests and the money collected from these fees was used to pay for the no-lesion reactors. At the present time no charge is made for these tests at the Brighton yards, and no payment is made for no-lesion reactors, At no time have Federal inspectors “ ordered” the reacting cattle killed, nor have such cattle been “slaughtered by order” of the Government. The supervision of these yards was taken over by the bureau as stated above, in cooperation with the Massachusetts department of animal industry, commencing with the weekly test of July 7, 1919. As a result of investiga- tions made prior to assuming this supervision, it appeared to bureau repre- sentatives that the chief objection, if it can be so designated, to the work as it was conducted prior to July 1, 1919, was in the retesting of cattle which had apparently given typical reactions to the tuberculin test. The limitations of tuberculin as a diagnostic agent are well known, Chief among these limi- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 249 tations is the fact that an animal which has once been given a typical reaction frequently fails to react a second time even though a very large dose of tuber- culin is injected. In connection with the testing at the Brighton yards, it must also be pointed out that the cattle are not presented in as nearly normal conditions as is re- quired to secure the best results from the application of tuberculin. Investi- gations made by the bureau inspectors disclosed the facts that the cattle are improperly watered, are not milked out during the application of the test, are improperly fed or are fed too heavy a ration, and it might also be pointed out that the majority of the animals presented for test are those which have recently calved and in many instances have systemic disturbances which make for unsatisfactory results. These improper conditions have been pointed out to one of the principal cattle dealers, Mr. W. A. Ricker, St. Johnsbury, Vt., in bureau letters of Aug- ust 18, August 20, and October 9, 1919. The present knowledge of the bureau is that no steps have been taken to better the conditions. As a comparison between the work carried on under supervision at these yards and that conducted on the farms in the accredited herd work, the fol- lowing tables ‘are worthy of note: Subcutaneous tuberculin tests at Brighton stockyards, under the supervision of Dr. E. A. Crossman (July 1 to Nov. 1, 1919). Number of animals tested 2, 968 Number of reactors. 832 Number of reactors showing no visible lesions_________________________ 105 Number of reactors showing visible lesions 217 Percentage showing no visible lesions. = 32.3 Percentage showing visible lesions 67.7 Percentage of cattle reacting 14. 0 Subcutaneous tuberculin tests on farms under the accredited herd plan, under. the supervision of Dr. HE. A. Crossman (July 1, to Nov. 1, 1919). . Number of animals tested 7, 724 Number of reactors. 237 Number of reactors showing no visible lesions__________________________ 8 Number of reactors showing visible lesions. 159 Percentage showing no visible lesions : 4.7 Percentage showing visible lesions - 95.3 Percentage of cattle reacting. 28.0 This work in both fields is under the supervision of Dr. Crossman, inspector in charge, and is largely conducted by the same employees. It will be observed that under the accredited herd plan the amount of visible lesions found in cattle tested on farms is 95.3 per cent, while the amount of visible lesions found in cattle at the Brighton Stockyards is only 67.7 per cent. There seems to he no reason why such a wide variance of efficiency should be established in the two lines of work, other than those caused by the improper conditions under which these cattle at the yards have been tested. In addition to the regular testing of cattle at the Brighton yards, it has been necessary to occasionally apply a retest to shipments of cattle that have been previously tested and accompanied by a suspicious test chart, in order to ascertain whether the practicing veterinarians approved to do this kind of work were conducting same in accordance with the regulations of the bureau. These retests have disclosed a number of tuberculous animals that had been classed as free from this disease by the practicing veterinarians applying the tests at the point of origin. It has been found necessary to disapprove one veterina- rian for inefficient work, which was only possible to ascertain by applying ° retests on shipment when they arrived at the Brighton yards. As a solution of this matter of indemnifying owners for cattle that react to the tuberculin test and fail to show lesions on post-morten examination, it is suggested that the drovers request the original owners to sign an’ agreement for the cooperative tuberculin testing of their herds. This is being done by a few of the drovers at the present time, with the result that when reactors are 250 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. found, whether or not post morten lesions are revealed, the drover refers back to the original owner through the live-stock sanitary commissioner.’ The en- tire herd is then tested and the owner indemnified partially for the reactors. ‘This method is employed in the State of Vermont. The live-stock sanitary com- ‘missioner of the State of New Hampshire has agreed to pay indemnities on this same basis. While the live-stock sanitary commissioner of the State of Maine has not gone on record, it is felt that such a plan would be approved in that State. The bureau would then pay its proportion on such animals condemned, not to exceed $25 on a grade animal or $50 on a pure-breed animal. _ Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Under this tuberculosis item is the proviso “That the Secretary of Agriculture may, in his discretion, under such rules and regulations as he may prescribe, permit cattle which have been shipped for breeding or feeding purposes from one State, Territory, or the District of Columbia to another State, Terri- tory, or the District of Columbia, and which have reacted to the tuberculin test subsequent to such shipment to be reshipped in inter- state commerce to the original owner.” Some serious difficulty has arisen on that, as shown in this Boston case. Do you think that ought to stand? Has it proven wise to put that into the law. Dr. Mouter. That clause has proved very satisfactory and the Sec- retary has given permission in certain regulations, for only pure- bred cattle to be returned to the State of origin. Almost every State now has a requirement that cattle coming from an outside State must be subjected to a retest 60 days after the animals come into the State of destination. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. But he may permit them all to come without the testing ? ‘Dr. Moutzr. Not unless they are consigned to public stockyards. The Secretary may, in his discretion under the law which you have just read and under the rules which he has prescribed, permit such cattle as may have reacted to the tuberculin test, to be reshipped to the State whence they came. Mr. McLavecutiin of Michigan. Have you been acting entirely in keeping within this act in permitting such cattle as this cattle dealer spoke of that were not brought in for breeding or feeding purposes, but as milch cows? Dr. Moutrr. Yes, sir; we have conformed entirely to that act. These milch cows are for breeding purposes as well as for the dairy. That animal of Mr. Ricker was not returning to the State of origin and he made no such request. This provision here is to allow an animal, that came from one State and then found tuberculous in another State, to be returned to the State of origin. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. But it was under that portion of the act that you permitted these cattle to come from different States to Boston without being inspected in the State from which they came. You permitted them to come to Brighton without being in- spected and you were only authorized ‘to return those to the State from which they came, those that were brought in for breeding or feeding purposes. Dr. Mouter. Mr. McLaughlin, pardon me, but you are mistaken in your interpretation of this paragraph. This paragraph has noth- ing at all to do with the bringing of that animal from Vermont into Brighton steckyards. That cow was supposedly healthy. Nobody AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 251 knew she was diseased until she got to Brighton stockyards and re- acted to the tuberculin test. If she were to be returned to Vermont this paragraph would obtain. When that animal was shipped, as I said ‘before, from Vermont to Brighton stockyards nobody knew whether she was going to react or not. - Mr. McLaucutrn of Michigan. No, you never do. Dr. Mouter. That is true. Mr. McLavucHiry of Michigan. But when you were talking to Mr. Ricker and Mr. Hays about their case, you said the animal could have been reshipped to the State from which it came. Dr. Mounter. Yes; under this paragraph. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Under this paragraph? Dr. Monter. As a pure-bred Holstein she could have been re- turned to Vermont under our regulations. Mr. McLaucuuin of Michigan. It was not brought in for breed- ing or feeding purposes. Dr. Mouuer. All these dairy cows are brought in for breeding purposes. They are dairy cows and are intended for breeding pur- poses as well as for dairy purposes. A lot of these animals are sold as springers, and as soon as they freshen, they are again bred. Mr. McLaveu ttn of Michigan. You are mictaken about that. Mr. Ricker said he had 75 men in different parts of the country buying cattle for him, and evidently he bought cattle that would sell on the market at Brighton. He was bringing in breeding cattle or feeding cattle. He was bringing in anything in the shape of cattle that would sell on the Brighton market. Dr. Mouter. For what purpose ? Mr. McLavucuurn of Michigan. Any purpose. Dr. Mouter. No, sir; that is a dairy cow market, and not a feeder or fat stock market, Mr. McLaughlin. They don’t have.any and every kind of cattle that you refer to. It is a dairymen’s market for the New England States. Those cows are either springers or fresh cattle. I have been familiar with this market for 20 years. The Cuatrman. If they are shipped in for slaughter they can not be returned. Dr. Monter. No, sir. The Cuairman. If shipped as dairy cows or as breeders or feed- ers, they may be returned ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; if pure bred. The Cuarrman. All the dairy cows would come in under this term “breeder ”? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; a great many of them would come in un- der “springers,” and others under “ fresh cows.” Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Does this work well? ; Dr. Mouuzr. It has worked very satisfactorily because we have allowed it to be applied only to pure-bred animals, and the reason I say it has worked so well is because so many States have this pro- vision for retesting after 60 days. For instance, pure-bred cows that have gone into Montana from Towa have been retested 60 days after they were tested in Iowa and have reacted. It may be that these cows are worth little to the man in Montana, but are worth a good deal if returned to the original owner in Iowa, 252 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. or the State of origin, for breeding purposes. A gentleman who spoke this morning referred to a $17,000 bull in Illinois that re- acted 60 days after shipping from Oklahoma. He asked this morn- ing about sending that bull back to Oklahoma, because the man that bought him in Ifnois don’t know how he can finance a diseased bull. He is a young man who can not take care of him under the system of segregation. . --Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. But you say you permit return only in cases of pure-bred animals. Here are a lot of them brought im here not pure bred; shouldn’t they have been inspected at the nen! line instead of being brought to Brighton .and being tested there? _ Dr. Monter. ‘There are no facilities for inspection at the State line—no yard or station or anything of the kind. Here is a carload of 22 animals; you can’t put them out in a snowstorm this time of the year at the State line between Vermont and Massachusetts. They have to go to a place where facilities for sheltering, watering, feeding, and testing are available. Mr. Rusery. The solution of the question would be to test them at the point of origin or shipment. Dr. Moutrr. That is the proper thing, and that is what I sug- gested to Mr. Ricker. He said as he left the stand that he is having less trouble now than in July, because he is having these approved veterinarians do the testing in the State of origin and then shipping the cows to Brighton with proper tuberculin charts, which removes the necessity of having them tested in the stockyards. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. Massachusetts has permitted those cattle to come into that State, and in all probability they are going to stay there. That being true, where is the interest of the Federal Government in them? : ; Dr. Monter. We have no power if they are going to stay in the State. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Why do you go to inspect them? Dr. Moutrr. Because they are public yards handling cattle in interstate movement. In case the owner reshipped diseased cows to New York, Pennsylvania, New Jersey or Connecticut, from Brighton yards, our interest would come in very strongly. We wouldn’t let diseased cows go out of the Brighton yards for shipment interstate. We haven’t the power of course to prevent them from being shipped to any other place within the State. The Cuairman. What is the question in the Kansas City case? Dr. Monter. That was the question involving the right of the State to make regulations independent of the Federal regulations. It was with reference to a shipment of cattle coming by railroad from Towa into Missouri, and the State of Missouri had a regulation pro- hibiting the importation of cattle without a health certificate to protect the livestock of Missouri from foot and mouth disease. The State prosecuted the railroad company for transporting the cattle into Missouri in violation of its regulation, and the State won in the lower court. The higher court, however, reversed the decision and ruled that the State had no power to prescribe regulations in conflict with Federal law, and that the Federal statutes exclusively govern interstate shipments. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 2538 ane CuarrMan. They can only be stopped by the Federal Govern- _ ment! ‘ . : Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Harrison. Did you call the committee’s attention to the fact that we suggested the insertion of the word “hereafter” there so as to avoid the necessity of an annual repetition of this discussion ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; it is coveréd in this paragraph. Mr. Harrison. It is just a question of shortening the bill. The Cuarrman. Let us get this matter of responsibility for slaugh- tering the reacting animals out of the way. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. Yes; we don’t want to have to stand responsible for the killing of all those cattle. Dr. Mouter. The gveat trouble is in opening the door to all grade as well as pure bred cattle. It is going to allow every little Tom, Dick, and Harry all over the United States, after they have found they have got reacting cattle, to return them and there will be a great deal of trouble for the States to see that they are kept in quarantine. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You can be quite sure they will not return the cattle, but if you give permission to do it you avoid the necessity of killing it and incurring the liability. Mr. Jones. If you do not permit them to return it, the only thing to do is to kill it, but if you permit them to return it we won’t be responsible ? Dr. Mouter. Yes; but I think the better way of handling this is to allow these animals to come into the Brighton yards as they have done and if they react, put a button in their ear to show they are reactors and then let Massachusetts do whatever she wishes to do with them. Mr. Jones. You simply test them and say, “Do what you please with them” ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. If we do the testing at Brighton and there are any reactors, let the local authorities at Brighton take such intrastate action as they deem proper. Mr. Jonzs. If the facts are as Mr. Ricker stated here to-day, I don’t see how the Government can avoid the liability there. Dr. Mouser. You can take my word for it that our man there never ordered the slaughter of those animals. The State has been doing this ever since the days of the old cattle bureau of Massa- chusetts. ; Mr. Jonzs. You see, if we start in on a case like that and the Government loses out, you will have lawsuits here at the rate of $20,000 a year. an Mouter. I am satisfied that none of our men ordered the cattle illed. Mr. McLaventtn of Michigan. Suppose you found that the cow did react. Before the State of Massachusetts would assume the responsibility for killing her they would order her examined by their authorities, too, wouldn’t they ? Dr. Mouter.. Yes, sir; they might, but they don’t cooperate that way. Mr. McLavcuun of Michigan. And suppose your conclusion dif- fered from the conclusion of the authorities of Massachusetts, what then ? 254 AGRICULTURE ‘APPROPRIATION BILL. s Dr. Mouter. We wouldn’t allow that cow to go into interstate shipment. ‘ oe McLavcuuin of Michigan. You have a way of preventing that ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Wouldn’t that be the way to do it? Dr. Mouterr. I think that is much better than opening wide the door to all kinds and conditions of cattle. i McLaveuun of Michigan. And not order your men to slay them ¢ . Dr. Moutzr. I don’t think they have done it. The gentlemen merely thought that was the way it was handled, but when I asked them tow it was done before the 1st of July they stated it was the same procedure as prevails now. We have a very fine man of long experience in charge at Boston, and I am satisfied he is too wise to order the slaughter of those animals. However, we can stop him if he is doing so. (Thereupon, at 5.30 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 o’clock Thursday morning, December 11, 1919.) CoMMITYEE ON AGRICULTURE, House or RepresentarTIves, Thursday, December 11, 1919. The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., Hon. Gilbert N. Haugen (chairman) presiding. The Cuarrman. Dr. Mohler, you may proceed. Bureau or Animau Inpustry—Continued. FURTHER STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICUL- TURE. _ Dr. Mouter. Gentlemen, last evening when you adjourned the hearings we were discussing the tuberculosis item. I think we have had a very complete discussion of this particular item. The Cuarrman. We went over that thoroughly yesterday. Unless there is something you desire to add to what was said yesterday, we will pass it. Dr. Mouter. Here is a statement that I might put in the record indicating the amount of indemnity and expenses that have been in- curred. Several.members requested this information. (The statement referred to follows:) AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 255: Claims recorded in the Tuberculosis Eradication Division for indemnity for cattle slaughtered from July 1, 1919, to Dec. 5, 1919. Average Average Number |, Total | mount | Total | amount of State. ofcattle, | 2mount of appraisal amount of salvage appraisal. per head, salvage. per head. Connecticut.....-...2.20.0eceeeeeeee nsec eens 25 | $2,310.00] $92.40] $664.15 $26. 56- District of Columbia.............2.02.. eee eee ee 3 300.00 100.00 105,50 35.16 Idaho 59 | 15,834.00 268.37 2,401.59 40.70 9 1,600.00 177.77 799.81 88. 86- 98 24) 905.00 254.13 5, 544.68 56.57 478 140; 095.00 293.08 | 26,243.75 54.90 65 16, 135.00 248, 23 3,333.26 51.28 46 9 515.00 206. 48 1, 734.10 37.69° 19 2 520. 00 132. 63 593.99 31.26 270 27; 500. 00 101.85 11,676.30 43.24 85 | 21,155.00 248, 88 4,481.66 52.72 286 | 24,830.00 86.81 | 11,723.51 40.99" 26 6,351.80 244,30 1,465.75 56.37 174 | 15,325.34 88.07 3,695.52 21.23 109 | 26,757.00 245.47 5,622.42 51.58 90 | 25,645.00 284.98 4, 522. 85 50. 25, 155 | 21,291.00 137.36 7,487.17 48.30 North Carolina. . 98 | 16,227.50 165.58 4, 207.10 42,92 North Dakota. 30 2,200.00 73.33 1,279.01 42.63: Ohio 83 | 12,645.00 152.34 3,968.10 47.80 99 | 24,390.00 246.36 3, 763.40 38.01 23 3, 655.00 158.91 724,21 31.48 128 | 35,855.00 280.11 6, 545.20 51.13 28 3,130.00 111.78 1,279.53 45. 69 158 | 39,190.00 248.03 7,618.44 48.18 2 125.00 33.60 16.380 488 | 50,947.00 104.39 | 10,985.61 22.51 38 5,070.00 113.42 80. 96 22.92" 225 | 27,775.00| 123.44] 7,237.66 32.16: 45 | 5,200.00) 115.55] 1,222.75 27.17 TOGA wsc-csierecreesi oeamne wemreteersrins aisluatsierate 3,442 | 608, 603. 64 176.82 | 141, 836.58 41.20: 5 Average Average Vee Total | amount | Total | amount Stat appraised amount of | of State | amount of | of J ed- ale: ae rend |, State indem- | Federal | eral in- salvage. indemnity.| nity indemnity. | demnity Be. per nead, | per head. COMME CHIC oc ratiewiecenescs aceeinneed SoG tiere ates $1,645.85 | $1, 104.84 $44.19 $541.01 $21. 64 District of Columbia.............----22----005+ 194.50 |......-.. iets | eee sien 60. 84 20. 28 Idaho... 37.82 2, 231. 96 37.82 Tlinois 25. 44 228. 96 25. 44 Indian: 57.21 | 3,883.54 39. 62 Iowa. 53.34 | 17,986.47 37.62 Kansas 82.36 2,479.81 38.15 Kentucky 74.45 | 1,452.02 31.56 aine..... 47.42 477.86 25.15 Maryland.. 19. 53 5, 274.81 19. 53 Michigan 85. 11 3, 845.12 45. 23 Minnesota 34.53 | 3, 292.03 11.51 Missouri 34. 69 902. 01 34. 69 Montana. 61. 23 3, 608. 59 20. 73 Nebraska. 38. 57 4, 205, 17 38. 57 New York. 95. 98 3, 666, 02 40. 73 Nevada...... 38.31 3, 636. 65 23.46 North Carolina. . 28. 82. 2,824.72 28. 82 North Dakota 20. 46 307. 00 10. 23 LOS Soe Ges 71.45 2,726. 05 32.84 Oklahoma 104.17 4,943.79 49.93 Oregon 41.44 755. 84 32. 86 Pennsylvania. 55. 28 4, 859. 51 37.96 South Carolina. . 22. 02 616. 83 22. 02 South Dakota. 62. 48 5, 245. 24 33.19 ) | 36. 06 72.18 36. 06 Vermont 51.48 | 13,029.30 26, 69 a An) gare) a Washington. .....-..--0----+0e eee eee eee eee : : , 297. West Eton bs deeb RiselasGieiain ea meeeeeereeee 3, 977. 25 2,540. 14 56. 44 1, 192.95 26. 51 TT Ob al ivascciessese saranda cease Ranoedaedeees 456, 256.61 | 170, 405. 52 49.50 | 100, 474.52 29.19 256 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. I wish you would put in a statement giving the number of applications on file that have been made to the depart- ment. Dr. Monier. I will furnish that. (The statement referred to follows:) Progress of the tuberculosis eradication campaign, Nov. 15, 1919. Under super- Passed one suc- | On waiting list sic Accredited. cessful test. to be tested, States. : Herds.| Cattle. | Herds.| Cattle. | Herds.| Cattle. | Herds.| Cattle, Alabama. .nsccssecsses ches 198 7,830 21 Arkansas.......- 38 1,039 |..-..... Colorado. ... 5 T26! | esis ogi Connecticut. 58 2, 737 6 Delaware........ 18 800 4 34 817 7 562 9,117 |..-....- 456 12, 602 6 4 103 4 422 10, 332 21 324 5, 497 54 615 | 20,291 1 353 | 16,248 11 293 7, 349 8 571 | 12,158 4 852 10, 450 100 405 7,542 193 5, 651 6 1 22) |eeaeoers 27 710 2 42 2,290 6 200 6, 369 9 1,027 10, 022 52 16,535 |. 110 854 | 15,736 64 54 2,364 |........ Pennsylvania. 643 9,978 47 Rhode Island.. 24 393 2 ‘South Carolina 203 7,321 17 South Dakota. 215 4, 863 6 : 9, 386 35 723. 15 23,035 32 25,210 263 2, 636 8 16, 551 38 BG: ojrceceie! 367,239 | 1,355 29, 593 24 612 | 2,232 28, 718 12 351 24, 432 12 389] 1,271] 12,733 12 351 Grand total............ 21,447 | 421,264 | 1,391 36,205 | 16,341 | 232,874 | 3,257 80, 184 = The Cuarrman. We ought to have a complete statement in refer- ence to that. That is one of the important items. Dr. Mouter. I will also submit a list of maximum State indemni- ties. Both Mr. Jones and Mr. Hutchinson réquested some informa- tion about indemnities, so I had this list made up last evening. (The matter referred to follows:) AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 257 Statement showing maximum indemnity paid by States for tuberculosis cattle destroyed and approximate amount of State funds for fiscal year 1920. Maximum indem- Approvimate nity. State funds State. available for - coe ure work, fiscai bred. Grade. year 1920. AID GIG sas nncacpuces tomes enwuke nenenesueeeee an Wi Sun uenNGeN kee ceesd q q $5, 000 Arizona. ........ et SDA ahslajwiaibianincavarelevcioeseie i B) Tescniginigieuarenians ae SoS Risa cjeieiweiniosianaisiod 1 tt AdGieitemarenemare alifornia.. as aie 1 50, 000. 00 Colorado. . 1 @ weeeese roeuaey Connecticu $125.00 | $100.00 30, 000. 00 Delaware. . 1 qa }, 000. 00 Florida... 1 1 25, 000. 00 Georgia... 1 & 5, 000. 00 Idaho......... 50.00 | 25.00 ‘25, 000. 00 Ilinois........ 50. 00 25.00 50, 000. 00 ANGIAND 2 pcie ciscinieisieiceiusiniwwciaisersteie 80. 00 40.00 50, 000. 00 TOW soreecisiciarcinjocieteinre siecareaerncia 80.00 40.00 100, 000. 00 ee ee @) (2) 10, 000. 00 Kentucky secwacegeaosenseonismenesesecreesneaees 200.00} 100.00 80, 000. 00 uisiana..... Q) Ye Walamitinjae rcinian os Qiersiaicisiaere eins Sete tia emis eee RaR cee eNeesnenenee Renee ses 100. 00 75.00 40, 000. 00 M: I ss ea aoe el ice uc Actua Ga aR Ao aca 50.00 25.00 15,000.00 Massachusetts. ..-...-2..2-0eeeee ence eeceeceee ence neeusneeaaeees 40.00 40.00 53, 000. 00 Michigan... By Nevafin Sis we cee Sia fora ctshn 2 o)aye Svsintctessieisecin --| 100.00 50.00 - 100, 000. 00 Minnesota. z --| 112.50] 45.00} 118,000.00 Mississippi 40. 00 20. 00 5,000. 00 Missouri. 50.00 25.00 90, 000. 00 Montana, 500. 00 500. 00 150, 000. 00 Nebraska. 50. 00 25.00 37, 500. 00 Nevada. .. 200.00 75.00 25,000.00 New Hampshire. . 75.00 50. 80 15, 000. 00 New Jersey. . is dicias era ilehafe ewer ererareve's - = 75.00 75.00 30, 000. 00 New Mexico aslnrbleraSutceesreiaereipielavars sae 66. 66 43.00 5,000. 00 New York... aa gin sole Staite. a's. aTaisUaipteretore sae 112. 50 67. 50 182, 100. 00 North Carolina. . ae a < 50.00 25.00 10, 000. 00 North Dakota... 80. 00 40.00 25, 000. 00 Ohio........ 225. 00 100. 00 100, 000. 00 Oklahoma. pir mies ees ---| 300.00 100. 00 75, 000. 00 ee i faiata wien Ais srafaieia ate, ue oe sei 50. 00 35. 00 30, 000. 00 LV ATMA 22 cece coscteiete were st Sm Sie ainScie's aiebualstoSie aS Niaisaaier tie 70.00 40.00 100, 000. 00 Rhode ASIA Chait eisha,2joiciareinin)s(cia sin ereseie eisteines 50. 00 37.50 5,000. 00 South Carolina. 50.00 25.00 10, 000. 00 South Dakota 100.00 50.00 5, 000. 00 Tennessee 100. 00 25.00 25, 000. 00 Texas 50.00 |.......... 20, 000. 00 Utah 00 25. 00 11, 250. 00 Verm 112. 50 75.00 100, Vir; hs 80.00 40. 00 15, 000. 00 Washington. ........2..sceneeeseoeee 50. 00 25.00 50, ‘West Virginia cc -.cemecacccee sets erecta -| 160.00 80. 00 30, 000. 00 Wisconsin........ meas a/srereteraate eis cies ciate eet 45. 00 20.00 250, 000. 01 WYOMING sees e to ceumacrerate sence Gees semine seisOtee cies URE ON EER EOS ESOR (8) (3) 15, 000. 00 TOO eras seca ewarioren ss a elias arena celud a kas acme dl ace oanniaiulls cautions 2, 211, 850.00 1 No indemnity. 2 No limit, county pays. . 3 No limit. Summary.—State indemnity paid in 39 States. Average maximum State indemnity is $102 for pure- bred cattle and average for grade cattle is $60. : The Cuairman. We would be glad to have all you have on the subject. Dr, Mouter. During the last fiscal year tuberculosis eradication work gained much popularity in the United States, and as the result of the demand for the work Congress increased the annual appro- priation from $500,000 per annum to $1,500,000 per annum, $500,000 of which was to be set aside for operating expenses and $1,000,000 164315—20-—17 258 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. for indemnities. Congress evidently desired to keep pace with the demand for this work and to furnish. to the live-stock owners of the United States full cooperation. As a matter of fact, however, the amount of cooperation the bureau has been able to give during the present fiscal year is little more than for the previous fiscal year. During the previous year the work was more concentrated; we did not undertake to spread it into every State because of the limited amount of funds provided, but when the various States appropriated over $2,200,000 our force was built up so that we could partially co- operate with practically every State. However, when the first third of the present year had passed, we found that we had spent. almost $200,000 or at the rate of $600,000 for operating expenses, whereas only $500,000 was available for operations. Likewise only $52,000 were spent for indemnities in the first third of the year, or at the rate of less than $200,000 per annum, which means a return of $800,- 000 to the Treasury. Therefore, on November 8, 1919, the services of 20 veterinary inspectors assigned to tuberculosis eradication work were terminated. Immediately protests were sent in from the States from which these employees were discontinued. In a few instances arrangements were made to retain them. We are now confronted with an overexpenditure for the balance of the year of $100,000 for operating expenses, and unless immediated relief is received it will be necessary to further reduce our forces at the rate of $20,000 per month. This means terminating the services of approximately 100 inspectors. Fee, 5 Cooperation furnished by the States: The 45 States with which we are cooperating in tuberculosis-eradication work have an aggregate of approximately $2,200,000. In cooperation’ with those States there were under supervision to November 15, 1919, 21,447 herds; up to the above-mentioned date there were fully accredited 1,391 herds of cattle; in addition to that number there were 16,341 herds which had passed one successful test in preparation for being accredited; in addition to those herds there were over 3,200 herds whose owners: had signed the agreement placing their herds under supervision so that they might be accredited in accordance with the uniform plan. In many of the States it has been necessary to refuse to accept any. more agreements from owners, on account of an insufficient number of inspectors to make tests. The accredited-herd plan: This plan was adopted December, 1917, by the United States Live Stock Sanitary Association upon a recom- mendation from a joint-committee representing the pure-bred cattle associations and live-stock sanitary officials. The plan was approved by the bureau December 23, 1917; therefore, the plan has been in operation less than two years and it is safe to say that it is the most- talked-about plan of eradicating tuberculosis that exists in the world. It is a simple plan and any person who reads it will readily under- stand it. It has been approved by every pure-bred cattle association in the United States. After two years of practical operation it was referred to a joint committee representing the same association; this committee met in Chicago, December 2, 1919, and after a thorough consideration of the subject it was the unanimous decision of the joint committee that no steps should be taken to lower the high standard of the present plan. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 259 Eradication of tuberculosis from areas: In a number of States campaigns have been carried on during the present fiscal year to. eradicate tuberculosis from circumscribed areas, such as counties. This work will increase very rapidly during the next fiscal year. The question now is: What credit can be given to the cattle owners of such territory when they have eradicated tuberculosis? It will be a gross injustice to them to keep them in the same status as States. wherein it is known that tuberculosis exists extensively. It is recom- mended that when a county has demonstrated that it has eradicated tuberculosis of live stock that the interstate movement of cattle from such an area should be permitted without a tuberculin test. Eradication of tuberculosis from swine: During the present fiscal year a number of investigations have been made as to the origin of tuberculous shipments of swine to official establishments. In numer- ous instances the bureau has been able to trace these tuberculous shipments from the killing floor back to the farm where they have originated and a campaign undertaken to eradicate tuberculosis from such farms. We have made satisfactory advancement in perfecting our system of obtaining information so that we can trace a larger percentage of tuberculous shipments. This work will be carried on more ex- tensively during the next year and should develop into a very com- plete system of tracing shipments from packing centers to farms and exterminating the disease where found. The next item is, on page 46, No. 62, “ for all necessary expenses for the eradication of the southern cattle tick.” This appropriation calls for no increase. I do not know whether you would like to review the work done during the last year, but I might say that up to and including December 1, 1919, we released from quarantine 62 counties and 83 parts of counties, constituting an area of 50,555 square miles. Mr. Trncwer. You say you have released that territory. Is there , 2 decrease in the appropriation ? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; for the simple reason that although we have released 14 counties in Alabama, 9 in Arkansas, 18 in Georgia, 11 in Louisiana, 3 in Oklahoma, and 7 in Texas, there still remains 219,581 square miles to be released. That means this territory which is in red [indicating on map] is still to be cleaned up and released from quarantine. ; The Cuarrman. Kindly indicate the States. Dr. Mouter. I thought I would leave this table. The Cuairman. Your table gives that? ; Dr. Mouter. Yes; with the amount of territory that has been re- leased and the amount still left in quarantine, giving the percentage. We have now cleaned up 70 per cent of the infested territory; we still have 30 per cent to clean up, and the hardest work is coming in this open-range country of Texas and Florida. ae Mr. Lex. At this rate it will take about seven years, will it; some- thing like that? Dr. Moutrr. We are figuring on about 1923. Mr. Le. That is earlier than I expected. ; Dr. Mouter. Yes; but of course that is only an estimate. ; Mr. Tixcuer. What is the policy? You enforce a quarantine where they have the ticks? 260 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. We enforce no local quarantine; the State enforces the local quarantine and we regulate interstate shipments from the quarantined area. Mr. Tincuzr. What do you mean by releasing? Dr. Moutzr. We dip these cattle from the early spring, say from the 1st of April, until the end of November, every 14 days. After the cattle show up without ticks on them and the territory is thereby cleaned of ticks, we take the territory out of quarantine by releasing it, so that those cattle that have been cleaned can then go to the other States without any restrictions whatever. Mr. Trncuzr. You lifted that quarantine some place in Texas, and a lot of those cattle were shipped into Greenwood County, Kans., last summer ? Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. Ticuner. And the tick showed up and ruined four or five good cattlemen up there. Dr. Mouter. It did not ruin them, did it? Mr. Tincuer. Yes; that transaction practically bankrupted one of the best cattle men in Greenwood County, because he had a forty or fifty dollar loss on steers anyway, and then he hed to dip them and abandon a pasture for which he was paying $14 a head for the entire season, which was-just too much for him. I have his name. They have several other men in Greenwood County who were severely in- jured by that proposition. Does the Government do anything for these men who have a right to rely on the proposition when the quarantine is lifted? Dr. Mouuer. There were two breaks from Texas shipments last summer. One was the result of dipping in crude oil, which failed to kill all the ticks, the oil being permitted during the war period in lieu of arsenic, our regular dipping material, which was comman- deered by the Government for warfare gas. The other was where cattle came from a clean territory in Western Texas, and picked up - the infection going through a local stockyard. They picked up these ticks when little bits of mites, almost microscopic in size, and nobody saw these seed ticks until they developed. When the cattle got to their destination those little mites had become big enough to be seen, and then the State put a quarantine on the cattle until the animals were free from these ticks. They were dipped several times and most of them have come out satisfactorily. One of these breaks occurred in West Virginia and the other in Kansas. I did not know that anybody was ruined, because I understood from Mr. Mercer there were only a few deaths that had occurred. Mr. Tincuer. That is the fact. Dr. Mouter. And if only two or three deaths occurred I do not see how it could ruin the person. Mr. Trncurr. I do not know whether it is a Government or State regulation, but here is an expensive pasture, where the man is pay- ing $14 a head for the pasture; what regulation requires him to take his cattle out of that pasture? Dr. Moutrr. That was probably done by the State Department. We do not require them to take the cattle out of the pasture at all. We have not any portion of Kansas under quarantine for ticks. In’ fact, Mr. Mercer was afraid we might put the counties under quaran- tine, but I told him as long as they would take care of it locally we AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 261 would not put any Federal quarantine on that section of Kansas. I believe he put the quarantine on and the results were very satisfac- tory. Mr. Lez. In other words, instead of forcing them to take the cattle out of the pasture, they are forced to leave them in the pasture? Mr. Trxcuzr. No; they take these cattle which they dip out of that pasture and keep all other cattle out of that pasture. That is the only way—— Dr. Mouter. That is done to keep the disease from spreading, But you say he had a loss before they reached that stage; he had a loss of $40 or $50 a head on the market value of the cattle. Mr. Tincuer. Oh; exactly. Dr. Mouter. I do not think the ticks ruined him, because Mr. Mercer informed me there were only a few deaths. Mr. Tincuer. But here is what the ticks do: If you have to dip the cattle out in that country and abandon a $14-a-head pasture, you add that to the loss all these men suffered last summer. We all hear people testify about the high price of meat, but we know that the men that-handled three or four-year-old steers this year took that loss. Dr. Monter. Yes; that is true. Mr. Tincuer. I have heard, Doctor, in a roundabout way, that Mercer wanted to come before the committee on some occasion in reference to that. Has he said anything to you? Dr. Mouter. Not about coming here. In fact, all he said to me was he had heard in a roundabout way that I was going to quaran- tine Federally those few counties in Kansas. When he was here in Washington in the fall on some other business he stopped in to find out whether his information was true, and I told him, as long as they took care of it locally, the Federal Government had no inten- tion of putting a Federal quarantine on that section of Kansas. We put our men in there and inspected the cattle, and made them apply double dipping. After two dips they can go anywhere. Mr. Tincuer. He made them take the cattle out of that pasture and not let any other cattle in there this season. He may have over- done the thing; I do not know. Dr. Mouter. I do not believe he did. Mr. Trxcuer. There were three or four other men whom it af- fected, too, and it was most disastrous to those three or four men. Dr. Mouter. Such unfortunate happenings are bound to occur as long as we have the Texas fever tick with us. The Cuarrman. What is being done to clean up the yards? Dr. Mountzr. We always clean up the stockyards, after we find them infested, by disinfecting with antiseptic solutions. The Cuairman. Cattle from these infected districts go through the stockyards? Dr. Monter. We have two kinds of pens, clean pens and native pens. The native pens are pens for the cattle with the ticks on them and the clean pens are pens for the cattle that have been dipped or are from clean territory. It very frequently happens that a cow pony of the trader riding around the stockyards will carry a few ticks on the legs. These ticks are apt to drop off in clean 262 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. territory, lay eggs which hatch out and then three or four thousand ticks are born and they crawl around into clean or any other kind, of pens. It is a very tedious job to keep clean pens in infected terri- tory,’so that there is no possibility of ticks being scattered from the native pens to the clean territory. Mr. Trxcuer. Where we appropriate money, what do you men spend it for? Dr. Mouuer. We have 280 men working in these nine States and we pay their salaries, pay their traveling expenses, and the stationery and incidentals of that sand. We do not pay for any construction of vats or the purchase of any of the dips. That is all done by either State or county appropriations. Now the various States have 373 employees and the counties have 1,552 employees. This shows you how we are getting cooperation from the States. When this work started, a number of years back, we were the ones that had the largest number, just like we have to-day on the tuberculosis eradication. The States and counties have come along fast and they are furnishing more employees than the bureau; they are fur- nishing about eight to our one. The various expenses in 1919 are all stated on page 47. Here is the full statement, Mr. Tincher, of the expenditures for 1919: Salaries, $512,166; stationery, $1,793; traveling expenses, $125,519; equipment and material, $5,658; tele- phone and telegraph service, $1,103; miscellaneous items, $15,942, and wages, $1,440. Mr. Tincuer. I do not want to appear in the attitude of being against this appropriation; I think it is a very important one. I want to make a suggestion to you, however, that might be of value to you. Your inspectors ought to be cautioned about one little thing I know of. For instance, a man shipping a trainload of cat-, tle from Texas, from a clean district, say, up into Kansas, has to unload at certain stations. There is no excuse for that inspector let- ting the railroads persuade him to hold a trainload of cattle in the yards for two or three days under the claim that he is looking for ticks when, as a matter of fact, he is doing it to accommodate some railroad employee who wants to use a car some place else. I had two trainloads of cattle held last fall at a station in Oklahoma, and I had to go there and stay five or six days (they were delayed to that extent), and when I got there I found the Government in- spector holding them there to investigate for ticks. Dr. Mouter. There was no excuse for that at all. Mr. Trncuer. And when I got on the job myself, I found he was simply holding them to accommodate the railroad, to let them ac- commodate some one else with the cars. It is purely a car situation. However, the intimation gets out, up in my neighborhood, that my cattle have come from yards where there is some question on about ticks being present. You can not be too care bout some fellow creating the impression that a man has ticks in his cattle. I found out this fellow—— a Dr. Montrr. If you will give me his name, I will find out about it, because there is no occasion for having the cattle held to investigate for ticks for two or three days. | Mr. Trncrer. He was just doing it to accommodate the railroad. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 263 Mr. Lex. I should think it would be to the interest of the railroads to unload quickly. Mr. Tincuer. They unloaded my cattle. Dr. Moutzr. Is that the unloading for feed, rest, and water ? Mr. Tincuer. Oh, yes, they had to; but they were sparring along because they were up against it for cars. ia Mouter. Five hours is enough for them to investigate for icks. Mr. Trncuer. It did not hurt the cows, except the stigma of there being ticks there, and it prevents you from suing the railroad for damages and does away with your claim for delay. * Dr. Mouter. Mr. Chairman, if there is nothing further on this item I shall leave the chart here showing the progress in tick eradication, to which Congressman Lee referred. Mr. Ler. I do not think there is any more important work for our country than this field of work. Mr. Trncner. I do not want it done away with. Mr. Lee. And I think the best thing in the world, if we had the money to do it, would be to go on and complete this thing in two or three years. Dr. Mouter. During the present year we have released from Fed- eral quarantine the following area: Counties. “Counties. Square Square States. _miles, States. Te Whole. | Part. Whole. | Part. 14 10 | 12,991 || Oklahoma.................. 3 8 4,346 9 6 Be ABO || RONG! jsiniencswisrediniticteiasvraacrecaed a Ft 5 8, 847 BS I oradicte 6, 942 11 4 9, 298 Total. cxcwicnccsvesciscterd 62 33 | 50,555 Satisfactory progress is being made and a greater interest than heretofore is being manifested in tick eradication which is indicated by the increase in the amount of funds provided by the State and county authorities. Sufficient Federal funds should be provided for this project in order that the bureau may adequately cooperate with the States and counties requesting assistance during 1921. The Alabama and Louisiana authorities hope to complete the eradi- cation of ticks during the next year and are making plans accord- ‘ingly. The bureau is unable to furnish adequate supervision to all the counties in Georgia that are now ready for systematic cooperative tick-eradication work. Under the State law of Texas compulsory tick eradication becomes effective on January 1, 1920, in zone 2, which will require considerable additional assistance from the bureau. It is also expected that bureau assistance will be requested for many counties in Florida during the next fiscal year. Additional informa- tion covering the entire work up to date is contained in attached statement of the progress in tick eradication from July 1, 1906, to December 1, 1919: 264 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Progress in tick eradication, July 1, 1906, to Dec. 1, 1919. Counties in- coe fected Dee. 1, Conese Area Al State. fected aes infected | infected’ | arog released. D July 1, | Dee. 1, 1906. i wun 1919 * |Whole.| Part. | Whole.| Part. Num, | Num- | Num-| Num-| Num-| Square | Square | Square | Per i i miles. | cent. Alabama. . 46, 454 91 Arkansas 41,887 80 California, 79,924 100 Florida. . 9,645 18 Georgia...... a 36,674 64 Kentucky............... 841} 100 Louisiana. . ca 40,376 93 Mississippi. 46,362 | 100 Missouri... 1,386 | 100 North Caro. 29, 674 79 QKlahoma...... a 608} 8h South Carolina........... 30,495 | - 100 Tennessee.......-..-..-- 2 : 6, 987 100 PORAS 5 easton soos census 198 | 128 4 7 4], 191,885 |: 114,346 |. 77;539.|.. 40 Vi sae wks dark manana 30 3 1 26 1; 18,918 1, 686 12,232 | . 88 Total ss .ose.cas ete: 960 268 25 668 25 | 728,565 | 219,581 | 509, 084 70 1 Only portions of 5 of the 61 counties were quarantined.. Areas released during the calendar year 1919 amounted to 50,555 square miles, The next item is the dairy division work to which Mr. Raw] has already referred, and we will see that his testimony comes in its proper position in the record. Mr. Rommel will come next. He is not here just now, so I will complete my statement. He will be here in a few minutes, and I will see that his testimony also gets in its proper position. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Dr. Mohler. Turspay, Decemper 9, 1919—ArrerNoon SEssion. STATEMENT OF MR. B. H. RAWL, ASSISTANT CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY AND CHIEF OF THE DAIRY DIVISION, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Mr. Harrison. As Mr. Raw] is compelled to leave the city to-night I shall appreciate it if you will hear his statement this evening with reference to item 63, on page 48, “for all necessary expenses for in- vestigations and experiments in dairy industry,” etc. The Cuarrman. We will be glad to hear you, Doctor. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Give your name in full. Mr. Rawu. B. H. Rawl, Chief of the Dairy Division, and Assistant Chief of the Bureau of Animal Industry. Now, I suppose it is your wishes to review first the proposed items of increase and then give some consideration to the work in progress; is that satisfactory ? Mr. McLaveututn of Michigan. Take your own way about it. Mr. Harrison. The practice has been, Mr. Rawl, to make a general statement to the committee about the work as a whole and then a spe- cific statement about the increases which the department is re- questing. Mr. Rawt. Our activities are very much the same as heretofore. The division of the funds, $350,370, I have here in detail if you wish AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 265 it, showing exactly what work is done under each project. I can not review all projects except in a general way, unless you want to give considerable time to this division. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Is that in such form that it can go into the record ? om Mr. Rawt. Yes. ‘ pe Meee of Michigan. I think that should be put into the record. Mr. Rawt. I shall keep it for the time being; I may want to refer to it. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You would wish it to go into the record ? Mr. Rawt. If you wish it. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. We would like to have it. (The statement referred to follows:) . Dairy division allotment, fiscal year 1920, $350,370. Dairy administration: Administration, including all activities in. the divison that serve the division as a whole, such as files, stenographic force, dairy engineering, dairy statistics__________________________ $37, 675 Dairy: extension: Supervision : : 9, 420 Southern dairying. 10, 250 Northern dairying (cow testing) 30, 295. Bull associations, extension 11, 740 Community development in dairying. - 1,800 Cow-testing association investigation__.___._.________________ ---- 8,300 Bull associations investigations 8, 600 70, 405. Dairy manufacturing: Supervision 11, 480 Creamery extension 8, 460: Cheese factory extension 10, 090 Creamery management investigations. Gp 6, 680 Renovated butter inspection 6, 240 Navy butter inspection ; a 1, 000 <0. _ 43; 950 Dairy research laboratories: Supervision ___________._-_____- 2, 760 Ice-cream investigations 3, 800 Butter and by-products________________------- -. 10,380 Milk condensing -- 7,120 Bacteriology of milk 10, 170 Nutrition of dairy cows : 8, 640 Metabolism of dairy cows 3, 650 Manufacturing and ripening cheese ise 14, 970 Silage investigations oe 3, 820 65, 310 Market milk investigations: Supervision : eee = 4, 680 Dairy sanitation investigations ae - 8,280 Cost of handling milk oe, _ 5,480 Cost of milk production an -- 11,410 Dairy sanitation extension 18, 740 38, 590 266 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. . Dairy experiment farm, including experimental work on the farm: Supervision’ and maintenance $30, 995 Housing and care of cattle indies --- 2,820 Feed production— So 3, 925 = 87, 740. ‘Western dairy extension: SUDELVISIOM 22 2 Se Se ee ee i 4, 260. Dairy farming ---- 19,860 Milk work. : = 3, 600 Dairy manufacturing : nach 7, 280 35, 000 Improvement of dairy products. 4 15, 000 \ 6, 700 Dairy cattle breeding Mr. Rawt. To review. the’ work in a general way, the dairy divi- sion activities are divided into two large groups. One relates to the extension or the carrying out of information that is developed from time to time and aiding in its application. That is shown in the ‘organization of cow-testing associations, bull associations, etc. It is shown also in demonstrating at certain factories new methods for the manufacture of products that I will speak of later. The extension activities of the dairy division are reduced, we think, to the very minimum, considering the character of the service that is rendered. I may add just a word here on the question that is often raised whether or not we were duplicating the work of the extension serv- ice in sending out specialists along different lines. We believe that the activities of this kind are reduced as low as they can be and get into effective use the information that the department is developing. Some of you will remember that I have in the past referred to the department’s work in the southern mountains developing tlie cheese factories. Here is a chart showing its growth [displaying chart to the committee]. In 1915 we started the development of cheese in the southern mountains, away back in the mountains of Tennessee and North Carolina and West Virginia. We have four men in that field, employed jointly by the State extension departments and the Depart- ment of Agriculture. . “ One of the items here is for $5,000 for cheese work of a similar character in the Western States. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. Do you carry that kind of work on in sections? Mr. Raw. Yes. Mr. McLaueuun of Michigan. How many different sections have you carried on the work in? Mr. Rawt. Only one, of this particular kind of work. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. And now you are prepared to take it up in other sections? Mr. Rawt. Yes; in the Western States, in the Rocky Mountains. You know cheese production is dependent a good deal on climatic conditions, cool weather, cool water, etc. The western part of the country contains some splendid cheese territory. This chart shows the development of a new cheese industry in the southern mountains, a territory equally difficult to develop as any region perhaps in the Western States. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 267 Mr. Jonzs. Is that gross production in dollars and cents? Mr. Rawt. Yes. It shows that in 1915 it was $3,000; in 1916, $50,000—I am giving you round figures; in 1917, $116,000; in 1918, $158,000; and in 1919, $289,000. Of course, this is a comparatively small industry, but since it developed from nothing four years ago the showing made is very good. In time apparently there is likely to be a substantial cheese industry throughout all that mountain region as a result of this work. Mr. Jones. Do I understand that in those States Mr. Raw (interposing). North Carolina, Virginia, Tennessee, West Virginia, Georgia, and South Carolina. Mr. Jones. There was no cheese production? Mr. Rawt. No. | Mr. Jonzs. And in 1915 there was a cheese production in North Carolina mountain section that was $3,000? Mr. Raw. Yes; you are correct. Mr. Jonzs. And also in 1915 there was no cheese production in the other States? Mr. Raw. No. Mr. Jones, And then in 1916 you added Virginia, Tennessee, and West Virginia? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Jones. And in 1917 there was cheese production in the same States? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Jones. And in 1918 you added Georgia? Mr. Raw. Yes. Mr. Jones. And in 1919 South Carolina? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Jones. In order to have the records show up better, I should judge you ought to put in the record the production of one of the States; take North Carolina, for example; in 1914 there was noth- ing; in 1915, $3,000; in 1916, $43,000; in 1917, $84,000; in 1918, $114,000; in 1919, $220,000? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. McLauvecutiin of Michigan. Why not put that in the record? Mr. Rawt. I should like to do that, if you desire it. If you want to see the number of factories, here is another chart. I though this was the best way to show you exactly what we want to do in the Rocky Mountain district. Value by years of southern cheese sold since factories were organized. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 $84,000 “> 000 | $220, 000 268 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Growth of the cheese industry in the southern mountains since the establish- ment of the first factory in 1915. 1915 1916 1917 1918 1919 DOPUH CAPO oo nccisscaia cen nnsuennaue evveenGebanenn Virginia........ Tennessee. ..... West Virginia. . Goorgiaiecccdstsncese.ceiae e Bout Carolina), o.ccccoceweruran tee Reh ge wouewcaces MP Obalestetewicnnstas be terdene on. oe Gocdteceakatck : 3 10 33 43 52 No er OT 4 MONNANNND _ Mr. Anprrson. What did you have to do with this? You are tak- ing credit for all this; what did you have to do with it? r. Raw. I didn’t have much to do with it, except to get good men and see that they did their work well. This work was done in cooperation with the North Carolina State extension department. Mr. Jonzs. Following out Mr. Anderson’s suggestion, what did ‘your people do to follow this? ; Mr. Raw. The work was begun by a man going into this territory and showing them how to organize a little cheese factory costing $300 to $400. Under his guidance the first factory was started in 1915. Since that time these cooperative employees have guided the develop- ment of the cheese-factory business in that region and taught the local men how to make cheese. ee We now want $5,000 for this kind of work in the Western States: Mr. Tincuer. You are only asking for $5,000? Mr. Rawt. That is all. Mr. McUaueutin of Michigan. You are going into a territory in which no cheese has been made? Mr. Raw. In places some cheese is being made now. We are working there in cooperation with the State agencies. As to just where this additional work will be done will depend on circumstances. There is another item of $20,000 in connection with the educational work to take care of increased cost of transportation, supplies, and travel, and to increase bull association work. These associations have proven to be one of the best means of increasing dairy produc- tion. From all standpoints the increasing of the production of the cows of this country is the most important of all considerations before both the producer and the consumer. Economy of production is based more than anything else upon the quantity of production. The surest and cheapest way to increase the production of our herds is to use good sires. Our herds are small, averaging not more than five cows. Cow-testing associations can reach the herds of 10 or more cows, but can not the herds of 5 or less: There are not a half million good bulls in the United States, but there are over 5,000,000 farms, on which the 24,000,000 cows are kept. This means that to secure the full use of the good bulls it will be necessary that the same animals be used on more than one farm. This can be accomplished by cooperative bull clubs. The scheme permits of a rotation of the bulls and the continuance of the services of good bulls for several years without inbreeding. The bull club is practical and has been demonstrated to be successful. ‘ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 269 It provides a good bull at a much lower cost than a poor one under the present system. It is believed to be the best way of instructing the small producers not only in better breeding, but in better feeding and management. The department started the bull association work as an extension project in 1915, and since that time associations have been organized in 27 States. During the first several years the funds for bull associations were used in investigating methods of organization, by-laws, and details of carrying on such organizations.” The present expenditures for bull association work amount to $15,340 per year. The total increase for the dairy division is $40,480, but taking into consideration the transfers to the statutory roll, it will amount to $11,720 more. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. This is a matter that does not re- quire much knowledge or skill. This bull business has been going on since the beginning of time. How do you justify the Federal Gov- ernment going into that? Mr. Rawt. In this way: The organization of bull associations is highly specialized extension work and to be successful requires ex- perienced men. Mr. McLavueuurn of Michigan. Is that strictly true, Mr. Rawl? I have heard of bull associations in different parts of the country for many years. Mr. Rawt. In 1908 there were 3, and at the present time there are 78. That is all of this type of organization now—78 in the United States. We find that by sending men out that are capable and ex- perienced in this work that they can introduce it. ~ tt Mr. AnpvErson. How many men have you had working on this proposition ? Mr. Rawt. Five. Mr. Anverson. How long? Mr. Rawt. We started out with one man four years ago and in- creased last year to five. ’ Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. You said, I believe, that the county agents, could not to the best advantage carry on that cheese work, and I thought perhaps that was true; one must go who knows some- thing about aenice cheese. Mr. Rawu. To get it established. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. But couldn’t the county agent make the suggestion to the farmers that they organize into an asso- ciation and Bay some bulls? Mr. Raw. Yes; they could; a county agent that understood it— there is no big secret about it, but they do not. Now, it takes some force to get the farmers interested in it and to put it through. Mr. Trncuer. What do county agents do? Mr. Rawu. Almost everything. Their duties are numerous; they are supposed to deal with all agricultural questions, and, of course, they must have aid in these special lines. Mr. Trncuer. If they are any good and they need a bull associa- fen = their country, they will organize a bull association, won’t they ? Mr. Raw. I wouldn’t say that. Of course, the county agencies have not been in existence long enough so that we can have a supply 270 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. of the best men. A county agent’s work is about as responsible as any we have in agriculture. _ Mr. Trycuer. Couldn’t you publish this information in pamphlet form and ask them to organize in this manner? It would be cheap, and wouldn’t it be just as effective? Mr. Rawu. My judgment is it would not be as effective. We now publish and send to the county agent every detail concerning the organization and management of such associations. Mr. Jones. Couldn’t you get up a prospectus telling them how to go about it and explaining what you wanted them to do? Mr. Rawt. Yes; we do this, but the county agents need more as- sistance; they must have the help of some one experienced in.such. organization until one such association is in successful operation. Even after this the assistance of such an experienced person in often. sought by the county agent. Mr. Lusuer. There are some associations in Pennsylvania who are doing this with hogs and have hog associations. Mr. Rawi. Yes; and the whole purpose here is to induce the county agent to organize such associations and to aid him in carrying: them on. Mr. Ruszy. What do you pay these men? Mr. Rawt. From $1,800 to $2,340. Mr. Rusry. Do they go to the county and into the territory? Mr. Raw. Yes. Mr. Rupey. And they stay about a little while and work it up and then go to another county ? Mr. Rawt. They pick a county which is adaptable and where the association is feasible, and then they try to organize one and stay in. the county as long as necessary. Mr. Jonns. The county agent does not flop around like that; he stays in the county ?: Mr. Rawu. The county agents’ work is restricted to the county in which he is located. Mr. Jones. Are they paid anything by the State? Mr. Rawz. Yes; some of the men on bull associations are paid jointly by the department and the States but we have three men ex- clusively on our pay rolls. . Mr. Jones. The amount of salary you mentioned was the total salary ? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Rusey. Yes; I was asking about our own men. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Mr. Rawl, I can see how you might do good and might properly carry on this work by issuing publications and issuing bulletins and publications, but I am a little at a loss how you justify hiring a number of men to go around into the States to induce the people to organize bull associations; why is. that a Federal function? Mr. Rawt. Exactly for the same reason that it was necessary a few years ago for the Department of Agriculture to induce the peo- ple to start county agent work. It is the department’s function to exercise leadership and branch out in the development of such, systems as are for the good of the people. Mr. McLavucutin of Michigan. A few years ago when the county agent feature was advanced the people were very much surprised at. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 271 the idea that the Federal Government would furnish money enough to furnish a county agent for each county in the country; they: thought that was a wonderful proposition, and we are proceeding to. that end. The Lever law is in force; it is growing in amount, and the number of men employed is increasing year by year; but we find as we are getting to that plan of having a man for each county in the country it still is necessary for us to have an expert go out and talk bulls, an expert to talk teas, an expert on this, that, and the other thousand and one different things, to go out and confer with and en- courage the county agents. There are so many of them that they go around arm in arm, and in bunches in the country, each one an ex- pert in his own line, neither one must interfere with the other one, and it seems to me we are carrying this expert business to a ridicu- lous extent and"becoming very paternalistic. Mr. Rawt. The Department of Agriculture believes that the need of its service by the people is just as great to-day as it was years ago. As we go forward our problems increase. Take this sire work. Our department has put on a publicity campaign that has been pub- lished in the papers all over the country, regarding the use of better sires. At the present time not more than few sires in use in our dairy herds produce daughters whose production is greater than that of their dams, and exceedingly few that are able to produce daugh-. ters of greater production than good dams. Mr. Trncuer. That is pure, unadulterated carelessness on the part of the herdsmen, and that is not with reference to the expense, because it is cheaper Mr. Rawt (interposing). It is cheaper, under proper conditions, to own a good bull. But this is the condition that exists now. Mr. Trncner. Can the department in any way, with any amount. of men, do anything to cure that situation ? Mr. Rawt. I think it can do a great deal to cure it. Mr. Trxcuer. Your idea is for the farmers to organize, so as to. use the same sires? Mr. Rawt. To begin with; yes; the best sires. Mr. Tincuer. Asa matter of fact, the sires, if taken care of, would cost practically nothing when they are calves. Each man could have. his own bull and have a good one. Mr. Rawu. The farmers often do not think they can. The calves, of course, do cost considerable—the real good calves. We think bulls. are not good enough to use unless there is reason to believe they can sire daughters yielding 400 pounds of fat in a year. They will cost. now about $400 to $500 apiece. The chief point in all this is that there are more than 5,000,000 farms with dairy cows, and there are, perhaps, not a half million good bulls in the whole United States. We can not hope, therefore, to improve herds rapidly in this country unless concerted action is taken to induce farmers to cooperate in the ownership of the good bulls we do have. It is wasteful to have one good bull on a farm with five cows when he could just as well gerve similar herds on 10 farms, and by the system of rotation, as is the plan in the bull association, they would be available for not only two years but for eight or more years. Mr. Trncuer. The States that have agricultural colleges are work- ing on the same lines? 272 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL: Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Trncuer. And carrying out into the counties the same ideas? Mr. Rawu. Yes. Mr. Tincuer. Comparatively few States have gone as far as we have? Mr. Rawu. Few States have taken up full association work. Mr. Trncuer. Don’t you think what they ought to do is to en- courage the owner, no matter how small his herd, to own a sire? Mr. Rawut. No. Where a man has only two or three head of cows, it : perfectly feasible for a dozen or more such men to own one good bull. Mr. Hutcuinson. Before you get away from this I want to ask one question. I notice the appropriation is increasing all the time; you have $40,000, or better this time, and still the price of butter and cheese is going out of sight; do the two follow each other; the more we give you, the higher the prices? Mr. Rawu. Hardly, sir. We hope that some of the work we are doing will at least help to reduce prices. The Cuarrman. What is your opinion of the present butter prices; how do they compare with the prices of other commodities? Mr. Rawt. I have not reviewed that specifically in the last few months, but they are probably not out of line. Mr. Hurcurnson. Butter at 82 cents a pound is not out of line? Mr. Rawu. Not when the prices of feed and labor are considered. The Cuarrman. Does it compare favorably with other products? Mr. Raw. Generally speaking it does. The CHarrman. What does butter sell for at the creameries; not the retail prices? Mr. Rawt. I don’t know exactly what the quotations are, but they me around 74 cents in the New York market and 72 cents in icago. The Cuairman. At the creameries in the country ? Mr. Raw. No; at the points mentioned. The Cuarrman. All summer? Mr. Raww. No; at the present time. Butter has ranged from 48 sy in Chicago and 494 cents in New York up to 74 cents, whole- sale. The Cuarrman. It has been below 50 cents a pound? Mr.Rawt. Yes; in July. If you want some data on this, may T suggest that you ask the Bureau of Markets for it. That bureau is, of course, in closer touch with the market than we are. The Cuarrman. I would like it in the record in connection with this. The question is raised all the time about the farmers robbing the country on the prices of butter. I want a comparison between that and other commodities. Mr. Rawt. I stated that I did not believe that butter was out of line when the cost of feed, labor, etc., were considered. The Cuarirman. It is certainly out of line with some commodities: "it is low. Mr. Raw. You mean too cheap? The Cuairman. Yes. What is the average production per capita? Mr. Rawt. There are about 16,000,000 to 17,000,000 pounds of but- ter produced in the Nation, and something over 100,000,000 of our people—— AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 273 The Cuarrman (interposing). How many pounds per cow? Mr. Raw. According to 1910 census it was about 160 pounds per cow. The Cratrman. Take 160 pounds at 50 cents per pound, that would be per cow $80? Do you contend that you can keep a cow a year for $80? Mr. Rawt. No, sir; but I am against that kind of cow. You can’t feed a good cow and feed her as much as she needs for $80 a year at the present time. The Cuarrm4n. What does it cost to feed a cow if you are to buy the feed ? Mr. Rawu. I can not give you that at the present. ' The Cuarrman. It seems to me that is a very important thing to now. Mr. Rawt. The cost varies in different parts of the country. The Cuairman. The price of butter is higher than before; twice as high; about 30 cents a pound difference at the creamery? Mr. Rawt. Yes. The Cuairman. Labor is about four times as high as it ever was; a wagon is three times as high, and everything the farmer buys is three or four times as high, and yet butter is about twice as high "as it was. Mr. Ratney. In other words, the chairman of the committee feels that the farmer should get twice as much for butter as he is getting. Mr. Rawz. I am sorry that I am not now prepared to give you that. : Mr. Anprerson. Have you a bunch of cows at Beltsville Mr. Raw. Yes; our books will show exactly what it costs to feed those cows. We have some cows that cost three or four times as much as the average cow. The Cuarrman. How much does it cost? Mr. Rawt. A cow that produces 800 pounds of fat will eat three or four times as much as some that produce 300 pounds. Mr. McLaveututn of Michigan. Have you a cow that produces 800 pounds of fat? Mr. Rawu. We have one that produced 856 pounds, and we have a heifer that produced 756 pounds, and some heifers that produced five to six hundred pounds of fat. The Cuarrman. How much are those cows worth? ‘Mr. Rawu. That would be only a guess. The Cuarrman. What is the profit on the investment on your 800- pound cow? Mr. Rawz. An 800-pound cow, ordinarily, if of good type and breeding, will bring $2,000 or $3,000; often more. I think the heifers I speak of would readily bring that amount. The Cuarrman. What would be the profit, figuring the expenses, on your investment? Mr. Rawtu. The value of such animals depends largely on their use for breeding purposes. However, cows kept for butter production should produce 300 to 400 pounds butter fat per year and even when grades are worth from $150 to $300. Mr. Anprrson. You are keeping cows out there, aren’t you? Mr. Raw. Yes. 16431520 —_18 274 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr, AnvErson. You know how much it costs to keep them? Mr. Rawt. Yes. : Mr. Anperson. We want to know how much profit you have from those cows. Mr. Rawt. I shall be glad to furnish you data showing what it costs to feed these cows, but can not do it offhand. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What is the breed of those cows? Mr. Rawu. They are Holsteins, the ones I have been speaking of. Mr. Rusey. You keep them for breeding purposes? - Mr. Rawt. We are using them in a fundamental breeding experi- ment. Mr. Tincuer. I notice on this item it covers the inspection on the ‘investigation of the dairy interests in various States, the inspection of renovated butter factories and markets. I wondered whether that was any duplicating section there when you finally get your bill through, Mr. Hutchinson ? Mr. Hurcuinson. I was going to ask the Doctor if he has any knowledge how much butter-is in storage? Mr. Rawt. I did not quite understand your question ? Mr. Tincusr. I guess it is hardly a proper question; I wondered whether there would not-be a double inspection under that cold- storage law. Mr. Rawt. There is not at the present time. Mr. Tincuer. Before you pass that, if the Hutchinson bill for ‘a cold-storage inspection should become a law, which it probably will before we attack this bill, there will be a duplicate law for inspection, will there not? Mr. Rawt. I couldn’t tell you; I am not familiar enough with the details of the Hutchinson bill to answer that question. The Cuarrman, What is this $29,850 for? Mr. Rawu. That is for research work, largely on dairy products, that I shall review briefly. When we work out an improved method for manufacturing a product, in order to get it into use it is neces- sary to go to certain factories and introduce it. It is necessary to do this also in order to carry the experimental work to a final completion. We begin in the laboratory on a problem and then go to the factory where we have commercial conditions, then we seek to introduce the final results into commercial plants. In 1914 there was imported to this country from Switzerland over 22,000,000 pounds of Swiss cheese. This is one of the most popular of the foreign cheeses, and it is believed that the manufacture of this product in this country would greatly increase the consumption of cheese. The Dairy Division has investigated the manufacture of Swiss cheese over a period of years, and has been successful in isolating the culture that produces the flavor and eyes, and has also been successful in using another culture which controls the development of the first- named culture. The organisms of the type known as bacillus bulgaricus are intro- duced into the milk, and these control the fermentation and also inhibit the growth of other organisms, especially gas formers, and perhaps also make conditions favorable for the flavor producers.” The second culture which was discovered in the laboratories here is known definitely to produce the flavor and the eyes. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 275 Check cheeses made from the same milk and under the identical conditions, but without culture, are without eyes and the character- istic Swiss cheese flavor. In Europe and this country the making of Swiss cheese has up to this time been uncertain and only a relatively small percentage of the cheese made is the typical Swiss. At the Grove City Creamery, the management of which is under the supervision of the Dairy Divi- sion, Swiss cheese has been made on a large scale from milk received once a day and sometimes two days old. All of it is of the typical Swiss flavor and has the typical eyes. Recently delegates from Ohio spent some time at the Grove City plant, and reported that they received their milk twice a day; yet they lose as high as 75 per cent of their cheese. One of the very large New York manufacturers recently sent his head maker to Grove City to spend a week there. This manufac- turer will use cultures and will provide curing roonis after the style of those at the Grove City Creamery. They report that under their present arrangement they lose much of their cheese. A large manufacturer of Swiss cheese in Pennsylvania recently arranged to put in refrigerator and temperature control similar to those installed at Grove City. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You made Swiss cheese in the department several years ago satisfactorily, didn’t you? Mr. Rawt. Yes; we did this by taking samples of cheese of high quality and using them as starters, and we got good results.’ Later on we succeeded in isolating the organisms. Only within the last year or two have we known exactly what organisms are necessary to produce the characteristic Swiss flavor and eyes. Mr. McLaveuuw of Michigan. Can you find the organigms you speak of in the milk? Mr. Rawt. Sometimes we do and sometimes not; that is where the importance of the work comes in. Mr. McLavcuun of Michigan. Do you have to go outside? Mr. Raw. What we do is to grow them outside and put them into the milk to make sure they are there. But the isolation of them is going to be of great value. Another feature is our Roquefort-cheese work. Until now Roque- fort cheese has never been made successfully in America; it has been tried for years. We have now developed methods of making a high grade of Roquefort from cow’s milk. In France sheep’s milk is used. The sample of Roquefort I have here shows what has been accomplished in this direction using cow’s milk. We get only about 6,000,000 pounds or so from France, but the imported French Roquefort is now selling at $1.25 a pound. Cheese like this sample has been recently offered for sale in New York and Washington and brought 90 cents wholesale. Mr. McLaveuuw of Michigan. Your product. Mr. Rawv. Our product; the very first that was ever made, and this is the first that was ever made outside of a Roquefort-cheese cave in France. Mr. Rusey. Where is this made? Mr. Rawt. In a factory at Grove City, Pa.; operated under our supervision. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Your method of doing that is to send a man there and work with them? 276 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _ Mr. Rawt. In Pennsylvania it is a factory where we have a work- ing arrangement, and which is under our control. We are now in a position to send an inquirer to this factory, where he can see this quetved in use. Many people will avail themselves of the oppor- unity. The Cuarman. Tell us about the cave and the process. Mr. Raw. What we do is simply to take rooms and insulate them and maintain a temperature of about 50 degrees, and also maintain a saturated atmosphere; the condition in the French cave. Under these conditions the cheese is cured five or six months. Mr. Rusey. Does it take five months to do it this way? Mr. Rawu. Yes; about five months. This is not a very big industry now. It is a question whether our market should pay $1.25 for the imported products, or a sim- ilar price for our own. By the development of a reliable method of making Roquefort in this country we can no doubt cheapen the cost of production, and this will be good for the industry as well as for the consumer. That is what we are trying to do. The Cuarrman. What is the cost of making this at the present time ? Mr. Rawr. We have not gone far enough to establish these costs. The Cuarrman. What is the Roquefort made of? Mr. Rawt. A good grade of cow’s milk. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. They are pretty far advanced in these matters in Wisconsin; had they successfully made Roquefort? Mr. Rawt. No. Camembert is another cheese we have done some work on. We have not developed a new method as in the case of the Swiss and Roquefort, but that is not necessary. Mr. Jonzs. Have you found in that factory you are operating in Pennsylvania that it can be made for commercial use? Mr. Raw. We have made 10,000 pounds of Roquefort so far. Mr. Jones. On that $5,000 item you say three States; what three States are contemplated ? Mr. Raw. In the Rocky mountain region. I don’t know exactly what States, as yet. In the production of butter I have mentioned to you before the possibility of utilizing skimmed milk. About one-half of our milk supply is devoted to butter production—about 40,000,000,000 pounds in round numbers. The Factory: as a rule buys the fat which constitutes about one-third of the solids and leaves the remain- der for the farmer to use as best he can. Some of the skim milk is needed back home for young live stock. We could utilize 15,000,000,000 or 20,000,000,000 pounds of skimmed milk for human food if we developed the method for doing so and if the industries will take hold of it and develop the market for these products. The problems involved are numerous. Skimmed-milk powder is one of the products into which it can be made. This is a small in- dustry as yet, consisting of only 10,000,000 or 12,000,000 pounds a year, but the food value of skimmed-milk powder is very great. Many problems concerning it are yet to be solved. Another problem that we have been greatly interested in lately is the recovery of an edible albumen from whey. There is produced AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Q277 annually in the United States as a by-product of the manufacture of cheese and casein approximately 3,249,000,000 pounds of whey. This contains approximately 162,000,000 pounds of milk sugar, 82,500,000 pounds of proteins, of which about one-half is lact-albu- men, and 26,000,000 pounds of ash constituents. All of this is very valuable food material. At the present time, it is largely fed to pigs and calves but for the most part in a very inefficient manner. A small amount is utilized in making milk sugar for which there is a limited market. Considerable quantites are absolutely wasted. We are now attempting to separate in a marketable form the proteins which have much the same chemical composition and physical properties as the white of.egg. By a process involving concentrating, Flteving: and drying a powder is obtained which contains all of the proteins and a small part of the sugar and ash constituents. In this process about 1.2 pound of powder is obtained per hundred pounds of whey with akout 4 pounds of milk sugar as a by-product. The crude milk sugar has at the present time a market value of about 15 cents per pound. Preliminary baking tests have shown that this powder has the physical properties of egg white and in some ways is superior to egg white. Cakes made with the whey powder have a more satisfactory crust and retain moisture better than those made with egg. One pound of the powder will replace about 30 eggs in cake making. On account of the lack of suitable machinery it has not been possible to determine the cost of manufacture. There is little doubt, however, that it can be made to sell in com- petition with eggs at present prices. The Cuarrman. How much will that cost? Mr. Rawt. I don’t know. I am not sure that it is feasible yet, but we have a process that looks practicable, though it has not been put to a final test. In the ordinary process of making milk sugar the albumen is heated and filtered out. It is a strong-smelling congealed substance like an egg when it is cooked. This process that we are working on takes the albumen out in the uncongealed form, after which it is reduced to the form of a powder. The feasibility of this method is yet, to be determined, and if the cost of production is low enough there is a possibility, at least, of this being very useful. These are some of the problems we are working on. Mr. McLavucutin of Michigan. You spoke about the sugar in the milk, What form isit in? Does it resemble ordinary sugar? | Mr. Rawz. Somewhat. Me McLavexum of Michigan. Has it the quality of ordinary sugar? Mr. Rawt. Milk sugar has not the sweet taste of cane sugar. Its food value I believe is practically the same as cane sugar. Mr. McLaveutn of Michigan. In these problems you are work- ing out are you making progress enough, you think, to justify the continuance of the appropriation for the work? Mr. Raw. Yes. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. How much money do you want for that? Mr. Rawu. We want $29,850, deducting from this a part of the sum transferred to the statutory roll. This does not cover milk 278 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. sugar alone, but all the additional by-products-work we have dis- cussed, including albumen, condensed milk, etc. Mr. Jonzs. That is in this amount you are asking for? Mr. Rawt. Yes. Mr. Jones. As I understand you, you think there is a possibility of taking out of the whey the albumen, the sugar that is taken—— Mr. Raw. Yes. Mr. Jones. Sugar is taken out? _Mr. Rawr. Yes. Quite a commercial product. ‘ Jones. I think you will find in late years it is used for child ood. Mr. Rawt. Yes. an Mr. Jonzs. I think all the leading child specialists aré 2 advocating it as a child food. ; Mr. Rawu. The condensed-milk business is another branch that needs investigation. Our production jumped up from less than a half million pounds in 1909 to 1,675,000,000 pounds in 1918. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. In what year was the half million? Mr. Rawu. That was 1909. We produced a great deal of condensed milk during the war and a great deal of it was imperfect. The Cuatrman. The war had something to do with the demand, didn’t it? Mr. Rawt. Yes. The Cuarrman. Will the demand keep up? Mr. Rawt. The demand has kept up to date in a surprising way, very much more than we expected, but we are unable to tell what it will do in the future. A lot of the condensed milk landed in Europe was spoiled and a lot here has spoiled. We ought to do a lot more work on condensed. milk. It is a big industry and numerous intricate problems are involved. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Condensed milk was made all right and kept all right many, many years ago. Have they forgotten how to do it? Mr. Rawu. No. They have always had losses. Mr. Jones. I think the war created such a demand for condensed milk that a lot of people who didn’t know how to make it went into the business. Mr. Raww. That is true. There have been for many years some flarebacks with the very best manufacturers in this country. One of the defects in condensed milk is known as “ buttons.” On opening a can of condensed milk a little button would be found. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. What does that indicate? Mr. Rawu. Such milk is unsaleable. It is due to a mould. We think we are getting at the cause of it. There is a tremendous possibility for usefulness along these lines in building and strengthening the dairy industry and our agriculture as well. Developing these processes with increased efficiency will make the products cheaper to the consumer. I don’t believe from what we know about Roquefort cheese, for example, that it will be necessary for the consumer to continue to pay the high price per pound that he does at present. But isn’t it just to assume that the more we learn about improved methods the safer the business can be made and ultimately the more economically conducted ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 279 The Cuairman. Will you tell us something about casein ? Mr. Rawu. We have made quite extensive investigations on casein, directed primarily to the use of buttermilk, because buttermilk was a big by-product with us, and the sweet milk formerly used in mak- ing the better grade of casein is too valuable a food. Our interests have been to save sweet milk to eat and to manufacture it into some- thing for that purpose, like powder, milk sugar, and albumen. The CuarrmAn. You say it is a good, wholesome product? Mr. Rawt. Good skimmed milk makes—— The Cuairman. J mean this casein. Mr. Raw. No; casein isn’t a food. Paper makers like to use casein made from sweet skim milk. Such milk is not cheap enough to make the manufacture of casein attractive. We have tried, there- fore, to develop a method for making good casein from buttermilk. We did a good deal of work during the war on making a casein for glue for aeroplane work. Considerable progress was made. The Cuarrman. Can you extract it from milk? Mr. Raw. No; if it is removed from milk there is nothing but whey left. It is the substance of which cheese is made, taken out and dried. A large amount of our casein has been imported. The Cuarrman. Milk contains 4 per cent of casein, does it not? _ Mr. Rawt. Yes. Casein once dry is as hard as ivory. It is used for making glues, but’ more largely, perhaps, for glazing papers. -The paper glazers have never taken very kindly to our buttermilk product. The manufacture of casein has not been an attractive busi- ness here under normal conditions ordinarily, because the price is too low to make the kind that the user wants. Does that answer your question, Mr. Chairman ? The Cuarrman. Do they mix much casein with butter? Mr. Rawt. That isn’t the general practice. Of course, it is illegal. The Cuarrman. Butter has some casein in it? 7 Mr. Rawt. Yes. The Cuarrman. About one-half per cent? Mr. Rawt. No. The Cuarrman. One and one-half or 2 per cent? Mr. Rawu. One and one-half or 2 per cent. The Cuarrman. Could any considerable amount be added. to butter ? Mr. Rawt. It could be added. The Cuairman. That would detract from the palatability of it, would it not? Mr. Rawn. Yes; it would result in a poor quality and would be classed as adulterated. ; The Crarrman. And practically nothing is being done with it? Mr. Rawz. No; we hear of cases in which milk powder was added to butter, but this is not honest business. The Cuarrman. What is it worth a pound? Mr, Rawt. Before the war it was worth about 7 or 8 cents. Dur- ing the war it ran up to about 22 or 23 cents. The Cuarrman. It would lessen the cost of butter? Mr. Raw. Yes. If anybody could put it in and get by with it he could make money. The Cruarrman. What is the observation with reference to casein? 280 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Raw. If we could make casein out of a product like butter- milk that would be good enough for glazing paper a lot of people would make it. At present the paper makers want a casein made from skim milk, which is too valuable to be used for this purpose. We have a product that is good made of buttermilk, but the paper makers are slow in using it. The Bureau of Standards says it is entirely satisfactory and gave good results in glazing paper, but the paper maker hasn’t yet been willing to accept it. Casein is a cheap by-product from a plant making other things. The Cuairman. How about the $5,000 for dairy experiment work in the Western States? Mr. Rawx. We would like to use some of these funds for develop- ing cheese making in the Rocky Mountain region. The Cuarrman. That has reference to Roquefort cheese? Mr. Rawt. No. The Cuarrman. What cheese do you begin with? Mr. Rawu. Usually we begin with cheddar, the simplest style of American cheese. After they gain experience they can learn to make other cheeses. Mr. Hurcuinson. You said a while ago you would investigate the price of making butter. Mr. Rawt. That should come from the Bureau of Markets. That bureau can give you these butter prices for every day in the year. Mr. Hurcuinson. I notice here in the last’ part of this item “ For all necessary expenses for investigational and experimenting in dairy industry, coperative investigations of the dairy industry, in the vari- ous States,” these words “inspection of renovated butter factories and markets,” etc. Mr. Rawu. Those words have been in there a long time; “ reno- vating butter factories and markets.” A clause under the oleomar- garine act covers the work we do with renovated butter, the approval of cartons, inspection of factories, and the collecting and testing of samples found on the markets. It is done through the meat-inspec- tion service largely whenever there is meat inspection in: the town where there is a renovating butter factory. Mr. Hurcuinson. You don’t go to the butter prices at all? Mr. Raw. No. I would suggest that you secure from the Bureau of Markets a statement on butter because they can do it so much more readily than we can. The Cuarrman. What is the next item? Mr. Rawt. That is all I think of, sir. I might add this in closing: The dairy industry of this country is of enormous importance. The amount of money we are asking for dairying, $390,800, is small com- pared to the size of the industry and its relation to the public wel- fare. I have told you something of the results secured. We desire to continue and to extend our research. This increase is needed also, in order that more men can be available to aid the factories in applying the methods of which I have been speaking. Mir. TanOnIN BO, You cooperate with the county agents? Mr. Raw. We cooperate with everybody who will cooperate with us. I feel so keenly what dairying means economically and what it means to agriculture that it seems to me after all the department’s activities the funds devoted to dairying are comparatively small when the great work involved is so significant. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL, 281. The Cuarrman. There is plenty to be done in the cheese market. . ra to congratulate you on your success with this Roquefort. cheese. Mr. Rawu. That is the first that has been made commercially. (Thereupon, at 5.45 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 o’clock: Wednesday morning.) Tuurspay, Decemper 11, 1919. AFTER RECESS. The committee reassembled at 2 o’clock p. m., pursuant to recess.. The Cuarrman. The committee will come to order. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Rommel, Chief of the Division of Animal: Husbandry, is here, and he will present the item which appears on page 51. You will recall that we passed over that item when Dr.. Mohler was before the committee. The Cuarrman. Is Dr. Mohler through with his statement? Mr. Harrison. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Then we will hear from you, Dr. Rommel, if yow. are ready. STATEMENT OF MR. GEORGE M. ROMMEL, CHIEF OF THE ANIMAL. HUSBANDRY DIVISION, BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY. Mr. Rommen. Mr. Chairman, what sort of procedure do you wish: me to follow? The Cuairman. Make any statement that you may have to make- in general, and when we reach the various items we may have some. questions to ask you. If you have a statement that you prefer to- make, make it in your own way as to the work and results attained and what information you can give the committee that will be of interest and value. Mr. Rommev. The work of the Animal Husbandry Division is con-- fined to research work on live-stock. production, and to extension. work in cooperation with the States Relations Service covering the- lines of live-stock production, especially meat animals. We also have charge of the work of encouraging the breeding of” horses for military purposes, conducted in a very small experimental! way. The work also covers research and extension work in poultry: husbandry. That in a broad general way is the scope of the Animal Hus-. bandry Division. I can go into that in just as much detail as you desire, sir, or I can confine my remarks to the items in the estimate ;- just as you wish, The Cuarrman. Did I understand you to say in cooperation with. the States Relations Service ? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman, You might state how you cooperate with them.. Mr. Romme.. That is in the extension work, in the organization of pig clubs, in the beef cattle demonstration work in the South,. in the farm sheep demonstration work, and in the poultry club work. Our work in the organization of pig clubs is gradually becoming” work in swine husbandry. We cooperate with the States Relations. 282 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Service in this way: We have our men who devote their entire time to the extension work. They are stationed in the Animal Husbandry Division, and work through the States Relations Service, and through them with the agricultural colleges. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. How many men have you in that kind of work? Mr. Rome. I can’t tell you exactly, Mr. McLaughlin. It is probably 50 or 60 all together, including the men in swine husbandry, in poultry, in sheep demonstration, and in beef cattle work in the South. I can give you that exactly after consultation with the rec- ords, if you wish it. ie McLaveuutn of Michigan. Can you tell us how they do that work? Mr. Rommev. Yes, sir. Those men work through the extension divisions of the agricultural colleges—the men who are stationed in the field—and those are 90 per cent of the men that are employed. They are stationed at the agricultural colleges and are part and par- cel of the extension divisions of the agricultural colleges. Mr. McLavucuurn of Michigan. What do they do? Mr. Romme.. They give the information which a specialist can give on the problems of live-stock production in their particular field. For example, the sheep specialist in Michigan will act as the adviser of the country agents in the State and farmers as to prob- lems of sheep production in that State. His field is to cover the en- tire range of production from the matters of breeding, feeding, para- site control, marketing wool, etc. Many of these extension specialists in sheep husbandry have exerted a powerful influence in the last two years in improving the conditions of disposing of the product. For example, our specialist in Iowa also acts as secretary of the State | Association of Sheep Growers, and one of the things that these peo- ple have done in the last two years is to bring about a combination method of selling their wool. They have not yet combined on lambs, but they have on wool, and instead of the. sheep growers of Iowa being dependent on the local wool buyer, who pays him what he thinks the wool is worth, the wool is pooled and sent to market in carload lots and brings what it is actually worth on the market. Mr. McLaucuutn of Michigan. Is the man that works up this mar- keting proposition the expert on sheep diseases? Mr. Rommet. No, sir; he is an expert on sheep husbandry. That is one of his problems. Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. You spoke about the sheep dis- eases—parasites. Mr. Rommen. That is one of the things that those men have to be up on, on the management of sheep in order to control parasites. The control of parasites in sheep, stomach worms, and things of that sort is as much a matter of management as it is anything else. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. You spoke of sheep diseases; that is one of the diseases of sheep, isn’t it? , Mr. Rome. Yes; but he is not specially an expert in sheep dis- eases. That is not his specialty; his specialty is sheep as a whole, and he has to be up on these other problems as well, the control of sheep diseases, the methods of marketing, and things of that sort. Mr. McLauenuin of Michigan. Do you have an expert for each disease ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 283 Mr. Rommen. We have no experts on diseases in the Animal Ifus- bandry division. The Cuarrman. Who looks after that end of it? Mr. Rommen. The Zoological Division are studying especially the question of sheep parasites. What we are studying is the matter of management of sheep, the rotation of pastures, and things of that sort, in order to prevent infection. _ The Cuarrman, Are we to understand that you have a man sta- tioned at each State college? Mr. Rommex. Not at each college, no, sir. The Cuatruan. How many have you? Mr. Rommet, As I recall it, there are 15 specialists in sheep hus- bandry. Iam speaking now from memory. I can check these for the record from our records. ~ The Cuairman. Does he devote his time to instruction ? Mr. Rommen. He is on the extension staff of the college, in the ex- tension division. The Cuarrman. Is he paid out of Government funds? Mr. Rommet. He is paid partly out of Government funds and partly out of State funds. The States, as a rule, pay the traveling expenses of these men. We pay part or all of the salaries. They pay in many cases a small addition to what we pay in the way of salaries. For example, we pay a man $1,380, but you can’t get an experienced man for $1,380. The State may in such an instance add enough more to get an experienced specialist. The Cuarrman. Does he travel over the State or is he instructing the students? Mr. Romumet. He visits the county agents and the farm bureaus, bringing the information and expert advice directly home to the farm bureaus. The Cuairman. The county agents are not at State colleges; they are out in the counties. Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. I wouldn’t have a specialist in extension work in a State who spent his whole time at the seat of the agricul- tural college. The specialist must get out over the State and get into contact with the farmers. That is where he does his valuable work. The Cuamman. He spends part of his time at the college and part of his time in the field. Mr. Romaurer. Quite so. He spends just enough of his time in the college to keep in touch with his office work. We require weekly reports from these men, and they have to show in those reports where they have spent the time during the preceding week. A man that spends more than two days in the week at the college is regarded as spending too much time in one place. I should say these men spent probably an average of two days a week at the college, and the rest of the time is spent out in the State. Mr. McLavcuturn of Michigan. And the work of one of these men covers all the domestic animals? Mr. Rommen. No, sir; these men, as a rule, are specialists in one particular class of stock. One man will be a specialist in sheep hus- bandry; another will be a specialist in swine husbandry; another one will specialize on beef cattle; another one will specialize in poultry. 284 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Isn’t there a man at each one of the colleges, or there part of the time, and other places part of the time, respecting each kind of animal? Mr. Rommer. You mean have we men of that kind? You mean has the department ? Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Has the department? Mr. Rome. No, sir. Me McLaveuun of Michigan. How many different ones have you? Mr. Rommen. We have in one or two States as many as three. There is no State that I recall right now that has more than three of these specialists from our pay roll. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. This is of your bureau? Mr. Romnet. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveuuiy of Michigan. At a college where you have three of these men, what does the work of each one cover? Mr. Rommen. The State that I particularly have in mind has a beef-cattle man, a sheep specialist, and a swine specialist. Mr. McLaveututn of Michigan. And how many States have three? Mr. Rommeu. Mississippi, Missouri, and Tennessee each have three. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Do several have two? Mr. Rommet. Oh, yes; several have two. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. And how many have you al- together ? : Mr. Rommen. I can’t answer you that exactly. There are between fifty and sixty, I should say, quoting simply from memory. I can verify that for the record if you wish. Mr. McLaveniin of Michigan. There would be several States, quite a number of them, in which no men of that kind are em- ployed? Mr. Rommet. Yes, indeed. We have not been able to meet the demand for these men at all. They are asking us for more assist- ance along this line than we are possibly able to render. The Cuarrman. The table on page 53 indicates that you employ 101, and 17 more would make 118 people. Mr. Rommex.. The total number of men employed in the division at the present time, including laborers and clerks, is 174. That is shifting more or less from time to time. Of these 174 men, there are 41 in Washington, 133 in the field. Twenty-two of these men are technical employees in Washington. The Cuarrman. Are they paid out of your funds? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; they are paid out of the appropriation for the animal husbandry division. The Cuairman. Part by your division and part by the States Relations Service? Mr. Rommen. The States Relations Service does not pay anything toward their salaries. Some of these men in the field are paid by the State Smith-Lever fund—the State funds. The Cratrman. The salaries indicated on page 52—are those the total salaries paid ? Mr. Rommext. Approximately. The Cuarrman. Are they paid by the State also? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 285 i Rommet. No; the salaries paid by States are not indicated there. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. These are the amounts, then, that are contributed by you? Mr. Romme.. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. As a portion of the salaries? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. As a portion or as a whole of the salaries? Do they get any salary outside of what is indicated here? Mr. Rommen. Some of these cooperative extension men get money from State sources. _ The Cuarrman. Aside from the salaries indicated on page 52? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. We should know how much. Mr. Rommet. I can furnish that to you. The Cuairman. We would like to have it now or have it before we make up the bill. What are the salaries paid them? Mr. Romme.. In addition to that? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Rome. I could only guess at that now, Mr. Chairman. I could furnish that to you by to-morrow morning. The Cuairman. Do you prefer to wait until to-morrow morning with your testimony, or will you go on now and bring it in to-morrow ? Mr. Rommet. I am at your disposal. I am ready to go ahead now if you like, or I can appear again to-morrow morning. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. I suppose none of these men get a they: are entitled to. None of the wages seem to be very big. The Cuatrman. That all depends on what is paid by others. Mr. McLaveutun of Michigan. Yes; I was going to say, but _ if he is paid another salary in addition to the one he gets here— and what is that rule about $2,000? Mr. Harrison. He can not receive more than $2,000 from the Gov- ernment. That does not apply to State funds. Mr. McLaueututn of Michigan. But some of that money he gets in the State is Federal money. Mr. Harrison. It becomes State money after it goes to the State, but of course we have authority to consider and approve projects and to check expenditures. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Oh, is that the way you figure it? Mr. Harrison. The money available under the Smith-Lever Act is paid over to the State. The Cuarrman. How many do you have? Mr. Harrison. I could not answer that question offhand, Mr. Haugen. There are many cooperative arrangements throughout the department. It is my recollection that this matter has been discussed before the committee for several years, and I think it has been made clear that, in many instances, we have cooperative arrangements with the States by which we pay a part of the salaries of some of our employees and the States pay the remainder. And the commit- tee has been fostering the idea of cooperation. The Cairn. But the book should indicate the amounts paid. 286 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Harrison. Those tables indicate the expenditures by the De- partment of Agriculture. The CHairman. We have been told that they indicate the salaries paid by the department. Mr. Harrison. That is what they do indicate. The Cuarrman, There are other additional salaries paid. Mr. Harrison. But we do not pay them. The Cuairman. The salaries are paid and we are supposed to know what the salaries are. Mr. McKintey. Would the department really know ? Mr. Harrison. Our records show the total compensation received by our cooperative employees, but the form of these tables, as I ex- plained the other day, is prescribed by the Treasury Department under a law passed by Congress. We are required to indicate the alte we pay to our employees, not what somebody else pays to them. The Cuarrman. This table here should indicate part salary at least. It ought to give that information. °* Mr. Harrison. There isn’t anything like that. All the cooperative salaries are entirely reasonable. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Whether the law is a good one or not, that forbids a man to receive more than $2,000 in the aggregate of combined salaries, it would seem to me that when he receives money out of that Smith-Lever fund after it reaches the State, that is pretty nearly Federal money, and the receipt of that contrary to that rule providing for the $2,000 is an evasion of the law, in my judgment. Mr. McKintey. Mr. McLaughlin, isn’t it a fact that some of these county agents get as much as $5,000 a year? Mr. Harrison. One or two of them get $6,000, but the local authori- ties put up practically all the money. Mr. McKinuzy. And part of that money comes from the Lever. fund. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Lots of them don’t get any pay - from the Federal Treasury at all. I am talking about a man that is.on the Federal roll. Mr. McKiniey. But a part of them do get State aid. We are paying a man $5,000 a year, while the Government is only paying $1,200 out of it. ; Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. That comes out of the Lever fund. Mr. Harrison. We pay a part of the salary of a number of county agents, Mr. McLaughlin, out of the extension funds provided in this bill. ‘The Cuarrman. The situation is this: This is Government money. We pay the money over to the colleges and they pay that money here. Mr. McKintey. You think the wording should be “part pay- ment ”? The Cuarrman. We ought to have the information as to the sal- aries paid. ; Mr. Harrison. We shall be only too glad to give the committee all the information it desires about them. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 287 The CHairman. We ought to write into the law just exactly what the salaries are. We will discuss that later, if you will furnish a list of the salaries paid, and other information on the subject. Mr. Rommev. Yes, sir. And I wish to say before we pass this, Mr. Chairman, in fairness to the department, that this matter is handled something in this way: An extension director will say, “Here, I have $1,200 that I can pay toward an animal husbandry “specialist; how much can you add to that in order to enable us to get a good man? Can you add enough for us to get a man that we can hire for $2,400?” Ordinarily we can. aie CuairMAN. They add $1,200; where does the $1,200 come from? Mr. Rome. It comes from State funds. The Cuarrman. Where do the State funds come from? Mr. Rommet. It comes from State funds. The Cuairman. But where do the State funds come from? They come from the Public Treasury, do they not? Mr. Rommet. They may; they may not. None of these men that I am speaking about now, so far as I know, receive $2,400. We had one man on the rolls last year that was receiving $2,750, all vf which we paid. Twenty-four hundred dollars is the usual max1- mum limit, and we are losing these men all the time. We are having resignations constantly from our force, and how are we going to hold them ? : Mr. McLavcuun of Michigan. I said that was an evasion of the law. I don’t know that it is, but it is interesting to know it, that men carried on this roll, receiving different amounts of money, are also on State rolls, receiving some money; that they have a di- vided allegiance; and whether that is right or not, or profitable or not, I don’t know, but that is the situation. ‘ The Cuarrman. How many extension men have you? How. many should be added to what we appropriate for for the States Relations Service ? Mr. Rome. I can’t tell you exactly. I will have to furnish that information after I have checked with the records. I think it is be- tween 50 and 60. (A statement regarding salaries of employees engaged coopera- tively by the department and by States follows:) Animal Husbandry Division. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION EMPLOYEES. Ba 4 : ureau crease Salary, y Total as State. Name. of 7 | comnen- Appropriaticn. Animal | State. | Sstion, | Salary. Prop! Industry. Alabama........ K. G, Baker....} $1,800 Livestock demonstration. J.C. Ford.....-. 1,680 000 | Pig clubs. Arkansas.......- L. I. Case...... 1,380 Live stock demonstration. J. H. McLeod 1. 1,800 5 Pig clubs. Colorado........ J. T. Tingle..... 1 B00 Pewacemnens $240 1,740 0. ’ Connecticut..... A. G. Skinner... 900 900 |ecececeees 1, 800 i sheep demonstra- ion. Florida....-..-- W. Hz. Black.... 2,000 300 |..-.------ 2,300 | Live stock demonstration. Georgia......-- ..| J. E..Downing..|, 1,920 800 |...-.-. 2.,| ' 2,220°| Pig clubs. ied C, E, Kellogg...) 1,380 800 Yo cse cece, 1,680 | Live stock demonstration. 1 Resigned effective Dec. 31, 1919. 288 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Animal Husbandry Division—Continued. COOPERATIVE EXTENSION EMPLOYEES—Continued. a I “ ureau. - nerease: Salary, Total . State. Name. of ? | compen- Appropriation. Animal | State. | ‘sation. | Salary. HEE ‘Industry. TAA co cciccc semen E, F, Rinehart.. $2,640 on sheep demonstra- ‘ion. Allinois.......... C. W.Crawford.. 1,800 Do. ndiana........- Claude Harper. . 2,520 Do. J. R. Wiley..... 2,400 | Pig clubs. TOW cee cisweee C. P, Earle...... 1,740 Poultry clubs, Tom C. Stone...| 2,240 i sheep demonstra- ss 2,400 2,000 Poultry clubs. 2,400 | Pig clubs, 2,100 Do. Louisiana....... J. B, Francioni, 2,000 Do. jr. ' G. P. Williams... 2,240 ie sheep demonstra- ion. Maine..........- L, S, Cleaves.... 1,500 Do. ‘Maryland.......| 8. 8. Buckley... 2,440 | Pig clubs. “Massachusetts...) H. E. Haslett... 1,800 bit sheep demonstrae ion. ‘Minnesota....... L. H. Fudge.... 1,800 |.....--... 240 2,040 | Pig clubs, “Mississippi... ... G. L. Bigford... 1, 500 500 |..----.6. 2,000 | Farm sheep demonstra- ‘ion. E. E, Elliott... 600 1,200 |...-.... 7 1,800 | Livestock demonstration. C. J. Goodell... 1, 800 BDO asttrcormine 2,400 0. ‘Missouri.,....../ G. W. Hackett... 1-740 || nisiseisiwre cise 240 1,980 | Poultry clubs, | W.L-R. Perry.. 1,500 |.-........ 240 1,740 Do. D. A. Spencer... 1,800 200 |..-..-6.-- 2,000 ae sheep demonstra- ion. ‘Nebraska......- M. B. Posson.... 21000 |cerrscniees tuceececte 2,000 | Pig clubs. New York...... M. J. Smith..... 1,500 TOD |oscsw winnie 2, 250 ho sheep demonstra- ion. North Carolina..| R. S, Curtis..... 1,200 1,300 |..-..--... 2,500 | Pig clubs. George Evans... 1,200 600 |..--.-260- 1,800 ion sheep demonstra- A. G, Oliver. ... 1,500 900 tsar wec 2,200 Poultry clubs, W. W. Shay.... 1, 1,740 | Pig clubs. : J. ee Sloss... 1, 2,000 | Livestock demonstration. Oklahoma... ....) C. 1, 2,100 | Poultry clubs. Oregon.....-.... 1) 1,800 | Pig clubs. South Carolina. . 1, 2,040 | Livestock demonstration. . H. Wilkins. . 1, 2,320 | Poultry clubs. ‘Tennessee....... R. P. Hite.....: 2, 2,240 ie sheep demonstra- R. M. Murphy. - 1 2,496 Livestock demonstration. L. A. Richardson 1 » 2,540 Texas........... Max W. Coll.... 1 2,000 Farm “sheep demonstra- Edwin Houston! 2 4,240 | Pig clubs. ~ ‘West Virginia...| E. L. Shaw..... 2 2,240 oc sheep demonstra- 100. COOPERATIVE RESEARCH EMPLOYEES , Arkansas..i+<++ A.T, Semple...] $1,800 |........-- $240 | $2,040| Beef cattle investigations. Mississippi. Andrew Carter... 72 720 0. J. W. Dill....... 1,200 Do. S. W. Greene... 1, 620 Do. ‘ 8. 8. Jerdan..... 2,280 Do. W. T. Smith.... 840 Do. > PIONS. «.ockstend E, W. Thomas... 1,500 1,740 Do. , Montana... -| R. E, Gongwer,. 1,380 |........-- 240 1,620 | Western investigations. North Carolina..| F. T. Peden:.... 1,380 |..-......- 240 1,620 | Beef cattle investigations. West Virginia... R. H. Tuckwiller| 1,200 |...-.....- 240 1,440 0. Wryoming....... W. 4H. Allen. ..- GOO)" winiare wisiersicie |permcioressrasnne 600 | American utility horses. James Hutton... 1,380. ccccise-ce, 240 1,620 Do. 1 Resigned, effective Dec. 31, 1919. Mr. Romoet. I will take up the items, if you wish, that call for increases in the estimates. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 289 The first one of those items appears on page 51, under the note “A,” and item of $75,000 for encouraging live-stock production in the Great Plains region. That item was put in as an outgrowth of cur experience in the drought of the past four years in the West, and the purpose of it is right along the lines of this extension mat- ter that we have been discussing, to place live-stock experts on the extension staffs of the agricultural. colleges of the plains States, in order to bring about a development of the farming in that region which will stabilize it. We have a number of experiment stations in that country at which a certain amount of work is being done of an experimental character relating to live stock. The Cuarrman. Will you give the number of those? Mr. Rommen. That is not my province. Dr. Taylor is here and can give you that exactly. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. What is that? Mr. Rome. Dry land and western irrigation agricultural sta- tions—the number of stations. We have some live-stock experi- mental work at. Huntley, Mont., at Belle Fourche, 8. Dak., at Scotts Bluff, Nebr., and at Ardmore, S. Dak. Those are the only stations at which we are doing any experimental work. The number of dry- land stations—I will have to turn that over to Dr. Taylor. Now, the farming situation in the Great Plains region, from the best study that we have been able to make of it—and I personally have been in pretty close touch with it for the last three years on account of the relief work necessitated by the western drought—the farming in the dry-land country will never be stable until it is based upon live stock. The man who goes out there and attempts to farm in that section without having live stock as his basis is going to be up against starvation sooner or later. That was true in Texas; it is true in Montana, and is true of any other strictly dry-farming region. Mr, McLaveutin of Michigan. I would think that two kinds of farming would go together. . Mr. Rommet. You would think so, but they have not yet done it. That is exactly what we hope to drive home to those people. ; Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. It ig a difficult proposition to main- tain live stock unless the crops are sufficient to feed them. ; Mr. Rommet. The crops can be grown for live-stock production. The average dry farmer has specialized on grain production, and when he faces a period of drought such as the Montana farmers have just come through, such as the Texas farmers went through in 1916, 1917, and 1918, if that man hasn’t balanced his farming in such a way that live stock is the basis of it, he will have to move out or starve to death. : : Mr. McLavucuuin of Michigan. He must make his crops to suit the live stock, then, partly? Mr. Rommen. Quite so; partly. In other words, he has to have some form of income and some form of food other than that from grain production. The Cuarrman. What do you suggest to the farmers there? Mr. Romme.. My suggestion is that they start with a little bunch of cows that they can milk, so that they can have milk and butter, and cheese, possibly; that they have a little flock of chickens; that they try to get off of the farm enough to keep the family alive. 164315—20——19 290 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Now, in order to do that, they have to have feed stored up, Mr. Chairman, to cover the periods of scarcity. Fortunately, some of the Texas people are doing that right now. There are men in west Texas that put up a two years’ supply of feed this year. The result is they can put by in the years of plenty a sufficient supply of feed to carry their live stock over the years of scarcity, and they won't have to sacrifice it. The farmers in Montana, on the other hand, many of them settled on their farms right in the face of this three years’ drought, and they have never been able to put up any feed or grow enough to support their live stock. They were dependent entirely on their wheat, and when the drought came, and they didn’t raise any wheat, they had nothing with which to keep their live stock, and they had to sacrifice it. Many of them had to move out. The Cuarrman. Have you any suggestions as to increased pro- duction ? Mr. Rommet. Increased production? _ The Cuarrmay. Is it simply a storage proposition ? Mr. Rome. It is very largely a storage proposition. It is also the proper relationship of the crops that are planted. The Cuatrman. What do you suggest in the way of crops in those sections? Mr. Rommet. In Montana one of the best crops that they grow there is good old-fashioned corn. That is one of the best crops for livestock. ‘ The Crarrman. Can they grow corn up there? Mr. Rome. They had it last year. It was not only cold, but it was dry, but many farmers had corn last year sufficient to produce a certain amount of forage, in spite of the drought. As you go fur- ther down you get into sections where they can raise the grain sor- ghums. ilet helps—anything that will grow will help. Sun- flowers are one of the promising crops in Montana. The Cuairman. It takes moisture. Mr. Rommen. They are growing them out there on the dry farms, and that is one of the most promising crops that they have. If there is sufficient moisture in the spring to bring them up, they will make some sort of forage. The great problem in that whole dry farming country is for a man to raise ae to live on. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. How many men have you had in Montana doing that kind of work? Mr. Rommen. We haven’t had any, I am sorry to say. We have no men in Montana. We had some men out there on the emergency work, moving live stock last summer, but they were only temporary. We have no men whatever on the live-stock extension work in the Great Plains. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Haven’t the States had some men there? Mr. Rommet. The States have done a little work along that line— not very much. The Cuarrman. How much land would be required for a family? Mr. Romme.. That question is one that the classification board of the Geological Survey is trying to answer now in regard to the 640-acre grazing homesteads. I don’t believe that anyone can answer that question. It may be, in some sections, 320 acres. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 291 The Cuarrman. Generally speaking, in these sections where you have your stations? Mr. Rommet. The average farms in those sections run around 320 acres. ca Cuarrman. How many head of cattle can be kept on the 320 acres ? Mr. Rommeu. They don’t keep any cattle'on most dry farms in Montana. That is the trouble. I don’t know that I can answer that question. I don’t know that anybody could answer it. The CuairMAn. Have .you been experimenting with stock out there? Mr. Rommer. We have in one place, at Ardmore, 8. Dak. We are running experiments there to determine the carrying capacity of the range. We are running cattle in lots of various sizes, on pastures of various sizes, running one to 10 acres, one to 5 acres, one to 20 acres, and so forth. The Cuairman. You are getting away from the dry region when you speak about one head to the acre, aren’t you? Mr. Rome. One head to the acre? I said one head to 10 acres, or one to 5, or one to 20. The carrying capacity of the range varies from one to 10 acres to one to 50 acres. The Cuarrman. You mean it would require from 10 to 20 acres, then, for one head? Mr. Rommex. That would be a pretty safe estimate; yes, sir—a pretty safe estimate to make. i ie Cuairman. That would be about 16 head to half a section of ancl. Ses Rommet. If those were cows they would be in pretty fair shape. The Cuarrman. You contend that a family could live on that number of head, 16 head of cattle? Mr. Rommeu. They could keep from starving to death; yes, sir. The CHarmman. Would it not be better to educate them to get out of that country, rather than to stay there and starve to death? Mr. McKinuey. Isn’t that the country that Mr. Lane is going to put our soldiers into, that type of country? ; Mr. Rommet. No; I wouldn’t care to say that. Mr. Lane should answer that question. Mr. McLaveutin, of Michigan. I don’t think he is. Mr. Rommet. I wish, Mr. Chairman, you would not get the im- pression that I have any motive in this matter except to try to keep those people from starving where they are. I am not condoning anvone; I am not discussing the motives that took those people into that country; I am discussing the fact of their being there. The Cuarrman. I have been through that country, I confess that I have great sympathy for them, and if there is any way of helping them I would be very glad to do it. A good many of our people have gone into that country, and unfortunately have not been able to get out; I have said a number of times that the Government is responsible in a way for them being out there, which is very unfortu- nate. Now, if there is something we can do for them, we want to do it, but if we are encouraging them to stay without assisting them, or simply assisting to keep them alive, it does not seem to me to be a very good proposition. 292 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommegn, I want to say right here, Mr. Chairman, that I am not encouraging them to stay there. ‘ The Cuarrman. You may discover something that may be of some value to them some day. Mr. Rommet. J want to tell you a story. I have been right in the homes of these people and I know what they are up against. I have seen them in Texas and I have seen them in Montana, and the things they told me last summer in Montana were enough to stir any man’s soul. One fellow came to me and said this: “Mr. Rommel, when I came into this country I had $6,000 in hard money. It is all gone. Now I am going to stick as long as I have my clothes.” I looked that fellow in the eye, and I said, “ By Jove, you are worth helping, if you will fight this thing out.” Mr. McLaveutin, of Michigan. He was, if there was any prospect of success. The Cuarrman. That is where the argument comes in, whether there is any prospect of success. Mr. Smiru, of Idaho. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? 1 happen to represent a part of the country to which Mr. Rommel refers. Ten years ago the eastern part of Idaho was considered a desert, but under the systematic plan of farming they have been able _ up in that eastern part toward Yellowstone Park to raise anywhere from 10 to 40 bushels of wheat per acre, and it is simply a good demonstration of what is being accomplished by the scientific methods that have been worked out by the Department of Agricul- ture with reference to the western country which, as I say, in years gone by was considered a desert, but many of the people now are very prosperous, It is true that up in Montana they have had a great drought and the people are hard up, but it is no reason why they should abandon the country. The Cuarrman. No; we should not abandon the whole country; but I believe that that country was intended for grazing rather than for farming. If there is some way of helping them I will be very glad to help them. I have been through that country. Nearly every year I go out there. As I said, I have a good deal of sympathy for the people out there. Mr. Jones. Is that man still living? Mr. Rommet. Yes; he is living, because the men in Montana in the banking business and in the mercantile business there are standing behind those people. They believe that the thing to do is to stand behind them and to see them through, and that if they can take a man that has that kind of spirit and carry him through they think he will ultimately be in a position to make a crop: That is what they are bet- ting on, and the weather records indicate that they can expect rain- fall next year. There is no case on record until this year where there were three dry years in succession in that north Montana country. The CuarrMan. But in your opinion what can be done for them? Mr. Rommet. My opinion is that we should go out there, study their problems, study their agriculture, and see if you can put their farming on a live-stock basis, because they are not going to make it go when they are simply trying to raise wheat. We know that. The Cuarrman. What hopes have you of doing something for them in the way of increasing production ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 293 Mr. Rommen. I have just the hope that we had for western Kan- sas, western Nebraska, and the western Dakotas. When I was a boy at home in Jowa, every year at Christmas time the good people in the churches got up a Christmas box of old clothes that we didn’t need. They particularly asked for clothes for the children, shoes and over- coats and caps and things of that kind. And where did that stuff go? You remember just as well as I do, Mr. Chairman. It went out to Kansas, and if you want to insult a Kansas man to-day just remind him of something of that kind. Kansas farmers are not in distress to-day because they have learned how to handle the farming on those lands and get by and make a living. Now we will have to work the same thing out in Montana. The Montana people think they are going through it now, and you know what happened to the west Texas people. Look what Texas has to-day. They have never had such grass conditions in the history of the State as they have had this year; yet a year ago you could travel for miles in Texas and see no grass anywhere, any more than there is on this table. The Cuairman. They have had droughts there practically three years in succession. Mr. Rommeu. Yes; but it started to raining and snowing in Texas just about a year ago and is still at it. The Cuarrman. You have hopes of improving conditions, then? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; absolutely. We believe that it can be done with live stock as the basis, and we believe people that have the courage and nerve of those people are worthy of-help. The Cuarrman. There is no question but that they are worthy, but what can we do for them? / Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. We often find, however, help being asked from the Federal Government when they ought to be helped by their own people. Now, this occurs to me, that if you send a man out there he has to be there long enough to learn conditions and study the climate and soil and be there some con- siderable time. Aren’t there people in the States there that could be engaged by the State, and who know those things now, who could go in there and do that work? Mr. Rommet. I would not send a man out there that did not know the conditions. I would not engage any man but a man who did know the conditions in the State. / Mr. McKintey. Your note here says this is to work in cooperation with the State. Mr. Romme.. Exactly. Most of the State people out there have unquestionably helped. They helped in many. ways that have not been particularly apparent. If the attitude of the bankers and the business men had been different from what it has been there would have been one string of failures after another all along the line of the Great Northern Healy in Montana. Mr. Harrison. Dr. Rommel, this is a regional problem and not merely a State problem. Dr. Rommen. Exactly. It extends from the Canada border to the Mexican line, over the entire Great Plains region, the entire dry- farming area. The next item, Mr. Chairman, in which there is an increase is a request for an increase of $37,000 for studying problems of beef 294 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. production. At the present time we are studying problems of beef production at Beltsville, Md., Lewisburg, W. Va., Canton, Miss., and McNeill, Miss.; at Springdale, N. C.; at Manhattan, Kans.; at Jonesboro, Ark.; and Indian Town, Fla. If this increase is granted it is proposed to consolidate the work . that we have been doing at Beltsville on beef production and the work we are doing at Canton, Miss., at the branch experiment sta- tion at McNeill, Miss. That station has been conducted for some 17 years by the State of Mississippi for the study of agricultural problems in south Mississippi. At the request of the Missisippi experiment station we took that over last spring. We placed a man in charge who is responsible to us and who is responsible to the director of the Mississippi experiment station. We share 50-50 in the cost of managing that station. That is to say, we pay the salaries and wages and they pay the other expenses. They con- tribute nothing toward the salaries of the men in charge. We plan to discontinue the work in beef production that we form- erly did at Beltsville and the work formerly done at Canton, Miss., and carry on that work at McNeill, Miss. McNeill is on the main line of the Southern about 58 miles from New Orleans. It is in the upper edge of the cut over pine country, and this also will be a regional station. The work that will be done there will cover a very large portion of the coastal plain, extending from east Texas well over into Georgia. The data that is obtained at McNeill will be ap- plicable to this territory, and I need hardly say here that one of the great problems in the development of the coastal plain is the ques- tion of the live stock problems pertaining to this development. The station at McNeill, as I have remarked, was established some 17 vears ago by the State of Mississippi. It was developed for the purpose of studying crop producing problems in that region ae begun before any serious attention was being paid to-live stetk problems anywhere in the South, and before any attention whatever was directed to the live stock possibilities of the coastal plain. The investigations of the animal husbandry division on beef production problems in the South began in 1904, and the proposed work at Mc- Neill is an outgrowth of work previously done. Not long ago the State of Mississippi established an agricultural high school at Pop- larville, about 12 miles from McNeill, and arranged to transfer the work the State had formerly done at McNeill to Poplarville. The authorities of the Mississippi Experiment Station suggested that they would like the department to join with them in cooperative live- stock investigations at the McNeill station. They proposed to turn in the station intact with all buildings, cattle, and sheep, if the de- partment would put a competent man in charge, and take care of other salaries and wages. They also offered access to all records collected at the station during its existence. The property turned into the cooperation by the State was 1,140 acres of land, with cattle, sheep, an office building, a superintendent’s cottage, laborers’ cottages, barns, silo, and farm machinery. Much of the property is already under fence. The department’s agreement with the State specifically provides that it “does not in any way obligate the Department of Agriculture to the purchase or rental of land.” The value of the State property turned into the project is conservatively estimated at AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 295 $18,000. This offer was so generous and attractive, and enabled the department so to increase the efficiency of its experimental work, that it was accepted on February 21, 1919. The experimental beef pro- duction work which had formerly been done in Mississippi was con- ducted on a privately owned farm, which does not always give the opportunity for complete control of the work which is desirable. The principal work of the station will be devoted to the study of problems underlying the development of the live stock farming and grazing possibilities of the coastal plain, using beef cattle principally, with sheep as an adjunct. Close cooperation will be maintained with the Bureau of Plant Industry in its forage investigations, and it is hoped that the bureau will find it possible to conduct experiments with pasture crops at the station. : During the present winter steers are being fed at McNeill to study the feeding value of velvet beans and the refuse of the sweet potato canneries. These steers are furnished by the Mississippi station for this work. Future studies will be planned to investigate the carry- ing capacity of native pastures, especially carpet grass, the effective establishment of carpet grass and other pastures on cut over lands, the feeding value of forage plants such as Japanese cane, Napier grass, Merker grass, etc. The department hopes that the station at McNeill may become known as a source of authoritative informa- tion on the live stock forage and pasture problems of a considerable portion of the coastal plain. The Cuairman. Is that a State station? Mr. Rome. It is a cooperative station. The Cuairman. What was it before you took it over? Mr. Romer. The title of the land is in the State. It was a branch station of the Mississippi Experiment Station. The Cuarrman, Is that the experiment station of Mississippi? Mr. Rommet. It is one of their branches; not the main station. ‘We pay salaries and wages. The Cuarrman. Before you took it over, what was it? Mr. Rome. They paid all the expenses then, so far as I know. ae Cuarrman. Out of funds contributed by the Federal Govern- ment ¢ Mr. Romer. I don’t know. I doubt that very much. I have always understood those Mississippi branch stations were main- tained by State appropriations. Mr. Canpuer. I think they are all maintained by State appropri- ations. The Cuarrman. You have a State station there. Mr. Canpier. The station at McNeill was established by the State and by an appropriation made by the State at the time, and I pre- sume it is kept up that way. The Cuarrman. Operated independently of Federal funds? Mr. Canpter. It is operated, so far as I know, independent of Federal funds. Mr. Rommen. That is my understanding, that it is operated en- tirely on State funds. y understanding is that the station at Starkville was the one that used Federal funds. The Cuarrman. The funds contributed by Mississippi now, are they out of the funds contributed by the Federal Government? 296 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rome. No, sir; they are out of State funds entirely. Mr. Canpier. The main station was at Starkville, Miss., at the Agricultural and Mechanical College. That is where the main agri- cultural station is located, and this is a branch station established by the State, and, of course, they get the information, I presume, through national channels, but they are supported by State appro- riation. The Cuarrman. Is this station a branch of that? Mr. Canpter. This first station I speak of, the main station, is located at the college and has been all the time. The Cuarirman. It is being maintained there now? Mr. Canpier. Yes. The Cuarrman, This is independent of that? Mr. Canpier. This is an independent station established by the State in the southern part of the State for the investigation of the peculiar conditions existing there. The Cuairman. This station, then, is similar to the one in Louisi- ana, a live stock station? Mr. Romer. Yes; somewhat. The Cuairman. Does that come under your jurisdiction? Mr. Romme:. I am on the committee. A committee is in charge of that. Mr. Rawl, Dr. Taylor, Dean Dodson, and myself are on that committee. The Cuarrman. Are all these stations in cooperation with the States? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. Do the States contribute funds toward their maintenance and operation? Mr. Rommen. All of them. The Cuairman. To which do you refer? Mr. Romme.. All this work is in cooperation with the States, ex- cept the one at Indian Town, Fla. That is independent of the State. The State is not contributing’ anything there. The Cuarrman. Then it is similar to the work conducted by the stations at the colleges, is it not? Mr. Rommet, It depends upon what you mean by “similar.” The Cuarrman. It is experimental work? Mr. Rommet. Yes; it is experimental work. This is experimental work we are discussing now. The Cuairman. That is a function of the State station. What I was interested in knowing was if the work is being duplicated and if we are establishing two stations in each State. Mr. Romme.. No; this work we are doing is not duplicating any work done by any State station. ; The Cuarrman. By what authority were these State stations es- tablished ? V3 4 Mr. Rommen. By the authority of an appropriation of Congress. The Cuarrman. Was it a general appropriation? a Mr. Rommen. The appropriation for general expenses of the Bu- reau of Animal Industry, animal husbandry. |. : The Cuarrman. There was no specific appropriation made for this particular project? : Mr. Rommen. May I read you the language of the appropriation: “For all necessary expenses for investigations and experiments in AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 297 animal husbandry ; for experiments in animal feeding and breeding, including cooperation with the State agricultural experiment sta- tions,” etc. The CHarrman. It is broad language. I know what the lan- guage is. a Mr. Rommen. That is the authority under which these stations were established. The Cuairman. According to that language, we have no check. You might purchase a whole county and put it all into one station, or go anywhere you might want to in the United States, or outside of the United States. Mr. Rommen. That might be done, but it is not likely. The Cuarrman. It has been customary heretofore, whenever you proposed to establish a new station, to bring the matter before Con- gress and get authority by Congress. I think most of these stations have been authorized by Congress. Mr, Rome. There has never been any authorization, Mr. Chair- man, except that contained in that appropriation bill. The Cuarrman. There was in Nebraska and a number of other stations. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. And the one in Louisiana. The Carman. One in Louisiana was authorized specifically. Mr. Hurcuinson. Doctor, I would like to ask you a question there. Is it necessary to have 4,000 ewes to experiment with? Is the Gov- ernment going into the sheep-raising business ? Mr. Rommet. May I defer the answer to that question until we get through with this question of beef production? I will go into that in just a moment. Mr. McLaueuiin of Michigan. I notice you are going to in- augurate a study of beef production in northern cut-over lands in Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. Whereabouts is that in Mich- igan ? Mr. Rommet. In the upper peninsula. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What counties? Mr. Romme.. The section that I. have heard most about is the section around—lI believe they call it Iron County, between Mar- quette and Menominee. That section came into the limelight last summer when we were moving cattle and sheep out of Montana. When the suggestion was first made that the department take hold of the relief work, the question of moving cattle into the northern Michigan and Wisconsin country was. brought up, and somewhere around 200,000 to 300,000 head of cattle and sheep were taken in there. Some cattle had been going into the northern peninsula country for some little time. Arizona cattle, for example, had been going right along, but last summer northwestern stock went in on a wholesale scale. Mr. McLavcuttn of Michigan. I know there were a great many sheep taken into Michigan; that there have been in the last two or three years. , The Cuarrman. A good many cattle went in, too. Mr. McLaveutn of Michigan. I did not know that they were put into the upper peninsula. Is this work to be in cooperation with the State college? 298 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommet. The State experiment station; yes, sir. Mr. McLavueuiin of Michigan. The State experiment station at Lansing ? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Did they suggest it? Did the people at the college suggest, it? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; those people all through that section have asked for experimental work. The colleges of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota are all anxious to have investigational work, study- iug the questions of production in that territory. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. For the purpose of cooperation with you in Michigan next year, how much Michigan money will be available? Mr. Rommet. The chances are there will not be very much Mich- igan money. The State of Michigan will probably provide the facil- ities, and they will probably expect the Government to furnish most of the funds, because ordinarily the States are not able to meet the department dollar for dollar. In a few cases they can, but that doesn’t alter the fact that it is a cooperation with the State experi- ment station. Mr. McLavcuurn of Michigan. That is one question that nat- urally arises—how much money is Michigan putting in? That would show Michigan’s interest in it. Mr. Rome. I can answer that better if we were able to make a definite proposition to Michigan. Mr. McLaucutin of Michigan. Of course, I suppose Michigan is like all the rest of the States, willing to have the Government come in and spend all the money it pleases; but when a State itself is asked to put up money, it sometimes balks, and I would like to know whether Michigan has asked for this in such a way as to in- dicate its willingness to put up money. Mr. Rommet. If you mean the Michigan experiment station, I will say we have no specific written request by the Michigan experiment station. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Where does it come from ? Mr. Rommet. From the people in the upper peninsula. The Cuarrman. Is it not a fact that you are encroaching upon the functions of the State and duplicating work done by these States? Mr. Rommet. I hope not. I was not aware that there was any experimental beef production work being conducted in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. Mr. Jones. These people from the upper peninsula, did they make any effort to have the State take any active part in the work? Mr. Rommet. I have not said and I am not aware that there was any experimental work in beef production. There is a station at Chatham, Mich., where they are doing some work with sheep and forage crops. ; Mr. Jones. I understood you to say it was the people of the upper peninsula that were urging the Federal Government to take an active part in this work. Mr. Romme.. Yes. Mr. Jonrs. Do you know whether these same people made any effort to secure the interest of the State in this line of work ? a AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 299 Mr. Rommet. They have done something along that line, and they have this branch station at Chatham. Mr. McLavcutin of Michigan. Is that a branch of the station at Lansing? Mr. Rommen. Yes. Mr. McLauveutin of Michigan. Under the same direction, is it? _ _ Mr. Rommen. Yes. They have a local man in charge—a man, by the way, that they hired away from us. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. You speak of cooperation with the station in Michigan, but you furnish the money and the station fur- nishes the facilities. What do those facilities consist of ? Mr. Rome . Land, buildings, animals, improvements. Mr. McLaveutix of Michigan. Have you seen this place yourself ? Mr. Rommeg.. Personally, I have not, I am sorry to say. I have not been through there. Several of our men went through there last summer, but I put in all my time in Montana. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Are the buildings you speak of owned by the State? Mr. Romme.. The buildings would be owned by the State; yes. The plant ought to be owned by the State. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. There are different kinds of land in the upper ‘peninsula, some very fine land and some light cut-over lands. The fact is that the average yield per acre of crops in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is higher than it is in the lower penin- stla. They have got fine farming country up there, over a very large part of the upper peninsula. I did not know that they were asking Federal aid to carry on some experiments. The Cuairman. Is it necessary for the Federal Government- to cover all this territory ? Mr. Rommex. The States are simply in this position, that they have got more demands for experimental work and extension work than they are able to meet with the funds at their command. The Cuarrman. You have that direct from the stations? Mr. Rommen. In many cases that is true. The Cuarrman. You stated that you had no request from the col- lege for the experiment station in Michigan? : Mr. Rommet. We have had no official request from the Michigan Experiment Station; no, sir; but we do know this, that the branch experiment station at Chatham, Mich., has not funds sufficient to study all the livestock problems in the upper peninsula. Mr. Harrison. Mr. Rommel, I think you ought to make it clear again that you are going to study regional problems, which are ap- plicable not only to the Peninsula of Michigan but to other States as well. : Mr. Rome. It applies also to northern Minnesota, and northern Wisconsin as well. Mr. Harrison. It has always been our policy not to study mere local problems within States. The Cuarrman. Congress has made provision for permanent an- nual appropriations to the States, and no duplication or new stations should be established without the authorization of Congress. Mr. Romme.. We appreciate that fact. The CuairMan. You appreciate it, but here is a case parallel with Mount Weather, with $200,000 invested without the knowledge of 306 -AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Congress or the committee. Here we find a new station without specific authority or knowledge of this committee or of Congress. I think Congress should authorize these stations specifically if they are made at all. Mr. Rommet. I beg pardon, Mr. Chairman, but I feel that I ought to take exception to that remark, if I may. I have been coming be- fore this committee for a good many years, and this is the first time that there has been any suggestion that I have been unfair in mv testimony. The Cuarrman. I spoke of the information given to the committee and the authorizations that have been made by Congress. The de- partment should not undertake to establish stations without the specific authorization of Congress. Of course, if you take advantage of the broad language, you did have the authority. It has been cus- tomary to come before this Congress and tell the committee exactly what is desired and what it is proposed to do. Mr. Rommet. I can only say that the wording of the item in the appropriation act gives full authority for the action we have taken. The Cuairman. Where are your estimates for these stations? Did you make any estimates last year? Did you advise the committee that you proposed to establish these stations? Mr. Rommen. The question of the establishment of this station at McNeil, Miss., did not come up until after the 1st of January last. The matter went to the Secretary’s office; the Secretary’s office passed upon it with every supposition that the matter was being handled fairly. There was no attempt to cover up anything. As you prob- ably know, Mr. Chairman, the regulations of the department and the laws of Congress are specific and definite, prohibiting subordinates in the department from approaching Members of Congress. The CuHarrman. Congress was not advised. _ Mr. Rommen. I am speaking individually. You have suggested here that I have been unfair to the committee, and I feel that in fair- ness to myself and to the department I should take exception to the statement. The Cuatrman. It is the duty of the department to advise the committee fully. ; Mr. McLaucutin of Michigan. May I ask another question or two there? This general language under which you are operating, part of it is: “Including repairs and additions to and the erection of buildings absolutely necessary to carry on the experiments.” Do you propose to spend money to erect buildings at that station in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan ? Mr. Romet. No, sir; the only thing that—— Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan (interposing). Just another ques- tion: Do you think that you would have authority to use money for the erection cf a building in that upper peninsula—a station ? Mr. Rome. I do not. The Government has no authority to erect buildings on property not owned by the Government. We are erect- ing no buildings at McNeil, Miss. We don’t own that land. That land is the property of the State, and any expenditures that we make will be in the nature of salaries and for maintenance. But buildings, permanent improvements, and things of that kind, are absolutely out of the question so far as the department funds are concerned on any institutions owned by the States. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3801 Mr. Canpier. You get the advantage there of the State’s having already established the station, owning the land and having the build- ings already erected, and you have the use of those buildings in mak- ing these investigations ? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. This clause that you have just quoted, Mr. McLaughlin, applies to stations in which the title vests in the United States; and I may say that we have endeavored not to abuse that privilege. We can give you an itemized statement at any time on request of every building that has been put up, the location, the cost, and everything—what it is used for, and so forth, if you desire to have it. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. Is it your purpose to buy stock with which to experiment at that station in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan ? Mr. Rommen. We try to get out of that too, for a very good reason. I will be frank with you, if we buy stock by and by we may sell it. Then we have to take the proceeds and turn them into the Treasury. We have to be constantly using department funds over and over. If the State owns the stock, on the other hand, they have a fund that they can use as a convertible fund if they want to. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. If the Government acquires it—if the State owns it, do you propose to buy stock with which to carry on experiments in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan ? Mr. Rommet. We clo not. Mr. Jones. Can you tell me why wealthy States like Wisconsin and Michigan and some of these Middle Atlantic and Eastern States are not interested enough in this proposition to make appropriations themselves for the development of their own State; and why the necessity arises that the Federal Government should go and do it? Mr. Rommet. The probable answer to that question is that the areas in question are sparsely settled. Mr. Jones. They are within the borders of the States? Mr. Rommen. Yes; they are within the borders of the States; I grant you that. They are sparsely settled and there are not very many people, and for that reason there isn’t a very strong popular demand in the State. It is a problem for future development of the territory. Mr. Jones. Don’t the same argument apply why the individuals from the thickly populated portions of those States should not have the same interest in the development of the whole State that the thickly populated parts of the United States should have in the thinly populated portions of the United States? Mr. Rommeu. That probably is about as broad as it is long. Theoretically I should say yes, you are quite right; practically, the fact remains that the demands for study looking toward the develop- ment of these large regional areas are largely the province of the department. r. Jones. The history of these appropriations is that they are progressive. I presume that is a kind word to use, at least; they start with a nominal appropriation, and this one, which was $42,000 in 1911, has gone up to over half a million dollars in 10 years. There must come a time when there is a stop to that, must there not? Mr. Romme.. Yes, sir. 302 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Jonrs. We can not go on that way indefinitely. When that time Comes the duty will devolve upon the State to continue it, will it not ¢ Mr. Rome. Some suggestions have been made that where prob-* lems of this character cover more than the confines of one State, that. the matter be a cooperative proposition between the Federal Gov- ernment and the State; cooperative because the whole people are concerned, and also because that will in itself carry out the thought that you have in mind; it will operate as a check. Mr. Jonrs. After all, it is a development of the State in its natura} or created industry. Mr. Romer. Wherever it applies particularly to a State as a unit and does not go beyond the boundaries of that State, I do not believe that the Federal Government has any business to go in. If the prob- lem is not regional, and does not apply to more than just one State, then it is purely a State problem. Mr. Jones. There is certainly a benefit to the State in the develop- ment of these lands for cattle grazing or any other purpose. Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir. Mr. Jones. It is utilizing their waste lands, giving employment to men, creating better economic conditions in the State. . Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan: Do you know of any problems in that portion of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan that are not present in other portions of Michigan? 3 Mr. Rommet. They have somewhat different problems there. Any problem in a section that is a cut-over section means different phases from those in open farming section. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. Michigan is all cut over. Michigan was largely a timber State from the Indiana line to Lake Superior. It was all cut over at one time, and while in the upper parts of, Michigan there was a lot of pine land, much of which is pretty light soil, still there are full counties and great areas of the State that were hardwood timber, and the soil, almost without exception, is heavy soil and good soil. Large parts of it are not occupied, not cultivated, but it is cut-over land, and good land, and the problems of that part of the State, and that part of the State which is now more thickly settled are practically the same, and as the growth and the population of the State increases toward the north, it semes to me the problems are common all over that section of the country. I do not know what problems you could study that can not be studied anywhere in all parts of the State. I would be glad if you would tell me something that can not. Mr. Rome... The problem of winter maintenance is somewhat different. They have an entirely different method of seeding up there and ‘getting their timothy and their clover pastures and meadows in. Their big problem up there, as I understand it, is to determine how they can utilize those lands without going to the necessity of clearing the stumps off at once. Mr. McLaveuurn of Michigan. They have that problem all over the State. The man with a large part of his farm does not take out the stumps at once. He seeds a large field, and then later the stumps come out. And they have the advantage in the Upper Peninsula that the snow comes in great quantities there without AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3038 the ground freezing. Just as soon as the snow goes away in the spring they can plow and put in their crops; whereas in the south- ern part of Michigan, a large part of the Southern Peninsula, the ground freezes hard first and then the snow comes. When the snow leaves in the spring they have to wait for weeks until the frost gets out of the ground. The Upper Peninsula has the ad- vantage in that respect. I don’t know what problems you are going to study there that are not common to a large part of Michigan. Mr. Rommen. Of course, I can answer your question in regard to that specifically and more intelligently if I had made a closer personal inspection of that land. The presence of a long winter season, with snow on the ground through all the winter is a prob- lem of considerable importance to answer. There isn’t any ques- tion, so far as I can find out, but that they can graze animals satisfac- torily there during the growing season, the five months that they have pasture available, when crops are growing; but for the other six or seven months they have a problem of winter maintenance that I think is extremely important. In other words, what shall be the method of handling live stock in that country? Shall they take live stock in there from the West or from the Southwest solely for grazing through the summer time, or can you develop a permanent live-stock industry in that country by growing during the growing season feed enough to carry the animals through the wintertime. Mr. McLaveutun of Michigan. That problem is exactly the same all over Michigan. The winter season is a little longer in the Upper Peninsula, a little bit longer as you go north, but it is the same thing except as to length. Mr. Rommer. You might make the same remark in regard to the problem of winter maintenance in Mississippi, for instance, where they only have about two or three months of winter. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. I don’t know anything about Mississippi. Mr. Hurcuinson. You said that the experiment station did not ask for this assistance, did you not? Mr. Rommet. We have no specific formal request from them. Mr. Hurcutnson. Did you have any from the farmers up there? Mr. Rommer. From the farmers and landowners in the Upper Peninsula. Mr. Hurcuryson. A number of them or one or two? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; there are a number of organized bodies up there that have made the request. A number of farmers have made the request—landowners and people of that kind; the Upper Penin- sula Development Bureau—people of that sort—are the ones that are anxious to have this work carried on. -The Cuarrman. What do you propose to do at Beltsville after you abandon that station ? Mr. Rouen. I did not intend to give the impression that we were going to abandon Beltsville. The Cuarrman. The particular activity that you have been carry- ing on there will be abandoned? ; Mr. Rommen. The beef-cattle work that we have been carrying on thére during the past two seasons at Beltsville will be carried on at 304 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. mo Miss. We haven’t room at Beltsville to conduct beef-cattle work. ae Cuamman. What is the character of your activities at Belts- ville ? Mr. Romomen. The work will be confined to sheep, hogs, goats, and poultry, with a little work on work horses in addition. The Cuarrman. Can it not be better conducted in one place, under one roof and under one management? Could it not be carried on more economically and more successfully in that way ? Mr. Rommer. Yes; more economically; and then you would not be able to study these regional problems. You could not get the ad- vantage at a place like Beltsville of the environment such as you have in the far West, for example. : The Cuarrman. Why? Mr. Rome. Because the climate is different, the rainfall is dif- ferent, the soil is different—a thousand and one things are different. The Cuairman. It is largely a feed proposition, is it not? Mr. Rommen. Surely; influenced tremendously by the crops that you can grow, the soil you have, and the rainfall you have. | The Cuatrman. Do you contend that you get a bigger gain with corn grown in Michigan than with corn grown in Maryland? Mr. Rommet. It is not alone the gains from feeding corn. The Cuatrman. If you feed corn, hay, or anything else. Mr. Rome. But you can get different returns from pastures of different kinds. If your corn analyzes the same, which is not at all likely—corn varies in analysis—but given the same analysis, you will get similar results under similar conditions; but you can not grow blue grass in Mississippi; you can not grow carpet grass at Beltsville. The Cuarrman. I suppose we know that without going to Missis- sippi to investigate it. That is common knowledge. Mr. Rupey. If you are looking for a good place to go, come down into the Ozark Mountains of southern Missouri and we will find you a good place for any kind of experimentation you want.. [Laughter.] Mr. Jones. Or, in the absence of Mr. Tincher, I will suggest Kansas. Mr. Canpter. I suggest that McNeil, Miss., is a splendid place. Mr. Rome. The next item is the item for the increase in Idaho at the United States sheep experiment station. The department esti- mate for this increase is $82,290. That station was established in 1915 by Executive order. Twenty-eight thousand acres of land were withdrawn in what was then Fremont. County, Idaho, and is now Clark County, Idaho. The experimental flock which had been car- ried since 1906 near Laramie, Wyo., was transferred to this new location. Since then we have been equipping it as funds were pro- vided, and the work has gone far enough now where we are making a formal request for an enlargement of the work, so that it will be representative of range conditions. Of this amount of $82,290, the department is asking for $45,000 for the purchase of hay land. Our expenditures for hay with a flock the size that we believe is necessary will be in the neighborhood of $20,000. If we have hay land provided, we will in the course of time, say after about three years, be able to raise most or all of the hay that we need and a considerable portion of the grain. At the present AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3805 time we have to buy all the hay, because this land that we have is strictly grazing land, always has been, and it always will be. The Cuarmrman. Do you propose to drive the sheep to the hay land, or what? Mr. Romer. We will drive the sheep to the hay land. The Cuarrman. How far would you have to drive them? Mr. Rommet. About 40 miles. We hope to be able to get a ranch within about 40 miles. The Cuairman. Irrigated ? : Mr. Rommer. Yes. The remainder of the appropriation is for buildings, for the construction of fences, and for the increase in expenses for feed and labor. Also we are asking for $600 for the purchase of an automobile for the superintendent. Mr. Jones. Where can you get an automobile for $600? Mr. Rommen. A Ford, I believe, can be purchased for that amount. Would the committee be interested in some photographs of that station, Mr. Chairman? The Cuarrman. You might show them. Mr. Rommen. This first photograph [exhibiting photograph] illus- trates the headquarters. This building here is used for three pur- poses: The superintendent has his residence in the corner; the next two windows are the office; the next window is where the cook lives; and at the end here is the mess hall. The next building is the ice house; the next building the pump house; and the building off in the corner is the bunk house for the men. This building [indicating] is the lambing shed. : This photograph [indicating] shows the main reservoir. It will hold about 15,000 gallons of water. That was what made the sta- tion possible. This land had never been used except for a few weeks in the spring and a few weeks.in the fall, because there was no water on it. It is good grazing land but no one had ever gotten any water there, except one little corner where a ditch had been carried across. It is too high to be irrigated, but our men went at the job and put in a well, and we have at 750 feet a splendid flow of water, and the water outfit cost us right around $9,700 complete. This picture [indicating] shows the men digging a trench from the reservoir down to the buildings. The ditch goes almost all the way through lava rock and is extremely hard digging. We had to put pipes down four and a half feet to get below frost. Now we could, if we wanted to, deliver water from that reservoir by gravity over practically half of the ranch, but the expense of digging trenches makes that out of the question, so we have installed small auxiliary tanks out on the range 3 miles apart and 3 miles from the main reservoir. We find that we can haul water to those tanks and keep them filled and keep the sheep supplied. Those tanks hold about 7,500 gallons and the trough holds 1,500 gallons. This is a picture of the flock in winter on the range [indicating]. The thermometer was: 35° below zero when that was taken. Dur- ing the summer the main portion of the flock is run on Targhee Forest, which is about 12 miles away from headquarters. We get the same sort of arrangements there that any private flock owner has to meet. Mr. McKintey. About how many sheep have you? 164315—20-——20 306 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommet. We are carrying about 1,200 ewes now. What we hope to do when this work is properly developed is to have 4,000 ewes so that we can have several bands of sheep. The thought in mind is that if we are conducting our experimental work with full- sized commercial bands of sheep, we are then studying the problems of the flock as they confront the sheepman. We have already worked out two problems that are of importance. The first. one is the re- lationship between length of fiber and coarseness of fleece or fineness of fleece, whichever way you wish to put it. The western men have always insisted that a flescs should be extremely fine, because in that way we get the weight, but we find that by selecting for length of fleece we get just as heavy a fleece, but we get a somewhat coarser fleece, which, however, is more in demand in the market than the extremely fine one. Similarly we have studied the problem of the relationship between the covering of the face and the weight of the fleece. A sheep with a heavily wooled face, is objectionable on the range because it can’t see and often becomes blinded in winter. We have found that we can get practically as good results in yield of wool from an open- faced sheep as from a close-faced sheep. Mr. Canpter. What variety of sheep did you experiment with ? Mr. Rome. The main part of the farm flock is Rambouillet. Then we have the Corriedales, imported in 1914 on authorization of Congress. Since 1913 we have been developing a strain of Lincoln on Rambouillet, and that, apparently, is going to answer the question that was presented to us when this work was started nearly 15 years ago. Sheep men say that apparently, in this Lincoln-Rambouillet sheep, we have the breed for the western range. The EN How much have you invested in Idaho, alto- ether # Mr. Rommet. Do you mean, permanently ? The Cuarrman. Yes. Mr. Rome. The expenditures for permanent improvements in Idaho, to date, including equipment, such as the lighting plant, the work on the roads, fencing, wagons, farm machinery, etc., 1s $31,200. The Cuarrman. You have to construct new buildings on the hay land ? Mr. Romme.. No; we hope to get a ranch with buildings already on it. The additional buildings that are called for here are a horse barn, an addition to the lambing shed, a granary for storage, and a cottage for one of the men. The Cuarrman. On the land to be purchased ? Mr. Rommet. Right in connection with this station here. At present this building here [indicating] is not only the lambing shed but it is the horse stable, the warehouse, the shearing shed, and the machinery shed. We hope to add to it somewhat, and get the horses and the grain out of there. The Cuarrman. What is the prevailing price of hay land there? Mr. Rommex. It will cost somewhere around $200 an acre. We estimate we will get in the neighborhood of 225 acres for $45,000. ae Smitu of Idaho. That includes the permanent water rights too? Mr. Rommen. Yes; we want one with a permanent water right. We could not afford to go anywhere except with that. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 307 Mr. Jacoway. What will it cost a ton to put up this hay? Mr. Rommet. It will not cost more than $8 or $10, at the very outside. Mr. Jacoway. What have you been paying for it? ‘Mr. Romme. We got our hay at $15 in the stack this year. We were very fortunate that we got in before the raise. We bought a little at $18, but most of our hay we got at $15 a ton in the stack, 512 cubic-foot measurement. Mr. Jacoway. What is the object you have been driving at in all this 15 years in the work out there? What is the thing you want to accomplish? How near are you to accomplishing it ? Mr. Rome. The first thing we wanted to see whether it was possible to develop a breed of sheep that was in itself satisfactory for range purposes. The average western ranchman, before we got into this work, never followed any specific line of breeding. For instance, he would have a fine-wooled band of ewes and breed them to long-wool bucks. Then by-and-by he might go back to the fine-wool breed; then he would have, possibly, what we call his lamb band, the ewes in which would be bred to black-face bucks. Mr. Jacoway. Then, from this you have got a standard breed that will thrive in that country ? Mr. Rommeu. That is the first thing we set out to do, and appar- ently we have it in the Lincoln-Rambouillet cross. Mr. Jacoway. Will that breed of sheep do for the South? Mr. Romme.. I am beginning to think that it will. That is one of the questions that I hope to see answered in the next few years. I am beginning to think that possibly not this cross-breed variety that we have in Idaho, but a sheep with some of that blood in him, may be satisfactory under southern conditions. Mr. Jacoway. In the South we have got land that has got all the water on it you want, that will raise all the hay that you want, cut- over land that can be gotten for from $3 to $5 an acre; and it is your opinion, then, after studying this, that the sheep business can be made profitable in the South like it is out there, and the same breed of sheep can be used ? Mr. Rowmet. A similar grade of sheep. There are problems of the sheep industry in the South peculiar to that section. There are sheep all over the South, you know. You find them everywhere. You find them in your country, Mr. Candler, in Mississippi. Mr. Jacoway. There are as many different kinds of sheep as there are farms on which sheep are raised. Mr. Surrn of Idaho. May I ask a question? What proportion of the appropriation of last year, or the previous year, has been re- turned? That is, what proportion of the appropriation has been earned by reason of the conduct of these experiments ? Mr. Rommen. That ig increasing every year. The amount that will be returned this year into the Treasury will be, as near as we can approximate now, $13,000. Mr. Surru of Idaho. And the appropriation was only $20,000 last ear? : Mr. Rommet. $20,720. Mr. Smrru of Idaho. And if this appropriation is granted and experiments are conducted as you plan, with the enlargement of the plant, and so forth, will that proportion of return likely increase? 398 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommet. Oh, yes. Mr. Smiru of Idaho. And the station in a few years will be made self-sustaining ? Mr, Rommet. I would not care to promise that the station will be made self-sustaining, but in some years it probably will be. We ex- pect that the revenue from this station will, if it is carried on this basis that we have recommended, amount to not far from $30,000 a year. Mr. Smirn of Idaho. Do I understand that you dispose of these Bee after you breed them up? yr. Rommet. Yes, sir. _ Mr. Saurru of Idaho. You dispose of them to the farmers around in that particular section of the country ? Mr. Rome. We put into the sales at Salt Lake, under the Na- tional Woolgrowers’ Association, some of the choicest ones, especially ones that we want people to see, you know, to see what we are doing. Others are sold to farmers and ranchmen. Mr. Smiru of Idaho. So, under your plan, the stockmen, the sheep- men all over the western country, get the benefit of your experi- ments ? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; the work at this station applies to a very large area of territory: Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado, and to a considerable extent to Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. Mr. Jacoway. How many sheep can you support on an acre of ground ? Mr. Rommen. In that section it takes several acres. Mr. Jacoway. How many? Mr. Rommet. We are going to run about 4,000 ewes, if Congress gives us sufficient appropriations. We have 28,000 acres of land. That is about 1 ewe to about 7 acres. Mr. Rupey. Are you having any trouble out there from the depre- dations of animals among the sheep? ~ Mr. Rommen. We are not, yet, because we watch them very care- fully. One of the items that we propose to put in with this appro- priation will be the construction of coyote-proof fences, and then we will exterminate any coyotes that may be inside of those fences. The fences will be built so that coyotes and wolves can not get through. Mr. Rosey. Can you manufacture a fence that a dog won't get through? If you can, we raise some sheep in my country, and we would like to know about it. Mr. Rommen. A dog can’t go through a coyote-proof fence. In building a fence, if you will put a barbed wire, stretched tight, on the ground, and then to make insurance doubly sure put another one on the other side of the post, right on the ground, and then start with 36 inches or 84 feet of woven wire, not more than 6-inch mesh, and have the bottom of that wire not more than 3 inches from the ground, put a couple of strands of barbed wire on top of that, and keep the holes underneath filled up, no dog will go through or over. Mr. Rusey. That is the great difficulty we have in the South—the dogs. Mr. Hurtcuinson. Doctor, I want to renew my question now as to why it is necessary to have a plant like this; why it is necessary for the Government to have a plant as large as this? : AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 809 Mr. Rommet. I am glad you asked that question. The reason for it is that we want the conditions under which we are doing this ex- perimental work to match up as closely as they can with the work that the ranchmen, our neighbors, are doing. We want a ranchman to go to that station and know that the problems that we are meeting there are the problems that he meets every day in his business; if he has a band of sheep over here in the hills, or half a dozen bands of sheep, we want to be able to take him to a band of sheep, and not merely a few head. Take, for example, these cross-breeds that I spoke of, we want to show him that here is a successful band of those sheep all of which are bred in the same way. We want each band of sheep used to demonstrate one problem that we are studying. On the basis recommended we will be able to handle at least four bands, counting 1,000 ewes in each band. Mr. Hutcuinson. Do you have different breeds? Mr. Romer. We have several breeds—Rambouillets, which are practically pure bred; the Corriedale sheep, which were brought from New Zealand; and these crossbred sheep, the Lincoln on Rom- bouillet; as well as some crosses from Corriedale and long-wool breeds besides Lincolns. Mr. Anverson. How far is this station from the railroad ? Mr. Romme.. It is 6 miles from the railroad station. The main line of the railroad from Salt Lake to Butte runs right along the western edge of the station. The Cuarrman. Do you wish to say more, Mr. Smith? Mr. Smiru of Idaho. I just wanted to have the privilege of having inserted in the record, following Dr. Rommel’s testimony with refer- ence to this experiment station, a statement that I have. The Cuatrman. Do you desire to read it? Mr. Smiru of Idaho. I don’t want to take the time of the com- mittee to read it, but I would like to have it go in the record, if I may. ‘The CHarrMan. Without objection, it will be inserted. (The paper referred to follows:) Tue STATUS AND WorRK OF THE UNITED STATES SHEEP EXPERIMENT STATION. The United States sheep-experiment station is located at Dubois, Clarke County, Idaho. It was established by Executive order No: 2268, dated October 30, 1915, withdrawing from settlement 28,160 acres of nonagricultural public land, to be used “as a sheep breeding and grazing experimental station.” The Agricultural appropriation acts for the years ending June 30, 1918, 1919, and 1920 provided $20,720 per year for the equipment and maintenance of this sta- tion. The experimental flock now numbers 1,200 breeding ewes, in addition to lambs and rams. The equipment and improvements placed upon the station’s land consist of five buildings, a deep-well watering system, fences, roads, work stock, etc., rep- resenting a total outlay since July 1, 1917, of $31,493. OBJECTS OF THE SHEEP EXPERIMENT STATION’S WORK. From 1966 to 1917 the Bureau of Animal Industry maintained a small flock for experiments in breeding range sheep. This flock was kept at relatively heavy expense on a privately owned ranch at Laramie, Wyo. In order to attempt the solution of some of the range problems in a practical and satis- factory way it was found necessary to use larger numbers of sheep, and to have them and the range upon which they graged under the full control of the bureau at all times. This station at Dubois was established for the investigation, in an experi- mental way, of questions affecting the production of wool, lamb, and mutton on 310 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. the ranges in Idaho, Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, Utah, and Colorado. This work is also considered to be of value, though less directly, to the sheep raisers of Washington, Oregon, California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas. These 12 Pea 27,224,000 of the 49,863,000 sheep in the United States on Janu- ary 1, t . The 11 range States (Texas excluded) contain 211,277,000 acres of unre- served unappropriated public land in addition to 180,184,700 acres in national forests. On by far the larger part of these remaining public lands, as well as upon a great deal of privately owned land, the grazing industry will remain paramount. The utilization of these lands in the most scientific way and with the most useful types of animals is vital to the range States themselves, but also vital to the production ot food and clothing for the entire country. There is no other station in these 11 range and public-land States having facilities for conducting experiments in range sheep production. A large area was needed to permit handling of a number of bands (1,000 to 1,800 head) ef range sheep under different methods to show the most economical ways of utilizing the range and of breeding and handling the sheep. PLAN OF STATION’S WORK. The experiments have been planned and so far as facilities allow are being conducted under four main heads, as follows: 1. Methods of grazing the range to secure greatest returns. 2. Methods of handling and feeding range sheep for maximum quantity and quality of lambs and wool. ‘ 3. Types of sheep for the range. 4. Systems of handling sheep on stock-raising homesteads. Methods of grazing the range to secure greatest returns Experiments under this head will be started as soon as a larger number of sheep are available and sufficient fencing can be erected to insure complete control of the range used. The feed-producing capacity of a large part of the range area has been seri- ously impaired by overstocking and by lack of a rotation of grazing times to permit reseeding of the grasses. The sheep experiment station’s work in this field will be planned to show (1) the acreage required per 1,000 head at a reasonable rate of stocking and when overstocked; (2) the gain in feed produc- tion per section of land from observing a rotation of grazing periods to permit reseeding; (3) the extra cost and extra returns of keeping range sheep in fenced areas as compared to herding on the range; (4) to afford a fair measure of the number of sheep that can be supported on a section of such land as is controlled by the station. Methods of handling and feeding range sheep for maximum returns.—Studies along this line are now in progress. They include (1) size of lamb crop as affected by number of rams and care of rams, time of breeding, condition of ewes, methods of lambing; (2) amount and kinds of feed for winter feeding with greatest economy and to produce largest yields of wool and lambs. Types of sheep for the range—Up to the present the experiments conducted huve related chiefly to this branch of the work. High-grade Rambouillet stock has been used from the start. In 1915 a flock of Corriedale sheep was imported from New Zealand under provisions of the Agricultural appropriation act for the year 1914-15. In 1913 experiments in cross-breeding were begun. _ This branch of the work also includes a study of various types of individuals within the Rambouillet breed, with reference to face covering, skin folds, and length and fineness of wool as they affect the weight and value of fleece. : The results of these experiments are now being prepared for publication. Brief presentations of some of the phases of this part of the investigation are contained in the succeeding pages. i Systems of handling sheep on stock-raising homesteads.—The plan of work provides for fencing of separate sections for study of methods of management and the kind of sheep that may be used to secure greatest net returns from the keeping of sheep on stock-raising homestead lands. PartraL SUMMARY OF Work on “ TYPES OF SHEEP FOR THE RANGE,” ConpDUCTED AS Pant or “ RANGE SHEEP INVESTIGATIONS,” AT THE UNiTep States SHEKP EXPERIMENT STATION, Duszols, IDAHO. BREEDING EIQE-W00L SHEEP. A. Face covering.—In breeding sheep with production of fine wool as the chief aim, breeders have generally produced a sheep with a face closely wooled up. This feature has been objected to by some ranchmen, but it has been held AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 311 that the fleece weight would decline if the wool was bred off the faces. The Dureau’s records prove that it is possible to have the advantage of an open face without losing in weight of wool. Open-faced sheep. Closed-faced sheep. Year. Num-| Average | Average |x... | Average} Average ber. | Weight | weight ber, | Weight. | weight “| fleece. fleece. ‘| fleece. fleece. - Pounds. | Pounds. Pounds. | Pounds. 12.14 88 | 104 11.08 80. 2! 9 77 54 8.6 68 10.6 79 36 11.8 74 1 Yearlings; weights given are for first fleeces. B. Length and fineness of fleece.—Breeders of fine wool sheep, which until recently predominated on the range, have always emphasized weight of fleece and fineness of fiber. The bureau’s data show that money returns can be better mereased by selecting for longer wool even though it is less fine. By increasing length the weight and pound value of the fleece are both added to. The longer fleeces are shown to be ordinarily a little less fine, but this is asso- ciated with greater size and vitality. Below are shown the weights of wool obtained from sheep of varying fleece weights over a period of eight years: Average Numb: Length of wool. weight of | NUmber 8 fleece. | fleeces. Pounds. Ai ROOD OE POSS vinci icainin bmn ness wa aw earns wale aiedian vieseoeawnastaWa pawk eee 9.8 29 1.5 inches to 2 inches. 10.2 505 2 inches to 2.5 inches. 11.3 1,030 2.5 inches to 3 inches. 11.7 369 Over Such esi wecpnisu saiisenniie dmeanne auceunciae sake caisnmeemenincisceme nn Sacer ane sa 11.9 65 The fact that increased length is associated with coarser fiber is shown in the table below. These results show that in breeding for length it is well to select for 56s or 58s wool. The data on hand also show that with the somewhat coarser wool there is better character. The fineness is shown in “counts,” 56s representing commercial wool of the half-blood grade, and the higher counts the higher grades. Length of fleeces of varying fineness as shown. Year, 56s. 58s. 60s. 62s. 64s. 2.5) 2.35 2.3 2.4 2.3 26 48 47 32 20 3.06] 3.01 2.5 2.5 2.4 4 23 72 136 197 Average length sic sdwec secu sencdcstveteesineiniosnicieicien inches. - 3.2 2.9 2.5] ° 2.4 2.2 (NED s vena seo onriaic em uniedenweiie eiceancnma ene a Re mR aoU ES 8 12 40 129 178 1918. Averagelength ............. cece cece eee ee ceeeneeeeneee inches. . 2.5 2.5 2.5 2.3 2.2 Number ea cmeccaccnteccne see natenwan nets weneneeson ss eaces 2 20 106 186 86 Types of sheep for the range.—Since 1913 range sheep men outside of the Southwest have been forced to breed along new lines to produce both wool 312 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. and mutton. The system of crossing back and forth with long wool and fine wool rams has many drawbacks. The type of sheep secured from the first cross of long-wool rams upon fine-wool ewes has produced a satisfactory sheep, ae it was not considered possible to breed in such a way as to retain this ype. The bureau’s experiments with breeding Lincoln-Rambouillet crossbreds strictly within themselves has produced a sheep which ranchmen have pro- nounced to be what is needed. This experiment has also demonstrated the -system of breeding to be followed in producing such a sheep. Corriedale sheep were imported from New Zealand in 1914 as a part of the study of the same problem. They have been found to be quite well adapted to Wyoming and Idaho ranges. Records on a few points of these two types of sheep are presented along with similar figures for grade Rambouillets kept in the same flock. tance outlay Corriedales. : Rambé6uillets, Aver- Aver- Aver- Num-| Per | Aver-| age |Num- Per | Aver-| age |Num-| Per | Ayer-| age ber | cent age | weight| ber | cent age | weicht| ber | cent age | weight ewes| ewes | weight] year- | ewes| ewes | weight| year- | ewes! ewes | weight} year- bred. |lambed.) fleece. | ling | bred.|lambed.| fleece. | ling | bred. /lambed | fleece. | Jing Year, ewes, owes. ewes, | 50 88 13 102 64 92 10.2 |........ 537 85| 11.89 82. 65 89 10 80 61 92 8.2 70 | 503 76 9.05 72 47 Si eicraesronis 82 83 85.5 10.5 77} 413 90} 12.86 75 43 74 12.9 96} 114 96 10.8 80; 438 87) 11.7 82 ESTIMATES OF APPROPRIATIONS FOR RANGE-SHEEP INVESTIGATIONS. An increase of $82,280 in the appropriation for “ Range-sheep investigations ” is included in “the estimates of appropriations for the Department of Agri- culture for the year ending June 30, 1921” (p. 52), as submitted to the second session of the Sixty-sixth Congress. The department’s work in range-sheep investigations is conducted at the United States sheep experiment station, located at Dubois, Idaho. A brief outline of the work of this station and the plans for making it of greates service accompanies this report.. . The increases estimated are for three main purposes: Purchase of land to raise winter feed $45, 000 Feed, labor, and salary_---------------__-_- +22, 500 Completing equipment for experimental work_______________________ +14, 780 The present allotment for this project is $20,720. With the above increases for 1921 the total outlay would be $103,000. The annual expenditures for succeeding years, if the increases are received, would be in the neighborhood of $35,000, with a return to the Treasury that in some years would equal that amount. EXPLANATIONS AND DETAILS OF INCREASE. Purchase of land to raise winter feed.—The land used by the sheep experi- ment station has no irrigation water and produces no harvested crops for winter feeding. In 1919, $10,000 was paid for hay (400 tons at $17 per ton) and grain, for the 1,200 ewe flock and the work stock. On the basis of a 4,000 ewe flock, which it is desired to keep, from 900 to 1,000 tons would be needed each winter. This amount of hay could be produced on 800 acres of land, which would cost not less than $150 per acre. There would be the expense of labor on the hay ranch and water fees, as compared to paying from $15 to $22 per ton, as has been necessary during recent years. The saving in feed bills, at present rates, would pay for the land in five years. 1 Owing to an error these items are slightly different from those shown in the estimates, The totals are the same. : AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 313 Feed, labor, and salary.—The increases estimated under this head are for use as follows: FE NY ace ale eat sed tert Sete tt a at eer ah renee ince men wae ey $13, 000 Via DON see a er ere ee se pe eee a ata eee ne 5, 000 Grain Aa ST ee fe Oa met tial es Bae a 2, 500 Salat yo: os ots eee Bee ee ee ee eee ee eS 2, 000 Total os Reson nee eee ee aoe 22, 500 Of the above the item for increased expenditure for hay would be unneces- sary after the first crop had been secured from the laud purchased. These items are intended to allow keeping a 4,000 ewe flock, which is desir- able to carry on the experiments along practical lines that will be representa- tive of the general ranchman’s conditions, and in the most economical way. Sheep ranchmen would not put into practice results of experiments in grazing in which a small number of sheep were used to a lot. Such results would not necessarily hold true under general range conditions. One herder can attend to 1,000 sheep on the range as well as to a smaller number. As the winter feed is all that is paid for, the expense of 4,000 sheep, aside from feed, would be less than double that for 1,200 at present. In 1920, 400 tons of hay were purchased for.$7,000. For the larger flock 1,000 tons would be needed. At the very probable rate of $20 per ton this would require $20,000, or an increase of $13,000. Three additional full-time men would be needed and two part-time men. The ruling rate of wages in the vicinity of the station is now $100 per month and board. It is desired to provide for a second man who can assist and substitute for the superintendent at the station and in educational work in coopera- tion with the State extension departments and in field studies of sheep breed- ing. An income of $19,000 received from the sale of wool and sheep will be con- verted into the Treasury during 1919-20. Even with lower prices in the future, with a larger flock the returns should exceed this by a considerable amount. Completing equipment for experimental work.—The following buildings and equipment are necessary with the present-sized flock : One residence for assistant to superintendent______-___----_______. __ $4, 000 One horse and hay barn, addition to lambing shed____-__-___-________ 8, 000 Grain storage : —__ 1,000 Automobile for superintendent’s use. ae 600 Fencing experimental pastures___ = 4, 000 Water lines, hay ranch tools, and machinery____--_--__-----------_-- 2, 000 One or all of the first three items could be located upon the hay-producing land, but if not, would be needed at the present headquarters. The fencing and stock-watering facilities are needed for the grazing experi- ments and for utilization of the present grazing lands. The Cuamman. Tell us of the $5,000 increase at Beltsville. Mr. Rommen. That request for $5,000 increase at Beltsville, Mr. Chairman, is to take care of increased expenses at the station. We have had no increase in the appropriation for the maintenance of the farm at Beltsville for several years. We have had some slight increases for the experimental work that has been done there, but nothing whatever to pay for the strictly farm work itself. The Cuarrman. I understand you are going to abandon some of the work there? Mr. Romomet. That work is one of the very small items of the farm. The Cuairman. You are going to extend the other activities? Mr. Rome. Yes; we want to meet expenses as they ought to be met. We have been compelled to draw on other projects in order to meet expenses that ought to be charged strictly to the experi- 314 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. mental farm at Beltsville. And that is the real reason for asking for this increase for miscellaneous supplies. It is the high cost of living in handling an experiment station of that nature. That is exactly what it is, in a word. Mr. Jacoway. As you develop this breed of sheep, and everyone knows it is a success, what is the object then of continuing the ‘station ? Mr. Rome. That is the first one of our problems that we have worked out there. There are four main problems at that station. The first one is the study of methods of grading to secure the greatest returns. The second is the study of methods of handling and feed- ing range sheep for maximum quality and quantity of lambs and wool. Third is the question of the types of sheep for the range, which we have partly answered; and fourth, the system of handling sheep on stock-raising homesteads. There are four problems that will keep anybody busy for a good long time. We have not, answered all the questions. We think we have made an approach to answering this one question. Mr. Hurcurnson. Doctor, in case we give these increased appro- priations, with all these experiments, do you think it will ever reduce the cost of living? Mr. Rommet. I hope so. Mr. Hutcuinson. I know, but I asked if you thought it would. Mr. Rommex. The reduction of the cost of production ought to help. That is the ambition of all of us. Mr. Hutcurnson. I know, but it seems that the appropriations increase and the cost of living increases algo. I don’t see where we are gaining anything. The Cuarrman. What about this soft pork item ? Mr. Romme.. We are starting the soft pork investigations under an appropriation granted last year. The Cuarrman. What progress have you made? Mr. Rommen. We have fed some hogs in Southern States that were fed on feeds that we were pretty certain were soft pork pro- ducing feeds, and those hogs are now coming in from the outlying stations, are being slaughtered at Beltsville, and a chemical analysis of the fats is being made. We are searching for a competent chemist to put in charge of the chemical work, and we hope to have him before the end of the fiscal year. The Cuarrman. You have no report to make on that? Mr. Rommen. We can not tell you anything except just something of general interest, Mr. Chairman, on that matter. We killed a hog at Beltsville the other day, which came from North Carolina, that had been fed on peanuts. We took some of the pork and made sau- sage of it, and we could not make that sausage into sausage cakes. We would make little pads of it, lay them out on the pan, and they would flatten out. We made lard from the fat of that hog, and when taken in the hand and squeezed the oil would drip out. The Cuairman. That is evidently soft pork? Mr. Romnet. I don’t think there is any argument about that. The Cuarrman. What do you propose to do? Mr. Rommen. Of course, we want to go at this problem with the idea of solving it. That is the reason we are going slow. Every step that we take will be taken right. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 315 The Cuarman. Have you anything in mind? Mr. Romer. We have. The first thing we want to do is to find the cause of the trouble. I don’t mean what kind of feed you can give them, but what is the reason if you feed hogs penauts, for example, the pork is soft. Now, what is the reason for that, and, also, if vou feed him soy beans the pork may be soft? On the other hand, why is it that some other condition may develop, that hog may ostensibly be fed on these soft-pork feeds, and yet the pork will be firm? There may be some physiological questions involved. Now, we are able to do a very large amount of this work right at Beltsville. But to re- vert to a question you asked a while ago, we can’t study the peanut re of this problem at Beltsville, because they can’t grow peanuts there. The CuarrmMan. You can buy them? Mr. Rommet. No, sir. The Cuarrman. Why? Mr. Romme. Because the hogs are fed by having them harvest the peanuts. You have a peanut crop and you turn the hogs in on the peanuts. That is where soft, peanut-fed pork comes from. Nobody buys peanuts to feed to hogs, he grows them; and no farmer would listen to us if we told him that we went out and bought peanuts to feed to hogs. He would say we didn’t know anything about feeding peanuts to hogs; but if we raised the hogs and raised peanuts to feed them, he would listen. The Cuarrman. Is there a considerable number of hogs fed on peanuts? Mr. Rommet. Thousands of them. The Cuarrmay. Is that profitable? Mr. Rommet. Absolutely so. It is an extremely profitable way to feed them, but the trouble is that the peanut hogs are docked all the way from 3 to 10 cents a pound. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. Isn’t it true that you find soft pork all over the country, and practically the only way out of it is to feed them corn? Mr. Rommet. I hope it is not true, but I am afraid it will be true with the increase in the use of soy beans for grazing hogs. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. If a farmer in Iowa raises hogs and don’t finish them on corn, it is practically soft pork the same as you have in Virginia, isn’t it? ; a Mr. Romer. Now, I am going to ask you a question. Why is it that in Ontario they get soft are from feeding corn ? Mr. McLavueuurn of Michigan. T don’t know. Mr. Rome. I don’t know either. Mr. CanvteEr. It is a part of the problem to find some feed by which this pork can be hardened and made more useful? Mr. Romnet. That is part of the problem. The first thing we want to do is to find out what the cause is, and the next thing how to cure it. Mr. Jacoway. You can take an acre of Spanish peanuts and get all the nuts off of it, and then you can turn the hogs in there, and each acre will fatten two head of hogs. Now, can’t you round those hogs out on about five bushels of corn and harden the pork? 316 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommet. I don’t know whether that is a fact, Mr. Jacoway. There is a very strong impression that once a peanut hog always a peanut hog. . Mr. Rusey. What about range hogs? Mr. Romuri, They are not quite as bad, but almost. The first. attention to soft pork in this country came from the hogs that were fed on acorns, and then after that we got into the business of feeding hogs on peanuts. Now, I want to say this much about this question: What makes this one of the biggest regional problems in the hog industry—that is, if Mr. McLaughlin’s intimation is true—is that we may get soft pork all over the country. We have here a most serious question, whether hogs can be finished firm on corn or not. If it is true that any oily feed makes soft pork, lock out for soft-pork trouble from other things; soy beans, for instance. Mr. McLaueutin of Michigan. They have already been advised against soy-bean fattening. The farm papers tell them that. Mr. Rome. Yet more and more farmers are raising their hogs en soy beans. Mr. McLavcuuin of Michigan. They are doing that in the first instance and then finishing them on corn. The farm papers, a num- ber of them that I have seen, are advising farmers against feeding their hogs soy beans with the idea of finishing them on that. ~~ Mr. Rome. ‘That is good advice. Mr. Purnety. How does a hog raised on soy feed or peanuts, for instance, compare in weight to one raised on corn? Mr. Rome. As far as the weight and gains are concerned they do just about as well. Pigs can be fattened just about as econom- ‘eally so far as weight and cost of feed are concerned, but the soft pork shrinks more after the packer gets hold of it. It drips, and that is the reason the packer docks it. A soft carcass loses more weight than a firm carcass will. Mr. Canpier. I have an uncle who used to have a big plantation in Florida and he had a great many peanuts, and he fattened the hogs in the fall of the year on peanuts and then took them off of peanuts and put them into a pen and fed them corn in order to harden the meat. I remember he raised one hog that weighed 864 pounds, but of course that was unusual. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigan. Did that process harden the meat? Mr. Canpier. Yes; that was his theory of hardening the meat. Mr. Hurcutnson. How does it affect these razorbacks down South? Mr. Canpier. You can’t do much with them. They are mighty good meat, though. The Crairman. Doctor, tell us more in detail what you are doing and what you expect to do next year, and how much money you are using this year for that purpose. Mr. Romme.. The appropriation for soft-pork investigations this year is $20,000. The Cuamman. Are you going to use all of it? Mr. Rome. Absolutely; every cent of it. The Cuarrman. How are you spending it? Mr. Rommet. The first thing we want, as I said, is as good a chem- ist as we can find, to conduct the chemical work on this project. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 317 Then we will have a few assistants, and some laborers. One of the big items of expense is going to be the matter of animals and feed. The Cuarrman. How much are you going to use next year? Mr. Rommet. The Secretary’s estimate is $20,000. The Cuarrman. For next year? Mr. Rome. Yes, sir. : The Cuairman. Where is this scientific man to be located ? Mr. Rommet. The head chemist will be at Beltsville, at the labora- tories there on the dairy farm. The Cuarrman. You would employ a chemist simply for this ex- periment ? Mr. Romney. Yes, sir. A competent chemist will be in charge of the chemical work, and will put in his entire time on it. He will have under him an analyst, who will conduct the analytical work in the laboratory, and help in other chemical work. «he Cuarrman. Where will all that be done—at Beltsville? Mr. Rome. Only at those points where we have to select some place for hogs to be fed on peanuts. Of course, that is in cooperation with the State stations. We have to cooperate with the State sta- tions. They are to be in with us. We need their interest and’their support in the study of these questions. The Cuarrman. Will they cooperate with you in the matter? Mr. Rommen. So far as spending money is concerned, I do not think so. - The CHatrman. No expenditures will be required for improve- miei for the purchase of land, or for the establishment of new sta- tions ? Mr. Rommet. No, sir. Mr. Awnperson. Are we to understand that none of these States are sufficiently interested in the proposition to be willing to contrib- ute anything to the solution of the problem? Mr. Rome. Every one of the Southern States are studying this, but there is nobody yet that has taken up this problem from the fundamental standpoint until this committee and Congress gave the department the authority to go ahead and put this thing on a fun- damental basis. Mr. Anperson. If there are half a dozen, more or less, of the States engaged on this work, and the Federal Government besides, it looks as if we are wasting some money somewhere. / Mr. Romer. May I make another statement not in the record? Mr. Anverson. Let’s have it in the record. Mr. Romer. Then I can not make it. Mr. Anperson. I do not want any sub rosa statements. As far as I am concerned, if it can not go into the record I do not want it. Mr. Rommer. As vou say. Mr. Anperson. I notice you have a proposition here in item 64 to inaugurate a study of beef production on northern cut-over lands in Michigan, Wisconsin, or Minnesota. Can you tell us something about that. Mr. Hurcuinson. He has gone over that. Mr. McLaveu.in of Michigan. That is in the record. Mr. Romer. That is in the record. Mr. Anverson. I would like to know what you are going to do with . special reference to Minnesota, if I may. f 318 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL... Mr. Rommet. The proposition is to establish beef-production ex- periments in northern cut-over lands, covering the region of the upper peninsula of Michigan, the upper part of Wisconsin, and the upper part of Minnesota. It is an outgrowth of the work of last. summer for the relief of live stock from the northwestern drought. area. That movement resulted in bringing in some 200,000 sheep. and 75,000 cattle into that territory. Nobody had ever done a great. deal of work in that section in the raising of cattle and sheep be- fore, and a great many of those men are so well satisfied with what. they found here in the way of live-stock possibilities that they want. the department to take up experimental work in that area. Mr. Anprrson. Is that work done in cooperation with the States? Mr. Rommet. Yes, sir; it will be. Mr. Anverson. Have any of the States appropriated any money for this sort of work ? Mr. Rommen. The State of Michigan has a small station at Chat- ham where they have done soine work on forage crops and a little on ae but nothing on beef cattle. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. Will it be necessary for the Fed- eral Government to erect any buildings at any of these places in Michigan, Minnesota, or Wisconsin ? Mr. Romuet. It will be impossible. The Government can not erect buildings on land that it does not own. It is illegal, and we have no intention whatever of doing so. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. With the permission of the State, you could acquire it by gift and would not need an act of Congress. Mr. Romer. We have no intention of doing that. It will be neither necessary nor desirable, and as the matter stands at present it is not possible. I am absolutely against it. There is no reason at all why we should contemplate the erection of buildings and every- thing of that kind in a permanent station in that country. There is no call for it, and it is not desirable. If anything of that kind is done, the expenditure could be made by the State. The Government should not put itself in a position in any of those places so that it can not get out without difficulty should it find it necessary to do so. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. On the other side of this ques- tion, my understanding is that it is not a State proposition at all. You have not told us of a word from a State official in regard to this proposition in Michigan. It is a request from a few of the residents up there. There is not a State there that has had any conference with you so far as you have stated and I have tried to bring out as to whether there had been or not. Mr. Rowmen. We had a conference at St. Paul in July attended by about 200 people, Mr. McLaughlin. That was attended by State officials from the States we are discussing and the Western States on the drought relief area. This question was given very earnest and emphatic consideration at that time. I say we have no formal re- quest, we have no formal letter that I can lay before you; but we have been in conference with State officials, and with officials of agri- cultural colleges of every one of those States. They were at the con- ference at St. Paul and these questions came up. We have that. If you ask me for a dogmatic statement along these lines, I can not give it to you. I can not do the impossible. But we have the requests, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 319 many of them, from the people that are in that region and interested in its development, who are anxious to have the cooperation of the department. Mr. Axperson. Are these people actual settlers or land speculators? Mr. Rommep. They are landowners and settlers. Mr. Jacoway. Are they large landowners? Mr. Rommer. Some own several thousand acres. Mr. Jacoway. Of cut-over lands? Mr. Romme.. Yes; what is left after the timber has been taken away. r. Rusey. Are these lands owned by corporations that cut over the land and took the timber off or are they owned by the men who have purchased the land from these corporations and who are trying to farm them? Mr. Romme.. They are both. The largest tracts of these lands are owned by the timber companies. Then in addition to that you will find men such as Mr. Frank Hagenbarth, of Idaho, who went in and bought large tracts of land. ‘ The Cuarrman. Will you tell us something about your Morgan orses. Mr. Rommen. No, sir; I am not discussing that. The Cuarrman. I notice that is in the note. Mr. Rommen. The note you refer to is this, that one of the points at which we would start investigations in beef production would be at the Morgan horse farms. _ Mr. Anperson. Is there anything in the general situation in the New England States that would justify a belief in the successful con- duct of beef-cattle operations? Mr. Rommet. There is a growing interest in beef production in New England, largely due to the shortage of labor. There was, 40 years ago, in the Champlain Valley, the very section where the Mor- gan horse farm is located, a considerable beef production industry. That went out with the rapid development of the West, and it has never come back. Mr. Anverson. That is the exact proposition I was trying to get at. Is there now such a relation in cost of production in the New England States and the West that there is any probability that the New England States would be able to compete with the West in beef production ? Mr. Rome. Yes; there are herds of beef cattle being established, especially the dual-purpose kinds. One of the leading dual-purpose Shorthorn herds in New England is in the Champlain Valley, and there is quite a bit of interest in that matter. It has even gone so far that there are certain men here and there who have gone to Texas for steers to feed in New England. The Crairman. But there is not sufficient demand to interest the State experiment stations? ; Mr. Romer. No; the State experiment stations’ funds are entirely confined to studies of dairy production. The Cuarrman. Have all of the experiment stations lost interest in beef production ? Mr. Romme.. I do not believe that any station in New England is doing anything in beef production. I do not recall that they are. 320 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. Are they doing any of that work in the States that you have reference to in the notes? ; Mr. Rommet. There is some independent work in beef production going on in practically all of these States. In the States that are mentioned as doing cooperative work with the department there is no duplication with any work that the State itself is carrying on. The Cuarrman. They are not doing anything independent of the Federal Government ? : Mr. Rommen. Yes; they are doing work independent of the Fed- eral Government. Their work is not entirely tied up with us. The Cuarrman. Is it necessary to carry it on in two places in the same State? Mr. Romme. Oftentimes; yes, sir. The Cuairman. Have you anything else that you wish to say? Mr. Romoet. I have nothing else; no, sir. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. That work in Vermont does not strike me very favorably, Doctor. I do not know why, in an old State like Vermont, where they have worked on this proposition for a long, long time, they would not be able to do it themselves if they want to have it done. I am not greatly moved by this desire on the part of a few people who want the Government to bear the expense and request the Federal Government to do some of this work. Indi- viduals like to throw the burden on the Federal Government. There is hardly a State in the Union that is not trying to avoid its respon- sibility, evade its duty, trying to throw the burden on the Federal Government to do the work that they ought to do themselves. - If you have some particular reason for taking 1p this work in Vermont, that is one thing. But I say it does not appeal to me. I would like to know what your reason is. Mr. Rommen. We want to find out, if we can, whether it is pos- sible economically to establish a herd of beef cattle in New Eng- land. That is one of the things we want to know, and the State has not taken this up for the reason that all the funds they have are taken up with the study of dairy problems. Mr. McLaucuutn of Michigan. They are abundantly able to do it, are they not? ~ Mr. Rommet. They have not the funds. Mr. McLaueuurn of Michigan. Do you mean to say that your interest in the people of Vermont is greater than the interest of the State Government in its own people? Mr. Rommety. No; not at all. Mr. McLaucuurn of Michigan. It would strike me that if that problem is before them and they do not care to take it up it is going pretty far for the Federal Government to do it. Mr. Rommen. We would like to be forehanded, Mr. McLaughlin. I should like to have an answer to the question before it is thrown at me. If I can work out and have the answer ready when the ques- tion is put to me, I would rather have it that way than be com- pelled to conduct an investigation in a hurry, and possibly get a wrong answer. Mr. McLaueuun of Michigan. I know, but assuming that you would be successful up there, was it your business to make it in the first place, was it the duty of the Federal Government to conduct it, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 321 in view of the abundance of means in their own State, and it being strictly a local problem? : . , Mr. Romuet. I cannot agree with you that it is strictly a local problem. I contend that the problem applies to all of New Eng- land and to much of New York State as well. The matter of beef production there applies to that entire section, and somebody ought to be studying the problem. If it is not the function of the Depart- ment of Agriculture to study a problem coyering such an extensive territory, I do not know whose function it is. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. It may be. Mr. Rommen. Mr. Chairman, there is one point in this soft pork matter that I think that I should lay before the committee for its information, and that is that we have in this work the cooperation of the National Swine Growers’ Association. The National Swine Growers’ Association has agreed to furnish some of the hogs that, we will use in this work; that is to say, hogs that we may get in North Carolina, Texas, or some other place away from Beltsville the National Swine Growers’ Association has agreed to purchase, we to pay for the meat from those hogs that we actually use. It is an arrangement similar to the one that the bureau has with the Grove City Creamery in Pennsylvania, which enables us to con- duct the work without calling on Congress for very large appro- priations and without tying up Federal funds for an annual ap- PepEtion for use during just a few weeks or months, as the case may be. The CuHarrman. What is that association made up of—farmers or shippers? Mr. Rommen. They are breeders of hogs. The Cuarrman. Of pure-bred hogs? Mr. Rommetu. Yes; very largely. It is represented largely by the membership in the pure-bred swine breeders’ associations. I think that ought to be laid before the committee. The Cuarrman. Some one called my attention to it to-day. Have you anything else? Mr. Rommen. I have only one other point to make. In regard to that suggestion I made when Mr. Anderson objected to what he called subrosa statements, I simply want to call attention to this, that we are equipped at Beltsville now to carry on this soft-pork investigation as no other institution in the soft-pork territory is equipped. We can follow these hogs from the time they are born until the meat is put on the table. We can grow the pig, kill it, cure the meat, cook it if necessary, and lay it on the table. We will know absolutely from the time the hog was born exactly how the meat was handled. We are beholden to no one for any step in the investigation. ; The Cuarrman. No reference is made to it here in the notes. Mr. Rommeu. No reference, because no increase is estimated for. The Cuarrman. You simply make references where you ask for an increase ? Mr. Rome. Yes; that is it. ; The Cuarrman. Does the committee desire to know anything about the horse breeding ? Mr. Rommet. I can mention that if you wish it. 164315—20——21 322 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. You might state briefly the number of stallions that you have? > , . Mr. Rommen. We have the horse-breeding work in progress at the Morgan horse farm and at the station in Wyoming. That has been in progress for a great many years. The work in Wyoming was formerly in Colorado, but that was transferred to Wyoming last summer. The Cuarrman. You have no station in Colorado now? Mr. Rommet. No, sir. The Cuarrman. What is the highest price paid for stallions at the Colorado or Wyoming station ? Mr. Rommet. The highest price that we have paid? The Cuarrman. The highest price paid for stallions by the Gov- ernment ? Mr. Rommen. Three thousand five hundred dollars. That was a great many years ago. The Cuairman. You are positive about that? Mr. Rommet. Surely. I bought them. Three thousand five hun- dred dollars was the most that we ever paid for a horse. The Cuarrman. The highest price paid for any stallion owned by the Government at either of the stations? Mr. Rommet. That is the highest price that I know of for stallions that we have had. ; ave CuarrMAn. What was the highest price paid at the Morgan arm ? Mr. Rommex. We paid $3,500 for one of the stallions at the Colo- rado station, and $3,500 for one at the Morgan horse farm. Two thousand dollars was the highest price we ever paid for any of the horses that we bought for Army work. The average cost of horses for the Army work was approximately $750. The Cuarrman. I was told that the Government had paid $18,000 for one of its horses. Mr. Rommet. We have had nothing to do with anything like that. The Cuarrman. There are no other horses except what you have in your charge owned by the Government? Mr. Romme:. The Army has some horses, and the Indian Service has some horses, and so on, but I do not know of any branch of the Government that buys any horses for breeding purposes except the department. I do not think there is any other branch of the Gov- ernment to be considered. I think you can safely say that the Gov- ernment has never paid that sum. The Cuarrman. The business is conducted as in the past? Mr. Romnet. Yes; as in the past. The reason for conducting it is simply, particularly with reference to the Morgan horse, that here is an American horse that has in it endurance, feet, legs, and so on, features unexcelled in any other horse. But on account of its small size the breeding of these horses is declining. Small farmers are not breeding them extensively and wealthy men who go in for Morgans may dispose of their studs at any time. It would be a misfortune if the Morgan horse were allowed to die out. In order to prevent this. the Government hopes to maintain a small permanent Morgan herd of horses. The Cuamman. How many Morgan horses are owned by the Gov- ernment ? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3823 Mr. Rommen. We try to keep 25 brood mares. That makes in all between 65 and 75 head of horses, of both sexes. Mr. McLaucuurn of Michigan. Do you find anybody interested in taking stock off your hands? Mr. Romme.. Yes; they take a few. We have two stallions in North Carolina, and there are indications now that the Morgan horse may develop as a sire of cow ponies. My own candid opinion is that the Morgan horse is going to be a source of supply of small riding horses. He is never going to compete with the Ford car. If you get some more size in him he will do for handling hilly farms, and the stallions apparently are going to be of use as sires of first-class horses on the range. ~~ * 4 Mr. McLaueuttin of Michigan. They are naturally small? . Mr. Rommet. Yes. Mr. McLaveutrin of Michigan. Does the breeding of them tend to increase their size? | Mr. Rommen. We are increasing the size quite a little. Our mares will average around 1,100 pounds now. We are trying to get them up to 1,200 pounds. The stallion at the head of the stud weighs 1,200 pounds; in breeding condition somewhat less. He was shown last Saturday morning at the International Live-Stock Exposition at Chicago and won first in the class. Mr. Canpter. What character of horses have you in Wyoming? Mr. Rommen. Mainly standard bred horses. We try to get them to average 1,300 to 1,400 pounds. That work was started under the name of the American carriage horse. We have dropped that name. What we are trying to do is to breed them to the needs of the range, where they will carry a man or pull a wagon. It is a light wagon or utility horse. The CHarrman. How much are you getting for the Morgan horses ? Mr. Rommen. We do not sell any. We have let them out to people who will take them and stand them. The Cuarrmay. So far you have not sold any? Mr. Rommen. We have not sold any except culls. The Cuarrman. What is the prevailing price? Mr. Romme.. There is not much demand for Morgan horses: I priced a pair to a Japanese the other day at $3,000 apiece. He wanted me to tell him how much he would have to pay for the best Morgan horses in the country, and that was my answer. That is the best answer I can give. It runs from there down. The Cuairman. Are they registered ? : Mr. Rommet. Yes. The Cuairman. Are all that you own registered ? Mr. Rommex. Yes; our Morgan horses are all registered. The Cuarrman. Is there anything else? Mr. Canpirr. Have you any horses in Virginia, at Front Royal? : x Rome. Yes; there are about 25 stallions stationed at Front oyal. Mr. Canpier. You said that you let out some of. those stallions, have stood them under certain regulations of the department ? Mr. Rommet. Yes. Mr. Canpier. What are they? % 324 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. Rommen. The two horses that were sent to North Carolina were sent down under condition that the farmers taking them were vouched for by the State College of Agriculture, that they should pay all the expenses, and they agreed not to charge over a cer- tain service fee. : Mr. CanprEr. They paid all the expenses for having them? Mr. Rommen. Yes; we are subject to no expense whatever, and we reserve the right to bring the horses back at any time if it seems de- sirable to do so. In the case of the horses in the Army work, the probability is that hereafter they will be stood at a flat service fee. The Cuarrman. You gave the number of stations, including the number of horses at each station ? Mr. Romer. If I may I will supply that for the record later. The Cuarrman. Is that all? Mr. Harrison. That is all. (The material referred to follows:) Breeding American utility horses, Buffalo, Wyo. Sex. Age. Breed. Num- es ber. Sex. Age. - Breed. Standard bred. Standard bred. 5 Do. Saddle. Utility. Utility, Do. Do. ~ Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Total number horses, 44. Production of horses for military purposes. Location. Number and breed. Location. Number and breed. Middlebury, Vt...-. 4 Morgan stallions. Front Royal, Va...| 9 thoroughbred stallions. Front Royal, Va....| 2 saddle stallions, Lexington, Ky.....| 6saddle stallions. es - DOs incicceascicsse 2 standard-bred stallions. DO owcenweccne tes 6 standard-bred stallions. Total number stallions, 29. Breeding Morgan horses, Morgan horse farm, Middlebury, Vt. . Age. Stallions.| Mares. | Total. 16 2 1 1 4 4 5 6 5 8 4 il 35 51 1 Does not include the 4 stallions in the Army horse-breeding work at Middlebury, Vt. STATEMENT OF DR. JOHN R. MOHLER, CHIEF OF THE BUREAU OF ANIMAL INDUSTRY, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE—Con- tinued. Dr. Mouser. The next item I would like to discuss is number 65, on page 54, “ for all necessary expenses for scientific investigations in diseases of animals, including the maintenance and improvement of AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 825 the bureau experiment station at Bethesda, Maryland.” With this appropriation, we are working on rabies, glanders, forage poisoning, anthrax, swamp fever, poultry diseases, parasites, and various other troubles of live stock. We are asking for an appropriation of $15,- 000 for the investigation of round worms of hogs. Recent investiga- tions have shown the great importance of parasitic round worms to the hog industry. These parasites are responsible for many of the losses among young pigs, amounting to millions every year. At the present time we have no allotment for this investigation, and therefore it is a new item proposed for next year’s estimates. There was a project for investigating round worms of hogs several years ago, but this was temporarily discontinued as a separate project and it should now be revived. Such experimental work is now in progress on a small scale, but should be greatly extended so as to cover conditions in various parts of the country. From preliminary experiments, it appears possible that these losses can be prevented by comparatively simple measures, but it is necessary first to carry out the tests of methods under actual field conditions in four or five selected localities of the country before it will be possible to establish the best methods for the control of the parasites in question. Those parasites you all know as the long white round worm in the intestines of hogs. You see thousands of them every time you go to the packing house and our men have found an entirely. new cycle in the life history ofthis round worm. Heretofore we have always thought the pigs drank stagnant water or ate contaminated feed, containing the little eggs of this parasite, and when they got into the intestines that those eggs hatched out and developed into this worm without leaving the intestines. Now the work of our laboratory men has shown that this old idea is erroneous. They have proved that after the eggs are hatched out the small larvee crawl up into the liver, and are carried by the blood into the lungs, causing pneumonia, which produces a great nunrber of deaths in young pigs. You will find the little larve of the worms going through this cycle, which must take place in the lung. After they have become a little larger in the lung tissue, they crawl up into the trachea (the wind pipe), and when they reach the gullet are swallowed and go down to the intestines where they develop into these long white worms. Heretofore the trouble they produce in the lungs has been called hog cholera, and various other terms, but nobody really knew the effect of this larval stage of the intestinal worm on the health of pigs until our laboratory workers made this discovery. The Cuarrman. Is it not a fact there are more losses from this worm than from hog cholera? . Dr. Mouuer. I would not want to say more, but I will say that there are very heavy losses from it. Mr. Les. Has there been any scientific investigation ? Dr. Mouter. That is what we want with this $15,000. The Cuarrman. What do you propose to do? ; Dr. Mouter. To get out into the corn belt and establish four or five stations for practical studies under field conditions. The Cuarrman. What are you going to do after you establish your stations? 326 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. We are going to cooperate with the producer of hogs, and get him to leave 50 per cent of the litters under the conditions he usually keeps his hogs. We will take the other 50 per cent and put them under what we term sanitary conditions, and administer treatment to see what the result will be. We want to establish a series of field experiments in four or five localities of the corn belt. Mr. Anperson. Is this to be a continuing item? Dr. Mouter. I do not see any necessity for its being a continuing item after we find out the proper methods of prevention. It will be merely a question of education after we find a satisfactory method for eliminating the danger. The Cuartrman. Do you propose to treat the hogs? Dr. Mouter. Yes; we are going to treat the hogs as well as handle them under sanitary conditions. We do not know all the things we are going to do yet, as they will be developed as the work proceeds; this is purely for an experimental investigation. We have one or two farmers cooperating with us in Illinois at the present time. They are standing all the expense and we want to duplicate that work in four or five other communities. As I say, we have already done a very limited amount of sanitary control work in this line that has produced very satisfactory results. It is more or less of a laboratory experiment now, and what we want to do is to extend it into the field to determine whether it is going to work out on a large scale or not. The Cuatrman. Are there any remedies on the market? Dr. Mouver. There are all kinds of remedies, yes, sir, that are being sold. Some are fair and some are no good. But there is no true remedy to-day. The Cuatrman. Do you propose to discover a new remedy ? Dr. Mouter. I do not think there is going to be any discovery of that kind, because after the little larvae get into the lung it is very hard to get rid of them in that structure. The need is to de- stroy the larva before it gets into the lung, or even before the egg reaches the intestinal tract. The Cuairman. How large is the worm? Dr. Mouter. The worm is 10 or 12 inches long, but the egg is microscopic. The little larve that develop, and which crawl up into the bile ducts and thence into the lung, are about a twelfth of an inch long, but they are so narrow that they are still microscopic. After they crawl up into the trachea and pass down the gullet into the intestines, they become mature and are then 10 or 12 inches long. The Cuatrman. Something like a tape worm? Dr. Mouter. No; it is a round worm. The Cuarrman. Similar to the worms children have? Dr. Mouter. Yes; probably the same thing as the long, white worm in babies. The Cuarruay. Is it confined to the intestines of hogs only? Dr. Monier. That is the thing we are interested in now. The re- sults of the work we are trying to do may be applicable to the health of children. Round worms are not infrequent in babies, and in the human family the life cycle of the worm takes the same course. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. How does it first get into the hog? Dr. Montrr. It is swallowed in feed or water. The feed or the water becomes contaminated by the feces of an infested animal . AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3827 carrying the female worm in the intestines. This female lays eggs, and those eggs pass out of the intestines in the feces and are de- posited on the feed or in the water. The Cuarrman. From cattle? Dr. Mouter. No; from hogs.. Heretofore we thought the hog swallowed the eggs and the eggs passed into the intestines and hatched out and became adult without leaving the intestines, but our work shows that this is not the case. It hatches out, but does not develop in the intestines at that time. It travels up the bile ducts and goes into the lung and causes pneumonia, and it is at this stage where the losses are so great. The Cuarrman. When did vou develop that? Dr. Mouter. It was just published recently, about four months ago. Mr. Sica You are furnishing that to all these county agents ¢ Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; but we have not enough information yet to decide which are the best and most practical preventive measures. It has been published in some scientific papers and news letters, but we want to get more practical results and then put it into the hands of the county agents or any other persons who can help handle this trouble. Mr. Rupey. How long have you been acquainted with this worm? Dr. Mouter. This worm has been known for over a hundred years, and has been important ever since parasites were studied. Mr. Rusry. How does it happen that we are just commencing to go. after it? Dr. Mounzer. It is the first time we knew the life cycle was as I have described it. Heretofore we have always considered the hog swallowed the egg ard the egg went into the intestines and hatched out and matured, just like the tape worm. But it is more like the hook worm; we used to think the children down in the South swal- lowed the hook worm larva and it developed in the intestines directly ; but now we know it penetrates through the healthy skin of the feet for instance, and after entering the circulation it reaches the lungs and then the intestines, like the hog worm. It is a wonderful require- ment of nature that certain worms have to go through the other tissues to get to the place where they are usually found. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. The main thing is to keep it out of the hog? , Dr. Mouter. That is it. Mr. McLaveuuw of Michigan. But you can not stop its move- ment after it gets into the hog? ; Dr. Mouter. No, sir; when it gets into the lung it is impossible. Mr. Jacoway. When the worm gets in the lung, what percentage of the hogs die? Dr. Monzer. Over 10 per cent of them die. Mr. Jacoway. When it gets into the hogs, what percentage of the herd is infected by this worm? Dr. Mouter. Usually where they have a large infestation they all get it. Me Jacoway. And when it strikes one herd it is pretty likely to go through it ? , x 328 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter, It is. The Cuatrman. Why could not this be done in connection with the hog-cholera work ? _Dr. Mouter. Because this is an experimental parasitic investiga- tion and the other is the practical eradication of infectious disease. This investigation is being carried on in our zoological laboratory, and hog-cholera control is under one of. our field divisions. The Cuairman. Are not the men assigned to the hog-cholera work capable of attending to this as well? Dr. Monier. No, sir. This work is done by trained zoologists— men familiar with the life histories of various parasites. If we had placed the men now engaged on hog-cholera work on this investiga- tion we woud never have found it. The Crairman. Could you not devote the funds for hog cholera to this work? Dr. Mouter. It is impossible to transfer our funds which are given to us specifically for hog cholera and apply them to the ade of parasites. : The Cuairman. We can change the language, if necessary. Dr. Mouter. I hope we will be given the $15,000 extra. We need this $15,000 for this specific purpose. ; The Cuarrman. When you start at $15,000 that means $150,000 the next year, and it will be up in the millions before we get through with it. Dr. Mouter. I will guarantee we won’t need any million dollars for this work. As I said to Mr. Anderson, this is not going to be a continuing appropriation. We started on this work before the war and stopped; we stopped all this kind of scientific investigations and Bor right down to brass tacks to study the things that were going to elp win the war. Now we have taken it up again and have been serie it on out of our general funds, and it has developed into a big thing. I would not be surprised but what the results these men will accomplish with this $15,000 will do more to help the hog industry than any other one item outside of the hog-cholera item. We are just beginning to learn about the great losses from this round worm. The Cuarrman. The trouble is that this $15,000 will be up in the millions in a very short time. Dr. Mouter. One of the scientists in the bureau published an article only a few months ago in the American Medical Association Journal, a leading journal of the physicians of the country, showing: the importance of the work to human life, and I think our estimate of $15,000: is very conservative. This is not the maximum amount they thought they could use; they could use a great deal more; but this is the conservative estimate of the department after consider- ing all of the possibilities. I do not know any $15,000 where we are going to show more results than from this particular item. Mr. Canpter. How long do you think it will take you to investi- gate it fully if you start this year and continue from time to time? Dr. Morter. You know scientific investigations go in a very peculiar line. You can not foretell—you can not foresee what is going to happen. You have to keep studying the problems until definite results are obtained. It is just like our studies of hog AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3829 cholera; we worked on hog cholera for 20 years before we found a serum for the disease. We may find a prophylactic treatment for this disease at any time. . _Mr. Canvter. But you do not think it will require any large addi- tion to the appropriation from year to year? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; it will not require any large addition to the appropriation from year to year. All we want to do to-day can be done in four or five different localities, and it will éost around $3,000 in each locality to do the work. Mr. Jacoway. If we give you $15,000 would you be willing to sign an affidavit that you will not want $30,000 next year? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; I will be glad to do that. This is a very conservative estimate, I think, considering, as I said before, the im- portance and the potentialities of this work. And you know in your section the hog raiser has more trouble with worms than any other thing outside of hog cholera. itself. The Cuatrman. There is no question as to the merit of the propo- sition, but how are we going to handle it? It seems to me you might connect it with some other activity and do away with some of those overhead charges and continuing appropriations. Dr. Mouter. We are asking in this appropriation for $141,450. That covers all of our investigations of animal diseases. This hog- cholera work you are speaking of is eradication work. The Cuarrman. Why can you not draw on the general funds for the diseases there and use part of them for this purpose? Mr. Trycuer. I like this kind of an appropriation, but what I do not like about it is the next one, for instance, containing new items for your work. The Government spends money to find out how to treat it and take care of it, and then I do not like, as the Chairman says, the $1,000,000 we have to spend after that to force the fellow interested to use the treatment after you find it out for him. I do no think there is any occasion on earth for the Govern- ment to spend a dime now to persuade people to use the hog cholera treatment. You have the treatment; you have the vaccine that will prevent it; and anyone who is interested to the extent of owning hogs ought to have enough thrift, without the parental guidance of the Government, to use it. Mr. Hertr. But, if he won’t use it, the Government must use its power to suppress the disease. The Crarrman. What is the next item, Doctor? Dr. Monier. The next item is an increase of $4,000 in our animal- disease investigations, for developing and thoroughly testing a new method for blackleg immunization. This method gives promise of being a more effective agent against blackleg than the old powder form of vaccine which we are giving out at the present time. At present we have no appropriation specifically for this purpose. I would like to say, during this last year the amount of blackleg vaccine distributed to stock owners was over 4,000,000 doses. Due to improved methods of immuization now in vogue throughout the country for blackleg, we have conducted experiments along these lines, and material progress has been made. Lack of sufficient help and, moreover, insufficient funds to conduct, extensive experiments with large experimental animals has hampered the work so that it is not conclusive. 330 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Definite mention should be made of the improved method of im- munization by combining blackleg filtrate and killed prodigiosus cultures. These tests, of necessity, were conducted with small ani- mals, yet the results obtained were so pronounced that it is most desirable to finish up this work on cattle, where it is felt the great advance of this method over the plain filtrates will be demonstrated. The new laboratory at Bethesda needs some rather expensive equip- ment to inaugurate the production and distribution of filtrates for the blackleg disease, and.only when so equipped will it be possible to turn out the product in quantities for distribution to the cattlemen who are now requesting a better product than the powder form of vaccine. It is suggested that $4,000 be made available for the pro- duction of blackleg filtrates for immunization purposes and for laboratory equipment to make this product of the highest potency. Mr. McLaveu.in of Michigan. Speaking generally of these vac- cines and serums, you recall that only i years ago there was great difficulty in getting the pure stuff. The private manufacturers cid not turn out the right kind of stuff, it was-not reliable, and some of the States had difficulty. Your bureau had confidence in a stuff you made yourself, or which was made under your direction. What is the general situation now? ‘Are they making all those different things better, and so on, and in sufficient quantity ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. You remember, Mr. Chairman, as the result of the act of Congress of 1913, the preparation of all these biological products for use on animals has been placed under the Secretary of Agriculture. The result has been we have supervision over ailthe establishments that prepare these serums, vaccines, and toxins for interstate commerce. And I think you will find the consensus of opinion of the users of those products is that the results have been very much more satisfactory. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You have inspectors then at each one of the private places where any of this kind off stuff is made? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir; we have them all under supervision. We do not have a man in each place. We have a man in every place where hog cholera serum is prepared, and he is given a territory contiguous to those serum plants in order that he may cover the firms that make tuberculin, vaccines, mallein, etc. a Mr. McLaueuitn of Michigan. How large an inspection force have you in these different factories? Dr. Mouter. That will come up in another item, but the number is about 94 at the present time. Mr. Jacoway. From this hog-cholera propaganda, or policy, that the Government has been engaged in for several years, what per cent of the herd do you imagine is preserved and kept from dying? Dr. Mouurr. That will come under the hog-cholera item, but I may answer your question specifically in saying that this last year the lesses from hog cholera have been reduced to 37 per thousand hogs, which is the lowest in 36 years and is principally the result of the cooperative work of the States and the Federal Government in this hog-cholera-eradication campaign. That will come up in an- other item. Mr. Trxcuer. I see you say, “Testing a new method of blackleg immunization.” Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 331 Mr. ‘VtnxcueEr. The old method which was used made immune for one year? Now they have a method by which they are made immune for all time? Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. Trxcuer. Whose device is that new method? Is that the Governnent’s method or some State’s? Dr. Mouter. The original work was done by one of the biological companies in the East and then was taken up at your Kansas ex- periment station by two of the workers there. Mr. Tincuer. There is no question about the success of that serum? » Dr. Mouter. No, sir; it is very satisfactory. But we can not sup- ply that, because we would have to have about 20,000 calves brought into Washington to make an aggressin similar to what is made at the Kansas Agricultural College. Mr. Tivcuer. Here is what I am getting at: Any man who wants to now, who owns a herd of cattle, can buy a vaccine? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Myr. Trxcuer. And when they vaccinate a calf they can make it immune for life? Dr. Mouter. That is right. Mr. Trxcuer. That has been-tested and found to be a success? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trxcuer. Now, you intend that the Government find a cheaper vaccine that will do that; is that the idea? Dr. Mounier. That is the idea, to make a vaccine here in Washing- ton that will be just as efficacious and less difficult to prepare than the method of producing aggressin. ; Mr. Trncuer. And you ground your work on what the Kansas Agricultural College has done? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir; to some extent. Mr. Trxcuer. It costs now in the neighborhood of 30 cents to vaccinate the animal and to make him immune for life? Dr. Mouter. That is right. Mr. Tiycuer. But there is no question about the success of the vaccine ? Dr. Monter. It is quite satisfactory. Mr. Rusey. In the present method, they have to have some sort of an instrument ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. - Mr. Rusey. And in the new method—— Dr. Mouter. In the present method we have a powder. We make a suspensiqn by grinding it up with a mortar and pestle, place it in a syringe, and inject it into the animal. We are working on this new solution now, and all we will need is a hypodermic syringe, which will do away with the mortar and pestle, grinding, filtering, etc. Mr. McLavcuttn of Michigan. Do you require the services of a skilled man to demonstrate this remedy ? Dr. Mouter. No; we are distributing these 4,000,000 doses to the stock raisers throughout the country, and they, as a rule, perform the operation themselves. . All you have to do is to make a hypoder- mic injection; you do not have to take any readings or anything of that kind after the injection. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You just give the animal a shot of it and let it go at that? 332 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. That is all that is necessary. The Cuarrman. The treatment is similar to that for hog cholera? Dr. Mouter. Only it is simpler to apply, because in the treatment for hog cholera you give a serum and a virus, and the virus is a deadly product and may cause death if it is not. handled properly, This agressin is absolutely inert and does not produce any disease; but will prevent the disease. Mr. Tixcuer. The treatment is the same as the old method, only it gives immunity for life instead of for one year? Dr. Mouter. That is it. _ Mr. Trycuer. Your idea is with this appropriation to find some- thing that can be manufactured cheaper and furnished the people cheaper ¢ Dr. Mouter. We are not satisfied in giving out 4,000,000 doses of blackleg’ powder when some commercial concerns are selling other kinds of blackleg products which may be superior. And we can not possibly make blackleg aggressin, because we would have to buy 20,000 calves, bring them to Washington, inoculate them, produce a blackleg swelling and then, after the calf dies, take the blackleg tissue and make the aggressin. That is why it costs from 380 to 385 cents, because you have to use a calf every time you make from 500 to 1,200 doses of the aggressin. The way we make the powder is to inoculate the calf, and after it dies, take the infected meat and dry it. We then make a dough of it by adding water, and bake it, and then grind it up into a powder. We get about 30,000 doses from every calf. Mr. Trxcuer. What is the object of the Government in keeping up the manufacture and free distribution of one-year unmunity vaccine ? Dr. Mouter. As far as I am concerned, there will be no objections to stopping it. It is on the same principle as. giving away flower seeds the way we do every year. Mr. Trycuer. There is now a preparation on the market that has been demonstrated a success. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. | Mr. Trncuer. And 90 per cent of it is sold by private companies? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. By correspondence with your department, I could write you and get, for nothing, just as good a vaccine for cattle as I want, but my neighbor goes out and buys it. Dr. Mouter.- It is routine work with us. We just inoculate the calves, produce blackleg meat, bake it, grind it np into a powder and send ittoyou. Itis purely aroutine procedure. Youcan buy blackleg vaccines In many towns in the West. We would be pleased to be relieved of the necessity of making that material, but as long as a Congressman asks for so many doses for his constituents, we are glad to supply it. I think our province is to make investigations in a fundamental way, to find a proper method, and then when we find it, to let commercial houses manufacture and sell it to the coun- try. : Mr. McLaueutun of Michigan. That is along my talk yesterday. Dr. Mouusr. This is,a different kind of a proposition from what we discussed yesterday. We have to be the leaders in eradication AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3833 and control work, and we have been the leaders in this blackleg vac- cine work for twenty years. This was started in 1896, but we should be permitted to adopt new methods or stop. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. But you do not have to be leaders and laborers, too? Dr. Moutsr. You know the tuberculin test we discussed yesterday takes considerable judgment outside of the manual labor involved. Mr. Trncuer. How much of the appropriation is used for the free distribution of a vaccine of that kind? Dr. Mouter. We have no specific appropriation for this work now. It is a very inexpensive affair. We use several veterinarians part of the time on this work. We send one man out to the experiment sta- tion to-day and some other inspector next week. There are also two clerks employed for handling the mail, keeping records, etc. We are asking for a specific appropriation of $4,000 for this par- ticular project. Mr: Tincuer. I think you ought to have the $4,000, but I wonder if you can not take that out of the fund with which you have been furnishing free vaccine which has already been tested and of which everybody knows the merits? Dr. Mouzzr. No, we could not. You gentlemen gave us enough money, $5,000, two or three years ago, before the war, to build a laboratory to develop this work. The laboratory was not built, for the reason that we did not want to do any building during the war period. Now, we have the laboratory there and we want to equip it. During that interval, we have been working in the laboratory piece-meal on various investigations of blackleg, and we have found that this combination of a blackleg filtrate with a prodigiosus germ, has produced very satisfactory results in the vaccination of the smaller animals. . Mr. Trxcuer. What do you think about the policy of encourag- ing a man now to use the one-year vaccine from the standpoint of producing results? ‘ - Dr. Mouter. It is not nearly as satisfactory as to make the animal immune for a longer period, of course. Mr. Trncuer. It just occurred to me, if a man wrote to me and asked me to get him free vaccine for one year’s immunity, if I was honest with him, I would write and tell him he did not want it. Dr. Mouter. If my friends wrote and asked me whether they should use blackleg powder or aggressin, I think I would tell them what I thought of the powder and to buy the best they could get. I do not like to be in the position of distributing 4,000,000 doses of something that is not the best on the market, and I think we ought to receive funds to improve the product and find something which is most satisfactory. Mr. Anprerson. Why can you not stop it if you want to? Is there any law to prevent that? Dr. Mouter. Because you send in a request for the bureau to furnish John Jones, of Minnesota, with 100 doses of blackleg vac- cine. » Mr, Anverson. No, I never did that. What do you want us to do; to put a limitation on this appropriation to the effect that it. can no longer be done? 334 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Moutzr. It would require a specific statement to the effect that hereafter none of this money shall be used for the distribu- tion of blackleg vaccine. That is the only way I can see you can stop it. As long as there is no provision against it, we will have to comply with the requests of Congressmen. i Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. That is in this paragraph, is it? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Witson. If that is true, why do you want to develop a new method ? Dr. Mouter. Because, as I tell you, the old method is not as satisfactory as what we think this new method will be. Mr. Trycuer. The old method makes a calf immune for one year. They use that because they can get it free. There is a new method which is absolutely satisfactory and a success and it makes them immune for life. Mr. Wuson. If they know that method, why don’t they use it? Mr. Trncurr. The Government does not know that method; Kansas knows it. That is, the Government knows it, but it can not furnish it. — Dr. Mouter. Of course, we know it, but the method of Kansas is the most expensive method and now we are trying to get the same results with a cheaper method. The next item is for an increased allotment of $1,650 to extend the investigations of stock: poisoning by plants. Our present allot- ment is $11,450, which does not allow for much work outside of that carried on in connection with livestock interests in the Western States. There are many problems in the East and in the South which should be investigated. From the South especially many complaints are made of the loss of live stock from presumably poi- -sonous plants, with demands for investigation. ‘These demands can not be met without additional appropriations. It is also de- sirable that more should be spent for investigation in the West, and in order that the results of the work can be made available to the stock people, it is important that it should be possible to respond with more freedom to requests for addresses at live-stock conventions. If these things are done it will be necessary to add to cur present funds, and it would seem that a total appropriation should be made of not less than $13,100. It perhaps should be stated that this sum will not permit any great enlargement of the work and that a much larger sum could readily be used. Mr. Anperson. How long has this contagious abortion work been going on? Dr. Mouter. It has been going on for four years. Mr. Anverson. It strikes me it has been going on as long as I have been on this committee and before that. Dr. Mouter. I think you will find it is about four years. Mr. Witson. Contagious abortion? Dr. Mouter. Yes; of cattle. Mr. McLauveutrn of Michigan. Have you not learned all there is to know about that and how to treat it? = Dr. Mouter. If you would attend some of these conventions and. hear the discussions you would think there were as many ways to ‘treat it as there are men who talk on it. - Mr. McLavucututn of Michigan. It is the same old thing. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3835 Dr. Monuer. Yes; no great discovery of value for handling con- tagious abortion has been made like that for the elimination of ticks, the eradication of scabies, and the prevention of hog cholera. The present position of the investigation of abortion in cattle is about the.same as the investigation of influenza in men. ‘There has not been any panacea found as yet, and we are still investigating the whole problem. Mr. Trncuer. Every manufacturing institution that manufactures serums pretends every spring they have an absolutely new one that will positively cure it; but they are all failures. Dr. Monier. Yes; not one is past the experimental stage as yet. We are doing more to get control of contagious abortion by apply- ing sanitary measures and by keeping heifers that become pregnant away from aborting cows, using the herd-management method, with sanitary measures. That has been the most satisfactory method that has developed thus far. There is a great conflict of opinion, you know, with regard to this disease. One investigator says the bull carries the disease to the cow and the other expert says it all comes from the mammary gland, that the infection enters through the teats of the cow; another fellow says the infection comes from contami- nated feed. These investigations take a long time, because a cow has only cne calf in the year and you can not rush these experiments when studying a disease like abortion. Mr. Trncuer. There are lots of herds of cows in the United States, and that item would not cover the loss in cows next spring in one herd. Dr. Mouter. That is true. Mr. Tincuer. If they have any, prospect of finding a cure for abortion of cows, the appropriation does not amount to anything. The Cuarrman. Are you making any progress on this? Dr. Mouter. Yes; weare. But, as I say, the work is slow; at most, you get only one line of results from one animal in one year, because we are working with the pregnant animal entirely. Conclusions are liable to be wrong when drawn from a few experiments, and therefore we try to have the work checked well. The next item is No. 66, on page 56, “ For investigating the dis- ease of hog cholera and for its control or eradication.” The old ap- propriation is for $641,045, and we are asking for $658,945, which is an actual increase of $30,000. We are asking for this additional amount in order properly to carry out the provisions of the act requiring the supervision of the manufacture of viruses, serums, toxins, and analogous products. On the point brought up by Mr. Jacoway a few minutes ago, we have at the present time 95 plants under license. Last year we had only 88. This year we have 135 licenses issued, against 126 last year. So you will note a considerable increase of the number of plants which are now manufacturing bio- logical products. Mr. McLaucuun of Michigan. Do you have any difficulty in making these plants comply with your regulations? Dr. Monter. No, sir; we are having very good results in getting their cooperation. Mr. McLaveutan of Michigan. Do you see a marked improvement in the quality of their products? : 336 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; and also the users say the same thing. I just want to call attention to the fact that the quantity of anti- hog-cholera serum produced in the calendar year 1918 was 1382.5 per ‘cent more than the average for the last three previous years. It was also 111 per cent more than that produced in the preceding calendar year. The quantity produced from January to October, inclusive, in 1918, was 409,473,248 ¢. ¢c., while for the same period in 1919, 582,662,674 c. c. were produced, or 42.2 per cent more than for the same period of the preceding year. During the fiscal year ending June 30, 1919, there was produced 148 per cent more antihog-cholera serum than for the preceding fiscal year. This large increase in the volume of products produced of course means that all details relating to inspection are likewise increased in volume. Such details include the inspection of animals presented for admission to licensed estab- lishments, as well as each time before these animals are bled for serum or virus purposes. They also include the supervision of tests made to determine the purity and potency of the product produced. Numerous other details, including the supervision of all operations, are also included. Mr. Hourcuinson. What are the results of this increase; have you reduced hog cholera? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; to 37 deaths per 1,000 hogs. Mr. Hourcuinson. Have you the figures there? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. That is one of the reasons we want $30,000 additional to supervise biological plants making hog-cholera vaccine, tuberculin, mallein, and these various other products, so that only the best serum and vaccine will be prepared. The Cuarmrman. What is the current value of the output of all these plants? ; Dr. Monter. There were 582,662,674 cubic centimeters. The Cuarrman. About how much per cubic centimeter ? Dr. Mouter. I should think that the average price, taking whole- sale and retail rates, would be about 1 cent a cubic centimeter. So you can figure it out quickly by putting your decimal point in front of the last two figures. Mr. McKinzey. Between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000 worth. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. This increase of the production of the serum, the demand for it, is accounted for by two reasons: One, the increased value of the hog? Dr. Mouter. That is right. _ Mr. Tincuer. And another-is the fact that the hog raiser and pro- ducer knows if he will vaccinate his pigs he can make them immune from cholera? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. What do you think of this proposition: While its use is certainly commendable and it was a great thing for the Gov- ernment to demonstrate and to find out for the producer and for the private manufacturers of serums, to investigate their plants’ and inspect them and make them comply with Government regulations in the manufacture of the serum, why is not that all the money now the Government ought to continue to spend on hog-cholera vaccine, just to make the private owners of the plants comply with the Govern- ment regulations, and buy the right kind of hogs for the purpose of AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 337 making it? Has not the experiment on the hog-cholera vaccine gone sufficiently far? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; we believe that is true, so far as the experi- ment on the use of the hog cholera serum is concerned. But it is like all of our infectious disease work, we are endeavoring to pro- tect the Nation’s live-stock industry. The organic act creating the Department of Agriculture states that its function is to develop and disseminate information along agricultural lines. I feel sure you could meet a lot of people in the next few years who had never heard anything about the hog cholera serum. And if you are going to protect the food industry of the country, the department will have to keep on educating the farmers and the hog raisers, for in- fectious diseases know nothing of State lines. Mr. Anperson. What is the character of the eradication work you are doing now? Is it intensive work in a few counties, or is it scattered all over the country? Dr. Mouter. There has been no relaxation of effort, reduction in the field force, or in the scope of the work of the hog cholera eradi- cation division since the termination of the war. The hog cholera activities continue to be carried on in 34 of the principal hog-raising States in cooperation with the State regulatory authorities and ex- tension divisions of the State agricultural colleges. The efforts are State-wide, or as nearly so as the funds will permit. At present 143 veterinary inspectors are engaged in hog-cholera control work. In 10 States, namely, California, Colorado, Montana, Louisiana, Kentucky, Nebraska, Ohio, South Dakota, South Carolina, and Tennessee, the hog-cholera control work has been consolidated with the other bureau animal-disease work and in each State the con- solidated work has been placed under one directing head who di- vides his time, as necessary, among the different lines of work. It is the policy of the bureau to gradually extend its organization to other States with the view of reducing overhead expenses and in- creasing efficiency through creating more elasticity of the working force. The results obtained during the fiscal year ended June 30, 1919, are gratifying. The number of outbreaks of cholera reported were 12,336; investigations made on farms where outbreaks of disease occurred, 51,022; post-mortems conducted on farms, 53,586; meet- ings held in hog-raising districts, 2,734; attendance at the meetings -held in hog-raising districts, 78,584; inspectors’ personal interviews with live-stock owners, 315,359; farm visits made, 93,512; miles traveled by bureau representatives, 2,029,519; hogs treated by bureau representative as demonstrations, 233,957; farms quarantined, 9,564; infected premises cleaned and disinfected, 4,382; number of hogs on farms January 1, 1918, 71,374,000; number of hogs on farms Jan- uary 1, 1919, 75,587,000, and increased production during past year, 4,913,000. The mortality of swine from all diseases was further reduced to 41.4 per 1,000, which is equivalent to about 37 per 1,000 from hog cholera, which is the lowest mortality that has been recorded in 36 years. The reports seem to indicate that during the present year even better results are being obtained. The men in the field are not directing their efforts so much to treating large numbers of hogs ‘themselves as in teaching veterinary practitioners and others how 164815—20——22 338 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. properly to make the diagnosis and administer the treatment; also in showing farmers through demonstrations, lectures, and personal in- terviews on the farm how they may protect themselves against losses from hog cholera and other swine diseases. This class of animal disease work is constantly growing in popularity, as evidenced by in- creased demands for extension of the service in States where it is being pursued, as well as to new States. The experimental period of hog cholera work has been passed in most of the 34 States and it is gradually assuming a more intensive form. Although the bureau is confident that much good could be accomplished in the conservation of swine by increasing the funds, it feels that it is not justified in asking for an increase in the appro- priation until the States make specific appropriations to cooperate with the bureau in this work on a 50-50 basis. On the other hand, it is believed that there should be no decreast in the appropriation, nor relaxation in the field activities, but that special consideration in the allotment of National Government funds should be given to those eae that. provide funds to cooperate with the bureau on an equal asis. Mr. Anperson. You spoke of some 300,000 interviews with producers of the States. What do you mean by that? Dr. Mouter. That means our men have gone to the farms or had their meetings in different places, in schooJhouses, courthouses, at picnics, and places of that character, and have met these men and dis- cussed the methods of hog cholera eradication. Mr. Anperson. That means just conversations; it does not mean any demonstrations or anything of that sort? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. Demonstrations have been made on 233,000 hogs. These others are personal interviews with live-stock owners. Mr. Canpter. They discuss methods of procedure and it is the giv- ing of information and securing of information from them? Dr. Mouter. Everything pertaining to the eradication of cholera. Mr. Jacoway. How many hogs have been saved by giving this treatment; do you know? Dr. Mouter. We have no way of determining that because we do not do any actual work except demonstrations. The only thing I can say as to the demonstration of the results is that the loss from hog cholera last year was the lowest for many years, namely, 37 out of every 1,000 hogs. Mr. Jacoway. I think your work is a great work, and I just wanted the record to disclose here for the benefit of others what good you are doing and how you spend this money. I am sure it is a good work, and I am in favor of it and very much interested. Dr. Mouter. Yesterday I spoke of our men having supervised the vaccination of over 640,000 hogs in public stockyards. That was probably three times more than was done the year before and twenty times more than was done in 1917. The only way we can get a line on the results is in the general benefit, so far as the loss reduction is concerned, throughout the entire country. And as I said before, those losses are lower last year than they have been for 386 years. Mr. Anverson. Is not the loss relatively lower in the States in which you did the work than in the others? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3839 Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; a great deal’ We did most of the inten- sive work in the hog-raising States. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. In showing the value and result of your work, would it not be well for you to make a comparison with other years, showing what the percentages were in those other years? You say 37 was the lowest. If you give the percentage of loss in other years, that will show it. Dr. Monter. I have a little diagram here. It shows the high points, and here is July 1, 1918, the highest loss in the history of the country, but you see it has come down lower and lower since then [indicating on the chart]. Mr. Rusey. In 1913, we began this work ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McKintry. What was the per cent in 1913? Dr. Monter. As I recall, it was about 118 hogs per 1,000. Mr. McKintey. And now it is a third of that? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. From memory I think it is 118 deaths per thousand hogs. Last year it was 42, in 1917 it was 48, and in 1916 it was 66 per thousand. Mr. Anpverson. Is not this disease more or less an epidemic dis- ease, and does it not fluctuate very greatly under normal conditions? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; it is just the same as influenza or any other epidemic. Mr. Anprrson. So that the reduction of the percentage of mor- tality would not be conclusive at all unless it covered a series of years? Dr. Mouter. It is not conclusive, but it is strong circumstantial evidence. Mr. Rusey. Now you have been working on this since 1913, and you have a yearly record of what has been accomplished and the losses that have been entailed, so that you have a series of years over which you can make comparisons? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Rueey. And making your comparison over those series of years, what is your opinion as to this work? Dr. Mouter. I believe that the cooperative work of the bureau with the various State and county agencies, and with the farmers them- selves, has been largely responsible for holding this disease in check, and that the work should be continued along present lines. Six or eight years ago we could see hog cholera start on a man’s farm and from that primary seat of infection scatter around to all the farms in that county and even to adjacent counties and States: Now, I know of a number of States last year that had primary out- breaks on an individual farm, but the outbreak was stopped right there on that farm and not one case of secondary infection occurred on the adjacent farms. J consider that not a case of Providence pre- venting the epizootic spread of the disease, but I believe it was due entirely to the educational work our cooperating forces are doing. They go right to the farm as soon as they hear of an outbreak, and when that outbreak stops on the first farm in one case after another it certainly is not the result of anything else but the amount of work the inspectors perform with the other farmers in the locality to keep it from spreading to these secondary points. And the holding of the 340 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. disease to the primary farm, where the infection first occurred, has been accomplished time and time again in the last two years. Mr. Anverson. I do not want to detract from the value of any- thing you are doing, but I do not think it is necessary to give the Department of Agriculture credit for increasing the’ food supply of the country every time it wins. Dr. Mourer. No; I would not want to do that, but I am telling you why I consider this work is producing these fine results. Mr. Trxcurr. Is there any locality in the United States where the hog producer can afford to take any chances on cholera? Dr. Mouter. Yes, in cases like the gentleman cited yesterday, in Michigan, New York, and Pensylvania, and places where there is very little hog cholera and little likelihood of having any hog cholera. It would be foolish for him to use the serum and virus on his hogs unless there is some outbreak in the vicinity of his herd. But in your State it is a different proposition. Mr. Tixcuer. You spoke there of vaccinating so many hogs at the stockyard markets. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trncuer. There is no market in the United States where you can afford to take stock hogs out without that? Dr. Mouter. None at all. Mr. Trncuer. Every man who purchases stock hogs in the open market knows he can not afford to remove them without vaccinating them against cholera? Dr. Mouter. That is true. Mr. Trncuer. The vaccine is manufactured in all those market centers, is it not? . Dr. Mouter. True. Mr. Trycuer. By private companies? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincuer. And those companies are under Government super- vision by your inspectors? Dr. Mouter. All of them are that do an interstate business. Mr. Tincuer. And if a man goes to the open market and buys stock hogs he wants to get the serum there to vaccinate them be- fore he takes the hogs away from that market, and they do that at their own expense? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Trxcuer. And the function of the Government is to see that the man who manufactures that serum has complied with the regula- tions and that the man gets a good serum. There is nothing compli- cated about administering the serum ? Dr. Mouter. No. They have local men doing that in all these stockyards and our men are present to supervise the work and see that it is done properly. That is all we do. For instance, we do not approve of a man vaccinating a hog which has a temperature above a certain point, 104, because that animal is apt to be coming down with cholera and if he is vaccinated he will probably die. Mr. Trxcuer. There is no vaccine that is a cure for cholera? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. Mr. Tincuer. It is purely a preventive? Dr. Mouter. Purely a preventive; yes, sir. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 841 Mr. Trxcuer. As you say, in my locality the only safe thing to do when you purchase a hog is to vaccinate him. Dr. Mouurr. That is true. But you can understand in States where they have little cholera present, where there is very little source of exposure, it is not’ necessary to vaccinate until hog cholera comes somewhere in the vicinity. Mr. Trncuer. I see you have in your report some method of quar- antining farms? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Tincuer. That method would be a little inconsistent with a vaccine as a preventive treatment. Dr. Monter. That is where hogs have contracted cholera and are dying on the farm. We are cooperating with the State. We can not quarantine a farm, but some of our men hold State positions, as State assistants, and they are working as State representatives when they quarantine these farms, so that the animals will be buried or burned and the premises disinfected. Mr. Trycuer. The Government’s policy or the Government’s theory, or the theory of your department, rather, is, instead of the neighbor insisting on there being a quarantine on that farm, he should use the vaccine? Dr. Mouter. That is our judgment; and until he does vaccinate his well hogs and burns or buries the carcasses of the dead hogs they will not allow a fellow farmer to come there to visit him, nor is he allowed to visit others. That is the quarantine; the farm is only quantined until the dead animals are disposed of and the premises disinfected. Mr. Jacoway. Dogs will carry it? Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. Jacoway. And birds will carry it? Dr. Mouter. Yes. Mr. Jacoway. How can you prevent that? Dr. Mounier. That is one of the serious difficulties we try to over- come. Mr. Trxcuer. You do not attempt to prevent that? Dr. Mouterr. No, sir. Once ina while the farmers will try to shoot the pigeons from the neighboring farm or they will shoot their own. But we can not control the birds of the air. The only way to prevent whatever infection they carry from doing serious damage is to have your hogs protected by vaccination. Mr. Hutcurnson. The person who gathers up garbage in the cities and feeds it to his hogs—I notice they have more trouble from cholera with those people than any place else. That is one of the causes ? Dr. Mouter. That is one of the causes. That has been worked out very nicely in Canada. They found a great many outbreaks were the result of garbage being fed to the hogs. Mr. Trxcuer. No man has a right to produce hogs by feeding garbage without immunizing the hogs. Dr. Moutuer. No, sir; that is the solution for it. If aman wants to feed garbage to his hogs, he ought to buy hog cholera serum and vaccinate the hogs to be fed. Mr. Anverson. The regulations of serums and toxins relates to other serums and toxins than for hog cholera, does it not? 342 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. _Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; it relates to mallein, tuberculin, abortion vac- cines, hemorrhagic septicemia vaccines, etc. Mr. Anprrson. The reason I ask the question is because it struck me that the first proviso in this item was rather out of place and, in view of the fact that this proviso covers a whole lot of things other than hog cholera, it ought to be in a separate item. Dr. Mouter. The point there, Mr. Anderson, is the greatest volume of the work is done on the hog cholera serum. We have a large number of serum plants under supervision which make only hog cholera serum, 58 this year, while only 30 plants are making solely biological products like mallein, bacterins, and tuberculin. This last group is larger in the quantity of products handled, but smaller in the number of plants. ' The next item will be found on page 58, item 67, “ for all necessary expenses for the investigation, treatment, and eradication of dourine.” I only ‘want to say a few words about that. There has been no request for an increase in the appropriation, but I wish to refer to the progress that has been made. In the areas in the Central West and Northwest, where work on dourine eradication has been carried on for a number of years, gratifying progress toward the final elimination of the disease has been made. In the State of Iowa eradication has been entirely com- pleted, and in the States of Wyoming, Nebraska, and North Dakota it has been practically completed. While reactors to the test in con- siderable numbers were found during the past season in Montana and South Dakota, these numbers form a very small percentage of the total number of animals tested in those States. It will be neces- sary, however, to make further tests of animals in certain regions during the coming season which runs from about April 1 to Novem- ber 1, and which includes four months of the fiscal year 1921. In the States of Arizona and New Mexico, where the work was much more recently begun, a large amount of work remains to be done. A comprehensive campaign has been conducted during the past season, during which large numbers of animals were tested, and a high percentage of reactors found, especially in Arizona. Fairly good success was had in accomplishing the destruction of reacting animals. Owing to the nature of the country, however, the great distances from the railroads to the horse ranges, and the fact that most of the animals involved are owned by Indians living under a tribal form of government, the work is carried on under the greatest difficulties, and, as field transportation has to be used extensively, it is relatively quite expensive. ; : Tf the advantage gained by the intensive work carried on during the past seasons is not to be lost, it is important that such work be continued. It is hoped that with another season’s work the disease will be practically eliminated from the Central and Northwest, but it will be necessary to continue for some time in the two southwest- ern States named. ; With reference to the work done during this period, there were 8,523 horses tested in Montana, with 178 reactors, or 2 per cent. In North Dakota there were 1,372 tested, nine reactors, .6 per cent. In South Dakota, 16,172 horses tested, 105 reactors, .6 per cent. In Wyoming, 830 horses tested, 16 reactors, 1.9 per cent. In Arizona, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3438 14,701 horses tested, with 761 reactors, 5.17 per cent. That is the largest percent of all the States where this disease exists. In New Mexico, there were 3,429 horses tested, with 54 reactors, the per cent - being 1.57, That makes a total of 45,027 horses tested, with 1,118 reactors, and an average of 2.4 per cent. Mr. McLaueutrn of Michigan. Have you the percentages for other years, showing your progress? Will you put that in the record? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The percentage for the last three years has been a little under 3 per cent. In 1914, 2,550 cases were found; in 1915, 1,515 cases; in 1916, 1,400 cases; in 1917, 1,225 cases; in 1918, 1,018 cases. on MelATEEEIN of Michigan. When you find a reactor, what do you do? Dr. Monter. Have him slaughtered, and pay an indemnity of not to exceed $100 as the Government’s share. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. You have not found any way of treating it? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. ‘ i Me McLaveuttn of Michigan. You find it principally in stal- ions ? Dr. Mouter. Principally in stallions and breeding mares. It is called horse syphilis and only occurs in breeding animals. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. It is spread by the stallions? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir. Our results this year would be a great deal better if it were not for the numerous nests of disease we found on the Indian reservations in Arizona. Out of 14,701 animals tested in that State we found 5.17 per cent reactors. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. Do the Indians raise the kind of horse that is sold elsewhere than where it is raised ? Dr. Mouurre. No; and they have hundreds of horses for each In- dian, where they only need to have four or five. We hoped when this meat inspection for horses was, established they would dispose of a lot of horses for slaughter, and no doubt that will occur before another vear rolls around; but there has scarcely been time since the first of July, the date that law went into effect. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. The horses from the Indian reser- vations are not apt to reach the other sections of the country ? Dr. Monter. No, sir. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. And there is not likely to be much communication of the disease from that source ? Dr. Moutrr. No, sir; and those sections are quarantined by the States so there is no possibility of the horses getting away. Our greatest difficulty is to get the Indians to round them up. We have to go there in the round-up season, and it is very hilly ground, so you never catch 100 per cent of the animals you go after. If you jeave one infected stallion behind he may serve fifty or 60 mares dur- ‘ing the next season, and the next year you find all of those mares with the disease. a : : The CuarrMan. We started the appropriation for this purpose in 1918 with the view of stamping it out and solving the problem quickly. ; i Dr. Mpan Yes, sir; $100,000 was first appropriated. And _ last year we asked to have a reduction made of $8,000, and that was done. 344 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. You started with $99,000, and now we are only down to $85,000. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuairman. I thought you might reduce this materially from year to year, and that by this time we would not be called upon for an appropriation. Dr. Mou.er. We could have expected a reduction had it not been for these numerous nests of disease found in Arizona. We have got some hard work before us there and we would scarcely expect a fur- ther reduction of this appropriation if wé are to get through with this disease in the next few years. The Cuarrman. It is absolutely necessary to have the full amount? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. ; a McLaveutrn of Michigan. Does that disease prevail in Mex- ico ? Dr. Mouter. In old Mexico? Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Yes. Dr. Mouter. No, sir; not so far as we know. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Not so far as you know? Dr. Monter. You know live-stock sanitary work down there is on a very low level; we do not know much about what they have down there except by carefully inspecting the animals which are imported into this country. The Cuairman. You want to give special attention to Montana and what other State? Dr. Mou.trr. We want to give special attention to Arizona and New Mexico. Montana only had 173 cases, and North Dakota only nine. Mr. Ler. Have you made good progress in those States? Dr. Monuter. Yes, sir. As I said before, we will clean up most of the Northwestern States in another year’s work. If we could go into those States and round up 100 per cent of the horses, we could clean up all of them in one season, but we never get a round-up of 100 per cent; and if we leave one stallion behind you have 50 or 60 mares, or more, served by him, which will be diseased the next year. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. And the foals, too? , Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; very often. Mr. Pourneui. Have you found any of the disease farther east than Dr. Mouter. We have never found it farther east than Jlinois. We had an outbreak in Illinois in 1888, and then it was carried by one stallion from Bloomington, Il., to Rushville, Nebr., and thence to the Pine Ridge Reservation, where it took 14 to 15 years to eradi- cate. That country is clean now. It broke out again in Montana, and in those days you had to use the naked eye to discover the disease. To-day, as a result of the investigational work done by the bureau _we have a blood test, which we use on about 45,000 samples yearly. Our inspectors take probably an ounce of the blood of those horses to be tested, and the samples come into the Washington laboratory, where inside of 12 hours we can tell whether the animals are infected or not. If we had the old method, we would have to wait until the dis- ease developed clinical symptoms, whereas now we catch most of the cases in the earliest or incipient stage. | Mr. McLaverun of Michigan. Is that the way they test the animal now? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 845 Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLavceuun of Michigan. And you kill the animal if the test discloses the presence of the disease? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir. It usually shows clinically in the genitals of the mares and stallions, sometimes only in the testicles of the horse, but if we have any doubt about the diagnosis, we make a blood test, and if from the blood test we detect the disease, the animal is killed. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Do you make a post-mortem ex- amination to see if your test is verified ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. This test is very similar to the Wasser- mann reaction in syphilis of man. The Cuairman, This is a 50-50 proposition ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. And it is only done by voluntary arrangement? Dr. One. Yes, sir; and we do not pay more than $100 for any animal. The Cuarrman. $100 is paid by the Government or by the two? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; $100 is the maximum paid by ourselves. The Cuarrman. That is, $200 a head? Dr. Moutzr. Some States pay a great deal more. North Dakota pays a very high price in some cases, because they have got a good many pure-bred Percheron horses in North Dakota. The Cuarrman. Is that an arbitrary figure? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir;.it is an arbitrary figure. The Cuarrman, You enter into an agreement? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The CuHarrman. You have no trouble about that ? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; no trouble at all. Of course, we do not have to use that maximum for the mustangs and bronchos; we can get along with from $25 to $40 in the appraisements there. The Cuarrman. What is the next item? , Dr. Mouter. The next item is number 69, on page 60, “For ad- ditional expenses in carrying out the provisions of the. meat-inspec- tion act.of June 30, 1906.” This item is the one that carries a sup- plementary appropriation for the meat-inspection service in addi- tion to the regular appropriation of $3,000,000 provided in the acts of June 30, 1906. What we ask for here is to have the phrase in- serted, “including the purchase of tags, labels, stamps, and certiii- cates printed in course of manufacture,” the idea being to obtain permission to purchase these labels, certificates, tags, and stamps in the open market instead of having to go to the Government Print- ing Office: We have always found it took a great deal of time to get these supplies from the Government Printing Office, and their bid was always higher than the outside bids had been. We think it is desirable to be given the privilege of buying these things in the open market, and the language suggested is identical to that giving similar authority to the Treasury Department for buying like supplies. Ate. Awnperson. What do the words “ printed in course of manu- facture ” mean ? ; Dr. Mouter. Take, for example, the Denison tag which contains the words “U.'S. Retained” or “U.S. Condemned,” for our meat- inspection work. These words are printed on the tags in course of their manufacture. I have never seen them make those tags; bnt 346 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. you know the Denison tag, do you not, Mr. Anderson? We require’ the words “U. S. Retained” to be printed on certain kinds of these tags, and other tags are marked “U. S. Condemned,” and they are all printed in the course of manufacture. They are printed before they put in the eyelets on one end of the tags and before they tie the strings to them. Mr. Rusey. You mean while they are manufacturing these tags, the printing is put in there? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; the printing occurs before the tag is com- pleted, before the eyelet is put in and the serial number given. Mr. McLaveutw of Michigan. Why don’t you make the packers pay for these tags; they are put on their stuff? Dr. Mouurr. Yes; but it is our only means of identification. If we allow the packers to control the retained tags and the condemned tags, it would be the worst thing possible. Those are supplies we want to keep under our own lock and key. Mr. McLaventiin of Michigan. You could have the control of them; they would simply comply with your order. , Dr. Mouter. I think anything that has to do with the retention or condemnation of meat ought to be absolutely in the hands of our pene without any control by the packers in any sense of the word. Mr. McKinzey. How much do these tags cost per year? Dr. Mouter. $5,000 or $6,000. It is a very small amount. This new language is added in view of the difficulty we have in obtaining promptly supplies of this character from the Government Printing ‘Office, which apparently is not properly equipped for this sort of manufacture. The language of recent enactments relative to print- ing, strictly construed, prevents the departments from securing such supplies from any other source than the Government Printing Office, except with the previous consent of the Joint Committee on Print- ing. We have had the consent of the Joint Committee on Printing to get this work done on the outside up to the present time, but what we want to do is to have it in the law so that every time we want $1,000 worth of retained tags, stamps, or labels-we won’t have to go to the Joint Committee on Printing for permission. ; Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Fon much does it cost to get a supply at the printing shops? Dr. Monter. Less than half the cost at the Government Printing Office. They are not fitted up with the machines for putting the eyelets and things of that kind in the tags, like the Denison people and some of these other manufacturers. Mr. McKintey. Is that true of all things? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; not at all. Mr. McKintry. How does it compare with the open market? Dr. Monter. I would not want to say, but I know the open market is cheaper on special lines. Mr. Jacoway. But on this item, if you were allowed to go in the open market, you would save between $2,500 and $3,000? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; we could. . ons Mr. Anverson. I notice you have eliminated some of the language of the bill of last year. The question in my mind is whether the language which is now left is sufficient to cover equine investiga- .. tions? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION -BILL. 347 Dr. Mouter. We have asked for the elimination of that particular phraseology, because we consider it unnecessary. Mr. Anverson. The legislative part of it is unnecessary, but I am afraid there is no authority in the language left to carry on the equine inspection or to pay for equine inspection. Dr. Mouter. This suggestion was brought up by the legal mem- bers of the department, and they considered it merely complicated the accounting and was unnecessary. I do not recall the language in last year’s bill about equine inspection. Mr. Harrison. Perhaps the situation Mr. Anderson has in mind would be met by leaving out the words “ by the act of March 4, 1907.” Mr. Anverson. Or by including the act of last year. Mr. Harrison. The simplest way would be to strike out “by the act of March 4, 1907.” Mr. Anprerson. My impression is that this equine provision you had last year is not specifically indicated as an amendment of the meat-inspection act. But we can go into that matter later on. Mr. Rusey. How many applications have you had for the use of this horse-meat inspection ? Dr. Mouter. We have had about five or six applications. There is one plant now in Cincinnati where we are inspecting horse meat, and they are shipping all their products to Holland. Mr. McLaveuutn of Michigan. It is all shipped abroad, is it not? Dr. Mouter. Most of it; yes, sir. At the present time there are a number of firms that have requested information, and are getting ready to start inspection. The Hudson Bay Co. is inter- ested in two or three plants in the West, and their representatives are now in France, Holland, and Belgium gettings orders for, 1 think, 30,000 pounds a week—quite a large supply. The trouble now is the rate of exchange. That is holding up this business. They are going to see if they can not supply the horse meat from this country and have those countries supply olive oil or other prod- uct laid down to them in New York. They are trying to provide for a system of bartering instead of an outright sale. The rate of oe is stopping this horse-meat business more than anything else. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. That. applies to everything ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Hudson Bay Co. is deeply interested, and they are contracting with plants for this purpose. Mr. Canoter. Horse meat is used only for export; it is not used in this country, at all? Dr. Mouter. It is used a little in this country. They have a Fed- eral plant at Cincinnati, and there are local plants at St. Louis, Milwaukee, Portland, Oreg., etc., where they sell horse meat locally. Mr. Wizson. How do you like it? _ Dr. Mouter. I have eaten some samples of dried beef and Salami sausage, produced in Wisconsin, and I had hoped to be able to bring some samples of them here, but Mr. Chappel, who promised these ‘supplies, is now in France getting orders. ' Mr. Rosey. It might be a good idea to furnish us with some of the meat, and not to let us know what it is until after we have tried it. _ Dr. Mouter. You would not hesitate to eat it after you had tastéd a sample, because it is very good. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Is that Hudson Bay Co. a Cana- dian company ? 348 AGRIGULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. It is the old Hudson Bay Co. of Cooper’s tales. Their head office is at New York City. Mr. Jacoway. What is this horse meat worth a ar Dr. Mouter. In New York, when they were selling it a year or so ago, it was 15 and 18 cents a pound. Horse steaks were selling for 18 cents. is The Cuairman. How does the price compare with other meat? ‘ “i Mouter. At that time it was over 50 per cent cheaper than eet, : The CHairman. How does the price of the horse compare with the price of cattle? Dr. Mouter. I met a number of Montana horsemen at the inter- national convention in Chicago, last week, and they were bemoaning the fact that these horse-meat dealers were not taking their horses; that the horses were in a sleek condition, and they were willing to sell a number of them at $25 a head. They were afraid, if they had to winter them, that next spring they would be very thin, and these horsemen were very much upset about the failure of the exporters to take the horses off their hands. The Cuairman. They have a number of plants slaughtering for local consumption ? , Dr. Mouter. Yes, about five or six; but there is only one (Cin- cinnati) that has Federal inspection. The Cuarrman. There is one in Milwaukee? Dr. Mouter. It is not under Federal inspection. The CuarrMan. Are there any under Federal inspection? Dr. Mouter. In Cincinnati; yes, sir. Mr. Jacoway. Is it not about 200 per cent cheaper than beef? Dr. Mouter. At the time I mention, beef was selling about 40 cents and they were selling horse steaks for 18 cents. Mr. Jacoway. They are not selling here for that. Dr. Mouter. Not here. I am talking about New York City now— Brooklyn. ° Mr. Jacoway. I do not think they were in New York City. I think You are in error about it. Dr. Mouter. I think Mr. Rommel had one of our men go up there, and was not that his report? Mr. Rommen. Yes. Mr. Tincuer. He must have gotten a wholesale price on beef. Dr. Mouter. This was a year or a year and a half ago. This in- spection requirement has been effective only since July, you know, and none of those fellows could have inspection unless they adopted our requirements. This firm in Brooklyn I am speaking of has not met all the requirements. ibe Tincuer. Is there any requirement about the conditon of the horse ? Dr. Moner. Oh, yes. He has to be inspected, antemortem and post-mortem both, the same as the cow, sheep, and hog. Mr. Jacoway. You can not get a steak for 50 cents or a roast for 50 cents here and have not been able to do it in the last year and a half. And, as I understand it, the price here is somewhat parallel to the price in New York City. Dr. Mouter. I have paid as high as 62 cents for a steak here and as low as 40 cents, in the last, year and a half. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 849 Mr. Jacoway. That would make your percentage wrong. You say about 50 per cent; that would be 150 per cent. Dr. Montrr. We are figuring differently. I am using the price of beefsteak as a 100 per cent basis, while you are taking the price of horse steak for your basis of 100 per cent. Mr. Canprer. All this horse méat is required to be stamped? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; with a green branding ink. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. Do you know anything about the whale meat supply and whether it is used in this country ? Dr. Moutuer. No, sir; I do not. The Bureau of Chemistry has been doing some work with the fish foods. We have not been doing any- thing on that at all. The Cuartrman. Is there anything else? Erapication or Foot-anp-Movuru Disrasr. Dr. Mouter. There is only one other item that comes under the Bureau of Animal Industry, and that is the continuation of the in- surance fund for a possible outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease. That is in your bound copy, over in the back of the book. Mr. Harrison. Page 281, item No. 8. Dr. Mounier. Comparatively small sums have been expended in maintaining a vigilant Iookout for symptoms of foot-and-mouth dis- ease among all susceptible animals received at public stock markets. At all the central markets where the disease has existed and in trade channels through which it has been spread in previous outbreaks experienced veterinarians are stationed especially for work under this project. The number of such employees has been increased dur- ing the past year because of the possibility of infection being introduced through the return of American forces and material from allied countries in Europe in which the disease prevails, Extra precautions have been and are being taken because of this possibility. All suspicious cases of disease among susceptible animals anywhere in the United States, which come to the knowledge of the bureau, are promptly investigated. In this connection, I want to say that at the present time there is more foot-and-mouth disease in southern France, Italy, Switzer- land, Belgium, Holland, and England than has existed for the last 15 years. ite McLaveuuin of Michigan. Is there any alarm felt about it in this country; have there been any scares? ; Dr. Mouter. There have been some scares, but investigations have proved them without any foundation. Mr. Purnewu. This is an outgrowth of the war? Dr. Monier. Yes, sir. These outbreaks in England have been accounted for by the sanitary authorities of Great Britain largely as a result of the return of the soldiers from France who bring in the infection. Mr. Purnety. How can they transmit that? Dr. Mouter. They bring it home on their shoes, clothing, gloves, or on souvenirs they pick up around the barnyards, on helmets, and -things of that kind; it is impossible to say what particular thing, but all those things are potential means of carrying the disease from France to England. 850 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. And you are afraid of that?. Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveutuin of Michigdn. Do you know of any cases where the infection has come into this country in that way ? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. : Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. But the men have been back long enough now so that if they brought any of it with them, it would show up by now? Dr. Monuer. Yes. I think the cootie helped as much as anything else in preventing us from having foot-and-mouth virus brought in, because the soldiers were disinfected before they embarked on the other side, their clothing was taken off, disinfected and washed in antiseptic solution, and then when they got on this side they were treated in the same way. I think the fact that they were so well dis- infected to get rid of the cootie, helped us considerably in not hav- ing any outbreak from the virus of the foot-and-mouth disease that might have been carried on their clothing and other materials. _ Mr. Purnety. That is what I mean. What I was trying to ascer- tain was whether or not there was any evidence of that disease; whether you found any evidence of that disease in this country and had traced it to the soldiers. Dr. Mouter. No. There has been no case of foot-and-mouth dis- ease in this country since the last outbreak, which was eradicated in the spring of 1916. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You spoke of the increase in France and England. What is the percentage of increase; has it been large? Dr. Mouter. In the latest French magazines, I see that the min- ister of agriculture of France has pronounced it as an epizootic in southern France, in the Marseille section, and I saw a letter from Sir Stewart Stockman, of Great Britain, a few weeks ago, saying it was quite serious in England on account of the mysterious occurrence of those outbreaks. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. There was some talk when this outbreak of 1916 occurred that it was brought in in hides from Argentina and Venezuela—or where was that? Dr. Mouser. From South America. That:was because the first case occurred in Niles, Mich., not very far from a tannery located in that town; but absolutely no connection could be established between the hides there and the outbreak. Mr. McLaveutrn of Michigan. Have you determined in your own minds where it came from? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. There was no satisfactory explanation. The Cuarrman. What is the amount of the unexpended balance of the two million and a half? Dr. Mouter. About $514,000. Last year we expended about $45,- 000 in looking up these reported cases and in having men at the stockyards looking for this particular trouble. The Cuarrman. How much did you spend of this $1,000,000 last year ? Dr. Mouter. Not a cent. We have not spent any of that in any year since it was included in the bill. The Cuarrman. You draw on that $2,500,000 all the time? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 3851 Dr. Mouter. Yes; and the $1,000,000 is to be spent only in case of an outbreak. That is an insurance fund in case an outbreak oc- curs at some time when Congress is not in session. The Cuarman, At the same time, you spend some money? Dr. Mouter, Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. So that you have spent thus far about $2,000,000 of the $2,500,000? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. That is the only money appropriated ? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; and most of that was used in the purchase of the affected and exposed cattle during the last outbreak four years ago. Mr. Tincuer. You never spent any money better than that? Dr. Mouter. No, sir. The Cuarrman. How much did you spend last year? Dr. Mouter. $45,499.27. That leaves a balance of $514,000 of that original $2,500,000 appropriated about four years ago. The Cuarrman. Is that for the current year? Dr. Moutzr. That is for the fiscal year just past, you know. I mean the last fiscal year; we spent that for the fiscal year 1919. That leaves $514,000 as the balance. The Cuarrman. How much have you spent this year? Dr. Mouter. I do not have an account of that expense with me. There has not been much spent except the salaries of these men at the stockyards and the investigation of two or three scares. The Cuarrman! It will probably be about the same? Dr. Mouter. Probably about the same, unless numerous scares come in. We have to send men a good many miles sometimes when there has been a report of a foot-and-mouth outbreak at some re- mote point. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. Have you a memorandum of the number of men employed on this particular work? Mr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. McLaveuttn of Michigan. Have you in mind how many there are? Dr. Mouter. No; I have not the full data here. We always send our most experienced men. For instance, the last scare we had was a reported outbreak of foot-and-mouth disease in southern Illi- nois. We had an expert in Chicago, so instead of sending a man from the nearest point to southern Illinois, which would have been East St. Louis, we took the expert from Chicago and sent him a couple hundred miles to investigate that report. We think it is better to send a man that extra distance who knows the disease rather than to use a man, only 25 miles away, who has not so much experience. The Cuairman. I take it all your veterinarians are on the lookout for this? Dr. Mouter. Yes; they are. But we have some who are more ex- perienced than others. | Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. The man in Chicago is engaged on the work regularly? Dr. Mouter. Only when an investigation in that zone is required, and all we charge against the foot-and-mouth fund is for his time and trip. The point I am trying to make is the department has a 352 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. man at the East St. Louis stockyards, 25 miles away, but his judg- ment would not have been as good to me as the judgment of the ex- pee man in Chicago, who has gone through all these out- reaks from 1902 on. I always try to get the best judgment of the best man in these cases. The Cuarrman. You do not employ anybody for this service? Dr. Mouter. At all the important stockyards we have one_man employed from this particular fund. The Cuarrman. Only one man employed permanently ? Dr. Mounizr. One man employed permanently at each of the stockyards. The Cuatrman. At how many stockyards? Dr. Mouter. About 27. Mr. Rusey. He does not do this work alone? Dr. Moutuer. Oh, no. Mr. Witson. In this meat-inspection service have you any unex- pended money for the salaries of the meat inspectors that you have not used ? DE Mouuer. Money that was appropriated last year for promo- tions ? Mr. Witson. Yes. Dr. Mouter. No, sir; every penny of that has been used up. Mr. Witson. I am glad to hear that because I think there ought to be something done. I know of some of the meat inspectors, in some of our larger cities, at least, because I hear so much about them, who are practically destitute. , Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. You and Mr. Rainey got every- thing there was. Mr. Witson. We did not get enough. Mr. McLaventutn of Michigan. You got it all nailed down. Mr. Rainey. The whole morning and part of yesterday has been taken up with the discussion of the eradication of tuberculosis in cattle, in sheep, in horses, in hogs. Now, we just ought to stop here for a moment and find out if we can not eradicate a little of the tuberculosis in a few human beings who are working for the Gov- ernment in the Bureau of Animal Industry. Last year, in the general appropriation, this committee allotted $120 increase to the veterinarians and inspectors, but they did not allow it to the clerks, to the girls employed in the department who assist the veterinarians in the various offices scattered through the various stockyards throughout the country. I understand the ruling of the Secretary was they had no appropriation for them and therefore could not allow them an increase. And right on this point, I want to call the at- tention of the doctor and to serve notice on the subcommittee that when the time for it to consider this comes I shall be delighted to ask the privilege of appearing to ask that the clerks be granted the increase of $120. I think there are about 250 clerks; is that correct? Dr. Morter. Two hundred and fifty, about. Mr. Ratney. Who would be entitled to that? That would amount to about $30,000 for human beings, many of them probably with families and large families, to prevent not only tuberculosis in those families but in their children. That is of paramount, importance. That is No. 1. I think the animals are secondary. The second thing I want to call the doctor’s attention to is this, that in the Bureau of AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 853 Animal Industry you have grade No. 1 and grade No. 2 lay inspec- tors. There are a number of those grade No. 2 lay inspectors that receive about $1,500 a year. Is that correct, Doctor? Dr. Moutzr. A very few. Most of them receive only $1.320. ‘Mr. Raney. There are a number that receive $1,500? ‘Dr. Mouser. Yes; there are some. Mr. Rainey. I think there are about 600 grade No. 2 inspectors ‘that reeeive $1,320 a year that have been in the service for over five years. Now, there is dissatisfaction among those men. They are -working alongside of men receiving $1,500 doing the same kind of ‘work, and they are receiving only $1,320. Let me cite a practical illustration. A fellow out in the stockyards by the name of Jack ‘Murphy has been with the Government for 28 years. He is at pres- ‘ent out in the hog department in the stockyards proper. Jack Mur- phy has trained most of the veterinarians and most of the grade 1 ‘inspectors that have been brought into the stockyards. He is a ‘fellow who knows the business thoroughly; he has the confidence of all the men there, and he is only getting $1,320 a year. Now, there is no chance, according to some system or method of procedure of the department, for him to be advanced to $1,500, other than certain marks that they give, a sort of civil-service requirement of efficiency. ‘Now, Jack may not have the intelligence to pass an efficiency exami- ‘nation, but I will say to Dr. Mohler, Mr. Harrison, and Mr. Houston ‘that Jack Murphy can go to any packing house in the country, along- -side of any veterinarian, with the exception of the distinguished ‘Dr. “Mohler here, and Kiernan, and some of the scientific gentlemen ' (‘who T also insist are greatly underpaid), and Jack Murphy can do as efficient work as anybody out in the stockyards, and he is only getting now $1,320 a year. I do not think it is the object or the desire of this committee to appropriate $2,500,000 for the eradication of tuberculosis in cattle and appropriate $1,000,000 for viruses and these other ingredients to ‘prevent this disease in animals and neglect the men carrying on this inspection work. Mr. McLaucuuin of Michigan. He is one of the large number of ‘second-grade inspectors ? Mr. Rainey. Yes. Mr. Wuson. And there are a lot more just like Jack Murphy. Mr. Rarney. Yes. Mr. Wuson. And men with large families. This Jack Murphy ‘you are speaking of raised a large family and raised them well, and they have to struggle to get along. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. Is there not some way, after a certain length of time, and they show their capacity, by which that man can be passed to first grade? Dr. Mouter. Mr. McLaughlin, our grade 2 is really the first grade ‘so far as quality and technical experience are concerned. Jack Murphy is one of a large number, and to promote them all will re- quire a large sum of money, which I would be very glad to see ap- ‘propriated. They were all promoted last July, of course, as a result of the effort of some of the members of the committee, Mr. Rainey and others, but the amount was very small compared with the im- portance of their activities and the increased cost of living. “ Mr. McLaverntin of Michigan. How much? 164315—20-——23 354 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Mouter. $120 per annum. Mr. Rarney. Previous to that they were getting $1,200. Here is the idea: I think after a certain length of time, if a man has been in the department for five years, working alongside of another fel- low getting $1,500 a year, and especially doing the same kind of work, both being capable, they both ought to be entitled to the same salary. If the man’ is not as efficient as the man getting $1,500 a year, then he ought to be discharged. I have called this to the at- tention of Mr. Harrison, and Mr. Harrison said that it takes so much time and red tape to discharge them, and there should be permission given to the department, after they have served a certain apprentice- ship and show ability for this particular kind of work, to pay them the same amount of salary as the man working alongside of them and receiving $1,500. Mr. McLaveutin of Michigan. What is the title of the man work- ing alongside of them and receiving $1,500? Mr. Ratnry. He is grade 2. Dr. Mouter. No; a veterinary inspector. Mr. Jacoway. Won't that be worked out in the work of the Re- classification Commission ? Mr. Ratner. No; the distinction there is, if you delay until the Reclassification Committee takes it up, it will start out on the basis of $1,320, and the fellow would still not have the same opportunity as the fellow getting $1,500. I think it ought to be ironed out and they ought to be put on a par now, and then let the Reclassification Commission handle it altogether. Mr. McLaventin of Michigan. What would be the objection to putting them all on a par? You speak of Mr. Murphy being par- ticularly efficient. Mr. Raryey. I just happened to run across him. Mr. McLaveuuin of Michigan. There are others? Mr. Ratner. A great number. Dr. Monter. That is right. Mr. McLavenurn of Michigan. Who are unusually efficient as compared with the large number that are employed? Why would it not be well. to create another grade and to select those like Mr. Murphy and to put them in that other grade, with a proper.increase in salary, and not to increase them all? Perhaps some of them, a great number of them, do not deserve it as Jack Murphy. does. ' Mr. Raney. The reason I cite Jack Murphy’s case in particular, is that I go out in the stockyards occasionally, and I met this man one day at the stone gate and began to discuss the question of salary with him. He told me the length of time he had been there, about 28 years, and how much he was getting, and then I inquired of others out there about Jack Murphy and his efficiency and found he was considered by a number of men out there as one of the best. men they have. Mr. McLavcuiin of Michigan. It looks to me like there ought to be a regrading and perhaps another class created. Mr. Trncuer. Perhaps a class 2—-A. Mr. Hurcuinson. You say this man, Jack Murphy, taught these veterinary inspectors? : Mr. Rainey. When they first come out of college they are just theorists. AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 355 Mr. Hurcurnson. But they have to go through a course of study ? Mr. Rainey. Oh, yes; I do not wish to disparage the ability of those men. Dr. Montzr. This man is a very good practical man and knows the hog business from a to z, and also all the commission men. You and I could go into the yards and on the first day we would have to be shown by somebody the rules of the game, how the hogs are un- loaded at the docks, how they are brought to the scales, and how purchases are made, and things of that kind. Mr. Hurcutnson. Why could he not go through some school as a man who is given a course of study? : Dr. Montrr. A great number of lay inspectors have done so and become veterinary inspectors. Mr. Jacoway. Can you not work it out along the line suggested by Mr. McLaughlin, of making another grade? Dr. Mouter. We could if we had the money, but we have not the money to do it. Mr. Jacoway. How much more money would it take? Mr. Rainey estimated $30,000. Mr. Raney. That is for the clerks—these girls and men. Mr. Jacoway. About how much would it take? Mr. Ratner. There are 600 men, approximately, who have been in the department for more than five years, receiving only $1,320. To raise them all it would approximate about $140,000; from $140,000 to $150,000. To grade them according to Mr. McLaughlin’s sugges: tion it would not take that much. About $100,000, do you think? Dr. Mouter. That would help a great deal, of course. Mr. McLaveuturn of Michigan. The good man ought to be raised, but in every bunch like that, 600 of them, there are a lot who just travel along with no particular efficiency and who are not deserving of an increase. I believe in giving an increase to those who deserve it, and it might be done by creating another grade, to which these deserving ones can be elevated. ~° Mr. Rarney. Will you work out some suggestion along that line, Doctor, keeping in mind a $100,000 increase? | Dr. Monter. We will see that the deserving men get it if we re- ceive the $100,000. We could establish a subdivision of grade 2. Mr. Wison. Let us know how much it will take, whether it is $100,000 or some other amount. Mr. McLavenuin of Michigan. There are always in a bunch like that some who are efficient and some inefficient workers, and there is a lot of injustice done. Dr. Mouter. There is no question about that. Mr. Jacoway. Who would say they are efficient and ought to be promoted ? . Dr. Mouter. We have to depend solely on the decision of the in- spector in charge where these men are working. Mr. Witson. You have a record of the men? Dr. Mouser. We have a record, and we divide them into classes A,B,C, and D. The class A men are those who should be promoted at once; the B men are those doing good work and should be pro- moted at the average rate; the C men are those fellows who are just getting by; and the class D men are the fellows who should be dis- missed or demoted. 356 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuairman. How many clerks would be affected by the sug- gestion of Mr. Rainey? They are the clerks outside of Washington? Dr. Monter. Yes. They include only the meat-inspection clerks and are about 250 in number. Mr. Hurcuinson. Why draw the line on the meat-inspection clerks? ‘Dr. Mouter. There would be quite a discrimination against the clerks in the tick-eradication service, the hog-cholera work, the virus serum offices, and the other divisions if you did not include them also. Mr. Harrison. The question also arises as to whether it would be desirable to consider only the clerks in the Bureau of Animal Indus- try. There are a number of employees in other branches of the de- partment in essentially the same situation. If you will glance through these estimates you will see that a number of laborers at $540 and $600 a year are provided for. How can they exist, much less live, on such salaries? I do not want the committee to get the impression that the situation to which Mr. Rainey refers exists only in the Bureau of Animal Industry or only in the meat-inspection service of that bureau. If the employees of these branches are to be sR E Sees the employees of other bureaus ought not to be over- ooked. The Cuarrman. How many clerks are employed outside of Wash- ington who would be affected by this? r. Mouter. In the meat-inspection work, there are about 250 that would be covered. n The Cuarrman. Employed at the various markets? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir. The Cuarman. How does that salary compare with the salary paid here in Washington? Dr. Mouter. It is a little bit lower. The Cuarrman. How much lower? Dr. Mouuer. About $200. a The Cuarrman. $200 a month? Dr. Mouter. No; a year. The Cuarrman. And they get the benefit of the bonus? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir; they all get the benefit of the congressional bonus. _ The CHarrman. The same bonus that is paid here? Dr. Monter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. They get about $200 less; why the discrimination? Dr. Montrr. We try to select the outstanding clerks, the best equipped, the highest type field clerks, and bring them into Wash- ington. If we learn of such $1,200 clerks in Mississippi or Texas we try to bring them in here if we can, and naturally we give them a $200 increase if there is such a vacancy. The Cuarrman. Are we to understand these clerks are less efficient than those employed here? Dr. Monter. No; but we have a higher average of efficiency in our Washington offices. I am speaking about the average. We have some very fine clerks in all these outside positions. The Cuarrm4n. You are speaking of the clerks? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The average skill of the clerks here in Washington, due to their more varied and longer experience, is higher than the average of the clerks in the field. That is because, AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 357 as I said before, we try to select the outstanding clerks in the field positions and bring them into Washington if we can get them to come. Some of them prefer to stay in their home towns, and there- fore Be have a number of exceptions to the average I am speak- ing of. The Cuairman. You take into consideration the cost of living? Dr. Mouter. Yes; somewhat. The Cuamrman. They can live cheaper in their homes than by coming to Washington. Dr. Mouuer. We consider there is a much higher living cost in Washigton than on the outside where most of our men are located. The Cuairman. But that would not apply to all the plants in all the cities? It would cost as much to live in Chicago as it does to live in Washington ? ; Mr. Ratner. I do not think so. We can live in Chicago much cheaper. I make that statement because of my experience here for a couple of years. But the distinction of Dr. Mohler about the better caliber of the clerks in Washington, those they can attract to come to Washington, they may come so as to be at the seat of the National Capital, and they are willing to work here for a few years to see Washington and its environments and to get acquainted with its historic spot; while back in Chicago the little boys and girls do not want to leave their home environment and they stay at home and are willing to work back there for $1,200 a year where they would probably have a more lucrative stipend if they came to Washington. Now all we ask is that the efficient clerks out there receive $10 a month increase the same as was granted to the lay inspectors and veterinarians a year ago. The Cuarrman. The doctor says they pay $10 a month less because it costs $10 less a month to live there. Dr. Mou er. That is not the only thing, by any means. The Cuarrman. If that is true, then they are receiving as much as the others, are they not? Dr. Mouusr.’ Probably, considering the difference in the cost of living. We have men who prefer to go back to their homes and take less money. For instance, we had a man not long ago who went back to Chicago and was willing to go for $200 less rather than to stay in the city of Washington. And we had a similar case recently, where the man went back to Philadelphia at a salary of $1,500 when he was getting $1,600 here. The position in Philadelphia only paid $1,500, but he was willing to be reduced $100 in order to get back home. The Crarrman. And you take into consideration the service ren- dered ? : Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. How does the service rendered there compare with the service rendered here? Does the difference in the cost of living here counterbalance the other? Dr. Montzr. The average training of the clerks in our Washington offices is greater than the average training of the clerks in the field, and therefore they ought to be paid more, irrespective of the cost of living. Their responsibilities are greater; they have greater oppor- tunities to show ability than they do in some of the field stations, and it is harder work of a more varied character. 3858 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. The Cuarrman. Then, according to your statement, the increase would not be justifiable? : Dr. Mouter. I want to see them all increased; I think they should all be increased. The Cuarrman. Unless they all are increased, there would be no justification? _ Dr. Mouter. I think it would be an injustice to the clerks in the other divisions of the bureau to have the clerks in the meat-inspection service increased and they be left out. The Cuarrman. I did not catch that. Dr. Moutezr. I say I think it would be an injustice to have the clerks of one division promoted and leave out the clerks in the other divisions—the Dairy Division, the Animal Husbandry Division, the Tuberculosis Eradication Division, etc. All these clerks are on the statutory roll and the clerks in these other divisions can not be cared for from the lump funds as they could if they were professional or technical employees. Mr. Trncuerr. How do the salaries compare with the clerks in the Post Office Department ? Dr. Mouter. I am not familiar with the salaries paid in the Pos Office Department. Mr. Wison. It is less—very much less. The Cuarrman. You make some distinction between the veteri- narians and the other employees you have? Dr. Mouter. Those lay inspectors are technical men, experienced in live stock and the handling of meat. The Cuarrman. They are not veterinarians? Dr. Mouter. No, sir; they are technical lay inspectors. The Cuarrman. They have different salaries? Dr. Mouter. Yes, sir. Mr. Rarney. The veterinarians start in at $1,500? Dr. Moutrr. The veterinarians start in at $1,500. Mr. Rainey. And what is the maximum? Dr. Monter. $3,540, and there is only one man: receiving this maximum. The Cuarrman. And the lay inspectors start in at what? Dr. Monter. At the present time they start in at $1,080. Mr. Rarney. And $1,500 is the maximum. Here is the point I want to develop, alongside of the doctor’s suggestion of these people com- ing to Washington: Ninety per cent of the members of Congress come to Washington for $7,500 a year, where, in their home towns, if they stayed home and applied themselves with half the energy they do to the work of the Government, they would get $25,000, $50,000,and more. I have listened to Congressmen over on the floor of the House who, if they were home, in private practice, represent- ing some private corporation, I dare say, would insist on a retainer of $50,000 a year—easy money. I do not know why it is they come here. It must be a germ—something in the blood. They desire to serve the Government or to be patriotic, or they want power and influence in their community. It is rather difficult to draw the line of demarcation. The Cuarrman. They are volunteers, are they not? Mr. Ratney. A number of them are conscripted ? Mr. Tixcrer. To come to Congress? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 359 Mr. Rainey. Yes. In a great measure it is for political reasons. The Cuairman. Is there anything more, Doctor? Dr. Mouter. Nothing else, thank you. The Cuarrman. Thank you, Dr. Mohler. (Thereupon the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock p. m.) Activities under lump-fund items, Bureau of Animal Industry. : Allotment, | Estimate Projects. 1990.” 1991.’ | Increase. Taspectlon and Epa (a) Eradication of scabies in sheep......-..-----+--.-20beeeeee+ $157, 385 $157,385 |..........-- (b) Eradication of mange (scabies) in cattle and horses. Bacio gisele 57,881 67, 881 $10, 000 (c) Supervision of interstate transportation of live stock and He ata of Southern cattle outside of the quarantine 149, 452 174, 452 25,000 (2 28, 000 285000) |sicrececc-ciarecia ey ee 4,000 4000) | oss:ciercisisieccrnisia (/) 13, 652 137652 |. sovencies (9) 1,500 1,500 (h) Investigation and chemical testing of fips: and aenntiucien 2, 850 2,850 (i) Inspection of animals for importation .. 68, 900 68, 900 ( 2 Quarantine of animals at ports of entry.. 12,900 12, 900 (k) Supervision over the sanitary handling an rol of hides, s other animal by-products, hay, etc., offered for entry. into the United States. lai aida dled atninscrstata sie 14, 780 17,800 3,020 (2) Inspection and testing of anima! foreign coun- : PLES isaac nahn sateen cyajass otercietei nin aus stercyn a h eh ee he ne aoe eae eho a 2, 940 Millet, kursk Bia AD steer aph Saige a circ Sotelo SRA had 1, 850: Milo, yellow__-------__ Bote 350 Natal. $1 aSSieece eee se Se ee ee ee en 960 Rhodes grass. ears Al ie ena Ay A 9 Ss 420 Sorghum: Dakota amber bee = 470: HYr@eds soso ee ee ee ties 50 Orange: ose 5 oso epee ecsSeuee soon a eee ee ets, ed Red amber = 4, 470° Sumac —--_ 2 fey 2, 620 Soy beans: BilOxX ise oie ot eo et ERS RE 2, 623. Beige 25 eo eo os fata 805 EWAN RY GG a a Se pen al wc al ide at i 9, 160: Hahto. TtO Sac eee ee eS Sek She ow ee 4, 200: M. Y ae ey re ens 2, 520: Manchu __ a: = 4, 565 Peking ee 80: Tokio __ = 1, 360: Virginia poeta 5, 000° Wilson 5 8, 140° Sudan grass - 57, 575. Sweet clover: White oe, a _. 1,765 Yellow 30: Velvet beans: Bush 2 oe -.-_ 1,206 Georgia a 100: Ose 9, 675. Total ____ 7 186,575. Packages of new and rare forage-crop seeds distributed on miscellaneous requests, Alfalfa : Dakota 50: Grimm (2-pound) 185 Grimm. (4=pound) 22. ee pon he hee eee 74 FR BUN BOS co ree en i caer i fer pl oh wl hela rt ara as hake «yu ahah anne 330: Peruvian oe Soares aprile ants 34 Clover, Red eee 49- Cowpeas: Brabham aes 189: Early Buff mats 29° Groit wScu 7 Feterita 66 Field beans, Great Northern 9: Field peas, Bangalia 86. Field peas, Carleton 3 64 Field peas, Kaiser os 84 Kafir a 57 Millet, Kursk 44 Milo, yellow te -- 33 Natal grass_____- 29 Rhodes grass__-- - 96 474 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Sorghum: Dakota Amber .-.000 20-2 28 ROO GS asset 2S ot Poet a oe nie a eee Deen a Me a ee 7 FROG AUD GI Seon nn etd pe ang alae ca 4 SUTIN a san eS ah ener kd pth gn cic Sets achat 2, Soybeans: SPY OA Pte eect ct il nets) ge a cease Ve ae as Syne se 83 BNC CY CDrOWi awe oc ee ee ee a 73 EVEN Ye EVN Geo a ae Sn Petal cca fsa al tans aig uh ne neler 99 MED AE Ca ea ain pws oa cag ag ds ga YT Sa ec ci pss 133 STDS UM a SS pc pes eset ot ohh eta hc NB perce Sp Serer 8 AMET TRLO ENA CLL ONY as a es sa pester apf elem gn ww gore 66 AID ANY GN nce oe res vee an rachnee arte amen aM Cah td ag a ha 28 Pekin grower oyu ee ee ean Sah eee eee 7 SILO Otte Steet ep et as tet Di Rha tabs en ate be tay eran d youn nes Mea ktty 14 SV UV N Saw a Sap a ng aga ahh Al oA 13 Wilson 5 Se eeeeeos sees e 49 Sudan grass____ Ass sins eae 587 Sweet clover: White ect ou) eS fk eed Dae eee ee eee aA? 102 WeWOW. 2 225 228 5 oe Se Fe he es ed te ee Be, 11 Velvet beans: Bush i oe Si 170 Georgia - ree V7 SCOOT BA ae po oh ten er A 43 Total __ ea SPS eee 3,179 Quart packages of improvea types of cotton seed distributed through congres- sional cooperation 1918-19. Acala —_ Se pace et haat mee 7, 200 Columbia____ - - 8,775 Dixie oer ss -- 7,600 DUEAN GO. 2S oe ee Sa ee pas 29, 175 HoOMOM=2=2seesese5c5, Soe ey —— 6, 300 N50) 0 ere a eee 26, 225 Meade __-_---_-_----_ pbs epee ON) 2k eee 900 Wuie@s 20 2s-pe eee Shes ee ete Sec eu sce ae eek eee 25, 505 Total s Boa ae eee eek a 111, 680 DISTRIBUTION OF HALF-BUSHEL PACKAGES (16 QUARTS TO HALF-BUSHEL). Acala —__ os ee adie 113 Columbia_--------- a atk, 16 RT eet aeeeee miorei ne wien timid eh uri nnien Ceem een 82 Durango rat eh aes ee 144 Holdon ae Ores oe ee rec re ee oe 3 Lone Star bs 804 Trice iethale lee Desens em te re eS ae eae oo 227 Total es 1, 449 Dr. Tayxtor. In the research paragraph (item 110) we propose material increases for the investigation of these important livestock supporting crops. The first item is an estimated increase of $13,000 to meet the increased costs of labor and materials in the prosecution of the experimental work on forage crops carried on on the existing basis by the various field stations of this bureau. The reason for that is clear, I think, in view of the increased costs of conducting such work. The Cuarrman. What do you propose to add to the list that you are now sending out? AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 475 Dr. Tartor. That is on page 104, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. That is to take the place of the language in 108. Dr. Taytor. Part of it. The Cuarrman. What do you add to it? Dr. Taytor. We add no new language. We merely split the para- graph into two parts. The Cuairuan. How much more money is required ? Dr. Taytor. Our estimate covers $68,000 of new money for the items as they show on page 104. The CHatrMan. Last year you had $139,780 for the two items..- Now you ask for $56,600 for the seed item and $148,480 for the forage crop work. Dr. Tartor. The second and largest item is $30,000 for pasture investigations, especially with reference to the southern coastal plain region. The CuairmMan. You are asking for next year $205,000 for the two items, 109 and 110, for which $139,780 is appropriated this year? Dr. Taytor. Yes; or an increase, including transfers to the statu- tory roll, of $68,000. The largest item in that increase is $30,000 for pasture investigations in the southern coastal plains. The Cuarman. That is new, is it, not? Dr. Taytor. That isnew work. It is work which we have only been able to look at and attack in 2 very incidental way heretofore, and it involves the determination of the forage producing capacity of 75,- 000,000 acres of cut-over land in the South, where an effort is being made to develop an enduring and stable live-stock industry. There are some possibilities of livestock production on the range basis, but, apparently, every live-stock enterprise must have a tilled crop nucleus to tide it through shortages of pasture and range feed. The pasture problem of that region is not solved, and we believe the time has come to undertake investigations along that line. The Cuarrmay. Is this in cooperation with the Bureau of Animal Industry? Dr. Tayvor. Yes, sir. We carry the crop and pasture investi- gations, Mr. Anperson. In what States is this land? Dr. Taytor. This land starts in North Carolina and reaches ane into the eastern part of Texas through the whole coastal plain. Mr. Anperson. If that is true, there must be a very wide varia- tion of soil and climatic conditions. Dr. Taytor. There is a considerable variation in the soil and climatic conditions but not nearly so great as there would be in a straight strip from east to west across the country from North Carolina. Mr. Anverson. My impression is that the Bureau of Animal In- dustry has been carrving on some experiments in the South with a view to determine the possibility of beef production and incidentally solve the problem of forage. What is going to be the difference be- tween the work you are proposing and what they are doing? Dr. Taytor. Our work is the production of crops. Their work is their utilization. Mr. Anperson. When we started out with cattle, then, we got the cart before the horse apparently. 476 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. Dr. Tarnor. In logical order; yes. Mr. Anverson. I know it struck me that way at the time. Is this section of the country settled up now, or is it open and unin- habited ? Dr. Taytor. It is scatteringly settled along the railroads, and in places farming is being attempted—has been attempted here and there. Many efforts have failed. Occasionally one has succeeded. It is a great national asset. It appears to have essential productive- ness, which nobody knows how to materialize or bring through. Mr. Anprrson. I had an impression for some time that the greatest. possibility in increasing the meat supply was in the South, but I do. not just see how we are going to get any results from this investiga- tion. : Dr. Taytor. Beef production, primarily, so far as we know any- thing of beef production, rests on grass or pasture, which is the cheapest feed that grows. The animal does the harvesting. The basic question here is whether the number of cattle that can be carried. on it during the better feed periods of the year can be maintained through the year with forage crops which can be grown on the better soils under modern tillage methods right there in connection with it. Mr. Anpverson. Suppose you find out that you can raise grass down. there, that you can raise enough grass to carry you over your period of scant growth, what are you going to do next? That is an inter- esting problem, and when you solve it what are you going to do. about it? Dr. Taytor. The stockmen of that region, if satisfied that a de- pendable adequate supply of feed can be grown, will, I think, take care of that phase of it. That is our judgment. They are ready waiting. They are investing; they are plunging in experimentation of their own. Some of them have had heavy losses. A few ‘of them appear to be making progress. Mr. Awverson. Are any of the States in which these lands occur making any investigations along this line? Dr. Tayztor. Not adequate investigations. It is a big regional problem. It has been so big that no State has undertaken to tackle it. effectively. Mr. Anperson. If it is simply a question of determining whether grass will grow down there or not, it is not a very big problem, it. strikes me. Dr. Taytor. It is a tremendously big problem in so far as we have knowledge of the dependability and reliability of grasses. Mr. Anperson. Is it a question of the possibility of developing the kinds of grasses that will grow there? Dr. Taytor. Of finding them and getting them there and trying them out and determining whether they will grow. The same is true of other forage plants, particularly the legumes. It is a country in which we have no reason to expect that alfalfa or red clover will succeed at all, but we have reason to believe that there are crops that will succeed there if properly balanced. The next item, $15,000 for red-clover investigations, is one of outstanding importance in view of the progressive decline of red- clover acreage in the Middle Western and Northern States. The figures of acreage and of yield during the last 20 years show a pro- gressive decline, due to trouble in getting stands, trouble in main- AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 477 taining stands, so-called winter killing, some of which probably is actually winter killing and some of which is possibly ascribable to the use of imported seed from the southern European countries like Italy, which is not suited to our colder. climates. Mr. Anprerson. When you say red clover, are all of the clovers that we are familiar with in the northern part of the country in- cluded under red clover ? Dr. Taytor. Yes, both medium and mammoth. The corner stone of our fertility in the Middle West, from the Great Plains eastward, is red clover. It is a difficult problem to attack—so difficult that the States have not attacked it. We believe the time has come when it must be attacked if we are not to witness a gradual decline of soil fertility in our corn and wheat lands, particularly our winter-wheat producing territory, and therefore an increased dependence upon commercial fertilizer. Mr. Anperson. I do not know very :nuch about farming, and may be this is an absurd question, but I had an impression that one of the reasons for the reduction in clover acreage is the increased use of alfalfa and other legumes—cow peas and all that sort of stuff—and the use of corn fodder. In the country with which I am familiar, while we recognize, of course, that clover has great ad- vantages in soil improvement and so forth, it is more or less pre- carious, and always has been, owing to special difficulties. Hence a good many people are siloing their corn, raising cow peas, raising crops of that sort which perhaps are not so precarious. Dr. Tayzor. I think you are right so far as Minnesota and con- siderable portions of Wisconsin are concerned; but your farmers have not experienced the difficulties that the corn-belt farmers of Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, and southern Michigan (which latter is not distinctly corn-belt country), Kentucky, Tennessee, and further east, to a considerable extent in New York and Pennsylvania, have ex- perienced. It is in our judgment a big practical agricultural ques- tion which needs solution. Mr. Anperson. Are you seeking now in this project to ascertain the causes of the decline? Dr. Tayzor. Yes, sir. Mr. Anperson. That is the purpose of this appropriation ? Dr. Taytor. That is the first step, and the next step will be the overcoming of those causes. Mr. Anperson. You might find those causes to be such that it would be disadvantageous to ay to overcome them. Dr. Taytor. If that should develop, then we could stop there and proceed in some other direction with some other crop; but clover fits into the small-grain rotation as no other legume does in the corn belt, and the farmer hardly knows how to get along without clover, except to the extent that he can buy and apply fertilizer, and there is a limit to which he can go in that direction without reducing harmfully the humus content of his soil. The remaining item in the paragraph, for which there is an in- crease, is $10,000 for investigations looking to oe the carry- ing capacity of semiarid range lands. The only probable improve- ment of those ranges with respect to their yield of forage appears to be the discovery and introduction of plants which can be brought 478 AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. from countries having similar conditions. Plants which have shown ability to take hold and persist and spread come mostly from coun- tries possessing similar conditions, and we feel that an effort should be made to determine whether crops can be obtained that will take hold, thrive, endure, and spread in the semiarid range country. The Cuarrman. Has quack grass been tried out in the semiarid regions? , Dr. Taytor. Quack grass is a troublesome pest in certain parts of North Dakota where they want to raise wheat rather than grass. The Cuarrman. Is that in the dry section? Dr. Tartor. Not in the extremely dry section. That is more in the moist spots that get the run-off from the higher ground. The Cuairman. What is your next item? Dr. Tayuor. I believe that completes the list. The CuarrmMan. Item 111, page 105, “for general administrative expenses connected with the above-mentioned lines of investigation.” Dr. Tayxor. There is no change in that, I believe. The congres- sional seed distribution, item 112, page 106, stands as it was last ear. : Mr. Anprrson. Was there any increase last year in that? Dr. Tartor. As it is this year, I should say. The appropriation was increased for this year and the estimate carries the same amount for next year—20,000 vegetable and 2,000 flower packages. It in- creases the allotment a third from last year. That would be the minimum. Of course that would be determined largely by the crop yet to be grown, but we feel that the highest prices for vegetable seeds are past, and that unless there should be a disastrous season in 1920 the quotas could be somewhat increased over those of the current year. The Cuarrman. This amount will be sufficient to provide for the usual allotment? Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. The Cuarrman. Is there anything else? DEMONSTRATIONS ON RECLAMATION Progects. Dr. Taytor. We administer an item for demonstrations on recla- mation projects, page 271, for which no increase is asked. The amount is decreased by the transfer of one clerk to the statutory roll now on this work. That is the demonstration work upon the Government reclamation projects, which carries to the farmers there the results of the work done at the field stations. The Cuarrman. That is on page 271, item 1, “to enable the Sec- retary of Agriculture to encourage and aid in the agricultural de- velopment of the Government reclamation projects.” That comes under your bureau ? Dr. Taytor. Yes, sir. PREVENTION oF Puant-Dusr Expnosions aAnp Fires. Dr. Taytor. That, I believe, is all. There is an item in which the Bureau of Plant Industry is interested, Mr. Chairman, on page 285, paragraph 13, the dust-explosion investigation. The Cuatrman. Does that come under your bureau? \ AGRICULTURE APPROPRIATION BILL. 479 Dr. Taytor. A small portion of it does; $5,000 of the $100,000 esti- mated for would be used by the Bureau of Plant Industry, which does the technical work of the smut-dust determinations, in connec- tion with the experimental work in the Bureau of Chemistry; study- ing the causes of these explosions and devising methods of prevent- ing them. That will be discussed, I assume, in detail by Dr. Alsberg, of the Bureau of Chemistry, which has the larger share in it. I believe that is all, Mr. Chairman. The Cuarrman. Thank you very much, Dr. Taylor. It is now nearly 6 o’clock, we will recess. (Thereupon, at 5.50. o’clock p. m., the committee recessed until to-morrow, Saturday, December 18, at 10 o’clock a. m.) Activities under lump-fund items, Bureau of Plant Industry. aripamenits| abntatsy tones - lotmen’ stimate, | (roman) or Project. 1920, e 1921. eee (italic). Investigations of plant diseases: General laboratory investigations 316,500 | $16,500 |............ 6,000 Bacterial diseases of wheat........... 6, 000 . . Bacterial diseases of corn. . 5, 000 5,000 |. Bacterial wilt of cucurbits 4, 000 4,000 |. Bacterial wilt of tobacco............. 6, 000 6,000 |. Tobacco root-rot and similar diseases , 000 5,000 |. Pathological collections 10, 000 10,000 |....... Plant disease survey... if 24, 520 TOtAl seueersscmarewevenouyssee 62, 020 77,020 Fruit disease investigations: 4 General orchard diseases. ........ 2.22.00. 0. cece cece cece eee eeeees 20, 275 Citrus and subtropical fruit diseases. . oes 15, 260 Grape and small fruit diseases. ............2222.022e ee ee eee eee Orchard spraying experiments...........-...--222--22-22ee eee 8 Fruit rots and spots.......-..- Physiological fruit diseases......_.- Pathological inspection of fruits during Dota sciceoicicidelseis's Deinivetovsieais sa aeanininicranteme detimcerensiles selene 80, 935 Citrus canker eradication): 2:c2ccies caciscsticciccins seep sins ceeisareteasivids 196,320 Investigations in forest pathology: Tiseases of ornamental and shade trees..........-.-----------+- 8, 335 Pathological problems in wood conservation .......-..---.-.---- 17,440 Forest: (ree Gis@ases'..« .